cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Xol! on July 12, 2011, 05:08:28 pm

Title: [Stats] Remove 'not useable on horseback' flag from Great Axe
Post by: Xol! on July 12, 2011, 05:08:28 pm
Every other 2h axe is usable on horseback.  The relevant stats for the great axe:
speed rating: 94
weapon length: 96
swing damage: 43 cut
Can't use on horseback

Now, the persian battle axe (more damage, similar length, slower):
speed rating: 90
weapon length: 95
swing damage: 45 cut

The two handed war axe(less damage, similar length, faster):
speed rating: 95
weapon length: 92
swing damage: 40 cut

Bardiche (same damage, longer reach, slower):
speed rating: 91
weapon length: 102
swing damage: 43 cut

Notice that other weapons in the same class have the same or greater damage and approximately the same length.  The only major difference is the speed, and to be frank, speed doesn't count for shit with 2h weapons on horseback.  The huge swing speed nerf that comes along with using a 2h weapon on horseback negates any real differences in the speed stat.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 12, 2011, 08:30:56 pm
Good catch, the other axes perform marvelously, why is this one axe excluded?
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Argos on July 13, 2011, 12:46:09 am
You make a good point, can't see why they should be different.
Could someone also tell me why the 2h axes are unbalanced, but the longer axes in polearms are not? (though they are unusable on horseback)
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 13, 2011, 01:22:22 am
You make a good point, can't see why they should be different.
Could someone also tell me why the 2h axes are unbalanced, but the longer axes in polearms are not? (though they are unusable on horseback)

They way they are held. Go grab a shovel or a broom and hold with both your hands at the end like a 2hander. Rather clumsy and unbalanced. Hard to recover after a swing. However, you use the full length of the weapon.

Then go hold them half way-up the way a pole arm is held. Very easy to swing at the cost of quite a bit of weapon length. Easy to recover from, not unbalanced.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: DrKronic on July 13, 2011, 01:32:03 am
not true, on a horse a longer weapon(2h) is actually able to held in one hand, because really you'll be using the momentum from the horse to aid you in swinging the weapon (or basically holding the weapon out at the enemy, even an axe with a bit of a swing as you ride by and yes people die)

This is how longer horseman's flail's would work but on the ground almost most all axes,maces/flails/mallets tended to be wielded in 2 hands

its just the fact that a "two handed" weapon would still be swung very much like a pendulum(and not in a "1h" style) on a horse similar to the strong strikes of a wielder using 2hands but on a horse you'd only have to use 1

In addition the bar mace should be horse usable again, if you can swing a morningstar u can swing a bar mace(same with persian axe since its horse usable)

I mean I don't know who has the dev's ear, but seriously 2h is getting shadow nerfs all over the place, in truth real spears are slow weapons, with the awlpike being a horrible weapon IRL so not sure why polearms get so much love (when 2h swords were designed to break up formations lol)
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Argos on July 13, 2011, 01:39:09 am
They way they are held. Go grab a shovel or a broom and hold with both your hands at the end like a 2hander. Rather clumsy and unbalanced. Hard to recover after a swing. However, you use the full length of the weapon.

Then go hold them half way-up the way a pole arm is held. Very easy to swing at the cost of quite a bit of weapon length. Easy to recover from, not unbalanced.

Of course, it all makes sense. :D
In that case, is the weapon reach lower on a polearm compared to a 2hander with equal length, due to holding further up the weapon?
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Torben on July 13, 2011, 01:40:43 am
hmm,  where we are at it i find it highly unrealistic that i cant use a german poleaxe on my horse.  or an english bill ^^
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on July 13, 2011, 01:41:57 am
Of course, it all makes sense. :D
In that case, is the weapon reach lower on a polearm compared to a 2hander with equal length, due to holding further up the weapon?

Yeah, the swing animations give you a shorter effective range for polearms as compared to 2 handed weapons in general.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Torben on July 13, 2011, 01:43:05 am
Of course, it all makes sense. :D
In that case, is the weapon reach lower on a polearm compared to a 2hander with equal length, due to holding further up the weapon?

yes

even the swings have + and - on the reach
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Argos on July 13, 2011, 01:43:14 am
Yeah, the swing animations give you a shorter effective range for polearms as compared to 2 handed weapons in general.

Thought so, that's fair in order to keep them more balanced. :)
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: DrKronic on July 13, 2011, 01:49:01 am
Thought so, that's fair in order to keep them more balanced. :)

thing is, this is false because we're talking about length 96 weapons, if you can swing a 102 length nordic champion on a horse with a shield, u can swing a morningstar with a shield from a horse, but you can't swing a less weight "great axe" from a horse(less weight than any of the previous mentioned items), you wouldn't be double fisting it on a horse, you wouldn't have to, of course I doubt anyone else has ever rode a horse
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 13, 2011, 02:38:41 am
DrKronic stop mixing arguments that don't go together at all. Everybody agreed that axe should be usable so far. Nobody has disagreed. You can stop arguing now.
Yes, poles lose length with animation , 2h gain length.

Yes, 2h use 1h animation and lose <~30% speed&damage on a horse. Pole arms also suffer this penalty.

What are you arguing?
I saw you arguing that the awlpike was a horrible weapon IRL... lol what? How so? Because it couldn't have it's haft chopped by a 2h when it stabs and was designed to kill plate armor users? You also called spears slow weapons? 2h getting shadow nerfs; like what?
Dude, relax.

oh, and btw, great axe weighs more than a nordic champion sword. And I think we can all agree that barmace and those similar short weapons should be horse usable now that they don't have crushthrough anymore. They had horse use taken away because crushthrough on a horse is ridiculously OP.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on July 13, 2011, 06:11:44 pm
Glad to see lots of support for this.  I would also be interested in hearing from a dev whether or not they plan on bringing back the bar mace, iron mace, etc. to horseback.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on July 14, 2011, 08:48:38 pm
Bump for great (axe) justice.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: POOPHAMMER on July 15, 2011, 01:38:36 am
Can I use a flamberge from horseback too? It has one less length than a long hafted blade, and I can swing that from a horse
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on July 15, 2011, 01:40:59 am
Can I use a flamberge from horseback too? It has one less length than a long hafted blade, and I can swing that from a horse

Thanks for trolling.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 15, 2011, 01:45:48 am
Can I use a flamberge from horseback too? It has one less length than a long hafted blade, and I can swing that from a horse

But the damage is much much higher :/
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on July 17, 2011, 02:44:21 am
bump for disenfranchised great axes everywhere.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on July 23, 2011, 04:19:38 am
Your randomly-timed reminder that great axes aren't so great, since they can't be used on horseback.  Restore them to greatness!
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Tzar on July 23, 2011, 03:59:52 pm
OP is correct
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on July 27, 2011, 11:42:14 pm
Another bump for great justice

get it

get it

I hate myself.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on August 25, 2011, 06:17:33 pm
Since a new item balance patch is coming soon, I feel it may be relevant to bump this.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Jarlek on August 26, 2011, 08:44:02 pm
I agree to this. I really would also like some more swinging poleweapons on horse other than Hafted/Long Hafted Blade.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: [ptx] on August 26, 2011, 09:17:01 pm
Give back horseback great maul, kthxbye.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Jarlek on August 26, 2011, 09:38:10 pm
Give back horseback great maul, kthxbye.

(click to show/hide)
Yeah, but they still use their corresponding wpf. It's just the animation that is 1h.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: [ptx] on August 26, 2011, 09:49:02 pm
Yeah, and it looks retarded :|
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Siiem on August 27, 2011, 09:29:18 pm
I'd like to see someone swinging an axe of that size with one hand... besides, enough cavalry already, do not give them more choice.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Inporylem on August 27, 2011, 11:41:14 pm
i demand great maul on horseback
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on August 28, 2011, 12:39:11 am
no, it will look pigly disgusting when you swing it
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Camaris on August 28, 2011, 12:44:01 am
+1 makes no sense it cant be used on horse.
Can you use barmace and long iron mace from horse? If not those should be allowed too.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Casimir on August 28, 2011, 02:35:10 am
bar mace usable on horse again i say.

Anyway why the hate on 2h cav from all these haters, its hardly op and is barely used

There's no reason for great axe not to be used on horse back tbh, although imo morningstar is your best choice even if its now overused.


Also, flamberge is already usable from horseback, just no attacks are available.

Try it yourself.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Gorath on August 28, 2011, 10:04:12 pm
in truth real spears are slow weapons

So very epicly wrong.  Very very very wrong.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: DrKronic on September 03, 2011, 05:33:46 pm
So very epicly wrong.  Very very very wrong.

yea it is, even read about the real awlpike

 Awlpike(IRL description)-
Also known just as a "pike" and a Morris pike (corruption of Moorish), this is an infantry spear raning from 16 to 22 feet in length.  Awl Heads are usually leaf- or lozenge shaped.  The pole is made of a strong wood, such as ash.  Many pike heads are made with two tongues of steel, nailed down the sides of the shaft in order to prevent the head from getting hacked off.   The grip is often bound with cloth and the butt capped in steel to prevent the shaft from splitting.  The awl pike has the DUBIOUS distinction of being the SLOWEST polearm available.  add this to its MEDIOCRE damage against man-sized opponents, and one is left with a weapon of QUESTIONABLE VALUE, except when used EN MASSE on the battlefied.


INGAME= ridonkulous awesome dueling 1v1 weapon of death, plus hell you have 2 pike users, oh shit no one can stop u now lol (like IRL, o wait you'd get raped IRL with only 2 slow ass unwieldy pikes that do poor damage)

IRL= slow ass poor damage weapon, only useful in large formations(we're talking 4 rows deep, the real advantage of "long spear" type weapons, total suck in 1v1 due to slowness, bad damage)
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Sammael on September 07, 2011, 12:25:35 am
yea it is, even read about the real awlpike

 Awlpike(IRL description)-
Also known just as a "pike" and a Morris pike (corruption of Moorish), this is an infantry spear raning from 16 to 22 feet in length.  Awl Heads are usually leaf- or lozenge shaped.  The pole is made of a strong wood, such as ash.  Many pike heads are made with two tongues of steel, nailed down the sides of the shaft in order to prevent the head from getting hacked off.   The grip is often bound with cloth and the butt capped in steel to prevent the shaft from splitting.  The awl pike has the DUBIOUS distinction of being the SLOWEST polearm available.  add this to its MEDIOCRE damage against man-sized opponents, and one is left with a weapon of QUESTIONABLE VALUE, except when used EN MASSE on the battlefied.


INGAME= ridonkulous awesome dueling 1v1 weapon of death, plus hell you have 2 pike users, oh shit no one can stop u now lol (like IRL, o wait you'd get raped IRL with only 2 slow ass unwieldy pikes that do poor damage)

IRL= slow ass poor damage weapon, only useful in large formations(we're talking 4 rows deep, the real advantage of "long spear" type weapons, total suck in 1v1 due to slowness, bad damage)

You should probably just go make your own thread about this instead of continuously hijacking this one...


On topic, I agree with the OP, and add the long iron mace and bar mace to horseback while you're at it! I'd love to use a long iron mace from horseback, if only for the looks.
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: IG_Saint on September 07, 2011, 01:54:17 am
yea it is, even read about the real awlpike

 Awlpike(IRL description)-
Also known just as a "pike" and a Morris pike (corruption of Moorish), this is an infantry spear raning from 16 to 22 feet in length.  Awl Heads are usually leaf- or lozenge shaped.  The pole is made of a strong wood, such as ash.  Many pike heads are made with two tongues of steel, nailed down the sides of the shaft in order to prevent the head from getting hacked off.   The grip is often bound with cloth and the butt capped in steel to prevent the shaft from splitting.  The awl pike has the DUBIOUS distinction of being the SLOWEST polearm available.  add this to its MEDIOCRE damage against man-sized opponents, and one is left with a weapon of QUESTIONABLE VALUE, except when used EN MASSE on the battlefied.


INGAME= ridonkulous awesome dueling 1v1 weapon of death, plus hell you have 2 pike users, oh shit no one can stop u now lol (like IRL, o wait you'd get raped IRL with only 2 slow ass unwieldy pikes that do poor damage)

IRL= slow ass poor damage weapon, only useful in large formations(we're talking 4 rows deep, the real advantage of "long spear" type weapons, total suck in 1v1 due to slowness, bad damage)

The in game awlpike has nothing to do with that description of yours. 16 to 22 feet is 4.9 to 6.7 meters. The in game pike is 3 meters (assuming weapon length is in cm) and is the slowest polearm in game. It also sucks in duels. So do you want to change that pike to a 500-700 length awlpike to make it more realistic? Even if that happened the devs would just rename the current awlpike to short pike or something..
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Siiem on September 07, 2011, 02:49:56 am
The awlpike looks quite real to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy6y9oXkjCo&feature=player_detailpage#t=18s this says it's only 5 feet...

I especially like the part where he says "If you bet on the french... you lost" :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: MrShine on September 07, 2011, 05:19:52 am
I agree love is needed for axes on horseback
Title: Re: Make the great axe usable on horseback
Post by: Xol! on September 10, 2011, 06:16:38 pm
I agree love is needed for axes on horseback

Good man.