cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 04, 2011, 07:53:00 pm

Title: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 04, 2011, 07:53:00 pm: I searched for a few minutes now, but I can't find the thread I've seen a few days ago about ladders on defending site.

Dear balancing team, something needs to be done about that.
It's bad enough that people are placing ladders to stop ladders that are going to the walls, but now people have started blocking the only ways for attackers by placing ladders on this "abbey map"

(click to show/hide)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Attackers needed a long time to climb up and destroy all ladders and after that there wasn't enough time to have a chance of flagcapturing
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Slamz on October 04, 2011, 11:43:47 pm: Hmm, I don't see where that should be a problem. I'm guessing that in most cases, the first guy up the ladder was a peasant with a club who took forever to kill the blocking ladder?

Ladders are not exactly tough and it should only take a few seconds for an average 1H to destroy them if they are in the way -- less time if the first person up is a 2H juicehead gorilla that can kill a ladder in about two whacks.

Plus, that map has a pretty long coastline with a lot of ladders up. I have a hard time believing that the defenders managed to block all routes that quickly. There's an unblocked way up right there in your screenshot.
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 05, 2011, 08:55:20 am: I just took one picture of one ladder blocking the ways up, which doesn't mean it was the only ladder does it? ;)
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Slamz on October 05, 2011, 11:14:08 am: I'd be a lot more tempted to just say "no more ladders in siege, period".

Player built ladders are probably the #1 problem with creating map balance. Siege maps generally have many different ways to attack the walls anyway. Are 3-5 ways in not good enough? Do we really need literally 800 potential points to enter the castle, thanks to deployable ladders?

That map you took the screenshot of is particularly bad. One ladder on the left side and attackers can drop straight on the flag and it's not even that much out of your way versus going to the front gate like you're "supposed" to. Most siege maps are completely trivialized by attacker ladders.

Defender ladders are one of the few ways to even keep it interesting anymore.
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Camaris on October 05, 2011, 11:42:24 am: Blocking walls with ladder so attackers cant place their ladders is bug abuse.
At least one admin (i guess it was randomdude) said this.
Problem is that admins dont seem to have talked about this so every admin is thinking in another way about it.

To siege equipment:
- Ladders were forbidden for defenders for a long time and it worked well.
- CSites were bugged and forbidden and it worked well

=> allow such things again only for attackers and everything will be fine.
If some maps become imbalanced people should rather ask for changes on that maps
then placing 10000 ladders siege shields and cs everywhere.

PS: MAKE EU2 80 SLOTS!!! DOOO IT!!!
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Joelturuz on October 05, 2011, 11:49:37 am: Having the attackers make a ladder to an unreachable spot and build on from there was one quite a nasty problem when defenders couldn't make any ladders, hence now they have ladders.
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Camaris on October 05, 2011, 11:57:55 am: Quote from: Joelturuz on October 05, 2011, 11:49:37 am
Having the attackers make a ladder to an unreachable spot and build on from there was one quite a nasty problem when defenders couldn't make any ladders, hence now they have ladders.

Its more a problem of the map if attackers can make useful ladders to places where defenders cant go.
My map Winter_Castle had this problem in some versions but i adjusted it and everything was fine then.
If mappers dont care about such problems they dont deserve their maps to be on the server.
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on October 05, 2011, 12:43:19 pm: Quote from: Slamz on October 05, 2011, 11:14:08 am
Player built ladders are probably the #1 problem with creating map balance. Siege maps generally have many different ways to attack the walls anyway. Are 3-5 ways in not good enough? Do we really need literally 800 potential points to enter the castle, thanks to deployable ladders?

you need ladders because you can create entrypoints in better conditions.

as attackers use ladders, defenders use weapon racks to quickly fill the csite/siegeshield/ladder max amount near the flag.
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Tomas on October 05, 2011, 01:01:12 pm: Personally, i'd love to see one of the EU siege servers go more like Strat.

- 80 slots, a 10 min timer and banner balance
- Small Castles only so that defeners don't get spread too thin
- No preset entry points so attackers and defenders have to analyse weak spots themselves
- Weapon Racks already set up at spawn so people can respec without dying
- Slightly reduced construction material requirements to speed building catapults and siege towers up
- Flag in a sensible place and not overlooked by lots of towers

EDIT: possible addition
- All areas of the castle accesible to defenders without ladders so that defenders don't need them
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on October 05, 2011, 04:58:04 pm: Quote from: Tomas on October 05, 2011, 01:01:12 pm
Personally, i'd love to see one of the EU siege servers go more like Strat.

- 80 slots, a 10 min timer and banner balance
- Small Castles only so that defeners don't get spread too thin
- No preset entry points so attackers and defenders have to analyse weak spots themselves
- Weapon Racks already set up at spawn so people can respec without dying
- Slightly reduced construction material requirements to speed building catapults and siege towers up
- Flag in a sensible place and not overlooked by lots of towers

EDIT: possible addition
- All areas of the castle accesible to defenders without ladders so that defenders don't need them

if you have weapon racks just set why you need already accessible places? you have all the ladders you need...
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 05, 2011, 07:03:31 pm: If this is considered normal than I don't wanna know what's not normal for some guys here :rolleyes:

(click to show/hide)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

And no, you can still defend castles without placing tons of consites and ladders. It's very easy: teamplay, skill and learn how to play :)

Please dear devs, balancers or whatever, make this bannable. There was an admin on the server and the only thing he could do was warning/kicking etc those guys who brought only ladders and no weapons :rolleyes:
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Slamz on October 05, 2011, 11:25:26 pm: Quote from: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 05, 2011, 07:03:31 pm
And no, you can still defend castles without placing tons of consites and ladders. It's very easy: teamplay, skill and learn how to play :)
Devs already took off a minute from the siege maps because defenders were losing way too often.

After attackers have placed their ladder bridge straight to the flag, it's really their 3 second respawn + 15 second run versus the defender's 30 second respawn. If skill is equal on both sides, defenders will lose.

Yes you can run out and kill the ladders but again it's your 30 second respawn to go out and do this versus their 3 second respawn to replace the ladder.

I like the idea someone had of making Siege work like strategus battles. It might help balance strategus at the same time.
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 06, 2011, 12:56:05 am: Maybe a good think to test would be raising the attackerspawntime from 3 to 5 or 7 seconds?

Might be more balanced then.

Hey balanceteam, give it a try :)
Title: Re: No ladders for defenders!
Post by: Slamz on October 06, 2011, 12:22:30 pm: I'd agree with that. --^

Or try tweaking down defender spawn time.

Ideally these variables should be saved per map, too. Like the map designer can say "30 second defender respawn, 3 second attacker respawn" but upon seeing that defenders always lose, they can go back and set it to 20 seconds / 5 seconds and try that, as an alternative to trying to redo the physical map.