cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: polkafranzi on June 09, 2012, 06:46:55 pm

Title: "...and fails."
Post by: polkafranzi on June 09, 2012, 06:46:55 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy7DT_FTms0&feature=player_detailpage#t=1368s

Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: _Sebastian_ on June 11, 2012, 05:54:09 pm
Oh god.
Another inaccurate armor penetration test.

First of all the test method is crap.
Such a test should be made with a shooting machine and a (flying)real arrow.

The arrowhead is a needle bodkin which were used to penetrate mail, not plate armor.
Also the needle bodkin is completly blunt and it isnt made of hardened steel.

The longbow was a very low poundage bow.
I would say it was a ~50+ pound bow (english warbow draw-weight = 80 to 160+ pound)

The arrow weight in the test was 63gramms which is realistic for a war arrow.
The starting velocity of the arrow was just 37.9m/s(124ft/s) and this is very very slow.
Very strong and well made Longbows can shot war arrows(with a weight which fits to the bow draw weight) with a starting velocity up to 63m/s+(207ft/s).
The engergy of the arrow with 63gramms and 37.9m/s is 45.25J... with 63m/s it is 125.02J.
So the energy will be the 2.72x of tested arrow impact :!:

But also with the weaker tested bow it schould absolutly be possible to penetrate plate armor at close range with a hardened and sharp bodkin(which is designed to penetrate plate armor).

Enough said.


EDIT
Something like this
(this is the bodkin I use for my war arrows)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Arrowblood on June 11, 2012, 05:58:53 pm
they should use this maybe
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Adamar on June 11, 2012, 06:03:44 pm
Derp, if the plate is positioned on top of a platform, of course its gonna fail.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Arrowblood on June 11, 2012, 06:10:09 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KCE40J93m5c#t=42s :shock:
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on June 11, 2012, 06:19:46 pm
that clip tells the truth, Nerf Archery naow

Quote from: Deutschritter on June 11, 2012, 06:10:09 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KCE40J93m5c#t=42s :shock:
This video is fake, see those pixels
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Aleskander on June 12, 2012, 04:39:59 am
Quote from: Morso on June 11, 2012, 06:19:46 pm
that clip tells the truth, Nerf Archery naow
This video is fake, see those pixels

What the hell is your avatar from
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on June 12, 2012, 04:43:16 am
Quote from: Aleskander on June 12, 2012, 04:39:59 am
What the hell is your avatar from
Finnish children program called  "Aasi, Morso ja Mouru"  , it was freaking scary when i was a child, i still get chills watching it and my avatar is the morso.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_jDyfUC42Q&feature=related it should be a horror film, tho this is a bit edited from the original :D
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Logen on June 12, 2012, 07:24:10 am
Quote from: Morso on June 12, 2012, 04:43:16 am
it should be a horror film
holy crap
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Bobthehero on June 12, 2012, 07:59:41 am
Test is fail, but arrow still did fuck all to plate armor.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Sagar on June 12, 2012, 10:27:55 am
Ranged need to be nerfed more.

Longbow vs Plate Armour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Adamar on June 12, 2012, 04:00:43 pm
Ranged needs to ne nerfed? Are we killing too much?
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: zagibu on June 13, 2012, 02:01:05 am
There are many types of plate armor. Simple breastplates made of wrought iron worn by regular foot soldiers could be penetrated by bodkin arrows and crossbolts, but high carbon plate armor from e.g. Milanese armor makers could not. Not even with a perfectly perpendicular hit from close range.

But there are always gaps in an armor.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: engurrand on June 13, 2012, 09:07:18 am
It's true...

The Milanese had a secret... It made their steel tens of % stronger.
Which is a lot...

Obviously the next step in the long bow argument is to test it on a variety of different grades of steel.

Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Aleskander on June 13, 2012, 10:50:33 pm
Quote from: engurrand on June 13, 2012, 09:07:18 am
It's true...

The Milanese had a secret... It made their steel tens of % stronger.
Which is a lot...

Obviously the next step in the long bow argument is to test it on a variety of different grades of steel.

Japanese steel is still over 9000 times stronger than Milanese

If the french knights had been wearing armor made of katanas the whole world would be speaking a combination of french and japanese
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Bobthehero on June 14, 2012, 01:31:38 am
 :lol:
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: zagibu on June 14, 2012, 11:51:33 pm
Quote from: Aleskander on June 13, 2012, 10:50:33 pm
If the french knights had been wearing armor made of katanas the whole world would be katanaing a katanation of kata and na
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: dodnet on June 15, 2012, 12:48:21 am
If they would have used a german tank, no one would care about Katanas  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: polkafranzi on June 15, 2012, 12:52:50 am
@ archers

To be honest, all that videos like this and the countless others you can find on the internet show us, is that arrowheads WEREN'T made from depleted uranium (like they are in this mod), but actually arrows found it hard to go through plate whether you like it or not you just have to get over this "i'm an archer on cRPG i'll defend my class til i'm dead irl" thing.

As some of you have mentioned above, count yourselves lucky that you can even do damage to the likes of milanese plate, because the only weapon on the game which should be able to slay milanese plate is the Katana, which would just melt the whole suit of armour with one strike.

conclusion to save the mod:  buff EVERYTHING back to how they once were, then nerf archery, then buff katana = ULTIMATE BALANCE.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: BlindGuy on June 15, 2012, 02:32:53 am
Quote from: polkafranzi on June 09, 2012, 06:46:55 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy7DT_FTms0&feature=player_detailpage#t=1368s

Go to 31:40 in that same vid: Archers using mauls, hammers, daggers, swords, and w/e else they find, as the Proffesor says just after

"The Point about archers is that they are very flexible soldiers, they can turn their hands to anything."

I WANT this, I would give anything for the mod to be back to this, archers being able to fight, maybe the solution IS to nerf their damage vs armours over 50. If anyone can code this, the team on this mod can. That way they MUST fight those guys, since kiting will not win for them if they cannot hurt the guy with arrows. Give them back a way to FIGHT, archers SHOULD be using Mauls, hammers, daggers (Daggers need to ignore armour I believe, tbh. Not long dagger, just dagger, and only on stab, so it becomes what it should be, a dagger for stabbing eyes and cracks in armour) and other cheap and cheerful weapons. After all, they werent Ethiopeans, or rich men, they were peasants with a mail shirt, a big hammer, 2 dozen shafts and a plan: "Kill all the fuckers who come this way, no matter what else happens, we kill them, because they wont ever take us prisoner."
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 15, 2012, 04:20:51 pm
Agree with blindguy.  I think daggers would be awesome if they actually "ignored" armor (better than pierce).  Keep the lower damage but ignore armor completely.  That's one thing I really like about WotR alpha is the dagger, you can do a stab from all 4 directions, your char just turns their wrists for the appropriate stab.

Archers would run up on heavily armored infantry who were either engaged, or immobilized (stuck in mud, on their backs underneath people fighting) and would stab them between armor, or use primitive small mauls (basically hammers) and bash their heads in.

Also, deployable stakes as siege equipment would be awesome (just make it so it rears horses, not damages them so it's easy to implement).
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Bobthehero on June 15, 2012, 08:07:09 pm
Lightly armored archer charging a knight? Uh... uh... maybe with the hammer, but I think the dagger was used after someone managed to wrestle down some and then stab him.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 15, 2012, 08:09:05 pm
Quote from: Bobthehero on June 15, 2012, 08:07:09 pm
Lightly armored archer charging a knight? Uh... uh... maybe with the hammer, but I think the dagger was used after someone managed to wrestle down some and then stab him.

Charging a knight or heavily armored infantry head on, 1v1 with a small mallet or dagger? No...of course not.  I wouldn't have ever suggested such a thing
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: BlindGuy on June 16, 2012, 05:25:08 am
Sure, alone dagger vs knight, not great, but 3 or 4 of you close in, one mauls him and other 3 dagger him while hes stunned. Knights: Few and powerful. Archers: Cheap and disposable.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: XyNox on June 16, 2012, 11:27:18 am
Maybe power strike, power draw and power throw should be merged into one single "power xxx" skill. Its quite pathetic that an archer who is strong enough to draw a 150 pound warbow is not able to swing a sword hard enough to do severe damage to medium armored people. Since the wpf system would remain you still have to put points into weapon master in order to specialize a certain role.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on June 16, 2012, 12:11:07 pm
Well duh, ofcourse it will fail, the plate was put on a solid platfrom. Put some balistic jelly below it instead and grab it by the sides. I bet it would penetrate then
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Bobthehero on June 16, 2012, 08:35:34 pm
Probably not muffin, or at least not enough to do serious damage, then IRL there's padding underneath which would stop most of the kinetic (I think that's the term) force.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: zottlmarsch on June 16, 2012, 08:48:23 pm
Quote from: Sagar on June 12, 2012, 10:27:55 am
Ranged need to be nerfed more.

Longbow vs Plate Armour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

+1 for the Scientific Test in this video (nerf Archery)
+1000 because the video has Mike Loades presenting!

Quote from: BlindGuy on June 15, 2012, 02:32:53 am
(click to show/hide)

Exactly what I thought when i watched this documentary!
Well said dude, couldn't agree more! (talking of daggers, there is a cool rondel dagger in the dejawolf resource pack, don't know why they haven't put it in yet?)
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: PanPan on June 16, 2012, 09:11:15 pm
Quote from: XyNox on June 16, 2012, 11:27:18 am
Maybe power strike, power draw and power throw should be merged into one single "power xxx" skill. Its quite pathetic that an archer who is strong enough to draw a 150 pound warbow is not able to swing a sword hard enough to do severe damage to medium armored people. Since the wpf system would remain you still have to put points into weapon master in order to specialize a certain role.

Yeah, and to not make Knights using bows same as Archers there is a requirement for WPF to use a Hightier Bow.
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: Aleskander on June 16, 2012, 10:44:35 pm
All in all, balance over realism
Title: Re: "...and fails."
Post by: polkafranzi on June 17, 2012, 12:02:18 am
Quote from: Aleskander on June 16, 2012, 10:44:35 pm
All in all, balance over realism

Why? It's fun to be the underdog.

Nerf ranged, and let them actually be heroes when they make that fake kill against a tincan.

It's too easy at the moment.