cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tzar on July 23, 2011, 05:20:20 pm
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Buff throwing!!! that is all go
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+1 ultimate post
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Throwing is fun and effective as it could be again, buff what?
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OMGWTFBBQTHROWINGNEEEEDSNERF!
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Throwing weapons fly too slowly still. And throwing lance number should be increased per slot. My first char was a lance thrower. It just isn't worth it anymore.
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Throwing weapons fly too slowly still faster than arrows. And throwing lance number should be increased per slot. My first char was a lance thrower. It just isn't worth it anymore.
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So your say arrows are slower then war darts
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just nerf xbows a bit and it will be perfect
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How about we buff dedicated throwers by creating two types of stacks of each throwing weapon. The first type is the same 1 slot throwing stack that exists at the moment. The second type would be a 2 slot version of the throwing weapon stack that has twice the maximum ammo of its 1 slot counterpart plus 1 or 2. Someone carrying nothing but throwing lances could have 6 lances, or perhaps this could be done only for those throwing weapons that need some sort of buff.
Personally I think throwing is in a good place right now and doesnt need to change, but if a buff is required then I think a slightly higher ammo count for dedicated throwers would be what we need to fix that.
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TBH i dont see why the missle speed has to be so slow on throwing weapons when we need to throw out entire stack of ammo to kill 1 guy in mail armor the dmg is really awefull on throwing weapons atm and count in the slow missile speed to make throwing even more useless.
Im glad we got 1 slot throwing weapons again but whats the use of em when we need to throw and entire stack on one target :?:
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Some guy on a siege server hurling spears at me from about 10m range.
I was standing still and could dodge them all just by moving when I saw where it was going. He ran out of ammo and I killed him.
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yep throwing lance are a bit meh...
2 by slot would be too much... 1.5 could do.
Otherwise a slight damage buff would help.
I only carry 3 on my build right now. (4th slot is a shield)
with PT 7, I need 2-3 lance to kill a high str build in medium-heavy armor.
Yep so IF i hit with all my lance I'll kill 1 or 2 people... then I will try to punch someone to death or run until i find another weapon on the ground.
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i dont really understand the rational behind the accuracy ratings on the weapons. heavier objects are more accurate, whaaa?
as others said, missile speed needs to be increase, or decrease the pullback/throw times
damage really needs to be boosted on the medium & higher tier weapons.
longbows require less stat commitment and infinitely more deadly
one thing that would help alot was if the WPF penalty for medium armors wasnt so bad for throwers
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Long time thrower, first time poster.
I like the way the current patch handles throwing. It's supposed to be dangerous being a thrower, because you have very specific roles to play. You hang back to dehorse cavalry as they come around for a second pass on the infantry. You dance around the melee looking for opportunities to wound a tank, while not hitting your teammates in their shins, and getting them killed. When you run out of your precious shots, you get all the fun of the suicidal charge with the randon weapon you pick up from your freshly-impaled kill (or some hybrid weapon, w/e).
Throwing is for precision, not spamming. More ammo will kill this fragile art, and the forums will be filled with shielders and wounded teammates.
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i dont really understand the rational behind the accuracy ratings on the weapons. heavier objects are more accurate, whaaa?
F=ma-> all else equal, heavier objects are more accurate.
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Throwing weapons fly too slowly still. And throwing lance number should be increased per slot. My first char was a lance thrower. It just isn't worth it anymore.
Yup because 1-hitting luck-class should be in the game, and is totally fun for everybody. Oh wait..
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i dont really understand the rational behind the accuracy ratings on the weapons. heavier objects are more accurate, whaaa?
as others said, missile speed needs to be increase, or decrease the pullback/throw times
damage really needs to be boosted on the medium & higher tier weapons.
longbows require less stat commitment and infinitely more deadly
one thing that would help alot was if the WPF penalty for medium armors wasnt so bad for throwers
I agree with you for the most part. In the case of accuracy, the lower tier weapons will end up more accurate because they require less PT to use. The higher PT requirement for the good weapons lowers your WPF and kills your accuracy so no real problem there.
Otherwise I agree with you 100%. The doubled stacks don't matter much because it now takes usually twice as many to kill anyone, not to mention the reduced projectile speed was a needless change so most of those weapons end up in the ground anyway. The accuracy fix and heirloom buffs were great though. I just think we were honestly better off before the increased stacks though. The trade off isn't worth it. I'd rather have less and do reasonable damage then more and have my damage cut severely.
One of the side effects of 1 slot is that it costs more to use the better stuff now and it's heavier to load up now as well (right?) I go broke trying to use my heirloomed spears let alone if I get sick of not being able to kill plate and take a lance.
Also yeah, I think we're restricted a little too much in the way of armor. I can understand stiff armors effecting throwing, but we should be able to at least wear low end medium armor before our WPF starts to tank.
All things combined, the lowered projectile speed means they can walk directly to you and all it takes to dodge is to wiggle around. The lower damage means you can't kill someone in armor before they get to you to kill you. (I have been told if we're using cut weapons, that we should just pretend that they are "bouncing off" :lol:) You can't outrun them because you're weighed down. And you can't defeat them in melee because you don't have enough melee wpf, and are restricted to the lightest armors. As soon as you get hit once you're dead.
They're never going to touch throwing again now that it's "fixed" but I think a lot of the changes are conflicting with each other. I've been told that the devs don't want people to have high levels of PT or PD. I'm fine with that as long as the changes work with that philosophy. Unfortunately the changes have made balanced agi/str builds near useless and everyone is going back to their roided powerthrowers. I just want the devs to make up their minds so I don't have to respec EVERY single patch. :(
Over all I think the patch has become a free rein for all the long time players with plate armor and money to burn. Talking to a lot of new players, they're giving up in frustration because they can't make enough money to have a chance against vets, who are near untouchable in loomed plate. The change for new players not paying upkeep for a while is a nice change, but not really a proper solution. With rare exception, eventually it still comes down to a battle of money instead of skill. A man in plate armor with a crossbow on his back, outrunning you and one hitting you with a bec de corban, while shrugging off being a pin cushion of arrows and throwing weapons... That's pretty much everything wrong with this mod rolled into one very viable build.
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A man in plate armor with a crossbow on his back, outrunning you and one hitting you with a bec de corban, while shrugging off being a pin cushion of arrows and throwing weapons... That's pretty much everything wrong with this mod rolled into one very viable build.
Well said. I'm lucky if I get 3 throws off before I get gutted when someone is 20ft away and i'm back peddling. My accuracy is prob lower than 15% if i'm not using extremely light armor
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Make each 2 slots. Increase Damage significantly, Increase Accuracy significantly.
Changes which go against spam and reward precision.
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Make each 2 slots. Increase Damage significantly, Increase Accuracy significantly.
Changes which go against spam and reward precision.
Apart from the accuracy increase, which we got and was needed, that would basically be rolling back the last patch. Two slot throwing weapons was causing a nasty pick up bug that they couldn't fix however. I think everything is more or less fine right now, except for damage and projectile speed and weight restrictions. I have no idea why speed needed to be lowered. It may have been a global ranged decision, but throwing was already so god damn slow. Now it's impossible to hit anyone anywhere but the back. If someone sees you throwing at them you're dead.
The problem with damage is a global problem. I don't believe the recent changes involving cut and the like were good. That is a whole different argument however. In relation to throwing though, it made anything but the most expensive and heavy weapons completely useless against anyone armored.
The problem with weight is that anything heavier then I think 9lbs of armor starts reducing your wpf. This pretty much kills hybrids completely. This and the athletics killing weight of carrying throwing spears, jarids or lances which are the only things that don't "bounce off" plate wearers.
In the end, the patch introduced quite a few changes supporting hybrids as the only viable choice, but then added just as many changes that removed that viability and seemed to support the opposite. It's not even a middle ground situation, it seems more like the devs couldn't make up their minds or something. Two potential throwing archetypes are possible. While it would be difficult to have balance and have both styles viable, it would at least be easy to support one. Instead neither really work. Its frustrating.
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I think you are right with your oppinion about armor.
Throwers are no archers and should be able to wear medium armor without penalties.
They however should have a very high increase if they go further in armor.
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I too feel like the "buff throwing" patch was an honest fail. More ammo, ok, but less speed, less damage.
I've used heavy throwing axe for a long time now so i pretty much know its pattern, yet i can't hit anyone aware of my presence cauz' of that damn speed. Even if the guy is easily predictable, if he's not 5 meters away he has the time to drink a coffee and smoke a cig before even considering dodging.
I masterworked those axe to become a huge "raw" damage dealer, shootting tanks and horses as supporting melee and archers, yet with the new armour value, i really don't feel the damage on the medium armor anymore (i won't talk about heavy one's... Cheap_shot cartoons covered it all). And since after the first hit the guy knows you're here, you just have to pray that he burns himself drinking his coffee while covering the distance to get you.
In the end, the patch introduced quite a few changes supporting hybrids as the only viable choice, but then added just as many changes that removed that viability and seemed to support the opposite. It's not even a middle ground situation, it seems more like the devs couldn't make up their minds or something. Two potential throwing archetypes are possible. While it would be difficult to have balance and have both styles viable, it would at least be easy to support one. Instead neither really work. Its frustrating.
+1. As an hybrid (lets say 120-130 wpf, 7 pt), you have to choose : get a medium armor and hope that people will try to stop your stuff with their head cauz you're damage will be really, really lowered. Or get a light armor and... get lucky : our position is around the melee, at medium and close range, we need to be able to take at least one hit without rolling and crying in foetal position...
Overall, its not really a complaint because i know pretty much nothing will be done, yet i miss pre patch : four slots used, 8 axes, every lauch had it cost, but i knew every hit was a world of pain.
Anyway, luv to all throwers, even the shielder's one. Peace.
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Thanks bro. Words of truth. For the problem with damage, see this thread. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,13736.0.html
Some good solid points are made about cut weapons at the moment and I think his most supported suggestion of increasing cut armour penetration slightly would completely solve the damage problems on this end. It would solve a lot of other problems too really.
For the rest of it, put projectile speed back up, and raise the bar for how much armour can be worn before effecting throwing wpf. It doesn't make much sense currently wither you use a realism argument or a game balance argument.
Do those things and throwing will be 100% balanced. Just three things, one of them being an important issue of it's own that should be addressed anyway.
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Give me mah projectile SPEED!!!
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Throwing's cool now. Good to damage someone from afar but not good as a stand-alone class. Like it should be. It's a "sidearm" now.
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Throwing's cool now. Good to damage someone from afar but not good as a stand-alone class. Like it should be. It's a "sidearm" now.
But it's not. You cant use it with armor due to WPF reduction, so who would use it as a sidearm? Must be like two people, because everyone just uses a crossbow. You can wear all the armor you want with those, they have 2 to 3 times the ammo, and do the same amount of damage or more now with less then a fraction of the requirements heaped onto throwing. Not to mention that the only good throwing weapons require a lot of powerthrow and just don't fit into a hybrid build. If you wan't a sidearm, crossbows seem immune to the slew of "realism" nerfs that the devs seem to only need to apply to bows and throwing.
I'm having a hard time believing that you've even picked up a throwing weapon lately.
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Amen cheapshot. They should lower the requirement per PT in half at least. This will still prevent people in plate using throwing lances and whatnot. People in non-plate armor should be able to throw heavy axes and javelins without any penalty really
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Amen cheapshot. They should lower the requirement per PT in half at least. This will still prevent people in plate using throwing lances and whatnot. People in non-plate armor should be able to throw heavy axes and javelins without any penalty really
Yeah. And it's actually funny, because you would think that crossbows would be the MOST difficult thing to operate while wearing plate. Throwing you just pick up something and huck it. Bows, you draw an arrow and pull it back with a bowstring. Could be done wearing plate if you didn't wear gloves or something. Crossbows though, it's a lot more of a process, which even involves bending over. Bending over in plate? Interesting.
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agreed with op.
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Great thread, very productive. I have nothing really to contribute but my 1+. I agree with the sentiments of OP. The latest buff for throwing was in name only; I can have more rocks but they fly at a greatly slower speed.
As for the throwing lance I agree it's a bit useless for a dedicated thrower.
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Yeah. And it's actually funny, because you would think that crossbows would be the MOST difficult thing to operate while wearing plate.
How so? If you can make a fist, which you clearly can in order to hold a weapon, you can operate a crossbow. Either manually or with a winch and foot stirrup. Buy one IRL, try it. Xbows are piss easy as guns are. More fun to hunt with though.