cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Munchkin9 on August 21, 2011, 08:58:34 pm
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Though I have not yet played the new Mercenary mod, I did make a character to look at the items and noticed something interesting: knives do a lot of damage on thrusts. And I thought to myself: say that is a pretty good idea because it would not be unbalanced knives have extremely short range and can't block so them doing a lot of damage would not matter in a straight fight. However it would allow for some interesting back stabbing, something which those ninja types might enjoy. With their current zero slot it also means that I could grab it and use it when I want to guarantee a kill when sneaking up behind people.
My main reason for this is that at the moment knives are completely useless. Yes I know they are a peasants weapon so they 'should' be useless but that isn't true. When I'm a peasant I use a practice longsword or something like that, which still does plenty of damage and can actually block so I wouldn't ever consider taking a knife as a weapon. So what's the point of having a weapon that nobody will or should use?
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Daggers/Knives are nowhere near useless. Aim for the head and make sure you invested in PS and Athletics and a dagger is an amazing weapon. Footwork combined with it's blisteringly high speed means that you can actually outswing those with slow weapons and dance around those with faster 1handers. It's only issue is the fact that it glances at close range (daggers are designed for close range) but i think that's an engine limitation.
I've killed people in plate/plated helms with daggers before and i'm nowhere near a stellar player. The weapon has a very specific niche, but when you learn how to use them they are amazingly handy.
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Well, knifes are backup weapons, so if everything goes wrong, then you do not have to fight with your bare hands.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=covH4voKukw&feature=feedrec_grec_index
'Look out, 'es got a knife!
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Daggers were made to pierce and kill people in plate in close range :( Instead they do very little damage.
Ylca, Don't pretend and say they are good as is. Why get a dagger if you could use the espada, have more thrust, more everything -- and block!
ffs just give daggers like 33 pierce. Let them stab, they can't block. Don't leave things nerfed when you could create more fun and niche classes by buffing other things up to par by making them good at something.
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Daggers were made to pierce and kill people in plate in close range :( Instead they do very little damage.
Ylca, Don't pretend and say they are good as is. Why get a dagger if you could use the espada, have more thrust, more everything -- and block!
ffs just give daggers like 33 pierce. Let them stab, they can't block. Don't leave things nerfed when you could create more fun and niche classes by buffing other things up to par by making them good at something.
I already pointed out there was a problem with glancing. Why get a dagger instead of a long espada? Because 112 is light years faster than 103 speed and with a decent WPF and ATH you can beat someone silly and dart back out of their range before they've noticed what happened. Much like the katana the dagger is for a very particular play style.
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Daggers were made to pierce and kill people in plate in close range
LOL HAH NO, daggers were more certainly NOT made to pierce plate. Daggers and dirks were a weapon of last resort....peasants and grunts may use daggers on a downed knight to dog pile and finish him off, they certainly werent stabbing into his plate armor.
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LOL HAH NO, daggers were more certainly NOT made to pierce plate. Daggers and dirks were a weapon of last resort....peasants and grunts may use daggers on a downed knight to dog pile and finish him off, they certainly werent stabbing into his plate armor.
Not just peasants, but nearly everyone on the battle field had a dagger to stab downed knights. They'd open the visor to see if it was someone important (to keep for ransom). If he wasn't, they'd stab him in the face with their dagger.
Funny thing with a dagger build though, it requires so much athletics it hardly leaves room for PS. BUT, chambering becomes so much easier with a high speed weapon and high wpf.
I could go on the duel server and chamber a few hits in a row, get a few hits in and then got killed because they started holding attacks.
I'm in favor of increasing the stab damage on the long dagger to something in the 30's.
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LOL HAH NO, daggers were more certainly NOT made to pierce plate. Daggers and dirks were a weapon of last resort....peasants and grunts may use daggers on a downed knight to dog pile and finish him off, they certainly werent stabbing into his plate armor.
made to pierce and kill people in plate
I did not say "To pierce plate". I know, semantics & grammar.
Back to the point. They were used to get into the weak points of armor and kill. Something other weapons ~could not do easily~. They should not be a worthless weapon in game taking space up, when you could instead make them a niche useful weapon. For example, after knocking someone down you could pull your dagger out and stab them in that duration if it withdrew faster and stabbed for more.
I already pointed out there was a problem with glancing. Why get a dagger instead of a long espada? Because 112 is light years faster than 103 speed and with a decent WPF and ATH you can beat someone silly and dart back out of their range before they've noticed what happened. Much like the katana the dagger is for a very particular play style.
That speed is not that big of a deal. Way exaggerating it's in game application of speed.
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Ever played a 3/33 or 3/36 Build?With 11 or 12 athletics and a shitload of wpf?Try to use a knife or a Dagger with it.Run up to people, stab, kill.
It´s almost like lancing.
Knifes dont really need a buff or such builds would become...too effective.
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Daggers are not completely useless. With 5 ps and 0 wpf I managed to kill 3 roof-camping archers and the 4th one jumped down to his death. One of the funniest moments I've had with this game :D.
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If daggers got super high pierce damage you'd see loads of people with bucklers and daggers running around lol stabbing everything...
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Way exaggerating it's in game application of speed.
What's your WPF and STR?
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If daggers got super high pierce damage you'd see loads of people with bucklers and daggers running around lol stabbing everything...
That is sadly a very good point. And will quickly lead me to complain about shields again especially bucklers. But avoiding that: I think I slight boost in damage (maybe only to low 30s) would still be a welcomed boost and the short range would keep it from being used with bucklers too much.
And btw everyone carried knives around as a last resort if they lost hold of their weapon or if it broke. Killing people that were down would probably only happen after a battle was over. Ironically enough this is something the Brytanwalda mod reproduces nicely. Though the lack of 2-handed swords in it turns me off slightly. What do you want, I know what I like.
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iirc in the mercenaries mod there are some dagger with some kind of backstab ability that gives them the ability to oneshot if you hit the enemy on the back, this could be a great feature added to crpg and could simply negate their effectiveness with a shield due to the nature of the buff(they would be nearly useless in normal fights), in the mercenaries mod they aren't overpowered(they're not really much used beside to have some funny moments)and without the ability to block a frontal attack would be equal to death
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iirc in the mercenaries mod there are some dagger with some kind of backstab ability that gives them the ability to oneshot if you hit the enemy on the back,
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As a Spy player, I approve.
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a guaranteed 1shot kill is too powerful, but something like +100%-200% dmg would be cool
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a guaranteed 1shot kill is too powerful, but something like +100%-200% dmg would be cool
Well, if you give it a cooldown, a special knife that can't be used with shields and relies on this ability, I say it's alright.
You couldn't block with it anyway.
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Sounds a bit too much of artificial game balance to me.
If you backstab someone, then you have an adventage already. This is no fantasy RPG where the rogues (bad depiction, mostly they are just stupid assassins) need a burst damage to kill some mages.
As for the buckler with dagger combo, i use it with my siege ladder setup, and the first thing i do, after the ladde is deployed, is to look for another weapon.
You can kill someone with it, but it is not that easy and takes some stabs.
But after all it is only a short knife, while the others have big swords. So why you should have an advantage over them with a tiny dagger?
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Well, I'm lobbying hard for a dagger that can't be used with shields but has 33 pierce. I can't model worth a damn -- and have been looking for suitable ones but haven't found any good stiletto/dirk models.
Not being able to block, only chamber, would make a very skill intensive & balanced weapon imo.
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Well, I'm lobbying hard for a dagger that can't be used with shields but has 33 pierce. I can't model worth a damn -- and have been looking for suitable ones but haven't found any good stiletto/dirk models.
Not being able to block, only chamber, would make a very skill intensive & balanced weapon imo.
For what possible reason would a dagger not be able to be used with a shield? It would make no sense.
"This is the assassination dagger, you can't use a shield with it because- errr- ummm. It's really heavy?"
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For what possible reason would a dagger not be able to be used with a shield? It would make no sense.
"This is the assassination dagger, you can't use a shield with it because- errr- ummm. It's really heavy?"
Heh, many thing don't make any sense in this game.
For what purpose can players turn around like neutron stars ?
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Heh, many thing don't make any sense in this game.
For what purpose can players turn around like neutron stars ?
Valid counterpoint. Noted.
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For what possible reason would a dagger not be able to be used with a shield? It would make no sense.
"This is the assassination dagger, you can't use a shield with it because- errr- ummm. It's really heavy?"
Because in real life you would use two hands to drive the dagger in. Pretty sure that was self explanatory.
Way more leverage and damage if used without a shield, y'know.
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Because in real life you would use two hands to drive the dagger in. Pretty sure that was self explanatory.
Way more leverage and damage if used without a shield, y'know.
use 1 arm to put around their neck so you can continue to stab'em in the liver/kidney without them turning around to defend themselves
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Pretty much every reason to not use a shield with a dagger.
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I've suggested this before a couple of times. Would be very cool and suit the trolling spirit of the game, and punish those zombie unaware archers.
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This would make knives actually fun and interesting instead of a joke weapon.
I would not mind high tier knives.
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agreed... i've just been running around on my assassin alt with long dagger... it's so sad when you sneak up on and archer and stab him in the head... then stab him in the head again... then slash him in the stomach... and then get shot by his friend
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So I'm going to get flamed but I have found myself wishing that the Khyber knife could block. FIRST: let me give a reason why. I am a heavy bastard sword user. I love my HBS. Sometimes I also use the highland claymore if I'm feeling a little slower. However I have noted that these weapons have a HUGE, and I mean HUGE disadvantage in tight locations such as tunnels, in between buildings and on walls. All too often my weapon hits against the walls. Which is fine btw, perfectly understandable (although some sort of sound notification would be nice a ting, clang, poke or 'fuck all my weapons done got stuck in a wall'). So in trying to solve this I have been trying to bring knives with me to use in these situations. I have ran into the obvious problems mentioned above I can't block and I do shit all damage. And I refuse grabbing a short sword as it goes on my HBS slot and that is UNACCEPTABLE, no really it is. So ya a knife with blocking plox ;D.
But in more realistic discussion: I think a timer for back stab would be too artificial and maybe even the back stab feature. Instead (and tell me if it is not possible) but can the 'sharpness' of knives be increased so that glances near never happen with them. I know this isn't realistic but it feels kind of nice. I mean if I'm brave enough to charge into combat with a knife the game should take pity on me and give me a little help. No?
I noticed this when I was dueling to practice my knife skills (btw knife v. knife fights are so much fun) and I found my self glancing on everything even cloth and leather. This is because when knife fighting moving around is extremely important even more so then normal so very often glances will occur if you aren't standing JUST RIGHT.
Anyway I'm ranting, thanks for listening/reading. Off to bed now. Night ;)
-Munchkin9
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atleast buff dagger to 30p, atm if u wanna assassin someone espada is better, fail rp
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atleast buff dagger to 30p, atm if u wanna assassin someone espada is better, fail rp
Last I checked assassins usually killed victims off the battlefield? If I wanted to assassinate someone on the battlefield, I would sure as well use a larger weapon. A dagger can be hidden, but that is useless if you are in battle.