cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on August 12, 2011, 02:41:24 am

Title: Long Bardiche
Post by: Leshma on August 12, 2011, 02:41:24 am
My Great Long Axe worth twice as much looks like shit next to this thing.

Two more speed means little next to 15 length advantage.

Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Leshma on August 12, 2011, 02:25:18 pm
Okay since no one seems to give damn can I ask to at least make it unbalanced. It's too good for its price, do something about it. Either lessen the cut damage, or make it slower, or unbalanced, something...

Poleaxe may have much more stab damage but people rarely use stab with poleaxes/axes. If you take that into account Long Bardiche is better than Poleaxe for half it's price. Also since you nerfed agi to the ground weapon speed doesn't matter as it used to, there are many Flamberge users who don't give a damn about it's slow speed because it's not gimped as it seems when you look at stats. Nowadays, on battle server where most of us play everything is about strength and length. Either fix current str/agi balance or fix weapons like Long Bardiche which is at same time, cheap and effective as best (most expensive) weapons in class.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Berserkadin on August 13, 2011, 01:03:21 pm
Then why do you barely see anyone use the long bardiche?
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Ujin on August 13, 2011, 01:13:20 pm
The weapon is perfectly balanced. At it least it doesnt have screwed up animations like GLA.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Diomedes on August 13, 2011, 06:08:00 pm
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Sorry if I'm mistaken about the weapons.  I couldn't find anything called a "Long Bardiche."  From what I can see the weapons are quite well balanced.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Leshma on August 13, 2011, 06:10:35 pm
It's polearm not two handed weapon.

Long Bardiche

weapon length: 140
weight: 3.5
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 89
weapon length: 140
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 45 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield

Price: 6,934 gold

Quote
Then why do you barely see anyone use the long bardiche?

People are slow.

I was mistaked about demand. There were few people looking for x3 version but now can't see anyone asking for it. For some reason Panos seems to has it :D
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Diomedes on August 13, 2011, 08:49:40 pm
Yeah, looking at the correct weapon now I agree that it should be unbalanced. 
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 14, 2011, 06:47:15 am
unbalanced is a huge malus, even something else out.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Phew on August 16, 2011, 05:30:41 pm
I just traded my Mighty Great Long Bardiche for a Mighty Long Bardiche, and I now think I have the most versatile polearm:

Top-tier swing damage? Check (good for 1-shotting archers/duelers)
Breaks shields? Check
Adequate for dueling? Check (can actually feint)
Half the price of the top tier weapons? Check (I can bring a Long Spear and a Long Bardiche for the same upkeep as a Great Long Bardiche)
Decent thrust? Check (good enough to stun people/stab through doors in siege)

13% more swing damage than a Poleaxe for half the price, same speed and length. Not too shabby.

Please don't make it unbalanced. Just buff the shorter axes.

Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Siiem on August 16, 2011, 05:33:25 pm
Actually it should be unbalanced like all the other axes, kinda weird it's not already.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: zagibu on August 16, 2011, 07:52:06 pm
Axes are not unbalanced. I suggest lowering its cut damage to 43 instead of making it unbalanced. If you make it unbalanced, you'd have to improve some other stats...
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Phew on August 16, 2011, 08:13:53 pm
First of all, practically no one uses the Long Bardiche, so it obviously doesn't need any kind of nerf. Everyone is too busy swinging their Bec.

Second, you see WAY more Poleaxes than Long Bardiches, so obviously people value thrust damage over swing damage.

The short axes need a damage and/or speed buff, and the 2H Bardiches also need some love (add thrust?). Don't nerf a weapon practically no one uses anyway just because the GLA was over-nerfed.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Leshma on August 16, 2011, 08:23:26 pm
I must agree with you, I would like to see some other weapons buffed. Now when everyone has +14 to their armor weapons are way too weak. We need stronger weapons.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 17, 2011, 08:08:15 am
Are there alot of long bardiche users on EU servers?  Cause as far as I can see I'm the only person on the NA servers carrying one most nights.  On rare occasions I've seen a player pop in with one, then later they have a bec or poleaxe.  When did the bardiche become some rampant OP weapon plaguing the servers?
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Torp on August 17, 2011, 08:32:08 am
Quote from: Gorath on August 17, 2011, 08:08:15 am
Are there alot of long bardiche users on EU servers?  Cause as far as I can see I'm the only person on the NA servers carrying one most nights.  On rare occasions I've seen a player pop in with one, then later they have a bec or poleaxe.  When did the bardiche become some rampant OP weapon plaguing the servers?

OP and popular isn't the same even though you like to think so since that allows you to scream 'Nerf archers, buff everything i use!*
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 17, 2011, 09:30:41 am
Quote from: Torp on August 17, 2011, 08:32:08 am
OP and popular isn't the same even though you like to think so since that allows you to scream 'Nerf archers, buff everything i use!*

I haven't actually called for a buff to any weapon, much less one I use OTHER than the ashwood pike.  And that wasn't even a call for a buff but a re-balance in order to give it a purpose.  Personally I don't care if ya'll nerf the long bardiche, I'll use it anyways because I like the look.  Just like with my Mancleaver even though it's the 2h sword that has no purpose, is unbalanced without shield breaking, and generally is meaningless in the scheme of 2h sword internal balance.  /shrug
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: zagibu on August 18, 2011, 12:05:18 am
The mancleaver is good. The long bardiche is even better. Compared to the axes, it is a bit too good. Very long, okay speed and very high damage. Lower swing damage by 2 points and balance would be restored IMO.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 18, 2011, 06:43:13 am
Quote from: zagibu on August 18, 2011, 12:05:18 am
The mancleaver is good. The long bardiche is even better. Compared to the axes, it is a bit too good. Very long, okay speed and very high damage. Lower swing damage by 2 points and balance would be restored IMO.

Works for me.

*I love the mancleaver.  But other than ultimate style points what do you mean by "good"?

War Cleaver
(click to show/hide)


Nodachi
(click to show/hide)


Highland Claymore
(click to show/hide)

Dadao
(click to show/hide)

Some have pierce (thrust attack), most are pretty similar overall except none of those are unbalanced.  Unbalanced is a pretty huge malus.  It's not that I think the Mancleaver is BAD, but rather it doesn't really have a purpose/place within the 2her internal balance (kind of like the ashwood pike, or say the broad short sword, etc.)  What's the niche role that other weapons don't do but better?  The most direct comparison is the Nodachi vs Warcleaver.  For 2 less cut damage you get the same 2her in function, only balanced and thus easier/more effective to duel/battle with.  As a bonus you get 2 more length also.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Thucydides on August 18, 2011, 08:25:12 am
i imagine giving mancleaver +1.5 weight, +2 cut damage would make it useful for stunning lesser weapons while making it a scary one shot kill weapon
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Phew on August 18, 2011, 03:16:20 pm
Quote from: zagibu on August 18, 2011, 12:05:18 am
The mancleaver is good. The long bardiche is even better. Compared to the axes, it is a bit too good. Very long, okay speed and very high damage. Lower swing damage by 2 points and balance would be restored IMO.

The Great Long Axe was over-nerfed a few patches ago, but that shouldn't be a reason to nerf the Long Bardiche, a weapon that is already a novelty. I just traded for a Mighty Long Bardiche; would you rather I conform and get a loomed Bec like everyone else? The Bec does more damage than GLB, GLA, LB, Flamberge etc on chain and above (i.e. everyone but archers and peasants, who would be 1-shot regardless).

Personally, I think there is a place for short, slow, hits-like-a-truck cut weapons in both 2H and pole; the axes should fit this role (raise axe damage by 2-3 across the board). The Bardiches should do a little less damage, since they are longer. However, don't get there by nerfing the bardiches, just buff the axes.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: zagibu on August 18, 2011, 11:47:58 pm
Quote from: Gorath on August 18, 2011, 06:43:13 am
Works for me.

*I love the mancleaver.  But other than ultimate style points what do you mean by "good"?


It doesn't get ultimate style points IMO, rather the opposite. With good I mean that it's very cheap, long, and hard hitting. Sure, it's unbalanced, which is a big disadvantage in 1vs1, but in battles, it doesn't matter much. I did well with GLB in battles. It's also unbalanced. Comparing it with the weapons you listed, I find it holds it's own very well. It's either longer, faster or does more damage than any of those. And it is cheaper than most.

I'm not saying the LB is op or something. It just makes those axes a bit obsolete IMO, atm. Lower cut dmg by 2 and it's ok. Or make it unbalanced, but then it has to be buffed a bit, maybe in speed.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 19, 2011, 06:31:03 am
Zag.  You highly undervalue the overall detriment of unbalanced.  It's rather huge in battle as well since it leads to both more tk's due to being able to stop your swing when some idiot teammate runs in front of you, or protect yourself when your enemy's teammate lunges in with a last second attack by being able to cancel the attack and perform the emergency block like with balanced weapons.

Don't get me wrong, I like unbalanced as a mechanic.  Most of my favorite weapons are unbalanced, however it truly is a large detriment.  Hardly balanced by a mere 2 cut or 1 speed point.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 19, 2011, 07:52:15 am
I have to agree with gorath regarding the warcleaver's unbalanced stat, needs a boost somewhere (damage)
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Siiem on August 19, 2011, 09:12:20 am
Quote from: Marathon on August 19, 2011, 07:52:15 am
I have to agree with gorath regarding the warcleaver's unbalanced stat, needs a boost somewhere (damage)

It's already 45... besides I think it's used to sparsely because it looks like a giant butter knife.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 19, 2011, 09:47:56 am
Quote from: Siiem on August 19, 2011, 09:12:20 am
It's already 45... besides I think it's used to sparsely because it looks like a giant butter knife.

To each their own.  In my eyes the Mancleaver is the most badass of all the weapons in the game.  It screams alpha male.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Siiem on August 19, 2011, 10:11:15 am
Quote from: Gorath on August 19, 2011, 09:47:56 am
To each their own.  In my eyes the Mancleaver is the most badass of all the weapons in the game.  It screams alpha male.

Or, "Gorath is insecure about his manhood".
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Thucydides on August 19, 2011, 10:13:38 am
Quote from: Siiem on August 19, 2011, 10:11:15 am
Or, "Gorath is insecure about his manhood".

if this were the case, he'd be using a pike
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: zagibu on August 19, 2011, 07:23:16 pm
No, it looks like a weapon out of one of those ridiculous japanese cartoons, where most of the animation consists of scrolling backgrounds.

Well, I have played and am still playing with unbalanced weapons as well, and didn't/don't feel it was a big problem. Maybe I underestimate it, but that is my impression. I did fairly well with a GLB, and am not bad with a Morningstar either.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Karmazyn on August 19, 2011, 08:54:59 pm
Bonus against shield should go with unbalanced hand in hand.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 09:01:52 am
Quote from: Karmazyn on August 19, 2011, 08:54:59 pm
Bonus against shield should go with unbalanced hand in hand.

That's always been my thought as well.

Quote from: zagibu on August 19, 2011, 07:23:16 pm
No, it looks like a weapon out of one of those ridiculous japanese cartoons, where most of the animation consists of scrolling backgrounds.

I guess.  Except it was a real weapon used in warfare.  It's basically just a large machete.
Maciejovski bible
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Modern day replicas
http://www.renaissance-outfits.com/two-handed-full-tang-medieval-chopper-sword-36-p-321.html
http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-4666-two-hand-functional-medieval-chopper-sg-2213.aspx
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Teeth on August 20, 2011, 09:27:34 am
I hate fighting with unbalanced weapons, but maybe I should so I stop being such a feintspammer by habit. I agree the warcleaver is slightly underpowered and it does look epic. A klappvisier and a mancleaver together is just badass. The warcleaver should get the unbalanced thingy removed and become 90 speed.

Oh wait, the long bardiche. It is indeed a very good weapon for its price, but I wouldn't call it overpowered really, although it could get a slight damage nerf.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Thucydides on August 20, 2011, 10:13:20 am
Quote from: Karmazyn on August 19, 2011, 08:54:59 pm
Bonus against shield should go with unbalanced hand in hand.

except the Dane Axes were not unbalanced, and this is what the long war axe and Great long axe were based off of.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: [ptx] on August 20, 2011, 12:01:17 pm
Quote from: Berserkadin on August 13, 2011, 01:03:21 pm
Then why do you barely see anyone use the long bardiche?
Because everyone uses the GREAT long bardiche?  :lol:
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: zagibu on August 20, 2011, 08:49:18 pm
Quote from: Karmazyn on August 19, 2011, 08:54:59 pm
Bonus against shield should go with unbalanced hand in hand.

Why? I see no link there, sorry.

Quote from: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 09:01:52 am
I guess.  Except it was a real weapon used in warfare.  It's basically just a large machete.
Maciejovski bible

Oh, you want a 90cm 2h chopper? Sure, why not. You could also get one of the axes though, they are a bit longer, and have bonus against shields. Sticking with the fantasy-weapon? Thought so.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 09:53:42 pm
Quote from: zagibu on August 20, 2011, 08:49:18 pm
Sticking with the fantasy-weapon?

So just sticking your fingers in your ears while repeating Lalalalala is where you're at in this discussion then?  Good to know.

"http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1460"
"Medieval Chopper-not a name that inspires sonnets or reverence, but appropriate! If ever a weapon was designed to split helmets, we believe this is it. This style weapon appears in several other period manuscripts besides the Maciejowski Bible. Ours is copied from plate 21, "The Rescue of Lot," but appears on a few other plates. The single edged blade is broad and flat with a good, sharp edge. The two-hand grip provides a tremendous amount of leverage, generating a lot of force. This functional sword is an overall of 38 1/2" * Blade-32" long, 2" wide * Wt.-3 lbs. 4 oz."

38.5"
97.8 cm  Would work for me just fine actually.  Would be nice to make a "bastard" cleaver instead of a 2h'd one, like the Langes Messer.  Alternate between 1h/2h via the weapon mode key.  Also remove the unbalanced tag.  Or give bonus vs shields, either one.  /shrug.

Of course it's not like the Warcleaver is the only 2h'd sword that was enlarged OR shrunk down for visual impact here:

Claymore - cRPG 117cm - Accurately "The average claymore ran about 140 cm (55 in) in overall length, with a 33 cm (13 in) grip, 107 cm (42 in) blade, and a weight of approximately 5.5 lb (2.5 kg)."

German Zweihanders - cRPG 123cm - Accurately The Zweihänder could be up to 180 cm (6 ft) long from the base of the pommel to the tip of the blade, with a 120–150 cm (4–5 ft) blade and 30–45 cm (1–1½ ft) hilt. The weight could range between 2 kg and 3.2 kg (4½–7 lb). Some were shorter, though. Earlier versions, in particular, often had an overall length of about 150 cm (5 ft), weighing as little as 1½ kg (3 lb 5 oz).

Longsword/Bastard sword - cRPG 106cm - Accurately Weight avg. 1.5 kg (3.3 lb), Length avg. 105–120 cm (41–47 in).  Probably the most accurate 2her in cRPG.

2h'd axes - Firstly shouldn't really exist, all of these axes would be used via polearm grip, but that's another debate for another thread.  IE:  No such thing as a "2h" axe, only 1h and poleaxes based off of grip and usage. - cRPG 96cm (2h) 115cm (Pole aka valid "2h" axe) - Accurately . Average weight of an axe this size is between 1 kg and 2 kg (2 and 4 pounds). Proportionally, the long axe has more in common with a modern meat cleaver than a wood axe. This complex construction results in a lively and quick weapon with devastating cutting ability.
Based on period depictions, the haft of a Longaxe for combat was usually between approx. 0.9 m and 1.2 m (3 and 4 feet) long

Anyways, /geek

Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: cmp on August 20, 2011, 10:26:22 pm
Quote from: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 09:53:42 pm
German Zweihanders - cRPG 123cm

The Flamberge is a Zweihänder (152 cm).
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 11:08:24 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on August 20, 2011, 10:26:22 pm
The Flamberge is a Zweihänder (152 cm).

Then what is the German Greatsword?  Flamberge is it's own weapon afaik.
Granted Wikipedia is shit for most everything, but it's somewhat useful for quick references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweihander
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: cmp on August 20, 2011, 11:49:59 pm
The weapon is a Zweihänder, flamberge just means it has a wavy blade.
The German Greatsword is an XVIIIb (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-munich-xviiib.htm) I'd say.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Xant on August 21, 2011, 12:01:38 am
There's something about swords that just makes you want to pick one up and go pillaging.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Thucydides on August 21, 2011, 12:04:35 am
Quote from: Xant on August 21, 2011, 12:01:38 am
There's something about swords that just makes you want to pick one up and go pillaging.

Theres something about pikes that makes you want to conquer europe.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Xant on August 21, 2011, 12:05:43 am
Quote from: Thucydides on August 21, 2011, 12:04:35 am
Theres something about pikes that makes you want to conquer europe.

Naw, man. Just look at those swords in Cmpx's link. Don't they make you wish you were born earlier? 'Cuz if they don't, you're not a man, you're a wo-man.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 21, 2011, 12:39:13 am
Quote from: Xant on August 21, 2011, 12:05:43 am
Naw, man. Just look at those swords in Cmpx's link. Don't they make you wish you were born earlier? 'Cuz if they don't, you're not a man, you're a wo-man.

Not really.  Never been a huge fan of swords or knightly things.  I'd much rather have been born during the more barbaric periods with weapons that were made to maul, maim and cause mutilations vs quick deaths.  Back when there was no real metal armor protection and the screams of the dying and disembowled echoed across the battlefields for extended periods of time as they suffered from the wounds.  Waiting for someo merciful soul to come along and mercy kill them.  *Such as flamethrowers during WWII were far more epic than just standard guns.  Setting people on fire > Quick kills in terms of sheer epicness.*

The age of chivalry and honor is more akin to the age of boy fucking noble inbreeding bundle of stickss.
/rant
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: rustyspoon on August 21, 2011, 12:58:56 am
Quote from: Gorath on August 21, 2011, 12:39:13 am
The age of chivalry and honor is more akin to the age of boy fucking noble inbreeding bundle of stickss.

Thanks for the new sig! + 1
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Thucydides on August 21, 2011, 03:21:50 am
Quote from: Xant on August 21, 2011, 12:05:43 am
Naw, man. Just look at those swords in Cmpx's link. Don't they make you wish you were born earlier? 'Cuz if they don't, you're not a man, you're a wo-man.

Combined arms tactics of Philip the Second turns me on harder than a sharp pointy sword
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: zagibu on August 21, 2011, 03:19:22 pm
Quote from: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 09:53:42 pm
So just sticking your fingers in your ears while repeating Lalalalala is where you're at in this discussion then?  Good to know.

Why do you think it was not 120cm long in the real world? Maybe, if you think about it, you might start to agree with me that the current version in cRPG is, indeed, a fantasy weapon.

Quote from: Gorath on August 20, 2011, 09:53:42 pm
97.8 cm  Would work for me just fine actually.  Would be nice to make a "bastard" cleaver instead of a 2h'd one, like the Langes Messer.  Alternate between 1h/2h via the weapon mode key.  Also remove the unbalanced tag.  Or give bonus vs shields, either one.  /shrug.

Look at the weapon. Then tell me again that such a weapon can ever be balanced. Not even with a handle made of lead. And while it is certainly better at splitting things than a regular sword, it is nowhere as good as an axe, because an axe actually takes all this metal that is used for the blade in the cleaver and condenses it into one fat wedge.

But realism shouldn't be used as an argument to balance weapons in a game. As much as I dislike the current version of the cleaver, it is pretty well balanced.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: Gorath on August 21, 2011, 06:46:18 pm
Quote from: zagibu on August 21, 2011, 03:19:22 pm
Why do you think it was not 120cm long in the real world? Maybe, if you think about it, you might start to agree with me that the current version in cRPG is, indeed, a fantasy weapon. 
No, it's an exaggeration or misrepresentation of a REAL historical weapon.  Quite a difference.

Quote from: zagibu on August 21, 2011, 03:19:22 pm
Look at the weapon. Then tell me again that such a weapon can ever be balanced. Not even with a handle made of lead. And while it is certainly better at splitting things than a regular sword, it is nowhere as good as an axe, because an axe actually takes all this metal that is used for the blade in the cleaver and condenses it into one fat wedge.

But realism shouldn't be used as an argument to balance weapons in a game. As much as I dislike the current version of the cleaver, it is pretty well balanced.

I don't see why it wouldn't feel balanced given the size of the handle, and the width of the grip you would use with it.  Even in all the articles and manuscripts about the real choppers they are described as surprisingly balanced and provides amazing leverage.  Also with the accurate version only being 95-100cm long in total length, as a 2h'd capable weapon I see no reason to think it wouldn't respond fluidly.

Anyways, I understand that it's all about the herp derp shiny tinmen weapons and armor, but I think it's a shame that alot of the better looking more barbaric weapons are inferior all around rather than having their own proper niche other than being (sometimes) less expensive.
Title: Re: Long Bardiche
Post by: zagibu on August 22, 2011, 08:13:21 pm
Weapons from japanese cartoons are also exaggerations of real weapons. Where do you draw the line? For me, a fantasy weapon is a weapon that is unfit for real combat. I ask you again: Why do you think the real war cleavers were not 120cm long?

Also, you don't seem to know what balance means. It means two things: A) that the overall weight of the sword is not too high and B) that the center of mass is close to the handle, not the tip. It is simply not possible to make a weapon like the cleaver balanced. And to wield such a weapon one-handed...forget it.

But again, realism is irrelevant. What is relevant is balance compared to other 2h weapons, and, as I have said, and as you seem to disagree on, the cleaver does fine in this respect.