cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Senni__Ti on September 18, 2011, 03:49:30 am

Title: Range looms
Post by: Senni__Ti on September 18, 2011, 03:49:30 am
This suggestion was pre recent patch, may no longer be needed


Just a suggestion to change the values for the looms of range weapons excluding throwing. At the moment there is a pretty big difference between archers + crossbowers with loomed items (bolts/arrows and main range weapon) and those without those looms; much larger than the difference between meleers for example, as crossbowers and archers can loom their weapon effectively 6 times and the increase in stats of the weapons by heirlooms seems to be too great.

For example:

Rus bow gets the following increases in stats from looming:

|Damage|M speed|Accuracy| (put in the new values)
29 28  |  37 39 |  101 100 |
30 29  |  38 40 |  101 100 |
31 30  |  39 41 |  102 101 |
32 31  |  40 42 |  103 102 |

(as you can see the increase in stats is pretty similar to before, no idea if the difference is still large between loomed and non loomed in terms of damage or ease of hitting target)

and if my interpretation of game mechanics is correct the speed increase gives a 16% increase alone (40^1.9/37^1.9), not counting the damage increase (which is a 10% increase). Again if my interpretation is correct then the rough increase in damage from fully looming your bow is 28% (32*1.16/29). lso the accuracy increase though it appears to be small, seems to have a reasonable affect on reticule size.The speed increase also allows targets to be hit more easily, as it gives the target less time to move out the way and gives the arrow a straighter trajectory. The combination of these increases I feel is too much and negates player skill more than it should, giving players with loomed bows too much of an advantage over players with non loomed ones.
Because I am a maths freak I will have to comment on your values for the Rus bow. The missile speed bonus does not have any effect on the bow's damage, the damage you see is the "raw damage" at point blank range (this goes into a damage equation), what the missile speed does do however is make it easier to hit. However a buff in speed of arrows is not always good, it means that at range the arrow damage will decay faster. Air resistance follows the equation F=-(alpha)v^2, which means the higher the starting velocity the higher rate of decay. Also for faster missiles the speed the person is running towards you at matters less because less is weighted on the actual arrow speed.
Higher damage on range weapons make them less accurate, depending on the accuracy part. If so, removing the accuracy bonus would mean that bows would get less accurate for each tier of heirloom. Accuracy increase is just to balance out decreased accuracy of increased damage, iirc, which then means that only damage bonus and missile speed counts when heirlooming.


Normal arrows

|Damage|
|     2     |
|     2     |
|     3     |
|     4     |

Chosen the rus bow and normal arrows as that seems to be what the majority use now, as you can see the is an increase in damage of 2 or 100%, however as I don't know quite how the arrow damage is implemented I don't think either of those values reflects how much the damage is really increased by per shot, other than that there is an increase.

I haven't done any tests ingame so this may all be utter bs (may get round to doing it, but if anyone else has or wants to, please post info :D).
I have however had a lot of experience being hit by arrows and I generally find loomed archers consistantly hit 50% with body shots on my character with 59 health and 38 body armour, whereas a bog standard archer will do more in the region of 20% per arrow despite the players having 6 pd.

I realise that I have barely mentioned xbowers (will get round to it) and have made an assumption that they too have a similar problem as both the weapon and ammo can be heirloomed, not much ingame knowledge on them as I don't tend to see many dedicated xbows with fully loomed range equiptment anymore.

What I am suggesting is a slight reduction in the boosts heirlooms give, much like the melee weapons got awhile ago:

*New* Rus bow
|Damage|M speed|Accuracy|
|    29    |    37    |    101    |
|    30    |    37    |    102    |
|    30    |    38    |    102    |
|    31    |    39    |    103   |

Something like this would be better. There is still a good insentive to retire to loom your bow, but the difference between new archers and multi gen ones won't be so drastic.
(until I know how arrow damage or bolt damage is implemented I'll refrain from posting revised heirloom increases as it probably won't help :P)

These are some other suggestions
Though honestly if it were up to me, arrow heirlooms would never increase damage, and just quiver size, so that loomed archery is not more damaging then melee looms. Iwould keep the bows the same though.
The solution is simple; buff nonloomed ranged and nerf the effectiveness of their looms.
If you have better information on this topic/ have a better/different suggestion or see any errors, please feel free to post and correct me :)

EDIT: added some useful quotes, changed some incorrect information and modified the heirloom values slightly.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 18, 2011, 03:58:23 am
And how does this differ from armour compared to loomed armour (up to a 14 point difference)?
An archer using loomed arrows plus bow is more powerful then a normal one, sure, but what about a melee user fighting an identical one who has loomed gloves and armour and has 14 higher thus acting like a plate user?
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on September 18, 2011, 04:55:48 am
just learn to dodge, and stop qq here man. and about bows, they have cut dmg, expect longbow, nd xbows are super slow in reloading, so all is good.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: CaptainQuantum on September 18, 2011, 11:42:02 am
He is not asking for a nerf, he is asking for more weighting on the archers effectiveness than the looms. I have seen this myself vs Jambi, I will take 3-4 arrows on some people when he will only take 2, I would like to have more weighting on the archer than the looms myself even though my archer is an alt.

Because I am a maths freak I will have to comment on your values for the Rus bow. The missile speed bonus does not have any effect on the bow's damage, the damage you see is the "raw damage" at point blank range (this goes into a damage equation), what the missile speed does do however is make it easier to hit. However a buff in speed of arrows is not always good, it means that at range the arrow damage will decay faster. Air resistance follows the equation F=-(alpha)v^2, which means the higher the starting velocity the higher rate of decay. Also for faster missiles the speed the person is running towards you at matters less because less is weighted on the actual arrow speed.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Jarlek on September 18, 2011, 11:46:59 am
And how does this differ from armour compared to loomed armour (up to a 14 point difference)?
An archer using loomed arrows plus bow is more powerful then a normal one, sure, but what about a melee user fighting an identical one who has loomed gloves and armour and has 14 higher thus acting like a plate user?
Horse looms and melee weapon 'looms were reduced. Why shouldn't bows/xbows be? But you have a point. Armour 'looms should also be changed a bit.

just learn to dodge, and stop qq here man. and about bows, they have cut dmg, expect longbow, nd xbows are super slow in reloading, so all is good.

How the hell is this QQ? Begone, troll!
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Dezilagel on September 18, 2011, 11:57:57 am
I'm def with senni here - ranged looms have too much of an impact (also, archery is a playstyle more dependant on stats than others, making this difference even bigger).

The solution is simple; buff nonloomed ranged and nerf the effectiveness of their looms.

Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Thomek on September 18, 2011, 12:00:46 pm
I agree with OP and Dezilagel.

Buff non-loomed archer gear, and reduce the looming bonuses. it's not competitive atm, while fully loomed Archers do very well.

Can't believe I'm saying this lol..

Basically fully loomed archers would stay as they are, while beginners and non loomed archers get a buff.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Gurnisson on September 18, 2011, 12:41:33 pm
Also the accuracy increase though it appears to be small, seems to have a reasonable affect on reticule size.

Higher damage on range weapons make them less accurate, depending on the accuracy part. If so, removing the accuracy bonus would mean that bows would get less accurate for each tier of heirloom. Accuracy increase is just to balance out decreased accuracy of increased damage, iirc, which then means that only damage bonus and missile speed counts when heirlooming.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Brutal on September 18, 2011, 12:44:51 pm
And how does this differ from armour compared to loomed armour (up to a 14 point difference)?

bow/2H/1H/pole/xbow =weapon    armor=armor   not the same thing   :mrgreen:


I agree that the effectiveness between a non loomed ranged and loomed range is way too great.
But on the other hand you can't ask ranged to use six loom and have the same kind of effectiveness gain melee looms gives.
I say buff bows and xbows  stats and make projectiles non loomable, after all there is already different kind of arrows and bolts.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 18, 2011, 01:08:46 pm
Can you guys just stop the damn whine whine  qq about archers and xbowers??????

Every day there is another little guy who is sooooo sad because people can shoot him. And he seems to be ssoooooooo sad that he has other looms than ranged :O

I could cry the whole day about cav and melee infantry and about all the nerfs we archers get. Am I doing it? No.
And now, 2 days after another nerf the next boy comes with "archer looms are too good qq"......

Play another game if you guys hate everything about crpg

If you can't be a good archer without looms it's your fault. Maybe you should play another class? Some archers here can do pretty well even without looms. And people with looms have played alot and earned their looms, especially with a class that is almost useless until you hit lvl 25.
Now you want to change ranged loomstats just because of your incompetence? Seriously? It's about your skills and built and not about your looms. Seen enough archers with masterwork looms, still failing.....now please go and cry about something else
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Camaris on September 18, 2011, 01:44:10 pm
Can you guys just stop the damn whine whine  qq about archers and xbowers??????

Every day there is another little guy who is sooooo sad because people can shoot him. And he seems to be ssoooooooo sad that he has other looms than ranged :O

I could cry the whole day about cav and melee infantry and about all the nerfs we archers get. Am I doing it? No.
And now, 2 days after another nerf the next boy comes with "archer looms are too good qq"......

Play another game if you guys hate everything about crpg

If you can't be a good archer without looms it's your fault. Maybe you should play another class? Some archers here can do pretty well even without looms. And people with looms have played alot and earned their looms, especially with a class that is almost useless until you hit lvl 25.
Now you want to change ranged loomstats just because of your incompetence? Seriously? It's about your skills and built and not about your looms. Seen enough archers with masterwork looms, still failing.....now please go and cry about something else

Omg just read a bit better. They just stated that difference between loomed and nonloomed archers is to big.
They said that it would be better to buff archers and nerf archer-looms. TBH this is so very much true. There is no other class
that is sooooo focused on having looms. You can do well without but you never can be as good as a full loomed archer.
This idea is good. Reduce Loompower of Bows/Arrows and buff the non-loomed version instead.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 18, 2011, 02:37:14 pm
I know what I read and he wants to lower the bonus of ranged looms.

Just leave it as it is. Why do you guys always want to do something against archery? It's the only class people are constantly whining about, no matter how much we get nerfed.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Jarlek on September 18, 2011, 02:45:42 pm
I know what I read and he wants to lower the bonus of ranged looms.

Just leave it as it is. Why do you guys always want to do something against archery? It's the only class people are constantly whining about, no matter how much we get nerfed.
NOBODY has been whining about archery in this thread! How stupid are you! This is about BUFFING archery and NERFING archer looms. GOD you fail at reading!
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 18, 2011, 04:02:31 pm
yes, NERFING archer looms!!

Isn't that nerfing archery when you reduce the bonus a loomed bow gives?

goddamnit! stop trying to be intelligent :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 18, 2011, 06:04:44 pm
I agree with OP and Dezilagel.

Buff non-loomed archer gear, and reduce the looming bonuses. it's not competitive atm, while fully loomed Archers do very well.

Can't believe I'm saying this lol..

Basically fully loomed archers would stay as they are, while beginners and non loomed archers get a buff.

This I would agree to. I am just sick of the constant blanket nerfs, so a blanket buff once a year would be nice.

Though honestly if it were up to me, arrow heirlooms would never increase damage, and just quiver size, so that loomed archery is not more damaging then melee looms. Iwould keep the bows the same though.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Kafein on September 18, 2011, 06:24:03 pm
Someone has negative IQ here.

I totally agree with OP.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Senni__Ti on September 18, 2011, 06:32:44 pm
This I would agree to. I am just sick of the constant blanket nerfs, so a blanket buff once a year would be nice.

Though honestly if it were up to me, arrow heirlooms would never increase damage, and just quiver size, so that loomed archery is not more damaging then melee looms. Iwould keep the bows the same though.
^
This is something I also thought of :P. Also just to make it clear, my intention was never to nerf archery, I just wanted to even out archery a bit so that people without looms aren't rediculously weak in comparison.

Higher damage on range weapons make them less accurate, depending on the accuracy part. If so, removing the accuracy bonus would mean that bows would get less accurate for each tier of heirloom. Accuracy increase is just to balance out decreased accuracy of increased damage, iirc, which then means that only damage bonus and missile speed counts when heirlooming.

The stats I posted for each loom was literally guess work and just something to get the ball rolling, if accuracy is decreased as damage is increased then the last loom would probably should have 103 accuracy(+1 over the last loom) :P.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on September 18, 2011, 07:02:05 pm
I agree with OP and Dezilagel.

Buff non-loomed archer gear, and reduce the looming bonuses.

Basically fully loomed archers would stay as they are


Doens't make much sense does it?

When you reduce the loombonus fully loomed archers wouldn't stay as they are :/
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Jarlek on September 18, 2011, 07:17:55 pm

Doens't make much sense does it?

When you reduce the loombonus fully loomed archers wouldn't stay as they are :/
Since you obviously can't figure it out yourself, I'm gonna do it for you.

For simplicity let's only talk about damage. The bow is made up but the loom bonus is right.

CURRENT LOOM BOOST:

Base imagined-bow 20 damage.
MW bow gives +3 damage.
MW quiver gives +2.

Unloomed archer does 20 damage.
Fully loomed does 25 damage.

SUGGESTED CHANGE:

Bows in general are boosted.
Loom's are nerfed.

Base imagined-bow damage 22.
MW Bow gives +2.
MW quiver gives +1 (but bigger amount of arrows, but we are only looking at damage here).

Unloomed archer does 22 damage.
Fully loomed archer does 25.

NOW READ THIS MOTHERFUCKING WRAP UP, OK?!?!?
UNLOOOMED archers go from 20 to 22 damage.
FULLY LOOMED archers stay at 25 damage at both.

FULLY LOOMED ARCHERS stay as they bare.
UNLOOMED archers get a boost so that the difference between them is less.

So when you say:

Doens't make much sense does it?

When you reduce the loombonus fully loomed archers wouldn't stay as they are :/

Then I say "YOU ARE AN IDIOT!"

Seriously, it ain't that fucking hard!
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Bulzur on September 18, 2011, 07:58:45 pm
JArlek is MAD. :lol:

(click to show/hide)

I agree with OP. Archery, at the moment, is only viable if you have heirloomed your bow. (then if you heirloom your arrows, it starts getting interesting for thoses 7-8 PD archers out there. (as a 5 PD archer, with once-heirloomed normal arrows, i don't do that much damage at all)
Arrows seems fine at the moment. It's just frustrating to see the lowest arrows weighting so much more than the best ones. Who cares about realism, balance would want archers to be slower with the best arrows thant with the worst. :S
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: marco1391 on September 18, 2011, 08:17:06 pm
You are forgetting that while melee players can look up to have an huge bonus by gauntlets, armor and weapon (+14 armor and +~7/10% weapon damage + 1 weapon speed)archers can loom their arrows and their bow to have a good damage bonus(let's calculate that for the rus bow, +5damage over 34 base(tatar)=~13%damage bonus + a close to useless accuracy bonus of 2 and a decent gain in missile speed) while adding 7 armor(or 4 for most light weight armors)will not really change anything for archers since when you get into melee you are usually screwed anyway

I'd say that a full loomed melee player has a way higher bonus over his base gear than a full loomed archer

The real problem are full loomed crossbowers, they can get +13 damage, more bolts,more accuracy, more missile speed(and if it was for this I would say it is ok)but they can also fully benefit from the +14 armor and they can be extremely viable with a mw langes messer(that in 2h mode deals 38 cut and 27 pierce while being super fast)
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Jarlek on September 18, 2011, 08:18:00 pm
JArlek is MAD. :lol:

(click to show/hide)

I agree with OP. Archery, at the moment, is only viable if you have heirloomed your bow. (then if you heirloom your arrows, it starts getting interesting for thoses 7-8 PD archers out there. (as a 5 PD archer, with once-heirloomed normal arrows, i don't do that much damage at all)
Arrows seems fine at the moment. It's just frustrating to see the lowest arrows weighting so much more than the best ones. Who cares about realism, balance would want archers to be slower with the best arrows thant with the worst. :S
I always mad about people that can't read and then rages at everyone because of how dumb he is.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Lichen on September 18, 2011, 08:43:48 pm
FULLY LOOMED ARCHERS stay as they bare.
UNLOOMED archers get a boost so that the difference between them is less.
If you think the whining is bad now wait till regular archers do more damage. I'm pretty sure that would only increase the crying not decrease it.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Kafein on September 18, 2011, 08:50:46 pm
You are forgetting that while melee players can look up to have an huge bonus by gauntlets, armor and weapon (+14 armor and +~7/10% weapon damage + 1 weapon speed)archers can loom their arrows and their bow to have a good damage bonus(let's calculate that for the rus bow, +5damage over 34 base(tatar)=~13%damage bonus + a close to useless accuracy bonus of 2 and a decent gain in missile speed) while adding 7 armor(or 4 for most light weight armors)will not really change anything for archers since when you get into melee you are usually screwed anyway

I'd say that a full loomed melee player has a way higher bonus over his base gear than a full loomed archer

The real problem are full loomed crossbowers, they can get +13 damage, more bolts,more accuracy, more missile speed(and if it was for this I would say it is ok)but they can also fully benefit from the +14 armor and they can be extremely viable with a mw langes messer(that in 2h mode deals 38 cut and 27 pierce while being super fast)

Even if we only take damage into account, the difference is enormous :

Give 6 heirloom points to an archer. He gets a +3 bow and +3 arrows, for a net 5 raw damage increase, and in reality much more considering most archers have 5-6 PD and more, and each point gives +14% dmg. At 6 PD that means +9,2 damage.

Give 6 heirloom points to a melee. He gets +3 weapon and +3 armor. The +3 weapon gives +2 raw damage. Most melee have 5-6 PS and more, and each point only gives +8% damage. At 6 PS that means +2,96 damage. The armor heirloom gives 7 armor points. Most melee have roughly 60 HP. All in all, 7 more armor will not save your life very often. It's still a great choice as heirloom for melee, but not even close to the effectiveness of bow looms.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Bulzur on September 18, 2011, 10:02:08 pm
7 more body armor with the main armor + 7 more body armor with the gloves = 14 more body armor. And that's HUGE !


Yes, bow heirlooms are too strong.
Yes, archery is crappy with no heirloom.
Yes, armor heirlooms are too strong.
No, armor are not crappy without heirlooms.
Title: Re: Range looms
Post by: Senni__Ti on September 18, 2011, 11:18:56 pm
I couldn't put it better :L