cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 02:16:47 pm

Title: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 02:16:47 pm
I'm aware that making this thread isn't very smart thing to do, considering that most of skilled community (including numerous admins and developers) love those "features". Yet I've started this thread to find out what the rest of unskilled, non duelist part of community think of invisible reach every 2H sword has.

What do you guys think of this. When will time come to finally fix invisible reach and lighting fast lolstab? Or these features will be greatest thing c-rpg has to offer in centuries to come?  )
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: v/onMega on February 01, 2011, 02:20:50 pm
Fix for lolstab:

Pull mouse down while pressing ur assigned block button.

 :shock:
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Krakatit on February 01, 2011, 02:26:04 pm
Thats too complicated! We demand something easier!
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Punisher on February 01, 2011, 02:35:40 pm
Lolstab was removed with the new animation and as far as I know only curved blades have invisible reach, because of their curved model (scimitar, katana, etc).
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 02:46:46 pm
Quote from: v/onMega on February 01, 2011, 02:20:50 pm
Fix for lolstab:

Pull mouse down while pressing ur assigned block button.

 :shock:

Player A using 2H sword.
Player B using polearm.

Distance between two players is 2 meters.

Player A: lolstab
Player B: block

Player A: feint feint slash
Player B: block

Player B: stab
Player A: you missed punk, you don't have lolstab lololol

Player B: slash, overhead, slash
Player A: block, block, block

Player A: lolstab
Player B: dead

Player A: Yo punk I'm skilled in melee don't waste my time yo.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Punisher on February 01, 2011, 03:06:26 pm
How about the polearm stun, it's a lot more gamebreaking than the lolstab, if you get hit once you're dead. The 2H stab is just a thrust attack that can be blocked and does nothing else. So I'll give you the response the devs gave when I asked to nerf the polearm stun:

Quote from: Paul on January 26, 2011, 08:54:09 pm
Deal with it.

And as I already mentioned, the LOLstab (jump-spin-stab that was so popular and cause so much whine before the patch) was fixed with the new animation, so what exactly do you whine about?
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Phyrex on February 01, 2011, 03:07:20 pm
I love these threads and the in-game whine I get after a perfectly executed spinthrust. I'm not gonna pull the learn2play card, as above posters already have.

Spinthrusting(or 'lolstab' for noobs) can be done with every single weapon that has thrust in the game and is not unique to 2-h.

'Lightning fast lolstabs' is the result of the rather poor and last call implamentation of the 2h thrust animation. There used to be a time when spinthrusting required training to perfect and timing and patience to  execute it properly, now days you only need a mouse click and a flick of your wrist to make it perfect.

To fix the speed you need to remove the current animation and get back the much better, smoother native animation. Though I doubt that will happen since the developers are all polearm spammers.


Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 01, 2011, 03:16:45 pm
Well, Phyrex, I wouldn't say spinthrusting is too easy now either. :D

Despite all the "omg op" whines I've only seen maybe, uh... 3-4 people who can actually use spinthrust? None of the whiners can do it properly.

But yeah, the native thrust is better (no insta spinthrusts.)
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 01, 2011, 03:18:47 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 02:46:46 pm
Player A using 2H sword.
Player B using polearm.

Distance between two players is 2 meters.

Player A: lolstab
Player B: block

Player A: feint feint slash
Player B: block

Player B: stab
Player A: you missed punk, you don't have lolstab lololol

Player B: slash, overhead, slash
Player A: block, block, block

Player A: lolstab
Player B: dead

Player A: Yo punk I'm skilled in melee don't waste my time yo.

lol wat.

Learn the rhytm of the combat better, maybe. It's not exactly a well kept secret that you can actually attack back. Also, polearmers can just backpedal and do a side slash to outrange the current thrust.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 03:36:52 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 01, 2011, 03:18:47 pm
lol wat.

Learn the rhytm of the combat better, maybe. It's not exactly a well kept secret that you can actually attack back. Also, polearmers can just backpedal and do a side slash to outrange the current thrust.

Swordmen can do the same. I'm not talking about truly skilled people here, I'm talking about average skilled players. In most cases a player using 2H kills his oponent with lolstab. Also since recent ninja nerf on speed of greatwords most both and less skilled 2H player use longsword. If you're skilled at blocking, feinting and chambering I really don't see a need for best overall 2H sword (long enough and fast).

Phyrex since you're talking about polearms spam, why don't you try it yourself. From what I know fastest polearm which can swing is Iron Staff. Long shield breaking axes are unbalanced which means spamming isn't posible.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 01, 2011, 03:50:17 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 03:36:52 pm
Swordmen can do the same. I'm not talking about truly skilled people here, I'm talking about average skilled players. In most cases a player using 2H kills his oponent with lolstab. Also since recent ninja nerf on speed of greatwords most both and less skilled 2H player use longsword. If you're skilled at blocking, feinting and chambering I really don't see a need for best overall 2H sword (long enough and fast).

Phyrex since you're talking about polearms spam, why don't you try it yourself. From what I know fastest polearm which can swing is Iron Staff. Long shield breaking axes are unbalanced which means spamming isn't posible.

Against average skilled players, a held attack gets the best result. Quickest and safest way to kill someone.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Tai Feng on February 01, 2011, 03:56:29 pm
The way I see it, polearms should be thrust+reach specialists. But polearms (except Pike) get outreached by 2H stab.

The worse thing is that polearms don't have Anime weapons like 2H does (Flamberge). Don't get me started on historicity. Name is historic, stats are like this:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/cloud%20anime/Nerdy_Game-Freak/cloud.jpg

So I propose something for polearms, to slap these lolstabbers - a giant pike:
http://depredators.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/giant-pike.jpg
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 04:01:53 pm
There are average players out there, you know those guys who can block 3 or 4 hits who get easily confused by feint lolstab combo :wink:

Seems to me that you either ackowledge player as skilled if he can block some hits or unskilled if he can't do that.

Skilled: can block till tomorrow, have attack patterns, know how to chamber etc.
Averages: can block some shots, attack randomly, can feint but not very succesful, can't chamber
Noobs: can't block at all (maybe first slash strike), easy to kill, can be killed by holding slash
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 01, 2011, 04:05:45 pm
Well, even skilled players can fall for a held attack they're not expecting. It definitely works vs the "average" players and is infinitely easier to do than a spinthrust combo.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Ganon on February 01, 2011, 05:04:31 pm
I must agree with both, fix the extra range from lolstab and fix polearm stun. They should stun in a similar way to barmace crushtrough, which only works with very high str/ps, hitting the center of the shield and some speed bonus will  help. No more permastunspam pls.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Camaris on February 01, 2011, 06:18:22 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 01, 2011, 02:46:46 pm
Player A using 2H sword.
Player B using polearm.

Distance between two players is 2 meters.

Player A: lolstab
Player B: block

Player A: feint feint slash
Player B: block

Player B: stab
Player A: you missed punk, you don't have lolstab lololol

Player B: slash, overhead, slash
Player A: block, block, block

Player A: lolstab
Player B: dead

Player A: Yo punk I'm skilled in melee don't waste my time yo.

Player A blocked 3 times and evaded 1x
Player B blocked 2 times

=> Player A deserved to win.

In addition: The polearmstun forced him to block very often until he got a chance to attack succesful ;)
=> We should nerf Polearms.

Tbh dont take my answer to serious.
I do think that Polearms and 2-Hand are quite balanced.

If you dont think that way try to play as a 2-Hander vs Oberyn or people with ultrafast spears like Sirstab.... (if you dont block the first thrust of Sirstab you are dead cause you are permastunned)
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Belmont on February 01, 2011, 09:23:09 pm
The new two handed animation, while it removed a decent amount of extra range it also added a ridiculously fast animation. I never understood the problem behind the old stab (aside the damage, which was fixed).

I support a revert.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Tai Feng on February 01, 2011, 11:52:36 pm
Quote from: Belmont on February 01, 2011, 09:23:09 pm
I never understood the problem behind the old stab (aside the damage, which was fixed).

+80 reach
thrusting damage equal to thrusting polearms


(I also don't know what everyone means by 'damage fixed' as I see 30p damage.. not sure how much it was before then, 35?)
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 02, 2011, 01:56:42 am
If I recall correctly, cookies or tears had like 40 pierce damage with stab. Or close enough.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Tai Feng on February 02, 2011, 02:18:25 am
Quote from: Ninja_Khorin on February 02, 2011, 01:56:42 am
If I recall correctly, cookies or tears had like 40 pierce damage with stab. Or close enough.

So now when damage is equal to thrusting-only polearms, with still longer range, it's considered "fixed"? Ok..
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 02, 2011, 06:26:53 am
I use both polearms and two-handed weapons on the same character.

The lolstab is fine, stop complaining about it. I used the Tears prepatch, and frankly, the animation has sorted out the issue with the lolstab.

I mentioned I use polearms, too. Yeah, I can lolstab with them as well. It's the same concept.

Phantom reach is something we might want to look into though. I honestly don't think that scimitars should have a 'wind attack.'
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Fasader on February 02, 2011, 07:28:37 am
Scimitars are curved and the warband engine sees all weapons as straight stick so it hits a bit earlier at longer ranges.

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Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Siiem on February 02, 2011, 08:27:21 am
Speaking of lolstab, it's gone. I've been killed countless of timed by LHB or glavie users backpeddle... when they backpeddle my instinct says "STAAAB" which I do, then when the stab doesn't hit. the pole guy does and overhead and it hits... which makes me go wtf? However the stab is alot faster now then it used to be
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Belmont on February 02, 2011, 11:54:04 am
Quote from: Tai Feng on February 02, 2011, 02:18:25 am
So now when damage is equal to thrusting-only polearms, with still longer range, it's considered "fixed"? Ok..

Indeed, the damage was fixed.
German Greatsword has 30p, Masterwork German has 34p. (Thrust = +? range)
Awlpike has 33p, Masterwork Awlpike has 39p. (Thrust = +19 range)

The extra range was never much of a problem, I wouldn't mind if it was reduced to match the +61 range one handers get. However, the ease of spin thrusting with the new animation IS a problem.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Rumblood on February 02, 2011, 01:57:08 pm
Quote from: Fasader on February 02, 2011, 07:28:37 am
Scimitars are curved and the warband engine sees all weapons as straight stick so it hits a bit earlier at longer ranges.

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Makes sense to me, but it does give it a longer "effective" range as it hits you before it is close enough, and when the graphic portion does reach where you were, you aren't there anymore.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Leshma on February 05, 2011, 09:23:41 pm
German Greatsword used with 1 point of 2H WPF and just 12 AGI has the same swing speed and much faster trust than Great Long Bardiche used with 144 Polearms WPF and 21 AGI. Truth to be told, while using German Greatsword I had 7 PS and with GLB just 6 PS. Slash damage was much better with GLB, mostly because 144 WPF and 9 more slash damage (both weapons are normal). But trust with GG is deadly, one hit kill to guys wearing low armor and two hit to guys using mail. Since lolstab is easily spamable (hey even I can do that :lol:) I conclude that 2H weapons are just a little bit less OP than throwing atm (that char is 7PT thrower, extremely deadly with just 7PT, don't wanna know what is like having 12 PT).

Few of the devs are huge two handed sword aficionados, this couldn't be work of just one guy. For 3 months I'm playing this mod, 2H swords were probably the strongest melee choice and that was always justified with "skill". Dear devs, polearms don't take skill or what?
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Punisher on February 05, 2011, 10:08:57 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 05, 2011, 09:23:41 pm
Few of the devs are huge two handed sword aficionados, this couldn't be work of just one guy. For 3 months I'm playing this mod, 2H swords were probably the strongest melee choice and that was always justified with "skill". Dear devs, polearms don't take skill or what?

Spamming someone to death while they are stunned takes a lot of skill indeed. 2H were nerfed badly (damage, range, speed, new animation) while only the top tier poleaxes got a slight nerf. What exactly are you compaining about? The same you 2shot people with GG, an archer with 6 PS and 1 polearm WPF 1shots me when i wear light armor with Long Hafted Spiked Mace or 2shot with medium armor, the 2nd shot usually can't be avoided because of the stun. And what about Long Hafted Blade, that has same cut damage as the top 2H swords, stun, longer range, faster and ridiculously cheap?

But yes, 2H stab is overpowered, it is so hard to block down then use a right swing (with a 150 lenght weapon it will easily outreach the 2H stab range).

It's funny how as soon as someone complains about 2H it gets nerfed immediately (on top of the current nerfs, barmace and long iron mace are losing crushthrough is the next patch), but if someone complains about polearms the official dev response is "Deal with it". Compared to 2H, Polearms have STUN are cheaper, faster, better range, some of the best price/range/speed/damage combinations in-game (long hafted blade, long hafted spiked mace), very efficient with low WPF, high versatility (you can be spammer, crusher,shieldbreaker, spearman, cav if you add riding, spearman+shield), better for fighting multiple opponents.

If given the opportunity to trade my 2H heirlooms I will switch to polearms as it seems they filled the spot 2H had before the patch, so why not take advantage and enjoy using OP weapons.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Joxer on February 05, 2011, 10:35:19 pm
Also common misconception about 'phantom reach' is that the hits have to hit the players torso. Hitting someones finger tips does full damage too.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 05, 2011, 10:44:01 pm
Quote from: Belmont on February 02, 2011, 11:54:04 am
Standard = Onehand overhead (+0)

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80 - old animation

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50
I, of course, don't believe any of it...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Vexus on February 05, 2011, 11:16:43 pm
Quote from: Elmetiacos on February 05, 2011, 10:44:01 pm
I, of course, don't believe any of it...
(click to show/hide)

And why would you think polearms length is taller near 2h if that wasn't true?

People would complain on polearm length if they didn't lose length from the animations, do you see any complaints on polearm lengths? I don't.

Taleworld solution instead of making poelarm animations better was making them long eventough their thrust still is kinda crap if it's only +19.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Heroin on February 05, 2011, 11:55:30 pm
Quote from: Punisher on February 05, 2011, 10:08:57 pm
STUFF

+

If given the opportunity to trade my 2H heirlooms I will switch to polearms as it seems they filled the spot 2H had before the patch, so why not take advantage and enjoy using OP weapons.

Yup, I agree. I actually switched one of my characters from 2h to polearm already. Pole users were the only class NOT to be nerfed in the latest patch.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 06, 2011, 12:01:28 am
How to beat a 2hander:

Get a healthy amount of athletics.
Get a longish polearm.
Backpedal while you spam side swings.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Ganon on February 06, 2011, 12:03:40 am
Quote from: Xant on February 06, 2011, 12:01:28 am
How to beat a 2hander:

Get a healthy amount of athletics.
Get a longish polearm.
Backpedal while you spam side swings.

I did this vs a 2hander named Xant. Didn't work, i hit him one time then got hit and died :D Do you happen to know this Xant guy ? Either he posts wrong things on the forum or he uses a speedhack.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Banok on February 08, 2011, 02:52:01 am
1h swords have way more invisible reach than 2h's (except for flamberge), ie swords like side sword are ridiculous.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2011, 11:49:15 am
Quote from: Ganon on February 06, 2011, 12:03:40 am
I did this vs a 2hander named Xant. Didn't work, i hit him one time then got hit and died :D Do you happen to know this Xant guy ? Either he posts wrong things on the forum or he uses a speedhack.

Your amount of athletics was not healthy enough, padawan!
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Evgen on February 08, 2011, 05:52:04 pm
I hate 2H lolstabs more then chadz.
Spinstabs really useful only in Native and here you can just spam stabs due to uber stats and almost do not care about bounce (yes, still uber stats in comparison with native balance) while for polearms like different type of pikes it is still the case.
Yes, and do not listen Phyrex, he is one of them. )
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Punisher on February 08, 2011, 06:04:19 pm
If the 2H stab animation gets slowed, what reason is there to play 2H anymore? Polearms already have all the other advantages except the slower stab. They are faster, longer, cheaper, have STUN, a lot more versatile, very efficient with low WPF and the best polearms have bonus dmg vs shield.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Ganon on February 08, 2011, 06:05:48 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 08, 2011, 11:49:15 am
Your amount of athletics was not healthy enough, padawan!

Well my post was semi-serious. Maybe the fact that i was in a lake during that fight has something to do with it. I thought let's try this backpedal thing in water!
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: DrKronic on February 08, 2011, 06:06:25 pm
Quote from: Heroin on February 05, 2011, 11:55:30 pm
Yup, I agree. I actually switched one of my characters from 2h to polearm already. Pole users were the only class NOT to be nerfed in the latest patch.

Namely because u still have heavyish(3 lb+) poleaxes plus great long axes with good speeds so they get the innate weapon stun vs basically every weapon on the server

Combine that with a decent melee build and u can spamstun most guys that play

I know because I just ran polearms on my main

Only my heirlooms brought me to twohand this gen I really should have went lolarm with the heirloom respec, shield usable wpf, innate horserear and spamstun, passblock due to animation problems of lolarms, weapons such as long hafted mace(death fister)

Twohand still has bore mace but I bet that will be fixed due to it being way overused

But really it is lolarm time
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Ganon on February 08, 2011, 06:10:47 pm
Quote from: Punisher on February 08, 2011, 06:04:19 pm
If the 2H stab animation gets slowed, what reason is there to play 2H anymore? Polearms already have all the other advantages except the slower stab. They are faster, longer, cheaper, have STUN, a lot more versatile, very efficient with low WPF and the best polearms have bonus dmg vs shield.

My problem with polearms in that regard is the animation abuse. Once i learn to read the correct swing direction, it will be ok. The stun should also be like crush through, only on some weapons and there should be a chance to stun, not a 100% chance to stun when hitting. This of course together with upping the requirements. (yeah i like to repeat my suggestions, makes them more likely to be seen).

2h will be fine without lolstab. Just remove the phantom reach, makes dueling a 2h annoying and boring, and is just a bug anyway.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 08, 2011, 06:20:45 pm
Phantom reach?? Isn't this just  due to difference in pings? Maybe (in the case of the scimitar) It's just faulty hit boxes but it def spans across to all types of weapons.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Gorath on February 08, 2011, 06:36:12 pm
I've been swapping back and forth between my 2her and my polearm characters.  From this I've decided to redo my 2hers stats when he retires to drop throwing for x-bow for more skill point conversions and such.  Anyways, what I've noticed is that the polearm "stun" really only seems to happen with a select list of weapons, or perhaps I need more than 18 str or 21 agi to make it happen more consistantly.  When I get in fights with such people as goretooth, dexxt, rhuell, john, Man, and so forth I'm not really noticing any noticable polearm stun with the fister or long awlpike, but using an iron staff, long hafted blade or spear I notice it alot more.

Is there some numerical data that influences when, if and how often this effect occurs?  Is it anything we can measure and run tests on?
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: DrKronic on February 08, 2011, 07:29:19 pm
Its based on opposing weapon weight so if your using a light weapon like say a katana(1.3 lb)
about everything will stun u but say a sarranid battle axe(4.5 lb) will do the opposite

That is AFAIK
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Punisher on February 08, 2011, 08:06:12 pm
Quote from: DrKronic on February 08, 2011, 07:29:19 pm
Its based on opposing weapon weight so if your using a light weapon like say a katana(1.3 lb)
about everything will stun u but say a sarranid battle axe(4.5 lb) will do the opposite

That is AFAIK

That's for stunning through block, polearms also have stun on hit, with enough agi polearms like long hafted blade, long hafted spiked mace, glaive will always stun on hit->stunlocked->dead no matter what weapon you are using.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2011, 08:28:45 pm
Quote from: Evgen on February 08, 2011, 05:52:04 pm
and here you can just spam stabs due to uber stats and almost do not care about bounce

You couldn't be more wrong.

After throwers, most of my deaths come from a thrustbounce that leaves me stunned and unable to block. And you get stunned /easy/ with the new animation.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Patricia on February 11, 2011, 11:15:22 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 08, 2011, 08:28:45 pm
You couldn't be more wrong.

After throwers, most of my deaths come from a thrustbounce that leaves me stunned and unable to block. And you get stunned /easy/ with the new animation.

Learn to curve.
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: Xant on February 12, 2011, 01:51:43 am
Quote from: Patricia on February 11, 2011, 11:15:22 pm
Learn to curve.

Curve wut?
Title: Re: LOLstab and phantom reach
Post by: bruce on February 12, 2011, 03:46:43 am
Idk, I switched from my masterwork glaive to a german greatsword (nonheirloomed) this generation, I like both, both have their good sides (and bad sides).

The only adjustment I'd do is put glaive / LHB / etc at 15 str req, really.