cRPG

cRPG => Scene Editing => Topic started by: Kong Ming on January 04, 2011, 03:03:01 am

Title: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 04, 2011, 03:03:01 am
Welcome to the (un)Official New Map Discussion Thread!

If you want to discuss maps that are already on the servers please refer to this thread:

Maps in Development. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,132.0.html)

If you have ideas for new maps that you'd like to see developed, this is the place to post.  Before doing so, however, please take a moment to help us all out and read the following:

(click to show/hide)

Ultimately, we'd just like to provide an opportunity to hear ideas and opinions about what could be fun.  Please be descriptive, and post when you've taken a moment to really think about it rather than impulsively throw something up.  Making a map well takes hours of work, and we'd like to spend that time on something people will really enjoy.  What type of map would you spend several hours building if you had the time, know-how, and inclination to do so?

Thanks for your help!

   -Legal

NOTE:  This conversation was transfered from the TaleWorlds forums (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,151420.0.html).   Please resubmit ideas here if you wish to continue discussing them on this thread.  Thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 04, 2011, 03:18:50 am
Poll results from the TaleWorlds thread.  If you have ideas for other polls that would be relevant to this discussion please PM them to me.

I prefer maps that occur....

1. In a Town or Castle.  Many buildings, alleyways, stairways, rooftops, etc.28 (27.7%)
2. In Arenas.  Townlike, but more open, fewer rooftops and buildings.9 (8.9%)
3. In Villages.  A small village with a few buildings and roads surrounded by open terrain.9 (8.9%)
4. In Ruins.  Mostly open with scattered, sparse architecture for cover.23 (22.8%)
5. On Bridges.  Pretty much open terrain, with traffic channeled onto one or more bridges.12 (11.9%)
6. In the Open.  Open fields with moderate to little terrain change and occasional trees or rocks for minimum cover.           20 (19.8%)
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Roran Hawkins on January 04, 2011, 02:34:36 pm
I'd like an ambush on a road from a forest, with destroyed carts everywhere
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Phazey on January 04, 2011, 07:14:01 pm
Whatever happend with that 'Forest Hideout' map? I remember playing it on EU4 and really enjoying in.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Geranigus on January 04, 2011, 09:28:23 pm
I did like that one as well, is it removed ?
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Helrekkr on January 06, 2011, 02:44:55 pm
How about a "Castle in the mountains" type of map ?

 - It would be inside a castle, though mostly on battlements and such. The castle would be on top of a very high altitude peak, perhaps you could only see clouds looking down from the walls.
 - Lots of "unsafe" causeways from which one might fall or be kicked off.
 - Some taller causeways from which you can see below for some ranged attacks, but possible access via tight corridor/staircases.

Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 06, 2011, 09:25:49 pm
Could be interesting, any sort of picture you could post to solidify what you're talking about?

On a general note, with the new patch out, and implementing a totally different gold/xp system, I foresee a very different fundamental structure to future maps.  Although team balance will be as essential as ever, the great need for focus that was previously demanded has more or less vanished.  Clearly it's preferable if rounds don't drag on interminably, but allowing for gold/xp wherever you are on the map alive or dead seems to me to mean that new maps will not need to be designed so strongly around the single focused combat area that made certain maps so popular pre-patch.  Anyone else have thoughts on this new development?
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Nasturtium on January 06, 2011, 11:04:35 pm
Good point, The need to be in a bottleneck to earn xp has vanished, but along with it a new phenomenon has emerged: the naked peasant hiding in the bushes waiting for the xp tick. I am not sure how much this really changes things as far as map balancing goes, I have yet too see people playing too far outside the conventional way maps have been played ,in the 4 months or so I have been playing crpg. I have noticed more cav than usual, and more pikes, but about the same amount of archery, albiet less effective. I certainly am not a fan of many of the sprawling, precipitous maps I have seen on EU servers, nor am I too fond of one-room-slaughter maps. I suspect that the nor will still be medium sized village/ruins maps being played in much the same way as before the change.

 I will continue to try and make maps that force people out of their comfort zones,  and ignore most of the standard cliches while testing new concepts.  This game is great in that it forces players down to earth; unlike many fps games there is no jetpack, no special teleporter or boost, you are limited to what you can walk to, jump on or ladder up to. Also unlike most FPS style games, bunching up in tight groups is encouraged and enhances gameplay.   

  The next level of map editing I want to try is spawn advancing battles. I would like to see servers trying to mix up gamemodes a  bit to encourage new maps and playstyles.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Helrekkr on January 06, 2011, 11:39:44 pm
Could be interesting, any sort of picture you could post to solidify what you're talking about?

On a general note, with the new patch out, and implementing a totally different gold/xp system, I foresee a very different fundamental structure to future maps.  Although team balance will be as essential as ever, the great need for focus that was previously demanded has more or less vanished.  Clearly it's preferable if rounds don't drag on interminably, but allowing for gold/xp wherever you are on the map alive or dead seems to me to mean that new maps will not need to be designed so strongly around the single focused combat area that made certain maps so popular pre-patch.  Anyone else have thoughts on this new development?

(click to show/hide)

Just something quick i found with google image search, but i guess it's fairly close to what i was going for, with a focus on keeping the fight on the edges (on the battlements/towers mostly, possibly with the occasional crumbling wall allowing for a gap where the unaware could fall :P ) instead of inside to keep things interesting (and dangerous).
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 07, 2011, 07:45:48 am
Hahaha looks pretty awesome.  It might be a bit sophisticated for mount&blade engine.  You can't do anything too complex with atmosphere or terrain maps.  It would be a fun thing to try and pull off though.  You'd probably have to build the entire land with objects though.  Could be an awful lot of work.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Thranduil on January 08, 2011, 12:22:57 am
You could do it.  You wouldn't have to build the entire land with objects, but unlike what the picture hints at, it wouldn't be disconnected from the ground, only very high up, and it wouldn't come to a point on the bottom, but if it's high enough up, and you have enough objects in the way, no one would really notice until they die and look around.

I agree with Kong though.  Looks like a decent amount of work....oh crap....I'm supposed to be redoing my Crashing Winery map....otherwise I'd take this on.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Thranduil on January 10, 2011, 12:36:22 am
(click to show/hide)

Just something quick i found with google image search, but i guess it's fairly close to what i was going for, with a focus on keeping the fight on the edges (on the battlements/towers mostly, possibly with the occasional crumbling wall allowing for a gap where the unaware could fall :P ) instead of inside to keep things interesting (and dangerous).

Alright, since my Crashing Winery is indefinitely on hiatus (something with the prop interior isn't nice...fps drops big time), I'll see what I can do for ya with this idea.  To see progress on it, check here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,132.msg7967.html#msg7967


Now, keep in mind, I can make it only so fall prone, since a lot of people will probably just not like a map where they keep falling into pits/to their deaths....but I'll put a few good falls in there for ya.  :wink:
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Helrekkr on January 10, 2011, 08:36:03 am
Alright, since my Crashing Winery is indefinitely on hiatus (something with the prop interior isn't nice...fps drops big time), I'll see what I can do for ya with this idea.  To see progress on it, check here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,132.msg7967.html#msg7967


Now, keep in mind, I can make it only so fall prone, since a lot of people will probably just not like a map where they keep falling into pits/to their deaths....but I'll put a few good falls in there for ya.  :wink:

Hehe sweet, thank you :)
And I didn't even mention the spiky pits of flaming doom yet :P

PS: Wow that's great work, can't wait to play that :)
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 10, 2011, 10:10:06 am
Well, though it may be the worst idea ever, I've decided to try and make a map that looks something like this:

(click to show/hide)

It's called The Sudd, an immense region of swampland surrounding the White Nile in southern Sudan.  I've always found it a fascinating landscape in real life and couldn't help wondering what it would be like to fight there.  Guess we'll see.  I'll put up screens of the map when it starts to come together in the map development thread.  Time to see just how many plants a computer can actually handle  :twisted:
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Nasturtium on January 10, 2011, 10:57:04 am
  This looks like a super fin map to work on! You can hide all sorts of easter eggs in there  :lol:  I think the hard part with a wetland map like that would be getting the elevations just right, you don't want players under water hiding, or so many depressions that it becomes impossible to find one another. What plant props would you use for the hugh amount of long grass?
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: krampe on January 10, 2011, 04:42:43 pm
There was once such a map, i really loved.
One street in the middle with one bridge, left and right swampland with very high grass you coulnd't see through.
Wonder what has happend to it?
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: zagibu on January 10, 2011, 04:51:02 pm
Isn't the problem with high grass that people can just drop their graphics settings and it will disappear?
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Thranduil on January 10, 2011, 04:58:19 pm
  This looks like a super fin map to work on! You can hide all sorts of easter eggs in there  :lol:  I think the hard part with a wetland map like that would be getting the elevations just right, you don't want players under water hiding, or so many depressions that it becomes impossible to find one another. What plant props would you use for the hugh amount of long grass?

The candidates I see for long grass are as follows:

Basak: it's nice and thick, and doesn't look bad when you stretch it in the z-axis.  It also has cat-tails, so that's a little swampy/suddy.

Common Plant:  another good candidate.  Thick and also a little dull in color for those areas that aren't mossy green.

Grass: stretch it out in the z-axis to twice it's original size or slightly under and you have a good candidate for The Sudd.

Grass_saz:  possibly as an accentuation

Grass_steppe:  again, another good candidate.  Just like Grass, but a little dull in color for those areas that aren't mossy green.



Those are just some I would guess he might use, Nasturtium.  I looked at them and stretched them out to 2 times the normal size in the z-axis only.  Increasing the x and y axis just made it look like I shrunk, and not that the grass grew tall.
Isn't the problem with high grass that people can just drop their graphics settings and it will disappear?

Not if it's placed in the scene as a prop.  If it's part of the map's original terrain code, then yes, but I don't think that it will disappear if it's placed as a prop.  I'll go check that though......yep, I'm right.  The grass will stay if place as a prop.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 10, 2011, 06:24:10 pm
Yeah the grass distance setting or whatever it is only applies to grass that is stitched to the terrain textures (steppe, plain, forest, etc).  I don't think it even applies to foliage in the terrain seed.

I like your suggestions Thran, problem is I don't want to use anything I have to scale on my own since there will be hundreds if not thousands of them  :twisted:.  So I'm sticking to objects that I can randomize scale and rotation.  Mostly using buddy plants, bush1, drybush, and a little big_bush.

EDIT:  The thirteen year-old in me just laughed at that last sentence.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Thranduil on January 11, 2011, 12:10:33 am
Okay, Sky Castle is essentially finished.  I'd add more trinkets, but the file size is large enough...640 kB. :(  I have this bug that occurs occasionally where the file size of the .sco file I'm editing will spike sky high.  The file size should have been ~80-100 kB in size, but alas....


(click to show/hide)

I'll upload the file to mbrepository soon.


Edit:

http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2492
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Helrekkr on January 11, 2011, 08:53:26 am
Epic ! Thanks man :)

Now just to figure out how I would go about getting this in a regular battle server rotation.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Thranduil on January 11, 2011, 03:58:01 pm
Epic ! Thanks man :)

Now just to figure out how I would go about getting this in a regular battle server rotation.

Well, for cRPG, I've posted it in the finished maps section...OH!  BTW, I just updated the file since I noticed I left out one railing to show there's a barrier, and a winch so the gatehouse doesn't have chains sticking out pointlessly...

But yeah, I posted in the finished maps section, so it might get tried out on the cRPG NA servers, but for native, you'd have to ask around and see who'd be willing to use it. 

Here's the thing, I don't think it would work too well in native.  At least, not the falling.  In native, fall damage isn't very...realistic to say the least.  You drop 20 fathoms and there's still a chance you'll survive.  On cRPG though, fall damage is doubled, so I'm relatively certain on this map: you fall, you die. ;)
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 11, 2011, 07:26:30 pm
Yeah, I was testing out my ravine map I was fiddling with, and my guy would frequently survive a 150 FOOT DROP.  Silly Native.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Helrekkr on January 12, 2011, 08:28:34 am
Doesn't anybody on the EU servers put some of the maps here up ? :(
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Nasturtium on January 12, 2011, 08:38:23 pm
You can always PM Connasse about maps, since this is a fairly new subforum I am not so sure the admins are even aware of it.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: MountedRhader on January 19, 2011, 12:22:55 am
I need some new map suggestions. I'll try to do any you can think of that are not too crazy.  :D
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Killroth on January 19, 2011, 12:47:48 am
I think a cool map idea for a duel map would be a pit like conan the barbarian but a little bigger so that people didnt have to run all the way across a map to duel :)
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Roran Hawkins on January 23, 2011, 04:29:00 pm
Suggestion: 1 small bridge between the spawns, which are secured from direct fire, and the bridge goes over a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE depth.also, a platform bridge you have to jump over on the side.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Whalen207 on January 24, 2011, 05:11:41 am
Then everyone would just rush across the bridge...
The rest of the map would be rendered useless...
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: gazda on January 24, 2011, 10:48:00 am
I made this map simply by loading map ruins and editing, i dont know how to make it show in quick scene choser and how to install it but if somone knows how to do it and likes this map, and if i can send him scene obj file if needed, pm me. Or you can make the same map on your pc

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: indigocylinder on January 24, 2011, 11:19:54 am
There was once such a map, i really loved.
One street in the middle with one bridge, left and right swampland with very high grass you coulnd't see through.
Wonder what has happend to it?

Here it is, along with six other good maps, made by a guy on the Australian server:

http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2292
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on January 31, 2011, 01:39:41 am
First, I have some general suggestions about what I think makes for good maps.

1. No stand-alone towers/forts (archer camping grounds). If you want a high point where some archers would go to naturally, make it so that it is still pretty low to the ground, doesn't provide much cover, and it is still easily accessible for cavalry. The ruins maps with the old walls that have sunk into the ground are a great example of a balanced archer spot. Cavalry can run up the slope. Archer have to use the slope of the structure to get any cover from ranged attacks. But it's still safer than being on the ground.

2. Minimize high-wire trick locations for people to get to. I think it's pretty annoying when someone jumps around on some buildings or uses ladders to get on top of some skinny wall that wasn't meant for people, and the only way to get to them is taking the same long trek of jumping around, probably while being shot at by that person who went up there in the first place.

3. No "best" location, especially in the center of the map. Ideally, any particularly good spot to set up at should have a glaring weakness. If there's a fortification with great forward cover and is hard to access from the front (and thus easily defended), there should perhaps be another location to the flank of that location that exposes all the defenders (campers).

4. Any enclosed buildings should have multiple entrances that expose anyone who is camping a different entrance. So if there is a door on one side of a room and some guy is standing beside it with his sledgehammer raised and ready to attack anyone who enters, an archer should be able to go around to the other side and shoot in at him through a different entrance. That ice map that is all blue with just a castle in the middle is an example of a castle that is too easily camped.

5. Less is usually more. When you make choke points, people tend to stop at the choke point and defend it. If they go through it, it's like they are exposing themselves. Similarly, if there are good buildings, they stick to them. Narrow corridors bunch people together. But when it's rather wide open and any obstacles are pretty insignificant, you get a good sprawling battle (and it's less like a siege). So don't try to "direct traffic" so that players end up with really only 1 best path to take to maximize their safety. Make it more random, sparse, and unclear as to where to go. It's probably best that they decide where to go based on what they see happening on the battlefield rather than going where the battlefield terrain leads them.


Regarding specific suggestions for maps, I have one at the moment:

1. There's a map with a bunch of boats in the bay connected by docks, with the shoreline curving around the outside. The main battle happens on the boats/docks. I think that map would be better with the boats and everything moved closer to the midpoint of the shoreline. As it is now, the shore and the boats are like two very separate battlefields and you have to walk a very long dock to go between them. So each separate battlefield can't really be used to flank the other. But if the ships are pushed inland more, the shore becomes an extension of the battle on the boats and gives a worthwhile flanking option.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 31, 2011, 05:28:13 am
Thanks for your input Kay, it's great to hear and I generally agree with what you have to say.  A few thoughts.  As far as structures go, mapping in M&B is unfortunately fairly limited by the models we have available for castles/ruins/houses/etc.  They were all essentially built for single-player with many dead-end and enclosed areas so the concerns you express about balance in structures isn't really part of their design.  If a map designer is clever though, hopefully they can combine/angle/scale a structure to compensate, but it's definitely a learning process.  On your point about focus, I know for my own part that I am still adjusting to the post past situation in cRPG which has vastly changed map design.  Before, focus was critical, since all players wanted from a map was an obvious place to jam together and earn gold/xp by being close to wherever the killing was taking place (with some minor exceptions of course).  Now that that is no longer important, I think the only concern in this regard is that maps are contained enough that players aren't wandering around looking for each other in the later stages of the round when most people are dead.  I like that current conditions allow maps to be a little more open an undetermined, but it is still important for players to understand immediately upon spawning, where the enemy generally is and what various options are available to them.

NOTE: I don't think anyone has yet claimed credit for the harbor map you described, hopefully whoever made it sees your thoughts.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 31, 2011, 05:30:43 am
Its an ATS map, based on all the banners at the dock.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 31, 2011, 05:34:19 am
Yeah I think it says ATS in it's name, I just don't know which ATS since there are a few different members that have made maps for them.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 31, 2011, 06:06:50 am
Also, its easier to win a fight with a saber tooth tiger in a phone booth than contact an ATS guy on forums, unless that contact be trolling eachother :P

:/

AFAIK Airith and Mouse have made several, and I think there are some more who made maps as well.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: FF_GeorgeWashington on January 31, 2011, 07:04:05 am
Make a mines of moria map and make it almost pitch black dark except for some torches here and there
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 31, 2011, 08:20:52 am
Unfortunately, M&B engine doesn't really allow much lighting control, and the general ambient light is controlled server-side and can't be set in the map.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Thranduil on January 31, 2011, 04:40:29 pm
Make a mines of moria map and make it almost pitch black dark except for some torches here and there
Unfortunately, M&B engine doesn't really allow much lighting control, and the general ambient light is controlled server-side and can't be set in the map.

I think it could be done.  Just use solid arena walls for the walls and ceilings and it should block out all light...I think.  I'm not volunteering BTW.  Not enough time. :(
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 31, 2011, 06:29:25 pm
It unfortunately doesn't work that way.  There is still a general ambient light on every map that goes everywhere.  Adding the "indoor" tag is the best you can do to reduce this.  Check out Nasturtiums caverns map if you want to see, it essentially is a mines of moria map and is as dark as it gets.
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: CtrlAltDe1337 on January 31, 2011, 07:19:15 pm
Well as a side note, you can use the terrain color painter and use very dark terrain to make some parts of it dark, but its not possible to do that with the objects so...
Title: Re: Submit New Map Ideas Here
Post by: Kong Ming on January 31, 2011, 07:28:25 pm
This is true.