Author Topic: Leave or stay in the EU?  (Read 78800 times)

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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #210 on: April 26, 2016, 04:43:43 pm »
0
Your analogy explains why its bad itself though. If you justify the re-awakening of various european nationalism by the nationalism agression of other groups, there could be no end to it. You must certainly see that humanism > nationalism?

Nationalism is a natural reaction from external agression, and a good ideological obstacle to incompatible values; but it is also going to encourage xenophoby and could break regions apart.
Gotta watch out and not overdo it; but IMO there is no basis for a WW3 atm, there is just no justifications to re-assert age old claims upon our western neighbours. The only potential hot zones are Ukraine and Balkans. And of course middle east but our modern western armies can crush them any time of the day.

Anyway, using WW3 fear as an argument against nationalism is counter-productive and asinine, even more so from the point of view of the people welcoming nationalism tendencies.

Don't forget the Caucasus. (Armenia/Azerbijan).
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #211 on: April 26, 2016, 06:48:05 pm »
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hysterical extremes (whatever it means)?
Hysterical as in emotion-based and not rational. Again, what I see happening in Poland certainly has its differences compared to Germany.



What's a good amount of national identity for everyone to boast though? Right before a world war? There was certainly a balance back then, in the sense of whole nations walking a tightrope over a chasm.

Is it time for round three already?
National identity gives cohesion in the nation state, a political entity which have been a huge success, historically. It shouldn't always be viewed as an ideological -ism, ie. 'nationalism', really what it is is a natural policy of sovereign states, first and foremost trying to do what is best for the people within said states, what they are law-bound to do by terms of their national constitutions. Conserving what is worth conserving about ideas and culture. Requiring some degree of homogeneity. Even humble pride in what is worth being proud of is a good thing that increases contentment and social capital, studies show, making the 'proud not to be proud' echoing in some sectors of the German electorate even more self-defeating.

But of course nothing is black and white, especially not in politics, as we have to watch out for the extreme left we also have to watch out for the extreme right, but just calling national conservative parties xenophobes (as does Der Spiegel repeatedly, what I otherwise considered a serious newspaper), or idiots or n.a.zies as do some here, polarizes the issues even further and spills into the hands of extremists.

Let us also not act surprised that the reemergence of national politics in Europe is a reaction not a cause.

Regarding this war scenario you present, WWIII in Europe is very hard to imagine, made almost impossible since 1951 with the European Coal and Steel Community. And even sentiment, in fact Europeans have never been closer. We should be more worried about the ME and India-Pakistan.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #212 on: April 26, 2016, 07:06:59 pm »
+1
You must certainly see that humanism > nationalism?

Must I? If I saw any other cultures and nationalities forging headlong into the same idealism, I might be slightly more comforted. And I most certainly did think like this, before I actually went out into the world and had firsthand experience with completely different cultures. As it is the only people who hold these views in any significant proportions are westerners, and it's inevitably the ones who are also arrogant enough to think their mores and values are not only universal but self-evident and inevitable for all humanity. What I see is that humanist principles continue to benefit mostly people who absolutely do not stand for them at the expense of those that do. And it's justified as some sort of sick evangelism, as a "moral duty", as a burden we must collectively bear, a step leading to a better world. I just see it as pure weakness, and so does the entire rest of the planet. 
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Offline Molly

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #213 on: April 26, 2016, 07:10:03 pm »
-1
Yeah, it's the lack of nationalism that made the industrial and information age happen. Just imagine if South Korea and Japan were just like us ideologically, their HDI would be off the charts! Because of course their current HDI has nothing to do with functional economies and political systems, it's all about how tolerant you are of "diversity". A+ logic as usual.
Just ignore that most of that rest of the world is kinda a big ass shithole.
Correlation or causation?
Readin comprehension /facepalm
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #214 on: April 26, 2016, 07:14:50 pm »
0
hello
As in the context of parliamentary representation in said countries.

Offline Butan

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #215 on: April 26, 2016, 07:59:49 pm »
+1
Must I? If I saw any other cultures and nationalities forging headlong into the same idealism, I might be slightly more comforted. And I most certainly did think like this, before I actually went out into the world and had firsthand experience with completely different cultures. As it is the only people who hold these views in any significant proportions are westerners, and it's inevitably the ones who are also arrogant enough to think their mores and values are not only universal but self-evident and inevitable for all humanity. What I see is that humanist principles continue to benefit mostly people who absolutely do not stand for them at the expense of those that do. And it's justified as some sort of sick evangelism, as a "moral duty", as a burden we must collectively bear, a step leading to a better world. I just see it as pure weakness, and so does the entire rest of the planet.

You should anyway!
You seem to think that humanism is always weak, but it can be agressive.
When I say humanism > nationalism, I do not mean that we must all love each other and pray for a better tomorrow; but working toward a future where the various nationalism are removed in favor of one culture, human.
I believe thats where we are headed mechanically, the "rest of the planet" is just a pocket of resistance that will be pervaded just like the rest. How and when is the real question! There's also the question who will survive? But thats really obvious to me, I do not fear any Caliphates taking over my beloved western countries like some stupid nationalists with an agenda.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #216 on: April 26, 2016, 10:00:44 pm »
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Yes? How exactly are you working towards erasing Algerian nationality? Morrocan nationality? In fact, any sort of tribal collective identity that is not western? Seems to me you have absolutely no idea how this magical merger resulting into a monoculture covering the entire planet is supposed to work, "mechanically".
You have your idealistically approved endgoal, and it is proper and righteous and hits all the right ideological notes for you, so everything in between is just so much vague claptrap, not really important at all. Do you honestly think the other cultures on the planet are as suicidal as your own? That they are merely going to give up their identity because some weepy white bundle of sticks hippies on the other side of the planet had a moronic daydream? That there is no pushback against the retarded social constructionism people like you think is so effective? "The rest of the world is a small pocket of resistance", wow, calling that arrogant was generous. That is some serious levels of delusion.
You've deceived yourself into thinking all the material advantages of first world countries are inextricably linked to this (relatively) brand new ideology. They are absolutely not. No one outside of the west thinks they are. Which is why no one outside of the west is addopting this ideology. If anything, by all metrics the "fruits" of this ideology are all negative. But that is something people seem to accept, which is why they couch it in moralistic terms of "reponsability" and "duty".
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:06:33 pm by Oberyn »
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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #217 on: April 26, 2016, 10:07:38 pm »
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Yes yes, of course, only western nationalism is dangerous. Just ignore the fact that the entire rest of the planet has had nationalism and variety of other tribalistic identities forever too, and will continue to have them. We must not be nationalistic, otherwise it's WW3 incoming. As soon as a western nation shows the slightest inkling towards collective identity we might as well start up the gas chambers again.

Wow, those strawmen you chose to fight against sure took a beating.

Non-western nations are quite capable of the same madness.

The past has always been a great time to be alive, huh? Everyone who doesn't want to go back there is ignoring it?

Not sure what to even make of your tribalism thing.

I'll own up mentioning WW3, though I hardly said that a drop of nationalism would automatically cause Germany to attack France once again. That would be silly.

There's been two world wars, you brought the nazís up.



Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #218 on: April 26, 2016, 10:27:15 pm »
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Regarding this war scenario you present, WWIII in Europe is very hard to imagine, made almost impossible since 1951 with the European Coal and Steel Community. And even sentiment, in fact Europeans have never been closer. We should be more worried about the ME and India-Pakistan.

Nope, I didn't present that.

But you know what was said right before the Great War? "The economical interconnectedness of our nations has made war impossible." And again before World War 2, "war would be impossibly costly". And it happened anyhow.

We ignore history at our own peril.

National identity gives cohesion in the nation state, a political entity which have been a huge success, historically. It shouldn't always be viewed as an ideological -ism, ie. 'nationalism', really what it is is a natural policy of sovereign states, first and foremost trying to do what is best for the people within said states, what they are law-bound to do by terms of their national constitutions. Conserving what is worth conserving about ideas and culture. Requiring some degree of homogeneity. Even humble pride in what is worth being proud of is a good thing that increases contentment and social capital, studies show, making the 'proud not to be proud' echoing in some sectors of the German electorate even more self-defeating.

But of course nothing is black and white, especially not in politics, as we have to watch out for the extreme left we also have to watch out for the extreme right, but just calling national conservative parties xenophobes (as does Der Spiegel repeatedly, what I otherwise considered a serious newspaper), or idiots or n.a.zies as do some here, polarizes the issues even further and spills into the hands of extremists.

Nation states have always been a success? Have they? They haven't been both rising and dropping like flies through history? They sure beat the state of nature and tribal warfare of before, but that much is obvious I think.

Social capital and "contentment" are both nice things to have, though how absolutely necessary they make this homogeneity, I don't know. People simply can't be happy if they aren't surrounded by people just like them? Surely that's not your argument?

All nations don't share a single constitution, I don't know where you live and how law-bound your government is to preserve the current snapshot of your culture.

Beating yourselves in the head and letting things like honor killings happen, is not good policy though.

And name calling doesn't amount to great discussion or debate, I agree.

Let us also not act surprised that the reemergence of national politics in Europe is a reaction not a cause.

Not a cause in itself? Voting populists in power looks like a shortsighted reaction to me.

Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #219 on: April 26, 2016, 11:44:27 pm »
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You should anyway!
You seem to think that humanism is always weak, but it can be agressive.
When I say humanism > nationalism, I do not mean that we must all love each other and pray for a better tomorrow; but working toward a future where the various nationalism are removed in favor of one culture, human.
I believe thats where we are headed mechanically, the "rest of the planet" is just a pocket of resistance that will be pervaded just like the rest. How and when is the real question! There's also the question who will survive? But thats really obvious to me, I do not fear any Caliphates taking over my beloved western countries like some stupid nationalists with an agenda.

While I gree that humanism/humanitarianism have in some cases brought out the best in people, it like pretty much everything else has also been hijacked by some to be used as a political weapon to force change on people whether they want it or not and has led to inhumane actions,  inhumane environments and encouraged inhumane politics. We can see examples of this from the spread in use of GMO crops, fund raising events like liveaid, through to economic and military interventionism to name a few.

It seems to me there are forces out there who would like to unite the world under a single unified ideology, and I'd argue those working towards this at the moment are the political centre, the established political systems in the West, who are actively facilitating this possible eventuality. Some of the tools they use to achieve this aim include promoting the idea of a "multicultural society" where peoples differences, cultures and nationalities are celebrated... But at the same time, the same actors are slowly stiffling the   multinational and multicultural identity of the world and one of the ways they do this is by placing an economic stranglehold over countless foreign governments and politicians with the aim to subvert. So what we get is, progressive social politics but a regressive, imperialist/expansionist geopolitics, which are arguably a contradiction of policies. Social progression is something we encounter in our day to day lives, it's something quite tangible to us in the West, but geopolics? That's a different story, it's done out of sight and out of mind, unless reported on and by and large that information is usually controlled.

I do think if we as a race or if the planet is around to witness it, we will eventually unify as a global culture, a global community with shared values.. But at our current level of development I think we've got a long way to go to achieve this. Instead of allowing for this conclusion to come about naturally, I think there are neferious forces whom get our politicians to dance at the ends of their puppet strings. The puppetmasters are those like billionaire George Soros, who for example uses his wealth to promote political ideology through the various NGOs, corporations or governments he's in bed with, funds or created himself. His aims are to encourage immigation, a multicultural society and it seems others like him with similar goals are trying to quicken the pace of a single world government, single world society and human identity. They want to pool the worlds resources, including us and all our energies and efforts into selfishly realising their own dreams.

 I think the artificial manipulation of bringing about a closer, more unified global society, a more unified human race or even one world government is dangerous and will lead to disastrous consequences for the entire planet, maybe even a third world war. You see, for people like George, national identity is the nail that stands above the rest that needs to be hammered down and only once the last nail is hammered down can a single world government be introduced and single world soceity be encouraged.  On the local level multiculturalism works to their advantage, on the global level it needs to be snuffed out. Some nails don't go down without a fight and it's this resistance that could produce enough friction that triggers the spark that ignites the next global war.

To bring this post back into the threads context. With Britain remaining in the EU, it too will remain a nail that has already been hammed down. Federations of states, and federations of federations are likely to be the first steps on the path to a unified world government, and which is why for some reasons above and others mentioned elsewhere I'm voting to leave.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 12:35:47 am by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #220 on: April 27, 2016, 01:12:53 am »
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Yes yes, of course, only western nationalism is dangerous. Just ignore the fact that the entire rest of the planet has had nationalism and variety of other tribalistic identities forever too, and will continue to have them. We must not be nationalistic, otherwise it's WW3 incoming. As soon as a western nation shows the slightest inkling towards collective identity we might as well start up the gas chambers again.

Actually this reasoning made some kind of sense back in the 19th and early 20th century when the power of most western countries taken individually was eclipsing everyone else combined. The western aversion for nationalism is a direct result of the world wars.

National identity gives cohesion in the nation state, a political entity which have been a huge success, historically.

lol

first and foremost trying to do what is best for the people within said states

kek

what they are law-bound to do by terms of their national constitutions

An invention of the european enlightenment. It's no wonder that most democratic constitutions boil down to essentially the same basic rights and impose limits on the power of the nation-state.


The reality is, having hundreds of competing states on a single earth with basically the same level of will to cooperate for the good of everyone as the average DayZ player is a horribly inefficient, and since the invention of nuclear weapons, downright suicidal way to organize our lives. Trying to rationalize government might be idealistic, but so is hoping that we have any chance to deal with global warming or the other dozen global problems with the same power structure as people who believed in sea monsters.

Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #221 on: April 27, 2016, 05:46:03 pm »
0
Nope, I didn't present that.
I thought writing 'Is it time for round three already?' as presenting a scenario where that could happen.

Quote
But you know what was said right before the Great War? "The economical interconnectedness of our nations has made war impossible." And again before World War 2, "war would be impossibly costly". And it happened anyhow.

We ignore history at our own peril.
Yes, I've always found the pre-war optimism a lesson to take to mind. My point was that it's far less likely today than then, for a number of reasons.

Quote
Social capital and "contentment" are both nice things to have, though how absolutely necessary they make this homogeneity, I don't know. People simply can't be happy if they aren't surrounded by people just like them? Surely that's not your argument?
Of course not, I wrote 'some degree'. There's been a good deal of science done in these areas in psychology and sociology, that too much diversity (especially of the non-benign type such as with a greater degree of cultural clashes or fundamentalist religion in a secular society) brings a decline in social capital. Look at social development at large among western nations, the generally happiest, safest, least corrupt places are the smaller, homogenous nation states. That doesn't mean there isn't any new ideas from the outside or no foreigners, there is no reason to think any of us here deal in absolutist terms.

Quote
All nations don't share a single constitution, I don't know where you live and how law-bound your government is to preserve the current snapshot of your culture.
I've never said they did. What I'm referring to is a social contract which is included in some form in most western constitutions. To surrender some freedoms in exchange for protection of some rights. I'm also not talking about a snapshot of my culture, I'm talking about governments addressing well-documented problems for example posed by the largest wave of non-western immigration in Europe's history.

Quote
Not a cause in itself? Voting populists in power looks like a shortsighted reaction to me.
Populism isn't all demagoguery, often it is also the will of the people being heard and can lead to positive changes. I don't see how it is shortsighted if it actually leads to laws being passed dealing with some of the issues clearly at people's minds.



« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 08:39:30 pm by Angantyr »

Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #222 on: April 27, 2016, 06:07:09 pm »
0
lol

kek

An invention of the european enlightenment. It's no wonder that most democratic constitutions boil down to essentially the same basic rights and impose limits on the power of the nation-state.


The reality is, having hundreds of competing states on a single earth with basically the same level of will to cooperate for the good of everyone as the average DayZ player is a horribly inefficient, and since the invention of nuclear weapons, downright suicidal way to organize our lives. Trying to rationalize government might be idealistic, but so is hoping that we have any chance to deal with global warming or the other dozen global problems with the same power structure as people who believed in sea monsters.
You seem to think I'm saying 'government' every time I say 'nation state', and that seems to clash with your political views. I'm talking about the nation state as a political entity, what it is on paper. No one is imagining this jungle law world without any cooperation, broad alliances and friendship between states with everyone only out for their own, please let us keep the conversation rational.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:14:09 am by Angantyr »

Offline Paul

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #223 on: April 27, 2016, 07:12:17 pm »
+2
Please refrain from multiposting. This thread is supposed to be diverse and double posts or worse create an unhealthy atmosphere of homogeneity.

Offline Angantyr

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Re: Leave or stay in the EU?
« Reply #224 on: April 27, 2016, 07:16:53 pm »
+2
Ordnung muss sein, Paul. I already tried to combine it all into one post but it just got too messy.