cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Greziz on September 24, 2011, 02:23:22 am
-
Now I know you all have said you planned to do small changes but. I believe the Long dagger is way under loved. It was the trustee tin can coup de grace machine of every knight.
In short I believe this change would make the long dagger a viable choice as a 0 slot weapon over the Hammer which is the supreme 0 slotter currently. With this dagger you would be giving up your ability to block but put out a slightly harder hit if you stabbed.
I know you could equip this with a shield but the dagger whiffs like mad because it is so short and equipping a shield with it makes this thing feel much weaker.
Even if this change goes through I feel like it will still be very rare to see. I wouldn't even mind a increase in item price.
-
if there is a worry about dagger shield combo... well you could make it so that any wep that cannot block cannot be used with a shield.
-
Bump.
-
if there is a worry about dagger shield combo... well you could make it so that any wep that cannot block cannot be used with a shield.
Agreed. This would also make it a good alternative. Hammer for blunt and block, long dagger for damage, speed but no block.
-
Bump. FOR GREAT BALANCE!
-
I agree with the pierce damage buff. Not sure about cut.
-
AS said again, the Long dagger is already pretty good with his price.
You can add a "Long silver dagger" with thoses stats and at 1 500 gold maybe, but that's another suggestion.
Seriously, a 360 gold weapon, available with a shield, with 28p ? And 26c ? And 112 speed ? Talk about a spamming weapon that doesn't bounce...
-
Long dagger doing more pierce damage than a spear? I think not...
-
Try using the long dagger the weapon bounces more than any other weapon you will use due to its length also it isn't spammable because it weighs .3 lbs I promise if your opponent blocks he can attack back regardless of your goofy agi build.
-
could always add a stiletto or something... with like 55-60 length 110 or so speed 18cut and 32 pierce... or something like that.
-
I would jizz my pantz for a DIRK or Stilleto of that length. I would definintly ask they refund my long dagger looms so I could make it one of those though
-
bump.
-
I would jizz my pantz for a DIRK or Stilleto of that length. I would definintly ask they refund my long dagger looms so I could make it one of those though
That's maybe why they won't add the Stilleto : since they're fed up of all the loom refunds. Wich will never happened.
-
Well thats one reason I would rather just see the long dagger buffed it is nothing more than a simple stat change to give a dagger some good ninja rogue use.
-
I agree with the pierce damage buff. Not sure about cut.
-
Vote yes so this will get looked at by devs. They say they will look at the item and have a vote with their 5 man if enough vote and it is above 50. THIS GAME NEEDS A ROGUE DAGGER. also they never said it would be the buff I suggested just that they will look it over.
-
All daggers should be 2h weapons (no shield), 1-directional with a special backstab animation.
-
i said somwhere else, but i realy think it would be cool if it would be added
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
should be held so that edge goes out opposite way than other weps (as if it had -length)
10,000 gold
40 pierce
0 length (fist range)
only overhead
no block
and yes, i know thread isnt about daggers
maybe not 40 p :oops:
-
Cmon I want 9 more votes. I want 100 voters to have weighed in. get your friends to vote lets get 100!
-
JUST 4 MORE!
-
I say yes ... but also raise the price a lot.
Or make another "higher version" of the long dagger and leave this one as it is.
-
Yay Finnally 100 plus votes ^.^
-
Pretty solid yes on the change. Has this been changed for the next patch??
-
Hi! I've made an alt just for Long Dagger experiments. :) Going to have 10 WM and 10 athletics, 3 PS.
I got a few pretty good kills last night, and there's probably no better weapon in the game for practicing chamberblocking.
I'm not sure if a stat boost is really what the weapon needs in order to come into its own - especially when it comes to the cutting damage. The long dagger's not about being a shredding machine, there are other knives for that. In fact, I think it might be great to get rid of side attacks with the long dagger altogether, so that you can only overhead and thrust - like some polearms.
Even with only 3 PS, what was the most annoying thing playing (up to level 15 now I think) was how often, in a frantic, nose-to-nose melee, because I was using my mouse to keep turned in the right direction with my opponent, I couldn't thrust very often, and I ended up with lots of ineffectual side-swings instead. Maybe I just suck, or maybe that's a problem you've had too? Just a thought.
Maybe it's my fault for not using movement-to-attack, instead of mouse-to-attack, but...just can't make that transition at this point. Been playing too long. :P
Bye!
-
The left and right swings are useful for chambering with the long dagger, so I can't see getting rid of those to be honest. As a matter of fact, I don't think the speed or even really cut on this needs to be changed, just give it a good boost in the stab department and it'll be plenty useable.
-
I was assuming it would lose its edge on chambering in exchange for an edge in up-close damage. Speaking as someone who's playing a pure Long Dagger character, that would make more of a difference to how effective I can be with the weapon. Maybe I'm just not good enough at chambering, but even when I do, my strike rarely counts for anything in terms of damage. For me it would be better to just run in, stab a few times, then run right back out. The overhead would be there in case I get stuck in a melee and need to switch things up.
In any case, another problem is that it seems like, if I'm right up against someone, my thrusts and swings don't go through? It's like hitting a wall, it just bounces straight off.
-
Unless there's some unbalancing reason why this is horrible, after playing with the long dagger quite a bit, I think the best possible change for it would be to take away its swings (left right and overhead) leaving only the thrust, like a pike or long spear, but give it the ability to block.
The swings are useless against anything but archers and they're an even shorter range than the thrust, yet because of hit detection if you're right up against someone you rarely make a complete attack; instead you bounce, you're delayed, and it's all over. As far as I can tell, the chambers aren't going to count for anything, since they don't slow down your opponent's next swing and they won't hit him, or even do appreciable damage if they do connect. The main problem with any other kind of change being used to make the long dagger viable, is the fact that the hit detection is so bad at the close-ranges you MUST fight at with this weapon.
The only way to do very well with a weapon this short, with no blocking, if you're going to melee instead of play pure support, would be to either get a shield, tons of PS and facehug despite the collision detection, or become a glancing and feinting maniac of epic skills.
I'll just keep playing support though. :P
-
If you take away the swing, LD will be USELESS.Why?Because the enemy will know he needs to do nothing but downblock this tiny weener.Downblock, backpedal, slash, downblock, backpedal, slash.Almost impossible to kill anyone good with the dagger then.
-
Same could be said about spears, but they do all right with footwork. Dagger would be faster than spears but require better footwork because of length. Seems like a good, balanced trade-off, especially when you consider that the swings are already pretty useless and being able to block would be much better than being just slightly faster with attempted chambers.
-
I like to imagine I should be stabbing on the left rights and overheads as well and that it is absurd I am slashing. Any ways I play my dagger weilder with 9 powerstrike and 5 athletics and I find hitting with a left or right is still barely wounding people in 12 or so lbs of armor I just feel like a small stat increase across the board except for speed is in order. and a goofy 3 powerstrike dagger wielder is just not a threat to anyone paying attention as you could easily be brought down by a single stray arrow of almost anytype and your stabs even to the faces would rarely every do any meaningful damage. I have played a pure dagger character more than any one I know I have a fully heirloomed dagger and I have spent entire generations perfecting my daggery craft.
-
Hi Greziz, thanks for the build advice!
I don't think that a long dagger build with 9/10 WM and 10 Athletics is necessarily goofy, if the thrusts are aimed at the head, once you factor in the speed bonus to damage. I'm only level 18 now and the main things keeping my k:d down are the facts that close-range attacks bounce off and that it's really hard to throw a thrust instead of a swing in a tight, turning fight. As for not doing any damage with 3 PS, I've been told that, with 6 Athletics and something like 140 WPF, my running stab to the a 40+ armor helmet will take nearly half of someone's health. I've had several two-hit kills from facestabs and a couple of one-hit kills, though of course I can't know how wounded they were.
In any case, it sounds like you don't think the swings are very good too. I don't think the chambers that they enable are very useful either. Is there anyone out there playing a dagger build who credits the chambers or swings with doing much for them? If not, why keep them? Maybe there should be just one high speed, all-thrust, low-range weapon, and maybe the long dagger is right for that.
It would be different if the long dagger's swings had pierce damage instead of cut, though. But there would still be the problem of the swings being a shorter range and "bouncier" than the thrust.
For now, I have much better with the wakizashi and military pick.
-
Voted no unless DAGGER gets a buff as well.
ATM the Long Dagger is better in nearly everyway!
-
Fuck no! Giving it block would just ruin it.
But I get what your saying with doing swings when you wanna stab. But not being able to chamber sideswings are annoying, but giving it blocks would ruin all the fun of the knifefight.
What about this instead:
Give it an alternative mode with the exact same stats, but only stab. Then you can switch between "knife fight" and "stab" mode. You might increase the stab in the secound mode, but personally I say they should be the same.
-
I survived and get most of my kills with the sideswings and chambers. Rarely am I able to sneak up in a reasonable amount of time for a knife stab. I prefer to be a useful team member so I crossbow and when I am engaged que knife fight music cause it is quote "On like donkey kong in a three piece thong!"
-
Buff thrust, nerf cut.
27p
21c
-
A secondary mode with stab only is a great idea! :) I like that much better than what I came up with. :P
Maybe the other daggers could get something like that too, to keep things fair.
Greziz, maybe this isn't the right thread for it, but I'd be very interested to hear more about your method that gets so many kills with chambers and sideswings. I don't chamber very often - I'm not very good at it, getting better - but when I do, it doesn't seem to give me an edge apart from having another moment to move-in closer. And my sidewings just bounce off and "freeze" my ability to attack - is that whiffing from low PS, or is it because of a hit-detection problem? It slows me down about as much getting blocked outright, which is almost always fatal itself.
In any case, a secondary mode with stab-only - or stab and overheard only if that's not unbalancing - would be great for me, but if it wouldn't be useful for anybody else I guess there's no chance of it. :P
Bye!
-
A secondary mode with stab only is a great idea! :) I like that much better than what I came up with. :P
Maybe the other daggers could get something like that too, to keep things fair.
Greziz, maybe this isn't the right thread for it, but I'd be very interested to hear more about your method that gets so many kills with chambers and sideswings. I don't chamber very often - I'm not very good at it, getting better - but when I do, it doesn't seem to give me an edge apart from having another moment to move-in closer. And my sidewings just bounce off and "freeze" my ability to attack - is that whiffing from low PS, or is it because of a hit-detection problem? It slows me down about as much getting blocked outright, which is almost always fatal itself.
In any case, a secondary mode with stab-only - or stab and overheard only if that's not unbalancing - would be great for me, but if it wouldn't be useful for anybody else I guess there's no chance of it. :P
Bye!
Since I came up with it, I obviously also want the alternate stab only. Make a new suggestion thread where you explain what and why you want it.
-
With the super shitty cut damage you need alot of extra powerstrike to make the side swing chambers not bounce and a little luck as even with a proper chamber you could hit him with your hilt which is almost as big as your hit box or your opponent could be at the end or start of your incredibly small arc. I get the extra power strike so that when I hit I hit like a truck and the sudden whopping loss of hp tends to cause opponents to panic block which causes them to make even more mistakes. Overall I don't think a plain long dagger is able to make use of the side swings anymore I am barely able to make use of them versus chain mailed targets with 9 powerstrike and a triple loomed dagger. I feel like it needs a cut damage to help get the side swings to atleast cause glancing hits that stumble a nick a cut anything because you cant block and if your attack lands helplessly you are screwed you cant chamber so soon after a bounce. The cut damage would help the people land meaningful hits that they have worked so hard to get with a dagger.
I spent alot of time with the dagger to train myself to chamber as it was my only option.
Note the voting ends tomorrow thank you for the 120 possibly more votes I hope this does get looked at and gets some form of meaningful buff. I have noticed that the long dagger has been nerfed 3 times in a row when they were blanket nerfing 1handed sword class weapons which the dagger falls into for some reason this weapon used to be the stats I suggested bumping it to.
-
I was just wondering but did this request get enough votes to be looked at chadz and crew?
-
I was just wondering but did this request get enough votes to be looked at chadz and crew?
76 + 45 = 121. Yup, it sould be looked at by DonkAY Crew. Dunno if we are gonna see the results or reasons as to not do it.
-
I would feel very good to have a dev say if they have looked it over and had a verdict on it with maybe a small reason. or that they are looking at it etc ^.^
-
Bump I am still curious if the devs have seen this had a verdict or anything just let me know if making this suggestion was a waste or if it was looked at and declared 1 way or another.
-
I would really love daggers to be viable weapons like they were irl, i mean point blank they would be way more effective than big weapons. but not sure it can be properly done without remaking whole combat system.
reduce speed, inc damage, make them able to block 1h weapons would be great.
stab only sounds like an awful idea to me because then you cannot chamber swings?!
-
I would really love daggers to be viable weapons like they were irl, i mean point blank they would be way more effective than big weapons. but not sure it can be properly done without remaking whole combat system.
reduce speed, inc damage, make them able to block 1h weapons would be great.
stab only sounds like an awful idea to me because then you cannot chamber swings?!
pssst, check my earlier suggestion!
-
Bump for info regarding whether the admins have seen and had any discussion or thought on this. I left the poll up for almost a straight month and got plenty of votes I am just curious if any decision was made or any thought given to this.
-
By the way, speed bonus is related to the weapon swing speed, so a 112(?) speed weapon will recieve a lot less bonus than, e.g lances. That's why daggers should receive increased damage. As mentioned, the pathetic reach often results in glancing blows, so a buff would hardly make them too powerful.
-
By the way, speed bonus is related to the weapon swing speed, so a 112(?) speed weapon will recieve a lot less bonus than, e.g lances. That's why daggers should receive increased damage. As mentioned, the pathetic reach often results in glancing blows, so a buff would hardly make them too powerful.
Besides. If they get close enough to stab you with a dagger they DESERVE to get that stab in!