Author Topic: Mordhau  (Read 37454 times)

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Offline Xant

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #210 on: May 21, 2019, 02:16:19 pm »
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Pro scene is subjective to whats actually around, crpgs pro scene would be the tournament settings with the best clans because there wasnt anything else, i guess its not technically pro because you couldnt do it as a profession, but i assumed you would understand the point. And crpg has had some good players over the years so i thought it a fair estimate. Besides, how far do you have to go to find decent players? If you cant find them in an entire module of thousands of players i guess decent players i guess the argument doesnt matter because there are none to fill the position for ur assumptions.

And simultaneous attacks have to be very well timed in ored for the blocker to not be able to block both, which can be tricky when footwork can throw off timings.

Blocking a chamber isnt difficult, however going for a held attack expecting the opponent do defend but instead he swings as a chamber attempt is very hard to react to.

Yes, sometimes things play out differently than they look on paper. You could technically block forever, however that isnt reality. But that doesnt matter to you because muh objective gameplay.
cRPG had no pro scene, even talking about it is cringey. If you want a "subjective" pro scene, you have to look at Native, where there was actually some competitiveness and you needed skill to get in the best clans. cRPG actually had surprisingly few great players, you can almost count on one hand the people who could've competitively dueled some of the better Native duelists. But that kind of makes sense, because cRPG was always about casually grinding up your character, whereas on Native you had tons of people who did nothing but duel and play scrims. And in Warband, I for one thought casual stuff was more fun, in large part actually because of the lack of 1vX mechanics. Too low of a skill ceiling, no payoff. More fun to pubstomp.

And no, the timing does not have to be very good. You might be able to block two attacks in a row once, but it's not happening again, and it achieves nothing to do it once by lucky timing, you're just delaying your death for a second, it needs to be something that can be done consistently for you to have a chance. Except even that's not really enough, because you also need to do damage to your enemies, not only block.

Again, it doesn't even matter if you catch someone off-guard once with your chamber, you're still getting hit by the other player, and now neither of them is ever going to fall for a chamber again in the fight.

It's very easy to "block forever" if you're the 2 in a 2v1 scenario, because like said, the 1 has no realistic options for bypassing anyone's defense. You NEED good feints, and you need to do that over and over again, just to score one kill. But no one is going to let you go through a feint dance when they've got the numerical advantage.

In Mordhau, you regen health and stamina with kills, you can slash through people, you can actually realistically score hits without needing to spend several seconds feinting, you can block multiple different attacks at the same time and in succession, you become unflinchable after a successful parry. These are vital mechanics for a realistic chance at a 1vX against decent opponents. You'll note that there are both defensive and offensive 1vX mechanics, both of which are entirely lacking in Warband. There is NOTHING preventing a spam victory in WB. In Mordhau, you have to be mindful of getting hit and spamming, because the 1 in the 1vX can do full damage to you through your teammate, and he won't be flinched even if you do damage to him. You also have to seriously focus on your defense, because defending attacks from the 1 is only slightly easier than it would be in a 1v1, whereas in Warband it's total child's play, because the only realistic option for bypassing defense is entirely unavailable.

The objective fact of the matter is that in Warband you can only ever damage one person at a time, and block one person at a time, and that sets a hard limit for the skill ceiling in 1vXs, and it becomes very easy to simply spam for win, because there is no punish for it. And in Mordhau, none of that is true. Not to mention the actual probability of landing a hit without feints in each game.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #211 on: May 21, 2019, 02:27:56 pm »
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cRPG had no pro scene, even talking about it is cringey. If you want a "subjective" pro scene, you have to look at Native, where there was actually some competitiveness and you needed skill to get in the best clans. cRPG actually had surprisingly few great players, you can almost count on one hand the people who could've competitively dueled some of the better Native duelists. But that kind of makes sense, because cRPG was always about casually grinding up your character, whereas on Native you had tons of people who did nothing but duel and play scrims. And in Warband, I for one thought casual stuff was more fun, in large part actually because of the lack of 1vX mechanics. Too low of a skill ceiling, no payoff. More fun to pubstomp.

And no, the timing does not have to be very good. You might be able to block two attacks in a row once, but it's not happening again, and it achieves nothing to do it once by lucky timing, you're just delaying your death for a second, it needs to be something that can be done consistently for you to have a chance. Except even that's not really enough, because you also need to do damage to your enemies, not only block.

Again, it doesn't even matter if you catch someone off-guard once with your chamber, you're still getting hit by the other player, and now neither of them is ever going to fall for a chamber again in the fight.

It's very easy to "block forever" if you're the 2 in a 2v1 scenario, because like said, the 1 has no realistic options for bypassing anyone's defense. You NEED good feints, and you need to do that over and over again, just to score one kill. But no one is going to let you go through a feint dance when they've got the numerical advantage.

In Mordhau, you regen health and stamina with kills, you can slash through people, you can actually realistically score hits without needing to spend several seconds feinting, you can block multiple different attacks at the same time and in succession, you become unflinchable after a successful parry. These are vital mechanics for a realistic chance at a 1vX against decent opponents. You'll note that there are both defensive and offensive 1vX mechanics, both of which are entirely lacking in Warband. There is NOTHING preventing a spam victory in WB. In Mordhau, you have to be mindful of getting hit and spamming, because the 1 in the 1vX can do full damage to you through your teammate, and he won't be flinched even if you do damage to him. You also have to seriously focus on your defense, because defending attacks from the 1 is only slightly easier than it would be in a 1v1, whereas in Warband it's total child's play, because the only realistic option for bypassing defense is entirely unavailable.

The objective fact of the matter is that in Warband you can only ever damage one person at a time, and block one person at a time, and that sets a hard limit for the skill ceiling in 1vXs, and it becomes very easy to simply spam for win, because there is no punish for it. And in Mordhau, none of that is true. Not to mention the actual probability of landing a hit without feints in each game.

Alright, your theorizing and objective gameplay mechanics have me convinced. Only through decent players can we actually judge the game, even though there are only a few, barely a handful around.

Its easy lol, just block everything 4Head
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Offline Xant

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #212 on: May 21, 2019, 02:29:39 pm »
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If you think it's difficult to block attacks that aren't feinted, I don't know what to tell you.
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Offline Golem

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #213 on: May 21, 2019, 02:45:58 pm »
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One thing is for sure, Bannerlord will have better mounted combat.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #214 on: May 21, 2019, 03:13:47 pm »
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If you think it's difficult to block attacks that aren't feinted, I don't know what to tell you.

You dont need to tell me much, mordhau simply doesnt offer gameplay exciting enough to bother learning and crpg is dead while native is still exciting, it also lacks rpg elements to keep me invested. Bannerlords will inevitably screw up what warband managed to become if it ever releases. Fighting games is the best experience currently by far.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #215 on: May 21, 2019, 03:22:29 pm »
+1
I don't like fighting games because I want dueling skill to have context. That's why melee slashers are great. You have 1v1s, and then you can translate that skill to big battles that play very differently, and have objectives and interesting map design, etc. And the potential for team-based competitive play, of course. Makes the entire game feel like it has more depth and content. And, well, it kind of does, by definition.
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Offline njames89

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #216 on: May 21, 2019, 03:25:31 pm »
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It's starting to get a bit stale without new maps and new weapons. They said there are 3 maps coming though.

Offline Xant

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #217 on: May 21, 2019, 03:31:43 pm »
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I've heard streamers saying 2. One is supposed to be a big city map, could be interesting. I think more than anything they need to do something about Frontline. Or add a Siege gamemode. Or expand on Skirmish, make it more like cRPG battle instead of the super small scale thing it is right now. None of the game modes are as interesting to me as cRPG battle was, apart from duel. I think that's mostly because of the pacing. Frontline feels chaotic and your actions feel meaningless, Skirmish is too small and over too fast.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #218 on: May 21, 2019, 04:16:08 pm »
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I don't like fighting games because I want dueling skill to have context. That's why melee slashers are great. You have 1v1s, and then you can translate that skill to big battles that play very differently, and have objectives and interesting map design, etc. And the potential for team-based competitive play, of course. Makes the entire game feel like it has more depth and content. And, well, it kind of does, by definition.

I am of the same opinion, however a game with team based combat and such has to consider the gameplay out of that perspective which also limits it quite a bit. Its a different kind of depth, and ive found team based gameplay to be a huge frustration rather than reward, while properly trying to learn a fighting game is much more rewarding. The depth of gameplay in Tekken far exceeds mordhau, but i will never have to learn to use it with anyone else on my side and so it allows for more quirks and options. Ultimately it gets more interesting to me competitively, casually however id prefer teams.
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Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #219 on: May 22, 2019, 03:10:23 am »
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about grunt: Good to know. For me it helped a lot getting into the habit of reacting as late as possible, though of course i noticed that for most stabs the grunt comes too late. I'm not aiming to play competitive, though. Game is huge fun for an hour or so in the evening.

I think more than anything they need to do something about Frontline. Or add a Siege gamemode. Or expand on Skirmish, make it more like cRPG battle instead of the super small scale thing it is right now. None of the game modes are as interesting to me as cRPG battle was, apart from duel. I think that's mostly because of the pacing. Frontline feels chaotic and your actions feel meaningless, Skirmish is too small and over too fast.

This so much.

Offline Torben

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #220 on: May 24, 2019, 01:02:35 pm »
+1
so how does this ol game compare to crpg?  is it worth a try?
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Offline njames89

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #221 on: May 24, 2019, 01:58:16 pm »
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I'd say worth a try just for the combat mechanics alone. It was 30$ and I already have about 30 hours of gameplay before it started to get a bit stale.

The moments where you are in battle in a 3v1 and you spin to chop off two heads, turn to parry someone then knock their weapon away and kill them make it worth it.

Graphics are nice too and I keep hearing that more gear and maps are coming and eventually mod tools.

That being said it does not replace cRPG in the sense of strategus or the long term playability of the retirement/gen/heirloom system.

Offline djavo

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #222 on: May 24, 2019, 03:29:59 pm »
+1
It's a poor mans bannerlord. But life is short so try it... :D
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Offline Xant

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #223 on: May 24, 2019, 04:43:13 pm »
+1
I like it more the more I play it. Dueling is way more fun and involved than in Warband. Pretty much what James said, but it has active developers who listen to the community (one of the best things about the game is that the combat developer is a former high level comp player himself, and regularly speaks with current top players), so hopefully we see improvement in the battle modes. They can be fun, but they just feel a bit shallow at the moment. There's also an in-built progression system that can give a sense of progression, but they actually made it a bit too easy to unlock whatever you want, but the chassis is there for future updates.

Also, they're releasing the mod tools soon, which might fix that issue as well if good mods come around. I think Mordhau frontline/skirmish is more fun than vanilla Warband battles. The physics and gore and the weight behind hits is extremely satisfying in large scale battles.

It's only a poor man's Bannerlord if you're waiting for Bannerlord SP, otherwise have fun playing with 300ms feint lockouts against people who have 2000 hours in M&B. Bannerlord MP is dead to me if they don't make the combat system harder, and from the looks of it it's only going to be much easier.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 04:49:52 pm by Xant »
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Offline njames89

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Re: Mordhau
« Reply #224 on: May 24, 2019, 05:54:48 pm »
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The modding potential is huge. They have already shown for example here: https://giant.gfycat.com/ScalyRigidGiraffe.webm the ability to mod the weapons into for example in this case, lightsabers.

It looks great and if there are some quality mods that start coming out for the game adding community created maps, weapons, armours, etc, I could see mordhau retaining a lot of its population/success.