That would explain why I had to shoot a guy 12 timeslast night to drop him. But what is a cRPG patch with out the archer nerf.(click to show/hide)
It has the "NEW VERSION" tag; it isn't in the game yet. You were probably shooting some 10IF lordly-armor jerk and it probably wasn't twelve shots.
Actually it was a 10IF guy TKoV(can't remember the guy's name, sorry) in lordly Blue coat of plates. He was quite noble, because he stayed in place and let me shoot him so a teammate could escape. This also afforded me the opportunity to count the number of shots it took to drop him, 12.
So if the new version is not active yet... How much worse will it get?
What does it have to do with skill when everyone is just pewpewing with a fast bow, that is really accurate?
And when suddenly many people do alot more headshots cause they concentrate and use the fast pewpew accuracy bow, people will come to this forum and cry about archers being too fast, too accurate and doing too much dmg :rolleyes:
So if the new version is not active yet... How much worse will it get?
yay, now my 30 str alt only dies from headshots, most arrows already bounce off, needs at least 5 PD to hurt me :)
And i think that present situation is good. But if it will be changed some high PD archers just change their bows to pew-pew wich with high PD makes them preety accurate, take tatar arrows and shoot off ur head.
Way, WAY worse :mrgreen:
This is a devs response to this topic that had serious and insightful input. :rolleyes: ... pathetic
This is a devs response to this topic that had serious and insightful input. :rolleyes: ... pathetic
from those who are responsible for what happens here :rolleyes:
Damn i asked 3 simple questions about the upcoming change. not one of the questions has been addressed by a dev yet.
Please ignore the whine and look at my OP
if anything just answer
2. will this change affect horses also?
I love that people rage at a CHANGELOG regarding a patch that hasn't even been released yet and wonder why they are not taken seriously.
So you publish changelogs, that might be changed again or won't even come in a patch?
Or what other use does it have then?
1. is it implemented yet?No, it's not active right now, chadz already answered that above.
2. will this change also affect the way horses take damage or do they remain the same?Edit: What Paul said.
3. What kind of % change are we looking at here?Edit: What Paul said.
This was an idea based on Native gameplay. When can we expect ranged weapons to have Native speeds again?
Ladder removal is supposed to be a nerf to ranged (though I think NA will not be nearly as affected as EU). Can we deal with one major change at a time? Experiments are only supposed to have one variable at a time!
As far as I understood the code:
All ranged hits
human: 125% head damage, 67% rest
horse: 125% head damage, 75% rest
All damage multiplication done after armor soak/reduce calc.
I'd prefer something more sophisticated though. Like arms, legs, shoulder 50%; thorax, belly, hip 80%; head 125%. Someone put some decent percentages for each bone in this picture please.(click to show/hide)
Well, can someone confirm
Well, can someone confirm
Before patch it is:
All ranged hits
human: 210% head damage, 100% body, 80% hands
After patch
All ranged hits
human: 125% head damage, 67% rest
dont forget most of the "balance" team are STILL butthurt from the days when we saved up for a month, got ourselves a warbow and some bodkins, then owned each and every server we joined
That sounded like a balance issue to me...
I'd prefer something more sophisticated though. Like arms, legs, shoulder 50%; thorax, belly, hip 80%; head 125%.
As far as I understood the code:visitors can't see pics , please register or login
All ranged hits
human: 125% head damage, 67% rest
horse: 125% head damage, 75% rest
All damage multiplication done after armor soak/reduce calc.
I'd prefer something more sophisticated though. Like arms, legs, shoulder 50%; thorax, belly, hip 80%; head 125%. Someone put some decent percentages for each bone in this picture please.(click to show/hide)
Well, can someone confirmAfter patch
Before patch it is:
All ranged hits
human: 210% head damage, 100% body, 80% hands
After patch
All ranged hits
human: 125% head damage, 67% rest
Not sure if serious, but please dont make this a testicle hunt.(click to show/hide)
Not sure if serious, but please dont make this a testicle hunt.
The flaw is that archery IS WIN. ITS JUST BETTER. How can it not be better: ITS SHOOTING vs HITTING PPL WITH A STICK. The brain is a humans best tool, and my brain tells me: Shooting a guy 100 yards away is always gonna be better than fighting him, when at any moment he can 1hit me with his MW GLA or somesuch, because of a packet loss, server lag, teammate stopping me from blocking by spamming into my back, etc. And polestagger: WHY is it still in the mod: its a throwback to the failspearmen of native: why should a GLA or Hafted blade stun me for longer than a Cookies? I bet the devastation to my body would be just as bad both ways...
Current archer damage is good as it is.
My solution is to cut the spam effect from them -> Maximum 1 quiver for archers. They have to conserve their ammo. And this way they will always have slots for melee weapons so they can't use that excuse when running away.
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I'm a butthurt longbowmy old friend.And they nerfed my weapon.Are saying that they might just nerf my weapon.
Q_Q
Even now, when they are relatively balanced vs other classes, they are still ridiculous if we were to compare vs reality, where any bow except maybe longbow and compound bow using bodkins wouldn't even be able to pierce mail with a felt coat underneath. The race between offensive and defensive capabilities was almost entirely dominated by the defensive side for most of the medieval ages.
Oh well,
the new damage system is a really good reason to leave this mod forever !
This would be a very big nerf to all ranged weapons especialy for throwing stuff and high tier bows, because of the worse accuracy.
It also makes all helmets useless.
I wish you guys will have a nice time with all these high AGI archers, throwers, xbowers and with their (1-slot) arrow spaming machineguns,
which will headshot you all the time with the 262,5% damage.
Well done developers...
Well done :(
...and Fallen will still be like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqzc4NMT2vE
Hmm, lemme guess...?
9-10 PD
Longbow
Bodkins
Roof
Correct?(click to show/hide)
I love that people rage at a CHANGELOG regarding a patch that hasn't even been released yet and wonder why they are not taken seriously.
Since this change is a fairly big nerf to ranged classes, we decided to tweak several mechanics in order to make ranged more viable.
You can find a preview of the upcoming changes here (http://youtu.be/IG31e2UKOK0).
LolAnd all the melee users would sheathe their weapons until right before it started xD
I also notice a closed reticule in the vid. If the ranged reticules could close, like native, and the head hit box wasn't so buggy I might be down with this change.
The weapon drop could be abused. Just imagine, the hail of stones that would precede every H2H engagement.
Since this change is a fairly big nerf to ranged classes, we decided to tweak several mechanics in order to make ranged more viable.
You can find a preview of the upcoming changes here (http://youtu.be/IG31e2UKOK0).
Since this change is a fairly big nerf to ranged classes, we decided to tweak several mechanics in order to make ranged more viable.
You can find a preview of the upcoming changes here (http://youtu.be/IG31e2UKOK0).
Since this change is a fairly big nerf to ranged classes, we decided to tweak several mechanics in order to make ranged more viable.fucking awesome!
You can find a preview of the upcoming changes here (http://youtu.be/IG31e2UKOK0).
The only nice side effect would be that horse archers, who always suffer from lower precision and do less damage, anyway, become completely useless, which is really sweet!
Oh well,
the new damage system is a really good reason to leave this mod forever !
It also makes all helmets useless.
It also makes all helmets useless.
Wait wearing a helmet saved you from headshots? maybe from a xbow :P but a horn bow, war bow, long bow, heavy xbow and arbalest still seemed to 1 hit kill :P
depends on helmet and iron flesh/str
my 31 str alt can take 2 arbalest shots to the head before dying
depends on helmet and iron flesh/str
my 31 str alt can take 2 arbalest shots to the head before dying
my 31 str alt can take 2 arbalest shots to the head before dying
well, I survived it, I asked the player who shot me what weapon it was and he said arbalest, the damage is not always the same...
I love that people rage at a CHANGELOG regarding a patch that hasn't even been released yet and wonder why they are not taken seriously.
So, how long do we have to wait before our complaints are considered legitimate? Or is the very act of disagreeing with you enough to not be taken seriously?
It's more than just a note on a log now. It has been released. It's still a bad idea.
A lot more complaining than I'd like to admit, yes. I like the game, but disagree with some changes, so I bring it up. I actually have not played very often in the last month.I HAVE DESTROYED YOUR ARGUMENT WITH SIMPLE TOMFOOLERY.
Wont effect anything this change i all rdy get 1shot if i get hit in the face unless its a team mate
thats some BS chagan :P I get 1 shot in the face wearing the new 60 armour helmet.
Melee should just suck it up. The removal of ladders was the only nerf needed for ranged.
I dont really agree, normal ranged nerf was good, but Horse archers got overnerfed with it.
I played my HA today again, and it really feels like throwing stones.The missile speed on my tatar bow is extremely low and I just tickle enemys.Not to mention my well bred Steppe horse is pretty useless cause even with 8 Riding It´s slow as a wheelchair.
Infantry ranged are rather fine now, now we need a little buff for Horse archers(And only for Horse ranged).
I agree to a buff in HA/HC damage only if the bump shoot tactic is somehow made impossible to do. It basically locks up the infantry, be it a 2h, shielder or even hoplite, there's no countering it. If you don't keep your shield up, you get an arrow. If you keep it up, you can't attack and you are bumped.
archers .... a support class, if you want to see your name in the bottom left a lot use a 2h or polearm
I dont really agree, normal ranged nerf was good, but Horse archers got overnerfed with it.the missile speed wasnt nerfed...
I played my HA today again, and it really feels like throwing stones.The missile speed on my tatar bow is extremely low and I just tickle enemys.Not to mention my well bred Steppe horse is pretty useless cause even with 8 Riding It´s slow as a wheelchair.
Infantry ranged are rather fine now, now we need a little buff for Horse archers(And only for Horse ranged).
no, you're a support class, deal with it.
no, you're a support class, deal with it. you're not in the fight - you sit back and lob shit at the fight. you're supporting the dudes doing the actual fighting. the job of archers is to soften up the armored up 2h/polearm guys and kill a couple peasants before the main "clash" happens. thus, you are a support class. the last patch allowed you to play like actual combatants because of how OP the hornbow/bodkin combo was against armored up guys, now that it's been fixed you're whining you can't 3shot everyone anymore.
also, you can't tell other people to L2P. if you were good enough at your class to get consistent headshots (and archer is the easiest class to play) you'd be doing better - obviously you're just a scrub who had to crutch on a hornbow/bodkin combo and is now useless. respec to a real class if you can't handle playing support.
The only reason you designate them a support class is because you want them to be and get pissed off and rage at them. The same way HA is now designated a support class (there's absolutely 0 basis for them to be classed as that). The only reason they are, is because melee has decided they are to annoying. Not even OP most of the time, just annoying despite the fact that they have plenty of counters if people just paid attention. Why should melee be the ones to get the kills and do the most damage? As far as I'm aware, being shot by a couple of arrows in the chest is just as damaging as the slash of a 2h sword. Sacrificing protection in the form of a shield for the ability to carry a giant 2h sword should have drawbacks in that yes, you will die to arrows if you don't play it smart.
when a_bear_irl thinks archers seem fine, you know they got overnerfed.
when a_bear_irl thinks archers seem fine, you know they got overnerfed.
and who is he? some peasant? who always cry about ranged? i never saw him )
the missile speed wasnt nerfed...
Taken first day after so called fail patch.... cant u spray n pray archery fairy´s just stfu all rdy an atleast get used to aim for legs n head rather being depending on 2 shotting people in body shots like pre patch....
overdriven: because no matter what, archers always have the advantage of being far away from whoever they're trying to kill. i'm not opposed to archers being able to top the scoreboards, but it shouldn't be a regular sort of thing. this is a melee combat game and you're not in the melee combat, you're supporting the guys who are, that's just how the way it is, you're a support class.
Stop posting a fucking picture of Jambi's score in every damn thread. Between you, Christo and a couple of others, it's becoming seriously retarded.
hey just because most of you archers are total fail compared to Jambi doenst mean that the change is bad just because you gotten used to being able to 2 shot every1 in the body an are now forced to take more aimed shots at your enemy doenst mean that the change is bad it just made the game more balanced.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
hmmm what makes this a melee combat game
could it be the "mount and blade" title? could it be the fact that archery is a godawful cone of fire system that lost favor in 2003 in contrast to the one of a kind melee system? it's a melee game, the whole thing revolves around melee, cav and archers exist to serve the glorious infantry, you're just peasant HA scum
So let me get this straight melee are forced to learn how to feint an block while archers should only learn to rmb at their targets as fast as possible doing the same fucked sick dmg pre patch...
So instead of gettin better an learning to play you just come here and demand uber dmg on body shots so u wont have to aim for sweetspots like head n legs..
Ohh ok i see ill let you continue sry for interrupting your flood of tears..
Tzar is 1 of this girls who allways cry about people who kill him))
You deserve to be nerfed. Hiding on an unreachable roof with arrows dealing as much damage as a masterwork arbalest, without having to stand still for ages to reload. Your build combined with ladders and roofs is, and will always be, a fucking joke regarding balance.
No, they help in melee too. :)
Glad to see that as an admin you don't have a biased attitude.
Well, Wolves_Sebastian and his 100 pierce from a bow hiding on unreachable roofs, that's such a joke. However, I said the combined forces of being unreachable and having the damage of MW Arbalest and MW Steel Bolts with a bow. Just removing ladders would've been enough to remove that silly combo. :wink:
lol gurnisson) you use awlpike and i think allmost 1 shoot every 1 with it speed dmg bonus) so ofc sebastian want to have great dmg too, why he shoud not? only 1 archer with this build on servers, only for that i respect him. and i also think removing ladders shoud be only nerf for ranged, not this stupid dmg nerf, to make all melee whieners happy
Just removing ladders would've been enough to remove that silly combo. :wink:
hmmm what makes this a melee combat game
could it be the "mount and blade" title? could it be the fact that archery is a godawful cone of fire system that lost favor in 2003 in contrast to the one of a kind melee system? it's a melee game, the whole thing revolves around melee, cav and archers exist to serve the glorious infantry...
Again:
The nerf on ranged was too harsh, especially for throwing and xbows. As for archers, maybe a bit too much, but they deserved a bit of a nerf since they were a lot better placed than xbows and throwers before this patch. Nah, I rarely one-shot tbh, but there's a lot of two-shots going. :P
Nerfing arbalest is a joke, if you miss with the arbalest, you have to resort to your melee, unlike archers when you shoot you can just outrun the person. I don't think the arbalest should have been nerfed with the other range, i thought it was quiet balanced in my opinion.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Arbalestier only needs 15 STR, I believe, and no expenditure of skill points. The only reason all arbalestiers DID not run off from the fight to reload each time was that they have good stats for melee, and they choose to wear stupidly heavy armour (well, it doesnt reduce their accuracy, so why not?). EVEN HAVING these huge advantages over archers in melee, most arbalestiers DO disengage when possible to reload and grab another noskillkill. Also: with the massive accuracy and the lighting misile speed: HOW are you missing?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Arbalestier only needs 15 STR, I believe, and no expenditure of skill points. The only reason all arbalestiers DID not run off from the fight to reload each time was that they have good stats for melee, and they choose to wear stupidly heavy armour (well, it doesnt reduce their accuracy, so why not?). EVEN HAVING these huge advantages over archers in melee, most arbalestiers DO disengage when possible to reload and grab another noskillkill. Also: with the massive accuracy and the lighting misile speed: HOW are you missing?
Mount and Blade singleplayer (what the game was originally made for) field battles are largely won by archers and cavalry, with infantry there only to protect the archers. Actually, that had the best results in sieges, too. Holding your charge up the ladder until all of your archers had fired meant there would be very little opposition waiting at the top of that ladder. There's no question that archers won the day when defending in a siege.
Personally, the last thing I would ever want in my army, be it a field battle or siege, is a 2 handed fighter. An infantryman without a shield seems pretty useless outside of tournaments.
well, it doesnt reduce their accuracy
EVEN HAVING these huge advantages over archers in melee
It was nerfed like two patches back.But that wasnt the point of my post.Well i still hold an average of 3:1 kdr after the nerf.
the point was that Ranged infantry is fine now, but Horse archers got overnerfed.
Who is BlindGuy in game?how i remember some crappy archer, allways with bad score)
Fuck that nerf I'll never leave my Long Bow even if I won't see the crosshairs cus of unaccuracy ,even when my bow is so slow that I need to wait it to reload for next round,HERO nuff said.
even when the arrows land infront of me cus of low missile speed!
It does, reload speed and accuracy
Learn to make a build. You can make good archer builds with melee capabilities.
how i remember some crappy archer, allways with bad score)
So to put it simple. He doesn't have any idea how archers work and do they need skill or not.
So to put it simple. He doesn't have any idea how archers work and do they need skill or not.
Well, Wolves_Sebastian and his 100 pierce from a bow hiding on unreachable roofs, that's such a joke. However, I said the combined forces of being unreachable and having the damage of MW Arbalest and MW Steel Bolts with a bow. Just removing ladders would've been enough to remove that silly combo. :wink:
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(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/10pd.jpg/)
Check his «effective wpf», do you really think that he can aim?
All what he receive with his +4PD is +6 damage, in comparison with 6PD 180 wpf archer.
FREE RANGED!
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Well, after playing this for a few days now it seems pretty obvious that the ladder removal was a good decision, the body/head damage change was not.Meow For President!
I am saying this as someone who has nothing to do with balancing at all and also as someone who never cared about getting shot/smashed/lanced whatever, also i play a high Str polearm build without a shield so i am pretty much exposed to any incoming ranged fire.
All ranged classes except for super fast spam bows are now almost useless.
Headshots are nothing you do like in a shooter where aiming is everything.
You need a good portion of luck and you get most tries at a decent range using a fast bow.
So instead of making stuff like the Longbow useful it got nerfed further to the point where it is basically useless as you don't have a long enough optimal accuracy window to actually be effective although it's the most expensive bow and supposed to be the best choice at least in some way.
Throwing lances... you get one ammo per slot and you need two even for light/medium armored people EXCEPT you do a headshot with those pin point accuracy lances at which point they will do enough damage to kill you twice.
Along with that, cav got an indirect buff as horses take 33% less body damage like players.
So now ranged has no roofs and need 1/3rd longer to take down everything except they get lucky and hit the head.
What needs to happen is a nerf for ranged spam and a buff for the accurate ranged players, making headshots count more and everything else less was already the case since native.
No need to change it from where it was to be even more significant.
Rather reduce the accuracy on fast bows and make long range shooting something for the longbow guys.
Same basically goes for X-Bows, Throwing never was that accurate but suffered most from the nerf as far as i can tell (respecced to polearms before the nerf hit).
Also we need anti cav spikes asap and a possible revert on the 33% less body damage on horses.
The other option would be a complete ranged revamp for this damage change but that seems out of question.
As i said, i don't really whine about getting ganked by ranged stuff and to be honest it never really happend to me before the patch, I think I died like 1 out of 10 times from ranged stuff.
Now i either die from a lucky headshot or kill the ranged dude even if he gets 10+ shots on me.
It's just sad =(
FREE RANGED!
I for one think C-RPG is better after these changes. It will take time for people to adjust, but I think the genuinely good ranged players will be rewarded while the mediocre/poor will have to get better or change their playstyle. If you fail in melee you die..miss as an archer and you just try again, then if someone gets too close retreat towards friendly melee players. Ranged isn't quite PVP (compared to infantry/cav) so it MUST be player skill based in other ways. It should be hard imo rather than point and click with fast projectiles at the body.
If it needs tweaks then fine, but I wouldn't like to see it reverted to spamming body shots for 1 or 2 hit kills. People still die to body shots, I've seen plenty.
, but I wouldn't like to see it reverted to spamming body shots for 1 or 2 hit kills. People still die to body shots, I've seen plenty.
Well, after playing this for a few days now it seems pretty obvious that the ladder removal was a good decision, the body/head damage change was not.i agree with most of the things you say ,but gotta add 2 cents from my perspective :
I am saying this as someone who has nothing to do with balancing at all and also as someone who never cared about getting shot/smashed/lanced whatever, also i play a high Str polearm build without a shield so i am pretty much exposed to any incoming ranged fire.
All ranged classes except for super fast spam bows are now almost useless.
Headshots are nothing you do like in a shooter where aiming is everything.
You need a good portion of luck and you get most tries at a decent range using a fast bow.
So instead of making stuff like the Longbow useful it got nerfed further to the point where it is basically useless as you don't have a long enough optimal accuracy window to actually be effective although it's the most expensive bow and supposed to be the best choice at least in some way.
Throwing lances... you get one ammo per slot and you need two even for light/medium armored people EXCEPT you do a headshot with those pin point accuracy lances at which point they will do enough damage to kill you twice.
Along with that, cav got an indirect buff as horses take 33% less body damage like players.
So now ranged has no roofs and need 1/3rd longer to take down everything except they get lucky and hit the head.
What needs to happen is a nerf for ranged spam and a buff for the accurate ranged players, making headshots count more and everything else less, this already was the case since native.
No need to change it from where it was to be even more significant.
Rather reduce the accuracy on fast bows and make long range shooting something for the longbow guys.
Same basically goes for X-Bows, Throwing never was that accurate but suffered most from the nerf as far as i can tell (respecced to polearms before the nerf hit).
Also we need anti cav spikes asap and a possible revert on the 33% less body damage on horses.
The other option would be a complete ranged revamp for this damage change but that seems out of question.
As i said, i don't really whine about getting ganked by ranged stuff and to be honest it never really happend to me before the patch, I think I died like 1 out of 10 times from ranged stuff.
Now i either die from a lucky headshot or kill the ranged dude even if he gets 10+ shots on me.
It's just sad =(
FREE RANGED!
Edit: Just fixed some typos and stuff.
Well, Wolves_Sebastian and his 100 pierce from a bow hiding on unreachable roofs, that's such a joke. However, I said the combined forces of being unreachable and having the damage of MW Arbalest and MW Steel Bolts with a bow. Just removing ladders would've been enough to remove that silly combo. :wink:Tzz...
weapon_damage * (melee_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (power_strike * 0.08 + 1.0) + strength / 5.0So a mw flamberge with 159wpf, 10PS and 30str deals 102.01c to point blank(body) and no armor... remember this is without hold- and speedbonus.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/10pd.jpg/)
Check his «effective wpf», do you really think that he can aim?
All what he receive with his +4PD is +6 damage, in comparison with 6PD 180 wpf archer.
(bow_damage + arrow_damage) * (archery_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1) + strength / 5.0So I deal 100.05p...with the new patch it is 67.03p.Also we need anti cav spikes
You keep talking about skill based archery. With the size of the reticle and inaccuracy of the bows and xbows getting a head shot is luck based.
But you should die from 2 arrows to the body, unless you have armor. That's why shields were invented. All the balance nuts don't want to hear that though.
grumbs maybe devs make your weapon do also 33% less dmg, just because i want it, think it will be cool, and i think you will have some kills anyway, so why no?
But you think it would be fine for you to 1 shot someone with a body shot? I don't see how you could enjoy that gameplay.before patch i need min 2 shoots to kill some 1, peasants need 1 shot, high armored guys need 3 shoots, seems good and balanced for me,
But you think it would be fine for you to 1 shot someone with a body shot? I don't see how you could enjoy that gameplay.It's fun sniping people, now that it got nerfed the only thing i can think of while shooting is "Damn I'm not going to kill that peasant"
But you think it would be fine for you to 1 shot someone with a body shot? I don't see how you could enjoy that gameplay.Yes, because it is also possible with melee weapons.
This calculation works not correct. It is made for Power Strike and not for Power Draw.
i invite all my archers brothers to check this thread about buged arrows passing through bodies+1 feels like bolts come thru targets also sometimes.
and put a comment if u have same feeling as me!!
friendly archer ftw !!!!
Yes, because it is also able with melee weapons.
This is balance.. you know this word?
1-tincan still run with superfastspeed
2-shielders has super forcefield, so (maybe it is some lags) they can block hits from sides and somehow hit in the back.
3-you said destrier die fast-before patch destrier need 3 my mw arb mw steel bolts shoots to die, mw destrier. But look many use now plated horses, so now it is impossible to kill this sort of cv for ranged,
4-US presidents ride unicorns.
5-Beer is made out of fish.
6-The moon is hotter than the sun.
7-I'm not making any shit up, just straight facts. All of it.
*Compares his bow with a flamberge. Surely this is a valid comparison since you have to reach the enemy team on foot without dying, then engage in combat, having to block and deceive your opponent to get your hits in, all this while being exposed to all forms of ranged attacks when you use a bow. Just like with a flamberge. Not to mention that a 10PS build will die in many ashaming ways, either being too slow to dodge anything, or to have proper footwork in melee.*
Yes, because it is also possible with melee weapons.
This is balance.. you know this word?
Snip
10 PD, 156 wpf:
10 PS, 156 wpf:
All this complaining sounds really empty, when you know a bow does unblockable damage, and that shields, which are the only things that could eventually protect from it, are so ridiculously puny that an archer can safely draw his bow into an enemy shield, then move on the side like a fly with a jetpack and get a shot in. Archer stun ? What is that ? The thing that makes him unable to shoot for less time that anyone can actually notice, and that happens only half an hour after the shielder rammed into the archer, and only if the aformentioned shielder manages to hug the archer during all that time. And of course, a shield is soo heavy that it slows you down to oblivion. I think that in cRPG, the chars are not using their shields like they should. Even though it is displayed otherwise, they seem to be holding the shields with the side, so you can only block projectiles that happen to hit the shield's slice.
But anyhow...I still maintain this nerf was not needed. The ladder removal was enough. How can you judge the effects of one nerf if you add another one on top at the same time? One thing should be done at a time, particularly with the new launcher where updates are far more easy. There was no need to bring in 2 big nerfs for one class at once, particularly as the second affected all ranged.
Ladder removal is supposed to be a nerf to ranged (though I think NA will not be nearly as affected as EU). Can we deal with one major change at a time? Experiments are only supposed to have one variable at a time!
Thank you, Meow. At least one developer now sees our complaints as legitimate, and is nice enough to give a serious reply.I too agree about the ranged damage change being unnecessary and in general agree with meow. I won't throw out any names here but the people involved with this change have a clear anti-ranged bias and a tendency to conduct random acts of 'balance terrorism' instead of consulting the opinions of the item balance team. As a result we have what we have.
Drama brewing in the dev team?!More like rebellion in the dev team :P
He means that the body shots would take a lot less damage so people would have to do headshots to take significant damage.
interesting.
very interesting.
I love that people rage at a CHANGELOG regarding a patch that hasn't even been released yet and wonder why they are not taken seriously.
I was hoping this meant that it was an idea in the very early stages of development, and the balance team might actually come up with a very detailed damage locations system, as discussed later in this thread. NOPE. 3 days after that post came patch day.
We need names, to burn this anti-ranged my old friends and their houses !!!!
No shit, I gave a completely reasonable and awesome damage suggestion, but were groin shots implemented? NooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOooooo
That elmokki dude also wrote down a bow with 36p. Dunno about you, but I'd definetly want what hes got.
What?
A 10PS build works, a 10PD build sucks big time.
Also i think you missed the 33% damage reduction they get on body shots.
lol, all the rage. I think it was worth a try, but not really well thought through. Only if you think of HA and thrower it should have been clear that this totally destroys the classes (two classes that were already slightly too weak IMO, HA especially.
But it is clear that this needs to be reverted/heavily adjusted or whatever. With 8 Athletics I laugh at every ranged player, who is gonna headshot me if don't move like a freight train?
Also I even kinda miss standing far away from a roof full with archers and wondering what all the guys near the house are doing there getting shot into pieces, but I'm alone on this me thinks. :)
It wasn't meant as a "TROLOLOLOLOL 10PD BUILD OUTDAMAGES EVERYTHING", it was meant to point out that comparing raw damage like done in the page before is utterly retarded.
And yes, obviously it missed the body damage reduction.
The -14 wpf per pd is pretty damn huge. If they plan to keep some form othe current hitbox damage reduction, reducing that penalty is probably a very good idea.
And my build with 10PD only was playable since I reached lvl34 :!:
So try to reach over 80mil xp to get lvl34 with my build... and then think again if you want to whine about my build,
in which I spend a half year to make it playable :!:
It's your horse buffed, not you George.\
So you can bump more.
Because if you'll count damage versus medium armored target, it would be like:
Arrow in hand - 5% damage
Arrow in chest - 12% damage
Miss
Miss
Bump - 18% damage
Miss
Miss
Headshot - 40% damage
arrow in foot - 4% damage
miss
miss
Bump - 18% damage
Bump - 18% damage\kill
Your horse win
This calculation works not correct. It is made for Power Strike and not for Power Draw.
The correct formula is;Code: [Select](bow_damage + arrow_damage) * (archery_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1) + strength / 5.0So I deal 100.05p...with the new patch it is 67.03p.
With 6PD and 180wpf I would deal 77,79p...with the new patch it is 52,12p.
Notice that this is the max (body)damage to point blank, 0 armor and 0m range.
You spent HALF A YEAR making the most obnoxious build ever designed for pure roofcamping? O.o
I thought you were just part of the fad :s
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways:
One good thing about the patch that I'm noticing is that now whenever I get killed by archers, it's usually the same people. I've been getting killed way less by random arrowspammers, but rather it's the good archers that get me.
I like this, and I hope it was the intention.
so 54 piecre per arrow isnt enough?
Pretty much this..
The change have sorted out the skillezz spammers an rewarded the skilled archers.
Pretty much this..
The change have sorted out the skillezz spammers an rewarded the skilled archers.
Tzar has no clue about things, apart from the illusion that 2h is madskillzlol
Tzar has no clue about things, apart from the illusion that 2h is madskillzlol
Tzar has no clue about things, apart from the illusion that 2h is madskillzlol
you know not for all only melee is intresting, i will w8 some time, i have couple other games at this moment.
ok ill miss you....and i will not miss you) so today i will spend more time on my minecraft base then before)
says the roof camping hero the spamming horn bow user an the mounted fairy all 3 of em lacks melee capabilities but seems to know everything there is about how cRPG is supposed to be balanced.....
Priceless...
But keep crying maybe they will give you back your dmg so u wont have to adapt..
Agor since when did light kuyak an flat topped helmet become heavy hard armor :?: ohh wait nwm your just crying like a little girl sry.. forgot there for a sec..
says the roof camping hero the spamming horn bow user an the mounted fairy all 3 of em lacks melee capabilities but seems to know everything there is about how cRPG is supposed to be balanced.....
Priceless...
But keep crying maybe they will give you back your dmg so u wont have to adapt..
Agor since when did light kuyak an flat topped helmet become heavy hard armor :?: ohh wait nwm your just crying like a little girl sry.. forgot there for a sec..
and i will not miss you) so today i will spend more time on my minecraft base then before)
btw i dont said anything about kuyaks.
maybe now, but before when you was shielder you was in harder armor
How come good archers are still able to rack of lots of kills while all you guys are doing is comming here crying for giving back the sick dmg on body shots...
That must be the 100th time you posted that. Stop being a douche...posting the score of one person shows nothing.
Headshots is how it should be, archery had gotten WAY too easy with all the changes up until now, before only those who actually had aim could top the scoreboards easily (You see a lot of the same old school archers still top the scoreboards and do great), after all the archery changes making it accessible to tons of people with absolutely horrible aim and timing you saw all these new characters rising up.
IMO archery should stay a ranged class that requires a lot of skill/aim to be good at, it shouldn't turn into a 'Sniper class' as in any FPS where all the morons grab the class and camp a spot (roofs) for kills and then pat themselves on the back every evening - granted a huge multitude of people prefer such a boring and tedious type of gameplay I say we stick it to them and laugh in their faces :twisted: go play one of the many generic and brainless FPS games out there.
Perhaps there's some tweaking here and there needed, hopefully the balance team has that somewhat under control in time.
Buff Crossbow damage, keep Archery as is.
Wrong it just shows you guys are full of shit an lack skill to perform without having a huge advantage which u had pre patch in the form of the stupid amount of dmg you could land with body shots..
Ok I'll go find the scores of the best 2h and post a picture proving that 2h need to be nerfed...
Twat
Please, show me how you can receive 100p
Maybe you miss that you have only 16 effective wpf?
PS
81,5136p *0.67 = 54,614112p
Your damage today
Also I can't imagine how often you repairing your bow and arrows with your 16 wpf.
Tzar stop shitting up the thread.
Hitting someone with a headshot requires about as much skill as hitting someone at distance in mount & musket. Except the people in M&M have the courtesy to stand still for you, and the bullet travels almost instantly and there is no need to adjust the shot for arc or distance.
Anyone who's played a ranged class seriously knows that getting headshots is 30% skill 70% luck, unless someone is right up in your face in which case it's maybe more like 30% luck.
It's pretty obvious who in this thread has absolutely no idea how ranged classes actually function in cRPG.
Most good shielders don't wear "hard" armor, they have a good shield and that's the protection.
But I know there will be PLENTY of archers adapting to the new change just like every other class has had to adapt to a change at some point. The more time you spend bitching in here the less time you have to get used to the changes and getting better :idea:
Some people don't want to have to get better. They want to point and click at targets miles away and 1,2,3 hit them. At least in melee its pvp, IE you have to play against another player (shocking in a multiplayer game), and have to block and time attacks and think of positioning. Ranged is just too relaxed and one sided. Seriously though, the melee/cav mechanics in the game are leagues ahead of the ranged stuff. Its just not in depth enough to warrant high piercing damage so being encouraged to aim for the head at least lifts the bar up a notch.
Until the ranged mechanics are complex and as good as the other aspects of the game the damage should be support type damage imo. You get the stun on hit still regardless of damage and can go into melee range whenever you like to finish someone off. Especially as a crossbowman, you can do melee as good as anyone else
Some people don't want to have to get better. They want to point and click at targets miles away and 1,2,3 hit them. At least in melee its pvp, IE you have to play against another player (shocking in a multiplayer game), and have to block and time attacks and think of positioning. Ranged is just too relaxed and one sided. Seriously though, the melee/cav mechanics in the game are leagues ahead of the ranged stuff. Its just not in depth enough to warrant high piercing damage so being encouraged to aim for the head at least lifts the bar up a notch.
But as far as I know(I checked the code for a while ago) this wpf increasing/decreasing on PD doesn't effect the damage- and upkeep calculation.
I've spectated Jambi, and I would like to know why he can't replicate that score again. :rolleyes:
I guess he is now no skill. :shock:
I've spectated Jambi, and I would like to know why he can't replicate that score again. :rolleyes:
I guess he is now no skill. :shock:
sorry ranged guys, the biggest lobby, with the biggest e-peens, the most butthurt for every change, i name the 2Hs, got their way 8-)
and on top of that certain ppl do nothing but gloat about it all day long. I do however agree with the people saying its all about adapting because it is.
Then I don't understand all the bitching about the patch. Most ranged on the forums only had this single phrase in their mouth when discussing the issues : "deal with it" or a variation.
So now that they have to "deal with it", it's not fair anymore ?
Isn't there a problem ? You know, something about hypocrisy.
I say, melee had to "deal with it" during ages. And if it's that bad, the balance team will buff the most hit classes/playstyles (throwing first I think) soon enough.
but leave the damage as it is imo...So that you can still laugh on the damage of ranged weapons
why should ranged do lots of damage?
You clearly don't live in this reality. Archers are the only class to recieve a nerf in every single patch ever released for this game. Melee has had to "deal with it"?
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'Hey.... clearly the risk vs reward doesn't count for ranged players if you haven't noticed the ranged lobby attitude.. offcourse its only fair they do the same dmg as melee while they be standing behind the rest of us busy in the meat grinder while they pad their kdr behind our backs without risking gettin cut to peices..
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
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I agree that this nerf was a bit over the top, but still ranged fighters should deal with the idea that not having to fight hand to hand in melee automatically should reduce their damage output.
Still realism will always be a bad base to argument about balance.Sure...?
I hate how the biggest noob archer can take out the best enemy dueller with a lucky headshot, without the dueller having done anything wrong, besides not hiding behind an obstacle and doing... nothing!This is the job of ranged.
'Hey.... clearly the risk vs reward doesn't count for ranged players if you haven't noticed the ranged lobby attitude.. offcourse its only fair they do the same dmg as melee while they be standing behind the rest of us busy in the meat grinder while they pad their kdr behind our backs without risking gettin cut to peices..
I do see a heavy cavalry domination approaching, because ranged got nerfed so heavily, and pikes are almost unplayable to anyone but the best players. So we will soon either see some nerfs reverted, or cavalry being further nerfed.
Sure...?
...for balancing the missile speed on ranged weapons it was a realism argument,
but for balancing the damage it isnt? ... interesting interesting
This is the job of ranged.
They have to kill the enemy while they stay outside the battlefield ... doesn't matter how good the enemy is.
And luck is a big part of this game especially for noobs(and not only for archers) ... deal with it.
Sure...?
...for balancing the missile speed on ranged weapons it was a realism argument,
but for balancing the damage it isnt? ... interesting interesting
This is the job of ranged.
They have to kill the enemy while they stay outside the battlefield ... doesn't matter how good the enemy is.
And luck is a big part of this game especially for noobs(and not only for archers) ... deal with it.
why should ranged do lots of damage?
No word about melee/ranged damage comparison ? And your reason to argue they should be equal ?I did this more than enough.
From what I've seen this has helped cavalry a lot too, they're at far less risk from arrows now which used to deal a lot of damage to their horses, it seems they've got a more free reign over the battlefield due to this. Of course it's gonna be a week or two before the pikes come back out but the previous slot changes may effect this.It's a heavy hit on cavalry actually.There's alot more spears+pikes around, and archers that know what they're doing can 1(head)shot my champion destrier.
Also horse archers suck now.
It's a heavy hit on cavalry actually.There's alot more spears+pikes around, and archers that know what they're doing can 1(head)shot my champion destrier.
Then I don't understand all the bitching about the patch. Most ranged on the forums only had this single phrase in their mouth when discussing the issues : "deal with it" or a variation.
So now that they have to "deal with it", it's not fair anymore ?
Isn't there a problem ? You know, something about hypocrisy.
I say, melee had to "deal with it" during ages. And if it's that bad, the balance team will buff the most hit classes/playstyles (throwing first I think) soon enough.
You really want to base arrow dmg off of realism? Having arrows stick and not do any significant damage to things like mail? Bouncing off of plate and scale?
Agree.Buff xbows to what they were before the nerf - ~10-15% of their damage.And throwing.. well, let throwing just ignore thenew ranged body/headshot values imo =).
Also, buff arbalest/heavy xbow and throwing weapons. 8-)
Agree.Buff xbows to what they were before the nerf - ~10-15% of their damage.
Agree.Buff xbows to what they were before the nerf - ~10-15% of their damage.And throwing.. well, let throwing just ignore thenew ranged body/headshot values imo =).
Sure...?
...for balancing the missile speed on ranged weapons it was a realism argument,
but for balancing the damage it isnt? ... interesting interesting
This is the job of ranged.
They have to kill the enemy while they stay outside the battlefield ... doesn't matter how good the enemy is.
And luck is a big part of this game especially for noobs(and not only for archers) ... deal with it.
[...]
Yes indeed. Melee had to deal with it from the dawn of Warband. You know in Native archers still shoot like M249's ? cRPG evolved in the right direction with most of the patches. And it is only now that I see we are close to something remotely fair.
Basically, melee making whining threads resulted in the ranged saying "deal with it". This is not about nerf/buff patches and the epidermic reactions that ensue. This is about the state of the game. It's only human that ranged whining gets the same stupid answer.
I made the same remark, but I think Sebastian in particular will never get this.
So I have to deal with the fact that if I, as infantryman, DO have to care how skilled my opponent is, to kill him with a lot more effort (melee > shooting), just to gain the same result, under much higher risk? Is it this you want to say?
Well, I think you could be right. Luck seems to play a big part in this game, so you need to be quite lucky to land headshots over medium and long range. Deal with it.
I really wanted to support the claim to revert the archery nerf, but if I see that archers still don't appreciate how incredibly togher an infantryman's life is compared to that of an archer I say you deserve all bows nerfed to 1c damage. Really. :evil:
(A few weeks ago I created an archer alt and level him up with STF, and logged in to the battle server. On my very first round with that completely new character I shot the Nr. 2 and Nr. 4 on the scoreboard of the enemy team. All I had to do is to aim a bit higher and to lead a bit, and then I clicked. Ridiculous.)
NO NO NO AND NO
i dont know who said heavy cav will now prevail is wrong
My bottom line: being infantry is much harder than being archer.
I am kinda impressed to read that.
When i went throwing it felt like it created a 50m death zone for cav around me.
Mostly focused on taking down horses though.
Still i did not feel op just like a natural counter to cav, hitting inf charging me was random and i do not want to imagine how it is right now cause aimed headshots seem completely impossible outside of 3 meters range.
I am not sure what changes need to be done but maybe it really needs a semi set class system with different roles rather than a system where everyone is supposed to be equally effective.
Think everyone knows that, no?
That it is my bottom line or concerning the content?
Sorry, but I disagree.
I think in no way you can compare footwork, manual blocking and attacking to aiming above, leading a target and releasing the LMB at the right time. Only the sheer amount of inputs by mouse and keyboard during melee exceeds the amount needed for archery by far, let alone the reflexes and the concentration needed to persist against good melee fighters. An archer duel with sidestepping is nothing compared to it.
And infantry is threatened by cavalry and archers at the beginning of the round, same like archers, with the small difference that at this point archers can already participate in combat, infantry can't. When the melee starts, infantry has to watch out for all three classes, infantry, cavalry and archers, while archers stay out of the melee and have only to be aware of archers and cavalry. And being in the central melee is the most dangerous place on the entire battlefield, there is no discussion about it. Only at the end of the round archers have to watch out for infantry, but even then latter first needs to walk up to them.
My bottom line: being infantry is much harder than being archer.
This was a misunderstanding, I meant cav in general, and especially light cavalry, as this is a class which is close to being sustainable with the upkeep budget.
An infantryman's life is not tougher. My hoplite has 0 trouble with ranged. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been killed by ranged in one full generation. My archer gets killed far more than ranged than that ever does. Furthermore, I have never once had a problem chasing down ranged. Usually if I give up the chase they just keep on running so they aren't an issue. It's about playing smart. But for some reason a 2h sword seems to render a lot of you meleer's plain stupid and you just charge in hacking and slashing away and expecting to come out of it alive.
I admit my 2h is more susceptible to ranged, but even then it was still an annoyance, most of my deaths came from melee without ranged every playing a part. But still, if you stuck with your team, avoided archers and dodged if you saw them aiming at you, you could avoid the vast majority of ranged fire.
Both types of play have individual challenges. Neither is easier or harder. You can spam both, but you can also be incredibly skilled at both. The majority of players are average in both classes, but I bet the best melee and the best archers took a similar amount of time to reach the highly skilled level. People have preferences and shouldn't be punished for those preferences. This applies for cav, melee and ranged.
Im pretty sure I havent bitched about anything. I did however say its too soon to know how this have affected game balance and that the ranged people will adapt or change class. I also dont think this has in any way made ranged more skill based. Its certianly harder to kill someone with body shots but on the other hand you can oneshot guys in the heaviest gear (which is silly for everything but the heaviest crossbows). Thing is because of game mechanics its more about luck then skill.
Ranged tend to say 'deal with it' to melee because my God will melee not shut the fuck up about it. Every patch ranged is nerfed, and every patch it is still not enough. There is always something wrong. That is why ranged think melee should just suck it up and 'deal with it'. Because melee is never happy. You can bet in another 3-4 months time there will be constant complaining about ranged once again, and trying to find 'solutions' to the ranged 'problem' that is plaguing our servers...
Rarely have I seen ranged calling for the nerfs of any other class. But for some reason melee constantly call for the nerfs of any form of ranged, cav, anything that can interrupt their uber ability to be superman. So yes, melee should just bloody deal with it because archers and ranged have had to deal with nerf after nerf after nerf, simply because melee will NEVER stop whining.
Ranged tend to say 'deal with it' to melee because my God will melee not shut the fuck up about it.
1. Your hoplite guy runs around with a huscarl
2. You're a horrible duelist
And during all this time melee called for nerfs, there was NO reason for those ?
Melee were just doing for the fun of it. Because of course, all melee are bizarre human beings that tend to whine 10x more than others, under the same (just and balanced of course) conditions. Is that what you really think ? That the actual players have completely different mindset that would make some whine more than others ?
Okay then. I hope you, like all the other ranged, will stand by your words and immediately stop whining, shut up and deal with the patch. Otherwise, you are no better than melee whiners before it.
There was a need for the nerf that came waaaay back in the jan patch with the animation changes ect. Then it was needed. Anything after has just been compensating for a problem that wasn't there. The cav nerfs, the HA nerfs, the throwing nerfs, the archery nerfs. All were nerfs that actually changed fuck all, because within a month or 2 melee was whining yet again. And that's the point, it just seems to us ranged that melee will not be happy until anything that can kill them other than other melee is nerfed into the ground. Melee can say 'deal with it' to ranged all you like, but the fact is melee will find something else to whine about very very soon. Probably cav again.
It was sad to see that spam is still very viable and that most polearmers still abuse stupid polestagger. Also most 2H still abuse hiltslash. Same ol', same ol'...
2h weapons outrange the non sheath able polearms. and 2h weapons do admirable damage upclose. they still need to figure out a way to balance polearms if they remove the hitstun.
Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation:
1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61
2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80
2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19
1h Polearms
Thrust = +50
Using this it's pretty easy to figure out what ourreaches what.
That said, the Glavie is kind of a silly weapon imho, but if you have trouble fighting it with a GS, try doing it with a polearm. Same shit, just worse because you don't have the stab.
I'm not talking about an archer duel. But they require completely different skill sets. If you are to blind to see that then so be it.
Archers have to watch for melee as well. Now that there is no roofcamping and long range archery is mostly luck based, it's very easy for melee to catch archers out. Take a shield and just work your way around towards them, it's perfectly manageable. It is the most dangerous, but that doesn't make it the most difficult. If you use some brains you can survive quite easily. The people it's most dangerous for are the ones who charge straight in and end up fighting multiple people because not enough of their team is with them. If you stick with your team properly and work with clan members or even friends, it reduces any form of danger drastically. But regardless, they require different skill sets and each has their own difficulties. But one is not particularly harder than the other to get a lot of kills and damage out put.
Well, there you go. Look at the difference between 2h and everyone else. No wonder they've nerfed ranged. The 2h are at such a disadvantage.
Yes, both classes need different skill sets. But the archer skill set is much easier than the infantry one.
Made an archer STF some time ago with zero archery. Managed an even K:D ratio easy, but it was so boring to play him that I didn't explore it to any depth.
I've spectated Jambi, and I would like to know why he can't replicate that score again. :rolleyes:
I guess he is now no skill. :shock:
That 2h thrust info is outdated. I believe it is something like +60 now. Maybe less.
So what you are saying is that this was before the required 14wpf per PD, and well before the significantly slower arrow velocities?
So ancient history countless patches old?
I love how we balance the game the absolute top 10% of players rather than the overall statistics? 1 archer posting amazing scores? Nerf archery.
Of course, it's strange because when 7 cav are taking up the top slots despite dying every round and the rest are filled with 2h/polearms no one has a problem.
CRPG players are honestly the worst and we're getting exactly the game we deserve. I can't wait till archery is nerfed into oblivion and some of your pet classes are the next on the chopping block, it's going to be hilarious when you find out what archers have been dealing with for months now.
I was saying that archery is fine as it is if a good player can still get a good score. Just like with cav and melee.
Okay, i'll put it this way- statistics doesn't work on a single data point. If one archer is posting great scores yet he's the one archer people keep posting (where are the other archers getting great scores?) then there's an issue, but CRPG logic states "that one guy is good and everyone else sucks, there is nothing wrong with the overall as long as one person can exel" which is the height of ridiculousness.
For my own 2cents, i used to avoid quality archers like martian_manhunter but now i simply ride towards them laughing my ass of as their arrows do less than 5 to 10% damage to me and even less to the horse.
Well they should adapt. As long as they aim for the head and not spam arrows mindlessly they should do just fine. One player is enough to see that this is entirely possible.
Can't hit head? Get skill then.
I too balance statistics around one data point. :rolleyes: Meanwhile 10IF and 10 PS builds laugh as many weapons bounce and they kill on accidental glances and that's skillful and A-OK.
This mod has the worst community ever.
This mod has the worst community ever.
Okay, i'll put it this way- statistics doesn't work on a single data point. If one archer is posting great scores yet he's the one archer people keep posting (where are the other archers getting great scores?) then there's an issue, but CRPG logic states "that one guy is good and everyone else sucks, there is nothing wrong with the overall as long as one person can exel" which is the height of ridiculousness.
For my own 2cents, i used to avoid quality archers like martian_manhunter but now i simply ride towards them laughing my ass of as their arrows do less than 5 to 10% damage to me and even less to the horse.
Heh, melee asking for a removal of ladders were asked to "adapt" so I guess this was only very predictable.
1 more death.. but meh. Here ya go. Archery realy isnt as nerfed as many think. But i urge developers to focus on cav nerfs now.
Well ylca....
And now think in that direction....
Archery gets easier and the same guys scoring awesome k/d now, would score even better.....
Archery can be deadly, it is possible in case u play it right.
If you dont score that well, your playing style is wrong, dont you think?
Its like trying to turnfight in a Fw 190 against a spitfire. Its not gonna happen....because you simply play it wrong.
And as a sidenote...:
How many really good melee players are out there?
Its the same thing there ;-)
10 Nerf archery threads get a response but the two people who go on servers and show that arrows do next to no damage to most targets by testing, taking screenshots, and showing their data get completely ignored.
Okay so great archers get a great k/d while all other archers inch back towards medicore. This is a problem Meanwhile we have this doublethink where we all accept that most CRPG players are terrible at melee and manual blocking, yet somehow it's very skillful to get in a fight where either
A. You have at ton of HP and armor and you can miss 10 blocks and kill with one
or
B. You have a ton of agi and can circle and dance and get plenty of kills cause no one can keep up.
Okay so great archers get a great k/d while all other archers inch back towards medicore. This is a problem Meanwhile we have this doublethink where we all accept that most CRPG players are terrible at melee and manual blocking, yet somehow it's very skillful to get in a fight where either
A. You have at ton of HP and armor and you can miss 10 blocks and kill with one
or
B. You have a ton of agi and can circle and dance and get plenty of kills cause no one can keep up.
These are examples of great skill whereas pulling fucking trajectory calculations on the fly as achers have to do while needing multiple shots to kill is still considered so OP that archery got another nerf. Again this is why i say this is a terrible beta community. Nerf the things you don't like into oblivion, ignore everything else until the game is completely unbalanced and worthless.
That right hand swing delay lasted for all of two seconds because people whined about it, now swinging right gets plenty of kills, yet no one complains about "skill" then.
Most people in CRPG are hypocrites who only want the best for their team and fuck the rest of the mod balance and the sad thing is that the devs listen while absolutely ignoring the few people who put in valid feedback, test issues, and actually go on servers and take the time to compile real data.
10 Nerf archery threads get a response but the two people who go on servers and show that arrows do next to no damage to most targets by testing, taking screenshots, and showing their data get completely ignored.
It's balance by mob and it's why there are massive changes every patch. Most games make incremental changes after months of playtesting, CRPG makes huge changes after weeks of one class bitching about a class they never play while ignoring other classes that are massively popular.
Is there any reason that a massive 2her should ever swing faster than a tiny 1h? No, but that's never going to be patched out because 2hers are popular.
Beta. What a fucking joke, this is a high school popularity contest.
Btw....in every shooter headshot aim seperates the casuals from the good players ;-)
Oh boy, you are overheating on that one.
You think that min / max arguementation will make you seem eloquent and objective?
No sir.
You state examples that make up for ~5 % of the playerbase....
About deflection gunnery....well I play Il2, and you deflect 40 degree angles or more at speeds well over 700 km/ h sometimes......WHILE USING a throttle, a joystick and peddals.
Now tell me you cant deflect shots on obj. that move @ 10 km/h or 40 km/h while using ur mouse.
Btw....in every shooter headshot aim seperates the casuals from the good players ;-)
Btw....in every shooter headshot aim seperates the casuals from the good players ;-)
Btw....in every shooter headshot aim seperates the casuals from the good players ;-)
I don't think archers should be getting a lot of kills, I think they are a support class meant for weakening other infantry, killing horses and finishing off wounded players
Did YOU decide that? Did anyone ASK them if they wanted to be a support class? STFU with "support" class, there's no medics here, the job of archers is to RAPE 2handers, cav and shieldless polespammer. ABSOLUTELY RAPE them. RAPE them so easily, they must hide and wait for shielders. That WAS their job and still should be, not some luckshooters who have to hit head hitboxes in a game where head hitboxes are folded out of the material plane of excistance each time the target starts spamming feints. Archery has been effectively removed from the mod as a class. Some will hang on, the same ones who ppl think are good now, like Jambi and Hetman, because although they are not good at melee OR at fighting other archers, they are persistant. And that is THE ONLY way to play archer now: Surive untill most enemies are badly wounded and mop them up. Horse archery has been ACTUALLY removed from the mod: You see maybe 2 a day.
ALL of this because bundle of sticks 2handers and polespammers dont like that they are rock, and paper beats them. Game was built that way, and last year of patches has been trying to fix a nonexistant problem.
I dodnt even understand why any of this is under discussion: Just lock EU1 to melee only and then all heros can be happy. Fucking pussies. Just cause you cant fight it doesnt make it broken, it means you fail. Change your playstyle, not the game.
yesterday i was on eu1 and see merc zerobot1 in action. Only one thing to say NERF ARCHERS !!!!
Hs is OP!!! :twisted:
Jambi have alone single handily made all the noob archers whining in here look like a fool i think its time we close the whine threads an move on....
No reason all the scrub archers keep posting tears when they should be more focused about adapting rather then crying..
About cavs, they have always been OP.
. Run 20x faster then not cav (guessing)
. Have 2 life bars.
Just to list 2 things I remember now.
In the others hand, besides the money you pay for it, they get almost no down sides.
And don't tell me repair influence on balance, they can pay 1 million still imba.
Funny how when the right swing delay came in people complained until it was removed, but when archers get nerfed patch after patch the response is "adapt". :rolleyes:
More stellar balancing from the CRPG community.
I would actually say this is a ranged buff, if you actually know what you are doing of course.
Not really, archery already did bonus damage for head shots before. It was almost always a 1 shot kill in mid/short range, more likely a 2 shot kill if one of those was a head shot at a longer distance.
Now it's still almost always a 1 shot kill in mid/short range, and maybe a better chance at being a 1 shot kill at longer range. But any headshots from long range are essentially lucky shots; you aren't going to be able to effectively headshot at range with the crosshairs.
This is an archery nerf, plain and simple.
The bonus damage was far less, (175% multiplier), now I believe it is 300%?
You are forgetting that there is also a slight accuracy buff, which makes headshots easier. I can now 1 shot kill with a headshot from barbed arrows aswell (I have no heirlooms for my archer either), I also saw pre-patch some people surviving my bodkins arrows to the face with heavy enough armour, so now I know that aiming for the head is going to be worth it. I think it makes archery much more skillfull, it separates the good archers from the bad ones, so just getting a bow and spamming into a group is no longer effective. I am having much more fun with archery now and my scores have stayed the same as pre patch with the added bonus that my score with barbed arrows is higher than pre-patch.
It went from a 75% increase to a 100% increase. Not a big buff to anything worth using.
What accuracy buff are you talking about?
Yesterday I was playing on low populated server (EU4) and I must say that this change created a huge chasm between good archers and crappy archers. Sadly, there isn't that many good archers playing c-rpg.
Of course, on big server things change. On those servers cavalry rape everyone wearing light armor which includes archers.
- Archer B aims high, hits with 20% of the arrows in medium range, but over half of those hit the head and give a kill. Total damage dealt from this archer might actually be lower than the other guys, but you (seeing the headshots and the kills) think "WOAH THIS ARCHER IS PRO!".
Yeah I was spectating Jambi and noticed that's how he gets a lot of his kills. Most of them are point blank head shots. Hardly ever fires at even a medium range target unless they are completely stationary. So much for that Jambi score proving anything :rolleyes:
If you have to fire at point blank range to sucessfully hit...there is something very wrong.
Long range fire needs to be done in volleys and large numbers to be effective, because bows aren't snipers (and they shouldn't be snipers). A clan might want to do some funny volley event with super cheap gear in order to outnumber the enemy, but I don't see that working very well with the damage reduction over long ranges.
Long range fire needs to be done in volleys and large numbers to be effective, because bows aren't snipers (and they shouldn't be snipers). A clan might want to do some funny volley event with super cheap gear in order to outnumber the enemy, but I don't see that working very well with the damage reduction over long ranges.
because bows aren't snipers (and they shouldn't be snipers).+1
It went from a 75% increase to a 100% increase. Not a big buff to anything worth using.
What accuracy buff are you talking about?
I don't think you've been paying attention to the discussion. You can't accurately aim for the head unless you're really close. This is what you're probably seeing:
- Archer A aims normally, hits with 50% of their arrows in medium range, 90% of the successful hits hit the body. Damage is dealt, but few kills.
- Archer B aims high, hits with 20% of the arrows in medium range, but over half of those hit the head and give a kill. Total damage dealt from this archer might actually be lower than the other guys, but you (seeing the headshots and the kills) think "WOAH THIS ARCHER IS PRO!".
Yeah I was spectating Jambi and noticed that's how he gets a lot of his kills. Most of them are point blank head shots. Hardly ever fires at even a medium range target unless they are completely stationary. So much for that Jambi score proving anything :rolleyes:
If you have to fire at point blank range to sucessfully hit...there is something very wrong.
So bows are the medieval shotguns? I never knew...
Volley fire in pubby would be completely useless. That's a pretty daft idea Kafein.
And the list goes on n on n on....
But yet archers still seems to think Mount And Blade war band cRPG is to be the best FPS game out there for some reason :?:
Clearly chadz don't want this to be another shooter so why don't u pack your shit folks...
I don't fuckin get it... why don't the archers who wont adapt an does nothing but keep complaining an wanting to turn cRPG into some medieval shooter GTFO an play some of the billion fps games out there with better graphic effects guns ect ect ect....
This is not true at all, Jambi has been tweaking his aim for headshots only for around a month. He seems to be able to aim at medium range and get a reasonable amount of headshots, you just need to know when to shoot for the head and when for the body. Jambi will get most of his kills in close range because he is focused by most people, and hence will not get much chance at the medium range shots. Archery should not be conducted at large ranges either, I have always played archery in close-medium range, any further and it's pointless. I do see people trying to spam arrows across the map which should not be viable since it takes no skill.
In real life bows can be quite good snipers, but this game is about balance and not about "Oh look I fired my bow and the arrow magnetised to that guys face".
Jeez tzar you just keep on going with retarded nonsense don't you.
Because the whole point is to increase skill. If skill is shotgunning people in the head at point blank range, then that's a bloody weird concept. Hitting anyone in the head at even medium range is pretty much pure luck.
When I watched him he had plenty of chances at medium ranged shots. But he just waited until people came close and headshotted them.
It's pointless because the accuracy is so damn bad. Because of the missle speed shooting at range would still be highly skillfull even if the accuracy was increased because it still requires perfect judgement to get the trajectories right. More skillfull than shooting close. But right now it is ruled by random chance if you just point in the general direction that you should.
On a side note: Jambi is actually enjoying the ranged changes, so it's quite clear more than 1 of us thinks this is actually a good move who actually play archery.
That's because it benefits him enourmously because he doesn't suck at archery
Archery is called ranged no? So then it should be used at range.
That's because it benefits him enourmously on the play style I just described. And anything below 10m or so is shotgunning.
QuoteThat's because it benefits him enourmously because he doesn't suck at archery.
But what's the point behind that when damage is so gimped that only a handful of players can score a positive score? And we still have to put up with mindless trolls, both in game and in here, saying that archery is fine, just so that their particular classes dont have to suffer.
Do your own testing if you think Im exagerating about the kill counts, but dont come here feeding crap to people who have first hand experience.
Then by this definition it's not skill-less, since once a target gets below this range you start to worry and the target will dodge at this range much more. So actually headshotting a target at this range is actually quite hard. This change does not benefit his playstyle solely either since Jambi is possibly the best archer in cRPG, he can easily play any playstyle and does the mixing of the archer A & B style as I mentioned earlier. If it's so easy to play like this then why is Jambi and a few other archers the only ones using it? Like Tzar said, adapt to the change, I would not see it as a nerf since it stops me from being spammed in the body by truly skill-less archers who are firing at me from across the map or just firing randomly into a group or location.
Nice edit there :)
And Overdriven I use a bow at range, I can't stab my twohander's great sword 20m away now can I? As I said I can reliably headshot at 20m and possibly more, so it's not melee range.
If you don't have the balls to stay near your target then you shouldn't do massive damage.
When did I say anything about massive damage? Even getting a bodyshot on any body at long range is incredibly difficult with the current accuracy.
I did my own, I play archery on my alt. I have no looms and hence I have a huge disadvantage since looms have more importance for a ranged char, still I get good scores as an archer, if I am in the right mind-set I can outscore Jambi sometimes. Archery is fine and that's from my testing.
Now you still can't completely ignore archers, as they still inflict damage and they can headshot you, but also archers have to adapt to infantry and the fact that they can't score kills over half the map and over safe distance. Everyone has to adapt to everyone. Sounds fair to me.
Irrelevant. A noob, armoured melee guy has even more chances of killing, than a seasoned archer does, as the patches keep comming.
If they compensated somehow with more accuracy and more arrows then you could talk about adapting, but a nerf is a nerf, people dont adapt, they suffer from it.
This is just hilarious. There's few melee players whining about archery and defending nerf with all possible ways and explanations.
So... archers need to adapt to it? Can I ask...
What you did before patch?
No, you didn't adapt. Still you didn't learn to dodge, you didn't buy shield, you didn't move behind shielder. You were whining here at forums about how archery is all mighty and powerful. And it was all good before nerf for those who knew how to deal with them.
Now it's just couple archers doing well, and rest have to adapt?
So... let's nerf melee and buff archery. Chase and companions are doing well anyway, so rest need to deal with it? Fair? No. Stupid? Yes.
Most likely whining will start soon again, as melee idiots really haven't learned anything. Archers are going to adapt in idiotic game system and sure they will do better soon again and that's when you start whining again. But is this new "only headshots count for good damage" really that well planned?
Sure, heavy armour should be able to take punishing and quite much ignore arrows that arent made for penetrating them, but they should also move much slower to compensate that. But when I move around in my pilgrim robe and can take few arrows to my chest while laughing at archers, something isn't right. Sure you wannabe heroes are happy with that, it's better score for you (free kills anyway till they learn to headshot only and most don't with latency issues etc.) but some of us here actually want to have balanced and _fun_ gameplay. And... now if you want to make headshot, you NEED quite high WPF yes? So what about hybrids?
So if they nerf ranged damage again we have to adapt again? If they compensated somehow with more accuracy and more arrows then you could talk about adapting, but a nerf is a nerf, people dont adapt, they suffer from it.
They did compensate for accuracy from what I can see.
How so? There was a +1 accuracy increase on the longbow :|
On top of that my bow seems much more accurate post patch. There was no patch notes on this but my crosshair definitely looks tighter.
Irrelevant? You asked for someone to try archery and test and you say my opinion is irrelevant, that's called data omission. A "noob armoured melee guy" will not get consistent kills since he will get killed by cavalry, infantry or ranged. A "noob archer" will have little chance to kill consistently but will occasionally get an arrow in which will kill a target, this chance is probably less than that of the swordsman, but the archer will be of slightly more support to a team aswell.
Telling me that YOU did well with your own style is irrelevant and overused.
Look at the scoreboard and tell me those numbers actually mean anything.
Yeah man, I want to spam arrows across the map and get lots of kills. Screw how the high scoring archers are playing.
Yes? They register the kill ratio of different people with different styles.
And most archers are usualy listed below the average melee guy, but I shouldn't have to tell you that if you play the game.
No! I just want as much a chance of getting kills as anyone else.
As I said in the other thread from my point of view (2h, 8 athletics) the change was just a huge ranged nerf hidden behind an attempt to "add more skill" (which doesn't effect my point of view). Before patch headshot was deadly in 95%, now it is deadly in 300% while headshots happen a bit more but not much due to high ath (difference=0). Every other hits though are drastically weaker.
If a nerf was necessary in my eyes a tiny overall damage reduction would be better, especially because this would effect HA's and throwers not that much. HA's are really only to be pittied now, even before patch they did little harm. The fun/challenge in killing one has been drastically reduced.
This is just hilarious. There's few melee players whining about archery and defending nerf with all possible ways and explanations.
So... archers need to adapt to it? Can I ask...
What you did before patch?
No, you didn't adapt. Still you didn't learn to dodge, you didn't buy shield, you didn't move behind shielder. You were whining here at forums about how archery is all mighty and powerful. And it was all good before nerf for those who knew how to deal with them.
TBefore the patch, range had no melee/cav counters and was effective against everything except shielders (yet still effective if the shielders have to kill the ranged). Now, range still has no melee/cav counters, but at least isn't as effective against everything as before.
I don't think the devs wanted to disguise anything, in my eyes this has made ranged more skilful. It did break crossbows admittedly and I do hope they will re-balance them but overall the change was a good idea. Maybe archery will need a buff to accuracy but I hope the change itself stays. Yes HA is broken and I really do wish they would change that but the HA is a class which is hard to balance since it relies heavily on attrition of arrows.ye, I don't think that either, just tried to tell how the change affects me when playing. I really can't tell (even theoretically) if it made ranged more skillful and if this is a good thing or not.
Basically the effects of the HA skill need to be increased massively since we already had damage+accuracy reduction.
Wait what? Cav is a perfect counter to range. Especially because ladders were removed.
Then what do you have to say to people that totally adapted against range (cav + 1h/pole and shield) yet never got any decent result against it to actually justify the price of that adaptation ?
Before the patch, range had no melee/cav counters and was effective against everything except shielders (yet still effective if the shielders have to kill the ranged). Now, range still has no melee/cav counters, but at least isn't as effective against everything as before.
Learn the role of your class, support + killing, compared to cav/2h/polearm just killing. If you are getting as many kills as a 2h of the same skill as you then your class is not balanced, since you are getting as many kills and assisting others. The scoreboard is not entirely representative of how much you helped your team, ranged can pick off very important members of the enemy team whereas cavalry only kills indiscriminately.
As much I am for constructive criticism, this is, with all respect, the biggest bullshit Ive read so far on the whole topic. A ranged fighter is the most fragile target that walks the ground and is always the first thing focused by cav, melees and other ranged that have visual contact. Hell most melees would even run across the whole map and chase them to the borders just to get that kill. Now that archers have to get even closer due to the fact that a lvl 30 archer with a pure archer build still cant hit shit consistantly thats further away than 20 meters, thus being forced to headshot in order to do damage at all, those encounters are even more common and with the lack of melee support of the average, unorganized team archers are just as easy to kill as peasants. Peasants with bows that is. And dont get me started about the new arrow models which you cant see midair, leaving it up to you to take a guess where your arrows are going.
Seriously someone post a video in the guide section please so melee actually get an idea what they are talking about.
No offence intended.
There's one thing I don't get from the archers: Since when did 2/3 damage equate no damage at all omgomgomg? Yes, it's a heavy damage nerf, it turns a 2-shot into a 3-shot but it's not rendered bodyshots completely useless. You still have damage, and you still have the stun.
There's one thing I don't get from the archers: Since when did 2/3 damage equate no damage at all omgomgomg? Yes, it's a heavy damage nerf, it turns a 2-shot into a 3-shot but it's not rendered bodyshots completely useless. You still have damage, and you still have the stun.
Depends on the bow...but for example with my MW hornbow, it used to take 5-6 barbed arrows to kill a guy in something like say...brigandine. Once you add the extra damage on post patch, that's now effectively 7-8 arrows needed. Not gonna happen ever.
Most of my grumbling come purely from the HA side of things. Although I do feel the normal archer nerf wasn't needed. I just want something done about HA because we really did get screwed over the most along with throwing. Particularly as 90% of the time an HA is shoot and move. We were already an annoyance due to our accuracy/damage reductions before the damage nerf...now we may as well not exist.
Then what do you have to say to people that totally adapted against range (cav + 1h/pole and shield) yet never got any decent result against it to actually justify the price of that adaptation ?
Before the patch, range had no melee/cav counters and was effective against everything except shielders (yet still effective if the shielders have to kill the ranged). Now, range still has no melee/cav counters, but at least isn't as effective against everything as before.
Well, I've actually tried some HA too (27/12 or 24/12, can't remember), and a good tactic is just to ride slowly up to/away from your target whilst shooting. (Negating HA penalty) Sure you're open to cav attacks, but no more than infantry, and besides maneuverable (i.e horses with good accel) horses are the best for HA.
just adjust your style a bit and you can get great acuuracy and be able to get even closer than footarchers since you are so much faster than a footsoldier.
I think you need a video guide that would explain that an archer in rags runs faster than a shielder, even if the shielder is in rags too and magically survived the battle until he starts chasing the archer.
Ranged are focused by melee/cav when the opportunity is given because opportunities are nearly the only way. An archer may be fragile, that doesn't make him unable to dodge cav and outrun melee he is aware of. Possibly while kiting. You stressed on that, but I think this is exactly what makes your argument weaker. If ranged weren't dangerous, there would be no need to go after them. The fact you are pointing out is that melee and cav are focusing ranged. This is more a symptom of ranged power, rather than of a lack of it. I personally don't chase peasants or anyone that I consider weak enough not to be worth my time.
No offense intended.
No offense taken.
1.
No matter how fast the archer runs, without help or serious lack of skill on the shielder side, shielders will always be a 100% invulnerable for ranged attack. Not that great balance.
2.
The problem I see is, cav ALWAYS has the opportunity to pick their targets due to their superior mobility. Theres nothing that hinders them to ride along the borders coming in backstabbing any archer that focuses on giving firesupport. Also archers have to stay somewhat stationary to shoot effectivly, so they are attracting quite some projectiles. Of course I turn around in panic immediatly when I hear cav approaching from behind and do 360° degree checks for enemy ranged and melees. But there is definitly no way to have "no melee/cav encounters" as you stated.
3.
One of those things I think Ill never understand regarding melees. When you know that archer can put you down with one arrow in your head, allthough it might not be very likely to happen, why are you charging them upfront as a 2h/pole ? Im sure there are shielders/other ranged/cav in your team still alive who could do the job with much lower risk. Why for gods sake do some melees always have to beg to get shot in the face ? If you cant kill it leave it alone, or it will kill you.
4.
Pretty simillar to "3.". At this moment we can actually wittness how the nerf circle closes again. "Because archery is too strong, its a big threath, therefore I have to eliminate it. I failed at doing so, so nerf archery. *NERF* Now that archery is nerfed, I have to take even less effort to kill archers. Damn allthough they got nerfed I still cant kill them without ease, meaning they need to get nerfed again ..."
But that's the thing, HA shouldn't have to ride slowly in order to hit something. Though you'd have to with your strength build :P You may as well just be a foot archer if you are going to do that and it pretty much ruins the gameplay of HA. You don't go as HA to ride slowly whilst shooting, you go for the fast riding and shooting and the intensity of it. Plus if you are in the cavalry fights, which most HA will be because it's one of the fundamental jobs of HA, you have to be able to shoot whilst riding fast and actually hit something for damage.
Like I posted in the other thread, it took 9 shots to a destrier, with a lancer finishing it off to kill it. 5 to a desert horse and 5 to an already damaged arabian. With horse head hitboxes as buggy as they are, an HA's main job has pretty much been cancelled out now.
Atm the best tactic is a shotgun style, risky but it works quite well. Notch the arrow just before you get there, drift you horse in close to the left, shoot from the side and then swoop out to the right. And there's always horse bumping as well. But considering we are forced to use a lower powered bow, and rarely will get a headshot if moving at speed, the damage nerf is very noticeable.
According to whom?
And my build did great vs. cav. I didn't need a lot of shots to bring the horses down, and even if my crosshair went to shit at higher speeds, horses were big enough targets.
3. So we should RUN AWAY, when our only hope is killing the threat ?
1. Unless there are 2 ranged against 2 shielders, then unless archers screw up, shielders are doomed. God forbid there are more than 2 archers versus more than 2 shielders.
2. Unless he position himself correctly, or have -you know- teammates?
3. So we should RUN AWAY, when our only hope is killing the threat ?
4. Strawman.
3. So we should RUN AWAY, when our only hope is killing the threat ?
They did compensate for accuracy from what I can see.
3. So we should RUN AWAY, when our only hope is killing the threat ?
1. Unless there are 2 ranged against 2 shielders, then unless archers screw up, shielders are doomed. God forbid there are more than 2 archers versus more than 2 shielders.
I don't think that any class should be running away from another. Especially not if the other class can shoot after the running one.
That's another reason why I hate horse archers that much. There are several classes that can't defend against a horse archer, or are even completely defenseless, and there isn't even a chance to run away. You are completely at their mercy. And I don't like this, because the horse archer can defend himself very well against all classes.
Either all classes have absolute counters, or none. Either all classes have to adapt, or none. Either all classes require teamwork, or none.
Now we are more of an annoyance than particularly lethal.
Like it should be :wink:
But that's the point. Archers have to run away from melee if they get to close because archers have very crap melee capabilities. 2h can try charging archers down, and with enough dodging they can catch up, especially against a bow as slow as a longbow for example, but they should expect to take damage in the process, because as soon as that melee gets close, they will be the ones dealing the damage, not the archer.
I think most classes do pretty much have absolute counters. But the interesting part is that skill can throw all of that off and that's how it should be.
Yeah but that's why HA were nerfed way back. Because everyone complained there were OP. Now we are more of an annoyance than particularly lethal.
The problem are the little differences: infantry has to come CLOSE to have archers run, while archers can deal damage all the time, even if the infantry is running.
The problem are the little differences: infantry has to come CLOSE to have archers run, while archers can deal damage all the time, even if the infantry is running.
I don't think that any class should be running away from another. Especially not if the other class can shoot after the running one.
That's another reason why I hate horse archers that much. There are several classes that can't defend against a horse archer, or are even completely defenseless, and there isn't even a chance to run away. You are completely at their mercy. And I don't like this, because the horse archer can defend himself very well against all classes.
Either all classes have absolute counters, or none. Either all classes have to adapt, or none. Either all classes require teamwork, or none.
1. Imagine a 2d map with 2 points. These 2 points are the archers. Since arrows fly in an almost straight line and dont penetrate shields let alone players, everything behind a shielder is safe. If you draw a line between these 2 points/archers, this is the space where the shielders have to move/position them selfes in order to protect their buddie from 99% of all arrow hits. Or in a simpeler manner: they just have to protect their backs. I dont see the problem. Common sense ...
Edit2:
+ what Overdriven said. Its funny that teamwork seems to be a lot more intuitive among archers than melees. I once was one of 3 last man standing, all archers. 2 armored guys approached. IMMEDIATELY we formed a PERFECT triangle around them without anyone saying/writing a word, outplaying them masterfully. This is why Im proud to be an archer *wipes tears* :D
2. Granted you have some sort of building, sure. Open ground however does not let you position your self in a way to be safe from cav. Also Ive very rarely seen melees defending archers on a public. Theyre more likely focused on killhunting. Still cav can pretty much move whereever they want, from which side they want, backstab and be gone. Even if you hit the rider the horse will just bump you for 1/4 of your health.
3. As stated: If your are a 2h that is very susceptible to arrows it is not best idea charging archers is it ? Shielders for example are more suitable for that. This is the idea behind different classes I would guess.
Edit:
+ what bonekuukkeli said
The problem for me isn't the strength of ranged against shieldless infantry. It's how shielders and cav are poorly equipped to counter archers. Shielders being too slow, and cav lacking arrow protection and being too easily dodged.
No point continuing this discussion. Yes. We have been playing different game.
If you charge solo, you die and that's how it should be. Shielder even if he can't catch up archer, can "lock" archer from doing anything for whole round _easily_. If he escapes to his teammates you have 2 options. Engage and try to survive or then fall back to your own team-mates. You are really talking like this game would always be 1 vs 1 or something like that.
Anyway... yesterday I charged 3 archers and killed them all. How did I manage to do it with only 2h weapon and crappy pilgrim robes? I didn't cross open field! I went behind them from bush to next, from corner to another. And when I was near them, I waited till they were shooting someone else further away and at that point I engaged. They had only 2 options. Try to run away or fight back with retarded melee abilities. 1 tried to fight and died, 2 were trying to aim me but with their 1 guy trying to fight in melee between them and me, they were unable to do it. Point is... they tried to shoot me, so they HAD to stand still. I killed one after another using this same "meatshield" tactic and killed them all.
Sure they all were noobs and should have escaped, separated etc? Yeah.... but people aren't perfect when someone suprises them like this, they tend to panic.
I must be superhero! No. I just figure out how to deal with them. Mindless rushing has never worked for me so I tried something else. You should try that as well. Playing like this worked before patch as well and as told, I NEVER had problems with archers if I do what ninjas do "Mind is my armour".
Well Kafein, once again I find it hard to agree with most of your statements, might it be because I dont think it is correct or I just have another point of view. I dont want to reexplain my position the 3. time here so ill just accept that its your opinion. Maybe we do played a different game there.
I just want to state that in my eyes balance needs to take both into consideration: the average player, who uses his possibilities in by his average level. If the average player of a certain class uses less teamwork than the players of other classes, you have to balance accordingly, or the gameplay on the servers will suffer from it.
But you also have to take into consideration the maximum possible performance of other players. You must not allow some "nerds" to become absolutely dominant and unkillable, and you also have to take care that all classes have about the same skill ceiling and efficiency. Otherwise all good player who want to maximize their performance would change to that one particular class.
You are probably right that most infantry players play less intelligently (?) than they should. But you can't just accept it, shrug and see how only cavalry and archers decide the outcome of a battle and the infantry being downgraded to the "lemming grunts" and "cannonfodder".
That's why I think that the argument "if the class would use more teamplay they wouldn't have that problem" is not valid. And thus there needs to be done something about. In my eyes nerfing/buffing the effectivity of a certain class does not work well, because it also affect the skill ceiling. I rather prefer solutions that change the behaviour of players. For example some kind of command system with rewards, that would make infantry stick together more, allowing them to deal better with archers and cavalry.
I suggest you try that as a shielder, because it is completely unrealistic. Both having to run towards a kiting archer and following what he does to make sure not to be shot on the sides of the shield, while simultaneously watching your back to make sure you are covering your teammate, that's not easy. Furthemore, since our archers are faster than the shielders, especially when the shielder is forced to block, nothing prevents any of the archers to sidestep slightly and fire into the other shielder. Even more problematic : how are the shielders supposed to reach that line between the archers in the first place ? The archers can both kite backwards and make this impossible. On average, the shielders are doomed.
Teamwork is a lot more intuitive among archers than melees, because the game engine is like that. Arrows don't travel sideways, and there is no risk for your archer teammates, no matter how skilled you are. The triangle thing is also very natural for everyone, melee do that all the time when outnumbering, trying to get in the back of the enemy. Hell, even me as a totally noobish archer I do that when I team up with other ranged. Thing is, it is a lot harder to do when you are up close and have to block and time everything you do correctly to avoid hitting teammates. Archers don't have to worry about their teammates at all because the risk of shooting them is usually negligible, except when firing into melee. That's not outplaying, that's relying on your speed and range advantages to get an easy victory.
Most decent archers pull off horse/rider headshots to those that try to kill them with ease. I guess they have a secret. Or is it just awareness ?
Running away doesn't solve anything. The archer just follows you at a safe distance until you die. I guess sometimes it works because an ally ninja'ed the archer. But then to be fair there should be two archers. And this starts to look like what I've explained in my first paragraph. As a shielder, it is arguably my role to chase archers. However, I can't force him to stop and fight me since he's faster. I'm merely locking both of us in a less defendable stance, but I can't do anything else. Furthermore, this little jogging will more than likely end up in the enemy team for me, with the archer unscathed.
The problem for me isn't the strength of ranged against shieldless infantry. It's how shielders and cav are poorly equipped to counter archers. Shielders being too slow, and cav lacking arrow protection and being too easily dodged.
So for you "locking" someone is effectively countering it ? Then I wonder why archers aren't just repelling 2h instead of killing them. Actually, the 1v1 hypothesis helps you, since if there were two archers and two shielders, it would be worse, and so on.
Totally wonderful, except this isn't a "charge". Anybody can kill unaware players of any class, what you said doesn't prove anything. Decent archers either follow their melee teammates or have good awareness. Sneaking on people isn't a valid tactic, simply because you can't do that on a large scale, and you are completely dependant of your luck since if somebody spots you you'll soon have the whole team attacking you. Imagine a whole team of archers against a whole team of ninjas. That isn't going to work. No matter how you approach the issue, other classes on average deal with archers by outnumbering them.
Ruins the fun. Why would you want to ride a trot just to score a couple of kills? Also completely negates the point of the HA skill. Even if a horse is a big target, if your playing against smart cav, you need the accuracy to be able to score decent hits.
I'm not even suggesting that HA needs to be a heavy hitter. But they were in a good place before the nerf and could hold their own. Particularly if you were on your A game. Now they are very underpowered. At least the traditional build is.
Plus in an HA vs HA fight 24(27)/12 builds would just be funny.
On paper, a good archer should own a good 2h any day.
Like it or not, a "good" AGI archer will own any "good" 2Her now due to headshots making your head go supernova due to the HS bonus, helmet armour or HP be damned.
I'd rather have that than these random prepatch "strolling around... bam! 80% from a random str-archer".I stopped wearing helmets since patch lol.
Also, it makes the choice of helmet more of a style-thing which is great :p
For the HA maybe... If you're a lamer who wants your class to be totally immune to 2/3 of the playerbase :rolleyes:
Going dragoon style to me at least seems more reasonable. You still have the HUGE advantage over foot archers of being able to run away from all infantry without effort, but the style at least requires you to have some basic situational awareness. And from my point of view regular HA's were kind of fine balance-wise before the "nerf" (because, as said if you go dragoon style with a more agi-orientated build, you can get closer to your target than any footarcher and score headshots) but 1. they were too annoying and 2. loomed ha's were not fine (I got 3/4-shotted by fricking HA's on several occations, not balanced).
Nononononono. NO.
Why do people think that warband should be some R>P>S bullshit?
"Looks like you picked the wrong class, sorry but you're completely fucked now"
NO!
all we need now is to nerf draw speed, and give archers a movement speed cap. remove polestagger, nerf pike stabspeeds and finally the game will be ballanced
2/3 of the playerbase how? You're more susceptible to cav, because you're in the cav fight at speed, more susceptible to infantry because moving at speed means corrections are a lot harder to make quickly if inf appears and you have to ride close to actually hit them. Yes archers have a hard time hitting you, but it's still perfectly doable as you have to come in close to kill them.
Dragoon style to me just seems to ruin the class. Who wants to play an HA dragoon style when you should be doing it like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKgSC7JPIk .
Or even faster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ralvcO6bAoE
In my opinion going dragoon style needs far less situational awareness. You are moving slowly or not at all, don't overly have many threats as you can just move slightly out of the way of anything all the time. Riding at speed provides more opportunity for screwing up, people to catch you off guard ect and that's part of the fun.
2h, pikes, archers, hoplites...they are all annoying in their own situation. HA has been nerfed already and in no way was it OP. Not even loomed HA were. Those HA's were evidently using bodkins. But most can't because it's crippling for upkeep with the horse ect on top. If they were using barbs or even tartars it would have taken more. Which is why the nerf for horse archery was not needed in anyway though we seem to agree on that in part at least. It's a class that was already screwed over a while back and tbh was in about as good a place as it could be for balance.
It's still very situational, skill based, prepartion based, environmental based. There's always a chance for the 2h. But you're delusional if you think everything can be balanced for everything else to have a fair chance. It's pretty much impossible to do so due to the sheer number of builds. Now if you throw a good vs average ect ect then things can mix it up. But the archer in that situation should have the advantage and should be able to, on paper, kill the 2h. Doesn't mean it's going to happen though.
But that's part of the issue...if people think that everything should be able to fight everything fairly, it would explain why everthing gets nerfed constantly. It's a hopeless dream.
all we need now is to nerf draw speed, and give archers a movement speed cap. remove polestagger, nerf pike stabspeeds and finally the game will be ballanced
1. If you somehow manages to get killed by melee inf as HA, then you fucked up. Badly.
2. I want it to be as fair as possible, I understand perfect balance is not possible ofc, but it's pretty simple to make sure every class stands a chance. Forcing HA to slow down to shoot efficiently would accomplish that. They still would be next to immune to melee infantry, but they'd have to expose themselves to lancers.
3. It's your notion of "should" annoys me. Yeah sure you might find it great fun to zoom around the battlefield playing a jetfighter midst comparably stationary targets, but how is that fair/fun to them? "Fighting" a HA is the most frustrating thing to do as melee infantry. You ffectively stand no chance and all you're doing is hoping to delay him for as long as possible until he either gets sick of shooting you or just for the purpose of delaying him. That's why I like the idea of slowing down to shoot. You still have the battlefield mobility, you still have the positional advantage but you're forced to actually expose yourself for a second. How close do you dare to go? Risk vs. reward. And don't give me any bs about how avoiding inf is hard as a HA. You can virtually ignore them if you just plan half a step ahead.
He just wants to catch up HA next. Something that melee can't do, they whine about.
I sense some serious l2p issues here.
I don't understand why melee should ever be able to challenge HA unless they hide, wait around corners etc (what people do all the time and it works quite well).
Also... lancer can catch HA if he uses his brain or invests enough in riding skill. When you ride behind someone, you can always take shorter route when HA tried to turn.
But yes, let's hear more whining till this nice thing in this game is nerfed to ground as well. Less challenge, more fun for melee heroes.