Author Topic: why onehanders are currently op..  (Read 6507 times)

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Offline Xant

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2013, 02:05:23 pm »
+1
1h stab is fine
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline rufio

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2013, 02:07:38 pm »
0
hah
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Offline Matim

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2013, 10:04:38 am »
0
>was plaing 1h for about half a year, getting 2,3 frags per round
>made polearm (GLA) stf char, started gettng stats like 15/2 because of the damage dealt easy outrange, weapon speed.
What are you talking about?

Offline Teeth

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2013, 10:54:37 pm »
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(click to show/hide)
Not sure if the meta is very different but apparently EU has higher reasoning skill. Strategus battle killboards as a balance argument and it gets fucking upvotes. Tell me if I should point out the flaws with this, to me they are so blatantly obvious I can't be bothered.

Offline San

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2013, 11:12:49 pm »
+1
Definitely not perfect due to map and gear limitations (and the lag), but performance stats are typically the best arguments for what's good outside of theorycrafting and BSing. It would help if you explain your point, yes.

Offline Teeth

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #95 on: October 22, 2013, 12:05:17 am »
+6
Okay, now I think the game is balanced according to battle. It is the game mode where every single class is somewhat viable and playable, from horse thrower to shielder. Now let us think of some differences between battle and a Strategus battle.

1) Armour. This difference might not be as severe on NA as on EU, but the average armour in Strat is like 70+, from what I have played on NA 1 and NA Strat, there is probably a 15 armour difference for you at least as well. Immediately reduces perceived effectiveness of any cut weapons.
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattleroster&id=5269

Two top players on the left and top player on the right are polearmers. Does this mean that polearms are OP, nope, it means that they used a 36p awlpike, which is extremely good at racking up kills against plate. They are also probably the best 3 awlpikers in the game, which brings me two my next point. (Also, Ferdinand in the third spot is me on a level 28 1h no shield, no brag)


2) Individual player skill, who gets the top spot just depends on who's playing.
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive&view=list#!?page=strategusinfobattleroster&id=5128

Top 3 on the left are 2h, top 5-6 on the right are shielders I believe. Yet I can almost guarantee you that if any of the 3 awlpikers mentioned above would have played, they would've taken the top spots.


3) Most importantly, the fact that there are respawns, that there is organization and communication. Pike is the best weapon for me in a Strat battle, simply because I always get to use it in the perfect situation.  Surrounded by closely packed teammates, fighting a group of enemies, that situation lasts for an hour straight in a good battle. How is that even remotely close to what happens on a battle server. Or the respawning cav, which consistently harrasses the infantry. Ranged usually plays way less of a decisive role in strat fights, you never have to clutch a round against multiple class enemies. Strat battles, let alone Strat sieges just have very little to do with pub battle.

I have not nearly exhausted all the points I can make on this, but arguing that 1h is not OP because they don't top in three posted Strat battles is beyond retarded. Shielders are the class that benefits least from Strat battles of the main classes. Worst cav defence, there is cav all over the place. Best ranged defence, ranged often plays a minor role and there are respawns which makes getting shot for half your hp less significant. Lowest damage, which makes killing 70 body armour people a slow process compared to 41p morningstars or 36p awlpikes. Lowest reach, which in consistent group fights filled with pokey weapons makes it very hard to dish out damage, again the consistent group fights are caused by respawning and commanding and are minor part of the average battle round. 1h is a good 1 vs 1 class, but there barely are 1 vs 1's.

Ever noticed how high damage weapons (awlpikes, great mauls) get a lot of kills and low points and low damage weapons (1h) get a lot of score and fewer points? If one were to look at Strat battles for balance, throwers would require a buff, horse archers, any agi build, any cut weapon, any light horse, should I go on? By the way, I am not arguing that 1h is overpowered, just critical of the argument used.

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #96 on: October 22, 2013, 12:54:09 am »
-2
Okay, now I think the game is balanced according to battle. It is the game mode where every single class is somewhat viable and playable, from horse thrower to shielder. Now let us think of some differences between battle and a Strategus battle.

1) Armour. This difference might not be as severe on NA as on EU, but the average armour in Strat is like 70+, from what I have played on NA 1 and NA Strat, there is probably a 15 armour difference for you at least as well. Immediately reduces perceived effectiveness of any cut weapons.
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive#!?page=strategusinfobattleroster&id=5269

Two top players on the left and top player on the right are polearmers. Does this mean that polearms are OP, nope, it means that they used a 36p awlpike, which is extremely good at racking up kills against plate. They are also probably the best 3 awlpikers in the game, which brings me two my next point. (Also, Ferdinand in the third spot is me on a level 28 1h no shield, no brag)

Biggest burn I´ve seen in a while, keep up the good work.
2) Individual player skill, who gets the top spot just depends on who's playing.
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=strategusbattlesarchive&view=list#!?page=strategusinfobattleroster&id=5128

Top 3 on the left are 2h, top 5-6 on the right are shielders I believe. Yet I can almost guarantee you that if any of the 3 awlpikers mentioned above would have played, they would've taken the top spots.


3) Most importantly, the fact that there are respawns, that there is organization and communication. Pike is the best weapon for me in a Strat battle, simply because I always get to use it in the perfect situation.  Surrounded by closely packed teammates, fighting a group of enemies, that situation lasts for an hour straight in a good battle. How is that even remotely close to what happens on a battle server. Or the respawning cav, which consistently harrasses the infantry. Ranged usually plays way less of a decisive role in strat fights, you never have to clutch a round against multiple class enemies. Strat battles, let alone Strat sieges just have very little to do with pub battle.

I have not nearly exhausted all the points I can make on this, but arguing that 1h is not OP because they don't top in three posted Strat battles is beyond retarded. Shielders are the class that benefits least from Strat battles of the main classes. Worst cav defence, there is cav all over the place. Best ranged defence, ranged often plays a minor role and there are respawns which makes getting shot for half your hp less significant. Lowest damage, which makes killing 70 body armour people a slow process compared to 41p morningstars or 36p awlpikes. Lowest reach, which in consistent group fights filled with pokey weapons makes it very hard to dish out damage, again the consistent group fights are caused by respawning and commanding and are minor part of the average battle round. 1h is a good 1 vs 1 class, but there barely are 1 vs 1's.

Ever noticed how high damage weapons (awlpikes, great mauls) get a lot of kills and low points and low damage weapons (1h) get a lot of score and fewer points? If one were to look at Strat battles for balance, throwers would require a buff, horse archers, any agi build, any cut weapon, any light horse, should I go on? By the way, I am not arguing that 1h is overpowered, just critical of the argument used.
Biggest burn I´ve seen in a while, keep up the good work.
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Offline San

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #97 on: October 22, 2013, 01:18:08 am »
+1
Nice post, much more than what I expected and I must +1. I was mostly intrigued since many people have qualms with the strong pierce 1h damage, it would still do well against armor. The way the OP states it, the 1h would be able to pierce the armor and stab the cavalry. Personally, I always choose the maces over any sword in strat battles, even the stab swords. OP or simply another powerful tool? Not as good as battle by a long shot, but it's the only thing that really keeps the stats logged.

Even in battle, though, stab 1hs on NA haven't made average players that much better. I still see 3-attack 1hs and swing-oriented 1hs do great, and mostly see the stab 1hs on ranged players. All this is just my anecdotal evidence; the optimal would be battle stats from the server. I just think we shouldn't entirely ignore strategus info because of its flaws. There are flaws in looking at each mode separately.

Paul mentioned in another topic that 1h stab delay will be brought into line with polearms, affected by their speeds. Think this will fix everything? I think this, toning done the stab back to pre-turn nerf stats, and a final small nerf to the effective bonus reach (make it the same as right swing) of the 1h stab are good. This won't really fix the instant stab, but it will increase the risk of stabbing so close when you could get stunned. I can't say how other stabs should change, but this is what I think internally for 1h directions.

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: why onehanders are currently op..
« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2013, 06:12:56 am »
+1
Personally I am enjoying not having to do gymnastics to get a stab in.
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