cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Rico on March 21, 2016, 10:23:31 pm

Title: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 21, 2016, 10:23:31 pm
After taking playtesting and community feedback into consideration, we would like to announce that the recent changes to ranged will be reverted. The pinnacle of un-balance is the discovery that the current War Composite Bow (previous Horn Bow) with its 23c and 6 requirement deals the same damage as the Arbalest if used with a STR archery build corresponding to meta. Compare reload time, slots, upkeep and tier, and it becomes evident that something is very wrong here. The only people who currently play crossbow do so out of style or because they are unaware of the fact that archery is strictly more powerful in the current balance, not because they face fair trade-offs compared to archers.

The new balance creates more problems than it solves. The old crossbow system used 4WM for Hunting Crossbow, 5WM for Light Crossbow, 6WM for Crossbow, 7WM for Heavy Crossbow and 8WM for Arbalest of WPF investment into crossbow to get the most narrow crosshair size possible. None of the crossbows were pin-point accurate. This transparent increase of requirements used to be sophisticated and easy to understand; the absence of pin-point accuracy retained a certain player-skill requirement to use crossbows over large distances, and fairness. This system has been abolished with the change of damage and accuracy values on crossbows. Currently, you dump around 125 wpf into crossbow, and you can use any of them with pin-point accuracy. This is plain bullshit and not offset by increased STR requirements.

The already cancerous STR archer meta is further promoted by the increase of bow requirements. If you increase the requirement of a bow, you buff it. Keep in mind that you can skill up to 4 PD more than the requirement to get 14% bonus damage per PD. With PD increasing accuracy since the Tydeus Era, there is no reason not to always skill PD exceeding the bow requirement you are using by 4. With 7 PD requirement bows available, every archer skills 11 PD to max out damage on all bows, and won't face any malus other than the opportunity cost of not having more athletics. This opportunity cost is not very high since the weight on quivers makes kiting impossible in the first place. 7 PD requirement bows and PD increasing accuracy are pure madness. The result is an archer who hits as hard as an Arbalest user with similar accuracy, but at 6 or 7 times the rate of fire.

Although we highly appreciate the work Raylin has put into contributing to cRPG and would like to emphasize that the majority of the new items since revival patch were made thanks to his tireless efforts, we realized that it is not economic to keep working with his balance patch. cRPG is facing a difficult crisis due to the broken compiler and unavailable devs, and especially at a time like this, we cannot let internal politics undermine the progress of the mod. Permanently compromising balance to express gratitude for the outstanding work he has done in the past is no option.

The balance experiment has been an excellent attempt to improve the mod and provided important new perspectives on which changes are possible, but given the current state on the servers and the community's reactions, we have to put it ad acta as a failed experiment. Instead of breaking a somewhat functional balance in one swoop and dedicating resources to progressively making the unbalanced state balanced again, we go back to what we had before and make minor adjustments where needed.

We would like to discuss these minor adjustments with you.

(1) Since the change of the leveling system, no STR-requirements have been adjusted. Nightingale and me are working on this right now. High-agility builds with fast weapons threaten to break animations and make combat less enjoyable. Increasing requirements is one way to avoid this. In the past, STR used to be your ticket for using heavy armor. This is no longer the case. But it will be again. We are looking forward to your input once the STR-requirements patch is online. Right now, point (1) is more of an announcement than an invitation to discuss; but we'll have the discussion later.

(2) Fast-paced combat makes the game interesting, but high levels and weapon speed stats only work with correct sweetspots in the animations. We observed that many players block based on expectation instead of observation, since the window of observation is short and the relative position of the enemy gives away the most likely attack direction. In other words, blocks tend to be preemptive instead of reactive, because as soon as you actually observe the attack direction, you are most likely already hit. New players do not have any expectation, which makes the learning curve unnecessarily steep for them. Experienced players will notice difficulties to keep up the pace in combats with weapons of slightly varying speed, such as MW Crusader Sword vs Iberian Mace. Go to duel and try it. The Crusader Sword seems infinitely faster due to the interaction between the slightly higher speed and the early sweetspots.

A possible remedy is going back to the pre Tydeus-era sweetspots, meaning that most attacks connect with the enemy's body later in the animation than right now. As a result, the animation is as fast as before, but it won't seem anymore like you have been hit way too early, before you had the time to get the block up, although you identified the attack direction correctly. The old sweetspots have the downside that some attacks tend to bounce off armor if you have the incorrect positioning and speed bonus. Take onehanded as an example: The leftswing and overhead stayed the same. The pre-Tydeus rightswing was a slow, strong and wide attack that received the highest damage if it connected late in the animation, like it still is in Native. Now, the rightswing is exactly like the leftswing; a fast, near instantly connecting hit. Same for the stab. The pre-Tydeus stab used to be higher damage (all stabbing swords had more damage than they have now), but it took time to build up. There was a short delay in preparing the stab and executing the part of the animation that connected with the enemy's body, meaning that stabs used to be best when they hit the target late. Now they are connecting instantly and never bouncing off the armor even though you are standing way too close to the enemy. The element of strategic timing (as well as the very rewarding holding of the left mouse button for higher damage) in the rightswing and stab have been overwritten and now underlie the same spam mechanics as the rest of the combat. Post-Tydeuus, you are trying to hit the enemy faster than he can react, instead of provoking him into reacting with the wrong block direction.

Since sweetspots and combat animations are a very controversial topic and subjective to bias, it is an absolute necessity to discuss this topic before implementing anything at all. What are your opinions on the topic? Is there anything that needs to be clarified before you want to answer?

Edit: grammar
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Utrakil on March 21, 2016, 10:42:41 pm
A big thank you for one of the best "devblogs" I have seen for a long time.
It's nice to get some insight in what you guys are thinking and planning.


unfortunately I have nothing to add to the discussion right now.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: sF_Guardian on March 21, 2016, 10:52:06 pm
Why the fuck would you revert x-bow into its op state? X-bows are perfectly fine in the current state, just archery is op.
I mean seriously, at least keep the STR requirements at the current level.
No sane person will want those fuckin agi arbalest runners back that take 90% of your health with one shot.
I'd actually go as far as accusing you of making decisions guided by selfish reasons here Rico.

And please, please dont revert the melee combat, it's really not that hard to block attacks and old 1H right swing was shitty imo.

P.S. Please move this to general discussion so people actually read it.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 21, 2016, 11:07:53 pm
I mean seriously, at least keep the STR requirements at the current level.
Yeah, that's part of adjusting STR requirements to the new levels. No 15/33 15/36 Arbalest runners intended.

Why the fuck would you revert x-bow into its op state? X-bows are perfectly fine in the current state, just archery is op.
They are all too accurate and their stats are too similar, meaning they don't have the different roles they had in the past.

The OPness of the past state was already declining with increased levels and armor looms for everyone but constant xbow damage values. If it was intended to keep crossbows in their previous strong position, the MW Arbalest + MW Steel Bolts damage would have been increased from 100 to around 110 to reflect increased levels and the vast presence of armor looms. Most players loom their weapons first, but after hundreds of giveaways, flashsales, and the long grinding time this mod is around, it is safe to assume that 90%+ of the active population have at least one fully loomed heavy armor set. The time where 100 damage hit a level 31 character in unloomed armor are over; now it's 100 damage with reduced armor penetration attributes, a level 37+ character and a fully loomed set in an ironflesh meta.

As I said above, the STR requirements will still reflect the level patch. But the remaining stats will be reverted, primarily to regain the WM requirement curve, the non-pinpoint accuracy and making lower-tier crossbows usable due to old trajectory and reload time.

Edit: Feel free to link to this thread in General Discussion, but I won't move it because people need to learn to browse other relevant sections as well. We don't have the Game Balance section to discuss balance in General Discussion.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: sF_Guardian on March 21, 2016, 11:14:06 pm
(click to show/hide)

Keeping the STR requirements is at least something. Even though I still dont really agree with the decision is makes it easier for me to deal with it. Thanks for carification.
Also I don't think the majority of players is lvl 37+. Everyone pretty much has a fully loomed set of armor but some ppl. are still retiring.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rhekimos on March 21, 2016, 11:20:52 pm
Interesting. Thanks for taking your time to communicate these.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 21, 2016, 11:42:48 pm
(click to show/hide)

I feel as if these would change little, at least some of them.

1. Strength is definitely the stronger attribute already, im sure most people base their builds off str just like me. Ive been a hardcore agility player for the entire mod up to like 2014/early 15, and i will probably not go back since agility builds now are basically "fun" builds, not necessarily good builds. Armor crutching being a huge part of the game now isnt based on it being accessible, its that its so fucking good. With a str build, some ironflesh and a loomed heavy armor you can take a ton of hits unless you get unlucky. Basically everyone is running around in heavy/plate armor these days, and quick pickoffs just arent a thing, if you are equal in numbers, but enemies have more armor, they probably push through because they simply tank spam and deal more damage, its hard to deal with. I'd suggest an overall melee damage increase, i think it could be fun to have some punishing hits, kind of like the old days before armor soak system was changed. Maybe it wont be as fun in the long run, dying super quickly might be annoying, but then again you would also kill most people quickly.

2. I active block, i dont expect block, if anything thats what i would assume new players do, panic block one direction after theyve swung and then attempt to correct it if its wrong. I wouldnt be against some changes to the speeds of the game, but it already feels slow many times tbh.

3. Dont revert the new 1h swings, they are actually buffs to the weapon that i feel is lower tier than pole/2h. Right swing isnt like a left swing, it has some potential for early hits but its definitely used for range mainly. Very good swing, i absolutely loved the update that added it. The stab is pretty damn good too, and it should be! The previous one was, afaik, clunky, short and just not that good. Id rather have a good stab than a bad one. Do not revert pls, 1h needs their animations, theyre already behind on damage.

If you want more glancing and more high power hits, then you need to change the armor soak values that were fiddled with way back when. But, as i remember, the change was needed and made the game much more enjoyable.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Nehvar on March 22, 2016, 12:00:14 am
Would reverting to the old leveling system be a possibility?  It seems like it would go a long way to solving balance issues.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Dupre on March 22, 2016, 12:39:48 am
Would reverting to the old leveling system be a possibility?  It seems like it would go a long way to solving balance issues.

Not possible.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: mcdeath on March 22, 2016, 12:46:05 am
Something I noticed with the recent xbow change was that it took me 8 seconds to reload my +3 hunting xbow with 177 wpf. I also enjoy playing HX from time to time and it took 16 seconds with 177 wpf. I don't know how relpad speeds are for the other crossbows but the hunting crossbow shouldn't take that long to reload.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on March 22, 2016, 12:51:02 am
When is this happening? Can we get a respec so I can use my hx build that I always used til the last xbow reload speed nerf ? I just used my free respec yesterday and if I wasn't so far into 37 I would just do a penalized respec.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 01:04:02 am
an inbuilt option to give a global free respec and a global free heirloom exchange are planned but we must see how we get there
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 22, 2016, 01:06:36 am
I totally agree with sweet spots of animation. Instahits are bad in terms of balance and gameplay, It make you feel like armor do not protect you, game is more based on low ping and it feels way more laggy.

I also agree with str requirements, new lvl meta shifted from 18 18 to 21 21.

Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Bobthehero on March 22, 2016, 01:10:29 am
Oh man, revert the 1h stab for the love of everything that is holy

Edit: Revert it to Native, that is.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 22, 2016, 01:20:39 am
btw that really should be in general discussion
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Shemaforash on March 22, 2016, 01:24:00 am
Revert all sweetspot changes, they abuse the animation and ruin the feel of when an attack should actually hit
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Prpavi on March 22, 2016, 01:56:16 am
I suggest you hurry it up, if you wait much longer there won't be anyone to release it to.

Looking forward to the patch.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: gallonigher on March 22, 2016, 02:33:13 am
I agree with most of what I read on the OP so bring on the patch!  :D
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: xxkaliboyx on March 22, 2016, 02:53:51 am
revert Long Spear LOLSTabs


Fuck pikes. let them rot
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Taser on March 22, 2016, 03:19:42 am
Changes!

visitors can't see pics , please register or login




Hermit and Colbert aside, I do agree with some of the changes. I don't think 1h is overly powerful but I am 1h (altho I don't use a 1h with stab) so maybe I'm biased. Altho I will say I hate 1h overhead with a passion. It can be great but its too slow to turn with that and I miss ppl sometimes.

Anyway I am definitely for a fighting system in which you try to mess the person up and having them block incorrectly instead of hitting them before they can react. I don't think its overly a problem but it can be a problem at times.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: XyNox on March 22, 2016, 03:21:54 am
The already cancerous STR archer meta is further promoted by the increase of bow requirements. If you increase the requirement of a bow, you buff it. Keep in mind that you can skill up to 4 PD more than the requirement to get 14% bonus damage per PD. With PD increasing accuracy since the Tydeus Era, there is no reason not to always skill PD exceeding the bow requirement you are using by 4. With 7 PD requirement bows available, every archer skills 11 PD to max out damage on all bows, and won't face any malus other than the opportunity cost of not having more athletics. This opportunity cost is not very high since the weight on quivers makes kiting impossible in the first place. 7 PD requirement bows and PD increasing accuracy are pure madness. The result is an archer who hits as hard as an Arbalest user with similar accuracy, but at 6 or 7 times the rate of fire.

Rico, I have to say you are probably one of the most rational members of this community I have come across. The indicated parts here though pose a highly subjective opinion.

I do not really see how anyone is to judge whether a class-meta being str/agi centric is considered cancerous. Claiming that skilling for req + 4 PD is the obvious practice also seems just quite unconsidered. When we are talking about bows that have low PD requirements, sure, maxing your PD 4 over the requirement still gives you enough skill points to get agi/WM/ath values that are sufficient enough to not be completely helpless when it comes to melee. With bow requirements as high as 7, meaning a mandatory 33 points spent in STR, the story is very, very different.

You seem to completely abandon hybrids there which, I would assume, is relevant to more people than those who strictly plan on playing pure archers.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: McKli_PL on March 22, 2016, 04:29:14 am
hmmm why do you want to change so hardcore this beautiful game, seriously in my humble opinion balance between classes and weapons/armors are just perfect, utilisation of str/balanced/agi builds are just based more on player skill more than ever only one thing is horrible i mean rubberbanding, sometimes server is so awful that is hard to describe :cry:
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Jona on March 22, 2016, 04:47:10 am
While there are definitely plenty of low str-requirement weapons out there, I don't think the str requirement cap should be pushed too high. The great maul/long maul currently have a 24 str requirement, a change made after the high level patch. If xbows are keeping the 24 str cap for the arbalest, I think that all melee weapons should just be adjusted according to this standard, where  24 str = high str requirement, and then all the currently 12 str-requirement or so weapons can be bumped up much higher. MAYBE push the 24 str cap up to 27 for the really heavy weapons, like mauls and what not, but I've never been a fan of str caps simply because all it does is limit your options, and crpg is all about doing whatever you want, at the cost of efficiency. If there were some way to simply punish someone using a long maul with 1 str, while still allowing them to use it, that'd be ideal. But we all know that won't happen anytime soon, which is why I'd recommend conservative str requirement increases. Not to mention almost all of the high str weapons are already far slower than their low requirement counterparts, thus meaning you are far more likely to "break animations" with something like a wooden stick than a warhammer.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 06:33:18 am
@Xynox
I don't understand fully what you are saying. Please elaborate your point further.
I will tell you what I think I understood and reply, but keep in mind that I may be wrong.

I do not really see how anyone is to judge whether a class-meta being str/agi centric is considered cancerous.
The reasoning is based on the observation that weak archers who can kite are less dangerous to infantry and cavalry than strong archers who can't. It is evident that horses currently die quite quickly against STR archers, so cavalry loses their role of being a natural counter. Furthermore, the ability for infantry to catch up with archers who try to run away is not very valuable when you compare it with the archer's ability of trying multiple times to deliver a headshot that deals more damage than an Arbalest while the infantry player is approaching; and these attempts are usually quite successful because PD decreases crosshair size and increases projectile speed. This is an issue because archers compromise the fun of melee players if they are too strong and don't face any real trade-offs when deciding to maximize STR.

A sophisticated archery balance would make most combinations of STR and AGI except for the very extreme ones equally viable. For example, a 15/30 archer would be as good as a 30/15 archer, except for different reasons. The 15/30 archer I have in mind has superior mobility and accuracy than the 30/15 archer, and while he is unable to deal serious damage against infantry players, he excels at hunting other archers. The 30/15 archer hunts infantry, but gets into serious trouble because of accuracy issues when fighting the rapidly moving 15/30 archer. In the current balance, a 30/15 archer is powerful against infantry, but also powerful against other archers because he is just as accurate as his 15/30 counterpart. On top, the 30/15 archer even gets higher missile speed than the 15/30 archer, making the shots easier to land. Agi archers on the other hand get only a part of what the STR archer gets, namely the accuracy part, but not the damage, not the missile speed, and due to heavy quivers, the mobility is not as notable as you would expect.

This makes STR the strictly better skill for archers, which means it is best practice to maximize it. This leads me to my next assumption.

Claiming that skilling for req + 4 PD is the obvious practice also seems just quite unconsidered.
The arguments above explain why I make this claim. But there is also empirical evidence. To my knowledge, the majority of DRZ archers uses such builds, and I doubt I am defying common sense when I point out that they are the most deadly archers in cRPG ever since the mod exists. When you look at competitive play, you look at people who do well; these are not few unrepresentative prodigies who play well with any class, build and equipment, but homogeneous collectives who maximize their performance through streamlined builds and above-average play. I don't think it is wrong to primarily look at successful competitive collectives, because balance decisions are all about creating an environment of fair competition for as many people as possible.

You seem to completely abandon hybrids there which, I would assume, is relevant to more people than those who strictly plan on playing pure archers.
Hybrids cannot be better than pure builds because hybrids can do more than one thing. They knowingly handicap themselves in their main skill to get an extra area where they aren't exactly good but at least don't fail completely. For example a hybrid can shoot and fight in melee, but note that they can only do one of the two at the same time. An archer who invests 100% of his skills into ranged and shoots 100% of the time is better than an archer who invests 50% of his skills into ranged and 50% into melee, and then shoots 50% of the time and melees 50% of the time: 100%x100%=100%; 50%x50%+50%x50%=25%+25%=50%; 100%>50%

As soon as you have melee teammates, shooting 100% of the time is going to work, because even though there might be a 4v5 melee situation, your 4 teammates can stall the 5 enemies for long enough for you to shoot some; since you position yourself in a smart way.

Hybrids are theoretically and practically always inferior to pure builds. The problem however is that players can decide their builds freely, and there is no effective way of forcing somebody not to go for pure builds. If there are people who enjoy playing hybrid, or do so out of fairness towards others, they might play hybrid, but we will never get the guarantee that everyone chooses to play hybrid. As soon as there is at least 1 person who does not play hybrid but a pure build, he raises the bar of competitive archery gameplay and thus our foundation for balance. Keep in mind that balance is about creating an environment of fair competition for as many people as possible, and hybrids cannot be in the focus of balance, because they deliberately choose to undermine their competitive potential for reasons beyond our control.

Where to draw the line when it comes to what a hybrid should still be able or already be unable to do is of course difficult. I am not the right guy to decide the next big archery balance change. But it's clear to me that the pre-Raylin balance worked better than the post-Raylin balance: No high missile speed for high-tier bows so that Agi archers get the effective-shot-distance-advantage over STR archers, and no 7PD bows which make 11PD non-hybrid archers incredibly strong, and overall lower requirements so that low-tier bows have a notably (not only cosmetically) lower damage potential than high tier bows.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 06:59:05 am
There is no problem with agility, people don't swing weapons too fast at all.

Strength is a huge problem, people are too tanky, melee and archers hit too hard.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 07:08:31 am
Also crossbows were never OP on balanced maps, the only reason people thought crossbows were OP is because the map rotation sucks and lets ranged players camp in places cavalry can't get to. Revert crossbows to how they were and change the map rotation.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: MURDERTRON on March 22, 2016, 08:31:15 am
The maps need a serious review.  Most of them are essentially uncavable and yet have needless huge hills where archers can shoot from continuously like its Bunker Hill.  Also huge hills take away damage potential for cavalry and funnel them into predictable kill zones.  I don't really understand the obsession with maps needing to have iconic features, they generally make for horrible gameplay.  Yes, generic village A and C were better maps, especially since they didn't have roof access.

Also, forcing melee builds to have IF was a pretty bad idea.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: a_bear_irl on March 22, 2016, 09:13:45 am
Although we highly appreciate the work Raylin has put into contributing to cRPG and would like to emphasize that the majority of the new items since revival patch were made thanks to his tireless efforts, we realized that it is not economic to keep working with his balance patch. cRPG is facing a difficult crisis due to the broken compiler and unavailable devs, and especially at a time like this, we cannot let internal politics undermine the progress of the mod. Permanently compromising balance to express gratitude for the outstanding work he has done in the past is no option.

the idea that some drooling retard sperg has been demanding the balance be kept awful on purpose so that people use his items is pretty hilarious, and in a normal game where the people doing balance actually play the game i'd be amazed but this is crpg so i'm not even surprised.

now while you're reverting godawful balance changes that literally nobody who played the game ever liked, how about getting rid of the turn speed nerf? reminder that the only people who wanted it were CMP and paul, people who hadn't played in years even back then

Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: McKli_PL on March 22, 2016, 09:45:58 am
I will tell you what I think I understood and reply, but keep in mind that I may be wrong. (Yep ur, nothing new  :P )
The reasoning is based on the observation that weak archers who can kite are less dangerous to infantry and cavalry than strong archers who can't. It is evident that horses currently die quite quickly against STR archers, so cavalry loses their role of being a natural counter. Furthermore, the ability for infantry to catch up with archers who try to run away is not very valuable when you compare it with the archer's ability of trying multiple times to deliver a headshot that deals more damage than an Arbalest while the infantry player is approaching; and these attempts are usually quite successful because PD decreases crosshair size and increases projectile speed. This is an issue because archers compromise the fun of ->Pseudo<- :mrgreen: melee players if they are too strong and don't face any real trade-offs when deciding to maximize STR.

well, how to describe something to a guy who knows shit about archery in this game, in a nice words i will try anyway :mrgreen:
builds for archers:

Old sql rus bow/longbow pre patch build->18/27<- still ultra good and solid build, extremely good versus all kind of archers, ok vs Infantry if pewpew is headshot hunting only or bodyhiting agi/peasants
old sql Uzi build nomand bow ->15/30<- killer of agi inf and all kind of pure trowers builds, very good for players who can't play in FPS mode just run and spam(arrows)

and novadays builds after big revival patch: (i will focus on them more coz they are very popular)

->24/21&21/24<- the best and more easy to play than other builds for every one, beginners/full pro doesn't matter and most versatile build ever, there are no big cons for those builds exept maybe they are fragile
but like ppl are saying learn2dogde and l2b.
Pros are just awesome very fast archer can kite like he wants, and most important thing is he can fast switch places and this little thing is just crucial for archers witch good ath u can just headshot hunt like u want no need a good spot coz if u know how to dodge enemy archers/trowers are not so deadly and another crucial thing is u can go with your team without any hesitation that is  a) ur not too slow like on str build u go with a team and support them b) if ur team wants to retreat or regroup it's just so simple no need to stress like on str that u will be an easy target for enemy cav attacking from behind (in most cases it's just an end for str pewpew or he gonna get ganked by melee)

->27/21&27/18<-the high level 'hybrids'-  personaly i don't like these builds and i will try to explain why to choose other path it's better,
27/21 is a +1 PD more than classic 24/21 but that 'one point' it's like over-investing, if u can't '1 headshot 1 kill' against ->real melee<- (not some shiters in pyjamas with zero brain) with a rusbow/longbow why even to add this point and get low PS, if melee can survive HS and archer is on low PS it's just bit dramatic still it's very playable build.

27/18 same build but with more PS, same as above no 1HS=1 frag but with more PS it's easier to 'finish' opponent, but the biggest con for 27/18 is low Ath, if a bunch of happy enemy players are just rushing u and u can't 1hs them u  can't kite so fast like with 7ath, so that's why i don't like those two builds, they are very good vs cav but all in all path of classic 24/21 or 30/15 are much better imo

->30/15<- eSuba ranger,  extremely dangerous build and hardest build to play or adapt, very low accuracy and ultra slow releasing arrows can be a huge no go for beginners, if some is dedicated enough to live with cons like: low ath- i mean it's kurwa so low with rusbow and 2 quivers that u just can't even  switch places, if ur team is a just a bunch of pseudo melee u will be so pissed like hell when cav and enemy team is attacking from behind, there is no way even to kite a ->fully plated player<- with 30/15 so there are two options get good with headshooting and get even better at melee with ->4 wpf<- on, so in tldr 30/15 build is very hard to adapt and it's a very reliable on melee in archer team, with shit team is just a hardcore BUT with a good and stronk melee this fucking build will shine like a diamond.
last tldr:  i know only ->4 ppl<-who can play very solid with 30/15 so if so agi crossbow dumbo or other braindamged pseudo 2h will write a bulshit like something that str archers are OP when most of archer player base is 24/21 i will piss on his grave :lol:

->33/15&30/21- Strat ALL IN builds: it's same as above but with 0 PS and sometimes 0 ath (min maxed build), its an AWP build for long time huge PD and ok accuracy (naked or half naked EQ) means that on STRAT battlefield ur just a turret, headshots are deadly and hunting for enemy archer is also easy with 30/21 cos of huge PD/WPF but like most of the players and balancers Battle server is THE THING, so those builds are not so good for a battle server, no PS means ur dead or just so dedicated to block enemy player until he will die on tyfus, low ath means everyone just attacks u  whenever they wants, u need a good spot on battle server to shoot, and u need a big protection from melee so it's a good build but for strat i played it for a long time but it's shit on daily basis, just way too much cons to bypass to shine

'PD decreases crosshair size and increases projectile speed' nope, it's not working like u describe, PD will not lower ur crosshair on any bow and missile speed is a constant value, PD only gives u straight projectile parabolic aka native lasser shooting less up/down trajectory, that's why now 'shitty' bows are so popular.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Molly on March 22, 2016, 09:56:45 am
I suggest you hurry it up, if you wait much longer there won't be anyone to release it to.

Looking forward to the patch.
This really.
I know it's all voluntary work and we shouldn't expect anything and all that.
But if you wanna change something, you're better talking about days not weeks nor months...

Change is always good. Mixes things up.
Except 1h. I used to play quite a lot 1h no shield before the changes and it was a rarely seen and rather weak thing to do. The 1h patch did something good and is one of the few success stories of this mod. Leave 1h be. It's perfectly fine in its current state.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Templar_Steevee on March 22, 2016, 10:00:56 am
Reverting u mentioned means to get rid of new bows, or just changing their stats?

+ from me for that revert incoming, missile speed is too high on arrows atm :)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 10:57:24 am
...
I'm impressed to get such a differentiated experience review on archery builds for a patch that's only online for 34 days. You must have been playing very actively.

Although your evaluation suggests that extreme STR builds are less popular than I suspected, it still shows that STR archery is currently dominating. An ideally balanced state of diversity would envision a bell-shaped distribution with a balanced build in the center and symmetric tails, so that players actually choose by personal preference, not according to a predetermined meta distorted towards one or the other attribute.

As I said before, I certainly won't decide future archery changes by myself, play a big role in influencing these decisions or even just moderate such a discussion. I simply don't know enough about archery to do that.

But I believe that enough indications illustrate that the previous trade-offs between crossbow and archery have been replaced by a significant un-balance favoring archers, which is why we are reverting. The contributors I talked to and the community's feedback seem to agree.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Casul on March 22, 2016, 11:01:28 am
Could we also please add the female version of the plated light brigandine if thats possible?  I look fat but armor is so beautiful :C
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 11:09:01 am
the idea that some drooling retard sperg has been demanding the balance be kept awful on purpose so that people use his items is pretty hilarious, and in a normal game where the people doing balance actually play the game i'd be amazed but this is crpg so i'm not even surprised.
That's a rude thing to say and unfair towards Raylin. He didn't blackmail us in any way; that's just an assumption on your part. It did seem fishy when he complained about alleged shortcomings of the previous balance, announced that he will take matters into his own hands and think about playing significantly less if the community were to reject his changes, but that is his decision to make and it merely shows that he was quite emotionally invested, which is not necessarily a bad thing. After arriving at the compromise of a balance experiment instead of a "normal" patch, the possibility of reverting was always on the horizon. Nobody in this mod has enough bargaining power over others to get through with a massive ego-trip at the expense of the community; contributors including Raylin know that and won't implement anything they aren't convinced of themselves.

now while you're reverting godawful balance changes that literally nobody who played the game ever liked, how about getting rid of the turn speed nerf? reminder that the only people who wanted it were CMP and paul, people who hadn't played in years even back then
I am a great turnrate nerf hater, but won't do anything before reaching a consensus. The topic is on the table though.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 11:13:51 am
Reverting u mentioned means to get rid of new bows, or just changing their stats?

+ from me for that revert incoming, missile speed is too high on arrows atm :)

We won't remove items, but they won't retain their stats. The new bows will most likely be a spin-off version of the old bows, since reverting has priority and new stuff that gets implemented does so in a way that doesn't compromise the old balance concept.

Could we also please add the female version of the plated light brigandine if thats possible?  I look fat but armor is so beautiful :C
I'll look into it after I get file access; please post off-topic suggestions in Suggestion's Corner. This thread is mainly a Balance Experiment Wrap-Up Q&A and sweetspot discussion.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 11:30:38 am
I am a great turnrate nerf hater, but won't do anything before reaching a consensus. The topic is on the table though.

Of all the good and bad changes made, i still feel as if this was the least needed and most gameplay ruining change, the one that has stood out to me pretty much every single day ive played since it happened, and probaly my most common cause of rq still. The speed of the game doesnt allow for slow turns, from my experience that is. But people really disliked the spin stab spazzy moves, maybe because of how it looks ridiculous. It added more feints, phyrex made exceptional use of it and it was great fun to duel him.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: bagge on March 22, 2016, 11:30:44 am
Soo Rus Bow will be back to normal? Plez
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 11:31:35 am
Rico can I ask why you and others are at all involved in cRPG item balancing? I don't mean this as an insult but you are not good players and never were, and don't understand fundamental concepts about the game. Being open to suggestions like you are is a bad idea because you don't understand the consequences of what people suggest.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 11:32:55 am
I throw down the gauntlet and demand to be made an item balancer.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Casul on March 22, 2016, 11:37:02 am
I don't mean this as an insult but you are not good players and never were

I'd rather have a calm objective bad paying item balancer than a shortsighted tryharding minmaxer
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 11:44:27 am
I'd rather have a calm objective bad paying item balancer than a shortsighted tryharding minmaxer

Except all the recent changes are the exact opposite of calm and objective, and are most definitely shortsighted.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Ikarus on March 22, 2016, 11:46:54 am
Regarding to xbows: I think we don´t have to completely reset them back to the old state. There are just some minor things to do like reducing the reload time of the light xbows (HX should be a reasonable and playable class again), reducing accuracy (and maybe a bit of missile speed? They sometimes feel like guns since the bolts instahit).
The difference between arbalest and heavy xbow is finally totally ok. Arbalest needs a fatty str xbow to fight with, while heavy xbow is still sorta reachable if you still want to be able to run.

You guys really put a lot of effort into balancing, really appreciate that  8-)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: a_bear_irl on March 22, 2016, 11:48:49 am
That's a rude thing to say and unfair towards Raylin. He didn't blackmail us in any way; that's just an assumption on your part. It did seem fishy when he complained about alleged shortcomings of the previous balance, announced that he will take matters into his own hands and think about playing significantly less if the community were to reject his changes, but that is his decision to make and it merely shows that he was quite emotionally invested, which is not necessarily a bad thing. After arriving at the compromise of a balance experiment instead of a "normal" patch, the possibility of reverting was always on the horizon. Nobody in this mod has enough bargaining power over others to get through with a massive ego-trip at the expense of the community; contributors including Raylin know that and won't implement anything they aren't convinced of themselves.
I am a great turnrate nerf hater, but won't do anything before reaching a consensus. The topic is on the table though.

lmao, yeah ok he didn't blackmail you he just said he would stop playing and not do whatever it was he was doing if you didn't implement his "suggestions" aka godawful shit that only a delusional ranged-only player with absolutely no grasp on basic game mechanics might think were ok. it doesnt matter how much he contributed, if his suggestions were bad they should have been ignored. i don't know what raylin did in terms of items, exactly, but i'm willing to bet theres someone else out there who can retexture rus scale models from 5 years ago. honestly if i were in charge i would have just banned him the instant he started threatening to leave if his suggestions were ignored. like really, read this sentence back to yourself: "announced that he will take matters into his own hands and think about playing significantly less if the community were to reject his changes" why did you listen to this ape?

also re turnrate nerf, i dare you to find a post from a top 10% melee player supporting it, the only people who ever thought it was a good idea were the trashcans that lost duels with jumping pikemen

I'd rather have a calm objective bad paying item balancer than a shortsighted tryharding minmaxer

badplayer is responsible for a lot of good balance changes, and he repeatedly called for nerfs to heavy cav even when he was crutching heavy cav on battle for months on end
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 11:56:18 am
(click to show/hide)

Isnt that like the average cav K/D? *cough* nerf!*cough*
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Casul on March 22, 2016, 11:57:49 am
I dont see why archers and xbows are so extremly accurate, how on earth is that even somewhat realistic?  Why dont we make archery and xbows a bit stronger but less accurate how it actually should be.

That would solve a lot of problems, such as archers stopping shooting into melee fights and bagge like headshooting from like 100 meters
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 12:05:37 pm
I dont see why archers and xbows are so extremly accurate, how on earth is that even somewhat realistic?  Why dont we make archery and xbows a bit stronger but less accurate how it actually should be.

That would solve a lot of problems, such as archers stopping shooting into melee fights and bagge like headshooting from like 100 meters

This is why you suck!!!!

This is the worst possible balance you could do, you're adding huge elements of randomness and not actually removing the parts that are extremely unfun to play against, and actively reducing the fun level of playing the class.

The high damage is the problem, if you reduce the accuracy all you are doing is making it less fun and skill based for the ranged player, the melee player is still going to get shot by high damage bows because it's not 1 ranged player shooting, it's many. It wouldn't stop ranged shooting into fights with their teammates, it would just lead to more teamhits further reducing the fun for everyone involved.

You literally want to nerf the only skill based and fair part of playing a ranged class, the aiming and specifically getting headshots.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: BlindGuy on March 22, 2016, 12:15:23 pm
Put reflect team damage to ON; 100%

Watch how archers dont shoot into melee anymore :D
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 22, 2016, 12:18:51 pm
(click to show/hide)

You use som wierd ass logick here.

"oi I dont know you but you suck and i am good look at that screanschot form 2 years ago I am sooo good you suck so i am right"
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Malaclypse on March 22, 2016, 12:19:47 pm
Bring back Long Spear overheads, ty
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 12:29:43 pm
Bring back Long Spear overheads, ty

And old polearm overhead hitboxes!
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 12:38:08 pm
Rico can I ask why you and others are at all involved in cRPG item balancing? I don't mean this as an insult but you are not good players and never were, and don't understand fundamental concepts about the game.
I am not responsible for decisions made by previous balancers. My involvement into balance starts with this thread. Whether I'm the right person for the job is something you can decide after I've done something.

Being open to suggestions like you are is a bad idea because you don't understand the consequences of what people suggest.
People who are not open to suggestions make balance a disaster, as frequently proven in the past.

I throw down the gauntlet and demand to be made an item balancer.
If you want to join the contributors team, don't start with trashtalking your future colleagues. You've lost your chance.

You literally want to nerf the only skill based and fair part of playing a ranged class, the aiming and specifically getting headshots.
Compensating for wide crosshairs requires skill; shooting with pinpoint accurate ranged weapons does not. Landing a headshot into a 20 pixel head is harder with a 30 pixel crosshair than with a 1 pixel crosshair, and it doesn't come down to luck. If you center your 30 pixels into the 20 pixels, chances are you'll hit. If you aim at the top left edge of the earlobe with your 1 pixel, you'll still hit although you technically didn't aim at the center of the head.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 12:48:31 pm
Compensating for wide crosshairs requires skill; shooting with pinpoint accurate ranged weapons does not. Landing a headshot into a 20 pixel head is harder with a 30 pixel crosshair than with a 1 pixel crosshair, and it doesn't come down to luck. If you center your 30 pixels into the 20 pixels, chances are you'll hit. If you aim at the top left edge of the earlobe with your 1 pixel, you'll still hit although you technically didn't aim at the center of the head.

Actually, with wider reticules, skill is reduced. It goes down to a luck game where the influence you can do is cover as much area as possible in the wide reticule, so you are forced to shotgun. Imagine cs with wide crosshairs, more skillbased now? i dont think so. Ranged should be accurate, but leading shots and predicting movements should also be where the skill kicks in.

Lets make weapons swing shorter at random intervals, and ranges. See how that will affect the melee gameplay, more skill? nope, you will have to facehug to be safe constantly, but a core part of using the range of your weapon is reduced to rng.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 12:52:19 pm
If you want to join the contributors team, don't start with trashtalking your future colleagues. You've lost your chance.

actually I was already part of the team some years ago when Shik was in charge and i'm the reason for amongst other things- 3slot long spears/pikes, riding requirement increases on heavy horses, the changes to kicks and bump damage being considerably lower.

Maybe you'd know that if you were a relevant person?

And your theories on ranged are exactly the reason you suck at game balance!
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 22, 2016, 12:53:12 pm
Actually, with wider reticules, skill is reduced. It goes down to a luck game where the influence you can do is cover as much area as possible in the wide reticule, so you are forced to shotgun. Imagine cs with wide crosshairs, more skillbased now? i dont think so. Ranged should be accurate, but leading shots and predicting movements should also be where the skill kicks in.

Lets make weapons swing shorter at random intervals, and ranges. See how that will affect the melee gameplay, more skill? nope, you will have to facehug to be safe constantly, but a core part of using the range of your weapon is reduced to rng.

This guy gets it.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 22, 2016, 12:55:48 pm
actually I was already part of the team some years ago when Shik was in charge and i'm the reason for amongst other things- 2slot long spears/pikes, riding requirement increases on heavy horses, the changes to kicks and bump damage being considerably lower.

Maybe you'd know that if you were a relevant person?

And your theories on ranged are exactly the reason you suck at game balance!
get lost and never come back
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: a_bear_irl on March 22, 2016, 01:01:12 pm
Compensating for wide crosshairs requires skill; shooting with pinpoint accurate ranged weapons does not. Landing a headshot into a 20 pixel head is harder with a 30 pixel crosshair than with a 1 pixel crosshair, and it doesn't come down to luck. If you center your 30 pixels into the 20 pixels, chances are you'll hit. If you aim at the top left edge of the earlobe with your 1 pixel, you'll still hit although you technically didn't aim at the center of the head.

it's the same exact skill being used except one scenario rewards it more, imagine you were perfectly accurate every single time you shot, the best possible archer. in one scenario RNG means you miss 30% of your perfectly aimed shots, in the other they go exactly where you aim them. which scenario rewards your skill more?

now that said IMO the archer cone of fire should be doubled at least, and each bow should weigh what a full suit of gothic plate does. also bows should have half the turn speed of a pike.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 01:10:14 pm
I'd just like to point out that looking at the game through nerf-goggles will only make the game less enjoyable. A faster paced, more rewarding experience will come from buffs, where things are actually enjoyable to play and not gimped to fuck.

Obviously ranged missile speed is too fast now, but as a tradeoff i think ranged could get damage boost. And to counter that shields should also get buffs. This way both ranged and shields will become more enjoyable to play, as of now i feel shields are a bit of a burden, even in melee they slow you down too much, and dont have the coverage to make up for it either.
Ranged could instead of getting flat out damage boosts, the headshot bonus could be raised, reward skillful shooting, keep body shots as they are.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 22, 2016, 01:13:58 pm
I'd just like to point out that looking at the game through nerf-goggles will only make the game less enjoyable. A faster paced, more rewarding experience will come from buffs, where things are actually enjoyable to play and not gimped to fuck.

Obviously ranged missile speed is too fast now, but as a tradeoff i think ranged could get damage boost. And to counter that shields should also get buffs. This way both ranged and shields will become more enjoyable to play, as of now i feel shields are a bit of a burden, even in melee they slow you down too much, and dont have the coverage to make up for it either.
Ranged could instead of getting flat out damage boosts, the headshot bonus could be raised, reward skillful shooting, keep body shots as they are.
if you buff shields they will get even stronger on horseback
and they are close to OP now on horesback
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 01:17:34 pm
if you buff shields they will get even stronger on horseback
and they are close to OP now on horesback

They are already at the point where more will not make much of a difference, they cover the entire horse so. Sometimes a stab gets through and hits the head for a rear, i doubt more width would change that.

With the bump slash nerf i think keeping their massive forcefield is needed anyways, cav still super strong, but i think thats where it needs to be.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 01:29:44 pm
it's the same exact skill being used except one scenario rewards it more
Not quite; imagine a player has a jittery hand, thus consistently misses the pixel he wants to aim at by an average of 10 pixels into any direction. He wants to aim at the center of a 20 pixels sized head with a pinpoint accurate weapon. Instead, he slips as usual and hits a point 10 pixels away from the center of the head. Due to the pinpoint accurate weapon, the shot hits the 20 pixels sized head missing the center by 10 pixels. It is still a headshot.

In the next case, imagine the jittery player uses a weapon with a 20 pixels sized crosshair. He wants to aim at the center of the 20 pixels sized head again, but slips by 10 pixels. 50% of the 20 pixels sized crosshair is now outside the area of the 20 pixels sized head, meaning he will miss with a likelihood of 50%.

Now assume a player with perfect aim and a weapon with a 20 pixels wide crosshair. He aims at the center of the 20 pixels sized head, doesn't slip unlike the jittery one, and the shot hits despite the inaccuracy of the weapon because the crosshair perfectly overlaps the head.

The pinpoint accurate system does the jittery player a favor, because he is able to land shots he otherwise wouldn't. The perfectly aiming player is indifferent about pinpoint accuracy or the 20 pixels sized crosshair, because he hits either way.

Consequently, the pinpoint accurate system promotes careless shooting into the general direction of the head, whereas the system involving randomness requires special care to center the wide crosshair over an equally-sized area. The prior needs less skill, the latter needs more.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 22, 2016, 01:30:59 pm
I think that nerf to bump slash was bad idea, for example morningstar is almost unusable from horseback due to shit dmg after bump.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 01:42:41 pm
(click to show/hide)

This only applies to that certain range, increase it and suddenly the pixels of the head are smaller than the pixels of the crosshair, so the rng becomes a factor. And what range is this based on, 10 meters? or 30? if 10, then thats not really a valid range to balance around, 30 sure but then the reticule difference between the two would be so minor it would take insane effort to get it to that point, compared to just making it pinpoint. And even then it would make such a slight difference its just not worth.

I think that nerf to bump slash was bad idea, for example morningstar is almost unusable from horseback due to shit dmg after bump.

I've always been of the opinion that bumps are insanely strong, now at least they are leaning more towards a supportive action, instead of a free hit through block. Bump slash onehit deaths were not fun at all. Now youre simply forced to either hit unaware targets in the back, or bump as a supportive move. I think it was a necessary means for balance.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 02:00:34 pm
This only applies to that certain range, increase it and suddenly the pixels of the head are smaller than the pixels of the crosshair, so the rng becomes a factor.
Whenever you cannot compensate for the crosshair size with more careful aim, it might be smart to reposition and get closer to the target. There is always a skill-component involved, either in the aiming, or in the decision to move. Rng is not outside your control, in this case.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 22, 2016, 02:06:43 pm
Whenever you cannot compensate for the crosshair size with more careful aim, it might be smart to reposition and get closer to the target. There is always a skill-component involved, either in the aiming, or in the decision to move. Rng is not outside your control, in this case.

But like i mentioned, what range would this be balanced for, because at more than very close-range, the pixels are so small that the reticule sizes would be very specific to fit your point. And then it would just feel more consistent to have full precision instead anyway. It wouldnt be an enjoyable skill increase, and to the player it would feel like rng, and not a misposition, or non-perfect shot.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2016, 02:16:32 pm
But like i mentioned, what range would this be balanced for
Arbalest has the potential to land headshots across the map, Hunting Crossbow is a reliable hitter on short distance. We know this by experience. Put the other crossbows in between, make missile speed reflect this concept, scale up requirements in a near-linear fashion, make speed rating anti-proportional to crosshair size, and you have the old balance, which made perfect sense.

Applying the skill vs. rng argumentation, players who manage to pull off long-distance headshots with inaccurate low-tier crossbows would be the most skilled. Weren would probably 100% agree with this, as a dedicated pre-patch Hunting Crossbow user. If you tell him he gets his kills from mere chance, he will chuckle.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Jona on March 22, 2016, 02:40:35 pm
Keep ranged accurate, just lower missile speeds (and maybe damage? Idk how good/bad it is currently) across the board.  This way the skilled archers will know how to both aim and lead their (moving) targets. There should still be some small amount of RNG for the low-level or un-optimized  archer builds out there, but the high(er) level, dedicated archers should be accurate, and need to compensate with their knowledge of projectile speeds.

I'd just like to point out that looking at the game through nerf-goggles will only make the game less enjoyable. A faster paced, more rewarding experience will come from buffs, where things are actually enjoyable to play and not gimped to fuck.

Faster paced is indeed better, however not everyone is blessed with 10 ping, so you have to find the sweetspot between pace and lag. I think that the current meta is pretty decent in that regard, and I'm not quite certain why some still view agi as completely game breaking, I think the strength-agility dynamic might be as balanced as it has ever been currently. Anyone can break/abuse animations if they are "skilled" enough, doesn't matter if they have 1wpf or 200wpf.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Pandor_Archer on March 22, 2016, 04:43:57 pm
What is STR archer? All good archers that i know have not less that 21 agi. The problem nowdays that missile speed is extremly high. That makes archery easy and too many ppl can be good at it. Thats why archers are bane atm. Tell me if i wrong but situation before last patch was ok? Im up for - missile speed but + accuracy, lowering missile speed will also lower dmg. I agree about mele revert.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Pandor_Archer on March 22, 2016, 05:08:18 pm
Not quite; imagine a player has a jittery hand, thus consistently misses the pixel he wants to aim at by an average of 10 pixels into any direction. He wants to aim at the center of a 20 pixels sized head with a pinpoint accurate weapon. Instead, he slips as usual and hits a point 10 pixels away from the center of the head. Due to the pinpoint accurate weapon, the shot hits the 20 pixels sized head missing the center by 10 pixels. It is still a headshot.

In the next case, imagine the jittery player uses a weapon with a 20 pixels sized crosshair. He wants to aim at the center of the 20 pixels sized head again, but slips by 10 pixels. 50% of the 20 pixels sized crosshair is now outside the area of the 20 pixels sized head, meaning he will miss with a likelihood of 50%.

Now assume a player with perfect aim and a weapon with a 20 pixels wide crosshair. He aims at the center of the 20 pixels sized head, doesn't slip unlike the jittery one, and the shot hits despite the inaccuracy of the weapon because the crosshair perfectly overlaps the head.

The pinpoint accurate system does the jittery player a favor, because he is able to land shots he otherwise wouldn't. The perfectly aiming player is indifferent about pinpoint accuracy or the 20 pixels sized crosshair, because he hits either way.

Consequently, the pinpoint accurate system promotes careless shooting into the general direction of the head, whereas the system involving randomness requires special care to center the wide crosshair over an equally-sized area. The prior needs less skill, the latter needs more.
My english skill isnt that good to be sure that i 100% understood u, but u mean no mater how many accuracy u have all u need to get enemy head in a center of your crosshair no mater how big it is? Well if so its totaly wrong coz arrow most likely wont fly at the center.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gmnotutoo on March 22, 2016, 05:17:45 pm
I view the combat pacing at this moment to be on the slow side and I'd prefer an increase in tempo.

I forgot who mentioned it but I do not want to see the strength difficulty increased on weapons.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Molly on March 22, 2016, 05:20:35 pm
Keep ranged accurate, just lower missile speeds (and maybe damage? Idk how good/bad it is currently) across the board.  This way the skilled archers will know how to both aim and lead their (moving) targets. There should still be some small amount of RNG for the low-level or un-optimized  archer builds out there, but the high(er) level, dedicated archers should be accurate, and need to compensate with their knowledge of projectile speeds.

Faster paced is indeed better, however not everyone is blessed with 10 ping, so you have to find the sweetspot between pace and lag. I think that the current meta is pretty decent in that regard, and I'm not quite certain why some still view agi as completely game breaking, I think the strength-agility dynamic might be as balanced as it has ever been currently. Anyone can break/abuse animations if they are "skilled" enough, doesn't matter if they have 1wpf or 200wpf.
This sounds both very good to me.
It used to be like Arbalest reloads really slow but the distance coverage and accuracy was the reward while the light and hunting crossbow offered fast reloading for players who wanted to stick to the main bulk of the team.
With the current reload speed the latter approach to xbows is hardly possible anymore.
Personally, I mostly went with the Crossbow as standard weapon and then switched between the Arba and Hunting xbow when the map made certain adjustments to play style reasonable. That was actually the part that made me enjoy the class a lot. Right now the low tier xbows reload so slow that there barely is any advantage in that regard to the Crossbow nor Arbalest. Therefore I simply stopped switching completely. It took away a huge part of the xbow gameplay, imho.

Personally I think the balancing between the weapon trees has never been better - pole/1h/2h are all competitive across the board with each other. If something should be changed in that regard, only minor adjustments please.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gmnotutoo on March 22, 2016, 05:38:54 pm
For the strength archer thing, I've had a strength archer build for the last five years and the only thing that seemed to change is the missile speed being faster. You're seeing more strength archers today because of all the shiny new bows.

Decrease the PD req of some of these new bows and slow the missile speed a bit, leave 6pd as the highest number except for event bows.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: the real god emperor on March 22, 2016, 05:47:06 pm
Great work guys.

Reverting weapon hitboxes to old times is a good idea and I don't see "bouncing off armor" as a negative effect, its a part of the game mechanic.And since all the armors are going to get higher STR requirements, that perk is necessary for STR people, since they can't move around a lot. In the current state of cRPG, a Katana guy with 12 STR can easily win against a STR build guy, because the damage is insane and the glancing from armor is not happening at all.Also my experience against stabs; I think they are ridiculously fast. Stab weapons are fast and small already, the animation makes it instant. When you are dealing pierce damage + with the high speed bonus the regular thrust damage of the weapon is less relevant. The glance mechanic needs to come back, because the most effective tactic against an agi build stabber as a STR character is to hug the enemy as much as you can. This technique doesn't work since stabs almost never glance.
Also again about sweetspots; any heavy weapon -stun weapon- gives you a good chance of an instant hit, since most of them have enormous hitbox, a lot bigger than their shape, you can just spam easily. Stun recover time is irrelevant, it's the animation that breaks it.This applies to Steel and Military picks too.
Crossbows definitely need a STR change yes, although 24 STR is making crossbowmen have weird incomplete builds and make them full time stationary instead of relocating quickly, that is actually good since crossbowmen can't kite forever anymore but now they can't flank the enemy, which is how crossbowmen should be played in my opinion. I am sure a balance to that will be figured out.

These are my thoughts, my experiences. And again nice work, but I wish the heads up was earlier than that.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: matt2507 on March 22, 2016, 05:56:15 pm
lmao, yeah ok he didn't blackmail you he just said he would stop playing and not do whatever it was he was doing if you didn't implement his "suggestions" aka godawful shit that only a delusional ranged-only player with absolutely no grasp on basic game mechanics might think were ok. it doesnt matter how much he contributed, if his suggestions were bad they should have been ignored. i don't know what raylin did in terms of items, exactly, but i'm willing to bet theres someone else out there who can retexture rus scale models from 5 years ago. honestly if i were in charge i would have just banned him the instant he started threatening to leave if his suggestions were ignored. like really, read this sentence back to yourself: "announced that he will take matters into his own hands and think about playing significantly less if the community were to reject his changes" why did you listen to this ape?

also re turnrate nerf, i dare you to find a post from a top 10% melee player supporting it, the only people who ever thought it was a good idea were the trashcans that lost duels with jumping pikemen

badplayer is responsible for a lot of good balance changes, and he repeatedly called for nerfs to heavy cav even when he was crutching heavy cav on battle for months on end

What Rico didn't have really understand is that I have planned to play less, whenever if the changes was made or not, accepted or not. It have never been a condition to make my work accepted. I have asked to both Rico and Dupre before doing anything and I got the authorization. That's all.

My changes was bad because I was unable to finish them because of the broken updater. If everything was working well, all would have be done in two weeks. Unfortunately, it was not the case.

Now, think what you want but if you think again that I have to cry and blackmail like a 5 years old baby to have the ability to make something for this mod (where I spend my time since almost two years now), sorry but with all my respect: Fuck off  :wink:
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 22, 2016, 06:04:54 pm
Great work guys.

Reverting weapon hitboxes to old times is a good idea and I don't see "bouncing off armor" as a negative effect, its a part of the game mechanic.And since all the armors are going to get higher STR requirements, that perk is necessary for STR people, since they can't move around a lot. In the current state of cRPG, a Katana guy with 12 STR can easily win against a STR build guy, because the damage is insane and the glancing from armor is not happening at all.Also my experience against stabs; I think they are ridiculously fast. Stab weapons are fast and small already, the animation makes it instant. When you are dealing pierce damage + with the high speed bonus the regular thrust damage of the weapon is less relevant. The glance mechanic needs to come back, because the most effective tactic against an agi build stabber as a STR character is to hug the enemy as much as you can. This technique doesn't work since stabs almost never glance.
Also again about sweetspots; any heavy weapon -stun weapon- gives you a good chance of an instant hit, since most of them have enormous hitbox, a lot bigger than their shape, you can just spam easily. Stun recover time is irrelevant, it's the animation that breaks it.This applies to Steel and Military picks too.
Crossbows definitely need a STR change yes, although 24 STR is making crossbowmen have weird incomplete builds and make them full time stationary instead of relocating quickly, that is actually good since crossbowmen can't kite forever anymore but now they can't flank the enemy, which is how crossbowmen should be played in my opinion. I am sure a balance to that will be figured out.

These are my thoughts, my experiences. And again nice work, but I wish the heads up was earlier than that.

Actually hitbox of all weapons is straight shaft that is centred in hand.

What Rico didn't have really understand is that I have planned to play less, whenever if the changes was made or not, accepted or not. It have never been a condition to make my work accepted. I have asked to both Rico and Dupre before doing anything and I got the authorization. That's all.

My changes was bad because I was unable to finish them because of the broken updater. If everything was working well, all would have be done in two weeks. Unfortunately, it was not the case.

Now, think what you want but if you think again that I have to cry and blackmail like a 5 years old baby to have the ability to make something for this mod (where I spend my time since almost two years now), sorry but with all my respect: Fuck off  :wink:

I understand your position but you have to admit that current balance of ranged is broken.


Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Mr.K. on March 22, 2016, 06:07:35 pm
Just reverting archery won't fix the problem in any way. They were already overpowered and easy to play before the patch and the huge damage against cavalry is a problem that needs to be solved. We need to move from the Tydeus -era "everything should beat everything" balancing to a more "rock-paper-scissors" approach that would make every class strong but have their weaknesses. Not sure how to implement this, but buffing heavy cavalry against ranged would be a big start and making throwers a more cavalry killing force like it used to be with one-hitting jarids before the speedbonus was nerfed couple of years ago...
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Bariz on March 22, 2016, 06:09:25 pm
Thank you for the detailed post. The idea of reverting archery is great and I'm looking forward to it.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Nehvar on March 22, 2016, 06:13:33 pm
I am a great turnrate nerf hater, but won't do anything before reaching a consensus. The topic is on the table though.

Holy shit, a glimmer of hope. 

I think I may have been in favor of the turn-rate nerf at one point due to all the helicopter long spears about but that didn't turn out as expected.  Never could get used to the post-nerf turning.  Really glad to hear that the topic of reversal is on the table.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: rufio on March 22, 2016, 06:41:42 pm
FUCK YEAH ON THAT FUCKIN RANGED OP SHIT BEING REVERTED
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Yeldur on March 22, 2016, 06:51:44 pm
I'm happy to hear this, I loved the way old Xbows worked and although the effort was made, it did destroy Xbows by keeping this patch, Raylin's work was well aimed but a bit misdirected in terms of actual balance, I could see the direction he was heading and some features were pretty damn good, but some features did destroy a class and others made classes ridiculously broken (ARHCUR OP111111)!!)!)!)!

Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: DKNhz on March 23, 2016, 11:21:24 am
Why don't you item balancers just play as an archer for a week or so, then you'll have a better understanding about all the comments which comes from other archers.

I always QQ when someone rekt the old way and the new patch comes alive to nerf the archers. But then i get used to it. The problem is, those patches against the ranged never ending so we have to adapt continuously. Which is shit. Getting killed by an archer may cause you to QQ, but being an archer is not that easy as you think. Players are not standing still training dummies, you need to calculate distance deviation, predict player movements and keep your surroundings checked in a second to keep your accuracy unbroken.

Missile speed is high, i agree with that. But the damage is not. I'm a 24/21, and that build is the most common. You need to put at least 5 arrows to someone's chest in order to get a kill with %80 chance, and most of the time one headshot isn't enough for a kill. Probably you're getting last hitted by an archer, or running around with your %25hp and QQ'ing when an arrow cause your dead.

As a one who chooses the peasant life very long time ago, i know how getting 1 hit feels. And you are not suffering from that, stop acting like one.

Anyway, the only problem is the missile speed, which makes things easier than before. Just rework it to a reasonable amount. But as i said before, do that while spending some time in archery for better understanding. I only play as an archer when i got bored from melee. But i do that like for 5 years, so i know what archery is, even if i'm not the 365/24/7 one.

I'm OK with any outcome, just make it stable this time please. Ranged patch/month is shit.

For the melee part, i couldn't agree more. DO EET. My only feedback is for one handed. I remember the times when one handed weapons was useless toy weapons. I don't think you mean that by reverting, but don't revert to that please. Keep the balance between one handed and other classes, somehow.

QGT
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: matt2507 on March 23, 2016, 12:26:17 pm
I understand your position but you have to admit that current balance of ranged is broken.

I have never say the opposite. Actually, archery is not in it's final state. A patch was planned a month ago (missile speed reduction, dmg adjustments, overpowered tournament bow fixed, etc..) but he was never applied because of the updater troubles. What I mean is that the archery should have been fixed since one month but instead you get stuck on a broken archery during one month.

The actual archery state should have been for one week MAXIMUM. It was never intended to stay for one month or more.


Why don't you item balancers just play as an archer for a week or so, then you'll have a better understanding about all the comments which comes from other archers.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: rufio on March 23, 2016, 01:00:06 pm
(click to show/hide)
just forget this, and remove ranged stagger, thx
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Yeldur on March 23, 2016, 01:21:32 pm
I feel as if these would change little, at least some of them.

1. Strength is definitely the stronger attribute already, im sure most people base their builds off str just like me. Ive been a hardcore agility player for the entire mod up to like 2014/early 15, and i will probably not go back since agility builds now are basically "fun" builds, not necessarily good builds. Armor crutching being a huge part of the game now isnt based on it being accessible, its that its so fucking good. With a str build, some ironflesh and a loomed heavy armor you can take a ton of hits unless you get unlucky. Basically everyone is running around in heavy/plate armor these days, and quick pickoffs just arent a thing, if you are equal in numbers, but enemies have more armor, they probably push through because they simply tank spam and deal more damage, its hard to deal with. I'd suggest an overall melee damage increase, i think it could be fun to have some punishing hits, kind of like the old days before armor soak system was changed. Maybe it wont be as fun in the long run, dying super quickly might be annoying, but then again you would also kill most people quickly.

2. I active block, i dont expect block, if anything thats what i would assume new players do, panic block one direction after theyve swung and then attempt to correct it if its wrong. I wouldnt be against some changes to the speeds of the game, but it already feels slow many times tbh.

3. Dont revert the new 1h swings, they are actually buffs to the weapon that i feel is lower tier than pole/2h. Right swing isnt like a left swing, it has some potential for early hits but its definitely used for range mainly. Very good swing, i absolutely loved the update that added it. The stab is pretty damn good too, and it should be! The previous one was, afaik, clunky, short and just not that good. Id rather have a good stab than a bad one. Do not revert pls, 1h needs their animations, theyre already behind on damage.

If you want more glancing and more high power hits, then you need to change the armor soak values that were fiddled with way back when. But, as i remember, the change was needed and made the game much more enjoyable.
I feel it kinda necessary to say this, but STR is the stronger attribute for ARCHERY. AGI is significantly stronger in terms of an actual fight due to the fact they can swing faster than the speed of sound and pick you off before you even have a chance to do anything, not to mention an agiwhore quarterstaff build, I could pick people off ONLY pressing the left click button and they couldn't do anything to stop me, literally just mashing left click and pulling into my swings and I was unstoppable in a 1/2v1 fight situation. STR is definitely strong but I think in terms of actual fighting AGI is easily the stronger attribute.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Mr.K. on March 23, 2016, 01:34:35 pm
AGI is significantly stronger in terms of an actual fight due to the fact they can swing faster than the speed of sound and pick you off before you even have a chance to do anything, not to mention an agiwhore quarterstaff build, I could pick people off ONLY pressing the left click button and they couldn't do anything to stop me, literally just mashing left click and pulling into my swings and I was unstoppable in a 1/2v1 fight situation. STR is definitely strong but I think in terms of actual fighting AGI is easily the stronger attribute.

Go to EU3 and try your "just left click" tactic against any decent player and you'll see it won't work. Most good melee players in this mod use strength heavy builds and have been using them since forever. Spamwhore, Kiddius, GTX, Atze, Varadin etc are all 24str or more afaik. As Gravoth said, agi can be more fun as it allows you to do some crazy moves, but that doesn't make it better.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rhekimos on March 23, 2016, 01:40:51 pm
24 str is the new 18 str though. The minimum requirement to be able to use all of your items.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: chesterotab on March 23, 2016, 01:50:10 pm
If there was ever a time for unlocked pre-nerf Lance angles, it's now.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Yeldur on March 23, 2016, 02:59:39 pm
Go to EU3 and try your "just left click" tactic against any decent player and you'll see it won't work. Most good melee players in this mod use strength heavy builds and have been using them since forever. Spamwhore, Kiddius, GTX, Atze, Varadin etc are all 24str or more afaik. As Gravoth said, agi can be more fun as it allows you to do some crazy moves, but that doesn't make it better.

EU3 is irrelevant, we're talking about the actual game here, not a server designed for 1v1's, in the battle server, I can VERY easily 1/2v1 a person with an agiwhore quarter staff build, I've found the most easiest way to use it is to attack twice then block, then rinse and repeat. That way you're always guaranteed to get in many more hits than they ever can. (Obviously I mix this up a little, otherwise you're too predictable.)

Either way, I still think agi is the superior attribute.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Blackbow on March 23, 2016, 03:47:19 pm
- cool we lost the most productive dev, say good bye to new items.... you could have let him finish his test with his last patch who was rdy since 4 weeks...
- cool revert patch will absolutly change nothing on archery 30 str easy mode ftw thx tydeus again for fucked archery (str = range, missile speed, damage,accuracy. agi = speed rating)
- cool the come back of op xbower buildz who will take 90% of your life in one shoot and have 12 ath and their op 1h 0slot mace who knockdown on  first hit.

edit : and forgot to say le comeback of xbow reloading at bow speed...

M O D IS LE DEAD !
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 23, 2016, 03:50:49 pm
EU3 is irrelevant, we're talking about the actual game here, not a server designed for 1v1's, in the battle server, I can VERY easily 1/2v1 a person with an agiwhore quarter staff build, I've found the most easiest way to use it is to attack twice then block, then rinse and repeat. That way you're always guaranteed to get in many more hits than they ever can. (Obviously I mix this up a little, otherwise you're too predictable.)

Either way, I still think agi is the superior attribute.

Agi has a smaller health pool, so they dont use armor as effective and they also die to ranged faster(big factor lately). One misplay punishes them far more than one from strenght, while the trade off is that they can chose their fights a bit more. But then if you are playing according to your team and have decent decision making, youll beneit far mor from playing a team based str build, rather than a solo oriented agility playstyle. Agi in teamplay works in small numbers, but not very well in big clashes. Str covers more areas of these things you want to win the rounds, and the things you need for survival.

You mention your 1v2 scenario, but as a str build you can sacrifice yourself using armor and hp to quickly take down enemies, this will snowball into you being in the 2v1 spot, or maybe even larger than that. Taking risks just aint as much of a thing with agi. This is how i see it anyways. Ive never felt as if agi made people swing super fast, not even faster than a balance build. Quarter staffs are fast by default, and the player makes them faster depending on footwork, so swing speed isnt the factor, its the footwork.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Yeldur on March 23, 2016, 04:25:24 pm
Agi has a smaller health pool, so they dont use armor as effective and they also die to ranged faster(big factor lately). One misplay punishes them far more than one from strenght, while the trade off is that they can chose their fights a bit more. But then if you are playing according to your team and have decent decision making, youll beneit far mor from playing a team based str build, rather than a solo oriented agility playstyle. Agi in teamplay works in small numbers, but not very well in big clashes. Str covers more areas of these things you want to win the rounds, and the things you need for survival.

You mention your 1v2 scenario, but as a str build you can sacrifice yourself using armor and hp to quickly take down enemies, this will snowball into you being in the 2v1 spot, or maybe even larger than that. Taking risks just aint as much of a thing with agi. This is how i see it anyways. Ive never felt as if agi made people swing super fast, not even faster than a balance build. Quarter staffs are fast by default, and the player makes them faster depending on footwork, so swing speed isnt the factor, its the footwork.

You do raise some good points, I think most people that use AGI based builds seem to get too involved in the team as opposed to using the good old Guerrilla tactics that do so well, whilst playing builds like this I do my best to find my way behind enemy lines and take out the archers before they can see me, and if they do, I run and hide for a bit. Strength can be overcome with Guerrilla tactics, that was proven clearly in Vietnam and in Afghanistan (USA vs Vietnam, Russia vs Mujahedeen) I do believe that the same sort of tactics can be applied here, albeit a rare playstyle, I've always found myself not sticking with my team, which is primarily why I die when I play STR builds, and why I get caught in 5v1's that I otherwise would be able to handle due to the massive amount of speedboost.

I do agree on the whole speed of swings element, but I do think they have an impact enough to make some weapons superior to others, the more WPF you have the more effect it has upon your speed to swing, however I've found you really need to chunk your AGI up if you want it to have a significant effect (3/41 staff wielder OP :D) the main reason I enjoy playing AGI and believe it's strong is because so long as you're good at blocking and know the distance of weapons you can really effectively deal with multiple people at once (Dodging weapon swings and hitting back before they react)

I 100% agree that AGI doesn't work out well in large clashes due to them being hectic which does lead to many people being hit because of all the chaos, right now I would say the speed of running and things similar to it are more decided on armour than a build, I've built a 27/17 quarter staff build with really light armour and been extremely tanky and fast at the same time.

To summarise, I'd say that lots of people play AGI builds but they don't do it right to the point where it actually benefits the entire team as opposed to just themselves, if more agi players focused on something that STR players have trouble taking out (Archers, because they run away and are faster than STR heavy people) then agi could easily support a team just as much as STR, if not more.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: MURDERTRON on March 23, 2016, 04:51:24 pm
The IF patch and the recent bow changes have made non-shield AGI builds worthless.  It used to be that I could speed around with a Bec and 18/30 with no IF and run down every archer I saw and murder him brutally.  Now, the same build has a much slower walking speed, not sure what was changed but it seems like both acceleration and top speed are slower.  Couple that with the fact that archers can't miss now and do insane damage and agi builds are all but useless.

TLDR: Lower the requirement for long maul back to 18.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on March 23, 2016, 05:35:38 pm
In addition Agi builds don't seem that much faster than Str builds at the moment. Playing as a ninja with 18/33 I couldn't really get away from people with much heavier builds. It wasn't like that in the level 30 days. I don't know if Athletics gets less effective the higher it gets but that's how it feels.

Might also be to do with IF reducing effective weight of armour.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Blackbow on March 23, 2016, 06:19:32 pm
The IF patch and the recent bow changes have made non-shield AGI builds worthless.  It used to be that I could speed around with a Bec and 18/30 with no IF and run down every archer I saw and murder him brutally.  Now, the same build has a much slower walking speed, not sure what was changed but it seems like both acceleration and top speed are slower.  Couple that with the fact that archers can't miss now and do insane damage and agi builds are all but useless.

TLDR: Lower the requirement for long maul back to 18.
In addition Agi builds don't seem that much faster than Str builds at the moment. Playing as a ninja with 18/33 I couldn't really get away from people with much heavier builds. It wasn't like that in the level 30 days. I don't know if Athletics gets less effective the higher it gets but that's how it feels.

Might also be to do with IF reducing effective weight of armour.

that's sad because the problem you describe here could have been fixed with the incoming patch but sadly we will never see it...

-so i hope to see the if fixed because IF allow you to wear heavy armor with barely no influence on your moving/swing speed.
my archer 18/27 build is slower than my pole 24/21

-if xbows are coming back i want to see the xbow reloading speed nerfed, the speed is rly too close of the bows...

- i want to see the animation speed of all kind of weapon adjusted because actualy animation speed of pole/2h/1h is exactly the same
what about fix those flamberge spaming at katana speed ?

everything is broken and the only guy who tried to fix it have been asked to stop ... that's a pure shame! rly!
because let's be honest there is nobody to fix crpg actualy.
and sry but rico and Elderly Woman are both xbowers and also our new items balancer and i highly doubt of their impartiality about reverting this patch

so rico and elderly woman i want to see you balance xbows not simply put them back in easy mode op style !
and i rly point at the reloading speed !!!
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 23, 2016, 06:43:53 pm
want to see the animation speed of all kind of weapon adjusted because actualy animation speed of pole/2h/1h is exactly the same
what about fix those flamberge spaming at katana speed ?


wat
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: hellou on March 23, 2016, 06:57:20 pm
Before you do something you should first set goal you want to reach!

Is it:
1. More players from native to crpg
Then you need to combine native combat with char development from chadz.
Just replace crpg combat with native = profit.

2. Realistic gameplay
Is it realistic to block with wodden axe a sword? Most people are not ready for realistic mechanics.

3. Common sense combat
Swing should be faster then turn rate, no autistic movements, no helicopters, no turn into friendly swings.
No exploit builds like I have this woode staff and I beat to death every knight in plate or throwing lances macro switch secondary attack.
--------------------------------



Imo all the change Paul/Urist did in past make people rage because f.ex. everything near you disable your swings, like Waradin wrote in another thread this mod made him aggressive person.
I think a mod should make people feel good!





Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Dupre on March 23, 2016, 07:04:18 pm
that's sad because the problem you describe here could have been fixed with the incoming patch but sadly we will never see it...

-so i hope to see the if fixed because IF allow you to wear heavy armor with barely no influence on your moving/swing speed.
my archer 18/27 build is slower than my pole 24/21

-if xbows are coming back i want to see the xbow reloading speed nerfed, the speed is rly too close of the bows...

- i want to see the animation speed of all kind of weapon adjusted because actualy animation speed of pole/2h/1h is exactly the same
what about fix those flamberge spaming at katana speed ?

everything is broken and the only guy who tried to fix it have been asked to stop ... that's a pure shame! rly!
because let's be honest there is nobody to fix crpg actualy.
and sry but rico and Elderly Woman are both xbowers and also our new items balancer and i highly doubt of their impartiality about reverting this patch

so rico and elderly woman i want to see you balance xbows not simply put them back in easy mode op style !
and i rly point at the reloading speed !!!

Raylin's patch is in now. Last patch was recently pushed through. So now you can test his changes, but still most likely going to revert.

I never asked Raylin to stop working on the mod. I kindly told him that we can't keep patching 2-3 times a week and that i'm going to give other people an opportunity. Raylin has some good ideas but his plan was poorly put together(multiple fix patches which helped with crashing the whole mod for a month) and when working on crpg, you learn to take one small step a time when making changes, if you don't, most likely crashes and bugs, but he wanted to make big changes which isn't bad but you must understand everything else that is going to come with it.  Rico and elderly came to me with  more of a solid plan for balance and patching, so I told Raylin i'm going to give Rico and Elderly a opportunity to balance, just like I did for Raylin in the past. I also told Raylin he can communicate with Rico and Elderly to still work on balancing but it has to be a team thing now and communication with the community has to also happen.

 I really appreciate all Raylin's work and i'm sure everyone in the community also really appreciates it too. Raylin is always more and welcome to come back.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gurnisson on March 23, 2016, 07:12:09 pm
wat

A scrub making excuses
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Turkhammer on March 23, 2016, 07:16:38 pm
Strength can be overcome with Guerrilla tactics, that was proven clearly in Vietnam and in Afghanistan (USA vs Vietnam,

Just to correct your analogy.  The US won every battle in Viet Nam versus the Viet Cong or NVA regulars.  The war lasted so long with no clear results and constant losses of men and money that the country and the population grew sick and tired of it and pulled out.  To have your analogy be correct Strength builds would win every round but grow tired of playing endless rounds and quit.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Blackbow on March 23, 2016, 07:58:12 pm
Raylin's patch is in now. Last patch was recently pushed through. So now you can test his changes, but still most likely going to revert.

I never asked Raylin to stop working on the mod. I kindly told him that we can't keep patching 2-3 times a week and that i'm going to give other people an opportunity. Raylin has some good ideas but his plan was poorly put together(multiple fix patches which helped with crashing the whole mod for a month) and when working on crpg, you learn to take one small step a time when making changes, if you don't, most likely crashes and bugs, but he wanted to make big changes which isn't bad but you must understand everything else that is going to come with it.  Rico and elderly came to me with  more of a solid plan for balance and patching, so I told Raylin i'm going to give Rico and Elderly a opportunity to balance, just like I did for Raylin in the past. I also told Raylin he can communicate with Rico and Elderly to still work on balancing but it has to be a team thing now and communication with the community has to also happen.

 I really appreciate all Raylin's work and i'm sure everyone in the community also really appreciates it too. Raylin is always more and welcome to come back.

So is it a revert or the last raylin patch ?
Havent pay attention to version number.
Because actualy the missile speed didnt change and we are like previous patch.


So it's about making patch who made it crash for a month ?
Any other patch will have same consequences ?

and i dont see any other way to balance the mod by doing step by step few patch, specialy without having no way to test change before.
if atleast we had a beta server or something... :'(

and honestly he had like 1 month to balance stuff, it's probably not enough time to fix all the mess in crpg.
it's not gonna work if each month we change of ppl...

dont take it bad it was my personal opinion.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Dupre on March 23, 2016, 08:02:21 pm
Raylin's patch is in now. Last patch was recently pushed through. So now you can test his changes, but still most likely going to revert.

I never asked Raylin to stop working on the mod. I kindly told him that we can't keep patching 2-3 times a week and that i'm going to give other people an opportunity. Raylin has some good ideas but his plan was poorly put together(multiple fix patches which helped with crashing the whole mod for a month) and when working on crpg, you learn to take one small step a time when making changes, if you don't, most likely crashes and bugs, but he wanted to make big changes which isn't bad but you must understand everything else that is going to come with it.  Rico and elderly came to me with  more of a solid plan for balance and patching, so I told Raylin i'm going to give Rico and Elderly a opportunity to balance, just like I did for Raylin in the past. I also told Raylin he can communicate with Rico and Elderly to still work on balancing but it has to be a team thing now and communication with the community has to also happen.

 I really appreciate all Raylin's work and i'm sure everyone in the community also really appreciates it too. Raylin is always more and welcome to come back.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Butan on March 23, 2016, 08:30:04 pm
Looking forward to all the changes announced. It's good to have people still helping cRPG.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on March 23, 2016, 09:31:07 pm
tbh I find crossbows are even more OP at this point. I can easily get headshots from across the map without even a tiny amount of effort whereas before hand it'd take me a good couple second of aiming and 3-5 shots of trying to land a body shot from the same distance. Sure my MW Arb + MW Steel Bolts wont one hit anyone even with a headshot which takes a way from that OPness a bit but still. The reload times are also just stupid, taking like 8 seconds to reload my arb when archers can easily load their bows in under 2 seconds(some in under 1). Also if you were getting smashed on by 1h xbow hybrid builds you probably werent that good at the game lmao. Also who was running builds with 12 ath as a crossbow? You'd have to be like 18/36 to run that which doesnt seem like a good build by any standard. Most were running like 24/21 AFAIK.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gmnotutoo on March 23, 2016, 11:26:35 pm
In addition Agi builds don't seem that much faster than Str builds at the moment. Playing as a ninja with 18/33 I couldn't really get away from people with much heavier builds. It wasn't like that in the level 30 days. I don't know if Athletics gets less effective the higher it gets but that's how it feels.

Might also be to do with IF reducing effective weight of armour.

Agility is balanced around s-key whores and ranged.

For the high agility builds that just want to fight and move quicker in battle it is horribly balanced. Your speed has an equal chance to work against you depending on mistakes in footwork. There is no real reward for playing high agility other than movement speed and you're right it does seem capped.

Also I really don't think there is a difference from having 200 wpf vs 150 of the same wpf. The few points of damage are not worth it when you can perform the same with a minimum wpf and get more power-strike which increases the damage a lot more.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Turkhammer on March 23, 2016, 11:34:49 pm
tbh I find crossbows are even more OP at this point. I can easily get headshots from across the map without even a tiny amount of effort whereas before hand it'd take me a good couple second of aiming and 3-5 shots of trying to land a body shot from the same distance. Sure my MW Arb + MW Steel Bolts wont one hit anyone even with a headshot which takes a way from that OPness a bit but still. The reload times are also just stupid, taking like 8 seconds to reload my arb when archers can easily load their bows in under 2 seconds(some in under 1). Also if you were getting smashed on by 1h xbow hybrid builds you probably werent that good at the game lmao. Also who was running builds with 12 ath as a crossbow? You'd have to be like 18/36 to run that which doesnt seem like a good build by any standard. Most were running like 24/21 AFAIK.

I don't find this at all.  At least with the hunting xbow, I find it very hard to even get a hit.  TBH bows should fire 3x faster than xbows.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Kadeth on March 23, 2016, 11:50:05 pm
My two cents, regarding melee:

1h is fine as it is. The change to the right swing in particular was a good buff; that animation is so much more useful now, where as the old right swing was just an s-key swing. Reverting the 1h buffs will make the class even less appealing in comparison to 2h and polearm. The balance between 1h, polearm and 2h is decent at the moment, no need for more nerfs.

I'm not seeing any of these instant hits you're talking about either. Good players move into their swings and know how to hit as early as possible. Left swing while aiming low is fast to connect, but you can always see the animation starting and have time to put the block up. When I miss a block, It's my own fault (apart from when playing on NA with 200 ping :P), not something that can be blamed on game mechanics. This is a skill based game, some people react faster than others, some people take years to reach their skill cap, others reach it in months. Unfortunately a lot of people prefer to blame game mechanics, server lag, or whatever, instead of being patient and spending hundreds of hours becoming familiar with the animations like all the top tier players have.

We should all know by now that there are no new players, so making balance changes because of the steep learning curve for new players doesn't make any sense. It's too hard to get new people interested in a mod for a 6 year old game with terrible graphics. But removing the turn rate nerf (among other things) might get some old players back.

TLDR: Rewarding, skill based combat is why people still play this 6 year old game despite some of its flaws; don't make things easier for all the people complaining on the forums, because they'll start complaining about the next thing that kills them, as we have seen so many times before.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: matt2507 on March 23, 2016, 11:59:57 pm
Raylin's patch is in now. Last patch was recently pushed through. So now you can test his changes, but still most likely going to revert.

No it's not, still the old value.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Shik on March 24, 2016, 12:22:18 am
actually I was already part of the team some years ago when Shik was in charge and i'm the reason for amongst other things- 3slot long spears/pikes, riding requirement increases on heavy horses, the changes to kicks and bump damage being considerably lower.
this is true, imisshotmail's feedback as well as the feedback of other skilled players was invaluable for balance in the past. I as well as Tydeus have both agreed in the past that they are deserving of the position of item balancer, or at the very least of having their opinion taken seriously.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Nightingale on March 24, 2016, 12:47:20 am
this is true, imisshotmail's feedback as well as the feedback of other skilled players was invaluable for balance in the past. I as well as Tydeus have both agreed in the past that they are deserving of the position of item balancer, or at the very least of having their opinion taken seriously.

Nice to see you shik, even though you were drug back by imisshotmail to attempt to validate his opinion as some kind of favor to him. I will continue to ignore him, till he can, at the very least express his opinion in a non-elitest manner with no validation other than a K/d of 6.2 on a screenshot and some vague balance adjustments one including the death of heavy cavalry for awhile.

I honestly don't know what he thought bringing you to this thread would actually do for him? You haven't been heard from in (a) year(s)? Tbvh him bringing you here has only made me wish to overlook his posts even more.

Either way nice to hear from you Shik; see you next time you decide to post as a favor to one of your buddies.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 24, 2016, 12:54:29 am
Nice to see you shik, even though you were drug back by imisshotmail to attempt to validate his opinion as some kind of favor to him. I will continue to ignore him, till he can, at the very least express his opinion in a non-elitest manner with no validation other than a K/d of 6.2 on a screenshot and some vague balance adjustments one including the death of heavy cavalry for awhile.

I honestly don't know what he thought bringing you to this thread would actually do for him? You haven't been heard from in (a) year(s)? Tbvh him bringing you here has only made me wish to overlook his posts even more.

Either way nice to hear from you Shik; see you next time you decide to post as a favor to one of your buddies.

First of all I showed Shik the OP of this thread to show him how terrible cRPG balancing has got since he has been gone, and he read it and posted that.

Second of all 'the death of heavy cavalry'?, you mean the balancing of the most overpowered class in the game since forever and still is? It was and is always the strongest class and every good player who I respect knows this, the changes to the class just tried to add some semblance of fairness to a fairly ridiculous concept for a class in a multiplayer game.

I have posted purely objective balancing in the past but people read it, don't agree with the statements and then post their own blatantly wrong opinions in reply at an attempt to prove me wrong, when their opinions are based off the fact that they are not good at the game, which as much as I joke about is fine but doesn't mean they should have any say in balance. Why should I not flaunt the fact that i'm better than anyone else posting about balance in this thread when it's the only indicator of skill that I can quickly use to show people that my opinions have some basis in reality. Do you want me to get in every single good player to come and tell you that you're wrong and i'm right, or is that more cause to ignore an objectively right opinion because your own lack of skill inhibits your understanding of it?
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 24, 2016, 01:00:58 am
You can dislike me as a person all you want but the facts are that I have more experience as a skilled player than anybody disagreeing with me, more experience as an item balancer than even the ones who are currently doing it, more experience at being objective and not blatantly supporting my own class by the fact that I always have called for nerfs to Cavalry which is the class I mostly play because I believe it to be overpowered.

You can believe what you want and let this game get worse, or actually listen to the opinions of someone who is objectively right.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 24, 2016, 01:38:17 am
(click to show/hide)

Rough approach, but i agree with this guy. Especially on the heavy cav part.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Butan on March 24, 2016, 02:00:25 am
Even ignoring your abraviseness and analyzing your point of views, you seem like someone who does not understand the concept of "point of view".
Game balancing isnt maths, and being extremely skilled does not mean being right about how the game should function, only gives you a good grasp about how it could this way or the other.
Your concept of the game differs of those who are currently in charge, of which you are no longer, you can only try to influence them by communicating with them as every other player out there, and your current approach will give you 0 chance at that, this is plain as fucking day.

I dont see why you keep posting except to stroke your own ego which seems in need of being adjusted.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 24, 2016, 02:09:39 am
Even ignoring your abraviseness and analyzing your point of views, you seem like someone who does not understand the concept of "point of view".
Game balancing isnt maths, and being extremely skilled does not mean being right about how the game should function, only gives you a good grasp about how it could this way or the other.
Your concept of the game differs of those who are currently in charge, of which you are no longer, you can only try to influence them by communicating with them as every other player out there, and your current approach will give you 0 chance at that, this is plain as fucking day.

I dont see why you keep posting except to stroke your own ego which seems in need of being adjusted.

Multiplayer game balance is about balancing around the highest tiers of play for the highest skilled players. Any other type fails if you want a competitive balanced game as has been proven many times over. You do not have to be one of best players to be able to objectively balance around them but it's painfully obvious that no one in this community is able to do that, and it is no coincidence that the majority of good players have similar opinions, which sometimes vastly different than those of the rest of the player base. I'm not going to suck up to people who are wrong just because they're in some arbitrary position of power in an online game and anyone who does that is a very sad person. If people want to ruin the game to satisfy their own ego about being unable to accept they're wrong that's fine by me.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: imisshotmail on March 24, 2016, 02:18:01 am
I respect the opinions of other players when they can put down their thoughts on why something should be changed in a way that truly makes sense instead of what most players do, being a high skill player adds more credibility to those opinions but it isn't the be and end all. Almost all the people that I see here make posts that make no sense, while also not being a skilled player. For all the talk of me just giving my point of view I gave a real (if short) description earlier in the thread about why reducing accuracy for ranged as opposed to damage is bad for balance, and I don't think anybody can disagree with that if they're being honest.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Jarold on March 24, 2016, 02:33:15 am
I've never felt like I've been hit too early during an animation, but after the patch i'm constantly getting hit before the animation even nears me! wtf.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Nightingale on March 24, 2016, 03:25:45 am
I've never felt like I've been hit too early during an animation, but after the patch i'm constantly getting hit before the animation even nears me! wtf.

but... we haven't changed anything yet.  :?:
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: a_bear_irl on March 24, 2016, 05:22:57 am
Even ignoring your abraviseness and analyzing your point of views, you seem like someone who does not understand the concept of "point of view".
Game balancing isnt maths, and being extremely skilled does not mean being right about how the game should function, only gives you a good grasp about how it could this way or the other.
Your concept of the game differs of those who are currently in charge, of which you are no longer, you can only try to influence them by communicating with them as every other player out there, and your current approach will give you 0 chance at that, this is plain as fucking day.

I dont see why you keep posting except to stroke your own ego which seems in need of being adjusted.

are starcraft 2, league of legends, dota etc balanced around mid-level pubs or are they balanced around the competitive scene/top 1% pubs?
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: McKli_PL on March 24, 2016, 08:29:10 am
My two cents, regarding melee:

1h is fine as it is. The change to the right swing in particular was a good buff; that animation is so much more useful now, where as the old right swing was just an s-key swing. Reverting the 1h buffs will make the class even less appealing in comparison to 2h and polearm. The balance between 1h, polearm and 2h is decent at the moment, no need for more nerfs.

I'm not seeing any of these instant hits you're talking about either. Good players move into their swings and know how to hit as early as possible. Left swing while aiming low is fast to connect, but you can always see the animation starting and have time to put the block up. When I miss a block, It's my own fault (apart from when playing on NA with 200 ping :P), not something that can be blamed on game mechanics. This is a skill based game, some people react faster than others, some people take years to reach their skill cap, others reach it in months. Unfortunately a lot of people prefer to blame game mechanics, server lag, or whatever, instead of being patient and spending hundreds of hours becoming familiar with the animations like all the top tier players have.

We should all know by now that there are no new players, so making balance changes because of the steep learning curve for new players doesn't make any sense. It's too hard to get new people interested in a mod for a 6 year old game with terrible graphics. But removing the turn rate nerf (among other things) might get some old players back.

TLDR: Rewarding, skill based combat is why people still play this 6 year old game despite some of its flaws; don't make things easier for all the people complaining on the forums, because they'll start complaining about the next thing that kills them, as we have seen so many times before.
+1000000000000000

and

Multiplayer game balance is about balancing around the highest tiers of play for the highest skilled players. Any other type fails if you want a competitive balanced game as has been proven many times over. You do not have to be one of best players to be able to objectively balance around them but it's painfully obvious that no one in this community is able to do that, and it is no coincidence that the majority of good players have similar opinions, which sometimes vastly different than those of the rest of the player base. I'm not going to suck up to people who are wrong just because they're in some arbitrary position of power in an online game and anyone who does that is a very sad person. If people want to ruin the game to satisfy their own ego about being unable to accept they're wrong that's fine by me.
+10000000000000000 wow voice of reason on crpg forum, but why let's go with 'qq qq nerf them buff me!' :wink: :mrgreen: :D
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: MURDERTRON on March 24, 2016, 08:35:27 am
Remove nudge, and roll.  Unless you can find a good way to slow down and reduce roll distance as well as get rid of the invincibility frames.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gurgumul on March 24, 2016, 10:42:51 am
Remove nudge
no
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on March 24, 2016, 11:57:13 am
Agility is balanced around s-key whores and ranged.

For the high agility builds that just want to fight and move quicker in battle it is horribly balanced. Your speed has an equal chance to work against you depending on mistakes in footwork. There is no real reward for playing high agility other than movement speed and you're right it does seem capped.

Also I really don't think there is a difference from having 200 wpf vs 150 of the same wpf. The few points of damage are not worth it when you can perform the same with a minimum wpf and get more power-strike which increases the damage a lot more.

Very this.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Butan on March 24, 2016, 01:02:43 pm
Multiplayer game balance is about balancing around the highest tiers of play for the highest skilled players.

are starcraft 2, league of legends, dota etc balanced around mid-level pubs or are they balanced around the competitive scene/top 1% pubs?

cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now. Everyone who posts here have a right to say what they think, its all valid points as long as its argued, because its backed by years of playing the game. Your opinion is not superior to others.

Even if you were right about you and those who coincidentally share your views; you are one of the top player of cRPG. How did you find this result? There is no ranking system and the mod is full of players who dont try too hard anymore, you only go by overly boasting here, and as I said it will not give you a shot at changing where the game is going, it destroy your credibility for those who are not in agreement with you.
If you want we can duel and the one who wins gets to have his opinion made valid?  :lol:


Despite the fact that the playerbase of our mod is very profficient at it, there is no clear common opinion about how the game should be, can you tell me why?
I believe it is because you are only pushing one point of view, among a hundred others who all have valid points and can be argued, just like I said... So if you could remove the arrogant foolishness parts of your posts, it would tremendously help pushing what you believe in. That or keep stroking that ego until it shines.


That said, I agree about the ranged part of your argument, just in case you think I disagree with you just because you're a jerk.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: bagge on March 24, 2016, 02:29:05 pm
cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now.

Pls...

Soo Rus Bow will be back to normal? Plez
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gafferjack on March 24, 2016, 02:36:32 pm
I don't play this mod (much, at all, anymore, etc), but the fact that you brushed off arguments with carefully manipulated examples bugs the fucking shit out of me.

Compensating for wide crosshairs requires skill; shooting with pinpoint accurate ranged weapons does not. Landing a headshot into a 20 pixel head is harder with a 30 pixel crosshair than with a 1 pixel crosshair, and it doesn't come down to luck. If you center your 30 pixels into the 20 pixels, chances are you'll hit. If you aim at the top left edge of the earlobe with your 1 pixel, you'll still hit although you technically didn't aim at the center of the head.

First off, the bolded part is horseshit. I don't even know how you can have this viewpoint.

In your example, aiming at the center of the head lets you hit 100% with a pinpoint crosshair and ~66% with the wider crosshair. Aiming at the top left edge of the earlobe with a wide crosshair only gives you increased chance to miss because you didn't aim at the center of the head. Additionally, aiming at 1 pixel to the side of the head misses with a pinpoint crosshair, yet you still have a chance to hit the head with a wider crosshair.

(click to show/hide)

Consequently, the pinpoint accurate system promotes careless shooting into the general direction of the head, whereas the system involving randomness requires special care to center the wide crosshair over an equally-sized area. The prior needs less skill, the latter needs more.

Increase the jittery player's inaccuracy by 1 pixel, or slightly reduce the size of the head and he misses with the pinpoint crosshair every time.

Here is a mastercraft picture illustrating my point. (http://i.imgur.com/Nx407dv.png for people who don't want to log into this horrible forum)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


The white dot represents a pinpoint crosshair, enlarged for viewing purposes. The red circle represents a wider crosshair approximately the size of the head.

In the image, the pinpoint crosshair misses, while the wider crosshair has a decent chance of hitting the head. If the wider crosshair user hits the head, he wasn't more skilled than the pinpoint crosshair user, he just got lucky. The random inaccuracy caused him to hit, not his skill.

It's true that there are times when you can hit with a pinpoint crosshair and miss with a wider one. However, the only reason you missed is because of the random inaccuracy that is inherent in the wider crosshair; random inaccuracy that can equally cause a hit on a missed pinpoint shot. You're rewarded for being inaccurate compared to the pinpoint crosshair. This is less skill-based. Just because you're inherently penalized for shooting doesn't mean you're more skilled.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: a_bear_irl on March 24, 2016, 02:50:18 pm
cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now. Everyone who posts here have a right to say what they think, its all valid points as long as its argued, because its backed by years of playing the game. Your opinion is not superior to others.

Even if you were right about you and those who coincidentally share your views; you are one of the top player of cRPG. How did you find this result? There is no ranking system and the mod is full of players who dont try too hard anymore, you only go by overly boasting here, and as I said it will not give you a shot at changing where the game is going, it destroy your credibility for those who are not in agreement with you.
If you want we can duel and the one who wins gets to have his opinion made valid?  :lol:


Despite the fact that the playerbase of our mod is very profficient at it, there is no clear common opinion about how the game should be, can you tell me why?
I believe it is because you are only pushing one point of view, among a hundred others who all have valid points and can be argued, just like I said... So if you could remove the arrogant foolishness parts of your posts, it would tremendously help pushing what you believe in. That or keep stroking that ego until it shines.


That said, I agree about the ranged part of your argument, just in case you think I disagree with you just because you're a jerk.

obviously i'm his friend but badplayer is the 2nd best cav to play the game (after rohypnol), has been for years a Noted pubstomper, and through some tremendous feats of autism (back when duel points were for all duels) got to #1 EU duel and top 10 NA at the same time. even now after some years mostly away from the game he's still usually near the top of the scoreboard on battle and in strat when there's cav gear for him to crutch on. you can definitely call him a shitposter or a sperg but his ego exists because he's better at the game than almost everyone.

almost all the "top tier" players have the same opinions on stuff anyway, though there is some class based bias to be fair.

the turn nerf is a good example of what happens when middle of the road players are used to make balance decisions, literally no top 10% player though it was a good idea but cmp and paul completely ignored them because they were bottom of the scoreboard trashcans who kept losing 1v1s to people with pikes and decided that wasn't right, and nevermind that it fucked melee up big time.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on March 24, 2016, 04:51:51 pm
So what was reverted? Because light and hunting xbow still take forever to reload or was that day off from game and forums not the revertion patch?
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Shemaforash on March 24, 2016, 05:04:00 pm
You can dislike me as a person all you want but the facts are that I have more experience as a skilled player than anybody disagreeing with me, more experience as an item balancer than even the ones who are currently doing it, more experience at being objective and not blatantly supporting my own class by the fact that I always have called for nerfs to Cavalry which is the class I mostly play because I believe it to be overpowered.

You can believe what you want and let this game get worse, or actually listen to the opinions of someone who is objectively right.

crpg pubstars are pretty funny actually
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 24, 2016, 07:19:23 pm
Buff shields

edit: I am constantly holding up my shield, 5 shield skill, and often i still get shit around it when im pointing it in the general direction towards ranged. Shouldnt happen imho.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: SayAttack on March 25, 2016, 12:18:18 am
Quote
cRPG playerbase is 90% highly skilled players by now. Everyone who posts here have a right to say what they think, its all valid points as long as its argued, because its backed by years of playing the game. Your opinion is not superior to others.

^^
i just remember i asked tydeus "How do you decide what changes would be helpful?" ) strange thing, but ppl who are realy good, who obviously understand how it works,  rarely post smt .
on the other hand, evry fukin nub is committed to spam his useless opinion( like me, for example))
anyway  Credo quia absurdum . who, if not na?)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rhekimos on March 25, 2016, 12:40:48 am
I am constantly holding up my shield, 5 shield skill, and often i still get shit around it when im pointing it in the general direction towards ranged. Shouldnt happen imho.

Which shield?
While we wait for a patch, you should try a round one. They have been the only ones offering decent protection from ranged. When anything non-round leaves your sides wide open, even to just slightly off your center line.

So what was reverted? Because light and hunting xbow still take forever to reload or was that day off from game and forums not the revertion patch?

That was just the web server being down. The game actually worked, with the exception of Strategus.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2016, 01:01:04 am
Which shield?
While we wait for a patch, you should try a round one. They have been the only ones offering decent protection from ranged. When anything non-round leaves your sides wide open, even to just slightly off your center line.

Round shield, it does have good coverage but i think shields in general should just be basically a huge forcefield against arrows from the front.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on March 25, 2016, 09:36:09 am
It's true that there are times when you can hit with a pinpoint crosshair and miss with a wider one. However, the only reason you missed is because of the random inaccuracy that is inherent in the wider crosshair; random inaccuracy that can equally cause a hit on a missed pinpoint shot. You're rewarded for being inaccurate compared to the pinpoint crosshair. This is less skill-based. Just because you're inherently penalized for shooting doesn't mean you're more skilled.
There are situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair.
There are also situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a pinpoint accurate crosshair.
Rng does both of that.

Rng implies you need to reposition once in a while to increase the expected efficiency of your shots. I don't see how that's bad. More skirmishing, less camping also leads to more hybridization, higher chances for melee to kill ranged, and less delaying.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2016, 10:45:01 am
There are situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair.
There are also situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a pinpoint accurate crosshair.
Rng does both of that.

Rng implies you need to reposition once in a while to increase the expected efficiency of your shots. I don't see how that's bad. More skirmishing, less camping also leads to more hybridization, higher chances for melee to kill ranged, and less delaying.

How are you rewarded for being inaccurate with pinpoint? You arent inaccurate if you hit, theres no rng there. Its the opposite of inaccuracy.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gafferjack on March 25, 2016, 11:06:09 am
There are situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair.
There are also situations where you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a pinpoint accurate crosshair.

The head does not consist only of its center. The center of the head is the bullseye. If you hit the side of the head, you still hit the target. The reason you're rewarded for being inaccurate with a wider crosshair is because you would have otherwise missed the target. The only reason you hit the target is because of a random element that was outside of your control.

I'm not arguing for or against RNG either way. RNG is simply inherently less skill-based because you have less control over whatever action RNG is involved in. This doesn't mean that you don't need a high level of skill in order to compensate for random deviation, but to say that it takes no skill to use something pinpoint accurate that is otherwise identical in this context is misguided.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Yeldur on March 25, 2016, 02:24:12 pm
Just to correct your analogy.  The US won every battle in Viet Nam versus the Viet Cong or NVA regulars.  The war lasted so long with no clear results and constant losses of men and money that the country and the population grew sick and tired of it and pulled out.  To have your analogy be correct Strength builds would win every round but grow tired of playing endless rounds and quit.
(Apologies with my analogy, I'm aware that the US won all actual battles in Vietnam but my point was that they used Guerrilla tactics to wear them down to a point where they were getting absolutely ruined by them.)

You forget that your point brings along with it the implication that every person on the other team is playing an AGIwhore when teams will be much more balanced out, I mean a couple of AGIwhores would perform Guerrilla like tactics to split numbers and break them apart whilst your main force decimates the people (Now between a boulder and an annoying cunt AGIwhore)

Would you not agree that if a few AGIwhores snuck around back and took on the archers whilst your main force fought against their main force that would give you a significant advantage? I believe it would.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2016, 02:40:19 pm
Would you not agree that if a few AGIwhores snuck around back and took on the archers whilst your main force fought against their main force that would give you a significant advantage? I believe it would.

It definitely would! Too bad that it doesnt work, first of all its basically a suicide mission, and if it succeeds you at best get 2 archers out of it, who are probably not even aware so they are the worse part of the archer squad. Archers are just too aware, cav might take them out occassionally though, much more effectively than agi builds.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gurgumul on March 25, 2016, 02:55:33 pm
What do you people think of cavalry as the main force of a team? Imagine a team consisting of ~70% cavalry, ~20% archers, and some infantry with polearms to defend the archers. It just seems like cavalry is (not in-game, but in general) better in almost every aspect than infantry when it comes to battles in open areas. The only thing infantry is good for are sieges, because you can't climb a ladder with a horse. If I were a medieval warrior, I'd rather be on a horse than on foot, if I could afford it.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: MURDERTRON on March 25, 2016, 03:02:15 pm
(Apologies with my analogy, I'm aware that the US won all actual battles in Vietnam but my point was that they used Guerrilla tactics to wear them down to a point where they were getting absolutely ruined by them.)

You forget that your point brings along with it the implication that every person on the other team is playing an AGIwhore when teams will be much more balanced out, I mean a couple of AGIwhores would perform Guerrilla like tactics to split numbers and break them apart whilst your main force decimates the people (Now between a boulder and an annoying cunt AGIwhore)

Would you not agree that if a few AGIwhores snuck around back and took on the archers whilst your main force fought against their main force that would give you a significant advantage? I believe it would.

I think you're assuming that this game had good or balanced maps.  Instead, the ranged will all sit on top of a steep hill and fire down continuously on infantry as they slowly walk up the hill.  And your agi won't make you any faster going up the hill, but now you've sacrificed all that HP and armor.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on March 25, 2016, 04:44:28 pm

That was just the web server being down. The game actually worked, with the exception of Strategus.
Sry but the game didn't work for me, the launcher would time out then it tried a proxy and came back with failure to find anything. I tried all night but was stuck playing native.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: MURDERTRON on March 25, 2016, 04:51:43 pm
Sry but the game didn't work for me, the launcher would time out then it tried a proxy and came back with failure to find anything. I tried all night but was stuck playing native.

Click "offline" then play (online).
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on March 25, 2016, 06:22:08 pm
Click "offline" then play (online).
now you tell me, thanks alot  :P
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2016, 06:51:55 pm
What do you people think of cavalry as the main force of a team? Imagine a team consisting of ~70% cavalry, ~20% archers, and some infantry with polearms to defend the archers. It just seems like cavalry is (not in-game, but in general) better in almost every aspect than infantry when it comes to battles in open areas. The only thing infantry is good for are sieges, because you can't climb a ladder with a horse. If I were a medieval warrior, I'd rather be on a horse than on foot, if I could afford it.

Theres a point where the enemies are completely forced to adapt because cav is simply too strong, but when enemies are forced to unite they generally win, depending on how the cav plays. This at least happened when we did a plated charger themenight, basically unstoppable untill they started corner camping with pikes and stakes. Though if we didnt just suicide charge for fun we couldve probably won through stalling untill flags.

Cav has a sweet spot at like 30-40% of the team, insanely powerful.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gurgumul on March 25, 2016, 07:30:18 pm
insanely powerful.
You mean good at backstabbing out of nowhere?
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 25, 2016, 07:35:57 pm
You mean good at backstabbing out of nowhere?

Not really, just brute forcing with bumps, constant bumpdowns untill dead by some swings, just smashing through infantry, lone people have basically no chance and will die.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on March 25, 2016, 11:47:19 pm
Not really, just brute forcing with bumps, constant bumpdowns untill dead by some swings, just smashing through infantry, lone people have basically no chance and will die.
This is only true if theres a pack of them otherwise cav is easy to counter if theres only 1 or 2.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 26, 2016, 01:24:58 am
This is only true if theres a pack of them otherwise cav is easy to counter if theres only 1 or 2.

Well the playstyle of cav changes varying on the numbers they have, if they are fewer then they will do the backstabbing and stealthy playstyle. But we were discussing cav in large quantities, completely off topic anyways.

Did i mention buff shields?

And also polearm leftswing is the worst swing in the game currently, absolutely horrible. With both 1h and 2h i feel both swings have very usefull properties, but polearm leftswing i avoid like the plague. If im in a 2v1 with a teammate on my right stopping me from rightswinging then i often prefer running than leftswinging. The only time i use left swing is by accident. Its short, its slow, it has bad sweet spots, it glances and its from my experience bad at hiltslashing with. It has no redeeming factors.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Shemaforash on March 26, 2016, 02:21:39 am
Cavalry in cRPG is only strong in numbers, individually they are a weak class on par with archers.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Jona on March 26, 2016, 05:13:07 am
And also polearm leftswing is the worst swing in the game currently, absolutely horrible. With both 1h and 2h i feel both swings have very usefull properties, but polearm leftswing i avoid like the plague. If im in a 2v1 with a teammate on my right stopping me from rightswinging then i often prefer running than leftswinging. The only time i use left swing is by accident. Its short, its slow, it has bad sweet spots, it glances and its from my experience bad at hiltslashing with. It has no redeeming factors.

How to defeat a polearmer in just 1 easy step:

1) Stand just a little bit behind him and to his right.


It's really annoying how horrible polearms are in teamfights if your teammates are too retarded to know how to properly let you support/support you. Since your rightswing, overhead, and stab all start on the right side of your body, all you can do is use the shorter-than-1h-leftswing leftswing if you have a friendly nearby to your right.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Jambi on March 26, 2016, 07:00:15 am
Cavalry in cRPG is only strong in numbers, individually they are a weak class on par with archers.

Very true, when they are riding its not very hard to shoot them, horses are very big targets.
But once you down their horse, and they charge at you with a shield. Its like a 2nd life for them, with the perfect counter. And with the trend of Lance/Polearm builds, they can still be an effective infantry.
And ontop of that 90% of the time when i down a horse, and try and shoot the fallen rider, the arrow simply hits the horse ragdoll.. very annoying.

Luckely most horsemen make the mistake of going in way to deep, or very far behind enemy lines. And are in for a long long walk to merge back up with their team when horse downed. Or they simply spergrage about archers, and make buff cav/nerf archer threads while at it. Fogetting they can most likely still one shot archers, and help out their team as infantry.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: AwesomeHail on March 26, 2016, 11:25:14 am
Make light armour viable again ;-;
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Kortkort on March 26, 2016, 12:10:19 pm
Make light armour viable again ;-;
It's almost like you don't enjoy being smashed by archer cocks. What happened to you man. Complaining is for the weak.

I do sincerely miss the old leveling system though.  :|
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gurgumul on March 26, 2016, 12:59:52 pm
What was the old leveling system?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 26, 2016, 01:03:40 pm
What was the old leveling system?
(click to show/hide)

Just that the base level was 30, high levels were 33-34. A bit less stats overall.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Yeldur on March 26, 2016, 02:23:20 pm
Either way, Dupre already made it clear that returning is impossible, and to be honest, I'm glad, it means I have to re-learn all my common builds from scratch again, and after all the testing and shit I've done on Ladoea it would be horrible to have to re-do everything again lol.

After doing a bit more testing on my whole theory of "agiwhore OP!!11!1" I discovered that unless you're playing a spammy katana build or a staff/quarterstaff build it's not really going to go anywhere, and I can see the blatant weakness in light armour too. Looks like the way to go with all the my old friendchers is just to build 27/17 or 27/15 and then wear light/med armour, that seems to give you a decent enough boost in STR and speed.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 27, 2016, 04:13:56 am
Things to consider changing as well;

Remove night time, rain and fog.
Remove turnrate nerf.
Edit mapcycle, there are some really nasty maps.
Add ladders.
Native arrow models back(?) if the new ones are bad that is.

Any way to make characters colliding less warpy? The sole reason i cant play 1h is because facehugging is so glitchy, but habimana seems to have full control over it, and he can sink into my body and then hit me in the back when i see him basically inside me. Very broken stuff, cant remember any of this happening before the patch that also put me to 50 ping instead of 35. But i see this happen to others as well, and have heard same thing called out on teamspeak from players with lower ping.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on March 27, 2016, 04:46:14 am
Things to consider changing as well;

Do not remove night time, rain and fog.
Remove turnrate nerf.
Edit mapcycle, there are some really nasty maps.
Add ladders.
Native arrow models back(?) if the new ones are bad that is.

Any way to make characters colliding less warpy? The sole reason i cant play 1h is because facehugging is so glitchy, but habimana seems to have full control over it, and he can sink into my body and then hit me in the back when i see him basically inside me. Very broken stuff, cant remember any of this happening before the patch that also put me to 50 ping instead of 35. But i see this happen to others as well, and have heard same thing called out on teamspeak from players with lower ping.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: McKli_PL on March 27, 2016, 05:35:04 am
It's really annoying how horrible polearms are in teamfights if your teammates are too retarded to know how to properly let you support/support you.
  :shock: le waaaaaaaat :shock: polearms are freaking Godlike when it comes to group fight, much better even than 2h (sounds crazy :D) but yeah team fights are were pure polearmers shine, and it should be a golden rule if some1 have longer weapon 2h/pole to always cancel attack if position is sh1t and your fighting near classes/ppl with shorter weapons.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 27, 2016, 11:02:51 am
Pikecopters are not fun or skill at any point grawoth.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Molly on March 27, 2016, 11:07:38 am
Pikecopters are not fun or skill at any point grawoth.
You're just a low level scrub for saying that! Git gud!

Hitting people through the ground or walls iz dem shitz too, men!


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Utrakil on March 27, 2016, 01:04:28 pm
Most players loom their weapons first, but after hundreds of giveaways, flashsales, and the long grinding time this mod is around, it is safe to assume that 90%+ of the active population have at least one fully loomed heavy armor set. The time where 100 damage hit a level 31 character in unloomed armor are over;
I think you are wrong on this. there are lots of players that have different alts in different classes and different outfits.
If you think 1 alt each class you already have to loom 14 weapons (1h: sword+axe+shield; 2h:is cheap only needs one weapon; Pole:a long stabby one and a short for closeencounter; archer: bow+ quiver+meleeweapon; x-bow: x-bow+bolts+meleeweapon; thrower: throwing weapon; cav:horse.)
I think I am not the only one here who still has not yet loomed all weapons I use. that means There are lots of players without fully loomed armours.
shure you have those players that play one alt with the same equipment since years. they are for shure fully loomed but if you start adjusting the ballance to fully loomed armour you will just kick the more diverse players in the nuts.
instead of ballancing around loomed armour it would make more sence to reduce the loombuff so it doesn't break the balance.
You could change all loombuffs to +1;+2;+3 to even out the balance problem a litle.

Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: AwesomeHail on March 27, 2016, 01:05:56 pm
Any way to make characters colliding less warpy? The sole reason i cant play 1h is because facehugging is so glitchy, but habimana seems to have full control over it, and he can sink into my body and then hit me in the back when i see him basically inside me. Very broken stuff, cant remember any of this happening before the patch that also put me to 50 ping instead of 35. But i see this happen to others as well, and have heard same thing called out on teamspeak from players with lower ping.

Just stay away from Habi if you have problems with him (that neverending downlook leftspam surely is glitchy) but nonetheless 1h (without shield, as I am using) is a bit weak versus other classes, but with shield it should be completely fine if you are using a good build.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Molly on March 27, 2016, 01:07:37 pm
Gen 22 on my main. Having looms worth 8lp.

I tend to flash trade whenever I want something, disregarding my loss during the trade itself :lol:
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 27, 2016, 01:55:31 pm
Pikecopters are not fun or skill at any point grawoth.

The more you type, the less i think youre going to ever come with anything usefull. Piking is actually pretty hard, especially in current population its extremely hard to do anything worth mentioning. People crying about spin stabs were indeed just crappy players who lost duels to a 1 directional. Another example of how the mod has not been balanced by the top, but by the scrubs complaining.

On top of that they are very fun to play, or used to be, now its just so restricted its barely worth picking up.

You're just a low level scrub for saying that! Git gud!

Hitting people through the ground or walls iz dem shitz too, men!


(click to show/hide)

I guess its not a secret what population the game has catered to.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Bobthehero on March 27, 2016, 02:10:33 pm
Tell it to me straight,  it's too early for me to figure it out
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gurnisson on March 27, 2016, 02:36:32 pm
You're just a low level scrub for saying that! Git gud!

Hitting people through the ground or walls iz dem shitz too, men!


(click to show/hide)

Can't stab through the ground unless you'd remove collisions as well.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 27, 2016, 02:37:43 pm
The more you type, the less i think youre going to ever come with anything usefull. Piking is actually pretty hard, especially in current population its extremely hard to do anything worth mentioning. People crying about spin stabs were indeed just crappy players who lost duels to a 1 directional. Another example of how the mod has not been balanced by the top, but by the scrubs complaining.

On top of that they are very fun to play, or used to be, now its just so restricted its barely worth picking up.

I guess its not a secret what population the game has catered to.
I dont have aces to my pc now and I dont really like type on phone. I have my reasons behind that statement but I also think you are going bit off topic so I will avoid any discusion on that matter.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 27, 2016, 03:18:43 pm
I dont have aces to my pc now and I dont really like type on phone. I have my reasons behind that statement but I also think you are going bit off topic so I will avoid any discusion on that matter.

They mentioned they are open to discussions on other topics so im just adding whatever i wish changed.



Another thing to add that may have to do with hiltslashing etc, the early hit animation change is horrible. My stabs glance before i can interrupt them etc, absolutely horrible for gameplay.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 27, 2016, 03:30:56 pm
Soo that changes are on now?
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 27, 2016, 04:51:24 pm
Whatever is changed, we need the archery change quickly because the game is suffering hard from it.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Dupre on March 28, 2016, 05:05:16 am
Whatever is changed, we need the archery change quickly because the game is suffering hard from it.

Changes being made tonight. Should be patched in today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Kelugarn on March 29, 2016, 05:50:33 am
Changes being made tonight. Should be patched in today or tomorrow.

Prais.

Pre-Tydeus sweet spots would be amazing with the new leveling system too.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: hellou on March 30, 2016, 11:12:22 am
1. Add delay for voice commands.

2. Add delay for switching weapons/primary and secondary attack.

3. Buff shields in hp and forcefield, 180° protection from the front with 4 shieldskill points.
 And vs jump thrower exploiters.

4. Nerf headshot bonuses, main reasons range classes are still op. More Headshots with helps like that from Pandor are possible, so nerf. Make low damage arrows bounce off heavy armor. Look steel plate protect better than wooden shield or maybe we should make tanks from wood?   :mrgreen:

5. Make pike/longspear/bamboo not able to block, reduce damage to heavy armor.

6. Reduce damage from small blunt weapons like stones, wooden stick/staff.
Blunt damage: low weight of weapon = low damage or none.
High weight of weapon =  slow and unbalanced

7. Nerf melee damage from throwing weapons.

8. Add better rewards for mercenary in strat like more xp, gold and silver.

9. Give Characters under level 37 more xp gain to be able to reach the try hards.

10. Nerf speedbonus  (agi whores make team split and turnrate to pstop macro dpi abusers).

Harry up or someone may leave the mod  :lol:
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Bizgov on March 30, 2016, 01:02:59 pm
The damage of bows is kinda ok. I have 27/18 with 5 if (35 lvl) and i survived headshot and 2 body shots from nebun. The only problem is high missile speed, thats why archers are so accurate. Its very easy to predict movement if missile speed is so high. And some one QQ that xbow are weaker then bow atm? I think it is right, because xbowers dont need to waste skill points in power drow, so they are much stronger in mele.
1: Decrease missile speed for bows.
2: Slighty increase dmg for bows.(because dmg will be lower with lower missile speed)
3: Increase accuracy for bows.(because accuracy will be lower with lower missile speed)
4: Xbows are fine now, mb raise abit reload speed.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: karasu on March 30, 2016, 01:34:48 pm
Pikecopters are not fun or skill at any point grawoth.

Hey, 360 noscope silly jump stab with pike was super fun, disregard "skill". The same reason that led to reverting 2h stab. Superdoucheman animation stab is "fun", disregard "OP rotfl skill omg laz0rs" gibberish.

Like the good ol' awlpike target switching dance.  :lol:


Personally, having fun is what matters.  :lol:   (inb4 ban, no fun allowed)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 30, 2016, 01:46:53 pm
4. Nerf headshot bonuses, main reasons range classes are still op. More Headshots with helps like that from Pandor are possible, so nerf. Make low damage arrows bounce off heavy armor. Look steel plate protect better than wooden shield or maybe we should make tanks from wood?   :mrgreen:

What, why? This just makes archers useless, and forcing them to headshot to deal damage is great to make them more skill based, just that the missilespeed makes them a bit too easy now.

5. Make pike/longspear/bamboo not able to block, reduce damage to heavy armor.

Again, why? Barely anyone uses pikes, its just not viable in this low population battle. Might as well just remove the weapons with this.

6. Reduce damage from small blunt weapons like stones, wooden stick/staff.
Blunt damage: low weight of weapon = low damage or none.
High weight of weapon =  slow and unbalanced

Again, no reason, this would just make already bad weapons worse than fighting with fists.

7. Nerf melee damage from throwing weapons.

Seems unecessary, they are already super short and quite weak compared to non-throwing melee.

10. Nerf speedbonus  (agi whores make team split and turnrate to pstop macro dpi abusers).

Dpi/sensitivity has no impact on the game, if you think this then you have some things to learn and should focus on training in melee rather than cry about those that have. Low sensitivity is pretty much better in every way anyways. And agi builds are already quite weak, only very good melee players make good use of them and thats if they manage to find duels, and avoid ranged, which is a big skill as well.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on March 30, 2016, 02:53:10 pm
Add a delay for changing weapon modes.
Fix the warping stuff with 1hs. Saw it bypassing correct blocks yesterday.
Remove the AOE attack that the mauls seem to have.
Reduce the amount of effect IF has on WPF, it reduces too much making heavy armour characters too damn fast.
Make it harder to glance on characters below a specific armour amount (I'm talking cloth armour).

Just a few thoughts.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rebelyell on March 30, 2016, 03:03:43 pm
Hey, 360 noscope silly jump stab with pike was super fun, disregard "skill". The same reason that led to reverting 2h stab. Superdoucheman animation stab is "fun", disregard "OP rotfl skill omg laz0rs" gibberish.

Like the good ol' awlpike target switching dance.  :lol:


Personally, having fun is what matters.  :lol:   (inb4 ban, no fun allowed)
I prefer immersion balanced with fun but on other hand I like to see some full on crazy mode with rollfcopters super jumps and all kind of crazzy stuffs. I just prefer that first option more. It is not like I can change anything I just voice my opinion.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: AwesomeHail on March 30, 2016, 05:42:01 pm
Quote
Low sensitivity is pretty much better in every way anyways.

 :lol:

Feinting, turning, blocking from an incoming attack, hiting faster by moving your mouse in the direction of attack. Mouse sensivitity is super important IMO.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 30, 2016, 05:50:12 pm
:lol:

Feinting, turning, blocking from an incoming attack, hiting faster by moving your mouse in the direction of attack. Mouse sensivitity is super important IMO.

Sensitivity doesnt help feinting and blocking, and the turn rate is limited so having high sensitivity doesnt help turning swings, unless you have minimal sens. You just need to move the mouse the very slightest distance to change an attack or block, so the only thing sensitivity does is turn your screen more during this (horrible for blocking, if you get feint spammed you'll turn too much eventually).
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gurgumul on March 30, 2016, 06:19:44 pm
1. Remove temporary mute after 5 consecutive hairpin turns voice commands.

2. Add delay for switching weapons/primary and secondary attack.

3. Buff shields in hp and forcefield, 180° protection from the front with 4 shieldskill points.
 And vs jump thrower exploiters.

4. Nerf headshot bonuses, main reasons range classes are still op. More Headshots with helps like that from Pandor are possible, so nerf. Make low damage arrows bounce off heavy armor. Look steel plate protect better than wooden shield or maybe we should make tanks from wood?   :mrgreen:

5. Make pike/longspear/bamboo not able to block, reduce damage to heavy armor.

6. Reduce damage from small blunt weapons like stones, wooden stick/staff.
Blunt damage: low weight of weapon = low damage or none.
High weight of weapon =  slow and unbalanced

7. Nerf melee damage from throwing weapons.

8. Add better rewards for mercenary in strat like more xp, gold and silver.

9. Give Characters under level 37 more xp gain to be able to reach the try hards.

10. Nerf speedbonus  (agi whores make team split and turnrate to pstop macro dpi abusers).

Harry up or someone may leave the mod  :lol:

Fix'd

It's so annoying when I can't spam qix
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: MURDERTRON on March 30, 2016, 06:36:38 pm
Just remove ranged all together and if you get like 3 kills in a row, it calls in a wave of arrows from an archer team.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Paul on April 12, 2016, 11:03:16 am
If you want more glancing and more high power hits, then you need to change the armor soak values that were fiddled with way back when. But, as i remember, the change was needed and made the game much more enjoyable.

I'm actually very much in favour of reverting to more nativenesque soak and reduce armour values. Back in the day the change was made because of the high damage randomness and thus glancing randomness. I wanted to make the game more deterministic and thus - imho - more skillbased because back then even a decent hit with a weaker weapon could bounce off plate because of a bad dice roll. With WSE2 cmp managed to reduce or even remove randomness completely (don't remember) so glancing would be one's own fault most of the time. I think reverting the values would make plate great again.

I think Armagan might have introduced the randomness in the first place to unfuck bots fighting each other. A simple AI duel would end in glancing deadlocks more often without some damage variation. A player can maximize it with hold time, movement speed, placement and sweet spots but a bot's a bot.


Compensating for wide crosshairs requires skill; shooting with pinpoint accurate ranged weapons does not. Landing a headshot into a 20 pixel head is harder with a 30 pixel crosshair than with a 1 pixel crosshair, and it doesn't come down to luck. If you center your 30 pixels into the 20 pixels, chances are you'll hit. If you aim at the top left edge of the earlobe with your 1 pixel, you'll still hit although you technically didn't aim at the center of the head.

Holy fuck. This is creationism tier reasoning.

the turn nerf is a good example of what happens when middle of the road players are used to make balance decisions, literally no top 10% player though it was a good idea but cmp and paul completely ignored them because they were bottom of the scoreboard trashcans who kept losing 1v1s to people with pikes and decided that wasn't right, and nevermind that it fucked melee up big time.

Noice. That's exactly how it happened. It's not liek the (donating) masses were crying about tornado pikes and cmp forced us to pull a formular out of our asses because he was the 2nd laziest overlord around. Also muh balance for (strat) battles and not duels.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: McKli_PL on April 12, 2016, 12:41:30 pm
I'm actually very much in favour of reverting to more nativenesque soak and reduce armour values. Back in the day the change was made because of the high damage randomness and thus glancing randomness. I wanted to make the game more deterministic and thus - imho - more skillbased because back then even a decent hit with a weaker weapon could bounce off plate because of a bad dice roll. With WSE2 cmp managed to reduce or even remove randomness completely (don't remember) so glancing would be one's own fault most of the time. I think reverting the values would make plate great again.
mate plate is great again or i would write plate is great always when u know how to play as heavy inf, plz don't balance or fix nothing  :D one morron NA Tydeus was enough to f**** up this great game so hard :|
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Paul on April 12, 2016, 12:49:50 pm
Well, my grammatically impaired friend from buttcountry, a soak increase would also mean a reduce decrease so overall damage would stay the same if done correctly. There would just be more glances depending on movement skill, holds and sweet spotting. No need to be afraid though. I'm not active anymore as a dev so I'm just stating my preferences.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Yeldur on April 12, 2016, 06:26:22 pm
1. Add delay for voice commands.

2. Add delay for switching weapons/primary and secondary attack.

3. Buff shields in hp and forcefield, 180° protection from the front with 4 shieldskill points.
 And vs jump thrower exploiters.

4. Nerf headshot bonuses, main reasons range classes are still op. More Headshots with helps like that from Pandor are possible, so nerf. Make low damage arrows bounce off heavy armor. Look steel plate protect better than wooden shield or maybe we should make tanks from wood?   :mrgreen:

5. Make pike/longspear/bamboo not able to block, reduce damage to heavy armor.

6. Reduce damage from small blunt weapons like stones, wooden stick/staff.
Blunt damage: low weight of weapon = low damage or none.
High weight of weapon =  slow and unbalanced

7. Nerf melee damage from throwing weapons.

8. Add better rewards for mercenary in strat like more xp, gold and silver.

9. Give Characters under level 37 more xp gain to be able to reach the try hards.

10. Nerf speedbonus  (agi whores make team split and turnrate to pstop macro dpi abusers).

Harry up or someone may leave the mod  :lol:

1. No.

2. No.

3. ...

4. I hate archers, but no. If you think getting shot in the head wouldn't offer a significant damage boost then I honestly have no hope.

5. You're seriously having trouble dealing with a class that can only hit in one direction, that for the most part, glances due to people having no clue how to play it..?

6. No.

7. No. Only throwing weapon melee that needs tuning is the throwing lance.

8. Don't really play as a merc so can't answer that.

9. No.

10. No.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: McKli_PL on April 12, 2016, 10:04:14 pm
Well, my grammatically impaired friend from buttcountry, a soak increase would also mean a reduce decrease so overall damage would stay the same if done correctly. There would just be more glances depending on movement skill, holds and sweet spotting. No need to be afraid though. I'm not active anymore as a dev so I'm just stating my preferences.
dear shit no brain bot, aka no brain NA(b) plz dont teach me how to play pure heavy inf,  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D lol kurwa this this bot hahhahahaa lol x1 team :_)))))))))))))))  buahahahhaha this fucking bot is talking about how to glance vs tincan and about meleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee heavy inffffffffffffff, buahahhaahhahahaahaha and teaching about movement on tincan hahhahahahhahahaahahahaahhah kurwa sorry son too much cocain today,son plz teach me about glancing in crpg +60armor hahahahahahaha o kurwaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :D :D :D : buahahhahhaha lolololol im talking about how full plate (pure fucking plate not NA(b) plate)is waaaaaaay OP in combat scenario and in teamplay screnario is a major factor how to win a round :mrgreen: (like a said one nab from Na (Tydeus) now this bot Paul whant to fucking balance things top kurwa kek yeeeessssss buffffff more  heavy plate u dumb fuck!!!! :P :mrgreen:)
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: njames89 on April 12, 2016, 10:50:50 pm
I just really hope the reload time for xbows and the release glitch will be reverted for the lower rank xbows.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 13, 2016, 12:37:06 am
I'm actually very much in favour of reverting to more nativenesque soak and reduce armour values. Back in the day the change was made because of the high damage randomness and thus glancing randomness. I wanted to make the game more deterministic and thus - imho - more skillbased because back then even a decent hit with a weaker weapon could bounce off plate because of a bad dice roll. With WSE2 cmp managed to reduce or even remove randomness completely (don't remember) so glancing would be one's own fault most of the time. I think reverting the values would make plate great again.


I'd be all for it, i think it would help a lot now. Or at least something similar, because i remember it being like either you glance, or you do a lot of damage. Id like more damage and a bit more glancing, but i dont want all low damage weapons to get fucked.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Nightingale on April 13, 2016, 12:43:22 am
dear shit no brain bot, aka no brain NA(b) plz dont teach me how to play pure heavy inf,  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D lol kurwa this this bot hahhahahaa lol x1 team :_)))))))))))))))  buahahahhaha this fucking bot is talking about how to glance vs tincan and about meleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee heavy inffffffffffffff, buahahhaahhahahaahaha and teaching about movement on tincan hahhahahahhahahaahahahaahhah kurwa sorry son too much cocain today,son plz teach me about glancing in crpg +60armor hahahahahahaha o kurwaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :D :D :D : buahahhahhaha lolololol im talking about how full plate (pure fucking plate not NA(b) plate)is waaaaaaay OP in combat scenario and in teamplay screnario is a major factor how to win a round :mrgreen: (like a said one nab from Na (Tydeus) now this bot Paul whant to fucking balance things top kurwa kek yeeeessssss buffffff more  heavy plate u dumb fuck!!!! :P :mrgreen:)

I learn something new every day. I had no idea Paul moved to NA so welcome to NA fuckery Paul.

I'm pretty sure (NA) Rico and I have decided to increase reloading time on xbows and half their dmg while doubling archer dmg and halfing their accuracy. This is fantastic.
We also are going to buff rock throwers and peasant weapons. This game needs more fuckery.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on April 13, 2016, 02:21:49 am

We also are going to buff rock throwers and peasant weapons. This game needs more fuckery.
Yes, make it so rocks can be thrown with both hands in 2 directions at the same time, and decrease the weight and increase the ammo amount. Or even better make it so you can just pick up random rocks on the ground and make them easily spotted.  :P
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: McKli_PL on April 13, 2016, 06:21:26 am
I learn something new every day. I had no idea Paul moved to NA so welcome to NA fuckery Paul.

I'm pretty sure (NA) Rico and I have decided to increase reloading time on xbows and half their dmg while doubling archer dmg and halfing their accuracy. This is fantastic.
We also are going to buff rock throwers and peasant weapons. This game needs more fuckery.
ohhh i just thought that if some1 is so 'special' to buff even more plate and reverting glance mechanic to pre revival patch just need to be from NA :mrgreen:
don't buff plate to the dumb level when ppl were trading glance vs pure raw damage(killing in 1hit) like it was pre patch, now plate it's deadly enough so no need to buff it even more :|
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on April 30, 2016, 01:49:13 am
an inbuilt option to give a global free respec and a global free heirloom exchange are planned but we must see how we get there
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Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Rico on May 20, 2016, 05:58:00 pm
What's best about all of this is that I do it for China

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Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Nickleback on May 29, 2016, 01:36:29 am
You know i told you all that this will happen in a thread i opened,i don't even want to go my posts find it and share with you because people who is doing these nerfs and buffs doesn't read stuff.

I wroted that they have made a big mistake with the last page and they will revert it like 1-2 months later after many people agonize,that is what happened here.

This problem could be solved months earlier if the item managers like chinese dud rico reading the player's comments.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Asheram on June 23, 2017, 07:17:31 pm
So when mod is rolled back to 2012 mode will horse riding requirements go back too? Used to be able to ride Arabian horse with 6 riding skill now its 7.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Mallets on June 24, 2017, 04:11:47 am
So when mod is rolled back to 2012 mode will horse riding requirements go back too? Used to be able to ride Arabian horse with 6 riding skill now its 7.

Yes, but Donkey disappears!    :shock: :( :cry:
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 24, 2017, 04:17:11 am
Hopefully we get instant horse rearing with polearms too. Stupid ass horses ill glance if i want to and you better get staggered.
Title: Re: We Are Reverting
Post by: Algarn on June 29, 2017, 01:12:54 am
Yes, but Donkey disappears!    :shock: :( :cry:

New items are very, very likely to stay.