I like the thought of making horses tougher, but less maneuverable, though -10 speed and -10 maneuverability seems to be a tad too harsh. Also, I think acceleration speed is defined by the maneuver, so reducing maneuver will also make them snails when it comes to accelerating.
Probably have noticed that the number of people playing cav has roughly doubled since the last patch, much like within a month of the January patch the number of throwers doubled. There are a number of clans who have converted half their clan members lately to cav. Why?? because with the final nerfs of equipments slots to both pocket pikemen and ranged and the thrower nerf, cav have far fewer predators and their dramatically excessive speed and maneuverability sicne January has become noticeable in its effect. Will often see maps with top 5 on each team being cavalry, many of whom are only average quality cavalry players, but it has become fairly easy to rack up a lot of kills not really on unaware footmen (though no one hears the sound of hoofbeats since january patch to give warning) but footmen engaged in fighting and ranged who might be lucky to get 1 shot off before being 1 shot killed as the cavalry person travels half the map in a few seconds. If the miss the lance/couch/slash they just turn a 180 degree angle and bump slash/lance you to death.
I know a lot of cavalry people get defensive just as throwers got defensive before the last patch, but going cavalry is far too easy compared to all other classes currently. It needs a rebalancing of skill that a slower speed would accomplish, this would allow them to strike, but thena quick enemy can retaliate back instead of holding a constant downblock until bump slashed or couched. Their speed and maneuverability should have some realtion to the severly limited maneuverability and speed of footmen instead of being way out of line. Turning corners at high speed with a couched lance is not skill but simply flawed game mechanics.
+30 hp would make horses a little more resilient (though champion coursers already can take 5 arrows before dying), and the reduced speed and maneuevrability of 10 only cuts it by 20-25%, which is actually still allowing horses to have great speed, but not simply get kills by cheap jet fueled tactics, but by actual skill of proper lancing and timing and choosing when to charge.
If the foot soldiers running with 30 km/h , jumping 2 meters high, circle around with warp 8 and swing their weapon 2 times per second , then nerf all horse by a factor of - 10 ....... thats stupidest thing ive ever heard.
I like the thought of making horses tougher, but less maneuverable, though -10 speed and -10 maneuverability seems to be a tad too harsh. Also, I think acceleration speed is defined by the maneuver, so reducing maneuver will also make them snails when it comes to accelerating.
I think we've gone over the relative speed of infantry vs cavalry before. Infantry is much slower in game than in real life, and cavalry is faster in game than in real life and there is a huge disparity between reality and in game. That argument has no grounds.
Also, I've never noticed anything odd about how high people jump. It looks normal to me, they are tucking their legs up. Maybe it is because I do parkour.
But seriously, people move really slow in game compared to real life. I don't know about you, though.
Also, in game nobody swings 2 times a second, BUT if it were real life people could swing up to 4 times a second with staves and most 2handers. Worst argument this thread has yet, especially when you can swing said weapons while on the horse too.
Also, it is a reworking of horses not a nerf. Most people would see [my suggestion] as a buff to real cav players, and a nerf to people exploiting retarded game engine crap.
I'm tired of people not reading and flaming :( Just patch stuff.
You are right, percentage change is probably the way to go with a 15-20% decrease in maneuverability and 10% decrease in speed and making horse hooves actually make noise when they approach. I think adding more hitpoints not armor though is the way to go, otherwise they just become armored horses immune to arrows and all cutting weapons. Think of duelling someone backpedaling with a really long polearm, you can never reach to swing at them all you can do is block and charge, horses are kind of like that in the sense that high speed and maneuverability doesn't allow for retaliation with a successful block making them not need to use their shield or manual block with their lance.
The biggest thing is that high speed AND maneuverability allows for being everywhere at once on the battlefield so that a group of them completely control the battlefield everytime because even if you block one another one is coming and then the first one blocking is already turned and sped up to charge you again a moment after the second one and if they miss they just lance a guy 1 second later just past you and then the next guy with little to no chance of rtaliation using the longest weapons in the game.
P.S. I know cavalry gets really defensive about their OP horses right now so my awesomebar is going down (like that matters at all), but there is a serious imbalance with horses currently (like throwing after January) and it needs tweaking and revising before strategus comes out or all other classes become far less viable. We should want to see diversity on the battlefield and not having battle servers often being 50% cavalry as it is now.
-10 speed an maneuverability would be just as overkill as the throwing nerf was. Speed should be topped at around 45 for the fastest horse and maneuverability should be 46-47 max. This is for the FASTEST horse.I agree. I've seen some coursers which were heirloomed I suppose and they were just....ridiculous is the word I guess. Even the non heirloomed is on the verge of being 'too fast' already. So yeah 45 maybe 46 for the fastest would be a good way to get rid of jet ponies yet still plenty fast (and more realistic).
Additionally, heirlooming a horse should add noticeably more life and armor, not speed and maneuverability. This would stop the super-horses and a lot of the ninja-horsing which is commonplace.Agree again. Be even nicer if heirloomed horses used new textures to differentiate as well upgraded armor...maybe heraldic as well etc)
I think we've gone over the relative speed of infantry vs cavalry before. Infantry is much slower in game than in real life, and cavalry is faster in game than in real life and there is a huge disparity between reality and in game. That argument has no grounds.
Also, I've never noticed anything odd about how high people jump. It looks normal to me, they are tucking their legs up. Maybe it is because I do parkour.
But seriously, people move really slow in game compared to real life. I don't know about you, though.
Lmao .......typical display theoretician
Also, in game nobody swings 2 times a second, BUT if it were real life people could swing up to 4 times a second with staves and most 2handers. Worst argument this thread has yet, especially when you can swing said weapons while on the horse too.
I agree. I've seen some coursers which were heirloomed I suppose and they were just....ridiculous is the word I guess. Even the non heirloomed is on the verge of being 'too fast' already. So yeah 45 maybe 46 for the fastest would be a good way to get rid of jet ponies yet still plenty fast (and more realistic).
Agree again. Be even nicer if heirloomed horses used new textures to differentiate as well upgraded armor...maybe heraldic as well etc)
Again...bring back throwing and I doubt a horse nerf will be needed.
The only horse that can turn on a dime like that is the Arabian. This should not be an 'all horses need nerfing' case. But it has to be taken horse by horse.
We shall see how cavalry does in the battles today. Then I'll reply.
OP cav ! :mrgreen:
True Overdriven. Cav just have to waits for other to do errors, then engage, get kills and don't get killed. And if they don't do errors, then they don't engage, don't get kills and don't get killed.
It's too bad we don't have an effective counter against cav.
Oh, and in your example, you forgot the horse archers. :rolleyes: Make a lancer charge, you notice the pikeman going to stab him, just shoot him since he doesn't move much waiting for the lancer, he gets stunned, and the lancer couchs him => win. Kill remaining archers with easy passes.
Or do you also suggest that we actually also need shielders protecting pikemens who protects archers ? :shock:
Cav is definitely overpowered. Even pikeman isn't a good enough counter, since you can't watch everywhere in the same time, and cav's speed is so huge they often stab you before you even realize they were there. And when you do realize, they'll just pick another target. Easy as pie.
Any tard can see that cav is op at the moment.
If your horse dies.. So? you can still fight very well on foot since the points going into riding are not a lot, or don't have very steep requirements.
I suggested a long time ago that one should nerf the maneuverability of horses and rather buff the HP. Then players would have to actually *Think* while playing cav, and not just zoom around the map looking for a back to backstab. I'm a strong proponent that players should think tactically where to put themselves in the battle, and knowing their strengths and weaknesses. Cavalry is even more a thinking mans class, as you have both the overview of the battle and the ability to be wherever you want much quicker than other classes. Cavalry also have the ability to use teamwork by charging in groups.
A horse gives great great power, but should punish you very hard when you do a mistake. No other classes can fly around, choose their battles, and 1-shot any player caught unaware. I would rather see them getting a HP buff so they would not be shot to pieces by archers while doing a charge, but if they run into a pikeman, they should have problems..
Some cavalry players think they *Should* have a great advantage over other players just because they are on a horse. It should be a null-sum game of balance, the advantage should be nullified by the risk and vulnerabilities.
Any tard can see that cav is op at the moment.
Any tard can see that cav is op at the moment.
If your horse dies.. So? you can still fight very well on foot since the points going into riding are not a lot, or don't have very steep requirements.
I suggested a long time ago that one should nerf the maneuverability of horses and rather buff the HP. Then players would have to actually *Think* while playing cav, and not just zoom around the map looking for a back to backstab. I'm a strong proponent that players should think tactically where to put themselves in the battle, and knowing their strengths and weaknesses. Cavalry is even more a thinking mans class, as you have both the overview of the battle and the ability to be wherever you want much quicker than other classes. Cavalry also have the ability to use teamwork by charging in groups.
A horse gives great great power, but should punish you very hard when you do a mistake. No other classes can fly around, choose their battles, and 1-shot any player caught unaware. I would rather see them getting a HP buff so they would not be shot to pieces by archers while doing a charge, but if they run into a pikeman, they should have problems..
Some cavalry players think they *Should* have a great advantage over other players just because they are on a horse. It should be a null-sum game of balance, the advantage should be nullified by the risk and vulnerabilities.
From what i saw in our multi -clan battle (team 3 vs team 4) and what i've read (and saw in the videos) about the other battle , i won't agree that cav is op. It is, like i've said many times, easily countered by simply equipping infantry with spears and pikes and by making archers keep horses at bay . Charging a prepared and organized group of enemies even in the back was most of the time suicidal for cavalry.
I believe , however, that Kesh has made it the goal of his life to see cavalry nerfed to the ground and shattered to pieces or die .
From what i saw in our multi -clan battle (team 3 vs team 4) and what i've read (and saw in the videos) about the other battle , i won't agree that cav is op. It is, like i've said many times, easily countered by simply equipping infantry with spears and pikes and by making archers keep horses at bay . Charging a prepared and organized group of enemies even in the back was most of the time suicidal for cavalry.
Since when will regular crpg be about charging 'a prepared and organized group of enemies'? Cav is op in unorganized battles, which crpg is 90 % of the time. I hate to put it this way, but I guess cav will need a nerf just because of people's stupidity. As things are now, something has to be done, which is a shame, because that may hamper them in strategus.Starting this day, i will ask all my clanmates to stop using shields, cover and even zigzagging and instead group up in a tight formation and run straight into archer fire. 2 weeks later, we will all come here and whine that archers are way too op and need to get heavily nerfed,derp. Deal ?
Starting this day, i will ask all my clanmates to stop using shields, cover and even zigzagging and instead group up in a tight formation and run straight into archer fire. 2 weeks later, we will all come here and whine that archers are way too op and need to get heavily nerfed,derp. Deal ?
I've regularly seen teams consist of 60 % cav
Dont exaggerate. On EU1 each side has approximately 40-50 players. 60% - is more then half i.e. 25-30 cavalry... are you nuts man? I've never seen more then 10 (okay - 15-20 - only when Shogunates or GKs play together) riders on each team. Stop bsing. :lol: I am rider, so i always keep in mind the amount of cav in each team.
BTW i agree with OP. More HP and armor - less maneuverability and (or) speed. But not that much (even 1 point of speed or maneuver matters)
Somehow ppl tend to forget, that there IS a perfect anticav build - HA. I find them extremely deadly and annoying. Good HA will make whole cav mass to run away in fear.
P.S. Atm - about 90 players on EU1. My team has 11 cav (HA+lancers+1h). Enemy team has 8 cav. :rolleyes:
I've been playing on my infantry (1h and 2h) characters most of the time during the last month and i can agree that there's a bit too much cav on the servers atm. If you ask me , all you have to do to fix that is increase the horses' upkeep for public servers .
The bigger issue though is the team balance that constantly insists on putting most cav in one team (same goes for archers). Fix these two problems first, see how it goes, ==maybe== by a tiny bit decrease the stats on the most popular horses, see how it goes. I think it's a better solution than "nerfing cavalry because of people's stupidity" or listening to someone like Kesh . Surgeon knife instead of a lumber axe ?
Snip
Ujin, how do you want to counter cavalry with 1h spear ? It's IMPOSSIBLE with 150 reach ones against good cavalry (it allows you to block couches, nothing else) like Torben, Tommyyy and other good cav players (who just use superior reach and extremely high speed/maneuver to kill each and every player with weapon shorter than awlpike, and couch people dead who have weapon shorter than +-150 reach for 1h spear and +-170 for 2h spear).
We both know you want to keep your shiny toys so you'll defend them no matter the facts.
As a cav, you can ignore 1/3 of the playerbase (infantry) and pick your battles with virtually no downsides (except the cost, but i guess you can manage the upkeep as your beloved heavy lance is cheaper than warspear that is way less powerful), you can backstab unaware people and gang them when it suit you fancy. This thread ask for just a minor change (not even a nerf, change in behavior) that will increase the skill required to play the class. Can't you cope with more skill requirements ?
1h+spear can easily counter cav, it's just a matter of choosing the right weapon.. just ask Ramses.
Ragrding the pathetic 'Can't you cope with more skill requirements', how do you think people would react if Ujin said "hey, why don't make 2-handers and polearms not able to move while swinging... it would add more skill requirement since you would have to position yourself! Or cant you cope with more skill requirement?"
Simple fact - shield gives your spear/lance extra lenght (infantry). Another fact- pike and long spear are cheaper than a heavy lance.
As for countering and picking fights etc i suggest you watch the livestream videos from the multi-clan tournament where shields+spears/awlpikes were used. Or just read the posts above by me or Gurnisson.
If i use a heavy lance on foot vs cav, i usually kill/dehorse a couple before getting killed. I'd say it's 50/50 vs a good lancer (coursers are easier).
whine
Cav is at its prime only on open field maps. Town maps render them useless (that bridge map, lot of towns map etc). It's normal having cav dominating on open plains. As well as infantry excelling at capturing towns and villages and ranged - at defending towns.
So you argue that because in organised play cav is counterable (not with ease, it require more effort than dealing with infantry/archers) it's fine ?
Heavy Lance is weapon above awlpike length therefore don't counter my argument.
1h + 150 length spear ? Ok, post a video of you owning one of aforementioned players with war spear/red tassel one.
Reducing speed and maneuver is not the same as not moving at all. I would be fine with some kind of penalty for missed swings. I would cope with more skill requirement, just like i would cope with manual block for shields. Use better strawman next time kenky.
If you think that town map render cav useless, you do it wrong. Infantry don't excel at anything as ranged can do it just as good as dedicated infantry with added bonus of killing people at range.
*sighs*Go play cav.Go play crpg and stop whining
I think 10 cav vs 10 pikemen on a field, cav will win.
On another note: It is true in theory that good tactics can defend well against cav. But not on an equal numerical basis. I think 10 cav vs 10 pikemen on a field, cav will win. Not if they charge all from the front, but If they surround them, and charge at the same time. Some cav will go down for sure, but so will some pikemen. After the horsies are down, there's still the riders to kill. BUT, perhaps we should install a special class of horses for strategus that are more powerful than the normal ones..
There was a good video that prove it's true (done on 22nd server).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo&feature=related
Are you sure about it? Cause we are here playing CRPG, not native. It's the most irrelevant replay i've ever seen :lol:
TBH, if you are aware, cav aint a big problem... you can take down cav with any weapon, and i often do it with 1h.
Now you might say "But those are the bad cav! try doing it against torben or leed or tommyyy!"
I actually have done that, but you are right - it rarely happens, just like it rarely happens that i take down Phyrex or Chase with my 1H... i can neither kill good cav nor 2h or polearm with a 1h - but i can kill decent people from all classes.
Would it be fair that you have to be able to kill the best cav players everytime even though you arent close to being able to do it against the best infantry players?
This link has been used excessively and doesn't prove anything...-Sure, but most players use heavy and regular ones.
Consider this :
Its native - Great lance can be used in normal fashion (not just couch)
- Pikes are not as long as pikes in crpg
- Pikes are slower in native than in crpg due to the customisable stats
- lances have been nerfed less
- Horses have been nerfed less
- There are far more heavy horses on field than would normally be present
- They are not all of an organised nature, sure they formed a triangle (which isnt a good formation to form against cav due to corners of a triangle susceptible)
Bring me a vid that is in crpg where 20 skilled horsemen take on 20 organised pikes all on ts and I will review your application for an argument - For now your application is denied, due to irrelevant, unsubstantial and inaccurate evidence.
In cRPG horses are even better than in native (thanks to maneuver and better stats of horseman compared to infantry).
I can take down phyrex or chase or rokema with my 1h, it don't happens rarely but with decent consistency if the terms are fair. 1h do just fine against weapons that are not designed to counter shields like long axes, poleaxes, morning stars and such (when using some kind of sword, with shield breakers it's harder).
That's BS. Native horses have more HP and armor.
Rly? What's your nickname? And how do you take them down? While being in mob 10 vs 1?
I really love it when cav player's arguments tend to forget that even after killing his horse, the cav can still be deadly on foot.
cav players do awesomely good on open plains.
cav players drop the horse and do average infantry on town maps.
Where do cav players play horribly ?
Btw, we're not in some 2D game, where you always face ahead your opponent, and spear got buffed damage against cav. This is 3D, cav can pwn pikeman from behind, because if there's two cav charging at a single pikeman from two different directions, the pikeman is dead, and the two horses are still alive (one is wounded/heavily wounded, but they can still do the same again, at least 1 other time).
Btw Lorenzo, pikes in native are now long spears in cRPG, and IS a valable couter cav weapon.
Cav player has to spend points for riding, so they are somwhat impaired on foot.
And if there are two pikemen? 2 vs 1 seems not very fair, let's make it 2 horseman vs 2 pikemen. The result will be quite different. And why are you taking up those stupid examples? There are far more classes participating battles then just pikemen and horsemen.
Then buff pikes and long spears. But in that case, i am afraid, other classes will begin chanting "pike is OP! Nerf it!"
I can take down phyrex or chase or rokema with my 1h, it don't happens rarely but with decent consistency if the terms are fair. 1h do just fine against weapons that are not designed to counter shields like long axes, poleaxes, morning stars and such (when using some kind of sword, with shield breakers it's harder).
It would be fair if i would have the chance to kill the best cav players 50% of time, as i can do it against best infantry players.
-Sure, but most players use heavy and regular ones.
-people use long spears as they have 2 attack directions and do fine in duels. Didn't seen single 'pike'.
-pikes have 140wpf with no armor penalties, more than cav who have about 110 wpf in polearms.
-lances were not nerfed
-horses were buffed
-depends, but in cRPG people use armored horses too
-it was organised, the initial charge was head on which isn't best way to charge yet it succeed.
cav players drop the horse and do average infantry on town maps.
Where do cav players play horribly ?
Btw Lorenzo, pikes in native are now long spears in cRPG, and IS a valable couter cav weapon.
Did you think the cavalry charge was organized ? They just plain dumb charged. Infantry was more organized regarding this matter.
There are several fallacious arguments that don't actually prove true as a practical matter in battles:
1. Cav only kills unaware people so its the infantry's fault not their OP status.
Have you ever been to any map where there are buildings or trees? Cav is completely SILENT until they have already hit you, then you hear hooves. You ae constantly turning around trying to cover teammates with a pike because it is so easy to be caught by a silent horse. You look back and see nothing, turn forward and 2 seconds later youa re couched or 1-hit killed with a lance thrust using speed bonus from arabian warhorse or courser. If you do happen to get lucky and catch a view of them when you turn around they just ride away and at best an archer gets only 1-shot (often none as horse can go 40 feet in time bow draw back) at a retreating horse before it gets away witha negative speed bonus, maybe taking only 10% of the horse's health or even less of the rider. But once they kill the pikeman (they target them if they catch them turning a corner), they proceed to repeatedly come out of nowhere as SILENT vultures killing teammates one after another no matter how aware, often waiting till they are fighting someone else before striking. Most people are aware and trying to spot cav nowadays and its still not good enough because of 3 main factors: speed, maneuverability, and silent hooves until too late.
2. Pikemen counter cavalry.
Typical battle yesterday, champion cataphract rider and 1 other cav left at the end for one team (typical ending) and 3 infantry including 1 pikeman on other team. 2 infantry hang near pikeman downblocking constantly and pikeman holds ready tracking cav on a hill with his pike. 30-45 seconds of cav just dancing around them then pikeman stabs at cav, doesn't quite reach as the champion cataphract turns on a dime and rides a few feet away as the stab starts, then immediately rides back in stabbing with heavy lance killing pikeman before he can recover, the courser zooms in on a couch kills one of the remaining infantry, but plays stupid and lets the 2nd infantry (one of the best players in the game) stab his horse (which was almost dead at end of round and then stabbing him to death before he gets back up), this was all occurring near trees on a hill (supposedly non-cav map), the cataphract doesn't zoom in for the kill but just decides to be cocky and shows duel sign and then gets off his horse. The other infantry sees this and calls the horse over and gets on the horse and then proceeds to spend a minute dancing around the lancer who is now essentially a pikeman until round almost over then suicides with draw coming close. Or another typical fight on NA 100, half the server is roughly half cav with 40 people on, the cav keep targeting the 10% of the server that is pikeman (far fewer because its more difficult support class than cav) and in massed pack kill them off while riding roughshod over all the infantry who can't hit them as they trample them from every direction at high speed and then destroy the entire team with almost no deaths no matter how organized the group was. If speed/maneuverability were realistic a successful block would allow swing/stab back if the horse is going 3/4ths speed and they failed to bump you, but it doesn't because evena t 12 speed yo can't witht he current speed of horses. Its like being a backpedaling long hafted blade spammer with 1-hit kills that has 30 athletics. Like this highly nimble backpedaler they have complete control of the fight with their speed and maneuverability with no repercussions of a swing back from a non-pike unless they slow toa stop or run into a wall like an idiot.
3. Horses are bigger target to archers so balanced.
The fact is the high maneuverability allows horses to dance away from arrows targetted at them from mid-far range better than infantry can even dodge despite the alrger size and also make it a reduced damage by riding away. Also, typical event once a map, full on charge by champion courser, shoot directly in the head with arrow and full speed bonus of charging courser, horse doesn't die, lance 1 shots archer. Then proceeds to lance oonce every 2second for the next 10 seconds killing 5 more people, every one a one-hit kill. End of map - top 4 on each team is cav even though on this particular non na 100 server the cav is currently only 25% of the server.
P.S. Balance is what makes game fun, watching one class always dominate with few to no options to counter is like playing a MMORPG where 1 level 80 wizard completely obliterates 10 people at a time. Archery was this way pre-January. Throwing was this way after January and I posted numerous similar threads in this vein when it became utterly obvious (throwing is coming back see a lot of people getting 2:1 k/ds now, do think ammo should be increased though). Well, cav has become utterly obvious as too unbalanced in its current state and needs adjustment of some sort maybe making them more balanced of being healthier horses with less speed and maneuverability.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,9301.0.html
I just dont believe the last statement which is cav have the upper hand on every map bar town. An archer can use his bow on any map he plays, an infantry can use his equipment just as well on any map.I sais cav had the overall best options. They either rock on plains, or do decent on others (switching to inf). Infantry gets owned on plains, and does decent on town maps.
Bah, this won't show much. All cav players vote "yes", adding on a "let's wait un til throwing gets buffed". So your actually ADMITTING cav is "OP with the current throwing", but don't feel like voting that way ?
IF Fasader is going to nerf it, i just want to make sure he doesn't do what he did to throwing
Now I've even certain people commenting on this forum post today, ingame today (and yes you know who you are), walking out into an isolated bit of plain, take cover behind a rock and just stand there shooting. Now whether he expected the next part or not I don't know but I then watched a lancer ride round his side in a wide angle, spot him as an easy target and lance him (this was not a one hit kill). The same player has been posting his posts saying cav is too strong and there is nothing to be done...
It saddens me that such a player cannot recognise that his positioning was wrong ( a good 20 second jog from any support) and that it was his own fault he took the hit not the cavs 'OP build'.
I don't think anyone here, aside from gorath, wants any class to be nerfed as badly as throwing was.
just take a look at the topic title and then say that again
Now I've even certain people commenting on this forum post today, ingame today (and yes you know who you are), walking out into an isolated bit of plain, take cover behind a rock and just stand there shooting. Now whether he expected the next part or not I don't know but I then watched a lancer ride round his side in a wide angle, spot him as an easy target and lance him (this was not a one hit kill). The same player has been posting his posts saying cav is too strong and there is nothing to be done...
It saddens me that such a player cannot recognise that his positioning was wrong ( a good 20 second jog from any support) and that it was his own fault he took the hit not the cavs 'OP build'.
I excuse myself for this wall of text, but i felt highly offended by Lorenzo's post who didn't have the sense to name the interested, rather leave it obscured, so that, with hope, nobody comes defending himself. And bringing one's play when he's bored and waits to loose his multi to join another server with his clanmates, but still playing to win, is that irrelevant to a discussion about the power of cavs.
Power wich Thomek has resumed rather well in his very few posts here, but that all cav addict just can't accept. And now i'll be rude and tell it directly. Do all of you know why thoses very few cav players are so actively defending their playstyle ? Because they are part of the noob cavs. They can't bear being compared to Kerrigan, Torben and others, because they know they can't do half as much as thoses. And they know that thoses few dedicated players, who have played since a long time, don't care about a -2 maneuver and + 30hp, since it wouldn't change much for them. But here we have players who NEEDS it to have kills.
just take a look at the topic title and then say that again
The thread you pointed is bullshit, because you didn't take into account the modification devs took to it, being : If mrA, playing as classA, votes to buff classA, then his vote is Null. If he voted to nerf classA, then his vote is doubled. If he votes to buff/nerf classB, then his vote is taken into account.
At least, this way, we don't see players mainly voting to buff their playstyle. Do you honestly believe horses need a buff ? Do you honestly agree with thoses 192 people voting to buff horses ? I anyway, only voted to buff throwing and nerf polearms in this thread, if i recall right. Since i didn't want a nerf for horses, but a damn balance....
I leave the rest to the next sorry sod to try and defend cavs balance :P
But no, Mr Lorenzo just takes this opportunity of an error from me, to say that this archer plays like this (and since he did that one time, he probably does that all the time, right) and this his arguments are irrelevant. If you can't defend against a person's argument, try to attack the person, hey ?
Hate you.
I don't know by how much, or how cav should be nerfed, only that they should be less efficient.
Most of all I would see a damage risk (from zero to break the neck) to the rider when he falls off, but that is wse stuff, and not implementable in the near future.
There are many ways to do this:
1. Give us back some sheath-able longer spears. (I.ex Bamboo for weaboos + a Euro-ish one)
2. Buff throwing somehow..
3. Nerf cav maneuverability, but buff the HP enough so they can survive the same amount of attempted shots. (If it took 10 shots to down a cav now 5 hits 5 misses, it should take 10 shots after nerf if there was 7 hits / 3 misses. The extra hits come from less maneuverability.)
Torp.. Awareness.. There are situations especially in towns, where cav rounds a corner, and I don't care if you have 12y old reactions: You got no chance. Certain situations in cRPG is already blasting anyones awareness-sensors hehe. You have cav-ranged-infantry-blocking.. etc etc. (Why I try to avoid the clusterfucks and create 1vs1 situations for myself..) :-D
Cav was always the best Ninja out there. Superfast->1hit kills->Quick Getaway
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ok Horselovers, don't get carried away.
OP moderated his stance, and we have since discussed other ways to nerf it.. OF COURSE a blunt nerf across the line of 30hp and -10 speed is a bit ungentle since cRPG is almost at the right spot when it comes to balance generally. Actually the balancers deserve a bouquet of flowers for holding out and keep reading these threads.. We are also getting closer and closer to *Balance*. (Something mind you, is an extremely complex process. Look how long blizzard keep balancing starcraft for instance.. It takes years of playtesting, and we have barely started exploring OP-Combos for strategus battles!)
The closer we get to complete balance, the more whiny these posts are going to look. The anti-whine posts doesn't understand that this is a kind of feedback to the devs.. Taking the temperature of the playerbase.
Now back on topic:
Horselovers must understand that with such great power like choosing your battles, 1-shotting people, unblockable attacks, Higher point of view, Shield that protects the horse, speed to be anywhere when you want to etc.. There must be some serious downside to it.
This downside should be that if you don't think before you charge, or do stupid things, you get killed. If you use your horse in unfavorable terrain you loose.. These super-maneuverable horses you got make sure you don't get punished enough for doing mistakes. You can circle around just out of range, go in and out of battle, precision bump people etc etc..
Speed is fine, with less maneuver it will be risky to race around full speed. Buff HP (or rather armor) somewhat, I dunno how much, but enough that arrows won't shoot the new unmaneuverable horses to pieces in 5 secs.
Again, Torp you misunderstand and exaggerate.Actually, blazing at full speed at opponents is the silliest thing you can do, youll lose way too much manouverability, you better damn well hit your opponent if you are going for such a risky move.
Taking the skill out of cav? Are you joking? Sure it will be more difficult and more risky to dance around at high speeds like they do now. After the nerf/buff I'm talking about, sure you can dance, but you have to slow down a bit to do the dancing.
I'm not talking about horses just being able to go in a straight line.. Horses they use now, are racecars on a field, Ninjas in the towns, and fucking goats in the hills and mountains.
After a HP buff and Maneuverability Nerf, cav can worry less about projectiles, but needs to worry more about pikes. Hopefully they might do more teamwork as well.
Again, Torp you misunderstand and exaggerate.
Taking the skill out of cav? Are you joking? Sure it will be more difficult and more risky to dance around at high speeds like they do now. After the nerf/buff I'm talking about, sure you can dance, but you have to slow down a bit to do the dancing.
I'm not talking about horses just being able to go in a straight line.. Horses they use now, are racecars on a field, Ninjas in the towns, and fucking goats in the hills and mountains.
After a HP buff and Maneuverability Nerf, cav can worry less about projectiles, but needs to worry more about pikes. Hopefully they might do more teamwork as well.
Most horsemen don't ride at full speed or even high speed. I think you have a misconception there. That's partly why their manoeuvrability is so good. Riding at slower speeds allows you to turn much faster. Only on the most open maps will most cav even consider full speed.
But thats part of the point, their top speed is so high, even 75% for great maneuverability is still incredibly fast. By reducing maximum speed, 75% will be lower more of an actual charging horse role instead of a motorcycyle that makes no noise but zooms in from nowhere. By the way, CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO PRE-JANUARY WITH HORSES ACTUALLY MAKING NOISES SO WE CAN BE AWARE OF THEM WITHOUT CONSTANTLY SPINNING IN A CIRCLE 100% OF THE TIME!!!Slow down now, no need to start getting emotional again. Let's have a caps lock free conversation, shall we?
Again, Torp you misunderstand and exaggerate.
Taking the skill out of cav? Are you joking? Sure it will be more difficult and more risky to dance around at high speeds like they do now. After the nerf/buff I'm talking about, sure you can dance, but you have to slow down a bit to do the dancing.
I'm not talking about horses just being able to go in a straight line.. Horses they use now, are racecars on a field, Ninjas in the towns, and fucking goats in the hills and mountains.
After a HP buff and Maneuverability Nerf, cav can worry less about projectiles, but needs to worry more about pikes. Hopefully they might do more teamwork as well.
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The closer we get to complete balance, the more whiny these posts are going to look. The anti-whine posts doesn't understand that this is a kind of feedback to the devs.. Taking the temperature of the playerbase.
.
But thats part of the point, their top speed is so high, even 75% for great maneuverability is still incredibly fast. By reducing maximum speed, 75% will be lower more of an actual charging horse role instead of a motorcycyle that makes no noise but zooms in from nowhere. By the way, CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO PRE-JANUARY WITH HORSES ACTUALLY MAKING NOISES SO WE CAN BE AWARE OF THEM WITHOUT CONSTANTLY SPINNING IN A CIRCLE 100% OF THE TIME!!!
Slow down now, no need to start getting emotional again. Let's have a caps lock free conversation, shall we?
Believe me, at top speed, we get more than a mere 25% penalty to manouverability.
At the moment the only reason I see for using the fragile Arabian and the slightly less fragile courser, is for the looks or the money that you save on your repair bill.
THe only things that need to be done, are imo: -better sound when cav approaches, -less upkeep for armoured horses
The othe rpost, yes it did get changed, people were complaining that horse's hooves sounds were interfering with the other battle sounds and often you would hear hooves while they were still far away (I never had any trouble distinguishing between close and far and could time dodging very well just on sound). Currently the horses hooves do not travel more than a couple feet away from the horse which is fail, like silent sharks in the ocean instead of heavy lumbering beasts of burden.
to OP
then add +10 to charge for every horse and I am okay with that.