cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: matt2507 on February 17, 2016, 11:43:10 am

Title: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: matt2507 on February 17, 2016, 11:43:10 am
Here is a feedback thread about the recent changes.
Don't hesitate to give your feedback there but do it in a constructive way please.

If you play archer or xbow, tell us in first what class you play and what build you use.

exemple:
Quote
Archer, 21/21, 7PD, 156WPF.

I like banana's and bla bla bla, etc...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Paul on February 17, 2016, 12:01:02 pm
For the unplaying: what changed?
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: PastorNapas on February 17, 2016, 12:18:01 pm
Аrcher
30\18
10pd\155 wpf.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Hellsing on February 17, 2016, 12:21:26 pm
archer, 21/24, 7PD, 160wpf
(click to show/hide)

Hmm feels kinda more unaccure now..
Need around same amount of arrows each bot..
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 17, 2016, 12:58:03 pm
"I don't like everything"
I use +3 arbalest and +3 steel bolts

(click to show/hide)

One, this change is extreme and will kill off any dedicated build for this class. To many things changed all at once by people that don't understand the class they are changing. Which could have been avoided by including me on the balance discussion for this change as I am supposedly on the item balancing team and I am someone that has used this weapon and very similar builds for the entirety of the mod's life span.

Strength requirement (24) is to high, 21 is where it needs to be as that is +6 from pre-level patch that tydeus/san introduced currently 24 is +9 in comparison forcing people(me?) maybe a few others to change the build they have become accustom to will only cause frustration and aggravation. I'm for changing the strength requirement from 18 as it leaves to many skill points for me to play with (see my build.) pre-level patch my lvl 30 build was 15-27 9 wm 9 ath and 3 ps which was a balanced build with clear trade offs. With this change I will be forced to only have 9 wm and 9 ath with 2 ps as a level 37 build where level 35 is the base level. 21 str makes more sense to counter the high level changes.

Missile speed changes: definitely revert these changes this messes with people's prediction capabilities that they have become accustom to for 4 years. Changing this value won't be noticeable for people picking the weapon up just to test it now that you've changed it. It only effects people that are dedicated to the class and won't change weapons. Which they should be rightfully skilled in making longer range shots in comparison to someone who just picked it up.

Accuracy increase: This is the opposite of what needed to happen. I would inverse this change instead of +10, make it -10 Accuracy. All ranged weapons are already way to precise. Decreasing accuracy would help differentiate between skilled ranged and people with little experience. Not to mention increasing accuracy only decreases the amount of WPF needed before you can make shots. Which in turn nerfs dedication and buffs no investment. If I was to make an actual build with this accuracy change I could easily sport 100 or less WPF investment.

Reload speed change: This change while hitting the target it needs to be tweaked. Reload speed did in fact need to be slower but this might be to much. I know before this change you would be lucky to shoot all 8 of your bolts in any given round on battle. Now I'd imagine you could lower the bolt quiver to 5 without any noticeable effects.

Damage change: Again the opposite of what should have happened. Instead of a damage nerf on the higher tier xbows, they needed a very slight damage buff. The opposite has happened lower tier xbows are now superior in every way in comparison to higher tier xbows.

TL:DR
Solution: Pre-patch perspective
+3 str requirement (21)
scrap the missile speed change
reload time increased slightly
damage increase slightly on higher tier xbows.
Decrease accuracy and increase wpf weight in determining shot reliability.


Ideally each xbow should be unique and have different capabilities that are designed with a specific class in mind which is currently not the case.

I have no opinion on bow changes as I'm not an archer and have little experience as an archer. Though pre-patch they were to accurate already.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Weren on February 17, 2016, 01:17:17 pm
My hunting crossbow build is completely broken. The whole point of it was to trade all the accuracy and damage for mobility.
Now reloading hunting crossbow takes about the same time as it took arbalest prepatch, which I find ridiculous. And hunting crossbow didn't even get a damage boost like rest of the xbows.  :|

Build:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 17, 2016, 01:31:16 pm
So is this ultimately a nerf, or a change that forces more dedication to reach prepatch levels? If people are forced to drop what they could previously do (mobility or possibility for melee skills) then they should atleast get some damage increases.


If youve managed to find some sort of solution, a change to the ranged class, that doesnt necessarily gimp them then i will be very impressed. If its basically just a nerf, then ill be a bit dissapointed. Buff shields btw, i think they could all use a bit more width. The viking shield has massive width which is wonderful, but i think a lot of the other shields are so lacking in width id rather fight manual blocking than having them out in melee. And for ranged, if they had a bit more width they could be more valuable to 2h/pole who only want a couple of points invested in shield.

Make shields super strong, to encourage use. Bordering in on OP, that would probably help a lot. But the meta would shift a lot towards axes, 1h, hoplite.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 17, 2016, 01:32:14 pm
Quote from: Weren on February 17, 2016, 01:17:17 pm
My hunting crossbow build is completely broken. The whole point of it was to trade all the accuracy and damage for mobility.
Now reloading hunting crossbow takes about the same time as it took arbalest prepatch, which I find ridiculous. And hunting crossbow didn't even get a damage boost like rest of the xbows.  :|

Build:
(click to show/hide)

damage boost other xbows got? Maybe I didn't see something but every xbow lost damage. No xbow gained damage.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Weren on February 17, 2016, 01:40:56 pm
Quote from: Nightingale on February 17, 2016, 01:32:14 pm
damage boost other xbows got? Maybe I didn't see something but every xbow lost damage. No xbow gained damage.
EDIT: Sorry I didn't notice the 4.4.9 patch notes
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Kansuke on February 17, 2016, 01:47:37 pm
18/27

115 one handed
170 crossbow
9 ATH
9 WM

I'm okay about the difficulty change, it makes sense, I changed my arbalest to a crossbow. The new accuracy and missile speed are welcome to balance this.

However the new reload speed makes no sense.

The whole point of my build was hit and run and hunting enemy archer. With this build I need up to 3 MW steel bolt to kill a single archer. Atleast let me shoot as fast as before with a crossbow...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Guray on February 17, 2016, 01:49:08 pm
Archer , 24-27 , 198 archery , 8 pd .

Going back to cav shielder asap
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rebelyell on February 17, 2016, 01:55:06 pm
Quote from: Guray on February 17, 2016, 01:49:08 pm
Archer , 24-27 , 198 archery , 8 pd .

Going back to cav shielder asap
thank you
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Bronto on February 17, 2016, 02:09:53 pm

Quote from: Nightingale on February 17, 2016, 12:58:03 pm
(click to show/hide)

It appears we were arguing the same point......I was just too stupid to realize it. Carry on....you're doing a great job...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 17, 2016, 02:27:27 pm
Oh no... what have you done. Please tell me that the team didn't actually listen to the bitching and moaning about ranged...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: the real god emperor on February 17, 2016, 02:49:24 pm
18/27 crossbowman 170 wpf

Arbalest was so precise and headshots were so easy also I was mobile as shit

Now I will have to slow down however I will have to invest significantly less wpf on crossbows which is good because I will crush skulls with 8 PS. 4.4.9 was terrible but after hotfix hunting people wont be much of a problem, patch forces xbowmen to stand and fight but that was what I did before.

New bows are meh.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2016, 03:01:02 pm
I'm giving respecs to ranged players who want to test the balance changes with new builds. PM me with your character name

edit: no more respecs, it's been a week since the patch which is enough time to use your 7-day-respec
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Bronto on February 17, 2016, 03:04:02 pm
That's really awesome Rico and there you go Nightingale, you can test out some builds and get used to playing with more strength!!!!!!
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Golem on February 17, 2016, 03:05:45 pm
Imo, buff damage of steel bolts to 20 and decrease the ammo to 5.
Make bow missile speed even less, but supply pew pews with lots of arrows.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 17, 2016, 03:27:12 pm
Quote from: Bronto on February 17, 2016, 03:04:02 pm
That's really awesome Rico and there you go Nightingale, you can test out some builds and get used to playing with more strength!!!!!!

Bronto I think you misunderstood me. I'm not against the higher strength requirement but 24 is to much compensation for the high level patch and even if they don't change it back my build will just have more ath and more wm while having no ps and no ironflesh. As the most important skill set as a pure Arbalestier is retaining enough speed to keep up with the team and make it to them in a pinch. Not to mention me never playing battle and only being around during strat sieges. How I play is how I play. If I cant play the way I like playing I simply wont play. Never going to get used to any new builds as I'm not testing any.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Úlfur on February 17, 2016, 03:32:21 pm
Absolutely hate the patch, give us back our accuracy and xbows.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 17, 2016, 03:33:24 pm
Quote from: Golem on February 17, 2016, 03:05:45 pm
Imo, buff damage of steel bolts to 20 and decrease the ammo to 5.
Make bow missile speed even less, but supply pew pews with lots of arrows.

Changing it to 5 would negatively effect strat and lower tier xbows.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yeldur on February 17, 2016, 03:37:51 pm
Every xbow got a damage nerf, and a speed nerf.

Archers didn't get the same. Why?
Xbow is the biggest counter you can get to an archer, except for maybe a shield, but that's debatable.
Why on earth would you ever nerf one and NOT do the exact same to the other.

You've saved your asses with the hotfix, but please think a lot more on patches in the future and whether they're healthy for C-RPG as opposed to game breaking. Archers are definitely substantially stronger now purely on the basis that all xbows are now significantly weakened, they're not bad, they're still playable, and I do think Arba is in a relatively health position currently, but it would be wise to not go completely to town with nerfs on items.

I'm currently using 24/21
with
Weapon Master:7
Athletics:7
Riding:0
Iron Flesh:4
Shield:0
Horse Archery:0
Power Strike:8
Power Draw:0
Power Throw:0

One Handed:71
Two Handed:6
Polearm:6
Throwing:1
Crossbow:155
Archery:1

Not doing terrible but not doing amazing, I'm sitting about half way in terms of how I feel on things.
I haven't tried out the other xbows primarily out of fear that they'd be so weak shooting the thing would cause it to crumble into ash.

Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Bronto on February 17, 2016, 03:56:46 pm
Quote from: Nightingale on February 17, 2016, 03:27:12 pm
(click to show/hide)

Sorry, I misunderstood you. What should've been done was reducing accuracy of the xbows rather than messing with the strength stats. Crossbow should have more point investment to be effective rather than less and being able to still be viable in melee. Archers sacrifice melee to shoot people, why shouldn't the xbow class do the same?
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Molly on February 17, 2016, 04:10:12 pm
Tbh, I am kinda surprised. I've never experienced Xbow to be a troubling class. I get barely killed by them.
Archer arrow spam is much more troubling in my eyes.

Guess my perception is just a different one.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Pandor_Archer on February 17, 2016, 04:26:26 pm
Archery is no skill just luck now.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 17, 2016, 04:29:24 pm
THEY TOOK OUR JOBS XBOWS!!!!
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on February 17, 2016, 04:32:07 pm
After spawning in EU1 fresh after installing the new patch I proceeded to fire off a masterwork steel bolt in the direction of a horde of gibbering apes.. After missing any possible target by miles I then proceeded to reload my masterwork crossbow only it seemed Murmillus had suddenly developed arthitis of the spine. Instead of taking 5 seconds to reload it now takes Murmillus half an hour to reload his masterwork crossbow.

TL:DR

Patch sucks.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Úlfur on February 17, 2016, 04:33:24 pm
In short, Patch is cancer. please pull your head out of your melee friend ass and look at what you're doing :)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Úlfur on February 17, 2016, 04:56:03 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on February 17, 2016, 04:49:44 pm
See... if they had given archery a 'minor' nerf a few weeks/months ago it might have annoyed some people but wouldn't really have changed much and then the class wouldn't have been nerfed now. But because there have been no recent minor nerfs, for ye patient melee players all thine hard work payeth off for weathering this storm, the eventual inevitable nerf grew ever-greater in magnitude the longer the class went unnerfed patch-by-patch.

Aka if you whine hard enough the person doing patches will become blind and nerf classes into the ground.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2016, 04:59:46 pm
I'm unhappy with the changes.

Situation before the patch:
Hunting Crossbow and Light Crossbow were underused niche weapons for hit and run, HX, or hybrids. Their damage potential was quite low because of the low missile speed and accuracy: You could only reliably hit the enemy's body from point-blank range; headshots over medium distances were really difficult. Unless headshots, these weapons barely made any kills at all.
Crossbow: More inaccurate than Heavy Crossbow, thus borderline impossible to score headshots over longer distances. The additional damage compared to Hunting Crossbow and Light Crossbow does somewhat compensate for that, but given people's levels, the popularity of iron flesh and heavy armor, this weapon didn't do too much. The only reason you'd use it is because you want to skill only 12 STR and save some skill points, perhaps for a shield, higher IF or Athl. Qualifies as a niche weapon, too.
Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest: good all-round choices; direct trade-off between STR requirement, effective range, reload delay and damage potential (all are lower for Heavy Crossbow and higher for Arbalest).

Situation after the patch:
The new niche weapons are Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest. Their additional damage barely matters because all crossbows now have pinpoint accuracy if you have enough wpf. The missile speed of all crossbows was increased to. So good players will score more headshots, and due to headshot damage multipliers, it does not really matter if the headshot was made with a Hunting Crossbow or an Arbalest. Due to the crazily high STR requirement for Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest and the desperate need for AGI-centric builds in crossbow gameplay will make it the rational choice to abstain from using Heavy Crossbow and Arbalests.

The market already reflects this change, people are giving up their Heavy Crossbows and Arbalests for looms and gold or directly for one of the other crossbows.

Summary:
While it's good that Hunting Crossbow, Light Crossbow and Crossbow are no longer underused niche weapons, nothing has been gained because Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest have become the new niche weapons.

For melee players, this patch means they will get killed less by body shots and more by headshots. The damage from body shots is lower now, but in turn, it is also easier to hit the head thanks to higher accuracy and missile speed. From a sophisticated crossbow balance, I would expect different roles for different weapons, and an attempt to emphasize these roles, not an homogenization with some of them rendered useless.

What should be improved:
Offer variety:
The rest comes down to introducing reasonable STR requirements. STR requirements are your leverage for making crossbow builds strong or weak. I can propose stats if people agree with my evaluation.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 17, 2016, 05:01:15 pm
Chase still topping as xbow, but now he does it with kills from xbow, and not from melee. Seems like the buff in damage and accuracy is a nice compensation to the forced build changes.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Algarn on February 17, 2016, 05:01:35 pm
Accuracy was nerfed too much at the point I couldn't aim properly (+0 bow, strongest one in the shop) with a 33/15 build. The arrows were instantly landing, and it just created some kind of shotgunning with the bow that was quite fun for a while, but sucked on the long run, since I found myself completely fucked most of the time since I couldn't land any shot beyond 20 meters. The missile speed was fine before, and the accuracy had to be toned down by 1 or 2 points on most bows to make it balanced. Not like 5 or 6, this is turning archery in a point and click adventure + praying simulator, since you might kill allies as well as ennemies when you're shooting.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2016, 05:04:08 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on February 17, 2016, 04:49:44 pm
See... if they had given archery a 'minor' nerf a few weeks/months ago it might have annoyed some people but wouldn't really have changed much and then the class wouldn't have been nerfed now. But because there have been no recent minor nerfs, for ye patient melee players all thine hard work payeth off for weathering this storm, the eventual inevitable nerf grew ever-greater in magnitude the longer the class went unnerfed patch-by-patch.
Except this patch is not a nerf. At least not for crossbows. All implications of the patch can be mitigated by going for Hunting Crossbow, Light Crossbow or Crossbow instead of the previously popular Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest, and aiming for the head instead of the body (which is possible now because missile speed and accuracy are high). See my post above for in-detail explanation.

As for archers, bow requirements are higher now, but this also increases the maximum damage added by power draw. STR archery is even more popular than before now, as far as I can tell from the stats. So the way things are going, no archer will be able to run away, but all will be quite powerful hitters.
Read what Algarn wrote, I guess they are quite powerful hitters only if they shoot in the general direction of a mass of enemies and manage to hit. But the damage has been increased.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: the real god emperor on February 17, 2016, 05:05:13 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on February 17, 2016, 05:01:15 pm
Chase still topping as xbow, but now he does it with kills from xbow, and not from melee. Seems like the buff in damage and accuracy is a nice compensation to the forced build changes.

Chase is out of the question, he tops the board with anything somehow.
Sick bastard.

Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rebelyell on February 17, 2016, 05:07:04 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on February 17, 2016, 05:01:15 pm
Chase still topping as xbow, but now he does it with kills from xbow, and not from melee. Seems like the buff in damage and accuracy is a nice compensation to the forced build changes.
look in to pach notes again

 thrust damage                                      | 85 pierce                      | 58 pierce       

and they buff it a bit in next pach
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2016, 05:08:22 pm
Quote from: Kratos on February 17, 2016, 05:05:13 pm
Chase is out of the question, he tops the board with anything somehow.
Sick bastard.
Yeah, can't base balance decisions entirely on a few exceptional players.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Algarn on February 17, 2016, 05:14:40 pm
Quote from: Rico on February 17, 2016, 05:04:08 pm

As for archers, bow requirements are higher now, but this also increases the maximum damage added by power draw. STR archery is even more popular than before now, as far as I can tell from the stats. So the way things are going, no archer will be able to run away, but all will be quite powerful hitters.
Read what Algarn wrote, I guess they are quite powerful hitters only if they shoot in the general direction of a mass of enemies and manage to hit. But the damage has been increased.

STR archers hurt as much as before as long as they take the right bow, the damage didn't change even a tiny bit (a guy survived a close-range shot in the head with eleven power draw, using a bodkin arrow +3 I picked up).
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Weren on February 17, 2016, 05:18:14 pm
Quote from: Rico on February 17, 2016, 05:04:08 pm
Except this patch is not a nerf. At least not for crossbows. All implications of the patch can be mitigated by going for Hunting Crossbow, Light Crossbow or Crossbow instead of the previously popular Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest, and aiming for the head instead of the body (which is possible now because missile speed and accuracy are high). See my post above for in-detail explanation.

As a dedicated hunting crossbow user I cannot agree with this statement. Shooting and reloading was quick and comfortable before the patch, I could easily fire a shot and still keep up with the rest of the team. I used my experience and skill to compensate for the low damage with headshots by predicting the flight path and drop. Now I drag behind the team and feel like I might as well pick up arbalest because they all take ages to reload.

It's like I don't have a role on the battlefield anymore.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2016, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: Weren on February 17, 2016, 05:18:14 pm
As a dedicated hunting crossbow user I cannot agree with this statement.
Yeah, the role of the Hunting Crossbow has changed. While it's main advantage used to be the fast reload, the new one its is low STR requirement with everything else being more or less the same as for other crossbows (as long as you hit the head). That's why it will certainly feel like a nerf to you.

I haven't considered that there are players who are able to compensate for the bad firing behavior of Hunting Crossbow over higher distances. I certainly can't and used to use it only for point blank fights. I respect your skill and style.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Molly on February 17, 2016, 05:30:18 pm
Quote from: njames89 on February 17, 2016, 04:29:24 pm
THEY TOOK OUR JOBS XBOWS!!!!
+1 for awesome Southpark reference.

Quote from: Pandor_Archer on February 17, 2016, 04:26:26 pm
Archery is no skill just luck now.
Which is utter nonsense cuz I am confident that I'll still be constantly headshotted by Algarn no matter what they do to archery.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Austrian on February 17, 2016, 05:36:33 pm
Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2016, 05:30:18 pm
Which is utter nonsense cuz I am confident that I'll still be constantly headshotted by Algarn no matter what they do to archery.

(click to show/hide)
Algarn is pretty bad tbh..
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Asheram on February 17, 2016, 05:39:11 pm
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Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Úlfur on February 17, 2016, 05:41:50 pm
Give bows their Acc back!

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Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 17, 2016, 05:52:46 pm
Quote from: Rico on February 17, 2016, 05:08:22 pm
Yeah, can't base balance decisions entirely on a few exceptional players.

My point was that the crossbow is the cause for his kills now, while his melee is gimped. So theyve transitioned from skirmishers to snipers, or something like that.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Algarn on February 17, 2016, 06:03:00 pm
Quote from: Austrian on February 17, 2016, 05:36:33 pm
Algarn is pretty bad tbh..
(click to show/hide)

sadfrog.jpg
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Zeus_ on February 17, 2016, 06:17:49 pm
24/18- with the rus hunting longbow

6 wm
6 ath
5 IF
7 PS
8 PD

155 wpf

i am personally fine with the changes of the hunting longbow, but i feel like the draw back speed was already slow enought, and should go back to 55



Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Mallets on February 17, 2016, 06:37:52 pm
First... let me pose this question:

Server numbers have finally been healthy after months of a drought!  Why go piss players off with such drastic changes.  I hope this doesn't cause players to quit and drop numbers.  With that said... giving a loom refund & free respec will probably alleviate a majority of the anger & resentment.


Second, I don't play Xbow or Archer.  I will play Hoplite/Throwing Lance class everyone once in a while (but haven't in months).  So while these changes don't directly effect my builds... I don't like the nature of such drastic changes (I don't think it's healthy for the mod or community).

With that... I don't like the changes at all... but namely do to the extremity of the changes.  I find no problem with toning down certain weapons/armors.  But to change the Arbalest (or any weapon) from 85 dmg to 58 dmg... that's insane!  Seriously, a 27 point jump?!

For such a drastic jump... would mean that Xbow has been grossly advantageous to the point that the game was dang near broken.  But I didn't see that as the case.  I haven't noticed everyone running around with Arbalest (or Xbows in general).

And for a 27 point jump... if things were truly that unbalanced with the Arb... why wasn't it change forever ago.

From what I see... things weren't broken... but someone wanted to try something new and "cool" with the way Xbows were setup.  I think that's kind of pointless... but hey... I don't put any work into creating & updating this mod (too busy & too dumb to do so)... so my complaints should be taken with a grain of salt.

With that said... I think it's quite jerk-ish to make such drastic changes... but not give a looms refund and a class respec.  Any players that have been around for so time... understand these changes happen.  But giving a respec and looms refund will... would also be a fair (and respectable) trade-off to those players that have stuck with the mod so long.


As for the archery changes.  All those bows seem pointless.  I think both Xbow & archery builds should only have 3 or 4 choices from each weapon type, giving distinct advantages/disadvantages between them.  Something along the lines of Rico's post on page 3 (see spoiler).

(click to show/hide)

[Edit:  It appears another patch has come out, wherein Xbow damage has regain a little damage.  So now instead of a 27 point jump, it's a 19 point jump.  Still very drastic.  And it still shows that some mod has permissions that maybe they shouldn't.  You can't drastically change things.  Not health for the mod or community.  And how could a mod think so... unless they just wanted to try something new & "cool".  Mods don't need this mindset.  I know it's a thankless job... but they are hear to serve the game... help make it better.  Not play at game-making.]
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Mr_Sativa on February 17, 2016, 07:06:25 pm
Feedback from the other thread I wrote:

This patch is so not thought-through at all, seriously look here at these stats you have provided (and fix it):

Old Bow now "Longbow" has:

Missile speed: 42, Weight: 3.4, Accuracy: 101, Difficulty: 2, Speed rating: 56, Missile speed: 42, Thrust damage: 25 cut, Slots:2 and Can't use on horseback, which not only is bad in itself compared to the other bows ( I will show you), but you have ALSO rendered my favourite bow - the BOW (not "Longbow") completely useless. 2 PD? It had 4, can't use my MW Bow anymore, it doesn't get any dmg buff from my PD lvl 7 & 8. Which it needs.

Then we have the new "Yonsun Bow", as an example, it has:

Missile speed: 44, Weight: 3.2, Accuracy: 102, Difficulty: 4,  Speed rating: 58 Missile speed: 44, Thrust damage: 24 cut Slots: 1.

Now, look closely. The old "Bow"/Longbow requires 2 slots, can't be used on horseback, and is slower and has less missile speed. The new, Yonsun Bow, only takes 1 slot, weighs less, has better accuracy, better missile speed and 1 less cut damage. But higher PD req.

What have you been drinking? Water?

The old bow was a really nice medium bow, the first big bow you could buy and use, that would allow you to use PD up to 8, with a req of 4. Good investment if you prefer a bit more speed and less acc over more dmg and stability over the old RUS and LONG-bows. But now, it is all a big mess, that isn't any better.

Re-do, make right.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Tiger on February 17, 2016, 07:06:53 pm
Currently 27/12 as STR archer, and everything seems fine to me :D
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Úlfur on February 17, 2016, 07:36:55 pm
There weren't any real problems except for a few people whining about ranged because they never wanted to get a shield.
You gave a direct awnser by making the Viking shield, or also known as a "fucking door on your back" which archers couldn't do anything against.

Now you bring us new names, new bows and change fricking everything about the bows. Who asked for it? Nobody. Absolutely nobody.
Why change the names to unrealistic things? Why nerf the bows so we're pratically retards shooting in a general direction of a thing we might hit if it's bigger than a fucking siege tower?

Why do you make weird changes to the bow and other things?

For the love of christ and the mod turn it back or fix it. I don't want to see my favorite game / mod die for me because ranged gets nerfed into the ground so hard we end up in the China server.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Chasey on February 17, 2016, 07:39:35 pm
I used an arbalest and 1h'r pre patch. My build was 18-27 and evolved around shooting people before they got to me and then killing that damaged person in melee . Now however because of the higher STR requirement I find that I am actually playing the crossbow how it was meant to be played. As gravoth mentioned I use to get most my kills from melee, but now with the accuracy increase and slower movement speed I am encouraged to go for the kill every time, which is much easier to do now. When I do get into melee I can't kite away and I'm forced to fight, although the 8 PS helps, the 27 AGI was much more useful.

So basically after the patch I'm playing how you'd expect an arbalester to play, deadly in range and mediocre in melee compared to being deadly at both, pre-patch.

Also killing archers has become much easier now with the pin point accuracy and the increased missile speed, just wait for them to stop to shoot and you can get a headshot pretty effortlessly, whether this is good for balance or not is up to you.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Mallets on February 17, 2016, 08:33:14 pm
Quote from: Chasey on February 17, 2016, 07:39:35 pm
I used an arbalest and 1h'r pre patch. My build was 18-27 and evolved around shooting people before they got to me and then killing that damaged person in melee . Now however because of the higher STR requirement I find that I am actually playing the crossbow how it was meant to be played. As gravoth mentioned I use to get most my kills from melee, but now with the accuracy increase and slower movement speed I am encouraged to go for the kill every time, which is much easier to do now. When I do get into melee I can't kite away and I'm forced to fight, although the 8 PS helps, the 27 AGI was much more useful.

So basically after the patch I'm playing how you'd expect an arbalester to play, deadly in range and mediocre in melee compared to being deadly at both, pre-patch.

Also killing archers has become much easier now with the pin point accuracy and the increased missile speed, just wait for them to stop to shoot and you can get a headshot pretty effortlessly, whether this is good for balance or not is up to you.

I like your take on it!  If true, then I think that's cool.

But such drastic changes still seem... well... drastic.  Which is gonna through folks for a loop.

And the fact that we now have more than a dozen bows... seems so over the top! 
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Úlfur on February 17, 2016, 08:59:28 pm
I think the easiest/best solution to the problem:
1) Give bows their accuracy back, reduce arrow speed
2) Slightly alter xbow acc, slightly alter bolt speed
3) See how it plays out. Extra: fix bow names & fix all item images

I can help with all of em ;)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: McKli_PL on February 17, 2016, 09:03:39 pm
eSuba Rusbow is k#rwa a Rusbow not some peasant hunting bow:( gieb name back
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Horns on February 17, 2016, 09:58:25 pm
I agree 100% with what Desire said. I haven't played xbow as long as she has nor as often but everything she says makes sense from the time I have spent playing xbow (both recently and in the past). Kbw_Trucewithme is my xbow character btw so if you see me don't shoot at me k thx.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 17, 2016, 10:46:21 pm
Just tried the Crossbow. Totally broke it. When it shoots the release is glitched. Reload time is insane. Please for the love of god revert this patch.

Please give my character King_James_of_Acre a free respec.

edit: to clarify my build is 2h/Crossbow and I am half a ranged player. A respec would allow me to change back to pure melee.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: sJimmy on February 17, 2016, 10:58:16 pm
Change the name back on the Horn Bow and Rus Bow, as an Archer, I am use to being patched all the time, Ill adapt and I sure a balance will be fixed, but please, give back the names of the Rus and Horn bows, so many good times with them bows.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Penitent on February 17, 2016, 11:17:08 pm
Quote from: sJimmy on February 17, 2016, 10:58:16 pm
Change the name back on the Horn Bow and Rus Bow, as an Archer, I am use to being patched all the time, Ill adapt and I sure a balance will be fixed, but please, give back the names of the Rus and Horn bows, so many good times with them bows.

I only play archer on an alt, so I don't feel like I have a lot of say -- but I do archery in RL, and some of these new bow names are dumb as hell. :)  Chief's bow?  CRPG is cool because the weapons and armor are based on historical examples.

There are real bow names you can use:

-Self-bow (in general, a bow made from one piece of wood)
-Flat bow (flat in cross section, unlike a longbow's "D" cross section for example. Common in the Americas, but used elsewhere.)
-Yew Bow (the best kind of wood for making long bows.  Common in continental Europe and England)
-Stick bow (a simple bow, made from a straight piece of wood)
-Sinew-backed bow (sinew increases the durability and draw strength of an all-wood bow)
-Recurve bow (a bow that curves at the tips, like the "bow" and "rus bow" do.

Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: CaptBob on February 17, 2016, 11:33:47 pm
Obviously the item balancers are all fat fucks in plate with 2h and polearms.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: sF_Guardian on February 17, 2016, 11:43:08 pm
Doesn't feel like much changed to archers, my Heraldic Barded Warhorse still dies with 2-3 arrows.
Crossbows are seriously gimped to shit though.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nehvar on February 17, 2016, 11:46:04 pm
Occasional 15/29 160WPF heavy xbow  using steel bolts (xbow/bolts unloomed)

I've played with the light crossbow, crossbow and heavy crossbow since the patch.  I have two issues with the new stats that really sap the fun out it for me.  1) The reload speed in general.  2) The "shot release delayed by up to half a second" effect , which used to be an arbalest-only thing, is now happening with the crossbow on up.

I can't really say much about damage, unfortunately.  It took 3-4 bodyshots to kill a average-build/average-armor player with an unloomed heavy xbow/steel bolts before the patch.  I imagine it takes 5-6 now but that is really hard to test on short notice with current speeds.

EDIT:  Accurate as hell now though.  110WPF hvy.xbow is much more accurate now than 160WPF was before the patch.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 17, 2016, 11:48:39 pm
Quote from: Nehvar on February 17, 2016, 11:46:04 pm
I've played with the light crossbow, crossbow and heavy crossbow since the patch.  I have two issues with the new stats that really sap the fun out it for me.  1) The reload speed in general.  2) The "shot release delayed by up to half a second" effect , which used to be an arbalest-only thing, is now happening with the crossbow on up.

This exactly
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rebelyell on February 17, 2016, 11:57:52 pm
In strat archer are currently super strong.
Good archers have always that crazy good kdr when best melee players get  like 2 or 3 kdr.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on February 18, 2016, 12:01:17 am
Today in the midst of battle I decided to reload my masterwork light crossbow... My target had already been spotted.. A lone heavily armoured couch lancer trotting around at the other end of the field, unaware of being in my sights.. Like an ape it rode in a cricle until a few minutes later it had spotted me... Woosh the armoured beast sped toward me and in normal circumstances I'd just about have my reticule shrunk enough to fire off an anti-couch bolt.. But no, after all this time I was still bent over reloading my masterwork light crossbow, like a frail old man trying to touch his toes.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 18, 2016, 12:13:59 am
Balancers don't know that slow reload speed on XBOW increases the Shoot delay speed as well.

Noob balancers.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Mr_Sativa on February 18, 2016, 01:25:47 am
Played a few hours with my xbow 1h pole guy, 21/21 120 crossbow, 95/95 or so in 1h and polearm with 101 in both tot so to say. 6 shield etc.
He normally uses MW Crossbow and MW Bolts. Also hunting/light crossbow depending on what happening and if I go on horse back.

My input so far for you guys is: the reload speed is a tad overdone on hunting crossbow; personally I find it rather interesting and immersive with the longer reloads on the other ones - do know though I didn't try out heavy crossbow or the arbalest. The accuracy and missile speed is funky, but a thing that is totally off is this you reload the crossbow, crosshairs go down, you release to fire, you can even right click, and re-size the crosshairs and the shot will STILL go off about 1.5-2s after I have released it for the shot.

Sucks I can't use my MW bow because you lowered the difficulty, so it's worthless now. Acc is super funky as well on the archers, I only tried though for 20 min or so. I could kill and aim (not with my MW "Longbow" but with a new bow I bought solely for higher diff), but it was different for sure.


Hope this helps.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Algarn on February 18, 2016, 02:36:16 am
Quote from: Rebelyell on February 17, 2016, 11:57:52 pm
In strat archer are currently super strong.
Good archers have always that crazy good kdr when best melee players get  like 2 or 3 kdr.

Balancing cRPG accordingly to strat battles was a terrible thing to do, is a terrible thing to do, and will remain a terrible thing to do. Particularly true when you know what kind of equipment player use normally and what they use currently on strat (40 is the maximum armor value you can find most of the time).
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yeldur on February 18, 2016, 03:23:13 am
Quote from: Rebelyell on February 17, 2016, 11:57:52 pm
In strat archer are currently super strong.
Good archers have always that crazy good kdr when best melee players get  like 2 or 3 kdr.

That's probably down to green lightsabers
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nebun on February 18, 2016, 03:24:01 am
its fun to have new bows, accuracy fcked and bad. Now its mostly luck. Even tho there are other advantages, i'd prefer before patch.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yeldur on February 18, 2016, 03:24:16 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on February 18, 2016, 12:13:59 am
Balancers don't know that slow reload speed on XBOW increases the Shoot delay speed as well.

Noob balancers.

Also this. Never knew this, but this.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 18, 2016, 04:15:28 am
Oh my god all the new bows. I can't. My brain just shuts down when I look at the bows shop page. There are too many stats and I can't remember what the old ones were and it's just a bunch of numbers with no meaning. I feel like a grandma staring at 10 different sized glass rectangles in the Apple store. What the hell are you kids doing bawgawd :shock:

I'm glad that I have alts for every class instead of one high level main with all my hours of xp poured into it. I would be really mad if my "one guy" couldn't do his fighty thing anymore. It's exciting that all this new stuff is getting pushed out with patches left and right, but it's making a two day break feel like I've been gone for 6 months.

Next thing I know, I'll log in and find out there are 7 new kinds of arrows...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 18, 2016, 04:18:54 am
also here are the translations from Japanese to English for the new Yumi varieties:

Nisun yumi -> dumpster bow

Yonsun yumi -> baby bow

Rokusun yumi -> pretty good bow

Hassun yumi -> *sniper rifle sound effect*
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nebun on February 18, 2016, 05:06:27 am
after some testing i've changed my mind - all is great :)

Those who want shootgun use top bows / those who want accuracy use shit bows. Main problem i guess for all ranged is to just trying to use to it
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: HappyPhantom on February 18, 2016, 06:48:58 am
24/21

Archery = 170
PD =            8

---

Still trying out the new bows.

I would ask we go back to old names though, or at least names that are more differentiated. This slight variation on the same, is bloody confusing.

Edit: I think Desire mentioned this - I feel like the change in missile speed and PD etc has affected the 3 years of judgement built to estimate where to shoot. Being high ping, I'd say I'm particularly susceptible to this, because I don't really rely on reticule for aiming (I can't actually aim it at ppl to hit them). It would be great if you could leave the original bows stats the same in this regard, and adjust the new bows appropriately around them.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: McKli_PL on February 18, 2016, 08:22:38 am
Quote from: Nebun on February 18, 2016, 05:06:27 am
after some testing i've changed my mind - all is great :)

Those who want shootgun use top bows / those who want accuracy use shit bows. Main problem i guess for all ranged is to just trying to use to it
for me buffing missile speed is much better than lowering acc, with a higher Pd trajectory is so great and a very hard to dodge, Dupre flash sale plox we need looms for testing!! :D
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Sagar on February 18, 2016, 10:52:43 am
Its fine. Get killed by xbow/bows just like before.
Maybe raise str requirement for bows - for stronger bow, your arm need to be strong enough to draw back your bowstring  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Paul on February 18, 2016, 12:37:33 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on February 18, 2016, 12:13:59 am
Balancers don't know that slow reload speed on XBOW increases the Shoot delay speed as well.

Noob balancers.

I think that's why we increased the specific anim duration instead in the past.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Penitent on February 18, 2016, 03:31:57 pm
Quote from: Penitent on February 17, 2016, 11:17:08 pm
I only play archer on an alt, so I don't feel like I have a lot of say -- but I do archery in RL, and some of these new bow names are dumb as hell. :)  Chief's bow?  CRPG is cool because the weapons and armor are based on historical examples.

There are real bow names you can use:

-Self-bow (in general, a bow made from one piece of wood)
-Flat bow (flat in cross section, unlike a longbow's "D" cross section for example. Common in the Americas, but used elsewhere.)
-Yew Bow (the best kind of wood for making long bows.  Common in continental Europe and England)
-Stick bow (a simple bow, made from a straight piece of wood)
-Sinew-backed bow (sinew increases the durability and draw strength of an all-wood bow)
-Recurve bow (a bow that curves at the tips, like the "bow" and "rus bow" do.

Let me expand on this a little bit more, because the bow names are bothering me.  :) 

A medieval longbow is not just a "bow that is long."  It refers to a specific bow, made of one piece of wood, that has a "D" shaped profile, and that flexes through the handle.  (there is no separate handle section that stays still when it is drawn -- the entire bow flexes, including the grip.) It's usually as long as the archer is tall (5-6 feet). We have 4 bows right now called "longbow" of some sort, and some of them just aren't longbows -- and this is kind of like calling the "side sword" a "broad sword."  It's silly.

On C-rpg.net, we have:
 the "longbow" -- but this isn't a proper long bow.  It has a flat cross section, and recurved tips.  It's also short.
We have the "hunting longbow" -- but this is clearly made up of several materials, has a distinct handle, and has greatly recurved tips.
We have the "war longbow" -- the only real long bow so far
We have the "Lord longbow" -- Look like a legit longbow with some flare

Suggestions:

-"Longbow" should be "self bow".  It's a simple bow.  The old name "bow" was apt as well.
-"Hunting Longbow" should be "recurve bow" or "sinew backed bow" or "reinforced bow"
-"War longbow" should be "longbow"
-"Lord Longbow" should be "war bow" or "yew longbow" or "english longbow"

This would make it a bit more palatable and fit in with the rest of the historically named weapons and armors. :)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Utrakil on February 18, 2016, 03:34:45 pm
^ + a lot
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Totally Not McDeath on February 18, 2016, 03:42:32 pm
I have an archer
Lvl 35
30/15
10 pd
10 ps
5 wm

I also have an xbow
18/24 arb build
6ps
6if
8ath
8wm
I have not played either character yet because if time restrictions but I already know that my arb build is scrapped. I also don't know which bow is worth it and I don't have the time to figure that out right now.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Úlfur on February 18, 2016, 03:56:17 pm
It's no use patcher don't care anyways.

Give me my looms back.

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=marketplacetrade&id=781252
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 18, 2016, 04:17:53 pm
Thanks for free respec. BACK TO PURE 2H WOOOOOOO
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: bagge on February 18, 2016, 05:05:38 pm
Why is everyone complaining? :?

Edit: About archery that is
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 18, 2016, 05:14:49 pm
Quote from: bagge on February 18, 2016, 05:05:38 pm
Why is everyone complaining? :?

Lower ranking xbows have been ruined
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 18, 2016, 06:30:35 pm
First things first: please give a respec to my heavy xbow user, ISIS_WIFEY. I can't even test the new stats due to increased requirement.

Second, my archer is 18/27, 6PD, 198WPF. I can't say for sure how much the patch changed my build because I JUST got +3 bodkins. I've been using +3 tatar arrows for like 2.5 years. My 6PD rus bow changed into 4PD, but I don't think that is too much of an issue. I'm not above the PD cap. If I was str archer with 9+ PD I would be very mad.

My aim reticule is still very tight, although I can't "hold the shot" as long as before. I think this is due to the PD change, since the +3 rokusan yumi (still 6PD req) I picked up during battle still held accuracy for a long time while I aimed. The increased arrow speed makes it much easier to land a shot in close to medium range, even when the target is actively trying to dodge your shot. Long range is very hard for me... I think I just need to "re-learn" my archery to adjust for the completely different arrow trajectories now.

Also I'm getting an absolute shitload of points on my archer now. I'm not getting more kills than before, just points and valor all over the place. Is it possible that the new bow stats had an effect on the ranged scoring system?

Quote from: njames89 on February 18, 2016, 05:14:49 pm
Lower ranking xbows have been ruined

Other people are saying they have better accuracy at lower WPF, with a higher "max" accuracy. I don't know if the extended trigger release time was on purpose or just due to decreasing overall speed for longer reload time, but it took me a long time to get used to that when I started using an arbalest way back in the day.

Crossbows and bows have been completely re-done. This is not a small stat adjustment. If these changes stay, I think that all ranged players should get a free heirloom exchange. A +3 item takes a long time to make. A respec helps you test out the new stats on your bow or crossbow, but it is no longer the weapon you spent those loom points on.

Overall I think it's cool that this was all reworked. It will take time for everyone to adjust to it, even after people get their respecs and loom up the new bow that they want. There's going to be a lot of whining and tears on the way there though. Players are set in their ways after years of only minor changes to ranged.

edit:To everyone that was bitching about archery accuracy after patch:

(click to show/hide)

People on EU1 refused to believe I had a tight reticule.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Richyy on February 18, 2016, 09:25:21 pm
NERF
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Algarn on February 19, 2016, 12:12:10 am
Quote from: WITCHCRAFT on February 18, 2016, 06:30:35 pm
First things first: please give a respec to my heavy xbow user, ISIS_WIFEY. I can't even test the new stats due to increased requirement.

Second, my archer is 18/27, 6PD, 198WPF. I can't say for sure how much the patch changed my build because I JUST got +3 bodkins. I've been using +3 tatar arrows for like 2.5 years. My 6PD rus bow changed into 4PD, but I don't think that is too much of an issue. I'm not above the PD cap. If I was str archer with 9+ PD I would be very mad.

My aim reticule is still very tight, although I can't "hold the shot" as long as before. I think this is due to the PD change, since the +3 rokusan yumi (still 6PD req) I picked up during battle still held accuracy for a long time while I aimed. The increased arrow speed makes it much easier to land a shot in close to medium range, even when the target is actively trying to dodge your shot. Long range is very hard for me... I think I just need to "re-learn" my archery to adjust for the completely different arrow trajectories now.

Also I'm getting an absolute shitload of points on my archer now. I'm not getting more kills than before, just points and valor all over the place. Is it possible that the new bow stats had an effect on the ranged scoring system?

Other people are saying they have better accuracy at lower WPF, with a higher "max" accuracy. I don't know if the extended trigger release time was on purpose or just due to decreasing overall speed for longer reload time, but it took me a long time to get used to that when I started using an arbalest way back in the day.

Crossbows and bows have been completely re-done. This is not a small stat adjustment. If these changes stay, I think that all ranged players should get a free heirloom exchange. A +3 item takes a long time to make. A respec helps you test out the new stats on your bow or crossbow, but it is no longer the weapon you spent those loom points on.

Overall I think it's cool that this was all reworked. It will take time for everyone to adjust to it, even after people get their respecs and loom up the new bow that they want. There's going to be a lot of whining and tears on the way there though. Players are set in their ways after years of only minor changes to ranged.

edit:To everyone that was bitching about archery accuracy after patch:

(click to show/hide)

People on EU1 refused to believe I had a tight reticule.

Try a longbow (even the first one) with maxed out PD, the result will be far from that screen. Any bow that isn't a high tier bow has superior accuracy compared to them (particularly the lord long bow), while not really losing anything upon damage, and requiring less difficulty to max the PD bonus, allowing for you to go for an hybrid, or to go for more WM.

PS : the missile speed buff is also retarded on bows, I can't believe this is even close to RL speed, the arrows are just travelling within half a second to a target at mid range.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Kadeth on February 19, 2016, 01:45:19 am
I don't know what happened and I can't read this entire thread right now, but please tell me 1 wpf xbow is no longer viable?
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 19, 2016, 03:58:54 am
Quote from: Kadeth on February 19, 2016, 01:45:19 am
I don't know what happened and I can't read this entire thread right now, but please tell me 1 wpf xbow is no longer viable?

As of right now 65-85 wpf is the equivalent of 190 wpf prepatch: higher accuracy means lower wpf being more viable. AKA, currently 1 WPF is equivalent to about 100-115 wpf pre-patch.
It's being worked on so hopefully fix soon.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: XyNox on February 19, 2016, 11:44:37 am
Can you guys at least up the accuracy value for MW bows to ( damage gain ) + 1 instead of the current ( damage gain ) - 1  as a "hotfix" before things will be sorted out ? So instead of losing accuracy when looming you would actually gain accuracy, as you would expect when improving a weapon via looms.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nagasoup on February 19, 2016, 03:52:06 pm
REVERT THE PATCH

Please, its not even about tweaking the stats at this point. This whole change to ranged was totally uncalled for, its not a tweak, you overhauled the whole system. It's like you sink all these hours into this mod, all your characters and looms, learning all the ins and outs of your playstyle, your builds, all the subtleties of ranged combat... and then the devs just shit all over it.

If you're going to nerf ranged, nerf it, but don't change the whole system so drastically and so suddenly. Nobody asked for this kind of change. It's just like SURPRISE! Your looms? Your build? fuck you get new looms, make a new build noob. All our experience, the muscle memory we built, all our familiarity with this mod we've grown to love over the years? Fuck you, new mod, relearn everything because we say so.  :mad:

When you do this kind of change so suddenly and without good reason its just going to piss off a lot of people. People still play this mod after so many years because we've grown attached to our characters and our playstyles, and when you force people to change everything at once a lot of them will just stop playing.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Mr.K. on February 19, 2016, 04:27:13 pm
Level 36, 30/18, 10PD, 140 archery. Masterwork Rokusun Yumi + Masterwork Bodkin Arrows.

Tried a bit of ranged gameplay yesterday and accuracy seems perfectly fine to me, even though it's not a pure archer build. It's slightly less accurate than before the patch, but still accurate enough. Damage is still a bit too high imo and for sure too high against cavalry. While playing on my cav character fake-Fuma took 70+% of my Arabian horses HP with one hit with the new 7req bow with a body shot. That's even higher than it was before this patch when the highest damage I received was around 50-55% on body hits.

The biggest issue right now is the missile speed. It's waaay too high making it even easier to just spam arrows at head height and wish for the best. And I wasn't even using one of the highest missile speed bows. Iirc the original Yumi was something like 38 missile speed (?) which always seemed far more realistic than any other bow. Now we're up to 54. If you want archery to require skill you need a lower speed so you have to lead in your targets and know where the pink dildo is landing.

Archery still needs a nerf so we don't all have to play boring shielderbots all the time.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rando on February 19, 2016, 04:48:35 pm
Notice how all the ranged complaining are furries/other types of sexual deviants (swedish, etc). Just saying.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Kansuke on February 19, 2016, 06:10:12 pm
Hunting crossbow and Light crossbow are completely useless because of the new reloading speed. Every crossbow should have it's own purpose, right now everyone is going for crossbow or arbalest...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 19, 2016, 10:58:58 pm
Quote from: Kansuke on February 19, 2016, 06:10:12 pm
Hunting crossbow and Light crossbow are completely useless because of the new reloading speed. Every crossbow should have it's own purpose, right now everyone is going for crossbow or arbalest...

Arb and crossbow where hit just as hard if not harder both completely different and useless in comparison to before.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yeldur on February 19, 2016, 11:41:29 pm
After playing with a longbow, there is definitely a noticeable change in the accuracy, BUT, About 68% of the time I can land a shot from long distance, from up close, well, that's a different story.

Overall I don't think archers have changed all that much, just takes a bit more luck to guide your shots now.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: LEKIS on February 20, 2016, 12:54:53 am
(click to show/hide)

The round after:
(click to show/hide)


3rd round, getting visibly angry:
(click to show/hide)

Cheatknight really likes the new patch, I've heard
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: The Wicked Reach on February 20, 2016, 03:31:11 am
Archer and Arbalester:
Review:

Archer: 24/21 8PD wpf archery 170
Can't tell difference for accuracy,
Dmg for my MW Bow (name pre-patch) is noticeably lower...the difficulty was reduced from 4 to 2?? My MW Tatar is now better quality...and yet the Bow still takes 2 slots?

Arbalester: 18/30, wpf xbow 170
Pre-patch my Arb's accuracy was terrible.  Now? No idea, don't want to respec and lose xp (my main).
Crossbows take a ridiculous amount of time to load, don't seem to do much dmg, but accuracy is better.

Suggestions:

Archery:
Please fix MW Bow's stats:  I'd like it to be stronger than the 1-slotters, but faster loading (slightly less damaging) than the Stronger Long Bows.  Don't forget, difficulty factors in max PD (Difficulty of bow + 4)

Crossbows:
More Damage pls, less loading time.  If I'm taking a minute to load, I'd like my shots to count.   Don't mind raising the difficulty a bit for all xbows, but 6 pts is too much, so suddenly...I'm thinking 3.  I'd gladly make the exchange for more accuracy. 

Imo, the xbows dmg/loading speed should be proportional to bows dmg/loading speed.  Accuracy + projectile speed should be proportional to loading speed for all range weapons, with a parabolic effect on archery, ofc.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 20, 2016, 05:31:03 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Bryggan on February 20, 2016, 09:05:02 am
What the hell are people talking about?  This is a HUUUUGE archery buff.  One arrow takes 90% of my courser's health.  And every bloody arrow stings like hell.  Before it was a mere annoyance, usually hitting you right before you smacked that inattentive guy form behind.

Why was the change needed?  Were there not enough ranged in the game?  Last time I recall there were still shit loads of archers in every battle.  The nerfs never deter the people who pew pew.

While I have always been pro-archery, I'm giving up on my cav.  Within seconds I'm dead.

From now on I'm trolling with a polearmer in a fur coat.  All I want is strat ticks now, not to die to two arrows before I even get a gallop up.

PS: I swear this is my first bitch post
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rhalzo on February 20, 2016, 10:59:58 am
From seeing what most people here are saying, you'd be doing a great job if you just put the things back how they were before.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: En_Dotter on February 20, 2016, 02:32:21 pm
Quote from: Bryggan on February 20, 2016, 09:05:02 am
What the hell are people talking about?  This is a HUUUUGE archery buff.  One arrow takes 90% of my courser's health.

The damage to horses has nothing to do with archery. Its retarded devs that gave bonus to every ranged weapon against cav.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Sellka on February 20, 2016, 03:51:17 pm
Quote from: njames89 on February 20, 2016, 05:31:03 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Except I did cav :P
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 20, 2016, 09:42:31 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on February 20, 2016, 12:08:15 pm
You can tell from the fact that there are no archers or ranged left in server.

I was playing last night and literally everyone was melee. Also arrows did no damage.

/sarcasm

What a shocker, people are still trying to play the class they enjoy? Clearly needs more nerfs.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Gurnisson on February 21, 2016, 12:02:36 am
Archers are still a plague on eu1, at least
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Guray on February 21, 2016, 12:40:27 am
Quote from: Gurnisson on February 21, 2016, 12:02:36 am
Archers are still a plague on eu1, at least
well nerf harder then. Untill they cant do damage .
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Gurnisson on February 21, 2016, 12:47:34 am
Quote from: Guray on February 21, 2016, 12:40:27 am
well nerf harder then. Untill they cant do damage .

or not
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yeldur on February 21, 2016, 01:43:19 am
I know how to solve all of our problems

Step 1: Nerf everything to 0 damage
Step 2: Re-name C-RPG to K-RPG (Kids-RPG)
Step 3: Enforce a rule that you can't attack anyone because that's mean
Step 4: Force the entire server to join the Krems clan
Step 5: Spam animations until everyone on the server has hung themselves due to the fact that they have been driven insane.
Step 6: K-RPG was never Kids-RPG. It was always Krems-RPG.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yuang on February 21, 2016, 01:51:31 am
The CHN server file is not the same as NA&EU. The same bow, the same armor, CHN damage is higher than that of NA&EU over 1/3. Maybe the CHN server needs a copy of the NA&EU file.

http://forum.melee.org/crpg-technical-problems/there-is-a-big-problem-in-chn-server/
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yuang on February 21, 2016, 01:56:29 am
Make Viking round shield to be Range Buster!  :twisted: I think it's used to stop the arrows, not to fight. :!:

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/make-viking-round-shield-0-difficulty/
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Sparvico on February 21, 2016, 03:44:18 am
(click to show/hide)

Little late to this thread due to a forum mute, but I think one of the main problems with this patch is that it traded accuracy for damage in a bad way. Before the update you had to invest at least 130, better if 150, WPF in xbows to get really good accuracy with Heavy and Arb. The damage was pretty extreme, and the reload time made the rate of fire somewhat faster than perhaps it should be. That combined with the low difficulty made it easy to hybrid melee-xbow and be decent at both.

Now you only need 80-120 wpf to get really good accuracy, but the damage is much worse and the reload time is insane. It may seem like you have to reduce the amount of wpf needed because the strength requirement was increased, but in fact it should be slightly different. Leaving the damage where it was pre-patch (not hotfix), increasing the str requirement, increasing the reload animation a little bit, and decreasing the accuracy would have made crossbows something you need to invest quite a bit of skill in. You'd need to take more str to use the thing, and just as much agi to get the wpf. Leaving you with very little for melee skills. This would make them similar to bows in regards to building for max heavy or arb damage, and to differentiate them they would have much slower rate of fire with better accuracy than bows.

The main complaint, that I always heard, was not that crossbows we're incredibly good ranged, but that they were decent ranged without any harsh melee drawbacks.

Basically this mod has spent the last 3 years steadily reducing the effectiveness of ranged/melee hybrids. In order to really get the most out of melee you need to not put any stats in PD or PT, in order to get the most out of bows or throwing you need to do the same in reverse. The black sheep was always crossbows. This patch has made it slightly more necessary to not hybrid melee and crossbows, though it is still possible, but it has also totally gutted the crossbows effectiveness.

Alternatively you could simply make crossbows require PD and you'd put them in the same place as bows in regards to possible builds (having heavy at 6 PD, arb at 7 ect. ) without really needing to nerf the rest of their stats to much at all. maybe a bit less damage and a tiny bit more accuracy, just to make them feel different from bows. Apparently some idiot turk hard-coded xbows to not take PD.


Also my build pre-patch was:

Strength:18
Agility:24
One Handed:115
Crossbow:152
Weapon Master:8
Athletics:8
Iron Flesh:5
Power Strike:6


Edit: In regards to the bow changes I'm actually quite happy. They really got a buff due to the lazer like missile speed and draw speed. That said the new names are just garbage. Only two of the named longbows are actually longbows, and the composite bows are too similar in appearance and name to tell easily which is which. I get that you were probably trying to standardize the naming system for organizational purposes, but it really really sounds dumb.

Post edit edit: Fuck I have a lot of useless shit to say. The one final thing for this thread however is that perhaps in the future you should consider if something really needs a major stat re-balance before investing all this time in it. When I play melee I despise range, but when I play range I miss most of my shots. Basically ranged was already in a pretty good way (except for the hybrid ability of the xbow), and I can't help but feel like the balancers time could have been better spent getting armor and melee weapons stats in order. For instance the lombardic sword versus the swedish sword
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yuang on February 21, 2016, 07:12:50 am
When the shield behind the back, why can not stop the range? That is not reasonable!
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Guray on February 21, 2016, 07:37:51 am
Quote from: Yuang on February 21, 2016, 07:12:50 am
When the shield behind the back, why can not stop the range? That is not reasonable!
They have disabled it.

Use this part of the forum to let them see your ideas and suggestions please.

http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/


lol
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 21, 2016, 08:03:05 am
Quote from: Rico on February 17, 2016, 05:04:08 pm
Except this patch is not a nerf. At least not for crossbows. All implications of the patch can be mitigated by going for Hunting Crossbow, Light Crossbow or Crossbow instead of the previously popular Heavy Crossbow and Arbalest, and aiming for the head instead of the body (which is possible now because missile speed and accuracy are high).
I take back what I said. Looking at my kills now compared to pre-patch, it is pretty evident that headshot kills have been and still are rather rare. Before the patch, I used to be forgetful about torso shot kills because they are less spectacular than headshots, without realizing that the vast majority of my kills were not headshots. But now that torso shot damage is almost ignoreable, headshots on wounded targets or low-tier helmet users are the only reliable way to get ranged kills. I observed it is quite difficult to keep up my pre-patch performance, and now have to adapt to higher hybridization into melee (and actually wear armor, yuck) to get the same results. My intuition may be distorted by the changed missile speed, which I haven't learned to properly aim with yet.

The patch has redefined my crossbow gameplay experience and it will take time to get used to it. I do however think it is too early to draw a final conclusion when it comes to how to evaluate the patch as a whole. Raylin's balance concept has so far been coherent and homogeneous. On the bright side, it's unlikely there will be any semi-hidden OP weapons or clear best-practice builds in the long run. However, the patch has also removed some diversity that may have to be added later on, i.e. stats that make weapons actually feel different in usage, not only in cosmetics. For example, the old Hunting Crossbow is now completely different, largely eliminating the shotgun'n'run playstyle used by Weren and others. Another problem is that numerically proportional trade-offs in the stats translate to non-proportional trade-offs in the game itself. For example, current crossbows gain +6 pierce damage and +0.2 weight if you go up along the tiers. With armor's damage absorption, the first couple of +6s aren't very notable because the target will still survive with minimal HP loss. But for higher tier crossbows, once a critical armor penetration threshold is reached, the +6s count a lot more. That's why I asked Raylin to compensate for this disadvantage of low-tier crossbows by making them lighter. The weight decrease of 0.2 is not notable enough.

Lastly, about the sudden nature of the changes: I had a bad feeling about the balance experiment at the beginning. However, Raylin emphasized that it is an experiment, and as such revertible if needed. Let's give it a chance and see whether cRPG may not become better thanks to the changes, after all. That naturally requires waiting until everything is implemented, and testing.

And since people have been asking me stuff, perhaps I should mention that I'm not actively involved in balance decisions although I'm handing out respecs and my name keeps popping up in the patch changelogs. It's mainly item stuff I'm doing. That of course neither means I blindly agree with everything Raylin is doing, nor think ill of him because of the large scale of the changes. I'm affected like everyone else, but I'm patient until everything is in place and the big picture becomes apparent. I hope others are doing the same and keep critique constructive.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Sparvico on February 21, 2016, 09:43:36 am
Quote from: Rico on February 21, 2016, 08:03:05 am
Let's give it a chance and see whether cRPG may not become better thanks to the changes, after all.


Don't generally cherry pick stuff out of a long text to comment on, as context is important, but I generally agree with the rest of the sentiment in your post. The quoted bit however I am not sure about. Generally speaking I'm apt to approach a "if it isn't broken don't fix it" mentality. Or in the case of this game, if it isn't measurably overpowered (talking average KDRs of users, average Kills Per Round), probably leave it be.

I'm also very curious to know what exactly goes into balance discussions nowadays. I've always been very very wary of balance that happens based on feeling or general consensus as opposed to statistical analysis. Often balance problems seem much worse than they are because we have a tendency to remember the 25% of times the archer domed us, and not the 75% where their shot just totally missed (speaking as both a melee player that regularly dodged shots, and an archer that missed more often than not).
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Mr.K. on February 21, 2016, 11:49:08 am
Picking this from the other topic.

Quote from: Sparvico on February 21, 2016, 09:47:31 am
Generally I agree, but having played archer right before and now after the patch I have to say the increased missile speed is making it much easier to land headshots and lead targets at longer ranges. The less time the projectile takes to travel to the target the greater accuracy it will have, as accuracy is only half a stat of the weapon, the other half comes from the hand of the user.

This. Actual accuracy isn't that great anymore, though it's most likely still unrealistically high, but using the Rokusun Yumi it feels like it's near perfect gameplaywise now. Long distance shots can fail if I don't hold the proper time, but it's still accurate enough to make people who actually aim better than us that don't. Dropping the missile speed to about half with everything else staying the same should fix most problems. It would bring skill back to archery and also allow people to better avoid the projectiles they actually see. The other thing that needs a fix is the damage against cavalry. According to En Dotter all projectiles get a bonus against cavalry which is absurd and hopefully devs will look into it.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Pandor_Archer on February 21, 2016, 12:17:22 pm
Archery become easy mode coz of high missile speed. Thats why half of the server is an archers now.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Pandor_Archer on February 21, 2016, 12:19:35 pm
im actualy glad that it hapend, horsefuckers gona be shoted down.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Krave on February 21, 2016, 12:34:33 pm
What? Horses had paper-like durability before and now you're telling me it's even easier to shoot us down :/
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: sF_Guardian on February 21, 2016, 02:36:28 pm
Even I can be near or on top the scoreboard with archer now. Considering I've never played archer except for maybe half a year back in 2010 in native and had a long break before starting to play cRappyG like 2 weeks ago that's a bit too much imo.
The missile speed just makes it way to easy to pew pew.

As everyone knows I'm fuckin bad at this game and can't even beat Ody or Larvae in a duel...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Prpavi on February 21, 2016, 05:04:06 pm
Quote from: Pandor_Archer on February 21, 2016, 12:17:22 pm
Archery become easy mode coz of high missile speed. Thats why half of the server is an archers now.

Quite funny to hear coming form DRZ stack...
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rebelyell on February 21, 2016, 06:55:30 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on February 21, 2016, 05:04:06 pm
Quite funny to hear coming form DRZ stack...
they are honest about that after all

Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: jtobiasm on February 22, 2016, 01:27:18 pm
What are all these shit bows?

Which one is the Rus bow?
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Nightingale on February 22, 2016, 01:34:59 pm
Quote from: jtobiasm on February 22, 2016, 01:27:18 pm
What are all these shit bows?

Which one is the Rus bow?

Hunting Longbow.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: jtobiasm on February 22, 2016, 01:35:31 pm
Quote from: Nightingale on February 22, 2016, 01:34:59 pm
Hunting Longbow.

thank you
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Yarl on February 22, 2016, 01:56:29 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on February 21, 2016, 05:04:06 pm
Quite funny to hear coming form DRZ stack...
We always had a lot of archers
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 22, 2016, 07:41:02 pm
Ranged in general was fine pre-patch. Now it is impossible to dodge an arrow. Going from nearly never getting shot, to struggling to avoid getting hit per round isnt so nice. Archers are definitely topping scoreboards now.

Id say revert and leave it like that.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Sparvico on February 22, 2016, 10:09:30 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on February 22, 2016, 07:41:02 pm
Ranged in general was fine pre-patch. Now it is impossible to dodge an arrow. Going from nearly never getting shot, to struggling to avoid getting hit per round isnt so nice. Archers are definitely topping scoreboards now.

Id say revert and leave it like that.

Can confirm, I really couldn't hit people outside of 25 meters before, now I'm getting at least 50 points per map. It's just super easy to lead shots.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rebelyell on February 22, 2016, 10:34:38 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on February 22, 2016, 07:41:02 pm
Ranged in general was fine pre-patch. Now it is impossible to dodge an arrow. Going from nearly never getting shot, to struggling to avoid getting hit per round isnt so nice. Archers are definitely topping scoreboards now.

Id say revert and leave it like that.
I see you played enough, funny how hoplite can defend from them right?
No one can defend from them, that missile speed is way to good. No on can doge that they dont really have to lead shot because It flys flat.

Just get shot and shot and shot.


pew pew pew pew
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Bronto on February 22, 2016, 10:42:40 pm
You've got to lower missile speed on bows. It's ridiculous. Back in the day, 41 was top for longbow, you've got bows now in the 50's.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rebelyell on February 22, 2016, 10:45:09 pm
I am making my collection of headshots now,
Will make nice portfolio of arrows in my head.

nebun is the worst because I can do whatever and he will put that arrow in my fce no matter what.
Much fun.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: matt2507 on February 22, 2016, 11:10:25 pm
Quote from: Bronto on February 22, 2016, 10:42:40 pm
You've got to lower missile speed on bows. It's ridiculous. Back in the day, 41 was top for longbow, you've got bows now in the 50's.

Should be in next patch but Dupre is a bit busy atm.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rebelyell on February 22, 2016, 11:16:26 pm
Quote from: matt2507 on February 22, 2016, 11:10:25 pm
Should be in next patch but Dupre is a bit busy atm.
tell me what difrence we should see there?
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 23, 2016, 12:04:10 am
Quote from: Rebelyell on February 22, 2016, 10:34:38 pm
I see you played enough, funny how hoplite can defend from them right?
No one can defend from them, that missile speed is way to good. No on can doge that they dont really have to lead shot because It flys flat.

Just get shot and shot and shot.


pew pew pew pew

Gave the patch a fair chance, but clearly something is off. Hoplite is so shit in melee now so whenever im forced to ditch the shield i get shot, and with current lags playing 1h is unbearable.

Arrows are basically instant hit, having an enemy between yourself and the archer usually blocks out opportunities to get shot, but now even that doesnt work because the archer needs but a split second to get the shot in.


Missile speed too strong
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Sparvico on February 23, 2016, 02:03:35 am
Quote from: matt2507 on February 22, 2016, 11:10:25 pm
Should be in next patch but Dupre is a bit busy atm.

Let's just revert the ranged changes in this patch and put together a team of ranged/melee players that really know the underlying mechanics and will look objectively at numbers so we can have a less "lets try it and... oops didn't work" approach.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 28, 2016, 04:01:26 pm
Quote from: Sparvico on February 21, 2016, 09:43:36 am
Generally speaking I'm apt to approach a "if it isn't broken don't fix it" mentality. Or in the case of this game, if it isn't measurably overpowered (talking average KDRs of users, average Kills Per Round), probably leave it be.

I think most if not all will agree to this.

However, we don't have statistical data on kills by weapon type, class or build. It's a shame because the server logs generate this data and all that's needed is an algorithm which processes it and puts it into an understandable layout. It should not be too difficult to make it for a somewhat experienced coder, I guess it's possible using Perl RegEx.

Such a thing could drastically improve balance decisions, and it would no longer be subjective what is broken and what is not.

But right now the greater problem we have is that server logs aren't updating.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Eskil on February 28, 2016, 07:27:40 pm
I play an archer, I do not like the patch. I hope everything will return as it was before! I like my old bow (longbow), with its 106 accuracy and damage 30  :cry:
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: njames89 on February 28, 2016, 08:01:03 pm
I think if anything the release glitch on the lower crossbows should be removed.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 28, 2016, 09:15:35 pm
Quote from: njames89 on February 28, 2016, 08:01:03 pm
I think if anything the release glitch on the lower crossbows should be removed.

They said that was an accident, and someone (Paul I think?) said in ye olden dev days they adjusted the animations when changing crossbow stats to prevent this.

So it will be fixed. But when?

Soontm
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: the real god emperor on February 29, 2016, 09:15:02 am
I'd like to make a newer review.

I still like the Crossbow changes, now it is skill based, you can't do good when you spam body shots.

About archery;
Increased missile speed means shots are landed easier than before, that caused lots of people to become archers, even though they have no experience, they are doing good because the patch made archery luck based, regardless of your aiming skills.
And the amount of archers is so overwhelming, you literally can't hide because there is always one behind you. Imo class distribution should be top priority and banner balance as second.
I always say "get a shield" but a shield is useless without its ridiculous ghost protection and archers in every corner.
Plus to that, Warchief composite bow is the most accurate bow and the missile speed is enormous, it is basically a small arbalest.
And you didn't remove Elegant Bronze Long Bows yet, people are using it creating an unfair item gap between them and others.
Plus to that, now that horses almost get one shot from arrows, there is no real counter for archery in game.Except crossbows, but you literally can't show your head for more than one second.

For Strategus, it is far worse than EU1. Imagine half of a 50 people team is using bows and shooting at you from an upper hill, you only have hunting crossbows to counter them.

Please reduce the missile speed and increase the accuracy, that will make people who switched to archer because it is easy will quit and remaining archers will have good aiming skills.
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on February 29, 2016, 12:01:42 pm
Quote from: WITCHCRAFT on February 28, 2016, 09:15:35 pm
But when?
Soontm
In this case SoonTM denotes the moment when the compiler works again, which should happen around Dec'2010
Title: Re: [Feedback] Archery / Xbow feedback thread
Post by: Rico on March 21, 2016, 10:25:16 pm
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/we-are-reverting/msg1214483/#msg1214483