cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 05:20:00 am

Title: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 05:20:00 am
Taking a look at the stats:
- Great Maul:
Length: 68
Speed rating: 80
Swing damage: 43b
Weight: 8

- Long Maul:
Lenght: 125
Weight: 7 ?
Speed rating: 70
Swing damage: 37 ?

- How can a 68 lenght maul have more weight than a 125 one?
- If great maul have +1 weight... how can be +10 speed fast?
- Great maul have +6 damage than long maul. 43 blunt is OP.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/blunte.jpg/)

That hammer have a 48 average dmg against 50 armor.

Instructions:
- Get near.
- Block one time.
- Spam overhead.
- (80speed is faster to attack without being outspammed again. If you don't think so, just try to do the same with the long maul)

My suggestion:
- Lowering damage & weight of great maul or speed. 80speed is faster for that monster.
- Long maul is balanced.
-- Modified with two new suggestion:
-- Flag great maul as unsheatable.
-- Make great maul 3 slots.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Kalp on August 03, 2011, 11:10:17 am
Quote
My suggestion:
- Lowering damage & weight of great maul or speed. 80speed is faster for that monster.
- Long maul is balanced.
I think the same.

+1
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Magikarp on August 03, 2011, 11:57:20 am
My god, ofc a long maul has less speed, it has way more reach.

Great Mauls are only good in the hands of guys who know how to use it well. And than it's still your fault if you get overheaded, because you should just sidestep and spam em when they try that.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Mala on August 03, 2011, 01:10:25 pm
You cant just side step, because of the faulty animation. Even if they hit your toe you will die.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Torben on August 03, 2011, 01:33:25 pm
the long maul has a longer lever,  so naturaly it is a) slower and
needs to be b) lighter.

however beeing at the end of a longer lever,  the traveling speed of the hitting end is probably higher relativ to the great mauls speed,  which should make up for the weight disadvantage. 
 so if anything,  the long maul needs to be buffed,  haha.

seriously tho.  i want people that have to be gangbanged to overcome them.  like a highly skilled great maul user. 

so i say nay to a great maul nerf  : )
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Laufknoten on August 03, 2011, 01:41:13 pm
Less speed for the great maul would do it. Or give the long maul atleast 75 speed, 70 is just slomo and you get outspammed by everything.   
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 02:07:29 pm
Quote from: Torben on August 03, 2011, 01:33:25 pm
the long maul has a longer lever,  so naturaly it is a) slower and
needs to be b) lighter.

however beeing at the end of a longer lever,  the traveling speed of the hitting end is probably higher relativ to the great mauls speed,  which should make up for the weight disadvantage. 
 so if anything,  the long maul needs to be buffed,  haha.

seriously tho.  i want people that have to be gangbanged to overcome them.  like a highly skilled great maul user. 

so i say nay to a great maul nerf  : )

So, need quarter staff  to have speed 70 because it's longer?. No. Speed rating need to be balanced with weight. Lighter weapons have to be faster than weighter ones. In crushtrough weapons 8 weight is an abuse. With 21 strenght you can crushtrough everybody. For example, with this common build: 21 str, 18 agi you have the enough strength (because 8 weight) to crush and enough agi to avoid to be outranged by backpedal or sidestep.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Torben on August 03, 2011, 02:41:13 pm
Quote from: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 02:07:29 pm
So, need quarter staff  to have speed 70 because it's longer?. No. Speed rating need to be balanced with weight. Lighter weapons have to be faster than weighter ones.
I holeheartedly disagree,  and i dont see any further need of explanation : )
Quote from: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 02:07:29 pm
In crushtrough weapons 8 weight is an abuse. With 21 strenght you can crushtrough everybody. For example, with this common build: 21 str, 18 agi you have the enough strength (because 8 weight) to crush and enough agi to avoid to be outranged by backpedal or sidestep.

again:  I want strong oponents.  why the fuck should we not want challenges in this game? 
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 03:15:17 pm
Quote from: Torben on August 03, 2011, 02:41:13 pm
I holeheartedly disagree,  and i dont see any further need of explanation : )
again:  I want strong oponents.  why the fuck should we not want challenges in this game?

You want strong oponents to stab them from behind with your lance. Am I Right torben? ;-)
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Torben on August 03, 2011, 03:31:16 pm
: D  well i love having challenging oponents when on my horse.
but i  am on foot a lot atm aswell.  and i was a shielder for a quite some time (not a good one ^^) (it took ages for me to know hat i can block a lance by blocking down)  and what i loved most were those "heros"  roaming the fields back than.  TheFinn,  Olwen and a few select others, people that always were a highlight to kill.
  maybe thats why i dont want everything to be nerfed,  its just way more fun to kill someone who is very dangerous.  and a skilled man with a great maul is very dangerous.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Starfucker on August 03, 2011, 07:11:12 pm
Long Maul is almost twice the length of the Great Maul. If you can't figure out why this is a huge advantage, you need to play with the mauls more.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Camaris on August 03, 2011, 07:15:43 pm
If there would be a list of items which have to be balanced Great Maul wouldnt even make it in the top10.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: ThePoopy on August 03, 2011, 08:00:53 pm
sideswing with eny of the mauls and u wont get outspammed, or block until enemy stabs and u get a free hit
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Digglez on August 03, 2011, 08:57:31 pm
Quote from: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 05:20:00 am
Taking a look at the stats:
- Great Maul:
Length: 68
Speed rating: 80
Swing damage: 43b
Weight: 8

- Long Maul:
Lenght: 125
Weight: 7 ?
Speed rating: 70
Swing damage: 37 ?

- How can a 68 lenght maul have more weight than a 125 one?
- If great maul have +1 weight... how can be +10 speed fast?
- Great maul have +6 damage than long maul. 43 blunt is OP.


Clearly you dont understand basis of physics involving levers and fulcrums.

the shorter something is the faster it can be swung and with less energy
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 09:04:21 pm
Quote from: Digglez on August 03, 2011, 08:57:31 pm
Clearly you dont understand basis of physics involving levers and fulcrums.

the shorter something is the faster it can be swung and with less energy

?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Get a wooden stick. You can swing it as fast as you want. Take a maul. Try to swing it. So, what is the difficult for swinging? Reach or weight? The more length the more speed on it opposite edge. Please, if you post something, at least contribute to the post.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: DarkFox on August 03, 2011, 09:14:04 pm
Quote
Instructions:
- Get near.
- Block one time.
- Spam overhead.
- (80speed is faster to attack without being outspammed again. If you don't think so, just try to do the same with the long maul)
Good luck with doing it against skilled oponent.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Digglez on August 03, 2011, 09:30:02 pm
Quote from: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 09:04:21 pm
Get a wooden stick. You can swing it as fast as you want. Take a maul. Try to swing it. So, what is the difficult for swinging? Reach or weight? The more length the more speed on it opposite edge. Please, if you post something, at least contribute to the post.

Basic middle school physics formula
v=velocity or speed, d=distance traveled, t=time

v=d/t

if you want to travel twice as far in the same amount of time, you have to go twice as fast.

You realize that when you swing a long weapon, it has to travel further to reach the target right?

a heavier and longer weapon swinging faster is against the rules of physics chief  (ruling out other factors like air resistance and whatnot)
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Uumdi on August 03, 2011, 09:33:11 pm
granted, I'm with you guys on boostin the long maul, but it is such an amazing weapon already.  Certainly not a duel weapon, but 37 blunt is nothing weak.  Its phenominal for taking people out who's guard is down, don't always need to focus on the overhead with it.  I would love to see it have more weight for more crushthrough, but I trust it weighs 7.0 for a reason, if thats how much it weighs, thats how much it weighs. 

Long Maul you just gotta be really aware, and kind of be a roaming support character.  The so called difference between 2H and polearm is just that - 2H is aggressive, high speed / high damage / low reach, while polearms are meant for strictly support, or somewhere in between the two.  Its just a support weapon, which means you're extremely restricted when using it, but 37 blunt damage is nuts for a weapon thats 125 weapon length.  Side swings are probably gonna get you most of your kills with it.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: NuberT on August 03, 2011, 09:48:07 pm
+1 for buffing long maul  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Torben on August 04, 2011, 01:15:49 am
wow,  so this thread went from a "nerf great maul" to a "buff long maul" discussion.  haha
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Dach on August 04, 2011, 03:20:42 am
yep, being longer the damage done from long maul should be higher.

I would make it 48b. I would up the weight to 8 while keeping the speed the same.

Since the slow speed it's a do or die weapon, if you fuck up you're dead. So at least when you hit it should hurt like hell.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Starfucker on August 04, 2011, 04:15:21 am
Quote from: Dach on August 04, 2011, 03:20:42 am
yep, being longer the damage done from long maul should be higher.

I would make it 48b. I would up the weight to 8 while keeping the speed the same.

Since the slow speed it's a do or die weapon, if you fuck up you're dead. So at least when you hit it should hurt like hell.

On the realism side of things I agree with you somewhat. It may be slower and lighter weight, but its longer so it could definitely end up hitting harder. On the balance side of things, I couldn't disagree with you more. The difference between the great maul and the long maul is that the long maul can get the first hit in most of the time and the great maul can not (assuming ideal conditions for both you and your target). If that first long maul hit is an 8 weight  48b(!) motherfucker, it's going to destroy pretty much everyone without heavy armor, a heavy shield or a longer weapon.

The great maul is faster, but it's not going to win you any duels. The overhead is really slow. If you try it mid duel, you're going to be hit every time. You can win with sideswings and facehugging, but the swings are slow and predictable and you can be outspammed by many of the faster weapons. On the other hand, the long maul can't really get a swing in if the opponent puts on pressure. It does have range though, which means it doesn't have to facehug and can dance and backpedal to get a hit in. The polearm stab it has is useful for keeping distance and getting in a tricky hit.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses in group combat. The great maul's short length allows you to hit only whoever you aim at. This means less team hits and less side swings blocked by opponents at your side, making sideswings more useful in group combat. On the other hand you need to be close to hit people with it. This means you're more likely to be hit by both friends and enemies. The long maul can hit from farther back in the pack and overhead over friendly heads.

IMO they're roughly equal although very different beasts. If I had to choose, I'd say the long maul is the best maul in the game. Length is hugely important for getting that all important first swing, and you just can't ignore the difference.

Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Uumdi on August 04, 2011, 07:01:29 am
I'd be happy to buff long maul just cuz its finally a buff instead of a nerf.  48 damage is outrageous though, haha.  I'd say keep the damage, and just up the weight to 8.0 for crushthrough factor.  Speed should stay same, and should remain unbalanced, cuz I couldn't swing it half that fast IRL if my life depended on it.  Thats just me though, I'm a lover not a fighter.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: NuberT on August 04, 2011, 10:26:58 am
found my good olde torn to pieces buff long maul thread http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4885.0.html
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: v/onMega on August 04, 2011, 04:15:58 pm
Buff LOng Maul a little.Yes.

Nerf Great Maul?
Maul halten.

Great Maul is such a rare sight, ppl. knowing how to use it even more.

If its such a perfect weapon, why isn t every 2 h player using it?


Once again, ppl. asking to destroy every ounce of unique equipement in this game.


Might want to try to get better against the players using it before spamming forums?

Ill go for 1h too soon, ill just spam em to death...just dont panic  xD.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Laufknoten on August 04, 2011, 04:46:09 pm
Quote from: v/onMega on August 04, 2011, 04:15:58 pm
If its such a perfect weapon, why isn t every 2 h player using it?
I see quite a lot of people using it as a "sidearm", so they don't have to put effort into killing shielders. :rolleyes: 

Quote
ill just spam em to death
good luck...
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Gorath on August 04, 2011, 05:21:36 pm
Quote from: Starfucker on August 04, 2011, 04:15:21 am
The great maul is faster, but it's not going to win you any duels.

What?  You just need a proper build.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: ThePoopy on August 05, 2011, 10:07:23 pm
long maul is awesome
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Elmetiacos on August 07, 2011, 03:32:58 pm
Great Maul is only any use on the more confined siege maps. Once again this is a case of "World War I Tank Syndrome" where people who get hit by a maul a couple of times come to believe they are OP whereas as the actual users know different. My advice is to try using one for a while and see how far you get. As a "Lolhammerer" you are a support class - attempt to fight anyone one-on-one, or try leading the charge and everyone will immediately spam you to death because your weapon is so slow you can hardly defend yourself, let alone ever think about getting in a counter attack.
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 13, 2011, 06:34:20 pm
Quote from: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 05:20:00 am
Taking a look at the stats:
- Great Maul:
Length: 68
Speed rating: 80
Swing damage: 43b
Weight: 8

- Long Maul:
Lenght: 125
Weight: 7 ?
Speed rating: 70
Swing damage: 37 ?

- How can a 68 lenght maul have more weight than a 125 one?
- If great maul have +1 weight... how can be +10 speed fast?
- Great maul have +6 damage than long maul. 43 blunt is OP.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/blunte.jpg/)

That hammer have a 48 average dmg against 50 armor.

Instructions:
- Get near.
- Block one time.
- Spam overhead.
- (80speed is faster to attack without being outspammed again. If you don't think so, just try to do the same with the long maul)

My suggestion:
- Lowering damage & weight of great maul or speed. 80speed is faster for that monster.
- Long maul is balanced.
-- Modified with two new suggestion:
-- Flag great maul as unsheatable.
-- Make great maul 3 slots.

uhm funny thing is this silly thread pops just after you got butthurt a lot by that great maul... the diagnosis is:
common post-GTX thread

now seriously. polearm just have all those silly balanced jack-of-all trades poleaxes. shieldbreakers with skyhigh cut swing, 30ish pierce thrust, 130 length, all in one weapon.

(click to show/hide)


polearms have the best piercer (bec de corbin) by far superior than a morningstar.
polearms have the best shieldbreakers (as just stated... GLA, poleaxes)
polearms have exclusive pikes and lances
and guess what's next? polearms stuns.

and you come complaining about the fact that great maul is better than long maul... so? GLA is better than Great Axe, Awlpike is better than the GGS... so what? you really want nearly the same stats? then we should apply this to all the polearms/2h lines... then we remove UNBALANCED stat to all the 2h axes, we put back the 30ish pierce on swords, and put back crushthru to morningstar.

is just like saying "Hey crossbows are underpowered! bows reload WAY faster! we want xbows to shoot 30 bolts per minute like bows!"

what OP says is pure BS... just got butthurted.. nothing more nothing less.

and oh yes... just another buff to polearms and the last of a long series to 2h nerfs. GG
Title: Re: Long Maul & Great Maul
Post by: rustyspoon on August 13, 2011, 06:45:20 pm
As someone who's been partying with the long maul recently, I think it's fine.

In a support role -which is what it was designed for- the long maul is fantastic. When running with a clan mate, it's easy for me to go 25-2 on a map causing rage all around. I think adding any more weight or damage to the thing would make it ridiculously OP.

For the great maul, it's balanced with it's stupid short range. It's easy as hell to kill the average maul user unless they are a chambering fiend like Palatro.