cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Bulzur on August 31, 2011, 06:15:11 pm

Title: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Bulzur on August 31, 2011, 06:15:11 pm
I suggest to keep track of wich team put up wich ladder. And that this same team can't destroy their own ladder. This will prevent a lot of rage from "unreachable places" and will add more teamplay (now an infantry must stay back to cover the ladder and it's access).
The worst thing about those unreachable places, is that, most of the time, people on top of it can go down without even hurting themselves (thanks to map-makers adding mini-roofs, for the visual effects). And i doubt a "buff gravity" would really solve the "unreachable" problem.  :rolleyes:

The only counter-argument i can find is : "It can't be done."

If, indeed, it's impossible to implement, then i wouldn't mind removing completely ladders from Battle servers. And if this too was impossible, but you still agree to the unreachable places problem, then give a warning to people destroying ladders.

If all the above possibilities are stricly impossible, then i wouldn't mind taking personnaly a look to ALL the maps in the battle server current rotation, and add an invisible wall preventing access to ALL roofs and other places unreachable by foot.

Seriously... unreachable places are, in one word : LAME.

Feel free to post your support, adding arguments, or your disbelief to the good of this suggestion, again posting reasons for such a choice.

PS : Don't use the "Another range-hate" as a counter-argument, i myself have played 7 generations of archer on my main, but i still found this unreachable places plain stupid.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Paul on August 31, 2011, 06:26:47 pm
Sometimes a badly placed ladder has to be destroyed to make place for a better one or to prevent less observant teammates from wasting their time with it.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Bulzur on August 31, 2011, 06:42:00 pm
Sometimes a badly placed ladder has to be destroyed to make place for a better one or to prevent less observant teammates from wasting their time with it.

True. But it has become quite rare, and this is mainly true in siege, when you need to put it in a very good position so that it's not destroyed, etc...
In battles, it is very rare to have to "aim" where you put the ladder.

Siege equipments don't have upkeep in servers, so it doesn't matter that much if you put one wrongly, you'll do better next round, will learn from your mistake, and will never misplace a ladder in the same map again. Benefit.
Can you tell melees to "learn from their mistake" when there's campers on a roof ?
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Aleskander on September 01, 2011, 01:47:07 am
Greifers could easily just place a ladder in the doorway of one of the harder maps and ruin the game for the attackers. Maybe cut the damage into quarters, so that it would be rare for them to be destroyed by a mishit or something.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Adam_Bomb on September 01, 2011, 03:12:44 am
Yeah its just no fair when ranged isn't stuck out in the open where they can't be massacred by cav... 

edit: Just for the record, I'm a ladder pacifist. I rather like forcing people to come up my ladder into a hail of arrow and bolt fire  :D
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Cheap_Shot on September 04, 2011, 06:37:39 pm
Greifers could easily just place a ladder in the doorway of one of the harder maps and ruin the game for the attackers. Maybe cut the damage into quarters, so that it would be rare for them to be destroyed by a mishit or something.

The issue that the OP is referring to, is only a problem on battle servers. I imagine it wouldn't need to be implemented on siege. And in that case, putting up a ladder in a doorway wouldn't impede the other team, because they would be able to break it. You can only annoy your own team, and in that case you would probably get banned and it wouldn't be a problem after that. I don't see the downside.

Ladders are fun. They make the difference between "ok, we're on this map, so the only good place for archers is this one roof." and "Ok, we're on this map. Let's use a ladder and set up an ambush from a different roof this time to surprise them.". Removing ladders would just be one more step towards a stale general gameplay.
 
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: PieParadox on September 05, 2011, 02:48:08 am
I think that ladders should be removed from battle just because they seem to be useless imo... I never have any problems with unreachable spots on NA, since theyre normally too far to do anything useful or are badly placed...

However, they probably won't be removed... What if you held "F" to destroy a ladder instead of smacking it around? Kind of like siege map ladders? (Could be for everyone, or that teammates can only use F and not smack it).
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Bulzur on September 05, 2011, 06:33:19 pm
I agree to the fact that ladders bring some kind of strategy and such, but when they can be destroyed by their maker, the best strategy is roof-camping, and it's utterly lame and rage-inducing, and work-inducing for our dear admins. And we can't have that.
Speaking only in battle servers of course. It's rather well balanced on siege servers.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Phazey on September 05, 2011, 07:15:19 pm
Sometimes a badly placed ladder has to be destroyed to make place for a better one or to prevent less observant teammates from wasting their time with it.

The disadvantage of being unable to destroy badly placed ladders versus the advantage of making unreachable roofcamping almost impossible.

I'll gladly sacrifice the ability to destroy any badly placed ladders to get rid of the unreachable roof campers.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Warcat on September 05, 2011, 07:25:58 pm
It wouldn't get rid of roof campers, the ladders are often destroyed by the enemy team anyway so that the people on top have to come down.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 05, 2011, 07:29:22 pm
Yup. As an archer I support keeping our ladders intact as it forces the enemy to come up single file.

As long as there is range in this game, people will complain about it, even if we are removed the ability for archers to move.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Phazey on September 05, 2011, 07:31:55 pm
Roofcampers only have to come down once all other enemies are dead.

So it's generally not smart to do this. Once people figure out that only enemies can destroy ladders, this behaviour will change.

Removing ladders because some people abuse the mechanic to create unreachable roofs means giving up a great feature just because some people are bad sports. It's like giving in to the leechers and removing the upkeep system all together because of them.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Warcat on September 05, 2011, 07:53:24 pm
Roofcampers only have to come down once all other enemies are dead.

So it's generally not smart to do this. Once people figure out that only enemies can destroy ladders, this behaviour will change.

I doubt it, shielders might not  destroy them, but two handers would still be more likely to break the ladder and hide till they come down than try to charge up. And they're the ones that can take the ladder down in a couple hits.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Bulzur on September 06, 2011, 12:25:46 am
I doubt it, shielders might not  destroy them, but two handers would still be more likely to break the ladder and hide till they come down than try to charge up. And they're the ones that can take the ladder down in a couple hits.

Hopefully, the mentality will change.
And i prefer giving a chance to thoses 2h, to be smart and let shielders do the job.
And if 2h destroy ladders anyway, it wouldn't change anything from the current version, so it won't be worse.

We had this, today : And hell was it interesting lame.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

When range only has to care about range, numbers make the difference. Or wich ones are on the ground, vulnerable, and wich ones only cares about other range.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Warcat on September 06, 2011, 01:38:26 am
Yeah, looks like a typical battle to me, I'd be fine with this change. But I think it'll make no difference more often then not.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Cheap_Shot on September 09, 2011, 01:41:54 am
How about making ladders break if they stop moving before the 90 degree mark? Any legit ladder will have it traveling further then 90 degrees to form a path to walk up. Using ladders to block doors usually makes them stop before going further then 90 degrees. If they fell back down and broke in that case I think it might make sense and solve the door blocking issue. I'd have to test it to know though.

Then you could have it so you cant break your own ladders as well as teammates, and anyone using them in tight spaces to grief their team would have their ladders break.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Dehitay on September 09, 2011, 06:42:18 am
If all the above possibilities are stricly impossible, then i wouldn't mind taking personnaly a look to ALL the maps in the battle server current rotation, and add an invisible wall preventing access to ALL roofs and other places unreachable by foot.
I highly doubt they're going to let you remove access to roofs. However, if you're really willing to personally look at all the maps in rotation, you could probly convince them to let you add drop ladders for every campable area. Since drop ladders can't be destroyed, anywhere they're set up will become reachable. However, this would also mean nobody has to bring ladders to battle and has more free slots.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on September 09, 2011, 09:50:33 am
i support the major idea that players cant demage team ladders. 1+ on that
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Joker86 on September 09, 2011, 05:01:14 pm
Oh nice, the really old suggestion came up again.

Still support it!


If you change this I would have another reason to start cRPG again. And please, PLEASE, change ladders back to work like before the upkeep patch! I don't know if you fixed it in the last few months, but when I stopped playing ladders tended to either stop before they even crossed the 90°-barrier, and if you really managed to place them on a roof they went trhough it and stopped 2m under it, rendering them useless.

The old ladder system where a ladder had "noclip" on until it crossed 90° was much better. Together with the inability to destroy your teams ladders it could make the game enjoyable again.

(I already mentioned that in my opinion everyone should ALWAYS be accessable, not only at the end of a round. I don't see any reson allowing some people (ranged fighters) to be "immune" against other people (melee fighters) for 90% of the time, only because of their choice of classes. That's retarded. If I had a server I would kick everyone who is shooting from a roof without ladder. Yes, this would require you to check regularly if your ladder still exists. Fair play, you know...)
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Knute on September 09, 2011, 08:38:57 pm
On the 90 degree idea:  What if someone on the attacking team (accidentally or otherwise) places a ladder parallel to the front of a door so the ladder passes 90 degrees and settles in a way that blocks off the middle of the doorway making it impassible for the attackers?  It would really suck for the attackers and require an admin to change the map if they wanted to keep their multiplier.  I just see it becoming like the indestructible c-site problem all over again, creating the need for more hands on refereeing at all hours of the day.

This is a battle map issue so how about keeping it contained there.  Why not modify the maps that are in rotation?  Add stairs, stacks of crates and perm ladders to commonly used unreachable camp spots.  Out of the 60 or so battle maps in rotation, which ones have this problem?  Make a list and maybe someone could attempt to fix them.   Plus, isn't this why the flag system is in place?  Why not just move out of a roof campers range and wait for the flag?
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: Cheap_Shot on September 09, 2011, 11:53:10 pm
On the 90 degree idea:  What if someone on the attacking team (accidentally or otherwise) places a ladder parallel to the front of a door so the ladder passes 90 degrees and settles in a way that blocks off the middle of the doorway making it impassible for the attackers?

How likely is that? First off, the person who did it would probably be banned. Second of all, how many maps have a single choke point that could be blocked with a ladder that passes 90 degrees? There is almost always a way around, especially on battle maps. Usually several. I don't see how it would become a problem. Most attempts to grief team mates would end in the ladder just breaking, and anyone getting the ladder to go past 90 degrees, people could just climb up it, or go another route while the offender is being banned.

I'm not sure what the minimum angle the ladder needs to be at for people to walk up it, but maybe make that angle the no break point instead of 90 degrees.
Title: Re: Make ladders undestroyable by owner's team
Post by: MrShovelFace on September 10, 2011, 12:21:00 am
indestructable ladders = ultimate troll item

RIP torch