Poll

What do you think about the archery / Xbow modifications ?

I love
24 (13.8%)
I like
23 (13.2%)
I don't like everything
34 (19.5%)
I don't like
27 (15.5%)
I hate
66 (37.9%)

Total Members Voted: 172

Author Topic: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread  (Read 16232 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gurnisson

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1750
  • Infamy: 362
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nordmen
  • Game nicks: SeaRaider_Gurnisson
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #105 on: February 21, 2016, 12:47:34 am »
0
well nerf harder then. Untill they cant do damage .

or not
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Yeldur

  • Global Head Retard
  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 574
  • Infamy: 189
  • cRPG Player
  • Trained by Nord BlueKnight
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Nordmen, Burg Krems, Acre
  • Game nicks: ladoea, Yeldur
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2016, 01:43:19 am »
+3
I know how to solve all of our problems

Step 1: Nerf everything to 0 damage
Step 2: Re-name C-RPG to K-RPG (Kids-RPG)
Step 3: Enforce a rule that you can't attack anyone because that's mean
Step 4: Force the entire server to join the Krems clan
Step 5: Spam animations until everyone on the server has hung themselves due to the fact that they have been driven insane.
Step 6: K-RPG was never Kids-RPG. It was always Krems-RPG.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

he,  the god admin.  drink the tea, not ascared to  fight in th  batefield,

Offline Yuang

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 788
  • Infamy: 45
  • cRPG Player
  • I love you all
    • View Profile
    • 汉云工作室
  • Faction: Nothing
  • Game nicks: TangSanZang
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #107 on: February 21, 2016, 01:51:31 am »
+1
The CHN server file is not the same as NA&EU. The same bow, the same armor, CHN damage is higher than that of NA&EU over 1/3. Maybe the CHN server needs a copy of the NA&EU file.

http://forum.melee.org/crpg-technical-problems/there-is-a-big-problem-in-chn-server/
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I'm who I am, a firework of larruping color.
My time is seven hours earlier than the forum.

Offline Yuang

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 788
  • Infamy: 45
  • cRPG Player
  • I love you all
    • View Profile
    • 汉云工作室
  • Faction: Nothing
  • Game nicks: TangSanZang
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #108 on: February 21, 2016, 01:56:29 am »
0
Make Viking round shield to be Range Buster!  :twisted: I think it's used to stop the arrows, not to fight. :!:

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/make-viking-round-shield-0-difficulty/
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I'm who I am, a firework of larruping color.
My time is seven hours earlier than the forum.

Offline Sparvico

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 976
  • Infamy: 174
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Steam ID: Sparvico
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Mossbacks
  • Game nicks: Sparvico et al.
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #109 on: February 21, 2016, 03:44:18 am »
0
(click to show/hide)

Little late to this thread due to a forum mute, but I think one of the main problems with this patch is that it traded accuracy for damage in a bad way. Before the update you had to invest at least 130, better if 150, WPF in xbows to get really good accuracy with Heavy and Arb. The damage was pretty extreme, and the reload time made the rate of fire somewhat faster than perhaps it should be. That combined with the low difficulty made it easy to hybrid melee-xbow and be decent at both.

Now you only need 80-120 wpf to get really good accuracy, but the damage is much worse and the reload time is insane. It may seem like you have to reduce the amount of wpf needed because the strength requirement was increased, but in fact it should be slightly different. Leaving the damage where it was pre-patch (not hotfix), increasing the str requirement, increasing the reload animation a little bit, and decreasing the accuracy would have made crossbows something you need to invest quite a bit of skill in. You'd need to take more str to use the thing, and just as much agi to get the wpf. Leaving you with very little for melee skills. This would make them similar to bows in regards to building for max heavy or arb damage, and to differentiate them they would have much slower rate of fire with better accuracy than bows.

The main complaint, that I always heard, was not that crossbows we're incredibly good ranged, but that they were decent ranged without any harsh melee drawbacks.

Basically this mod has spent the last 3 years steadily reducing the effectiveness of ranged/melee hybrids. In order to really get the most out of melee you need to not put any stats in PD or PT, in order to get the most out of bows or throwing you need to do the same in reverse. The black sheep was always crossbows. This patch has made it slightly more necessary to not hybrid melee and crossbows, though it is still possible, but it has also totally gutted the crossbows effectiveness.

Alternatively you could simply make crossbows require PD and you'd put them in the same place as bows in regards to possible builds (having heavy at 6 PD, arb at 7 ect. ) without really needing to nerf the rest of their stats to much at all. maybe a bit less damage and a tiny bit more accuracy, just to make them feel different from bows. Apparently some idiot turk hard-coded xbows to not take PD.


Also my build pre-patch was:

Strength:18
Agility:24
One Handed:115
Crossbow:152
Weapon Master:8
Athletics:8
Iron Flesh:5
Power Strike:6


Edit: In regards to the bow changes I'm actually quite happy. They really got a buff due to the lazer like missile speed and draw speed. That said the new names are just garbage. Only two of the named longbows are actually longbows, and the composite bows are too similar in appearance and name to tell easily which is which. I get that you were probably trying to standardize the naming system for organizational purposes, but it really really sounds dumb.

Post edit edit: Fuck I have a lot of useless shit to say. The one final thing for this thread however is that perhaps in the future you should consider if something really needs a major stat re-balance before investing all this time in it. When I play melee I despise range, but when I play range I miss most of my shots. Basically ranged was already in a pretty good way (except for the hybrid ability of the xbow), and I can't help but feel like the balancers time could have been better spent getting armor and melee weapons stats in order. For instance the lombardic sword versus the swedish sword
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 04:10:37 am by Sparvico »
Quote
Mossback_Westwood: "I swear 2 my semitic God if you give me this bundle of sticks's address I'll cut off his ear and eat it"

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Yuang

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 788
  • Infamy: 45
  • cRPG Player
  • I love you all
    • View Profile
    • 汉云工作室
  • Faction: Nothing
  • Game nicks: TangSanZang
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #110 on: February 21, 2016, 07:12:50 am »
+2
When the shield behind the back, why can not stop the range? That is not reasonable!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I'm who I am, a firework of larruping color.
My time is seven hours earlier than the forum.

Offline Guray

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 574
  • Infamy: 103
  • cRPG Player
  • Geceniz esen, göğünüz bol yıldızlı olsun.
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Kapikulu_Guray
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #111 on: February 21, 2016, 07:37:51 am »
0
When the shield behind the back, why can not stop the range? That is not reasonable!
They have disabled it.

Use this part of the forum to let them see your ideas and suggestions please.

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/


lol
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Offline Rico

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1021
  • Infamy: 158
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Rico, Mila
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #112 on: February 21, 2016, 08:03:05 am »
+2
Except this patch is not a nerf. At least not for crossbows. All implications of the patch can be mitigated by going for Hunting Crossbow, Light Crossbow or Crossbow instead of the previously popular Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest, and aiming for the head instead of the body (which is possible now because missile speed and accuracy are high).
I take back what I said. Looking at my kills now compared to pre-patch, it is pretty evident that headshot kills have been and still are rather rare. Before the patch, I used to be forgetful about torso shot kills because they are less spectacular than headshots, without realizing that the vast majority of my kills were not headshots. But now that torso shot damage is almost ignoreable, headshots on wounded targets or low-tier helmet users are the only reliable way to get ranged kills. I observed it is quite difficult to keep up my pre-patch performance, and now have to adapt to higher hybridization into melee (and actually wear armor, yuck) to get the same results. My intuition may be distorted by the changed missile speed, which I haven't learned to properly aim with yet.

The patch has redefined my crossbow gameplay experience and it will take time to get used to it. I do however think it is too early to draw a final conclusion when it comes to how to evaluate the patch as a whole. Raylin's balance concept has so far been coherent and homogeneous. On the bright side, it's unlikely there will be any semi-hidden OP weapons or clear best-practice builds in the long run. However, the patch has also removed some diversity that may have to be added later on, i.e. stats that make weapons actually feel different in usage, not only in cosmetics. For example, the old Hunting Crossbow is now completely different, largely eliminating the shotgun'n'run playstyle used by Weren and others. Another problem is that numerically proportional trade-offs in the stats translate to non-proportional trade-offs in the game itself. For example, current crossbows gain +6 pierce damage and +0.2 weight if you go up along the tiers. With armor's damage absorption, the first couple of +6s aren't very notable because the target will still survive with minimal HP loss. But for higher tier crossbows, once a critical armor penetration threshold is reached, the +6s count a lot more. That's why I asked Raylin to compensate for this disadvantage of low-tier crossbows by making them lighter. The weight decrease of 0.2 is not notable enough.

Lastly, about the sudden nature of the changes: I had a bad feeling about the balance experiment at the beginning. However, Raylin emphasized that it is an experiment, and as such revertible if needed. Let's give it a chance and see whether cRPG may not become better thanks to the changes, after all. That naturally requires waiting until everything is implemented, and testing.

And since people have been asking me stuff, perhaps I should mention that I'm not actively involved in balance decisions although I'm handing out respecs and my name keeps popping up in the patch changelogs. It's mainly item stuff I'm doing. That of course neither means I blindly agree with everything Raylin is doing, nor think ill of him because of the large scale of the changes. I'm affected like everyone else, but I'm patient until everything is in place and the big picture becomes apparent. I hope others are doing the same and keep critique constructive.
Streaming cRPG, Supreme Commander and Age of Empires II on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeavenTV

Offline Sparvico

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 976
  • Infamy: 174
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Steam ID: Sparvico
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Mossbacks
  • Game nicks: Sparvico et al.
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #113 on: February 21, 2016, 09:43:36 am »
+1
Let's give it a chance and see whether cRPG may not become better thanks to the changes, after all.


Don't generally cherry pick stuff out of a long text to comment on, as context is important, but I generally agree with the rest of the sentiment in your post. The quoted bit however I am not sure about. Generally speaking I'm apt to approach a "if it isn't broken don't fix it" mentality. Or in the case of this game, if it isn't measurably overpowered (talking average KDRs of users, average Kills Per Round), probably leave it be.

I'm also very curious to know what exactly goes into balance discussions nowadays. I've always been very very wary of balance that happens based on feeling or general consensus as opposed to statistical analysis. Often balance problems seem much worse than they are because we have a tendency to remember the 25% of times the archer domed us, and not the 75% where their shot just totally missed (speaking as both a melee player that regularly dodged shots, and an archer that missed more often than not).
Quote
Mossback_Westwood: "I swear 2 my semitic God if you give me this bundle of sticks's address I'll cut off his ear and eat it"

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Mr.K.

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 474
  • Infamy: 64
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Kalmar Union
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #114 on: February 21, 2016, 11:49:08 am »
0
Picking this from the other topic.

Generally I agree, but having played archer right before and now after the patch I have to say the increased missile speed is making it much easier to land headshots and lead targets at longer ranges. The less time the projectile takes to travel to the target the greater accuracy it will have, as accuracy is only half a stat of the weapon, the other half comes from the hand of the user.

This. Actual accuracy isn't that great anymore, though it's most likely still unrealistically high, but using the Rokusun Yumi it feels like it's near perfect gameplaywise now. Long distance shots can fail if I don't hold the proper time, but it's still accurate enough to make people who actually aim better than us that don't. Dropping the missile speed to about half with everything else staying the same should fix most problems. It would bring skill back to archery and also allow people to better avoid the projectiles they actually see. The other thing that needs a fix is the damage against cavalry. According to En Dotter all projectiles get a bonus against cavalry which is absurd and hopefully devs will look into it.

Offline Pandor_Archer

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 175
  • Infamy: 292
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Druzhina
  • Game nicks: Pandor_The_Flying_Pig
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #115 on: February 21, 2016, 12:17:22 pm »
+1
Archery become easy mode coz of high missile speed. Thats why half of the server is an archers now.

Offline Pandor_Archer

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 175
  • Infamy: 292
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Druzhina
  • Game nicks: Pandor_The_Flying_Pig
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #116 on: February 21, 2016, 12:19:35 pm »
+1
im actualy glad that it hapend, horsefuckers gona be shoted down.

Offline Krave

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 253
  • Infamy: 8
  • cRPG Player
  • I love dark honey [b]eer. It's awesome!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Burg_Krems
  • Game nicks: Krave_von_Krems, Yennefer_of_Vengerberg
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2016, 12:34:33 pm »
0
What? Horses had paper-like durability before and now you're telling me it's even easier to shoot us down :/
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

People go crazy about AMGs, Ms, GTRs, EVOs
I would take Skoda over them any day
No ABS, no assistance, it's just old, loud, indestrucitble diesel engine and you, smiling in banana yellow hatchback

Offline sF_Guardian

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 738
  • Infamy: 254
  • cRPG Player
  • In honour of Pepe the kindest baguette
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Sad Hobo Guild, Burg Krems
  • Game nicks: Peso, Dondergod, Hobo_loves_Pepe, Ras_Putin_the_stronk, FrenchBow_le_tarlouze, Forrest_Trump...
  • IRC nick: Peso
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2016, 02:36:28 pm »
0
Even I can be near or on top the scoreboard with archer now. Considering I've never played archer except for maybe half a year back in 2010 in native and had a long break before starting to play cRappyG like 2 weeks ago that's a bit too much imo.
The missile speed just makes it way to easy to pew pew.

As everyone knows I'm fuckin bad at this game and can't even beat Ody or Larvae in a duel...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 02:58:00 pm by sF_Guardian »
I don't want to give a feedback to molly neither i want to ban him,I wanted to give advise high authorities to take his admin rights.Panos you monkey wrench where would u put this topic enlighten me you cancer fuck.

Offline Prpavi

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1525
  • Infamy: 402
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • 私 わ 変態 です
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Prpavi, Prpafeee
Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2016, 05:04:06 pm »
0
Archery become easy mode coz of high missile speed. Thats why half of the server is an archers now.

Quite funny to hear coming form DRZ stack...
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
visitors can't see pics , please register or login