Leave or stay in the EU?

[Overdriven]

No EU mass immigration quotas means that the UK economy can only get better, and there will be better opportunities for immigrants who actually want to work imo. Immigrants and foreigners who want to work in the UK will no longer have to compete with a non-stop influx of workers who will undercut their pay and salaries so they can actually make a decent wage.  As people said before I don't think leaving the EU has anything to do with a halt on foreigners and immigrants working in the UK, it just gives the UK more control over the situation which can only lead to a higher quality of living for all in the long run.

They almost certainly will. We would be suicidal not to comply with the rules for the free market, which includes free movement. Add to that there's already an economic incentive for an influx of low paid workers. Politicians are never going to stop immigration. Not whilst business rely on it and economic growth is the goal. The UK could already control immigration from outside the EU if it wished. Guess why they haven't? Because there's no incentive too.

[Oberyn]

The EU seems more worried about the future of north africans and "asians" than it does about it's own peoples, the ones whose identities they've been trying to obliterate because it would makes things easier for capitalists and ivory tower elites, as exemplified so simply in Kafein's retardedly arrogant smug preaching about how weak and powerless we would be if mighty Brussels did not take us irrelevant chicks under it's wings. Constant contemptuous bullshit from naive retards who live in a universe where any identity beyond global is obsolete. How could you possibly take any of these disengenuous cunts seriously when they make noises about "Europe" and "europeans" and what they believe is best for them?   

[Osiris]

What life experience do you have Overdriven that means your vote should be more important than your parents? not picking on you just generalising. Why is what you want at your stage of life more important than what people 10-20 years older want?

I didnt vote leave due to immigration, that was a moot point for me as we will still take immigrants probably on a similar level with a points system but perhaps the system will be fairer on a worldwide bases meaning we dont discriminate against people outside of the EU in-favour of someone born in eastern europe for example. We always have and always will have immigration but the ability to tweak and control it to what we desire and need is important

I am however dead set against a political union and a European superstate

And, in a statement, German Chancellor Angela said: "There is no point beating about the bush: today is a watershed for Europe, it is a watershed for the European unification process."

That kind of thing is why i voted out it has nothing to do with me being a racist bigot or somehow too stupid to understand that a united Europe is best for us all.




But yes how stupid and moronic are we brits for holding different views to thomek



edit*  If you want to blame anyone blame corbyn, Guy who the "youth" seem to gravitate too literally didnt want to remain and did as little as he could to convince labour supporters to vote to stay.

[Overdriven]

What life experience do you have Overdriven that means your vote should be more important than your parents? not picking on you just generalising. Why is what you want at your stage of life more important than what people 10-20 years older want?

I didnt vote leave due to immigration, that was a moot point for me as we will still take immigrants probably on a similar level with a points system but perhaps the system will be fairer on a worldwide bases meaning we dont discriminate against people outside of the EU in-favour of someone born in eastern europe for example. We always have and always will have immigration but the ability to tweak and control it to what we desire and need is important

I am however dead set against a political union and a European superstate

And, in a statement, German Chancellor Angela said: "There is no point beating about the bush: today is a watershed for Europe, it is a watershed for the European unification process."

That kind of thing is why i voted out it has nothing to do with me being a racist bigot or somehow too stupid to understand that a united Europe is best for us all.




But yes how stupid and moronic are we brits for holding different views to thomek

edit*  If you want to blame anyone blame corbyn, Guy who the "youth" seem to gravitate too literally didnt want to remain and did as little as he could to convince labour supporters to vote to stay.

My parents voted remain. They went against the trend on that one (St Albans constituency, one of the few to go remain outside of London).

It isn't particularly those 10-20 years older I'm fussed about. More those at ages 60+. I've even seen people in that bracket claiming they are voting to secure the future for the young, despite ignoring what the young want. And they will likely only have another 15 years left to live. It's selfish to ignore the wants of your children because 'we know better'.

Thing is we already vote for MEPs. Who then vote in Europe on our behalf. How is that any different to how our Parliament works? Or is it just the fact we don't get a say on the President? Plus we get a veto on decisions in Europe. So if it was really against our national interest then our elected politicians would have that covered. So the European superstate argument is also pretty much a moot point.

Edit to your edit:

I think Labour always had an uphill battle on that one anyway. They lost vast amounts of voters to UKIP so it was always going to be a struggle.

[Oberyn]

Yeah all the old people are the cause of the housing shortage, meanwhile, let's take hundreds of thousands more immigrants, those are absolutely not linked to the housing shortage in any manner. Mass immigration is an economic boon, in every respect, you'd have to be racist to think otherwise.

[Oberyn]

If the young wanted to remain so badly maybe they should have voted. Again, nowhere is the total number of votes per age bracket being taken into account, in this frenzied rush to pretend every single person under the age of 25 was pro-remain, the implication usually that they are more "educated" and "enlightened" than their older crusty, racist, white counterparts. Apparently 10% of the voting age population was enough to swing the vote entirely, for some strange, statistically mysterious reason.

[Overdriven]

Yeah all the old people are the cause of the housing shortage, meanwhile, let's take hundreds of thousands more immigrants, those are absolutely not linked to the housing shortage in any manner. Mass immigration is an economic boon, in every respect, you'd have to be racist to think otherwise.

Considering lots of immigrants live in large groups. Not so much. They are also often the ones renting as well. But you're the kind of person who would pick up the Daily Mail, see a front page story about some migrants living in a mansion in London and decide that it must be the case because it says it right there!

Second homes and rental properties have been shown to been the main contributor to the housing crisis in this country already in many studies and reports by independent bodies and the Government. So trying to argue it is pretty pointless. But then you're also one of those who would ignore 'experts' because you just know so darn well yourself what the situation is.

At what point have I mentioned racism? You seem to be the only one consistently bringing it up as an argument. I perfectly understand the knee jerk reaction against immigration. But for countries with an ageing population and falling birth rate it makes complete economic sense in every way. Precisely why Germany is so pro-immigration because there population has a natural decline due to birthrate.

If the young wanted to remain so badly maybe they should have voted. Again, nowhere is the total number of votes per age bracket being taken into account, in this frenzied rush to pretend every single person under the age of 25 was pro-remain, the implication usually that they are more "educated" and "enlightened" than their older crusty, racist, white counterparts. Apparently 10% of the voting age population was enough to swing the vote entirely, for some strange, statistically mysterious reason.

Typically they are more educated. When my Dad went to University for instance, less than 10% of the population went to University. Now it's closer to 50%.

[Grytviken]

They almost certainly will. We would be suicidal not to comply with the rules for the free market, which includes free movement. Add to that there's already an economic incentive for an influx of low paid workers. Politicians are never going to stop immigration. Not whilst business rely on it and economic growth is the goal. The UK could already control immigration from outside the EU if it wished. Guess why they haven't? Because there's no incentive too.

The problem is remuneration. Since EU law states that the wage free movement workers are paid is not important they are allowed to undercut the wages of workers who want a stable life for themselves. If a company wants to import cheap labor they aren't required to pay them a livable wage and can drop the difference on the taxpayer as the member state will have to be pay the difference in the form of financial assistance.

[Oberyn]

Yes slowly replacing your population with foreigners makes perfect sense, only an idiot would think otherwise. There's literally no difference at all, it's just people, homo sapiens, every single one interchangeable with the other, just numbers on a spreadsheet to make the numbers meet. Our elected officials aren't there to protect any sort of national identity or sovereingty, or protect their people or their culture, they're there to serve the economic machine to the best of their abilities. Nation is such an obsolete concept in any case, amiright? 

[Osiris]

From HMRC for April-June 16

UK exports to Germany £2.7 billion
UK imports from Germany £5.2 billion


The latest healthcheck from the Office for National Statistics on goods coming in and going out of the UK reveal that the gap between exports and imports in the first three months of 2016 widened by £0.7bn to £23.9bn.


That is nearly 24 billion more that we buy from the EU than we sell to them


They have a problem and i don't envy the EU leaders. Do they tank their own exports in a tariff war as a signal to other countries that they wont stand for people leaving or do they try to keep tariffs to a minimum and try to stabilise the regions.
Honestly i think without the UK they can move on with their closer union without us causing trouble so maybe it is in everyones best interests that we voted to leave 


Im  not sure on this point so if Germans could enlighten me to how strong a lobby the German car makers are? because we buy a hell of a lot of German vehicles and they would stand to lose out the most

[Overdriven]

Yes slowly replacing your population with foreigners makes perfect sense, only an idiot would think otherwise. After all there's literally no difference at all, it's just people, homo sapiens, every single one interchangeable with the other, just numbers on a spreadsheet to make the numbers meet. Our elected officials aren't there to protect any sort of national identity or sovereingty, or protect it's people or it's culture, they're there to server the economic machine to the best of their abilities. Nation is such an obsolete concept in any case, amiright?

Off the top of my head I can't remember which country your from. But I'm sure as heck glad you're not in charge of it wherever it is.

Get with the times. The world is smaller due to global communication, transport and other technological advances. You know you can communicate with someone across the world? It's quite remarkable. And you'll also find they aren't also all that different. The world is getting more and more interconnected, and that means populations will become more and more mixed. You're trying to hark back to a time long gone when you could just bury your head in the sand and pretend there wasn't much of a wider world out there than your nearest town and city and that everyone you knew was just like you.

I get the world is a scary place Oberyn and there are some scary people in it. But trying to fight global connections is utterly pointless and counter productive to our advance as a species.

[Leshma]

Im  not sure on this point so if Germans could enlighten me to how strong a lobby the German car makers are? because we buy a hell of a lot of German vehicles and they would stand to lose out the most

Whole world buys German and Japanese vehicles because they are better than the rest.

[Oberyn]

Why don't you go campaign in Japan on such a premise? Try to convince them they must accept millions of more fertile foreigners, it is the only way they will survive. If you don't see how idiotically backwards your reasoning is I can't help you. But you're clearly a globalist bundle of sticks, so any attempt at logic will simply bounce off the blinders of naive optimism. This fantastic social "experiment" that will "advance the species" is happening ONLY IN THE WEST, nowhere else on the planet is fucking retarded enough to fall for it. "More and more mixed", WHERE? WHERE EXACTLY, YOU DISINGENUOUS CUNT? I feel like I'm in a communist madhouse or something. THE REVOLUTION WILL BE UNIVERSAL, COMRADE, IT IS INEVITABLE AND WILL BE GLORIOUS ADVANCEMENT FOR HUMAN SPECIES, MEANWHILE YOU MUST DO YOUR PART TO BRING IT ABOUT, WE ARE THE SEEDS OF FUTURE UTOPIA.

[Overdriven]

Why don't you go campaign in Japan on such a premise? Try to convince them they must accept millions of more fertile foreigners, it is the only way they will survive. If you don't see how idiotically backwards your reasoning is I can't help you. But you're clearly a globalist bundle of sticks, so any attempt at logic will simply bounce off the blinders of naive optimism. This fantastic social "experiment" that will "advance the species" is happening ONLY IN THE WEST, nowhere else on the planet is fucking retarded enough to fall for it. "More and more mixed", WHERE? WHERE EXACTLY, YOU DISINGENUOUS CUNT? I feel like I'm in a communist madhouse or something. THE REVOLUTION WILL BE UNIVERSAL, COMRADE, IT IS INEVITABLE AND WILL BE GLORIOUS ADVANCEMENT FOR HUMAN SPECIES.

That is where you wrong. In the East there's an influx of Western workers. Particularly in centres of IT, communications and science. And no, not all of them are 'skilled' workers. Heck the amount of average Brits going to Dubai alone is pretty astounding. But those countries also know it's good for economic growth. Diversification of skills in the work place is pretty much a cornerstone of economic growth these day. But damn the leaders of the world must be wrong hey Oberyn? Because a small minded nationalistic ideology must be the correct one!

[Oberyn]

Considering the overwhelming majority of the Leaders of the World, a pack of villainous scum more lowly than the worst criminal, absolutely do not buy into your retarded delusions, yes. I'm sorry to tell you the West is not the planet. And lol at comparing some statistically negligible expats to the mass population replacement, cheered on wholeheartedly by people like you, in the West. How many of those even get the nationality of the country they stay in, you lying sack of shit?