Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Kafein]

Why should we search for something else. My life works as it is. I am not some politician with the power to change things. Neither are most politicians, I guess.
Humans will always adapt to the circumstances presented. There is no "fight the system", simply cuz the system will always win, will always prevail, in one form or another. But the form itself barely has any influence nowadays. At least in the... well, how to call them... Western countries?
In Germany I can do whatever I like or I am capable of, more like it. The system gives everyone a chance, no matter which background the person comes from. Granted, some have it harder than others but that has always been that way and probably it won't ever change. Other countries might do a better job to grant everyone chances (looking at you Scandinavia) but that is not my reality.

My point is that humans adapt to the reality they live in and try to do the best in it's limitations. The only limiting is the system itself but that system isn't really depending on the political but the social system. When you're satisfied with your very own social situation and those close to you, there wouldn't be any need to change things, right?
All those reasons to change for "the greater good" are actually just reasons like "I am not satisfied with my own situation!".
Whatever provides 99% of the people with satisfaction will work.

I believe the world is evolving towards a globalised political structure gradually. We will reach it eventually as long as prosperity keeps on increasing, so there's no need in forcing things forward. The problem is that some people are resisting this change out of nationalism, fanaticism and xenophobia in general.

[Molly]

I kinda started typing and got lost, hence the spoiler.
Why is someone a Nationalist? Because he isn't satisfied with his own position/fate/prosperity/life. Why is Panos saying that he wants all the "Aliens" out of Greece? Not because he wants to save Greece or all Greeks. I call bullshit on that one. I believe he just wants them out in fear of not getting enough for himself.
Guess the only way to get your global political system is by showing the others that this global system is providing them with "more" than any other system or ideology. And when they have enough, they still want more but not as much as before. But the actual political system is secondary. First of all, people want more!

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I've read an interesting article some years ago about a local engineering firm and their philosophy about "growth". It was the first time I read about that idea and the reasoning is so simple that I was surprised why I hadn't heard about it before:

They are 25 employees (including the boss) and they are not hiring. They are not growing. On purpose. I mean, everyone with slight scientific background will tell you that there isn't anything that is unlimited (not talking about mankind's stupidity). His firm is running great, in fact, they are even turning contracts away or tell those customers to come back 6 months later. He argues that there is no unlimited growth, that it doesn't make sense to keep growing because at some point there will be a limit. So, instead of growing, he sticks to the size he can still manage without stress. Always the same amount of people, always the same amount of work load, only using the fixed capacities his bureau can handle. And he's doing this for about 15 years now. Still working, never had to fire anyone, never had anyone calling in sick cuz of being burned out. Everyone is happy, everyone is earning money, everyone is having a good ratio of work and life.

I actually believe that this is the way to go. Whenever you listen to a politician talking about economics, it's about generating growth. I think that this kind of philosophy is a mistake. That there has to be a limit. Nothing just keeps growing.
Now, you say that the growth of prosperity is the key. What if there is a limit?

[[ptx]]

I though you lived in the same place Ptx spoke of. The "against" part you can ignore and just take it as "treat russian population better". It would at least give less angle of attack for Russia, if the baltic states are truely only "victims" and never wanted to piss them at anytime in the last decades 
Thats just an example of course...

And here we see Butan - probably can barely point out the place on a map, has no knowledge whatsoever of the events and the situation there, yet goes on to oppose what has been said... purely for the sake of being on the opposition.

Truly, someone worth wasting time arguing with.

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Protip: being constantly contrarian doesn't really make you look informed, except in the company of likewise stupid people.

[Kafein]

I used the word prosperity and not growth for a reason. Even though e.g. China has a very high growth, Chinese people are not very prosperous yet. Their quality of life isn't great. The goal of the economy is to provide people with products, and those products improve the quality of their life, that's all. There is no unlimited growth, simply because can we can't have unlimited people on the planet.

Your bread and games argument is absolutely true. People can be okay with any kind of political authority, even if it's Pinochet, as long as their needs are satisfied. The moment they get hungry though, instability rises and all hell breaks loose. My point is that nation-states are not well-equipped at all to deal with current world issues because they are too small and can rarely organize actions together. Hence yes, the nation-state structure if inefficient and does not bring as much prosperity as could be possible otherwise.

[Butan]

What else can we be, but victims. Look at the world map for starters.

Thats the main fallacy I wanted to show: Russia is big on the map so its evil? Baltic states are small so they are good? No.

Why is someone a Nationalist? Because he isn't satisfied with his own position/fate/prosperity/life.

Thats a big shortcut.

And here we see Butan - probably can barely point out the place on a map, has no knowledge whatsoever of the events and the situation there, yet goes on to oppose what has been said...

I can place the baltic states on the map but until you tell me where you are I cant tell which one you live in 
My knowledge on the situation limits to what you have said, and I found it a terribly poor base of argument toward justifying your hate toward Russia.
That could be because I'm not living here, but also because I'm not biased.
If you have more arguments please do tell me, and if you dont care about what I think about it you should still deal with the fact that I am a contributor of this thread, so I discuss about what others says even if you dont seem to like it.

Protip: being constantly contrarian doesn't really make you look informed, except in the company of likewise stupid people.

Kuujinite intensifies.

[Kafein]

I don't think Butan has an opinion. He just reads whatever you type and argues the opposite.

[[ptx]]

I don't think Butan has an opinion. He just reads whatever you type and argues the opposite.

That's what i figured, can't believe i actually wasted my time arguing some pages back.

[Christo]

Thats the main fallacy I wanted to show: Russia is big on the map so its evil? Baltic states are small so they are good? No.

Butan.. fallacy

Fallacy.. Butan.

Warning.. system overload...

[Butan]

I don't think Butan has an opinion. He just reads whatever you type and argues the opposite.

I think you meant: I listen to what people say, then people listen to what I say, in a discussion?

Your version sounds like failure by omission.
Anyway, I think I've been sent all the insults possible in this thread, and it is still alive and I'm still there, I feel like it just became the norm and that we can still discuss which is the main goal.

[Molly]

I think Butan's main problem is his lack of insight into basic human behaviour.

When a region has been ruled/oppressed by a huge neighbour, its culture and language fought on a daily basis, over decades, it's hardly surprising that the region's population isn't very fond of that neighbour. And instead of admitting its failures, said neighbour still bullies the region because a cultural minority of the former ruler/oppressor which isn't willing to adapt nor move. Even threatening the region with the use of force in constant sub-text messages.

And you, Butan, keep talking about people being biased and not understandable resentments towards that neighbour? lmao

[Kafein]

I think you meant: I listen to what people say, then people listen to what I say, in a discussion?

Your version sounds like failure by omission.
Anyway, I think I've been sent all the insults possible in this thread, and it is still alive and I'm still there, I feel like it just became the norm and that we can still discuss which is the main goal.

My point is that arguing with you in this thread is not interesting. You are not trying to bring a point. You are merely arguing the same thing as others do, except reversed. In more accurate words, the entropic content of what you are saying is the same as what others are saying. You are bringing nothing to the discussion, and especially not a fresh point of view. The position of ptx in this debate is like moving his right hand in front of a mirror and hearing the mirror argue against his choice of moving the right hand, as he should move his left hand like the mirror does.

[Kuujis]

That's what i figured, can't believe i actually wasted my time arguing some pages back.

I was FIRST

[Leshma]

The natural way we have been evolving in for tens of thousands of years is tribal. That's obviously never going to happen ever again, so we have to think about something that can work. My point is, there has been nothing natural about the political structure of anywhere during the last 2000 years or so, depending on the region.

Feodalism and nationalism obviously don't work, so we might as well keep searching. Also I don't see how you can connect that to christian mumbo jumbo, the idea is purely humanist.

I'm not talking about human nature. When I say it's not natural to seek unification in any way or form, I mean it as not according to the way universe works. Our whole perception of the world revolves around relations between two or more objects and you want to sell me theory how we should work toward one language, one nation, one everything. Also stuff you dislike that much, such as destruction are perfectly natural things. Destruction is in balance with creation. Trying to curb that in favor of our own ideas how things should work out will never yield desirable results. As an intellegent person and highly educated you should really know better.

[Umbra]

Unification will be achieved once humanity is presented with an outside threat. We will unite under one banner, as a singular war machine under one God Empreror of Mankind to purge the Mutants, Aliens and Heretics and ensure the continuing dominance of our magnificent species.

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[DonNicko]

Any Ukrainians, do you know any results of investigation in Odessa?