Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Molly]

Since we only speak bollocks right so that must mean what we say isn't true and is all made up..

Wow, finally some insight. Phew, I already thought you actually believed all that shite

[Butan]

I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure NATO promised USSR not to expand eastwards. (not Russia) And btw, it's just as much the eastern countries begging to join EU and NATO, not the other way around. There was plenty of resistance in EU towards eastern countries joining for example.

As much as I respect countries choosing their own alliances for their own sovereign reasons; you gotta admit that its a piss poor excuse 

Its one of those things most of the westerners dont get: as soon as USSR broke down, buzzards followed and took everything they could from the beast of the east while it was at its weakest, and used bad semantics such as "promised to USSR, not to Russia" to basically do whatever they pleased. A bit like what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

The cold war I is over, but the hate is still strong and nothing seems to stop cold war II from starting, *if everyone keep being autistic*.

[Tibe]

NATO haven't been bombing sovereign states, or surrounding geopolitical rivals with military bases, they're whiter than white, well that's what I determine from the attitudes of Molly, Kaffein and now Tibe... Since we only speak bollocks right so that must mean what we say isn't true and is all made up..

When did I ever state that NATO was the force of pure good? Ive been nonstop shittalking Russia, thats basically it.

Hello, the  is here again.

I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I am still missing proof that Russia shot down MH17. If you still remember what MH17 is… Now Putin requests clarification since the interest in clarification of what really happened is shrinking. Mass media aren’t saying anything about it anymore. We should not forget the tragedy concerning MH17, and we should not forget the victims of the plane who were abused just to produce more agitation against Russia.
Do mass media think we are stupid??? If they are all so sure that it was Russia, then where is the proof?

The NATO (USA) is far more aggressive in the world than Putin… The US-government needs oil, gas and money to be able to pay their debts (highest in the world). So they stir up hatred between groups in a country they will profit from, and when the tensions are high enough, the US will “bring democracy” to the country. Well, in Saudi-Arabia there is also no democracy, but that is tradition then… The biggest plan is now to increase tensions between Europe and Russia, so Europe won’t buy Russian gas but American gas, with the help of fracking, TTIP, TISA and so on…

That is such nonsensical assburgers. We can basically stamp USA on everything that ever happened and claim it was "due to their enourmous dept". What kind of bullshit logic to you think the world works on son? Myyybe it is true. But you have to admit, you sound like a utter moron when you say it out loud. "USA intervened in Ukraine to start WW3 in russia cause they are in a gigantic dept, dept in which they basically own the majorty to themselves". Seriuslly. Say that shit out loud somewhere and noone will ever take you seriusly again. Thats dumb assuptions and connections made on Illuminati level as in:" We cant prove shit, but I can clearly connect the dots since im such a visionary and others are blind." One thing that conspiracyidiots never seem to figure out that some unpopular ideas are unpopular for a reason. I have sillyass assumptions like this myself, but I keep it to myself like majority of people. Cause this is still basically shooting in the dark. Hardly factual at all. Everyone can connect the dots mate, but for every person the shape is different.

[Kafein]

People don't like being proven wrong. But I'll have to do that again, I'm afraid: Murmillus just said you're the most annoying person. Ba-zing.

Murmillus did not say that I'm the most annoying person.

Found a little side information while reading at article on dissolving parliament of Ukraine:

Noone ever talked about that?
It gives more credence to the accusation of a far-right political domination.
Only countries where far-right is prevalent do you see far-left being outlawed or banned.
In this case it is also probably because communism = soviet = russia for some 

History shows that "communist" parties have rarely been acting based on ideology (as a French guy you should know that), so banning "the communist party" is not really banning far-left. I'm pretty sure there are communist parties not affiliated to Russia in Ukraine. Most likely the structure of the party was actually used to support the Crimean annexation and the eastern rebels, which kind of justifies this outcome.

No, I'm British Thomek.

You have made fair points and have some insight that I lack, in regards to first hand experiences. However I believe your latter point that I've bolded at the bottom is complacent and somewhat naïve. I've never compared the West/Russia as equals, I've only called out the NATO states on their own blatant almost nonstop aggression this century, following on from the previous century, and pointed out the fact that these actions and open acts of power projection will justify an international resistance to NATO, its agenda and the states within it which would then potentially lead to another axis vs allies scenario setting the stage for another global conflict.

I made a point in response to kafein in another post that one size does not fit all, the Western model simply doesn't work in pretty much most of the non Western world, and the point stands when comparing the living standards of Russians, Ukrainians and West Europeans. There are many reasons why many Russians/Ukrainians are generally individually worse off than Westerners however this argument should not be used to excuse geopolitical interference that leads to conflict, destruction and bloodshed, no matter the actors or their reasons. Also I believe we should not be so complacent in the apparent superior living standards in the West, nations all over Europe and the U.K are year on year exposing their populace to ever further degrading living standards due to the rise of living costs and the freezing of private and public sector pay.. Things are not getting better in the West financially for the working class, of which I am a part of, they are getting worse, and who knows how bad things will become before they start to improve again, if they ever do that is. This is why I believe its complacent to state that our living standards are better than those in the East when in a decade or more this may no longer be true.

So what you are saying is that third/second world countries without democratic governments (that is, excluding countries such as Brazil and India which for some reason are on good terms with NATO) deserve their autocrats, because the people who live there are not western? First, that's discriminatory and second, political refugees (that is, people with a first hand experience of the regime) tend to argue otherwise.

The fact of the matter is that the leaders of democratic countries do whatever they need to do to get reelected, which includes fighting regimes overseas that the public does not like for whatever reason. Those reasons including oppression (e.g. Lybia), aggression (Koweit war) and genocide (Serbia), among others. People living in NATO states didn't really give a fuck about Russia or Ukraine as long as one wasn't forcefully annexing a part of the other.

I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Isn’t that obvious enough?

I repeat what I wrote before: in 1990 the NATO promised Russia to not further expand to the east:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I suggest you (and all other readers of this thread) try to inform yourself on the actual treaty, not the RTNews version of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe
Also this page should make you learn a few other things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

So actually no, NATO never agreed to refuse membership to eastern states, even including Russia. It's also Putin who put a moratorium on the treaty in 2007 and used it to gather much larger forces than allowed by the treaty in Russia's border regions.

[Kuujis]

As much as I respect countries choosing their own alliances for their own sovereign reasons; you gotta admit that its a piss poor excuse 

Its one of those things most of the westerners dont get: as soon as USSR broke down, buzzards followed and took everything they could from the beast of the east while it was at its weakest, and used bad semantics such as "promised to USSR, not to Russia" to basically do whatever they pleased. A bit like what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

The cold war I is over, but the hate is still strong and nothing seems to stop cold war II from starting, *if everyone keep being autistic*.

Why is that a piss poor excuse? Because you feel like that?

Why should a sovereign state be limited by what former USSR wants or does not want?

Wait... you do not understand, why there is hate towards putlers russia when its acting like a child who lost a toy, which was never his, but instead another child? Former colonies of France ask for their military intervention to help curb armed thugs roving in their territories and thats fine. Former russian collonies have roving russian armed forces in them, even though they ask NOT to come.

Ukraine had a pupped president, which it ousted. Poor Ukraine having it.
Ukraine had part of it annexed in a sham referendum. Poor Ukraine.
Ukraine has parts of it being ravaged by a civil war, which was caused by putlers propaganda machine, direct military support for the separatists and now - direct military interventions (even if small scale).

And the victim is... SHOCKING NEWS: RUSSIA, its interests must be protected.

Let me be very clear. FUCK. THIS. SHIT. Unfortunately until russia gets put in place by Ukrainian blood and internal crisis hopefully caused by sanctions - its not going to learn. There was an agreement, which kind of settled things between russia and Ukraine once. It was called Budapest Memorandum. Russia wiped its barrels with copies of the said agreement, and with few which were written afterwards too. Yet you still insist, that there is a new agreement, to which russia will somehow magically abide... Well... I don't believe there is one, especially if interests and wishes of Ukraine are to be taken into account instead of being ignored as russia wishes.

[Anuran]

That is such nonsensical assburgers. We can basically stamp USA on everything that ever happened and claim it was "due to their enourmous dept". What kind of bullshit logic to you think the world works on son? Myyybe it is true. But you have to admit, you sound like a utter moron when you say it out loud. "USA intervened in Ukraine to start WW3 in russia cause they are in a gigantic dept, dept in which they basically own the majorty to themselves". Seriuslly. Say that shit out loud somewhere and noone will ever take you seriusly again. Thats dumb assuptions and connections made on Illuminati level as in:" We cant prove shit, but I can clearly connect the dots since im such a visionary and others are blind." One thing that conspiracyidiots never seem to figure out that some unpopular ideas are unpopular for a reason. I have sillyass assumptions like this myself, but I keep it to myself like majority of people. Cause this is still basically shooting in the dark. Hardly factual at all. Everyone can connect the dots mate, but for every person the shape is different.

"nonsensical assburgers", "bullshit logic", "utter moron", "Say that shit out loud somewhere and noone will ever take you seriusly again", "dumb assum[p]tions", "conspiracyidiot"

This just sounds like an "utter moron" to you (and some others)! You know what? If you just want to insult me, then shut it. Sorry to be so rude, but I hate “discussing” with someone who just insults me because I have a completely different view on things. Is it forbidden to question things now?? If you insult me, then you have to be able to correct me easily! My opinion can be called a conspiracy theory, yes. But the term “conspiracy theorist” is no insult at all.

(click to show/hide)

Conspiracy = a group of people working together secretly (maybe also illegally or illegitimately) to achieve something

Theory = model of the reality, based on observations, indicators or prognosis

Example: When parents talk about Santa to their children, it’s a conspiracy. Of course no illegal or illegitimate one, but it’s in fact collectively and secretly. Now what if the children doubt that Santa exists? They question their parents’ conspiracy. So they have a theory about their conspiracy and the children can be called conspiracy theorists. And for these children, it’s actually a compliment.

Another example: If prices at gas stations increase comprehensively shortly before holidays, and you think that oil companies deliberately want to maximize their profits, you would be a conspiracy theorist.

=> There are many “conspiracy theories” in our everyday life, but we usually don’t notice them. Only if you think about it. 

I don’t think my logic is “bullshit logic” or “dumb”, I think, it’s just unusual for you.  (Just take a look on the short definition, if you haven’t yet)
I know that I am not taken seriously, but just because it is that different, I noticed that already.
When I entered this discussion, I honestly never expected to have to defend my opinion that much…

@Kafein
Thanks for posting these links. But there are still difficulties. In the English wiki entry it says the following:

Mikhail Gorbachev reportedly agreed to allow German reunification within NATO after being promised that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east."[3]

In the german wiki entry there is an interview named as a source. An interview between a journalist and Gorbachev to the time of the german reunification. I can quote the relevant part:

Journalist: Did Germany keep its word?

Gorbachev: Yes, the Germans fulfilled all arrangements very precisely and have handled our troops very respectfully. But there is still an outstanding score. [kind of a problem]

Journalist: What do you mean?

Gorbachev: Kohl, the foreign minister of the US James Baker and others assured me that the NATO won't move one inch to the east. The Americans broke their word and the Germans were indifferent. Maybe they even rubbed their hands for how well they pulled the Russians over the barrel. What was it good for? Only, that the Russians can't trust western promises anymore.

Source: http://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html

@All
I spoke about “Monday Demonstrations” in my last post. Here you can see two (English subtitles):

(click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LscC-H7F1eE

(click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9YLYh6jrQQ

[Thomek]

Its one of those things most of the westerners dont get: as soon as USSR broke down, buzzards followed and took everything they could from the beast of the east while it was at its weakest.

This is true. It is also true that Russians approved of the disastrous shock doctrine. But it is also just a small small part of the story. Russians themselves easily managed to steal most of value from their own country. And before that the SU had rotted on its own feet. The ship was already sinking when it fell. Not even CIA had a clue it would happen. Just go there, and it will be clear as day why it happened. It's still corrupt and inefficient like hell. And I'm one of those who thinks the oligarchs should have their assets taken back to the state. All of them, including Khodorkovsky! (I probably sound like a Babusjka!)

.....

In today's Russia such excuses serve no other purpose but to excuse those in power for the mess they are in. Russia needs real law and order, a strong but aggressively anti-corruption president, and free media. Russia is not Iraq or Afghanistan, they have an intelligent population that can read and write. It's just that it's not beneficial at all to voice your opinion. IMO they are ready for a gradual transition to a real democracy. Though it will be painful for many many people who have abused their power..

[Kafein]

@Kafein
Thanks for posting these links. But there are still difficulties. In the English wiki entry it says the following:

Mikhail Gorbachev reportedly agreed to allow German reunification within NATO after being promised that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east."[3]

Oh that's so cute. You intentionally misquote in order to obtain a completely warped view of the situation. Here's what follows immediately after that sentence:

However Mark Kramer, director of the Cold War Studies Project at Harvard University, has explained in detail that that “pledge” is a myth, that the agreement was limited strictly to troop deployments inside a possible unified Germany, and points out that NATO enlargement to the east, beyond Germany had not even been imagined at the time.

You should send your résumé to RT.

[Butan]

In today's Russia such excuses serve no other purpose but to excuse those in power for the mess they are in.

Touché! But except if we see an honest to goodness benevolent ruler who are tolerant and accepting to their worst enemies, Russian leaders will always be led to use such "excuses" to boost their own domestic policies, such is the tribute left from the past. And they will not be completely lying even.

History is a great tool to both analyze the present and the future, or to misinterpret it to your own benefit.

[Kuujis]

A report about a column appearing from nowhere:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/us-ukraine-crisis-novoazovsk-exclusive-idUSKBN0GQ19U20140826

I keep asking myself - what other country says "we do not support guys who are fighting a war in a neighboring country", but keeps missing the damn IFV and tanks crossing the border into the said region all the time... I... am... at a loss.

[Tibe]

I don’t think my logic is “bullshit logic” or “dumb”, I think, it’s just unusual for you.  (Just take a look on the short definition, if you haven’t yet)
I know that I am not taken seriously, but just because it is that different, I noticed that already.
When I entered this discussion, I honestly never expected to have to defend my opinion that much…

You are not taken seriously because your logic is farfetched. It lacks any actual backing, eventhou you think you have the evidence. I can assume a lot of things too. I can put many evidence together aswell and make a very plausible story, might it be about NATO, USA, Russia, whatever, but I dont consider my own stupid farfetched assumptions as somekind of actual leverage in a discussion. Cause its not. Its kinda like these:

(click to show/hide)

Your logic atm is basically same is if I said that somehow China is the real puppetmaster behind all of it and is planning to draw NATO to attack Russia so China can attack Siberia at Russias weak state and claim itself more land, which is desperately needs. Sounds silly yet somewhat plausible doesnt it? Would you say something like that in a serius conversation? Think I dont have enough evidence? Give me some time and I could even find enough cases to make it convincing.

[Vovka]

just as an example. Side A was surrounded by  B. Party A wants to live, and offer to side B all their weapons in exchange for passage to the territory of "neutral state of russia XD" (an allusion to the surrendered 500 + military, do you think how much they have left behind)

I think for a couple of days, we will know the answer
https://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdnr-news.com%2Fdnr%2F2735-premer-ministr-dnr-predlozhil-okruzhennym-ukrainskim-silovikam-sdatsya.html

[Tovi]

As Kiev forces retreat toward Mariupol and suffer heavy losses in the north, a cease fire seems possible.

Ukraine army cannot attack anymore but rebels are not strong enough to counter strike. So the front is frozen for weeks now. Russians just need to wait the collapse of the country when winter will come.

[Murmillus_Prime]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/nato-east-european-bases-counter-russian-threat

Well that's surely not going to stir the hornets nest is it?

Talking about agendas and plans Thomek, I think you under-estimate the scheming that goes on behind closed doors, in meetings such as Bilderberg and others. Yes I understand that in many circumstances politicians have appeared to act and react to situations for partisan political reasons or to save their own asses, but the majority of political issues in the West and the political focuses by the media are only skin deep as far as politics go, and in fact have no real impact on the overall governments strategy worldwide which is where the political decisions have a meaningful impact on the future of the world.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that at least in the U.K, and in France and probably most European states that no matter which one of the two electable parties are elected, they both appear to be as reckless as each other when it comes to geopolitics and military adventurism. On the surface it appears military interventions in the Middle-East by the West have failed, that's if you view the objective of the interventions as humanitarian or for democracy the purported objectives stated by our governments and militaries.. But all too often we find that our politicians say they want one thing and behind closed doors actually want another, and I don't believe purported geopolitical/militaristic objectives are any different in this respect. Sometimes I shake my head in disbelief that peoples whom eagerly and naively  support their governments geopolitical strategy oppose their politicians at home for their endless lying and failure to fulfil their promises. People really are prepared to believe the liars who rule their nation when the liars who rule their nation tell them how the rest of the world works but can't trust the very same people to run their own nation?

Some independent experts state that the Wests real agenda in the Middle-East is to simply turn it into a hotbed of chaos, bloodshed and destruction, if this is their true agenda then they have done very well to fulfil it so far. Numerous times, American, British, Zionist supporting governments have had their politicians in various speeches speak of a new world order, and one can only bring about new world order by first removing the old world order, and what better way then descending whole regions into chaos and in-fighting, playing off sides against each other.

[Butan]

keeps missing the damn IFV and tanks crossing the border into the said region all the time... I... am... at a loss.

At first I read: why does Ukraine army always spot russian soldiers everywhere but keep missing them when doing surveillance/shooting

The only way Ukraine will stop spotting Russian soldiers is for a buffer country to be created between Ukraine and Russia. This way no more chances!

There was an agreement, which kind of settled things between russia and Ukraine once. It was called Budapest Memorandum.

Russia signed such agreement with stable russian-friendly pre-civil war Ukraine, not with war ridden unstable anti-russian Ukraine!..


visitors can't see pics , please register or login