Dagger and Long Dagger

[Casimir]

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I always carry a Long Dagger with me, with a shield though. It's great for slicing up archers who wait for you to switch to your 2h and shotgun, doesn't weigh anything, looks good and its damage and speed ensures they don't get away.

Main problem I have with making it able to block is that people would just use it for the same reason they use the scims and that black 1h mace; it's so small it's really hard to see.

Long dagger is OP, real men use Dagger.

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Hmm, do you really beleive that such thingy as great maul with 9 kg weight exist?
If you insist that this is realism discussion mate.

Well yes.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/505522-maul

Maybe not 9 KG but definatly very heavy mauls that would be impossible to block with a dagger. 

Even if that kind of weapon didn't exist, it'd be next to impossible to block a large two handed weapon such as a greatsword or even heavier maces with any light weapon such as these dagger, unless you were truly a skilled solider.  Hence the chamber block.

[Cup1d]

Nah Casimir, you don't need heavy maul to drive in stakes. You even don't need heavy maul to drive in pobedit's slip-hook into hard stone (I've got some experience in alpinism).
Also you do not need heavy maul in smithy. So our Great Maul is science fiction weapon. Doubt that someone can find any kinf of real melee weapon with this weight.

One place where you need really heavy maul - it's stone quarry.


Now about blocking big sword
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more here:
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Flos_Duellatorum_(Pisani-Dossi_MS)

and here
http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Florius_de_Arte_Luctandi_(MS_Latin_11269)

and here
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Ludwig_VI_von_Eyb

I can find another sources if you want. But I think that's enough

[BlindGuy]

i used to have warbow and maul....slots....grrrr

[MoonMan]

I say add 5 more points to the thrust damage, keep the no blocking as you can chamber.

[Casimir]

Unfortunately you seem to have taken a focus of sources from the 16th century and not really taken in the wider time period as a whole...

While parying and defending yourself against a greatsword is possible with a dagger while fencing or in a martial art form, on the battlefield it is far less practical.

There are many reference to exceptionally heavy mallets and hammers being used throughout the early medieval period.  It is hard to question whether these kinds of easy to produce, heavy weapons were used or not.  levied militias in town would have armed themselves with whatever to hand and its more than plausible that masons, carpenters or smiths would have used weapons that outweighed a dagger by five times its weight.

Questioning my opinion of game balance and sense of realism within a game is one thing, but referencing a wiki and claiming that its gospel is something else.  its an accepted fact, drawn from several primary sources and confirmed by bibliographic and archaeological research that heavy warhammers, similar to modern day sledgehammers were used  during medieval warfare.

A dagger simple couldn't straight block one of these weapons, why would you argue it was the case.

[Zaren]

Again, it's completely possible to block with daggers. For example:

http://youtu.be/P-mQtis2IiU?t=28s

Notice how he's comfortably able to block with the knife, despite its small size (especially compared to medieval daggers, which were quite large). In fact, one of the primary uses of the dagger was to allow a smallsword user to block with his off hand.

This may be less practical against heavier weapons, but there is already a mechanic in place to simulate that, isn't there? When blocking a greatsword, for example, the dagger's low weight would leave you stunlocked and unable to immediately retaliate. Heck, if you wanted you could even add crushthrough vs. daggers on weapons above a certain weight (maybe?)

I already said in the OP that I don't expect them to be amazing - just useful. The other small 0-slot weapons can block, why can't the daggers? I understand that it's possible to parry with them and 'block' that way, but that's not much of a consolation. You can do the same with your fists, and I don't see many people getting punching kills either. If the ability to block would make them overpowered, compensate by making them slower or weaker, in addition to having a very short range.

Also, I dislike the idea of giving them a backstab bonus. It would be a fun feature, but very unrealistic. Daggers weren't really used as an 'assassination' weapon, or if they were it was only because they could be easily concealed. Rather, they were used in direct confrontations to deliver superficial cuts and lethal stabs, especially vs. grounded opponents (like a downed knight or an enemy that you're wrestling with).

all that video showed was a man blocking a VERY light fencing weapon. Not only that but there are rules in fencing unlike in a real fight. If I came at you with lets say a HUGE Greatsword, and you attempted to block me with a small dagger my sword would go through your block(its math, weight and gravity vs your small ONEHANDED weapon) and would continue into your head/side/chest ect. It is possible for you to block lets say an Espada), but you would have ABSOLUTELY no chance against any of the following(just a few examples but you could block few of the CRPG weapons with a dagger)
-morning star
-greatsword
-hand and a half sword(longsword, HBS, ect)
-flamberg
actually any weapon swung with the entire body(both hands in an overhead motion)
I do however agree that you could avoid the hit in real life by grabbing the weapon with your freehand(if it was a morning star or a mace of some type as a sword would cut your hand) but in CRPG you cant do that.

[SirProto]

I'd love to see you block a sideswing from a great maul with your cinquendea or  flamed dagger...

Come on this is realism discussion mate!

but you can block that with a tiny hammer or a hatchet 

[Cup1d]

Unfortunately you seem to have taken a focus of sources from the 16th century and not really taken in the wider time period as a whole...

While parying and defending yourself against a greatsword is possible with a dagger while fencing or in a martial art form, on the battlefield it is far less practical.

There are many reference to exceptionally heavy mallets and hammers being used throughout the early medieval period.  It is hard to question whether these kinds of easy to produce, heavy weapons were used or not.  levied militias in town would have armed themselves with whatever to hand and its more than plausible that masons, carpenters or smiths would have used weapons that outweighed a dagger by five times its weight.

Questioning my opinion of game balance and sense of realism within a game is one thing, but referencing a wiki and claiming that its gospel is something else.  its an accepted fact, drawn from several primary sources and confirmed by bibliographic and archaeological research that heavy warhammers, similar to modern day sledgehammers were used  during medieval warfare.

A dagger simple couldn't straight block one of these weapons, why would you argue it was the case.

Your «Realism» argument - dagger can't block Great maul swings.
My «Realism» argument - such weapon as Great maul do not exist. Even more - any weapon with 9kg weight have too many drawbacks to be effective. And if weapon not effective - it's not a weapon.

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Unfortunately you seem to have taken a focus of sources from the 16th century and not really taken in the wider time period as a whole

Heh, first book dated around 1405.

I'm referencing to medieval fencing manuals (german, french and italian), and what you are referencing to?

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its an accepted fact, drawn from several primary sources and confirmed by bibliographic and archaeological research that heavy warhammers, similar to modern day sledgehammers were used  during medieval warfare.

So, you are suggesting about warhammer now, not great maul?
But warhammer never weigh 9kg. Standart weight of twohanded warhammer vary between 2.8 and 3,5 kg. Our Bec de Corbin - this is twohanded warhammer.

[Tomas_of_Miles]

Leave dagger block as is. Otherwise you'd have stupid things like daggers blocking flamberges, I don't need RandomDude making excuses.

[Logen]

Unfortunately you seem to have taken a focus of sources from the 16th century

Actually, thats 14th century there.

[Cup1d]

Leave dagger block as is. Otherwise you'd have stupid things like daggers blocking flamberges, I don't need RandomDude making excuses.

Our Flamberge is another science-fiction weapon to be honest. Same with arbalest, heavy crossbow, plated charger, throwing lance.

[Tomas_of_Miles]

Our Flamberge is another science-fiction weapon to be honest. Same with arbalest, heavy crossbow, plated charger, throwing lance.

Weeeell they aren't accurately represented/exaggerated. I can believe wavy edged two handed swords, various forms of the crossbow mechanism,  large warhorses, and large javelins may have existed and been used on a battlefield at some point in history. I'd love to have a new model and animation for the arbalest. Maybe even make it non-sheathable.  xD

[karasu]

Dagger and long dagger are boss, they can block, they have high dmg and speed, ONLY drawback is Holds can dick you as you close, and you have to live in enemies pocket untill he gives up the ghost.

Knife is also nice, and looks like a dirk.

They can't block mate, but who needs to anyway, with 113 speed and chambers. 

[BlindGuy]

Nah Casimir, you don't need heavy maul to drive in stakes. You even don't need heavy maul to drive in pobedit's slip-hook into hard stone (I've got some experience in alpinism).
Also you do not need heavy maul in smithy. So our Great Maul is science fiction weapon. Doubt that someone can find any kinf of real melee weapon with this weight.

One place where you need really heavy maul - it's stone quarry.


Now about blocking big sword
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


more here:
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Flos_Duellatorum_(Pisani-Dossi_MS)

and here
http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Florius_de_Arte_Luctandi_(MS_Latin_11269)

and here
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Ludwig_VI_von_Eyb

I can find another sources if you want. But I think that's enough

THATS SO STUPID:

1: Medieval wooden stake, made hastily before battle to stop some cav is not modern steel. Your "alpinism" has ZERO application.

2. You combat guide drawings are GREAT, I always grapple ppl in crpg...WAIT YOU CANT. So lets go with: chamber block, its hardish to do vs good player, and nicely simulates the difficulty of grappling an armed man.

Your «Realism» argument - dagger can't block Great maul swings.
My «Realism» argument - such weapon as Great maul do not exist. Even more - any weapon with 9kg weight have too many drawbacks to be effective. And if weapon not effective - it's not a weapon.

Before quoting another post and writing silly shit, READ the post.

They can't block mate, but who needs to anyway, with 113 speed and chambers. 

A chamber-block blocks incoming attack. Its a block. Its not a holdable rightclick block, but if you read, I didn't say it was. Why so many plebs click quote without reading the words they are quoting and trying to understand what they mean?

[Cup1d]

1: Medieval wooden stake, made hastily before battle to stop some cav is not modern steel. Your "alpinism" has ZERO application.

You wanna say that it's soooooo hard to drive in wooden stake in soil or slack?
Of course it's much harder that drive in steel hook into granite cliff.
Have you ever set up a camp? How many great mauls you need to put up a tent?

and IRL if you wanna grapple your opponent, you need at first block or evade his attack (if he has longer weapon).

Please dude, do not make your «funny posts» in realism threads.