cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Mouse on July 30, 2011, 08:02:15 am

Title: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Mouse on July 30, 2011, 08:02:15 am
I'm just coming back to cRPG after a hiatus, which means I'll be making more Maps That Don't Suck(tm), so be nice. :wink:

I'm not sure how PD works anymore and I'm wondering if someone can give me proof positive of its effects on archery, and by that I mean screenshots or a current comment from a dev. I used my STF this week to try 6PD/6WM and then 8PD/6WM with all points into bows. I have another character with 5PD/7WM and tried to compare the horn bows and (where applicable) long bows between these.

I didn't take screenshots but rather eyeballed the differences in accuracy from static positions on a map, because I expected a noticeable difference. I took a rough estimate of how long I could hold the bow at full accuracy. I fired arrows for a full minute at full accuracy to check rate of fire. Allegedly having PD above the bow's requirement increases accuracy, but as far as I could tell it still slightly decreases both accuracy and rate of fire. Going just by feel in siege, I thought it would be better to use 6PD with 7 or 8 WM. I felt like going to 8PD wasn't worth it, but that's only my subjective experience based on one short day of play.

Unfortunately I don't have quadrupleped[sic] masterpanzerworken[also also sic] gear and a level 47 generation 82 archer like Damatacus, and I definitely don't have time to roll 10 characters to compare the differences between all possible archer (and horse archer) builds. Waiting an entire week to check each build I'm curious about will take a month, which is about a month longer than I'd care to wait before having fun. (I've got 1 heirloom point since cRPG was released, and I got that back when you could retire at level 15. That should give you an idea of my play schedule.)
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Kong Ming on July 30, 2011, 07:35:06 pm
Power Draw definitely increases accuracy.  How it compares with WPF is unclear to me, but you can see a gif animation I made to compare bows here.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12057.0.html

I used the same character, and simply switched bows.  The bows with lower PD requirements are progressively and significantly more accurate, confirming that having PD above the requirement improves accuracy.  My guess is that the base Accuracy Rating of the bow is altered proportionally by some value derived from the ratio of your PD versus the bow's required PD.

How then to create the most accurate archer possible?  The jury's still out, since I don't understand yet how WPF affects accuracy.  When I get to make another "skip the fun" character I'll do another test, at which time I'll also try to test whether rate of fire is affected by PD, but I'm fairly certain that that depends entirely on WPF.  The other question to investigate is how long you can hold the crosshairs steady.  The easier bows allowed for MUCH longer sustain, but this was also true of another archer character I made who only had PD 4 instead of 7.  So I think the higher PD bows just don't maintain their aim as long, regardless of the character's PD.  Still need to test.  Hope this is helpful!

P.S. I have no idea why the Horn Bow was so out of place in this test, that's why I posted the animation in the Bug Forum.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Digglez on July 30, 2011, 08:02:24 pm
Quote from: Kong Ming on July 30, 2011, 07:35:06 pm
I used the same character, and simply switched bows.

Uh your experiment is nil if you werent comparing the SAME BOW with different levels of PD.  Switching bows accomplishes nothing as they each have their own accuracy rating
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Cup1d on July 30, 2011, 08:35:26 pm
make an alt
make him STF character

Distribute points in something like this

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 27
Agility: 15
Hit points: 62
Unused skill points: 3
Skills to attributes: 14
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 9
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 146
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

put 5 pd for testing purposes
Test char with 5pd and 146 wpf
Add pd one by one and see how PD ruin your accuracy
I recommend you to try testing dispersion of bows (20-30 arrows) with non moving reticule.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: KingKessler on July 31, 2011, 05:35:13 pm
yeah i had the same feeling... PD decreases accuracy
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Gafferjack on July 31, 2011, 07:34:51 pm
My personal observations for the higher tier bows (and screenshot comparison testing, which I deleted for some reason) have been that PD over your bow's requirement will reduce your accuracy unless you add extra WPF to compensate. High PD accuracy compared to a lower PD accuracy at the same WPF will be lower unless you have next to non-existent Archery WPF (at which point you'll get the error message).

If you want to test draw speed and accuracy comparisons yourself without having to use many STF builds, try this:

Code: [Select]
Level 30

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 18

    Skills to attributes: 14

    Power Draw: 8
    Weapon Master: 6

    Archery: 150
Start at your bow's PD requirement and screenshot the smallest reticle you can (through multiple screenshots), then increase your PD by 1 and do the same thing; note the difference in your reticle size between the two and find the amount of accuracy you want. For draw speed, time how long it takes to shoot a stack or two of arrows for each PD and then compare results.

I'm fairly certain that PD lowers your Archery WPF; I don't see any other way that you can get less accuracy with more PD.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Mouse on August 01, 2011, 02:48:32 am
I just took screenshots, though I'm too lazy to post them right now. I might get around to it. I compared two characters.

1. PD 5, WPF 160. Tatar. Horn.
2. PD 8, WPF 154. Tatar. Horn. Long.

The character with PD 8 is significantly more accurate and can hold a tight reticule for a little bit longer. The PD8 longbow in these tests was also more accurate than a PD5 horn bow, but not a PD8 horn bow. I didn't test definitely for fire rate yet, though I know the longbow is about 18 APM and I think the horn bow is about 22 APM on both characters. I wish I could compare different WPFs in increments of 10 for accuracy and rate of fire at the same PD. Any takers?

I'm wondering if a horse archer with HA 3 but higher PD (and possibly using a yumi) would actually be better all around than the standard PD5/Horn build.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Gafferjack on August 01, 2011, 05:50:11 am
Quote from: Mouse on August 01, 2011, 02:48:32 am
The character with PD 8 is significantly more accurate and can hold a tight reticule for a little bit longer. The PD8 longbow in these tests was also more accurate than a PD5 horn bow, but not a PD8 horn bow.

I don't have any testing experience with bows lower than Horn Bow, but if you're getting an accuracy increase then, by all means, put more points into PD. One example of PD reducing accuracy was 146 WPF using a Long Bow at PD6 and then PD9; the accuracy difference was clearly noticeable, and favoring PD6 (this also happens to be the build that Cup1d suggested testing). Whether that's changed since the most recent patch is unknown.

Quote from: Mouse on August 01, 2011, 02:48:32 am
I'm wondering if a horse archer with HA 3 but higher PD (and possibly using a yumi) would actually be better all around than the standard PD5/Horn build.

These screenshots were taken about 3 days ago:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Unless I've capped out on the accuracy increase for these bows, the difference isn't that large between 10 WPF. If you're considering using the Yumi from horseback, the only significant drawback is the missile speed; this does help in damage from speed bonuses, though. Besides that, I'd say it's the superior choice.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Mouse on August 01, 2011, 12:14:09 pm
I'm sad you're not zoomed in on those pics but the PD6 yumi is a little bit more accurate than the PD5 horn regardless of WPF. It is easy to see when you flip between the screens. I think it'd be more noticeable if you zoomed. (Please don't tell me zoom makes bows less accurate...)
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Mouse on August 01, 2011, 12:22:44 pm
Don't laugh at DirectX 7. 8-)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

So yeah: marginally less WPF but 3 more PD and more accurate with both horn bow and tatar bow. Long bow included for reference. WPF154 is what you get at level 30 with WM6 and all points sunk into archery.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Magikarp on August 01, 2011, 03:39:00 pm
Than PD increases accuracy again.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Gafferjack on August 01, 2011, 05:53:12 pm
Quote from: Magikarp on August 01, 2011, 03:39:00 pm
Then PD increases accuracy again.

It has for a while (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,876.msg11499.html#msg11499), it's just there's some confusion as to when getting more WPF would be more beneficial to getting more PD.

This is an old quote from Fasader, so things might have changed.
Quote from: Fasader, February 27th, 2011
22:34:18 Fasader: 1pd 200wpf is worse in accuracy than 2pd 200wpf
22:35:49 Fasader: 6PD 200wpf is better in accuracy than 10pd 200wpf.

I'll be doing a test soon; I'll post my findings here when it's complete.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Mouse on August 02, 2011, 12:36:36 am
Quote from: Gafferjack on August 01, 2011, 05:53:12 pm
It has for a while (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,876.msg11499.html#msg11499), it's just there's some confusion as to when getting more WPF would be more beneficial to getting more PD.

This is an old quote from Fasader, so things might have changed.
I'll be doing a test soon; I'll post my findings here when it's complete.

Thanks! It would be nice to get this mystery solved once and for all. Then chadz will change it. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Kong Ming on August 02, 2011, 02:38:34 am
Quote from: Digglez on July 30, 2011, 08:02:24 pm
Uh your experiment is nil if you werent comparing the SAME BOW with different levels of PD.  Switching bows accomplishes nothing as they each have their own accuracy rating

Actually, you're wrong.  It's true they have different accuracy ratings, but the accuracy rating generally INCREASES with the higher-tier bows.  My experiment however shows that with a constant PD skill, the LOWER-tier bows are more accurate in practice.  This easily confirms that the lower-tier bows are therefore getting an accuracy bonus for the additional PD the character has OVER the requirement of the individual bow.  Therefore, it directly addresses the OP's question.

EDIT:  Your proposed experiment would also be an effective way to test this phenomenon however.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Mouse on August 04, 2011, 12:32:52 pm
I STF'd again today and tested a new character. I took screenshots each time I raised HA, PD, or WPF (in 10 point increments) on my way to a 21/18 horse archer build designed to see if the yumi could be worth using. After hours of tedious testing and screenshots, what did I discover?

Not a lot. :?

It seems like I was unable to get an accuracy increase on any bows as I went over the PD requirement this time. Mild differences in screenshots could be errors on my part in spite of me taking a half dozen screenshots or more attempting to capture an accurate reticule. In fact, I pretty much always lost a little bit of accuracy as I increased PD above the requirement. It's as if on my last character something magical happened when I finally reached PD8 on a 24/18 build.

So my nonsensical conclusion is that PD decreases accuracy a very small amount unless you have PD8, at which point you get a nice bonus over someone who has PD5 and similar WPF.

And for horse archers, HA4 is definitely a must.

For now it really does seem like the standard archer builds are the best.

1. Skirmisher: 15 Str, 24 Agi. 5 PS, 5 Ath, 5 PD, 8 WM. Melee WPF.
2. Horse Archer: 15 Str, 24 Agi. 4 HA, 6 Riding, 5 PD, 8 WM.
3. Dedicated Archer: 24 Str, 18 Agi. 3 Ath, 8 PD, 6 WM.

After hours of work for nothing informative, I give up on further testing; it'd be nice if some dev would give us the formula.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: KingKessler on August 04, 2011, 01:10:43 pm
3. Dedicated Archer: 24 Str, 18 Agi. 3 Ath, 8 PD, 6 WM.

I had this one for quite some time. But I outperform myself with a 18/21 archer.

8 PD means you need less hits, but you are hitting less. The improvement in damage doesnt justify the loss in accuracy.

With 6 PD almost every target needs 2,5 hits. (Except tincans, they want a long bow, I speak in rus bow.) 8 PD you take a lot down with only 2 hits, but the arrows fly in all directions.


4. The other thing is, there is an STR18/AGI24 archer. (just invest PS into STATS). Hes a pain for any melee fighter with his incredible fast Nike shoes. Dont forget this one
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Digglez on August 04, 2011, 07:20:07 pm
i made an archer alt 24/15 with 8PD and cant even hold hornbow more than a second before I start losing recticle, what gives?  I thought I'd be able to hold lower bows a LONG time
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Jayne_Cobbb on August 04, 2011, 11:36:26 pm
As an archer that has played nothing else (except a skill 13 shielder :) ), I can tell you that there are many variables to accuracy, not just crosshair size. 

The speed of the arrow for example.  IF people can just stepp out of the way, what is the point of having a small crosshair?  Also, having the accuracy big, but being able to drop anyone does no good either.  I recommend  the Rus bow, 8 pd, 6 WM, and 6 Athletics.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 04, 2011, 11:49:46 pm
At level 30 you get 3ATHL 8PD and 6WM.
To get the extra 3 ATHL you would have to make a level 31 build (and convert the attribute point into two more skill points) which is pretty pointless, since you should ideally either retire at 31 or go even higher for a proper 32 or 33 build.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Baggy on August 05, 2011, 05:51:29 am
Not if its meant to be an alt then building for 31 is fine.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 05, 2011, 05:55:23 am
Quote from: Baggy on August 05, 2011, 05:51:29 am
Not if its meant to be an alt then building for 31 is fine.

True, very true, 3 for alts does make a lot of sense. Never mind then.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: MrShine on August 05, 2011, 06:55:29 pm
I'm currently trying a very heavy strength build for archer. 

The build:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 27
    Agility: 12
    Hit points: 62

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Ironflesh: 0
    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 4
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 9
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 4

    One Handed: 1
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 139
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

The hypothesis: With nerf to arrow speed + nerf to cut damage long range is dead, long live medium short range!  The increased shoot speed from 9 power draw should compensate for any accuracy concerns, and with 27 str and 6 ps I should be able to hold my own in melee.  Ideally this build will 1 shot peasants and low strength builds, 2-3 shot light armors, and maybe even pester heavy armor.

Conclusion:  Not there yet, currently at 24/12 w/ 8 powerdraw.  I'm undecided so far... sometimes my accuracy feels great but I've been having a noticeable difficulty hitting cav from medium long range, something that was cake on earlier archer builds (most recent of which being 15/24).  People who juke a lot are still a pain which I thought would be remedied with such high power draw and assumed shoot speed.   Maybe the extra power draw will make a difference.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Mouse on August 05, 2011, 10:33:56 pm
Power draw is black magic.
Title: Re: Power Draw in current version of cRPG?
Post by: Gafferjack on August 07, 2011, 03:17:15 am
So I finished my test, and these are my findings (for PD5-8 and 150 Archery unless otherwise noted):

• Power Draw decreased my accuracy for all bows, and the more Power Draw I had, the less accurate I was.
• Power Draw also decreased my arrows per minute for each point allocated (except for a particular case, see below).
• WPF increases the hold time of your reticle by increasing your draw speed (giving you more time before your reticle starts to become inaccurate); comparing 6PD 170WPF & 8PD 150 WPF, the lower PD and higher WPF character was able to hold the reticle longer (by a noted amount).

If you want to be accurate, be able to hold your reticle, and draw a bit faster; go with less PD and more WPF.
If you want to be hard-hitting, and have faster arrow flight; go with more PD.
Beyond that, I can't recommend anything. I can post any other bow screenshots upon request.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)