cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Overdriven on September 17, 2011, 10:20:37 pm
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Disclaimer: This is now for sensible discussions. No raging inf, and no overly protective cav (myself included).
Fact is horses got nerfed. It was to harsh, 1h cav are reported to have struggled majorly. And I know as an HA the slow speeds meant I was being shot off my horse more than ever due to the fact it is necessary for me to wear low armour (thus rely on my horse more). It was then rebuffed. I'm not 100% sure to what extent, but top speed certainly seems slightly lower.
Horse nerfs like that don't work primarily because of the type of maps we have. A lot of inf/ranged rage that horses are mountain goats. Yet they seem to forget the reason for that is that on EU1 for example, there are 4 maps out of 70 that are random plains. There are a few maps that have open areas (ruins and field by river, and a few desert maps for example as the rare few) but a lot of the maps are very hilly, with lots of buildings for protection. As a result horses need to be able to accelerate quickly and move around buildings.
So I want this discussion to go in the direction of taking 1h/lancers/HA as separate things and forget the idea of horses for now.
There are certain things that have been suggested by various people in the past:
1. Increase lance angle/length (with wse I think this is now possible, at least it has been suggested in past that it would be) but fix issues such as stand still lances doing very high damage.
2. Horse bumping. There have been a number of suggestions for this. I see horse bumping as fairly necessary. But it is certainly open for discussion as to how it could possibly be adjusted.
Feel free to add more ideas. But please keep them sensible and justify your reasons. I would like to limit the pointless raging in this thread.
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Which way to the unreal cav discussion?
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Pretty much every thread Leshma has ever made:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14958.345.html
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Either nerf cav or remove 90% of the cav maps and add a few more infantry maps ( city maps). I would love to see a cycle of like 6 different city maps, 6 plain maps and maybe a few village maps. This way cav wont have such a big advantage on every map in the cycle.
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Either nerf cav or remove 90% of the cav maps and add a few more infantry maps ( city maps). I would love to see a cycle of like 6 different city maps, 6 plain maps and maybe a few village maps. This way cav wont have such a big advantage on every map in the cycle.
Wait what? :| Which servers do you play on? Cause it sure as hell isn't EU1.
And 'nerf cav' isn't exactly specific.
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I think there's quite a few things that need tweaking to bring Cav into balance with the rest of the game.
1) Ranged Chars should only be able to carry 1 quiver of arrows/bolts/darts/whatever. The ammo in those quivers should then be adjusted to always be the same. For instance, why can someone carry 24 arrows, but only 15 Bodkins which are the same size? Make then both 24 and make that the max (unloomed) arrows that anybody can carry. With scrounging it should be more than enough and will mean HAs stop being the end game annoyance that they currently are.
2) Since HAs now only get 24 arrows (unloomed) I think they would deserve an accuracy boost. However I would couple this with an accuracy nerf for people on stationary horses. This would encouraged HAs to actually try skillful shots whilst on the move instead of encouraging them to continually stop their horses just out of range, fire a few shots and then move away before you can get to them. This has to be one of the most annoying HA tactics ever.
3) Add horses weights to their stats. Then use this and the horse speeds to determine each horses max momentum and base maneuverability on this. Right now I don't think Horses are balanced against each other so it is no wonder some of them are overpowered in the game whilst the average horse is not. So long as whoever picks the weights uses a bit a common sense then it should work out quite well and force Cav to really pick between speed, armour and maneuverability.
4) Add disarms to the game. A Lancer going at full tilt, hitting someobody for a massive amount of damage should have a chance of being disarmed. Link the disarm chance to the damage done when thrusting only and it will make sure this doesn't happen in normal melees and it is only a feature to give Cav something to think about and stop them being able to dominate battlefields doing the same thing over and over again. This would also apply to people stabbing horses that are charging at them, which would nerf 2Handed thrusts vs Cav which are currently OP. Standing directly in the way of a charging horse and thrusting a 2 Handed sword into the horses head (and then into the rider) should not be an preferable anti Cav method. It can be there as a last resort that leads to you being disarmed but nothing more. Since Spear thrusts stop horses rather than damaging them, this will not nerf pikeman against Cav.
5) Nerf 1 handed spear thrust damage from staitionary horses (as suggested by Overdriven). I agree with this suggestion so thought i'd include it in my list :)
6) Add deployable stakes to the game
Do all that right and I think Cav will end up balanced
EDIT: Completely off topic but this was triggered by what I just wrote so figured I'd post it here. With regards to looming it would be interesting if you could choose how to loom your weapons. For instance, with arrows it would be good if you had to choose either extra arrows or extra damage. With weapons you would choose either speed or damage (or accuracy for bows) and with armour you would choose extra armour or decreased weight. This would lead to a lot more variation in weapons and could be quite good
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No lance angle increase until client side WSE.
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I strongly encourage chadz proposition of "no rearing by polearms", hp buff etc. it would give the game a completely new dynamic, cav can actually be used as formation breaker.
I also encourage to see all classes being balanced against each other concerning organized battles and not rambo-style everyone for him-self play styles.
that would mean: nerf class abilities that foster lone wolf tactics, buff the classes abilities that make them highly effective in teamwork
cav-wise that could be:
-nerfs: speed and maneuverability, also movement highly dependable on terrain
-buffs: hp, bump damage or time the bumped is on floor (maybe even make them be thrown aside a bit), no rearing when stabbed
this would make the horse a huge part of charges against infantry formations, but also make them very vulnarable if they go on hunting alone, as the cant dodge arrows or get away if slowed down fast enough.
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Fact is there is nothing wrong with cav.
The problem is the sound engine and people gettin backstapped 24/7.
Thats bout it doenst matter what the dev does without some sound fix Cav will remain OP in people´s eyes.
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Cavalry has maneuverability and therefore unpredictable. They will always be able to get the drop on the unaware or otherwise engaged. Still I think there are certain things that can be done to make cav more of a challenge and harder for those without skill.
Ladders should be removed from battle and stakes should be added
Horses should get a major maneuverability nerf, especially the arab horse. They should get a significant buff in HP and charge damage. This way cavalry will have to anticipate cause they can't change plans on the fly, while allowing more room for mistake. Maybe we will actually see mass cav charges.
They will become less unpredictable when not able to change direction as quickly. Make them better against aware players and reduce their ability to kill the unaware.
Remove the horse rearing when stabbed with a polearm, the speed bonus does enough damage.
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No lance angle increase until client side WSE.
Good news. I find cavalry incredibly boring as it is now. My main satisfaction was pissing off pikemen, outreaching them with side stab :D
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Is there no place in this discussion for 2h cav!?
Oh the injustice!
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Thanks for bringing up a serious debate.
Your two points are dead on. The angle nerf was too harsh; it should be increased a small amount.
BIGGEST POINT-your second-decrease the damage done by cav across the board(weapon dam-set amount because on cav) so that it's fair to all cav classes. Then increase the speed bonus so that skillful strikes at full speed are still the one shot kills of today. The slow motion uphill strikes and magic cav circle you four times before you can get up from the horsebump strikes would be very weak and thus the cheese factor would diminish greatly.
This makes all people happy. If someone lances you at full speed YOU SHOULD DIE. If someone pokes at you with a spear on a horse YOU SHOULD NOT. Skill would be rewarded, cheesy play would be discouraged.
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There are few maps where you can go full speed anywhere. Full speed strikes won't even kill people in one shot, hell couch lancing doesn't even kill in one shot anymore.
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Wait what? :| Which servers do you play on? Cause it sure as hell isn't EU1.
And 'nerf cav' isn't exactly specific.
Well what i meant by nerfing cav is actually nerf bumping, i hate when cav bump through 5 people and barely loosing any speed. Also you shouldnt get bumped when its walking by you. And yes i play EU1 and it is loaded with cav maps, plains here plains there, sometimes a village map but to me that is a cav map aswell. MOAR CITY MAPS!
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Phantom, please read the rest of the post brother. It specifically says to increase speed based damage(would be perfectly fine with me if there was an increase in overall damage with increased speed buff). This is not a call for a nerf or a buff...rather a change in gameplay dynamics that rewards the skilled and increases fair play/less cheesiness.
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I think there's quite a few things that need tweaking to bring Cav into balance with the rest of the game.
1) Ranged Chars should only be able to carry 1 quiver of arrows/bolts/darts/whatever. The ammo in those quivers should then be adjusted to always be the same. For instance, why can someone carry 24 arrows, but only 15 Bodkins which are the same size? Make then both 24 and make that the max (unloomed) arrows that anybody can carry. With scrounging it should be more than enough and will mean HAs stop being the end game annoyance that they currently are.
2) Since HAs now only get 24 arrows (unloomed) I think they would deserve an accuracy boost. However I would couple this with an accuracy nerf for people on stationary horses. This would encouraged HAs to actually try skillful shots whilst on the move instead of encouraging them to continually stop their horses just out of range, fire a few shots and then move away before you can get to them. This has to be one of the most annoying HA tactics ever.
3) Add horses weights to their stats. Then use this and the horse speeds to determine each horses max momentum and base maneuverability on this. Right now I don't think Horses are balanced against each other so it is no wonder some of them are overpowered in the game whilst the average horse is not. So long as whoever picks the weights uses a bit a common sense then it should work out quite well and force Cav to really pick between speed, armour and maneuverability.
4) Add disarms to the game. A Lancer going at full tilt, hitting someobody for a massive amount of damage should have a chance of being disarmed. Link the disarm chance to the damage done when thrusting only and it will make sure this doesn't happen in normal melees and it is only a feature to give Cav something to think about and stop them being able to dominate battlefields doing the same thing over and over again. This would also apply to people stabbing horses that are charging at them, which would nerf 2Handed thrusts vs Cav which are currently OP. Standing directly in the way of a charging horse and thrusting a 2 Handed sword into the horses head (and then into the rider) should not be an preferable anti Cav method. It can be there as a last resort that leads to you being disarmed but nothing more. Since Spear thrusts stop horses rather than damaging them, this will not nerf pikeman against Cav.
5) Nerf 1 handed spear thrust damage from staitionary horses (as suggested by Overdriven). I agree with this suggestion so thought i'd include it in my list :)
6) Add deployable stakes to the game
Do all that right and I think Cav will end up balanced
EDIT: Completely off topic but this was triggered by what I just wrote so figured I'd post it here. With regards to looming it would be interesting if you could choose how to loom your weapons. For instance, with arrows it would be good if you had to choose either extra arrows or extra damage. With weapons you would choose either speed or damage (or accuracy for bows) and with armour you would choose extra armour or decreased weight. This would lead to a lot more variation in weapons and could be quite good
1. That would require some major adjusting. Plus, HA's can't scrounge. Being up on a horse means you have to stop directly over a weapon and look very sharply down to pick anything up. It would be easier for foot archers, in fact I see a lot of foot archers who do scrounge.
2. As much as I like the idea of an accuracy boost. Not at the detriment of more arrows. Accuracy isn't everything as HA. There is a lot of skill in being able to adjust your shots relating to your speed ect. It's why I can out shoot a lot of HA just by constantly shifting my attack direction/speed. It takes a lot of practice to know how to change your shots relating to those two factios. It's also why I often get out shot by HA who ride very slowly all the time (surreal for example) because I'm not used to shifting down to that slow a speed whilst they always ride that speed. But regardless, as an HA, unless you are the very best, you will miss a lot of arrows. 24 isn't enough unless you get killed in the first 2mins of a fight.
3. I'm not sure how you would determine the weights of light horses between each other. And heavy horses are already very slow compared to light horses to take into account the weight I think. It's an interesting idea though.
4. From a realism perspective disarms would make sense. But from a balance perspective I'm not sure that would. You would have to make a lot of adjustments to allow lancers to be able to use close melee weapons. A lot of lancers have pure pole arm wpf. I like that you try to balance it against 2h doing the same though.
5. We agree then :P
6. Not a fan of deployable stakes. I see them as being to abusable and potentially very buggy.
I strongly encourage chadz proposition of "no rearing by polearms", hp buff etc. it would give the game a completely new dynamic, cav can actually be used as formation breaker.
I also encourage to see all classes being balanced against each other concerning organized battles and not rambo-style everyone for him-self play styles.
that would mean: nerf class abilities that foster lone wolf tactics, buff the classes abilities that make them highly effective in teamwork
cav-wise that could be:
-nerfs: speed and maneuverability, also movement highly dependable on terrain
-buffs: hp, bump damage or time the bumped is on floor (maybe even make them be thrown aside a bit), no rearing when stabbed
this would make the horse a huge part of charges against infantry formations, but also make them very vulnarable if they go on hunting alone, as the cant dodge arrows or get away if slowed down fast enough.
From the speed nerf that we originally had though (before rebuff), this makes it very difficult for any cav that doesn't have a shield. Archers simply aim for you rather than the horse and at slower speeds they stand a greater chance of hitting. If you're in a formation/big group this would make it even easier. You then get the other problem of, why shouldn't you have fast light cav? Most HA need to be fast light cav for example.
No lance angle increase until client side WSE.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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The one thing I've noticed about Cav is that riding ability scales much like archery: exponentially.
I'm not talking number crunching. I don't do that. I'm talking when you start out, you can barely ride, and when you hit the upper end of the skill peak you're performing 20x better.
For archery, this means you can reliably hit things, and eventually are a crack shot. As it should be.
For cavalry, this means your superarmored horse is performing 90 or 180 degree turns in the space of three meters. In my view, this is not as it should be. In fact, it's patently ridiculous.
I happen to think that cavalry deserve less maneuverability at higher levels. Notably, at lot of this is the result of exacerbating high skill returns with heirloomed items. Cavalry doesn't deserve to be put on equal footing with infantry, but they neither should they function as "better" infantry. Top tier Cavalry need to stay within the niches of shock and speed which cannot just hover forever on the outskirts of a battle, darting in to strike with impunity.