Another school shooting in Murrica (Oregon edition)

[Vovka]

Does Russia allow gun ownership? Russia has almost twice the homicide rate of the United States.

nah we use axes and knifes.. guns for weak

[Grytviken]

Yea there is information about the number of crimes deterred by private citizens with guns. The number of fatalities is actually quite low, but hundreds of thousands of crimes have been prevented.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

just a simple google got me this.

[LordBerenger]

Fuck you, man, I didn't say you could use that picture of me and the cheeseburger.

Nice new avatar.

[Overdriven]

Yea there is information about the number of crimes deterred by private citizens with guns. The number of fatalities is actually quite low, but hundreds of thousands of crimes have been prevented.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

just a simple google got me this.

Perhaps, but the general outline of that article is the NRA are full of crap with the 2 million mark and the conclusion: As the V.P.C. paper states, “guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes.”

The most interesting stat there is 'there were only 230 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm”'. So if I take this article as correct that answers my question. 230 people fired a gun and killed someone in self defense/whatever. Not very many compared to the 8275 total gun homicides.

[Grytviken]

Perhaps, but the general outline of that article is the NRA are full of crap with the 2 million mark and the conclusion: As the V.P.C. paper states, “guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes.”

Yea the NRA has their own agenda, it's rare, but it's still 100's of thousands of crimes prevented over years. Also in the worst of situations there probably isn't time to react even if you have a gun, and the majority of weapons stay in homes and never leave.

[Vovka]

Yea there is information about the number of crimes deterred by private citizens with guns. The number of fatalities is actually quite low, but hundreds of thousands of crimes have been prevented.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

just a simple google got me this.

230 kills in self-defense and how many were shot dead while trying to self-defense?

[Grytviken]

230 kills in self-defense and how many were shot dead while trying to self-defense?

Probably alot more because murder is random and theres no time to react in most of these situations, if someone sneaks up on you what are your chances if you have a gun or not? it's mostly hundreds of thousands of break ins where people saw the owner had a gun and ran away which deterred the crime. Most people don't carry guns everywhere they go.

[Overdriven]

Probably alot more because murder is random and theres no time to react in most of these situations, if someone sneaks up on you what are your chances if you have a gun or not? it's mostly hundreds of thousands of break ins where people saw the owner had a gun and ran away which deterred the crime.

But that's all conjecture. Perhaps a lot of those crimes wouldn't happen if criminals didn't feel emboldened because they have a gun?

Going by the statistics presented that's 230 justifiable homicides vs the remaining 8000 unjustifiable. Until the first number outweighs the second there's no argument to be had here.

[Grytviken]

But that's all conjecture. Perhaps a lot of those crimes wouldn't happen if criminals didn't feel emboldened because they have a gun?

Going by the statistics presented that's 230 justifiable homicides vs the remaining 8000 unjustifiable. Until the first number outweighs the second there's no argument to be had here.

Could go either way, maybe more crime if they knew there were no gun owners. Also even if you did ban guns they would still be smuggled into the US through South America and Canada leaving only the criminals with guns. The criminals that did have guns probably accounted for the 250 justifiable, and 1000's of home owner deaths. Back to what vovka said, alot more people probably die trying to defend themselves, which is not accounted for here. Unjustified could also refer to the castle law which some states have and some don't, but no judges really care if the defendant thought they were in danger and shot someone breaking into their house, it will just be labeled unjustified if the criminal didn't have a weapon.

[Overdriven]

Could go either way, maybe more crime if they knew there were no gun owners. Also even if you did ban guns they would still be smuggled into the US through South America and Canada leaving only the criminals with guns still.

Funnily enough the only articles I can find on gun smuggling and Mexico are from guns being smuggeled from the US into Mexico and not vice versa.

From the US immigration and customs website:
'HSI and its law enforcement partners target the illegal movement of U.S. origin firearms, ammunition, and explosive weapons with the ultimate goal of preventing the procurement of these items by drug cartels, terrorists, human rights violators, foreign adversaries, and other transnational criminal organizations and individuals that utilize these weapons to facilitate criminal activity and commit acts of violence.'

Perhaps TV and films have misrepresented this but it seems the issue is guns leaving the US, not entering.

So illegal firearms most likely crop up from other means. As others have suggested, probably from stealing from legal sources inside the US. As I've said before, if you make guns illegal, owning and carrying them illegal then you cut of the supply of illegal guns. Eventually confiscations ect will clear up the streets for the most parts. Naturally there will be exceptions. But if there are only 230 justifiable homicides vs 8000 then who's going to notice? As no one is actually really using guns to defend themselves in the first place relative to those using them to kill criminally.

[Grytviken]

Justified is just a play on words, a grey area in the law. In some liberal states you are technically legally obliged to allow the criminal an exit from your property unless you think your life is in danger, at 3 in the morning most people will just wake up and shoot them thinking they are in danger, so when they find no weapon on the criminal it will be labeled as unjustified.

[Grytviken]

You talk so much about weapons as a defense against an armed attack ... is there any statistics on successful self-defense ?? After the charlie hebdo someone tried to recreate the attack but with the condition that all journalists were armed. I can not say the exact result, but it was about the same with what happened. And out of mb 10 cases, only one was able to shoot one of the attackers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESPr7PXmHFk

Yes we went over this, in most circumstances it only takes a split second to get shot, there just isn't enough time to react, real life is not like a movie, if someone gets one up on you in real life you are not going to see it coming and be killed whether you have a gun or not. The majority of firearm owners never take their weapons out of the house, it's not the wild west anymore.

[cup457]

so basically all of you want us to bend over and take it from every motherfucker that wants to, just because you fell threatened by something that isnt evven in your country?

[Xant]

If someone puts a gun in your face you bend over or die, regardless of what's in your safe at home or one ill-advised arm movement away from you.

Speak for yourself. All of us aren't scared little nerds.

[Overdriven]

Speak for yourself. Not all of us are a fictional action hero who can pull out a gun from nowhere and shoot the evil criminal scum all in the time it takes for them to pull the trigger.

Nobody knows how heroic you were if you act like a retard and die immediately cos you have Clint Eastwood/martial artist delusions.

Scared little nerds need a gun to feel safe, and plan their lives as if they live in the wild west or some post apocalyptic wasteland. Hug your gun closer, it'll protect you from those mean old criminals you run into every day.

Heskey give up. It's in the constitution so untouchable. They must own guns and justify it with illogical reasoning because it tells them to do so. Even though it doesn't at all and it's horrendously miss-interpreted.