Author Topic: Suicide  (Read 4898 times)

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Offline Vibe

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2014, 12:40:50 pm »
0
Have anyone mentioned the single most critical issue with a suicide yet?.. Suicide is a one-way ticket to hell:

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Offline Andswaru

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2014, 07:37:56 pm »
+2
Alot of young people commit suicide because they simply feel they have noone to talk too about their problems. Its easy to judge them and say how they could of done it differently, but try and remember been a teenage and having that feeling that noone wanted to understand your problems, then add in what i can only presume is chronic depression and its not suprising that teenagers just "disappear" without saying goodbye.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2014, 07:56:47 pm »
+2
Alot of young people commit suicide because they simply feel they have noone to talk too about their problems. Its easy to judge them and say how they could of done it differently, but try and remember been a teenage and having that feeling that noone wanted to understand your problems, then add in what i can only presume is chronic depression and its not suprising that teenagers just "disappear" without saying goodbye.
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Offline Andswaru

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2014, 08:01:23 pm »
+1
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Offline AntiBlitz

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2014, 08:31:24 pm »
+1
More discussion, can a child make the choice?  What if they felt compelled to do it, or were bullied into it, are the bullies responsible?

https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/12-year-olds-suicide-sparks-social-media-outrage-104784359417.html

not the first nor the last, but the most recent to hit the news.

Offline Bulzur

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2014, 08:39:44 pm »
+3
Going to add my own thoughts to this topic.

As many, i'm all for "helping" the medically ill to pass away, if they are willing and confirmed this in a determined fixed period (a month ?). Who are we, to force people to live on in pretty harsh conditions, when they've already "lived" for longer than us ? Establishing this age limit is of course an whole different problem, but i believe, as already said, than 80 years old is a decent age. The good thing about medically assisted suicide, is that it's being controlled/followed. And that is usually not the case for the standard suicide.

[Cynical tone]
Standard suicide, as in people killing themselves by themselves, without any secondary help, are very selfish people. For first, they don't even care about the police, who will have to conduct a search and investigate, to confirm if it's really a suicide or if it's a murder. Oh, he left a note saying it's a suicide and all. Better check the handwriting,... And what about the medical department, having to verify the corpse, if it has any other wound. Is it a suicide because of working conditions, because of emotional conflict,.. ? Someone blowed his head off in his appartment ? I pity the worker who'll have to wash off all this blood. If only the dead could have done it in the bathroom, damn selfish bastard.
The worst people are of course the ones deciding to end their life in public. "Let's jump off the roof, i don't care if i hit someone or someone's car below, since i'll be dead already." "Let's jump in front of that train, i don't care if all the passengers will be postponed for half an hour, and if the driver will get an emotional trauma."
And, obviously, it's better for the society if the suicidees don't "miss" themselves and are actually helped in that matter. In special houses or whatever. The cost of a suicidee is huge. And it's the people living on who have to pay it.
If you have the will to choose thir super ugly wardrobe and wear it in public, no matter what people told you, then why shouldn't you have the will to die, no matter what people told you. They didn't even WANT life, they were just given it.
[End of cynical tone]


Of course, we're not even discussing the "reason" for the suicide, just the plain fact, and what usually follows. If only the government allowed people to suicide, create a special service, to confirm if this person has thought it over, and if his life conditions are indeed pretty terrible, if he doesn't have the courage to live on,... Then things will be a lot less messier. It won't be that much of a selfish suicide. But as it stands, it is a crime to suicide, no matter your age, no matter your circumstances, so why care about the rest of the world, when this world doesn't even care about you ? Is it consider selfish not caring about a stranger, that doesn't care about you ? What about a group of strangers ? What about the rest of the world ?

If someone is so isolated, that he is in that case, then no matter his age, i would assist him and support him in his suicide attempt. If he thought it over. No matter the age. He doesn't have the courage to live on ? What use is it for that person knowing that it will be better nine months from now, if he can't stand thoses nine months and don't want to stand thoses nine months ? Because people usually go through some sort of rebellious stage when they want to suicide (to show off to the rest of the world, to laugh happily in hell when watching the people who shouted on him earlier, now crying blaming themselves,...) and shrug it off/survive through it, they think everybody can ? We're all different emotionnally, some are weaker then others, no matter the age. Limiting assisted suicide to only the elderly is forcing the people to live whatever shitty life they have, even when they don't want to. And even worse, it can make them feel terrible : For example, a man wants to suicide. He's 30 years old. He can't. He has a life insurance, but has a terrible life. And just wants to end it. He thinks he'll write a testament, giving al money to some kind of charity helping ill children. But he can't die. And everytime, he'll see numbers about dead ill children, and other numbers near it : "Help us. For every 30 euros, you'll make a child happy". But he can't. He can't be happy, and he can't even make other people happy. Even worse, since he's so poor, and isn't allowed to die, he's taken in a hospital. Watched, taken care off, all of this using the money of people who would maybe need it more than him. He feels terrible for not dying. No matter his age."


[Personal thought : ]
I'm all in favor of assisted suicide, provided a real helper following that person, and confirming it's not just a random thought. It's actually VERY selfish of other people to force strangers to stay alive. Just because themselves decided to, when confronted with a maybe, somewhat, relatively similar situation. Again, we're all different, we never asked for this life, we have rights. Why not the right to die, without having any negative impact on anybody ? Who are we to judge that his situation isn't that terrible, he should be able to live through it, and hopefully it will get better ? The parents may have a bit of that right, since they gave birth to that person. But at [insert legal age of your country], this person is independant. And his life should be is. So after [legal age], this person should be able to get the right to suicide. As for AntiBlitz affair of the 12years old age suicide, this is imo a special case. Bullies being left to roam around, emotional assistance not available in school for that age, friends not noticing about it or not telling about it, and parents not noticing about it. It is a "forced" suicide, imo. Not the standard suicide. And should never happen in our society.




I don't know if that's still on topic, but for me, everything that is neither a murder or an accident is a suicide, this below could serve to either get a 0/20 (or F) for offtopic, or be considered a good "opening" in your conclusion :
Another peculiar case, that i didn't see mentioned so far (or that i've missed out, sorry if that's the case), is the people in coma for very long period. There's no knowing when a person will, if she ever will, come out of coma. And this person clearly can't express if she wants to live on, or not. An affair was brought to light in France, when an husband had been in coma for a very long time (5 years maybe, don't remember). And the wife, the friends had all lost hope and wanted to ask for the right to kill him off, let him go to heaven (or hell), rather than spending hundreds and hundreds to keeping him alive. Will the doctor be labeled as a murderer for killing him off, or is it a form of suicide ? It all depends on what you consider "living". For me, it means expressing yourself in one way or another, in our world. And that's clearly one of the things any people in coma can't do. They can't interact in our world. In that, they may already be dead. But deads don't rise again, but people in coma can. Pretty touchy subject. Who has the right to decides of one's own life, when that person can't ? In our affair, the parents were against killing off their son, so even if the lover/friends/everybody else wanted to end it, it actually went to the justice.

It's not even easy deciding of a legal clause for assisted suicide, so talking about people in coma is a lot harder. But i feel it is somewhat linked, as in as long as people won't be able to gain a legal clause for assisted suicide, then people in coma won't be allowed to die either.


Anyway, a nice topic of conversation, and how i would love to be sitting a a circular room, hearing directly everyone's thought, and debatting about it. A way more interesting subject that the death sentence, imo.
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Offline Taser

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2014, 08:44:44 pm »
0
You dont? That surprises me. They feel like very different circumstances, one where a 'correct' procedure is followed to make sure they're of stable mental faculty and that their family is notified, the other a spur-of-the-moment thing which may stem from a manageable mental illness but they'll never know.

They may feel like different circumstances but I don't see a real logical reason to see them differently. Not trying to be an ass. I really don't. There is definitely an emotional difference when its an 90 year with a terminal cancer that slips away in a morphine coma vs a 16 year old that hangs themselves in their room. I won't contest that in the least.

Quote
I am not saying that person X's feelings matter more than person Y. Only that i would expect as a human being, person Y would care about person X and not deliberately harm them, it's not my family, it's person Y's, if he has no natural desire to protect their feelings then i truly cannot understand him. Ofc it's more likely to be affecting persons A-Z rather than just person X, person Y was never so important in his whole life as the day he chose to end it. But i appreciate you cant stop them doing it, it's just a shame that they may think they're going to end it all and they're continuing to be useless even after death. If you're going to end it, doesnt it make sense to have a full appreciation of what you're doing first? If they're still willing to end it after they've put the thought in and truly understand who they're hurting and how, then like it said i'd be happy for them to go die.

I would wager that a large portion of people that commit suicide know their family/friends may be affected but that they feel they'll 1) be better off, 2) won't be affected that much, or 3) won't care at all. So I think they do take it into account since suicide is usually done not as a spur of the moment thing but is usually on someone's mind for a while before they do it. There are those that do it in the heat of the moment but this is the miniority (wife cheats on them, death of a loved one, etc).

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What other aspect of suicide is there? Everyone has their reasons and circumstances, if we're discussing the act of suicide itself then where i'm at in this analogy is that the person is already there ready and willing to do it. The actual act of killing yourself makes up a tiny % of the whole process, the sucider's involvement is remarkably small and brief and they never have to witness what happens next. For the purposes of the debate i was working from the assumption that the suicider would suicide and end their own life due to some reasoning on their part, what more is there to discuss other than the fallout?

Well I was discussing the idea of suicide itself and whether people should be allowed to do it. I still find it odd to say should be allowed but a lot of people say that with a straight face so *shrug*. The fallout afterwards is not related to the question "Should one be allowed to commit suicide?" in my opinion. Sure it can be discussed and I have no issues with talking about that but imo its not relevant to that question.

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The point maybe i'm contesting the most is ''It's my life i can do what i want with it''. You asked in your earlier post if my argument about family/loved ones meant that people without anyone who'd miss them should be free to suicide. In my mind, that's a yes, if they literally have noone in the world who would miss them or care about them, then their life is undoubtedly 'their own' and their actions wouldnt harm anyone. But i dont think i've ever met anyone who's life was truly 100% 'their own'.

I dont believe my life is exclusively my own, sure from a physical point of view i can *do* whatever i want, but since when was 'I can physically do it and it's my body i can do what i want' any excuse for murder, or theft? When was the last time that your physical ability or desire to do something counted as justification in and of itself for anything? We arent born in a vacuum, we dont go into the wilderness to fend for ourselves the moment we're born, look around and you'll see people who have a personal stake in your life, people like your parents who have given up so much of theirs for your sake (if you want to look at this clinically, see that as an 'investment' on their part, they're 'investing' in you). If someone had dependents, like children or were a sole carer for someone, would you view their suicide differently? I certainly would, the moment you take physical responsibility for another human being your life is no longer *just* yours, i cannot understand how someone would have children and still maintain the illusion that their life was exclusively 'theirs'.

So if someone that has no family/friends/anyone that cares about them, they are free to commit suicide? So how can you say that one should not be free to commit suicide if they do have people that care about them then say that you're not weighing the emotions of the people who care about the suicidal person more than the feelings of the suicidal person and their ability to control their life?

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Equally, though you may not notice it until the very instance of tragic suicide or death, some people are emotionally dependent, and grief can do all sorts of things to people. You wouldnt beat up your own mum/mom would you? You'd be doing her less harm if you did smack her about and give her a bloody lip than if you committed suicide. I'm not saying anything like 'monitor person X, his mum/mom's feelings are more important than his', but how can you be human if as person X you have no desire to avoid harm to the people you love. I'm trying to find a more satisfying explanation than; 'They dont put that much thought into it and dont see any reason why their loved ones should care', 'They're selfish and dont care what their death does to others', or 'They lack basic human traits like empathy, that's how they're able to do it'.

Like I said earlier, a lot of people do think about this and believe their loved ones are better off or won't care that much or at all when they do commit suicide. I won't say that everyone that commits suicide  does but that some do honestly believe that. And if they lacked empathy.. I highly doubt they'd commit suicide, except in very unique scenarios.

Quote
Imagine you're going to kill yourself, you have everything you need in front of you and you're ready, before/as you go about your business do you think about these people? Do you justify your actions somehow? Do you try to avoid thinking about them? Do you just not care how they feel, are they somehow at fault for your current position and you're looking to punish them? Or do you lack basic human empathy, do you genuinely just sit there and think 'well it doesnt really effect their lives so there's no logical reason why they should care'? Or is this world unreal, nothing's real, the people you know are just constructs who'll 'stop' the moment you die. Which is closest to your thoughts at that point? Or would you think something different?

Well.. I imagined that quite a bit but I'm not unique in that fashion. Honestly.. half the time.. it didn't enter my mind.. the other half.. I wondered how they'd react when they found my body in different ways (rope, gun, etc.. although suicides should be fun, maybe throw in a clown somewhere). So sure I thought about them.

I'll just say that I'm a nihilist that works under the idea of emotivism. I don't see a way out of nihilism and it depressed me for a while so I was pretty close to the trigger a few times. Family didn't really seem to matter nor did anything. It still doesn't but I basically realized that if everything is meaningless then trying to quell ennui via suicide is meaningless as well. Plus as Shakespeare said "Death makes cowards of us all". Add in that I did think about family and etc and I figured fuck it, guess I'll live.

But if I were about to commit suicide... it'd be basically "everything is meaningless and so is my family". Any reaction they'd have is meaningless and so are they. So if I want to commit suicide, might as well. Its just as meaningful as any other action. (although that includes inaction)
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Offline Xant

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2014, 10:42:16 pm »
+5
Standard suicide, as in people killing themselves by themselves, without any secondary help, are very selfish people. For first, they don't even care about the police, who will have to conduct a search and investigate, to confirm if it's really a suicide or if it's a murder. Oh, he left a note saying it's a suicide and all. Better check the handwriting,... And what about the medical department, having to verify the corpse, if it has any other wound. Is it a suicide because of working conditions, because of emotional conflict,.. ? Someone blowed his head off in his appartment ? I pity the worker who'll have to wash off all this blood. If only the dead could have done it in the bathroom, damn selfish bastard.
Wow.

Yes, better not kill yourself because, God forbid, some people will have to do their jobs if you do. That should indeed be your primary concern when you're having suicidal thoughts.
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Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2014, 11:03:01 pm »
+1
Wow.

Yes, better not kill yourself because, God forbid, some people will have to do their jobs if you do. That should indeed be your primary concern when you're having suicidal thoughts.

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Offline Armpit_Sweat

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2014, 01:04:13 am »
+5
Some major textwall construction in this thread, please show mercy :)

(click to show/hide)
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  Spam at The Temple of Spam

Offline Leshma

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2014, 01:32:30 am »
0
Have anyone mentioned the single most critical issue with a suicide yet?.. Suicide is a one-way ticket to hell:

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While i am chilling on the left side, wearing golden armor, silk cape, and enjoying myself - suicidal fools are getting knocked over in a pit, tortured by all sorts of ugly-ass vampires, and getting raped by horny green dragons.

What a cool pikcha, orthodox-slavic depiction of heaven and hell I presume? Shame that in few years, when Russia perish as a country, nation and everything else and those lesser Russians like Serbs with them as well, no one will give a fuck about that slavic picture. It will be like Mayan beliefs...

Germans are onto our asses again bruh, and this way around there's no way to avoid the destiny.

Offline Tibe

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2014, 08:19:10 am »
0
Some major textwall construction in this thread, please show mercy :)

(click to show/hide)
Ive always woundered, but it might be just my Hollywood influenced mind, that how hard would it have been to just grapple on to the wall when theres no sentries around and get a couple of 100 determined guys up there? Cause it was around 5-8m tall, which is well tall, but not that much and considering that from some parts the terrain was rougher it might have even been less.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2014, 12:17:47 pm »
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I think the point of the wall was not to be an impenetrable fortification, but rather to obstruct the logistics of horse based armies and create an advanced warning against an invasion of horse nomads, giving the Chinese time to respond to any large incursion attempts, as well as making any small-scale raids not worth the effort for horse nomads.

Offline Vibe

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2014, 12:36:48 pm »
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Standard suicide, as in people killing themselves by themselves, without any secondary help, are very selfish people. For first, they don't even care about the police, who will have to conduct a search and investigate, to confirm if it's really a suicide or if it's a murder. Oh, he left a note saying it's a suicide and all. Better check the handwriting,... And what about the medical department, having to verify the corpse, if it has any other wound

Poor police and medical personnel for doing what they're paid to do?

Offline Vibe

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2014, 02:17:06 pm »
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Police? Paid? What country are you from? xD

Are you telling me that police in other countries are not being payed for doing their work?