cRPG

cRPG => Scene Editing => Topic started by: Teeth on August 04, 2014, 05:15:16 pm

Title: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on August 04, 2014, 05:15:16 pm
Battle map rotation overhaul



Apparently the battle map rotation is shit again and I decided to get the community to provide the input for fixing it. Most likely a fool's errand as map preferences are insanely diffused, but in any case I won't have to shoulder the blame alone. This thread will be open for input for about two weeks or longer if you guys are lazy, after which I will commit the new map rotation. Battle rotations are shared between NA and EU so wherever you're from, please provide input.

Current map rotation
(click to show/hide)

I understand that many of you won't exactly know what name fits to what map, but apparently map names have been fixed now, so if you press QMD when playing a map, it will show you the correct name. Please note that QMU and QMD serve no other function whatsoever, basically since forever, and are not valid ways of providing input.



How you can help

Below are some guidelines to do suggestions for the map rotation. Follow these to provide specific and clear input. Saying add better maps does not help. Saying add good old maps does not help. Saying remove town maps does not help. I will not let this thread turn into a festering shit-hole and I will aggressively moderate it. Please follow the instructions below so you can provide helpful and clear input that I can use. Any post that does not follow these guidelines or comments on a pending change, will be removed.

You can fill this thread with as much shit as you want though. I need it to stay up.
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/battle-map-rotation-overhaul-community-input-required!/new/#new

Removing a map
(click to show/hide)

Adding a new map
(click to show/hide)

Adding a map that has been in the rotation during the past two years
(click to show/hide)

Adding Native village maps
(click to show/hide)

Adjusting a map
(click to show/hide)

Please upvote or downvote suggestions made by players if you agree or disagree with their proposed change.



Approved changes

These are changes I am currently planning to do. All of these are open for discussion, so if you heavily disagree, speak up with clear arguments why a change should not happen. I'll try to add screenshots of the maps as much as I can, so everybody understands what the maps are.

To remove
(click to show/hide)

To add
(click to show/hide)

To adjust
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on August 04, 2014, 05:15:26 pm
Reserved
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Algarn on August 04, 2014, 06:16:19 pm
Remove the map called "Screaming trees".  Don't got any screen shot, but it's the one with a dense forest, with a central tree, encircled by rocks.

This map is a true clusterfuck, both for archers and cavs, and I hope it's enough to get it removed.

EDIT : For those who don't see which map I'm talking about, here is a screen, which shows you a map (couldn't take it in spec mode).
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Molly on August 05, 2014, 12:33:27 am
A comeback of some of the 2010/11 maps would be nice...
I don't know names and describing would take up too much space and time but I'm sure you remember some of them.
They don't have to be really well made or anything, I'm sure nostalgia will work its magic anywa. :D
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Unwilling_Villain on August 05, 2014, 02:35:57 am
Remove Pueblo Village if it is still there.

Add Arena.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 05, 2014, 05:53:51 pm
All I'm saying about the "enclosed" maps is that if we're going to continue playing siege maps on the battle server, maybe one or two actual battle maps (aka random plains, no buildings) would be able to be played as well.  The maps where you have to use terrain and geography only as tactics, not able to camp behind buildings, were always the most fun to play, and the only maps where you actually see people relying on their teammates to survive and win. 

If we have to put up with 50% of the maps being "town/castle" siege style maps, then maybe we could play 1 or 2 random plains in the map list. 
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on August 05, 2014, 06:32:43 pm
Please don't re-add Native Village. It is unbalanced, archers and crossbowmen just get on the roofs and then one or two fatty plate men can guard the roofs and that team has it in the bag. It's just not a very fun map, the dynamic is pretty much the same every time. It's also a horrible map for cavalry, and the attacking team inevitably splits up and enters the village in three different ways because people don't work together, leading the attacking team to be even more decimated. I've already played that map so many times in this mod, and I never enjoyed it before.

I would also say don't add Sandi Boush, but that is only because if I were to see that picture and be asked to guess which server it was getting added to, I would have said NA_2 not NA_1.

Happy to see you're removing Prison Riot, that map is just an inevitable wait to see which players finally realize the fight is happening in the middle. The room with the water and the platforms is really, really lame. Nobody likes being effortlessly nudged to their death with a no damage hit by a 30-str polearm who shoots you for 10 feet.

Screaming Trees is fun as a challenge (I'm cavalry), but it is objectively the biggest clusterfuck map on the rotation. I don't know if I would want it removed, or kept on. I feel pretty ambivalent about it. It gives pretty much all classes a fair cut, teams have to stick together to win, every class has to be using high levels of awareness to not get piked by the guy hiding behind the tree, or knifed in the back by the peasant running behind you as you play archer. The downside would be the FPS drop for people whos computers are basically toasters with a hard drive added, the frustration of getting ganked and not being able to see where your team is, the frustration of CONSTANTLY having to avoid getting reared on rocks, trees, logs, etc

Also remove whatever the fuck this map is: you literally cannot play cavalry on it because the two sets of stairs connecting the upper and lower portions of the map cannot be ridden up. Also the team on the lower set of the map always goes directly to their left and up the first set of stairs, charging the upper teams spawn, because thats their closest route to the enemy. The top team however always fucking splits up, so half of them run headfirst into the full bottom team and get fucking destroyed, and the other half go to the left and fuck around for about 1-1.5 minutes, until it is their turn to also get fought by the entire bottom team. It's shit. visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I don't know its name fucking deal with it.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on August 07, 2014, 05:13:03 pm
Horseshoe Canyon - Remove it because it causes severe 'lag' issues. I get 120 fps on it and it feels like I have 20. Every time it comes up in rotation people complain about it.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on August 07, 2014, 08:45:12 pm
Even though Screaming Trees has so much foliage, that's one of the reasons why I would say it's well balanced for each class. Taking that away will do one of two things, turn it into a cav/ranged map or cause team stomps by balancing all the ranged on one team (which makes them lose because the map is so small.)
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Nordwolf on August 08, 2014, 02:49:33 am
Some links I gathered while going through the old map submission thread, maybe I'm unaware of some issues with them, but they don't look worse then the current maps.

http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-submissions-for-official-servers/msg201960/#msg201960 - Don't remember playing it, looks nice.
http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-rhodok-city/ - Same
http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-submissions-for-official-servers/msg705927/#msg705927 - I haven't ever seen this map on servers, don't see anything wrong with it, the ground is not too steep and has enough space to maneuver. Maybe not too cav friendly, but not more then many maps like Nord Town and such.
http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-submissions-for-official-servers/msg728601/#msg728601 << Homestead - haven't played it either, I've seen many maps like this in Vikingr and I liked them.

http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-submissions-for-official-servers/msg523915/#msg523915 << Attack on Caravan - I like how this map plays, it doesn't favour any class and has some nice tactics to it. You either go into intense melee at the bridge, go to the right of the map around the lake or try camping your side. For cav it also has a nice route on the left. Overally I only have good memories associated with it.
http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-submissions-for-official-servers/msg550208/#msg550208 - It may seem as a not the best map because of the bridge, but I like it because it has an intense melee-clash place near the bridge and all other classes have something to do too. Because bridge is large enough noone is trying to camp either side of it most of the time.


Remove/Edit:
Blue Forest - map pace encourages camping warfare with two *almost* opposing hills and a long bridge on top. If you're infantry you're usually frustrated because there is almost zero coverage from archers and cavalry, the only spot is the bridge, which isn't a very fun place to fight on.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2875/13230710353_1cb2c28539_b.jpg

Burning of the ships - not a very good pace, no defined areas of combat, very unbalanced flag positions. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3730/13231016574_28a36ae811_b.jpg

Some other feedback:
I really like Pueblo village even though I completely understand that it's not suited for cavalry. I love it either as an archer and as infantry, so once in a while cav can dismount imo :)

Screaming trees - I personally don't like playing this as infantry and ranged, but I absolutely love it as cavalry. I think what needs to be done is a bit of replanning of the map to remove circling and add more cover to footmen. Move the central stoney part to the side of the map, add more stone and cover there, maybe a bit of a terrain elevation/division. Also remove some trees around the stones to ephasis the feeling of it being somehow special and add more view to the more inf friendly part of the map.

Down by the river - I like this map, don't see anything wrong with it. Well I may be a bit biased towards cavalry on this one, but I played it with both infantry and archery and I liked it.

Trouble in the neighbourhood - remove all the square walls in the middle and leave the trees, and it will be great imo. Otherwise yes, remove it.
Also +1 to native village, great map and nowhere near unbalanced, just one small opinion - move in-village spawns just a little bit away closer to the wall so the teams have the same access to the outer roofs.

I may add more feedback in the future, but for now this's what I have.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on August 08, 2014, 05:42:33 pm
Maaseutu 2: Removed/Edited spawns. The first minute of the round has to be spent running to meet the other team. This causes flags often spawn much earlier than they should (the lack of combat spawns flags).
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 08, 2014, 06:28:38 pm
Rivendell - one team spawns on the high ground, the other spawns on the low ground.  The high ground is a top a pretty decent sized cliff and can just reign down ranged on the people below, it's a huge tactical advantage and makes the map lopsided (in theory at least). 
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on August 09, 2014, 03:11:16 am
Horseshoe Canyon - Remove it because it causes severe 'lag' issues. I get 120 fps on it and it feels like I have 20. Every time it comes up in rotation people complain about it.

This map gives me awful lag every time. It's a nice layout and I like the design, but it makes crpg throw a hissy fit to the point that everyone lags (even people with godly PCs).

Also I like Down by the River. I don't understand why people dislike it. Teams spawn on balanced ground, nice variation of thick forest/open areas and a few unique pieces of terrain here and there. It is visually pleasing as well. Rounds don't always play out the same way, there are multiple routes for both teams.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tzar on August 09, 2014, 08:57:16 am
Less siege maps, more battle maps plz.  :)

Also currently i feels like 93% of the map rotation is inf blob vs blob maps and 7% is balanced maps, that favors all classes an dont promote blob vs blob gameplay.

Fighting in 2 huge gang bang squads can be fun at times, but not all the freakin time.

Dont know the names of the maps, so can get you a list, but you know what where im going with this.

PS: Like your removal of the cirkel special olympics map!!  :wink:
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on August 09, 2014, 09:07:02 am
Well, the point is that this thread will be running for a while, so if you come accross one of those maps you'd rather not play, you press QMD to find out the map name and post a suggestion for removal here.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Prpavi on August 09, 2014, 11:35:34 am
remove Screaming trees

reason: play it once, quite obvious
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on August 09, 2014, 12:12:18 pm
Okay, I worked through the thread mostly, but not entirely. Removed posts that didn't contain concrete suggestions. Nothing personal, but I'm not looking for vague hints, try to translate your throughts into concrete feedback. Added changes:
- Remove Barriye
- Remove Pueblo Village
- Adjust Horseshoe
- Adjust Maaseutu 2
- Adjust River Village

Still gotta work through Nordwolf's suggestion and I am hesitant to do anything about Rivendell as I only played it once.

Down by the River:
Due to some comments pointing the other way, I am not sure if I want to remove Down by the River. I asked once on the server if people wanted this map in the rotation y or n, and I got a few n's. I personally think it's quite an alright map, good looker too. Can anyone who hates it try to explain why?

Screaming Trees:
I personally think this map plays well, both as cav and infantry, can't say anything about ranged. It does require sick awareness to survive with all the visual clutter.  I removed a bunch of vegetation and moved most of the rest either towards the inner circle of stones or away from it. So there is quite a clear channel around the center, with more cover in the center and the outskirts. I enlarged the rocks and bushes in the center to make sure it breaks the line of sight and provides some cover to prevent accross the map headshots. I think if cav, ranged and infantry pick their approach and positioning in a smart way, every class should be viable.

(click to show/hide)

Trouble in the Neighbourhood
I removed all the walls so it is now a very open map, with more playtime in the center area hopefully and less circling. Perhaps it is too open now. Perhaps I should do a version with about half the walls removed with more open spaces, tell me what you think.

(click to show/hide)



Old maps
Here are some old maps that are still ingame that I remember being decent and which I am willing to re-add. Please give your opinions which you would like back and why. Most of these are fairly open, for which there seems to be a preference currently

Peipus Lake
(click to show/hide)

Hun in the Sun
(click to show/hide)

Covered Crossing
(click to show/hide)

Citadel Ruins
(click to show/hide)

Domremy
(click to show/hide)

Two Rivers
(click to show/hide)

Tumulus
(click to show/hide)

Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on August 09, 2014, 12:19:00 pm
Keep the feedback and suggestions coming please.

A comeback of some of the 2010/11 maps would be nice...
I don't know names and describing would take up too much space and time but I'm sure you remember some of them.
They don't have to be really well made or anything, I'm sure nostalgia will work its magic anywa. :D
No I don't really, and maps usually get removed for a reason. Exceptions are village maps which have been violently and indiscriminately purged in 2011 because they made up 80% of the map rotation. Finding old maps  is as easy for you as it is for me, except that you don't have to check them, fix them and implement them. Sort the Scene Editing board threads by views and you should see many threads of big mappers or map collections, look through them and find me maps. Go to the Taleworlds mapmaking boards and find me maps. Go through the villages using the Strategus fief list and find me those few precious villages that you thought were great, I don't want the okay ones. We currently have about 8 villages thanks to Gnjus pointing a few out to me in the past, but there is room for more. Look through old screenshots and videos, if you find me a decent shot of an old map I might very well remember the name or where to find it.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Moncho on August 09, 2014, 01:07:09 pm
About old maps (my personal opinion):
As you mentioned, Peipus became a "rush the tower", same as that village map in which the mid high wooden tower was closed for exactly that reason.
I never liked Hun in the Sun, it was heaven for ranged around the stump area shooting down at the infantry huddling behind the huts.
Crossing I like. Nice clusterfuck at the upper bridge.
Celtic ruins had too many stairs to mini ruins, without them I would like it better, but it's a quite good map.
Domremy I loved. Not sure why it was removed.
Two rivers has a problem in that it is one way only, maybe a ford on the far end of the rivers could help with that.
Tumulus... meh. Personally didn't like the camp for a few minutes then charge the middle ruins dynamic it often was.
The last one I loved. I think it was Disembark or Landing or something like that. Nice hilly terrain, with sea team rushing left dunes and land team rushing the other dunes it was quite good.

About others:
I don't really like down by the river because of the difference in height, the lower team is always going uphill, and the forest + hills makes it quite easy to get lost. Last players alive tend to take a while to find because of this. But I would not remove it from the rotation.
Screaming trees: Please don't remove it, maybe changing the trees a bit is good, but I really like that one as a different type of map.

About Nordwolf's:
Tavern was a bit too small, better for EU4, but not sure it is big enough for EU1. Same with Homestead (second of Jarold's maps)
Peaceful mountains seems to have too many hill camping spots.
Grand arena seems a "rush the wall" map.
Attack on a caravan and Faubourgh I liked, not sure if it is in rotation now.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Nordwolf on August 09, 2014, 04:46:07 pm
>Moncho - I didn't post grand Arena, it's just there with another map I posted.
 Peacefull mountains - I thought the large hills are all unreachable, aren't they?
I like attack on caravan, it's not in rotation though. Fauborg I like too, and it's in rotation.

> Teeth

+++ {Peipus lake, Covered Crossing, Domremy, The last one}

Hun in The sun - I remember it was a very unbalanced map for infantry, those houses serve 0 purpose as defense from cavalry or archers. There are absolutely no obstacles like fences, shields, woodstacks etc. They are just a small maze (also because they look all the same) and everyone who is inside is easily manipulated by those outside.

Citadel ruins - personally I never really liked it because it doesn't have a good flow to it, but otherwise I see nothing wrong with adding it back.

Tumulus - I like the looks of it, though it may be a bit unfair towards infantry, I like it because of those awesome infantry charges when one team decides to go. And unlike most one camp charge another camp maps the defending side doesn't win most of the time.

Trouble in the neighbourhood - I like how it looks without walls. I don't think it's too open, trees provide decent coverade and I think blobs will still go along those, it's just that they'll see another team much better.

Screaming trees - changes sound nice, I guess we'll need to see how it works in battle now :)
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on August 09, 2014, 10:03:22 pm
Remove Bounty: It has terrible class balance. It's really just a valley, which should be obvious to anyone, that it's terrible for melee. Ranged get fairly advantageous spots to shoot from, cav don't really have to worry about anything at all, most of the terrain is flat, and there is very little (if any) debris they need to steer away from. So what you have, is a map that funnels melee into one spot to get eaten alive by both ranged and cav. This is the exact opposite of what we want.

It's best to balance through maps, than items or builds, if possible.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Viriathus on August 10, 2014, 12:11:47 am
i updated that map and moved the spawns... waiting for the patch, if it still doesnt play well remove it
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Grumbs on August 10, 2014, 01:24:48 am
Old maps
Here are some old maps that are still ingame that I remember being decent and which I am willing to re-add. Please give your opinions which you would like back and why. Most of these are fairly open, for which there seems to be a preference currently

Peipus Lake
(click to show/hide)

This map tended to have a few different ways for people to play it and didn't seem too bad. I'd like to play it again to see what I think now

Hun in the Sun
(click to show/hide)

I never liked this map - it seemed like there was no real tactics to how you fight on it, just ranged camp on the roofs and everyone else does some deathmatch

Covered Crossing
(click to show/hide)

This was fun sometimes, but it had too many good sniping spots for ranged. I would rather not have this in rotation

Citadel Ruins
(click to show/hide)

Lots of good memories from this map. Would like to see it back in rotation and see how people play it now. Both sides are viable imo. One spawns higher but the other has the big tower to shoot from

Domremy
(click to show/hide)

I liked playing this map. One sides ruins is a bit too dense and easily defended though. I think it needs some editing so its better balanced

Two Rivers
(click to show/hide)

This was quite fun, but it could do with some editing to tighten it up a bit. Some pointless areas but has quite an interesting design imo with people fighting around the tower in the middle

Tumulus
(click to show/hide)

Don't really like this map. If its an open map like that you shouldn't have such a big incentive to camp near the start. Less cover and people will push forward and fight. As it is its a bit too boring with little incentive to push to the other side

Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)

I like this map. Decent options for teams without too much emphasis on camping or pushing. Not great but certainly playable



My comments in bold
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Nordwolf on August 10, 2014, 01:35:41 am
Remove Bounty: It has terrible class balance. It's really just a valley, which should be obvious to anyone, that it's terrible for melee. Ranged get fairly advantageous spots to shoot from, cav don't really have to worry about anything at all, most of the terrain is flat, and there is very little (if any) debris they need to steer away from. So what you have, is a map that funnels melee into one spot to get eaten alive by both ranged and cav. This is the exact opposite of what we want.

It's best to balance through maps, than items or builds, if possible.
i updated that map and moved the spawns... waiting for the patch, if it still doesnt play well remove it
This is one of my favourite maps, as any class. I don't see why you would need to remove or edit it.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on August 10, 2014, 04:16:58 am
Looked at your maps that are up for discussion as additions. I'd like to see the following added:

Reveran Village: good to have a new town map, keep it fresh
Sandi Boush:  Looks like a lot of fun. We could use a few more tiny maps like this
Native - Village: I know it's super easy to camp but I love this map even if it isn't balanced well. It's just fun.
Maaseutu 2 : this is the forest map that I got added way back when! Closer spawns is a good idea, it's a very large map even with closer spawns
River Village: with tower!!! GOD YES PLEASE! Are you going to re-include the barn and garden gates too?

If Sandi Boush gets in, I'd also like to see the ATS map Street Revolt added. Similar idea, different map flavor. It's a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: San on August 10, 2014, 08:55:27 am
I like what I see so far. The change to Trouble in the Neighbourhood is definitely interesting and we'll have to see how it turns out in practice. For Trouble in the Neighbourhood, is it possible to move the flag location outside of the water? That would make the map much more enjoyable during the latter parts of the round.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: _Tak_ on August 10, 2014, 01:04:26 pm
I honestly think most of the defend the viscount maps are pretty good for battles. Have you consider adding them to battle mode? some of them are pretty nice for PVP not just for bots. village maps are great, they provides good cover for ranged, better team strategy and tactics.

what i would like to see if more maps for all classes, instead of maps which is only limited to 1 or 2 classes. All classes friendly maps whatever you called them.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on August 10, 2014, 05:15:16 pm
Also of note, Bounty only has 1 functional MotF spawn location and it's in the water closest to team 1's spawn. That alone should get it removed until fixed.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on August 11, 2014, 01:06:16 am
Old maps
Here are some old maps that are still ingame that I remember being decent and which I am willing to re-add. Please give your opinions which you would like back and why. Most of these are fairly open, for which there seems to be a preference currently

Peipus Lake
(click to show/hide)
The concept is nice, but I don't like how it plays. The lake/pond needs to be smaller, the size tends to cause teams to either never touch the center, or to only utilize the center. It's incredibly hard(suicidal) to cross from one side to the other due to the size. Just add 5m-10m of additional trees to shrink the center area, then readd it.


Hun in the Sun
(click to show/hide)
At least throw some debris around the areas away from the huts.

Covered Crossing
(click to show/hide)
Pretty good map. It has issues when you get a full server playing due to the one small bottle neck.


Citadel Ruins
(click to show/hide)
Good map. Shouldn't have been removed.


Domremy
(click to show/hide)
Not bad, could use some debris strewn about though.


Two Rivers
(click to show/hide)
Neutral on this one.


Tumulus
(click to show/hide)
I never enjoyed this map, except for when I was playing cav or ranged. The hills are good for ranged and somewhat cav (there are no steep inclines), bad for melee, and the open terrain is good for cav, decent for ranged (LOS on everything), and bad for melee. Please do not add. Cav is strong enough on its own that it doesn't need maps catering to it.


Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)
Not bad, it favors ranged a bit too heavily for me though. Melee are sitting ducks when trying to climb up hills at archers, which happens all the time on this map. It wouldn't be so bad, except Warband has shitty movement mechanics, particularly when it comes to hills. The left side hill is far too effective of a position for ranged. It's the tallest, widest and steepest hill in the whole map, and if this wasn't bad enough, only one team really has access to it.
Keep in mind, it's very likely that all of these maps will need to have their MotF locations looked at to make sure they don't spawn too close to one team. Even though we don't have MotF spawning immediately, it can still often spawn within the first minute of a round.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tanken on August 11, 2014, 01:23:37 am
Add these back in.

Citadel Ruins
(click to show/hide)

Domremy
(click to show/hide)

Tumulus
(click to show/hide)

Forgot what this one is called, cba to look up the name now
(click to show/hide)


PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HAVE ARENA BACK IN THE ROTATION!!!!!!!

Edit: Also, I've always said a lot of the Original Rageball maps would play amazingly in battle. Especially the one that had a lot of alternating buildings with archways and was set inside of what looked like an actual jousting arena.

Also, whatever happened to that old map which was a square village in the desert, with both teams having a way to go up some stairs and shoot down from their side, but the infantry having to go through 2 archways and meet in the middle, or off to the sides? It was very straight-forward.

Lately, I've been noticing smaller maps have generally been playing much better. It's the over-sized ones that make everyone bitch and moan, so focus on adding smaller stuff.

I would honestly remove almost every map right now from rotation and completely mix it up to give us a fresh-breath of air, but I know that won't happen and I know that's a big request.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Viriathus on August 11, 2014, 03:23:48 pm
Tydeus, adjusting the Motf spawns is a matter of minutes, rly.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on August 12, 2014, 01:15:55 am
Tydeus, adjusting the Motf spawns is a matter of minutes, rly.
Right, but it means they shouldn't be added back in unless he's updating the maps. I wasn't able to discern whether or not he was willing to do any more than just alter the rotation.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Andswaru on August 16, 2014, 02:35:47 pm
Celtic circle, just saw it on the chinese tourny thinger, bring it back!
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: _Tak_ on August 21, 2014, 10:54:19 am
also can we have more bigger maps? (Not Open Plain Maps) for Cavs, but bigger maps that is balanced for all class perhaps? Like more village ones. Some city maps are too small and end very quickly, would like to have more bigger maps so more ticks and exp
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on September 07, 2014, 10:01:58 am
Okay I updated this thing and actually went ahead and commited most changes to the server rotation, because some removals are probably done sooner rather than later.

Changes
- Added Domremy, Covered Crossing, Citadel Ruins and Upon the Rocks
- Removed Rivendell and Blue Forest
- Canceled addition of Sandi Boush

Two maps I am still torn on are Down by the River and Trouble in the Neighbourhood.

Here is a modified version I made of Trouble, but honestly it looks like a ranged fest. I think the difficulty of fighting in the center due to the water basically ruins this map quite thoroughly. I'd probably rather remove it anyway.
(click to show/hide)



Here is some feedback from a different thread that should be in here, thanks. Maps I marked in red are definitely on the chopping block. Provide some input if you will.

Anyway I went over some of the map rotation a while ago, I think some of these maps are no longer in the rotation and obviously there is way more in it that I don't have down.  also i'm sure nobody would edit the maps themselves, so most of the ones i'd just remove.

(click to show/hide)

But there is an easy pattern to tell for what makes bad maps that most people I know agree with. Hills are awful. Elevated camping positions are awful. Flat ground with no cover is awful. Narrow pathways/corridors are awful.

Also, whatever happened to that old map which was a square village in the desert, with both teams having a way to go up some stairs and shoot down from their side, but the infantry having to go through 2 archways and meet in the middle, or off to the sides? It was very straight-forward.
Does not ring a bell at all, perhaps a drawing could help?
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: darmaster on September 07, 2014, 02:38:14 pm
pueblo village and trouble in the neighbourhood were fine imo, sometimes it's ok to cut with the "most OP class ever" (riding classes); upon the rocks brings too much QQ ranged imo, i remember it and it was mostly a "wait untill they run out of ammo or untill some of our stupid teammates charge" map, the rest seems fine, happy to see village back. nord town and port assault must be in as twice as now imo. and remove snowy villages, at least some: they're utter shit.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on September 07, 2014, 03:25:55 pm
pueblo village and trouble in the neighbourhood were fine imo, sometimes it's ok to cut with the "most OP class ever" (riding classes)
I disagree, if someone who wants to play cav for about half an hour before he goes to bed, I think he should be able to. Having a dozen maps where cav is tricky to play is fine, but having many maps where cav is literally impossible to play, I don't think that's good form for a battle server.

remove snowy villages, at least some: they're utter shit.
Which ones and why are they shit?
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: darmaster on September 07, 2014, 04:09:09 pm
most of those i've seen in battle, these days if i'll play i'll update; as for the cav maps i said once in a while, 1 map out of 6/7 maybe?
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Jacko on September 07, 2014, 08:08:37 pm
Having made a lot of the maps in question I thought I'd pitch in with a few words.

Trouble in the Neighbourhood was initially made as a CTF map, and then later quick fixed to become a battle map. Generally I think the map plays fine for whatever class and I don't, as others have mentioned, see the water in the middle as a problem. It's a very deliberate choice that 'forces' fighting to happen somewhere else. Circling might be an issue, it's a part of it's CTF upbringing. Can't say I've seen it as a problem myself, these years it's been in rotation. Admittedly I don't play much at all anymore, so if it does play as bad as you say Teeth, I'd just remove it, no need to butcher it and remove the walls and what not.

Down By the River is chaotic and you don't quite know where the enemy is, for good and bad. From what I've seen it plays good regardless of class (and when I was active I spectated a lot. Only real way to know what works with a map and what doesn't). Knowing that people remove vegetation really kills is for me though. I'm curious, what is it people find bad with it?

Upon the Rock I removed a long time ago because the hill near a spawn point was very favourable for camping. If that is fixed somehow I'd add it, but otherwise I'd not bother with it.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Grumbs on September 10, 2014, 02:43:08 pm
The problem with Down By the River is people don't know where to go and split up really easily. For a pub people need a sense of direction and should be able to have line of sight to team mates. Either people go in the forest and get lost and have random fights, or they go to the open area which is basically just a small arena. There isn't really much strategy then if people avoid the forest, and if people do go in the forest there is no real teamplay since people don't get a sense of whether they are strong enough to push or should retreat since theres poor line of site. It just encourages a very random playstyle with people going all over the map
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Andswaru on September 11, 2014, 10:59:29 am
The problem with Down By the River is people don't know where to go and split up really easily. For a pub people need a sense of direction and should be able to have line of sight to team mates. Either people go in the forest and get lost and have random fights, or they go to the open area which is basically just a small arena. There isn't really much strategy then if people avoid the forest, and if people do go in the forest there is no real teamplay since people don't get a sense of whether they are strong enough to push or should retreat since theres poor line of site. It just encourages a very random playstyle with people going all over the map

Thats actually what I like about Down by the River, it is just something different instead of the normal blobbing. In my opinion 1 or 2 maps like this really add something different to the rotation.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on September 11, 2014, 02:41:35 pm
I'd just like to note that these changes still haven't taken place for NA 1. Presumably we need a server restart?
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on September 11, 2014, 02:52:13 pm
Correct
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on September 11, 2014, 05:16:27 pm
well make them do it damn it teeth
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Viriathus on September 12, 2014, 07:22:38 pm
dont remove Down by the River nor Crop Roptarion, maybe they dont play perfectly well but theyre still good maps.

Changes
- Added Domremy, Covered Crossing, Citadel Ruins and Upon the Rocks
- Removed Rivendell and Blue Forest
- Canceled addition of Sandi Boush
... Agreed.

BTW Teeth, can we get an updated list with scrn shots of all maps on rotation? just updated that thread Fips made, its rly usefull.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Digglez on September 23, 2014, 12:38:56 am
REMOVE  Canals of our city

Problem:  Very poorly made, affects FPS dramatically. 

Also, so windy and narrow in parts you cannot locate the other team so it often drags on when only a few are left looking for each other.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on September 26, 2014, 12:11:01 pm
Okay, decided to remove some doubtfully fun maps to hopefully reduce map rotation frustration, this is perhaps quite rigorous cutting of decent maps, but as this is probably my last venture into modifying the rotation I just wanna leave it as something solid. As always, screenshot and a reason is provided in the OP.

Removed:
Crop Rotation
Trouble in the Neighbourhood
Desert Ruins
Burning of the Ships

Changed my mind about adding Upon the Rocks

I'm not removing Down by the River as I don't understand the problem. Since I removed some trees people seem to not get lost and otherwise just tell your teammates to go to the open bit at the beach. According to my clanmate who hates it for reasons he isn't able to explain, it kills the server population everytime it comes on. Is anyone able to confirm or deny that?

Edit: Oh yeah, also removed Burning of the Ships.



BTW Teeth, can we get an updated list with scrn shots of all maps on rotation? just updated that thread Fips made, its rly usefull.
No, on account of me being too lazy. We mostly created that so people would be capable of communicating about maps better, especially because there was no real way to get the right name for a map because the names were bugged. The names are fixed now, so people can QMU or look at the server browser and actually check which map is which. Though of course if you want to take screenshots of every map, upload them and format them so they look like in the spoiler below and PM it to me, then I'd happily copy pasta it in the thread, but personally I don't think it's worth the effort.

(click to show/hide)



Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Thomek on September 26, 2014, 02:26:04 pm
Teeth, idk if you followed the recent balance threads..

Basically: Perhaps maps better suited for infantry will help, but idk..
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on September 26, 2014, 02:40:19 pm
That is not the feedback I have been given in this thread. Nearly every map I removed features hard to attack spots for ranged. As for the maps that are literally unplayable for cav, cavalry has only one server to play on and I don't think it is right to make the game actually unplayable for a class. There is no such thing as cavalry and ranged maps, good cavalry maps are bad for ranged and good ranged maps are bad for cavalry. Besides, if you are referring to your thread, I wasn't too thrilled about the arguments put forth and I wasn't aware that some community wide approval was reached.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on September 27, 2014, 06:22:55 pm
Please consider (re)adding the native map Field by the River. While perhaps a bit boring to some, I find it to be quite well balanced, with great opportunities for any sort of infantry, cavalry, and ranged. Nobody is really left out. It is visually pleasing and pretty much just the best fucking map ever.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on September 28, 2014, 09:56:11 am
It's never been out.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on September 28, 2014, 02:47:25 pm
It's never been out.

well fook

Maybe the NA rotation just doesn't have it? Haven't seen it in many moons.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on September 28, 2014, 04:52:27 pm
Well, there are usually 60-80 maps in the rotation, which is probably like 40 hours worth of running time, so it is very plausible that you won't see maps for a while if you don't play a lot. There is a small possibility that it somehow accidentally got removed from the NA rotation, but at least for the last update I copypasta'd the list in it's entirety into both rotation, so it is definitely in now.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on October 01, 2014, 05:00:07 am
You keep citing "fuck you to cav" as a reason not to include a map, but as a dickless cav lancer afk-killing, back stabbing loomed courser riding cavalry player I must protest. I enjoy maps that totally, effectively exclude cav.

Its nice to have counter strike esque maps with fast rounds and no cav to worry about.

My ideal map, btw, is literally a single room--a killing box 50'x50' that both teams spawn in. I want such a thing to exist very badly.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: SIrCampALot on October 01, 2014, 06:56:49 am

My ideal map, btw, is literally a single room--a killing box 50'x50' that both teams spawn in. I want such a thing to exist very badly.
Then do it. There's a nice editor in game, not too complicated to learn how it works. Here's a very good an easy guide. (http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/peasant_woman%27s-simple-and-easy-guide-to-making-a-playable-map-for-crpg/)
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 01, 2014, 03:25:13 pm
Teeth can you put this desert map back in the rotation (the one with houses on each side of a shallow river and there's a bridge in the middle)?  Can be seen in this video at this time stamp:  http://youtu.be/SeAOv_H-hh0?t=11s

(that's the Kings of KD video).

Also appreciate you putting back in some of the older maps that have been missing from the rotation, lots of good memories (plus they're good maps). 
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Teeth on October 01, 2014, 05:41:38 pm
I think I personally removed that one due to all the cover being at the respective spawns which completely discourages charging and that causes rounds to draw out. Of course aside from that, running 50 meters without cover is just no fun for most. I don't see why it should be put back in.

You keep citing "fuck you to cav" as a reason not to include a map, but as a dickless cav lancer afk-killing, back stabbing loomed courser riding cavalry player I must protest. I enjoy maps that totally, effectively exclude cav.
Not all cav players think that way though, people should be able to play cavalry on the battle server whenever they want in my opinion, not just when they get a lucky break in the rotation.
Title: Re: Battle map rotation overhaul
Post by: Tydeus on October 02, 2014, 02:57:33 am
That is not the feedback I have been given in this thread. Nearly every map I removed features hard to attack spots for ranged.
Map rotation should have never been separate from item balance.  :|