cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Magikarp on July 28, 2011, 07:16:20 pm

Title: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on July 28, 2011, 07:16:20 pm
This cavalry class isn't popular, and for all the right reasons, I shall explain why it's inferior, mainly to onehander cav.

First of all, let's look at the two candidates for being the best twohanders usable on horseback.

1st item:
Morningstar
(click to show/hide)

Pretty impressive huh? 38 pierce, nice speed, bonus against shields, 82 length is neglectable.
Oh wait, we got the 30% speed and damage reduction on horseback!

So the real stats are:
(click to show/hide)

Wait, but it's usable as a onehander too, and they take the same penalty! A stab from a onehander can deal more damage? So no advantage when comparing it to onehander cav!  :?

2nd item:
Shortened Military Scythe
(click to show/hide)

Longest length of a 1hander/2hander on horseback, pretty good damage, good enough speed.

But now the real stats:
(click to show/hide)

Woow, 27 cut damage? Almost less than a scythe. Compare this to the 33 cut arabian cav sword, and it's obvious: yet another advantage for onehanders.

Not to mention the speed problem, onehanders retain full damage and speed, meaning they will be much more effective in battle when they need to act quickly.

My last point is obvious: 2hander cav doesn't have a shield to hold untill they decide to drop their guard and slash the enemy.

What I propose:

- Reduce the damage and speed cut to 10%, if it's hardcoded, than please implement it when you get wse implemented.

Nice and easy fix, wich will hopefully make the class more attractive.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Dezilagel on July 28, 2011, 07:20:24 pm
Just keep the speed redution, but drop the damage.

Will help making 2h cav have their niche as a longer range/more damage alternative compared to the 1h cav's more speed (slash multiple people in a row)/better defence.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on July 28, 2011, 07:22:40 pm
Just keep the speed redution, but drop the damage.

Will help making 2h cav have their niche as a longer range/more damage alternative compared to the 1h cav's more speed (slash multiple people in a row)/better defence.
Durr, only the sh. military scythe has more length, there is no bonus there. Speed rating needs to be adjusted cuz it's way too slow atm.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Dezilagel on July 28, 2011, 07:28:38 pm
...and more 2h should be usable from horseback imo.

But no srsly, keep the speed down. 2h and 1h cav should not be the same, and the adidional damage that would come from an unpenatilized 2h would do well enough to compensate.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: EponiCo on July 28, 2011, 07:30:39 pm
Seems like a sensible fix. But to be fair, 27 pierce (though I think 1h/2h weapon get less penalty than pure 2h, so it's maybe more like 30) is a nice alternative to 31 cut, you could also use 1h maces/picks with more/less/equal damage and faster but shorter, and lacks shield bonus.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on July 28, 2011, 07:32:26 pm
Seems like a sensible fix. But to be fair, 27 pierce (though I think 1h/2h weapon get less penalty than pure 2h, so it's maybe more like 30) is a nice alternative to 31 cut, you could also use 1h maces/picks with more/less/equal damage and faster but shorter, and lacks shield bonus.
Morningstar is usable as a onehander if you use a shield, making it a weapon usable by both classes and thus atm more effective by shielders.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Seawied on July 28, 2011, 08:20:36 pm
The problem with this is that a cav player should have more limited options than an infantry player. Cavalry have the highest possible potential at level 35, being both effective on horseback and when dehorsed. Imagine the top-tier infantry players with the speed and instant-strike benefits of a horseback.


The slot system does help limit this issue.


If anything needs to be changed, the 30% attack speed nerf needs to go. Reduce it to 10-15% and those 2h cav v 1h cav battles won't be about the 1her simply out-spamming the 2her. There would be some skill involved.

The hafted-polearms should also have their attack animation reverted back to their native form.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on July 28, 2011, 08:26:09 pm
The problem with this is that a cav player should have more limited options than an infantry player. Cavalry have the highest possible potential at level 35, being both effective on horseback and when dehorsed. Imagine the top-tier infantry players with the speed and instant-strike benefits of a horseback.


The slot system does help limit this issue.


If anything needs to be changed, the 30% attack speed nerf needs to go. Reduce it to 10-15% and those 2h cav v 1h cav battles won't be about the 1her simply out-spamming the 2her. There would be some skill involved.

The hafted-polearms should also have their attack animation reverted back to their native form.
You could say the same about ranged classes, at 35 they can be both good at melee and archery. This is the same with people sticking purely to 1 sort of combat, they will be much more deadly.

Anyways I agree with your points, as they resemble mine. I didn't make a plea for the long hafted blade because it doesn't fit within my posts context. However I agree the animation is ruining it's effectiveness, mainly by reducing damage and making it hard to aim.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Siiem on July 28, 2011, 08:29:38 pm
Make great swords useable on horseback!
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on July 28, 2011, 08:31:15 pm
Make great swords useable on horseback!
Don't go trolling my serious thread Siiem, I don't want you to go cav at all, get out!

The last thing 2handed cav needs, is having to use all the weapons people use on foot.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 28, 2011, 08:36:26 pm
Make great swords useable on horseback!
I wanna see shogunate George on a horse!
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 28, 2011, 08:44:38 pm
I wanna see shogunate George on a horse!

Georges rides Thomas the Tank engine
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Seawied on July 28, 2011, 08:47:31 pm
You could say the same about ranged classes, at 35 they can be both good at melee and archery. This is the same with people sticking purely to 1 sort of combat, they will be much more deadly.

It can't be said about most ranged.


Unlike cav, archers and throwers are incredibly hindered by armor. If you have 6 pd or 6 pt (which is pretty much required to do any sort of damage,) your armor options are limited to low tier, light armor.

Cav on the other hand, are limited by a slot system, point limitations, and finances... All of which could be over-come by simply being a higher level.


Anyway, we're off topic again.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Digglez on July 28, 2011, 09:28:36 pm
show me some videos of someone using a 2h weapon from horseback.

impact after hitting something at high speed would break your back.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: IG_Saint on July 28, 2011, 09:28:52 pm
Make great swords useable on horseback!

One of them (sort of) already is:
(click to show/hide)

On topic, I'd have to agree, reduce the penalty for 2hs on horseback, make them a bit more viable.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on July 28, 2011, 09:35:18 pm
show me some videos of someone using a 2h weapon from horseback.

impact after hitting something at high speed would break your back.
And cavalry dominates the battlefield if you go all realism on us.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Overdriven on July 28, 2011, 10:05:50 pm
show me some videos of someone using a 2h weapon from horseback.

impact after hitting something at high speed would break your back.

Wow...I thought most people have learned not to use realism as an argument in crpg. EVER.

Just to back it up:
we are not that much into reality in detail

Realism holds little weight in crpg, except in a larger perspective. In terms of weapon by weapon ect, it's more about balance and what's fun.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Beans on July 29, 2011, 12:32:16 am
As someone who plays 2h and horse I think giving the full benefits of 2h on a horse would just be too powerful.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on July 29, 2011, 01:23:49 pm
As someone who plays 2h and horse I think giving the full benefits of 2h on a horse would just be too powerful.
Not full, just so they can compete with onehanded cav and actually have benefits for risking their necks because they can't use shields.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Xol! on July 29, 2011, 02:12:12 pm
As a 2h cav player, I'd be happy with any kind of change to the 30% speed/damage nerf.  Unfortunately, it is hardcoded, so nothing in that regard would change until WSE is in full swing. 

A possible fix for this would be creating a new, very fast custom animation for 2h weapons on horseback, like the new hafted blade animations.  After the 30% speed reduction was applied, the animation would then be more of a 'regular' speed on par with 1h weapons.  I'm not actually sure if it's doable or would work, but it might be worth a shot.  Alternately, an animation change could give 2h cav the reach bonus that 2h weapons get because of their ground animations, and thus differentiate them from 1h cav.



While we're on this topic, check out this thread: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,10338.0.html

The great axe is the only 2h axe that's not usable on horseback, and it doesn't have particularly superior stats compared to other 2h axes.  It should be useable by 2h cav.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Siiem on July 30, 2011, 05:16:28 pm
The great axe is the only 2h axe that's not usable on horseback, and it doesn't have particularly superior stats compared to other 2h axes.  It should be useable by 2h cav.

It's just that the model... with that axe head beeing used on horesback with 1 arm is ludacris.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Moofed on July 31, 2011, 08:15:37 pm
The code that cmp was posting on irc a few months ago showed different numbers than just this flat 30% you guys are going off of.

AFAIK:
cav with a 2h does 85% damage.  If this were a polearm then it only does 85% on top of the existing 85%. If the weapon is a true two handed weapon (can't use a shield) then it is further reduced by 10%.  Same goes for using a shield, cav or not.

Speedwise, 2h/pole cav gets a -15 speed penalty, not 15%, a flat 15 points. If its a true two handed weapon then another 5 points are taken off.

Also, Y U NO LONGSWORD?
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on September 22, 2011, 03:04:36 pm
Now that this is implementable, please take a look at this!
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Bobthehero on September 22, 2011, 03:24:46 pm
I would like to point something, the slower the weapon, the greater the horse speed damage multiplier will be, at least in Native, it means that if you do run by's and slash at people you WILL do a fuckton of damage.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on September 23, 2011, 04:20:03 pm
I would like to point something, the slower the weapon, the greater the horse speed damage multiplier will be, at least in Native, it means that if you do run by's and slash at people you WILL do a fuckton of damage.
It also means that at slower speeds, you will do a lot less damage, timing your swing when going fast is way too hard, most of the time resulting in a whiff or a miss. Not to mention that archers have more ability to dodge your strikes, even though your should be their biggest threat.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Thomek on September 23, 2011, 08:05:34 pm
well.. cav get's speed bonus on their weaponry eons above what is possible as foot infantry.. This should be taken into account.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Strider on September 24, 2011, 03:10:33 am
I +1 this 100%. 2H on horseback should barely greatly buffed. Also more items should be usable on horseback.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Corwin on September 29, 2011, 11:28:11 am
I tried this once, and the general slowness of morningstar on horseback was something that I found to be helpful. Could be that's because I am a noob though. Regarding the damage I don't remember ever hitting anyone with morningstar from horseback that didn't die immediately.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on September 29, 2011, 02:11:52 pm
I tried this once, and the general slowness of morningstar on horseback was something that I found to be helpful. Could be that's because I am a noob though. Regarding the damage I don't remember ever hitting anyone with morningstar from horseback that didn't die immediately.
Well, you have to be going fast with a horse if you want to any damage at all with 2handers atm. Morningstar deals less damage on horseback than onehanders, which is just plain stupid. When you are getting in close and personal, you can't, unlike onehanders, keep hitting your foe, because you'll whiff. Not to mention it's much harder to hit someone quickly enough with the slow strikes when they try to dodge you.

No, 2hander cav really needs a buff, and it's about damn time.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 30, 2011, 01:34:20 am
Good idea. Balanced. Well thought out solid suggestion. Hopefully I can see more of your posts in the future.
I'll agree with you, because my friend Uumdi will go from 20-4 as a 2h on horseback to 30-3 if they could put in your changes.

Going to repeat what as said earlier, it is not a linear 30% decrease. It isn't very close to it at all.
Like ~20% less damage. The weapon speed on horseback doesn't matter.
And the speed bonus makes up for it more than plenty. (lol  up to 200% more dmg)
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Braeden on September 30, 2011, 06:30:36 am
Cav on the other hand, are limited by a slot system, point limitations, and finances... All of which could be over-come by simply being a higher level.

Yes, it is nice how at level 35 you get 6 weapon slots and a bonus 150 gold per minute.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Magikarp on September 30, 2011, 03:29:23 pm
Good idea. Balanced. Well thought out solid suggestion. Hopefully I can see more of your posts in the future.
I'll agree with you, because my friend Uumdi will go from 20-4 as a 2h on horseback to 30-3 if they could put in your changes.

Going to repeat what as said earlier, it is not a linear 30% decrease. It isn't very close to it at all.
Like ~20% less damage. The weapon speed on horseback doesn't matter.
And the speed bonus makes up for it more than plenty. (lol  up to 200% more dmg)
The slow ass speed is a big issue, as well as the damage. We are doing less damage than onehanders, haven't got a shield to protect us from apporaching an archer and our slow weapon speed even makes matters worse: not dealing damage AT all.
Title: Re: Twohander Cav needs a buff
Post by: Jarlek on October 03, 2011, 01:42:46 am
Yes, it is nice how at level 35 you get 6 weapon slots and a bonus 150 gold per minute.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Interesting.