cRPG
Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Tristan on September 06, 2011, 06:25:43 pm
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Ok. The way I see it is the following.
The idea behind catapults is that they give the attacker the ability to crush walls making it easier to take castles. Problem now is, that the catapults are very effective at taking down walls causing castles to have little to no defensive purpose.
If you lower the effectiveness of catapults the attackers are just going to arm themselves with greater patience making the siegebattles even longer and drawn out.
Adding ammunition to catapult could be a solution, but is it conceivable that attackers would never be well stocked on this?
Right now, besides being a cool feature, I have a hard time imagining how catapults add to the fun of gameplay.
I might lack vision, but can someone come with a suggestion of how they can actually increase fun? Not just draw out sieges and after waiting for an hour making them pitched battles.
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I agree the way catapults are as of now is terrible. I prefer my siege battles to be similar to single player siege. People are forced to bring ladders or use the preset invincible ladders basically assuring that it is always harder to take a castle than defend one.
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catapults are fine...
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I agree the way catapults are as of now is terrible. I prefer my siege battles to be similar to single player siege. People are forced to bring ladders or use the preset invincible ladders basically assuring that it is always harder to take a castle than defend one.
Catapults should make gaps in walls instead of bringing the walls down completely, that way they create more places for the attackers to breach but still possible to fend off by the besieged side. They should also have limited (and expensive) ammo and/or longer reload rate.
I know all this is hard to code and make into the game, but as it is atm, catapults render castles almost completely useless.
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I think making ammo very expensive and limited would be good solution. Wont be able to take down all the entire castle walls, isntead lower them slightly making thema little easier for ladder atatcks and siege tower tactics. Catapults should be useful but not the be all, end all of siege equipment they are now.
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retracted: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,15179.msg215345.html#msg215345
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There should be a timer for attackers. After 1-2 hours they reatreat and lose 15% of troops and equipment. So they will be forced to play aggressively.
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I like the idea of ammo and would like to introduce another (logical) one:
If you break (or even damage) a wall, the faction that keeps the castle in the end needs to REPAIR it, probably with huge costs (and time to repair it).
This would disencourage attackers from just razing the castle and make defenders have to focus on breaking catapults so that if they win, they dont have to use the resources to repair the castle. Also, I dont know if for later battles the scene could be saved so that the unrepaired walls appear still broken (or and admin use a catapult to break them before the beginning of the proper siege).
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I like the idea of ammo and would like to introduce another (logical) one:
If you break (or even damage) a wall, the faction that keeps the castle in the end needs to REPAIR it, probably with huge costs (and time to repair it).
This would disencourage attackers from just razing the castle and make defenders have to focus on breaking catapults so that if they win, they dont have to use the resources to repair the castle. Also, I dont know if for later battles the scene could be saved so that the unrepaired walls appear still broken (or and admin use a catapult to break them before the beginning of the proper siege).
I suggested this in another thread, I'm glad you bring it up. This is a very good idea. It should take time and/or money for the people who take over a castle to repair the damage done during the siege. Once strategus implements crafting/engineering then they should also add an option for an engineer to rebuild the walls/fix the damage using resources (and also still keep the option of paying a certain amount and for a certain time to fix a percentage of the walls [like say 5% an hour at a cost of 1000 gold]).
Also, can someone move this thread to the stragegus issues forum?
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If I'm not mistaken this thread: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2869.0.html hints that in the future walls will be "hollowed out" rather than completely destroyed, which will balance things out more.
That plus I think we'll start seeing "defensive catapults" as standard castle defense equipment.
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For fucks sake adding expensive ammo to catapults ?
THEY THROW ROCKS FOR FUCKS SAKE ROCKS !
It is just fine as it is.Add defensive ballistas or flaming arrows if you want to buff defenders but do not NERF catapults.
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balistias would be great!
i agree its kinda of dumb that in 30 minutes attackers can render 2 sides of the castle completely wall-less.
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For fucks sake adding expensive ammo to catapults ?
THEY THROW ROCKS FOR FUCKS SAKE ROCKS !
It is just fine as it is.Add defensive ballistas or flaming arrows if you want to buff defenders but do not NERF catapults.
Pretty cool rocks if they totally destroy castle walls (no matter made of what) in 4-5 shots.
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Pretty cool rocks if they totally destroy castle walls (no matter made of what) in 4-5 shots.
saw a catapult hit wall like 8 times today and it got ALMOST down, so what the hell are u talking about?
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saw a catapult hit wall like 8 times today and it got ALMOST down, so what the hell are u talking about?
Castle walls can be different. Point is, catapults make sieges way easier than what they are supposed to be. A trained catapult crew (or two, why not) can demolish the whole castle in no time.
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it takes a fucking long time to take down a wall with a catapult...
catapults make sieges way easier
erm...
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it takes a fucking long time to take down a wall with a catapult...
erm...
Only because it takes time first to build the catapult and than to adjust the aim.
What i'm trying to say is catapults were introduced (and that's good, no doubt) in cRPG/Strategus to make sieges more versatile and intense, but right now they do the exact opposite. Not to mention that if you give one side a tool, you need to give the other side something too in order to keep the game balanced. IMO catapults when used properly > any castle defences right now and the scenario of every siege is going to be the same eventually. Why try to capture the gatehouse and open the gates if you can just bring down the whole thing ?
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see the video SPQR linked, maybe if the wall was sectioned off like that, and once it had taken so many hits from a catapult it was destroyed, plus you could give each catapult a limited amount of ammo, that would be pretty cool, now, bring out the trebuchet and bring the rest of those walls down...
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Ask HRE about "Catapults making sieges way easier" thing...
We destroyed 7 catapults of them trololol.Kill engineers,charge at catapults.You can even destroy catapult with coordinated ranged spam ffs .Most of the castes have an inner wall also and most of the walls have exterior wall which protect the main wall.There are also stakes etc...
Don't exxagerate castles some of them made of WOOD !
Pray equus africanus asinuss that they didn't add Trebuchet on this game ;)
... Why try to capture the gatehouse and open the gates if you can just bring down the whole thing ?...
That's the exact same reason that people invented siege machines.
edit:
Actually partial damage on walls would be nice,with 1 hit seeing the whole thing going down is a bit of lolz anyway.
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Meow is working on that cool new wall project of his, should be out soon. :lol:
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edit:
Actually partial damage on walls would be nice,with 1 hit seeing the whole thing going down is a bit of lolz anyway.
And exactly why some sieges went on for years.
You see , it was a technological race (which eventually was won by the artilerry that rendered the castles useless) , but atm in Strategus the attackers have the obvious technological edge =).
P.S. Can't wait to see the partial damage thing work too.
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They would be fine if they just made a hole in the wall instead of the entire wall section coming down which currently enables attackers to flood in basically as if it was open plains and the castle no longer existed.
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saw a catapult hit wall like 8 times today and it got ALMOST down, so what the hell are u talking about?
his point was that 8 large boulders, 2 feet in diameter, is not going to completely raze a castle wall that is made of mortar and stone. In strategus it does just that.
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the main problem is that you guys see the Castle siege as it is now. And that is very wrong because they will be very different when they have faction owners. Limited ammo i don't agree on, simply because its stupid.
Hollowed walls will be in future and i am guessing maybe smaller catapults on the walls for the defenders.
Possibility to open doors is a MUST as i see it. Many Castles would have Cav as part of there defense.
For now its fine, just not when AI owns the Castle/Town. It will be 5 times harder to take from faction even with more troops.
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the main problem is that you guys see the Castle siege as it is now. And that is very wrong because they will be very different when they have faction owners. Limited ammo i don't agree on, simply because its stupid.
Hollowed walls will be in future and i am guessing maybe smaller catapults on the walls for the defenders.
Possibility to open doors is a MUST as i see it. Many Castles would have Cav as part of there defense.
For now its fine, just not when AI owns the Castle/Town. It will be 5 times harder to take from faction even with more troops.
I generally agree with this. Right now for neutral castles it poses a problem since defenders are rarely organized to the point of being more than a small bump in the road. You try taking another faction's castle on the other hand, you know those two catapults are going to come under tremendous fire from ranged, defensive catapults, and infantry/cav sallying out to attack them. I would say wait until more faction vs faction battles occur to determine if catapults really need to be nerfed or not.
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Catapults are not OP, otherwise DRZ would have taken the FCC castle in the first try instead of the constant repeat of D-Day.
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Hollowed walls will be in future and i am guessing maybe smaller catapults on the walls for the defenders.
Possibility to open doors is a MUST as i see it. Many Castles would have Cav as part of there defense.
For now its fine, just not when AI owns the Castle/Town. It will be 5 times harder to take from faction even with more troops.
Being able to open the gate I think is important, for two reasons:
1) Give the attackers an alternate entry method besides catapults
2) Give the defenders a way to sally out and destroy siege equipment
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Being able to open the gate I think is important, for two reasons:
1) Give the attackers an alternate entry method besides catapults
2) Give the defenders a way to sally out and destroy siege equipment
An open/closeable gate would do the trick I believe (and allow catapults to be left alone). Ranged, sallying, and counter-catapults need to be fully vetted before saying there needs to be a nerf on catapults.
I retract my earlier post.
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What if we just invent a new type of seige equipment that repairs a castle wall at a slower rate than a catapult can destroy it? Let's say we make a Brick Stacker that takes 150% as long to operate as it does to pull a catapult's arm back? So in a head to head race with a single catapult and a single brick stacker, the catapult will win. Hence you'll need 2 brick stackers to keep a wall up against a catapult. But then the enemy could just bring more catapults. Basically, it will be a huge gamble on how many catapults and how many brick stackers you want to bring to the seige. Or the attackers could opt out of bringing catapults and bring seige towers and ladders instead while defense wastes money on brick stackers that immediately become useless with no catapults. I think this would add some nice hard decision making to the game. Also, it makes spies a strategic advantage. If you have somebody in the enemy faction to tell you what equipment they're bringing, you can buy specific equipment to counter it.
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What if we just invent a new type of seige equipment that repairs a castle wall at a slower rate than a catapult can destroy it? Let's say we make a Brick Stacker that takes 150% as long to operate as it does to pull a catapult's arm back? So in a head to head race with a single catapult and a single brick stacker, the catapult will win. Hence you'll need 2 brick stackers to keep a wall up against a catapult. But then the enemy could just bring more catapults. Basically, it will be a huge gamble on how many catapults and how many brick stackers you want to bring to the seige. Or the attackers could opt out of bringing catapults and bring seige towers and ladders instead while defense wastes money on brick stackers that immediately become useless with no catapults. I think this would add some nice hard decision making to the game. Also, it makes spies a strategic advantage. If you have somebody in the enemy faction to tell you what equipment they're bringing, you can buy specific equipment to counter it.
What happens if the attacker makes a brickstacker and attacks the wall? Can he make the wall fly high above in the sky? That would be hillarious. Also what does a brickstacker look like? Does it shit bricks?
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Here's a solution, why not make an item(similar to con materail) that's throwable to REPAIR wall damage? Make it cost like....5k a thing. Cata has unlimited ammo, you just need to keep repairing long enough to force timer out, or make attackers use ladders or focus fire.
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What happens if the attacker makes a brickstacker and attacks the wall? Can he make the wall fly high above in the sky? That would be hillarious. Also what does a brickstacker look like? Does it shit bricks?
That would indeed be a hilarious bug if there wasn't a max height (z value?) set for the walls. Who needs gates? "Open the Wall!"
If I was doing the aesthetic design, I would just make it look like a scaffold on wheels with bricks stacked on it. But since that would require somebody to do a 3D design, maybe there's something else that already exists in the game and looks like something that could be used to stack bricks
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Just make catapults self damage with each shot. That will effectively set an ammo limit since the catapult will fall apart after a certain number of shots - 10 perhaps?
It is probably also the smallest possible amount of coding to help solve the problem.
I don't agree with any sort of wall repairing as that will just drag sieges out even more
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Clever defenders could charge the catapult with a light cav force (not doable on all maps).
But yes catapult shots definetly have to be somehow limited. Revamping the cities and castles to make them harder to attack would be good too (2 or 3 walls) but we lack map designers willing do to this.
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Is this because Fallen is ONE OF the only clans who know how to use catapults? First you nerf the shit out of our archers now you want to break our brand new toys? Sad Gawin :(