cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Jack1 on May 20, 2014, 03:38:11 am

Title: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Jack1 on May 20, 2014, 03:38:11 am
At the moment, in my opinion, bonus vs shield weapons are not what I think they should be. First there are the melee weapons and second there are the throwing weapons.

First, melee weapons with bonus vs shields seem to be too overpowered in my opinion. Axes(1h, 2h, and polearm) and morningstars are some of the more overpowered weapons in the game for the simple fact that they have, situationally, the beast damage in the game while being able to destroy shields and render one handed users and hoplites much worse off than they should be. Realistically the weapons that have bonus vs shields would have two simple parts. The first part would be the swing. the second part would be the ripping part when the weapon is removed from the shield. If you have ever had to chop wood with an axe you know that if you don't get all of the way though the wood your axe gets stuck in it and you have to get your foot on that piece of wood and pull with all of your might to get it out. My suggestion, if you think bonus vs shield should be changed, is that there is a weapon stun that happens to you whenever you hit a shield with bonus which would be both balance and realism.

Second is throwing. Balance wise throwing needs to be changed. Throwers nearly never choose throwing axes. Heavy throwing axes destroy shields with one less shot but already have two less ammunition than throwing spears. Heavy throwing axes also do less damage when somebody gets to be about 55 or so body armor while throwing spears or jarids start doing more, let alone that you still have the case of them having two or one ammunition. In my opinion throwing spears, javalins, and jarids need to loose their bonus vs shield or heavy throwing axes, throwing axes, and Francesca need to gain more ammunition, possibly only a damage buff for Francesca. The axes would also need a buff so that they are about equal with their piercing counterparts.

discuss
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: HarunYahya on May 20, 2014, 04:18:45 am
Dude, shields should break.
If you manage to hit a guy under full plate armor by penetrating fine crafted steel, you should manage to pierce damn woodenpiece aswell.

This game is  fucked up realism-wise in many points but devs insist on keeping it a lil arcadish since most of the playerbase seek a balanced game instead of a medieval battle simulator.

I see your point, i would like to play a game without a shitty unrealistic factor in it aswell. For example as a cavalry, how the fuck can you remove your lance in full speed right after you pierce someone's body ?
Questions and suggestions are endless but won't ever happen. There is a thread asking for a realistic version of cRPG, a different server etc which is not gonna happen aswell you may check it, Baskalov Dima was the author cba to find the thread tho. Search "realistic version of crpg"
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Jack1 on May 20, 2014, 04:33:09 am
Quote from: HarunYahya on May 20, 2014, 04:18:45 am
Dude, shields should break.
If you manage to hit a guy under full plate armor by penetrating fine crafted steel, you should manage to pierce damn woodenpiece aswell.

This game is  fucked up realism-wise in many points but devs insist on keeping it a lil arcadish since most of the playerbase seek a balanced game instead of a medieval battle simulator.

I see your point, i would like to play a game without a shitty unrealistic factor in it aswell. For example as a cavalry, how the fuck can you remove your lance in full speed right after you pierce someone's body ?
Questions and suggestions are endless but won't ever happen. There is a thread asking for a realistic version of cRPG, a different server etc which is not gonna happen aswell you may check it, Baskalov Dima was the author cba to find the thread tho. Search "realistic version of crpg"

I'm fine without realism, but, in my opinion, most weapons with bonus vs shield are overpowered and my suggestion is just a way to incorporate realism with the balance. I am fine with people being able to break shields fast with bonus vs shield weapons, but, I also think that they as a niche are overpowered and should have a downside other than that they generally have bad or no stabs.. The downside to it should be that they have a .1 second or smaller stun when hitting a shield.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on May 20, 2014, 04:42:17 am
I sort of agree, bonus to shield weapons are stupid these long axes are stronger than the halfed blade, which isn't even a bonus to shield weapon. Also I LOVE how you can cut someones shield 20+ times and do nothing to it, BUT if you swing some stupid little axe TWICE it breaks the shield..?

What I would suggest(?) is having it just like crush through, you can hold to get a better chance at breaking the shield not just have a 100% chance to break a shield in two hits when the guy has 6 shield skill.

Or just nerf the stats on the weapons with bonus to shield, LONG AXE(FUCK YOU)
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: MURDERTRON on May 20, 2014, 04:57:34 am
I don't think the use of bonus to shield weapons are quite as popular as you think.  Outside of their bonus to shields, they are generally terrible weapons.  The Morningstar isn't really even that good.  Most 2hers would do better with a longsword.  It has a niche role in Strategus because everyone wears plate armor.  It also has a niche role for 2h/1h cav, because it has massive damage, but is otherwise one of the worst and most unforgiving cav weapons for scoring hits.

Most of the axes are atrocious in terms of stats.  There are some outliers, like the Long Bardiche and Long Axe.  Niether of those have the unbalanced tag.  Meanwhile, the 2h Axes that got the unbalanced tag removed, took a big hit in damage.  Axes in general, with a few exceptions noted above, are awful dueling weapons, and most players would prefer to hit a shielder while he's trying to attack rather than try to break his shield.  At this mod's current state, most of the players can block competently so removing their shield and speeding up their attacks doesn't guarantee you a kill, not by a long shot.  If you had made this argument 2 years ago, maybe I'd agree.

If you want to add a new mechanic that involves the axe getting stuck in the shield, then you'd better add a chance to pull the shield away.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on May 20, 2014, 04:58:46 am
Quote from: MURDERTRON on May 20, 2014, 04:57:34 am
I don't think the use of bonus to shield weapons are quite as popular as you think.  Outside of their bonus to shields, they are generally terrible weapons.

Lol what the longaxe and bardouche are the most common polearms.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: San on May 20, 2014, 06:05:55 am
I believe most of the axes have length, power, or speed disadvantages in comparison to their equivalent blunt/pierce weapons. Compare the bar mace, bec, and military pick to most of their axe equivalents. They're definitely great for their purpose with good enough stats to hold their own.

Jarids are still better than most of the axes overall, but the axes typically have easier difficulty requirements and the superior rate of fire/accuracy help overcome the damage and missile speed differences. I think bonus against shield staying wouldn't be too bad. I tried using throwing hammers against shields and that did not work out at all, haha.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on May 20, 2014, 06:35:01 am
Quote from: San on May 20, 2014, 06:05:55 am
I believe most of the axes have length, power, or speed disadvantages in comparison to their equivalent blunt/pierce weapons. Compare the bar mace, bec, and military pick to most of their axe equivalents. They're definitely great for their purpose with good enough stats to hold their own.

Jarids are still better than most of the axes overall, but the axes typically have easier difficulty requirements and the superior rate of fire/accuracy help overcome the damage and missile speed differences. I think bonus against shield staying wouldn't be too bad. I tried using throwing hammers against shields and that did not work out at all, haha.
Long Axe
weapon length: 115
weight: 3
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 97
weapon length: 115
thrust damage: 20 cut
swing damage: 41 cut

Lets be real here, this axe has a 12 str difficulty and it has 41 cut 97 speed AND bonus to shields.. It is better than a longsword IMO... Polearms side swings make this thing a monster. Lets compare it to its daddy.
Great Long Axe
weapon length: 125
weight: 3.5
difficulty: 16
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 125
thrust damage: 16 blunt
swing damage: 45 cut
slots: 2

Holy shit 92 speed? I wonder why?
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: San on May 20, 2014, 06:54:36 am
+3 bec is equivalent to 49 cut against medium armor, pretty much a 5 damage advantage. +5 length and only -3 speed.

Then you have these weapons:
(click to show/hide)
+8 length, +1 cut, and a slightly less crappy stab all for 2 speed. It's still an axe, though, but it's pretty equivalent to the long axe. Then GLA is 3 cut for 3 speed from the LWA.

(click to show/hide)
Excellent length and speed for 5 cut and lack of bonus against shield. Iron staff deals similar damage to the hafted blade, but it's slightly slower/shorter with a better stab and knockdown as well as usability with shield.

Compare it to the longsword with +2 speed and a usable long stab where it helps quite a bit to help in more situations. The long axe would excel in close quarters combat, even against shielders. Only shorter 1h would really have a large issue against it. Long 1hers can outreach it with the right swing with similar speed values. It's a great weapon, excellent even, but it's hard for me to see how it's far superior to other great weapons available, even in its own weapon class.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Kadeth on May 20, 2014, 07:21:34 am
Quote from: Admiral Ballsack on May 20, 2014, 06:35:01 am
Long Axe
weapon length: 115
weight: 3
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 97
weapon length: 115
thrust damage: 20 cut
swing damage: 41 cut

Lets be real here, this axe has a 12 str difficulty and it has 41 cut 97 speed AND bonus to shields.. It is better than a longsword IMO... Polearms side swings make this thing a monster. Lets compare it to its daddy.
Great Long Axe
weapon length: 125
weight: 3.5
difficulty: 16
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 125
thrust damage: 16 blunt
swing damage: 45 cut
slots: 2

Holy shit 92 speed? I wonder why?

The GLA seems even crappier when compared to the Long Bardiche imho.

GLA costs almost twice as much, has 15 less reach and only has 2 more speed?
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on May 20, 2014, 07:26:26 am
Quote from: Goris on May 20, 2014, 07:21:34 am
The GLA seems even crappier when compared to the Long Bardiche imho.

GLA costs almost twice as much, has 15 less reach and only has 2 more speed?

The GLA sucks compared to the Long Axe the purpose was to show how stupid broken the long axe is compared to it's similar bonus to shield counter parts.. You can't compare something that breaks shields in 2 hits to the BEC. I mean it's as fast as the one handed battle axe, used with say a 12-30 build the thing is stupid. Why wouldn't anyone NOT use the Long Axe?


Broad One Handed Battle Axe
weapon length: 73
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 98(Or 97 in game?)
weapon length: 73
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 20, 2014, 07:56:56 am
Heavy throwing axe has something all other throwing weapons do not. Crazy broken predictability. I was able to stand at pretty hefty distance and land axe after axe into each other. It's crazy accurate. The only reasons it's dropped off so much in use is that it lost ammo.

Your comments vis a vis shields are... well... foolish imo. The thing needs to break, end of story. I used shields for a hell of a long time, I only just flipped over to 2h recently. In the basically 3 years I used shields I almost only ever used the 3 dif brown lion shield and usually with 3 shield skill. It would break most rounds, but usually by the end and often to things like couched lances or a couple of goons with axes. I never really saw a problem with this. It's pretty easy to keep a shield alive if you want to. For me it's mostly about not getting hit with bolts and arrows and being able to ram into facehug range, it's not really a replacement for blocking, it gives you other abilities.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: San on May 20, 2014, 08:04:21 am
Above 2 shield, a shieldbreaker shouldn't break it in 2 hits. It feels more like 4-8 depending on how you're hit for the average shield, variable if you let it get hit by held attacks.

15 length for 2 speed is consistent for GLA->Long bardiche->Great Long Bardiche with slight damage increases along the way. The horse rearing is the indirect buff that pushes it ahead, though. The pricing for the most expensive polearms don't really indicate superiority too much tbqh. You can say that for most of the good polearms since some are insanely cheap.

I do understand that weapons that reach the highest limits of stats like speed should come at a harsher penalty elsewhere, but for all weapon types. IMO it's not just a long axe thing.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Artyem on May 20, 2014, 08:27:42 am
It seems like unbalanced weapons in general are somewhat overpowered.  I don't think shields are breaking too easily, but the weapons in general are just really easy to use.  I've been using a +3 great axe on my alt and it's ridiculously easy to just spam people, since I seem to out speed every person that isn't using a +3 spear or staff.

shit's crazy
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Strudog on May 20, 2014, 09:28:14 am
i currently play with the GLA and it takes me 3-4 hits to kill a shield, for me it does not seem overpowered, when i do play shielder and i find myself against one of these shield breaking weapons, i put the shield on my back and fight them with manual blocking, once they are dead i start using the shield again.

In regards to the GLA, the LB is far superior in every aspect, for 1 less cut and 2 less speed, why does the weapon cost almost half less then the GLA?
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Joseph Porta on May 20, 2014, 10:03:19 am
Lets say the weapon stun for shieldbreakers would be implemented, don't you think that that would result in a free left swing hit with any decent speed 1h? Sounds fairly logical that it would - if timed correctly, good 1hers are able to that.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Kadeth on May 20, 2014, 11:06:49 am
Quote from: San on May 20, 2014, 08:04:21 am
15 length for 2 speed is consistent for GLA->Long bardiche->Great Long Bardiche with slight damage increases along the way.

Yes, but having used both the LB and the GLA quite a lot, it feels like the additional 15 reach on the LB makes a significant difference, whereas the additional 2 speed on the GLA is barely noticeable.

I'm no expert on item balancing, but do you really consider -15 reach for +2 speed a fair trade, especially with the price difference between the two weapons?

Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: San on May 20, 2014, 04:52:30 pm
It might not be for many players. I personally don't mind using short weapons and I do notice speed differences. If you take into account the price difference, long bardiche is definitely more efficient, but I think there is some use in both weapons. It's the difference between matching the speed of greatswords and the like and being slower than pretty much everything. You can hiltslash to get around it mostly, though.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: MURDERTRON on May 20, 2014, 05:05:02 pm
Quote from: Admiral Ballsack on May 20, 2014, 04:58:46 am
Lol what the longaxe and bardouche are the most common polearms.

Because they are uncommonly good, they don't suffer a damage penalty for not being unbalanced, not like the newly changed 2h axes.  These are also the only two axes you see anyone dueling with.  You have to dissect what Jack's actual complaint is about: axes in general or those two weapons?  All other axes are awful weapons, and the cons far outweigh the pros compared to a similar sword.  Those two exceptions are generally good weapons.

Again, the lack of unbalanced tag is huge in what makes those weapons what they are.  Also I find it funny there's no mention of the Long War Axe in this thread, mostly because it suffers a damage penalty for not being unbalanced.
Title: Re: Bonus VS shield weapons
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 20, 2014, 05:16:25 pm
Shield breaking weapons should not have be stunned when hitting shields, this would be silly and a uncalled for nerf to weapons that are barely used as it is (maybe they are common in NA i dunno, barely see them in EU though).
They are also not op at all, they break shields and hit hard yes, but they dont have good thrusts and usually pretty shitty reach aswell. Using a Hafted Blade is better than a long axe anyways, or using a spear/awlpike compared to a Long war axe. And for 2h weapons having the thrust is such a big advantage compared to being able to break shields faster.

IMO Long axe is better than GLA, because my build has high athletics so i can make up for the lack of reach. But i still find GLA to be a really strong weapon, having good reach and crazy damage. As for the shieldbreaking part i feel they both break shields at about the same rate.

Quote from: MURDERTRON on May 20, 2014, 05:05:02 pm
Again, the lack of unbalanced tag is huge in what makes those weapons what they are.  Also I find it funny there's no mention of the Long War Axe in this thread, mostly because it suffers a damage penalty for not being unbalanced.

The long war axe is probably the best out of the polearm axes, because its a nice balance of speed and length.