Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 485509 times)

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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10095 on: July 14, 2015, 10:14:25 pm »
0
Yes, you utter fucking retard, because Russia is waging war on them. Seriously, you are so deluded and detached from reality it's amazing. When a massive country attacks you, you don't have the luxury of denying people willing to fight for you. This isn't hard to understand for anyone else but Russians.
If Russia would atack them it would be end very fast. And maybe you want to say that Putin started ATO and made revolution with the forces of Praviy Sector

Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10096 on: July 14, 2015, 11:09:37 pm »
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If Russia would atack them it would be end very fast. And maybe you want to say that Putin started ATO and made revolution with the forces of Praviy Sector
Wow, you're still denying Russia's attacked them. And you're making fun of "western media" for being slow. Jesus Christ, you're dumb.
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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10097 on: July 14, 2015, 11:12:13 pm »
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Wow, you're still denying Russia's attacked them. And you're making fun of "western media" for being slow. Jesus Christ, you're dumb.
Where Russia atacked? Crimea? I already wrote about that you dumb. Do you agree that current government used Praviy sector to make revolution? Or you deny that?

Offline Casimir

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10098 on: July 14, 2015, 11:17:06 pm »
+3
If Russia would atack them it would be end very fast. And maybe you want to say that Putin started ATO and made revolution with the forces of Praviy Sector

Russia denied it's involvement in Crimea something which it has been proved beyond any doubt that it was involved with.  How can you continue to believe that the Kremlin has no involvement in the continuation of war in eastern Ukraine, it is simply impossible that a group of separatists could continue to fight for this long without receiving external support; simple things like ammunition and basic medical supplies would have run out months ago and their are multiple accounts which indicate direct involvement by Russian armed forces.
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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10099 on: July 14, 2015, 11:25:28 pm »
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Russia denied it's involvement in Crimea something which it has been proved beyond any doubt that it was involved with.  How can you continue to believe that the Kremlin has no involvement in the continuation of war in eastern Ukraine, it is simply impossible that a group of separatists could continue to fight for this long without receiving external support; simple things like ammunition and basic medical supplies would have run out months ago and their are multiple accounts which indicate direct involvement by Russian armed forces.
Why you so blind guys, where did I say that Kremlin doesn't have any involvemnet, stop think out what I didn't say. OK?

Offline Casimir

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10100 on: July 14, 2015, 11:27:47 pm »
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So you admit that Russia is propagating war in eastern Ukraine in order to achieve the expansion of the Russian federation?  Do you also accept that such an act is abhorrent, illegal and down right unacceptable?
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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10101 on: July 14, 2015, 11:36:09 pm »
-1
So you admit that Russia is propagating war in eastern Ukraine in order to achieve the expansion of the Russian federation?  Do you also accept that such an act is abhorrent, illegal and down right unacceptable?
I admit that Russian couldn't accept the loss of military bases in Crimea, and Russia not interested in war in Eastern Ukraine, but I think that they help separatists with ammunition, also there are a lot of volunteers from Russia. Ofcourse all this things are illegal, but I want to say that revolution was illegal first. Do you accept that armed revolution that was made by the armed forces of Praviy sector was illegal and unacceptable?

Offline Casimir

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10102 on: July 14, 2015, 11:46:57 pm »
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Absolutely, I in no way condone armed violence and I find the entire behaviour in Ukraine from both sides to be absolutely disgrace.  If Ukrainians want to move closer to the EU/NATO or EEU/Russia that is their choice and should be undertaken in a free, fair and democratic way.  I try my best to search Russian, Ukrainian and other sources before I conclude on what goes on in this tragic conflict, and I do not condone the behaviour of any side involved (including that of NATO/EU).  I personally believe that overwhelmingly the ones who have done the most to prevent an end to the violence have been the separatists in eastern Ukraine, backed by Russia, who are fully aware that under a free and fair democratic system they would not be able to achieve their goals and as such resort to violence at the cost of thousands of innocent lives.

I couldn't give a damn about the politics of the Ukraine, its on the other side of the continent to me and has no immediate impact on my life, although i am pro-European and my personal political belief is that European integration is a good thing i do not agree with the way in which the current Ukrainian government came to power nor with what they have done since they did. That being said I also believe that Russia is clearly the greater aggressor here as it has violated national sovereignty and self determination, annexed land illegally and attempted at every opportunity to deny it's direct involvement in the crisis despite concrete evidence to the contrary.

The legality of the Ukrainian Maidan square revolution was a Ukrainian issue not a Russian one, Russia took it upon itself to become involved in this conflict without regard to national sovereignty. Just because an act is illegal does not mean that another country has the right to become involved; the age old truth is that two wrongs do not make a right.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 11:50:14 pm by Casimir »
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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10103 on: July 14, 2015, 11:52:50 pm »
-2
Well I agree, and I believe that if USA or EU would condemn this revolution instead of supporting it, forced them to make everything democratically, there won't be any war and Crimea would stay in Ukraine.
As I said before Russia couldn't accept the loss of military bases in Crimea, and this what new power wanted to do, so Russia involved in this conflict anyhow

Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10104 on: July 14, 2015, 11:55:04 pm »
0
Hurr durr no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine hurr durrrr Russian special forces got lost because of bad maps hurr durr I'm DonNicko with the IQ of the average russian.
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Offline Vovka

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10105 on: July 14, 2015, 11:57:56 pm »
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Hurr durr no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine hurr durrrr Russian special forces got lost because of bad maps hurr durr I'm DonNicko with the IQ of the average russian.
Hurr durr Im Xant the spartan gimme tits
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10106 on: July 15, 2015, 12:08:02 am »
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Wow, that was boring even by your standards.
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Offline Casimir

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10107 on: July 15, 2015, 12:11:00 am »
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Well I agree, and I believe that if USA or EU would condemn this revolution instead of supporting it, forced them to make everything democratically, there won't be any war and Crimea would stay in Ukraine.
As I said before Russia couldn't accept the loss of military bases in Crimea, and this what new power wanted to do, so Russia involved in this conflict anyhow

Crimea is almost irrelevant at this stage, it was not for Russia to decide what another country does with its sovereign territory just as it was not for Ukraine to unilaterally revoke Russian access to the black sea. As a member of the UN security council the Kremlin should have sought a legal, internationally recognised solution to this issue rather than instigating an illegal annexation. Furthermore the continued support of separatists and involvement of the Kremlin in eastern Ukraine is of no relation to the military bases in Crimea and is simple for the direct expansion of their sphere of influence.

It is clear to me why Russia would feel threatened by the envelopment of NATO in the post cold-war period (the continual expansion of NATO is something which I think is pathetic and clearly directly inflammatory to Russia as a whole); however at the same time if the Kremlin is not willing to respect the rights of its neighbours to choose their own future, it cannot expect to have its own wishes respected either.  Putin is more than willing to flex his military muscles (and boy do I love a Machiavellian politician) but if he is undermining the reputation that Russia had earned of being a progressive and forward looking country since the collapse of the USSR.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10108 on: July 15, 2015, 01:52:24 am »
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Casimir.
In a perfect world I'd ask.. why can't RF keep its bases in Crimea?  Why expand NATO when it's primary purpose has disappeared?

The answer to both of these questions, has to do with how RF do politics. They never really truly understood that the Baltics, and now Ukraine, was lost to them. They kept up their realpolitik of crazy deals and bullying of old. The whole of eastern europe didn't get invited to NATO as much as they knocked on the door and shouted LET US IN!! They had to work and adapt for years to get access. It was not an open door, they had to earn it.

Crimea is a masterpiece of military/political manipulation. Ukraine KNEW that RF wanted it back, they knew RF could take it easily. That's why their right wing politicians couldn't keep it cool and and wanted to get them out asap. RF realized the danger, pulled out a takeover plan from the drawer and simply used the situation to their advantage. With the confidence of  the elegant Crimea takeover they tried to improvise the same in Ukraine, but settled for having a dagger constantly in the UKR side in stead.
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Offline Casimir

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #10109 on: July 15, 2015, 02:09:24 am »
-1
Casimir.
In a perfect world I'd ask.. why can't RF keep its bases in Crimea?  Why expand NATO when it's primary purpose has disappeared?

The answer to both of these questions, has to do with how RF do politics. They never really truly understood that the Baltics, and now Ukraine, was lost to them. They kept up their realpolitik of crazy deals and bullying of old. The whole of eastern europe didn't get invited to NATO as much as they knocked on the door and shouted LET US IN!! They had to work and adapt for years to get access. It was not an open door, they had to earn it.

Crimea is a masterpiece of military/political manipulation. Ukraine KNEW that RF wanted it back, they knew RF could take it easily. That's why their right wing politicians couldn't keep it cool and and wanted to get them out asap. RF realized the danger, pulled out a takeover plan from the drawer and simply used the situation to their advantage. With the confidence of  the elegant Crimea takeover they tried to improvise the same in Ukraine, but settled for having a dagger constantly in the UKR side in stead.

As I see it NATO's primary purpose is and always has been the projection of US led power across the globe in the service of 'western interests'.  Whether the ex-Warsaw pact states were freely invited or had to earn their membership is irrelevant, the expansion of any military alliance on such a scale is an act of innate hostility and provocation.   If the tides were turned the west would have reacted exactly the same as Russia has done.  Crimea would have been a master-class if the whole affair hadn't been such a massive diplomatic disaster on the strategic scale; I guess you just can't get away with plain faced criminality, at least when western interests are directly threatened.
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