Author Topic: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?  (Read 16246 times)

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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2015, 12:54:18 pm »
+2
(click to show/hide)

No one ever supports a buff thats not directly buffing whatever they enjoy playing. The majority of this mod wants every class nerfed, polearm right swing? nerf it. 2h thrust? nerf it. Archers? nerf. Crossbow? nerf. etc etc.
 An archer can be at the same "no risk" as a HR. Simply by staying on a hill super far away, having a bit higher than average athletics. No infantry will catch up. Cav can catch up sure, but then it would be at the same point as HR which are also slower than other cav. So i dont see the reasoning here, except that foot archers basically do more damage, have less skillpoints spent on riding+HA so they can easily have melee aswell.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2015, 02:11:50 pm »
+1
Its not quite the same. Archers are encouraged to play as a team together in sniping spots. They have team mates who put up siege shields, melee defending against cav/ other melee etc. Its a cooperative gameplay that people don't find quite as annoying as someone who takes pot shots then disappears before they can take any damage in return. HA/HX have inherent strengths in their kit against immobile ranged (xbows especially, but archers have to stand still to shoot too), plus they can kite and shoot horses + kite and shoot melee. Most archers are now taking strength so they can deal decent damage too, so they can't kite anywhere like a HA/HX can

The bottom line is the gameplay suffers for the majority of the playerbase, and it can occur from just one or 2 players just because of the class they choose to play. The counterplay people often talk about is literally standing by a flag (so fun, and only occurs at the end of the round and even then they just bump and shoot) or hiding and hoping ranged kill their horse. Meanwhile everyone else is actually playing a game while you're standing around. Then add that it artificially inflates a player's potential impact in a round. Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:15:08 pm by Grumbs »
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Offline Krax

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 02:29:28 pm »
+3
Its not quite the same. Archers are encouraged to play as a team together in sniping spots. They have team mates who put up siege shields, melee defending against cav/ other melee etc. Its a cooperative gameplay that people don't find quite as annoying as someone who takes pot shots then disappears before they can take any damage in return. HA/HX have inherent strengths in their kit against immobile ranged (xbows especially, but archers have to stand still to shoot too), plus they can kite and shoot horses + kite and shoot melee. Most archers are now taking strength so they can deal decent damage too, so they can't kite anywhere like a HA/HX can

The bottom line is the gameplay suffers for the majority of the playerbase, and it can occur from just one or 2 players just because of the class they choose to play. The counterplay people often talk about is literally standing by a flag (so fun, and only occurs at the end of the round and even then they just bump and shoot) or hiding and hoping ranged kill their horse. Meanwhile everyone else is actually playing a game while you're standing around. Then add that it artificially inflates a player's potential impact in a round. Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle

again you try to tie down the class to a player, iv allways played the class as a support class, i bump for melee (this i do alot) or hunt cav... your just talking all the time about what happens if im the last one alive... this is a team game and iv allways played it as a team game. Yeah there have been times iv acted as an ass.. but mostly i try to win, BUT with the increase in reload time and interupts i need to go away to reload. Dont come here and tell me any of you just give up when you are last. again its a team game and if you lost your counters, then meh what you supposed to do..... also one archer can EASYLY counter me.... my horse takes around 2 Arrows.... and its not hard to hit and he can put out 5-6 Arrows before i can reload.... and my bolt dont even kill with HS on cloth so....

also have i ever been rude to you... you seem to sling alot of shit for no reason.

Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 02:36:39 pm »
0
No one ever supports a buff thats not directly buffing whatever they enjoy playing. The majority of this mod wants every class nerfed, polearm right swing? nerf it. 2h thrust? nerf it. Archers? nerf. Crossbow? nerf. etc etc.
 An archer can be at the same "no risk" as a HR. Simply by staying on a hill super far away, having a bit higher than average athletics. No infantry will catch up. Cav can catch up sure, but then it would be at the same point as HR which are also slower than other cav. So i dont see the reasoning here, except that foot archers basically do more damage, have less skillpoints spent on riding+HA so they can easily have melee aswell.

Differences between EU and NA come into sight here, I think.

My experience is solely on NA1, a place where I've not seen an archer that would be able to outrun a balanced build melee player without dropping his equipment. Perhaps EU has high agility archers that can and do kite. I haven't got a clue, but I feel bad for you if this is true!

Even the archers that could break even in speed with a balanced build player will tend to fight in melee, as well.

However, a ranged cavalry player, by the very nature of the class, forces melee players to either die (of course damage is rather low, so this will be tedious), or counter the class in ways that Grumbs just outlined below: hiding, waiting.

I feel that any buff to range cavalry classes will promote popular use of them. Even if the effect is slight, it will manifest itself in decreased majority satisfaction with the average NA/EU1 experience. In a game already struggling to hold many's interest, god forbid speaking of new blood, I cannot consent to any changes that I believe will adversely affect the average population of the battle server(s).

I reckon you'd say it is a good thing that the team behind changes in this mod doesn't require my consent to scratch their own ass and let out a nasty fart in my presence, much less to make changes in their own mod.

It probably IS a good thing. I've got some interesting ideas involving euthanisation and cleansing of all HA/HX, you know...



Edit: Oh, and that first line just ain't true! Absolutely none of my arguments involve balance; they involve general health of cRPG, sometimes considered to be on life support itself.

I'll listen and potentially support buffs to any class that aren't ranged cav. These classes have either a net neutral or net positive impact on the battle server. I've not been a real lobbyist for ANY sorts of buffs or nerfs. I tend to be very content with balance. All modestly-skilled players and above should have little trouble performing adequately with any melee loadout.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 03:05:01 pm by Sandersson Jankins »
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 03:13:52 pm »
0
also have i ever been rude to you... you seem to sling alot of shit for no reason.

I don't have much of an opinion about you. I just think its selfish to want buffs for a class you know is universally reviled in the community. Net positive fun should be strongly considered like Jankins says. How many stand to gain and how many stands to lose when it comes to game enjoyment?
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2015, 04:22:54 pm »
+1
Its not quite the same. Archers are encouraged to play as a team together in sniping spots. They have team mates who put up siege shields, melee defending against cav/ other melee etc. Its a cooperative gameplay that people don't find quite as annoying as someone who takes pot shots then disappears before they can take any damage in return. HA/HX have inherent strengths in their kit against immobile ranged (xbows especially, but archers have to stand still to shoot too), plus they can kite and shoot horses + kite and shoot melee. Most archers are now taking strength so they can deal decent damage too, so they can't kite anywhere like a HA/HX can

The bottom line is the gameplay suffers for the majority of the playerbase, and it can occur from just one or 2 players just because of the class they choose to play. The counterplay people often talk about is literally standing by a flag (so fun, and only occurs at the end of the round and even then they just bump and shoot) or hiding and hoping ranged kill their horse. Meanwhile everyone else is actually playing a game while you're standing around. Then add that it artificially inflates a player's potential impact in a round. Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle

My point was that people are saying that HX/HA has no counter, but they have the same counters as foot ranged.

I dont mind holding flags, if such a minor thing can help make other builds playably balanced then its no problem. I'd like for the mod to be viable towards all classes that players want to play, as long as it actually is balanced. I hardly think the mod will struggle with some horse ranged on the server, everytime i see one now i simply either charge it because i wont really take any damage from it, or just ignore and find flags/other enemies. They really dont do anything besides bumps. I think flags are an excellent solution to a lot of the annoyance issues, ladders should be added back into game, since roofmonkeys would get countered by flags now anyways.

It doesnt matter if players cant play anything else than horseranged, if they like to play horse ranged and are good at it then why shouldnt they? Why should they have to play something they are unable to play?
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Offline BlackxBird

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2015, 03:36:44 pm »
+3
I guess the majority of people hate horsearcher/crossbow not cuz of them being too op (or ever were op). They hate them cuz they simply delay every single round they survive. In my opinion that class can be buffed as much as anyone wants to, but make a rule that if there are in one team only horseranged left that they have to dismount.

oh and hate more. With every round u ride around as last guy and do kinda nothing, you are rude to the whole server. Ive seen it often that like 50 players wait for one, just cuz that one does not want to die (even in rounds which are totally impossible to win). And Ive seen u doing it already on every round on a whole map.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2015, 03:57:16 pm »
+1
Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle

Bit unfair putting niluk in the same boat, I've seen him do very well with melee builds. I'm sure he'd much rather go back to playing his troll delay forever while harvesting valour build, but he doesn't need it to do well.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2015, 05:26:37 pm »
0
I guess the majority of people hate horsearcher/crossbow not cuz of them being too op (or ever were op). They hate them cuz they simply delay every single round they survive. In my opinion that class can be buffed as much as anyone wants to, but make a rule that if there are in one team only horseranged left that they have to dismount.

oh and hate more. With every round u ride around as last guy and do kinda nothing, you are rude to the whole server. Ive seen it often that like 50 players wait for one, just cuz that one does not want to die (even in rounds which are totally impossible to win). And Ive seen u doing it already on every round on a whole map.

That used to be the case, then we got flags buffed to make them actually usefull against delayers. I think people just need to realize the usefulness of holding flags, but too many times i see people leave them to try to catch whatever nuisances that are alive.
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Offline Krax

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2015, 05:50:22 pm »
0
oh and hate more. With every round u ride around as last guy and do kinda nothing, you are rude to the whole server. Ive seen it often that like 50 players wait for one, just cuz that one does not want to die (even in rounds which are totally impossible to win). And Ive seen u doing it already on every round on a whole map.

cmon even you cant really mean this... that you need to just stand still and die if you are last.. how many times have you done this ? 99% of all the players fight until the end no matter then chances of survival. only one i can remember doing this is maklelelelelelele

Offline BlackxBird

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2015, 06:34:34 pm »
+1
mate it depends. If Im a melee fighting 5 enemies I won't just go fullretard charge and die, I will try to win the round. But when there is no way to get valour and no way to win the round and Im horsearcher I 100 percently dismount and fight in melee.

And I did not mean u have to stand still, dismounting and trying some melee stuff is totally okay, atleast when there are no ranged in the enemey team left! When there is an archer who's to stupid to hit u nobody will be angry about u, they will flame about the archer!

Offline Angantyr

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2015, 07:06:53 pm »
0
Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle
Probably only a matter of training. I was in the same Native clan as Hate_More for years and we considered him one of the better lancers of the game. Of course Native is not cRPG but I guess he just likes HX now.

Offline Ikarus

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2015, 08:52:47 pm »
0
Horse xbow is so weak nowadays it´s ridiculous to say that the class could be conisdered as a threat.

Nevertheless, I doubt that it will receive any buffs soon since nobody plays it and lots of people don´t like ranged cav in general, no matter if HA or HX. I don´t know how I´d buff this class so that it´s balanced again. I think people are also afraid to buff it because if you do it wrong, too many players might start with it and that would be as terrible as back when tons of people played HA when it was buffed. That was a tuff time for melee.

Typical nerfed-to-death class (although I think that the nerf on HX wasn´t intended, the class was simply forgotten that it was there, which is a bit sad  :lol:)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 08:55:49 pm by Ikarus »
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Offline Krax

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2015, 09:34:03 pm »
0
mate it depends. If Im a melee fighting 5 enemies I won't just go fullretard charge and die, I will try to win the round. But when there is no way to get valour and no way to win the round and Im horsearcher I 100 percently dismount and fight in melee.

And I did not mean u have to stand still, dismounting and trying some melee stuff is totally okay, atleast when there are no ranged in the enemey team left! When there is an archer who's to stupid to hit u nobody will be angry about u, they will flame about the archer!

Why must i dismount when that is my main attack.... if its time you are thinking about then agrue with me to remove the 50% added reload time. I allways and allways did go for bump kills when i was last that way melee has a chance to kill me. but i need to reload... else its just stupid.
There are rules inplace for delays and flags so there really isnt an issue.

When i was full hx i had 0 ps 0 wpf so dismounting was more or less like asking to die, and i needed to use all the points for hx to make up for alot of the nerfs...
The nerf that really annoyed me tho was the riding speed... that killed the class for me... i dont really care about points or kills. i like huning cav and bumping for melee. The amount of shit i need to put up with for just playing a class is amazing.

Offline BlackxBird

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Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2015, 09:59:05 pm »
0
jep. Thats what I want. In the end of the round, when you are alone against 10 u should fucking dismount and not waste everybodies time! There are actually classes which can actually do shit then, but as horsexbow u are totally useless in those situations.

I can totally feel what u feel atm, I loved horsearchery, the decrease of speed killed it completely! When a tincan 1H cav is faster than a horse archer with a rouncey/courser u are totally fucked up. I think it is bullshit that they nerfed hx and ha until the total death of the class, was by far the funniest thing at all! BUT what I fucking hate are unreachable assholes running around and shooting when flags are bugged/the inf is not able to go to the flag due to low health or low armor. Nowadays it's not such a big deal due to the low horse hp and the incredible amount of ranged.

edit: U played normal crossbow on ur own. Now imagine a rock thrower who does 5% dmg with every hit runs around u in a 1 vs 1 and u are not able to do anything cuz he is way faster than u. U can just stand there and die or run around like a retard.
And now u imagine being a inf in a 1 vs 1 against a horsecrossbow, who does more dmg and is totally unreachable.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:02:09 pm by BlackxBird »