cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Rheinhardt on January 24, 2011, 12:20:22 am
-
The new upkeep system does a great job keeping the flamberge/sniperxbow/tincan/platedcharger main battle knights from dominating the field, but has reduced the ability to play a specialized character with one really good item and a lot of mediocre gear. For example, every time I take out my character in full kit (knightly arming sword, military hammer, knightly heater shield, great lance, courser, green tunic over mail, open salet, leather gloves) I brace myself for the nigh-inevitable thousand or so repair bill. Its pretty unprofitable unless I am running a multiplier, and if I'm playing Battle I might lose that horse right off the start to a lucky footman and be paying for pain. Its making my medium cavalry character not terribly fun to play. However the problem doesn't just affect me. Players in a team on a losing streak are forced to downscale their gear, sometimes making them ineffective at their intended role. Meanwhile the other team ramps up their hardware and with a good streak going it becomes hard to overcome them without autobalance intervening. And since this can turn matches into steamrollers, the problem becomes an overlooked team-level game-breaker.
Naturally I've considered a few solutions. I'm pretty lethal (if only because I'm opportunistic) with this build, but we seem to have moved away from kill-based rewards in favor of the multiplier. I can survive to the end of the round often enough, but repairs happen regardless of if I live or die, and become more likely if the game rolls on (even if I die in the first minute). I can grind up money and then take my horse out when the multiplier is high or the map is right, but I already ground for all the money to buy a courser and mail, and it just doesn't seem to pay off to grind to use what you grind to get. All my fellow cav players surely feel this pain, but making something that only helps cavalry isn't good for balance.
However I think I have reached a solution that favors no class specifically, encourages specialist players, yet keeps the abuse-limiting upkeep system. If players could designate one piece of gear, say my horse, or a plate wearer's armor, or a crossbowman's siege crossbow, to only incur half the usual upkeep when the dice choose it, players could use vanilla hardware save one nice piece of gear that defines their role without breaking the bank. Meanwhile since one pays 50% instead of no upkeep, the balancing effect of upkeep remains, since the best of the best (ex. plated chargers) will still cost a large amount of money. Players can economize around their chosen critical item to match their multiplier, but won't have to abandon the role they worked so hard to play when their team loses a round or two.
Implementation, at least to the user, can be quite simple. Already players set up a default inventory, which presumably saves some information on the character. On the c-rpg character sheet under "My Inventory", a new drop-down menu could let players choose their critial slot; body armor, horse, or first weapon. The player then can choose whatever they wish to fill those slots and the upkeep roll will check if the slot has the -50% modifier when checking how much gold to deduct. So I can designate my horse primary, select my courser mid game, and instead of a 990 repair bill, pay a 495. This brings the cost in line with the rest of my hardware so I can enjoy my vanilla character's one shining ability. Likewise, other players can save themselves nasty repair costs on high end weapons and armor. Plate-wearing infantry? Sniper crossbowmen able to wear more than cloth armor? Horse archers actually wearing shirts? Hey, I'm not going to judge how you choose to enjoy the feature. And that's how it keeps balance from breaking; incorporating freedom to choose your niche with embracing the main-battle-knight preventing upkeep system.
So what do you think?
-
I'd say this might be a good idea for the first weapon slot. That way everybody gets 1 weapon of their choice.
-
That would be one of the three choices, yes. First weapon slot, body armor, or horse. Any reason why you'd not want reduced upkeep for the horse or armor? A tin can with medium weapons and no horse seems fair enough to me.
-
Its not a terrible idea, but I would still favor the current upkeep system if they implemented a kill bounty. Being rewarded an instant 100g for a kill would suplement some of the repair costs.
I know. Those guys getting getting 27-2 would get an extra 2700 bucks under this system. but dont they deserve that? those are the guys helping win most of the rounds. even though I average something like 8-5 now, I would still appreciate the extra 800 gold I get for participating in the main course of the fighting. this also help the people who get auto teamed every damn round and constantly get the 1x muliplier all damn day no matter how well they do.
Even 50 gold per kill would help.
Its an incentive.
-
Don't get me wrong. As much as I'd like kill bounties, this isn't a thread for discussing them.
-
Hey look, it's another Reinhardt- I mean Rheinhardt. Anyway, I really like this suggestion. However, someone could use a plated charger with much more ease if it were implemented, same with players like "MASTAR KILLA" running around with one weapon and no armor on siege...
-
He would be able to use a plated charger, sure. But that horse still comes at a huge premium; although it might be half what it used to be, the upkeep is still significant and still discourages its use, especially with equally powerful armor. And there's little we can do about nudists with super-swords on a meta level. People will 'game' the game regardless, and this suggestion isn't to address that. Rather, it is to address players pushed into fighting naked with their super-sword simply to break even on upkeep! That 50% saved from the sword upkeep can now go into getting a little armor, or else MASTAR KILLA can continue to be an idiot as the only fleshy pincushion facing down the archers.
I'm glad you really like the suggestion. Positive feedback is critical to getting suggestions implemented.
-
He would be able to use a plated charger, sure. But that horse still comes at a huge premium; although it might be half what it used to be, the upkeep is still significant and still discourages its use, especially with equally powerful armor. And there's little we can do about nudists with super-swords on a meta level. People will 'game' the game regardless, and this suggestion isn't to address that. Rather, it is to address players pushed into fighting naked with their super-sword simply to break even on upkeep! That 50% saved from the sword upkeep can now go into getting a little armor, or else MASTAR KILLA can continue to be an idiot as the only fleshy pincushion facing down the archers.
I'm glad you really like the suggestion. Positive feedback is critical to getting suggestions implemented.
You make a good point there, Rheinhardt ^^.
Someone who uses the plated charger would have to model their build after it, too. This further discourages usage of it.
-
but has reduced the ability to play a specialized character with one really good item and a lot of mediocre gear.
BS. You can equip yourself with about 30-35K of gear easily and make some cash on top. That falls under the definition of "one really good item and a lot of mediocre gear". Top tier weapons are in the 10K ballpark, that leaves 20-25K for armour/doodads which you can easily upkeep.
-
Do you have any proof to support that 30-35k worth of gear earns money in a 1x multiplier?
-
no you can't with the 1x multiplier. But no is so bad they always only have the x1. At average a player has x2.
I use 35-40k eq and makes money. The idea is bad because it invites to one expensive superweapon and then going around naked.
so... bad idea.
-
First, players either win or lose. This is fifty fifty, and personal skill has little to do with it. If you lose, you get a 1x multiplier. At any given time, half the players have a 1x multiplier. So to say the average player has a x2 multiplier is false.
Second, you may use 40k in gear and make money. That's great for you. Half the players on the server cannot make money using 30k worth of gear, because they have a 1x multiplier (as you have affirmed already). Since the losing team is using worse gear and the winning team is using better gear, half the players will continue to be handicapped compared to you until autobalance shuffles the teams.
How does the idea invite one to go around with an expensive superweapon and then be naked? We've already determined idiots will be idiots no matter what, so what actual incentive is put into place to have a superweapon (which Bruce asserts only costs 10k) and then run around naked? A player trying to earn the most money wouldn't bother with an expensive superweapon; with or without the 50% reduction in upkeep, it's still hindering his motive. And if he's simply trying to be a high agility fighter, he has no new reason not to wear any armor.
You can hardly say it's a bad idea if none of your reasons are factual or relevant.
-
Bad idea. Stop trying to circumvent upkeep.
Also, doesn't matter. chadz won't do it.
-
You don't specify reasons to either claim, nor am I circumventing upkeep. I am only suggesting players have a single 50% off coupon. They still have to pay for everything, but can now budget around one item being less expensive than normal.
-
This is my standard gear for horse archer at which I'm not losing gold (earning very little over time in fact), tested over a period of two/three weeks :
Courser - 19.800
Studded Leather Coat - 2.700
Leather boots - 300
Strong Bow - 6.600
Khergit arrows (x2) - 2.400
Bastard Sword - 3.100
TOTAL - 37.300
I don't think your idea is bad at all, but I think its unneccessary.
-
My equipment is a bit over 60k, and by the time I retire I will have made enough to buy the most expensive armor piece in every category (gonna roll black armor with mass IF :D).
-
My alt is losing money with 13k worth of hardware...
-
If you are losing constantly, I think I was breaking even at around 18k or so. But that doesn't happen. You won't always be at x1 and the law of averages makes the upkeep somewhere around 30-32k in my experience, though mileage may vary. You need to run around naked till you get 10-15k gold saved up. At that point the bad runs wont break you and the good runs will make you enough money to break even.
Upkeep system doesn't need another variable to balance around.
-
First, players either win or lose. This is fifty fifty, and personal skill has little to do with it. If you lose, you get a 1x multiplier. At any given time, half the players have a 1x multiplier. So to say the average player has a x2 multiplier is false.
You're right. The other team is often running around with x3, x4, and x5, which puts the average above x2 :P
-
The great thing about upkeep is that it makes people prefer medium tier stuff over top tier. The new wpf system favors hybrids over specialists. These changes aim to make the playing field more varied instead of seeing the few basic char types everywhere.
This suggestion is totally against the anti-specialization trend that's going on. It would further encourage the heroes spawning naked with their triple-heirloomed super sword and nerf the medium tier guy that's trying to be useful to his team by carrying a basic shield and spear for support and some other mid-tier weapon for finishing touches.
-
The great thing about upkeep is that it makes people prefer medium tier stuff over top tier. The new wpf system favors hybrids over specialists. These changes aim to make the playing field more varied instead of seeing the few basic char types everywhere.
This suggestion is totally against the anti-specialization trend that's going on. It would further encourage the heroes spawning naked with their triple-heirloomed super sword and nerf the medium tier guy that's trying to be useful to his team by carrying a basic shield and spear for support and some other mid-tier weapon for finishing touches.
which hybrid when u almost ruined xbow class?
-
Thrower+1h+shield
Archer+polearm
Greatsword+Halfswording
Spear+shield+1h
Crossbow+2h
Just to mention a few. And you can even make a hybrid and still use only one class for the given map. When I was crossbow+pole I'd just pick crossbow and cheap backup gear for when I was shooting mostly, and only pole when I was meleeing mostly. For special occassions I'd take both.
-
I don't think it's a good idea.
I do fine with my peasant shirt, shoes and hat.
Just don't be armor reliant. You'll be fine.
-
Just don't be armor reliant. You'll be fine.
^ Horse.
This suggestion is totally against the anti-specialization trend that's going on.
I must disagree. Anti-specialization measures thus far have been good, keeping powerbuilds and one-trick pwnies down. This suggestion does nothing to the changes in WPF, nor does it go across the board and reduce all upkeep rates. Players can still be of whatever mix of roles they want. However your example (who sounds exactly like my build sans horse) suffers under the current system because he cannot develop any further than vanilla equipment. Imagine if instead of wearing low level mail he was able to wear plate because he had a 50% discount on it. He can't wear high end plate all the time because he's not getting his armor slot for free, but he can save up and invest for one good piece of gear. Or maybe he'd rather keep wearing mail and get a horse at 50%. Now he's effective light cavalry and can fight even in the 1x multiplier when his team is hurting and needs something to turn the game around. Or he can keep wearing his mail and break out a big poleaxe at 50%, turning from a support trooper to the tin-can killer needed to kill enemies with a high multiplier.
It would further encourage the heroes spawning naked with their triple-heirloomed super sword and nerf the medium tier guy that's trying to be useful to his team by carrying a basic shield and spear for support and some other mid-tier weapon for finishing touches.
As I've explained, there's just no reason how this encourages 'hero' players (who now face better armored enemies and more powerful archers, discouraging them) nor nerfs a medium tier guy being useful. He can now be more useful!
-
I also think crpg is fine without this. Just that if it were implemented it should be for 1 weapon slot to deter everyone from using it for blackarmor or armored horse. Are they still more expensive then mid-lvl stuff with 50% off? Sure, but the general point behind upkeep was to stop people from tincanning around (or plated charger, etc.). People who use the expensive stuff now either have a ton of gold stockpiled or have to play most of the time in cheaper gear to save up gold for tincan funtime.
-
Maybe some of the counter-arguments need to be elaborated on because I still don't see what's wrong with the suggestion. Would -25% be more to people's liking?
-
I fully support the idea, I have a straw hat, linen tunic, heavy lance, and courser and can't afford to keep my courser "repaired".
-
If I'm following my detractor's logic, with 50% off the horse upkeep you'll just go around naked on a warhorse.
-
You need to run around naked
Upkeep in a nutshell.