cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Vibe on August 19, 2011, 08:03:45 am

Title: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 19, 2011, 08:03:45 am
You know it, everyone knows it.

Poleaxe

weight: 3.3 (+1.3)
difficulty: 17 (+1)
speed rating: 89 (-3)
weapon length: 141 (+9)
thrust damage: 31 pierce (+5)
swing damage: 40 cut (+1)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield

Cost: 14470 (-1164)


Elegant Poleaxe

weight: 2 (-1.3)
difficulty: 16 (-1)
speed rating: 92 (+3)
weapon length: 132 (-9)
thrust damage: 26 pierce (-5)
swing damage: 39 cut (-1)
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield

Cost: 15634 (+1164)


My proposition, drop Poleaxe pierce damage to 28.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Thucydides on August 19, 2011, 08:05:25 am
balanced
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 19, 2011, 08:45:10 am
3 speed is a big deal, but uhh... I still say pole axe wins. every time.
Especially since the weight difference makes the poleaxe effectively just as fast thanks to weight stun (lol)
For the record, I don't think that means "nerf pole axe". But a small stat increase to something on the elegant to make it on par with the regular.

*hint: Elegant weight --> 3
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 19, 2011, 08:52:07 am
I'm not proposing any huge nerfs/buffs to any of it, just minor adjustements. While Elegant Poleaxe might be a bit faster, I still believe Poleaxe wins by far. It's even better in battle (more length, damage) and that thrust pierce damage is just crazy.
I rarely see an Elegant Poleaxe being used on EU servers and all the market deals are asking for Poleaxe, not the Elegant one :D
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 19, 2011, 09:07:51 am
exactly.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Siiem on August 19, 2011, 09:08:51 am
Downsize the thrust damage abit and it's fine. This is probably an oversight considering Faboozer is too busy nerfing great swords.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 19, 2011, 09:17:08 am
Downsize the thrust damage abit and it's fine. This is probably an oversight considering Faboozer is too busy nerfing great swords.

That would balance it, I guess. The pierce damage is almost the same as what awlpikes have. And weight, like Marathon said.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: BlackMilk on August 19, 2011, 09:17:45 am
Poleaxe

weight: 3.3 (+0,8)
difficulty: 17 (+2)
speed rating: 89 (-3)
weapon length: 141 (+18)
thrust damage: 31 pierce (+5)
swing damage: 40 cut (+2)
Bonus against Shield
+ Polearmstun
Cost: 14470 (-722)

German Greatsword
weight: 2.5 (-0,8)
difficulty: 15 (+2)
speed rating: 92 (+3)
weapon length: 123 (-18)
thrust damage: 26 pierce (-5)
swing damage: 38 cut (-2)
Cost : 15192 (+722)

I'm just saying. :)
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Spawny on August 19, 2011, 09:36:01 am
Poleaxe

weight: 3.3 (+0,8)
difficulty: 17 (+2)
speed rating: 89 (-3)
weapon length: 141 (+18)
thrust damage: 31 pierce (+5)
swing damage: 40 cut (+2)
Bonus against Shield
+ Polearmstun
Cost: 14470 (-722)

German Greatsword
weight: 2.5 (-0,8)
difficulty: 15 (+2)
speed rating: 92 (+3)
weapon length: 123 (-18)
thrust damage: 26 pierce (-5)
swing damage: 38 cut (-2)
Cost : 15192 (+722)

I'm just saying. :)

Balanced.



LOL
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: NuberT on August 19, 2011, 10:14:55 am
comparing 2h to polearms is bullshit, because the animations are different
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 19, 2011, 10:22:53 am
Sorry NuberT for posting against your weapon :D
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Teeth on August 19, 2011, 10:35:23 am
You are saying more weight is a good thing, but it significantly decreases running speed.

Judging from WaltF4's charts in this post http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3278.0.html

The length and weight difference between these weapons create a running speed difference thats equivalent to a little less than half an athlethics point.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Thucydides on August 19, 2011, 10:37:21 am
You are saying more weight is a good thing, but it significantly decreases running speed.

weapon stun, crushthrough modifier, damage modifier (i think)
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 19, 2011, 10:42:42 am
weapon stun, crushthrough modifier, damage modifier (i think)

Not sure about damage modifier and crushthrough modifier is not important in this case, but hell, 3.3 weight weapon stun is cool :)
Also unsure if weapon weight increases the duration of polestun, or is it the same for all poles (or does it depend on damage dealt)?

Weapon weight is a good thing, either way.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Spawny on August 19, 2011, 11:07:05 am
Not sure about damage modifier and crushthrough modifier is not important in this case, but hell, 3.3 weight weapon stun is cool :)
Also unsure if weapon weight increases the duration of polestun, or is it the same for all poles (or does it depend on damage dealt)?

Weapon weight is a good thing, either way.

Weapon stun depends on the weight of the weapon used to block with compared to the weight of the weapon used to attack with. The higher the difference, the higher the chance of weaponstun iirc.

Blocking a GLB with an espada eslavona will always lead to a weaponstun the first block. Blocking a GLB with another GLB is very unlikely to stun.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 19, 2011, 11:21:41 am
Weapon stun depends on the weight of the weapon used to block with compared to the weight of the weapon used to attack with. The higher the difference, the higher the chance of weaponstun iirc.

Blocking a GLB with an espada eslavona will always lead to a weaponstun the first block. Blocking a GLB with another GLB is very unlikely to stun.

Yeah I know that, I was actually asking about the duration of stun when you actually successfuly hit someone and deal damage :) I guess my post was a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Spawny on August 19, 2011, 12:14:09 pm
Yeah I know that, I was actually asking about the duration of stun when you actually successfuly hit someone and deal damage :) I guess my post was a bit confusing.

Ah, that. I think that's equal for all polearms, regardless of weight.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 19, 2011, 12:52:24 pm
Weapon stun depends on the weight of the weapon used to block with compared to the weight of the weapon used to attack with. The higher the difference, the higher the chance of weaponstun iirc.

Blocking a GLB with an espada eslavona will always lead to a weaponstun the first block. Blocking a GLB with another GLB is very unlikely to stun.

also weapon weight helps reduce the chances of receiving a crushthru. fact that heavier polearms get rarely crushed by mallets (unless the guy with the mallet have 9+ PS).

giving more weight to the elegant, seems a buff to me. stunning lighter weapons is invaluable. longswords, katanas, miaodaos.

georg with the flamberge (the panzermarine) used to effectively stun a lot with overheads then a quick left slash. who doesn't realize his block got stunned, will likely get a slash in the face. that trick works good.

Ah, that. I think that's equal for all polearms, regardless of weight.

you sure? i can stunlock easily with the awlpike overhead + thrust thrust thrust... but not so easily with a Long War Axe (same weapon speed)... well Long War Axe still easymode but not as much as the awlpike in terms of stunlocking.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Spawny on August 19, 2011, 02:29:10 pm
you sure? i can stunlock easily with the awlpike overhead + thrust thrust thrust... but not so easily with a Long War Axe (same weapon speed)... well Long War Axe still easymode but not as much as the awlpike in terms of stunlocking.

The awlpike just has a very fast thrust attack compared to the long war axe.

If you want the best in stunlocking, use a shortened spear or regular spear and you can just keep hitting someone after you get your first hit.

Hit - poke - poke - poke. Even with 4 PS, 26 pierce will hurt.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Christo on August 19, 2011, 02:30:21 pm
TS/DR

Buff my weapon, but of course.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: MrShine on August 19, 2011, 04:26:55 pm
yeah, poleaxe is just a better weapon.  Not sure how you want to balance it, but both need to be looked at. 
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: BreakIn on August 20, 2011, 12:04:30 pm
Wait, nobody here said that lower weight = additional speed bonus, so i think it is balanced. Elegant Poleaxe ALSO have polearm stun, nobody seen it? Last time i did.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 20, 2011, 12:40:21 pm
Wait, nobody here said that lower weight = additional speed bonus, so i think it is balanced. Elegant Poleaxe ALSO have polearm stun, nobody seen it? Last time i did.

Even if there really is a speed bonus due to lower weight, which I doubt there is, it is neglectible. Poleaxe is 100% a better weapon and cheaper.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 20, 2011, 01:27:10 pm
i think the speed bonus coming from a lighter weapon, only apply from block to block transitions and not about the swing speed.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Paul on August 20, 2011, 01:45:31 pm
He obviously meant that with lower weight one is able to achieve higher movement speed and thus be able to get a higher speed bonus.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Dezilagel on August 20, 2011, 03:40:57 pm
Whatever, I say buff the Elegant slightly, either give it a little more speed to emphasize it's role as the "duelling" poleaxe, or increase damage/weight (stab needs a buff imo) to make it more "poleaxe-y".
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: BlackMilk on August 20, 2011, 03:46:48 pm
Whatever, I say buff the Elegant slightly, either give it a little more speed to emphasize it's role as the "duelling" poleaxe, or increase damage/weight (stab needs a buff imo) to make it more "poleaxe-y".
Are you mad? Polearms and especcialy their stab need to be nerfed.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Christo on August 20, 2011, 04:24:51 pm
Are you mad? Polearms and especcialy their stab need to be nerfed.

The Elegant is short as fuck, and not that powerful on the stab compared to other Poleaxes, which is stupid compared to it's pricing.
It's up there with the Greatswords, 3k less than a Flamberge.

The regular Poleaxe has 31p, German has 29p.

Poor Elegant only has.. 26p.

Also less cut damage.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on August 20, 2011, 04:37:23 pm
Hm, I would decrease pierce damage and weight. Maybe even decrease swing damage by 1.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 20, 2011, 05:49:27 pm
He obviously meant that with lower weight one is able to achieve higher movement speed and thus be able to get a higher speed bonus.

wow 1kg less with mid-range 5-6ath raise your speedbonus? i don't think so. maybe when running naked. but in medium gear, +/- 1kg really makes no difference.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Dezilagel on August 20, 2011, 05:57:02 pm
Are you mad? Polearms and especcialy their stab need to be nerfed.

1. The elegant has a rather weak stab, if it's damage is to be improved, that would be a good place to strat.

2. 2h stab needs a slight damage buff, enough with the stupid nerfs now.

3. Yes, I'm completely bonkers.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Paul on August 20, 2011, 06:21:11 pm
Nope, as usual wrong. The weight of weapons/shields held in the hands count ALOT more towards speed loss than armor or stored away weapons.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 08:54:47 pm

2. 2h stab needs a slight damage buff, enough with the stupid nerfs now.


What?   :shock:
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on October 24, 2011, 09:26:00 am
bump, added poll
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: PieParadox on October 24, 2011, 10:18:41 am
I don't think the speed bonus makes up for it. If you want to maximize your speed bonus, you'll want to hit your enemy as you run towards each other; however the elegant can be outswung by many weapons (see poleaxe). Ofc, you can try to use speed bonus as you duel, but it won't be as effective (imo) especially if you get facehugged. The higher athletics could be great though (I haven't used elegant in a while due to price).

Also the slower speed of the poleaxe can potentially gain a higher speed bonus, so I've heard, since it has a low base speed. Good against horseys and agility builds?
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on October 24, 2011, 12:59:07 pm
so wait, you want the poleaxe to have less stab then a german greatsword?

iseewhatyoudidthere  8-)

3 speed, you do feel it!
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on October 24, 2011, 02:25:59 pm
so wait, you want the poleaxe to have less stab then a german greatsword?

iseewhatyoudidthere  8-)

3 speed, you do feel it!

How is Poleaxe's 28p less than German's 26p?

Also, this has nothing to do with poleaxe - 2 handers balance. It is an internal polearm issue, simply explained - Elegant Poleaxe is utter shit compared to Poleaxe and for a higher price.
Title: Re: Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Zisa on October 24, 2011, 04:12:06 pm
Nope, as usual wrong. The weight of weapons/shields held in the hands count ALOT more towards speed loss than armor or stored away weapons.

And it starts faster.
Some people like speed.

It looks cooler.

It's shorter then it looks which is a good thing if you want to do infighting and avoid tks.

It's very gimpness may also appeal to some people.

What is this obsession with making every thing vanilla. Stop it right now! NAOW!
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Dezilagel on October 24, 2011, 04:34:41 pm
I've been using both the elegant and the regular poleaxe and if there's anything to be said about them it's that they are very different weapons.

The Elegant is shorter, better in tight formations and makes you more agile overall, while the regular is longer, heavier and hits harder. The difference is substantial, trying to use one as the other doesn't really work as the elegant doesn't have the length to compete with the greatswords while the regular lacks speed, making the use of it's length and damage crucial.

Now, having said that I personally think that a slight increase of the elegant's stab damage could be justified. But not too much since a 30 p Elegant would be like an awlpike/spear with sideswings and until polestun is removed that would be silly op.
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on October 24, 2011, 08:55:02 pm
internal poleaxe balance coming from a 2h?  :? meh
german poleaxe has got 29p. i dont think its a good idea to lower the poleaxe stab that much
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on October 24, 2011, 10:24:29 pm
internal poleaxe balance coming from a 2h?  :? meh
german poleaxe has got 29p. i dont think its a good idea to lower the poleaxe stab that much

What does it matter what class I am, does being 2h necessarily mean I'm biased? Also this thread was made when I was still a polearmer.
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on October 24, 2011, 10:44:08 pm
german poleaxe has got 29p. i dont think its a good idea to lower the poleaxe stab that much
Title: Re: [STATS] Poleaxe/Elegant Poleaxe
Post by: Vibe on October 24, 2011, 11:18:54 pm
german poleaxe has got 29p. i dont think its a good idea to lower the poleaxe stab that much

German poleaxe is also 10 length shorter.