Dota 2 cRPG Guild (Discuss Dota here)

[Overdriven]

Also, the whole "mid is ganker" thing is just a relic left over from olden times, like many other things. People never stop to think about it or question it, they just automatically call anyone going against the "everyone knows it" facts a noob. Mid is a worse lane to gank from than top and bottom.

In pub games I think it's important. Most pub games I find if I don't have a mid who goes and ganks we inevitably lose no matter how mobile the other lanes are. I quite dislike playing heroes who aren't really that great at ganking mid. It just seems like a waste of a lane to me. Get the early gold and levels and then you are in prime position to massively influence either of the other lanes relatively quickly and easily. Especially if the enemy mid is static. And a good ganking mid will generate far more gold and xp from kills than they would have every achieved in lane. Not to mention secure your team mates farm.

That said, there's nothing worse than playing a mid where the other two lanes refuse to come and try for the enemy mid hero. It works both ways.

[Xant]

Waste of a lane? How is it any more waste of a lane than anything else? You are also in a prime position to massively fuck up your team's XP and gold with failed ganks while leaving your mid opponent really fed. Of course you will "generate more gold and xp" if you manage to get tons of kills - that goes for everyone. By the same logic everyone on the map should be ganking nonstop. But they aren't, for the same reason that a mid shouldn't. Indeed, when competitive games have a dedicated roamer, he is very, very rarely a mid.

"Just go and kill everyone" sounds like really good advice, but sadly it's far from that simple. A mid will also get detected easier by wards if he goes ganking... and that is a lot of gold and XP wasted if you walk down or up to a lane, stand in the jungle waiting for an opportunity.. but the enemy plays too safe, either because they know you're there or for some other reason. Then you have to run back. Meanwhile, your opponent is up ~600 gold and 750 XP.... and you're down the same amount. Then if you gank again and it doesn't work out, suddenly it's double that. And so on.

[Gravoth_iii]

I do think mid is for ganking, but needs rng runes, aware teammates and wards. Ganks cant be forced though, you have to find good opportunities and not just go becuse they are losing lane.

[Vibe]

Supports are much better to roam and try ganks. Your trilane support (#4) can easily leave the lane without them noticing, unless they have your entire shit warded, roam to mid and get a mid kill instead. It's a bit harder to do this if you're solo queued, since you need to communicate, but in team queue you should be doing this. Or just camp runes in night time to surprise enemy mid.

[Xant]

I do think mid is for ganking

Any reasoning to back this up or is this just a gut feeling kind of thing?

It makes no sense for a solo hero with a lane to himself (i.e farm) to go "ganking" when the situation doesn't call for it. You are wasting gold and XP. It makes so much more sense for a support to gank: they have no items anyway, they aren't level dependent, they usually have great disables, you don't know if they went ganking or warding or jungling when they disappear, if they fail a gank it's no big deal it's a victory even if they create space in the other lane, there's somebody left in their lane to take advantage of the creep kills, can buy smoke realistically for ganks etc etc

So tell me again, why should a mid hero go ganking? It's like demanding the trilane carry should go ganking

[Gravoth_iii]

Any reasoning to back this up or is this just a gut feeling kind of thing?

It makes no sense for a solo hero with a lane to himself (i.e farm) to go "ganking" when the situation doesn't call for it. You are wasting gold and XP. It makes so much more sense for a support to gank: they have no items anyway, they aren't level dependent, they usually have great disables, you don't know if they went ganking or warding or jungling when they disappear, if they fail a gank it's no big deal it's a victory even if they create space in the other lane, there's somebody left in their lane to take advantage of the creep kills, can buy smoke realistically for ganks etc etc

So tell me again, why should a mid hero go ganking? It's like demanding the trilane carry should go ganking

You have easy access to both runes, you get exp fast mid so you can get early ultimates etc and the distance to both other lanes is short. Simply timing the push to enemy tower, go get rune and gank. When done buy tp, go back mid and you have missed maybe one creepwave. Many heroes that are good mid usually die out later game, even if you keep farming they wont keep up so instead its good to harass enemy carries who are bad early but will dominate late.

Supports should also by all means go gank if their lane doesnt require them to babysit.

Are you saying that there should just be another hard carry mid then supports do all the ganking?

[Xant]

"Easy ultimates etc" goes both ways. Why should you gank instead of someone ganking your lane? You'll miss at least two creep waves, more likely three, and TP is another 135 gold. You can only realistically gank one lane from mid, so easy access to both runes doesn't really matter, since from Radiant you'll only be able to gank bottom and from Dire top.

And no, mid is a good #2 position.

[Gravoth_iii]

Ganking mid isnt that easy though, its way easier to gank sidelanes. If you get an invis/haste you can gank enemy hardlanes depending on how much your team is pushing. Even if the enemies have wards with haste they wont have time to back off, and with invis they wont even know its coming. Ganking sidelanes can also result in more than one kill and you can chose to go kill junglers if there are any. Supports cant really solo kill people junglers unless they get lucky.

[Xant]

Ganking sidelanes being easier than mid is debatable.

You've gotta be playing against some really bad people if they don't have time to  back off when they know
a) there's a haste rune in the rune spot closest to them
b) the enemy mid is running to it

And as for invis, that's why they play safe in the adjacent lane until they know what the invis midder is doing.

You're not going to solo kill junglers with any non-invis hero (see: not midders) if they have any kind of wards or awareness

[Gravoth_iii]

Well to be fair, both are situational, it all depends on picks.

[Overdriven]

You've gotta be playing against some really bad people if they don't have time to  back off when they know
a) there's a haste rune in the rune spot closest to them
b) the enemy mid is running to it

99% of pub games they won't have a clue about either of these. Even if they are warded it will be tunnel vision on the lane. Especially if there's no communication. In pub games with randomers I think mid is really important for ganking the other lanes. In games with full parties though this can vary massively.

[Gravoth_iii]

http://dotabuff.com/matches/462891907 Seriously, sometimes i just really hate this game. I randomed riki, someone picked mid alch, drow pick went offlane. Okay please pick a support. Denied- Nyx comes safelane and steals farm, clock goes offlane and feeds. Not a single ward was seen that game and i had a very hard time keeping up vs an LC that kept snowballing, a tanky fucking huskarr and a good invoker player. I mean, im at 3.6k rating, is that really not enough to not get teammates like this? Its not high but i cant really get it higher when i get teams like this.

[Vibe]

http://dotabuff.com/matches/462891907 Seriously, sometimes i just really hate this game. I randomed riki, someone picked mid alch, drow pick went offlane. Okay please pick a support. Denied- Nyx comes safelane and steals farm, clock goes offlane and feeds. Not a single ward was seen that game and i had a very hard time keeping up vs an LC that kept snowballing, a tanky fucking huskarr and a good invoker player. I mean, im at 3.6k rating, is that really not enough to not get teammates like this? Its not high but i cant really get it higher when i get teams like this.

ELO hell

I'm about the same and I do get dumb ass picks here and there. Some games are fine, but some are just plain nightmare, it feels like you're playing with sub-2000 MMR players. I don't know if they're really that low or just fucking drunk or something.

[Miwiw]

Your rating means shit because you're teamed up with bad players anyway. You can't see the rating of other players but I doubt most of them are even close to your own rating.

3,6k is below average anyway, I guess.

[Overdriven]

http://dotabuff.com/matches/462891907 Seriously, sometimes i just really hate this game. I randomed riki, someone picked mid alch, drow pick went offlane. Okay please pick a support. Denied- Nyx comes safelane and steals farm, clock goes offlane and feeds. Not a single ward was seen that game and i had a very hard time keeping up vs an LC that kept snowballing, a tanky fucking huskarr and a good invoker player. I mean, im at 3.6k rating, is that really not enough to not get teammates like this? Its not high but i cant really get it higher when i get teams like this.

At least you knew what to expect. I find the worst ones are when you have supports who refuse to actually buy any support items or wards and instead buy a hand of midas and try and carry.