The whole short sword line.
Well, for the basic versions i can see some tiers, but the masterpiece ones are nearly identically.(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
So in the worst case i have to pay 3.5k gold more for 5 cm more blade lenght.
Nerfing the nordic sword, you guys inadvertently made the knightly arming sword the better deal.
Nordic Champion Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce
Knightly Arming Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce
At baseline, they have the same speed, same length and the Knightly has 1 less cut but 3 more pierce. Fully heir-loomed, though, they have the same cut damage yet the knightly has more pierce and is 1,000 gold cheaper.
Proposal: Nerf the pierce of Nordic Champion and Sarranid Cav sword down -2 to 19 and 17 baseline respectively. Buff the cut damage at baseline and/or at masterwork to 38 and 39 cut respectively. These are exclusively chopping swords, and their damage should reflect that. To keep the Grosse Messer viable, bump its speed back up to 100 or 101 baseline like it was before. Speed is perfect on Champion and Cav swords.
In short: (heirloomed)
Knightly Arming; 36 cut @ 99 speed
Grosse Messer; 38 cut @102/103 speed
Nordic Champion; 38 cut @99 speed
Sarranid Cav; 39 cut @97 speed
Maintains more dmg = less speed. Knightly arming will do less cut but more pierce, so will be more rounded like the espada or side sword. Grosse Messer will be faster for close-in work, as it was before. Champion will slash better but have even less viable frontal stab. Sarranid cav will have a little more damage for such a slow speed and a futile stab.
Heavy Great Sword
weight 2.75
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 120
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Great Sword
weight 2.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 93
weapon length 120
swing damage 37, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Not sure if this was an oversight or just part of balance, but something that has Heavy in its name and weighs .25 more probably shouldn't be 1 speed faster.
(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
2 damage for 4 speed, insane.
Great berdiche is shorter thanks to animations you know ? War cleaver still do fine, it's long enough and deal crapload of damage.
Great Bardiche is a 2h weapon.
Ouch. But it's slower and shorter.
Don't know how to do that fancy spoiler button thing, but:
Highland Claymore
9890 Gold
90 speed
120 length
43 cut
25 pierce
I don't have any idea what the higher powers of CRPG have in mind for the claymore, if it is going to be slower it should have greater reach, and if it is going to be smaller it should be swung more quickly.
I would like to see smaller war cleaver in game. Something with about 100 reach.
Um... why?
Is it OP and broken? I only really see Wallace and I running around with it. Ever.
What you have against item variety ? :shock:
I would like to see smaller war cleaver in game. Something with about 100 reach.
Added my take on the Claymore, feel free to give comments and/or suggestions on it. (Especially interested in Tired's opinion as a Claymore user)
I just bought the cleaver and I have no problems getting kills with it, it feels alot a like flamberge. I one shot most things with it. I don't see any problems there.
Length: 120 -> 135 (130?)
sorry but we're not adding invisible reach. It was 110 before by mistake, the model is 120 long
The whole short sword line.
Length: 120 -> 135 (130?)
sorry but we're not adding invisible reach. It was 110 before by mistake, the model is 120 long
That's a shame, I thought it would have been possible to edit the model. I will update my post later on and come up with another idea.
Definitely needs to be looked at, thanks for your contribution.
milar statistics to the war cleaver except that it sports a "bonus against shields" modifier which makes it a lot more useful than the war cleaver.4 points in reach and 3 in speed makes big difference."Bonus against shields" for war cleaver will do this weapon OP.
4 points in reach and 3 in speed makes big difference."Bonus against shields" for war cleaver will do this weapon OP.
Well, 24 range is a big thing.
As someone who owns most two handers I don't own the cleaver because the dadao makes it obsolete same speed and range and price basically but not.unbalanced
If u really want a laff compare the standard bastard sword to a katana u will realize the bastard sword is far superior due to increased effective range due to usable thrust damage better reach nearly same speed extremely low upkeep
Fail, bastard sword deal less damage and is noticeably slower. It's upkeep was increased. If anything BS is worse than Katana.
Heavy Great Sword
weight 2.75
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 120
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Great Sword
weight 2.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 93
weapon length 120
swing damage 37, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Not sure if this was an oversight or just part of balance, but something that has Heavy in its name and weighs .25 more probably shouldn't be 1 speed faster.
Yep, nerf it. Or nerf both of them! to 90 and 91 respectively.
Nerfing the nordic sword, you guys inadvertently made the knightly arming sword the better deal.
Nordic Champion Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce
Knightly Arming Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce
At baseline, they have the same speed, same length and the Knightly has 1 less cut but 3 more pierce. Fully heir-loomed, though, they have the same cut damage yet the knightly has more pierce and is 1,000 gold cheaper.
Proposal: Nerf the pierce of Nordic Champion and Sarranid Cav sword down -2 to 19 and 17 baseline respectively. Buff the cut damage at baseline and/or at masterwork to 38 and 39 cut respectively. These are exclusively chopping swords, and their damage should reflect that. To keep the Grosse Messer viable, bump its speed back up to 100 or 101 baseline like it was before. Speed is perfect on Champion and Cav swords.
In short: (heirloomed)
Knightly Arming; 36 cut @ 99 speed
Grosse Messer; 38 cut @102/103 speed
Nordic Champion; 38 cut @99 speed
Sarranid Cav; 39 cut @97 speed
Maintains more dmg = less speed. Knightly arming will do less cut but more pierce, so will be more rounded like the espada or side sword. Grosse Messer will be faster for close-in work, as it was before. Champion will slash better but have even less viable frontal stab. Sarranid cav will have a little more damage for such a slow speed and a futile stab.
maybe just nerf heirloom modifiers for swords so 1 base damage count?
I would prefer fixed modifiers. Now with the relative ones an inferior weapon becomes even more inferior.
As you can see, the Great Axe is cheaper, weighs less, is faster, and has bonus vs shields.
The War Cleaver's only advantage is being longer. They share the same damage. Currently the more intelligent choice is the Great Axe all the way and the War Cleaver is only used by stubborn people that have a hard-on for the style (I am guilty of this).
If the War Cleaver would be OP with bonus vs shields, then I guess that means the Great Axe is currently OP since it's the better weapon.
REPOST IN A MORE APPROPRIATE TOPICJust name a 2h sword with 150-20=130 reach, 95 speed, and a price of 2258 gold. All swords are either fast but significantly shorter or slow and slightly shorter. The cheapest 2h sword (a bastard sword) has 30 less reach (a HUGE disadvantage) at ~30% higher price.
I think that the War Spear in general is kinda a dumb weapon at the moment. There are two hander swords that do just as much pierce damage with thrust, with just slightly shorter range and slightly slower, but with the addition of huge cut damage on swings.
I think the War Spear should have a little higher thrust damage, just so it's fulfilling a niche, instead of just being a less effective sword.
(it outranges every 2h sword except the flamberge which is absolutely incomparable in terms of price)
No, you're forgetting animations affecting the length. 2h swords for the most part out reach most polearms by a fair deal.No, they don't.
No, they don't.
Animations + polearm grip make the actual polearm length ~20 cm shorter than the length you see in the weapon characteristics.
And the animations for 2hers give them an effective +80 length on thrusts (different numbers for other swings, but still 2hers gain reach on every swing rather than lose it) than what you see in the weapon characteristics. This has been known since beta after many many tests that are still buried somewhere in the TW forums.In Native, it does. In cRPG, it does not (due to modified stab animation).
In Native, it does. In cRPG, it does not (due to modified stab animation).
War spear has its own niche. It's a cheap, perfectly spammable, long (it outranges every 2h sword except the flamberge which is absolutely incomparable in terms of price) polearm.
In Native, it does. In cRPG, it does not (due to modified stab animation).
Just here to remind everyone that this topic is about weapons that should be changed in order to make them worthwhile and not advantages and disadvantages of a specific weapon category, thanks.
Espada Eslavona:
5,890 gold
weight 1
requirement 10
spd rtng 100
weapon length 90
swing damage 26, cut
thrust damage 29 pierce
Gen1= 100spd 28cut 31pierce
Gen2= 101spd 29cut 32pierce
Gen3= 102spd 29cut 33pierce
Side Sword:
8,922 gold
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Gen1= 101spd 34cut 28pierce
Gen2= 102spd 35cut 29pierce
Gen3= 103spd 36cut 29pierce
Kinda unfair, espada eslavona gets:
is cheaper, a bit better pierce
And side sword gets:
lower requirement, a bit bigger spd rtng, a not small bit bigger length, better dmg,
Think about it, because 3k in price doesnt matter, pierce in 1h isnt so important, but +5lenght, better speed retange, lower req and better dmg is too much!
Think, what weapon would you choose? 3k~~ in price is... 150~~ more upkeep... well... i would choose side sword!
Think about it, because 3k in price doesnt matter, pierce in 1h isnt so important, but +5lenght, better speed retange, lower req and better dmg is too much!LOL, serioulsy? The price is the governing factor when you are choosing a 1hander because you have to pay for a combination of a good weapon and a good shield. If you are playing as a 2hander/polearm, you are paying for a good weapon only or for a good weapon+crappy shield. For example, you have to pay 15380 for a side sword+huscarl shield (and even more for a side sword+buckler which is the only viable combination for reenacting). That's much more than the price of the most expensive polearm and almost as high as the price of the flamberge. It means, you could afford worse armor than your 2hander/polearm opponent with the same budget.
Hafted Blade
weight 2.25
requirement 8
spd rtng 95
weapon length 132
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 20 pierce
Penalty with Shield
2,450 gold
Vs
Long Hafted Knobbed Mace
weight 2.8
requirement 12
spd rtng 95
weapon length 133
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 21 blunt
Knockdown
3,328 gold
Why should you go cut when you can go blunt, knockdown and same speed range for a little extra gold?
By the shape hafted blade (Not the longer version) wouldn't be bad as a bonus to shields weapon since the only 2 axes polearm has available cheap are very slow... say something like this would be better imo:
Hafted Blade
weight 3
requirement 10
spd rtng 94
weapon length 132
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 20 pierce
Penalty with Shield
Bonus against shield
(Don't forget polearms get -22 range from grip so it won't be that long)
Lol no one point does not make a bit of difference at all, especially cut. Certainty not 1200 worth of difference.
You clearly have no idea how damage treshold work. Especially for 1h. It's not simple +1 damage dealt.
Speaking of which, I was wondering myself the other day how exactly does that work.
Let's say a polearm has +7dmg over another polearm. Taking into account swinging, power strike, and agility (typical numbers for say lvl30) - this would translate to what practical damage? A simple +10 or?
Like I wrote I shown hafted blade because imo it should get bonus to shield cause of it's blade shape.
Polearm should be the choice for axes but all decent axes are higher level while 2hers get all variety of axes for very cheap (Great axe for example is too cheap)
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm
Try it on the damage calculator.
All 2h Axes are UNBALANCED where as all Pole-arm axes are BALANCED that is why pole-arm axes cost so much, you can spam them without care, they even have more weight so you can stun them on the first block usually and just run them over, if you miss you can line up another swing. My hybrid thrower is pole-arms, spamming around with a 31 blunt swing weapon is easy but I'm quickly forgetting how to block.
This is all my opinion of course but, POLE ARMS IS THE CHOICE FOR AXES.
This is mainly because I prefer balanced weapons over unablanced especially when dealing with a shielder, all he has to do against a 2h axe is dodge one swing and then move in for the kill with some over heads. Against a pole arm dodging and moving in for the kill WILL NOT WORK, you will be spammed down by the instant recovery. Just from my experiences, I am not the best player obviously but in my opinion pole arms have the better axes simply due to them being balanced.
sorry for being off topic
Speaking of which, I was wondering myself the other day how exactly does that work.
Let's say a polearm has +7dmg over another polearm. Taking into account swinging, power strike, and agility (typical numbers for say lvl30) - this would translate to what practical damage? A simple +10 or?
I know what you mean my point tough was that there's no decent axe that is cheap in the polearm section (88 speed is not decent) and hafted blade's blade shape could hint to a shield destroyer and it would not be an OP weapon it's only 35 cut I still would prefer great long axe but it's price is high.
I like to have a "cheap" and expensive version of the weapons I use like for example on pyramid head my 2 2h swords are the bastard sword when I'm low on money and two handed sword when I can afford using better stuff.
You clearly have no idea how damage treshold work. Especially for 1h. It's not simple +1 damage dealt.
Now that we have the three swords let's compare them.
Damage(slash): 43 vs 38 vs 36
Damage(piercing): 0 vs 25 vs 25
Speed: 92 vs 96 vs 98
Length: 120 vs 110 vs 106
Other: Unbalanced vs Secondary mode vs Secondary mode
I think -3 speed and -4 range are enough to trade for the shield breaking(click to show/hide)
Similar statistics to the war cleaver except that it sports a "bonus against shields" modifier which makes it a lot more useful than the war cleaver.
Suggestion: Add a bonus against shields modifier.
Since the Claymore was announced I was hoping that it would take place as a sword between the Tears/Cookies and the Flamberge (German/Danish respectively) as there are enough swords in the same category so I was quite surprised when it was added as another sword in the same tier. I have a few suggestions about what could be done with the Claymore but let us first compare the statistics of the weapon:
The Claymore excels in absoluty no category yet it still has the worst speed of all these swords. The Claymore does not fill the role of a hybrid between the Danish and German sword as it is already taken by the Sword of War (which is three points faster than the Claymore). The main problem the Claymore faces is that it slightly overlaps with the Nodachi:
Damage(slash): 43 vs 43
Damage(piercing): 25 vs 0
Speed: 90 vs 92
Length: 120 vs 125
Other: Secondary mode vs nothing
Comments/suggestions about this suggestion regarding the Claymore?
The whole short sword line.
Well, for the basic versions i can see some tiers, but the masterpiece ones are nearly identically.
So in the worst case i have to pay 3.5k gold more for 5 cm more blade lenght.
At baseline, they have the same speed, same length and the Knightly has 1 less cut but 3 more pierce. Fully heir-loomed, though, they have the same cut damage yet the knightly has more pierce and is 1,000 gold cheaper.same as above
Not sure if this was an oversight or just part of balance, but something that has Heavy in its name and weighs .25 more probably shouldn't be 1 speed faster.
2 damage for 4 speed, insane.
BUT what about :
Bec de Corbin 7312
weight 2.8
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 120
swing damage 36, pierce
thrust damage 26 pierce
vs
Long Hafted Spiked Mace 4745
weight 3
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 138
swing damage 34, blunt
thrust damage 20 blunt
Knockdown
Why chose the Bec de corbin ? 36pierce = 34 blunt, you just get more thrust damage but with 120 length ? useless...
Bec de corbin must get more length ... or just more speed, 96 i think.
Woh who suggested the 96 speed? Were they not there for pre-patch bec? 36p on a 96 speed weapon is an instant kill.A heirloomed steel pick ( one hander) has something like 39p damage and 103 speed . Lolweapon. :/
A heirloomed steel pick ( one hander) has something like 39p damage and 103 speed . Lolweapon. :/All lolweapunz should be nerfed at least to the medium level of the tier they're in.
Heavy Bastard Sword needs improvement!
Look its obvious:
Mallet(click to show/hide)
Heavy Bastard Sword(click to show/hide)
Long Iron Mace(click to show/hide)
I guess now you cant do anything then buff my lovely sword.
PS: While i did this glorious Post i found a typo at webpage "Long Iron Mace" it has to be "Crushthrough" ;)
PPS: If you remove lolstab of my heavy bastard remove lolstun from poles ;)
Well it will sure damn be close to a 1 hitter. Every increase in speed indirectly increasing damage and on a pierce weapon +speed can be deadly. I would be down for +speed if the bec received a massive damage nerf with it.
If they keep nerfing all the weapons, I am not even going to attempt to play this mod anymore. Might go to EvE or something. :cry:
Weapons which need attentionLongbow. Need, really need attention. But who cares about this bow ^(
Make longbow ultra slow and have pierce damage on it.Yeah. But like I wrote - projectile speed doesn't allow to shoot at long distance.
okay, claymore getting +2 speed
I have a problem with an axe being balanced, as fast as a sword and getting the bonus against shields, all for less money.
Then you have a problem with reality. Long weapons, even with the majority of the weight at the tip (like an axe) are actually quite balanced and responsive when wielded with a polearm style grip. This grip gives you better weight distribution and leverage with the weapon as opposed to swinging something like a baseball bat (2h grip). Grab a basic wood cutting axe, or sledge hammer. Swing them from the bottom like a 2h grip. Then move your hand up below the head in a polearm position and swing it. Much faster and more responsive right? Yeah, that's why poleaxes are balanced, while axes used in 2h mode are unbalanced.I was expecting that grip argument which is why I wasn't comparing axe and axe. My problem is that axes are totally superior to swords for less money: more damage, same speed, same length and the bonus against shields. Someone is going to say "lolstab" at this stage, but honestly, how often does anyone stab with a sword in combat? Stab is a stance to adopt at the start of an encounter but doesn't come into play much once the actual fighting gets going: watch and see how many people die from stabs compared to the ones who die from slashes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4OKvc-eOpM&feature=player_detailpage#t=255s
Hollywood I know, but Jet Li is actually a guenuine martial artist who understands movement and usage with all kinds of weaponry. Look at how he holds the sledgehammer in a polearm gripped position, rather than a 2h "baseball bat" grip.
Anyways, even if you disregard that try it out yourself and you'll see the truth in the responsiveness of weapons like that when used in those different styles.
I've heard so many contradictory statements about effective length due to animation I no longer believe any of them.
The No-Dachi costs more, does less damage, is the same length and speed and doesn't get a bonus versus shields like the axe.
Someone is going to say "lolstab" at this stage, but honestly, how often does anyone stab with a sword in combat
I was expecting that grip argument which is why I wasn't comparing axe and axe. My problem is that axes are totally superior to swords for less money: more damage, same speed, same length and the bonus against shields. Someone is going to say "lolstab" at this stage, but honestly, how often does anyone stab with a sword in combat? Stab is a stance to adopt at the start of an encounter but doesn't come into play much once the actual fighting gets going: watch and see how many people die from stabs compared to the ones who die from slashes.
I've heard so many contradictory statements about effective length due to animation I no longer believe any of them.
Only thing new animation made was making thrust animation so fast you can't do a 360" thrusting slash.
The biggest fail when it comes to weapon stats is the CORBIN. its expensive (360 to repair) and its sooo short and on a stab is no more dangerous than a spear. I grant that pierce is good against armour but come on its a steel pick on a stick i would rather it lose some damage and get some speed than being able to 1 hit peasants and goofy archers. Look at it irl it would be a piece of cake to spin around.
On another note it has to spikey sides can both get used instead of that goofy back hand swing
Bardiches should all have polearm animation even if they remain 2H no human could swing that much weight around holding it like that.