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« on: July 01, 2012, 02:46:31 pm »
Note: This text is very long, if you dont want to read it, just dont do that. But please stay away from this topic then, dont post here, dont troll here. I wrote this only for people who are interested in subject, if you are not, then just stay away.
English isnt my native language, I know it from school only, but last English classes I had many years ago, so sorry in advance for any language mistakes.
Many people wrote a lot of things about cav recently. Unfortunately, most of their claims are lies. You can read opinions how easy mode lancer cav is, how good every newbie is as cav and how hard infantry life is with horseman around. Most of those people are of course cav experts, because they played lancer for 5 minutes with their alts and they made 20:0 K/D ratio at lvl 10 with 0 PS, thanks to couching. So I decided to write my feelings, how it is to be lancer cav, because with all those lies on forum, its really easy to get confused for people who never played this class longer than few days.
Ill start from myself. I played almost every class in cRPG. I played a lot as archer, then few months as crossbowman, few months as infantry (many 2h swords, german poleaxe, great long axe, long war axe), another 2 months as mauler, I also checked thrower and 1h cav. Im playing lancer cav for about 3 months here in cRPG. I also played as lancer in WFAS mod quite often, but there lances are 3.2 meters long (same as longest pikes), so you cant really compare those 2 gameplays (in cRPG longest playable lance has 1.9 m). Yes, there are longer non-trustable lances here in cRPG, but they are basically useless for pure lancer.
Im using heavy gear (Coat of Plates +3, Plate Mittens +3, Plate Boots +3, Sallet with Visor and Coif +3), so Im very well protected (63 head armor, 68 body armor, 64 leg armor). My current horse is Destrier +3. As main weapon Im using Heavy Lance +3, as secondary weapon (on the ground) Long War Axe +3. My max upkeep is 5644 gold, which is a lot, Im losing about 10-20k gold for every hour of playing (but all depends here from my multi and luck). Even with x5 multi I dont gain any money, so this class is costly, at least with heavy gear Im using. You can ask why Im using such a heavy gear. The answer is simple I dont want to be 1 hit-killed from ranged. With Light Kuyak +3 (which I used before), arbalester could kill me from just 1 bolt, thanks to speed of riding. And thats something most people forgets. Many people who tests how hard is to kill a horse/rider forgets about speed factor. Horses arent stationary targets, you shouldnt test anything this way!
From my experience, Destrier +3 charging target at full speed, close range, dies from:
- 1-2 bolts into head (1 bolt takes about 85-100% of its hp) Arbalest +3, Steel Bolts +3
- 2-3 bolts into body (3 most of the time, but 2 bolts wont leave much hp of the horse) Arbalest +3, Steel Bolts +3
- 2-3 arrows into head (2 most of the time) Long Bow/Rus Bow +3, Bodkin Arrows +3
- 4-5 arrows into body Long Bow/Rus Bow +3, Bodkin Arrows +3
Destrier is average armored horse with quite a lot of HP. I played with Courser +3 and Arabian Warhorse +3 earlier, but it was much easier to kill them for enemy. Even from greater distance, just one bolt to their head, sometimes even one arrow was enough. Thats why I dont play them anymore, its too easy to lose those horses. And if you lose your horse, most of the time you are dead, because very often you ends up alone near big group of enemies.
In cRPG lancer isnt, like many people thinks, tanker who fears nothing except pikes. Its not even close to that. Lancer is more like backstabbing class. You can kill unaware enemies from behind, and thats where you are making most of your kills. About 75% of my kills are done this way. Another 25% are aware peasants, other horseman, aware ranged, and then aware infantry. Because of riding speed, cavalry takes down easiest targets after battle starts, thats how you can make a lot of kills and make good K/D ratio (my current K/D ratio is 3.5:1, but this is reskilled char, so I didnt have to level it). When you meet peasant on your way, you can even bump him to death. Some people says its lame to do that, but I saw many times few fully armored infantry chasing down peasant for few hundred meters and when they finally caught him, they starts to spam swings, often wounding themselves just to kill that peasant - somehow, this is completely fine in infantry minds. For me kill is kill. If I have a choice to couch unaware peasant or other unaware target, Ill always choose the other target. But I dont see a reason to abandon easy to kill targets (peasants) and leave them for others.
Like I said before, cav are backstabbers in cRPG. Its not because cav is lazy, they are forced to do that because of how cRPG works. In fact lancer is weak class, which has low chances to kill aware opponent. Thats why hunting down unaware targets, which are close to no threat for you, perfectly makes sense here. Because of horse speed, we can choose our next target, leave harder ones and attack easiest. The problem is, when we kill easiest targets (make plenty of kills that way), infantry see cav topping scoreboard and starts to cry how OP cav is. You really shouldnt judge class strength this way. If cav kills almost all peasants every round, it gives them few kills more in stats, and same time takes those easy kills from others.
Many people will ask then, how easy is to kill aware opponent for lancer? Well, its in fact very, very hard thing to do if the target wont make any mistakes. There are 2 tricks which can help you to kill aware targets:
Trick1: you can force ready to strike opponent to release left mouse button too early/too late by controlling your horse speed, Arabian Warhorse is far best horse to use this trick. Other horses I tried feels a bit too heavy to benefit from this trick.
Trick2: you can try to hit enemy at max possible lance angle, turning just in front of him, but this is very risky (you need to be millimeter precise) and it works mainly with standing targets (or moving forward, but its harder to get it right even then). If you miss your target this way because you turned too fast and have now too little lance angle (very, very often it ends up like that), enemy will most of the time hit your horse to the side/back, but you can ride away. If you turn too late, then enemy will hit your horses head and stop it (or deal huge damage to it). Then you are basically screwed, so its always better to turn a bit quicker and miss than too late and die. This trick needs perfect timing and even then dont guarantee success.
Killing peasant: you need to watch peasant weapon here. If he uses Pitchfork or Scythe, he can still wound/kill your horse easily, no matter he is a peasant! But even if he uses one of those weapons, you can try using Trick2 here. If you turn too late and he stops your horse, you can still kill him with your lance. Peasant is a target always worth a risk (you wont find aware opponent which is easier to kill than a peasant). If peasant uses some 1h weapon, Im charging it straight away with regular lance attack ready. But you can kill peasant even with 1-2 bumps, you dont really need to lance him.
My advice: Charge!
Killing horse lancer: I can say obvious thing here. Its risky! In my opinion too risky to do it after game starts. Hits are based by what server sees, not what you sees, so because of closing horses speed, sometimes I see I did everything perfectly, but server says that enemy just killed me, which is a bit depressing. I can still kill more lancers than I dies this way, but even with 60:40 ratio, its just too risky for me. So Im trying to avoid other lancers, especially at the beginning of the round. I have plenty easier targets on the ground to take care of in this time.
My advice: Avoid if you can!
Killing 1h horseman: you need to use couch here and take down their horses. If they are aware of you and manage to stop your horse, there is nothing you can do. In close combat you are sitting duck for them! You can block their swings, but they will still hit your horse and eventually kill it through your blocks. They can sometimes kill your horse from just one Arabian Cavalry Swords swing to your horses head. Because of their shields forcefield, you cant kill them from frontal attack or from the side. Sometimes those shields can even protect them from a lance into their back, which is a just silly. Its better to avoid them if they are aware of you, if not, use couch and try to hit horse from side. In worst case scenario you will destroy their shield, but should be able to run away. Regular lance attack will most likely end up at their shield, making them no harm at all. Fortunately there are not that many good 1h cav (at least on EU servers). You can try to attack aware 1h cav which uses low turning speed horses, but avoid Arabian Warhorses! They turns too quickly, you wont be able to ride away before they hit you back.
My advice: Avoid!
Killing pikeman/long spearman: basically impossible. I managed to kill few of them only because they didnt release left mouse button in time. This is the only way to kill them, their own, huge mistake. Surprisingly, they dont do much damage to horses most of the time. You can sometimes lose just 1/3rd of your horse hp by being stopped by pikeman, and then just ride away (many depends here from yours and pikeman position). You have to avoid them of course, especially if they have some regular infantry near them pikeman will stop your horse, and regular infantry will finish you quickly.
My advice: Avoid!
Killing short spear/lancer on the ground: very hard to do. Its possible, but target need to release left mouse button too soon (and bounce or miss) or too late. You can use here Trick1 and Trick2, but its very risky stuff which will almost always end up with your death, especially if enemy jump while making attack. Its just no sense to risk if the guy isnt last man standing.
My advice: Avoid!
Killing 2h swordsman: its very similar to killing short spear/lancer on the ground, very hard to do. But in fact, two handed swords are even more deadly (because of damage they deal and their thrust range). If 2h swordsman is standing still or moving forward, you can try to use Trick2, but most of them jumps/move sideways. Then I assure you, almost always you wont be able to react/predict things right and you will easily die. So, its possible to kill 2h swordsman (at least stationary ones), but there is little chance to do everything exactly right, and you still need a lot of luck better avoid them as much as you can. I cant really understand how 2h swordsman can be more deadly to horses than even pikeman.
My advice: Avoid!
Killing poleaxe user: surprisingly (or maybe not?), its easier to kill poleaxe user who tries to stab than 2h swordsman. Their weapons has shorter stabs, so you can use Trick2 with a bit higher success rate (you can be slightly less precise with timing and still win). Unfortunately, they can also jump to the side and attack opposite direction same time, and because of weapon length and its damage, this attack can be deadly. Similar as with 2h swordsman, if poleaxe player jump, you probably wont be able to react/predict things right and you will die. Thats why its very risky and not worth trying to kill poleaxe user if you have other (easier or unaware) targets alive.
My advice: Avoid!
Killing axe user/mauler (no thrust weapon user): its risky, as he can jump to side and make opposite swing same time, but you can use your horse as weapon and increase your chances. If you guess right the side of his jump, you can kill him, if you was close to guess you will most likely bump him. If you wont bump or hit him, you are most likely dead (those weapons are deadly with 47-48 damage and speed bonus from your horse). Its so much easier here to kill heavy armored targets (like maulers). I often risk couch when I see heavy armor + non thrusting weapon. If target has light armor, its better to leave it. Especially couching light armored target will almost always be deadly for rider, even if his weapon dont have thrust attack.
My advice: Charge only heavily armored ones!
Killing 1h shielder: very similar to killing non thrustable weapon user, but it has a bit less risk involved (shorter weapons than axes). You need to get ready for your target jump to the side and make attack from opposite direction (they do that most of the time). And again you have to choose side right. If you wont guess right, you can die here. He can also use thrust, so its better not to charge him directly with your horse. If you charge in right way, shielder most of the time wont be able to thrust your horses head. Its easier for shielder to kill you by jump/sidewalk and make swing same time, thats the thing you need to be aware of. If they just jump and block with their shields, Im often trying to couch them and break their shield in next attack. But because of jumping height and sidewalking speed, couching is always much more risky to try, even against shielder.
My advice: Charge mainly heavily armored ones!
Killing crossbowman: if crossbowman is aware of you, its better to just leave him alone. If you decide to charge him, you need to wave your horse a bit and try to force his mistake. If he miss you, you will most likely kill him. If he hit your horses head, horse will probably die (if not, you will probably kill crossbowman), if he hit you, your attack will be cancelled, and you will lose most of your hp (or if you use light armor, you will be dead, because of speed of the horse). Its risky stuff, more time you give for crossbowman to aim you, more likely you will lose this little battle. If I want to attack some crossbowman, Im always waiting for him to shoot other target, then I can charge during his reloading time. They most of the time will spot me then (they are checking terrain while reloading), so they will try to change weapon to melee thats why its worth to try couched attack here. Even if they change weapon, you can still kill them through their block (if you only guess their jumping side right). Everything depends here from distance and moment when crossbowman spot you.
My advice: Avoid!
Killing archer: its sometimes easier than killing crossbowman. Archer has advantage in rate of fire, but he wont be able to kill your horse with just 1 arrow, and cant hold his bow ready to shot forever. You need to be ready to take at least 2 arrows into yourself/your horse (hopefully not your or your horses head). That means, its no sense to attack archer if you, or especially your horse has low hp. With latest horses maneuver nerf, you wont be able to do much in close combat with archer (archer moves faster than your horse turns at the moment). Maybe Arabian Warhorse would still be good enough in this kind of fight, I dont know, I sold my Arabian Warhorse +3 long time ago. I only know, Destrier is now too slow in turning speed to kill experienced archer this way (you could do that easily before horses turning nerf). The problem is, because of instantly changing direction of running, sidewalking, jumping (every problem cRPG physics has), archers will most likely just jump to the side to avoid your horse and start shooting at it again. Im quite good in guessing their jump direction (Im lucky I should say), so many targets I kill are archers. But for every attack on aware archer, you have to pay with some of your and your horses hp. Its always costly to attack archers.
My advice: Avoid those with Long Bows/Rus Bows! Charge the other!
Killing throwers: aware high PT thrower means death for you and your horse. High PT thrower can kill your horse very easily, from just 1 head hit. And when they throw their axe/javelin/lance, another one magically appears in their hand to repeat the attack straight away. Its just suicide to attack them, avoid even if they look in opposite direction! You can however attack low PT throwers, they arent much of a threat. After some time of playing, I can recognize players (by their armors), so more or less I know which throwers I have to avoid like a fire (I learned it hard way). Fortunately, there arent many high PT throwers in game currently.
My advice: Avoid high PT throwers! Charge low PT throwers!
Killing horse archers/horse crossbowmans: terrible! I cant understand why horse archers has same maneuver as other horsemans (they should have decreased maneuver drastically, especially when they are shooting and riding same time). Because of that you will most likely end up with your horse full of arrows. Maybe they dont do much damage, but they can still kill your horse with 6-8 arrows (or 3-4 into your horses head), and you wont be able to do anything to avoid them. Its worst thing to have horse archer on your back and no possible help from your team. You can kill horse archer only when he uses horse +0 (has maneuver and speed disadvantage) or if he make mistake and judge things wrong. But before he do that, your horse will have no hp anyway. Its better to avoid aware horse archers as much as you can. Horse crossbowmans are easier targets (mainly due to reloading time), but its still better not to attack aware ones, especially if they use Arabian Warhorses +3 or Coursers +3. They can ride away pretty easily, and you dont really want to play chasing game with them, since they can hit you from range and not slow down even a bit.
My advice: Avoid!
It will be even harder to kill anyone, who stands on little hill or terrain around him isnt completely flat. You will have big problem to predict speed of your horse, and since you have to release Heavy Lance sooner (Heavy Lance attack speed is very slow), you can completely miss the enemy. Its better to avoid aware enemies standing on changeable terrain.
So, its not that easy to kill aware opponent. In fact you have more chances than the enemy only while killing aware peasants and low athletics, heavily armored shielders. With axemans and great maulers (only slow ones, with heavy armor) chances are pretty even, maybe just slightly higher for horseman. Thats why you will end up most of the time backstabbing unaware opponents. If infantry want to get rid of backstabbing, then make horses actually smash every infantry easily (except pikemans). But right now backstabbing is only option to get kills, and no matter what you think, backstabbing is funny. Im all the time trying to plan my attacks carefully, sometimes it dont go well, but most of the time I can kill 1-2 people from behind and disappears quickly. It makes me happy and I dont really understand infantry whining and offending cav players all the time about that. Just think about every infantry who kills someone from behind / from side / in group (by being unfair). Those things happens all the time in cRPG, infantry do this all day long, its a battle after all, not duel. So how can cav backstabbing be different than infantry ones? Cav is forced to play like that much more often, choosing weakest targets, attacking from behind. I know couch from behind is annoying, but you can use tilde key (~) to prevent that, its so amazing key maybe you should just use it more often? Or maybe dont, because then lancer will be able to kill only peasants (pretty easily only those without pitchfork and scythe in their hands).
Cav is also a class which is very dependent from map itself. Many maps are almost completely unplayable for cav (towns with little corridors). Huge, open space maps arent best for cav either (its hard to do backstabbing job there, you are clearly visible for everyone from huge distance). Big hills makes cav useless, houses where ranged can go at are deadly for cav. Its the only class which is affected by terrain that much, its just huge disadvantage for cav. Even little, but steep hill will cause horse to almost completely stop on it.
And you cant forget horse is such a huge target for ranged. You can predict horse path pretty well, since horses cant change movement direction like infantry (sidewalking and changing direction of movement in the blink of an eye to avoid ranged is normal thing for infantry, horses cant do this).
Lance damage was nerfed so many times, right now at full speed of Destrier +3, regular Heavy Lance attack sometimes dont kill even low armored archer by 1 hit. Couching is the best way to kill your target (9/10 couches kills enemy instantly), but same time its much more risky than regular attack. Even unaware opponent can move slightly just before your attack and you can miss him with couch, you need to be so precise with your horse positioning while couching. Killing aware opponent with couch often means suicide. Couching attack has much shorter length than regular one, so enemy will most likely outreach you easily. But sometimes its the only way to kill your enemy, since regular attack can be blocked with simple holding downblock. No matter what speed you riding at and what part of enemy you aim (head, body, legs), your regular attack can always be very easily blocked or easily chambered.
What could be better in my opinion?
For me, the most annoying and unpredictable thing is jumping. Jumping and attacking same time makes no sense, it has no logic at all. Players can jump 1 meter up and about 1.5 meters to one side in any moment they want, and still same time they make attack with its full power. Like side walking wasnt already broken, they can jump like a monkeys in cRPG too. Its just completely broken mechanism. You should be able to jump only about 20 cm up and about 50 cm to the side unarmored, of course no jumping at all with heavy armor. When you jump, you shouldnt be able to make attack same time. Then seeing jumping people wont make you feel like we are playing some space monkeys multi-tasking game.
Pikes should be much more deadly to horses in cRPG. Pikemans arent much of a threat in terms of damage they deal to horses, they only have range. If pike stop your horse riding straight into it at full speed, it should kill the horse instantly. Right now pikes are more effective killing people on the ground than horses. I see no logic in that, pikes should do very heavy damage to horses, it should be the best anti-horses weapon. Right now even if I make a mistake and pikeman stop my horse, Ill just turn a little and move the other direction with half horses hp left (sometimes even more, depending from horse speed). At the moment its so much better to be stopped by pikeman than poleaxer or especially hit by 2h swordsman (this one is deadly). I would love to see pikemans as proper horse killers, and regular infantry as easy targets for cav.
But Im sure, infantry would whine then even more. I dont really understand why they cry now. Most of them have huge advantage fighting lancer already, they just need to be aware of him. Its not true without pikes they cant do anything against cav. Pikes are good weapons only to stop horses. Many other weapons are much better to actually kill horses and/or their riders.
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