cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Izual on September 26, 2011, 06:13:05 pm
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Howdee!
With around 30 hours played in Siege mode in cRPG (most common nick: Kaede_Nagawara), I'm still quite a beginner. However, I managed to see what siege mode was, what it was not, and what it should be (IMO). I'll explain how, just read below!
I. What Siege is:
Roughly, a short battle with an unidentified goal. Unidentified? Yes, because it's mostly a team deathmatch, and no one really cares about the flag. There is no goal such as "break inside the castle", because castle is already quite opened at the beginning of a round. Weak doors, low walls... Doors opened by anyone, anytime. If you ever played Siege cleverly, then you certainly noticed that defenders do not care too much about the flag. Teamplay (outside of fights) is almost nowhere. The only time in a Siege where you CAN have some teamplay is when you protect a teammate that is breaking a door. Outside of this particular situation, it is not needed.
II. What Siege should be (still IMO):
A long battle, with different steps clearly identified:
1) Battle on the walls: this is all about preventing the enemy from stepping on the wall and inside the city. Right now, this is a step that lasts maximum 30 seconds. In a siege, it should be way longer, right? I mean, right now it is not a step, just a, err, a detail. Entering the enemy castle it not a problem at all! Well, it should be a big problem, right?
2) Battle in the castle: When the enemy has stepped on the walls/broke the doors and you can't prevent him to come in the city, you struggle in the city itself to slow him down.
3) Battle near the flag: Last hope of the defenders, this last step is commonly known as "CAMP FLAAAAAAAAAAAG!!!!11". This is where you bravely hold your line in front of the enemy rushing through the city!
Right now, it's like this: Step 1 (if at all) is lasting 30 seconds, step 2 20 seconds, step 3 can be longer, but is not often. The rest of the time, a "siege" round is something between all these steps, with no attacks, push backs, retreats or anything, just... Hell, I spawned here, gotta kill the nearest enemy! Not only there are no real "steps" (one ladder on the wall and it's over for step 1), but what is instead is just indescribable.
I'd like Siege to be a long battle, with heroic actions, enemies counter-attacking and retreating, and unbreakable castles. How? Let's read further!
III. How can we do that?
So this is where the suggestions really come. These are small changes easily doable, I'm not suggesting a huge overhaul of the game!
a) Extend time for a round from ~5 minutes to ~15 minutes (or even 20, hell yeah! Depending on the castle, ofc.)
b) Reduce ladders health drastically. In every round there is a siege tower anyway. A successful ladder is a unseen ladder. (Or else, you're flooded with them).
c) Don't allow defenders to open the main castle doors.
d) Increase a bit main doors' health.
e) Increase time needed to open a door (not close it) a lot! It's not just a matter of opening it, these are protected doors damnit!
f) Increase time needed to open a door with the chain handle a lot!
g) If possible, change spawn points so that defenders first spawn on the walls, then when flag went down once, they spawn all around the city (and thus near the flag).
h) Reduce time needed to drop a ladder.
If we're granted all these things, we shall have a decent - and real - siege mode. Hurray!
For further reading, I found this interesting topic (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,15351.0.html). I don't think, however, spawn delay should be modified.
Post-scriptum: sorry for my not-always-correct English. I'm not an English native!
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Linking another kind of relevant thread about siege: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16378.0.html
In my opinion, sieges need to be less like sieges and more like Conquest. Strategic locations with capturable/recapturable spawns (One can dream), and longer rounds.
Your suggestions are not bad, but I'm not sure "simply" making everything last longer will be more fun.
G: We have been asking for them to remove the current siege spawn script, so far no go.
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Linking another kind of relevant thread about siege: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16378.0.html
In my opinion, sieges need to be less like sieges and more like Conquest. Strategic locations with capturable/recapturable spawns (One can dream), and longer rounds.
Your suggestions are not bad, but I'm not sure "simply" making everything last longer will be more fun.
G: We have been asking for them to remove the current siege spawn script, so far no go.
I agree. Siege should be multi-round map-stage similar to some of the TF2 payload maps.
Siege objectives
1: surround the castle with siege equipment
2: Secure gatehouse
3: Secure courtyard & keep gates
4: Secure inner keep w/flag
Most of the inside maps were pretty horrible but I would love more indoor fighting.
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while I agree that siege needs an overhaul, I don't think any of us has the time to do it. i've once tried to understand the code that TW uses to define the spawn point in siege - nasty, I can tell you that.
Maybe you have more luck with cmp :P
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CMP... the same guy who introduced almost 1000 coding errors in one patch? :lol:
I think someone even quoted that in a signature around here somewhere.
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Coding is harder than everyone thinks. Especially with the incredibly inefficient warband engine.
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Coding is harder than everyone thinks. Especially with the incredibly inefficient warband engine.
Hence why I will stick to writing scripts for the Total War series, at least there you can tell what the hell is going on.
Tried opening up and delving into the Warband... it confused the utter hell out of me after just an hour or two.
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Any1 whos played siege knows how frustrating it is when defenders (and sometimes attackers) dont bother with the flag.
Defending/taking the flag IS an objective - a very easy to understand objective that many players fail to grasp or probably dont care much about.
A more extended siege mode could be nice (i was reminded of the sp sieges when i read your post) but if there's a choice between defending an objective and running off to gank 1 guy then where do you think people are gonna go?
If there could be a TDM/DM server for crpg made then i think it will do siege servers a world of good.
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lets make TDM
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Thanks for answers everyone! Especially devs, nice to hear from you!
Your suggestions are not bad, but I'm not sure "simply" making everything last longer will be more fun.
It would, because it would give time to defenders to use tactics (that is, to go to the place where they are the most needed/useful) even after respawn.
Defending/taking the flag IS an objective - a very easy to understand objective that many players fail to grasp or probably dont care much about.
This is what I'm saying in first post: it is indeed an objective, but unidentified - nobody cares about it!
Edit: Also, absolutely agreeing about DM/TDM. Right now people go in Siege because they don't want to wait 5 minutes to respawn in Battle... Not because they want to achieve a goal.
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Hence why I will stick to writing scripts for the Total War series, at least there you can tell what the hell is going on.
Tried opening up and delving into the Warband... it confused the utter hell out of me after just an hour or two.
Gotta give TW series credit for making modding so much easier for the players. :P
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Thanks for answers everyone! Especially devs, nice to hear from you!
It would, because it would give time to defenders to use tactics (that is, to go to the place where they are the most needed/useful) even after respawn.
This is what I'm saying in first post: it is indeed an objective, but unidentified - nobody cares about it!
Edit: Also, absolutely agreeing about DM/TDM. Right now people go in Siege because they don't want to wait 5 minutes to respawn in Battle... Not because they want to achieve a goal.
I dont know why it's unidentified as the entire crux of the game mode revolves around the flag or am I missing something you mean
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I dont know why it's unidentified as the entire crux of the game mode revolves around the flag or am I missing something you mean
I do identify it :) And many do. But most of the players, as you said, prefer to hunt down the enemy rather than protect the castle. That's why I'm saying it's unidentified.
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Half the time it's less the players not giving a damn about the flag and the horrible spawns that are about as far from the two main areas of combat in most maps (The walls and the flag.) as possible for defenders. I say that a command point gamemode would be a rather interesting idea, and if at all possible would be an interesting thing to play.
Is it possible to port the Strat seige gameplay into standard CRPG? Because that'd be an interesting mix of Capturing the spawnflags, and reducing spawns to the defender's team 'till you only have one flag left, the one that is the objective.