cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Kalam on January 20, 2011, 06:02:43 pm

Title: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Kalam on January 20, 2011, 06:02:43 pm
Across cRPG, unskilled players yell 'spam' at every personal loss. Still, there are concerns that tug even my arrogant heart. I have heard your cries, and have decided to suggest a hotfix to the whine that permeates throughout these forums. Specifically, this should stop half of the idiots out there from accusing every skilled player of being an 'agility stacker'.

It will not help against the likes of Beeper, Pridecrusher, Kekeeke and other players with actual knowledge of the combat system, but it should help with your average real spammer, such as BXavier, Propanul, &c.

The solution is simple: raise the strength requirements of longer polearms and two-handers. Goodness knows why they're as low as they are, considering that most characters have a strength level higher than most of those requirements. Without further ado, I present the list:

Two-Handed Weapons

Long Iron Mace
Old Requirement: 11
New Requirement: 13

Great Bardiche
Old Requirement: 15
New Requirement: 17

War Cleaver
Old Requirement: 13
New Requirement: 18

Bar Mace
Old Requirement: 13
New Requirement: 16

Great Sword
Old Requirement: 13
New Requirement: 16

Highland Claymore
Old Requirement: 15
New Requirement: 18

Everything above Claymore should be upped to 18. 21 for a flamberge.

Polearms

Long Hafted Blade
Old Requirement: 10
New Requirement: 16

Glaive
Old Requirement: 11
New Requirement: 16

Long Hafted Spiked Mace
Old Requirement: 13
New Requirement: 16

Long Awlpike
Old Requirement: 11
New Requirement: 13

Long Bardiche
Old Requirement: 15
New Requirement: 16

Long Maul
Old Requirement: 14
New Requirement: 21

Long War Axe
Old Requirement: 14
New Requirement: 16
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: UrLukur on January 20, 2011, 06:18:34 pm
What with 1h weapons, they should also get requirement increase.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Kalam on January 20, 2011, 06:23:28 pm
1-handers see more agility builds due to shield skill, though I don't see what the issue would be to raising those a little, too.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: UrLukur on January 20, 2011, 06:27:32 pm
1-handers see more agility builds due to shield skill, though I don't see what the issue would be to raising those a little, too.

1h need more strenght to deal some damage and don't bounce a lot. 5/6 in minimum for non blunt or pierce or cleaver user.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Wulzzz on January 20, 2011, 06:29:08 pm
Not bad idea but 16 str for long hafted blade?..
Thats too much, it's not like its the ultra 90 blunt damage weapon and ment to be a weapon for lower str builds..especially cav
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Vexus on January 20, 2011, 06:29:14 pm
I wouldn't mind the up of requirements although some of yours are a bit extreme but not only weapons need more requirements but also armour.

Still with the low amount of weapons to choose from having such high requirements would make retiring or new players having a bigger time to be able to use their weapons.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 20, 2011, 06:34:48 pm
I like this idea, maybe up some difficulties on some of the heavier armor as well?

16 str and the rest agi and you can wear Black Plate & use almost every weapon, seems a little silly.

lvl 30
8 points converted
16 str
23 agi
5 IF
5 PS
7 ATH
6 WM

156 WPP in whatever weapon class.

Lvl 31
8 points converted
16 str
24 agi
5 IF
5 PS
8 ATH
6 WM

Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: UrLukur on January 20, 2011, 06:44:23 pm
Why plate ? why IF. Go just for PS, ATh and WM, and enjoy your 15/whatever build.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Ganon on January 20, 2011, 10:03:34 pm
Yeah some requirements are too low, agi characters like archers, throwers or spammers shouldn't be able to use heavy weapons. Those are for str characters. Since they can, it allows for spamming with heavy weapons which generates all the whine on the forums.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: bruce on January 20, 2011, 10:53:14 pm
The solution is simple: raise the strength requirements of longer polearms and two-handers. Goodness knows why they're as low as they are, considering that most characters have a strength level higher than most of those requirements. Without further ado, I present the list:
(click to show/hide)

Sounds quite good, really.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Rogue on January 21, 2011, 01:16:36 am
Very good suggestion!
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Tired on January 23, 2011, 01:55:05 am
Highland Claymore
Old Requirement: 15
New Requirement: 18

Claymore sucks too much right now to have increased str req.
otherwise i agree
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Joker86 on January 23, 2011, 03:39:33 am
The problem is this would make meele characters more or less the same, having most character strength 15 to 18 with rest in agility.  :?
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Elmetiacos on January 24, 2011, 12:42:49 pm
I agree - unless requirements are raised to silly levels like 25 you won't really affect who uses the weapons.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: zagibu on January 24, 2011, 04:42:39 pm
And here is my suggestion again to remove all requirements completely, but base swing speed on weapon weight, strength and WPF. And base run speed on Armor weight, total weight, str and athletics.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Keshian on January 27, 2011, 05:46:26 pm
+1, Great idea.  The strength requirements should be legitimate barriers forcing people to actually make difficult chocies in how they want to balance their character rather than allowing everyone to use everything no matter their build unless they go pure agility.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Dravic on January 27, 2011, 08:29:20 pm
Increase armors req, too! I demand more req for armors!


But armor with highest req shouldnt req more str than flamberge. So if flamb - 21 str, black armor - 21 or less. NOT MORE!
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: RandomDude on January 27, 2011, 08:37:16 pm
if 2hs are nerfed like this then it should be across the board for all weapon types

maybe include some new 1h with more power/less reach but high str requirements (15/18) etc

not saying i endorce these changes - they wont affect my flamberge char too much as i usually go high str anyway but if 2h weps are nerfed in this way then it should be for all weapons + add some new weapons for people to use
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Spawny on January 27, 2011, 09:15:27 pm
Yeah some requirements are too low, agi characters like archers, throwers or spammers shouldn't be able to use heavy weapons. Those are for str characters. Since they can, it allows for spamming with heavy weapons which generates all the whine on the forums.

Just curious, where did you get the idea throwers are agility characters?
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: WaltF4 on January 27, 2011, 11:01:16 pm
The problem is this would make meele characters more or less the same, having most character strength 15 to 18 with rest in agility.  :?

What percentage of level 30+ characters do you think have less than 15 strength currently?
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Ganon on January 27, 2011, 11:34:53 pm
if 2hs are nerfed like this then it should be across the board for all weapon types

maybe include some new 1h with more power/less reach but high str requirements (15/18) etc

not saying i endorce these changes - they wont affect my flamberge char too much as i usually go high str anyway but if 2h weps are nerfed in this way then it should be for all weapons + add some new weapons for people to use

Of course, it's not just 2h but also polearms that have this problem. More in general, all equipment has this problem. There should be higher requirements on str, agi and skills.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: UrLukur on January 28, 2011, 12:21:20 am
if 2hs are nerfed like this then it should be across the board for all weapon types

maybe include some new 1h with more power/less reach but high str requirements (15/18) etc

not saying i endorce these changes - they wont affect my flamberge char too much as i usually go high str anyway but if 2h weps are nerfed in this way then it should be for all weapons + add some new weapons for people to use
Why more power ? Just raise requirements on most 1h weapons and call it day (longer and heavier should have higher requirements, i would prefer softcap, but seems to be impossible).
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Joker86 on January 28, 2011, 01:39:30 am
What percentage of level 30+ characters do you think have less than 15 strength currently?

Quite some? 30%?  :?

Why do you ask? This doesn't mean we should only have balanced or strength builds, only because the majority has them, anyway...
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Kalam on January 28, 2011, 06:18:32 am
if 2hs are nerfed like this then it should be across the board for all weapon types

maybe include some new 1h with more power/less reach but high str requirements (15/18) etc

not saying i endorce these changes - they wont affect my flamberge char too much as i usually go high str anyway but if 2h weps are nerfed in this way then it should be for all weapons + add some new weapons for people to use

1h is fine as it is- I'm speaking as someone who prefers playing 2h over any other playstyle. The issue is that a lot of people whine about how 2h/polearm users that happen to be agility spammers with high wpf, and there is, admittedly, a tiny kernel of merit to their cries. Reach + animation speed + wpf speed isn't something they need- and increasing strength requirements would prove to every whiner that most 2handers/polearm users don't require 24 agility to kick their ass. It's just a select few that'll feel the 'nerf'. 
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Rextard on January 28, 2011, 07:09:29 am
I think it should be as is, but also wpf requirement on weapons. That way weapons that are pwning everyone would require dedication, and the associated sacrifice to adaptability, to take advantage of their pwntasticism.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Ujin on January 28, 2011, 11:45:50 am
I agree with most things suggested , especially a requirment of 16  for long hafted spiked mace, too many agi spammers /archers with strong bows use it  .
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Earthdforce on February 18, 2011, 01:10:52 am
21 + str would definitely fix all these crush-through guys we've been seeing..
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Kafein on February 18, 2011, 11:47:08 am
We really need an advantage to put points in str over 15 when playing a melee character

Currently throwers and archers go for more strength than melee characters.

Seems a little silly to me...
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Siiem on February 18, 2011, 12:00:30 pm
Naw screw str requirement all together on melee weapons. Instead give them PS requirement. This would ensure that archers won't be using the best melee weapons aswell as a bow. But it allso gives xbowers a decent chance in melee aswell. Str requirement should be monopolized by armour.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Keshian on February 18, 2011, 07:05:06 pm
We really need an advantage to put points in str over 15 when playing a melee character

Currently throwers and archers go for more strength than melee characters.

Seems a little silly to me...

+1, considering the longbow and warbow require 18 strength (6 powerdraw), throwing lances require 21 strength (7 powerthrow), why would soemthing as heavya s a long great maul be wielded like a twig with only 16 strength, shoul be 24 strength or more so only for strength builds, flamberge at least 24 as well as its  a 8 foot long sword that shouldnt be easy to wield ina  combat situation without amazing strength.  Not sure why all the requirements are still so low.  Also, black armor and other heavya rmors should require having more strength then agility (esssentially 21+ requirement).
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Rumblood on February 18, 2011, 10:33:06 pm
I agree with this notion. Everything in this mod converges in the middle with the same weapons available pretty much regardless. It is silly for our Archers to be built like Sly Stallone and the melee like Dave Chappell...
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Casimir on February 19, 2011, 03:10:42 am
+1 for PS as requirement for weapons.
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: zagibu on February 23, 2011, 12:36:48 am
PS as req would compress the tiers, though. I don't think you can go above 8 as req, because then some eq becomes available only for extreme builds (not that I personally would mind, I play a 12 PS char currently). So if 8 was max, you'd only have 9 different tiers of weapons. Maybe that's enough, though...
Title: Re: On Weapon Requirements, A Whine Fix
Post by: Duke on February 24, 2011, 10:38:21 am
And here is my suggestion again to remove all requirements completely, but base swing speed on weapon weight, strength and WPF. And base run speed on Armor weight, total weight, str and athletics.

I wouldn't remove the requirements, but the rest sounds good.