cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: UrLukur on January 24, 2011, 07:46:01 pm

Title: Internal shield balance
Post by: UrLukur on January 24, 2011, 07:46:01 pm
The internal balance of shield is not really good, there are few choices that actually stand a chance:
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now consider overlooked ones:
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The latter, which means most heraldic ones, are just not worth it.

Now considering the gameplay, disc shaped shields are better than inversed tear shaped shield, as they are wider so they protect more from sides (and shooting under and over is less common) they also serve better in melee.

Now consider hp/armor ratio. Consider the side sword wielded by person with 150 effective wpf and PS6. It deals about 58 damage without speed bonus. Consider the same with 2h weapon, lets say katana and dannish longsword. First with mirror setup (2h and Poles have generally better stats than 1h, but it's not really relevant here), they deal 66 and 73 respectively.

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It means, that side sword deal 31 each time it strike so need 16 hits to break Norman Shield and 18 to break Heavy Board Shield, assuming he didn't hit with some hitbonus. Against Katana Norman last 14 and german need 12, board more. Now take high armor shield, 22 armor: Against Side Sword elite cavalry last 14 hits, against katana it's 12 hits and german chew through it with 10. Huscarl in such cases would last 16 against side sword, 14 against katana and 12 german (all aprox and considering shield low shield skill as high is not really useful those days). So high hitpoint shields are generally better than high armor shield even against weapons that are not intended to destroy shields, those shields also benefit more from high shield skill if i get the formula right (soak then reduction then shield skill), and fare better even against 1h weapons with no bonus to shield.

All things considering, buff shields with worse stats that have similar price. For example Kite shield is way worse than Norman shield, and Other cavalry shields are worse than elite and heather.

Also, make heirloom bonus percentage increase, not set increase.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: bruce on January 24, 2011, 11:23:08 pm
Unless the armour rating is very high (buckler and steel), the "high armour" shields are easier to break using normal weapons compared to high HP shields; and even on the very high armour ones (buckler, steel), the shieldbreaking weapons (1h axes, 2h axes, polearms, throwing weapons) are more effective vs the high HP shields. Oh, and high armour shields are generally more expensive.

For instance, take the knightly heather shield:
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and the knightly kite:
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vs the ordinary heather shield:
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In practice, these two shields perform more or less the same, with the ordinary heather shield being slightly more durable (especially vs shieldbreakers) and slightly slower, while costing 1200 gold less.

If we want to see something really useless, look at this:
Plate Covered Round Shield   4156 gold
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In practice, this is horrible. With 100 HP, you're not much more durable vs normal weapons then a eg norman shield is, while having less coverage, more weight, less speed and break in two hits from just about any shieldbreaking weapon (I twoshot it with throwing axes). And the luxury of having such a utterly crappy shield costs you 4156 gold, 1K gold more then a norman shield. Waste of a really pretty looking model.

And two useless heraldric shields:
Heavy Heater Shield   4346 gold   
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Heavy Kite Shield   4080   
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Now compare it to the norman shield:
Norman Shield   3226   
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The norman is significantly cheaper, slightly more resilient, provides better coverage, slightly lighter - and it pays for it with having 5 less speed.

Anyway: what really bothers me is that the huscarl - which is not the highest tier shield, btw, but even if it was it'd still stand - is the defacto standard for a shielder, with the most durability bar a high shield skill steel shield vs a non-shieldbreaking weapon and the biggest coverage (protecting you from both projectiles and melee sideswings best).
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: UrLukur on January 25, 2011, 12:22:14 am
I think i showed that they perform worse than shields with high hp.

Thinking about solution for this problem.

Knightly Kite have 3 less armor than Knightly Heather for 5 more hp. Solution could be increase health of Knightly Kite by some 10 or so.

Question is, how are shield balanced at the moment ?
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on January 25, 2011, 12:24:14 am
I agree that round shields are far superior, especially since with a decent shield skill (4 or 5) a round shield covers up and down enough, so there is no actual advantage to using a high one.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: UrLukur on January 25, 2011, 12:25:04 am
I agree that round shields are far superior, especially since with a decent shield skill (4 or 5) a round shield covers up and down enough, so there is no actual advantage to using a high one.

It is, question is, how to compensate high shield for it ? Solution could be making high shield superior to round shield in terms of stats, now it's the other way.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Gorath on January 25, 2011, 02:05:39 am
Speed.  That's how I would fix the shield balances.  You're right, Huscarl is the de-facto go to uber shield.  And why not?  In practice, while slower stat wise than other shields, it responds fast enough for everyone with a side sword/scimitar/pick to melee competently with along with the most cover and durability.  Sure alot of us die hard 1h fans will use another worse shield for looks (or the illusion of speed) but really the speed benefit isn't quite there.

An overall buff to the speeds of smaller/lighter/lesser tier shields (the heater line, the kite line, plate covered round shield) would give them a value as you'd be more of a melee threat than the typical huscarl/spammitar user.  How many speed points this would take, I'm not entirely sure as it's hard to measure the effect of shield speed points currently.  I suppose with a few of us testing we could figure out the benefit per point, but.....

Anyways, that's how I'd fix the internal balance.  I love using stuff other than the norm or cookie cutters, but frankly when people PM me or ask about my thoughts on shielder in general I can't really justify telling them anything but Huscarl + pick/spammitar/side sword as a general rule of thumb.

*Oh, as for buffing the non-round shields.  I would just give them more armor/hp to bring them up to more huscarl/board shield levels.  Not necessarily better, but on par.*
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: MountedRhader on January 25, 2011, 02:50:26 am
I am a 2hand thrower hybrid and I agree with this. I used to be 1hand and it stank up until I purchased huscarl. Small shields could use a buff and large shields a de-buff (minor at most)
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Danath on January 25, 2011, 03:01:57 am
What is this topic actually about?

lol

If you have a crap shield you will die a lot quicker as 1h.

Yes higher HP > higher armor. It means the axe users have to work abit to break your shield. Axe damage bypasses armor from what I know. So your 60 armor steel shield with 5 hp's wont last long.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: UrLukur on January 25, 2011, 03:10:30 am
What is this topic actually about?

lol

If you have a crap shield you will die a lot quicker as 1h.

Yes higher HP > higher armor. It means the axe users have to work abit to break your shield. Axe damage bypasses armor from what I know. So your 60 armor steel shield with 5 hp's wont last long.

You know wrong. It's about internal balance of shields, as those are unbalanced atm, and will be balanced soon.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Mala on January 25, 2011, 04:27:07 am
Unless the armour rating is very high (buckler and steel), ...


If we want to see something really useless, look at this:
Plate Covered Round Shield   4156 gold
(click to show/hide)

In practice, this is horrible. With 100 HP, you're not much more durable vs normal weapons then a eg norman shield is, while having less coverage, more weight, less speed and break in two hits from just about any shieldbreaking weapon (I twoshot it with throwing axes). And the luxury of having such a utterly crappy shield costs you 4156 gold, 1K gold more then a norman shield. Waste of a really pretty looking model.

...

The buckler has become a fluff item, too.
It is expensive, quite tricky in melee and useless against ranged. Well, the later would be ok, but after the patch i catch a lot of body shots, which is covered by my little salad dish, unlike my head and feet.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on January 25, 2011, 08:02:36 pm
The bucklers problem is the cost imho.

It does what it should be - only a way out of manual blocking. A "parry" shield. Not a "cover" shield. Thus different from the other shields - better at melee (faster, hard to break) but not useful against ranged (or slightly useful). As such its a melee fighting shield, but costs imho too much to use, as a cheaper shield will do comparably well.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: rustyspoon on January 25, 2011, 08:30:38 pm
Speed.  That's how I would fix the shield balances. 

An overall buff to the speeds of smaller/lighter/lesser tier shields (the heater line, the kite line, plate covered round shield) would give them a value as you'd be more of a melee threat than the typical huscarl/spammitar user. 

TOTALLY agree. That is something that this mod has needed for a long time. It would be nice to have a reason to pick one shield over another other than looks. As it is currently, shield speed doesn't seem to make any difference at all.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Mala on January 26, 2011, 06:03:24 am
The bucklers problem is the cost imho.

It does what it should be - only a way out of manual blocking. A "parry" shield. Not a "cover" shield. Thus different from the other shields - better at melee (faster, hard to break) but not useful against ranged (or slightly useful). As such its a melee fighting shield, but costs imho too much to use, as a cheaper shield will do comparably well.
And that is the problem. It is not that good in melee too (well it was before the patch). Now i can get hit from slighty off-center attacks, because they came in a bad angle.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on January 26, 2011, 08:23:29 am
I havent used it myself, so dont take what I say without consideration but...

Firstly I dont think it should be "as good" in blocking melee as others - a buckler should take more skill, it just removes the need to directional block but not "turtle" you - so a completly different thing then the big shields. I dont know though if it is too much so, or to "bad" to use.

On the other hand, not sure if that can be helped. If its size is increased, it will block arrows and be an "uber" shield. Without increasing size, attacks will bypass it.


So imho
Buckler
- should ease blocking in melee (but not in the same way a big shield should)
- should be practicaly unbreakable to non-axe weapons
- should break to axe weapons (and quickly at that, its not here to stop axes its to stop swords and pikes)
- shouldnt help against arrows (not much at least)

now once this is done, it is "unique" and then the price/skill req must be adjusted for its relative usefullness compared to other shields

Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Tai Feng on February 01, 2011, 05:28:58 am
I am no shield expert but isn't width very important with new shield changes? And huscarl is so much wider that I just don't see any other shield competing. I'd say that internal shield balance is worse than any other internal balance, by far. All shields pretty much have the same width.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Rextard on February 01, 2011, 04:09:05 pm
Shields need something, they are seriously lacking. They're sucking against range lately too, far too easy to shoot around. I would like to see speed upped since right now 2handers only need to trick you on their swings or move around you a little, and then do a tiny bit of their swing arc to hit! Moving your arm up and down does not take as long as moving one or both arms through a swing.

Anyone else get the feeling lately that 2h's can hit by stepping -just- past your raised shield before they swing into and through the shield? I find even if their swing looks like it would hit my shield, sometimes it just ignores it because they've stepped far enough.

I also want to see buckler prices lowered, and maybe they could get some of the benefits found here: http://www.myarmoury.com/review_aa_ebuckler.html
Since they're pretty hard to use. I would especially like to see catching thrusts for a brief second.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Xant on February 01, 2011, 04:40:14 pm
Yes, how horrible! You can be hit if someone sidesteps and you don't follow them with your shield! Gasp! Where art thou, forcefield!
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Rextard on February 01, 2011, 05:49:56 pm
   Xant, why bother responding if you aren't even going to try using your limited reading comprehension? -1

   I'm talking about them stepping past me, the weapon (as its quite long) hasn't actually passed the shield, though they have, and then their swing seemingly goes through the shield for a hit. If you still don't understand what I'm talking about: Their weapon line goes through the circle my shield represents, and is not blocked, because they stepped a bit past me. It shouldn't matter where they are, it should only matter where their weapon or weapon-head is.

  My issue is with where you have to follow them with your shield, not with the fact you have to aim your shield.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Camaris on February 01, 2011, 06:07:59 pm
Internal Balance:

OK make Huscarl the most expensive shield with the highest skill requirements cause it is by far the best shield you can have.
After you did this ask some fair shield users to make a balanced list for the rest.

If you want to do more: Redo stats to fit in current price system.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: UrLukur on February 01, 2011, 06:30:58 pm
Internal Balance:

OK make Huscarl the most expensive shield with the highest skill requirements cause it is by far the best shield you can have.
After you did this ask some fair shield users to make a balanced list for the rest.

If you want to do more: Redo stats to fit in current price system.

Why this type of shield as best shield. It doesn't take mr. obvious to find out those type of shields was phased out by superior design of shields ?

Imo, re-do stats of all shields.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: bruce on February 02, 2011, 08:12:48 pm
Anyone else get the feeling lately that 2h's can hit by stepping -just- past your raised shield before they swing into and through the shield? I find even if their swing looks like it would hit my shield, sometimes it just ignores it because they've stepped far enough.

Use a huscarl.
Title: Re: Internal shield balance
Post by: Tai Feng on February 02, 2011, 08:21:35 pm
Why this type of shield as best shield. It doesn't take mr. obvious to find out those type of shields was phased out by superior design of shields ?

Imo, re-do stats of all shields.

Original shield balance done by Taleworlds payed attention to game balance and roleplay, so Nords as infantry faction had best shields. In cRPG we don't have Nords and Rhodoks so item balance team has free hands.