Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DaveUKR]

at the same moment when it no longer be profitable  visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Busted!
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[Molly]

I guess you werent in this thread when soon after Maidan success, videos of pro-russians/russians being beaten/killed in the streets, in the newly liberated pro-EU zone, during the first counter maidan unrests, happened and were recorded and posted/commented here.
Both sides have been at it, noone is white, noone is black.

And Amnesty internation is mainstream indeed. "Hundreds of people have been abducted in the last 3 months." No shit, its a civil war, there is thousands of deads already, and they take the time to create a report that attest that one side is doing abductions (insinuating no pro-rus ever got abducted), and 2 interviews of guys with bruises on their faces and burns on their arms/legs? Really blowing my mind...
Not a "wrong" report per say, I believe abductions happened, but close to propaganda in its presentation and "time table".
[...]

As expected: creditable source doesn't fit "oh-so-informed" view and is discredited by "Old news, also hurd durrr war"...

[Kuujis]

I guess you werent in this thread when soon after Maidan success, videos of pro-russians/russians being beaten/killed in the streets, in the newly liberated pro-EU zone, during the first counter maidan unrests, happened and were recorded and posted/commented here.
Both sides have been at it, noone is white, noone is black.

And Amnesty internation is mainstream indeed. "Hundreds of people have been abducted in the last 3 months." No shit, its a civil war, there is thousands of deads already, and they take the time to create a report that attest that one side is doing abductions (insinuating no pro-rus ever got abducted), and 2 interviews of guys with bruises on their faces and burns on their arms/legs? Really blowing my mind...
Not a "wrong" report per say, I believe abductions happened, but close to propaganda in its presentation and "time table"...

Let me finish this for you: ... and because it does not fit what putlers propaganda tells me. Did I do it rite?
Also - you have something against Amnesty International? They have some hidden agenda.... Ohhh.... I see.... The A... is a
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Not day and night, but they are indeed bombarding civilians areas. Or do you insist that the separatists only take refuge in industrial/military zone? Of course if the Ukrainian army is using bombs against them, they are bombing civilians areas too, and Serr himself said that the cities that the rebels withdrew from are ruins now. You dont have to go very far on the internet to check a few casualty lists: bystanders have been killed and not only by stray russian bullets...
Its one of the inevitable effect of a outgunned rebellion, using guerrilla warfare in urban areas.

Lets get on the same scale, ok? IF as you say civilian areas were bombed EVEN REMOTELY harshly as was Grozno - civilian casualties would be in thousands if not tens of thousands, instead of 500 during a period of what? 3 months now? So cut it with the crap of bombed towns. There ARE some casualties, this is not deniable, but the source and "authors" of those is ANYTHING but clear, while in your mind it somehow is "evil Kiev regime is bombing civilians in towns and leaving ruins". You want to see how ruins look like? Look it up how Grozno looked affter 1999 offensive and show me similar panorama in the "bombed" towns. There was damage, but IN NO WAY it was similar to what is being claimed. Its simply on a different scale.

So when a civilian dies, its the work of poorly trained ukrainian separatists using mismatched weapons, but when a ukrainian plane carrying personel is shot down, its the work of highly trained russian elite soldiers equipped with russian top gear?
Get your shit together.

You are comparing one event with a continuous events, which is BS in itself, but I digress, my train-wreck of thought was flawed in this case. There is a bunch of reports about 5 mines being launched towards blocking posts and then immitation of "return fire" towards civilian areas. On the other hand - there was at least ONE burned down GRAD launcher vehicle, which was poorly handled and burned due to that (at least I got this impression from news). So I guess its more likely, that there is "average" training on both sides and only Ukrainian army is hitting the civilian areas... Yes, that must be the truth we must trust in. Because putlers "news agencies" say so.

[Tovi]

Amnesty International is very rich. Main donators :

John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation
Oak Foundation
Open Society Georgia Foundation (= George Soros, wich fund all "Orange revolutions")
The Vanguard Charitable Endowment Programme
Mauro Tunes and American Jewish World Service.
Governance and Transparency Fund (UK)
EuropeAid (European Union)
Total

This NGO have strong links with the United States Department of State. Suzanne Nossel, his CEO comes directly from the Department of State, for exemple.

Just to say.

[Butan]

I'm not saying the amnesty report is not true, its even pretty obvious its true, but its very strange that they found only ukrainians hurt by separatists, and nothing else, right as of today.


Kuujis, you used the Grozny example, not me, so why are you screaming? I never pretended to compare the two.

There is way less combattants pitted against each other in Ukraine, and way less population involved, else the figures would be closer, but except for this, I said nothing on your comparison.

[Kuujis]

I'm not saying the amnesty report is not true, its even pretty obvious its true, but its very strange that they found only ukrainians hurt by separatists, and nothing else, right as of today.


Kuujis, you used the Grozny example, not me, so why are you screaming? I never pretended to compare the two.

There is way less combattants pitted against each other in Ukraine, and way less population involved, else the figures would be closer, but except for this, I said nothing on your comparison.

Oh... I'm sorry, lets see facts, shall we?

Chechnya - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
Population (2010 Census)[8]
 - Total    1,268,989
Population (January 2014 est.)
 - Total    1,346,500[10]

Donetsk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ukraine
Oblast (Province)    Indigenous name    Area in km2    Population at
2001 Census    Population at
2012 Estimate
Donetsk    Донецька Область    26,517    4,825,563    4,403,178
Luhans    Луганська Область    26,683    2,546,178    2,272,676

As to combatantants - I definitely agree, that scale is different, but look at the casualties of war when neither side gives a fuck about civilians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War and then see how current deployments in Ukraine look like. Your ignorance is bliss I guess.

And fuck your "not said anything", you never do. Only spout random BS and then "I did not say anything". "Not day and night, but they are indeed bombarding civilians areas." my ass. If those "bombings" were on a even remotely comparable scale, which is what you need in order to affect fighters entrenched in populated towns - you would see THOUSANDS dead, now there are 500 (mind you, still to much for my tastes). Even if they would do this only on "agreed hours" instead of night and day. Misses and unfortunate shit in warzone - thats happening. Intentional bombing of civilian areas is not.

Amnesty International is very rich. Main donators :

(click to show/hide)

John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation
Oak Foundation
Open Society Georgia Foundation (= George Soros, wich fund all "Orange revolutions")
The Vanguard Charitable Endowment Programme
Mauro Tunes and American Jewish World Service.
Governance and Transparency Fund (UK)
EuropeAid (European Union)
Total

This NGO is have strong links with the United States Department of State. Suzanne Nossel, his CEO comes directly from the Department of State, for exemple.

Just to say.

The saying is "just saying". Just saying
Also - man.... you FORGOT THE A! Definite NWO agents.

[Tovi]

I don't know what NWO is. I just know Imperialism as usual.

Anyway, Russia has declared a state of emergency in six provinces (the Oblasts of Rostov, Volgograd, and Astrakhan, the Krai of Stavropol, the Republic of Kalmykia and the city of Sebastopol) in the face of the acute influx of refugees.

Since the uprising of the Ukrainian Donbass and repression, 480,000 people have fled to Russia, where 20,451 have applied for political asylum.

[Vovka]

I don't know what NWO is. I just know Imperialism as usual.

Anyway, Russia has declared a state of emergency in six provinces (the Oblasts of Rostov, Volgograd, and Astrakhan, the Krai of Stavropol, the Republic of Kalmykia and the city of Sebastopol) in the face of the acute influx of refugees.

Since the uprising of the Ukrainian Donbass and repression, 480,000 people have fled to Russia, where 20,451 have applied for political asylum.

New world order!
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[Tovi]

Well, ok, I still don't get it 

I thought it was this

But I'm getting old.

[Butan]

Chechnya - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
Population (2010 Census)[8]
 - Total    1,268,989
Population (January 2014 est.)
 - Total    1,346,500[10]

Donetsk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ukraine
Oblast (Province)    Indigenous name    Area in km2    Population at
2001 Census    Population at
2012 Estimate
Donetsk    Донецька Область    26,517    4,825,563    4,403,178
Luhans    Луганська Область    26,683    2,546,178    2,272,676

You are using the total population of Chechnya, not just Grozny.
And for the Ukraine, you are using the total population of the Oblasts, which are named by their administrative center. Luhans and Donetsk are both under a million unhabitants.

"Not day and night, but they are indeed bombarding civilians areas." my ass. If those "bombings" were on a even remotely comparable scale, which is what you need in order to affect fighters entrenched in populated towns - you would see THOUSANDS dead, now there are 500 (mind you, still to much for my tastes). Even if they would do this only on "agreed hours" instead of night and day. Misses and unfortunate shit in warzone - thats happening. Intentional bombing of civilian areas is not.

Pray tell where the bombings happened then, since the fighters are using civilians areas as their bases? And your source on the 500 civilians casualties? Wait for the fog-of-war to settle, before underwhelming reports 




Btw, retracting what I said on the Amnesty report, they had a final paragraph where they also reported abductions from pro-Kiev forces. Less numerous they said, but its good to hear a casual and honest report

[DaveUKR]

The leader of separatists confesses that he is a colonel of FSB in reserve (since 31st of March I didn't get 2013 or 2014 year, most likely 2013), also fought in Bosnia for 5 months (and other conflicts).

[Kuujis]

You are using the total population of Chechnya, not just Grozny.
And for the Ukraine, you are using the total population of the Oblasts, which are named by their administrative center. Luhans and Donetsk are both under a million unhabitants.

Oh you want totals for whole Chechnya conflict? You sure? Because those 500 I mentioned were a total for whole conflict you know. Once again - the way Ukraine is dealing with civilians is incomparable to how you and putlers media portray them. And that is becoming beyond ridiculous.
Btw - separatist forces are estimated to be around 10k (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28209170 before you ask), so that's quite comparable to what Chechnya had.

Pray tell where the bombings happened then, since the fighters are using civilians areas as their bases? And your source on the 500 civilians casualties? Wait for the fog-of-war to settle, before underwhelming reports 

Assuming, that those bombings of civilian areas HAPPENED on the scale you imagine - they happened in areas, which civilians were wise enough to evacuate, once the separatists fighters started moving in.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-report-details-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=1
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/213010.html

Btw, retracting what I said on the Amnesty report, they had a final paragraph where they also reported abductions from pro-Kiev forces. Less numerous they said, but its good to hear a casual and honest report

They must be bought. Just ask Tovi. He knows them to be NWO bought imperialist agents. As to shit being conducted by both sides - in whole sincerity - I would not expect it to be otherwise, even if that was NOT what I wished for.

[Osiris]

http://news.sky.com/story/1300160/putin-tells-britain-to-resolve-falklands-row

Vladimir Putin has waded into the Falkland Islands row, telling Britain it must sit down with Argentina for fresh talks to resolve the dispute.

The Russian president, who has faced international criticism over the annexation of Crimea and continuing tensions on the Ukraine border, said his country supported "the necessity" to find a solution to the 200-year-old feud.

Putin comparing the vote in crimea to the vote in the falklands O.o

[Tovi]

Oh you want totals for whole Chechnya conflict? You sure? Because those 500 I mentioned were a total for whole conflict you know. Once again - the way Ukraine is dealing with civilians is incomparable to how you and putlers media portray them. And that is becoming beyond ridiculous.
Btw - separatist forces are estimated to be around 10k (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28209170 before you ask), so that's quite comparable to what Chechnya had.
Assuming, that those bombings of civilian areas HAPPENED on the scale you imagine - they happened in areas, which civilians were wise enough to evacuate, once the separatists fighters started moving in.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-report-details-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=1
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/213010.html
They must be bought. Just ask Tovi. He knows them to be NWO bought imperialist agents. As to shit being conducted by both sides - in whole sincerity - I would not expect it to be otherwise, even if that was NOT what I wished for.

The fact they serve US foreign policy doesn't mean they always lie. It's like Peace Nobel Prices, they are like "semi-independant"...

[Kuujis]

The fact they serve US foreign policy doesn't mean they always lie. It's like Peace Nobel Prices, they are like "semi-independant"...

I see...
Someone is saying the truth I dont like -> they lie -> they are servants of US -> they serve NWO.

Can I interest you in some tinfoil? For your hat. Extra stronk!