cRPG

Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Admerius on March 31, 2016, 06:09:03 pm

Title: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Admerius on March 31, 2016, 06:09:03 pm
This might actually be removed or censored...

I'm just curious what you guys thought after watching the 6½ hour "documentary"?
If you cant find it on your own then this thread is not for you.

TLDR: Good emotional porn about an underdog almost saving humanity if you: "Hush, relax and just let it happen" ;)

<My choice would be: "The series is well made and has a good choice of music, but in the end it's just a conspiracy flick"
But I want you opinion so I ticked "Give them run">

(click to show/hide)

The trailer for:  The Greatest Story Never Told
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Golem on April 06, 2016, 11:03:31 pm
Can't watch it in Czech Republic, prolly cause we had two major concentration camps established here after we let einstein in without giving him a fight. We're literally to blame for the start of WWII, fmpob.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gurgumul on April 07, 2016, 12:39:37 am
Can't watch it in Czech Republic, prolly cause we had two major concentration camps established here after we let einstein in without giving him a fight. We're literally to blame for the start of WWII, fmpob.
same here, brambor cousin
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Bittersteel on July 21, 2016, 05:10:14 pm
Inspiring
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Casul on July 21, 2016, 05:37:22 pm
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Bittersteel on July 21, 2016, 05:48:07 pm
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Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Bittersteel on April 10, 2017, 01:08:52 pm
Bump

I encourage people to watch it. Take it with a grain of salt though, a lot of things being said lacks sufficient evidence, but so does much of the official verson of WW2. I personally don't think einstein was much worse then Churchill and Roosevelt. He certainly wasn't worse then Stalin. The entire national socialism movement could have made the world into a better place, it's a shame it had to end with the ethnic cleansing of jews and other minorities.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Ikarus on April 10, 2017, 02:09:46 pm
yeaaah I don´t want to go to jail, thanks  :?
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 10, 2017, 04:13:09 pm
yeaaah I don´t want to go to jail, thanks  :?

Sure am glad i live in a country where i cant be jailed for questioning the doctrine they teach me in schools.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Ikarus on April 11, 2017, 01:09:12 am
Sure am glad i live in a country where i cant be jailed for questioning the doctrine they teach me in schools.
or the doctrine of the people who lived during those times and told us in huge detail how exactly everything went down back then

this isn´t murica, Gravy, we actually do get a really good history education and still have people from that time who were able to educate us. The austrians were known to supersede most of the stuff and call bullshit on what happened, but the more they actually tell their kids about what and how it exactly went down, partly frightened, partly (still!) worshipping. I don´t go to jail if I watch pro-squarebeard stuff as long as I don´t overdo it. I just play it save by keeping my "online portfolio" low aswell

btw, if you can find a version with subtitles, watch "Der Herr Karl", although it´s just one-man-cabaret, it was quite a shocker back then since that one guy represents how a lot of people acted back then, he´s especially reflecting the austrian culture and thinking well, a bit too well for the liking of some people since we can be quite twisted
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 11, 2017, 04:47:44 am
or the doctrine of the people who lived during those times and told us in huge detail how exactly everything went down back then

this isn´t murica, Gravy, we actually do get a really good history education and still have people from that time who were able to educate us. The austrians were known to supersede most of the stuff and call bullshit on what happened, but the more they actually tell their kids about what and how it exactly went down, partly frightened, partly (still!) worshipping. I don´t go to jail if I watch pro-squarebeard stuff as long as I don´t overdo it. I just play it save by keeping my "online portfolio" low aswell

btw, if you can find a version with subtitles, watch "Der Herr Karl", although it´s just one-man-cabaret, it was quite a shocker back then since that one guy represents how a lot of people acted back then, he´s especially reflecting the austrian culture and thinking well, a bit too well for the liking of some people since we can be quite twisted

If the education was so good, why should it be outlawed to question history? There should be nothing to hide. That alone makes me all the more eager to question and consider.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Ikarus on April 11, 2017, 09:16:55 am
If the education was so good, why should it be outlawed to question history? There should be nothing to hide. That alone makes me all the more eager to question and consider.
again, it´s not outlawed to question history, it´s outlawed to run around and shout "sieg heil" n shit
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Bittersteel on April 11, 2017, 10:23:25 am
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

But it is
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: IR_Kuoin on April 11, 2017, 11:37:15 am
I've watched a few documentaries and similar stuff, also there's a lot of good and interesting "documentaries" made in Germany during WW2 detailing how they invaded / carried out operations, like this one when I got a bit curious about my own country during ww2 etc.


One thing that I've noticed is that during these "propaganda" movies they never put the allied forces / enemies in bad light but try to give them as much respect as possible, haven't really seen that in allied counterparts, or well at least yet. The history and aftermath of WW2 can be a bit dodgy some places, the victor writes history after all. So personally I think it's better to look at stuff that was documented and written down during the war rather than after.

As for the OP I think that a lot of stuff talking / education about Hilter is a bit too villainous, or am I wrong? Well at least when I learned about him in school our history books doesn't really put him in a bad light but more neutral observation than trying to make him seem like the devil, while in other books / sources it's a lot different.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Ikarus on April 11, 2017, 02:54:02 pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

But it is
Quote
He who operates in a manner characterized other than that in § § 3a – 3f will be punished
Quote
whoever denies, grossly plays down, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity in a print publication, in broadcast or other media

Quote
yeaaah I don´t want to go to jail, thanks  :?
I guess I overdid it with the sarcasm, sorry for the confusion.

research is fine, actively denying it isn´t
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Bittersteel on April 11, 2017, 03:21:00 pm
Questioning the holocaust, which you so perfectly displayed, is illegal in many countries and can result in either fines or jailtime. Am I allowed to question the extermination of 8 million christians in Ukraine by the communists? Yes I am, why should I be thrown in jail for saying "These numbers don't add up, this seems unlikely" about the holocaust?

When asked what the germans have done to the jews, you must also ask what the jews have done the germans. This is very important to understanding the holocaust and why it happened. This could however be portrayed as "excusing the genocide of the jews".

So let me be clear, even if I think the holocaust happened, you should without a doubt be allowed to "deny" its existence without fear of repercussion.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gurgumul on April 11, 2017, 03:42:47 pm
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Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: njames89 on April 11, 2017, 04:02:39 pm
Why?

Don't you think people should be able to say whatever they want? I mean otherwise who gets to play the language police and determine what is and is not offensive?
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: IR_Kuoin on April 11, 2017, 05:53:51 pm
Jews weren't gassed.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 11, 2017, 06:13:15 pm
Deny the existence of a major historical event in a print publication, broadcast or other media without sufficient evidence? Denial for the sake of denial, or an anti-intellectual exercise to see how far you can push 'muh freedom of speech'.

Maybe you could argue that pig-headed denial is a human right or something. Maybe it is. But what's the 'pro' argument for the publication and exportation of this denial?

Forget 'people should be able to...', I think that people already can do and say anything they want. Anything at all. But everything has repercussions, and if you don't consider your surroundings and context before acting then maybe you go to jail or maybe win the Darwin awards. That's a fairly general rule for the world we live in. If you crave attention and wish to deny the holocaust without sufficient evidence for no particular reason you can do so. Some places you'll get arrested. Some places you'll get beaten up. Some places maybe neither of those things will happen.

Questioning things based on evidence and outright denying something without evidence are not equal actions, they are not treated equally.

Even without evidence, denying anything shouldnt be something that can result in you going to jail. Flat earthers shouldnt be jailed for example. Im sure there are people that deny things based on nothing, just a gut feeling but should ignorance really be the grounds for punishment? Either way, there are some rather interesting contradictory things swirling around the holocaust, and to me they dont seem like straight up denial out of nowhere, but quite researched and logical ideas.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Rest_in_Peace on April 11, 2017, 06:25:44 pm
Jews weren't gassed.

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Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: njames89 on April 11, 2017, 06:52:39 pm
Don't get me wrong I am really just playing dickheads advocate here. It's full retard to deny the Holocaust but I tend to lean towards free speech being an important right. Despite that it means more morons speaking aswell.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Ikarus on April 11, 2017, 06:58:32 pm
Quote
Deny the existence of a major historical event in a print publication, broadcast or other media without sufficient evidence? Denial for the sake of denial, or an anti-intellectual exercise to see how far you can push 'muh freedom of speech'.

Maybe you could argue that pig-headed denial is a human right or something. Maybe it is. But what's the 'pro' argument for the publication and exportation of this denial?

Amen

Don't get me wrong I am really just playing dickheads advocate here. It's full retard to deny the Holocaust but I tend to lean towards free speech being an important right. Despite that it means more morons speaking aswell.

Yeah, the problem is that a majority of people are mixing up "freedom of speech" with "I can spew anything at anyone"
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 11, 2017, 07:31:44 pm
The exercise of spreading controversial things can help, if only to make people more aware of their studies, is it all actually correct? Is there any other side to the coin, and is it in any sense reasonable? How easily is it dismissed, maybe it actually does have something to consider. We should never get used to thinking that everything taught is correct, and should always question everything constantly (at least to a healthy amount).

Thought policing is terrifying, surpressing freedom of speech is too. You can spew anything at me anyday, i can dismiss it if i dont agree with it, but never ever would i want someone jailed for saying something to me that i disagreed with.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Evelyn Beatrice Hall.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gurgumul on April 11, 2017, 09:17:40 pm
Let's say your grandparents were raped, tortured and humiliated in most brutal ways. Then some little bundle of sticks kid comes up and yells "holocause never happened xDDDD". Would you still respect his "freedom of speech"? It's one thing to be simply deluded like the flat Earth people, they don't really harm anyone, and sensible people know what's true anyway. But ignorant internet "scholars" who shit on your history for whatever reason are another thing.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 11, 2017, 09:46:24 pm
Let's say your grandparents were raped, tortured and humiliated in most brutal ways. Then some little bundle of sticks kid comes up and yells "holocause never happened xDDDD". Would you still respect his "freedom of speech"? It's one thing to be simply deluded like the flat Earth people, they don't really harm anyone, and sensible people know what's true anyway. But ignorant internet "scholars" who shit on your history for whatever reason are another thing.

Sure, why shouldnt i respect his freedom of speech? I simply wouldnt give a shit about what he says, he's just being a moron. Not like we live in saudi arabia or something, "you offend my religion? infidel, you must be whipped 1000 times!", just move on.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: njames89 on April 11, 2017, 11:38:55 pm
It's all just noises coming out of the mouth of an ape
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: the real god emperor on April 12, 2017, 06:09:36 am
I was browsing till the beginning to find where the necro begun. There was no necro. Much disappoint.

It's all about the person who claims shit's influence on society, a certain group or you. If a known historian claimed that holocaust is a lie, you'd respect and listen as he is most likely more educated than you in the subject. But if you are confident in your knowledge, no matter how many edgelord kidz approached and said "holokost is lie XD" you would be invincible.

Like turks recently calling everyone navisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zis all around. We don't learn WW2 or NG in school. All my knowledge is internet learned so as every other Turks'.
The accusation doesn't mean much for us.

This whole thing I was trying to explain to people about Armenian Genocide few years ago, just to face a downvote spam :(
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Torben on April 12, 2017, 08:56:42 am
"Im Zweifel für die Freiheit"  is the credo of the peps of the first senate that made our constitution.  Translates kinda like "if in doubt,  decide for freedom (of speech)" 

The high court in this first senate had a really hard time figuring out if,  or if not to restrict the freedom of speech in this matter.  However,  in the end,  they where not in doubt:  their consensus was that the prevention of an affirmation of the NS reign of 33-45 is of paramount importance for inner and outer security.

my 2cents:  you have to see this decision in context:  although a nationwide dechocolate chip cookiefication was going on,  many of the people in power in post war germany where to some extent involved in the NS state.  A heap of the population was still indoctrinated with NS ideology,  and many germans still where convinced that a victory of NS ideology was possible.

the Federal Republic was a counter model to NS germany,  and as that couldnt tolerate falsification of the NS inheritance.  On an ethical level,   its just as important to safe guard these facts,  for humanity to have a chance of learning from it.  Zero tolerance towards denial seems a fair tradeoff for that effort.

edit:  "dechocolate chip cookiefication "

lol
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 12, 2017, 04:59:57 pm
If you print slander in published media about an individual or a company, just something you've made up without evidence, you get fined obnoxious amounts of money in a court of law. Nobody gets precious about freedom of speech in this instance. A moron in public could still say these things, just not publish it as fact.

If you print flat holocaust denial without evidence in media then a court of law also decides your level of guilt (in some countries). Is this really so different?

Do they? It seems like thats been going on a lot over in the US, and all thats happened is that the news lost credibility, as they should. News outlets on the internet are constantly publishing a bunch bullshit, but its so easily dismissed that you just laugh at it and move on.
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Bittersteel on April 12, 2017, 05:05:38 pm
Is this really so different?

Yes, yes it is.

You're hurting a brand - they have the right to sue you (they may or may not win in court).

vs.

You're claiming that something that happened 70 years ago didn't happen. Who's gonna sue you? The deceased jews that were victims of the holocaust?
Title: Re: The Greatest Story Never Told
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 12, 2017, 05:28:32 pm
And here's the best thing - as long as that little bundle of sticks comes up to you in person and says 'holocause never happened xDDDD' as long as he avoids doing so "in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace" he is still legally able to do so even in Germany (or at least he doesn't explicitly break the specific laws against Holocaust denial). So yelling it in your face is probably not allowed but otherwise yay freedom of speech. It would probably be a stupid idea if he values his own existence, but freedom of speech wins again. Hurrah.

It's way out of proportion to say that it's a blanket ban on discussing or assessing the established history.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39575680
Melania Trump wins damages from Daily Mail over 'escort' allegation
The Daily Mail published allegations Mrs Trump "provided services beyond simply modelling"

The media does post any old garbage. But personal accusations without evidence are considered slander, go to court, and reward you with big $$$

Why should you be able to slander a country's-worth of people in a written publication when you wouldn't be allowed to slander a single person? Again, you can publish opinion but not 'slander'.

Even then, the holocaust denial does have some pretty thorough bases to base the opinions on, so it cant really be considered slander.
I wonder how suing for slander would work against any online paper, there are so many posting slander there that its just become an everyday thing. To the point where you just lose credibility in the paper posting that trash, and move on. The way it should work, no need to sue anyone.