Meanwhile in Ukraine

[serr]

While I agree that they are not much better, I really like all the work they are doing in parliament right now. Yes, probably they are not better as people and they came to power for personal gain as well, but I believe they are smarter than Yanukovich and they must be much more careful, which is very good.

[Kafein]

Even if the new people in charge are not much better than the old, it's very important that the population asserts its power to overthrow a government. Representative democracy doesn't guarantee that the elected will do anything good. The thing that actually guarantees that those in charge don't turn into dictators is the fear that if they don't behave they might end up in a gutter the next day. The population needs to show that it is more powerful than the government.

[Butan]

Even if the new people in charge are not much better than the old, it's very important that the population asserts its power to overthrow a government. Representative democracy doesn't guarantee that the elected will do anything good. The thing that actually guarantees that those in charge don't turn into dictators is the fear that if they don't behave they might end up in a gutter the next day. The population needs to show that it is more powerful than the government.

Yep, if they stop now, it means that they didnt accomplish anything than national unstability, which re-opened the gates of the old time (Tymochenko) and gave credence to challengers (Klitschko) but noone new really, and I doubt they are the innocent and naive politicians they try to look like.

[Kafein]

Yep, if they stop now, it means that they didnt accomplish anything than national unstability, which re-opened the gates of the old time (Tymochenko) and gave credence to challengers (Klitschko) but noone new really, and I doubt they are the innocent and naive politicians they try to look like.

The problem is that to make a reasonable choice you have to assume you will never end up with a good leader. Never. Yet many people always vote with the intention of making the good candidate win when really they don't want any of them to win. The best way to get good and efficient leadership is to make sure whoever gets elected has a good reason to actually do it, or at least not do bad things. And there's no better way to acheive that than to make sure they are punished somehow if they fuck things up.

[Thomek]

Thanks Segd. Yeah my father is an RT fan and old communist. I do get exposed to it! (And at times it's even a great channel to show another side than what the mainstream flock of western media shows..)

Anyway, what about Klitchko? I really liked him before all this. Is he incorruptible? Will he set a new standard for Ukrainian politicians? What you think?

[Daunt_Flockula]

fucking hell

http://ars-himmel.livejournal.com/127591.html

I've seen this in the comment section, it says these are 'fake berkut soldiers' with yellow stripes.

(click to show/hide)

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What's up with that, is this true?

Roughly the same shit happened here in Turkey during the Gezi protests. At times, hundreds of police officers appeared without identity numbers on the back of their helmets (which is mandatory for reporting abuse and illegal not to use). Those times ended up being the worst for protesters. There are serious doubts that they were enthusiastic government dogs who were given police attire to don. Also, they didn't even disguise themselves from time to time. There are numerous videos showing herds of ordinary looking swines with nailed clubs following the police line closely. They chased protesters down into dark alleys and comfortably beat them up under total police protection. One such group of civil swines even beat a 19 year-old university student to death under coordination of an undercover cop.

Yes, all cops are truly genuine bastards. Just saying, this is what the world has come to. If another uprising breaks out anywhere else, we will just see further examples of national security forces being used as hired murderers. Murderers of their own people that is.

Personally, I still can't get over the horror that happened here. Things seem to be quite grim over there in Ukraine too. People lost their lives. Still, they managed to get the government to back off. The octopus-headed fascist that haunts us doesn't look like he has any honor inside him to respond to a large-scale uprising the way an honorable man is supposed. It is obvious that more terrible days are awaiting us.

[pepejul]

is there a way between fascism and corruption ?    (don't answer me Religion please !)

[Daunt_Flockula]

is there a way between fascism and corruption ?    (don't answer me Religion please !)

In my opinion, fascism initially is born out of the sense of self-righteousness, which eventually grows enough to become the tumor that is fascism. When the poison of self-righteousness taints the soul of an individual, society or nation even, anything becomes legitimate for them to reassure their allegedly rightful position and suppress whoever they think is the wrong party involved.

[Kafein]

is there a way between fascism and corruption ?    (don't answer me Religion please !)

Don't you know the rules? The third faction is always the aliens.

[Butan]

I would welcome such pieces of information if you didnt put the "all cops are pigs" on top of it Flockula.

Also the comments on how policemen are hired to murder their own people during uprising/revolts/demonstrations/etc, notwithstanding the term "murderer", the policemen ARE SUPPOSED to intervene inside the country which hires them. Thus their job is actually doing actions "against" their own people. Or do you suggest the policemen should only arrest/detain outsiders?


Police = Ministry of Security (interior)
Military = Ministry of Defense (exterior)


What would be exceptionnal is sending policemen to participate in an invasion, or sending military to do anti-riot stuff. Then we can discuss ad nauseam the legitimacy of using force (either proportionned or disproportionned force, quite subjective matter too), but there is no point discussing why policemen are where they are atm, and doing what they are doing.


I know you're not discovering those facts, just pointing bad arguments.

[Daunt_Flockula]

The police forces in my country, dear Butan, were not even counter attacked by the protesters as they were in Ukraine (Ukrainians did the better thing I guess). Still they murdered their own people, mostly very young university students. The ones they didn't murder they gave popped eyes with gas shells intenionally aimed at the eyes. Hell they even shot a 14 year-old in the head with a gas shell from a very close distance at a time when there wasn't even a protest and the boy was simply out to buy some bread from the bakery. All alone and not signalling any threat or anything. He has been in comatose status for months.

Well, you may have your point and believe that I have bad arguements. Ok, let us not call all cops bastards everywhere. But nobody can change the fact that all of them are bastards over here. What you don't know is that a huge majority of our current police officers are nobodies in their twenties who have no skills or intellect whatsoever and were mass recruited within the last decade in return for pledging full obedience to our prime tumor. They are indeed bastards. They aren't there to protect the people. They are there to protect our very own prime tumor.

There is no legitimacy at all to be talked about here. It may not be apparent from outside but Turkey is running towards complete dictatorship. And sadly, it is a fact that our policemen are hired murderers at the moment.

[Xant]

It's extremely childish to claim that "all" of the police officers in your country are "bastards."

Real life is not Lord of the Rings and there are no orcs and no Sauron.

[Daunt_Flockula]

It's extremely childish to claim that "all" of the police officers in your country are "bastards."

Real life is not Lord of the Rings and there are no orcs and no Sauron.

Oh, Xant is here to blow everything into bebop because he is the one who knows it all.

Anyway, I am withdrawing from the thread. It is about Ukraine and making the mistake of wasting time with Xant won't do it any good after all.

[Butan]

What you say will always happens when there is of armed people involved (either both side or one) and noone give up. It happens in democratic and dictatorship countries. I would say the only difference is the media coverage : if there is none and noone cares, the ruling caste can feel more free to act harshly toward acts of rebellions.

[Xant]

Oh, Xant is here to blow everything into bebop because he is the one who knows it all.

Anyway, I am withdrawing from the thread. It is about Ukraine and making the mistake of wasting time with Xant won't do it any good after all.

Yeah, I do know better than someone who believes in Orcs and Absolute Evil, you're right about that.