cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Dooz on August 14, 2011, 11:38:42 pm

Title: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Dooz on August 14, 2011, 11:38:42 pm
The emphasis is on melee, with archery as supplemental harassment.

I suppose my main question pertains to PD and WPF, and how those would best be distributed for maximum efficiency. I plan to use the cheapest bow/arrows available even if I end up with higher than 1 PD.

Total weight of armor/weapons: 30.6

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Which of these builds (or otherwise) would best fit the mold for what I'm looking for?

-edit-
Added a couple of builds after discussion.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Jarlek on August 15, 2011, 12:00:41 am
Hmmm, this interests me. Not sure what would be best but this is what i came up with for myself. Time to make another alt!
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Personally I wouldn't take any Ironflesh. It's the first you should sacrifice for other skillpoints (in this case PD)
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Digglez on August 15, 2011, 12:06:35 am
with effective armor weight of 20+ your archery wpf will be down below 70..and just about useless. wasting all your time switching back and forth between weapons because you wont be able to hit anything but short range
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Jarlek on August 15, 2011, 12:27:33 am
Quote from: Digglez on August 15, 2011, 12:06:35 am
with effective armor weight of 20+ your archery wpf will be down below 70..and just about useless. wasting all your time switching back and forth between weapons because you wont be able to hit anything but short range
Yeah, as I said have low armour weight like 8-ish. Basically just cloth to not run around nude. This would also make you faster with the 1h, although that's not really a new thing xD
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Dooz on August 15, 2011, 12:42:40 am
So it's only the armor weight that affects a drop in wpf, and not the rest of my weapons weights as well? Because if so, I actually clock in at under 20 with just the armor (16.8 to be exact). Where would that leave my archery wpf? Also, like I mentioned this will mainly be used as a melee shielder, only pulling out the bow opportunistically, so it's not gonna be a constant waste-of-time switching back and forth........ I hope.

Zapper, thanks for the input.  :) I actually already have my armor and weapons picked out, and not necessarily based on what would be most effective, but more going for a certain style/look (Armenian hillman warrior). I'm wearing the Byrnja, with Nordic footman helmet, leather gloves, and plated (leather) boots. I'll be using a balanced Langes Messer with a Knightly Kite Shield, and like I said the cheapest bow/arrows available.

So where does that leave me? Certainly I don't expect to make a dent in tin cans with the archery, or even in melee 1v1 I reckon. But can I at least harass lightly armored enemies? What would/should the tactics of one of these builds equipped as shown be?

A couple of builds taking into consideration the higher priority of PD over IF. The thing that worries me about these is the lower overall HP of course as a result of the drop, but just how significant is a 5-10 point shift? Does that translate to one extra slash being able to be absorbed? More, less?

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Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: MrShine on August 15, 2011, 03:17:12 pm
My honest opinion is not to do it: you'll end up being bad at range and do poor damage up close.

Having said that I prefer an 18/18 option like this:
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You'll need to wear light armor to avoid affecting your wpf totals, and I strongly recommend you take a blunt or pierce type weapon for melee. 
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Hirlok on August 15, 2011, 03:22:01 pm
I had a shield archer in the beginning. He sucked hard, and that was BEFORE they nerfed the shit out of archery and hybrids...
Not recommended. If you want to harrass people, take an one slot xbow or some throwing shit like most of the skirmishers do... otherwise it will be YOU being harrassed, a lot ;-)
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Dooz on August 15, 2011, 09:21:46 pm
Oh poo. I was afraid of such things. In any case, I'll likely use STF to try out one of these builds for a little bit and see how they feel. If indeed it does nothing but hinder both melee and ranged, rendering me a useless pile of equipment, I'll stick to one or the other next gen.

If anyone else has had any positive experiences with hybrids, let it be known!
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Jarlek on August 16, 2011, 12:07:47 am
Quote from: MrShine on August 15, 2011, 03:17:12 pm
My honest opinion is not to do it: you'll end up being bad at range and do poor damage up close.

Having said that I prefer an 18/18 option like this:
(click to show/hide)

You'll need to wear light armor to avoid affecting your wpf totals, and I strongly recommend you take a blunt or pierce type weapon for melee.
This wont work at all. The 1h wpf is too low for use with a shield.

@Dooz: Remember that gloves are x2 weight and helmet is x3 (or is it the other way around?)
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: MrShine on August 16, 2011, 12:18:22 am
Quote from: Zapper on August 16, 2011, 12:07:47 am
This wont work at all. The 1h wpf is too low for use with a shield.

@Dooz: Remember that gloves are x2 weight and helmet is x3 (or is it the other way around?)

I thought shield didn't effect wpf, only overall run speed. 

And you're right about gloves & helmet weight unless that's changed in the most recent patch.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Jarlek on August 16, 2011, 12:40:28 am
Quote from: MrShine on August 16, 2011, 12:18:22 am
I thought shield didn't effect wpf, only overall run speed. 

And you're right about gloves & helmet weight unless that's changed in the most recent patch.
They dont affect wpf but their speed rating affects you. But that's not the main problem. Using a 1h and shield or just a 1h is very different. Your more, dunno how to put it, sluggish with a shield, no matter which. Without one it is much more easy/fluent to feint and stuff, and it is also generally (or at least feels so) much faster. Your gonna be ok if you use a 100 speed shield, (which would not slow you down) and maybe down to 95 (a bit slower) but I wouldn't go further down than this.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Dooz on August 16, 2011, 04:38:16 am
Quote from: Zapper on August 16, 2011, 12:07:47 am
@Dooz: Remember that gloves are x2 weight and helmet is x3 (or is it the other way around?)

So a helmet with a weight listed at 1 is actually 3? I hope I'm missing something, otherwise I don't get why this would be the case. But thanks for the tip!  :)
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Vackeno on August 16, 2011, 11:56:59 am
The WPF Penalties for Helmet/Gloves are 2x/3x worse than WPF penalties for chest.

Also, FYI, I have 7 PD on my toon. I last played prior to the slot changes and big archery nerf. I was playing today with the nomad bow and regular arrows (cash farming) and on very heavily armored enemies the shots were hitting them but not doing enough damage to even do the 'damage stun' effect. With a weaker bow and lower PD, I imagine you'd hurt slightly less than a bumblebee.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Jarlek on August 16, 2011, 02:55:28 pm
Quote from: Dooz on August 16, 2011, 04:38:16 am
So a helmet with a weight listed at 1 is actually 3? I hope I'm missing something, otherwise I don't get why this would be the case. But thanks for the tip!  :)
For the wpf decrease, yes. Can't remember if it's also multiplied for speed reduction. Check the thread about it if you wanna check it out too. Basically it's because they want helmet and gloves (which ways much less than armour for realistic/logical reasons) to still be an important part of the weight factors.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Dooz on August 16, 2011, 08:58:19 pm
So I've decided I likely won't be going with this as a main next gen. At least not until I thoroughly try it out in stf, but there is another build I need to try first and I'll probably have retired at week's end before I get a chance to try another one. In any case, I think I decided which build I'd go with if I were to, and it's a slight wpf variation of the third one in the first post. With an effective armor weight of 17, this would leave me 100 wpf in 1h, and mid 90's in archery. And really, the only difference as compared to a pure shielder build of 18/18 is the lower HP, and somewhat lower wpf, but from what I've come to understand, those are the two least significant things (at least when it comes to already being over 100 in wpf).

(click to show/hide)

Thanks again for all the input. Learned a few new things along the way, and I'm pretty happy with this final build as the one to shoot for. Hopefully with it I can take out unsuspecting lightly armored targets from range, or at least weaken them before going in for the kill, and still hold my own in melee about as well as I would if I weren't carrying the bow and arrows. I'll report back when I get around to actually fighting with this.  :)
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Jarlek on August 16, 2011, 09:13:21 pm
Y U HAVE 1 IF?

Goddamnit your gonna use a shield anyway, just put the damn point there. There's not a single reason for you to go 1 IF over 1 extra shieldskill.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Dooz on August 16, 2011, 09:16:55 pm
 :cry:

I liked 55 hp better than 53, and I don't mind if the shield breaks a little faster as I can further practice/enjoy blocking/dueling.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: MrShine on August 16, 2011, 09:47:36 pm
Quote from: Dooz on August 16, 2011, 09:16:55 pm
:cry:

I liked 55 hp better than 53, and I don't mind if the shield breaks a little faster as I can further practice/enjoy blocking/dueling.

Go with what you prefer, one of the big weaknesses of the 18/18 build is the lack of hp as you seem to recognize, although I personally think that the extra point in shield will serve you much more than the extra 2 hp in terms of survival.  There will be very few instances where going from 53 to 55 hp will afford you one extra hit.  Stacking IF or going more strength heavy on the other hand... :)

I personally LOVE ironflesh and I try to incorporate it into any build, however as a stand alone point it is essentially worthless.  My 2 cents, the build you described isn't going to be gimped, nor will changing from 4-5 shield going to be super noticeable. 

Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: [ptx] on August 16, 2011, 10:12:57 pm
Well, apart from looking like an utter noob with a shielder/archer hybrid, you're also going to be extremely inefficient. Also, it really makes no sense, why use a shield? You got your bow to fight against other ranged, and with that few points in shielding you will suck in melee a lot.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Socrates on August 16, 2011, 10:27:09 pm
Seems to work good. Although being a hybrid with most things in cRPG is gimped so don't expect to do well. This build puts more points in Bow Prof since it's needed more to be accurate than 1h Prof.

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 15
    Agility: 21
    Hit points: 50

    Attributes to skills: 2
    Skills to attributes: 6

    Ironflesh: 0
    Power Strike: 5
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 7
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 5
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 7

    One Handed: 91
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 150
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Dooz on August 16, 2011, 10:41:05 pm
Quote from: MrShine on August 16, 2011, 09:47:36 pm
Go with what you prefer, one of the big weaknesses of the 18/18 build is the lack of hp as you seem to recognize, although I personally think that the extra point in shield will serve you much more than the extra 2 hp in terms of survival.  There will be very few instances where going from 53 to 55 hp will afford you one extra hit.  Stacking IF or going more strength heavy on the other hand... :)

I personally LOVE ironflesh and I try to incorporate it into any build, however as a stand alone point it is essentially worthless.  My 2 cents, the build you described isn't going to be gimped, nor will changing from 4-5 shield going to be super noticeable.

I see, makes sense.  :)

ptx, like I mentioned, I'd be using a shield because I'd be a shielder. Who just happens to also carry around a bow and arrow. And I'm not concerned about looking like a noob, I am a noob, and don't care who knows it.

Socrates, I don't think I'd want there to be more focus on archery wpf than 1h, for the reason I mention above. This build would have a focus on melee, archery secondary. I understand it makes both weaker in the end but........... but what? That's the question. But what. Hopefully fun.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Socrates on August 17, 2011, 01:36:50 am
I know, but if you actually want to think about using Archery you're going to have to put enough points in it to be accurate which is above 140.
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Sammael on August 17, 2011, 05:54:27 pm
Your archery accuracy will be quite poor, which when I play with archery wpf that low i tend to just get frustrated. I like the concept, and I have previously done a 1h/shield/archery gen, but I went up to 135 wpf in archery, which is where I felt it was relatively accurate (and that was with armor weight of around 8 total).

To be honest, archery just doesn't work very well unless you make a significant skill and wpf investment. Additionally, I find that using anything below a tatar bow is terribly frustrating. Your damage will be so low that even people in medium armors can just shrug off your arrows.

Crossbows and to a lesser extent, throwing, are much better choices for a ranged supplement to a mainly melee build.


In any case, play around with it and add pd/wpf to archery slowly to your STF character. This will let you add points until you get to what you find acceptable in terms of damage/accuracy.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Zekerage on August 18, 2011, 01:32:26 am
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    * Strength: 15
    * Agility: 18

    * Attributes to skills: 2

    * Power Strike: 5
    * Shield: 4
    * Athletics: 6
    * Riding: 6
    * Horse Archery: 3
    * Power Draw: 5
    * Weapon Master: 6

    * One Handed: 90
    * Archery: 140

That's the build I've recently hashed out for fun. It has the ability to do 1h Cav, shielder, archery, and if I want, Mounted archery, well (in my opinion). I understand that I won't be the best at any of those, but I should be able to do well enough. My equipment will be as follows:

MW Horn Bow, Mw Bodkins, Mw Nordic Champion sword, Elite Cavalry shield, Destrier, Leather boots, Mail gauntlets, and Blue tunic over mail.

First and Foremost, I'll be a shielder/1h cav, but if a 2h/polearmer is closing in or an archer is taking pop shots at my shield wall, I can whip out my bow, and somewhat reliably lay down some arrows. Archery will indeed be supplementary, and while some people may say "90 wpf isn't enough in 1h", I say to them "I've done pretty damn well with 1 wpf and 0-2 PS in 1h using a damn carpenter's hammer".

Understanding that CRPG is partially a game about numbers, it's also a game about skill. But realize that, above all, it's a Game. Have fun :P.

-Zylo
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Jarlek on August 18, 2011, 07:45:14 pm
That looks really nice Zekerage! I'm one of those "the wpf is too damn low!" guys, mainly because it's supposed to be the main weapon and not the secoundary (plus the nice speed bonus is really nice :D) but I know that you can easily be good enough with 1wpf and 0ps even with the carpenter "hammer". That's mainly because it's a normally fast weapon but more importantly it's also blunt. 90wpf might be too little for the swords and stuff, but take a mace out and it's tincan bashing time!  8-)

I'll think about making an alt like that, if you don't mind, but since he wont have any 'looms (never give outfit tips if you're thinking about looms) I'm gonna take Horn Bow, Bodking (you want high damage because you're not gonna fire a lot), Winged Mace (my fav 1h) and a shield (e.cav on horse, heavy round on foot).

I can't wait to try it out after I'm done with my hoplite alt. You think I should max out 1h or archery first as I lvl?
Title: Re: Propinions on shielder/archer hybrid build(s)
Post by: Zekerage on August 19, 2011, 01:43:08 am
Well, considering that technically, Shielder/1h cav will be your main focus, I'd start by getting either 15 str or at least enough str for your items, get your PS up, and then get 3-4 riding asap. The bow probably won't even make an appearance (despite the investment) until later. See, the thing I've realized about this build, and any build like it is this..... It'll be a BITCH to level up. If I were to respec right now (from lvl 29 or 30), I'd still only be lvl 24-27, and using the calculator, I can only be extremely mediocre, if sub-par at best. Like most builds, it shines at lvl 30.

Also, I know I shouldn't base builds on/include Heirlooms, but I'm just saying that the build might possibly work for me because Heirlooms give you quite a bit of leeway when it comes to stats and wpf.

-edit: If I were to Respec into this build right now, I'd be right about here:

Level 27 (2 359 534 xp)

    * Strength: 15
    * Agility: 18

    * Skills to attributes: 2

    * Power Strike: 5
    * Shield: 4
    * Athletics: 2
    * Riding: 4
    * Power Draw: 5
    * Weapon Master: 6

    * One Handed: 90
    * Archery: 136

While that's not terrible, and it's doable, I'm still missing 9 skill points that are pretty necessary. I won't have the 3 HA, I won't have 6 athletics, and I won't have 6 riding. None of those are really essential to pulling this off, and I could just avoid firing from horse back, and I hate being slow (low athletics), but I'll have a horse, so, Y'know.