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Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Segd on December 05, 2013, 12:42:33 pm

Title: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on December 05, 2013, 12:42:33 pm

Special forces are enforcing peace on the streets  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on December 05, 2013, 01:02:55 pm
I am fairly sure this shit doesnt happen when the Dutch riot police goes at it. Jesus, violent inhumane indisciplined scumbags.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on December 05, 2013, 01:16:53 pm
talk about kicking a guy when hes down :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on December 05, 2013, 01:20:02 pm
apes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirbyy on December 05, 2013, 01:22:16 pm
Quote from: Osiris on December 05, 2013, 01:16:53 pm
talk about kicking a guy when hes down :D

You're really not funny.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lars on December 05, 2013, 01:23:59 pm
I doubt they are using special forces for public order, but i may be wrong, theoretically special forces are the elite, "crème de la crème" units of an army, like: Navy seals, Delta force, Sas, Spetsnaz, Green berets, Incursori etc... i think these units are used for freeing hostages, capture high profile members of criminal organizations, anti terrorism, war scenarios and stuff like that.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on December 05, 2013, 01:24:19 pm

Arent these the same guys?

But this video is in some Football arena and they beat Huligans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: IR_Kuoin on December 05, 2013, 01:30:49 pm
They just kick and hit the guy laying down regardless ...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on December 05, 2013, 02:10:47 pm
happens in Croatia on regular basis, sad...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 02:26:36 pm
This is what happens when the country is ruled by arogant bastards that cannot admit that they fucked up and get better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on December 05, 2013, 02:38:49 pm
its generally what happens in most countries when there are riots. They threaten the police by throwing missles and firebombs and sometimes some of the police snap and turn brutal.  Its happened in london and many other places, its not right but its a risk you take when participating in civil unrest
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 02:40:21 pm
Quote from: Osiris on December 05, 2013, 02:38:49 pm
its generally what happens in most countries when there are riots. They threaten the police by throwing missles and firebombs and sometimes some of the police snap and turn brutal.  Its happened in london and many other places, its not right but its a risk you take when participating in civil unrest

There woudnt be riots if there was a competent government.

No riot happens just for shits and giggles.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on December 05, 2013, 02:45:08 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 02:40:21 pm
There woudnt be riots if there was a competent government.

No riot happens just for shits and giggles.

really. so the rioting and looting in london 2011 by the young and younger adults was purely because the government of the UK is incompetent?

I admit i don't know the story of this riot, i don't know if these were peaceful protesters or if seconds before the video they were throwing firebombs, but to blame all violence, riots and protests on govts is a bit retarded
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 02:53:55 pm
Quote from: Osiris on December 05, 2013, 02:45:08 pm
really. so the rioting and looting in london 2011 by the young and younger adults was purely because the government of the UK is incompetent?

I admit i don't know the story of this riot, i don't know if these were peaceful protesters or if seconds before the video they were throwing firebombs, but to blame all violence, riots and protests on govts is a bit retarded

Well yeah I doubt it has anything to do with government in London, but tbh government in Ukraine is shit, to the point that many Ukrainians (I hope I wrote that right) escape to the countries like Slovakia and Czech republic which have pretty shit and corrupt government themselves, and they actually like living there.

I agree though that riots are not always a product of bad government, but honestly, more often than not, they are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on December 05, 2013, 03:06:42 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 02:40:21 pm
There woudnt be riots if there was a competent government.

No riot happens just for shits and giggles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Vancouver_Stanley_Cup_riot

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lennu on December 05, 2013, 03:18:58 pm
Kinda sad that those guys are supposed to be an organized force. All I see is police running after people and beating whoever they catch, not even trying to arrest anyone, just beat him up and go for the next victim.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 05, 2013, 03:22:26 pm
At least the guy at around 0:16 has some dignity and pushes some away in the face.


Fucking riot police. Hate them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Berserkadin on December 05, 2013, 04:02:39 pm
That's kinda ordinary when it comes to clashes with police and people who are rioting, even in our "englightened", "free" western countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Ikarus on December 05, 2013, 06:27:10 pm
shit happening on both sides :/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 05, 2013, 07:59:10 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 02:40:21 pm
There woudnt be riots if there was a competent government.

No riot happens just for shits and giggles.

Actually the majority of riots happen for shits and giggles. Football and pissed of for pointless reasons minority riots are the most common ones. The last one being extremely common. Even my noname country that is basically a desert for any kind of action(thank god for that), had one of those pissed off minority riots a few years back where some russians started breaking and destroying property simply because a single statue was moved someplace else. Most of those rioters didnt even know what they were supposed to be pissed about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 05, 2013, 08:22:18 pm
These 'cops' act like a bunch of kids that were in there first riot control. They want to fight so badly that they stop by a defenseless guy to hit him a few times.
Sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on December 05, 2013, 09:44:25 pm
Regardless of what that rioter did moments ago, there is no justification for what the riot police did in that video. He was down on the ground, not moving, "neutralised". That is just straight up brutality, that has no place in modern countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bjord on December 05, 2013, 09:50:35 pm
This is nothing, considering the prime minister of Ukraine is a rapist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 05, 2013, 09:53:48 pm
I don't see the issue. If the rioters got out of control, they should get a beating. Teach them to act like imbeciles.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 09:55:44 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 05, 2013, 09:53:48 pm
I don't see the issue. If the rioters got out of control, they should get a beating. Teach them to act like imbeciles.

Yeah well but the police should only attack if they get truly hostile.

Beating someone who is lying on ground doing nothing is stupid
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 05, 2013, 10:00:19 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 09:55:44 pm
Message deleted.

what, why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: Christo on December 05, 2013, 10:00:19 pm
what, why?

I read the message wrong...

I understood it like: It is ok give everyone on street a good beating...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on December 05, 2013, 10:17:21 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bjord on December 05, 2013, 10:18:05 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 10:03:06 pm
I read the message wrong...

I understood it like: It is ok give everyone on street a good beating...

You have a knack for misinterpreting things and jumping to conclusions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 05, 2013, 11:26:30 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 09:55:44 pm
Yeah well but the police should only attack if they get truly hostile.

Beating someone who is lying on ground doing nothing is stupid
Why should they only attack if they get "truly hostile"? What is "truly hostile"?

Why is beating someone who's lying on the ground stupid? I would disagree, I bet it's very effective. That fellow might think twice before participating in his next riot.

The police on the video are clearly not aiming to do any real damage to the guy. Just giving him a few kicks for good measure; if anything, the problem with Western police is that they've been too pussified and have to treat people with silk gloves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on December 05, 2013, 11:53:17 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 05, 2013, 11:26:30 pm
The police on the video are clearly not aiming to do any real damage to the guy. Just giving him a few kicks for good measure;
What the fuck are you on about? I saw a few dozen baton swings or boot kicks deliberately aimed at his face. Also getting hit with a baton in the body can cause real damage. People have died from single punches, let alone 50 full on swings with batons. Batons are not made of foam you know. This guy could have very well died, who knows, he even might still. This is extremely far from teaching someone a lesson, this is attempted murder.

Don't think you fully appreciate what baton swings are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 11:57:45 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 05, 2013, 11:26:30 pm
Why should they only attack if they get "truly hostile"? What is "truly hostile"?

Why is beating someone who's lying on the ground stupid? I would disagree, I bet it's very effective. That fellow might think twice before participating in his next riot.

The police on the video are clearly not aiming to do any real damage to the guy. Just giving him a few kicks for good measure; if anything, the problem with Western police is that they've been too pussified and have to treat people with silk gloves.

Who the fuck are you kidding here?

Those people were running away and they just beaten them to ground and continued to pummel them.

Did you even watch the video?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on December 06, 2013, 12:04:16 am
We had the same situation few months ago in my country. Different reasons but same goal. For now there are nothing, it all stopped and waiting for the next election. The problem is we don't trust the system. How can you trust a system with a computer counting the votes? I was in all protests so i saw the anger on both sides. Due to recent history of my country it's really dangerous to fight back against police. So all we can do is fall back and regroup. I'm still reading the recent history and listening the olders. They were all saying ''You guys doing nothing, in our time police was the one who surrenders'' and it's all true. I'm thinking about this almost everyday, we are loosing cause we are always thinking about the consequence. When nobody trusts the sytem(election,judgement etc etc...) anarchy is needed.

Few example about what happened in my country.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on December 06, 2013, 12:27:29 am
Quote from: Lennu on December 05, 2013, 03:18:58 pm
Kinda sad that those guys are supposed to be an organized force. All I see is police running after people and beating whoever they catch, not even trying to arrest anyone, just beat him up and go for the next victim.

There is certain police car in my country/city and when I see it, I put my head down and keep walking from there just like I'm some criminal scum. Why? Because police unit that rides around the city in those cars consist of former criminals and psychopath scum with a badge. No one knows when they can decide to beat innocent passenger for no reason at all. Since they got a badge, and justice system simply isn't working in Serbia, there is virtually no way to do anything about it if they decide to "practice" on you because they are bored.

It's like that poor worker guy who got overrun by mindless mob during Black Friday and died. Who is responsible for his death. Can you blame the mob? No ones fault and you get beaten to a pulp. That is why it's extremely dangerous to riot in countries of former eastern block if you don't have a backup...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 06, 2013, 12:29:54 am
Quote from: Teeth on December 05, 2013, 11:53:17 pm
What the fuck are you on about? I saw a few dozen baton swings or boot kicks deliberately aimed at his face. Also getting hit with a baton in the body can cause real damage. People have died from single punches, let alone 50 full on swings with batons. Batons are not made of foam you know. This guy could have very well died, who knows, he even might still. This is extremely far from teaching someone a lesson, this is attempted murder.

Don't think you fully appreciate what baton swings are.
What the fuck are you on about? You want to bet that he's still alive? Because he is. People die from punches because of the secondary effects, i.e falling down and hitting their head on the asphalt. This guy was already on the ground.

And I know full well what baton swings are. It's you who seems to be under the false impression that they're light sabers.

Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 11:57:45 pm
Who the fuck are you kidding here?

Those people were running away and they just beaten them to ground and continued to pummel them.

Did you even watch the video?
What does them running away have to do with anything I said?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rumblood on December 06, 2013, 12:32:13 am
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 05, 2013, 11:57:45 pm
Who the fuck are you kidding here?

Those people were running away and they just beaten them to ground and continued to pummel them.

Did you even watch the video?

Meh, I only saw one malicious blow. Most were to keep him down and not doing any real harm. However, that one fucking boot toe to the taint probably ruptured the guys prostate and you can see he very visibly reacted to that one.

Civil unrest is no joke. Many of you might have a different reaction if after laying and waiting to be surrounded by riot police the guy on the ground then calmly pulls out the grenade pin and takes out dozens of those police. Go hard or go home. Don't show up and then try to be as pacifist once blows are landing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on December 06, 2013, 12:40:51 am
And that is why only successful riots are those controlled from outside, by foreign governments and their secret services. People as typical members of some nation can't change anything. To fight organized scumbags you need to be one, plain and simple.

There was already one successful revolution in Ukraine, but that revolution had support from USA and other western countries, just like revolution in Yugoslavia. But when it comes to real people, who can't stand terror from puppet government, they don't stand a chance.

This is why I'm always saying to you americans. If "you" want to change something in your country, real american people, not some paramilitary organizations controlled from outside, you don't stand a chance. No matter how many guns or rifles you have.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 06, 2013, 12:57:04 am
Quote from: Rumblood on December 06, 2013, 12:32:13 am
Meh, I only saw one malicious blow.

I'm not sure about even one. Most of those kicks and blows have no force behind them and the ones that look like they do are aimed at areas that'll only cause bruises.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rumblood on December 06, 2013, 01:17:24 am
Quote from: Leshma on December 06, 2013, 12:40:51 am
This is why I'm always saying to you americans. If "you" want to change something in your country, real american people, not some paramilitary organizations controlled from outside, you don't stand a chance. No matter how many guns or rifles you have.

Not so. The American military consists of all members of our society. It is never ever an "us" vs "them" where one of the parties is the military. Additionally, our civil police forces and national defense forces are separate units with their own chains of command and own realms of authority. So when things get out of hand between civil leaders and population centers, there is a 3rd party consisting of all groups of Americans. That's why the dialogue can be so stupidly vitriolic. No single political entity controls the weapons to dominate the rest.
So while our leaders sound like a bunch of 2 year olds squabbling over a chocolate bar, other than the occasional hair pulling, it doesn't get far beyond that because it can't without going full retard civil war. Everybody is armed and belongs to our enforcement entities, meaning those entities would be too busy fighting themselves. Witness the civil rights movements. When George Wallace would have used his state police to discriminate against its citizens, the National Guard was called out instead.

So while you are right that it doesn't matter how many guns each side has, it is because of how our society is organized, not because a single entity can oppress the rest.

Quote from: Xant on December 06, 2013, 12:57:04 am
I'm not sure about even one. Most of those kicks and blows have no force behind them and the ones that look like they do are aimed at areas that'll only cause bruises.

Haha, no that one did  :lol: Point of boot ---> Prostate. I'm betting less than 5lbs of force applied like that could cause some very serious damage.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Switchtense on December 06, 2013, 01:38:12 am
Of course what those riot troops do is not right, but its somewhat understandable
people throw bricks at you, fire bombs, whatever they can find that might harm you

and in the beginning you basically have to take the beating, until you get the order to "engage"
and if you get the chance to let off some steam, in this case a guy laying on the ground being beaten half unconscious, then you might just snap and give him another few beatings

in the end of the day we are all human, whether we wear a balaclava and black clothes, or a riot-squad outfit - everybody can only take so much before they snap
who knows what this riot squad in the video has been through that night already

that doesnt justify what they do, but at least i can understand it to some extent.

however the overall "im with the police, you are scum" attitude that leshma kind of described is definitely shit, a proper law enforcement, which actual rules that are being followed etc, is a foundation for a happy society
if people feel opressed, they are more likely to raise their fists, sadly corruption occures more and more often, in fact im not even surprised hearing it everyday
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on December 06, 2013, 01:59:43 am
Why would Ukrainians want to join the European Jewnion Union anyway?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: MountedRhader on December 06, 2013, 10:38:41 am
Quote from: Xside on December 06, 2013, 12:04:16 am
We had the same situation few months ago in my country. Different reasons but same goal. For now there are nothing, it all stopped and waiting for the next election. The problem is we don't trust the system. How can you trust a system with a computer counting the votes? I was in all protests so i saw the anger on both sides. Due to recent history of my country it's really dangerous to fight back against police. So all we can do is fall back and regroup. I'm still reading the recent history and listening the olders. They were all saying ''You guys doing nothing, in our time police was the one who surrenders'' and it's all true. I'm thinking about this almost everyday, we are loosing cause we are always thinking about the consequence. When nobody trusts the sytem(election,judgement etc etc...) anarchy is needed.

Few example about what happened in my country.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

When no one trusts the system, it is time for revolution. It is time for good, passionate men to march.


& You won't find revolution within the fattened middle class bourgeois, I will add. They believe they themselves have far too big a stake in the leftovers of the decaying taint to dare risk such an end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Berserkadin on December 06, 2013, 10:42:10 am
Cocksweat
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 06, 2013, 10:58:14 am
Quote from: Xant on December 06, 2013, 12:29:54 am
What the fuck are you on about? You want to bet that he's still alive? Because he is. People die from punches because of the secondary effects, i.e falling down and hitting their head on the asphalt. This guy was already on the ground.
Right, so you think that this senseless violence is ok because the guy is alive? Remind me to steer clear of Finland ok?

Quote
And I know full well what baton swings are. It's you who seems to be under the false impression that they're light sabers.
They are not lightsabers, they are sticks made of hard materials that can easily break limbs.

Quote
What does them running away have to do with anything I said?

There is no point in beating them like that, if they have beaten the guy down and gave him cuffs, then it would be fine. But they just went ahead and continued to beat the guy like a bunch of gypsies.

The point is that what they did was completely wrong, regardless of how you look at it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 06, 2013, 12:50:33 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 06, 2013, 10:58:14 am
Right, so you think that this senseless violence is ok because the guy is alive? Remind me to steer clear of Finland ok?
 They are not lightsabers, they are sticks made of hard materials that can easily break limbs.

There is no point in beating them like that, if they have beaten the guy down and gave him cuffs, then it would be fine. But they just went ahead and continued to beat the guy like a bunch of gypsies.

The point is that what they did was completely wrong, regardless of how you look at it.
Easily break limbs...  :lol: Too many video games.

And no, whether it was wrong or not obviously depends entirely on how you look at it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 06, 2013, 01:07:00 pm
There's a difference between protest and riots. I don't suppose those guys were so gentle before the police charged. Now, actual police would arrest them instead of just beating.

Also let's not be distracted. The real issue is that Russia is figuratively holding a handgun towards Ukraine's forehead, whispering "don't join the European Union".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on December 06, 2013, 01:18:33 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 06, 2013, 01:07:00 pm
Also let's not be distracted. The real issue is that Russia is figuratively holding a handgun towards Ukraine's forehead, whispering "don't join the European Union".
True. Protests started after UA president decided that uniting with Russia is better than with EU. Poor Saruman, allying with Mordor was a bad decision.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 06, 2013, 01:36:02 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on December 06, 2013, 12:32:13 am
Meh, I only saw one malicious blow. Most were to keep him down and not doing any real harm. However, that one fucking boot toe to the taint probably ruptured the guys prostate and you can see he very visibly reacted to that one.

Civil unrest is no joke. Many of you might have a different reaction if after laying and waiting to be surrounded by riot police the guy on the ground then calmly pulls out the grenade pin and takes out dozens of those police. Go hard or go home. Don't show up and then try to be as pacifist once blows are landing.

If he truly had a frag and wanted to blow himself up, he would have done it regardless if they have been beating him or not.
Besides there is no point in blowing yourself with a grenade that you can just throw at them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on December 06, 2013, 01:54:56 pm
Most of the policemen that came in waves didnt know that he had been beaten up already and though the guy had to be controlled with a baton. By controlled I mean, asserted whether he was in a rebellious - neutralized - dead state, and hitting something with a blunt object is the best way to appraise this!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on December 06, 2013, 01:56:59 pm
cant blame them kicking a guy when hes down is how they were taught! proof?

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/grey-order-training-video-unveilled/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 07, 2013, 11:46:57 am
Quote from: Xant on December 06, 2013, 12:50:33 pm
Easily break limbs...  :lol: Too many video games.

And no, whether it was wrong or not obviously depends entirely on how you look at it.

Too many video games?

http://www.tbotech.com/police-batons.htm

Quote
Both of these police batons are highly effective for their intended purpose. However, proper training in their use is highly recommended to become most proficient. In both offensive and defensive uses, either of these police weapons can inflict serious damage including broken bones. Proper use of force should always be adhered to.

Spin hit with a tonfa (spin hit means you grip the side handle, swing, and as you are in midswing, let the handle a bit loose, which results in the baton spinning, gaining aditional energy) can shatter your skull if used with enough force, let alone breaking bones.

Now I dont know about you, but while they did not use this technique, they were still hitting him with enough force break his spine, and that guy was lucky that he was not on the ground with his face up, otherwise, I can guarantee you he would had a handful of broken ribs.

It is more likely you who lives in the world of video games where batons do nothing but x points of blunt damage, but the reality is that those weapons can even kill.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Elmuri on December 07, 2013, 12:27:41 pm
meanwhile in Finland...

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 12:36:41 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 07, 2013, 11:46:57 am
Too many video games?
Yep, probably ninja related too, given your lulzy tonfa explanation.
That guy'll have a couple bruises at most, probably in his legs. Nothing dangerous.

Better watch out by the way, babies are dangerous, they "can" break your bones.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 07, 2013, 12:40:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 07, 2013, 12:36:41 pm
Yep, probably ninja related too, given your lulzy tonfa explanation.
That guy'll have a couple bruises at most, probably in his legs. Nothing dangerous.

Better watch out by the way, babies are dangerous, they "can" break your bones.

Lulzy? Please go ahead and educate yourself on tonfa weapon and its techniques, because you obviously have no idea what are you talking about.

Now I realise you are probably trolling. Either that, or you are blind and ignorant beyond comparsion. Either way, you are not worth any more of my words.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on December 07, 2013, 01:19:39 pm
Quote from: elmuri on December 07, 2013, 12:27:41 pm
meanwhile in Finland...


POLICE BRUTALITY D:

Everyone's too drunk to riot in Finland
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 01:57:25 pm
Quote from: Nightmare798 on December 07, 2013, 12:40:21 pm
Lulzy? Please go ahead and educate yourself on tonfa weapon and its techniques, because you obviously have no idea what are you talking about.

Now I realise you are probably trolling. Either that, or you are blind and ignorant beyond comparsion. Either way, you are not worth any more of my words.

Hahhah, tonfa techniques.. Nightmare plz
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on December 07, 2013, 02:14:46 pm
that is what anarchists deserver
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:23:52 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 05, 2013, 09:53:48 pm
I don't see the issue. If the rioters got out of control, they should get a beating. Teach them to act like imbeciles.
Quote from: Xant on December 05, 2013, 11:26:30 pm
The police on the video are clearly not aiming to do any real damage to the guy. Just giving him a few kicks for good measure; if anything, the problem with Western police is that they've been too pussified and have to treat people with silk gloves.
This is the amerimy old friend that claims he needs firearms to protect himself from his government and to shoot up a school with teenagers in danger to be future democrate voters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 03:27:42 pm
Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:23:52 pm
This is the amerimy old friend that claims he needs firearms to protect himself from his government and to shoot up a school with teenagers in danger to be future democrate voters.
Yes, it's not like my nationality could be divined from my custom title or anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:32:29 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 07, 2013, 03:27:42 pm
Yes, it's not like my nationality could be divined from my custom title or anything.
Makes it even worse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 03:37:45 pm
Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:32:29 pm
Makes it even worse.
Agreed; it makes it even worse you'd announce me an amerimy old friend - despite the fact that I've never said I'm American - when it even says "Finnish" under my name. Talk about powers of observation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:41:39 pm
No it makes it worse because now you are the shame of the EU without being indoctrinated by whatever americans get exposed to.

Plus you are still a hypocrite for allowing this and not being able to live without a weapon to kill the police officer that knocks on your front door..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 03:47:46 pm
Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:41:39 pm
No it makes it worse because now you are the shame of the EU without being indoctrinated by whatever americans get exposed to.

Plus you are still a hypocrite for allowing this and not being able to live without a weapon to kill the police officer that knocks on your front door..
You're arguing against a horrible straw man in the first place, and you got my nationality wrong. Therefore, it is you who is indoctrinated, not I. And besides, you think slavery is right.

I'm not a hypocrite, but I'd be delighted to see you try and show me how I'm one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:53:32 pm
Lol what is this? Do you call this arguing?
Gg, bye, hf.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 07, 2013, 03:57:00 pm
wat dis
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 03:57:42 pm
Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 03:53:32 pm
Lol what is this? Do you call this arguing?
Gg, bye, hf.
Yes, you better go, we don't take kindly to your kind of slaver-loving 18th-century South Africans here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 04:27:35 pm
You are not making any sense, you sound like a real american
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 04:32:12 pm
Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 04:27:35 pm
You are not making any sense, you sound like a real american
Well, a Brazilian like you who claims that aliens killed Bush would say something like that, wouldn't he.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Varadin on December 07, 2013, 06:21:51 pm
i was there , running from cops :)

was like FITE ME and than they charged and i run the hell out of there :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 07:09:31 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 07, 2013, 04:32:12 pm
Well, a Brazilian like you who claims that aliens killed Bush would say something like that, wouldn't he.
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/guns-guns-and-more-guns-hosted-by-inbred-redneck-antiblitz-ameritrash/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2013, 07:20:28 pm
Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 07, 2013, 07:09:31 pm

I'm sorry, but my mom said not to click the links of strange Japanese men who dress in mini-skirts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Banok on December 07, 2013, 08:23:02 pm
wow I realise police beat riots alot but jesus there is about 500 policemen in that street, barely see any opposition and about 100 of those 500 all beat that same guy. I mean spread the love.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on December 07, 2013, 10:02:52 pm
This is sad but: give unintelligent people who are huge inferiority complexes (and tbh, they are not wrong, their parents were wrong for having them) in a country that has not yet learnt to silence it's political dissenters in an efficient way a weapon and this is the tip of the iceberg.

The goverment there is not more corrupt or inneficient than anywhere else. The police are no different to anywhere else. They jus havent managed to systematically beat the resistance out of everyone yet. Give them time, and they will.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on December 07, 2013, 10:56:46 pm
What is this protest about? That's a fuck ton of officials.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on December 08, 2013, 11:59:08 am
Quote from: TheDashingRogue on December 06, 2013, 10:38:41 am
When no one trusts the system, it is time for revolution. It is time for good, passionate men to march.


& You won't find revolution within the fattened middle class bourgeois, I will add. They believe they themselves have far too big a stake in the leftovers of the decaying taint to dare risk such an end.


Well they have tried revolution in 70s/80s. Ended up with army, took control and they have executed the peoples who wanted revolution(One of them was 16 years old). Now it's like the begining of thoose days and the situation is worse cause the governement controls the army. So, if you don't want a civil war revolution is out of the table in my country...


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on December 08, 2013, 12:15:35 pm
My french revolutionnaric heart will always beat for the unarmed man on ground VS 5 or more armored and armed guys around him beating him... whoever he is, whatever he did...

not only in Russia or Ukraine...




Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on December 08, 2013, 05:28:44 pm
Protesters in Ukraine have toppled a statue of Vladimir Lenin in Kiev as hundreds of thousands flooded the capital.

Police said people wearing masks pulled down the statue of the Russian revolutionary leader in the centre of the city.



looks like its kicking up a notch
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 08, 2013, 05:48:04 pm
Quote from: Osiris on December 08, 2013, 05:28:44 pm
Protesters in Ukraine have toppled a statue of Vladimir Lenin in Kiev as hundreds of thousands flooded the capital.

Police said people wearing masks pulled down the statue of the Russian revolutionary leader in the centre of the city.



looks like its kicking up a notch

Wait...

there was still a Lenin statue in the middle of Kiev ? Dafuq
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on December 08, 2013, 06:17:40 pm
Funny how every policeman thinks he has to hit the guy one time to be one of the cool guys.
Scumbags...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 08, 2013, 06:56:11 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 08, 2013, 05:48:04 pm
Wait...

there was still a Lenin statue in the middle of Kiev ? Dafuq

This pretty much, wtf?

I didn't know that o_O
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on December 08, 2013, 06:58:34 pm
Why not?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 08, 2013, 08:38:00 pm
Quote from: Logen on December 08, 2013, 06:58:34 pm
Why not?

I would have guessed that kind of USSR monuments were destroyed in satellite countries during the early nineties.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on December 08, 2013, 08:39:51 pm
Ukraine is not that kind of a country. Ukraine and Russia are quite similar. It's not like relationship Russia has/had with Baltic countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on December 09, 2013, 12:56:16 am
Over 1 million rally in Kiev:


Guy at the protest:

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They also tore down the Lenin statue (in Kiev):

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 09, 2013, 01:00:04 am
Quote from: Leshma on December 08, 2013, 08:39:51 pm
Ukraine is not that kind of a country. Ukraine and Russia are quite similar. It's not like relationship Russia has/had with Baltic countries.

The ukrainian urban youth doesn't seem too happy with that though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on December 09, 2013, 03:15:14 am
Quote from: Nessaj on December 09, 2013, 12:56:16 am

They also tore down the Lenin statue (in Kiev):


Good to see that guy doing some nice hard work with that sledgehammer, would have made Lenin proud.

EDIT: on a serious note; what are these lot hoping to achieve at the moment?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 09, 2013, 04:58:17 am
Quote from: Kafein on December 09, 2013, 01:00:04 am
The ukrainian urban youth doesn't seem too happy with that though.

Free yourself from the chains of Russian imperialism! Vive la revol.....oh wait. And ye, they had a Lenin statue. Ukraine and Belarus are basically Russias puppets. As a citizen of an ex-USSR state I cant help but to feel happy for em. That they finally catched a clue.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 09, 2013, 05:51:47 am
Quote from: BlindGuy on December 09, 2013, 03:15:14 am
EDIT: on a serious note; what are these lot hoping to achieve at the moment?

Well they destroyed a Lenin statue, whatever it is, it can't be that bad.

(Release from russia's power grip probably)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on December 09, 2013, 09:44:14 am
Quote from: Nessaj on December 09, 2013, 12:56:16 am
Over 1 million rally in Kiev:

10 times more than it was in Russia when Russians asked Putin to GTFO  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on December 09, 2013, 12:37:52 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 09, 2013, 01:00:04 am
The ukrainian urban youth doesn't seem too happy with that though.

Ukrainian youth is jobless, broke and pretty much pissed off. Like youth in every other post soviet country. It's not hard to mobilize them for whatever cause, if you know how to do it.

Leaders of these demonstrations, revolution, whatever, are the same scum as those currently in power. They are doing this to stop being the horse and become a rider instead, for few years to come.

There is no real revolution without blood. Ukrainians already did same shit years before and it didn't work. Same happened in my country and it didn't work. If you want it properly done, some heads gotta roll.

They probably expect their country to move away from Russian influence and go towards Europe but that's not possible because of location and other factors. There are big businesses going through Ukraine, which are controlled by Russians. EU is only doing this to get some leverage in the future, not because they care about Ukrainian people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on December 09, 2013, 12:43:06 pm
Check my analogy "The Ladder and the Fruit Tree" in the church/state thread. No more needs to be said.

There is no changing peoples greed. A revolution is essentially what it says, a TURN of a WHEEL, the wheel goes around, it makes a revolution, and everything stays the same.

One state will not change the situation. One million people will not change the situation.


But that Hussar on his horse is the most epic guy I've seen in weeks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 09, 2013, 01:05:18 pm
Quote from: Leshma on December 09, 2013, 12:37:52 pm
Ukrainian youth is jobless, broke and pretty much pissed off. Like youth in every other post soviet country. It's not hard to mobilize them for whatever cause, if you know how to do it.

Leaders of these demonstrations, revolution, whatever, are the same scum as those currently in power. They are doing this to stop being the horse and become a rider instead, for few years to come.

There is no real revolution without blood. Ukrainians already did same shit years before and it didn't work. Same happened in my country and it didn't work. If you want it properly done, some heads gotta roll.

They probably expect their country to move away from Russian influence and go towards Europe but that's not possible because of location and other factors. There are big businesses going through Ukraine, which are controlled by Russians. EU is only doing this to get some leverage in the future, not because they care about Ukrainian people.

Different leaders and would-be leaders are from the same kind of demographics, everywhere you look. Usually, countries started taking off once they got one "corruption stops at the door of my office" kind of guy for a few years, which may take time and luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on December 09, 2013, 03:02:07 pm
Quote from: Leshma on December 09, 2013, 12:37:52 pm
(click to show/hide)

Totally agree.
But to debate there must be at least 2 point of views so:

Like BlindGuy/Kafein said, its an ultimate truth that cannot be changed, people want a change only if they think they will benefit from it.


I will add that a revolution - or turn of the wheel of history- doesnt necessarily mean that it goes around in a circle, changing nothing. I believe that at each new turn, we are going farther and farther from our humble beginning.

Let the wheel turn!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on December 09, 2013, 03:47:36 pm
Quote from: Butan on December 09, 2013, 03:02:07 pm
Totally agree.
But to debate there must be at least 2 point of views so:

Like BlindGuy/Kafein said, its an ultimate truth that cannot be changed, people want a change only if they think they will benefit from it.


I will add that a revolution - or turn of the wheel of history- doesnt necessarily mean that it goes around in a circle, changing nothing. I believe that at each new turn, we are going farther and farther from our humble beginning.

Let the wheel turn!

I like the thinking that as a wheel, we are travelling with each revolution, but I'm not sure I fancy the destination.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 09, 2013, 03:59:52 pm
Well, I sure would not have fancied the Ancien Régime
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on December 09, 2013, 10:31:39 pm
Probably not, but with my statement I didn't just mean those guys in UKR, but all of us. We seem to have lost that spirit that sent men to space and now we send people to bankruptcy instead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 10, 2013, 12:47:56 am
Quote from: BlindGuy on December 09, 2013, 10:31:39 pm
Probably not, but with my statement I didn't just mean those guys in UKR, but all of us. We seem to have lost that spirit that sent men to space and now we send people to bankruptcy instead.

Space programs didn't stop, they just got less impressive to the public.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on December 11, 2013, 08:11:34 am
Well, I am personally really impressed. But we need to go further, find out more, and send a fucking proble to Wolf356 of w/e its called (I can find it just forgot) the planet in the Milky way that everyone from Dr. Carl Sagan to the Portuguese airforce knows has life on it, and see if they are 1/ correct that there is life there, and 2/ see if its at a level that we can communicate with it (too advanced or too backward and we will be wasting our time trying to communicate).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 11, 2013, 08:15:01 am
How could life be "too advanced" for communication to be possible?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on December 11, 2013, 08:45:17 am
Maybe they are beyond pressing simple air through a tube of meat but communicate on a level of light and thought... *written with the voice of some esoteric douche in mind* :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 11, 2013, 11:56:23 am
Quote from: Xant on December 11, 2013, 08:15:01 am
How could life be "too advanced" for communication to be possible?

Are we as humans able to communicate with other species through odors ? In short, no. Of course this is not a fitting analogy because odor communication doesn't involve technology. But I don't think many humans are still able to read smoke clouds either. So maybe, maybe very advanced civilizations would be too advanced to establish contact easily with us. Also mind you, they may (and probably do) have extremely different technological evolution, as it is clear human technological advancement has been predominantly governed by geopolitics. So they could be using gravitational waves without knowing what a radio is, although that sounds very unlikely. Finally, we don't know what materials are available to those alien species. We are very lucky to have found things like palladium on Earth, and countless other resources that exist in very limited supply yet are critical to modern technologies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 11, 2013, 05:52:46 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 11, 2013, 11:56:23 am
Are we as humans able to communicate with other species through odors ?
Irrelevant; though humans actually can "read" what the odors are saying.
Quote from: Kafein on December 11, 2013, 11:56:23 am
But I don't think many humans are still able to read smoke clouds either.
So what? If it was another species communicating to us via smoke clouds, it would be decoded.

Quote from: Kafein on December 11, 2013, 11:56:23 am
So maybe, maybe very advanced civilizations would be too advanced to establish contact easily with us.
I find that highly unlikely. If they are "very advanced", that requires intelligence and considerable amount of technology. If they have those, they will be able to communicate.

Quote
Finally, we don't know what materials are available to those alien species. We are very lucky to have found things like palladium on Earth, and countless other resources that exist in very limited supply yet are critical to modern technologies.
The premise is that they are very advanced.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on December 11, 2013, 06:08:27 pm
They are could even be so advanced that they are invisible (in the sense that we have no way to tell they "are") or extinct. Oh, we were talking about Ukraine?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on January 21, 2014, 12:59:35 pm
Mount and Blade 2: Ukraine

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: the real god emperor on January 21, 2014, 02:05:39 pm
We charged the riot before it was cool!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on January 21, 2014, 02:06:47 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: the real god emperor on January 21, 2014, 02:08:40 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on January 21, 2014, 02:06:47 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot

Did I use a word wrong or something? :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on January 21, 2014, 03:01:44 pm
No, was just trying to point to the fact that police are often instigators of riots themselves. Nothing to do with your post, though I can see why you ask :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on January 21, 2014, 04:26:29 pm
Quote from: Yarl on January 21, 2014, 12:59:35 pm
Mount and Blade 2: Ukraine

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)


I saw that trebuchet today in TV, but they didn't show other stuff, hilarious  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 21, 2014, 04:27:26 pm
A 14/88 shield? Seriously?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 21, 2014, 04:59:17 pm
Quote from: Christo on January 21, 2014, 04:27:26 pm
A 14/88 shield? Seriously?

What does it mean
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on January 21, 2014, 05:04:37 pm
btw

Kafein style  :wink:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 21, 2014, 05:05:39 pm
Quote from: Kafein on January 21, 2014, 04:59:17 pm
What does it mean

u kant b srs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 21, 2014, 06:34:00 pm
Quote from: Christo on January 21, 2014, 05:05:39 pm
u kant b srs

I kant haendel how bach your puns are. But not seriously I don't know what this shit means, is it cookie stuff
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 21, 2014, 06:35:45 pm
Quote from: Kafein on January 21, 2014, 06:34:00 pm
I kant haendel how bach your puns are. But not seriously I don't know what this shit means, is it cookie stuff

yes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 21, 2014, 06:42:47 pm
Quote from: Kafein on January 21, 2014, 06:34:00 pm
I kant haendel how bach your puns are. But not seriously I don't know what this shit means, is it cookie stuff

I bring forth the answer to you from the arcane depths of google (it's understandable you didn't find it, had to use a search word as obscure as "14 88")

a term recognized by white supremists.

14 representing 14 words written by David Lane, "We must secure the existance of our people and a future for white children."

88 representing David Lane's 88 precepts, or sometimes the eighth letter in the alphabet (H), to represent Heil einstein.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on January 21, 2014, 07:06:08 pm
Quote from: Christo on January 21, 2014, 04:27:26 pm
A 14/88 shield? Seriously?
A lot of football hooligans took part there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lars on January 22, 2014, 12:10:50 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on January 22, 2014, 12:16:16 pm
Thanks Ukraine for this

(click to show/hide)


It reminds me that day

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on January 22, 2014, 06:32:52 pm
Quote from: Lars on January 22, 2014, 12:10:50 pm
(click to show/hide)

This is the original video, which has better quality and no liveleak tag etc.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2014, 06:56:24 pm
Imagine that in the US with half those protesters equipped with a proper firearm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jarold on January 22, 2014, 07:00:28 pm
We'd be gassed like crazy and then we'd all run and disperse because of it and then they'd subdue the ones that stayed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2014, 07:06:01 pm
But at least some policemen would be dead at the end of the day don't you think ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 22, 2014, 07:29:55 pm
Responsible adults with a firearm licence do not form the majority of those kind of demonstration. And even if they did they would not be stupid enough to snipe policemen on the streets, at least until a real civil war broke out like in Syria. And then they would not have the police but the army in front of them, against their civilian pistols and rifles.
The government is most of the time ahead of things with the counter-violence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jarold on January 22, 2014, 07:37:34 pm
Well we don't have much to riot about here other than Twinkies being discontinued. Even if there was a riot no one would be stupid enough to start shooting at police. Well...maybe..but everyone else would run when that happens. :P

Why would you want the police dead anyways, kill the leaders. :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on January 22, 2014, 08:01:10 pm
It's much more effective for them to infiltrate, subdue and undermine any dissent from inside anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 22, 2014, 08:05:47 pm
Quote from: Lars on January 22, 2014, 12:10:50 pm
(click to show/hide)
Not cool - those are people burning there... not cool at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on January 22, 2014, 09:33:30 pm
Quote from: Lars on January 22, 2014, 12:10:50 pm
Similar behavior to every cRPG bridge map.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lennu on January 22, 2014, 10:12:37 pm
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out#

Livestream, dunno where exactly. But people using some makeshift shields as cover throwing tires into tire-fire-wall.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Conquisitore on January 22, 2014, 10:24:24 pm
love this stream :D

In germany the Cobs normaly have to wear a "serial key" on their uniform when they beat up a riot, so you can report them if they fuck you, but most of them wear it on their back so you wont be able to see it and you wont be able to hit "ctrl + m".

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on January 22, 2014, 11:01:36 pm
The problem with theese fights against the police is that the ones who get harmed are not the ones responsible.
Why in earth would try to wound or burn a policeman, I mean seriously, they are normal men with a family who
who have to do their job to get money, like all of us.
If theese fuckers would actually fight the politicians responsible for the madness in UKraine, I would maybe be able
to understand it but harming innocent ppl is just plain bullshit and non controlled agression.
If people would start thinking, we wouldn't have all this madness (and maybe better politicians...).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Conquisitore on January 22, 2014, 11:26:22 pm
Since you are german you will understand it:
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/streit-um-polizeieinsatz-gegen-blockupy-demo-in-frankfurt-a-903344.html

Quote
Die Polizei hatte rund 900 Demonstranten über Stunden eingekesselt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But anyways, you cant compare the situation in the Ukraine to Germany, but the Police is a tool of the rich people and their interests and nothing else, even if the single officer is clean, the whole system dirty

So if you try to fight the police you dont fight the single cop, its a sign against the whole system, same story for the riot, a single demonstrant can be an asshole/nice guy, but he fights for a good/bad story.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on January 22, 2014, 11:32:37 pm
Quote from: Conquisitore on January 22, 2014, 11:26:22 pm
Since you are german you will understand it:
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/streit-um-polizeieinsatz-gegen-blockupy-demo-in-frankfurt-a-903344.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But anyways, you cant compare the situation in the Ukraine to Germany, but the Police is a tool of the rich people and their interests and nothing else, even if the single officer is clean, the whole system dirty

So if you try to fight the police you dont fight the single cop, its a sign against the whole system, same story for the riot, a single demonstrant can be an asshole/nice guy, but he fights for a good/bad story.

So if you destroy a police officers life it's his fault because he represents a system?
I don't wanna say all cops (we all know lot's of cases of the police goin over the top on demonstrations and elsewhere) are good but that shitty hate against all cops is just dumb.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 23, 2014, 12:02:14 am
Quote from: sF_Guardian on January 22, 2014, 11:32:37 pm
..but that shitty hate against all cops is just dumb.

fukk da polis 420 #YOLO
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on January 23, 2014, 01:15:04 am
Quote from: Christo on January 23, 2014, 12:02:14 am
fukk da polis 420 #YOLO

You're EON's new drama king or what?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 23, 2014, 01:32:32 am
Quote from: sF_Guardian on January 23, 2014, 01:15:04 am
You're EON's new drama king or what?

EON?

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 23, 2014, 01:37:55 am
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2014, 08:05:47 pm
Not cool - those are people burning there... not cool at all.

I've been set on fire like that, when I was a little girl.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 23, 2014, 01:51:14 am
Quote from: Leshma on January 23, 2014, 01:37:55 am
I've been set on fire like that, when I was a little girl.

Thats when the personality shift occured?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ToniTcc on January 23, 2014, 01:57:00 am
(click to show/hide)

Choose your class wisely
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 23, 2014, 02:19:01 am
Quote from: Butan on January 23, 2014, 01:51:14 am
Thats when the personality shift occured?

No, there was no actual harm. Winter jacket was completely ruined. Kids, do not mix matches with gasoline canisters, it's dangerous. My stupid half brother wasn't aware of that.

Personality shift happened 15 years later, after I barely survived drowning. You would be surprised how much person change after such an event. You look on life differently.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jarold on January 23, 2014, 02:19:28 am
Quote from: Christo on January 23, 2014, 01:32:32 am
EON?

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You don't know EON?!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on January 23, 2014, 03:59:06 am
LIVE FEED!!!!

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on January 23, 2014, 04:20:32 am
LIVE FEED II  !!!!


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on January 23, 2014, 04:21:30 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on January 23, 2014, 11:12:02 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on January 23, 2014, 12:44:35 pm
It may look funny, but it is not.  Majdan.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 23, 2014, 01:55:00 pm
3 steps to become new president of a modern country without proper elections:


1. claim actual president is corrupted
2. encourage peaceful protests to the point of violence
3. use wounded and dead people as stepping stone to power

4th bonus step:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on January 23, 2014, 02:02:48 pm
Quote from: Butan on January 23, 2014, 01:55:00 pm
3 steps to become new president of a modern country without proper elections:


1. claim actual president is corrupted
2. encourage peaceful protests to the point of violence
3. use wounded and dead people as stepping stone to power

4th bonus step:
(click to show/hide)

any examples?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 23, 2014, 02:17:00 pm
What's the point of these protests? Seems pretty dumb to continue them for this long.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on January 23, 2014, 02:21:44 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 23, 2014, 02:17:00 pm
What's the point of these protests? Seems pretty dumb to continue them for this long.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on January 23, 2014, 02:33:43 pm
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2014, 08:05:47 pm
Not cool - those are people burning there... not cool at all.

Yeah, well, things are tough all over. And while they're people, they're not exactly the nicest people.



As for molotovs:
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Xant on January 23, 2014, 02:17:00 pm
What's the point of these protests? Seems pretty dumb to continue them for this long.

Did you not hear about the new set of laws? I think the point is to tell the government to go fuck themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on January 23, 2014, 02:51:41 pm
Quote from: Torben on January 23, 2014, 02:02:48 pm
any examples?

Thailand is doing a turn of that circle atm.


This vid in the post above is terriffying shit. It's frustrating taht there are so many shitheads in the police aswell, at least if you judge it by the video. I bet everyone of the jerks hitting that guy feels really cool about beating someone who is already ready to go into a hospital. Sadly there are jerks everywhere...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 23, 2014, 02:56:44 pm
Quote from: sF_Guardian on January 23, 2014, 02:51:41 pm
Thailand is doing a turn of that circle atm.

Not to add all revolutions I heard from were all basically stolen from people not coming from those revolutions.
All others were just stomped to the ground.

The media impedes real revolutions from happening (oh noes, blood is bad! peaceful only!), and the modern repressive tools stop any revolution leader from emerging (that guy is leading this mob, he's a terrorist lets put him in jail!).


Maybe it was pretty much like that since forever, just with more primitive tools, but its very sad to hear that recently formed government are doing pretty much the same shit all over again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: stukii on January 23, 2014, 03:04:56 pm
Recent video
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=911_1390295593
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 23, 2014, 03:15:41 pm
Quote from: okiN on January 23, 2014, 02:33:43 pm
Did you not hear about the new set of laws? I think the point is to tell the government to go fuck themselves.
By getting beat up?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on January 23, 2014, 03:18:55 pm
Hey, at least they're trying. There's also talk of international sanctions against the Ukraine over this shit, so there's that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on January 23, 2014, 03:26:45 pm
Quote from: okiN on January 23, 2014, 03:18:55 pm
Hey, at least they're trying. There's also talk of international sanctions against the Ukraine over this shit, so there's that.

Being as effective as in Syria or Iran?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 23, 2014, 03:28:40 pm
Well, I guess if you don't mind possibly dying or getting permanently injured in the hope of some international sanctions that could potentially maybe be effective, then sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on January 23, 2014, 03:31:37 pm
It's not exactly like they have a lot of other options. It's either protest or let Yanukovych have his way.

Quote from: sF_Guardian on January 23, 2014, 03:26:45 pm
Being as effective as in Syria or Iran?  :lol:

Probably, but what can you do?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: wayyyyyne on January 23, 2014, 03:52:15 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on January 23, 2014, 03:57:54 pm
"New laws "rammed through" the Ukraine parliament to curb protests are "anti-democratic," US Secretary of State John Kerry said Friday, adding that the legislation also violated EU norms.

"We believe deeply that the people of Ukraine want to affiliate, they want to be associated with Europe," Kerry said, noting the new laws "are anti-democratic, they're wrong, they are taking from the people of Ukraine, their choice and their opportunity for the future.""

Thanks Kerry, where were you when Occupy Wall Street was going on?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 23, 2014, 03:58:33 pm
Quote from: sF_Guardian on January 23, 2014, 02:51:41 pm
This vid in the post above is terriffying shit. It's frustrating taht there are so many shitheads in the police aswell, at least if you judge it by the video. I bet everyone of the jerks hitting that guy feels really cool about beating someone who is already ready to go into a hospital. Sadly there are jerks everywhere...

Well, policemen are a part of society, they are no different from the rest of population. Same goes for politicians. That is why i dont really "believe" in civil wars and such. You will end up having same shit as before, probably even worse. I don't know why exactly, or at what point a society begin producing fanatic savages - intolerant, deaf and blind to any arguments, but when it happened - it's time to pack and move on!
 
I am not taking sides with anyone in Ukraine or Syria - imo they are all wrong. Nothing good comes out of it, only broken promises, false hopes, poverty, humiliation, repressions etc.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on January 23, 2014, 04:04:49 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on January 23, 2014, 03:58:33 pm
Well, policemen are a part of society, they are no different from the rest of population. Same goes for politicians. That is why i dont really "believe" in civil wars and such. You will end up having same shit as before, probably even worse. I don't know why exactly, or at what point a society begin producing fanatic savages - intolerant, deaf and blind to any arguments, but when it happened - it's time to pack and move on!
 
I am not taking sides with anyone in Ukraine or Syria - imo they are all wrong. Nothing good comes out of it, only broken promises, false hopes, poverty, humiliation, repressions etc.

Also, most revolutions fail or end up in even worse conditions then before it happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 23, 2014, 04:17:28 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 23, 2014, 02:17:00 pm
What's the point of these protests? Seems pretty dumb to continue them for this long.

Some people want money and power. So they mobilize major crowd, while being supported from outside (money, resources). After it's done, they get their positions and power but have to give back something to foreign forces that allowed them to do this. Has nothing to do with common folks, they just act like cannon fodder.

There's a word for it, it's called transition. It happened in every post soviet block state and is happening in some even today (Ukraine is one of them). As long they are resources to steal, this will happen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on January 23, 2014, 05:43:48 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on January 23, 2014, 05:46:05 pm
Quote from: Yarl on January 23, 2014, 05:43:48 pm
(click to show/hide)

That last picture is hilarious in the context of the preceding ones.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 23, 2014, 05:57:54 pm
Every previous revolutionary movement in human history has made the same basic mistake. They’ve all seen power as a static apparatus, as a structure. And it’s not. It’s a dynamic, a flow system with two possible tendencies. Power either accumulates, or it diffuses through the system. In most societies, it’s in accumulative mode, and most revolutionary movements are only really interested in reconstituting the accumulation in a new location. A genuine revolution has to reverse the flow. And no one ever does that, because they’re all too fucking scared of losing their conning tower moment in the historical process. If you tear down one agglutinative power dynamic and put another one in its place, you’ve changed nothing. You’re not going to solve any of that society’s problems, they’ll just reemerge at a new angle. You’ve got to set up the nanotech that will deal with the problems on its own. You’ve got to build the structures that allow for diffusion of power, not re-grouping. Accountability, demodynamic access, systems of constituted rights, education in the use of political infrastructure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jarold on January 23, 2014, 06:58:46 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 23, 2014, 05:57:54 pm
Every previous revolutionary movement in human history has made the same basic mistake. They’ve all seen power as a static apparatus, as a structure. And it’s not. It’s a dynamic, a flow system with two possible tendencies. Power either accumulates, or it diffuses through the system. In most societies, it’s in accumulative mode, and most revolutionary movements are only really interested in reconstituting the accumulation in a new location. A genuine revolution has to reverse the flow. And no one ever does that, because they’re all too fucking scared of losing their conning tower moment in the historical process. If you tear down one agglutinative power dynamic and put another one in its place, you’ve changed nothing. You’re not going to solve any of that society’s problems, they’ll just reemerge at a new angle. You’ve got to set up the nanotech that will deal with the problems on its own. You’ve got to build the structures that allow for diffusion of power, not re-grouping. Accountability, demodynamic access, systems of constituted rights, education in the use of political infrastructure.

Then why don't you become their leader. :P

It's a good statement though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on January 23, 2014, 07:11:57 pm
Quote from: Jarold on January 23, 2014, 06:58:46 pm
Then why don't you become their leader. :P

It's a good statement though.

I think that's mostly what he's remonstrating against.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 23, 2014, 07:12:10 pm
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What does this mean ?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 23, 2014, 07:27:08 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 23, 2014, 05:57:54 pm
Every previous revolutionary movement in human history has made the same basic mistake. They’ve all seen power as a static apparatus, as a structure. And it’s not. It’s a dynamic, a flow system with two possible tendencies. Power either accumulates, or it diffuses through the system. In most societies, it’s in accumulative mode, and most revolutionary movements are only really interested in reconstituting the accumulation in a new location. A genuine revolution has to reverse the flow. And no one ever does that, because they’re all too fucking scared of losing their conning tower moment in the historical process. If you tear down one agglutinative power dynamic and put another one in its place, you’ve changed nothing. You’re not going to solve any of that society’s problems, they’ll just reemerge at a new angle. You’ve got to set up the nanotech that will deal with the problems on its own. You’ve got to build the structures that allow for diffusion of power, not re-grouping. Accountability, demodynamic access, systems of constituted rights, education in the use of political infrastructure.
   
That is because you have an armed mob on your hands, ready and comfortable with lynching any time of the day. That's how civil wars and armed revolutions end up. You dont want those ex-revolutionary militia running a local power struggle.
Thats why the repression come - there has to be a person or a small group, who will be even more hardcore. Otherwise noone would lay their weapons down, every single uneducated revolutionary peasant fuck, would demand all sorts of privileges, in a state ravaged and destroyed by revolution. He would claim loot for his victory. In mass, both sides are just fighting - they dont really have any goals, other than survive and win. It's naive to presume, that even 1/10 of those who are fighting, have any real political motives. They do it just because everyone else do it, and they had to take side. And they WILL demand reward for their service in one form or another, and so they have to be disarmed and pacified. Pretty hard to achieve in a post-catastrophic period, without using dictatorship/terror or re-using the old institutes of government ( since everyone knows how they work, and no need to waste time on re-structuring anything, or re-educating anyone, changing monarchy with military dictatorship is easier, compared to changing religious fundamentalist dictatorship with secular liberal democracy )

Not that i really disagree with you, but i find it hard to imagine an intellectual/reasonable/coldminded armed revolution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on January 23, 2014, 08:26:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on January 23, 2014, 01:55:00 pm
3 steps to become new president of a modern country without proper elections:


1. claim actual president is corrupted
2. encourage peaceful protests to the point of violence
3. use wounded and dead people as stepping stone to power

4th bonus step:
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Xant on January 23, 2014, 02:17:00 pm
What's the point of these protests? Seems pretty dumb to continue them for this long.

It is nice to live in a rich western country with well established democracy, with very limited system corruption, social security on decent level, good health care and justice system that follows some basic rules. Living like that you can afford technocratic comments with no regard to people who actually live there. Shame on you.

People are dying there to change how they live. To change the system. Not all Ukrainian folks want that change, situation is extremely complicated and I bet that attitude to what happens there depends on where exactly you live and who you are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 23, 2014, 08:40:05 pm
Quote from: Erasmas on January 23, 2014, 08:26:57 pm
It is nice to live in a rich western country with well established democracy, with very limited system corruption, social security on decent level, good health care and justice system that follows some basic rules. Living like that you can afford technocratic comments with no regard to people who actually live there. Shame on you.

People are dying there to change how they live. To change the system. Not all Ukrainian folks want that change, situation is extremely complicated and I bet that attitude to what happens there depends on where exactly you live and who you are.

Will you please say what "Ukrainian folks" want? ( as if the police, president, and opposing citizens are not Ukrainians... ) What is this change they want?
 
"System corruption" is not an alien virus or foreign power insurgents, "system corruption" is inside citizens themselves. Who is a corrupt clerk in a city administration? Is he not a typical citizen? Did some black evil magic elevated every asshole in the country to an important position?
 
People are dying there to change how they live, you say? So did every single terrorist in the history! Death and suffering are not a proof of anything. Just because someone is willing to die or kill for an idea/belief/wish/freedom, does not justify it in any way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 23, 2014, 08:43:00 pm
Quote from: Erasmas on January 23, 2014, 08:26:57 pm
It is nice to live in a rich western country with well established democracy, with very limited system corruption, social security on decent level, good health care and justice system that follows some basic rules. Living like that you can afford technocratic comments with no regard to people who actually live there. Shame on you.
I don't see how where I live is relevant, or how my comment shows no regard for the people who live in Ukraine. I just happen to be of the opinion that either they should do it effectively or they shouldn't do it at all. "International sanctions" is not going to change anything for the power elite, they've done so many crimes that they're going to go down fighting and won't just step down because the international community decides to punish them by punishing their poor (it's not like sanctions mean anything to the rich).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on January 23, 2014, 09:02:01 pm
In a way, I think the two opposing viewpoints in here compliment one another.  They both teach us what we've done wrong in the past.  In the last decade or so there was never a time where we could pat ourselves on the back and say, "Look, we toppled the evil regime and have entered a better social reality" so to speak.  If we want to liberalize the Ukraine we don't just hold early elections, we take the measures necessary to redistribute power (a remarkably easy thing to say).  You want to emulate Poland?  Do what Poland did.  But if you need to engage in emancipatory politics then fucking do it and have a plan.  Don't become another South Africa, another Egypt, and don't ever adopt the malpractices of your predecessor.  If you become a mob of armed goons with no loyalty to the cause the fight has already been lost.  By that point you've ostracized the world, no doubt with images of beatings and massacres.  You need one cohesive programme, the only promise of new order, one worthy of the sacrifice your people are making.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on January 23, 2014, 09:18:53 pm
There's three sides to civil war or unrest: reactionaries, revolutionaries (both sides usually different kinds of autocrats/fascists) and in between them; the People.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 23, 2014, 10:44:47 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on January 23, 2014, 08:40:05 pm

"System corruption" is not an alien virus or foreign power insurgents, "system corruption" is inside citizens themselves. Who is a corrupt clerk in a city administration? Is he not a typical citizen?


Accusing all citizens of being corrupt because of actions of few individuals is just plain stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: the real god emperor on January 23, 2014, 10:51:54 pm
Riot pictures from UA are hilarious, wasnt like that when happened in Turkey  :|

I think because policemen knows what humanity means there, and knows smoke bombs and tear gas in not meant to aim at someone's head.I mean, in Turkey if you can't get in any universities, you can always take Police exams , and be a savage retard , i don't mean every cop is retarded and violent tho, there are really respectable and good cops ofc. they found out the government fraud despite of all the pressure on them (the officers in charge of this matter got fired tho -_- ) Also you people seem to be better organized , cus government blocked enternance to Facebook Twitter etc those days in Turkey...

To sum up, well played Ukraine, well played...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 24, 2014, 12:27:17 am
Quote from: Nightmare798 on January 23, 2014, 10:44:47 pm
Accusing all citizens of being corrupt because of actions of few individuals is just plain stupid.

I accuse corruption in having it's roots in local traditions/customs. Police, doctors, teachers are all ordinary people. Bribes will end, not when everyone gets rich, but when everyone stops asking for special treatment for themselves.

So what is your opinion on "corruption", "system" and bribes? Where does that shit come from?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on January 24, 2014, 12:49:14 am
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on January 23, 2014, 08:40:05 pm
Will you please say what "Ukrainian folks" want? ( as if the police, president, and opposing citizens are not Ukrainians... ) What is this change they want?
 
"System corruption" is not an alien virus or foreign power insurgents, "system corruption" is inside citizens themselves. Who is a corrupt clerk in a city administration? Is he not a typical citizen? Did some black evil magic elevated every asshole in the country to an important position?
 
People are dying there to change how they live, you say? So did every single terrorist in the history! Death and suffering are not a proof of anything. Just because someone is willing to die or kill for an idea/belief/wish/freedom, does not justify it in any way.

This, my friend, is called demagogy.

I set aside what UA guys want - that's pure politics and easy to find on google. I want to comment on corruption and sacrifice.

You are right that corruption is inside citizens.  It is a clear case when someone gives the bribe to the cop to avoid fine. What you fail to notice, however, is that there are places in the world where one needs to bribe to get majority of his/her primary needs fulfilled. Where you don't get something you should have the access to - eg. technically free health care - without bribe. Because you are expected to give it. You have to give it to get things for which the "government" claims to exist. That's what I call "system corruption". And yes - it is inside every person. But there are cases where it is not enough to say "I will not do it" to stop it. There are cases where you need a major change of the country's structure to achieve major change of human behaviour.

Your second comment I find outrageous. "People are dying there to change how they live - so did every single terrorist in the history". Maybe so. But  the same applies to every single freedom fighter around the world. People who get to arms fight tyranny, invaders, evil kings. Labourers who go out to streets to fight for better life. Death and suffering are not a proof of anything indeed. But sometimes it is just - JUST - the sacrifice one pays for a greater good of many others. And that deserves respect.

I am old enough to remember tanks and troops on the streets of the city where I was born. I can remember people being shot for what they believe. I know names of people who died for the country I live in. Holy fuck, I lost my family members because of it. And you know what? I would like to have enough courage to stand for what I believe when the time comes. And I wish you the same.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on January 24, 2014, 12:50:37 am
About corruption, what UA folks want etc: let me just show you the summer house of Angela Merkel:

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And one of Victor Yanukovych:

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Want to see more of the latter?

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 24, 2014, 01:04:40 am
Quote from: Nightmare798 on January 23, 2014, 10:44:47 pm
Accusing all citizens of being corrupt because of actions of few individuals is just plain stupid.

People are essentially monkeys. If you see everyone around smoking, it will be hard for you not to do it yourself. Role of a state is to put limits and regulations, so that crime doesn't pay off. In my country corruption is everywhere because legal system sucks and to win anything on court you need a ton of money. Otherwise you wait for ages to get justice and even then you have to pay incredible sum of money for little or no satisfaction.

In corrupted countries, most citizens are also corrupt. Those who are not, seem like fools to majority and their opinion doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on January 24, 2014, 01:12:04 am
Quote from: Leshma on January 24, 2014, 01:04:40 am
People are essentially monkeys. If you see everyone around smoking, it will be hard for you not to do it yourself. Role of a state is to put limits and regulations, so that crime doesn't pay off. In my country corruption is everywhere because legal system sucks and to win anything on court you need a ton of money. Otherwise you wait for ages to get justice and even then you have to pay incredible sum of money for little or no satisfaction.

In corrupted countries, most citizens are also corrupt. Those who are not, seem like fools to majority and their opinion doesn't matter.

This would be correct. I oft visit my family that works in the Bahamas. Corrupt as shit and you can tell, if you live there. My Dad's company "sold" to Sysco, but to sell, Sysco had to pay like 7 million to the government in "off the books" money in addition to it's like 40 million "taxes." My father is pretty high up there and said something along the lines "Man the guy in the government who set that up is living up life right now."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 24, 2014, 01:23:01 am
Quote from: Erasmas on January 24, 2014, 12:49:14 am
Your second comment I find outrageous. "People are dying there to change how they live - so did every single terrorist in the history". Maybe so. But  the same applies to every single freedom fighter around the world. People who get to arms fight tyranny, invaders, evil kings. Labourers who go out to streets to fight for better life. Death and suffering are not a proof of anything indeed. But sometimes it is just - JUST - the sacrifice one pays for a greater good of many others. And that deserves respect.

I am old enough to remember tanks and troops on the streets of the city where I was born. I can remember people being shot for what they believe. I know names of people who died for the country I live in. Holy fuck, I lost my family members because of it. And you know what? I would like to have enough courage to stand for what I believe when the time comes. And I wish you the same.

I did not meant to insult anyone personally, I am Russian after all, and bribes do not shock me as a concept :)

I am not sure what else but "demagogy" you want to find on this forum, or how yours is any better? You want to make me feel ashamed by mentioning your dead family members? I am sorry for your personal loss, but it does not make me change my mind. And yes, freedom fighters, terrorists, rebels - they are all fanatics. Freedom fighter for some, terrorist for others. f. ex.: Mandela was a well known terrorist in his time. Now he is a well known freedom fighter.

I wish you not to be in a situation, when you need to pay with your life, for anything at all. Or meet anyone who is willing to kill you, because of his beliefs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on January 24, 2014, 04:05:09 am
Corruption can be blamed on culture, but it's too easy to do that alone. It is also strongly connected to relative poverty, and not the least. A system that allows it.

I'm a norwegian living in Poland for many years. And of course, to norwegian standards Poland can be very corrupt, but it is still way way ahead of places like Russia, which gave me the impression that people are very careful what they say to powerful people, and money gets spent in very, very unproductive ways.. And that's just a brief image I got from a two week stay there.

Now.. What is funny is that we are paranoid about corruption in Norway, although it's probably extremely low, or near as low as it can get. Still there are checks on many government positions, barring people from sitting on both parts of a table, with several years of blocking etc. The press goes bananas for the smallest powerabuse by politicians.

Now.. In Poland, where corruption is actually a problem, they  are having systems (I know it from an eduaction organization) that are so terrible, with very few checks and balances. Power people in this organization really have a lot of power, and all you learn from it is to kiss their boots or get the boot.

In my school, an art school. The same teachers we have are dealing out money in commissions AFTER school, so the students that lick their asses here have much better chances later. Their is a Principals award (paid by the school), a considerable sum, which the teacher can give out to 25 teachers every year. Nothing but a thank you for support in the schools internal politics.

No wonder corruption flowers in a system that is MADE to be easily corruptible. It is a system that corrupts even the best of people, because you are either inside it, will never get in, or in case of protest, you get kicked out.

The first thing that should happen in countries like Ukraine is to change the systems, most of all the law, but also all other organizations, so they are not so easily corruptible. Now, that probably won't happen, because too many people are living from the fact that Power=Money.

(I have to say the EU is good for the system in my school. They force them to get feedback from students, teacher ratings and other checks, and slowly changes the system to a more healthy one)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on January 24, 2014, 04:07:38 am
I've been almost in every protest in my country(Turkey). I was always supporting the protests anywhere/anytime but not the violence. You always expect that the government will listen to you and find a solution. Sadly it's not possible in most of the countries. Government wants to suppress it with police. And then the violence comes. It becomes something like  ''us and them''. Both sides forgets that they are living in same country.  Revolution is a really funny term for me while the current governments can control everything judgement,education, voting system etc etc... If you don't want a civil war, revolution or anything else is out of the table with this system.  For me, european union is just a bullshit. Funny that our prime minister has a potential to become puppy for EU. Let's trade them Ukraine? Nothing gonna change i'm sure of it. So all of those deads/injuries for what?That's why i left protesting, nothing good shows up at the end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on January 24, 2014, 04:52:33 am
I personally feel that joining the EU has done a lot of good for my country. Sure, people grumble about all the policies that Brussels has basically forced down on our throats and some of those have actually been detrimental to us. However, others have steered my country a lot towards becoming a less corrupt, more economically viable and democratic country.

Still, people always see only the bad things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 24, 2014, 10:03:37 am
Just so you know, EU officials are elected too. Also don't watch/read national news if you want a fair account of EU politics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Perverz on January 24, 2014, 10:27:18 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on January 24, 2014, 11:26:45 am
Quote from: Perverz on January 24, 2014, 10:27:18 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pingpong on January 24, 2014, 02:43:47 pm
What ever happend to that other Viktor guy the former prez? Was he a corrupt conman too? He was poisoned with radioactive shit or something like that and had a disfigured face.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: FleetFox on January 24, 2014, 08:03:09 pm
Quote from: Xside on January 24, 2014, 04:07:38 am
I've been almost in every protest in my country(Turkey). I was always supporting the protests anywhere/anytime but not the violence. You always expect that the government will listen to you and find a solution. Sadly it's not possible in most of the countries. Government wants to suppress it with police. And then the violence comes. It becomes something like  ''us and them''. Both sides forgets that they are living in same country.  Revolution is a really funny term for me while the current governments can control everything judgement,education, voting system etc etc... If you don't want a civil war, revolution or anything else is out of the table with this system.  For me, european union is just a bullshit. Funny that our prime minister has a potential to become puppy for EU. Let's trade them Ukraine? Nothing gonna change i'm sure of it. So all of those deads/injuries for what?That's why i left protesting, nothing good shows up at the end.

Never give up man, it is of utmost importance you keep positive not matter what, its thanks to strong and brave people like you that any social change occurs for the good of the people, not just the bastard elites.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on January 25, 2014, 11:44:14 pm
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out)
Protesters currently storming a government building.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Adraman on January 26, 2014, 01:14:19 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on January 27, 2014, 03:20:15 am
Some brutal fighting going on.


Good shots of protesters using tactics/formations with homemade shields etc, in general there's loads of medieval equipment around. There's a video of protesters carrying a perrier (medieval traction trebuchet) through the streets visitors can't see pics , please register or login



perrier:


(click to show/hide)

There's a guy running around with a hammer and shield in one of those two videos above :O
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 27, 2014, 04:04:36 am
I was really hoping those "protesters" in the first video were going to get shot. Or at least brutally beat up. Retards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on January 27, 2014, 04:16:11 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 27, 2014, 06:18:45 am
I think seeing those last vids, its pretty clear the cycle of hatred is complete now. There is even more brutality when it comes to civilians than policemen : putting people on fire and using 2x4 beats rubber bullets and sticks.
Seeing the guy in the first vid get unshielded and repeatedly beaten in the head while he's trying to get behind his other shieldmates was just wow. And then the few isolated policemen who cant run up the stairs with the others are properly lynched, I wonder what happens to them backstage.

And all this to join a european union I'm a part of and have nothing good to say about it :P

Now to be clear I'm not naive about violence, but when you see this you cant listen seriously to those guys who talks about peaceful protestation and that we should put international sanctions on Ukraine for their undemocratic use of force. If the people of this country wish to use force to overthrow their government, then deal with the backlash without using the media as hypocratically as those they are fighting against... But I think its just going to end like all those european "revolutions" where a political party calm everyone down with promises of doing everything the protesters want, run for the elections, wins, do the same shit all over again. What can happen but a new Orange Revolution? Well, at least the country will move and thats better than staying the same!


Whats even funny is that in France, we only see videos of protestants being beat up and reports of hundreds of wounded/dead civilians (some by gunfire, but its never precised who shot) never one video on the civilians doing the bashing or policemen casualties.
Its EXACTLY the opposite when there is a french protest against the government, you only hear about how violent the protesters are and how they ransacked such and such places, how they wounded police officers and destroyed X cars/shops/houses.
If Ukraine was trying to leave the European Union instead of trying to join it, I'm sure our national media would only transmit videos of civilians bashing policemen heads-in  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on January 27, 2014, 07:55:22 am
Quote from: Butan on January 27, 2014, 06:18:45 am
I think seeing those last vids, its pretty clear the cycle of hatred is complete now. There is even more brutality when it comes to civilians than policemen : putting people on fire and using 2x4 beats rubber bullets and sticks.

Does it, though? As far as I know there are no dead cops yet. On the other hand there are several dead civilians.

But yeah, this probably hasn't got much to do with the EU anymore. I'm sure many of them just want to see the cops bleed at this point.

The government is more or less responsible for that escalation, though. The protests were largely peaceful before, but then Yanukovich tried to force them to stop with a violent crackdown. That has clearly backfired now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on January 27, 2014, 12:56:58 pm
without any implied judgement: a revolution goes hand in hand with violence,  and this looks like a revolution in the making.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on January 27, 2014, 03:12:37 pm
I remember the times when some Brits did the same(& worser) to some other Brits. Then 'Murrica was formed  :rolleyes:
Same goes for French, Russian & other revolutions.
It's never pretty & sometimes it leads to even worser regime(like Soviet Russia), but it had to be done. Otherwise we will still be bitches of some feudal or church, giving them everything we have & working 12h a day until you die at age 40.

Of coarse it better to use democratic measures like referendums, voting & other stuff like that, but sometimes it is not enough.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on January 27, 2014, 03:18:31 pm
They should nerf shielders in Ukraine. Maybe buff throwers a lil' bit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 27, 2014, 03:34:27 pm
Quote from: Torben on January 27, 2014, 12:56:58 pm
without any implied judgement: a revolution goes hand in hand with violence,  and this looks like a revolution in the making.

While all revolutions in the making looked like angry mobs, not all angry mobs end up being revolutions. Logic !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 27, 2014, 04:55:16 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on January 27, 2014, 05:11:17 pm
I simply don't trust this movement. The cause is right but the actions taken are goin overboard imo. Also there are far too much chocolate chip cookies/ right wing demonstrants in theese vids.
I doubt a gouvernement made by them would be better than the current one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 27, 2014, 05:35:36 pm
Quote from: Segd on January 27, 2014, 03:12:37 pm
I remember the times when some Brits did the same(& worser) to some other Brits. Then 'Murrica was formed  :rolleyes:
Same goes for French, Russian & other revolutions.
It's never pretty & sometimes it leads to even worser regime(like Soviet Russia), but it had to be done. Otherwise we will still be bitches of some feudal or church, giving them everything we have & working 12h a day until you die at age 40.

Of coarse it better to use democratic measures like referendums, voting & other stuff like that, but sometimes it is not enough.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Totally agree, my post below isnt meant to be against any revolution in the making. I just despise the way it is corrupted by some leading protester/media/politicians. Its even sadder when the angerly mob stops just a breath away from effectively topping the actual government. If it doesnt succeed, then the blood spilt will have been spilt just for the fun of a few stupid boys who likes violence for violence sake and think of those kind of national event like a big playground where they can do whatever they want without being punished.


So here's to Ukraine sacking every politicians actually in place  :)  dont let anyone steal the glory
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 27, 2014, 07:32:18 pm
oh no he broke a camera
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grumbs on January 27, 2014, 08:13:20 pm
Quote from: Butan on January 27, 2014, 06:18:45 am

And all this to join a european union I'm a part of and have nothing good to say about it :P


Think its more about joining the lesser evil. Would you rather be influenced by Russia or the West? Not going to pretend I know more about this region than I do, but I believe there are also older people involved in this who remember what it was like to be under Russia's influence.

Human rights are pretty shitty in Russia. Just look at how they treat a simple band like Pussy Riot or their recent treatment of gays. Plus state run media, no say in who governs etc. I wouldn't want anything to do with them
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on January 27, 2014, 11:49:18 pm
Most of the countries, that have been under Kremlin's rule, want to have nothing to do with Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on January 28, 2014, 12:25:27 am
This is true ptx..  I honestly think Ukraine are better off with EU, one day, perhaps russia too.

Europeans needs to stick together to face off Murica and China!

Euros are not that different from each other, just some systems are shittier than others. Russian system is clearly inferior to EU, although none are perfect.

And russian system is not a reflection of russian soul. Just the people live and gets corrupted in a bad system for too long. Russians I've met are warm, kind and intelligent, with an unhealthy dose of cynicism.. Muricans are warm, kind and unintelligent. :D

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on January 28, 2014, 03:06:42 am
ACAB and all but couldnt help noticing...

(click to show/hide)
(though pwned by molotov)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 28, 2014, 07:40:18 am
as ukrainian i want to explain this situation from my point of view.

about violence from the riot police
right now - there is nothing to talk about because "peaceful protesters" are using  as good weapons as they allowed tocan... and it doesnt means that its not deadly weapons. so even the thing that police is not allowed to use firearms makes some kittens sad.
about "peaceful protesters"
you see how peaceful they are. its not a demonstration. its rebellion and our country leader( mhm or better to say "people who leading our country") without any remorse would allow the army to do that thing which is usually being done to the rebels.
they dont even understand what they are fighting for. one of the funniest thing is this shit is going on for a few monthes... they are losing alot of "resources" but ... they still have everything... sure its just a wish of the ukrainian nation... probably God wills it.  Manna was given to Moises and jews... and for poor, disadvantaged and enslaved ukrainians alot of incendiary mixture was given.
I am sure that people who have something to lose will not act like that... only people who have nothing or people who dont care about what they have. they just want more, no matter how much they have already. the souls of rebels are being grown in this nation since centuries under different countries... but the trouble is my motherland NEVER was fine while it was in hands of her childern. NEVER. only under any other country because every member of my nation thinks that he is smarter than anyone else even when he isnt. ukrainian logic says "if your house is worse than house of your neighbor - burn it"... and I am not kidding.
about democracy in Ukraine
i am not sure is anywhere in the world you will find more free country than this one. you are allowed to do almost everything what you want... lie from TV, in press or wherever else and be taken seriously. you can break any minor social and almost every politcal laws... is it fault of the goverment? no, its a trouble of retarded people. after the fall of USSR someone said that you are in free country so you can do whatever you want! and even 20 years later people still same retarded.
about anti-extremist laws
when I checked the list of those laws i got lold. really used to wonder how laws like that are not in constitution already.
about rulers of the country
yes, they are just a group of oligarchs but country slowly becoming better with them. current leaders of Maidan once was ruling this country... well that was one of the worst times for Ukraine.

I am not scared of civilian war. I am not scared of death. but I am scared of results. what will be? who will be happy? those people are fighting for men who cant do anything but provoke. I am free already. I just want stability in my life. finish university, find a work and get a family. i dont want war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 09:33:14 am
Well, it seems pretty obvious that you are Yanukovich's supporter. I hardly live in a democratic country, but here at least no one is kidnnaping injured people from hospitals because they were injured in demonstrations. 

And about the retarded civil war coment - it IS completely retarded. You have no idea what you are talking about. As anyone from the Balkans can tell you, anything is better than that. Because in civil war situation, a little blood gets spilled, than a little more, and a little more, and in three months you have people slaughtering children and burning houses with families inside. Only a complete moron would want something like this for ANY, yet alone for his own country, or accept that as a possibility he is not affraid of.

As for the rest, I recommend this video. Absolutely CRAZY Polish journalist, God I love the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmpBD_MoeAw
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on January 28, 2014, 10:57:02 am
Quote from: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 09:33:14 am
As for the rest, I recommend this video. Absolutely CRAZY Polish journalist, God I love the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmpBD_MoeAw

thanks man!  wish id be able to understand him,  but non the less great vid
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 28, 2014, 11:15:32 am
I am supporter of the truth. all this started from nothing and its not fault of our current country rulers so I am keeping the classical position for ukrainian - being not for something but against something. in my case - I am against all this anarchy in the capital of my country.
Quote
no one is kidnnaping injured people from hospitals because they were injured in demonstrations
in case of THIS kind of demonstration - its right because they were breaking the law at least about  hooliganism.

about war - you are right, i dont know it and hopefully i'll not. but wait! this kind of wars not once was happening in my motherland. as I already said - I am scared of results because any other violence is scary but natural. but yeah. i said a little bit not that what I mean.

Quote
Only a complete moron would want something like this for ANY
but there is some of them...   my uncle for example.  sure he got no balls to go in Kiev... 

btw respect to all members of Berkut who gave a personal f*ck to journalists. especially to foreign ones. they showed themselfs from the unaccepteble side for the world community but they kicks asses of those annoiyng bastards who wants to get scandalous material and trying to get closer  pretty like flies to the shit.
btw those journalists are breaking the law "interfere to the person with order to action".  but for some reason journalists are protected from it... is it democracy?

P.S.
at the end this polish bastard screaming something like "what are you doing? its your own citizen!! how can you do it??"... hm I think rebels(i can call them only by this word) who throwing molotov cocktails dont think that members of Berkut are same citizen of Ukraine like they are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 28, 2014, 11:50:43 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 28, 2014, 11:15:32 am
P.S.
at the end this polish bastard screaming something like "what are you doing? its your own citizen!! how can you do it??"... hm I think rebels(i can call them only by this word) who throwing molotov cocktails dont think that members of Berkut are same citizen of Ukraine like they are.

Yeah because everybody who is protesting is an extremist terrorist throwing molotov cocktails at riot police...

Jesus man what the fuck. That generalization is not even funny
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on January 28, 2014, 01:46:24 pm
Quote from: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 09:33:14 am

As for the rest, I recommend this video. Absolutely CRAZY Polish journalist, God I love the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmpBD_MoeAw
герой  :D

Dark Blade I understand your point of view, but from what I seen, people started to throw molotovs and other crazy stuff after Berkut (or whoever it was) killed a few of them, am I wrong ? Wasn't it a point when things get out of control ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 02:05:47 pm
Well, if we get the chronology of events right, the police first managed to beat them up, arrested hundreds of people, then killed couple of people, then kidnaped injured people from hospitals (and their whereabouts are still unknown) then sent  threatening text messages to most of the participants at the protest, then tortured couple of prisoners, humiliated protesters when arrested and did some other pretty things BEFORE they started throwing Molotov cocktails.

I would actually congratulate Ukrainian people on unprecedented patience they had with this kind of police which is there "to protect and to serve".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 28, 2014, 03:28:21 pm
"The police" is not a single hivemind, just like "the People" aren't. It's unlikely that the police officers standing with their shields raised and not doing anything were the ones who killed anyone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 03:30:18 pm
Police, in this case, is both a tool and a symbol of the regime. You tool.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on January 28, 2014, 04:31:47 pm
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Walter White is making some meth for Maidan:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 28, 2014, 04:41:28 pm
Quote from: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 03:30:18 pm
Police, in this case, is both a tool and a symbol of the regime. You tool.
Unfortunately, that still doesn't make them a single hivemind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 28, 2014, 04:42:54 pm
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ivCPqAM_kQqAM7oK7e59UGR8E4jw?docId=76e1d704-4967-4a58-a84a-da22c278319b

So, everybody happy now ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on January 28, 2014, 04:53:28 pm
Well, there's still the matter of early presidential elections as well as the EU question that set off the whole protest movement, but this is certainly progress. So much for all the naysayers who insisted the protests weren't doing any good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 28, 2014, 05:39:15 pm
Quote
but from what I seen, people started to throw molotovs and other crazy stuff after Berkut (or whoever it was) killed a few of them, am I wrong ? Wasn't it a point when things get out of control ?
you are wrong. news about dead men was after the radical actions of demostrators. as I remember from the news(of the channel what shows things at Kiev from "DEMOCRATICAL"point of view)  only one person got killed right on the maidan... by firearm... berkut wasnt allowed to use firearms so its still a question who shot that demonstrator.
other died in hospital and some of them died not because they was beaten by police. and there is really a few people with this end.

Quote from: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 02:05:47 pm
Well, if we get the chronology of events right, the police first managed to beat them up, arrested hundreds of people, then killed couple of people, then kidnaped injured people from hospitals (and their whereabouts are still unknown) then sent  threatening text messages to most of the participants at the protest, then tortured couple of prisoners, humiliated protesters when arrested and did some other pretty things BEFORE they started throwing Molotov cocktails.

I would actually congratulate Ukrainian people on unprecedented patience they had with this kind of police which is there "to protect and to serve".
arrest hundreds of people... and let them out at next day... what an arrest...  same about people in hospitals.
Quote
BEFORE they started throwing Molotov cocktails
no.

// I am not sure about espically molotovs. just after some radical actions berkut was allowed to use pneumatic weapons... and in next day-days there was this news about that guy who got killed. MAYBE cockteils became used after it(because I am not sure in my memory) but it doesnt makes previos actions less radical.

Quote from: okiN on January 28, 2014, 04:53:28 pm
Well, there's still the matter of early presidential elections as well as the EU question that set off the whole protest movement, but this is certainly progress. So much for all the naysayers who insisted the protests weren't doing any good.
and Ukraine will get same leaders as few years ago who made our country even worse... we are free to choise our leader, but there is no fine leaders.
Quote from: Corwin on January 28, 2014, 03:30:18 pm
Police, in this case, is both a tool and a symbol of the regime.
dont you wanna say that people who are destroying their own capital of country are simbol of liberty? well it so...so  f*сk this kind of liberty. regime? dude you dont know social and political situation in Ukraine... as I already said - I am  not sure about there is any more free country in europe than this  one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 28, 2014, 05:44:30 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 28, 2014, 05:39:15 pm
dude you dont know social and political situation in Ukraine... as I already said - I am  not sure about there is any more free country in europe than this  one.

That just shows how ignorant you are, duh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 28, 2014, 06:03:19 pm
Quote
i am not sure is anywhere in the world you will find more free country than this one. you are allowed to do almost everything what you want... lie from TV, in press or wherever else and be taken seriously. you can break any minor social and almost every politcal laws... is it fault of the goverment? no, its a trouble of retarded people. after the fall of USSR someone said that you are in free country so you can do whatever you want! and even 20 years later people still same retarded.

well maybe if you are doing something really wrong and bad hiden - you'll get some troubles... but I was never breaking any laws so I never had troubles with police... what kind of regime? we cannot talk about politics? even on tv we can see 2 points of view on tv.
yeah the only three question for me: why noone talking about those rebels as about vandals and hooligans who are capturing the adminstrative buildings of country(so they are breaking the work of country... payment for example), why noone talking about the statment (something like) "in our regions "Political Party of Regions" and communists will not be allowed" ... well I am not sure was it just provoking statment or its seriouse but its not about democraty... and the most interesting question - from where the hell this demostration got all resources...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 28, 2014, 10:53:05 pm
Most arguments I hear on why Ukraine would be better off with EU than Russia stinks of anti-russian and is mostly based on hate of post WW2 - Cold war regime. The only arguments I hear on why Russia is bad is the strong anti-gay lobby and the authoritarian laws enforcement. But there is a lot of countries like that around the world and even 10x worse! I'm pretty sure its not the main reason why there is such an uproar in Ukraine.

Then there is the corruption accusations of political leaders; but lets be honest, its a wild accusation thrown at every protests to legitimize further actions. It can be true, it can be false; its not really important, as long as most people believe one way or another, they will impose their will on the rest.
What's interesting is, will they go balls to the walls or just stop short of any major changes in the country?


Furthermore, as Dark Blade point out, the protesters arent really your typical freedom fighters, it seems far right wings have a heavy hand behind the protests, who the hell is really behind all this, and how this situation will benefit them, I really do wonder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on January 28, 2014, 11:34:40 pm
As another Ukrainian, even living in eastern Ukraine where people usually support Yanukovich, I cannot agree with Dark Blade.

Situation here is very complicated and there is no way to say which side is right or wrong. More likely they are both wrong, which is also not completely true.

First of all, in my opinion, full responsibility on what's happening in our country lies on government and president. All these protests, peaceful at the beginning, started not because Yanukovich didn't sign up association agreement, but because he and his government for several years were talking and promising how they will sign it up and that they are working on it, but at the very last moment he told something like “For some reason I will not sign it up”. So people saw that he doesn't really care about what he promise and that was main reason why people started protesting.

It lasted for a bit longer than week, then on 29th November Yanukovich didn't sign up agreement during Eastern Partnership Summit and in the same night berkut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_(Ukraine) attacked protesters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NktaoqIg9uE
It was first violence, there were no molotov's cocktails before that, no policemen beatings and no administrative buildings capturing. All shit happening in Ukraine these two last months started that night.

After that massive protests started. Around 1 million people joined protests next day. Most went to Independence Square http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg911634/#msg911634 ,
but some radical retards decided to fight police on Bankova Street http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OrQGRAtZmk
In the evening police attacked, outcome you can see in first post.

Later there were lot of provocations from both sides but it was more or less ok. Until enacting anti-protests laws, which was done in a very strange way by raising hands, that were immediately counted. Shortly after that molotov's cocktails and all that shit you can see on tv appeared.

About protesters: at the beginning most of them were peaceful with some radicals I mentioned before who started to fight police from the first day. However with every day and with every stupid ruler's decision more and more are ready for violence confrontation. Despite many Yanukovich's followers opinion, not all of them are right-wing radicals and not all radicals are neochocolate chip cookie, not even most, though some of them certainly are.
Basically most of protesters are good people, but there are also lot of aggressive retards who are using this as opportunity to do what they like.

About laws: it's not the laws themselves which caused escalation of conflict. It is the way they were passed, situation in which they were passed, and the way laws in Ukraine are usually used and abused(not sure if it's different in other countries).

It took much more time to write this wall of text than I expected, so I won't write my opinion on situation in regions today, which is subject for another long post. Just main thing I wanted to say: protests in Ukraine today has nothing to do with EU union anymore. It's more about Yanukovich himself(these are not first stupid decisions he made, just first that led to such consequences), the way he reacted to protests and the way he is ruling the country in general(which is also subject for another post).

Unlike Dark Blade, I am scared of death and I am scared of civil war, which is unlikely but still possible in current situation.
IMO best solution in this situation would be Yanukovich's resignation and new president elections, but it wouldn't solve the main problem in Ukraine – there is no leader who could be accepted both by eastern and western Ukraine. And if such leader won't appear – I'm afraid Ukraine will split up sooner or later, hopefully without huge bloodshed. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Ikarus on January 29, 2014, 01:50:11 am
serr just brought me the infos I desperately was looking for in the past few weeks in the media

thanks for the quick picture, I really hope this will turn out well
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on January 29, 2014, 01:57:27 am
About corruption.. I have been to Russia, Kaliningrad, only for 2 weeks, on a workshop organized by VGIK, the state Moscow film school.

The organizer was a former KGB woman, Mosfilm representative in the US during the cold war. Her assistants, and some of the other students were very scared of what to say openly. I could feel the repression in their eyes. (And I don't think I was very prejudiced up front..)  I saw some students of production spend 10 times my budget for living(Which was a healthy norwegian budget, considering how relatively cheap everything is) during my stay. Obviously bought into the school by rich and influential parents. I saw poor local actresses near prostituting themselves for attention from foreign filmmaker students.. We had daily budgets of about 8 euros, but we were driven to locations in newish huge black mercedeses with bald, criminal looking drivers.. ?? while we were given penthouse suites in a very decent hotel.

It is the craziest society I have seen, where the unfairness is blatant between the rich and the poor, where one can never feel really safe. It is inefficient as fuck, violent and magnificently absurd. Poland, where I live normally is a pure and western paradise in comparison.

The best thing for Ukraine is to join EU. I'm against Norway, my home country joining, but for Ukraine it's clearly the better choice. EU will probably enforce a more modern state, more modern Law and Order, and more modern organizations. As well as they have shown will to upgrade the infrastructure of joining states like in Poland.

The EU is not a threat to Ukrainian identity, like it hasn't been to Polish identity. The only threat that exist to identity is modernity itself, and it's a bad idea to resist it.

If Ukraine fares well, it may even be to the benefit of the Russian people in the long run, as they can learn from Ukraine by example.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 29, 2014, 08:50:59 am
Well, right now Russia is mostly trying to re-establish some sort of satellite belt by the looks of it. First Georgia and now this. Don't tell me Moscow was not involved in Yanukovich's 180 on that agreement.


Also I have trouble picturing right wing extremists starting the protest for any reason linked to the EU. Isn't it something like the neonavisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi from the western part want to fight with the neonavisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi of the eastern part ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 29, 2014, 02:19:59 pm
Its interesting to hear more from Ukraine residents; without you we are only foreigners debating on something we have no relations to  :)



Quote from: Kafein on January 29, 2014, 08:50:59 am
Well, right now Russia is mostly trying to re-establish some sort of satellite belt by the looks of it. First Georgia and now this. Don't tell me Moscow was not involved in Yanukovich's 180 on that agreement.


Most likely Russia was involved in Ukraine sudden change of heart.
Everyone's trying to get money from advantageous trade unions, Ukraine trying to play the EU card until Putin tightened the leash by promises/new agreements/threats, then political backlash with the population.
Ukraine may have ben trying to leave Russia influence, because Russia-Ukraine relations problem over old satelitte relationship/national debts/gas export&import and old territorial claims are always true today.


Russia has its own Eurasia trade unions to push, trying to get/keep members away from Indian/Asian/European outer influences, like the European Union trade network. Its no longer a satellite states war, its a trade war. From ideological warfare to economical warfare : 99% of those countries are capitalist oriented.




Quote from: Kafein on January 29, 2014, 08:50:59 am
Also I have trouble picturing right wing extremists starting the protest for any reason linked to the EU. Isn't it something like the neochocolate chip cookie from the western part want to fight with the neonavisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi of the eastern part ?


Nationalist right wing is against communism and close to facism. Russia represent soviet-communism for them, and european union represent opportunities to say fuck you to Russia while getting closer to einstein birthplace (this point is completely made up from me :P). Also because they are nationalist, they dont like Russia influence which borders on a master/vassal influence ever since the end of the USSR.

It is only normal for some of them to participate in the maidan campaign.

On west/east cultural differences I think serr would be better than me to talk about it, the only thing I know is that the east is more tolerant to Russia influence, to the point of even accepting it for some. Not everyone want Ukraine to stay an independant country. A split between west and east of Ukraine is something the people of Ukraine fear because of those radical differences between regions of the same country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on January 30, 2014, 05:04:24 pm
 :D
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 30, 2014, 06:13:44 pm
Fake, everyone knows the police are a single hivemind killing machine with no emotions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 30, 2014, 06:24:59 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 30, 2014, 06:13:44 pm
Everyone knows the police are a single hivemind killing machine with no emotions, who likes sledging.

Fixed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on January 30, 2014, 11:20:38 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 28, 2014, 06:03:19 pm
from where the hell this demostration got all resources...

From either insert: CIA/MI6/Illuminati/the Jews/HITLËR & Co. hiding in Argentine/Islamists taking over Europe
And could you explain how Ukraine is probably the freest country in Europe? From my own experience all these eastern countries and the balkans are corrupt from top to bottom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 31, 2014, 12:00:07 am
Quote from: Butan on January 30, 2014, 06:24:59 pm
Fixed

I lold.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 05:13:17 am
Quote from: BASNAK on January 30, 2014, 11:20:38 pm
From either insert: CIA/MI6/Illuminati/the Jews/HITLËR & Co. hiding in Argentine/Islamists taking over Europe
And could you explain how Ukraine is probably the freest country in Europe? From my own experience all these eastern countries and the balkans are corrupt from top to bottom.
cuz people can talk and do whatever they want, wherever they want. sure alot of things a bordered with a law ... but as you can see blocking the main street of the Kiev, blocking administrative buildings and even fighting police is kinda not too forbiden also  :|

and how your message about corruption breaking the subject "its not the free country"? even more, it says that everyone can do even outlawed things with high chance to be safe.

sounds terrible? sure. terrible country? yes. terrible goverment? yes. but there is NO better goverment. the previos one, as I already said, was even worse( and the current leaders of maidan was leaders of it also).  and yes... terrible people also. is it their fault that they born in such a country fallen in lie? no. their analysis and action? yes, its their fault and it makes them terrible... at least if look at the political and social point of view. 
there is a rhetorical question " citizen born for the state or state was made for the citizen"? Democracy says about second subject is right. so if state was just made for citizen - citizen made it... and the way it was made was chosen by citizen.

some of you can retort that all my arguments are  too naive. that you are simple citizen and the real power in the hands of oligarсhs. yes. its so, and my arguments are working only from the point of ideal democracy and relations between people.
so rich people and goverment are limiting your freedom? yes, they are. do you feel still same free as before? but do you need this kind of freedom that we can see in Kiev?  nothing constructive... and after all this town needs some repairs... lets guess who will pay for that chaos made by 300-500k of people?(dont tell me cool storys about milion lol. milion is much more people than we can see there). yeah, people from all around the ukraine will have some penalties in their payments because of it.

for real, people needs stability, something to eat, some place to live in and the work allows you to collect some money over that ones you have to spend for daily activity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 31, 2014, 09:41:40 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 05:13:17 am
cuz people can talk and do whatever they want, wherever they want. sure alot of things a bordered with a law ... but as you can see blocking the main street of the Kiev, blocking administrative buildings and even fighting police is kinda not too forbiden also  :|

By the sound of police forces bludgeoning the protesters, I'd go with "It is forbidden as hell".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on January 31, 2014, 10:00:38 am
I have read in some places the notion of the violent protesters being (in part and in the beginning) paid by the government or other groups of people who are against them to cause violence where there was none and discredit the protesters in this way, justifying the police charges and escalation.
Not a new idea at all, but heard it in a couple of places already, and would be interesting to hear the opinions from people who are closer to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 11:24:20 am
Quote from: Kafein on January 31, 2014, 09:41:40 am
By the sound of police forces bludgeoning the protesters, I'd go with "It is forbidden as hell".
that was not just because people was protesting against the solution about Euro-union. that happened because demostrators was blocking the "maidan".
(click to show/hide)
Quote from: Moncho on January 31, 2014, 10:00:38 am
I have read in some places the notion of the violent protesters being (in part and in the beginning) paid by the government or other groups of people who are against them to cause violence where there was none and discredit the protesters in this way, justifying the police charges and escalation.
Not a new idea at all, but heard it in a couple of places already, and would be interesting to hear the opinions from people who are closer to it.
provocateurs were from both sides. true. yeah there is some groups of people who dont care or\and prefer the current leaders so they are doing something for money... beating the demostrators included. however the best explaination of situation you can read in the Serr's post.
Quote
Situation here is very complicated and there is no way to say which side is right or wrong
just from my point of view - the person who started sh*t(organisated Maidan) should be blamed in everything... and international politic is the deal far away of the simple citizen so our president shouldnt be blamed in start of protest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 31, 2014, 11:39:28 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 11:24:20 am
that was not just because people was protesting against the solution about Euro-union. that happened because demostrators was blocking the "maidan".

So they can only "protest" if they don't do any harm and nobody is made aware of them? That is not protesting, and they have rights to protest and block roads in order to do so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 11:48:01 am
Quote
international politic is the deal far away of the simple citizen

Quote from: Kafein on January 31, 2014, 11:39:28 am
and they have rights to protest and block roads in order to do so.
and its pretty retarded thing in democracy. its apriori cant be a peaceful demonstration if its blocking something...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 31, 2014, 12:10:43 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 11:48:01 am
and its pretty retarded thing in democracy. its apriori cant be a peaceful demonstration if its blocking something...

Yes it can. A few years ago for example, milk producers from many european union countries went to Brussels during an european summit and heavily disrupted traffic with their farming equipment, and also spilled loads of milk everywhere. That was perfectly peaceful, nobody got hurt, people heard about them, I think they got part of what they wanted, the end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 12:27:18 pm
but it touches god damn politics... for very importent things - voting is happening... in other cases - country's head is free to do whatever it want cuz it was elected by people. and I think mostly people who stand on Maidan wasnt voting for Yanukovich on president elections.
I think people who are in oposition to the current leaders shouldnt have that much administrative power in country than they currently have.
so all this just wasnt made to be ended peacfully because otherwise its pointless.
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 11:24:20 am
to be honest - it was also show of  current leader's power. as for me - thats right, because nobody needed the story from 2004-5 so better to end it before its got started... well this "Maidan" became much more epic than "Orange revolution"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 31, 2014, 01:03:41 pm

should come out soon, I'm interested
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on January 31, 2014, 05:07:30 pm
http://news.sky.com/story/1204304/ukraine-activist-crucified-and-had-ear-cut-off

Quote
A Ukrainian activist who went missing during anti-government protests has stumbled into a village near Kiev saying he was beaten and tortured.

Dmytro Bulatov, 35, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television: "They crucified me, they nailed down my hands. They cut off my ear, they cut my face. There isn't a spot on my body that hasn't been beaten."

noice
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on January 31, 2014, 05:23:23 pm
Quote
Dmytro Bulatov, 35, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television: "They crucified me, they nailed down my hands. They cut off my ear, they cut my face. There isn't a spot on my body that hasn't been beaten."

They who? Noone knows, and Klitschko comes to his hospital and drop further accusation of government. Government respond that nothing bad happened. UN "neutral" investigation going to find the real culprit ofc, not something/someone who would who would go along their global interest.  I wonder how many days till I quote myself about using wounded/dead to rise to power without normal election :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Spurdospera on January 31, 2014, 05:43:06 pm
Quote from: Butan on January 31, 2014, 05:23:23 pm
They who?
Most likely some east ukrainians.

"The activist reportedly said he did not know who had abducted him but his abductors had spoken with Russian accents."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25977113
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on January 31, 2014, 07:38:11 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Ikarus on February 02, 2014, 02:37:50 am
Quote from: Sniger on January 31, 2014, 07:38:11 pm
as much as I love this video: wrong fucking thread
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on February 02, 2014, 10:17:39 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 02, 2014, 10:27:14 am
Quote from: Moncho on January 31, 2014, 10:00:38 am
I have read in some places the notion of the violent protesters being (in part and in the beginning) paid by the government or other groups of people who are against them to cause violence where there was none and discredit the protesters in this way, justifying the police charges and escalation.
Not a new idea at all, but heard it in a couple of places already, and would be interesting to hear the opinions from people who are closer to it.

It's hard to say if part of protesters were paid by government. Opposition at the beginning said that all who came to Bankova Street on 1st December were paid. Probably that's true, but not even most of them. More likely there were several people who had to provoke fight, nothing more. And even that wasn't necessary in my opinion, fights would start without them. So yes, probably some part of protesters were paid by government, but that's not common and there are no proofs that even some of them were.

More common and much scarier is that government hires groups of gopniks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopnik to terrorize population. In Kiev they beat windows, single passers and do their best to make people more unhappy about these protests by causing more damage. Lately they went from this to burning cars. Though there are no 100% proofs that these guys(they commonly called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky lately) were hired by government it certainly looks like they were + once they were used by police as lure to capture group of protesters who were hunting for titushky.

However in eastern regions it's much worse. Here titushky openly attack protesters, sometimes some funny accidents happen, like when in Donetsk they made mistake and attacked group of government's supporters instead.
But somewhere(my city included) it is even worse. Here they attacked and brutally beat protesters shoulder to shoulder with police, chasing them on city streets for long time. And it cannot be lie, several people I know personally were there, one even got to hospital.

Quote
to be honest - it was also show of  current leader's power
I'd say it is likely to be the main reason for that. This perfectly worked in my city where they know people and could anticipate reaction, though even here it will likely backfire on next elections.
But as for other ukrainians... Our mighty leader can watch what's happening in western Ukraine and in center of Kiev and enjoy how powerful he is.

Quote
nobody needed the story from 2004-5 so better to end it before its got started...
Also quite doubtful statement. Though Yushchenko proved to be complete disappointment, it doesn't mean that Yanukovich is the best president we can hope for, I wouldn't even say that he is better. They are both terrible in different ways.
 

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 02, 2014, 12:22:40 pm
Quote from: serr on February 02, 2014, 10:27:14 am
Also quite doubtful statement. Though Yushchenko proved to be complete disappointment, it doesn't mean that Yanukovich is the best president we can hope for
it does. both of them are not real rulers. sure there is other people are hiding behind their faces. Yushchenko means not just Yushchenko  but all this team ... even non democrative "Freedom" is from that party. same with Yanukovich because he is a face of all ukrainian mafia what trying to control ukraine and dont let the "foreign capital" capture the country.

this country leaders are better, as for me, because they are not destroying the economic as previos leaders was doing. yes, maybe ammount of bullshit from tv became lower cuz its became harder to talk whatever you want... but lets remember the retardness which was going on tv before it.

from the previos leaders I remember few things - full retarded culture... now education got some political colour (i was just looking at the books from 1995-2003 years - there wasnt anything about global politic)... with very specific views on some famous traitors and historical facts; sale of the Kryvorizh Stal to the businessman from India (with money what just fade out somewhere).

I am disagree with the one thing - while some people are protesting somewhere - the rest of people keep working... and for all restavrations money will be taken not just from demostrators but from everyone.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 02, 2014, 01:04:37 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on February 02, 2014, 12:22:40 pm
I am disagree with the one thing - while some people are protesting somewhere - the rest of people keep working... and for all restavrations money will be taken not just from demostrators but from everyone.

This! I know it sounds very cynical to talk about economy and "money" when people are getting hurt, and there are "larger things at stake". But once again, it's common people who are picking up the bill. Those who are throwing molotovs and breaking state/private property, haven't worked a single day in their lives! ( No, i don't know it for a fact, but i find it hard to imagine how it could not be true, you are welcome to oppose me on this one )
 
My parents had to pay for what Gorbachev did in the 80s, while he is sitting in Switzerland, enjoying his Nobel Peace Prize ( what a joke :shock: ) and all the money he stole. Criminals got rich, countless elderly and children become homeless dirty beggars, teachers/doctors/police/army were forced into poverty, all because loudmouthed lazy imbeciles wanted their "freedom" to cheat, steal and break! As i personally felt, the society's attitude went from - "We work little, and get paid little money" to "We don't work at all - we take what's left instead, or someone else will do it before us". 
 
But enough with raging so early in the morning... I really hope it will settle down before the whole country goes up in flames :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 02, 2014, 03:39:11 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on January 31, 2014, 12:27:18 pm
but it touches god damn politics... for very importent things - voting is happening... in other cases - country's head is free to do whatever it want cuz it was elected by people.

That's not how democracy works
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 03, 2014, 04:04:34 am
Quote
Direct democracy is a political system where the citizens participate in the decision-making personally, contrary to relying on intermediaries or representatives. The supporters of direct democracy argue that democracy is more than merely a procedural issue. A direct democracy gives the voting population the power to:

    Change constitutional laws,
    Put forth initiatives, referendums and suggestions for laws,
    Give binding orders to elective officials, such as revoking them before the end of their elected term, or initiating a lawsuit for breaking a campaign promise.
(c) Wikipedia.
Quote from: Kafein on February 02, 2014, 03:39:11 pm
That's not how democracy works
as you can that is how it works.

the  last point says about this shit what is going right now is legitimate... sure those people on Maydan are even less than 2% of ukrainian population and 2% + not more than 30-40% are majority... but outnumbered majority (mutually exclusive). maybe I am wrong and there is much more people than 30-40% of population but personally I know only few people who prefer oposition. most dislike both sides... some dislike both sides but in same time hate the oposition side more( I am for example).

so yes, its legit... but lets look back from what it just started. from the international politic... and its a job of goverment. if this thing should go in the peaceful way - demostraitors would offer the voting for unkrainian citizen... but they was just protesting... cuz its just a provocation... and as you can see current results, this provocation is nicely done.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 03, 2014, 05:02:01 pm
Don't know what's happening, but looks funny:
http://coub.com/view/kam5

probably sums up everything that hapened so far :)
Title: Guaranteed replies
Post by: wayyyyyne on February 03, 2014, 05:13:21 pm
Ukraine 2014 ?_?

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 05, 2014, 09:46:43 am
I strongly recommend:

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/maydan.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 05, 2014, 04:36:29 pm
fail reading wiki skill  :P

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Perverz on February 05, 2014, 04:53:05 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 05, 2014, 05:10:56 pm
Quote
but also supporting the protest to move closer to the EU, against Russia.

This is obviously wrong, could you quote the part where you read it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 05, 2014, 08:05:18 pm
My bad, I just completely misunderstood those 2 parts on the wiki.

(click to show/hide)

Ignore my remark  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Fredom on February 06, 2014, 04:44:32 pm
Klitschko could just box them all  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 06, 2014, 04:49:21 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on February 02, 2014, 02:37:50 am
as much as I love this video: wrong fucking thread

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 06, 2014, 05:14:07 pm
Quote from: Butan on February 05, 2014, 08:05:18 pm
My bad, I just completely misunderstood those 2 parts on the wiki.

(click to show/hide)

Ignore my remark  :P
that called as democracy  :o
they obviously dont know what they are fighting for... says one thing, doing another thing... well everything as usual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 07, 2014, 12:50:10 am
The new Crpg / Total War IRL :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 07, 2014, 01:01:30 am
Totally not a controlled exercise  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 07, 2014, 01:38:28 am
OFC it is.... that's why it doesn't work in real riot !  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 12, 2014, 02:03:01 pm
https://vimeo.com/86495729

Student made film with interviews in english about the riots. Very different from the rest of the coverage we see.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 12, 2014, 08:42:08 pm
second part of video is subjective and pointless. first part is better. yes, there is no such department without any corruption. its everywhere... but its not about goverment, not just about goverment. they are whining about corruption, then each of them become teachers, doctors, maybe simple workers but maybe members of goverment and some of them will be corrupted and they will forget everything what they was standing for and will just do thing their greedy nature says them to do. I am agree with the words "I dont see my future in this country" cuz for me its so too...  but I dont  carry any illusions about it. you can take down the goverment but you will never take down whole nation and yourself.

there is one fine russian adage for case like this. something like "its same as kill rabbit to avenge the bear".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 12, 2014, 10:17:19 pm
I love russian sayings and proverbs! :D

I think the problem is the government doesn't do enough to deal with the corruption and change things, and they are also thieves themselves. You need an unbiased law system first of all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 12, 2014, 10:33:11 pm
Dark Blade, you are wrong, it is completely possible to fight corruption and it would be wrong to say that everything in Ukraine is corrupted. When I was student, no professor from my faculty ever took bribe while I was studying there for all I know. There were several cases known to me when they were offered, but simply rejected. Even more than that, one time we tried to gift our professor of mathematical analysis a box of sweetes, it wasn't bribe at all, we just liked him a lot, yet he apologized and rejected it, saying that it is against his principles to take anything from students.
 
Another story, my friend is studying in neighbor university and some professors there simply force students to pay, making lists of those who did and you will never get high mark if you are not on the list, no matter how good you are. Everyone knows it, this shit is going on for really long time, yet noone did anything about it.

Obviously, there are lot of honest people who don't take bribes, still there are also many assholes who don't give a shit about honesty and laws.
Basically what government has to do is reward first and punish latter, nothing more. Unfortunately, that's not something we can hope for.
So yes,
Quote
but its not about goverment, not just about goverment
it is mostly about government. While you are right and you can find corruption in any area of life in Ukraine, the only way it could be reduced - if government started to take real actions for it.

Quote
they are whining about corruption, then each of them become teachers, doctors, maybe simple workers but maybe members of goverment and some of them will be corrupted and they will forget everything what they was standing for and will just do thing their greedy nature says them to do.
Quote
you will never take down whole nation and yourself

How easy it is to claim everyone around you take bribes, steal, cheat, to convince yourself that it is true, isn't it? Doesn't it make you feel better against their background? Doesn't it excuse and justify your own actions, no matter what you do, since you can always find someone worse and claim that all people are the same?

Don't take it personally, I don't want to offend you, I just really hate such approach, which is unfortunately quite common and which is probably the main reason why there is so high level of corruption. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on February 12, 2014, 11:02:17 pm
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140212/187460252/Judge-Who-Sentenced-Protesters-Shot-Dead-in-Ukraine.html (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140212/187460252/Judge-Who-Sentenced-Protesters-Shot-Dead-in-Ukraine.html)

That is a pretty crazy escalation. Will turn up the heat in this conflict if it becomes a new trend. one step closer to civil war.

Do not know if the source is credible..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 12, 2014, 11:15:55 pm
He didn't really sentence them - he had chosen measure of restraint and not the strictest - house arrest, while prosecution demanded to take them into custody

In Kiev one policeman and three protesters were shotted dead by unknowns before. Whoever did that, their only goal was to escalate conflict.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 13, 2014, 04:25:02 pm
Quote from: serr on February 12, 2014, 10:33:11 pm
Dark Blade, you are wrong, it is completely possible to fight corruption and it would be wrong to say that everything in Ukraine is corrupted. When I was student, no professor from my faculty ever took bribe while I was studying there for all I know. There were several cases known to me when they were offered, but simply rejected. Even more than that, one time we tried to gift our professor of mathematical analysis a box of sweetes, it wasn't bribe at all, we just liked him a lot, yet he apologized and rejected it, saying that it is against his principles to take anything from students.
 
Another story, my friend is studying in neighbor university and some professors there simply force students to pay, making lists of those who did and you will never get high mark if you are not on the list, no matter how good you are. Everyone knows it, this shit is going on for really long time, yet noone did anything about it.
I have just same examples from my own experience. most of teachers are not corrupted but that doesnt fix the rest who are. at medicine and justice its even worse. and I will repeat, its not just about goverment.
Quote from: serr on February 12, 2014, 10:33:11 pm
How easy it is to claim everyone around you take bribes, steal, cheat, to convince yourself that it is true, isn't it? Doesn't it make you feel better against their background? Doesn't it excuse and justify your own actions, no matter what you do, since you can always find someone worse and claim that all people are the same?
you said much more than I meant to explain. I was writing huge explanation... but deleted all it because its hardly understandable.
well if shortly - none of us is a saint and sins of other people doesnt forgives our own sins.not all people think so...

and I was talking about probability, not about facts...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 13, 2014, 06:06:33 pm
It is about government, because corruption will not just disappear all by itself. You need a government that is able to act and put in a proper law system, to start the long road of reducing it.  Now this will likely not happen because most of the politicians would get in big trouble themselves..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 14, 2014, 03:45:17 pm
Btw, nice example of Corruption & Government:
1)Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causa_Guttenberg
In February 2011 it was discovered that Guttenberg's thesis contained texts of other autors without citation. This led to plagiarism accusations against Guttenberg, sparking public and political debates. Guttenberg denied any plagiarism, but asked the University of Bayreuth to revoke his title, admitting "severe errors in workmanship." The university revoked his title on 23 February 2011, announcing further investigations. Due to public and political pressure, Guttenberg resigned on 1 March 2011 as Minister of Defence.
In November 2011 the attorney’s office in Hof dropped the charges against Guttenberg after having found just 23 relevant copyright violations with only minor economic damage.

2)Meanwhile in Soviet Russia:
Astakhov - Children's Rights Commissioner for the President of the Russian Federation (children's ombudsman), Russian politician, celebrity lawyer and television personality. The Russian State Library tested his doctoral thesis for plagiarism and discovered that only 0.68% of the text was original work, the remainder having been copy-pasted from other sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Astakhov
Still works for Putin, nobody cares.
Other famous dudes with fake dissertations(theses):
О. Ю. Баталина member of Parliament
Н. Ю. Белых governor
В. К. Бочкарёв governor
В. В. Бурматов member of Parliament
В. А. Васильев member of Parliament
А. Ю. Воробьёв governor of Moscow District
Д. Ф. Вяткин member of Parliament
В. С. Груздев governor
А. Ю. Дрозденко governor
И. Н. Игошин member of Parliament
О. И. Ковалёв governor
И. В. Лебедев member of Parliament
Г. С. Полтавченко governor
С. С. Собянин mayor of Moscow
& about a hundred ppl more  :lol:

They still keep their doctorate & government positions.
Why?
(click to show/hide)

Can't even describe how I hate my country.


Oh damn, almost forgot to write about why Guttenberg is so famous. His resignation parade:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 15, 2014, 09:11:22 am
Just to tell you how it should work..

In norway in recent years, there have been many cases forcing ministers to resign. One where the minister for immigration had to resign because she told a friend she should apply to the position of "Childrens Guardian", another because his department had directly given money (about 30k  euros) to a small "Self defence for girls" program organized by his youth party without them having to apply for the money.

That's what it takes, a small sidestep or abuse of power and the press slaughters you. The higher up, the higher the chance of falling.

We are ruthless against any kind of small mistake or corruption, and that's how it should be.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 15, 2014, 10:09:50 am
"We"? You mean the press is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 15, 2014, 10:54:24 am
Quote from: Xant on February 15, 2014, 10:09:50 am
"We"? You mean the press is.

That's true, but the press is better than nothing right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 15, 2014, 11:05:46 am
Quote from: Segd on February 14, 2014, 03:45:17 pm
(click to show/hide)

Our country needs a man like Gutenberg.  Damn shame we lost him.  To critique of opposing parties,  who themselves had politicians with troublesome doctor thesises,  as was found out later.
hate politics...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 15, 2014, 02:04:00 pm
Quote from: Thomek on February 15, 2014, 09:11:22 am
Just to tell you how it should work..

In norway in recent years, there have been many cases forcing ministers to resign. One where the minister for immigration had to resign because she told a friend she should apply to the position of "Childrens Guardian", another because his department had directly given money (about 30k  euros) to a small "Self defence for girls" program organized by his youth party without them having to apply for the money.

That's what it takes, a small sidestep or abuse of power and the press slaughters you. The higher up, the higher the chance of falling.

We are ruthless against any kind of small mistake or corruption, and that's how it should be.


The problem with that is most of the time the "press" is fed informations just at the right time. If you know what I mean.
The information is often a tool to attack, it is never sure if the information is the truth, as long as it hurts and people believe it will have done its job.

The press is good when they investigate and find the truth, without anyone pushing them one way or another. Its bad when its just used as a mean to transmit small irrelevant bits of information that are only aimed at destroying people's lives because they are opposing you or others.


Ministers resigning are often the silliest cases of defamation one can hear in his life.
The higher up, the more lobby wants your head for whatever reasons.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 15, 2014, 02:39:17 pm
Yes because of little transparency and corrupt law, no safety for journalists, no one knows the truth, so the press also becomes corrupted.

Also, the higher up, the higher should be the standards. What we see in Ukraine, where the president himself builds a giant palace is extremely harmful. Not because of the resources spent, but because of the signals he sends to everyone else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on February 16, 2014, 03:20:14 pm
Quote from: Thomek on February 15, 2014, 09:11:22 am
Just to tell you how it should work..

In norway in recent years, there have been many cases forcing ministers to resign. One where the minister for immigration had to resign because she told a friend she should apply to the position of "Childrens Guardian", another because his department had directly given money (about 30k  euros) to a small "Self defence for girls" program organized by his youth party without them having to apply for the money.

That's what it takes, a small sidestep or abuse of power and the press slaughters you. The higher up, the higher the chance of falling.

We are ruthless against any kind of small mistake or corruption, and that's how it should be.

Thomek sees a scapegoat and jumps on the bandwagon.

Wake up man, politician is a very old word, look up it's original definition.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 18, 2014, 07:13:24 pm
any comments from democratic europeans to this day of peaceful demonstrations?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on February 18, 2014, 07:24:53 pm
who won?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on February 18, 2014, 07:52:49 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on February 18, 2014, 07:13:24 pm
any comments from democratic europeans to this day of peaceful demonstrations?
Another killed people, enough ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 18, 2014, 08:23:39 pm
I really dont understand why demonstrators are allowed to do whatever they want and being not convicted by most of non ukrainians.

didnt not died yet  ukrainian glory and freedom!
yet, brothers-ukrainians, destiny will smile to us!
all our enemy will gone as dew under fire!
we will rule our land, brothers-ukrainians!

Soul and body we will spend for our freedom!
and will show that we are, brothers, born of cossacks!
Ukrainian hymn, first verse and chorus. translated almost litterally by me

may you tell me what future can have the country with this text in country's title? probably something like current one, no matter who is leading the country.
this day is the first day when I watched the stream... all what some people says from tribune... this provokators really deserve to die.
their voices really makes heart burning ... but when you listening what they are saying...
whining, screaming about people should stand their ground for their freedom and their life, for everything what they have and kick off this president, burn the palaces of oligharhs... and when the car moved a little bit forward on the demonstrators we can hear "WHAT ARE YOU DOING! ITS UKRAINIAN NATION! ITS A PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION!".
really??? and thats hows true heroes are doing??? cowardly assholes who can only scream from their tribunes and stand behind the backs of silly people who are listening to him, who belive him... no matter what BULLSHIT he says. today everything was started not by the goverment(check the news if you want) and after firearms being used by demonstrators whole world can see the face of ukrainian freedom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 08:32:10 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on February 18, 2014, 08:23:39 pm
I really dont understand why demonstrators are allowed to do whatever they want and being not convicted by most of non ukrainians.

didnt not died yet  ukrainian glory and freedom!
yet, brothers-ukrainians, destiny will smile to us!
all our enemy will gone as dew under fire!
we will rule our land, brothers-ukrainians!

Soul and body we will spend for our freedom!
and will show that we are, brothers, born of cossacks!
Ukrainian hymn, first verse and chorus. translated almost litterally by me

may you tell me what future can have the country with this text in country's title? probably something like current one, no matter who is leading the country.
this day is the first day when I watched the stream... all what some people says from tribune... this provokators really deserve to die.
their voices really makes heart burning ... but when you listening what they are saying...
whining, screaming about people should stand their ground for their freedom and their life, for everything what they have and kick off this president, burn the palaces of oligharhs... and when the car moved a little bit forward on the demonstrators we can hear "WHAT ARE YOU DOING! ITS UKRAINIAN NATION! ITS A PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION!".
really??? and thats hows true heroes are doing??? cowardly assholes who can only scream from their tribunes and stand behind the backs of silly people who are listening to him, who belive him... no matter what BULLSHIT he says. today everything was started not by the goverment(check the news if you want) and after firearms being used by demonstrators whole world can see the face of ukrainian freedom.

Well, would you not be afraid of the secret police making you "dissappear" with no way for your family to ever get you or your corpse back? Do you think that is normal and should happen in a democratic and free country?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 18, 2014, 08:54:13 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 08:32:10 pm
Well, would you not be afraid of the secret police making you "dissappear" with no way for your family to ever get you or your corpse back? Do you think that is normal and should happen in a democratic and free country?
1. if I did nothing special, just came on peaceful demonstration - i have nothing to be scared about. dont tell me that this few people were randoms. and actually no proofs that it was secret police, this thing is not finished yet.
2. i am talking about shit currently going there.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 18, 2014, 08:59:42 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 08:32:10 pm
Well, would you not be afraid of the secret police making you "dissappear" with no way for your family to ever get you or your corpse back? Do you think that is normal and should happen in a democratic and free country?
Why would it matter if somebody's corpse is "gotten back"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 10:17:27 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 18, 2014, 08:59:42 pm
Why would it matter if somebody's corpse is "gotten back"?

Proof of death, proper ceremony, proper mourning.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 18, 2014, 10:22:23 pm
And no autopsy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 18, 2014, 10:27:44 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 10:17:27 pm
Proof of death, proper ceremony, proper mourning.
Why do you need a corpse for ceremony and mourning?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 18, 2014, 10:39:06 pm
dunno if posted, sry if re-post

power to da firehose
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on February 18, 2014, 11:16:41 pm
So if I understood correctly, The protestors started with occupying important governmental buildings? No fucking wonder the police intervened. Any self-respecting government, whether good or bad wouldn't allow their governmental buildings and workers to be denied from working. It would have been another thing if the protests started peacefully and was a protest and not a coup-attempt.

Quote from: Sniger on February 18, 2014, 10:39:06 pm
dunno if posted, sry if re-post

power to da firehose

I feel sorry for the police here. I'm also suprised they are so passive. Some of them are even taken, dafuq. I know that in Sweden when a police officer was injured they opened fire with live ammunition (Gothenburg riot).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 11:46:02 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 18, 2014, 10:27:44 pm
Why do you need a corpse for ceremony and mourning?

It's quite evident for the ceremony. You need the corpse to bury, burn, offer to wild animals, whatever. For the mourning, it helps.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 19, 2014, 12:41:34 am
Quote from: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 11:46:02 pm
It's quite evident for the ceremony. You need the corpse to bury, burn, offer to wild animals, whatever. For the mourning, it helps.
You can just bury the coffin, same difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 19, 2014, 12:50:36 am
Quote from: Xant on February 19, 2014, 12:41:34 am
You can just bury the coffin, same difference.

There's a psychological difference, just like for the mourning
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 19, 2014, 02:44:34 am
Shit got real
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 19, 2014, 03:08:51 am
:|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Berserkadin on February 19, 2014, 04:43:37 am


Some other clips and info in this link.
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-police-clash-protesters/25267638.html (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-police-clash-protesters/25267638.html)

The cops seems suprisingly passive and overwhelmed, it's usually the other way around, they're getting mangled. Can't really say I've ever seen cops getting this fucked up by protesters before.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 19, 2014, 09:29:13 am
Quote from: Kafein on February 19, 2014, 12:50:36 am
There's a psychological difference, just like for the mourning
Only for stupid people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 19, 2014, 10:26:48 am
Is there anything an average joe from another european country could do to help in this conflict?  Would it even be possible to get in there and help providing first aid or what not?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 19, 2014, 10:31:40 am
Live stream: http://www.ustream.tv/near?latitude=50.4333&longitude=30.5167#/channel/euromaydan-falcon
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 19, 2014, 10:47:38 am
Quote from: Torben on February 19, 2014, 10:26:48 am
Is there anything an average joe from another european country could do to help in this conflict?  Would it even be possible to get in there and help providing first aid or what not?

Doubtful that anyone apart from Russia can do anything in sense to influence Yanukovich. I am really surprised that it lasts this long. I don't think that the current situation will last much longer. Either police will give up, or this is going to spiral out of control very fast. If more protesters had any weapons, I am sure they would use it at this point. The army is still out of this conflict, hopefully they will stay out or number of dead is going to grow very fast.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 19, 2014, 03:26:16 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on February 18, 2014, 11:16:41 pm
So if I understood correctly, The protestors started with occupying important governmental buildings? No fucking wonder the police intervened. Any self-respecting government, whether good or bad wouldn't allow their governmental buildings and workers to be denied from working. It would have been another thing if the protests started peacefully and was a protest and not a coup-attempt.

I feel sorry for the police here. I'm also suprised they are so passive. Some of them are even taken, dafuq. I know that in Sweden when a police officer was injured they opened fire with live ammunition (Gothenburg riot).

not taking any sides but its GF also i believe so far about 8 dead demos and only 6 dead cops so the round still goes to cops :p
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 19, 2014, 03:28:16 pm
Quote from: Sniger on February 19, 2014, 03:26:16 pm
not taking any sides but its GF also i believe so far about 8 dead demos and only 6 dead cops so the round still goes to cops :p

considering that real people are dying this is a weird thing to say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 19, 2014, 03:30:03 pm
are you for real? people die all over the world every single second due to shit like this and similar, why is this any different?

sure its sad, but someone have still created a post showing all the horrible shit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 19, 2014, 03:40:06 pm
What Torben meant is if there is non-Ukrainian people providing first aid, and yes there is, you can even see them in most videos. Also saw a lot of them on TV, mostly associative staff, but I'm sure noone cares if a no-name comes and help by now.


8 demo dead and 6 cops? Where do those numbers come from?
If its a reliable source of information, I would also like to hear about the number of wounded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 19, 2014, 03:58:21 pm
Quote from: Sniger on February 19, 2014, 03:30:03 pm
are you for real?

doesnt feel right to me joke about who's side is winning by bringing up death counts.  whatever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on February 20, 2014, 12:36:18 pm
http://news.sky.com/story/1214512/police-firing-live-rounds-at-kiev-protesters

Shit took a turn for the worse it seems

Quote
A sniper is spotted "picking off" protesters as police are forced on to the back foot before launching a counter attack.
At least 25 people have reportedly been killed after police fired live rounds at protesters near Independence Square in Kiev.

The Reuters news agency said a photographer reported seeing bodies covered with blankets following the gunfire. AFP is reporting that at least 25 people are dead.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 12:46:38 pm
This is fucking civil war, that's what it is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 20, 2014, 12:51:26 pm
Insane... :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 20, 2014, 01:37:15 pm
Quote from: WarLord on February 20, 2014, 12:38:03 pm
I never thought a european "ruler" would really start to kill his own people. I mean, I expect it from every ruler outside of north america and europe, but this is just fucked up.  :cry:


Implying a european ruler should just lay down his power when part of the population burn and shoot his shit up for random reasons.


Some of these reasons may be right, may be wrong, I'm not saying whats happening should or shouldnt happen : IT IS happening. But the "illusion" of a government that shouldnt defend against its own kind is only the result of piss poor mainstream media reports. There has been, there is, and there will be internal conflicts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 20, 2014, 01:38:34 pm
Fuck..

Ukrainian people stay strong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 20, 2014, 02:57:10 pm
are you kidding me??? at Tuesday demonstrators wanted to capture the building of parlament! in this day some of demonstrators was using firearms, not police! in Lviv at last 2-3 days "demonstrators" was attacking and capturing  military buildings, administrative building on the western ukraine... is it democrative to attack the military building? by the soldiers codex military forces was allowed to open fire actually... but they didnt.
at last days this bunch of rebels is trying to attack and capture Kiev... yes its a civil war which was started by very agressive "demonstrators"... so what the hell are you talking about?
in all this situation I see one huge fault of Yanukovich - he is still trying to keep this in peaceful way because he is scared of foreign forces.

Quote from: WarLord on February 20, 2014, 12:38:03 pm
I never thought a european "ruler" would really start to kill his own people. I mean, I expect it from every ruler outside of north america and europe, but this is just fucked up.  :cry:
why you are not talking about dead policemen? about that man who was killed at Tuesday by angry demonstrators? why? they are not cintizen of ukraine??? they are REAL citizen of ukraine. especially policemen who died for ukraine, for the country who they sworn to prtorect.
thos demonstrators are destroying their own country capital and provoking and carring out the violence! dont you see it??? 


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 03:14:00 pm
This definately looks like a beginig of a lovely civil war.

From BBC:

13:53: BREAKING: Ukrainian police given firearms and will use them in accordance with the law, says Acting Interior Minister of Ukraine Vitaliy Zakharchenko, according to Reuters.


Don't worry Dark Blade, I am sure that you will soon, together with east part of the country, be in a warm Putin's embrace. Because it's Russia that will profit from all of this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Radament on February 20, 2014, 03:18:39 pm
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/promintv (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/promintv)

what are they discussing about?  :?:

*streamer is pretty hot  :mrgreen:

it seems a sort of a try of truce between militia and protesters...
ple someone that speak that language enlighten me :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on February 20, 2014, 03:23:26 pm
Quote from: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 03:14:00 pm
it's Russia that will profit from all of this.
How?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 03:24:57 pm
The country will split in two, Eastern part with Krimea entering into some sort of confederation with Russia, something like Belarus. Boom, they gained half of Ukraine with majority of population.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 20, 2014, 04:16:42 pm
Both protesters and government are doing shit that can destroy our country.
Government's guilt is bigger only because it is government - they by definition are responsible for situation in country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 20, 2014, 05:19:57 pm
Quote from: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 03:14:00 pm
Don't worry Dark Blade, I am sure that you will soon, together with east part of the country, be in a warm Putin's embrace. Because it's Russia that will profit from all of this.
thats why I was against maydan from the start. seems its really going to be same like about 100 years ago - Z(W)UNR and UNR and let it be. let all this collaborator scum stick in another country and sing about their heroic traiotors on another TV channels.  but the trouble is how much terriotory will be in the western side?
Quote from: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 03:14:00 pm
Because it's Russia that will profit from all of this.
and thats why russia is doing nothing but whole europe and chocolate american leader are trying to control ukrainian goverment, eh?
I dislike everything what gives a quack to me. I hate ukraine but I dislike every other country what trying to do something to my country because it will touch me apriory and i dont know any country what really care about ukraine and ukrainian citizen. all this is just politics, just social sphere.
I dislike this situation because I dont want to be in the country hated by the europe.

Quote from: serr on February 20, 2014, 04:16:42 pm
Government's guilt is bigger only because it is government - they by definition are responsible for situation in country.
well as you can see better all this get end at that winters night where peaceful demonstration was beaten by inhumane "Berkut".
was possible to finish it in peaceful way but leaders of maydan showed how useless they are. they had time and it was possible to finish all this but they wanted more power. and at Tuesday they started to fight inside "Rada" as it usually happens.
as I already said some time ago - Maydan wasnt made as peaceful demonstration. the target of demonstration was changing the president and government without constitutional reasons. its a rebelion and its a crime. are those actions are legal and democrative? freedom means anarchey not democracy. if you dont think so - you probably dont know what is freedom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 20, 2014, 05:39:40 pm
Quote from: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 03:24:57 pm
The country will split in two, Eastern part with Krimea entering into some sort of confederation with Russia, something like Belarus. Boom, they gained half of Ukraine with majority of population.
On one point I actually agree with DarkBlade (hate to admit it) but the EU/US don't really give a damn about any civilians killed or war-like scenarios happening in a neighbouring country. There are rock-solid economical interests at work. Cheap labourers, a new market to sell their shit in...

Guess we all have to wait how it plays out, right? 3 likely scenarios, right? Ukraine becomes either Russian or European or they'll split it in half. Though the latter one is probably less likely to happen compared to the other two.

And what is this anyway? Some weird Arab-Spring copy?
When you take a look at Tunisia or Egypt: What did they gain with their super-uber revolution? Nothing. On the contrary, most common folks are off worse than before in both countries. Not to mention Syria. Jesus, they're royally fucked over there.

I wonder what those people on the Maydan expect to achieve or gain. Not "for the country" - which is a stupid statement in itself - but personally. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 20, 2014, 05:55:36 pm
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2014, 05:39:40 pm
On one point I actually agree with DarkBlade (hate to admit it) but the EU/US don't really give a damn about any civilians killed or war-like scenarios happening in a neighbouring country. There are rock-solid economical interests at work. Cheap labourers, a new market to sell their shit in...

Guess we all have to wait how it plays out, right? 3 likely scenarios, right? Ukraine becomes either Russian or European or they'll split it in half. Though the latter one is probably less likely to happen compared to the other two.

And what is this anyway? Some weird Arab-Spring copy?
When you take a look at Tunisia or Egypt: What did they gain with their super-uber revolution? Nothing. On the contrary, most common folks are off worse than before in both countries. Not to mention Syria. Jesus, they're royally fucked over there.

I wonder what those people on the Maydan expect to achieve or gain. Not "for the country" - which is a stupid statement in itself - but personally. Any ideas?

You would have said the same about the French Revolution, or the American War of Independence. It's always a "dirty" business, to say the least, and a peaceful transition is always better. For example, if Yanukovitch actually backed down, organised elections or something like that instead of going all Tiananmen Square on the protesters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 20, 2014, 06:10:09 pm
Some berkut forces are defecting from Yanukovich
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKcG11a5HxI



Quote from: Dark_Blade on February 20, 2014, 05:19:57 pm
and thats why russia is doing nothing but whole europe and chocolate american leader are trying to control ukrainian goverment, eh?
Except from starting all this shit by making Yanukovich Putin's bitch & giving him almost one olympiard $ for abandoning Euro integration. Sure, Russia has nothing to do with all protests. Blame evil Angela Merkel  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on February 20, 2014, 06:10:59 pm
I've read an article about protests since i don't know anything about Ukraine's politics. It's sad that i can't get enough information cause of the language.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/29/ukraine-and-the-rebirth-of-fascism/



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 20, 2014, 06:16:21 pm
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromaydan-falcon

what is happening?  what are those green lazers?  has the police taken half of the maydan or are those guys standing there demonstrators?  ahrg
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 06:19:29 pm
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2014, 05:39:40 pm
On one point I actually agree with DarkBlade (hate to admit it) but the EU/US don't really give a damn about any civilians killed or war-like scenarios happening in a neighbouring country. There are rock-solid economical interests at work. Cheap labourers, a new market to sell their shit in...


Not only that. USA is half a world away, and they are not going to mess in Russia's backyard for sure, their support will remain declarative. We have all seen in Georgia example what happens to those in Russia's sphere of interest that count on Western help. They get run over, while USA and EU "strongly condemn use of force for resolving political issues".

And about EU, I've seen just how impotent and ineffective EU is in Bosnia and Kosovo, especially Bosnia. EU is a paper tiger and bureaucratic structure, unable to solve ANY serious crisis without American help. Sad, but true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 20, 2014, 06:34:59 pm
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(no use of spoilers its suppose to hit you in the face like that)

someone (or something?) planned and organised the shit happening. the people are puppets :/

edit:
Quote from: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 06:19:29 pm
Not only that. USA is half a world away, and they are not going to mess in Russia's backyard for sure, their support will remain declarative. We have all seen in Georgia example what happens to those in Russia's sphere of interest that count on Western help. They get run over, while USA and EU "strongly condemn use of force for resolving political issues".

And about EU, I've seen just how impotent and ineffective EU is in Bosnia and Kosovo, especially Bosnia. EU is a paper tiger and bureaucratic structure, unable to solve ANY serious crisis without American help. Sad, but true.

its not cus "they" are unable "they" are very very pro at what "they" do and you can be sure everything that happens is planned and organised months or years ahead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on February 20, 2014, 06:56:42 pm
I must say I'm rather worried about the current situation in Ukraine. What Yanukovych should have done is reach out to the opposition and hand over the majority of presidential powers to parliament, a first step towards real democracy. If protests were still to continue after that, he should call new elections. His current policy of repression will only further escalate the situation, and he has already lost all legitimacy, both nationally and abroad. I really can't see Yanukovych maintaining his position for much longer, at least not without plunging the country into chaos.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on February 20, 2014, 07:06:40 pm
Problem with that Ross is we dont know how many people want him out :P It could be a very loud violent minority rioting in the capital and he has every right to defend his position. The point is you shouldn't just take the uprisings position and assume they are fighting for their rights and freedoms and are just oppressed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 20, 2014, 07:07:21 pm
we dont know anything at all cept what we are suppose to (think we) know
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on February 20, 2014, 07:17:01 pm
Quote from: Osiris on February 20, 2014, 07:06:40 pm
Problem with that Ross is we dont know how many people want him out :P It could be a very loud violent minority rioting in the capital and he has every right to defend his position. The point is you shouldn't just take the uprisings position and assume they are fighting for their rights and freedoms and are just oppressed

Even if it is a minority, it is still a large and one that simply can't be ignored. New elections, under the strict surveillance of international observers, are the only way to regain legitimacy. Democracy isn't only about carrying out the will of the majority of the population, it also involves consensus and the protection of minorities. Otherwise democracy simply becomes tyranny of the majority.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 20, 2014, 07:32:17 pm
Quote
Problem with that Ross is we dont know how many people want him out :P It could be a very loud violent minority rioting in the capital and he has every right to defend his position.

Most of ukrainians want him out, another thing that there is only "loud violent minority" who are ready to fight and probably die for that. Most people really want him to go but would prefer him to stay rather than have civil war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on February 20, 2014, 07:34:18 pm
every community is tyranny of majority. sad but true
Quote from: serr on February 20, 2014, 07:32:17 pm
Most of ukrainians want him out, another thing that there is only "loud violent minority" who are ready to fight and probably die for that. Most people really want him to go but would prefer him to stay rather than have civil war.

well there is no good ways for ukraine. everyone is liying and noone really cares about citizen. that how its going ... but with years of this things its became normal, as for me. and as Serr said - better this leader than civil war and anrachy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on February 20, 2014, 07:39:09 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on February 20, 2014, 07:34:18 pm
every community is tyranny of majority. sad but true

That's why democracies should have constitutional limits, separation of powers, supermajority rules, and a Bill of Rights.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 20, 2014, 07:50:38 pm
Note however that what I wrote is what I see in eastern Ukraine. It may be(and probably is) really different in central and western Ukraine. I don't know how many people are supporting riots there. What you can be sure about is that there are even less people who would support Yanukovich.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on February 20, 2014, 08:01:58 pm
Quote from: Bob_Ross on February 20, 2014, 07:39:09 pm
That's why democracies should have constitutional limits, separation of powers, supermajority rules, and a Bill of Rights.


It's easy for us to say things like that but when you are a prime minister or something in politics. I'm not sure if any of us can still talk like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on February 20, 2014, 08:02:22 pm
I don't think it's been posted yet here.   :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on February 20, 2014, 08:04:15 pm
Quote from: serr on February 20, 2014, 07:32:17 pm
"loud violent minority" who are ready to fight and probably die for that.

67 did already over last 3 days. Sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 20, 2014, 08:12:01 pm
That's not sad, that's horrible.
And the worst thing is that I don't see good way to end it. It was possible, though very difficult, a week ago. But now.. I'm afraid it can be too late.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on February 20, 2014, 08:16:40 pm
civil war in its beggining.....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 20, 2014, 08:17:52 pm
Quote from: Sniger on February 20, 2014, 06:34:59 pm
"When profit is the motor of society destruction is considered a progress"

Do you even realise how stupid this sentence is?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on February 20, 2014, 08:18:12 pm
Quote from: serr on February 20, 2014, 08:12:01 pm
That's not sad, that's horrible.
And the worst thing is that I don't see good way to end it. It was possible, though very difficult, a week ago. But now.. I'm afraid it can be too late.

I hope it will stop as soon as possible. We had a civil war in recent history and it ended with military coup. Nothing changed, today peoples are afraid to protest government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 08:18:53 pm
I'll try to make it as short as it is possible (trust me, the current situation isn't clear "black and white" at all and it's not easy to describe it laconically). Ukraine has the biggest territory in Europe and has about 45mil of population, quite obvious that not everyone has the same opinion. Due to some reasons (mostly historical) Ukraine is divided into 3 different populations (note that this is extremely stereotypical):

Western Ukrainians (Ukrainian nation mixed with Polish, Hungarian and minor Carpathian nationalities) are extremely active in current riot (and always were in pretty much any demonstrations) mostly because they have solid civil stance (I can describe it as an extreme patriotism, most of them are nationalists). They want Ukraine to get into EU as they connect themselves to EU more than to anything else. During the WW2 western Ukraine first fought for freedom against USSR with nаzis (there was a separate Ukrainian SS division and a lot of other collaboration reckon squads) and then against Nаzi  Germany and USSR. You can imagine how stubborn they are: they fought against USSR even 10 years after Nаzi Germany was defeated. The fact that these people fought for Nаzi Germany can't leave eastern Ukrainians' minds and they remind it in any situation they can. Here starts the first conflict between eastern and western Ukrainians: western Ukrainians consider their own actions during WW2 as the fight for freedom, eastern Ukrainians consider them nаzis  calling "Banderovets" (the follower of Bandera, one of the leaders in western Ukraine during WW2). Also these people speak exclusively Ukrainian (but most of them know Russian well). If you see guys with Molotov cocktail - it's probably western Ukrainians.

Eastern Ukrainians (Ukrainians mixed with western Russians, pure Russians and Tatars, eastern is just formal, this also contains the whole southern Ukraine): are mostly passive in everything and act more or less like Russians these days (no matter how bad things are - you're either afraid to show your opinion or you just eat it and carry on). Most of them are considered as low educated and bad mannered ignorant alcoholics of working class (called "bydlo" in Ukrainian), they were the main electorate of Yanukovich. They support "Russian way" as they consider Russians as closest brothers (and it's legit as a lot of them are Russians themselves), they respect Putin and hate Europe. Most of them don't speak Ukrainian at all, those who do - speak it hardly with a lot of mistakes that make no sense (the prime minister Azarov from Yanukovich team is a perfect example - his horrible Ukrainian became a local meme in Ukraine). Their amount in the riot is small, if you see a guy who wears fake chinese Adidas suit or an alcoholic bum fighting against the Maydan participants - it's most likely eastern Ukrainian.

Central Ukrainians (mostly original Ukrainians and a lot of other nations): golden middle between both other parts. Mostly don't support neither EU nor Russia, but if they had to decide - they would definitely pick EU. Most of them pick the neutral position (that fighting is bad no matter for what), consider both western and eastern Ukrainians too extreme in their thinking. If you see some random guys on Maydan just watching things/helping everyone - these are mostly central Ukrainians.

My own opinions is quite depressing as there is no viable way out of this situation:
1. Everyone hates Yanukovich for multiple reasons (he's a former bandit, he is dumb and he's not educated at all), he made everything to make it what it is now (at first he tried to smash the peaceful demonstration (some random students from Kiev having a march for joining EU) with the police but he failed => demonstration became aggressive, people from Western Ukraine came => he says that Ukraine will join EU, it's just the matter of time => people became less aggressive => he takes money from Putin (like $10 billions), tries to smash them again again and fails even harder => tries to make Maydan starve over time and almost succeed but then his team tries to push some completely retarded tyrant laws, prime minister Azarov who was the biggest fan of Russian and was completely against EU runs with money to Austria with his family (lel) => people start hating Yanukovich and his team even more and come back to Maydan => he retracts laws but there is no way back already, he takes some more money from Putin again and tries to smash Maydan once again)
2. Leaders of the opposite side are not much better (Yatsenyuk is a guy who will betray Ukraine for his own profit in the very first possible situation, Tyahnybok is an obvious nаzi who will chase all the eastern population with special hatred, Klitschko is a good boxer but a bad politician who'll get a bad team that will decide everything for him)
3. Ukrainian people got stuck between the hammer (Russia) and the anvil (EU). Russia dreams about getting Crimea and eastern Ukraine (well, it's hard to believe but a lot of Russians don't mind to get a part of so called "brotherland"), while EU is afraid of Ukraine getting disbanded and having civil war on its borders with all the consequences (refugees, bio-chemical-radioactive contamination and all the shit that's still in Ukraine)

All in all, I don't support the current riot. I clearly believe that once the first Molotov cocktail was thrown in the crowd of policemen - Berkut had to open fire using full metal jacket bullets just to stop what it is happening now. But instead of that Berkut was beating women and unarmed students lying on the ground. Hopefully it doesn't grow into a wide civil war, otherwise I'll be mobilized as Ukrainian infantry officer to suppress my own nation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 20, 2014, 08:24:50 pm
Better make sure you have gaz in the tank
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 20, 2014, 08:24:54 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 20, 2014, 08:17:52 pm
Do you even realise how stupid this sentence is?

the fact that the gramma is wrong doesnt make the meaning wrong.

everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 20, 2014, 08:28:00 pm
new elections
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 20, 2014, 08:31:09 pm
Dave, I suppose your're central ukrainian ?

Anyway, EU is just an US vassal, from it's beginning. Nothing to expect from that shitty oligarchy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 20, 2014, 08:31:48 pm
Thank you Dave, wanted to make post about differences between eastern and western urkainians for long time, but didn't have enough time and was afraid to misrepresent it due to emotions.
Indeed these differences are one of the main problem Ukraine has because no matter who will come to power, nearly half population will hate him.
Also, you forgot to mention the fourth opposition leader - Poroshenko, obviously smart guy who become more popular with every day. I'm just interested to hear your opinion about him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 20, 2014, 08:39:03 pm
Guess it works different in the Ukrainian army but in the German one they actually expect an commanding officer to disobey orders that are against German law.
Then again, the German army is forbidden to be used inside Germany itself too. There are rather strict rules about that...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 20, 2014, 08:39:51 pm
Quote from: Sniger on February 20, 2014, 08:24:54 pm
the fact that the gramma is wrong doesnt make the meaning wrong.

everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Its meaning is wrong. Its use of the word "destruction" is abusive and misleading.

Quote from: Tovi on February 20, 2014, 08:31:09 pm
Dave, I suppose your're central ukrainian ?

Anyway, EU is just an US vassal, from it's beginning. Nothing to expect from that shitty oligarchy.

What makes you think the EU is an US vassal?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on February 20, 2014, 08:59:05 pm
semantics you quibbler
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anhy on February 20, 2014, 08:59:29 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 08:18:53 pm
I'll try to make it as short as it is possible (trust me, the current situation isn't clear "black and white" at all and it's not easy to describe it laconically). Ukraine has the biggest territory in Europe and has about 45mil of population, quite obvious that not everyone has the same opinion. Due to some reasons (mostly historical) Ukraine is divided into 3 different populations (note that this is extremely stereotypical):

Western Ukrainians (Ukrainian nation mixed with Polish, Hungarian and minor Carpathian nationalities) are extremely active in current riot (and always were in pretty much any demonstrations) mostly because they have solid civil stance (I can describe it as an extreme patriotism, most of them are nationalists). They want Ukraine to get into EU as they connect themselves to EU more than to anything else. During the WW2 western Ukraine first fought for freedom against USSR with nаzis (there was a separate Ukrainian SS division and a lot of other collaboration reckon squads) and then against Nаzi  Germany and USSR. You can imagine how stubborn they are: they fought against USSR even 10 years after Nаzi Germany was defeated. The fact that these people fought for Nаzi Germany can't leave eastern Ukrainians' minds and they remind it in any situation they can. Here starts the first conflict between eastern and western Ukrainians: western Ukrainians consider their own actions during WW2 as the fight for freedom, eastern Ukrainians consider them nаzis  calling "Banderovets" (the follower of Bandera, one of the leaders in western Ukraine during WW2). Also these people speak exclusively Ukrainian (but most of them know Russian well). If you see guys with Molotov cocktail - it's probably western Ukrainians.

Eastern Ukrainians (Ukrainians mixed with western Russians, pure Russians and Tatars, eastern is just formal, this also contains the whole southern Ukraine): are mostly passive in everything and act more or less like Russians these days (no matter how bad things are - you're either afraid to show your opinion or you just eat it and carry on). Most of them are considered as low educated and bad mannered ignorant alcoholics of working class (called "bydlo" in Ukrainian), they were the main electorate of Yanukovich. They support "Russian way" as they consider Russians as closest brothers (and it's legit as a lot of them are Russians themselves), they respect Putin and hate Europe. Most of them don't speak Ukrainian at all, those who do - speak it hardly with a lot of mistakes that make no sense (the prime minister Azarov from Yanukovich team is a perfect example - his horrible Ukrainian became a local meme in Ukraine). Their amount in the riot is small, if you see a guy who wears fake chinese Adidas suit or an alcoholic bum fighting against the Maydan participants - it's most likely eastern Ukrainian.

Central Ukrainians (mostly original Ukrainians and a lot of other nations): golden middle between both other parts. Mostly don't support neither EU nor Russia, but if they had to decide - they would definitely pick EU. Most of them pick the neutral position (that fighting is bad no matter for what), consider both western and eastern Ukrainians too extreme in their thinking. If you see some random guys on Maydan just watching things/helping everyone - these are mostly central Ukrainians.

My own opinions is quite depressing as there is no viable way out of this situation:
1. Everyone hates Yanukovich for multiple reasons (he's a former bandit, he is dumb and he's not educated at all), he made everything to make it what it is now (at first he tried to smash the peaceful demonstration (some random students from Kiev having a march for joining EU) with the police but he failed => demonstration became aggressive, people from Western Ukraine came => he says that Ukraine will join EU, it's just the matter of time => people became less aggressive => he takes money from Putin (like $10 billions), tries to smash them again again and fails even harder => tries to make Maydan starve over time and almost succeed but then his team tries to push some completely retarded tyrant laws, prime minister Azarov who was the biggest fan of Russian and was completely against EU runs with money to Austria with his family (lel) => people start hating Yanukovich and his team even more and come back to Maydan => he retracts laws but there is no way back already, he takes some more money from Putin again and tries to smash Maydan once again)
2. Leaders of the opposite side are not much better (Yatsenyuk is a guy who will betray Ukraine for his own profit in the very first possible situation, Tyahnybok is an obvious nаzi who will chase all the eastern population with special hatred, Klitschko is a good boxer but a bad politician who'll get a bad team that will decide everything for him)
3. Ukrainian people got stuck between the hammer (Russia) and the anvil (EU). Russia dreams about getting Crimea and eastern Ukraine (well, it's hard to believe but a lot of Russians don't mind to get a part of so called "brotherland"), while EU is afraid of Ukraine getting disbanded and having civil war on its borders with all the consequences (refugees, bio-chemical-radioactive contamination and all the shit that's still in Ukraine)

All in all, I don't support the current riot. I clearly believe that once the first Molotov cocktail was thrown in the crowd of policemen - Berkut had to open fire using full metal jacket bullets just to stop what it is happening now. But instead of that Berkut was beating women and unarmed students lying on the ground. Hopefully it doesn't grow into a wide civil war, otherwise I'll be mobilized as Ukrainian infantry officer to suppress my own nation.
выебу тебя петух, за восточную украину.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 20, 2014, 09:00:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 08:18:53 pm
(click to show/hide)
Україна це Росія!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 09:07:51 pm
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2014, 08:39:03 pm
Guess it works different in the Ukrainian army but in the German one they actually expect an commanding officer to disobey orders that are against German law.


That was also the case in our former army, probably in many armies, even in Ukranian. I was never an officer, thank God, otherwise I also may think police has a right to shoot at protesters. Dave, kudos for the post, except for the last four sentences. If you shoot at your people as a police officer or officer of the army (which is even worse imo), except when defending your own or somebody else life, you deserve to be tried and convicted as a criminal. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 09:27:37 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 20, 2014, 08:31:09 pm
Dave, I suppose your're central ukrainian ?

No, I come from from the South-West of Ukraine which is mostly considered as eastern Ukraine (makes no sense, I know).

Quote from: serr on February 20, 2014, 08:31:48 pm
Thank you Dave, wanted to make post about differences between eastern and western urkainians for long time, but didn't have enough time and was afraid to misrepresent it due to emotions.
Indeed these differences are one of the main problem Ukraine has because no matter who will come to power, nearly half population will hate him.
Also, you forgot to mention the fourth opposition leader - Poroshenko, obviously smart guy who become more popular with every day. I'm just interested to hear your opinion about him.

Yeah, he is obviously a smart guy and he has my sympathy, but I doubt that they will let him get the power. (Info for everyone: it's a known Ukrainian rich businessman who owns one of the biggest candy production brands in the world - Roshen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roshen )

Quote from: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 09:07:51 pm
That was also the case in our former army, probably in many armies, even in Ukranian. I was never an officer, thank God, otherwise I also may think police has a right to shoot at protesters. Dave, kudos for the post, except for the last four sentences. If you shoot at your people as a police officer or officer of the army (which is even worse imo), except when defending your own or somebody else life, you deserve to be tried and convicted as a criminal.

It's the same for all European armies I think. Yanukovich can't use army unless he announces a civil war. What I wanted to say about shooting at protesters is that they only had to shoot and use forces once they had direct threat to their lives (in cases when protesters used guns themselves and threw Molotov Cocktails), Berkut instead used guns and forces against those who didn't even have melee weapons. Trust me, shooting in real life only makes you value a human life more. I've read some Russian websites and the majority of people were like "Kill this Maydan protesters, just use guns and kill them all, they're nаzi terrorists", those are just Russian stupid kids who played Battlefield and never knew the real situation in Ukraine. Last four sentences are the cruel reality, I want it or I don't - I'll be mobilized in case of civil war, anyway being an officer means that you mostly give orders over shooting yourself. And of course I won't shoot my own people besides those who try to kill me, even if I get an order to do so - I can always refuse to follow the criminal order.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 20, 2014, 09:31:01 pm
Having a law that says a soldier should refuse a command given that is against the law is one thing and reality is another. If the big shots of the military are on the government's side, it's not so easy to just say you won't obey an order. You might think the law is technically on your side and hopefully that'll give you the warm fuzzies when you're executed as a traitor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 09:36:29 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 09:27:37 pm
I want it or I don't - I'll be mobilized in case of civil war, anyway being an officer means that you mostly give orders over shooting yourself. And of course I won't shoot my own people besides those who try to kill me, even if I get an order to do so - I can always refuse to follow the criminal order.

This makes me sad. And the saddest part is - I heard it all before. From the lips of officers and soldiers here in the Balkans, even my father. And you know what he says now, after twenty years? I should have had the guts and throw away my rifle when I was mobilized and return home.

What I am trying to say is, it's not like you wouldn't have any choice. You can refuse to accept mobilization. Unfortunately, my country has been through something very similar, and trust me, the only people that went through it clean were those who refused to take arms even when they had every excuse to do so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 09:41:30 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 20, 2014, 09:31:01 pm
Having a law that says a soldier should refuse a command given that is against the law is one thing and reality is another. If the big shots of the military are on the government's side, it's not so easy to just say you won't obey an order. You might think the law is technically on your side and hopefully that'll give you the warm fuzzies when you're executed as a traitor.

There is a difference between a soldier and an officer. It's already hard to punish or control even a sergeant who has a squad of 10 soldiers devoted to their direct commander, they follow only his direct orders. Nothing to say about officers, you simply have to destroy the whole subordinated platoon/company in order to execute the commanding officer. Also if I'll have such an order - trust me, I won't be the only officer who will refuse to obey.

Quote from: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 09:36:29 pm
This makes me sad. And the saddest part is - I heard it all before. From the lips of officers and soldiers here in the Balkans, even my father. And you know what he says now, after twenty years? I should have had the guts and throw away my rifle when I was mobilized and return home.

What I am trying to say is, it's not like you wouldn't have any choice. You can refuse to accept mobilization. Unfortunately, my country has been through something very similar, and trust me, the only people that went through it clean were those who refused to take arms even when they had every excuse to do so.

In order to refuse mobilization - I have to violate the law so I can get to the prison which is even worse because I know that I'll be replaced by someone whom I can't be sure of. Because I can't be sure in anyone besides myself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on February 20, 2014, 09:47:21 pm
All the best Dave. I hope you won't be needed as soldier.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 20, 2014, 09:51:48 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 09:41:30 pm
There is a difference between a soldier and an officer.

No, officers are still soldiers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 20, 2014, 10:18:20 pm
Quote from: WarLord on February 20, 2014, 10:03:13 pm
But most soldiers aren't officers - so there's a difference.
All cats are animals but not all animals are cats.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: xxkaliboyx on February 20, 2014, 10:32:38 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 09:41:30 pm
There is a difference between a soldier and an officer. It's already hard to punish or control even a sergeant who has a squad of 10 soldiers devoted to their direct commander, they follow only his direct orders. Nothing to say about officers, you simply have to destroy the whole subordinated platoon/company in order to execute the commanding officer. Also if I'll have such an order - trust me, I won't be the only officer who will refuse to obey.

In order to refuse mobilization - I have to violate the law so I can get to the prison which is even worse because I know that I'll be replaced by someone whom I can't be sure of. Because I can't be sure in anyone besides myself.

From one Soldier to another (Officer) good luck in your situation and hope you stay safe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on February 20, 2014, 10:47:03 pm
That's how I feel about revolution(
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 21, 2014, 12:15:28 am
i'm really glad that my country got split 20 years ago and both slovaks and czechs just went their own way. i can't imagine any country can hold together (if not having a dictator) when people have completely different opinions on how and where their country should be heading, which is imo the main reason why all this started. anyways good luck to you dave.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Matim on February 21, 2014, 12:19:00 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on February 21, 2014, 12:15:28 am
i'm really glad that my country got split 20 years ago and both slovaks and czechs just went their own way. i can't imagine any country can hold together (if not having a dictator) when people have completely different opinions on how and where their country should be heading, which is imo the main reason why all this started. anyways good luck to you dave.

'murica!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jeade on February 21, 2014, 12:45:06 am
Found a number of updates here: www.reddit.com/r/ukrainianconflict

I hope those of you in Ukraine are as safe as you can be.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on February 21, 2014, 01:07:06 am
What's the big difference between the Ukranian and Russian languages? Could a person that only was taught Ukrainian understand Russian?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 21, 2014, 01:28:17 am
Quote from: BASNAK on February 21, 2014, 01:07:06 am
What's the big difference between the Ukranian and Russian languages? Could a person that only was taught Ukrainian understand Russian?

I had a guy from Ukrainian family as my classmate years ago, and when we asked him everybody thought Russian at first, although without much of an accent, so he was born here anyway. Needless to say he was pissed off lol

They have unique words and meanings attached to them, told some examples but I forgot. They use the cyrillic alphabet and are both slavic languages, so it's really similar.

That's what he said back then, not 100% sure just how different they are in reality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 21, 2014, 09:30:53 am
Listen the ukrainian policeman :
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on February 21, 2014, 09:42:23 am
What's happening in Ukraine is a disgrace, both parties should end the violence and bloodshed before it escalates even further.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 21, 2014, 10:59:58 am
Quote from: BASNAK on February 21, 2014, 01:07:06 am
What's the big difference between the Ukranian and Russian languages? Could a person that only was taught Ukrainian understand Russian?
It's a little bit harder for Russians, a lot easier for Ukrainians, but we could understand 80-95% of others language. I could name less than 20 Ukrainian words, but I could freely communicate on great variety of topics with my ukro-friends :)

Nessaj describes current situation correctly, especially about Russia Today crap. Currently there is only 1 free tv channel in Russia, but it's gonna be closed soon.
Maydan reporter from "Russia 24" gets Oscar statue for his "honest" work:
http://youtu.be/2bOLWlDy32o?t=37s

Btw, don't forget that poverty line uses national standards. Average salary in Ukraine is about 370$(265 Euro). 1.65 times less than in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 21, 2014, 11:42:00 am
Quote from: BASNAK on February 21, 2014, 01:07:06 am
What's the big difference between the Ukranian and Russian languages? Could a person that only was taught Ukrainian understand Russian?

Original native Ukrainian is hard to understand for Russians. Not only because words and pronunciation are different but also intonation is quite different. Even I had some problems understanding some particular words of western Ukrainians (while I know Ukrainian perfectly). So what Segd said about 80-95% is not true, it can only happen when you speak to someone whose native language is Russian but also knows Ukrainian. I doubt any Russian can understand more than 60% of native Ukrainian speech. It's not more than I understand Polish or Croatian or any other slavic language. Though 80-95% sounds more realistic if you read the text - it's much easier for Russians to read it than to hear. Mostly because a lot of letters are pronounced different and some letters are absent at all (Ґ, Є, І, Ї can only be met in Ukrainian while Ё, Ъ, Ы, Э can only be met in Russian)
Russian
г
е
ё
и
ъ
ы
э
гх (like german H)
йи
Ukrainian
ґ
є
ьо/йо
і
'
и
е
г
ї
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 21, 2014, 12:06:03 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 21, 2014, 11:42:00 am
Original native Ukrainian is hard to understand for Russians. Not only because words and pronunciation are different but also intonation is quite different. Even I had some problems understanding some particular words of western Ukrainians (while I know Ukrainian perfectly). So what Segd said about 80-95% is not true, it can only happen when you speak to someone whose native language is Russian but also knows Ukrainian. I doubt any Russian can understand more than 60% of native Ukrainian speech.
I think I know better that I can & can't understand :) But I would agree that western dialect is harder for Russians than central or eastern(which is more like a hybrid between Russian & Ukrainian)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 21, 2014, 12:38:25 pm
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1005652.html

An interesting article.

Also, apparently Yanukovich has conceded to the opposition?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2014, 01:49:34 pm
Quote
Here's a picture of another female volunteer nurse who was shot in the throat by police, where-after she wrote a quick message on social media "I'm dying":

She has been trained well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 21, 2014, 02:35:17 pm
http://www.president.gov.ua/news/30116.html

Заявляю про те, що я ініціюю дострокові президентські вибори.
Я ініціюю також повернення до Конституції 2004го року з перерозподілом повноважень убік парламентської республіки.
to Dave: I could understand 95(except few words)% of your President's speech :)

Today Yanukovich announced new president elections(no exact date yet) & returning of Constitution 2004(parliament republic). Lets hope that this will end all crap for good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2014, 02:45:39 pm
New elections don't mean much in a country that's massively corrupted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 21, 2014, 02:47:04 pm
At least they have an opposition, & Yanukovich now has less support than ever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2014, 03:08:09 pm
Well, we'll see. It will depend who's monitoring the elections, as well. If it's the corrupt government, can't really trust the results. I imagine the rioters would want some outside observers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tuetensuppe on February 21, 2014, 03:13:27 pm
all i can say is, that im watching the internet and also official german television from time to time...

im really angry and feel so sry about all the shit thats going on....

friend of mine sended me that today

http://ukrstream.tv/videos/siloviki_obstriliuiut_aktivistiv_maidanu_armed_forces_shoot_protestors#.Uwdc54VoHcv (http://ukrstream.tv/videos/siloviki_obstriliuiut_aktivistiv_maidanu_armed_forces_shoot_protestors#.Uwdc54VoHcv)

http://ukrstream.tv/videos/v_oblozi_under_siege#.UwdfFYVoHcs (http://ukrstream.tv/videos/v_oblozi_under_siege#.UwdfFYVoHcs)

all i see are videos like that, no clue what is written or said, cause i dont speak the language....but the pics and videos say enough in my opinion
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 21, 2014, 03:19:16 pm
Parliament today: :)
http://youtu.be/1TYNfYHqndo?t=2m44s
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tuetensuppe on February 21, 2014, 03:24:25 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 21, 2014, 03:19:16 pm
Parliament today: :)
http://youtu.be/1TYNfYHqndo?t=2m44s

may you can explain what was said?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 21, 2014, 03:29:12 pm
They were discussing old new Constitution(2004), & Speaker decided to make a break till 16:00. Looks like Ukrainians  tired of breaks :)

btw, voting in Soviet Russia:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 21, 2014, 03:37:36 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 21, 2014, 03:19:16 pm
Parliament today: :)
http://youtu.be/1TYNfYHqndo?t=2m44s

Doesn't look like it was a very productive meeting, but they should really keep negotiating - people a getting killed while they waste time on fighting each other, and holding lunch breaks! 
 
It's finally moving somewhere, so imo they should sacrifice some of their time, and just keep that parlament meeting going - sleep in chairs if they need to, but not postponing anything. The faster they come to some sort of acceptable agreement - the fewer citizens and policemen will get hurt.
 
Looks like a fucking zombie apocalypse in Kiev :( If I was skeptical in the beginning, now, after people were getting shot with live rounds, i have no sympathy for the government at all. Was and still am against demonstrations and such as a concept, but this is just too much...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 21, 2014, 03:38:52 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 21, 2014, 03:29:12 pm
They were discussing old new Constitution(2004), & Speaker decided to make a break till 16:00. Looks like Ukrainians  tired of breaks :)

btw, voting in Soviet Russia:
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look at their happy faces! they are happy to serve the people!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rogue on February 21, 2014, 03:47:40 pm
So, Segd for russian president 2018?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on February 21, 2014, 03:51:59 pm
Quote from: Rogue on February 21, 2014, 03:47:40 pm
So, Segd for russian president 2018?  :mrgreen:

Don't even joke about it, it will get him in trouble :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2014, 03:57:28 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on February 21, 2014, 03:37:36 pm
Looks like a fucking zombie apocalypse in Kiev :( If I was skeptical in the beginning, now, after people were getting shot with live rounds, i have no sympathy for the government at all.
Have you seen how the "protesters" treated the police before they started shooting? I'm not surprised they had to resort to live ammunition.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 21, 2014, 03:58:20 pm
Quote from: Rogue on February 21, 2014, 03:47:40 pm
So, Segd for russian president 2018?  :mrgreen:
I'll stick with Finland for now  8-)
Next presidents of both Russia & Ukraine will have a lot of work in rebuilding their countries & will probably won't end well even if they would be good guys.  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on February 21, 2014, 04:22:49 pm
If the gouvernement shoots at defenseless people (as seen in Tuetens video) something is seriously fucked up.
A gouvernement is supposed to fight for the prople's interests and defend their rights, not to repress their own inhabitants and kill them.
The current Ukrainian gouvernement has lost any right for their existence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2014, 04:51:47 pm
Is Otpor behind this ?

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 21, 2014, 04:56:50 pm
Please no senseless sensationalism  :rolleyes:  if we could remain with facts only and not pro-demo bullshit (would add pro-police bullshit but its so rare  :P).

May I remind you the context of months of lethal violence toward the police too? At least would be lethal if they werent all wearing robocop suit. Still they have deads to account for too, but hey, like Dark Blade says, they arent humans right? Keel them to death!  :mrgreen:

Cant resist laughing when I hear people saying Berkut is a uncontrollable savage special force unit. Well, if I was a ruler of any democratic country, I would like to have those kind of undisciplined bloodthirsty policemen being burnt, beaten to death, shot as, rolled over by cars and shit for two months, without flipping out. They may have flipped out a few times (deaths happened before official live ammo), but can you seriously think in this context it is completely unthinkable?

Live ammunition was already in the hands of the demo for a long time. Did noone see those few vids weeks ago, where you see guys with guns and shit?



Read a few european papers yesterday, some of them shamelessly using the over-used "David vs Goliath" analogies when they compare stones and bullets, when you see 90% of the protesters wearing helmets/jackets/shields and some kind of weapons that you are forbidden to transport outside your homes in most countries with laws on weapons controls...
The comparison between a kind of paramilitary group of a hundred thousand of men, and David, cannot work in my head.

I predict I'm going to use a quote from page >15 soon since the re-election is finally going to happen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 21, 2014, 05:36:44 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smithy on February 21, 2014, 05:39:08 pm

Don't know what he's saying, but the dog is cute as hell
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Wiltzu on February 21, 2014, 06:37:04 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 21, 2014, 03:58:20 pm
I'll stick with Finland for now  8-)

I have bad news for you. In Finland, the president don't have power.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Miwiw on February 21, 2014, 06:50:04 pm
I don't see why either government nor protesters in the Ukraine should have a right to join the EU now with that kind of behaviour.
Both sides are seriously fucked up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 21, 2014, 07:32:50 pm
Quote from: Miwiw on February 21, 2014, 06:50:04 pm
I don't see why either government nor protesters in the Ukraine should have a right to join the EU now with that kind of behaviour.
Both sides are seriously fucked up.

I think some of the protesters have a justifiable agenda. Many sources tend to say the government is corrupt to the bone. But as always, ideology is a messy business. It only happens very rarely that a political group can do stuff without teaming up with people they would prefer not to. What I'm saying is of course it would be better without the neochocolate chip cookies, but all extremist groups tend to join when they see a realistic opportunity of a revolution happening.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: JackieChan on February 21, 2014, 09:58:36 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2014, 04:51:47 pm
Is Otpor behind this ?

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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Radament on February 22, 2014, 03:59:46 am
this slaughter is hard to watch , even for me , hope this fucked up situation is coming to an end soon...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 09:25:04 am
The incumbent President will flee. "Government of popular trust" will be headed by Ylia Timoshenko. But right forces are not obey. The nationalists spit on accession to the EU. Eastern regions of Ukraine require stop banditry and establish order. The government of Tymoshenko does not cope. The people in each region will in their own way and their own direct your "order". Definitely not prevent total chaos, Tymoshenko will ask support from the EU or the UN. Introduce troops. Perhaps introduce external management. This situation is not like the people of Eastern Ukraine. It's not like as followers of Bendery. Regions will declare secession from Ukraine. And this is war... in short, 3-4 years of abominable life of the people of Ukraine assured. Thanks to a good boxer and a blunt policy Klitschko, cowardly traitor Yanukovych, the fighters for democratic values of the United States, tolerant and false gays from the EU.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on February 22, 2014, 09:29:45 am
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 (https://twitter.com/vaughnwallace/status/435913741117304832/photo/1)

Quite a haunting picture. The father is supposed to be a professor from Kiev.

http://www.dailydot.com/news/iconic-kiev-photo-2-men/ (http://www.dailydot.com/news/iconic-kiev-photo-2-men/)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on February 22, 2014, 10:22:18 am
Freedom is nice and all, but I really doubt I would be willing to die or get hurt for it. I think I'm the kind of person who turn around and go away when shit happens. If I had lived 70 years earlier I wouldn't have raised a finger to help jews and today I would stay at home if I would live in Kiev. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 22, 2014, 10:46:32 am
NWO in action :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_2qDrLotE8#t=34
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 22, 2014, 01:30:54 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2014, 02:26:51 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on February 22, 2014, 09:29:45 am
Quite a haunting picture. The father is supposed to be a professor from Kiev.

http://www.dailydot.com/news/iconic-kiev-photo-2-men/ (http://www.dailydot.com/news/iconic-kiev-photo-2-men/)
You post such bombastic things when you're posting about something political, Nessaj. What is "haunting" about it? Two dudes have a bit of blood on their face. They meet a cop.  Ze end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on February 22, 2014, 02:32:50 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 22, 2014, 02:26:51 pm
a bit

A bit? Easy now Dexter. I don't want to see your version of 'a lot' of blood.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smithy on February 22, 2014, 03:37:14 pm
I love Xant's 'play tough hard guy attitude' towards everything.  :D 

Quote from: Nessaj on February 22, 2014, 02:32:50 pm
Easy now Dexter.

 :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on February 22, 2014, 03:46:26 pm
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http://tjournal.ru/paper/yanuk-residence
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 22, 2014, 04:14:00 pm
Easiest way to spot tyrans: the worst possible taste in everything
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 22, 2014, 04:20:56 pm
Mother of corruption.

(click to show/hide)

Also what is listed on this pic, found in comments section?

It reminds me of some shopping order or something but those look different. Booy dem numbers.

It's some money distributing thing? I can see it means "office xy"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on February 22, 2014, 04:33:13 pm
Apparantly the Ukrainian President was fired by the Parliament today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2014, 04:37:20 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on February 22, 2014, 02:32:50 pm
A bit? Easy now Dexter. I don't want to see your version of 'a lot' of blood.
Face wounds bleed a lot, even if they're not very deep. That's not a lot of blood, relatively speaking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Wiltzu on February 22, 2014, 04:39:54 pm
He refuses to resign "I will never resign. I've been elected so there is no reason for me to resign.". He's in Harkov. He is also blaming opposition for takeover.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2014, 04:41:45 pm
Quote from: WarLord on February 22, 2014, 04:39:46 pm
Damn you Xant. Added that last part of your sentence before I could post. Yeah, relatively that's really not alot of blood.
Yes, it didn't make much sense to say "face wounds bleed a lot. That's not a lot of blood", so I edited. But that really looks a lot worse than it is. A small cut above the eyebrow from just a knuckle could easily account for all the blood of the smaller guy, especially if he's spread it around with his hands by trying to stop the bleeding or whatever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on February 22, 2014, 04:45:00 pm
Quote from: Wiltzu on February 22, 2014, 04:39:54 pm
He refuses to resign "I will never resign. I've been elected so there is no reason for me to resign.". He's in Harkov. He is also blaming opposition for takeover.

Looks like the president has just got ousted by the parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2014, 05:14:31 pm
I'm sure Nessaj would have described your appearance as "haunting."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on February 22, 2014, 05:32:45 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 22, 2014, 05:14:31 pm
I'm sure Nessaj would have described your appearance as "haunting."

You really want to be 'fed' so bad don't you? :P


but we'll keep with some substance instead:

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-spoke-to-police-captured-by-protesters-in-kiev (http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-spoke-to-police-captured-by-protesters-in-kiev)

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-russia-ready-go-war-over-crimea-1437398 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-russia-ready-go-war-over-crimea-1437398)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 22, 2014, 05:40:39 pm
This really reminds me of 1956.

When our CCCPuppet leadership called in the russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 22, 2014, 06:14:12 pm
This is starting to be bloody interesting.
See you in the trenches boys.


Btw how politically legitimate is the vote on firing their own president, according to Ukraine law? Read the article and didnt get everything down. Specifically the method of voting, the appointing of "high officials" (?) and Tymoshenko exact background and political affiliation?
Is it a coup and will the government be able to reform without Yanukovych approval?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 22, 2014, 06:41:07 pm
Quote from: Butan on February 22, 2014, 06:14:12 pm
Btw how politically legitimate is the vote on firing their own president, according to Ukraine law?

I think it's possible in most of countries around the world. It's called impeachment. Also now I'm concerned about the eastern part of Ukraine. President had the biggest electorate there and his team still has the power there. Some of them tried to announce, first, the independence and, second, become the part of Russian Federation (and that makes no sense, how can you become independent and instantly join Russian Federation?), SBU (the same as CIA in US) instantly reacted on this and today they (team of Yanukovych on the east) announced the completely opposite: they want to stay as a solid government like it's written in Constitution. Thus, eastern Ukraine is pretty much getting steamrolled with protesters and president's team there starts losing their powers. But I'm still concerned more about Crimea. There are a lot of Russians there (mostly families of current and former Russian navy militarists). There is a base of Russian fleet right in Crimea, this was also a big problem for Ukraine as the Constitution of Ukraine forbids to have any foreign military forces on the Ukrainian territory but due to contract Ukraine couldn't throw them out, so Ukraine was just waiting for it to end. Unfortunately, Yanukovych was a President by the moment the contract reached the ending date, what he did is simply a betrayal of Ukrainian people and a step against the Constitution - he prolonged it for 40 more years. Russia knows that if the new government comes - Russian navy forces will be asked to leave Crimea that will lead Russia to lose the control of Black Sea. They will find any excuse to fight over the Crimea just to save forces there or even annex it. As I've said, there are a lot of Russians in Crimea (and a lot of them have Russian citizenship which is forbidden by the law of Ukraine) and I guess it will be used as a main excuse to involve Russian military forces. The biggest problem is that people of Crimea will mostly support this as Russia is their original motherland and their families work for Russian military forces.

Basically, Crimea is a weak spot of Ukraine. But I really doubt that Russia is ready for actions in Crimea so I guess they'll just leave it as it is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 22, 2014, 07:12:22 pm
Is it possible to create two countries ? Eastern Russian Ukraine and Western European Ukraine with a big wall in Kiev just like inBerlin ?  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 07:55:52 pm
There will be four parts or more. The Western part of the depart-nationalists. Centre - Tymoshenko. South East with its capital in Kharkiv. And Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 22, 2014, 07:58:16 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 07:55:52 pm
There will be four parts or more. The Western part of the depart-nationalists. Centre - Tymoshenko. South East with its capital in Kharkiv. And Crimea.

THE INVANI4 HAS SPOKEN
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2014, 07:59:14 pm
I hope Russia sends its military in Ukraine and US retaliates by helping the other side with its armed forces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 08:37:15 pm
Why does Russia need to send to Ukraine troops? Tymoshenko may well agree with the Eastern part of Ukraine and together disperse the nationalists. Of course there's another option. It can (temporarily, of course) to unite with the nationalists and try to return the East and Crimea. But it will need your strength, the military forces. However nationalists Western Ukraine are unlikely to agree to the presence of foreign armed forces. "Druzhba" grass-snake and a hedgehog will end...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 22, 2014, 08:55:17 pm
Beautifull girls in Ukraine, anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2014, 08:55:45 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 08:37:15 pm
Why does Russia need to send to Ukraine troops?
I dunno, maybe Russia wants Ukraine for itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 22, 2014, 09:05:33 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 22, 2014, 08:55:45 pm
I dunno, maybe Russia wants Ukraine for itself.

Or maybe they want you to think that way.

Or maybe... you want Russia to control the world, because you are RUSSIA ITSELF!!!

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 22, 2014, 09:16:12 pm
THIS IS RUSSIA !


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6aa_1365146238
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 09:33:51 pm
Every year I have a rest in Crimea. I have relatives in Kharkov and Nikolaev live. Like many Russians, the other in Ukraine does not interest me. If Ukraine will cease to cooperate with Russia in the field of engineering, we earn our machine-building plants. Will the development, construction of new production facilities, creation of new jobs. And this is, incidentally, has started. Sevastopol, Ukraine will receive only 40 years later. If, however, give you all the debts. Now pump the gas 3 gas pipeline to Europe. And only one pass through Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 22, 2014, 09:36:32 pm
Quote from: pepejul on February 22, 2014, 09:16:12 pm
THIS IS RUSSIA !


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6aa_1365146238

i love russian shit  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Miwiw on February 22, 2014, 09:37:41 pm
Dear Russia,

You can have Ukraine. We do not want it.

Sincere,
EU.

PS: Would you like to take Greece as well, pretty please?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2014, 09:40:48 pm
Quote from: Butan on February 22, 2014, 09:05:33 pm
Or maybe they want you to think that way.

Or maybe... you want Russia to control the world, because you are RUSSIA ITSELF!!!
No, but I want the US and Russia to fight. A nice little war right about now would hit the spot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 09:45:00 pm
I think such unnecessary countries are now many.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on February 22, 2014, 10:01:46 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 10:05:07 pm
Ukraine to Russia as a suitcase with a broken handle. And drag uncomfortable. And throw a pity. And fight for it, nor will not. Money, probably will. Gas will. Maybe something will come up with. To maintain fraternal people. And fight let Finland Poland  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on February 22, 2014, 10:20:21 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 10:05:07 pm
Ukraine
 And fight let Finland Poland  :mrgreen:

Ukraine was ours once and now it will be again! Our all 3 tanks (old german Leopards nota bene) are waiting on the border, ready to enter :P


Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 07:55:52 pm
There will be four parts or more. The Western part of the depart-nationalists. Centre - Tymoshenko. South East with its capital in Kharkiv. And Crimea.

And Lwow, Poland will take it :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 22, 2014, 10:26:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 22, 2014, 09:40:48 pm
No, but I want the US and Russia to fight. A nice little war right about now would hit the spot.

I know your type. There are people who want the blood of others, they provoke to get guns into action but when they hear gunshots - they're the first who run away being scared to shit. I wouldn't be surprised if you never even held a real gun in your hands.

Also, to what Ivani4 said about Russian industry being useful and vital to Ukraine (at least I got it that way). It's a big lie that Putin uses in order to get the support of Ukrainian people and looks like even Putin's own people tend to believe it (Ivani4 is an example if I got his message right). Russian industry is just nothing unfortunately. It's mostly extremely outdated technologies (USSR) with combination of cheap Chinese low quality "hi-tec" (if you've ever seen/used Russian cars i.e. you would understand what I mean, they even became a meme in their own motherland as being complete shit). Whatever "hi-tec" projects Russian made were complete fails with a lot of proud for Motherland (one can't simply remove their chauvinism). I can call a million of such fails: their super duper ballistic rockets which were the pride of nation failed even to fly (several explosions during a couple of years, one space rocket exploded with millions if not billions of dollars worth equipment), their innovative smart-phone which they were very proud of (even former president Medvedev is using it) is a mediocre phone that is completely made and assembled in China, Olympic flame with the first torch in the history that had its fire extinguished more than 50 times. And all this shit happens because of enormous corruption that is probably even worse than Ukraine. And it's obvious that smart people don't want to follow the Russian way, this is just hopeless. Also, Russia is the richest country in the world resource-wise and this nation lives like a 3rd world country, basically only Moscow and St. Petersburg are pretty much viable to live, in other cities teacher or a surgeon don't get more than $500 per month officially.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 22, 2014, 10:59:33 pm
That's only partly true. Another part is that ukrainian industry is not better and our production is mostly exported to Russia, noone else need it. If Russia will close borders - many factories will be closed and people will lose their jobs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 11:30:58 pm
Dave, I think that now, to restore order in the country, the people of Ukraine will be plenty of time to think about which way to go. The main thing that all in one direction. The Yugoslav variant of Ukraine does not wish to Russia. And the people of Ukraine better will not live.

Although, it may be... the Main thing to say, like our grandmothers: but for war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 23, 2014, 12:27:17 am
Quote from: serr on February 22, 2014, 10:59:33 pm
That's only partly true. Another part is that ukrainian industry is not better and our production is mostly exported to Russia, noone else need it. If Russia will close borders - many factories will be closed and people will lose their jobs

Yeah, Ukrainian industry is not only worse, Ukrainian industry basically doesn't exist. We have hard times now and I doubt that Russia will close borders because it will be a hit for their economy as well. If we only have Russia buying products from our factories then it's a good sign that we do things wrong. Buying products of Ukrainian factories Russia actually harms, it's a paradox but it's true. Such situation just makes these factories busy while Russia can always just stop everything, good way to manipulate. I'm definitely against closing borders, firing hate towards Russians in hearts of Ukrainians. But there should be common sense, you cannot trust a hostile neighbour (i'm speaking about Putin, not about Russians). Putin loves to brag with his army but it's just a bluffing illusion. Russian Army is not even a shadow of Soviet Army: Russians themselves are not the same and I highly doubt you can make current Russian youth go die for Putin and the vast majority tries to evade the obligate service in army just taking part in corruption giving money here and there. Russian Army fought against Chechnya (the population of the whole country was 10 times less than only Moscow's population) for 10 years and very doubtfully won it simply buying everyone there, while current population is extremely unhappy about Putin giving enormous amount of money there.

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 22, 2014, 11:30:58 pm
Dave, I think that now, to restore order in the country, the people of Ukraine will be plenty of time to think about which way to go. The main thing that all in one direction. The Yugoslav variant of Ukraine does not wish to Russia. And the people of Ukraine better will not live.

Although, it may be... the Main thing to say, like our grandmothers: but for war.

There is simply no other way rather than all in one direction. I simply don't see any reason to give Russia another chance, why trying to unite with country that struggles with its own big problems. Just transfer this current situation on the personal level. Imagine that you're Ukraine and you need a living place. If you had to decide between a house with bums/thugs/alcoholics in criminal block and a house with trustworthy families, what would you pick? There is nothing even to think about. If Russia didn't have problems that it has now - Ukrainians would DEFINITELY think because Russians are closer to Ukrainians than any nation in all categories. But now it's impossible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 23, 2014, 12:54:32 am
Quote
Yeah, Ukrainian industry is not only worse, Ukrainian industry basically doesn't exist.

I live in Zaporozhye and every day I can smell in the air that our industry does exist :lol:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 23, 2014, 01:04:47 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 22, 2014, 10:26:34 pm
I know your type. There are people who want the blood of others, they provoke to get guns into action but when they hear gunshots - they're the first who run away being scared to shit. I wouldn't be surprised if you never even held a real gun in your hands.
I've been in the military, bro.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 23, 2014, 01:13:30 am
Quote from: Xant on February 23, 2014, 01:04:47 am
I've been in the military, bro.

I know, you were this guy !

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 23, 2014, 02:00:11 am
isn't peacefull splitting of the country the best option when its so divided? living in multi-cultural country is extremely difficult and takes a lot of understanding and mature behavior from population. i don't see this can be achieved in the ukraine, especially when people are really poor there. i think there will be more examples in the future (scotland, belgium, catalonia...) as there were in not so distant past (kosovo, czechoslovakia).

when majority of population lets say in crimea would like to join russia, well what can you do against it (and should you even do anything against it?). the same goes to western ukraine.

i'm sure this is what putin desires and plans for, i'm even sure he'd like to embrace eastern ukraine with its world most fertile sold as well. but is it really a bad option, better than artificially trying to hold something together?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 23, 2014, 02:34:19 am
I don't think there will be splitting of the country or violence like in Yugoslavia. That was a much more artificial state than Ukraine, and the people were nationalistic with a much more deeply rooted identity.

There is still of course a fine line of balance to be had for Ukraine between the west and Russia in the future.. It's actually interesting to take the point of view from Russia in this matter. Would be nice to hear opinions from Russians here as well. What are you afraid of now? Be honest. :)

Personally I have no idea.. It could be that this would create a greater divide within the russian population of Russia (like the divide in ukraine) on the opinion of the west. Some will see the west as a threat, others as a democratic blessing? How would this be used by those in power? And can they stop the internet?

It also really depends on how Ukraine is faring after this.. It would be to Putin's (Not Russia's) advantage if it didn't go well, and that is a source of worry..

What I hope is for the Russian internal system to change, without loosing the strength it has. A democracy is more efficient than the corrupt nightmare it currently is, and that's why Russia in its current form eventually _will_ loose the battle.   BUT! There needs to be a balance in this world, and if EU/US becomes too dominating it is not good.. Syria would be just a one sided affair and the crazy muslims would be in power. (i.ex)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 23, 2014, 02:45:58 am
French photographer filming snipers killing pple around him...

Very hard to see that..If you are senstive please don't watch.... You can feel the pain, the fear but the bravery of these unarmed pple just dying there... Why do they stay under fire ?

WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT (pple killed)
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Incredible footage : just like if you were in the middle of hell : http://youtu.be/qSvj8F_Br4M
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2014, 03:09:54 am
Quote from: pepejul on February 23, 2014, 02:45:58 am
French photographer filming snipers killing pple around him...

Very hard to see that..If you are senstive please don't watch.... You can feel the pain, the fear but the bravery of these unarmed pple just dying there... Why do they stay under fire ?

WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT (pple killed)
(click to show/hide)

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Incredible footage : just like if you were in the middle of hell : http://youtu.be/qSvj8F_Br4M

fucking hell

http://ars-himmel.livejournal.com/127591.html (http://ars-himmel.livejournal.com/127591.html)

I've seen this in the comment section, it says these are 'fake berkut soldiers' with yellow stripes.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


What's up with that, is this true?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kirman on February 23, 2014, 03:36:26 am
Quote from: pepejul on February 23, 2014, 02:45:58 am
French photographer filming snipers killing pple around him...

Very hard to see that..If you are senstive please don't watch.... You can feel the pain, the fear but the bravery of these unarmed pple just dying there... Why do they stay under fire ?

WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT (pple killed)
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)


Incredible footage : just like if you were in the middle of hell : http://youtu.be/qSvj8F_Br4M

Now this is sad, i've read lots of articles about protests in Ukraine. Some of them were saying protestors are fascist etc etc.. But killing people cause of protests that's sick. I don't care about their ideology and i hope the current government will have to face with this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Aelfwine on February 23, 2014, 03:57:41 am
Damn me i just have to post this...

There is an interesting (long, 1h 46m) documentary about the 1992 romanian revolution: "Videogramme einer revolution" aka Videograms of a revolution, Harun Farocki, Andrei Ujica. It's easy to find.

God and all the saints are whispering to me it may be instructive for ukrainians mostly but for everyone really. Needs to be watched carefully though.
I don't believe in god or the saints but i have to obey.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2014, 04:02:30 am
http://imgur.com/gallery/RIfCRyT
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2014, 07:47:24 am
They raided Yanukovych's villa. Holy crap its got its own greenhouse, zoo, golfcourse and shit.
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Its got basically everything. I mean good god, this is pretty much what a mansion would look like if they made a sequel to the movie "Dictator".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 23, 2014, 08:38:56 am
Quote from: Christo on February 23, 2014, 03:09:54 am
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First thought that came to my mind:
Maybe some nationalist sick fucks started to stir up shit this way to get/keep the violence going...
No foundation but German history, gut feeling and a low opinion about anything right from the middle (of common sense).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 23, 2014, 09:08:04 am
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No, those guys with yellow stripes are not fake, there are several videos where you can see them cooperate with other police. Actually you can see them on video Pepe posted.

Another video where you can see them better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqWB5eJ2NpA#t=65

About how russians view this... It depends what information do they use. They have very specific media. While western media also tended to show mostly violence against protesters and less how protesters were throwing Molotovs(that is what I understand from this topic), it is completely different for Russia. Government and Putin control almost all tv channels and what they show can be decsribed as propaganda, according to them all protesters are neochocolate chip cookie hired by USA who started violence without any reason and that only mistake made by Yanukovich is that he didn't order to use fire guns with live rounds from the very beginning.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 23, 2014, 09:25:56 am
Quote from: Thomek on February 23, 2014, 02:34:19 am
Personally I have no idea.. It could be that this would create a greater divide within the russian population of Russia (like the divide in ukraine) on the opinion of the west. Some will see the west as a threat, others as a democratic blessing? How would this be used by those in power? And can they stop the internet?
We have Olympics to watch, nobody gives a shit :) Want to know Russian opinion? Read Russia Today http://rt.com/ Due to biased tv propaganda, Russian opinion is pretty solid about most topics.


More pictures of Yanukovich' Cabin in the Woods:
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1007568.html
Even ship & Zoo...
Although everybody was telling about the Golden Toilet... But there are no golden toilets in his house! Damn opposition just wanted to make honest President to look bad! Shame on them! :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 23, 2014, 10:05:22 am
http://yandex.ru/video/search?filmId=U64U0iK0UXI&where=all&text=%D0%B3.%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%20%D1%8D%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%B0%20%D0%BC%D1%91%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B4%D1%91%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85

Read. There are audio book for a long time. Gleb Bobrov, "the age born dead". 2007
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 23, 2014, 10:45:51 am
Quote
Read. There are audio book for a long time. Gleb Bobrov, "the age born dead". 2007

Thank you, will read, but don't expect too much from it. At least video there looks like some anti EU propaganda where EU is evil and Russia is good. World is more complex than that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 23, 2014, 10:55:04 am
Russia in the book is almost there. The plot of Russia is not involved in the conflict... So to say, to spit it to Ukraine. http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/AFGAN/BOBROW_G/epoha.txt
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 23, 2014, 11:15:09 am
I am myself more than 50% Russian (If I counted right, I'm almost 3/4 Russian and 1/4 Ukrainian or maybe 1/2-1/2), I've been to most of EU countries and I know how different things are in EU, Ukraine and Russia. I've also been to eastern Ukrainian cities, like what Serr posted, these cities are extremely polluted by outdated and mostly useless industry factories. Well, these factories give working places to people but besides that their meaning of existence is doubtful. They all need to be modernised to fill the gab in the Ukrainian economy. For instance, Ukraine is in top 10 of countries in the World producing coal among with such giants as USA, China, India and Russia. And all the mines are located on the east of Ukraine. I've been to industrial cities, they look like post-apocalyptic soviet cities. And I doubt that anyone who has seen European countries would want to unite with Russia.

Also, as I've already stated: the current opposition who has obtained power in the Parliament now is not much better so things won't change drastically.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 23, 2014, 11:28:05 am
While I agree that they are not much better, I really like all the work they are doing in parliament right now. Yes, probably they are not better as people and they came to power for personal gain as well, but I believe they are smarter than Yanukovich and they must be much more careful, which is very good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 23, 2014, 01:21:21 pm
Even if the new people in charge are not much better than the old, it's very important that the population asserts its power to overthrow a government. Representative democracy doesn't guarantee that the elected will do anything good. The thing that actually guarantees that those in charge don't turn into dictators is the fear that if they don't behave they might end up in a gutter the next day. The population needs to show that it is more powerful than the government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 23, 2014, 02:05:11 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 23, 2014, 01:21:21 pm
Even if the new people in charge are not much better than the old, it's very important that the population asserts its power to overthrow a government. Representative democracy doesn't guarantee that the elected will do anything good. The thing that actually guarantees that those in charge don't turn into dictators is the fear that if they don't behave they might end up in a gutter the next day. The population needs to show that it is more powerful than the government.


Yep, if they stop now, it means that they didnt accomplish anything than national unstability, which re-opened the gates of the old time (Tymochenko) and gave credence to challengers (Klitschko) but noone new really, and I doubt they are the innocent and naive politicians they try to look like.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 23, 2014, 02:21:26 pm
Quote from: Butan on February 23, 2014, 02:05:11 pm

Yep, if they stop now, it means that they didnt accomplish anything than national unstability, which re-opened the gates of the old time (Tymochenko) and gave credence to challengers (Klitschko) but noone new really, and I doubt they are the innocent and naive politicians they try to look like.

The problem is that to make a reasonable choice you have to assume you will never end up with a good leader. Never. Yet many people always vote with the intention of making the good candidate win when really they don't want any of them to win. The best way to get good and efficient leadership is to make sure whoever gets elected has a good reason to actually do it, or at least not do bad things. And there's no better way to acheive that than to make sure they are punished somehow if they fuck things up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 23, 2014, 02:29:45 pm
Thanks Segd. Yeah my father is an RT fan and old communist. I do get exposed to it! (And at times it's even a great channel to show another side than what the mainstream flock of western media shows..)

Anyway, what about Klitchko? I really liked him before all this. Is he incorruptible? Will he set a new standard for Ukrainian politicians? What you think?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on February 23, 2014, 02:44:13 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 23, 2014, 03:09:54 am
fucking hell

http://ars-himmel.livejournal.com/127591.html (http://ars-himmel.livejournal.com/127591.html)

I've seen this in the comment section, it says these are 'fake berkut soldiers' with yellow stripes.

(click to show/hide)

What's up with that, is this true?

Roughly the same shit happened here in Turkey during the Gezi protests. At times, hundreds of police officers appeared without identity numbers on the back of their helmets (which is mandatory for reporting abuse and illegal not to use). Those times ended up being the worst for protesters. There are serious doubts that they were enthusiastic government dogs who were given police attire to don. Also, they didn't even disguise themselves from time to time. There are numerous videos showing herds of ordinary looking swines with nailed clubs following the police line closely. They chased protesters down into dark alleys and comfortably beat them up under total police protection. One such group of civil swines even beat a 19 year-old university student to death under coordination of an undercover cop.

Yes, all cops are truly genuine bastards. Just saying, this is what the world has come to. If another uprising breaks out anywhere else, we will just see further examples of national security forces being used as hired murderers. Murderers of their own people that is.

Personally, I still can't get over the horror that happened here. Things seem to be quite grim over there in Ukraine too. People lost their lives. Still, they managed to get the government to back off. The octopus-headed fascist that haunts us doesn't look like he has any honor inside him to respond to a large-scale uprising the way an honorable man is supposed. It is obvious that more terrible days are awaiting us.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 23, 2014, 02:46:36 pm
is there a way between fascism and corruption ?  :?  (don't answer me Religion please !)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on February 23, 2014, 03:03:11 pm
Quote from: pepejul on February 23, 2014, 02:46:36 pm
is there a way between fascism and corruption ?  :?  (don't answer me Religion please !)

In my opinion, fascism initially is born out of the sense of self-righteousness, which eventually grows enough to become the tumor that is fascism. When the poison of self-righteousness taints the soul of an individual, society or nation even, anything becomes legitimate for them to reassure their allegedly rightful position and suppress whoever they think is the wrong party involved.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 23, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Quote from: pepejul on February 23, 2014, 02:46:36 pm
is there a way between fascism and corruption ?  :?  (don't answer me Religion please !)

Don't you know the rules? The third faction is always the aliens.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 23, 2014, 04:19:25 pm
I would welcome such pieces of information if you didnt put the "all cops are pigs" on top of it Flockula.

Also the comments on how policemen are hired to murder their own people during uprising/revolts/demonstrations/etc, notwithstanding the term "murderer", the policemen ARE SUPPOSED to intervene inside the country which hires them. Thus their job is actually doing actions "against" their own people. Or do you suggest the policemen should only arrest/detain outsiders?


Police = Ministry of Security (interior)
Military = Ministry of Defense (exterior)


What would be exceptionnal is sending policemen to participate in an invasion, or sending military to do anti-riot stuff. Then we can discuss ad nauseam the legitimacy of using force (either proportionned or disproportionned force, quite subjective matter too), but there is no point discussing why policemen are where they are atm, and doing what they are doing.


I know you're not discovering those facts, just pointing bad arguments.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on February 23, 2014, 05:44:00 pm
The police forces in my country, dear Butan, were not even counter attacked by the protesters as they were in Ukraine (Ukrainians did the better thing I guess). Still they murdered their own people, mostly very young university students. The ones they didn't murder they gave popped eyes with gas shells intenionally aimed at the eyes. Hell they even shot a 14 year-old in the head with a gas shell from a very close distance at a time when there wasn't even a protest and the boy was simply out to buy some bread from the bakery. All alone and not signalling any threat or anything. He has been in comatose status for months.

Well, you may have your point and believe that I have bad arguements. Ok, let us not call all cops bastards everywhere. But nobody can change the fact that all of them are bastards over here. What you don't know is that a huge majority of our current police officers are nobodies in their twenties who have no skills or intellect whatsoever and were mass recruited within the last decade in return for pledging full obedience to our prime tumor. They are indeed bastards. They aren't there to protect the people. They are there to protect our very own prime tumor.

There is no legitimacy at all to be talked about here. It may not be apparent from outside but Turkey is running towards complete dictatorship. And sadly, it is a fact that our policemen are hired murderers at the moment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 23, 2014, 06:15:14 pm
It's extremely childish to claim that "all" of the police officers in your country are "bastards."

Real life is not Lord of the Rings and there are no orcs and no Sauron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on February 23, 2014, 06:20:37 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 23, 2014, 06:15:14 pm
It's extremely childish to claim that "all" of the police officers in your country are "bastards."

Real life is not Lord of the Rings and there are no orcs and no Sauron.

Oh, Xant is here to blow everything into bebop because he is the one who knows it all.

Anyway, I am withdrawing from the thread. It is about Ukraine and making the mistake of wasting time with Xant won't do it any good after all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 23, 2014, 06:58:03 pm
What you say will always happens when there is of armed people involved (either both side or one) and noone give up. It happens in democratic and dictatorship countries. I would say the only difference is the media coverage : if there is none and noone cares, the ruling caste can feel more free to act harshly toward acts of rebellions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 23, 2014, 07:59:27 pm
Quote from: Daunt_Flockula on February 23, 2014, 06:20:37 pm
Oh, Xant is here to blow everything into bebop because he is the one who knows it all.

Anyway, I am withdrawing from the thread. It is about Ukraine and making the mistake of wasting time with Xant won't do it any good after all.
Yeah, I do know better than someone who believes in Orcs and Absolute Evil, you're right about that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 23, 2014, 08:49:13 pm
Speaking of russian media:

A russian TV does a live interview with the "wrong" politician, asking an opposition member for comments by mistake :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 23, 2014, 11:09:36 pm
The english traduction in the description of the video for the lazy like me:


________________________________


A fairly unexpected, yet very straight-forward statement, as for Russian television, was made by Leonid Pilunsky, a member of Crimean Parliament today.
In a live feed of Russian news on a state run station, an anchor asked MP Leonid Pilunsky from Crimea about the situation there.

Here is his response:

"In Crimea everything is peaceful; except that we feel that the Crimean's government consisting of members of the Party of Regions that have been in power for the last 12 years have stolen from people so much that they are afraid of any changes in government. They are the only ones that worsen situation in Crimnea, and organize "titushki" and "gopniki" for some meetings. Yesterday, they attempted to change the Constitution even though Crimnea's government has no power to do so since they do not represent all citizens of Crimnea. The situation is calm for the most part; people do not participate in their organized meetings. Any support for Maidan is peaceful and absolutely harmless...Maximum 200 people will come together in support of Maidan in Crimea, and they quietly and peacefully..... [the phone line got disconnected and the TV anchor blamed bad telephone connection]. "




What does "titushki" and "gopniki" means exactly?

And is what the man says a proof that some regions are already trying to seek to secede or basically change their flags?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 23, 2014, 11:32:43 pm
Titushki/gopniki are bandits and thugs that are allegedly hired by government to harass and attack protesters and opposition members.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 24, 2014, 09:10:11 am
22.04 Reuters is reporting that a prominent Russian state TV host has said that ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych betrayed his people when he fled Kiev, an uncompromising verdict on a leader President Vladimir Putin had hoped would bring Ukraine closer to Moscow's orbit.


Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10656312/Ukraine-revolution-live.html

Apparently, the Russians are abandoning this failed politician.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 24, 2014, 09:12:19 am
Everyone is abandoning him now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 24, 2014, 09:20:59 am
Check out this video from 18th Feb:

http://www.pravda.com.ua/photo-video/2014/02/23/7015996/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on February 24, 2014, 09:33:29 am
Quote from: Corwin on February 24, 2014, 09:20:59 am
Check out this video from 18th Feb:

http://www.pravda.com.ua/photo-video/2014/02/23/7015996/

impressive video,  thank you corwin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 24, 2014, 02:16:03 pm
Quote from: Corwin on February 24, 2014, 09:10:11 am
22.04 Reuters is reporting that a prominent Russian state TV host has said that ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych betrayed his people when he fled Kiev, an uncompromising verdict on a leader President Vladimir Putin had hoped would bring Ukraine closer to Moscow's orbit.


Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10656312/Ukraine-revolution-live.html

Apparently, the Russians are abandoning this failed politician.


Could be a hint but we would need more to be sure that Russia is abandoning him. Isnt he atm believed to be near the Russian border, kinda under their protection?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 24, 2014, 02:21:54 pm
Nah, he is really abandoned by everyone, the main problem right now is in Crimea - there people ask Putin to protect them from ukrainian chocolate chip cookies.
As for Yanukovich, they call him traitor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 24, 2014, 03:18:57 pm
One thing I do not understand, and I would appreaciate if someone explained it to me. How come Crimea went to Ukraine in the first place, after dissolution of USSR?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on February 24, 2014, 03:49:40 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 24, 2014, 04:00:38 pm
Well, it doesn't really explain political implications that led to that decision, and the reason why this wasn't renegotiated when it became clear that Ukraine and Russia will separate. As this article on Wiki says, people on Crimea were going back and forth between desire to be part of Ukraine and to be independent (probably to be able to join Russia).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 24, 2014, 04:44:12 pm
USSR wasn't really known for respecting the wishes of its populace or logic or other things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 24, 2014, 04:46:53 pm
Probably just one side or the other (russian or independance) won influence back and forth during all those years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 24, 2014, 05:35:39 pm
Quote from: Corwin on February 24, 2014, 03:18:57 pm
One thing I do not understand, and I would appreaciate if someone explained it to me. How come Crimea went to Ukraine in the first place, after dissolution of USSR?

In 1954 it was transferred to Ukraine and was a part of Ukraine since then. Apparently it remained a part of Ukraine after USSR got dissolved.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on February 24, 2014, 07:10:34 pm
Song for Ukrania :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 24, 2014, 10:26:18 pm
What is Ukraine? Before the revolution in Russia was Malorussia. Ukraine (USSR - the Ukrainian Soviet socialist Republic) started to do Lenin. He annexed to , part of the areas of Novorossia (Odessa, Kherson, Nikolaev) and Donbass. And Chernigov. And officially called it education «Ukraine». Name Malorussia (Ruthenia) obsolete and after was not used. So when the Communists who wanted to neutralize nationalism in the Western territories. Russian Donbass, Kharkov, Krivoy Rog, Odessa, Chernihiv were part of Ukraine. Or   people Malorussia was dissolved in the peoples of Russia.
 Stalin, after the war, annexed to this country Galicia.
Under Stalin expelled from the Crimea Crimean Tatars. After Stalin's death, the Crimean Tatars began to slowly return to the Crimea. Khrushchev decided to transfer the Crimea under the Ukrainian leadership. Perhaps he thought that if the Russians in Ukraine crushed nationalism «западенцев», and will not give rise nationalism Tatars...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corsair831 on February 24, 2014, 11:22:37 pm
ALL HAIL LORD IVANI4

https://soundcloud.com/user473991749/ivani4-speech
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 25, 2014, 12:27:02 am
In the opinion of the peoples of Russia and Belarus, people Malorussia were greedy and selfish. They always think about their own benefit. Even saying was: Where crest passed, there Jew has nothing to do. They even lived separately, in hamlets. They sought to always обособится. For all his troubles, they blamed the neighbor. Therefore villages were little.
Separatism rural residents Malorussia is one of the essential features of the character.
Why the residents of Odessa, Kherson (Novorossia)not such? They live near the sea. In the sea to catch fish should artel. Plunder in the sea should be gang.
Why are the residents of Belarus to live differently? Because when it's cold. Because the harvest is not always great. And what would survive, they must be together. We should help. We should share. This is a completely different mentality.
People Malorussia always pulled and will pull the blanket to their side. Search only for their own benefit. Take and to fence the fence. The search for enemies among the neighbors. My new country, they will be sharing the region. The area will be divided into small areas. And so on. While not divided, all the lands under their family gardens. They build tall fences and will to receive pleasure.
They are not bad. They are what they are. Hundreds of years they lived. This already but genetics. They don't fix it. have to give them land. We need to help them build fences.
Here it is right. Just do not tell them then, that someone lives better than they. What have someone more land. That somewhere you can get something for free.
 :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corsair831 on February 25, 2014, 12:46:25 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 25, 2014, 12:27:02 am
In the opinion of the peoples of Russia and Belarus, people Malorussia were greedy and selfish. They always think about their own benefit. Even saying was: Where crest passed, there Jew has nothing to do. They even lived separately, in hamlets. They sought to always обособится. For all his troubles, they blamed the neighbor. Therefore villages were little.
Separatism rural residents Malorussia is one of the essential features of the character.
Why the residents of Odessa, Kherson (Novorossia)not such? They live near the sea. In the sea to catch fish should artel. Plunder in the sea should be gang.
Why are the residents of Belarus to live differently? Because when it's cold. Because the harvest is not always great. And what would survive, they must be together. We should help. We should share. This is a completely different mentality.
People Malorussia always pulled and will pull the blanket to their side. Search only for their own benefit. Take and to fence the fence. The search for enemies among the neighbors. My new country, they will be sharing the region. The area will be divided into small areas. And so on. While not divided, all the lands under their family gardens. They build tall fences and will to receive pleasure.
They are not bad. They are what they are. Hundreds of years they lived. This already but genetics. They don't fix it. have to give them land. We need to help them build fences.
Here it is right. Just do not tell them then, that someone lives better than they. What have someone more land. That somewhere you can get something for free.
 :wink:

mate, i'm not reading that

i struggled to get through 2 paragraphs without laughing :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 25, 2014, 12:52:15 am
Ivanich is like DKG but respected  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smithy on February 25, 2014, 12:58:10 am
Quote from: Corsair831 on February 25, 2014, 12:46:25 am
mate, i'm not reading that

i struggled to get through 2 paragraphs without laughing :D

It actually makes more sense than his previous post.  :)

I think it would be nice if Ivani would post in his native language which I assume is Russian, and then someone like Segd can come in and translate for us, hopefully producing something more readable.   :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 25, 2014, 01:10:13 am
Quote from: Corsair831 on February 24, 2014, 11:22:37 pm
ALL HAIL LORD IVANI4

https://soundcloud.com/user473991749/ivani4-speech

ahahaha this made my day already, and it's 1 AM  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: vipere on February 25, 2014, 02:55:18 am
I'm trying to find out who is that 1 point infamy guy.

When i find it, i will call it to you Ivani4, i know you have your nkvd crew ready for that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 25, 2014, 04:49:57 am
So does this mean there won't be a war, or is there still hope?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tot. on February 25, 2014, 07:05:33 am
Xant, you really got to stop trying so hard all the time to be edgy and shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 25, 2014, 07:25:47 am
Why? And not being edgy. Why do you think what I said is edgy?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 09:51:57 am
Quote from: Xant on February 25, 2014, 07:25:47 am
Why? And not being edgy. Why do you think what I said is edgy?

Because your tongue is sharp, everything you say is edgy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 25, 2014, 10:00:10 am
Quote from: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 09:51:57 am
Because your tongue is sharp, everything you say is edgy.

He could be considered emo from just him licking his wrists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 25, 2014, 10:33:33 am
Quote from: Xant on February 25, 2014, 07:25:47 am
Why? And not being edgy. Why do you think what I said is edgy?

Basically you're following the path of Olwen. People first thought that he was a fat troll finding deep sense in his words and then realized that it was senseless bullshit mostly and he is simply a weird guy if not retard. Just curious what you were doing during military service because I have 2 options: 1st is most likely you're simply lying, 2nd is that you're a victim of military hazing.

Back to the topic. The President election campaign just started today and will last till 30 of March.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 25, 2014, 10:57:26 am
Please don't make this topic about Xant. I personally stopped paying attention to his bullshit long time ago. I think he just misses Siem, so he is attention whoring a lil' bit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 25, 2014, 11:01:16 am
All media reported about the destruction of Lenin's monuments in Ukraine. I thought long. Why? Why someone destroys monuments? Why someone protects the monument to Lenin? Indeed, in Russia, however, to Lenin no long love. Not long ago hatred. Monuments to Lenin is not even a monument. It's not even a sculpture. This element of decor in the square or on the square. In big cities - Lenin large size. In small towns is very small. To this place of the inhabitants do not bring flowers. So why is there some strange fuss around these monuments, about that long is not remembered for more than 15 years already?
And I each had an Epiphany! All the monuments to Lenin are at the heart of communities! Do you need Navigator. If You saw the statue of Lenin, it means you are in the centre of the city or village. Then You have come to the local Maidan!
For residents of the Western regions of Ukraine - Maidan in Kyiv. They is Owners of lone. To make decisions, to communicate, to gain emotions (and where else could have fun peasant?) and forces, peasants are in Kiev (But only when you do not need to pay for the fare).
But how to capture all of Ukraine? You cannot give people unite! You do not want to accept the consolidated decisions! But there are people in Eastern Ukraine has many of the Maidan! And someone very smart said: «Destroy monuments to Lenin. So the people in the East of Ukraine will not know where to gather, where decisions. And only we, the Western Ukrainians, will become the most powerful and cohesive. Then the victory will be ours!».
But who protects monuments to Lenin? Old people. Old people who can't see very well. Old people who can't use computers, cell phones, and devices. They (as well as Western Ukrainians) oriented to the terrain of the monuments targets. They help the young guys. They respect their elders. These young men and women want to save the landmarks, monuments facilities for the elderly. Although almost all Eastern Ukrainians have smart phones, computers, tablets, and navigators. I think it's good. Old people need help. And not to create a cause for anxiety.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 25, 2014, 11:11:00 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 25, 2014, 11:01:16 am
All media reported about the destruction of Lenin's monuments in Ukraine. I thought long. Why? Why someone destroys monuments? Why someone protects the monument to Lenin? Indeed, in Russia, however, to Lenin no long love. Not long ago hatred. Monuments to Lenin is not even a monument. It's not even a sculpture. This element of decor in the square or on the square. In big cities - Lenin large size. In small towns is very small. To this place of the inhabitants do not bring flowers. So why is there some strange fuss around these monuments, about that long is not remembered for more than 15 years already?
And I each had an Epiphany! All the monuments to Lenin are at the heart of communities! Do you need Navigator. If You saw the statue of Lenin, it means you are in the centre of the city or village. Then You have come to the local Maidan!
For residents of the Western regions of Ukraine - Maidan in Kyiv. They is Owners of lone. To make decisions, to communicate, to gain emotions (and where else could have fun peasant?) and forces, peasants are in Kiev (But only when you do not need to pay for the fare).
But how to capture all of Ukraine? You cannot give people unite! You do not want to accept the consolidated decisions! But there are people in Eastern Ukraine has many of the Maidan! And someone very smart said: «Destroy monuments to Lenin. So the people in the East of Ukraine will not know where to gather, where decisions. And only we, the Western Ukrainians, will become the most powerful and cohesive. Then the victory will be ours!».
But who protects monuments to Lenin? Old people. Old people who can't see very well. Old people who can't use computers, cell phones, and devices. They (as well as Western Ukrainians) oriented to the terrain of the monuments targets. They help the young guys. They respect their elders. These young men and women want to save the landmarks, monuments facilities for the elderly. Although almost all Eastern Ukrainians have smart phones, computers, tablets, and navigators. I think it's good. Old people need help. And not to create a cause for anxiety.

Come on  :lol: Saving monuments of Lenin to make it easier to navigate? We're in 21st century. I don't support the removal of monuments with this barbaric methods but I can understand it. Why having it? It symbolizes something that people don't want to see. Wouldn't it be hypocritical to mourn victims of Golodomor and have Lenin's monuments?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 25, 2014, 11:12:52 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 25, 2014, 11:11:00 am
Come on  :lol: Saving monuments of Lenin to make it easier to navigate? We're in 21st century. I don't support the removal of monuments with this barbaric methods but I can understand it. Why having it? It symbolizes something that people don't want to see. Wouldn't it be hypocritical to mourn victims of Golodomor and have Lenin's monuments?
That question is prohibited by russian history teachers and student books. Please move along to your local still standing lenin monument. :arrow:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on February 25, 2014, 11:16:48 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 25, 2014, 11:01:16 am
I thought long.


How long, comrade ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 25, 2014, 01:14:44 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 25, 2014, 12:27:02 am
(click to show/hide)

He is quite right. This is really why USSR collapsed in the first place. The "filling you own pockets" mentality first is quite the reason why the corruption is so high in Russia and ex-USSR nations. The corruption and stealing was litterally so great, its kinda suprising USSR even survived as long as it did. Its kinda funny listening to old people talk about how things worked in the Baltics when it was part of the Soviet Union. There wasnt violence(during its final years) atleast in our countries. It was  all just silly shows and petty stealing. Everyone laughs now about how unregulated everything was and how everyone just denied it. Soviet Union was basically a union of Stealing gypsies. When it collapsed the borders may have changed, but that mentality didnt. In some countries more, in some less.

Also I think Ukraine is screwed. Putin will never give it up easly. Technically its more a part of Russia then its own country. As sad is it may seem. Also pretty sure he doesnt want to be the one, on whose watch Russia lost a lot of its former influence. Not to mention Ukraine is its gateway to the west. And the West wont help either when Russia treatens enough. Our "world police" is kinda helpless in this case, when they are going against an imperialistical superpower such as Russia, where a countries success is measured by how many square kilometers it has.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 25, 2014, 01:28:21 pm
Yeah, well, for what it's worth, the Georgian scenario doesn't sound likely. From what I understand, Ukraine has quite a decent army, and especially anti-aircraft devices?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 01:40:06 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 25, 2014, 01:14:44 pm
superpower such as Russia

lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 25, 2014, 01:41:03 pm
http://yanukovychleaks.org/

Quote from: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 01:40:06 pm
lol
What would you call it then? It is not as powerful as USSR was, but it's still one of the greater powers around.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on February 25, 2014, 01:49:45 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 25, 2014, 11:01:16 am
All media reported about the destruction of Lenin's monuments in Ukraine. I thought long. Why? Why someone destroys monuments? Why someone protects the monument to Lenin? Indeed, in Russia, however, to Lenin no long love. Not long ago hatred. Monuments to Lenin is not even a monument. It's not even a sculpture. This element of decor in the square or on the square. In big cities - Lenin large size. In small towns is very small. To this place of the inhabitants do not bring flowers. So why is there some strange fuss around these monuments, about that long is not remembered for more than 15 years already?
And I each had an Epiphany! All the monuments to Lenin are at the heart of communities! Do you need Navigator. If You saw the statue of Lenin, it means you are in the centre of the city or village. Then You have come to the local Maidan!
For residents of the Western regions of Ukraine - Maidan in Kyiv. They is Owners of lone. To make decisions, to communicate, to gain emotions (and where else could have fun peasant?) and forces, peasants are in Kiev (But only when you do not need to pay for the fare).
But how to capture all of Ukraine? You cannot give people unite! You do not want to accept the consolidated decisions! But there are people in Eastern Ukraine has many of the Maidan! And someone very smart said: «Destroy monuments to Lenin. So the people in the East of Ukraine will not know where to gather, where decisions. And only we, the Western Ukrainians, will become the most powerful and cohesive. Then the victory will be ours!».
But who protects monuments to Lenin? Old people. Old people who can't see very well. Old people who can't use computers, cell phones, and devices. They (as well as Western Ukrainians) oriented to the terrain of the monuments targets. They help the young guys. They respect their elders. These young men and women want to save the landmarks, monuments facilities for the elderly. Although almost all Eastern Ukrainians have smart phones, computers, tablets, and navigators. I think it's good. Old people need help. And not to create a cause for anxiety.
Are you drunk already? I saw your conversation with _Soldier on eu1 yesterday, you were talking about how you  will drink some wine or vodka today( dont remember exactly).
All Lenins must fall. If someone in ukraine doesnt support this, he isnt ukrainian in his heart. It means he supports Golodomor, totalitarianism, actions by which millions of ukrainians were murdered or sent to Siberia where they died because of hard work. And if you leave in russia you dont understand what is going on in ukraine, and dont understand how brainwashed you are
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 25, 2014, 02:03:17 pm
How dare you contradict Ivanich, to the goulag with you.


Lenin isnt only symbol of bad things for Russian people and other close people. He died a bit early to be accused of what you say too. What you say should be directed toward Stalin statue, if any remain in Ukraine that is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 02:06:19 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 25, 2014, 01:41:03 pm
What would you call it then? It is not as powerful as USSR was, but it's still one of the greater powers around.

Well, no. It really isn't. At the size of a country, yes. But not as the size of a continent. Russia is a regional superpower with respect to its small asian neighbours, mostly those around the Caspian Sea. But compared to the rest of the world ? Hardly.

What really makes Russia a world stage superpower isn't really the military. It's the nuclear weapons and the natural resources.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on February 25, 2014, 02:16:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on February 25, 2014, 02:03:17 pm
How dare you contradict Ivanich, to the goulag with you.


Lenin isnt only symbol of bad things for Russian people and other close people. He died a bit early to be accused of what you say too. What you say should be directed toward Stalin statue, if any remain in Ukraine that is.
I can contradict him if he tells lies.
But all the shit begun from the Stalin ( Communism).  During the war against UNR ( Ukrainians Peoples Republik ) in 1917 Lenin was alive and bolsheviks did many bad things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 25, 2014, 02:18:14 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 02:06:19 pm
Well, no. It really isn't. At the size of a country, yes. But not as the size of a continent. Russia is a regional superpower with respect to its small asian neighbours, mostly those around the Caspian Sea. But compared to the rest of the world ? Hardly.

What really makes Russia a world stage superpower isn't really the military. It's the nuclear weapons and the natural resources.
Well? :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on February 25, 2014, 02:33:12 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on February 25, 2014, 01:49:45 pm
All Lenins must fall.
because they're ugly.
We have too many Lenins
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on February 25, 2014, 02:43:47 pm
Quote from: Yarl on February 25, 2014, 02:33:12 pm
because they're ugly.
We have too many Lenins

 :lol:
I live in small city ( 35 000 people ) in the centre of Ukraine, and even here we have 4 Lenins. But 3 of them fell 2 days ago
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 25, 2014, 02:53:02 pm
Unbelievable, and funny as hell. Video showing the home of former Ukranian State Prosecutor. Mind you, this is State Prosecutor, not a president, and not even a general.

http://www.unian.net/politics/888795-imenie-pshonki-sverkaet-strazami-i-zolotom-a-v-kabinete-lejat-moschi-svyatyih.html

Really funny stuff starts at 2:40.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 25, 2014, 03:22:58 pm
I think I stopped not believing the corruption accusations  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on February 25, 2014, 03:42:32 pm
Janukovichs residence from the drone
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 04:02:02 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 25, 2014, 02:18:14 pm
Well? :?

Going back to what Tibe said, my comment makes sense because if I get it correctly he was basically saying Russia is too powerful, when it really isn't, not against "world police" anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 25, 2014, 04:09:29 pm
Quote from: Corwin on February 25, 2014, 02:53:02 pm
Unbelievable, and funny as hell. Video showing the home of former Ukranian State Prosecutor. Mind you, this is State Prosecutor, not a president, and not even a general.

http://www.unian.net/politics/888795-imenie-pshonki-sverkaet-strazami-i-zolotom-a-v-kabinete-lejat-moschi-svyatyih.html

Really funny stuff starts at 2:40.
:lol: at that Caesar painting!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 25, 2014, 04:20:39 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 04:02:02 pm
Going back to what Tibe said, my comment makes sense because if I get it correctly he was basically saying Russia is too powerful, when it really isn't, not against "world police" anyway.
I didnt state it was too powerful. Nah, Russia is relatively weak. I just stated that it is a superpower. And it is. Either by nukes or whatever. Definately Russia would be heavly outgunned when they would go up against the West. But the manpower and the nukes they posess is sufficent enough to create a good number of damage and casualties. Which obliviously noone wants. In this case they would get their way. No country is going to risk that for Ukraine. Even if they are bluffing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 04:29:15 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 25, 2014, 04:20:39 pm
I didnt state it was too powerful. Nah, Russia is relatively weak. I just stated that it is a superpower. And it is. Either by nukes or whatever. Definately Russia would be heavly outgunned when they would go up against the West. But the manpower and the nukes they posess is sufficent enough to create a good number of damage and casualties. Which obliviously noone wants. In this case they would get their way.

Ever since the end of WW2, wars have been replaced by a game of chicken due to nuclear weapons, and military power matters less than it did before. I think the reason the West would not intervene (or just help covertly) in Ukraine if Russia did start something is because the West doesn't care that much about Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 25, 2014, 04:33:40 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 25, 2014, 04:29:15 pm
Ever since the end of WW2, wars have been replaced by a game of chicken due to nuclear weapons, and military power matters less than it did before. I think the reason the West would not intervene (or just help covertly) in Ukraine if Russia did start something is because the West doesn't care that much about Ukraine.

Well. The thing is that the west is obligated to interfere if Ukraine has military problems as it was one of the main reasons Ukraine got itself denuclearised.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 25, 2014, 04:49:26 pm
Dave what you think about Klitchko?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 25, 2014, 04:53:06 pm
Poor Lenin  :lol:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 25, 2014, 04:53:35 pm
about time..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 25, 2014, 04:55:49 pm
Quote from: Thomek on February 25, 2014, 04:49:26 pm
Dave what you think about Klitchko?

Good boxer, bad politician with bad team.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on February 25, 2014, 04:59:45 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 25, 2014, 04:53:06 pm
Poor Lenin  :lol:
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why the fuck would they even have any monuments of that old dick left? maybe they have stalin monuments as well?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 25, 2014, 06:38:37 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 25, 2014, 10:33:33 am
Basically you're following the path of Olwen. People first thought that he was a fat troll finding deep sense in his words and then realized that it was senseless bullshit mostly and he is simply a weird guy if not retard. Just curious what you were doing during military service because I have 2 options: 1st is most likely you're simply lying, 2nd is that you're a victim of military hazing.

Back to the topic. The President election campaign just started today and will last till 30 of March.
No, you're lying about your military service. And you were gangraped! And hazed. And then you were... uh..... lying. In that order. This is amazing, making retarded accusations! What fun!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on February 25, 2014, 07:00:31 pm
Quote from: Latvian on February 25, 2014, 04:59:45 pm
why the fuck would they even have any monuments of that old dick left? maybe they have stalin monuments as well?
relevant:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leesin on February 25, 2014, 08:28:32 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 25, 2014, 06:38:37 pm
No, you're lying about your military service. And you were gangraped! And hazed. And then you were... uh..... lying. In that order. This is amazing, making retarded accusations! What fun!

I'm sure Dave has lied about far worst things too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Berserkadin on February 25, 2014, 09:58:41 pm
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I've just spotted DaveUKR in a picture putting up barricades for the rioters.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 26, 2014, 12:01:39 am
Quote from: Berserkadin on February 25, 2014, 09:58:41 pm
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I've just spotted DaveUKR in a picture putting up barricades for the rioters.

So relevant it hurts

Quote from: DaveUKR on February 25, 2014, 04:33:40 pm
Well. The thing is that the west is obligated to interfere if Ukraine has military problems as it was one of the main reasons Ukraine got itself denuclearised.

Obligated by what ?

(I don't want to sound angry, I'm just asking the question)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 26, 2014, 01:06:54 am
Ukraine is not in NATO, therefore there is no obligation even in theory and certainly there won't be any help in practice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:29:35 am
That would end the crisis in Ukraine, need a strong authority. But after the elections will again Maidan. Probably the best is to create a new Federal state. Several autonomies in the «Federation of Ukraine». Autonomous republics (States, enclaves, or earth) will have its own Constitution, its own government, its own laws, its police, and even his army. Then it will be possible to end the unrest. Each part of the people establish order in their country, according to its own rules. The main governing body of the Federal Ukraine will Federation Council. Decisions will be taken at the level of heads of autonomies. By means of meetings and agreements. This new structure will emerge from the crisis quickly and without blood, without war. People will live again without worries. Everyone will get what it wants. Federation of Ukraine will accept the EU as a full partner (Ukraine's economy is stronger than many EU countries. Only iniquities until much.). For Ukrainians will be possible to travel to Europe without visas. Under the current structure of Ukraine's EU accession will be very long…
This may seem absurd, but the other way, I do not see. Ukraine needs the money. A lot of money. Or will a new real Holodomor. But who will give a lot of money the country in which the mess? The EU? But Germany finances today many parasites. The people of Russia did not support such a decision Putin (too much dirt and kakashek threw Ukrainians in our direction). There are, of course, another option. This is the USA. The US loves when other mess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 26, 2014, 04:53:19 am
The urge to believe in our own worldview is our most powerful intellectual imperative, the mind's equivalent of feeding, fighting, and fornicating. People will eagerly twist facts into wholly unrecognizable shapes to fit them into existing suppositions. They'll ignore the obvious, select the irrelevant, and spin it all into a tapestry of self-deception, solely to justify an idea, no matter how impoverished or self-destructive. Food for thought, Dave, food for thought.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on February 26, 2014, 05:33:00 am
America must liberate them.

We have to free everybody god dammit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 26, 2014, 09:17:12 am
Quote from: Kafein on February 26, 2014, 12:01:39 am
Obligated by what ?

(I don't want to sound angry, I'm just asking the question)

Obligated by the "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" since 1994. Just to make it short: After the dissolution of USSR Ukraine had the 3rd nuclear potential in the world (after Russia and USA, having more nuclear weapons than UK, China and France altogether). The world was concerned with such power that's why this document was signed: Ukraine had to denuclearise themselves in trade of security guarantees (in case of wars, military conflicts in the territory of Ukraine etc.). Initially 3 countries signed it (USA, UK and Russia, I'll post a short summarize from Wiki):
Quote
Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council.

Later China and France gave same guarantees.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 26, 2014, 09:36:42 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 26, 2014, 09:17:12 am
Obligated by the "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" since 1994. Just to make it short: After the dissolution of USSR Ukraine had the 3rd nuclear potential in the world (after Russia and USA, having more nuclear weapons than UK, China and France altogether). The world was concerned with such power that's why this document was signed: Ukraine had to denuclearise themselves in trade of security guarantees (in case of wars, military conflicts in the territory of Ukraine etc.). Initially 3 countries signed it (USA, UK and Russia, I'll post a short summarize from Wiki): 
Later China and France gave same guarantees.

Yes, but this does not provide guarantees in case of "civil war", where one side would be heavily armed and supported by Russkies.

Also, if the Russia, at any point, decides to militarily intervene, how are they going to stop it? It would not be the first, nor the last time in history that the West backs out of such a deal. Especially since fullfiling of this deal may mean end of mankind. It would only be a technical issue to find an excuse for not doing anything.

The point is, no matter what kind of guarantees they have given, they DON'T apply to Russia, because war with Russia is not an option.

Just look at this sentence again and tell me this was respected in case of Ukraine:

"to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 09:42:39 am
Poland, Romania and the Baltic countries did not give any obligations. As obligations of Belarus and Kazakhstan. :twisted:
There are also China and Moldova. Under the banners of any country enter the army is a purely technical matter. "Guarantee"... How much we promise to women... Just what would she undressed and moved her legs.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on February 26, 2014, 09:51:45 am
Quote from: Corwin on February 26, 2014, 09:36:42 am
Yes, but this does not provide guarantees in case of "civil war", where one side would be heavily armed and supported by Russkies.

Also, if the Russia, at any point, decides to militarily intervene, how are they going to stop it? It would not be the first, nor the last time in history that the West backs out of such a deal. Especially since fullfiling of this deal may mean end of mankind. It would only be a technical issue to find an excuse for not doing anything.

The point is, no matter what kind of guarantees they have given, they DON'T apply to Russia, because war with Russia is not an option.

Just look at this sentence again and tell me this was respected in case of Ukraine:

"to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion"


You give too much credit to Russia, just look back at the Cold War, neither the West or East want Mutually assured destruction. The world is too secure these days for any war of such magnitude to ever happen again, Russia would very much find itself alone if it went to war over Ukraine. Just look to recent examples, Syria, Russia would have been in their like a shot if their was no backlash from the international community, Russia is very much concerned about its international image at the moment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on February 26, 2014, 09:56:30 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:29:35 am
That would end the crisis in Ukraine, need a strong authority. But after the elections will again Maidan. Probably the best is to create a new Federal state. Several autonomies in the «Federation of Ukraine». Autonomous republics (States, enclaves, or earth) will have its own Constitution, its own government, its own laws, its police, and even his army. Then it will be possible to end the unrest. Each part of the people establish order in their country, according to its own rules. The main governing body of the Federal Ukraine will Federation Council. Decisions will be taken at the level of heads of autonomies. By means of meetings and agreements. This new structure will emerge from the crisis quickly and without blood, without war. People will live again without worries. Everyone will get what it wants. Federation of Ukraine will accept the EU as a full partner (Ukraine's economy is stronger than many EU countries. Only iniquities until much.). For Ukrainians will be possible to travel to Europe without visas. Under the current structure of Ukraine's EU accession will be very long…
This may seem absurd, but the other way, I do not see. Ukraine needs the money. A lot of money. Or will a new real Holodomor. But who will give a lot of money the country in which the mess? The EU? But Germany finances today many parasites. The people of Russia did not support such a decision Putin (too much dirt and kakashek threw Ukrainians in our direction). There are, of course, another option. This is the USA. The US loves when other mess.

Bad idea, federation of Ukraine will weaken the state only. And it will be benefiacial for Russia or US etc...In eastern regions of Ukraine live around 35-40% of ethnic russians  ( They were brought here, during repressions when ukrainians mostly from eastern regions were sent to Siberia or killed ) many of them have russian passports already, they can easily sell houses and go to russia where they can buy better house and find better job. Russia give passports there cuz wants to have measures of influence on Ukraine and in which case bring their army here to "defend" their people. In this case our country needs to support people ( by giving them money or something ) who wants to go to russia.
About holodomor, there will not be holodomor at all, Ukraine has the richest land in Europe. Holodomor 32-33 was made intentionally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on February 26, 2014, 10:02:20 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 09:42:39 am
Poland, Romania and the Baltic countries did not give any obligations. As obligations of Belarus and Kazakhstan. :twisted:

To bad that Belarus in the hands of Lukashenko. People of Ukraine and Belarus which established Kievan Rus state now separated   :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 26, 2014, 10:09:41 am
Quote from: Corwin on February 26, 2014, 09:36:42 am
Yes, but this does not provide guarantees in case of "civil war", where one side would be heavily armed and supported by Russkies.

Also, if the Russia, at any point, decides to militarily intervene, how are they going to stop it? It would not be the first, nor the last time in history that the West backs out of such a deal. Especially since fullfiling of this deal may mean end of mankind. It would only be a technical issue to find an excuse for not doing anything.

The point is, no matter what kind of guarantees they have given, they DON'T apply to Russia, because war with Russia is not an option.

Just look at this sentence again and tell me this was respected in case of Ukraine:

"to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion"

None of the countries you would like to mention had such memorandum. Also believe it or not but the West helped Ukraine in such situations multiple times, if not that Russia would have much bigger influence on Ukraine. It's obvious that EU and USA only look for their own interests in such help but still it's helpful for Ukraine. Putin is trying his best now to exaggerate the situation to make a civil war in Crimea. The fight for the rest of Ukraine is lost, even former President team is looking forward to become friends with anti-President forces because they understand that they will lose everything if they don't become friends now. It's a little bit different with Crimea because they only have one way to maintain power - become a part of Russia. In the other way they will get into a prison for separatism.

Also, you're very overestimating power of Russian military. You never faced it yourself, words "modern", "professional" and "reliable" are the last words I would use to describe it. Ukrainian military is not any better though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 26, 2014, 10:14:36 am
Hahaha, really, Dave? You say the West is "obligated" to interfere if Ukraine has military problems... not. At all. Can you read? If so, I recommend reading the thing you posted:

"Russia, the UK and the USA undertake to respect Ukraine's borders in accordance with the principles of the 1975 CSCE Final Act, to abstain from the use or threat of force against Ukraine, to support Ukraine where an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion, and to bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council."

First off, we have "undertake to respect Ukraine's borders" -- very vague, means nothing. They suggest that they will strongly consider respecting Ukraine's borders. And they also kind-of-promise not to use or threaten with force against Ukraine (too bad that Russia wouldn't give a fuck and it's not the West that's a threat to Ukraine) and thirdly, they promise to "support" Ukraine in case an attempt is made to place pressure on it by economic coercion. Support is not defined, and they mention economic coercion, not coercion by military means. And lastly...... they pinky-promise to bring any incident of aggression before the UN Security Council (uproarious laughter).

Tl;dr: You have no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on February 26, 2014, 10:16:23 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 09:42:39 am
"Guarantee"... How much we promise to women... Just what would she undressed and moved her legs.  :lol:

 :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 10:19:41 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 26, 2014, 10:09:41 am
you're very overestimating power of Russian military
Dave, you say quotations from the speeches of A.Gitler and Napoleon...  :shock: Read other authors. And do not recommend you test your theory in practice. Especially in winter time.  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 26, 2014, 10:25:03 am
He is right about Russian military being a paper tiger. They have relatively few decent troops. Their military is corrupt and most of the conscripts receive shitty training, if it can even be called military training. And even their best troops have some really awful things they train; just look at any videos of Spetsnaz or their equivalent of SWAT, the way they train is definitely not the same as the way modern Western military trains. And it shows in their failed operations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 26, 2014, 10:32:49 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 10:19:41 am
Dave, you say quotations from the speeches of einstein and Napoleon...  :shock: Read other authors. And do not recommend you test your theory in practice. Especially in winter time.  :wink:

Here comes chauvinism again. I don't say quotes of Hitlеr or Napoleon, you just have to look at military bases of Russia and meet Russian soldiers to obtain the same thought. With the vast majority of people disliking their government because of poverty and corruption, no national idea (Moscow and St. Petersburg are fulfilled by illegal Muslims as a working power), with majority of youth evading obligatory military service by any means and military service being a kind of survival simulator for women (cleaning rooms, ironing uniform, painting buildings and shooting only like 30-60 rounds during 1 year of service). I agree that Russia has perfect special forces but you don't fight wars with special forces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 10:35:50 am
Xant, Perhaps it is time to tell everyone how and when did the Great Finland? Why does it have such boundaries? Tell us, please, master of anatomy tigers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 26, 2014, 10:52:18 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 10:35:50 am
Xant, Perhaps it is time to tell everyone how and when did the Great Finland? Why does it have such boundaries? Tell us, please, master of anatomy tigers.

You must be the only person ever to actually suggest Finland did badly in those wars.

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So yeah, indeed, paper tiger - as it has always been.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 26, 2014, 12:31:28 pm
1)Finland raped Russia back there. The main reason why they lost because they run out of ammo to shoot red comrades. no fleet, no aircraft, no tanks, only will & winter.
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 10:19:41 am
Dave, you say quotations from the speeches of A.Gitler and Napoleon...  :shock: Read other authors. And do not recommend you test your theory in practice. Especially in winter time.  :wink:
Yep, scary Russian Winter. Was really bad for Napoleon & Knitler. But Finnish one was scarier  :rolleyes:

2)Of coarse our army is far bigger & better equipped than Ukrainian one(although they both trained like shit). But Russia will never attack Ukraine directly if there would be possibility of UN or NATO intervention. Sure, Putin is bad guy, but not a retard to start WW3.

& funny picture at the end:
(click to show/hide)


Also, there is no Berkut anymore. Disbanded tonight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on February 26, 2014, 12:43:03 pm
Segd, what do you think about situation in Crimea ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 26, 2014, 01:05:59 pm
Economically & Politically it is better to stay with Ukraine rather then going rogue & joining Russia. Separation will hit hard on their infrastructure. Especially if rest of Ukraine will blockade their borders. As far as I know the livesupport of the island(trade, food, etc...they even don't have their fresh water supplies, sea is everywhere) is going from Ukrainian Kherson, not from Russia.

& ppl there(Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars) also have different opinions about their future. Maybe it would be better if they'll have a referendum to decide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 26, 2014, 01:22:22 pm
Also, the grass is always greener on the other side. Right now they(Crimean) can freely protest against Ukraine while protesters in Russia got raped again few days ago while they were peacefully(last molotov in Moscow was probably thrown in 1917 if they were invented back there :) ) protesting against jailing of anti-putin activists.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/24/us-russia-trial-idUSBREA1N08420140224
200ppl + Navalny & Pussy Riot got arrested.
So it probably won't be a fairytale if Crimea will became part of Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
Xant, Here is the history of your country. A lot of instructive.
Fought long fought Russia and Sweden . In 1323 is Schliesselburg peace Treaty, which stipulates that the Western and southern part of Finland, departs the control of Sweden and East Finland - Russia. Later to the 18th century Sweden loses in the war with Russia. In 1809 the whole territory of today's Finland is under the control of Russia. The people of Finland within the Russian Empire. They first receives the status of autonomy. A new state - the Grand Duchy of Finland. The country now has its own government - the Senate. Finland had its own currency, and formed a separate Finnish troops!
After the revolution in Russia there is a dissolution of the Russian Empire. In December 1917, Finland declared independence. Then between Finland and the USSR there were four wars. Twice attacked the troops Finland Russia between 1918 to 1922. Were busy Pe4enga region (Petsamo) and part peninsulas Average and Rybachiy. This Victory Finland.
From 1939 to 1940. Russia invaded Finland. The red Army wanted to keep in the period from two weeks to a month. The Finnish command, hoped that the army will be able to independently keep the opponent at least six months. Both plans have collapsed. The Soviet Union had underestimated the strength of Finland, Finland has made too big bet on the assistance of foreign powers, and on the reliability of their fortifications.
Goebbels and A.Gitler then, wrote: "the Russian army is little purpose. Poorly is guided by and, even worse, armed..." "...the catastrophic state of the Russian army. She ain't hardly able to fights... It is possible that the average level of intelligence of the Russian does not allow them to produce modern weapons." "In Finland, the Russians are not promoted. It seems that in fact the Red army is little purpose". «More of Russians still can't get... For us it was very good». "Moscow is very weak militarily..." (Dave, don't like it?)
However, When Stalin offered Finam end the war, they quickly agreed. And ceded to the Soviet Union strategically important areas. Helsinki gave up to Moscow Karelian isthmus with the city of Viipuri, North-Eastern shore of lake Ladoga, the port of Hanko and Rybachiy Peninsula. Much more than the demanded Moscow before the war. Commander in chief of the Finnish army of Marshal Mannerheim then said: "the Russian soldiers are learning fast, all quick to grasp operate without delay, easy to follow a discipline, differ courage and sacrifice and ready to fight to the last round, despite the hopelessness of the situation."
In 1941, in Alliance with Germany, the Finnish troops attack the Soviet Union. Including in 1941-1944 ensure the blockade of Leningrad from the North. Finnish President ryti then said: «...Leningrad must eliminate ...»
Finland surrendered in September 1944. German troops, in large forces stationed in the North of Finland, have not wished to leave the country. And Finnish army already in conjunction with the red Army led against them fighting (Lapland war).
US congressmen said at the time:«Despite significant losses inflicted by the war, Finland was able to maintain its independence. However, whether the USSR vitally interested in it, there is no doubt that the Finnish independence, would be destroyed. Finland withdrew from the war with the understanding of this fact and spirit to create the new and constructive relationship with the Soviet Union». The territory of Finland is now less than before 1941., however, the independence of Finns still left.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:41:49 pm
Sorry, forgot to say. In 1945, all who served in the third and sixth infantry battalion of the army of Finland, all caught. Put in train. And sent to Russia, to clean the snow. :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on February 26, 2014, 02:44:54 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
(click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on February 26, 2014, 03:01:04 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:41:49 pm
Sorry, forgot to say. In 1945, all who served in the third and sixth infantry battalion of the army of Finland, all caught. Put in train. And sent to Russia, to clean the snow. :cry:
That proves what a cruel man Stalin was. Cleaning the snow in Siberia!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 03:07:09 pm
Voluntarily issued government of Finland. However, because of this, in Finland today no neo-fascists. No parades of former SS men. It's very calm, and for a long time I hope people of peace. Well there.
Only Xant...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _schizo321437 on February 26, 2014, 03:22:24 pm
black must be life
blond must be death
red must be dungeon

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 26, 2014, 03:36:27 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
(Dave, don't like it?)

What are you trying to say? What you say was in the past and I'm speaking about the current Russian army. Do you consider Mongolia as a super threatening country these days?
Whatever you said in the previous post (I gave it a quick look, you better also post original Russian text in spoiler so it's easier for me at least to understand) described the history of other governments. Russian Empire =/= Russian Federation, USSR =/= Russian Federation, Rus =/= Russian Federation. Russian Federation starts its history from 1991 and the only more or less valuable military conflict was a Chechen War that was in my opinion a complete fail. Chechen Wars (officially divided into 2 wars) showed the world what Russian army is capable of. If Russia is so democratic - why not giving Chechnya the independence from Russia? A completely different country with completely different culture. Yet instead you chose to fight and bury thousands of lives both Chechen and Russian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on February 26, 2014, 03:53:20 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 26, 2014, 12:31:28 pm
2)Of course our army is far bigger & better equipped than Ukrainian one(although they both trained like shit). But Russia will never attack Ukraine directly if there would be possibility of UN or NATO intervention. Sure, Putin is bad guy, but not a retard to start WW3.
Whoops. Looks like I was wrong about putin  :?
Last night footage, Russian federal road M-2 "Krim" Moscow-Crimea  :rolleyes:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on February 26, 2014, 05:02:43 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 26, 2014, 03:53:20 pm
Whoops. Looks like I was wrong about putin  :?
Last night footage, Russian federal road M-2 "Krim" Moscow-Crimea  :rolleyes:
(click to show/hide)
dont worry ;) russia is about 20 years behind world in military tech. New russian low visibility submarines take tests and swedes already can see them :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 26, 2014, 05:35:42 pm
Quote from: Segd on February 26, 2014, 03:53:20 pm
Whoops. Looks like I was wrong about putin  :?
Last night footage, Russian federal road M-2 "Krim" Moscow-Crimea  :rolleyes:
(click to show/hide)

It's a defensive anti-air system, kinda outdated but still dangerous. Anyway it's not a weapon of attack, more like bluffing to escalate the provocation in the region.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 26, 2014, 06:50:49 pm
Anti-air can definitely attack, also some S-300 launcher versions are far from outdated and can strike pretty far. If anyone want to send aircraft in Crimea they best be authorized by Russia now  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smithy on February 26, 2014, 07:09:55 pm
This may have already been posted but I can't believe this was the motto of Berkut.

Безпека народу — найвищий Закон

The safety of the people is the highest law

According to Wiki anyways.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Wiltzu on February 26, 2014, 07:41:40 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
Then between Finland and the USSR there were four wars.

Not really.
In Finland's civil war the USSR supported the communists and had volunteers among them.
The events you are referring with "blablabla Finnish Troops attacked the awesome mother soviet russia union 1918 to 1922" are better known as "Heimosodat". There were 6 of these. There were only volunteers in the "Finnish Troops". The army of Finland, or even Finland itself wasn't in it (officially, and well not really even unofficially).
The actual wars between Finland and USSR were Talvisota 1939-1940 and Jatkosota 1941-1944 (Winter War, Continuation War).
Lapin sota (Lapland's war) had started because in the peace treaty (Moskovan välirauha, Moscow Armistice) it was stated that chocolate chip cookie Germany's troops had to be driven out from Finland. USSR insisted specifically that the chocolate chip cookies had to be driven out by force. There were no USSR troops involved in this "war".

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
From 1939 to 1940. Russia invaded Finland.


No it didn't.



Few major reasons (among the fact that Russian troops simply sucked) why Finland kicked USSR's ass in Winter War
-Stalin had killed significant amount of Russian military officers.
-Knowledge given to the armed forces about Finland, both its army(+people) and terrain(=no proper winter clothing) was, well bullshit. General view for the Russian troops was that they were going to "liberate" Finland's people from it's evil fascist government.
I could keep going with this, but tbh I don't think you'd believe. You probably even claim that Finland's troops fired the "Mainilan laukaukset" ("Shelling of Mainila").

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
However, When Stalin offered Finam end the war, they quickly agreed. And ceded to the Soviet Union strategically important areas. Helsinki gave up to Moscow Karelian isthmus with the city of Viipuri, North-Eastern shore of lake Ladoga, the port of Hanko and Rybachiy Peninsula. Much more than the demanded Moscow before the war.


Significant part of Finland's people were against the truce as Finland's army had put up so well against USSR's. The truce was accepted not only because of the fact that no matter how badly USSR's military sucked, they had shit load of it (Moscow's population = Finland's population (in 1939), nowadays Moscow's population = twice Finland's population) but also because chocolate chip cookie Germany hinted to accept it.
And well surprise surprise 25th of June 1941 just 3 days after chocolate chip cookie Germany's attack (Operation Barbarossa) on USSR Finland declared war on USSR.


I get the view from your text that we shouldn't have engaged in Winter War, but rather give the territories USSR demanded.
We never ever should've (as we didn't) accept those demands. Why? Well eventually USSR would've demanded the whole country. You don't believe? Well the Winter War was started by USSR and their goal was to invade Finland. Ok maybe not officially invade, but to form a communist government which, surprise surprise would've done everything what Moscow had told it to do.
Finland was never part of USSR, not even once during it's existence. Not many neighboring countries can say that (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus and so on). Significant amount of the population in those countries can speak nowadays Russia and are (more or less) under the influence of Russia. In Finland, well nearly no one can speak Russian, unless in one's family they speak Russian or one has studied Russian.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 26, 2014, 07:58:57 pm
Afaik the reason for Finland's troops being so successful had a lot to do with their tactics being used. Including a way better knowledge about terrain and weather conditions. I believe they used a lot of surprise and guerilla tactics to even out the huge difference in manpower, especially in areas with deep snow and/or terrain with dense woods.

Those tactics even have their own name, don't they? I don't recall it but I think there was a special name for it.


Anyway, back to topic: Ukraine.

I've read in the news that Russia is practising high alert mobilization stuff right now. Well, they call it a practice but pretty much everyone looks at it like a sign of "seriouz buzzness", especially considering the moment they choose to do it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Havoco on February 26, 2014, 08:07:43 pm
It would be interesting if this panned out like Syria.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Wiltzu on February 26, 2014, 08:18:50 pm
Molly, "Motti -taktiikka".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on February 26, 2014, 08:47:22 pm
Quote from: Havoco on February 26, 2014, 08:07:43 pm
It would be interesting if this panned out like Syria.
But there are no jihadis to be supported by western countries :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Havoco on February 26, 2014, 08:50:48 pm
Quote from: Boerenlater on February 26, 2014, 08:47:22 pm
But there are no jihadis to be supported by western countries :rolleyes:
Not that part, the Obama vs Putin part
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 27, 2014, 01:09:34 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on February 26, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
Xant, Here is the history of your country. A lot of instructive.
Fought long fought Russia and Sweden . In 1323 is Schliesselburg peace Treaty, which stipulates that the Western and southern part of Finland, departs the control of Sweden and East Finland - Russia. Later to the 18th century Sweden loses in the war with Russia. In 1809 the whole territory of today's Finland is under the control of Russia. The people of Finland within the Russian Empire. They first receives the status of autonomy. A new state - the Grand Duchy of Finland. The country now has its own government - the Senate. Finland had its own currency, and formed a separate Finnish troops!
After the revolution in Russia there is a dissolution of the Russian Empire. In December 1917, Finland declared independence. Then between Finland and the USSR there were four wars. Twice attacked the troops Finland Russia between 1918 to 1922. Were busy Pe4enga region (Petsamo) and part peninsulas Average and Rybachiy. This Victory Finland.
From 1939 to 1940. Russia invaded Finland. The red Army wanted to keep in the period from two weeks to a month. The Finnish command, hoped that the army will be able to independently keep the opponent at least six months. Both plans have collapsed. The Soviet Union had underestimated the strength of Finland, Finland has made too big bet on the assistance of foreign powers, and on the reliability of their fortifications.
Goebbels and A.Gitler then, wrote: "the Russian army is little purpose. Poorly is guided by and, even worse, armed..." "...the catastrophic state of the Russian army. She ain't hardly able to fights... It is possible that the average level of intelligence of the Russian does not allow them to produce modern weapons." "In Finland, the Russians are not promoted. It seems that in fact the Red army is little purpose". «More of Russians still can't get... For us it was very good». "Moscow is very weak militarily..." (Dave, don't like it?)
However, When Stalin offered Finam end the war, they quickly agreed. And ceded to the Soviet Union strategically important areas. Helsinki gave up to Moscow Karelian isthmus with the city of Viipuri, North-Eastern shore of lake Ladoga, the port of Hanko and Rybachiy Peninsula. Much more than the demanded Moscow before the war. Commander in chief of the Finnish army of Marshal Mannerheim then said: "the Russian soldiers are learning fast, all quick to grasp operate without delay, easy to follow a discipline, differ courage and sacrifice and ready to fight to the last round, despite the hopelessness of the situation."
In 1941, in Alliance with Germany, the Finnish troops attack the Soviet Union. Including in 1941-1944 ensure the blockade of Leningrad from the North. Finnish President ryti then said: «...Leningrad must eliminate ...»
Finland surrendered in September 1944. German troops, in large forces stationed in the North of Finland, have not wished to leave the country. And Finnish army already in conjunction with the red Army led against them fighting (Lapland war).
US congressmen said at the time:«Despite significant losses inflicted by the war, Finland was able to maintain its independence. However, whether the USSR vitally interested in it, there is no doubt that the Finnish independence, would be destroyed. Finland withdrew from the war with the understanding of this fact and spirit to create the new and constructive relationship with the Soviet Union». The territory of Finland is now less than before 1941., however, the independence of Finns still left.
Yes, I'm sure that's the way they teach it in Russia. Sadly, it's not true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2014, 03:06:00 pm
Russians took an airport in Ukraine. Yesss!

It's going to get interesting soon..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 28, 2014, 03:14:04 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 27, 2014, 01:09:34 am
Yes, I'm sure that's the way they teach it in Russia. Sadly, it's not true.

They really do. Western history may slightly bend the actual facts, but russian historians downright fabricate it out of their asses.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on February 28, 2014, 05:53:47 pm
a few things to keep in mind:

Russian military tech may not be space age, but they do have a lot of it.

Putin is a very smart and ruthless man

Ukrainian situation created by their goverment vs protesters is creating power vacuum

NATO cannot militarily compete with Russia (sure we have better tech, but they have manpower beyond the dreams of NATO)

USA will not go to war over a country most of them cannot find on a map unless the profits are high and the cost low (example: current USA invasions of middleeastern countries are creating massive wealth for their military's civilian supply contracts, since all their gear, food, drinks, medical supplies etc are bought in a monopoly and since they are stealing vast amounts of oil without paying and not actually fighting anyone (a few blokes with soviet era weaponry and smelly beards are NOT a viable fighting force in this age, that time has gone) the overheads are relatively low)

SO what do we have: Russia gets to do w/e the fuck it wants in the Crimea. Since most Ukranians speak russian already Ive been told, you guys should be fine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on February 28, 2014, 05:56:04 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 28, 2014, 03:06:00 pm
Russians took an airport in Ukraine. Yesss!

It's going to get interesting soon..


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26379722 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26379722)

Quote from: BBC
In other developments:
  • The BBC has seen eight trucks with the black plates of the Russian army moving towards Simferopol
  • Unconfirmed reports say eight Russian military helicopters have arrived in Sevastopol
  • Ukraine's parliament calls on the UN Security Council to discuss the unfolding crisis in Crimea

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on February 28, 2014, 05:57:47 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on February 28, 2014, 05:53:47 pm
a few things to keep in mind:

Russian military tech may not be space age, but they do have a lot of it.

Putin is a very smart and ruthless man

Ukrainian situation created by their goverment vs protesters is creating power vacuum

NATO cannot militarily compete with Russia (sure we have better tech, but they have manpower beyond the dreams of NATO)

USA will not go to war over a country most of them cannot find on a map unless the profits are high and the cost low (example: current USA invasions of middleeastern countries are creating massive wealth for their military's civilian supply contracts, since all their gear, food, drinks, medical supplies etc are bought in a monopoly and since they are stealing vast amounts of oil without paying and not actually fighting anyone (a few blokes with soviet era weaponry and smelly beards are NOT a viable fighting force in this age, that time has gone) the overheads are relatively low)

SO what do we have: Russia gets to do w/e the fuck it wants in the Crimea.

Ukraine is a very important gas supplier to the whole of Europe, i wouldn't be so sure Europe/USA would back down so easily, plus i don't think the USA will want too be overpowered by the Ruskies, the whole thinking of America is not in the best interest of others.

i believe its just going to be another Syria
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on February 28, 2014, 06:42:55 pm
Quote from: Strudog on February 28, 2014, 05:57:47 pm
Ukraine is a very important gas supplier to the whole of Europe, i wouldn't be so sure Europe/USA would back down so easily, plus i don't think the USA will want too be overpowered by the Ruskies, the whole thinking of America is not in the best interest of others.

i believe its just going to be another Syria

Syrian problems didn't affect a huge fucking pipe...

Again: NATO can whine and persuade but will not fight Russia on the ground.

USA is not going to bomb Russia (Too many white ppl there) and sure as fuck is not going to be starting of getting involved in a ground war against an actual opponent (shooting up Korean war era Iraqi tanks from jets is not fighting).

As we've seen, Rus have siezed an airfield and are reinforcing it with massed AA, and noone is in a position to challenge them on the ground.

Rus has already won, they probably won when they incited rioting in UKR, who knows how deep the machinations go, since they are led by a man who is literally top dog, he didn't get where he is by garnering voters support, he did it by being ruthless, and smart, and conniving, and is a brilliant man, there is no denying it. Now the Rus will get for free what before they got for pennies, and it has cost them very little.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 28, 2014, 07:28:33 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on February 28, 2014, 05:56:04 pm
(click to show/hide)
I would poop my pants if that happened while looking out of my home window D:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 28, 2014, 07:41:19 pm
Quote from: Molly on February 28, 2014, 07:28:33 pm
I would poop my pants if that happened while looking out of my home window D:

oh well they are not aiming for you if you got the time to look out your home window now, do they  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on February 28, 2014, 07:45:37 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 28, 2014, 03:06:00 pm
Russians took an airport in Ukraine. Yesss!

It's going to get interesting soon..

World war III! Oh yeah, finally! :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lars on February 28, 2014, 07:49:18 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 28, 2014, 07:49:24 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 28, 2014, 07:41:19 pm
oh well they are not aiming for you if you got the time to look out your home window now, do they  :mrgreen:
Well, considering I am German... Russian helicopters that close to my home window, their mere existence in my vicinity, would honestly freak me out. :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on February 28, 2014, 08:03:11 pm
To be sure they would me too. But many of us have done military service and have seen what modern firepower can do: games and video just does not do justice to the awesome fear I feel when I watch this shit...

Noone who is sane wants to see escalation, an actual modern war between modern militaries... is not something that any part of europe would survive without scars. We may all have our own countries and history, but modern weapons dwarf our boundaries, and since we have accurate information about the location of anything these days (not me or you individually, but in this age of satellite photography, unmaned flight and electronic surveillance, there is no way to hide military activity) there would be no misses, these days when you fire a S.A.M or S.S.M ppl are going to die each time, every time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 28, 2014, 08:57:22 pm
When a modern Leopard II drives past you merely 5-10m away... one of the few feelings that could put the fear of God into me :P

Scary shit!

Or this thing:

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That moment when the turret starts moving, scanning the area... holy shit...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Miwiw on February 28, 2014, 09:15:09 pm
You mean it puts Pride into you?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jacko on February 28, 2014, 11:23:05 pm
Damn Dingos are deathtraps *shudder*

Syria we can handle, it's too far away to be of an issue. But Ukraine? That's practically on our doorstep. Will force a reaction and a build up in military spendings (just like the war in Georgia did).

A modern war between relatively equal opponents, will cause a tremendous loss of life, especially among the civilian population. There are no frontlines in a modern war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 01, 2014, 12:37:40 am
I don't think a proper war is likely to break out. Russia will seize the Crimea citing the fact most people there are of Russian decent.
The power grab in Kiev was done in such a way that if Crimeans seize the govt buildings in Crimea and declare they wish to be part of Russia then there is not much the USA can really say.
Its ok for one side to revolt and depose the president but its not ok for another side to revolt and declare themselves to be Russian?


Viktor Yanukovych keeps declaring that it was a coup and that he is still legally the president. That gives Russia all the reason it needs to get involved.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 05:02:12 am
Quote from: BlindGuy on February 28, 2014, 05:53:47 pm
NATO cannot militarily compete with Russia (sure we have better tech, but they have manpower beyond the dreams of NATO)

Hahhaahaha.... ahahahah... hahahaha. Good joke. Russia's military is horribly trained and horribly equipped as a whole. US alone would absolutely crush them, though not without quite a few casualties -- let alone the whole NATO.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on March 01, 2014, 06:02:31 am
Actual modern "wars" between superpowers are fought economically, ideologically, and through proxy and subterfuge. A literal outbreak of war I don't even want to imagine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Ujin on March 01, 2014, 07:16:41 am
Quote from: Molly on February 28, 2014, 07:28:33 pm
I would poop my pants if that happened while looking out of my home window D:
Most probably you'd be cheering if you  were an eastern-Ukrainian.

P.S. promise to myself - not to get into this forum "debate" any further -).
P.P.S. BlindGuy (your nickname, the irony) has got this thing figured out right for the most part
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 01, 2014, 09:09:04 am
Quote
Most probably you'd be cheering if you were an eastern-Ukrainian.
Not sure if it is joke or not, but it is how Russia wants to represent it and it is so wrong..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 01, 2014, 09:34:08 am
Quote from: Osiris on March 01, 2014, 12:37:40 am
I don't think a proper war is likely to break out. Russia will seize the Crimea citing the fact most people there are of Russian decent.
The power grab in Kiev was done in such a way that if Crimeans seize the govt buildings in Crimea and declare they wish to be part of Russia then there is not much the USA can really say.
Its ok for one side to revolt and depose the president but its not ok for another side to revolt and declare themselves to be Russian?

If NATO lets that happen. Then it severely damages its relations in whole Europe. In most countries bordering Russia shitton of people are obliviously russian decent. In basically all of these countries, if fueled with enough propaganda bunch of these people can raise up arms, raise the Russian flags in the bordertowns and beg Kremlin to annex them. This has happened before, this is exactly how my country lost its independence to the Soviets in 1940. All u need is a base inside a country, some rioting locals and the takeover is easy and mostly without violence. Good to see history repeating itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 09:44:02 am
Why would NATO not "let" it happen? Ukraine is not in NATO, NATO has nothing to do with the situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 01, 2014, 09:56:24 am
Remeber that "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" thing Dave mentioned a few pages back. Well Ukraine itself does consider it a fact that the West is obligated to interfere. U can read it however u please and they can back out and say that they dont have the obligation, but that still damages their credibility.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 01, 2014, 10:01:32 am
Curren goverment in Ukraine was recognized by EU countries as legitimate. Yanukovych ran away from Ukraine and now from Russia he is declaring that he is the president, during that conference at Rostov na Donu he was talking so mach bullshit that ukrainians just ROFL. Look at that scum:

Yanukovich lost Ukraine but it seems he wants to get Crimea by help of russian army and become Crimean Khan  :lol:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 10:05:06 am
Quote from: Tibe on March 01, 2014, 09:56:24 am
Remeber that "Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances" thing Dave mentioned a few pages back. Well Ukraine itself does consider it a fact that the West is obligated to interfere. U can read it however u please and they can back out and say that they dont have the obligation, but that still damages their credibility.
It might damage their credibility in Ukraine's eyes. But who actually cares about what Ukraine thinks? They can't even control their own country and Russia will likely claim a big part of it, if not the whole Ukraine.

Everyone else knows that NATO never promised to help Ukraine, so their credibility stays intact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 01, 2014, 10:05:42 am
Quote
Yanukovich lost Ukraine but it seems he wants to get Crimea by help of russian army and become Crimean Khan  :lol:
No he has no hope to get anything, right now he is helping Russia to justify their actions, nothing more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 01, 2014, 10:11:56 am
Quote from: serr on March 01, 2014, 10:05:42 am
No he has no hope to get anything, right now he is helping Russia to justify their actions, nothing more.
it was a joke. Here you are right Serr
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 01, 2014, 10:13:56 am
Quote
Everyone else knows that NATO never promised to help Ukraine, so their credibility stays intact.

While I don't think it can come to NATO vs Russia war, USA, Great Britain and Russia did promise to help Ukraine, everyone knows it and it can seriously damage their credibility. Another thing is that Russia won't go for direct war. More likely they will try to make Crimea declare its independence, provoke civil war and then invade as peacemakers, so NATO would have excuse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 10:17:26 am
USA, Great Britain and Russia =/= NATO, and those countries promised to help Ukraine if they had economic troubles, not in case it was invaded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 10:57:55 am
Quote from: Xant on March 01, 2014, 10:17:26 am
USA, Great Britain and Russia =/= NATO, and those countries promised to help Ukraine if they had economic troubles, not in case it was invaded.

have you read the Budapest Memorandum?

just in case you haven't:


Quote
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

Although it does not say they would go to war if any of these 'commitments' were broken, but who knows what the USA/ UK think, none of us are in No.10 or the White House.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 11:11:54 am
I have read it. What about it? Once again, it does not say that any of those countries would help in the case of an invasion. Russia has not threatened Ukraine with nuclear weapons, or used nuclear weapons against Ukraine. Therefore, that agreement never comes into play.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 11:34:24 am
Quote
to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 11:39:47 am
Do you understand what "respect" means? The assurances say that those countries assure to respect said things, not that they expect anyone else to respect them as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 01:32:07 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 01, 2014, 11:39:47 am
Do you understand what "respect" means? The assurances say that those countries assure to respect said things, not that they expect anyone else to respect them as well.
that they have to 'respect', this can be translated in a number of ways, it depends how you look at it, like all treaties that are signed, there is always a problem with the wording.

i may also bring your attention to this:

Quote
reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 01, 2014, 01:41:35 pm
This text is low-priority when you have Russia rolling.
If every nations had honor and acted on pieces of paper 100% of the time we would have wars at each corners, but afaik diplomacy is only a game of thrones where you base your legitimacy on said papers (fabricated or not) but you deny them when it fits your agenda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 01:47:09 pm
Quote from: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 01:32:07 pm
that they have to 'respect', this can be translated in a number of ways, it depends how you look at it, like all treaties that are signed, there is always a problem with the wording.

i may also bring your attention to this:

No, it cannot be translated in a number of ways. It can only be translated in one way.

The fact is this: nobody is obligated to help Ukraine. Nobody.

Now, Russia has broken their "assurance" in spirit (but they will have some excuse for why they didn't break the letter of it). But nowhere in the assurance is there another assurance that the others will take action against another country breaking their word.

It would be a different situation if the U.S and others had promised to help Ukraine in the event of an invasion. But they did not. Ukraine's SOL.

Quote from: Butan on March 01, 2014, 01:41:35 pm
This text is low-priority when you have Russia rolling.
If every nations had honor and acted on pieces of paper 100% of the time we would have wars at each corners, but afaik diplomacy is only a game of thrones where you base your legitimity on said papers (fabricated or not) but you deny them when it fits your agenda.
Yes, agreements are broken constantly -- the US has started several illegal wars, too, yet the rest of the world hasn't attacked it yet...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 02:01:27 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 01, 2014, 01:47:09 pm
No, it cannot be translated in a number of ways. It can only be translated in one way.

The fact is this: nobody is obligated to help Ukraine. Nobody.

Now, Russia has broken their "assurance" in spirit (but they will have some excuse for why they didn't break the letter of it). But nowhere in the assurance is there another assurance that the others will take action against another country breaking their word.

It would be a different situation if the U.S and others had promised to help Ukraine in the event of an invasion. But they did not. Ukraine's SOL.


i was arguing with your point that the only way America would help Ukraine would be through economic difficulties where it saids directly in the Budapest Memorandum that all parties are obliged (they don't have to if they don't want to) to help Ukraine if its territory or political independence was threatened.

Im not arguing whether the US will go to war over this, because its obvious it will never come to that, i'm just merely pointing out that there are other ways apart from economic security that the US could use as an excuse IF they went to war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 01, 2014, 02:06:08 pm
Quote from: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 02:01:27 pm
Im not arguing whether the US will go to war over this, because its obvious it will never come to that

Are you sure? :) Humans stupidity has no end, so I wouldn't bet any money on it :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 02:08:19 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 01, 2014, 02:06:08 pm
Are you sure? :) Humans stupidity has no end, so I wouldn't bet any money on it :)

Human stupidity didn't take control during the cold war, why should it happen now?

Neither side wants a war, Putin knows this, thus he can push the boundaries and that is exactly what he is doing now, same as the Cold War, each side will push each other to the limit, but MAD takes over in the end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 02:09:23 pm
Quote from: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 02:01:27 pm
i was arguing with your point that the only way America would help Ukraine would be through economic difficulties where it saids directly in the Budapest Memorandum that all parties are obliged (they don't have to if they don't want to) to help Ukraine if its territory or political independence was threatened.

Im not arguing whether the US will go to war over this, because its obvious it will never come to that, i'm just merely pointing out that there are other ways apart from economic security that the US could use as an excuse IF they went to war.
What? I have never said anything even remotely similar to "the only way America would help Ukraine would be through economic difficulties." And none of the parties are to help Ukraine if its territory or political independence are threatened. The assurances never assure that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 01, 2014, 02:17:01 pm
Why would not going to war be smarter than going to war? Notwithstanding our own fear of death and destruction, there is no superior motive to peace than there is to war.

You say that there is a text to protect Ukraine sovereignty and that it SHOULD mean that Europe/USA protect Ukraine against Russia invasion, and now you say that it would be stupid to help them by the only mean possible when people use the sword rather than the pen?


Remind me never to vote for you for presidence of any countries  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 01, 2014, 02:43:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 01, 2014, 02:17:01 pm
Why would not going to war be smarter than going to war? Notwithstanding our own fear of death and destruction, there is no superior motive to peace than there is to war.

You say that there is a text to protect Ukraine sovereignty and that it SHOULD mean that Europe/USA protect Ukraine against Russia invasion, and now you say that it would be stupid to help them by the only mean possible when people use the sword rather than the pen?


Remind me never to vote for you for presidence of any countries  :P



If it was directed at me, i was saying theoretically that military intervention or a war would be possible because Russia, USA and the UK all signed the Hungarian Memorandum , but in my own opinion i do not believe this is likely due to outside factors, such as NATO, UN, MAD, etc.. and as pointed out t is very much a wish washy treaty.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 02:58:43 pm
Budapest Memorandum, once again, does not say anything about military intervention as long as nuclear weapons do not come into play.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 01, 2014, 03:16:13 pm
Anyone have opinions or information on how strong separatist feelings are in Crimea? To me this seems a lot like South Ossetia. Supporting small separatist governements, intervening to preserve "Peace". Just that in this case it seems there is zero need of protection in the first place..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 01, 2014, 03:40:54 pm
Who knows :P Russia probably has more "cause" for military intervention in the Crimea than the USA ever had in the middle east so they don't really have a moral high ground to stand on.

From sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1219043/russia-shows-its-muscle-as-crimea-breaks-away

Quote
Whatever the government in Ukraine says or does, events on the ground suggest that Crimea has already for all intents and purposes broken away; certainly Kiev's orders no longer stretch as far as this region.

Unidentified gunmen have taken over the parliament and the region's main airports in the space of 24 hours.

They heavily suggest that these are in fact Russian military but atm there is no proof

Also from sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1215537/ukraine-protesters-in-control-of-kiev

Quote
Protesters have claimed full control over the city of Kiev after a deal was signed to end a three-month political crisis in Ukraine.
Police have abandoned posts around the capital and protesters seized the presidential office.
Quote
The interior ministry said on Saturday it was in favour of "speedy change", and urged the people to unite to ensure security and the creation of an "independent, democratic and just European country".

But regional legislators in eastern Ukraine have questioned the legitimacy and authority of decisions made by the national parliament.



So pro west side uses weapons and violence to seize control and force the president to flee = Hooray glorious revolution USA, Europe etc claps.
Pro Russian side uses weapons and seizes control of Airports etc and doesn't recognize the new govt = Boo evil Russians how dare they.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tore on March 01, 2014, 03:51:52 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 01, 2014, 04:08:52 pm
Quote from: Osiris on March 01, 2014, 03:40:54 pm
Who knows :P Russia probably has more "cause" for military intervention in the Crimea than the USA ever had in the middle east so they don't really have a moral high ground to stand on.

From sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1219043/russia-shows-its-muscle-as-crimea-breaks-away

They heavily suggest that these are in fact Russian military but atm there is no proof

Also from sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1215537/ukraine-protesters-in-control-of-kiev



So pro west side uses weapons and violence to seize control and force the president to flee = Hooray glorious revolution USA, Europe etc claps.
Pro Russian side uses weapons and seizes control of Airports etc and doesn't recognize the new govt = Boo evil Russians how dare they.

It's not true. Nobody wanted that President, even Crimea. I think it's not even necessary to discuss it, like there is not a single sane man in Ukraine who would support that President. The other question is that not all people are happy with current government either.

There is no Pro-Russian side that used weapons. Pro-Russian side failed to capture the local Parliament being pushed out by people who were against the separation of Ukraine. And after that it was captured by armed Russian soldiers at night while there was nobody to protect it. What do you mean "no proof"? It's so obvious that only a person who is completely incompetent in such questions can say that. Those people with guns are military forces of Russia and it's not even a secret for anyone. Those are Russian military forces who just removed their flags from the uniform. Also some of them were already captured by Ukrainian special forces while Russians were trying to take over the Ukrainian military base. The only reason why the West declines to recognise Russians in them is that they don't want a war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 01, 2014, 04:15:51 pm
Right now russian Council of the Federation discuss if they should attack Ukraine. I never heard so much bullshit at one time in my life  :cry:

For those who understand russian http://live.russia.tv/index/index/channel_id/3
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 01, 2014, 04:17:55 pm
To the simple man
When every wall is hid by many
new posters freshly pasted up,
when ‘to the people’, ‘to the Army’,
in black print stare appeals alarming,
and any dolt, and any pup
will take for gospel each old lie
that one should go and shoot off guns
and murder, poison, rob, at once;
start drumming into all our noggins
the ‘Fatherland’; the mob incite,
bamboozle with bright-coloured slogans,
egg on with ‘Our historic right’,
‘every inch’, ‘glory’, ‘sacred borders’,
with ‘our forebears’, ‘pay the price’,
with ‘heroes’, ‘flag’ and ‘sacrifice’;
when bishop, pastor, rabbi come
to say a blessing on each gun,
for God has told them, that His will
is that for Country – you should kill;
when gutter tabloid screams and rages
in letters huge on its front pages,
and herds of females lose their voice
throwing bouquets at ‘our brave boys’,
– O, my untutored simple friend,
mate from this land, or other land!
Know that the bells for these alarums
kings strike, with girls with ample charms,
Know it’s all hogwash, lies perverted,
And when these call out: ‘Shoulder arms!’
That somewhere from the ground oil spurted,
With dollars soiling the bright colours;
That in their banks there’s something rotten,
They smelled some moneybags, it looks,
Or cooked some scheme, the oily crooks,
For higher import tax for cotton.
Drum on the pavement with your gun!
Ours the blood, the oil is theirs!
And through each capital and town
Scream out, to guard your cash blood-won:
‘Tell us another, noble sirs!’. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 04:36:13 pm
So why is Ukraine not doing anything about "6000 Russian troops" inside its territories? I mean apart from "raising the alertness level" of its military. I wonder that it'd take to get them to do something if an invasion doesn't count as something requiring intervention.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Wiltzu on March 01, 2014, 04:38:10 pm
Putin is looking every excuse to attack Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on March 01, 2014, 04:38:32 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 01, 2014, 04:41:19 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 01, 2014, 04:08:52 pm
Those are Russian military forces who just removed their flags from the uniform. Also some of them were already captured by Ukrainian special forces while Russians were trying to take over the Ukrainian military base.
I think nobody will mind if Ukrainian\UN\US\NATO forces will shoot some of this unknown combatants. Especially after Putin said that there are no Russian military there :)

Btw, what does international legislation say about military forces without identification marks?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 01, 2014, 04:45:18 pm
Quote from: Osiris on March 01, 2014, 03:40:54 pm
Who knows :P Russia probably has more "cause" for military intervention in the Crimea than the USA ever had in the middle east so they don't really have a moral high ground to stand on.
From sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1219043/russia-shows-its-muscle-as-crimea-breaks-away
They heavily suggest that these are in fact Russian military but atm there is no proof
Also from sky news
http://news.sky.com/story/1215537/ukraine-protesters-in-control-of-kiev
So pro west side uses weapons and violence to seize control and force the president to flee = Hooray glorious revolution USA, Europe etc claps.
Pro Russian side uses weapons and seizes control of Airports etc and doesn't recognize the new govt = Boo evil Russians how dare they.

I dont think you really get the full situation Osiris. And tbh its cool. You really get how this works if you are living next to Russia. This is how they annex lands for themselves and how they have done this before.    If they get away with it whats stopping em from taking more pieces from its other neibhours claiming "russian citizens are in danger".  Would you be cool with it? The fact that some dickbags from another country just randomly take some chunks out of yours in a nonviolent manner isnt exactly calming now is it. And we dont even know if the people of Crimea actually want to be part of Russia. Just because there are men with guns everywhere claiming that they definately do and raising russian flags doesnt make it so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 01, 2014, 04:48:51 pm
Quote from: Segd on March 01, 2014, 04:41:19 pm
Btw, what does international legislation say about military forces without identification marks?

I assume it says burn them


By the way

Quote from: Kafein on February 20, 2014, 05:55:36 pm
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 01, 2014, 05:44:17 pm
Tbh I just can't form an opinion on this whole thing. There are so many different reports, interviews and footage - it's impossible for me to filter all through it.

Luckily I am in a situation that I can just sit back, wait and see what happens next. I certainly don't envy anyone living in that "neighbourhood" right now :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 01, 2014, 05:54:20 pm
All of this incredibly reminds of Czechoslovakian crisis.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 01, 2014, 06:40:12 pm
Russian warship was just spotted unannounced 200 miles off the coast of Miami Florida!  this shit is getting deep, all over Ukraine.

just reported on CNN

here is a link for people to read about it.

http://blog.al.com/wire/2014/02/as_ukrainian_situation_heats_u.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jacko on March 01, 2014, 06:51:41 pm
There is nothing legitimate with the Russian military 'intervention'. It's a parliament sanctioned invasion of Ukraine, utterly illegal under any international law.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on March 01, 2014, 07:06:25 pm
i dont get why everyone is so afraid of russia, if they try everything than USA will bomb their obsolete  country to pieces
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jacko on March 01, 2014, 07:09:52 pm
US couldn't give a flying fuck what Russia does in Europe. US can't intervene without causing a much larger problem. This is a 'conflict' between Russia and EU, and US will stay out of it as long as it can.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 01, 2014, 07:10:10 pm
Quote from: Latvian on March 01, 2014, 07:06:25 pm
i dont get why everyone is so afraid of russia

50 years of occupation did its work
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2014, 07:17:28 pm
Quote from: Jacko on March 01, 2014, 06:51:41 pm
There is nothing legitimate with the Russian military 'intervention'. It's a parliament sanctioned invasion of Ukraine, utterly illegal under any international law.
Talking about international laws and "illegal invasions" is more than a little corny. The only law there is when it comes to war is the law of the strongest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 01, 2014, 07:18:32 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 01, 2014, 04:45:18 pm
I dont think you really get the full situation Osiris. And tbh its cool. You really get how this works if you are living next to Russia. This is how they annex lands for themselves and how they have done this before.    If they get away with it whats stopping em from taking more pieces from its other neibhours claiming "russian citizens are in danger".  Would you be cool with it? The fact that some dickbags from another country just randomly take some chunks out of yours in a nonviolent manner isnt exactly calming now is it. And we dont even know if the people of Crimea actually want to be part of Russia. Just because there are men with guns everywhere claiming that they definately do and raising russian flags doesnt make it so.

Implying Europe/USA/Israel/Africa never used bullshit casus belli?

I prefer the russian casus belli of getting all his "people" under the same flag, than USA perma global casus belli against terrorist/undemocratic nations  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jacko on March 01, 2014, 07:51:46 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 01, 2014, 07:17:28 pm
Talking about international laws and "illegal invasions" is more than a little corny. The only law there is when it comes to war is the law of the strongest.

Xant, stop being silly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 01, 2014, 08:13:32 pm
My Uncle who's part of the High ranking military(was) and is a part of the US/RUS national security council thing told me over brunch that US has cut any official contact with RUS and his is the only thing they are doing.(Cold war era stuff right here!)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 01, 2014, 08:29:28 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 01, 2014, 07:10:10 pm
50 years of occupation did its work

You mean close to half the world's supply of nuclear warheads ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 01, 2014, 09:17:19 pm
Really just seems like a poorly disguised invasion to make a land grab. Is Ukraine in anyway responding to the Russian troops, apart from 'pls stop'?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 01, 2014, 09:42:11 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 01, 2014, 09:17:19 pm
Really just seems like a poorly disguised invasion to make a land grab. Is Ukraine in anyway responding to the Russian troops, apart from 'pls stop'?

gootin pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 01, 2014, 09:55:30 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 01, 2014, 09:17:19 pm
Really just seems like a poorly disguised invasion to make a land grab. Is Ukraine in anyway responding to the Russian troops, apart from 'pls stop'?

Today in the evening the head of the Parliament announced the full embattlement (I don't know how to translate properly: a process to get troops being full ready for military actions) of Ukrainian army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 01, 2014, 10:06:30 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 01, 2014, 08:29:28 pm
You mean close to half the world's supply of nuclear warheads ?

..And that, yeah
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 01, 2014, 10:35:47 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 01, 2014, 09:55:30 pm
Today in the evening the head of the Parliament announced the full embattlement (I don't know how to translate properly: a process to get troops being full ready for military actions) of Ukrainian army.
Good, dunno what the hell Russia is thinking but they are crossing some serious lines here. Think they overflexed their muscles this time and I don't think this will fall well in the UN, EU and with NATO at all. Of course it remains to be seen whether any international action will be undertaken with the coercive power contained in Russia's energy exports and their veto in the UN, but it is diplomatic suicide nonetheless and it seems a rather foolish course.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 01, 2014, 10:43:13 pm
If the Russians are going to try to become a super power again, this is what's going to happen:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 01, 2014, 11:23:02 pm
Thus occurred the seizure of the building of the Supreme Council of the Crimea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EuNsKuAcErE
Protection (police) were disarmed and removed from the building. Then the Weapons returned. People "unmarked" took control of the order in several buildings and airports in Crimea. At each site there is about 50 soldiers. They make no representations. They do not communicate with people. They don't even talk on the phone.
It is yet unknown who and where these soldiers. However, on the streets of Crimean cities ceased unrest. Police work. Previously, in the clashes, 3 people were killed (heart attack, gas poisoning, stabbed). The work of the citizens and government soldiers "unmarked", not make obstacles. They do not Express their political views. About the victims there is no evidence and messages. However, these people, their work is clearly a good stabilizing factor for the situation in the Crimea. May be they from Russia. Maybe it's former military from Simferopol. And maybe this is a new, unknown until political force in Ukraine? In any case, if these soldiers were not, it would be worse than now. Good job, guys.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 01, 2014, 11:32:55 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 01, 2014, 10:35:47 pm
Good, dunno what the hell Russia is thinking but they are crossing some serious lines here. Think they overflexed their muscles this time and I don't think this will fall well in the UN, EU and with NATO at all. Of course it remains to be seen whether any international action will be undertaken with the coercive power contained in Russia's energy exports and their veto in the UN, but it is diplomatic suicide nonetheless and it seems a rather foolish course.

maybe but the UN is good for nothing. They couldnt stop the USA doing whatever it wished in the middle east they cant stop Russia either. Nato perhaps will move troops into west Ukraine but im not sure they will engage in the crimea
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on March 01, 2014, 11:39:25 pm
Well the UN is only really as useful as the countries involved. And most nations will be to shit scared of risking a war with Russia to do anything more than wag their finger at them.

Sure Russia may damage it's diplomatic relations with other nations but like Putin gives a fuck  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 01, 2014, 11:42:13 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=287_1393605865
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 01, 2014, 11:42:17 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 01, 2014, 11:23:02 pm
It is yet unknown who and where these soldiers. However, on the streets of Crimean cities ceased unrest. Police work. Previously, in the clashes, 3 people were killed (heart attack, gas poisoning, stabbed). The work of the citizens and government soldiers "unmarked", not make obstacles. They do not Express their political views. About the victims there is no evidence and messages. However, these people, their work is clearly a good stabilizing factor for the situation in the Crimea. May be they from Russia. Maybe it's former military from Simferopol. And maybe this is a new, unknown until political force in Ukraine? In any case, if these soldiers were not, it would be worse than now. Good job, guys.

Definitely unknown. My guess is they're aliens. But yeah, keep invading ukraine. With citizens like ivani there's no wonder that putin can stay in power.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 02, 2014, 12:23:35 am
Quote from: Prpavi on March 01, 2014, 11:42:13 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=287_1393605865
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e65_1393623458

Fixed that for you

I don't have any faith in the UN taking any action as an organization, but I think economic sanctions by the EU are maybe a possibility. It is really an interesting geopolitical situation as Ukraine has been torn inbetween Russia and the EU for a while now. Russia fearing a loss of influence in Ukraine has taken the game to a level at which the EU can't play, namely the military level, so it is really a turning point where the EU can either show that it is capable of hard power or demonstrate to the world that they are just a wimpy trade organization after all. Now of course I am not saying the EU is going to deploy them weirdass EU Battlegroups they have been going on about, but they have the capability to really put some pressure on Russia through economic means. Sure one can say that the EU relies on Russian gas, but perhaps even more so Russia relies on export money to the EU. It's gonna cost them both so it comes down to who has the most resolve, which might mean that Putin is gonna bluff his way through there while the members of the EU dabble and derp.

If the EU doesn't do anything it is gonna come down to NATO and I am afraid nobody is care enough about Ukraine or sovereignty to actually take any steps that are going to impress Putin, military action is just so hugely expensive and the US is probably a little worn out on that front. Also curious to see if China is gonna speak out against this invasion, as they are always opposed to any NATO actions that violate sovereignty, not that it is going to help anything in the shitty Security Council. Apart from a sliver of hope on the EU I am afraid the world map is gonna require some recolouring soon.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on March 02, 2014, 12:29:55 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 12:49:13 am
Are you kidding me? NATO? Wtf? What is NATO going to do? Go into World War 3 because of Crimea? C'mon. Be realistic. World War 3 wouldn't be profitable for anyone, no one would make money of it, and therefore it will not happen. Russian would have lost it, but if only 10% of Russian missiles would hit USA, only cockroaches would survive.

My best guess is that they will shout a lot, 'strongly condemn' and similar bullshit, and that's gonna be it. The only thing I don't know is how ready will Ukranians be to defend Crimea. One thing is certain, if they engage in full scale war with Russkies and lose, beside Crimea they will lose eastern part of the country. And I don't see how they can win, best thing they can hope for is a stalemate. After which there would be some bullshit negotiations, where everyone will agree that they should respect right of Crimeans to self-determination. After which it would also come to the same end - Crimea would separate from Ukraine.

However, if I was Ukrainian, I would also be ready to defend my country.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 02, 2014, 12:51:55 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 12:49:13 am

However, if I was Ukrainian, I would also be ready to defend my country.

I would be ready to flee the country
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 12:59:31 am
You are looking at it from wrong angle. It could be your best chance to get pension (braniteljsku).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 02, 2014, 01:06:33 am
Quote from: Prpavi on March 02, 2014, 12:51:55 am
I would be ready to flee the country

Shamefur dispray Prp`s.

One should be ready to die for his country, there isnt a more glorious death than this one.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 01:08:30 am
Well, if someone attacks Japan, I am sure Prpavi will defend it until death.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 02, 2014, 01:10:57 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 02, 2014, 01:06:33 am
One should be ready to die for his country, there isnt a more glorious death than this one.

Why?

And why is glory important?

Wouldn't you prefer dying after finding a cure for cancer or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 02, 2014, 01:19:22 am
Why?

Because I respect those who gave their lives so I could be free now having a conversation with you guys..

From Leonidas and Hotgates, to the Greek Liberation in 1821 and from that, to WW2..

My ancestors gave their lives for something they believed it was worth fighting AND dying for.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 02, 2014, 01:34:04 am
EDIT Oh nevermind...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dezilagel on March 02, 2014, 01:48:50 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 02, 2014, 01:06:33 am
One should be ready to die for his country, there isnt a more glorious death than this one.

Wait, what?

From the discussion in my sig:

Quote from: Casimir on December 20, 2012, 06:59:28 pm
i lol in your general direction
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 02, 2014, 02:04:33 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 02, 2014, 01:06:33 am
Shamefur dispray Prp`s.

One should be ready to die for his country, there isnt a more glorious death than this one.

I don't do countries and nations, you should know by now
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:56:02 am
Fact is, since Russia invaded without declaration of war and with unmarked soldiers (who still think they are a 3rd party? I think even Ivanich guessed but doesnt tell :wink:), the few Ukrainian soldiers that were in Crimea have probably been very surprised and could have thought that some pro-maidan or anti-maidan are involved and didnt want to outright kill people.

Very nice tactical play, but now I hear from you that Ukraine also began to mobilize his troops? Are they serious about it or just flexing muscles? What is the size of the actual Ukrainian army and level of preparation (I guess there has been a lot of desertion and desorganization with power change and everything) and what is the combined size of all the unmarked soldiers that has entered Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 02, 2014, 03:19:00 am
Quote from: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:56:02 am
What is the size of the actual Ukrainian army


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Miwiw on March 02, 2014, 03:21:46 am
Quote from: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:56:02 am
Very nice tactical play, but now I hear from you that Ukraine also began to mobilize his troops? Are they serious about it or just flexing muscles? What is the size of the actual Ukrainian army and level of preparation (I guess there has been a lot of desertion and desorganization with power change and everything) and what is the combined size of all the unmarked soldiers that has entered Ukraine?

Doubt it matters how many they are, but if a country gets invaded they should at least send everyone to defend. Can't call it a country (or whatever you like) if they are not even trying to defend their land. No matter who attacks.
However the part of the Ukraine that got "attacked" now, is mostly a place where russians already live (or ukrainians that support russia)?

Defend does of course not mean that they should actually start a fight though...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 02, 2014, 06:55:08 am
Quote from: Jacko on March 01, 2014, 07:51:46 pm
Xant, stop being silly.
Maybe you should sue Russia to court for breaking them laws. And then take Russia to prison.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 02, 2014, 08:51:35 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 01, 2014, 11:23:02 pm
Thus occurred the seizure of the building of the Supreme Council of the Crimea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EuNsKuAcErE
Protection (police) were disarmed and removed from the building. Then the Weapons returned. People "unmarked" took control of the order in several buildings and airports in Crimea. At each site there is about 50 soldiers. They make no representations. They do not communicate with people. They don't even talk on the phone.
It is yet unknown who and where these soldiers. However, on the streets of Crimean cities ceased unrest. Police work. Previously, in the clashes, 3 people were killed (heart attack, gas poisoning, stabbed). The work of the citizens and government soldiers "unmarked", not make obstacles. They do not Express their political views. About the victims there is no evidence and messages. However, these people, their work is clearly a good stabilizing factor for the situation in the Crimea. May be they from Russia. Maybe it's former military from Simferopol. And maybe this is a new, unknown until political force in Ukraine? In any case, if these soldiers were not, it would be worse than now. Good job, guys.

This has got to be one of the most brainwashed statements I have read here... Lets apply this piece of "logic" to some part of rUSSIA (darn the grammer mistakes I make these days... :rolleyes:):

Lets say... Chechnya? Part 1. Lets say there appears an unmarked, freedom desiring force, which wished to establish a country independent of some central "democratic" government in mOSCOW, by "all hail right and righteous" pUTIN.
Part 2. They would occupy local municipal buildings, sever comms with external world, run around guns blazing, eventually establish some kind of a government, rule of law, internal command structure. Then they would add markings to their uniforms and call themselfves a free nation, world would recognize them and a new countrie (albeit - maybe a fucked up one) is born. Because people deserve the right to be free and choose... in some referendum. Right...

Part 1 happened in rUSSIA. Part 2 - did not, because unmarked, armed people were NOT considered a stabilizing factor. And they were NOT allowed a referendum. Instead some motherfucker (can you please tell me the name of commander in chief? some former KGB guy I seem to remember?) slaughtered a huge bunch of them and then a whole new generation of desperate suicide terrorists grew up due to that and they are fucking up rUSSIA good in return with every possibility they get. Good stabilization I say.

So tell me Ivani4 "the brainwashed" - WHY THE FUCK SHOULD ANYONE ACCEPT A "STABILIZING ARMED PEOPLE IN THE STREETS" with a fucking rUSSIA behind them + also taking into account FUCKED UP example of Georgia 6 years ago. What the fuck is your nation thinking? I would be ashamed and would be marching in protests in streets of mOSCOW after such shamefur dispray. And instead you will hide in the next bottle of vodka and say "well... I can't do anything. Better keep silent, because they may come and get me...". Sincerely? FUCK YOU and FUCK THIS SHIT.

I just hope, that onche they come for Latvia, to "liberate" suppressed minority of ethnic russians the locals will send them to hell and let them rot in their never ending corruption and fucked up government paradise + NATO stands by its fucking agreements, not like US/UK/CHN/FR with regards to UKR in light of their treaty of giving away nukes.

I also wish you a similar treatment in Siberia. You know... like 50 million chinese come there, start digging, you demand taxes, they say "FUCK YOU, WE WILL NOW STABILIZE THIS REGION" and then you bite off more than you can chew. Train some Ivani4, because all of diminishing russian population will not be enough to handle 1/5th of CHN army.

/Rant_over.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 02, 2014, 10:20:13 am
This theme becomes boring. You go to the insults. This is not a debate. Now You shall deny me speak. Boycott my deals on the market. Arrest my gold. When a lot of ebaotech is very bad. You probably, like a boxer Klitschko, hit a stone in the head in Kiev?  :evil:
You want to loyal opinions? However, what I write, do not speak Russian media. They say in the media in the United States, England, the EU.
By the way, is four hours that goes mobilization in Ukraine. I wonder weapons give all? In all cities?  :rolleyes:
In the borders of the United States discovered Navy of the Russian Federation! One small, but very scary ship :lol:.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 10:37:21 am
Putin's popularity is skyrocketing, and it's only rising because of his firm policy.

From Russian perspective, it was the West that instigated violent revolution in a friendly country on their border and replaced friendly Government with much less friendly Government. And all of that without elections. It just happens that this country is strategically most important country for Russia. So they believe Putin is right to defend Russian interests with force.

Having in mind what happened in Georgia 6 years ago, it seems unlikely that he will back down.

And one of the most hypocritical statements was issued by Russian Orthodox Church, classic manipulation in order to blame victim of aggression if the violence escalates. Here is what they say:

The Russian Orthodox Church described Russia's decision to send troops as a "peace-keeping mission".
"We hope that the mission of the Russian warriors aimed at defending the freedom and the cultural originality of [Ukrainians] will not meet with the sort of violent resistance which can lead to big-scale military engagements," the church said in a statement.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 02, 2014, 10:49:41 am
For a long time, soon the night, in the media (BBC, Euronews, Voice of America, Russian TV) give very little information. A bit more information on Ukrainian TV, "Radio Freedom". But there, too, mostly propaganda. But it shows Chinese canl TV:
http://www.cntv.ru/2014/03/01/VIDE1393672440572970.shtml
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 02, 2014, 10:54:54 am
At the beginning I was supporting Ukranians, but now since they`re asking help from islamofascist terrorists, I hope Putin nukes those suckers back to the stone age.

http://silveristhenew.com/2014/03/01/ukrainian-nationalists-call-for-help-from-terrorists-to-fight-russia/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokka_Umarov
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 02, 2014, 11:00:47 am
They don't ask it anymore. Probably they didn't, now they say their account was hacked and someone else posted it on their page. And even if they did - that's only one small, though very active, organization.

Actually, since that post was in russian social network, version about hacking is quite believable
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 02, 2014, 11:16:22 am
Separated at birth like Arnie and Danny DeVito

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grimoald on March 02, 2014, 11:34:43 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 02, 2014, 12:10:40 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 02, 2014, 08:51:35 am
Lets say... Chechnya? Part 1. Lets say there appears an unmarked, freedom desiring force, which wished to establish a country independent of some central "democratic" government in mOSCOW, by "all hail right and righteous" pUTIN.
Part 2. They would occupy local municipal buildings, sever comms with external world, run around guns blazing, eventually establish some kind of a government, rule of law, internal command structure. Then they would add markings to their uniforms and call themselfves a free nation, world would recognize them and a new countrie (albeit - maybe a fucked up one) is born. Because people deserve the right to be free and choose... in some referendum. Right...
About spontaneously emerged unknown self-defense forces in Crimea:
1)Kaliningrad(Königsberg)
2)Moscow
3)Vladivostok
4)Stavropol(near Chechnya)
(click to show/hide)


If EU would be able to survive without Russian gas & oil, then economical sanctions will hit very hard on Russia. Because half or Russian budget consists of gas & oil. Blockade all trade & there won't be any Putin in a year.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 02, 2014, 12:13:26 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 02, 2014, 10:54:54 am
At the beginning I was supporting Ukranians, but now since they`re asking help from islamofascist terrorists, I hope Putin nukes those suckers back to the stone age.

http://silveristhenew.com/2014/03/01/ukrainian-nationalists-call-for-help-from-terrorists-to-fight-russia/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokka_Umarov

Because Right Sector represents all the Ukrainians that opposed Yanukovych.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 02, 2014, 12:14:52 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 12:49:13 am
Are you kidding me? NATO? Wtf? What is NATO going to do? Go into World War 3 because of Crimea? C'mon. Be realistic. World War 3 wouldn't be profitable for anyone, no one would make money of it, and therefore it will not happen. Russian would have lost it, but if only 10% of Russian missiles would hit USA, only cockroaches would survive.

My best guess is that they will shout a lot, 'strongly condemn' and similar bullshit, and that's gonna be it. The only thing I don't know is how ready will Ukranians be to defend Crimea. One thing is certain, if they engage in full scale war with Russkies and lose, beside Crimea they will lose eastern part of the country. And I don't see how they can win, best thing they can hope for is a stalemate. After which there would be some bullshit negotiations, where everyone will agree that they should respect right of Crimeans to self-determination. After which it would also come to the same end - Crimea would separate from Ukraine.

However, if I was Ukrainian, I would also be ready to defend my country.
NATO entering a conflict with Russia on the other side does not mean that a full scale thermonuclear war is gonna erupt. Russia is pulling some real 19th century territory grab shit here which the world hasn't seen for quite a while, especially in a quasi-developed part of the world. This is a serious breach of any international law and there will be attempts at stopping it. Such attempts are costly for every party, including Russia. If they are met with resistance, whether it is diplomatic, economic or military, the costs of gaining territory increase immensely for Russia. NATO isn't going to start World War 3 for Crimea, but neither is Russia obviously. If NATO assists Ukraine in defending its borders Russia could be brought to back down without any further escalation. Though I agree probably nobody is willing to bear the costs for military resistance and NATO will not do anything.

Of course escalation is a risk, but letting territory grabbing go unpunished is very undesirable too. Which is of course also why Ukraine is preparing for war, countries don't just roll over and allow invasions, no matter how big the power difference is. Dunno where you are all from but I know my tiny country grabbed their World War 1 rifles to sit in their outdated wooden bunkers to defend against the Germans in 1940. Ukraine has to go to war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: FleetFox on March 02, 2014, 12:32:03 pm
From what I gather, there is a big concern that many of the Ukrainian (Russian speaking) military personal may defect to Russia, one of their navy ships has already done so. This a really messy situation, I'm worried for the Tatars in Crimea...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 02, 2014, 12:37:55 pm
Fear not, Ukraine. I am sure Germany is willing to help with any humanitarian aid we can come up with!

...cuz that is our way:

Sending in Police, engineers and people who know how to dig wells!

(Maybe some riflemen to protect the well diggers... only those tho!)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 02, 2014, 12:52:07 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 02, 2014, 10:20:13 am
This theme becomes boring. You go to the insults. This is not a debate. Now You shall deny me speak. Boycott my deals on the market. Arrest my gold. When a lot of ebaotech is very bad. You probably, like a boxer Klitschko, hit a stone in the head in Kiev?  :evil:
You want to loyal opinions? However, what I write, do not speak Russian media. They say in the media in the United States, England, the EU.
By the way, is four hours that goes mobilization in Ukraine. I wonder weapons give all? In all cities?  :rolleyes:
In the borders of the United States discovered Navy of the Russian Federation! One small, but very scary ship :lol:.

You want respect? Maybe start acting to deserve it? Maybe even as a nation, no only those 200 Russians, who gathered in Moscow to protest this fucked up "save our nationals! they will be killed by facists!" war that pUTIN has started? (btw - those are most likely the only russians who actually suffered to date due to all this conflict). I have no respect to nation who is acting the way rUSSIA is, but I know a LOT of russians who I do respect, because they recognize the bullshit your government-owned-media is feeding you. You on the other hand - do not. You name "occupation" and "invasion" as "restoring order" and congradulate that. Last time Lithuania "asked" (nevermind the 100x army on the doorstep and bought politicians internally, no such thing was there ofc, right?) USSR to help enact order and defend us - one third of the brightest lituanians suddenly decided that living in Siberia winter is an awesome one-way vacations. And that is why I say and I will repeat - FUCK YOU and FUCK YOUR BRAINWASHED HEAD :) Go back to the bottle of vodka you started 5 mins ago, it will not drink itself.

You by the way must be in the minority, because when it comes to debate - Russia suddenly decided "fuck that, we will invade, capture the region, then they can do all kinds of censored debates they want". So - why should I even attempt to debate with douche-bags who think current invasions and occupation is ok, merely "to restore order"?

And as to argumens - tell me the interpretation of chechnya you have in your head. Or maybe Georgia?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 02, 2014, 01:02:10 pm
Kuujis, the Russians are not retarded.. It's just you don't understand their point of view.

For them, the west wants access to Russias land and resources. (Which is probably true)For them, the west is the strong world power that bullies other nations into line, which is also somewhat true..  For them, Kiev was not a revolution of the people, but a western operation. Even the russians in Crimea share this viewpoint. EU is for them just an extension of Germany.. (Which still doesn't have a great rep east of your borders Molly :rolleyes:)

I read about the differences between east and west Ukraine. A student in the west said: Eastern Ukrainians don't know what the west IS.

And I think here lies the key. They simply don't know that it is possible to live in a relatively humane society with rights, freedom, and law and order that works. Where politicians don't steal billions and billions.  Where you have to be scared and lie and steal to get ahead in society.

Russians prefer to have a rotten system with thieves on top, rather than a system they don't know.  Just, let's not be retarded here.. I for one think people like Ivani4 expressing their opinion is way more interesting than 100 mass media articles, even though I strongly disagree.

On the long term, I think Putin does this so the Russians will not know a better system, and keep himself in place.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 02, 2014, 01:02:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 02, 2014, 12:52:07 pm
You want respect? Maybe start acting to deserve it? Maybe even as a nation, no only those 200 Russians, who gathered in Moscow to protest this fucked up "save our nationals! they will be killed by facists!" war that pUTIN has started? (btw - those are most likely the only russians who actually suffered to date due to all this conflict). I have no respect to nation who is acting the way rUSSIA is, but I know a LOT of russians who I do respect, because they recognize the bullshit your government-owned-media is feeding you. You on the other hand - do not. You name "occupation" and "invasion" as "restoring order" and congradulate that. Last time Lithuania "asked" (nevermind the 100x army on the doorstep and bought politicians internally, no such thing was there ofc, right?) USSR to help enact order and defend us - one third of the brightest lituanians suddenly decided that living in Siberia winter is an awesome one-way vacations. And that is why I say and I will repeat - FUCK YOU and FUCK YOUR BRAINWASHED HEAD :) Go back to the bottle of vodka you started 5 mins ago, it will not drink itself.

You by the way must be in the minority, because when it comes to debate - Russia suddenly decided "fuck that, we will invade, capture the region, then they can do all kinds of censored debates they want". So - why should I even attempt to debate with douche-bags who think current invasions and occupation is ok, merely "to restore order"?

Imagine being Russian and seeing the USA etc invade Afganistan then Iraq then drone bomb pakistan. Then watch as they scream shout and stomp their feet because you invade the crimea. Hypocrisy much? :D
And as to argumens - tell me the interpretation of chechnya you have in your head. Or maybe Georgia?


Why should Russia want your respect? The USA gets away with doing whatever they want all over the world be it invading sovereign countries or using drones to bomb them, you really think Russia is doing any worse? Respect means nothing when all sides do the same thing. Only reason the west is so worked up is that its Ukraine and Russia not someplace in the middle east and the USA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 02, 2014, 01:04:41 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 02, 2014, 10:54:54 am
At the beginning I was supporting Ukranians, but now since they`re asking help from islamofascist terrorists, I hope Putin nukes those suckers back to the stone age.

http://silveristhenew.com/2014/03/01/ukrainian-nationalists-call-for-help-from-terrorists-to-fight-russia/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokka_Umarov

Yeah, like the organization that never could pass the 3% barrier on elections to Parliament represents the Ukrainian people now.

Some of my friends officers got called already to get mobilized today and tomorrow (including my brother). I'm obligated to show myself there in a week or sooner if needed (waiting for a call).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 02, 2014, 01:14:12 pm
It doesnt matter, because it looks like that they`re in command of Ukraine now.


Anyway, take care Dave.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 02, 2014, 01:15:43 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 02, 2014, 01:04:41 pm
I'm obligated to show myself there in a week or sooner if needed (waiting for a call).

Poor russians, Dave will headshot all of them with his +3 sniper xbow :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jacko on March 02, 2014, 01:36:15 pm
There is no doubt this is an invasion by Russia to grab strategic territory from a weakened Ukraine. Russia does not like the idea of 'losing' strategic assets to a west friendly government, and have never liked the idea of Ukraine approaching the west and Europe in any way. A very powerful statement and sets precedent for further actions to protect Russian interests (see US foreign policy..).

Best way to get information is to follow it on twitter: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Ukraine&src=tyah

Tons of misinformation and propaganda from either side, but at least you get to see everything.

EDIT: bad writing, cleaned it up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 02, 2014, 01:52:17 pm
Tschechs ex-foreign minister said in an interview "When Hitler started grabbing foreign territory, he always said it's just to protect German citizens living in that territory."

He's actually right about that :O
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 02, 2014, 01:57:16 pm
Yeah, also pretty sure russia needs more lebensraum

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


lel
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 02, 2014, 02:06:48 pm
It's kinda weird... when you look at the map, Russia already has a huge coast along the Black Sea.

I don't really see the strategic necessity to have a base on Crimea really. I mean the technology advanced, intelligence comes from space, no need for a "forward" base... I don't see the point for that argument.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 02, 2014, 02:08:16 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 02, 2014, 01:52:17 pm
Tschechs ex-foreign minister said in an interview "When Hitler started grabbing foreign territory, he always said it's just to protect German citizens living in that territory."

He's actually right about that :O
Yep, it's pretty fun to troll using n a z i comparision in the country with strongest WW2 cult. It is even stronger than our second religion - Orthodox Christianity. Russians even invented they own war - Great Patriotic War  (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%9E%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0) (no English wiki exists since there was no such war :p ) Like there was only one true war between Soviets & chocolate chip cookiees while others were just jerking around.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:10:32 pm
I dont see how your EU "brainwashed" version is superior Kujiis, at least Ivanich isnt hostile and we can debate. The truth lies in the middle.

I think this topic deserve better than insults, we have managed to speak correctly to each other (for the most part) for 50 pages, lets not stop it here, just because the heat is increasing in Ukraine doesnt mean we have to increase it on the internet...



I think like Osiris on "who's the most honest country": everyone is using his power quite liberally and use propaganda to look like the best.
Might makes right even today, the only thing that changed from the middle age is the size of the alliances which are now on a planetary scale, and the danger of enabling them is interfering with human survival instinct.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 02:28:19 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 02, 2014, 12:14:52 pm
NATO entering a conflict with Russia on the other side does not mean that a full scale thermonuclear war is gonna erupt. Russia is pulling some real 19th century territory grab shit here which the world hasn't seen for quite a while, especially in a quasi-developed part of the world. This is a serious breach of any international law and there will be attempts at stopping it. Such attempts are costly for every party, including Russia. If they are met with resistance, whether it is diplomatic, economic or military, the costs of gaining territory increase immensely for Russia. NATO isn't going to start World War 3 for Crimea, but neither is Russia obviously. If NATO assists Ukraine in defending its borders Russia could be brought to back down without any further escalation. Though I agree probably nobody is willing to bear the costs for military resistance and NATO will not do anything.

Of course escalation is a risk, but letting territory grabbing go unpunished is very undesirable too. Which is of course also why Ukraine is preparing for war, countries don't just roll over and allow invasions, no matter how big the power difference is. Dunno where you are all from but I know my tiny country grabbed their World War 1 rifles to sit in their outdated wooden bunkers to defend against the Germans in 1940. Ukraine has to go to war.

Monteblack in spanish. And you are dreaming.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 02, 2014, 02:30:48 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:10:32 pm
I dont see how your EU "brainwashed" version is superior Kujiis, at least Ivanich isnt hostile and we can debate. The truth lies in the middle.

Nope, it doesn't. Ofc west side isn't saint, but in this particular case I don't see how you can say that both sides are somewhat right. They're not. WHen Janukowycz was in power noone in EU considered interfering in ukrainians affairs, not to mention sending troops. If ukraine and russia are on the edge of war it's because of what Putin did. I don't deny that in the past west side did more or less the same in a lot of places around the world, but it doesn't change that this crisis we have thanks to russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:39:34 pm
Not both are right, but both are wrong. Most of the time, opposing parties are using crooked arguments that cancels or adds to each other, and what is left is the closest thing to what is really happening.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 02, 2014, 02:49:43 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:39:34 pm
Not both are right, but both are wrong. Most of the time, opposing parties are using crooked arguments that cancels or adds to each other, and what is left is the closest thing to what is really happening.

Let's put aside arguments and shit talking of both sides; russian army invades ukraine, that's what happening. Why they do that is meaningless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 02, 2014, 03:05:36 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:39:34 pm
Not both are right, but both are wrong. Most of the time, opposing parties are using crooked arguments that cancels or adds to each other, and what is left is the closest thing to what is really happening.

Russia had only 2 friendly parties that could potentially pass 3% barrier to get into a Parliament. Those were the Yanukovich's party (Party of Regions, mostly consisted of mafia from the eastern Ukraine) and Communists' party. Since Russia doesn't support their own Communists it would be freaking stupid to support Ukrainian commies (they're commies only on papers, they have nothing to do with real communists as they simply betrayed all the principles of communism and they only get support from extremely old population of soviet Ukrainians, thus they get less support each year - their electorate simply dies because of age). The party of Yanukovich tried to take all the major and minor business in all cities of Ukraine. During only a couple of years, Ukraine became a good old Chicago, the level of banditism and corruption reached its top being compared to Ukraine of early 90's. How the hell can this be justified?

P.S. Butan, change your sig with that ridiculous large image.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 02, 2014, 04:32:08 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 02, 2014, 02:10:32 pm
I dont see how your EU "brainwashed" version is superior Kujiis, at least Ivanich isnt hostile and we can debate. The truth lies in the middle.

I think this topic deserve better than insults, we have managed to speak correctly to each other (for the most part) for 50 pages, lets not stop it here, just because the heat is increasing in Ukraine doesnt mean we have to increase it on the internet...



I think like Osiris on "who's the most honest country": everyone is using his power quite liberally and use propaganda to look like the best.
Might makes right even today, the only thing that changed from the middle age is the size of the alliances which are now on a planetary scale, and the danger of enabling them is interfering with human survival instinct.
Judging by "le" in "le Butan" - you are french? I therefore would argue, that you do not know what a proper brainwash is. Ever been tried for speaking against your current govenrment? Or been prosecuted and abused in jail for bringing corruption to daylight? Thats what russia is unfortunately. In EU there is a healthy pluralism going, with various different opinions going back and forth, various sources of information. russia - not so and thus - one can't compare lets say France with russia. MY father once said - only if the same info is repeated in 3 sources in media - it could be considered semi-trust worthy, but when only russian-state-controlled ones spew some specific bullshit, while all the other say different thing or at least do not throw accusations like the russian media - I do not see a strong brainwash on western side, and a HUGE one on russian side. Coupled with state controlled religion on top of that...(sic).

EU is making a mistake in thinking that debate and words matter for russia. At least 2 serious international examples (war in Georgia and invasion of Ukraine) show that Russia will start a war first and talk later. And they don't give a fuck.

And yes, I have overreacted like a child in past two posts, but frankly - being polite implies the other side returns the favor.  And I just don't see it in russia today. I see an open threat and being from a small country, which fought for its liberty and achieved it only relatively recently - I'm fucking afraid I will have to one day do, what Dave is about to do shortly (given that full mobilization is announced). And I do not have polite words to the source of my fear.

When ambassador in UN lies openly and pretends to "have no specific information" of which there are FUCKING VIDEOS of Ru troops coming to Crymea - whats the point of talking? They spit in your faces and... you wipe and smile?

As to "wanting resources" and such... what right does Russia have on Ukrainian resources? What the fuck are THEY doing there? Every nation wants something, but only some are fucked up enough to start wars about it. US, russia are among such. Soon (I FUCKING HOPE) China with their wish to take Siberia. Oh mai how fun it will be to listed to pUTIN crying then. I just hope I will not be drafted to go fight on behalf of that idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 02, 2014, 04:34:18 pm
i was just thinking: there're 60 percents of native russians on crimea. would really all of them support "putin" over getting closer to the "western civilization" in possible referendum? imho any result of free referendum is very uncertain.  on the other hand if you have there a few tens thousands of soldiers in crimea, there can be no doubts how any vote will finish :)

i overall rather support separation of countries based by nationality rather than historic borders. in case of my country (czechoslovakia) i'm not even sure if it was good idea to integrate sudeten into our territory. if so then at least germans should get some kind of autonomy there. all in all it in the end just led to peoples suffering not putting their opinion into consideration. when germans invaded it turned the other way around resulting again into nothing else than pain. in the end 3mil of germans had to leave my country. when commies came, they again separated society "focusing" only some part of it. if the population is divided in nationality/opinion/religion, one can't really favour one part of population over the other.

if some part of country wants to split then hell let them go, but it has to be done by themselves after some national consensus that this is the best way. not in the way when one country sends their army into another one to "protect" their landsmen. if the conflict arises, it will dig a ditch so deep, that one generation won't be able to dust it (as our otherwise completely retarded czech president in this case very well said). but russians were always imeprialists, they always followed only their interests and nobody's else and they always will be the same.

their "civilization" that just works on different rules which is in the end what is this all about. in our territory you either belong to the western civilization or to the east. some people just have the bad luck they're on the borders and have to constantly fight for where they want to belong. and with all the iraqs, lybias and other cases i hate i will still pick untasty uncle mc'donalds anytime over gulag - nothing else really matters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 02, 2014, 04:45:13 pm
Quote
I do not see a strong brainwash on western side, and a HUGE one on russian side. Coupled with state controlled religion on top of that...(sic).

EU is making a mistake in thinking that debate and words matter for russia. At least 2 serious international examples (war in Georgia and invasion of Ukraine) show that Russia will start a war first and talk later. And they don't give a fuck.

I seem to remember Iraq and Afghanistan and the massive media attempt to say Iraq is bad it has WMD and is targeting London and how we have to invade to protect ourselves etc and then invading a country that's no less brainwashing of total BS than you hear from Russia. Fact is Might is Right if the west can do it so can the east. Time will tell how far Russia will go with this or if they will just invade and set up a puppet govt and take out lots of cash like we do ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 02, 2014, 04:53:12 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on March 02, 2014, 05:06:50 pm
Quote from: Osiris on March 02, 2014, 04:45:13 pm
I seem to remember Iraq and Afghanistan and the massive media attempt to say Iraq is bad it has WMD and is targeting London and how we have to invade to protect ourselves etc and then invading a country that's no less brainwashing of total BS than you hear from Russia. Fact is Might is Right if the west can do it so can the east. Time will tell how far Russia will go with this or if they will just invade and set up a puppet govt and take out lots of cash like we do ^^

Except there were mass protests numbering in the millions when the invasion of Iraq occurred. It was the politicians who claimed the WMD theory. But, at least here in the UK, no one (or at least no many) really believed it for a second.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 02, 2014, 05:41:29 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 02, 2014, 04:34:18 pm
[...]
i overall rather support separation of countries based by nationality rather than historic borders. in case of my country (czechoslovakia) i'm not even sure if it was good idea to integrate sudeten into our territory. if so then at least germans should get some kind of autonomy there. [...]
Oh, you can keep the Sudeten-Germans. I can confidently tell that most Germans do not consider them German anymore. Maybe they do and some people still living in the past do but the general public is  :rolleyes: whenever they make an appearance of any sort. :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 02, 2014, 05:49:56 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 02, 2014, 05:41:29 pm
Oh, you can keep the Sudeten-Germans. I can confidently tell that most Germans do not consider them German anymore. Maybe they do and some people still living in the past do but the general public is  :rolleyes: whenever they make an appearance of any sort. :P

well now its not a problem to keep that area since almost no germans live there anymore :D
the only one who could separate us from sudety are russians if they come to help their "oppressed" people living in karlsbad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 02, 2014, 05:53:10 pm
There actually is a "movement" to return the Germans kicked out back then to their former property and stuff. Taking median of the age of said "movement", you'll end up with something around 75, I guess :D
Nobody takes them serious tho. With good reaosn :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 02, 2014, 07:29:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 02, 2014, 03:05:36 pm
Russia had only 2 friendly parties that could potentially pass 3% barrier to get into a Parliament. Those were the Yanukovich's party (Party of Regions, mostly consisted of mafia from the eastern Ukraine) and Communists' party. Since Russia doesn't support their own Communists it would be freaking stupid to support Ukrainian commies (they're commies only on papers, they have nothing to do with real communists as they simply betrayed all the principles of communism and they only get support from extremely old population of soviet Ukrainians, thus they get less support each year - their electorate simply dies because of age). The party of Yanukovich tried to take all the major and minor business in all cities of Ukraine. During only a couple of years, Ukraine became a good old Chicago, the level of banditism and corruption reached its top being compared to Ukraine of early 90's. How the hell can this be justified?

If Dave is really an Ukrainian here (DaveUKR) his opinion is the only one that matters here.


Also USA got laser and plasma weapons in the sky and can easily destroy all nukes Russia got.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 02, 2014, 07:39:53 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 02, 2014, 10:54:54 am
At the beginning I was supporting Ukranians, but now since they`re asking help from islamofascist terrorists, I hope Putin nukes those suckers back to the stone age.

http://silveristhenew.com/2014/03/01/ukrainian-nationalists-call-for-help-from-terrorists-to-fight-russia/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokka_Umarov
Some of them Dudaev's comrades. Hey Europe, look at your new citizen lol.  I'm joking, he doesn't like you.
Our TV (russian) uses them (Right Sector)  for discredit protests (actually It's not difficult, cuz they hate Russia and some of them took part in Chechen War against Russia)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on March 02, 2014, 07:45:02 pm
Anyone else puzzled that twice in a row now, conflict/civil war in that region involving Russia break out at the same time as the Olympics?
Good or bad timing?

It is a few weeks every 2nd year, so it can happen by chance.

Georgian–Ossetian conflict broke out during the Olympics in Beijing 2008

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 02, 2014, 07:57:00 pm
Quote
Ukraine has launched a treason case against its new navy chief after he switched allegiance to the pro-Russian Crimea region amid escalating tensions in the country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 08:16:18 pm
Nice analysis of USA options:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/russia-to-pay-not-so-simple.html?hp&_r=3
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 02, 2014, 08:19:36 pm
Why treason since Crimea is russian territory?

Thats what people will say in the near future... Or so it seems.



NATO secretary general speech was rather underwhelming and short  :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 02, 2014, 10:49:42 pm

Sick.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on March 02, 2014, 10:56:40 pm
Only youngs are beated there ? Sad video...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on March 02, 2014, 10:57:27 pm
Quote from: WarLord on March 02, 2014, 10:56:21 pm
What exactly do we see here?

I think they are young pro-Eu beated by pro-Russia pple in East Ukraine...M I right ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 02, 2014, 11:03:08 pm
Yes, you are right
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 02, 2014, 11:06:48 pm
If they are chanting BERKUT then they are pro-Rus not Pro-EU. Pretty simple.

Seems Berkut is something of a rally cry.

Over here in US, I asked around my work. Most didn't even know Ukraine had a revolt or just new something wasn't right over in Ukraine. To far away for the masses to care. Now a guy I know who is joining the Peace corp and I had a chat. He was actually all for Russia taking it over and letting everyone sort it for themselves(Paraphrased, but that's what he ment, though not said exactly like that). We were also discussing liklihood of something actually happening. He said Putin already won and everyone else is going to back down. Course he also agrees that the US won't do shit, and EU can't handle this cause it sucks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on March 02, 2014, 11:15:14 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on March 02, 2014, 11:06:48 pm
If they are chanting BERKUT then they are pro-Rus not Pro-EU. Pretty simple.

Seems Berkut is something of a rally cry.

Over here in US, I asked around my work. Most didn't even know Ukraine had a revolt or just new something wasn't right over in Ukraine. To far away for the masses to care. Now a guy I know who is joining the Peace corp and I had a chat. He was actually all for Russia taking it over and letting everyone sort it for themselves(Paraphrased, but that's what he ment, though not said exactly like that). We were also discussing liklihood of something actually happening. He said Putin already won and everyone else is going to back down. Course he also agrees that the US won't do shit, and EU can't handle this cause it sucks.
I'm afraid you are right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Perverz on March 02, 2014, 11:23:57 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 02, 2014, 10:49:42 pm

Sick.

fucking animals.
napalm should be used against this savages
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 02, 2014, 11:27:03 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on March 02, 2014, 11:06:48 pm
If they are chanting BERKUT then they are pro-Rus not Pro-EU. Pretty simple.

Seems Berkut is something of a rally cry.

Over here in US, I asked around my work. Most didn't even know Ukraine had a revolt or just new something wasn't right over in Ukraine. To far away for the masses to care. Now a guy I know who is joining the Peace corp and I had a chat. He was actually all for Russia taking it over and letting everyone sort it for themselves(Paraphrased, but that's what he ment, though not said exactly like that). We were also discussing liklihood of something actually happening. He said Putin already won and everyone else is going to back down. Course he also agrees that the US won't do shit, and EU can't handle this cause it sucks.

The only unknown in all of this is what Ukrainians are gonna do. Military response would lead to disaster, especially with loyalties divided. I mean, their chief of navy deserted. Chief of Navy, ffs. Also, it would give Putin excuse to do the same thing he did in Georgia. In Georgia he did not engage Russian military (while South Osetians were provoking all the time with bombing and artillery attacks) until Sakashvili gave him an excuse by ordering his troops to attack. The "war" lasted for like three days. In three days they have completely devastated Georgian military machine. There are lot of parallels that can be drawn here. However, Putin has, time and again, proved that he is very unpredictable player. All that KGB schooling at work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 02, 2014, 11:49:06 pm
Well, as I said, this will come down to who blinks first.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 02, 2014, 11:52:36 pm
Interesting conclussion from: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/03/02/the-invasion-of-crimea-is-russias-worst-foreign-policy-blunder-in-a-generation/
Russia will “succeed” in the narrow sense of taking over Crimea and, perhaps, other parts of Eastern Ukraine. But from a strategic perspective its intervention in Ukraine will be a disaster: it will seriously weaken an already stuttering economy and will poison relations with a host of countries with which Russia needs to have productive working relationships. It might appear that Russia is confidently asserting its power in its neighborhood, but it is actually making a blunder of historic proportions.
Also http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html#.UxOm4vR_soZ
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 03, 2014, 12:05:54 am
Quote from: Perverz on March 02, 2014, 11:23:57 pm
fucking animals.
napalm should be used against this savages

Yes, burn them, then make those guys parliament members :




Those kind of vids are hard to find but just wanted to remember people violence is both side, and it happens mostly when someone has the upper hand, a.k.a. victor takes the spoils.
In both videos you can see people that try to stop, protect, and other people who wants to kick/punch/throw things... welcome to riots.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 03, 2014, 12:11:45 am
Quote from: Moncho on March 02, 2014, 11:52:36 pm
Interesting conclussion from: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/03/02/the-invasion-of-crimea-is-russias-worst-foreign-policy-blunder-in-a-generation/
Russia will “succeed” in the narrow sense of taking over Crimea and, perhaps, other parts of Eastern Ukraine. But from a strategic perspective its intervention in Ukraine will be a disaster: it will seriously weaken an already stuttering economy and will poison relations with a host of countries with which Russia needs to have productive working relationships. It might appear that Russia is confidently asserting its power in its neighborhood, but it is actually making a blunder of historic proportions.
Also http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html#.UxOm4vR_soZ
I agree but only to an extent.  Russia's western supporters, those that already exist, probably don't give a damn about Crimea.  And when this is all over and things are "settled" it's not like Russia is suddenly going to disappear.  People will be riled up about this for awhile but soon it will pass just as all wars have passed.  Many people have died over Crimea and many more probably will.  Business will go on as usual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 03, 2014, 01:28:40 am
Quote from: Moncho on March 02, 2014, 11:52:36 pm
Also http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html#.UxOm4vR_soZ

This kind of makes sense to me. Who the hell cares if Russia takes Crimea after all? Maybe some care enough to help Ukrainians create a resistance, or fund other anti-russian movements.

Anyway, the situation isn't the same as 100 years ago... right ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:50:42 am
I am so scared of people's retardness... double standards are everywhere!
if you was on the side of even more violent protestors, why you are not on the side of another protesters? maybe cuz you disagree with them? so laws should work different to people with different points of view?
all this shit is happening cuz we've got government changes without agreement from at least half of country's populating... even without ANY respect to their point of view... so why you are using to wonder? and now, the result of such unlegitimate actions from that maydan demonstrators is unstable situation in ukraine which caused the russian invading. and all this happened because about 300-500k of people though that they have permission to choose the life for millions of ukrainians. is it right? and now, when from peaceful situation Ukraine falled into pre-war period people who wasnt on demonstrators side should just look at people who was destroying the country? who was trying to kill policemen and became a national heroes?
// Serr, you are from Zaprozhie? right? how many people have the same point of view like your?
// Dave is somewhere from middle ukraine... as the person from middle ukraine I have to say that MOST of people wasnt agreed with maydan.

but if we look back at Crimea... well maybe this phrase sounds a bit provokating, but seems like people there are same glad to see russians as citizen of Lviv was glad to see German army at WW2. both was meeting them not as occupators but as liberators.


I dont want war and I am sad because I cant even guess what can be tommorow but I blame not Putin for destabilisation.
I still hope that all this can be ended without bloodshed but I am not sure that Russian will not show who really should be ruler of Ukraine =\ and thats right... historically ukraine never was independent for long...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Havoco on March 03, 2014, 02:54:59 am
From what I've seen/heard it looks as though they just need to form an east and west Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on March 03, 2014, 03:01:16 am
Then we can build a wall and call it a day.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 03, 2014, 03:21:02 am
All i got from this thread is tons of Russians coming in saying Russia deserves Crimea/Ukraine, tons of EUs hating on USA cuz they invaded Iraq and that means Russia and every other country should be allowed to invade atleast 1 country each and Butan going pro-Russia. And some EUs lolzing at Russian bear invading Ukraine.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 07:19:27 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:50:42 am
(click to show/hide)

It's hard to take your opinion seriously after sth like that:

Quote from: Dark_Blade on February 06, 2014, 06:46:45 am
I really dislike the gays who shows their sexual preference to the public. this thing is totaly individual same as religion and its becomming really bad thing when some people are trying to impose their view to other people.

thats why there is nothing to wonder when people who hate gays are beating the gays who came on the march.

is it right that alot of people are comming at the place with banners and screaming that they are f*cking the ass of another man or getting f*cked? none productive, unnatural bullshit.
but what about children? who can see this and think its normal?
its not normal and even more, its wrong. think about it before protect the rights of gays.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 03, 2014, 07:47:28 am
Russians who support the war:
(click to show/hide)
who don't:
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:50:42 am
and all this happened because about 300-500k of people though that they have permission to choose the life for millions of ukrainians. is it right?
Basics of democracy. If a minority(300-500k) tries to do stuff witch majority(45kk) doesn't approve, the majority should show it. I didn't see 300-500k ppl anti-maidans. Even when they had police on their side.
Tell us, how 300-500k could take over the country if 45 millions disagree with them. Why didn't they support their legitimate ruler a month ago?
Although when in Sevastopol people started protests against new government there was same-sized protest against Russia. On the same street. Because both sides cared about their future.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Perverz on March 03, 2014, 08:09:55 am
Quote from: Butan on March 03, 2014, 12:05:54 am
Yes, burn them, then make those guys parliament members :



i dont judge all nation... just said this apes are fucking morons...... its very nice from them to beat that scared kids.... if you aprove this than your place is in zoo with banana in your hand
and tbh i dont know how you came to that conclusion they should be in parliament  :shock:

(click to show/hide)

well for your information russia has invaded other country. thats the reason i cant support this kind of "action" .....EOD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: jtobiasm on March 03, 2014, 08:15:34 am
Can someone give me a tl:dr of whats happen in Ukraine and this russia war thing.

Pweeeeeeeeez
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:28:57 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:50:42 am
I am so scared of people's retardness... double standards are everywhere!
if you was on the side of even more violent protestors, why you are not on the side of another protesters? maybe cuz you disagree with them? so laws should work different to people with different points of view?
all this shit is happening cuz we've got government changes without agreement from at least half of country's populating... even without ANY respect to their point of view... so why you are using to wonder? and now, the result of such unlegitimate actions from that maydan demonstrators is unstable situation in ukraine which caused the russian invading. and all this happened because about 300-500k of people though that they have permission to choose the life for millions of ukrainians. is it right? and now, when from peaceful situation Ukraine falled into pre-war period people who wasnt on demonstrators side should just look at people who was destroying the country? who was trying to kill policemen and became a national heroes?
// Serr, you are from Zaprozhie? right? how many people have the same point of view like your?
// Dave is somewhere from middle ukraine... as the person from middle ukraine I have to say that MOST of people wasnt agreed with maydan.

but if we look back at Crimea... well maybe this phrase sounds a bit provokating, but seems like people there are same glad to see russians as citizen of Lviv was glad to see German army at WW2. both was meeting them not as occupators but as liberators.


I dont want war and I am sad because I cant even guess what can be tommorow but I blame not Putin for destabilisation.
I still hope that all this can be ended without bloodshed but I am not sure that Russian will not show who really should be ruler of Ukraine =\ and thats right... historically ukraine never was independent for long...

I'm not from the middle of Ukraine. As I've stated already - I'm from Odessa. And I'm supposed to come from a city which by your opinion should support Yanukovich, but really? Yes, he did have some certain support by the time of Maidan but excuse me... the only supporters of Yanukovich were the lowest classes of Ukraine: bums, alcoholics, insane grannies, uneducated youth (bydlo), former and current bandits and as an exclusion - families of people who worked on him.

Maidan wasn't for those nationalists, Maidan was against Yanukovich. And even with his enormous money (by now he has more than $70,000,000,000 blocked in EU banks) he couldn't "buy" enough people to counter Maidan. I'm sorry to say this but you're nothing more than just a victim of Propaganda. You are the part of Ukrainian population that is not any better than those nаzis from the west. And no doubt that wise people will be against both you and nаzi. Because there is no difference.

P.S. For everyone. Yes, not everyone is happy with current government but it's not the first question for now. Also not a single guy from that Right Sector has a position in Parliament/Government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 03, 2014, 08:37:15 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:50:42 am
I am so scared of people's retardness... double standards are everywhere!
if you was on the side of even more violent protestors, why you are not on the side of another protesters? maybe cuz you disagree with them? so laws should work different to people with different points of view?
all this shit is happening cuz we've got government changes without agreement from at least half of country's populating... even without ANY respect to their point of view... so why you are using to wonder? and now, the result of such unlegitimate actions from that maydan demonstrators is unstable situation in ukraine which caused the russian invading. and all this happened because about 300-500k of people though that they have permission to choose the life for millions of ukrainians. is it right? and now, when from peaceful situation Ukraine falled into pre-war period people who wasnt on demonstrators side should just look at people who was destroying the country? who was trying to kill policemen and became a national heroes?
// Serr, you are from Zaprozhie? right? how many people have the same point of view like your?
// Dave is somewhere from middle ukraine... as the person from middle ukraine I have to say that MOST of people wasnt agreed with maydan.

but if we look back at Crimea... well maybe this phrase sounds a bit provokating, but seems like people there are same glad to see russians as citizen of Lviv was glad to see German army at WW2. both was meeting them not as occupators but as liberators.


I dont want war and I am sad because I cant even guess what can be tommorow but I blame not Putin for destabilisation.
I still hope that all this can be ended without bloodshed but I am not sure that Russian will not show who really should be ruler of Ukraine =\ and thats right... historically ukraine never was independent for long...

Would you prefer NATO stabilizing situation in chechnya? Or lets say - native poles/lithuanians start demonstrations in Kaliningrad, are suppressed and then NATO comes in to "stabilize" stuff?

You can sing about not blaming putler all you want, but it does not change the fact, that HE ordered invasion of Ukraine and HE is acting as a true facist, based on example set by Chocolate Chip Cookie Leader himself. Only - let me ask you, did any of russian "investigative journalists" or "talk shows" investigated this line of reasoning?

And since I just speculating about prospect of China invading sibera to enforce order and save chinese citizens from oppression - what do your think tanks think of that?  :rolleyes:
[Eddited to account for forum cenorship/autoreplace]
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:37:28 am
Quote from: jtobiasm on March 03, 2014, 08:15:34 am
Can someone give me a tl:dr of whats happen in Ukraine and this russia war thing.

Pweeeeeeeeez

Russia invaded Crimea, first with soldiers without flags, afterwards claiming that there are Nаzis killing Russians there. Didn't find any Nаzi, blocked all the important places with military (airports, Parliament, military bases, ports, main roads, border points), tries to capture them. Already changed local government to puppets and want to annex the Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 03, 2014, 08:40:55 am
Some propaganda
(click to show/hide)

Peacefull protest against war (Russia)
(click to show/hide)

Protest in Odessa and Dnepropetrovsk aginst war ( pro russia regions of Ukraine )
(click to show/hide)

To Butan - official list of killed ppl on maidan from 18.02.2014 untill 26.02.2014 ( there are 11 policemans among them )
http://www.ukrinform.ua/ukr/news/spisok_zagiblih_na_maydani_1911905

To Dark Blade - I`m from Vinnytska region middle of Ukraine and about 80% ppl support maidan here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: jtobiasm on March 03, 2014, 08:53:19 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:37:28 am
Russia invaded Crimea, first with soldiers without flags, afterwards claiming that there are Nаzis killing Russians there. Didn't find any Nаzi, blocked all the important places with military (airports, Parliament, military bases, ports, main roads, border points), tries to capture them. Already changed local government to puppets and want to annex the Crimea.

Thanks Dave
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 03, 2014, 09:19:23 am
Quote
// Serr, you are from Zaprozhie? right? how many people have the same point of view like your?

What do you mean by "point of view like your"?
There are different opinions on different matters. Most people didn't support maidan, most people didn't support Yanukovich. Most people, and I agree with them, think that it would be better to wait till president elections and change power peacefully, but...

Now, everyone hates what Russia is doing and while our current government and parliament causes some questions and worrings, it is recognized here as legitimate power(even if it is not). We just cannot afford another change of government or even worse, returning of Yanukovich, it would completely destroy the country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 03, 2014, 09:29:49 am
I invite everyone to relax this summer here in Russia, in the Crimea zazazazaza
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: FleetFox on March 03, 2014, 09:49:39 am
I'm just wondering what the EU and USA (NATO) can really do... Yes Crimea seems to be in the hands of Russia apart from some Ukrainian professional soldier bases? The thing is from what I've read, the West arn't too bothered about West Ukraine joining the EU if there was a split because all the industry and economic powerhouses of Ukraine are in the East and Crimea. That's why I am quite concerned whether Putin will start to take over East Ukraine, and if he does who can actually stop him??
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on March 03, 2014, 09:50:31 am
Be carefull, Rusia :

We are :

(click to show/hide)

....THE DANGER !

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 09:52:18 am
Kiev: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaWoKC4W_NE
Kharkov: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DJFNygHqK8

Libya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X7-dA3Afvo
Lutsk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGFUaOIxewk

Mobilization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM

Animal with Kalashnikov: http://youtu.be/xsyYlsQ6UjA
The Winners Of The Maidan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOdnE_5-hUA, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMpm2q4tfOk ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDDC0lDxinY
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on March 03, 2014, 10:00:01 am
Quote from: FleetFox on March 03, 2014, 09:49:39 am
I'm just wondering what the EU and USA (NATO) can really do... Yes Crimea seems to be in the hands of Russia apart from some Ukrainian professional soldier bases? The thing is from what I've read, the West arn't too bothered about West Ukraine joining the EU if there was a split because all the industry and economic powerhouses of Ukraine are in the East and Crimea. That's why I am quite concerned whether Putin will start to take over East Ukraine, and if he does who can actually stop him??
Russia could become the new international pariah like Best Korea.
Won't be good for the already stuttering economy.
And Europe can just buy gas and oil from the Azerbeidjan - Turkey oil pipeline.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: FleetFox on March 03, 2014, 10:15:00 am
Yeah Perhaps Boerenlater,

From the Guardian:

However, Pavel Felgenhauer, a Moscow-based military expert, said he did not expect to see long columns of Russian tanks rolling across the black earth border regions into eastern Ukraine.

"The time of year for serious warfare is totally wrong," he said. "This is black soil area and at this time of year it's wet, wet, wet. The Germans found that. They'll have to wait until June for it to dry up or they won't be able to move off the roads."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 03, 2014, 10:32:56 am
Quote from: FleetFox on March 03, 2014, 09:49:39 am
I'm just wondering what the EU and USA (NATO) can really do... Yes Crimea seems to be in the hands of Russia apart from some Ukrainian professional soldier bases? The thing is from what I've read, the West arn't too bothered about West Ukraine joining the EU if there was a split because all the industry and economic powerhouses of Ukraine are in the East and Crimea. That's why I am quite concerned whether Putin will start to take over East Ukraine, and if he does who can actually stop him??
Embargo. 6-12 months & there would be another Maidan near Kremlin. Russia is not Bad Korea - no grass eating would be tolerated :) Russians won't be able to love Putin without food in markets & cash in their pockets.
Just don't close borders, wait till I evacuate  :rolleyes:

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:28:57 am
by now he has more than $70,000,000,000 blocked in EU banks
Is it correct number? Sochi Olympics were cheaper  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 10:40:34 am
Quote from: Boerenlater on March 03, 2014, 10:00:01 am
Russia could become the new international pariah like Best Korea.
Won't be good for the already stuttering economy.
And Europe can just buy gas and oil from the Azerbeidjan - Turkey oil pipeline.
You will do well in the summer only. In winter, the EU has always sucked and will suck (natural gas  :wink:) in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 10:41:32 am
Quote from: Segd on March 03, 2014, 10:32:56 am
Is it correct number? Sochi Olympics were cheaper  :shock:

At least it's said so. I think that he has much more money. I read somewhere that his team took 50-70 billions each year.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 10:43:11 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 10:40:34 am
You will do well in the summer only. In winter, the EU has always sucked and will suck (natural gas  :wink:) in Russia.

Excuse me for the private question: what is your month salary and profession?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 03, 2014, 10:46:04 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 10:40:34 am
You will do well in the summer only. In winter, the EU has always sucked and will suck (natural gas  :wink:) in Russia.

At least your brainwashed head recognized this... I wonder AGAIN whether CHN will be sucking those gases peacefully or will come to liberated their oppressed citizens who are working on new pipes to China ... OH, and COMPLETELY incidentally - the gas too  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 10:56:26 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 10:43:11 am
Excuse me for the private question: what is your month salary and profession?
I'm not military. My war has long ended. I work on energy of Russia.  :idea: The gas pipeline to China. The same is my contribution.  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 10:59:17 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 10:56:26 am
I'm not military. My war has long ended. I work on energy of Russia.  :idea: The gas pipeline to China. The same is my contribution.  :wink:

I know it. I mean I want to know your official salary in rubles.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: bavvoz on March 03, 2014, 11:03:37 am
Best of wishes to those of u getting affected by this. I dont know more about this than what media reports so i wont say anything about this and that is right/wrong but i do hope it can be solved peacefully.

A guess is that we will see an increase to military budgets in eu after this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 03, 2014, 11:08:23 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 10:41:32 am
At least it's said so. I think that he has much more money. I read somewhere that his team took 50-70 billions each year.
I think you got the numbers wrong, 70 billion in personal wealth would make him the second richest man in the world. Even if it isn't personal wealth you can't extract 50-70 billions yearly out of a country that only produces 180 billion a year. It was probably millions.

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 10:40:34 am
You will do well in the summer only. In winter, the EU has always sucked and will suck (natural gas  :wink:) in Russia.
Russia is just as relient on the income of those gas exports as the EU is relient on the gas. EU has the power to wreck Russia's fragile and stagnant poorly managed energy export economy. It will definitely cost the EU as well, but if they share the costs between member states they could get Russia to back down. Sadly the EU probably does not care enough or member states will be completely unwilling to sustain the costs of any sanctions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 11:09:49 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 10:59:17 am
I know it. I mean I want to know your official salary in rubles.
I often meet at sites with engineers and workers from Dnipropetrovsk, Donetsk, and Sumy. They know how many people receive Russian oil and gas facilities. Ask them. We have such information is a commercial secret. I have no right to disclose. However, I can report is that even a simple worker receives $ 1000-3000. However, workers from other States is not there. There is only the representatives of the countries of suppliers of technological equipment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on March 03, 2014, 11:10:43 am
Quote from: Teeth on March 03, 2014, 11:08:23 am
I think you got the numbers wrong, 70 billion in personal wealth would make him the second richest man in the world. Even if it isn't personal wealth you can't extract 50-70 billions yearly out of a country that only produces 180 billion a year. It was probably millions.
Russia is just as relient on the income of those gas exports as the EU is relient on the gas. EU has the power to wreck Russia's fragile and stagnant poorly managed energy export economy. It will definitely cost the EU as well, but if they share the costs between member states they could get Russia to back down. Sadly the EU probably does not care enough or member states will be completely unwilling to sustain the costs of any sanctions.
It was in the billions. I've read that in the newspaper. A whole pyramid scheme of corruption. And from every layer a bit went to the higher ups and then to Yanukovych.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 03, 2014, 11:42:17 am
Quote
...The White House

Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release March 02, 2014 G-7 Leaders Statement
We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States and the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission, join together today to condemn the Russian Federation’s clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, in contravention of Russia’s obligations under the UN Charter and its 1997 basing agreement with Ukraine. We call on Russia to address any ongoing security or human rights concerns that it has with Ukraine through direct negotiations, and/or via international observation or mediation under the auspices of the UN or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. We stand ready to assist with these efforts.

We also call on all parties concerned to behave with the greatest extent of self-restraint and responsibility, and to decrease the tensions.

We note that Russia’s actions in Ukraine also contravene the principles and values on which the G-7 and the G-8 operate. As such, we have decided for the time being to suspend our participation in activities associated with the preparation of the scheduled G-8 Summit in Sochi in June, until the environment comes back where the G-8 is able to have meaningful discussion.

We are united in supporting Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, and its right to choose its own future. We commit ourselves to support Ukraine in its efforts to restore unity, stability, and political and economic health to the country. To that end, we will support Ukraine’s work with the International Monetary Fund to negotiate a new program and to implement needed reforms. IMF support will be critical in unlocking additional assistance from the World Bank, other international financial institutions, the EU, and bilateral sources.

Don't get why Italy in G-7 though.  Wasn't too stronk for last 2000 years  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on March 03, 2014, 12:02:31 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:50:42 am
but I blame not Putin for destabilisation.
I hope you blame Yanukowych for stolen money in Ukraine....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SugarHoe on March 03, 2014, 12:35:49 pm
god damn silly eu scum.. USA USA USA :!:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 03, 2014, 01:11:38 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 03, 2014, 03:21:02 am
All i got from this thread is tons of Russians coming in saying Russia deserves Crimea/Ukraine, tons of EUs hating on USA cuz they invaded Iraq and that means Russia and every other country should be allowed to invade atleast 1 country each and Butan going pro-Russia. And some EUs lolzing at Russian bear invading Ukraine.

Not hating on our anglo cousins :P

I just find it funny that we (UK and USA) go around the world invading countries on trumped up pretexts like WMDs and protecting ourselves then we come out with stuff like this

Quote
John Kerry, the US Secretary of State

"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext,"
When that's exactly what we have been doing :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 03, 2014, 01:21:12 pm
http://imgur.com/gallery/qCXlb
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 01:28:18 pm
Russia is basically chocolate chip cookie Germany in the 1930's. Racist, facist thugs ironically calling the west chocolate chip cookies. Crimea = Sudetenland. Except of course the only reason Crimea has a narrow majority of ethnic russians is because the soviets deported all the tartars, not to mention that little thing called the Holodomor that they still insist never happened or was "exagerated".

EU isn't going to do shit militarily or economically of course, the only thing Russia has of any worth (oil and gas) means they have the whole continent's balls in a vice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 01:34:00 pm
By The Way, Dave. There are a lot of vacancies. Look on the Internet. If you have health. If you do not faint you in spirit. Get a Russian passport. And, welcome! In these works employs millions of Russians. Only, however, cars more than one year are seldom aged. But many people stronger. Why put people on their knees, throwing in other stones or shoot? Work is always more beneficial (materially and spiritually).
http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v154458300ee
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 01:41:29 pm
Nobody in their right mind would go to Russia for work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 03, 2014, 01:41:49 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 01:28:18 pm
economically of course

I'm sure the future sanctions will severely hit Russia on the 'wallet' -- not to mention stocks have been plummeting in Russia due to the crisis.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-03/bp-s-1-billion-loss-in-russia-overnight-highlights-rosneft-risk (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-03/bp-s-1-billion-loss-in-russia-overnight-highlights-rosneft-risk)

Quote from: Business Week
“Russia as a place for foreign direct investment would be hurt by any kind of war effort,” said Jason Kenny, an oil equity analyst at Banco Santander SA in Edinburgh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 01:46:20 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 03, 2014, 01:41:29 pm
Nobody in their right mind would go to Russia for work.
From Finland?   :rolleyes:  However, people from Ukraine and Moldova already for a long time and a lot of work in Russia. And, believe me, they are completely healthy. In contrast to the group of the sick people like you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 02:01:09 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 01:34:00 pm
By The Way, Dave. There are a lot of vacancies. Look on the Internet. If you have health. If you do not faint you in spirit. Get a Russian passport. And, welcome! In these works employs millions of Russians. Only, however, cars more than one year are seldom aged. But many people stronger. Why put people on their knees, throwing in other stones or shoot? Work is always more beneficial (materially and spiritually).
http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v154458300ee

Okay, no need for your propaganda here. Everyone knows that Russia outside Moscow and Petersburg is definitely not a 3rd world country. And teachers/doctors have more than $500 monthly salaries. And also you have the best roads in Europe. Also your government and police is not corrupted at all and it's only rumours that people can even kill others and avoid the prison only by paying money.

Also Russia has the strongest army and military service grows patriotism in hearts of young Russians (no one ever tries to avoid military service because everyone likes Putin and is looking forward to serve for Mother Russia!). Here are some pics of glorious service in Russian Army:

On this picture you can see that brave Russians love muslims (Ingushetia definitely doesn't revenge for the war on its territory and in Chechnya)
(click to show/hide)

Same "Ingushetia" (also that sign with a finger is an islamic symbol there)
(click to show/hide)

Russians are so proud to serve that they are ready to show it to Sakha Republic (Yakutiya)
(click to show/hide)

Here comes Dagestan. Another completely friendly muslim nation that never helped Chechnya in the war.
(click to show/hide)

One more Ingushetia
(click to show/hide)

Dagestan again
(click to show/hide)

Friendly Chechnya!
(click to show/hide)

Azerbaijan
(click to show/hide)

Dagestan again
(click to show/hide)

Even own Russian folks are happy ignite bravery in hearts of their soldiers by making very important signs on their heads (DMB 2010 means demobilized in 2010)
(click to show/hide)

Being serious: I got bored finding more pics. The internet has shitloads of them because muslims upload them in social networks considering as something that they should be proud of. Also you can search for loads of videos where soldiers beat others just because they don't want to do stupid things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 03, 2014, 02:11:04 pm
Could we refrain from flexing our own countries muscles over the internet? We will have time for that in our very own barracks and behind the front line if shit goes down.



If Russia didnt invade Ukraine, but unrest happened in Eastern Ukraine + Crimea, asking for a pro-russia government, I wonder what the pro-europe government in Kiev would have done... Russia took actions too fast, and maybe the people wouldnt have rioted without their action.

I think like others that people have right to show their disagreement with the country they live in (the only thing I disagree with is that they should be ready to die then, and not cry when they get shot), it would have been preferable if pro-russians had been starting the same kind of protest without the help of russia military, because it decreases the legitimacy of such protests.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 03, 2014, 02:12:10 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 02:01:09 pm
(click to show/hide)

 a year later, the guys with the letters on their backs will write on recruits  :P

but how do you can know you're officer and not a soldier  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 02:13:11 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 01:46:20 pm
From Finland?   :rolleyes:  However, people from Ukraine and Moldova already for a long time and a lot of work in Russia. And, believe me, they are completely healthy. In contrast to the group of the sick people like you.
Well, I guess if you live in some really shitty part of Ukraine or Moldova you might want to go to Russia for some marginal improvement. But could just go to some non-fucked up country for the same effort.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 03, 2014, 02:13:50 pm
Quote from: Osiris on March 03, 2014, 01:11:38 pm
I just find it funny that we (UK and USA) go around the world invading countries on trumped up pretexts like WMDs and protecting ourselves then we come out with stuff like this
When that's exactly what we have been doing :D
Good point but that describes pretty much every major power in the last two centuries.  We spout all this progressive ideology while subjugating weaker nations.  It's just in the last 50 years or so we've noticed real wars are too costly compared to trade agreements where collusion is profitable.  It's actually kind of mind-boggling that the USA has been at war for over a decade now.  Those rascally muslims must really scare them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 03, 2014, 02:16:12 pm
Quote from: Tagora on March 03, 2014, 02:13:50 pm
It's just in the last 50 years or so we've noticed real wars are too costly compared to trade agreements where collusion is profitable.

You really want a world where everyone hate each other but doesnt show it because they want money?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 03, 2014, 02:21:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 03, 2014, 02:13:11 pm
Well, I guess if you live in some really shitty part of Ukraine or Moldova you might want to go to Russia for some marginal improvement. But could just go to some non-fucked up country for the same effort.
if you are good you can find a high paying job even in shitty country, and if you shit then you can only blame the government.
Also much easier to settle in Russia since they do not need to learn languages, but usually they come to work and the family continue to live  in the homeland.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 02:25:07 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 03, 2014, 02:12:10 pm
a year later, the guys with the letters on their backs will write on recruits  :P

but how do you can know you're officer and not a soldier  :P

There is no such thing in Ukrainian army because muslims don't dictate here what to do. Also people used to serve here for 1 year year when it was mandatory. Now you can get into army only by your own will.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 03, 2014, 02:27:30 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 02:25:07 pm
There is no such thing as a Ukrainian army.
fixed for u.  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:29:11 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 03, 2014, 07:19:27 am
It's hard to take your opinion seriously after sth like that:
its different spheres, political and social so its quite incorrect to commpare my views at complitelly different things.

btw ... Falka, Kalp, Kuujus, Molly, Perverz, Zero
especially for you, I will repeat
if you was on the side of even more violent protestors, why you are not on the side of another protesters? maybe cuz you disagree with them? so laws should work different to people with different points of view?
all this shit is happening cuz we've got government changes without agreement from at least half of country's populating... even without ANY respect to their point of view... so why you are using to wonder?
if you think I am wrong at this point, are you sure that you are supporting democracy?

personally to Zero Tolerance(if he will read it), mate, I really wish you to live in your current place but before Lenin. without schools, universitys, any factorys like it was before the revolution. yes, alot of people died cuz of Stalin, true. but thats not all truth, thats only bad part of it and its not that matter if compare it to what ussr made from the wild steppe. thousands got repressed, millions got future and you are the one from those millions same like I am. dont forget about it next time when you blame ussr and stalin in mass repressions.

Dave, Serr, both of you already said that most of people dislike both sides and I do so too. so why you are(Serr) supports the people who dislike  one of sides? is it your personal reason?
I am supporting the hate to the new government because they are trying to play politics in hides of innocent people who are following the high moral principles. this Yanukovitch palace was in ukraine at least... but look at Gorbachev, where he is now? so everything what current government stealing will be transfered to some foreign place.
the difference is only ammount of lie. previos assholes had bad hide.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:28:57 am
the only supporters of Yanukovich were the lowest classes of Ukraine: bums, alcoholics, insane grannies, uneducated youth (bydlo), former and current bandits and as an exclusion - families of people who worked on him.

Maidan wasn't for those nationalists, Maidan was against Yanukovich.  you're nothing more than just a victim of Propaganda.
lol am I victim of propaganda? seems like you are but not me.
when I was 16 I had about the same point of view at working people... but its so stupid to call all working class as bydlo because the workers on factorys usually are much more intellegent and educated than artist for example. same to bums and alcholics because life is not that simple, some of them are living this way because life went that way.
uneducated youth? personally I know more bydlos who are supporting the revolution... probably because its action, and its fun ... and you can hear so sweet words from tribune and you dont need any arguments to make yourself sure. just follow the voice.
also seems you think too good about yourself  :rolleyes:
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:28:57 am
Maidan wasn't for those nationalists, Maidan was against Yanukovich. 
I dont give a **** about against what was it standing. I care about future! well we got new government... and what just has been changed? and what will be changed? peoples blood spilled in vain and the worst thing is the life of millions is going to be broken because of minority. nothing can be built just on the hate to something. maybe something minor like "Wild field" in civil war in russia about 100 years ago but nothing more.

so maybe all the stuff you guys says is truth, but its only one part of it and you shouldnt forget about it if you think that you are right and honest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 02:34:55 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:29:11 pm
so maybe all the stuff you guys says is truth, but its only one part of it and you shouldnt forget about it you think that you are right and honest.

Just one question: Do you justify actions of Russian military troops in Ukraine? If no - what way do we have? Things will sort them out, there will be president elections in May and a new president will make a new government. Current one is temporary and I repeat it once again: not everyone is happy with it (including me), but there is no better option now. The only thing we should be concerned about is our borders now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 02:35:17 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 03, 2014, 02:21:21 pm
if you are good you can find a high paying job even in shitty country, and if you shit then you can only blame the government.
Yes, but why would you want to live in a shitty country...?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:47:07 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 02:34:55 pm
Just one question: Do you justify actions of Russian military troops in Ukraine? If no - what way do we have? Things will sort them out, there will be president elections in May and a new president will make a new government. Current one is temporary and I repeat it once again: not everyone is happy with it (including me), but there is no better option now. The only thing we should be concerned about is our borders now.
there is no good ways in this situation from the start.
I have 2 point of view - my personal and global.
Personally I think stuffs became much worse when russia invaded. hopefully i'll not get in army but I dont want to fight against russians for the ukraine. in same time I am not supporting the russia because I found the europe as much more stable place... but our land will be stable as part of europe not earlier than in 20 years I think.
my global point of view says that "There must be war! God wills it!" because massive parts of country got too different views. it should be changed... and as I already said - its natural when the land of ukraine is not independent.
all what we got to do is waiting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 02:50:03 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 02:01:09 pm
Okay, no need for your propaganda here. Everyone knows that Russia outside Moscow and Petersburg is definitely not a 3rd world country. And teachers/doctors have more than $500 monthly salaries. And also you have the best roads in Europe. Also your government and police is not corrupted at all and it's only rumours that people can even kill others and avoid the prison only by paying money...
Of Course, Dave. Russia has a lot of bad. The wages of workers in Central Russia, Volga region and in the South, mostly less than $ 1,000. It is difficult to live pensioners. Pension 300-350 dollars. Women and professionals «without work experience on a speciality» it is difficult to find a job with decent pay. However, poor doctors I have not seen.
If to speak about Putin. Really hope that we never will get the power of people like Yanukovych, Saakashvili, Gorbachev, Nikolai the second. This is irresponsible, cowardly leaders. Thanks to such a scum much blood has been shed and is yet to be shed. Who of the real leaders of the countries You know? Merkel, Obama and Putin! One of them is respected in all countries? Anybody! However, a more powerful politicians than Putin today - no. This is recognized by all countries and peoples! I ask so don't fuck brains tales. In Russia, Putin has a lot of supporters. And alternative until no one sees. And very few people are looking for. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on March 03, 2014, 02:58:15 pm
The crisis in Crimea could lead the world into a second cold war (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/crimea-crisis-russia-ukraine-cold-war) (the Guardian)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 03, 2014, 03:02:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 03, 2014, 02:12:10 pm
but how do you can know you're officer and not a soldier  :P


Either your translator just wend down or ivani4 came to your place and took over.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 03:08:56 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:47:07 pm
there is no good ways in this situation from the start.
I have 2 point of view - my personal and global.
Personally I think stuffs became much worse when russia invaded. hopefully i'll not get in army but I dont want to fight against russians for the ukraine. in same time I am not supporting the russia because I found the europe as much more stable place... but our land will be stable as part of europe not earlier than in 20 years I think.
my global point of view says that "There must be war! God wills it!" because massive parts of country got too different views. it should be changed... and as I already said - its natural when the land of ukraine is not independent.
all what we got to do is waiting.

What you say is a complete populism and a way to persuade yourself first of all that you don't fear it. Trust me, all the thoughts of brotherhood will get vanished with the very first bullet above your head. As I've said, my ancestors came from Russia, I'm mostly Russian myself and I don't see any brothers among those people who invaded Crimea. I only see invaders who want to take a part of the other country. They are not any better than those Ukrainians who fought for Hitlеr. I clearly understand that those Russian soldiers simply follow orders but they should understand Ukrainian people too. Ukrainians will fight not against Russians but for Ukrainian land. Whether I sound harsh or not, I do believe that the war is the last measure and it's obvious that Russia unofficially declared the war to Ukraine, the only reason why there is still no blood is because of patience of Ukraine and a will to solve it peacfully.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 03, 2014, 03:18:52 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 03, 2014, 02:11:04 pm
Could we refrain from flexing our own countries muscles over the internet? We will have time for that in our very own barracks and behind the front line if shit goes down.

Good idea, especially because my country, Monteblack in spanish, would kick everyone's ass anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 03:22:16 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on March 03, 2014, 02:58:15 pm
The crisis in Crimea could lead the world into a second cold war (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/crimea-crisis-russia-ukraine-cold-war) (the Guardian)
Even the first cold war was not over. The third Reich is almost built. Without the use of tanks in Germany. Young European countries stood in a position of a dog. Barking in the direction of Russia, and as the little dogs hope that they will be given a piece of sugar. And old Europe, while young stands cancer and barks at Russia, fuck these young country in the ass. Tame. Until the even money a bit of give. This «European family». Very logical. «Swedish family», «one girl + two boys». «French family» is «two little boys». In Russia there's a homosexual. But they hold gay parades very culturally and quiet. In the woods, far from settlements. Good boys.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 03:23:08 pm
the only thing that europe needs is to get rid of russian dependancy on natural resources. i wouldn't mind to pay more for gas, i'd gladly stop visa negotiations between russia and eu, block russian bank accounts etc...

but i think this opinion is marginal especially in the west. people there just don't have any direct experience with how russians deal with other nations. we will hear some scary-like shit-talks from politicians and the whole thing will end up the same way as in osetia. because money wins right now in eu above anything else.

also ukrainians don't look like they really would like to protect their integrity by force so why would anyone care to much anyways, maybe they don't have the balls or they know nobody would help them or they kinda feel crimea is not really "theirs" that much? well sad story is nobody would care even if they'd fight, i could buy them a few kalashnikovs but wouldn't risk my neck too. i thought putin won't go to crimea by force because he won't risk armed conflict, but i was wrong in the second part. there just won't be any armed conflict happening.

aye at least i will go to cinema tomorrow and to play football the day after tomorrow. also the weather is getting really great here in europe, so maybe i will go to archery class instead. i'm getting good, maybe i might make it in the future even to some olympic games, probably in russia...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 03:24:33 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 03:22:16 pm
Even the first cold war was not over. The third Reich is almost built. Without the use of tanks in Germany. Young European countries stood in a position of a dog. Barking in the direction of Russia, and as the little dogs hope that they will be given a piece of sugar. And old Europe, while young stands cancer and barks at Russia, fuck these young country in the ass. Tame. Until the even money a bit of give. This «European family». Very logical. «Swedish family», «one girl + two boys». «French family» is «two little boys». In Russia there's a homosexual. But they hold gay parades very culturally and quiet. In the woods, far from settlements. Good boys.

Russian family - 2 alcoholics and a gamin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 03, 2014, 03:27:52 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 03:08:56 pm
[...]Whether I sound harsh or not, I do believe that the war is the last measure and it's obvious that Russia unofficially declared the war to Ukraine, the only reason why there is still no blood is because of patience of Ukraine and a will to solve it peacfully.
This, I guess.
It more or less depends on the decisions made by the Ukranians now. Putin won't move his troops in the near future. At least not before March 30th when this referendum is going to vote.
I dunno if the current Ukranian government is willing to make it a military conflict or not - I lack the insight... but there is barely any doubt that they are the ones to possibly pull the trigger right now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 03, 2014, 03:29:47 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 03:24:33 pm
Russian family - 2 alcoholics and a gamin.
Really funny. :lol: But this, again, is not true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 03:38:06 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2014, 03:27:52 pm
This, I guess.
It more or less depends on the decisions made by the Ukranians now. Putin won't move his troops in the near future. At least not before March 30th when this referendum is going to vote.
I dunno if the current Ukranian government is willing to make it a military conflict or not - I lack the insight... but there is barely any doubt that they are the ones to possibly pull the trigger right now.

ukrainians fucked up in the moment when they didn't move their troops to crimea's strategic points before putin did. aye it would take big balls and fast decisions but it probably was the only way how to "save" crimea for them without any bigger bloodshed. i think now its over unless thousands die. and we all know how referendum voting will end up with russian soldiers controlling the elections.

edit: but i still feel ukrainians on the west kinda consider crimea not being their/current ukrainian territory that much. like can you imagine what would happen if the same situation would happen in kiev (which a bit happened) - regular people were dying in the streets. in crimea: nothing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 03:40:06 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 03:08:56 pm
the only reason why there is still no blood is because of patience of Ukraine and a will to solve it peacfully.
Let's not kid ourselves. It's not because Ukraine is patient, it's because Ukraine is scared shitless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 03:40:17 pm
You're a fucking retard Ivani. The closest thing to the third reich around is your fascist shit country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 03, 2014, 03:49:22 pm

The defected rear admiral  Berezovsky trying (unsuccessfully) to persuade other Ukrainian naval officers to defect with him. He gets denounced as a traitor instead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 03, 2014, 03:53:34 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 03:40:17 pm
You're a fucking retard Ivani. The closest thing to the third reich around is your fascist shit country.

Calling other people names and trying to degrade other countries is fascism aswell...


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 04:01:09 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 03, 2014, 03:53:34 pm
Calling other people names and trying to degrade other countries is fascism aswell...

No, it isn't.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 03, 2014, 04:01:30 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 03:08:56 pm
Whether I sound harsh or not, I do believe that the war is the last measure and it's obvious that Russia unofficially declared the war to Ukraine, the only reason why there is still no blood is because of patience of Ukraine and a will to solve it peacfully.

Ukraine peaceful patient wise guys  :o and Russia cold bloodthirsty bastards   :twisted:  are you serious dave?  pls I dont want to sound harsh but your comments are growing even more brainwashed than those you accuse of brainwashing  :P


Ukraine is on standstill not because of a morale high ground, but because they are waiting for external help because they know they would get crushed like Georgia if they are alone in the war against Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 04:05:01 pm
A good comment on that video for the morons who don't seem to understand what fascism means:

 
Quote
Ideology of fascism was invented in Italy in XX century.
It is based on the following foundations
1 - Militarism (Strong Army)
2 - Cult of personality (One Leader)
3 - Expansionism (Unify and protect "our" territories)
4 - Rule of corporations as opposed to parliamentary democracy as a rule of parties.
5 - Totalitarianism (Strong vertical of Power)

Now guess what country in 21 century has all of it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 04:11:25 pm
"The way to a better life" by Armpit Sweat:
 
If hard times come to your country, if there are even harder times ahead - don't start a revolution! Smack yourself on the cheeks few good times, think of every revolution that ever been - and smack yourself once more, afterwards, pull yourself together and go to work, or try to find one! Work honestly, respect other people, pay your taxes, never put your hopes in anyone/anything but yourself, and enjoy life - teach your kids to do the same. If anyone tells you what's best for everyone - never talk to that person again. If you get an idea about what's best for everyone - look at yourself in the mirror, point finger and laugh, then smack yourself on the cheek and go to work. The end.

------------
 
Damn, i sound so boring and preachy :( This thread is a real fun-killer..
I know, i know, there are always "bad guys" out there, who are the reason for all of your troubles :) And so it goes round and round...
 
I really wish you all the best guys, both in Ukraine, Russia and the rest of the World. Do something pleasant for yourself today guys! Why not today?! Something that will make your soul warm...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 04:20:51 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 04:11:25 pm
"The way to a better life" by Armpit Sweat:
 
If hard times come to your country, if there are even harder times ahead - don't start a revolution! Smack yourself on the cheeks few good times, think of every revolution that ever been - and smack yourself once more, afterwards, pull yourself together and go to work, or try to find one! Work honestly, respect other people, pay your taxes, never put your hopes in anyone/anything but yourself, and enjoy life - teach your kids to do the same. If anyone tells you what's best for everyone - never talk to that person again. If you get an idea about what's best for everyone - look at yourself in the mirror, point finger and laugh, then smack yourself on the cheek and go to work. The end.

------------
 
Damn, i sound so boring and preachy :( This thread is a real fun-killer..
I know, i know, there are always "bad guys" out there, who are the reason for all of your troubles :) And so it goes round and round...
 
I really wish you all the best guys, both in Ukraine, Russia and the rest of the World. Do something pleasant for yourself today guys! Why not today?! Something that will make your soul warm...

aye like go to play football together lol jesus crist...

btw revolution in my country is the reason why i can write on the internet, why i can travel abroad and why i can say (almost) whatever i want without finishing in jail. also its the reason why we got some land back that was stolen from us 60 years ago (not the money though). aye i should have smacked my parents in the cheeks instead for taking part in that omg...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 03, 2014, 04:21:15 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 04:05:01 pm
A good comment on that video for the morons who don't seem to understand what fascism means:

This definition lacks many things. First, you need to have an ideology that is "official ideology", taught in schools, at work and being the only one allowed in the country. Second, you need to have citizens living in fear of secret services, being affraid to speak their mind, or bad things would happen to them. Complete control over media also falls under this one. Then, you need to have common enemy, one hated by majority of population, such as Jews, communists, black people, Arabs, immigrants, take your pick. These people would usually be blamed for everything that's wrong with the country. For example, you don't have this shit in Russia, but it exists, in part, in France. Then, you would need to have completley non-democratic and useless elections, where you would have shootings of political rivals, beating up of masses at political rallies.

Anyway, I disagree that Russia today is facsist country. I believe that it would fall under "authoritarian" countries in sociological classification, but definately not fascist or totalitarian (fascism being one of the forms of totalitarion regimes).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 04:22:42 pm
The personal, as everyone's so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm you or those you care about, take it personally. Get angry. The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs, hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the creatures of power slide out from under with a wink and a grin. If you want justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it personal. Do as much damage as you can. Get your message across. That way you stand a far better chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered dangerous, marks the difference – the only difference in their eyes – between players and little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement, your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it's just business, it's politics, it's the way of the world, it's a tough life, and that it's nothing personal. Well, fuck them. Make it personal.


Words to live by, from an individual to a country.  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 03, 2014, 04:23:47 pm
I don't want a 2nd Cold War. I want a 3rd World War.

LETS DO THIS SHIT!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 03, 2014, 04:29:45 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 03, 2014, 04:23:47 pm
I don't want a 2nd Cold War. I want a 3rd World War.

LETS DO THIS SHIT!

Only if it happens at your doorstep, enjoy it then
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Ikarus on March 03, 2014, 04:43:22 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 03, 2014, 04:23:47 pm
I don't want a 2nd Cold War. I want a 3rd World War.
LETS DO THIS SHIT!
we got video games for that, it´s like war, but you can turn it on and off and nobody actually gets killed

modern times, huzzah

anyways, I still hope for some kind of miracle in Ukraine, it´s really getting bad now :/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 03, 2014, 04:44:25 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 03, 2014, 03:53:34 pm
Calling other people names and trying to degrade other countries is fascism aswell...
Did you just called yourself a chocolate chip cookie?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 04:45:14 pm
Quote from: Osiris on March 03, 2014, 01:11:38 pm
I just find it funny that we (UK and USA) go around the world invading countries on trumped up pretexts like WMDs and protecting ourselves then we come out with stuff like this
When that's exactly what we have been doing :D

But not in Europe :) And noone cares about middle east, africa and the rest of the world, as long as you don't fuck shit up in europe you're fine in our eyes :P

Quote from: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 03:40:17 pm
You're a fucking retard Ivani. The closest thing to the third reich around is your fascist shit country.

It's hard not to agree with Oberyn :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 05:04:52 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 03, 2014, 03:40:17 pm
You're a fucking retard Ivani. The closest thing to the third reich around is your fascist shit country.
the way how democractive conversation is going... and the main thing is to respect other people, their rights and preferences... like gays, like tolerance to other races and nations... like nationalists in ukraine...
most of you are just contradicting yourself... dont you see?
(click to show/hide)

Dave, did I call russians as ukrainian brothers? you read much more than I actually wrote.  I just wrote that I dont want to fight for country I hate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 03, 2014, 05:05:48 pm
Quote from: enigmatic_stranger on March 03, 2014, 04:44:25 pm
Did you just called yourself a chocolate chip cookie?
Don't mind Panos. His mind is so blown up by now, he contradicts himself in every 2nd post. Just lean back and enjoy the show :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 05:07:51 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 05:04:52 pm
the way how democractive conversation is going... and the main thing is to respect other people, their rights and preferences... like gays, like tolerance to other races and nations... like nationalists in ukraine...
most of you are just contradicting yourself... dont you see?
Yes, Oberyn. You're just as bad as the evil men in Ukraine because you post on forums like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 03, 2014, 05:27:37 pm
Quote from: enigmatic_stranger on March 03, 2014, 04:44:25 pm
Did you just called yourself a chocolate chip cookie?

Who said I wrote that as a bad thing  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 05:53:18 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 03, 2014, 04:01:30 pm
Ukraine peaceful patient wise guys  :o and Russia cold bloodthirsty bastards   :twisted:  are you serious dave?  pls I dont want to sound harsh but your comments are growing even more brainwashed than those you accuse of brainwashing  :P


Ukraine is on standstill not because of a morale high ground, but because they are waiting for external help because they know they would get crushed like Georgia if they are alone in the war against Russia.

You're right only particularly, Ukraine doesn't want to engage into a fight without support because it will lead to huge loses. Although to win a war against Ukraine Russia should actually use its all military forces which is impossible. The thing is that there will be no war and Russia only tries to escalate the situation. Trust me, you don't sound not brainwashed either as you only more or less support/justify the Russian side in all your posts in this thread. The only difference is that you live miles away and I live here in the centre of actions.

Anyway, how would you call a country that wants to annex the part of its neighbour and intrude it with military forces? How is it any different than Hitlеr's?

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 05:04:52 pm
Dave, did I call russians as ukrainian brothers? you read much more than I actually wrote.  I just wrote that I dont want to fight for country I hate.

So you've basically just confessed that you hate Ukraine. You know, you can hate government, you can hate politics but hating your own country? How dare you asking for your opinion to get attention in the country which you hate then? That actually proves it even more that you're typical "bydlo" - low-educated guy who hates his own country and I wouldn't be even surprised if you can't connect 2 words in Ukrainian. Or am I wrong and just made a reckless announcement about you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 03, 2014, 05:59:50 pm
Seeing the Russian threat getting bigger day by day, the French decided to take action.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 03, 2014, 06:00:37 pm
Russia gives Ukrainian forces in Crimea ultimatum to surrender - Interfax (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/uk-ukraine-crisis-ultimatum-idUKBREA221AI20140303)

Quote from: Reuters
Russia's Black Sea Fleet has told Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender by 5 a.m. (0300 GMT) on Tuesday or face a military assault, Interfax news agency quoted a source in the Ukrainian Defence Ministry as saying.

The ultimatum, Interfax said, was issued by Alexander Vitko, the fleet's commander.

The ministry did not immediately confirm the report and there was no immediate comment by the Black Sea Fleet, which has a base in Crimea, where Russian forces are in control.

"If they do not surrender before 5 a.m. tomorrow, a real assault will be started against units and divisions of the armed forces across Crimea," the agency quoted the ministry source as saying.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 03, 2014, 06:10:09 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 05:04:52 pm
the way how democractive conversation is going... and the main thing is to respect other people, their rights and preferences... like gays, like tolerance to other races and nations... like nationalists in ukraine...
most of you are just contradicting yourself... dont you see?
(click to show/hide)
<...>

You are QUITE a rebel in rUSSIA to presume, that there is someone willing to SPEAK to and someone deserving RESPECT in government of rUSSIA right now. I would say fuck you and fuck your pathetic wish to be treated with respect, when your own country does not deserve this.

West-brain-washed at least have the courage to be self-critical, while propaganda machine in rUSSIA does not allow for such fallacies, because you just CAN'T be wrong, aye?

So fuck your "democratic" talking. Oh... sorry, its actually already fucked, I must have missed that somehow...

Get out of Ukraine, get out of Georgia, allow for free referendum in Chechnya, THEN come talking and presuming, that you actually have some place at the table where people with mutual respect speak.

UNFORTUNATELY, there is a serious lack of people in western government, who understand the simple truth, that rUSSIA can't be spoken to in civilized fashion. After all - if I did not know differently - I would say that "a word and a gun is much more powerful than only a word" phrase came right out of pUTLER's handbook of phrases to live by.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 06:14:05 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 04:20:51 pm
aye like go to play football together lol jesus crist...

btw revolution in my country is the reason why i can write on the internet, why i can travel abroad and why i can say (almost) whatever i want without finishing in jail. also its the reason why we got some land back that was stolen from us 60 years ago (not the money though). aye i should have smacked my parents in the cheeks instead for taking part in that omg...

And where are you from, good friend? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 03, 2014, 06:14:08 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on March 03, 2014, 04:43:22 pm
we got video games for that, it´s like war, but you can turn it on and off and nobody actually gets killed

modern times, huzzah

anyways, I still hope for some kind of miracle in Ukraine, it´s really getting bad now :/

But it's nooby non-hardcore mode. Also gotta thin out the population in the world a bit.

Quote from: Nessaj on March 03, 2014, 06:00:37 pm
Russia gives Ukrainian forces in Crimea ultimatum to surrender - Interfax (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/uk-ukraine-crisis-ultimatum-idUKBREA221AI20140303)


Surprised you're not using that Kremlin run news site RT anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 03, 2014, 06:18:02 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 03, 2014, 06:10:09 pm
You are QUITE a rebel in rUSSIA to presume, that there is someone willing to SPEAK to and someone deserving RESPECT in government of rUSSIA right now. I would say fuck you and fuck your pathetic wish to be treated with respect, when your own country does not deserve this.

West-brain-washed at least have the courage to be self-critical, while propaganda machine in rUSSIA does not allow for such fallacies, because you just CAN'T be wrong, aye?

So fuck your "democratic" talking. Oh... sorry, its actually already fucked, I must have missed that somehow...

Get out of Ukraine, get out of Georgia, allow for free referendum in Chechnya, THEN come talking and presuming, that you actually have some place at the table where people with mutual respect speak.

UNFORTUNATELY, there is a serious lack of people in western government, who understand the simple truth, that rUSSIA can't be spoken to in civilized fashion. After all - if I did not know differently - I would say that "a word and a gun is much more powerful than only a word" phrase came right out of pUTLER's handbook of phrases to live by.

I can see you would make quite the diplomat AGReE WiTH mEEE oR iLL sCREAM aT you wiTH cAPS
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 06:29:20 pm
Dave, how big a percentage do you think the pro-Russian population is? 15%? 30%?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 06:30:31 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 06:14:05 pm
And where are you from, good friend? :)

czech republic and i'm not your good friend.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 03, 2014, 06:34:09 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 06:30:31 pm
czech republic and i'm not your good friend.
rude :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 06:47:22 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 04:11:25 pm
"The way to a better life" by Armpit Sweat:
 
If hard times come to your country, if there are even harder times ahead - don't start a revolution! Smack yourself on the cheeks few good times, think of every revolution that ever been - and smack yourself once more, afterwards, pull yourself together and go to work, or try to find one! Work honestly, respect other people, pay your taxes, never put your hopes in anyone/anything but yourself, and enjoy life - teach your kids to do the same. If anyone tells you what's best for everyone - never talk to that person again. If you get an idea about what's best for everyone - look at yourself in the mirror, point finger and laugh, then smack yourself on the cheek and go to work. The end.

Sowwy Armpit, but it's fucking stupid what you said. With this way of thinking we would be stuck with slavery, class division and all fucked up things from the past til the end of time, cause there would be noone to destroy Bastille  :wink: And in such circumstances it would be hard to "enjoy life". That's why I really appreciate the sacrifice of all people who stand up and fight against tyranny (lol, I sound like Panos  :P) Keep your head down, avoid getting into trouble and enjoy the life is good motto for peaceful times and wealthy countries, but from time to time humanity needs heroes  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 06:48:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 03, 2014, 06:29:20 pm
Dave, how big a percentage do you think the pro-Russian population is? 15%? 30%?

What do you mean pro-Russian? It's all complicated, especially now. This is only my opinion and should not be used as correct numbers. I guess that those who want to be closer to Russia than EU are something about 30% (mostly eastern), those who want to be a part of Russia maybe 3-5% and only because of Crimea and nearby regions (also not the whole Crimea wants to become a part of Russia, I guess it's somewhere a little bit below a half), those who will be ready to fight for Russians - less than 0.1% (it's still quite a lot). Russian population in Ukraine is somewhere around 17% according to wiki (I believe they're much more because there are a lot of people who are like me - Ukrainians on papers being half or more Russians)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 03, 2014, 06:49:21 pm
Lenin returns! East dudes reistablished one of statues:
(click to show/hide)

G87:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 03, 2014, 06:53:43 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 03, 2014, 06:29:20 pm
Dave, how big a percentage do you think the pro-Russian population is? 15%? 30%?

140%
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 03, 2014, 07:18:36 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 06:30:31 pm
czech republic and i'm not your good friend.

shut your mouth punk
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 03, 2014, 07:31:19 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 05:53:18 pm
Trust me, you don't sound not brainwashed either as you only more or less support/justify the Russian side in all your posts in this thread.

Like Berenger, you didnt read all my posts it seems  :P  If everyone was saying Russia is good and Europe is bad, I would say no its not true because XY, the few times someone say something "pro-russian" it is promptly countered  (with more or less skill and patience...) so I didnt have to intervene, but sometimes I also take part in "pro-ukraine" posting, as long as its closer to the truth I believe in I will say it. Please believe I have no chip on either side, and like you said:


Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 05:53:18 pm
The only difference is that you live miles away and I live here in the centre of actions.


It has the disadvantages to have distant and sometimes unreliable informations, but also the advantage to stay neutral and calm as long as I choose to.
The closer you are to the action, the more prone you are to become narrowminded.


For some this topic is a good opportunity just to debate and learn, but I understand that those that have their lives at stakes dont see it like that.
But anyway lets put some distance between posters and continue talking about the matter at hand, if anyone still want.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 07:34:09 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 06:30:31 pm
czech republic and i'm not your good friend.

So you have internet and can "go abroad" because your parents made a revolution? :)

"The separation occurred without violence, and was thus said to be "velvet", much like the "Velvet revolution" which preceded it, which was accomplished through massive peaceful demonstrations and actions."

It's not a revolution i was talking about. Ask someone from Yugoslavia, how fun it was to revolt and "travel abroad" afterwards. Or now, in Syria, they are building a bright future revolting the shit out of the country. And I myself, remember how it was in 90's Russia - fuck that shit, even though it wasn't even a proper revolution in Russia!
Why am I even wasting time on you, Czech?

Quote from: Falka on March 03, 2014, 06:47:22 pm
Sowwy Armpit, but it's fucking stupid what you said. With this way of thinking we would be stuck with slavery, class division and all fucked up things from the past til the end of time, cause there would be noone to destroy Bastille  :wink: And in such circumstances it would be hard to "enjoy life". That's why I really appreciate the sacrifice of all people who stand up and fight against tyranny (lol, I sound like Panos  :P) Keep your head down, avoid getting into trouble and enjoy the life is good motto for peaceful times and wealthy countries, but from time to time humanity needs heroes  8-)
   
Sowwy Falka, but you sound like a high school senior, who just heard about Che. Just enjoy movies like "Hunger Games" and "Hunger Games 2" - they speak on your level of comprehension. :)


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 03, 2014, 07:45:15 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 07:34:09 pm
Sowwy Falka, but you sound like a high school senior, who just heard about Che. Just enjoy movies like "Hunger Games" and "Hunger Games 2" - they speak on your level of comprehension. :)

Falka, you just got #REKT
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 07:56:02 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 07:34:09 pm
Sowwy Falka, but you sound like a high school senior, who just heard about Che. Just enjoy movies like "Hunger Games" and "Hunger Games 2" - they speak on your level of comprehension. :)

Meh, I'm disappointed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 03, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:08:23 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 03, 2014, 07:31:19 pm
It has the disadvantages to have distant and sometimes unreliable informations, but also the advantage to stay neutral and calm as long as I choose to.
The closer you are to the action, the more prone you are to become narrowminded.

For some this topic is a good opportunity just to debate and learn, but I understand that those that have their lives at stakes dont see it like that.
But anyway lets put some distance between posters and continue talking about the matter at hand, if anyone still want.

Oh Butan, my French friend, there are some obvious things to me and other people that are not really obvious to foreigners. One obvious thing is that Russians made an ultimatum to Crimean military forces of Ukraine(don't know if bluffing once again or not): To drop all weapons and desert due to 5 a.m. or they will make them do this with force. Crimea must be going under water already because of steel balls of Ukrainian military forces there surrounded by thousands of Russians. Also I think that it's a kind of betrayal from Kiev because they let Russians make such things real. Russians came there to make "peace" and save other Russians. Guess whom are they threatening there? Correct, Russians. Because most of those military forces of Ukraine in Crimea are Russians and they even speak Russian during military service.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 03, 2014, 08:10:22 pm
I've heard about Ukrainian hungarians from the western Kárpátalja escaping to us because of the general mobilization or something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 03, 2014, 08:12:54 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on March 03, 2014, 06:00:37 pm
Russia gives Ukrainian forces in Crimea ultimatum to surrender - Interfax (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/uk-ukraine-crisis-ultimatum-idUKBREA221AI20140303)
Fake.

Quote
West-brain-washed at least have the courage to be self-critical
lol



(click to show/hide)


 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 03, 2014, 08:26:51 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 08:31:01 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 03, 2014, 08:12:54 pm
Fake.
lol



(click to show/hide)

well fake... its just testing how far you can go. some "lower military official/politician/general whoever..." makes unofficial statement and then those behind the scene just observe how do the things develop. if they develop in a fucked up way the real officials can always retract the statement. its typical way of testing your opponents. in politics its happening on daily basis all around the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 08:34:33 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 07:34:09 pm
So you have internet and can "go abroad" because your parents made a revolution? :)

sry that i can't discuss with you anymore since reasonable discussion need at least two people that both have a working brain...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 08:43:04 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 08:34:33 pm
sry that i can't discuss with you anymore since reasonable discussion need at least two people that both have a working brain...

Sorry for your handicap Chezh :wink: take care
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 03, 2014, 08:45:33 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 07:34:09 pm
Sowwy Falka, but you sound like a high school senior, who just heard about Che. Just enjoy movies like "Hunger Games" and "Hunger Games 2" - they speak on your level of comprehension. :)
Falka is right, if everyone was as docile and cowardly as you this world would be much more of a shithole. Instead of ridiculing this mentality you might want to be grateful that at least some people were willing to make sacrifices for things that benefitted more people than themselves.

Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 03, 2014, 08:26:51 pm
(click to show/hide)
Should've portrayed a Polish cavalry charge.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 08:46:40 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 03, 2014, 08:26:51 pm
(click to show/hide)

Translation for those who don't know polish (last pic): fuck off, kurwa, russia is a cock, gay, shit! :P

I think that as a repercussion Grey order should immediately banish all russian members from their ranks, dissolve alliance with Druzhina and attack them on the spot. In the face of such sanctions I have no doubt that Putin would cancel all military activities and withdraw all forces from Crimea :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 08:47:30 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 03, 2014, 08:45:33 pm
Should've portrayed a Polish cavalry charge.

Quote from: Falka on February 22, 2014, 10:20:21 pm
Ukraine was ours once and now it will be again! Our all 3 tanks (old german Leopards nota bene) are waiting on the border, ready to enter :P


:P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2014, 08:48:24 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 03, 2014, 08:31:01 pm
well fake... its just testing how far you can go. some "lower military official/politician/general whoever..." makes unofficial statement and then those behind the scene just observe how do the things develop. if they develop in a fucked up way the real officials can always retract the statement. its typical way of testing your opponents. in politics its happening on daily basis all around the world.
Russians do this a lot. They have some of their military representatives make threatening statements, then they "officially" deny it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 09:15:12 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 03, 2014, 08:45:33 pm
Falka is right, if everyone was as docile and cowardly as you this world would be much more of a shithole. Instead of ridiculing this mentality you might want to be grateful that at least some people were willing to make sacrifices for things that benefitted more people than themselves.
   
You mistake bravery with fanatism and lust for destruction. You confuse self-sacrifice that takes place on daily basis, by countless people of different professions, with violent monkey-rage outbursts, that destroy what was build by decades of hard work of millions! I ridicule this retarded propaganda of "freedom" so many of you are so full of.
 
Did I ever say i ridicule those who died in a war? Did I ever say i ridicule those who died in a field of science or exploration? Don't present it as i was implying it. Because I remember writing "revolution" clearly. 
 
Where are you from, Theeth, since you know so much about bravery and good of revolutions? Are you not from UK?..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 03, 2014, 09:32:13 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 02:29:11 pm
(click to show/hide)
[/spoiler]

About more violent protesters - 11 policemens died, about 100 protesters died. If just take a look on this numbers, who are fucking more violent? I dont even tell you how many ppl were mising and how many were wounded.

No shools and universities before Lenin - it`s just lol dude, shools and universities were all along the Ukraine begining from the 16 century.For example Kiev - Mohyla Academy established in 1632 was the high respected in Europe and so on. But then came ppl from the east and start to close and ruin shools, academies, universities, take a guess who were that ppl.

About minoririty -  association with EU was supported about 50% of ppl yes true. But absolutely MAJORITY of ppl wanted to change Yanukovichs goverment after his fail when he violent dispersed peacefull demonstration.

And the video for you, how ppl from eastern Ukraine change their opinions when they themselves visited maidan. They just see there are no armed terrorists, no ppl who angry on russian language, no ppl who want invade Crimea and kill all russians) It`s hard to see what pro russian media do with ppl. And about RIGHT SECTOR, they are just small group of radicals which have not power in the goverment. And you should go to Maidan and just to see all the stuff. I can buy a ticket for you )))
(click to show/hide)


And yes you are right we dont need to argue about the past but think about the future.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tendalor on March 03, 2014, 09:35:14 pm
Is it true that a few thousand Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea already layed down their weapons?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 09:54:18 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 09:15:12 pm
You mistake bravery with fanatism and lust for destruction. You confuse self-sacrifice that takes place on daily basis, by countless people of different professions, with violent monkey-rage outbursts, that destroy what was build by decades of hard work of millions! I ridicule this retarded propaganda of "freedom" so many of you are so full of.

Ssometimes new better world can be built only on the ashes of the old world, old order has to be destroyed before mankind will do next step in the future :P Sacrifice of one generation lets their descendants live in better world. Propaganda of freedom which you try to ridicule overthrown communism in 1989, without people who were willing to went out in the streets and destroy the Berlin wall there would still be cold war and USSR ruling over east europe. King Louis had to be killed on gillotine before Declaration of human rights could be written :P

Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 09:15:12 pm
Where are you from, Theeth, since you know so much about bravery and good of revolutions? Are you not from UK?..
And why does it matter according to you? I'm from POland and I think that my contrymen in the past knew quite a lot about bravery and how to do stupid rebellions and how to attack tanks with sabres :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 03, 2014, 10:51:41 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 03, 2014, 09:54:18 pm
And why does it matter according to you? I'm from POland and I think that my contrymen in the past knew quite a lot about bravery and how to do stupid rebellions and how to attack tanks with sabres :P

If you were from Egypt, Syria or at least Ukraine, i would not argue the way i do. At least your would have known by now, if it was good or not for you, personally. But i just find it hard to argue with someone young from UK or Sweden - peaceful places, who only know of poverty from TV...

This Ukraine situation is upsetting me, and most of cRPG players are hardcore freedom fighters, not a bunch of nerdy adolescent dreamers as i previously thought. So i will go back to working my shitty job, and let you do the important stuff. If it wasn't for today's newspapers, i would not get emotional enough to post here :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 11:08:38 pm
to Dave
(click to show/hide)

to Zero
(click to show/hide)

to everyone who think that he is right - welcome to ukraine, I really want you to live in the country which it will be. ah you probably dont want... this country is weaker than your motherland... so take care about your own life and dont talk a shit about things that you complitelly dont know and which are none of your business. at some point the blood of the people who was killed is on your hands too. without your support demonstrators shouldnt be as impudent as they was and it shouldnt went that far as it just went.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 03, 2014, 11:19:06 pm

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/16644428-sarah-palin-taunts-critics-for-mocking-her-2008-ukraine-invasion-prediction

back in 2008 during the election campaign Sarah Palin was ridiculed by democrats for making this bold statement against Obama wanting to improve relations with Russia and essentially lifting a lot of the restrictions placed upon them over the Georgian invasion.  Now 6 years later, i lol, because she was right all this time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 11:27:22 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 11:08:38 pm
and the fine quote for all this situation
Quote
All the evils of this world comes from thinking. When people who are not capable to think are doing it.
A.Sapkowski, "Narrenturm"

said by Zawisza the Black from Garbów, the Black Knight  :wink: I don't agree with almost everything what you say, but I have to appreciate your choice of lecture :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 11:34:57 pm
Falka, as member of Grey Order - I know, its pointless to do anything for changing the political mind of polish citizen  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 03, 2014, 11:39:15 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 03, 2014, 09:54:18 pm
And why does it matter according to you? I'm from POland and I think that my contrymen in the past knew quite a lot about bravery and how to do stupid rebellions and how to attack tanks with sabres :P

Now you sound like Panos, ancestors of my ancestors did that yadda yadda. Who cares, you werent there. Therefore you do not know how it happened exactly.

I just hope this will end without war. Everyone who wishes war to happen is an idiot or mean, evil human being. Ukraine is approached by two sides and both act "friendly", each in its own way. But the truth is, neither wants to help Ukraine. Just defending their geopolitical interests. EU wants to control Ukraine, because that means controlling part of oil and gas transport. Russia wants the same and to keep NATO out of Ukraine. Both EU and Russia are enemy of Ukraine atm, just like Yanukovich and those new guys posing as saviors of Ukraine. Nothing good will happen to people of Ukraine. Under those circumstances, avoiding war is like winning.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 03, 2014, 11:47:49 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 03, 2014, 11:39:15 pm
Now you sound like Panos, ancestors of my ancestors did that yadda yadda. Who cares, you werent there.

But I don't care either and I'm very far from being proud or whatever because of what my countryman did in the past, especially that I'm sure that if I were in their place I wouldn't do that. I said it just in response to Armpit's questions about nationality of Beaucheamp and Teeth.

Quote from: Leshma on March 03, 2014, 11:39:15 pm
EU wants to control Ukraine, because that means controlling part of oil and gas transport.

Dunno about whole EU, but poland is just afraid of russia and wants to keep them as far from our borders as possible, no one cares about gas transport cause almost all our gas we take from russia anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 03, 2014, 11:51:14 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 03, 2014, 08:26:51 pm
(click to show/hide)

Poor Russians...their hacking can't compete against the millions of CD keys.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 12:17:25 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 03, 2014, 11:08:38 pm
to Dave
(click to show/hide)

to Zero
(click to show/hide)

to everyone who think that he is right - welcome to ukraine, I really want you to live in the country which it will be. ah you probably dont want... this country is weaker than your motherland... so take care about your own life and dont talk a shit about things that you complitelly dont know and which are none of your business. at some point the blood of the people who was killed is on your hands too. without your support demonstrators shouldnt be as impudent as they was and it shouldnt went that far as it just went.

Honestly, you should work on your texts. I've just wasted a bunch of time reading a completely useless unrelated stuff, but okay. It would be unfair if I didn't read it at least. To make it short: You live in Ukraine, you hate Ukraine, you hate democracy, you think Ukraine shouldn't exist in its current borders, UkrSSR stronk. Well... I'll try to make it short (though I'll fail and trust me I didn't even want to discuss it as there is no way to have a conversation with a person with such statements, you demand to respect your opinion but you don't make your opinion bypass simple logic before announcing it.)

1. About unrelated stuff and psychology of choices. I've stated here multiple times (I can't even count how many) that not everyone is happy with current government (including me, I personally dislike it), that there is no ideal choice at all: whatever you do now - people will be unhappy.
2. About democracy being bad. I strictly disagree, don't even want to discuss it. You would get to Gulag for your words.
3. About Ukraine being fiction. Following your logic: how can UNR (Ukrainian National Republic) that existed 3 (yes, three) years that declared independence from Russian Empire be more related to Ukraine than UkrSSR? With the same logic I can claim that Moscow should be a part of Ukraine as it got founded by lords of Kiev Rus, but I don't do it. Why? Because it would be extremely stupid. Current Ukrainian borders are ratified by the whole world (including Russia).
4. About Crimea not being Ukrainian. If it's not Ukrainian - it's definitely not Russian then. Crimea was Russian during 170 years (1783-1954) and was never Russian before and hopefully doesn't become in future.
5. About corruption in Ukraine. Yes, Ukraine was corrupted (99th place with previous president in 2006) in the past but it became corrupted even more with Yanukovich becoming probably the most (144th place in 2013, the highest corruption rating for Ukraine so far). You want to get rid of corruption and decide to become a part of guess what country? Tip: this country shares 127th place in 2013 corruption antirating with Pakistan, Nicaragua, Gambia, Lebanon, Mali, Comoros and Azerbaijan. No idea? Oh, it's Russian Federation, how unexpected.
6. About quote that you hate the government but love the country. That's just obvious hypocrisy. 5 minutes ago you confessed that you hate your country, also what should I say if you don't even accept Ukraine as a country calling it fiction?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 04, 2014, 01:02:56 am
Teeth, Falka, you shouldn't forget that Armpit is older than a dinosaur by cRPG standards. Of course he values stability more than you do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on March 04, 2014, 01:09:29 am
This whole thread is interesting cause it shows personal political preferences and how they depend on where each and every one of us is from.

We Poles live our history, we are immersed in it, we tend not to forget the past. And as much as I agree with DarkBlade - its pointless to do anything to change the political mind of Polish citizen - I do not think there is a large sentiment in Poland to reverse this past. Majority of people I know - at least these born in old commie times - are just happy that we lucky to live during the longest period without war in the history of Poland.  Because war always means devastation, death and losses. And that is why I personally do worry about events on Ukraine, aside from my personal political likes and dislikes.   

And let's make it straight - it has absolutely nothing to do with Greys. Greys are fighting for Elberl these days. It is just sad that vast majority of Ukrainian guys disappeared from TS. And I hope they will be back soon.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 04, 2014, 01:36:18 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 03, 2014, 11:39:15 pm
Under those circumstances, avoiding war is like winning.

I can think of very few circumstances when avoiding war is not winning. War is horrible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 04, 2014, 02:39:11 am
Quote from: BlindGuy on March 04, 2014, 01:36:18 am
I can think of very few circumstances when avoiding war is not winning. War is horrible.

An unjust peace is better than a just war.




(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SugarHoe on March 04, 2014, 03:14:06 am
OMG AMERICA VS RUSSIA THIS IS JUST LIKE COD ALL OVER AGAIN.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2014, 07:15:48 am
It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 07:29:54 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2014, 08:08:23 pm
Oh Butan, my French friend, there are some obvious things to me and other people that are not really obvious to foreigners. One obvious thing is that Russians made an ultimatum to Crimean military forces of Ukraine(don't know if bluffing once again or not): To drop all weapons and desert due to 5 a.m. or they will make them do this with force. Crimea must be going under water already because of steel balls of Ukrainian military forces there surrounded by thousands of Russians. Also I think that it's a kind of betrayal from Kiev because they let Russians make such things real. Russians came there to make "peace" and save other Russians. Guess whom are they threatening there? Correct, Russians. Because most of those military forces of Ukraine in Crimea are Russians and they even speak Russian during military service.

so 5 am passed, Ukraine still exist?  :P

By the way look at this map and guess what part of Ukraine would under the protectorate of Russia after the Crimea? ))
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 04, 2014, 07:37:59 am
As long war will be bad for business you don't have to worry.
 Is there any oil in Ukraine ? No. So Us army will stay at home.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2014, 08:01:45 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 04, 2014, 07:37:59 am
As long war will be bad for business you don't have to worry.
 Is there any oil in Ukraine ? No. So Us army will stay at home.
Except it's not the oil where the big money has been in the past wars for the US. It's the military industry. And war is always good for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 09:04:38 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 07:29:54 am
so 5 am passed, Ukraine still exist?  :P

By the way look at this map and guess what part of Ukraine would under the protectorate of Russia after the Crimea? ))
(click to show/hide)

As far as I know Putin ordered his west district of army to go back to military bases this night. So I guess UN meeting made its job. To sum up, first I thought that Putin had a great plan (military, diplomacy and tactic wise), but now I see that it failed at mostly everything and made Russia looking stupid. So now if Russia will not proceed with the war - they will lose everything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 04, 2014, 09:14:59 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 03, 2014, 11:39:15 pm
Now you sound like Panos, ancestors of my ancestors did that yadda yadda. Who cares, you werent there. Therefore you do not know how it happened exactly.


What people like you can`t understand, is that the ancestors of a country fought for one thing, FREEDOM, either yours or theirs.

So when I mention my ancestors, I do it because I take pride of what they did , because they did it for me, they gave their life away for freedom.

I maybe wasnt there, but surely affected my entire life. I don`t expect you to understand this, but thats ok, if war happens again in Serbia, you can meet up with Kafein and Prpavi and watch anime all day long.

I`d still give my life for my country 24/7/365, not for the government, but for my fellow Greeks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 04, 2014, 09:27:03 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 09:04:38 am
As far as I know Putin ordered his west district of army to go back to military bases this night. So I guess UN meeting made its job. To sum up, first I thought that Putin had a great plan (military, diplomacy and tactic wise), but now I see that it failed at mostly everything and made Russia looking stupid. So now if Russia will not proceed with the war - they will lose everything.

I hope it works out like that, but for the moment way too optimistic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 04, 2014, 09:28:29 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 04, 2014, 09:14:59 am
but thats ok, if war happens again in Serbia, you can meet up with Kafein and Prpavi and watch anime all day long.



Don't know why but I rofled at this so hard, I think I subconsciously imagined it happening.  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 04, 2014, 09:32:31 am
Quote
So now if Russia will not proceed with the war - they will lose everything.

I strongly disagree with that. They still hold Crimea and there will be referendum, there's nothing Ukraine can do about it at the moment. On other hand if Russia will proceed with the war - while it will be disaster for Ukraine, Russia will lose really a lot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 04, 2014, 09:39:29 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 04, 2014, 09:14:59 am

if war happens again in Serbia, you can meet up with Kafein and Prpavi and watch anime all day long.


the war didn't happen in Serbia but Croatia and Bosnia, Serbs invaded Croatia and Serbs and Croats invaded Bosnia afterwards. There was no war on Serbian territory.

I know first hand a bunch of those "freedom fighter" that fought in the war. It ain't that glamurous as you imagine.

the fact that I have lived through a disgusting war that destroyed mine and the countries in my neghborhjood and set us back 20/30 years behind rest of Europe and the fact it poisoned human relationships in this region for the next 100 years makes me feel the way I feel today.

but you go on acting like a big boi, I just wish you never witness anything like that ever. I know the crysis in Greece must be awfull but trust me it's nothing compared to an ethnic slaughter, which you indirectly approve of (removig of the immigrants by any means and blaming them for every wrong in Greece)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 09:40:17 am
Quote from: serr on March 04, 2014, 09:32:31 am
I strongly disagree with that. They still hold Crimea and there will be referendum, there's nothing Ukraine can do about it at the moment. On other hand if Russia will proceed with the war - while it will be disaster for Ukraine, Russia will lose really a lot.

Referendum that will not be accepted by anyone. It's already announced that referendum is against the law. This referendum will change nothing. It's the same as announcement of Yanukovich asking Russian Forces to help him in Ukraine: without Parliament's decision it's nothing. Though I agree about war being a complete disaster for both countries. By saying "lose everything" I meant that Russia will lose everything in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 04, 2014, 10:02:39 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 09:40:17 am
Referendum that will not be accepted by anyone. It's already announced that referendum is against the law. This referendum will change nothing. It's the same as announcement of Yanukovich asking Russian Forces to help him in Ukraine: without Parliament's decision it's nothing. Though I agree about war being a complete disaster for both countries. By saying "lose everything" I meant that Russia will lose everything in Ukraine.
Well, how can you say it's illegitimate when the whole Maydan-business had been against the law too. How can you deny them their revolution?
I am not opting for or against the referendum. I feel rather neutral when it comes to that. It just seems wrong to say "Maydan was okay cuz REVOLUTION!" and then say "Having a voting process about whether to stay or leave the Ukraine is illegal."

Oh well... I dunno... guess that's the actual issue with revolutions: When does it stop?
Group A starts a revolution and succeeds. Group A then starts the democratic process. Group B sees the process and doesn't like its probable outcome. Group B starts a revolution before Group A even finished theirs --> total chaos breaks lose.
That's how it happened in Egypt and Tunesia, isn't it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 04, 2014, 10:12:00 am
Quote from: Molly on March 04, 2014, 10:02:39 am
Well, how can you say it's illegitimate when the whole Maydan-business had been against the law too. How can you deny them their revolution?
I am not opting for or against the referendum. I feel rather neutral when it comes to that. It just seems wrong to say "Maydan was okay cuz REVOLUTION!" and then say "Having a voting process about whether to stay or leave the Ukraine is illegal."

Oh well... I dunno... guess that's the actual issue with revolutions: When does it stop?
Group A starts a revolution and succeeds. Group A then starts the democratic process. Group B sees the process and doesn't like its probable outcome. Group B starts a revolution before Group A even finished theirs --> total chaos breaks lose.
That's how it happened in Egypt and Tunesia, isn't it?


Divide and conquer the oldest tactic in the world and it still works.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 10:12:16 am
Quote from: Molly on March 04, 2014, 10:02:39 am
Well, how can you say it's illegitimate when the whole Maydan-business had been against the law too. How can you deny them their revolution?
I am not opting for or against the referendum. I feel rather neutral when it comes to that. It just seems wrong to say "Maydan was okay cuz REVOLUTION!" and then say "Having a voting process about whether to stay or leave the Ukraine is illegal."

Oh well... I dunno... guess that's the actual issue with revolutions: When does it stop?
Group A starts a revolution and succeeds. Group A then starts the democratic process. Group B sees the process and doesn't like its probable outcome. Group B starts a revolution before Group A even finished theirs --> total chaos breaks lose.
That's how it happened in Egypt and Tunesia, isn't it?

What did they actually do in Maydan? I completely agree that the Maydan fights were illegal. Ok, but what's illegitimate in current Ukrainian government? The Parliament is absolutely the same, it was elected in 2012. I can hardly call it a revolution, people got rid of a bandit President. New President will be elected in the end of May.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 10:14:31 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 09:40:17 am
Referendum that will not be accepted by anyone. It's already announced that referendum is against the law. This referendum will change nothing. It's the same as announcement of Yanukovich asking Russian Forces to help him in Ukraine: without Parliament's decision it's nothing. Though I agree about war being a complete disaster for both countries. By saying "lose everything" I meant that Russia will lose everything in Ukraine.
Actually - I think they already did loose their "friendly" nation status. Apart from relative minority of die-hard-russian-nationalists - I understand that MOST Ukranians do not appreciate their "friends" back stabing them during their hardest hour. At least everyone is wearing their true faces now...

The most fucked-up thing is, that without escalating the armed conflict and inviting bloodshed - there is quite little Ukraine or anyone else can do to "on site" if one does not get his boots in the dirt. And I don't see that happening.

Dave - is a choice "Crimea or EU/Westernization" a real one or just a child of my brainwashed mind? Where would you stand if such a choice was presented?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 10:21:12 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 10:14:31 am
(click to show/hide)
Ukraine for EU is 42 millions consumers and pipe from Russsia
 Ukrain for Russia is 42 millions consumers and pipe to EU
 For Nato its place for antimissile defense

And no one  from them dont cares if  Ukrainians frendly nations or not  :P also if you play DotA you would know that young Ukrainians do not like Russia)


I think it's because, in the 9th century Ukrainians, forced Russian use boots instead of bast shoe
   
, and now we do not want give  them back theirs Siberia ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 10:24:16 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 10:21:12 am
Ukraine for EU is 42 millions consumers and pipe from Russsia
 Ukrain for Russia is 42 millions consumers and pipe to EU
 For Nato its place for antimissile defense

And no one  from them dont cares if  Ukrainians frendly nations or not  :P
Nice of you never noticing, that its actually about what UKRAINE wants, not EU or your fucked up chocolate chip cookie country  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 04, 2014, 10:27:27 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 10:24:16 am
Nice of you never noticing, that its actually about what UKRAINE wants, not EU or your fucked up chocolate chip cookie country  :rolleyes:

Funny how a German calls others nazees  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 10:29:38 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 10:24:16 am
Nice of you never noticing, that its actually about what UKRAINE wants, not EU or your fucked up chocolate chip cookie country  :rolleyes:
oh i forgot dat 1
no one cares wat Ukraine wants  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 10:32:07 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 10:14:31 am
Actually - I think they already did loose their "friendly" nation status. Apart from relative minority of die-hard-russian-nationalists - I understand that MOST Ukranians do not appreciate their "friends" back stabing them during their hardest hour. At least everyone is wearing their true faces now...

The most fucked-up thing is, that without escalating the armed conflict and inviting bloodshed - there is quite little Ukraine or anyone else can do to "on site" if one does not get his boots in the dirt. And I don't see that happening.

Dave - is a choice "Crimea or EU/Westernization" a real one or just a child of my brainwashed mind? Where would you stand if such a choice was presented?

There is a lot of provocation here and there especially in eastern Ukraine. Mostly people speculate on things such as Russian language (the vast majority speaks Russian on the east): they try to persuade people that Nаzis forbid people to speak Russian (the thing is that for all the years of independence of Ukraine neither my nor anyone's else rights to speak any language they want were not violated), that Russia is a big brother that will make our country a successful and wealthy region as a part of Russia and so on. One thing is that they never proved their words, only speculated on feelings of people.

If I'd said that there are no people who support Russian Federation and want to become a part of it - I would lie, there is a certain amount of people that want to become a part of it but it's just nothing. For example, from like first 100 of people whom I know and can recall from my mind only like 1 or 2 would like that scenario. If you lived in Ukraine you would understand that people somewhat waited for such actions from Russia. Every time when we have some kind of problems in our economy or with finances or with whatever else - Russia starts an economic war against Ukraine: I can't even count how many times they used to forbid importing Ukrainian products for multiple ridiculous reasons.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 10:32:48 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 04, 2014, 10:27:27 am
Funny how a German calls others nazees  :rolleyes:
Except Ich kann nich Deutch sprachen. I'm from obscure baltic state of Litauen :P

And for the record - media of chocolate chip country identified Lt as a place where Ukrainian nationalist fighter were trained and prepared for extremism... tru story brah... </irony>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: bredeus on March 04, 2014, 10:40:30 am
Somehow I don't belive in negotiations with Putin.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 10:44:47 am
Quote from: bredeus on March 04, 2014, 10:40:30 am
(click to show/hide)
cos u are brainwashed kid !!!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 04, 2014, 10:48:04 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 10:21:12 am
Ukraine for EU is 42 millions consumers and pipe from Russsia
 Ukrain for Russia is 42 millions consumers and pipe to EU
 For Nato its place for antimissile defense

And no one  from them dont cares if  Ukrainians frendly nations or not  :P also if you play DotA you would know that young Ukrainians do not like Russia)


I think it's because, in the 9th century Ukrainians, forced Russian use boots instead of bast shoe
   
, and now we do not want give  them back theirs Siberia ((

Holodomor, forced deportations to Siberia and influx of russian immigrants don't real, only feels. Notice all these things happened in the 20th century.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the country that militarily invaded half of their territory is probably not their friend. You have to be some special kind of retard to equivocate the EU with Russia in this situation. Or some brainwashed moron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 11:00:58 am
Russian troops have always been in the Crimea, certainly not as much but they were.
Crimea is not important for what reasons do not support the new government, the new government needed Crimea. Suppose Russia did not intervene, then the common people of the Crimea with hunting rifles will fight with maydansbrotherhood with firearms. Many corpses - less taxes, Russia risks losing its investment and fleet. (china way, too), because the new Government may refuse to pay debts and fulfill agreements with criminal president.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2014, 11:02:40 am
wat, Vovka.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 11:06:17 am
Quote from: Xant on March 04, 2014, 11:02:40 am
wat, Vovka.
Black Sea Fleet
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 04, 2014, 11:11:57 am
:lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 11:18:26 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 11:00:58 am
Russian troops have always been in the Crimea, certainly not as much but they were.
Crimea is not important for what reasons do not support the new government, the new government needed Crimea. Suppose Russia did not intervene, then the common people of the Crimea with hunting rifles will fight with maydansbrotherhood with firearms. Many corpses - less taxes, Russia risks losing its investment and fleet. (china way, too), because the new Government may refuse to pay debts and fulfill agreements with criminal president.
Omaifakingad... you seriously believe this shit?  :rolleyes: Vodka much?

Maybe you would like to visit Ukrainian nationalist fighters training grounds in Lithuania?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 04, 2014, 11:20:08 am
Quote from: [ptx] on March 04, 2014, 11:11:57 am
(click to show/hide)

Jusy to clarify, no idea if it is true or fake, but it is not Ukraine. It's about some past conflicts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 11:20:22 am
Quote from: Xant on March 04, 2014, 11:02:40 am
wat, Vovka.

Vovka probably doesn't know that it's not only forbidden to move outside the base with weapons without personal permission of Ukrainian minister of Defence, it's also forbidden to take any military actions AT ALL. Even if Russia gets invaded by mongols/aliens/robots they can't use their own Black Sea fleet without permission of Ukraine. It's written in the agreement. Nothing to say that Russian military forces broke all possible international laws about passing borders, simply destroyed and captured border points, blocked all Ukrainian military bases in Crimea and blocked a couple of Ukrainian military ships in Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 11:21:01 am
Quote from: serr on March 04, 2014, 11:20:08 am
Jusy to clarify, no idea if it is true or fake, but it is not Ukraine. It's about some past conflicts.
afganistan mb

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 11:20:22 am
Vovka probably doesn't know that it's not only forbidden to move outside the base with weapons without personal permission of Ukrainian minister of Defence, it's also forbidden to take any military actions AT ALL. Even if Russia gets invaded by mongols/aliens/robots they can't use their own Black Sea fleet without permission of Ukraine. It's written in the agreement. Nothing to say that Russian military forces broke all possible international laws about passing borders, simply destroyed and captured border points, blocked all Ukrainian military bases in Crimea and blocked a couple of Ukrainian military ships in Crimea.
as we say in Russia
 "Строгость законов компенсируется необязательностью их выполнения"  :P I think u can translate it better than Google translator  :P

I love dat _schizo321437 guy i think he want tell me something  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 11:23:09 am
Quote from: [ptx] on March 04, 2014, 11:11:57 am
:lol:

This is from the movie about conflict between Russia and Georgia in 2008. You can also see cars with Georgian license plates. I think that they will not let their forces to do the same because people who support them will turn to the opposite side instantly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 04, 2014, 11:29:07 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 04, 2014, 10:27:27 am
Funny how a German calls others nazees  :rolleyes:
It's been rather obvious that he's not German... :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 11:38:36 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 11:21:01 am
<...>
 as we say in Russia
 "Строгость законов компенсируется необязательностью их выполнения"  :P I think u can translate it better than Google translator  :P
<...>
And this is normal to you? If so - you don't need any more brainwashing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 04, 2014, 11:59:31 am
Care to translate for us non-kyrilic my old friends? :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 04, 2014, 12:02:47 pm
gtranslate says "Strictness of laws is offset by their performance".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 04, 2014, 12:04:32 pm
Severity of our laws is compensated by optionality of its observance
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2014, 12:17:48 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 11:06:17 am
Black Sea Fleet
And you don't see a difference between having a naval base there and having Russian military take control of government buildings and surround Ukrainian military bases and patrol the streets, etc?

It makes absolutely no sense to compare the two.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 04, 2014, 12:41:03 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 04, 2014, 09:14:59 am
What people like you can`t understand, is that the ancestors of a country fought for one thing, FREEDOM, either yours or theirs.

So when I mention my ancestors, I do it because I take pride of what they did , because they did it for me, they gave their life away for freedom.

I maybe wasnt there, but surely affected my entire life. I don`t expect you to understand this, but thats ok, if war happens again in Serbia, you can meet up with Kafein and Prpavi and watch anime all day long.

I`d still give my life for my country 24/7/365, not for the government, but for my fellow Greeks.

Your fellow Greek are worth this sacrifice and not other fellow humans.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 12:54:46 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 04, 2014, 12:17:48 pm
And you don't see a difference between having a naval base there and having Russian military take control of government buildings and surround Ukrainian military bases and patrol the streets, etc?

It makes absolutely no sense to compare the two.
it's same difference as between peaceful demonstrators and maidansbrotherhood  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 01:40:36 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 12:54:46 pm
it's same difference as between peaceful demonstrators and maidansbrotherhood  :P

Red herring, and a poor one at that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi#Red_herring
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 04, 2014, 02:14:58 pm

Video from Belbek airbase showing the moment when Russian troops fire warning shots as unarmed Ukrainians approach. Ukrainians respond by breaking into song.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 04, 2014, 02:16:20 pm
2 points I would like to discuss:


-On Russia "protecting against chocolate chip cookie/terrorist" pretext:

There was indeed some "nazi" speech on the Maidan tribune and laws proposal that would go toward over the top anti-russian laws, even anti-gay and pro-terrorist group that wanted to continue the revolution with even more blood had some speak time allowed.
BUT there was a loooooot of different people that came and spoke to maidan tribune (and thats normal and good, a real democracy means everyone can speak), and I am pretty sure that the few nazi/terrorist/anti-gay that spoke dont have enough influence in Ukraine to pass their ideas into laws, so it is indeed a nice little fake argument from Russia when they say they want to protect people against them.
BUT  it would be quite naive to say "there is no nazi/terrorist/anti-gay" in the maidan revolution and in the country, there is those kind of people in every country in the world, and for the people to protect themselves against them, they have first to ACKNOWLEDGE that they exist, so please dont say your maidan campaign was a pure snowflake, no revolution is a pure snowflake, you will have to fight against the influence of those you dont agree with even NOW.
One could even say, the worst fighting still have to happen.




-On Crimea/Eastern Ukraine right to change against Kiev laws (or pro-Russian against pro-EU rights):

Like many stated already, it would be very stupid after 50 pages of "GOGO MAIDAN!!!" to use arguments like "There is laws, you cant just change government". Everyone can see that. What Vovka implied is that, maybe even without Russia intervention, pro-russia Ukrainians would have started a counter-maidan revolution, and what would have happened you think? Frankly, I would have loved those "legitimate" pro-EU people in Kiev government to send their policemen in revolted regions and see how they handle their own citizen  :wink: 
But since Russia intervened before even a tiny flame had began to flare, we will never know, and indirectly the Russians have decreased the legitimacy of the pro-russia ukrainians to revolt since they started voicing their mind only after the streets were ripe with unmarked russian soldiers and other pro-russian militias.
BUT even now, even with Russia intervention, you cant say those who overthrown the government in Kiev have more rights than those who overthrown the government in Simferopol, whether they have been helped by an external country or not, the people in the street arent mind-controlled by Putin more than the people at Maidan were mind-controlled by Obama.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 04, 2014, 02:16:32 pm
Singing at them will make their cold hearts melt and make them leave right  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 04, 2014, 02:27:17 pm
Quote from: Osiris on March 04, 2014, 02:16:32 pm
Singing at them will make their cold hearts melt and make them leave right  :lol:

Never underestimate the terror of having to endure out of tune singing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 04, 2014, 02:33:49 pm
Putin makes a press conference to explain the invasion:
i cant find a video since its on russian tv, someone else should post it.  However he claims its humanitarian aid that is needed and its why russia is in crimea.

U.S efforts:
Secretary of State Kerry has landed in Kiev and is walking the streets of independence square
U.S created a 1 billion dollar aid package for Ukraine to help

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 04, 2014, 02:34:26 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 04, 2014, 02:16:20 pm
-On Crimea/Eastern Ukraine right to change against Kiev laws (or pro-Russian against pro-EU rights):

Like many stated already, it would be very stupid after 50 pages of "GOGO MAIDAN!!!" to use arguments like "There is laws, you cant just change government". Everyone can see that. What Vovka implied is that, maybe even without Russia intervention, pro-russia Ukrainians would have started a counter-maidan revolution, and what would have happened you think? Frankly, I would have loved those "legitimate" pro-EU people in Kiev government to send their policemen in revolted regions and see how they handle their own citizen  :wink: 
But since Russia intervened before even a tiny flame had began to flare, we will never know, and indirectly the Russians have decreased the legitimacy of the pro-russia ukrainians to revolt since they started voicing their mind only after the streets were ripe with unmarked russian soldiers and other pro-russian militias.
BUT even now, even with Russia intervention, you cant say those who overthrown the government in Kiev have more rights than those who overthrown the government in Simferopol, whether they have been helped by an external country or not, the people in the street arent mind-controlled by Putin more than the people at Maidan were mind-controlled by Obama.

The problem is that what is happening in Crimea has nothing to do whatsoever with the Maidan stuff. If we stay true to the facts, it's Russia invading another country with unmarked military personel. Actually the only comparison you could make is that when he was still in place, Yanukovich received financial help from the Kremlin to suppress the rebels, while the Maidan protesters received sandwishes from Hillary Clinton. I'm sorry for drawing such a onesided picture, but I fail to see information supporting anything else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 04, 2014, 02:42:05 pm
Quote from: Bob_Ross on March 04, 2014, 02:14:58 pm

Video from Belbek airbase showing the moment when Russian troops fire warning shots as unarmed Ukrainians approach. Ukrainians respond by breaking into song.
Random source:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 02:45:53 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 04, 2014, 02:16:20 pm
2 points I would like to discuss:


-On Russia "protecting against chocolate chip cookie/terrorist" pretext:

There was indeed some "nazi" speech on the Maidan tribune and laws proposal that would go toward over the top anti-russian laws, even anti-gay and pro-terrorist group that wanted to continue the revolution with even more blood had some speak time allowed.
BUT there was a loooooot of different people that came and spoke to maidan tribune (and thats normal and good, a real democracy means everyone can speak), and I am pretty sure that the few nazi/terrorist/anti-gay that spoke dont have enough influence in Ukraine to pass their ideas into laws, so it is indeed a nice little fake argument from Russia when they say they want to protect people against them.
BUT  it would be quite naive to say "there is no nazi/terrorist/anti-gay" in the maidan revolution and in the country, there is those kind of people in every country in the world, and for the people to protect themselves against them, they have first to ACKNOWLEDGE that they exist, so please dont say your maidan campaign was a pure snowflake, no revolution is a pure snowflake, you will have to fight against the influence of those you dont agree with even NOW.
One could even say, the worst fighting still have to happen.




-On Crimea/Eastern Ukraine right to change against Kiev laws (or pro-Russian against pro-EU rights):

Like many stated already, it would be very stupid after 50 pages of "GOGO MAIDAN!!!" to use arguments like "There is laws, you cant just change government". Everyone can see that. What Vovka implied is that, maybe even without Russia intervention, pro-russia Ukrainians would have started a counter-maidan revolution, and what would have happened you think? Frankly, I would have loved those "legitimate" pro-EU people in Kiev government to send their policemen in revolted regions and see how they handle their own citizen  :wink: 
But since Russia intervened before even a tiny flame had began to flare, we will never know, and indirectly the Russians have decreased the legitimacy of the pro-russia ukrainians to revolt since they started voicing their mind only after the streets were ripe with unmarked russian soldiers and other pro-russian militias.
BUT even now, even with Russia intervention, you cant say those who overthrown the government in Kiev have more rights than those who overthrown the government in Simferopol, whether they have been helped by an external country or not, the people in the street arent mind-controlled by Putin more than the people at Maidan were mind-controlled by Obama.

Completely misunderstood statements. It looks like you try to sound smart and rational while your words make barely any sense.
1. Right sector is first of all nationalistic organization, not nаzi. You should understand the difference.
2. There are definitely some retards in this organization who yelled bullshit. No one declines that, but they are a small amount (not even 1000) and deeply in the west of Ukraine. Maidan never supported them, if they did - give me a link to a video where Maidan supports Nаzis.
3. Russian neonаzis is a common thing in Russia, they even have a huge movement called Restrukt that is leaded by a skinhead and has thousands of followers in the whole Russia. They have multiple neonаzi organisations. Sometimes Russian government indirectly supports them.
4. There is no counter-maidan revolution and it had no chance to happen. As I've said already: President tried his best to make it but failed because he didn't have support of people. There are a lot of people with Russian citizenship in the eastern Ukraine who try to escalate the situation, they arrived into Ukraine in buses from different Russian cities (for instance, the guy who dropped the Ukrainian flag from the local administration, replaced it with Russian flag and made a famous photo is actually a guy from Moscow with Russian citizenship).
5. How don't you get that there is no different Parliament after Maidan? It's the SAME Parliament. Parliament voted for a new head of Parliament, they can't vote for a President, Ukraine doesn't have a President now (and don't need it as it's described in the law of Ukraine that Parliament have functions of a President when there is no President on his place).
6. Maidan didn't demand to destroy Ukraine and separate regions to different countries.
7. Government in Simferopol  has no rights at all: he even failed to have 50 needed votes in their local Parliament, so they just used cards of other deputies having armed Russians inside (it was even impossible, how can you get 50 votes with 40+ registered deputies? It reminds me of Russian elections with 146% of votes.)
8. Any kind of such referendum is forbidden by the law of Ukraine. The only referendum that is possible is a referendum in the whole Ukraine. Also they changed dates of referendum moving it from May to March and want to move the date once again (everyone understands why, because if Russian troops go away from Crimea - he'll get into prison for separatism).
9. There was NOT a single reason to intrude Crimea with Russian forces - it was one of the most silent places in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2014, 02:56:27 pm
Quote from: Bob_Ross on March 04, 2014, 02:14:58 pm

Video from Belbek airbase showing the moment when Russian troops fire warning shots as unarmed Ukrainians approach. Ukrainians respond by breaking into song.

Hahah, elite Russian soldiers. Look at how the Russkie on the left holds his rifle. Gangbanger style, only with an AK.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 03:07:53 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 02:45:53 pm
.
3. Russian neonаzis is a common thing in Russia, they even have a huge movement called Restrukt that is leaded by a skinhead and has thousands of followers in the whole Russia. They have multiple neonаzi organisations. Sometimes Russian government indirectly supports them.


Bullshit. Restrukt is nothing, they have no power, just stupid kids. Goverment don't support them, and their leader now in jail.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 04, 2014, 03:10:32 pm
A question: is this word twisting, or did Putin really say something like:
Russian President Vladimir Putin says there is no need yet to send Russian troops into Ukraine.

(from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26433309)

Wouldn't that mean they do not consider Crimea part of Ukraine, since they have already sent Russian troops there? Interesting rethoric if it is not twisted
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 03:10:58 pm
Dave, I simply dont understand how can you call my statments illogical if everything i says got quite logical explanation, causes and results etc.

Quote
To make it short: You live in Ukraine, you hate Ukraine, you hate democracy, you think Ukraine shouldn't exist in its current borders, UkrSSR stronk.
and thats all what you got from my message?  :| well i shouldnt explain everything that long because you seems to be disabled to make analysis of things which are related not as obvious as relation between russian federation and lenin.
Quote
1. About unrelated stuff and psychology of choices. I've stated here multiple times (I can't even count how many) that not everyone is happy with current government (including me, I personally dislike it), that there is no ideal choice at all: whatever you do now - people will be unhappy.
well I was talking about personal choises of each person. not about politics. the relation of this part of my message to all this thread is person's point of view. can you see something a little bit more far your mind? do you think that your own life is more important than life of other people and will you sacrifice the prosperity\life of other people to make yourself more happy\rich\etc?
Quote
2. About democracy being bad. I strictly disagree, don't even want to discuss it. You would get to Gulag for your words.
nice explanation. why dont you explain why you like democracy that much? I just explained why I dislike it and why I found it as way into the abyss. but what about you?
(click to show/hide)
Quote
3. About Ukraine being fiction. Following your logic: how can UNR (Ukrainian National Republic) that existed 3 (yes, three) years that declared independence from Russian Empire be more related to Ukraine than UkrSSR? With the same logic I can claim that Moscow should be a part of Ukraine as it got founded by lords of Kiev Rus, but I don't do it. Why? Because it would be extremely stupid. Current Ukrainian borders are ratified by the whole world (including Russia).
three years of independence? you should learn history ...  or at least analyze it a little bit better than you are doing. do you want to call Skoropadskiy as a leader of idependent UNR?
(click to show/hide)
my understanding of following territory is next " independent Ukraine" -> successor of the previous country -> "variant 1: successor of UkrSSR. new politicial system with total disagreement with political views of USSR. successing denied " -> "variant 2: successor of historical land" -> "what is historical Ukraine?" -> " v 1: Kievan Rus. too long time ago and moot case. no justice proofs.denied." -> "v 2: Hetmanat. same thing as with Kievan Rus. denied" -> "v 3: UNR. legally confirmed country with the word "Ukraine" in the name.
as for me the territory of Hetmanat is the right choise... but it was so long time ago so with time of USSR ethnic borders of ukrainians became larger.  the trouble is... what is ethnical ukrainian? western ukrainians are being called us "russins", eastern - one of russians ethnos, crimea - tatars, russians.
and all those nations are forming the Ukraine, the country we are talking about... but people from different ethnical groups got too different points of view...
well maybe I am wrong... but everything works right in the way that I am trying to explain.
Quote
4. About Crimea not being Ukrainian. If it's not Ukrainian - it's definitely not Russian then. Crimea was Russian during 170 years (1783-1954) and was never Russian before and hopefully doesn't become in future.
let it be the part of Turkey then? well I think there must be voting. as I know there more ethnical russians but only democrative voting can show part of what country Crimea should be.
Quote
5. About corruption in Ukraine. Yes, Ukraine was corrupted (99th place with previous president in 2006) in the past but it became corrupted even more with Yanukovich becoming probably the most (144th place in 2013, the highest corruption rating for Ukraine so far). You want to get rid of corruption and decide to become a part of guess what country? Tip: this country shares 127th place in 2013 corruption antirating with Pakistan, Nicaragua, Gambia, Lebanon, Mali, Comoros and Azerbaijan. No idea? Oh, it's Russian Federation, how unexpected.
the funny thing is from where you found this statistics?  I know that we can get statistic of murders per year... so statistic of corruption can be founded only in the same way... but does it really means that the country became more corrupted? or it means that more corrupted officials was founded?  exuse me, how does it means that there was less corrupted officials before? does it means that now here will be less corrupted officials now?
Quote
6. About quote that you hate the government but love the country. That's just obvious hypocrisy. 5 minutes ago you confessed that you hate your country, also what should I say if you don't even accept Ukraine as a country calling it fiction?
I like the culture of my land. there was so many epic things in my land... but my land and Ukraine is different places. my land is wild steppe and industrial towns, yellow wheat fields and blue sky above it... not the red&black flag and people who are screaming Hail Hitlar Slava Ukraini! ... that ukraine, that heroes they are talking about are not mine ukraine and heroes. even more, its something complitelly different, something... opposite.


Dave, in every your answer you says more and more things... but you are not explaining them. If you like something - let it be, but if you dont even understand what are you talking about why do you talking about it? if I am wrong - explain it. explain it fine, with causes and results. without analysis any thesis becomming complitely pointless... we are talking about politics, not about culture. its not about preferences, its about humans life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 03:29:43 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 03:07:53 pm
Bullshit. Restrukt is nothing, they have no power, just stupid kids. Goverment don't support them, and their leader now in jail.

(click to show/hide)

I didn't say that Restrukt has support of government. I said about other Russian nationalistic and nаzi organizations. Also you have to learn to read because you understand like a half from what I write. So I'll explain it in Russian
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on March 04, 2014, 03:34:51 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 04, 2014, 09:14:59 am
I`d still give my life for my country 24/7/365, not for the government, but for my fellow Greeks.
On a side note, Panos would give his live for his country 0.00939334.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 03:43:26 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 03:10:58 pm
[...]Dave, in every your answer you says more and more things... but you are not explaining them[...]

Once you've mentioned Polish people who can't be persuaded in things, now I read your text and understand why. Your logic is too simple and premature, consequently wrong, I barely believe you can persuade someone. You claim that I don't use facts but your text makes no sense at all, looks like a text made by a young teenager who has just found out that he is a cool political specialist. This time I didn't manage to read this all text. Seriously, saying that western Ukrainians are called russins just shows your level of education (for the rest of people who read this: Rusins are like 50 thousands, small ethnic slavic group).  About corruption: google Transparency International.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on March 04, 2014, 03:44:00 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 03:10:58 pm
why dont you explain why you like democracy that much? I just explained why I dislike it and why I found it as way into the abyss. but what about you?

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 03:10:58 pm
only democrative voting can show part of what country Crimea should be.

make up your mind, will you ?

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 03:10:58 pm
red&black flag and people who are screaming Hail Hitlar Slava Ukraini!

can you show me material of these people shouting that ? as far as i know red & black flag is of anarchists which is opposed to facist/communist/democracy(as we know it)

btw. did you read what kind of the man Karl Marx was? living of the loans from friend and family, not having a single day at work, just dreaming about his utopia and hating on things that would disturb his existence. Yeah a real role model all should follow
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 04, 2014, 04:06:24 pm
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on March 04, 2014, 03:44:00 pm
[...]
btw. did you read what kind of the man Karl Marx was? living of the loans from friend and family, not having a single day at work, just dreaming about his utopia and hating on things that would disturb his existence. Yeah a real role model all should follow
Don't forget the drug abuse :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 04, 2014, 04:09:44 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 04, 2014, 11:29:07 am
It's been rather obvious that he's not German... :lol:

Well, Panos isn't sharpest knife in the drawer, is he, he thought that I'm a girl... Oh wait :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 04:19:39 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 03:43:26 pm
Your logic is too simple and premature, consequently wrong, I barely believe you can persuade someone.
but with this kind of logic I am explaining how things really works. yeah, I cannot convice any of you... but things are not being changed because of it.
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 03:43:26 pm
You claim that I don't use facts but your text makes no sense at all
1. does my fails in explanation are fixing your fails?
2. where exactly my text makes no sence?
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 03:43:26 pm
looks like a text made by a young teenager who has just found out that he is a cool political specialist.

lol I know that you are older than me for some years but I just wanted to said something like this to you after this
Quote
To make it short: You live in Ukraine, you hate Ukraine, you hate democracy, you think Ukraine shouldn't exist in its current borders, UkrSSR stronk.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 03:43:26 pm
This time I didn't manage to read this all text. Seriously, saying that western Ukrainians are called russins just shows your level of education (for the rest of people who read this: Rusins are like 50 thousands, small ethnic slavic group)
here I failed... its not just 50k of people - its the people from only one region in western ukraine.

Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on March 04, 2014, 03:44:00 pm
make up your mind, will you ?
but its my own mind. my country is democrative so I have to follow the laws of my country, no matter I like it or I dont.
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on March 04, 2014, 03:44:00 pm
can you show me material of these people shouting that ? as far as i know red & black flag is of anarchists which is opposed to facist/communist/democracy(as we know it)
about Hitlar - I am not serios, but well ... when someone from tribune screaming "SLAVE UKRAINI" and all people around are answering "GEROYAM SLAVA" that reminds me something... about red and black flags - you can find in internet now really easy. from my own expirience:
once at december about 30 students came to my university to support the maydan... there was 4 bannermen... 3 of them was carrying blue&yellow flag... 

Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on March 04, 2014, 03:44:00 pm
living of the loans from friend and family, not having a single day at work, just dreaming about his utopia and hating on things that would disturb his existence. Yeah a real role model all should follow
ofcourse I dont want this kind of life(communistic) same like you dont. but its a only productive and honest way, no matter we like it or we dont.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 04:23:30 pm
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1017094.html

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 04, 2014, 04:40:57 pm
Dave you quote me but I feel like you talk to someone else  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 04, 2014, 04:58:32 pm
What I find terribly hypocritical in the Russian stance—I'm not denying that "Western" governments too can be hypocritical—is that Putin argues that the Crimean peninsula has the right of self-determination, while he has been denying the Caucasus region that exact same right ever since he came to power, brutally repressing the region instead. The whole self-determination thing is just a fabricated argument that would give Russia at least some (but still weak) reason to annex the Crimean peninsula. Putin doesn't give a shit about the ethnic Russians living in Crimea. They're just being used.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 04, 2014, 05:24:40 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 04, 2014, 02:56:27 pm
Hahah, elite Russian soldiers. Look at how the Russkie on the left holds his rifle. Gangbanger style, only with an AK.

This
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2014, 05:35:16 pm
These actually ARE Russian elite. But it's not exactly news to anyone in the know that Russians have a third rate military ... at best
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 05:37:06 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 04:23:30 pm
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1017094.html

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Quote from: Xant on March 04, 2014, 05:35:16 pm
These actually ARE Russian elite. But it's not exactly news to anyone in the know that Russians have a third rate military ... at best

Ukrainian military is not any better. The only thing Ukrainian army is better is that we don't have people who have to pass obligatory military service, all those people in Ukrainian uniform are professionals. But most of them have no experience and weapons are outdated mostly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on March 04, 2014, 05:53:43 pm
looks like WWII stuff...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 04, 2014, 05:59:37 pm
Quote
The only thing Ukrainian army is better is that we don't have people who have to pass obligatory military service, all those people in Ukrainian uniform are professionals. But most of them have no experience and weapons are outdated mostly.

In fact, we have. Last obligatory call was last autumn. There will be no more though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 06:22:57 pm
Quote from: serr on March 04, 2014, 05:59:37 pm

In fact, we have. Last obligatory call was last autumn. There will be no more though.

My bad, 5000 got mobilized in Autumn. I thought there was no mobilization in Autumn.  :mad:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 06:26:29 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 04, 2014, 06:32:47 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tot. on March 04, 2014, 06:51:39 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 06:54:37 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2014, 06:59:57 pm
My eye hurt with all this kirilica around... dont you have this... vkontakte or some such ? I was so interested in actuall people from both sides saying things in ENGLISH, cuz those journos... ya know... :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 04, 2014, 07:00:47 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 04, 2014, 07:06:49 pm
Yea, keep it English or GTFO :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 04, 2014, 07:08:20 pm
Можете ли вы, ребята, говорить на английском языке, пожалуйста?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lars on March 04, 2014, 07:24:42 pm
Quote from: Moncho on March 04, 2014, 07:08:20 pm
Можете ли вы, ребята, говорить на английском языке, пожалуйста?
Quote from: Molly on March 04, 2014, 07:06:49 pm
Yea, keep it English or GTFO :P


visitors can't see pics , please register or login


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 07:50:38 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 06:26:29 pm
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Sorry for Russian guys.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 04, 2014, 08:05:24 pm
cyka ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 04, 2014, 08:10:59 pm
oh poor eumy old friends cant even use a google translator!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2014, 08:15:01 pm
Hyvä on hiihtäjän hiihdellä,
kun hanki on hohtava alla,
kun taivas kirkasna kaareutuu -
mut hauskempi hiihtää, kun ruskavi puu,
tuul' ulvovi, polku on ummessa
ja tuisku on taivahalla.
Hyvä on hiihtäjän hiihdellä,
kun ystävä häll' on myötä,
kun latu on aukaistu edessään -
mut parempi hiihdellä yksinään,
tiens' itse aukaista itselleen
ja yksin uhmata yötä.
Hyvä on hiihtäjän hiihdellä,
kun tietty on matkan määrä,
kun liesi viittovi lämpöinen, -
mut sorjempi, uljaampi hiihtää sen,
joka outoja onnen vaiheita käy
eikä tiedä, miss' oikea, väärä.
Ja hyvä on hiihtäjän hiihdellä,
kun riemu on rinnassansa,
kun toivo säihkyvi soihtuna yöss' -
mut käypä se laatuun hiihtää myös
hiki otsalla, suurissa suruissa
ja kuolema kupeellansa.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 04, 2014, 08:19:02 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 04, 2014, 08:19:51 pm
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well here is nothing to talk about since we got temporary new government ... which probably will be new official. lets hope that things in Ukraine will not become worse... but the obviously will.
just I wish you all to understand that when you was supporting them even in internet you caused the worse life to ukraine... I wish to be wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 08:23:00 pm
http://coub.com/view/szr8
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 08:49:23 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 08:23:00 pm
http://coub.com/view/szr8
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Once again sorry for Russian.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 04, 2014, 08:59:02 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 08:49:23 pm
Once again sorry for Russian.
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Keep your russian discussion here (http://forum.melee.org/1056109110891089108210861103107910991095108510991081-10921086108810911084/keep-your-russian-discussion-here/new/#new)  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 04, 2014, 09:02:01 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 04, 2014, 08:59:02 pm
Keep your russian discussion here (http://forum.melee.org/1056109110891089108210861103107910991095108510991081-10921086108810911084/keep-your-russian-discussion-here/new/#new)  :P

Imagine that you're Ivani4 and use google translate  :D :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 04, 2014, 09:07:56 pm
Seriously, the only reason this whole topic stayed active and rather civilized was that we're genuinely interested in the opinions. Especially those opinions from people actually living down there.

When you keep posting in Russian, the whole point is basically gone. :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 09:16:01 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 04, 2014, 09:27:32 pm
хорошо, вы попросили его



come on guys, less война, more водка
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 04, 2014, 09:59:05 pm
ex admiral of Ukraine Navy is asking ukrainian marines in Feodosia to join the side of Autonomic Republic of Crimea with Yanukovich as president. He is promissing good salary, saving millitary ranks and stuff..... Of course marines refused this proposition and will not betray military oath.


http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/03/3/7017237/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 04, 2014, 10:36:24 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on March 04, 2014, 09:59:05 pm
Autonomic Republic of Crimea with Yanukovich as president.

.-.?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 04, 2014, 10:41:24 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on March 04, 2014, 09:59:05 pm
ex admiral of Ukraine Navy is asking ukrainian marines in Feodosia to join the side of Autonomic Republic of Crimea with Yanukovich as president. He is promissing good salary, saving millitary ranks and stuff..... Of course marines refused this proposition and will not betray military oath.


http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/03/3/7017237/

Anyway, I think this is the first time in history that the Chief of Navy defects to another country. If anyone knows any other example, I would appreciate the input.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 04, 2014, 10:44:51 pm
Probably not the chief of navy as we see it today, but "generals" (be it on the land or on the sea) have always been the center of many conflicting loyalties.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 04, 2014, 10:46:41 pm
Dude, this is equivalent of Commander-in-Chief of of Military.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 04, 2014, 10:55:41 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on March 04, 2014, 09:59:05 pm
ex admiral of Ukraine Navy is asking ukrainian marines in Feodosia to join the side of Autonomic Republic of Crimea with Yanukovich as president. He is promissing good salary, saving millitary ranks and stuff..... Of course marines refused this proposition and will not betray military oath.


http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/03/3/7017237/

someone should put a bullet to the head of this traitorous bundle of sticks
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 04, 2014, 10:57:41 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 04, 2014, 10:46:41 pm
Dude, this is equivalent of Commander-in-Chief of of Military.


Yep, its a big fish :P will probably help build credence to "autonomous" new regime and increase desertion/disorganization rate of newly governed Ukrainian army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 04, 2014, 11:13:19 pm
Truth to be told, I heard an unconfirmed rumor from my Ukrainian friend that he did it at gunpoint. Supposedly he was told to choose between the bullet and shitload of money.

But as I said, this is only a rumor, and could be a complete bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 04, 2014, 11:39:08 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 09:16:01 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 12:34:49 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 04, 2014, 11:13:19 pm
Truth to be told, I heard an unconfirmed rumor from my Ukrainian friend that he did it at gunpoint. Supposedly he was told to choose between the bullet and shitload of money.

But as I said, this is only a rumor, and could be a complete bullshit.

Who wouldn't go for the shitload of money? Held at gunpoint or not lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: zagibu on March 05, 2014, 12:38:51 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 12:34:49 am
Who wouldn't go for the shitload of money? Held at gunpoint or not lol

Someone with integrity?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 12:44:54 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 12:57:06 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 04, 2014, 10:41:24 pm
Anyway, I think this is the first time in history that the Chief of Navy defects to another country. If anyone knows any other example, I would appreciate the input.

You know what is funnier? That guy was a Chief of Navy during ONE day. He got assigned on Saturday and betrayed his country on Sunday  :lol: He is the only officer so far who betrayed Ukraine.

Quote from: Yarl on March 04, 2014, 09:16:01 pm
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Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 12:44:54 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 05, 2014, 01:27:59 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 12:57:06 am
You know what is funnier? That guy was a Chief of Navy during ONE day. He got assigned on Saturday and betrayed his country on Sunday  :lol: He is the only officer so far who betrayed Ukraine.

Loyalty award 2014 winner
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 02:28:18 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 12:57:06 am
He is the highest ranking officer so far who betrayed Ukraine.

Fixed that for you.

There was already tons of deserters a bit everywhere during the maidan, and more since Russia takedown after Kiev change of ruler.
Those who goes wild or to the other side do not post a youtube video  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 04:33:38 am
Quote from: zagibu on March 05, 2014, 12:38:51 am
Someone with integrity?

That's gone when you're dead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 05, 2014, 04:41:46 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 04:33:38 am
That's gone when you're dead.

So is your money when you die!

It's no use to you anymore when dead  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on March 05, 2014, 06:41:19 am
If I was one of you english-speaking guys, I would totally google-translate the fuck out of all the russian comments here.
Because who knows, what if all this happening is a fiction? What if nothing happened there at all, and now those russians/ukrainians are telling each other how nicely they fooled you and drawed your attention while at the same time they both built a military base at the bottom of Pacific ocean?  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 06:49:31 am
Quote from: Macropus on March 05, 2014, 06:41:19 am
If I was one of you english-speaking guys, I would totally google-translate the fuck out of all the russian comments here.
Because who knows, what if all this happening is a fiction? What if nothing happened there at all, and now those russians/ukrainians are telling each other how nicely they fooled you and drawed your attention while at the same time they both built a military base at the bottom of Pacific ocean?  :shock:
moon base! visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Our scientists have begun to study the behavior of bears in weightlessness  :P

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 12:57:06 am
You know what is funnier? That guy was a Chief of Navy during ONE day. He got assigned on Saturday and betrayed his country on Sunday  :lol: He is the only officer so far who betrayed Ukraine.
Looks like your new government is able to select right personnel  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 05, 2014, 07:04:29 am
Vovka don't forget the space Sturmoviks, like these spits right here

(click to show/hide)

They should be called the Intergalactic-II   :P


Edit: Or just some more 60's cheese like this  :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 07:13:48 am
Quote from: Christo on March 05, 2014, 07:04:29 am
Vovka don't forget the space Sturmoviks, like these spits right here

(click to show/hide)
They should be called the Intergalactic-II   :P
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no! Putin-II and Medved !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 05, 2014, 07:16:10 am
One does not simply call a war machine Putin.

I mean the writers at Treyarch went about there and it was very embarassing

"The U.S.S. Barack Obama (CVN-08), frequently referred to simply as "The Obama", is an unnamed-class aircraft carrier of the United States Navy that is featured in Call of Duty: Black Ops II"

Even if it's just a videogame I was facepalming while laughing for about 2 minutes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 07:21:35 am
Quote from: Christo on March 05, 2014, 07:16:10 am
One does not simply call a war machine Putin.
I mean the writers at Treyarch went about there and it was very embarassing
"The U.S.S. Barack Obama (CVN-08), frequently referred to simply as "The Obama", is an unnamed-class aircraft carrier of the United States Navy that is featured in Call of Duty: Black Ops II"
Even if it's just a videogame I was facepalming while laughing for about 2 minutes
America America!
America stronk!
Russia occupied a democratic country and in response the U.S. refused to sell Russian chicken legs and pork)
USA USA USA  :P :P :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 05, 2014, 07:23:18 am

Hot :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 05, 2014, 07:24:21 am
From her heart..


suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 07:33:46 am
Quote from: Falka on March 05, 2014, 07:23:18 am
Hot :P
never trust women with small boobs! they are tricky!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 05, 2014, 08:03:59 am
Quote from: Falka on March 05, 2014, 07:23:18 am

Hot :P

Breaking news everyone, Putin saw that video and he was so scared to death that he not only will pull back his troops from ukraine, but will also surrender to them


Thank you Abby, you just saved the world from WW3  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2014, 08:05:14 am
The thing is, an Admiral obviously has some great propaganda value for Russia. But that'd be some coincidence if he was the only traitor in the Ukrainian military. Chances are that Russkies are telling at least some of the higher ups to stay put, so they'll know about anything that the Ukrainian military does before it happens.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 05, 2014, 08:46:43 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 06:49:31 am
moon base! visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Our scientists have begun to study the behavior of bears in weightlessness  :P
 Looks like your new government is able to select right personnel  :P
Looks like your government is only able to buy "loyalty" of right personnel at gun point :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 05, 2014, 08:51:00 am
Quote from: wanteds on March 05, 2014, 08:13:24 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Just had to repost it cuz I think it's actually quite funny :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 am
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 02:28:18 am
Fixed that for you.

There was already tons of deserters a bit everywhere during the maidan, and more since Russia takedown after Kiev change of ruler.
Those who goes wild or to the other side do not post a youtube video  :P

Any proof? Not a single military officer of Ukrainian army betrayed people besides that guy. If you have any proves - it would be interesting for me, for real.

Quote from: Xant on March 05, 2014, 08:05:14 am
The thing is, an Admiral obviously has some great propaganda value for Russia. But that'd be some coincidence if he was the only traitor in the Ukrainian military. Chances are that Russkies are telling at least some of the higher ups to stay put, so they'll know about anything that the Ukrainian military does before it happens.

Dude, it's Ukraine. Russia knows everything about Ukrainian military bases and all the stuff like that. Some Ukrainian generals know less about Ukrainian military than Russians so that's just meh. Also I personally think that he made a negative propaganda. Because when he betrayed his forces - nobody followed him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 09:34:58 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 05, 2014, 08:46:43 am
Looks like your government is only able to buy "loyalty" of right personnel at gun point :P
I'm sure you're a great expert in the sphere of international relations like all of us here )
I'm sure Putin would buy and your guys, but unfortunately it is not justified expenses  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 09:41:58 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 am
Because when he betrayed his forces - nobody followed him.
Oh common. they're just waiting that would understand who eventually comes to power. So at the end they will not to be on the losing side  :P

hey! where is my + from shizo guy?!! thank you sir  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 05, 2014, 10:09:11 am
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Just read a German news article where it's said that Poland is rather united across their political board when it comes to the situation in the Ukraine. Far left to far right, everyone seems to think the same way about it.
Guess that's even more after Putin saying that those Maydan dudes were organized and trained professionals, trained for example in Poland :lol:
Never pictured Putin for the funny kind but that is actually hilarious...

Anyway, Poland is on the side of harder sanctions against Russia it seems. Kicking them out of the G8, commerce embargoes and that kind of stuff. They are openly complaining about other EU countries blocking those sanctions.
Kinda understandable even. Ukraine being a direct neighbour and I can imagine that Poland doesn't like the thought of Russia growing in a military way, coming even closer to Polish borders. Guess that wakes nightmares about history.

Gonna be interesting to see how it pans out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 10:12:48 am
Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2014, 10:09:11 am
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Just read a German news article where it's said that Poland is rather united across their political board when it comes to the situation in the Ukraine. Far left to far right, everyone seems to think the same way about it.
Guess that's even more after Putin saying that those Maydan dudes were organized and trained professionals, trained for example in Poland :lol:
Never pictured Putin for the funny kind but that is actually hilarious...

Anyway, Poland is on the side of harder sanctions against Russia it seems. Kicking them out of the G8, commerce embargoes and that kind of stuff. They are openly complaining about other EU countries blocking those sanctions.
Kinda understandable even. Ukraine being a direct neighbour and I can imagine that Poland doesn't like the thought of Russia growing in a military way, coming even closer to Polish borders. Guess that wakes nightmares about history.

Gonna be interesting to see how it pans out.
i see hairy poland hand on dat picture!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 05, 2014, 10:20:17 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 12:57:06 am
You know what is funnier? That guy was a Chief of Navy during ONE day. He got assigned on Saturday and betrayed his country on Sunday  :lol: He is the only officer so far who betrayed Ukraine.

Whoever did veting and profiling has done a great job.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 10:27:38 am
http://vesti.az/news/195039 Media Azerbaijan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTAJjHRiJ_Y BBC
http://www.profile.ru/politics/item/79772 Spiegel
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 05, 2014, 10:33:46 am
Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2014, 10:09:11 am
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Just read a German news article where it's said that Poland is rather united across their political board when it comes to the situation in the Ukraine. Far left to far right, everyone seems to think the same way about it.
Guess that's even more after Putin saying that those Maydan dudes were organized and trained professionals, trained for example in Poland :lol:
Never pictured Putin for the funny kind but that is actually hilarious...

Anyway, Poland is on the side of harder sanctions against Russia it seems. Kicking them out of the G8, commerce embargoes and that kind of stuff. They are openly complaining about other EU countries blocking those sanctions.
Kinda understandable even. Ukraine being a direct neighbour and I can imagine that Poland doesn't like the thought of Russia growing in a military way, coming even closer to Polish borders. Guess that wakes nightmares about history.

Gonna be interesting to see how it pans out.

ofc Poland is gonna be agains everything Russia does, this has nothing to do with Ukraine. They are not for Ukraine, they are simply against Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 05, 2014, 10:35:24 am
Quote
http://vesti.az/news/195039 Media Azerbaijan
This is 100% fake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK5l6UYT_xs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 10:40:46 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 10:27:38 am
http://vesti.az/news/195039 Media Azerbaijan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTAJjHRiJ_Y BBC
http://www.profile.ru/politics/item/79772 Spiegel

Just curious: where do you get these news about Ukrainians giving up? Especially about Ukrainian navy flagman giving up to Russia and coming back to Ukraine under Russian flag? Really? It's in my city right now and there is Ukrainian flag.

Russian translation:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 11:22:07 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 10:40:46 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 12:26:28 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 05, 2014, 07:23:18 am

Hot :P

Lol the butthurt angry comments in the comment section for that video. Besides the fact that RT is a Kremlin run biased news source lol at the comments. '' BUT USA CAN INVADE COUNTRIES ANYTIME AND NOBODY SAYS ANYTHING Q_Q WAAAH WAAAH''


Quote from: Christo on March 05, 2014, 04:41:46 am
So is your money when you die!

It's no use to you anymore when dead  :P

You can use it to live an interesting life and especially if you get a nice sum of money you can move out of Ukraine and Russia and those cold eastern parts of Yurop.

But your integrity don't mean shit. You died for your country. Congratz. I'm sure there'll be medals on your grave when you die. Oh wait nope it wont because da mighty Bear USSR 2.0 have taken over your country and your grave will get spit upon instead.

GG with life decisions by that thinking

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 05, 2014, 12:47:56 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 12:34:49 am
Who wouldn't go for the shitload of money? Held at gunpoint or not lol
The thing is you described the being held at gunpoint as optional, which in the no gunpoint case means that having any integrity causes you to not choose the shitload of money. Never quite understood the value of having millions compared to having enough to sustain a good standard living.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Awea on March 05, 2014, 12:53:15 pm
Get flowers. Fast guys.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 05, 2014, 01:01:31 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 06:49:31 am
moon base! visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Our scientists have begun to study the behavior of bears in weightlessness  :P
 Looks like your new government is able to select right personnel  :P

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on March 05, 2014, 01:04:12 pm
Why does the main US astronaut look scared shitless???
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 05, 2014, 01:06:00 pm
Quote from: Erasmas on March 05, 2014, 01:04:12 pm
Why does the main US astronaut look scared shitless???

He saw a Russian moon bear.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 05, 2014, 01:29:56 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on March 05, 2014, 01:06:00 pm
He saw a Russian moon bear.
there is no russian bears in Hollywood  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 05, 2014, 01:42:37 pm
oh really?

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Oleg Taktarov
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 01:59:18 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 05, 2014, 12:47:56 pm
The thing is you described the being held at gunpoint as optional, which in the no gunpoint case means that having any integrity causes you to not choose the shitload of money. Never quite understood the value of having millions compared to having enough to sustain a good standard living.

If someone says i'll give you 10 million dollars or euros or whatever and in return you piss on the Dutch flag or wherever you're from and then reveal some millitary secrets (that you'd happen to know of) and in return you're able to travel and live wherever you want with all that money you'd be a fool not to take it.

Why live in mediocrity when given a choice to live like a king?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 02:02:27 pm
You either understand integrity or you don't. I pity you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 02:26:27 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 09:22:46 am
Not a single military officer of Ukrainian army betrayed people besides that guy. If you have any proves - it would be interesting for me, for real.

My bait worked!


There is proof everywhere, even if I came here and posted one, you would say "fake!fake! glory to Ukraine loyal people!", dont you see you lost the ability to reason normally?


Even in peace time there is -at least- minimal desertion, do I really need to tell you why in the current situation of your country there is more?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 02:37:10 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 02:02:27 pm
You either understand integrity or you don't. I pity you.

Old standards of old civilizations. You're literally a moron if you'd reject a large sum of cash like that. Your integrity won't mean shit when you're dead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 05, 2014, 02:40:29 pm
ppl from Ukraine, Russia or guys that are more informed than me, how legit or overreacted is this?

this guy is a real person and is indeed a bankster. dunno if the article is fake or not though.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 05, 2014, 02:40:39 pm
EU just announced that it freezes misappropriated Ukrainian state funds.


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/141324.pdf (http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/141324.pdf)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 05, 2014, 02:43:33 pm

Okay I know this is serious and all but the russian and ukrainian soldier's chat was so bizarre it was fun

-The tall one was ripping shit up
  -The cossack?
 -Yeah the cossack, who the fuck knows who he is
  -What a fucking weirdo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 05, 2014, 02:47:13 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 02:37:10 pm
Old standards of old civilizations. You're literally a moron if you'd reject a large sum of cash like that. Your integrity won't mean shit when you're dead.
Oh you may well keep this oppinion. And teach your kids the same. Then, when some fat dick head comes and offers them pile-o-cash just for fucking you in the ass - I hope their integrity lies with the pile of money  :rolleyes:

Also - plz post video then 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 02:48:22 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on March 05, 2014, 02:40:29 pm
ppl from Ukraine, Russia or guys that are more informed than me, how legit or overreacted is this?

this guy is a real person and is indeed a bankster. dunno if the article is fake or not though.

(click to show/hide)


Oh, someone (with fake titles or not) who say putin is le bad and need to be killed militarily, so counter-mainstream  :lol:

Also point 1 of his article was the same argument used to excuse violence from maidan demo... love how conspiracy theories are accepted only when it fits your political side... its growing old.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 05, 2014, 02:50:57 pm
Oh boy, here we go.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 05, 2014, 03:03:29 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 02:48:22 pm

Oh, someone (with fake titles or not) who say putin is le bad and need to be killed militarily, so counter-mainstream  :lol:

Also point 1 of his article was the same argument used to excuse violence from maidan demo... love how conspiracy theories are accepted only when it fits your political side... its growing old.

ASSUMING the given credentials are right, and assuming this is not fake http://www.eastcapital.com/ja-JP/Corporate/Press-Room/Press-Releases/East-Capital-Financials-Fund-sells-holding-in-Platinum-Bank-Ukraine/, you are calling a CEO of  Top 5 Banks in Ukraine a conspiracy theorist... Also - provocations and immitations of this kind are far from uncommon when talking about Russia. It has quite a history for putting low value on human life (starting with "penal batalions", ending with forced exile of whole nations, belogomor and the like).

I would rather call you an uninformed regular western EU citizen who CANNOT imagine such things to be true. And somehow - I believe I am closer to truth, sorry  :rolleyes:

Quote from: okiN on March 05, 2014, 02:50:57 pm
Oh boy, here we go.

(click to show/hide)
Do you know Catherine or that other Estonian guy? Can you recognize them by voice? From my POV - too good to be true, but I really can't tell... For all I care - the guy may have been fed bull shit on his trip and then reporting this shit forward... which ofc would be quite convenient for putler.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 03:21:47 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 02:48:22 pm

Oh, someone (with fake titles or not) who say putin is le bad and need to be killed militarily, so counter-mainstream  :lol:

Also point 1 of his article was the same argument used to excuse violence from maidan demo... love how conspiracy theories are accepted only when it fits your political side... its growing old.
You're trying very hard to equalize both sides in this conflict, as if both had the exact same amount of truth to them and both stood on the same moral ground. But what if they simply don't?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 05, 2014, 03:43:05 pm
@Prpavi

Fake. Or at least this guy who has a diploma in international relations doesn't know how UN operate. For UN to send NATO troops as observers it would be necessary to have a decision of Security Council, in which both Russia and China have veto right.

And this part about Ukraine developing nuclear weapons in couple of months and then waging nuclear war is just crazy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 05, 2014, 03:44:49 pm
actions of world community to protects the Ukraine against russian invaders
(click to show/hide)
historical view on the ukrainian territory. looks like russian propaganda but however mostly its truth.
(click to show/hide)
russian occupators
(click to show/hide)

as I already said - I dislike the fact of russian invading but because I am scared of results... from little conflict to ww 3. but its not about emotions...
picture that you liked but with little explanation
(click to show/hide)
all ukraine should wait for president's voting and then it will be totally another deal. current official president lost all his legitimate, new, temporary leaders are not legitimated yet... the country is actually frozen till the voting... there is no such things as idependent ukraine for now... only the region between russia and EU with pupet eu temporary leaders.

and yeah, Prpavi, only full retard will call peacemakers to his land.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 03:45:00 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 03:21:47 pm
You're trying very hard to equalize both sides in this conflict, as if both had the exact same amount of truth to them and both stood on the same moral ground. But what if they simply don't?

Very good question, and quite impossible to answer without all-seeing-eyes unfortunately. Thats like asking if god exist or not? Some are ready to believe without the slightest proof, some deny the possibility of such a thing even if they saw miracles. I accept the possibility it might be true.

I'm prone to believe there is individuals which are more inclined to do evil things than others, but I dont believe in "good vs evil" cold war theory. Especially when you see that people always deem themselves good, and the others evil. How can millions of Russian can end up being more evil than millions of Ukrainians? They are all humans.



A french comedian once said about war and fights: 

The enemy is stupid: he believes we are the enemy while he obviously is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 05, 2014, 04:27:54 pm
Putin is pulling some Sudetenland level shit here and you can be all clever and take every headline with a pinch of salt, but regardless through which news source you look at it, a foreign army is occupying the territory of another nation and that is in no way justifiable. Butan, Russia is the bad guy here, sorry to break it to you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 05, 2014, 04:33:04 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 03:45:00 pm
Very good question, and quite impossible to answer without all-seeing-eyes unfortunately. Thats like asking if god exist or not? Some are ready to believe without the slightest proof, some deny the possibility of such a thing even if they saw miracles. I accept the possibility it might be true.

I'm prone to believe there is individuals which are more inclined to do evil things than others, but I dont believe in "good vs evil" cold war theory. Especially when you see that people always deem themselves good, and the others evil. How can millions of Russian can end up being more evil than millions of Ukrainians? They are all humans.



A french comedian once said about war and fights: 

The enemy is stupid: he believes we are the enemy while he obviously is.

Two sides are not equal just because there are two sides to an argument. That's like comparing evolution and young earth creationism and arguing that they are equally legitimate. Sure, the truth is more complex than one biased view or the other, sometimes, but that doesn't make them equally wrong. To utter a quote I can't find back: "Criticizing a system of two colors, you replace it with a system of one color".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 05, 2014, 04:38:05 pm
Russia is the bad guy for sure but then again the USA UK etc are not exactly good guys when it comes to invasions.

So far there hasn't been much bloodshed and sanctions? well i know the UK is against most economic sanctions for sure
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 05, 2014, 04:40:03 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on March 05, 2014, 10:33:46 am
ofc Poland is gonna be agains everything Russia does, this has nothing to do with Ukraine. They are not for Ukraine, they are simply against Russia.

It's not the whole truth. Yes, poles don't like, hate or are afraid of Russia and since in last 5 centuries Russia was always our enemy it's quite understandable I think. But there's also a lot of warm feelings toward ukraine. Not only now but also during orange revolution a few years ago polish society was supporting ukraine.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 05, 2014, 04:48:54 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 05, 2014, 02:43:33 pm

Okay I know this is serious and all but the russian and ukrainian soldier's chat was so bizarre it was fun

-The tall one was ripping shit up
  -The cossack?
 -Yeah the cossack, who the fuck knows who he is
  -What a fucking weirdo.
First part of those... haven't seen it posted yet.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 04:52:58 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 05, 2014, 04:40:03 pm
But there's also a lot of warm feelings toward ukraine. Not only now but also during orange revolution a few years ago polish society was supporting ukraine.

Because orange revolution was anti-Ianoukovitch-Russia already so your point is invalid.
Maidan is round 2 of orange revolution after Ianoukovitch-Russia won the election again against Iouchtchenko-Tymochenko-Europe in 2010 and the subsequent events.


I dont want to philosophe that much on a concrete thing like what Ukraine is going through, I prefer to add one more question : if its highly probable that Russia is bullshitting to the max to gain undeserved benefits in Ukraine, why shouldnt it be highly probablt that Europe/USA was bullshitting to the max behind the scene for Maidan to be successful to gain undeserved benefits in Ukraine?

One side avoided proper election to place puppet new government in Kiev by using escalated protests, the other avoided proper referendum/sovereignty principle to place puppet new government in Simferopol by using army: who is good, who is evil?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 05, 2014, 04:59:27 pm
Do you really not see the difference between some shady business behind the scene and military intrusion?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 05, 2014, 05:02:59 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 04:52:58 pm
why shouldnt it be highly probablt that Europe/USA was bullshitting to the max behind the scene for Maidan to be successful to gain undeserved benefits in Ukraine?

One side avoided proper election to place puppet new government in Kiev by using escalated protests, the other avoided proper referendum/sovereignty principle to place puppet new government in Simferopol by using army: who is good, who is evil?

What? Eu and USA established new ukrainian government? Right...  :wink: It's good to have pro EU government in Kiev and not Janukowycz, but let's not exaggerate, it doesn't make much difference, whoever rules in ukraine gas and oil will be transported to europe anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 05, 2014, 05:04:22 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 04:52:58 pm
Because orange revolution was anti-Ianoukovitch-Russia already so your point is invalid.
Maidan is round 2 of orange revolution after Ianoukovitch-Russia won the election again against Iouchtchenko-Tymochenko-Europe in 2010 and the subsequent events.


I dont want to philosophe that much on a concrete thing like what Ukraine is going through, I prefer to add one more question : if its highly probable that Russia is bullshitting to the max to gain undeserved benefits in Ukraine, why shouldnt it be highly probablt that Europe/USA was bullshitting to the max behind the scene for Maidan to be successful to gain undeserved benefits in Ukraine?

One side avoided proper election to place puppet new government in Kiev by using escalated protests, the other avoided proper referendum/sovereignty principle to place puppet new government in Simferopol by using army: who is good, who is evil?
Even using your incorrect profiling of the protests, Russia is the most evil.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 05, 2014, 05:05:41 pm
Quote from: okiN on March 05, 2014, 02:50:57 pm
Oh boy, here we go.

(click to show/hide)

I'm surprised at the complete lack of reaction here. The call has also been confirmed as genuine.

http://www.vm.ee/?q=node/19352

Just in case none of you bothered to look, it's the Estonian foreign minister telling Catherine Ashton that according to a prominent Maidan activist, the snipers who killed all those people and essentially caused Yanukovich's ouster were apparently shooting at both sides and therefore most likely hired by someone in the opposition. It's not a new theory, but it's one that everyone in the West has been pretty quiet about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 05:06:36 pm
Estonians, pfft.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 05:07:06 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 05, 2014, 05:02:59 pm
What? Eu and USA established new ukrainian government? Right...  :wink:

The simple fact that you entirely doubt over the plausability of USA/EU having chipped in proves my point :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 05:07:34 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 05, 2014, 02:47:13 pm
Oh you may well keep this oppinion. And teach your kids the same. Then, when some fat dick head comes and offers them pile-o-cash just for fucking you in the ass - I hope their integrity lies with the pile of money  :rolleyes:

Also - plz post video then 8-)

Difference between having a hard on for people you don't know a.ka neighbors and taking care of your real family.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 05, 2014, 05:09:30 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 05:06:36 pm
Estonians, pfft.

Yes, of course it's second-hand information on his part and we have no definitive proof of anything, but the complete silence we've had on the topic thus far is pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 05:10:24 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 05:07:34 pm
Difference between having a hard on for people you don't know a.ka neighbors and taking care of your real family.
You're a piece of shit, ok, we get it. Enjoy your dirty money (if you got any), this is not relevant.

Quote from: okiN on March 05, 2014, 05:09:30 pm
Yes, of course it's second-hand information on his part and we have no definitive proof of anything, but the complete silence we've had on the topic thus far is pretty interesting.
Are they really not investigating the shootings?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 05:10:30 pm
Sorry for spam  :o

Quote from: Teeth on March 05, 2014, 05:04:22 pm
Even using your incorrect profiling of the protests, Russia is the most evil.


Replace most evil by more direct less bullshit approach and we can definitely agree  :mrgreen:  (and still Putin use a loooot of bullshit, cant argue on that).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 05, 2014, 05:11:54 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 05:10:24 pm
Are they really not investigating the shootings?

I have no idea. As far as I've seen, nobody's been talking about it. But perhaps a more important question is: if people inside Maidan and even EU ministers have found it to be a compelling possibility, why haven't we heard word one about it in the media?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 05:12:46 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 05:10:24 pm
You're a piece of shit, ok, we get it. Enjoy your dirty money (if you got any), this is not relevant.
Are they really not investigating the shootings?

Lol piece of shit because i'm not brainwashed into believing into patriotism
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Havoco on March 05, 2014, 05:12:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 04:52:58 pm
who is good, who is evil?

Congrats, u just used the worst words for a political debate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 05, 2014, 05:13:55 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 05, 2014, 05:12:46 pm
Lol piece of shit because i'm not brainwashed into believing into patriotism
No. Having no integrity means being a piece of shit. If you don't have any, why do you care, if you get called one, as long as you profit? Hm?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 05, 2014, 05:14:43 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 05:07:06 pm
The simple fact that you entirely doubt over the plausability of USA/EU having chipped in proves my point :wink:

Supporting Maidan isn't the same as, like you said, "placing puppet new government".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 05, 2014, 05:15:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 02:26:27 pm
My bait worked!


There is proof everywhere, even if I came here and posted one, you would say "fake!fake! glory to Ukraine loyal people!", dont you see you lost the ability to reason normally?


Even in peace time there is -at least- minimal desertion, do I really need to tell you why in the current situation of your country there is more?

Okay, everyone is happy that your bait worked. And also cares a lot. The only reason I asked to prove it is that I'm free to any information and I'm not a fanatic who believes in everything one or the other side of propaganda says. I seriously think that you have some psychological dilemma, you know, like there is a group of people who want to think/look different no matter what. You've lost a track that you look paranoid with this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 05, 2014, 05:16:08 pm
Quote
Just in case none of you bothered to look, it's the Estonian foreign minister telling Catherine Ashton that according to a prominent Maidan activist, the snipers who killed all those people and essentially caused Yanukovich's ouster were apparently shooting at both sides and therefore most likely hired by someone in the opposition. It's not a new theory, but it's one that everyone in the West has been pretty quiet about.

Nothing new here, yes, it is unknown who were those snipers, yes, it should be investigated, and there is such investigation going on right now. Our new minister of internal affairs already said that there was third side that was shooting both police and protesters and that side is not ukrainian. No matter what result will this investigation provide, there will be a lot of people who won't believe it.
However while it is very cynical to say it, it is not the most important thing right now, we have Crimea and russian troops there to worry about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 05, 2014, 05:20:30 pm
Quote from: serr on March 05, 2014, 05:16:08 pm
Nothing new here, yes, it is unknown who were those snipers, yes, it should be investigated, and there is such investigation going on right now. Our new minister of internal affairs already said that there was third side that was shooting both police and protesters and that side is not ukrainian. No matter what result will this investigation provide, there will be a lot of people who won't believe it.
However while it is very cynical to say it, it is not the most important thing right now, we have Crimea and russian troops there to worry about.

That's interesting, because from what I've seen the media here hasn't even mentioned the possibility that those snipers were controlled by anyone other than Yanukovich. Good to hear they're looking into it, but if they are believed not to have been Ukrainian, then what's the theory? FSB? CIA? Anarchists? I'm not sure which seems least far-fetched between those and opposition politicians.

But yes, obviously Crimea is dominating everyone's attention right now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 05:23:00 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 05, 2014, 05:14:43 pm
Supporting Maidan isn't the same as, like you said, "placing puppet new government".

You're quite right, and I exagerated to prove my point. But except for the modus operandi, the final intended result is the same.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on March 05, 2014, 05:24:05 pm
Quote from: serr on March 05, 2014, 05:16:08 pm
there was third side that was shooting both police and protesters and that side is not ukrainian
Russian tourists  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 05, 2014, 05:44:03 pm
Quote from: Kalp on March 05, 2014, 05:24:05 pm
Russian tourists  :wink:
Can't be - the traces of empty vodka bottles would have been a dead give away.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2014, 06:00:39 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 05, 2014, 04:33:04 pm
Two sides are not equal just because there are two sides to an argument. That's like comparing evolution and young earth creationism and arguing that they are equally legitimate. Sure, the truth is more complex than one biased view or the other, sometimes, but that doesn't make them equally wrong. To utter a quote I can't find back: "Criticizing a system of two colors, you replace it with a system of one color".
    The Sophisticate:  "The world isn't black and white.  No one does pure good or pure bad. It's all gray.  Therefore, no one is better than anyone else."
    The Zetet:  "Knowing only gray, you conclude that all grays are the same shade.  You mock the simplicity of the two-color view, yet you replace it with a one-color view..."
      —Marc Stiegler, David's Sling
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 05, 2014, 06:19:09 pm
There exist 50 shades of grey  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 05, 2014, 06:28:58 pm
Butan, you're barking up 2 different trees here:

The Maydan movement/government of Ukraine and possible relations to the EU/to Russia are completely unrelated to the Russian forces and the violation of Ukraines borders.

Change of government, and it doesn't really matter how this happens, does not change the borders of a country. It's that simple.

So, discussing who's worse is nonsense when you make a correlation of 2 completely different things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Awea on March 05, 2014, 06:46:08 pm
Please stop useless real riot and trow flowers instead. only flowers FTW ;) I'm sorry for all I've done here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 05, 2014, 07:09:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 05, 2014, 05:07:06 pm
The simple fact that you entirely doubt over the plausability of USA/EU having chipped in proves my point :wink:

Where's the evidence? That the EU and USA were approving the protesters or even biasing the media reports of it to make it look like the police were awful and the protesters were carebears doesn't mean they actually supported them physically. There was some violence against the pro-Yanukovitch entities, but hardly anything that could not have been done without exterior support, so if the protesters received anything from the EU, they didn't use it. Maybe the EU and US tried to covertly destabilize the country after Yanukovitch's derps, but I doubt they would have done that given that at the time an uprising seemed unlikely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 05, 2014, 07:10:46 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2014, 05:44:03 pm
Can't be - the traces of empty vodka bottles would have been a dead give away.
Guilty as charged:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2014, 07:12:01 pm
If the snipers were shooting at both sides, how come there's plenty of video footage of them laying on the ground right next to the police officers? You'd think they would have had something to say about that if the sniper sometimes did a 180' and started taking potshots at them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 05, 2014, 07:14:47 pm
Not necessarily every sniper had been caught on camera...

...guess you'll never see actual snipers before the shot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 05, 2014, 07:26:42 pm
Btw, prime minister of Ukraine, going to Brussel by budget class flight:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Could be a populizm, but I like Pope Francis-style better than this:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 05, 2014, 08:03:49 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2014, 06:28:58 pm
Butan, you're barking up 2 different trees here:

The Maydan movement/government of Ukraine and possible relations to the EU/to Russia are completely unrelated to the Russian forces and the violation of Ukraines borders.

Change of government, and it doesn't really matter how this happens, does not change the borders of a country. It's that simple.

So, discussing who's worse is nonsense when you make a correlation of 2 completely different things.
its the second "battle" but both are parts of one "war", "war" for controling the zone which is being called as "Ukraine"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erasmas on March 05, 2014, 08:37:23 pm
Quote from: Segd on March 05, 2014, 07:10:46 pm
Guilty as charged:
(click to show/hide)

Hm. Inconclusive IMHO. Not a single decent bottle of vodka there. What the fuck are you guys drinking over there???  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 05, 2014, 09:16:35 pm
I think vodka will be banned in ukraine because its too russian, and we, ukrainians, as european democratic civilized nation wont drink communist shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2014, 09:17:17 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2014, 07:14:47 pm
Not necessarily every sniper had been caught on camera...

...guess you'll never see actual snipers before the shot.
No shit every sniper hasn't been caught on camera. So what? Why would the opposition do something risky and stupid like hire their own snipers to shoot at both sides when the police already had snipers shooting at people? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2014, 09:24:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 05, 2014, 09:17:17 pm
No shit every sniper hasn't been caught on camera. So what? Why would the opposition do something risky and stupid like hire their own snipers to shoot at both sides when the police already had snipers shooting at people? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
Because that's not how it happened chronologically?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2014, 09:31:32 pm
So the snipers where shooting the crowds before the snipers were shooting the crowds. Of course. I see it now. How could I have been so blind?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 10:42:49 pm
03 March 2014. Donetsk. Other soldiers «unmarked». They don't talk... (Might not know Russian? May not know how to speak Ukrainian?  :cry:) However, politeness, they lack. :wink:
http://video.yandex.ru/users/terkin-vasiliy-terkin/view/140/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 11:21:53 pm
So said Kadyrov (head of Chechnya) about jarosz, Sashko and other Ukrainian terrorists (full text). Sorry, only in Russian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFQJJz6ejK0
Kadyrov, usually, fulfills his promises. The more (Kadyrov said so)that these Ukrainians betrayed and Chechens, when there was war. I think that everyone Bandera will soon get acquainted with the personal Bogdan Stashinsky.
Russia's Supreme court announced Yarosha in the international search. Century Putin also fulfills his promises (in such situations is very clean and quiet way).
Thus, as they say in Russia, quite mad Hello!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2014, 11:33:31 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 05, 2014, 11:38:44 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 11:21:53 pm
So said Kadyrov (head of Chechnya) about jarosz, Sashko and other Ukrainian terrorists (full text). Sorry, only in Russian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFQJJz6ejK0
Kadyrov, usually, fulfills his promises. The more (Kadyrov said so)that these Ukrainians betrayed and Chechens, when there was war. I think that everyone Bandera will soon get acquainted with the personal Bogdan Stashinsky.
Russia's Supreme court announced Yarosha in the international search. Century Putin also fulfills his promises (in such situations is very clean and quiet way).
Thus, as they say in Russia, quite mad Hello!

Kadyrov forget to say Allahu Akbar!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 05, 2014, 11:49:11 pm
Considering the current situation, I wouldn't fully rule out the possibility that there was a third party involved, concerning those snipers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on March 05, 2014, 11:56:00 pm
Jews did it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 06, 2014, 12:01:28 am
This is from the Daily Mail, so not really credible but:

This women is said to have played 5 different roles and was paid by Russian TV for being pro Russian

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2574131/How-Russian-television-used-actress-pretend-five-different-people-opposed-revolution-reported-normal-Ukrainians-backed-Kremlin.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:07:17 am
Quote from: Logen on March 05, 2014, 11:33:31 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on March 06, 2014, 01:22:10 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:07:17 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 06, 2014, 01:33:06 am
Personally I think the solution for the west was/is to get behind Russian intervention, help and get involved. Instead of sitting around having a cry about it and threatening Russia with sanctions.

When a country is falling apart on your door step it's usually in the neighbours best interest to do what they can to keep it together.

Australia has intervened in every country we are near except New Zealand and in three cases with Military force in one instance invading a country against the governments will to restore order.

The last thing Russia needs is another basket case fucked up country sharing a border with it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tore on March 06, 2014, 01:47:12 am
Quote from: Latvian on March 06, 2014, 01:22:10 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 06, 2014, 01:58:10 am
Quote from: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 06, 2014, 01:33:06 am
Australia has intervened in every country we are near except New Zealand and in three cases with Military force in one instance invading a country against the governments will to restore order.

Russia is following your country example almost to the letter.


 :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 06, 2014, 02:04:24 am
Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2014, 06:28:58 pm
Butan, you're barking up 2 different trees here:

The Maydan movement/government of Ukraine and possible relations to the EU/to Russia are completely unrelated to the Russian forces and the violation of Ukraines borders.

Change of government, and it doesn't really matter how this happens, does not change the borders of a country. It's that simple.

So, discussing who's worse is nonsense when you make a correlation of 2 completely different things.

It's not the same thing but one led to the other. You see, Russia is now a lot stronger than it was years after fall of Berlin wall. And for over a decade, they are watching USA and their puppet (EU or other countries in NATO) doing whatever they please, hiding behind words such as "world will not stand still watching terror unfolds in -insert country-" or " world has united to aid those in need and to bring them democracy". Every time some USA or NATO official comes out to preach something, they use term world to describe USA, Canada, Australia, UK and western EU countries. Guess what, world is much bigger, but who gives a damn, others are weak and poor and don't deserve to be included.

Syria and especially Ukraine are countries with very close ties to Russia. Simply put, Russia couldn't stand the same shit happening again and because it was messing with their own private business, they decided to try to chop off part of Ukraine. I'm not defending Russian action, just saying what I think its general idea behind their action.
 
tl;dr Russia thought they are big and strong enough to pull off same shit USA has been doing for over 50 years. Guess what, they aren't.

Agree with Vovka on one thing, no one gives a fuck about Ukraine. This is just business, as usual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:13:11 am
Dark Blade, have you ever been to the west?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 06, 2014, 07:13:05 am
Quote from: Strudog on March 06, 2014, 12:01:28 am
(click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 06, 2014, 08:08:21 am
Don't judge her so fast. Maybe she has a lot of cd-keys twins?

Yesterdays Donetsk(east), about 10k ppl on streets:
(click to show/hide)

Funny vid(Russian) about "no Rus military in Crimea"

Another(rus too) funny one about mental state of Yanukovich:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 08:16:51 am
Quote from: Falka on March 06, 2014, 07:13:05 am
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she is soo fat..... i think she is american agent on a mission compromising RF Media   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2014, 08:36:00 am
I wish the Ukrainians could capture the "unknown gunmen" in Crimea after getting Putin to confirm once more that there are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine. But, alas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 08:37:47 am
Quote from: Xant on March 06, 2014, 08:36:00 am
I wish the Ukrainians could capture the "unknown gunmen" in Crimea after getting Putin to confirm once more that there are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine. But, alas.
lying politician? oh so new
 who cares

sorry that this is not the American troops after leaving they leave only love and flowers, poppies usually  :P :P :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2014, 08:43:11 am
The lies of politicians in the west tend to be on a bit different scale. What Putin is doing is as if the US would insist that it never invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 08:50:16 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 08:37:47 am
lying politician? oh so new
 who cares
<...>

So in your oppinion putler lying to his people ABOUT INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY AND SENDING SOLDIERS ABROAD is business as usual and there is nothing wrong with this and not really worth caring? Really? Really really? Will he at least get NOT reelected and infamous Bush? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 09:01:00 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 08:50:16 am
So in your oppinion putler lying to his people ABOUT INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY AND SENDING SOLDIERS ABROAD is business as usual and there is nothing wrong with this and not really worth caring? Really? Really really? Will he at least get NOT reelected and infamous Bush? :rolleyes:
I think Putin will be reelected until he does not pervert young boys, or mb he will be reelecter even after dat cos we need to be more tolerant  :P, as our Ukrainian brothers today  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 09:03:04 am
This is the video of a vicehead of Odessa Regional Parliament getting punched by Crimean "bydlo" and getting bullied by policeman "bydlo". He is speaking Russian and he says that nobody ever got forbidden to speak Russian (which is true) neither in Odessa nor in Crimea. Journalist asks if it is possible to have 2 official languages in Ukraine, he replies that it's possible. Funny thing that this guy was actually the first in the line who was supporting Russian language in Odessa and was in former President's team. Tell me more about these people in Crimea. Damn loweducated fools including police. Same shit in Russia, I don't want this in Ukraine.


Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 05, 2014, 11:21:53 pm
So said Kadyrov (head of Chechnya) about jarosz, Sashko and other Ukrainian terrorists (full text). Sorry, only in Russian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFQJJz6ejK0
Kadyrov, usually, fulfills his promises. The more (Kadyrov said so)that these Ukrainians betrayed and Chechens, when there was war. I think that everyone Bandera will soon get acquainted with the personal Bogdan Stashinsky.
Russia's Supreme court announced Yarosha in the international search. Century Putin also fulfills his promises (in such situations is very clean and quiet way).
Thus, as they say in Russia, quite mad Hello!

2 cents about Kadyrov just for everyone.
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This guy is a terrorist himself. He fought against Russians in 90's in the first Chechen war. He was proud to announce that he killed his first Russian in 16 years old (simple math tells everyone that he killed Russian guy before the first Chechen war during the genocide of Russians in Chechnya). During the 2nd Chechen war he betrayed his forces and got bought by Putin. Now he is known as a guy who steals up to 50% of money that are being donated to Chechnya by Putin.  Here are for example his cars (photoes are old, 2009, he has much more stuff these days obviously):

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 09:17:02 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 09:03:04 am
Tell me more about these people in Crimea. Damn loweducated fools including police. Same shit in Russia, I don't want this in Ukraine.
Yep, detach all regions with bydlo from Ukraine and Ukraine become highly educated European country.   :P A week later, you will start killing each other for food  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 06, 2014, 09:38:18 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:13:11 am
Dark Blade, have you ever been to the west?
No way - we're all fascist imperialists. It's pretty obvious in this thread too! :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 09:52:03 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 09:17:02 am
Yep, detach all regions with bydlo from Ukraine and Ukraine become highly educated European country.   :P A week later, you will start killing each other for food  :P

Good propaganda you have there. Here's the budget of 2013. I think you can read that, for all others I can explain/translate: On this map you can see two columns above each region of Ukraine. Yellow means how much money this region GAVE to budget, blue shows how much money it TOOK. I think I don't have to explain why Russian propaganda about Donetks, Lugansk and Crimea feeding Ukraine is bullshit.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 10:13:02 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 09:03:04 am
...This guy is a terrorist himself...
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 06, 2014, 10:16:13 am
Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2014, 09:38:18 am
No way - we're all fascist imperialists. It's pretty obvious in this thread too! :?

Nobody here but us chocolate chip cookies.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 10:28:13 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 09:01:00 am
I think Putin will be reelected until he does not pervert young boys, or mb he will be reelecter even after dat cos we need to be more tolerant  :P, as our Ukrainian brothers today  :P

You dodge questions like a pro. Like a proper agi whore backpedalling :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 06, 2014, 10:32:26 am
Quote from: okiN on March 06, 2014, 10:16:13 am
Nobody here but us chocolate chip cookies.

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I mean... doesn't it feel weird to see the Airforce march with this banner?

I know that it's normal and all but isn't it kinda weird? Not criticizing or anything, just... for me it feels weird to see it :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 06, 2014, 10:36:02 am
Doesn't feel weird to me because I'm able to put it in its proper historical context. Same thing with old buildings here that occasionally have cute puppy decorations, I know they're from before anyone had even heard of einstein so it doesn't bother me. Changing the air force insignia was appropriate, but I think it's kind of nice they were able to keep the academy's flag.

Also damn these wordfilters. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 06, 2014, 10:42:10 am
Guess it's weird to me cuz I don't really have any pre-context which is related to me, contrary to you.
I was just wondering... :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 10:43:22 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 10:13:02 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 10:43:39 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 09:52:03 am
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not mine picture but...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Cicero on March 06, 2014, 10:45:06 am
Quote from: okiN on March 06, 2014, 10:36:02 am
Doesn't feel weird to me because I'm able to put it in its proper historical context. Same thing with old buildings here that occasionally have cute puppy decorations, I know they're from before anyone had even heard of einstein so it doesn't bother me. Changing the air force insignia was appropriate, but I think it's kind of nice they were able to keep the academy's flag.

Also damn these wordfilters. :rolleyes:
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I think Oxygen can not easily used for  breathing at cold weather.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 06, 2014, 10:49:27 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 10:43:39 am
not mine picture but...
(click to show/hide)

What's the basis for drawing the line there, though? Stats for Russian-speakers (2001 census):

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Quote from: Cicero on March 06, 2014, 10:45:06 am
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I think Oxygen can not easily used for  breathing at cold weather.

Diggity deal with it.

That's not to say there wasn't a whole bunch of chocolate chip cookies in Finland back then, but funnily enough, they had nothing to do with the cute puppies. This was the logo of the Finnish fascist movement.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 10:50:48 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 10:43:39 am
not mine picture but...
(click to show/hide)

And again, nice propaganda bullshit. Country is just divided by Dnipro, that's what Russia wants but those regions close to Dnipro never supported Russia anyway. Nice try to divide Ukraine, you probably didn't know that Dnipropetrovsk for example is motherland of Tymoschenko. The only regions who have people to support Russia now are Lugansk, Donetsk, Crimea and 50/50 Kharkiv with Zaporizhe.

Also. Picture is not only bullshit because of that. I didn't lose time and just calculated it all even according to your pic. All those regions mentioned on the map give 52,12 while Kiev only gives 50,63. Good maths with Ukraine dying of hunger.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 10:57:11 am
Quote from: okiN on March 06, 2014, 10:49:27 am
What's the basis for drawing the line there, though? Stats for Russian-speakers (2001 census):

There is no basis. That's what Russia wants Ukraine to become. Also it's nice to see how all Russians became professors in Ukrainian economy, history and demography. Speaking Russian doesn't mean they all want to leave Ukraine and join Russia ASAP. It's as stupid as to say that all Australians want to become US citizens or whatever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 06, 2014, 10:57:47 am
Quote
with Zaporizhe.

No.
Trust me, I speak with many people here about current situation and noone of them supports Russia.
It is more or less like Odessa I think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 11:04:11 am
Quote from: okiN on March 06, 2014, 10:49:27 am
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its not mine picture its from ukranian forum. Its two parts: right bank and left bank + south, you do not know the Russian language so you can not read the link at the bottom with red letters ***
where it says something like that if move the residents from Kiev in their actual places, the situation will worsen and the right side will look more in deep shit)) I just wanted to see if Dave reads information or just write "its bullshit and prapoganda"

so message:
if move the residents from Kiev in their actual places, the situation will worsen and the right side will look more in deep shit)
answer:
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 10:50:48 am
And again, nice propaganda bullshit.
  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 11:34:01 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 11:04:11 am
its not mine picture its from ukranian forum. Its two parts: right bank and left bank + south, you do not know the Russian language so you can not read the link at the bottom with red letters ***
where it says something like that if move the residents from Kiev in their actual places, the situation will worsen and the right side will look more in deep shit)) I just wanted to see if Dave reads information or just write "its bullshit and prapoganda"

so message:
if move the residents from Kiev in their actual places, the situation will worsen and the right side will look more in deep shit)
answer:  :twisted:

Ofc I do say that it's bullshit because you only throw out shit like that. That text that you mentioned makes no sense - according to it those eastern parts will have deep shit troubles if they separate from Ukraine (which is more likely a mistake of someone who made this crippled image because if it's not - it makes no sense).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 11:54:59 am
in any case it becomes dull. Let's get back to the topic of how Russian troops invaded Ukraine  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 06, 2014, 11:57:59 am
What do you think about the Crimean MP's vote?  And about Kiev calling it unconstitutional?
I think it was just a matter of time, with the Russian army there and the amount of ethnic Russian people living there, but would be interesting to see the opinion of people closer to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 10:43:22 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:20:30 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 06, 2014, 12:22:49 pm
So what do you guys think of this opposition sniper theory? (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 12:29:03 pm
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/ukraine-putin-tv-and-the-big-lie-104261.html#.UxhblIXhnfg

Enjoy, maybe you start realizing why people like Ivani and Vovka are so utterly fucked in the head. I said it before in this thread, and I will say it again. The real irony is how these fascist cunts have the nerve to call ukrainians and the west "neo-chocolate chip cookies". The lack of self-awareness is mindboggling.
Crying fucking crocodile tears about so-called "anti-semitism". Sure, the protests were totally all about far-right neo-chocolate chip cookie groups, who totally fought to...install a jewish prime minister. Fucking genius! I guess it's back to unironically calling everything a western zionist plot, yet another favorite of russian media and politicians alike. They probably don't even see the contradiction.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:34:25 pm
Quote from: Tagora on March 06, 2014, 12:22:49 pm
So what do you guys think of this opposition sniper theory? (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet)
Learn Russian language. Very soon it will become necessary. Smolensk has a Polish cemetery. Many of the EU and the US want to buy a place to other cemeteries. In Kharkiv, in the Crimea. Only your people need to understand that war is not a game-shooter. Saving is impossible. Only 1 lvl.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 12:34:33 pm
interview with one of Russia’s most popular tabloids, Komsomolskaya Pravda:
 :lol: :lol: :lol:


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 12:39:08 pm
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Protesters trained in Poland and Lithuania and financed by the west! Don't you know wooden clubs and vaguely rectangular sheet metal is expensive cutting edge military tech?

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Brave completely self-organized militia defence forces of Crimea. Don't you know you can buy uniforms like that in any store? Putin said so, it must be true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 06, 2014, 12:41:04 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:34:25 pm
Learn Russian language. Very soon it will become necessary. Smolensk has a Polish cemetery. Many of the EU and the US want to buy a place to other cemeteries. In Kharkiv, in the Crimea. Only your people need to understand that war is not a game-shooter. Saving is impossible. Only 1 lvl.

Somebody teach me ivani4
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 12:50:24 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 12:51:44 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 12:39:08 pm
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Protesters trained in Poland and Lithuania and financed by the west! Don't you know wooden clubs and vaguely rectangular sheet metal is expensive cutting edge military tech?

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Brave completely self-organized militia defence forces of Crimea. Don't you know you can buy uniforms like that in any store? Putin said so, it must be true.
i think 1st one hurt or mb even kill much more ppls  than the guy in the picture below  :P
so iam sure its a well trained murder from poland's woods   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 12:56:07 pm
I'd be concerned that Putin seems to have completely lost his fucking mind, he's obviously been in the fascist enforced echo chamber created by his state controlled media for so long he believes the rest of the world is just as deluded as the poor fuckers being brainwashed by it inside his country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2014, 12:59:15 pm
Yes, some Russians, even in this thread, actually believe Putin when he says "no Russian troops are in Ukraine." Shows you the level of retardation and brainwashing going on in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 06, 2014, 01:06:57 pm
16.3 the people of Crimea wil vote if the wish to join the Russian Federation.

Is there any chance at all that the referendum will be legit and will not have the result that favors Russia thus giving Putin some legitimacy invading Crimea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 01:11:42 pm
Well obviously, if they don't join Russia then the neo-chocolate chip cookie hordes of bloodthirsty wooden club wielders will commit genocide upon the opressed russian minority. Only swift action by brave militia self-defence forces of Crimea with pawnshop brought second-hand military russian uniforms barely stemmed the tide and prevented a horrible massacre.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 01:13:41 pm
and later will be held fair democratic elections for a new president XNXNXNXNXNX, and I'm sure that olegarhswhich in recent days received post gladly concede them to new elected representatives of the people  :P :P :P)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 01:16:44 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 01:11:42 pm
Only swift action by brave militia self-defence forces of Crimea with pawnshop brought second-hand military russian uniforms barely stemmed the tide and prevented a horrible massacre.
its a  humanitarian assistance from fraternal Russian people, warm clothes and guns ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 01:18:45 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 06, 2014, 12:34:25 pm
Learn Russian language. Very soon it will become necessary. Smolensk has a Polish cemetery. Many of the EU and the US want to buy a place to other cemeteries. In Kharkiv, in the Crimea. Only your people need to understand that war is not a game-shooter. Saving is impossible. Only 1 lvl.

Only maybe YOUR people should understand, that listening to mad putler is not a reasonable course? Or too much vodka/brainwash?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 06, 2014, 01:20:02 pm
Kuujis, drop that stupidly hostile attitude, will ya? How old are you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 06, 2014, 01:21:40 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 12:39:08 pm
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Protesters trained in Poland and Lithuania and financed by the west! Don't you know wooden clubs and vaguely rectangular sheet metal is expensive cutting edge military tech?

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Brave completely self-organized militia defence forces of Crimea. Don't you know you can buy uniforms like that in any store? Putin said so, it must be true.
:D (random photo)
Quote from: Tagora on March 06, 2014, 12:22:49 pm
So what do you guys think of this opposition sniper theory? (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
Wow, some guy has a bolt action hunting rifle. Obviously a CIA, Cointelpro western zionist plot to destabilize Ukraine and ultimately destroy Great Mother Rus. Only possible explanation. The shield made out of sheet metal and the size of a buckler is also a secret american weapon, merely being tested upon the unsuspecting ukrainian puppets, because USA loves to experiment mindlessly with other countries as if they were labrats. Putin said so, it must be true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 01:30:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 01:18:45 pm
Only maybe YOUR people should understand, that listening to mad putler is not a reasonable course? Or too much vodka/brainwash?
How dare u use dat durty alias when you talk about our leader!!! All hail Putin  :P

also iam sure if check all bullets from poor fools who died for democraty on maidan there will  be sign "made in russian federation"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 01:35:51 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 06, 2014, 01:20:02 pm
Kuujis, drop that stupidly hostile attitude, will ya? How old are you?
Really? We will be measuring age-old-dicks now?  :rolleyes:

And I should drop my hostile attitude because... lets see... we are being polite in watching polite peace keeping invasion of another country and bunch of brainwashed <your favorite noun> defending it? :)

P.S. Its not actual me, its my conscious choice to act/write like this. Even though there will be no progress without talking eventually - I just don't have patience and there is zero point in talking to a wall anyway. Well... for now at least, give it a month, half a year, half of Russia will decide that the move was dickish and stupid (antagonizing one of few friendly nations CAN'T be a smart move, can it?) - then we can talk like civilized people... Now? No point :)
P.P.S. + come on... WITTY REMARKS! :lol: The only thing that puts some light on this truly gloomy situation...   :(

P.P.P.S. It kind of works... see?
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 01:30:47 pm
How dare u use dat durty alias when you talk about our leader!!! All hail Putin  :P

also iam sure if check all bullets from poor foolы who died for democraty on maidan there will  be sign "made in russian federation"

P.P.P.P.S. Schizo - do you have a script for putting +? Do you need one? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 06, 2014, 01:37:11 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
Wow, some guy has a bolt action hunting rifle. Obviously a CIA, Cointelpro western zionist plot to destabilize Ukraine and ultimately destroy Great Mother Rus. Only possible explanation. The shield made out of sheet metal and the size of a buckler is also a secret american weapon, merely being tested upon the unsuspecting ukrainian puppets, because USA loves to experiment mindlessly with other countries as if they were labrats. Putin said so, it must be true.
Quote from: Yarl on March 06, 2014, 01:21:40 pm
:D (random photo)
Quote from: Tagora on March 06, 2014, 12:22:49 pm
So what do you guys think of this opposition sniper theory? (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 06, 2014, 01:39:58 pm
i think Kuuji that you should calm your cats, go drink some milk or something, you have been blasting everyone in the thread for like 40 pages, i think we understood your anger after the first 20 pages. 

We asked for the opinions of natives of other countries like Russia and Ukraine, then we blast the fuck out of them for having those opinions rather then trying to have friendly discussions, silly dont you think?



Anyways if anyone reads the news, ill update you:

Putin stated if he receives any sanctions from western countries he will pass legislation to take all western assets in Ukraine........wow, i kind of feel like this will end up with troops from the west in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 06, 2014, 01:41:34 pm
(click to show/hide)
What Antiblitz said + i'm not measuring anything, just pointing out that your constantly hostile tone is childish and adds nothing to this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 01:46:43 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
Wow, some guy has a bolt action hunting rifle. Obviously a CIA, Cointelpro western zionist plot to destabilize Ukraine and ultimately destroy Great Mother Rus. Only possible explanation. The shield made out of sheet metal and the size of a buckler is also a secret american weapon, merely being tested upon the unsuspecting ukrainian puppets, because USA loves to experiment mindlessly with other countries as if they were labrats. Putin said so, it must be true.

It's not even a hunting rifle. It's an airpump rifle, there are a lot of such rifles in Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 01:47:07 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 12:50:24 pm
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Oberyn, Maydan is the masterpiece. started from demonstration for pretty nonsence reason and finished as rebellion with firearms from both sides and rebels are still being called as demonstrators and as innocent citizen who was fightint for freedom even after all anti-consitutional and criminal actions.
that shit in Crimea is just a bullshit. RUssians are doing something and nothing in same time... they just invaded in the land... but they are passive... they are capturing something... but its not a war... wtf is it then? all this situation there is really retarded. the best and funniest way how this can be ended - russians will just leave the Crimea... wtf it was for then?

well I'll post it again
russian occupators
(click to show/hide)

this topic is going in so strange way... as less actions are happening as more pages this topic is getting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 01:53:17 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 06, 2014, 01:39:58 pm
i think Kuuji that you should calm your cats, go drink some milk or something, you have been blasting everyone in the thread for like 40 pages, i think we understood your anger after the first 20 pages. 

We asked for the opinions of natives of other countries like Russia and Ukraine, then we blast the fuck out of them for having those opinions rather then trying to have friendly discussions, silly dont you think?



Anyways if anyone reads the news, ill update you:

Putin stated if he receives any sanctions from western countries he will pass legislation to take all western assets in Ukraine........wow, i kind of feel like this will end up with troops from the west in Ukraine.
Fucked up reality is, that Baltic states (including Lt, where I come from) are next, if this line of thinking continues and that is why I feel like bashing, but point taken. Besides - its been like 19 pages since I last said "fuck you and fuck your brainwashed head"... so thats an improvemet :P

I'll go and prepare some nationalist fighters for the next "oppression of russian speakers" or some such. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 01:54:43 pm
sad that in times when for each man on the eaths these is three videocameras/webcam/photo/phones so few interesting movies ((

Quote from: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 01:53:17 pm
Fucked up reality is, that Baltic states (including Lt, where I come from) are next, if this line of thinking continues and that is why I feel like bashing, but point taken. Besides - its been like 19 pages since I last said "fuck you and fuck your brainwashed head"... so thats an improvemet :P
I'll go and prepare some nationalist fighters for the next "oppression of russian speakers" or some such. :rolleyes:
relax nobody needs your country wherever it is   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 01:57:41 pm
Yes, just like peacefull german troops paraded joyfully among germans in sudetenland, without ever firing a shot. Truly this is a first in history and has never happened before. I actually saw a video with some braindead cunt gushing about how this is revolutionary and Putin is going to change the world with this totally new form of ethnic ultranationalist irredentism. Couldn't possibly be that russophone east ukrainians were pumped full of bullshit propaganda about how they were about to be ethnically cleansed by evil neo-chocolate chip cookie's and thus welcome russian troops as protectors. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 06, 2014, 02:01:46 pm
just another mini update for people who care

Pres. Obama just ordered sanctions upon Russia by executive order, he stated we must lead the way if nobody is willing to step up and be the first ones.  Further notes that the United States has gone into a National emergency, andthat anyone aiding russia or the upheaval in Ukraine has had their assets seized and their passports denied in the U.S.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 06, 2014, 02:12:55 pm
I think that if Dave/Oberyn/Kuujis  continue to scream COOKIE they are really going to believe what they say  :rolleyes:  who said brainwash?

This thread neednt become a circle jerk, where if you're not actively trying to encourage Ukraine you have only right to do little jokes here like and there like vovka  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 02:15:04 pm
I bet Ukraine is feeling pretty fucking stupid about signing the NNPT and trusting Russia not to be lying, backstabbing fucking cunts right now. No way would Putin have dared to do this shit if they still had nuclear capability. GJ Russia, Cold War 2.0 incoming. You just made everyone of your neighbours and former imperial colonies more likely to join NATO, especially if they have a russian minority that needs "protection". GENIUS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 02:15:38 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 06, 2014, 02:01:46 pm
just another mini update for people who care

Pres. Obama just ordered sanctions upon Russia by executive order, he stated we must lead the way if nobody is willing to step up and be the first ones.  Further notes that the United States has gone into a National emergency, andthat anyone aiding russia or the upheaval in Ukraine has had their assets seized and their passports denied in the U.S.
America knows how to make money )murica will not get new lands but atleast will get some moneys ))  very courageous step -  take money from the political dead  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 02:18:46 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 06, 2014, 02:12:55 pm
I think that if Dave/Oberyn/Kuujis  continue to scream COOKIE they are really going to believe what they say  :rolleyes:  who said brainwash?

This thread neednt become a circle jerk, where if you're not actively trying to encourage Ukraine you have only right to do little jokes here like and there like vovka  :P

The only reason I'm using the word fascist and chocolate chip cookie so much is because of the utter irony in the widespread russian propaganda accusing...the west and ukraine of being chocolate chip cookies. If you can't see how ultranationalist Russia is the closest thing to "nasi" in this whole fucking thing you're a fucking idiot or a brainwashed moron. I mean seriously, military occupation to protect your ethnicity brothers in a sovereign nation? Are you fucking blind? Do you know any history at all? Are you completely oblivious to what the state controlled russian media is putting out there?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 06, 2014, 02:26:59 pm
Well, Baltics have been accused of being Nazi by Kremlin since the 90's.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:28:54 pm
Putin doesn't care for the best interests of Russia, only for propagating himself. Crimea is not worth the shit they will get for this all over the world.

On the other hand I would recommend all Russians to take a trip to the west, and see for yourself how a society can be, and you immediately see that the system you have is shit, wasteful, corrupted, thieving, two faced and lying.  (Just if you haven't noticed)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 02:31:50 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 01:54:43 pm
sad that in times when for each man on the eaths these is three videocameras/webcam/photo/phones so few interesting movies ((
 relax nobody needs your country wherever it is   :P
Can't resist...
Tell that to Abhazia, Osetia, Chechnya... ;)

Also - a piece of news from Facebook - Two russian ships sunken intentionally by... erm... well... unidentified walking objects (?) to block waterway for Ukrainian warships: https://www.facebook.com/lilya.alr, can't understand shit (news based on some local newspaper translation), so just for you - kirilica lovers/readers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 02:35:16 pm
The worst thing about this geopolitically is that russian government basically just wiped it's ass with the NNPT.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 06, 2014, 02:40:56 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 01:47:07 pm

(click to show/hide)

this topic is going in so strange way... as less actions are happening as more pages this topic is getting.

and this pics prove what?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 06, 2014, 02:43:16 pm
Clearly they prove that these brave local defenders of Crimean freedom (who are definitely not Russian soldiers) are embraced by 100% of the local population and that only western fascists would ever question their actions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:46:41 pm
It's no question that a large part of the population in Crimea wants to join Russia, the problem arises since this is not enough to just attack and take a part of another country when it's in a weak position..

The only thing this will ensure is that Russia will loose its hold on the rest of Ukraine faster and get another enemy rather than a trade partner at least. Russia looses, Putin wins. Because he gains short term support in Russia proper, makes it very clear to anyone who thinks about demonstrating and creating a peoples revolution in Russia should stop dreaming.

Will happen eventually though, as the system rots and people see the rest of the world growing..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 06, 2014, 02:50:50 pm
I think this, I think that....so many "I thinks" in this thread.......well I think that Bloberyn should start typing the names of people he insults more accurately: its fucking ivani4 not ivani........4 stands for Ć or Č so you can spell it ivanič, ivanich, ivanitch, ivanić, ivanic, anything but fucking empty ivani.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 02:53:36 pm
Ivani can suck my cock, if he's not too busy gobbling Putin's.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 06, 2014, 02:58:10 pm
But why should good, proper russian man choose west over Putin?

http://www.rense.com/general96/putinvobama.html

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 06, 2014, 02:58:16 pm
Quote from: Gnjus on March 06, 2014, 02:50:50 pm
I think this, I think that....so many "I thinks" in this thread.......well I think that Bloberyn should start typing the names of people he insults more accurately: its fucking ivani4 not ivani........4 stands for Ć or Č so you can spell it ivanič, ivanich, ivanitch, ivanić, ivanic, anything but fucking empty ivani.

you can't assume every peasant here can read cyrillic
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 06, 2014, 03:00:18 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:46:41 pm
It's no question that a large part of the population in Crimea wants to join Russia, the problem arises since this is not enough to just attack and take a part of another country when it's in a weak position..


They could have waited 10 years when the new government is more stable, Russia move wouldnt have been more legitimate, just a bit "harder" to pull.


Still if the right to interfere/meddle in can be given to usa/europe to block russia for those who want russia weak, how russia meddling in ukraine to save what can be faced from pro-russia Ianoukovitch disgrace is not justifiable for those who want russia strong? Sovereignty doesnt mean shit really, all that matters is getting your population (and for extra, the world) to accept your view and then you can start whatever you want (bonus points if your military power is 100x stronger than your opponent).


Just look at countries reckognizing the "existence" of a state, then guaranteeing their independance or not, and tell me why its so apparent that its just a mere game of thrones where truth and legitimacy doesnt come into play.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 06, 2014, 03:13:44 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:46:41 pm
It's no question that a large part of the population in Crimea wants to join Russia, the problem arises since this is not enough to just attack and take a part of another country when it's in a weak position..

The only thing this will ensure is that Russia will loose its hold on the rest of Ukraine faster and get another enemy rather than a trade partner at least. Russia looses, Putin wins. Because he gains short term support in Russia proper, makes it very clear to anyone who thinks about demonstrating and creating a peoples revolution in Russia should stop dreaming.

Will happen eventually though, as the system rots and people see the rest of the world growing..

I'm not even sure if Putin actually wins. His power and national support are based on mainly two things: bringing relative stability after the post-Soviet chaos of the '90s, and economic growth. If either of those pillars of Putin's power collapses, Putin will almost surely lose national support. Russia's currency and stock markets are already feeling the negative effects of Putin's invasion, a trend that will only continue if Russia doesn't de-escalate anytime soon. The freezing of Russian assets abroad won't sit well with his oligarch friends either.

The national fervour that Russians may be experiencing now will quickly fade and turn into discontent once actual real incomes are going to feel the negative effects of this madness.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 03:20:08 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:46:41 pm
Will happen eventually though, as the system rots and people see the rest of the world growing..
the thing is the rest of world rots too  :rolleyes:

thats just about propaganda too btw.
Russian propaganda says about rotten West, Western propaganda says shit about russia.
where is the difference? in the names of the terriotorys.

Quote from: Bob_Ross on March 06, 2014, 03:13:44 pm
I'm not even sure if Putin actually wins. His power and national support are based on mainly two things: bringing relative stability after the post-Soviet chaos of the '90s, and economic growth. If either of those pillars of Putin's power collapses, Putin will almost surely lose national support. Russia's currency and stock markets are already feeling the negative effects of Putin's invasion, a trend that will only continue if Russia doesn't de-escalate anytime soon. The freezing of Russian assets abroad won't sit well with his oligarch friends either.

The national fervour that Russians may be experiencing now will quickly fade and turn into discontent once actual real incomes are going to feel the negative effects of this madness.
exactly
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 03:36:53 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 03:20:08 pm
the thing is the rest of world rots too  :rolleyes:

thats just about propaganda too btw.
Russian propaganda says about rotten West, Western propaganda says shit about russia.
where is the difference? in the names of the terriotorys.
exactly

The difference is that I was in the majority of EU countries and I can feel the difference between them, Ukraine and Russia. Unlike you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 03:40:56 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 03:20:08 pm
the thing is the rest of world rots too  :rolleyes:

thats just about propaganda too btw.
Russian propaganda says about rotten West, Western propaganda says shit about russia.
where is the difference? in the names of the terriotorys.
exactly

I have not been to Ukraine, but I have been to Russia and lived the last 7 years in Poland. I thought Poland was a tough life postcommunist country, but after visiting Russia I realized Poland is a paradise of fairness and democracy compared to Russia. In Poland I never saw so many girls near-prostituting themselves, or sick children starving and begging for money. (except homeless alcholics scavenging garbage). I never saw extreme luxury contrasted to extreme poverty in such horrifying way as in Russia. Polish people are not afraid of FSB like in Russia.. There I experienced people only being honest while under 4 eyes, shutting up and licking ass when supervised. It was painful to see. Mind you I live in one of the poorest Polish cities.

I don't care for propaganda. This is what I have seen with my own eyes. You should go and see for yourself too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 03:50:00 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 03:40:56 pm
I have not been to Ukraine, but I have been to Russia and lived the last 7 years in Poland. I thought Poland was a tough life postcommunist country, but after visiting Russia I realized Poland is a paradise of fairness and democracy compared to Russia. In Poland I never saw so many girls near-prostituting themselves, or sick children starving and begging for money. (except homeless alcholics scavenging garbage). I never saw extreme luxury contrasted to extreme poverty in such horrifying way as in Russia. Polish people are not afraid of FSB like in Russia.. There I experienced people only being honest while under 4 eyes, shutting up and licking ass when supervised. It was painful to see. Mind you I live in one of the poorest Polish cities.

I don't care for propaganda. This is what I have seen with my own eyes. You should go and see for yourself too.
lol wat!  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 03:50:26 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 06, 2014, 03:36:53 pm
The difference is that I was in the majority of EU countries and I can feel the difference between them, Ukraine and Russia. Unlike you.
but most of people on this forum wasnt in Ukraine or\and Russia. not sure why you are answering on this quote... it was an answer for people like Oberyn who seems to be informated only from one side.
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 03:40:56 pm
I have not been to Ukraine, but I have been to Russia and lived the last 7 years in Poland. I thought Poland was a tough life postcommunist country, but after visiting Russia I realized Poland is a paradise of fairness and democracy compared to Russia. In Poland I never saw so many girls near-prostituting themselves, or sick children starving and begging for money. (except homeless alcholics scavenging garbage). I never saw extreme luxury contrasted to extreme poverty in such horrifying way as in Russia. Polish people are not afraid of FSB like in Russia.. There I experienced people only being honest while under 4 eyes, shutting up and licking ass when supervised. It was painful to see. Mind you I live in one of the poorest Polish cities.

I don't care for propaganda. This is what I have seen with my own eyes. You should go and see for yourself too.
this is not just about government!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 06, 2014, 03:51:30 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 01:47:07 pm
(click to show/hide)
Oberyn, Maydan is the masterpiece. started from demonstration for pretty nonsence reason and finished as rebellion with firearms from both sides and rebels are still being called as demonstrators and as innocent citizen who was fightint for freedom even after all anti-consitutional and criminal actions.
that shit in Crimea is just a bullshit. RUssians are doing something and nothing in same time... they just invaded in the land... but they are passive... they are capturing something... but its not a war... wtf is it then? all this situation there is really retarded. the best and funniest way how this can be ended - russians will just leave the Crimea... wtf it was for then?

well I'll post it again
russian occupators
(click to show/hide)

this topic is going in so strange way... as less actions are happening as more pages this topic is getting.

Doesnt that prove that the russians kinda lied to begin with. They claimed that shit was going down in Crimea. Yet pretty much nothing was and is happening. They claim that they went there to defend their own people. But from what? There was no violence there to begin with. So in general that means they sent troops inside another country for no reason at all.

 And then theres the cherry on top of the cake. The one thing that has always defined russians being full of shit. The fact that they use the word "fascist" a lot and for no apparent reason whatsoever. They claim that terrorists and fascists took UKR. But thats complete nonsense aswell, as theres basically 0% proof of that and they arent even trying to prove that, because apparently people in the East are small minded enough that they dont need any further explenations. It is kinda wierd that ruskiepropaganda works basically on videogamelogic and they throw the na zi and terrowist sticker on everything they dont like. The more disturbing part is that it actually works. I mean, yea sure, the West throws its fair share of shit at Russia too at times, but its never this primitive and that aggressive.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 06, 2014, 03:55:38 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 02:53:36 pm
Ivani can suck my cock, if he's not too busy gobbling Putin's.


Mind you - If I remember correctly Ivani4 is a cca 40 years old cca 120kg's roundly shaped russian mountain of a man so you better not be too cocky with him. He even sounds terrifying, I've been to SchweinBruders's TS and he was there with his deep-throat non-english speaking voice of a hungry annoyed bear awaiting to slurp over a jar of sweetest french honey.  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on March 06, 2014, 03:55:52 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 06, 2014, 03:50:00 pm
lol wat!  :lol: :lol:
cant agree with thomek because FSB will kill me
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 06, 2014, 03:59:32 pm
Quote from: Gnjus on March 06, 2014, 03:55:38 pm

Mind you - If I remember correctly Ivani4 is a cca 40 years old cca 120kg's roundly shaped russian mountain of a man so you better not be too cocky with him. He even sounds terrifying, I've been to SchweinBruders's TS and he was there with his deep-throat non-english speaking voice of a hungry annoyed bear awaiting to slurp over a jar of sweetest french honey.  :wink:

I guess god/genetics/whatever you like gave him a double helping of brawn to make up for his complete lack of brains.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 06, 2014, 04:00:19 pm
Here is an article written by a guy i know personally, we meet and talk few times a week, he lives in Denmark, but is Ukrainian and been in Ukraine in the late January. Since i was, and am against revolts, we were having some heated discussions, but we keep it civil, as two grown men should :)
 
It's been posted just yesterday, but since it's related to what happened in January, might be not that relevant... Anyways, thought it might be interesting for someone:

http://universitypost.dk/article/feature-bringing-cash-kiev-ukraine (http://universitypost.dk/article/feature-bringing-cash-kiev-ukraine)

------------

Btw, take few deep breaths guys, no need to be that personal.

Не надо их так провоцировать товарищи/господа, вон некоторые европейцы уже слюной давятся совсем... Опять все игрушки на компах про плохих Русских будут.
Хотя и я лично такому баловству не потворщик - тихонько у соседних государств "кусочки" отрезать. Безобразие :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 04:01:28 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 06, 2014, 03:51:30 pm
Doesnt that prove that the russians kinda lied to begin with. They claimed that shit was going down in Crimea. Yet pretty much nothing was and is happening. They claim that they went there to defend their own people. But from what? There was no violence there to begin with. So in general that means they sent troops inside another country for no reason at all.

(click to show/hide)
so this reason technically may work but its not as bad as they(russian media) want to show it
Quote from: Tibe on March 06, 2014, 03:51:30 pm
And then theres the cherry on top of the cake. The one thing that has always defined russians being full of shit. The fact that they use the word "fascist" a lot and for no apparent reason whatsoever. They claim that terrorists and fascists took UKR. But thats complete nonsense aswell, as theres basically 0% proof of that and they arent even trying to prove that, because apparently people in the East are small minded enough that they dont need any further explenations. It is kinda wierd that ruskiepropaganda works basically on videogamelogic and they throw the na zi and terrowist sticker on everything they dont like. The more disturbing part is that it actually works. I mean, yea sure, the West throws its fair share of shit at Russia too at times, but its never this primitive and that aggressive.
you dont know what are you talking about. check what is  politcal party named as  "Svoboda". ideolagy, historical point of view and their actions(political, social etc).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 04:03:37 pm
Quote from: Logen on March 06, 2014, 03:55:52 pm
cant agree with thomek because FSB will kill me

lol I see how that read now, and it was an exaggeration. Point is, the way people in power positions, be it a boss or a institution leader (The one on top where I was, was ex-KGB!) , leads to strong self-cencorship among subordinates and students.. You really have to think who listens, before speaking your mind..

Similar stuff still lives on in Poland though, and I guess in most post totalitarian regimes/structures.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 04:13:26 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 06, 2014, 04:00:19 pm
Here is an article written by a guy i know personally, we meet and talk few times a week, he lives in Denmark, but is Ukrainian and been in Ukraine in the late January. Since i was, and am against revolts, we were having some heated discussions, but we keep it civil, as two grown men should :)
 
It's been posted just yesterday, but since it's related to what happened in January, might be not that relevant... Anyways, thought it might be interesting for someone:
http://universitypost.dk/article/feature-bringing-cash-kiev-ukraine (http://universitypost.dk/article/feature-bringing-cash-kiev-ukraine)

"I have a task. A little community of my friends here in Copenhagen collected money for Maidan – I’m taking it there. In cash. Opposition accounts are being shut down in Ukraine every day."

Yes, the west paid for maidan.. (But yeah, it's not unlikely they got some suitcases of $$$ from the US embassy either.. )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 06, 2014, 04:18:25 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 04:01:28 pm
you dont know what are you talking about. check what is  politcal party named as  "Svoboda". ideolagy, historical point of view and their actions(political, social etc).
Point taken. There's not 0% proof. More like 5-10% then i suppose, they are in the UKR goverment. But they arent the leading party. Definately not enough to call the whole goverment na zis.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 06, 2014, 04:20:39 pm
Thomek, I hope you understand that your personal life experience cannot justify putting a stick on whole countries. Thats like saying Putin is a cookie lover because he uses military force instead of covert ops / diplomacy (oh shit everyone already did).


Still is interesting to hear point of views from persons who went in aforementioned places, but I take it with a pinch of salt. Especially when you see people having their feeling bundled in by nationalistic ideas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on March 06, 2014, 04:22:04 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 04:03:37 pm
You really have to think who listens, before speaking your mind..
As in any society, no? People lost jobs in the western world for their political views, its not uncommon.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 04:27:41 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 06, 2014, 04:18:25 pm
Point taken. There's not 0% proof. More like 5-10% then i suppose, they are in the UKR goverment. But they arent the leading party. Definately not enough to call the whole goverment na zis.
check the "Right sector" then.

as I already said - all this things with nationalism are not as bad as russian media trying to show and surelly not enough for russian invading, but that doesnt makes them better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 06, 2014, 04:33:03 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 06, 2014, 04:20:39 pm
Thomek, I hope you understand that your personal life experience cannot justify putting a stick on whole countries. Thats like saying Putin is a cookie lover because he uses military force instead of covert ops / diplomacy (oh shit everyone already did).
<...>

While it works both ways I guess, one can't argue that "point is proved only if 100% proven accurate". An example cant prove a rule, thats true. However - when in doubt - do you start fighting to prove your point?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 04:35:41 pm
Quote from: Logen on March 06, 2014, 04:22:04 pm
As in any society, no? People lost jobs in the western world for their political views, its not uncommon.

Sure my father was blacklisted. He was a communist. :D But that was in the cold war, not so anymore.

@Butan
The truth is the first victim of a war.. I rely on what I saw and heard when I was in Russia when I make up my judgment of the state. I love and respect Russian people and their characters though, don't get me wrong here. They have many good qualities and the ones I've met are intelligent and aware of the world. Overall, like in most post-soviet countries, the elder generations especially are a bit damaged and hardened by their experiences.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 06, 2014, 05:05:44 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 06, 2014, 01:20:02 pm
Kuujis, drop that stupidly hostile attitude, will ya? How old are you?

Why should he? And why does it matter how old he is ?

Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 03:40:56 pm
Mind you I live in one of the poorest Polish cities.

Which one?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 05:29:52 pm
Time for some personal speculation.. May be far off of course, input welcome.

I think Crimea has been the target of Russia since the end of the Soviet union, and they have just waited patiently for the time to strike.

I used to play a russian developed flight sim back in the day, SU-27 from 96 I believe. It was set in Crimea, and Crimea was the only map. I mean, it was pretty clear to me that even back then, they were practicing and researching and simulating different scenarios for how to take it back. The speed and smoothness in which they have now taken it, supports this theory.

To me, it seems they have just taken a fitting plan from the drawer now that Ukraine is in a weak position. The way that Ukraine has become weak is irrelevant for their plans.

It can even be argued that Crimea "belongs" to Russia more than Ukraine, and I wouldn't disagree completely.. Still, letting Russia just annex part of another civilized country is not something that can be accepted by the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 06, 2014, 05:32:45 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 04:35:41 pm
Sure my father was blacklisted. He was a communist. :D


Son of a commie, how nice.  :wink:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 06, 2014, 05:32:59 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 05:29:52 pm
Still, letting Russia just annex part of another civilized country is not something that can be accepted by the world.

That will cost a lot of badboy points
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 06, 2014, 05:42:03 pm
Quote from: Gnjus on March 06, 2014, 05:32:45 pm

Son of a commie, how nice.  :wink:

(click to show/hide)

Haven't you been paying attention? We're all communists.

Except Paul, he's an honest-to-goodness chocolate chip cookie.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 06, 2014, 05:46:30 pm
Quote from: okiN on March 06, 2014, 05:42:03 pm
Haven't you been paying attention? We're all communists.


I rarely follow politics crap, the only reason I ever started paying attention to this thread was because at one point I accidentally saw a latest post was made by ivani4 so I just had to click on it. The rest is history.  :wink:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 06, 2014, 05:51:50 pm
Not talking about this thread, but I've lost track of the times Panos has called me a communist for criticizing Golden Dawn.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 06, 2014, 06:05:37 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 06, 2014, 05:32:59 pm
That will cost a lot of badboy points

Stop living in the past, it's all about aggressive expansion now.

I can see that Poland is now "Outraged" at Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 06, 2014, 06:20:57 pm
Isn't that the natural state of being for Poland?

I always found it a bit strange how well they get along in Strat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 06, 2014, 06:34:16 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 06, 2014, 06:05:37 pm
Stop living in the past, it's all about aggressive expansion now.

meh
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 06, 2014, 06:40:28 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 05:29:52 pm
Time for some personal speculation.. May be far off of course, input welcome.

I think Crimea has been the target of Russia since the end of the Soviet union, and they have just waited patiently for the time to strike.

I used to play a russian developed flight sim back in the day, SU-27 from 96 I believe. It was set in Crimea, and Crimea was the only map. I mean, it was pretty clear to me that even back then, they were practicing and researching and simulating different scenarios for how to take it back. The speed and smoothness in which they have now taken it, supports this theory.

To me, it seems they have just taken a fitting plan from the drawer now that Ukraine is in a weak position. The way that Ukraine has become weak is irrelevant for their plans.

It can even be argued that Crimea "belongs" to Russia more than Ukraine, and I wouldn't disagree completely.. Still, letting Russia just annex part of another civilized country is not something that can be accepted by the world.


History back up your point completely. Just the fact that Russia had a 250 years long naval contract made in the past for fleet rights, and how it was extended recently, explains why Crimea was important to Russia and still is.

I think most countries that have good advisors have some "programs" that fits probable scenarios like Ukraine seceding and subsequent Crimean annexation and they just followed it, hence the smoothness of the operation.


Some good reasons for why Crimea is important can be found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet#Black_Sea_Fleet_and_Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on March 06, 2014, 06:43:05 pm
On that note, the Danish armed forces have a pretty explicit plan for taking back Scania from Sweden, if the opportunity would ever arise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 06, 2014, 06:45:19 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on March 06, 2014, 06:43:05 pm
On that note, the Danish armed forces have a pretty explicit plan for taking back Scania from Sweden, if the opportunity would ever arise.

Danes have no trucks?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 06:58:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 06, 2014, 06:40:28 pm
(click to show/hide)

Well, also let's not forget that Ukraine gave away their post soviet nuclear arsenal, with the promise that Russia would respect Ukraines territorial integrity. (Read: we give you all our nukes if you stay the fuck off Crimea)

That agreement is now used for toilet paper by Russia.. (as someone else here mentioned)  Stupid deal really.. Should have kept a few nukes as deterrent.. But you were friends, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 06, 2014, 07:33:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 06, 2014, 02:12:55 pm
I think that if Dave/Oberyn/Kuujis  continue to scream COOKIE they are really going to believe what they say  :rolleyes:  who said brainwash?

Oberyn has a good excuse. At one point in his life certain douchebag spent whole afternoon calling him nazi. Since then, he can't think of anything else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BeastSVK on March 06, 2014, 07:44:40 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 02:28:54 pm
On the other hand I would recommend all Russians to take a trip to the west, and see for yourself how a society can be, and you immediately see that the system you have is shit, wasteful, corrupted, thieving, two faced and lying.  (Just if you haven't noticed)
Rather dont atleast not into slovakia czech republic poland, hungary the truth is EU isnt win,EU west side is living of taking countries like mine or ukraina into it...my country slovakia have almost 0% of food production that is bought here all production here is mainly for foreigner companies like in mine city US steel or T systems... , they totaly fucked our internal economic so we cant care about ourselves we are just consumer slaves.. we have no production of our food anymore we are importing  from poland what they dont want gaarbige. even food from CHINA !!!,...only big brands taht came here and we are working for them coz we are cheap labours ..the realy wages here are between 300-500e ..but prices arnt so low as in other Eu member states..we are working poornes as we calling ourselves..our politicians are fucking corrupted and selling even our national parks to international corporations, we have no oil but we have black gold its called gypsy ..they are fucking cancer of our state and goverment are treating them like pets ...why ? eu donating it .. politicians take into their pockets and trinkets goes to gypsies so they holding their mouths shut...for example: white working mother with 3 childrens lets say in suppermarket getting payed like 400e working like a bitch .. and gypsy motehr getting 1100e to do nothing just have like 5 or more childrens..and i can continue but i am sick of this ..i am not telling its worst then in russia but they atleast are not slaves of others..in my opinion its same shit here as in russia..the diference is EU is acting like gold box and inside its rotten shit...
PS. i am not on side of EU and not on Russian side ..and certainly not on US side :D ...all sides are evil and poor ukraine is now frontline..russians see their interest EU see theirs ..hope no more blood will be splited take care ukraina brothers
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 06, 2014, 08:01:02 pm
this topic had a good discussion going 40 pages back, but now it has resulted to name calling and moonspeak, i actually thought this was the only thread in the history of c-rpg forums that would not go full retard.

It still surprises me to this day
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 06, 2014, 08:10:14 pm
NobleBeast, thank you for honest opinion and good wishes, but
Quote
lets say in suppermarket getting payed like 400e working like a bitch ..
What? 400euro, really? In Ukraine you would get like 200 in supermarket, unlikely more.
Aslo, never visited Slovakia, but I was in Czech Republic and prices there, at least for food, were nearly the same as in Ukraine. Of course it is clear that EU is not paradise, that no matter where you live you have to work if you want your life to be good, but I doubt that it would get worse for us in EU.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 06, 2014, 08:20:27 pm
Quote from: Strudog on March 06, 2014, 08:01:02 pm
this topic had a good discussion going 40 pages back, but now it has resulted to name calling and moonspeak, i actually thought this was the only thread in the history of c-rpg forums that would not go full retard.

It still surprises me to this day
Going full retard would imply no chance at salvation. I believe this thread can still be redeemed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on March 06, 2014, 08:25:53 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 06, 2014, 04:00:19 pm
Не надо их так провоцировать товарищи/господа, вон некоторые европейцы уже слюной давятся совсем... Опять все игрушки на компах про плохих Русских будут.
Хотя и я лично такому баловству не потворщик - тихонько у соседних государств "кусочки" отрезать. Безобразие :(
What the @#$% fucking hell, how come this sick prick speaks Russian?  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 08:30:02 pm
Quote from: serr on March 06, 2014, 08:10:14 pm
NobleBeast, thank you for honest opinion and good wishes, but What? 400euro, really? In Ukraine you would get like 200 in supermarket, unlikely more.
Aslo, never visited Slovakia, but I was in Czech Republic and prices there, at least for food, were nearly the same as in Ukraine. Of course it is clear that EU is not paradise, that no matter where you live you have to work if you want your life to be good, but I doubt that it would get worse for us in EU.
UAH/USD = about 5 before orange revolution
UAH/USD = 7-8 when there was economical crisis (Yushchenko as president)
UAH/USD = 9.40-10 after revolution.

viva la revolution! we needed changes! here they are.

p.s. fixed xD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 06, 2014, 08:32:21 pm
Quote from: serr on March 06, 2014, 08:10:14 pm
NobleBeast, thank you for honest opinion and good wishes, but What? 400euro, really? In Ukraine you would get like 200 in supermarket, unlikely more.
Aslo, never visited Slovakia, but I was in Czech Republic and prices there, at least for food, were nearly the same as in Ukraine. Of course it is clear that EU is not paradise, that no matter where you live you have to work if you want your life to be good, but I doubt that it would get worse for us in EU.

It wont get worse but cant expect it to get much better any time soon. You can't expect to live like average German, because if that ever happens average German will again get pissed and start to kill everything around him. Replace German with any other strong country whose citizens are rich compared to others, like USA or UK. They might take you in their company, but only as shoe polisher :wink:

That is why is not worth to spill any blood over this. After all, this is your second "revolution" for past 10 years, we (Serbia) had only one. But oil pipe is going to pass through our country as well, we're in process of becoming part of EU and I must tell you that Gazprom officials weren't happy to hear that. Also major elections in two weeks, last were two years ago. Only purpose of these elections is to give certain party absolute power... and that party revolves around one man who will probably become our new dictator. In few years, I see myself protesting. But not because I'm patriot. That will be my best shot at becoming rich :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BeastSVK on March 06, 2014, 08:51:57 pm
Quote from: serr on March 06, 2014, 08:10:14 pm
NobleBeast, thank you for honest opinion and good wishes, but What? 400euro, really? In Ukraine you would get like 200 in supermarket, unlikely more.
Aslo, never visited Slovakia, but I was in Czech Republic and prices there, at least for food, were nearly the same as in Ukraine. Of course it is clear that EU is not paradise, that no matter where you live you have to work if you want your life to be good, but I doubt that it would get worse for us in EU.
i know you guys have even lower earnings...just wanted to type for some ukrainian guys who dont know how it looks in bortherhood EU country..and yes u have to work but here isnt a lot of work :/..young population with diplomas from univerities work in supermarkets or just low paied jobs ..not all but a lot..also yes ser i realy wish u guys only the good ..was in ukraina love the people...was talking with zero and told also to him i dont like russian ocupation...they sometimes making theirselves rulers of slavic.. but also dont like EU sneaky shits.. countries like yours or mine just objects in their global domination.. for big superpowers like russia,US and machinery of EU...they are good in some things and bad in others and it totaly hard to see what side is smart chose..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 06, 2014, 09:06:47 pm
Quote from: Macropus on March 06, 2014, 08:25:53 pm
What the @#$% fucking hell, how come this sick prick speaks Russian?  :shock:

За выходные выучил. Даже на хуй, без ошибок послать могу.  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2014, 09:14:14 pm
Even on the dick, no errors can send.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 06, 2014, 09:18:08 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 06, 2014, 09:14:14 pm
Even on the dick, no errors can send.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 06, 2014, 09:21:10 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 06, 2014, 09:14:14 pm
Even on the dick, no errors can send.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 09:49:16 pm
Quote from: BeastSVK on March 06, 2014, 07:44:40 pm
(click to show/hide)

Started well, but then went into blaming the gypsies.. If you buy that BS you are a useful moron to the people who wants to distract you away from the real issues.

If you think corruption is bad, take a trip to Russia. And you say they are not slaves to anyone else? They are slaves to their own oligarchy. Ofc similar stuff all over the world, but far from as bad..

What's sick in Russia, is that it's not a poor country. They have huge amount of resources, and size and political power to get a lot of stuff smaller nations cant. Still, most people are poor as fuck, and the few rich are insanely rich. Wake up Russians.. Change your system to something that works. For now, you just work for the Moscov elites.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: zagibu on March 06, 2014, 10:32:30 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 08:30:02 pm
USD/UAH = about 5 before orange revolution
USD/UAH = 7-8 when there was economical crisis (Yushchenko as president)
USD/UAH = 9.40-10 after revolution.

viva la revolution! we needed changes! here they are.

So you get 10 USD for 1 UAH. Not bad. Strong currency.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 07, 2014, 01:52:45 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 07, 2014, 07:30:57 am
In France our politician are corrupted too. So what ? Shall we kick our president out with the help of Russia ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 07, 2014, 07:47:58 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 07, 2014, 07:30:57 am
In France our politician are corrupted too. So what ? Shall we kick our president out with the help of Russia ?
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 03, 2014, 05:59:50 pm
Seeing the Russian threat getting bigger day by day, the French decided to take action.


(click to show/hide)
:P :lol: :P

After the celebration of this event people crawling on the their job
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 07, 2014, 08:39:31 am
Quote from: serr on March 06, 2014, 08:10:14 pm
NobleBeast, thank you for honest opinion and good wishes, but What? 400euro, really? In Ukraine you would get like 200 in supermarket, unlikely more.
Aslo, never visited Slovakia, but I was in Czech Republic and prices there, at least for food, were nearly the same as in Ukraine. Of course it is clear that EU is not paradise, that no matter where you live you have to work if you want your life to be good, but I doubt that it would get worse for us in EU.
This. So many times.

It seems to me that a lot of you forget that we have peace and stability in Germany for easy over 50 years. That is the head-start Germany has.
You seem to expect that you get a similar system and get the same shit in 10 years. What kind of silly equation is that?

(click to show/hide)

There is a saying in German about the generations of a family and their wealth:

Der Ersten den Tod, der Zweiten die Not, der Dritten das Brot.

Translation:

For the first the death, for the second the need, for the third the bread.

I hope the meaning comes across. The reason why it appears that Germany has so much stuff is that my grandparents already started building the "family wealth" after the war. Building houses out of ruins, starting shops. My parents took over where my grandparents stopped, continued working. I am in the more or less fortunate situation to gain the most yet. If you consider that it's going downhill for a few years now, my generation has it's very own problems though but that would go quite off-topic now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 07, 2014, 08:51:01 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 06, 2014, 08:30:02 pm
UAH/USD = about 5 before orange revolution
UAH/USD = 7-8 when there was economical crisis (Yushchenko as president)
UAH/USD = 9.40-10 after revolution.

viva la revolution! we needed changes! here they are.
So, would Ukraine prosper without Maidan ? Viva la Yanukovich?   :rolleyes: Why did he need 15kkk $ from Russia then?  :o

http://www.forexpf.ru/chart/eurrub/
(time period:day)
Can't find any revolution in Russia through  :?

btw, good news from Russia: ex-minister of defence accused of corruption found not-guilty. Seems like all money were stolen by Magnitsky, which he paid to prison officials to force them to torture & kill him(Magnitsky).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 07, 2014, 09:16:10 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 07, 2014, 07:30:57 am
In France our politician are corrupted too. So what ? Shall we kick our president out with the help of Russia ?

No, you should vote for LePen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 07, 2014, 09:47:52 am
Yanukovych is probably the biggest douche on the planet. I mean good god, the man had a golden toilet in his house. How do you negotiate world peace and ending world hunger etc with other EU politicians and just later go home and take a big dump in your very own millions worth toilet. Not to mention the guy didnt have any taste. Who would make a villa out of wood thats basically fit for some forestcabin and then decorate the interior with gold and marble.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 09:51:43 am
Well, golden toilet is a myth, they didn't find it in his residence. Still it doesn't make him any better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 07, 2014, 10:02:57 am
Quote from: serr on March 07, 2014, 09:51:43 am
Well, golden toilet is a myth, they didn't find it in his residence. Still it doesn't make him any better.

He took it with him to Moscow  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 07, 2014, 10:26:57 am
Unfortunately he has to share with Putin. Yanukovych being the seatwarmer and Putin doing the dumping.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2014, 10:30:05 am
Quote from: Segd on March 07, 2014, 08:51:01 am
btw, good news from Russia: ex-minister of defence accused of corruption found not-guilty. Seems like all money were stolen by Magnitsky, which he paid to prison officials to force them to torture & kill him(Magnitsky).

I pitty you guys,  this is so fucking sad...  my parents fled communism in the seventies from two different countries,  and the corruption,  injustice, the total scorn for human life they told me about was so sickening,  and this just shows so many paralells to it :/

Quote from: Molly on March 07, 2014, 08:39:31 am
(click to show/hide)

yo but one more thing we had the past seventy  years:  a system in which the people can thrive,  where every single man has equal rights that are being upheld by a stable, powerful state governed by its people.  (generelization here,  ofc we had our problems)

leshy:  dont know if you really meant what you wrote up there or if its a joke,  but that was a good piece of bullshit.  upright fucking offensive.  One extreme example:  Germany's (flawed) system even allows any european without a job to come here and get welfare for the whole family without ever having payed a cent into germany's social system,  without effectively looking for a job,  the state meanwhile cracking up trying to teach them german,  integrating them and trying to find work for them (also generalization,  but wtf).  thats just so far beyond what you are insinuating. 
read on while listening to the best piece of music ever written (next to anything of frank zappa ofc)  :mrgreen:
(click to show/hide)
  Its just like this:  germany wants a strong Europe,  because in the long term non of us small states can keep up with the world alone.  there is no more single european superpower like before WWI.  We need each other not only to thrive,  but to merely survive the future.  and we need each other strong.
this,  is why Europe is a good Idea.  Because its the only way we can survive as free men in the next few hundred years. 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2014, 10:30:50 am
Quote from: Tibe on March 07, 2014, 10:26:57 am
Unfortunately he has to share with Putin. Yanukovych being the seatwarmer and Putin doing the dumping.

yany refused his golden shithouse to putin and instantly got an "heartattack" :'D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 07, 2014, 11:21:52 am
Quote from: Torben on March 07, 2014, 10:30:05 am
We need each other not only to thrive,  but to merely survive the future.  and we need each other strong.
this,  is why Europe is a good Idea.  Because its the only way we can survive as free men in the next few hundred years. 
(click to show/hide)
Still a little bit of Muslims and children from Africa and Europe will be stronger than ever  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 07, 2014, 11:56:22 am
Quote from: Torben on March 07, 2014, 10:30:05 am
<...>
  Its just like this:  germany wants a strong Europe,  because in the long term non of us small states can keep up with the world alone.  there is no more single european superpower like before WWI.  We need each other not only to thrive,  but to merely survive the future.  and we need each other strong.
this,  is why Europe is a good Idea.  Because its the only way we can survive as free men in the next few hundred years. 
<...>

What we NEED is a fucking common, mandatory and enforced military budget and a common fucking army. (in which separate batallions can't talk to each other  :rolleyes:, but who gives a fuk, aye?  :lol: ) But this needs a separate topic with voting option: do you support United Federal States of Europe akin to bad-old-US of A or not  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 07, 2014, 11:57:28 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 07, 2014, 11:21:52 am
Still a little bit of Muslims and children from Africa and Europe will be stronger than ever  :P

And it's people like this unironically calling others chocolate chip cookies. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so fucking sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2014, 11:58:31 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 07, 2014, 11:56:22 am
What we NEED is a fucking common, mandatory and enforced military budget and a common fucking army. (in which separate batallions can't talk to each other  :rolleyes:, but who gives a fuk, aye?  :lol: ) But this needs a separate topic with voting option: do you support United Federal States of Europe akin to bad-old-US of A or not  8-)

ye and then we send our forum vote to EU parliament,  its about as justified as crimean parliament decision haha  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2014, 12:01:26 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2014, 12:47:07 pm
fucks sake,  hopefully not more people die...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2014, 12:01:26 pm
Well, that guy is suicidal. He's lucky that the Russians didn't just take him and his crew to some alley and shoot them all. "Your only authority is that gun!" As if that's not a better authority than a piece of paper.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2014, 01:15:12 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
Well, that guy is suicidal. He's lucky that the Russians didn't just take him and his crew to some alley and shoot them all. "Your only authority is that gun!" As if that's not a better authority than a piece of paper.

Or he just really wants a raise from VICE  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 07, 2014, 01:16:48 pm
YOLO reporter
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 01:46:18 pm
Crimean "anti-nаzi" forces first beat a journalist from Bulgaria then take his camera and cell phone. This happened yesterday in the very centre of Simferopol. Also yesterday these forces captured TV stations and replaced Ukrainian channels with Russian channels.


Also, Central Election Commission of Ukraine refused to provide lists of people to make referendum in Crimea possible. So you can only imagine how they will vote: there will be more votes for making Crimea a part of Russia than there are people in Crimea including Russian military forces (like in typical Russia with 146% of votes). Also there is no such thing as local referendum in Ukrainian law and you can't announce such questions there. They also changed dates from 25th of May to 30th of March and to 16th of March recently. So this will be completely illegal and useless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 01:54:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
Well, that guy is suicidal. He's lucky that the Russians didn't just take him and his crew to some alley and shoot them all. "Your only authority is that gun!" As if that's not a better authority than a piece of paper.

That's a Vice reporter in a nutshell. Also given that they have to face hairy situations like this all the time, they have probably set up quite a few defense mechanisms. I'm pretty sure they are streaming via satellite non-stop, carry GPS beacons etc. making sure that if shit goes down, everybody knows about it.

Anyways, shouldn't the Ukrainian military shoot on these "unknown forces", given that precisely they are "unknown" ? It seems weird to me that at least when the invasion began, none of the bases defended themselves against unmarked personnel entering restricted areas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on March 07, 2014, 01:59:38 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 01:54:21 pm

Anyways, shouldn't the Ukrainian military shoot on these "unknown forces", given that precisely they are "unknown" ? It seems weird to me that at least when the invasion began, none of the bases defended themselves against unmarked personnel entering restricted areas.

Moscow are still denying the unmarked troops are theirs. I don't see why the Ukrainian military shouldn't start kicking them out. The only explanation is that o wait...they are Russian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 01:59:52 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 01:54:21 pm
Anyways, shouldn't the Ukrainian military shoot on these "unknown forces", given that precisely they are "unknown" ? It seems weird to me that at least when the invasion began, none of the bases defended themselves against unmarked personnel entering restricted areas.

They should. And they were eager to shoot but Kiev forbid to use guns not to start a wide war between Russia and Ukraine.

Blocked Ukrainian marines made an open air concert in their military base, used both Russian and Ukrainian songs. Russians said that they liked it lel :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on March 07, 2014, 02:06:13 pm
How can a nation with a permanent seat on the UN security council condone military intervention in a sovereign state without a UN mandate? It's completely counter to the doctrine of the UN and was the exact reason Putin argued against intervention in Syria.

Furthermore, Russian media states on the one hand that no Russian military forces are in the Ukraine but then goes ahead and states that they have a signed agreement which allows their troops to be in the Ukraine.  Well if there aren't any there then the agreement is irrelevant, so why bring it up?

If a vote to join the Russian Federation had occurred during a time of political stability or when the region wasn't occupied by armed forces (irrelevant of where they are from) it would have legitimacy. Under the current circumstance no governmental authority in the Ukraine can be considered legitimate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on March 07, 2014, 02:11:27 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2014, 01:05:57 pm
He's lucky that the Russians didn't just take him and his crew to some alley and shoot them all.
Cause that's what we do all the time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 02:12:29 pm
Quote from: Casimir on March 07, 2014, 02:06:13 pm
If a vote to join the Russian Federation had occurred during a time of political stability or when the region wasn't occupied by armed forces (irrelevant of where they are from) it would have legitimacy.

It wouldn't be, it's against Ukrainian Constitution. First of all they would need a panukrainian referendum to change the Constitution to allow such votes and that referendum would never pass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 02:25:44 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 02:12:29 pm
It wouldn't be, it's against Ukrainian Constitution. First of all they would need a panukrainian referendum to change the Constitution to allow such votes and that referendum would never pass.

The thing is, a referendum now will not be legitimate regardless of the Ukrainian Constitution. The "unknown forces" forcing the votes to be public wouldn't even surprise me at this point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 07, 2014, 02:34:57 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 01:46:18 pm

this would not have happened if the street patrolled by Russian soldiers, now you see it!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 02:44:13 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 07, 2014, 02:34:57 pm
this would not have happened if the street patrolled by Russian soldiers, now you see it!

The thing is that this street is patrolled by Russian soldiers, it's the very centre of the city  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 07, 2014, 03:04:20 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 07, 2014, 02:34:57 pm
this would not have happened if the street patrolled by Russian soldiers, now you see it!
I choose to read this as an obvious ironic joke, even if someone getting beaten is not very funny :rolleyes: . Thus I will + it! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2014, 03:14:53 pm
ya seems like vovka is xanting around a bit in this thread,  still not funny qq!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 07, 2014, 03:22:44 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2014, 12:01:26 pm

lmao they claim to be local crimean defence force. Anyone to believe that is a bloody retard. I like the balls of steel some VICE reporters have.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2014, 03:26:37 pm
those guys in your sig are also local crimean defence force
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 07, 2014, 03:27:31 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 07, 2014, 03:36:40 pm
Quote from: Logen on March 07, 2014, 02:11:27 pm
Cause that's what we do all the time.

True, they usually just poison them with polonium instead. The rash of unfortunate poisonings among reporters critical of the government since Putin came to power is just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 07, 2014, 03:41:32 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 07, 2014, 08:39:31 am
It seems to me that a lot of you forget that we have peace and stability in Germany for easy over 50 years. That is the head-start Germany has.
You seem to expect that you get a similar system and get the same shit in 10 years. What kind of silly equation is that?

(click to show/hide)

Sorry to break your dream but most european countries had the best years of economy the 30 years just after the war, and not 50 years later from the hard work of your grandparents. Thats called the "30 glorieuses" in France, as in the 30 glorious years, where there was a BIG economical boom between 1945 and 1973. Then afterward there was oil crisis, political crisis, market crisis, and Europe is now in the deepest shit since 1930.

Also I dont know what do your image mean? Seeing as France is in a huuuuuuuuge deficit budget for the last twelve years, I dont understand how we have "+2 billions euros" of whatever?
Germany has no headstart, they just made laws for cheap labours and are dumping their economy like mad. Basically countries that does good right now in Europe isnt because of your proverb (a very wise but not adapted to the situation proverb) but because they made some nasty moves to stay "competitive" in the global world.



edit: Conclusion: Noblebeast country could have profited from a huge economical boom after their homes ravaged by ethnic conflicts, but they didnt even profit from one because Europe is so full of shit they cant even give them that. Thus why since the start I'm really like "wow, Ukraine really want to join EU? Poor guys, they dont know whats gonna happen...".


Quote
Also, Central Election Commission of Ukraine refused to provide lists of people to make referendum in Crimea possible. So you can only imagine how they will vote: there will be more votes for making Crimea a part of Russia than there are people in Crimea including Russian military forces (like in typical Russia with 146% of votes). Also there is no such thing as local referendum in Ukrainian law and you can't announce such questions there. They also changed dates from 25th of May to 30th of March and to 16th of March recently. So this will be completely illegal and useless.

Quote
It wouldn't be, it's against Ukrainian Constitution. First of all they would need a panukrainian referendum to change the Constitution to allow such votes and that referendum would never pass.

What did I just read, are you still trying to prove that Maidan revolt was more legal than Crimea took over? Meh.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 07, 2014, 03:47:54 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 01:54:21 pm
(1)That's a Vice reporter in a nutshell. Also given that they have to face hairy situations like this all the time, they have probably set up quite a few defense mechanisms. I'm pretty sure they are streaming via satellite non-stop, carry GPS beacons etc. making sure that if shit goes down, everybody knows about it.

(2)Anyways, shouldn't the Ukrainian military shoot on these "unknown forces", given that precisely they are "unknown" ? It seems weird to me that at least when the invasion began, none of the bases defended themselves against unmarked personnel entering restricted areas.

1. Yeah I agree, he's not just a VICE reporter, he's a decent reporter, he may be emotionally more empathetic with the UKR personnel, because tbh what decent person wouldn't, but he is just trying his best to show what is happening.

2. Shooting unknown forces? These are russian personnel, their commanders have had negotiations with the UKR forces commanders at a local level, noone is not aware that they are RUS forces, and think why those naval personel have their weapons locked away: ONE shot, that's all it takes, and they all die. The RUS forces are claiming annonimity for international legality, since it buys them a few more days of preassure on UKR to seed and concede before internatiol oppinion catches up.

Think how bad it has to be for those guys now: even if they agree with sentiments that CRIM should be RUS, they have sworn to defend UKR, they are UKR personnel and must try to defend their position. They really are stuck and under siege. Shows how tough it is for the soldiers on both sides of this situation though right now: the occupying SOLDIERS are more likely to help get food to the besieged than local civilians.

As for the naval personel on the Flagship: how can you give up your navy's flagship? They HAVE to hold, either untill UKR seeds CRIM to RUS and they sail away peacefully or untill they a/ Die there or b/ Die as they power out of the harbor. Its gonna suck both ways.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 07, 2014, 03:57:02 pm
About Benderovtzi(west dudes):
Some Ukr TV futurama commercial
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 07, 2014, 03:58:58 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2014, 04:00:46 pm
Quote from: Logen on March 07, 2014, 02:11:27 pm
Cause that's what we do all the time.
No, you're right, Russia has an excellent track record when it comes to reporters. I'd post the names of all the reporters killed in Russia but the forum doesn't allow messages that long.

There's even a wiki page about journalists killed in Russia.

"The dangers to journalists in Russia have been well known since the early 1990s but concern at the number of unsolved killings soared after Anna Politkovskaya's murder in Moscow on 7 October 2006. While international monitors spoke of several dozen deaths, some sources within Russia talked of over two hundred fatalities.[1] The evidence has since been examined and documented in two reports, published in Russian and English, by international organizations."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 07, 2014, 04:06:32 pm
Quote from: enigmatic_stranger on March 07, 2014, 03:58:58 pm
(click to show/hide)
Putin Ukranus
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 05:40:14 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 01:46:18 pm
Also, Central Election Commission of Ukraine refused to provide lists of people to make referendum in Crimea possible. So you can only imagine how they will vote: there will be more votes for making Crimea a part of Russia than there are people in Crimea including Russian military forces (like in typical Russia with 146% of votes). Also there is no such thing as local referendum in Ukrainian law and you can't announce such questions there. They also changed dates from 25th of May to 30th of March and to 16th of March recently. So this will be completely illegal and useless.
even without russian forces there might be at least 50% who will vote for russian way especially after Maydan
(click to show/hide)

now funny things:
Quote
Also there is no such thing as local referendum in Ukrainian
true and very retarded. so if we will make referendum and people from all around ukraine will disagree, Crimea will be part of Ukraine even if 75-100% people from there will agree.
(click to show/hide)

this referendum wont be legitimate for Ukraine(however retarded but its not constitutional) ... and other countrys are not accepting this referendum... yeah... wait. other countryes? what the fuck? its not their bussines!
even in the time of Mayadan, when officials from other countrys comes in Ukraine and says that they are on the side of Maydan and they will help to it... just wtf is it?
so when people from all around the world was interfering in the business of ukraine - nobody was whining... but now... double standars...
(click to show/hide)

Positive changes from Maydan!!! from yesterday from the pay of the people will be taken 10-30% for reconstruction in the Kiev. you can imagin how much money will be needed after vandals and how much money will be stolen.

so ukraine is falled into anti-russian propaganda which shows only bad things about previos leaders( lol its so pointless now... better show what our temporary government is doing) and only worst side... in same time russia just continue the destabilisation in Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 05:42:42 pm
Crimea was long planned by Russians, and have nothing to do with Maidan.

They just waited for Ukraine to be weak.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 05:49:57 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 05:42:42 pm
Crimea was long planned by Russians, and have nothing to do with Maidan.

They just waited for Ukraine to be weak.
proofs? you just think so... but who are you to make announcements like this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 05:59:40 pm
See for yourself, you know Russian mentality. You think Russians would be able to pull off such a smooth invasion if it wasn't already planned and practiced long in advance?  8-)

Do any Russians here think so? Anyone?

Just read the Major of Moscow called Sevastopol his 11th district..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2014, 06:08:41 pm
By the way, why do people say "the Ukraine" "the Crimea" ?

What is the point, I'm curious about that
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 06:09:33 pm
Quote
Positive changes from Maydan!!! from yesterday from the pay of the people will be taken 10-30% for reconstruction in the Kiev. you can imagin how much money will be needed after vandals and how much money will be stolen.

Lol!!!
Where did you get that info? Did they take anything from your or your parents' payment?
Or probably did you read it in some russian news? :D

I'm really surprised you could believe that. No wonder you hate maidan and new government so much then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 07, 2014, 06:11:48 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 05:40:14 pm
even without russian forces there might be at least 50% who will vote for russian way especially after Maydan
(click to show/hide)
Except we will never know because I can bet, that only observers from great democratic comrade will be present. Yeah...



Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 05:40:14 pm
now funny things:true and very retarded. so if we will make referendum and people from all around ukraine will disagree, Crimea will be part of Ukraine even if 75-100% people from there will agree.
(click to show/hide)

And ... well... a nation would have spoken. You have something against that? Or you want to redefine "nation" to better suite your goals? And double standards should not be applied. Make sure they are not. You and your fellow citizens should ensure that. Just like the referendum is a common business.

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 05:40:14 pm
this referendum wont be legitimate for Ukraine(however retarded but its not constitutional) ... and other countrys are not accepting this referendum... yeah... wait. other countryes? what the fuck? its not their bussines!
even in the time of Mayadan, when officials from other countrys comes in Ukraine and says that they are on the side of Maydan and they will help to it... just wtf is it?
so when people from all around the world was interfering in the business of ukraine - nobody was whining... but now... double standars...
(click to show/hide)
1. Financial support was promised from both russia and EU. One side got one, the other - another. Double standards my ass :)
2. Do you feel a difference between a friend coming to your house saying - "you are behaving right standing up to corruption n shit, I support you" and a friend forcing his way into your house in full combat suite and saying "I will guard you from your friends and will ensure that your wife has a right to choose me"? Again - double standards, I agree.

And yes, external intervention is not a suitable way to help Ukraine make its own choices. I agree. Those Russian Unidentified Walking  troops don't agree though... care to bargain with them?

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 05:40:14 pm
Positive changes from Maydan!!! from yesterday from the pay of the people will be taken 10-30% for reconstruction in the Kiev. you can imagin how much money will be needed after vandals and how much money will be stolen.

so ukraine is falled into anti-russian propaganda which shows only bad things about previos leaders( lol its so pointless now... better show what our temporary government is doing) and only worst side... in same time russia just continue the destabilisation in Crimea.
Please quote sources, funny news :) A bit similar to the excuses russia used for initial occupation of Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 06:29:51 pm
Don't you realize you are basically a traitor to your own country Dark Blade? An apologist?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 06:35:24 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 05:59:40 pm
See for yourself, you know Russian mentality. You think Russians would be able to pull off such a smooth invasion if it wasn't already planned and practiced long in advance?  8-)

Do any Russians here think so? Anyone?

Just read the Major of Moscow called Sevastopol his 11th district..
they are acting like a retards and all this doesnt looks like so good planned.
personally I think part of russians was inside the Crimea for case of civil war in ukraine.
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2014, 06:08:41 pm
By the way, why do people say "the Ukraine" "the Crimea" ?

What is the point, I'm curious about that
yeah, there is no such thing which is being called as Ukraine. ethnical eastern ukrainians are too different to ethnical western ukrainians
Quote from: serr on March 07, 2014, 06:09:33 pm
Where did you get that info? Did they take anything from your or your parents' payment?
my parents got their payment yesterday and there already was this rumor... but today there was something new, some people was letted out from the work to go into the bank because its running out of money... and some people was late. then they got info about it.
I am not sure but there was some official announcment about it...
Quote from: Kuujis on March 07, 2014, 06:11:48 pm
Except we will never know because I can bet, that only observers from great democratic comrade will be present. Yeah...


 
And ... well... a nation would have spoken. You have something against that? Or you want to redefine "nation" to better suite your goals? And double standards should not be applied. Make sure they are not. You and your fellow citizens should ensure that. Just like the referendum is a common business.
1. Financial support was promised from both russia and EU. One side got one, the other - another. Double standards my ass :)
2. Do you feel a difference between a friend coming to your house saying - "you are behaving right standing up to corruption n shit, I support you" and a friend forcing his way into your house in full combat suite and saying "I will guard you from your friends and will ensure that your wife has a right to choose me"? Again - double standards, I agree.

And yes, external intervention is not a suitable way to help Ukraine make its own choices. I agree. Those Russian Unidentified Walking  troops don't agree though... care to bargain with them?
Please quote sources, funny news :) A bit similar to the excuses russia used for initial occupation of Crimea.
I am saying not much and things that I am talking about are mostly well known.
friend? lol there is no friends.
rly guys, I wish each of you who care so much about things in ukraine - just come and live here.


tbh all the shit happening in ukraine is happening because of politics because in common life there is not much difference between eastern and western ukraine.


Quote from: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 06:29:51 pm
Don't you realize you are basically a traitor to your own country Dark Blade? An apologist?
I born in this land so its my land... and I born in this country... so am I traitor? I am not breaking any single law and I am traitor? in same time ukrainian leaders are stealing money almost directly from the people for last 20 years and its fine? they are trying to change my mind about this land, change the history by naming stuffs different... I am not following it... and thats why I am becomming not real ukrainian?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 06:40:58 pm
You just seem to support a foreign power stealing a part of your country.

They are there to annex Crimea and make it Russia, not to defend any Russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 06:50:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 07, 2014, 03:41:32 pm
Also I dont know what do your image mean? Seeing as France is in a huuuuuuuuge deficit budget for the last twelve years, I dont understand how we have "+2 billions euros" of whatever?
Germany has no headstart, they just made laws for cheap labours and are dumping their economy like mad. Basically countries that does good right now in Europe isnt because of your proverb (a very wise but not adapted to the situation proverb) but because they made some nasty moves to stay "competitive" in the global world.

Or rather, Germany has been making some of the right calls when France was (and still is) busy making itself a confortable hole in the ground to hide its head in. Democratic governments have the political power to guide a country through crises in an efficient way. But since the oil crisis, some of them have been lacking the will, stamina, intelligence, ideology or any combination of the latter to do what needed to be done.

Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2014, 06:08:41 pm
By the way, why do people say "the Ukraine" "the Crimea" ?

What is the point, I'm curious about that

The articles are the hard for the slavic and language. How the decision to put or not to put article ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 06:59:21 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 06:40:58 pm
You just seem to support a foreign power stealing a part of your country.

They are there to annex Crimea and make it Russia, not to defend any Russians.
am I supporting anyone?  :rolleyes:
things in Crimea should be in Crimea's hands. I was there not once... and as I know alot of people there dont feel themself as ukrainians. I am not allowed to do anything with their choise because I am not from their land.
my land and ukraine as country, are different things and only world's history made it the same thing even when it actually isnt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 07:02:50 pm
https://twitter.com/StopFakingNews
http://www.stopfake.org/en

There is collection of most popular fake news about Ukraine

"from yesterday from the pay of the people will be taken 10-30% for reconstruction in the Kiev" is also there.

Lack of cash in banks has nothing to do with reconstruction of Kiev, and don't worry, people will get their money.

http://www.stopfake.org/naloga-na-majdan-ne-sushhestvuet/

Added: However there can be frauds that want to make money on situation in country. If it is so - people should learn to protect their rights, to accept this silently and then keep talking about how bad is our new government would be really bad decision.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 07:08:50 pm
oh wait do you think Kiev will be reconstructed by the money from Kiev adminstration? how naive you are... well we will see it better soon or later.
// in same time some people who my parents know in real life already got -10% no matter you belive it or you dont.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 07:09:58 pm
Could you tell where are they working? It is really interesting.

Quote
oh wait do you think Kiev will be reconstructed by the money from Kiev adminstration? how naive you are... well we will see it better soon or later.

Also yes, of course. we all are naive and only wise Dark Blade knows how everything works and how bad are all people around.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 07:14:19 pm
About reconstruction of Kiev - Poroshenko promised he would get expenses on himself. Since he is main candidate for president, I expect him to fulfill the promise, no matter if he is good guy or asshole.
And even if not - money would be brought from budget, yes, from taxes, but there wouldn't be any special taxes "for reconstruction".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 07:16:32 pm
my parents - Kriviy Rih Mittal Steal (not sure how to spell it right), my uncle - something industrial in Komsomolsk.

lol Serr... well as I just said already... soon or later we will see it.

you know what worth promises of our officials and businessmen. if they wont call it as "for recunstructions" does it makes any difference?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 07:21:00 pm
Oh my god, you want to tell that they are charging that sort of taxes from factory that belongs to foreigner? Not even russian?
If it is true(which I am sure is not) - there will be really huge scandal soon.

For others, this is the company we are talking about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittal_Steel_Company
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 07:22:34 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 05:40:14 pm
[...]

Okay. I just don't read the whole text of yours. Because if you think that justifying one crime by another is okay - then you should be isolated from the society. Did I say that throwing Molotovs in policemen was a good idea? Read my first post in this thread. I don't think that those who were shooting at policemen or throwing Molotov cocktails are any better than regular crime elements. And for sure actions of those people do not justify actions of people in Crimea, especially Russian military forces as they have neither a justified reason nor a right to do what they do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 07:24:46 pm
Quote from: serr on March 07, 2014, 07:21:00 pm
Oh my god, you want to tell that they are charging that sort of taxes from factory that belongs to foreigner? Not even russian?
If it is true(which I am sure is not) - there will be really huge scandal soon.
actually I am using to wonder too but its so.

as I said not once - I wish to be wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 07:28:37 pm
I didnt say anything to you personally, Dave.
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 07:22:34 pm
Okay. I just don't read the whole text of yours. Because if you think that justifying one crime by another is okay - then you should be isolated from the society. Did I say that throwing Molotovs in policemen was a good idea? Read my first post in this thread. I don't think that those who were shooting at policemen or throwing Molotov cocktails are any better than regular crime elements. And for sure actions of those people do not justify actions of people in Crimea, especially Russian military forces as they have neither a justified reason nor a right to do what they do.
did I said that justifying one crime by another is okay? just I totaly dislike the fact that people, especially on this forum, are closing eyes on the unlegitimate actions on the maydan, foreign countrys that are infereting in stuffs in ukraine etc.

Dave, you are not reading what I am writing but making some findings... seems like you are looking at me throught some stereotypes. and then you says to some people that they are victims of propaganda? lol
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BeastSVK on March 07, 2014, 07:29:32 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2014, 09:49:16 pm
Started well, but then went into blaming the gypsies.. If you buy that BS you are a useful moron to the people who wants to distract you away from the real issues.

If you think corruption is bad, take a trip to Russia. And you say they are not slaves to anyone else? They are slaves to their own oligarchy. Ofc similar stuff all over the world, but far from as bad..

What's sick in Russia, is that it's not a poor country. They have huge amount of resources, and size and political power to get a lot of stuff smaller nations cant. Still, most people are poor as fuck, and the few rich are insanely rich. Wake up Russians.. Change your system to something that works. For now, you just work for the Moscov elites.
Well i am not blaming gypsies i am blaming mine goverment in their suport of this and of course EU have hands in this ..and dont tell me if i am buying that... they getting houses from EU and they are destroying them then they get new ..montly rent is 100e and THEY DIDINT PAY EVEN FUCKING CENT ...normal working population when own flat bought for hard worked money u paying like 300e for rent with electricity and all they have it for 100 just to be gypsie...and the politicians like it coz they can steal mon eys from money EU is giving ..and Ofc eu know this they are happy politicians are happy gypsies are happy ...romantic...anyway its not the point of this discussion..so your another point about russia yes i didint tell its better and yes i must admit i told bullshit that they are not slaves yes tehy are u have right its same there as in EU ..they work for moscow we work for west countries...have normal goverment without corruption its utopia..and there always will be some fuckers who want controling all and making slaves of other..some for money some for feel of power ..its just fucking human nature of few that ruining this world..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2014, 08:01:25 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 06:35:24 pm
yeah, there is no such thing which is being called as Ukraine. ethnical eastern ukrainians are too different to ethnical western ukrainians

I think you misunderstood the question a bit.

Anyway after this you say that;

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 07, 2014, 06:35:24 pm
tbh all the shit happening in ukraine is happening because of politics because in common life there is not much difference between eastern and western ukraine.

wut

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 07, 2014, 08:02:11 pm
Quote from: serr on March 07, 2014, 07:21:00 pm
If it is true(which I am sure is not) - there will be really huge scandal soon.

If its true, same as with snipers shooting cops, it will be forgotten as long as big Russia is looming.

But even then, I'm 90% sure new Kiev government isnt going to make everyone happy in Ukraine and you will see that in the coming months.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 07, 2014, 08:05:26 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 06:50:45 pm
The articles are the hard for the slavic and language. How the decision to put or not to put article ?
Better not to use them at all since they are useless in most cases. For example: "nobody heard anything about president since his last speech in Rostov." There are a lot of rumors about his death or madness, btw  :rolleyes:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 08:14:19 pm
That's the feels of someone who can't shit on a gold toilet anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 07, 2014, 08:22:54 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 07, 2014, 08:02:11 pm
But even then, I'm 90% sure new Kiev government isnt going to make everyone happy in Ukraine and you will see that in the coming months.

I'm 100% sure, cause it's not possible to make everyone happy. And ofc ukraine and the quality of life there won't be changed in a few months, cause it's not possible as well. New ministers aren't magicians who will make everyone rich and happy with a flick of the wand. It's always a process, long, hard and disappointing process. People in Ukraine have to be realistic about it, as Logen's dad used to say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 07, 2014, 08:51:41 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 08:14:19 pm
That's the feels of someone who can't shit on a gold toilet anymore.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 09:03:49 pm
Quote
If its true, same as with snipers shooting cops, it will be forgotten as long as big Russia is looming.

No, it wouldn't. However I'm 100% sure it is fake. Things just don't work that way.

Quote
But even then, I'm 90% sure new Kiev government isnt going to make everyone happy in Ukraine and you will see that in the coming months.

Of course not, even worse, I'm afraid people will get much angrier because new government has to make very unpopular actions. Actions that had to be done years ago. Just because our previous governments were populists and didn't want to worsen their ratings. It applies not only for last government of Azarov, but for Tymoshenko's one as well.
Like they didn't accept conditions of IMF because they included lowering social standards, explaining it by caring for people. Like those conditions were made to make people lives worse, not because economical situation demanded it...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 10:39:36 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2014, 08:01:25 pm
I think you misunderstood the question a bit.

Anyway after this you say that;

wut

That's why I gave up reading whole huge texts of him. Sometimes he manages to contradict his own words in the same message.

Meanwhile Ukrainian tanks are heading Crimea from my city.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 07, 2014, 10:43:03 pm
Are you sure about Crimea? They won't pass Perekop.
I'd say Kherson region is more likely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 10:44:22 pm
Quote from: serr on March 07, 2014, 10:43:03 pm
Are you sure about Crimea? They won't pass Perekop.
I'd say Kherson region is more likely.

They are only heading it. Obviously they won't be able to pass blocked roads in Crimea. So I guess they will stop where you said.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 11:02:52 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 10:39:36 pm
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From this perspective those tanks look more like T-90 than T-84
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 11:19:59 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 11:02:52 pm
From this perspective those tanks look more like T-90 than T-84

I don't know how you distinguish them from this far. AFAIK Ukraine has no T-90s. It might be T-72 (T-90's other name was T-72B).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2014, 11:25:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 11:19:59 pm
I don't know how you distinguish them from this far.

Kafein is good at recognizing all kinds of..

 :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 11:34:49 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2014, 11:25:55 pm
Kafein is good at recognizing all kinds of..

 :mrgreen:

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One day. One day you'll slip. That day, I'll be there. I'll be there and I will remind you of this moment you ruined my life. Maybe it will be tomorrow. Maybe one year from now. But one day I'll get you and you'll never see it coming. You will live in fear of this moment for the rest of your life. The inevitable error you will try to avoid. You will try to control yourself but it will only accelerate your demise. You'll slowly be driven mad out of waiting. Each day of being perfect will be a new ordeal. At some point you will try to convince yourself that it was lies. But I'll never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2014, 11:36:05 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 11:36:39 pm
How can you not react
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 07, 2014, 11:43:06 pm
Tanks, huh? I hope this doesn't give Russians excuse to use force, because that's probably what they have been waiting for all along.

I think Ukrainian Government has gathered a lot of sympathy from all over the world, mainly because restrain it had showed in difficult situation. I hope they realize that and that they wont do anything stupid now, that would be shame.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 12:06:28 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 07, 2014, 11:43:06 pm
Tanks, huh? I hope this doesn't give Russians excuse to use force, because that's probably what they have been waiting for all along.

I think Ukrainian Government has gathered a lot of sympathy from all over the world, mainly because restrain it had showed in difficult situation. I hope they realize that and that they wont do anything stupid now, that would be shame.
but in same time people on Maydan was standing not for this government, people was standing against previos government. those "leaders" already was disappointment 2004-5... not sure how did the world forgot it  :|

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 08, 2014, 12:15:44 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 12:06:28 am
but in same time people on Maydan was standing not for this government, people was standing against previos government. those "leaders" already was disappointment 2004-5... not sure how did the world forgot it  :|

Because human race has no memory and see the light only from narrow windows...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 08, 2014, 12:20:06 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 12:06:28 am
but in same time people on Maydan was standing not for this government, people was standing against previos government. those "leaders" already was disappointment 2004-5... not sure how did the world forgot it  :|

What? Dude, what's wrong with you? First of all, this is an interim Government, there will be elections soon enough. Second, it was elected in the Parliament, and huge majority of MPs voted for it. Third, didn't Prime Minister and all of the Ministers receive acclamation on Maidan before they were nominated in the first place? So again, what's wrong with you? I understand you have some sort of Stockholm syndrome and  very much miss the douche with golden toilets, but c'mon, get serious.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 01:14:17 am
what kind of acclamanation you are talking about? its was like "- brothers, the person "n" will be the new "m" of Ukraine! what do you think?  - YES!". like we dont know how this works.
in same time nobody was asking the rest of ukraine  :rolleyes:
about voting in Parlament. well most of members from previos government just escaped the country because they was scared of politcial persecutions from the radical part of maydan. they also was scared because all what they stole for last 10-20 years will be found and then they'll have the same trouble as our official president.
but as you said - its temporary  government so there is still a question what will be on the president elections especially since Yarosh applied as a candidate.

I dont care how much was stolen by the previos government. this men on the Maydan promiced so much things... I dont belive them and thats why I am interested in their actions. they destoroyed the peace and stability in the country with words about better life. I want to live like they says as fast as much they was promising.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 08, 2014, 01:22:53 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 01:14:17 am
what kind of acclamanation you are talking about? its was like "- brothers, the person "n" will be the new "m" of Ukraine! what do you think?  - YES!". like we dont know how this works.
in same time nobody was asking the rest of ukraine  :rolleyes:

That's exactly what acclamation is. You said that they do not have support from Maidan, which is obviously bullshit.

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 01:14:17 am
about voting in Parlament. well most of members from previos government just escaped the country because they was scared of politcial persecutions from the radical part of maydan. they also was scared because all what they stole for last 10-20 years will be found and then they'll have the same trouble as our official president.

The Parliament had quorum, and even more MPs were present.


Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 01:14:17 am
I dont care how much was stolen by the previos government. this men on the Maydan promiced so much things... I dont belive them and thats why I am interested in their actions. they destoroyed the peace and stability in the country with words about better life. I want to live like they says as fast as much they was promising.

That's your problem. You preferred Yanukovich, fine. Democracy means that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how stupid it is. No one denied you the right to vote, you will get your chance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 08, 2014, 02:31:22 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 08, 2014, 01:22:53 am
That's exactly what acclamation is. You said that they do not have support from Maidan, which is obviously bullshit.
I am pretty sure that they prefer them in same way like I prefer Yanukovich - because everyone else are even worse... but is it real support?
Quote from: Corwin on March 08, 2014, 01:22:53 am
That's your problem. You preferred Yanukovich, fine. Democracy means that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how stupid it is. No one denied you the right to vote, you will get your chance.
its just their own opinion until it doesnt gives a quack to other people. millions of people was voting for Yanukovich... majority was voting for him... and from such minor reasons its became revolution just happened. and noone was asking my opinion about temporary government so they actually denied my vote.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 08, 2014, 02:38:16 am
Quote from: Kafein on March 07, 2014, 11:36:39 pm
How can you not react

I didn't know what to respond, really
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on March 08, 2014, 07:52:55 am
Quote from: Casimir on March 07, 2014, 02:06:13 pm
How can a nation with a permanent seat on the UN security council condone military intervention in a sovereign state without a UN mandate? It's completely counter to the doctrine of the UN and was the exact reason Putin argued against intervention in Syria.

Hi. Not joining this debate any further buuuut... this sentence is hilarious.

Thanks, enjoy the discussion folks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 08, 2014, 07:57:59 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2014, 10:39:36 pm
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I hate it when I spawn in Berezino.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 09:19:24 am
Quote from: Butan on March 08, 2014, 12:15:44 am
Because human race has no memory and see the light only from narrow windows...

I agree, Mr. Neville Chamberlain. Tell me more about how this fascist country invading a sovereign nation for ultranationalist ethnic irredentist reasons is totally the same as the evil West with it's colonies and imperialism, or actually more justified. It's not like false moral equivalencies and "It's all grey, after all" was exactly the bullshit used to justify bending over and letting Germany fuck it's neighbours in the ass. No memory indeed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 10:04:53 am
About chocolate chip cookies : they just took the power in Ukraine after violent riots...

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 10:05:48 am
Yes, chocolate chip cookies put the jewish prime minister in power, fucking genius. You're a fucking idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 08, 2014, 10:08:32 am
Quite accurate article, at least at describing situation in Ukraine part.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/03/04/5-important-facts-that-the-western-press-is-getting-terribly-wrong-in-ukraine/

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 08, 2014, 10:19:34 am
Being officially Russian comes with the duty to follow a certain way of life. I forsee a krim future for that peninsular.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on March 08, 2014, 10:46:27 am
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Russia is the brown dog and Ukraine the black one ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 08, 2014, 11:16:57 am
It's more about grown men squatting down in the middle of the street to watch dogs mate. Maybe that's common in France too though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 08, 2014, 12:06:22 pm
while obviously I get the point your making, those look like 2 staffordshire bullterriers, could be mating them has a legitimate breeding interest to their owners...

BTW props to UKR last I saw they were still not being bullied out of their land. Good for them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 08, 2014, 12:44:43 pm
Pretty interesting piece, if a bit short. Does deserve more attention though:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/08/russia-former-soviet-republics (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/08/russia-former-soviet-republics)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 08, 2014, 01:52:37 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 09:19:24 am
I agree, Mr. Neville Chamberlain. Tell me more about how this fascist country invading a sovereign nation for ultranationalist ethnic irredentist reasons is totally the same as the evil West with it's colonies and imperialism, or actually more justified. It's not like false moral equivalencies and "It's all grey, after all" was exactly the bullshit used to justify bending over and letting Germany fuck it's neighbours in the ass. No memory indeed.

Russia wants to make this looks like Yugoslavian scenario. That is why they are denying presence of their troops in Ukraine.

What they want is, to wait for referendum to happen and then, in case voting goes how they are planning, provoke Ukraine to come to Crimea with military forces. If that happens, doesn't matter if referendum results are shady or not. It's basically bigger part of the country attacking smaller that wants out (in case of YU, those were Slovenia and Croatia).

After that anything could happen, even WW3 if Russia decides to "protect" "independent" Crimea. Of course WW3 will never be NATO vs Russia. If that conflict ever starts and Russia don't back off after 6 months, other countries will follow suit and attack their nearest neighborhood (China vs Japan, Iran vs Izrael and so on).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 08, 2014, 02:29:56 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 09:19:24 am
I agree, Mr. Neville Chamberlain. Tell me more about how this fascist country invading a sovereign nation for ultranationalist ethnic irredentist reasons is totally the same as the evil West with it's colonies and imperialism, or actually more justified. It's not like false moral equivalencies and "It's all grey, after all" was exactly the bullshit used to justify bending over and letting Germany fuck it's neighbours in the ass. No memory indeed.


As much as I agreed and continue to agree on shades of grey, and the fact that Russia is obviously pulling some bullshit justifications on Ukraine... But, you got to be kidding using a WW2 comparison, especially since Russia and Germany werent really buttbuddies then, and that Russia used anti-nazi propaganda (which is now re-utilized wrongfully on Ukraine) and pulled their weight toward the end of the third reich.


Oberyn... you have 1 point godwin per post in this thread, do you really believe you are being useful in this debate?


Russia accusations of cookie lovers in Ukraine is bullshit, they dont hold any major influence right now (denying they have minor influence is equally wrong though) we can all agree on that, maybe Dark Blade doesnt but sometimes we dont think the same!
So now, I would like you to stop calling Russia cookie lovers too, and continue to discuss on facts and not who's the best democratic country in the world  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 08, 2014, 05:11:40 pm
Butan you don't get it, the new Ukrainian government imposters are the result of a gay jew neonavisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
i conspiracy, started by a muslim calling intellectuals and students to protest on maidan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 05:14:41 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 08, 2014, 02:29:56 pm

As much as I agreed and continue to agree on shades of grey, and the fact that Russia is obviously pulling some bullshit justifications on Ukraine... But, you got to be kidding using a WW2 comparison, especially since Russia and Germany werent really buttbuddies then, and that Russia used anti-nazi propaganda (which is now re-utilized wrongfully on Ukraine) and pulled their weight toward the end of the third reich.


Oberyn... you have 1 point godwin per post in this thread, do you really believe you are being useful in this debate?


Russia accusations of cookie lovers in Ukraine is bullshit, they dont hold any major influence right now (denying they have minor influence is equally wrong though) we can all agree on that, maybe Dark Blade doesnt but sometimes we dont think the same!
So now, I would like you to stop calling Russia cookie lovers too, and continue to discuss on facts and not who's the best democratic country in the world  :shock:

Russia since Putin IS a fascist government. You're obviously too ignorant to understand that though. For anyone who wants to actually understand Russia and it's geopolitics in the 21st century, I wholeheartedly encourage them to read this book: it is literally the foundation of the Russian government since Putin. Cut through all the bullshit emotional propaganda and false moral equivalencies. Read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 08, 2014, 06:07:26 pm
Colonel Oberyn/Xant!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 08, 2014, 06:09:06 pm
Haha I love this image
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 08, 2014, 06:30:17 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 08, 2014, 05:11:40 pm
Butan you don't get it, the new Ukrainian government imposters are the result of a gay jew neonazvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
i conspiracy, started by a muslim calling intellectuals and students to protest on maidan.

Seems legit.

You forgot extra-terrestrial terrorists from Venus wanting to create beachhead to invade Earth, Ukraine being a strategical point for sub-espace entry  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 08, 2014, 06:56:56 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 08, 2014, 06:30:17 pm
Seems legit.

You forgot extra-terrestrial terrorists from Venus wanting to create beachhead to invade Earth, Ukraine being a strategical point for sub-espace entry  :P

My point is the bullshit the russian press is trying to impose to the world is contradictory at the most basic level, calling their enemy both jew and navisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi. Actually, Berkut were being told they were the anti jew conspiracy police, russians are told the EU wants to make Ukraine gay, and eastern ukrainians are told maidan protesters are nvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
azvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
i.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 08, 2014, 07:07:55 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 08, 2014, 06:56:56 pm
My point is the bullshit the russian press is trying to impose to the world is contradictory at the most basic level, calling their enemy both jew and chocolate chip cookie. Actually, Berkut were being told they were the anti jew conspiracy police, russians are told the EU wants to make Ukraine gay, and eastern ukrainians are told maidan protesters are nazvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
i.


It could sound quite intriguing, but during WW2 a part of the anti-cookie militias in europe who fought to liberate themselves from german occupation, didnt have much love for the jew people.

Being anti-jew and anti-cookie is not incompatible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 08, 2014, 07:14:28 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 08, 2014, 07:07:55 pm

It could sound quite intriguing, but during WW2 a part of the anti-cookie militias in europe who fought to liberate themselves from german occupation, didnt have much love for the jew people.

Being anti-jew and anti-cookie is not incompatible.

And that has literally nothing to do with what I've said.


Also read this, it's quite funny seeing RT trying to make it look like Putin has not completely lost his mind (or pretended to do so) during that last conference : http://rt.com/news/putin-statement-ukraine-russia-743/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 08, 2014, 07:19:08 pm
What I meant is, calling Ukraine both cookie and jew nest is not unbelievable for a part of the population (namely, those who dont like cookie AND jews). I am not discussing the fact its true or not, just that there is nothing to be shocked about for those that dislike both, and those people already existed in the WW2. You can check history of countries that we are talking about right now and their direct neighbours.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 08, 2014, 07:26:03 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 08, 2014, 07:19:08 pm
What I meant is, calling Ukraine both cookie and jew nest is not unbelievable for a part of the population (namely, those who dont like cookie AND jews). I am not discussing the fact its true or not, just that there is nothing to be shocked about for those that dislike both, and those people already existed in the WW2. You can check history of countries that we are talking about right now and their direct neighbours.
Why does it look like "everything that fits my view becomes compatible as need be"?  :rolleyes:

Just wake up and wake up your neighbors.

A famous poem by one German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...) if applied to EU INACTION towards chocolate chip cookie russia sounds about right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 08, 2014, 07:49:37 pm
Yanukovich has this typical dictator's bad taste, however I can only give credit for possessing Horch collectibles and other historic cars.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 08, 2014, 07:59:17 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 05:14:41 pm
Russia since Putin IS a fascist government.

And what it was under Yeltsin, a fairyland?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 08, 2014, 08:03:42 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 08, 2014, 07:59:17 pm
And what it was under Yeltsin, a fairyland?

Yes, proof:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 08, 2014, 08:11:21 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 08, 2014, 07:59:17 pm
And what it was under Yeltsin, a fairyland?
It was zagogulina.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 08, 2014, 08:48:17 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 08:56:23 pm
It is a CFR conspiracy. Or, I should say : business as usual. Like in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Tchechenia, Kosovo etc.

Police and rioters has been shot by Nato special forces and all that new pro-west oligarchy was paid by Soros foundation.
 Ukrainian people will be raped by UE as we have been. You want freedom ? Stay away from USA and EU. We just want to loot your country.
It's not a question of n a zi or jew here, it's a question of NWO imperialism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 08, 2014, 09:00:27 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 08:56:23 pm
It is a CFR conspiracy. Or, I should say : business as usual. Like in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Tchechenia, Kosovo etc.

Police and rioters has been shot by Nato special forces and all that new pro-west oligarchy was paid by Soros foundation.
 Ukrainian people will be raped by UE as we have been. You want freedom ? Stay away from USA and EU. We just want to loot your country.
It's not a question of n a zi or jew here, it's a question of NWO imperialism.

If we stay away from EU and NATO then Russia will annex more than a half of my country.

Meanwhile today:

Ukrainian tanks under Kiev are getting ready to be transported somewhere.

Lviv's (Ukraine) airborne is moving out for "training"

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 09:12:44 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 08, 2014, 07:59:17 pm
And what it was under Yeltsin, a fairyland?

Slightly less fascist, but yes, that's when it started gaining more hold as a popular philosophy among the elites, notably the military.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:14:58 pm
So, Russia would annex the half of your country that WANT to be annexed.
Western Ukrainians have been enslavered by Poles for centuries and you want to obey to Brussel and his NAFTA shit now? Slave a day, slave always ?
 EU is just a province created by US. And now the US empire want to place his Nato troops at the Russia's gate. What will be the next step ?

Obviously some ukrainian do not want to be westerners, so let them go.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 09:17:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 08:56:23 pm
It is a CFR conspiracy. Or, I should say : business as usual. Like in Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Tchechenia, Kosovo etc.

Police and rioters has been shot by Nato special forces and all that new pro-west oligarchy was paid by Soros foundation.
 Ukrainian people will be raped by UE as we have been. You want freedom ? Stay away from USA and EU. We just want to loot your country.
It's not a question of n a zi or jew here, it's a question of NWO imperialism.

You're such a gullible fucking moron. How hard did you dig into those reports of fake snipers, exactly? What would be the point of setting up a false flag operation for SOMETHING THAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING? "URHH DUURRRHH let's make sure a few more people get shot among the dozens that already have been, that will totally make it seem like the ukrainian government is willing to kill it's own people! Because that is just SO HARD to believe otherwise!". Olga Bogomolets was the supposed source of the so-called rumour, known coloquially as the "White Angel" for her medical attention to wounded protestors and policemen alike. Here is her website. There are interviews elsewhere. There is a video of her denoucing government violence against protesters.
http://bogomolets.com/en/
Do you honestly think this person would still be pro-Maidan if what she allegedly said was true? Why isn't she repudiating the new government and calling tem western backed fascist puppets? GEE I WONDER. Go back to Infowars you braindead zombie.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:20:22 pm
I do not say that Ukrainian gvt did. I said that some Nato special forces did. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziOXObUIE4k

Since 9/11, I know they have no limits. And I won't trust their propaganda any more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 08, 2014, 09:21:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:20:22 pm
Since 9/11, I know they have no limits.
Oh no you didn't... why open pandora's box?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:22:35 pm
Why ? Because that's the same guys. And they are not my friends. I hate that fucking shadow government, and I hate all their wars.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 09:23:43 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:20:22 pm
I do not say that Ukrainian gvt did. I said that some Nato special forces did. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziOXObUIE4k

Since 9/11, I know they have no limits.

Whelp 9/11 conspiracy theorist, I thought all you morons had been laughed into oblivion after endless destruction of your "arguements", but since you apparently believe that there's no point in arguing with you. You are a literal black hole of negative intelligence.
And yes, I know what you said, and I just told you it was retarded, giving you reasons why, but I realize it's like throwing meringues against a wall. Completely pointless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on March 08, 2014, 09:25:16 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 07, 2014, 05:42:42 pm
Crimea was long planned by Russians, and have nothing to do with Maidan.

They just waited for Ukraine to be weak.

I'm of the opinion that this situation will just be drawn out and tensions held because a country can't become a member of NATO as long as it has an ongoing territorial dispute.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:26:34 pm
I don't know where you are from, but out of America we don't eat such shit. Propaganda is good for retarded americans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:27:07 pm
Quote from: SixThumbs on March 08, 2014, 09:25:16 pm
I'm of the opinion that this situation will just be drawn out and tensions held because a country can't become a member of NATO as long as it has an ongoing territorial dispute.

You mean..like Turkey in Cypria ?  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 08, 2014, 09:28:53 pm
Ой, то не вечер, то не вечер,
Мне малым-мало спалось,
Мне малым-мало спалось,
Ох, да во сне привиделось...

Мне во сне привиделось,
Будто конь мой вороной
Разыгрался, расплясался,
Разрезвился подо мной.

Налетели ветры злые
Со восточной стороны.
Ой, да сорвали чёрну шапку
С моей буйной головы.

А есаул догадлив был —
Он сумел сон мой разгадать.
"Ох, пропадёт, — он говорил,
Твоя буйна голова."

Ой, то не вечер, то не вечер,
Мне малым-мало спалось,
Мне малым-мало спалось,
Ох, да во сне привиделось...

Ох, да во сне привиделось...
Ох, да во сне привиделось...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dezilagel on March 08, 2014, 09:52:13 pm
Wow Tovi, you for real?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:59:52 pm
Not really, I took the red pill  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 08, 2014, 10:01:18 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 09:12:44 pm
Slightly less fascist, but yes, that's when it started gaining more hold as a popular philosophy among the elites, notably the military.

 :lol:

Well technically, you are right. Those people are elite because they are in power. But being elite also means they should be virtuous, and they are not.

In Russia and other post-soviet republics smart, honest and people of integrity were (and still are) victims of criminal groups. There are few russian documentaries which explain what happened when USSR fell apart.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 08, 2014, 10:16:10 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:14:58 pm
Western Ukrainians have been enslavered by Poles for centuries and you want to obey to Brussel and his NAFTA shit now? Slave a day, slave always ?

Actually Kievan Rus was enslaved firstly by Mongolians, then Lithuania got this area and Poland just inherited it when The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth was created.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 08, 2014, 10:17:11 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 08, 2014, 10:01:18 pm
:lol:

Well technically, you are right. Those people are elite because they are in power. But being elite also means they should be virtuous, and they are not.

In Russia and other post-soviet republics smart, honest and people of integrity were (and still are) victims of criminal groups. There are few russian documentaries which explain what happened when USSR fell apart.

"Elite" as a social class merely means that first thing. There is absolutely no moral judgement either way when you say someone is part of the "elite" of a country. Merely that they have a lot of power, whether that is money, education, instutional, etc. And I'm quite aware of the oligarchic system of post-soviet Russia. It is one of the reasons I classify them as "fascist".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 10:20:33 pm
Be patient, Troïka is coming.
What was the job of the Ukrainian 1st minister before ?  8-)
He's the US candidate : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1bi2ch_ukraine-la-manipulation-americaine-audio-victoria-nuland-geoffrey-r-pyatt-ambassadeur-us-en-ukraine_news
This is not a revolution, it's a coup.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 08, 2014, 11:30:55 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 09:14:58 pm
So, Russia would annex the half of your country that WANT to be annexed.
Western Ukrainians have been enslavered by Poles for centuries and you want to obey to Brussel and his NAFTA shit now? Slave a day, slave always ?
 EU is just a province created by US. And now the US empire want to place his Nato troops at the Russia's gate. What will be the next step ?

Obviously some ukrainian do not want to be westerners, so let them go.

It's not true, it's a cliché that's used by Russians to justify their actions. Randomised social research (taken the medium rounded value using a lot of them during 2013-2014). Would not mind to join Russia:
(click to show/hide)

Why on earth letting those "some Ukrainians" make their cities Russian? What do you suggest for those who don't want that? If people want to live in the other country - they move there. We're not living in middle ages.

Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 10:20:33 pm
Be patient, Troïka is coming.
What was the job of the Ukrainian 1st minister before ?  8-)
He's the US candidate : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1bi2ch_ukraine-la-manipulation-americaine-audio-victoria-nuland-geoffrey-r-pyatt-ambassadeur-us-en-ukraine_news
This is not a revolution, it's a coup.

What do you mean revolution? Are you any competent? I'm tired to repeat it over and over again: Parliament is all the same. The only difference is that Ukraine has no President, Parliament is exactly the same as it was with Yanukovich. US diplomats discussing Ukrainian politics with those who they want to see and those who they don't want to see in Government: what's wrong with it? I can give you millions of exactly same links from the Russian side.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bob_Ross on March 09, 2014, 12:31:48 am
Quote from: Falka on March 08, 2014, 10:16:10 pm
Actually Kievan Rus was enslaved firstly by Mongolians, then Lithuania got this area and Poland just inherited it when The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth was created.

And Ruthenia enjoyed relative religious tolerance within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It was in fact the Russians who implemented a harsh policy of Russification in Ukraine in the 19th century, mainly because they feared the influence of the numerous Polish nobility living in modern-day Ukraine and Belarus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 09, 2014, 02:24:21 am
The greatest conspiracy is that Tovi is in fact Truman and has been living as the star of a TV show since he was born.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 03:11:09 am
In the wiki for Russia it says that they have free healthcare since '96 but that care has declined since the collapse of the USSR.  What's the healthcare like in the Ukraine? Just curious because if the wiki page is at all accurate that means Russia provides free healthcare for all of its citizens whereas Ukraine doesn't?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 09, 2014, 04:29:05 am
Quote from: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 03:11:09 am
In the wiki for Russia it says that they have free healthcare since '96 but that care has declined since the collapse of the USSR.  What's the healthcare like in the Ukraine? Just curious because if the wiki page is at all accurate that means Russia provides free healthcare for all of its citizens whereas Ukraine doesn't?  Thanks.

hot damn what a deal breaker, better hand over the whole country now, that free health care really threw a wrench in our plans, how can the west compete with russian free health care!

U.S should just cede into canada too, cuz healthcare
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 05:21:16 am
huh? I was only wondering because there are Ukrainians in this thread who could comment on their healthcare...I don't know what you're going on about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 09, 2014, 08:18:11 am
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 09, 2014, 04:29:05 am
hot damn what a deal breaker, better hand over the whole country now, that free health care really threw a wrench in our plans, how can the west compete with russian free health care!

U.S should just cede into canada too, cuz healthcare
You got it all wrong! Our healthcare is one of the main reasons why Ukraine still resists annexation   :lol:
Free doesn't mean good.

Outdated,but still nice example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000
79   Ukraine
130   Russia
131    Honduras   
132    Burkina Faso

Life expectancy(I hope you know where Ukraine is :) ):
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Awea on March 09, 2014, 08:52:55 am
Quote from: Segd on March 09, 2014, 08:18:11 am
You got it all wrong! Our healthcare is one of the main reasons why Ukraine still resists annexation   :lol:
Free doesn't mean good.

Outdated,but still nice example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000
79   Ukraine
130   Russia
131    Honduras   
132    Burkina Faso

Life expectancy(I hope you know where Ukraine is :) ):
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<3 MORE FLOWERS !!! :)
Les français donnez de l'amour svp, ils en ont besoins...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 09, 2014, 08:53:38 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 08, 2014, 09:00:27 pm
(click to show/hide)

In pawn shop, i think, Ukraine need MORE gold  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Awea on March 09, 2014, 08:57:06 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 09, 2014, 08:53:38 am
In pawn shop, i think, Ukraine need MORE gold  :P

GO sell useless tanks to France... :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 09, 2014, 09:14:36 am
You could go to Krauss-Maffay and get some of those juicy Leopard 2 tanks...

...was quite the scandal in Germany when it came out that they sell those through dark channels basically in every part of the world.
And probably the best heavy tank that money can buy. We Germans know how to build tanks. :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 09, 2014, 10:00:54 am
Quote from: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 03:11:09 am
In the wiki for Russia it says that they have free healthcare since '96 but that care has declined since the collapse of the USSR.  What's the healthcare like in the Ukraine? Just curious because if the wiki page is at all accurate that means Russia provides free healthcare for all of its citizens whereas Ukraine doesn't?  Thanks.

In Ukraine we have free healthcare as well... Well, it is declared to be free, but in fact it is not. For operations you always have to pay bribes, they are not really free, medicines are not free at all and quality of this "free" healthcare is poor. However from my friends in Russia I know that it is even worse there.
I prefer private hospitals here - it is not much more expensive, sometimes not more expensive at all, but service is much better and risks are less.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 09, 2014, 10:01:47 am
Quote from: Segd on March 09, 2014, 08:18:11 am
(click to show/hide)

Quote
Life expectancy at birth (years), UN World Population Prospects 2010
                                      Overall Male Female
130     Russian Federation    67.68    61.56    74.03
131     Ukraine                    67.54    61.78    73.54


Ridiculous numbers, in most countries difference between male and female life expectancy amounts to just few points. Looks like vodka isn't as healthy as I thought :P

Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2014, 09:14:36 am
We Germans know how to build tanks. :?

When I was a kid I loved your tanks, especially Panzerkampfwagen IV since F2 version (with long canon) :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 09, 2014, 10:42:31 am
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2014, 09:14:36 am
You could go to Krauss-Maffay and get some of those juicy Leopard 2 tanks...

...was quite the scandal in Germany when it came out that they sell those through dark channels basically in every part of the world.
And probably the best heavy tank that money can buy. We Germans know how to build tanks. :?

Do you? Sure German tanks have reputation for battle prowess, but I reckon they are second rate for the same reasons as always: not enough of them and noone can figure out how to fix them :D

Tank SPAM is more important: as long as your guns can do SOME damage to your enemies superior tanks, all you need to do is produce enough tanks for small enough cost that it doesnt matter if you need to go 5 vs 1 gank to win: make your tank 1/6th as expensive and your winning the war. Source: WW2


This was not serious BTW, also: Tanks will not win or lose a conventional war these days, only total war or land control is deserts: tanks rely on bridges and flat ground too much for their effective deployment in urban and jungle enviroments, the quality and effectiveness of personal anti armor weapons is so great in this day and age that trying to combat a well trained army with armor in either Urban, jungle or mountain terain is just gonna get your tanks popped.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 09, 2014, 10:48:40 am
Quote from: Falka on March 09, 2014, 10:01:47 am
Ridiculous numbers, in most countries difference between male and female life expectancy amounts to just few points. Looks like vodka isn't as healthy as I thought :P
Life in Russia would be even shorter without our precious Vodka! Best medicine available! It keeps my motor running, tovarish!  8-)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 09, 2014, 10:59:02 am
High potato alcohol base level only thing keeping most of RUS from becoming frozen wasteland. Currently LOOKS like frozen wasteland, but at least drunk ppl not frozen solid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 11:11:50 am
I`m laughing my ass with the retards, like Oberyn for example, who are on a fanatical crusade again the "fascist" Russia  :lol:


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But seriously Oberyn, you need to learn when to SHUT THE FUCK, everytime you post something, you give a new meaning to the word STUPIDITY.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 11:14:51 am
OOOOOOOOOOHOHOKHRHHHOO  IM OBERYN IM A RETARD AND I CALL THE RUSSIANS FASCISTS OOOOOOHOHOHOOHOH



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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 09, 2014, 11:25:14 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 11:11:50 am
I`m laughing my ass with the retards, like Oberyn for example, who are on a fanatical crusade again the "fascist" Russia  :lol:

Panos, I don't get this retarded picture. How is Ukraine related to that? You can say whatever you want: USA is bad, Russia is good, so why don't Russian troops go to fucking USA instead?

What Russians did is very wrong. People of Crimea will get it very soon. Even if Ukraine won't use forces to save Crimea (which is doubtful): Crimea will be completely isolated. They use electricity, water and gas coming from other parts of Ukraine. And you can't simply build it during one week - it's months of work. And what if there will be a war? They will lose their jobs: tourism which is the main money factor in Crimea is already killed for this season.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 09, 2014, 11:59:29 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 09, 2014, 11:25:14 am
Even if Ukraine won't use forces to save Crimea (which is doubtful): Crimea will be completely isolated. They use electricity, water and gas coming from other parts of Ukraine. And you can't simply build it during one week - it's months of work. And what if there will be a war? They will lose their jobs: tourism which is the main money factor in Crimea is already killed for this season.
  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 12:03:45 pm
Idiots like Panos have absolutely nothing but false equivalencies to cover up the fact that they just love some good old fascist dick in their mouths. It's ok Panos, you don't understand what fascism means and you're emotional like a little pigtailed schoolgirl, it's not your fault. I call Russia fascist based on it's political organization since the end of the Soviet Union and it's geopolitical goals. "Fascist" doesn't just mean "evil booboo people I don't like", which is what ignorant morons like you use it as.
During and pre-WW2, and even during the Cold War the case could be made that the allies were colonialist, imperialist warmongers. Or that it's true even today, if you have the historical awareness of a newt. Do you know what they weren't? Fascists. They're not the same thing. But useful idiots like you were there to make the case that "Really, are they worse than democracies? Democracies use military force and war for their goals. That totally makes them the exact same thing."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 09, 2014, 12:05:24 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 09, 2014, 11:59:29 am
  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ivani4 is so competent in Ukraine that even Google Translate refused to translate his bullshit so he posted 3 smileys instead.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 09, 2014, 12:09:22 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 12:03:45 pm
Idiots like Panos have absolutely nothing but false equivalencies to cover up the fact that they just love some good old fascist dick in their mouths. It's ok Panos, you don't understand what fascism means and you're emotional like a little pigtailed schoolgirl, it's not your fault. I call Russia fascist based on it's political organization since the end of the Soviet Union and it's geopolitical goals. "Fascist" doesn't just mean "evil booboo people I don't like", which is what ignorant morons like you use it as.
During and pre-WW2, and even during the Cold War the case could be made that the allies were colonialist, imperialist warmongers. Or that it's true even today, if you have the historical awareness of a newt. Do you know what they weren't? Fascists. They're not the same thing. But useful idiots like you were there to make the case that "Really, are they worse than democracies? Democracies use military force and war for their goals. That totally makes them the exact same thing."

Oberyn, you're too educated for this thread. Occasionally I find it completely retarded to argue in such topics, like it's stupid to argue with someone who says that 2+2 is not 4. Though being a part of this topic - I at least have to type something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 09, 2014, 12:20:11 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2014, 09:14:36 am
You could go to Krauss-Maffay and get some of those juicy Leopard 2 tanks...

...was quite the scandal in Germany when it came out that they sell those through dark channels basically in every part of the world.
And probably the best heavy tank that money can buy. We Germans know how to build tanks. :?
And where that arsenal of former  DDR disappear?
I bet that most of Aks and t72 used in local conflict in Africa were not of Russian origin :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 09, 2014, 12:27:32 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 11:14:51 am
OOOOOOOOOOHOHOKHRHHHOO  IM OBERYN IM A RETARD AND I CALL THE RUSSIANS FASCISTS OOOOOOHOHOHOOHOH

Well the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq was just as stupid as the invasion of Crimea (if not more stupid). But that doesn't mean that everyone should start accepting the invasion of Crimea just because the US invaded other countries.

And if I was to be occupied by a foreign military superpower and had to pick one, I would hope and pray it's the bloody Americans instead of the Russians. Read about Russian warcrimes in Afghanistan and Chechnya and compare it to America's warcrimes. I have yet to see something good come out from post-USSR Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 09, 2014, 12:29:37 pm
There has been a hilarious incident some time back:

A German news site posted a picture beside an article and the caption to it was "African kid soldier holding an AK47" when the picture actually showed an African kid soldier holding a German G3!
That article including the picture went online only 1 day after a press conference at H&K them swearing that they didn't sell any G3 into Africa :D

And the journalist who wrote the caption was mocked too but that was just a side effect :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 09, 2014, 01:05:46 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 11:14:51 am
(click to show/hide)
Someone should just come and peacefully occupy a piece of Greece, since you seem to be cool with it, if they do it peacefully. We should have already interfered back when Russia invaded Georgia. But EU pussied out, said its not their problem and see what happened now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 09, 2014, 01:07:33 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 11:11:50 am
I`m laughing my ass with the retards, like Oberyn for example, who are on a fanatical crusade again the "fascist" Russia  :lol:


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But seriously Oberyn, you need to learn when to SHUT THE FUCK, everytime you post something, you give a new meaning to the word STUPIDITY.

Technically part of this poster is wrong, America never went into Syria, they were blocked by Russia from doing so, plus you could flip it the other way round.

USSR in Afganistan
Russia in Georgia
etc..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 01:13:32 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 12:03:45 pm
Idiots like Panos have absolutely nothing but false equivalencies to cover up the fact that they just love some good old fascist dick in their mouths. It's ok Panos, you don't understand what fascism means and you're emotional like a little pigtailed schoolgirl, it's not your fault. I call Russia fascist based on it's political organization since the end of the Soviet Union and it's geopolitical goals. "Fascist" doesn't just mean "evil booboo people I don't like", which is what ignorant morons like you use it as.
During and pre-WW2, and even during the Cold War the case could be made that the allies were colonialist, imperialist warmongers. Or that it's true even today, if you have the historical awareness of a newt. Do you know what they weren't? Fascists. They're not the same thing. But useful idiots like you were there to make the case that "Really, are they worse than democracies? Democracies use military force and war for their goals. That totally makes them the exact same thing."

You dumb fuck, communist Russia was 1000 times worse than Russia today, thats why I`m calling you and the others who think the same as you retards.

Also, I`m laughing my ass with Dave calling you educated just because the only thing you do is bashing Russia.

Sure, you can keep on mumbling that the Russians are the true Fascists, but in my eyes the only ones who speak the truth are the Crimean people, and guess what you dumb frog, Crimean people LOVE RUSSIANS, they feel they`re their saviours, thats why they welcomed them.

Now, go and digest all the crap the EU and the NATO are feeding you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 01:14:35 pm
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Look how happy they are! Old women and little children smiling, it just warms the cockles of my heart.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 01:22:16 pm
So what?

At that time, Nazees were the only solution the German though they had, and guess what you inbred cocksucker, THEY WERE CHEERING FOR IT!


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 09, 2014, 01:23:25 pm
Quote
Crimean people LOVE RUSSIANS

The problem is that not all, around half of them. Probably slightly more or slightly less. But yes, who cares about other half when there are so polite self-defense forces around.

The only exception is Sevastopol, there indeed overwhelming majority wants to be in Russia, but that's not the whole Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 09, 2014, 01:25:47 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:22:16 pm
So what?

At that time, Nazees were the only solution the German though they had, and guess what you inbred cocksucker, THEY WERE CHEERING FOR IT!

Part of them. This part which wasn't hold in concentration camps...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 01:26:06 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:22:16 pm
So what?

At that time, Nazees were the only solution the German though they had, and guess what you inbred cocksucker, THEY WERE CHEERING FOR IT!


Yes, thanks for proving my point. The "solution" to what, exactly? The opression and ethnic cleansing against them that existed only in propaganda spewed by the fascist german regime, that they deliberately made up so they could annex the territory of a sovereign nation under the guise of "protecting" their "race"? Wow, so totally different to this situation!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 01:30:16 pm
Quote from: serr on March 09, 2014, 01:23:25 pm
The problem is that not all, around half of them. Probably slightly more or slightly less. But yes, who cares about other half when there are so polite self-defense forces around.

The only exception is Sevastopol, there indeed overwhelming majority wants to be in Russia, but that's not the whole Crimea.

The poll at the end of the month will show.


Quote from: Falka on March 09, 2014, 01:25:47 pm
Part of them. This part which wasn't hold in concentration camps...

Good of the Majority > Rights of the minority



Quote from: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 01:26:06 pm
Yes, thanks for proving my point. The "solution" to what, exactly? The opression and ethnic cleansing against them that existed only in propaganda spewed by the fascist german regime, that they deliberately made up so they could annex the territory of a sovereign nation under the guise of "protecting" their "race"? Wow, so totally different to this situation!

The solution to a poor after war Germany, almost destroyed with 30% unemployment rates, sure, einstein was a butcher, but that doesnt mean that he didnt even do anything good for Germany, I`m pretty sure that if Nazees had won the war, einstein would be a hero today
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 09, 2014, 01:31:40 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:30:16 pm
Good of the Majority > Rights of the minority

Ye, let's kill all jews in our country for the greater good! you're funny Panos.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 01:35:19 pm
I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. First you say people calling Russia fascist are complete retards, then you spin 180° and say "well maybe fascism isn't so bad after all, look what it did for Germany". So which is it. You're even more of a confused dumb fucker than I thought.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 01:36:16 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 09, 2014, 01:31:40 pm
Ye, let's kill all jews in our country for the greater good! you're funny Panos.

thats your saying, not mine.


Quote from: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 01:35:19 pm
I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. First you say people calling Russia fascist are complete retards, then you spin 180° and say "well maybe fascism isn't so bad after all, look what it did for Germany". So which is it. You're even more of a confused dumb fucker than I thought.


I never said that fascism is good. you`re putting words in my mouth now.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 09, 2014, 01:38:54 pm
Some great reinforcements on Crimea:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)


Those 7 chetniks will surely make a difference.  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 09, 2014, 01:39:49 pm
Here's the plan:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 09, 2014, 01:40:24 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:13:32 pm
You dumb fuck, communist Russia was 1000 times worse than Russia today, thats why I`m calling you and the others who think the same as you retards.

Also, I`m laughing my ass with Dave calling you educated just because the only thing you do is bashing Russia.

Sure, you can keep on mumbling that the Russians are the true Fascists, but in my eyes the only ones who speak the truth are the Crimean people, and guess what you dumb frog, Crimean people LOVE RUSSIANS, they feel they`re their saviours, thats why they welcomed them.

Now, go and digest all the crap the EU and the NATO are feeding you.

No, I call him educated because his speech tells that he's educated  :rolleyes: And unlike you he doesn't speak for a lot of people about whom you have no idea. Just for the info, Crimean people =/= Russians. Native Crimean tatars got deported from their native land by communists, they came back when the USSR got dissolved. Now they're something like 1/3 of Crimea's population and I didn't see a single one of them having a desire to become a part of Russia. It's somewhat a half of population who wants that and it's not a reason to fuck over the 2nd half.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grumbs on March 09, 2014, 01:40:31 pm
I think theres a bit of an overreaction going on with the whole mess. If say Canada was overrun by rebels who demanded a new government, would America stand back and watch as their neighbor becomes destabilized, especially if they had a state that used to belong to them inside Canada that had 60% Americans living there? I think the angry mob would not have even got so bad, America would have supported Canada and suppressed the rebels sooner

I think people are at least not giving Russia a bit of understanding and assume the worst. In any case its not worth destabilising russian/west diplomatic relations over

This is kinda Devil's Advocate but I don't have much opinion either way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2014, 01:40:46 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 11:11:50 am
I`m laughing my ass with the retards, like Oberyn for example, who are on a fanatical crusade again the "fascist" Russia  :lol:


visitors can't see pics , please register or login

That's one of the most retarded pictures I've ever seen, on so many different levels.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 09, 2014, 01:41:44 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:36:16 pm
I never said that fascism is good. you`re putting words in my mouth now.

You should be thankful to Oberyn for that, as you have trouble putting words in your mouth yourself
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 01:42:19 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 09, 2014, 01:39:49 pm
Here's the plan:

(click to show/hide)

Thats funny, because Golden Dawn is the only political party that has an actual viable solution for the crisis.


Quote from: Kafein on March 09, 2014, 01:41:44 pm
You should be thankful to Oberyn for that, as you have trouble putting words in your mouth yourself

Yeah yeah, I get it , all nationalists are dumb inbred retards, and people like you and Oberyn, are living prodigies  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 09, 2014, 01:43:11 pm
jeez in the time i was typing this, there were 10 new posts...

Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:30:16 pm
The poll at the end of the month will show.
Not really. With these self-defence local forces, don't you think people who are voting against it may be scared of voting? Or pressured out of voting? Or even that the vote count will be correct?
There is no such thing as fair elections/vote/referendum with a foreign army and paramilitary groups (the so called self defence local forces) hanging around.
(click to show/hide)
There is a distance which this one, in that not only you have these "self defence local forces", but also a foreign army, which will pressure for the "right" result (the one that they want).

Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:42:19 pm
Thats funny, because Golden Dawn is the only political party that has an actual viable solution for the crisis.
Please elaborate more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 09, 2014, 01:43:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 09, 2014, 01:40:46 pm
That's one of the most retarded pictures I've ever seen, on so many different levels.
9GAG
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 09, 2014, 01:43:26 pm
Drilling for oil?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 09, 2014, 01:48:22 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:42:19 pm
Yeah yeah, I get it , all nationalists are dumb inbred retards, and people like you and Oberyn, are living prodigies  :lol:

You know very well I'm a nationalist. That doesn't mean I would support making up bullshit propaganda about poor francophone minorities in Belgium and Switzerland and Canada being opressed and occupying the territory to annex them to the Greater Reich, I mean noble french Republic. It's possible to be nationalist and further left on the political spectrum than fascist neo-chocolate chip cookies, but that is something you don't seem to understand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 01:52:28 pm
Quote from: Moncho on March 09, 2014, 01:43:11 pm
Please elaborate more.


Quote from: Paul on March 09, 2014, 01:43:26 pm
Drilling for oil?


Motivate people again to produce stuff from the land, oil and natural gas in Aegean sea, better promotion of the Greek islands to attract even more tourists, retaking back public companies that were sold to private investors for little to no money


I`m gonna give you a quote from their site


 
Quote
ΦΥΣΙΚΟ ΑΕΡΙΟ- ΠΕΤΡΕΛΑΙΟ: Σύμφωνα με την Deutsche Bank θεωρείται βέβαιη η ύπαρξη πλούσιων κοιτασμάτων φυσικού αερίου νοτίως της Κρήτης, αξίας 427 δισ. ευρώ και όσον αφορά τα χρονοδιαγράμματα τα έσοδα αυτά θα έρθουν μέσα σε 8 έτη.

Deutsche Bank estimates that South of Crete there is natural gas, worthy of 427 Bil Euros.


Their solutiong are way too many for me to write them all here.

http://www.xryshaygh.com/index.php/kinima/thesis

If you have the time, try reading them with a translator.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 09, 2014, 01:56:53 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:42:19 pm
Yeah yeah, I get it , all nationalists are dumb inbred retards, and people like you and Oberyn, are living prodigies  :lol:

Stop jumping to conclusions. You started with the incoherent speech, not me.

By the way, I am a living prodigy, but that doesn't mean all nationalists are retards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Perverz on March 09, 2014, 01:58:53 pm
Quote from: Gnjus on March 09, 2014, 01:38:54 pm
Some great reinforcements on Crimea:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)


Those 7 chetniks will surely make a difference.  :twisted:

7 apes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 09, 2014, 02:05:38 pm
Quote from: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 03:11:09 am
In the wiki for Russia it says that they have free healthcare since '96 but that care has declined since the collapse of the USSR.  What's the healthcare like in the Ukraine? Just curious because if the wiki page is at all accurate that means Russia provides free healthcare for all of its citizens whereas Ukraine doesn't?  Thanks.

Free healthcare in countries of former soviet-block is :lol:

If you happen to get even a remotely serious disease and don't have money to bribe doctors to actually perform surgery (like those they did in USA in the 50s) or to get treatment in another country, you'll be dead in few years time.

Russia does, however, have great doctors. But those aren't free...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 09, 2014, 02:18:52 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 09, 2014, 02:05:38 pm
Free healthcare in countries of former soviet-block is :lol:

If you happen to get even a remotely serious disease and don't have money to bribe doctors to actually perform surgery (like those they did in USA in the 50s) or to get treatment in another country, you'll be dead in few years time.

Russia does, however, have great doctors. But those aren't free...
Yep.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 09, 2014, 02:42:11 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:52:28 pm


 
Deutsche Bank estimates that South of Crete there is natural gas, worthy of 427 Bil Euros.






HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

First of all you need money to begin drilling

Second of all, if you think there is that much Gas under Crete, you are even more deluded than i thought

Third of all, natural gas won't save your economy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 02:43:34 pm
Quote from: Strudog on March 09, 2014, 02:42:11 pm

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

First of all you need money to begin drilling

Second of all, if you think there is that much Gas under Crete, you are even more deluded than i thought


thats not my saying you stupid cunt, Deutche Bank estimated that.

God, you`re more stupid than you look, learn to read.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 09, 2014, 02:50:08 pm
have you actually read the full report? the only reason they say that there is that much gas there is because of drilling activities by BP and shell in the Nile delta where they found a lot of gas, considering they share the same basin called Herodotus, they have presumed that there will be that much gas on their half of the basin, no drilling or surreys or anything has occurred on the Greek side, so how on earth can they estimate $427 billion worth of gas?

Not only do they believe what was mentioned above, but also that they will become the main supplier of Gas to Europe, if there is that much Gas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 02:53:44 pm
Quote from: Strudog on March 09, 2014, 02:50:08 pm
have you actually read the full report? the only reason they say that there is that much gas there is because of drilling activities by BP and shell in the Nile delta where they found a lot of gas, considering they share the same basin called Herodotus, they have presumed that there will be that much gas on their half of the basin, no drilling or anything has occurred on the Greek side, so how on earth can they estimate $427 billion worth of gas?

presumed?

The gas exists, they just don`t know the exact amount, some say 200bil euros, while others say 427bil euros.


http://english.capital.gr/News.asp?id=1681067

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/12/04/deutsche-bank-greece-to-earn-e214-billion-from-natural-gas-by-2020/

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_05/12/2012_473090

http://www.euromoney.com/Article/3124174/Greeces-600bn-gas-reserves-to-fuel-recovery.html


Anyway, this thread is about Ukraine, not Greece.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 09, 2014, 03:00:09 pm
All those articles just state, we think there is, nothing has been proven.

And i very much doubt the Greek people will see much of that money, it will all b shipped off to Germany before you know it.

the only money the Greeks will make out of this will be through Tax and people gaining jobs.

Im done with this argument back to Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 09, 2014, 03:35:49 pm
Can we go back to insulting each others fascist please?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 09, 2014, 04:16:04 pm

Serb volunteer guys with a "past" in Crimea
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 09, 2014, 04:30:06 pm
Quote from: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 05:21:16 am
huh? I was only wondering because there are Ukrainians in this thread who could comment on their healthcare...I don't know what you're going on about.

im going on about why the hell you would wanna care what kind of health care they have when the thread has no relations as to anything health care related.  Who gives a fuck about what health care they have when Russia is breathing all over the country from the seats of tanks, thats what im going on about.......Crimea is being take over by russians and now they move to grab more of Ukraine, "hey what kind of health care you Ukrainians have?"

free health care is a shame anyways, its never free, the time it takes you to actually get something done because it was free and you had to wait in some bullshit time cost you either your life or an astronomical amount of time.

Hard to comment on 5 page old posts but really, overnight this discussion moves so quick.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grumbs on March 09, 2014, 04:49:22 pm
Offtopic healthcare stuff:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 09, 2014, 05:05:01 pm
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Quote from: DaveUKR on March 09, 2014, 11:25:14 am
Panos, I don't get this retarded picture.

Quote from: Strudog on March 09, 2014, 01:07:33 pm
Technically part of this poster is wrong, America never went into Syria, they were blocked by Russia from doing so, plus you could flip it the other way round.

Quote from: Xant on March 09, 2014, 01:40:46 pm
That's one of the most retarded pictures I've ever seen, on so many different levels.


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/remove blinker


An educated guess would have shown that the joke here is about the "population approval/disapproval" of such and such military actions, not that USA actually directly invaded Syria/Lybia or that what Russia is doing is good.

The good thing about this joke is that, like Strudog pointed out, it can be flipped the other way around, which is the point of around 90% of the non pro-EU posts in this thread.


/put blinker back


You fascist pigs!


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 09, 2014, 05:39:54 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 09, 2014, 04:16:04 pm

Serb volunteer guys with a "past" in Crimea
Serbs support separatism? Where all this "Kosovo je Srbija" gone?

But they look like true modern Russian cossacks though, like military rednek pokemons:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 09, 2014, 06:12:13 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on March 09, 2014, 01:30:16 pm
The solution to a poor after war Germany, almost destroyed with 30% unemployment rates, sure, einstein was a butcher, but that doesnt mean that he didnt even do anything good for Germany, I`m pretty sure that if Nazees had won the war, einstein would be a hero today
That isn't even historical accurate when you just leave out the important bits  :|
This part alone is dripping with Neo-Nazi propaganda bullshit, it isn't even funny... oh wait, actually it is funny :lol:

Keep it coming :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 09, 2014, 06:13:25 pm
na,  not funny. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2014, 06:19:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 09, 2014, 05:05:01 pm
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/remove blinker


An educated guess would have shown that the joke here is about the "population approval/disapproval" of such and such military actions, not that USA actually directly invaded Syria/Lybia or that what Russia is doing is good.
The irony is fucking glorious when you post that picture when it's perfect to describe your post, except this isn't a joke, you're retarded. Everyone gets what the juvenile joke there is - a good rule of thumb for you would be this: if you get it, everyone else got it ages ago - the point is that it's fucking silly on so many different levels, from misleading images to wrong facts to assuming that just because Putin says it's for the people it is, etc, etc... the joke doesn't work when it's built on so many false premises. It's the equivalent of laughing at "all cows are jews, therefor einstein made good cow-steaks LOL." Retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on March 09, 2014, 06:26:43 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2014, 06:12:13 pm
That isn't even historical accurate when you just leave out the important bits  :|
This part alone is dripping with Neo-Nazi propaganda bullshit, it isn't even funny... oh wait, actually it is funny :lol:

Keep it coming :D

What important bits ?

Even though it was for all the WRONG REASONS, einstein was a very good leader. He had an uncanny ability to unite the people in a way never before seen in the history of Germany. He managed to bring Germany out of depression and brought new technologies and military advancements to Germany's army.
einstein had studied ancient technologies and enlisted scientists to study and developed new technologies from these advancement. Many of military developments made by chocolate chip cookie Germany are still in use today as some of the most capable machines in history.

Also einstein was the first leader in europe who was giving money to women for every child they gave birth to.

To sum it up, he did what he THOUGHT was best for Germany. It was in his opinion to rid the country of most minority groups, or those who have different or objectable backgrounds and cultural differences. He did this because to him, it was the so called, "right" thing in his crazy, messed up mind.

You can`t deny the fact, that if einstein had died before starting WW2, he`d be one of the best German leaders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 09, 2014, 06:35:12 pm
You do know that he wasn't even voted into power regularly? He cheated and corrupted, you know? Just wondering... When he was uniting everyone, why would he? :rolleyes:

Well, if you say "rule by terror and fear" is "uniting the masses"... then yes, by all means he was uniting :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 09, 2014, 07:17:23 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 09, 2014, 04:16:04 pm
Serb volunteer guys with a "past" in Crimea

The serb guy was very nice though
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 09, 2014, 07:22:11 pm
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434 (http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434)

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Quote from: Sarah Palin
Sarah Palin has offered unsolicited advice to US President Barack Obama on containing Russian aggression, saying “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke”.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 09, 2014, 07:24:48 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on March 09, 2014, 07:22:11 pm
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434 (http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434)

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Palin never ceases to amaze me
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 09, 2014, 07:28:37 pm
Dafuq is wrong with that woman?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 09, 2014, 07:31:51 pm
What the fuck, seriously?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 09, 2014, 07:54:30 pm
Palin is a lunatic. What else is new?

Meanwhile, I'm getting more and more worried about the professionalism of the people we get our news from. See here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/us-ukraine-crisis-plane-idUSBREA270MM20140308 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/us-ukraine-crisis-plane-idUSBREA270MM20140308)

Quote
A Ukrainian border patrol plane came under fire while flying at about 1,000 meters (3000 feet) near the administrative border with Russian-occupied Crimea on Saturday, the border guards said.

Sounds bad, right? Finnish news picked up on it, and later the video from the plane was released. The article describes it as showing "white flashes in the distance that according to Reuters look like gunfire." Now watch the video. Relevant part starts at 1:23.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/ukrainalaisen_valvontakoneen_tulituksesta_julkaistiin_videokuvaa/7127754 (http://yle.fi/uutiset/ukrainalaisen_valvontakoneen_tulituksesta_julkaistiin_videokuvaa/7127754)

Does that look like gunfire to you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 09, 2014, 08:04:30 pm
Quote from: okiN on March 09, 2014, 07:54:30 pm
What kind of mouth-breathing retard can't tell the difference between gunfire and a laser pointer?

One that wants to provoke a conflict, yeah?

It doesn't let me watch the video, but the picture it shows is it? Green laser thingy?

Who knows russia must've developed handheld laser weaponry
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2014, 08:06:59 pm
Quote from: okiN on March 09, 2014, 07:54:30 pm
Palin is a lunatic. What else is new?

Meanwhile, I'm getting more and more worried about the professionalism of the people we get our news from. See here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/us-ukraine-crisis-plane-idUSBREA270MM20140308 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/us-ukraine-crisis-plane-idUSBREA270MM20140308)

Sounds bad, right? Finnish news picked up on it, and later the video from the plane was released. The article describes it as showing "white flashes in the distance that according to Reuters look like gunfire." Now watch the video. Relevant part starts at 0:59.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/ukrainalaisen_valvontakoneen_tulituksesta_julkaistiin_videokuvaa/7127754 (http://yle.fi/uutiset/ukrainalaisen_valvontakoneen_tulituksesta_julkaistiin_videokuvaa/7127754)

(click to show/hide)
They can tell that green thing is a laser pointer, but they think the white flashes right at the end are "gunfire."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on March 09, 2014, 08:10:11 pm
Oh, so they meant THOSE. I didn't even notice them first time around.

Eh, that seems pretty far-fetched as well. A gun being fired doesn't look like that at all.

Still, it's encouraging to know they weren't talking about the laser.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 09, 2014, 08:39:15 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 09, 2014, 06:19:33 pm
Everyone gets what the juvenile joke there is - a good rule of thumb for you would be this: if you get it, everyone else got it ages ago - the point is that it's fucking silly on so many different levels.


Sorry, I though it was silly funny  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 09, 2014, 09:31:40 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 09, 2014, 05:05:01 pm
An educated guess would have shown that the joke here is about the "population approval/disapproval" of such and such military actions, not that USA actually directly invaded Syria/Lybia or that what Russia is doing is good.

The good thing about this joke is that, like Strudog pointed out, it can be flipped the other way around, which is the point of around 90% of the non pro-EU posts in this thread.

But, it's not even remotely CLOSE to the general Opinion over Syria, and somewhat close to Iraq. Only the Afghanistan picture was a gungho option. Iraq was a split(like 30/70 or so), while Syria was a 60/40.  But coming from EU, I can expect that stupid shit. Most of your countries have no where near the total pop US does(unless you count EU as a whole). 30% Approval is like the population of your damn country(France, right?)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 09, 2014, 09:40:45 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 09, 2014, 09:42:56 pm
http://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-ultra-nationalists-come-to-fight-in-ukraine/

(click to show/hide)

Fair choice
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 09, 2014, 10:43:04 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on March 09, 2014, 09:31:40 pm
But, it's not even remotely CLOSE to the general Opinion over Syria, and somewhat close to Iraq. Only the Afghanistan picture was a gungho option. Iraq was a split(like 30/70 or so), while Syria was a 60/40.  But coming from EU, I can expect that stupid shit. Most of your countries have no where near the total pop US does(unless you count EU as a whole). 30% Approval is like the population of your damn country(France, right?)

Thats a gross exageration like in some joke, I'm pretty certain like you that some countries on the american and european continent arent widely accepting those views. But I can tell you that in France, they all agree on saying Afghanistan/Iraq/Lybia/Syria government needed to be removed for security/moralistic/whatever reasons. Then on "how to" and "how bad" we wanted/want to remove them, well, history speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 09, 2014, 11:07:22 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 09, 2014, 07:24:48 pm
Palin never ceases to amaze me

Her approach is a bit more modern, 80s style. While Russians are trying to justify their actions explaining to the common folks (idiots) how this is a fight between eternal enemies, chocolate chip cookies and communists, Palin is exchanging those with terms more suited for an average American. Good guys vs bad guys. Like in movies with Arnie :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on March 09, 2014, 11:09:38 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on March 09, 2014, 07:22:11 pm
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434 (http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434)

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What a delirious bloodthirsty bitch! She seems to have inhaled too much of that renowned USA democracy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 11:15:12 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 09, 2014, 04:30:06 pm
im going on about why the hell you would wanna care what kind of health care they have when the thread has no relations as to anything health care related.  Who gives a fuck about what health care they have when Russia is breathing all over the country from the seats of tanks, thats what im going on about.......Crimea is being take over by russians and now they move to grab more of Ukraine, "hey what kind of health care you Ukrainians have?"
This thread has encompassed pretty much every historical or contextual aspect of the current Crimean crisis.  It's important to find every piece of the puzzle before you put the picture together.  Don't you want to know why these events happen? 

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 12:01:51 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 09, 2014, 11:07:22 pm
Her approach is a bit more modern, 80s style. While Russians are trying to justify their actions explaining to the common folks (idiots) how this is a fight between eternal enemies, chocolate chip cookies and communists, Palin is exchanging those with terms more suited for an average American. Good guys vs bad guys. Like in movies with Arnie :lol:

One century apart, one stuck in 1880 the other in 1980, yeah. From that perspective I guess Palin is not that bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 12:19:24 am
Palin said in 2008 that Russia would invade Ukraine if nothing was done about it invading Georgia. Diss all you want, she saw it all comin'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 10, 2014, 12:59:54 am
So you want nukes to fly?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 01:21:59 am
An impressive non sequitur. Neither Palin, nor I, have said that nukes should fly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 10, 2014, 01:59:53 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 09, 2014, 11:07:22 pm
Palin is exchanging those with terms more suited for an average American. Good guys vs bad guys. Like in movies with Arnie :lol:
Whom did you call bad!?
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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 10, 2014, 02:10:08 am
Quote from: Tagora on March 09, 2014, 11:15:12 pm
This thread has encompassed pretty much every historical or contextual aspect of the current Crimean crisis.  It's important to find every piece of the puzzle before you put the picture together.  Don't you want to know why these events happen? 

(click to show/hide)

right, talking about chocolate chip cookie's because fascism was used in propaganda, okay makes sense, russians living in Ukraine because of old soviet bloc, okay makes sense, bringing the topic of health care issues being a reason as to why russia invaded a country.....

news to me, wasnt aware the Crimean crisis involved healthcare, must be more Russian propaganda, but hey what do i know, im some dumb fuck who flips burgers lol, because that explains my education level.....this is why you're a dumb ignorant cunt in game and on the forums.  At no point was healthcare an issue, you merely made an objective question to put a reason on why there is a problem in Ukraine, of which healthcare was never the reason.  The thought of even putting the issue of healthcare on the table just further dilutes the thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on March 10, 2014, 02:28:34 am
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 10, 2014, 02:10:08 am
right, talking about chocolate chip cookie's because fascism was used in propaganda, okay makes sense, russians living in Ukraine because of old soviet bloc, okay makes sense, bringing the topic of health care issues being a reason as to why russia invaded a country.....

news to me, wasnt aware the Crimean crisis involved healthcare, must be more Russian propaganda, but hey what do i know, im some dumb fuck who flips burgers lol, because that explains my education level.....this is why you're a dumb ignorant cunt in game and on the forums.  At no point was healthcare an issue, you merely made an objective question to put a reason on why there is a problem in Ukraine, of which healthcare was never the reason.  The thought of even putting the issue of healthcare on the table just further dilutes the thread.
There wasn't anything in Russian propaganda (that I'm aware of) that compared their healthcare to Ukraine's.  It was a personal request I had for the Ukrainians (& Russians) in this thread because the wiki on the subject wasn't good.  I wanted to know what either side thought about it because things like this are important in judging the standard of living.  That's how you compare nations.  It was a small request that you have blown out of proportion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 10, 2014, 02:32:09 am
Sadly, Palin is absolutely right. Only countries that have nuclear weapons can stand up to another country with nuclear weapons. You know, MAD, the entire idea behind the entire Cold War. She never said to use them, but I understand why people are willing to misinterpret it in the most retarded manner, because frankly she is really retarded most of the time. Broken clock, twice a day, etc. If you shotgun enough bullshit in a wide spread you're bound to land some hits. You can bet your fucking ass Russia would never have done this shit if Ukraine still had nuclear weapons.
Anyways, the annexation will probably keep going apace, with western leaders congratulating themselves on avoiding escalation of the conflict by throwing Ukraine to the wolves and letting it get dismembered. I can't wait for the "Peace in our time" speech from Obama and the rest of the balless pushovers in the EU. Hopefully it'll be on April first just so people aren't sure if he's really fucking around or not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 02:41:51 am
Quote from: Oberyn on March 10, 2014, 02:32:09 am
Sadly, Palin is absolutely right. Only countries that have nuclear weapons can stand up to another country with nuclear weapons. You know, MAD, the entire idea behind the entire Cold War. She never said to use them
Indeed, and understanding this isn't too difficult when you can read. If, and only if, Russia had used nukes against Ukraine could her statement be understood as "we should nuke Russia." But since Russia has not used any nukes, obviously saying "to stand up against a bad guy (Russia) with nukes, you need a good guy (USA) with nukes" isn't meant as "let's nuke everything."

Of course, the referenced article (http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434) has an absolutely atrocious headline. Journalism at its worst. "Sarah Palin’s advice to Barack Obama: ‘Stop Putin with nukes’". That isn't what Palin said at all, and gives someone who just glances at the headline a completely different idea of what was said.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 10, 2014, 03:03:49 am
Quote from: Tagora on March 10, 2014, 02:28:34 am
There wasn't anything in Russian propaganda (that I'm aware of) that compared their healthcare to Ukraine's.  It was a personal request I had for the Ukrainians (& Russians) in this thread because the wiki on the subject wasn't good.  I wanted to know what either side thought about it because things like this are important in judging the standard of living.  That's how you compare nations.  It was a small request that you have blown out of proportion.

thats called sarcasm, as was the majority of my posts, even nearly the original one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rumblood on March 10, 2014, 04:09:05 am
Quote from: Xant on March 10, 2014, 12:19:24 am
Palin said in 2008 that Russia would invade Ukraine if nothing was done about it invading Georgia. Diss all you want, she saw it all comin'

Right, let's pretend that a woman who failed in her one bid in a national election, and quit her job in the middle of her term as Governor of a state with the population of the city of Fort Worth (Only the 5th largest city in Texas) because she couldn't stand the heat, is somehow at all relevant to this discussion.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 09:54:16 am
(click to show/hide)
Propaganda says :
Da good guys !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 10:30:51 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 09:54:16 am
(click to show/hide)
Propaganda says :
Da good guys !

google "Russian nаzis". You'll be quite surprised I guess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 10, 2014, 10:35:01 am
Quote from: Rumblood on March 10, 2014, 04:09:05 am
Right, let's pretend that a woman who failed in her one bid in a national election, and quit her job in the middle of her term as Governor of a state with the population of the city of Fort Worth (Only the 5th largest city in Texas) because she couldn't stand the heat, is somehow at all relevant to this discussion.  :rolleyes:

Well, truth to be told, you had the rest of the world worried at the time. The campaign was close, and if McCain was elected, only a heartbit of a 72 yearold would be standing between her and US nuclear arsenal. I don't know about you, but that fact worries me much more than Iran and North Korea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 10:57:00 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 10:30:51 am
google "Russian nаzis". You'll be quite surprised I guess.

But Russia is under control.

Meanwhile in Kiev : http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.575732
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 11:02:01 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 10:57:00 am
But Russia is under control.

Meanwhile in Kiev : http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.575732

I give up, seriously. In Ukraine we eat jews, we're all nаzi and we hate Russians. Enjoy party with your friends from a country which is not fascist at all and has no nаzis.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:04:15 am
You mean na-zis in the gouverment. Or militias in the streets. It's not exactly the same you know.

And I've never said all Ukrainians are na-zis.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 10, 2014, 11:07:40 am
Come on, just ignore Tovi, he is obviously trolling.
Or he is russian and tries to hide it :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:08:47 am
I'm french, and I just do not listen mainstream medias.

Do you remember when french president said to not go in Irak ? And what about american reaction ?
We know what they are doing all over the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 10, 2014, 11:10:39 am
That's exactly what I mean :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:13:17 am
Me too : still no mass destruction weapons nor AlQaida in Irak... and I still split on US empire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 11:17:54 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 10:57:00 am
But Russia is under control.

Meanwhile in Kiev : http://eajc.org/page32/news43672.html

Fixed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:26:39 am
Check your source : http://forward.com/articles/193964/the-new-head-of-the-euro-asian-jewish-congress-is/?p=1
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 11:29:16 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:26:39 am
Check your source : http://forward.com/articles/193964/the-new-head-of-the-euro-asian-jewish-congress-is/?p=1

That's absolutely right, none of them are jew :

Quote
Signed:

Josef Zisels Chairman of the Association of Jewish Communities and Organizations of Ukraine (VAAD) Ukraine, Executive Vice President of the Congress of National Communities of Ukraine

Alexander Suslensky D.Sc., Vice President of the Jewish Confederation of Ukraine, businessman

Andrei Adamovsky First Vice President of the Jewish Confederation of Ukraine, member of the “Hillel” Jewish Student organization Observation Council (citizen of Russia)

Rabbi Alex Dukhovny Head Rabbi of the Ukrainian Progressive Judaism communities

Rabbi Reuven Stamov Head Rabbi of the Ukrainian Traditional Judaism communities

Alexander Paskhaver Member of the VAAD Ukraine Coordation Council, economist

Leonid Finberg Director of the NaUKMA Center for the Studies of History and Culture of Eastern European Jewry, VAAD Ukraine Vice Chairman

Anatoliy Podolsky Director of the Ukrainian Center for Holocaust Studies, Vice Chairman of VAAD Ukraine

Igor Kuperberg Chairman of the Zionist Federation of Ukraine, Vice Chairman of VAAD Ukraine

Semen Belman Vice President of the Jewish Council of Ukraine, President of the Chernigiv Jewish Community

Alexander Gaidar Leader of the Union of Ukrainian Progressive Judaism Religious Communities

Vyacheslav Likhachev CNCU Chief expert in monitoring and analysing xenophobia and anti-Semitism, member of the VAAD Ukraine Coordination Council(citizen of Russia and Israel)

Michael Gold Editor-in-chief of the VAAD Ukraine newspaper “Hadashot”

Galina Haraz Engineer (citizen of Ukraine and Israel)

Igor Turov PhD in history, Director of the Jewish Studies Certificate Program of VAAD Ukraine, VAAD Ukraine Presidium member

Diana Gold VAAD Ukraine Presidium member

Alexander Roitburg Artist

Evgen Greben Director of the “Maccabi” Jewish Cultural and Sports Society (Kyiv)

Grigoriy Pickman “B'nei B'rith Leopolis” President

Igor Kerez VAAD Ukraine Trustee Board member, businessman

Artem Fedorchuk, Director of the Intarnationsl Centar on Jewish Education and Field Studies

(Signatures still being collected)

By the way if there was violence in Kiev you'd think we would have videos by now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:43:20 am
Ask Mila Kunis how it's good to be zhydim in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on March 10, 2014, 11:52:15 am
I'm not sure I know of any cultures more (ostensibly) self-absorbed or etnocentric than modern, so-called 'Jewish' culture, despite or perhaps due to being highly international.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 10, 2014, 12:51:09 pm
Tovi, i absolutely agree with you, non-mainstream is the real truth, always. Just like http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

Wake up, sheeple!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 01:19:47 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on March 10, 2014, 04:09:05 am
Right, let's pretend that a woman who failed in her one bid in a national election, and quit her job in the middle of her term as Governor of a state with the population of the city of Fort Worth (Only the 5th largest city in Texas) because she couldn't stand the heat, is somehow at all relevant to this discussion.  :rolleyes:

Says he who brings up completely irrelevant things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 03:51:30 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:43:20 am
Ask Mila Kunis how it's good to be zhydim in Ukraine.

Well I would love to hear her voice again, true.

Edit : Tovi are you for real, it's literally one idiot calling her names, in fucking december of last year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2251446/Ukranian-politician-slams-Mila-Kunis-Anti-Semitic-slur.html

also, daily mail because yolo
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 04:42:43 pm
He called her "zhidovka" which is not like nаzi or anything, just a harsh way to call someone a jew. The word zhid (zhidovka is a female version of the word) is an old slavic word, synonym to jew. Nowadays it's mostly used to show no respect using informal words. Russians use rants against Ukrainians all the time: hohol is the word. Ukrainians use "katsap" for Russians. So there is nothing nаzi in this. I live in Odessa which has more jews than most of other Ukrainian cities and I've never seen or heard any stories about nаzis killing jews in my city since the independence of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 04:43:16 pm
You want fresh news ?

6th Us Fleet is coming toward Crimea. NATO's troops are already at Lviv. Units of tanks have been seen at the Poland's border.
The plan is : invasion of Ukrainia by Nato's troops, with the help of the local dictatorship.
And this, was planned by Brezinski many years ago, as many other imperial policies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 10, 2014, 04:45:34 pm
Can someone just ban him so we could discuss real news and situation?  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 10, 2014, 04:46:22 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 04:42:43 pm
The word zhid (zhidovka is a female version of the word) is an old slavic word, synonym to jew. Nowadays it's mostly used to show no respect using informal words.

 :mrgreen:

We call jews "zsidó" even to this day.  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 04:49:45 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 04:43:16 pm
You want fresh news ?

6th Us Fleet is coming toward Crimea. NATO's troops are already at Lviv. Units of tanks have been seen at the Poland's border.
The plan is : invasion of Ukrainia by Nato's troops, with the help of the local dictatorship.
And this, was planned by Brezinski many years ago, as many other imperial policies.

any proofs? Sounds like bullshit. What I really know is that 2nd high ranked officer deserted from ukrainian army in Crimea. Colonel, the commander of automobile battalion of naval forces. First he got kidnapped, afterwards he showed up completely drunk (also looked like beaten) and declared that he stands for Russian army from now and on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 04:56:35 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 04:49:45 pm
any proofs? Sounds like bullshit. What I really know is that 2nd high ranked officer deserted from ukrainian army in Crimea. Colonel, the commander of automobile battalion of naval forces. First he got kidnapped, afterwards he showed up completely drunk (also looked like beaten) and declared that he stands for Russian army from now and on.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/us-sends-warships-to-crimea-hundreds-of-nato-troops-land-in-western-ukraine-2909224.html

The information comes from Oleg Tsarev, Ukrainian deputy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 05:00:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 04:56:35 pm
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/us-sends-warships-to-crimea-hundreds-of-nato-troops-land-in-western-ukraine-2909224.html

The information comes from Oleg Tsarev, Ukrainian minister..

Just ban this Tovi from this thread, I beg you.

Fresh news... a link with a post made 10 days ago with rumours coming from Oleg Tsarev, who IS NOT a minister, just one of retards from former Yanukovich Team.

Yeah, nice ninja edit. Anyway your message is quoted and Tsarev is just a known retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:03:35 pm
Censorship, dictatorship. Is it the new Ukraine ?

You are good westerner soldier, welcome in EU !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 10, 2014, 05:04:38 pm
Trollvi pls

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 10, 2014, 05:05:02 pm
Pics of hundreds nato troops, plz. I'm sure Lviv citizens have cameras on their phones.
Quote from: serr on March 10, 2014, 04:45:34 pm
Can someone just ban him so we could discuss real news and situation?  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 10, 2014, 05:06:05 pm
Quote from: serr on March 10, 2014, 04:45:34 pm
Can someone just ban him so we could discuss real news and situation?  :D
I 2nd this notion :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 10, 2014, 05:07:54 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 11:08:47 am
I'm french, and I just do not listen mainstream medias.

Do you remember when french president said to not go in Irak ? And what about american reaction ?
We know what they are doing all over the world.

Yeah... about that... plz join Russian version of empire alone, been there, done that, yes it sucks and yes - US empire is better. Even if you are such a silly emo hipster, constantly needing to be :::speshul:::
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 05:08:12 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:03:35 pm
Censorship, dictatorship. Is it the new Ukraine ?

You are good westerner soldier, welcome in EU !

Imagine situation: you're having a conversation with 10 friends in a round table. You're discussing something, you all have different opinions, you can even debate a little bit. But then just some random guy comes in, sits on a table and makes a huge pile of shit. That's you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 10, 2014, 05:10:13 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 04:56:35 pm
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/us-sends-warships-to-crimea-hundreds-of-nato-troops-land-in-western-ukraine-2909224.html

The information comes from Oleg Tsarev, Ukrainian deputy.
Oh, Throne, the comments on that site :lol:

I knew one of these "knowing-the-truth, NWO is everywhere"-nuts IRL (friend of a POS flatmate) for a few months - dumbfuck only begins to describe the guy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
I must admit that I do not live in Ukraine. But if I should trust you, there is no na-zis, no antisemitism, no illegal government, no Nato special forces in Ukraine. From where I live, your propaganda is not better than the russian's one.

Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 05:12:32 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
I must admit that I do not live in Ukraine. But if I should trust you, there is no na-zis, no antisemitism, no illegal government, no Nato special forces in Ukraine. From where I live, your propaganda is not better than the russian's one.

Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 10, 2014, 05:13:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
[...]
I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
+1 just for this bit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 10, 2014, 05:48:44 pm
just watched on cnn, news crew went to Crimea, the russians have set up a border placing armored carriers and tanks along it, digging trenches and placing sandbags all a while flying a russian flag above the checkpoint.  They have also placed signs along the trenches stating "caution Minefield".  They interviewed a local ukrainian who stated the signs are not a hoax, his neighbors dog was blown up in the field.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on March 10, 2014, 05:50:06 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 04:43:16 pm
Units of tanks have been seen at the Poland's border.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 10, 2014, 06:03:37 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 05:08:12 pm
Imagine situation: you're having a conversation with 10 friends in a round table. You're discussing something, you all have different opinions, you can even debate a little bit. But then just some random guy comes in, sits on a table and makes a huge pile of shit. That's you.

I dont see how he should ban himself, if you and Oberyn and Xant stays  :rolleyes: A debate table isnt a circlejerk with 99% people agreeing with themselves, thus people like him should be able to stay, whatever you think of his views.

I dont agree with most Tovi posts, especially about NWO bullshit (I believe in a cynical constant geopolitical war balance), but in the last pages you've been acting like holier than thou, and seeing most of your "friendly debating" messages in this thread, you should honestly shut the fuck up and stop trying to pressure people who dont believe in what you say to leave the thread. Disgusting.

If any of what he said is true and we learn from it in the near future, I'll quote it for you so you can learn to stay humble.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 10, 2014, 06:08:08 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 10, 2014, 06:03:37 pm
I dont see how he should ban himself, if you and Oberyn and Xant stays  :rolleyes: A debate table isnt a circlejerk with 99% people agreeing with themselves, thus people like him should be able to stay, whatever you think of his views.

I dont agree with most Tovi posts, especially about NWO bullshit (I believe in a cynical constant geopolitical war balance), but in the last pages you've been acting like holier than thou, and seeing most of your "friendly debating" messages in this thread, you should honestly shut the fuck up and stop trying to pressure people who dont believe in what you say to leave the thread. Disgusting.

If any of what he said is true and we learn from it in the near future, I'll quote it for you so you can learn to stay humble.

alright you stale baguette, no need to stoop as low when you are complaining about them doing it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 06:08:53 pm
Butan once again demonstrates his inability to read.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 10, 2014, 06:10:37 pm
I can read that you're an obnoxious dumwit trying to over-intellectualize everything sent your way, when you dont just try to sound smart and only end up being a smartass; and still I'm not asking you to leave this thread or thanking you if you do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 06:18:32 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 10, 2014, 06:10:37 pm
I can read that you're an obnoxious dumwit trying to over-intellectualize everything sent your way, when you dont just try to sound smart and only end up being a smartass; and still I'm not asking you to leave this thread or thanking you if you do.
It's called "understanding what you read." But in your case it's "over-intellectualizing", I guess, since reading comprehension is something extremely difficult for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 10, 2014, 06:20:00 pm
Quote from: Kalp on March 10, 2014, 05:50:06 pm
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All threetwo of them  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 10, 2014, 06:36:04 pm
Mainstream media here talks about a 'firefight' between RUS and UKR forces, and RUS took some base without much resistance.
Couldn't really pay attention to it, I heard it in radio

Did this happen as it is said?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 10, 2014, 07:03:04 pm
This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 07:17:19 pm
What does "over-intellectualizing" means anyway ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 10, 2014, 07:23:41 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 07:17:19 pm
What does "over-intellectualizing" means anyway ?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/overintellectualize (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/overintellectualize)


overintellectualize (third-person singular simple present overintellectualizes, present participle overintellectualizing, simple past and past participle overintellectualized)

  1:  To treat something in an excessively intellectual manner


It doesn't even got a bad meaning to it, Lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 10, 2014, 07:26:25 pm
Means excessive and often abstractive rationalisation of an idea or action.

That can not be bad, but when the point is more down to the ground, it is mostly ineffective and useless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 07:30:17 pm
Sounds like a cheap trick to speak your way out of a lost argument
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 10, 2014, 07:34:41 pm
Who cares whether we are speaking in layman's terms or in abstract ones? Can we just get back to the discussion, if there is something more to add from either side, I do not follow this thread to see who is better at internet arguing, but rather to try and get a broader picture of the situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 08:07:28 pm
I'm sure where Butan comes from calling someone intelligent is an insult.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Berserkadin on March 10, 2014, 08:21:22 pm
Over-intellectualizing sounds like a term that people of the same intellectual caliber as Sarah Palin would use.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 10, 2014, 09:01:37 pm
I was never fond of how Oberyn and Xant discuss in these forums. They tend to insult (Mostly Oberyn) and can be quite arrogant at times (Mostly Xant). It makes me wonder why you guys are having such attitudes. Because you're not going to change anyones mind in a discussion when you insult them and act superior to them. All you will probably achieve is them distancing themselves even more from your opinion.

At times you post good opinions that differ from mine, and even if there's many shitposters in the forum, I'd rather ignore you fellows and have a discussion with them because of the behaviour you show.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 09:11:22 pm
Well, y'see, you reap what you sow.

The Xant is rough with rough-necks.

- Old Jungle Saying.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 10, 2014, 09:34:09 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on March 10, 2014, 09:01:37 pm
I was never fond of how Oberyn and Xant discuss in these forums. They tend to insult (Mostly Oberyn) and can be quite arrogant at times (Mostly Xant). It makes me wonder why you guys are having such attitudes. Because you're not going to change anyones mind in a discussion when you insult them and act superior to them. All you will probably achieve is them distancing themselves even more from your opinion.

At times you post good opinions that differ from mine, and even if there's many shitposters in the forum, I'd rather ignore you fellows and have a discussion with them because of the behaviour you show.


(click to show/hide)

It's not just two of them. Gnjus does the same, Olwen too, Gingerpussy as well, Noctivagant... you catch my drift? :wink:

There's a reason why everyone in dev team besides cmp is being nice when communicating with players.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 09:43:17 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 10, 2014, 09:34:09 pm
It's not just two of them. Gnjus does the same, Olwen too, Gingerpussy as well, Noctivagant... you catch my drift? :wink:

There's a reason why everyone in dev team besides cmp is being nice when communicating with players.

None of those arrogant types have been able to actually back their "you're an idiot" claims with actual arguments as reliably as Xant, though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 10, 2014, 09:46:26 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on March 10, 2014, 09:01:37 pm
(click to show/hide)

Oberyn - okay, but Xant? I find him funny :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 10, 2014, 09:48:54 pm
Don't understand the need to show that someone is an idiot. Point of an discussion is to prove that your stance is correct. Debate is a tool like everything else. Just because it involves two people talking, doesn't mean it should be about them and their feelings.

Back on-topic, from what I read today in the news, war has already started? Is there a way to avoid it now or shit has hit the fan?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 10, 2014, 10:28:45 pm
from FB. made me  :)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2014, 10:30:05 pm
Putin needs to protect the Russian people from the genocide that's happening in Ukraine, damn right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 10, 2014, 10:35:47 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 10, 2014, 09:43:17 pm
None of those arrogant types have been able to actually back their "you're an idiot" claims with actual arguments as reliably as Xant, though.

You're an idiot, Kafein.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 10, 2014, 10:44:16 pm
Quote from: Osiris on March 10, 2014, 10:28:45 pm
from FB. made me  :)

(click to show/hide)


Now, that shit is beyond retarded, please never post again for the sake of this thread.
The level of silliness is just through the roof.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 10, 2014, 10:45:41 pm
Didn't this pic appear some pages back?

Still not really imaginative
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on March 10, 2014, 11:01:42 pm
but its funny :P and more seriously probably portrays how a lot of Russians feel about the west being up in arms :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on March 10, 2014, 11:04:42 pm
Anyways it's time for pics more relevant to the topic:
Meanwhile in Ukraine
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 11, 2014, 12:11:33 am
Now that cat is some proper intellectual input for the thread.

I bet even Xant agrees... How could he not? It has cute kitten. Kitten can't be wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 11, 2014, 12:31:31 am
Quote from: Porthos on March 10, 2014, 11:04:42 pm
Anyways it's time for pics more relevant to the topic:
Meanwhile in Ukraine
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beast combo with your profile avatar  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 11, 2014, 12:58:22 am
Calling idiocy for what it is makes idiots cry. QQ, idiots, QQ.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 11, 2014, 01:06:30 am
Quote from: Butan on March 10, 2014, 06:03:37 pm
I dont see how he should ban himself, if you and Oberyn and Xant stays  :rolleyes: A debate table isnt a circlejerk with 99% people agreeing with themselves, thus people like him should be able to stay, whatever you think of his views.

Yeah. There is nothing wrong when people agree on things. There is nothing wrong when people don't agree neither. But with your attitude it's just all wrong. You pick your position in debate because "look mom, I don't support mainstream, I'm special" and it's hardly even an opinion because you question a lot but then refuse to hear answers. You speak just to speak bringing nothing useful into actual discussion. What is strange that you don't even try to hide it. And instead of discussing actually Ukraine and what is happening there you get your attention. I guess you should be happy now.

If you want any useful discussion or debates, you have to come with facts, trustworthy links and news. There is no need to make this thread a flamewar.

Some recent info: self proclaimed prime minister of Crimea Aksyonov wants to "nationalize" private and Ukrainian property after joining Russia. It will cover not only Ukrainian military property in Crimea (vehicles, vessels, aircraft), but also energetics (even private). He mentioned that the list will be wider but majority of private factories will stay private. I personally see it as a huge pile of money, Aksyonov will sell a lot of ground there and will steal billions of dollars. That's quite obvious.

Just some of my thoughts in case Crimea gets to Russia: As I've already stated in one of my posts - Crimea will be isolated pretty bad. First of all: electricity, gas, water, food, communications. It all comes from the North and will come from the other country for international prices (read as extremely high). Crimea is a region with almost no production, it consumes significantly more than it produces. Even if all taxes will come to their local budget - they would be barely able to pay even a half of their needs (if they were in Ukraine). While being a part of Russia all the problems will get to a critical level. Their main source of money and working places is tourism. 2/3-3/4 of tourists came from other parts of Ukraine. It doesn't require to be smart to understand that people will avoid unrecognised country (will be the same situation as always: recognized by Russia and a couple of 3rd world countries). Also it's quite obvious that Crimea will not compete with tourism rivals (just rebuilt Sochi in Russia or Odessa in Ukraine). I guess it will require A LOT of money from Russia to make things working at least somehow. Because if it will get annexed without fight - there will be nobody to blame (like you can't blame Ukrainians for destroying their economy with tanks). So other regions of Russia feel new territories with their own pocket.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 11, 2014, 01:14:36 am
Dave, you have to stop overintellectualizing things, i.e explaining them to people as if they were more than 5 years old. It hurts the brain of moronic conspiracy theorists. Also don't use rough language, it makes little pigtailed schoolgirls cry
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 11, 2014, 01:22:18 am
Even if someone says something absolutely retarded, you have to say "that's a very valid point of view, we all have opinions and they're all just as right, you can't argue about opinions, kumbayaah my lord, kumbayaah" or feelings will be hurt. And we wouldn't want that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 11, 2014, 01:36:38 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:04:11 am
(click to show/hide)


Crimea may become isolated, but if the Russians are pushing that bad for it, they certainly have a "step 2" of their annexation program ready. Else they are both expansionist AND stupid, and the way they dealt with Ukraine uprising and subsequent weakness, they may be called brash but not stupid (and one may call for the other but only in time  :mrgreen:)

Since they have a fleet in their ports for so long, and most probably the many army personel and barracks that comes with them, it wouldnt be totally impossible to understand that they know how to supply themselves, and by extension, the region. Thats for sure going to be a problem if they dont do anything, but most probably only in the mid-long term, and I heard they had plans to build more bridges (for land transport, electricity transport, gas?) from Crimea to Russia to alleviate those problems.

It may not look like it on the global map, but Crimea is quite close to Russia :

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Also tourism is always bad when there is war (looming or for real), but except if the war is long and bloody, it will soon be time to open up shops and continue the life.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 11, 2014, 02:16:11 am
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:04:11 am
Else they are both expansionist AND stupid
I think that if you are the size of Russia being expansionist when it comes to tiny swaths of territory is fairly stupid in itself. Think they are gonna have to give a good slapping to whoever did the cost/benefit calculation for this course of action at the end of all this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 02:29:37 am
Quote from: Gnjus on March 10, 2014, 10:35:47 pm
You're an idiot, Kafein.

No I'm not. Here are my arguments:

- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 11, 2014, 02:43:31 am
Quote from: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 02:29:37 am
- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: djavo on March 11, 2014, 03:03:29 am
I really hope there won't be any war because this guys will kill everything that moves...

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 11, 2014, 03:24:12 am
I agree that Kafein is an idiot.

Back on topic, please let's stop throwing shit at each other.

(Here is some more sober theories for the extremists on both sides)

Putin is doing this mainly for himself to gain popularity and his re-election. (Just like it can be argued Bush did..)

If Ukraine would join EU, or just simply fall under the western sphere of influence, Russia wouldn't have been "pushed" so far west since the 1550s. He manages to create the idea in many Russian people that Russia and Russians well being is threatened by the west, which is utter bullshit. Germans or French are not threatened culturally by the EU, why should Russians.

The EU:
To understand what is really going on here, we first have to understand what EU is. EU is primarily a mechanism to transfer power from the political governments to the owners of Capital. Before EU, any country could protect their industry, threaten to stop coal transfers, block the sale of cheese or water. Basically, every country could do like Russia do now: Stop the flow of gas, give cheaper gas/oil to their friends, and trade it for anything else that might have been agreed upon. Be it visas or loyalty or simply peace.

The problem with this, for me and you, is that it is horribly inefficient (And leads to an abudance of wars..). The system quickly becomes extremely complex, and elected, incompetent politicians don't have a chance to understand or react quickly to what the market (you) requires. Thus Western Europe have been growing for nearly 70 years while the east have been left in the dust, materialistically speaking. Basically, EU transforms all assets one could normally bargain with into Money. Those that have power in the EU are those with Money, not governments, but private individuals, and in the end, you, the consumer.  (If you choose to stop buying your local Cheese and opt for French cheese, because it's just better, then that is a small vote in the capitalist system to the French to produce more and your local cheese to GET BETTER or DIE.)

That is, in essence, the democratic power of (Fair) capitalism. Less power to government, more to you.

Now, Putin knows exactly what this means. He knows what access to the good shit would do to a Russian economy. He knows how his own power would be obliterated if Russia itself would join such an organization. And he knows that Ukraine is just one step on the way to Russia..

Now, one could take the perspective globally, which would benefit Putins point of view even more. Russia has the largest landmass of any country on earth and they probably only have very rough estimates of the resources they control. It is not conspiratorical to say that one day, perhaps even now, the rest of the world hungers for those resources. Russia is not Belgium..

Thats 2 reasons for why Putin does like he does. 1 to keep himself in power, 2nd is to keep EU as far away as possible. In the meanwhile, Russians have to suffer under a rotten kleptocracy, and Ukraine will be kept down and weak as a buffer.

Sad, but I think it is the bitter truth. For Ukraine, I hope you get to keep at least the east, and don't take too long getting up to speed and showing Russia what a fair (non corrupt), democratic capitalism can do. Go west, then go back home with lessons learned and fix home.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 11, 2014, 03:26:07 am
Quote from: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 02:29:37 am
No I'm not. Here are my arguments:

- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences
the fact of your answer is proof that your first argument is a lie D:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on March 11, 2014, 03:34:52 am
Quote from: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 02:29:37 am
No I'm not. Here are my arguments:

- Higher IQ than 98% of the population (complete test)
- Bachelor in Computer Science with great distinction
- Two published articles in international conferences

You're Chinese?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 11, 2014, 03:37:14 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 11, 2014, 03:24:12 am
Thus Western Europe have been growing for nearly 70 years while the east have been left in the dust, materialistically speaking.
1 sentence, 2 lies.
Western Europe was growing... yes... but you shouldnt forget about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
while the east have been left in the dust... lol
mostly everything was built and\or developed after WW 2 and as you know, USSR was one of 2 most powerful  countrys in the world... and as you understand the second one wasnt in europe. so you just did call this place as "left in dust"?

even after your explanation I cannot understand how come that EU is a good choise. personally I wish to work for the country to make a profit to the country and then country supports me with all my civil rights. sadly Ukraine is european country and you already told why its cant be so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Havoco on March 11, 2014, 04:05:01 am
Quote from: djavo on March 11, 2014, 03:03:29 am
I really hope there won't be any war because this guys will kill everything that moves...

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Is that supposed to be ur citizens police over there or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 08:03:42 am
Quote
If you choose to stop buying your local Cheese and opt for French cheese, because it's just better, then that is a small vote in the capitalist system to the French to produce more and your local cheese to GET BETTER or DIE.

Well, that's main argument against EU in Ukraine. People are afraid that all industry in Ukraine will die because it cannot compete with EU and people will lose their jobs. What they don't understand is that it is inevitable, that our industry has to GET BETTER or DIE, that there is no way we could maintain outdated non-profitable production forever, that it would lead us to default sooner or later. Still doesn't make it any easier because their worries are quite reasonable and I'm afraid of what will happen when people will start losing their jobs in masses and communal tarrifs will grow higher.

That is what Putin is waiting for, I guess, when it happens - he will strike with propaganda first and support riots with army later, getting big part of Ukraine in addition to Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 11, 2014, 08:21:25 am
Croatian mainstream media:

This shows pro-russian soliders (whatever that means, doesn't say if the are ukrainian soliders supporting Russia or russian soliders, maybe by the cammo or the badges on their sleeves Dave and the guys can tell) on the border crossing Chongar (don't know where that is again could use help from the locals) checking people trying to get into Chrimea.

The pictures show much and nothing at the same time, the context is missing.

What I lol'd about is this soliders state of the art flashilght on an AK  :mrgreen:

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here's the whole gallery for those interested

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 08:27:06 am
Chongar is one of two ways from Crimea to mainland, the eastern one.
As for camo - it was used by Berkut - former ukrainian police special forces who were the main power opposing protesters in Kiev.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 11, 2014, 08:42:37 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 11, 2014, 03:37:14 am
1 sentence, 2 lies.
Western Europe was growing... yes... but you shouldnt forget about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
while the east have been left in the dust... lol
mostly everything was built and\or developed after WW 2 and as you know, USSR was one of 2 most powerful  countrys in the world... and as you understand the second one wasnt in europe. so you just did call this place as "left in dust"?

even after your explanation I cannot understand how come that EU is a good choise. personally I wish to work for the country to make a profit to the country and then country supports me with all my civil rights. sadly Ukraine is european country and you already told why its cant be so.
Jesus, you really are an idiot. Sorry, but it is rather obvious in this one.
First of all, why do you think the USSR broke apart and opened up to the West? Because they still were one of the most powerful in the World? Really? Is that the reason you believe in? I honestly do wanna know why you think the USSR broke into bits.
Second, the beautiful part of the West is that you can be the most uninformed, egoistic, conspirational-theory believing, unemployed douchebag around and still have civil rights nonetheless.

Quote from: serr on March 11, 2014, 08:03:42 am
Well, that's main argument against EU in Ukraine. People are afraid that all industry in Ukraine will die because it cannot compete with EU and people will lose their jobs. What they don't understand is that it is inevitable, that our industry has to GET BETTER or DIE, that there is no way we could maintain outdated non-profitable production forever, that it would lead us to default sooner or later. Still doesn't make it any easier because their worries are quite reasonable and I'm afraid of what will happen when people will start losing their jobs in masses and communal tarrifs will grow higher.

That is what Putin is waiting for, I guess, when it happens - he will strike with propaganda first and support riots with army later, getting big part of Ukraine in addition to Crimea.
People seem to forget that the market has its very own interest in the Ukraine joining the EU. Granted, it's as far away from a noble cause as possible but unemployment rate isn't necessarily an issue if you're willing to sell.
A new country is a new market and new place to build factories with cheaper labour compared to other countries. Rather simple to understand. Just don't make the mistake to compare your country with established industries like France and Germany. That won't happen over night but over decades. There will be new factories from VW, Peugeot and others. New, shiny factories where people can work. For low money ofc, probably still enough to live from...

I'm clearly not saying that it will be awesome but I am actually confident that it will be going forward slowly. Not to mention that becoming part of the EU means that you can simply grab your bag and go to another EU country and start working there. That has its good and bad sides, ofc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 08:50:02 am
Quote
There will be new factories from VW, Peugeot and others. New, shiny factories where people can work. For low money ofc, probably still enough to live from...

I'm clearly not saying that it will be awesome but I am actually confident that it will be going forward slowly.

I understand that and yes, obviously it would get better over time and EU is good thing for Ukraine in long perspective. What I am scared about is this year and next winter, I'm not really sure Ukraine can survive it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 11, 2014, 09:06:47 am
I am pretty sure that there will be quite an amount of EU money coming in soon, be it with a label saying "humanitarian help" or "economical support for a new member". Either way, there's money involved, I guess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 09:17:07 am
Quote
I am pretty sure that there will be quite an amount of EU money coming in soon, be it with a label saying "humanitarian help" or "economical support for a new member". Either way, there's money involved, I guess.
We are not new member yet and there is long road to become one. As for money - sadly, we need those money to pay for old loans in the first place and to improve our industry even slightly in second. I understand what our new government are doing and I support it but many other people won't and that is the biggest danger in this situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 11, 2014, 10:24:21 am
Joining the EU would most likely be a lengthy process, with a lot of change involved, like global democratic elections, changes in legislation including maybe even the Constitution, adapting to the Euro (including negotiating the initial rate exchange which may hit families hard if not done properly), etc
Depending on the state of the country, this can take some time, (in Spain's case it took 9 years, after 40 years of Dictatorship, but nowadays it will most likely be quicker), but as soon as the negotiations start, there will be help (read it as you wish, mostly money), and demands going that way. A very back and forth process, that should at the end grant you entry, increase trade to the rest of the union, allow free movement of your citizens into the rest, and other things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 11, 2014, 11:23:38 am
Quote from: Moncho on March 11, 2014, 10:24:21 am
Joining the EU would most likely be a lengthy process, with a lot of change involved, like global democratic elections, changes in legislation including maybe even the Constitution, adapting to the Euro (including negotiating the initial rate exchange which may hit families hard if not done properly), etc
Depending on the state of the country, this can take some time, (in Spain's case it took 9 years, after 40 years of Dictatorship, but nowadays it will most likely be quicker), but as soon as the negotiations start, there will be help (read it as you wish, mostly money), and demands going that way. A very back and forth process, that should at the end grant you entry, increase trade to the rest of the union, allow free movement of your citizens into the rest, and other things.


all proceses mentioned above take years, decades, even as a new member you are not allowed to work freely in all of the union members and are not in the Schengen zone immidiatley, so EU may be a good long term goal for Ukraine in the next 10 or 20 years, ofc if there are "higher" interestes in the country like Ukraines pielines and natural resources than the process is faster, unfortunatly that hits regular people in that process the most, I don't see a bright, prosperous future for Ukraine in the next decades even if they "win" in this conflict without a full blown civil war and start going the EU way in the next months/years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 11, 2014, 11:26:23 am
Believe it or not, I just got opportunity through my work to apply to become one of international observers/project staff in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 11:28:39 am
Wow, so you will try to go to Crimea to see what's happening there and will be stopped at border? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 11, 2014, 11:30:10 am
Nah, probably Kiev. However, I am probably gonna pass, because I just can't leave my wife alone with a baby for couple of months.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 11, 2014, 01:04:44 pm
Quote from: serr on March 11, 2014, 09:17:07 am
We are not new member yet and there is long road to become one. As for money - sadly, we need those money to pay for old loans in the first place and to improve our industry even slightly in second. I understand what our new government are doing and I support it but many other people won't and that is the biggest danger in this situation.

what the hell are you talking about lol, the united states just gave you guys 1 billion dollars in a relief package, you guys are fucking set!

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/03/06/US-House-approves-Ukraine-aid-bill/UPI-97931394138793/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 01:07:24 pm
So? Where do you see contradiction with what I said?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 11, 2014, 01:11:17 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 01:16:37 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 11, 2014, 03:26:07 am
the fact of your answer is proof that your first argument is a lie D:

Perhaps I answered because I have a clear idea of what an idiot is, unlike you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:06:13 pm
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Quote from: serr on March 11, 2014, 08:03:42 am
Well, that's main argument against EU in Ukraine. People are afraid that all industry in Ukraine will die because it cannot compete with EU and people will lose their jobs. What they don't understand is that it is inevitable, that our industry has to GET BETTER or DIE, that there is no way we could maintain outdated non-profitable production forever, that it would lead us to default sooner or later. Still doesn't make it any easier because their worries are quite reasonable and I'm afraid of what will happen when people will start losing their jobs in masses and communal tarrifs will grow higher.
That is what Putin is waiting for, I guess, when it happens - he will strike with propaganda first and support riots with army later, getting big part of Ukraine in addition to Crimea.


This point applies to 90% of the EU countries, including France, and the anti-EU pro-extremist political groups are growing ever powerful with the years of crisis because of that (and they grew the stronger in countries which took the hit the baddest, including old EU members).
I dont know who's the most economically stable between EU and Russia, but if its Russia and EU just crumble in the coming years, I hope your main argument to defend Ukraine poor choice wont be "Putin was waiting for it, evil mastermind!"  :P


People losing their jobs all over the old continent, life not being cheaper but also costier, and your country wants to join?
I think that between GET BETTER and DIE, everyone would choose to GET BETTER, except if it means they have to die first.
Not forgetting that, as you said, joining EU is a long process, there is a lot of deal to sign, a lot of different "level" of membership. The change of side from Russia to EU will take a very long time and its not sure you will gain more than you lost in the process. Westernizing isnt always winning.

If foreigners establish factories in your country they will just exploit the hell out of your poorest people and when you begin to riot over salaries they will move on to the next country, rinse and repeat. Enjoy the few years of employement. This, is EU, a free market political/trade zone. For reference look at the most recent countries who joined it or just re-read what Beast wrote in the 80'-90' pages. Or just read what Molly wrote himself recently.


Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2014, 08:42:37 am
First of all, why do you think the USSR broke apart and opened up to the West? Because they still were one of the most powerful in the World? Really? Is that the reason you believe in? I honestly do wanna know why you think the USSR broke into bits.

Please enlighten us? Does USSR broke because USA/EU too kewl kawai desu free democracy or just because they lost the cold war?


Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2014, 09:06:47 am
I am pretty sure that there will be quite an amount of EU money coming in soon, be it with a label saying "humanitarian help" or "economical support for a new member". Either way, there's money involved, I guess.

Love how you find normal that USA/EU kinda buy Ukraine loyalty  :lol:  Russia did it for years, lets not be naive (and thats partly why they didnt break from them till then) but you shouldnt be too happy about it, since it just mean what me and others have said all this time : Ukraine crisis is just the result of influence contest between EU (USA) - Russia, like "who throw the most money at them" competition.
How can you not see it and be happy for them receiving money of someone who supported the utter destruction of the country of Ukraine just to have control over it makes me wanna cry a little.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 11, 2014, 02:08:49 pm
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What's this? O_o

Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 11, 2014, 01:04:44 pm
what the hell are you talking about lol, the united states just gave you guys 1 billion dollars in a relief package, you guys are fucking set!

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/03/06/US-House-approves-Ukraine-aid-bill/UPI-97931394138793/
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but 1 billion is not that much for a country such as Ukraine.

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Baltics, for example, have grown under EU. They experienced a period of extreme growth before the economic crisis, during which they were among the hardest hit, but, following EU and IMF advice, they recovered and are once again growing. EU has been good for Baltics.

USSR collapsed because it's economic system was shit and unsustainable. It was powerful only as a military and industrial powerhouse, due to it's immense size.

And you still don't see the reasons why most eastern European countries wish to have ties with the West, rather than Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 02:28:09 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:06:13 pm
If foreigners establish factories in your country they will just exploit the hell out of your poorest people and when you begin to riot over salaries they will move on to the next country, rinse and repeat. Enjoy the creation of a middle class.

Fixed


Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:06:13 pm
Please enlighten us? Does USSR broke because USA/EU too kewl kawai desu free democracy or just because they lost the cold war?

USSR broke by suffocating under the shit it was burying itself into. Nobody lost the cold war by military defeat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:35:23 pm
The creation of a middle class is often the start of null economical growth  :wink:


Quote from: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 02:28:09 pm
Nobody lost the cold war by military defeat.

One part of the "cold war" meaning is that there was no "direct military conflict", yet you forget that it can mean "undirect military conflict" (Korea-China-Taiwan-Vietnam-Cuba-Saudi Arabia-Iran-Afghanistan- only to name a few) where there was indeed victories or defeats. Also lets not forget part of why USSR broke is because they overdid themselves in "who's the master race" military/space competition: military spending was absurd in the final years of USSR existence, by both USA and USSR. If USA had broke first, what would you have argued about?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 11, 2014, 02:42:46 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:35:23 pm
The creation of a middle class is often the start of null economical growth  :wink:


One part of the "cold war" meaning is that there was no "direct military conflict", yet you forget that it can mean "undirect military conflict" (Korea-China-Taiwan-Vietnam-Cuba-Saudi Arabia-Iran-Afghanistan- only to name a few) where there was indeed victories or defeats. Also lets not forget part of why USSR broke is because they overdid themselves in "who's the master race" military/space competition: military spending was absurd in the final years of USSR existence, by both USA and USSR. If USA had broke first, what would you have argued about?
Cold War proxy-conflicts had little influence on the outcome. If anything, the few victories that USSR did get, actually drove it deeper into the shithole, as those countries, that were now under it's influence, had even worse economies and thus had to be artificially sustained by USSR, to create the illusion of a "socialist paradise".
USA also had enormous military spending, and they also took part in the Space Race, yet they did not collapse as a result.
USSR having a powerful economy was never anything more than a bluff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 02:47:00 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:35:23 pm
The creation of a middle class is often the start of null economical growth  :wink:

First, where does that come from ?
Second, I care more about standard of living than economic growth.

Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:35:23 pm
One part of the "cold war" meaning is that there was no "direct military conflict", yet you forget that it can mean "undirect military conflict" (Korea-China-Taiwan-Vietnam-Cuba-Saudi Arabia-Iran-Afghanistan- only to name a few) where there was indeed victories or defeats. Also lets not forget part of why USSR broke is because they overdid themselves in "who's the master race" military/space competition: military spending was absurd in the final years of USSR existence, by both USA and USSR. If USA had broke first, what would you have argued about?

Are you suggesting that the USSR lost the cold war because the western side won some of the indirect conflicts ? Because I don't really see the link here. Those conflicts were usually only relevant to the ideologic battle, with little strategic interest besides "containment". Also the US was far from being on the brink of collapse like the USSR was. Even today they still manage to support absurd military spending.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
I'm implying nothing more from now on, my main goal was to make you guys say it for me so that I dont look stupid  :mrgreen:  the fear of over-intellectualizing as taken me, also I think we may go off-topic too much.


But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 11, 2014, 03:38:03 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 11, 2014, 02:08:49 pm
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but 1 billion is not that much for a country such as Ukraine.

was a hint bit of sarcasm, i was going to put in there a bunch of stuff about how now all the Ukrainians can have pools now built in their yards from the money since the russians are claiming their black sea vacation waters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 03:56:04 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.

Economic growth is just an indicator of the "speed" at which a region evolves, not of where it is. In my opinion what's important is where this growth brings you. Countries with two digit growth are actually growing faster than technologic innovation and their population growth, as they are bridging the gap between their economic activity and that of the modern countries. This kind of growth is not sustainable for longer than it takes to cross that gap unless you also have extremely high population growth which isn't desirable at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 11, 2014, 04:48:19 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.
Two digit numbers are usually more of a sign that a country's economy was doing terribly beforehand than a sign that it is doing good now. Such growth numbers usually level out within one, very rarely two decades simply because a country attains an economy that actually starts to function. I literally have no idea how you see sustaining two digit growth numbers as more important than actually providing a higher standard of living to citizens, ergo the creation of a middle class.

Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:06:13 pm
Love how you find normal that USA/EU kinda buy Ukraine loyalty  :lol:  Russia did it for years, lets not be naive (and thats partly why they didnt break from them till then) but you shouldnt be too happy about it, since it just mean what me and others have said all this time : Ukraine crisis is just the result of influence contest between EU (USA) - Russia, like "who throw the most money at them" competition.
How can you not see it and be happy for them receiving money of someone who supported the utter destruction of the country of Ukraine just to have control over it makes me wanna cry a little.
Staggering how you can completely ignore the internal aspects of this conflict and throw it all on the international stage, despite all the Ukranians here telling you otherwise. Your assumptions about the degree of EU involvement in the protests are some tin foil hat euroskeptic shit, is your grandfather De Gaulle or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 11, 2014, 05:18:20 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
I'm implying nothing more from now on, my main goal was to make you guys say it for me so that I dont look stupid  :mrgreen:  the fear of over-intellectualizing as taken me, also I think we may go off-topic too much.


But on creating a middle class in a country, what I meant is that (in Ukraine or wherever) in the last two decades, most countries failed to support a two digits economical growth as soon as people had a better life. Not implying we should keep Ukrainian poor and happy, just that for me they switch an evil for an evil, and not necesseraly the lesser one, even though you will contradict me on that one I'm quite sure.

I told you once, I will repeat it again.
1. You have not lived under russian rule, under communism - you will not understand what its like. You can blabber about evil west all you want, but always remember - you never experienced an alternative so its cheap for you to take your "indepdendent" and "hipster" pose.
2. You do not know the kind of "wild capitalism" thriving under corrupt and moronic government.

Memories of the first and too much of the second were I believe quite high in the list of the reasons for the whole civil unrest (which unfortunately turned into not that civil, once repressions and fire-fights started).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 11, 2014, 05:20:50 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 11, 2014, 04:48:19 pm
Staggering how you can completely ignore the internal aspects of this conflict and throw it all on the international stage, despite all the Ukranians here telling you otherwise. Your assumptions about the degree of EU involvement in the protests are some tin foil hat euroskeptic shit, is your grandfather De Gaulle or something?

You truely think that Ukrainians are the most neutral in this case? There is a good reason you cant be both witness and victim in a trial. Still of course they are the first source of reports since its happening around them, but as much as my point is arguable, such is trying to push for others having better judgement than others, which is my main beef against people in this thread.


Also I am obviously only noting the "not eurocentric-ukraine" facts since most of the posters here are reporting the friendly ones. If the debate was balanced I wouldnt even feel the need to post. Dont confuse devil advocate and will to add fuel to a debate that needs going further away from the single-minded monopoly and staleness it could very well end in, if one side dominate the argument.
Forming your opinion when there is only one voice available is what I call brainwashing, and please dont ask me again "but what if only one side is saying truth/being good"  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 11, 2014, 05:35:36 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 05:20:50 pm
You truely think that Ukrainians are the most neutral in this case? There is a good reason you cant be both witness and victim in a trial. Still of course they are the first source of reports since its happening around them, but as much as my point is arguable, such is trying to push for others having better judgement than others, which is my main beef against people in this thread.


Also I am obviously only noting the "not eurocentric-ukraine" facts since most of the posters here are reporting the friendly ones. If the debate was balanced I wouldnt even feel the need to post. Dont confuse devil advocate and will to add fuel to a debate that needs going further away from the single-minded monopoly and staleness it could very well end in, if one side dominate the argument.
Forming your opinion when there is only one voice available is what I call brainwashing, and please dont ask me again "but what if only one side is saying truth/being good"  :lol:

Attempting to backtrack while keeping up straight face and not ending up a fool - check. Being a hipster has nothing to do with being unbrainwashed devils advocate. Its like arguing agains global warming - only shows ... well... personal qualities :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 11, 2014, 06:53:47 pm
Butan,  your POV makes sense if you think Russia=Eu more or less good and bad, but this is simply not true. Me and Dave have seen both sides with our eyes, as well as Kuujis and PTX have have the baltic perspective.

I'm sorry but Russian system is simply Rotten, bad for people and horrible for Russians and everyone else alike. EU is a far far far far lesser evil. There is no comparison.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 11, 2014, 07:07:48 pm
I'm ready to donate for Butan's trip to provincial Russia (cities excluding Moscow and St. Petersburg), I will earn x10 money winning the bet that he won't survive there longer than 24 hours.

Hot news: Russians and "self-defences" claim that they managed to destroy 2 NATO UAVs with only guns  :lol: :lol: Obviously some bullshit, but funny though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 11, 2014, 07:11:13 pm
Hurry up Ukraine join EU and NATO paradise :twisted:
Imagine never ending applause of former members :D
After few years of it you realize it is most dreadful sound on this planet :?
..and in meantime you began to like Russian vodka again cos after it reality is bearable :lol: 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 11, 2014, 07:15:31 pm
Quote from: Piok on March 11, 2014, 07:11:13 pm
Hurry up Ukraine join EU and NATO paradise :twisted:
Imagine never ending applause of former members :D
After few years of it you realize it is most dreadful sound on this planet :?
..and in meantime you began to like Russian vodka again cos after it reality is bearable :lol:
SHOCKING NEWS FLASH - Even in EU/NATO one has to EARN a good living. On the up side - there is much more security for a common person to strive for his/her goals in life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 11, 2014, 07:37:33 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 11, 2014, 03:37:14 am
Western Europe was growing... yes... but you shouldnt forget about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
while the east have been left in the dust... lol
mostly everything was built and\or developed after WW 2 and as you know, USSR was one of 2 most powerful  countrys in the world... and as you understand the second one wasnt in europe. so you just did call this place as "left in dust"?

even after your explanation I cannot understand how come that EU is a good choise. personally I wish to work for the country to make a profit to the country and then country supports me with all my civil rights. sadly Ukraine is european country and you already told why its cant be so.
Sure, the Great Soviet Union, so stronk!
Lets talk about masterpiece of cooking engineering - Microwave oven.
West: invention in 1947 & mass usage since 1967.
USSR: mass usage in few years after this commie shit collapsed.

I would prefer to be human in a normal country, rather than slave cattle in a great one.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 11, 2014, 07:44:31 pm
At least the walkways were heated.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 11, 2014, 07:44:51 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 11, 2014, 07:15:31 pm
SHOCKING NEWS FLASH - Even in EU/NATO one has to EARN a good living. On the up side - there is much more security for a common person to strive for his/her goals in life.
more security for a common person  :lol: :lol: :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 11, 2014, 08:05:33 pm
The liberator of eastern Ukraine from Nаzism is a member of... ultra-nаzi Russian organization (Russian National Unity). Pavel Gubarev is a self pro-claimed governor of Donetsk (Russian part of it "elected" him a couple of weeks ago). Why I'm not even surprised?  :rolleyes:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 08:25:36 pm
Quote from: Segd on March 11, 2014, 07:37:33 pm
Sure, the Great Soviet Union, so stronk!
Lets talk about masterpiece of cooking engineering - Microwave oven.
West: invention in 1947 & mass usage since 1967.
USSR: mass usage in few years after this commie shit collapsed.

I would prefer to be human in a normal country, rather than slave cattle in a great one.

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(click to show/hide)

Why dont find something else as an example of prosperity? I find microwave oven incredibly stupid. Prefer to eat heathy, well prepared food. Don't use fast food and coke as an argument that life in west is better...

Quote
I would prefer to be human in a normal country, rather than slave cattle in a great one.

You know what really sucks? Colloquialisms. Normal would be life in the east, because there is more people living such life. And main difference between eastern and western philosophy of life is exactly what is shown on that picture. Darmaster also mentioned it few months ago in different topic. People who live in China, Russia and muslim countries prefer their country being great and strong, rather than their individual needs. Western people are the other way around.

There is more people living on the east. Also western scientists are fascinates by behavior of different insect species, most notably ants and termites. There is no individuality in their way of life and I expect that to happen to humans as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 11, 2014, 08:34:45 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 08:25:36 pm
Why dont find something else as an example of prosperity? I find microwave oven incredibly stupid. Prefer to eat heathy, well prepared food. Don't use fast food and coke as an argument that life in west is better...

Lets see... PORN!, ROCK!, WEED!, SEX! (FYI - there was no sex in USSR, tru story :!: :rolleyes: ), Freezer, Buble gum, Jeans, Radios/Music players, TV's, Books, freedom of choice (even if a poor one), lack of fear that one will be hauled to gulag for not sharing the true political ideology... Shall we go on?

P.S. I know the list started strong and got progressively weaker, CBA to care  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 11, 2014, 09:22:49 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 08:25:36 pm
Why dont find something else as an example of prosperity? I find microwave oven incredibly stupid. Prefer to eat heathy, well prepared food. Don't use fast food and coke as an argument that life in west is better...

You know what really sucks? Colloquialisms. Normal would be life in the east, because there is more people living such life. And main difference between eastern and western philosophy of life is exactly what is shown on that picture. Darmaster also mentioned it few months ago in different topic. People who live in China, Russia and muslim countries prefer their country being great and strong, rather than their individual needs. Western people are the other way around.

There is more people living on the east. Also western scientists are fascinates by behavior of different insect species, most notably ants and termites. There is no individuality in their way of life and I expect that to happen to humans as well.

I can never tell if Leshma is trolling or being serious
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on March 11, 2014, 09:58:41 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 11, 2014, 09:22:49 pm
I can never tell if Leshma is trolling or being serious

That is a little ironic coming from you though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 11, 2014, 10:06:41 pm
Leshma, you didn't get my point  :( Cold war didn't kill USSR, jeans & Cola did.

About "People who live in China, Russia and muslim countries prefer their country being great and strong": show Bad Korean ppl western way of life & there won't be any "eastern philosophy" on the next day. Only heavy propaganda keeps common folk from overthrowing their shitty government.
Peserstroyka & Glastnost' destroyed all Soviet ideology in no time after ppl saw the true nature of this "evil capitalistic west".
The only thing that bothers me is that ex-KGB agent Vladimir is trying to rebuild old system. God bless the Internet & Globalization for fighting him.

Here nice pics, first Mc Donald's in Russia, 1990:
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Darkest day in the history of cows xD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 10:24:39 pm
Listen, I prefer individuality just as much you do. I don't like the way people live in the east. But you're forgetting one thing. No matter how harsh are conditions they are living in, how little of value human life is those societies they still have far greater natality rate than westernized countries.

Only reason why western civilizations haven't died out yet is immigration from poor but massive counties of the east. West is technologically advanced and values freedom, east is providing babies who will utilize technology and freedom west provides. Russia has negative natality rate but other huge countries of the east have positive birthrate and their citizens don't live better than average Russian citizen.

You don't like the way people live in your country and that is fine. Therefore you went to Finland. But you can't expect every Russian to do the same or to live like Finns and other westerners live. That is impossible, because resources are limited and human progression depends on competition.

Above is the main reason why I dislike the approach EU has. They tell us that we can have the same good life like they have if we decide to change. What they are forgetting to tell us, is that only those most virtuous will get to that level. Not everyone will be able to live like that. And that is the problem. People who live in post communist countries are used to the fact that everyone gets the same share. While it seems normal for westerners to assume that not everyone gets the same prize, that is not how minds of people from formerly communist countries work. And thus disappointment happens.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 10:29:44 pm
Quote
People who live in post communist countries are used to the fact that everyone gets the same share.
What? :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 10:32:43 pm
What I meant is, people who actually lived under communism. Your parents, not the guys like you who are probably born after 1991. Life wasn't great but there weren't billionaires on one side and homeless on the other. At least not in the country I was born in.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 11, 2014, 10:37:58 pm
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By the way those Russians really know how to keep calm and stand in lanes. Even the one to get to the top of the Eiffel tower is shorter.

Quote from: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 10:32:43 pm
What I meant is, people who actually lived under communism. Your parents, not the guys like you who are probably born after 1991. Life wasn't great but there weren't billionaires on one side and homeless on the other. At least not in the country I was born in.

Russia today and in the past had more extreme poverty than western countries, foremost during the few months they applied something vaguely similar to textbook communism after the soviet revolution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 11, 2014, 10:38:05 pm
But... you know, 23 years passed...
And afaik inequality in post communist countries is far bigger than in western countries.
23 years is more than enough to get used to that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 11, 2014, 11:03:55 pm
Soviet Union - everyone getting the same share? Are you serious? People with political power lived like kings above the common rabble, who were all equally in the dirt, more or less. Also - ever heard of the blat system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blat_%28term%29)?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 11, 2014, 11:23:24 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 10:32:43 pm
What I meant is, people who actually lived under communism. Your parents, not the guys like you who are probably born after 1991. Life wasn't great but there weren't billionaires on one side and homeless on the other. At least not in the country I was born in.
Sorry to dissapoint you, but I remember full well how we had VERY limited choices of food and if not our relatives in US sometimes sending a package of clothes/boots (also friggin bubble gum!!!! :D ) - our great natality rate family of 5 with dissident past would have had to choose "warmer boots in winter or food on the table". And trust me - one learns how to sew and care for ones boots after choices like this become norm.

And there were billionares, they were called "comrade communist party cream-de-la-cream". Sorry to break this to you  :rolleyes:

Quote from: serr on March 11, 2014, 10:38:05 pm
But... you know, 23 years passed...
And afaik inequality in post communist countries is far bigger than in western countries.
23 years is more than enough to get used to that.
And give it another 23 - things may even out and be more like nordic countries, less like russia. I got no probs with that  :rolleyes: putler does however...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 11, 2014, 11:28:44 pm
Quote from: Daunt_Flockula on March 11, 2014, 09:58:41 pm
That is a little ironic coming from you though.
Only if you're mentally challenged.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 11, 2014, 11:50:07 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 10, 2014, 04:49:45 pm
What I really know is that 2nd high ranked officer deserted from ukrainian army in Crimea. Colonel, the commander of automobile battalion of naval forces. First he got kidnapped, afterwards he showed up completely drunk (also looked like beaten) and declared that he stands for Russian army from now and on.

This guy gave an interview today declining the fact that he deserted from the army and he's still all for Ukrainian army.

Video proof with language that you don't know
(click to show/hide)

But this deserter got replaced by a new one. 22 y.o. sailor from Ukrainian fleet (Maxim Knyazev, Russian ethnically, comes from Sevastopol, 2nd official deserter after admiral that I mentioned earlier) deserted from Ukrainian army to Crimean army to fight against "fascists". His photo from facebook. Really, I find it either a great trolling or even a greater stupidity of propaganda. Not-nаzis fighting against Nаzis, completely messed up.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 12, 2014, 12:18:57 am
Quote from: Butan on March 11, 2014, 05:20:50 pm
Also I am obviously only noting the "not eurocentric-ukraine" facts since most of the posters here are reporting the friendly ones. If the debate was balanced I wouldnt even feel the need to post. Dont confuse devil advocate and will to add fuel to a debate that needs going further away from the single-minded monopoly and staleness it could very well end in, if one side dominate the argument.
Forming your opinion when there is only one voice available is what I call brainwashing, and please dont ask me again "but what if only one side is saying truth/being good"  :lol:
There is a thin line between being the only one advocating an alternative stance as a devil's advocate and simply being wrong and I think you crossed it a few pages ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 12, 2014, 12:26:21 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 11, 2014, 11:50:07 pm
Video proof with language that you don't know
(click to show/hide)

I am le convinced by this foreign language proof : is it the guy that was kidnaped and looked beaten 2 days ago?


(click to show/hide)

Obviously wanted to say hi, I see no problem here.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 12, 2014, 12:49:23 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 11, 2014, 10:24:39 pm
...   People who live in post communist countries are used to the fact that everyone gets the same share. While it seems normal for westerners to assume that not everyone gets the same prize, that is not how minds of people from formerly communist countries work. And thus disappointment happens.

we had a saying "everyone is equal, but a few are more equal."
but east or west does not matter. you have to know the right people, that is what counts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 12, 2014, 09:49:36 am
Quote from: Mala on March 12, 2014, 12:49:23 am
we had a saying "everyone is equal, but a few are more equal."
but east or west does not matter. you have to know the right people, that is what counts.

That's not a saying, that's a quote from Animal Farm by George Orvel. In original it was: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 12, 2014, 10:01:29 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 12, 2014, 09:49:36 am
That's not a saying, that's a quote from Animal Farm by George Orvel. In original it was: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

I don't see the difference animals, humans...

(click to show/hide)
:mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 12, 2014, 10:24:22 am
Quote
But this deserter got replaced by a new one. 22 y.o. sailor from Ukrainian fleet (Maxim Knyazev,
Any proof? Didn't find any information that would confirm it.

Added: misunderstood what you said at the beginning :) No answer needed.

To make post more meaningful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLM7EWmoweU

Russian inside, but it should be more or less clear what they say.
Not sure though, probably it is fake - idiots like these shouldn't exist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 12, 2014, 10:26:31 am
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Gotta love Putin propaganda :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 12, 2014, 10:57:02 am
Quote from: Butan on March 12, 2014, 12:26:21 am
I am le convinced by this foreign language proof : is it the guy that was kidnaped and looked beaten 2 days ago?

Forgot to link the video, sorry. Quality isn't good here, but those signs of him being beaten probably appeared after he destroyed his ATV being drunk that day. That's why police is there, he simply smashed some Russian guy's car with his ATV on full speed  :lol:
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(click to show/hide)


Quote from: Butan on March 12, 2014, 12:26:21 am
Obviously wanted to say hi, I see no problem here.


If it was trolling - it was low-quality one.
O hai. Hello from Аdolf.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 12, 2014, 11:27:32 am
lol so funny to watch him trying so hard to simply stand straight and not move around :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 12, 2014, 11:48:54 am
topic has become boring ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 12, 2014, 11:53:36 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 11, 2014, 11:50:07 pm
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You got it all wrong!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 12, 2014, 11:55:32 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 12, 2014, 11:48:54 am
topic has become boring ((
Crimean referendum:
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& to keep the topic fun:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 12, 2014, 12:49:59 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on March 12, 2014, 10:26:31 am
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Gotta love Putin propaganda :D

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 12, 2014, 01:33:50 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 12, 2014, 12:49:59 pm
(click to show/hide)

I think they will eat him, it is strange that no shot operator 80kg of meat ....
his reports can be more exciting if he penetrates the fence of the white house and park on the lawn ^ ^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 12, 2014, 02:00:29 pm
"So, here's the russian checkpoint and we're a little worried because other journalists have been dissappearing here lately but hey let's go talk to these guys"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 12, 2014, 02:05:32 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 12, 2014, 02:00:29 pm
"So, here's the russian checkpoint and we're a little worried because other journalists have been dissappearing here lately but hey let's go talk to these guys"

Simon Yolostrovsky
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 09:59:50 am
If you are a sheep, don't watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ASHvWEXbc#t=756

You can also read this book : Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on March 13, 2014, 11:06:06 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 09:59:50 am
If you are a sheep, don't watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ASHvWEXbc#t=756

You can also read this book : Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

 8-)
You must be joking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 13, 2014, 11:27:40 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 09:59:50 am
If you are a sheep, don't watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ASHvWEXbc#t=756

You can also read this book : Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

 8-)
Putin's propaganda!! dat man on video have clearly marked Russian accent!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 13, 2014, 12:10:09 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 09:59:50 am
If you are a sheep, don't watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ASHvWEXbc#t=756

You can also read this book : Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

 8-)
Didn't you ban yourself from this topic like yesterday?  :rolleyes:
If I'd want to hear some RT-bullshit, I could just turn my TV on. News block in Russia consists of 40% Ukraine, 20% Putin, 20% Putin talking about Ukraine, 15% about paralympics & 5% about some plane crashed into an ocean.


Find Putin on main Russian tv channel's site:
(click to show/hide)

If you think this was photoshop:
http://www.1tv.ru/news/polit/
counted 15 putins.
Newest one is about "Vladimir Putin's rating reached its maximum in last three years"(Рейтинг Владимира Путина достиг максимального значения за три года) Dunno why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 13, 2014, 12:40:48 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 09:59:50 am
If you are a sheep, don't watch BELIEVE this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ASHvWEXbc#t=756

You can also read this book : Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

 8-)
Fixed that for you, you can send loomz to me as a thanks :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 01:12:06 pm
John Perkins, Edward Snowden..all russian agents in the service of Putin.  :lol:
 I'd like to live in your fantasy world, always on the good side of the guns.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 13, 2014, 01:19:11 pm
It is ever fun to be called a sheeple by someone with non-existent critical thinking skills.

As i see it, it is an attempt at compensating - they can't tell apart fact from fiction in the information they receive, thus they deliberately choose to regard everything "mainstream" as lies and everything "alternative" as the real truth, that "the masses are too blind to see". It's like being an emo, in a sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 01:25:18 pm
What Snowden or Perkins says are mainstream. I have no problem with mainstream medias when they say the truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 13, 2014, 01:31:42 pm
And how do you distinguish truth from lie?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 01:59:04 pm
Especially when people have no arguments and only sarcasms/insults/censorship.
But, ok, it's not easy. You have to spend hours to compare various informations from both sides.

But with US government it's easier, because they lies quite always.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prinz_Karl on March 13, 2014, 02:35:36 pm
Can someone summarize/conclude the last 100 pages or something who has followed it? I really don't want to read through it all... what's the topic right now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sparvico on March 13, 2014, 02:39:09 pm
Quote from: Prinz_Karl on March 13, 2014, 02:35:36 pm
Can someone summarize/conclude the last 100 pages or something who has followed it? I really don't want to read through it all... what's the topic right now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 13, 2014, 02:55:32 pm
Quote from: Prinz_Karl on March 13, 2014, 02:35:36 pm
Can someone summarize/conclude the last 100 pages or something who has followed it? I really don't want to read through it all... what's the topic right now?
There are brainwashed westernese, who condemn russian invasion and condemn russia (me among them).
There are brainwashed russians, who call others sheep and then are surprised when this turns around at them (e.g. Tovi).
There are hipsters like Butan, who have no idea what they blabber about, but thing that west is rotten, thus - russia would probably be better for Crimea than bundle-o-sticks economically occupied Ukraine.
There are ironic ones, like Vovka.

And there are ostriges-head-in-sand like ... well... better take a link at mirror:
https://www.google.lt/search?q=ostrige+head+in+sand&client=firefox-a&hs=HRS&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=rLghU8CFFYeN4gSqrYGYBA&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1375&bih=772
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 13, 2014, 03:00:11 pm
Quote from: Prinz_Karl on March 13, 2014, 02:35:36 pm
Can someone summarize/conclude the last 100 pages or something who has followed it? I really don't want to read through it all... what's the topic right now?

well you see it started off well, then took a nose dive when some russians came in and bantered with the westerners about who is right and wrong.  Then after about page 30 or so this Kuuji guy came in and just insulted every russian he could find until they responded back creating another 50 pages or so.  After that mess this fucking Tovi guy, and Butan have been non stop shit posting for the last 30 pages or so, with a mix of Xant and a dash of Oberyn sprinkled in to the entire pile of waste that is this thread. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 13, 2014, 03:04:32 pm
tl;dr
Most successful tread I ever created  8-)
100+ pages & there are referendum, elections, EU-wannabe,sanctions & WW3 incoming  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 13, 2014, 03:05:26 pm
(click to show/hide)


So far the cold news are (correct me if I'm wrong):


- Maidan revolt is a success, previous pro-Russia president has been evicted and new pro-EU government has formed

- political situation in Kiev (Ukraine capital) and west-central provinces is stable, people are mostly happy to wait for the early presidential election of the 25 may of this year, majority-opposition is already forming, with candidates from both maidan enthusiast and neutral (and possibly ex-president Yanukovitch), polls have already been made and you can see one here from wikipedia:
(click to show/hide)

- political situation in south-east provinces is rebellious, major cities were the target of protests and attempts/successful storming of administrative buildings/taking control of regional centers was made, calls for closer ties or even incorporation into Russia were made, but police crackdown + Russia not sending army + low organisation + no central nerve point to gather around = no major results toward a counter-maidan scenario.

- political situation in Crimea province is military occupied by pro-Russia/Russia forces.

- more troops from both side (Ukrainian 200 000 army/reserve + 60 000 national guards mobilized+ 100 000 "others" (police, border guard, etc...) - all the desertion (unknown number), against, 20 000+ "Crimean" forces + Russia 150 000 rapid deployment force at Ukraine border + continuous reinforcements (unknown)) are stationned and entrenching themselves and preparing for anything but still no casualties to report, sieging of the loyal Ukrainian soldiers inside Crimea territory continue: barracks are surrounded, roads are patrolled and checkpoints are everywhere, ports and airports are blockaded.



- world diplomacy shifted from threat of war, to threat of economical sanctions, to threats of not-recognizing one another state (be it either Kiev government or Crimea government) : despite the very large mobilization of troops from Ukraine and Russia and the tension that comes with it, noone is openly pushing for a escalation of violence.

- Ukraine has 3 major arguments against Russia : intrusion of military forces in sovereign state, coup against new Kiev government in Crimea and formation of illegal Crimean government, illegal referendum about joining Russia

- Russia has 3 majors arguments against Ukraine : coup against previous Kiev government and formation of illegal government, protecting the russian people inside Ukraine territory, the military force inside Crimea are only Crimea self-defense force


- Ukraine new prime minister is rallying USA/EU support, Crimea new government is organizing legal actions to ask for Russia support and become a russian region: Ukraine and most of the world powers have claimed they would not go to war over Crimea, and Russia seems happy to pay the diplomatic price for this aggressive expansion.



The referendum organised by the Crimean local government of Sevastopol is to be held the 16 march of this year, with 2 choices : join Russia or stay with Ukraine but with the 1992 constitution which gives them more autonomy. Everyone is waiting for the result and nothing much is happening except empty diplomatic announcements here and there in the last days.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 13, 2014, 03:33:27 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 01:59:04 pm
Especially when people have no arguments and only sarcasms/insults/censorship.
But, ok, it's not easy. You have to spend hours to compare various informations from both sides.

But with US government it's easier, because they lies quite always.

Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 13, 2014, 03:40:53 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 13, 2014, 04:06:50 pm
Quote from: WarLord on March 13, 2014, 04:04:24 pm
"The head is for thinking and not just for carrying your brain"

Loved how he fucked off after he said he was an officer of the soviet army  :mrgreen:  cannot compete
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 04:32:33 pm
I'm not Russian, I'm a democrat. So I don't like the na-zi's coup in Ukraine, and I'll respect the Crimean choice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 13, 2014, 04:35:11 pm
Trollvi pls, u unban yourself m8?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 04:41:15 pm
The advantage to ban himself is the possibility to unban himself (old chinese proverb).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 13, 2014, 04:41:58 pm
.-.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 13, 2014, 05:05:18 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 04:41:15 pm
The advantage to ban himself is the possibility to unban himself (old chinese proverb).

Get the fuck out of here (Ben Affleck)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 13, 2014, 05:08:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 13, 2014, 04:41:15 pm
The advantage to ban himself is the possibility to unban himself (old chinese proverb).
"The only thing a person can truly keep is his word"  :rolleyes:
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.

Meanwhile in Russia:
Officials suspected Novosibirsk cinemas, who were broadcasting movie "The Wolf of Wall Street", in promotion of drugs. 800k-1kk rubles  of fines  :lol:

Russian Leo DiCaprio:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 14, 2014, 09:35:23 am
Some news: Son of former Minister of Defence Anatoly Gritsenko with his 2 friends got kidnapped this night in Crimea by pro-russian forces. He only managed to tell that their car was being chased by some crimeans. At the moment his last GPS record was in the captured building of pro-russian forces, though they refuse the fact that anyone is there.

Just my opinion: I recalled a post today that I made before Russia invading Ukraine. I described some sort of stereotypic eastern Ukrainians (including my city which is considered politically to be south-eastern while it's south-western) as low-educated people and sometimes even utterly stupid. I think it's just about their culture, the go to their working places, they come back in the evening, watch TV and read newspapers. They don't have any aims in their lives besides abstract "to live better" but they never know how to make it. Unlike western Ukrainians who know that they want this, this and this even if it's not right. This eastern marginal kind of logic gets abused by Russian mass-media (they have the same "problem", funny thing that they claim Americans to be stupid but their current young generation is just mostly, I'm sorry, retarded - play any videogame with Russians and you'll understand). When I hear opinions such as "We will live better being a part of Russia" I just get extremely upset. Economically Russia is the same shit for people as current Ukraine (even though Russia is very rich people live like in the 3rd world country outside Moscow and Petersburg) but they have a lot of problems that will be new for Ukrainians. Like huge problems with islamic immigrants: due to a huge corruption - they can commit any crimes without any fear of getting into jail because you can always just give money to policeman and go home no matter what you did. These people have nothing to do with Islam besides that they connect themselves to it, they just violate the vast majority of its demands. Or censorship: I believe that Russia is the only country in the Europe that blocks websites of political opposition (yes, they can block any website that they want, just like in China). They ofc find a reason and just block it.

People in Crimea don't understand that their current protests and referendum are the last in their history. Because referendums don't happen in Russia and protests finish fast ending with protesters beaten up by police.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 14, 2014, 10:16:15 am
In other news...

The president of the FC Bayern München was trialled for tax avoiding of 27.2 million Euros. He has been convicted to 3 years and 6 months of prison.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(click to show/hide)

He has still the chance of revision by a higher instance which he will take. Still, personally I expected him to get just a slap and a fine. Gives me back a little bit of believe in the justice system of my country.

I think this fits rather well into "Russia is corrupt" showing that it doesn't have to be that way. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 14, 2014, 10:24:45 am
Quote
current young generation is just mostly, I'm sorry, retarded - play any videogame with Russians and you'll understand)

Druzhinas are not stupid at all. That's racism...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 10:41:27 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 14, 2014, 09:35:23 am
(click to show/hide)
Yeah yeah foolish to judge a country based on a small group of its representatives.
video about common representative of young generation in Ukrain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWd1CjXfAZk  :P


Quote from: Tovi on March 14, 2014, 10:24:45 am
Druzhinas are not stupid at all. That's racism...
I do not understand how dave has not banned yet on this forum for YMCA
(click to show/hide)
and incitement of ethnic hatred  :(

Quote from: Molly on March 14, 2014, 10:16:15 am
I think this fits rather well into "Russia is corrupt" showing that it doesn't have to be that way. :)
He is not Russian so u will not get +++ here  for dat news :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 14, 2014, 11:48:03 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 10:41:27 am
video about common representative of young generation in Ukrain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWd1CjXfAZk  :P
Typical Rus\Ukr Dota player  8-)

Quote from: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 10:41:27 am
He is not Russian so u will not get +++ here  for dat news :P
At least he got caught  :wink:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(ex-minister of defence, still works for the government)

Famous Russian Voting system in action:
Voters in Crimea are gathering from all Mother Russia's lands  :lol:

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 14, 2014, 09:35:23 am
Or censorship: I believe that Russia is the only country in the Europe that blocks websites of political opposition (yes, they can block any website that they want, just like in China). They ofc find a reason and just block it.
Navalny's lj blog & some opposition sites got blocked yesterday.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 14, 2014, 11:57:55 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 10:41:27 am
Yeah yeah foolish to judge a country based on a small group of its representatives.
video about common representative of young generation in Ukrain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWd1CjXfAZk  :P

He is ethnic Russian and speaks Russian. Anyway I'm Russian myself and it's not any kind of racism or nаzism, it's just my pain to accept this. You can't solve the problem if you don't see it.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on March 14, 2014, 12:16:51 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 12:38:53 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 14, 2014, 11:57:55 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 14, 2014, 12:55:23 pm

Oh putin save us the ukranian thug nazees weel keel us oh noes.

Yet here the Russians are beating Ukrainian protesters from what I can see. Who's the one that needs to be saved from who exactly? Ukrainians are open to both sides, Russians only care about them selves.

P.S give back Crimea to the real Crimean people. If the Jews got Israel back these tatars should get their country back especially after what Stalin did to them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 14, 2014, 01:13:26 pm
this shit makes my heart bleed man.  fucks sake.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 14, 2014, 01:21:07 pm
Basnak, you got it all wrong. Russian media already said that ukrainians attacked pro-russian protesters there.
By their versions there were peaceful russian protesters who got attacked by right-wing radicals with clubs and traumatic weapons.

By the way, at least one man was killed there, stabbed in the stomach. And yes, he was ukrainian who was protesting against russian actions in Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 01:23:58 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on March 14, 2014, 12:55:23 pm

Oh putin save us the ukranian thug nazees weel keel us oh noes.

Yet here the Russians are beating Ukrainian protesters from what I can see. Who's the one that needs to be saved from who exactly? Ukrainians are open to both sides, Russians only care about them selves.

P.S give back Crimea to the real Crimean people. If the Jews got Israel back these tatars should get their country back especially after what Stalin did to them.
Its a peacefull demonstration pro-russian ppls
but the ua government sent bydlo from Naci
  in the video you can see how pro-russian  trying to save Ukrainians from their own countrymen, who are trying to compromising peaceful demonstration

BTW return America to the native americans!@
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 01:26:22 pm
Quote from: serr on March 14, 2014, 01:21:07 pm
Basnak, you got it all wrong. Russian media already said that ukrainians attacked pro-russian protesters there.
By their versions there were peaceful russian protesters who got attacked by right-wing radicals with clubs and traumatic weapons.

By the way, at least one man was killed there, stabbed in the stomach. And yes, he was ukrainian who was protesting against russian actions in Crimea.
do not protest! obey! and bend over!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 14, 2014, 01:43:46 pm
how they are kneeling down to the guy with the huge rock...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 14, 2014, 02:38:57 pm
Before the incident (face-off):




During incident (surrounded+left to die in the crowd):




Useless post-berkut police + overwhelmed pro-maidan + anti-maidan envelopment tactic = injured/dead  :|

Donestk new anti-maidan nerve point?




Controversial bonus:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 14, 2014, 03:36:07 pm
russian philosophie professor michail ryklin on the kurrent crises,  unfortunately in german:

http://www.zeit.de/2014/11/interview-michail-ryklin-putins-dilemma?fb_action_ids=10201668095919274&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=facebook.zonarticle.klick.article.recommend
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 14, 2014, 03:52:48 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 14, 2014, 11:57:55 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 14, 2014, 03:59:00 pm
Quote from: WarLord on March 14, 2014, 03:48:52 pm
So, the small group that is surrounded and attacked: Are these the Pro-Ukranian or Pro-Russian protesters now?

Any Russian speaker who really can tell? Because there are almost no flags at that scene so I can't spot who's who.

I believe they were pro-Ukranian; Donetsk is a growing pro-russian center so its kinda like if pro-russian had tried to come protest on maidan place : was doomed to spiral out of control.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 14, 2014, 04:55:15 pm
Young Ukrainians (and even Russians) should think twice before dying for Crimea. Let's have elections and don't let the violence take power.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 14, 2014, 05:03:15 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 14, 2014, 04:55:15 pm
Young Ukrainians (and even Russians) should think twice before dying for Crimea. Let's have elections and don't let the violence take power.
lol they dying not for Crimea but for money and adrenaline  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 14, 2014, 07:02:42 pm
Guess there will be no sanctions for Russia after all. Big international corporations don't like the idea. German industry will be hit hardest, Merkel needs to rethink priorities.

There is "only" 140 million consumers in Russia. This is a clear sign to China that they can do anything they want, only way to stop them is full scale WW3.

This is just a proof of what I was talking about. Western world sux dick without bigass eastern countries. They can't go in war with them, not anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 14, 2014, 07:14:49 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on March 14, 2014, 12:55:23 pm
Human garbage... I can't even start to imagine the fear they must have felt with that crowd obviously out for blood.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 14, 2014, 07:20:13 pm
Honestly surprised the death count is so low: worst part = like almost all fighting, its pointless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 14, 2014, 07:25:54 pm
Can We Afford Ukraine? (http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/march/09/can-we-afford-ukraine.aspx)
written by ron paul

Quote
Officially, US debt stands at more than $17 trillion. In reality, it is many times more. The cost of the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq may be more than six trillion dollars. President Obama’s illegal invasion of Libya cost at least a billion dollars and left that country devastated. The costs of US regime change efforts in Syria are likely thus far enormous, both in dollars and lives. That’s still a secret.

So who in his right mind would think it is a good time to start a war with Russia over Ukraine? And worse, who would commit the United States to bail out a Ukraine that will need at least $35 billion to survive the year?

Who? The president and Congress, backed by the neocons and the so-called humanitarian interventionists!

The House voted overwhelmingly last week to provide $1 billion in loan guarantees to Ukraine. That is just the beginning, you can be sure. But let’s be clear: this is not money for the population of that impoverished country. The Administration is sending a billion dollars from US taxpayers to wealthy international bankers who hold Ukrainian debt. It is an international bank bailout, not aid to Ukrainians. And despite the escalating anti-Russia rhetoric, ironically some of that money will likely go to Russia for Ukraine’s two billion dollar unpaid gas bill!

So what happened in Ukraine? The US government and media claims that the US must save Ukrainian democracy from an invading Russian army that is threatening the country’s sovereignty. But in reality the crisis was instigated in part by US meddling. Remember the intercepted telephone call in which two senior Obama Administration officials discussed plans to replace the elected government in Ukraine with US puppets? That is exactly what happened. Is that not a violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty? Is that what democracy is all about?
 
The Obama Administration’s policy toward Ukraine is hypocritical. The overthrow of the government in Kiev by violent street protests was called a triumph of democracy, but when the elected parliament in autonomous Crimea voted last week to hold a referendum to decide its future, President Obama condemned it as a violation of international law. What about the principle of self-determination, which is also enshrined in international law?
 
I have long thought that a referendum to reorganize Ukraine into a looser confederation of regions might help reduce tensions. I still believe this could help, but it seems the US government is not so enthusiastic about democracy when there is a chance for an outcome it opposes.

I strongly believe that Crimeans have every right to transfer sovereignty over their peninsula to Russia if they wish. The only question that remains is whether there will there be an honest election, and I don’t see any reason there can’t be.

The US government tells the rest of the world, “We want you to be good democrats and have elections,” but if they don’t elect the right people then we complain about it and throw them out, like we did in Egypt. In Crimea they want to have an election to determine their future. President Obama condemned those plans for a vote by saying, “We are well beyond the days when borders can be redrawn over the heads of democratic leaders.” Does he not remember that the authorities in Kiev were installed just weeks ago after a US-backed coup against the Ukrainian constitution?

Congress next week will likely vote for sanctions against Russia. Though many mistakenly believe that sanctions are a relatively harmless way of forcing foreign countries to do what we say, we should be clear: sanctions are an act of war.
 
Cooler heads in the United States are not currently prevailing. There is a danger of an unimaginable conflict between the US and Russia. We must demand a shift away from a war footing, away from incendiary rhetoric. We are broke and cannot afford to “buy” Ukraine. We certainly cannot afford another war, especially with Russia!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: djavo on March 14, 2014, 08:04:58 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 14, 2014, 07:02:42 pm
Guess there will be no sanctions for Russia after all. Big international corporations don't like the idea. German industry will be hit hardest, Merkel needs to rethink priorities.

There is "only" 140 million consumers in Russia. This is a clear sign to China that they can do anything they want, only way to stop them is full scale WW3.

This is just a proof of what I was talking about. Western world sux dick without bigass eastern countries. They can't go in war with them, not anymore.

What do you have against China? They are the only ones that can save you from KFC and McDonalds. All hail mighty Emperor Ming!

Regarding Russia vs West, it's obvious no one wants to provoke Brown Bear and like many times over the past they will just turn their heads and look away.
This is Putin's sandbox and Obama isn't allowed to play there. EU is also useless, army of bureaucrats doing absolutely nothing.

Let the WWIII commence! I'm sure my stone throwing skills will be useful when nukes blast everything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 14, 2014, 08:50:32 pm
US just can't win against Russia. Not without very heavy losses or a nuclear war. That's why they withdrawed in Syria.
Russia have better AA missile system and multi-head tactic against aircraft-carrier. And no more US troops in Europe.

Westerners have more to loose if Russia decide to seize all their societies in Russia, or cut the gaz to Europe. So the dogs will get back in the kennel and Obama will celebrate democratic elections in Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on March 14, 2014, 10:55:55 pm
After watching all these videos on a previous page I am still sure we don't need the special forces to enforcing the peace on the streets.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 15, 2014, 02:11:46 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 14, 2014, 08:50:32 pm
US just can't win against Russia. Not without very heavy losses or a nuclear war. That's why they withdrawed in Syria.
Russia have better AA missile system and multi-head tactic against aircraft-carrier. And no more troops in Europe.

Westerners have more to loose if Russia decide to seize all their societies in Russia, or cut the gaz to Europe. So the dogs will get back in the kennel and Obama will celebrate democratic elections in Crimea.
US would roll over Russia if it came to a war. Russian military is horribly trained, not motivated and has shit equipment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on March 15, 2014, 02:47:32 am
The Discuss (featuring Tovi & Xant). Trailer:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 15, 2014, 09:06:33 am
Anyway, Afghans are better than both.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 09:57:26 am
Quote from: Yarl on March 14, 2014, 03:52:48 pm
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Quote from: Tovi on March 14, 2014, 04:55:15 pm
Young Ukrainians (and even Russians) should think twice before dying for Crimea. Let's have elections and don't let the violence take power.

What elections are you speaking about? And Russian troops are already beyond Crimea in Kherson region and most likely will not stop.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 15, 2014, 10:21:25 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 09:57:26 am
What elections are you speaking about? And Russian troops are already beyond Crimea in Kherson region and most likely will not stop.
The most honest & clearest ones!
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more agitation pics:
http://news.bigmir.net/ukraine/800265--Fashizm-ne-projdet---agitacija-za-referendum-v-Krymu#a/1f/988935ec9bf2613bc47d8a5157cb71fa.jpg
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 15, 2014, 10:29:02 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 15, 2014, 09:06:33 am
Anyway, Afghans are better than both.  :mrgreen:
At dying, yeah.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on March 15, 2014, 11:30:38 am
A short history of Ukraine, from the great state to long struggle for independence

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 15, 2014, 12:30:14 pm


Quote from: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 09:57:26 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 12:38:35 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 15, 2014, 12:30:14 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 15, 2014, 12:46:11 pm
Are we back to gibberish now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 15, 2014, 01:25:34 pm
Moscow
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Quote from: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 12:38:35 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 15, 2014, 01:31:50 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2014, 12:46:11 pm
Are we back to gibberish now?

All I read from this is "elektrozavodsk stary sobor kamenka"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 01:33:52 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 15, 2014, 01:25:34 pm
Moscow
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on March 15, 2014, 01:51:37 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 15, 2014, 01:52:19 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Context: 1st image is from Donetsk right now.
2nd image is from riots in Rīga, LV @ 13.01.2009. - an event that started as a peaceful rally, but then turned into some rioting - as many suspect, provoked by some as of yet unknown forces. Basically, a bunch of drunk, mainly russian-speaking youths, rioted throughout the old city, looting a liquor store, demolishing a few cars and throwing bricks at the parliament.
The guy in the picture, a so far unknown rioter, labelled Alosha, was kind of a popular meme in LV internet scene for a while after this, due to how retarded he looks. I looked up the blog, where the picture was originally published, one of the commenters said he had stood next to the guy and that woman during the peaceful part of the rally and overheard them talking in russian, the guy asking the woman to translate what was being said, and how the entire thing made him think that the guy wasn't from LV.

Professional pro-Rus rioter, much?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 15, 2014, 02:42:10 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 01:33:52 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on March 15, 2014, 02:47:03 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 15, 2014, 01:52:19 pm
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Context: 1st image is from Donetsk right now.
2nd image is from riots in Rīga, LV @ 13.01.2009. - an event that started as a peaceful rally, but then turned into some rioting - as many suspect, provoked by some as of yet unknown forces. Basically, a bunch of drunk, mainly russian-speaking youths, rioted throughout the old city, looting a liquor store, demolishing a few cars and throwing bricks at the parliament.
The guy in the picture, a so far unknown rioter, labelled Alosha, was kind of a popular meme in LV internet scene for a while after this, due to how retarded he looks. I looked up the blog, where the picture was originally published, one of the commenters said he had stood next to the guy and that woman during the peaceful part of the rally and overheard them talking in russian, the guy asking the woman to translate what was being said, and how the entire thing made him think that the guy wasn't from LV.

Professional pro-Rus rioter, much?

It is sad that it has become almost impossible to start a protest and conclude it the way you projected it all along nowadays. Provocation is always there and it does not come only from the opposing side. Some protesters themselves or interest groups tied to them want the events to go hardcore, believing that it is the only way to go. Enforcers, the other side, would like the events to go hardcore as well, so that they can legitimately impose brute force. It is a stick covered with shit on both ends.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 08:10:55 pm
Lel'd at the title of the video: Selfdefence of Crimea has won against Ukrainian granny. On a serious note: granny tried to express her opinion about Crimea being Ukrainian - she instantly gets called "provoker" and gets punished by friendly pro-russian anti-nаzi. Videos like that simply show what kind of people they are.



And one more video from today. This video is about some patriotic Russian movement called "the plot of the time" (I don't get this name but who cares). Another RUSSIA-RUSSIA-RUSSIA fat idiot without respect to old people (even those who are on his side), I can't translate that, that's the lack of respect and brains altogether. This happened today in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 16, 2014, 09:27:28 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 15, 2014, 08:10:55 pm
The only thing I don't understand is why do this retards use Bandera colours(red\black)?  :rolleyes:
Russia 2014:
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Sturmabteilung(Brownshirts) 1921-1934
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Although, we had pro-Ukrainian march("March of Peace") yesterday too:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 10:54:46 am
But what mean "peace" exactly ? To let Crimea join Russia without any reaction ? That is peace...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 11:04:13 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 10:54:46 am
But what mean "peace" exactly ? To let Crimea join Russia without any reaction ? That is peace...

No, they were for letting Crimea stay in Ukraine. Also I've seen a lot of anti-Putin mottos. Also, you promised to ban yourself from this thread, be a man and leave it. Your statements are so stupid that they can't even be considered as trolling.

As I've predicted, there will be 146% votes for joining Russia :D This referendum is an utter profanation, they add people to the voting lists just using regular pens (you're not in the list? Ah, no problem, you can vote now if you came here at least), they let people with Russian passports vote (that's just retarded, they justify it by the fact that it's going to be Russia soon anyway). So according to the fact that a certain amount of Crimean people have a Russian passport illegally that means that people can vote even twice. Meanwhile those who support Ukraine are boycotting the referendum (including Ukrainian military troops), so I guess this referendum will be 99.8% for joining Russia with more than 100% of votes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 16, 2014, 11:25:40 am
There are two choices in referendum:
1. Crimea joins Russia
2. Crimea becomes independent

Since independent Crimea can join Russia afterwards it is basically the same, there is no choice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 12:37:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 11:04:13 am
No, they were for letting Crimea stay in Ukraine. Also I've seen a lot of anti-Putin mottos. Also, you promised to ban yourself from this thread, be a man and leave it. Your statements are so stupid that they can't even be considered as trolling.

As I've predicted, there will be 146% votes for joining Russia :D This referendum is an utter profanation, they add people to the voting lists just using regular pens (you're not in the list? Ah, no problem, you can vote now if you came here at least), they let people with Russian passports vote (that's just retarded, they justify it by the fact that it's going to be Russia soon anyway). So according to the fact that a certain amount of Crimean people have a Russian passport illegally that means that people can vote even twice. Meanwhile those who support Ukraine are boycotting the referendum (including Ukrainian military troops), so I guess this referendum will be 99.8% for joining Russia with more than 100% of votes.

I see. You mean Putin is trolling ukrainians... you are surrounded by trolls.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 16, 2014, 12:38:17 pm
Quote from: Segd on March 16, 2014, 09:27:28 am
[...]
Although, we had pro-Ukrainian march("March of Peace") yesterday too:
(click to show/hide)
Funny... when those pro-Russia fellows do marches, you never see the Ukrainian flag mixed into the picture. Here you can see both flags coexisting which should be the natural way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 16, 2014, 01:09:35 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 16, 2014, 01:20:16 pm
Quote from: serr on March 16, 2014, 11:25:40 am
There are two choices in referendum:
1. Crimea joins Russia
2. Crimea becomes independent

Since independent Crimea can join Russia afterwards it is basically the same, there is no choice.

Wrong.

1. Crimea joins Russia
2. Crimea becomes an autonomous region of Ukraine


Most countries have regions with special history who have been granted more "freedom" to manage their own territory, and those regions are still are a part of the nation.
But in substance, there is no "No" vote, that is true. Some people would have voted to "stay a normal region of Ukraine" and it is not possible.



Quote from: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 11:04:13 am
As I've predicted, there will be 146% votes for joining Russia :D This referendum is an utter profanation, they add people to the voting lists just using regular pens (you're not in the list? Ah, no problem, you can vote now if you came here at least), they let people with Russian passports vote (that's just retarded, they justify it by the fact that it's going to be Russia soon anyway). So according to the fact that a certain amount of Crimean people have a Russian passport illegally that means that people can vote even twice. Meanwhile those who support Ukraine are boycotting the referendum (including Ukrainian military troops), so I guess this referendum will be 99.8% for joining Russia with more than 100% of votes.

Wait the end of the referendum before saying random things without links.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 16, 2014, 01:33:09 pm
Quote
Wrong.

1. Crimea joins Russia
2. Crimea becomes an autonomous region of Ukraine


Most countries have regions with special history who have been granted more "freedom" to manage their own territory, and those regions are still are a part of the nation.
But in substance, there is no "No" vote, that is true. Some people would have voted to "stay a normal region of Ukraine" and it is not possible.

Not entirely true. It is autonomous even now.
By second point Crimea would get right to make their own foreign policy with all consequences.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 16, 2014, 01:55:09 pm
Do you mean the constitution of 1992 allowed Crimea to join any country unilaterally? I didnt read the whole text so I dont know but it sounds strange if its true.

from wikipedia: (full text (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Crimea))
Quote
In February 1992 the Crimean parliament transformed Crimea into "Republic of Crimea" and the Ukrainian government offered them more self-government.[1] On 5 May 1992 parliament declared Crimea independent[1] (which was yet to be approved by a referendum to be held 2 August 1992[4]) and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day.[4] On 6 May 1992 the same parliament inserted a new sentence into this constitution that declared that Crimea was part of Ukraine.[4] On 13 May 1992 the Verkhovna Rada (the Ukrainian parliament) annulled Crimea's independence declaration and gave its Crimean counterpart one week to do the same.[4] In June 1992 the parties reached a compromise and Crimea was given the status of "Autonomous Republic".[1]


Bold part are most interesting, epic changes of the text on a day-to-day basis  :P  thus the constitutions are written!
Anyway, I'm not sure that if the "autonomy" is granted to Crimea they will totally respect that old text to the letter, so its quite possible they join (be it symbolically, in trade-political union; or territorially by transfering power) in the future, using other legal actions, but I would refrain from using shortcuts that liberally. A whole country is in the balance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 16, 2014, 01:58:04 pm
What about the censorship in Russia, and the alleged storming of hotels full of reporters? Some links:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/15/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/
http://time.com/26320/gunmen-storm-crimea-hotel-full-of-reporters-on-eve-of-referendum/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 16, 2014, 02:04:26 pm
Quote
Do you mean the constitution of 1992 allowed Crimea to join any country unilaterally?

Second point includes returning to constitution of 1992 year, as you can see there were several changes then and there is no explanations which of them would be reverted, so it can be interpreted in different ways. However with current crimean rulers I don't doubt it would be interpreted in the most profitable for Russia way.

Added: Well, probably I misinterpret it, there was delineated constitution. However what was written there mean that Crimea is literally independent state that is declaratively inside Ukraine. However even if this point would win - most likely Crimea would immedialely declare its independence since they don'r recognize current ukrainian rulers. Sounds a bit silly but these guys showed even bigger neglecting to laws during last 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 16, 2014, 02:23:33 pm
Wait, silly me, what independence I'm talking about...
Just read declaration of referendum:

Parliament of Crimea declares:
1. Join Russia
2. Make referendum about joining Russia :D

There are 9 more points in that declaration, but these two are main.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 02:29:04 pm
Ukrainian parliament declares :
- join EU
- join NATO
- join NWO
No elections
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 16, 2014, 03:29:36 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 02:29:04 pm
- join NWO

Seriously.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 16, 2014, 04:01:38 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2014, 12:38:17 pm
Funny... when those pro-Russia fellows do marches, you never see the Ukrainian flag mixed into the picture. Here you can see both flags coexisting which should be the natural way.
Well, it's pretty easy to determine the political views of ppl by pics:
If it is on Ukrainian territory & you see Russian flags, then this is pro-Russian & pro-Putin.
If it is on Russian territory & you see Ukrainian flags, then this is pro-Ukrainian & anti-Putin.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 16, 2014, 04:19:47 pm
And when you have both flags coming too close to each other, you have either violence (in case of counter-demonstration) or peace (in case of white march).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 16, 2014, 04:41:24 pm
All this talk of "yeah but Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Mali, Kosovo, Pakistan etc." is really ridiculous. If you want to go down that road, what about mentioning just about every single Latin American, Asian or African country, that at some point was politically influenced by some western power during the 20th and 19th century ? Because yes, pretty much all of them were.

Hypocrisy is not a crime in politics, or in anything else for that matter. It's not because you did bad things that to stand and watch while others do bad things is the morally superior course of action. Jeez.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 04:47:23 pm
Justifying crimes of Russia against Ukraine by crimes of USA against other countries just shows the mental retardation of the one who tries it. The world is not a card game of 2 players where you can exchange better or worse cards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 16, 2014, 04:49:19 pm
I think we're past that point. Seems like "west" won't do anything to stop Russia. No need to justify anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 06:52:31 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on March 16, 2014, 03:29:36 pm
Seriously.

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Call this "globalisation" or "US empire", but they call themselves "new world order", whatever it means in their mind. Israel is just a part of this empire, as France, Japan etc.
That's why a referendum is cool for Kosovo or Mayotte, but not in Crimea. You can split Yugoslavia or USSR, but not pro-US Ukraine. It's a "one way" world order.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 07:07:32 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 06:52:31 pm
Call this "globalisation" or "US empire", but they call themselves "new world order", whatever it means in their mind. Israel is just a part of this empire, as France, Japan etc.
That's why a referendum is cool for Kosovo or Mayotte, but not in Crimea. You can split Yugoslavia or USSR, but not pro-US Ukraine. It's a "one way" world order.

It's not splitting up, it's annexation.  Completely different things. You can call it pro-US, pro-anything, I'm ready to live like those countries because they're not even close to something like current Ukraine or Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 16, 2014, 07:15:41 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 06:52:31 pm
Call this "globalisation" or "US empire", but they call themselves "new world order", whatever it means in their mind. Israel is just a part of this empire, as France, Japan etc.
That's why a referendum is cool for Kosovo or Mayotte, but not in Crimea. You can split Yugoslavia or USSR, but not pro-US Ukraine. It's a "one way" world order.
You can spew your conspiracy bullshit as much as you want...

It won't change the fact that the lesser evil is still better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 16, 2014, 07:43:40 pm
Quote from: serr on March 16, 2014, 11:25:40 am
There are two choices in referendum:
1. Crimea joins Russia
2. Crimea becomes independent

Since independent Crimea can join Russia afterwards it is basically the same, there is no choice.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 16, 2014, 07:52:58 pm
That's exactly what I mean.
That's only status, not really part of Ukraine and it could be easily cancelled without another referendum. Well, it already was like week ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 16, 2014, 07:53:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 16, 2014, 07:43:40 pm
Lol, at least I thought were would be an option to keep the shit as it was a month ago - "part of Ukraine without super autonomy"
Without this option this referendum would not be legitimate even with eu observers & ukrainian military on the streets.

For pro-Ukrainian Crimean this referendum looks like:
"
-We will rape you every monday
-We will rape you every sunday
No option to not get raped, sorry.
"

P.S. Nope, you cannot leave both options unmarked to vote for old style Crimea. It would be considered as invalid(googletranslate last sentence) .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 07:57:42 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2014, 07:15:41 pm
You can spew your conspiracy bullshit as much as you want...

It won't change the fact that the lesser evil is still better.

Who talked about conspiracy ? Nothing is secret. Have you ever seen a master ploting against his slaves ?? They just lie, repress and divide (Western like other countries)
 Read books, stop watch tv and open your retarded mind.
You can still think that EU or USA are better than Russia, but don't talk about "human rights" or good guys against axis of evil.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2014, 08:06:57 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 07:57:42 pm
Read books, stop watch tv and open your retarded mind.
You can still think that EU or USA are better than Russia, but don't talk about "human rights" or good guys against axis of evil.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 16, 2014, 08:20:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 07:57:42 pm
You can still think that EU or USA are better than Russia, but don't talk about "human rights" or good guys against axis of evil.
You should visit us sometimes, tovarisch!  :wink:
You remind me some dudes who think that North Korea is better than "new world order".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2014, 08:36:30 pm
I've never said that, I'm happy to live in a western democracy. But since the end of the soviet bloc they don't need democracy anymore. And they want a world government. This is their project, and this is why they fear an eurasiatic bloc (Russia/China/Iran) and try to contain these countries or any one who dare to resist (Khadaffi, Chavez etc.).
Even Obama talks about US hegemony over the world.
It's not just a theory, that's their foreign policy. And it's not new.
You can think it's a good think for the world. But just remember they don't need democracy anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 16, 2014, 08:58:21 pm
Tovi, being critical toward western countries is fine, but what you say here is retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 16, 2014, 09:03:40 pm
82% voted.
93% of them voted for joining Russia.

"Welcome Home!"
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 16, 2014, 09:17:59 pm
What do you guys think of http://tvrain.ru/ ? Saw my parents watching this, was surprised to see a russian TV channel being so unbiased towards the events in Ukraine/Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 16, 2014, 09:23:07 pm
It was banned from Russian cable tv few months ago(still available online). Considered as last opposition channel.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 16, 2014, 09:29:14 pm
Well, it's available as cable/satellite TV here in the Baltics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on March 16, 2014, 09:59:02 pm

Oh come on, if Ukraine will show more action like this, I'm worried about their independence future.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 16, 2014, 10:06:31 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 16, 2014, 09:17:59 pm
What do you guys think of http://tvrain.ru/ ? Saw my parents watching this, was surprised to see a russian TV channel being so unbiased towards the events in Ukraine/Crimea.

Now I know how to say "exit poll" in Russian.

By the way, is reaching 82% turnout plausible in a few hours of voting ? Yeah, don't think so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Fredom on March 16, 2014, 10:12:39 pm
Krim is part of russia now... gg
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 16, 2014, 10:26:20 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 16, 2014, 10:57:33 pm
Especially when a considerable part has said that they are boycotting it.
Also, is it common practice to go to people's houses to get their votes if they are unable to go to the urns themselves or vote by proxy? I can't find it now, but read about it earlier today
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 10:59:26 pm
Quote from: Moncho on March 16, 2014, 10:57:33 pm
Especially when a considerable part has said that they are boycotting it.
Also, is it common practice to go to people's houses to get their votes if they are unable to go to the urns themselves or vote by proxy? I can't find it now, but read about it earlier today

It is. But it's not being done like you've probably seen. In order to perform such voting you need 2 representatives at least + delivery. And you shouldn't vote on the street :D

Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians mostly boycotted this referendum so it's all like I've predicted. Wasn't hard though  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 16, 2014, 11:59:09 pm
Quote from: Moncho on March 16, 2014, 10:57:33 pm
Also, is it common practice to go to people's houses to get their votes if they are unable to go to the urns themselves or vote by proxy?

Yes it is usual practice to visit those who are unable to get to voting stand but said over the phone they want to vote. What voting by proxy means?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 17, 2014, 12:02:06 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 16, 2014, 11:59:09 pm
Yes it is usual practice to visit those who are unable to get to voting stand but said over the phone they want to vote. What voting by proxy means?
By proxy means that you designate a person to vote for you because you cannot do it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 17, 2014, 12:04:34 am
That's not possible in my country. You have to vote by yourself and to sign it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 17, 2014, 12:19:26 am
Quote from: Fredom on March 16, 2014, 10:12:39 pm
Krim is part of russia now... gg

Russia gets "Dishonorable scum" Casus Belli for forced annex
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 17, 2014, 12:26:40 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 17, 2014, 12:04:34 am
That's not possible in my country. You have to vote by yourself and to sign it.

thats the joke!

russian doods voting for everyone else, because they assume thats what they would want!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 17, 2014, 12:46:22 am
Quote from: Christo on March 17, 2014, 12:19:26 am
Russia gets "Dishonorable scum" Casus Belli for forced annex

The U.S.A. has entered an embargo against Russian Federation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 02:49:38 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 10:59:26 pm
It is. But it's not being done like you've probably seen. In order to perform such voting you need 2 representatives at least + delivery. And you shouldn't vote on the street :D

Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians mostly boycotted this referendum so it's all like I've predicted. Wasn't hard though  :mrgreen:

Even without the obvious legal problems, boycotting only enforces what the people didnt want, basically if you boycotted the referendum I hope you went to live somewhere else than Crimea or you're fucking yourself in the anus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 17, 2014, 02:58:23 am
Implying things would be any different had they not boycotted it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 03:24:54 am
It has become a mootpoint, but from now on they can always explain the good result by the fact everyone who wanted to vote no, didnt vote, and they wouldnt be far from the reality, increasing the legitimacy of the referendum result and accusing the poor democratic response of the anti-russian Crimean people...

If everyone would have voted and the results would have been the same, at least they would have felt the hypothetical electoral hold-up.
The complacency which comes with boycotting only works with commercial products, not with elections.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 17, 2014, 06:48:48 am
Everyone who wanted to vote no didn't have this option
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on March 17, 2014, 06:53:57 am
Quote from: serr on March 17, 2014, 06:48:48 am
Everyone who wanted to vote no didn't have this option
i suppose this is situation in crimea.

 Do you want to join Russia?

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 17, 2014, 07:14:56 am
Quote from: serr on March 16, 2014, 01:33:09 pm
Not entirely true. It is autonomous even now.
By second point Crimea would get right to make their own foreign policy with all consequences.
so between the two options:
  1. be slaves of chocolate chip cookie Putin in Russia
  2. be in a state with their own foreign policy under a truly democratic Strong Ukraine
people chose the first? xnxnxnxnxnxn
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 17, 2014, 07:54:27 am
It might be hard for a thinking-challenged Russian to understand, but option two would not in practice be any different from option one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 17, 2014, 08:10:19 am
Quote from: Butan on March 17, 2014, 03:24:54 am
It has become a mootpoint, but from now on they can always explain the good result by the fact everyone who wanted to vote no, didnt vote, and they wouldnt be far from the reality, increasing the legitimacy of the referendum result and accusing the poor democratic response of the anti-russian Crimean people...
Quote from: serr on March 17, 2014, 06:48:48 am
Everyone who wanted to vote no didn't have this option
Quote from: Butan on March 16, 2014, 10:26:20 pm
Forgot to read  :oops:
  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Christo on March 17, 2014, 12:19:26 am
Russia gets "Dishonorable scum" Casus Belli for forced annex
"Kongo has entered into a Military Coalition against Russia"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 17, 2014, 09:18:37 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 17, 2014, 10:04:28 am
Quote from: Xant on March 17, 2014, 07:54:27 am
It might be hard for a thinking-challenged Russian to understand, but option two would not in practice be any different from option one.
  It might be hard for a thinking-challenged EU my old friend to understand what it aleast would have shown that the population of Crimea is not united in their desire to join Russia.
Now USA USA USA puppets in UNa forced act not only against the chocolate chip cookie Russia but also  against 96 80% population of Crimea (on paper atleast).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 17, 2014, 10:20:28 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 17, 2014, 10:04:28 am
  It might be hard for a thinking-challenged EU my old friend to understand what it aleast would have shown that the population of Crimea is not united in their desire to join Russia.
Now USA USA USA puppets in UNa forced act not only against the chocolate chip cookie Russia but also  against 96% population of Crimea (on paper atleast).
No, it wouldn't have shown that. The options were "join Russia" or "join Russia after the pro-Russian government says we join Russia."

Even if there was a "fuck off" option, how do you know the results wouldn't be manipulated? The current situation in Crime is not exactly the best for neutral and fair elections.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 17, 2014, 10:28:57 am
Quote from: Xant on March 17, 2014, 10:20:28 am
No, it wouldn't have shown that. The options were "join Russia" or "join Russia after the pro-Russian government says we join Russia."
Even if there was a "fuck off" option, how do you know the results wouldn't be manipulated? The current situation in Crime is not exactly the best for neutral and fair elections.
the whole world is a lie, there is even the possibility that your real father is unemployed drunkman from Russia, who had brought a carton of cigarettes for sale ^^ Just deal with dat and get leveling.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 17, 2014, 11:15:36 am
Yep, true brainwashed Russian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 11:40:55 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 16, 2014, 11:04:13 am
[...] so I guess this referendum will be 99.8% for joining Russia with more than 100% of votes.

Crimean self proclaimed government announced 96.77% of votes for joining Russia with 83.1% of population. My mistake was 3.03%, I guess my ironic joke had a great success. Funny thing that votes for staying in Ukraine are somewhere around 2% because more than 1% of bulletins were wasted. That what happens when Russians count bulletins (unluckily 146% didn't show up this time :( ). Just an example: in the end of 2012 Crimeans were the least active in elections in the whole Ukraine having less than 50% activity. Year passes, a lot of people boycott the referendum and BAM Crimeans have more than 83% of activity. Magic of Russian election system, like in good ol' times of USSR.

Oh lol  :lol: Just read the official announcement of Mikhail Malyshev (the head of referendum commission): he said that during elections 1,250,426 voted in Crimea besides Sevastopol and 1,724,563 including it. 1,724,563 - 1,250,426 = 474,137. It's 100,000 more people than there are registered citizens in Sevastopol including kids  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 17, 2014, 12:07:27 pm
Quote
Oh lol  :lol: Just read the official announcement of Mikhail Malyshev (the head of referendum commission): he said that during elections 1,250,426 voted in Crimea besides Sevastopol and 1,724,563 including it. 1,724,563 - 1,250,426 = 474,137. It's 100,000 more people than there are registered citizens in Sevastopol including kids  :lol:

Link please
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 17, 2014, 12:39:42 pm
Russia gets -143 Aggressive Expansion malus with Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Poland, Belarus, Khazakstan, Georgia, Armenia, Ukraine, Moldova and Azerbaidjan
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 17, 2014, 01:15:08 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 17, 2014, 12:39:42 pm
Russia gets -143 Aggressive Expansion malus with Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lituania, Poland, Belarus, Khazakstan, Georgia, Armenia, Ukraine, Moldova and Azerbaidjan
You forgot English colonies in North America  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 01:20:09 pm
Quote from: serr on March 17, 2014, 12:07:27 pm
Link please

This is Russian source i.e. so I don't sound biased.
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2014/03/15_a_5951217.shtml
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 17, 2014, 01:25:06 pm
Quote from: serr on March 17, 2014, 12:07:27 pm
Link please
Putin's chocolate chip cookie machine has already destroyed this source lies and prapogandy  :P Dave will be next
btw i think he have problems with read numbers ^^ mistaken several times for tens of thousands, but immediately corrected himself)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oNBomzHAHk

by the way what I did wrong? why schizo angered? why he is no longer a plus my posts ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 17, 2014, 01:52:38 pm
Shizo is reversed Kalokai.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 01:56:54 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 11:40:55 am
Just an example: in the end of 2012 Crimeans were the least active in elections in the whole Ukraine having less than 50% activity. Year passes, a lot of people boycott the referendum and BAM Crimeans have more than 83% of activity. Magic of Russian election system, like in good ol' times of USSR.

Comparing an election for ukrainian oligarch #1 and ukrainian oligarch #2 who get 50% activity, and a referendum to join good ol' Russia altogether? Use logic sometimes, pretty normal people are more interested to get their mostly-Russian people country out of pro-EU Kiev state, and come to vote massively to enact it.



Quote
Oh lol  :lol: Just read the official announcement of Mikhail Malyshev (the head of referendum commission): he said that during elections 1,250,426 voted in Crimea besides Sevastopol and 1,724,563 including it. 1,724,563 - 1,250,426 = 474,137. It's 100,000 more people than there are registered citizens in Sevastopol including kids  :lol:

Guess what: people from NOT Crimea - Ukraine came to vote here, and not only pro-russian people. Also your maths is based on 3 years old census. Just from the last months of uprising, lots of pro-russia fled in eastern provinces to not get burned by peaceful molotov throwers and -magically- boosted their population.




Quote from: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 11:40:55 am
Crimean self proclaimed government announced 96.77% of votes for joining Russia with 83.1% of population. My mistake was 3.03%, I guess my ironic joke had a great success. Funny thing that votes for staying in Ukraine are somewhere around 2% because more than 1% of bulletins were wasted. That what happens when Russians count bulletins (unluckily 146% didn't show up this time :( ).

Your mistake was "early result" poll. What you didnt get yesterday is that even in modern democratic countries you have people counting bulletins and on a hour-to-hour basis and calculating the temporary results + broadcasting on TV.



Quote from: Xant on March 17, 2014, 07:54:27 am
Option two would not in practice be any different from option one.

Quote from: Xant on March 17, 2014, 07:54:27 am
It might be hard for a thinking-challenged Russian to understand, but option two would not in practice be any different from option one.

Quote from: Xant on March 17, 2014, 10:20:28 am
No, it wouldn't have shown that. The options were "join Russia" or "join Russia after the pro-Russian government says we join Russia."
Even if there was a "fuck off" option, how do you know the results wouldn't be manipulated? The current situation in Crime is not exactly the best for neutral and fair elections.


Hey hey now, I though this debate was over at page 113 (http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/1680/), the option 2 was -fact- NOT JOIN RUSSIA. Re-stating your factual opinion on a scenario where people massively vote 2 and the results dont change, is a tad pretentious since the concerned population (Crimean people) forbid themselves to vote. I might be a true brainwased russian too, but at least I'm not pretending I'm Nostradamus and that if people wouldnt have openly boycotted and conceded victory to russian side, things would have been different.

I'm all for being a cynical man and its pretty obvious things wouldnt have been different (or only slightly so) even if there hadnt been a boycott, but thats a wrong argument to oppose to the apparently rigged results.



Seeing all the butthurt comments on how referendum should have been done, how fast it was, how efficient it was, I think that even if the results wouldnt have been rigged it wouldnt have changed a thing on this forum opinion on the referendum itself and its legitimacy. Like every national elections where the political stability is off, the losing side accuse the other of cheating, thats a bit like corruption accusation on people actually in power (which proved to be true for Yanukovich).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 17, 2014, 02:07:02 pm
You just don't seem capable of understanding how Kremlin "democracy" and foreign "policy" works.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 02:08:20 pm
I know, it disgust me too and I understand the call for boycott, but if I would have boycotted I wouldnt be here saying "results are rigged, my vote wasnt taken into account! oh wait...".

Abstention is a two edged blade.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 02:20:14 pm
Okay, Butan is just a retard who tries to look competent and smart by reading 1 article. Incompetent, stupid and hypocrite. Those are 3 words I would use to describe you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 17, 2014, 02:22:10 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 17, 2014, 01:56:54 pm
Guess what: people from NOT Crimea - Ukraine came to vote here, and not only pro-russian people. Also your maths is based on 3 years old census. Just from the last months of uprising, lots of pro-russia fled in eastern provinces to not get burned by peaceful molotov throwers and -magically- boosted their population.


source?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 02:23:59 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 17, 2014, 02:22:10 pm
source?

Here's the source:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 17, 2014, 02:25:17 pm
Russia occupies the region with military forces
Monopolises its own media over the region, with it spouting non-stop propaganda
Posts a lot of propaganda material over the region, agitates the populace against Kiev
Rushes the referendum (efficiency?! LMAO.) to prevent people from actually making an informed choice
Referendum choices are one-sided
Heavy "self-defence" force presence prevents any pro-Ukrainian information from appearing anywhere
Referendum itself is a complete joke, managing a >100% attendance.

What the fuck else do you need?
Jeez, i imagine that you, irl, confronted by a stereotypically dressed thug, brandishing a knife, in a dark alley and asking for your phone, would still insist that the guy is merely an innocent guy wanting to make a phonecall, up to the moment he sticks the knife between your ribs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 02:29:42 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 17, 2014, 02:25:17 pm
Russia occupies the region with military forces
Monopolises its own media over the region, with it spouting non-stop propaganda
Posts a lot of propaganda material over the region, agitates the populace against Kiev
Rushes the referendum (efficiency?! LMAO.) to prevent people from actually making an informed choice
Referendum choices are one-sided
Heavy "self-defence" force presence prevents any pro-Ukrainian information from appearing anywhere
Referendum itself is a complete joke, managing a >100% attendance.

What the fuck else do you need?
Jeez, i imagine that you, irl, confronted by a stereotypically dressed thug, brandishing a knife, in a dark alley and asking for your phone, would still insist that the guy is merely an innocent guy wanting to make a phonecall, up to the moment he sticks the knife between your ribs.

I didn't give a single minus in this thread, not even to Tovi or Dark Blade. But Butan made me give him twice in a row. He either pretends to be retarded or he is really retarded. Complaining about my logic having no logic himself is just very smart.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 17, 2014, 02:34:01 pm
But you do not get it!
The people of Ukraine were deceived first, unlawfully deposed the president and joined a neo-navisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi new world order that threatens the freedom of the russian populace in the country to obey the great comrade rule, because freedom is slavery, and then of course the big comrade Putin had to come in and save them, because ignorance is strength, to which the western powers laughed and in their weakness failed to reply with more than an angrily worded statement. Now, of course, war is peace, and it is the next desirable step, since the western imperialists want to extend their reign of terror over the East of Ukraine which the Motherland cannot allow either.
All hail the great comrade Putin, who can do no wrong and will lead the Ukrainians back into the mantle of the glorious Motherland!
And remember, kids, big comrade (and big capitalist) is watching you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 03:06:10 pm
Omg even ptx bully me now  :(

Would be cool if you tried to at least adress one of my counter-argument, but I guess going over the name-calling stade is too hard for you guys.


tl;dr: referendum is bs, ok; but boycott too + criticism of option 2; now minus me all you want  :P


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 17, 2014, 03:09:31 pm
Ok, let me adress everything you've said:

1. [citation needed]
2. Are you fucking serious?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 03:26:07 pm
If you go past your nerd-rage you will see that I didnt contradict one point you made in your "reply" a few inchs up on your screen. Basically I dont feel you're adressing me in your last posts, got that feel from Dave & co since page 30+ but from you its new!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 17, 2014, 03:29:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 17, 2014, 03:26:07 pm
If you go past your nerd-rage you will see that I didnt contradict one point you made in your "reply" a few inchs up on your screen. Basically I dont feel you're adressing me in your last posts, got that feel from Dave & co since page 30+ but from you its new!
You should consider skipping back 20+ pages and read all the nonsense you wrote once more and then re-think your silly approach to this matter.

Btw, Tovi is French (I think) and Butan is too (I think)... Coincidence?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rogue on March 17, 2014, 03:33:18 pm
But so is Oberyn, I don't see a pattern here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 17, 2014, 03:37:01 pm
Oberyn is special in any case :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on March 17, 2014, 03:37:28 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 17, 2014, 03:37:36 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 17, 2014, 03:26:07 pm
If you go past your nerd-rage you will see that I didnt contradict one point you made in your "reply" a few inchs up on your screen. Basically I dont feel you're adressing me in your last posts, got that feel from Dave & co since page 30+ but from you its new!
No, i'm pretty sure i'm adressing you - or at least whatever you wrote.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 03:43:25 pm
Ignore that post if you dont like off-topic backpedalling over-intellectualizing post  :shock:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 17, 2014, 03:43:38 pm
Ukrainians mobilizing, but to me it seems just a defensive precaution agains troubly in eastern part of the country, nothing to do with Crimea.

I still believe it would be possible to come to the agreement, if Russians decide Crimea is enough. I mean, Crimea is not really heartland of Ukraine, it has no historical significance to Ukrainians, and to be honest it was integrated in the country with complete bureaucratic bullshit decision. Moreover, even without Russian interference Ukraine would face a great problem with controling the population that wants to be part of Russia.

However, it is part of the Ukraine and it cost Ukraine a lot of money. How come no one comes up with the proposal to organize a fair referendum, this time with international observers and such, and if Crimea decides to split that Ukrainians deliver a bill to Russkies. For example, we invested in Crimea that much billions of dollars since 1954, please pay up. The bill could be 900-1000 billions of dollars. It would be cheaper for Russians than economic sanctions, and Ukrainians wouldn't have to worry about foreign debts anymore.

No one would be too happy, but no one would be too unhappy. 

Its not like something like that did not happen before, take Louisiana Purchase for example.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 17, 2014, 05:51:19 pm

Will it really get better for them in Russia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 17, 2014, 06:11:00 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 17, 2014, 05:51:19 pm

Will it really get better for them in Russia?
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 :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 17, 2014, 06:13:32 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 17, 2014, 06:11:00 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

 :D

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 17, 2014, 07:29:22 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 17, 2014, 03:43:38 pm
if Russians decide Crimea is enough. I mean, Crimea is not really heartland of Ukraine, it has no historical significance to Ukrainians, and to be honest it was integrated in the country with complete bureaucratic bullshit decision.

I think that the problem is not Crimea in itself, but the precedence precedent which takes place currently and which can be followed by another "refererendum" in the future. The loss of Crimea probably wouldn't be big deal for Ukraine from economical or historical point of view, but for russia it will be clear signal that they can do whatever they want and noone will lift a finger to stop them.

:P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 17, 2014, 07:31:19 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 17, 2014, 07:29:22 pm
precedence

nope
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 17, 2014, 07:29:22 pm
I think that the problem is not Crimea in itself, but the precedence which takes place currently and which can be followed by another "refererendum" in the future. The loss of Crimea probably wouldn't be big deal for Ukraine from economical or historical point of view, but for russia it will be clear signal that they can do whatever they want and noone will lift a finger to stop them.

You mean like US empire ? They can invade Irak without any legit (just one exemple). Oh yes i'm french so I like Russia and I hate hamburgers.
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.
When Kosovo or south Sudan voted for independance it was a wonderfull victory for democracy. But in Crimea, it's different, it's RUSSIA, those infamous commies, the new axis of EVIL. Please God help America and is buffon John Kerry (Skull and Bones inc.)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on March 17, 2014, 07:52:43 pm
Yes the US acted like dicks in Iraq. The whole world knows that.

But that doesn't mean Russia can act like dicks in Crimea to.

They are completely separate events with no relation to each other.

Not to mention the Western Governments that got involved in Iraq have now largely, completely changed (on the face).

US ect cooked up a whole pile of shit problems for themselves with Iraq in every which way and now Russia are doing the same thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:57:00 pm
No it's not a reason To invade any country. But it's a reason to show some humility in international relationships. First, by not trying to destabilize other countries with billions of $$.
Or spy them...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 17, 2014, 08:04:43 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Maybe you don't know but unification of germany was approved by parliament of east germany. And I don't get it how actions of USA in middle east justify what Russia does in crimea.

Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
When Kosovo or south Sudan voted for independance it was a wonderfull victory for democracy. But in Crimea, it's different, it's RUSSIA, those infamous commies, the new axis of EVIL.

I'm quite sure referendum would be utterly different judged by public opinion in europe if there wouldn't be russian troops in crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 17, 2014, 08:06:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rumblood on March 17, 2014, 08:10:08 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
You mean like US empire ? They can invade Irak without any legit (just one exemple).

See what happened in Iraq is 'ol Hussein firgured he could try to assassinate Bush I and Bush II would be too skeered to do anything about it. But it turns out 'ol Hussein was dead wrong. Get it? DEAD wrong? Oh hahah, I slay myself.

As fer them Ukranians, them boys was Soviet. I reckon karma is a bitch fer them.

Cold Warrior  :!:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on March 17, 2014, 08:14:34 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 17, 2014, 08:26:25 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.
Oh boy... thanks for that awesome signature-quote!

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 17, 2014, 08:28:50 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 17, 2014, 08:04:43 pm
Maybe you don't know but unification of germany was approved by parliament of east germany. And I don't get it how actions of USA in middle east justify what Russia does in crimea.

I'm quite sure referendum would be utterly different judged by public opinion in europe if there wouldn't be russian troops in crimea.

To be fair, we have sold us for 100 DeutschMark.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 17, 2014, 08:31:53 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 17, 2014, 08:28:50 pm
To be fair, we have sold us for 100 DeutschMark.

100 bilions? :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 08:39:38 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 17, 2014, 08:26:25 pm
Oh boy... thanks for that awesome signature-quote!

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Crimea was separated for less time than Germany was. Russian wants to reunite their country, I see no differences.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 09:08:17 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 08:39:38 pm
Crimea was separated for less time than Germany was. Russian wants to reunite their country, I see no differences.

Not only your logic is retarded but math too. Stop making a clown of yourself, leave it in the end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 17, 2014, 09:09:33 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 08:39:38 pm
Russian wants to reunite their country, I see no differences.

(click to show/hide)

"Boo fucking hoo, russia so minor and oppressed by evil west this tiny country wants reuniting because of evil west Obama wants russia small QQ QQ

I'm so sorry for Russia they certainly need more land, QQ QQ"

This is what you sound like, just saying.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 17, 2014, 09:49:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 08:39:38 pm
Crimea was separated for less time than Germany was. Russian wants to reunite their country, I see no differences.
My russian colleague (from some place in Siberia) has told that Russia does not want war and that the Crimea belongs to Russia.
My reply was "I have heard that Königsberg is quite nice during this time of the year." But i guess he did not get the hint.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 10:15:19 pm
Haha, funny video. A guy on pro-Russian demonstration who can't even speak Russian  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 17, 2014, 10:30:35 pm
Was listening to BBC R2 today and it was basically was an argument between some Russian Diplomat and an American guy.

Of course the Russian guy pointed out the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as an example of why what Russia was doing was 10x better than what the Americans did. The Russians say that they are protecting the Russian people within Crimea and that it is totally justified.

So does  this mean that Russia will walk into Latvia next of another ex-soviet country just to protect its people?

Where does this Russia protection actually end, a return to the Old 'Glorious' Soviet union?


Surely if the Russians want to protect their people they will be coming next for London (this is a joke)

It just seems that this argument for the protection of Russian people is a bit wishy washy and has very little credible ground. The referendum for me still doesn't explain annexation of Crimea by Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 17, 2014, 10:53:24 pm
Quote from: Strudog on March 17, 2014, 10:30:35 pm
Where does this Russia protection actually end.

Russian protection began at Maidan, and will end when Russia is satiated or someone stop them.


Quote from: Strudog on March 17, 2014, 10:30:35 pm
Of course the Russian guy pointed out the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as an example of why what Russia was doing was 10x better than what the Americans did.

Implying you dont agree that a war to kill a terrorist group of a few hundreds, destroying a country in the process, is more justifiable than meddling in a country where your kin form the majority of the population and drawing no blood?
Stop repeating yourself and I will too  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 17, 2014, 10:58:55 pm
A small side note, at the start of the 2nd world war the SU has attacked Polend to protect the ukrainian minority from the evil germanz.

Anyway Crimea it not annexed yet, currently it is an independent country that wants to join the Russian Federation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 17, 2014, 11:16:23 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 17, 2014, 10:53:24 pm
Russian protection began at Maidan
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 17, 2014, 11:51:30 pm
Looks like we've got another Kosovo/Monteblack in spanish. Who's next, Venetian Republic (bet cmp would vote for independence) or good old Catalonia and Baskia?

Romanian president thinks Moldavia is next russian target.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 18, 2014, 12:04:13 am
Quote from: Mala on March 17, 2014, 10:58:55 pm
A small side note, at the start of the 2nd world war the SU has attacked Polend to protect the ukrainian minority from the evil germanz.
From evil Poles, actually, since Cookies & Commies were friends back there  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 18, 2014, 12:41:29 am
pls Kafein
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 18, 2014, 12:53:49 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 17, 2014, 11:51:30 pm
Looks like we've got another Kosovo/Monteblack in spanish. Who's next, Venetian Republic (bet cmp would vote for independence) or good old Catalonia and Baskia?

Romanian president thinks Moldavia is next russian target.
Catalonia and Scotland are both on track for next autumn already, although only one of them doing things properly, another example of the differences in common sense between Spaniards and Brits...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 18, 2014, 05:10:19 am
Funny how people keep bringing up Iraq/Afghanistan. Pretty sure anyone who's visited doesn't give a fuck about what happens to them. Ukraine at least has real people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 06:02:22 am
Quote from: Xant on March 18, 2014, 05:10:19 am
Funny how people keep bringing up Iraq/Afghanistan. Pretty sure anyone who's visited doesn't give a fuck about what happens to them. Ukraine at least has real people.

Wut ? :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 18, 2014, 07:54:01 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 06:02:22 am
Wut ? :shock:
Which part didn't you understand?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 18, 2014, 08:20:34 am
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-government-refuses-to-remove-troops-from-crimea-prepares-for-war-339724.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-government-refuses-to-remove-troops-from-crimea-prepares-for-war-339724.html)

Quote
In the wake of a March 16 referendum in which Crimeans voted to join the Russian Federation, Ukrainian leaders refused to cede any part of the peninsula, calling on their troops to prepare for war.

“Crimea was, is, and will be our territory,” said Defense Minister Ihor Tenyukh in a statement delivered at the Ukrainian Crisis Media Center on March 17.

Former heavyweight boxing champion and leader of the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform Vitali Klitschko announced that Ukrainian troops would remain at their bases, even after March 21, the end of a peace treaty signed by the interior ministries of Ukraine and Russia.

Except the location would be Ukraine not the US
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 18, 2014, 08:28:42 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 10:15:19 pm
(click to show/hide)
and? there is a millions pro-eu ukranians who cant't even speak english ^^

meanwhile Belorussia mobilized visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 18, 2014, 08:48:23 am
Quote from: Nessaj on March 18, 2014, 08:20:34 am
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 18, 2014, 09:06:57 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

It doesn't really get any more clear than that. Russia has legitimate reasons to protect their bases, but nothing else, by far. Hugely cowardice position to agree to a treaty for the disarmament of a neighboring country, for then to invade it 10 years later.

Ukraine had that third largest nuclear stock ever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on March 18, 2014, 09:19:04 am
Even if many Westerners do not, the Russian government vividly remembers the historical context facilitating geo-strategical necessities, perceived and otherwise, for a buffer zone between it and a Germany who came very near to completely destroying Russia not long ago on its own, and now is even in the World's strongest warpact, NATO. However remote this may seem to some, government planners have to take these considerations into very serious account.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 18, 2014, 10:01:41 am
Quote from: Angantyr on March 18, 2014, 09:19:04 am
Even if many Westerners do not, the Russian government vividly remembers the historical context facilitating geo-strategical necessities, perceived and otherwise, for a buffer zone between it and a Germany who came very near to completely destroying Russia not long ago on its own, and now is even in the World's strongest warpact, NATO. However remote this may seem to some, government planners have to take these considerations into very serious account.
Yea, it actually makes kinda sense.
Before Maidan, the Ukraine paving the way into the EU, maybe even NATO at some point, must have annoyed Russia.
I start to think that some assure from the EU and the Ukraine - even written down in a contract - assuring Russia that they may enter the EU at some point but will never enter NATO, might have put Putin a lot more to rest and avoid the current conflict completely.
Afaik, no one of the EU actually talked to Russia before trying to talk the Ukraine into the EU-orientation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 11:40:23 am
Quote from: Mala on March 17, 2014, 10:58:55 pm
A small side note, at the start of the 2nd world war the SU has attacked Polend to protect the ukrainian minority from the evil germanz.



Let's not get into why Germany attacked Poland, and why it attacked other 10-11 countries. And let's not get into what Germany did in Ukraine. Enough to say that poor Ukrainians and all of the other people under evil germanz genuinly needed protection. Comparing Putin's agression, and for that matter, any other agression in history with the one Germans did would be ridiculous, disrespectful to the victims, and downright stupid.

 And regarding Kaliningrad, I think that was a small price to pay to SU for 20 million dead. Wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 11:41:28 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 17, 2014, 11:51:30 pm
Looks like we've got another Kosovo/Monteblack in spanish.
Comparing Kosovo and Monteblack in spanish is the next level of retardness, even for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 18, 2014, 11:56:36 am
Quote from: Molly on March 18, 2014, 10:01:41 am
Yea, it actually makes kinda sense.
Before Maidan, the Ukraine paving the way into the EU, maybe even NATO at some point, must have annoyed Russia.
I start to think that some assure from the EU and the Ukraine - even written down in a contract - assuring Russia that they may enter the EU at some point but will never enter NATO, might have put Putin a lot more to rest and avoid the current conflict completely.
Afaik, no one of the EU actually talked to Russia before trying to talk the Ukraine into the EU-orientation.
No, it does not make sense. If you always followed sense of your stronger, meaner neighbour - he would have parties when he wants, you would clean his flat afterwards.

Also - newsflash - russia (or maybe just putler) does not give a flying du(i)ck about what it signed. E.g. the treaty they signed with Ukraine about respecting its borders...?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on March 18, 2014, 12:04:45 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 17, 2014, 10:15:19 pm
Haha, funny video. A guy on pro-Russian demonstration who can't even speak Russian  :mrgreen:
(click to show/hide)

No biggie. We now have a minister of internal affairs who can't even speak Turkish.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 18, 2014, 01:07:53 pm
Crimea is a part of Russia now. All hail Putin!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 18, 2014, 01:34:14 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 18, 2014, 11:56:36 am
No, it does not make sense. If you always followed sense of your stronger, meaner neighbour - he would have parties when he wants, you would clean his flat afterwards.

Also - newsflash - russia (or maybe just putler) does not give a flying du(i)ck about what it signed. E.g. the treaty they signed with Ukraine about respecting its borders...?
You kinda missed my point:
Bringing Russia into the process of Ukraine going EU might probably have avoided all the shit going on right now.
It's not like the sensitivity of Russia is an unknown mystery.

Just saying that the EU fucked up too and big time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Aksei on March 18, 2014, 02:06:53 pm
Dear Russia, your doing it wrong.

How you do better:
1. Take some criminals nobody will miss
2. Kill them and put them into Crimea
3. Tell the world, massakers going on
4. Move in


On a serious note, nothing wrong that Crimea now belongs to russia again. The way wasnt the best. Everything looks like behavement of 30s.

But the whole Ukraine-"revolution" was a curious thing and i think the murricans have something to do with. Also the they dont want that EU and Russia have good relations.
Just think the way we gone the last years.
EU - Russia -> good relations / EU -> China -> good relations / Russia - China -> good relations
USA - EU  -> not that good  / USA - Russia  -> not that good / USA - China  -> not that good

My opinion is that the US now try to get EU back on their side with Ukraine blood
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 02:32:24 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 18, 2014, 10:01:41 am
Yea, it actually makes kinda sense.
Before Maidan, the Ukraine paving the way into the EU, maybe even NATO at some point, must have annoyed Russia.
I start to think that some assure from the EU and the Ukraine - even written down in a contract - assuring Russia that they may enter the EU at some point but will never enter NATO, might have put Putin a lot more to rest and avoid the current conflict completely.
Afaik, no one of the EU actually talked to Russia before trying to talk the Ukraine into the EU-orientation.

It doesn't work that way. Remember this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis)?

Replace Cuba with Ukraine and switch USA for Russia and it finally makes some sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on March 18, 2014, 03:08:40 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 17, 2014, 11:51:30 pm
Looks like we've got another Kosovo/Monteblack in spanish.

As I said in another thread there are some big differences:

1. Noone killed in Crimea (lot's of native serbians killed in Kosovo)
2. Crimeans are not living in reservation "in a state of war" (in some parts of Kosovo serbians don't have even toilet paper and learning books)
3. Crimea's prime minister is not an international terrorist (Adem Jashari albanian national hero is)
4. Russians did have army in Crimea. It's our military bases and navy, Ukranian side was being paid for. (Americans were involved in some skirmishes in Kosovo)
5. Crimeans DO have a right to "pick a side", while in Kosovo there was henocide of native folks.
6. Crimea is tourist center for most of russians and ukranians, albanian Kosovo is now drug dealing, slave dealing, prostitute and terrorist center of EU.
7. EU and US are against of Crimea being added to Russia, but ok with Kosovo's massacre.

The funny thing is that Kosovo is the heart of Europe and now americans have their military bases there.
Americans are extremly good at destabilizing EU, Africa, East.
One thing I don't understand is why EU is still being US puppet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 18, 2014, 03:13:30 pm
You wouldn't understand, being a brainwashed Russian state-puppet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on March 18, 2014, 03:16:12 pm
Ok, please, tell me what's wrong with my post? Point out please where is brainwashing?
Are you sure you are not brainwashed?

Also, you are totally wrong, cause
1. I don't watch TV and don't read pro-Kremlin journals and papers
2. I don't support putin's government
3. I am aware of different points of view on Ukranian theme (russian, ukranian, eu and us) and I don't support any of them, cause it's just stupid.

Try a bit harder please, if you are capable of smth more then just trying to insult
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2014, 03:19:57 pm
Quote from: Aksei on March 18, 2014, 02:06:53 pm
Dear Russia, your doing it wrong.

How you do better:
1. Take some criminals nobody will miss
2. Kill them and put them into Crimea
3. Tell the world, massakers going on
4. Move in


On a serious note, nothing wrong that Crimea now belongs to russia again. The way wasnt the best. Everything looks like behavement of 30s.

But the whole Ukraine-"revolution" was a curious thing and i think the murricans have something to do with. Also the they dont want that EU and Russia have good relations.
Just think the way we gone the last years.
EU - Russia -> good relations / EU -> China -> good relations / Russia - China -> good relations
USA - EU  -> not that good  / USA - Russia  -> not that good / USA - China  -> not that good

My opinion is that the US now try to get EU back on their side with Ukraine blood

what?  another conspiracy theorist has reared his head.(maybe just russian idk)

since when has russia or china ever had good relations with the west?  China and Russia have a known history of opposing EU and the U.S in united nations meetings for who knows what reason(probably to just be assholes, because they can be), but that assuredly isnt to create better relations, not to mention China who you suppose has great relations with Russia has just abstained from the voting, which in lament terms means, fuck you russia you're on your own.

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1449547/russia-isolated-china-abstains-un-security-council-vote-crimea
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 18, 2014, 03:32:02 pm
Quote from: Zaharist on March 18, 2014, 03:16:12 pm
Ok, please, tell me what's wrong with my post?


You're Russian!
fckng communist.
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on March 18, 2014, 03:34:46 pm
born to be evil  :twisted:


 :( :cry: :( :cry: :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on March 18, 2014, 03:53:23 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2014, 03:19:57 pm
China and Russia have a known history of opposing EU and the U.S in united nations meetings for who knows what reason(probably to just be assholes, because they can be), but that assuredly isnt to create better relations, not to mention China who you suppose has great relations with Russia has just abstained from the voting, which in lament terms means, fuck you russia you're on your own.

Hey, clever boy

I'm glad to see how proud are you for being the part of World's Justice! Enlightening the World!

Seems like you know much about "good relations" in geopolitics... btw what the fuck is this?..

I would be glad to hear your opinion about american affairs in
Yougoslavia 41-49'
China 46-49'
Germany 45'
Japan 45'
France 47'
Greece 47-49'
Philippines 48-53'
Peru - 48'
Costa Rica - 48'
Nicaragua - 48'
Alabania - 49-53'
Puerto Rico - 50'
Albania - 49-53'
China - 51'
Gayana - 53-64'
Iran - 53'
Grenlandia - 53'
Guatemala - 54'
China - 56'
Livan - 58'
.............
........
.....
..
 :lol: fuck it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 18, 2014, 04:01:52 pm
Again, how is that relevant to the current situation in Ukraine ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 18, 2014, 04:19:34 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 18, 2014, 04:01:52 pm
Again, how is that relevant to the current situation in Ukraine ?

Who cares? America is bad and that's why good Russia can annex Ukrainian lands  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 18, 2014, 04:26:41 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 11:40:23 am
Let's not get into why Germany attacked Poland, and why it attacked other 10-11 countries. And let's not get into what Germany did in Ukraine. Enough to say that poor Ukrainians and all of the other people under evil germanz genuinly needed protection. Comparing Putin's agression, and for that matter, any other agression in history with the one Germans did would be ridiculous, disrespectful to the victims, and downright stupid.

 And regarding Kaliningrad, I think that was a small price to pay to SU for 20 million dead. Wouldn't you agree?

a bit OT;

Poland was attacked because it did not want to join the evil side and attack the SU. So it was more or less in the way.
Well i have not written it, but my point was, they always say that they want to save or protect someone. You will never hear that they just want more land, more resources or do not like the other government.

The point about Königsberg is that there is an international treaty, in which Germanyland accept the current borders and does not raise a claim on the lost areas.
And guess what, this treaty is not broken yet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 18, 2014, 04:27:41 pm
Quote from: Zaharist on March 18, 2014, 03:08:40 pm
As I said in another thread there are some big differences:

3. Crimea's prime minister is not an international terrorist (Adem Jashari albanian national hero is)
7. EU and US are against of Crimea being added to Russia, but ok with Kosovo's massacre.

Not going to bother to reply to everything. but uhm you're clearly biased and probably don't even know shit about Kosovo. Yes it's a shit place and very very corrupt, everyone knows that including the Albanians. I'm not a nationalist but claiming that Adem Jashari was an international terrorist proves my point that you do not know shit. He started the insurgency against police and military units and was therefore classed as a terrorist by the Serb government. His skirmishes lasted for one year until they sieged his home and killed him and his 20-30 relatives in there.

"Jashari was convicted of terrorism in absentia by a Yugoslav court on 11 July 1997. Human Rights Watch subsequently described the trial, in which fourteen other Kosovo Albanians were also convicted, as [failing] to conform to international standards."

He was never trialed by an international or serious court, ever. Which many later KLA commanders were. And they have been imprisoned. No one was "OK" with kosovo massacres. KLA commanders have been arrested and entire KLA was disbanded and all their weapons removed. I know from experience that UN keepers have went from home to home and confiscated weapons. Don't forget that it was a two sided-massacre.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 04:39:39 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 18, 2014, 04:19:34 pm
Who cares? America is bad and that's why good Russia can annex Ukrainian lands  :rolleyes:

There is no good or bad, just those who can and those who can't. Both foreign sides have their interest and neither are there because they like you guys.

All this foreign occupation and "support" aside, do you realize that current minister of defense of your country is self proclaimed, full fledged nazi. He probably ain't much worse than Yanukovich and company, but doesn't that bother you the slightest bit?

Quote
I'm not a nationalist but claiming that Adem Jashari was an international terrorist proves my point that you do not know shit.

Every soldier is a terrorist, because his job is to spread terror among people of other countries. I mentioned Kosovo and Monteblack in spanish together with Crimea only because those are 3 independent countries. Dude who quoted me is misinformed. There were killings on both sides, Albanians were in bad position longer than Serbians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 04:57:33 pm
Quote
current minister of defense of your country is self proclaimed, full fledged chocolate chip cookie.

Is he?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 05:06:34 pm
You want to say that Svoboda isn't right wing, neo-fascist party?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 05:12:45 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 05:06:34 pm
You want to say that Svoboda isn't right wing, neo-fascist party?

It is right-wing nationalist party, not neo-fascist or neo-chocolate chip cookie.
I don't like this party, there are too many retarded nationalists, who make things worse and basically play for Russia, but not most of them. And afaik Tenyukh(minister of defence) is not one of them.

Also most retards from that party switched to right sector recently(which is more radical right-wing organization, but also not neo-chocolate chip cookie)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 05:16:15 pm
And Obama, with his killer drones, Guantanamo and world massive spying is the champion of Democracy, always on the good side of History !  :mrgreen:
 If you don't believe in this huge fairy tale, you are a conspirationist, a racist or maybe a terrorist (let's check this with torture).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 18, 2014, 05:33:34 pm
Not taking true third world countries into account Russia has by far the dumbest people. You know the post is going to be retarded just by seeing the poster is Russian. Except for Segd the bicycling russian
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 18, 2014, 05:44:15 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 11:40:23 am
And regarding Kaliningrad, I think that was a small price to pay to SU for 20 million dead. Wouldn't you agree?

Nope. From my point of view Soviet russia was "almost" as evil as germany, so talking about some kind of gratification for them... The fact that they helped with overcoming chocolate chip cookies doesn't make Russia a good guy  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 18, 2014, 05:44:45 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 18, 2014, 05:33:34 pm
Not taking true third world countries into account Russia has by far the dumbest people. You know the post is going to be retarded just by seeing the poster is Russian. Except for Segd the bicycling russian
I'm only doing my humble job by destabilizing Russian soil  8-)
(click to show/hide)

Was playing Prophesy of Pendor mod today:
(click to show/hide)
Warband is so realistic! :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 05:51:01 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 18, 2014, 04:26:41 pm
a bit OT;

Poland was attacked because it did not want to join the evil side and attack the SU. So it was more or less in the way.
Well i have not written it, but my point was, they always say that they want to save or protect someone. You will never hear that they just want more land, more resources or do not like the other government.

The point about Königsberg is that there is an international treaty, in which Germanyland accept the current borders and does not raise a claim on the lost areas.
And guess what, this treaty is not broken yet.
First of all, the reason why Germany attacked Poland wasn't to get access to Russia. Motives for the attack were to get back for backstabbing in WW1, to get Lebensraum, and to enslave the Polish population. All of this is well documented in the plans and directives of German leadership.

And the last time Germany violated an international treaty there was a war. In which you were buttkicked by none other than USSR. My point being, you could never even attempt to take Kaliningrad from the Russians, because if you could you would have tried. But the Russians are too strong to even consider such a move, they would kick your ass. And now it is easy to brag how you respect international treaties.
 








Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 18, 2014, 05:51:33 pm
I don't really see the similarity with Kosovo. If ukrainians and russians had been deploying death squads and ethnically cleansing each other's villages there would be a similarity. If I truly believed even a fifth of the bullshit coming out of russian state owned and/or controlled media, you would think crimean russians escaped genocide by the skin of their teeth. Obviously that was not the case, and still isn't. Crocodile tears about scary neo-chocolate chip cookies aside, I have yet to see any of this vaunted opression supposedly endured by the poor victimized russian minority. Especially not anything on the scale of the albanian and serbian deathsquads.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 05:58:51 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 18, 2014, 05:44:15 pm
Nope. From my point of view Soviet russia was "almost" as evil as germany, so talking about some kind of gratification for them... The fact that they helped with overcoming chocolate chip cookies doesn't make Russia a good guy  :rolleyes:
Helped? I believe you are under the influence of Hollywood Gebels like, private Ryan propaganda. USSR win about 90% of the war and ha 40 times more casulties than rest of the Allies. If there wasnt stuborness to resist in USSR, the darkness would still dominate Europe, and all of us would be living in nazzi countries. Stoping that makes them, but Ukrainians also, good guys in my book.

@Oberyn

There was a good article about that in Figaro yesterday.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:01:13 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 05:58:51 pm
Stoping that makes them, but Ukrainians also, good guys in my book.

Don't forget about 50 years of occupation, gulag, installing puppet governments, and spreading bullshit propaganda, ruining economies, using secret police, sending in tanks to kill people..

Good guys my ass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 06:04:41 pm
Gut guys :

Quote
The Wiesenthal Center also cited Oleg Tyagnibok (No. 5) from the fascist Ukranian Svoboda party. He urged purges of the approximately 400,000 Jews and other minorities living in the Ukraine and has demanded that the country be liberated from the “Muscovite Jewish Mafia.”

Ukrainian MP Igor Miroshnichenko was cited for anti-Jewish remarks as well: He called Ukrainian-born American actress Mila Kunis a “zhydovka” (dirty Jewess).

Wiesenthal Center, top 10 antisemitic people 2012

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Wiesenthal-ranks-top-10-anti-Semites-Israel-haters

Svoboda : 38  deputies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:10:07 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 06:04:41 pm
Wiesenthal Center

Stopped reading there.

It's one of those organizations that shouldn't even exist. Quoting them is just a complete failure.
Funny because they condemn so called "chocolate chip cookies" while they are even worse. They should be banned and removed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 18, 2014, 06:13:33 pm
WW2 off-topic:


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 06:14:49 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:10:07 pm
Stopped reading there.

It's one of those organizations that shouldn't even exist. Quoting them is just a complete failure.
Funny because they condemn so called "chocolate chip cookies" while they are even worse. They should be banned and removed.

Yes, yes, we know : they should be exterminated, blabla.


But I have a good news for you : the gold of Ukraine is now in Fort Knox. Those devil Jews/russians won't get it. And US bankster can now play with it on  Comex  8-)
Next step : IMF come to "rescue" Ukraine : Gazoducs are sold to Enron, Steel industry is sold to Germany and Coal mines are sold to Finland. Welcome in EU folks !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:15:39 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 06:14:49 pm
Yes, yes, we know : they should be exterminated, blabla.

Reading comprehesion 0
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 06:21:23 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:01:13 pm
Don't forget about 50 years of occupation, gulag, installing puppet governments, and spreading bullshit propaganda, ruining economies, using secret police, sending in tanks to kill people..

Good guys my ass.
Just like German does not equal nazzi, Russian does not equal communist. It was not the Party that won the war, but the Soviet people. And THEY are the good guys in my book. And we can also discuss humanitarian actions of Brits, French and Begians in their colonies if you like, also happening in XX century. The point is, if we are all being hypocritical like Americans today and picking good guys, I would rather side with Russians and Ukrainians, instead with Germans, Brits and Muricans. Which natural I guess, me being from Monteblack in spanish and Russians not droping bombs on our heads in last 15 years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 06:23:38 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 18, 2014, 06:13:33 pm
WW2 off-topic:


(click to show/hide)
more because they had like 350 division fighting nazzies, while Brits had 10. And also, Brits liked to surrender a lot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:24:51 pm
Yeah, Soviet people spread so much "love" across the path they marched, many diseases especially STD-s that disappeared in those regions, re-appeared when the red hordes came along.

Very good guys, real heroes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 06:33:32 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:24:51 pm
Yeah, Soviet people spread so much "love" across the path they marched, many diseases especially STD-s that disappeared in those regions, re-appeared when the red hordes came along.

Very good guys, real heroes.
If they infected your grandmother, I appologize on their behalf. But lets not talk about the good guys until you live through good guys droping bombs on your country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:35:43 pm
I never called the west good guys either  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on March 18, 2014, 06:42:27 pm
We were totally the good guys, I remember something about buying lollipops to support something about Kosovo in elementary school.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 18, 2014, 06:52:55 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 18, 2014, 05:44:15 pm
Nope. From my point of view Soviet russia was "almost" as evil as germany, so talking about some kind of gratification for them... The fact that they helped with overcoming chocolate chip cookies doesn't make Russia a good guy  :rolleyes:

You just TRY to compare what stalin did to artificially ethnically based minority which lived in his country to what einstein did to a nationality based ethnic minority in his... Just you try. Its blasphemy. Completely uncomparable. Totally. Because one actec upon artificially constructed bourgeoisie , and another on jews. One was quite deadly, another was very deadly. And the first one thought that winning by overheating german mashineguns was a legit strategy and won.  By sacrificing everyone he could force to fight. And then some.

And also - the brave liberators - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080493/Stalins-army-rapists-The-brutal-war-crime-Russia-Germany-tried-ignore.html. Farmacists running out of poisons in the Konigsburg area were a common thing when germans were on retreat. That is why there was basically noone left living in Konigsburg and it ended up becoming Kaliningrad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 07:11:32 pm
Please stop that. 3rd Reich doesn't exist anymore, USSR doesn't exist anymore, nore even the Rossevelt's America.

Back in present days, do you realize that EU wants to sign treaties with a non-elected government ? That is just insane. Please wake up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 07:17:09 pm
You will be surprised, but, by constitution, government is not elected in Ukraine. It is appointed by parliament, which was elected.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 07:23:56 pm
And so, you can come in the parliament with guns and ask to sign anything ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 18, 2014, 07:25:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 07:11:32 pm
Please stop that. 3rd Reich doesn't exist anymore, USSR doesn't exist anymore, nore even the Rossevelt's America.

Back in present days, do you realize that EU wants to sign treaties with a non-elected government ? That is just insane. Please wake up.

If one can sign something with government "elected" by 146% of voters (as if there was a point to do that, I know, I know...) - then I see no problem signing something with democratically elected Ukr parliament or leaders appointed by it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 07:25:12 pm
Quote
And so, you can come in the parliament with guns and ask to sign anything ?
No, you can't. Did anyone do that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 18, 2014, 07:27:41 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 05:58:51 pm
Stoping that makes them, but Ukrainians also, good guys in my book.
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 06:01:13 pm
Don't forget about 50 years of occupation, gulag, installing puppet governments, and spreading bullshit propaganda, ruining economies, using secret police, sending in tanks to kill people..

Good guys my ass.

NOt to mention Russia attacked Poland in 1939 and after that Finland - doing exactly what they arranged with einstein in ribbentrop Molotov Pact. Not to mention in 1940 russia took 20 - 30 thousands of polish officers and representants of intelligentsia and executed them in the woods of Katyń. They were best pals, Stalin and H.itler, in 1939-40. Just because one of them atacked the other one doesn't make russia a good guy. It's like saying that Don Corleone was good and law loving guy because Barzinis (or whatever their name was), another mafia family, attacked him one day.

Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 05:58:51 pm
Helped? I believe you are under the influence of Hollywood Gebels like, private Ryan propaganda. USSR win about 90% of the war and ha 40 times more casulties than rest of the Allies.

Yeah, helped, because until 1941 russia wasn't fighting against chocolate chip cookies but with them. And without help from GB and USA, without west front and alliance airplanes destorying germany, russia would have never won a war.

Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 05:58:51 pm
If there wasnt stuborness to resist in USSR, the darkness would still dominate Europe, and all of us would be living in nazzi countries.

Just 30 years ago some of us, or our parents, lived in communistic countries. No comparison with na.zizm, no doubt about it, but still I wouldn't call russia liberator and good guy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 07:36:16 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 18, 2014, 05:51:33 pm
Crocodile tears about scary neo-chocolate chip cookies aside, I have yet to see any of this vaunted opression supposedly endured by the poor victimized russian minority.

Oh they are scary, very scary. Saying they aren't scary is an insult to all those people who died during WWII, few years before and after. When communists narrowly defeated fascists, they did everything in their power to exterminate that idea (by killing people among other measures).

What we have now is also quite scary. Communism collapsed two decades ago and we already have neo-fascists who wholeheartedly support all those "values" but are hiding direct ties with nazis. Today fascism is a choice, opinion and is cool as long einstein, 88, 14 and nazi svastika aren't associated with it. But those symbols aren't responsible for deaths of millions of people, ideas are. That is why it's okay for Svoboda and Golden Dawn to have an opinion as long that opinion isn't directly connected with einstein and everything he represents.

Just because communism isn't around anymore (which is a good thing), doesn't mean that fascism should be allowed to show up its ugly head again.

Ukraine is the first European country that gave power to fascists after many years. Next country to do so will be Greece. That must be stopped. These new generations seem to be very fond of fascism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 18, 2014, 07:43:36 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 07:36:16 pm
Ukraine is the first European country that gave power to fascists after many years. Next country to do so will be Greece. That must be stopped.

Hopefully in next few years all greeks will die out from starvation - problem solved. Hue hue :P

PS. okay, not funny, I know :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 07:47:02 pm
Please change your avatar. I don't like to have an erection while writing serious things.  :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 07:55:09 pm
Quote
Ukraine is the first European country that gave power to fascists after many years. Next country to do so will be Greece. That must be stopped. These new generations seem to be very fond of fascism.

What do you mean by giving power? Most powerful party in Ukraine right now is Fatherland(who are not nationalists), not Svoboda. There are only four Svoboda's members in new government and this is not first government where they have posts. And I'm 100% sure that in many European countries you can find(and could in past) some nationalists taking some posts in governments.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 18, 2014, 08:05:18 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 07:23:56 pm
And so, you can come in the parliament with guns and ask to sign anything ?

Quote from: serr on March 18, 2014, 07:25:12 pm
No, you can't. Did anyone do that?


Are you talking about Kiev or Sevastopol Simferopol ?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 08:07:00 pm
Quote
Are you talking about Kiev or Sevastopol ?  :mrgreen:

Lol, indeed, I forgot about Crimea. That happened in Simferopol though, not in Sevastopol  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 18, 2014, 08:14:18 pm
Fair point.


Why you minused me Falka, I made only good - neutral post recently  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 18, 2014, 08:21:37 pm
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465570/Ukraine-crisis-Ukraine-soldier-killed-after-Russian-soldiers-storm-Crimea-military-base (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465570/Ukraine-crisis-Ukraine-soldier-killed-after-Russian-soldiers-storm-Crimea-military-base)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/crimea-crisis-shots-fired-and-one-killed-as-russian-troops-storm-ukrainian-military-base-in-simferopol-9200203.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/crimea-crisis-shots-fired-and-one-killed-as-russian-troops-storm-ukrainian-military-base-in-simferopol-9200203.html)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/18/russian-troops-storm-ukrainian-base-in-crimea-apparently-kill-ukrainian-soldier-and-wound-another/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/18/russian-troops-storm-ukrainian-base-in-crimea-apparently-kill-ukrainian-soldier-and-wound-another/)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 08:26:31 pm
I mean : revolution begun cause of Yanucovich refused to sign an unfair treaty with EU. Then, people trained and supported by westerns countries took control of riots, thus of the government, by force (with guns).
Happy end : all treaties with the West are signed (or will be).
This is not exactly Democracy in my mind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 18, 2014, 08:28:14 pm
Loyalist Ukraine military bases have been under siege for like weeks, both aiming their weapons at each others, no shots fired from sheer luck from both side; Crimea becomes Russia officially, Ukrainian soldiers still under siege in now "Russian" barracks, storming and taking control of the last pockets of resistance manu militari, one dead, everybody jumps their shit? Seems legit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 08:29:27 pm
Hot blood decisions will follow. It's dangerous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 08:30:37 pm
Quote
Hot blood decisions will follow. It's dangerous.

Probably first post from you I completely support
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 18, 2014, 08:31:09 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 08:26:31 pm
I mean : revolution begun cause of Yanucovich refused to sign an unfair treaty with EU.

An unfair treaty? Which parts did you find unfair, please refer to source material.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 18, 2014, 08:31:55 pm
Before it was foreign troops (Russian) attacking national troops (Ukrainian), now it is national troops (Russian) attacking and ousting the evil Ukrainian invaders of the Motherland. The Ukrainian bases are like Private Ryan, trapped in a foreign hostile land.
Also, a referendum in peace is better than one in war. Now they can argue that they offered to get out of there and return, and they refused to...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 18, 2014, 08:37:37 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 18, 2014, 08:14:18 pm
Why you minused me Falka, I made only good - neutral post recently  :P

Tbh I don't remember why. You said sth about WWII which I didn't like, but cba to check what was that :P And I don't mind "bad" posts, expressing different opinion than mine, me downvoting your post doesn't change that :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 18, 2014, 08:46:58 pm
I can respect that  :)  here's my + of love.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 08:47:38 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on March 18, 2014, 08:31:09 pm
An unfair treaty? Which parts did you find unfair, please refer to source material.

It would have destroyed all the old industry int east of the country. And it was a first step for joing NATO later. But most important, when a democratic government says "No", this is "No".
But EU do not like democracy. When France and Netherland said "No" to the European Constitution treaty, it was adopted later with an other name... fuck you democracy, fuck you referendum, fuck you people. Again and again.
I know how EU works, i'm born inside.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 08:48:53 pm
Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence. I can't believe they will sacrifice those soldiers for fucking good PR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 18, 2014, 08:50:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 08:47:38 pm
I know how EU works, i'm born inside.
Good for you that you didn't born in Sparta. They used to throw your kind from a cliff.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalp on March 18, 2014, 08:53:55 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 08:48:53 pm
Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence. I can't believe they will sacrifice those soldiers for fucking good PR.
Two weeks too late.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 18, 2014, 08:59:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 08:47:38 pm
It would have destroyed all the old industry int east of the country. And it was a first step for joing NATO later. But most important, when a democratic government says "No", this is "No".
But EU do not like democracy. When France and Netherland said "No" to the European Constitution treaty, it was adopted later with an other name... fuck you democracy, fuck you referendum, fuck you people. Again and again.
I know how EU works, i'm born inside.

Democratic government? Since when? You did read that Ukraine is among the top 3 most corrupted nations on Earth.
Saying Ukraine had a democratic government is like saying Putin was elected democratically, how many percentages above 100% was it again? ...

The EU treaty was fine, maybe you were just worried about Tymoshenko's foreign medical check which was the only ultimatum; plus NATO would have been perfect for Ukraine, they should have joined when they gave up their arsenal, but hey that's why they got this treaty:

If you wan't talk to about something undemocratic, then try and read about the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/)

Quote
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is a political agreement signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. Later, China and France gave somewhat weaker individual statements of assurance as well.
The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.
Following the 2014 Crimean crisis, the U.S. and U.K. both separately stated that Russian involvement is in breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, and in clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.

According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:
  • Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
  • Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
  • Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
  • Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
  • Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
  • Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.

Which parts of those did Russia honor? Yeah, none. If Ukraine have still had their arsenal none of this would have happened.

This whole thing is beyond stupidity, all that this entails and implies for the future is bad..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 09:01:17 pm
Quote from: Kalp on March 18, 2014, 08:53:55 pm
Two weeks too late.

Definitely. Now it is pointless, they will only get killed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on March 18, 2014, 09:07:10 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 08:48:53 pm
Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence. I can't believe they will sacrifice those soldiers for fucking good PR.

Yeah. They should withdraw their soldiers from Crimea. If shit hits the fan they'll be the first to get a mouthful of it, isolated in their bases as they are, surrounded by hostile, well equipped, and presumably well trained Ruskies and  belligerent locals. If things escalate it'll be a blood bath, their lives tossed away for no good reason.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 09:13:16 pm
True, however it is very complicated. They can't just move out of there - they are blocked and lets be honest, they are in hostile territory now.
Obviously we need to make agreement, but with whom?
Our government is not recognized neither by Russia nor by Crimea authorities, and Crimea is still considered to be ukrainian territory by Ukraine. Any negotiations are extremely difficult to do and without negotiations there is no way to evacuate men.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on March 18, 2014, 09:21:56 pm
Those who are bemoaning Russia's lack of commitment to international law and treaties it finds inconvenient should remember that all countries act in this manner. Europe and North America are not exactly strict adherents to their commitments either, so I don't understand all this hubub over some treaty that was written with the implicit understanding that NATO and the EU would not encroach to Russia's borders.

Anyway, back to the endless circlejerk where no one will convince anyone of anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 09:26:04 pm
Quote from: Segd on March 18, 2014, 08:50:44 pm
Good for you that you didn't born in Sparta. They used to throw your kind from a cliff.  :rolleyes:

I don't see how you're different than him in that regard. He's from France and bashes EU government, you're from Russia and you're against Russian regime. Just don't justify your stance with right and wrong, those terms belong to religion, not politics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 09:29:01 pm
Quote from: serr on March 18, 2014, 09:13:16 pm
True, however it is very complicated. They can't just move out of there - they are blocked and lets be honest, they are in hostile territory now.
Obviously we need to make agreement, but with whom?
Our government is not recognized neither by Russia nor by Crimea authorities, and Crimea is still considered to be ukrainian territory by Ukraine. Any negotiations are extremely difficult to do and without negotiations there is no way to evacuate men.

Military officers can negotiate safe passage for those soldiers. I am sure Russians would agree. But you Gov has issued them order allowing them to fire. This suggests some disgusting politician probably wants them dead as martyrs, in order to unify the people to defend the country and support its leadership.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 18, 2014, 09:42:53 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 18, 2014, 09:29:01 pm
Military officers can negotiate safe passage for those soldiers. I am sure Russians would agree. But you Gov has issued them order allowing them to fire. This suggests some disgusting politician probably wants them dead as martyrs, in order to unify the people to defend the country and support its leadership.

Yes, that's very disturbing.
On other hand they had to react somehow on killing our soldier, it was impossible to ignore it. I can only hope it won't be followed by more stupid decisions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 09:50:21 pm
When you're weak against a strong opponent you have two options: to bend over and take the dick or go endure severe beating like a champ. Ukraine wasn't the first to have to make this choice. European counties after WWII were forced to bend over, some took USA dick, some Soviet, some managed to avoid it by playing dumb or standing aside minding their own business (which still goes under foreplay, part of sexual intercourse). Europe took the dick, Yugoslavia didn't want at first, but after they got beaten rape never stopped. Ukraine decided to fight the big guy and expect another big guy to aid them, beating the shit out of the dude bullying them. That isn't going to happen. Economic sanctions are the only measure west will ever support and that measure will lessen when global crisis hits the shores of the western world.

It's easy for the likes of Teeth and Nessaj to preach democracy, independence and freedom of choice. But they don't live in a misplaced country, surrounded by conflicted powers, basically in a sandwich between mean and meaner. Ukraine, Poland and Yugoslavia are those kind. Countries that were in war more than not, mostly because their shitty geopolitical location.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 09:50:50 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on March 18, 2014, 08:59:29 pm
Democratic government? Since when? You did read that Ukraine is among the top 3 most corrupted nations on Earth.
Saying Ukraine had a democratic government is like saying Putin was elected democratically, how many percentages above 100% was it again? ...

The EU treaty was fine, maybe you were just worried about Tymoshenko's foreign medical check which was the only ultimatum; plus NATO would have been perfect for Ukraine, they should have joined when they gave up their arsenal, but hey that's why they got this treaty:

If you wan't talk to about something undemocratic, then try and read about the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/)

Which parts of those did Russia honor? Yeah, none. If Ukraine have still had their arsenal none of this would have happened.

This whole thing is beyond stupidity, all that this entails and implies for the future is bad..

I know this treaty, but the counterpart was : do not join NATO....

Corrupted or not, I'm not sure he had not the support of the majority of his country. Riots is not a proof he was rejected by the majority of Ukrainians. It's the same problem with islamists in arab countries : they try to usurp any popular revolution, but they are infiltrated by Saoudis or qataris (western allies).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 18, 2014, 09:54:51 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 07:36:16 pm
Oh they are scary, very scary. Saying they aren't scary is an insult to all those people who died during WWII, few years before and after. When communists narrowly defeated fascists, they did everything in their power to exterminate that idea (by killing people among other measures).

What we have now is also quite scary. Communism collapsed two decades ago and we already have neo-fascists who wholeheartedly support all those "values" but are hiding direct ties with nazis. Today fascism is a choice, opinion and is cool as long einstein, 88, 14 and nazi svastika aren't associated with it. But those symbols aren't responsible for deaths of millions of people, ideas are. That is why it's okay for Svoboda and Golden Dawn to have an opinion as long that opinion isn't directly connected with einstein and everything he represents.

Just because communism isn't around anymore (which is a good thing), doesn't mean that fascism should be allowed to show up its ugly head again.

Ukraine is the first European country that gave power to fascists after many years. Next country to do so will be Greece. That must be stopped. These new generations seem to be very fond of fascism.

If you count Russia as european, much earlier than that. I'm getting tired of explaining how much more fascist than any other country involved Russia is, and the ridiculous irony of their propaganda considering that.
But I understand why they use those symbols, "chocolate chip cookie", as if ukrainians were on the point of ethnically cleansing russians out of the country. It's because all of the countries on the european border of Russia chose to side with the only counterbalance to the gigantic imperial nation that had been fucking them up the ass for centuries, and had recently become even more expansionist do to a universalist ideology. That some factions in Finland, the baltic countries, Romania, Ukraine, etc sided with the chocolate chip cookies had much more to do with geopolitical balance than any racial ideology. The ukrainians have always identified as slavs, for fuck's sake. They weren't somehow uberslavs in the chocolate chip cookie racial hierarchy, they counted as much as any other ethnic russian. And as another example there were highly placed and decorated jewish fins during the war.
So following WW2 there was implemented a policy of "russification", a deliberate attempt to completely erase these cultures and languages, by assimilation and elimination of all intelligentsia, and anyone fighting against these policies in those countries was automatically tarred as a "chocolate chip cookie" sympathizer, because of the recent history. Nationalism was inextricably linked to chocolate chip cookie ideology in soviet parlance for these countries, and it's propaganda effectiveness has obviously been transferred rather easily to the russian Federation. So much so that despite peaceful coexistence for decades all it took was a few weeks of blaring repeatedly that ZOMG the chocolate chip cookies are back in Ukraine and about to genocide all slavs!!1!!, some masturbating about Glorious Red Army and the Great Patriotic War, and presto. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:00:40 pm
Well, ok, fascism is a plague in every country from the old soviet bloc. What do you want to prove ? That Russia is as bad as Ukraine ? But US imperialism is not better.
So, now everybody should just try to find an issue to a possible war. Talking about WW2 is pointless.
Does Ukrainians really want to fight for Crimea ? Is it a question of honor or something like that ? They just cannot imagine than Crimean chose to join Russia ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 18, 2014, 10:05:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:00:40 pm
They just cannot imagine than Crimean chose to join Russia ?

Chose??? don't make me laugh.

Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:00:40 pm
Does Ukrainians really want to fight for Crimea ? Is it a question of honor or something like that ?

If russians would try to take away even pinch of polish soil I'd be all for shooting the hell out of them. Without my participation ofc, cause I'd rather stay in my home, watching war in tv :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:25:33 pm
But it's not a game here.

Be honest. Does Russia threathened Europe ? Why NATO does exist ? Why expand to the East ? Why deploy anti-missiles system at russian border ?
Iran, China or Russia are constantly surrounded by US armada. That's Brzezinsky's strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski).
Their only justification is : "We are the good guys" (Soft Power strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power))
 Don't be surprised if they respond.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rumblood on March 18, 2014, 10:46:12 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:25:33 pm
But it's not a game here.

Be honest. Does Russia threathened Europe ? Why NATO does exist ? Why expand to the East ? Why deploy anti-missiles system at russian border ?
Iran, China or Russia are constantly surrounded by US armada. That's Brzezinsky's strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski).
Their only justification is : "We are the good guys" (Soft Power strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power))
 Don't be surprised if they respond.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2014, 11:06:17 pm

dat party tho
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 18, 2014, 11:23:47 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 11:06:17 pm

dat party tho

Crimea is Russia!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 11:36:52 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 18, 2014, 09:54:51 pm
If you count Russia as european, much earlier than that.

No, I don't. Probably not how most people perceive it, but I don't consider Russia or Turkey as European countries.

Also, I'm talking about small scale fascism not about genocide. For example, Brice Taton wasn't killed by random houligans. He was killed by members of smaller fascist organization. Many organizations like that exist in Belgrade, they are all involved in criminal activities and were sponsored by the state and still are. That is possible because Serbia is heavily corrupted country just like Ukraine. There won't be large scale genocide in Ukraine, but many fascist groups will kill people on daily basis and won't be prosecuted for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 18, 2014, 11:38:49 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 11:06:17 pm

Omg dat guy is still alive after 14 reports of dubious objectivity? You mean they dont burn reporters from american journalism group in Russia controlled territory?  :P

All of those were interesting to watch though, just funny after some post a few days back to see he is still alive and well  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2014, 11:45:09 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 18, 2014, 10:05:44 pm
If russians would try to take away even pinch of polish soil I'd be all for shooting the hell out of them. Without my participation ofc, cause I'd rather stay in my home, watching war in tv :P

I know you meant it as a joke but, when war starts in one country it spreads like a fire. Sooner or later you'll be involved in it, one way or another. Only way to avoid it is to become a refugee.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 19, 2014, 12:07:02 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:00:40 pm
Well, ok, fascism is a plague in every country from the old soviet bloc. What do you want to prove ? That Russia is as bad as Ukraine ? But US imperialism is not better.
Dat reading comprehension. :lol:
It's like you attempted to read Oberyn's post, only understood a couple of keywords ("fascism", "soviet bloc") and are now trying to put this into your warped perspective of whatever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 19, 2014, 12:16:15 am
Quote from: Butan on March 18, 2014, 11:38:49 pm
Omg dat guy is still alive after 14 reports of dubious objectivity? You mean they dont burn reporters from american journalism group in Russia controlled territory?  :P

All of those were interesting to watch though, just funny after some post a few days back to see he is still alive and well  :)
Why dubious objectivity?
I might have missed 1 or 2 of them but as far as I can tell he tries to get every opinion across, isn't trying to steer with his questions and the comments to the shown pictures were obviously less biased than from anything else I've seen.

I'd say he does a pretty good job to be objective.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 19, 2014, 12:17:13 am
Simon Yolostrovsky is da man, so baller
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 19, 2014, 12:33:45 am
Quote from: Molly on March 19, 2014, 12:16:15 am
Why dubious objectivity?
I might have missed 1 or 2 of them but as far as I can tell he tries to get every opinion across, isn't trying to steer with his questions and the comments to the shown pictures were obviously less biased than from anything else I've seen.

I'd say he does a pretty good job to be objective.

I would concede he's the closest I've seen in a pretty long time, gotta give him credit. Still got some things to perfect.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 12:53:04 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 12:57:47 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 12:53:04 am
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Those slavs all look alike

Quote from: Butan on March 19, 2014, 12:33:45 am
I would concede he's the closest I've seen in a pretty long time, gotta give him credit. Still got some things to perfect.

The great thing about Vice is that it's very little commentary and a lot of video footage inside the events, and that footage doesn't really lie now, does it ?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 19, 2014, 01:06:22 am
By very little you mean near constantly? We arent seeing the same vids I think, and anyway I prefer that style of constant commenting-interviewing. Its just that you dont need to be einstein to notice the comments/questions are going in a slightly uni-directional angle  :wink:  Still better than base propaganda that we are fed with by most medias (either pro or anti whatever).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on March 19, 2014, 01:19:33 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 19, 2014, 01:54:02 am
Delete that quick before they come  :shock: :shock: :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 02:00:57 am
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i coup kind of failed though, with a jew guy as president, no change in parliament and no evidence of any ethnical violence going on :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 02:22:36 am
Quote from: KaMiKaZe_JoE on March 18, 2014, 09:07:10 pm
well trained Ruskies

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on March 19, 2014, 02:49:46 am
What a great new release! Just in time:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/281350/?snr=1_4_4__tab-NewReleasesFilteredDLC (http://store.steampowered.com/app/281350/?snr=1_4_4__tab-NewReleasesFilteredDLC)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rumblood on March 19, 2014, 02:56:40 am
Quote from: Xant on March 19, 2014, 02:22:36 am
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He's been watching American black gangsta movies.  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 19, 2014, 06:55:49 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:25:33 pm
But it's not a game here.

Be honest. Does Russia threathened Europe ? Why NATO does exist ? Why expand to the East ? Why deploy anti-missiles system at russian border ?
<...>
1st - Yes, it does. Proven time and time again. Russia is an agressive neighbour, which likes to protect "its compatriots" (however they are defined) or "send in military" to keep order. I have known 50 years too much of this "order". Fuck it  :rolleyes:
2nd - well... to balance the above.
3rd - well... because countries CHOSE to join NATO and its NOT FUCKING RUSSIAN BUSINESS to decide for them.
4th - apart from 1st - if you don't plan on flying here with missiles - why the fuck you care? :) Its a bit like asking - why do journos in war zone tend to wear bulletproof wests? Or why citizens are allowed to keep guns for self defence... again - NOT russiasFUCKING BUSINESS what countries do on their soil with their allies.

Quote from: Chosen1 on March 19, 2014, 01:19:33 am
OMG, really? No need to find that brainwash powder for you, would have zero effect.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 19, 2014, 08:43:07 am
 
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 11:06:17 pm
(click to show/hide)

Yesterday we celebrated the joining  Crimea to the Russia, we rode in cars with flags of Russia and the Crimea, fired in the air and in any Ukrainians on our way, then cut off their head and hung on pegs on the roof of cars.  :evil: Checked their pokets, and from the personal identifiers found out their addresses, burning houses and eating children.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 19, 2014, 09:29:35 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 19, 2014, 08:43:07 am
 
Yesterday we celebrated the joining  Crimea to the Russia, we rode in cars with flags of Russia and the Crimea, fired in the air and in any Ukrainians on our way, then cut off their head and hung on pegs on the roof of cars.  :evil: Checked their pokets, and from the personal identifiers found out their addresses, burning houses and eating children.
Sounds legit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 10:30:24 am
Putin's speech in Engrish:

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889

It somewhat explains Russian point of view.

And if someone missed it, here is a transcript of US diplomants (Deputy Secretary of State and Ambassador to Ukraine) talking over the phone. It paints a pretty clear picture as to who was behind Maidan protest and how US is planning to form Ukrainian Government. It's from BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 19, 2014, 10:46:56 am
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2014, 11:06:17 pm

dat party tho

"I'm a cossack of zaporozhye"

insta recall the most badass letter in human history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks

EDIT: just noticed the guy at party who clearly wants to beat up random people, typical slavs))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 19, 2014, 10:50:58 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 10:30:24 am
Putin's speech in Engrish:

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889

It somewhat explains Russian point of view.

And if someone missed it, here is a transcript of US diplomants (Deputy Secretary of State and Ambassador to Ukraine) talking over the phone. It paints a pretty clear picture as to who was behind Maidan protest and how US is planning to form Ukrainian Government. It's from BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
You know whats funny? If similar shit was released for Yanukovic talking with putler regarding resolving the situation about whole EuroMaidan business - noone would even care, because... well... thats just SO common, that it would not even become news worthy. Now lets do a mental excercise and make an intelligent guess about how many similar talks between puler/Yanu happened.

So 2 big superpowers tried to influence Ukraine and supported/manipulated/managed (pick your poison :) ) their favorites. Which the favorites understood 100%, I dont believe they are Naive. When US failed with the orange revolutions they invaded part of Ukraine and annexed part of its territory after a sham referendum... wait.. no, that didn't happen. US took the pill and went home. Someone else invaded Ukraine...

So yeah... lets keep comparing how US and SU(reborn) handled their defeat in Ukraine. Totally comparable reactions.

Also - my friend in the military told a story that reached him via his channels from one of Crimea bases. Goes basically like this:
Russian commander writes a letter to besieged Ukr soldiers. "Come out, give up or join us. No point in fighting!". Ukrainian officers sent a reply almost instantly "We are almost all russians in here. You should know that russian soldiers never give up." Was damn funny  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 19, 2014, 11:04:57 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 10:30:24 am
Putin's speech in Engrish:

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889

It somewhat explains Russian point of view.

And if someone missed it, here is a transcript of US diplomants (Deputy Secretary of State and Ambassador to Ukraine) talking over the phone. It paints a pretty clear picture as to who was behind Maidan protest and how US is planning to form Ukrainian Government. It's from BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Good thing you didn't take the job as observer when it was offered. Jesus, you're naive! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 11:09:11 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 19, 2014, 10:50:58 am
You know whats funny? If similar shit was released for Yanukovic talking with putler regarding resolving the situation about whole EuroMaidan business - noone would even care, because... well... thats just SO common, that it would not even become news worthy. Now lets do a mental excercise and make an intelligent guess about how many similar talks between puler/Yanu happened.

So 2 big superpowers tried to influence Ukraine and supported/manipulated/managed (pick your poison :) ) their favorites. Which the favorites understood 100%, I dont believe they are Naive. When US failed with the orange revolutions they invaded part of Ukraine and annexed part of its territory after a sham referendum... wait.. no, that didn't happen. US took the pill and went home. Someone else invaded Ukraine...

So yeah... lets keep comparing how US and SU(reborn) handled their defeat in Ukraine. Totally comparable reactions.

Also - my friend in the military told a story that reached him via his channels from one of Crimea bases. Goes basically like this:
Russian commander writes a letter to besieged Ukr soldiers. "Come out, give up or join us. No point in fighting!". Ukrainian officers sent a reply almost instantly "We are almost all russians in here. You should know that russian soldiers never give up." Was damn funny  :lol:

This is all very true. Basically, Ukrainians are fucked, no matter what. They have the worst geostrategical position in the world.

But it was, apparently Americans that tipped the scale first, by attempting to replace elected, although totally corrupted Gov, with their pawns. And no, they did not annex anything (mostly because they can't and they have no interest), but just imagine what their reaction would have been if Russia instigated revolution and installed puppet Government in Mexico, for example. When it happened in Cuba, we almost had WW3, and USA did attempt the invasion (although they got their asses kicked).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 11:13:58 am
Quote from: Molly on March 19, 2014, 11:04:57 am
Good thing you didn't take the job as observer when it was offered. Jesus, you're naive! :rolleyes:

Please elaborate. I've been called many things, but this is the first time someone calls me naive.  :mrgreen:

Being objective means hearing BOTH sides. And, having in mind that they are all full of shit, distinguish parts and bits of truth in what they are saying. Please, enlighten me, where have I made a mistake?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 19, 2014, 11:18:06 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 11:13:58 am
Please elaborate. I've been called many things, but this is the first time someone calls me naive.  :mrgreen:

Being objective means hearing BOTH sides. And, having in mind that they are all full of shit, distinguish parts and bits of truth in what they are saying. Please, enlighten me, where have I made a mistake?
You made a mistake the moment your opinion started to disagree with the western view, you are either a smart man, or a brainwashed soviet according to certain people in this forum. Nice to see an opinion from someone trying to take an intermediate approach to the standard x is bad, y will save the world that reigns around here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 19, 2014, 11:19:34 am
Quote
But it was, apparently Americans that tipped the scale first, by attempting to replace elected, although totally corrupted Gov, with their pawns. And no, they did not annex anything (mostly because they can't and they have no interest), but just imagine what their reaction would have been if Russia instigated revolution and installed puppet Government in Mexico, for example. When it happened in Cuba, we almost had WW3, and USA did attempt the invasion (although they got their asses kicked).

Come on, it is obvious that everyone is protecting their own interests, it is obvious that USA were supporting maidan, just as EU did, they don't hide it. However it would be wrong to say that maidan was started by them that they replaced government by maidan's hands etc..

Quote
And if someone missed it, here is a transcript of US diplomants (Deputy Secretary of State and Ambassador to Ukraine) talking over the phone. It paints a pretty clear picture as to who was behind Maidan protest and how US is planning to form Ukrainian Government.

Does it though?
They were discussing situation as many other people did, nothing more. I don't see how it could mean that
Quote
who was behind Maidan protest and how US is planning to form Ukrainian Government
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 11:26:30 am
Quote from: serr on March 19, 2014, 11:19:34 am
Come on, it is obvious that everyone is protecting their own interests, it is obvious that USA were supporting maidan, just as EU did, they don't hide it. However it would be wrong to say that maidan was started by them that they replaced government by maidan's hands etc..

Does it though?
They were discussing situation as many other people did, nothing more. I don't see how it could mean that

I don't think protests would have succeded without US help.

And to the question does the transcript clarifies things. Yes it does, it does make things rather clear. Here this part especially:

"Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.
Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.
Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work."


Quote from: Moncho on March 19, 2014, 11:18:06 am
You made a mistake the moment your opinion started to disagree with the western view, you are either a smart man, or a brainwashed soviet according to certain people in this forum. Nice to see an opinion from someone trying to take an intermediate approach to the standard x is bad, y will save the world that reigns around here.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 19, 2014, 11:31:55 am
Quote
"Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.
Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.
Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

I understand your point. However, at that time we were discussing situation with my friends in similar way and came to the very same conclusions. Probably with exception that Nuland and Pyatt had some ways of influencing the situation.

Again, yes, it is obvious and it was obvious that USA and EU were influencing situation as well as Russia and if it is surprise for you - I understand why Molly called you naive.
However it doesn't mean that maidan was organized by USA and that new government is USA's puppets.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 11:42:22 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 10:30:24 am
Putin's speech in Engrish:

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889

It somewhat explains Russian point of view.

It explains Putler TV's point of view, which is also that the Judeo-Masonic Gay NATO Navisitors can't see pics , please register or login
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i Illuminati NWO interests are at stake here. Please. And check on "But USA is doing it too :(".

What Putin fails to address here is that he forcibly sent his military to invade Crimea, then this "referendum" took place. There were no shot fired simply because the Ukrainians did not shoot back. Had the first Russians arriving there been met with bullets, like they would have had Ukraine not been right in the middle of a political crisis, things would have gotten very ugly, very fast.

I'm not really convinced the end result of the referendum would have been any different (except in numbers, probably) if it had been done properly, though. Scotland and Catalonia don't need a big bear to tell them they want out. Still, we will never know now.

Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 10:30:24 am
And if someone missed it, here is a transcript of US diplomants (Deputy Secretary of State and Ambassador to Ukraine) talking over the phone. It paints a pretty clear picture as to who was behind Maidan protest and how US is planning to form Ukrainian Government. It's from BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Where does it say they took any part in Maidan ? They didn't. They supported it after it started getting real.

And yes, pretty much everyone takes part in forming an interim government, as advisors and as lobbies. Should I remind you that elections will take place in May ?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 11:50:49 am
I didn't think Maidan was organized by USA. They just used the opportunity, but they did do a lot to help protests succeed. And about the Government not being a puppet. Do you think Ukrainian Gov can make any important decision now without consulting US Ambassador or State Secretary? I doubt it very much. FFS, Yats is Prime Minister now, and Klitsch is not in the Gov. Just as they said.

Let's see what happens after the elections.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 19, 2014, 11:51:25 am
Quote
And yes, pretty much everyone takes part in forming an interim government, as advisors and as lobbies.

Small correction, that talk took place long before maindan won. It was on 25th January when Yanukovich offered Yatseniuk to become prime-minister without reforming government and without Yanukovich's resignation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 19, 2014, 11:55:00 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 11:50:49 am
FFS, Yats is Prime Minister now, and Klitsch is not in the Gov. Just as they said.

That's because Yats is the most experienced among opposition(except probably Poroshenko) and Kitsch has no experience at all, he has no place in government. So yes, just as they said.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 19, 2014, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 19, 2014, 10:50:58 am
You know whats funny? If similar shit was released for Yanukovic talking with putler regarding resolving the situation about whole EuroMaidan business - noone would even care, because... well... thats just SO common, that it would not even become news worthy. Now lets do a mental excercise and make an intelligent guess about how many similar talks between puler/Yanu happened.

So 2 big superpowers tried to influence Ukraine and supported/manipulated/managed (pick your poison :) ) their favorites. Which the favorites understood 100%, I dont believe they are Naive. When US failed with the orange revolutions they invaded part of Ukraine and annexed part of its territory after a sham referendum... wait.. no, that didn't happen. US took the pill and went home. Someone else invaded Ukraine...

So yeah... lets keep comparing how US and SU(reborn) handled their defeat in Ukraine. Totally comparable reactions.

Also - my friend in the military told a story that reached him via his channels from one of Crimea bases. Goes basically like this:
Russian commander writes a letter to besieged Ukr soldiers. "Come out, give up or join us. No point in fighting!". Ukrainian officers sent a reply almost instantly "We are almost all russians in here. You should know that russian soldiers never give up." Was damn funny  :lol:
brainwashed eu scumm

he give u links
and U back only shittalks  :?

Also - my friend in the military told a story that reached him via his channels.....
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 12:03:49 pm
Quote from: Vibe on March 19, 2014, 10:46:56 am
insta recall the most badass letter in human history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks

wronk

After invading Greece and receiving the submission of other key city-states, Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I win this war, you will be slaves forever." In another version, he warned: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city." According to both accounts, the Spartan ephors replied with one word: "If" (αἴκα).[19] Subsequently neither Philip nor Alexander attempted to capture the city.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 19, 2014, 12:10:22 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 19, 2014, 12:03:49 pm
wronk

After invading Greece and receiving the submission of other key city-states, Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I win this war, you will be slaves forever." In another version, he warned: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city." According to both accounts, the Spartan ephors replied with one word: "If" (αἴκα).[19] Subsequently neither Philip nor Alexander attempted to capture the city.
I think you've read this story on a pack of cornflakes this morning  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 12:38:41 pm
No, only Russians learn history that way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 12:44:43 pm
In Soviet Crimea referendum votes you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 19, 2014, 01:04:16 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 11:09:11 am
This is all very true. Basically, Ukrainians are fucked, no matter what. They have the worst geostrategical position in the world.

But it was, apparently Americans that tipped the scale first, by attempting to replace elected, although totally corrupted Gov, with their pawns. And no, they did not annex anything (mostly because they can't and they have no interest), but just imagine what their reaction would have been if Russia instigated revolution and installed puppet Government in Mexico, for example. When it happened in Cuba, we almost had WW3, and USA did attempt the invasion (although they got their asses kicked).

I dont disagree with any sentiments here but: USA did not try to invade Cuba: the CIA tried to invade cuba.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 19, 2014, 01:12:48 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 19, 2014, 12:03:28 pm
brainwashed eu scumm

he give u links
and U back only shittalks  :?

Also - my friend in the military told a story that reached him via his channels.....
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Links... lets see - to a russian propaganda site and an (relatively) old article (content of which I did not deny btw :) )  Yeah, I shit talk, join the club  :mrgreen:

The point is - if you are weak and want to push through your agenda - you look for allies. One can ally with russias putler (one HELLUVA ally that guy is, backstabing his neighbours) or you can ally with USA, knowing full well their intentions, because they leak though and through... Yanukovic chose putler, Maidan had to choose west... Its just that the reaction to failure in this particular case was seriously fucked up from putler :)

And its not about a source of that story, its about the content of it...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 01:13:54 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on March 19, 2014, 01:04:16 pm
I dont disagree with any sentiments here but: USA did not try to invade Cuba: the CIA tried to invade cuba.

Ok, so Russia did not try to invade Crimea, FSB invaded Crimea.

Quote from: Kuujis on March 19, 2014, 01:12:48 pm
Links... lets see - to a russian propaganda site and an (relatively) old article (content of which I did not deny btw :) )  Yeah, I shit talk, join the club  :mrgreen:


Dude, I don't care its Russian propaganda site, the speech is there. And the speech is correct, word by word. And Vovka is trolling you, and you don't even realise that. Conclusion: You = stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 01:16:25 pm
Quote from: Corwin on March 19, 2014, 01:13:54 pm
Ok, so Russia did not try to invade Crimea, FSB invaded Crimea.
Apples to oranges.

Those are not FSB men on the streets in Crimea. They are Russian soldiers.

If it had been USA invading Cuba, as opposed to a single American organization, Cuba would not have stood a chance. American soldiers did not invade Cuba.

If FSB had put together an all-Ukrainian militia that now controlled Crimea, with no support from Russia, then it would be a good comparison. But alas, that is not the reality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 19, 2014, 02:07:35 pm
I'm glad to be joined by some brainwashed pro-russian scum on this topic  :mrgreen:


Whether Maidan was started/supported/controlled by outer forces, fact is that the people chose to overthrow the government, whether pushed badly or not.
The same is true for Crimean people, even if the results of the referendum were positively rigged, dont tell me that the people cheering in the streets of Crimea are mind-controlled and only represent the minority, and that people at Maidan were free men that represented the majority.
Maybe after everyone have conceded those 2 points (both coup/protest/revolt/whatever of Maidan and Simferopol are as illegitimate/legitimate/whatever as the other) we can start talking of more debatable topics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 19, 2014, 03:01:58 pm
The problem is that with this move the good old land grab becomes a viable option again on the world stage. It's a can of worms. On the other hand it's certainly time to protect those German citizens on Mallorca with Anschluss.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 03:20:09 pm
When it exactly stopped to be an option?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 19, 2014, 03:26:28 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 19, 2014, 03:01:58 pm
The problem is that with this move the good old land grab becomes a viable option again on the world stage. It's a can of worms. On the other hand it's certainly time to protect those German citizens on Mallorca with Anschluss.
Germans on Mallorca are not oppressed but Turks in Germany can see things otherwise :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 19, 2014, 03:52:58 pm
Quote from: Piok on March 19, 2014, 03:26:28 pm
Germans on Mallorca are not oppressed but Turks in Germany can see things otherwise :twisted:

they are, those mouldy brits always remove the towels.
and we oppressed turks here, they have to work to earn their money :P .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Franke on March 19, 2014, 04:04:22 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 19, 2014, 03:52:58 pm
they are, those mouldy brits always remove the towels.
I wouldn't call it oppression, it's more like a proxy war between GB and Germany
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 04:15:14 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 03:20:09 pm
When it exactly stopped to be an option?

When the international community started taking substance, I guess.

Quote from: Butan on March 19, 2014, 02:07:35 pm
Whether Maidan was started/supported/controlled by outer forces, fact is that the people chose to overthrow the government, whether pushed badly or not.
The same is true for Crimean people, even if the results of the referendum were positively rigged, dont tell me that the people cheering in the streets of Crimea are mind-controlled and only represent the minority, and that people at Maidan were free men that represented the majority.
Maybe after everyone have conceded those 2 points (both coup/protest/revolt/whatever of Maidan and Simferopol are as illegitimate/legitimate/whatever as the other) we can start talking of more debatable topics.

The thing is, they are incomparable in nature. EuroMaidan ousted Yanukovich illegally, however this happened quite peacefully relative to this kind of event and what it usually causes. It was definitely not a coup and not a revolution either, as the parliament did not change.

Now, I believe the unilateral referendum in Crimea is legitimate if you completely forget about russian soldiers invading it beforehand for a completely warped up reason ("WMD in Irak"-style, should I add) and infecting the population of another country with russian propaganda.

So no, conceding that those two things are "as legitimate/illegitimate as each other" is not the start of a healthy debate. As I said before, just because one recognises two sides to an argument doesn't mean they are equal or that the truth is in between.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 19, 2014, 04:29:59 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 19, 2014, 04:31:59 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 19, 2014, 02:07:35 pm
I'm glad to be joined by some brainwashed pro-russian scum on this topic  :mrgreen:
Butan became some kind of martyr now and we are all "USA... USA..."-chanting western noobs for not being able/willing to "look through the veil of multinational US dictated power surge".  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 04:59:29 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 19, 2014, 04:29:59 pm
(click to show/hide)

yeah, one more low-educated whore who can't even speak proper Russian. Nothing new, a lot of such shit in Russian judgement system.


She loves social networks.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 05:05:43 pm
luv dat "well\low - educated person" from the man who is standing for democrative system. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 19, 2014, 05:26:53 pm
The Japanese apparently love her..

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 19, 2014, 05:28:25 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 04:59:29 pm
yeah, one more low-educated whore who can't even speak proper Russian. Nothing new, a lot of such shit in Russian judgement system.


visitors can't see pics , please register or login

But it's our problem.  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:12:39 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 19, 2014, 02:07:35 pm
Whether Maidan was started/supported/controlled by outer forces, fact is that the people chose to overthrow the government, whether pushed badly or not.
The same is true for Crimean people

THe difference is that in the first case there was no western troops in Kiev.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 04:59:29 pm
yeah, one more low-educated whore who can't even speak proper Russian. Nothing new, a lot of such shit in Russian judgement system.
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 05:05:43 pm
luv dat "well\low - educated person" from the man who is standing for democrative system.

For the first time I have to agree with Dark Blade, why does it matter how well she's educated? Lack of acadamic titles doesn't mean that her opinion is worthless. And the opposite, academic degrees don't make your opinion valid. Shitty trick.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on March 19, 2014, 06:19:02 pm
sry if repost

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 06:23:36 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:12:39 pm
For the first time I have to agree with Dark Blade, why does it matter how well she's educated? Lack of acadamic titles doesn't mean that her opinion is worthless. And the opposite, academic degrees don't make your opinion valid. Shitty trick.

Education tends to bring critical thinking and knowledge, which does help formulate better opinions.

Anyways, rather her than Ashton.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:36:55 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 06:23:36 pm
Education tends to bring critical thinking and knowledge, which does help formulate better opinions.

doesn't mean that opinion of "low-educated whore" is worth less than someones with academic title. In the end opinion in itself should be judged, not the one who voice it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 19, 2014, 06:38:52 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 19, 2014, 04:29:59 pm
(click to show/hide)

Totally fuckable. Also Ukraine is now Russian territory.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 19, 2014, 06:41:09 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on March 19, 2014, 05:26:53 pm
The Japanese apparently love her..

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no nose :/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 19, 2014, 06:42:58 pm
Quote from: Sniger on March 19, 2014, 06:19:02 pm
sry if repost

(click to show/hide)
polite pillagers?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 06:46:18 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:12:39 pm
For the first time I have to agree with Dark Blade, why does it matter how well she's educated? Lack of acadamic titles doesn't mean that her opinion is worthless. And the opposite, academic degrees don't make your opinion valid. Shitty trick.

What are you talking about? What opinions? This madam became a god damn procurator of the whole Crimean region (illegally though). What kind of academic titles are you speaking about? It doesn't require any titles to speak proper language. It just shows how intelligent you are. We already had a dumbfuck president Yanukovich with his "academic degrees" (according to him he was a proFFesor). It should be completely intolerant to have such inbred judges and procurators. It's not any better than having surgeons who don't have a slight idea of what they're doing. If you could pass school, all the exams, uni and you still didn't manage to learn how to speak/write then you're a dumbfuck and you should have no places on such high government positions.

Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:36:55 pm
doesn't mean that opinion of "low-educated whore" is worth less than someones with academic title. In the end opinion in itself should be judged, not the one who voice it.

What opinion are you talking about?

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 05:05:43 pm
luv dat "well\low - educated person" from the man who is standing for democrative system.

How does it define my education? I have 2 educations: one from Academy and one from University, both graduated with excellence. Tell me more about my education when you have one at least.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Strudog on March 19, 2014, 06:49:32 pm
all in all it will be Russia losing out, they may gain the Crimean territory but will lose any association it had with Ukraine. i don't think Russia will be happy to have a Ukraine that is allied to the West.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:56:41 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 06:46:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

You understand nothing.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 06:46:18 pm
How does it define my education? I have 2 educations: one from Academy and one from University, both graduated with excellence. Tell me more about my education when you have one at least.

It doesn't? cause he didn't say anything about your education? And if you bring your "graduated with excellence educations" as an argument... dat makes me lol.

Btw, there's always someone better educated than you, keep that in mind when you next want to talk about your education.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:03:40 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:56:41 pm
You understand nothing.

It doesn't? cause he didn't say anything about your education? And if you bring your "graduated with excellence educations" as an argument... dat makes me lol.

Oh my god. Falka, can you just read the text? :rolleyes: Or do you need an additional explanation? Where did you read that I said that her opinion is wrong or right? Where did I discuss her opinion at all? And what opinion in the end? That video is just a briefing where she stands for Crimean Attorney General (procurator), during such briefings they don't explain their own opinions at all. I've just said that she's a low-educated whore. Why can't we call things with their names? Yanukovich was dumb, George Bush was dumb and this madam is low-educated. Dark Blade just threw shit towards my education just for my opinion (because he thinks that all those people who support democracy have doubtful education). Does it require a lot of brain to understand?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 07:08:46 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 06:36:55 pm
doesn't mean that opinion of "low-educated whore" is worth less than someones with academic title. In the end opinion in itself should be judged, not the one who voice it.

That depends on the question being asked. On the topic of the origin of the universe, I'd much rather ask someone with a degree in astrophysics than my neighbors, if I can't hear both.

Anyways I believe that what Dark Blade wanted to say is that being elitist with respect to education is undemocratic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 19, 2014, 07:12:16 pm
Quote
Dark Blade just threw shit towards my education just for my opinion (because he thinks that all those people who support democracy have doubtful education).

Not going to comment anything else, but he didn't say anything about your education.

Quote
Anyways I believe that what Dark Blade wanted to say is that being elitist with respect to education is undemocratic.
This is how I understood that as well
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SixThumbs on March 19, 2014, 07:13:41 pm
There's also a difference between being dumb and playing the fool. I doubt people getting into such high positions of authority are really "dumb".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:16:15 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 07:08:46 pm
That depends on the question being asked. On the topic of the origin of the universe, I'd much rather ask someone with a degree in astrophysics than my neighbors, if I can't hear both.

Anyways I believe that what Dark Blade wanted to say is that being elitist with respect to education is undemocratic.

Yes, I've read it wrong because Dark Blade was referring to something that I didn't say. Anyway it makes no sense. If she was just a random woman from the streets - who cares about her education or intelligence? She has the same right for her opinion like everyone else. I didn't discuss any opinions at all. I wanted to say that it's completely wrong when you have such people on such important places. It's a fatal mistake to let dumb people decide someone's destiny.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 19, 2014, 07:17:38 pm
Quote from: SixThumbs on March 19, 2014, 07:13:41 pm
There's also a difference between being dumb and playing the fool. I doubt people getting into such high positions of authority are really "dumb".

Good point, however amount of mistakes Yanukovich made in last 4 months tells us that he is either dumb or it was someone's else clever plan he played his part in.
So is he dumb or not totally depends on if you are conspirology fan or not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 07:21:16 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:03:40 pm
Dark Blade just threw shit towards my education just for my opinion (because he thinks that all those people who support democracy have doubtful education). Does it require a lot of brain to understand?

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 05:05:43 pm
luv dat "well\low - educated person" from the man who is standing for democrative system. 

Where exactly he refers to your education?

Quote from: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 07:08:46 pm
That depends on the question being asked. On the topic of the origin of the universe, I'd much rather ask someone with a degree in astrophysics than my neighbors, if I can't hear both.

Around polish supreme court there're columns with written sentences.
(click to show/hide)

One of them says (more or less): you shall base your opinion on your own thinking, not previous judgements or authorities.

As a general rule ofc you're right, I just say that being low-educated a priori doesn't make someones opinion worthless. That's why using this term pejoratively in discussion is pretty fucking stupid in my eyes.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 07:22:24 pm
Kafein
not just with respect to educated person but without respect to low-educated person is undemocratic.
I can understand it but experience says that in coversations like this one - only specific education makes your opinion realy competent. like juridical and economical education. maybe historical at some point.
for everything and everyone else - this.
Quote
Lack of acadamic titles doesn't mean that her opinion is worthless. And the opposite, academic degrees don't make your opinion valid. Shitty trick.


if we are democratic community let's be tolerant especially if you prefer democracy. otherwise you are contradicting yourself
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 19, 2014, 07:27:10 pm
Dark Blade, noone says that educated person is better that uneducated one. In most cases I don't care about education of people.

But uneducated president or state prosecutor is terrible and may end up very bad. Don't really know anything about her education though.

And it has nothing to do with democracy, rather with common sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 07:29:19 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 07:08:46 pm
Anyways I believe that what Dark Blade wanted to say is that being elitist prick with lack of respect to those who have no formal education is undemocratic.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:30:44 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 07:21:16 pm
Where exactly he refers to your education?

I took it that way because otherwise it would refer to something irrelevant. How do you understand that if you don't connect it to my previous post?

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 07:22:24 pm
Kafein
not just with respect to educated person but without respect to low-educated person is undemocratic.
I can understand it but experience says that in coversations like this one - only specific education makes your opinion realy competent. like juridical and economical education. maybe historical at some point.
for everything and everyone else - this.
if we are democratic community let's be tolerant especially if you prefer democracy. otherwise you are contradicting yourself

I think that you lose a track of what is democracy. I don't and I didn't speak about opinions. I only spoke about competence of people taking important positions, partially about current Crimean Attorney General. It has nothing to do with democracy or with anything else. It's not undemocratic if you can't get to University because you lack intelligence or education. Same thing here: if you're not good enough for this position - you should not get it. I never brag with my diplomas (this was the first time here, because I misunderstood your text, I'm sorry for that, I just got pissed with its audacity which wasn't meant to be there), everyone's opinion has a right to exist and I don't say "fuck off, I won't listen to you because you didn't graduate from 5 Universities".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 07:43:15 pm
well I know that its wrong to say, but I am actually talking about you.
not once i've seen some your phrases like "... as well-educated person says [enter the subject that you like]."
and "low-educated people [enter the subject that you dislike]."
I wont get quotes because this topic is so big but you know what I am talking about.
you can think about people with different education whatever you want but by the democracy - their opinion is not worse than your even if you find it wrong.  even when its complitely stupid. 
I think everyone cant agree with it same like I am but for me it means that real democracy(at social sphere) is a myth. usually people are authoritar in their beliefs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 07:45:50 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:30:44 pm
if you can't get to University because you lack intelligence or education.


Meh, dunno how to use this "copy url at current time", 3:15 anyway.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:16:15 pm
Yes, I've read it wrong
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:03:40 pm
Does it require a lot of brain to understand?

Yup, looks like it does.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:04:06 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 07:45:50 pm
Meh, dunno how to use this "copy url at current time", 3:15 anyway.

Yup, looks like it does.

I've read it wrong because he referred it wrong, also I have said sorry to him already. Same as you did. Okay, that movie is good. Now tell me, will you go to a surgeon who barely finished uni or will you be happy at a court with a judge who bought his diploma? You live in a different reality than in Ukraine. Here, in Ukraine, it's a huge problem with education because you can buy any diploma you want. Especially in Law Academies and Economical faculties. You just pay money for exams and don't visit your alma mater.

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 07:43:15 pm
well I know that its wrong to say, but I am actually talking about you.
not once i've seen some your phrases like "... as well-educated person says [enter the subject that you like]."
and "low-educated people [enter the subject that you dislike]."
I wont get quotes because this topic is so big but you know what I am talking about.
you can think about people with different education whatever you want but by the democracy - their opinion is not worse than your even if you find it wrong.  even when its complitely stupid. 
I think everyone cant agree with it same like I am but for me it means that real democracy(at social sphere) is a myth. usually people are authoritar in their beliefs.

If I said so then I considered such people that much educated. There are a lot of people who have the opposite opinion to mine while having good or better education than me. How come you get this connected to my words? You better get quotes because I don't consider all people with different opinions as low-educated people. It would be dumb and super self-confident.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 19, 2014, 08:05:00 pm
Quote from: Sniger on March 19, 2014, 06:19:02 pm
(click to show/hide)


Subtitle of the pic from Kiev TV : Evil nazi pillager russian troops considering eating food which doesnt include babies to change their commie diet, ends with the death of 13 people including storekeeper


Subtitle of the pic from RT news : Self defense militia for the protection of the people on patrol duty for the stability of the crimean peninsula, overpay 500 000 rubles for a pound of cheese to help rebuild the local economy


Subtitle of the pic from VICE NEWS: Soldiers are going to buy food then eat it.



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 08:09:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:04:06 pm
Same as you did.

Nope, I didn't.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 08:09:36 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 19, 2014, 06:38:52 pm
Totally fuckable. Also Ukraine is now Russian territory.

Reminds me of Catherine Bell from JAG.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:12:03 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 08:09:17 pm
Nope, I didn't.

Then explain where you found me discussing her opinion. I asked for it a couple of times already. I'm not afraid to explain why I say this or that and accept that I was wrong. Why should you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 08:16:04 pm
Dave, I am not interested in this topic that much for it.
10-20 pages ago was almost litterally the phrase "... as well-educated person  *something that you like*".
and your explanation to the word "bydlo"... as you said it a low-educated person. I'll not get a quote cuz it was about 60-80 pages ago.
the thing is most of "bydlos" are low-educated people. but that doesnt means that low-educated people are "bydlos".
I am not sure that people in this topic got the difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 08:16:31 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 07:22:24 pm

if we are democratic community let's be tolerant especially if you prefer democracy. otherwise you are contradicting yourself
Being tolerant of others on an internet forum has NOTHING to do with preferring democracy as a form of government. Nothing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 19, 2014, 08:18:15 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 19, 2014, 08:16:31 pm
Being tolerant of others on an internet forum has NOTHING to do with preferring democracy as a form of government. Nothing.

Thats the reason you still exist  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 08:19:24 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 19, 2014, 08:18:15 pm
Thats the reason you still exist  :lol:
That's the reason your mother still exists.  :lol: :mrgreen: :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 08:19:30 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 07:03:40 pm
because he thinks that all those people who support democracy have doubtful education

And he would be right about that. Educated people should support demarchy because it makes more sense than ancient Greek invention called democracy. How can a educated person believe in a voting system where a person who have no formal education and can barely sign his name, is equal with high educated scientist?

Just try to imagine a situation where your university degree depends on opinion of everyone who is attending same university, rather than just a few selected individuals called professors. Sounds mad, isn't it? Well, that's democracy for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:24:32 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 08:16:04 pm
Dave, I am not interested in this topic that much for it.
10-20 pages ago was almost litterally the phrase "... as well-educated person  *something that you like*".
and your explanation to the word "bydlo"... as you said it a low-educated person. I'll not get a quote cuz it was about 60-80 pages ago.
the thing is most of "bydlos" are low-educated people. but that doesnt means that low-educated people are "bydlos".
I am not sure that people in this topic got the difference.

I don't think I explained the word bydlo like that in this topic. Bydlo is not just an uneducated person. All bydlos are low-educated though, it's just an image of a person who lacks a lot: education, intelligence, manners and kindness in general.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 08:25:44 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:12:03 pm
Then explain where you found me discussing her opinion.

Nowhere? cause I didn't find it at all?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 08:29:48 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 19, 2014, 08:16:31 pm
Being tolerant of others on an internet forum has NOTHING to do with preferring democracy as a form of government. Nothing.
what does this form of government worth if people are following it only at official actions?
yes, its actually enough but "good" and "enough" are different marks.

well I am falling into sophistry so better I leave this conversattion  :rolleyes:

add:
well Dave you did it so. ofc thats not exactlly what did you meant to say but it was so.
(click to show/hide)
// sorry if I am wrong but for now I am sure that I remember it right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 08:33:20 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 08:19:30 pm
And he would be right about that. Educated people should support demarchy because it makes more sense than ancient Greek invention called democracy. How can a educated person believe in a voting system where a person who have no formal education and can barely sign his name, is equal with high educated scientist?
Because that person without formal education is a human being too, being dumber does not make him less so, and hence is allowed to have a say in his own fate just as much as the one who is an educated scientist. Yours is a common complaint, yet it makes no sense. Democracy is not an engineering project where everything must be done according to strict mathematical laws or else, it is a form of government. It doesn't matter how stupid or intelligent someone is, their human value is the same and both have feelings and opinions. The whole point of democracy is the that the people themselves decide how they are ruled; if 51% of the nation think they'd rather not join NATO even if it gets them killed, then so be it, it is the decision of the majority of the people who'll be influenced by said decision. Or, less dramatically, if they decide that they'd rather not have free healthcare, then that is the wish of the people. Intelligence does not come into play.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 08:35:47 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 07:22:24 pm
Kafein
not just with respect to educated person but without respect to low-educated person is undemocratic.

Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 07:29:19 pm
Fixed that for you.

I may be wrong, but I don't think you understood what "with respect to" was supposed to mean in my sentence. The meaning was purely saying that discriminating based on education is undemocratic. My sentence had nothing to do whatsoever with respect. I hope this cleared that up.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:39:14 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 08:25:44 pm
Nowhere? cause I didn't find it at all?

Why did you start discussing it then? What does this post and the following mean? What trick did you mean then?

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 08:29:48 pm
well Dave you did it so. ofc thats not exactlly what did you meant to say but it was so.
(click to show/hide)

I've just looked through my posts and found my explanation of the word "bydlo" in a post made a month ago. What is wrong with this explanation?
(click to show/hide)

 Also about the text in Russian, I've mentioned this problem today about corruption in our education system. That's why I called that woman low-educated, she has a diploma but has no education.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 08:44:39 pm
ah then maybe I remember it because you said bydlo in one row with low-educated people and working class when you was counting the people who vote for Yanukovich.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:47:35 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 08:44:39 pm
ah then maybe I remember it because you said bydlo in one row with low-educated people and working class when you was counting the people who vote for Yanukovich.

So wasn't I right? I didn't say that only bydlo voted for him, but it was his main electorate though. And I can do nothing with that, their vote counts in the same way as mine.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 08:56:17 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 19, 2014, 08:35:47 pm
I may be wrong

But probably you're right.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:39:14 pm
Why did you start discussing it then? What does this post and the following mean? What trick did you mean then?

If you don't know what I meant by that, then I'm afraid I can not help you.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:24:32 pm
Bydlo is not just an uneducated person. All bydlos are low-educated though, it's just an image of a person who lacks a lot: education, intelligence, manners and kindness in general.
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 08:47:35 pm
I didn't say that only bydlo voted for him, but it was his main electorate though. And I can do nothing with that, their vote counts in the same way as mine.

Definitely I don't like your attitude.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 19, 2014, 09:02:15 pm
damn I just missed your addition. everything in spoiler is pointless then
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 09:05:51 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 19, 2014, 08:33:20 pm
Because that person without formal education is a human being too, being dumber does not make him less so, and hence is allowed to have a say in his own fate just as much as the one who is an educated scientist. Yours is a common complaint, yet it makes no sense. Democracy is not an engineering project where everything must be done according to strict mathematical laws or else, it is a form of government. It doesn't matter how stupid or intelligent someone is, their human value is the same and both have feelings and opinions. The whole point of democracy is the that the people themselves decide how they are ruled; if 51% of the nation think they'd rather not join NATO even if it gets them killed, then so be it, it is the decision of the majority of the people who'll be influenced by said decision. Or, less dramatically, if they decide that they'd rather not have free healthcare, then that is the wish of the people. Intelligence does not come into play.

You sound like a politician, bunch of misplaced words packed together to make it seem smart and convicting. No substance at all in those word, typical populist propaganda.

You know Xant, your only advantage over some of us is your knowledge of english language. Sadly, mine is not good enough to be able to discuss serious topics with you so I rather stay at bay most of the time because I don't want to be ridiculed for my lack of vocabulary and poor grammar, rather than focusing on actual substance and message that stands behind those broken english sentences.

If you think democracy works well, how come most abstinents come from the highly educated group of people and not other way around? Or why don't you ask progressive Turkish youth on this forum what they think about democracy. Yanukovich was elected on democratic elections, you know. So is Erdogan and the rest of tyrants. They always get elected fair and square first time and with a big margin, which is one of the reason why they later get on a ego trip, thinking how they have became gods. There is a reason why there are limits on number of mandates in most countries which practice democracy.

My opinion, based on what I experienced in my country is that democratic elections are waste of time and tax payers money and that government should work in the same way universities function.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 09:15:54 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 09:05:51 pm
Sadly, mine is not good enough to be able to discuss serious topics with you so I rather stay at bay most of the time because I don't want to be ridiculed for my lack of vocabulary and poor grammar, rather than focusing on actual substance and message that stands behind those broken english sentences.

If your english is broken then I don't even want to think how would you describe mine :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 19, 2014, 09:27:07 pm
Funny how Dave said nothing else than "people shouldn't be in positions that require a certain degree of education while this fine lady isn't even able to speak the language of choice in a proper manner and nonetheless sits there now..." and everyone goes on about some democracy bullshit that doesn't even make sense in the context :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 19, 2014, 09:27:57 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 08:19:30 pm
And he would be right about that. Educated people should support demarchy because it makes more sense than ancient Greek invention called democracy. How can a educated person believe in a voting system where a person who have no formal education and can barely sign his name, is equal with high educated scientist?

Just try to imagine a situation where your university degree depends on opinion of everyone who is attending same university, rather than just a few selected individuals called professors. Sounds mad, isn't it? Well, that's democracy for you.
What the fuck, lol? You got demarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarchy) mixed up with something else, because demarchy is a form of democracy, the original one, invented by the Greeks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 09:31:57 pm
Quote from: Falka on March 19, 2014, 08:56:17 pm
But probably you're right.

If you don't know what I meant by that, then I'm afraid I can not help you.

Definitely I don't like your attitude.

I clearly understand what you meant with that trick. I don't understand how it's connected to me. And you fail to explain only trying to make an evil person out of me, reading it in the way you want to read it. Instead of explaining you only throw insults and claim that I don't understand anything. And what you think is my attitude is not my attitude, you seem like seeing things beyond text that don't exist. Yet you still didn't explain anything after I asked multiple times. This could only mean that you either can't explain it properly or you're "elitist prick with lack of respect" or both.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2014, 09:44:57 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 19, 2014, 09:05:51 pm
You sound like a politician, bunch of misplaced words packed together to make it seem smart and convicting. No substance at all in those word, typical populist propaganda.
So I guess this isn't the "I don't get into Internet debates" personality of yours. That's too bad, if the best you can come up with is "you sound like a politician, no substance in the words." How about you try and back up your claims?

Quote
I rather stay at bay most of the time because I don't want to be ridiculed for my lack of vocabulary and poor grammar, rather than focusing on actual substance and message that stands behind those broken english sentences.
That right there is some rich fucking irony, considering you aren't discussing the substance of my post at all, only chaining together words with zero information value.

Quote
If you think democracy works well, how come most abstinents come from the highly educated group of people and not other way around? Or why don't you ask progressive Turkish youth on this forum what they think about democracy. Yanukovich was elected on democratic elections, you know. So is Erdogan and the rest of tyrants. They always get elected fair and square first time and with a big margin, which is one of the reason why they later get on a ego trip, thinking how they have became gods. There is a reason why there are limits on number of mandates in most countries which practice democracy.
As expected, you completely misunderstand not only my post but democracy as a whole. If Yanukovich was elected by the people and kept in power by the people then they got what they deserved. He is who they wanted. Same for everyone else. Ukraine is an exception in that the country is so absurdly corrupt that an elected official can have such a massive negative impact; in most western countries one person, even one party, can only fuck up so much because one of the characteristics of democratic governments is that power is distributed around evenly and there are checks and balances.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 19, 2014, 09:53:47 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 09:31:57 pm
I don't understand how it's connected to me. And you fail to explain

How do I fail to explain when I don't explain at all?

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 09:31:57 pm
Yet you still didn't explain anything after I asked multiple times. This could only mean that you either can't explain it properly or you're "elitist prick with lack of respect" or both.

Only? I'd say there're basically infinite possiblities explaining why I didn't answer, not only 3 which you mentioned.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 19, 2014, 11:07:15 pm
Everybody seems ok to say that Soviet Union was an awful dictatorship. So, what was his legitimity to give Crimea to Ukraine ?
A dictator plays to give and take territories and it's not a problem. A vast majority of a population vote to join Russia and it's a scandal.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rumblood on March 19, 2014, 11:32:45 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2014, 10:00:40 pm
But US imperialism is not better.

Funny how nobody in Russia was saying that in the 1990's.

Quote
For 1991 alone, hard currency aid pledged to the Soviet Union totals $16.9 billion.[

Now that they are back on their feet, they are back to being the same dickheads that they always were.  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 20, 2014, 06:08:35 am
Last pages of this thread:

NO MY DICKS BIGGEST

:D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 20, 2014, 08:32:19 am
Quote from: Rumblood on March 19, 2014, 11:32:45 pm
Funny how nobody in Russia was saying that in the 1990's.


You can consider they were victims of US imperialism. Imperialism is good for the oligarchy,not for peoples (especially in other countries).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 20, 2014, 08:34:16 am
Quote from: BlindGuy on March 20, 2014, 06:08:35 am
Last pages of this thread:

NO MY DICKS BIGGEST

:D

Fuck the measurement, I quit when I was identified as a "stupid"  :rolleyes:. Was very embarassing :oops:.

However -  our armed forces (such as they are) have learned one lesson from all this: "shoot at unidentified heavily armed green men blockading you first, diplomacy later. If you don't shoot - diplomacy will not work..." In fact - UKR army should have blockaded russian bases instantly after the yanukovich fleeing, just to "keep them safe" and inside. The cost of this failure is crimea unfortunately.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 08:36:52 am
I don't understand the whole "you have the right to shoot in self defense now" after one Ukrainian soldier died. So does that mean they were told not to shoot even if they were being shot at...? Wtf?

"Just let them kill you, we here at the capital have decided it would be good for our PR."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 08:44:07 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 08:18:53 pm
low educated and bad mannered ignorant alcoholics of working class alled "bydlo" in Ukrainian
the funniest and saddest part is that it bydlo currently works in a factory for his country for a botle of vodka, and Dave with his two higher education sits in gaming forums and arguing about the fate of the country with the unemployed and students  :P
 1000 post more and your country will prosper

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 20, 2014, 08:54:54 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 08:44:07 am
the funniest and saddest part is that it bydlo currently works in a factory for his country for a botle of vodka, and Dave with his two higher education sits in gaming forums and arguing about the fate of the country with the unemployed and students  :P
 1000 post more and your country will prosper
Nonsense, he works to get by and survive.
You really think - apart from a few idealists - anyone works for his/her country?
We work for money to buy things. That's it. Nothing more to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 08:59:23 am
Quote from: Molly on March 20, 2014, 08:54:54 am
Nonsense, he works to get by and survive.
You really think - apart from a few idealists - anyone works for his/her country?
We work for money to buy things. That's it. Nothing more to it.
I want to say that bydlo worked in a factory, mines for a bottle of vodka much better for the country than all those marketers, bankers, journalists, lawyers, etc. With 2-3 higher education )
 :P
(I'm not talking about scientists and geniuses )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 20, 2014, 09:02:50 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 08:59:23 am
I want to say that bydlo worked in a factory, mines for a bottle of vodka much better for the country than all those marketers, bankers, journalists, lawyers, etc. With 2-3 higher educationn )
 :P
And why is that? Would you have 1 guy in an excavator digging trench of 15 bydlos doing this, given that the results are the same? Would you like to be defended in court by a bydlo or yourself Vs a guy with PROPER education (or 2-3 of those actually)?

Work for the sake of working is BS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 09:07:18 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 20, 2014, 09:02:50 am
And why is that? Would you have 1 guy in an excavator digging trench of 15 bydlos doing this, given that the results are the same? Would you like to be defended in court by a bydlo or yourself Vs a guy with PROPER education (or 2-3 of those actually)?

Work for the sake of working is BS.

  bad example) if you need a college degree To control excavator I feel sorry for your country)))

Even In highly educated country needs people who will clean shit ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 20, 2014, 09:20:51 am
That's indeed true.
You can't send everyone to Uni - you'll need plumber and people who collect the garbage off the street.
Though the working environment becomes more complex every day.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 09:22:19 am
The magic words: supply and demand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 09:28:38 am
Quote from: Molly on March 20, 2014, 09:20:51 am
That's indeed true.
You can't send everyone to Uni - you'll need plumber and people who collect the garbage off the street.
Though the working environment becomes more complex every day.
Yes, someday all the dirty work will make robots, but for now any country need bydlo for dirty works, and if the country does not have it - country will be simplified entry for immigrants.

Quote from: Xant on March 20, 2014, 09:22:19 am
The magic words: supply and demand.
and that's why in the coming years will not be large countries with a population of 100% consisting of intellectuals

so love your bydlo, or instead of them u will get Ukrainians    :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 20, 2014, 09:32:35 am
So the upside of having lot of bydlos in the country is you will never have a problem with immigration?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 09:34:51 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 09:28:38 am
and that's why in the coming years will not be large countries with a population of 100% consisting of intellectuals
No. You do not understand supply and demand. It does not matter how many intellectuals a country has. Shit jobs do not need to be done by retards and uneducated scum. There is no reason 100% of the population can't have university educations.

Right now they're done by immigrants and bydlos because there's so many of them, not because you need immigrants or bydlos to do shit jobs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 09:47:25 am
Quote from: Xant on March 20, 2014, 09:34:51 am
No. You do not understand supply and demand. It does not matter how many intellectuals a country has. Shit jobs do not need to be done by retards and uneducated scum. There is no reason 100% of the population can't have university educations.

Right now they're done by immigrants and bydlos because there's so many of them, not because you need immigrants or bydlos to do shit jobs.
There is also no reason 100% of the population must have university educations.
 
I know a lot of unemployed people with higher education and two higher education who consider themselves too educated to work as a janitor or cashier. Immigrants do not have this feeling, it's cheap labors  :P

Quote from: Corwin on March 20, 2014, 09:32:35 am
So the upside of having lot of bydlos in the country is you will never have a problem with immigration?  :mrgreen:
there are always people willing to work for even cheaper )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 09:51:41 am
But lets back to topic!
Крим це Росія! смерть бендерам!  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 20, 2014, 10:03:28 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2014, 10:10:57 am
Quote from: Corwin on March 20, 2014, 10:03:28 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


wat
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 10:14:09 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 09:47:25 am
There is also no reason 100% of the population must have university educations.
Wrong. A more intelligent and knowledgeable populace is always preferable. Higher education also tends to go hand in hand with general kindness and well-being of societies.
 
Quote
I know a lot of unemployed people with higher education and two higher education who consider themselves too educated to work as a janitor or cashier. Immigrants do not have this feeling, it's cheap labors  :P
Yes, they consider themselves too educated to work as a janitor or a cashier -- again, because there are immigrants and bydlos to do the work. I can guarantee you that these jobs would get done if they paid 10,000 euros a month because nobody would be willing to do them for less. And then you would get people who'd do it for 9500€, and then some who'd do it for 9000€, until the supply meets demand and the pay and amount of workers stabilizes. Basic Ricardian economics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 10:18:08 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 08:44:07 am
the funniest and saddest part is that it bydlo currently works in a factory for his country for a botle of vodka, and Dave with his two higher education sits in gaming forums and arguing about the fate of the country with the unemployed and students  :P
 1000 post more and your country will prosper

If only they worked on factories. They work illegally on illegal markets, get paid directly by cash and don't pay taxes. Or they don't work at all and get paid by government for being unemployed. Those who work hard on factories have no time for demonstrations. This applies to both sides of protesters. And I don't argue about the fate of my country, I just think that some members of this community would be interested in my opinion as a citizen of Ukraine. Your constant tryhard to make a joke of everything you type make you look like a jester. Yes, it is so funny that people suffer and are on the edge of the war.

Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 08:59:23 am
I want to say that bydlo worked in a factory, mines for a bottle of vodka much better for the country than all those marketers, bankers, journalists, lawyers, etc. With 2-3 higher education )
 :P
(I'm not talking about scientists and geniuses )

I'm not a banker or journalist or whatever. I have medical and military educations. Also, those people who work in mines actually bring no money to Ukraine, because the coal production doesn't bring any profit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 10:30:51 am
Quote from: Xant on March 20, 2014, 10:14:09 am
Wrong. A more intelligent and knowledgeable populace is always preferable. Higher education also tends to go hand in hand with general kindness and well-being of societies.
 
any examples of states with more than 80% of people with higher education?  :P


Another thing is increasing the general level of education, but the division of the population into layers by education is necessary.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 20, 2014, 10:32:20 am
Back to the topic. This is, in my opinion, very good analysis of strategies of the West and of Russia, if you ignore false ideological rant about democracy and wanting to liberate and help Europeans countries towards the end:

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/03/putin-makes-a-move/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 10:37:05 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 10:30:51 am
any examples of states with more than 80% of people with higher education?  :P

Who cares about that education if it has no value? People in Russia and Ukraine who graduate from Universities having no clue about basics of their profession. This shit happened because everyone can achieve it and if you don't - then you're considered as wrong by the society. Because a useless economist with 2 uni educations who can't even count to 10 is any better than a talented plumber or a carpenter? That's why being educated and have a diploma are not connected in post-soviet countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 10:44:04 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 10:30:51 am
any examples of states with more than 80% of people with higher education?  :P
No, why? To see the effect of education you need only look at countries with well educated populaces and compare them to countries with non-educated populaces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 10:48:45 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 10:18:08 am
And I don't argue about the fate of my country, I just think that some members of this community would be interested in my opinion as a citizen of Ukraine. Your constant tryhard to make a joke of everything you type make you look like a jester. Yes, it is so funny that people suffer and are on the edge of the war.
maybe I would listen to your opinion on the events in your country, if your posts contain, your personal photos from Maidan, stories from demonstrations in which you personally was, and not links to resources that i can read while sitting at the office or storyes from budyes of ur budyes.
 Its like "i know all about Vietnam War cos iam from USA"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 10:58:29 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 10:48:45 am
maybe I would listen to your opinion on the events in your country, if your posts contain, your personal photos from Maidan, stories from demonstrations in which you personally was, and not links to resources that can read while sitting at the office or storyes from ur budyes.
 Its like "i know all about Vietnam War cos iam from USA"

You wouldn't listen anyway. I gave information from my personal eyes, including info about Odessa, Ukrainian fleet in there. Because you'd rather + Ivani4's post with complete bullshit from Russian news. I didn't post any stories from my buddies and the line about Vietnam is completely irrelevant. And I have no personal photoes from Maidan as I personally never supported these protests. I guess it's hard to believe with your propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 11:07:48 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 10:58:29 am
You wouldn't listen anyway. I gave information from my personal eyes, including info about Odessa, Ukrainian fleet in there. Because you'd rather + Ivani4's post with complete bullshit from Russian news. I didn't post any stories from my buddies and the line about Vietnam is completely irrelevant. And I have no personal photoes from Maidan as I personally never supported these protests. I guess it's hard to believe with your propaganda.
oh wait I will answer later, after a three-hour block of news about the greatness of Russia and Putin  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 11:39:23 am
aaaaaand iam back! soo hot news! http://www.sott.net/article/275876-Russia-not-isolated-Pan-African-Parliament-supports-Russias-stance-on-Crimea  :lol:
U.S. will not dare to go against such a number niggas  :twisted:

Now it remains only get the support of the Jews to muzzle Germany XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 20, 2014, 11:43:44 am
PAP to support the rebirth of another imperialistic power... ahahahahahahah :lol:

That is just so absurd, lmao.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 11:45:13 am
Quote from: [ptx] on March 20, 2014, 11:43:44 am
PAP to support the rebirth of another imperialistic power... ahahahahahahah :lol:
That is just so absurd, lmao.
stop ur shit propaganda here!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 20, 2014, 12:54:01 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 20, 2014, 11:43:44 am
PAP to support the rebirth of another imperialistic power... ahahahahahahah :lol:

That is just so absurd, lmao.

Actually it kind of makes sense, because african countries are stuck in a mindset in which national sovereignty is their goal. The Russian Federation's "revolt" against global interests gives the illusion that this antiquated logic isn't dead yet.

And I guess "some" of them got a little bonus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 20, 2014, 02:11:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 20, 2014, 10:14:09 am
Higher education also tends to go hand in hand with general kindness and well-being of societies.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 10:18:08 am
Those who work hard on factories have no time for demonstrations.


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 02:15:26 pm
When was the last time Butan made a post that was in any way backed up or had any information value?

Trick question: never.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 02:18:15 pm
(click to show/hide)
where i can find full video?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 20, 2014, 02:26:08 pm
On youporn? Under UN amateur.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 02:26:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 20, 2014, 02:11:24 pm

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I don't see how these posts contradict to each other. A lot of engineers work on factories actually. Ukrainian bydlo mostly works on illegal markets: merchants, taxi drivers, thugs, security (like if they protected anything).

Instead of making a friend out of Ukraine, Russia made it an enemy for Crimea. I see no way Ukraine joins any international community that Russia proposes in future. Russia's local success in Crimea is a global fail. When Ukraine was in-between 2 choices: EU or Russia, now it's only once choice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 20, 2014, 02:28:52 pm
Dave, you are absolutely right. There are two possible reasons:

1) Total Russian fail, terrible strategic planning
2) Plans for full takeover of Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 20, 2014, 02:39:15 pm
Wasnt contradictions between each other, more like if high education means being gentle, Xant is the dumbest person on earth.

Then your post, pure gold, Maidan was done by unemployed savages then? They had time to demonstrate for 3 months.

Come on, re-read sometimes  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 02:47:35 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 20, 2014, 02:39:15 pm
Wasnt contradictions between each other, more like if high education means being gentle, Xant is the dumbest person on earth.

Then your post, pure gold, Maidan was done by unemployed savages then? They had time to demonstrate for 3 months.

Come on, re-read sometimes  :D

Those who stayed there for 3 months are definitely unemployed people. I know a lot of people who came there for a couple of days (even local millionaires) just to show their point of view. But those who were there during all the time either had no job or got paid for that (or both). There were some special Yanukovich haters, who stayed there for a long time (like those whose business got caught by Yanukovich's team) but anyway they count as unemployed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 20, 2014, 03:15:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 20, 2014, 10:30:51 am
any examples of states with more than 80% of people with higher education?  :P

About education:
Quote
According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development’s latest report, as of 2011, an estimated 53.5% of Russian adults held a tertiary degree, which is the equivalent of a college degree in the United States. It was the highest proportion among the developed countries considered by the OECD.

Read more: The Most Educated Countries in the World - 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/10/15/the-most-educated-countries-in-the-world-2/#ixzz2wVniauK3
Follow us: @247wallst on Twitter | 247wallst on Facebook

Yes, Russia is the most educated country in the western world.
Deal with it!  8-)
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Although:
(click to show/hide)
:(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 03:33:52 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 20, 2014, 02:39:15 pm
Wasnt contradictions between each other, more like if high education means being gentle
Does anyone else doubt what I said? If so, I can explain why I'm right; Butan isn't smart enough to understand even if I explained it real slow-like. But then again, I doubt anyone with any intelligence would doubt that good education equals kinder societies and less savage people, it's obvious.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 20, 2014, 04:19:27 pm
I wasnt denying your high intelligence, quite the contrary, but you're like the worst person to state the obvious* fact that high education means general kindness, seeing your overall post history. I hope you at least smiled a bit internally when you wrote it else you lack some high education self-mockery  :lol:

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(click to show/hide)




On topic: does any besieged Ukrainian soldiers were assaulted in the last 48 hours? Or are the Russian happy to just try to undermine their resolution by continuing the siege?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 20, 2014, 04:42:32 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26653295

Worth a watch.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 04:47:17 pm
Yeah, that's horrible. I hope those retards will be severely punished, would be big mistake to let them escape punishment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 04:52:44 pm
Quote from: serr on March 20, 2014, 04:47:17 pm
Yeah, that's horrible. I hope those retards will be severely punished, would be big mistake to let them escape punishment.

I agree, nothing can justify such actions of deputies. Even if the guy did wrong things it doesn't let them beat him or force to sign things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 05:00:48 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 04:52:44 pm
I agree, nothing can justify such actions of deputies. Even if the guy did wrong things it doesn't let them beat him or force to sign things.

Quite ironically that he didn't. Well, probably he did before, but they beated him because his channel was broadcasting "Hromadske TV" - pro-maidan channel, that is supposedly sponsored by USA, which in turn was showing how Putin was signing bill of annexing Crimea.  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 20, 2014, 05:25:18 pm
So, the vast majority of the german (internet) population seems to think more or less that Putins actions are understandable and only pro-western politicians and media wants to tell us there was an annexation and Russia is acting aggressive. While some criticism on Western politics is certainly ok, this extreme trivialisation of the russian actions and its history is alarming.

Is it similar in other countries or is it only because germans love anti-american conspiracy theories so much?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2014, 05:34:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 20, 2014, 04:19:27 pm
I wasnt denying your high intelligence, quite the contrary, but you're like the worst person to state the obvious* fact that high education means general kindness, seeing your overall post history. I hope you at least smiled a bit internally when you wrote it else you lack some high education self-mockery  :lol:

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(click to show/hide)



On topic: does any besieged Ukrainian soldiers were assaulted in the last 48 hours? Or are the Russian happy to just try to undermine their retsolution by continuing the siege?
The problem here is that you are misinterpreting my post. I did not say that everyone who is educated is gentle.

Furthermore the irony would not work anyway because my formal education is far from impressive.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 20, 2014, 07:33:28 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on March 20, 2014, 05:25:18 pm
So, the vast majority of the german (internet) population seems to think more or less that Putins actions are understandable and only pro-western politicians and media wants to tell us there was an annexation and Russia is acting aggressive. While some criticism on Western politics is certainly ok, this extreme trivialisation of the russian actions and its history is alarming.

Is it similar in other countries or is it only because germans love anti-american conspiracy theories so much?
Yea, I noticed the same thing. And sometimes they give such stupid and idiotic reasons for being all "Putin did the right thing" that they make me feel even more ashamed than before :P

I've even read stuff like "Snipers on Maidan where US troops", neglecting the simple pictures everyone could see on YouTube with Police forces openly sniping at the protesters. Maybe there where others but that doesn't change the facts we saw and know.
Same for those "self defence forces" - they are so obviously Russian troops - besides the actual Russian troops with insignia, how on Earth can anyone try to reason about that simple fact that they invaded that place?
Well, I noticed now that I made a mistake of semantics. I wrote "invaded" which might be a choice of word that can be argued.

Let's try to make a list of facts that we can be certain of. I start:

- Ukrainian Police forces fired live rounds at the protesters in Kiev
- Russian military troops crossed the sovereign borders of the Ukraine
- the current Ukrainian parliament members are the same regularly voted representatives they were before the protests

Those 3 things out of the top of my head are simple facts I believe I can be sure of.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 08:25:57 pm
Quote
- Ukrainian Police forces fired live rounds at the protesters in Kiev
destroying capital of your own country and say that you are fighting against the bandits dictatorship. throwing everything what can you throw in the riot police includes molotovs... ah ok... its a "protest". capturing the administrative buildings, trying to beat the police(well police was more effective at beating protestors but do not call them as agressors lol). demonstrators.

no matter what they was standing for. their actions was a crime and the law should work same to everyone so the most active "demonstrators" should be prisoned.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 20, 2014, 08:28:55 pm
Well, yes, they are protesters. Their level of violence is something completely different.

Holding up a shield with "I am against it!" = protester.
Storming a building and laying waste to the interior while holding up a shield "I am against it!" = still a protester.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 20, 2014, 08:31:44 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 20, 2014, 07:33:28 pm
- Ukrainian Police forces fired live rounds at the protesters in Kiev
- Russian military troops crossed the sovereign borders of the Ukraine

How can you be so sure every live rounds were not fired by a third party? And then be sure those soldiers all come from the russian military force? In both case you purposedfully ignore possible scenarios that you have no sources of, because it fits your idea of how things went down.

I would remind you that before the scenario of EU/US politicians were doing some "behind the curtains" revolt support and that a 3rd party was shooting at protesters during the protests came up with some legitimity, those who claimed it was the case were called many things, so how can you be so sure you have all the keys here? You sound like you're just backpedalling to the closest border of certainty you can find after you have been proved wrong on so many cases.

I'm saying that knowing that the police was officially authorized to use live rounds, so there is a high chance at least one police officer chose to allow himself to fire, but you're not presenting any facts here.

If you really want to prove things so that we can debate further, you have to not just state what you think is true and be gone with it. A lot of people criticized me for the same exact reason, then when I tried to explain why it is it was not welcomed with warm thoughts  :lol:



Quote from: Molly on March 20, 2014, 07:33:28 pm
- the current Ukrainian parliament members are the same regularly voted representatives they were before the protests

They are all the same person? Nothing changed at how they work? How legal was the ousting of the president by the parliament, and the appointing of a interim president/prime minister? How legal was the ousting of all pre-maidan supporters of Yanukovich in favor of other persons? No shortcuts were taken at all?
Someone who knows Ukrainian laws could answer.


Then of course my mandatory: if you find what happened in Kiev perfectly legal, I challenge you to find something illegal at what happened in Simferopol.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 08:37:00 pm
includes the attacking people inside? at the last day of the "peaceful protest" - 22nd february - there was a man killed by "protestors". it was a guard of something (i dont remember what) and he was the only man there... and this result. some people from the road ispection was killed at the 22-23 night because they wasnt letting some cars in Kiev. and it shouldnt be punished? I belive that at 22nd february protestors was using the firearms and there was many proofs of the items pretty similar to the real weapons.
protestors was using molotovs so they litterally tryed to kill the policemen. is it a simple protest?
I dont respect the previos government but people who was provocing protestors to the agressive actions deserves much less respect.
I'll repeat once more, I was watching the stream from maydan at the evening 22nd february. when the maydan was under siege. the things we can hear from tribune was simple and horrible. horrible lie and terrible provocation.
"LOOK AT THEM! THEY ARE UNDER PSYCHOTROP INJECTIONS!!11". wat???

// thanks for Serr. 22 february = 18 february
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 09:01:13 pm
Was going to comment "facts" that you posted but it is too difficult.
Way too emotional post with wrong dates, wrong order of events and in one place 100% lie.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 09:06:44 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 20, 2014, 08:31:44 pm
How can you be so sure every live rounds were not fired by a third party? And then be sure those soldiers all come from the russian military force? In both case you purposedfully ignore possible scenarios that you have no sources of, because it fits your idea of how things went down.

I would remind you that before the scenario of EU/US politicians were doing some "behind the curtains" revolt support and that a 3rd party was shooting at protesters during the protests came up with some legitimity, those who claimed it was the case were called many things, so how can you be so sure you have all the keys here? You sound like you're just backpedalling to the closest border of certainty you can find after you have been proved wrong on so many cases.

I'm saying that knowing that the police was officially authorized to use live rounds, so there is a high chance at least one police officer chose to allow himself to fire, but you're not presenting any facts here.

If you really want to prove things so that we can debate further, you have to not just state what you think is true and be gone with it. A lot of people criticized me for the same exact reason, then when I tried to explain why it is it was not welcomed with warm thoughts  :lol:



They are all the same person? Nothing changed at how they work? How legal was the ousting of the president by the parliament, and the appointing of a interim president/prime minister? How legal was the ousting of all pre-maidan supporters of Yanukovich in favor of other persons? No shortcuts were taken at all?
Someone who knows Ukrainian laws could answer.


Then of course my mandatory: if you find what happened in Kiev perfectly legal, I challenge you to find something illegal at what happened in Simferopol.

Well, we can discuss it. If you follow this logic, how can you be sure those shots were not made by aliens from Mars? I'm pretty sure both sides used guns. It's very doubtful that the majority of victims is a work of 3rd side as I witnessed live report of head surgeon there in military hospital who opened some info about bullets used to injure/kill both sides. Most of them were 3mm (flober useless bullets) and 5.45 (used by AK-74). Even with SBU using 7.62 AKS and snipers of Ukrainian police, 7.62 and 9mm (used by pistols) bullets were not that often. It doesn't say that sniper couldn't use 5.45 gun for sniping though, but it's doubtful. There are also records of communication between Ukrainian snipers which also indirectly proves that there was a 3rd side sniping but it also proves that Ukrainian snipers fired as well.

What do you mean "the same person"? Parliament of Ukraine is completely the same (like all 450 members are the same). "Ousting" the President by Ukrainian Parliament is completely legal and it's called impeachment, though they didn't do it as he ran away himself. In case when there is no functioning President his functions are transferred temporary to the head of Parliament (speaker of Parliament).

I don't see how you find this correlation with Crimea. I can hardly find anything that is not against the law in that story:
1. Self proclaimed leaders - against the law.
2. Separatism - against the law.
3. Local referendum - against the law, impossible due to Constitution.
4. Referendum to join other country/leave Ukraine - against the law, against Constitution.
5. Bypassing Ukrainian borders with military forces - against both Ukrainian and international laws, against Constitution.
6. Unauthorized movements of Russian soldiers outside their base in Sevastopol - against the military contract with Russia.

As I've said, Maidan protesters who used guns and Molotov cocktails are not any better than Crimean separatists. And I don't really feel a lot of compassion to those who died of a bullet while holding molotov cocktail. But the whole situation in Crimea is just horrible. Both Crimean self proclaimed leaders are 2 small images of Yanukovich: both of them have criminal past. Aksyonov has a criminal name "Goblin", used to be one of the leaders of mafia group called "Salem" (known not only to Crimeans but to the whole Southern Ukraine). Konstantinov had a construction business with company called Console that used a popular criminal scheme: you start building a huge house, you sell flats before you finish building and you never finish building it. Has almost 50 unfinished construction objects in Ukraine. Such people went to politics because they were afraid of chase from other bandits or police, because deputies had/have special rights.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 09:10:10 pm
seems I am failed at the dates of all those actions... at the dates but not at the events. btw may you tell when it was? at 18 or at 11? at 18 I think.

Serr, I really cant understand how can you be on the side of those vandals.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 20, 2014, 09:17:27 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 20, 2014, 08:31:44 pm
How can you be so sure every live rounds were not fired by a third party? And then be sure those soldiers all come from the russian military force? In both case you purposedfully ignore possible scenarios that you have no sources of, because it fits your idea of how things went down.

I would remind you that before the scenario of EU/US politicians were doing some "behind the curtains" revolt support and that a 3rd party was shooting at protesters during the protests came up with some legitimity, those who claimed it was the case were called many things, so how can you be so sure you have all the keys here? You sound like you're just backpedalling to the closest border of certainty you can find after you have been proved wrong on so many cases.

I'm saying that knowing that the police was officially authorized to use live rounds, so there is a high chance at least one police officer chose to allow himself to fire, but you're not presenting any facts here.

If you really want to prove things so that we can debate further, you have to not just state what you think is true and be gone with it. A lot of people criticized me for the same exact reason, then when I tried to explain why it is it was not welcomed with warm thoughts  :lol:



They are all the same person? Nothing changed at how they work? How legal was the ousting of the president by the parliament, and the appointing of a interim president/prime minister? How legal was the ousting of all pre-maidan supporters of Yanukovich in favor of other persons? No shortcuts were taken at all?
Someone who knows Ukrainian laws could answer.


Then of course my mandatory: if you find what happened in Kiev perfectly legal, I challenge you to find something illegal at what happened in Simferopol.
Actually, you try very hard to ignore facts.
There are freaking videos on youtube showing Police officers, next to Berkut dudes, shooting with real weapons.
There were troops crossing the border with the Russian flags on their uniform and vehicles.
Parliament members are the same people - that's what I wrote and ment. Where the heck did I write anything about "how they work"?

Blaming others not presenting facts and then deliberately ignore them is kinda annoying, Butan.
Writing a wall of text with random nonsense rambling and then pull something out of your ass of me being proven wrong... Jesus, there is just no point in discussing anything when you don't even read things properly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 09:18:57 pm
But I'm not on their side.

At least not on the side of people who were throwing molotovs and shooting police with firearms.
However those who came to maidan and didn't do those things I can understand and more or less support, though what they did was bad for Ukraine. They really should have waited till president elections.
As for those who did violent things... They are already bad enough. I don't see any point in making them worse with obvious lie or doubtful unconfirmed information. The same applies for other side though. Those who make some merciless monsters of police are not better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 20, 2014, 09:33:49 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 08:25:57 pm
destroying capital of your own country and say that you are fighting against the bandits dictatorship. throwing everything what can you throw in the riot police includes molotovs... ah ok... its a "protest". capturing the administrative buildings, trying to beat the police(well police was more effective at beating protestors but do not call them as agressors lol). demonstrators.

no matter what they was standing for. their actions was a crime and the law should work same to everyone so the most active "demonstrators" should be prisoned.

Never heard of a false flag (or black flag) operation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/everyone-agrees-ukraine-sniper-attacks-false-flag-argue-culprit.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 09:40:01 pm
but the leaders!the leaders of both sides who letted all this happened? from the ex-government - got punished... from the maydan? ...

and lets remember - all this started from the "we want to keep the way in EU". so it wasnt anything about corruption etc.  people was standing there because someone said that EU iz gud and thats all. maybe few arguments without explaination.

and thats why I dont see any reason to blame russia in the things are going on. what can I say about annexation part of the country if here was change of the government without elections.

(click to show/hide)

the only thing why I dislike russian actions is destabilisating. ofc the bullshit was started at december... but even the bloodshed in the Kiev wasnt as important as all this.


//
I am talking not about snipers. demonstrators with weapons was showed even in our news ... and even on pro-maydan channels. sure they doubt that it really was firearms but I dont.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 09:51:06 pm
Quote
seems I am failed at the dates of all those actions... at the dates but not at the events. btw may you tell when it was? at 18 or at 11? at 18 I think.

Yes, 18.
As for events you posted:

Quote
some people from the road ispection was killed at the 22-23 night because they wasnt letting some cars in Kiev
They were killed inside Kiev and the reason you wrote is obviously wrong. Aye, they could be killed by "protesters" but just as well it could be some criminals not connected with maidan who just used unstable situation for their own purposes.

Quote
there was a man killed by "protestors". it was a guard of something (i dont remember what) and he was the only man there...
That was office of Party of Regions and that party was the only source of information about that killing and its circumstances. Though in this particular case it is quite believable to be truth, I wouldn't call them honest reliable source of information, rather the opposite.

Quote
I dont respect the previos government but people who was provocing protestors to the agressive actions deserves much less respect.
Now that's very arguable statement.
I believe that main provocator was Yanukovich himself, I just don't understand why every time protests were about to die because of lack of action he was reigniting it with new power.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 09:57:39 pm
Quote
I believe that main provocator was Yanukovich himself, I just don't understand why every time protests were about to die because of lack of action he was reigniting it with new power.
lol
Yanukovich was doing as active as our government now. he wasnt giving the orders to kick the maydan out of there and was talking about negotiations and its obviouslly not that what people was waiting for. Maydan wanted him to give up, people who was against it wanted to hear something brutal... but he was doing litterally nothing. unlike the maydan leaders.
btw every time that conflict was becomming harder because of demonstrators actions.
the only one exception is that night when students was beaten(but there are some rumors about provocations from radicals. belive it or dont belive it is the individual choise for everyone because its the secret covered in the fog of the history).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 10:11:50 pm
Well, probably that is how you see it.
It looks very different to me. To me, actions of protesters were very predictable, they never, not even one time did anything unexpected.

And Yanukovich(or someone from his team) had to predict them and handle(as I said it wasn't really difficult),
What they did however - they tried to disperse protests when they could just ignore them, ignored them when they had to reach a compromise(yes, they made some offers, but those offers were nearly impossible to accept) and were making concessions when protesters tried to use force.

That way they simply showed that peaceful protests won't achieve anything, except that some protesters could be beaten or jailed, while violent actions could achieve results, what actually happened in the end
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 10:18:10 pm
should it be achived if its not resonable enough?
what kind of compromise are you talking about? some protesters said things like "we will stay here till the end!"... till the end of what?
since Yanukovich accepted that russian offer there was no way in compromise because maydan wanted to take all the power like it actually did.
lets remember 18 february. pro-western side blocked the work of the government and protestors wanted to capture it aswell... the thing is there was kinda more police than there should be.
at 18 february parlament was going to vote for some points with which both sides can agree... but we know what happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 10:30:14 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 10:18:10 pm
should it be achived if its not resonable enough?
what kind of compromise are you talking about? some protesters said things like "we will stay here till the end!"... till the end of what?
since Yanukovich accepted that russian offer there was no way in compromise because maydan wanted to take all the power like it actually did.
lets remember 18 february. pro-western side blocked the work of the government and protestors wanted to capture it aswell... the thing is there was kinda more police than there should be.
at 18 february parlament was going to vote for some points with which both sides can agree... but we know what happened.

It is arguable if signing Eu association was reasonable. However at that point they could just ignore it + reasonably explain why it shouldn't be signed.
After November 30th protesters main demand was to punish those who was responsible for dispersing maidan in that night.
Later they demanded return to constitution of 2004 and early president elections, which also could and should have been accepted.
On 18th February clashes started when parliament refused to consider returning to constitution of 2004 year
However I believe it was too late at that point for peaceful solution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 10:44:46 pm
I am agree with it but you just said that what I wanted to see.
yes, it was too late for peaceful solution so lets not call this protest as peaceful. everything what is breaking laws is a crime... soo...
and the point "it was too late" says 2 things more:
1) so maydan wasnt interested in the compromise that much... but they are citizen but not government. who they are? if they are not following the laws, rights and duties of the ukrainian citizen - they are not citizen of ukraine then.
2) it doesnt makes their actions less criminal.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 10:51:58 pm
Wow, that's really interesting where it goes...
1) Maidan was interested in compromise. However on 18th February it was too late for it.
2) Noone is deniyng that their actions were illegal

But...
What would you say about government that is breaking laws? Or president? Or police? Do they really have more right to do that than protesters? And what people should do when those who have to protect their rights are the first to violate them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 20, 2014, 10:56:10 pm
Everytime I post I'm being told I'm stupid as fuck and my point of view is worth nothing, I should really start thinking its true!  :shock: :D

Quote
I don't see how you find this correlation with Crimea. I can hardly find anything that is not against the law in that story:
1. Self proclaimed leaders - against the law.
2. Separatism - against the law.
3. Local referendum - against the law, impossible due to Constitution.
4. Referendum to join other country/leave Ukraine - against the law, against Constitution.


You should really start reading some history of how your own country was even formed and found itself including Crimea + international laws on independancy.


Quote
5. Bypassing Ukrainian borders with military forces - against both Ukrainian and international laws, against Constitution.
6. Unauthorized movements of Russian soldiers outside their base in Sevastopol - against the military contract with Russia.

I dont think the WW2 was sanctionned by some laws either, Russia isnt the first country to use the Big Stick ideology.
Even then, there is so many intricacy in the papers signed by all the countries concerned by this situation that they can always refer to some shadowy chapters which will excuse what they are doing (anyone read Yuschenko and Putin speechs recently?), and this is the same on both side : the side which accuses of crime, the side who feign to have committed no crime.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 11:08:16 pm
we got that what we was voting for and thats it. they actually wasnt doing worse than in Yuschenko times.

but this situation is quite tipical for our country for all the years of independence so I am not sure why all this conversations are started now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 11:25:42 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 20, 2014, 10:56:10 pm
Everytime I post I'm being told I'm stupid as fuck and my point of view is worth nothing, I should really start thinking its true!  :shock: :D


You should really start reading some history of how your own country was even formed and found itself including Crimea + international laws on independancy.


I think that explanation why these things happen to you in this thread is just right in the very same post of yours. I gave you reasonable text and you reply "you should start reading some history of your own country". Expand your thoughts about history and international law because otherwise it's just a bunch of words. The whole thing of discussion/debates here is to prove your point of view (or prove that someone is wrong).

Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 11:08:16 pm
we got that what we was voting for and thats it. they actually wasnt doing worse than in Yuschenko times.

Funny to admit it, but Yuschenko was actually better than Yanukovich and Kuchma was better than Yuschenko  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 20, 2014, 11:32:38 pm
Quote
Funny to admit it, but Yuschenko was actually better than Yanukovich and Kuchma was better than Yuschenko  :rolleyes:

Yeah, it is really funny how each time we call our president bad and then manage to elect even worse one on next elections.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 11:50:24 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 21, 2014, 01:34:53 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 11:25:42 pm
I think that explanation why these things happen to you in this thread is just right in the very same post of yours. I gave you reasonable text and you reply "you should start reading some history of your own country". Expand your thoughts about history and international law because otherwise it's just a bunch of words. The whole thing of discussion/debates here is to prove your point of view (or prove that someone is wrong).

I think that one of the points Butan tries to make here (among others) is that Ukraine's law against local referendums runs counter to the right to self-determination. This is also why I think the idea of a referendum was sort of okay (but of course not in how it was executed).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 07:49:58 am
lol nice photocut ^^

WHORE:

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 04:59:29 pm
yeah, one more low-educated whore who can't even speak proper Russian. Nothing new, a lot of such shit in Russian judgement system.
She loves social networks.
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full foto
Girl:
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Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2014, 04:59:29 pm
She loves social networks.
http://coub.com/view/zjix

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 21, 2014, 09:27:08 am
Let's put the Russian principle for Crimea onto some other country. Let's use Germany...

Germany is a federation of 16 states.
Let's imagine Saxony thinks that it would be better off with Poland and starts crying for help.
Let's imagine Poland sends troops into Saxony, crossing the borders of Germany with military forces.
Let's imagine Saxony then starts a referendum about becoming a part of Poland.
Let's imagine 123% (:lol:) of the regional capital population votes for becoming a part of Poland - among others ofc.
Let's imagine Poland excepts the referendum vote and Saxony becomes Polish.

Do you people really believe that this is okay? That a single region should be allowed to just switch their country? Including every single factory, military base and government building?

You can do this step-by-step thing for basically every country. I guess most people reading the above would say "What? Some part of Germany becoming Polish nowadays? That's silly!"
Why does it seem to be okay for a lot of people when Russia just did this with Crimea? "CUZ HIZTORY YOLO" isn't good enough in my eyes.
DarkBlade wrote
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 20, 2014, 10:44:46 pm
everything what is breaking laws is a crime...
So, why isn't it a crime what Russia did? It's against the law as pointed out by a shitload of smart Professors and experts...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 21, 2014, 10:17:51 am
Found a relevant GIF, can't refrain from posting:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 21, 2014, 10:20:45 am
There is no such thing as "crime" or "justice" for countries.

As for Saxony, everybody knows a legit referendum there would never end up with "let's join UIF", except in Strategus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 10:33:18 am
Quote from: Molly on March 21, 2014, 09:27:08 am
Do you people really believe that this is okay? That a single region should be allowed to just switch their country? Including every single factory, military base and government building?
why not? If u dont like flat/town u just switch it  :P

BTW soon u will seen what would happen to Crimea if will not be there Self-Defense Forces, on the example of Venice  :P
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 21, 2014, 10:39:02 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 10:33:18 am
why not? If u dont like flat/town u just switch it  :P
And if you don't like the law you just violate it?

And yes exactly - if you don't like the country you live in - YOU MOVE to the country you like. Exceptions apply, e.g. if you are not being liked by the country and they do genocide on you (a relevant Kosovo example). In crimea - it was anything but reasonable and the reason was "because putler wills it". With 123% vote applied on top of this, to commemorate best of russian traditions  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 10:47:24 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 21, 2014, 10:39:02 am
And if you don't like the law you just violate it?
yep just that in Russia we do  :P deal with it ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 11:53:00 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 07:49:58 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 21, 2014, 11:55:43 am
I am sooo glad that I google translated those two last posts :D
Bring it on!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 21, 2014, 11:57:15 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 10:47:24 am
yep just that in Russia we do  :P deal with it ^^
I actually would like to hear your honest opinion on this matter for once. Can you do that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 12:08:53 pm
Quote from: Moncho on March 21, 2014, 11:55:43 am
I am sooo glad that I google translated those two last posts :D
Bring it on!
show me the rubles 1st!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 21, 2014, 12:32:15 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 11:53:00 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 12:36:36 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 21, 2014, 12:32:15 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 21, 2014, 12:40:03 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 21, 2014, 11:57:15 am
I actually would like to hear your honest opinion on this matter for once. Can you do that?
Not going to happen. Irony and humor is the last defence that the sane mind can use when stuff around is THAT fucked up  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 21, 2014, 12:50:43 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 12:36:36 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 21, 2014, 12:54:12 pm
The nationalism in Ukraine is crap, but fucking understandable given that the area have been dominated (and starved) by other powers, Russians, Poles and Lithuanians for centuries. The Fascist elements are alive and kicking because they were the last group to resist Russian dominance.  I mean.. Rotten ideology, but understandable in the case of Ukraine.

Now as of the motives of Putin. They are primarily at home. To boost the humiliated spirits and ego of the Russian people, and probably to secure his own re-election.
(It's not like Russia need more land, and that Russians in Ukraine were threatened in any way is pure BS. People in Eastern Europe rarely have a problem with Russians, they have a problem with Russia.)

I do understand some Russians in here feel a bit of bold pride over seeing their president outmaneuver the rest of the world, but I'm deeply worried this move will not pay off for Russia. It will isolate your country even more, force countries away from using the gas both sides depend on. With crashing gas prices, Russia would have to produce other export products to compete in the rest of the world. Funnily, the only Russian export besides (gas/oil) aging weapon technology I can think of is Matroshka dolls.

I'm pretty sure Putin will even grab more of Ukraine, and then I'm deeply worried he will actually have signed a kind of death penalty for Russia. If not death, then a long long prison sentence. You will experience more poverty, and in the long run a weaker state. When the time comes the west will be ready to consume the vast resources you sit on. And like Russia waited for Ukraine to be weak, and perhaps even engineered the weakness, the rest of the world will wait until Russia is weak.

I think Russia is facing more poverty, more propaganda, more extrememism, and a more totalitarian state in the future. Sorry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 12:56:00 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 21, 2014, 12:50:43 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 21, 2014, 01:01:34 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 21, 2014, 12:54:12 pm
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amen
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 21, 2014, 02:28:14 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 20, 2014, 11:25:42 pm
Expand your thoughts about history and international law because otherwise it's just a bunch of words. The whole thing of discussion/debates here is to prove your point of view (or prove that someone is wrong).


Sorry, I though you knew your own goddamn national history and didnt think you would need I "expand my thoughts" (everytime someone does you then insult him if he doesnt agree with you) on how Ukraine declared independance from USSR (edit: while it was politically unstable) by parliamentary declaration + referendum where the result was scandalously high for YES :rolleyes: not sure USSR declared "thats very legal, I thank you for taking a chunk of our land from us!". See any similarities yet?

Then, after Russian civil war of 1917, how Crimea declared itself an independant republic, then an autonomous republic inside USSR then unilaterally transfered to Ukraine Soviet State without any people consultation, how legitimate was the fact that Ukraine kept control of the Crimean peninsulate after the USSR broke, a gift from the devil itself!? The constitution of 1992 voted by the new legal Ukraine independant state for the Crimean region express by itself the fact that even Ukraine knew they hadnt the cultural/history ties to the political control of this region, because it had been a russian populated/controlled land for 3 centuries.

On independancy legalism; I suggest you to just read rights to self determination of modern international laws ruled and controlled by the United Nations, and how it was used to legitimize such or such states, and some others not in history (refer to older posts on this same thread, on former Yugoslavia and all the successing states like Serbia/Monteblack in spanish/Kosovo, and other states like Czechoslovakia/Slovakia/Czech Republic, or even Namibia and south Sudan).


tl;dr: stop being selectively naive then cynical and read history about your own country and countries around you before trying to make others look bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 03:30:05 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 21, 2014, 02:28:14 pm

Sorry, I though you knew your own goddamn national history and didnt think you would need I "expand my thoughts" (everytime someone does you then insult him if he doesnt agree with you) on how Ukraine declared independance from USSR (edit: while it was politically unstable) by parliamentary declaration + referendum where the result was scandalously high for YES :rolleyes: not sure USSR declared "thats very legal, I thank you for taking a chunk of our land from us!". See any similarities yet?

Then, after Russian civil war of 1917, how Crimea declared itself an independant republic, then an autonomous republic inside USSR then unilaterally transfered to Ukraine Soviet State without any people consultation, how legitimate was the fact that Ukraine kept control of the Crimean peninsulate after the USSR broke, a gift from the devil itself!? The constitution of 1992 voted by the new legal Ukraine independant state for the Crimean region express by itself the fact that even Ukraine knew they hadnt the cultural/history ties to the political control of this region, because it had been a russian populated/controlled land for 3 centuries.

On independancy legalism; I suggest you to just read rights to self determination of modern international laws ruled and controlled by the United Nations, and how it was used to legitimize such or such states, and some others not in history (refer to older posts on this same thread, on former Yugoslavia and all the successing states like Serbia/Monteblack in spanish/Kosovo, and other states like Czechoslovakia/Slovakia/Czech Republic, or even Namibia and south Sudan).


tl;dr: stop being selectively naive then cynical and read history about your own country and countries around you before trying to make others look bad.

I'm not naive. And the reason why I asked to expand your thoughts because I was sceptical about this and now I see your point of view and why it is wrong. As I've said already I don't take your opinion as reasonable because it looks like you've read 1 article, got it wrong and interpreted it even worse.

1. About USSR. It's a completely different story. USSR got disbanded and Ukraine announced it's sovereignty after Russia. I kind of agree that transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine wasn't really democratic, though it happened 60 years ago and Ukraine inherited Crimea as its own territory from Soviet Union. First of all, I don't think it's appropriate to mix the declaration of independence and annexation. There are a lot of republics with the same status in Russia so if we speak about that, then we should speak about every republic of Russian Federation. Also if you want to start this "Ukraine left USSR illegally" you should get ready to discussions how legally USSR appeared.

2. About population of Crimea. Crimean native population are Crimean Tatars. Crimea being populated/controlled by Russians during 3 centuries is just something that you took out of the ocean. Russians terrorized native population of Crimea during the whole time Russians were there. At some point (like 10 years before giving Crimea to Ukraine) USSR deported ALL Crimean Tatars to central Asia and Siberia. Russians were the majority in Crimea only after USSR appeared. Also as far as I counted, Crimea was Russian for approximately 170 years (in fact less, because these years include all the revolutions, wars and occupations).

And once again, instead of explaining you suggest something to read. You mix definitions that are different, that's why you give wrong and inappropriate examples. You'd rather used Chechnya i.e.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 21, 2014, 05:05:49 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoZwWzYBBkc
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 21, 2014, 05:47:34 pm
Give Crimea to Genoese merchant families.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 21, 2014, 05:59:08 pm
I like where this thread is going

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 21, 2014, 06:09:37 pm
Quote from: serr on March 21, 2014, 05:05:49 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoZwWzYBBkc

Omg yolotrovsky such a coward, uses protection !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 21, 2014, 07:52:39 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 21, 2014, 09:27:08 am
So, why isn't it a crime what Russia did? It's against the law as pointed out by a shitload of smart Professors and experts...
did I say that it isnt?
just I cant agree with the way how western worlds accepting the events in ukraine. if both sides are doing wrong - both are wrong even if some evil is worse than other evil. even if one of them deserves hard punishment - it doesnt forgives the another one evil.

also I cant understand how come that Crimea should be part as Ukraine. because its happened so historically? once and forever? lol. I am not saying that Crimea should be part of Russia but I think only crimean people can control the Crimea with full power because its THEIR land. not Kievan, not Moscow.
referendum said that Crimea wish to be on the russian side. I dont belive in that accurace in results but only blind person can say that Crimea prefer Kiev.
as I already said - every president and parlament elections Crimea shows that they prefer pro-eastern side.

haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, spectators gonna spectate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 21, 2014, 08:00:57 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 21, 2014, 07:52:39 pm
haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, spectators gonna spectate.

I will keep spectating, thank you very much!

Posted twice, and it felt like this both times:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 21, 2014, 08:17:27 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 03:30:05 pm
About population of Crimea. Crimean native population are Crimean Tatars. Crimea being populated/controlled by Russians during 3 centuries is just something that you took out of the ocean. Russians terrorized native population of Crimea during the whole time Russians were there. At some point (like 10 years before giving Crimea to Ukraine) USSR deported ALL Crimean Tatars to central Asia and Siberia. Russians were the majority in Crimea only after USSR appeared. Also as far as I counted, Crimea was Russian for approximately 170 years (in fact less, because these years include all the revolutions, wars and occupations).

And if we go even deeper in history we'll find out that Crimean Tatars were taking slaves from Russia and Ukraine and were delivering them to Ottoman Empire. There is no good or bad, just might makes right. For example, always thought that most Mercs are assholes but you guys were always popular because you were strong and respected clan. Same goes now for Grey Order and Druzhina. Good and evil are man made stuff to justify actions of either side in a conflict.

Because of all this shit, relations between Russia and EU is very poor and countries like mine will have to pick sides. Our export and gas import depends on Russia, but we also depend of EU for many things.

This is not even conflict between countries, this is NATO wanting supremacy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 21, 2014, 08:18:36 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 21, 2014, 07:52:39 pm
I am not saying that Crimea should be part of Russia but I think only crimean people can control the Crimea with full power because its THEIR land. not Kievan, not Moscow
So where do you draw the line then? Should you be able to control your apartment with full power, forcing everyone else to treat it as if it were a country? What about a family that owned an estate, should they be able to control their own lands with full power? It is their land, after all. Or perhaps ten estates would be enough people and land? Or maybe a village? A town? A city? A municipality?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 21, 2014, 09:02:21 pm
what about the whole ukraine then?
I just meant that local government should have more power than country government in each region. global country is needed to connect all the regions and for world politics. in my opinion its so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 21, 2014, 09:11:42 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 21, 2014, 07:52:39 pm
...

also I cant understand how come that Crimea should be part as Ukraine. because its happened so historically? once and forever?...

Well personally, i have no problem that the crimean population has chosen to join the RF because they hope for a better future but i have a problem how it was done.

A better approach have would been if the crimean people had started some protests for more autonomy (even with some slighty pushes from Moscow) after the collapse of the ukrainian government.
if they had say no and had sent the police/army to put down the protest, then the crimeans had filled the victim role and the world had seen russian troops as protectors of the poor Crimea against the evil Ukraine.

Now it looks like big bad Russia bullies the little Ukraine, tells lies to the rest of the world (these are no russian troops xaxaxa) and wonders why everyone is pissed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 21, 2014, 09:15:19 pm
all you need is to choose a team. i personally play for eu/usa because its the better option of the two (if it comes down to russia/usaeu) in all aspects.

or you may be lucky and be born in switzerland and you can fuck up with everybody and just get rich watching others fight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 21, 2014, 09:17:29 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 21, 2014, 09:11:42 pm
Well personally, i have no problem that the crimean population has chosen to join the RF because they hope for a better future but i have a problem how it was done.

A better approach have would been if the crimean people had started some protests for more autonomy (even with some slighty pushes from Moscow) after the collapse of the ukrainian government.
if they had say no and had sent the police/army to put down the protest, then the crimeans had filled the victim role and the world had seen russian troops as protectors of the poor Crimea against the evil Ukraine.

Now it looks like big bad Russia bullies the little Ukraine, tells lies to the rest of the world (these are no russian troops xaxaxa) and wonders why everyone is pissed.

+1

problem is russians are not able to do anything in a good way. the only thing they know is how to "conquer". kgb like/bolshevik/imperialistic/etc. manners die hard...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 09:19:23 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on March 21, 2014, 07:52:39 pm
did I say that it isnt?
just I cant agree with the way how western worlds accepting the events in ukraine. if both sides are doing wrong - both are wrong even if some evil is worse than other evil. even if one of them deserves hard punishment - it doesnt forgives the another one evil.

also I cant understand how come that Crimea should be part as Ukraine. because its happened so historically? once and forever? lol. I am not saying that Crimea should be part of Russia but I think only crimean people can control the Crimea with full power because its THEIR land. not Kievan, not Moscow.
referendum said that Crimea wish to be on the russian side. I dont belive in that accurace in results but only blind person can say that Crimea prefer Kiev.
as I already said - every president and parlament elections Crimea shows that they prefer pro-eastern side.

haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, spectators gonna spectate.

If referendum is full of falsification how can you say that people didn't vote with the same result but for the opposite side? If referendum is falsificated then it should have no power, no matter how people WOULD vote anyway. And how can you make referendums that are not acknowledged by anyone besides a couple of countries? It's like I make a referendum with the question "Would you like to have 1 million bucks for each of you from the government?", I just made shitloads of copies where I asked my friends to sign, my buddy announced referendum successful with 96% votes for (those who voted against will achieve money too). I suggested to give 1 million bucks to governments of Bhutan, Malawi, Tuvalu and Madagascar to acknowledge it in case my referendum succeeds.  Yeah, majority of people would vote for getting money for nothing, but why should it matter?

I myself paid taxes from those Crimea had its budget, why didn't Crimeans asked all Ukrainians then? Why Putin didn't ask Russians if they want to pay taxes to donate Crimeans? Wouldn't be it democratic?

Also I have nothing against Crimeans. If they want to join Russia - it's their own will. But everyone is mad at Russia invading Ukraine, that's the point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 21, 2014, 09:23:25 pm
According to this: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/why-did-russia-give-away-crimea-sixty-years-ago

Russia did not receive anything in return for Crimea. Apparently, it was Khrushchev's move in order to secure political support he needed within the Party.

And according to the BBC World Affairs Editor, there is no question about the will of Crimeans to go with Russia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26644082


Quote:

In modern times, Moscow has staged three major invasions: Hungary in November 1956 and Czechoslovakia in August 1968, when the Communist governments there began showing dangerously Western tendencies; and Afghanistan in December 1979, when the pro-Communist regime was on the point of collapse.

These were huge and brutal operations, involving large numbers of tanks, and sometimes great bloodshed.

The takeover of Crimea has been completely different. This was an infiltration, not an invasion. And unlike in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan it was welcomed by a large proportion of the local population.

According to a well-known opponent of Mr Putin's, the vote in Crimea to join the Russian Federation was "a referendum under the Kalashnikov". But it wasn't. The outcome was what the vast majority of Russian-speakers in Crimea really wanted, and there was little need for Kalashnikovs in the streets.   


PS
Don't blame me, this is BBC.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 21, 2014, 09:55:20 pm
Fresh news, police arrested leader of nationalistic organization White Hammer, which is part of famous Right Sector for killing road inspectors, Dark Blade mentioned several pages before.

Confrontation between new government and nationalists incoming. Without Russia I would bet on government, but as it is I'm uncertain of results.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SMEGMAR on March 21, 2014, 10:45:31 pm
It's worst than that, not only was the holocaust a fake but the whole second world war never happened! It was all invented by the Zionist, alien trained lizard illuminati to undermine einstein's invasion of Russia that never happened because the Jews invented einstein as a Gollum to allow Russia to take over America through their secret tunnels!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 21, 2014, 11:32:22 pm
Quote from: serr on March 21, 2014, 09:55:20 pm
Fresh news, police arrested leader of nationalistic organization White Hammer, which is part of famous Right Sector for killing road inspectors, Dark Blade mentioned several pages before.

Confrontation between new government and nationalists incoming. Without Russia I would bet on government, but as it is I'm uncertain of results.

Yep. Fascist militias goes to National Guard, while regular army join pro-russian population. Ready for Yugoslavia 2.0 ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 21, 2014, 11:33:41 pm
Quote
Fascist militias goes to National Guard
WHAT?  :?:

Quote
regular army join pro-russian population
WHAT?  :?:
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 11:39:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 21, 2014, 11:32:22 pm
Yep. Fascist militias goes to National Guard, while regular army join pro-russian population. Ready for Yugoslavia 2.0 ?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 21, 2014, 11:46:42 pm
Lol, that video, you hit the point :)

As for those news, White Hammer sais that guy isn't their leader, they are sorry that scum was their member and now they are even changing their name to not be associated with it.
Confrontation is postponed for some time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 22, 2014, 12:03:35 am
Ukraine's National guard recruits (roll call or whatever).. Who do you think will join ?
Trained and violent far-right militias. Clear ?

And why the army would remain loyal to an illegal government ? A government that forbide russian language. A government with no money to pay them.

I just wait and watch. You should not laugh.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 22, 2014, 12:11:21 am
No, National Guard is reformed and extended internal forces.
And far-right militias won't join it because there you follow orders and statute, not nationalistic slogans.
Actually far-right militias are worried because they think(and rightfully so) that this National Guard will be used against them sooner or later.

As for other information you posted...
Please watch video Dave posted before once more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 22, 2014, 01:05:03 am
its not correct to say but lets say that active patriot and nationalist are different things. our active patriots are retards ofcourse but they are not chocolate chip cookie. they are just angry or tired or brainwashed people.
yes, its not right to give the status "Empire of evil" to the Russia but its wrong to give the title "Empire of Evil with sweet lips" to the USA and EU. ofc both of them are telling lies but not such absurd like this one.

"evil banderovez" is not a chocolate chip cookie from the forest in 1944, its also a man with his own opinions. so there is so much expression in propaganda and in mind of many people.

government even allowed eastern regions to use the russian language as official one(if I've got it right).

// lol so chocolate chip cookie is result of auto-changer o_O
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 04:57:54 am
Quote from: Mala on March 21, 2014, 09:11:42 pm
Well personally, i have no problem that the crimean population has chosen to join the RF because they hope for a better future but i have a problem how it was done.

A better approach have would been if the crimean people had started some protests for more autonomy (even with some slighty pushes from Moscow) after the collapse of the ukrainian government.
if they had say no and had sent the police/army to put down the protest, then the crimeans had filled the victim role and the world had seen russian troops as protectors of the poor Crimea against the evil Ukraine.

Now it looks like big bad Russia bullies the little Ukraine, tells lies to the rest of the world (these are no russian troops xaxaxa) and wonders why everyone is pissed.


From the past  :P

Quote from: Butan on March 03, 2014, 02:11:04 pm
it would have been preferable if pro-russians had been starting the same kind of protest without the help of russia military, because it decreases the legitimacy of such protests.


But anyway, what you forget to point out is that there is indeed some protests ongoing in Ukraine-controlled regions, protests in Donetsk/Kharkiv/Louhansk etc are of the same caliber (althought not in size) of what was done in Maidan for the exact same reason (government not representing them, occupying/destroying administrative buildings and protesting in the streets).

Those protests were completely ignored by the mass media (except when 2 pro-maidan were killed, then blackout again, a bit like what happened in Lviv during Maidan), and they are as we speak still fighting to pressure the local authorities/the government into giving in to their demands (which range from more autonomy/anticipated local elections/annulation of laws described as anti-russian; to the organisation of referendum to join Russia or become independant, just like Crimea).
Post-Berkut police arrests pro-russian activists in the streets and in their homes, there is no "nerve point" like the Maidan place and no big infrastructure behind them nor any spectacular borderline paramilitary groups throwing molotov and beating up policemen everywhere to show off on TV.

You can only read some articles here and there in very specialized media, on how Crimea annexation kind of gave more courage to the pro-russian activists (which began their movement a month ago) for the eastern province of Ukraine to start going in the same direction. What is sure is that the new government of Ukraine is fighting this separatist movement just as bad as Yanukovitch was fighting the pro-EU at Maidan. There is still no footage of bad bad policemen giving the stick to pro-russian demo but I dont have any doubt there will be some in the near future: cant wait to hear the reaction of the pro-EU of this thread and compare with what they said to justify Maidan protests  :)

I think you were right from the beginning serr.


Quote from: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 03:30:05 pm
If you want to start this "Ukraine left USSR illegally" you should get ready to discussions how legally USSR appeared.

Thats exactly where we should take the discussion if you choose to continue to speak in illegal/legal terms. We can go back decades/centuries/millenium until we find the conclusion: a country is based on the ashes of the previous occupants. Kiev rus -> Duchy of Moscow -> Tsardom then Empire of Russia -> USSR -> Ukraine, thats just how history went.

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 21, 2014, 03:30:05 pm
2. About population of Crimea. Crimean native population are Crimean Tatars. Crimea being populated/controlled by Russians during 3 centuries is just something that you took out of the ocean. Russians terrorized native population of Crimea during the whole time Russians were there. At some point (like 10 years before giving Crimea to Ukraine) USSR deported ALL Crimean Tatars to central Asia and Siberia. Russians were the majority in Crimea only after USSR appeared. Also as far as I counted, Crimea was Russian for approximately 170 years (in fact less, because these years include all the revolutions, wars and occupations).

Totally agree, I will not try to defend USSR decisions about how they treated the Crimean region and Ukraine itself during their existence.
3 centuries is obvious gross approximation but fact is it began to impose their mark on it since the 18th century.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 22, 2014, 10:21:35 am
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 04:57:54 am

Thats exactly where we should take the discussion if you choose to continue to speak in illegal/legal terms. We can go back decades/centuries/millenium until we find the conclusion: a country is based on the ashes of the previous occupants. Kiev rus -> Duchy of Moscow -> Tsardom then Empire of Russia -> USSR -> Ukraine, thats just how history went.

Totally agree, I will not try to defend USSR decisions about how they treated the Crimean region and Ukraine itself during their existence.
3 centuries is obvious gross approximation but fact is it began to impose their mark on it since the 18th century.

I don't really want to go back that much in the history because it's pointless. Having territories in the past doesn't give you rights to take it from other countries. If you sell a house - you can't come back and throw everyone out just because you owned it before. Exactly the same thing in Crimea. USSR was a different country with different sights on pretty much everything. When Khrushchev gave away Crimea from Russia to Ukraine it was more of an ethical decision rather than geopolitical. I see it as a kind of compensation for what happened to population of Ukraine before and during WWII. Only Holodomor itself killed several millions of Ukrainians (something around 5 million people). Only 7 years passes and here comes the WWII where Ukrainian territory was the main theatre of the war between Germans and USSR, here comes 2.5 millions of dead Ukrainian soldiers only. Demographic losses during WWII were around 14 million people (from 41 to 27 million of population in Ukraine).

Ukraine actually paid its nuclear weapons to have no confrontation with Russia. After the Soviet Union got disbanded Ukraine had the 3rd nuclear arsenal after USA and Russia. Ukraine gave it away just to have guarantees of security. Now you see how Russia treats them. I don't care about how good or bad USA or EU are generally, I only see now that Russia treats Ukraine like shit and nothing more is required.

Those Russians who live there in Crimea, it's not their land. Trust me, there are a lot of families of Russian/Soviet officers who lived there for a couple of decades only if not less. And this happens while native population of Crimea once again gets buttraped and their opinion is not asked, they wanted to stay in Ukraine. The same situation can happen in Russia where in some regions there are much more Chinese people than Russians. What Russia does looks like a feast in time of plague. Population is happy and loves Putin... for now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 22, 2014, 11:37:27 am
found this article.. good read.

http://eastbook.eu/en/2014/03/material-en/featured-en/why-russia-just-cant-a-ukrainian-perspective/ (http://eastbook.eu/en/2014/03/material-en/featured-en/why-russia-just-cant-a-ukrainian-perspective/)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 22, 2014, 01:36:14 pm
Quote:

Thus when I, a citizen of Ukraine, whose sovereign territory is now steamrolled by Russian armored personnel carriers and trampled by soldiers in green camouflage, hear from the bards of Russian revanche, “How come the Americans can, and Russia can’t?,” I reply with a question of my own: “What is Russia bringing to the world? Which values underlie its present-day mission? Including, and especially, in the countries of the former USSR, Ukraine in particular.”


Mwahahahahahahahahaha

Ask Iraqi and Afghans about USA values. Unfortunately in practice they apply only to Americans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 01:44:14 pm
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Stopped reading there (much bombing in crimea?!).


Joke, I read it to the end and its a clear propaganda article on why USA can and has to be world policemen (because kawai true democracy desu) and why Russia should shut the fuck up, I mean seriously Thomek this article was shit, I hope you dont agree with most of it  :shock:  it would be a big kickback from healthy debate on this thread.



Edit: Now I understand everything  :mrgreen: seen at the end of the text:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 01:44:25 pm
Crimeans aren't sheltering terrorists and its populace isn't stuck in the 5th century BC with its goat-fucking, pedophilic, and Sha'ria law ways. Oh yeah, let's not forget about the massive double standards there. It's OK to kill homosexuals, but they have what they call "man love thursdays" when it's okay to bone your buddy.

So yeah, who cares about Afghanistan and Iraq?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 01:58:04 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 22, 2014, 01:44:25 pm
Crimeans aren't sheltering terrorists and its populace isn't stuck in the 5th century BC with its goat-fucking, pedophilic, Sha'ria law ways.

Thank you for reminding us that "War on terrorism" casus belli and cultural differences is enough to come and bomb the shit out of a country with the approval of the world!


Also if you really think that the Russian people kill homosexuals day in, day out, then you're a bigger turd than Oberyn anti-fascist cult guru.
By the same logic, we have crimes committed against homosexuals in France (and we recently gave them the right to marriage), so what? Every country has fascists, anti-homosexual, racist people  :rolleyes: they are more or less passively sustained by how the government of said country function and think, but afaik there is still no right to kill homosexuals in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 02:18:53 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 01:58:04 pm
Thank you for reminding us that "War on terrorism" casus belli and cultural differences is enough to come and bomb the shit out of a country with the approval of the world!
So are you saying those countries were not sympathetic to terrorists? And "cultural differences", yeah, sure. I guess that's what the politically correct term for "raping little boys" is these days.


Quote
lso if you really think that the Russian people kill homosexuals day in, day out, then you're a bigger turd than Oberyn anti-fascist cult guru.
By the same logic, we have crimes committed against homosexuals in France (and we recently gave them the right to marriage), so what? Every country has fascists, anti-homosexual, racist people  :rolleyes: they are more or less passively sustained by how the government of said country function and think, but afaik there is still no right to kill homosexuals in Russia.
What are you even talking about. When have I said anything about Russians killing homosexuals?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 02:20:07 pm
Yes, the world totally approved of Iraq. Even the US media was just euphoric with joy throughout the entire thing. Never a word of criticism, because journalists would mysteriously end up dead. All the NATO puppets falling in line, in service of their great Overlord, the NWO controlled, judaic-masonic fascist USA. George Bush portrayed as a messianic, strong, unfallible leader by whole of USA. Black boots goosestepping on brown necks, forevah. /s

I'm not sure why you keep referencing me by the way, I've been out of this thread for a while. All I had to say I have said. There is nothing more to comment on. You know what I think about your idiotic equivocating between Russia and the "West". You think you're so enlightened, avoiding binary black and white thinking, but you replace it by ONE shade of gray. The ultimate simplistic dumbing down of all geopolitics, absolute relativism. No good or bad outcomes, it's all the same anyways! Or at least that's the reasoning you hide behind, although I suspect you are mostly sympathetic to one side of this event.
I have yet to find out why exactly. Tovi is easy, he's just one of the many lower IQ casualties of conspiracy websites that proliferate everywhere on the web. The whole nothing is ever a spontaneous event but is always carefully orchestrated by shadowy cabals that have godlike powers of control and persuasion, just classic paranoid delusions. But you, do you have some specific knowledge about the post-soviet east? Why are you talking down to people like Thomek, who've actually experienced the difference? Have you ever even traveled outside of France?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 02:38:47 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 22, 2014, 01:44:25 pm
It's OK to kill homosexuals, but they have what they call "man love thursdays" when it's okay to bone your buddy.

Wasnt the first part directed at Russia?  :o  if not then ignore my remark  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 03:19:09 pm
Huh? Russia doesn't use Sharia law as far as I know?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 22, 2014, 03:21:08 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 02:20:07 pm
Yes, the world totally approved of Iraq. Even the US media was just euphoric with joy throughout the entire thing. Never a word of criticism, because journalists would mysteriously end up dead. All the NATO puppets falling in line, in service of their great Overlord, the NWO controlled, judaic-masonic fascist USA. George Bush portrayed as a messianic, strong, unfallible leader by whole of USA. Black boots goosestepping on brown necks, forevah. /s

Iraqi children are so grateful for your words of criticism and support.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 03:27:34 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 22, 2014, 03:21:08 pm
Iraqi children are so grateful for your words of criticism and support.

I was adressing Butan's claim that the entire world, including even most of NATO, supported the war on Iraq. Anyone with a pulse back then knows this is frankly bullshit. It's about the arguement he made, I wasn't trying to pretend mere disagreement and criticism could in any way affect the US's decision, any more than it will affect Russia this time around. But I guess you wanted to get a completely unrelated dig in at me, because you're an idiot. I leave the pretending I'm sort of victimized martyr making the world a better place merely by existing thing up to you. Nice projection skills, though. I'm sure you picked up a weapon and went to defend the poor Iraqi children firsthand, because your convictions are true and pure  :rolleyes:.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 03:50:15 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 22, 2014, 03:19:09 pm
Huh? Russia doesn't use Sharia law as far as I know?

When you look at the results of the invasion of Iraq geopolitically the big winners end up being Iran. So even if some sort of neo-con culture war ala Brezinski was it's ultimate purpose, it failed miserably. It removed the stranglehold on power of the minority sunni, directly leading to the civil war that caused the vast majority of the deaths in Iraq. Debaathification was imo the worst mistake. Basically disenfranchising all the highly placed military and governmental elite of the old government, who, given the whole tribal/family way the entire country was run, had a lot of influence that went beyond mere institutionalized authority. Blood ties were paramount, and the governmental structure was merely overlayed over these much older networks of tribal alliances and rivalries. Stripping them of their titles given to them by Saddam in no way removed any of that power. That, along with the sudden freeing up of the shiites from the yoke indirectly lead to more civilian deaths than any direct action by the US military. Anyways, despite a recent long and bloody war in which they were prominent military fodder (Iraq-Iran war), a lot of the shiite tribes and political organizations ended up with very close relationships to Iran, for very obvious cultural reasons.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 22, 2014, 03:55:35 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 04:07:41 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 03:50:15 pm
When you look at the results of the invasion of Iraq geopolitically the big winners end up being Iran. So even if some sort of neo-con culture war ala Brezinski was it's ultimate purpose, it failed miserably. It removed the stranglehold on power of the minority sunni, directly leading to the civil war that caused the vast majority of the deaths in Iraq. Debaathification was imo the worst mistake. Basically disenfranchising all the highly placed military and governmental elite of the old government, who, given the whole tribal/family way the entire country was run, had a lot of influence that went beyond mere institutionalized authority. Blood ties were paramount, and the governmental structure was merely overlayed over these much older networks of tribal alliances and rivalries. Stripping them of their titles given to them by Saddam in no way removed any of that power. That, along with the sudden freeing up of the shiites from the yoke indirectly lead to more civilian deaths than any direct action by the US military. Anyways, despite a recent long and bloody war in which they were prominent military fodder (Iraq-Iran war), a lot of the shiite tribes and political organizations ended up with very close relationships to Iran, for very obvious cultural reasons.
Well, obviously Iraq ended up being a wash for USA. I'm not saying the invasion was great or necessary, just that I don't really care either way, and that the two situations (Iraq/Astan and Crimea) are not comparable, and it makes no sense to say "Well Russia can do this because USA did that." The way USA fights wars nowadays isn't really working, either. Because neither of those countries posed a true threat to Americans at home, the military was fighting with both hands tied behind their back and blind-folded. They were forced to do the whole kinder-gentler-war thing (http://www.theloudtalker.com/?p=62 for one of the ridiculous examples) because back home nobody would've accepted the sort of warfare they'd have to do to actually "win." And I don't think we will see anything like that, not before there is a war that actually has to be won instead of just being a show of power.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 04:28:12 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 02:20:07 pm
I'm not sure why you keep referencing me by the way, I've been out of this thread for a while.All I had to say I have said. There is nothing more to comment on.


You made a great impression on me Oberyn  :P  I'm happy you said all you had to say because it was growing very repetitive. Godwin point godwin point godwin point, and if you read the article (http://eastbook.eu/en/2014/03/material-en/featured-en/why-russia-just-cant-a-ukrainian-perspective/) Thomek used its very obvious the man who wrote it completely agree with you, thus why I referenced you. I really mean it, have you read the linked text? If it doesnt blow your mind, nothing will.

The main problem I see in your logic is that you deny me comparing points between modern Russia and modern USA imperialism, but you think its obvious comparing points between modern Russia and the Third Reich :shock:


Comparing Iraq/Crimea is all nice and all, and I dont want to stop you debating on the subject, but on the "global population approval", you cant say that except France (which we are both citizen of) and some isolated minor power, anyone tried hard at discrediting Iraq war on terrorism, except some shady cable TV show and some very rare and brave journalists who did the same job as VICE NEWS in Crimea, and were mostly ridiculed in mainstream USA/EU media during the conflict. (seeing any similiraties yet again?)

Its all nice and all to say, 10 years after, that everyone knows Iraq war was bullshit, but when we were in the middle of it, dont you dare tell me it wasnt globally accepted as a "just war" or you are lying to yourself pretty bad.

At the moment we are still in the middle of Ukraine crisis, and Russia intervention is far from being globally accepted as a "just intervention" from the USA/EU block, because you know what? Double standards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 04:29:26 pm
http://www.theonion.com/articles/thanks-for-being-so-cool-about-everything,35584/?ref=auto
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 04:34:23 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 04:28:12 pm

you cant say that except France (which we are both citizen of) and some isolated minor power, anyone tried hard at discrediting Iraq war on terrorism


...ok, I'm just gonna ask, how old were you during the Iraq invasion?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 04:46:40 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 04:28:12 pm
and some very rare and brave journalists who did the same job as VICE NEWS in Crimea
Oh god. Yeah, what with U.S assassinating journalists left, right and center. Takes some real bravery.

Quote
At the moment we are still in the middle of Ukraine crisis, and Russia intervention is far from being globally accepted as a "just intervention" from the USA/EU block, because you know what? Double standards.
Maybe because it isn't an intervention? What are they intervening in? The mass murders the rest of Ukrainians were doing there? Nothing to do with double standards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 05:02:43 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 22, 2014, 04:34:23 pm
...ok, I'm just gonna ask, how old were you during the Iraq invasion?

Too young to say the truth? I was born in 1988. Fore more details send me a friendly PM  :P


Quote from: Xant on March 22, 2014, 04:46:40 pm
Oh god. Yeah, what with U.S assassinating journalists left, right and center. Takes some real bravery.
Maybe because it isn't an intervention? What are they intervening in? The mass murders the rest of Ukrainians were doing there? Nothing to do with double standards.

Takes much high education to mislead oneself that much.

Even without killing anti-iraqi war journalists, their opinions can still be conveniently ignored by mass counter-propaganda, which was what happened.

Call it invasion or something else, thats the same thing. If you wish to do your famous metaphysical digression on correct wording, talk to the hand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 22, 2014, 05:37:35 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 04:28:12 pm
[...]you cant say that except France (which we are both citizen of) and some isolated minor power, anyone tried hard at discrediting Iraq war on terrorism[...]
Yeah... guess Germany and their general "No" to any involvement in that war goes under "isolated minor power", huh? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 22, 2014, 05:39:28 pm
IIRC, of major powers, only UK supported Iraq invasion, at the cost of significant public backlash at their government?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 22, 2014, 05:43:06 pm
At least the US actually gave a formal war declaration. Russia just walked in without saying a thing.

1/3 of US disapproved the war. Why do you think in 08 the big topic was stopping the war? We don't like it, but we started it and are trying to somewhat fix the shit we fucked up.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 05:56:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 05:02:43 pm

Even without killing anti-iraqi war journalists, their opinions can still be conveniently ignored by mass counter-propaganda, which was what happened.
... It takes courage and bravery to be ignored now?

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Quote
Call it invasion or something else, thats the same thing. If you wish to do your famous metaphysical digression on correct wording, talk to the hand.
What was your point then if you are willing to call it an invasion? You were whining that the west wasn't calling it an "intervention" because of double standards. Because it isn't an intervention. It's an invasion. So...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 05:57:11 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 22, 2014, 05:37:35 pm
Yeah... guess Germany and their general "No" to any involvement in that war goes under "isolated minor power", huh? :rolleyes:

Forgot Germany indeed. So all my points are invalid ?  :P

Dont need to be a high education people to read that diplomatic map (blue nation = nation who agreed to support Iraq war)

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I would say there wasnt many "dishounorable ally" casus belli  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 05:57:49 pm
Yeah, such minor EU countries like Germany and France were against it. But hey, one minor state here or there..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 22, 2014, 06:17:17 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 05:57:11 pm
Forgot Germany indeed. So all my points are invalid ?  :P

Dont need to be a high education people to read that diplomatic map (blue nation = nation who agreed to support Iraq war)

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I would say there wasnt many "dishounorable ally" casus belli  :)

Wow, what a failure to actually know anything. only 4 nations actually invaded Iraq.
US, UK, Australia...and Poland. Every other country came AFTER the war and acted as peacekeepers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq

So, check your facts, fucking frog leg. :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 06:36:44 pm
I am well aware most didnt actively invade (USA taking 95% of the brunt of the war itself), the main beef here is that it was politically accepted that it was the good thing to do for 90% of the NATO members and other friendly states (coalition of the willing).

I'm not saying all Russia allies should actively invade Crimea  :P the hypocrisy here is that the diplomatic stance over a "moralistic" cause changes whether you are friendly/unfriendly with the agressor/defender.
USA allies mostly supported Iraq war, Russia allies mostly supports Crimean intervention, pretty cynical but true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 22, 2014, 06:40:49 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 06:36:44 pm
I am well aware most didnt actively invade (USA taking 95% of the brunt of the war itself), the main beef here is that it was politically accepted that it was the good thing to do for 90% of the NATO members and other friendly states (coalition of the willing).

Considering they got paid and other compensation....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 06:45:52 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 22, 2014, 06:36:44 pm
I am well aware most didnt actively invade (USA taking 95% of the brunt of the war itself), the main beef here is that it was politically accepted that it was the good thing to do for 90% of the NATO members and other friendly states (coalition of the willing).
Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Iraq_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opposition_in_European_countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opposition_throughout_the_world

And so on.

Now, your turn. Show us some proof that "it was politically accepted and the good thing to do"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 22, 2014, 06:53:11 pm
Your links only shows that there is anti-war people in all countries, what should I learn from this?  :rolleyes:  even when a war is unavoidable you will see people protesting in the streets to stop it asap.
Love the poll on 90% not wanting the war, did you even read the title of the poll?

The media/government were all pushing for this and won, period. Else you wouldnt even be here trying to tell me there is no possible comparisons between the two cases because there would have been no war or only concerning USA  :rolleyes:

Now on Ukraine crisis, since both media/government of "my side of the fence" and the anti-russia/anti-war people are swimming in the same direction, god forbid someone try to go counter-current!



edit: re-reading myself I shouldnt have used the "population approval" argument, it was indeed much more divided that I tried to make it appear and I was wrong. The hypocrisy lies much deeper and more totally within the way the world diplomacy worked for those 2 different war/crisis. The population was mostly just kept in check or ignored when they didnt agree.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 22, 2014, 07:37:57 pm
"Yesterday, the president met with a group he calls the coalition of the willing. Or, as the rest of the world calls them, Britain and Spain." -John Stewart
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 22, 2014, 08:34:00 pm
I don't even know where to start, Butan, when your reading comprehension is at that level.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 22, 2014, 10:30:46 pm
In Spain, that ended up sending troops (not sure if in the invasion or the multi-national "peacekeeping" force that was mentioned), there was big complaints, and it backslashed quite bad against the government, possibly leading to the 11-march 2004 bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings) that had a big influence in the result of the election that happened a few days later and where the government, right wing PP under Aznar, lost.

Anyway, this thread is not about Iraq, can we get back to Ukraine? What about the storming of the Ukrainian bases in Crimea by Russian army and pro-Russian groups? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26698754). Did they offer the Ukrainians a way out, did they just storm it, or can anyone give more information on what happened?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 22, 2014, 11:54:04 pm
Quote from: Moncho on March 22, 2014, 10:30:46 pm
What about the storming of the Ukrainian bases in Crimea by Russian army and pro-Russian groups? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26698754). Did they offer the Ukrainians a way out, did they just storm it, or can anyone give more information on what happened?

according to CNN news, the Russians claimed it was a training exercise, lol.  My mind instantly gave me the mental image of: (heavy russian accent)"dont worry friend, training exercise", next they will invade the rest of Ukraine and say "dont worry, training for real thing".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 23, 2014, 01:14:13 am
Quote from: Moncho on March 22, 2014, 10:30:46 pm
Did they offer the Ukrainians a way out, did they just storm it, or can anyone give more information on what happened?

There is many vids of guys talking directly to the officers to ask them to join the new crimean forces or leave quietly, some accepted some not, those still under siege today are probably on a short leash after the first stormings casualties and order to respond to fire with fire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 23, 2014, 01:44:40 am
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 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 23, 2014, 10:27:49 am
Funny thing, yesterday on pro-russian rally in Donetsk there was one of leaders of Latvian branch of National Bolshevik Party, Ayo Benes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party

Just look at their banner, I didn't know there was such party  :D

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 23, 2014, 10:28:41 am
Quote from: serr on March 23, 2014, 10:27:49 am
Just look at their banner, I didn't know there was such party  :D

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Hammer&Sickle, on a chocolate chip cookie style background?

What the fuck is that  :lol:

lol'd IRL
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 23, 2014, 11:34:11 am
First thought was "What the fuck are the Turks doing... Oh... ohhhh... lol" :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 23, 2014, 11:51:42 am
Quote from: serr on March 23, 2014, 10:27:49 am
Funny thing, yesterday on pro-russian rally in Donetsk there was one of leaders of Latvian branch of National Bolshevik Party, Ayo Benes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party

Just look at their banner, I didn't know there was such party  :D

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Thou shalt not name a naked king as being naked! Blasphemy!

Good find though. I just wonder, if he came of his own will or was arranged by his oberfuhrers in kremlin...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 23, 2014, 01:20:39 pm
National bolshevism?! The "internationale" must be waking up in its tomb!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 23, 2014, 02:32:46 pm
I didn't even know we had such. AFAIK, soviet symbolism is kind of banned here, just like Nazi symbolism.

Also:
http://dailycurrant.com/2014/03/07/ukraine-deploys-gay-men-to-scare-off-russians/
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 23, 2014, 04:25:02 pm
Too many words. Every war is sacred. The law of force is the only law in the world. If there is a God, only combat can be that God. Good and Bad exists not, nor life or death.

There is only action. Combat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on March 23, 2014, 06:39:40 pm
wat  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 23, 2014, 08:29:15 pm
Quote from: Logen on March 23, 2014, 06:39:40 pm
wat  :lol:
Слишком много слов. Каждая война священна. Закон силы является единственным законом в мире. Если есть Бог, только бой может быть, Бог. Хороший и плохой существует не, ни жизнь или смерть.

Существует только действие. Бой.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 23, 2014, 08:40:48 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 23, 2014, 08:29:15 pm
Слишком много слов. Каждая война священна. Закон силы является единственным законом в мире. Если есть Бог, только бой может быть, Бог. Хороший и плохой существует не, ни жизнь или смерть.

Существует только действие. Бой.

 :lol: :lol:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 23, 2014, 09:13:04 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Logen on March 23, 2014, 09:14:19 pm
thanks xent  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 24, 2014, 03:44:52 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 24, 2014, 04:25:58 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 24, 2014, 05:17:44 pm
Quote from: Yarl on March 24, 2014, 04:25:58 pm

Ha. And what did they expect? Rolling around with a flag of a country that invaded another country? These people with Russian and Soviet flags don't deserve any better treatment, separatists who only make the situation worse. We are at the borders of real war because of them, they're not any better than thieves or murderers, separatism is a crime as well, not only in Ukraine but in Russia as well. Everyone here knows what kind of people ride cars with these Russian flags. Maybe you in Russia don't know, but for my city I can tell you: people who really love Russia (i'm okay with that, but they're minority, I personally didn't meet a single one, because they're mostly very old people who still live in Soviet Union), people who got paid for that (well, the vast majority), simple separatists (bastards who hate everything Ukrainian and claim that everyone who likes are fascists), real citizens of Russian Federation (somehow there are a lot of such people in Ukraine who work for Russia here).

Also, these riders are from the other city (more than 100 km away) who got paid to ride there with Russian flags, it's not even a secret for anyone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 24, 2014, 05:34:15 pm
А что, кацапы, думаете про это: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlIW8fOUrnA
Опять пропаганда? А если нет? Кого бояться больше будете? Может таки Путин ваш президент  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Joseph Porta on March 24, 2014, 05:37:41 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 24, 2014, 05:34:15 pm
А что, кацапы, думаете про это: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlIW8fOUrnA
Опять пропаганда? А если нет? Кого бояться больше будете? Может таки Путин ваш президент  8-)

+
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 24, 2014, 06:05:52 pm
(click to show/hide)

Nice to see my city on this forum :D

Colleague of my friend was there before those events and asked self-defence what are they doing.

They responded that they are meeting pro-russian activists from Mariupol, another city from our region. That they hate to do it, but have to turn them away or it will end up like in Donetsk.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 24, 2014, 06:05:55 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 24, 2014, 05:34:15 pm
А что, кацапы, думаете про это: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlIW8fOUrnA
Опять пропаганда? А если нет? Кого бояться больше будете? Может таки Путин ваш президент  8-)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 24, 2014, 06:09:07 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 24, 2014, 06:11:41 pm
Quote from: serr on March 24, 2014, 06:09:07 pm
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 24, 2014, 06:13:47 pm
Here we go again

cyka
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 24, 2014, 06:16:21 pm

The very same events from different camera.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 24, 2014, 06:40:49 pm
You gotta love modern mobile phones - everyone`s screening everything in 720p :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on March 24, 2014, 06:45:47 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 24, 2014, 06:51:45 pm
Quote
Ha. And what did they expect?

Quote
These people with Russian and Soviet flags don't deserve any better treatment

Quote from: Yarl on February 20, 2014, 10:47:03 pm
That's how I feel about revolution(
(click to show/hide)




(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 24, 2014, 06:54:01 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 24, 2014, 05:17:44 pm
These people with Russian and Soviet flags don't deserve any better treatment, separatists who only make the situation worse. We are at the borders of real war because of them, they're not any better than thieves or murderers, separatism is a crime as well,

serious bullshit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 24, 2014, 07:29:12 pm
Dave for president! Kill all those bastard separatists paid by FSB to hold flags in their cars, they conspire against Ukraine glory, stone them I say. The nation wills it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 24, 2014, 07:36:56 pm
They didn't kill them? They took their flags, then didn't let them inside the city? Some guy wanted to attack the guy in the soviet uniform, got held back by others, the asshat walked off, exchanging words with the cameraman.

An interesting contradiction to some of the videos posted earlier of "counter-maidan" activists basically lynching a few captives.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 24, 2014, 07:44:01 pm
Actually they did let them inside the city, but searched cars to make sure they didn't bring any weapons.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 24, 2014, 08:29:22 pm
Ban all flags. Only retards use them anyways.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 25, 2014, 05:13:52 am
Rovno. Killed Oleksandr Muzychko (Sashko Bily). He forcibly put into a car. The corpse was thrown out later. http://uapress.info/uk/news/show/19571/
 The next - Yarosh?
And Tymoshenko should have less to talk on the phone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2014, 07:22:50 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 25, 2014, 05:13:52 am
Rovno. Killed Oleksandr Muzychko (Sashko Bily). He forcibly put into a car. The corpse was thrown out later. http://uapress.info/uk/news/show/19571/
 The next - Yarosh?
And Tymoshenko should have less to talk on the phone.

    I'm sure he was just drunk playing with a gun and shot himself in the heart, then went for help to the nearest cafe but died on the way dropped out of the car. There is obvious that it was an accident.
A conversation pure PR "politician who is not afraid of Russia", but in fact she just want some cash from muricans  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 25, 2014, 09:32:08 am
Quote
Rovno. Killed Oleksandr Muzychko (Sashko Bily). He forcibly put into a car. The corpse was thrown out later.

According to our ministry of internal affairs, police tried to arrest him, but he started shooting, injured one of policemen, so they had to kill him.
Good to see that police is not afraid to arrest nationalists who supported protests, but depends on their reaction it may end up quite bad.
Still if they ignored them it would be worse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 25, 2014, 10:21:28 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2014, 10:45:07 am
Quote from: Vibe on March 25, 2014, 10:21:28 am
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Vibe you just did a gloria victis
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 25, 2014, 11:00:22 am
Quote from: Christo on March 25, 2014, 10:45:07 am
Vibe you just did a gloria victis

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i cover in shame for i don't really read this thread, i just barge in to post stupid ass gifs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on March 25, 2014, 11:10:21 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 25, 2014, 05:13:52 am
Rovno. Killed Oleksandr Muzychko (Sashko Bily). He forcibly put into a car. The corpse was thrown out later. http://uapress.info/uk/news/show/19571/
 The next - Yarosh?
And Tymoshenko should have less to talk on the phone.

Yes, Tymoshenko should have less to talk on the phone.

Seriously, one would think politician with her experience would be more careful. She didn't even deny the part with "leaving not even a scorched earth where Russia stands", nor "grab the guns and kill damn Russians". And she wants to lead that country? Into what? All out war with Russia? She wants to sit down and negotiate with ANY Russian after this?

Besides, Russian media are having a field day: "This is a very good illustration of how all these freedom loving, smiling, Ukrainian nationalists really think.  Keep in mind that Tymoshenko's party "Batkivshchyna" (or Fatherland) is by far the most "moderate" (to the extend that any of these Banderites can be considered moderate) and that Klichko's Udar party is worse, that Tiagnibok's Freedom Party (aka "Social Nationalist" party) is even worse..."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 25, 2014, 12:08:40 pm
This won't end well. Every day it's getting worse, instead of going for the better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2014, 12:27:21 pm
Quote from: serr on March 25, 2014, 09:32:08 am
According to our ministry of internal affairs, police tried to arrest him, but he started shooting, injured one of policemen, so they had to kill him.
Good to see that police is not afraid to arrest nationalists who supported protests, but depends on their reaction it may end up quite bad.
Still if they ignored them it would be worse.
soon you will learn all the truth about him, as he tortured the elderly, eat children, how he shoted from a sniper rifle in maydanbrotherhood members  and gays from Berkut. Policeman who shot him down will get an apartment in Kiev, and the man standing behind Shasko the place in new government  ^^ Welcome in europe  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 25, 2014, 01:08:48 pm
Quote from: serr on March 25, 2014, 09:32:08 am
According to our ministry of internal affairs, police tried to arrest him, but he started shooting, injured one of policemen, so they had to kill him.
Good to see that police is not afraid to arrest nationalists who supported protests, but depends on their reaction it may end up quite bad.
Still if they ignored them it would be worse.

These fearless ubernationalists or Russian "self-defence", don't know what is worse. Both are plague of modern Ukraine IMO. I'm actually happy that he got killed, how weird this could sound, but scum deserves what it deserves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 25, 2014, 02:31:58 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 25, 2014, 12:08:40 pm
This won't end well. Every day it's getting worse, instead of going for the better.
How has it gotten worse in the past few days?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on March 25, 2014, 02:54:04 pm
Quote from: Vibe on March 25, 2014, 10:21:28 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 25, 2014, 03:31:51 pm
When I read about revolution hero Muzhychko deeds my stomach is rather disturbed :?
Those Maydanist are  browner and browner every day. Soon civil war will start :(
Best thing will be to separate Western Ukraine with at least  30m tall barbed wire fence from all direction before anyone gets hurt :idea:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 25, 2014, 03:37:48 pm
Quote from: Piok on March 25, 2014, 03:31:51 pm
When I read about revolution hero Muzhychko deeds my stomach is rather disturbed :?
Those Maydanist are  browner and browner every day. Soon civil war will start :(
Best thing will be to separate Western Ukraine with at least  30m tall barbed wire fence from all direction before anyone gets hurt :idea:

The best thing would be to separate you from your keyboard :oops: :D Joking, don't place "equals" between nationalists, Right Sector and Maydan. They were a part of it and not the best one. Maydan is a huge group of different people with different purposes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 25, 2014, 04:02:45 pm
Equals are slowly placing itself as more and more facts are reveled.
Maydan snipers were probably on paycheck of NATO but high EU officials knows very well about it so no wonder that Ashton was so calm about it.
I can understand Murica intention on Ukraine but why EU is going to commit suicide is beyond me. :?
If civil war will start Russia will not stand idly behind and those cronies from NATO step in, Muricans achieve theirs goal.
And meantime glorious applause from counties like Poland will commence and it will probably their last. Europe will be fucked at least for 50 years.
New "unintentional" Marshall plan will commence :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 25, 2014, 04:11:03 pm
Quote from: Piok on March 25, 2014, 04:02:45 pm
Equals are slowly placing itself as more and more facts are reveled.
Maydan snipers were probably on paycheck of NATO but high EU officials knows very well about it so no wonder that Ashton was so calm about it.
I can understand Murica intention on Ukraine but why EU is going to commit suicide is beyond me. :?
If civil war will start Russia will not stand idly behind and those cronies from NATO step in, Muricans achieve theirs goal.
And meantime glorious applause from counties like Poland will commence and it will probably their last. Europe will be fucked at least for 50 years.
New "unintentional" Marshall plan will commence :(
I don't even
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 25, 2014, 04:13:12 pm
Tovi, is it you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 25, 2014, 04:21:42 pm
The Majdan snipers were probably Japanese. They want to provoke a war between EU and Russia so that China seizes the opportunity to attack mother Russia from the then exposed behind. Then Japan does the same on China and takes back by surprise their rightful clay: Manchuria. Am I doing it right, guys?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 25, 2014, 04:24:18 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on March 25, 2014, 04:26:21 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 25, 2014, 04:21:42 pm
The Majdan snipers were probably Japanese. They want to provoke a war between EU and Russia so that China seizes the opportunity to attack mother Russia from the then exposed behind. Then Japan does the same on China and takes back by surprise their rightful clay: Manchuria. Am I doing it right, guys?
Israel

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 25, 2014, 04:28:28 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 25, 2014, 04:21:42 pm
The Majdan snipers were probably Japanese. They want to provoke a war between EU and Russia so that China seizes the opportunity to attack mother Russia from the then exposed behind. Then Japan does the same on China and takes back by surprise their rightful clay: Manchuria. Am I doing it right, guys?
Scenario similar to Syria. Peaceful protestors gets shot by evil soldiers and bullet bounce of killing them too.
And relatively free country ends in civil war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 25, 2014, 05:17:27 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 25, 2014, 04:21:42 pm
The Majdan snipers were probably Japanese. They want to provoke a war between EU and Russia so that China seizes the opportunity to attack mother Russia from the then exposed behind. Then Japan does the same on China and takes back by surprise their rightful clay: Manchuria. Am I doing it right, guys?

This is typical Japanese planning though
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 25, 2014, 05:51:04 pm
Quote from: Piok on March 25, 2014, 04:28:28 pm
Scenario similar to Syria. Peaceful protestors gets shot by evil soldiers and bullet bounce of killing them too.
And relatively free country ends in civil war.

Let them believe what they want. They want to be the good guys. Everybody wants that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 25, 2014, 06:13:20 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 25, 2014, 05:51:04 pm
Let them believe what they want. They want to be the good guys. Everybody wants that.

Everybody wants to be the one in possession of the truth too
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 25, 2014, 06:59:49 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 25, 2014, 04:21:42 pm
The Majdan snipers were probably Japanese. They want to provoke a war between EU and Russia so that China seizes the opportunity to attack mother Russia from the then exposed behind. Then Japan does the same on China and takes back by surprise their rightful clay: Manchuria. Am I doing it right, guys?

Good point.

Still, trust diplomatic major powers to have at least 10 scenarios in reserve for just the kind of thing you believe is far-stretched.
Most of the time, when someone gets an interest out of a situation, you can bet your ass that they are at least trying to get on the table, or at best pulling the strings (and there is tons of stances in-between those 2 examples).
Where/when countries are concerned/in the balance, you shouldnt deny that its basically a "No Holds Barred" fight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 25, 2014, 09:27:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 25, 2014, 06:59:49 pm
Good point.

Still, trust diplomatic major powers to have at least 10 scenarios in reserve for just the kind of thing you believe is far-stretched.
Most of the time, when someone gets an interest out of a situation, you can bet your ass that they are at least trying to get on the table, or at best pulling the strings (and there is tons of stances in-between those 2 examples).
Where/when countries are concerned/in the balance, you shouldnt deny that its basically a "No Holds Barred" fight.

Countries are run by humans too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 25, 2014, 10:05:06 pm
Russia will invade Ukraine and take over Ukraine and then kill those 3 guys 1 hammer murderers
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 26, 2014, 12:08:26 am
Ke$ha looks so manly :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 26, 2014, 03:32:09 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 26, 2014, 12:08:26 am
Ke$ha looks so manly :D

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 26, 2014, 07:07:15 am
Someone didn't like our anthem? Listen to the rock version:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 26, 2014, 10:20:52 am



And meanwhile in western countries,  People is rising against the good democracy (well, maybe not so democratic).



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 26, 2014, 11:08:42 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 26, 2014, 11:25:34 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 26, 2014, 10:20:52 am
<...>
And meanwhile in western countries,  People is rising against the good democracy (well, maybe not so democratic).

Dude, this IS the democracy. If you do not agree with something - you got a right to say that. And if you want to do civil disobedience - you do agree to get arrested, thats part of it. Riots are riots...
Questionaire for you:
1. How many protesters dead Vs participants?
2. How many policemen dead Vs participants?
3. How many wannabe separatist parts of country annexed by more powerful neighbor?
4. Why do you think there should be no riots in democracy?
5. Why do you think riots are a "rising up against democracy"?

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 26, 2014, 11:29:48 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 26, 2014, 10:20:52 am
Apes... in russia putin hold them in cages  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 26, 2014, 01:27:11 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 25, 2014, 09:27:11 pm
Countries are run by humans too.

To access to power is more often than not losing a part of your humanity.
Those who get chosen/elected/placed to the top march are not simple humans your typical good guys whose only desire is to bring perpetual peace and balance to the universe (edit for Kafein), and this is truer the more powerful a country is.



Quote from: Kuujis on March 26, 2014, 11:25:34 am
Dude, this IS the democracy. If you do not agree with something - you got a right to say that. And if you want to do civil disobedience - you do agree to get arrested, thats part of it. Riots are riots...
Questionaire for you:
1. How many protesters dead Vs participants?
2. How many policemen dead Vs participants?
3. How many wannabe separatist parts of country annexed by more powerful neighbor?
4. Why do you think there should be no riots in democracy?
5. Why do you think riots are a "rising up against democracy"?

 :rolleyes:

oh pls you  :)  good thing you werent in the thread when maidan was at its start.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 26, 2014, 02:26:13 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2014, 03:40:41 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 26, 2014, 01:27:11 pm
To access to power is more often than not losing a part of your humanity.
Those who get chosen/elected/placed to the top march are not simple humans, and this is truer the more powerful a country is.

lolwat
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on March 26, 2014, 04:41:39 pm

i'm starting to justify an eventual war
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 26, 2014, 05:21:34 pm
Anyhow Russians. If you invade Ukraine mainland just promise me 1 thing. You will torture/slaughter those 3 guys 1 hammer guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 26, 2014, 06:54:33 pm
sanctions
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 26, 2014, 07:01:43 pm
It was true!!111!1!1!!1!11!!!!111

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/03/24/putins-alleged-ukraine-annexation-plan-surfaces-online/


Ukrainians, beware  :P


Bonus:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on March 26, 2014, 08:35:44 pm
friend just showed me this  :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2014, 11:20:43 pm
Meanwhile in Russia... blogs blocked, journalists quitting their jobs or "getting in trouble with the law" in droves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 27, 2014, 09:12:31 am
26.03.2014
The Chairman of the Parliament, the interim President of Ukraine Alexander Turchinov said yesterday that along the border of Ukraine with Russia already digging an anti-tank ditch. 4 meters wide and 2 meters deep. The Governor of Donetsk billionaire Sergey Taruta, have already done such a tank ditch in their field. Worked (dug) less than one week. He said that such construction (180 km long) at a price equal to the value of 50 aircraft.
The total length of Russia's borders with Ukraine - 2250 km. This is 12 times more. So, 50*12=600 aircraft!!! 12 weeks!!! Why dig? If you can fly!! Or sell the planes… However, Ukraine asks for money. Perhaps someone wants to buy from China many of bamboo. And set along the border with Russia a lot of Wooden Stakes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 27, 2014, 09:18:02 am
these are news from the last week.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 27, 2014, 09:23:31 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 27, 2014, 09:12:31 am
26.03.2014
The Chairman of the Parliament, the interim President of Ukraine Alexander Turchinov said yesterday that along the border of Ukraine with Russia already digging an anti-tank ditch. 4 meters wide and 2 meters deep. The Governor of Donetsk billionaire Sergey Taruta, have already done such a tank ditch in their field. Worked (dug) less than one week. He said that such construction (180 km long) at a price equal to the value of 50 aircraft.
The total length of Russia's borders with Ukraine - 2250 km. This is 12 times more. So, 50*12=600 aircraft!!! 12 weeks!!! Why dig? If you can fly!! Or sell the planes… However, Ukraine asks for money. Perhaps someone wants to buy from China many of bamboo. And set along the border with Russia a lot of Wooden Stakes?

Link? Those sources that I found give no links/videos. It looks like misunderstanding. As far as I can understand, it was his reply to the question "What did you personally do for Ukrainian defence?". Anyway he sponsored it, not the government.

Also what is your opinion about kidnapping of Ukrainian officers? Those officers say that they were imprisoned and had suffered of Russian special forces persuading them to desert from the army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 27, 2014, 09:34:57 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 27, 2014, 09:23:31 am
Also what is your opinion about kidnapping of Ukrainian officers? Those officers say that they were imprisoned and had suffered of Russian special forces persuading them to desert from the army.
http://ukranews.com/ru/news/crimea_occupation/2014/03/27/118694 ... I think these officers (commanders) did not want to leave their part. Would not give up. Remained principled and honest officers. They did not want to kill. They persuaded. They're not very smart, but such officers - respect.

Do not buy in China! Buy forest here in Russia! We also wish to become richer!

By the way, the servicemen of Ukraine, not wanting to serve in the army of Russia receive monetary compensation. If you remain in the Crimea - UAH 2000. If you are traveling to Ukraine - 4000 UAH (+compensation of expenses for moving).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 27, 2014, 10:14:34 am
Interesting read on the Nationalists of the "new government":

http://www.politicaljack.com/threads/putin-and-obama-and-the-ukraine.66682/ (http://www.politicaljack.com/threads/putin-and-obama-and-the-ukraine.66682/)

Quote
While we are critical of far right activities on the EuroMaidan, we are, nevertheless, disturbed by a dangerous tendency in too many international media reports dealing with the recent events in Ukraine. An increasing number of lay assessments of the Ukrainian protest movement, to one degree or another, misrepresents the role, salience and impact of Ukraine’s far right within the protest movement. Numerous reports allege that the pro-European movement is being infiltrated, driven or taken over by radically ethnocentrist groups of the lunatic fringe. Some presentations create the misleading impression that ultra-nationalist actors and ideas are at the core or helm of the Ukrainian protests. Graphic pictures, juicy quotes, sweeping comparisons and dark historical references are in high demand. They are combined with a disproportionate consideration of one particularly visible, yet politically minor segment within the
confusing mosaic that is formed by the hundreds of thousands of protesters with their different motivations, backgrounds and aims.
Quote
By fundamentally discrediting one of the most impressive mass actions of civil disobedience in the history of Europe, such reports help to provide a pretext for Moscow’s political involvement, or, perhaps, even for a Russian military intervention into Ukraine, like in Georgia in 2008. (In a revealing blog, Anton Shekhovtsov has recently detailed the activities of some obviously pro-Kremlin institutions, connections and authors. See “Pro-Russian network behind the anti-Ukrainian defamation campaign” at http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html. Probably, there are more of them.)

Found this cuz it was mentioned in our local newspaper this morning and has been signed - together with others - by Iosif Sissels, researcher of hate speech and antisemitism, Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities (VAAD) at Kyiv, Ukraine.

As always, take it with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 27, 2014, 10:16:14 am
Quote from: Butan on March 26, 2014, 01:27:11 pm
<...>
oh pls you  :)  good thing you werent in the thread when maidan was at its start.

Questions were not about Maidan, which indeed got ugly. Rather - can you see the same ugliness happening in ... Paris? London? Riot control forced stripping and killing protesters? Using live ammo?

The idea is that protests and civil disobedience IS part of democracy and I cannot understand why OP thinks its not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 27, 2014, 02:28:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 27, 2014, 10:16:14 am
Questions were not about Maidan, which indeed got ugly. Rather - can you see the same ugliness happening in ... Paris? London? Riot control forced stripping and killing protesters? Using live ammo?

A protest isnt a riot, and a riot isnt a revolt. Where we draw the line is totally up to interpretation : trust the demo to deem themselves peaceful protesters whatever happens, while the government will treat them as dangerous rebels day 1.
But a siege with violence and destruction where the people numbers by the tens of thousands and took control of parts/totality of one or more cities, is a revolt to me.
You can bet your ass that whether you're in Paris or in London or wherever, the government will defend itself tooth and nail.
Live ammo taboo works only until a point, thinking western countries are never going to use force in the same context is naive at best, at worst propagandist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 27, 2014, 02:33:06 pm
In Latvia, a protest of some 20k+ people is enough to make a PM resign, regardless of the cause or argumentation. I imagine, that it is similar (scaled according to size of country) in most countries regarded as being actually democratic. Government officials are not supposed to hold on to their posts with gun and baton.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 27, 2014, 02:35:06 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 27, 2014, 02:28:41 pm
A protest isnt a riot, and a riot isnt a revolt. Where we draw the line is totally up to interpretation : trust the demo to deem themselves peaceful protesters whatever happens, while the government will treat them as dangerous rebels day 1.
But a siege with violence and destruction where the people numbers by the tens of thousands and took control of parts/totality of one or more cities, is a revolt to me.
You can bet your ass that whether you're in Paris or in London or wherever, the government will defend itself tooth and nail.
Live ammo taboo works only until a point, thinking western countries are never going to use force in the same context is naive at best, at worst propagandist.
Just send some mysterious snipers to shoot at protesters and police to London or Paris and you will see some live ammo in action :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on March 27, 2014, 02:53:26 pm
DaveUKR if Russia takes over whole of Ukraine will u change ur name to DaveRUS?

Also inb4 Russia takes over Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania , Poland and Belarus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 27, 2014, 03:17:58 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on March 27, 2014, 02:53:26 pm
DaveUKR if Russia takes over whole of Ukraine will u change ur name to DaveRUS?

Also inb4 Russia takes over Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania , Poland and Belarus.

DaveSU !!!
And Odessa was and will again become the most cheerful and positive town of our country!
 :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 27, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 27, 2014, 02:33:06 pm
In Latvia, a protest of some 20k+ people is enough to make a PM resign, regardless of the cause or argumentation. I imagine, that it is similar (scaled according to size of country) in most countries regarded as being actually democratic. Government officials are not supposed to hold on to their posts with gun and baton.

Except if 20k is the majority of unhabitants of Latvia, I dont see how its a good argument for "democratic" process. Its a just a fight between the population and political authority. If for X reasons the population wins, its not because of justice or democracy only. Not all revolts succeed, however just their motives are. The Paris Commune of 1871 is a good example (minus the period difference and everything that comes with it).

There is a reason no constitution have an article which says : whenever 1% of the population goes in the streets, disband government. Noone can decide, outside of the law, who should govern a country. If you want to change something outside of the law, you become an outlaw.

Laws are different countries to countries, but this truth doesnt change.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 27, 2014, 04:06:22 pm
Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania to unite in one state with Russia, will not. Sprats - this is very bad food. And people in these countries is also harmful. However, in Finland, kind and strong person... And Alaska people are lovely.
 :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 27, 2014, 04:09:22 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 27, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
Except if 20k is the majority of unhabitants of Latvia, I dont see how its a good argument for "democratic" process. Its a just a fight between the population and political authority. If for X reasons the population wins, its not because of justice or democracy only. Not all revolts succeed, however just their motives are. The Paris Commune of 1871 is a good example (minus the period difference and everything that comes with it).

There is a reason no constitution have an article which says : whenever 1% of the population goes in the streets, disband government. Noone can decide, outside of the law, who should govern a country. If you want to change something outside of the law, you become an outlaw.

Laws are different countries to countries, but this truth doesnt change.
You missed the point. In a democratic country, it should never have to come to rioting of such scale, the government should resign to prevent that.

I also sincerely hope you meant to use "unless" rather than that "if" there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 27, 2014, 04:17:41 pm
German chancellor against imposition of economic sanctions on Russia (http://en.itar-tass.com/world/725463)

Most Germans against sanctions on Russia — pollster (http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723369)

But funniest thing I've read in last couple of weeks is how IMF is going to send Ukraine 18 billion $$ of "aid".

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/world/europe/ukraine-bailout.html?_r=0

Poor Ukrainians, they obviously don't understand what is IMF. Certainly not a Red Cross...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on March 27, 2014, 05:13:58 pm
Soon Ukraine will be in debt trap like many counties in EU :idea:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 27, 2014, 05:58:29 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 27, 2014, 04:09:22 pm
You missed the point. In a democratic country, it should never have to come to rioting of such scale, the government should resign to prevent that.

I also sincerely hope you meant to use "unless" rather than that "if" there.

It may be because I'm french but I dont see the difference between if and unless  :D my point was, out of the boundaries of the law, a government can be changed only through force (force of arms, force of will, even peaceful actions can be a force for change). To say a protest should always cause resigning from office if one is to uphold a democratic code of conduct, is for me one of the biggest retardation of today political system.
Basically, with enough support from media and population, and more often than not exterior support, you can replace whole government. The elections are already quite easy to exploit to manipulate the masses, but add this and that and you just put big holes in your laws that bad people will exploit. Ukraine isnt the first to fall to this and others have and will in the future, and more often than not what followed was utter bullshit and complete corruption of the initial "legitimate" movement.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 27, 2014, 06:10:45 pm
That is completely beside the point.
Quote from: Butan on March 27, 2014, 02:28:41 pm
A protest isnt a riot, and a riot isnt a revolt. Where we draw the line is totally up to interpretation : trust the demo to deem themselves peaceful protesters whatever happens, while the government will treat them as dangerous rebels day 1.
But a siege with violence and destruction where the people numbers by the tens of thousands and took control of parts/totality of one or more cities, is a revolt to me.
You can bet your ass that whether you're in Paris or in London or wherever, the government will defend itself tooth and nail.
Live ammo taboo works only until a point, thinking western countries are never going to use force in the same context is naive at best, at worst propagandist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 27, 2014, 08:08:58 pm
If I read well, your point was on "unless" and "if", and that when a riot happens to a big scale the government should resign, I gave my view on both so what more?
You quote myself like I dont know what I'm saying  :rolleyes: maybe you forgot to add a text in your empty message?
If not then ignore this one, because I see no basis on which to debate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 27, 2014, 08:16:21 pm
In Kiev there is a capture of the Verkhovna Rada. It is now!!!
Russian TV news show it live... Пиздец похоже, понеслось.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 27, 2014, 08:39:58 pm
It is not capture yet, probably they will stop with some promises given, but still it is very, very bad :(

В кои-то веки я с тобой полностью согласен
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 27, 2014, 08:43:04 pm
You mean capture as in, physical assault?  :shock: Link please
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 27, 2014, 08:45:12 pm
Right now there are protests right near entrance, peaceful at the moment, their main demand is resignment of minister of internal affairs, but it is quite possible they they will start assault.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 27, 2014, 08:48:58 pm
Well, things calmed down a bit, there will be no assault tonight, but if minister of internal affairs won't be resigned tomorrow - there will be.

Very difficult situation in which I don't see good solution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 27, 2014, 09:04:25 pm
Quote from: serr on March 27, 2014, 08:39:58 pm
В кои-то веки я с тобой полностью согласен
Серр, я и не просил тебя со мной соглашаться. Меня интересует Украина. А не твоё мнение о моих высказываниях. Ты бы лучше рассказал что у тебя в Запорожье на отвалах происходит. Ты же аж мочишься когда беспредел в твоём городе показывают. А тут вдруг молчишь. Боишься кого? Ждёшь кто победит? Чемодан-вокзал- Германия, к Молли в услужение. Тебе не нужна Украина. Вот как-то так  :!:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 27, 2014, 09:07:15 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 27, 2014, 08:08:58 pm
If I read well, your point was on "unless" and "if", and that when a riot happens to a big scale the government should resign, I gave my view on both so what more?
You quote myself like I dont know what I'm saying  :rolleyes: maybe you forgot to add a text in your empty message?
If not then ignore this one, because I see no basis on which to debate.
Well, apparently you don't know what you're saying.

Let me rephrase what you said: if a situation, like Maidan, was to happen in any other country, the same things would happen, with government crackdowns and whatnot. I said it wouldn't, giving one example. I never said it's "a good argument for democratic process" or what have you. Then you went into offtopic about other things. Does your memory not extend past the last 2 posts?

About "if" and "unless", using "if" there implies, that 20k is the majority of population of LV :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 27, 2014, 09:39:55 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: djavo on March 27, 2014, 10:02:34 pm
I would really hate that Dave goes into war against Ivanich. Come on guys there must be solution. Maybe muricans can help? I heard they bring freedom all over the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 27, 2014, 11:02:55 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 27, 2014, 09:07:15 pm
Well, apparently you don't know what you're saying.

Let me rephrase what you said: if a situation, like Maidan, was to happen in any other country, the same things would happen, with government crackdowns and whatnot. I said it wouldn't, giving one example. I never said it's "a good argument for democratic process" or what have you. Then you went into offtopic about other things. Does your memory not extend past the last 2 posts?

About "if" and "unless", using "if" there implies, that 20k is the majority of population of LV :rolleyes:

Alright, I didnt understand that.

Why riot police was deployed in Maidan, but nothing in Latvia? Difficult to answer without more details and if those details are nothing compared to what was Maidan I dont understand the comparison.. But I think its a bit off-topic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 28, 2014, 08:17:49 am

That's what was yesterday at the doorstep of parliament
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 28, 2014, 08:42:15 am
The danger I see is that people won't stop rioting. Whenever some guy makes an unpopular but maybe needed decision, people will grab their wooden sticks and try to storm the building.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 28, 2014, 08:46:08 am
Дейв,
О задержанных офицерах. Хочу ответить тебе на русском. Офицеры реально, под предлогом проведения переговоров, были ИЗОЛИРОВАНЫ от личного состава. Так было надо. И ты не меньше меня понимаешь, что это сильные люди которые смогли сохранить, не побоюсь этого слова, «боевой дух» своих подразделений, в эту хреновую «годину». Но и они и Шойгу, понимают, что дальнейшая эскалация противостояния в Крыму, к хорошему не приведёт. Украинским офицерам-командирам, предоставили (пусть даже немного насильно) возможность не только сохранить лицо, но и избежать не правильных, но «необходимых» действий военного человека. А они военные люди. И возможно слово ЧЕСТЬ ОФИЦЕРА, так часто забываемое на постсоветском пространстве, для них что-то значит. Даже уверен. Хотя конечно найдутся пиздюки которые расскажут как эти дядьки бухали и т.д. и т.п.…
Силы самообороны в Крыму разоружены и распущены. Уже несколько дней как. В России оружие только у кого положено. И каждый мародер, бандит или экстремист преследуется и несёт наказание согласно закона. Вооруженные не законные формирования иногда уничтожаются, но всегда без особого оповещения населения, без реалити шоу. Украинские военнослужащие, кто желал, покинули территорию Россию. Конечно многих вербовали остаться, пусть не в Крыму, но в армии России. К 2017 году у нас должно быть не менее 470 000 контрактников в армии. Сейчас менее 250 000. У нас вообще не хватает населения желающего (и могущего) как работать, так и служить в наших, так сказать, экстремальных условиях.
Не смею отвергать, и даже надеюсь, что именно этим «пленённым» офицерам, было предложено Россией, навести порядок в стране. За такими пойдут люди. Пойдет армия и милиция. Пойдут многие люди даже из «правого сектора». Россия чуток поможет где надо. Личности на Украине сейчас есть. Но сила и управляемость только у Правого сектора. А власть и бабло у прозападной команды. Значит есть конфликт. И большая вероятность ввода миротворцев НАТО, по просьбе временного правительства. НАТО не нравится ни нам (россиянам), ни правому сектору. Но НАТО, наверное, единственное средство для богатых и властвующих на Украине остаться при своём.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 28, 2014, 08:48:38 am
Quote from: Butan on March 27, 2014, 11:02:55 pm
Alright, I didnt understand that.

Why riot police was deployed in Maidan, but nothing in Latvia? Difficult to answer without more details and if those details are nothing compared to what was Maidan I dont understand the comparison.. But I think its a bit off-topic.

Yanukovich organized tracking and systematic repressions against participants of Maidan. One of those was excessive use (or threat thereof) of force to intimidate protesters. And there is a difference between repressing protesters Vs ensuring serious riots do not happen. And this is the key difference of riot forces in west Vs those used by Yanukovich. Accordingly - reaction of populace to both differ a lot. And this is where everything got ugly IMO.

To sum up: government in Latvia did not see a use for riot forces, because they did not plan to suppress the protest and vice versa in Ukraine. There is your difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 28, 2014, 01:48:29 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 28, 2014, 08:42:15 am
The danger I see is that people won't stop rioting. Whenever some guy makes an unpopular but maybe needed decision, people will grab their wooden sticks and try to storm the building.

That would be bad right? Like what happened 2 months ago?  :rolleyes:
Destabilizing the political stability of a country lead to more unstability, thus new events are more likely to happen. Until most of everyone is happy with what they have, or until a new stability is found through the use of authority and force, something that the new protesters of this post-berkut government will find soon.


Quote from: Kuujis on March 28, 2014, 08:48:38 am
To sum up: government in Latvia did not see a use for riot forces, because they did not plan to suppress the protest and vice versa in Ukraine. There is your difference.

To sum up: you're comparing apples and oranges, until you give more comparison points that "Latvia did riot, no police and resign; Ukraine did riot, police and no resign".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 28, 2014, 02:06:33 pm
Riot police was deployed in Latvia, however they did not assault the protesters, merely held them back from government buildings and later on made arrests against some rioters (earlier on, i posted about how the riots were probably incited by an outside force, with one prominent rioter making an interesting reappearance in eastern Ukraine), that were breaking the law - in effect, not riling up the crowd, but pacifying it. This was not done in Ukraine, with government hired thugs attacking the protesters and riot police attempting to disperse the protests with force. I believe most of western countries would adopt the former aproach. Which is my argument against your earlier post.

In how many forms will i have to rephrase this?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 28, 2014, 02:10:14 pm
Austerity has been voted. So now your money value nothing. We come to buy your land. Muahahaha  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 28, 2014, 02:14:33 pm
Do you even understand what austerity means?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 28, 2014, 02:46:57 pm
Quote
Austerity has been voted
Quote
So now your money value nothing.
Quote
We come to buy your land.

Could you please explain connection between these statements?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 28, 2014, 03:03:11 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 28, 2014, 02:06:33 pm
In how many forms will i have to rephrase this?

Implying you posted any background informations before that one post, except guys protested and PM resigned. GG. Off-topic, I end there until we have full informations and we can healthily compare. And if you supply me with more informations, dont worry, I'm not going to just say that "You're trying very hard to equalize both situations, as if both had the exact same amount of truth to them and both stood on the same moral ground.". Hope you like my 2 page memory  :lol:



I'm not sure what Tovi means exactly by that:

Quote from: Tovi on March 28, 2014, 02:10:14 pm
Austerity has been voted. So now your money value nothing. We come to buy your land. Muahahaha  :twisted:


But probably its linked to a devaluation of your national currency? More information would be neat  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 28, 2014, 08:58:28 pm
Well I think any politician provoking such protest as Maidan has done something wrong, and in any would have to step down in most decent countries.

I think he has been working for the Russians more or less since the beginning though. Now he wants referendums in eastern Ukraine as well.. Doing a good job for his country this fellow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2014, 09:50:11 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 28, 2014, 02:14:33 pm
Do you even understand what austerity means?
It's Tovi, do you have to ask?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 29, 2014, 10:35:12 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/03/28/ukraine-welcomes-imf-austerity-regime/

Enjoy IMF, your new master  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 29, 2014, 11:49:39 am
Good news, Klitschko won't run for president, he will support Poroshenko instead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 29, 2014, 01:02:43 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 29, 2014, 01:41:48 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 29, 2014, 10:35:12 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/03/28/ukraine-welcomes-imf-austerity-regime/

Enjoy IMF, your new master  :twisted:
Tovi, Good article. Interesting opinions.
However, the increase in gas prices is very small evil. In Russia, for many years, the payment for public utilities is $ 150-200 a month. But the increase in tax rates - that hurts. It is easy to calculate. Real wages will fall by 1.5 times. Even agricultural workers will not protect, but will increase taxes and charges. And agriculture will become very expensive. Products for Ukrainian citizens will become more profitable to buy in Moldova.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 29, 2014, 02:16:30 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 29, 2014, 01:41:48 pm
Tovi, Good article. Interesting opinions.
However, the increase in gas prices is very small evil. In Russia, for many years, the payment for public utilities is $ 150-200 a month. But the increase in tax rates - that hurts. It is easy to calculate. Real wages will fall by 1.5 times. Even agricultural workers will not protect, but will increase taxes and charges. And agriculture will become very expensive. Products for Ukrainian citizens will become more profitable to buy in Moldova.
You are funny. Manipulating gas prices based on political gains and cripling an already wounded "friendly" slav nation is truly "very small evil". At least in the eyes of brainwashed :)

As for "In Russia, for many years, the payment for public utilities is $ 150-200 a month." - the hell you saying? I would object and ask for some proper statistics links, but a quick google tells me you are lying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_in_Europe_by_monthly_average_wage, Russia[52]    Net 723$    Gross (i.e. with "utility taxes n all") 831, total part of taxes - 108$ on average. If not for earths stink gas and shells rotten 100mil yrs ago - half your army and general populace would be hungry  :rolleyes: Fast forward 50 years.... You will see it and hopefully feel it :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 29, 2014, 03:09:52 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 29, 2014, 02:16:30 pm
You are funny. Manipulating gas prices based on political gains and cripling an already wounded "friendly" slav nation is truly "very small evil". At least in the eyes of brainwashed :)

Oh please you, US/EU can apply unilateral economical sanctions to Russia, and Russia cant do the same?

They are both using money as a weapon, instead of armies, and both wants the other to say "pls stap I yield, u can has wat u want", and until then the citizens of targeted countries are going to have harder life because of price/supply problems. The only difference is in the principal "ammunition" used: Russian has gas (restricting exportation* to politically compatible customers), EU/US has market control (freezing assets and restricting exchanges of Russian citizens and enterprises).

Why should I feel sadder about US/EU/Ukrainian economy going in the shit than the Russian economy exactly? YOU are brainwashed, if your answer is that in a case its justified, in the other its not.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 03:37:01 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 29, 2014, 03:09:52 pm
Oh please you, US/EU can apply unilateral economical sanctions to Russia, and Russia cant do the same?

They are both using money as a weapon, instead of armies, and both wants the other to say "pls stap I yield, u can has wat u want", and until then the citizens of targeted countries are going to have harder life because of price/supply problems. The only difference is in the principal "ammunition" used: Russian has gas (restricting importation to politically compatible customers), EU/US has market control (freezing assets and restricting exchanges of Russian citizens and enterprises).

Why should I feel sadder about US/EU/Ukrainian economy going in the shit than the Russian economy exactly? YOU are brainwashed, if your answer is that in a case its justified, in the other its not.

Won't effect US economy. We have more resources than Russia does land. Fuck, we could out supply Russia's Natural gas if we had the logistics to.(most the world to. It helps being the largest Coal and Natural Gas country in the world)

We are doing a much better job fucking our own economy up than sanctions are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on March 29, 2014, 03:40:18 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 03:37:01 pm
Won't effect US economy. We have more resources than Russia does land. Fuck, we could out supply Russia's Natural gas if we had the logistics to.(most the world to. It helps being the largest Coal and Natural Gas country in the world)

We are doing a much better job fucking our own economy up than sanctions are.

Coal and fracked natural gas? Have fun being like Beijing but also with the added bonus of your drinking water having this annoying habit of catching fire and giving you cancer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 29, 2014, 03:49:17 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 03:37:01 pm
We are doing a much better job fucking our own economy up than sanctions are.

Love the factual irony of muricans on their own country sometimes :D

Yea, I didnt mean that Russia/US/EU as a whole are going to crumble just for some economical sanctions (still a low probability, especially if the sanctions grows in scale). But, either locally (country per country, region per region) or globally (the aforementioned blocks) there gonna be economical victims in the form of poorer people and less afordable modern day items/services, if the economical sanctions manages to hit something important.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 29, 2014, 04:05:54 pm
Mr.Kuujis On demand of the EU, Ukraine increases gas prices for households and for enterprises. Previously, Ukraine refused the help of Russia (15 000 000 000 dollars). 2 000 000 000 dollars Ukraine has already received. However, refused to comply with the terms of the contract for discounted gas from Russia. And since April 1, the Russian natural gas will cost almost as much as for the EU, not much less. You think all the troubles in the world and in Ukraine is Russia's fault? But Russia is not the EU.  The EU and the USA supplied Ukraine conditions. Ukraine makes the choice itself...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 04:06:40 pm
Quote from: Swaggart on March 29, 2014, 03:40:18 pm
Coal and fracked natural gas? Have fun being like Beijing but also with the added bonus of your drinking water having this annoying habit of catching fire and giving you cancer.

Nope. We have more regular natural gas than anyone else. If we count Fracked(which IS getting better at extracting w/ less pollution) it goes up more.

Quote from: Butan on March 29, 2014, 03:49:17 pm
Love the factual irony of muricans on their own country sometimes :D

Hey, we can't help it. When you can get 40+ year politicians, of course you're going to get a country that messes itself up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 29, 2014, 04:08:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 29, 2014, 03:49:17 pm
Love the factual irony of muricans on their own country sometimes :D

Yea, I didnt mean that Russia/US/EU as a whole are going to crumble just for some economical sanctions (still a low probability, especially if the sanctions grows in scale). But, either locally (country per country, region per region) or globally (the aforementioned blocks) there gonna be economical victims in the form of poorer people and less afordable modern day items/services, if the economical sanctions manages to hit something important.

I don't see that happening if the West's sanctions stay targeted at Putin's circle of advisors and oligarchs. I think it's a very good thing and may even prove more effective than penalizing the Russian people for the actions of the autocrat. I doubt the state of the economy is more important than the studies of one's children or real estate investments abroad for the decision makers in Kremlin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 29, 2014, 04:12:27 pm
And those few people have done what exactly? Guilty of being born in Russia?

If even only one of them have done nothing, I can not see how you can defend said economical sanctions, however "small" the targeting size is.
Its just cynical "take them by the balls" political move.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 04:15:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 29, 2014, 04:12:27 pm
And those few people have done what exactly? Guilty of being born in Russia?

Not bothering to think outside what they are fed. Course, it's human nature to be sheeple due to the fact that it's "safe" for "me." Why try and be different when it's easier to just not draw attention?

That's why Civil unrest at the Maidan scale is HARD to achieve if you don't PUSH people to do it. Most will just want to go to work, do their job, go home and repeat every day.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 29, 2014, 04:17:47 pm
Quote
On demand of the EU, Ukraine increases gas prices for households and for enterprises.

That's right, had to be done years ago. Actually, gas for households right now is much cheaper than it is in Russia, though we buy it from Russia. Strange, isn't it.

Quote
Previously, Ukraine refused the help of Russia (15 000 000 000 dollars).

You can call it this way, afaik it was Russia who rufused to give more money after change of government, which is completely uderstandable.

Quote
And since April 1, the Russian natural gas will cost almost as much as for the EU, not much less.

In fact it will cost more than for any EU country. That is the reason why we will buy some gas from EU.

Quote
You think all the troubles in the world and in Ukraine is Russia's fault? But Russia is not the EU.  The EU and the USA supplied Ukraine conditions. Ukraine makes the choice itself...

Most troubles in Ukraine is Ukraine's fault. Russia had some part in it, but most of the work we did by ourselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 29, 2014, 09:49:18 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 29, 2014, 03:09:52 pm
Oh please you, US/EU can apply unilateral economical sanctions to Russia, and Russia cant do the same?

They are both using money as a weapon, instead of armies, and both wants the other to say "pls stap I yield, u can has wat u want", and until then the citizens of targeted countries are going to have harder life because of price/supply problems. The only difference is in the principal "ammunition" used: Russian has gas (restricting importation to politically compatible customers), EU/US has market control (freezing assets and restricting exchanges of Russian citizens and enterprises).

Why should I feel sadder about US/EU/Ukrainian economy going in the shit than the Russian economy exactly? YOU are brainwashed, if your answer is that in a case its justified, in the other its not.
Lets just say, that EU (and most definitely - all civilized world) has quite some rules agains monopolies enforcing what ever price it wants on the dependent party. You do not feel problems and do not feel the need to be paranoid, because russia is not going to do this to le frenchies, but trust me - when it comes to former soviet block countries - its completely understandable to pay highest prices for gas in EU, even though we are closest to the source. I DO NOT GIVE A FUCK what russia wants my country to do. I want to choose on my own. I saw too much of the KGB guys choosing for other.  And this is why I have no problems paying highest (well, now UKR leads :) ) prices to actually have a chance to CHOOSE.

Did I say you should care? No. Was I ironic, about friendly nation treating other friendly nation as an enemy? Yes. Did you appreciate the jest? No :)

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 29, 2014, 04:05:54 pm
Mr.Kuujis On demand of the EU, Ukraine increases gas prices for households and for enterprises. Previously, Ukraine refused the help of Russia (15 000 000 000 dollars). 2 000 000 000 dollars Ukraine has already received. However, refused to comply with the terms of the contract for discounted gas from Russia. And since April 1, the Russian natural gas will cost almost as much as for the EU, not much less. You think all the troubles in the world and in Ukraine is Russia's fault? But Russia is not the EU.  The EU and the USA supplied Ukraine conditions. Ukraine makes the choice itself...
Yes, because that subsidy thing was unsustainable and this change was long overdue... Except - there were TWO sources of increase: removal of subsidies and the one you comfortably forgot - 2x increase in what russia sells to Ukraine. Given normal scenario - former friendly nation would agree to some transitional plan, instead of increasing source gas prices 2x just because. You know... just to keep everyone together... like... friendly kind together?  8-) And now you have fucked 1 of 3 (?) friendlies in the ass because... why exactly?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 29, 2014, 10:59:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 29, 2014, 04:12:27 pm
And those few people have done what exactly? Guilty of being born in Russia?

If even only one of them have done nothing, I can not see how you can defend said economical sanctions, however "small" the targeting size is.
Its just cynical "take them by the balls" political move.

I don't think you understand who we are talking about here.

And tell me, how is it any less cynical to make life harder for all Russians, when you can just target those that are in power ? I mean, seriously ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 30, 2014, 01:12:09 am
Quote from: Kafein on March 29, 2014, 10:59:45 pm
I don't think you understand who we are talking about here.

I dont know, never seen a list of the people targeted, but I'm pretty sure they killed noone recently. We are talking big money, big power, not really the guys who were on the field and ate ukrainian babies, so they are just political targets, thats where the cynism comes since they did no alleged crimes.

Never said there was a "cynical" scale of 1 to 10 and targeting all russian would be better, mind you. As much as you never said that they targeted a few people only because they have empathy with the russian people and want to protect them (I hope you dont think that  :lol:).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 30, 2014, 07:41:21 am
Quote from: Butan on March 30, 2014, 01:12:09 am
I dont know, never seen a list of the people targeted, but I'm pretty sure they killed noone recently. We are talking big money, big power, not really the guys who were on the field and ate ukrainian babies, so they are just political targets, thats where the cynism comes since they did no alleged crimes.

Never said there was a "cynical" scale of 1 to 10 and targeting all russian would be better, mind you. As much as you never said that they targeted a few people only because they have empathy with the russian people and want to protect them (I hope you dont think that  :lol:).
You presume, that annexation of Crymea is OK and russia acted within her international agreements and in accordance with international law. Which it did not. And that is why there are some sanctions agains ruling elite imposed by the immoral rotten west. Where do you see a problem with that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 09:31:50 am
Kuujis
Gas is a commodity. As oil, coffee (as sprats  :mrgreen: ). The buyer (such as Slovakia or Greece) purchases the goods is stable, the buyer shall pay at the time, the buyer is predictable. Such a partner ensures the success of your business. It makes sense to invest, to go on some financial costs (modernization of production, increasing of capacities, changing modes of production). The seller will make a reserve for the buyer, seller will create pleasant conditions for a permanent client. The seller will sell cheaper, that would not losing customers.
However, if the buyer breaches the terms of payment or says: «Seller bad. We will not buy from this seller. We are building a new production. We will not pay. We have other vendors...». How to have done business with this client? Not to sell him? We should sell, for want of money. The production should be tailored to the needs of this client as well. But the risks, financial and other, should be compensated by the price of goods. Who should pay for such financial risks? All? No, this is bad buyer.
Ukraine wants to buy from Slovakia. Excellent! Russia (for political purposes) will increase the price for Slovakia? No. Slovakia is a reliable business partner. Payment is always on time. Gas deliveries to Ukraine, finally, will not free. Slovakia, probably, even will receive a discount.  8-)


Paradoxically, benefits and bonuses will receive not only Russia, Slovakia and Ukraine. EU politicians say, «Look, we won evil Russia! Russia not to create obstacles to reverse supply of gas to Ukraine! Russia was scared and reduced the price for Slovakia! The EU is power!»
Obama will also say: «the Efforts of America, the efforts of all progressive mankind, the efforts of the civilized world brought victory! Russia punished! We have proved Russia that in our world there is no place for abuse of power!»  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 30, 2014, 02:02:33 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 30, 2014, 07:41:21 am
You presume, that annexation of Crymea is OK and russia acted within her international agreements and in accordance with international law. Which it did not. And that is why there are some sanctions agains ruling elite imposed by the immoral rotten west. Where do you see a problem with that?


annnnnnnnnnnnd back to square 1.
I dont have any new arguments to provide to destroy yours, I feel I have repeated myself enough; until there is new elements to discuss instead of guys trying to get the moral high ground...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 30, 2014, 02:37:42 pm

This is the 20th dispatch now, wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 03:30:59 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 30, 2014, 02:37:42 pm

This is the 20th dispatch now, wow.
Serr, this report is propaganda?
The most intelligent person on the Maidan - old woman (it shows in the end of the clip).
Ukrainians, really, want to attack Russia? This is ridiculous, and no one takes it seriously? Yes, but it just yet funny.
However, before the attack on Russia, Ukrainians must build a line of fortifications «Yatsenyuk-Tymoshenko» on the banks of the Dnieper river. And prepare a «caches» and forest camp in Western Ukraine for «heroes jarosz». While there is no money. «Progressive mankind», «the Civilized world», not to give Ukraine the money! Please! Russia will not be able to take into your composition so many new territories. We will become poor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on March 30, 2014, 03:44:14 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 04:06:40 pm
Nope. We have more regular natural gas than anyone else. If we count Fracked(which IS getting better at extracting w/ less pollution) it goes up

Uh no not even close. Russia and Iran have by the far the most. The US is 5th in regular natural gas reserves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 30, 2014, 03:54:03 pm
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you cant tell :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 04:01:09 pm
Quote
Serr, this report is propaganda?
The most intelligent person on the Maidan - old woman (it shows in the end of the clip).
Ukrainians, really, want to attack Russia? This is ridiculous, and no one takes it seriously? Yes, but it just yet funny.
However, before the attack on Russia, Ukrainians must build a line of fortifications «Yatsenyuk-Tymoshenko» on the banks of the Dnieper river. And prepare a «caches» and forest camp in Western Ukraine for «heroes jarosz». While there is no money. «Progressive mankind», «the Civilized world», not to give Ukraine the money! Please! Russia will not be able to take into your composition so many new territories. We will become poor.

The most intelligent person that is showed in the clip, there were more there. In fact there were around 1500 protesters near parliament, surely that's not whole maidan.
And yes, quite a lot people wanted to fight for Crimea, would be strange otherwise and I'm surprised that you didn't know it. Luckily those people don't make decisions.
Don't worry, Ukraine won't start war, we have more important tasks than returning Crimea, which is hardly possible( completely impossible in my opinion, though half of candidates for president promise to do it).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 30, 2014, 04:24:47 pm
First, even though sometimes I criticized you serr, I believe you're the most reasonable guy here and proved that a lot recently, despite your national identity, +rep


Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 04:01:09 pm
Don't worry, Ukraine won't start war, we have more important tasks than returning Crimea, which is hardly possible( completely impossible in my opinion, though half of candidates for president promise to do it).


Problem would arise that if one of those candidates gets elected, then :

- if they do what they promise = hostility increased with Russia, with what we can already predict
- if they dont do what they promised = a possible 2nd maidan scenario? since 1st maidan was all about president not being true to their words
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 04:29:17 pm
Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 04:01:09 pm
The most intelligent person that is showed in the clip, there were more there. In fact there were around 1500 protesters near parliament, surely that's not whole maidan.
And yes, quite a lot people wanted to fight for Crimea, would be strange otherwise and I'm surprised that you didn't know it. Luckily those people don't make decisions.
Don't worry, Ukraine won't start war, we have more important tasks than returning Crimea, which is hardly possible( completely impossible in my opinion, though half of candidates for president promise to do it).
Ugh, I felt better. I thought the «civilized world and progressive mankind» invented for Ukraine, a new sophisticated «Marshall plan» - «to declare war on Russia and immediately to capitulate»... Russia and have already done a lot for Ukraine's economy. For example, she took under her wing, «the most subsidized regions of Ukraine» (now you don't need subsidies, much less cost). The hope is that you will be right. And Ukrainian shit to clean Obama and Merkel. Without Russia. Thank you, calmed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 04:31:57 pm
Quote
Problem would arise that if one of those candidates gets elected, then :

- if they do what they promise = hostility increased with Russia, with what we can already predict
- if they dont do what they promised = a possible 2nd maidan scenario? since 1st maidan was all about president not being true to their words

True, however good thing is that most likely Poroshenko will be elected and he don't promise that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Clockworkkiller on March 30, 2014, 04:33:37 pm
lets just nuke eastern europe and call it a day
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 30, 2014, 04:42:16 pm
Quote from: Clockworkkiller on March 30, 2014, 04:33:37 pm
lets just nuke eastern europe furmy old friends and call it a day

fixed that for you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 30, 2014, 04:53:22 pm
Quote from: Clockworkkiller on March 30, 2014, 04:33:37 pm
lets just nuke eastern europe and call it a day
btw few days ago I saw several Topol-M's moving to Pskov(city located near Latvian-Estonian border). Those things look really nasty and huge. Just about to fit into your furry asshole.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 30, 2014, 05:34:29 pm
Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 04:31:57 pm
True, however good thing is that most likely Poroshenko will be elected and he don't promise that.


I would be interested to hear more about the man you feel is going to be next president.

What is his political background? Ideological position ? (Left/center/right? Moderate/radical?) What does he wants for Ukraine as a whole? Your personal opinion on him? (why do you think he will be elected, and why not the others?)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 30, 2014, 05:42:05 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 30, 2014, 05:34:29 pm
I would be interested to hear more about the man you feel is going to be next president.
He used to make good and relatively cheap chocolate
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yummy... That's all I know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 06:32:29 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Poroshenko

Despite being one of the richest ukrainians, didn't stain his reputation with any corruption schemes.
Was in several governments, including the last one of Mykola Azarov, yet, again, didn't take part in any scandals, doubtful decisions, etc

Quote
Ideological position ? (Left/center/right? Moderate/radical?)
Center moderate.
Supported maidan from the very beginning, but always called for peaceful actions, asked protesters to refrain from violent actions.
Even was nearly pelted with stones on 1st December by right sector on Bankova street when he tried to stop them.

Quote
What does he wants for Ukraine as a whole?
He didn't publish his election program yet, so no details here, but when he talk about future of Ukraine he mostly uses words democracy and freedom of speech.

Quote
Your personal opinion on him?
Obviously he is very smart guy and experienced politician and economist, probably even honest, so I'm quite optimistic about him, especially compared to second probable candidate Tymoshenko.
On other hand Yushchenko made more or less the same immersion before the president elections in 2004 and proved to be complete disappointment. However Yushchenko's biggest fault was that he was spending too much resources on "national identity" and sometimes on supporting nationalists, and not enough on economy, which was already far from good back then.
Not something you could accuse Poroshenko in.

Quote
why do you think he will be elected, and why not the others?
His ratings speaks for himself. He had three times more support than Tymoshenko even before last events when Klitschko withdrew from elections and supported him instead.

Basically he is the only real candidate.
Tymoschenko has bad reputation, she was prime minister before and didn't do good, too much populism, popular but wrong decisions.
Dobkin and Tihipko are members of Party of Regions which is still associated with Yanokovich, there is no way one of them could win.
Tyahnybok and Yarosh are radical nationalists, and despite what russian media says, they don't have big support.

You can see their ratings here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 06:34:47 pm
Quote from: Clockworkkiller on March 30, 2014, 04:33:37 pm
lets just nuke eastern europe and call it a day
You from Texas? Or are you a friend?  :?:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Havoco on March 30, 2014, 06:49:06 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 06:34:47 pm
You from Texas? Or are you a friend?  :?:

He's just a furry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on March 30, 2014, 06:50:37 pm
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/03/28/putin_calls_obama_to_discuss_resolution_to_ukraine_crisis.html (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/03/28/putin_calls_obama_to_discuss_resolution_to_ukraine_crisis.html)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 30, 2014, 07:10:04 pm
Oh, didnt even read that Klitschko had withdrew (running for Kiev mayorship instead) and endorsed someone else, pretty sure he will win then, if they dont fuck something up or a new bad recording is leaked.
You said he was in previous government but didnt take direct actions, how is it possible? Afaik, as long as you're a member of a government, appointed by the president himself, you are somewhat stained by what they did overall, how did he manages to stay relatively "clean" in the eyes of the people?

Also why is he listed as "Independant", he has no official political party behind him? Never had?


Also that part of the wiki doesnt surprise me  :P

Quote
Poroshenko supports Ukrainian NATO-membership and stated in December 2009 "I believe that with a political will and a public wish to do so, public support for politicians in charge, and a clear and right awareness policy, becoming a NATO member could be accomplished within a year or two". However he also stated NATO membership should not be a goal in itself "Our goal must be conducting reforms, improving living standards. I believe that here we must do everything to improve the situation in the country rather than obtain somebody's permission for some actions".[17]

Although dismissed on 11 March 2010 as foreign minister President Viktor Yanukovych expressed hope for further cooperation with Poroshenko.[6]

So the winner may well be a pro-US/EU, supported by pro-US/EU; even if he is moderate it will be enough to get tense relationship with Russia, because he will most probably open his arms to everything Russia doesnt want: the crimean crisis could even be the basis of "protecting ourselves against exterior influence". The talk about digging themselves up against the east, could mean Ukraine will become the newest/closest most important entrenching country to counter Russian influence, after the baltic states.

Or is he moderate even in foreign policy matters? We will know as soon as he form his government and appoint the important ministers of foreign affairs and police/army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 07:39:53 pm
Quote
You said he was in previous government but didnt take direct actions, how is it possible? Afaik, as long as you're a member of a government, appointed by the president himself, you are somewhat stained by what they did overall, how did he manages to stay relatively "clean" in the eyes of the people?

Quote
2nd Minister of Trade and Economic Development
23 March 2012 – 24 December 2012

As you can see he wasn't there for long and his post wasn't one of those that usually cause complaints(such as internal affairs for example)

On other hand the fact that he was there was the reason why he didn't become prime minister instead of Yatsenyuk - one of demands of maidan was that anyone who was in Azarov's government couldn't enter new government.

Quote
So the winner may well be a pro-US/EU, supported by pro-US/EU; even if he is moderate it will be enough to get tense relationship with Russia, because he will most probably open his arms to everything Russia doesnt want: the crimean crisis could even be the basis of "protecting ourselves against exterior influence". The talk about digging themselves up against the east, could mean Ukraine will become the newest/closest most important entrenching country to counter Russian influence, after the baltic states.

Or is he moderate even in foreign policy matters? We will know as soon as he form his government and appoint the important ministers of foreign affairs and police/army.

Well, he is definitely pro-US/EU and realationship with Russia will be tense anyway for many years from now, but he is smart enough not to introduce visa regime with Russia, like some of out new rulers tried to do recently( Yatsenyuk refused to do it though) and make other provocative steps that wouldn't bring anything but worse relations with Russia.

As for joining NATO... Like it or not but if Ukraine was member of NATO, Crimea still would be part of Ukraine.
Ukraine can join NATO only after national referendum about it. Year ago such referendum would fail. Now.. it is likely that it will succeed and Russia can blame only itself here.

Quote
Or is he moderate even in foreign policy matters?

Not sure about his foreign policy. We already had bad relations with Russia when he was minister of foreign affairs, but that was mostly if not fully because of Yushchenko. Don't remember any significant decisions from him.

Quote
We will know as soon as he form his government and appoint the important ministers of foreign affairs and police/army.

Poroshenko already said that he won't reform government if he win, just will strengthen some posts.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 30, 2014, 07:44:48 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 06:34:47 pm
You from Texas? Or are you a friend?  :?:
More incredible irony from racist russians crying about "chocolate chip cookies". Looking at all the european extreme far-right and neochocolate chip cookies, they all openly support and admire Putler's actions, for some strange and unfathomable reason (lol). Maybe it's because they believe in the exact same propaganda and ideology the russian state controlled media has been blaring out endlessly. The "west" is decadent, riddled by homosexuals and inferior brown immigrants, losing the traditional values that made them great, manipulated by judaic-massonic NWO.
Russians also have a gigantic chip on their shoulder from the collapse of the Soviet Union (very Germany post WW1 Versailles Treaty), so they compensate by masturbating furiously to Strongman Putin and military power, not to mention the constant out in the light racism that is ignored by useful idiots. I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but the parrallels to chocolate chip cookie Germany are so blindingly obvious only a fucking ignorant moron like Butan could take it as exaggeration. 
Dit moi Butan, t'habites Paris?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 08:07:22 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 30, 2014, 07:44:48 pm
More incredible irony from racist russians crying about "chocolate chip cookies". Looking at all the european extreme far-right and neochocolate chip cookies, they all openly support and admire Putler's actions, for some strange and unfathomable reason (lol). Maybe it's because they believe in the exact same propaganda and ideology the russian state controlled media has been blaring out endlessly. The "west" is decadent, riddled by homosexuals and inferior brown immigrants, losing the traditional values that made them great, manipulated by judaic-massonic NWO.
Russians also have a gigantic chip on their shoulder from the collapse of the Soviet Union (very Germany post WW1 Versailles Treaty), so they compensate by masturbating furiously to Strongman Putin and military power, not to mention the constant out in the light racism that is ignored by useful idiots. I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but the parrallels to chocolate chip cookie Germany are so blindingly obvious only a fucking ignorant moron like Butan could take it as exaggeration. 
Dit moi Butan, t'habites Paris?
I'm glad to see your message, Oberyn . Long you we didn't write. But you're living. I was upset, you're gone. Thought was killed or injured you, hero of Ukraine. You are the only man from Ukraine, on this forum, which clearly expresses his position. You, really, the Living Shit out of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 08:08:54 pm
 :D Then Tovi is the only man from Russia, on this forum, which clearly expresses his position.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 08:12:33 pm
Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 08:08:54 pm
:D Then Tovi is the only man from Russia, on this forum, which clearly expresses his position.
Хм.. Однако... И тем не менее!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 30, 2014, 08:14:49 pm
Self-determination of peoples is just SO important to Russia. I can't wait for dagestani and tchetchen and turkmen and chinese referendum, who will all obviously vote to stay with Great Mother Russia. On the other hand, they're not the right race (i.e russian), so their self-determination is obviously wrong and bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 08:17:19 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 08:12:33 pm
Хм.. Однако... И тем не менее!
Может ты не это имел в виду, но они оба французы  :)

Quote
Self-determination of peoples is just SO important to Russia. I can't wait for dagestani and tchetchen referendum, who will obviously vote to stay with Great Mother Russia. On the other hand, they're not the right race (i.e russian), so their self-determination is obviously wrong and bad.
Russia's laws don't include anything about quitting Russian Federation, so won't happen.
Unless some local self-defence forces show up  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 08:28:48 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 30, 2014, 08:14:49 pm
Self-determination of peoples is just SO important to Russia. I can't wait for dagestani and tchetchen and turkmen and chinese referendum, who will all obviously vote to stay with Great Mother Russia. On the other hand, they're not the right race (i.e russian), so their self-determination is obviously wrong and bad.
The self-identification Name
People sometimes change the name. As a rule they are artists or other people «fine spiritual orientation».
Surname people (men) have changed too. But only if they are ashamed of the behavior and actions of their ancestors. If one respects/is proud of his ancestors, he will never change his name (it may not even decently pronounced).
And with Nations. If anyone remembers, if respected business ancestors if you proud of the deeds... Nation will not disappear. It's an identity on a national basis.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 08:35:12 pm
 People without identity - gavno hole. He has no landmarks. He has no point of reference. Where a good and a bad. "He is seeking". Persons without nationality in our big world is already shit in a large river.
БлЪ, хреново но по английски  :wink:
Russia is not Europe. Russia is not the middle East. In Russia many religions. In Russia many nationalities. And even «dagestani » is not a nationality is many nationalities. We can and know how to respect traditions and customs of other people.
And « turkmen» have their country. A separate independent country Turkmenistan. The richest in the post-Soviet space.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 30, 2014, 09:09:58 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 30, 2014, 07:44:48 pm
Dit moi Butan, t'habites Paris?

Non, Calais, pourquoi, tu veux débattre de l'influence des cookies dans le monde?


Quote from: Oberyn on March 30, 2014, 08:14:49 pm
Self-determination of peoples is just SO important to Russia. I can't wait for dagestani and tchetchen and turkmen and chinese referendum, who will all obviously vote to stay with Great Mother Russia. On the other hand, they're not the right race (i.e russian), so their self-determination is obviously wrong and bad.

Like Corsica, Basque and all the french overseas departments and territories? And before that, the "french" Algeria? You cant call bullshit on that one Oberyn  :lol: we are both french and we understand what I mean.

If all countries supported separatist movement on the sole basis that they have the right of self-determination, we wouldnt have ~200 countries, more like 10 000+.
Right of self-determination is given to people that succeeded into liberating themselves (with or without external help), not given freely to anyone who manage to get a majority of "yes" inside his own cultural sphere. Hence why Russia fought against their separatist rebels when they could, because they dont want to be weaker.

Then of course, since Crimea "right of self determination" was in the benefit of Russia, of course they supported it?! As much as those who are enemies of Russia, discredited it! Welcome to politic.


Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 07:39:53 pm
Poroshenko already said that he won't reform government if he win, just will strengthen some posts.

I know I could get it on google but  :mrgreen:  what's the current government looking like in term of far-left to far-right power balance? From what I remember, there is some shady far-right guys at big posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on March 30, 2014, 09:31:13 pm
Here in Moscow we will  have  a referendum to join Empire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gnjus on March 30, 2014, 09:48:18 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 09:59:59 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 30, 2014, 09:09:58 pm
I know I could get it on google but  :mrgreen:  what's the current government looking like in term of far-left to far-right power balance? From what I remember, there is some shady far-right guys at big posts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government

Yes, there are three members of Svoboda party, but mostly it consist of Fatherland party
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Elmuri on March 30, 2014, 10:16:50 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 08:28:48 pm
And with Nations. If anyone remembers, if respected business ancestors if you proud of the deeds... Nation will not disappear. It's an identity on a national basis.

That resembles what Ernest Renan was thinking in the 19th century, but I'm not sure what does that have to do with the text you quoted?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 10:20:41 pm
Quote from: Elmuri on March 30, 2014, 10:16:50 pm
That resembles what Ernest Renan was thinking in the 19th century, but I'm not sure what does that have to do with the text you quoted?
Yes? So I am not alone. Thank you.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Elmuri on March 30, 2014, 10:39:00 pm
Well, I would also recommend to read what other nationalist, internationalist and trans-nationalist thinkers have thought after that.

For example David Mitrany or Michael Billig and his book Banal Nationalism, which I intend to read too when I get time and will.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 10:56:02 pm
Serr, I am interested in Avakov. It's in a team? For any ideas?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 11:01:58 pm
Sorry?

Задай вопрос по-русски. Я понял что тебя интересует Аваков, а вот вторую часть не очень.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 30, 2014, 11:10:10 pm
Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 09:59:59 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government

Yes, there are three members of Svoboda party, but mostly it consist of Fatherland party

OK thanks,


You sure Poroshenko would not change any position, even though when the government formed it was without the people voice, only MP? I dont know how it works in Ukraine, but in France the president always form a government according to the election result, they rarely keep previous ministers and they almost always give the ministers only to guys in their political party (except if the election was very short and they want to form a coalition), but I guess for extraordinary event we need extraordinary measures!

Still, I dont see the composition not changing at all if there is results which says (for example) that Batkivshchyna need to go away.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 30, 2014, 11:14:56 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 30, 2014, 07:10:04 pm
So the winner may well be a pro-US/EU, supported by pro-US/EU; even if he is moderate it will be enough to get tense relationship with Russia, because he will most probably open his arms to everything Russia doesnt want: the crimean crisis could even be the basis of "protecting ourselves against exterior influence". The talk about digging themselves up against the east, could mean Ukraine will become the newest/closest most important entrenching country to counter Russian influence, after the baltic states.

Or is he moderate even in foreign policy matters? We will know as soon as he form his government and appoint the important ministers of foreign affairs and police/army.

To you, what would be "moderate even in foreign policy matters" about a country that invaded and forcibly annexed part of your territory ?

I think we all agree here that those wanting to fight for Crimea on the Ukrainian side are idiots, but it's not like a moderate government would seek to continue relations with Russia at the level of what they were under Yanukovich.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 11:19:22 pm
In Ukraine president proposes candidate for prime-minister and parliament accept or don't accept him.
Then prime-minister and president are forming government.

After Poroshenko's win I expect Udar(Klitchko's party) to get some(probably quite a lot) posts in government.
Yatsenyuk will most likely remain prime-minister, he is average politician, but good economist, which makes him good prime-minister in current situation.

Poroshenko claim that his goal is to unite democratic powers and Fatherland is considered to be part of them, so some them for sure will stay in government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 11:28:13 pm
Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 11:19:22 pm
Poroshenko claim that his goal is to unite democratic powers and Fatherland is considered to be part of them...
«Batkovschina» - understandable. And who were the «Democratic forces»?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 30, 2014, 11:33:29 pm
Democratic forces - I mean democratic parties in Ukraine who supported maidan: Fatherland, Udar. Not sure if he includes Svoboda here, which is obviously not democratic, but still supported maidan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 11:39:15 pm
Quote from: serr on March 30, 2014, 11:33:29 pm
Democratic forces - I mean democratic parties in Ukraine who supported maidan: Fatherland, Udar. Not sure if he includes Svoboda here, which is obviously not democratic, but still supported maidan.
That is, the party which overthrew the government of Yanukovych. People who participated in the revolution. Revolutionaries. This is so?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 11:47:56 pm
 Well. Another question: «Tituschki» - who is this?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 31, 2014, 12:02:05 am
The dialogue failed. Very sorry... Interlocutor thought long, tired, and ran away.  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 31, 2014, 12:03:06 am
Or he went to sleep, not everyone is on these forums all the time, give it time and he may respond.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 31, 2014, 06:43:58 am
that triple post
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 31, 2014, 09:22:58 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 30, 2014, 11:39:15 pm
That is, the party which overthrew the government of Yanukovych. People who participated in the revolution. Revolutionaries. This is so?

Not exactly, Right Sector is certainly not "democratic force" and there is no way Poroshenko could work with them, they dislike each other too much. As for Svoboda, probably Poroshenko will propose them to unite(though I doubt it), but it is very unlikely for them to agree.

Apart from these two parties(yes, Right Sector is a party now) you are right.

Quote
Well. Another question: «Tituschki» - who is this?

Mostly thugs, bandits hired by government to do provocations and beat protesters. Less often, ideological retards like Right Sector, but from other side. For example leader of Kharkiv's titushki is radical communist  :)

Named after Vadim Titushko, who was hired to make provocations and attacked operator of tv channel on some rally several years ago.

Now he redeemed himself though, supported maidan and was protecting it from bad titushki :)


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 31, 2014, 10:14:06 am
Quote from: serr on March 31, 2014, 09:22:58 am
Not exactly, Right Sector is certainly not "democratic force" and there is no way Poroshenko could work with them, they dislike each other too much. As for Svoboda, probably Poroshenko will propose them to unite(though I doubt it), but it is very unlikely for them to agree.

Apart from these two parties(yes, Right Sector is a party now) you are right.

Mostly thugs, bandits hired by government to do provocations and beat protesters. Less often, ideological retards like Right Sector, but from other side. For example leader of Kharkiv's titushki is radical communist  :)

Named after Vadim Titushko, who was hired to make provocations and attacked operator of tv channel on some rally several years ago.

Now he redeemed himself though, supported maidan and was protecting it from bad titushki :)
I understand you correctly? «Tituschki» these people are extremists who beat protesters? Thank you.
Why I ask these questions. The last few months, I talked a lot with people from the countries of Eastern Europe. They would often use long-forgotten words, phrases. Here's phrase: «the Entire civilized world», «ideas of Lenin», «the hand of the KGB», «democratic forces», «solidarity of the proletariat», «All progressive mankind» and so on. In Russia these phrases stamps not eaten for more than 20 years. Even when they speak about Russia or any country of the post - Soviet space is talking about «dark, poor, sullen, angry people of the USSR». You are again in the 80-ies. Your head's wrapped Communist and anti-Communist press, Newspapers 1985. Your world has turned into a black and white TV made in the mid-20th century...  :(

I always hoped and believed that the new generation will be more cheerful, communicative, more intelligent than we (those who had survived the 1980s and dashing 90 years, who is now 40-55 years). But alas... You learned how to program themselves! Without the press, no agitation!!! You don't want to think. The analysis is worse than a song. The feelings of the crowd, always with the winners, always with the crowd - that's your motto.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 31, 2014, 10:35:47 am
Quote
I understand you correctly? «Tituschki» these people are extremists who beat protesters? Thank you.

Not only protesters, wide definition would be people who take part in violent actions by government's orders. Most of them did what they did for money, not for idea.

Quote
Why I ask these questions. The last few months, I talked a lot with people from the countries of Eastern Europe. They would often use long-forgotten words, phrases. Here's phrase: «the Entire civilized world», «ideas of Lenin», «the hand of the KGB», «democratic forces», «solidarity of the proletariat», «All progressive mankind» and so on. In Russia these phrases stamps not eaten for more than 20 years. Even when they speak about Russia or any country of the post - Soviet space is talking about «dark, poor, sullen, angry people of the USSR». You are again in the 80-ies. Your head's wrapped Communist and anti-Communist press, Newspapers 1985. Your world has turned into a black and white TV made in the mid-20th century...  :(

Hasn't yours?
I hear so much about evil faschists and sneaky NATO these days.. Are you sure you are not speaking about Russia now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 31, 2014, 10:42:21 am
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 31, 2014, 11:31:24 am
Quote from: serr on March 31, 2014, 10:35:47 am
Not only protesters, wide definition would be people who take part in violent actions by government's orders. Most of them did what they did for money, not for idea.

Hasn't yours?
I hear so much about evil faschists and sneaky NATO these days.. Are you sure you are not speaking about Russia now?
Hmm... that's how I think and how I say:
There are three different terms: nationalism, Nouzism, fascism.
Nationalism is quite healthy (even useful to society) movement.
To fascism, Ukrainian «right branch» not yet Mature enough. It is necessary to work hard and learn more of them.
But Nouzism is already there. Nouzism, in a nutshell, the terrorist (against persons of other nationality) direction of nationalism. This movement of extremists, with elements (the worst parts of) the ideology of fascism.
Now about NATO. NATO - «sneaky NATO»? No. NATO is rather expensive, decorative, baseball bat.   :? There is only capable of Department: U.S. army, the Bundeswehr, the French Legion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on March 31, 2014, 12:03:15 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 31, 2014, 10:14:06 am
«the hand of the KGB»

I agree but Hand of the KGB is a legitimate idea: The KGB set up and ran many of the post USSR nations... and Putin IS the very ideal of the hand of the KGB. But then, aside from its activities in soviet times inside Russia, the KGB shared everything about the CIA: They set up sympathetic dictatorships, ran or ruined business/drugs/gunrunning/nations for personal profit, and vvere in general immoral povverbrokers on a global scale.

The hand of the KGB may be old fashioned vvay of stating it, but those players did not leave the game, most of them are still short of 70, and have the best medical attention. There vvill be another 30 to 40 years of them making descisions.

Remember that reguardless of vvhat you and I think, and the media presents, and groups such as the UN state and believe and try to achieve: the vvorld is run for profit by people vvhose name vve vvill never knovv.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 31, 2014, 02:02:24 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on March 31, 2014, 12:03:15 pm
Remember that reguardless of vvhat you and I think, and the media presents, and groups such as the UN state and believe and try to achieve: the vvorld is run for profit by people vvhose name vve vvill never knovv.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 31, 2014, 11:31:24 am
Nationalism is quite healthy (even useful to society) movement.
To fascism, Ukrainian «right branch» not yet Mature enough. It is necessary to work hard and learn more of them.


Would you say (and I'm asking both you and serr) that Svoboda is nationalist party, and Right sector is fascist party?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 31, 2014, 02:22:41 pm
Is there a reason that my posted link is ignored where the head of the Ukrainian Jewish community thing says that media focus on the right wing members in the government is exaggerated cuz there is no real, mentionable right wing movement in the population as a whole?

Just wondering...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 31, 2014, 02:48:37 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2014, 02:22:41 pm
Is there a reason that my posted link is ignored where the head of the Ukrainian Jewish community thing says that media focus on the right wing members in the government is exaggerated cuz there is no real, mentionable right wing movement in the population as a whole?

Just wondering...

It's ignored because it serves no purpose among relatively well informed individuals.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 31, 2014, 02:56:17 pm
Why should I believe a guy who deny the existence of right wing movement in Ukraine just because he is jewish?



Over-exaggerated or not, nationalist/fascist/cookies had a part in Maidan, and there is nationalist party members at ministers position in the government!
That could means two things, relative to what you said about people representation:


- the place given to right/far-right movement in the revolution government is proportionately higher than what the people want : in a democratic country, the power shouldnt be given to those that doesnt represent the people

- the place given to right/far-right movement in the revolution government is proportionately equal or lower than what the people want : they have high legitimacy and should stay and use their fonction to further their cause




If as you said, there is no mentionable right wing movement in Ukraine, then it should be the first situation.
Of course it serves to discredit the government to speak about possible far-right movements in new Kiev, but to totally deny their existence/influence and place of power is equally wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 31, 2014, 02:59:16 pm
Quote
Would you say (and I'm asking both you and serr) that Svoboda is nationalist party, and Right sector is fascist party?

No, both are nationalists, just Right Sector is more radical. They have nothing to do with fascism.
Actually, I would say that Right Sector is closer to anarchism.

Quote
Is there a reason that my posted link is ignored where the head of the Ukrainian Jewish community thing says that media focus on the right wing members in the government is exaggerated cuz there is no real, mentionable right wing movement in the population as a whole?

Depends on what you call "mentionable right wing movement". Candidate from Svoboda will get around 5% votes, from more radical right-wing party Right Sector - around 1-2%. They are the only right wing parties in our politics. Can you call it mentionable?

For comparasion, candidate from communists will get around 6%
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 31, 2014, 03:13:43 pm
There is no left, there is no right, there is only pro-EU pro-RUS?  :P  in this case we can say without problem that its a battle between which pro-EU movement will take the crown.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on March 31, 2014, 03:39:05 pm
Quite interesting that while Right Sector supported Euromaidan and was probably the most active part of it(at least when we talk about violent actions), it is not pro-EU and they don't want Ukraine to join EU.

Quote
There is no left, there is no right, there is only pro-EU pro-RUS?  :P  in this case we can say without problem that its a battle between which pro-EU movement will take the crown.

Exactly, Udar vs Fatherland or Poroshenko vs Tymoschenko.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 31, 2014, 03:48:57 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 31, 2014, 02:22:41 pm
Is there a reason that my posted link is ignored where the head of the Ukrainian Jewish community thing says that media focus on the right wing members in the government is exaggerated cuz there is no real, mentionable right wing movement in the population as a whole?

Just wondering...

Not at the moment. But given enough time, there will be. That is why it's essential to keep extremists away from power, at margin where they should stay forever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 31, 2014, 04:55:48 pm
Quote from: serr on March 31, 2014, 03:39:05 pm
Quite interesting that while Right Sector supported Euromaidan and was probably the most active part of it(at least when we talk about violent actions), it is not pro-EU and they don't want Ukraine to join EU.

If I was leader of Right Sector, I would be quite mad indeed... oh wait.


Quote from: Leshma on March 31, 2014, 03:48:57 pm
[...]it's essential to keep extremists away from power, at margin where they should stay forever.

Even if they were largely responsible for the success of said revolution? Cannon fodder for moderate power-grabber :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 31, 2014, 05:10:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on March 31, 2014, 02:56:17 pm
Why should I believe a guy who deny the existence of right wing movement in Ukraine just because he is jewish?



Over-exaggerated or not, nationalist/fascist/cookies had a part in Maidan, and there is nationalist party members at ministers position in the government!
That could means two things, relative to what you said about people representation:


- the place given to right/far-right movement in the revolution government is proportionately higher than what the people want : in a democratic country, the power shouldnt be given to those that doesnt represent the people

- the place given to right/far-right movement in the revolution government is proportionately equal or lower than what the people want : they have high legitimacy and should stay and use their fonction to further their cause




If as you said, there is no mentionable right wing movement in Ukraine, then it should be the first situation.
Of course it serves to discredit the government to speak about possible far-right movements in new Kiev, but to totally deny their existence/influence and place of power is equally wrong.
You really are unable to process written information, aren't you? Unbelievable...

I'm out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 31, 2014, 05:21:23 pm
Why the West is interested by Russia ?
Because in this century it will become a major power. The biggest country with a lot of minerals, oil and gaz + fertile lands even with warming climate. Without Russia, EU is dead in less than a century.
That's why we should think twice before joining US Empire, they just use us against Russia. They did it during WW2 and  during Cold War. US and UK do not want a continental alliance, they try to divide us until war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 31, 2014, 05:44:36 pm
top lel.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 31, 2014, 06:35:36 pm
Tovi should get a one way ticket to Pyongyang
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 31, 2014, 06:58:09 pm
I prefer Cuba  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on March 31, 2014, 07:28:17 pm
For the cigar or for the 60 years long US embargo?  :P



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on March 31, 2014, 08:41:56 pm
http://yandex.ru/video/search?text=%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%20%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D1%8F%D0%BD%20%D0%B2%20%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE&where=all&filmId=YFRalMGKUXI
«democratic forces» :evil:
Syria. "Right branch". Heroes Syrian Maidan.
It is not a "Nouzism"? It's easy, "anarchism"? This is so?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 31, 2014, 08:52:10 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on March 31, 2014, 08:41:56 pm
(click to show/hide)
«democratic forces» :evil:

What video were you meant to link, Ivanich? This one?

(click to show/hide)

Damn. Even if this isn't it that was something. Religion of peace huh. Fucking vermin
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 31, 2014, 09:36:35 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 31, 2014, 08:52:10 pm
What video were you meant to link, Ivanich? This one?

(click to show/hide)

Damn. Even if this isn't it that was something. Religion of peace huh. Fucking vermin

Im not going to watch the video, but I would almost guess those are ISIS (foreigners). They're very extreme and are considered enemy by Syrian rebel groups. They were recently pushed out from Syria by the rebels (you can watch about it on Vice). No one likes ISIS. Even in Iraq anti-american rebels would help the US troops to defeat ISIS. Thats how bad they are.

Anyone that can confirm they are ISIS in the video?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 31, 2014, 09:39:09 pm
Well, about Syria :


An invasion is planned. Turkey may invade north Syria and occupy it for a while (like in north Chypria).
Just one thing to know : Al Qaida= CIA's commando , with a major tactic : False Flag Ops (wich is a part of Soft Power strategy)


And beware Youtube. Post your videos on Rutube, it's safer ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 31, 2014, 10:11:51 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 31, 2014, 08:52:10 pm
What video were you meant to link, Ivanich? This one?

(click to show/hide)

Damn. Even if this isn't it that was something. Religion of peace huh. Fucking vermin

Totally not okay to post a picture of a giant schlong, but that shit s fine...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 01, 2014, 12:03:35 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 31, 2014, 09:39:09 pm
An invasion is planned. Turkey may invade north Syria and occupy it for a while (like in north Chypria).
Just one thing to know : Al Qaida= CIA's commando , with a major tactic : False Flag Ops (wich is a part of Soft Power strategy)


And beware Youtube. Post your videos on Rutube, it's safer ;)

So, was Osama the best CIA operative in the world?

Holy shit. That's stuff I heard from the Drunk, overdosed guy on the side of the street one day.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 01, 2014, 12:07:21 am
The aliens have come to give us feeling-shaped chocolate wallets, but we were too blind to piss on them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 01, 2014, 08:40:39 am
THIS is why it pays dumping insane amount of cash into propaganda. Shit you read here... you can't make up on your own. None of us have enough cash for THAT much drugs...

And even if I'm tired of arguing with hipster french and brainwashed ruskies - I still think my brainwash is superior to yours and I still pity you sheep who thing putler is le great leader reborn :rolleyes:

Also - I wish you the same treatment from China in Siberia, once they export enough of their citizens there to justify defending their rights...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 01, 2014, 08:42:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 01, 2014, 08:40:39 am
THIS is why it pays dumping insane amount of cash into propaganda. Shit you read here... you can't make up on your own. None of us have enough cash for THAT much drugs...
And even if I'm tired of arguing with hipster french and brainwashed ruskies - I still think my brainwash is superior to yours and I still pity you sheep who thing putler is le great leader reborn :rolleyes:
Also - I wish you the same treatment from China in Siberia, once they export enough of their citizens there to justify defending their rights...  :rolleyes:
silly eumy old friend
stop thinking and go back to work   :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 01, 2014, 09:13:09 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 01, 2014, 08:42:56 am
silly eumy old friend
stop thinking and go back to work   :twisted:
Wat is this silly thing you call work? In EU - no my old friends work. You cant discriminate my old friends and force them to work because they are silly my old friends! You must be politically-correct! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 01, 2014, 11:15:18 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 31, 2014, 05:21:23 pm
Why the West is interested by Russia ?
Because in this century it will become a major power. The biggest country with a lot of minerals, oil and gaz + fertile lands even with warming climate. Without Russia, EU is dead in less than a century.
That's why we should think twice before joining US Empire, they just use us against Russia. They did it during WW2 and  during Cold War. US and UK do not want a continental alliance, they try to divide us until war.

Dat dere communist propaganda.

Rather be fascist natzeee than communist. And im neither.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 01, 2014, 12:19:28 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 31, 2014, 05:21:23 pm
Why the West is interested by Russia ?
Because in this century it will become a major power. The biggest country with a lot of minerals, oil and gaz + fertile lands even with warming climate. Without Russia, EU is dead in less than a century.
That's why we should think twice before joining US Empire, they just use us against Russia. They did it during WW2 and  during Cold War. US and UK do not want a continental alliance, they try to divide us until war.

Good troll or serius. Either way living in a cave.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 01, 2014, 01:50:17 pm
Ivanich, what do you think about this? Do you agree with them?



Oberyn mentioned retarded book about russian geopolitics somewhere in this topic. On this video author of that book, Dugin, make advices for Donetsk separatists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 01, 2014, 02:32:45 pm
Quote from: serr on April 01, 2014, 01:50:17 pm
(click to show/hide)
he will tell anything to dat babe to have sex with her  :P
сосукраина.... я б не ходил на этот сайт )


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 01, 2014, 02:54:00 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 01, 2014, 06:43:14 pm
Quote from: serr on April 01, 2014, 01:50:17 pm
(click to show/hide)


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 01, 2014, 06:51:01 pm
Well, it's good that you put all that in spoilers otherwise us strangers wouldn't understand it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 01, 2014, 06:53:57 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 01, 2014, 06:51:01 pm
Well, it's good that you put all that in spoilers otherwise us strangers wouldn't understand it.

cyka mamku ebal ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 01, 2014, 06:56:04 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 01, 2014, 06:51:01 pm
Well, it's good that you put all that in spoilers otherwise us strangers wouldn't understand it.

http://translate.google.com/


I would prefer the thread to stay 100% english too, but I understand the urge to speak in your native language when you know you dont have the words to express a more complex point of view.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 01, 2014, 06:57:16 pm
I understand russian ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 01, 2014, 06:57:58 pm
xnxnxn
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 01, 2014, 06:58:54 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 01, 2014, 06:51:01 pm
Well, it's good that you put all that in spoilers otherwise us strangers wouldn't understand it.
Teach Russian language, Basurman. Or set translator.  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 01, 2014, 07:01:05 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 01, 2014, 06:58:54 pm
Teach Russian language, Basurman. Or set translator.  :D

Cheaper idea : come protect russian people in Europe (and then, the world).

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 01, 2014, 07:01:34 pm
or just play dota 2
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 01, 2014, 07:02:40 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on April 01, 2014, 12:03:35 am
So, was Osama the best CIA operative in the world?

Holy shit. That's stuff I heard from the Drunk, overdosed guy on the side of the street one day.

Another drunken man, named W Bush, said Hugo Chavez was a member of Al Qaida... but those stupid american always makes me laugh. They believe in their propaganda's movies.

Oh, and yes, Osama was a good boy. That's why his family was afforded to fly out of America on 9.11
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 01, 2014, 07:22:57 pm
I, by the way, since June in the Krasnodar region and in the Crimea going to work. Once in Yamal (for two weeks in may) I will fly, and sunbathe on the sun  8-) (and even a lot of money promised). Thank you crazy and stupid: Yanukovych, Klitschko, Tymoshenko! Thanks to the EU! Viva Revolution!  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 01, 2014, 09:39:55 pm
What kind of ping do you expect to have in Crimea? You know, it is very difficult to block properly with high ping.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 01, 2014, 10:04:32 pm
Quote from: Corwin on April 01, 2014, 09:39:55 pm
What kind of ping do you expect to have in Crimea? You know, it is very difficult to block properly with high ping.
Ping is not important. It's warm, beautiful nature, a lot of wine, a lot of beautiful women (without coats and boots) :wink:... Why to block? You can only go in his shorts! There, finally it's going to snow, ice, mud.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 01, 2014, 10:08:51 pm
He can just hold a shield in DTV.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 01, 2014, 10:15:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 01, 2014, 10:08:51 pm
He can just hold a shield in DTV.
Shields are in Ukraine. We, in Russia the Crimea, I'll be wearing only a big fat spear. My spear in my pants.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on April 01, 2014, 10:53:00 pm
Quote from: Corwin on April 01, 2014, 09:39:55 pm
difficult to block
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 01, 2014, 10:04:32 pm
Why to block?
BIA_ivani4
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 01, 2014, 11:50:01 pm
150 pages in, the best laugh I had here.

(click to show/hide)



PS: It's me or is Google translate trying to be funny today ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 09:28:23 am
To get back on track - we need to do a voting, on whether putler will command further invasion of Ukraine.  I.e. like with the choices:
1. He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>.
2. He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>.
3. He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 11:34:49 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 09:28:23 am
To get back on track - we need to do a voting, on whether putler will command further invasion of Ukraine.  I.e. like with the choices:
1. He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>.
2. He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>.
3. He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>.
Liberal-tolerant hater of Russia, why should you vote on the questions of life in Ukraine? You have, in the EU, there are problems. In Croatia and Monteblack in spanish - corruption! The escalation of crime! «The Balkan drug routes»! It is high time to help "democratic and progressive forces" of Croatia to establish order in the country. You don't have the energy to organize Maidan in Croatia, not enough money? You need to ask help of the USA. The black in spanish will give money for the democracy, protection of human values, to change their government tyrants.
Hmm... There found large deposits of hydrocarbons. As at the Crimea on the sea shelf. You, the EU and the US, should quickly to make a revolution in Croatia and Monteblack in spanish!!! Why wait? Serbia already for a long time is a very small country. It is to grow. Russia, the same has free capacities for oil and gas.  :wink:
http://my.mail.ru/video/mail/i.dengina/_myvideo/1.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 02, 2014, 11:42:12 am
This broken English is kinda funny. Stop fighting my "below-the-radar" theorem though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 11:53:12 am
Quote from: Paul on April 02, 2014, 11:42:12 am
This broken English is kinda funny. Stop fighting my "below-the-radar" theorem though.
I love English! It is very similar to the Chinese language! And the interpreter, making it an excellent and concise! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 11:53:32 am
Quote from: Paul on April 02, 2014, 11:42:12 am
This broken English is kinda funny. Stop fighting my "below-the-radar" theorem though.
One day a guy with a funny English will be the head of district "insert name of your country" as part of a New Russian Empire xnxnxnxnxn

By the way have you heard about Pigs? now it UPIGS ((
Panos gonna rage when he finds out that Dave will now receive part of his money  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 12:00:12 pm
Вовка, ты был прав. Украинские следователи реально дказали что Сашко застрелился сам. Притом 2 раза в себя стрелял...  :cry: Вот только пока не выяснили когда он надел на себя наручники. До или после ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 12:00:23 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 11:34:49 am
Liberal-tolerant hater of Russia, why should you vote on the questions of life in Ukraine? You have, in the EU, there are problems. In Croatia and Monteblack in spanish - corruption! The escalation of crime! «The Balkan drug routes»! It is high time to help "democratic and progressive forces" of Croatia to establish order in the country. You don't have the energy to organize Maidan in Croatia, not enough money? You need to ask help of the USA. The black in spanish will give money for the democracy, protection of human values, to change their government tyrants.
Hmm... There found large deposits of hydrocarbons. As at the Crimea on the sea shelf. You, the EU and the US, should quickly to make a revolution in Croatia and Monteblack in spanish!!! Why wait? Serbia already for a long time is a very small country. It is to grow. Russia, the same has free capacities for oil and gas.  :wink:
http://my.mail.ru/video/mail/i.dengina/_myvideo/1.html
Neither me, nor putler should, but that does not stop putler from moving in army and creating a sham referendum and then explaining to the remainder of Ukraine, that "you should become federation with wide autonomy and recreate your constitution to better suite our wishes". My vote? its INTERNETS, SERIES OF TUBES, FORUMS, fuck my opinion, no-one cares or should care.  But it still is interesting, correct and worthy of expressing  :rolleyes:

BTW - putler has some strong ideas of a good constitution... will he implement them across russia? Like... making 10 languages "national" and greater autonomy to regions coupled with "election quotas for minorities"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 12:09:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 12:00:23 pm
Neither me, nor putler should, but that does not stop putler from moving in army and creating a sham referendum and then explaining to the remainder of Ukraine, that "you should become federation with wide autonomy and recreate your constitution to better suite our wishes". My vote? its INTERNETS, SERIES OF TUBES, FORUMS, fuck my opinion, no-one cares or should care.  But it still is interesting, correct and worthy of expressing  :rolleyes:

BTW - putler has some strong ideas of a good constitution... will he implement them across russia? Like... making 10 languages "national" and greater autonomy to regions coupled with "election quotas for minorities"?
You observe a lot for the Affairs of the Great Putin, to study his speech, make notes, a lot of learning to think. Then, ten years or more, your weak Baltic brain will understand: «Like... making 10 languages "national" and greater autonomy to regions coupled with "election quotas for minorities"?» :wink:

The state language of Estonia is Estonian. Why in Estonia, at power plants in Narva, all the instructions are in Russian. And then you, EU, can do correctly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 02, 2014, 12:33:04 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 09:28:23 am
To get back on track - we need to do a voting, on whether putler will command further invasion of Ukraine.  I.e. like with the choices:
1. He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>.
2. He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>.
3. He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>.
Done  :wink:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 02, 2014, 12:37:11 pm
More likely Panos will receive Dave's money now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 02, 2014, 01:53:49 pm
(click to show/hide)


I didnt hear anything else in the media on Ukraine for the past few days... Is Crimea beginning to be "accepted" as Russia territory? And what is the situation in Eastern Ukraine? Is everything on hold until the anticipated presidential election of 25 May 2014 or something could happen before?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 02:10:29 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 02, 2014, 01:53:49 pm
(click to show/hide)

  black in spanish and nigga for as not insult mb cos we dont kill them in our past  :P
all this shit  about racism niggas and jews just an occasion to recall eumy old friends about their past and pull even more money as a sign of repentance )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 02:20:43 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 12:09:56 pm
You observe a lot for the Affairs of the Great Putin, to study his speech, make notes, a lot of learning to think. Then, ten years or more, your weak Baltic brain will understand: «Like... making 10 languages "national" and greater autonomy to regions coupled with "election quotas for minorities"?» :wink:

The state language of Estonia is Estonian. Why in Estonia, at power plants in Narva, all the instructions are in Russian. And then you, EU, can do correctly.
Sorry, did not understand your witty response  :rolleyes:
Quote from: Segd on April 02, 2014, 12:33:04 pm
Done  :wink:

(click to show/hide)

I applaud this. Voting is bestest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 02, 2014, 02:25:35 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 02:10:29 pm
  black in spanish and nigga for as not insult mb cos we dont kill them in our past  :P
all this shit  about racism niggas and jews just an occasion to recall eumy old friends about their past and pull even more money as a sign of repentance )

Didnt understand it like that, point taken  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 02, 2014, 02:35:28 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 12:09:56 pm
The state language of Estonia is Estonian. Why in Estonia, at power plants in Narva, all the instructions are in Russian. And then you, EU, can do correctly.

They are in russian because russians are cheap labor and Narva is next to russia, therefore the majority of the population is Russian descendant. They move from their country into other countries and demand that everyone spoke russian, refusing to study the language of the country they live in. Im pretty sure in Far eastern Russia where a lot of chinese immigrants live, the power plant instructions are in chinese. So I kinda fail to see your point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 02, 2014, 02:55:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 02, 2014, 01:53:49 pm
hating Russia because of Putin

Like hating Italy because of Berlusconi ho wait
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 02, 2014, 03:26:56 pm
Hands off BEstonia, Igor! It's rightful Germ..  European clay now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 03:44:46 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 02, 2014, 03:26:56 pm
Hands off BEstonia, Igor! It's rightful Germ..  European clay now.
All Hail Fourth Rei... European Union!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 03:52:45 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 02:20:43 pm
Sorry, did not understand your witty response  :rolleyes:
I applaud this. Voting is bestest.
his next move is the change of the voting options on the "Putin the Best!" with 33% votes in each, sneaky russian  :evil:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 04:04:33 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 03:52:45 pm
his next move is the change of the voting options on the "Putin the Best!" with 33% votes in each, sneaky russian  :evil:
With 33% in EACH of the 4 categories... thats the proper way to do it "putler style" :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 04:30:57 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 04:04:33 pm
With 33% in EACH of the 4 categories... thats the proper way to do it "putler style" :rolleyes:
Oh my god u got it! u soooo smart! your country can be proud of you!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 04:43:30 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 04:30:57 pm
Oh my god u got it! u soooo smart! your country can be proud of you!  :P
Mai gad, you seriously praised me???
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 02, 2014, 04:47:40 pm
Germany asked his gold back. Americans said : "in the next century, maybe, GTFO now"

Bye bye ukrainian gold  :lol:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-gold-reserves-secretely-flown-out-and-confiscated-by-the-new-york-federal-reserve/5373446
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 02, 2014, 04:58:27 pm
fake
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 05:07:32 pm
only me and ivani4 voted for 1st option  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 02, 2014, 05:19:35 pm
me too !

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


so proud
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 05:39:20 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 02, 2014, 02:25:35 pm
Didnt understand it like that, point taken  :wink:
Here a different understanding. In Russia: «Black» people are very evil, very evil man, man has a black soul. People with black skin is "friend". People with dark skin - Caucasian. People with yellow skin and narrow eyes - Asian. The word «friend», in Russia - not an insult.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 02, 2014, 05:44:45 pm
That's in Russia and in russian, but not in english.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 07:33:04 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 02, 2014, 05:07:32 pm
only me and ivani4 voted for 1st option  :P
But neither of you posted your witty or boring resons :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 02, 2014, 08:03:31 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 02, 2014, 04:58:27 pm
fake

How dare you :?: :!:

Tovi spends hours every day filtering, analyzing all information he can find and posting only 100% confirmed facts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 08:29:59 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 02, 2014, 07:33:04 pm
But neither of you posted your witty or boring resons :P
I have not answered questions of « Kuujis questionnaire».
A possible scenario soon: Ukraine invades Russia. Ukraine occupies the entire territory of the Russian Federation. Russia surrenders. The victory. The holiday. Salute. Democratic elections. Putin - the President of «Kyiv Rus». :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 10:32:18 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 02, 2014, 08:29:59 pm
A possible scenario soon: Ukraine invades Russia. Ukraine occupies the entire territory of the Russian Federation. Russia surrenders. The victory. The holiday. Salute. Democratic elections. Putin - the President of «Kyiv Rus». :twisted:
You don't like this development? Why? Everybody in Russia and in Ukraine will become better! We, in the new state, will be a lot of people. 143 000 000 + 45 000 000 (Ukraine)+10 000 000 (Belarus) + 17 000 000 (Kazakhstan)= 215 000 000 (!). There will be more competent workers and engineers. Our army will become bigger and stronger. We will develop more new mineral deposits. Not only in the tundra, in the North, in Siberia, but also in the Arctic, in the Black sea. We will have more and cheaper to sell resources. The whole world (Europe and China are uniquely) will receive economic growth.
Even Ukrainian nationalists will find for himself something. In Russia today, there are more than 1000 cities, more than 130 000 small settlements. Missionaries from the «right sector» will be taught to speak Ukrainian residents of the Urals, Siberia, Taymyr, Yamal and Kamchatka... there are a lot of places in Russia where you can carry weapons (hunting of course). One person will be able to «teach» the good citizens of 3-4 settlements. For many years of work...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 02, 2014, 10:43:08 pm
Please somebody teach me how to Ivani4

i cant it logic
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 02, 2014, 10:43:39 pm
You just quoted yourself mate.

This or you forgot to switch to your vovka forum account... you dirty multi accounter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 03, 2014, 09:26:29 am
Quote from: Christo on April 02, 2014, 10:43:08 pm
Please somebody teach me how to Ivani4

i cant it logic
I think he just watched the putler'the'emotional speech again and got some high flying "slav world" ideas in his head and just wanted to let this storm rage on and let it go and because he was never bothered by it anyway...

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 03, 2014, 09:34:22 am
It's kind of weird that someone that never ever said a word would suddenly be so active. Vovka !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 03, 2014, 09:41:23 am
Does anyone even read ivani's posts?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 03, 2014, 10:17:00 am
Quote from: Butan on April 02, 2014, 04:58:27 pm
fake

Prouve le. (http://reseauinternational.net/demenagement-de-lor-ukrainien/)


(et le fait de ne pas en avoir entendu parler sur TF1 n'est pas une preuve)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 03, 2014, 11:01:45 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 03, 2014, 09:34:22 am
It's kind of weird that someone that neidtver ever said a word would suddenly be so active. Vovka !

He got an ego boost from Crimean "Russia Stronk" euphoria and russia today crackpot coverage. That put him slightly above the below-the-radar (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/eu-vs-na-funny-pics-good-thread-is-bad/msg920863/#msg920863) confidence threshold. Also google translate gives him the illusion that he can communicate with the outside world now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 03, 2014, 11:39:34 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 03, 2014, 09:34:22 am
It's kind of weird that someone that never ever said a word would suddenly be so active. Vovka !
i have fun here ^^

Quote from: Paul on April 03, 2014, 11:01:45 am
He got an ego boost from Crimean "Russia Stronk" euphoria and russia today crackpot coverage. That put him slightly above the below-the-radar confidence threshold. Also google translate gives him the illusion that he can communicate with the outside world now.

where did you get so much anger ((
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 03, 2014, 12:11:23 pm
Ivani4 was better when he shut his communist mouth up and just spammed with his cleaver like a brainless brute ingame.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 03, 2014, 12:43:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 03, 2014, 09:41:23 am
Does anyone even read ivani's posts?

I do. He's interesting read, especially after I'm done reading so much euromy old friend propaganda. Some would say he's like Panos, but he is obviously older, mature and much more dangerous.

@Paul: NA has a lot of shit talkers, trolls and such. Those bellow the radar people you're mentioning often show different characteristics. They are not trolls, but pure nationalists filled with hatred. This has to be the first community where I've seen so many people like that in one place. Wonder why.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 03, 2014, 01:17:06 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 03, 2014, 12:43:18 pm
I do. He's interesting read, especially after I'm done reading so much euromy old friend propaganda. Some would say he's like Panos, but he is obviously older, mature and much more dangerous.

@Paul: NA has a lot of shit talkers, trolls and such. Those bellow the radar people you're mentioning often show different characteristics. They are not trolls, but pure nationalists filled with hatred. This has to be the first community where I've seen so many people like that in one place. Wonder why.

Nationalists are attracted by the past and romanticise it at absurd levels. I'm sure if you ask some Bulgarians they'll remember events more than half a millenia old and pretend those are important, it's not surprising a game about medieval combat attracts those types. I mean, there are still French royalists around today, this is like the best game ever for them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 03, 2014, 01:39:00 pm
Like Communists is better.

AFA
Stalin
Mao
USSR 2.0 ready to invade Ukraine
etc...


But nooooo... ''fight the evil globalist America biased capitalist western nations''. Amirite or what? Duuuh
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 03, 2014, 02:00:12 pm
Denying history and its impacts on humanity even hundred years after is as old as going fubar for historical reasons.

You just cant stop it Kafein, embrace it !  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 03, 2014, 04:33:07 pm
New candidate for president registered : Darth Vader  :D

Real guy who changed his name.
He even paid ~200k$ to participate in elections :) - mandatory pledge to participate.
He didn't publish his full program yet, but already said that his first decision will be :

Rename Ukraine to the First Galactic Empire  :mrgreen:

For those who can understand ukrainian: http://www.cvk.gov.ua/pls/acts/ShowCard?id=35783   :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 03, 2014, 05:55:07 pm
Quote from: serr on April 03, 2014, 04:33:07 pm
New candidate for president registered : Darth Vader  :D

Real guy who changed his name.
He even paid ~200k$ to participate in elections :) - mandatory pledge to participate.
He didn't publish his full program yet, but already said that his first decision will be :

Rename Ukraine to the First Galactic Empire  :mrgreen:

For those who can understand ukrainian: http://www.cvk.gov.ua/pls/acts/ShowCard?id=35783   :)

 :shock:  seems legit. but probably 1st of April.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on April 03, 2014, 06:08:24 pm
I am not sure about that, I have been seeing things along those lines since before April 1st... eg from March 31st
http://news.sky.com/story/1234707/darth-vader-joins-battle-to-rule-ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 03, 2014, 07:20:58 pm
Oh no, they didn't let him in  :cry:

Accused him in providing wrong information. In his application he said that he works in "Dark Side of the Force" as right hand of emperor Palpatine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 03, 2014, 07:24:58 pm
Meanwhile in Ukraine...

Quote from: Arked on March 25, 2011, 11:34:18 am
Politics and stuff..
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 03, 2014, 07:56:15 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 03, 2014, 02:00:12 pm
Denying history and its impacts on humanity even hundred years after is as old as going fubar for historical reasons.

You just cant stop it Kafein, embrace it !  :mrgreen:

How is rejecting nationalism equal to "denying history" ? That's the opposite of the truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 03, 2014, 08:21:25 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 03, 2014, 01:39:00 pm
Like Communists is better.

AFA
Stalin
Mao
USSR 2.0 ready to invade Ukraine
etc...


But no fight the ''evil globalist America biased capitalist western nations''. Amirite or what? Duuuh

Your country is communist country. In Russia and my country people are dying when they get ill because they don't have the money to pay for proper treatment. That is not communism.

Your "capitalist" Sweden pays for even the most expensive operations because welfare aka communism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Fredom on April 03, 2014, 10:19:53 pm
So I heard people are complaining about who made the one side shoot at the others, I don't know but maybe you have some useful thoughts or maybe even know it !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 03, 2014, 10:29:40 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 03, 2014, 08:21:25 pm
Your country is communist country. In Russia and my country people are dying when they get ill because they don't have the money to pay for proper treatment. That is not communism.

Your "capitalist" Sweden pays for even the most expensive operations because welfare aka communism.

And joining USSR 2.0 is the answer i'd guess lol? Comrade Stalin will save everyone from the oppression of the western nations ))))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 03, 2014, 10:56:55 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 03, 2014, 08:21:25 pm
Your country is communist country. In Russia and my country people are dying when they get ill because they don't have the money to pay for proper treatment. That is not communism.

Your "capitalist" Sweden pays for even the most expensive operations because welfare aka communism.
Sorry, but this statement of yours is full of shit. There is communism in Sweden? Hell no.  There is socialism in Sweden? Hell YES! Is there a difference? DOUBLE hell YES! (unless you want to blam Obama and join the tea party movement...  :rolleyes: )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 04, 2014, 06:59:13 am
No comments:
http://portall.tv/news.php?id_news=1792
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 04, 2014, 08:17:12 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 04, 2014, 06:59:13 am
No comments:
http://portall.tv/news.php?id_news=1792

Must be true, because they read it on the facebook...  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2014, 11:27:33 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 03, 2014, 08:21:25 pm
Your country is communist country. In Russia and my country people are dying when they get ill because they don't have the money to pay for proper treatment. That is not communism.

Your "capitalist" Sweden pays for even the most expensive operations because welfare aka communism.

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism

Of course, Scandinavian countries are far from full-fledged socialism as well, but calling them "communist" is about as far from the truth as you can get.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 04, 2014, 12:52:25 pm
Compared to Russian Federation they are "communist". What Thomek said to Dark Blade can be used the other way around, how many of you have been in Russia? Modern Russia is one of the most ruthless examples of capitalism in action, no trace of communism left.

Also fyi, neither North Korea is a communist country nowadays (they are military driven, isolated state where people are slaves to the great leader), China stopped being commie state ages ago. And communism in latin America, while strong, is still far behind "socialist" Norway at least if we look at positive aspects of communism.

You see, in commie Yugoslavia everyone (except dirty high level politician) was a "worker" and system had a tendency to decrease class differences between those workers. But you had to work to survive. In Norway, you can be an immigrant and don't even work, yet get the same salary as honest worker who's employed at low wage jobs. And you can do that for a loong period of time. So yeah, Norway is the dream of lazy Yugo worker from the 70s, communism they aways wanted to have :lol:

I've read somewhere that if economy of Norway collapsed today, they would still have 100 years to live in the same way they do today because of reserves they accumulated. Smart people I say, know how to organize their resources.

Also communism is general is idea of classless society where there is no private property. That can be achieved in many ways, stupid implementation of Marx the drunkard is just one of them. Amish society is based on communism too. Socialism is what comes before communism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 04, 2014, 01:25:05 pm
That is the turning fighters WHITE HAMMER, RIGHT SECTOR, NARNIA AND PART SOTNIKOV self-DEFENSE. (full text).
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 04, 2014, 01:58:44 pm
Some news:

Applications to president elections are closed. 23 candidates registered, a lot of expected candidates refused to take part in elections: Vitaly Klitschko (~>10% of votes, refused to take part to consolidate votes for Petro Poroshenko), Arseniy Yatsenyuk (~5% of votes, refused to take part to solve economical crisis). Most expected scenario (just my personal thoughts) is Poroshenko gets ~25-30% of votes in the first round while Tymoshenko gets ~15-20% of votes. Poroshenko then wins the 2nd round with ~65% of votes.


Russian military SUV "Tiger" penetrated Crimean trolley, there are victims both in trolley and Tiger but there is no additional info, Crimean police refuses to give any info. There are rumours that drivers of Tiger were drunk and exceeded the speed limit.

Russian ambassadors from 3rd world countries have euphoria
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 04, 2014, 02:13:56 pm
(click to show/hide)

I really like your posts in this thread ( no sarcasm, i reall do ), but since you dont have magic words in your text, no one will care. Let me fix it for you, so it can be digested by the majority here. Will only need these three: democracy, freedom, revolution.

Quote from: Leshma on April 04, 2014, 12:52:25 pm
Compared to Russian Federation they are democratic. What Thomek said to Dark Blade can be used the other way around, how many of you have been in Russia? Modern Russia is one of the most ruthless examples of anti-democracy in action, no trace of freedom left.

Also fyi, neither North Korea is a democratic country nowadays (they are military driven, isolated state where people are slaves to the great leader), China stopped being freedom state ages ago. And freedom in latin America, while strong, is still far behind democratic Norway at least if we look at positive aspects of freedom.

You see, in pre-democratic Yugoslavia everyone (except dirty high level politician) was a "worker" and system had a tendency to decrease class differences between those workers. But you had to work to survive. In Norway, you can be an immigrant and don't even work, yet get the same salary as honest worker who's employed at low wage jobs. And you can do that for a loong period of time. So yeah, Norway is the dream of lazy Yugo worker from the 70s, freedom they always wanted to have :lol:

I've read somewhere that if democracy of Norway collapsed today, they would still have 100 years to live in the same way they do today because of freedom reserves they accumulated. Smart people I say, know how to organize their resources.

Also non-democracy in general is idea of classless society where there is no freedom. That can be achieved in many ways, stupid implementation of Marx the drunkard is just one of them. Amish society is based on democracy too. Revolution is what comes before freedom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 04, 2014, 02:23:08 pm
Funnily enough, ex-communist states nowadays have ridiculous income disparity and very little welfare. But communism isn't high welfare and income equality, communism is the destruction of property.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 04, 2014, 02:39:09 pm
One aspect of communism is the transformation of private property into public property owned by everyone, yeah. But income equality is at least an aspect of the needed predecessor of communism - socialism - and only because there is no income in a communistic society(which never has been realised so far) because it doesn't need any money.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 04, 2014, 02:44:48 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 04, 2014, 02:23:08 pm
But communism isn't high welfare and income equality, communism is the destruction of property.

Maybe not communism per se, but most communist country had free care and low income disparity, which was more or less dissolved by the local corruption.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 04, 2014, 02:49:00 pm
If by low income disparity you mean the Party members and some chosen toadies living like kings in comparison to commoners (lets not even talk about people that had any relation whatsoever to anyone, that may have been considered a "recidivist"), then yeah, sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 04, 2014, 03:28:34 pm
You missed the corruption part  :mrgreen:

Legally even the top salary in ussr had not much better wages than the standard worker. Then of course, irregularities ensued and the state being corrupt didnt help.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 04, 2014, 03:33:24 pm
In SU, wage was far less important than access to goods, what with shortages in everything. Pretty much everyone had money, that they could do nothing with. Wage hardly counted as a measure of standard of living under SU.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 04, 2014, 04:10:31 pm
Scandinavia is far from socialist. The easiest way to describe it is as a kind of "pragmatism". They do what make sense macro-economically.

They are only socialist in the most basic ethical sense:   Create most good for most. That's the purpose of society and the state.

HOW they do it, is of less importance. Ideologies of both capitalism and socialism are subject to whatever works to reach that goal. Sometimes socialistic ideas does the trick, other times, capitalistic ideas. The goal remains the same.

If giving people health care can make them go to the doctor sooner, get them back to work sooner (to pay taxes and sustain themselves), then it makes sense. If criminals can be turned away from crime, that's cheaper than putting them into jail again and again. So the focus of the crime politics is not revenge, but to "fix" them.   (and it works better than in any other place on earth. The terrorist is another discussion.)

Since the politics and society are really stable, we don't see the extremely hard fronts like other countries. This makes it easier for politicians to turn around and do the most sensible thing.  Now, it's not perfect, by any means, but it is certainly better for most people than almost anywhere else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 04, 2014, 04:50:35 pm
Very high public funding in some sectors (like education, security or healthcare) makes more sense economically than relying on private investment. In some sense, doing that is not an ideologic statement.

Just like liberalising the water market is a capitalist ideologic statement because it's really stupid from an economics point of view.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 04, 2014, 05:04:58 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 04, 2014, 01:58:44 pm
Some news:

Applications to president elections are closed. 23 candidates registered, a lot of expected candidates refused to take part in elections: Vitaly Klitschko (~>10% of votes, refused to take part to consolidate votes for Petro Poroshenko), Arseniy Yatsenyuk (~5% of votes, refused to take part to solve economical crisis). Most expected scenario (just my personal thoughts) is Poroshenko gets ~25-30% of votes in the first round while Tymoshenko gets ~15-20% of votes. Poroshenko then wins the 2nd round with ~65% of votes.

Doesn't really matter who'll become the president (unless those right wing dudes win which is highly unlikely). You'll soon change the constitution which will give more power to prime minister, like in every EU state. And prime minister will be Yatsenyuk. He's EU puppet just like Yuschenko was Russian, but that's what you wanted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 04, 2014, 06:27:44 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 04, 2014, 03:33:24 pm
In SU, wage was far less important than access to goods, what with shortages in everything. Pretty much everyone had money, that they could do nothing with. Wage hardly counted as a measure of standard of living under SU.

This. In countries occupied by soviets with puppet regimes, an urban legend is often noted where if people see gathering in a line, they MUST join the line and wait because it doesn't matter what is going to be sold there, they'll need it because of market shortages.

This is true, the urban legend says that two people were standing next to a kiosk or whatever talking, and people thought something will be sold there, in a few minutes the line had a LOT of people, they waited for nothing because the kiosk was closed.

Also there was an insane spending spree when the Austrian borders were opened with limitations like a spending limit, etc. Austria gained tons of profit from that in just a few days time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 05, 2014, 12:00:36 am
Russia raises gas prices for Ukraine by 80 percent (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/04/uk-ukraine-crisis-gas-idUKBREA330C520140404)

Still far cheaper than the price we pay...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 05, 2014, 03:35:07 am
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-servicemen-leave-crimea-8-000-join-russia-1.2597940 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-servicemen-leave-crimea-8-000-join-russia-1.2597940)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 05, 2014, 10:46:59 am
Quote
Russia raises gas prices for Ukraine by 80 percent

Still far cheaper than the price we pay...

Really? And what price do you pay?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 05, 2014, 10:50:51 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 05, 2014, 12:00:36 am
Russia raises gas prices for Ukraine by 80 percent (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/04/uk-ukraine-crisis-gas-idUKBREA330C520140404)

Still far cheaper than the price we pay...
Afaik, this 80% raise means that the price is now the normal 100%, without any discount.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 05, 2014, 02:24:07 pm
Quote from: Christo on April 05, 2014, 03:35:07 am
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-servicemen-leave-crimea-8-000-join-russia-1.2597940 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-servicemen-leave-crimea-8-000-join-russia-1.2597940)

Traitors to the glory of the Ukraine people! Or obviously fake, because no desertion ever occured from our side.

(click to show/hide)



Still no news of any Putin/Obama peaceful resolution? Economical sanctions still in place?

How bad is the entrenchment going on from Ukrainian side (both on crimean-russia border and russia mainland) and on Russian side? Any sign of possible conflicts or is anyone content to just sit on the borders?

Also how are the protests in eastern Ukraine going? It completely stopped or is it still going on, with a possibility of a similar situation occuring there (referendum to join Russia)?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 05, 2014, 02:37:38 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 05, 2014, 02:24:07 pm
(click to show/hide)

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1zz0hh/ukraine_sticky_post/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1zz0hh/ukraine_sticky_post/)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 05, 2014, 03:37:00 pm
Thanks, its hard to keep up to date  :D


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/deposed-yanukovych-wants-russia-to-give-crimea-back-to-ukraine/2014/04/02/e37124b6-561b-45c6-9390-a0d7d346ded6_story.html


Yanukovich pulling a dick move on Russia to have a better chance at becoming Ukraine president again? (supported by Russia behind the scene maybe? :lol: evil genius)
 Even if he publically apologized and did his best at becoming the new saint of this world, I think his history will works against him too much on the short-term. Possibly next president of Ukraine after the first new one fucks up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 05, 2014, 03:51:39 pm
Quote from: serr on April 05, 2014, 10:46:59 am
Really? And what price do you pay?

They say that current price is 490 USD, but that's political propaganda used in election campaign. Last years price (from december) was 540 USD per 1000 cubic meters.

Take into account that we're "friendly" country, that we sold our national oil company to Gazprom for a portion of what actually is worth (15% of the price) and that Russians are building a pipe through Serbia as we speak, which they fully own.

But we also have smaller population than you guys... although Slovenians still pay less than us.

Now back to UKR. If you guys were independent state (which you aren't) you could raise the transit price through your country by 80%. But unfortunately you can't do that, because if you tried your prime minister would become history. If you pulled it off somehow, in few months you would have German tanks on your western border...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 05, 2014, 10:10:05 pm
 :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on April 05, 2014, 11:56:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 05, 2014, 10:10:05 pm
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Best post ever written in this topic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 06, 2014, 12:41:16 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 05, 2014, 03:51:39 pm
Now back to UKR. If you guys were independent state (which you aren't) you could raise the transit price through your country by 80%. But unfortunately you can't do that, because if you tried your prime minister would become history. If you pulled it off somehow, in few months you would have German tanks on your western border...

    8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on April 06, 2014, 03:09:55 am
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/05/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/05/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html)

Quote from: (CNN)
-- Ukrainian authorities have dismantled an armed underground group they claim was plotting against the Kiev-based government and planned to launch an attack in a few days, that nation's top security agency announced Saturday.
Fifteen people were detained following a large-scale operation in the eastern city of Luhansk, the Security Service said in a statement. The raid also netted about 300 guns, a grenade launcher as well as numerous grenades, Molotov cocktails and a significant amount of knives, according to the agency.
The Security Service alleges the group was plotting to carry out an attack April 10 in Luhansk. Those detained face charges that include betraying the government and weapons violations.
This announcement came out the same day that U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that the "world will respond" to Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region, which has heightened tensions not only in Ukraine but around the world.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 06, 2014, 04:50:37 am
Quote from: Nessaj on April 06, 2014, 03:09:55 am
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Thats what you could have rounded about in maidan  :P

Does the news says who were the guys? Since the extremist movement behind maidan feels betrayed by the new government, it could be Ukrainians that were fighting against Yanukovitch before :o on the payroll of Russia now maybe?


If there is no details on who they are and for what purpose they wanted to do this, and no photos of the prisoners, it could be anything, even a fake. Or just an additionnal good find to throw to the mob and increase the fear of russian invasion.

The few things I hear on the mainstream media in France is Russia having posted "offensive" weapons (zooming on fixed artillery while saying "offensive", the noobs) along the borders of Crimea-Russian/Ukraine and Russia/Ukraine, that they heavily outgun and terrorize the population and could attack anytime, and that they mined and entrenched themselves to a "dangerous" level.
While of course, the just and right Ukrainians who are posted opposite them are in fear of what the russians may do, and that they think they are up to something! Thus they stand guard, for the sake of world freedom etc etc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zhyang on April 06, 2014, 11:00:42 am
crimea river
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 06, 2014, 05:32:38 pm
(click to show/hide)
g-translate:
Received a letter from somebody named Victor:
"I am the rightful ruler of one Eastern European country. Fascist junta seized all power as a result of the illegal coup. However, there are still more than 3,000,000,000 billions on my account , but I can not take them off, because I am on the run, in a desperate situation. So I need your help ... just $ 100 - and I'm ready to share with you half the amount owed ​​to me."

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 06, 2014, 05:41:18 pm
Not 3,000,000,000, not 3 billions, but 3,000,000,000 billions!!!!

Segd dont think twice, its a golden opportunity!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 06, 2014, 06:22:48 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 06, 2014, 05:41:18 pm
Segd dont think twice, its a golden opportunity!
Already  8-)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 06, 2014, 07:01:37 pm
Why talk about Crimea? In this thread to discuss the events in Ukraine.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 

When there was a reunion of West and East Germany, Russia assumed the debts of the GDR. If there will be a division of Central and Western Ukraine from the Eastern regions of Ukraine, who will pay for the debts of Ukraine? What are today the debts of Ukraine? In Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkiv regions, have debts on credits?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 06, 2014, 08:13:16 pm
What makes you think eastern Ukraine would separate..?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 06, 2014, 08:18:43 pm
Actually I think a seperate Russia-controlled East Ukraine would be the best solution. Both EU and Russia need a shithole belt (like Belarus) between each other, just like Best Korea between China and Good Korea. We prolly have to give back Estonia too. Sorry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 07, 2014, 01:18:38 pm
No one wants to live in shithole belt though

Quote from: Butan on April 06, 2014, 04:50:37 am
Thats what you could have rounded about in maidan  :P

:lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 07, 2014, 04:10:45 pm
Meanwhile in Ukraine...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26910210

Protesters have firearms and don't even try to hide them. Now I don't see good way to solve this, there will be bloodshed. Its scale totally depends on Russia's actions now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 07, 2014, 04:17:31 pm
Sending in the Ukrainian army to protect the Ukrainian minority in the East Ukraine should be in the interest of Russia, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on April 07, 2014, 04:40:49 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 07, 2014, 07:58:51 pm
Some music for you, guys:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 08, 2014, 03:29:20 pm
any new info for the residents on happenings in Donetsk and easter part of the country?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 08, 2014, 03:59:45 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 08, 2014, 03:29:20 pm
any new info for the residents on happenings in Donetsk and easter part of the country?

Ukraine Moves to Reassert Control Over Restive East (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/world/europe/russia-ukraine-unrest.html?ref=world&_r=1)

Kharkiv settles down, while pro-Russian separatists still hold buildings in Luhansk, Donetsk (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/kharkiv-settles-down-while-pro-russian-separatists-still-hold-buildings-in-luhansk-donetsk-342517.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 05:24:25 pm
Meeting of the regional Council, Donetsk (15:00 08.04.2014, 2009)
Accept the petition. Appoint a provisional coalition government Donetsk Republic. Preparing for defense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 08, 2014, 05:30:50 pm
Quote from: Christo on April 08, 2014, 03:59:45 pm
Ukraine Moves to Reassert Control Over Restive East (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/world/europe/russia-ukraine-unrest.html?ref=world&_r=1)

Kharkiv settles down, while pro-Russian separatists still hold buildings in Luhansk, Donetsk (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/kharkiv-settles-down-while-pro-russian-separatists-still-hold-buildings-in-luhansk-donetsk-342517.html)


Thx for the link s Christo, some interesting reads. Blackwater mentioned again, where there
 Is smoke....

 
Video seems to be unavailable atm ivanič
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 08, 2014, 06:06:56 pm
Time to hear pro-maidan forum warrior comment on those events :)


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 06:11:59 pm
Quote from: serr on April 07, 2014, 04:10:45 pm
...
Protesters have firearms and don't even try to hide them...
Who in Ukraine has today weapons? Today, the weapon is at all. Even in your Zaporozhye, factories for several weeks the criminals live from "the right sector" (red-black flags). They also have, machine guns, rocket launchers…
And this is the city of Nikolaev, . "Peaceful supporters integrity of Ukraine" to convince, "supporters of a Federal system of Ukraine", remove the tents from the building of the regional administration and to end the meeting:
 
Lugansk, night 07.04.-08.04:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 08, 2014, 08:12:26 pm
Quote
Lugansk, night 07.04.-08.04: 

Lol, I watched this video around two months ago  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 08:31:06 pm
Quote from: serr on April 08, 2014, 08:12:26 pm
Lol, I watched this video around two months ago  :D
Then utube.com the same "propaganda".  :mrgreen: But if you saw it already, why surprised the presence of weapons?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 08, 2014, 08:37:26 pm
There is difference between traumatic weapons with rubber bullets and firearms with live rounds
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 08:45:58 pm
In Ukraine today, a huge number of people with weapons. As your country has by large reserves of wild people. Criminal (located in the international search, Ukraine demanded his extradition from Italy) Avakov promised to lay off 30% of police officers in Eastern Ukraine. He is a KGB agent.  :lol: How many new qualified soldiers will come in the army Donetsk Republic.
http://www.zoomby.ru/watch/zahvat-zaporozhstali-boeviki-obyasnili-revolyucionnoi-neobhodimostyu   This is a report about your city. Zaporozhye. The city in which everyone likes to throw hammers into the windshield of the car. Guns from gangsters to play airsoft?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 08, 2014, 09:13:42 pm
WHAT? :shock:

Or wait, that's russian tv, it explains all
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 09:34:46 pm
Quote from: serr on March 27, 2014, 09:39:55 pm

...По поводу беспредела на отвалах - сказать что он начался после победы майдана было бы неправильно, он там не заканчивался с 90-х. В 2010 году они полностью перешли под контроль группировки, лояльной предыдущей власти, сейчас, разумеется, идет передел. Кто их сейчас займет - правый сектор, который ничего хорошего из себя не представляет, или обычные бандиты под маской "бойцов революции" я не знаю, да и вобщем-то с учетом событий в Киеве, не так уж и важно. ...
  :rolleyes:

This is not Russian TV. These are your words. You are not outraged by armed people in your city. You are savages.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 08, 2014, 09:41:18 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 09:34:46 pm
You are not outraged by armed people in your city. You are savages.

You are not outraged by your own government sending unmarked armed people into another country.

You are savages.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 09:44:44 pm
Hmm... 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 08, 2014, 09:45:29 pm
Nevermind, zergling.

Obey the overmind and everything will be good
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 08, 2014, 10:33:20 pm
Odessa. "Self-defense" caught "enemy".
The people of Ukraine turns into a moral freaks.  :evil:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 08, 2014, 10:37:02 pm
I think that Ivani doesn't block not because his mouse has only one button, but because he has only one brain cell. Hm, saying sth like that probably I'm not better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 08, 2014, 10:39:57 pm
Apparently that 15 year old is a spy , sent from Putin to destroy Ukraine all by himself.

Well done Ukranians, you saved the day!!! Such bravery, 15 men against a teenager!!!


Quote from: Falka on April 08, 2014, 10:37:02 pm
I think that Ivani doesn't block not because his mouse has only one button, but because he has only one brain cell


Well done, you said your bullshit, now crawl back to your shithole.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 08, 2014, 11:32:38 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 08, 2014, 10:39:57 pm
Well done, you said your bullshit, now crawl back to your shithole.

Maximum irony
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 08, 2014, 11:47:20 pm
"Hey, it's okay. Everybody's being cool".
[/randomquote]
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 09, 2014, 12:07:54 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 09, 2014, 12:14:20 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 08, 2014, 11:32:38 pm
Maximum irony

Oh look, its the french lord of shitlords

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You wanna know why I love Putin that much???

Because of what communism destroyed in 90~ years, Putin fixed it in less than a decade.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on April 09, 2014, 12:43:26 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on April 09, 2014, 05:34:38 am
Quote from: Christo on April 08, 2014, 09:41:18 pm
You are not outraged by your own government sending unmarked armed people into another country.

You are savages.

Governments sending unmarked interlopers to ferment disorder in another country? By the Gods, this has never happened before!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 09, 2014, 06:39:10 am
Putin tries to fix what Jelzin destroyed with his idea of smash-and-grab capitalism within a few years. At that time a few individuals(now known as oligarchs) obtained the riches of Russia literally for an apple and an egg. The thing one can really blame the West for is that they held Jelzin's hand and encouraged him instead of preventing this shit back then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 09, 2014, 08:25:19 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 09, 2014, 12:14:20 am
Oh look, its the french lord of shitlords

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You wanna know why I love Putin that much???

Because of what communism destroyed in 90~ years, Putin fixed it in less than a decade.

He fixed what exactly?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 09, 2014, 08:41:07 am
Quote from: Christo on April 08, 2014, 09:41:18 pm
You are not outraged by your own government sending unmarked armed people into another country.
yep its weird in 21c our government still sending troops, we must send UAV and rockets instead, as do all civilized countries  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 09, 2014, 11:32:45 am
West sends in unmarked men, topple some dictator government, start a war, popularity drops, government changes. Because they did bullshit.

russia sends in unmarked men, do a landgrab, start a war didn't start a war yet (not because of lack of trying too, just failed  :rolleyes: ), putler is suddenly slav hero to be reelected forever and ever and to fix all that is wrong in motherland. And the guys who vote with their feet and emigrate are just... well... missunderstanding.

Best way to solve internal problem is to find external enemy.

Oh, and Panos - you almost as hipster as the Butan. Good for you. Did you unlock the achievement?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 09, 2014, 12:20:46 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 09, 2014, 11:32:45 am
Best way to solve internal problem is to find external enemy.
wthat's why u hate putin and not ur goverment
Pull your head out of your ass, open eyes and be happy  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 09, 2014, 03:34:11 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 09, 2014, 11:32:45 am
...Best way to solve internal problem is to find external enemy. ...
It is the way today the governments of the EU countries and Ukraine. Why should Russia seek "external enemy"? Russia has always called "the invaders". "Outside enemy" we have always. To turn on the TV or radio is very simple. Huge and is not limited choice. Plug and "enjoy" threads "objective information" shit about Russians about Russia. So it was in the 20th century, this continues in the 21st century. It does not need Putin, Zhirinovsky, Medvedev or Zyuganov...
Europe considers Russia an enemy? Yes. But Russia is not convinced by the enemy EU. The U.S. sent warships in black sea pool. Let it swim (they floated and during the conflict in South Ossetia). This is the USA will have to think how to save his ships, if something will not happen so. Who should be afraid of Russia? Lithuanian "Forest brothers"? Crazy Yarosh, Tymoshenko? The Polish Army? Even my grandma laugh.  :mrgreen:
However, if You do not periodically to scare, "the civilized world" begins to engage in hooliganism and banditry. When the EU and the US, there is no pressure from Russia, "the bold hawks democracy" fly to do with " freedom in a totalitarian country". Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq, Syria... Who needs an "external enemy"? Who uses this ' trusted ' principle for many years?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 09, 2014, 06:27:11 pm
Ivani and Vovka do you know Garry Kasparov ?



Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 09, 2014, 12:14:20 am
Oh look, its the french lord of shitlords

Oh look, its the turkish lord of shitlords.

You see... I don't care, but you definitely do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 09, 2014, 06:51:52 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 09, 2014, 12:20:46 pm
Pull your head out of your ass, open eyes and be happy  :P

Oh mighty enlightened russian who receives the most pure and legimate news on earth, will u help us see these situations clearer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 07:49:36 pm
News you receive aren't any better than RT and stuff. That's the nature of the media. I remember very well what CNN and BBC were reporting while planes were dropping bombs on a hill near the place I'm living. Bunch of bullshit and lies.

Thankfully, we have fast way to spread news directly, from one person to another. But they want to take that away from us.

Westerners aren't morally superior to Russians or Chinese in any way, doesn't matter how hard they try to project it on others. Eastern powers are just more honest in their ways, more blunt. Westerners tend to sugarcoat a lot more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 09, 2014, 07:51:14 pm
Still BBC version of what's happening in Ukraine is much, MUCH closer to truth than what we can see on russian TV.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 08:02:56 pm
That's because situation is good for them so no need to lie. Russians din't sprout lies during bombing of Yugoslavia, because they had no interest to do so. Other side was already doing bad stuff, no need to present it than how it actually is.

What west is lying about is true backstory of Maidan. I know how that kind of revolution goes and who stands behind it. Tovi said one true thing, there were Otpor guys at Maidan. They were also present in Yugoslavia in 2000 where it all started.

Quote
Otpor members were instrumental in inspiring and providing hands-on training to several other civic youth organizations in Eastern Europe and elsewhere, including Kmara[107] in the Republic of Georgia (itself partly responsible for the downfall of Eduard Shevardnadze), Pora (black)[108][109] (which was part of the Orange Revolution) and Vidsich (opposing the president Viktor Yanukovych) in Ukraine, Zubr[107] in Belarus (opposing the president Alexander Lukashenko), MJAFT![110] in Albania, Oborona[111] in Russia (opposing the president Vladimir Putin), KelKel[109] in Kyrgyzstan (active in the revolution that brought down the president Askar Akayev), Bolga in Uzbekistan[112] (opposing Islam Karimov) and Nabad-al-Horriye[113] in Lebanon. A similar group of students was present in Venezuela against Hugo Chávez. In 2008, an April 6 Youth Movement was founded in Egypt, the group which has facilitated and joined the 2011 Egyptian protests, and took advice from Otpor in the process.

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor!#Otpor.21_leaders_after_Otpor.21)

Otpor is financed by US Congress and most of initial members were trained in USA.

Hopefully, you'll remember my words in five years or so when you realize how much bullshit you've been fed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 09, 2014, 08:29:40 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 08:02:56 pm
That's because situation is good for them so no need to lie. Russians din't sprout lies during bombing of Yugoslavia, because they had no interest to do so. Other side was already doing bad stuff, no need to present it than how it actually is.

What west is lying about is true backstory of Maidan. I know how that kind of revolution goes and who stands behind it. Tovi said one true thing, there were Otpor guys at Maidan. They were also present in Yugoslavia in 2000 where it all started.

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor!#Otpor.21_leaders_after_Otpor.21)

Otpor is financed by US Congress and most of initial members were trained in USA.

Hopefully, you'll remember my words in five years or so when you realize how much bullshit you've been fed.

FU Leshma. You took a paragraph out of context and presented it like another conspiracy theory.  From the same article:
"Otpor! (Serbian Cyrillic: Отпор!, English: Resistance!) was a civic youth movement that existed from 1998 until 2003 in Serbia (then a federal unit within FR Yugoslavia), employing nonviolent struggle against the regime of Slobodan Milošević as their course of action. In the course of two-year nonviolent struggle against Milošević, Otpor spread across Serbia and attracted more than 70,000 supporters. They were credited for their role in the successful overthrow of Slobodan Milošević on 5 October 2000.[1]

Otpor had an important "watch dog" role after the October 5, 2000 revolution. It launched campaigns to hold the new government accountable, pressing for democratic reforms and fighting corruption, as well as the unpopular cooperation with International Criminal Tribunal (ICTY) at the Hague.[2] In 2003, the group transformed into a political party, failed to pass the 5% threshold and win seats in the Serbian National assembly on elections, and soon ceased its activities by merging into the Democratic Party (DS)."

Also - youths being inspired by other successful youths is... like.... INTERNET MEME stuff. Its contagious, it uses the same symbol in their adapted situation, its NOTHING FRIGGIN NEW :)

CIA guys were present in Lithuania during 1990 CCCP attempts to install military rule. It was their advise to avoid armed resistance, what course to take, "do's" and "don'ts". Your mileage may wary, but I sure as hell would pick that help over what I see over the border in neighboring Belorussia or even the same russia (barring Moscow and St.Peterburg. Oh, and Sochi... :rolleyes:), which is where we would have ended.

Do you feel a difference in wiring x amount of cash to a movement, that you support Vs invading and annexing part of neighboring FRIENDLY nation? Because it sure as hell sounds like you don't.

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 09, 2014, 03:34:11 pm
It is the way today the governments of the EU countries and Ukraine. Why should Russia seek "external enemy"? Russia has always called "the invaders". "Outside enemy" we have always. To turn on the TV or radio is very simple. Huge and is not limited choice. Plug and "enjoy" threads "objective information" shit about Russians about Russia. So it was in the 20th century, this continues in the 21st century. It does not need Putin, Zhirinovsky, Medvedev or Zyuganov...
Europe considers Russia an enemy? Yes. But Russia is not convinced by the enemy EU. The U.S. sent warships in black sea pool. Let it swim (they floated and during the conflict in South Ossetia). This is the USA will have to think how to save his ships, if something will not happen so. Who should be afraid of Russia? Lithuanian "Forest brothers"? Crazy Yarosh, Tymoshenko? The Polish Army? Even my grandma laugh.  :mrgreen:
However, if You do not periodically to scare, "the civilized world" begins to engage in hooliganism and banditry. When the EU and the US, there is no pressure from Russia, "the bold hawks democracy" fly to do with " freedom in a totalitarian country". Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq, Syria... Who needs an "external enemy"? Who uses this ' trusted ' principle for many years?  :rolleyes:
Are you fucking kidding me? "if you want EU to be peacefull, you have to smash it in the face from time to time"? Seriously? Do you REALLY think this is the only way to coexist with your neighbor? How do your neigbors react to you threatening them from time to time, just you know... to keep friendly, constructive and "balanced" relations? Sad dude, sincerely sad.
Quote from: Vovka on April 09, 2014, 12:20:46 pm
wthat's why u hate putin and not ur goverment
Pull your head out of your ass, open eyes and be happy  :P
Please... I hate my current government WITH A PASSION. Though... a disclaimer: please refrain from invading and safeguarding me from my own hate by installing some puppet suitable for putler. kthxbai :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 09, 2014, 10:24:54 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 08:02:56 pm
That's because situation is good for them so no need to lie. Russians din't sprout lies during bombing of Yugoslavia, because they had no interest to do so. Other side was already doing bad stuff, no need to present it than how it actually is.

What west is lying about is true backstory of Maidan. I know how that kind of revolution goes and who stands behind it. Tovi said one true thing, there were Otpor guys at Maidan. They were also present in Yugoslavia in 2000 where it all started.

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor!#Otpor.21_leaders_after_Otpor.21)

Otpor is financed by US Congress and most of initial members were trained in USA.

Hopefully, you'll remember my words in five years or so when you realize how much bullshit you've been fed.

Ho my, they are supporting the opposition of Hugo Chavez. These guys are soooo evil.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 09, 2014, 11:13:21 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 08:02:56 pm
That's because situation is good for them so no need to lie.

In no other developed country a goverment would dare to take such drastic measures with such straightforward awnsers cause the public would lynch them almost at an instant and their political opponents would use it as ammo to gain ground. If you rule a country with an iron fist, there's no point of wasting energy on covering it up. So I dont think their situation is good. They just dont lie because the truth doesnt really harm the decisionmakers positions internally. Nobody wants to spend resource on sugarcoating, but it mostly has to be done. The fact that in Russia nobody even mostly bothers is bad at most part for the russians themselves and everyone else. Cause its kinda oblivious they dont give a crap about foregin relations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 09, 2014, 11:44:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 09, 2014, 08:29:40 pm
...Are you fucking kidding me? "if you want EU to be peacefull, you have to smash it in the face from time to time"? Seriously? Do you REALLY think this is the only way to coexist with your neighbor? How do your neigbors react to you threatening them from time to time, just you know... to keep friendly, constructive and "balanced" relations?...
Quite seriously. Look at the situation in the Donbas. Supporters of a Federal Ukraine demanded: "to Hold a referendum on the status of regions. And then to hold elections of the President". The Supreme Rada in Kyiv urgently adopt the law against such people and such "bad" actions. Now they are "separatists" and criminals. Announced the beginning of the antiterrorist operation. Verkhovna Rada Aparion calls to physically destroy supporters of a Federal system, calls them "being" worthy only of death"... (by the Way, in the EU or the US have such deputies? Such words it is possible to hear in parliaments?)
In a Federal system of government has advantages and disadvantages. Russia Federation. Probably, Russia is a bad example. The USA and Germany - are the same Federal States. In the USA, by the way, each state determines itself - what language can and should lead the state administration. In some States of the USA, the "official" are two and more ... But, now is not about "political views in the East of Ukraine, and not about the brutal persecution of dissenters" (while this is not the case)...
Question: what keeps the Ukrainian authorities to fulfill their threats? Answer: Fear. The Ukrainian authorities fear the actions of the Russian side. Serr (man reflects the opinion of the television of Ukraine) accurately said:
Quote from: serr on April 07, 2014, 04:10:45 pm
...Protesters have firearms and don't even try to hide them. Now I don't see good way to solve this, there will be bloodshed. Its scale totally depends on Russia's actions now...
What Russia they waiting for? Guarantees of "non-interference"? In vain. Maybe for You is a paradox. Nevertheless, the fear of Russia allows you still keep the situation in Ukraine from the beginning of hostilities, civil war. While the Ukrainian authorities are afraid of Russia - bloodshed will not. There is a time and place for the negotiation process.

P.S. Kafein, Are you interested in the history of chess? We have a lot of very talented players. Sadly only that they are all a little crazy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 11:46:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 09, 2014, 10:24:54 pm
Ho my, they are supporting the opposition of Hugo Chavez. These guys are soooo evil.

How many times I have to tell you there is no good or evil. For a scientist, you sure believe in god.

They aren't evil, but they are indeed paid by USA to bring democracy to the world. However, every country is independent and has laws against such activities which ultimate goal is to replace legally elected government by so called revolution.

Proof that what they are doing doesn't work is the fact that after few years people realize they made a wrong move supporting so called young revolutionaries. I would always support real revolution, but these paid ones smell bad and leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Otpor is now called CANVAS.

Fakeing Revolution - OTPOR - promoting Capitalism under Leftist Guise (http://democracyandclasstruggle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/fakeing-revolution-otpor-promoting.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 11:47:32 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 09, 2014, 11:13:21 pm
In no other developed country a goverment would dare to take such drastic measures with such straightforward awnsers cause the public would lynch them almost at an instant and their political opponents would use it as ammo to gain ground. If you rule a country with an iron fist, there's no point of wasting energy on covering it up. So I dont think their situation is good. They just dont lie because the truth doesnt really harm the decisionmakers positions internally. Nobody wants to spend resource on sugarcoating, but it mostly has to be done. The fact that in Russia nobody even mostly bothers is bad at most part for the russians themselves and everyone else. Cause its kinda oblivious they dont give a crap about foregin relations.

What do you know about developed countries, you live in Latvia ffs...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 09, 2014, 11:58:02 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 11:46:07 pm
How many times I have to tell you there is no good or evil. For a scientist, you sure believe in god.
What do you think people are who kill children and women by the thousands? People responsible for the Rwandan Genocide etc?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on April 10, 2014, 12:12:57 am
Quote from: Xant on April 09, 2014, 11:58:02 pm
What do you think people are who kill children and women by the thousands? People responsible for the Rwandan Genocide etc?
People with different norms and values which are as valid as anyone else's.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 10, 2014, 12:22:27 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 11:46:07 pm
How many times I have to tell you there is no good or evil. For a scientist, you sure believe in god.

They aren't evil, but they are indeed paid by USA to bring democracy to the world. However, every country is independent and has laws against such activities which ultimate goal is to replace legally elected government by so called revolution.

Proof that what they are doing doesn't work is the fact that after few years people realize they made a wrong move supporting so called young revolutionaries. I would always support real revolution, but these paid ones smell bad and leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Otpor is now called CANVAS.

Fakeing Revolution - OTPOR - promoting Capitalism under Leftist Guise (http://democracyandclasstruggle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/fakeing-revolution-otpor-promoting.html)

I do believe some things are more desirable than others. I certainly don't believe national sovereignty is one of those, as I view it as a poison against the solving real issues. National sovereignty implies national interests. National interests are very often contrary to the interests of everybody because most real challenges that we face today and will face in the future are some form of the tragedy of the commons. We have to create legitimate and democratic global power structures, and to me the closest thing to that are the EU, the US and the UN with all its spin-offs. If establishing those structures requires supporting rebels to topple tyrants, then I'm all for it, as long as the violence is kept to a minimum. As you said, foreign support doesn't mean foreign control. Supporting the opposition means giving a chance to existing movements, not creating them. In other cases, time will eventually do the trick.

Quote from: Xant on April 09, 2014, 11:58:02 pm
What do you think people are who kill children and women by the thousands? People responsible for the Rwandan Genocide etc?

The byproduct of a classic Malthusian collapse ? Actually I'm somewhat with Leshma here. Human beings bar mentally ill know right and wrong, but none has superpowers preventing wrong to be done.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 10, 2014, 12:32:23 am
You don't need superpowers to not slaughter children?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 10, 2014, 02:23:27 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 10, 2014, 12:22:27 am
I do believe some things are more desirable than others. I certainly don't believe national sovereignty is one of those, as I view it as a poison against the solving real issues. National sovereignty implies national interests. National interests are very often contrary to the interests of everybody because most real challenges that we face today and will face in the future are some form of the tragedy of the commons. We have to create legitimate and democratic global power structures, and to me the closest thing to that are the EU, the US and the UN with all its spin-offs. If establishing those structures requires supporting rebels to topple tyrants, then I'm all for it, as long as the violence is kept to a minimum. As you said, foreign support doesn't mean foreign control. Supporting the opposition means giving a chance to existing movements, not creating them. In other cases, time will eventually do the trick.

I'm all for global government, but real global government where both of us are given equal chance from the birth to prove ourselves. I don't see that happening any time soon, looks to me more like USA is trying to sell globalization to enslave other countries to work for their cause, not global interest.

And I'm not defending my country, I don't even want live in this country, nor fix nor waste my time trying to pull impossible feats. In few years from now I plan to move to Canada.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 10, 2014, 02:36:58 am
Quote from: Teeth on April 10, 2014, 12:12:57 am
People with different norms and values which are as valid as anyone else's.

Different, sure. Valid, not so much. Destruction isn't going in our advantage. Church calls that evil doing, but the problem is that church likes to clasify anything that's not in their best interest as evil... that is why I don't like that word. Like word retard, at first was a medical term which described certain condition. Now its the most common insult...

I don't think that what Russia currently is much different from what other superpowers do. They just do it in different way and western world looks a lot shinier on the outside. Also most of the money westerners have is not direct result of their hard work. In many cases it is result of taking from the others. Colonies and stuff, you know...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on April 10, 2014, 03:02:03 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 10, 2014, 02:36:58 am
Different, sure. Valid, not so much. Destruction isn't going in our advantage. Church calls that evil doing, but the problem is that church likes to clasify anything that's not in their best interest as evil... that is why I don't like that word.
Good, my post stated the opposite of my own opinion, I detest moral (and cultural) relativism. Call it good and bad, right or wrong, then if that works better for you, but I am glad you do believe in some degree of universal morality.

Quote from: Kafein on April 10, 2014, 12:22:27 am
The byproduct of a classic Malthusian collapse ? Actually I'm somewhat with Leshma here. Human beings bar mentally ill know right and wrong, but none has superpowers preventing wrong to be done.
Well, saying that there is no good or evil or saying that there is good and evil but no way to prevent evil are two standpoints that deserve distinction I'd say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 10, 2014, 08:05:03 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 09, 2014, 06:51:52 pm
Oh mighty enlightened russian who receives the most pure and legimate news on earth, will u help us see these situations clearer.
I do not watch TV since 2001 :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 10, 2014, 08:36:29 am
Quote
Quote
...Protesters have firearms and don't even try to hide them. Now I don't see good way to solve this, there will be bloodshed. Its scale totally depends on Russia's actions now...
What Russia they waiting for? Guarantees of "non-interference"? In vain. Maybe for You is a paradox. Nevertheless, the fear of Russia allows you still keep the situation in Ukraine from the beginning of hostilities, civil war. While the Ukrainian authorities are afraid of Russia - bloodshed will not. There is a time and place for the negotiation process.

Alright, I overreacted a bit, there is still possibility of peaceful solution, small though. And it will disappear the moment they start shooting.
Would our government and police act tougher if there was no Russia or if it guaranteed "non-interference" ? Yes, definitely. Yet in that case there would be no protests or rather there would be protests but with some understandable demands, not for joining Russia.

Quote
While the Ukrainian authorities are afraid of Russia - bloodshed will not.
And here you are very wrong. Probably ukrainian authorities won't start bloodshed, that's true, but it doesn't mean it won't start at all. In fact there are constant fighting between pro-ukrainian and pro-russian people. Just without firearms with live rounds and not massive.. for now.

Another thing I'm afraid of...
You know, Zaporozhye is eastern city where people speak russian, yet there are no pro-russian rallies here now. Not because we don't have people who supports Russia, but because now they went to Donetsk, there were too few of them to do anything stupid here. And what I'm afraid of is that when/if they win in Donetsk - they will come to Zaporozhye, not alone, but with all those pro-russian protesters from Donetsk and other cities who went there and then it will be worse than in Kharkiv here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 08:41:38 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 10, 2014, 08:05:03 am
I do not watch TV since 2001 :P
TV is a tool with which people in the US, the EU and Ukraine are taught afraid russian  and Russia. If they are afraid of us, they build shelters and anti-strengthening. This is good! Are they getting a lot of work! They lack the time and funds, for that would be stupid to misbehave and with impunity to destroy the foundations of the life of other people.
 Each person of the "free world" must (even obliged) to keep his head in the TV! Then the rest of the "totalitarian and wrong" world of approximately 6 000 000 000) will be able to live peacefully and in accordance with their wishes.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 10, 2014, 09:26:08 am
black mirror 1s.2e
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 10, 2014, 09:42:21 am
Didnt read all forum text. I read a little in german news site. To me it seems what happened is following:

-  Julija Timoschenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko) was part of President Leonid Kutschmas regency from 1999-2001. She had the task to fight corruption in the energy departments under Primeminister  Wiktor Juschtschenko  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko) . Later she was imprisoned for corruption in this time period herself.

- 2004 Julija Timochenkon was part of the Orange Revolution wich started after a manipulated election where Kutschmas promoted successor  Wiktor Janukowitsch  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Janukovyt) was removed bcouse of electional fraud and Wiktor Juschtschenko prior primeminister became new president with Timochenko as primeminister. In the same year Juschtschenko was poisoned by unkonwn actors and survived. Political peace did not last long. Juschtschenko (neo-liberal) could not settle with Timochenko (social-democrat) and Timochenkos party was dismissend end of 2005.

- 2006 Wiktor Janukowitsch (who was removed due to manipulated election before) becomes primeminister and Timochenko goes in opposition. This also does not last long. New elections 2007:
- 2007 Julija Timochenko gets primeminister again.

- 2008 / 2009 Gas-crisis (what happened? Oligarch Dmytro Firtasch was involved?!) no gas was delivered - most probably becouse Ukraine could not pay the bills to russia. Media tells, that Timochenko made a deal with putin so gas was flowing again.

- 2010 Timochenko is only second in election for president and resigns. Now Janukowitsch (who was dismissed 2004 becouse of electoral fraud) becomes president (maybe there was electional fraud again, like Timochenko suggested - but probably he won becouse of massive [russian?] capital and PR-Agendas).

- 2011 Timochenko is imprisoned for various controversal allegations of bribary in the time of president Kutschma, who proposed the now ruling Janukowitch as his successor in 2004. The accusations are highly controversal, as there was no personal gain for Timochenko.

Now links to german news:

Putin plans Eurasian Union - german (https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/putin320.html)

 Putin plans Eurasin Union - first steps - german (https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/eurasischeunion100.html)

 Ukraine: pro Russians against pro EUs - german (https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/luganskunruhen100.html)

 Putin speaks and plays it simple - german (https://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/video/video1385884.html)

 And all over again - Big plans of Russia - german (https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/eurasische-union100.html)

So Putin only wants a stable economic area in Eurasia? But he does not care if nations are democratic or not.  Can one trust Russia to respect the sovereignity of the participating states? He does the best to show the world - one can not trust russia.

Is there only this choice: Ukrainian Nationalists lead a internally split and nearly bancrupt nation that can only hope on EU funds or Russian Protectorate with quite the same outcome?? Or is it not as it seems???


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 10, 2014, 09:54:33 am
Quote from: Xant on April 10, 2014, 12:32:23 am
You don't need superpowers to not slaughter children?

I've not been in that situation myself, how would I know ?

Quote from: Leshma on April 10, 2014, 02:23:27 am
I'm all for global government, but real global government where both of us are given equal chance from the birth to prove ourselves. I don't see that happening any time soon, looks to me more like USA is trying to sell globalization to enslave other countries to work for their cause, not global interest.

It seems to me that economically, globalization is not going too well for the US. Certainly not as well as in developping countries.

Quote from: Teeth on April 10, 2014, 03:02:03 am
Good, my post stated the opposite of my own opinion, I detest moral (and cultural) relativism. Call it good and bad, right or wrong, then if that works better for you, but I am glad you do believe in some degree of universal morality.
Well, saying that there is no good or evil or saying that there is good and evil but no way to prevent evil are two standpoints that deserve distinction I'd say.

The problem with moral whatever is that it's a human and biological construct, hence the idea of universal morality is kind of silly because it depends on how humans are built. Moral relativism is also silly because we are all more or less the same. It's only through a change in perspective that we view the same things with different value.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 10:01:36 am
Quote from: Eugen on April 10, 2014, 09:42:21 am
... Or is it not as it seems???
Almost so. Ukraine is a country where thieves, criminals and oligarchs ate all the food. People not working for 23 years. People live on the Maidan. Now we want to eat. Someone wants to eat in the EU. Someone thinks that Russia will have to feed more delicious and more. Now they fight. Whom to make poorer - the EU or Russia.  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 10, 2014, 10:25:34 am
A bitter laugh it is.

What stubberness it is: People dont want Janukowitsch and make a revolution. After 10 years same Janukowitsch gets President never the less - and again Revolution. This time Russia doesnt play puppet games anymore. Now tanks ride the krim. Its obvious. Democracy is just a farce for little big Putin.

EDIt:
seen the poll: he will and he should contiune to conquer Ukraine becouse:  he can and will not afford to lose his face. Priority maxime for Nixon will be good for Putin too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 10, 2014, 10:28:44 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 08:41:38 am
TV is a tool with which people in the US, the EU and Ukraine are taught afraid russian  and Russia. If they are afraid of us, they build shelters and anti-strengthening. This is good! Are they getting a lot of work! They lack the time and funds, for that would be stupid to misbehave and with impunity to destroy the foundations of the life of other people.
 Each person of the "free world" must (even obliged) to keep his head in the TV! Then the rest of the "totalitarian and wrong" world of approximately 6 000 000 000) will be able to live peacefully and in accordance with their wishes.  8-)

And the irony here is that ivani gets his info from Russian tv.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 10:38:33 am
Europe very carefully listens to Putin if he is silent.

The Putin phenomenon: the Governments and people of the democratic world want to see and listen to Putin! Putin should speak always! Only in this case in the EU's certainty and peace of mind. When Putin keeps silent, in Europe and Ukraine comes horror!
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 10, 2014, 11:33:01 am
I liked ivani better when he said nothing. Now I know he's a completely retarded piece of shit filled to the brim with conspiracy theories and propaganda. Stick to mindlessly spamming in the game ivani, geopolitics and real world events are beyond what I'll charitably call your mind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 11:57:58 am
The EU and the U.S. is a very big store. "European values" are goods in a huge supermarket. There's a lot of need for someone of things. Someone thinks that there's a lot of useless and even harmful stuff. However, the advertising of "European values" too Intrusive and aggressive. Motto: "Nothing personal. It's only business", justifies any violations of the freedom of other people. Other non-European freedom is bad, and not the right of freedom. You really think that the Good guys (from Europe and the United States) must punish the Bad guys (who don't want to eat "European values") to eat and to think correctly (according to the recipe of the "Great White People carrying the Truth of Europe").
"European" means the right and good? If so, then all actions are fair and justified. However, Your country and the people are very much mistaken.
Anti-ivani4 message from "fighter for European values" is a good example. Only shit from Europe has no smell! Shit Oberyn, best shit from best ass!
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 10, 2014, 12:40:09 pm
Quote from: Eugen on April 10, 2014, 09:42:21 am
But he does not care if nations are democratic or not. 
  Democracy is oppression minority  by majority  :P I personally against democracy, cos most people are idiots but still they want to influence on the country future  :evil:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 10, 2014, 12:44:24 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 11:57:58 am
The EU and the U.S. is a very big store. "European values" are goods in a huge supermarket. There's a lot of need for someone of things. Someone thinks that there's a lot of useless and even harmful stuff. However, the advertising of "European values" too Intrusive and aggressive. Motto: "Nothing personal. It's only business", justifies any violations of the freedom of other people. Other non-European freedom is bad, and not the right of freedom. You really think that the Good guys (from Europe and the United States) must punish the Bad guys (who don't want to eat "European values") to eat and to think correctly (according to the recipe of the "Great White People carrying the Truth of Europe").
"European" means the right and good? If so, then all actions are fair and justified. However, Your country and the people are very much mistaken.
Anti-ivani4 message from "fighter for European values" is a good example. Only shit from Europe has no smell! Shit Oberyn, best shit from best ass!
 :rolleyes:

So what u are saying is that EU and US made Russia look like the bad guys so they can seem like the world police? Thats complete bullshit. Atleast when it comes to Russia. Russia itself deliberately makes itself look like the bad guys. It wants to be the bad guy. So whenever they cause shenanigans they would force the EU and US to counter them. That way Kremlin can tell to their people "See!!!! The West is out to get us! Work harder or we all doomed!" Keeping the people occupied and away from the internal issues. That way avoiding rioting.

 This isnt some propaganda or misunderstanding. Your goverment wants to be bad. Its kinda oblivious when your politicans basically refuse to play ball with any other country and release statements like " we should occupy the Baltics" or someone in russian news stating that "they can turn US soil into radioactive dust". U actually laugh there and say its stupid, but do think about it. What are the smaller ex-USSR countries gonna have to feel if basically their warmongering eastern neibhour thats been sacking them for centuries gets the courage and basically annexes some land at the center of Europe. Leaded by Putin, the guy who really misses USSR.

This isnt about some "European value" thing. What are u talking about? Whenever someone outside of Russia confronts Russia of its problems all you ever get is the statements "no u" and "u are no better". No explanation, no promises, no nothing. You are just like all the others Ivan. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 12:50:30 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 09, 2014, 11:47:32 pm
What do you know about developed countries, you live in Latvia ffs...
Well, it wouldn't be Leshma, if it wasn't spouting complete bullshit about stuff it has absolutely no idea about. :rolleyes:

In other, less obvious news: http://rt.com/politics/gorbachev-ussr-collapse-lawsuit-568/

Since it is RT, i'm sure even ivani4 will be able to believe it. PUH-LEASE tell me again, how Russia is not being a threat to all of it's neighbors and how "big, bad Russia" is just Western propaganda.

Just to make sure this gets through the thicker skulls, here are the relevant bits:
Quote
According to the authors of the letter (and the prosecutors in 1991), Gorbachev is personally to blame for the creation of the State Council of the USSR – the new body that was not described in the Soviet Constitution and yet took the responsibility to decide on the secession of the three Baltic republics. The MPs also noted that such crimes have no statute of limitation and Gorbachev himself did not enjoy any sort of immunity at current moment.

In comments with the popular mass circulation daily Izvestia, one of the sponsors of the initiative, Evgeny Fyodorov, claimed that the thorough investigation into the 1991 events would allow for a “correct historical and political picture” and veritable conclusions that, in the politicians’ view, would give an impetus for the “national liberation movements” in former Soviet republics.
Quote
“People in Kiev are dying and will keep on dying because of the people in the Kremlin who made a decision to break up the country a long time ago,” he told Izvestia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 10, 2014, 12:53:14 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 10, 2014, 12:44:24 pm
"See!!!! The West is out to get us! Work harder or we all doomed!" Keeping the people occupied and away from the internal issues. That way avoiding rioting.
yep true. Every day i build atleast 1 rocket and dig my tunnel for 5 meters. Also in Russia every family have 1 bunker on back ground and 10-year supply of food, and the favorite game of our kids is "duck and cover"  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 12:57:04 pm
Also, for lulz: http://rt.com/politics/brezhnev-stalin-gorbachev-soviet-638/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 10, 2014, 01:02:17 pm
some more anti-russian Putin propaganda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Rkom1RpKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Rkom1RpKA)

Come on. Putin stinks. The tough man behind Gazprom will fail. Delusions of grandeur alway rise high and fall hard. Dont be a  Nashi  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_%28youth_movement%29).  :twisted:

and Putin is really a cool guy:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 01:12:44 pm
"Small countries of Europe..." Russia gave these people the national idea! Now they know a Great Sense of his existence: "we Need to fear and hate Russia. We must support (only morally, of course...) any of the fighters with the invaders!". Few can find these small countries on the map. But everyone knows that such dwarf countries exist. Latvia and Lithuania today are not useless countries! For 23 years! And only they know to do best sprats (this is the second part of a national idea).   :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 01:12:58 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 01:12:44 pm
"Small countries of Europe..." Russia gave these people the national idea! Now they know a Great Sense of his existence: "we Need to fear and hate Russia. We must support (only morally, of course...) any of the fighters with the invaders!". Few can find these small countries on the map. But everyone knows that such dwarf countries exist. Latvia and Lithuania today are not useless countries! For 23 years! And only they know to do best sprats (this is the second part of a national idea).   :wink:
You are literally too stupid to insult.

Quote from: Eugen on April 10, 2014, 01:02:17 pm
and Putin is really a cool guy:

The comments on that video really make me lose faith in humanity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 10, 2014, 01:17:56 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 01:12:58 pm
The comments on that video really make me lose faith in humanity.
Putin for President of the Earth 2019!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 10, 2014, 01:29:13 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 01:12:58 pm
The comments on that video really make me lose faith in humanity.

Have you read the subtitles of the video before being abashed at the perfectly understandable reactions?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 01:35:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 10, 2014, 01:29:13 pm
Have you read the subtitles of the video before being abashed at the perfectly understandable reactions?
Have you read the comments on that video before being abashed at my perfectly understandable reaction? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 10, 2014, 01:37:28 pm
Those who are claiming they support Putin, because he is awesome, because the video and subtitles are showing him in a good light, which is in turn perfectly understandable?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 01:40:17 pm
Because they are fucking morons, that believe a guy laughing off a reporter for making a (stupid) statement makes him "awesome" and "best president, pls come fix my perfectly fine country with your KGB background"? Which is the reason for my reaction?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 10, 2014, 01:40:35 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 10, 2014, 01:29:13 pm
Have you read the subtitles of the video before being abashed at the perfectly understandable reactions?
But how is that possible? In this small but proud country of Europe, all true patriots of read-only "state language"! 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 10, 2014, 01:53:23 pm
If a journalist came to the president of the Palestinian and said "Israel claim they are building walls around you to protect from Syrian jihadist", and he laughed at his face, that would be funny whether you support palestine/israel/none.

Then if you overreact and analyze each and everyone's posts especially the dumb ones, ofc you're abashed and cant put a grin on your face like normal unbiased people. Me I laughed, despite the KGB background of the bad Putin!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 10, 2014, 01:56:45 pm
I love your irony Ivani Mastergoogle-Translator... +1 +1 +1  Small Coutry Europe needs you. Come over to our grocerymarket of nihilistic, elitaire-snobism-intellectual-technohumanitare principels and base values. Join the power of not acting and looking smartly down on all ohters who dont agree that  Esperanto  is  t h e  power.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 01:58:53 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 10, 2014, 01:53:23 pm
If a journalist came to the president of the Palestinian and said "Israel claim they are building walls around you to protect from Syrian jihadist", and he laughed at his face, that would be funny whether you support palestine/israel/none.

Then if you overreact and analyze each and everyone's posts especially the dumb ones, ofc you're abashed and cant put a grin on your face like normal unbiased people. Me I laughed, despite the KGB background of the bad Putin!
Did i say anything about the video? It is funny, yes. 9/10 comments are not about the funny. But then again, focusing on the 1/10, that's kind of your thing, isn't it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 10, 2014, 02:02:50 pm
I honestly thought that by not stating you found the video funny and concentrating on the 9/10 dumb comments, you ignored the meaning of the video (and how clueless some people think Russia is about NATO actions) and focused on only the bad points, which is the thing of the blindfolded anti-Russian people in this thread everytime something good is said on Putin?

Look at the beam in your eyes before saying I'm focusing on 1/10  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 10, 2014, 02:13:50 pm
Quote
GTOberfest
Bravo Putin..lol!!!...thank God someone is out there fighting the neo-con/communist/bolshevist takeover. Wish u were here to run the commies out of the USA, who are undermining everything this once great country was founded on.
Those comments are way funnier than the actual video :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 10, 2014, 02:53:48 pm
A lot of the pro-Putin sentiments pretty much come from disenfranchised neo-chocolate chip cookie retards, like Panos. Take a look at Liveleak comments sometimes, you get the gist very fast of what sort of Strongman Dictator worshipping cocksucker adore him so much, fighting against the evil NWO jewish conspiracy. Alex Jone type sites also rife with it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 10, 2014, 03:53:58 pm
Far right ukrainians says that russians are jewish too....
Hopefully I'm neutral my friend ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 10, 2014, 05:16:24 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 12:50:30 pm
Well, it wouldn't be Leshma, if it wasn't spouting complete bullshit about stuff it has absolutely no idea about.

I'm mostly talking about my country and how it relates to Ukraine. Consider my country currently being a massive corrupted shithole.

But funny thing is, wages in the city I'm living in are just slightly lower than wages in Riga. Also I live in capital city, you ain't talking to a peasant who know everyone he meets one daily basis.

Sorry, but I can't take serious stuff you and your compatriots write here, because you have no idea how it looks like living in developed country, because just like me you aren't living in one.

Edit: Average salary in Greece is 700 euros, in Latvia 550. Think about it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 10, 2014, 05:34:42 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 12:57:04 pm
Also, for lulz: http://rt.com/politics/brezhnev-stalin-gorbachev-soviet-638/

Quote
Experts link Brezhnev’s popularity among the population to financial well-being during his epoch, which was the “peak of Soviet socialism.”

wat

Quote from: Vovka on April 10, 2014, 12:53:14 pm
yep true. Every day i build atleast 1 rocket and dig my tunnel for 5 meters. Also in Russia every family have 1 bunker on back ground and 10-year supply of food, and the favorite game of our kids is "duck and cover"  :P

And everyday I wake up and think "I hate Russia".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 10, 2014, 05:40:40 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 10, 2014, 05:34:42 pm
And everyday I wake up and think "I hate Russia".
And every day I wake up and I care a little less.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on April 10, 2014, 05:57:01 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 01:35:55 pm
Have you read the comments on that video before being abashed at my perfectly understandable reaction? :rolleyes:

Why would you ever read YouTube comments? That's like staring at the sun and wondering why you've gone blind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 06:45:41 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 10, 2014, 05:16:24 pm
I'm mostly talking about my country and how it relates to Ukraine. Consider my country currently being a massive corrupted shithole.

But funny thing is, wages in the city I'm living in are just slightly lower than wages in Riga. Also I live in capital city, you ain't talking to a peasant who know everyone he meets one daily basis.

Sorry, but I can't take serious stuff you and your compatriots write here, because you have no idea how it looks like living in developed country, because just like me you aren't living in one.

Edit: Average salary in Greece is 700 euros, in Latvia 550. Think about it.
I stopped at the part, where you mention average salary, as if that somehow correlates to quality of life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 10, 2014, 11:01:55 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 06:45:41 pm
I stopped at the part, where you mention average salary, as if that somehow correlates to quality of life.

Yes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 10, 2014, 11:06:44 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 10, 2014, 06:45:41 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 10, 2014, 05:16:24 pm
I'm mostly talking about my country and how it relates to Ukraine. Consider my country currently being a massive corrupted shithole.

But funny thing is, wages in the city I'm living in are just slightly lower than wages in Riga. Also I live in capital city, you ain't talking to a peasant who know everyone he meets one daily basis.

Sorry, but I can't take serious stuff you and your compatriots write here, because you have no idea how it looks like living in developed country, because just like me you aren't living in one.

Edit: Average salary in Greece is 700 euros, in Latvia 550. Think about it.

I stopped at the part, where you mention average salary, as if that somehow correlates to quality of life.

So basically you've read his whole post  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 11, 2014, 07:34:48 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 10, 2014, 03:53:58 pm
Far right ukrainians says that russians are jewish too....
Hopefully I'm neutral my friend ;)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 11, 2014, 08:27:33 am
I invest in irish and scottish wool-fabrication now. Next winter we will have no gas in Europe. So woolen pullovers and stockings will be the winners in s(t)ock-market. Be clever invest in pullovers and stockings!!!

We will win the winter-war! Damn it. Small Coutrys are not going to pay insane prices for freedom of Ukraine. Sorry people. But Ukraine could help EU in producing more warm pullovers. I will buy.


 Random News Link - go read!  (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/russia-warns-eu-on-gas-and-berates-nato-over-ukraine-1.1758004)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 11, 2014, 11:34:14 am
Lol the local protesters in Kharkiv stormed the wrong building. "Local" my ass :)

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/protesters-storm-kharkiv-theater-thinking-it-was-city-hall/497709.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/protesters-storm-kharkiv-theater-thinking-it-was-city-hall/497709.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 11, 2014, 11:51:18 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 11, 2014, 11:34:14 am
Lol the local protesters in Kharkiv stormed the wrong building. "Local" my ass :)
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/protesters-storm-kharkiv-theater-thinking-it-was-city-hall/497709.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/protesters-storm-kharkiv-theater-thinking-it-was-city-hall/497709.html)
've heard that a month ago keep loling smart guy here another one:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on April 11, 2014, 12:09:36 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 11, 2014, 11:51:18 am
've heard that a month ago keep loling smart guy here another one:

urban legend.  the written story about it is way older then any radio recording.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 12:33:51 pm
So what's the big deal with this gas?.. The heat-bill will be higher in winter, is that it? Or am I missing something?..
One can heat water with electricity, right? Gas-shmas, we will find some under the sea, no biggie.
 
Btw, is it true, that Germans are closing their nuclear power plants? Because of happened to Japanese few years ago?.. If so, it's really stupid, imo there should be as many nuclear power plants as possible - it's cheap, and no need to buy nothing from anyone. Just need to build it further away from populated areas. OR! May be it's time to start building them under the sea! Why the fuck not?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 11, 2014, 12:36:38 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 12:33:51 pm
So what's the big deal with this gas?.. The heat-bill will be higher in winter, is that it? Or am I missing something?..
One can heat water with electricity, right? Gas-shmas, we will find some under the sea, no biggie.
 
Btw, is it true, that Germans are closing their nuclear power plants? Because of happened to Japanese few years ago?.. If so, it's really stupid, imo there should be as many nuclear power plants as possible - it's cheap, and no need to buy nothing from anyone. Just need to build it further away from populated areas. OR! May be it's time to start building them under the sea! Why the fuck not?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHAHA! :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 12:40:46 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 11, 2014, 12:36:38 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHAHA! :lol:

?.. It's cheaper per KW, compared to gas or coal, don't see what's funny?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 11, 2014, 12:44:00 pm
...cuz it's not.

Wonder why everyone is conveniently ignoring the waste?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 01:16:13 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 11, 2014, 12:44:00 pm
...cuz it's not.

Wonder why everyone is conveniently ignoring the waste?

cuz at least bother to google before shitposting, mkey?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 11, 2014, 01:18:20 pm
Quote from: Falka on April 10, 2014, 11:06:44 pm
I stopped at the part, where you mention average salary, as if that somehow correlates to quality of life.


So basically you've read his whole post  :P
No?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 11, 2014, 01:23:29 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 12:33:51 pm
OR! May be it's time to start building them under the sea! Why the fuck not?

Cuz u don't wanna fuck with Poseidon and Kraken and the people of Atlantis. If u do u will suffer a watery grave.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 11, 2014, 01:35:47 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 11, 2014, 12:44:00 pm
...cuz it's not.
Wonder why everyone is conveniently ignoring the waste?
with every breath you increase the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere! and using the electricity you create a demand for nuclear power plants, go live in the woods, but rather kill all of humanity - leave the planet for nature  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 11, 2014, 01:51:11 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 12:33:51 pm
Btw, is it true, that Germans are closing their nuclear power plants? Because of happened to Japanese few years ago?.. If so, it's really stupid, imo there should be as many nuclear power plants as possible - it's cheap, and no need to buy nothing from anyone. Just need to build it further away from populated areas. OR! May be it's time to start building them under the sea! Why the fuck not?
Thx to Greentardspeace & other hippies.

It's definitely cheaper than wind & solar ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 01:54:14 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 11, 2014, 01:23:29 pm
Cuz u don't wanna fuck with Poseidon and Kraken and the people of Atlantis. If u do u will suffer a watery grave.

We can give the sea-peoples a discount on electricity, or possibly create some very comfortable reservations, so we can both co-exist and prosper in peace! We let Japanese deal with the Kraken, they have been preparing themselves for this battle for many decades. Poseidon i am not so sure about... Since Poseidon is not in the Bible, we can presume it's just one of Satan's many faces - we will have to bless and sanctify the water, and with almighty Lord Jesus Christ on our side, we will prevail and defeat Posatan. Tarantino's "From Dusk till Dawn" style.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 11, 2014, 02:13:48 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 11, 2014, 04:49:13 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 01:16:13 pm
cuz at least bother to google before shitposting, mkey?
The King of Spam calling me a shitposter :lol:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 11, 2014, 05:02:57 pm
Maybe we should build nuclear plants only in Ukraine since noone cares about that country anymore, even in that thread  :cry:  stop off-topic!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 11, 2014, 05:06:56 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 11, 2014, 05:02:57 pm
Maybe we should build nuclear plants only in Ukraine since noone cares about that country anymore, even in that thread  :cry:  stop off-topic!  :P

Well guess where Chernobyl is  :mrgreen:

Wanna make STALKER universe out of it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 11, 2014, 05:11:55 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 11, 2014, 04:49:13 pm
The King of Spam calling me a shitposter :lol:
(click to show/hide)

Yeah, well, it's all about quality and most importantly - effort. Even taking a shit can be an exceptional act:

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Molly on April 11, 2014, 04:49:13 pm
Is the production cheap? Yes. Is that all that matters? Hell no.

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We are talking about a possibility of expensive gas/heating. And I don't care about some future unborn generations, of whoever the fuck it will be, ( probably someone i don't like at all - think medieval religious EU societies having a tour-de-force through history of modern culture of their "future generations" - they would cry themselves to death ). Nuclear waste? Off in the sea with that shit, let Posaidon and Kraken deal with it :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 11, 2014, 05:27:12 pm
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/foreign-ministry-warns-against-us-hunt-for-russian-citizens/497922.html

Quote
The number of Russians who view the right to "go to another country and come back" as a fundamental human right was 20 percent in January, a survey by the independent Levada pollster showed.

Not even surprised anymore.


By the way the point of nuclear energy today is that it's largely free of greenhouse gas emissions, predictable, with a reasonable environmental impact (the only problem is cooling really) and very space-efficient, on top of being cheap to run bar the other fossil sources (like coal, gaz and oil). More importantly it will be an integral part of our energy in the future, whether you like it or not. Not in it's current antiquated form tough. The problem with the current situation is that ecologist movements dogmatically refuse the construction of new power plants, which forces us to keep the old ones running, then argue that we should close the old ones because they are aging. It's the most cynical political strategy ever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 11, 2014, 08:36:37 pm
Nothing better than mercenaries to shoot into the crowd.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1n2usa_rt-des-mercenaires-de-greystone-seraient-deployes-en-ukraine-s-t_news?start=119
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 11, 2014, 09:20:47 pm
Wait, but we have chocolate chip cookie trained by NATO, right?
Why would we need mercenaries?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 11, 2014, 10:15:20 pm
To erase all possible evidences, fortunately we have some watchful people out there  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 12, 2014, 10:35:44 am
About nukes & about Ukraine:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 12, 2014, 01:19:03 pm
Peaceful pro-russian protesters capture police station in city near Donetsk.
And no usa mercenaries started shooting yet, wonder why.

What I don't like is that our special forces didn't start shooting either, it seemed to be best moment for that, now it's too late in my opinion. But probably I don't understand something, I hope they know better what to do.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on April 12, 2014, 05:11:03 pm
Of course they didn't shoot. If they did the interim government would be accused of dealing with demonstrators the same way that the yanukovich government did. They would have lost their legitimacy. Restraint is what Ukraine needs more than anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 12, 2014, 05:23:57 pm
True, that's why it is late to shoot now, you can't shoot at your people and expect anything good to come from it, but watch the video, do they look like protesters, assaulting police station with firearms to capture more firearms?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 12, 2014, 07:57:10 pm

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People's Republic of Donetsk.

Divide and conquer. Seems like it's working amazingly well.

Quote from: serr on April 12, 2014, 01:19:03 pm
Peaceful pro-russian protesters capture police station in city near Donetsk.

Quote from: serr on April 12, 2014, 05:23:57 pm
..but watch the video, do they look like protesters, assaulting police station with firearms to capture more firearms?

lolnope

Armed Men Seize Police Station in Eastern Ukraine City (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/world/europe/ukraine.html?ref=world)

Pro-Russian separatists set up checkpoints around east Ukraine city (http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/04/12/idINL6N0N40DT20140412)


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 12, 2014, 08:31:51 pm
Quote
They should make a Hangover spinoff based on this, where a bunch of ex-Ukrainians wake up one day surrounded by vodka bottles and puke stains and find out they've created a country.

More like People's Republic of Vodka.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 12, 2014, 08:38:50 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 12, 2014, 08:31:51 pm
More like People's Republic of Vodka.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 12, 2014, 08:56:08 pm
Quote from: Swaggart on April 12, 2014, 05:11:03 pm
Of course they didn't shoot. If they did the interim government would be accused of dealing with demonstrators the same way that the yanukovich government did. They would have lost their legitimacy. Restraint is what Ukraine needs more than anything.


They are dealing with demonstrators the same way the Yanukovich government did. The first 3 months phase.

See you in around 3 months.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 12, 2014, 08:57:27 pm
When protesters are pro-EU it's ok, when protesters are pro-Russia it is DEVIL.
Am I right ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 12, 2014, 11:31:04 pm
Cause Russia is more Evil and rotten than EU.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 01:23:05 am
Maybe, but not more than USA  :wink:

Anyway, US Corp. wants some fight with Russia. This is their last chance to win a war against Russia, China or Iran. Because, before 2020 the whole dollar system will collapse and then the imperial global army will be no more.

Will USA loose their hegemony without a shot or will they initiate a big propaganda against the new "evil" axis ?


Quote from: serr on April 11, 2014, 09:20:47 pm
Wait, but we have chocolate chip cookie trained by NATO, right?
Why would we need mercenaries?
Remember Bandera, he was not very loyal...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 13, 2014, 09:05:59 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 12, 2014, 08:57:27 pm
When protesters are pro-EU it's ok, when protesters are pro-Russia it is DEVIL.
Am I right ?

Somehow I FEEL a difference between maidan protests and "roving armed bands capturing what ever the fuck they want all armed to the teeth and shooting at police stations"...

Frankly - one of two armies WILL have to be present in eastern Ukraine. FOR NOW - its up to Ukraine leaders to decide which army, but seeing as how this "destabilization" tactics proceed - I just don't see it happening for long and then putler will come rushing in "saving" everyone the effort to decide for themselves actually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 13, 2014, 09:19:12 am
Antiterrorist operation started.
There is firefight now in Sloviansk, the city on the video I posted yesterday.

A bit late I think, but still necessary, otherwise we would get full-scale civil war between right sector, other pro-ukrainian activists and pro-russian protesters, which is still possible. I understand that probably we will see russian APCs on our streets after this, but still the only "not terrible" solution for this situation is if ukrainian police will prevent fights between right sector and pro-ru protesters and neutralize armed terrorists by themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 09:27:21 am
Would you still use the term "terrorist" when a part of the army will join protesters ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 13, 2014, 09:31:58 am
In that case it will be enemy, opposite side in civil war, hope it won't happen. I'd say it is very unlikely, but who knows..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 09:51:27 am
How long an ukrainian soldier can see his own people killed by foreign mercenaries ?
But westerners are not alone to play this game. Fighters from Serbia are already there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 13, 2014, 11:05:00 am
I wonder what will happen if Russia actually decides to send troops into the Eastern Ukraine?

I mean, I can imagine several scenarios as a reaction but I am pretty much lost which of those is the most likely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 13, 2014, 11:09:58 am
Tovi, you don't agree with term "terrorists"?
Propose your terms then:
Assault of another police station in Donetsk region.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 11:13:17 am
Terrorists aim civilians (=unarmed people). Simple.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 13, 2014, 11:17:17 am
Police officers with raised hands didn't seem armed to me but what do I know, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 11:39:56 am
Shooting in the sky is not terrorism too...
But ok, it's not very nice  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 13, 2014, 12:07:01 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 11:39:56 am
Shooting in the sky is not terrorism too...
But ok, it's not very nice  :rolleyes:
How would you name chechens who tried to create "Chechnya"?

IMO - guys running around with guns in face masks and attacking government installations ARE terrorists. Unless putler commanded the definition rewritten in all russian newspapers, history books and dictionaries?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 12:23:17 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 11:39:56 am
Shooting in the sky is not terrorism too...
But ok, it's not very nice  :rolleyes:

So how do you define terrorism then? You need to be Arab to be called a terrorist or what?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 13, 2014, 12:32:27 pm
Why do you even bother arguing with that retard? Do you really care what he thinks the proper term is?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 12:40:28 pm
They are insurgents. Sorry if I use vocabulary and not propaganda shit. Even for Arabs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 12:41:49 pm
No I do not, but I tought the answer might be interesting 

back on topic, media in my coutry reports of shootings and 6 people dead in "anti-terrorist actions" starrted by Ukraininan goverment in the city of Slavjansk. Anybody got more info on that?

edit: see  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 13, 2014, 12:53:45 pm
Last official information - 1 dead, 9 injured.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 13, 2014, 01:16:38 pm
I demand links to smartphone videos on youtube! 720p please!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 01:35:11 pm
some Stalker lookig shit right here

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 13, 2014, 02:30:36 pm
Common definition of terrorism : refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., military personnel in peacetime or civilians).


I would say, armed people assaulting a police station to take its control, only aiming at those who try to oppose them openly, is an act of rebellion, not terrorism.

Terrorism is most of the time a propaganda tool, a strong word, used to undermine the ideological position of the opposed party.


If they had walked in killing everyone, the unarmed policemen and the unarmed civilians, had bombed the police station, and walked out to disperse in the streets: that, would be terrorism. Stop using that word if you're truely objective.



Quote from: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 01:35:11 pm
some Stalker lookig shit right here



This looks familiar. Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 13, 2014, 02:38:55 pm
I agree that these guys are not terrorists. However that doesn't make them choirboys, considering they are being paid by the Kremlin to be there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 13, 2014, 02:45:03 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 13, 2014, 02:38:55 pm
I agree that these guys are not terrorists. However that doesn't make them choirboys, considering they are being paid by the Kremlin to be there.
inb4 Butan and Tovi "strongly disagree"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 13, 2014, 03:00:49 pm
I'm ok with that possibility  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: SugarHoe on April 13, 2014, 03:45:36 pm
USA USA USA  :!: :!:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 13, 2014, 04:01:30 pm
While it's easy for us foreigners to discuss situation in Ukraine, I wouldn't want to be in serr's skin atm. If civil war starts, he and his compatriots will be in deep shit. Dunno how old are you serr, but if you're old enough be smart and ask for asylum in some decent country if shit hits the fan. Don't be stupid and try to fix what cannot be fixed for your lifetime.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 13, 2014, 04:14:20 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 13, 2014, 04:01:30 pm
While it's easy for us foreigners to discuss situation in Ukraine, I wouldn't want to be in serr's skin atm. If civil war starts, he and his compatriots will be in deep shit. Dunno how old are you serr, but if you're old enough be smart and ask for asylum in some decent country if shit hits the fan. Don't be stupid and try to fix what cannot be fixed for your lifetime.

Even France, the famous country of asylum and human rights, people that flee their countries are not welcome, by both native and administration.

It would be infinitely preferable to die trying what you can fix in your lifetime, on your native soil, than fleeing somewhere and bet for that 1% scenario where you will have a decent new life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 13, 2014, 04:44:41 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 13, 2014, 04:14:20 pm
Even France, the famous country of asylum and human rights, people that flee their countries are not welcome, by both native and administration.

It would be infinitely preferable to die trying what you can fix in your lifetime, on your native soil, than fleeing somewhere and bet for that 1% scenario where you will have a decent new life.


For knowing people working at at the Belgian asylum administration, if shit really hits the fan at home and you can prove it, you get asylum rather easily. All the fuss about illegal immigration is because most people can't show that they are in immediate danger if they stay.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 13, 2014, 05:23:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 13, 2014, 04:14:20 pm
It would be infinitely preferable to die trying what you can fix in your lifetime, on your native soil, than fleeing somewhere and bet for that 1% scenario where you will have a decent new life.
Spoken like someone who has never been faced with any such decision. Real life is not cRPG and doesn't have respawns. There are no "heroic deaths", the universe does not give a shit if you died "trying to fix *insert noble cause*." Living is always preferable to death. And you would think so too, if you were actually faced with a "die for an abstract cause or live a possibly-not-as-good-a-life-as-before" choice. Dying on "native soil" (doesn't really mean anything) means nothing at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 13, 2014, 05:31:47 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 13, 2014, 04:14:20 pm
Even France, the famous country of asylum and human rights, people that flee their countries are not welcome, by both native and administration.

It would be infinitely preferable to die trying what you can fix in your lifetime, on your native soil, than fleeing somewhere and bet for that 1% scenario where you will have a decent new life.

As someone who is seriously considering to migrate somewhere else (has nothing to do with asylum seeking tho), must tell you that I haven't considered France at all. Choice will be made depending on the job I manage to get in a foreign country. Countries where I could move, live and work are Scandinavian countries because of their lax legal immigration laws, Canada, USA, Australia. Even Russia.

Most EU countries are hostile to any kind of immigrants, because they had to accept many people coming from former colonies as their citizens. UK has to be the worst by far on that list, followed closely by France, Netherlands, Denmark. It's excruciatingly hard to move there to live and work, even legally, if you come from non EU countries.

Also, chance that someone coming from country at war will live better in some other country is not 1%. It is certain or 100%. Do some research about life in today Ukraine and you'll realize that it has to be one of the hardest countries to live in a decent manner. Now imagine what will happen if war starts and how worse can become. It can always be worse, that is something I learned living in my country. There is no bottom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 13, 2014, 06:04:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 13, 2014, 05:23:45 pm
Spoken like someone who has never been faced with any such decision. Real life is not cRPG and doesn't have respawns. There are no "heroic deaths", the universe does not give a shit if you died "trying to fix *insert noble cause*." Living is always preferable to death. And you would think so too, if you were actually faced with a "die for an abstract cause or live a possibly-not-as-good-a-life-as-before" choice. Dying on "native soil" (doesn't really mean anything) means nothing at all.

So in one thread you justify knife disarm to the risk of losing your life, and here you argue on the fact that whenever your country is going to shit the only option is to run thousands of kilometer away.

Get your shit straight. Be a tough forum warrior or a pragmatic wise-ass but not both whenever it fits your rhetoric stance.



On-topic: fortunately not everyone follow that kind of logic, else we would have unstable countries inhabited only by the radicals behind the rebellions, and seen as stable countries packed full of immigrants trying to start from scratch with crumbs of others.

Not everyone's a hero, true, but not everyone is a deserter ever. I believe the fact you dismiss the proportion of people in the middle who are ready to try to defend what they have, however they can, make me believe YOU have never been a witness of such a real life situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 13, 2014, 06:42:12 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 13, 2014, 06:04:21 pm
So in one thread you justify knife disarm to the risk of losing your life, and here you argue on the fact that whenever your country is going to shit the only option is to run thousands of kilometer away.

Get your shit straight. Be a tough forum warrior or a pragmatic wise-ass but not both whenever it fits your rhetoric stance.
Nice strawmanning. Protip: If you want to use strawman effectively, you have to make it just a biiiiiiiit more accurate.

Here's a freebie, though: there's a big difference between doing something dangerous where there's a chance of death (you could die while walking to the store too, though..) and saying "it's better to die than live." A massive difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 07:16:07 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 13, 2014, 06:04:21 pm

Not everyone's a hero, true, but not everyone is a deserter ever. I believe the fact you dismiss the proportion of people in the middle who are ready to try to defend what they have, however they can, make me believe YOU have never been a witness of such a real life situation.


Nah man, "regular" people flee especially if they have families, seen it in my coutry 20 years ago so you may call me a witness of the situation. The percentage the stays and fights or joins the army is exremely small, who is left on the battlefield are men, regular joes with believes like yours, all kinds of psyhos and sociopaths and professinal soliders, needles to say regular joes get slaughtered horribly or catch a severe case of PTSD and ruin their life for good. Hero stories are few and far between and mostly folk tale to keep the morale up, don't get fooled. I would certanly flee, you too probably.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 13, 2014, 07:28:54 pm
All hail great führer Vladimir Poontang. Wannabe Stalin. Dat dere USSR 2.0

Inb4 Erdogan joins USSR 2.0 Alliance
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 09:02:50 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 13, 2014, 07:28:54 pm
All hail great führer Vladimir Poontang. Wannabe Stalin. Dat dere USSR 2.0

Inb4 Erdogan joins USSR 2.0 Alliance

Stalin repelled nazees too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 13, 2014, 09:49:27 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 13, 2014, 02:30:36 pm


This looks familiar. Hmmmm.

No it doesn't, this is planned and executed by Russia. Look at the fresh new white sandbags mixed with tires for example..

What is hard to believe is that people STILL buy Russian propaganda after Crimea.. OR don't already understand their methods. Even the patriot Russians here understand that these are paid by Putin and not local resistance fighters. They just think it's really cool how he fights for Russia and tries to trick the world. But they don't BUY the propaganda.. This is violent theatre looking for grounds to attack Ukraine with their recently trained and ready to attack armies across the border.

Like my german friend always says.. We didn't attack Poland, they attacked us! :D

But this is not as funny.


-edit: new video showing the "protesters" attacking a gvnmt building:   
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 13, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
The obsession people have with getting everything on video is amazing to me. Like there are people recording that crap a couple meters from people shooting. So disconnected from reality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 10:16:35 pm
It can never be compared to Maidan since there it was people of Ukraine protesting against Ukrainian goverment in Ukraine, not Ukrainian born Russian separatists taking arms and capturing police stations wanting to separate the whole region from Ukraine. Two completely different things but they will be brought up and compared time and time again especially by the Russian side.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 13, 2014, 10:22:52 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 13, 2014, 07:28:54 pm
Inb4 Erdogan joins USSR 2.0 Alliance

Erdogan is sponsored by US. That is why we wont see Maidan in Turkey, only weak attempts of citizens to overthrow him. He's back in the saddle, for many years to come. Turkish youth must be thrilled.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 13, 2014, 10:29:17 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 10:16:35 pm
It can never be compared to Maidan since there it was people of Ukraine protesting against Ukrainian goverment in Ukraine, not Ukrainian born Russian separatists taking arms and capturing police stations wanting to separate the whole region from Ukraine. Two completely different things but they will be brought up and compared time and time again especially by the Russian side.

These are not Ukrainian borne Russian separatists. These are professional Russian soldiers.

Basically, it's a full on invasion, and it has just begun.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 10:31:17 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 13, 2014, 10:29:17 pm
These are not Ukrainian borne Russian separatists. These are professional Russian soldiers.

Yeah but Russia will never admit that so they are still only "separatists" and "protesters" so I refferd to them as such, while it's quite clear whats going on in the video you posted
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 13, 2014, 10:35:41 pm
I think it's fair to call them what they are. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 13, 2014, 11:25:37 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 13, 2014, 10:35:41 pm
I think it's fair to call them what they are. :)
If you got balls. putler russia does not have balls. If not for propaganda machine saying it HAS balls  - they would loose even the condom ballons it has strapped there for show.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 14, 2014, 10:52:22 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 13, 2014, 10:29:17 pm
These are not Ukrainian borne Russian separatists. These are professional Russian soldiers.

Basically, it's a full on invasion, and it has just begun.

Although this theory is very much possible, any evidence for that? Or you have a gut feeling? Or you believe US Secretary of State, because it is wideknown that he cannot tell a lie? This is my problem with this topic: people are stating their opinions on all sorts of things and present it as facts.

This is why Russians on this topic feel like you guys are taking side.

The turmoil is, and it is highly likely, supported by Russia. But claiming that Russian professional soldiers are on the ground in Ukraine... I would REALLY like to see evidence for this shit.

I know when shit hit the fan here in Balkans, no one needed to bring any soldiers from across the border to start shit. War in Croatia was started by Serbs already living there, Bosnia also, this almost happened in Monteblack in spanish. There was no need to bring soldiers from abroad. It is possible that the situation is similar in Easter Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 14, 2014, 10:57:00 am
Quote from: Butan on April 13, 2014, 04:14:20 pm
Even France, the famous country of asylum and human rights, people that flee their countries are not welcome, by both native and administration.

It would be infinitely preferable to die trying what you can fix in your lifetime, on your native soil, than fleeing somewhere and bet for that 1% scenario where you will have a decent new life.
1) Pocket money for refugees in some countries(like Finland) are bigger than average salary in Ukraine.  +A lot of other help(social & material)

2)This is Niko
(click to show/hide)
He fought for his country. He had nothing except old enemies.

This is Roman
(click to show/hide)
He emigrated & now he has girls, cars & a mansion!

This is Niko after he emigrated!
(click to show/hide)

3)This is some unrelated video. Worth to watch it till the end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 14, 2014, 11:09:33 am
Quote from: Corwin on April 14, 2014, 10:52:22 am
Although this theory is very much possible, any evidence for that? Or you have a gut feeling? Or you believe US Secretary of State, because it is wideknown that he cannot tell a lie? This is my problem with this topic: people are stating their opinions on all sorts of things and present it as facts.

This is why Russians on this topic feel like you guys are taking side.

The turmoil is, and it is highly likely, supported by Russia. But claiming that Russian professional soldiers are on the ground in Ukraine... I would REALLY like to see evidence for this shit.

I know when shit hit the fan here in Balkans, no one needed to bring any soldiers from across the border to start shit. War in Croatia was started by Serbs already living there, Bosnia also, this almost happened in Monteblack in spanish. There was no need to bring soldiers from abroad. It is possible that the situation is similar in Easter Ukraine.


I don't think they are all Russian soliders brought from Russia to take over Ukraine that would be dumb and not subtle, but surely there are more than a couple Russian military officers in Ukraine coordinating this kind of "protests" and arming local separatists. I'm not living in Ukraine nor have an extensive knowledge of the problems in the country but from all I gathered this seems like the most probable scenario.

You are right no one needed soliders when it started in ex Yugoslavia but a few officers here and there to organise things, provide a bit of equipement and set the "revolution" up does wonders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 14, 2014, 11:17:57 am
True. But the problem I had with Thomek's post was that he presented his opinion as a fact, without absolutely no knowledge or new information about the situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 14, 2014, 12:15:57 pm
I worked all night, sewed new white bags, Putin said that they needed in Europe, also asked children from nearby workshop where they make weapons (ak-47),make a gift to Thomek:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 14, 2014, 12:53:12 pm
Quote from: Corwin on April 14, 2014, 11:17:57 am
True. But the problem I had with Thomek's post was that he presented his opinion as a fact, without absolutely no knowledge or new information about the situation.

I just looked at the video of the storming of the building. It clearly shows real soldiers clearing the area, before the "protesters" are shuffled in.

It's allowed to use your brain when making observations. The people in the video looks like, and acts like Russian soldiers. (Uniforms, AK100 rifles, they way they storm the building. )

Like this image looks like, and acts like Mickey Mouse.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Do you question that this is Mickey Mouse? Or do you need CNN or BBC to tell you first?

Russia has shown the will to send in unmarked Russian troops like they just did in Crimea. They are doing the same now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 14, 2014, 12:59:22 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 14, 2014, 12:53:12 pm
The people in the video looks like, and acts like Russian soldiers.
let me arm ur new pistol for u, pls  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 14, 2014, 02:33:57 pm
Seriously though, no Russian has ever had anything meaningful to say in this topic. It's the retard-country, only a few of them can even speak English and even fewer can think.

The only Russians with anything to even say are the Vovkas with "olol omg lul i sew pistul much clothe pistool xDDD" and Ivanis google-translated propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 14, 2014, 02:46:38 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 14, 2014, 02:33:57 pm
Seriously though, no Russian has ever had anything meaningful to say in this topic. It's the retard-country, only a few of them can even speak English and even fewer can think.

The only Russians with anything to even say are the Vovkas with "olol omg lul i sew pistul much clothe pistool xDDD" and Ivanis google-translated propaganda.
Exactly.
At first I was angry. Then I thought its ironic. Then I thought its moronic. Now - I'm beyond caring, what they say, because they can't apply their own standards to themselves and recognize the bullshit their government with putler at the first row is doing...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on April 14, 2014, 03:20:14 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 14, 2014, 02:33:57 pm
Seriously though, no Russian has ever had anything meaningful to say in this topic. It's the retard-country, only a few of them can even speak English and even fewer can think.

The only Russians with anything to even say are the Vovkas with "olol omg lul i sew pistul much clothe pistool xDDD" and Ivanis google-translated propaganda.
u mate are far better. writing something in the topic  in the Off-top selection of the mod to the game that is diying.
the funny thing is brainwashed people in this topic is talking about shitty russian propaganda lol...  propaganda technologies in russia are pretty annoiyng and thats why I belive that most of people are not listening to the TV. but actions of my country gives enough reasons to be hated by some of russians.

Quote
These are not Ukrainian borne Russian separatists. These are professional Russian soldiers.
even in our news was something like "mostly separatists are people who live in this regions but there was some soldiers without markers(without proofs and photos)".

I see only one difference between all this and Maydan. Maydan is a masterpiece of country usurpation but all this shit on the east is try to cut some land out of ukraine without political cover and thats why it looks much more agressive.

I like the ammount of political experts over here but you guys should also understand that you live not in russia and not even in ukraine. you wont help anyone by your worriyng.
you already helped alot with your maydan support. I wish you to be citizen of my country now.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 14, 2014, 03:21:07 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 14, 2014, 12:53:12 pm
I just looked at the video of the storming of the building. It clearly shows real soldiers clearing the area, before the "protesters" are shuffled in.

It's allowed to use your brain when making observations. The people in the video looks like, and acts like Russian soldiers. (Uniforms, AK100 rifles, they way they storm the building. )

Like this image looks like, and acts like Mickey Mouse.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Do you question that this is Mickey Mouse? Or do you need CNN or BBC to tell you first?

Russia has shown the will to send in unmarked Russian troops like they just did in Crimea. They are doing the same now.

Dude, is it impossible they are Ukrainians, former Berkut? You just see what you expect/want to see.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 14, 2014, 03:36:56 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on April 14, 2014, 03:20:14 pm
you wont help anyone by your worriyng

you already helped

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 14, 2014, 03:53:53 pm
Dark blade comments are like Ivanich sometimes, hard to decrypt!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 14, 2014, 04:33:07 pm
When USSR 2.0 are busy with Yurop, China will strike and invade Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 14, 2014, 04:43:51 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 14, 2014, 04:33:07 pm
When USSR 2.0 are busy with Yurop, China will strike and invade Russia

Thats when the elders of zion will strike.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 14, 2014, 05:00:08 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 14, 2014, 04:33:07 pm
China will strike and invade Russia

lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 14, 2014, 05:01:31 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 14, 2014, 02:33:57 pm
The only Russians with anything to even say are the Vovkas with "olol omg lul i sew pistul much clothe pistool xDDD" and Ivanis google-translated propaganda.

Well what did you expect? There really is no point of arguing with average russians about subjects like these. I mean even their high officials explain their countries actions with things like "no u","USA does bad things too" and "cuz chocolate chip cookies", so what did you expect the average population to say?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 14, 2014, 05:07:54 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 14, 2014, 02:33:57 pm
"olol omg lul i sew pistul much clothe pistool xDDD"

I fucking died

my sides are in orbit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Joseph Porta on April 14, 2014, 05:12:48 pm
Quote from: Lars on December 05, 2013, 01:23:59 pm
I doubt they are using special forces for public order, but i may be wrong, theoretically special forces are the elite, "crème de la crème" units of an army, like: Navy seals, Delta force, Sas, Spetsnaz, Green berets, Incursori etc... i think these units are used for freeing hostages, capture high profile members of criminal organizations, anti terrorism, war scenarios and stuff like that.

But its russia -quantity over quality. So they will have platoons of 250 "special forces" and dub the mission a success when the loss-rate under 75%, then propoganda the shit out of it and tell the public; "because of superior soviet tactics our comrades have won this battle."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 14, 2014, 06:07:35 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 14, 2014, 04:33:07 pm
When USSR 2.0 are busy with Yurop, China will strike and invade Russia

China isn't exactly known for invading other countries. At least not countries where live people of different race.

USSR 2.0 isn't invading Yurop, they want to be friendly with Yurop and it is mostly mutual (Germans want to be friendly too). Problem is that USA feels threatened by both parties and won't stand watching them growing stronger every day. Therefore it's best to divide and conquer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on April 14, 2014, 06:29:00 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 14, 2014, 06:07:35 pm
USSR 2.0 isn't invading Yurop

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 14, 2014, 07:00:58 pm
Yurop as European Union.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 14, 2014, 07:20:08 pm
3 months ago, on Maidan:

Crowd A : "US/EU/extremists have hands in maidan! Becareful Ukraine!"

Crowd B : "Nop, only good people who wants freedom and joy for everyone! Let them express themselves in peaceful way. Stop being conspiracy theorist and let democratic protesters speak!"



Nowadays:

Crowd A : "New Kiev is acting like old Kiev with the new post-maidan crisis!"

Crowd B : "Its not the same, they are all terrorists supported by Putin and unmarked RUS soldiers who rape/pillage everything on their path... All in jail or killed, for the glory of Ukrainian people!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 14, 2014, 07:29:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 14, 2014, 02:33:57 pm
Seriously though, no Russian has ever had anything meaningful to say in this topic. It's the retard-country, only a few of them can even speak English and even fewer can think.

The only Russians with anything to even say are the Vovkas with "olol omg lul i sew pistul much clothe pistool xDDD" and Ivanis google-translated propaganda.
Implying anyone has said anything meaningful in this thread?..
 Well what do you expect us to say?
What I hear/watch in TV is like completely different to what you hear in your info sources, while neither of those can be 100% true.
I choose to not judge about the things I'm not sure about, so really I don't have anything to say about this matter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 14, 2014, 07:33:24 pm
Quote from: Macropus on April 14, 2014, 07:29:18 pm
Implying anyone has said anything meaningful in this thread?..
 Well what do you expect us to say?
What I hear/watch in TV is like completely different to what you hear in your info sources, while neither of those can be 100% true.
I choose to not judge about the things I'm not sure about, so really I don't have anything to say about this matter.
Well, what do you hear and see in the TV? That would be pretty interesting to hear from a coherent source.

And Butan, what are you on? Are you implying foreign soldiers taking over police stations among other things is the same as the people protesting in the streets..?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 14, 2014, 07:43:58 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 14, 2014, 07:33:24 pm
Well, what do you hear and see in the TV? That would be pretty interesting to hear from a coherent source.
"1) Russia didn't send military forces to Crimea, those armoured guys were Crimean militia"
2) Crimea is rightfully Russian territory since Ukraine fucked up with its government and Crimea have chosen to join us, especially since most of crimeans are russians.
3) Putin is a boss who did nothing but recieved a good portion of land, most Russians welcome and praise the joining of Crimea because it's like returned back to us"

Something like that. I don't watch TV that much though, so it might be a bit outdated.


UPD:
Quote
most Russians welcome and praise the joining of Crimea
Hah, this sounded quite overestimating. People here don't seem to care about this whole matter too much, hence why the post rate from Russians in this thread is low as well.  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 14, 2014, 08:18:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 14, 2014, 07:20:08 pm
3 months ago, on Maidan:

Crowd A : "US/EU/extremists have hands in maidan! Becareful Ukraine!"

Crowd B : "Nop, only good people who wants freedom and joy for everyone! Let them express themselves in peaceful way. Stop being conspiracy theorist and let democratic protesters speak!"



Nowadays:

Crowd A : "New Kiev is acting like old Kiev with the new post-maidan crisis!"

Crowd B : "Its not the same, they are all terrorists supported by Putin and unmarked RUS soldiers who rape/pillage everything on their path... All in jail or killed, for the glory of Ukrainian people!"
Because hey... french hipster knows best! CBA to even take the bait  :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 14, 2014, 10:41:50 pm
Quote from: Macropus on April 14, 2014, 07:43:58 pm
"1) Russia didn't send military forces to Crimea, those armoured guys were Crimean militia"
2) Crimea is rightfully Russian territory since Ukraine fucked up with its government and Crimea have chosen to join us, especially since most of crimeans are russians.
3) Putin is a boss who did nothing but recieved a good portion of land, most Russians welcome and praise the joining of Crimea because it's like returned back to us"

Inb4 Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia and other countries is returned back to you. )))))))) XNXNXNXN VIVA USSR 2.0 AND POOTIN

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 14, 2014, 10:44:03 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 14, 2014, 07:20:08 pm
3 months ago, on Maidan:

Crowd A : "US/EU/extremists have hands in maidan! Becareful Ukraine!"

Crowd B : "Nop, only good people who wants freedom and joy for everyone! Let them express themselves in peaceful way. Stop being conspiracy theorist and let democratic protesters speak!"



Nowadays:

Crowd A : "New Kiev is acting like old Kiev with the new post-maidan crisis!"

Crowd B : "Its not the same, they are all terrorists supported by Putin and unmarked RUS soldiers who rape/pillage everything on their path... All in jail or killed, for the glory of Ukrainian people!"

Explain please how Maidan and what's happening in eastern Ukraine is even relatable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on April 14, 2014, 10:52:44 pm
both situations are started from the people who disagree with government. or you do think that all this shit on the east was just started at last days\weeks?
those situations are the same fundamentally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 14, 2014, 11:51:06 pm
Which decisions of new government were pro-russian protesters disagreed with? They simply didn't have time to do that many mistakes. And these protesters from the very beginning demanded separating from Ukraine, following Crimea example. Either directly join Russia or form federation first and join Russia later.

As for maidan - yes, obviously it was used by opposition to get power and probably by USA to hurt Russia, but people had all reasons to protest, to demand resignation of government and Yanukovich. And if you still think that all/most protesters on maidan were paid/brainwashed and that Yanukovich was best possible ruler for Ukraine - well, then we see things very differently and probably even live in different countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on April 15, 2014, 12:31:28 am
economical situation is becomming worse pretty fast as a reason. as reason can be taken the way how those people became a current government, the way how was it propaganded and all the stuff is a good reason to protest against current government and the obvious way to fix the trouble - just be a part of another country with about same government for many years. do not forget that country is a paper thing, for real there is no such thing as country in this world same as sience and lots of other stuff. they was developed by the people in process of evolution and technological&cultural progress.

brainwashed egoistic scum is the worst part of Maydan. yes, we can say that the problem with the previos government was national because the fuck was given not to a single person. but everyone who came there cared about their own life, not about life of other people. not about life of people who disagree. first of all - about themselfs. is it wrong? maybe not. but how can they be allowed to choose the life for millions of other people?
they was just ruining the mafia leadership of previos government... but what did the country gain from it? and thats a trouble. that was obvious that nothing will be better and people actually knew who they are turning to the government.



so this democrative government wasnt asking me about my agreement, they are propaganding the things I dislike... sorry but am I ukrainian if my own country is betraying me? maybe I am ukrainian but not from THIS Ukraine.
Quote
Yanukovich was best possible ruler for Ukraine - well, then we see things very differently and probably even live in different countries
yeah seems we live in different countries but the trouble is I will be fucked by the new government same as you are but the difference is you wanted to be fucked but I didnt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 12:39:59 am
Quote from: serr on April 14, 2014, 11:51:06 pm
but people had all reasons to protest, to demand resignation of government and Yanukovich. And if you still think that all/most protesters on maidan were paid/brainwashed and that Yanukovich was best possible ruler for Ukraine - well, then we see things very differently and probably even live in different countries.

Of course people had right to protest, they still have. No one is saying that most protesters were paid or brainwashed. But those who organized the whole thing were paid. Look at Turkey. Regular folks fought even harder than Maidan protesters but they couldn't do anything.

When it happened in my country I was still young. Was supporting the revolution of course, we were poor (we still are), wanted a better life. But was always wondering how come the army and police turned to side of the people when years before that they did everything to hurt those people. Most of us believed in fairy tale they did it because they wanted to protect the nation from evil overlords. But that's not it. They only disobey orders when someone more powerful than president tells them to do so. Military and police are chain of power and responsibility, that's the only way they understand.

That is why Gezi protesters failed but you guys succeeded. Every single successful coup in last 100 year happened because side that wanted change was more powerful. In last decades it is mostly result of foreign intervention. Regular folks are never more powerful than forces that serve the government. They need good organization and resources.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 15, 2014, 03:22:59 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 12:39:59 am
Regular folks are never more powerful than forces that serve the government. They need good organization and resources.

Like Russian officers and Soldiers?

I tend to stay out of this discussion as it's on the(almost) other side of the world from me, but some of the stuff I keep hearing from the "Russia First" or "Things were better before maidan" seems mostly based on hearsay from propaganda. I mean, the Maidan stuff has tons of videos about the protest(not revolution, since no government change actually happened) and it's far far more tame than this Russian Backed Insurrection/Revolution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 08:18:17 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 14, 2014, 04:33:07 pm
When USSR 2.0 are busy with Yurop, China will strike and invade Russia
Purin already bought Chinese love - Kalinka Malinka and matryoshka  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 15, 2014, 08:28:20 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 15, 2014, 08:50:53 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 15, 2014, 08:28:20 am

I know right...

I would say "let the Ukrainians figure out internally what they want" but putler (and russiaa band of sheep after him) seems to don't give a ducks dick what other countries want.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 09:01:40 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 15, 2014, 08:28:20 am
On dat video Ukranian lost more than half of armored forces  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on April 15, 2014, 09:31:10 am
Looks like eastern Poles done it. They started civil war :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 10:00:39 am
Quote from: Piok on April 15, 2014, 09:31:10 am
Looks like eastern Poles done it. They started civil war :(
you do not watch YouTube? obviously this is Kremlin  influence  :P eastern Poles only trained apes for maidan  :P

I honestly do not understand what kind of civil war in Ukraine do you tell if one side is Russian provokers pretending to be members of "right sector" and the other is Russian soldiers posing as self-defense forces.  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on April 15, 2014, 10:18:26 am
By eastern Poles I should rather wrote soon to be.
Cos Poland will be probably only country interested in poor western Ukraine :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 10:32:12 am
Quote from: Piok on April 15, 2014, 10:18:26 am
By eastern Poles I should rather wrote soon to be.
Cos Poland will be probably only country interested in poor western Ukraine :wink:
Keep your hands off them! they belong to Putin and mother Russia! we conquered them first!

actually I think it was already all decided early in July 2013, and now we see just the show for the public. Everything must be done before the election, after election all these unpopular decisions will be ascribe as "sad mistakes" of the current government. Russian will get naval base and  USA and EU  new economical slaves, and Poles new whores and plumbers  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on April 15, 2014, 10:43:28 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 10:32:12 am
Keep your hands off them! they belong to Putin and mother Russia! we conquered them first!

actually I think it was already all decided early in July 2013, and now we see just the show for the public. Everything must be done before the election, after election all these unpopular decisions will be ascribe as "sad mistakes" of the current government. Russian will get naval base and  USA and EU  new economical slaves, and Poles new wores and plumbers  :P
Mongolia seems to be better candidate for conquest. You know nice nature and friendlier natives an so on :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 10:54:19 am
Quote from: Piok on April 15, 2014, 10:43:28 am
Mongolia seems to be better candidate for conquest. You know nice nature and friendlier natives an so on :mrgreen:
Putin waits until they develop their system of gas pipes  :P
Then we send there herds of Russian horses and begin to defend their independence  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 10:56:29 am
I am confused about all those "Right sector"-fascists talk coming out of Russia tbh.
A country ruled by a despot-like former secret agent where beating up gay men is the new popular sport of the uneducated and unemployed masses, driving like a sane man seems to be an insult and marching into another country with soldiers doesn't seem to warrant page 1 in the newspapers which aren't allowed to report freely cuz otherwise they might end up as dead the other reporter chick and voting results exceed the 100% and nobody even shrugs their shoulders about it, in a land which used to provide proper mathematicians.

I know, I know... all cliché and stereotypes but sometimes it really seems to be this way for the majority of the Russian population. I feel happy for myself that I don't live there. I happily stay German, let others call me chocolate chip cookie all day but I am actually at least allowed to do and think whatever I want :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 10:59:40 am
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2014, 10:56:29 am
(click to show/hide)
   Today i beat 5 gays and how was your day?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 11:04:51 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 10:59:40 am
   Today i beat 5 gays and how was your day?
You're hardly uneducated :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 11:10:30 am
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2014, 11:04:51 am
You're hardly uneducated :P
they said the same thing (but the police who came to help me silenced them

tbh 90% of population dont cares about gays, about gays cares only photographers cos they can get 10$ for each photo with beaten gay and 100 if it has a chocolate chip cookie who beat him. In our time, it is impossible to sell the newspaper if you only print photos with rainbow (if its not on a gay flag) and  butterflies ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 11:11:27 am
Do no think that Nationalism is the core of the problem. If you want to understand what happens in Central Asia, Caucasus, Ukraine or Middle East (etc.) you have to understand the geostrategy of Oil and Gas.
Chechenya :  Oil pipeline crossing the country from Caspian sea to Black sea. Islamist led by Qataris
Afghanistan : Oil pipeline from Turkvmenistan to Pakistan. Saoudis/ USA
Irak : Oil wells. USA direct invasion
Syria : Oil pipeline from Qatar to Mediterrean sea. Qatar, USA
Ukraine : Gas pipeline from Russia to EU. Destabilization by USA, EU
Venezuela : Oil wells, US coups

Read Brezinsky books , read the PNAC project, listen to the CFR, read books about Peak Oil etc. There is nothing "secret", there is no conspiracy. People are just blind and stupid. They think as primitives, always talking about religion or nationalism. They do not want to see the blueprint, they just want to believe they are free. But their masters wants a single thing : Power
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on April 15, 2014, 11:21:05 am
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2014, 10:56:29 am
where beating up gay men is the new popular sport of the uneducated and unemployed masses, driving like a sane man seems to be an insult
You disappoint me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 11:21:21 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 11:10:30 am
they said the same thing (but the police who came to help me silenced them

tbh 90% of population dont cares about gays, about gays cares only photographers cos they can get 10$ for each photo with beaten gay and 100 if it has a chocolate chip cookie who beat him. In our time, it is impossible to sell the newspaper if you only print photos with rainbow (if its not a gay flag) and  butterflies ^^
Then what about all those videos on social media?
I do realize that there are always trends in the news and there barely are statistics to back those trends up.
Some time ago, you would always hear about paedophiles and kids in the German news. At least once a week it seemed to happen to another kid when the statistics even showed a reduced number of those kind of crimes. But people on the street got hysterical about it, only because the news were spreading the information - which wasn't faulty or untrue - without telling the full story/ explaining the whole situation.
But it's very difficult to become aware of those kind of scenarios cuz you can hardly use half your day for research on every single topic that may be flawed by this kind of "cheating".

I feel lucky cuz Germany happens to have a rather trustworthy and independent national television including their news. They are not perfect but when you listen carefully, you can see the effort to be as objective as possible (inb4 Warlord claims otherwise cuz #yolo).

And now I forgot my point I actually wanted to make  :lol:  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 11:29:32 am
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2014, 11:21:21 am
Then what about all those videos on social media?
near my old job placed a park where gays dates for 3 years i never seen any fights.

there will always be a video on how gays beat the chocolate chip cookies, Muslims Christians, black in spanishs Chinese. And local media will show those that are relevant to their society.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 15, 2014, 11:44:37 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 11:52:13 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 11:29:32 am
near my old job placed a park where gays dates for 3 years i never seen any fights.

there will always be a video on how gays beat the chocolate chip cookies, Muslims Christians, black in spanishs Chinese. And local media will show those that are relevant to their society.
So, do you think that the majority of the common folks of Russia don't care about gay people or do you think that said majority supports those laws "against" the gay?
Honestly interested.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 11:54:36 am
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2014, 11:52:13 am
So, do you think that the majority of the common folks of Russia don't care about gay people or do you think that said majority supports those laws "against" the gay?
Honestly interested.
do u read dat law?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 15, 2014, 11:58:19 am
Quote from: Segd on April 15, 2014, 11:44:37 am
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Welcome to the unique Ukrainian Safari! Offers a European service quality and true Russian hospitality! A wide selection of sewing production: flags, bandages, tape. The most interesting attractions: break the monument, catch tank, put the opponent on his knees! In organizing events involved the best professional animators from USA!
Totally free popular in Ukraine Molotov cocktails! Two tires, the AK-74, mask "the face of the Maidan" and two magazines with cartridges! Test your luck! Come and visit us! No need to waste time! Or the show will come to You!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 11:59:38 am
Got a break in this thread and it looks to me that some things got changed. Though Tovi still posts conspirational bullshit and Vovka still thinks that his broken sarcasm is funny, Butan and Dark Blade seem to rethink some of their positions (minor though).

To the topic: if any of you think that current separatists want to break Ukraine because of "new" government then you're wrong. All those main separatists in my city for instance are known to demand the separation of South-East for years already. They didn't really refuse the fact that they supported Russian nationalists... until now. Because Russian propaganda changed and nationalism is bad now but you can not hide obvious things. I sincerely can't understand how this propaganda works but it obviously does as there are a lot of people who get influenced by it badly. I think it's appropriate to quote Joseph Goebbels "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed", not sure if misquoted but it fits well. Just amazing how rapidly propaganda adapts to situation and how people change their opinions. If I have time I'll show you examples. Good job to those who make this propaganda and I wish more brains for those who get influenced by it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 15, 2014, 12:01:56 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=64a_1397526357

Quote
Footage has emerged of a vehicle under fire from Ukrainian Insurgents in the Donetsk region, which has become increasingly unsafe for vehicles in the region.

The car was apparently fired upon by members of a group known as "Self-Defense Donbass", or "Power of Donbass", who have allegedly been kidnapping citizens. It was being driven by a company owned employee who have recently engaged the services of security guards for protection.

The driver received five bullet wounds. A security guard in the vehicle took control of the vehicle moments after the shooting, and drove the vehicle with a punctured tire to Stakhanov, where the driver was then transferred to a
district hospital Artemivska .

In another incident related to the group, a member of the public was pulled out of their vehicle at the same location, tied up, and put in the trunk of the same car together with another abducted man in the back seat .


Day by day, I watch shit like this from the Ukranians, and I wish that Putin starts a full on assault against them, enslave them and send them to gulags to break rocks until they die.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 12:02:23 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 11:59:38 am
Got a break in this thread and it looks to me that some things got changed. Though Tovi still posts conspirational bullshit and Vovka still thinks that his broken sarcasm is funny, Butan and Dark Blade seem to rethink some of their positions (minor though).

To the topic: if any of you think that current separatists want to break Ukraine because of "new" government then you're wrong. All those main separatists in my city for instance are known to demand the separation of South-East for years already. They didn't really refuse the fact that they supported Russian nationalists... until now. Because Russian propaganda changed and nationalism is bad now but you can not hide obvious things. I sincerely can't understand how this propaganda works but it obviously does as there are a lot of people who get influenced by it badly. I think it's appropriate to quote Joseph Goebbels "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed", not sure if misquoted but it fits well. Just amazing how rapidly propaganda adapts to situation and how people change their opinions. If I have time I'll show you examples. Good job to those who make this propaganda and I wish more brains for those who get influenced by it.
ty now get a breake again country need ur command skills as officer
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 15, 2014, 12:08:31 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 11:59:38 am
Got a break in this thread and it looks to me that some things got changed. Though Tovi still posts conspirational bullshit and Vovka still thinks that his broken sarcasm is funny, Butan and Dark Blade seem to rethink some of their positions (minor though).

To the topic: if any of you think that current separatists want to break Ukraine because of "new" government then you're wrong. All those main separatists in my city for instance are known to demand the separation of South-East for years already. They didn't really refuse the fact that they supported Russian nationalists... until now. Because Russian propaganda changed and nationalism is bad now but you can not hide obvious things. I sincerely can't understand how this propaganda works but it obviously does as there are a lot of people who get influenced by it badly. I think it's appropriate to quote Joseph Goebbels "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed", not sure if misquoted but it fits well. Just amazing how rapidly propaganda adapts to situation and how people change their opinions. If I have time I'll show you examples. Good job to those who make this propaganda and I wish more brains for those who get influenced by it.

I believe that's a Hitvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
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r quote saying "The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."

Which also happens to be the perfect excuse for any conspiracy theorist.


"Power of Dumbass" lel
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 12:08:55 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 15, 2014, 12:01:56 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=64a_1397526357


Day by day, I watch shit like this from the Ukranians, and I wish that Putin starts a full on assault against them, enslave them and send them to gulags to break rocks until they die.

Oh seriously Panos? I thought you had more brain. Thank you Panos for making a great example of nobrainer victim of propaganda. Funny how Vovka instantly upvoted his post :D

Those people who fired at the vehicle are the same people as were in Crimea. "Pro-Russian self-defence" or whatever Russian propaganda calls it. Why starting a full assault on Ukraine if they come from Russia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 12:10:56 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 15, 2014, 12:01:56 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=64a_1397526357


Day by day, I watch shit like this from the Ukranians, and I wish that Putin starts a full on assault against them, enslave them and send them to gulags to break rocks until they die.
From what I could google real quick, I get the impression that those "Power of Dombass" dudes are Pro-Russian. :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 15, 2014, 12:11:57 pm
Yes, yes we already got it by now Dave, those who support Russia are idiots, no brainers and dumb, while people who support Ukraine, are living prodigies .

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 12:17:18 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 15, 2014, 12:11:57 pm
Yes, yes we already got it by now Dave, those who support Russia are idiots, no brainers and dumb, while people who support Ukraine, are living prodigies .

 :lol:

No-no Panos. People who ask to "start full assault" after watching videos "day by day" without even getting who is who are idiots.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 15, 2014, 12:23:31 pm
Oh, Dave is back! You lost your arms and you got fired? Or, may be, "evil people" robbing you of the tank? Please tell us! (Serr hiding in the basement for a month already. He can't be objective. We need fresh truthful news from the battlefields of the great Ukrainian Revolution!)  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 12:23:53 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 12:08:55 pm
Oh seriously Panos? I thought you had more brain. Thank you Panos for making a great example of nobrainer victim of propaganda. Funny how Vovka instantly upvoted his post :D
Those people who fired at the vehicle are the same people as were in Crimea. "Pro-Russian self-defence" or whatever Russian propaganda calls it. Why starting a full assault on Ukraine if they come from Russia?
he paid me ((

if in the country there are "pro-whatever apes", it means that the country is weak and it should be captured by Putin. Also if u check video again u will see what bald guy shoted in the air, shouted "stop", but smart guy tried ride away.
I'm not defending anyone. guys on the road have thought that in car is criminals and those who was in the car, might think that the criminals on the road, it only shows that the government does not control the situation. but putin will fix dat.

ps. join self-defence force in your country, burn tires, beat the windows, and then call Putin to protect u  :P
pss. omg i misspelled name of my greate leader iam doomed!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 12:27:43 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 11:59:38 am
Got a break in this thread and it looks to me that some things got changed. Though Tovi still posts conspirational bullshit and Vovka still thinks that his broken sarcasm is funny, Butan and Dark Blade seem to rethink some of their positions (minor though).

To the topic: if any of you think that current separatists want to break Ukraine because of "new" government then you're wrong. All those main separatists in my city for instance are known to demand the separation of South-East for years already. They didn't really refuse the fact that they supported Russian nationalists... until now. Because Russian propaganda changed and nationalism is bad now but you can not hide obvious things. I sincerely can't understand how this propaganda works but it obviously does as there are a lot of people who get influenced by it badly. I think it's appropriate to quote Joseph Goebbels "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed", not sure if misquoted but it fits well. Just amazing how rapidly propaganda adapts to situation and how people change their opinions. If I have time I'll show you examples. Good job to those who make this propaganda and I wish more brains for those who get influenced by it.

Obviously you can't read : there is no conspiracy. Nothing is secret, but you just can't read a book as you can't read what i write. So, continue to watch your little videos and believe what you want. You must be right, oil and gas are not significant in this world  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 12:29:16 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 12:27:43 pm
Obviously you can't read : there is no conspiracy. Nothing is secret, but you just can't read a book as you can't read what i write. So, continue to watch your little videos and believe what you want. You must be right, oil and gas are not significant in this world  :lol:

They're significant but not relevant to this topic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 12:30:24 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 12:27:43 pm
Obviously you can't read : there is no conspiracy. Nothing is secret, but you just can't read a book as you can't read what i write. So, continue to watch your little videos and believe what you want. You must be right, oil and gas are not significant in this world  :lol:
yep all people born free, and can influence to their life by going to elections.  :P
Molly i hope u like to read
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 12:35:31 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 15, 2014, 12:29:16 pm
They're significant but not relevant to this topic.


So you don't want to know why all this shit happens. Ok, why not.

And can you explain what this guy (http://rt.com/usa/white-house-confirms-cia-ukraine-448/) is doing in your country ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 12:40:33 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 12:35:31 pm

So you don't want to know why all this shit happens. Ok, why not.

And can you explain what this guy (http://rt.com/usa/white-house-confirms-cia-ukraine-448/) is doing in your country ?
apparently on trips in the homeland of Russian cities, Kiev is beautiful this time of year)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 15, 2014, 12:55:41 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 12:35:31 pm

So you don't want to know why all this shit happens. Ok, why not.

And can you explain what this guy (http://rt.com/usa/white-house-confirms-cia-ukraine-448/) is doing in your country ?
The irony is - ITS NOT RUSSIAS GOD DAMN FUCKING BUSINESS what a guy is doing in a FOREIGN COUNTRY:)

Geddit?  :rolleyes:

Also - for the russian guys - why did you not let a referendum take place in chechnya? Do you have a government approved version of polit-correct answer?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 15, 2014, 01:01:13 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 15, 2014, 12:01:56 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=64a_1397526357


Day by day, I watch shit like this from the Ukranians, and I wish that Putin starts a full on assault against them, enslave them and send them to gulags to break rocks until they die.


"apparently", "allegedly" real solid proof no doubt
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 01:01:31 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 15, 2014, 12:55:41 pm
The irony is - ITS NOT RUSSIAS GOD DAMN FUCKING BUSINESS what a guy is doing in a FOREIGN NATION :)
Geddit?  :rolleyes:
Also - for the russian guys - why did you not let a referendum take place in chechnya? Do you have a government approved version of polit-correct answer?
cos we are not a democratic pussy like a half of a europe XD
and cos we need them as a bufer zone against muslims  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 01:02:20 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e0dwbfbVcQ

pro russian prapoganda channel mostly shit but sometime show interesting livestreams
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on April 15, 2014, 01:05:11 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 15, 2014, 12:55:41 pm
The irony is - ITS NOT RUSSIAS GOD DAMN FUCKING BUSINESS what a guy is doing in a FOREIGN COUNTRY:)

Geddit?  :rolleyes:

Also - for the russian guys - why did you not let a referendum take place in chechnya? Do you have a government approved version of polit-correct answer?

You can get information from internet, I can ask chechens personally and funny fact they dont want referendum when most of  russian want them to get out from russia. :D but it's not gonna happen.
* not  about 1990s.

Quote from: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 11:54:36 am
do u read dat law?

!


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 15, 2014, 01:22:22 pm
Quote from: Yarl on April 15, 2014, 01:05:11 pm
You can get information from internet, I can ask chechens personally and funny fact they dont want referendum when most of  russian want them to get out from russia. :D but it's not gonna happen.
True. Хватит кормить Канзас!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 01:27:13 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 10, 2014, 02:53:48 pm
A lot of the pro-Putin sentiments pretty much come from disenfranchised neo-chocolate chip cookie retards, like Panos. Take a look at Liveleak comments sometimes, you get the gist very fast of what sort of Strongman Dictator worshipping cocksucker adore him so much, fighting against the evil NWO jewish conspiracy. Alex Jone type sites also rife with it.

like it or not, putin's been leading russia far better than most of the previous leaders of russia/ussr

ussr got down only 20 years ago, a lot of russian people are still in ex soviet countries, makes sense that they want to join back russia, mostly cause russia is the main provider for a lot of ressources used in ukraine and because russia weights a lot more than europe who's sucking obama's cock every night and days since 45 and since de gaulle died for france

with all the shitty powerless leaders without any charisma in europe, no surprise people support putin

in europe we spend years making laws for 10 000 gays to fuck each other, and politics look like they're part of some reality show with all the personal dramas

politics do nothing but living a media life, earning tons of cash without improving anything or even taking part to parliaments, using corruptions for all their friends, families, and even the whores they fuck, they're making governments of friends in which they give all their close friends a minister, none of them has any skill to rule a country, they didn't even make proper studies for fuck sake, our 2 past prime ministers had a bachelor in german and in history, this is just ridiculous, they donno shit about economy and the consequences of what they're doing, they're like blind kids playing with buttons of a nuclear plant

putin is a dictator and a kgb member, but at least he's not hiding it and he's acting properly
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 01:40:16 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 15, 2014, 12:55:41 pm
The irony is - ITS NOT RUSSIAS GOD DAMN FUCKING BUSINESS what a guy is doing in a FOREIGN COUNTRY:)

Geddit?  :rolleyes:



And it's not ukrainians business too !  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 01:48:26 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 01:27:13 pm
(click to show/hide)
dont listen to him it's a putins agent hack olwen's account
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 15, 2014, 02:21:06 pm
No, Olwen is just retarded. Nothing new here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 15, 2014, 02:22:01 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 15, 2014, 01:40:16 pm
And it's not ukrainians business too !  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

You are dodging the point with some BS "would be funny if not last century" remark... :|

Quote from: Paul on April 15, 2014, 02:21:06 pm
No, Olwen is just retarded. Nothing new here.
I guess there is this type of character, which would rather his government did all the same corruption and wastefull living shit, that it currenly does, BUT - with an added extreme control over media, which would prevent him from the need to throw the trash out once in a while during the elections. This is the popular "hipster" oppinion also shared by Butan. I rest by case here, you never know what you have until you loose it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 02:23:16 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 01:27:13 pm
like it or not, putin's been leading russia far better than most of the previous leaders of russia/ussr

ussr got down only 20 years ago, a lot of russian people are still in ex soviet countries, makes sense that they want to join back russia, mostly cause russia is the main provider for a lot of ressources used in ukraine and because russia weights a lot more than europe who's sucking obama's cock every night and days since 45 and since de gaulle died for france

with all the shitty powerless leaders without any charisma in europe, no surprise people support putin

in europe we spend years making laws for 10 000 gays to fuck each other, and politics look like they're part of some reality show with all the personal dramas

politics do nothing but living a media life, earning tons of cash without improving anything or even taking part to parliaments, using corruptions for all their friends, families, and even the whores they fuck, they're making governments of friends in which they give all their close friends a minister, none of them has any skill to rule a country, they didn't even make proper studies for fuck sake, our 2 past prime ministers had a bachelor in german and in history, this is just ridiculous, they donno shit about economy and the consequences of what they're doing, they're like blind kids playing with buttons of a nuclear plant

putin is a dictator and a kgb member, but at least he's not hiding it and he's acting properly

Thanks for proving my point. Any other right-wing fascist wannabes to come out of the woodwork and proclaim that Putin's jizz in their mouth tastes like the sweetest chocolate?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 02:28:52 pm
only saying it tastes better than Hollande fucking us in the ass since 2 years :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 15, 2014, 02:33:21 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 02:28:52 pm
only saying it tastes better than Hollande fucking us in the ass since 2 years :)
And how many times did you get fucked in the ass by a dictator you can't AVOID re-electing next time the elections come? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 15, 2014, 02:35:47 pm
3 months ago :
John Kerry, US secretary of the state : on central ukraine pro-EU crisis

"We will work with the people of Ukraine and support them, with military/economical assistance so that they form new legitimate government and can stay strong, until they can provide for themselves without fear of losing their political independance"


Nowadays :
John Kerry, US secretary of the state : on eastern ukraine pro-RUS crisis

"Russian agents are clearly behind the provocateur movement, whose main goal is to destabilize the governement of Ukraine, they are unmistakingly feeding the crisis and manipulating the masses to create a basis for an invasion, to gain political and economical control of the region by involving themselves on a sovereign independant country."



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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 02:40:08 pm
If you think Hollande is fucking France in the ass you've never lived in a country with actual, real fucking problems. The "copinage" alone is about a billion times worse in the neo-fascist, oligarchic, ultra-nationalist shithole Russia is turning into (or has been for a while, depending on your perspective). You can pretend that "OOhhhh nooooeee, the West is JUST as corrupt and filled with oligarchic militarists", but it's quite obviously not true. The "it's all grey" false equivalencies thrown around in this thread from Putin cock suckers is mostly about feeling a sense of martyrdom and persecution, because morons with zero sense of reality want to perceive their first world political problems as somehow being equal to a fucking militarist dictator blatantly dismembering a sovereign country under the guise of "protecting" his "race". ( At least for non-russians, ivani and Vovka's reasons are mostly to due with the previously mentioned ultra-nationalist fascist zeitgeist and their stranglehold over the media).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 02:47:13 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 15, 2014, 02:35:47 pm
3 months ago :
John Kerry, US secretary of the state : on central ukraine pro-EU crisis

"We will work with the people of Ukraine and support them, with military/economical assistance so that they form new legitimate government and can stay strong, until they can provide for themselves without fear of losing their political independance"


Nowadays :
John Kerry, US secretary of the state : on eastern ukraine pro-RUS crisis

"Russian agents are clearly behind the provocateur movement, whose main goal is to destabilize the governement of Ukraine, they are unmistakingly feeding the crisis and manipulating the masses to create a basis for an invasion, to gain political and economical control of the region by involving themselves on a sovereign independant country."



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USA never won any war they fought from the beginning. Their major tactics is to provoke a war, wait till those who actually fight it become weak enough so that american soldiers can barge in and call themselves heroes.

They need war in Europe and they are going to do everything to make it happen. Luckily for us, Germans aren't into it and have different priorities.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 15, 2014, 02:53:22 pm
Leshma, if that's all USA fault and they want war in Europe - why the hell does Russia help them with it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 02:57:48 pm
Quote from: serr on April 15, 2014, 02:53:22 pm
Leshma, if that's all USA fault and they want war in Europe - why the hell does Russia help them with it?
they have a deal  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:02:28 pm
It's just that western governments are using vaseline to fuck us so we don't figure it out that fast

yet, they're making terrible economic choices which will have terrible consequences for our economy, they're stopping our economy from improving which makes investors and society builders flee from our countries

they're ignorant of both society and of the consequences of their choices

they're giving favors to foreign investors and they're raising taxes on national workers and bosses

they're allowing extreme imigration in an already overcrowded europe

they're corrupted as fuck, they rule only according to their friendships and their cocks, they have hundreds of advantages for the poor work they do and they cost millions if not billions to our countries

They control most of the media who are biaised and who receive threats (if not sanctions) if they reveal some things

Those politicians we have in western europe are a danger to our countries and refusing to face it is just as dangerous
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 03:04:29 pm
Quote
Leshma, if that's all USA fault and they want war in Europe - why the hell does Russia help them with it?

I believe we went through it many times so far. You see, Russia and Russians think they own your country Ukraine (similar can be said for USA and Japan for example). So this is a situation of "take your hands of my property, you filthy murican" for Russians. That's how they percieve it.

USA on the other hand needs war because their debt is growing each day, their dollar is worthless piece of paper only supported by their military strength and nothing else. By waging wars they aren't directly involved at first but take the cake at the end, they weaken other superpower and strengthen their position in the world. They also earn shit load of money that way because their economy goes into overdrive while economies of other countries suffer because war is fought on their soil. Both World Wars helped USA to become what it is today, for them that's recipe for success.

Also what Vovka said isn't impossible. USSR and Germany had a deal before WWII to split Europe as they wanted. But einstein thought he was strong enough to take everything for himself and that deal was cancelled.

USA don't give a shit about you or your country. They just want their fat asses to be well fed and they are going to fight anyone who stands in their way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 15, 2014, 03:04:52 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 02:47:13 pm
USA never won any war they fought from the beginning. Their major tactics is to provoke a war, wait till those who actually fight it become weak enough so that american soldiers can barge in and call themselves heroes.

They need war in Europe and they are going to do everything to make it happen. Luckily for us, Germans aren't into it and have different priorities.

OMG.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 03:06:40 pm
Ukraine as the spiritual successor to Poland, being Molotov-Ribbentropped between Russia and EU? As far as conspiracy theories go I've heard more retarded ones. It's still Illuminati/NWO level shit of course.
Anyways, I can only hope Ukraine is doing everything it can to enrich uranium from it's reactors. I don't even know if they are able to, but seeing as how the entire world is apparently fine with it being ripped appart,  giving a finger to any other non-proliferation treaties it may be signatory to (ignoring the one Russia shat all over) and reclaiming it's nuclear capability seems like the only barrier to further escalation. The only thing Strongman Putin and his fascist supporters understand is the use and threat of force apparently.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 03:08:20 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:02:28 pm
(click to show/hide)
wonder you're still alive!

will be interesting to see what will happen in five years, in the south-eastern Ukraine and Crimea under the control of Russia and in  Western Ukraine with receivership of Germany or Poland
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 03:09:20 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 03:08:20 pm
wonder you're still alive!


It's no wonder at all. He's just a fucking pussy drama queen who has no idea what actual repression and corruption is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 03:13:24 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 03:06:40 pm
Ukraine as the spiritual successor to Poland, being Molotov-Ribbentropped between Russia and EU? As far as conspiracy theories go I've heard more retarded ones. It's still Illuminati/NWO level shit of course.
Anyways, I can only hope Ukraine is doing everything it can to enrich uranium from it's reactors. I don't even know if they are able to, but seeing as how the entire world is apparently fine with it being ripped appart,  giving a finger to any other non-proliferation treaties it may be signatory to (ignoring the one Russia shat all over) and reclaiming it's nuclear capability seems like the only barrier to further escalation. The only thing Strongman Putin and his fascist supporters understand is the use and threat of force apparently.

But what if Strongman Putin is Madman Putin who believes that his anti-missile system is strong enough and attack first? Then we're all fucked. Best way would be to send all nuclear weapons to space, because they didn't bring us anything good so far.

Any kind of large scale war will put civilization couple centuries in the past and we would never recover from it. Most scientist are well aware of it, sadly politicians and military commanders usually lack education in that field...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:13:58 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 03:09:20 pm
It's no wonder at all. He's just a fucking pussy drama queen who has no idea what actual repression and corruption is.

do you? :s

you're working for the state, no surprise you're supporting it for the advantages it gives you oberyn ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 03:17:38 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:13:58 pm
do you? :s

you're working for the state, no surprise you're supporting it for the advantages it gives you oberyn ;)

Am I? I worked as IT support for the accounting system of the city of Paris for a couple of years. Do you know what I'm doing now? I'll just say it's in the private sector, so your dumb little assertion is useless. But sure, tell me more about how France is literally hell on earth. I want to drop fuckers like you in the middle of a real shithole, maybe have some sense of perspective beaten into you by real life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:24:05 pm
you don't see the long term consequences of economic choices

i did the studies to understand those and i foresee them

you never worked in a sector in crisis

i worked for Renault as a specialized manual worker building cars, you have no idea of how hard it is and the hell they're going through

you don't come from the country

i am from the country and i can see how people struggle to live in the country because their villages and their economy are completely abandonned


matter of perspective?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 15, 2014, 03:24:43 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 03:13:24 pm
Best way would be to send all nuclear weapons to space, because they didn't bring us anything good so far.

Might as well wish for the fairy godmother to turn you into a pretty pretty princess, because that's as likely to happen. MAD is the only reason the Cold War never turned hot, as it could've have almost immediately. From Potsdam onwards it's always been at the brink.
Frankly if humanity can't handle nuclear weapons we're doomed anyways. As science keeps progressing the potential destruction that man can cause will only keep increasing. Nuclear weapons are the least of our worries. Biowarfare is the real danger. And if history has proven anything it's that everything that can be weaponized, will.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 15, 2014, 03:37:47 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 15, 2014, 03:13:24 pm
Best way would be to send all nuclear weapons to space, because they didn't bring us anything good so far.

What.

Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:24:05 pm
i did the studies to understand those and i foresee them

i worked for Renault as a specialized manual worker building cars

Seems legit.


Quote from: Vovka on April 15, 2014, 12:30:24 pm
Molly i hope u like to read
(click to show/hide)

That has to be the most productive post of this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on April 15, 2014, 03:42:35 pm
Hooray for more leaked phone calls.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:44:16 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 15, 2014, 03:37:47 pm
Seems legit.

i work during holidays, bitch please


T'es trop facile à troller oberyn ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 15, 2014, 04:42:28 pm
One thing I learned at this forum , is never try to argue with morons like Oberyn, Molly and Kafein, just troll them and then leave them bitching around.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 05:02:49 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 15, 2014, 04:42:28 pm
One thing I learned at this forum , is never try to argue with morons like Oberyn, Molly and Kafein, just troll them and then leave them bitching around.
I lol'd. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 15, 2014, 05:25:59 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2014, 05:02:49 pm
I lol'd. :)

Nah, I`m pretty sure you`re butthurt, and wanted to type some of your moaning bullshit, but you preffered to act it all cool.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 15, 2014, 05:38:32 pm
back on topic

City of Kramatorsk, eastern Ukraine, goverment "anti-terrorist" actions are taking place since morning, there are reported casulties amongst the separatists in the local air base which Ukrainian forces have taken control of.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 15, 2014, 05:44:27 pm
The comments on that video:
"DEATH TO TRAITORS, KILL KREMLIN COCKSUCKERS, GLORY TO UKRAINE!"
"DEATH TO UKR my old friendS, FLY AROUND WHILST YOU STILL CAN, GLORY TO RUSSIA!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 05:47:09 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 15, 2014, 05:25:59 pm
Nah, I`m pretty sure you`re butthurt, and wanted to type some of your moaning bullshit, but you preffered to act it all cool.
If it makes you feel better, by all means I was massively butthurt and wanted to moan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 06:44:36 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2014, 05:47:09 pm
If it makes you feel better, by all means I was massively butthurt and wanted to moan.

Gave me a boner
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2014, 07:37:30 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 06:44:36 pm
Gave me a boner
Always happy to help :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 15, 2014, 07:55:28 pm

Those protest signs.. USSR flags.

*Headdesk*

edit: then I scrolled down to read the comment section...

.-.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 15, 2014, 08:57:07 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 15, 2014, 03:02:28 pm
(click to show/hide)
You are so full of shit. Like Oberyn said, you have no fucking idea what it is to live in a country where you really do get fucked. Also the corruption in the West doesnt even come close to what it is in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 15, 2014, 09:37:00 pm
I would simply recommend everyone to travel a bit and see for yourselves.. I'm not a huge traveller myself, but I've seen that:

Scandinavia > Most Western Countries > Recovering Eastern Europe > Ex-Soviet > Russia.

In wealth, fairness, security, quality of life..  And the biggest problem is not the poverty, it is the corrupt way of thinking, prevailing in those countries.

Take Poland, together with Estonia one of the countries who did best after the fall of USSR. They don't have much resources, but the ones they have are often wasted in ways not imaginable in the west. In my school, every teacher has an assistant teacher, usually not doing anything except sitting obediently next to the main teacher in class, and sending emails/organizing things which in any normal country, the teacher himself would do. They build a brand new "Media" building because of a supposed lack of classroom space, when the room space they HAVE is used extremely inefficiently. In Norway the room usage would probably be on 80%, but here it can't be more than ~30%.  The departments are fighting in between themselves, and the teachers are capitalizing on it. In a class that could easily fit a 100 students, they rather fit 15, 7 times a week, so that teacher can have more work.. There is of course ZERO transparency, and the schools budget is a closely guarded secret that very few have seen. 

Anyway, there are no protests, teachers are hired for life, and they are also powerful decisionmakers in the industry relevant to my studies, so all students do is suck their dicks, and no one wants to put their ass on the line. Any single teacher has the power to fuck a student out of school almost on their whim. (I was kicked out at some point, but a friendly teacher thought me how to suck dick polish way, and I got back in.)

NOW.. The farther into ex-soviet you go, the worse this shit gets, and Russia itself is the worst. (ok maybe Bialyrus)

To give an example, on a school I was in in Norway, the student leader went straight up to the headmaster and demanded to see the school budgets. And he got it straight away.

In Norway my father once let himself be arrested because the post office closed in front of his eyes, while he still had a queue ticket. That started a major debate in the local newspaper. 2 months later, the post office changed their queue policy and their opening hours.

That is how it should be.

Back to Ukraine.

While I do understand Putins personal motives, I think the strategy is really really bad for the People of Russia. They have managed to brainwash them into hating the west, while Europeans as a people, really are very similar. And the western system, definitely with its problems, have shown itself to be completely superior. There is no comparison.

The reason people here don't see this is because they haven't gone to see for themselves. There is too much noise in all channels, there is no truth to be found, and arguments supporting anything can be easily found.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 15, 2014, 09:58:53 pm
Four dead and several wounded. The armed Forces said that the shot was not the Army, but the soldiers of the national guard (the right part). However, there is a very high probability that today at night the government forces of Ukraine will continue the offensive. Then, within 2 days, the world will get acquainted with the new "unrecognized" Republic. And on its borders will be protected by peacekeepers (from Byelorussia and Kazakhstan likely).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: musketer on April 16, 2014, 01:30:38 am
So, this is the beginning of WW3? hmmm ok. I need some popcorns.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 08:02:35 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 15, 2014, 09:37:00 pm
...While I do understand Putins personal motives, I think the strategy is really really bad for the People of Russia. They have managed to brainwash them into hating the west, while Europeans as a people, really are very similar. ...
Why do you think that the people of Russia have for You the feeling of hatred?  :rolleyes: Hmm... It's bullshit." We sometimes a little laugh at your countries, over the government, over the EU. But this does not hate! Personally I don't like when next to me are blacks or gays... But I'm never going to Lynch them! May they live, grow rich and prosper, only a little bit away from me. I also, for example, do not like the dog of breed "bull Terrier". But I don't want their destruction. I don't want them to torment...
On Friday, 12.04.14, I was in Estonia (business trip from the company). Beautiful people. In the evening sat in the restaurant, we talked excellent. In Estonia all Estonians fluent in Russian. And sellers (in stores the price tags on goods write in two languages), and the waiters, and, of course, the employees of the power plants. I think the "state" language in Estonia, communicate only the President and the government. For more than a day - there was no conflict! What kind of hate you talking about? We have not experienced and do not feel hatred. I for example think of Estonians honest and cultured people. This is due to the fact that there's probably little gays and blacks. (Joke).  :mrgreen:
However, I am probably the most "evil man" in Russia. There are many people who are very loyal to the European quirks and eccentricities. What kind of hatred for the Europeans are you talking about?  8-)

A little about Ukraine. "National guard" and residents in the town of Krasnoarmeysk:   
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 16, 2014, 08:16:02 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 08:02:35 am
(click to show/hide)

Didn't like... 90% of russians were saying this about Ukraine people? Now suddenly - eastern Ukraine = "our brothers, must liberate", rest = chipped cookies, bandits, etc. I just don't buy it :) Oh, and on top of that - "we will just take this piece of country we promised NOT to take 17 years ago. Times'a'changing ya know..." :) Track record is NOT on your side on this. I have colleagues in russia, Ukraine, Belorussia and the way to work with them in a civilized manner now is to ignore this topic. That's how you get the "politeness" you witnessed.

As to the video - I salute the restraint those sodiers showed. When something similar happened in Lt 24 years ago - citizens got beaten, shot at and driven over by tanks. Looking at other places - in some countries police has the right to shoot on site at a person being closer than 6 m and not obeying resonable commands (like "stay back"). Reason is simple - a person with a knife can run 6 meters faster and kill the officer faster, than he can be shot dead. Thus the risk is not to be taken. All in all - an suitable restraint and reaction from the side of soldiers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 16, 2014, 08:19:37 am
The fact ivanič you compared human beings to dog breeds is just wow...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 08:30:54 am
Gorlovka:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 08:42:23 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 16, 2014, 08:16:02 am
(click to show/hide)
[/spoiler]
 in your every post I see how deeply ussr hurt you in the ass  :(


Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 08:02:35 am
Why do you think that the people of Russia have for You the feeling of hatred?  :rolleyes: Hmm... It's bullshit." We sometimes a little laugh at your countries, over the government, over the EU. But this does not hate!
it's all because of what you missed the lecture "why we hate the West" and "how to teach a child to quickly hate the West"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 16, 2014, 09:10:45 am
For a lot of people in western countries, they didn't even know that Ukraine and Russia were 2 different countries...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 09:16:36 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 16, 2014, 09:10:45 am
A lot of people in western countries, didn't even know before 9h news that Ukraine exist, and google it right after
fixed for u  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 16, 2014, 10:12:46 am
Quote from: Prpavi on April 16, 2014, 08:19:37 am
The fact ivanič you compared human beings to dog breeds is just wow...


I was amazed too, how the hell he dared to compare the most loving and trustworthy living being, with humans.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 16, 2014, 10:15:23 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 08:42:23 am
in your every post I see how deeply ussr hurt you in the ass  :(
Unfortunately - yes.  It was highly unfortunate to be born in a dissident family at those times  :|

Quote from: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 08:42:23 am
it's all because of what you missed the lecture "why we hate the West" and "how to teach a child to quickly hate the West"
Its because of the earlier ideas by Ivani4 about "periodically beating his neighbors to keep balanced and good relationship with them". I didn't get his answer about whether he does that to his actual neighbors, on a street level and how well that works out for him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 16, 2014, 10:36:53 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 16, 2014, 10:12:46 am

I was amazed too, how the hell he dared to compare the most loving and trustworthy living being, with humans.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 10:41:46 am
Racist person prefers dogs to humans, that's so cliché Panos.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 16, 2014, 10:47:19 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 08:02:35 am
(click to show/hide)

Not all estonians are fluent in russian. A lot of people in the capital and Narva are. In other places, significantly less. But yea, I agree with Ivan on the part that we have learned to somewhat get a long. But thats due to the fact that the russian immigrants that migrated here long time ago and had families, their children have basically grown up. And they have gotten proper education and they are significantly more tolerant people overall then sameaged toothless russianborn drunks that would migrate here now. The issue has always been that the russians refused to learn to speak estonian IN Estonia. Now that the new generation of russian-estonians mostly does speak it, we have less issues.

 But I do belive the statelanguage should only be estonian. Russians arent exactly tolerant people and from what ive seen the immigrants bluntly refuse to learn it and estonians arent very numerous compared to russians. 1.3 million(0.4 of it being already russians) vs 143 million. Imagine what would happen if russian was a statelanguage in our country. The need to learn our language in our own country would disappear and russians would completely overrun us to the point where we could no longer have our own language and even culture in our own land. This is the case with Narva. Most estonians dont live there cause you basically cant be estonian to survive there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 11:00:11 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 16, 2014, 10:47:19 am
sameaged toothless russianborn drunks
be nice with them or u will pay !  :evil:
Quote from: Tibe on April 16, 2014, 10:47:19 am
This is the case with Narva. Most estonians dont live there cause you basically cant be estonian to survive there.
give it to russia  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 11:14:18 am
Right now:
The troops of the regular armed forces of Ukraine entered in Slavyansk. Military tied St. George ribbons. Set the Russian flag at the armored vehicles. Ride all comers on the BMP and BMD.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 11:16:14 am
We westerners really don't know what we want. 30 years ago we were happy every time a russian pilot (or submarine officer wink wink) went west. Now we hate it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 11:42:31 am
Slaviansk:
Ysinovataia:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 12:29:15 pm
Tomorrow again say:
Putin has again outwitted the West! Putin for a long time, over 10 years, was staffed power structures (Bercut, the Ministry of the interior) and the army of Ukraine's Pro-Russian citizens! This is "the hand of the KGB" abolished conscription for military service. This is the Russian defense Minister Shoigu, personally controlled that all officers in the army of Ukraine perfectly knew the Russian language and the history of their country - Russia! These agents Putin campaigning among the "Supadance": "do Not serve in the army, you'd better have to fight a guerrilla methods for chocolate chip cookie-power in Rivne and Zakarpattia regions!".
  "Zapadentsy," that the inhabitants of the Western regions of Ukraine. Not only do they consider themselves "Ukrainians", not the poles, Hungarians or Romanians... They think that they are "the most correct Ukrainians". "Supadance" -a real Ukrainian. Other wrong Ukrainians speak "the language of cattle - surjik language...
Now in the Armed Forces of Ukraine are only Russians, Tatars, Byelorussians and wrong surjik are Ukrainians!
Bloody Putin again figured out how to capture the Ukraine without blood!
 :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 12:35:42 pm
Many think that without Putin this wouldn't happen. And they are right. If someone else was in charge this most likely won't happen. Two examples what could happen:

You can hate Putin all you like, but the fact is he stole a country with almost non lethal methods, something only experienced spy can pull of. He trained regular grunts to act like agents ffs. George W. Bush killed millions and achieved nothing...

This is not about Putin or his brainwashing methods. Russians don't like westerners for centuries, it's not something that happened overnight. Therefore it can't be fixed overnight, as Thomek naively believes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 12:41:21 pm
why u all think what russians dont like westerners  (( ur gov't brainwashing u!
We love ur culture, bubblegum, cities, electrical engineering..... and soon dat all will be ours!  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 16, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
I didn't say they don't like westerners. They don't like the west. They are made to believe NATO is a threat, while it has been dismantled in Europe. In stead it has become a geopolitical tool for US.

Nothing wrong with Russian people, and I know Russians and Ukrainians don't have anything against each other, and in many ways are very similar..

Problem is that the propaganda benefits from creating ethnic fear..  Putin wants a weak Ukraine that he can dominate as easily as he have already done.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 12:52:53 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 12:35:42 pm
This is not about Putin or his brainwashing methods. Russians don't like westerners for centuries, it's not something that happened overnight. Therefore it can't be fixed overnight, as Thomek naively believes.

Russian people and media do not enjoy the same freedom of expression as that of western countries. For this reason it is very difficult to know what the Russian people think about sensitive issues, because there is virtually no civil society.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 16, 2014, 12:58:32 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 10:41:46 am
Racist person prefers dogs to humans, that's so cliché Panos.


Thanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 01:01:55 pm
Kramotorsk:  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 01:04:56 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 12:52:53 pm
Russian people and media do not enjoy the same freedom of expression as that of western countries. For this reason it is very difficult to know what the Russian people think about sensitive issues, because there is virtually no civil society.
hey iam here! ask me, ask me!
kalp go away!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 01:09:52 pm
Free ride all really-free people of Donbass!  8-)
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Radament on April 16, 2014, 01:20:26 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 10:41:46 am
Racist person prefers dogs to humans, that's so cliché Panos.
i'm racist too then , fuck humans ! w Furries ! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 16, 2014, 01:32:19 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 16, 2014, 12:58:32 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 10:41:46 am
Racist person prefers dogs to humans, that's so cliché Panos.
Thanks.

This passage is from one of my favorite books of all times - "And Quiet Flows The Don". A WW1 senior Cossack is teaching a freshman how to deal with enemies:

-----------------

“Человека руби смело. Мягкий он, человек, как тесто, — поучал Чубатый, смеясь глазами. — Ты не думай, как и что. Ты — казак, твое дело — рубить, не спрашивая. В бою убить врага — святое дело. За каждого убитого скащивает тебе бог один грех, тоже как и за змею. Животную без потребы нельзя губить, — телка, скажем, или ишо что, — а человека унистожай. Поганый он, человек.. . Нечисть, смердит на земле, живет вроде гриба-поганки”

"Cut a man down boldly! Man is as soft as dough." A smile came into his eyes. "Don't think about the why and wherefore. You're a Cossack, and it's your business to cut down without asking questions. To kill your enemy in battle is a holy work. For every man you kill - God will wipe out one of your sins, just as he does for killing a serpent. You mustn't kill an animal unless it's necessary, but destroy man! Human's a heathen, unclean; he poisons the earth, he lives like a toadstool!"

--------------

It's not as awesome in Englsih, as it is in Russian though... But yeah, i kind of like dogs more than humans too :) Does not make me want to kill anyone, but i see nothing wrong in preferring a company of an animal to a company of a human.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 01:41:41 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 12:52:53 pm
Russian people and media do not enjoy the same freedom of expression as that of western countries. For this reason it is very difficult to know what the Russian people think about sensitive issues, because there is virtually no civil society.

Can't agree with that. You give yourself too much credit. Country where I live in is very similar to Russia in many aspects. But I'm not brainwashed in any way, barely watch local television. Gather almost all information on internet, which is free as a bird in here (Germans can't say the same, for example).

Seems to me that when you say freedom of mind and expression, you will tolerate only one view on things and completely disregard the others. How exactly that makes you different from Russians, aside from taking opposite stances?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 16, 2014, 01:44:34 pm
Ungr var ek forðum
   fór ek einn saman
   þá varð ek villr vega;
   auðigr þóttumk
   er ek annan fann
   maðr er manns gaman.


I was once young,
   I was journeying alone,
   and lost my way;
   rich I thought myself,
   when I met another.
   Man is the joy of man.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 16, 2014, 02:15:09 pm
People's Republic of Odessa? I knew it. The moment I heard Russians were taking over Ukrainian ships in Crimea, I knew that at some point they were going make move to seize the whole coast.

And again, in the East soldiers and officers joining pro-Russians. FSB alone has potential to demolish Ukrainian army from the inside. Putin's plan is playing out.

I think its now just a matter of time before Russian troops cross the border.

Good luck to Ukraine and to all of its people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 02:17:24 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 01:09:52 pm
Free ride all really-free people of Donbass!  8-)


"Ukrainian military entered the Kramators'k APCs with the flags of Russia to "partisan way to get into the city," - Sobolev

Head of "Fatherland" in the Verkhovna Rada Serge"


omg! tricky bastards! they outwit Putin, they gave Crimea and eastern Ukraine is given to get the government! they will soon seize power and create the Ukrainian federation! we are dooomed!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 02:18:44 pm
Quote from: Corwin on April 16, 2014, 02:15:09 pm
People's Republic of Odessa? I knew it. The moment I heard Russians were taking over Ukrainian ships in Crimea, I knew that at some point they were going make move to seize the whole coast.

And again, in the East soldiers and officers joining pro-Russians. FSB alone has potential to demolish Ukrainian army from the inside. Putin's plan is playing out.

I think its now just a matter of time before Russian troops cross the border.

Good luck to Ukraine and to all of its people.
Dave would not allow it, he Use all his two education to enlighten people on the streets!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 03:21:23 pm
Quote from: Corwin on April 16, 2014, 02:15:09 pm
People's Republic of Odessa? I knew it. The moment I heard Russians were taking over Ukrainian ships in Crimea, I knew that at some point they were going make move to seize the whole coast.

And again, in the East soldiers and officers joining pro-Russians. FSB alone has potential to demolish Ukrainian army from the inside. Putin's plan is playing out.

I think its now just a matter of time before Russian troops cross the border.

Good luck to Ukraine and to all of its people.

Quote
However, the Republic ceased to exist when it was sacked by German and Austro-Hungarian troops on March 13, 1918, two months after its creation, following the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk between the Central Powers, Ukrainian People's Republic and Petrograd Sovnarkom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_Soviet_Republic

These dudes are even dressed as Soviets...

Is Odessa new Bosnia? From what I read they placed barricades on roads... sounds like Bosnia to me. I'm fairly sure that at this point civil war can't be avoided.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 03:28:14 pm
air raid:
 

The "national guard" in search of enemies of Ukraine:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 03:30:24 pm
http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/157183/nato-reinforces-its-presence-while-prorussians-expand-to-the-south-of-ukraine

Is this shit real?

Allied forces?? Soviet uniforms? Ships on baltic sea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 16, 2014, 03:34:05 pm
Ukraine isnt yet in NATO and they already send ship/airplane/tank to "help bolster security"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 16, 2014, 03:34:51 pm
What's the problem? They have to reassure NATO members that they are ready to defend them, that's why there will be theatrics with sending planes, ships and other bullshit in Baltics, Poland and other Eastern European countries. But that's all that is - theatrics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 03:41:07 pm
Dude, my father never believed Yugoslavia will ever fall apart, no matter how many signs of that were around him. When the war started, I was 5 years old, sitting at my desk drawing bloody Ninja Turtles. Never finished the drawing... when second war started (NATO bombing) I was playing football outside when sirens signalized an attack... was 13 years old atm, now I'm 28 and totally expect it to come again at the time I'll least expect it. Good thing my building still has working atomic shelter...

Also check out this map. It's from some conspirator's blog but that doesn't mean the map is correct.

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According to this map, they will go for western Ukraine as well. And Moldavia.

Many will find this comment inappropriate but this seems to me like "All whores belong to us" situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 16, 2014, 03:43:55 pm
I believed that since the begining. Actually, since Crimea. Putin is playing to win big.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 03:47:09 pm
For some reason I don't think this will go as easily as with just Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 04:07:50 pm
Leshma,
Don't be sad!
You know what was the name of  Donbass (not even a lot more territory) in the 18th century? Slavicserbia and New Serbia!  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 16, 2014, 04:14:53 pm
War involving Russia since Putin became president in 1999:

- 1st-2nd-3rd Tchetchen War (1999-present)
- Georgia War (2008)





War involving USA since 1999:


- Kosovo War (1998-1999)
- Afghanistan War (2001–present)
- Philippines War  (2002-present)
- Sudan-Somalia-Djibouti-Ethiopia-Eritrea-Seychelles-Kenya War (2002-present)
- Second Liberian War (1999-2003)
- Iraq War (2003-2011)
- Pakistan War (2004-present)
- Trans Sahara War (2007-present)
- Yemen War (1998-present)
- Libyan War (2011)



War involving Europe since 1999:

- France interventions in Africa and Europe support sent for USA



Quote from: Corwin on April 16, 2014, 03:43:55 pm
Putin is playing to win big.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 04:24:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 16, 2014, 02:18:44 pm
Dave would not allow it, he Use all his two education to enlighten people on the streets!
Not a lot about Odessa:
 
Ukraine ready to repel an attack from the sea!
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 16, 2014, 04:26:10 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 01:41:41 pm
Seems to me that when you say freedom of mind and expression, you will tolerate only one view on things and completely disregard the others. How exactly that makes you different from Russians, aside from taking opposite stances?

When I'm talking about freedom expression, I'm talking about freedom of expression, not something else. I have opinions, you have opinions, everyone of us can express them, but that doesn't mean I have to agree or even listen to what you say. Of course, the decision of agreeing or not, listening or not is strictly individual, otherwise it's not freedom of expression. Just like freedom of religion means that choosing your beliefs is a strictly individual matter.

I do not try or want to muzzle people like Ivani, but I still can call them Putin apologists and argue against them.

Quote from: Butan on April 16, 2014, 04:14:53 pm
War involving Russia since Putin became president in 1999:

- 1st-2nd-3rd Tchetchen War (1999-present)
- Georgia War (2008)

War involving USA since 1999:

- Kosovo War (1998-1999)
- Afghanistan War (2001–present)
- Philippines War  (2002-present)
- Sudan-Somalia-Djibouti-Ethiopia-Eritrea-Seychelles-Kenya War (2002-present)
- Second Liberian War (1999-2003)
- Iraq War (2003-2011)
- Pakistan War (2004-present)
- Trans Sahara War (2007-present)
- Yemen War (1998-present)
- Libyan War (2011)

War involving Europe since 1999:

- France interventions in Africa and Europe support sent for USA

This again ? Can you be on topic for once ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 04:35:03 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 04:07:50 pm
Leshma,
Don't be sad!
You know what was the name of  Donbass (not even a lot more territory) in the 18th century? Slavicserbia and New Serbia!  8-)

I'm not sad. I just had enough war in my life, don't want to go through it again. In the 18th century real Serbia was under Ottoman occupation...

Quote
War involving Russia since Putin became president in 1999:

- 1st-2nd-3rd Tchetchen War (1999-present)
- Georgia War (2008)

Well, Russia is obviously satisfied with the current situation. War will happen in case of civil unrest (pro russian vs pro western) or in case NATO decides to intervene.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 16, 2014, 04:35:58 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 12:35:42 pm
Many think that without Putin this wouldn't happen. And they are right. If someone else was in charge this most likely won't happen. Two examples what could happen:
  • If Russian president was a western puppet, none of this would happen but I fear that is impossible because Russian people would probably execute such president
  • If Russian president wasn't ex-KGB agent but rather some military hothead like Stalin was, this wouldn't happen at all. There would be no infiltration, no sabotage, no insurgents. There would be tanks, thousands of dead people on both sides.



If Russian president wasn't ex-KGB agent? He would had a deadly accident/cancer...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 16, 2014, 05:42:23 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 16, 2014, 04:14:53 pm
(click to show/hide)

And your point is?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: djavo on April 16, 2014, 06:35:07 pm
This was intentionally written in klingon so only Gnjus, Leshma, chadz and others klingons can totally understand it. For rest of you have shitty google translate.

Situacija nije tako jednostavna na prvi pogled. Naime samo slijepcu nije vidljivo mješanje zapada pogotovo SAD-a u destabiliziranju Ukrajine što se Rusiji naravno ne sviđa, ipak im je Ukrajina najveći i najbliži susjed sa brojnim povijesnim vezama i mrljama. S druge strane imamo očitu teritorijalnu otimačinu pod krinkom zaštite ruskog naroda u Ukrajini što je nadasve smiješno. Teško mi je ostati pristran nakon što je isti ovakav scenario bij u bivšoj Jugoslaviji '91 kad su Srbi koristili ista opravdanja za otimanje teritorija Hrvatske i Bosne i Hercegovine. Hrvatska je uspijela povratiti svoj teritorijalni suverenitet ali ono što se u BIH dogodilo je van svake pameti. Zemlja je od hadžija podijeljena na 3 rejona i sve pod blagoslovom zapada. Neću sad detaljnije ulaziti u to jer nema smisla ali sve se to sada ponavlja u Ukrajini. Budući da za razliku od većine vas na forumu dobro znam što je rat i borba za neovisnost, duboko se nadam da nitko iz Ukrajine neće to morati proživljavati na svojoj koži mada budimo realni sranja se već događaju.
Dakle kratki zaključak svega huškači sa zapada i istoka se bore za teritorijalno uporište i resurse Ukrajine dok su Ukrajinci oni koji će pojesti sva ta govna što im "gospoda" spreme.
I ako se situacija ne promijeni uskoro jest će ih i brojne nadolazeće generacije.
Ono što bi se realno moglo dogoditi je podijela Ukrajine na pro rusku i pro zapadnu stranu, naravno s blagoslovom Putina i Obame. Možda bude i neki novi berlinski zid.
Jedino dobro iz svega ovoga što bi moglo proizaći je ban svim ruskim igračima dote kao sankcije sa zapada.

Miomir Žužul translation:

The situation is not so simple at first glance . That is just not visible to the blind mixing west , especially the U.S. and the destabilization of Ukraine as Russia, of course, do not like , though they Ukraine 's largest and closest neighbor with many historical ties and stains . On the other hand, we have an obvious territorial robbery under the guise of protecting the Russian people in Ukraine which is extremely funny . I find it hard to remain biased after this same scenario was in the former Yugoslavia in '91 when the Serbs used the same excuse to grab territory Croatian and Bosnia and Herzegovina . Croatia has managed to restore its territorial sovereignty but what happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina is beyond mind . Country of pilgrims divided into three regions and all the blessings of the West . I am not going to go into detail because it does not make sense , but everything is now repeated in Ukraine . Because unlike most of you well know now is that the war and the struggle for independence , deeply hope that no one from the Ukraine will not have to live in your own skin , although let's be real shit is already happening .
So short conclusion of all mongers from the west and east are fighting for territorial foothold and resources of Ukraine while Ukrainians that they will eat all the shit they " Mrs. " degree .
And if the situation does not change soon is the number of them and the generations to come .
What would have happened is real giveaway Ukraine on a pro Russian and pro west side , of course, with the blessing of Putin and Obama . There may be some new Berlin Wall .
The only good thing from all this that might arise is ban all Russian players dote as sanctions from the West.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 16, 2014, 06:43:21 pm
Italy should do the same as Russia and take back Istria and Dalmatia

http://youtu.be/kqokVpQ98Aw?t=1m10s
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 16, 2014, 07:17:57 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 16, 2014, 06:43:21 pm
Italy should do the same as Russia and take back Istria and Dalmatia

http://youtu.be/kqokVpQ98Aw?t=1m10s

Corsica first.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 16, 2014, 07:45:26 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 16, 2014, 06:43:21 pm
Italy should do the same as Russia and take back Istria and Dalmatia

http://youtu.be/kqokVpQ98Aw?t=1m10s


Sounds good to me. Can Austria take the northern regions again plox, would be lovely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 07:52:55 pm
Quote from: djavo on April 16, 2014, 06:35:07 pm
Teško mi je ostati pristran nakon što je isti ovakav scenario bij u bivšoj Jugoslaviji '91 kad su Srbi koristili ista opravdanja za otimanje teritorija Hrvatske i Bosne i Hercegovine. Hrvatska je uspijela povratiti svoj teritorijalni suverenitet ali ono što se u BIH dogodilo je van svake pameti. Zemlja je od hadžija podijeljena na 3 rejona i sve pod blagoslovom zapada.

Pazi ovako, te tri zemlje koje pominjes su dugo godina bile pod necijim patronatom tj. nisu bile nezavisne. Sve sto cu napisati je iz istorije tj. povijesti i sve i sam znas.

Srbija je imala taj neki period u srednjem veku kada se malo uzdigla ali to sa Srbijom od 1867. na ovamo veze nema. Drugi narod, druga vlast, drugi jezik, zivelo se zajedno sa Grcima u vreme najvece slave. Car Dusan, sto se ovde narod pali na njega kao velikog Srbina je bio Vizantijski vladar koji je govorio grcki jezik...

Srbija posle Osmanlija je kao nastavak te srednjevekovne Srbije ali to vise nije bilo to, niti su Srbi tada a pogotovo danas slovenskog porekla, niti su zadrzali navike i jezik od pre Turaka. Danasnja Srbija se nastavlja na taj period posle Osmanlija, kao i sve ideje Velike Srbije. Meni ta Srbija ide na onu stvar je ma koliko se puvali to nikada nije bila narocito uspesna drzava a sama ideja monarhije mi je ogavna i to je jedino gde podrzavam komuniste tj. boljsevike jer su se resili kraljeva, careva i ostalih sranja gde se vlast nasledjuje.

Za Hrvatsku slicno vazi, mada je Hrvatska kroz istoriju imala vecu nezavisnost jer ipak nije bila pod vlascu Turaka vec Austro-Ugarske.

Sto se Bosne tice, zemlje u kojoj sam rodjen, tu je istorija tek sarena. Fakticki, posle Kotromanica i Srednjeg veka ta drzava vise nije postojala kao nezavisna i to je razlog zasto su se ustase i cetnici prvi dogovarali oko cepanja a posle Slobo i Franjo (pa se nisu dogovorili, a zapadni i njihov osobni tj. licni ekonomski  interes bio da se zarati pa se i zaratilo jelte). Bosna u sastavu Jugoslavije je bila Jugoslavija u svom najcistijem obliku. Multietnicka zajednica gde su svi bili dobrodosli. Bosanski nacionalizam nije postojao, ekstremizam u Bosni je zapravo islamski ekstremizam koji je vise manje importovan tokom rata iz islamskih zemalja. Upravo jer je tako bilo u Bosni su odlucili da bas Bosnu i pocepaju. Medjutim Bosna kao neka nezavisna drzava i nema puno smisla jer je to bila Jugoslavija koje vise nema. O pripajanju delova Bosne Srbiji i Hrvatskoj nema govora tako je najbolja sansa Bosne da u okviru neke nove velike drzave tj. Evropske Unije zasija kao nekada.

Ima jos jedna bitna stvar, valja utvrditi ko su Srbi, ko Hrvati a ko Bosanci (ili Bosnjaci kako chocolate chip cookievaju muslimane). Beograd je davao naredjenja i vodio rat, to je grad u kojem danas zivim. Ali reci da su Srbi upravljali iz Beograda je malo nezgodno jer su u Beogradu na vlasti tada bili a vecinom su i danas ljudi poreklom iz Crne Gore a oni se danas ne izjasnjavaju kao Srbi. Sto je najgore Hrvati su dobri sa Crnogorcima... Milosevic je crnogorac, kao i vecina generala koji su vodili rat, Karadzic je isto crnogorac a Mladic je iz Bosne, na granici sa Hercegovinom. Ako su Crnogorci i Hercegovci Srbi onda jesu Srbi ti koji su vodili rat.

Ovi sto su im porodice formirane za vreme Kraljevine su vecinom bili u emigraciji i vratili se tek posle 2000. godine i do skora su vedrili i oblacili Srbijom kroz takozvane liberalno-lopovske struje sve dok nije dosao Veliki Vodja Vucic koji je... pogadjaj... Bosanac/Hercegovac kao i vecina njegovih ministara.

Srbi jednostavno nisu sposobni da sebe ustolice tako da po Srbiji uglavnom vladaju Crnogorci, Bosanci i Hercegovci na sta oni stalno i kukaju.

Jos jedna stvar oko Bosne. Tamo gde sam ja rodjen je bilo svih, danas su tamo full muslimani a prizor je ko da se nalazis u Avganistanu. U Prijedoru gde su bili muslimani sada zivi moja rodbina sa oceve strane koji se deklarisu kao Srbi iako nikakve veze sa Srbijom nemaju vekovima osim sto su kao eto Pravoslavci. Isto tako familija sa strane majke koji se deklarisu kao Hrvati jer su jelte katolicke veroispovesti. Tako da sam ja posle tog crtanja nindza kornjaca imao situaciju da idemo da se sklonimo kod babe (sa majkine strane) dok je moj stric (rezervni oficir povlaka debil) prosipao srpstvo haubicom sa obliznjeg brda na iste te kuce gde je bila i moja bada... pa posle kada je mojoj majci najbolje drugarica od preko 30 godina (od detinjstva) rekla da ide sa svojim narodom, da bi na kraju moji jedva izvukli zivu glavu (posto su prosli koridore sa razlicitim zastavaka na kojima su jednako glavati pustali ili ubijali ljude) jer su u nekoj jebenoj sumi naleteli na pokojnog vladiku/pedofila Kacavednu Tuzlanskog pa ih on promuvao do Srbije. U Hrvatsku se nije smelo ici jer mi je otac, Jugosloven do tada, preko noci postao Srbin a da ga nije nista pitao pa samim tim nije ni mogao u lipu vasu... Rodjaci zbrisali Austrija/Nemacka, jedino najmladji ujko mobilisan u JNA pa kada se otkrilo da je iz katolicke porodice prebijen milion puta i bacen u zarobljenistvo. Danas ima 300 kila i slabo da ista progovara a i kada prica ne cujes ga...

Tako da nemoj da mi spominjes nezavisnost, veliku Srbiju, domovinski rat, skorpione, zenge, arkana, legiju, tomsona, gotovinu, aliju, republiku srpsku, federaciju i ostala sranja. Da se ja pitam isto bi uradio sto i pokojni Tito, obnovio zemlju a sve "nezavisne" proterao da tucaju kamen na vise otoka posto ih je ocigledno jako puno...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 16, 2014, 08:25:39 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 16, 2014, 08:26:00 pm
Quote from: djavo on April 16, 2014, 06:35:07 pm
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 07:52:55 pm
(click to show/hide)

Jebem ti mater pićku
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on April 16, 2014, 08:36:42 pm
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Don't know if it's true. intradasting however - Even if it is, doesn't really change anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 16, 2014, 08:50:39 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on April 16, 2014, 08:36:42 pm
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Don't know if it's true. intradasting however - Even if it is, doesn't really change anything.
It would take a bit of wind out of the "USA does wars everywhere"-people's sails.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 16, 2014, 08:58:51 pm
(click to show/hide)
Related to previous. Cannot be arsed to translate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on April 16, 2014, 09:50:00 pm
And another leaked call apparently concerning Russian operations in Eastern Ukraine.


http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-smoking-russian-gun/25334376.html

Seems like a pretty dicey business, we'll have to wait and see if and when any definite evidence turns up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 16, 2014, 10:24:33 pm
There is people who are conducting armed operations in Ukraine, and they communicate with each other with telecommunication. That is not news. A news would be if they are from the russian army, russian supported russian rebels, russian supported ukrainian rebels, or just ukrainian rebels.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 16, 2014, 10:30:50 pm
On previous leaked call they were instructed by someone from Russia, who also mentioned they will also report to Aksenov - ruler of Crimea.
If there was way to prove that these calls are not fake - it would be 100% proof that Russia is behind all this, sadly it's hardly possible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on April 16, 2014, 10:49:50 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 16, 2014, 10:24:33 pm
There is people who are conducting armed operations in Ukraine, and they communicate with each other with telecommunication. That is not news. A news would be if they are from the russian army, russian supported russian rebels, russian supported ukrainian rebels, or just ukrainian rebels.

Clearly you didn't properly watch the video or read the link, since that IS the news. Although as serr pointed out, there's no definitive proof yet, but if they claim to have the man responsible in custody, that's certainly something to take note of. Interesting to see what this announcement they have planned for tomorrow will be.

Quote
But it may be Andriy Parubiy, the head of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, who holds the true smoking gun. Parubiy, a former lawmaker and Euromaidan protest leader, announced on April 15 that SBU agents had detained officers from the Russian Defense Ministry's main intelligence wing, the GRU, for involvement in the eastern actions.

The "Kyiv Post" later identified the main detainee as Igor Strelkov, a GRU commanding officer and the leader of the paramilitary group that has taken control in the eastern city of Slovyansk. The SBU said Strelkov arrived in Crimea at the beginning of March and had been identified in a recorded telephone conversation with a Moscow official on April 14:

Quote
The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) has identified Igor Strelkov as the leader of the paramilitary group that has taken control of the eastern city of Sloviansk. Strelkov is a commanding officer of a Russian military intelligence unit.

The press service of the SBU announced that they had identified Strelkov’s voice in a recording of a telephone conversation between Strelkov and a Moscow official on April 14.

The SBU said that Strelkov arrived in Crimea at beginning of March and began directing Russian troops and special forces to occupy Ukrainian military outposts and government buildings, and orchestrated the kidnappings of Ukrainian soldiers, activists, and other Ukrainian and foreign citizens.

Strelkov has reportedly recruited Ukrainian citizens to conduct subversive actions in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

According the SBU statement, “The saboteur personally gave orders to Ukrainian citizens “K” and “B” to occupy and hold the Kharkiv regional administration building, military outfits, and law enforcement units with the goal of seizing weapons in the Luhansk Oblast.

The SBU has already started a criminal investigation of Strelkov for “premeditated murder and committing acts threatening the sovereignty, territorial integrity, and inviolability of Ukraine, conducting subversion, and organizing riots in the eastern regions” of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 11:13:40 pm
Quote from: serr on April 16, 2014, 10:30:50 pm
If there was way to prove that these calls are not fake - it would be 100% proof that Russia is behind all this, sadly it's hardly possible.
To prove it is really very difficult. But how they work!
 
Please note - no wounded or killed. Good job.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 16, 2014, 11:25:10 pm
Indeed, I didnt see the link. Now to have proof of the identity, is the next step. Most probably, Russia will not recognize that they have been sent here.

The announcement the Ukrainian government made on this subject, put all the people in the same casket.. Anti-terror operations arent solely done against the para-military units.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 11:53:42 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 16, 2014, 11:25:10 pm
Indeed, I didnt see the link. Now to have proof of the identity, is the next step. Most probably, Russia will not recognize that they have been sent here.

The announcement the Ukrainian government made on this subject, put all the people in the same casket.. Anti-terror operations arent solely done against the para-military units.
War go constantly. NATO to hone skills of application of point strikes with rockets on cities. Russia is specialized (over 20 years) on anti-terrorism operations in urban environments, where many civilians. How and who will be able to produce the evidence? To capture (with huge guaranteed losses)? Or cause a surgical strike aviation (destroying a small town and as always makes US, 300-500 civilians)? Even if the arrest or kill these professionals (will have a fantastic scenario), it is unlikely in the pockets will be the passport of the Russian Federation.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 17, 2014, 12:09:10 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 17, 2014, 12:33:33 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 16, 2014, 12:35:42 pm
Many think that without Putin this wouldn't happen. And they are right. If someone else was in charge this most likely won't happen. Two examples what could happen:
  • If Russian president was a western puppet, none of this would happen but I fear that is impossible because Russian people would probably execute such president
  • If Russian president wasn't ex-KGB agent but rather some military hothead like Stalin was, this wouldn't happen at all. There would be no infiltration, no sabotage, no insurgents. There would be tanks, thousands of dead people on both sides.

You can hate Putin all you like, but the fact is he stole a country with almost non lethal methods, something only experienced spy can pull of. He trained regular grunts to act like agents ffs. George W. Bush killed millions and achieved nothing...
Sometimes, Leshma, just sometimes... god.

It's hard to facepalm hard enough. That post is a joke, right? Or are you implying Putin walks around training people in his spy-ways all day? Because nobody else in Russia knows their tradecraft and certainly Putin is the only ex-KGB agent in all of Russia... not that you need ex-KGB agents because they've got FSB among others now. Seriously. Putin is a president. Not a spy-trainer. His background has nothing to do with this. It really isn't hard to go to your special forces/intelligence agency and tell them to start shit. CIA and the US Special Forces have been doing that forever, even though the US President hasn't been ex-KGB...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 17, 2014, 12:34:02 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on April 17, 2014, 12:09:10 am
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Wots dis eh
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 17, 2014, 12:37:39 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 16, 2014, 11:13:40 pm
Please note - no wounded or killed. Good job.
More like shitty Russian marksmanship if nobody was wounded or killed. Or are they trying to kill the building?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 17, 2014, 12:39:58 am
Quote from: Xant on April 17, 2014, 12:33:33 am
Sometimes, Leshma, just sometimes... god.

It's hard to facepalm hard enough. That post is a joke, right? Or are you implying Putin walks around training people in his spy-ways all day? Because nobody else in Russia knows their tradecraft and certainly Putin is the only ex-KGB agent in all of Russia... not that you need ex-KGB agents because they've got FSB among others now. Seriously. Putin is a president. Not a spy-trainer. His background has nothing to do with this. It really isn't hard to go to your special forces/intelligence agency and tell them to start shit. CIA and the US Special Forces have been doing that forever, even though the US President hasn't been ex-KGB...

I didn't mean it in literal sense... and while USA is doing the same, Obama doesn't control them. He's just a puppet, non of those people will listen to what he has to say because he's just another clerk who got chosen to act as a president. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that Putin has direct control over his secret service and that no one makes calls without his permission.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 17, 2014, 12:47:02 am
Quote from: Xant on April 17, 2014, 12:37:39 am
More like shitty Russian marksmanship if nobody was wounded or killed. Or are they trying to kill the building?
Excellent Finnish humor!
Sorry, but I'm sure guys came from Israel or Finland. Drunken moron, who loudly shouted something, from Finland, definitely.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 17, 2014, 12:50:08 am
Xant's from Israël, a snowjew. In Finland, they tell stories to children about snowjews to scare them and prevent them from behaving badly.


Typical finnish sentences: Do your homework or the snowjews will steal your money! Go to sleep or snowjews will eat your soul! If you keep being so selfish you'll become a snowjew!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 17, 2014, 12:52:47 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 17, 2014, 12:39:58 am
I didn't mean it in literal sense... and while USA is doing the same, Obama doesn't control them. He's just a puppet, non of those people will listen to what he has to say because he's just another clerk who got chosen to act as a president. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that Putin has direct control over his secret service and that no one makes calls without his permission.
I assume you have some evidence of Obama being a puppet?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 17, 2014, 01:26:25 am
Unfortunately Ukrainian army is pretty much killed. During last years it was getting less and less powers so I don't really imagine how Ukraine can counter Russia alone just face to face without heavy casualties. What concerns me more is now what's going to happen now but what's going to be in future after all these conflicts. What I hate is double standards all the way from both sides. It's all not really clear in this whole situation. As I've mentioned in the very first post of mine in this thread: after the first Molotov Cocktail and attempt to capture anything Police had to start using guns. Now separatists use pretty much same methods as Right Sector did but they're also reinforced by Russians and current incompetent government is stunned. I still believe that there is no other language easier to understand than a language of power. If they pick the same tactic as they did with Crimea - Donetsk and Luganks will fall apart.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 17, 2014, 02:43:32 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 17, 2014, 08:49:41 am
Good report. You probably already for a long time this report was seen. You have "freedom of access to information". Gorlovka:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 17, 2014, 10:43:28 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 17, 2014, 01:26:25 am
Unfortunately Ukrainian army is pretty much killed. During last years it was getting less and less powers so I don't really imagine how Ukraine can counter Russia alone just face to face without heavy casualties. What concerns me more is now what's going to happen now but what's going to be in future after all these conflicts. What I hate is double standards all the way from both sides. It's all not really clear in this whole situation. As I've mentioned in the very first post of mine in this thread: after the first Molotov Cocktail and attempt to capture anything Police had to start using guns. Now separatists use pretty much same methods as Right Sector did but they're also reinforced by Russians and current incompetent government is stunned. I still believe that there is no other language easier to understand than a language of power. If they pick the same tactic as they did with Crimea - Donetsk and Luganks will fall apart.

A russian conspiracy ? Stop that conspiracy theory bullshit please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 17, 2014, 10:48:18 am
http://stream.1tv.ru/live

if u know russian ^^

Putin confirmed that  behind soldiers of self-defense in the Crimea were the officers of the Berkut from Kiev  and Russian officers ^^ to ensure referendum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 17, 2014, 11:02:53 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 17, 2014, 10:48:18 am
http://stream.1tv.ru/live

if u know russian ^^

Putin confirmed that  behind soldiers of self-defense in the Crimea were the officers of the Berkut from Kiev  and Russian officers ^^ to ensure referendum.

Wow how suprising, he'll probably confirm the same for Donetsk and other regions after a month or two.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 17, 2014, 11:07:20 am
Quote from: Prpavi on April 17, 2014, 11:02:53 am
Wow how suprising, he'll probably confirm the same for Donetsk and other regions after a month or two.
Some day he even admits that Obama his puppy xnxnxnxn
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on April 17, 2014, 11:10:52 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 17, 2014, 10:48:18 am
http://stream.1tv.ru/live

if u know russian ^^

Putin confirmed that  behind soldiers of self-defense in the Crimea were the officers of the Berkut from Kiev  and Russian officers ^^ to ensure referendum.

The real question is why he ever bothered to deny it in the first place.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 17, 2014, 11:28:19 am
Quote from: Prpavi on April 17, 2014, 11:02:53 am
Wow how suprising, he'll probably confirm the same for Donetsk and other regions after a month or two.
start an interesting program on TV. President Putin will answer questions live. In Russia, announced a day off. I will prepare. Need to write a lot of notes. To do a video. A lot of work. I have already installed on the balcony of the Russian flag. Still in the morning to jog: beat the gay and lesbian, made to kneel two Ukrainian nationalists, gave a face to the neighbor took a hamburger a black in spanish, drank a glass of vodka, fed protein and played with bears in the Park. They came to me friends. They are dressed in national clothes: budenovka, flak jacket, valenki. They brought: balalaika, accordion, not a lot of Kalashnikov rifles, ammunition and a lot of red and black caviar salmon and sturgeon. My wife baked pancakes . Flags the USA and the EU we burned last night. There was even a small salute. I am ready to assimilate the information. I am a good citizen of Russia!
Learn Russian language! You then will be able to receive information earlier than the "democratic community".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 17, 2014, 11:29:05 am
As I said, a new shithole belt in making. Would be kinda funny if Janukowitsch gets to be the Lukaschenko there. Maybe with ivani4 as the intellectual leader behind the scenes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on April 17, 2014, 11:43:20 am
Quote from: Xant on April 17, 2014, 12:33:33 am
even though the US President hasn't been ex-KGB...

George Bush Sr. was the Director of the CIA before becoming President of the United States. And his major war against Iraq was considered very successful (for what that's worth), with no occupation by American troops, a mission actually accomplished, and wide international support. He was actually an extremely qualified and competent man to be president.

Of course he then raised taxes slightly to help pay for the prior decade of wars and tax cuts, and immediately lost his reelection despite having a 90 percent popularity rating, because he "betrayed the Republican base" lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 17, 2014, 11:50:37 am
Bush propaganda was pretty good too when they invaded Panama.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 17, 2014, 12:06:04 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on April 17, 2014, 11:43:20 am
George Bush Sr. was the Director of the CIA before becoming President of the United States. And his major war against Iraq was considered very successful (for what that's worth), with no occupation by American troops, a mission actually accomplished, and wide international support. He was actually an extremely qualified and competent man to be president.

Of course he then raised taxes slightly to help pay for the prior decade of wars and tax cuts, and immediately lost his reelection despite having a 90 percent popularity rating, because he "betrayed the Republican base" lol

Then his idiot son stepped up and ruined everything. But no worries, there's always Jeb Bush to save the day :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on April 17, 2014, 12:09:25 pm
And Kurt and Kyle Bush.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 17, 2014, 12:21:23 pm
Do they have some cute girls in the family? A Woman President would be nice for a change :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 17, 2014, 12:22:37 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 17, 2014, 12:21:23 pm
Do they have some cute girls in the family? A Woman President would be nice for a change :)
next president will be or gay or lesbian or cat  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on April 17, 2014, 12:32:41 pm
I am watching this "live-line" TV right now. Putin is actually arguing for cooperation with NATO or his wish for cooperation, and is very calm. Definitely does not feel like he is trying to heat up military tension in any way. Though he called territories of Russia and Ukraine - a historically common space, of sorts. And beings brothers with Ukrainians, and how anti-Russian forces are planting seeds of hatred between our friendly nations, and such.
 
Idk... My judgment must be clouded, since I am Russian myself, but Putin does not look/talk like a bloodthirsty dictator :) It might be cleverly chosen/selected questions he is being asked by common people ( it's live TV ) - but Putin seems to be calming everyone down, and is very peaceful. People who are calling, are mostly angry about all sorts of things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 17, 2014, 12:32:45 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 17, 2014, 11:29:05 am
As I said, a new shithole belt in making. Would be kinda funny if Janukowitsch gets to be the Lukaschenko there. Maybe with ivani4 as the intellectual leader behind the scenes.
Yanukovych was 2 times convicted for criminal offences. In 1967, for robbery, Yanukovych was sentenced to three years of imprisonment. In 1970, for causing grievous bodily harm, he was sentenced to two years of imprisonment. I can't support a policy with a criminal past. No one should have the right to become a head of state or a member of the government, if he has a criminal record for any any crime.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 17, 2014, 12:34:04 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 17, 2014, 12:21:23 pm
Do they have some cute girls in the family? A Woman President would be nice for a change :)

Don't think so. At least not in the spotlight. Closest to female president, apart from usual candidates such as Palin or Clinton is in fact daughter of senator McCain, Meghan. But she's more of a nazi than Panos will ever be (they are rather perfect match, she is fat, Panos is fat, both hate jews, blacks and immigrants). Of course if they ever elect Meghan McCain, new secretary of defense will be Ronda Rousey :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 17, 2014, 12:52:05 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 17, 2014, 12:32:45 pm
Yanukovych was 2 times convicted for criminal offences. In 1967, for robbery, Yanukovych was sentenced to three years of imprisonment. In 1970, for causing grievous bodily harm, he was sentenced to two years of imprisonment. I can't support a policy with a criminal past. No one should have the right to become a head of state or a member of the government, if he has a criminal record for any any crime.
Putin's KGB files would be interesting to read in this context :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 17, 2014, 01:27:42 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 17, 2014, 12:52:05 pm
Putin's KGB files would be interesting to read in this context :lol:
Archives Stasi, Bundesnachrichtendienst and  Militärischer Abschirmdienst are not available to you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on April 17, 2014, 01:31:20 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 17, 2014, 12:34:04 pm
Don't think so. At least not in the spotlight. Closest to female president, apart from usual candidates such as Palin or Clinton is in fact daughter of senator McCain, Meghan. But she's more of a nazi than Panos will ever be (they are rather perfect match, she is fat, Panos is fat, both hate jews, blacks and immigrants). Of course if they ever elect Meghan McCain, new secretary of defense will be Ronda Rousey :lol:

Elizabeth Warren is one of the most leftist, anti-corporate federal politicians in America (Massachusetts Senator) and there is speculation she might run for president. Since Hillary Clinton is a center-right neoliberal, Warren's politics are a fresh change for American progressives, but since her entire career has been taking on Wall Street, its doubtful she will have the money to compete with the Bush's and Clinton's of America.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 17, 2014, 02:07:06 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 17, 2014, 02:41:18 pm
Someone tell her that military equipment isn't as stretchable as herself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 17, 2014, 02:45:40 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 17, 2014, 03:03:24 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 17, 2014, 11:29:05 am
As I said, a new shithole belt in making. Would be kinda funny if Janukowitsch gets to be the Lukaschenko there. Maybe with ivani4 as the intellectual leader behind the scenes.

Stop being so elitist. Ivani4 is the living evidence that simplicity can often be more efficient than complicated and skilled stuff.

Quote
No one should have the right to become a head of state or a member of the government, if he has a criminal record for any any crime.

Agreed, yet the french government is full of people with criminal records
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on April 17, 2014, 04:38:37 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 17, 2014, 12:21:23 pm
A Woman President would be nice for a change :)
I agree!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 17, 2014, 06:23:51 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on April 17, 2014, 12:32:41 pm
I am watching this "live-line" TV right now. Putin is actually arguing for cooperation with NATO or his wish for cooperation, and is very calm. Definitely does not feel like he is trying to heat up military tension in any way. Though he called territories of Russia and Ukraine - a historically common space, of sorts. And beings brothers with Ukrainians, and how anti-Russian forces are planting seeds of hatred between our friendly nations, and such.
 
Idk... My judgment must be clouded, since I am Russian myself, but Putin does not look/talk like a bloodthirsty dictator :) It might be cleverly chosen/selected questions he is being asked by common people ( it's live TV ) - but Putin seems to be calming everyone down, and is very peaceful. People who are calling, are mostly angry about all sorts of things.

Putin is doing what NK has been doing since forever. Testing the international community's patience : dick move, a few years of appeasing tension then dick move again. Georgia was in 2008. In the meantime Obama had the great idea of also appeasing tensions, which apparently only served Putin. In a fair fight it's a case of either MAD or Russia loses (be it economically, politically or militarily), of course Putin is trying to be peaceful and appease tensions after he got what he wanted. Doing anything else would be stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 17, 2014, 07:15:17 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 15, 2014, 04:42:28 pm
One thing I learned at this forum , is never try to argue with morons like Oberyn, Molly and Kafein, just troll them and then leave them bitching around.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on April 17, 2014, 08:18:09 pm
So they've cut a deal.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27072351

Sounds pretty good, assuming all sides stick to the agreement and they're actually able to get the separatists to stand down. Have to see how that goes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 17, 2014, 08:22:23 pm
This seems like a farce: how could EU/US/RUS disarm and dissolve ukrainian-made military formations on Ukraine soil? If they want to continue the revolt, they will, a foreign policy is useless at best, at worst going to put oil on the fire. Those that still believe that the Eastern Ukraine pro-RUS crisis is 100% RUS made will wake up soon.
If EU/US/RUS still has agents/forces/drones/surveillance in Ukraine, they can continue even after such an announcement.

The amnesty offer is the same that Yanukovich offered to those who occupied buildings in central-western Ukraine days before he was ousted.
Basically, its a morale announcement on the fact that they both want the situation to de-escalate, but they have no legitimacy, no power, no tool to influence the escalation or de-escalation of the ongoing revolt of the pro-RUS Ukrainian people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 17, 2014, 08:24:13 pm
Funny. Putin shows how to occupy others territroy. East Ucraines people follow his example. Now truly, why is Putin allowed to occupy land and "freedom fighters" are not allowed to occupy buildings. Its just not fair.  :evil:

This just refers to the BBC news. Not that I think any of this occupying is any good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 17, 2014, 08:56:37 pm
Quote
This seems like a farce: how could EU/US/RUS disarm and dissolve ukrainian-made military formations on Ukraine soil? If they want to continue the revolt, they will, a foreign policy is useless at best, at worst going to put oil on the fire. Those that still believe that the Eastern Ukraine pro-RUS crisis is 100% RUS made will wake up soon.
If EU/US/RUS still has agents/forces/drones/surveillance in Ukraine, they can continue even after such an announcement.

Depends on what you call RUS made. If you include consequences of russian propaganda here then it is 95-99% RUS made. If Russia wanted to de-escalate conflict there and find compromise without eastern regions splitting from Ukraine - it would be very easy for them to calm protesters. In that case there would still be some problems with retarded ukrainian nationalists, but problems completely solvable solely by Ukraine, there are not really that many of them. However there is no reason to believe Russia at the moment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 17, 2014, 10:57:43 pm
I dont think they created the movement, but they have fed it, as much as maidan was fed by eu.

Either way, it is too late to stop it, the civilians have joined the fray, tons of videos showing that. Even if the first or part of the para-military groups are russian soldiers sent to create dissent, Ukrainian people followed their example and took arms, created barricades in front of local center of power, claiming control of regions.


The only way to stop it, is through internal negotiations, not international policy... Except if they send EU/US/RUS soldiers en masse going in rebelled cities and asking them to surrender. Even that isnt a sure appeasing move.
If everyone keep being stubborn, the only scenarios I see are a counter-maidan (new-new government, or losing territories to Russia again), or a Lybia - Yugoslavia - Vietnam scenario (by order of increased foreign intervention).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 17, 2014, 11:04:00 pm
Quote
The only way to stop it, is through internal negotiations, not international policy...

Exactly and government has already agreed to accept most of protesters demands, but while Russia keep feeding protests with "american mercenaries" and "chocolate chip cookie punishers that are planning to do genocide in eastern regions" these negotiations won't succeed, no matter what government will propose.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 18, 2014, 02:31:40 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 18, 2014, 02:36:12 am
It's interesting how little the media talks about the Ukraine conflict where I live, when we have a border with them, so close.

Propaganda machine is busy elsewhere, I suppose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 06:26:32 am
Quote from: serr on April 17, 2014, 11:04:00 pm
Exactly and government has already agreed to accept most of protesters demands, but while Russia keep feeding protests with "american mercenaries" and "chocolate chip cookie punishers that are planning to do genocide in eastern regions" these negotiations won't succeed, no matter what government will propose.
ukranian government did everything to calm the people) has shifted all of the legally elected mayors and government, replacing them with the oligarchs, has not shown that fully controls maydan, sent army, tanks and multiple rocket launchers on the eastern territories) Obviously the Government is fully adequate and control the situation ) even if they were afraid that Russia will bring the troops they must to understand that to Russia is harder to deal with resistance of local people than rotten army of ukraine. But after all these actions, the local population will not rise to defend his Goverment. So or everything goes as planned, or Turchinov just an idiot and just didnt know what to do as didnt know Medvedev in "war" with Georgia ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 18, 2014, 07:21:10 am
Quote
has shifted all of the legally elected mayors and government, replacing them with the oligarchs

Em.. no. They didn't shift any elected mayor. They replaced governors, who always were appointed by Kiev, they are not elected in Ukraine.  As for oligarchs - it worked perfectly in Dnipropetrovsk with Kolomoyskiy. Not good enough in Donetsk with Taruta, true, still I'm not sure if it would be better without him.

Quote
has not shown that fully controls maydan

they are not supposed to

Quote
sent army, tanks and multiple rocket launchers on the eastern territories

Well, yes, there are many questions about actions of our army, both here and in Crimea.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 07:49:00 am
Quote from: serr on April 18, 2014, 07:21:10 am
(click to show/hide)
yep governors my bad
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 08:46:00 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 06:26:32 am
ukranian government did everything to calm the people) has shifted all of the legally elected mayors and government, replacing them with the oligarchs, has not shown that fully controls maydan, sent army, tanks and multiple rocket launchers on the eastern territories) Obviously the Government is fully adequate and control the situation ) even if they were afraid that Russia will bring the troops they must to understand that to Russia is harder to deal with resistance of local people than rotten army of ukraine. But after all these actions, the local population will not rise to defend his Goverment. So or everything goes as planned, or Turchinov just an idiot and just didnt know what to do as didnt know Medvedev in "war" with Georgia ((

Please remind me, how was it handled in Chechnya, i.e. what does national russian "how to quell unrest" hanbook says? Something like... waged two wars, finally installed a freak of a local dictator, of whom every local is afraid, because he is a psycho killer, who would be prosecuted everywhere else, except in russia? 

IMO - Ukraine showed MUCH restraint, frankly - I did not see anything I would object to. I would even go as far as saying they showed TOO much restraint and it cost them unfortunately.

Also remembered - there is this town, just opposite the river from Narva in Estonia, Ivangorod Narvskiy. Its mayor requested a referendum to join Estonia. Will that be allowed? Should it be allowed?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 09:21:58 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 08:46:00 am
Please remind me, how was it handled in Chechnya, i.e. what does national russian "how to quell unrest" hanbook says? Something like... waged two wars, finally installed a freak of a local dictator, of whom every local is afraid, because he is a psycho killer, who would be prosecuted everywhere else, except in russia? 
silly to compare the situation in Ukraine and the situation in Chechnya,
it only shows your dementia and how deeply you offended by Russia / USSR


Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 08:46:00 am
IMO - Ukraine showed MUCH restraint, frankly - I did not see anything I would object to. I would even go as far as saying they showed TOO much restraint and it cost them unfortunately.
rather, they tried to intimidate people, but half-measures in such cases sometimes much worse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 09:50:19 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 09:21:58 am
silly to compare the situation in Ukraine and the situation in Chechnya,
it only shows your dementia and how deeply you offended by Russia / USSR

Dementia... right...

Why is it silly to compare Ukraine separatists and Chechnya separatists? Both want to split from their current country, the ones in Crimea got a referendum, the ones in Chechnya got a mad governor or a bullet. Its silly to compare OUTCOMES of both intents, but the premises... they are comparable to no end IMO.

And to revisit another question: there is this town, just opposite the river from Narva in Estonia, Ivangorod Narvskiy. Its mayor requested a referendum to join Estonia. Will that be allowed? Should it be allowed?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 18, 2014, 10:03:54 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 18, 2014, 02:31:40 am
(click to show/hide)
nice try visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Although, first retarded action of UA parliament after maidan was trying to pass the law of Russian language. It was like giving a candy to the Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 18, 2014, 10:24:04 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 09:50:19 am
Why is it silly to compare Ukraine separatists and Chechnya separatists? Both want to split from their current country, the ones in Crimea got a referendum, the ones in Chechnya got a mad governor or a bullet. Its silly to compare OUTCOMES of both intents, but the premises... they are comparable to no end IMO.
How dare you! Ramzan Akhmadovich Kadyrov is a Major General, PhD & Hero of the Russian Federation * . He even killed his first Russian at the age of 16!

& what did you achieved to question him?!

* Hero of the Russian Federation is the highest honorary title of the Russian Federation.

(click to show/hide)

Btw, he looks like Joffrey(long live the king!) from game of Thrones
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 18, 2014, 10:25:09 am
Quote
Although, first retarded action of UA parliament after maidan was trying to pass the law of Russian language. It was like giving a candy to the Putin.

That action is even more retarded than it seems, because that law does nothing. It was passed in 2012, according to that russian language got regional status in some regions.. and that's all, there were no changes at all. It is merely symbolic.

Sometimes it seems that some of our deputies are kgb agents or absolute morons. Or both.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 11:25:02 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 09:50:19 am
Dementia... right...

Why is it silly to compare Ukraine separatists and Chechnya separatists?
read atleast 1st chechen war in wiki but not olny "english" version but also russian (use google translate) and then ask this question to yourself
love dat part : In April 1996 the first democratically elected president of Chechnya, Dzhokhar Dudayev was killed  :P

Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 09:50:19 am
And to revisit another question: there is this town, just opposite the river from Narva in Estonia, Ivangorod Narvskiy. Its mayor requested a referendum to join Estonia. Will that be allowed? Should it be allowed?

if in moskow some retards with weapons will come to power our hero Ramzan Akhmadovich Kadyrov for example
why not  :P
btw fast googled ... he use dat trick (and he admit what dat was just a trick) twice 1st time his town got 1mil rubles next time just been ignored

Quote from: Segd on April 18, 2014, 10:24:04 am
Btw, he looks like Joffrey(long live the king!) from game of Thrones

 he blew up his own father he is cool!

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 11:53:12 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 18, 2014, 02:31:40 am
Quote from: Segd on April 18, 2014, 10:24:04 am
most opinion polls can not be trusted, so for example for Russia they ask like 1-2k of the residents in 100-200 settlements and then claim that the accuracy of the survey 70-80%
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 18, 2014, 12:01:45 pm
Both maps are quite correct. Just many people whose native language is ukrainian speak russian in everyday life.

Another thing is that in big cities there are more russian speaking people and in villages - ukrainian speaking, which could influence results depends on where those polls were made.

Still, map Tovi posted is retarded, because that division in that context imply that russian speaking majority would support Russia, which is absolutely wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 12:06:11 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 11:25:02 am
read atleast 1st chechen war in wiki but not olny "english" version but also russian (use google translate) and then ask this question to yourself
love dat part : In April 1996 the first democratically elected president of Chechnya, Dzhokhar Dudayev was killed  :P
<...>
Ok, read some, I think the relevant part from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War#Internal_conflict_in_Chechnya_and_the_Grozny-Moscow_tensions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War#Internal_conflict_in_Chechnya_and_the_Grozny-Moscow_tensions) :
However, the issue of contention was not independence from Russia: even the opposition stated there was no alternative to an international boundary separating Chechnya from Russia. In 1992, Russian newspaper Moscow News made note that, just like most of the other seceding republics except for Tatarstan, ethnic Chechens universally supported the establishment of an independent Chechen state.[12] Again, in 1995, during the heat of the First Chechen War, Khalid Delmayev, an anti-Dudayev belonging to an Ichkerian liberal coalition, stated that "Chechnya's statehood may be postponed... but cannot be avoided".[13] Opposition to Dudayev came mainly due to his domestic policy and personality: he once notoriously claimed that Russia intended to destabilize his nation by "artificially creating earthquakes" in Georgia and Armenia. This did not go off well with most Chechens, who came to view him as a national embarrassment at times (if still a patriot at others), but it did not, by any means, dismantle the determination for independence, as most Western commentators note.[14][original research?]

Moscow clandestinely supplied separatist forces with financial support, military equipment and mercenaries. Russia also suspended all civilian flights to Grozny while the aviation and border troops set up a military blockade of the republic and eventually unmarked Russian aircraft began combat operations over Chechnya. The opposition forces, who were joined by Russian troops, launched a clandestine but badly organized assault on Grozny in mid-October 1994, followed by the second, larger attack on 26–27 November 1994. Despite Russian support, both attempts were unsuccessful. In a major embarrassment for the Kremlin, Dudayev loyalists succeeded in capturing some 20 Russian Army regulars and about 50 other Russian citizens who were clandestinely hired by the Russian FSK state security organization to fight for the Provisional Council forces.[15] On 29 November, President Boris Yeltsin issued an ultimatum to all warring factions in Chechnya ordering them to disarm and to surrender. When the government in Grozny refused, Yeltsin ordered the Russian army to "restore constitutional order" by force.

I think the most relevant is the last sentence, which basically describes, how a separatist should be treated in russia:"On 29 November, President Boris Yeltsin issued an ultimatum to all warring factions in Chechnya ordering them to disarm and to surrender. When the government in Grozny refused, Yeltsin ordered the Russian army to "restore constitutional order" by force."

Then... well... what the fuck is russias problem with Ukraine government sending army to restore order?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 18, 2014, 12:33:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 08:46:00 am
Please remind me, how was it handled in Chechnya, i.e. what does national russian "how to quell unrest" hanbook says? Something like... waged two wars, finally installed a freak of a local dictator, of whom every local is afraid, because he is a psycho killer, who would be prosecuted everywhere else, except in russia?

Easy to you to talk like that when you don't have a radical muslim state in your neighborhood.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 01:10:34 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 18, 2014, 12:33:56 pm
Easy to you to talk like that when you don't have a radical muslim state in your neighborhood.

It became radical after/during the second war. When pretty much most Chechen leaders and commanders were either killed or assassinated. Russian army was brutal in Chechnya and it doesn't really surpise me people started taking radical actions.

If Chechnya was left alone and was never invaded it would not have been radical.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on April 18, 2014, 01:44:14 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 01:10:34 pm
It became radical after/during the second war. When pretty much most Chechen leaders and commanders were either killed or assassinated. Russian army was brutal in Chechnya and it doesn't really surpise me people started taking radical actions.

If Chechnya was left alone and was never invaded it would not have been radical.

lol really?

Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 09:21:58 am
silly to compare the situation in Ukraine and the situation in Chechnya,
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 18, 2014, 01:44:53 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 01:10:34 pm
It became radical after/during the second war. When pretty much most Chechen leaders and commanders were either killed or assassinated. Russian army was brutal in Chechnya and it doesn't really surpise me people started taking radical actions.

If Chechnya was left alone and was never invaded it would not have been radical.

Allahu Akbar.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 18, 2014, 01:50:33 pm
Ukraine decided to simplify the border crossing for citizens of Russia, during the Easter holidays. Previously (a week ago) was banned entry to the territory of Ukraine, citizens of Russia males in the age of from 18 till 55 years and women from the Crimea in the age from 18 till 35 years. Citizens of Ukraine (male) for almost a month not allowed from Ukraine to Russia. Ukrainian border guards are planted men from the train. Say, "You need to Ukraine". Men had to cross the border on foot. But it's long and in many places it is dangerous - wide and deep moat dug already. You can get dirty or even injury. Simple civil people are not trained as officers of special services.
Cancel stupid security measures at the Russian-Ukrainian border (which neither when the "de facto" did not exist) - a good trend. Perhaps someone put not much of a brain in the skull crazy Amateurs from Kiev.
It is very good that Ukraine, Belarus and Russia have so many holidays and weekends in the spring.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 18, 2014, 01:52:46 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 01:10:34 pm
If Chechnya was left alone and was never invaded it would not have been radical.

How can you invade your own country federal subject? At least thats an argument I share with Kuujis: sending police/army on your own soil is legitimate. It is against what it is used and how it is used that is up to debate.


Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 01:10:34 pm
It became radical after/during the second war. When pretty much most Chechen leaders and commanders were either killed or assassinated. Russian army was brutal in Chechnya and it doesn't really surpise me people started taking radical actions.

Non-muslim non-Chechen civilians chased/killed between 1991 and 1994 will disagree with you. Chechen undeclared civil war of discrimination and purification didnt need any foreign intervention to start. Russia was too busy licking his paws to do anything.
Base radicalism of Chechen military leaders is undeniable...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 18, 2014, 02:06:52 pm
You wish to attach the Chechen Republic to Ukraine? Why? In Ukraine for many miners. Miners - is a huge power. It's a headache for many years, not only for Ukraine. In Poland, in England, in Russia - miners very big problem for many governments.  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 02:11:11 pm
Quote from: Yarl on April 18, 2014, 01:44:14 pm
lol really?

The first presidents Dzhokhar Dudayev, Aslan Maskhadov as an example were not radical. And they were democratically elected. The only problem they had was that after the first war which left the country in ruins, the warlords didn't want to dissmiss their armies which left the presidents powerless. Some of these warlords were more radical while others were not. If there was no Russian invasion of Chechnya and complete destruciton of the country, these warlords would not have been as powerful.

And then Russia invades again starting the second invasion, which makes the resistance even more radical. Tends to happen when you brutally opress a people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 03:54:36 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 02:11:11 pm
The first presidents Dzhokhar Dudayev, Aslan Maskhadov as an example were not radical. And they were democratically elected. The only problem they had was that after the first war which left the country in ruins, the warlords didn't want to dissmiss their armies which left the presidents powerless. Some of these warlords were more radical while others were not. If there was no Russian invasion of Chechnya and complete destruciton of the country, these warlords would not have been as powerful.

And then Russia invades again starting the second invasion, which makes the resistance even more radical. Tends to happen when you brutally opress a people.
where was 3 happy years as independent democratic country from 1991-1994 read about dat  ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 04:03:32 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 03:54:36 pm
where was 3 happy years as independent democratic country from 1991-1994 read about dat  ^^

Read about countries like Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, South Sudan... Whatever. Everyone does it in independence wars. Doesn't make it right or them more radical than the other countries. Religious radicalism came later, inspired by Russian war crimes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 04:10:13 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 04:03:32 pm
Read about countries like Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, South Sudan... Whatever. Everyone does it in independence wars. Doesn't make it right or them more radical than the other countries. Religious radicalism came later, inspired by Russian war crimes.
where u from?


Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 04:03:32 pm
Religious radicalism came later, inspired by Russian war crimes.

after which date, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 04:22:45 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 04:10:13 pm
where u from?


after which date, in your opinion?

I am born and live in Sweden but I am from Kosovo. I have relatives in Serbia, Kosovo, Croatia and Bosnia.

I would say that the first war was more nationalistic than anything. In the second one when the moderate leadership died out the resistance became more and more extreme with time. Youngsters and moderate people became religiously radicalized during the wars due to warcrimes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 04:33:18 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on April 18, 2014, 04:22:45 pm
I am born and live in Sweden but I am from Kosovo. I have relatives in Serbia, Kosovo, Croatia and Bosnia.

I would say that the first war was more nationalistic than anything. In the second one when the moderate leadership died out the resistance became more and more extreme with time. Youngsters and moderate people became religiously radicalized during the wars due to warcrimes.

There is this saying Basnak, "don't argue with an idiot. It will bring you down to his level, where he will beat you with experience". Vovka has info given to him by the fair and square russian channels, you are brainwashed westerner, he is right (or funny "lol" guy with a witty remark when he can't find politically approved answer), and the best thing he can do is try to hide behind irony/lols, because given the slightest chance russian youghts run from that country to create somehing for themselves in the rotten west  :|

Unless you are russian ofc, then you have full right to apply what ever laws you what in whatever other country you want when ever putler says "its okay".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 04:38:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 04:33:18 pm
There is this saying Basnak, "don't argue with an idiot. It will bring you down to his level, where he will beat you with experience". Vovka has info given to him by the fair and square russian channels, you are brainwashed westerner, he is right (or funny "lol" guy with a witty remark when he can't find politically approved answer), and the best thing he can do is try to hide behind irony/lols, because given the slightest chance russian youghts run from that country to create somehing for themselves in the rotten west  :|

Unless you are russian ofc, then you have full right to apply what ever laws you what in whatever other country you want when ever putler says "its okay".
  i know it from friends of my family who migrate from here in 92 years... but im sure all of them who got killed just run away to the west and ll dat history about their death just propaganda
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on April 18, 2014, 04:42:27 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 04:33:18 pm
Vovka has info given to him by the fair and square russian channels.
Vovka  can get information about Chechen war from people who took part on this war. Even in Druzhina we have some guys.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 05:06:47 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 04:38:15 pm
  i know it from friends of my family who migrate from here in 92 years... but im sure all of them who got killed just run away to the west and ll dat history about their death just propaganda
Good for you. Changes nothing.

Quote from: Yarl on April 18, 2014, 04:42:27 pm
Vovka  can get information about Chechen war from people who took part on this war. Even in Druzhina we have some guys.
And? Winner side (if it can be called as such, since contrary to popular oppinion - there are no winners in war, only survivors), who committed I would say VERY comparable amount of atrocities as the same chechens they were fighting against are a reputable source of unbiased info? Only in russia.

In any case - it changes nothing. There was a state, which wanted independence. The solution was to sent in army against the separatists and blow it up sky high. Even the "bad joke" about "sending in strategic bombers for some carpet bombing experience".Now that Ukraine does that - its suddenly "much bad, no morals, we have to stop it, omg russian master race in danger, US GMO troops on ground". Seriously?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 05:14:26 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 05:06:47 pm
Good for you. Changes nothing.
And? Winner side (if it can be called as such, since contrary to popular oppinion - there are no winners in war, only survivors), who committed I would say VERY comparable amount of atrocities as the same chechens they were fighting against are a reputable source of unbiased info? Only in russia.

In any case - it changes nothing. There was a state, which wanted independence. The solution was to sent in army against the separatists and blow it up sky high. Even the "bad joke" about "sending in strategic bombers for some carpet bombing experience".Now that Ukraine does that - its suddenly "much bad, no morals, we have to stop it, omg russian master race in danger, US GMO troops on ground". Seriously?

they WAS independent but it turns bad and for local people and for near countries
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 18, 2014, 05:44:09 pm
Quote from: Yarl on April 18, 2014, 04:42:27 pm
Vovka  can get information about Chechen war from people who took part on this war. Even in Druzhina we have some guys.
Just like you would get very accurate and unbiased information about WW2 from Nazis in the SS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 05:49:05 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 18, 2014, 05:44:09 pm
Just like you would get very accurate and unbiased information about WW2 from Nazis in the SS.
share it while we waiting interesting shit from ukrain  :P iam shure where a lot chocolate chip cookies among ur friends XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 06:27:15 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 05:14:26 pm
they WAS independent but it turns bad and for local people and for near countries

That is a very interesting oppinion. Did you invade... oh... i don't know... syria? Things are bad there too. Or maybe some random central African nation? You know... because its became bad for neighboring countries? Also - didn't you READ what Boris Yalcin ordered army to do? "RESTORE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER", not "conquer problematic neighbor, because... whatever".

So I ask you again - ordering troops to "restore constitutional order" in russia is ok, allowed, moral and - in retrospective - probably a STUPID move, but when Ukraine tries to do that (and if I may add - in a SERIOUSLY reserved fashion, without a characteristic russian bloodbath...) then its "much bad, no morals, we have to stop it, omg russian master race in danger, US GMO troops on ground". Or is it that the bloodbath is obligatory tradition and is missing and that is why russian army is needed there?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 18, 2014, 06:30:45 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 05:49:05 pm
share it while we waiting interesting shit from ukrain  :P iam shure where a lot chocolate chip cookies among ur friends XD
I wonder if you even realize that none of your jokes are funny. At all. Humor takes some intelligence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 18, 2014, 06:35:46 pm
I think they are funny  :D

You can get more information from a joke than a stoic argument.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 06:50:11 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 18, 2014, 06:30:45 pm
I wonder if you even realize that none of your jokes are funny. At all. Humor takes some intelligence.
idk if my jokes do not bring you joy  :P

Quote from: Butan on April 18, 2014, 06:35:46 pm
I think they are funny  :D
You can get more information from a joke than a stoic argument.
Do not laugh at my dementia (it is immoral! better to send me money for treatment, say 5k dollars

Quote from: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 06:27:15 pm

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 18, 2014, 06:58:58 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 04:38:15 pm
  i know it from friends of my family who migrate from here in 92 years... but im sure all of them who got killed just run away to the west and ll dat history about their death just propaganda

Of course it's propaganda, just like stories of jews being assaulted in europe. Evidence has been found that they usually mutilate themselves threaten themselves through phone calls and letters.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 18, 2014, 07:08:03 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 18, 2014, 06:35:46 pm
I think they are funny  :D

You can get more information from a joke than a stoic argument.
So tell me what information you got out of his joke? I await with bated breath...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 18, 2014, 08:05:56 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 18, 2014, 07:08:03 pm
So tell me what information you got out of his joke? I await with bated breath...
Breathe, you have to breathe! Everyone understands that your brain oxygen is not needed. Your little sick brain died long ago. But if you will die, Kuujis will say that the Pro-Russian forces have committed insidious murder of peaceful person.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 18, 2014, 08:12:48 pm
I can only refer to my post on page 177.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on April 18, 2014, 08:17:37 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 18, 2014, 10:03:54 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

worst lie ever... posted by the person who probably wasnt in ukraine.
probably most part of ukraine is purple.
surprised when noticed my region with ukrainian-speaking majority. from the USSR somehow russian language became a language of large cities but ukrainian is a language of minor and provincial towns and villages ofcourse.
I really cant get why does ukraine has any questions about official languages because almost everyone know both languages. personally I dont know any single ethnic ukrainian who know only one of those languages... as in real life as in internet. the question is only in preferences... I know so few people who speak ukrainian in their daily life.... and its a region of ukrainian language domination?
the trouble with ukrainian language is his history. proffesional ukrainian language is quite poor. ofcourse it was a bit upgraded with years of independence... upgraded by foreign words. some of them are just stolen from other languages, some of them are broken russian words. okay, so we've got something like valid official ukrainian language which is still nothing if use it to scientific documents.
so here is only 2 ways.
1)set russian to the country language level. well seems to be huge waste of money because not much will be changed from it, its already regional language.
2)keep the only one ukrainian as country language. so keep the minor language of SLAVE nation as an official one.
both of them are wrong. I think russian and ukrainian had to be equal from the independence but now its too late to change anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 18, 2014, 08:45:03 pm
Dark Blade, as I posted above, this map shows regions where people consider ukrainian to be their native language, not where majority is ukrainian speaking, that's different things and considering that I'd say the map is quite accurate.

And yes, you live in quite big city, while ukrainian is mostly used in small towns and villages.

I won't argue about qualities of ukrainian language, that's pointless.
Personally I don't really see any problems with language, the whole language problem was simply made up by asshole politicians(from both sides) who wanted to increase their ratings.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 18, 2014, 10:21:21 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 18, 2014, 06:50:11 pm
<...>
(click to show/hide)

I rest my case.  Apart from "OMFG ITS NOT THE SAME I WAS TOLD SO BY <insert_random_gibberish>" - only witty jokes are available as explanations. Le wat le Butan lewould lelearn from le-dis, I WONDER! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 18, 2014, 10:36:38 pm
What's witty about Vovka's "jokes"?

I mean seriously; I'm all for witty jokes and well-used sarcasm. The Russian retardation in this thread annoys me only because they keep "joking" yet their "jokes" are pre-school level, if that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 18, 2014, 11:04:39 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 18, 2014, 10:36:38 pm
What's witty about Vovka's "jokes"?

I mean seriously; I'm all for witty jokes and well-used sarcasm. The Russian retardation in this thread annoys me only because they keep "joking" yet their "jokes" are pre-school level, if that.

You mean the pre-school level where a person pretend something funny is not, or something true is not, because you dont agree with the person itself?  :wink:  we will be here when you grow out of your tough boy syndrom Xant, until then...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 18, 2014, 11:09:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 18, 2014, 10:36:38 pm
What's witty about Vovka's "jokes"?

I mean seriously; I'm all for witty jokes and well-used sarcasm. The Russian retardation in this thread annoys me only because they keep "joking" yet their "jokes" are pre-school level, if that.
Russian retardation sounds almost like Russian Federation. Haha. Isn't that funny? I think it's funny, and so should you.
Because nothing about Russia is retarded, barbarian.  :evil:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 18, 2014, 11:26:51 pm
Quote from: Macropus on April 18, 2014, 11:09:24 pm
Russian retardation sounds almost like Russian Federation. Haha. Isn't that funny? I think it's funny, and so should you.
Because nothing about Russia is retarded, barbarian.  :evil:
I did think that was funny, and noticed it after the fact myself!

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 19, 2014, 12:09:48 am
so much use of the word retarded

do you know it comes from a french word: retard which means delay, retardé means delayed, etc

i guess the logic behind the word is that someone retarded is someone mentally delayed, someone lagging behind

All that to say that you should all speak French instead of QQing about whatever language is spoken in whatever region because in the end you're just speaking some international french instead, even worse than those illiterates from quebec
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 19, 2014, 12:43:51 am
Civil War started !!!!

...in USA  :lol:

http://ecowatch.com/2014/04/15/blm-battle-at-bundy-ranch/
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/bundy-ranch-constitutional-sheriffs-oath-keepers
http://nationalreport.net/multiple-militia-members-arrested-bundy-ranch-charged-domestic-terrorism/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 19, 2014, 01:07:56 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 19, 2014, 12:43:51 am
Civil War started !!!!

...in USA  :lol:

http://ecowatch.com/2014/04/15/blm-battle-at-bundy-ranch/
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/bundy-ranch-constitutional-sheriffs-oath-keepers
http://nationalreport.net/multiple-militia-members-arrested-bundy-ranch-charged-domestic-terrorism/

Here, read some. I think you'd love them http://listverse.com/2013/09/15/10-more-laughable-conspiracy-theories/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2014, 12:17:44 pm

"We are peaceful people"

my ass
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 19, 2014, 06:15:20 pm
Thanks to Geneva meeting, Pravy Sektor will be disarmed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 19, 2014, 07:03:03 pm
Ukrainian political leaders are now negotiating with Russia on the transfer of Donbass. Donbass offer to transfer to Russia (without Russian invasion, without armed conflicts) in exchange for real money (gas, debts, +) and some economic preferences.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2014, 07:10:00 pm
So russia is trying some shady Diplo-Annex strategy now?

Dem badboy points must hurt
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 19, 2014, 07:16:40 pm
Can I buy a part of Ukraine and create my own state ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 19, 2014, 07:17:10 pm
Funny how Putin is giving medals to the Russian soldiers who took part in the operation in Crimea. Even though there were no Russian soldiers there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 19, 2014, 07:22:12 pm
 :P

Didn't he admit the obvious already, though?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 19, 2014, 07:22:42 pm
I'd like to see Obama admiting the destabilization of Ukraine with the same sincerity. But real gangsters never avow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 19, 2014, 08:10:38 pm
Lol, shut up Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 19, 2014, 08:12:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 19, 2014, 07:17:10 pm
Funny how Putin is giving medals to the Russian soldiers who took part in the operation in Crimea. Even though there were no Russian soldiers there.

Russian military bases/ports in Crimea included the authorization to have as much as 25 000 soldiers and various ships/tanks/planes on the Crimean territory, according to an agreement between Russia and Ukraine. The slight difference is, Russian soldiers who were already there, and Ukrainian militia who formed on the spot along the Ukraine crisis itself. Whether or not both groups joined hands and took part in the insurrection, I will let you form your unbiased opinion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 19, 2014, 09:07:06 pm
Tovi has the same feelings towards Putin (Putler) that the natzee skinheads have towards H1tler.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 19, 2014, 10:42:44 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 19, 2014, 08:12:24 pm
Russian military bases/ports in Crimea included the authorization to have as much as 25 000 soldiers and various ships/tanks/planes on the Crimean territory, according to an agreement between Russia and Ukraine. The slight difference is, Russian soldiers who were already there, and Ukrainian militia who formed on the spot along the Ukraine crisis itself. Whether or not both groups joined hands and took part in the insurrection, I will let you form your unbiased opinion.
What are you talking about, retard?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 19, 2014, 11:50:12 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 19, 2014, 07:17:10 pm
[...] there were no Russian soldiers there.

Quote from: Butan on April 19, 2014, 08:12:24 pm
Russian soldiers [...] were already there


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 19, 2014, 11:59:09 pm
Quote from: Christo on April 19, 2014, 07:10:00 pm
So russia is trying some shady Diplo-Annex strategy now?

Dem badboy points must hurt

Diplo-Annex without monarchies, nah.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 20, 2014, 12:50:34 am
Quote from: Butan on April 19, 2014, 11:50:12 pm

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You really have to be mentally challenged to not understand what I said.

And you are. So you have an excuse, and a good one at that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 20, 2014, 09:16:30 am
Quote from: Xant on April 20, 2014, 12:50:34 am
You really have to be mentally challenged to not understand what I said.

And you are. So you have an excuse, and a good one at that.
OR - the level of nonsense he said is so high, that he cannot be bothered to come back and explain it  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 20, 2014, 10:00:46 am
By now, I tend to ignore Butan's posts as much as Tovi's. They sure ain't far apart from each other.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 20, 2014, 01:27:31 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 19, 2014, 09:07:06 pm
Tovi has the same feelings towards Putin (Putler) that the natzee skinheads have towards H1tler.

+1 Godwin Point

I see Putin as a real leader defending his country interests. Wich is very different from my own president, Hollande, who betray his people constantly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 20, 2014, 01:38:47 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 20, 2014, 01:27:31 pm
+1 Godwin Point


Would be interesting to count the godwin points per posters in this thread  :lol: 



Non-retarted reaction to simple fact statement by the free people of cRPG forum:

Quote from: Xant on April 20, 2014, 12:50:34 am
You really have to be mentally challenged.

Quote from: Kuujis on April 20, 2014, 09:16:30 am
level of nonsense he said is so high

Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2014, 10:00:46 am
By now, I tend to ignore Butan's posts


Last attempt at re-informing the dis-informed : garrisoned russian soldiers..... in russian bases in Crimea.....were already there..... before maidan.....

Take a deep breath, immerse yourself in the new information, and think about the possible implications (which doesnt all go toward innocenting Russia, mind you).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 20, 2014, 02:27:50 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 01:38:47 pm
Last attempt at re-informing the dis-informed : garrisoned russian soldiers..... in russian bases in Crimea.....were already there..... before maidan.....

Take a deep breath, immerse yourself in the new information, and think about the possible implications (which doesnt all go toward innocenting Russia, mind you).

The problem is that you state information that everyone here already knows (that Russia was allowed 25000 military personel in Crimea Russian bases), hence the people you are talking with believe that your point is not this known information but that you interpret this information in some way and use this interpretation as an argument, which they don't agree with.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 20, 2014, 02:54:30 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 20, 2014, 01:27:31 pm
+1 Godwin Point

I see Putin as a real leader defending his country interests. Wich is very different from my own president, Hollande, who betray his people constantly.

Y u no move to USSR 2.0 Russia and great leader Putler da Führer?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 20, 2014, 02:59:04 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 01:38:47 pm

Would be interesting to count the godwin points per posters in this thread  :lol: 



Non-retarted reaction to simple fact statement by the free people of cRPG forum:


Last attempt at re-informing the dis-informed : garrisoned russian soldiers..... in russian bases in Crimea.....were already there..... before maidan.....
No fucking shit? And why are you saying that? I wasn't talking about that, you idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 20, 2014, 04:24:03 pm
It's just an invastion, why do you have to be mad?  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 20, 2014, 08:04:48 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 01:38:47 pm
Last attempt at re-informing the dis-informed : garrisoned russian soldiers..... in russian bases in Crimea.....were already there..... before maidan.....

Take a deep breath, immerse yourself in the new information, and think about the possible implications (which doesnt all go toward innocenting Russia, mind you).
OK, lets dissect this:
1. Before the crisis there were around 10k troops there.
2. They were to stay STRICTLY in the base designated. Didn't happen.
3. ANY and all movements were to be sanctioned by Ukraine defence ministry. Didn't happen. AND putler can bark all he wants - defence ministry WAS available for contact and did NOT grant the right for movements.
4. The forces were INCREASED to 25k (or roughly that) - again - possible, but ONLY with explicit agreement by Ukraine.

So le hipster contrarian extraordinaire - what was is SPECIFICALLY, that you wanted to prove with your so called "point" ? :rolleyes:

P.S. Numbers taken from my memory/ass - so feel free to correct me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 20, 2014, 08:05:07 pm
Ironically enough, the retards who insult people who support Putin, are the ones who are on a witch hunt against "secret neo nazees" at this forum.  :lol:  , clearly shows who`s the idiot/moron/stupid/lower iq.
 
I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 20, 2014, 08:07:02 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 20, 2014, 08:05:07 pm
Ironically enough, the retards who insult people who support Putin, are the ones who are on a witch hunt against "secret neo nazees" at this forum.  :lol:  , clearly shows who`s the idiot/moron/stupid/lower iq.
 
I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.
I'm sorry, did you miss your last election? Do you have 146% of voting populace? Do you get fucked in the ass by putlers, who you can choose NOT to elect next time?

Also - clean up your fucking corruption and tax avoidance problems (and no, those are NOT government made, those are tolerated and caused daily by "citizens"), then come barking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 20, 2014, 08:10:33 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 20, 2014, 08:07:02 pm
Also - clean up your fucking corruption and tax avoidance problems (and no, those are NOT government made, those are tolerated and caused daily by "citizens"), then come barking.

Ironically enough, AGAIN, the biggest corruption scandal in Greece, was made by Germans, and Siemens to be more precise.

Sure, Greeks may tax evade and be corrupted, but it`s not like Germans are saints  :rolleyes:

Here, educate yourself before you speak any more bullshit : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 20, 2014, 08:15:30 pm
Hold on, I just remembered another scandal made by the saints of taxing!!!


http://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-the-submarine-deals-that-helped-sink-greece-.html

Quote
Much of the equipment comes from Germany, the country that has had to shoulder most of the burden of bailing out Greece and has been loudest in condemning Athens for living beyond its means. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has admonished the Greek government "to do its homework" on debt reduction.


THANK YOU MERKEL, FOR LENDING US MONEY, WITH HIGH INTEREST, SO WE CAN BUY BROKEN SUBMARINES FROM YOUR COUNTRY!!!  :lol:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis


and in case you are dumb enough to understand simple facts.

Germany/France loan money to Greece with high interest ---> Greece buys weapons from Germany and France.

Muppets everywhere..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 20, 2014, 08:54:12 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 20, 2014, 08:58:07 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 20, 2014, 08:05:07 pm
I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on April 20, 2014, 09:11:20 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2014, 08:54:12 pm
(click to show/hide)

Read again my posts please, I`m not trying to make only the Germans bad.

But claiming that ONLY Greece is the corrupted country of EU, is retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 20, 2014, 09:43:42 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 20, 2014, 08:04:48 pm
OK, lets dissect this:
1. Before the crisis there were around 10k troops there.
2. They were to stay STRICTLY in the base designated. Didn't happen.
3. ANY and all movements were to be sanctioned by Ukraine defence ministry. Didn't happen. AND putler can bark all he wants - defence ministry WAS available for contact and did NOT grant the right for movements.
4. The forces were INCREASED to 25k (or roughly that) - again - possible, but ONLY with explicit agreement by Ukraine.


Thats already a far more interesting response to my statement than the usual name calling, thanks for your input.

On that topic:
Russian troops inside Crimea was at 15k at the peak of Crimean crisis. 25k was the maximum allowed. They never exceeded it.


I would be interested in finding information on what was the exact legal aspects of the agreement between Ukraine and Russian:
- increase/decrease of garrisoned troops to be validated by the president of Ukraine? (remember, maidan removed the people of power in Ukraine)
- to be strictly garrisoned in the bases themselves, forbidden to move outside? How do they eat, drills and move from barracks to ports, in helicopters? And how do you know if they moved out or not?

Then if they really increased the troops without legal accord, and they moved out of their boundaries in Crimea, you still have to prove the final point : did they actually participate in the Crimean crisis?
The mainstream agreed on fact that "Russian did it 100%" is only the extreme opposite bullshit than "Russian did nothing, 100% innocent".

Sorry to weight you down with fact-checking so much, I would really enjoy having a neutral debate somewhere down this thread...




What is also interesting, is how when Crimean crisis started, all EU/US media titled "Russia is invading Crimea with troops" with footage of their men and equipment, even though those soldiers were garrisoned in Crimea because they have military bases under contract with Ukraine, thus most of them were already there.


One of the many non-cookie free world information laying around that will survive thanks to some people and their clever shortcuts with the truth.
Its far harder to prove that russian garrison participated in the crimean crisis than just going with the crowd and spouting things about the warmongering state of Russia and their fascist people, I will concede you this.

(click to show/hide)



Quick witty joke: (Xant not allowed!)

EU french media on maidan: brave citizen fight peacefully to overthrow corrupt and represive ukraine government, to form new legitimate one.

EU french media on eastern ukraine: ukraine government sending soldiers to retake controls of the cities that fell to the pro-kremlin terrorists.


Word for word  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 20, 2014, 09:56:30 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 20, 2014, 01:27:31 pm
+1 Godwin Point

I see Putin as a real leader defending his country interests. Wich is very different from my own president, Hollande, who betray his people constantly.

Putin doesnt defend his country's interest. His defending his own and his corrupt buddies. Either his trying to put his own name on the map or rebuild an old empire that never really worked to begin with. Could be both. Kremlin doesnt give a single fuck about its people that live in foreign nations. It only takes advantage of them. Putins way of defending his country's interest is calling dibs on squarekilometers, which doesnt really do much good to anybody exept his superrich drinkingbuddies and they dont do jack for the country. They put it all in their pockets and use that money to fund businesses that are located in other countries.

They are even making a law that russians cant blog shit about Russia, or they get fined. Id like to see Hollande being this bad. Everybody is hating their country's primeministers and calling them traitors. Yours is no different. Its been hard times for EU and the primeministers are the ones taking the public beating.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 20, 2014, 10:00:19 pm
Butan, what are talking about?

Putin already confirmed that russian troops were capturing objects and blocking ukrainian military bases in Crimea to let fair referendum happen. There's nothing to argue about.

So yes, russian did it 100%, confirmed by Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 20, 2014, 10:06:49 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 20, 2014, 09:56:30 pm
They are even making a law that russians cant blog shit about Russia, or they get fined.

I've also heard that russian schools are being converted in anti-terrorist cells and metal detector - x-ray - armed guards - walls + barbed wires to be added to all of them to make sure all kids are not inside enemy.
I've also heard russian are preparing invasion and heating up missile systems, with infrared mapping as proof.
I've also heard that russian are organizing trips to Ukraine to protest in the cities and that near to no native are participating.


If its not to be put in the "fake" category, I think yours and my informations still need some non-EU refining.


Quote from: serr on April 20, 2014, 10:00:19 pm
Butan, what are talking about?

Putin already confirmed that russian troops were capturing objects and blocking ukrainian military bases in Crimea to let fair referendum happen. There's nothing to argue about.

So yes, russian did it 100%, confirmed by Putin.


Did he now? And how has he explained that?

Also, do you think they were the only ones bearing uniforms and arms in Crimea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 20, 2014, 10:09:07 pm
Quote
What is also interesting, is how when Crimean crisis started, all EU/US media titled "Russia is invading Crimea with troops" with footage of their men and equipment, even though those soldiers were garrisoned in Crimea because they have military bases under contract with Ukraine, thus most of them were already there.

Step 1: Maidan wins, Yanukovich flee to Russia
Step 2: Sevastopol refuse to recognize new rulers, elect mayor on rally, which they weren't allowed to do by contsitution, plus there were no real elections, he was basically appointed on rally by ~10k that were there. In addition to that new mayor was citizen of Russia.
Step 3: Leaders of maidan try to negotiate, without any results
Step 4: Russian troops captures administrative buildings, blocks ukrainian military bases
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 20, 2014, 10:13:10 pm
Quote
Did he now? And how has he explained that?

Yes, he did, 3 or 4 days ago. Explanations - as I already said, to let fair referendum happen.

Quote
Also, do you think they were the only ones bearing uniforms and arms in Crimea?

Of course not, there was crimean self-defence, half consisted of former berkut and russians(not russian troops - cossacks and other russian patriots).

Quote
I've also heard that russian are organizing trips to Ukraine to protest in the cities and that near to no native are participating.

There are numerous proofs that among protesters there are really a lot of russians. Also was confirmed by russian foreign minister. Part about "little to no native" is wrong of course, I don't know ratio of russian/native protesters, but obviously signficant part of them are russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 20, 2014, 10:26:28 pm
 :oops:


Must have been  in his long public interview, I still didnt listen to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 20, 2014, 10:47:16 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 10:26:28 pm
:oops:


Must have been  in his long public interview, I still didnt listen to it.
Yeah, better to post retarded shit on forums about it pretending to know what's happening rather than actually look it up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 20, 2014, 10:53:28 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 20, 2014, 08:05:07 pm
Ironically enough, the retards who insult people who support Putin, are the ones who are on a witch hunt against "secret neo nazees" at this forum.  :lol:  , clearly shows who`s the idiot/moron/stupid/lower iq.
 
I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.

Panos, you quite surprise me. Looks like you've completely messed up things in your head. With each post like that you move backwards in evolutionary scale.
(click to show/hide)
If you had a leader of your nation like Putin, then Greece would be even worse 3rd world country than Russia. Because unlike Russia the only oil Greece can sell is an olive oil.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 20, 2014, 11:08:21 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 20, 2014, 08:15:30 pm
Hold on, I just remembered another scandal made by the saints of taxing!!!


http://www.lepointinternational.com/it/politica/europa/550-the-submarine-deals-that-helped-sink-greece-.html


THANK YOU MERKEL, FOR LENDING US MONEY, WITH HIGH INTEREST, SO WE CAN BUY BROKEN SUBMARINES FROM YOUR COUNTRY!!!  :lol:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis


and in case you are dumb enough to understand simple facts.

Germany/France loan money to Greece with high interest ---> Greece buys weapons from Germany and France.

Muppets everywhere..

You should probably look at the astronomical defense spending before 2008 and ask yourself why did Greece feel the need to do that instead of sanitizing its budget while it had the opportunity. Oh and by the way, tensions with Turkey were on the rise back then.

Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 09:43:42 pm
Quick witty joke: (Xant not allowed!)

EU french media on maidan: brave citizen fight peacefully to overthrow corrupt and represive ukraine government, to form new legitimate one.

EU french media on eastern ukraine: ukraine government sending soldiers to retake controls of the cities that fell to the pro-kremlin terrorists.


Word for word  :lol:

No that's not word for word. Maidan happened and Yanukovich took a trip to Russia on his own. Maybe he was feeling his mansion had not enough guards to be safe. Everybody but him stayed. That's not a coup, not even a revolution.

Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 10:06:49 pm
I've also heard that russian schools are being converted in anti-terrorist cells and metal detector - x-ray - armed guards - walls + barbed wires to be added to all of them to make sure all kids are not inside enemy.
I've also heard russian are preparing invasion and heating up missile systems, with infrared mapping as proof.
I've also heard that russian are organizing trips to Ukraine to protest in the cities and that near to no native are participating.


If its not to be put in the "fake" category, I think yours and my informations still need some non-EU refining.

Let's just throw our critical thinking out of the window and call every bit of information as equally dubious, right ?

Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on April 20, 2014, 08:05:07 pm
Ironically enough, the retards who insult people who support Putin, are the ones who are on a witch hunt against "secret neo nazees" at this forum.  :lol:  , clearly shows who`s the idiot/moron/stupid/lower iq.
 
I`d take Putin as a leader of my nation, every fucking day of the week. But since I am unlucky enough to be "ruled" by one of Merkel`s muppets, I can only feel jealous of Russian people.

Where's the irony ? Fascists and nationalists together, makes sense to me, and history seems to agree.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 20, 2014, 11:44:47 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 20, 2014, 10:47:16 pm
Yeah, better to post retarded shit on forums about it pretending to know what's happening rather than actually look it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
Dont hesitate to look into linked articles, you may learn a lot on yourself :D

Quote from: Kafein on April 20, 2014, 11:08:21 pm
Let's just throw our critical thinking out of the window and call every bit of information as equally dubious, right ?

In this war of propaganda, critical thinking is presuming the bits of information are dubious.

If you're asking if they are "equally" dubious, you have already fell into it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 02:04:11 am
The new government in Ukraine, elected on the Maidan, already 2 months. I have a question: Why not declared impeachment to the President? No reason? There are many legal ways to find a reason for impeachment. Ukraine does not need the presence of a legitimate leader? Ukraine does not need the presence of a legitimate government?
The USA has approved granting of the loan Ukraine. But who today can issue loans? Who will sign the paper from the Ukrainian side? "The government of Maidan"? "De jure", the Bank may grant credit only to the government of Yanukovych. Any lawyer will argue that the guarantee (from the USA) do not apply to the loans which are issued by any Bank to the government Turchynov... Ukraine does not need loans?
May be someone benefits from the absence of a legitimate government in Ukraine? Later it will be possible to explain everything "not legitimate" activities and "not legitimate" orders, artists (from the government and governors of Ukraine) who " illegally usurped power".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 21, 2014, 05:25:43 am
Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 11:44:47 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
Dont hesitate to look into linked articles, you may learn a lot on yourself :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability
Dont hesitate to look into linked articles, you may learn a lot on yourself :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 21, 2014, 08:45:54 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 02:04:11 am
The new government in Ukraine, elected on the Maidan, already 2 months. I have a question: Why not declared impeachment to the President? No reason? There are many legal ways to find a reason for impeachment. Ukraine does not need the presence of a legitimate leader? Ukraine does not need the presence of a legitimate government?
The USA has approved granting of the loan Ukraine. But who today can issue loans? Who will sign the paper from the Ukrainian side? "The government of Maidan"? "De jure", the Bank may grant credit only to the government of Yanukovych. Any lawyer will argue that the guarantee (from the USA) do not apply to the loans which are issued by any Bank to the government Turchynov... Ukraine does not need loans?
May be someone benefits from the absence of a legitimate government in Ukraine? Later it will be possible to explain everything "not legitimate" activities and "not legitimate" orders, artists (from the government and governors of Ukraine) who " illegally usurped power".

USA has dealt with many illegitime goverments, despots and criminals why not with peoples republic or anarchits?

Legitimacy is judged by the people of the country or is legitimacy just another fancy word like "terrorist collaboration" or "capitalist greed" or "communist complot" or "holy war" or "axis of evil"???

Free your mind.

EDIT:
Legitimacy is defined by rules. Unfortunatly there are various rulesets. Democratic legitimacy? Succession legitimacy? Historical legitimacy? Habitual legitimacy? Majoritys Legitimacy? Legitimacy of superior power? Religious legitimacy? Is Putins goverment really legitim? Is americas goverment really legitim? Is chechenias goverment really legitim? Is Erdogans goverment legitim? China?? Is the Dalai Lama legitim? Will egypts goverment be legitim? Is vatikans goverment really legitim? Is the lion legitim king of animals? Ask different people get different answers. Peoples revolution is the most legitim answer to failing goverment in my opinion. Becouse in my opinion the government should work for the people and not the other way around.

EDIT EDIT:
Its legitim when Putin speaks for himself, that he does not respect peoples revolution in ukraine. Its his opinion.

Its not legitim when he says: "Ucrains goverment is not legitim." becouse he cant generalize his opinion as being true for others.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:
For money a good lawyer can make any illegimate thing legitim or other way round. Now rate the worth of legitimacy. And then rate the worth of a lawyer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 09:54:03 am
Quote from: Eugen on April 21, 2014, 08:45:54 am
USA has dealt with many illegitime goverments, despots and criminals why not with peoples republic or anarchits?
Legitimacy is judged by the people of the country or is legitimacy just another fancy word like "terrorist collaboration" or "capitalist greed" or "communist complot" or "holy war" or "axis of evil"???
Free your mind.
EDIT:
Legitimacy is defined by rules. Unfortunatly there are various rulesets. Democratic legitimacy? Succession legitimacy? Historical legitimacy? Habitual legitimacy? Majoritys Legitimacy? Legitimacy of superior power? Religious legitimacy? Is Putins goverment really legitim? Is americas goverment really legitim? Is chechenias goverment really legitim? Is Erdogans goverment legitim? China?? Is the Dalai Lama legitim? Will egypts goverment be legitim? Is vatikans goverment really legitim? Is the lion legitim king of animals? Ask different people get different answers. Peoples revolution is the most legitim answer to failing goverment in my opinion. Becouse in my opinion the government should work for the people and not the other way around.
EDIT EDIT:
Its legitim when Putin speaks for himself, that he does not respect peoples revolution in ukraine. Its his opinion.
Its not legitim when he says: "Ucrains goverment is not legitim." becouse he cant generalize his opinion as being true for others.
EDIT EDIT EDIT:
For money a good lawyer can make any illegimate thing legitim or other way round. Now rate the worth of legitimacy. And then rate the worth of a lawyer.
Hmm...Here is the text of the Geneva agreements of Ukraine:
(click to show/hide)
The term "illegal" is used many times. President Turchynov - "legal"? Maybe there is an official document, where it is written: "...the United Nations (the US, EU or Russia) recognizes the legality of the government Turchinov in Ukraine..."? If the President Turchynov is "not the legality" of the President, then all the Ministers, governors, bureaucrats (which Turchynov approved) - "illegal". Buildings and premises where the government works - "illegally seized buildings". All decisions and laws adopted after 23.02.14 - "illegal". The national Guard is "illegal armed groups"...
Remember, "...All illegal armed groups must be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings must be returned...".
There is not even attempt to impeach "legitimate" (according to the current Constitution of Ukraine) President Yanukovych and to make lawful the new President Turchynov. This legal illiteracy or what is it? Maybe it is a desire to show the world that " Ukraine does not have power. Ukraine cannot cope with the problems of their own. Ukraine is not controllable. Ukraine is unable to perform the Geneva agreements of Ukraine. Ukraine needs to introduce external management. On the territory of Ukraine should enter the troops of foreign powers?"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on April 21, 2014, 10:26:16 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 09:54:03 am
There is not even attempt to impeach "legitimate" (according to the current Constitution of Ukraine) President Yanukovych and to make lawful the new President Turchynov. This legal illiteracy or what is it? Maybe it is a desire to show the world that " Ukraine does not have power. Ukraine cannot cope with the problems of their own. Ukraine is not controllable.

I dont know why Yanukovych didnt step back after first Maidan and kept out of politic after this. Maybe Ukraine already was to internally split already then or he has so much power that even a Maidan Revolution couldnt stop him to get president later. I dont know. Still I think its a political no go to let a president return who was dismantled by public before. I think this was the first big desaster. Then there was the invasion of crimea, the second step to desaster. I dont know who provoked what. But it seems Putin was no small part of that.

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 09:54:03 am
Ukraine is unable to perform the Geneva agreements of Ukraine. Ukraine needs to introduce external management. On the territory of Ukraine should enter the troops of foreign powers?"

Shure most people outside of Ukraine would think it be best to have Ukraine on its own, without external involment. I just dont know what the Ukrainians want. Do they want to split? Do they want to keep theire sovereignity? IDK!
I am just very shure that Russia, USA and EU want the best for theire economy each and not the best for Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 21, 2014, 11:10:47 am
Quote from: Butan on April 20, 2014, 10:06:49 pm
I've also heard that russian schools are being converted in anti-terrorist cells and metal detector - x-ray - armed guards - walls + barbed wires to be added to all of them to make sure all kids are not inside enemy.
I've also heard russian are preparing invasion and heating up missile systems, with infrared mapping as proof.
I've also heard that russian are organizing trips to Ukraine to protest in the cities and that near to no native are participating.

If its not to be put in the "fake" category, I think yours and my informations still need some non-EU refining.
Good for you. Our retarded parliament legislated this crap 3 days ago.
If your blog(LJ, fb, youtube, twitter, vkontakte & other sites or pages) has more than 3k views per day(search bots included) you have to officially register as a mass media. All mm responsibilities included.

There is even a meme name for our current parliament: mad printer.
prohibition of foreign adoption, anti-gay, anti-piracy, Internet censorship, rallies, noncommercial organizations, etc.

How many senators(upper parliament) voted for military intervention? - All
How many deputies(lower parliament) voted against Crimea annexation? - 1 (from 450) Other dudes now want him to be dismissed.

Cmon, ppl, do you really want to live in such country or have such leaders as Putin? Without gas & oil Russia would become another Bad Korea in few years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 21, 2014, 11:20:26 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 09:54:03 am
Hmm...Here is the text of the Geneva agreements of Ukraine:
(click to show/hide)
The term "illegal" is used many times. President Turchynov - "legal"? Maybe there is an official document, where it is written: "...the United Nations (the US, EU or Russia) recognizes the legality of the government Turchinov in Ukraine..."? If the President Turchynov is "not the legality" of the President, then all the Ministers, governors, bureaucrats (which Turchynov approved) - "illegal". Buildings and premises where the government works - "illegally seized buildings". All decisions and laws adopted after 23.02.14 - "illegal". The national Guard is "illegal armed groups"...
Remember, "...All illegal armed groups must be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings must be returned...".
There is not even attempt to impeach "legitimate" (according to the current Constitution of Ukraine) President Yanukovych and to make lawful the new President Turchynov. This legal illiteracy or what is it? Maybe it is a desire to show the world that " Ukraine does not have power. Ukraine cannot cope with the problems of their own. Ukraine is not controllable. Ukraine is unable to perform the Geneva agreements of Ukraine. Ukraine needs to introduce external management. On the territory of Ukraine should enter the troops of foreign powers?"

The new government of Ukraine is recognised by the international community, try again. An example of the illegal armed groups includes the "self-defense forces" that somehow appeared in Ukraine near the Russian border and somehow found AKs, Russian army uniforms and commando training lessons lying down on the ground there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 12:09:47 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 21, 2014, 11:10:47 am
Cmon, ppl, do you really want to live in such country or have such leaders as Putin? Without gas & oil Russia would become another Bad Korea in few years.
yep better without gas & oil and Putin become another democratic Ukraine  :lol:

Quote from: Kafein on April 21, 2014, 11:20:26 am
try again and u
try again and u. Crimean self-defense forces alredy disbanded so they talk about "right sector" and "maidan self-defense"  :P mb also about "terrorist on east"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 21, 2014, 12:10:55 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 02:04:11 am
The new government in Ukraine, elected on the Maidan, already 2 months. I have a question: Why not declared impeachment to the President? No reason? There are many legal ways to find a reason for impeachment. Ukraine does not need the presence of a legitimate leader? Ukraine does not need the presence of a legitimate government?
The USA has approved granting of the loan Ukraine. But who today can issue loans? Who will sign the paper from the Ukrainian side? "The government of Maidan"? "De jure", the Bank may grant credit only to the government of Yanukovych. Any lawyer will argue that the guarantee (from the USA) do not apply to the loans which are issued by any Bank to the government Turchynov... Ukraine does not need loans?
May be someone benefits from the absence of a legitimate government in Ukraine? Later it will be possible to explain everything "not legitimate" activities and "not legitimate" orders, artists (from the government and governors of Ukraine) who " illegally usurped power".

Ivani4 you sound like a barbie fangirl trying to take part in discussion of transformers, read as incompetent. I find it as a special way of disrespect to everyone who tries to discuss things here. Can you just look into things before you start making posts? Read Wikipedia at least before you make assumptions because you don't look any better than Panos for instance, a guy who makes emotional posts about things he has no idea. Even in this thread it was posted a bunch of times. I find time to explain it again and show where you're wrong:

1. Current government wasn't elected on Maidan (unlike separatist Crimean government, that's the main reason why Kremlin propaganda wants to equalize them).
2. Turchinov is not a President of Ukraine. He is a head of Parliament, elected by the majority of Parliament. By the law of Ukraine he temporarily gets powers of the President when President for various reasons can't rule.
3. Parliament is the same as it was elected long time before the Maidan took part. You can't simply change 450 deputies.
4. Read the meaning of the word "legitimate".

Also. If you start speaking about laws, can you tell me how legal were actions in Crimea? I just want to hear your opinion because it all smells like double standards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 12:40:32 pm
You're not meant to take their ramblings seriously. They themselves know how ridiculous their propaganda claims are, but they say it cheekily and with a smile, or make retarded "jokes" about it, because it literally doesn't matter what the justifications are and they know it. It all comes down to military strength, that is all they know and all they understand. You see it shine through here and there when they gleefully masturbate about how glorious Putin's blatant military annexation is, and how no one can stand before his mighty penis of power. It takes care of the massive chip on their shoulders and is some compensation for living in what is essentially a third world shithole dictatorship. It may be a third world shithole, but look, mighty EU and USA are afraid of us! Truly we are the heirs of Glorious Red Army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 21, 2014, 12:46:13 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 12:09:47 pm
yep better without gas & oil and Putin become another democratic Ukraine  :lol:
Russia + Putin - Gasoil = Belarus
Russia - Putin - Gasoil = Ukraine

Good for Ukrainians that they finally decided to change this formula to something like:
Ukraine - Yanukovich = Estonia=Poland=Latvia
Not perfect, but definitely better than it was.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 21, 2014, 12:46:32 pm
Just like the country, their military is third world quality as well. The only thing they have going for them really is the brainwashed masses.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 12:47:44 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 21, 2014, 12:46:13 pm
Russia + Putin - Gasoil = Belarus
Russia - Putin - Gasoil = Ukraine

Good for Ukrainians that they finally decided to change this formula to something like:
Ukraine - Yanukovich = Estonia=Poland=Latvia
rather it will be Greece, Moldova   :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 01:00:50 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 21, 2014, 12:10:55 pm
Ivani4 you sound like a barbie fangirl trying to take part in discussion of transformers, read as incompetent. I find it as a special way of disrespect to everyone who tries to discuss things here. Can you just look into things before you start making posts? Read Wikipedia at least before you make assumptions because you don't look any better than Panos for instance, a guy who makes emotional posts about things he has no idea. Even in this thread it was posted a bunch of times. I find time to explain it again and show where you're wrong:

1. Current government wasn't elected on Maidan (unlike separatist Crimean government, that's the main reason why Kremlin propaganda wants to equalize them).
2. Turchinov is not a President of Ukraine. He is a head of Parliament, elected by the majority of Parliament. By the law of Ukraine he temporarily gets powers of the President when President for various reasons can't rule.
3. Parliament is the same as it was elected long time before the Maidan took part. You can't simply change 450 deputies.
4. Read the meaning of the word "legitimate".

Also. If you start speaking about laws, can you tell me how legal were actions in Crimea? I just want to hear your opinion because it all smells like double standards.
   

 Dear Dave! Speaker of the Verkhovna Rada can and should perform the duties of the President (according to the Constitution of Ukraine), if the incumbent President is incapacitated or he declared impeachment. Yanukovych incapacitated? Yanukovych did not resign. Impeachment is not. Yanukovych the President of Ukraine (de jure)... the New authorities of Ukraine (de facto) do not recognize that Yanukovych is the current President. Because he's a bad guy. Why don't they initiate a criminal case? Why they don't interpret the situation in the legal field? Why the new government allow us to say: "the Ukraine was unconstitutional seizure of power. Crimea (or any other region) does not recognize the new government. Crimea will live as decide on the referendum of its citizens..."? I believe that Yanukovych is a big asshole. But does Ukraine have a lot of land? Ukraine wants to give a lot of presents?
By the way, until the Ukrainian leadership will not be "legal" status of loans to Ukraine can not get...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 21, 2014, 01:41:55 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 12:47:44 pm
rather it will be Greece, Moldova   :lol:
Well, according to Nebun, Moldova is as corrupt & shitty as Russia & Ukraine.

Greece?

Unemployment benefits in Greece are administered through Οργανισμός Απασχόλησης Εργατικού Δυναμικού  :P .  The monthly benefit is fixed at the "55% of 25 minimum daily wages", and is currently 360 euros per month with a 10% increase for each under-age child.
Russia: minimum 850 рублей(20 Эuгo), maximum 4900 рублей(100 Эuгo) per month.

Average salary:
Greece 704 €, Russia 554(400 in my city), Ukraine 164

Minimum salary:
Greece €586, Russia 156, Ukraine 74

So it would be awesome for Ukrainians if they would become another Greece.

PanosGreek only think(& tell Germans) that they are poor, but it doesn't mean that they really are.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on April 21, 2014, 02:16:10 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 21, 2014, 12:10:55 pm

1. Current government wasn't elected on Maidan (unlike separatist Crimean government, that's the main reason why Kremlin propaganda wants to equalize them).
2. Turchinov is not a President of Ukraine. He is a head of Parliament, elected by the majority of Parliament. By the law of Ukraine he temporarily gets powers of the President when President for various reasons can't rule.
3. Parliament is the same as it was elected long time before the Maidan took part. You can't simply change 450 deputies.

1. lie, noone was asking me or anyone who I know irl about the changes in government so it actually was elected on Maydan.
2. he is a person who is temporary leading the country (исполняющий обязанности президента Украины) so actually its EQUAL to the president of Ukraine.
3. lie, there are many changes. from new elected ministers to the role of partyes in the parlament.

btw I like the point "Russia is stronk only cuz  oil and gas". well I wish you to see T 90 close to you house. maybe it will change your mind about "Why Russia is stronk".

Quote from: Segd on April 21, 2014, 12:46:13 pm
Russia + Putin - Gasoil = Belarus
Russia - Putin - Gasoil = Ukraine

Good for Ukrainians that they finally decided to change this formula to something like:
Ukraine - Yanukovich = Estonia=Poland=Latvia
Not perfect, but definitely better than it was.
wat
the fuck are you talking about? have you ever been in my country before Maydan? or after Maydan? or Belarus? or Estonia? or Poland? or Latvia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 21, 2014, 02:27:39 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 21, 2014, 12:46:32 pm
Just like the country, their military is third world quality as well. The only thing they have going for them really is the brainwashed masses.

Maybe their military personnel is third world, but their weaponry isn't. USA and Russia are the only two countries in the world that have automated nuclear missile system. I hope you don't believe in magical barrier able to neutralize all the guided missiles fired at the same time at different targets. Because that's what those systems do, in case there has been nuclear attack on american/russian soil and multiple command centers don't react in given timeframe, AI gives the orders to fire or not to fire all available nuclear missiles that are hidden underground and hit predefined targets.

That is why neither USA or Russia want nuclear WW3, because it means whole planet is doomed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 21, 2014, 02:29:12 pm
Quote
1. lie, noone was asking me or anyone who I know irl about the changes in government so it actually was elected on Maydan.
2. he is a person who is temporary leading the country (исполняющий обязанности президента Украины) so actually its EQUAL to the president of Ukraine.
3. lie, there are many changes. from new elected ministers to the role of partyes in the parlament.

Come on...

1. Of course not, government is not elected in Ukraine, it never was.
2. Temporary, until president elections, which will happen in one month.
3. Ministers have nothing to do with parliament. Deputies in parliament are the same. Yes, lot of them quitted Party of Regions and joined winners. Well, can't say anything good about them. You can also blame Yanukovich here, who returned constitution of 1996 year.
By constitution of 2004 year such moves are not possible - deputy who quits his faction will lose his mandate. That's the reason why so many of members of Party of Regions were so hurry about that, they had to quit faction before returning of constitution 2004.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 02:40:42 pm

Ok I would love a real translation of this because of what I've read it's really hard to believe that he said that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 02:51:06 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 02:40:42 pm

Ok I would love a real translation of this because of what I've read it's really hard to believe that he said that.
he cares about her child more than she herself  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 21, 2014, 02:52:21 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 21, 2014, 02:27:39 pm
Maybe their military personnel is third world, but their weaponry isn't. USA and Russia are the only two countries in the world that have automated nuclear missile system. I hope you don't believe in magical barrier able to neutralize all the guided missiles fired at the same time at different targets. Because that's what those systems do, in case there has been nuclear attack on american/russian soil and multiple command centers don't react in given timeframe, AI gives the orders to fire or not to fire all available nuclear missiles that are hidden underground and hit predefined targets.

That is why neither USA or Russia want nuclear WW3, because it means whole planet is doomed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 02:51:06 pm
he cares about her child more than she herself  :P

That's the smartest thing you can come up with? Damn...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 02:58:14 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 02:54:42 pm
That's the smartest thing you can come up with? Damn...
yep now join xant camp  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 02:58:14 pm
yep now join xant camp  :P

What ever that means...

I asked for a simple translation and I get a "smartass" answer , judging by the context it's not something you should trivialise and laugh about, still I will reserve my judgement till I get a proper answer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 21, 2014, 03:15:09 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 02:40:42 pm
Ok I would love a real translation of this because of what I've read it's really hard to believe that he said that.
Don't forget that he is the leader of one of four major parties represented in our parliament. & also participated in 5/6(1991-2012) presidential elections.
(click to show/hide)

The clowniest clown of Russian politics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 03:38:12 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 12:40:32 pm
You're not meant to take their ramblings seriously. They themselves know how ridiculous their propaganda claims are, but they say it cheekily and with a smile, or make retarded "jokes" about it, because it literally doesn't matter what the justifications are and they know it....
My great-grandfather lived in Ukraine. He was Russian. Bastard Lenin invented the word "Ukraine" and said, "Neworussia is Ukraine". Ukrainian revolutionaries have dispossessed and moved my family (grandfather had 7 children) in Siberia. Me the same need justice. Neworussia is Russia. Ukrainian revolutionaries have to go to Siberia. All revolutionaries must live in Siberia (but better on the Yamal Peninsula)!  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 03:38:12 pm
My great-grandfather lived in Ukraine. He was Russian. Bastard Lenin invented the word "Ukraine" and said, "Neworussia is Ukraine". Ukrainian revolutionaries have dispossessed and moved my family (grandfather had 7 children) in Siberia. Me the same need justice. Neworussia is Russia. Ukrainian revolutionaries have to go to Siberia. All revolutionaries must live in Siberia (but better on the Yamal Peninsula)!  :twisted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine

Oh look, more retarded made up bullshit, along with a dash of completely irrelevant emotional appeal. And with some "joking" about ethnic cleansing, of course. Don't worry though, a shitload of ukrainians and tartars did end up getting deported to siberia to make way for blatant ethnic cleansing and waves of russian colonists, so your great grand-pa got "justice", and then some.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 03:55:42 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine

Oh look, more retarded made up bullshit, along with a dash of completely irrelevant emotional appeal. And with some "joking" about ethnic cleansing, of course.
Hmm... I say this? The revolutionary Communists was not "ethnic" cleansing, just some people were resettled in other regions.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 04:11:17 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 03:55:42 pm
Hmm... I say this? The revolutionary Communists was not "ethnic" cleansing, just some people were resettled in other regions.  :mrgreen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine

It absolutely was ethnic cleansing. Are you ignorant or just retarded?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 21, 2014, 04:49:10 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine

Oh look, more retarded made up bullshit, along with a dash of completely irrelevant emotional appeal. And with some "joking" about ethnic cleansing, of course. Don't worry though, a shitload of ukrainians and tartars did end up getting deported to siberia to make way for blatant ethnic cleansing and waves of russian colonists, so your great grand-pa got "justice", and then some.

Why are you placing Ukrainians and Tatars in the same basket? Ukrainians are slavs, just like Russians. They are derived from the same nation. Tatars are of turkish origin.

Ukrainians are not same as Russians but both are slavs and very similar. More similar than people who live in different parts of France, for example.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 21, 2014, 04:55:16 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 21, 2014, 01:00:50 pm
Dear Dave!

Dear Ivani4. I asked only one question to hear your opinion that you gladly ignored. The lack of the answer is the best answer though. If Yanukovych is a legal President - he can always come back to Ukraine to rule, he doesn't though. And If you've ever read Constitution of Ukraine (highly doubtful that you read even yours Constitution) you would understand that in order to make laws Parliament doesn't even need a President, they can make laws without his sign (if he doesn't sign it or refuse to sign during 2 weeks = it automatically gets "signed" as accepted).

Anyway, I'll repeat my question: Do you consider global actions in Crimea as legal? An answer and explanation (yes, no, half legal etc.)

Quote from: Dark_Blade on April 21, 2014, 02:16:10 pm
1. lie, noone was asking me or anyone who I know irl about the changes in government so it actually was elected on Maydan.
2. he is a person who is temporary leading the country (исполняющий обязанности президента Украины) so actually its EQUAL to the president of Ukraine.
3. lie, there are many changes. from new elected ministers to the role of partyes in the parlament.

btw I like the point "Russia is stronk only cuz  oil and gas". well I wish you to see T 90 close to you house. maybe it will change your mind about "Why Russia is stronk".

I'm not as kind and gentle as Serr so my reply will be in a harsh way. I'll repeat it once again for those mentally challenged people who don't understand: read Wikipedia at least before you god damn post. Why do you accuse me in lying if you have no idea about it?

First of all you might be too young to take part in any elections that took part in Ukraine, that's why you might not know that we never elected prime ministers, heads of Parliaments and even governors.
Second, he's head of Parliament and not a President. Read it as many times as you need before you realize it. We will elect President on 25th of May.
Third, I think that I have to use a very limited vocabulary to make posts so you can understand them. You seem not to understand differences between words "government" and "Parliament". And what do you mean "elected ministers"? They're not elected, they're assigned. As I've said, Ukrainians never elected ministers.

And the last one. For your wish to see T90 at my house, I wish you to see a day in your life when you finally get dignity, honour, bravery and a brain to realize that you lacked it all in the past. Hope it not to be your last day.

Quote from: Vovka on April 21, 2014, 12:47:44 pm
rather it will be Greece, Moldova   :lol:

U so funny)))))))))  :P  :D :P :P  :lol:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 05:45:54 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 21, 2014, 04:49:10 pm
Why are you placing Ukrainians and Tatars in the same basket? Ukrainians are slavs, just like Russians. They are derived from the same nation. Tatars are of turkish origin.

Ukrainians are not same as Russians but both are slavs and very similar. More similar than people who live in different parts of France, for example.

Because they weren't similar enough for russians. Still aren't apparently. And yes, they are both slavic peoples. I could ask the same question of retarded russian propaganda about ukrainian chocolate chip cookies who are "racist" towards russians. I've said it in the thread before, that ukrainians sided with the germans had more to do with the way russia had been fucking them up the ass for centuries and trying to obliterate any sort of identity and culture that deviated from their own. Like all other european ethnicities with the horribly bad fate of having to share a land border with Russia. In the made-up racial hierarchy of chocolate chip cookie Germany they were worth no more or less than any other slav. This is well-recorded history, but conveniently ignored by those crying about the plight of poor "opressed" russian minorities.
And the only people in France that would fit your description are basques and corsicans. Basque language is related to no other in Europe, being a remnant of pre-indogorilla peoples. Corsicans obviously north italian in origin. Occitan, norman and breton are all french dialects, the biggest "minority" native languages of the hexagon. So which peoples are you talking about, exactly? Not to mention linguistically half of medditerranean Europe are all derived from various forms of vulgar latin. Occitan blurs between french, aostan and catalonian. Aostan blurs between italian and occitan. Catalonian blurs between spanish and occitan.

edit: Lol found a new one, didn't know Indo-Ary*n was one of the forum's censored words. Or rather just that last part. Fits the general theme. It's a perfectly legitimate linguistic term though.
double edit, wrong linguistic branch...Indo-European, Indo-gorilla is specifically for the Indian subcontinent, I wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 21, 2014, 06:14:01 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 05:45:54 pm
Like all other european ethnicities with the horribly bad fate of having to share a land border with Russia.
Haha, oh yes.

As someone once said: "Russia has two types of neighbours - subjects and enemies."

And yeah, being an enemy is by far the better choice.

Did you know that Belorussia is (or at least was), in fact, a national state? That Belorussian is it's own distinct nationality and they have their own language, that is different from Russian? I had a talk about this with a colleague from Belorussia (don't ask, dunno how that even happens): Lukaschenko, being a good "ally" of Moscow, has effectively brought the soviet russification program to a successful finish - belorussian is effectively extinct now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 21, 2014, 06:56:17 pm
Hail Soviet Comrades
 
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on April 21, 2014, 07:15:35 pm
My sometimes browsing of this thread seems like its hundreds of pages of NATO and Russian posters shit talking each other/making light of the situation with jokes but pretty convinced their side is "doing the right thing" or vice versa.

That's great but are there any actual (Eastern) Ukrainian posters? Instead of Russian trolls posting how clearly happy these people are having their country destabilized, half the government being labeled chocolate chip cookies the other half putinists, and what appears to be daily violent shootings at ad hoc chokepoints with automatic weapons?

I know DaveUKR is Ukranian and he certainly doesn't seem happy.. I can be sympathetic to the Russian spin on things, but you hear the same crap about how these Russian speaking seperatists are living in real fear of chocolate chip cookie Kiev and want armored columns of Russians rolling into the middle of their town centers, coming from Russian news and citizens. Would appreciate perspective from people this is actually affecting.. instead of shitposting (for once)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 21, 2014, 07:53:46 pm
Denied.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 08:03:10 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 02:40:42 pm

Ok I would love a real translation of this because of what I've read it's really hard to believe that he said that.

Using google translation is the best I can do. The frothing at the mouth retarded rage comes through well enough imo:

Quote
April 18, the State Duma, during the morning approach to reporters before the plenary session head of " Liberal Democratic Party " in the State Duma Vladimir Zhirinovsky insulted and humiliated members of the media .

Question: Do we need to impose sanctions in response ? ( Prohibition on the entry of Russian men to Ukraine )

Zhirinovsky: Do not. All you bloodthirsty . Today you will about the film " The Furies Maidan " Rabies uterus ... you all , women Maidan . Would not have this rabies uterus - Maidan would not exist. Look at this fool Irina Pharaoh , she splatters hatred of Russian . Do you think she hates Russian ? She loves them ! Rabies uterus - no lover, husband not present , there's nothing! Beast sits between your legs . And through her silly tongue twister breaking this up. And you , stand ... What sanctions ? Yes kindly necessary, caress it! Where there are these little assholes go here ! Come here , too , a journalist ! Come on, I utter , and you ran up and start raping her hard .. Christ is risen ! Truly He is risen ! Christ is Risen! Truly He is risen !

Go kiss her , kiss ! Hug , kiss , grab ! And second take , kiss !

Voices of journalists that you get up here ? Pregnant girl ! It's insulting !

Zhirinovsky : Do not stand here pregnant ! Here without pregnant ! If a pregnant woman - home! Save your child better! Healthy enough for us ! What do you climb a lesbian ! What are you getting at protecting her!

Journalist : I do not need to be rude .

Zhirinovsky : I Hamley ! Get out of here! Which edition ?

Journalist : Interfax

Zhirinovsky : You'll be out of work at Interfax , everything! Still have questions ? And then go on Independence and here are pregnant , drug addicts and everything else ... We need healthy . Pregnant go to work should not , sit at home and take care of the baby! And less girlfriends - lesbians ! Get rid of them out of here , get out of here , damn lesbian , furies ! Any questions? All bye!

Original here if anyone wants to take a stab at it:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on April 21, 2014, 09:10:13 pm
What do you climb a lesbian!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 21, 2014, 09:15:42 pm
Thx Oberyn...

Yeah something similar was said on the portal I read about it but couldn't be sure since jurnalists put spin on things.

Well all I can say is, yes you Russians can be proud of your politicans that sit in Duma, lovely human being right there and he is a leader of some right wing party right? Proper lad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 21, 2014, 09:23:48 pm
Quote
That's great but are there any actual (Eastern) Ukrainian posters?

There are three south-eastern ukrainians actively posting in this thread - me, Dave and Dark Blade. Luckily, neither of us lives in Donetsk or Luhansk regions, so information about events there we get from media as well.

Quote
Well all I can say is, yes you Russians can be proud of your politicans that sit in Duma, lovely human being right there and he is a leader of some right wing party right? Proper lad.

That's him and his party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDPR
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 21, 2014, 10:08:00 pm
Ukraine calls for US military support (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/20/359390/ukraine-calls-for-us-military-support)

I dare you read that comment section. Good laughs I had there  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on April 21, 2014, 10:36:57 pm
Good old Zhirinovsky.  Most famous russian comedian!


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Quote
.... yes you Russians can be proud... 
oh dear
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 22, 2014, 12:45:17 am
Huh, Kiev officially posted photo's showing confirmed proof that most of the men storming the government buildings are Russian Troops(one is a Special Forces deployed in the war against Georgia in '08)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/world/europe/photos-link-masked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 01:08:17 am
Quote from: Christo on April 21, 2014, 10:08:00 pm
Ukraine calls for US military support (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/20/359390/ukraine-calls-for-us-military-support)

I dare you read that comment section. Good laughs I had there  :mrgreen:

Indeed, comments are pure gold. This world is full of Panos like beings.

cba to copy some of comments in here like the last time
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2014, 01:15:25 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on April 22, 2014, 12:45:17 am
Huh, Kiev officially posted photo's showing confirmed proof that most of the men storming the government buildings are Russian Troops(one is a Special Forces deployed in the war against Georgia in '08)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/world/europe/photos-link-masked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html
Not like anyone with any intelligence needs proof, though. Everyone except a couple retards, like Butan and the usual Russians, know that Russia is deeply involved in the events.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 22, 2014, 01:34:35 am
Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2014, 01:15:25 am
Not like anyone with any intelligence needs proof, though. Everyone except a couple retards, like Butan and the usual Russians, know that Russia is deeply involved in the events.

Oh I've always been, "Yup, Russians." but that's the proof that Russia is doing it. In Politics, "We know it's them, but there's no proof so we can't don't care," is often a valid escape. Once you got something in front of you, though, you're boned.

Quote from: Christo on April 21, 2014, 10:08:00 pm
Ukraine calls for US military support (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/20/359390/ukraine-calls-for-us-military-support)

I dare you read that comment section. Good laughs I had there  :mrgreen:

So much Western Banker, Jewish this, Patsy, comments. My God...What IS that website? Russian or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 01:53:27 am
Quote
Press TV takes revolutionary steps as the first Iranian international news network, broadcasting in English on a round-the-clock basis.

Our global Tehran-based headquarters is staffed with outstanding Iranian and foreign media professionals.

Press TV is extensively networked with bureaus located in the world's most strategic cities.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Havoco on April 22, 2014, 02:25:54 am
Quote from: Christo on April 21, 2014, 10:08:00 pm
Ukraine calls for US military support (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/20/359390/ukraine-calls-for-us-military-support)

I dare you read that comment section. Good laughs I had there  :mrgreen:

Kinda funny I saw the word Zionist appear more often than Russia in those comments .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 03:35:41 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 08:26:30 am
Quote from: serr on April 21, 2014, 09:23:48 pm

That's him and his party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDPR

So the party is called Liberal yet "It has supported the restoration of Russia with its "natural borders" (which the party believes include Belarus, Ukraine and other former Soviet republics)" gg  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:

Quote from: Yarl on April 21, 2014, 10:36:57 pm
oh dear

That comment was directed at ruskies on the forum (not Russians in general), the ones that try to trivialise and laugh off his disgusting comments
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 08:36:28 am
Quote from: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 08:26:30 am
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they (journalists) came for these comments and they got them. It's like putting your head in a crocodile's mouth, and then be surprised when crocodile will bite off it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 08:45:42 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 01:08:17 am
Indeed, comments are pure gold. This world is full of Panos like beings.

cba to copy some of comments in here like the last time
Quote
If the Synagogue of Satan has been able to overpower the Western Europeans the Eastern ones are easy meat. But a buddhist crypto is a new one, bwahahahahahahaha. Really the goyim must be dumb.
lulz

It's worth copying every single one of them tho :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 09:08:35 am
Dear Dave!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 09:12:24 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 08:36:28 am
they (journalists) came for these comments and they got them. It's like putting your head in a crocodile's mouth, and then be surprised when crocodile will bite off it.


and that makes it ok I suppose
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 09:51:50 am
Quote from: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 09:12:24 am
and that makes it ok I suppose
nope
but check dat video again. the first few seconds when he spoke harsh words against women of Maidan all three journalist  giggling (including pregnancy), but when he said the same thing to them, they would be offended - duplicitous bloody furies ((.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 10:04:34 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 09:51:50 am
... but when he said the same thing to them, they would be offended...
Зарекалась Маша не ебаться, заебалась Маша зарекаться  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 10:07:12 am
Don't even see the face of the woman at first, but ok I'll take your word.

Still what does it matter what kind of questions they ask, he is pushing people towards a pregnant woman shouting "siluj" which in my language is pronounced the same and means the same thing. I have no words really to explain how disgusted I feel, lowest of the life forms walking on two legs right there. How is he not arrested?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 10:17:36 am
Quote from: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 10:07:12 am
Don't even see the face of the woman at first, but ok I'll take your word.
Still what does it matter what kind of questions they ask, he is pushing people towards a pregnant woman shouting "siluj" which in my language is pronounced the same and means the same thing. I have no words really to explain how disgusted I feel, lowest of the life forms walking on two legs right there. How is he not arrested?
yep agree, kiss a pregnant woman its so disgusted  :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 10:35:58 am
Ooo, about appeared genius of historical Sciences, Oberyn!
Quote from: Oberyn on April 21, 2014, 04:11:17 pm
Are you ignorant or just retarded?
You have a possibility and wish to tell me about my country? Thank you! The history of our country is so little coverage here. You are very generous. Tell us more about the Georgian Stalin. Georgians have not been deported? Probably why we punished them in South Ossetia? Historical justice. However, we still have to send Saakashvili to permanent residence in Magadan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 10:36:54 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 10:17:36 am
yep agree, kiss a pregnant woman its so disgusted  :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting
Well, according to Oberyn's (Google) translation, he is talking about rape...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 10:45:23 am
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2014, 10:36:54 am
Well, according to Oberyn's (Google) translation, he is talking about rape...
He even translator has   anti-Russian, special and very comfortable translator for russophobes.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 10:47:50 am
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2014, 10:36:54 am
Well, according to Oberyn's (Google) translation, he is talking about rape...
yes it was perhaps the most weird part of show
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 10:51:39 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 10:45:23 am
He even translator has   anti-Russian, special and very comfortable translator for russophobes.  8-)
Quote from: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 10:47:50 am
yes it was perhaps the most weird part of show
So, what is it know?
Ivani4 says that it's not about raping her and Vovka seems to confirm that it is.

Could someone please either confirm or deny that he said that?
It can't be so hard. Seems like a rather simple question to me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 22, 2014, 10:53:11 am
Yes, he said that.
So, Ivani4, how would you translate "жестко насиловать"? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 10:53:17 am
yes it's rape, it's the same word in croatian, that's why I asked about the rest.

vovka and ivanič are just degenerate morons making a funny funny  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 22, 2014, 10:57:02 am
Why are you even engaging him? His opinions are fucking worthless, he's a brainwashed ultranationalist piece of shit. May as well just insult him for being such a complete fucking moron. The sort of "mind" that can honestly try to defend this politician and his statements. If he ever had any sort of objective judgement it is far, far gone. Probably voted for him, given how defensive about it he is.
Also imagine ANY european politician making these same statements. Even the most rabid far-right party in Europe would be publically lambasted. But this sort of fascist bullshit is perfectly normal in russian politics. The real scary part is not the personal insults, but his threat of getting the journalist fired, which is not idle at all. A job being under threat is the least of the worry of journalists there. Their lives are on the line everytime they dare take any stance critical of these fucking oligarchs. Not fake bullshit made-up Alex Jones threat, but actual fear for their lives. Strange how all the "buh buh but The West is so ebil!!11:!! Da zionist jewish NWO is source of all pain in duh wurld DUUHHRHRH" retards can't see the difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 10:58:04 am
Quote from: serr on April 22, 2014, 10:53:11 am
Yes, he said that.
Yes, he said that.
Quote from: serr on April 22, 2014, 10:53:11 am
So, Ivani4, how would you translate "жестко насиловать"? :)
kiss hard?  :P
Quote from: Prpavi on April 22, 2014, 10:53:17 am
yes it's rape, it's the same word in croatian, that's why I asked about the rest.
vovka and ivanič are just degenerate morons making a funny funny  :rolleyes:
I'm just not so shifts in policy to one video to judge a person, the party and the country as a whole ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 10:59:18 am
Well, if he would be a German politician his career was over after something like that.
Hell, one of our politicians said something like "Your filling up your dress just fine." to a female journalist wearing a dress like this...

(click to show/hide)

...and now is marked for life as an old degenerate debaucher with his political career ended.

Different standards I guess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 11:12:54 am
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2014, 10:59:18 am
Well, if he would be a German politician his career was over after something like that.
Hell, one of our politicians said something like "Your filling up your dress just fine." to a female journalist wearing a dress like this...
(click to show/hide)
...and now is marked for life as an old degenerate debaucher with his political career ended.
Different standards I guess.
ie your politicians are more concerned not to be called gay-gay nigga-nigga,  and not to offend a journalist?
for me it's nonsense when a politician dismiss, because he was caught with his mistress in a restaurant, or cos he in his youth  smoked weed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 22, 2014, 11:15:03 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 11:12:54 am
ie your politicians are more concerned not to be called gay-gay nigga-nigga,  and not to offend a journalist?

His statements aren't just offensive to one journalist, they're offensive to anyone with half a fucking brain. Which apparently doesn't include ~10% of Russia's entire electorate. But sure, threatening the press with the equivalent of "you'll never work in this town again!" is totally just good old fun. Because everyone knows Russia is number 1 for freedom of the press in the world, and journalists are never intimidated/fired/KILLED by oligarchs and government stooges that control the whole media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 11:16:38 am
No, they are actually just polite, mature and civilized people... most of the time at least.
Maybe those are words you don't really know the meaning of: mature, civilized, polite...

I'm sure Wikipedia will help you out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 11:21:34 am
Quote from: serr on April 22, 2014, 10:53:11 am
Yes, he said that.
So, Ivani4, how would you translate "жестко насиловать"? :)
Сер, Христос Воскрес!  Ты совсем там уже обьевропился? Зачем прикидываешься что не понимаешь о чём он говорит? Ты не знаешь манеру общения Жириновского? Или делаешь вид что понимаешь в русском только слова, а не смысл? Сны, незалежный ты наш,  на какой мове смотришь? На суржике? Или на западенском? Фильтруй высказывания.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 22, 2014, 11:22:11 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 10:35:58 am
Ooo, about appeared genius of historical Sciences, Oberyn! You have a possibility and wish to tell me about my country? Thank you! The history of our country is so little coverage here. You are very generous. Tell us more about the Georgian Stalin. Georgians have not been deported? Probably why we punished them in South Ossetia? Historical justice. However, we still have to send Saakashvili to permanent residence in Magadan.
Funny thing is - there ARE things to tell you about, which you actually DON'T read in your CCCP era\putler influenced history books. There was this book for example about red army "methods" during WWII and how they used to win battle after battly by overheating the muzzles of german mashineguns... but thats a long story.
Another thing is - this is where wild speculations about "true history" start, so lets leave it at that.

As to Stalin - taking an example and proving a rule by it is what gets you 0 in math exams. Good luck with your "logic".

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 11:21:34 am
Сер, Христос Воскрес!  Ты совсем там уже обьевропился? Зачем прикидываешься что не понимаешь о чём он говорит? Ты не знаешь манеру общения Жириновского? Или делаешь вид что понимаешь в русском только слова, а не смысл? Сны, незалежный ты наш,  на какой мове смотришь? На суржике? Или на западенском? Фильтруй высказывания.
Just because he has a moronic style of communications he is in no way to be excused for shit talking like this. Although... I frankly cant pick between "Only in russia(c)" or "In putlers russia - politicians shit talk their electorate, to better stress and pound in low self esteem of a common, non ruling class, citizen.". Which would be better?

Also - anyone care to explain, how russian "news agencies" managed to prepare and air the latest "ultranationalists atack eastern Ukraine heroes" an hour earlier, than the attack actually happened?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 11:28:11 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 22, 2014, 11:22:11 am
Also - anyone care to explain, how russian "news agencies" managed to prepare and air the latest "ultranationalists atack eastern Ukraine heroes" an hour earlier, than the attack actually happened?
1 - Putin personally inform them
2- ultranationalists actually employees russian "news agencies" and make news for them
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 22, 2014, 11:29:16 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 22, 2014, 11:22:11 am
There was this book for example about red army "methods" during WWII and how they used to win battle after battly by overheating the muzzles of german mashineguns... but thats a long story.

The whole rush forward with no weapons to get mowed down thing was only using penal batallions. Sure, there were a bunch of em, and often complete innocents would up there, but it's not like they sacrificed soldiers pointlessly. It is people they would have executed/deported to a wasteland in any case, if there wasn't a war going on. It is a popular meme (it even showed up in starting scene of Enemy at the Gates, the hollywood Stalingrad movie) but it's mostly Cold War propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 11:35:15 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 10:35:58 am
Ooo, about appeared genius of historical Sciences, Oberyn! You have a possibility and wish to tell me about my country? Thank you! The history of our country is so little coverage here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_in_the_Soviet_Union

I wonder what the Russian page says.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 11:54:19 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 11:35:15 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_in_the_Soviet_Union

I wonder what the Russian page says.
Just comparing the length of the text gives a first impression? Maybe? :)

(click to show/hide)
Note the amount of references.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 11:57:14 am
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2014, 11:54:19 am
Just comparing the length of the text gives a first impression? Maybe? :)

(click to show/hide)
Note the amount of references.
(click to show/hide)

fail, that's bulgarian
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 12:00:41 pm
Well, how I am supposed to know. I clicked the stuff that looked like the most promising Russian to me :D

EDIT: Oww, it actually says Bulgarian on the mouse-over :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 12:02:31 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2014, 12:00:41 pm
I clicked the stuff that looked like the most promising Russian to me :D
Looks legit  :P

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B7%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 01:28:17 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 11:35:15 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_in_the_Soviet_Union

I wonder what the Russian page says.

You do know that Wikipedia has editors for every language and there is no possibility that something fishy stays on wiki for longer than week? You can always translate russian page to check it out.

It is quite disgusting that you're using Wikipedia to make a claim how everything "russian" is controled by their government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 22, 2014, 01:30:24 pm
Zhirinovsky is an idiot, he was an idiot twenty years ago, and in the meantime he managed to become even bigger idiot. I can't believe he is still in politics. For what he did and say at that press conference he should be arrested.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 22, 2014, 01:31:05 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 22, 2014, 11:22:11 am
Just because he has a moronic style of communications he is in no way to be excused for shit talking like this. Although... I frankly cant pick between "Only in russia(c)" or "In putlers russia - politicians shit talk their electorate, to better stress and pound in low self esteem of a common, non ruling class, citizen.". Which would be better?

It's hilarious to me seing some people actually PROUD that their elites are untouchable. Yes, in the west politicians at the very least pretend to respect journalists, because they are supposed to be held accountable to their constituents. In Russia of course they know journalists are nothing more than tools to be used and discarded when convenient, so they treat them like worthless shits. It's a fucking farce and the vast majority of "journalists" are nothing more than shills. All the retarded conspiracy theories about complete authoritarian government control and manipulation in the West are infinitely more applicable to Russia, but morons gonna moron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 22, 2014, 01:32:43 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 01:28:17 pm
You do know that Wikipedia has editors for every language and there is no possibility that something fishy stays on wiki for longer than week? You can always translate russian page to check it out.

It is quite disgusting that you're using Wikipedia to make a claim how everything "russian" is controled by their government.

I agree, there's mountains of evidence for authoritarian control of the media, no need to make shit up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 22, 2014, 01:35:51 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 11:21:34 am
Сер, Христос Воскрес!  Ты совсем там уже обьевропился? Зачем прикидываешься что не понимаешь о чём он говорит? Ты не знаешь манеру общения Жириновского? Или делаешь вид что понимаешь в русском только слова, а не смысл? Сны, незалежный ты наш,  на какой мове смотришь? На суржике? Или на западенском? Фильтруй высказывания.

Иваныч, ты настолько закономерно и прямолинейно мыслишь, что с тобой скучно спорить. В твоих словах нет уважения к "братскому народу" или как там у вас в России сейчас модно говорить? Я не представляю, о какой дружбе идёт речь, когда ты даже в своей предвзятости язык называешь "западенским". Как оказалось, не так страшны европейские геи, как кремлёвские пидорасы. Выгораживать Жириновского и прощать ему его слова за т.н. "манеру речи" - это потакание той мерзости и клоуну, коими Жириновский и является. Он сказал, что сказал и должен нести ответственность за свои слова. Но он её не понесёт, ведь это Российская Федерация - колыбель правосудия, честности, равенства и гласности. Я общаюсь на русском, сны тоже вижу на русском, часто говорю на английском и иногда даже думаю на английском, разве это делает меня британцем? Или я должен преклоняться перед американцами или другими нациями, которые говорят на английском? Родной язык для меня всё равно украинский, по многим причинам. Но это не умаляет и ни в коей мере не ухудшает моё отношение к русскому языку. Тем более, что к моему разочарованию выяснилось, что я им владею лучше, чем принимающие участие в дискуссии граждане Российской Федерации. Ты думаешь, что люди сидят и молятся на Турчинова или Яценюка? Восхваляют их легитимность, законность и конституционность? Это всё чепуха и Россия не должна совать свой нос не в своё дело. Оправдывать аннексию Крыма какими-то законами? Это абсурд, который очевиден. Каждый раз, когда россияне начинают убеждать граждан Украины, что в России лучше, чем в Европе, я ловлю себя на мысли, что они пытаются убедить в этом сами себя. Если не получается, то в ход идут "гейропейцы, фашисты и братство славянских народов", вот и получится, как с казахами. В рамках таможенного союза они братья казахи, а в рамках жизни они "чурки, понаехавшие". Не стоит это братство и яйца выеденного.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 22, 2014, 01:36:39 pm
Quote from: Corwin on April 22, 2014, 01:30:24 pm
Zhirinovsky is an idiot, he was an idiot twenty years ago, and in the meantime he managed to become even bigger idiot. I can't believe he is still in politics. For what he did and say at that press conference he should be arrested.

No, he should be free to be a complete raging retard to anyone he wishes. Arrested for that, really? Maybe you think he should take a vaction to Siberia as well? That he is still a politician, and a relatively popular one at that, is a symptom of Russia's current zeitgeist, not a cause.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 22, 2014, 01:42:48 pm
In the West, main medias are controlled by the military industry, not by government. Our governments control nothing but the police and the army, because they don't have power any more. They are under control of the Banks and private industry.
No conspiracy, only Oligarchy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 01:45:39 pm
There are many politicians like Zhirinovsky, his type is not exclusive to Russia. That guy Panos worship is exactly the same (I believe he's called Kasidiaris).

Also, before he died in car accident Jörg Haider was quite popular among some Austrians.

Russian problem is not Zhirinovsky being loud. Problem is that smart people in Russia aren't telling him to shut the fuck up.

Zhirinovsky should be imprisoned, but not because of his act. He stole a shitload of money from Russian citizens and that is why he should be in prison.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 01:46:31 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2014, 01:42:48 pm
In the West, main medias are controlled by the military industry, not by government. Our governments control nothing but the police and the army, because they don't have power any more. They are under control of the Banks and private industry.
No conspiracy, only Oligarchy.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 22, 2014, 01:57:44 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 22, 2014, 01:36:39 pm
No, he should be free to be a complete raging retard to anyone he wishes. Arrested for that, really? Maybe you think he should take a vaction to Siberia as well? That he is still a politician, and a relatively popular one at that, is a symptom of Russia's current zeitgeist, not a cause.

Arrested for spreading of hatred, incitement to a crime, violation of the freedom of press, I am sure Russians have at least one of these criminal offenses in their Criminal Code. No Syberia, no summary trials, just simple implementation of laws.

And tell me, was Marine Le Pen head of third strongest party in France? I would like to hear your take about her and her daddy. Zeitgeist of France, much?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 02:42:50 pm
@Oberyn, censorship of journalists is obvious in Russia, but in western Europe it's only hidden. Journalists are threatened to lose their job if they speak about specific subjects here too. A lot of subjects have become tabboos because nobody dares to speak about it anymore because they're afraid of consequences on their life and job. Anybody speaking against the system is fired, censored or even threatened by private milicias (Soral's an exemple, Dieudonné too, though i'll agree with you that they're both morons, I don't support them at all).

You can't speak about national pride without being insulted of being a natzi. You can't speak about imigration without being insulted of being a natzi. You just can't speak about criminality without being insulted of being a natzi. You can't speak about prisons overpopulation, about how a huge majority of those prisoners are not from european origins, about how as soon as they're released they commit crimes again, about drugs and crime networks that are completely ignored, about police not being able to do its job because the state doesn't support it. You can speak about some corruption. But not all of it because everyone knows what happens up there, you'd have to be a fool to believe politics are for honest people. Most of the corruption is ignored because the government leads the police. You can't speak about religions, whereas everyone knows muslims are doing a lot of conversions, moslty among foreigners but now even for europeans thanks to the support of all the governments that used public money to build muslim temples and financed their organisations whereas the governments let the churches being destroyed every year. I could continue for hours with specific examples of censorship but that'd be tltr.

Marine le Pen is leading the 3rd strongest party in France because both the left and the right parties are bullshit full of corrupted morons and everyone is sick of both of those parties that are slightly different but have a lot in common. Though it's mostly a reactionnary vote because people want changes and she's the only alternative atm. The censorship, the fail of the past government and the crisis help her a lot. A bit of growing nationalism and ethnical cleansing but really that might be 1% at most. People don't believe they'll ever be president, which is true, so they vote for her to vote against the system but not for her as a president as they know she'll never get elected.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 02:56:50 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 01:28:17 pm
You do know that Wikipedia has editors for every language and there is no possibility that something fishy stays on wiki for longer than week? You can always translate russian page to check it out.

It is quite disgusting that you're using Wikipedia to make a claim how everything "russian" is controled by their government.

Get out of my head, I wasn't claiming anything. Besides, there are differences in Wikipedia content depending on the language. And the english version is in general the most scrutinized of all, by far.

If I look at say, the articles on Napoleon in French and English, there is a massive difference in the tone and qualitative language being used.

Quote from: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 02:42:50 pm
@Oberyn, censorship of journalists is obvious in Russia, but in western Europe it's only hidden. Journalists are threatened to lose their job if they speak about specific subjects here too. A lot of subjects have become tabboos because nobody dares to speak about it anymore because they're afraid of consequences on their life and job. Anybody speaking against the system is fired, censored or even threatened by private milicias (Soral's an exemple, Dieudonné too, though i'll agree with you that they're both morons, I don't support them at all).

You can't speak about national pride without being insulted of being a natzi. You can't speak about imigration without being insulted of being a natzi. You just can't speak about criminality without being insulted of being a natzi. You can't speak about prisons overpopulation, about how a huge majority of those prisoners are not from european origins, about how as soon as they're released they commit crimes again, about drugs and crime networks that are completely ignored, about police not being able to do its job because the state doesn't support it. You can speak about some corruption. But not all of it because everyone knows what happens up there, you'd have to be a fool to believe politics are for honest people. Most of the corruption is ignored because the government leads the police. You can't speak about religions, whereas everyone knows muslims are doing a lot of conversions, moslty among foreigners but now even for europeans thanks to the support of all the governments that used public money to build muslim temples and financed their organisations whereas the governments let the churches being destroyed every year. I could continue for hours with specific examples of censorship but that'd be tltr.

Marine le Pen is leading the 3rd strongest party in France because both the left and the right parties are bullshit full of corrupted morons and everyone is sick of both of those parties that are slightly different but have a lot in common. Though it's mostly a reactionnary vote because people want changes and she's the only alternative atm. The censorship, the fail of the past government and the crisis help her a lot. A bit of growing nationalism and ethnical cleansing but really that might be 1% at most. People don't believe they'll ever be president, which is true, so they vote for her to vote against the system but not for her as a president as they know she'll never get elected.



Oh wow, "You can't speak about national pride without being insulted of being a natzi." really ? If you speak like nazi, have the decency of admitting you do. There's a difference between going to prison and being rightfully accused of being a nationalist nutjob. For example, you should have the decency of admitting you are just being fed Geert Wilder's propaganda, eating it and asking for more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 03:05:23 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 02:56:50 pm
Oh wow, "You can't speak about national pride without being insulted of being a natzi." really ? If you speak like nazi, have the decency of admitting you do. There's a difference between going to prison and being rightfully accused of being a nationalist nutjob. For example, you should have the decency of admitting you are just being fed Geert Wilder's propaganda, eating it and asking for more.

Thanks for proving my point. Everyday is Godwin day in France.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 22, 2014, 04:00:34 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 03:05:23 pm
Thanks for proving my point. Everyday is Godwin day in France.
I think you are aiming besides the point here. WHOLE GENERATION in France, Germany (well - the western part), UK have no clue what a proper dictatorship-level-censorship is. Try creating something like hard-talk on bbc in russia. You will end up being fired from your job by some shit-head-old-school-moron like Zhirinovsky in NO TIME. NADA. Insta-fucking-ntly.  :rolleyes:

And as someone put it well - freedom of speech guarantees you a right a speak your mind and then everyone else can tell you that you are shit and should go and hide. And that is what freedom of speech is. It's not about keeping your job, if you talk bullshit, or protecting you from being called an idiot, if you compare censorship in russia vs e.g. France or UK. Both are MORE than likely to happen, but they have nothing to do with your freedom of speech being limited.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 04:37:55 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 03:05:23 pm
Thanks for proving my point. Everyday is Godwin day in France.

So, what is for you "freedom of speech" ? You spew racist crap and everybody else must agree ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2014, 04:49:28 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 03:05:23 pm
Thanks for proving my point. Everyday is Godwin day in France.
*brings up Nazis multiples times*
*brings up Godwin when someone mentions it once in a reply*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2014, 05:05:06 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 20, 2014, 10:00:46 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 22, 2014, 05:15:05 pm
Reading this thread always pisses me off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2014, 05:24:41 pm
Quote from: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 03:05:23 pm
Thanks for proving my point. Everyday is Godwin day in France.

Why do you thank somebody else when you can prove your own "godwin day in france" point with yourself, already?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 08:14:03 pm
The detention of an American in the form of the Ukrainian special forces:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2014, 08:16:47 pm
Fake.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: musketer on April 22, 2014, 08:24:54 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2014, 08:16:47 pm
Fake.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2014, 08:31:18 pm
Can these rukrainian apes say anything else than

"suka blyat nahuy nahuy blyaaaaat"

?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 08:46:46 pm
yep its fake

Quote from: Christo on April 22, 2014, 08:31:18 pm
Can these rukrainian apes say anything else than
"suka blyat nahuy nahuy blyaaaaat"
?

yep "salo"

"suka blyat gde salo blyat"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: musketer on April 22, 2014, 08:47:37 pm
Quote from: Christo on April 22, 2014, 08:31:18 pm
Can these rukrainian apes say anything else than

"suka blyat nahuy nahuy blyaaaaat"

?

Their country is being divided and nearly in a Civil War, how they should feel? if you know how, the tell them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2014, 08:48:39 pm
Quote from: musketer on April 22, 2014, 08:47:37 pm
Their country is being divided and nearly in a Civil War, how they should feel? if you know how, the tell them.

Not like complete savage cavemen would be a good start.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 22, 2014, 09:04:54 pm
US should fuck Ukraine and pull out their troops from all around the world and mass invade Mexico and South America and take what's rightfully theirs (free cokacokacokacokaaaa). Let Europe pull a start of WW2 all over again and watch as smaller countries gets destroyed without them doing anything because they're too scared.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 22, 2014, 09:11:01 pm
Quote
US should fuck Ukraine and pull out their troops from all around the world and mass invade Mexico and South America and take what's rightfully theirs (free cokacokacokacokaaaa). Let Europe pull a start of WW2 all over again and watch as smaller countries gets destroyed without them doing anything because they're too scared.


Merican anthem right dere
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 22, 2014, 09:12:38 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 09:30:39 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2014, 08:16:47 pm
Fake.
  Here's another one. In the Donetsk region detained about 20 foreign military:
And here's another small report about the missing American citizens in the region Donetsk: http://lifenews.ru/news/131295
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 22, 2014, 09:34:20 pm
Missing American citizens...from a Russian site.

Sounds legit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2014, 10:09:09 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/#:eyJzIjoidCIsImkiOiJfbHB2bHFsYmM5NDJuZDZmdyJ9 (http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/#:eyJzIjoidCIsImkiOiJfbHB2bHFsYmM5NDJuZDZmdyJ9)

No! Not yolostrovsky!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 22, 2014, 10:56:07 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 22, 2014, 04:00:34 pm
Try creating something like hard-talk on bbc in russia. You will end up being fired from your job by some shit-head-old-school-moron like Zhirinovsky in NO TIME. NADA. Insta-fucking-ntly.  :rolleyes:


Yes, and Abby Martin has been found dead in a pool of her own blood in her house, shortly after she said "russia is bad mkay" on her own show of Russia Today.

Oh, you mean she is still hosting the show? My bad  :P



And even if she had been fired, you should then refer to your closest democratic friend  :P

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 11:15:37 pm
It is reported that an American ship already hiding in the port of Romania...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 22, 2014, 11:49:21 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 11:15:37 pm
It is reported that an American ship already hiding in the port of Romania...
its fake too

была заметка "мол мое видение ситуации, что на самом деле случилось" и в ней расписан весь этот бред про супер секретное оружие подавления систем слежения и мол после чего куча матросов уволилось, офф инфы на эту тему нет ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 22, 2014, 11:54:00 pm
This:
(click to show/hide)

Remind me of that:
(click to show/hide)

And also a bit of those:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)



So this is all they could produce to prove Russia is 100% responsible of Ukraine unstability?



At this point in the crisis, if you are giving credits to this theory and still remain in the mindset that:

Quote from: Prpavi on April 13, 2014, 10:16:35 pm
It can never be compared to Maidan since there it was people of Ukraine protesting against Ukrainian goverment in Ukraine, not Ukrainian born Russian separatists taking arms and capturing police stations wanting to separate the whole region from Ukraine. Two completely different things but they will be brought up and compared time and time again especially by the Russian side.

You are out of your mind  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 23, 2014, 01:44:23 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 11:15:37 pm
It is reported that an American ship already hiding in the port of Romania...

Иваныч, зачем ты сюда это говно постишь? Ты либо наивный либо дурак, уже который раз очередную херь низкокачественную сбрасываешь.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 23, 2014, 02:10:18 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on April 22, 2014, 09:30:39 pm
  Here's another one. In the Donetsk region detained about 20 foreign military:
And here's another small report about the missing American citizens in the region Donetsk: http://lifenews.ru/news/131295
You realize these videos don't prove any such thing?

If America was involved with its military, Russia would know. Mainly by noticing someone's bending it over backwards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 23, 2014, 03:03:39 am
Well, the News over here DID confirm that "A strongly worded message to Russia Stop" and some troops are being shifted to that area. Seems the pictures are "giving the International Community" a valid reason to intervene now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 08:35:07 am
Quote from: Butan on April 22, 2014, 11:54:00 pm
This:
(click to show/hide)

Remind me of that:
(click to show/hide)

And also a bit of those:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)



So this is all they could produce to prove Russia is 100% responsible of Ukraine unstability?
<...>
Are you fucking kidding me? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy much.

Please find and compare ANOTHER instance of special forces which in a NEIGHBORING country dressed up EXACTLY the same with the same FACES and which were NOT in fact the original special forces. KTHXBAI. Otherwise - GTFO.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 23, 2014, 09:19:54 am
Quote from: Christo on April 22, 2014, 10:09:09 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/#:eyJzIjoidCIsImkiOiJfbHB2bHFsYmM5NDJuZDZmdyJ9 (http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/#:eyJzIjoidCIsImkiOiJfbHB2bHFsYmM5NDJuZDZmdyJ9)

No! Not yolostrovsky!

Seems to be legit, unfortunately. Even German News are reporting it. (https://news.vice.com/articles/vice-news-statement-on-simon-ostrovsky?trk_source=homepage-in-the-news)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 23, 2014, 09:29:28 am
http://coub.com/view/147fb
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 23, 2014, 10:21:44 am
Quote from: Christo on April 22, 2014, 10:09:09 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/#:eyJzIjoidCIsImkiOiJfbHB2bHFsYmM5NDJuZDZmdyJ9 (http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/#:eyJzIjoidCIsImkiOiJfbHB2bHFsYmM5NDJuZDZmdyJ9)
No! Not yolostrovsky!
Soon we will know the hot news about how he was tortured by depriving access to the Internet, tortured by feeding unhealthy food - sandwiches with mayonnaise and salo, and will certainly show to us his broken glasses)))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 23, 2014, 10:33:38 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 08:35:07 am
Are you fucking kidding me? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy much.
Please find and compare ANOTHER instance of special forces which in a NEIGHBORING country dressed up EXACTLY the same with the same FACES and which were NOT in fact the original special forces. KTHXBAI. Otherwise - GTFO.
http://geardo.com.ua/katalog/protective_gear/kaski/shlem-fma-ops-core-pj-helmet.html

u can buy it in Ukrain Sevastopol Novorossiyskaya ulica near central market  :P
but iam stronk recommend take this one
http://geardo.com.ua/katalog/protective_gear/kaski/maska-fma-wolf-4.html  :lol:

very popular this season in the Ukraine http://geardo.com.ua/katalog/wear/shapki-platki/balaklava-hwi-nomex-hood-chernaya.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 23, 2014, 10:38:47 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 23, 2014, 10:21:44 am
Soon we will know the hot news about how he was tortured by depriving access to the Internet, tortured by feeding unhealthy food - sandwiches with mayonnaise and salo, and will certainly show to us his broken glasses)))

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 23, 2014, 10:46:18 am
Quote from: Christo on April 23, 2014, 10:38:47 am
(click to show/hide)
yep (
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 23, 2014, 10:50:56 am
Yolotrovsky :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 11:17:04 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 23, 2014, 10:33:38 am
http://geardo.com.ua/katalog/protective_gear/kaski/shlem-fma-ops-core-pj-helmet.html

u can buy it in Ukrain Sevastopol Novorossiyskaya ulica near central market  :P
but iam stronk recommend take this one
http://geardo.com.ua/katalog/protective_gear/kaski/maska-fma-wolf-4.html  :lol:

very popular this season in the Ukraine http://geardo.com.ua/katalog/wear/shapki-platki/balaklava-hwi-nomex-hood-chernaya.html
You DO understand, that helms being fashionable and all and available - one can't simply BUY AK100 abroad from some "katalog.ru"? And even if one could - please check out what arms "rebel" milliitas use: usually its leftover junk, cheapest you can get.

As for popular helmet selections - please see pictures from maida. THAT is how random crowd selects its helmets. Not "all 20 troops wearing the same".

Really Vovka... you better be (or at least try to be) funny rather than stupid and ignorant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 23, 2014, 12:32:59 pm
When I search "yolostrovsky" in Google, this very thread is the only search result  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 23, 2014, 12:37:12 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2014, 01:46:31 pm
(click to show/hide)

As I always say : just read books. Your brain is actually under influence, and your proove it by retarded comics.
http://www.truth-out.org/archive/item/87386:inside-the-militaryindustrialmedia-complex-impacts-on-movement-for-social-justice
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 23, 2014, 01:01:24 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2014, 12:37:12 pm
As I always say : just read books. Your brain is actually under influence, and your proove it by retarded comics.
http://www.truth-out.org/archive/item/87386:inside-the-militaryindustrialmedia-complex-impacts-on-movement-for-social-justice
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 23, 2014, 01:19:58 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 08:35:07 am
Please find and compare ANOTHER instance of special forces which in a NEIGHBORING country dressed up EXACTLY the same with the same FACES and which were NOT in fact the original special forces. KTHXBAI. Otherwise - GTFO.

Same pants + same t-shirt = same person  :rolleyes:

And same faces? You see through face masks now? Please give us the identity of all the people with mask! Your skill would be very useful to Interpol.



A bit old quote but it made me laugh when I read it recently  :P

Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2014, 01:15:25 am
Not like anyone with any intelligence needs proof, though. Everyone [...] know that Russia is deeply involved in the events.

Common knowledge include ongoing geopolitical events where you're from? Your folk must be genius! Have you yet become employed for your foreseeing skill?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 02:54:44 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 01:19:58 pm
Same pants + same t-shirt = same person  :rolleyes:

And same faces? You see through face masks now? Please give us the identity of all the people with mask! Your skill would be very useful to Interpol.



A bit old quote but it made me laugh when I read it recently  :P

Common knowledge include ongoing geopolitical events where you're from? Your folk must be genius! Have you yet become employed for your foreseeing skill?
Riiiiight... you saw only tshirt and pants? And the ak100 available to russian army exclusively? n+1 number of troops who suddenly bought THE SAME equipement at PRESUMABLY the same internet outlet to boot? And showed it off at crimea and eastern ukraine... You want to see "random" crowd with random "equipement"? Look at how Maidan protests looked like. This here is organized specialized forces. You denied it once, even when putler admitted it. Now you do this again. There is this saying "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice - idiot me."

Good luck sitting in your hipster contrarian corner of "different-impartial-non-oppinion" waiting for solid admission by putler. AGAIN  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 23, 2014, 02:58:34 pm
You dont need solid admission, your irrefutable opinion is set since you were born  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on April 23, 2014, 03:01:17 pm
...And the VICE correspondant in Ukraine is held hostage by pro Russian militia.

http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/

https://twitter.com/vicenews?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2F2014%2F04%2F22%2Fvice-journalist-captured-ukraine%2F&tw_i=458639563423252480&tw_p=tweetembed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 23, 2014, 03:06:39 pm
I'm sure he'll be fine they are peaceful after all
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 03:24:09 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 02:58:34 pm
You dont need solid admission, your irrefutable opinion is set since you were born  8-)

Ad hominem at its best, aye?  :rolleyes: I suggest next time you argue about exact modification of guns used, again forgetting all details and stressing, that the guy in the picture may have been a secred AK lover, who modified his weapon to LOOK like it was brand new AK 100 and he was only POSING as russias special forces, because he loves them so much and is their fanboi No1. Would look less like attempt at being Vovka.

My opinion was formed by experience. I know full well conflicts like this are never black and white, but there ARE limits to what one nations should be able to coerce other weaker one to do. You on the other hand - you have your hipster contrarian bullshit non-opinion, which lasts until one side actually admits to what it was accused of. Anything less (and even the admision itself) is still grounds where you would be able to find reasons for NOT taking ANY actions, because OMG - I AM NOT SURE IT MAY BE ALL A FAKE MOON LANDING NEVER HAPPENED NEED MOAR PROOF. Its because of attitude like yours dominating pre WW2 Europe and appalling, shameful inaction that one chocolate chip cookie came to power and bigger part of WWII actually happened.

I fucking rest my case.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 23, 2014, 03:46:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 03:24:09 pm
Ad hominem at its best, aye?  :rolleyes: I suggest next time you argue about exact modification of guns used, again forgetting all details and stressing, that the guy in the picture may have been a secred AK lover, who modified his weapon to LOOK like it was brand new AK 100 and he was only POSING as russias special forces, because he loves them so much and is their fanboi No1. Would look less like attempt at being Vovka.

More proof that russian secret weapons, called kalasknikov by experts, has been secretly involved in foreign theater of operation!

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

I fucking rest my case! (or not)



Quote from: BASNAK on April 23, 2014, 03:01:17 pm
...And the VICE correspondant in Ukraine is held hostage by pro Russian militia.

http://mashable.com/2014/04/22/vice-journalist-captured-ukraine/

https://twitter.com/vicenews?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2F2014%2F04%2F22%2Fvice-journalist-captured-ukraine%2F&tw_i=458639563423252480&tw_p=tweetembed

Hope he is alive and well, and if they dont release him soon, he should be rescued by some free world non-involved agencies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 23, 2014, 03:53:46 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 03:24:09 pm
Its because of attitude like yours dominating pre WW2 Europe and appalling, shameful inaction that one chocolate chip cookie came to power and bigger part of WWII actually happened.
Poor Josef didn't believe till the end that his best buddy Einstein would backstab Mother Russia. "Moar proof required" ButanStalin said  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 23, 2014, 04:02:02 pm
For Kafein, interesting little bit of information to prove a past point:
WARNING: dont read if you're not Kafein or you're easily pissed off!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 23, 2014, 04:04:09 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 03:46:12 pm
More proof that russian secret weapons, called kalasknikov by experts, has been secretly involved in foreign theater of operation!
Didn't you were saying same things about crimea river self defence forces? A month later - boom! Putin acknowledged military presence!

"The U.S. State Department said to the Russian Foreign Ministry, that they know nothing about aircraft carrier, 17 warships and 3 nuclear submarines arrived into the Black Sea.
- Most likely those are self-defense forces of Maidan - say U.S. diplomats"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 23, 2014, 04:21:54 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 03:46:12 pm
More proof that russian secret weapons, called kalasknikov by experts, has been secretly involved in foreign theater of operation!

And those Maydan hippies didn't even find one ! Ha !

Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 03:46:12 pm
Hope he is alive and well, and if they dont release him soon, he should be rescued by some free world non-involved agencies.

Like with any person taken hostage abroad, foreign affairs will seek to enter in discussions with whoever is holding the captive. Not so long ago a group of French journalists has been freed from some shithole in Africa.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 23, 2014, 04:23:06 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 23, 2014, 04:04:09 pm
Didn't you were saying same things about crimea river self defence forces? A month later - boom! Putin acknowledged military presence!

"The U.S. State Department said to the Russian Foreign Ministry, that they know nothing about aircraft carrier, 17 warships and 3 nuclear submarines arrived into the Black Sea.
- Most likely this are self-defense forces of Maidan - say U.S. diplomats"

If you are not easily pissed, I suggest reading the post above yours  :wink: 

And yes, many things I said in the past was wrong or at least I doubted things that were in the end confirmed, only people that think too high of themselves cant be arsed removing the blindfold they put on their eyes even after we shove the truth in their mouth. But there is a shade between no russia in crimea and russia in crimea did it, and I will remain true to my word until proven otherwise.


Quote from: Kafein on April 23, 2014, 04:21:54 pm
And those Maydan hippies didn't even find one ! Ha !

Small arms were rampant in maidan, google some vids and you can see for yourself. Not all deaths were caused by police.

Does the organisation level of Eastern Ukraine is enough to prove they are solely conducted by a foreign nation? No, but it gives credence to the idea. Still, less "smart" assumptions, more "retarded" facts, would be useful in this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 04:28:22 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 04:23:06 pm
<...> But there is a shade between no russia in crimea and russia in crimea did it, and I will remain true to my word until proven otherwise.
I'm a FUCKING PROPHET!  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 03:24:09 pm
<...> You on the other hand - you have your hipster contrarian bullshit non-opinion, which lasts until one side actually admits to what it was accused of. Anything less (and even the admision itself) is still grounds where you would be able to find reasons for NOT taking ANY actions, because OMG - I AM NOT SURE IT MAY BE ALL A FAKE MOON LANDING NEVER HAPPENED NEED MOAR PROOF.<...>

I fucking rest my case.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 23, 2014, 04:38:41 pm
Guilty as charged  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 23, 2014, 04:38:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 04:23:06 pm
Small arms were rampant in maidan, google some vids and you can see for yourself.

I suggest you google some vids first and show them here before trying to make shit up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 23, 2014, 04:47:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 23, 2014, 04:38:58 pm
I suggest you google some vids first and show them here before trying to make shit up.

I am sorry but YOU missunderstood the whole situation. Twice.

First - Butan used what would be called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(logical_fallacy) to make YOU do the nigh impossible task.

Secong - Butan will argue, that bricks and sticks ARE small weapons because DUH - its almost obvious 8-)

Now all we need is a witty Vovka. Or an attempt by Butan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 23, 2014, 05:06:56 pm
If rampant definition is  "growing or developing unchecked", I dont see how you can say I'm making shit up? Or really not informed.

(im a bit sick with looking for quotes and docs so I will lmgtfy later if noone does it for myself in the meantime  :P or as Kuujis said im just tricking you into submission!!!)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 24, 2014, 10:45:35 am
bump!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 24, 2014, 11:01:05 am
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 01:19:58 pm
Common knowledge include ongoing geopolitical events where you're from? Your folk must be genius! Have you yet become employed for your foreseeing skill?
Nope, common knowledge is that when you see soldiers in exact Russian military equipment pop out of the ground, they're Russian military.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 24, 2014, 11:12:50 am
Original footage of Yanukovich escape(it would be funnier if you'll learn Russian before watching):
http://video.bigmir.net/show/456505/

They used real Yanuk house & his golden long loaf
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 24, 2014, 11:13:04 am
Butan is so naive, he still doesn't believe Russian military took action in Ukraine. Here's holy jacket for you, it works perfect.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 24, 2014, 11:51:46 am
Of course he doesn't really believe that. He's just being a contrarian troll asshole, with his shitty little smilies  :P  :P  :o  :shock:  :rolleyes:. Or maybe he really is retarded enough to believe it, I dunno. I doubt anyone could be that fucking stupid though. He probably just see's nothing wrong with it and is pro russian military intervention, but he has to lie about it like a little bitch.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 24, 2014, 01:19:39 pm
:rolleyes: :P 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 24, 2014, 02:53:33 pm
Quote from: Segd on April 24, 2014, 11:12:50 am
Original footage of Yanukovich escape(it would be funnier if you'll learn Russian before watching):
http://video.bigmir.net/show/456505/

They used real Yanuk house & his golden long loaf

(click to show/hide)

No need to learn russian  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on April 24, 2014, 03:15:02 pm
https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/459303121001660416/photo/1

damn...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 24, 2014, 04:16:04 pm
Quote from: Boerenlater on April 24, 2014, 03:15:02 pm
https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/459303121001660416/photo/1

damn...

Its ok, they only shoot people which have russian equipment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 24, 2014, 04:20:40 pm
Quote from: Boerenlater on April 24, 2014, 03:15:02 pm
https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/459303121001660416/photo/1

damn...
oh if twitter say so.... gonna make twit about declaring war on Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 24, 2014, 04:28:09 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 24, 2014, 04:20:40 pm
oh if twitter say so.... gonna make twit about declaring war on Ukraine
I'm shocked, but I agree with your sentiment.

Some self appointed punk declared civil war... that is... STRONK. :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 24, 2014, 04:29:18 pm

Apparently heavy military traffic on border to Ukraine. The main Russian invasion has started. GLHF.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 24, 2014, 04:53:41 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 24, 2014, 04:29:18 pm
(click to show/hide)
Apparently heavy military traffic on border to Ukraine. The main Russian invasion has started. GLHF.
Hopefully its another "training", although local news here report videos of russian forces with "peacekeepers" written over them. Wonder what peace they are going to be keeping there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 24, 2014, 05:00:04 pm
My money's on Odessa next, any takers? This won't end until Ukraine is completely cut off from the Black Sea, at the very least.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 24, 2014, 07:01:57 pm
Kiev
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 24, 2014, 07:07:09 pm
" Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said on April 24 that the violence stemming from Ukraine's anti-terror operation in eastern Ukraine has prompted Russia to launch military drills in western Russia.

"The forces are clearly unequal," Shoigu said at a ministerial collegium meeting.

"If this military machine is not stopped today, it will lead to a large number of dead and wounded," he continued. "

Hahahah. Russians are hilarious. "The government forces and the rebel/Russian forces are not equal. We must intervene!"

Russian law enforcement must be really hazardous when their government insists on both forces being equal.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 24, 2014, 07:08:51 pm
"US journalist Simon Ostrovsky, held by pro-Russian separatists in Sloviansk, has been freed"

Yay.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 24, 2014, 04:29:18 pm

Apparently heavy military traffic on border to Ukraine. The main Russian invasion has started. GLHF.

NATO forces in Ukraine are "only for show, dont worry" but Russian forces on the border of Ukraine doing the same show on their own territory is an invasion. My little finger tells me there is a fallacy somewhere!


Little Butan's smyleys post  :) :rolleyes: :P Dont read ever!
(click to show/hide)




The only way to resolve the crisis peacefully today, which was created by Maidan success, is to accept the separatism and go with the flow of the population demands, not to eliminate it, except if they are ready to shoot dead the vocal minority of their own people in the east region and to then "occupy" the silent majority who will hate Kiev for it.
Even I had doubts on Ukraine nationalist gaining the upper hand in new Kiev, but with the latest announcement on the ongoing crisis I think they have totally overtaken the whole of the government, if not in "political party" influence, at least in spirit and in heart, with the not even silent approval of the EU/US after all those "diplomatic meeting".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 25, 2014, 03:12:53 am
Kerry attacks Russia for Ukraine deception  (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2014/04/kerry-attacks-russia-ukraine-deception-201442422500669745.html)

Quote from: John Kerry
"Let’s get real, the Geneva Agreement is not open to interpretation. It is not vague. It is not optional,"

"Let me be clear, if Russia continues in this direction, it will not just be a grave mistake but an expensive mistake. The window to change course is closing."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tom Cruise on April 25, 2014, 04:34:03 am
So does this mean Na'Vi is going to die? Literally?

RIP in peace Dendi
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 25, 2014, 04:35:17 am
Quote from: Tom Cruise on April 25, 2014, 04:34:03 am
So does this mean Na'Vi is going to die? Literally?

RIP in peace Dendi

Have no fear

(click to show/hide)

He has good reflexes, he should be fine  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 25, 2014, 08:55:14 am
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
NATO forces in Ukraine are "only for show, dont worry" but Russian forces on the border of Ukraine doing the same show on their own territory is an invasion. My little finger tells me there is a fallacy somewhere!

There is a fallacy in your reasoning, because the NATO countries on the border of Ukraine have zero interest in trying to annex some parts of it. Not in a million years. In fact, their only interest is to prevent Russia doing that.

Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
The only way to resolve the crisis peacefully today, which was created by Maidan success, is to accept the separatism and go with the flow of the population demands, not to eliminate it, except if they are ready to shoot dead the vocal minority of their own people in the east region and to then "occupy" the silent majority who will hate Kiev for it.
Even I had doubts on Ukraine nationalist gaining the upper hand in new Kiev, but with the latest announcement on the ongoing crisis I think they have totally overtaken the whole of the government, if not in "political party" influence, at least in spirit and in heart, with the not even silent approval of the EU/US after all those "diplomatic meeting".

The euromaydan crisis ended just about as soon as Yanukovitch fled. Everything that happened afterwards in Crimea and the eastern regions is a result of Russia destabilizing the country.

But yeah now that it's done, let's just split Ukraine between a NATO country that hopefully won't be bullied again and shithole eastern regions. At the end of this crisis, the neighbors of Russia that still want some form of independance will want to join NATO even stronger than before. And Putin will cry because he's being surrounded by evil American conspiracy against the Russian people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 10:03:04 am
A German TV, ARD, about Maîdan murders : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1qnu74_ard-qui-est-responsable-du-carnage-de-maidan-11-04-2014_webcam?start=30

(video is in german with french subtitles, I look for the english version)

Or is it another russian conspiracy (Dave) ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 25, 2014, 10:06:22 am
Every single time Putin speaks about "Protecting the Russian population", it makes me smile.
When you live 10+ years in a country, you work there, your kids were born there, you are not part of another country any more. Those are all Ukrainians, doesn't matter if they like it or not. When you see it that way, Putin is going against his own agenda:

Syria used chemical weapons on it's population? Too bad but none of our business.
Ukrainians storm government buildings in the East? Protect the innocent.

And then it's even more funny to see that the "German part of the internet" is full with Putin supporters with the same sick view like Panos described: "Wish we had a stronk lider like Putin!" Even worse, they are like Butan too, no reasoning with them at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 10:14:10 am
What a thrall...
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
NATO forces in Ukraine are "only for show, dont worry" but Russian forces on the border of Ukraine doing the same show on their own territory is an invasion. My little finger tells me there is a fallacy somewhere!
Sorry, I missed something... You consider the CIA chief visit to Ukraine "NATO forces"? Or there is some other sick shit in your contrarian corder your would be willing to call OTAN forces?

Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
<...blaberish...>
Euro-maidan government repression scaling:

20 november, beginning of pro-EU crisis in Kiev and Western provinces

21 november - 30 november = normal police
1 december - 21 january = normal police + riot police
22 january - 17 february = normal police + riot police (+hired thugs/special services operation, unconfirmed)
18 february (last ditch attempt to retake control of Maidan by force) = police authorized to use live ammo (fires on crowds which tries to take back maidan after first push, dozens of dead)
20 february = government collapse + beginning of Crimean/Eastern Ukraine crisis
Eastern Ukraine new government repression scaling:

22 february, beginning of pro-RUS crisis in Crimea and Eastern provinces

23 february - 31 march = local police
1 march - 11 april = local police + ukraine security forces + national/border guards + national security service agents
12 april (unknown armed forces takes control of police stations) = above + army + anti-terrorist agents, authorized to use live ammo (which fails because they mostly encounter unarmed civilians, small skirmishes with insurged armed forces, dozens of dead)
14 april - present = government alive and well, continue to send army and conduct nation scale anti-terrorist operations
(click to show/hide)
<...>
Conveniently forgetting what those forces were up against much? Please, let me know, how should government handle separatists taking arms, abducting and killing politicians and installing fucking road blocks in your country? I know that after such things happend.. oh... well... in russia- the fucking country WITH ALL FUCKING CIVILIANS WHO DID NOT RUN FAST ENOUGH INCLUDED were FUCKING BOMBED TO HELL AND BACK. THAT for you is the russian handling. Given that - I state, that handling of current ARMED separatists if REALLY mild. And that's a good thing imo, much harder for putler to cry like a baby... Need to stage acts of "attacks" and find contact cards as proof... funny shit, if it was not about war.

Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
I guess, demanding the restoration of power structures to protect the Ukrainian citizens who lived in Kiev and Western provinces 3 months ago would have been unrestrained illegitimate move!

But new legitimate interim president chosen by all the Ukrainian people can say this and noone is the wiser  :P

Thats a good question, in retrospective!
That is "a question" only in your messed up contrarian hipster corder, unfortunately.
1. You are ignoring the nature of the protest. One was innitially an occupation of some square, which ended up flaring after repressions started. Another STARTED as armed small gangs occupying government buildings and THEN asking the crowds to come and save them. A bit vice versa I would say, although - I did not see OTAN troops on the ground in Maidan storming some buildings... I did see fucked up government snipers firing and killing the protesters though.
2. You are ignoring, the nature of your so coveted legitimacy: Parliament of Ukraine is STILL THE SAME as it was. Only president fled. Opposed to that there are guys with guns and masks breaking into buildings "self appointing" to be mayors, governors and generic douchebags, which "declare civil wars" every second day. The only similar things between Eastern ukraine separatists and Maidan is the burning tires. And those are for show only. And unfortunately - the show is all you need to find "doubts" and "deceits" everywhere...

Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
The only way to resolve the crisis peacefully today, which was created by Maidan success, is to accept the separatism and go with the flow of the population demands, not to eliminate it, except if they are ready to shoot dead the vocal minority of their own people in the east region and to then "occupy" the silent majority who will hate Kiev for it.
Even I had doubts on Ukraine nationalist gaining the upper hand in new Kiev, but with the latest announcement on the ongoing crisis I think they have totally overtaken the whole of the government, if not in "political party" influence, at least in spirit and in heart, with the not even silent approval of the EU/US after all those "diplomatic meeting".
Lets... see... HOW ABOUT FUCKING NO? Based on assumptions like this WWII started, with germans coming to "save their compatriots" and shit. Europe once went that way, it DOES NOT WORK. If you live in a country you obey its laws. If you do not agree with laws or do not like them - you can move to fucking russia where guys like putler do not give a damn about them anyway.

Also - care to share any particulary strong reasons why a TERRIBLE minority of some... 1000 (?) self defined "troops" compared to 10 mil citizens should be listened to, when in fact - their approval rate is only somewhere around 40-50% according to latest pools? Vocal minority IS allowed to protest, but I do not know a single country in this world (barring some 3rd world ones and the ones in your contrarian hipster corner) where occupying government buildings, robbing weapon caches and then running around in masks and full combat gear is considered a reasonable protest NOT needing some involvement from government. I do not see a lot of sense in listening to these hard-line fanatics and I don't have a better name for them. :!:

Oh... wait... I do have: FUCKING rUSSIAN SPECIAL FORCES  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 10:20:28 am
At Maidan, snipers could have been NATO commando, but I think it's more some guys from Blackwater (and, oh yes, CIA like them very much).

Just watch my video 2 posts before : the bullets were exactly the same (police and rioters). You can't say that was Iaku's men job.


edit : here it is in english
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 25, 2014, 10:25:52 am
At Maidan, snipers could have been RF commando, but I think it's more some guys like RSB-Group (and, oh yes, FSB like them very much).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 10:27:25 am
Quote from: Molly on April 25, 2014, 10:25:52 am
At Maidan, snipers could have been RF commando, but I think it's more some guys like RSB-Group (and, oh yes, FSB like them very much).

Stupid, Russia had no interest for destabilization in Ukraine. But it's Brezinsky doctrine. Stop trolling please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 10:48:18 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 10:27:25 am
Stupid, Russia had no interest for destabilization in Ukraine. But it's Brezinsky doctrine. Stop trolling please.

Stupid, Nato had no interest for destabilization in Ukraine. But it's putlers agenda and goal to unify slavs... Stop trolling please.

 :rolleyes:

(am I doing it rite? :mrgreen: )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 11:07:08 am
NATO is not supposed to exist anymore. Could you tell me what is the justification to extend to the East ? In 2001, Putin was close to the US. He helped them to invade Afghanistan. But then, they put some anti-missile system at the border. Why ?
Now, they try to destabilize Ukraine as in Georgia. That's not very cool yankees.

We all know that all those "Orange revolutions" are organized by Otpor or Soros' OSF. Are you really so naive or just ignorant ? Revolutions never spread from nowhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 25, 2014, 11:19:15 am
In fact all the revolutions in the history of mankind had been plotted and financed by the NATO.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 25, 2014, 11:29:44 am
Quote from: Paul on April 25, 2014, 11:19:15 am
In fact all the revolutions in the history of mankind had been plotted and financed by the NATO.
This. How could we've been so blind?! D:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 11:31:48 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 11:07:08 am
NATO is not supposed to exist anymore. Could you tell me what is the justification to extend to the East ? In 2001, Putin was close to the US. He helped them to invade Afghanistan. But then, they put some anti-missile system at the border. Why ?
Now, they try to destabilize Ukraine as in Georgia. That's not very cool yankees.

We all know that all those "Orange revolutions" are organized by Otpor or Soros' OSF. Are you really so naive or just ignorant ? Revolutions never spread from nowhere.
Who are you to judge whether or not should some organization exist? Who is putler? WHY SHOULD IF FUCKING GIVE A DAMN what putler wants/thinks? There is probably hard to find less trust worthy signatory of bilateral agreements in the Europe...

Also:
CCCP is not supposed to exist anymore, but puler pushed for it to be reborn. Could you tell me what is the justification to extend russia to lands that it ITSELF confirmed as belonging to another country just 13 years ago ? In 2001, Putin looked like a guy who could be considered a business partner. He helped them to invade Afghanistanallowed US to cross russian air space. But then, they put some anti-missile system at the border russia increased its military presence in kaliningrad and attacked Georgia. Why ?
Now, theyputler tries to destabilize Ukraine as he succeeded Georgia. That's not very cool yankees commies.


Oh, and now THE BEST "WE ALL KNOW" part :) RIPE for "CORRECTING" ;)
We all know that all those "Orange revolutions"democratic movements of people fed up with corruption are organized natural by Otpor or Soros' OSF when you live in a post soviet countries, where propaganda is not stronk enough and you cant find weaker external enemies to unify your populace against. Are you really so naive or just ignorant ? Revolutions never spread from ALWAYS appear from nowhere, if you are naive enough and cant see what people actually HATE about their current government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 12:13:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 02:07:33 am
NATO forces in Ukraine are "only for show, dont worry" but Russian forces on the border of Ukraine doing the same show on their own territory is an invasion. My little finger tells me there is a fallacy somewhere!
Just when I thought it wasn't possible, Butan goes even more retard. I thought he was already in Full Retard mode but no, he outdoes himself.

The Maximum Retard compares NATO forces on Ukraine's border to Russia's forces on Ukraine's border... like... what? Wat. Wut. I wonder if Ukraine is worried about NATO forces.. I wonder if Ukraine is complaining about them.. or.. oh.. wait... is Ukraine actually ASKING for them? Yes, yes it is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 25, 2014, 12:16:43 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 25, 2014, 11:19:15 am
In fact all the revolutions in the history of mankind had been plotted and financed by the NATO.
I was always suspicious towards Spartacus when I watched tv-series about him. How it was possible that an ancient dude could speak English with Murrican accent? Damn NATO agents everywhere!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 12:17:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 10:20:28 am
At Maidan, snipers could have been NATO commando,
Please tell us more about the highly secretive NATO commando.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 25, 2014, 12:45:12 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 25, 2014, 10:06:22 am
Every single time Putin speaks about "Protecting the Russian population", it makes me smile.
When you live 10+ years in a country, you work there, your kids were born there, you are not part of another country any more. Those are all Ukrainians, doesn't matter if they like it or not. When you see it that way, Putin is going against his own agenda:

Syria used chemical weapons on it's population? Too bad but none of our business.
Ukrainians storm government buildings in the East? Protect the innocent.

And then it's even more funny to see that the "German part of the internet" is full with Putin supporters with the same sick view like Panos described: "Wish we had a stronk lider like Putin!" Even worse, they are like Butan too, no reasoning with them at all.

It's funny how you start to accuse others of fascism but they you say something like this:

Quote
Those are all Ukrainians, doesn't matter if they like it or not.

That is why I stopped posting in this thread. There's a bit of fascist in each of us and it gets out when you least expect it and sometimes you can't control it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 12:56:33 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 25, 2014, 12:17:29 pm
Please tell us more about the highly secretive NATO commando.

They don't need to be so secret. Because the hostel was under protesters control. And then the new government just say shit about those snipers and people trust it without any proof. Just listen to what victims lawyer said about that.
So, you just need some foreign snipers who don't give a shit of ukrainians life, policemen or protesters. Do you think that Ukrainian police or military could do this ? I don't.
But a NATO commando is not my favorite option. Blackwater is known to shoot at civilians without any hang up. Plus, they do not belong to any army if they are catched.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 01:07:12 pm
Omg, its going to be long destroying all those poorly conceived arguments  :lol:


The first which really hurts my eye is :

Quote from: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 10:14:10 am
1. You are ignoring the nature of the protest. One was innitially an occupation of some square, which ended up flaring after repressions started. Another STARTED as armed small gangs occupying government buildings and THEN asking the crowds to come and save them.

O rly


23 february

13 march

16 march

Say again? And thats only one city on the half a dozen nerve points of post-Maidan.

Go back in your corner child.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 25, 2014, 01:10:12 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 25, 2014, 10:06:22 am
And then it's even more funny to see that the "German part of the internet" is full with Putin supporters with the same sick view like Panos described: "Wish we had a stronk lider like Putin!" Even worse, they are like Butan too, no reasoning with them at all.

It's mostly from extremes of the political spectrum who "support" Putin outside of Russia. Pseudo neo-chocolate chip cookies and far righters in Europe are totally wet with lust over Strongman Putin, ZOMG he's so dreamy and macho, and the far leftist Useful Idiots of the Soviet era were apparently nostalgic for a militarist authoritarian dictatorship to fawn over and defend. Then there's the acolytes of Alex Jones and the like, conspiracy theorists who see in it a challenger to the zionist NWO, so it can only be totes awesome. That last group contains both racist neo-chocolate chip cookies who think the "NWO"'s goals are complete eradication of "white" cultures through multiculturalism and moronic commies who think the goals are complete capitalist/colonialist control over the world's resources by evil greedy bankers.
These failures of thought have been well represented throughout this entire thread.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 01:18:17 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 01:07:12 pm
Omg, its going to be long destroying all those poorly conceived arguments  :lol:


The first which really hurts my eye is :


23 february

13 march

16 march

Say again?

Go back in your corner.
In my corner - a protest, which gathered 10k+ and lasted for fucking months. In your contrarian hipster corner - a 4k protest, which marched and then dispersed. mm... I think similar one was bought in Kiev, even a couple of times. And then there were BUNCH of interviews of funny bydlo guys, who were sincerely happy they got fed and paid by organizers. You are trying too hard to push putlers agenda, that both protests in Maidan and armed building capturing and separatist respublic declaration are the same, "peoples" protest. They are not. BTW - those earlier protests, even if with violence - I support, that IS democracy and people have right to do this. What they DO NOT have right to do is rob police stations, occupy government buildings and appoint onself governors, later declaring "civil war" when their bullshit gets called. If not for ruskies puting UNREASONABLE pressure on Ukraine and military support for the "troops" - this shit would have collapsed already.

Also - the thing you are doing is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring. Singling out something and then forgetting all the other crappy arguments you can't or don't want to drag, because you feel inside they are shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Cicero on April 25, 2014, 01:19:46 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 25, 2014, 11:19:15 am
In fact all the revolutions in the history of mankind had been plotted and financed by the NATO.
Oh really thats good to hear that NATO is still alive.

Who finance NATO ; tell me more about it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 01:20:50 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 01:18:17 pm
4k protest, which marched and then dispersed. mm... And then there were BUNCH of interviews of funny bydlo guys, who were sincerely happy they got fed and paid by organizers.


Are you for real?  :lol:

Worst attempt at undermining Eastern Ukraine protests I ever saw.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 25, 2014, 01:21:45 pm
Turkey does. It's all Turkey's fault. They are actually trying to reestablish dominance in the Balkans and destabilizing Ukraine is only the first step. I SEE IT SO CLEARLY NOW.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 01:23:03 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 01:20:50 pm

Are you for real?  :lol:

Worst attempt at undermining Eastern Ukraine protests I ever saw.
I wanted to ask the same question, but see... It does not sound even remotely funny, when posed to you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 01:26:22 pm
What if Butan is not retarded but just impressionable? Tovi and Butan are from the same clan, maybe Tovi just influenced him a lot. The mentally challenge of Tovi is just indisputable. :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 01:27:31 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 01:23:03 pm
I wanted to ask the same question, but see... It does not sound even remotely funny, when posed to you.

Your posts doesnt sound even remotely funny, when you just have to compare with wikipedia articles (which isnt really the best objective source of information, still) about whats happening.
Incredibly, it hipsteriandly contradicts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine) most of your points.


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Quote from: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 01:26:22 pm
What if Butan is not retarded but just impressionable? Tovi and Butan are from the same clan, maybe Tovi just influenced him a lot. The mentally challenge of Tovi is just indisputable. :oops:

I dont agree with the NWO theories, and truth be told we still have never spoken to each other about our involvement in this thread, quite bizarre I would add  :lol: but good job at adding your useful little childish pokes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Cicero on April 25, 2014, 01:29:32 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 25, 2014, 01:21:45 pm
Turkey does. It's all Turkey's fault. They are actually trying to reestablish dominance in the Balkans and destabilizing Ukraine is only the first step. I SEE IT SO CLEARLY NOW.
He is right.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 01:33:16 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 01:27:31 pm
Your posts doesnt sound even remotely funny, when you just have to compare with wikipedia articles (which isnt really the best objective source of information, still) about whats happening.
Incredibly, it hipsteriandly contradicts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine) most of your points.


(click to show/hide)


I dont agree with the NWO theories, and truth be told we still have never spoken to each other about our involvement in this thread, quite bizarre I would add  :lol: but good job at adding your useful little childish pokes.

One does not simply explains a concept of red herring fallacy to Butan... Fucking good luck in your hipster contrarian corner. Btw - I think its time to rename it to "putlers hipsterish contrarian corner", because your implied impartiality suce boules d'âne, "pardon my french" as they say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 01:39:11 pm
Quote from: WarLord on April 25, 2014, 01:26:28 pm
Wow, only reading and not posting in a thread for a longer time is really hard. I can't tell anymore if Butan is serious or trolling.

Tovi really believes in NWO and I can understand why to some extent, although it's just greedy human individuals and little groups of people, not a worldwide conspiracy.

I never said something else. That's why I appreciate when some countries resist to this "western" world Order (mostly Anglo-Saxon ).
Here in Europe were are more and more pissed of this North American supremacy. The way they spy us, the way the built EU just to force european to adopt liberal economy, the way they use NATO as a world police, altought they "fuck EU" (their own words) !
Here in France and in Germany, many people thinks we should form a continental alliance with Russia instead of USA. And at last, kick those Atlantists out.
 I do not say that Putin is better than Obama, it's not a question of individuals but the question to defend our geostrategic interests.
I fucking don't care to know who is the bad guy or the good guy in this story.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 01:42:06 pm
Maybe OdE has some kind of an IQ requirement. "Take this IQ test and if you score higher than 80... you're out."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 01:49:20 pm
Last time it was more like 136  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 01:55:40 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 01:49:20 pm
Last time it was more like 136  :rolleyes:
Fake.

Government approved number in russia is 146. Applies to percentage of participating voters in selected districts too! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 02:03:09 pm
The man behind the scene talkin


(Zbigniew Brzezinski)

Get it ? Next step is Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 25, 2014, 02:11:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 02:03:09 pm
The man behind the scene talkin


(Zbigniew Brzezinski)

Get it ? Next step is Russia.
Care to explain who this person is, why should I care and why should motivated and happy russian citizens (I mean - those that did not emigrate yet) be willing to object to corrupt totalitarian rule?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 02:28:39 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 01:49:20 pm
Last time it was more like 136  :rolleyes:
[uproarious laughter intensifies]
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 03:03:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 01:49:20 pm
Last time it was more like 136  :rolleyes:

Last time I passed IQ test I had 133 that is 3 points lower than yours. So basically you claim that you're more intelligent than me and ~98% of world's population.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Unless you took part on these easy websites where I could get more than 200 points.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on April 25, 2014, 03:08:10 pm
Did anyone read anywhere any news about OSCE monitors disappearing in Donetsk in the last couple of hours? I heard this happened, but so far no news on English part of Internet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 03:14:23 pm
Quote from: Corwin on April 25, 2014, 03:08:10 pm
Did anyone read anywhere any news about OSCE monitors disappearing in Donetsk in the last couple of hours? I heard this happened, but so far no news on English part of Internet.

Local news only tell that Ukrainian government lost any kind of connection with OSCE monitors in Donetsk. They suspect separatists of kidnapping them. No further info is given atm.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 25, 2014, 04:54:19 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 03:14:23 pm
Local news only tell that Ukrainian government lost any kind of connection with OSCE monitors in Donetsk. They suspect separatists of kidnapping them. No further info is given atm.
I wouldn't be surprised.

inb4 Tovi blaming it on NATO commandos to discredit brave freedom fighters in East Ukraine region :)

Quote from: Leshma on April 25, 2014, 12:45:12 pm
It's funny how you start to accuse others of fascism but they you say something like this:

That is why I stopped posting in this thread. There's a bit of fascist in each of us and it gets out when you least expect it and sometimes you can't control it.
I'd like you to show me where exactly I talked about fascism. I am kinda curious.

EDIT:
Link to the latest Yolostrovski-video, including a tiny statement on his return from "captivity":

https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-dispatch-twenty-nine (https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-dispatch-twenty-nine)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 25, 2014, 05:39:32 pm
Bolded the exact sentence. My personal opinion is the same, I do believe that the place where I reside is the place I belong. But I won't deprive others of having different opinion which is exactly what bolded sentence written by you does. Most importantly "like it or not, part".

But as I said, we're all fascist do a degree. It's a personal demon people choose to fight or embrace.

Funny thing is, while Oberyn is right about Putin's Russia having all characteristics of fascist state, so does USA. You think I'm talking rubish?

Let's take this definition from wiki, shall we?

Quote
Roger Griffin describes fascism as "a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism".[29] Griffin describes the ideology as having three core components: "(i) the rebirth myth, (ii) populist ultra-nationalism and (iii) the myth of decadence".

Also:

Quote
One common definition of fascism focuses on three concepts: the fascist negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism; nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture; and a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership.

Think there is no need to point the obvious traits both Russian and Greek society of today share (as demonstrated by Ivani4 and Panos respectively). As for USA:


I'm well aware that I'm jerk for connecting traits of a small group of people to the whole nation. But that's exactly what is done through this whole thread. Vovka's and Ivani4's opinion is amplified and attributed to all Russians while opinion of other Russians is often neglected and pushed aside, because it is ruining the picture of Big Bad Drunk Russian who wants to see whole world under his knees. Same can be done to pretty much any nation, based on special personas residing on this forum.

Don't think I forgot that Russia is the aggressor here and that most of other nations aren't. But does that gives us right to assume that all Russians are nationalists? If it does then all Germans and Austrians from 1930-1950 are just the same as einstein was. I can pick random Americans on this forums and make it so that every one of them is crazy lunatic who masturbates with his Colt and wants to see black American as his personal slaves.

Discuss this matter freely but please think a little bit before stamping the whole nation as evil. Maybe they just don't have enough strength to overcome those in power. And how could they, when not even other superpowers aren't able to do anything. What to expect of regular folks?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 25, 2014, 05:57:13 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 25, 2014, 04:54:19 pm
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-dispatch-twenty-nine (https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-dispatch-twenty-nine)
There are a lot of jokes about Yarush(right sector dude) visit card(02:18 on the video) which didn't burn in this cars:
http://fishki.net/1263322-luchshiie-fotozhaby-na-vizitku-jarosha.html
new high-tech armor:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 25, 2014, 06:18:32 pm
The sad thing here is that in Russia there is a lot of educated and intelligent people due to communism opening education for the masses.  It's just that the system and leadership is rotten. There is no antagonism between Ukrainians and Russians, except what Putin is trying to create. He simply wants a divided, weak and easily manipulated Ukraine on his doorstep.  And of course some Ukrainian elements rightly have become anti-russian because of the constant dominance through centuries. Putin is just creating more of them, which fits his plans perfectly.  Both Right Sector and Berkut are serving Putins plans.

A Russian friend of mine was just organizing a workshop in Kiev a week ago with no problems whatsoever.  As people, Russians and Ukrainians are almost the same and brothers and apparently that haven't changed much recently even with Putin's hardest efforts.

The best way to describe whats happening is that Russia is staging a grand theatre, a comedy ridiculing the hypocrite and schizophrenic/democratic west, at the same time punishing Ukraine into submission.

Of course the Russians themselves knows the government is lying, but it's just so much fun to see the Naive west bite the propaganda, again and again. A sweet sense of victory after 20 years of shame. Thats the buttons Putin is pushing.

Let me tell you this. EU is not a threat, and most of their directives would do amazing things to Russian society. Russia will anyway always be able to attain a special position protecting it from attacks on their vast land and resources. Yes, I think Russia should join EU under special exceptions like protection of industry and resources. :) It would definitely be better for the Russian people. 1000 times better than being under criminal oligarchs.

@Butan, you are a nice guy, but politically I think I know who you are. You are a Russian ex-pat, or from Russian ancestry living in France. The ex-pats are always the most extreme.. Go to Russia and see how fucked up it is for yourself.

@Tovi.. :D I just have to laugh, but people with weird theories just need to get out of the house and see how the world works for themselves. It's really no need for illuminati to describe the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 06:46:43 pm
Quote
violence - gun loving culture
nationalism - hatred towards immigrants
rebirth - glorious days of our founding fathers shall come again
decadence - USA is falling apart because of evil *insert*

what the fuck leshma
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 25, 2014, 07:58:51 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 25, 2014, 05:39:32 pm
Bolded the exact sentence. [...]
How is stating that one becomes part of a country as soon as one lived their a certain part of one's life, having children and fixed roots in that country fascism? :shocked:
Maybe I am just too stupid to see the connection but I just fail to see it.

I still stand behind that view though. When you lived for decades in a country, you work there, your children were born there, you own/build a house there, a car bought there, you're paying taxes there, use their bureaucratic apparatus, you are a citizen of that country. Imho you can't have all those things in country A and still consider yourself citizen of country B.
That is why I said that they are all Ukrainians in my book, doesn't matter how often they say otherwise.

Nope, don't see fascism anywhere. :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 08:11:49 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 03:14:23 pm
Local news only tell that Ukrainian government lost any kind of connection with OSCE monitors in Donetsk. They suspect separatists of kidnapping them. No further info is given atm.

There are many kind of intelligence like:  language (i'm not so good as you can see), music, kinesthetic, memory, introspection, empathy, logic (IQ), spatial location etc.
So, I don(t give a fuck of IQ. It just helps to make logical deductions...

Zbigniew Brzezinski is the man who whisper to the ears of the american presidents since Carter. He established the Containment strategy (initiated by George Kennan), wich consist to maintain central Asia (mainly Russia, China and Iran) under pressure. That explain Vietnam war, support to Taiwan, Pakistan, war in Afghanistan, destabilization in Caucasus, Ukraine, the extend of NATO toward east etc.
He created the Trilateral Commission. And now he's working with John Kerry. He doesn't like Russia, and especially Putin.
It's not a "theory" boys, that's history and actual geopolitic. I'm 40 yo,and it takes years to get solid culture in this domain. You can laugh like stupid kids, I really don't care.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 08:26:44 pm
Wait, Tovi is 40? He's even more retarded than I thought. It would've been somewhat excusable for a dumb impressionable kid to be spouting this crap, but...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 09:09:19 pm
Let me see, you must be 14 or something like that no ? I'm loosing my time here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:14:50 pm
Never ever divulge any personal information Tovi, its at best useless at worst food for trolling  :P


Quote from: Xant on April 25, 2014, 12:13:33 pm
The Maximum Retard compares NATO forces on Ukraine's border to Russia's forces on Ukraine's border... like... what? Wat. Wut. I wonder if Ukraine is worried about NATO forces.. I wonder if Ukraine is complaining about them.. or.. oh.. wait... is Ukraine actually ASKING for them? Yes, yes it is.


Since you're going full retard on my full retard, are Russian ASKING for russian troops to man the border to Ukraine? Yes, yes they are.

To bring seriousness back into the game, the point was, labelling russian movement on russian territory an invasion, should then give reason to label foreign allied forces (allied because asked for, good job cpt obvious) doing movement on ukraine territory worse than an invasion. Get it mister asshole?

Since one is irrelevant, so is the other, use your irony detector sometimes. I though after reading so many "insightful" comments of yours you should have detected this one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 25, 2014, 09:23:38 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:14:50 pm
Never ever divulge any personal information Tovi, its at best useless at worst food for trolling  :P
Considering the nonsense he wrote in this thread, there is no need for troll food.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 25, 2014, 09:24:21 pm
Yeah, US geopolitics are all about making the neighbours of Russia hate it. So very hard that. Especially since all those countries don't already hate Russia for being such a nice and non-exploitative neighbour, that is totally not attempting to screw everyone over at every opportunity. There was also never such a thing as Cold War or a reaction against Taliban. Also, evul NATO is forcing itself east, imposing itself unto the unwilling eastern european countries, that are totally not afraid of a particular country, that totally did not occupy them for 40+ years not so long ago. Tovi, you are a real smart fellow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 25, 2014, 09:26:13 pm
Quote
foreign allied forces (allied because asked for, good job cpt obvious) doing movement on ukraine territory worse than an invasion

While statement itself is at least doubtful, what allied forces on Ukraine territory do you mean?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:27:43 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 25, 2014, 09:24:21 pm
Yeah, US geopolitics are all about making the neighbours of Russia hate it. So very hard that. Especially since all those countries don't already hate Russia for being such a nice and non-exploitative neighbour, that is totally not attempting to screw everyone over at every opportunity. There was also never such a thing as Cold War or a reaction against Taliban. Also, evul NATO is forcing itself east, imposing itself unto the unwilling eastern european countries, that are totally not afraid of a particular country, that totally did not occupy them for 40+ years not so long ago. Tovi, you are a real smart fellow.

Yeah, Russian geopolitics are all about making the neighbours of USA hate it. So very hard that. Especially since all those countries don't already hate USA for being such a nice and non-exploitative neighbour, that is totally not attempting to screw everyone over at every opportunity. There was also never such a thing as Cold War or a reaction against Tchetchen. Also, evul CSTO is forcing itself west, imposing itself unto the unwilling western european countries, that are totally not afraid of a particular country, that totally did not occupy them for 40+ years not so long ago. x guy, you are a real smart fellow.


Works too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on April 25, 2014, 09:28:08 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 10:20:28 am
At Maidan, snipers could have been NATO commando, but I think it's more some guys from Blackwater (and, oh yes, CIA like them very much).

Just watch my video 2 posts before : the bullets were exactly the same (police and rioters). You can't say that was Iaku's men job.


edit : here it is in english

Well, it is from Monitor, a left-wing polit broadcast. The Problem is, they can make great reports but somtimes they are too eager to uncover a scandal.
They will not tell you all of the facts but only the ones that are usefull for their agenda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 25, 2014, 09:30:12 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:27:43 pm
Yeah, Russian geopolitics are all about making the neighbours of USA hate it. So very hard that. Especially since all those countries don't already hate USA for being such a nice and non-exploitative neighbour, that is totally not attempting to screw everyone over at every opportunity. There was also never such a thing as Cold War or a reaction against Tchetchen. Also, evul CSTO is forcing itself west, imposing itself unto the unwilling western european countries, that are totally not afraid of a particular country, that totally did not occupy them for 40+ years not so long ago. x guy, you are a real smart fellow.


Works too.
Are you on drugs?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:44:12 pm
Depends, is reading this thread for too long at a time is considered as being on drugs? Feels so sometimes  :mrgreen:

Quote from: serr on April 25, 2014, 09:26:13 pm
While statement itself is at least doubtful, what allied forces on Ukraine territory do you mean?

Will answer same time as Kafein interrogation on firearms in maidan... seems like I must be the mythbuster of this event  :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 09:46:05 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:14:50 pm
Since you're going full retard on my full retard, are Russian ASKING for russian troops to man the border to Ukraine? Yes, yes they are.
I really hope you're trolling. Nobody can be that stupid, not even with your below 80 IQ.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:48:56 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 25, 2014, 09:46:05 pm
I really hope you're trolling. Nobody can be that stupid, not even with your below 80 IQ.

Sometimes, Xant, just sometimes... god. It's hard to facepalm hard enough. That post is a joke, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 25, 2014, 09:55:51 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 08:11:49 pm
Zbigniew Brzezinski is the man who whisper to the ears of the american presidents since Carter. He established the Containment strategy (initiated by George Kennan), wich consist to maintain central Asia (mainly Russia, China and Iran) under pressure. That explain Vietnam war, support to Taiwan, Pakistan, war in Afghanistan, destabilization in Caucasus, Ukraine, the extend of NATO toward east etc.
He created the Trilateral Commission. And now he's working with John Kerry. He doesn't like Russia, and especially Putin.
It's not a "theory" boys, that's history and actual geopolitic. I'm 40 yo,and it takes years to get solid culture in this domain. You can laugh like stupid kids, I really don't care.
tl;dr version Zbigniew Brzezinski is the head of NWO.  8-)
P.S. Shocked about 40 too. Although my father is 50+, my uncle is 60+ , but they both think that Russia should simply annex Ukraine & send all banderovtsi into woods. Simple propaganda overdose, I suppose, happens when you watch Russian TV everyday.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 25, 2014, 10:14:05 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:48:56 pm
Sometimes, Xant, just sometimes... god. It's hard to facepalm hard enough. That post is a joke, right?
Nope, and it's no coincidence either that everyone in this thread thinks you and Tovi are retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 25, 2014, 11:04:40 pm

 :mrgreen:

This guy is a little form of my personal entertainment. He's like a mini Alex Jones.

Also similar tone to some of you guys in this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 26, 2014, 12:13:25 am
Thanks for that. Made me crack a smile  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 26, 2014, 12:26:51 am
Quote from: Xant on April 25, 2014, 06:46:43 pm
what the fuck leshma

Sounds awful and incredibly dumb, doesn't it? Just like your opinion or troll prank on holocaust denial.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 26, 2014, 12:43:36 am
Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:27:43 pm
Yeah, Russian geopolitics are all about making the neighbours of USA hate it. So very hard that. Especially since all those countries don't already hate USA for being such a nice and non-exploitative neighbour, that is totally not attempting to screw everyone over at every opportunity. There was also never such a thing as Cold War or a reaction against Tchetchen. Also, evul CSTO is forcing itself west, imposing itself unto the unwilling western european countries, that are totally not afraid of a particular country, that totally did not occupy them for 40+ years not so long ago. x guy, you are a real smart fellow.


Works too.
How about.... FUCKIN NO. It does not work. Let me check, for how many years in past century were your parents and you repressed for expressing bullshit like this by a particular country? 2 or 3 during WW2. Versus 50+ in my country. Dont be a fucking smart ass and act as if you know shit. You don't. You are a silly contrarian hipster, who can't face the fact, that he is wrong. Because "OMG NO PROOF MOON LANDING DID NOT HAPPEN".

Exactly - when facepalm is not enough...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 26, 2014, 02:00:28 am
It's amusing to know that both Butan and Tovi are French and relate that to what they say here. As a "neighbour" and speaking the same language I have had the occasion of learning about French people probably more than other people here do, without being French myself. Of course disclaimer, the following will be absurdly reductory.

I view many French people to either have nostalgia or even the illusion of still being a great power. This is the recurring theme among the euroskeptic French mainly. The amusing part of it is that the ruling class has grown out of this bubble, only keeping up the grand discours for show, but the population isn't that fast. Hence unlike the UK, France isn't outright sabotaging the EU. Just a little bit outside of euroskeptics, you have the basic leftists that resent the fact that the EU as a whole is more liberalist than socialist, and certainly a lot more liberal than France will ever be and has ever been. The right wing in France is made up almost entirely of conservatives, hence it's not about one or the other party winning an election, France is plainly not liberal. They also resent their poor economic health against more liberal countries of similar size and development such as the UK and Germany. More importantly, the US is hated for its capitalism and every enemy of the US can only be a good guy. French european leftists do not understand why the EU is not more like France politically but believe that it would if the people in the EU were better represented, hence push for a more geopolitically independant EU that would be strong enough to fight evil capitalism.

Quote from: Butan on April 25, 2014, 09:27:43 pm
Yeah, Russian geopolitics are all about making the neighbours of USA hate it. So very hard that. Especially since all those countries don't already hate USA for being such a nice and non-exploitative neighbour, that is totally not attempting to screw everyone over at every opportunity. There was also never such a thing as Cold War or a reaction against Tchetchen. Also, evul CSTO is forcing itself west, imposing itself unto the unwilling western european countries, that are totally not afraid of a particular country, that totally did not occupy them for 40+ years not so long ago. x guy, you are a real smart fellow.


Works too.

All those West-Germans beg to differ. They had Americans building a fucking wall to prevent them joining the East, right ? Also the US had to repress lots of revolts in Western Europe during the Cold War, sometimes even with tanks, right ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 26, 2014, 02:29:20 am
Amusing how you're trying to find the straw in a purposedfully mirror text of a silly quote of Ptx.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 26, 2014, 07:21:17 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 01:49:20 pm
Last time it was more like 136  :rolleyes:

Quote from: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 03:03:50 pm
Last time I passed IQ test I had 133 that is 3 points lower than yours. So basically you claim that you're more intelligent than me and ~98% of world's population.

IQ wank thread?

http://www.iqout.com (http://www.iqout.com)

One try only. Cattell scale, so anyone below 150 is clinically retarded. Good luck.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 26, 2014, 07:54:35 am
A time limit? Screw that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 26, 2014, 08:39:12 am
Quote from: Butan on April 26, 2014, 02:29:20 am
Amusing how you're trying to find the straw in a purposedfully mirror text of a silly quote of Ptx.
No, it WAS amusing, how you tried to do a joke, than had to explain it and then try irony and then have to explain it again. There IS an irony somewhere here :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 26, 2014, 08:46:40 am
Quote from: Paul on April 26, 2014, 07:21:17 am
IQ wank thread?

http://www.iqout.com (http://www.iqout.com)

One try only. Cattell scale, so anyone below 150 is clinically retarded. Good luck.

(click to show/hide)



I'm stoopid :(

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 26, 2014, 10:00:53 am
Quote from: Molly on April 26, 2014, 08:46:40 am
I'm stoopid :(

(click to show/hide)

Actually we use this test to determine if individuals possess the minimum ability to fit into respective staff positions.

minimum score: job [example person(s)]
≥ 90 : NA Admin [Rumblood]
≥ 100 : Scene Manager [Fips, Teeth]
≥ 110 : Professional Forum Troll: [Panos, Smootherich, Xant]
≥ 120: Forum Moderator: [Son of Odin]
≥ 130: EU Admin [Thomek]
≥ 140: DTV VIP [Viscount, Vivi]
≥ 150: Item Team Member [San, Tydeus]
≥ 160 : Dev [Fasader, Urist]
Full Score after hacking website: Overlord [chadz, cmp, Harald]

Do you want to be a moderator?

Warning! Content of this post may not be true.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 26, 2014, 10:01:09 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 26, 2014, 12:26:51 am
Sounds awful and incredibly dumb, doesn't it? Just like your opinion or troll prank on holocaust denial.
You have no idea what you're talking about. As usual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 26, 2014, 10:39:11 am
Quote from: Paul on April 26, 2014, 10:00:53 am
Actually we use this test to determine if individuals possess the minimum ability to fit into respective staff positions.

minimum score: job [example person(s)]
≥ 90 : NA Admin [Rumblood]
≥ 100 : Scene Manager [Fips, Teeth]
≥ 110 : Professional Forum Troll: [Panos, Smootherich, Xant]
≥ 120: Forum Moderator: [Son of Odin]
≥ 130: EU Admin [Thomek]
≥ 140: DTV VIP [Viscount, Vivi]
≥ 150: Item Team Member [San, Tydeus]
≥ 160 : Dev [Fasader, Urist]
Full Score after hacking website: Overlord [chadz, cmp, Harald]

Do you want to be a moderator?

Warning! Content of this post may not be true.
It may not be true but It seems awkwardly believable :3
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 10:59:41 am
Quote from: Paul on April 26, 2014, 07:21:17 am
IQ wank thread?

http://www.iqout.com (http://www.iqout.com)

One try only. Cattell scale, so anyone below 150 is clinically retarded. Good luck.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Those numbers are strangely high, that option below (Stanford-Binet) with your 140 points looks more realistic. Anyway it's more intelligent than 99% of population.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 26, 2014, 12:33:39 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 26, 2014, 07:21:17 am
IQ wank thread?

http://www.iqout.com (http://www.iqout.com)

One try only. Cattell scale, so anyone below 150 is clinically retarded. Good luck.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

What's the deal with shape-based IQ tests and text-based? I always score much lower in shape-based ones than i would in any text-based one :/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 26, 2014, 01:33:18 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 26, 2014, 08:39:12 am
how you tried to do a joke, than had to explain it and then try irony and then have to explain it again.

Quote please?

I believe we caught the man on drugs ptx.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 26, 2014, 01:40:46 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 26, 2014, 12:33:39 pm
What's the deal with shape-based IQ tests and text-based? I always score much lower in shape-based ones than i would in any text-based one :/
Shapes better if your mother language is not engrish, don't need to translate those damn foreign words.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 26, 2014, 01:52:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 26, 2014, 02:29:20 am
Amusing how you're trying to find the straw in a purposedfully mirror text of a silly quote of Ptx.

You have a history of arguing such ridiculous statements, hence why I supposed that wasn't a joke.

So if it's a joke... you agree with PTX then ?

Quote from: [ptx] on April 26, 2014, 12:33:39 pm
What's the deal with shape-based IQ tests and text-based? I always score much lower in shape-based ones than i would in any text-based one :/

ur dum
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 26, 2014, 02:03:32 pm
Well, there is some obvious parallelism possible, I'll let you work out which ones else it turns out in an empteeth useless arguing  :D

I dont agree on PTX quote except if he is joking a bit himself. Dont think he is  :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on April 26, 2014, 03:13:00 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 26, 2014, 10:00:53 am
≥ 100 : Scene Manager [Fips, Teeth]
:|

(click to show/hide)

I have never done a test that made me feel more like an absolute retard than this one. God, what a nightmare. You're a smart lad Paul, that is an impressive score. Please just make this into an IQ wank thread because the last 5 pages only made my head hurt because of facepalm.

Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 10:59:41 am
Those numbers are strangely high, that option below (Stanford-Binet) with your 140 points looks more realistic. Anyway it's more intelligent than 99% of population.
It's a different scale that allows more differentiation, 161 Cattell is 140 Stanford. Apparently I have 127 Stanford, damn I thought it was more mid 130. This felt like rocket science though compared to any other crappy IQ tests I have done.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 26, 2014, 03:32:07 pm
This is the real IQ test. Used to take one in elementary school. Can't bother to do it now, too lazy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 26, 2014, 08:04:39 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10790298/In-Slavyansk-not-even-the-threat-of-war-can-stop-a-wedding.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 26, 2014, 08:06:50 pm
IQ tests past a certain age are not "accurate". You get most accurate numbers in tests you make pre school, so unless you're numbers are from that period you all are just waving your cocks for nothing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 26, 2014, 08:09:06 pm
The point is online IQ-test are bullshit. Most are just feel good test that make money with giving overly high scores and then offering a detailled report for payment. The real test is if you are clever enough to not fall for it. IQOUT is different and mostly done for research reasons but even they only use a small aspect of IQ-tests and are thus not a valid test(which they admit). A real IQ-test has to be done with a certified psychologists and under controlled conditions or else it goes into the trash. I never done one but I guess I'm in the 115-125 range because I got a STEM degree but also know many people that are a lot smarter than I am. But even then in my experience in the real world work ethic and reliability beats raw IQ most of the time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on April 26, 2014, 08:46:17 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 26, 2014, 08:06:50 pm
IQ tests past a certain age are not "accurate".
Why? Isn't the result on a proper IQ test when you are 40 a good measure of your IQ at 40?

This test is more of a pattern recognition test, which is not everything there is to IQ. IQ isn't everything there is to intelligence either. This test is however quite a cleverly designed test which seems to do quite a job of zeroing in on your ability to solve pattern puzzles quickly, which is linked to general logical ability. Can't hurt if those self-proclaimed 130+ IQ badasses like Tovi and DaveUKR take this test to back-up their dickwaving.

Quote from: Paul on April 26, 2014, 08:09:06 pm
I guess I'm in the 115-125 range because I got a STEM degree but also know many people that are a lot smarter than I am.
120 IQ would mean that out of a group of 10 random people there is one guy smarter than you on average. Perhaps you might have very specific intelligence, but reaching the 0,6th percentile on a test that is most likely made by a non-average demographic is quite something, you might be doing yourself a little short here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 26, 2014, 08:47:36 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 26, 2014, 08:06:50 pm
IQ tests past a certain age are not "accurate". You get most accurate numbers in tests you make pre school, so unless you're numbers are from that period you all are just waving your cocks for nothing.
Total bullshit. Look it up. Or provide some research that proves what you're saying.

Because it's the opposite. IQ tests done as a child are not accurate, but tend to correlate. IQ tests get accurate after you're 18+, because you stop changing so much.

I don't even understand the logic behind what you're saying -- IQ tests test your current IQ. As a result, obviously current tests are more accurate than tests done 20 years ago. It's like saying "you get more accurate numbers about what a person's height will be at pre-school than you do after he's fully grown." Que?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 26, 2014, 08:52:16 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 25, 2014, 03:03:50 pm
So basically you claim that you're more intelligent than me

Well, actually this isn't hard to believe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 08:53:02 pm
Quote from: Falka on April 26, 2014, 08:52:16 pm
Well, actually this isn't hard to believe.

Haters gonna hate
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 26, 2014, 09:13:25 pm
Btw, Dorota Rabczewska "Doda", polish music "star", confirmed 166 IQ :P

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 26, 2014, 09:30:03 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 26, 2014, 08:09:06 pm
The point is online IQ-test are bullshit. Most are just feel good test that make money with giving overly high scores and then offering a detailled report for payment. The real test is if you are clever enough to not fall for it. IQOUT is different and mostly done for research reasons but even they only use a small aspect of IQ-tests and are thus not a valid test(which they admit). A real IQ-test has to be done with a certified psychologists and under controlled conditions or else it goes into the trash. I never done one but I guess I'm in the 115-125 range because I got a STEM degree but also know many people that are a lot smarter than I am. But even then in my experience in the real world work ethic and reliability beats raw IQ most of the time.

As I said, in elementary school we took a very similar test like the one you linked. But we had 45 minutes and there were a lot more tasks to solve (think it was 60). Organized by psychologists of course, but we weren't graded by any known scale. Results were in form of number of correctly solved tasks. I was 2nd best in generation, having scored 57 just like another girl from my class. In high school we did one of those language based tests after school in the late evening. Wasn't too shabby but completely failed memory part (no wonder, I was half sleeping by that time).

Imho, IQ tests are waste of time. If someone wants to prove himself, better work on something awesome than wasting time doing silly tests. Being intelligent is just one smaller part of being successful, rest is hard work. If you're lazy person it doesn't matter how intelligent you are, you are going to fail.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 10:15:29 pm
Life is successful when you've got a Zlisch-a-like hater who minuses all your single posts and you don't even know who the guy is. Who is this Porthos? Just curious. The guy seems to never post here useful, just reads.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 26, 2014, 10:20:55 pm
It was a test for a job (I did'nt get the job because I was potentially rebelling against my hierarchy...), but with another test at 10 yo, I had the same result.
Maybe IQ helps to bring arguments  instead of saying : "wut wut ? You retarded hipster/conspirationist/french/terrorist/nazee/zionist/pedophil/nigga (choose one), I don't want to improve my political culture, let's watch cartoon on TV ! lol "
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 26, 2014, 10:47:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 10:15:29 pm
Life is successful when you've got a Zlisch-a-like hater who minuses all your single posts and you don't even know who the guy is.

Now u're gonna make thread like this one: http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/mature-nords/ ?
Quote from: DaveUKR
Hello, guys. I wanted to stop flame wars and I personally stopped posting in this section in Nords threads. I also asked Andswaru to ask his members to stop these forum flamewars and stop giving me random minuses to my posts. He promised to talk to his members and stop this. One day passes and I see my infamy growing more and more. Guess what happens? Yes, Nordic Kids™ attacked my renown/infamy ratio.

Just visit this link http://forum.meleegaming.com/profile/?area=showposts;u=1815 and look at any of the last posts and you'll see minuses from at least 2 of Nords to each of my posts (sometimes other Nords do that aswell or other UIF forum warriors).
(click to show/hide)

Uh, maybe just try to ask him to stop giving u minuses if u care so much...

Quote from: DaveUKR
You can continue giving me minuses, I don't care if I have lots of them

Oh, right, I forgot, u don't care  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 11:42:36 pm
Quote from: Falka on April 26, 2014, 10:47:55 pm
Now u're gonna make thread like this one: http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/mature-nords/ ?
Uh, maybe just try to ask him to stop giving u minuses if u care so much...

Oh, right, I forgot, u don't care  :lol:

What do you mean "care so much"? I don't care about minuses, I care about reasons why people give them to me. Also it's quite amusing that some people including you care about me so much that they even find some old threads  :D And yes, I still think that giving minuses to posts just to give minuses show some social problems of the one who does it. You're roleplaying girls so good that you even play their periods, you have my credits for that.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 26, 2014, 11:45:36 pm
Downvotes are a nasty thing. Even I get all tingly inside and want to chop someone's head off after seeing that blinking red minus to my post. As you all know, I'm the only user of these forums who's practically unaffected by post voting system.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on April 27, 2014, 12:02:43 am
Dave, there are few people on this forum who care about minuses more than you. Also, do this test, I wanna see how someone with an IQ of 133 does.

http://www.iqout.com
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:24:18 am
Hundreds of Greystone mercenaries (ex-Blackwater/Academi) are actually at Odessa. They are slowly incorporated in Ukraine special forces to provoke troubles with pro-russian protesters (by shooting at them).
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov revealed that CIA director John Brennan was in Kiev. One of his advisors told the newspaper Vzgliad that Brennan had not come to oversee the "anti-terrorist" operations conducted by the Ukrainian authorities, but to seek information and rescue twenty Greystone Ltd mercenaries of whom there has been no news.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 27, 2014, 12:30:31 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 11:42:36 pm
And yes, I still think that giving minuses to posts just to give minuses show some social problems of the one who does it.

But.. how you can know the difference between "giving minuses to posts just to give minuses" and giving them cause you don't like a post?  :?

Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 11:42:36 pm
You're roleplaying girls so good that you even play their periods, you have my credits for that.  :lol:

Yup, I'm roleplaying girl cause I borrowed a nickname from my favourite book's character and have girl as an avatar. If I didn't know better I'd say your IQ is 233 not only 133.

Btw,
Quote
The result of the test

By the answers you submitted your IQ is

31

The same or a better result is reached by

99.81% of the people taking the test.

 :cry: :cry: :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 27, 2014, 12:34:32 am
I dont think they have interest into provoking Russia, only Russia does atm, because Ukraine isnt yet NATO member officially so if they are using false flag operation to justify a NATO intervention it will look bad even if they have all the needed morale justification.

At least no interest on the short-term, even though making sure Ukraine hates Russia is a way to make sure they join NATO forever and act as buffer.

But if Putin never directly intervene or occassionally and locally, the Ukrainians deaths by Ukrainians soldiers will be mostly a big hit for internal public order for at least a generation...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:50:21 am
Russia wants federalism in Ukraine, not annexion. But they can reach this goal by pacific protests. The only way to avoid this could be a civil war.
Beyond that, the goal is to isolate Putin in the international relationships. And then to destabilize Russia by encouraging riots and opposition.

War is not really an option...just an accident.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 01:03:06 am
Quote from: Falka on April 27, 2014, 12:30:31 am
But.. how you can know the difference between "giving minuses to posts just to give minuses" and giving them cause you don't like a post?  :?

I might be using those magical 233 IQ to analyse it. And I don't know the difference because some people don't like the post because it's made by me and that's it. I think your time in Zlisch's clan influenced you somehow. If I was insane about my numbers in reputation I would not speak on forums like I do and wouldn't say what I say. When you have your honest opinion then you always have people who get offended, become your haters and so on. But it's just me. Or do you really think that I posted that to make haters stop minusing my posts? That's the last thing that is going to work in this world. That's like trying to get the bull away from you waving a red tissue.

Quote from: Falka on April 27, 2014, 12:30:31 am
Yup, I'm roleplaying girl cause I borrowed a nickname from my favourite book's character and have girl as an avatar. If I didn't know better I'd say your IQ is 233 not only 133.
Yet you still picked to roleplay girls or does Witcher only have female characters? Nice excuse. I don't blame you, I just find it weird.

Quote from: Teeth on April 27, 2014, 12:02:43 am
Dave, there are few people on this forum who care about minuses more than you. Also, do this test, I wanna see how someone with an IQ of 133 does.

http://www.iqout.com

cba. IIRC I passed this test years ago and what I remember that I had much higher result than on my average because of that scale. Also it's not that difficult as it might look, most of tasks are extremely easy, you just need to see numbers and that's it. I've never had problems with these IQ tests because I always liked that kind of tasks and I even asked my parents to pay for additional logical courses while being a child (from 6 to 9 y.o.). After some certain rampage on them I managed to get extremely ridiculous genius numbers like over 160 but that happened only because I've basically passed most of known tasks in IQ tests and it took much less effort to recognise the answer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 27, 2014, 01:07:23 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:24:18 am
Hundreds of Greystone mercenaries (ex-Blackwater/Academi) are actually at Odessa.
Blackwater is still known as Academi, not Greystone...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 01:08:57 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:50:21 am
Russia wants federalism in Ukraine, not annexion. But they can reach this goal by pacific protests. The only way to avoid this could be a civil war.

They can't. Just look into numbers and tell me how many people in Ukraine want federalisation even in the pro-Russian regions it's not even a majority.
The only reason why Russia wants federations inside Ukraine is to annex more lands in a more "legal" way. I don't know how can't some certain people see these obvious things. I'm not really interested in your opinion but I can't really believe you're that stupid because it's too long to be trolling or a joke. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:24:18 am
Hundreds of Greystone mercenaries (ex-Blackwater/Academi) are actually at Odessa.

Oh seriously. How come that I live there and don't know it? And you live thousands of kilometres away from me and you know it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 27, 2014, 01:26:20 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 01:03:06 am
I think your time in Zlisch's clan influenced you somehow.

Um, I wasn't in his clan?

Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 01:03:06 am
Or do you really think that I posted that to make haters stop minusing my posts?

Yeah, I think that when you, as you said it, "asked Andswaru to ask his members to stop giving you random minuses to your posts" you wanted them to stop minusing your posts. Weird, isn't it? But if u really don't care aboute minuses then why do u check who downvoted your posts and make posts about it?

Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 01:03:06 am
Yet you still picked to roleplay girls or does Witcher only have female characters? Nice excuse. I don't blame you, I just find it weird.

To be honest I have no idea what do you mean by roleplaying girls, playing with female chars and having female name? That's what you call "roleplaying girls"? Hm...  :? Are u a member of Mensa?

PS. I'm a girl IRL.

PS2.
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 01:03:06 am
I even asked my parents to pay for additional logical courses while being a child (from 6 to 9 y.o.).

6 years old Dave comes to his dad: "Daddy, pls pls pls! pay for additional logical courses for me!"  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 27, 2014, 03:17:45 am
Quote from: Falka on April 27, 2014, 01:26:20 am
PS. I'm a girl IRL.
photo!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on April 27, 2014, 05:16:35 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2014, 10:15:29 pm
Life is successful when you've got a Zlisch-a-like hater who minuses all your single posts and you don't even know who the guy is. Who is this Porthos? Just curious. The guy seems to never post here useful, just reads.
Chill, dude, I'm downvoting (aswell as upvoting) not only your posts, so you're not special :rolleyes::
(click to show/hide)
I do not post here anything 'useful', cos I am not a politologist, or a political analyst and I don't pretend to seem like the smartest guy. I don't get the news from here, and, of course, not generate them either. I read this topic just to understand how people see the situation from their point of view and ofc to watch some daily forum drama. Anyways this topic is now more about some IQ e-peen contest or some rubbish like your whining, so I don't know what useful I could contribute in this matter.
Ah, and I'm downvoting your posts simply because I just don't find them to be any intelligent nor interesting to read. Most part of your posts is basically trying to randomly insult someone, who disagree with you, or typical anti-Putin mantras. Such kind of biased attitude (if Putin says 2+2=4, so it's =5, or even if it is =4, anyways, Putin, obviously, just trying to indoctrinate us somehow... etc) and scornful attitude towards your opponents, that's why I mostly dislike you (not real you, but your forum incarnation) and your posts. Anyways, I'm surprised that it gives you moral discomfort. If so, just ignore it, I don't know you at all, and have nothing against you personally. Probably, you're a cool guy irl, who just taking some (political or personal) shit too serious. Cheers and big hug, mate :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Olwen on April 27, 2014, 06:13:31 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Jews, illuminatis and freemasons conspiration !

Btw, everyone knows there's only 1 way to unite europe and avoid internal fights ...
(click to show/hide)

PS:
Quote from: Falka on April 27, 2014, 01:26:20 am
PS. I'm a girl IRL.

tits or gtfo
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 27, 2014, 09:13:06 am
Back to topic:

What about those OSCE dudes being held captives?
Any news on that one?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 27, 2014, 09:14:28 am
Gunmen refuse to release European observers seized in eastern Ukraine
 (http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-standoff-continues-in-eastern-ukraine-20140426,0,3029367.story#axzz304JPXZ9C)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 09:17:57 am
Quote from: Xant on April 27, 2014, 01:07:23 am
Blackwater is still known as Academi, not Greystone...
Greystone is a subsidiary of Academi. They are around 300 in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 27, 2014, 09:37:35 am
Yolostrovsky <3

Quote
‘I Had It Pretty Easy, Because I Was Let Go’: Simon Ostrovsky On His Detention in Sloviansk

By Simon Ostrovsky
April 25, 2014 | 12:00 pm

On Thursday, armed gunmen who held me prisoner for three nights and three days released me into the streets of Sloviansk, in eastern Ukraine. My release was as unexplained as my capture.

On Monday night I was pulled out of a car at a checkpoint, then blindfolded, beaten, and tied up with tape. After spending hours alone on the floor of a damp cell with my hands tied behind my back and a hat pulled over my eyes, I was led into a room where I was accused of working for the CIA, FBI, and Right Sector, the Ukrainian ultra-nationalist group.

When I refused to give the password to my laptop, I was smacked in the arm with a truncheon. When I was asleep on the floor, masked men came to wake me up and tell me how no one would miss me if I died, and then kicked me in the ribs as they left.

But as it turns out, I had it pretty easy, because I was let go.

In the nights that I was held captive, a dozen other nameless detainees were ferried in and out of the cellar of the Ukraine state security (SBU) building by the pro-Russia militants who had taken it over. Some were journalists, some were drunks, and others were Ukrainian activists stupid or brave enough to visit what’s become a stronghold for Russian nationalists within Ukraine.

I only got to know a few of them. Most had been in that cellar far longer than I had. They had been there for up to two weeks, and are most likely still there now.

Their names are Artyom Deyneha, a local computer programmer who was caught setting up a webcam opposite the building where we were being held; Serhiy Lefter, a freelance journalist who was abducted on the main square in Sloviansk in broad daylight; Vadim Sukhonos, a deputy in the Sloviansk city council; and Vitaly Kovalchuk, a former member of the Euromaidan self-defense corps, who by his own admission came to Sloviansk with a group of Right Sector radicals who tried and failed to capture guns from pro-Russia militants.

After I was released, I found out that the leader of the pro-Russia forces in Sloviansk, Vyacheslav Ponomarev, told journalists that we were being held as “bargaining chips” in negotiations with the interim authorities in Kiev. I don’t yet know what he got for my release, but I hope it wasn’t very much, because no one should be allowed to take hostages no matter what their political demands are.

Everyone being illegally held in that damp cellar, or any of the other buildings controlled by the self-proclaimed “Donetsk People’s Republic,” should be released or handed over to the police immediately.
https://news.vice.com/articles/i-had-it-pretty-easy-because-i-was-let-go-simon-ostrovsky-on-his-detention-in-sloviansk (https://news.vice.com/articles/i-had-it-pretty-easy-because-i-was-let-go-simon-ostrovsky-on-his-detention-in-sloviansk)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 27, 2014, 09:51:05 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 09:17:57 am
Greystone is a subsidiary of Academi. They are around 300 in Ukraine.
No it's not, it's stand alone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 27, 2014, 10:28:36 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 09:17:57 am
They are around 300 in Ukraine.
Oh no!
(click to show/hide)
First it was Spartacus, now you telling me that Leonidas is NATO agent too?!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 27, 2014, 11:24:41 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 09:17:57 am
Greystone is a subsidiary of Academi. They are around 300 in Ukraine.
Being so wise and NOT trolling you sure do have reliable sources... Could you quote them?

After funny shit like this - do not expect to be treated as anything else but a clown.

Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:50:21 am
Russia wants federalism in Ukraine, not annexion. But they can reach this goal by pacific protests. The only way to avoid this could be a civil war.
Beyond that, the goal is to isolate Putin in the international relationships. And then to destabilize Russia by encouraging riots and opposition.

War is not really an option...just an accident.
And please, do tell me, WHY THE FUCK SHOULD UKRAINE CARE WHAT rUSSIA WANTS? There is this concept, "independence", which allows a country to do what it wants inside its borders, barring some agreements, which it comes into. Ukraine had an agreement with russia about country borders and mutual respect thereof. We all saw what it is worth from russian side... Then there is this deal of Geneva, which was followed by everyone EXCEPT the russia AGAIN. There is no point in agreeing about ANYTHING with a partner like this.

Regarding destabilization - the only person to finally destabilize russia will be putler the great, leader of glorious slav race, doing politics like this and screwing russias interests and eventually ending up isolated. And then, when he can't stem the internal problems anymore - he will find some outsider to pick on in order to divert populace attention from the real shit hitting the fan internally. Was exceptionally funny how the UN ambasador said security council was "divided", when in fact everyone was calling BS on russia, and the only "division" was russia pushing its bullshit on everyone else  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 27, 2014, 12:35:02 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 26, 2014, 08:47:36 pm
Total bullshit. Look it up. Or provide some research that proves what you're saying.

Because it's the opposite. IQ tests done as a child are not accurate, but tend to correlate. IQ tests get accurate after you're 18+, because you stop changing so much.

I don't even understand the logic behind what you're saying -- IQ tests test your current IQ. As a result, obviously current tests are more accurate than tests done 20 years ago. It's like saying "you get more accurate numbers about what a person's height will be at pre-school than you do after he's fully grown." Que?

whoa 3 pages since I posted yesterday lol.

well don't want to drag this offtopic but just to respond to this shortly.

my facts come from a psychologist I know and the reasoning is you basically learn how to overcome and solve some problems by experience in life so maybe some tests will be solved accuretley based only on that, I'm not saying it's the 20 point difference or anything but if we are talking about really accurate results they are the best at a younger age, your IQ will not get significantly higher or lower over the years but again I say the most accurate results you get that way. I heaven't done one since high school so I wouldn't know how they are today or how much they have changed over the years, I might be wrong.

people are throwing around some quite large numbers here so I just wanted to point that out, your results might not be 100% accurate and don't mean much tbh  :D

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 27, 2014, 12:47:41 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 27, 2014, 12:35:02 pm
and the reasoning is you basically learn how to overcome and solve some problems by experience in life so maybe some tests will be solved accuretley based only on that, I'm not saying it's the 20 point difference or anything but

I don't think your age by itself influence the outcome of IQ tests - in the way you describe it, but there's - or at least can be - another issue. These tests are pretty similar so after a bit of practice probably you'd be able to get a higher score than when you make it for the first time. But maybe I'm wrong  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 01:29:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 27, 2014, 11:24:41 am
Being so wise and NOT trolling you sure do have reliable sources... Could you quote them?


Good question. What about yours ? You look so self confident and agressive. Only religious fanatics talks like that. Your source must come from God himself. No ? Tv maybe ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 27, 2014, 02:02:52 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 01:29:15 pm
Good question. What about yours ? You look so self confident and agressive. Only religious fanatics talks like that. Your source must come from God himself. No ? Tv maybe ?


Troll. Spouting "Facts" and then asking someone else to disprove you. You said it first, so it's your job to prove your argument.

Whatever, you're probably some CIA mind experiment that fucked up and you don't realize it. That's why you get a hard on for NWO,CIA, USA. You are actually a big supporter, but your brainwashing was done this way so that you actually bash NWO even though you're on their books as a registered sex offender. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 27, 2014, 02:24:31 pm
No need to be russian  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 27, 2014, 04:55:04 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 27, 2014, 11:24:41 am
(click to show/hide)
mate ur are barking in every ur post like a mad dog, I almost can see how the drool running down by your monitor and snot dripping on ur keyboard. I think you need to rest
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Trikipum on April 27, 2014, 04:57:56 pm
That is a shitload of riot police hell. This is from last month in spain :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_548071971&feature=iv&src_vid=v66ePcRgcrU&v=LWTnN0EEUhI

Its funny how most media didnt cover it at all. If you dislike riot police... you gonna love this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 05:10:45 pm
Same in France. Neo nazee are a big theath in France, but at Maidan they are some romantic cool guys.
 I can't remember when mainstream medias gave me a real information, something different than regular "news" or just repeating what main politicians says. But recently they seems more cautious about new power in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 27, 2014, 05:11:09 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on April 27, 2014, 12:35:02 pm
whoa 3 pages since I posted yesterday lol.

well don't want to drag this offtopic but just to respond to this shortly.

my facts come from a psychologist I know and the reasoning is you basically learn how to overcome and solve some problems by experience in life so maybe some tests will be solved accuretley based only on that, I'm not saying it's the 20 point difference or anything but if we are talking about really accurate results they are the best at a younger age, your IQ will not get significantly higher or lower over the years but again I say the most accurate results you get that way. I heaven't done one since high school so I wouldn't know how they are today or how much they have changed over the years, I might be wrong.

people are throwing around some quite large numbers here so I just wanted to point that out, your results might not be 100% accurate and don't mean much tbh  :D
Well, that psychologist doesn't know what he's talking about. IQ is like height and its measurement in this regard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 06:21:49 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 27, 2014, 05:11:09 pm
Well, that psychologist doesn't know what he's talking about. IQ is like height and its measurement in this regard.

Your analogy isn't accurate. Our means of evaluating IQ are not perfect, unlike measuring height. You can ask the subject to perform some exercises and extrapolate IQ from how those exercises were performed, but IQ represents more than only the ability to do those exercises. Unlike height which is nothing more than the actual measurement of height. Hence if your evaluation of those exercises is biaised because for example education helps getting a better score, you won't get a good measure of IQ. This is why age can deteriorate the quality of a test. IQ being relatively stable and a measurement of intelligence, not of education or experience, it's easier to find out the IQ of someone that has less education and experience.

To make a better analogy, passing IQ tests as a child is better than doing it as an adult just as much as measuring your height is better when you are sure you have no shoes on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: djavo on April 27, 2014, 06:25:42 pm
This thread makes me to actually pray for world war 3
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 06:32:07 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 27, 2014, 04:55:04 pm
mate ur are barking in every ur post like a mad dog, I almost can see how the drool running down by your monitor and snot dripping on ur keyboard. I think you need to rest

I actually like it much more when you're serious. Upvoted your post for this.

Let's get back to the topic. I regret about my posts that made me a part of offtopic flamewar, that only made me look retarded.

OSCE monitors are shown to public, they seem to be imprisoned there by separatists in former SBU building. What I hate about current government is they don't do anything to solve this conflict and are following Kremlin's scenario.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 27, 2014, 06:33:04 pm
What should they do in your opinion?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 06:36:22 pm
What would Iran do ?

That's what they got to do. Do like Iran.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 06:36:49 pm
Quote from: serr on April 27, 2014, 06:33:04 pm
What should they do in your opinion?

Either stop ATO (anti-terrorist operation) or carry it in a proper way. What they do now is just useless: they send some small amount of troops there that is likely to give up or desert under the pressure of that amount of separatists. 3 SBU officers got captured today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 27, 2014, 06:42:24 pm
Yes, what they do looks terribly stupid, but I think it's more of terrible organization than of wrong decisions.
As for decisions - I wouldn't want to be on their place, because I really have no idea how is it possible to solve this problem. Sadly, it seems, they don't have any ideas too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 27, 2014, 07:12:20 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 06:21:49 pm
Your analogy isn't accurate. Our means of evaluating IQ are not perfect, unlike measuring height. You can ask the subject to perform some exercises and extrapolate IQ from how those exercises were performed, but IQ represents more than only the ability to do those exercises. Unlike height which is nothing more than the actual measurement of height. Hence if your evaluation of those exercises is biaised because for example education helps getting a better score, you won't get a good measure of IQ. This is why age can deteriorate the quality of a test. IQ being relatively stable and a measurement of intelligence, not of education or experience, it's easier to find out the IQ of someone that has less education and experience.

To make a better analogy, passing IQ tests as a child is better than doing it as an adult just as much as measuring your height is better when you are sure you have no shoes on.
There's nothing wrong with my analogy. You can measure a kid and get his accurate height, and you'll also get an idea how tall he will be when he's fully grown. Exactly the same as an IQ test. An intellectually stimulating environment helps with IQ, but I don't understand why you think that matters. Your height is what it is, so is your IQ. You don't report your height as "inaccurate" because you didn't eat enough proteins as a child, so your adult height is lower than it would be otherwise. Age only makes the test more accurate as it fluctuates a lot less.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 07:35:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 27, 2014, 07:12:20 pm
There's nothing wrong with my analogy. You can measure a kid and get his accurate height, and you'll also get an idea how tall he will be when he's fully grown. Exactly the same as an IQ test. An intellectually stimulating environment helps with IQ, but I don't understand why you think that matters. Your height is what it is, so is your IQ. You don't report your height as "inaccurate" because you didn't eat enough proteins as a child, so your adult height is lower than it would be otherwise. Age only makes the test more accurate as it fluctuates a lot less.

The problem is that measuring IQ is not trivial. This is the reason why there are many, many ways to do it. With age, your ability in a given IQ test can change, but that doesn't mean that your IQ changed in the same way. An "intellectually stimulating environment" will change your actual IQ slightly, but it will also greatly affect your ability at taking those IQ tests, which is not the same thing. The test appears to be more accurate because with age your ability at the tests stabilizes and the variance decreases. However, you have no way to measure how your education (education is not IQ) or your experience (experience is not IQ) are biasing the test. Those tests cannot directly measure IQ, but they measure your ability at solving problems that involve more than IQ. For example, text based tests also rely on language. All those things that are not IQ influence the test one way or another, and this bias is smaller the younger you are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 27, 2014, 07:37:37 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 06:36:49 pm
Either stop ATO (anti-terrorist operation) or carry it in a proper way. What they do now is just useless: they send some small amount of troops there that is likely to give up or desert under the pressure of that amount of separatists. 3 SBU officers got captured today.
Unfortunately - while I agree that this shit needs to be resolved - I think the indeciveness or restraint (not sure which) shown by current government IS the reason you don't have Vovka and Tovi barking from putlers tank outside your window...
IMO, while this is not an ideal scenario - I would put the "occupied" towns under total lockdown (there are like... 15?20 towns affected? I believe UKR military should be able to surround them, no?), with minimal allowance of in/out traffic (food provisions/sickly/elderly/kid's allowed + OSCE monitors, IF the green-men vouch for their safety, all others basically not), cut communications, limited/cut internet. Organized president election, offer the towns to vote, IF THEY WANT, bring them voting tickets and other stuff, offer them to take it peacefully,all on tape and publicized to no end. Hell - I think it would be resonable to set up voting posts at the blockades, to allow voters to come IF THEY WANT TO and vote. When elections are done - those few hundreds of thousands will likely remain without their chance to vote, but compared to 40 mil cizitens - thats while unfortunate - equally required and healty step to be taken.

Then - after government is legit and set up properly - offer one more amnesty, then move in en-masse and continue siege around the occupied buildings only with guys inside considered criminals, fair and square, all on cams and again - direct fucking feed to interwebs for the likes of Butan to be happy. Oh, and so Tovi can identify his CIA/NATO/Blackwater troops ! :)

Quote from: Vovka on April 27, 2014, 04:55:04 pm
mate ur are barking in every ur post like a mad dog, I almost can see how the drool running down by your monitor and snot dripping on ur keyboard. I think you need to rest
Serious lack of witty detected  :!: :? :!:  Also - I took a break during the weekend, some proper sauna, some proper chillaxing... thank you for caring, so cute! :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 07:54:34 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 06:32:07 pm
Either stop ATO (anti-terrorist operation) or carry it in a proper way. What they do now is just useless: they send some small amount of troops there that is likely to give up or desert under the pressure of that amount of separatists. 3 SBU officers got captured today.

At Kramatorsk aerodrom some snipers shot and killed 4 civilians. Then milita came but hopefully had no fight with the troop (mainly rookies with old T54). But snipers disappeared.
So, what I think (I can be wrong of course), is that those snipers were here to provoke a bloodbath with unprepared and young soldiers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 27, 2014, 08:01:35 pm
Pretty sure they have been some civilians killed since ATO began, I would like full articles on them though because at this point its very easy to just say "some died around there".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 08:06:50 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 27, 2014, 08:01:35 pm
Pretty sure they have been some civilians killed since ATO began, I would like full articles on them though because at this point its very easy to just say "some died around there".

If those armed people claim that they're civilians then there were casualties in them for sure. But on the other hand I can't believe that ATO participants killed some real civilians as they don't seem to kill anyone, even those they should.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 27, 2014, 08:27:12 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 07:35:16 pm
The problem is that measuring IQ is not trivial. This is the reason why there are many, many ways to do it. With age, your ability in a given IQ test can change, but that doesn't mean that your IQ changed in the same way. An "intellectually stimulating environment" will change your actual IQ slightly, but it will also greatly affect your ability at taking those IQ tests, which is not the same thing. The test appears to be more accurate because with age your ability at the tests stabilizes and the variance decreases. However, you have no way to measure how your education (education is not IQ) or your experience (experience is not IQ) are biasing the test. Those tests cannot directly measure IQ, but they measure your ability at solving problems that involve more than IQ. For example, text based tests also rely on language. All those things that are not IQ influence the test one way or another, and this bias is smaller the younger you are.
If your IQ test result changes, your IQ changes. An IQ test is a test that tests IQ. The result of the IQ test is your IQ.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 27, 2014, 08:48:58 pm
Pro-Russia forces free Swedish military observer held in Ukraine (http://www.therecord.com/news-story/4487148-pro-russia-forces-free-swedish-military-observer/)

Quote from: www.therecord.com
It wasn't immediately clear why only Johansson was released, but the pro-Russian insurgents had accused the group of being NATO spies and Sweden isn't a member of the trans-Atlantic alliance.

NATO spies, everywhere!

Pro-Russia rebels hold German-led observers hostage (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94bbc390-cd4e-11e3-99be-00144feabdc0.html)

Quote from: ft.com
Pro-Russia rebels have confirmed they are holding a German-led military observer team as hostages in the separatist stronghold of Slavyansk, as they announced plans to proceed with a referendum on May 11 to create a breakaway Donbass People’s Republic in eastern Ukraine.
(click to show/hide)

There, I copied the article because the website is stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 27, 2014, 10:54:19 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2014, 06:32:07 pm
What I hate about current government is they don't do anything to solve this conflict and are following Kremlin's scenario.

Call me conspiracy nut-case all you want, but I have strong faith that your current goverment is puppet controlled by USA. That is perfect explanation why they are doing nothing. USA will let Russia cross the line (we don't know what that means) and then USA will attack. That is exactly what Kerry is saying every time he opens his mouth. And unlike some Russians in here who think their country is invincible, I don't believe in that. USA just wants good enough excuse to finally deal with Russia the way they want, without anyone interfering or raising an eye. It's not like it hasn't happened before. Two planes controlled by terrorists crash two buildings full of people, USA decides to rape a whole country for years. Like they like to say it, one american citizen is worth million citizens of other countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 27, 2014, 11:05:27 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 27, 2014, 10:54:19 pm
Call me conspiracy nut-case all you want, but I have strong faith that your current goverment is puppet controlled by USA. That is perfect explanation why they are doing nothing. USA will let Russia cross the line (we don't know what that means) and then USA will attack. That is exactly what Kerry is saying every time he opens his mouth. And unlike some Russians in here who think their country is invincible, I don't believe in that. USA just wants good enough excuse to finally deal with Russia the way they want, without anyone interfering or raising an eye. It's not like it hasn't happened before. Two planes controlled by terrorists crash two buildings full of people, USA decides to rape a whole country for years. Like they like to say it, one american citizen is worth million citizens of other countries.

And then China helps USA and rapes Russia from behind (cuz why fight a country far away that's ur main trade partner) and becomes king of Asia and 2nd strongest nation next to USA.

#VIVACHINA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on April 27, 2014, 11:36:26 pm
The only problem is nukes  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 11:36:48 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 27, 2014, 08:27:12 pm
If your IQ test result changes, your IQ changes. An IQ test is a test that tests IQ. The result of the IQ test is your IQ.

You don't seem familiar with what a measurement is. The result of an IQ test is not your IQ, it's a measurement of you IQ.

Quote from: Leshma on April 27, 2014, 10:54:19 pm
Call me conspiracy nut-case all you want, but I have strong faith that your current goverment is puppet controlled by USA. That is perfect explanation why they are doing nothing. USA will let Russia cross the line (we don't know what that means) and then USA will attack. That is exactly what Kerry is saying every time he opens his mouth. And unlike some Russians in here who think their country is invincible, I don't believe in that. USA just wants good enough excuse to finally deal with Russia the way they want, without anyone interfering or raising an eye. It's not like it hasn't happened before. Two planes controlled by terrorists crash two buildings full of people, USA decides to rape a whole country for years. Like they like to say it, one american citizen is worth million citizens of other countries.

Well, Putin is more annoying than Hussein was. I mean, I feel sorry for the Kuweiti and Kurds, but Russia's neighbours are easier to relate to. Not talking about Afghanistan which was a shithole anyway. The problem is that Russia has nukes, I don't see how more tensions can result in anything positive. And it's not like tensions strengthen Putin's opposition at home.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 27, 2014, 11:47:35 pm
All this IQ wank talk, I did some random test and it gave me 121. x_x

It was a mensa hungarIQa test.

However, I totally despise the time limit because this shouldn't be a race. Missed at least 2-3 questions because of that.
Chatting on steam and browsing media player inbetween doesn't help either lol. Talk about how unfocused I can be.

I like to sit down and see how these things work in my own pace, and not just rush it through. What's the point?

penopt tajm limit suka bljat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 27, 2014, 11:51:54 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 11:36:48 pm
You don't seem familiar with what a measurement is. The result of an IQ test is not your IQ, it's a measurement of you IQ.
Yes, just like the result of measuring your height is not your height, it's the measurement of your height.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on April 28, 2014, 12:23:55 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 11:36:48 pm
You don't seem familiar with what a measurement is. The result of an IQ test is not your IQ,

It is. "An intelligence quotient is a score derived from one of several standardized tests designed to assess intelligence". But IQ isn't the same as inteligence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 28, 2014, 01:18:53 am
Quote from: Xant on April 27, 2014, 11:51:54 pm
Yes, just like the result of measuring your height is not your height, it's the measurement of your height.

Which doesn't mean IQ can be measured as easily as height.

Quote from: Falka on April 28, 2014, 12:23:55 am
It is. "An intelligence quotient is a score derived from one of several standardized tests designed to assess intelligence". But IQ isn't the same as inteligence.

If you pass several IQ tests you are supposed to get the same results, but you won't because those tests don't tell the whole story and are based on different tasks, even though they are tuned to give the same results. You can consider people have several IQ scores based on each test but then the idea of IQ loses much of its point. Of course the existence of a "real IQ" is merely an illusion too, but that doesn't change the fact that it's supposed to measure something that doesn't change with time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _schizo321437 on April 28, 2014, 01:20:35 am
IQ is too low to be measured...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 28, 2014, 02:33:13 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 27, 2014, 10:54:19 pm
Call me conspiracy nut-case all you want, but I have strong faith that your current goverment is puppet controlled by USA. That is perfect explanation why they are doing nothing. USA will let Russia cross the line (we don't know what that means) and then USA will attack. That is exactly what Kerry is saying every time he opens his mouth. And unlike some Russians in here who think their country is invincible, I don't believe in that. USA just wants good enough excuse to finally deal with Russia the way they want, without anyone interfering or raising an eye. It's not like it hasn't happened before. Two planes controlled by terrorists crash two buildings full of people, USA decides to rape a whole country for years. Like they like to say it, one american citizen is worth million citizens of other countries.

It's not a conspiracy, it's obvious that current government listens to USA in the same measure as Yanukovych listened to Russia. But I doubt it's USA's plan going on now, USA is not ready in any way to start a conflict with Russia. If they wanted to start it - they would start in 2008 when Russia was much weaker and annexed some lands from Georgia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 28, 2014, 05:53:02 am
BP and Shell exposed as US prepares first warning shot against Russia's oil and gas industry (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10791167/BP-and-Shell-exposed-as-US-prepares-first-warning-shot-against-Russias-oil-and-gas-industry.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on April 28, 2014, 06:29:56 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 27, 2014, 11:36:48 pm

Well, Putin is more annoying than Hussein was. I mean, I feel sorry for the Kuweiti and Kurds, but Russia's neighbours are easier to relate to. Not talking about Afghanistan which was a shithole anyway.

Im sorry but no, Afghanistan wasn't too bad before the soviet invasion tbh... These days it really is a third world shithole controlled by muslim extremists, but it wasn't prior to the 60's and the religious nutcases being GIVEN the country by the USSR's complete innability to wage a guerilla war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on April 28, 2014, 07:49:13 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 27, 2014, 10:54:19 pm
Call me conspiracy nut-case all you want, but I have strong faith that your current goverment is puppet controlled by USA. That is perfect explanation why they are doing nothing. USA will let Russia cross the line (we don't know what that means) and then USA will attack. That is exactly what Kerry is saying every time he opens his mouth. And unlike some Russians in here who think their country is invincible, I don't believe in that. USA just wants good enough excuse to finally deal with Russia the way they want, without anyone interfering or raising an eye. It's not like it hasn't happened before. Two planes controlled by terrorists crash two buildings full of people, USA decides to rape a whole country for years. Like they like to say it, one american citizen is worth million citizens of other countries.

Haha wow, reading a random page of this thread to see current attitudes of our lovely EU posters, and a not zero amount of people think that USA is intentionally trying to start a nuclear war. 

Just the basic point of view here is funny. Ukraine's government would need USA/NATO support to fight Russia in any serious way. If USA sends troops (or ICBM's, according to Leshma I guess) they are bloodthirsty warmonger puppeteers. If USA instead tries to use diplomacy, sanctions, international organizations to pressure Russia and humanitarian aid to Ukraine to support their independence while avoiding death in a hot military conflict.. they are still bloodthirsty warmonger puppeteers. Not that NATO/USA is going to really go in swinging over this anyways.. everyone has fucking nukes (except Ukraine, lol oWned)

In fact, the idea of spinning any of this to be centrally about USA is really out there. USA is a Bad Actor on the international stage, but this has almost nothing fucking to do with America. Blaming USA for Russia annexing and destabilizing neighboring countries? That's some RT level brainwashing. Replace USA with "THe JewS" and it makes just as much sense, and much more believable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 28, 2014, 08:44:16 am
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html

so now u can blame chocolate chip cookie from germany  :P

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/xwtb3c/the-empire-takes-back---tank-tricks
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 28, 2014, 09:05:22 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on April 28, 2014, 07:49:13 am
Haha wow, reading a random page of this thread to see current attitudes of our lovely EU posters, and a not zero amount of people think that USA is intentionally trying to start a nuclear war. 

Just the basic point of view here is funny. Ukraine's government would need USA/NATO support to fight Russia in any serious way. If USA sends troops (or ICBM's, according to Leshma I guess) they are bloodthirsty warmonger puppeteers. If USA instead tries to use diplomacy, sanctions, international organizations to pressure Russia and humanitarian aid to Ukraine to support their independence while avoiding death in a hot military conflict.. they are still bloodthirsty warmonger puppeteers. Not that NATO/USA is going to really go in swinging over this anyways.. everyone has fucking nukes (except Ukraine, lol oWned)

In fact, the idea of spinning any of this to be centrally about USA is really out there. USA is a Bad Actor on the international stage, but this has almost nothing fucking to do with America. Blaming USA for Russia annexing and destabilizing neighboring countries? That's some RT level brainwashing. Replace USA with "THe JewS" and it makes just as much sense, and much more believable.

bolded makes my skin crawl, seen way too many wars started like this.

I think Siria situation showed USA can't pressure Russia into anything any more, but other way around, things have changed quite a bit on the international stage, mind you I don't find that positive, merely stating my opinion.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 28, 2014, 09:13:39 am
Quote from: Christo on April 28, 2014, 05:53:02 am
BP and Shell exposed as US prepares first warning shot against Russia's oil and gas industry (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10791167/BP-and-Shell-exposed-as-US-prepares-first-warning-shot-against-Russias-oil-and-gas-industry.html)
Quality read actually... Explained how this whole "banks wont do business with you" actually CAN and probably WILL hurt russias oil sector. The shitty part is - need to save some cash for optional heating system, besides gas...  :?

Quote from: Prpavi on April 28, 2014, 09:05:22 am
bolded makes my skin crawl, seen way too many wars started like this.

I think Siria situation showed USA can't pressure Russia into anything any more, but other way around, things have changed quite a bit on the international stage, mind you I don't find that positive, merely stating my opinion.
I think you are only partially right here. Syria is a fucked up scenario: dictator fighting extremists basically. Supporting one or another is terribad in any case. While in Ukraine - US and EU would be supporting a fledgling democratic movement, which is trying to get rid of influence by the good old bad russia with a dictator at its head. I think its a bit different, even if russia would like it to be viewed in the same light.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on April 28, 2014, 09:18:35 am
Quote from: Vovka on April 28, 2014, 08:44:16 am
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/22/germany-helped-prep-russia-for-war-u-s-sources-say.html

so now u can blame chocolate chip cookie from germany  :P

the information itself is pretty old and a bit strange, too.

right after the polite people have shown up in crimea rheinmetall has reported that they have a contract to build a training centre and that they are willing to fulfil it.
and then a week later it was banned by the government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 28, 2014, 09:35:51 am
Quote from: Mala on April 28, 2014, 09:18:35 am
the information itself is pretty old and a bit strange, too.
right after the polite people have shown up in crimea rheinmetall has reported that they have a contract to build a training centre and that they are willing to fulfil it.
and then a week later it was banned by the government.
  it reminded me a note about how Russian received academic award, while he lives in America, his father is Jewish and his mother was Georgian  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on April 28, 2014, 10:25:58 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 28, 2014, 09:13:39 am

I think you are only partially right here. Syria is a fucked up scenario: dictator fighting extremists basically. Supporting one or another is terribad in any case. While in Ukraine - US and EU would be supporting a fledgling democratic movement, which is trying to get rid of influence by the good old bad russia with a dictator at its head. I think its a bit different, even if russia would like it to be viewed in the same light.


wasn't talking about the situation inside the country but the recent intervention US and it's allies had planned to "bring democracy" only to be vetoed by Russia. ofc China vetoed every possible solution by western goverments too but Russia also flexed some muscile. 10/15 years ago think the outcome would have been different, we would have another Iraq on our hands. Funny how everybody stopped talking about Syria yet a massive humanitarian crysis is going on as we speak there, but I guess Ukraine and one missing plane are top news now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 28, 2014, 12:18:09 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on April 28, 2014, 07:49:13 am
If USA instead tries to use diplomacy, sanctions, international organizations to pressure Russia and humanitarian aid to Ukraine to support their independence while avoiding death in a hot military conflict..

That is perfectly fine, but I don't see USA stopping there. It's too good opportunity to pass on it. I also don't believe in large conflict anymore (known as WWII). USA will find some other way to enslave Russia. They are a perfect candidate for you guys to leech on next couple of decades.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 28, 2014, 12:21:46 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 28, 2014, 01:18:53 am
Which doesn't mean IQ can be measured as easily as height.
Which I never claimed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 28, 2014, 01:31:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 28, 2014, 09:13:39 am
I think you are only partially right here. Syria is a fucked up scenario: dictator fighting extremists basically. Supporting one or another is terribad in any case. While in Ukraine - US and EU would be supporting a fledgling democratic movement, which is trying to get rid of influence by the good old bad russia with a dictator at its head. I think its a bit different, even if russia would like it to be viewed in the same light.


Yanukovitch government was corrupt but still democratically elected, implying it was a dictatorship is at best propaganda at worst completely idiotic statement. I dont see how Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, since they changed no laws, just ousted the old government. If it was a real revolution surely they would change how the system works?

The only thing that changed in Ukraine, is which shithead will be able steal money from the people. Before it was Yanukovitch-Russia, now its Interim dudes-Europe, soon probably Poroshenko-Europe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 28, 2014, 01:41:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 28, 2014, 01:31:35 pm
Yanukovitch government was corrupt but still democratically elected, implying it was a dictatorship is at best propaganda at worst completely idiotic statement. I dont see how Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, since they changed no laws, just ousted the old government. If it was a real revolution surely they would change how the system works?

The only thing that changed in Ukraine, is which shithead will be able steal money from the people. Before it was Yanukovitch-Russia, now its Interim dudes-Europe, soon probably Poroshenko-Europe.
Implying, that elections and laws are the only things that a democracy make. :|
In any case, you took the wrong flame-bait, try harder.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 28, 2014, 01:54:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 28, 2014, 01:31:35 pm

Yanukovitch government was corrupt but still democratically elected, implying it was a dictatorship is at best propaganda at worst completely idiotic statement. I dont see how Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, since they changed no laws, just ousted the old government. If it was a real revolution surely they would change how the system works?
...completely ignoring the changes to the constitution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 28, 2014, 02:13:25 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 28, 2014, 01:41:57 pm
Implying, that elections and laws are the only things that a democracy make. :|

Yes, what else pray tell?


Quote from: Molly on April 28, 2014, 01:54:58 pm
...completely ignoring the changes to the constitution.

Returning to the 2004 consitution which tweaks the power balance between the presidency and the parliament is not a form of government reform.



Case in point : dont use the term dictatorship when speaking of a democracy except if you want to be seen as a retarded lobbyist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 28, 2014, 02:32:41 pm
Pro tip: Don't ignore reverting to a constitution which takes away power from the one single person who gained power before and then got chased out of the country.
Makes you look like a fool when stating "No changes to government!1!!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 28, 2014, 02:56:55 pm
I guess when France went from 4th to 5th Republic in 1958, we changed from a direct democracy (parliamentary republic) to a enlightened dictatorship (presidency republic), right?


Ukraine is a democracy, like France, for years. You can nitpick all you want, just stop using dictatorship accusation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on April 28, 2014, 03:03:39 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 28, 2014, 12:18:09 pm
That is perfectly fine, but I don't see USA stopping there. It's too good opportunity to pass on it. I also don't believe in large conflict anymore (known as WWII). USA will find some other way to enslave Russia. They are a perfect candidate for you guys to leech on next couple of decades.

That's actually what we have in store for Canada with the Keystone Pipeline and other initiatives. Canada and the United States together outproduce Russia or the Middle East with oil and natural gas, which is Russia's leverage over most of Europe. Poland is already calling to shift economic ties to North America for energy.

I don't even know what you are talking about or what conspiracy crap you buy into. Is it the Jews?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 28, 2014, 03:19:47 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ign7n03tXxw

Russia's "new special forces", revealed a year+ ago, the SSO (Sily spetsialnyh operatsii) are specialized in "illegal action abroad" and inciting problems in domestic politics in Russia's neighboring countries. Creating instability and destabilizing governments is what they do. Also described as "the troops that engage in war during peace time." And lots more stuff like that, introduced in "Vesti Nedeli" by Dmitri Kiseljov in 2013. Sure sounds a lot like the troops in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 28, 2014, 04:16:05 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 28, 2014, 02:56:55 pm
I guess when France went from 4th to 5th Republic in 1958, we changed from a direct democracy (parliamentary republic) to a enlightened dictatorship (presidency republic), right?


Ukraine is a democracy, like France, for years. You can nitpick all you want, just stop using dictatorship accusation.
My gad, BUTAN!!! You got half the point. I'm proud! :o

I say... countries, where 146% votes are possible ARE DEFINITELY democracies, because they have ELECTIONS! And no nitpicking is needed!  :rolleyes:

Also - READ AGAIN, or was that sentence structure too hard? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 28, 2014, 05:46:23 pm
In all democracy there is suspicions of frauds, I dont think its a crucial element in deserving the title of "dictatorship". Also I think the "146%" reference doesnt concern Ukraine  :wink:

But if you have proof that Ukraine elections were rigged in the past I would like to read it.
If the parliamentary election of 2012 is not legitimate to you, for example, it should be dissolved, not to be let in place to traffick the constitution of Ukraine, because they are all part of a corrupted past. And this corrupted past now have more power thanks to the new-old constitution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 07:32:22 pm
The USA's goal is not war against Russia. It's to make Russia a rogue state under embargo like Iran.
 Civil war or Coup is the final goal. That's why their sanction aims mainly Putin and people close to him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 28, 2014, 08:24:38 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 07:32:22 pm
The USA's goal is not war against Russia. It's to make Russia a rogue state under embargo like Iran.
Civil war or Coup is the final goal. That's why their sanction aims mainly Putin and people close to him.

Even if the final goal was something different, economical sanctions always aim where it hurts, where there is money, and a lot of people around Putin have money.
If they had something else in mind, they would still do the same => diplomatically and economically isolating your enemy. It cost almost nothing and it can hurt as much as wars if done right.

One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 28, 2014, 09:08:05 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 07:32:22 pm
The USA's goal is not war against Russia. It's to make Russia a rogue state under embargo like Iran.
 Civil war or Coup is the final goal. That's why their sanction aims mainly Putin and people close to him.
Hahaha, Tovi just keeps spewing more and more retarded garbage.

If that is indeed USA's goal, then why is Russia doing all of USA's work for it? Maybe, just maybe -- bear with me here Tovi, this is going to sound CRAZY -- it's possible... now, mind, I'm not saying it's likely or anything, but it's worth thinking about... that there's no conspiracy in this here particular case.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 09:24:38 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 28, 2014, 08:24:38 pm
Even if the final goal was something different, economical sanctions always aim where it hurts, where there is money, and a lot of people around Putin have money.
If they had something else in mind, they would still do the same => diplomatically and economically isolating your enemy. It cost almost nothing and it can hurt as much as wars if done right.

One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.

US fears Russia because it offers an alternative that China is not. For exemple : Snowden and world spying. Russia can counter US spies and can spy themselves ( Nuland phone chat). They can provides advanced weapons to countries like Syria or Iran. They offer an alternative internet without censorship (RuTube etc.), they can supply gas and oil to countries like China or India, they can launch military satellites. They try to avoid dollars paiements in international exchanges etc.
A strong Russia is a threat to the US world hegemony.
And they are already at economical war. When Visa and Mastercard initiated an embargo on Russia, Putin decided to create a new credit card system.
You can also remember when EU took the russian cash in Cyprian banks...
And, finally, Russia can now propose some "counter-propaganda" medias, as never seen before , since at least, 20 years. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 28, 2014, 09:43:13 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 09:24:38 pm
US fears Russia because it offers an alternative that China is not. For exemple : Snowden and world spying. Russia can counter US spies and can spy themselves ( Nuland phone chat). They can provides advanced weapons to countries like Syria or Iran. They offer an alternative internet without censorship (RuTube etc.), they can supply gas and oil to countries like China or India, they can launch military satellites. They try to avoid dollars paiements in international exchanges etc.
A strong Russia is a threat to the US world hegemony.
And they are already at war. When Visa and Mastercard initiated an embargo on Russia, Putin decided to create a new credit card system.
You can also remember when EU took the russian cash in Cyprian banks...
And, finally, Russia can now propose some "counter-propaganda" medias, as never seen before , since at last, 20 years.

Snowden is the most overrated thing happened in last years. Like what did he reveal? Only obvious things. Also alternative internet without censorship? There were made several laws that censor internet in Russia during last year or two which led to a lot of butthurt among website owners so they moved their websites out of RU domain area. Also Rutube is just bad, always a lot of technical issues.

Maybe you look it from your perspective. But from my perspective Russia is the only active threat for Ukraine now. We can discuss things a lot like how USA/EU/NATO threaten Ukraine and you might be even right about it but who cares about that if we have Russia grabbing territory now? Just put it to a simple analogy: Imagine that I'm Ukraine. I face a burglar but not a regular one, this one is special. His name is Russia, he's stabbing me with a knife and tries to get my kidney, 3 fingers and an eye. He doesn't really care if I will survive or not, he just wants that. Meanwhile he keeps repeating to me that I'm his brother and that these organs are not really mine because our parents give it to me so I bear them but I can't really hold them if they don't want to be inside of me. I can't fight because I don't have a knife and I was ill and still didn't rehabilitate, but now I've lost a lot of blood and a couple of fingers and still bleeding. And here comes Tovi saying "Dude, these American cigarettes will kill you one day". Even if I'll agree with you that the west is an enemy of Ukraine - would it change anything? Would it change the fact that Russia annexed Crimea and tries to destroy Ukraine? No. And this is what concerns me, not your conspiracy theories or whatever else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on April 28, 2014, 09:54:10 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 09:24:38 pm
They offer an alternative internet without censorship (RuTube etc.)

If people can spout out shit like you on a daily basis then our internet isn't censored.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 28, 2014, 10:04:13 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 28, 2014, 09:43:13 pm
Snowden is the most overrated thing happened in last years. Like what did he reveal? Only obvious things.

Now it is obvious, when we know it for certain. But without Wikileaks and Snowden, there is no way you could state it as obvious without being labeled as conspiracy freak.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 28, 2014, 10:27:22 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 28, 2014, 08:24:38 pm
One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.

That will come eventually, but not in a multipolar world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 10:48:47 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 28, 2014, 09:43:13 pm
Snowden is the most overrated thing happened in last years. Like what did he reveal? Only obvious things. Also alternative internet without censorship? There were made several laws that censor internet in Russia during last year or two which led to a lot of butthurt among website owners so they moved their websites out of RU domain area. Also Rutube is just bad, always a lot of technical issues.

Maybe you look it from your perspective. But from my perspective Russia is the only active threat for Ukraine now. We can discuss things a lot like how USA/EU/NATO threaten Ukraine and you might be even right about it but who cares about that if we have Russia grabbing territory now? Just put it to a simple analogy: Imagine that I'm Ukraine. I face a burglar but not a regular one, this one is special. His name is Russia, he's stabbing me with a knife and tries to get my kidney, 3 fingers and an eye. He doesn't really care if I will survive or not, he just wants that. Meanwhile he keeps repeating to me that I'm his brother and that these organs are not really mine because our parents give it to me so I bear them but I can't really hold them if they don't want to be inside of me. I can't fight because I don't have a knife and I was ill and still didn't rehabilitate, but now I've lost a lot of blood and a couple of fingers and still bleeding. And here comes Tovi saying "Dude, these American cigarettes will kill you one day". Even if I'll agree with you that the west is an enemy of Ukraine - would it change anything? Would it change the fact that Russia annexed Crimea and tries to destroy Ukraine? No. And this is what concerns me, not your conspiracy theories or whatever else.

Ok, I understand your point of vue. But, before Maidan affair, did Russia really threatened Ukraine ?
I just try to warn about Western goals. They (we...) don't want to help Ukraine. They want to use it against Russia, and loot his wealth. Maybe 10% of Ukrainians will become richer, others will only be our cheap labor slaves.
And, obviously, some Ukrainians are ok to become russians. You may think they are stupid, but only future will tell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 28, 2014, 11:12:25 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 10:48:47 pm
Ok, I understand your point of vue. But, before Maidan affair, did Russia really threatened Ukraine ?
I just try to warn about Western goals. They (we...) don't want to help Ukraine. They want to use it against Russia, and loot his wealth. Maybe 10% of Ukrainians will become richer, others will only be our cheap labor slaves.
And, obviously, some Ukrainians are ok to become russians. You may think they are stupid, but only future will tell.

Yes, before Maidan Russia threatened Ukraine multiple times, including Crimea. Tuzla conflict in 2003 (note that this happened years before Yuschenko became a president) just as an example. Russia seriously threatened Ukraine at least once in 2 years in 2000's. I was a teenager when this conflict in Tuzla took part but I clearly remember how Ukraine mobilized some forces and prepared the coast of Crimea for a possible invasion there. Of course it was more like a defensive show but still. Also 2008 during Russia-Georgia conflict Russia threatened Ukraine for helping Georgia and etc. I can't even count how many times Russia pressured Ukraine economically or with gas.

About Western goals. I clearly understand that and in this case I agree with you that West doesn't actually want to help Ukraine that much (economical and political sanctions = yes, military help = no). About cheap labour slaves: Ukrainian workers are not against it. A lot of Ukrainians work in Europe now and Ukraine is actually a good working power, Ukrainians work hard here so why not work for more money? I mean Ukraine could become a powerful country like Germany with an appropriate effort (huge territory, good climate, 45 millions of people, connected to sea, great ground and geographic position etc.).

About Ukrainians becoming Russians. Yes, only "some of them". I think that the only region that had a majority of people who wanted to join Russia was Crimea. But what about those who don't want? I don't want to call all those people who want to become a part of Russia stupid. Because most of them want to become citizens of Russia not because it would be better for them economically/politically etc. They just want to live in their homeland and for those people it's Russia. The only stupid people are those who believe that it would be much better in Russian occupied territories of Ukraine. Also, Crimea already suffers a lot because of lack of water. There is a collision between Ukraine and Crimea now as they can't make a contract. Ukraine is not against it but they will not make a contract with them as a part of Russia. On the other hand Crimeans don't want to make a deal as a part of Ukraine and don't pay their debts for water. So basically it's a circulus vitiosus. Current Crimea receives about 5% of water they used to receive. Also problems with electricity. So it's just all what I predicted and even described in this thread earlier.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 29, 2014, 07:15:11 am
One soldier dies from improvised bomb explosion in Donetsk region (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?one_soldier_dies_from_improvised_bomb_explosion_in_donetsk_region&objectId=437391&lang=en)

IED-s? Seriously..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 29, 2014, 07:54:38 am
Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2014, 07:15:11 am
One soldier dies from improvised bomb explosion in Donetsk region (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?one_soldier_dies_from_improvised_bomb_explosion_in_donetsk_region&objectId=437391&lang=en)
IED-s? Seriously..
yep ukranian army use ied and improvised tanks from tractors
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 09:42:28 am
Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2014, 07:15:11 am
One soldier dies from improvised bomb explosion in Donetsk region (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?one_soldier_dies_from_improvised_bomb_explosion_in_donetsk_region&objectId=437391&lang=en)

IED-s? Seriously..
Didn't you know? Locals are trained in explosive preparation and diversionary tactics. Mightily well trained.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 29, 2014, 09:44:11 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 09:42:28 am
Didn't you know? Locals are trained in explosive preparation and diversionary tactics. Mightily well trained.

Proof check please.

By locals you mean the separatists, right? I imagined a grandma learning how to make an improvised bomb after reading that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 29, 2014, 09:57:05 am
Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2014, 09:44:11 am
[...] I imagined a grandma learning how to make an improvised bomb after reading that.
Which isn't that far fetched considering that you find manuals on literally anything in the internet nowadays, including IEDs.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 10:05:05 am
Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2014, 09:44:11 am
Proof check please.

By locals you mean the separatists, right? I imagined a grandma learning how to make an improvised bomb after reading that.
Proofs... pft... If you do not believe me, you are WITH THEM  :!:  and I will TELL YOU NOTHING! :twisted:

ALL locals want to separate from the fasccisscsststss regime in Kiev, thus by definition they ALL are separatist. Thus by your standards - yes, even grandmas will be doing this. Although, given that at least SOME of them fought in WW2 - I think we may be in for a nasty surprise... :mrgreen:

Also </irony>.

In reality - this is what the special forces do, when there is no popular support for them on the ground and they have to sow chaos. Somehow I do not see separatists rushing to bomb their (possibly would be former) fellow countrymen eagerly given the indecisiveness/restraint being current status quo.

Quote from: Butan on April 28, 2014, 08:24:38 pm
Even if the final goal was something different, economical sanctions always aim where it hurts, where there is money, and a lot of people around Putin have money.
If they had something else in mind, they would still do the same => diplomatically and economically isolating your enemy. It cost almost nothing and it can hurt as much as wars if done right.

One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.
Lets see... laws and agreements need to be followed. Right? Rewinding to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances, stopping there for a while... fast forward to 2014 Crimea... fuck yeah, agreements and laws DO work, when there is russia involved :) I say... good for you for having such good ideas. Commendable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 29, 2014, 10:15:59 am
Aaaand we just hit another loophole.

Quote from: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 10:05:05 am
Proofs... pft... If you do not believe me, you are WITH THEM  :!:  and I will TELL YOU NOTHING! :twisted:

Asking for proof doesn't automatically mean that I don't believe you. Quite on the contrary, actually.

 Find the part where I said that you are incorrect. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 10:25:45 am
Some fresh stuff from Crimea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXTqcOE800
Locals rally in a PRO-RUSSIAN meeting, a cop from moscow arrives and tells them to disperse, they tell him roughly "its not moscow, we don't need you guarding us", he then calls Berkut support and promises to bring in organizers for questioning later.

Welcome to reality,
oops... there goes gravity russia.

Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2014, 10:15:59 am
Aaaand we just hit another loophole.

Asking for proof doesn't automatically mean that I don't believe you. Quite on the contrary, actually.

 Find the part where I said that you are incorrect. Good luck.
I assumed we are having a nice little ironic exchange of jokes. You know... like Vovka throws here from time to time.

And I'm definitely wrong. Ask Butan :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on April 29, 2014, 10:35:57 am
/thread ffs this is a circlejerk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 29, 2014, 11:02:40 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 10:25:45 am
(click to show/hide)
just another idiot who read about his rights in wikipedia, took video and posted it for other idiots  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 29, 2014, 11:16:09 am
Meanwhile, mayor of Kharkiv got shot by sniper, he has serious wounds, it is unknown if he'll live.
He was strongly against maidan, and Kharkiv's maidan activists had all reasons to hate him, yet in last events he supported united Ukraine without any federalisation. Basically during last two months he played against Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 29, 2014, 11:38:08 am
yep soon in woods will be found Russian KGB Major with sniper rifle and photo Kernes, btw he is cool know how to talk with stupid journalists
on russian ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 29, 2014, 12:14:37 pm
Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2014, 10:15:59 am
Aaaand we just hit another loophole.

Asking for proof doesn't automatically mean that I don't believe you. Quite on the contrary, actually.

 Find the part where I said that you are incorrect. Good luck.
How did you miss his obvious sarcasm for three posts?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 29, 2014, 02:00:18 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 09:42:28 am
Didn't you know? Locals are trained in explosive preparation and diversionary tactics. Mightily well trained.


Did you know that IED is also a way to designate home-made bombs or are you just trying to be funny grasping at straws?  :P
Those who fight in Ukraine probably have a higher proportion of guts/skills, thats for sure.


And diversionary tactics? Wat?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 29, 2014, 02:26:32 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 29, 2014, 02:00:18 pm

Did you know that IED is also a way to designate home-made bombs or are you just trying to be funny grasping at straws?  :P
Are you implying that home-made bombs are easy to make? If not, then why are you quoting Kuujis? If yes, then please, go ahead and try. It's a win-win situation for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 29, 2014, 03:06:22 pm
I don't even know where to start, Xant, when your reading comprehension is at that level.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 29, 2014, 03:10:34 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 29, 2014, 03:06:22 pm
I don't even know where to start, Xant, when your reading comprehension is at that level.

Are you not arguing that because a bomb is "home-made", it was made by civilians ? Then what's your point ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 29, 2014, 03:12:22 pm
Please post link how to make IED's.


Allahu Ekberrrrr
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 29, 2014, 03:21:38 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 29, 2014, 03:12:22 pm
Please post link how to make IED's.
Allahu Ekberrrrr
nah bombs for noobs use rockets!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 29, 2014, 04:24:44 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2014, 04:34:06 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 29, 2014, 02:00:18 pm

Did you know that IED is also a way to designate home-made bombs or are you just trying to be funny grasping at straws?  :P
Those who fight in Ukraine probably have a higher proportion of guts/skills, thats for sure.

And diversionary tactics? Wat?
Did you know that IED is also a way to designate home-made bombs Yes, do you? Plz read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device, learn more.
are you just trying to be funny grasping at straws? No, are you?
Choosing between the above is what one would call http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma :)
Those who fight in Ukraine probably have a higher proportion of guts/skills, thats for sure. Implying that I have low skills and/or low courage and thus would not be able to build an IED? That is an ad-hominem/red herring again and I do not see what it proves/disprooves or supports/denies. Whats your point?

And diversionary tactics? Wat? What would you call russian commandos identically armed and well prepared locals a.k.a. unidentified green men doing all this nonsensical BS in eastern russia? Civic protest? After they start using IED's - the definition of terrorists stick quite well too... shall we use it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 29, 2014, 04:37:24 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 29, 2014, 03:10:34 pm
Are you not arguing that because a bomb is "home-made", it was made by civilians ? Then what's your point ?
I don't think he knows what his point is himself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 29, 2014, 05:06:07 pm
Quote from: serr on April 29, 2014, 04:24:44 pm
That mayor seems like a grade-A pig.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 29, 2014, 05:43:05 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on April 29, 2014, 05:06:07 pm
That mayor seems like a grade-A pig.

No shit sherlock.

I mean come on, he's wearing a baseball cap, what did you expect ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 29, 2014, 07:16:57 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 29, 2014, 12:14:37 pm
How did you miss his obvious sarcasm for three posts?

Short attention span when I was reading it.

Also my sarcasm detectors tend to get broken at times.  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 30, 2014, 09:48:15 pm
Everybody step back I know thread CPR !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 30, 2014, 09:48:44 pm
Israel.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 30, 2014, 09:50:12 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 30, 2014, 11:20:55 pm
New ukrainian "culture"...


so smart
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on April 30, 2014, 11:47:27 pm
What the hell did I just watch.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 01, 2014, 12:03:55 am
Quote from: Butan on April 30, 2014, 11:47:27 pm
What the hell did I just watch.

Ben quoi, c'était pas clair ??  :D C'est une exposition caricaturant les Russes.

2 new dangers rise in Ukraine : Djihadists (from Chechenya, Syria, Tatars, Ouzbeks) are present in east Ukraine.
Ukrainian army refuse to shoot on civilians and may prepare a coup to take control of the country. Some units could join the opposition next days.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 01, 2014, 12:23:11 am
Organiser des expositions pour "informer" les gens sur ce qu'il s'est passé avec ce genre d'images et d'acteurs, si près de l'évènement et si loin au niveau de l'objectivité... faut le faire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on May 01, 2014, 02:40:18 am
tfw no cute russian general gf  :cry:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tore on May 01, 2014, 01:38:00 pm
Quote from: Chosen1 on May 01, 2014, 02:40:18 am
tfw no cute russian general gf  :cry:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 01, 2014, 08:20:50 pm
Not safe to see:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on May 01, 2014, 08:39:59 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 01, 2014, 08:20:50 pm
Not safe to see:
(click to show/hide)

she has cut down on eaten' пельмени - gained like 10 kg since that previous photo  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on May 01, 2014, 08:48:34 pm
Adobe Photoshop™, recommended by 14 out of every 10 Russian beauty experts
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 01, 2014, 09:00:08 pm
She changed her eyes color too  :P

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 01, 2014, 09:07:09 pm
Still prettier than any of you my old friendgets posting in this thread :P

Now, if Bjord was still around that could change...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 01, 2014, 09:19:11 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 01, 2014, 09:07:09 pm
Still prettier than any of you my old friendgets posting in this thread :P
Nonsense!

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 01, 2014, 09:35:52 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

in may in every city of ukraine  :lol: :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Johnnyfirs on May 01, 2014, 10:32:01 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 01, 2014, 09:35:52 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

in may in every city of ukraine  :lol: :twisted:
Story, source?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 01, 2014, 10:52:21 pm
(click to show/hide)

In June in every city of Russia  :lol: :twisted: (Welp nvm alrdy looks like it)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 01, 2014, 11:51:39 pm
Quote from: Johnnyfirs on May 01, 2014, 10:32:01 pm
Story, source?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Ukraine-brings-back-conscription-Presidential-decree/articleshow/34496976.cms


I do not think that the guys from 18-25 gladly go into the army tomorrow, I think Ukraine are waiting for new meetings and riots involving young people
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 02, 2014, 12:36:32 am
They picked the most peaceful democratic-loving guys for interim or is it me?

The presidential election is in 3 weeks... jesus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 02, 2014, 01:11:43 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 01, 2014, 10:52:21 pm
(click to show/hide)

In June in every city of Russia  :lol: :twisted: (Welp nvm alrdy looks like it)

That's Ukraine... in case you haven't played Stalker series, you should be able to recognize it from Modern Warfare campaign.

Quote from: Vovka on May 01, 2014, 11:51:39 pm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Ukraine-brings-back-conscription-Presidential-decree/articleshow/34496976.cms


I do not think that the guys from 18-25 gladly go into the army tomorrow, I think Ukraine are waiting for new meetings and riots involving young people

Hmm.. that's not how they do it in EU. Except in few countries.

Xant, have you been in the army yet?

Edit: This comment is very interesting

Quote
Just imagine, an 18-year-old in the east receives conscription orders - i.e. to join the Kiev army to fight against his pro-Russian father and/or brother and/or friends. He refuses, so gets branded a deserter, with a warrant out for his arrest, for not obeying conscription orders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 02, 2014, 01:39:26 am
Quote
Just imagine, an 18-year-old in the east receives conscription orders - i.e. to join the Kiev army to fight against his pro-Russian father and/or brother and/or friends. He refuses, so gets branded a deserter, with a warrant out for his arrest, for not obeying conscription orders.


No need to imagine much, Turchynov himself admits that the East is not under control at all. So if you live there, you can basically do anything you want with the conscription order, like wiping your ass with it.

Things get more "blurry" for those who live in still under control regions: those guys will have a lot more trouble evading the police.


But basically all Ukrainian will have problems fighting their own people. At least the police is prepared to fight civilians, not as much the army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 02, 2014, 01:40:55 am
Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 12:36:32 am
They picked the most peaceful democratic-loving guys for interim or is it me?

The presidential election is in 3 weeks... jesus.

Do you think the moderate sensible politicians even had a choice? The chocolate chip cookies had just kicked police butt and basically won maidan for them in the streets. It's actually surprising not more of the right sector are in the interim government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 02, 2014, 01:44:26 am
Quote from: Thomek on May 02, 2014, 01:40:55 am
Do you think the moderate sensible politicians even had a choice? The chocolate chip cookies had just kicked police butt and basically won maidan for them in the streets. It's actually surprising not more of the right sector are in the interim government.

Its good to hear some sense 3 months after people were mocked and insulted in this thread whenever we said that extremists were in maidan AT ALL. Not even going to talk about how the new government was formed.

I believe that most all the decisions and speechs done since Eastern Ukraine protests began could have been done by the right sector leader himself, so does it really matter?
They speak of war but they are yet the only one sending soldiers in and mass recruiting against an invisible enemy: Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 02, 2014, 02:04:59 am
Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 01:39:26 am

No need to imagine much, Turchynov himself admits that the East is not under control at all

I don't understand his motives. Is he under current government control or planning a coup?

You know, when civil war started in Yugoslavia first thing all three sides did was to send fresh meat as cannon fodder.

Edit: Wrong guy... was asking about current military commander/general.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 02, 2014, 02:20:48 am
Quote from: Leshma on May 02, 2014, 02:04:59 am
I don't understand his motives. Is he under current government control or planning a coup?

You know, when civil war started in Yugoslavia first thing all three sides did was to send fresh meat as cannon fodder.

Edit: Wrong guy... was asking about current military commander/general.

I meant that guy  :P

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Kiev-Forces-helpless-to-restore-order-in-east-Ukraine/articleshow/34439866.cms


Or how after the "show muscle" phase Ukraine government is impeccably switching to "NATO pls help".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 02, 2014, 03:04:30 am
Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 01:44:26 am
recruiting against an invisible enemy: Russia.

In deed invisible.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium#Biology_and_toxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium#Biology_and_toxicity)

Polonium poisoning presidents they don't like and annexing parts of the country.

Come on man. Wake the fuck up. I can understand the Russians in here, I guess I would feel a bit of guilty pride myself if I was Russian, but you are just blind..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 02, 2014, 03:25:35 am
Better poisoning presidents than a whole countries and its citizens:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 02, 2014, 06:57:21 am
Quote from: Leshma on May 02, 2014, 01:11:43 am
That's Ukraine... in case you haven't played Stalker series, you should be able to recognize it from Modern Warfare campaign.


Why do u derp more than necessary? Duh but it means that every non-Russian/Iran/NKorea nation will send back Soviet Union 2.0 to the grave.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 02, 2014, 08:45:35 am
At first they legislate retarded law about Russian language, then failed ATO, now conscription(like they are really preparing to fight with Russia) . What's next? Doubling taxes? Janukovich looks better & better every new day compared to new dudes. I'll hope that Poroshenko will bring some sense to the government.

Btw, I should have been conscripted to Glorious Russian Red Army about 2 years ago. Too bad they can't find me  8-)

great music:

Although, that would happen if Russia will escalate to direct conflict with NATO:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 02, 2014, 09:40:27 am
Btw, UA military tried to assault Slovyansk today. Lost 3 helicopters *facepalm*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 02, 2014, 09:47:10 am

Fighting resumes in Sloviansk, Ukrainian pilot killed (LIVE UPDATES) (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/fighting-resumes-in-slovyansk-ukrainian-pilot-killed-live-updates-345925.html)

Ukraine pilot killed in Sloviansk military operation (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27250026#TWEET1117923)

Actually the report says that they bocked  Slaviansk entirely.

Now this seems like playing into Putin's plans, triggering an invasion, but..

I'd really like to see this neo-fascist Putin worshipping russia fall because of their arrogance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 02, 2014, 09:53:36 am
Recent reports say 4 helicopters down.

Guess the casualty list is gonna get higher during the day too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 02, 2014, 10:21:07 am
One of my favorite movies:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 02, 2014, 10:54:48 am
Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 01:44:26 am
Its good to hear some sense 3 months after people were mocked and insulted in this thread whenever we said that extremists were in maidan AT ALL. Not even going to talk about how the new government was formed.

I believe that most all the decisions and speechs done since Eastern Ukraine protests began could have been done by the right sector leader himself, so does it really matter?
They speak of war but they are yet the only one sending soldiers in and mass recruiting against an invisible enemy: Russia.

Who was the one who ever said here that there were no extremists on maidan? I don't remember, but I remember a bunch of people saying that the WHOLE maidan thingy was made by nаzi and government is nаzi maidan-made. Also it's difficult not to insult a person like you because you refused to acknowledge the presence of external Russian military forces in Crimea even after even they confessed it. Same shit here again "invisible enemy Russia" and people who are "peaceful protesters" launching rockets to destroy helicopters. Yes, because Maidan ultra-nаzis used nuclear weapons against police  :rolleyes: I don't and I never considered hostile actions of protesters during Maidan as acceptable. But these separatists are just out of box. Robbing banks, stealing cars, blocking roads and etc. How are they different to terrorists? Once you take a gun - get ready to get shot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on May 02, 2014, 11:18:55 am
Quote from: Prpavi on May 02, 2014, 09:53:36 am
Recent reports say 4 helicopters down.

Guess the casualty list is gonna get higher during the day too.
Must be Russian soldiers. No untrained civ can down a heli with an AK47.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 02, 2014, 01:39:00 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 02, 2014, 10:54:48 am
Who was the one who ever said here that there were no extremists on maidan? I don't remember, but I remember a bunch of people saying that the WHOLE maidan thingy was made by nаzi and government is nаzi maidan-made. Also it's difficult not to insult a person like you because you refused to acknowledge the presence of external Russian military forces in Crimea even after even they confessed it. Same shit here again "invisible enemy Russia" and people who are "peaceful protesters" launching rockets to destroy helicopters. Yes, because Maidan ultra-nаzis used nuclear weapons against police  :rolleyes: I don't and I never considered hostile actions of protesters during Maidan as acceptable. But these separatists are just out of box. Robbing banks, stealing cars, blocking roads and etc. How are they different to terrorists? Once you take a gun - get ready to get shot.

And here I thought I was the worst analogist of this thread  :P

You wont find any messages of me saying 100% of Maidan is extremist. How can someone say that since at one point the protest was a perma 100k+ event? I dont think there is even 100k people in Ukraine who would be ready to take up arms to oust Yanukovitch even at that time.
It is already more debatable to say that nationalist and fascist did the heavy lifting and probably pushed their pawns in the newly made government, which is something I believe, and believe even more seeing all the decisions they have made since then : one-sided diplomacy, full force stupid use of the police/spec ops/army and populist speechs that even you Dave must not be very proud of.


All the rest of your argument "they have uniforms/guns/rpg so they are russians" is a proof you dont know whats an insurgency that goes bad.


Quote
Once you take a gun - get ready to get shot.

Totally agree.
And I would add, when you send tanks, prepare to get RPG-ed.

If Maidan had been repressed by the army, you can bet your shirt that, first, you would be crying your eyes for justice to decapitate whole government, and second, that the people would begin arming themselves more seriously too.
When a rebellion doesnt die, it tries to arm himself proportionally to the threat to its own existence/continuity (also proportionally to those who are ready to supply them under the table, see next reveleation...  :P )



Been a long time I've really stated my own opinion, so here I'm gonna drop a bomb on you : I also believe Russia is actively supporting the rebels in the east of Ukraine.

But. And thats a big but, I dont think that every masked gunmen is a russian operative nor do I believe the eastern protests started thanks to Russia. Thats the 2 big lies running around that makes me wanna go blind sometimes to not see that kind of posting, especially when it is said by people who said the exact opposite lie (maidan only made of good natured ukrainians :P) in the recent past.

They must have a few hundred agent provocateur running around (may have had lower/higher peak, closeness to the russian border help), setting up arm dealings with the local gung-ho and doing some priority targeting, but thats it.
Doing anything more and that would really start to show everywhere on the net. And no, the few vids showing organized groups of 20-30 people taking down a police station or two is nor proof enough that they are russian; nor that if they were, would mean they have invaded with whole army divisions.
When Putin will want to do that, he will just use his "ethnic russian protection" card; and frankly, looking at what the Ukrainian army is trying to do (utterly crushing the resistance) that would be a totally legit pretext. The only thing stopping Putin atm is the complete incompetence of the Ukrainian army: since they fail without any Russian army intervention, why reveal your cards? But if they start to have any form of success and permanently re-take control of any nerve point of the Eastern Ukraine, Russia will probably react.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 02, 2014, 02:51:08 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 01:39:00 pm

Been a long time I've really stated my own opinion, so here I'm gonna drop a bomb on you : I also believe Russia is actively supporting the rebels in the east of Ukraine.

I meant Tovi not you, but anyway. If you've just said that how come that Russia isn't an enemy of Ukraine? Nobody says that there are only Russians there among separatists, I clearly understand that the majority are locals but they're getting recruited/trained/armed by you know who. Also there are a lot of Russian citizens there who are God knows who: FSB, military forces, cossacks or anyone else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 02, 2014, 03:11:48 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 02, 2014, 02:51:08 pm
I meant Tovi not you, but anyway. If you've just said that how come that Russia isn't an enemy of Ukraine? Nobody says that there are only Russians there among separatists, I clearly understand that the majority are locals but they're getting recruited/trained/armed by you know who. Also there are a lot of Russian citizens there who are God knows who: FSB, military forces, cossacks or anyone else.

If Russia is enemy of Ukraine because they do behind the curtains operation inside Ukraine, then every countries in the world are at war with each other which have secret agency doing funny shit  :P
Everyone spy on everyone and there is thousands of people paid to notice events such as whats happening in Ukraine, and think of how to use it to further their own interest. Its more a matter of "how far" and "do we have the budget" than a moral stand. Pretty sure there is operative of dozens of foreign nations in Ukraine right now, trying to determine their number and mission is mostly a guess game. All of what we do except commenting official statement is a guess game anyway  :o

But its not hard to presume that the Russian interest are pretty big there, so they must be the biggest provider of the pro-RUS ukrainians; like US/EU having provided Maidan with various things. Also since the border between Russia and those eastern provinces are hardly patrolled right now, it must be piss easy to pass on armement and people unnoticed. So you are right to believe they are your #1 arch nemesis, but it wont be war until real armies clashes.

I still think that 99% of the people in the streets are Ukrainians, and thus 99 out of 100 bullets fired at them will hit an Ukrainian. Whether he has been armed by Russia or Saddam Hussein doesnt matter much in the end, they arent mind controlled and the reason they started the riots/insurgency are the same than EuroMaidan but reversed...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on May 02, 2014, 03:40:38 pm
EDIT: Sorry for comparing tragic events with a computer game. Still the analogy is ... well ... not far fetched.

You play Europa Universalis 4?

 You will understand this: Ukraine granted fleetbasing rights to Russia. Later Russia went to war with Georgia. Ukraine told Russia to stop war with Georgia, else fleetbasing rights wont be prolonged. Russia played some spy-options and turned the political opinion in Ukraine (forced event: new president) so fleetbasing rights were prolonged again. The price for this spy-option was some money (cheaper gas). Later there was civil-unrest in Ukraine again (becouse of Russian spy-action). Russians Diplo-Annexing of Crimea finaly suceeded. Result is trade embargo from EU / USA. Next steps: Ignore embargo. Annex East Ukraine. Wait until aggresive expansion penaltys wear off. Continue with other plans.



German Wiki inspired (it says this - sorry - only goole translate here)
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 02, 2014, 03:43:39 pm
Got some videos.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Nice "protesting".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 02, 2014, 03:53:26 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 02, 2014, 03:43:39 pm
Got some videos.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Nice "protesting".
do u think they must wave transparats while helicopter launch roskets in them? ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 02, 2014, 04:00:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 03:11:48 pm
But its not hard to presume that the Russian interest are pretty big there, so they must be the biggest provider of the pro-RUS ukrainians; like US/EU having provided Maidan with various things.

It has been two months and I still have no idea what you are talking about when you say US/EU provided Maidan with "various things". Until you actually clarify (and let's not kid ourselves, you will avoid doing so), I will assume you meant sandwiches.

Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 03:11:48 pm
Whether he has been armed by Russia or Saddam Hussein doesnt matter much in the end, they arent mind controlled and the reason they started the riots/insurgency are the same than EuroMaidan but reversed...

In what way are they the same ?

Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 03:11:48 pm
If Russia is enemy of Ukraine because they do behind the curtains operation inside Ukraine, then every countries in the world are at war with each other which have secret agency doing funny shit  :P

Can you write something else than false equalities ?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 02, 2014, 04:03:57 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 02, 2014, 03:53:26 pm
do u think they must wave transparats while helicopter launch roskets in them? ))

Still not funny.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on May 02, 2014, 04:30:37 pm
There certainly were some young people laughing when the Austrian heir apparent was shot a hundred years ago. Wasn't that funny anymore when they sat in the trenches afterwards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 02, 2014, 04:31:33 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 02, 2014, 03:53:26 pm
do u think they must wave transparats while helicopter launch roskets in them? ))

I thought you stopped with your 1 line messages with fail jokes ending with smilies. You were so much better without them))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 02, 2014, 06:13:06 pm
Quote from: Eugen on May 02, 2014, 03:40:38 pm
You play Europa Universalis 4?

 You will understand this: Ukraine granted fleetbasing rights to Russia. Later Russia went to war with Georgia. Ukraine told Russia to stop war with Georgia, else fleetbasing rights wont be prolonged. Russia played some spy-options and turned the political opinion in Ukraine (forced event: new president) so fleetbasing rights were prolonged again. The price for this spy-option was some money (cheaper gas). Later there was civil-unrest in Ukraine again (becouse of Russian spy-action). Russians Diplo-Annexing of Crimea finaly suceeded. Resulit is trade embargo from EU / USA. Next steps: Ignore embargo. Annex East Ukraine. Wait until aggresive expansion penaltys wear off. Continue with other plans.
Wrong. Russia annexed Crimea & got shitload of aggressive expansion. Ukraine(or Murrica) is creating coalition against Russia now. But, unlike in Europe 4, trade embargo will be the hardest strike. Even now, when there are no real sanctions yet, Russia already is losing tons of money. Add some stronger sanctions(gas & oil) & wait while rebel peasants will change tzar Putin the Conqueror.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 02, 2014, 06:15:59 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 02, 2014, 06:13:06 pm
Add some stronger sanctions(gas & oil) & wait while rebel peasants will change tzar Putin the Conqueror.

I laughed. :D

Anyway with that so called 80% approval rating, he could just play it off blaming everything on USA, and not on his behavior.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 02, 2014, 06:21:26 pm
Fresh joke from Fifth column(new meme-name for Russian opposition, although we create funny names for putin lovers too :) ):
"How is it possible that President has 82% rating of approval in a country, where 23% of families don't have water & canalization inside of their homes?"

Quote from: Christo on May 02, 2014, 06:15:59 pm
Anyway with that so called 80% approval rating, he could just play it off blaming everything on USA, and not on his behavior.
True, but only until some level. Russian don't have some crazy great national idea(Bad Korea), or tarded religion fanaticism(Iran), so we won't be able to live in poverty without questioning our leadership for long. You don't want to know what would happen when Vodka ends. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 02, 2014, 06:32:49 pm
... You can run out of Vodka?

 :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 02, 2014, 06:37:13 pm
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/47026001
looks like army disarming again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 02, 2014, 06:49:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 02, 2014, 04:00:30 pm
It has been two months and I still have no idea what you are talking about when you say US/EU provided Maidan with "various things". Until you actually clarify (and let's not kid ourselves, you will avoid doing so), I will assume you meant sandwiches.

Yes if you can shoot policers and protesters with sandwiches  :P


Quote from: Kafein on May 02, 2014, 04:00:30 pm
In what way are they the same ?

Maidan was about bad government too close to RUS, Eastern is about bad government too close to EU.
I'm feeling like Cpt Obvious here.


Quote from: Kafein on May 02, 2014, 04:00:30 pm
Can you write something else than false equalities ?

No but I can wait a few more months before what I said here is more tolerated/accepted... it seems that even Dave/Thomek is starting to get a little bit in agreement with me on Maidan for example :P (I dont mean no disrecpect in saying that!)
Time heal all wounds!
Seeing the minus on my posts, which I thought would score me some points even with pro-Maidan, its not yet time  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 02, 2014, 09:50:22 pm
http://www.voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/voina-na-yugo-vostoke-onlain-02-05-2014--578.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 03, 2014, 01:15:41 am
Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 06:49:07 pm
Yes if you can shoot policers and protesters with sandwiches  :P

Wait, the snipers ? Do you know who did it ? Share with us ! Otherwise, sandwiches.

Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 06:49:07 pm
Maidan was about bad government too close to RUS,

There's a difference between close to RUS and scuttling the country.

Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 06:49:07 pm
Eastern is about bad government too close to EU.

You are making it sound like the unrest in the eastern regions comes from the local population. The real reason is that Ukraine's interim gov is vulnerable, and the opportunity is too good for a certain foreign power with "claims" on the region.

Quote from: Butan on May 02, 2014, 06:49:07 pm
No but I can wait a few more months before what I said here is more tolerated/accepted... it seems that even Dave/Thomek is starting to get a little bit in agreement with me on Maidan for example :P (I dont mean no disrecpect in saying that!)
Time heal all wounds!
Seeing the minus on my posts, which I thought would score me some points even with pro-Maidan, its not yet time  :wink:

Who do you believe is on the right side of history ? Nobody said Right Sector had no role on the barricades. They had a key role during the protests due to their violent nature and organization. This is also the reason they joined Maidan, a group like that joins any protest. Now that the protests are over, the interim government tries to get rid of them, because they are dangerous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 04:19:19 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 03, 2014, 01:15:41 am
Quote
Maidan was about bad government too close to RUS, Eastern is about bad government too close to EU.
There's a difference between close to RUS and scuttling the country.

The population doesnt necessary wait for misdeeds and/or proofs of misdeeds before beginning unrests.
Counter-Maidan started because of Maidan success itself, which implemented closer ties to EU.


Quote from: Kafein on May 03, 2014, 01:15:41 am
You are making it sound like the unrest in the eastern regions comes from the local population. The real reason is that Ukraine's interim gov is vulnerable, and the opportunity is too good for a certain foreign power with "claims" on the region.

Ukrainian unstability and Russian interference are helping the unrest, which relied on the local population since the first days of post-Maidan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 04:51:34 am
About weapons in Maidan, or how all things comes to those who wait!:


Quote from: Kafein on April 23, 2014, 04:38:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on April 23, 2014, 04:23:06 pm
Quote from: Kafein on April 23, 2014, 04:21:54 pm
And those Maydan hippies didn't even find one ! Ha !
Small arms were rampant in maidan, google some vids and you can see for yourself. Not all deaths were caused by police.
I suggest you google some vids first and show them here before trying to make shit up.

Warning: shocking content ahead!
(part1)
(click to show/hide)

(part 2)
(click to show/hide)


inb4:
(click to show/hide)




Bonus laughing:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 03, 2014, 05:09:47 am
Yeah yeah sure, keep arguing about fucking Maidan, while these guys are armed with surface-to-air missiles.

Headdesk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 05:11:10 am
Quote from: Christo on May 03, 2014, 05:09:47 am
Yeah yeah sure, keep arguing about fucking Maidan, while these guys are armed with surface-to-air missiles.

Headdesk.

I will always be surprised by rhetoric.


Ignore my message as it only pertains to an old feud... But I believe the matter is settled now. We can move on to great and bigger things!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 03, 2014, 05:18:26 am
Quote from: Butan on May 03, 2014, 05:11:10 am
Ignore my message as it only pertains to an old feud...

It's not because maidan is an "old feud"

It's because you are a broken record player and it starts to get annoying, do you get mental stimulation from Maidan or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on May 03, 2014, 05:21:44 am
So did DaveUKR burn to death today in Odessa?   

Full invasion by the Soviets within 72 hours I'd wager.  Ukrainian government looks nonexistent or at least extremely shamefully incompetent.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 03, 2014, 05:22:51 am
Quote from: Butan on May 03, 2014, 05:11:10 am
I will always be surprised by rhetoric.


Ignore my message as it only pertains to an old feud... But I believe the matter is settled now. We can move on to great and bigger things!

If I'm correct, I don't believe Maidan Armed themselves until near the first casualties caused by the cops. After that, I'm fairly certain that maidan armed up to match progressive cop firepower.

So, you're correct on one thing here: Maidan fights Cops=ragtag armaments needed, Pro-Russia (Seizes Government and kills I believe) current governor(or whatever the term is)) fights Ukranian army=Professional Weaponry needed.

Not even IN Europe and I can tell you there is a BIG difference in Escalation between the two.

Maidan's was a gradual increase in aggressiveness leading to ragtag "militia". Pro-Russia goes straight to Heavily Armed and Trained Soldiers.

Also, none of the Maidan pictures have shown any high powered assault rifles, yet almost all Pro-Russians are carrying Assault Rifles.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 03, 2014, 05:25:36 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 03, 2014, 05:22:51 am
(click to show/hide)


Thanks for the detailed elaboration, I'm too busy making my breakfast.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 03, 2014, 05:31:06 am
Quote from: Christo on May 03, 2014, 05:25:36 am
Thanks for the detailed elaboration, I'm too busy making my breakfast.

I've seen mostly Shotguns, Hunting Rifles(Bolt actions by the looks) and 9MM Handguns(1 Revolver, probably 9MM maybe .44, but I'm not familiar with larger caliber handguns).
I haven't seen anything BEYOND Assault Rifles in Pro-Russian Armies. That's HARD to do, even in AMERICA....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 03, 2014, 05:36:33 am
Yep, the two conflicts are not even close.

These eastern bastards systematically raided and looted weapons first. That is a huge difference.

And I'm also totally convinced that those 9mm pistols and hunting rifles were funded by NATO.

Totally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 03, 2014, 09:36:59 am
Was about to write the same as Anders.
The pictures show pretty obvious weaponry which seems to me to be "personal hunting equipment" brought by those people.

That is - obviously or to put it with Christo's words totally - comparable with pretty organized raids on weapon stashes through out the Eastern Ukraine... with already assault rifles in their hands too. Those police station raids weren't done with handguns and hunting rifles but in full camo gear and AKs.

But since I am brainwashed by main stream media, what do I know :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 03, 2014, 10:04:35 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on May 03, 2014, 05:21:44 am
So did DaveUKR burn to death today in Odessa?   

Full invasion by the Soviets within 72 hours I'd wager.  Ukrainian government looks nonexistent or at least extremely shamefully incompetent.

I didn't and I couldn't as I don't take part in such actions. And if I did I would be on the other side of guys who unfortunately died. People in my city were making a march of unity (women and children are included as people simply joined it in the centre of the city while walking around) and pro-Russian separatists tried to attack it and make this march vanish. Meanwhile they were destroying empty cars with Ukrainian flags. Too bad for them that football fans supported that march and they were eager for vengeance. It ended up in thousands of angry men seeking for separatists in the city and destroying all their possible positions. Odessa is quite a big city with over a million of population and they walked over 20km to destroy camps of separatists, that's quite an effort. I think people in my city simply got fed by these pro-Russian bastards who kept throwing Molotov cocktails in ATMs/banks, supermarkets, cars and blocking roads. Too bad that they died though, nobody deserved such death, that was a nightmare.

Quote from: Butan on May 03, 2014, 04:51:34 am
About weapons in Maidan, or how all things comes to those who wait!:

Small arms were rampant in maidan, google some vids and you can see for yourself. Not all deaths were caused by police.

I suggest you google some vids first and show them here before trying to make shit up.


Warning: shocking content ahead!
(part1)
(click to show/hide)

(part 2)
(click to show/hide)


inb4:
(click to show/hide)




Bonus laughing:
(click to show/hide)

Butan and then you complain that you get called a retard. Which of these guns can effectively shoot even at 100m range? And how many people on Maidan have these weapons compare to people who didn't have any? And now compare this to warfare of pro-Russians. Meh.

Butan. And I've just noticed. You know what is the funniest thing in your post?  :lol: Lol, the only military (not hunting or air-pump action) gun that is shown there is on the last picture: PM (Pistolet Makarova) that uses 9mm ammo. And guess what? Look at the stripes, it's used by a pro-Russian guy. Nice knowledge of the situation. Get in a group with Panos.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 03, 2014, 10:06:40 am


                                                                                                                 
   "Burn the faggots!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 03, 2014, 10:42:28 am
Well, looks like Odessa won't join Great Donetsk Republic. About 40 dead separatists.

I like this quote from second video:
"Those fasсists, we will destroy them all & kill them"
So non-fasсist...  :rolleyes:

But the funniest thing is that nаzi-bandera Prime minister is jew  :o


Also, from first vid comments:

Monkeys R Us12 hours ago
Pro-Ukraine terrorists/thugs were provoking pro-russian activists by bringing Ukrainian flags into cities that want to be part of Russia. They knew this would start a fight with the pro-Russian activists who want to peacefully become part of Russia.  Why don't you report the news how it really happens, VICE? Stop working as the propaganda wings of the CIA. 

Probably Tovi's account.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 03, 2014, 12:30:30 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 03, 2014, 10:06:40 am


                                                                                                                 
   "Burn the faggots!"


Such lovely people these Russian separatists
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on May 03, 2014, 01:31:48 pm
every time when someone says "there are huge difference between Maydan and this"  somewhere one kitten is being killed by Putin.
all this is one long period of destabilisation in UKraine. ALL THIS. there was no "peace time" between Maydan, Crimea and this.
there is NO difference because in both cases people doing whatever they want without care about people who disagree with them. IN BOTH CASES, not just here. both sides were supported and there are NO difference is it money or is it weapon. its SUPPORT as fact.
i'll keep saying, all this shit is only ukrainians business and sadly even ukrainians dont understand it. some of them was thinking that they will be fucking rich when they will become a part of eu, some of them are thinking that in russia will be much better than in ukraine. BOTH are wrong and BOTH made this country much worse than it was before. no matter how violent actions of any side are, only truth are matter. pure truth we can see in results... results of this shit you already see.

what kind of achivment will you gain from posting videos and pics from ukraine to this topic? you will gain litteraly nothing. you want to criticize something? dont you have something to criticize from your daily life? at least better to cry about 2hs and archers than cry about government from not your country, about actions of another countrys that dont have border with you.
after all this i've noticed only 2 changes in my town. national money became cheaper and many brainwashed people became a patriots without any reason to be ones... especially funny to listen the ones who was always saying that our country is shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 03, 2014, 01:41:31 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on May 03, 2014, 01:31:48 pm
every time when someone says "there are huge difference between Maydan and this"  somewhere one kitten is being killed by Putin.
Putin killed a lot of separatist kittens in Chechnya.  :rolleyes: Now he's bitching about Slovyansk assault.

Quote from: Dark_Blade on May 03, 2014, 01:31:48 pm
after all this i've noticed only 2 changes in my town. national money became cheaper and many brainwashed people became a patriots without any reason to be ones...
Both are the same for Russia.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 03, 2014, 01:51:09 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on May 03, 2014, 01:31:48 pm
every time when someone says "there are huge difference between Maydan and this"  somewhere one kitten is being killed by Putin.
all this is one long period of destabilisation in UKraine. ALL THIS. there was no "peace time" between Maydan, Crimea and this.
there is NO difference because in both cases people doing whatever they want without care about people who disagree with them. IN BOTH CASES, not just here. both sides were supported and there are NO difference is it money or is it weapon. its SUPPORT as fact.
i'll keep saying, all this shit is only ukrainians business and sadly even ukrainians dont understand it. some of them was thinking that they will be fucking rich when they will become a part of eu, some of them are thinking that in russia will be much better than in ukraine. BOTH are wrong and BOTH made this country much worse than it was before. no matter how violent actions of any side are, only truth are matter. pure truth we can see in results... results of this shit you already see.

what kind of achivment will you gain from posting videos and pics from ukraine to this topic? you will gain litteraly nothing. you want to criticize something? dont you have something to criticize from your daily life? at least better to cry about 2hs and archers than cry about government from not your country, about actions of another countrys that dont have border with you.
after all this i've noticed only 2 changes in my town. national money became cheaper and many brainwashed people became a patriots without any reason to be ones... especially funny to listen the ones who was always saying that our country is shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confabulation

Autists can't differentiate 2 things. Rainman in crpg community?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 01:52:01 pm
The EU's GDP alone is around 16 trillion dollars. Russia's is around 2 billion, comparable to Italy's individual GDP. And you are seriously making the claim that western "interference" (even ignoring the US, which almost doubles that) is in any way equivalent to what the russians are doing? There are TONS of differences in the money and ESPECIALLY the fucking weapons. The evil polish-trained Maidan had no military weapons. The closest thing is the whole "mercenaries hired by NATO" conspirary retardedness, which has been paroted endlessly by russian state owned media (I WONDER WHY GEE), despite zero fucking proof. Even complete idiots like Butan are forced to present pics of random low caliber small arms used for hunting and pistols as "proof" of evil western funding. Weigh that against the filmed, evidenced and obvious influx of russian military equipment, assault rifles and SAM's and APC's and fucking tanks.
If the "west" wanted to intervene the way Russia is doing, you'd fucking notice it. There is no equivalence despite how hard and furiously some complete braindead fucking retards try to "argue" it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 02:10:44 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 03, 2014, 05:18:26 am
It's because you are a broken record player and it starts to get annoying, do you get mental stimulation from Maidan or something?

Its never too late to speak the truth. For the whole time of the EuroMaidan protest, accusation of people being armed were always ignored and even months after, it was highly doubted. Here you got the image proof. I'm not forcing you to take the red pill :wink:

And you're confusing destroying a long-lived "protesters in maidan had no firearms" (a scoop for some); and repeating an old acknowledged bit of information.
Feels like the "russian invasion of crimea" argument destruction again  :rolleyes: << no shit! we already knew it!>>

Quote from: DaveUKR on May 03, 2014, 10:04:35 am
Which of these guns can effectively shoot even at 100m range? And how many people on Maidan have these weapons compare to people who didn't have any? And now compare this to warfare of pro-Russians. Meh.

Now the next fail argument is the difference in caliber/accuracy between hunting rifles and assault rifles... guys, for real.

I read Lt_Anders post and I totally agree with him, the difference is there. Even Dave can see that its hard comparing the warfare between rioters and police, and between insurgents and army.

The point is acknowledging (as Anders pointed, but I think you ignored that part) that Maidan proportionally armed themselves against riot police. No fucking surprise they didnt bring surface air missiles.
In Eastern, at the beginning of the counter-Maidan movement, there was only riot police too, and how armed was the population? Thats right, same as Maidan.
After they began sending SBU, self-defense forces, national guards (a bit over the "riot police" category of use of force), some days later you had your first police station takedown and more and more guys showing with bullet proof vests and assaults rifles. Thats right, same as Maidan, the government and the opposition are both responsible for the proportional escalation of violence.

I dont blame Maidan activists for taking arms, nor do I blame the new government for trying to cure the problem the manu militari way, I blame the people behind who painted lions in Maidan as sheeps, and the same guys are painting the sheeps in eastern as lions. And I also blame your poor judgement...



For Dave:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 03, 2014, 02:18:53 pm
The way I see it.. IDK if it holds any truth, but sometimes one can speculate.

The basic irony here, is that Russia has deliberately sabotaged Ukraine to keep government weak since dissolution of USSR. If they can prop up a corrupt, stupid, rapist pro russian president I would think they already have deep fingers in the intelligence services, the army, and probably even sleeper cells (now activated) to keep Ukraine under control.

So Ukraine suffers from bad government because of Russia, then people want to join Russia because the Russian propaganda makes them think its better there! Lol.

I can imagine the headache Ukrainian army and chain of command have nowadays.. They are probably facing immense intelligence leaks, deliberate sabotage by Russian aligned elements, as well as soldiers not believing in the cause.

@Butan.. about the firewpower.. I would guess 1 of those AKs have more firepower than all the pics of rifles you presented.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on May 03, 2014, 02:21:10 pm
Butan some of those weapons you linked are airguns I wanted to buy for like 30-100 fucking euros some months ago. It's illegal to use them to hunt smaller game like mice because it wont probably even kill them with the first shot.

like:
(click to show/hide)

http://www.jula.se/luftgevar-med-kikarsikte-4-5mm-777375
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 02:28:09 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 03, 2014, 02:18:53 pm
The way I see it.. IDK if it holds any truth, but sometimes one can speculate.

The basic irony here, is that Russia has deliberately sabotaged Ukraine to keep government weak since dissolution of USSR. If they can prop up a corrupt, stupid, rapist pro russian president I would think they already have deep fingers in the intelligence services, the army, and probably even sleeper cells (now activated) to keep Ukraine under control.

So Ukraine suffers from bad government because of Russia, then people want to join Russia because the Russian propaganda makes them think its better there! Lol.

I can imagine the headache Ukrainian army and chain of command have nowadays.. They are probably facing immense intelligence leaks, deliberate sabotage by Russian aligned elements, as well as soldiers not believing in the cause.

While it is true that Russia wanted to keep Ukraine on a leash, you're a bit overreacting. If you come to Serbia and ask random person what he thinks happened in last 25 years, he'll tell you that "western world" deliberately ruined the country because it was too strong and they couldn't handle it any other way (slavic supremacy yo!)

Reality is that, while government can be rotten, people are to blame too. Most of you forgot that Ukrainians aren't that much different than Russians and that giving them democracy, won't implant them work ethics of German people or put them in a position to become leading world country in years to come. If Ukrainians were superior to Russian people (and not pretty much the same kind of people) as some of the comments imply, then none of this would happen. Smart people would fix the issue a lot sooner. Only when you have huge uneducated majority this happens.

What really frightens me is that even random folks like you Thomek, know that very well, but are sticking to it just because you want to see NATO base in Ukraine. Just because you want Russia to burn. If this community thought me something, is that you guys always say one thing while thinking something completely different.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 02:28:38 pm
Behold, cutting edge tech weaponry from the judeo-chocolate chip cookie NWO.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 02:30:16 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on May 03, 2014, 02:21:10 pm
(click to show/hide)

thus the inb4 prophecy began
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 02:32:01 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 02:28:09 pm
While it is true that Russia wanted to keep Ukraine on a leash, you're a bit overreacting. If you come to Serbia and ask random person what he thinks happened in last 25 years, he'll tell you that "western world" deliberately ruined the country because it was too strong and they couldn't handle it any other way (slavic supremacy yo!)

Reality is that, while government can be rotten, people are to blame too. Most of you forgot that Ukrainians aren't that much different than Russians and that giving them democracy, won't implant them work ethics of German people or put them in a position to become leading world country in years to come. If Ukrainians were superior to Russian people (and not pretty much the same kind of people) as some of the comments imply, then none of this would happen. Smart people would fix the issue a lot sooner. Only when you have huge uneducated majority this happens.

The ukrainians weren't mounting up racial ethnic cleansing death squads against a separatist minority. There was already a full on civil war when NATO intervened in Serbia. Russian intervention in Ukraine is what created the civil war. There is no comparison. Funny how serbians tend to forget about that when they act like they were poor defenseless martyrs struck down by evil anti-slavic NATO. It's like japanese crying about nuclear bombs and pretending it happened in a vacuum, and ignore their actions in WW2, or even praise them.
I'm the last person to defend the results of the intervention though. Kosovo is just an extention of Albania, and the groups the serbs were fighting against were just as violent and "evil". There was no moral highground there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 02:37:27 pm
There was no civil war, who told you that? There were mass killings of albanian civilians and small squad guerrilla albanian forces. That is not civil war. They weren't even able to pull of what this pro-russian separatist are doing, to keep whole cities under control. Albanian freedom forces were pretty much like WW2 partisans, armed with weapons donated by world renowned muslim organisations such as Al-Qaeda. If NATO didn't intervene, they would never win anything. Same thing happened 20 years before that, under communist goverment which pretty much rofl stomped those freedom forces. But no one raised an eye because no one outside Yugoslavia knew what is happening.

Also, you're wrong about minority part. Reason why that happened is because albanians became majority. They produce much more babies than Serbians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 03, 2014, 02:45:32 pm
Let's not bring serbia into this. That was completely different. I'm not justifying the bombing, but it was pretty clear that the parties were not able to cooperate and basically tried to fuck each other for many years before it became a war interpreted as deliberate ethnic cleaning.

Leshma, I don't hope for NATO, I don't even hope for EU. My hope is that Ukraine will open more, have easier travel for people to go and see how society can work. I feel sorry they have to live in the backwards corrupt regime of soviet design. I want Ukraine to have a modern justice system, to begin the road that has brought i.ex Poland a lot good things.

Eventually, even Russians will see what the west is all about, and they will want it too. Perhaps then, Europe, together with Russia (because we are more or less the same) will be able to balance off a stronger future china.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 02:50:06 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 03, 2014, 10:06:40 am
(click to show/hide)

Mental stimulation for the insane (which is pro-RUS? which is pro-EU? dont read the titles/comments its cheating!):



how to make a side appear extremely violent with subtitles
integrated version
(click to show/hide)


no subtitle needed in that last one

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 02:51:51 pm
They were a minority in the country overall. They were a majority in the area of Kosovo, which has deep historical and cultural ties to the serbian national identity. That doesn't change the fact that like you said they were the obvious losing side in the war. Their most obvious patron was Albania, not exactly a powerhouse. And yeah, if NATO hadn't intervened, they wouldn't have won. They would have gotten ethnically cleansed.

It's the same crocodile tears excuse Russia is using now in Ukraine, that poor opressed russian minority was about to get eliminated by evil chocolate chip cookie ukrainians. The difference is that's exactly how it would have turned out in Serbia for the albanians, and was never even close to happening in Ukraine despite all the propaganda vomited from the Kremlin. Do you honestly think the russian separatists would have had this ammount of success if they weren't obviously supported by a military power that dwarfs what the Ukraine can put forward? Do you think the influx of russian military and materiel might maybe have something to do with keeping "entire cities" under their control? I didn't know eastern ukrainians just had all these tanks and assault rifles and SAM's just lying around, independently of the government. How quaint, when all their ukrainian counterparts in the west of the country were pop 22. AT MOST little hunting rifles, pistols and revolvers. And that is painted as a fucking chocolate chip cookie uprising by the gullible retards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 02:53:22 pm
Don't understand why you think traveling around the world will change people. Yugoslavia was a country which citizens could freely travel and many did. Even today, many people spend most of their money to travel around Europe. But they don't want to change a slightest bit. Internet is a lot cheaper way to educate yourself and begin to understand how modern world functions and realize all the options you have. I'm not optimistic like you are that one day we're all be on the same level. Some people don't like change and are stuck in the past.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 02:59:40 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 03, 2014, 02:45:32 pm
Let's not bring serbia into this. That was completely different.

You'd be surprised. That is the reason some serbs have gone to fight in Ukraine. It is perceived as some sort of payback for NATO actions in Serbia, which was a crime against "slavdom". Russia has been holding a grudge over what happened in Serbia for quite some time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:02:43 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 03, 2014, 02:50:06 pm
Mental stimulation for the insane (which is pro-RUS? which is pro-EU? dont read the titles/comments its cheating!):

There's a fucking russian flag literally right there. No need to even press play. Blind moron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 03:04:03 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:02:43 pm
There's a fucking russian flag literally right there. No need to even press play. Blind moron.

Congratulations you have successfully completed your homework of the day  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 03, 2014, 03:05:01 pm
Give Moldova to Western Ukraine (nobody cares about Moldova lol) and agree to split Ukraine into two halfs and then build a Berlin-esque wall to keep the filthy Russian communist USSR 2.0 and Putin out of Western Ukraine and ban all transport from east towards Western Ukraine and deport all ethnic Russians from Western Ukraine to prevent any ''Pro Russian supporters living in Ukraine want to join Russyyaaa''. And also no immigrants from Russia/Eastern Ukraine or travelling to Western Ukraine allowed.

Problem solved. Watch Western Ukraine prosper and Eastern Ukraine enjoy their merge with Russia and inferior economy and inferior standard of living.


GG (i should become a politician).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:06:31 pm
Russia would never give up influence over Moldova, fallen at the first hurdle. I do hope at least part of the Ukraine emerges from this as sovereign country. It's starting to really look like full annexation from the outside. Just a matter of time. It's not like Russia has anything stopping it. Maybe economic pressure will be enough to salvage at least some of the country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 03:08:10 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 02:51:51 pm
They were a minority in the country overall. They were a majority in the area of Kosovo, which has deep historical and cultural ties to the serbian national identity. That doesn't change the fact that like you said they were the obvious losing side in the war. Their most obvious patron was Albania, not exactly a powerhouse. And yeah, if NATO hadn't intervened, they wouldn't have won. They would have gotten ethnically cleansed.

Kosovo had autonomy, even then it wasn't that much connected to rest of Serbia. Serbia is pretty centralized country. Besides Vojvodina (another case of autonomy), Belgrade is pretty much the only place in Serbia worth living in, rest is just poor like Albania. Whole serbian national identity thing on Kosovo is bullshit and a myth. It is always an excuse but no one really believes in it.

I don't believe their patron was Albania. They are too poor to finance wars. Just like in civil war in Bosnia, support for muslim jihadist came from Iran and Saudi Arabia. They send the guns, money and support in form of their best mercenaries already proven around the world. That is why Vatican state never acknowledged Kosovo as independent state, because they see it as a part of muslim expansion in Europe which is what they truly believe in.

Also, don't think Milosevic's idea was ethic cleansing. He was a dictator who only cared about support. Obviously, he wanted to reduce numbers of albanian majority in Kosovo that way hurting future of guerrilla movements. But what I believe he really wanted to achieve with mass killining of civilians is to frighten albanians, showing them what could happen to them if they don't convert to his side and support him with votes. Bear in mind that at time he wasn't caring about anything nationalists wanted to hear and see, he just wanted to stay in the saddle for years to come. Nationalists in Serbia denounced him years ago before Kosovo thing happened, they even protested against him while supporting Chetnics.

Quote
You'd be surprised. That is the reason some serbs have gone to fight in Ukraine. It is perceived as some sort of payback for NATO actions in Serbia, which was a crime against "slavdom". Russia has been holding a grudge over what happened in Serbia for quite some time.

Some is right word, like no more than a dozen. While many Serbians are into that nationalist bullshit, most of them will never again participate in war because they felt it on their skin. Just barking, nothing more. And Russia isn't holding a grudge, they don't give a flying fuck about Serbia. They used the siltation as leverage. If they cared, they would defend Serbia from Nato in 1999.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:11:44 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 03:08:10 pm
Kosovo had autonomy, even then it wasn't that much connected to rest of Serbia. Serbia is pretty centralized country. Besides Vojvodina (another case of autonomy), Belgrade is pretty much the only place in Serbia worth living in, rest is just poor like Albania. Whole serbian national identity thing on Kosovo is bullshit and a myth. It is always an excuse but no one really believes in it.

I don't believe their patron was Albania. They are too poor to finance wars. Just like in civil war in Bosnia, support for muslim jihadist came from Iran and Saudi Arabia. They send the guns, money and support in form of their best mercenaries already proven around the world. That is why Vatican state never acknowledged Kosovo as independent state, because they see it as a part of muslim expansion in Europe which is what they truly believe in.

Also, don't think Milosevic's idea was ethic cleansing. He was a dictator who only cared about support. Obviously, he wanted to reduce numbers of albanian majority in Kosovo that way hurting future of guerrilla movements. But what I believe he really wanted to achieve with mass killining of civilians is to frighten albanians, showing them what could happen to them if they don't convert to his side and support him with votes. Bear in mind that at time he wasn't caring about anything nationalists wanted to hear and see, he just wanted to stay in the saddle for years to come. Nationalists in Serbia denounced him years ago before Kosovo thing happened, they even protested against him while supporting Chetnics.

How do you think ethnic cleansing works. It's not about literally destroying a group of people. That's just plain genocide. It's all about massacres and random acts of violence driving the majority of civilians who just want to live their lives in peace to refugee status, driving them away. Do you honestly think targetting a group with such actions was just a way of "getting their votes"? What? Was there a group of pro-serb albanians I never heard about, driven to support by fear?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:17:12 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 24, 2014, 07:01:57 pm
Kiev

You were wrong btw, my bet was Odessa, you own me a loom now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 03:19:49 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:11:44 pm
How do you think ethnic cleansing works. It's not about literally destroying a group of people. That's just plain genocide. It's all about massacres and random acts of violence driving the majority of civilians who just want to live their lives in peace to refugee status, driving them away. Do you honestly think targetting a group with such actions was just a way of "getting their votes"? What? Was there a group of pro-serb albanians I never heard about, driven to support by fear?

Yes, I believe that was the case. Just like drug lords in Mexico. They come in the village, brutally torture and murder almost everyone, leaving a few to tell the tale. Inducing fear in larger area, gaining support and loyalty.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on May 03, 2014, 03:23:02 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 03, 2014, 01:51:09 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confabulation

Autists can't differentiate 2 things. Rainman in crpg community?

there are 26 letters in english alphabet. how many words in the english language?

situations are different because of MANY reasons but they are basiclly the same at almost everything. if you are differentiate them - at some point you are right but you are far from the source. seems its totaly ungettable for you and for some people else on this forum.I wont say that you are retard or something like this. anyway you have to live with it even without understanding of it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:26:04 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 03:19:49 pm
Yes, I believe that was the case. Just like drug lords in Mexico. They come in the village, brutally torture and murder almost everyone, leaving a few to tell the tale. Inducing fear in larger area, gaining support and loyalty.

And a bunch of the population fleeing to areas that are not warzones. Which is why I'd classify a lot the immigration to the US from Mexico as refugees, even if they are not officially.
And that completely ignores the ethnic aspect, which is not present at all in your example. It's kind of the main aspect when taking about ethnic cleansing. If drug cartels were specifically targetting nahuatl speakers or something, you might have a point. But their violence is a lot more indiscriminate and pragmatic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 03, 2014, 03:51:39 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:17:12 pm
You were wrong btw, my bet was Odessa, you own me a loom now.
u are not good enough to have my looms ) and i talked about where will be russian army next and not "pro-russians"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:59:49 pm
Because the two are completely separate, of course. How long before russian army intervenes to defend poor oppressed pro-russians? Evil ukrainian chocolate chip cookies just killed a bunch of russian martyrs. I don't give it much time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 04:25:47 pm
They'll just send more and better equipped unmarked troops. Don't think they'll announce war against Ukraine, not after this much effort trying to hide it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 03, 2014, 04:39:52 pm
If I were Putin, I'd wait until the Ukrainian military eventually fucks up somehow and kills civilians/prisoners/whatever and use that as my casus belli. All Russia has to do is keep the "protests" going and when they're armed like that, mistakes will happen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 04:51:34 pm
You're saying it like NATO cares about that. Like they'll approve Russia doing anything because Ukraine army fucked up. Cards are on the table, sides are known, no ones cares what organizations like Human Rights Watch and OSCE have to say in the matter. Unless it's going in their favor.

There is no coming back to previous stage, Russia will never be western partner anymore. They will either "win" or become slaves. More likely the latter.

Putin isn't playing his little game to impress western world. He's doing it to show rest of the world or how we call it, third world that he isn't the bad guy. He wants support from countries like China, India, Iran, Brazil. Currently he just wants to see west in flames, and it is mutual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 05:19:16 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 04:51:34 pm
There is no coming back to previous stage, Russia will never be western partner anymore. They will either "win" or become slaves. More likely the latter.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this part must be tempered a bit  :P  even in the cold war era there was some minor partnership and non-military "neutral" competition. Ukraine events is an opportunity for the two blocks to "tabula rasa" and go on a new base, but it wont necessarily be a return to the cold war, or a war. Even if it is, it could be a short feud.

At the moment, both USA and Russia have stated that they are "not ready to intervene military". Of course, It could change in a matter of hours/days, relative to how Ukraine deals with their own predicament.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 05:24:08 pm
Tempered? It's just my opinion based on what I've seen/read. It would be for the best to stop this madness and go back to usual business but it seems impossible at this point. War in Ukraine has already started and it seems Putin will send Ramzan Kadyrov to "protect" pro-russian "activists". Which means that eastern Ukraine will soon become hell on earth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on May 03, 2014, 05:42:42 pm
when will the nuking start?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 03, 2014, 06:29:23 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 03, 2014, 03:04:03 pm
Congratulations you have successfully completed your homework of the day  :P

Butan became Vovka with unfunny "joking" 1line post with a smiley in the end?

Quote from: Oberyn on May 03, 2014, 03:17:12 pm
You were wrong btw, my bet was Odessa, you own me a loom now.

You were actually wrong as pro-Ukrainian forces just cleansed Odessa yesterday. Pro-Russians wanted to provoke but couldn't stand and didn't expect suchbackfire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 03, 2014, 06:34:45 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 03, 2014, 06:29:23 pm
Butan became Vovka with unfunny "joking" 1line post with a smiley in the end?


Someone gotta step up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 03, 2014, 07:43:38 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 03, 2014, 06:29:23 pm
Butan became Vovka with unfunny "joking" 1line post with a smiley in the end?

You were actually wrong as pro-Ukrainian forces just cleansed Odessa yesterday. Pro-Russians wanted to provoke but couldn't stand and didn't expect suchbackfire.
yep after they realized it they barricaded in buildings and burn themself
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on May 03, 2014, 10:56:29 pm
BREAKING NEWS

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 04, 2014, 12:05:58 am
Quote from: Chosen1 on May 03, 2014, 10:56:29 pm
BREAKING NEWS

(click to show/hide)

My dream come true  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 04, 2014, 12:12:22 am
Quote from: Butan on May 04, 2014, 12:05:58 am
My dream come true  :cry:

Y u no move to USSR 2.0 if u wanna be a Russki? U make Napoleon's ghost angry
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 04, 2014, 12:28:10 am
Napoleon was almost Italian  8-)

But it takes too long to learn russian language.
 Depardieu is already in Russia, cuz this place is an alcoholic paradise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 04, 2014, 12:31:40 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 04, 2014, 12:28:10 am
Napoleon was almost Italian  8-)
But it takes too long to learn russian language.
 Depardieu is already in Russia, cuz this place is an alcoholic paradise.
Yeah not easy but you guys have another week or two to learn the Russian language, depending on what part of Europe you Is located, except the French, it usually takes 1 day :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 04, 2014, 01:53:53 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 04, 2014, 01:56:23 am
Quote from: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 04:51:34 pm
You're saying it like NATO cares about that. Like they'll approve Russia doing anything because Ukraine army fucked up. Cards are on the table, sides are known, no ones cares what organizations like Human Rights Watch and OSCE have to say in the matter. Unless it's going in their favor.

There is no coming back to previous stage, Russia will never be western partner anymore. They will either "win" or become slaves. More likely the latter.

Putin isn't playing his little game to impress western world. He's doing it to show rest of the world or how we call it, third world that he isn't the bad guy. He wants support from countries like China, India, Iran, Brazil. Currently he just wants to see west in flames, and it is mutual.
Uh, presumably that is a reply to my post. Where did I mention NATO or its approval?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 04, 2014, 10:54:36 am

 :lol:

This guy can't be for real.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 04, 2014, 12:42:28 pm
I couldn't even watch the whole video, it made me cringe that hard. :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 04, 2014, 12:50:27 pm
Odessa report with tons of pics(if you know Russian):
http://napaki.livejournal.com/100072.html
From preparations till the end
Short story: UKR grouped up for the march while RUS were preparing to assault the march. Cops knew, but did nothing. Then assault began. More UKR arrived & RUS retreated behind cops. Cops made shieldwall to protect RUS(wtf?), while both sides continued to throw shit at each other. Then even more UKR arrived, RUS fully retreated,
chase started. Finally, some RUS hided inside wannabe-grill building. Both sides continued to throw shit & molotovs, some fires started, some UKR gone inside to kick asses. Fire spreaded, a lot of dead(both RUS & UKR). The end.

Pro-Russians are preparing to be fried in few hours:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Cops are protecting nаzies with shieldwall:

AK & UZI
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Dudes with molotovs:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


*RUS means Pro-Russian Ukrainians, not KGB agents.
*Guns probably not real(strikeball) or were would be a lot more dead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 04, 2014, 01:12:03 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 04, 2014, 12:50:27 pm
Odessa report with tons of pics(if you know Russian):
http://napaki.livejournal.com/100072.html
From preparations till the end
Short story: UKR grouped up for the march while RUS were preparing to assault the march. Cops knew, but did nothing. Then assault began. More UKR arrived & RUS retreated behind cops. Cops made shieldwall to protect RUS(wtf?), while both sides continued to throw shit at each other. Then even more UKR arrived, RUS fully retreated,
chase started. Finally, some RUS hided inside wannabe-grill building. Both sides continued to throw shit & molotovs, some fires started, some UKR gone inside to kick asses. Fire spreaded, a lot of dead(both RUS & UKR). The end.

Pro-Russians are preparing to be fried in few hours:
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I bet that knight/warrior is Vovka
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 04, 2014, 02:29:55 pm
CIA, FBI agents 'advising Ukraine government (http://news.yahoo.com/cia-fbi-agents-advising-ukraine-government-report-101508429.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Eugen on May 04, 2014, 02:34:25 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 03, 2014, 02:28:09 pm
While it is true that Russia wanted to keep Ukraine on a leash, you're a bit overreacting. If you come to Serbia and ask random person what he thinks happened in last 25 years, he'll tell you that "western world" deliberately ruined the country because it was too strong and they couldn't handle it any other way (slavic supremacy yo!)

Reality is that, while government can be rotten, people are to blame too. Most of you forgot that Ukrainians aren't that much different than Russians and that giving them democracy, won't implant them work ethics of German people or put them in a position to become leading world country in years to come. If Ukrainians were superior to Russian people (and not pretty much the same kind of people) as some of the comments imply, then none of this would happen. Smart people would fix the issue a lot sooner. Only when you have huge uneducated majority this happens.

What really frightens me is that even random folks like you Thomek, know that very well, but are sticking to it just because you want to see NATO base in Ukraine. Just because you want Russia to burn. If this community thought me something, is that you guys always say one thing while thinking something completely different.

I dont get your point Leshma. Why would anyone who thinks that Putin-Russia coused much interference in Ukraines politic should automatically be for NATO and Western-Supremacy??? I think its very well a coherent opinion to think that Russia did couse most of the trouble Ukraine is faced with now and also think that Ukraine should be independend. People should be strong enough to counter western attempts to buy-off the country as well as russian manipulations.

This opinion comes from a believe, where Europe and Russia could be friends. But that seems out of reach now  I admit. I think Putin messed this up and ruined the possiblity of good Euro-Russian relations. And no, I dont think we can blame US for this - I believe its a mess Putin created himself.  And furthermore I think only big difference from Russian people to others is theire history and that they can take more Vodka then others.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 04, 2014, 02:53:14 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 04, 2014, 01:12:03 pm
I bet that knight/warrior is Vovka
no, rather dat brave man with radio  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 04, 2014, 04:04:03 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 04, 2014, 12:50:27 pm
(click to show/hide)

Reminds me of Donetsk first protests, except that the overwhelmed side was the pro-EU guys and they were not doing anything.

(click to show/hide)

Are you really being surprised why they made a shieldwall facing that way though? Since the pro-RUS guys doesnt seem to be the winning side, nor do they throw shit directly on the cops, they orientate the shieldwall against the biggest threat, else they would have made a turtle or just backed off.
It could be that the police in the sector are with the pro-RUS people too, like many other policemen/soldiers who were sent to "deal with the terrorists", its not impossible they were turned against the pro-Kiev. But its more probable they just had orders to protect those that were the most heavily attacked, shielding civilians from projectiles. Police doesnt necessarily use its offensive weapon as a mean of stopping violence.

You could tell more of the story? Your link give access to hundreds of photos, there must be more to it than your summary  :P (obviously)



I will add that I dont think starting a trend of using the shortcut RUS for pro-RUS is really helpful, you will confuse many simple minds.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 04, 2014, 04:35:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 04, 2014, 04:04:03 pm
I will add that I dont think starting a trend of using the shortcut RUS for pro-RUS is really helpful, you will confuse many simple minds.

He already solved that issue at the end of his post.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 04, 2014, 04:46:04 pm
Reading that several hundred pro-rus activists attacked a police station on Odesa demandig the release of people arrested yesteday
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sir_Hans on May 05, 2014, 10:16:53 am
That guy in the medieval helmet is taking larping to a whole new level.  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 05, 2014, 12:20:54 pm
Shoulda seen the medieval enthusiasts at maidan  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Boerenlater on May 05, 2014, 03:32:50 pm
When Assad attacks protesters the Western world is angry but when Ukraine does it it's okay?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 05, 2014, 03:49:29 pm
Recently, things have changed in military industry. China stopped their collaboration with USA (NATO) when it comes to developing their own "superfighter". Now they get most parts they can't produce themselves from Russia. India and Russia also have joint venture in developing superfighter. Pakistan as well. No wonder USA/NATO decided to put extra pressure on Putin last year (Syria) and this year (Ukraine). Putin stopped being nice little drunk Russian boy and re-started work that has been done by USSR for decades. They again started producing weapons that are on par with USA latest offerings.

Right now doesn't seem like new Cold War have started yet, but it has already started last year.

Next conflict will probably emerge in middle east. It may sound strange, but it could easily become a war between Iran and rest of muslim countries in the area that are supported by USA. Iran is currently on Russian side of conflict.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 05, 2014, 04:52:31 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 05, 2014, 03:49:29 pm
[...] They again started producing weapons that are on par with USA latest offerings. [...]
No surprise there. When China is involved, we're talking about the exact same stuff since copy and paste is their speciality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 05, 2014, 07:12:12 pm
In other news...

Iran bans WhatsApp because of link to 'American Zionist' Mark Zuckerberg (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/04/iran-bans-whatsapp-because-link-to-american-zionist-mark-zuckerberg/)

Seems unrelated to this topic but it is related. They used the same language as Putin. It's obvious they are allied and what is their cause. Putin himself recently mentioned that internet is made and controlled by CIA and that he plans to detach Russian internet from american root servers.

@Molly: Well Russian design always had certain advantages to american made stuff, such as being more reliable under harsh conditions. But agree that Chinese are just copying, as always.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 05, 2014, 07:38:49 pm
It's the same with every technical development:

2 items of a similar product group have pro and con when compared to each other. Stating that Russian stuff is better than Murrican stuff is very likely not true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 05, 2014, 07:43:42 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2014, 07:38:49 pm
Stating that Russian stuff is better than Murrican stuff is very likely not true.


Whether generally or locally, this statement is not true at all times, or you need to add non-russian stuff in here too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2014, 07:43:55 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 05, 2014, 07:12:12 pm
In other news...

Iran bans WhatsApp because of link to 'American Zionist' Mark Zuckerberg (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/04/iran-bans-whatsapp-because-link-to-american-zionist-mark-zuckerberg/)

Seems unrelated to this topic but it is related. They used the same language as Putin. It's obvious they are allied and what is their cause. Putin himself recently mentioned that internet is made and controlled by CIA and that he plans to detach Russian internet from american root servers.
Not sure if ironic or just clueless how internet works...

I think russian mafia, which are feeding from illegal internet money, will create a revolt in russia if putler turns of their pr0n downloads... True story.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 05, 2014, 07:45:27 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2014, 07:43:55 pm
I think russian mafia, which are feeding from illegal internet money, will create a revolt in russia if putler turns of their pr0n downloads... True story.

Not too far from your average posting actually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 05, 2014, 07:48:44 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2014, 07:38:49 pm
It's the same with every technical development:

2 items of a similar product group have pro and con when compared to each other. Stating that Russian stuff is better than Murrican stuff is very likely not true.

Ak47 was better than M16 in VietNam
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 05, 2014, 08:01:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 05, 2014, 07:48:44 pm
Ak47 was better than M16 in VietNam

Only for people with next-to no training.

Also people always think in only raw firepower. How about you having to carry that gun all the time. Which one would you choose? The lighter or the heavier one?

Being able to outrange your enemy with better accuracy is also better than raw firepower that doesn't hit jack crap.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 05, 2014, 08:08:03 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 05, 2014, 08:01:59 pm
Only for people with next-to no training.

Also people always think in only raw firepower. How about you having to carry that gun all the time. Which one would you choose? The lighter or the heavier one?

Being able to outrange your enemy with better accuracy is also better than raw firepower that doesn't hit jack crap.


Quote from: AntiBlitz on October 02, 2013, 06:06:21 pm
it is god awful heavy, with a full magazine it feels like you are shouldering a cinder block, in comparison to lighter weapons like, the AR for instance its heavy, but it doesnt feel so crude and clunky.  ill go weight it real quick and let you know!

ADDED WEIGHTS FOR YOU XANT
the AK weighs 10lbs loaded with 30 rounds, the weight of the AK seems to rest in your front hand.
the AR weighs 7lbs loaded with 30 rounds, the weight seems to rest down from the trigger, which kind of balances the weight into both hands.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 05, 2014, 08:51:35 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 05, 2014, 07:12:12 pm
In other news...

Iran bans WhatsApp because of link to 'American Zionist' Mark Zuckerberg (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/04/iran-bans-whatsapp-because-link-to-american-zionist-mark-zuckerberg/)

Seems unrelated to this topic but it is related. They used the same language as Putin. It's obvious they are allied and what is their cause. Putin himself recently mentioned that internet is made and controlled by CIA and that he plans to detach Russian internet from american root servers.

@Molly: Well Russian design always had certain advantages to american made stuff, such as being more reliable under harsh conditions. But agree that Chinese are just copying, as always.

fox news... but okay it's not relevant here. I don't see the link with Putin. This is purely interior politics. As one of the world's most socially backwards and inflexible countries, Iran needs to keeps its youth under control. They are not waging war with the US when doing that. If anything, Iran looks more like Turkey, which is about as much anti-Russia as you can find.

By the way, the best battle rifle is the FAL, the best AR is the F-2000, the best PDW is the P90 and the best handgun is the Five-Seven.*

*: In video games
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 05, 2014, 08:57:09 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 05, 2014, 08:51:35 pm


By the way, the best battle rifle is the FAL, the best AR is the F-2000, the best PDW is the P90 and the best handgun is the Five-Seven.*

*: In video games


Ewww semi-auto piece of crap FAIL more like it. And ewww firerate that makes ur recoil troll u and gay looking P90 and mini penis pistol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 05, 2014, 09:14:51 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 05, 2014, 08:57:09 pm

Ewww semi-auto piece of crap FAIL more like it. And ewww firerate that makes ur recoil troll u and gay looking P90 and mini penis pistol


real life is not CoD you know
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 05, 2014, 09:22:41 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 05, 2014, 08:57:09 pm

Ewww semi-auto piece of crap FAIL more like it. And ewww firerate that makes ur recoil troll u and gay looking P90 and mini penis pistol

You know what FAL actually means, right?

._.

(click to show/hide)

If that was trolling it's pretty bad. pls stahp.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 09:49:29 pm
Ну, выдроки, отродье , это теперь твоё,  Дейв и твоё Серр.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:02:06 pm
cyka bljat pizdc pidr

Also not ukraine related but russia related

Russian law bans swearing in arts and media (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27286742)

Haha. How are you going to translate movies now, Ivans? Where is your god now.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 05, 2014, 10:04:30 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 09:49:29 pm
Ну, блядины отроки, отродье пидорово, это теперь твоё, блядь, Дейв и Серр выродьё.
Эт ты о чем ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 05, 2014, 10:20:14 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 09:49:29 pm
Ну, блядины отроки, отродье пидорово, это теперь твоё, блядь, Дейв и Серр выродьё.
That was so much profanity, i actually have trouble understanding wtf is that supposed to mean :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 10:21:58 pm
О  канибалах, о чмошных толерантах и мультикультуралистах. Эти ... , с их модного соглашательства, кидают атомные бомбы на побеждённую не ими Японию (аж 2 ), бомбят города Югославии, жгут людей в Одессе. Пипец как смешно. Не надо словесов и юмора про дикарей. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:23:05 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 05, 2014, 10:20:14 pm
That was so much profanity, i actually have trouble understanding wtf is that supposed to mean :lol:

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 10:21:58 pm
О говнопидорах и канибалах, о чмошных толерантах и мультикультуралистах. Эти бляди, с их модного соглашательства, кидают атомные бомбы на побеждённую не ими Японию (аж 2 блядь), бомбят города Югославии, жгут людей в Одессе. Пиздец как смешно. Не надо словесов и юмора про дикарей.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 10:25:40 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:23:05 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Отсосёшь ещё. У них же.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:27:38 pm
Well, this should be good, I mean, Ivanich's claim of calling the west savages and bringing in Japan ww2 is surely interesting.

Now now. I must.. not.

The spic.. drama must flow!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 05, 2014, 10:31:19 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:27:38 pm
Well, this should be good, I mean, Ivanich's claim of calling the west savages and bringing in Japan ww2 is surely interesting.

Now now. I must.. not.

The spic.. drama must flow!
You are so savage, you will have no choice but to suck the cock of your slavliberators.

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 10:25:40 pm
Отсосёшь ещё. У них же.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 05, 2014, 10:34:02 pm
So before it was which fascist world leader we follow, now its whose cock we will suck? I can totally see that thread going in the right direction, as bodies pile up even higher in Eastern Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:35:06 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 05, 2014, 10:31:19 pm
You are so savage, you will have no choice but to suck the cock of your slavliberators.

Eh?

.-.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 05, 2014, 10:38:29 pm
Do you know the story of the goddess Europa ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28mythology%29
She was fucked and raped by Zeus... Ze US !

Culture...  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2014, 10:42:27 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:35:06 pm
Eh?

.-.
That was actually a quite relevant translation imo...

Wonder what started this "mind-flow-of-rage" in this "high-russian-chant-language", which - as of recently - has to be approved as NOT swearing, before it can be used as an art... Ivania - aren't you afraid your creativity will be crushed?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 05, 2014, 10:45:39 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:35:06 pm
Eh?

.-.
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on May 05, 2014, 10:25:40 pm
You'll suck cock yet. Theirs even.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 05, 2014, 10:55:53 pm
Thanks ptx.

Google translate, hell every web translater I tried had problems translating it. Not sure if shit grammar or it's just too russian for internet.

Ivanich kindly go and F yourself please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on May 05, 2014, 11:02:51 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 04, 2014, 12:50:27 pm
Cops are protecting nаzies with shieldwall:

why do na.zies have red 5 pointed stars on their shields?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 05, 2014, 11:08:06 pm
Red 5-pointed star - probably meant as symbol of Soviet Union and communism, which, basically, is a symbol of Russian power nowadays.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 05, 2014, 11:34:16 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2014, 07:43:55 pm
Not sure if ironic or just clueless how internet works...

I think russian mafia, which are feeding from illegal internet money, will create a revolt in russia if putler turns of their pr0n downloads... True story.
Rus Government wants to create our own Internet with blackjack & censorshipanti-CIA protection. Pretty similar to Korea model.
They want to name it Cheburashka (https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0+%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82&newwindow=1&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=bv9nU9SqOOTK4ATMqYGoCA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1304&bih=683#newwindow=1&q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0&tbm=isch) . No, I'm not trolling  :|

But we don't have internet mafia since everything is "free" here  :rolleyes:


About Ivani4 rage: there are 2 main versions about Odessa stuff:
1)Pro-Russians attacked Ukrainian march, were protected by cops, eventually got outnumbered, retreated & partially retreated to the building. Then after molotovs exchange they accidentally set their building on fire, eliminating themselves & pro-Ukrainians who were storming the building. Some were saved by pro-Ukrainians & hospitalized\arrested.
I believe this one since there are a lot of evidences(tons of youtube included)

2)Right sector benderovtzi-nаzi disguised themselves as pro-Russians & attacked Ukrainian march, to justify witchhunt on legit pro-Russians. A lot of innocents died, everybody who tried to evacuate from burning building were finished off by banderovtzi.
This is that Ivani4 & most of Russians believe. Just read some RT articles. I hope now you could understand his rage.
There are even more extreme versions about 200 women & old ppl corpses who still are being secretly evacuated from the building.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 05, 2014, 11:43:51 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 05, 2014, 11:34:16 pm
Rus Government wants to create our own Internet with blackjack & censorshipanti-CIA protection. Pretty similar to Korea model.
They want to name it Cheburashka (https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0+%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82&newwindow=1&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=bv9nU9SqOOTK4ATMqYGoCA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1304&bih=683#newwindow=1&q=%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0&tbm=isch) . No, I'm not trolling  :|
But we don't have internet mafia since everything is "free" here  :rolleyes:
1 man it's not a goverment? stop farming fame from silly eumy old friends XD

Quote from: Segd on May 05, 2014, 11:34:16 pm
(click to show/hide)
when both sides threw dozens of  molotovs  only silly guy can say with confidence who is guilty in set fire

anyway if u take stone or molotov u must be shooted in same time as u throw it in people, no matter who they're pro-eu or pro-rus
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 05, 2014, 11:51:51 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 05, 2014, 11:43:51 pm
1 man it's not a goverment? stop farming fame from silly eumy old friends XD
 when both sides threw dozens of  molotovs  only silly guy can say with confidence who is guilty in set fire
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/04/putin-says-internet-cia-project-201442563249711810.html
Just wait few months. We are already creating our own Mastercard\Visa analog because they are controlled by NWO. Chebu Rashka Internet will follow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2014, 11:59:32 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 05, 2014, 11:43:51 pm
1 man it's not a goverment? stop farming fame from silly eumy old friends XD
Still funneh though. Whatchu gonna get for "free" when that "free" stuff in beyond cheburachkas big ears?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Vovka on May 05, 2014, 11:43:51 pm
when both sides threw dozens of  molotovs  only silly guy can say with confidence who is guilty in set fire
And what do YOU believe? If comrade putler asks "do you want us to go to war to restore order and cease these banderovcy style attacks on 200 grannies and kids (you know - "think of the kids!")" - will you go?

Quote from: Vovka on May 05, 2014, 11:43:51 pm
anyway if u take stone or molotov u must be shooted in same time as u throw it in people, no matter who they're pro-eu or pro-rus
While I understand the sentiment and wish for immediate retribution - what in fact HAD to happen was police forces creating a barrier and preventing both crowds mixing. Lethal response is extreme measure to be used in only the most of extreme situations. Not following this rule is what gave birth to the ugly situation first in Maidan, then (indirectly) annexation of Crimea, then bullshit in easter Ukraine and recently - in Odesa.
Its reasonable to ask participants of protest to NOT wear masks. Its reasonable to TEMPORARY detain the hooligans disagreeing. Its not reasonable to shoot at a crowd throwing rocks at you, if you are riot police. Riot police is there to calm everyone the fuck down and arrest most aggressive ones, not shoot their own citizens. I would say good example of police NOT shooting crowd and eventually calming everything down was during London riots few years ago.

So all in all - crowds of angry people acted as crowds do, police handing of this whole situation was appalling at best or worthy of being named "crime" in itself if taken to extreme.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on May 06, 2014, 12:00:56 am
Как ты, Сегд, деликатно обошел видео, где, прыгающих из подожженого здание, людей добивают.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 06, 2014, 12:04:10 am
Quote from: Yarl on May 06, 2014, 12:00:56 am
Как ты, Сегд, деликатно обошел видео, где, прыгающих из подожженого здание, людей добивают.
А видео, где спасают, смотрел? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 12:07:12 am
Quote from: Segd on May 05, 2014, 11:51:51 pm
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/04/putin-says-internet-cia-project-201442563249711810.html
Just wait few months. We are already creating our own Mastercard\Visa analog because they are controlled by NWO. Chebu Rashka Internet will follow.

I guess he's jealous the guys at the Pentagon don't help him spy on his "subjects" like the other big boys. Even though saying the Internet is a CIA project is ridiculous, it's a secret to no one that internet surveillance goes on with basically no checks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 06, 2014, 12:07:20 am
Quote from: Segd on May 06, 2014, 12:04:10 am
А видео, где спасают, смотрел? :)
Probably RT skipped it... well... how can you blame the media, internet is too big to cover everything!  :rolleyes: Like... e.g. the medicine woman who was kicking pro-ukraine injured in underground passage few weeks ago? You know... ACCIDENT :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on May 06, 2014, 12:14:01 am
Это отменяет первое?  Раз уже освещаешь события, то почему бы все не выкладывать, а не только-то, что можно продать бургам за плюсики.
Я для себя решил не смотреть за новостями, мама только-только с украины вернулась, рассказывала что и как там по тв крутят, ну и с парочкой друзей переписываюсь иногда, на этом все вроде. Но это дичь вообще.
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Quote from: Kuujis on May 06, 2014, 12:07:20 am
Probably RT skipped it... well... how can you blame the media, internet is too big to cover everything!  :rolleyes: Like... e.g. the medicine woman who was kicking pro-ukraine injured in underground passage few weeks ago? You know... ACCIDENT :rolleyes:
oh dear
You waste too much time  here  and you are full of hate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 06, 2014, 12:16:03 am
Rescue video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFizwV3JXCo

P.S. 13:50 - siege tower.

Yarl,
Я точно таких же коментариев, но про жидобандеровцев, от русской фашни в десятки раз больше наблюдаю. Видимо потому, что на российских сайтах сижу :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on May 06, 2014, 12:44:52 am
Quote from: Segd on May 06, 2014, 12:16:03 am


Yarl,
Я точно таких же коментариев, но про жидобандеровцев, от русской фашни в десятки раз больше наблюдаю. Видимо потому, что на российских сайтах сижу :)
Ну и опять это не отменяет первого. Что вообще за логика такая, раз там больше, то этим можно чтоле? Да и речь не об этом была, а о том, что если выкладываешь факапы одной стороны, то выкладывай и второй.


Sorry for russian, guys. I hope it was my last post here.  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 06, 2014, 01:00:11 am
Well.

It can indeed be seen that the molotovs, that seem to light the building up, are thrown from pro-ukrainian side.

Sad event.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 06, 2014, 02:18:36 am
Quote from: Segd on May 05, 2014, 11:34:16 pm
About Ivani4 rage: there are 2 main versions about Odessa stuff:
1)Pro-Russians attacked Ukrainian march, were protected by cops, eventually got outnumbered, retreated & partially retreated to the building. Then after molotovs exchange they accidentally set their building on fire, eliminating themselves & pro-Ukrainians who were storming the building. Some were saved by pro-Ukrainians & hospitalized\arrested.
I believe this one since there are a lot of evidences(tons of youtube included)

2)Right sector benderovtzi-nаzi disguised themselves as pro-Russians & attacked Ukrainian march, to justify witchhunt on legit pro-Russians. A lot of innocents died, everybody who tried to evacuate from burning building were finished off by banderovtzi.
This is that Ivani4 & most of Russians believe. Just read some RT articles. I hope now you could understand his rage.
There are even more extreme versions about 200 women & old ppl corpses who still are being secretly evacuated from the building.


Why not version you said at the beginning?

The fact you're now trying to push a version where pro-UKR saved the pro-RUS from killing themselves is a bit too much  :lol:

Protests are never 100% extremists people, so it is highly probable some tried to rescue their ukrainian kin that were trapped inside (they deserve praises), but saying that actually no pro-UKR threw molotov in the building is bull.


Probably some provocateur disguised themselves in the middle of all this shit but its hardly to take into account. The important thing that could enrage people here is that basically, those that threws the molotov inside the building are murderers. Throwing cocktails in Maidan at cops in robocops suits did injuries/deaths too, you can perfectly guess what it will result in if you throw it on civilians in t-shirts and jeans, so it cant really be explained nor justified... whatever the scope of the protest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 06, 2014, 06:37:08 am
The only thing more painful in this thread than Butan is Leshma pretending to know anything about US, Russia and China relations and what the balance of power is and why.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 06, 2014, 07:19:48 am
Quote from: Xant on May 06, 2014, 06:37:08 am
The only thing more painful in this thread than Butan is Leshma pretending to know anything about US, Russia and China relations and what the balance of power is and why.

Leshma is as tight with Chinese, USA and Russia and knows everything about their moves just as he knows everything that crpg devs are planning
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 06, 2014, 09:05:12 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2014, 11:59:32 pm
Still funneh though. Whatchu gonna get for "free" when that "free" stuff in beyond cheburachkas big ears?  :rolleyes:
And what do YOU believe? If comrade putler asks "do you want us to go to war to restore order and cease these banderovcy style attacks on 200 grannies and kids (you know - "think of the kids!")" - will you go?
in this world there is no black or white, good or evil, and you are again offering me to choose just one. Personally, I think that people should choose their government and act according to the decisions of the government does not matter whether they like it or not. But if you are not satisfied with decision of the government, next time you can choose another onee. And do not perform the solutions that you like, and protest against those you do not like.
 
  What about Ukraine, it's just bloody show for these assholes like you, all the important decisions have long been made ​​and agreed upon by all main participants. And now they just want to make the people believe that all that happened is the people did but not by pair fatty bastards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 09:21:44 am
Omg serious vovka
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 06, 2014, 09:27:37 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 09:21:44 am
Omg serious vovka
yep in an ideal world it would have worked, but not in ours, where most of people are stupid sheep ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 09:40:53 am
Omg you posted serious shit twice in a row.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 06, 2014, 09:42:16 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 09:40:53 am
Omg you posted serious shit twice in a row.
call me just vovka
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 06, 2014, 10:18:03 am
Quote from: Butan on May 06, 2014, 02:18:36 am
Why not version you said at the beginning?
Try to read texts more carefully. Or don't read at all, go play outside.
The only difference between my messages is who set the building on fire(I didn't mentioned it at all in my first post actually, so gtfo). & the main(as I said in my second post. Get it? Words, they matter, read them!) pro-Ukrainian version is that it was defenders fault.
Although both parties could easily do it, both sides(RUS & UKR mass media) blame each other.

Here is a nice example, btw
http://gorlis-gorsky.livejournal.com/16311.html
The analysis of lies that main Russian channel(98,8% of population coverage) "reported" about Odessa. Old school German nаzies look like puppies after this report.
Of course there are a lot of bullshit on Ukrainian TV but who watches them? :)
It is also the main Russian channel in Ukraine. & then it reports such crap, bunch of Ivani4es arm themselves & take another Slovyansk.
So if you still think that it is not Russian fault that Pro-Russian Ukrainians do separatist shit, think better.

P.S. in 3 days there would be even greater shitshtorm.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 06, 2014, 03:51:12 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 06, 2014, 10:18:03 am
Try to read texts more carefully. Or don't read at all, go play outside.
The only difference between my messages is who set the building on fire(I didn't mentioned it at all in my first post actually, so gtfo). & the main(as I said in my second post. Get it? Words, they matter, read them!) pro-Ukrainian version is that it was defenders fault.
Although both parties could easily do it, both sides(RUS & UKR mass media) blame each other.

Sorry to insist but I see difference between your two posts about it:

Quote from: Segd on May 04, 2014, 12:50:27 pm
Short story: [...] Finally, some RUS hided inside wannabe-grill building. Both sides continued to throw shit & molotovs, some fires started, some UKR gone inside to kick asses. Fire spreaded, a lot of dead(both RUS & UKR). The end.

Quote from: Segd on May 05, 2014, 11:34:16 pm
1)Then after molotovs exchange they accidentally set their building on fire, eliminating themselves & pro-Ukrainians who were storming the building. Some were saved by pro-Ukrainians & hospitalized\arrested.
I believe this one since there are a lot of evidences(tons of youtube included)

I dont understand why you would need to add "I believe this one more", since as you say in your post, RUS tv spew bullshit, UKR tv spew bullshit, so why try to argue that one of them is the truth?  :rolleyes:  You should have stayed to stating versions neutrally if you dont want to be criticized, or you're trying to troll like Xant? Noone reads him anymore, is that what you want?  :P

No need to be a genius to guess that nor the side which says "UKR threw all molotovs and watched them die" is wrong, and the side which says "RUS threw molotovs in the building themselves and UKR tried to save them" is equally stupid wrong  :rolleyes:



Quote
Here is a nice example, btw
http://gorlis-gorsky.livejournal.com/16311.html
The analysis of lies that main Russian channel(98,8% of population coverage) "reported" about Odessa. Old school German nаzies look like puppies after this report.
Of course there are a lot of bullshit on Ukrainian TV but who watches them? :)
It is also the main Russian channel in Ukraine. & then it reports such crap, bunch of Ivani4es arm themselves & take another Slovyansk.
So if you still think that it is not Russian fault that Pro-Russian Ukrainians do separatist shit, think better.


No fucking shit, there is a propaganda war on TV?  :) 
Also why do you just say "Ukrainian TV", you should know that what you can see on UKR TV, all of Europe see the same bullshit. I am fed anti-Putin informations day in and day out since december 2013. There is only Oberyn to listen to them and prepare to take arms against the evil fascist warmongering power.
Same for Russian TV, the people that completely fall in the trap that US/EU is fascist chocolate chip cookie are stupid. The only legit point they bring is that the west does want their destruction quite bad for a long long time, so its only a return of a favor to create new counter-propaganda media and other projects.

Read both reports and form your own opinion. You dont have to stick to one side or another. Well, except if you want to win cool points with guys like Kuujis.

Both sides are necessary to see the truth anyway. 95% of the videos where you see maidan protesters being more violent than usual, are tagged RUPTLY (russian channel), so you need to go check the RU side to see things you couldnt elsewhere. The opposite is true for the videos where you see eastern ukraine pro-RUS people being more violent than usual, its more likely they are from a non-RUS channel.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2014, 04:09:05 pm
After some monthes half of the truth will come out. And we will see what happened as it was in Georgia in 2008. Russia exactly won't enter army to Ukraine because it is wanted by parliament of the USA to condemn Russia in aggression. Putin is not that stupid. Later will see, it is a pity that many people can die before the truth will come out, because the agression will be from both sides.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 04:20:31 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 06, 2014, 03:51:12 pm
The only legit point they bring is that the west does want their destruction quite bad for a long long time

lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 06, 2014, 05:03:28 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 06, 2014, 09:05:12 am
in this world there is no black or white, good or evil, and you are again offering me to choose just one. Personally, I think that people should choose their government and act according to the decisions of the government does not matter whether they like it or not. But if you are not satisfied with decision of the government, next time you can choose another onee. And do not perform the solutions that you like, and protest against those you do not like.
 
  What about Ukraine, it's just bloody show for these assholes like you, all the important decisions have long been made ​​and agreed upon by all main participants. And now they just want to make the people believe that all that happened is the people did but not by pair fatty bastards.
Its not about it being black or white, it never is, especially in a situation like the current one in Ukraine. Its about whether you would follow your leader to this I daresay intentional bloodbath or not.

Also - color me naive, but things CAN change after these unrests. I lived through it. I know it personally. And if I need to name one quality of all this process - it would be "HARD", because trying to fix broken shit is never easy.

Quote from: Butan on May 06, 2014, 03:51:12 pm
(click to show/hide)

I like people like you, when I'm drunk and don't have anything better to do: always in contrarian shit-corner, always spewing shit about things that you can't make up your own mind because of some fucked up reason or another AND best of all - ALWAYS up for a most bullshit of bullshitty like argument about what ever  :rolleyes:

Lets see :)

Sorry to insist but I see difference between your two posts about it: Soo... Whats the difference? Can you please name/shame/identify it? Elaborate more? Throwing something out and not being specific is acceptable in contrarian corner, when you want some more arguments for the sake of arguments. In most other cases - ACTUALLY SAYING WHAT YOU MEAN IS PREFERABLE  :shock: I know... shocking.

I dont understand why you would need to add "I believe this one more", since as you say in your post, RUS tv spew bullshit, UKR tv spew bullshit, so why try to argue that one of them is the truth?  :rolleyes:  You should have stayed to stating versions neutrally if you dont want to be criticized, or you're trying to troll like Xant? Noone reads him anymore, is that what you want?  :P

No need to be a genius to guess that nor the side which says "UKR threw all molotovs and watched them die" is wrong, and the side which says "RUS threw molotovs in the building themselves and UKR tried to save them" is equally stupid wrong  :rolleyes:
You start somewhat ok and then... just contrarian corner bullshit, sorry :). A person sees what he sees, sees does his own conclusions, has his oppinion, which I would say is reasonable, given what info is available. So? Care to post your own? Or would it sound like "I do not agree with anyone, even if they were there and died in the fire themselves, because they are not perfectly impartial"? And ofc - ending statement in false alternative construct is becoming a classic  :rolleyes: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... in contrarian corner you need a scientific experiment under controlled conditions to confirm, that this is a duck. Autopsy also helps.

Both sides are necessary to see the truth anyway. 95% of the videos where you see maidan protesters being more violent than usual, are tagged RUPTLY (russian channel), so you need to go check the RU side to see things you couldnt elsewhere. The opposite is true for the videos where you see eastern ukraine pro-RUS people being more violent than usual, its more likely they are from a non-RUS channel.
While I agree with the premise, the selection of "sides" to compare is bullshit - you are comparing the sides of "russia owned state media" with 90% of the rest of the world media, which is obviously Mason/US/Alien controlled, thus ALL worthy of equal trust with the drones of putler. Yeah.... how about NO.

Also - 99% of numbers posted in this post are bullshit made op on the spot :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 06, 2014, 05:27:17 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 06, 2014, 05:03:28 pm
I like people like you, when I'm drunk and don't have anything better to do

I finally understand whats your problem...



Quote from: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 04:20:31 pm
lol

?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 06, 2014, 06:59:38 pm
Nothing about this in western medias :





Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 07:32:12 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 06, 2014, 05:27:17 pm
?

...


What makes you think that ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 06, 2014, 07:33:33 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 06, 2014, 07:39:45 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 07:32:12 pm
...


What makes you think that ?


The 250 pages of facts you're actually in ?  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 06, 2014, 08:01:26 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 08:11:32 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 06, 2014, 07:33:33 pm
(click to show/hide)

Please Dave, after that, tell me why you`re country does not deserve to be bombed back to the fucking stone age?


+18
(click to show/hide)

Ukranians deserve to be sent at Gulags for their whole lives.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 06, 2014, 08:14:13 pm
Panos, I hope you realize that guys who did that share certain beliefs with your precious Golden Dawn :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 08:17:44 pm
Apart the fact that Greece was never allied with the nazees, quite the opposite, Golden Dawn is a nationalistic Political Party, not a chocolate chip cookie party like the Right Sector.

And I doubt that Greek nationalists would treat other Europeans like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 06, 2014, 08:18:04 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 06, 2014, 08:30:34 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 08:11:32 pm
Please Dave, after that, tell me why you`re country does not deserve to be bombed back to the fucking stone age?


+18
(click to show/hide)

Ukranians deserve to be sent at Gulags for their whole lives.
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 08:17:44 pm
And I doubt that Greek nationalists would treat other Europeans like that.
It's mindnumbing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 08:57:41 pm
The only mindnumbing thing around here is you, Kafein and all those other retards who kept calling the Russians fascists, animals and other shit like that, who were trying to prey against the innocent ukranians  :lol:

Deal with it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 06, 2014, 09:10:15 pm
He doesn't even realize what he wrote. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 09:11:58 pm
I know exactly what I wrote.

http://el.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mind%20numbing

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 06, 2014, 09:13:06 pm
Nope, don't think you understood what ptx was on about... nevermind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 06, 2014, 09:14:23 pm
At least, he has a little heart.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 06, 2014, 09:16:04 pm
Well, tbh... gimme 2 hours and I craft a completely different story out of all those pictures, giving only the pro-rus dudes the blame.

If you accept that "thing" as truth... well, I wouldn't even know where to start laughing about you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 09:19:23 pm
There we go again!!!

Everything against Russia = 100% TRUTH
Something against Ukraine = 100% Mindnumbing idiotic propaganda made by idiots like me and Butan

European hippies in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 06, 2014, 09:23:42 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 08:11:32 pm
Please Dave, after that, tell me why you`re country does not deserve to be bombed back to the fucking stone age?


+18
(click to show/hide)

Ukranians deserve to be sent at Gulags for their whole lives.

You do realise this is done by nationalists in their own country to the foreigners, something you promote all the time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 09:25:42 pm
What?
Find me a single post that I promote burning aliens or murdering them, and I swear to god Ill ask from cmp to ban me.

There is a big difference on wanting to kick the aliens out of your country, BECAUSE THE LAW SAYS IT, and burning them alive.

And as I said already, Ukranian right sector = Nazees, Golden Dawn = Greek patriotic movent
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 06, 2014, 09:34:39 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 09:25:42 pm
What?
Find me a single post that I promote burning aliens or murdering them, and I swear to god Ill ask from cmp to ban me.

There is a big difference on wanting to kick the aliens out of your country, BECAUSE THE LAW SAYS IT, and burning them alive.

And as I said already, Ukranian right sector = Nazees, Golden Dawn = Greek patriotic movent

By kicking them out you mean polighty asking them to leave while you escort them out of the country singing and giving them gifts of olive oil and black olives. please...

By the way, Russian do the same thing to foreigners in their own country, not literally burning them alive but hunting them around cities and beating even killing asian looking immigrants (those from more eastern parts of ex USSR) so pls don't play the devils advocate here.

Both sides are doing disgusting things in this conflict and this is only the start I'm afraid. You keep trying to justify the Russian actions and symphatise with them any way you like, but I bet if Turks invaded Greece you would be on this forum applauding you fellow patriots for protecting the homeland by any means necessary of some similar sounding bullcrap.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2014, 09:35:35 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on May 06, 2014, 09:23:42 pm
You do realise this is done by nationalists in their own country to the foreigners, something you promote all the time.
What foreigners do you speak about, all who were killed in Ukraine were ukrainians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 09:43:46 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on May 06, 2014, 09:34:39 pm
By kicking them out you mean polighty asking them to leave while you escort them out of the country singing and giving them gifts of olive oil and black olives. please...

By the way, Russian do the same thing to foreigners in their own country, not literally burning them alive but hunting them around cities and beating even killing asian looking immigrants (those from more eastern parts of ex USSR) so pls don't play the devils advocate here.

Both sides are doing disgusting things in this conflict and this is only the start I'm afraid. You keep trying to justify the Russian actions and symphatise with them any way you like, but I bet if Turks invaded Greece you would be on this forum applauding you fellow patriots for protecting the homeland by any means necessary of some similar sounding bullcrap.

What about all the Russians that have died from immigrants and Chechen muslims?

Do you need me to refresh your memory? in 2004 30 chechens killed 100~ russian kids when they attacked a SCHOOL, A FUCKING SCHOOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

I don`t know if Croatia has a lot of muslim immigrants, but in Greece, everyday we have thousands that try to enter the country from Turkey, and in a country thats already devasted by austerity meausers, having some thousands illegal immigrants can be crippling.

And there is a big difference, in killing an armed man who invaded your country and choking a pregnant woman to death with a telephone wire.

I`m no ones advocate, but it amazes me that modern europeans are ready to bent their assess to aliens just because they don`t want to be called  fascists and  racists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2014, 09:47:50 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on May 06, 2014, 09:34:39 pm
By the way, Russian do the same thing to foreigners in their own country, not literally burning them alive but hunting them around cities and beating even killing asian looking immigrants (those from more eastern parts of ex USSR) so pls don't play the devils advocate here.
Lol man where did you get this from? I live in Tatarstan if you know what is it, and half of the people is asian looking here. And in Bashkiria the same. All chocolate chip cookies who have beaten asians are in jail now and it was 10 years ago
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 06, 2014, 09:49:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2014, 09:47:50 pm
Lol man where did you get this from?

Probably from his local TV station.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 06, 2014, 09:54:39 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 09:43:46 pm
What about all the Russians that have died from immigrants and Chechen muslims?

Do you need me to refresh your memory? in 2004 30 chechens killed 100~ russian kids when they attacked a SCHOOL, A FUCKING SCHOOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

I don`t know if Croatia has a lot of muslim immigrants, but in Greece, everyday we have thousands that try to enter the country from Turkey, and in a country thats already devasted by austerity meausers, having some thousands illegal immigrants can be crippling.

And there is a big difference, in killing an armed man who invaded your country and choking a pregnant woman to death with a telephone wire.

I`m no ones advocate, but it amazes me that modern europeans are ready to bent their assess to aliens just because they don`t want to be called  fascists and  racists.

and again those Chechens are nationalists fighting for their own countrys independence and separation from Russia since the fall of USSR
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2014, 10:01:08 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on May 06, 2014, 09:54:39 pm
and again those Chechens are nationalists fighting for their own countrys independence and separation from Russia since the fall of USSR
lol man again. Have you been to Chechnya? If not then go there and enter first home and ask do they wanted to fight against Russia for independece, so they killed school girls and boys?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 06, 2014, 10:03:09 pm
Prips, what did you tell me about arguing with Panos?

inb4 butthurt pictures posted
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Berserkadin on May 06, 2014, 10:27:12 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 08:11:32 pm
Please Dave, after that, tell me why you`re country does not deserve to be bombed back to the fucking stone age?


+18
(click to show/hide)

Ukranians deserve to be sent at Gulags for their whole lives.
Panos, thats just some nazes like yourself that are killing "communists", aren't you happy about that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 06, 2014, 10:42:40 pm
The only good nazee is the greek nazee. You should know that  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 06, 2014, 11:06:41 pm

remind me dat  :P
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 06, 2014, 11:44:01 pm
Russia: 'Swearbot' to root out online obscenities (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27294848)

)))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 06, 2014, 11:56:53 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 08:11:32 pm
Please Dave, after that, tell me why you`re country does not deserve to be bombed back to the fucking stone age?


+18
(click to show/hide)

Ukranians deserve to be sent at Gulags for their whole lives.

If I follow your logic, because the Right Sector did this, killed other Ukrainians, then Ukraine should be bombed and Ukrainians deserve to be sent at Gulags for their whole lives ?

By the same logic, all English citizens should die because of the IRA bombings, as well as all Spaniards with the terrorist branch of the Basque separatists. Also all French because Corse. Pretty much everybody deserves to die if having some extremist group do bad things in the country one lives in is reason enough to be killed yourself. What the fuck Panos.


Edit: Maybe I have an explanation for Panos's apparent insanity. Maybe that to him freedom of thought is not a real thing. Therefore all the citizens of a country automatically have the same opinions. Then by that logic if a nationalist group in your country does whatever nationalist groups do, like what happened in Odessa, you are also to blame because you have the same opinions as them and would do the same thing. In retrospective that sounds like exactly the kind of things the average nationalist grunt would think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2014, 12:17:52 am
I don't know which propoganda works better western or eastern, but when Kiev in live stream progamme known as Shuster-live heard that people die in Odessa. Most of the people that were sitting in this progaramme applauded, thinking that those people were russians who were dying in Odessa. So seems to me western propaganda works better. But there was silence when people knew that all people who died in Odessa were ukranians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 07, 2014, 12:29:21 am
Quote from: Christo on May 06, 2014, 11:44:01 pm
Russia: 'Swearbot' to root out online obscenities (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27294848)
)))
Dota is in danger blyadb'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on May 07, 2014, 06:06:00 am
Panos must have missed the Cospy episode where he explained the shades of grey thingy. So now in our beloved Greek's mind there exists only black and white, good and evil, red-pilled and the sheep. With a fucked up view of the world like that he has to make retarded classifications like "Ukraining far right thugs = nazí, Greece far right thugs = righteous patriots". Only a Sith deals in absolutes but on a second thought it makes stuff pretty easy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on May 07, 2014, 08:56:49 am
Quote from: Paul on May 07, 2014, 06:06:00 am
Panos must have missed the Cospy episode where he explained the shades of grey thingy. So now in our beloved Greek's mind there exists only black and white, good and evil, red-pilled and the sheep. With a fucked up view of the world like that he has to make retarded classifications like "Ukraining far right thugs = nazí, Greece far right thugs = righteous patriots". Only a Sith deals in absolutes but on a second thought it makes stuff pretty easy.

"The only moral abortion welfare fascist is my country's fascists!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 07, 2014, 09:31:13 am
Quote from: Prpavi on May 05, 2014, 09:14:51 pm

real life is not CoD you know

Welp my life is a lie. Why can't i put suppressors on my 44 revolver IRL QQ
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 07, 2014, 10:02:10 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 07, 2014, 09:31:13 am
Welp my life is a lie. Why can't i put suppressors on my 44 revolver IRL QQ

because you want to be heard when you fire off that bigg ass manly gun and hopefully attract more suspects into your aim duuuh
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 10:29:12 am
:lol: @ Ivani4 and Panos

There is an investigation currently and one of the main versions now is that building got actually prepared for such kind of actions. Corpses have inadequate injuries and SBU found boxes with special toxic substances. So this might be a prepared provocation (everyone knows for whom it would be better). But it's just another conspiracy shit and is not investigated yet. What I can say for sure is that obviously pro-Russians just entrapped their own people.

Meanwhile, the 2nd wave of mobilization started. They want to get 40k of additional forces (partially changing those who got mobilized a month ago).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 07, 2014, 10:42:53 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 10:29:12 am
:lol: @ Ivani4 and Panos

There is an investigation currently and one of the main versions now is that building got actually prepared for such kind of actions. Corpses have inadequate injuries and SBU found boxes with special toxic substances. So this might be a prepared provocation (everyone knows for whom it would be better). But it's just another conspiracy shit and is not investigated yet. What I can say for sure is that obviously pro-Russians just entrapped their own people.

Meanwhile, the 2nd wave of mobilization started. They want to get 40k of additional forces (partially changing those who got mobilized a month ago).

Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 06, 2014, 09:19:23 pm
There we go again!!!

Everything against Russia = 100% TRUTH
Something against Ukraine = 100% Mindnumbing idiotic propaganda made by idiots like me and Butan

European hippies in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2014, 11:14:04 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 07, 2014, 10:42:53 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 11:18:11 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 07, 2014, 10:42:53 am


But how do you know who is who? You can't even distinguish where is pro-russian/pro-ukrainian. Same shit goes for Butan. How could your info have any value then?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 07, 2014, 11:33:37 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 11:18:11 am
But how do you know who is who? You can't even distinguish where is pro-russian/pro-ukrainian. Same shit goes for Butan. How could your info have any value then?  :lol:

This.

Like it or not Dave destroyed one of those picture "facts" here a few pages back, and if I remember right complete silence followed it.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 07, 2014, 11:41:10 am
Quote from: Molly on May 06, 2014, 09:16:04 pm
Well, tbh... gimme 2 hours and I craft a completely different story out of all those pictures, giving only the pro-rus dudes the blame.

If you accept that "thing" as truth... well, I wouldn't even know where to start laughing about you.
Grab a few pictures, mark them with red arrows, dots, circles and anything else Paint.exe lets you draw, come up with some probable explanations that fit your side of the story and piece everything together...

Those picture-stories are the very last source of information I'd ever consider.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2014, 11:54:24 am
Quote from: Christo on May 07, 2014, 11:33:37 am
This.

Like it or not Dave destroyed one of those picture "facts" here a few pages back, and if I remember right complete silence followed it.

Also - lets maybe fast roll back to the places where "little green men were not russian special forces", then fast forward to putler admitting contrary, then lets enjoy Butan not believing even putler, because <some reason>  :rolleyes:

Except this was not silence for me, I laughed loud  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on May 07, 2014, 12:01:01 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 10:29:12 am
What I can say for sure is that obviously pro-Russians just entrapped their own people.

-_-

This is a bit too far... Even for Adolf Kim Jon Osama bin Bundy type. 9/11 CIA conspiracy level shit.
"Special toxic substances" - wtf...

Will make a tinfoil hat when I'm back home from work.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Have to occam's razor here. Russians burning themselves, and eating special toxic substances to make Ukranians look bad?.. Or angry Ukranians throw molo's to force Russians out of the building?

Now i am not saying it's not a provocation, since i have no idea, but it sounds crazy. God help Ukraine!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 07, 2014, 12:07:04 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on May 07, 2014, 10:42:53 am


I just don't like Russia or its history and politics.

Didn't like Tsar Russian history. Didn't like Lenin. Didn't like Stalin. Don't like vodka fetish. Don't like kremlin. Don't like ballet. Don't like kalinka. Don't like Soviet Union. Don't like Bolsheviks. Don't like communist history of Russia.  And i don't like Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 07, 2014, 12:40:47 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 10:29:12 am
What I can say for sure is that obviously pro-Russians just entrapped their own people.

Re-read twice, still not sure if trolling or just brainwashed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on May 07, 2014, 12:42:47 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 07, 2014, 12:40:47 pm
Re-read twice, still not sure if trolling or just brainwashed.

lol!

Stfu butan, you`re a retard/idiot/moron who supports russian fascistonazees.

You`re dumb, and only people who support Ukraine are smart, its obvious that Putin himself strangled that pregnant wife
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 07, 2014, 12:47:34 pm
The worst part of all this is that its not that hard to understand and acknowledge that there is some ukrainians that could and have done this.

Dave shouldnt feel guilty because they share the same nationality, and should be able to tell them for what they are : violent extremists.
Probably the same kind of people that were at Maidan bearing the brunt of the unshackled action that cost many people their lives :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 07, 2014, 01:11:20 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 07, 2014, 12:47:34 pm
The worst part of all this is that its not that hard to understand and acknowledge that there is some ukrainians that could and have done this.

Dave shouldnt feel guilty because they share the same nationality, and should be able to tell them for what they are : violent extremists.
Probably the same kind of people that were at Maidan bearing the brunt of the unshackled action that cost many people their lives :rolleyes:

Even if the bandera natzee are responsible, it's still not a reason to wholesale euromaydan as a fascist coup.

For the same reason, the unrest in the eastern regions is not a proportional response to the actual events in Kiev. It's a proportional response to a fascist coup, which is what the Russian-speaking media that the easterners are watching is describing. Remember Crimea ? I would also chose Russia rather than Nazi Ukraine, even if I had no love for Russia.

Besides, those Right Sector boy scouts are not any worse than Jobbik or Golden Dawn. Every criminologist will tell you that opportunity is the most important component.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 07, 2014, 01:12:25 pm
Well, Dave is Ukrainian and is in Ukraine atm so it's perfectly understandable that he doesn't believe anything Russian side says or do. It's easy to pick sides in front of a monitor miles away from actual conflict which pretty much doesn't concern you in the slightest bit (yet). When you're living in an area affected by civil war or it is close to happening you need to act accordingly. All logic goes out of the window, only opinion allowed are: are you for us or for them? Do you know what happens to Ukrainian who tries to help his "pro-russian" buddy (not real protester, just someone who has some russian relatives) when they meet Right Sector gang? They both end up dead, first labeled as traitor of his own nation...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 07, 2014, 01:15:29 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 11:18:11 am
But how do you know who is who? You can't even distinguish where is pro-russian/pro-ukrainian. Same shit goes for Butan. How could your info have any value then?  :lol:
Who cares who is who if they all Ukrainians and kill each other just for different views on the future of the country?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 07, 2014, 01:20:34 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 07, 2014, 01:11:20 pm
Even if the bandera natzee are responsible, it's still not a reason to wholesale euromaydan as a fascist coup.

Who did? Not me. Because I dont have this opinion.



Quote from: Kafein on May 07, 2014, 01:11:20 pm
For the same reason, the unrest in the eastern regions is not a proportional response to the actual events in Kiev. It's a proportional response to a fascist coup, which is what the Russian-speaking media that the easterners are watching is describing. Remember Crimea ? I would also chose Russia rather than Nazi Ukraine, even if I had no love for Russia.

And Maidan was a proportional response to choosing a Russian commercial agreement instead of a European one?...

Your statement lack profound background checks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2014, 01:31:24 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 07, 2014, 01:20:34 pm
Who did? Not me. Because I dont have this opinion.
Panos did it :)

Quote from: Butan on May 07, 2014, 01:20:34 pm
And Maidan was a proportional response to choosing a Russian commercial agreement instead of a European one?...
<...>
Yes it was. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 07, 2014, 01:51:45 pm
Panos and I doesnt share much opinions except prejudice on how badly the anti-UKR/EU informations are shunned  :) 



What I meant with Maidan comparison was that the personal opinion of whether you think such unrest is justified or not, has actually 0 influence on if it will rage on or dies off.

We are mere spectators, like Leshma rightly said.
I would concede our words have some impacts, and as Segd said the information war is one of the tool to further the interest of one party over the other, so maybe what we are saying here have an influence, but a very weak one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2014, 03:01:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 07, 2014, 01:51:45 pm
Panos and I doesnt share much opinions except prejudice on how badly the anti-UKR/EU informations are shunned  :) 



What I meant with Maidan comparison was that the personal opinion of whether you think such unrest is justified or not, has actually 0 influence on if it will rage on or dies off.

We are mere spectators, like Leshma rightly said.
I would concede our words have some impacts, and as Segd said the information war is one of the tool to further the interest of one party over the other, so maybe what we are saying here have an influence, but a very weak one.
THIS is where either your ignorance or a semi-conscious choice to be a sheep comes out. If it were as you say, if all you could do is watch and post on forums - then yes, you would be right. But its simply not the case. When people are fed up enough - they start changing things. You can (and I sincerely believe you will) find a million+ reasons to avoid even trying to do a damn thing or you can make up your mind based on the info you have and act upon it. Join a friggin protest in front of russian embassy, call BS on your politicians who are willing to sell russians modern warships, there is a BUNCH of things you can do, IF YOU CHOOSE TO. And yes - propaganda is good at tricking people, but no - you don't have to accept it.

On the other hand... fuck it, what am I writing here. If one is willing to give the same weight of credibility to putlers media as to 90% of remaining worlds media... IMO you need help, some professional help preferably. I just cant be more polite about this, sorry  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 03:09:22 pm
Ok. I'll explain it. First of all: I've said it like 100 times here in the thread that I'm ethnically Russian. I have Russian name, Russian surname, my mother had Russian surname as well.

Second: about pro-Russian protesters entrapping their people. I meant what I said. When an aggressive part of pro-Russian protesters simply ran away and vanished in the centre of the city they called to the camp (which is like 5km away from the place of the initial clash). One of camp leaders told pro-Russians in the camp to take that building nearby, barricade all doors/floors and get ready to siege. Smarter people didn't listen and just walked away. That explains why there were not that many people as usually in the camp. Camp was completely abandoned, they even left some Molotov cocktails/shields and etc. So tell me now how isn't it "entrapping" when they give such orders to their men? What was the purpose of taking that building? Once pro-Ukrainians came, pro-Russians were already waiting for them on the roof of that building with cocktails. Also if anyone was in Odessa and saw that building then he would understand that it's impossible to die there because of Molotov cocktails. That is a large separate multi-level building. I don't even try to find any excuses to actions of those who were beating saved people to death (yes, there were such bastards, there is nothing to hide, they try to excuse themselves with a reason that their friends got killed by guns of pro-Russians that day), there were also people who were actually saving them.

About toxic substances. It's an official announcement of SBU. These are not mine words and I hate conspiracy shit. But in this particular case I tend to believe as corpses really looked strange (completely burnt heads with untouched clothes) and most of dead people there died because of "gas intoxication", that's an official conclusion of coroners from Odessa.

To sum up: there are always bastards and regular people on both sides. I've never said that everyone who supports Russia is a terrorist or everyone who supports Ukraine is a saint angel. There're borders everywhere, once you take a gun and shoot - you're a terrorist, once you beat someone for being Russian - you're a nаzi. What's difficult about it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on May 07, 2014, 03:19:34 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 03:09:22 pm
To sum up: there are always bastards and regular people on both sides. I've never said that everyone who supports Russia is a terrorist or everyone who supports Ukraine is a saint angel. There're borders everywhere, once you take a gun and shoot - you're a terrorist, once you beat someone for being Russian - you're a nаzi. What's difficult about it?

+1

Personally, I am completely satisfied with this.
I was afraid that you lost your marbles a little, with all the crazy stuff going on around :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 07, 2014, 03:38:30 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 07, 2014, 03:01:55 pm
(click to show/hide)

Forgive me, I though seeing your second last post that you were mind-ready to have a serene discussion. I will stop to attempt any with you until you show some more serious signs.






Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 03:09:22 pm
Second: about pro-Russian protesters entrapping their people. I meant what I said. When an aggressive part of pro-Russian protesters simply ran away and vanished in the centre of the city they called to the camp (which is like 5km away from the place of the initial clash). One of camp leaders told pro-Russians in the camp to take that building nearby, barricade all doors/floors and get ready to siege. Smarter people didn't listen and just walked away. That explains why there were not that many people as usually in the camp. Camp was completely abandoned, they even left some Molotov cocktails/shields and etc. So tell me now how isn't it "entrapping" when they give such orders to their men? What was the purpose of taking that building? Once pro-Ukrainians came, pro-Russians were already waiting for them on the roof of that building with cocktails. Also if anyone was in Odessa and saw that building then he would understand that it's impossible to die there because of Molotov cocktails. That is a large separate multi-level building. I don't even try to find any excuses to actions of those who were beating saved people to death (yes, there were such bastards, there is nothing to hide, they try to excuse themselves with a reason that their friends got killed by guns of pro-Russians that day), there were also people who were actually saving them.

Its always vastly superior to your first summary, but I still dont see the connexion between going inside a building and wishing those that does to die?
Surely the "tactical" choice of preparing for something in that building can be labelled "not smart" in retrospective, but thats just how it turned out, I dont think its the best argument you can think of right now.

Are you still pushing for a version where shadowy leaders had the objective to die as martyrs and convince unwilling people to follow them in death too, all for the sake of putting bad press on pro-Kiev?




Quote
About toxic substances. It's an official announcement of SBU. These are not mine words and I hate conspiracy shit. But in this particular case I tend to believe as corpses really looked strange (completely burnt heads with untouched clothes) and most of dead people there died because of "gas intoxication", that's an official conclusion of coroners from Odessa.

I'm not going to surprise you if I tell you that expertises from SBU and UKR coroners arent going to convince anyone?  :)
Surely we will have more and more details on that horrible event in the next days, and bits of information coming from UKR/RUS controlled media will be interesting to hear, I'm not going to proclaim that someone did this, someone did that, because we just doesnt know yet.

Whats undebatable is that Ukrainians killed each other, and most of the dying was on the pro-RUS side, which should lead you to understand that those that are pro-RUS are legitimely angry, and should put the pro-UKR to shame and convince the people in the middle that all the violence doesnt come from the big bad evil invaders disguised as ukrainians  :wink:



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 07, 2014, 05:48:36 pm

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 24, 2014, 05:17:44 pm
These people with Russian and Soviet flags don't deserve any better treatment
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 03:09:22 pm
once you beat someone for being Russian - you're a nаzi.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 07, 2014, 05:56:16 pm
Going around with Russian and/or Soviet flags in a different country in a provocative manner is not the same as being Russian.

Try again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 07, 2014, 05:59:46 pm
About conspiracy theory that dudes who attacked pro-ukrainians were only provocateurs, not real pro-russians.
Dude in the center:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Same dude later(book spoilers):
(click to show/hide)

(c)Private investigator Vovka
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 06:16:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 07, 2014, 03:38:30 pm
Its always vastly superior to your first summary, but I still dont see the connexion between going inside a building and wishing those that does to die?
Surely the "tactical" choice of preparing for something in that building can be labelled "not smart" in retrospective, but thats just how it turned out, I dont think its the best argument you can think of right now.
Are you still pushing for a version where shadowy leaders had the objective to die as martyrs and convince unwilling people to follow them in death too, all for the sake of putting bad press on pro-Kiev?

I'm not pushing this version. The thing is that actual leaders or people who controlled the camp didn't go inside the building. Also police found an open box with filters for gas masks in one of the shelters. This is suspicious at least.

Edit: Look at the picture that got posted by Segd. That's just one of the examples of injuries that I was talking. Look, his face is completely burnt while his clothes aren't even touched.

Quote from: Porthos on May 07, 2014, 05:48:36 pm
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Even though you took a part of the sentence out of the context, still a poor attempt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 06:19:44 pm
I failed and posted 2nd message instead of edit  :oops: :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 07, 2014, 06:37:50 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 07, 2014, 05:56:16 pm
Going around with Russian and/or Soviet flags in a different country in a provocative manner is not the same as being Russian.
Provocative manner? Did you watch the video? Well, let me guess, riding with Russian flag causes the natural reaction in the form of the hammer thrown at you. Or, most likely, they were carrying ammunition or drugs in their cars, and that's why they were attacked. Moreover, these people who attacked that car, they are certainly the legitimate police, and their actions perfectly correspond to the law of Ukraine. So yeah, you're totally right. Sorry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 07, 2014, 06:39:52 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 06:49:47 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 07, 2014, 06:39:52 pm

That's your type Tovi. 116 killed, Right Sector came in and killed peaceful women with children. Says the guy who can't make a sentence without 10 "bad words", if he got censored half of this video would be "beep-beeeeep Right Sector killed women beep-beeeeeep and children beep". Good that there is no Right Sector in Odessa, it may only exist on paper. What a mythical organization.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 07, 2014, 07:06:59 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 07, 2014, 06:37:50 pm
Provocative manner? Did you watch the video? Well, let me guess, riding with Russian flag causes the natural reaction in the form of the hammer thrown at you. Or, most likely, they were carrying ammunition or drugs in their cars, and that's why they were attacked. Moreover, these people who attacked that car, they are certainly the legitimate police, and their actions perfectly correspond to the law of Ukraine. So yeah, you're totally right. Sorry.

Was this forced loopstart really necessary? From months ago?

Try waving a communist flag and parade in post-soviet bloc countries. We'll see how many people will like that and give a pat to your back. Especially in this situation where ruskies are clearly creating tension with Crimea, if we go back in time to march, going in there with USSR themed stuff is foolishly provocative.

Anyway you kind of twisted that post, not acceptable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 07, 2014, 08:44:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 06:49:47 pm
That's your type Tovi. 116 killed, Right Sector came in and killed peaceful women with children. Says the guy who can't make a sentence without 10 "bad words", if he got censored half of this video would be "beep-beeeeep Right Sector killed women beep-beeeeeep and children beep". Good that there is no Right Sector in Odessa, it may only exist on paper. What a mythical organization.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Right Sector doesn't exist ? They can't move from town to town ? This guy was almost killed and all you can say is "he can't make a sentence without 10 bad words"...
What is your opinion about Pravy Sektor exactly ?

An european deputy (from Latvia I think) ask to class Pravy Sektor as Terrorist Organisation. At least, some europeans have there heads on their shoulders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 07, 2014, 09:04:53 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 06:16:45 pm
I'm not pushing this version. The thing is that actual leaders or people who controlled the camp didn't go inside the building. Also police found an open box with filters for gas masks in one of the shelters. This is suspicious at least.

Edit: Look at the picture that got posted by Segd. That's just one of the examples of injuries that I was talking. Look, his face is completely burnt while his clothes aren't even touched.

True, very suspicious, and to date I still didnt hear a version that was backed with more arguments than the average illuminati cases  :P  thats why I dont like when people just say "this happened".

I rly though you were having an opinion on that matter, sorry if I misread  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2014, 10:35:42 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 07, 2014, 05:59:46 pm
About conspiracy theory that dudes who attacked pro-ukrainians were only provocateurs, not real pro-russians.
Dude in the center:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Same dude later(book spoilers):
(click to show/hide)

(c)Private investigator Vovka
And where is the bullet-proof vest? Russian TV said that it maybe clothes changed dead man, because it was made before, I dont know what the real truth. Just some questions: why some people had red marks on their arms, this red marks had some policemen, some pro-russians and some pro-ukranians? Why police didn't do nothing? Why Andrej Parubiy arrived to Odessa one day before? And why snipers on maidan who killed 100 people were shooting from the building which Andrej Parubiy controlled?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 07, 2014, 10:50:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2014, 10:35:42 pm
And where is the bullet-proof vest?
Quote from: Segd on May 07, 2014, 05:59:46 pm
04:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv9_z6Cdf3g
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2014, 11:14:42 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 07, 2014, 10:50:10 pm

Ok maybe this man is really the same. I think he really didn't know what will happen next. As seemed only his head was burned(
Other questions please? And how could escape from arrest the deputy chief of the Odessa militia and left Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 08, 2014, 12:48:24 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2014, 06:49:47 pm
Good that there is no Right Sector in Odessa, it may only exist on paper. What a mythical organization.

How come you know that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 03:07:28 am
Quote from: Christo on May 07, 2014, 07:06:59 pm
Try waving a communist flag and parade in post-soviet bloc countries. We'll see how many people will like that and give a pat to your back. Especially in this situation where ruskies are clearly creating tension with Crimea, if we go back in time to march, going in there with USSR themed stuff is foolishly provocative.
Okay. Now I will take a note. Going around with soviet flag in post-soviet countries causes the hammer thrown at your face with high probability. And also people in these countries believe it's normal to attack someone in this way. I just didn't know it until now. Thanx.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 08, 2014, 03:19:48 am
It's not normal but it happens. Radical nationalism is on the rise in Europe these days. Two days ago, Jobbik members nearly lynched representative of hungarian minority in Vojvodina (Serbia) in Budapest during the day, calling him a traitor. Just like Kosovo, Vojvodina is another autonomous part of Serbia. Recently, due to poor state whole country is in, certain people started to raise a question of independence. That has been put on hold for now. But extremists probably saw a chance that Vojvodina could split from Serbia and join Hungary in the future and they blame guy they attacked for not pushing that harder.

Sadly, when government becomes weak is the time for extremists and various paramilitary groups to flourish. That is why changing the government by violent means rarely yields good results for the country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 06:05:39 am
Other questions: How could Avakov let the deputy chief of the Odessa militia to escape from jail? And why he really knows that this man left the country. Can Avakov control something? Or maybe he helped to escape? Will see, how fast they will catch this man? And will they?
Other question: what do you think is it normal to use army on the south-east of Ukraine. There already were killed about 60 Ukranians by army and were took about 400 people to jail, all ukranians. And this is done by those authorities which made the armed revolution in the country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 08:31:52 am
Quote from: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 03:07:28 am
Okay. Now I will take a note. Going around with soviet flag in post-soviet countries causes the hammer thrown at your face with high probability. And also people in these countries believe it's normal to attack someone in this way. I just didn't know it until now. Thanx.
(click to show/hide)

PTX never said it's normal or commendable. PTX said it's to be expected.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 08:33:46 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 06:05:39 am
Other questions: How could Avakov let the deputy chief of the Odessa militia to escape from jail? And why he really knows that this man left the country. Can Avakov control something? Or maybe he helped to escape? Will see, how fast they will catch this man? And will they?
Other question: what do you think is it normal to use army on the south-east of Ukraine. There already were killed about 60 Ukranians by army and were took about 400 people to jail, all ukranians. And this is done by those authorities which made the armed revolution in the country.
Corrupt guy bribing his way out of a country where at least SOME part of populace would support him if he gave the right tale ala "Right sector Kiev natzcszi gvnmnt out to get me bla bla halp".... I don't see much problem with escaping :)

As to using armed forces in easter ukraine - do YOU have a serious idea how to handle armed separatists who are doing what they want (including, but prob. not limited to kidnapping, torture, murder, extortion, robberies)? IMO - current Ukraine government response is QUITE adequate, and if judged by russian standards - even mild (see russian response to refusal to give up by chechens in Grozno for a reference handling of separatists the putlers way).

Questions to you: do you find sending diversionary special forces to neighboring country and then annexing part of that country a friendly gesture? :rolleyes:

Also - relevant commercial:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 08, 2014, 09:54:05 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 08:33:46 am
...
Also - relevant commercial:

Hmm, i remember a bit longer version and the message was "dont skip the school and learn for your life", but i do not see the connexion here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 08, 2014, 10:17:01 am
Quote from: Mala on May 08, 2014, 09:54:05 am
Hmm, i remember a bit longer version and the message was "dont skip the school and learn for your life", but i do not see the connexion here.

Ruskies twisting it out of context to fit theirs.

Not surprised at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 08, 2014, 10:18:27 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2014, 11:14:42 pm
Ok maybe this man is really the same. I think he really didn't know what will happen next. As seemed only his head was burned(
Other questions please?
I don't know why cops & pro-russians had same red tape. I didn't give it to them.  :lol: [conspiracy]Ask Putin, he should know[/conspiracy]
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on May 08, 2014, 10:42:32 am
Quote from: Christo on May 08, 2014, 10:17:01 am
Ruskies twisting it out of context to fit theirs.

Not surprised at all.
:D video made by west ukrainians
but who cares, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 08, 2014, 10:47:20 am
rukrainians

It's the same damn hieroglyph system man, One does not simply tell the difference.  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 10:48:06 am
Quote from: Yarl on May 08, 2014, 10:42:32 am
:D video made by west ukrainians
but who cares, right?
I think the more moderate and reasonable russians would agree with the message too. But that is just me  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 10:58:34 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 08:33:46 am
Corrupt guy bribing his way out of a country where at least SOME part of populace would support him if he gave the right tale ala "Right sector Kiev natzcszi gvnmnt out to get me bla bla halp".... I don't see much problem with escaping :)
Where is the answer? no answer. keep trolling.

Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 08:33:46 am
As to using armed forces in easter ukraine - do YOU have a serious idea how to handle armed separatists who are doing what they want (including, but prob. not limited to kidnapping, torture, murder, extortion, robberies)? IMO - current Ukraine government response is QUITE adequate, and if judged by russian standards - even mild (see russian response to refusal to give up by chechens in Grozno for a reference handling of separatists the putlers way).

You think armed separatists must be handled? There wasn't kidnapping in the East, in Kiev was. there wasnt torture, murder, extortion, robberies in the East, in Kiev were, About Chechnya seems you dont know nothing about situation now, so keep it in your mind please. I have relatives in lugansk, Kiev, and Donetsk, I call them and I know what they think.
Watch how OSCE talk with terrorists, separatists
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 08:33:46 am
Questions to you: do you find sending diversionary special forces to neighboring country and then annexing part of that country a friendly gesture? :rolleyes:
lol man what a great propaganda, where do you see special forces? West talking about russian special forces in Ukraine for 2 monthes but cant prove it anyhow.

Quote from: Segd on May 08, 2014, 10:18:27 am
I don't know why cops & pro-russians had same red tape. I didn't give it to them.  :lol: [conspiracy]Ask Putin, he should know[/conspiracy]
Lol, ofcource Putin knows everything 8-) Why pro-europe ukranians also had red tape? Why Avakov let escape people who were killing ukranians? Because Putin made it! When I listen you, it becomes that Putin fights against Putin!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 11:20:25 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 10:58:34 am
Where is the answer? no answer. keep trolling.
There is no answer to satisfy you here. Its called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 10:58:34 am
You think armed separatists must be handled? There wasn't kidnapping in the East, in Kiev was. there wasnt torture, murder, extortion, robberies in the East, in Kiev were, About Chechnya seems you dont know nothing about situation now, so keep it in your mind please. I have relatives in lugansk, Kiev, and Donetsk, I call them and I know what they think.
Watch how OSCE talk with terrorists, separatists
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
I am... dumbfounded... how do you think armed gangs "demanting independence" should be treated? I know how they WERE treated in russia 10 years ago. That was not reasonable. And I think they HAVE to be treated and the things current ukraine government is doing are reasonable. You want to see reasonable independence handing? Look at how Scotland are working towards their independence. This "rob armories, blockade towns, cause general BS" is not reasonable.

I beg to disagree with he whole 3rd sentence. CBA to find exact posts of each item, but they are in this thread.

Also - I do not understand, what those videos are supposed to prove. Care to elaborate?

Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 10:58:34 am
lol man what a great propaganda, where do you see special forces? West talking about russian special forces in Ukraine for 2 monthes but cant prove it anyhow.
Like... amm... putler admitting to russian special forces operating in Crimea is not enough to prove russias involvement in destabilization of Ukraine? You are that sure of your sources? And after that - someone is supposed to believe russia is not working in eastern crimea? For real?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 11:36:33 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 11:20:25 am
I am... dumbfounded... how do you think armed gangs "demanting independence" should be treated? I know how they WERE treated in russia 10 years ago. That was not reasonable. And I think they HAVE to be treated and the things current ukraine government is doing are reasonable. You want to see reasonable independence handing? Look at how Scotland are working towards their independence. This "rob armories, blockade towns, cause general BS" is not reasonable.

I beg to disagree with he whole 3rd sentence. CBA to find exact posts of each item, but they are in this thread.

Also - I do not understand, what those videos are supposed to prove. Care to elaborate?
Like... amm... putler admitting to russian special forces operating in Crimea is not enough to prove russias involvement in destabilization of Ukraine? You are that sure of your sources? And after that - someone is supposed to believe russia is not working in eastern crimea? For real?
First of all you are lack of information, they don't want independence like Scotland, and even they wanted to do it, government doesnt let it, they know that 90% of population on the east agree with "separatists". East asked many times to make a dialogue but Kiev always rejected dialogue. Deputy Oleg Tsarev asked many times to sit to the table, it's rejected and now Verkhovna Rada deprives him of inviolability. Verkhovna Rada also deleted сommunist party from disscusions and party of regions also. So where is the democracy?

About Crimea, please read contracts between Ukraine and Russia, and you will see that Russia can hold 25000 troops in it, so everything within the law.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 11:47:08 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 08:31:52 am
PTX never said it's normal or commendable. PTX said it's to be expected.
Not really. What i said is, driving a column of cars, with large Russian and Soviet flags attached to them, into a city, during a crisis such as in Ukraine right now, is a clear provocation. Saying otherwise is blatantly ignorant. Also, iirc, there was another video of the same event, taken by a pedestrian nearby, that showed a very different perspective.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 11:47:35 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 11:36:33 am
First of all you are lack of information, they don't want independence like Scotland, and even they wanted to do it, government doesnt let it, they know that 90% of population on the east agree with "separatists". East asked many times to make a dialogue but Kiev always rejected dialogue. Deputy Oleg Tsarev asked many times to sit to the table, it's rejected and now Verkhovna Rada deprives him of inviolability. Verkhovna Rada also deleted сommunist party from disscusions and party of regions also. So where is the democracy?

About Crimea, please read contracts between Ukraine and Russia, and you will see that Russia can hold 25000 troops in it, so everything within the law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Like hell you know what 90% of population there wants. Only in pulters oppinion 123% of citizens in sevastopol can vote and 146% voting for putler is ok. Either cite your sources or skip using the numbers in this funny way :) For all I care - there is ~1k of armed punks who are causing mayhem in eastern ukraine. Since they hide in the populace, part of which support them, no denying here, arresting and handling them is difficult and bloody. They still have to be handled. Armed fighting is NOT reasonable. Civil dissobedience is. And yes - there is a difference.

As to agreements regarding russian army in Crimea - I'm pretty sure they were strictly bound to stay in the BASE they rented and ANY additional forces had to be approved by Ukraine first... Tell me, which of these two happened  as you put it "within the law"? :rolleyes: I think even putlers propaganda machine dropped pushing of this idea... or didn't it?

You like answered questions, don't you? Please, see below.

how do you think armed gangs "demanting independence" should be treated?

I do not understand, what those videos are supposed to prove. Care to elaborate?

putler admitting to russian special forces operating in Crimea is not enough to prove russias involvement in destabilization of Ukraine? You are that sure of your sources? And after that - someone is supposed to believe russia is not working in eastern crimea? For real?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 12:47:31 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 11:47:08 am
Not really. What i said is, driving a column of cars, with large Russian and Soviet flags attached to them, into a city, during a crisis such as in Ukraine right now, is a clear provocation. Saying otherwise is blatantly ignorant. Also, iirc, there was another video of the same event, taken by a pedestrian nearby, that showed a very different perspective.

So I was actually right, you, guys, indeed trying to convince me for real, that attacking people with soviet flag is normal and commendable. Yep, let me finally agree with you - driving a column of cars with Russian flags is really horrifying provocation which must be solved with a hammer thrown in their face. Because what is the best reaction to provocation? Well, let me tell you. Some jerk on the street shows you the middle finger - PROVOCATION - you must chase him and then broke all his bones. Some punk girls singing a bullshit in the church - PROVOCATION - you must put them in prison for years or better just burn them. Some pro-russian activists driving around with their flags - PROVOCATION - throw a hammer in the face. I agree. Tolerance is for fairies. Let's be hard, we're at the border of the war for god's sake, so let's actually kill each other just for wearing the wrong flags already. Maybe we will prevent the war with such actions. Gosh, wtf... Ah, forget, I'm probably a blatantly ignorant guy with a low IQ, so don't waste your valuable time to explain to me such obvious thing like this. Anyways, since I realized your wisdom, so tell me guys, when we shall hunt some provocateur twags, I want to participate in the work of saving peace on earth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 12:56:56 pm
What the fuck did you write that for? Try watching the video yourself, buddy. And then try going back to where it was posted and find the other video of same event. ACTUALLY WATCH IT AND THINK. Then come back and we can talk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 01:06:51 pm
Its provocative, obviously, but only stupid people will take the bait and actually do physical harm, thats his point since forever PTX.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 01:09:12 pm
God fucking damnit, we've been over those 2 videos already, go back and re-watch and re-read, must i really repeat everything about them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 01:22:44 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 12:56:56 pm
What the fuck did you write that for? Try watching the video yourself, buddy. And then try going back to where it was posted and find the other video of same event. ACTUALLY WATCH IT AND THINK. Then come back and we can talk.
This? Okay, i did. Painful to watch, indeed. Those russian scums with their terrible provocative engine noise :( So what we can talk about now? You gonna tell me finally when the next hunting event will happen or what? I'm so angry right now, I want to smash them all to a death due to the fact that they came to Ukraine with these terrible provocative red rags. Nightmare! ACTWUALLEY!!1!1
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 01:27:34 pm
Did you watch the video? Tell me, what did they do? I'm not seeing anyone throwing hammers in anyone's face? Maybe i'm just blind. All i see is people stopping a column driving into a city with foreign flags and taking down the flags. If you fail to understand the reasoning behind that column of cars, then i feel sorry for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 01:36:08 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 11:47:35 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Like hell you know what 90% of population there wants. Only in pulters oppinion 123% of citizens in sevastopol can vote and 146% voting for putler is ok. Either cite your sources or skip using the numbers in this funny way :) For all I care - there is ~1k of armed punks who are causing mayhem in eastern ukraine. Since they hide in the populace, part of which support them, no denying here, arresting and handling them is difficult and bloody. They still have to be handled. Armed fighting is NOT reasonable. Civil dissobedience is. And yes - there is a difference.

As to agreements regarding russian army in Crimea - I'm pretty sure they were strictly bound to stay in the BASE they rented and ANY additional forces had to be approved by Ukraine first... Tell me, which of these two happened  as you put it "within the law"? :rolleyes: I think even putlers propaganda machine dropped pushing of this idea... or didn't it?

You like answered questions, don't you? Please, see below.

how do you think armed gangs "demanting independence" should be treated?

I do not understand, what those videos are supposed to prove. Care to elaborate?

putler admitting to russian special forces operating in Crimea is not enough to prove russias involvement in destabilization of Ukraine? You are that sure of your sources? And after that - someone is supposed to believe russia is not working in eastern crimea? For real?

You will see later the truth and eat your tie) 11 of may will be referendum and you will see what part of population support them. There is 9 millions russian people living in Ukraine, you cant do nothing with this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 01:47:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 01:36:08 pm
You will see later the truth and eat your tie) 11 of may will be referendum and you will see what part of population support them. There is 9 millions russian people living in Ukraine, you cant do nothing with this
There is this saying in Belorussia and Russia: its not important who votes how, its important how the votes are counted. If you think that these "referendums" will be or the previous  one in Crimea waslegit and up to democratic standards - you obviously live in russia, because "only in russia" (c). :rolleyes:

And again - red herring. Because most likely RT does not provide all the needed info, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 01:51:11 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 01:47:47 pm
There is this saying in Belorussia and Russia: its not important who votes how, its important how the votes are counted. If you think that these "referendums" will be or the previous  one in Crimea waslegit and up to democratic standards - you obviously live in russia, because "only in russia" (c). :rolleyes:

And again - red herring. Because most likely RT does not provide all the needed info, right?
And then say what is democratic referendum in your opinion? And was democratic an armed revolution in Kiev?
And what info? I dont watch RT. Half of my relatives live in Ukraine. And I know what propaganda in Ukraine and what propoganda in Russia, and I can say in Ukraine is more stupid
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 02:06:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 01:47:47 pm
There is this saying in Belorussia and Russia: its not important who votes how, its important how the votes are counted. If you think that these "referendums" will be or the previous  one in Crimea waslegit and up to democratic standards - you obviously live in russia, because "only in russia" (c). :rolleyes:

And again - red herring. Because most likely RT does not provide all the needed info, right?

99% of the time a independance is followed or started by a referendum.

99% of the time, if the previous state doesnt release its control by itself, they dont recognise the independance as legitimate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 02:09:12 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 01:27:34 pm
Did you watch the video? Tell me, what did they do? I'm not seeing anyone throwing hammers in anyone's face? Maybe i'm just blind. All i see is people stopping a column driving into a city with foreign flags and taking down the flags. If you fail to understand the reasoning behind that column of cars, then i feel sorry for you.
Yesh, I watched it once again and now I can clearly tell you what was happening there. Ukrainian volunteers just had cheerfully met the evil Russkie skinheaded drunkards (who were driving their awful polluting cars) with the bread and salt. Ukrainians wanted to give them flowers and kiss them brotherly, and also take their flags to carry it to a dry cleaning service, probably. But suddenly Russian nаzies tried to drive through the friendly attitude Ukrainian citizens. And in the end the gigantic rainbow appears all over the screen. That's it. And about that hammer from the other video, I just realized - it's an obvious montage. Usual FSB's antics. So you're not blind of course. And also thanks for your sincere apologies, but yet, please, don't be so cruel to me, dear wise man. Just give me directly the proper 'reasoning' about that frightening column of cars. Tell me the truth. Give me at least the slightest hint. Please? :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 08, 2014, 02:14:56 pm
Hot news: Putin asks power-mongers in East Ukraine to delay the vote to "give peace a chance".

In other news: saw a cartoon in my local newspaper today. Uncle Sam and Russian Bear standing in front of each other. Uncle Sam says "I am thinking about deploying and stationing troops along the Russian border of my NATO states." Russian Bear answers "Funny. I was thinking the exact same thing." ))))))

Cold War 2.0 incoming?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 08, 2014, 02:19:32 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 02:09:12 pm
Tell me the truth. Give me at least the slightest hint. Please? :(
Faction: Retards
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 08, 2014, 02:20:14 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 03:07:28 am
Okay. Now I will take a note. Going around with soviet flag in post-soviet countries causes the hammer thrown at your face with high probability. And also people in these countries believe it's normal to attack someone in this way. I just didn't know it until now. Thanx.
(click to show/hide)

No, not necessarily a hammer at your face, but many people would tell you that you should be ashamed of yourself.

I didn't say that attacking somebody with a soviet flag is commendable. Foolishly provocative is what I said. Again, don't manipulate.

PS: Anyway what's up with digging up months old stuff again? Did you guys run out of ideas? There's plenty of things to talk about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 08, 2014, 02:27:41 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 03:07:28 am
Okay. Now I will take a note. Going around with soviet flag in post-soviet countries causes the hammer thrown at your face with high probability. And also people in these countries believe it's normal to attack someone in this way. I just didn't know it until now. Thanx.
(click to show/hide)
You're a fucking retard. Russians were invading Ukraine and those people drove around with USSR and Russian flags. That does not happen by accident. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 08, 2014, 02:32:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 08, 2014, 02:27:41 pm
You're a fucking retard. Russians were invading Ukraine and those people drove around with USSR and Russian flags. That does not happen by accident. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
The power of your arguments is overwhelming.
Quote from: Christo on May 08, 2014, 02:20:14 pm
PS: Anyway what's up with digging up months old stuff again? Did you guys run out of ideas? There's plenty of things to talk about.
Sorry, I just didn't read this topic back then. Anyways I had no intention to discuss about this shit, the only reason why I picked up dat vid is because it seems funny to me how the one person says that if you beat someone for being Russian - you're a nаzi. And in the same time he thinks that people with Russian and Soviet flags don't deserve any better treatment than a hammer thrown at their face. You may consider it's fine, but I'm not. That's all basically :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 02:33:37 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 08, 2014, 02:27:41 pm
You're a fucking retard. Russians were invading Ukraine and those people drove around with USSR and Russian flags. That does not happen by accident. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Xant total post count / retard use ratio = 0.98

No surprise here, it takes one to know one.


If you had took the time to read past the last pages you would maybe have seen that you're repeating word for word what someone said really recently; tl;dr: you're useless and obnoxious.
Go back where you came from, thanks.



Quote from: Christo on May 08, 2014, 02:20:14 pm
PS: Anyway what's up with digging up months old stuff again? Did you guys run out of ideas? There's plenty of things to talk about.


Cant agree more.
There must be some post-odessa events too since then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 08, 2014, 02:51:19 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 08, 2014, 02:33:37 pm
Xant total post count / retard use ratio = 0.98
That's because the total replies to retards ratio in this thread = 0.98.

This reply increases the ratio to 0.99.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 02:57:34 pm
Terrorists in Ukraine :evil::
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 02:59:57 pm
Cant even copy paste the russian words into google translate if its on an image  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 03:03:21 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 08, 2014, 02:59:57 pm
Cant even copy paste the russian words into google translate if its on an image  :P
That's only names of the cities and in the middle is written "We - not titushki(young people used in political battles). We are people. We against the illegal power in Kiev"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 08, 2014, 03:18:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 03:03:21 pm
That's only names of the cities and in the middle is written "We - not titushki(young people used in political battles). We are people. We against the illegal power in Kiev"
What's their problem? Presidential Elections incoming. Or don't you believe in fair elections\referendums?

Moscow, Russian Federation:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 08, 2014, 03:40:57 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 08, 2014, 03:18:10 pm
What's their problem? Presidential Elections incoming. Or don't you believe in fair elections\referendums?

Moscow, Russian Federation:
(click to show/hide)

Oh he DOES believe in democratic voting, e.g. in Crimea, where 123% of citizens of Sevastopol cast their vote. He also believes in putlers elections, where 146% of voters casting their votes is considered proper  :rolleyes:

Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 01:51:11 pm
And then say what is democratic referendum in your opinion? And was democratic an armed revolution in Kiev?
And what info? I dont watch RT. Half of my relatives live in Ukraine. And I know what propaganda in Ukraine and what propoganda in Russia, and I can say in Ukraine is more stupid
Why should I bother answering, when you don't? :) You still 3 questions pending from http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg1002065/#msg1002065 :

how do you think armed gangs "demanting independence" should be treated?

I do not understand, what those videos are supposed to prove. Care to elaborate?

putler admitting to russian special forces operating in Crimea is not enough to prove russias involvement in destabilization of Ukraine? You are that sure of your sources? And after that - someone is supposed to believe russia is not working in eastern crimea? For real?

On the subject of And was democratic an armed revolution in Kiev? - the protests in maidan actually were an expression of democracy, where a sizable amount of people to expressed their disagreement with the course Yanukovich took. Until Yanukovich started the criminal crap he did and everything went down hill from there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 08, 2014, 04:19:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 08, 2014, 02:33:37 pm
Xant total post count / retard use ratio = 0.98
I wonder how this equation is supposed to work. :lol:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 06:00:29 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 08, 2014, 03:18:10 pm
What's their problem? Presidential Elections incoming. Or don't you believe in fair elections\referendums?

Moscow, Russian Federation:
(click to show/hide)

I believe, it's a pity that East didn't presented in presidential elections anyhow! Two deputy were beaten in Kiev and nobody got to jail, it's OK for Kiev now.
In Moscow according to Kiev idealogy Putin have to name this people on the photos terrorists and send army to kill them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 08, 2014, 06:11:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 06:00:29 pm
I believe, it's a pity that East didn't presented in presidential elections anyhow!
Their problem that they didn't find a good candidate. Although there are more than 10 candidates.
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 06:00:29 pm
Two deputy were beaten in Kiev and nobody got to jail, it's OK for Kiev now.
Minister of Defense stole few billions and nobody got to jail, it's OK for Moscow now.
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 06:00:29 pm
In Moscow according to Kiev idealogy Putin have to name this people on the photos terrorists and send army to kill them?
Were did you find on my pics Kalashnikovs, RPGs or at least molotovs? Are this ppl want independence for Moscow from Russia? Did they rob police stations & took control of some city? Nice logics you have  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 06:12:45 pm
Quote
I believe, it's a pity that East didn't presented in presidential elections anyhow!

Why? There is Tihipko and there is Dobkin. Of course they have no chances to win these elections, party of regions stained themselves with Yanukovich and people won't forget that soon, but is it a reason to start civil war?

Another thing, Poroshenko is from Odessa region, Tymoshenko is from Dnipropetrovsk, what do you mean by saying that east is not represented on elections?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 08, 2014, 06:22:07 pm
Quote from: serr on May 08, 2014, 06:12:45 pm
Another thing, Poroshenko is from Odessa region, Tymoshenko is from Dnipropetrovsk, what do you mean by saying that east is not represented on elections?
You mean that the next president would be from East? Damn, why West won't revolt?  :lol:


Next president of Ukraine:
___oshenko

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Tim, or Por, that is the question!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 06:25:55 pm
Well, actually now there is no doubt that Poroshenko will win, the question is will he do it in first round or there will be second round.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 08, 2014, 06:38:29 pm
btw
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/730688

Yulia Timoshenko, who is now running for Ukrainian president, has said that she was the only politician in Ukraine capable of conducting political reforms the country badly needs.
“I do not want to bear responsibility for the failure of the revolution any longer,” she said. “But if the country elects other president, and, as a matter of fact, I have only one rival now, I think we will have to venture the third round of revolution. Because otherwise I don’t see any chance for changes. I simply know all these people.”
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 06:49:49 pm
Yes, she said that. It's really good that she has no real support and she won't get any by such moves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 08, 2014, 07:14:04 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 08, 2014, 06:38:29 pm
btw
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/730688

Yulia Timoshenko, who is now running for Ukrainian president, has said that she was the only politician in Ukraine capable of conducting political reforms the country badly needs.
“I do not want to bear responsibility for the failure of the revolution any longer,” she said. “But if the country elects other president, and, as a matter of fact, I have only one rival now, I think we will have to venture the third round of revolution. Because otherwise I don’t see any chance for changes. I simply know all these people.”

Good that we all know who Tymoshenko is. And thanks to Poroshenko that she's not going to become a President.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 07:25:58 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 08, 2014, 06:11:06 pm
Their problem that they didn't find a good candidate. Although there are more than 10 candidates.Minister of Defense stole few billions and nobody got to jail, it's OK for Moscow now.Were did you find on my pics Kalashnikovs, RPGs or at least molotovs? Are this ppl want independence for Moscow from Russia? Did they rob police stations & took control of some city? Nice logics you have  :wink:
What is the minister of defence? Facts?
In the beggining in the East also weren't any Kalashnikovs, RPGs or at least molotovs, but it was on maidan, wasn't it? There is only one logic, if it is possible in Kiev, then why it is forbidden in the East. And I grieve that civilians are killed by ukranian army on the East.
Yes, I think Poroshenko will win, but Timoshenko will try to prevent it. Maybe Odessa is her doings.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 07:41:32 pm
Quote
In the beggining in the East also weren't any Kalashnikovs, RPGs or at least molotovs, but it was on maidan, wasn't it?
No, there were no Kalashnikovs and RPGs at all and there were no molotovs for first 1.5 months.

Quote
There is only one logic, if it is possible in Kiev, then why it is forbidden in the East.
Well, no. Violent protests, rebellions are always forbidden as they should be. And the fact that maidan had better reasons doesn't excuse violence that was there. And of course it doesn't excuse any further violence.

Still I don't understand these protests. Government basically accepted all demands except federalisation, which is not acceptable. What do they want? I don't really hear any arguments from that side apart from "evil ukrainian fascists".

Quote
And I grieve that civilians are killed by ukranian army on the East.
So, I take it, you don't grieve that ukrainian soldiers are killed by "civilians" there?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 07:52:59 pm
Quote from: serr on May 08, 2014, 07:41:32 pm
No, there were no Kalashnikovs and RPGs at all and there were no molotovs for first 1.5 months.
Well, no. Violent protests, rebellions are always forbidden as they should be. And the fact that maidan had better reasons doesn't excuse violence that was there. And of course it doesn't excuse any further violence.

Still I don't understand these protests. Government basically accepted all demands except federalisation, which is not acceptable. What do they want? I don't really hear any arguments from that side apart from "evil ukrainian fascists".
So, I take it, you don't grieve that ukrainian soldiers are killed by "civilians" there?
Main protest is to unarm right sector, Dnepro, national Guard and so on.
I grieve for those soldiers that was obliged to kill their brothers and died there too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 07:56:14 pm
Quote from: serr on May 08, 2014, 07:41:32 pm
Still I don't understand these protests. Government basically accepted all demands except federalisation, which is not acceptable. What do they want? I don't really hear any arguments from that side apart from "evil ukrainian fascists".

Just nitpicking, but same as Maidan, where Yanukovitch had basically accepted all demands in the last days of the protests, it didnt make the protest stop...

As long as people keep going out in the streets and doing random things, its not over; admitedly, it cannot be stopped until you accept to resign (and sometimes not even then), this is why I think its way too easy to just overthrow whole goverments these days. Its like the opposite of personality cult, as long as there is "that guy" or "that group" at power positions, it wont stop. Or until some really bad things happens.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 07:59:00 pm
Quote
Main protest is to unarm right sector, Dnepro, national Guard and so on.
Right sector is already partially unarmed, and it would get better over time. New government showed that they won't let them do what they want.
As for Dnepro and National Guard - why should they be unarmed? They are reformed internal forces, not some nationalistic fighters, they simply follow orders that military command gives them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 08:02:25 pm
Quote from: serr on May 08, 2014, 07:59:00 pm
Right sector is already partially unarmed, and it would get better over time. New government showed that they won't let them do what they want.
As for Dnepro and National Guard - why should they be unarmed? They are reformed internal forces, not some nationalistic fighters, they simply follow orders that military command gives them.
Really? How right sector is unarmed? Because I don't have information about it. Can you give some links please
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 08, 2014, 08:09:53 pm

lol at comment section

"AK47, RPG, et al. are NOT "heavy weapons". These are called "light arms" in the common vernacular, standard infantry stuff. Why do most of your reporters seem like meow men who have never even held a gun before? Perhaps because this one is from a country were they have become illegal? Or perhaps they are "actors" working for the CIA to foment terror and anxiety in the heart of the viewer? I do not personally take a side in this bullshit geopolitical theater, but why does it seem that VICE is firmly on the side that is backed by the private western central bankers? Just wondering."

They are so mad at this. It's not like a military academy is about to get attacked and looted or something.

HURR DURR AK74 NOT 47 LOOK UP WIKI  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 08:10:24 pm
By unarmed I think he meant that they arent actively supplied in armement by the government  :P 
Of course since they are kind of nationalist rebels, they will always find ways to arms themselves and do some shit, at least to a point; that point being proportionate to how badly the government fight them and their influence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 08:10:45 pm
Quote
Just nitpicking, but same as Maidan, where Yanukovitch had basically accepted all demands in the last days of the protests, it didnt make the protest stop...

As long as people keep going out in the streets and doing random things, its not over; admitedly, it cannot be stopped until you accept to resign (and sometimes not even then), this is why I think its way too easy to just overthrow whole goverments these days. Its like the opposite of personality cult, as long as there is "that guy" or "that group" at power positions, it wont stop. Or until some really bad things happens.

Partially agree here. When Yanukovich accepted those demands it was too late, he crossed the line(even if he had nothing to do with those snipers). Probably it's too late now as well in Donetsk and Luhansk region, but government guaranteed protection for russian language(lol, like it needed any protection here), decentralisation of power, right to elect governors or whoever will replace them in hierarchy of power before protesters in the East started capturing weapons. Incident when police forces surrounded Right Sector in hotel in Kiev and made them disarm also took place before that.

So why? Why are these people ready to start civil war? Do they really think it will make their lives better?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 08:13:51 pm
Quote from: serr on May 08, 2014, 08:10:45 pm
Partially agree here. When Yanukovich accepted those demands it was too late, he crossed the line(even if he had nothing to do with those snipers). Probably it's too late now as well in Donetsk and Luhansk region, but government guaranteed protection for russian language(lol, like it needed any protection here), decentralisation of power, right to elect governors or whoever will replace them in hierarchy of power before protesters in the East started capturing weapons. Incident when police forces surrounded Right Sector in hotel in Kiev and made them disarm also took place before that.

So why? Why are these people ready to start civil war? Do they really think it will make their lives better?

Try to go to a pro-ru Ukrainian and tell him that  russian language is protected, power is decentralized, governors are self appointed by locals; maybe it will mean something to some but most of them will laugh at your face.
Not saying its the right answer, just that its the common reaction when things have passed the point of no return as you said  :?  maybe its still not that late, but if we just compare with maidan (I know, I always refer to this xD), as soon as people got badly injured/killed and many accusations were thrown around and everyone stopped trusting the government, it was too late.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 08, 2014, 08:16:10 pm

This nutjob  :mrgreen:

Be entertained, learn the truth!

It's like listening to RT, just crazier
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 08:17:04 pm
Quote
By unarmed I think he meant that they arent actively armed by the government anymore  :P
And they never were.

Quote
Really? How right sector is unarmed? Because I don't have information about it. Can you give some links please
Quote
Incident when police forces surrounded Right Sector in hotel in Kiev and made them disarm also took place before that.
https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/interior-ministry-weapons-found-at-former-right-sector-headquarters-in-dnipro-hotel-341642.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 08:17:26 pm
batalion Dnepro
(click to show/hide)
can somebody say what are they sing about?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 08, 2014, 08:18:36 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 08:17:26 pm
batalion Dnepro
(click to show/hide)
can somebody say what are they sing about?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 08:20:12 pm
Quote from: serr on May 08, 2014, 08:17:04 pm
And they never were.

I meant that in the funny way, that they never were armed by the government, but I think that those that want to be armed are still armed by their own volition  :wink:  (weapon smuggling etc)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 08:21:57 pm
It' a really pitty that russians and ukrainians are angry on each other. My grandma live in Kiev and neighboors dont speak with her, because she is russian. Few monthes ago everything was OK. I talked with her today
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 08:33:42 pm
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Not saying its not true what he says (I may listen to the vid later), but he isnt the first to label a video/article with the word "truth" and "real", making everyone liars in opposition  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 08:35:52 pm
Quote
batalion Dnepro
can somebody say what are they sing about?
Wow, looks silly. Not sure if it's true or fake, probably fake, but who knows... but this batallion started forming after latest events, not before and consist of volunteers, so yes, obviously there are a lot of nationalists there. Still it's ok as long as they follow orders.

Quote
It' a really pitty that russians and ukrainians are angry on each other.
True, I hope we will understand each other and stop accuse each other in different horrible things. Not gonna happen in nearest future though :(

Quote
My grandma live in Kiev and neighboors dont speak with her, because she is russian. Few monthes ago everything was OK. I talked with her today
And here let me not believe you. If she has pro-rus views and express them openly - then yes, that's rather expected.
But just for being russian - 100% wrong. There are too many russians in Ukraine and most ukrainians have russian relatives for that to be true.
I spent last week travelling in western Ukraine and Kiev and I didn't see russophobia there. People are afraid of and hate Russia and its actions, but not russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 08:50:55 pm
Quote from: serr on May 08, 2014, 08:35:52 pm
And here let me not believe you. If she has pro-rus views and express them openly - then yes, that's rather expected.
But just for being russian - 100% wrong. There are too many russians in Ukraine and most ukrainians have russian relatives for that to be true.
I spent last week travelling in western Ukraine and Kiev and I didn't see russophobia there. People are afraid of and hate Russia and its actions, but not russians.
Maybe not in all Ukraine, but this what my grandma said. People getting colder. She lives in Kozin 15 minutes from Kiev in own house.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 08, 2014, 09:02:45 pm
Quote
Maybe not in all Ukraine, but this what my grandma said. People getting colder. She lives in Kozin 15 minutes from Kiev in own house.

Not colder, people are getting more radical and that's not surprising. Usually people don't care about politics and build their relations, friendship without caring of each others political views, but now it would be difficult for me to call a friend someone who supported rebels in Slovyansk and welcomed killing of our soldiers. I expect it would be even more difficult for him to call me a friend. And I know real examples when people who were friends for ages started to dislike each other after last events. And the futher it goes, the more people will die - the worse it will get.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 09:10:56 pm
Drama is that in Slovyansk almost all the town is rebels. And propoganda in Ukraine as I know is strong, and in Russia there is propaganda against west Ukraine and new authorities in Kiev. As I know Turchinow is a baptist preecher, then it doesnt come to my mind why he supported this revolution and Timoshenko? Because Bible exactly against any revolution. I was born in baptism church.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 09:39:37 pm
The more I hear the rebels in the East talking, the more I realize how huge the information gap is between us, regardless of where the actual facts stand.

Even more importantly, I feel this gap would be much easier to overcome if I could understand the material that they are watching and conversely. Knowing only one language creates an ideological bubble.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 08, 2014, 09:55:38 pm
As I said few days ago : Pravy Sektor and Svoboda's militias join the National Guard and some Ukrainians soldiers join the PR(Pro-Russian) militias. The battle has begun now. Nobody laugh anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 08, 2014, 10:14:41 pm
Russian aircraft carrier sails into English Channel
HMS Dragon is escorting the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov through the English Channel
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10816463/Russian-aircraft-carrier-sails-into-English-Channel.html

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 10:19:50 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 09:39:37 pm
The more I hear the rebels in the East talking, the more I realize how huge the information gap is between us, regardless of where the actual facts stand.

Even more importantly, I feel this gap would be much easier to overcome if I could understand the material that they are watching and conversely. Knowing only one language creates an ideological bubble.

Most people on this thread speak english and some already gave you materials to think over ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 08, 2014, 10:22:17 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 08, 2014, 10:14:41 pm
Russian aircraft carrier sails into English Channel
HMS Dragon is escorting the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov through the English Channel
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10816463/Russian-aircraft-carrier-sails-into-English-Channel.html

(click to show/hide)

And there I was, thinking that Vovka did a 100% serious post for once.

THINK AGAIN
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2014, 10:24:41 pm
Its perfectly serious, France did surrender when the aircraft carrier passed 20km away from its coast  :o you didnt receive the telegraph?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 11:59:34 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 08, 2014, 10:19:50 pm
Most people on this thread speak english and some already gave you materials to think over ^^

It would be nice to understand e.g. news report on Russian channels. Most of the pro-rus rethoric going on in English is in the negative quality levels of journalism, and I can tell. It's easy to connect dots when you only have dots to go on.

At least with Russian sources I can't tell if it's straight conspiracy bullshit nobody listens to or if it's a generally accepted news source, so I'm curious.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on May 09, 2014, 12:50:58 am
Did not mean to derail the serious discussion, just came over this. And it seems very fresh, so figured I would post it in the thread.

RT put up a video showing various Russian missilesystems in action today.
Propaganda of course, "Do not poke the bear!"


Seeing and hearing those missilebatteries firing massive barrages ....

I hope Ukrainian shotcallers know that they can not solve this situation with force...
Yulia Timoshenko and friends thinking empty promises from EU and NATO will back them up, will end up like Georgian president Saakashvili eating his tie.

The bear
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on May 09, 2014, 05:18:03 am
Quote from: Torost on May 09, 2014, 12:50:58 am
Did not mean to derail the serious discussion, just came over this. And it seems very fresh, so figured I would post it in the thread.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 09, 2014, 06:12:12 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 08, 2014, 11:59:34 pm
It would be nice to understand e.g. news report on Russian channels. Most of the pro-rus rethoric going on in English is in the negative quality levels of journalism, and I can tell. It's easy to connect dots when you only have dots to go on.

At least with Russian sources I can't tell if it's straight conspiracy bullshit nobody listens to or if it's a generally accepted news source, so I'm curious.

Don't be blind. More and more westerners tell the truth now. Not only the russian medias. Another exemple here with Ron Paul (Former libertarian representative for Texas (1976-85 and 1997-2008) :

Quote
On the brink of what he calls a “civil war,” former United States congressman and presidential candidate Ron Paul has called on the US to stay out of the intensifying Ukraine conflict, saying it was Western powers that initially stirred unrest there and which continue to incite the tense situation.

It looks like the civil war in Ukraine is getting much worse. Western Ukraine right now is being urged on by its Western supporters, meaning its NATO supporters, the European Union, the United States and the IMF (International Monetary Fund). Western Ukraine has moved to take back control of the cities in Eastern Ukraine that have been taken over by supporters of Russia.

Of course, it’s said in the major media that Russia has started all of this trouble, and so all this has to be done. The truth is, the coup of several weeks ago to overthrow the elected leader Viktor Yanokovych was stirred up by the same group: NATO, the European Union, the U.S., and the IMF.

Since this whole mess was started, we’ve been very much involved by spending more than $5 billion to control Ukraine. And this intervention continues. But the current fighting looks like a serious escalation that may get out of control, even though it’s in the interest on both sides, the West as well as Russia, not to escalate. There have been a lot of threats and intimidation on sanctions and economic penalties, which very well could get out of control.

Added recently has been a promise from the IMF of $17 billion to Ukraine under a specific condition: get rid of the control of these Eastern cities by Russian supporters. This is a condition that has been placed on them, so it’s not a surprise that, seemingly all of a sudden, we are seeing more aggressive activity by the Western Ukrainians to try to conquer these cities.

Ironically, the IMF doesn’t seem to have much common sense in trying to help the Ukrainian people because, in order to get this $17 billion, not only must they fight and control the East, they also have to raise taxes and increase oil prices—which will not help the people. This is generally the case when there are sanctions placed on a country, or when war breaks out: the people suffer and the special interests seem to thrive.

Also, I think this is certainly a shift from pretending that the Western Ukrainians are on the defensive because they’ve now instituted a military draft. In all seriousness, if a country is defending itself, then the people rally and you don’t have to use conscription to get fighters.

I maintain that it’s a mess over there, and it’s getting worse. We’re contributing to the problems. It would be much better for the Ukrainians, for the Europeans, for the Russians, and for the Americans, for us to just stay out and follow the principles of a non-intervention foreign policy. Don’t send the money and don’t send them weapons. Don’t get involved and don’t pick sides. Then I think the Ukrainian people might be able to settle this on their own, and a lot better than when there’s outside interference.
Ron Paul

Does Ron Paul is a russian propagandist ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 09, 2014, 08:22:46 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 09, 2014, 06:12:12 am
Don't be blind. More and more westerners tell the truth now. Not only the russian medias. Another exemple here with Ron Paul (Former libertarian representative for Texas (1976-85 and 1997-2008) :

Does Ron Paul is a russian propagandist ?
Cite your fucking sources  please :) If I understood correctly - the only "quote" in this whole paragraph is "civil war", which, when used out of context, may be turned around how ever you want.

Also - tell me, who is more blind - russian people, who watch only kremlin owned media or eastern europeans, who are able and watch both russia propaganda channels and western media?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 09, 2014, 09:19:44 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 09, 2014, 06:12:12 am
Does Ron Paul is a russian propagandist ?

Ron Paul is an American isolationist. Sorry to bring that analogy but he would also have not intervened back in WW2. In other words, he is part of the usual suspects and has a very good reason to say that this is true, regardless of whether it is true or not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 09, 2014, 10:40:49 am
Tovi get a habit to paste links in the posts where you give us "shocking news" and make sure that these sources are trustworthy.  Because sometimes your posts look like my quote taken out of context by Porthos.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 09, 2014, 10:44:27 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 09, 2014, 10:40:49 am
Tovi get a habit to paste links in the posts where you give us "shocking news" and make sure that these sources are trustworthy.[...]
Oh, he does. Don't be unfair!
Just because we aren't as open-minded and informed as Tovi is, we lack the understanding to process his well-sourced posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 09, 2014, 01:12:50 pm
One should cite source that the first source is a true source  :P  never-ending
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 09, 2014, 01:29:54 pm
ANY source would be welcome.

Unless you are a butan OFC. Then you either don't need sources, if it fits your vision, or you need sources of sources, because <reasons>.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 09, 2014, 01:44:48 pm
Its true I dont often use articles to base my arguments on, I prefer to use my -retarded- brain  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 05:03:19 pm
I'll be surprised, if there are no serious conflicts/confrontations today of all days.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 09, 2014, 05:10:42 pm
Casualties as fighting breaks out in Ukraine port city of Mariupol (http://www.straitstimes.com/news/world/europe/story/casualties-fighting-breaks-out-ukraine-port-city-mariupol-20140509)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 09, 2014, 05:38:45 pm

I do not give source because no source can be 100% sure. I just give different material. I could speak a long time about why Medias are always under many influences. Be what I can say is that western medias are more isolated around the world about the Ukraine Crisis than their people think. If you watch medias from Brazil, China, India etc., they just don't understand what USA and EU are doing in Ukraine. In western countries, only alternative medias gives a different opinion.
So you can always says : "That doesn't come from MY favorite (mainstream) media, so it's bullshit".
If you admit that a media just gives the information it receive, you'll start to understand the way it works.
If you have a doubt, make your own researchs. It's always good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 09, 2014, 06:19:25 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 09, 2014, 05:38:45 pm
So you can always says : "That doesn't come from MY favorite (mainstream) media, so it's bullshit".
If you admit that a media just gives the information it receive, you'll start to understand the way it works.
If you have a doubt, make your own researchs. It's always good.

Haha, most people don't want to understand though. Neither they want objective journalism.

They just want to hear their views echo back from the medium.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 06:52:50 pm
I don't think that everybody thinks like this woman, but...
The speech of the Deputy in the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine:
"All those who speaks Russian in our hall here, brutally breaks our language law. And I need to remind them the legendary hristamatiyny phrase: In the state who doesn't speak a state language - either the guest, or the boor, or the invader. Boors simply are sent, and invaders are shoot, here then we will have an order on the language front."
(click to show/hide)

The speech on the maidan:
"It is necessary to learn in the end of the ends truthfully to read the history and to understand - our first enemy is Moscow, and it is our national road, and it is our program and the plan of action. Get up, break shackles off and with evil enemy blood sprinkle a freedom. Enemy, not ours.
(click to show/hide)
Cant understand what Moscow did to Ukraine before Maidan started?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 07:01:36 pm
Should learn history then. Kremlin is national enemy #1 for pretty much every nation, that has a land border with Russia, and not without a reason.

She seems like a radical fringe crackpot, though. Every government has at least one of those, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 07:11:44 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 07:01:36 pm
Should learn history then. Kremlin is national enemy #1 for pretty much every nation, that has a land border with Russia, and not without a reason.

She seems like a radical fringe crackpot, though. Every government has at least one of those, right?
What history? So you want to say that, France is  national enemy #1, Germany is  national enemy #1, Mongolia is national enemy #1 and so on?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 09, 2014, 07:13:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 07:11:44 pm
What history? So you want to say that, France is  national enemy #1, Germany is  national enemy #1, Mongolia is national enemy #1 and so on?
This post forces the question of "Are you actually that stupid or just pretending to be?"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 07:14:08 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 07:11:44 pm
What history? So you want to say that, France is  national enemy #1, Germany is  national enemy #1, Mongolia is national enemy #1 and so on?
What?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 07:14:58 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 09, 2014, 07:13:02 pm
This post forces the question of "Are you actually that stupid or just pretending to be?"
What do you mean?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 07:17:32 pm
I don't know if this is a language barrier or something, but your post made no sense whatsoever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 07:18:02 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 07:14:08 pm
What?
It means yes we had wars with some of them, but not Ukraine, Belarus and other some neighbors. But why you say that Kremlin is national enemy #1 for pretty much every nation, that has a land border with Russia, and not without a reason. So according to your logic I wrote my message, understand?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 09, 2014, 07:21:51 pm
I'm not too good in geography but I don't think Germany nor France have a border to Russia. Guess I misunderstood :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 07:24:55 pm
This is why i said, learn history. It's not about wars. It's about how Kremlin treated these nations.

Baltic nations were serfs to German settlers for 700 years, they fought against our first independent government after WW1, then tried to topple it in a surprise attack. Our territory was once again occupied by German forces during WW2, who were quite responsible for the events, that lead to us losing our first independence in the first place, yet they are held in very good regard over here. Same with other nations, that at some point had occupied this territory, such as Swedes and Poles. Yet Kremlin is THE foe. Same story for many other nations (with the exception of Belorussians, since they failed to remain a nation of its own). Learn history and find out why.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 09, 2014, 07:30:07 pm
Yeah, learn history and don't listen to Farion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iryna_Farion
It is shame that there are such people in our parliament, still they don't express views of majority and they don't have real weight in decision making.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 07:32:13 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 09, 2014, 07:21:51 pm
I'm not too good in geography but I don't think Germany nor France have a border to Russia. Guess I misunderstood :)
I said it because, they began WW
OMG, am I missed any sarcasm PTX? Maybe there is some language barriers indeed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 09, 2014, 08:09:27 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 09, 2014, 07:24:55 pm
(click to show/hide)



No shit Russia has enemy to account for.
And you seem to be one.


If Russia is #1 enemy of every nations that has a land connection with them, can I add that USA is #1 enemy of every nations that share an aerial corridor with them?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 09, 2014, 08:14:39 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 09, 2014, 05:38:45 pm

I do not give source because no source can be 100% sure. I just give different material. I could speak a long time about why Medias are always under many influences. Be what I can say is that western medias are more isolated around the world about the Ukraine Crisis than their people think. If you watch medias from Brazil, China, India etc., they just don't understand what USA and EU are doing in Ukraine. In western countries, only alternative medias gives a different opinion.
So you can always says : "That doesn't come from MY favorite (mainstream) media, so it's bullshit".
If you admit that a media just gives the information it receive, you'll start to understand the way it works.
If you have a doubt, make your own researchs. It's always good.

I see no point. Your "alternative" source is Russia's government media translated in your native language and there is no doubt for anyone that trustworthy of this media is getting closer and closer to Northern Korea's bullshit. They claim that people on the roof of that building in Odessa are nаzis who were there just to provoke. Even pro-Russians themselves don't say such bullshit.

Listening to the opinion of Russian media and believing that it's not biased in this case is a horrible mistake. I'm watching Russian media from time to time and the amount of bullshit is so high and the quality of it is so low that I tend to believe that only naive people can consume such information. You know, any media contains a portion of bullshit, some certain media consists of it entirely. While you say that you don't trust mainstream media because of one-sided opinion and you only trust alternative media, doesn't it make you trust one-sided opinion but just the opposite? I've made a lot of researches trying to distinguish some certain sources of Russian news. The fact that every popular fake bullshit that gets into social networks, almost always gets to "breaking news" of Russian official media. Only the way how they call any citizen with Ukrainian flag should be a big no for everyone to watch it. If you carry Ukrainian flag then you're nаzi, fascist and a bandit. If you're carrying Russian flag even with AK and RPG then you're a peaceful protester who wants to live in a motherland.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 06:52:50 pm
I don't think that everybody thinks like this woman, but...
The speech of the Deputy in the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine:
"All those who speaks Russian in our hall here, brutally breaks our language law. And I need to remind them the legendary hristamatiyny phrase: In the state who doesn't speak a state language - either the guest, or the boor, or the invader. Boors simply are sent, and invaders are shoot, here then we will have an order on the language front."
(click to show/hide)

The speech on the maidan:
"It is necessary to learn in the end of the ends truthfully to read the history and to understand - our first enemy is Moscow, and it is our national road, and it is our program and the plan of action. Get up, break shackles off and with evil enemy blood sprinkle a freedom. Enemy, not ours.
(click to show/hide)
Cant understand what Moscow did to Ukraine before Maidan started?

She's just retarded, nevermind. If we took your Zhirinovskiy for real, it would be even worse than her.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 09, 2014, 08:17:30 pm
USA is the enemy of every nations who refuse their hegemony: "You are with us or you are against us"...

edit @Dave : Ok, Russian medias are also "mainstream" in their country. That's not the question. I don't see any bullshit in this video, particulary.
But, from my point of vue, I just hear the "voice of America" wich Putin is the bad guy, as usual. They never have to prove anything, that's always Putin's fault. Even when they admit to have supported far right rioters at Maidan. My mainstream medias really try to brainwash people. But some of us try to resist to this propaganda.
A minority of westerners want to treat with Putin, not threat him. We are tired to make war in Africa, Middle West or Asia as auxiliaries of the US empire. And we don't want them initiate another war in Europe. We don't need NATO anymore, and we don't want another war to convince us of the contrary.
Meanwhile, they try to "fuck EU" with their secret dirty TTIP trade agreement.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 09, 2014, 09:31:25 pm
(click to show/hide)
deputy chief of the Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine in Odessa region Dmitry Fuchedzhi is in this video who left the country. Avakov said "Mister Fuchedzhi at 5am crossed border and absconded, he is put on the wanted list"
Also in this video we see secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine Andriy Parubiy
I just want to know is it so hard to catch Dmitry Fuchedzhi, or authorities don't want to catch him? And why Avakov knew exact time when he left the country? Also some people in Odessa say, that this was planned by Parubiy, but out of control, because militia has come after one hour, and then firefighters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 12:02:45 am
Quote from: Butan on May 09, 2014, 08:09:27 pm
If Russia is #1 enemy of every nations that has a land connection with them, can I add that USA is #1 enemy of every nations that share an aerial corridor with them?  :lol:

What real enemies do the USA have ? Recently, Russia started being one again, NK hates America since forever but NK hates everybody anyway, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba... ? All of them peerless defenders of peace, democracy and human rights. The last geopolitical stunt similar to what happened to Crimea the USA did is more than 150 years old. Russia still occupied some of its current neighbors less than 30 years ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 12:11:30 am
If you bring it down to 20 years, Russia has been at war with only 1 neighbouring country : Georgia. It lasted 5 days.

Same timeline, USA = about a dozen wars and anti-terrorist global ops that you could count, all of them far far away from their territory.


And then Russia is #1 enemy, right.
USA is in all things comparably worse. I dont know how you can argue against that.
The only worse thing you can bring up against Russia is pre-1991 shit but there is only the godwin lovers to bring that up in our current era and use it as a legit argument as how things works today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 10, 2014, 12:20:29 am
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 12:11:30 am
If you bring it down to 20 years, Russia has been at war with only 1 neighbouring country : Georgia. It lasted 5 days.

Same timeline, USA = about a dozen wars and anti-terrorist global ops that you could count, all of them far far away from their territory.


And then Russia is #1 enemy, right.
USA is in all things comparably worse. I dont know how you can argue against that.
The only worse thing you can bring up against Russia is pre-1991 shit but there is only the godwin lovers to bring that up in our current era and use it as a legit argument as how things works today.

Here's a question: Do you count an Occupation as a War?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 12:33:33 am
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 12:11:30 am
If you bring it down to 20 years, Russia has been at war with only 1 neighbouring country : Georgia. It lasted 5 days.

Same timeline, USA = about a dozen wars and anti-terrorist global ops that you could count, all of them far far away from their territory.


And then Russia is #1 enemy, right.
USA is in all things comparably worse. I dont know how you can argue against that.
The only worse thing you can bring up against Russia is pre-1991 shit but there is only the godwin lovers to bring that up in our current era and use it as a legit argument as how things works today.
Hey, let us ignore absolutely every fucking foreign-policy related thing Russia has done in the last 20 years, my point is so fucking valid right now. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:33:52 am
No, as long as you remain a slave you can live in peace  :twisted:

That's why Europa is peacefull  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 12:36:21 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:33:52 am
No, as long as you remain a slave you can live in peace  :twisted:

That's why Europa is peacefull  :mrgreen:
If i have to choose between being a slave to USA or being a slave to Russia, i'll choose USA 100% of the time. Be grateful your precious France does not border Russia, else your "alternative" thoughts might just be seen as utterly fucking retarded by everyone around you.

Oh wait, they already are? I must have overestimated human ability for basic logic operations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 12:39:03 am
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 12:11:30 am
If you bring it down to 20 years, Russia has been at war with only 1 neighbouring country : Georgia. It lasted 5 days.
 
Same timeline, USA = about a dozen wars and anti-terrorist global ops that you could count, all of them far far away from their territory.

Which are... ? Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria ? Not to mention we are talking about international operations, unlike Georgia which was just the good old landgrab.
Besides, this argument is about as ridiculous as saying France is an evil superpower compared with Monaco.

Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 12:11:30 am
And then Russia is #1 enemy, right.
USA is in all things comparably worse. I dont know how you can argue against that.
The only worse thing you can bring up against Russia is pre-1991 shit but there is only the godwin lovers to bring that up in our current era and use it as a legit argument as how things works today.

The US has been more active in the last 20 years because Russia was in shambles, and most of its historical backyard entered NATO for reasons PTX already explained. Russia is weak outside of its regional sphere of influence and has no interest interfering with countries the US has been interfering with. In fact because Russia is positioning itself as an enemy to "American Hegemony", it seeks allies among the numerous shitholes. Shitholes pissed off because someone interferes with their "legitimate sovereignty".

Quote from: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:33:52 am
No, as long as you remain a slave you can live in peace  :twisted:

That's why Europa is peacefull  :mrgreen:

What is "being a slave" ? As a Belgian I can tell you I'm so pissed I can't be a regional bully and annex Luxemburg. The world would be a much better place to live if we had medieval geopolitics. I absolutely would prefer that over living in peace, rule of law and prosperity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:40:54 am
I am the kind of guy who choose to not be a slave at all.

Oh, and we have Germany at our border. That was not so cool every days  :wink: But thanks to Russia they had a lesson of human egality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 12:44:33 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:40:54 am
I am the kind of guy who choose to not be a slave at all.

Oh, and we have Germany at our border. That was not so cool every days  :wink: But thanks to Russia they had a lesson of human egality.
You suck at not being a slave. Try harder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:49:42 am
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 12:44:33 am
You suck at not being a slave. Try harder.

You are probably right. I still consider myself as a slave. That's why I become more and more radical. You may find me, one day, in the siberian's forest, living with the wolves. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2014, 01:03:28 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 12:39:03 am
Which are... ? Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria ? Not to mention we are talking about international operations, unlike Georgia which was just the good old landgrab.
Besides, this argument is about as ridiculous as saying France is an evil superpower compared with Monaco.

The US has been more active in the last 20 years because Russia was in shambles, and most of its historical backyard entered NATO for reasons PTX already explained. Russia is weak outside of its regional sphere of influence and has no interest interfering with countries the US has been interfering with. In fact because Russia is positioning itself as an enemy to "American Hegemony", it seeks allies among the numerous shitholes. Shitholes pissed off because someone interferes with their "legitimate sovereignty".

What is "being a slave" ? As a Belgian I can tell you I'm so pissed I can't be a regional bully and annex Luxemburg. The world would be a much better place to live if we had medieval geopolitics. I absolutely would prefer that over living in peace, rule of law and prosperity.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 01:42:48 am
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 12:33:33 am
Hey, let us ignore absolutely every fucking foreign-policy related thing Russia has done in the last 20 years, my point is so fucking valid right now. :rolleyes:
Can I ask you what offending things Russia did to the Baltic countries over the last 20 years?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 10, 2014, 02:10:01 am
Quote from: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 01:42:48 am
Can I ask you what offending things Russia did to the Baltic countries over the last 20 years?

Considering how quickly they joined NATO, I don't think it matters. Russia has done plenty of shit in the past 70 years to piss off lots of people(US too, but US hasn't forcefully annexed/held territory like USSR did, did do a lot of covert actions though....)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 02:26:56 am
On May 9 in Mariupol was a march in honor of the Great victory, 10000 people were acting in it. The Ukrainian army partitioned off a way with the help of the armored personnel carrier and Tanks. Then when people of Mariupol started to demand to clean the road from tanks, national guard started to shoot civils 3 men were killed and tens of people were wounded in first seconds. Also journalist of RT were wounded in his stomach. 3 Buildings were burned by batalion Dnepro. One of them was building of militia. For the last information 7 people were killed, about 40 were wounded. Chief of OSCE condemned violence in Mariupol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 02:42:57 am
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 12:33:33 am
Hey, let us ignore absolutely every fucking foreign-policy related thing Russia has done in the last 20 years, my point is so fucking valid right now. :rolleyes:

If foreign diplomacy count as bad-boy points to you, then yes Russia is very bad because they arent friendly with most of the lawful good NATO superpowers force of justice, and are friendly with some chaotic evil nations full of terrorists.
Thats not at all geopolitically biased points of views!


Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 10, 2014, 12:20:29 am
Here's a question: Do you count an Occupation as a War?

To occupy a country you need to be at war with the country, so yes  :P

If you're relating to what happened in Crimea, its a little bit more complicated since they used military personel authorized to station there by Ukraine itself before maidan happened.
And no civilians/military were killed during the occupation... I would say its the peacefulest non-UN military operation in the last decade.

(click to show/hide)


Quote from: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 12:39:03 am
Besides, this argument is about as ridiculous as saying France is an evil superpower compared with Monaco.


Well, if this thread was on a civil war where Monaco was interfering and people came and said "Monaco is fascistest warmongering nation in the world! SOMEONE STOP THEM OMG 1!!!11§1§§!!!", you wouldnt be chaffed knowing France did absolutely more terrible things ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 03:10:12 am
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 12:36:21 am
If i have to choose between being a slave to USA or being a slave to Russia, i'll choose USA 100% of the time.


A smarter question would be: if I have to choose between a world with 1 global superpower and 2+, I would choose 2+.

USA cant be trusted with the fate of the planet (noone is except if they manage to conquer everything :d), and I will welcome the day Russia becomes great again mostly because we need an opposition to imperialism, even if its just a second imperialism, because thats always better than a kind of shady world dictatorship.

Then ofc I would also prefer there is no few uber-OP nations just choosing the destiny of everyone else, but its a thing of our time  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 11:40:36 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 02:26:56 am
On May 9 in Mariupol was a march in honor of the Great victory, 10000 people were acting in it. The Ukrainian army partitioned off a way with the help of the armored personnel carrier and Tanks. Then when people of Mariupol started to demand to clean the road from tanks, national guard started to shoot civils 3 men were killed and tens of people were wounded in first seconds. Also journalist of RT were wounded in his stomach. 3 Buildings were burned by batalion Dnepro. One of them was building of militia. For the last information 7 people were killed, about 40 were wounded. Chief of OSCE condemned violence in Mariupol

That's how media in your country shows the situation. Yes, Ukrainians are so stupid nаzis that they need to provoke even in such days. OH SHIT, WE MUST KILL THEM ALL, HAIL TO GREAT PUTIN.
Funny though how they forget or even turn in inside out: pro-Russian separatists (armed, around 60) tried to capture the main police building in the city. National Guard of Ukraine (which is under Police jurisdiction and not Army) got called to defend the building. Also a chief of DAI (a kind of road/patrol police) got killed there by separatists that day. While NG was trying to get to a place, some certain amount of people tried to stop APCs being aggressive (a lot of people were drunk, but that's not strange for such day as it's a kind of ritual to drink some vodka on 9th of May as a day of Victory).

In this current situation I have double feelings. First of all, it's a pity that people die, no matter separatists or not and especially when they have no guns. But on the other hand, Ukrainians have a bitter experience with these "peaceful protesters" who block NG/army and take their guns. I'll show you one of curious videos which was used by Russian media as a proof of NG shooting at peaceful people. Just noticed one thing myself, that might be exclusive, just give me time to find it  :wink:

Edit: found it. And also it looks like I'm not the only one who noticed it  :?

Look at 12th second. Why would he need this? It's empty though, mb found or stole it somewhere.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 12:25:10 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 11:40:36 am
While NG was trying to get to a place, some certain amount of people tried to stop APCs being aggressive (a lot of people were drunk, but that's not strange for such day as it's a kind of ritual to drink some vodka on 9th of May as a day of Victory).

That man was drunk too :

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die them
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 12:27:40 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 12:25:10 pm
That man was drunk too :

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die them

Typical Butan. Nice logic comparing a military parade to an ATO.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grumbs on May 10, 2014, 12:27:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 03:10:12 am

A smarter question would be: if I have to choose between a world with 1 global superpower and 2+, I would choose 2+.

USA cant be trusted with the fate of the planet (noone is except if they manage to conquer everything :d), and I will welcome the day Russia becomes great again mostly because we need an opposition to imperialism, even if its just a second imperialism, because thats always better than a kind of shady world dictatorship.

Then ofc I would also prefer there is no few uber-OP nations just choosing the destiny of everyone else, but its a thing of our time  :rolleyes:

New cold war might get us to finally colonise space. Between Russia now talking about making a moon base by 2025, india with their cheap mission to mars, China's space program..maybe USA will pump some funds into Nasa again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 12:47:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 11:40:36 am
That's how media in your country shows the situation. Yes, Ukrainians are so stupid nаzis that they need to provoke even in such days. OH SHIT, WE MUST KILL THEM ALL, HAIL TO GREAT PUTIN.
Funny though how they forget or even turn in inside out: pro-Russian separatists (armed, around 60) tried to capture the main police building in the city. National Guard of Ukraine (which is under Police jurisdiction and not Army) got called to defend the building. Also a chief of DAI (a kind of road/patrol police) got killed there by separatists that day. While NG was trying to get to a place, some certain amount of people tried to stop APCs being aggressive (a lot of people were drunk, but that's not strange for such day as it's a kind of ritual to drink some vodka on 9th of May as a day of Victory).

In this current situation I have double feelings. First of all, it's a pity that people die, no matter separatists or not and especially when they have no guns. But on the other hand, Ukrainians have a bitter experience with these "peaceful protesters" who block NG/army and take their guns. I'll show you one of curious videos which was used by Russian media as a proof of NG shooting at peaceful people. Just noticed one thing myself, that might be exclusive, just give me time to find it  :wink:

Edit: found it. And also it looks like I'm not the only one who noticed it  :?

Look at 12th second. Why would he need this? It's empty though, mb found or stole it somewhere.
(click to show/hide)
About  main police building in the city was said that cheif of DAI Valerii Andryschuk ordered to militia to shoot in civils, but milita didn't obey to chief and made barricade in that building. Then batalion Dnepro atacked that building and burned it. Yes, I think there were armed opposition of Mariupol which shoot to the Ukranian army. About 20 oppositioners were killed, 1 from Ukranian army. But shooting in the civils I think is not a way to make a dialogue with the East. if you will listen to civils interviews, then it almost impossible now. I think from both sides Ukranian and Russian there is no objective information, I write here what says in russian tv and youtube. The violence shouldn't become covered by any motives. I think that russian send some special forces to Crimea to prevent the situation like on the East and Odessa. Thanks to Ukranian army they didn't started to shoot to civils and russian army in Crimea, because then it could be a war between two brother country. But I think that Crimea would made a refferendum even there wasn't any russian army. I think the federalization of the East is a bad thing, because this will almost ruine their economy, as turchinov said. I agree with that. But they need to stop to fight and start to speek with civils.
Dont you think Dave that this war is between Russia and USA and ukranians suffer because of it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:52:30 pm
Dave, you still try to caricature. When a russian media talk about crimes from ukrainians militias you reply "Oh yes Ukrainians are all nazees and Putin is the good guy. Bullshit !"
Why not just admit that your country is under fascists militias control (even partially) ? If west ukrainians do not clean that plague, they will lead you to war.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 10, 2014, 12:53:44 pm
I don't believe anything involving "aimed shooting at unarmed civilians" until I have seen proper proof for it.
Anything starting with that kind of stuff, I'll put in the area of utter bullshit until proven otherwise...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 12:55:37 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 10, 2014, 12:53:44 pm
I don't believe anything involving "aimed shooting at unarmed civilians" until I have seen proper proof for it.
Anything starting with that kind of stuff, I'll put in the area of utter bullshit until proven otherwise...
there is on youtube but on russian language, also one of Russia Today journalist were wounded in stomach, so I think you will see it on RT
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:56:28 pm
As I said before, Ukrainian army is infiltrated by provocators. Especially the National Guard and special forces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 10, 2014, 12:57:03 pm
I said proper proof. RT hardly falls under that line.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 01:00:52 pm
I'm not an UNO inspector, so I can't give any "proof". And my source is not RT.
I give you some explanations about ukrainians events. You are free to think that Putin is a great Devil like Ben Laden or whoever you want. That's a way to see Reality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 01:15:06 pm
Some video by civils:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 10, 2014, 01:19:04 pm
Second video, 2:52
Peaceful civils...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 01:20:23 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 10, 2014, 12:57:03 pm
I said proper proof. RT hardly falls under that line.

Hmmm... You know you dont have to believe what RT "says" about such or such events, you just have to watch the videos. Images dont lie. Or you're also accusing RT of editing their vids?...

If all pro-Kiev medias refuses to publish videos where bad light shines down on Kiev actions, and RT does, you're going to auto-brainwash with that kind of reaction.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 01:21:56 pm
Quote from: serr on May 10, 2014, 01:19:04 pm
Second video, 2:52
Peaceful civils...
I dont say nothing. He is an idiot. but seems to me this is traumatic weapon
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:23:38 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 01:42:48 am
Can I ask you what offending things Russia did to the Baltic countries over the last 20 years?
Yes, it would be a long list of diplomatic and covert offenses, disregarding the constant shittalking. (protip: Kiev government isn't the first they've labelled as fascist)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 01:31:53 pm
Quote from: serr on May 10, 2014, 01:19:04 pm
Second video, 2:52
Peaceful civils...


Serr, this is civil war... Ofc both sides fight it out. I think those that are in this thread since 18 february understand the problem...
In a civil war, whenever the government kills his own population they are always labelled as the bad guys.
At this point its no longer "which side is right which side is wrong".

examples : maidan, syria, russia with tchetchen.



I'm just eargerly waiting democratic countries to start to backpeddle from this civil war bloodbath because its beginning to be very very hard to justify whats happening. They arent consistent in their political/ethical approach.
Only way to justify it is keep talking about how Putin is behind everything, threatening world peace etc... but it will not work forever, and it never worked to stop the unrest itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 01:35:18 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:23:38 pm
Yes, it would be a long list of diplomatic and covert offenses, disregarding the constant shittalking. (protip: Kiev government isn't the first they've labelled as fascist)
When Kiev government was labelled as a fascist? I dont think that Kiev government is a fascist it has only some part of it. And it says that those crimes that made by this parts, didn't get any punishment and condemnation from government. And on Ukranian TV you can here only about pro-russian terrorists. Maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:44:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 01:35:18 pm
When Kiev government was labelled as a fascist? I dont think that Kiev government is a fascist it has only some part of it. And it says that those crimes that made by this parts, didn't get any punishment and condemnation from government. And on Ukranian TV you can here only about pro-russian terrorists. Maybe I'm wrong.
Ever since Maidan won? Why is it that the crimean and east ukrainian population, all under the influence of kremlin-controlled media, call the Kiev government a "fascist junta"?

I guess i've realised why is that us Balts see the current events in Ukraine as something so obvious. It's because Kremlin is doing only a few new things there. For the past 10 years or so, it has waged an information war of the exact same type (although obviously of much lower intensity) against the Baltic states - claiming our governments are fascist (being anti-fascist is so trendy over there), that the local russian-speaking minorities are repressed and that they are under threat of some impending doom. Kremlin-controlled media is influential not only over the population of Russia, the russian-speaking populations of neighboring countries are under the same influence. Kremlin is very well practiced at using those populations like a weapon against the governments of those countries, in order to achieve whatever agenda it is pursuing at the time. Which is why i don't believe for a second that the eastern Ukrainians are doing anything other than what Kremlin wants them to do, even in the unlikely scenario, where they don't have boots on the ground directly coordinating them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 01:47:12 pm
All non-pro-RUS screams putin is the same thing, does it mean they are bad? :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 10, 2014, 01:47:37 pm
Quote
When Kiev government was labelled as a fascist? I dont think that Kiev government is a fascist it has only some part of it.
Oh really? I would understand this from Butan, who don't speak russian, but I read mostly russian sources and it is EVERYWHERE. The worst is when people you respect, famous singers, writers you read start talk bullshit about "ukrainian fascism". Lately it came from "ukrainian government = fascism" to "Ukraine = fascism". I'm glad that you think otherwise, but there are clear tries, and it seems rather successful, from russian media and many public figures to equalize our country with fascism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 01:51:10 pm
Please serr, at least you I call you to sense, doesnt those who label Kiev fascist are as wrong and stupid as those who label Kremlin fascist?..

If you dont acknowledge the comparison and deem that one accusation is true and one is false, it means you are defending a side of the propaganda instead of the simple truth.


pls serr  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:53:40 pm
I edited my previous post:

Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:44:26 pm
I guess i've realised why is that us Balts see the current events in Ukraine as something so obvious. It's because Kremlin is doing only a few new things there. For the past 10 years or so, it has waged an information war of the exact same type (although obviously of much lower intensity) against the Baltic states - claiming our governments are fascist (being anti-fascist is so trendy over there), that the local russian-speaking minorities are repressed and that they are under threat of some impending doom. Kremlin-controlled media is influential not only over the population of Russia, the russian-speaking populations of neighboring countries are under the same influence. Kremlin is very well practiced at using those populations like a weapon against the governments of those countries, in order to achieve whatever agenda it is pursuing at the time. Which is why i don't believe for a second that the eastern Ukrainians are doing anything other than what Kremlin wants them to do, even in the unlikely scenario, where they don't have boots on the ground directly coordinating them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 01:54:58 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 12:47:55 pm
About  main police building in the city was said that cheif of DAI Valerii Andryschuk ordered to militia to shoot in civils, but milita didn't obey to chief and made barricade in that building. Then batalion Dnepro atacked that building and burned it. Yes, I think there were armed opposition of Mariupol which shoot to the Ukranian army. About 20 oppositioners were killed, 1 from Ukranian army. But shooting in the civils I think is not a way to make a dialogue with the East. if you will listen to civils interviews, then it almost impossible now. I think from both sides Ukranian and Russian there is no objective information, I write here what says in russian tv and youtube. The violence shouldn't become covered by any motives. I think that russian send some special forces to Crimea to prevent the situation like on the East and Odessa. Thanks to Ukranian army they didn't started to shoot to civils and russian army in Crimea, because then it could be a war between two brother country. But I think that Crimea would made a refferendum even there wasn't any russian army. I think the federalization of the East is a bad thing, because this will almost ruine their economy, as turchinov said. I agree with that. But they need to stop to fight and start to speek with civils.
Dont you think Dave that this war is between Russia and USA and ukranians suffer because of it

Valeriy Andryschuk is not a chief of DAI, I was speaking about Viktor Sayenko who got killed. About war against USA and Russia and Ukrainians suffering because of it. It may be, but even then I don't see Americans. How can they speak with "civilians" if they don't accept anything except separating from Ukraine? They don't accept any compromises, because they have a mission. Sending Russian spetsnaz to Ukraine to prevent fights against Russian army, does it even make any sense? It's like adding oil to extinguish fire. I kind of find it obvious that the only side who has profit from this situation is Russia. Of course USA is very concerned about this and wants to make Ukraine just another minion, it's the other obvious thing but they don't try to destroy the country at least. Or at least they don't do it obviously.

Quote from: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 12:52:30 pm
Dave, you still try to caricature. When a russian media talk about crimes from ukrainians militias you reply "Oh yes Ukrainians are all nazees and Putin is the good guy. Bullshit !"
Why not just admit that your country is under fascists militias control (even partially) ? If west ukrainians do not clean that plague, they will lead you to war.
Because it's not true. And even if it was true, it wouldn't change anything. As I've said a million of times: crimes of one person don't justify crimes of the other. There were and there are nаzis and fascists in Ukraine, there are even kind of extremists there. But they're nothing in the scale with those people with guns on the east.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 10, 2014, 02:00:49 pm
Quote
Please serr, at least you I call you to sense, doesnt those who label Kiev fascist are as wrong and stupid as those who label Kremlin fascist?..
If you dont acknowledge the comparison and deem that one accusation is true and one is false, it means you are defending a side of the propaganda instead of the simple truth.

pls serr  :cry:
While Kremlin has more signs of fascism than Kiev(it really has), there is no common labeling Kremlin to be fascist.

There's more about comparing personalities - einstein and Putin, yet again it is not even close to loud chorus "Ukrainian fascists banderas" from everywhere and speculating on ww2 history by russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 02:08:34 pm
I can wholefully agree there is more comparison points to be made between one and the other.

I wanted to thank you for being one of most open contradictor in that thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 02:39:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 01:54:58 pm
Valeriy Andryschuk is not a chief of DAI, I was speaking about Viktor Sayenko who got killed. About war against USA and Russia and Ukrainians suffering because of it. It may be, but even then I don't see Americans. How can they speak with "civilians" if they don't accept anything except separating from Ukraine? They don't accept any compromises, because they have a mission. Sending Russian spetsnaz to Ukraine to prevent fights against Russian army, does it even make any sense? It's like adding oil to extinguish fire. I kind of find it obvious that the only side who has profit from this situation is Russia. Of course USA is very concerned about this and wants to make Ukraine just another minion, it's the other obvious thing but they don't try to destroy the country at least. Or at least they don't do it obviously.
It's on russian.
(click to show/hide)
Dave dont you think that Timoshenko could provoke some acts in Ukraine because of what people die?
I think Turchinov and Yatsenuk have to go to the East and speak there without army? It is dangerous but it would help. Doesn't they escape like Yanukovich? If you will see videos many civilians on the East dont respect Kiev authorities. And it is really hard to do something now. And if you know russian soul, then you can understand that with army you will not get any dialogue. There is only two ways, 1) is to finish fights and get to the table 2) is to kill a lot of people more then half of East.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 02:47:49 pm
Quote from: serr on May 10, 2014, 01:47:37 pm
Oh really? I would understand this from Butan, who don't speak russian, but I read mostly russian sources and it is EVERYWHERE. The worst is when people you respect, famous singers, writers you read start talk bullshit about "ukrainian fascism". Lately it came from "ukrainian government = fascism" to "Ukraine = fascism". I'm glad that you think otherwise, but there are clear tries, and it seems rather successful, from russian media and many public figures to equalize our country with fascism.
Yes I know this is propoganda in Russia, I just want to know is the actions where radicals have killed people or beaten them were condemned by government? If yes can you give links please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 03:03:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 02:39:55 pm
It's on russian.
(click to show/hide)
Dave dont you think that Timoshenko could provoke some acts in Ukraine because of what people die?
I think Turchinov and Yatsenuk have to go to the East and speak there without army? It is dangerous but it would help. Doesn't they escape like Yanukovich? If you will see videos many civilians on the East dont respect Kiev authorities. And it is really hard to do something now. And if you know russian soul, then you can understand that with army you will not get any dialogue. There is only two ways, 1) is to finish fights and get to the table 2) is to kill a lot of people more then half of East.

She could, that's why the vast majority of Ukrainians doesn't want her to become President. Yatshenyuk and Turchinov already tried it before but they failed. Same thing happened to Crimea: they tried to decide the conflict without army, you can see how it ended. Russia wants the same thing to happen in eastern parts of Ukraine, that's obvious. Also "a lot more than half of East" is extremely overestimated, any proofs about that amount of people willing to join Russia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:12:19 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 03:03:38 pm
She could, that's why the vast majority of Ukrainians doesn't want her to become President. Yatshenyuk and Turchinov already tried it before but they failed. Same thing happened to Crimea: they tried to decide the conflict without army, you can see how it ended. Russia wants the same thing to happen in eastern parts of Ukraine, that's obvious. Also "a lot more than half of East" is extremely overestimated, any proofs about that amount of people willing to join Russia?
They dont want to join the Russia. They just against new authorities. About proofs you will see after referendum.
About Crimea:
(click to show/hide)
on russian
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 03:19:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:12:19 pm
They dont want to join the Russia. They just against new authorities. About proofs you will see after referendum.
About Crimea:
(click to show/hide)
on russian

After another referendum with 120+% of votes? Also how's a video with a bandit "Goblin" can have any place here? And what would happen if referendum fails? Will they just accept it and finish it? You're so naive.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 10, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:12:19 pm
They dont want to join the Russia. They just against new authorities. About proofs you will see after referendum.
[...]
Going to be fun to see another 146% voting where more people vote than registered :)

Hail open elections and proper democratic process.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:30:40 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 03:19:04 pm
After another referendum with 120+% of votes? Also how's a video with a bandit "Goblin" can have any place here? And what would happen if referendum fails? Will they just accept it and finish it? You're so naive.
Who is Goblin? Aksenov? Why? Doesnt he say a truth?
And what 120+% of votes? don't you think that is ukranian propoganda, go there and ask people if you dont believe. I have relatives on the East and I know their feelings. I think that it was a mistake to name them terrorists by government, because of that they took offence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:38:46 pm
q
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 03:39:24 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:30:40 pm
Who is Goblin? Aksenov? Why? Dont he say a truth?
And what 120+% of votes? don't you think that is ukranian propoganda, go there and ask people if you dont believe. I have relatives on the East and I know their feelings.

Yes, Aksyonov is also know in criminal society as "Goblin". And was never a secret. And no, he doesn't say the truth. He says a part of truth at max but that doesn't make it what he claims to be. In case of Crimea it's true that somewhere around of a half of population would join Russia (enough to bypass referendum) but definitely not 97%.

About more than 100% of votes.
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:30:40 pm
I think that it was a mistake to name them terrorists by government, because of that they took offence.

How are they different to Chechens? Or don't you think they were terrorists?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 03:54:18 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 03:39:24 pm
Yes, Aksyonov is also know in criminal society as "Goblin". And was never a secret. And no, he doesn't say the truth. He says a part of truth at max but that doesn't make it what he claims to be. In case of Crimea it's true that somewhere around of a half of population would join Russia (enough to bypass referendum) but definitely not 97%.

About more than 100% of votes.
(click to show/hide)

How are they different to Chechens? Or don't you think they were terrorists?

As I know last population census was in 2001. Maybe some people can be born there in 13 years. Well maybe Aksenov made crime in 90's as almost all deputy in Russia and Ukraine. But I don't see lies in his speech. Government didn't react properly.
I condemn the war in chechnya. Chechens werent named as terrorists. Half of terrorists that fought against Russia are now with Russia. Extreme war in Chechnya began after some explosions of houses in the Moscow. And now this is good region of the Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2014, 04:27:52 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:44:26 pm
Ever since Maidan won? Why is it that the crimean and east ukrainian population, all under the influence of kremlin-controlled media, call the Kiev government a "fascist junta"?

Easy to understand why. You've already heard Tymoshenko's rhetorics. Infamous Svoboda party was founded as Social-National Party of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-National_Party_of_Ukraine), later they kicked out some radicals which formed Right Sector and other neo-nazi gangs that plague big cities of Ukraine.

Putin and Russia aside, big part of current Ukrainian government has a lot of connections with neo-nazis and fascism. Trying to deny that, by hiding behind "Putin says that are fascist, which means they are not" is just silly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 05:24:20 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:23:38 pm
Yes, it would be a long list of diplomatic and covert offenses, disregarding the constant shittalking. (protip: Kiev government isn't the first they've labelled as fascist)
Can you list at least major of these offenses? Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to understand, why people in Baltic counties would believe that post-soviet Russia is their enemy. All I can remember is some sprats troubles in the middle of the past decade. And the controversial case of the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. If you list the basic diplomatic and covert offenses made by Russia, I'd understand your point of view more clearly.
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 01:44:26 pm
For the past 10 years or so, it has waged an information war against the Baltic states - claiming that the local russian-speaking minorities are repressed and that they are under threat of some impending doom.
So, it is a lie, the stories about the large part of the russian community of Latvia and Estonia still have non-citizen status since 1991, and having a troubles with to gaining the citizenship? And also the language problems for russian-speaking people is a fiction in Baltic countries? Tell me then the real situation about this issue, please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 10, 2014, 05:25:25 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 11:40:36 am
(click to show/hide)


on 1:05 i think operator from video which you mentioned



3:23 3 shoot from left in guy in blue (for sure separatist with rpg)

from another spot

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 06:01:31 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 05:24:20 pm
Can you list at least major of these offenses? Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to understand, why people in Baltic counties would believe that post-soviet Russia is their enemy. All I can remember is some sprats troubles in the middle of the past decade. And the controversial case of the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. If you list the basic diplomatic and covert offenses made by Russia, I'd understand your point of view more clearly.
Fine.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2014, 06:10:33 pm
Russia is like that with all its smaller neighbors. Their foreign politics with Finland are pretty similar. One of their favorite tactics is getting a general of theirs to make direct threats "in case Finland joins NATO" and then have the government say "they don't support his stance", time after time, and of course no action is taken against the general. They also love to pressure their neighboring countries with economic sanctions and so on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2014, 06:17:15 pm
@ptx

No need to explain me that, I know how Kremlin does business. Only reason why Yugoslavia managed to avoid the fate of Baltic countries, Ukraine, Belarus, Hungary is USA support. Stalin obviously had an idea to go further, maybe even to Greece but he was stopped. Balance of power assured he can't get what he wanted. His successors follow the same way, but some are less competent than others (Yeltsin, Khrushchev).

But I'm not talking about Russian side here or what they say/do to make current Ukraine government look bad. Ukraine goverment make themselves look bad by siding with the likes of Right Sector and Svoboda. I know it was necessary for them to succeed and overthrow russian puppet of a president, but that doesn't mean they won't be reminded of it and they should get thumbs up for being in company of neo-chocolate chip cookie groups.

What bothers me is lack of objectivity, fueled by personal experience and country of origin (it's very clear who "hates" Russia and who supports it and why). Russia is warmonger just like every other major force in the world. Difference is in approach. Russians have their, blunt approach to conquest. USA has their own perfidious approach and Chinese have another approach (I strongly believe that all these schools of Chinese language and promoting Chinese culture around the world is actually conquest strategy).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 06:32:02 pm
Yatsenyuk said that everybody will be freed from jail, and everybody will be punished who killed civilians. that was before revolution 23 february. Now they send army to the East, where civilians die. Will he punish himself?
(click to show/hide)
And somebody give me links, where Kiev government condemn radicals who killed civilians and beat them in Odessa and other regions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 06:51:47 pm
I may be wrong, but I really don't think that Putin wants to invade Ukraine. He wants to avoid Ukraine joining NATO (wich was on the way to be accomplished) and he wants to avoid Ukraine opening his borders to EU and Russia together.
Imagine Spain, for exemple, who choose to open his border to Morroco immigration and trade. What would be the France (and rest of EU) reaction ?
Opened borders from Portugal to Vladivostock would mean the destruction of russian economy wich is not competitive enough to suffer the shock. That's why Putin asked to Ianoukovitch to choose between EU and Russia. And Russia offer was more interesting (Gas price, financial support etc.).
In a federal system, I suppose that the opposition would be strong enough to neutralize the situation (= staying out of EU and NATO).

Divide Ukraine may be another option, but more dangerous. And it won't not so easy to absorb eastern weak economy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 07:05:13 pm
SBU caught a group of armed people who were delivering 100.000 of filled bulletins for tomorrow's so called referendum. Obviously, they were filled "yes". Same scenario as in Crimea? DonNicko, tell me more how there are more people in Sevastopol since 2001 (yeah, with total population of 300k they managed to give 400+k of votes, including children?) :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:05:51 pm
About what Tovi said: there was tender of Pentagon to make repair in the school in Sevastopol. Why?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 07:16:21 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:05:51 pm
About what Tovi said: there was tender of Pentagon to make repair in the school in Sevastopol. Why?
(click to show/hide)

I once again ask you not to post videos from Russian government's media :rolleyes: They've yelled "wolf" so many times that not even a wolf would believe them. What's the point of trying to persuade anyone that US was trying to capture Crimea when they've already done it themselves?

Here's the link: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb&tab=core&_cview=1
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 07:18:08 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 06:51:47 pm
I may be wrong, but I really don't think that Putin wants to invade Ukraine. He wants to avoid Ukraine joining NATO (wich was on the way to be accomplished) and he wants to avoid Ukraine opening his borders to EU and Russia together.
Imagine Spain, for exemple, who choose to open his border to Morroco immigration and trade. What would be the France (and rest of EU) reaction ?
Opened borders from Portugal to Vladivostock would mean the destruction of russian economy wich is not competitive enough to suffer the shock. That's why Putin asked to Ianoukovitch to choose between EU and Russia. And Russia offer was more interesting (Gas price, financial support etc.).
In a federal system, I suppose that the opposition would be strong enough to neutralize the situation (= staying out of EU and NATO).

Divide Ukraine may be another option, but more dangerous. And it won't not so easy to absorb eastern weak economy.
It's ever so amusing, when you attempt to think. The results are always so funny. I'm sure Ukraine is totally against NATO now. Why would it seek allies to the West, when it's big brother is ever so friendly?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:22:25 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 07:05:13 pm
SBU caught a group of armed people who were delivering 100.000 of filled bulletins for tomorrow's so called referendum. Obviously, they were filled "yes". Same scenario as in Crimea? DonNicko, tell me more how there are more people in Sevastopol since 2001 (yeah, with total population of 300k they managed to give 400+k of votes, including children?) :rolleyes:

I dont know how, but and you exactly cant say the truth. About video, it can be. And dont you think that it can be provokation? Just imagine. Even if we will take off 100000 of bulletins, it wont change the result - mathematics)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 10, 2014, 07:23:48 pm
Ok, here are some biscuits about Russia/Ukraine/NATO relationships :
[ NATO official response to Russia]
Quote
NATO’s media note dealing with Russia’s accusations
Russia’s accusations - setting the record straight

Russia’s aggression against Ukraine has led to Russia’s international isolation, including NATO’s suspension of all practical cooperation with Russia. To divert attention away from its actions, Russia has levelled a series of accusations against NATO which are based on misrepresentations of the facts and ignore the sustained effort that NATO has put into building a partnership with Russia. Russia has also made baseless attacks on the legitimacy of the Ukrainian authorities and has used force to seize part of Ukraine’s territory. This document sets the record straight.
Russia claims that NATO has spent years trying to marginalise it internationally.

Since the early 1990s the Alliance has consistently worked to build a cooperative relationship with Russia on areas of mutual interest, and striven towards a strategic partnership.

Before the fall of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, NATO began reaching out, offering dialogue in place of confrontation, as the London NATO Summit of July 1990 made clear (declaration here). In the following years, the Alliance promoted dialogue and cooperation by creating new fora, the Partnership for Peace (PfP) and the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council (EAPC), open to the whole of Europe, including Russia (PfP founding documents here and here).

As a sign of Russia’s unique role in Euro-Atlantic security, in 1997 NATO and Russia signed the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security, creating the NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council. In 2002 they upgraded that relationship, creating the NATO-Russia Council (NRC). (The Founding Act can be read here, the Rome Declaration which established the NRC here.)

Since the foundation of the NRC, NATO and Russia have worked together on issues ranging from counter-narcotics and counter-terrorism to submarine rescue and civil emergency planning. No other partner has been offered a comparable relationship.

Far from marginalising Russia, NATO has treated it as a privileged partner.
NATO’s continuation and enlargement

Russian officials say that NATO should have been disbanded at the end of the Cold War, and that the accession of new Allies from Central and Eastern Europe undermines Russia’s security.

NATO was not disbanded after the Cold War because its members wanted to retain the bond that had guaranteed security and stability in the transatlantic area, as the London Declaration makes clear: “We need to keep standing together, to extend the long peace we have enjoyed these past four decades”. Upholding the values that have always guided it, NATO became more than a powerful military Alliance: it became a political forum for dialogue and cooperation.

NATO’s Open Door policy has been, and will always be, based on the free choice of European democracies. When Ukraine decided to pursue a “non-bloc policy,” NATO fully respected that choice. Russia’s long-time assertion that NATO tried to force Ukraine into its ranks was, and remains, completely false.

NATO has fulfilled the terms of Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty (available here) which states that Allies “may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty.”

On six occasions, between 1952 and 2009, European countries made the choice to apply for membership based on a democratic process and respect for the rule of law. NATO Allies made the unanimous choice to accept them.

NATO and EU enlargement has helped the nations of Central and Eastern Europe to tackle difficult reforms, which were required prior to accession. It has helped their citizens enjoy the benefits of democratic choice, the rule of law, and substantial economic growth. These efforts have moved Europe closer to being whole, free, and at peace than at any other time in history.

Russia also subscribed to this vision in the Founding Act. It committed to “creating in Europe a common space of security and stability, without dividing lines or spheres of influence,” and to “respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security.”

Contrary to those commitments, Russia now appears to be attempting to recreate a sphere of influence by seizing a part of Ukraine, maintaining large numbers of forces on its borders, and demanding, as Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov recently stated, that “Ukraine cannot be part of any bloc.”
Russian claims that NATO promised not to enlarge

Russian officials claim that US and German officials promised in 1990 that NATO would not expand into Eastern and Central Europe, build military infrastructure near Russia’s borders or permanently deploy troops there.

No such pledge was made, and no evidence to back up Russia’s claims has ever been produced. Should such a promise have been made by NATO as such, it would have to have been as a formal, written decision by all NATO Allies. Furthermore, the consideration of enlarging NATO came years after German reunification. This issue was not yet on the agenda when Russia claims these promises were made.

Allegations about NATO pledging not to build infrastructure close to Russia are equally inaccurate. In the Founding Act, NATO reiterated “in the current and foreseeable security environment, the Alliance will carry out its collective defence and other missions by ensuring the necessary interoperability, integration, and capability for reinforcement rather than by additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces. Accordingly, it will have to rely on adequate infrastructure commensurate with the above tasks. In this context, reinforcement may take place, when necessary, in the event of defence against a threat of aggression and missions in support of peace consistent with the United Nations Charter and the OSCE governing principles, as well as for exercises consistent with the adapted CFE Treaty, the provisions of the Vienna Document 1994 and mutually agreed transparency measures.”

NATO has indeed supported the upgrading of military infrastructure, such as air bases, in the countries which have joined the Alliance, commensurate with the requirements for reinforcement and exercises. However, the only combat forces permanently stationed on the territory of the new members are their own armed forces.

Even before the Ukraine crisis, the only routinely visible sign of Alliance forces in the new members were the NATO jets used in the Baltic States for the air policing mission. These minimal defensive assets cannot be described as substantial combat forces in the meaning of the Founding Act.

Since the crisis, NATO has taken steps to increase situational awareness and bolster the defences of our Eastern members. This, too, is entirely consistent with the Founding Act and is a direct result of Russia’s destabilizing military actions.

Finally, the Act also states, “Russia will exercise similar restraint in its conventional force deployments in Europe.” Russia’s aggression against Ukraine is a flagrant breach of this commitment, as is its unilateral suspension of compliance with the CFE Treaty.
Russian claims that NATO has ignored its concerns over missile defence

NATO has not ignored Russia’s concerns. On the contrary, the Alliance has consistently sought cooperation with Russia on missile defence. At the Lisbon Summit of 2010, NATO Heads of State and Government “decided to develop a missile defence capability to protect all NATO European populations, territory and forces, and invited Russia to cooperate with us” (declaration here).

This was reiterated at the Chicago Summit in May 2012 (here), where leaders underlined that NATO “remains committed to cooperation on missile defence in a spirit of mutual trust and reciprocity”, and stated explicitly that NATO missile defence “will not undermine Russia’s strategic deterrence capabilities”. NATO also proposed a transparency regime including the creation of two NATO-Russia joint missile-defence centres. Russia has declined these offers.

These Summit declarations are more than political promises: they define NATO’s policies. Rather than taking NATO up on cooperation, Russia has advanced arguments that ignore physics as well as NATO’s expressed policies. Independent Russian military experts have made clear that NATO’s missile defence programme could not pose any threat to Russia or degrade the effectiveness of its strategic deterrent forces. The Russian government has used missile defence as an excuse for accusations rather than an opportunity for partnership.
Russian criticism of the legitimacy of NATO military actions – Libya

In seeking to defend its illegal actions in Crimea, Russia has attacked the legitimacy of some of NATO’s operations.

This includes the NATO-led operation of 2011 to protect civilians in Libyan. The NATO-led operation was launched under the authority of two UN Security Council Resolutions (UNSCR), UNSCRs 1970 & 1973, both quoting Chapter VII of the UN Charter, and neither of which was opposed by Russia. President Putin recently accused NATO of violating the resolutions by bombing Libya. This is entirely inaccurate.

UNSCR 1973 authorized NATO “to take all necessary measures” to “protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack”, which is what NATO did, with the political and military support of regional states and members of the Arab League.

After the conflict, NATO cooperated with the UN International Commission of Inquiry on Libya, which found no breach of UNSCR 1973 or international law, concluding instead that “NATO conducted a highly precise campaign with a demonstrable determination to avoid civilian casualties.”
Russia criticism of the legitimacy of NATO military actions – Kosovo

The NATO operation related to Kosovo followed over a year of intense efforts by the UN and the Contact Group, of which Russia was a member, to bring about a peaceful solution. The UN Security Council on several occasions branded the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and the mounting number of refugees driven from their homes as a threat to international peace and security. NATO’s Operation Allied Force was launched despite the lack of Security Council authorisation to prevent the large-scale and sustained violations of human rights and the killing of civilians.

Following the air campaign, the subsequent NATO-led operation, KFOR, which initially included Russia, has been under UN mandate (UNSCR 1244), with the aim of providing a safe and secure environment for Kosovo. This led to nearly ten years of diplomacy, under UN authority, to find a political solution and to settle Kosovo’s final status, as prescribed by UNSCR 1244.

The Kosovo operation was conducted following exhaustive discussion involving the whole international community dealing with a long-running crisis. In Crimea, with no evidence of a crisis and no attempt to negotiate any form of solution, Russia bypassed the whole international community, including the UN, and simply occupied a part of another country’s territory.
Russian claims that the Ukrainian authorities are illegitimate

The current Ukrainian president and government were approved by an overwhelming majority in the Ukrainian parliament (371 votes out of 417 registered) on 27 February 2014, including members of the Party of Regions.

That parliament was elected on 28 October 2012. The Russian Foreign Ministry at the time declared that the elections were held “peacefully, without any excesses and in line with generally-accepted standards” and “confirmed Ukraine’s commitment to democracy and the rule of law.” The statement can be read in Russian here.

The parliament which Russia called legitimate then can hardly be called illegitimate now.
Russian claims that the so-called referendum in Crimea was legal

Russian officials claim that the so-called referendum in Crimea on 16 March was legal.

The referendum was illegal according to the Ukrainian constitution (available in Ukrainian here, Russian here, English here), which states that questions “of altering the territory of Ukraine are resolved exclusively by an All-Ukrainian referendum. Crimea, as part of Ukraine, has the status of an autonomous republic, but any issues about its authority have to be resolved by the Ukrainian parliament (article 134) and its constitution has to be approved by the Ukrainian parliament (article 135).

Additionally, the so-called referendum was organized in a matter of weeks by a self-proclaimed Crimean leadership that was installed by armed Russian military personnel after seizing government buildings.
Russian claims that the annexation of Crimea was justified by the opinion of the International Court of Justice on the independence of Kosovo

Russian leaders claim that the precedent for the so-called declaration of independence of Crimea was the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice on the independence of Kosovo (online here).

However, the court stated clearly that their opinion was not a precedent. The court said they had been given a “narrow and specific” question about Kosovo’s independence which would not cover the broader legal consequences of that decision.

The court highlighted circumstances in which claims for independence would be illegal. This would include if “they were, or would have been, connected with the unlawful use of force”. An example of “an unlawful use of force” would be an invasion and occupation by a neighbouring country – which is exactly what Russia has done.

Furthermore, the process leading to Kosovo’s declaration of independence spanned years and included an extensive process led by the United Nations. Russian claims ignore all of these facts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:26:43 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 07:16:21 pm
I once again ask you not to post videos from Russian government's media :rolleyes: They've yelled "wolf" so many times that not even a wolf would believe them. What's the point of trying to persuade anyone that US was trying to capture Crimea when they've already done it themselves?

Here's the link: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb&tab=core&_cview=1
But why they wanted to repair that school?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 07:27:31 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 06:01:31 pm
Fine.

(click to show/hide)
Adding some :)

Just a nice recent example of BS that comes from moscow. Lets say, there were french colloborators, who acted willingly and participated in active seeking and destruction of french underground movement during WW2. Then, out of the blue, current German government starts treating them as war heroes and offers special pensions to them. Would you consider that a neutral, friendly or offensive action by Germany towards France? Because putler just named these "fighters" heroes of WW2 from perspective of russia and now they are given these special grants to all members of special internal forces which were formed to fight resistance fighters in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine and I'm not sure if Belorussia.

I treat that as fucking offensive and aggressive behavior by an unfriendly neighboring nation.

Another example - various "unclean" products, which periodically get banned from russian markets. They are OK for EU, for US, for everyone else, but russia has SUPREME food standards - thats why the ones who can afford look for imported stuff over the local products. Also - see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAgf4MyOb9w.

IF Baltic states were not in EU and NATO - we would be fucked real nice and good by now. Just like Georgia.

You don't have to go to war to be a fucked up neighbor.

Also - that Ivani4 comment, about the need to threaten and beat ones neighbors in order to get "mutual understanding and respect"...

Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:26:43 pm
But why they wanted to repair that school?
Only in russia (c) your kids learn in school of pitiful state, some other country offers help/repairs and then the country suddenly "OMFG THEY WILL INVADE AND OCCUPY US"... Really DonNicko...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:30:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 07:27:31 pm
Adding some :)

Just a nice recent example of BS that comes from moscow. Lets say, there were french colloborators, who acted willingly and participated in active seeking and destruction of french underground movement during WW2. Then, out of the blue, current German government starts treating them as war heroes and offers special pensions to them. Would you consider that a neutral, friendly or offensive action by Germany towards France? Because putler just named these "fighters" heroes of WW2 from perspective of russia and now they are given these special grants to all members of special internal forces which were formed to fight resistance fighters in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine and I'm not sure if Belorussia.

I treat that as fucking offensive and aggressive behavior by an unfriendly neighboring nation.

Another example - various "unclean" products, which periodically get banned from russian markets. They are OK for EU, for US, for everyone else, but russia has SUPREME food standards - thats why the ones who can afford look for imported stuff over the local products. Also - see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAgf4MyOb9w.

IF Baltic states were not in EU and NATO - we would be fucked real nice and good by now. Just like Georgia.

You don't have to go to war to be a fucked up neighbor.

Also - that Ivani4 comment, about the need to threaten and beat ones neighbors in order to get "mutual understanding and respect"...
lol are you seriuos about Georgia? Nato is a military alliance not about economy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 07:30:42 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:30:12 pm
lol are you seriuos about Georgia?
Yes, I am. Are you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:32:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 07:30:42 pm
Yes, I am. Are you?
Georgia was an agressor, that was said by OSCE. I was there when they started to launch rockets. I drived a car to take wounded people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 10, 2014, 07:36:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:22:25 pm
I dont know how, but and you exactly cant say the truth. About video, it can be. And dont you think that it can be provokation? Just imagine. Even if we will take off 100000 of bulletins, it wont change the result - mathematics)
Well, they managed to catch one truck with 100.000 votes. Who says there weren't another 9 on route. Does that change mathematics? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:39:01 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 10, 2014, 07:36:05 pm
Well, they managed to catch one truck with 100.000 votes. Who says there weren't another 9 on route. Does that change mathematics? :rolleyes:
Then it should be 1000000000000001 voted blanks for sure. I said I dont know what exactly happened on referendum, but people are happy)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 10, 2014, 07:40:14 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 07:05:13 pm
SBU caught a group of armed people who were delivering 100.000 of filled bulletins for tomorrow's so called referendum. Obviously, they were filled "yes". Same scenario as in Crimea? DonNicko, tell me more how there are more people in Sevastopol since 2001 (yeah, with total population of 300k they managed to give 400+k of votes, including children?) :rolleyes:

Wow, I surprised that they managed to make sane question for referendum. Not like that Crimea bullshit questions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:42:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 06:32:02 pm
Yatsenyuk said that everybody will be freed from jail, and everybody will be punished who killed civilians. that was before revolution 23 february. Now they send army to the East, where civilians die. Will he punish himself?
(click to show/hide)
And somebody give me links, where Kiev government condemn radicals who killed civilians and beat them in Odessa and other regions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 10, 2014, 07:47:25 pm
Quote
And somebody give me links, where Kiev government condemn radicals who killed civilians and beat them in Odessa and other regions.
I don't remember them doing that. I remember them expressing their sorrow for dead and promising to investigate whole incident.

Quote
Yatsenyuk said that everybody will be freed from jail, and everybody will be punished who killed civilians. that was before revolution 23 february. Now they send army to the East, where civilians die. Will he punish himself?
So, what shoud they do instead? What would happen if army and police stayed out of it? What would pro-rus protesters do if they didn't meet any resistance? What would civil ukrainians do? Any ideas?

Quote
SBU caught a group of armed people who were delivering 100.000 of filled bulletins for tomorrow's so called referendum. Obviously, they were filled "yes". Same scenario as in Crimea? DonNicko, tell me more how there are more people in Sevastopol since 2001 (yeah, with total population of 300k they managed to give 400+k of votes, including children?) :rolleyes:
Quote
I dont know how, but and you exactly cant say the truth. About video, it can be. And dont you think that it can be provokation? Just imagine. Even if we will take off 100000 of bulletins, it wont change the result - mathematics)

No, this is certainly not Crimea scenario. In Crimea they controlled everything and therefore managed to create something that remotedly looked like referendum. In Donetsk and Luhansk region they control several towns, and in several more towns there are fights/they are partially controlled. They simply can't make referendum, that's technically impossible.
Honestly, I don't know how would population there vote in real referendum, but that's not important now, there won't be referendum tomorrow, they will just write results needed for them and then will try to create visibility of people's will as much as they can.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 10, 2014, 07:52:11 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 07:05:13 pm
SBU caught a group of armed people who were delivering 100.000 of filled bulletins for tomorrow's so called referendum. Obviously, they were filled "yes". Same scenario as in Crimea? DonNicko, tell me more how there are more people in Sevastopol since 2001 (yeah, with total population of 300k they managed to give 400+k of votes, including children?) :rolleyes:

remind me news: http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/samsung.asp

for 100k bulletens u need 200 stack of paper 500 paper sheet  in each


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 10, 2014, 07:59:21 pm
Russia related:

Russian deputy PM sends bomber tweet after Romania airspace ban (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/10/russian-deputy-pm-bomber-tweet-romania-dmitry-rogozin)


Quote from: theguardian.com
"Romania has asked Moscow for an explanation after Russia's deputy prime minister, Dmitry Rogozin, reacting to being barred from its airspace, tweeted he would return in a TU-160 strategic bomber."

)))

So this is where this stupid sense of 'humor' is coming from.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 08:02:40 pm
Quote from: serr on May 10, 2014, 07:47:25 pm
So, what shoud they do instead? What would happen if army and police stayed out of it? What would pro-rus protesters do if they didn't meet any resistance? What would civil ukrainians do? Any ideas?
The wouldn't die - the first. The second it would help to make a dialogue. Do you know the tactics - first recede (give them what they want) then atack (take what you want), it will take a lot of time, but you will not lose people and you will gain them later, because you have real political forces. That how Putin made in Chechnya. He gave them money and freedom to make the constitution the want.
Quote from: serr on May 10, 2014, 07:47:25 pm
I don't remember them doing that. I remember them expressing their sorrow for dead and promising to investigate whole incident.
How long do you think they will do it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 08:11:51 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 07:32:41 pm
Georgia was an agressor, that was said by OSCE. I was there when they started to launch rockets. I drived a car to take wounded people.
On this - I agree. After series of provocations fools started firing. Too true. Do you want me to accept a fact, that Georgia suddenly started firing on some of their citizens and russia just HAD to protect them because...reasons? That's the story you believe? That a literally country of few million suddenly, unprovoked, decided to attack... who? Was it russia? Or a bunch of would be separatists, just like russia did in Chechnya? I'm confused, please enlighten me, how was it whitewashed in putlers media?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 10, 2014, 08:17:15 pm
Quote
The wouldn't die - the first. The second it would help to make a dialogue. Do you know the tactics - first recede (give them what they want) then atack (take what you want), it will take a lot of time, but you will not lose people and you will gain them later, because you have real political forces. That how Putin made in Chechnya. He gave them money and freedom to make the constitution the want.

But if they from the very beginning demanded joining to Russia or federalisation? What should government give them?
Again, everything else was promised to them before they took weapons and certain steps for "protecting russian language" were made.

As for "there wouldn't be deaths then" - I don't agree, I think there probably would be even more deaths that way, just in different way, but we'll never know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 08:17:27 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 06:01:31 pm
Fine.

(click to show/hide)


When I read that my reaction is : thats the worst you can conjure Saruman?

Reading between the lines, I can see why Russia reacted so badly, as much as Latvia causes for those measures (and vice versa, Russia agressive diplo and Latvia reaction). This + all the historical background result in hostile relationship, ok, but I dont see how Russia is 100% guilty of it... a dispute need two sides to exist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 08:23:48 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 08:11:51 pm
On this - I agree. After series of provocations fools started firing. Too true. Do you want me to accept a fact, that Georgia suddenly started firing on some of their citizens and russia just HAD to protect them because...reasons? That's the story you believe? That a literally country of few million suddenly, unprovoked, decided to attack... who? Was it russia? Or a bunch of would be separatists, just like russia did in Chechnya? I'm confused, please enlighten me, how was it whitewashed in putlers media?
Fools dont start firing from mortars. As I said I was there, and there was a lot of rockets, that was not one foolish man started to fire, that was massive atack at once. I was wounded there in the right leg with bullet while carrying wounded people, a lot of people were dead. We protected ourselves. Seems you believe only what you want to believe as many people. And now you will say it all is made by Putin ofcource, can you say how russia provoked them, why there were so many tanks btrs and troops?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 10, 2014, 08:25:44 pm
Quote
How long do you think they will do it?
Discussing that outside of context of whole event is pointless and I was away from any news back then and learnt about those terrible events only 4 days after, so basically missed first reaction of people and could easily miss something important.
You better talk to Dave about that, that's his city, he should know better.

But well, answering your question, if I didn't miss anything and there indeed was no condemnation of Ultras(football fans) and other pro-ua radicals actions there - obviously there won't be any, too late. As for reasons - that's subject for another discussion, which I'm not ready for.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 08:34:35 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 06:01:31 pm
Recently, however, there have been concerns about Kremlin financing various political and ideological elements in Latvia, in an effort to destabilize the country... A mainly Russian party is also suspected to receive financing from the Kremlin.
Sounds so familiar here in Russia, where every opposition force is suspected of financing from abroad (US mostly). And I first time hear that the riots in Riga were actually provoked by the Russians, or under Russian influence. Similarly, many of Russians believe that the Bolotnaya square case was caused by US Department of State. So, as I see, the political attitudes are more or less the same for every nation, and these mutual accusations on in fact groundless matters will never end. Thanks for the answer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 10, 2014, 08:38:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 08:11:51 pm
On this - I agree. After series of provocations fools started firing. Too true. Do you want me to accept a fact, that Georgia suddenly started firing on some of their citizens and russia just HAD to protect them because...reasons? That's the story you believe? That a literally country of few million suddenly, unprovoked, decided to attack... who? Was it russia? Or a bunch of would be separatists, just like russia did in Chechnya? I'm confused, please enlighten me, how was it whitewashed in putlers media?

About Georgia, to make the story simple: Russians supported separatists for ages, and did a series of provocations. The idiot president Sakashvili took the bait and attacked. The whole point was to quickly take the area before Russians could send reinforcements through one of very few tunnels through the mountains.

Now, of course, the Russians were either alerted to the plan of attack (Since they basically had the  whole situation constructed in the first place), or more likely, just waiting at the other side of the tunnel, on high alert ready to strike.

If you look at the size of the areas involved, I think it's pretty clear the Russians were ready to attack, and it basically all played out as the chess players planned.

It's just another case of the usual strategy of supporting violent separatist elements, giving them reason to fight, and backing them up with "peacekeepers". In Georgia the strategic reason is access through the Caucasus. In Ukraine, the reason is support at home, protection of defence industry, and taking back Crimea/securing the black sea for all future.

Now..

Russia is a very landlocked country for its size and population. They want to secure geographical strategic access where they can:

Vladivostok (pacific/asia), Murmansk/Arkhangelsk (North passages/Arctic/Atlantic) , St.Petersburg (Baltic sea/Atlantic), Crimea (Black Sea/Mediterranean sea), Georgia (Land access to middle east), Ukraine (Land access to european borders)

Now, to protect their interests they are obviously willing to defend, secure, usurp/weaken all these points to get global possibilities.

These are the real reasons for why Russia act like they do. Their interests are to keep Ukraine a weak semi-independent, semi autonomous state. Not as a real democracy.

It's possible to both understand the Russians, and at the same time agree their government are complete assholes to other nations. Now they are fucking Ukraine bad, and there is no reason to defend what they do unless you happen to be a Russian with a strong personal conviction of RealPolitik.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 08:38:32 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 08:23:48 pm
Fools dont start firing from mortars. As I said I was there, and there was a lot of rockets, that was not one foolish man started to fire, that was massive atack at once. I was wounded there in the right leg with bullet while carrying wounded people, a lot of people were dead. We protected ourselves. Seems you believe only what you want to believe as many people. And now you will say it all is made by Putin ofcource, can you say how russia provoked them, why there were so many tanks btrs and troops?


There was many tanks etc because Russia and Georgia built up their military presence for weeks prior to the declaration of war.

They both accused each other of preparing for war, which had the effect to keep increasing military presence on both sides.
Then accusations of provocations, accusations of tortures/murders, accusations of skirmishes... then Georgia moved in.

Sorry for you Kuujis but even if that looks stupid, Georgia was the attacker in that war. Even NATO, OSCE, EU controlled agency agreed to this conclusion. Even Georgia itself. They tried to reclaim territories in a surprise attack invasion, with forces that roughly equalled those of the russians local forces. They failed, Russia won, and if they were so evil powermonger they could have completely annexed Georgia if they wanted to  :rolleyes: but they were happy just keeping South Ossetia and Abkhazia as "independant" regions.



So actually, except for accusations of "Putin planned all this since beginning", the ONLY war Russia has been a part of since 1991, was a defensive war

 ---_________________---
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 08:45:25 pm
OMG my government didn't tell me that Georgia will atack, and all peacemakers that were with me also werent informed. Did I miss the strategy of Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 09:37:22 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 08:45:25 pm
OMG my government didn't tell me that Georgia will atack, and all peacemakers that were with me also werent informed. Did I miss the strategy of Russia

Now tell me how is South Ossetia doing now? Compare it to modern Georgia and with all honour tell me that it would be worse for them if they didn't separate with help of Russia. 5.5 years passed and South Ossetia lost even trains, I don't speak about planes or at least world's acknowledge. But yes, the can buy Russian gas 1/3 price of what they would buy it being a part of Georgia, but who cares if South Ossetia is a forsaken place now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 09:40:21 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 08:45:25 pm
OMG my government didn't tell me that Georgia will atack, and all peacemakers that were with me also werent informed. Did I miss the strategy of Russia
Peacemakers... riiight :) Start a conflict, then "peacemake" and get shot... epic strategy! :P

Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 08:38:32 pm
<...>
Sorry for you Kuujis but even if that looks stupid, Georgia was the attacker in that war. Even NATO, OSCE, EU controlled agency agreed to this conclusion. Even Georgia itself. They tried to reclaim territories in a surprise attack invasion, with forces that roughly equalled those of the russians local forces. They failed, Russia won, and if they were so evil powermonger they could have completely annexed Georgia if they wanted to  :rolleyes: but they were happy just keeping South Ossetia and Abkhazia as "independant" regions.
I know it was, thats why I wrote:
Quote from: DonNicko on Today at 07:32:41 pm

    Georgia was an agressor, that was said by OSCE. I was there when they started to launch rockets. I drived a car to take wounded people.

On this - I agree. After series of provocations fools started firing.<...>

And as you have well identified - this was after provocations and other BS happening there, so taking it out of context is also quite fishy. In the end - I think Georgia had the same choice as Ukraine has now: do not give in to provocations and get "landgrabbed" (we all saw how well restraint worked in Crimea) or actually fight for ones country. And again - as I wrote couple of times already - restraint shown by current Ukraine government is laudable IMO. When you are forced to defend - you have to defend.


Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 08:38:32 pm
So actually, except for accusations of "Putin planned all this since beginning", the ONLY war Russia has been a part of since 1991, was a defensive war

 ---_________________---
And that proves or disproves what exactly?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 10, 2014, 09:53:49 pm
Nothing, I thought you disagreed with me  :P  I'm not accustomed to this  ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 09:55:31 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 09:37:22 pm
Now tell me how is South Ossetia doing now? Compare it to modern Georgia and with all honour tell me that it would be worse for them if they didn't separate with help of Russia. 5.5 years passed and South Ossetia lost even trains, I don't speak about planes or at least world's acknowledge. But yes, the can buy Russian gas 1/3 price of what they would buy it being a part of Georgia, but who cares if South Ossetia is a forsaken place now?
I don't know how Ossetia is doing now. I think you too. What about Odessa, any results?
watching video now
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 09:58:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 10, 2014, 09:40:21 pm
Peacemakers... riiight :) Start a conflict, then "peacemake" and get shot... epic strategy! :P
I didn't start this war and I saved some people and got shot. Are you laughing at me?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 10:00:11 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2014, 09:37:22 pm
Now tell me how is South Ossetia doing now? Compare it to modern Georgia and with all honour tell me that it would be worse for them if they didn't separate with help of Russia. 5.5 years passed and South Ossetia lost even trains, I don't speak about planes or at least world's acknowledge. But yes, the can buy Russian gas 1/3 price of what they would buy it being a part of Georgia, but who cares if South Ossetia is a forsaken place now?
As far as I know, people of South Ossetia has no regrets about what was happened back then. At least currently there is none of them wants to return back under the control of Georgia. Or am I wrong?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2014, 10:23:22 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 08:34:35 pm
Sounds so familiar here in Russia, where every opposition force is suspected of financing from abroad (US mostly). And I first time hear that the riots in Riga were actually provoked by the Russians, or under Russian influence. Similarly, many of Russians believe that the Bolotnaya square case was caused by US Department of State. So, as I see, the political attitudes are more or less the same for every nation, and these mutual accusations on in fact groundless matters will never end. Thanks for the answer.
Let me elaborate - the party in question is not a minor one, it is a very prominent political force. The riots started from a peaceful demonstration. The demonstration, whilst populist in nature, proceeded without incident, but as it was coming to a close, a group of people managed to escalate it to a riot. Riots are EXTREMELY uncommon in this country, it's just not in our nature to riot. Some people, that had attended the demonstration, noted that there were a lot of russian-speaking people in it, which is also uncommon for such demonstrations, and that some of the things they overheard them talking about made it seem like they are not from Latvia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 10, 2014, 10:37:11 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 10:00:11 pm
As far as I know, people of South Ossetia has no regrets about what was happened back then. At least currently there is none of them wants to return back under the control of Georgia. Or am I wrong?
(click to show/hide)

Not sure if it's indicative but:
In the wake of the 2008 South Ossetia War, Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Nauru recognised South Ossetia's independence.[10][11][12][13][14] Georgia does not recognise the existence of South Ossetia as a political entity, including most of the area in its Shida Kartli region. Georgia and a significant part of the international community consider South Ossetia to be occupied by the Russian military. South Ossetia relies heavily on military, political and financial aid from Russia.[15][16][17] Russia does not allow European Union Monitoring Mission monitors to enter South Ossetia.[18]

The war left the mostly Ossetian city of Tskhinvali heavily damaged.[71] Both during and after the war, South Ossetian authorities and irregular militia conducted a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Georgians in South Ossetia,[72] with Georgian villages around Tskhinvali being destroyed after the war had ended.[71] The war displaced 192,000 people,[73] and while many were able to return to their homes after the war, a year later around 30,000 ethnic Georgians remained displaced.[74] In an interview published in “Kommersant”, South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity said he would not allow Georgians to return.[75][76]

Though it was widely claimed by Georgian authorities that the war was started by the Russians, the independent fact-finding mission on the conflict in Georgia, led by Heidi Tagliavini, stated that it was started by Georgian shelling of the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, while open hostilities between Georgia and Russia are considered to have started on 8 August 2008. However, the report noted that all parties played a role in the buildup of tensions in the months prior, and that all sides displayed a disproportionate and unjustified use of force.[72]

Before the 2008 South Ossetia war, South Ossetia's industry consisted of 22 small factories, with a total production of 61.6 million rubles in 2006. In 2007, only 7 factories were functioning. In March, 2009, it was reported that most of the production facilities were standing idle and were in need of repairs. Even successful factories have a shortage of workers, are in debt and have a shortage of working capital.[132] One of the largest local enterprises is the Emalprovod factory, which has 130 employees.[132]Much of the economy is based around the presence of Russian military forces.[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 11:03:56 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 10, 2014, 10:37:11 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
I'm not sure what you wanted to say by this link. Yes, the city of Tskhinval was damaged, yes the South Ossetia has not their own economy ('cos pre-2008 economic model was based on the relationship with Georgia), and they live at the expense of subsidies from Russia. But still people/politicians of that land don't seem to yearn for Georgia. And there is no solution, but to force them to return into Georgia by a military force at the moment. We could talk about how it would be great if they were together, but the South Ossetian part actually just don't want that. What's there to discuss then?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 11:16:01 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 03:10:12 am
A smarter question would be: if I have to choose between a world with 1 global superpower and 2+, I would choose 2+.

The idea that two or more global superpowers is better than one is ludicrous.

First, let's just recap history a little bit. For the greatest part of the 19th and 20th centuries, the world was made up of a handful of superpowers. Great Britain, Russia, France, Austria, Germany, USA. Guess what happened during that time ? Wars. WW1 originated from the clash of two mega alliances. WW2 originated from the clash of two mega alliances. As soon as we invented nuclear bombs, actual wars went out of style, so the Cold War blocks had a cold war instead. If we look at history before that, the most peaceful periods of time in a given region happened simultaneously with the whole region being controlled by one political entity. Like the Roman Empire in Italy. Conversely, areas with geopolitical fragmentation, such as most of Europe during the middle ages, suffered constant warfare.

Second, let's take the European Union as example. If you don't like American Imperialism, you must absolutely hate what the European Union is, right ? Otherwise you are reaching maximum hypocrisy. Guess what, the EU is a major factor for stability and prosperity. The same can be said of China throughout history. When China was split, it was a shithole of rivaling kingdoms.

Third, the geopolitical argument. Isolated entities creates balance of power dynamics, and inevitably leads to hate and wars. You can't go to war without enemies, which is exactly the point of being a single geopolitical entity, ruled by laws and not by bully power.


Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 03:10:12 am
USA cant be trusted with the fate of the planet (noone is except if they manage to conquer everything :d), and I will welcome the day Russia becomes great again mostly because we need an opposition to imperialism, even if its just a second imperialism, because thats always better than a kind of shady world dictatorship.

What makes you think a politically globalised world would be a "kind of shady world dictatorship" ? Is the EU a "kind of shady european dictatorship" ? Problems arise in the EU when members think as nation-states and try to abuse the system.

Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 03:10:12 am
Then ofc I would also prefer there is no few uber-OP nations just choosing the destiny of everyone else, but its a thing of our time  :rolleyes:

So what would you prefer exactly ? Ancien Régime ? Feodalism ? Clans/Tribes ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 10, 2014, 11:26:20 pm
So essentially this whole shebang might end with a unified human race? Got to ask  :P which superpower would you prefer to win the ultimate world war?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 10, 2014, 11:34:40 pm
Quote from: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 11:03:56 pm
I'm not sure what you wanted to say by this link. Yes, the city of Tskhinval was damaged, yes the South Ossetia has not their own economy ('cos pre-2008 economic model was based on the relationship with Georgia), and they live at the expense of subsidies from Russia. But still people/politics of that land don't seem to yearn for Georgia. And there is no solution, but to force them to return into Georgia by a military force at the moment. We could talk about how it would be great if they were together, but the South Ossetian part actually just don't want that. What's there to discuss then?

You asked if they were liking it. I posted some facts (and only facts in so much as the sources are true). Didn't make a comment, but, it's 2014 almost 6 years after a 1 month(I believe) war. 6 years and they are entirely dependent on Russian Military Expenditures and Russian Aid. In addition, most of their own Manufacturing is down, while domestic food supplies have gone up massively.

Of course, I'm a very unsatisfied individual. I work 50 hours a week so that I can get ahead. Most people are content to work 40(or less) if they can get by. To each their own.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 11, 2014, 12:09:01 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 11:16:01 pm
You can't go to war without enemies, which is exactly the point of being a single geopolitical entity, ruled by laws and not by bully power.

Do you truly believe in that or just trolling?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 11, 2014, 02:05:40 am
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 10, 2014, 11:26:20 pm
So essentially this whole shebang might end with a unified human race? Got to ask  :P which superpower would you prefer to win the ultimate world war?

Nippon!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 06:37:46 am
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 08:17:27 pm
a dispute need two sides to exist.
Oh yeah, just like a rape needs two sides to exist. Butan continues to amaze with his dumber than ever statements.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2014, 07:02:47 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 10, 2014, 09:58:56 pm
I didn't start this war and I saved some people and got shot. Are you laughing at me?
Do YOU see anything funny in defending a country which sent you to get injured in a pointless conflict? SHOULD I laugh?

Quote from: Porthos on May 10, 2014, 11:03:56 pm
I'm not sure what you wanted to say by this link. Yes, the city of Tskhinval was damaged, yes the South Ossetia has not their own economy ('cos pre-2008 economic model was based on the relationship with Georgia), and they live at the expense of subsidies from Russia. But still people/politics of that land don't seem to yearn for Georgia. And there is no solution, but to force them to return into Georgia by a military force at the moment. We could talk about how it would be great if they were together, but the South Ossetian part actually just don't want that. What's there to discuss then?
Things to discuss there is how russia staged this whole "we want independence", then put their own man in the head of government and sent in "peacemakers". Note - there is a distinct difference between generally accepted and appreciated peace keepers and russian "peace makers".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 07:22:23 am
Quote from: Butan on May 10, 2014, 08:17:27 pm

When I read that my reaction is : thats the worst you can conjure Saruman?

Reading between the lines, I can see why Russia reacted so badly, as much as Latvia causes for those measures (and vice versa, Russia agressive diplo and Latvia reaction). This + all the historical background result in hostile relationship, ok, but I dont see how Russia is 100% guilty of it... a dispute need two sides to exist.

Wat? Dude that is pretty retarded. What Russia is doing in the Baltics is technically rape. I dont see us trying to destabilize Russia. All we ask is that they respect our territorial sovereignty. Which isnt the case. When it comes to the Russian goverment, they treat us like inferiors and if u think im overexagerating I assure u, I am not. Like blunt barbarians that they are, they dont try to even hide that fact. If we let the russian speaking minorities rise out of control and we wouldnt be in the NATO we would basically be the next Crimea. They call our goverments fascist and our people dogs basically on a daily basis. And they make up shitton of official reports of how hard it is for russian minorities to live here since we are super fascists and have no regard for human rights. Like official reports with 0 facts in them. All based on nothing. Since by every other report on the planet we are not facist and we have an extremely high regard for human rights. Significantly higher then Russias.

Seriuslly Butan. Tell me. How the fuck do you negotiate with these people? Cause our politicans are stumped. They look for agression and I personally think they consider us as some temporary countries that will quite soon cease to exsist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 10:28:43 am
USA is a major factor of Instability in Ukraine: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/26/moving-closer-war-paul-craig-roberts/   (by Paul Craig Roberts, American Economist)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:38:31 am
No it's not. USA has nothing to do with the instability in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 10:50:58 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 10:28:43 am
USA is a major factor of Instability in Ukraine: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/26/moving-closer-war-paul-craig-roberts/   (by Paul Craig Roberts, American Economist)

 :lol: Dat link. I loled hard. Someones been watching too much NTV.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 11, 2014, 11:22:25 am
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 10, 2014, 11:26:20 pm
So essentially this whole shebang might end with a unified human race? Got to ask  :P which superpower would you prefer to win the ultimate world war?
Israel  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 11:39:00 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 10:50:58 am
:lol: Dat link. I loled hard. Someones been watching too much NTV.

I don't know what is NTV. But it's fun to see someone laughing at reading a journalist from Wall Street journal...  :shock:
Anyway, ok, your brain seems damaged by TV, I won't judge you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 12:09:51 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 11:39:00 am
I don't know what is NTV. But it's fun to see someone laughing at reading a journalist from Wall Street journal...  :shock:
Anyway, ok, your brain seems damaged by TV, I won't judge you.

The fact that he is a Wall Street journalist doesnt prove his statements to be correct. His got no facts whatsoever to back his claims on any of this bullshit his writing. I read about this guy a bit. His literally soooooo anti-US its almost comical. He has been against just about everything US has ever done. It really is remarkable. Either he is seeking for attention or he is the one being bought with bags of money. I mean this shit his writing here is the exact stuff that the Kremlin claims. He only left out na zis, so it wouldnt be too oblivious. But other then that its remarkably similar.

Good god Tovi. How can u take this link seriuslly? Are u really this braindead.... I mean this is just....I dont even..... Fucking hollow earth theory is less laughable than this!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 11, 2014, 12:36:31 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 07:22:23 am
Wat? Dude that is pretty retarded. What Russia is doing in the Baltics is technically rape. I dont see us trying to destabilize Russia. All we ask is that they respect our territorial sovereignty. Which isnt the case. When it comes to the Russian goverment, they treat us like inferiors and if u think im overexagerating I assure u, I am not. Like blunt barbarians that they are, they dont try to even hide that fact. If we let the russian speaking minorities rise out of control and we wouldnt be in the NATO we would basically be the next Crimea. They call our goverments fascist and our people dogs basically on a daily basis. And they make up shitton of official reports of how hard it is for russian minorities to live here since we are super fascists and have no regard for human rights. Like official reports with 0 facts in them. All based on nothing. Since by every other report on the planet we are not facist and we have an extremely high regard for human rights. Significantly higher then Russias.


The smallest/weakest pro-NATO states on the border of Russia feel threatened, and are pushed to side with anything that looks like it will give them an edge against them, which feeds the hate machine from both side. An argument need two side to exist, whatever is the power balance/political agenda.
Except groundless accusations of destabilization and diplomatic insults from extremists, what has Russia done for the last 20 years? Answer, nothing. OK, you fear its the beginning, but thats not really an argument.


Quote
Seriuslly Butan. Tell me. How the fuck do you negotiate with these people? Cause our politicans are stumped. They look for agression and I personally think they consider us as some temporary countries that will quite soon cease to exsist.

Your answer is in your post and in ptx post : make laws for and not against the russian part of the population, and seek more military/commercial agreement than just NATO and Europe... But I think its already far too late for that and you gave them the stick to hit you, now its just a matter of whether they want to pick the stick up, since Ukraine situation gave precedents to using the russian population as a tool for expansion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2014, 12:41:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 11, 2014, 12:36:31 pm
what has Russia done for the last 20 years? Answer, nothing.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 11, 2014, 12:48:58 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 11, 2014, 11:22:25 am
Israel  :twisted:
I'd rather not. Israel hasn't got a great track record of treatment of non-Jewish people. I'd prefer someone more secular...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2014, 12:51:42 pm

Why would they leave equipment like an IFV behind? It doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 01:02:24 pm
(click to show/hide)

Your awnser is silly. We havent made a single law against the russian part of the population. Well atleast my country hasnt, dunno if Lithuania and Latvia has, but i havent really heard anything about some agressive laws. If we did make more pro-russian laws, it would just give more reason for russians to not learn our language and culture, which would mean that they would overrun us and eventually puppet us, cuz mother Russia welcomes its lost child. :rolleyes: This isnt just some random fear. This will definately happen. The shit Kremlin demands from us, that we should do "for the good of the russian population" is nothing short of selling out our countries.

And we have tried to seek more commercial and military agreements for the past 20 years and majority reach nowhere. Cause the Russians always propose very one sided deals or they never hold their side of the bargains. Most of our investments and buisnesses that have cooporated with Russia have almost all gone to shit cause their goverment always fucks these hard for completely silly reasons in hopes of harming us. Again, this is cause they dont consider us real countries.

It was always too late. The instant we became independent it was too late. They have always had a stick to hit us with. And if they didnt, they can just fabricate one. Cause hei, its the word of the goverments with 6 million people vs the word of the goverment with 140 million. Even if 4% of them are idiots, its quite enough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 01:15:02 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 12:09:51 pm
The fact that he is a Wall Street journalist doesnt prove his statements to be correct. His got no facts whatsoever to back his claims on any of this bullshit his writing. I read about this guy a bit. His literally soooooo anti-US its almost comical. He has been against just about everything US has ever done. It really is remarkable. Either he is seeking for attention or he is the one being bought with bags of money. I mean this shit his writing here is the exact stuff that the Kremlin claims. He only left out na zis, so it wouldnt be too oblivious. But other then that its remarkably similar.

Good god Tovi. How can u take this link seriuslly? Are u really this braindead.... I mean this is just....I dont even..... Fucking hollow earth theory is less laughable than this!

You mean that someone who criticize USA must be insane and placed in an asylum ? All the wolrd must heil USA or be wiped out by carpet bombing/ drone/ IMF restructuration/ embargo ?
And you are surprised that more and more people hate US empire with that kind of arguments ?
You can read a lot of interesting thinks in russian newspaper, or even in cuban Granma. Really. I mean, not everything, but to have another point of vue.
Open your intoxicated mind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 01:18:09 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:38:31 am
No it's not. USA has nothing to do with the instability in Ukraine.
Yes, USA didn't do nothing In Ukraine, only helped to make a revolution, but it is that small doing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 01:25:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 01:15:02 pm
You mean that someone who criticize USA must be insane and placed in an asylum ? All the wolrd must heil USA or be wiped out by carpet bombing/ drone/ IMF restructuration/ embargo ?
And you are surprised that more and more people hate US empire with that kind of arguments ?
You can read a lot of interesting thinks in russian newspaper, or even in cuban Granma. Really. I mean, not everything, but to have another point of vue.
Open your intoxicated mind.

Again Tovi. Always missing the point. I didnt mean that you braindead numbskull. I ment he overdid it. Its okay to criticize US. I even applaud it. But he is really overdoing it. He is anti-everythingUS.  I highly doubt he had solid proof and inside info on all the US actions he was against for the past decades. Im pretty sure half of his claims are bullshit so he could keep his image. Which is quite often the case with these extreme "visionaries".

And im so happy that your mind is so clear Tovi. Taking a mans word for it just because he is a Wall Street journalist...... If I ever become one, im gonna write how the moon is made of cheese. You'd probably buy it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 03:00:52 pm
I just mentioned the source because mant says my sources comes only from russian medias. But obviously I was right, the problem is not the source, the problem is when that does not fit with the main information line.
I could mention many others, like Attali in France (ex conseilor of Mitterand and a pro world-goverment) who says exactly the same about USA in Ukraine. But he's free to say it because he's not actually in charge.
Our politicians are not free. Look what happened with Snowden.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on May 11, 2014, 03:49:44 pm
Any word about cca 400 murica mercs fighting for glorious and victorious UA army of freedom?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 03:59:27 pm
Quote from: Piok on May 11, 2014, 03:49:44 pm
Any word about cca 400 murica mercs fighting for glorious and victorious UA army of freedom?
It is made by Putin :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on May 11, 2014, 04:27:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 03:59:27 pm
It is made by Putin :rolleyes:
Clone troopers are real :twisted:
Soon Putin will give Order 66 :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 05:03:44 pm
Quote from: Piok on May 11, 2014, 03:49:44 pm
Any word about cca 400 murica mercs fighting for glorious and victorious UA army of freedom?
Well it can be also provokation and lies. If I would be an evil president of Russia, I would buy Yatsenyuk, Turchinov, Timoshenko and others, make a revolution, send this people to USA ask a help to make a democracy in their country, promising them, that they can put their spies and rockets in Ukraine. When USA will spend a lot of money to make Ukarine strong and with new army, make another revolution, which will not support USA. And give many facts to the World that USA supported Fascits in Ukraine, which Yatsenyuk and others should collect for me. And at the end Russia has strong neighbor, USA is bad, Europe buys more gas and oil. :twisted:
The fact - offended USA began 3 WWar with nuclear bombs and 2/3 of people die
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 11, 2014, 05:18:36 pm
Quote from: Piok on May 11, 2014, 03:49:44 pm
Any word about cca 400 murica mercs fighting for glorious and victorious UA army of freedom?

there was a report in Bild (yellow press in germanyland) and their source was some BND (intelligence service) report which got the info from the merricans.
the same report included some infos of the violation of ukrainian air space by russian planes (also merrican sources).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on May 11, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 10, 2014, 11:16:01 pm
First, let's just recap history a little bit. For the greatest part of the 19th and 20th centuries, the world was made up of a handful of superpowers. Great Britain, Russia, France, Austria, Germany, USA. Guess what happened during that time ? Wars. WW1 originated from the clash of two mega alliances. WW2 originated from the clash of two mega alliances. As soon as we invented nuclear bombs, actual wars went out of style, so the Cold War blocks had a cold war instead.

Except wars occurred all the time during the Cold War. The two predominant superpowers did their best to meddle and interfere, leading to invasions, clandestine operations and outright coups. Both the USSR and the US were involved in actual wars.

Quote
If we look at history before that, the most peaceful periods of time in a given region happened simultaneously with the whole region being controlled by one political entity. Like the Roman Empire in Italy. Conversely, areas with geopolitical fragmentation, such as most of Europe during the middle ages, suffered constant warfare.

Rome's interior was peaceful, yes, but the frontiers were anything but. Also, it isn't as if Rome expanded benevolently, but through harsh subjugation and in some cases complete eradication (Carthage). Not to mention that the only reason Rome was so successful in expanding as they did was that they were far ahead in terms of military thinking than their neighbours.

Quote
Second, let's take the European Union as example. If you don't like American Imperialism, you must absolutely hate what the European Union is, right ? Otherwise you are reaching maximum hypocrisy. Guess what, the EU is a major factor for stability and prosperity. The same can be said of China throughout history. When China was split, it was a shithole of rivaling kingdoms.

Comparing the US empire to the EU is comparing apples and oranges. One is a superpower, while the other is a essentially a customs union that can hardly agree on things sometimes.

Quote
Third, the geopolitical argument. Isolated entities creates balance of power dynamics, and inevitably leads to hate and wars. You can't go to war without enemies, which is exactly the point of being a single geopolitical entity, ruled by laws and not by bully power.

I'm sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Quote
What makes you think a politically globalised world would be a "kind of shady world dictatorship" ? Is the EU a "kind of shady european dictatorship" ? Problems arise in the EU when members think as nation-states and try to abuse the system.

Humanity in its current level of development simply cannot exist under a one world order, a united Earth so to speak. We value individualism far too much, otherwise the whole world would be one big communist lovefest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 11, 2014, 05:57:14 pm
It's convenient for Russians to blame US/West for their situation and crappy system.

Then they wouldn't have to deal with the fact that their own system is the only reason.

(I tried and lost fighting the system in Poland, which is much milder than RU system. You can't go around everyday going mad from everything that doesn't work like it should. The only way to not break down mentally is just to accept and ignore that the system is fucked. You resign, or else you would end up a raging madman.)

A much more comfortable thought is to think the enemy brought the situation upon you. This could explain why Russians think western europe are enemies.

Fact is Soviet Union was rotten, and the mentality and parts of the system still remains.  That's the real reason Russia sucks today. There is no way for people and journalists to use normal democratic checks like transparency and functioning law to ensure they are not getting fucked.
Everyone assumes everyone cheats/steals/lies, and so (almost) everyone does. Life sucks, so blame the enemy, feel a bit better about yourself.

I supported Maidan, because it was a chance for Ukraine to get out of Russias shadow, and begin a new road to real change. The western Ukrainians, and those who traveled have seen with their own eyes how much better the west works (Yes, even new western countries like poland) , and wants the same for themselves. The ones in the east haven't seen for themselves, only the TV set with Russian propaganda. I do understand why they think strongman Putin is vastly better than the corrupt and weak politicians of Ukraine.

Russia needs to get their hands off Ukraine. It's a sovereign nation, and can and should decide its own fate. If it chooses the west, it's because Russia has failed, nothing else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 07:02:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 01:18:09 pm
Yes, USA didn't do nothing In Ukraine, only helped to make a revolution, but it is that small doing.
Any proof?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2014, 07:13:20 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 07:02:35 pm
Any proof?
Well... there was this one school, which USA wanted to renovate in Crimea... that enough? :rolleyes:
</irony>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 07:17:56 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 07:02:35 pm
Any proof?
Victoria Nuland on Maidan. Why?
(click to show/hide)
USA invested 5 billion dollars to Ukraine democracy
(click to show/hide)
John Maccein on Maidan.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 07:59:08 pm
So... no?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 08:01:28 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 07:59:08 pm
So... no?
So... why no?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 08:11:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 08:01:28 pm
So... why no?
What exactly do you think those videos prove? That Americans help Ukraine? Well, yes. And?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2014, 08:12:55 pm
Still surprises me how people are stuck at Maidan just to prove their irrelevant points with all the eastern problems going on,
that's because of USA influence too, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 08:14:03 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 08:11:01 pm
What exactly do you think those videos prove? That Americans help Ukraine? Well, yes. And?
So they helped them to make a revolution, that's all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 11, 2014, 08:15:33 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 08:33:53 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 08:14:03 pm
So they helped them to make a revolution, that's all.
And what proof of this do you have? Do you mean to say that USA showed that the Western world isn't as fucked up and evil as Russia so Ukrainians rebelled against their evil slavemasters?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 08:50:49 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 08:33:53 pm
And what proof of this do you have? Do you mean to say that USA showed that the Western world isn't as fucked up and evil as Russia so Ukrainians rebelled against their evil slavemasters?
I don't say western world I said USA, let me remind you what USA did, don't say about Russia, because Russia did bad things too but:
1) Revolution in Serbia - Kosovo
2) atack to Iraq
3) Tried to atack Iran - stopped by Russia
4) Revolution in Libia - all frozen monney went to USA
5) Tried to make revolution in Syria - stopped by Russia
6) Helped Georgia - stopped by Russia
7) Revolution in Ukraine - gave money and political influence
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 08:55:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 08:50:49 pm
I don't say western world I said USA, let me remind you what USA did, don't say about Russia, because Russia did bad things too but:
1) Revolution in Serbia - Kosovo
2) atack to Iraq
3) Tried to atack Iran - stopped by Russia
4) Revolution in Libia - all frozen monney went to USA
5) Tried to make revolution in Syria - stopped by Russia
6) Helped Georgia - stopped by Russia
7) Revolution in Ukraine - gave money and political influence
USA is part of the western world. Where are you getting your information from? Russian media? That's about the only explanation for the utter stupidity you're spewing.

Let's start with your last point first, since it's what you were claiming. USA made the revolution happen by giving money to Ukraine? What the fuck are you on? So they're helping Ukrainian economy and building schools = revolution? Lulz.

As for the rest, you are deluded. Russia hasn't stopped USA from doing anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 09:10:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 08:55:39 pm
USA is part of the western world. Where are you getting your information from? Russian media? That's about the only explanation for the utter stupidity you're spewing.

Let's start with your last point first, since it's what you were claiming. USA made the revolution happen by giving money to Ukraine? What the fuck are you on? So they're helping Ukrainian economy and building schools = revolution? Lulz.

As for the rest, you are deluded. Russia hasn't stopped USA from doing anything.
lol man, why do you think the want to help Ukraine? Because they just like to help people? Sorry, but I'm not so naive. Why do you think USA recognized the authorities legitimate so fast after revolution without any investigation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 09:15:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 09:10:24 pm
lol man, why do you think the want to help Ukraine? Because they just like to help people? Sorry, but I'm not so naive. Why do you think USA recognized the authorities legitimate so fast after revolution without any investigation?
Because it's in their interest that Ukraine is a democratic state, not a puppet of Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 09:17:05 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 09:15:19 pm
Because it's in their interest that Ukraine is a democratic state, not a puppet of Russia.
Can you say why do you think that Ukraine was a puppet of Russia any facts?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 09:35:44 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 09:37:11 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 09:35:44 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
And what do you want to say by that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 09:57:54 pm
I think it speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 11, 2014, 10:00:11 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 09:37:11 pm
And what do you want to say by that?

Yanukovych has been widely criticized for "massive" corruption and cronyism.[175][177][178][179][180]

By January 2013, more than half of the ministers appointed by Yanukovych were either born in the Donbas region or made some crucial part of their careers there, and Yanukovych has been accused of "regional cronyism" for his staffing of police, judiciary, and tax services "all over Ukraine" with "Donbas people".[181] Over 46% of the budget subventions for social and economic development was allotted to the Donbas region's Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast administrations – 0.62 billion UAH ($76.2 million) versus 0.71 billion UAH ($87.5 million) for the rest of the country.[182]

On 4 March 2014, Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, displayed a photocopy of a letter allegedly signed by Victor Yanukovich on 1 March 2014. In the letter Yanukovich requested Russian military intervention in Ukraine[204] to "restore law and order".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:01:03 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 09:57:54 pm
I think it speaks for itself.
No, it don't. Rissia offered better conditions, and Yanukovich chose them, if you want to know people in Russia don't like him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 10:02:28 pm
Quote
On 4 March 2014, Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, displayed a photocopy of a letter allegedly signed by Victor Yanukovich on 1 March 2014. In the letter Yanukovich requested Russian military intervention in Ukraine[204] to "restore law and order".

That would make a russian military intervention legit. Because elections did not occured yet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:05:51 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 11, 2014, 10:00:11 pm
Yanukovych has been widely criticized for "massive" corruption and cronyism.[175][177][178][179][180]

By January 2013, more than half of the ministers appointed by Yanukovych were either born in the Donbas region or made some crucial part of their careers there, and Yanukovych has been accused of "regional cronyism" for his staffing of police, judiciary, and tax services "all over Ukraine" with "Donbas people".[181] Over 46% of the budget subventions for social and economic development was allotted to the Donbas region's Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast administrations – 0.62 billion UAH ($76.2 million) versus 0.71 billion UAH ($87.5 million) for the rest of the country.[182]

On 4 March 2014, Russia's Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, displayed a photocopy of a letter allegedly signed by Victor Yanukovich on 1 March 2014. In the letter Yanukovich requested Russian military intervention in Ukraine[204] to "restore law and order".
And what Russia did here, can't understand. The question was why Xant thinks that Ukraine was Russian puppet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 11, 2014, 10:07:17 pm
Intervened militarily?  :lol:

Edit: sorry doesn't answer your question
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:11:36 pm
In DonNicko's world, every revolution ever is started by Americans and stopped by Russians. Meanwhile, people who are massively corrupt and super pro-Russia and flee to Russia and are in every conceivable way clearly a Russian puppet... have nothing to do with Russia, of course. And let's not forget the evil Americans helping Ukraine build schools. How dare they! The kids might even learn real history, not Russian propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:16:19 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:11:36 pm
In DonNicko's world, every revolution ever is started by Americans and stopped by Russians. Meanwhile, people who are massively corrupt and super pro-Russia and flee to Russia and are in every conceivable way clearly a Russian puppet... have nothing to do with Russia, of course. And let's not forget the evil Americans helping Ukraine build schools. How dare they! The kids might even learn real history, not Russian propaganda.
Man, I said that Russia made bad things too.
One more question, where did get that I think that every revolution is started by Americans and stopped by Russians?
And answer my previous question, please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 11, 2014, 10:19:14 pm
Essentially, by fleeing to Russia and allowing Russia to invade Ukraine, he has done what Russia intended him to do, i.e. been manipulated by Russia, so you could paraphrase that as him being their puppet. I think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:25:19 pm
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 11, 2014, 10:19:14 pm
Essentially, by fleeing to Russia and allowing Russia to invade Ukraine, he has done what Russia intended him to do, i.e. been manipulated by Russia, so you could paraphrase that as him being their puppet. I think.
No, it was after revolution, and Russia didn't send army, except maybe Crimea to defend Sevastopol. And where he can flee? Other countries won't let him enter. What facts that Ukraine was puppet of Russia before revolution?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:37:56 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:16:19 pm
Man, I said that Russia made bad things too.
One more question, where did get that I think that every revolution is started by Americans and stopped by Russians?
And answer my previous question, please.
You never answered even my first question.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:44:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:37:56 pm
You never answered even my first question.
I gave you prooves, that USA helped to make a revolution, and why then director of CIA visitted Ukraine? And you didnt give any. You are watching TV and saying what you heard, yes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:51:29 pm
No, you didn't show any proof that USA helped to make a revolution. In Soviet Russia it might be illegal and inciting revolution to build schools (makes sense actually) but in the western world, aka the "not a shithole" part of the world, it's nothing menacing or nasty.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:57:29 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:51:29 pm
No, you didn't show any proof that USA helped to make a revolution. In Soviet Russia it might be illegal and inciting revolution to build schools (makes sense actually) but in the western world, aka the "not a shithole" part of the world, it's nothing menacing or nasty.
First of all Penatgon is military organization wanted to restore the school on the highest ground in Sevastopol? And Why american politics visitted Maidan so often? video is given. Why they spent 5 billion dollars into Ukraine. That's not prooves? I don't say that they sent special forces to make a revolution, I said that theu helped politically and with money. Is it so hard to understand? Now answer my questions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 11, 2014, 10:58:36 pm

First tank - balls of steel, it almost fucking flipped :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 11:01:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 10:57:29 pm
First of all Penatgon is military organization wanted to restore the school on the highest ground in Sevastopol? And Why american politics visitted Maidan so often? video is given. Why they spent 5 billion dollars into Ukraine. That's not prooves? I don't say that they sent special forces to make a revolution, I said that theu helped politically and with money. Is it so hard to understand? Now answer my questions.
Outside Soviet Russia, politicians visit other countries all the times. This is also normal in countries that are not shitholes like Russia. Why is Germany giving so much money to Greece? Are they building up a revolution????
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 11:05:36 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 11:01:38 pm
Outside Soviet Russia, politicians visit other countries all the times. This is also normal in countries that are not shitholes like Russia. Why is Germany giving so much money to Greece? Are they building up a revolution????
OMG so hardunderstanding, where do you see Soviet Russia? Our politics also visits many countries. American politics visitted Maidan not legit authorities of this country. Answer my questions, please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 11:08:24 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 11:05:36 pm
OMG so hardunderstanding, where do you see Soviet Russia? Our politics also visits many countries. American politics visitted Maidan not legit authorities of this country. Answer my questions, please.
I can't answer your questions when I don't understand what you're trying to say in your broken English. Maybe Americans should've built schools in Russia too? Then we wouldn't have this problem.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 11:11:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 10:51:29 pm
No, you didn't show any proof that USA helped to make a revolution. In Soviet Russia it might be illegal and inciting revolution to build schools (makes sense actually) but in the western world, aka the "not a shithole" part of the world, it's nothing menacing or nasty.

We don't need really proof (what kind of "proof" exactly ? A bill with the White House stamp?), because Victoria Nuland admited it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 11:13:40 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 11:08:24 pm
I can't answer your questions when I don't understand what you're trying to say in your broken English. Maybe Americans should've built schools in Russia too? Then we wouldn't have this problem.
I asked why Pentagon wanted to build the school.
Really you can't understand what I have wrote in my questions?
1) Why do you think that Ukraine is puppet of Russia?
2) Where did you get that I think that americans started every revolution and stopped by russians?
You can't understand my questions?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2014, 11:16:24 pm
The questions have already been answered.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 11:18:52 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2014, 11:16:24 pm
The questions have already been answered.
If they answered can you please quote them, I missed them, sorry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2014, 11:52:39 pm
Some videos



Looks like scare factor of gunfire doesn't work on these people.

Thin line between bold and stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 12, 2014, 12:04:10 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 11, 2014, 11:11:16 pm
We don't need really proof (what kind of "proof" exactly ? A bill with the White House stamp?), because Victoria Nuland admited it.

wasn´t  the wording "to support/improve the democracy effort in ukraine"?
so was just in the good old times when the west supported the guys who wanted to play after their rules and the others helped their own pals.

the school thing looks more like a hearts and minds attempt.
they help the common people with some issues and get some karma points for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 12:28:56 am
Quote from: Swaggart on May 11, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
Except wars occurred all the time during the Cold War. The two predominant superpowers did their best to meddle and interfere, leading to invasions, clandestine operations and outright coups. Both the USSR and the US were involved in actual wars.

That's not really my main point. But basically my wording wasn't all that great. By "actual wars" I meant direct war ala WW1. That obviously didn't happen between US and Russia, only proxy wars happened.

Quote from: Swaggart on May 11, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
Rome's interior was peaceful, yes, but the frontiers were anything but. Also, it isn't as if Rome expanded benevolently, but through harsh subjugation and in some cases complete eradication (Carthage). Not to mention that the only reason Rome was so successful in expanding as they did was that they were far ahead in terms of military thinking than their neighbours.

That doesn't change the fact that: 1) the border regions weren't peaceful before anyway 2) the interior that was now peaceful, wasn't before.

Quote from: Swaggart on May 11, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
Comparing the US empire to the EU is comparing apples and oranges. One is a superpower, while the other is a essentially a customs union that can hardly agree on things sometimes.

No it's really not. The EU is a group of ethnically/culturally diverse states that surrender part of their national sovereignty to a higher authority. That's literally the definition of an empire. A decentralised empire, but an empire nonetheless.

Quote from: Swaggart on May 11, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
Humanity in its current level of development simply cannot exist under a one world order, a united Earth so to speak. We value individualism far too much, otherwise the whole world would be one big communist lovefest.

I believe it's the opposite. Individualism is precisely the opposite of gregarian behavior, which is the basis of nationalism, religious fanaticism, hooliganism and so on. If everybody acted strictly for personal interest, you wouldn't have soldiers ready to sacrifice themselves for the motherland, because that's against personal interest. The only reason the average joe can be convinced to fight in wars and kill other people isn't rational, it's romantic in essence. You might argue that mercenaries fight wars for personal gain. Yes, but they do not actually want to kill or win. They just want easy money and surviving. Hence they can just reach an agreement. Case in point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condottieri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zagonara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Molinella.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 12, 2014, 02:19:30 am
Nothing romantic in that, they just don't know better. Love for things that aren't living beings is something that is artificially implanted in our psyche. You don't love your nation as 3 year old but you have feelings for little animals and your baby brother or sister.

Soldiers are people who depend on each other to survive and that is the nature of strong bond between them. They are manipulated by system to act like they do.

Your grand unification scheme will bring more negative than you can imagine. It simply isn't natural way. On top of it, pretty much sounds like christian mumbo jumbo about heaven, angel order etc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 03:47:38 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2014, 11:05:36 pm
OMG so hardunderstanding, where do you see Soviet Russia? Our politics also visits many countries. American politics visitted Maidan not legit authorities of this country. Answer my questions, please.

You must be new to this forum  :D  Xant is one of the guy you dont want to waste time arguing with; makes any argument hell on earth and love reminding everyone how he is smart compared to those who disagree with him in the slightest.


Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2014, 01:02:24 pm
(click to show/hide)
Your awnser is silly. We havent made a single law against the russian part of the population. Well atleast my country hasnt, dunno if Lithuania and Latvia has, but i havent really heard anything about some agressive laws.

I though you lived in the same place Ptx spoke of. The "against" part you can ignore and just take it as "treat russian population better". It would at least give less angle of attack for Russia, if the baltic states are truely only "victims" and never wanted to piss them at anytime in the last decades  :wink:
Thats just an example of course...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2014, 07:13:28 am
What else can we be, but victims. Look at the world map for starters. We freaking build schools and really do a lot for the russian minorities. In return Kremlin calls us assholes for not completely bowing down to the supreme eastern masterrace. What could we possibly gain by pissing off Russia? I mean seriusly... Our relations did slightly improve back when Medvedev was president, but when Putin came it all crashed again. The only way our relations would ever be even close to warm is if Russias corrupt goverment gets replaced. But I doubt thats ever going to happen. They are looking for enemies on purpose. And what better enemies then 3 tiny ex-USSR NATO UN nations. I mean u can call us so many bad things and theres really no consequence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 07:55:31 am
Quote from: Christo on May 11, 2014, 11:52:39 pm

Looks like scare factor of gunfire doesn't work on these people.

Thin line between bold and stupid.
They are simply in despair. This retaliatory opertion by Kiev made this people go to referendum. Apperance on sites never was so high before.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
and many others video
I don't want to blame anyone. But Kiev authorities said on their main TV that there was 0% appearance.
(click to show/hide)
Well, choose one who lies, who not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2014, 08:28:04 am
It truly does amaze me how Russians can be so twisted. I swear, they can look at a video of the first moon landing and claim it was Putin stopping an alien invasion. And they'll believe it.

I'm impressed by the level of brainwashing Putin's government has managed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 08:35:49 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 07:55:31 am
They are simply in despair. This retaliatory opertion by Kiev made this people go to referendum. Apperance on sites never was so high before.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
and many others video
I don't want to blame anyone. But Kiev authorities said on their main TV that there was 0% appearance.
(click to show/hide)
Well, choose one who lies, who not.
Let the shit gates open... This could be called referendum only in russia (c). A body of 1000 or even 10000 is NOT impressive, when you talk abou several milions, who should vote. Hell, there was a BUNCH of towns, which did not have ANY voting happening. And the "voting" - zero control for voting once, a truck with 100k voted VOTED cought prior to the elections... You fucking kidding me?  :|

Please, correlate this http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/ to the results of your "referendum"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 08:37:45 am
Quote from: Xant on May 12, 2014, 08:28:04 am
It truly does amaze me how Russians can be so twisted. I swear, they can look at a video of the first moon landing and claim it was Putin stopping an alien invasion. And they'll believe it.

I'm impressed by the level of brainwashing Putin's government has managed.
Xant how old are? seems about 10-12 years old
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 08:46:28 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 08:35:49 am
Let the shit gates open... This could be called referendum only in russia (c). A body of 1000 or even 10000 is NOT impressive, when you talk abou several milions, who should vote. Hell, there was a BUNCH of towns, which did not have ANY voting happening. And the "voting" - zero control for voting once, a truck with 100k voted VOTED cought prior to the elections... You fucking kidding me?  :|

Please, correlate this http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/ to the results of your "referendum"?
Yes I kidding you, how did you know that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 08:55:17 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 08:46:28 am
Yes I kidding you, how did you know that?
Because you cant answer a single one question :) Like Vovka usually... Except his jokes are funneh sometimes and he can be serious (I think there were couple of posts from him on a serious note in this thread, which were really reasonable to my suprise  :rolleyes: )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 08:59:02 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 08:55:17 am
Because you cant answer a single one question :) Like Vovka usually... Except his jokes are funneh sometimes and he can be serious (I think there were couple of posts from him on a serious note in this thread, which were really reasonable to my suprise  :rolleyes: )
I gonna kidding you, how did they do that research? Maybe they did secret referendum?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 09:05:00 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 08:59:02 am
I gonna kidding you, how did they do that research? Maybe they did secret referendum?
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/methods-in-detail/

Give or take 10%, barely a thing changes. They do not correlate to a fishy "only in russia(c)" style referendum. That is why I call BS on the said referendum and I call BS on "majority wants to be independent/in russia" statements.

And you still did not answer my question.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 09:13:46 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 09:05:00 am
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/methods-in-detail/

Give or take 10%, barely a thing changes. They do not correlate to a fishy "only in russia(c)" style referendum. That is why I call BS on the said referendum and I call BS on "majority wants to be independent/in russia" statements.

And you still did not answer my question.
I can't say why there is a difference between Referendum and PEW research. One of them lies :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 09:25:42 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 09:13:46 am
I can't say why there is a difference between Referendum and PEW research. One of them lies :lol:
Lets see... a fishy referendum, in PART of the region in question, whith VERY questionable verification of "one-vote-per-person" + intercepted VOTED bulletins in 100k amounts... Vs a reasonable looking oppinion pool, which WAS checked and trusted by a number of news agencies (mind you, I know they are far from the "single source of truth", but comparing to the "separatists" or putlers media - they still SHINE :) ). I do not know what I would choose...

Hmm...

So difficult. Much pain. Stronk choosing problem. Dillema. Complicated.

Except its not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 12, 2014, 09:32:02 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 08:55:17 am
Because you cant answer a single one question :) Like Vovka usually... Except his jokes are funneh sometimes and he can be serious (I think there were couple of posts from him on a serious note in this thread, which were really reasonable to my suprise  :rolleyes: )
I would not allow myself to write stupid jokes on any professional forum where written by people who dedicated their lives to the topic subject. But when nerds on game forum in trash section talk about world politics and post  as an argument links to wikipedia, youtube videos, and links to articles for $ 1 per thousand characters, or people who have visited one day in Russia in 90-99 claim what they known all about russia and russian ppls, why not post some jokes about ur fat mom?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 09:32:44 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 09:25:42 am
Lets see... a fishy referendum, in PART of the region in question, whith VERY questionable verification of "one-vote-per-person" + intercepted VOTED bulletins in 100k amounts... Vs a reasonable looking oppinion pool, which WAS checked and trusted by a number of news agencies (mind you, I know they are far from the "single source of truth", but comparing to the "separatists" or putlers media - they still SHINE :) ). I do not know what I would choose...

Hmm...

So difficult. Much pain. Stronk choosing problem. Dillema. Complicated.

Except its not.
It's your opinion, that's OK. I don't pretend on the full truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 10:08:04 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 12, 2014, 09:32:02 am
I would not allow myself to write stupid jokes on any professional forum where written by people who dedicated their lives to the topic subject. But when nerds on game forum in trash section talk about world politics and post  as an argument links to wikipedia, youtube videos, and links to articles for $ 1 per thousand characters, or people who have visited one day in Russia in 90-99 claim what they known all about russia and russian ppls, why not post some jokes about ur fat mom?  :P
Like... about he/she/it being so fat, he/she/it could go selling shade in hot summer day in Sevastopol (you know, to make it relevant ;) )?

Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 09:32:44 am
It's your opinion, that's OK. I don't pretend on the full truth.
Sooo... whats your oppinion? That the referendum in given circumstances and with zero transparency is a legitimate and reasonable expression of peoples will? Or the will of the guys counting the votes (in secrecy BTW, with no observers allowed in)? :shock:
Here is a funny story for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_%281946%29 , relevant given the opacity of vote counting :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2014, 10:20:16 am
Just to make a few simple points about the referendum:

1.) They didn't have any lists with voters on it. They simply wrote down who voted - well, on a piece of paper with a pen, not some fancy network.
2.) There are several videos showing people doing 3-4 votes as one person. Nobody told them to stop. They just shove the paper in the see-through(!) voting box, just a few more than just 1 for good measure.
3.) Huge areas with population were without even one box. Where "normally" and before were 100 voting stations, there were 10.
4.) Representative pre-vote casts showed 70% (sometimes more, sometimes less) for a united Ukraine - now it's even close to 90% against it.

The first 3 are fixed. No use for a discussion. They are "THE THRUTH". No point in denying or discussing them really.

But yea, totally worth the time and effort, this referendum. It's basically build on the foundations of the basic principles of democracy. Good job, awesome... :lol:

Don't get me started on missing observers and people with AKs "guarding" the voting stations...

Quote from: Christo on May 11, 2014, 11:52:39 pm
Looks like scare factor of gunfire doesn't work on these people.

Thin line between bold and stupid.
Tbh, sometimes I think that in those situations it's pure Darwin working his magic. How stupid or more likely drunk do you have to be, to grab and hold some "soldier" at his weapon?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2014, 11:09:08 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 08:37:45 am
Xant how old are? seems about 10-12 years old
Oh my god! The age insult! I am offended to my very core, and my rebuttal follows: ur 8-9 yers old!!!!!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 11:10:04 am
Quote from: Leshma on May 12, 2014, 02:19:30 am
Nothing romantic in that, they just don't know better. Love for things that aren't living beings is something that is artificially implanted in our psyche. You don't love your nation as 3 year old but you have feelings for little animals and your baby brother or sister.

Soldiers are people who depend on each other to survive and that is the nature of strong bond between them. They are manipulated by system to act like they do.

Your grand unification scheme will bring more negative than you can imagine. It simply isn't natural way. On top of it, pretty much sounds like christian mumbo jumbo about heaven, angel order etc.

The natural way we have been evolving in for tens of thousands of years is tribal. That's obviously never going to happen ever again, so we have to think about something that can work. My point is, there has been nothing natural about the political structure of anywhere during the last 2000 years or so, depending on the region.

Feodalism and nationalism obviously don't work, so we might as well keep searching. Also I don't see how you can connect that to christian mumbo jumbo, the idea is purely humanist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2014, 11:49:50 am
Why should we search for something else. My life works as it is. I am not some politician with the power to change things. Neither are most politicians, I guess.
Humans will always adapt to the circumstances presented. There is no "fight the system", simply cuz the system will always win, will always prevail, in one form or another. But the form itself barely has any influence nowadays. At least in the... well, how to call them... Western countries?
In Germany I can do whatever I like or I am capable of, more like it. The system gives everyone a chance, no matter which background the person comes from. Granted, some have it harder than others but that has always been that way and probably it won't ever change. Other countries might do a better job to grant everyone chances (looking at you Scandinavia) but that is not my reality.

My point is that humans adapt to the reality they live in and try to do the best in it's limitations. The only limiting is the system itself but that system isn't really depending on the political but the social system. When you're satisfied with your very own social situation and those close to you, there wouldn't be any need to change things, right?
All those reasons to change for "the greater good" are actually just reasons like "I am not satisfied with my own situation!".
Whatever provides 99% of the people with satisfaction will work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 11:58:36 am
Quote from: Molly on May 12, 2014, 11:49:50 am
Why should we search for something else. My life works as it is. I am not some politician with the power to change things. Neither are most politicians, I guess.
Humans will always adapt to the circumstances presented. There is no "fight the system", simply cuz the system will always win, will always prevail, in one form or another. But the form itself barely has any influence nowadays. At least in the... well, how to call them... Western countries?
In Germany I can do whatever I like or I am capable of, more like it. The system gives everyone a chance, no matter which background the person comes from. Granted, some have it harder than others but that has always been that way and probably it won't ever change. Other countries might do a better job to grant everyone chances (looking at you Scandinavia) but that is not my reality.

My point is that humans adapt to the reality they live in and try to do the best in it's limitations. The only limiting is the system itself but that system isn't really depending on the political but the social system. When you're satisfied with your very own social situation and those close to you, there wouldn't be any need to change things, right?
All those reasons to change for "the greater good" are actually just reasons like "I am not satisfied with my own situation!".
Whatever provides 99% of the people with satisfaction will work.

I believe the world is evolving towards a globalised political structure gradually. We will reach it eventually as long as prosperity keeps on increasing, so there's no need in forcing things forward. The problem is that some people are resisting this change out of nationalism, fanaticism and xenophobia in general.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2014, 12:23:15 pm
I kinda started typing and got lost, hence the spoiler.
Why is someone a Nationalist? Because he isn't satisfied with his own position/fate/prosperity/life. Why is Panos saying that he wants all the "Aliens" out of Greece? Not because he wants to save Greece or all Greeks. I call bullshit on that one. I believe he just wants them out in fear of not getting enough for himself.
Guess the only way to get your global political system is by showing the others that this global system is providing them with "more" than any other system or ideology. And when they have enough, they still want more but not as much as before. But the actual political system is secondary. First of all, people want more! :)


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 12:41:25 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 12, 2014, 03:47:38 am
I though you lived in the same place Ptx spoke of. The "against" part you can ignore and just take it as "treat russian population better". It would at least give less angle of attack for Russia, if the baltic states are truely only "victims" and never wanted to piss them at anytime in the last decades  :wink:
Thats just an example of course...
And here we see Butan - probably can barely point out the place on a map, has no knowledge whatsoever of the events and the situation there, yet goes on to oppose what has been said... purely for the sake of being on the opposition.

Truly, someone worth wasting time arguing with.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 12:42:06 pm
I used the word prosperity and not growth for a reason. Even though e.g. China has a very high growth, Chinese people are not very prosperous yet. Their quality of life isn't great. The goal of the economy is to provide people with products, and those products improve the quality of their life, that's all. There is no unlimited growth, simply because can we can't have unlimited people on the planet.

Your bread and games argument is absolutely true. People can be okay with any kind of political authority, even if it's Pinochet, as long as their needs are satisfied. The moment they get hungry though, instability rises and all hell breaks loose. My point is that nation-states are not well-equipped at all to deal with current world issues because they are too small and can rarely organize actions together. Hence yes, the nation-state structure if inefficient and does not bring as much prosperity as could be possible otherwise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 12:44:55 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 12, 2014, 07:13:28 am
What else can we be, but victims. Look at the world map for starters.

Thats the main fallacy I wanted to show: Russia is big on the map so its evil? Baltic states are small so they are good? No.



Quote from: Molly on May 12, 2014, 12:23:15 pm
Why is someone a Nationalist? Because he isn't satisfied with his own position/fate/prosperity/life.

Thats a big shortcut.


Quote from: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 12:41:25 pm
And here we see Butan - probably can barely point out the place on a map, has no knowledge whatsoever of the events and the situation there, yet goes on to oppose what has been said...

I can place the baltic states on the map but until you tell me where you are I cant tell which one you live in  :wink:
My knowledge on the situation limits to what you have said, and I found it a terribly poor base of argument toward justifying your hate toward Russia.
That could be because I'm not living here, but also because I'm not biased.
If you have more arguments please do tell me, and if you dont care about what I think about it you should still deal with the fact that I am a contributor of this thread, so I discuss about what others says even if you dont seem to like it.


Quote from: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 12:41:25 pm
Protip: being constantly contrarian doesn't really make you look informed, except in the company of likewise stupid people.

Kuujinite intensifies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 12:51:44 pm
I don't think Butan has an opinion. He just reads whatever you type and argues the opposite.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 12:53:23 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 12:51:44 pm
I don't think Butan has an opinion. He just reads whatever you type and argues the opposite.
That's what i figured, can't believe i actually wasted my time arguing some pages back.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 12, 2014, 12:53:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 12, 2014, 12:44:55 pm
Thats the main fallacy I wanted to show: Russia is big on the map so its evil? Baltic states are small so they are good? No.

Butan.. fallacy

Fallacy.. Butan.

Warning.. system overload...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 01:09:28 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 12:51:44 pm
I don't think Butan has an opinion. He just reads whatever you type and argues the opposite.

I think you meant: I listen to what people say, then people listen to what I say, in a discussion?

Your version sounds like failure by omission.
Anyway, I think I've been sent all the insults possible in this thread, and it is still alive and I'm still there, I feel like it just became the norm and that we can still discuss which is the main goal.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2014, 01:26:44 pm
I think Butan's main problem is his lack of insight into basic human behaviour.

When a region has been ruled/oppressed by a huge neighbour, its culture and language fought on a daily basis, over decades, it's hardly surprising that the region's population isn't very fond of that neighbour. And instead of admitting its failures, said neighbour still bullies the region because a cultural minority of the former ruler/oppressor which isn't willing to adapt nor move. Even threatening the region with the use of force in constant sub-text messages.

And you, Butan, keep talking about people being biased and not understandable resentments towards that neighbour? lmao :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 01:28:24 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 12, 2014, 01:09:28 pm
I think you meant: I listen to what people say, then people listen to what I say, in a discussion?

Your version sounds like failure by omission.
Anyway, I think I've been sent all the insults possible in this thread, and it is still alive and I'm still there, I feel like it just became the norm and that we can still discuss which is the main goal.

My point is that arguing with you in this thread is not interesting. You are not trying to bring a point. You are merely arguing the same thing as others do, except reversed. In more accurate words, the entropic content of what you are saying is the same as what others are saying. You are bringing nothing to the discussion, and especially not a fresh point of view. The position of ptx in this debate is like moving his right hand in front of a mirror and hearing the mirror argue against his choice of moving the right hand, as he should move his left hand like the mirror does.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 02:00:31 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 12:53:23 pm
That's what i figured, can't believe i actually wasted my time arguing some pages back.
I was FIRST :P :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 12, 2014, 02:05:08 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 11:10:04 am
The natural way we have been evolving in for tens of thousands of years is tribal. That's obviously never going to happen ever again, so we have to think about something that can work. My point is, there has been nothing natural about the political structure of anywhere during the last 2000 years or so, depending on the region.

Feodalism and nationalism obviously don't work, so we might as well keep searching. Also I don't see how you can connect that to christian mumbo jumbo, the idea is purely humanist.

I'm not talking about human nature. When I say it's not natural to seek unification in any way or form, I mean it as not according to the way universe works. Our whole perception of the world revolves around relations between two or more objects and you want to sell me theory how we should work toward one language, one nation, one everything. Also stuff you dislike that much, such as destruction are perfectly natural things. Destruction is in balance with creation. Trying to curb that in favor of our own ideas how things should work out will never yield desirable results. As an intellegent person and highly educated you should really know better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on May 12, 2014, 02:11:04 pm
Unification will be achieved once humanity is presented with an outside threat. We will unite under one banner, as a singular war machine under one God Empreror of Mankind to purge the Mutants, Aliens and Heretics and ensure the continuing dominance of our magnificent species.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 02:20:16 pm
Any Ukrainians, do you know any results of investigation in Odessa?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 12, 2014, 02:28:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 02:20:16 pm
Any Ukrainians, do you know any results of investigation in Odessa?

Nothing new yet, http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/odesa/ru/publish/article/163177
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 03:02:09 pm

The face seems... familiar.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 03:04:10 pm
Quote from: Umbra on May 12, 2014, 02:11:04 pm
Unification will be achieved once humanity is presented with an outside threat. We will unite under one banner, as a singular war machine under one God Empreror of Mankind to purge the Mutants, Aliens and Heretics and ensure the continuing dominance of our magnificent species.

(click to show/hide)

Even though you say that with humor, its actually pretty true  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 12, 2014, 03:06:01 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 12, 2014, 02:05:08 pm
I'm not talking about human nature. When I say it's not natural to seek unification in any way or form, I mean it as not according to the way universe works. Our whole perception of the world revolves around relations between two or more objects and you want to sell me theory how we should work toward one language, one nation, one everything. Also stuff you dislike that much, such as destruction are perfectly natural things. Destruction is in balance with creation. Trying to curb that in favor of our own ideas how things should work out will never yield desirable results. As an intellegent person and highly educated you should really know better.

What is true for chemicals not necessarily is for humans. Besides I'm not talking about destruction, which is much too broad and vague. Except maybe the destruction of the whole human race, Easter Island-style. And even though it's natural, I don't believe it's desirable. An intelligent and educated person knows that natural doesn't mean desirable. However and completely unrelated, the difference between an intelligent left winger and an intelligent right winger is one thinks natural laws can be changed by ideology and the other believes the opposite.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 03:25:08 pm
Quote from: serr on May 12, 2014, 02:28:28 pm
Nothing new yet, http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/odesa/ru/publish/article/163177
Well, people must be punished from both sides. I think it will help some people to believe authorities. When it wil be stopped? So many people are already dead, opposition in Lugansk says about 46 killed people, about 1/4 of them are civilians. Ukranians, sorry if I offended someone of you. I posted videos here just to equal propoganda from East and West. I think there can be some provokations from Russia, but I upset when people think that Russia is the evil nuber 1 in the world. I think this is worse then in Game of Thrones. And people trolling each other, believing that only they know the truth. I think some politics use civilians for their wills. And because of that people die. :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 03:43:14 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 03:25:08 pm
Well, people must be punished from both sides. I think it will help some people to believe authorities. When it wil be stopped? So many people are already dead, opposition in Lugansk says about 46 killed people, about 1/4 of them are civilians. Ukranians, sorry if I offended someone of you. I posted videos here just to equal propoganda from East and West. I think there can be some provokations from Russia, but I upset when people think that Russia is the evil nuber 1 in the world. I think this is worse then in Game of Thrones. And people trolling each other, believing that only they know the truth. I think some politics use civilians for their wills. And because of that people die. :(
I'm sorry, please remind me, how should a country be treated, which ANNEXED part of a FUCKING FRIENDLY-BFF country and then sends in troops to cause mayhem and destabilize the remaining parts? Maybe get your act together and THEN come barking "we are not evil No 1, we are just poor, missunderstood, insecure, oppressed people who approve of their master leader putler by 80%". I have nothing  but deepest respect for the Ukraine support march, which happened in Moscow some time ago, but I have only disgust  towars putler and his "shaika". And if you support putler - you are his "shaika" so prepare to be treated like one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2014, 04:24:58 pm
Found some interesting information:

Officially by the Donezk voting dudes, there were 790.000 legit voters. 75% participation means there were 592.500 people who actually voted. Voting stations were somewhere between 80 and 100. Let's assume 90. That means every station had 6583 voters during those 14 hours time which means 470 voters per hour, 7,83 voters per minute.

In comparison the last German vote from 2009: 43.371.190 votes were cast in 75.081 stations. Every station had to deal with 578 people during 10 hours. Means 58 per hour, round about 1 per minute.

In comparison, the stations for the referendum had to cope with nearly 8 times as much voters.


Go figure.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 04:32:29 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 03:43:14 pm
I'm sorry, please remind me, how should a country be treated, which ANNEXED part of a FUCKING FRIENDLY-BFF country and then sends in troops to cause mayhem and destabilize the remaining parts? Maybe get your act together and THEN come barking "we are not evil No 1, we are just poor, missunderstood, insecure, oppressed people who approve of their master leader putler by 80%". I have nothing  but deepest respect for the Ukraine support march, which happened in Moscow some time ago, but I have only disgust  towars putler and his "shaika". And if you support putler - you are his "shaika" so prepare to be treated like one.
Really I don't want to offend someone, because I don't know what has happened in the real. I think after revolution on maidan authorities couldn't control the situation in regions, that's why some other politicans used this situation for themselves, I think Russia wanted to join Crimea, but people in Crimea also wanted to join Russia, not all of them, but more then half, if there wasn't a revolution, Russia couldn't join Crimea, my grandma in Kiev also against that Crimea joined Russia, but aunt in Lugansk agreed with joining of Crimea. I think that this was a game between USA and Russia. I can't say that I support Putin, but I appreciate, what he has done inside Russia. And I think that he has done some crimes too, as many politicans. And seems to me that there will be 3 World War, because USA increase their military potential, so Russia also increases it. It will be hard times. Many of us will die.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 04:33:04 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 12, 2014, 04:24:58 pm
Found some interesting information:

Officially by the Donezk voting dudes, there were 790.000 legit voters. 75% participation means there were 592.500 people who actually voted. Voting stations were somewhere between 80 and 100. Let's assume 90. That means every station had 6583 voters during those 14 hours time which means 470 voters per hour, 7,83 voters per minute.

In comparison the last German vote from 2009: 43.371.190 votes were cast in 75.081 stations. Every station had to deal with 578 people during 10 hours. Means 58 per hour, round about 1 per minute.

In comparison, the stations for the referendum had to cope with nearly 8 times as much voters.


Go figure.
Good point. For reference - stats from Lt elections:
2544774 eligible for vote.
2003 eligible districts, ~1270 voter/district average.
52% voted, meaning 661 actuall per district.
Voting open for 12h -> ~1 guy per minute.
Main complaint - LONG queues.

8 voters per minute looks like a LONG stretch. Extreme one at that...

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2014, 04:38:49 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 03:25:08 pm
Well, people must be punished from both sides. I think it will help some people to believe authorities. When it wil be stopped? So many people are already dead, opposition in Lugansk says about 46 killed people, about 1/4 of them are civilians. Ukranians, sorry if I offended someone of you. I posted videos here just to equal propoganda from East and West. I think there can be some provokations from Russia, but I upset when people think that Russia is the evil nuber 1 in the world. I think this is worse then in Game of Thrones. And people trolling each other, believing that only they know the truth. I think some politics use civilians for their wills. And because of that people die. :(

Russia isnt the evil numb 1 in the world. Please. Im quite sure some central African country has that title. Its the evil number 1 in Europe. What Putin did was annex lands at the center of Europe. At fucking 21st century. Serius twat. No other country would ever do this at this day and age. He gave a really retarded reason for it too. "Russian lives were in danger", when they clearly werent even at the very start of this crysis. And what else Putin technically say was "we will invade everywhere where we feel russians are threatened". Basically worring every country that had russians living in them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 04:52:00 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 12, 2014, 04:24:58 pm
Officially by the Donezk voting dudes, there were 790.000 legit voters. 75% participation means there were 592.500 people who actually voted. Voting stations were somewhere between 80 and 100.

On many other sources of information they say there was more than 1000 polling stations.
It would quite change your mathematical approach of the legitimity of the referendum.


Link to your sources?



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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2014, 04:55:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 12, 2014, 04:52:00 pm
On many other sources of information they say there was more than 1000 polling stations.
It would quite change your mathematical approach of the legitimity of the referendum.


Link to your sources?
(click to show/hide)
Burden of proof my ass :P
There are 7+ million of citizens in "affected" regions. I think 790000 were only in one town. So the math gets back to the same order of magnitude, if extrapolated to whole region ROUGHLY. Still 8 times more efficient that Yurop!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 04:58:56 pm
Ouch, thats a lot of voters indeed  :P

So 1000+ stations for 7 millions people?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 05:04:25 pm
1527 voting station were for Donetsk region, as mr. Boris Litvinov said. But it won't change anything, war will be continued in this region, hard to think what authorities should do. I hope that there will not any bombing like in other countries, because my aunt lives there :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 12, 2014, 05:04:37 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 04:32:29 pm
I can't say that I support Putin, but I appreciate, what he has done inside Russia.

 :lol:

Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 04:32:29 pm
And seems to me that there will be 3 World War, because USA increase their military potential, so Russia also increases it. It will be hard times. Many of us will die.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2014, 05:14:41 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 12, 2014, 04:52:00 pm
On many other sources of information they say there was more than 1000 polling stations.
It would quite change your mathematical approach of the legitimity of the referendum.


Link to your sources?



(click to show/hide)
Population Donezk (City): 953.384 (2011) [Google]

You know... since you like to point out that you think for yourself, I actually expected you to do that. Sorry, my bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 05:30:15 pm
I honestly trusted you to provide me with background informations, I know its a bit dangerous but...  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 12, 2014, 05:31:23 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 03:02:09 pm
(click to show/hide)

The face seems... familiar.
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Quote from: Butan on May 12, 2014, 05:30:15 pm
I honestly trusted you to provide me with background informations, I know its a bit dangerous but...  :P

oooh man
you both know too much ((


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 05:42:19 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 12, 2014, 05:04:37 pm
:lol:

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You laughing at nothing, I was on war, did you? If not then be more polite please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 12, 2014, 05:46:54 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2014, 05:42:19 pm
You laughing at nothing, I was on war, did you? If not then be more polite please.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 12, 2014, 07:48:34 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 12, 2014, 05:46:54 pm
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tits pls photo or Get Outta Here !  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 12, 2014, 07:55:44 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 12, 2014, 07:48:34 pm
tits pls photo or Get Outta Here !  :P

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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 12, 2014, 07:58:35 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 12, 2014, 07:55:44 pm
This thread became boring 100 pages ago.


You just revived it for 100 pages or so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on May 12, 2014, 09:00:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 12, 2014, 03:04:10 pm
Even though you say that with humor, its actually pretty true  :P

Well, you can bet that, in the distant future, when some other species comes knocking on our door with bigass lazers, people will quickly stop giving a fuck about who lives where or prays to what god, or who is black or gay. Only thing that will matter is can you do 20 pullups and shoot a gun in battle without shitting your pants.

Basically we wont unify as humanity because we dont need too. We are perfectly content with killing eachother untill its time to kill some greater "other". And you can bet there will be blood. We cant even handle the differences in our own race here on Earth, much less from another planet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 12, 2014, 09:31:53 pm
I'm sure I've said it before, but humans really should have at least colonised the Moon by now, looking solely at the technology we have collectively discovered.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 12, 2014, 10:19:30 pm
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 12, 2014, 09:31:53 pm
I'm sure I've said it before, but humans really should have at least colonised the Moon by now, looking solely at the technology we have collectively discovered.
I blame religion & Greenpeace(cause of cloning & Monsanto hate) :P

10 muslims(most religious countries) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_laureates
over 9000 jews(probably least affected by destructive force of religion, they even killed some messiah xD ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 12, 2014, 10:46:23 pm
Dunno about Monsanto. They may be pioneering, but I'm not sure about the patenting of lifeforms...  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 12, 2014, 10:54:55 pm
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 12, 2014, 10:46:23 pm
Dunno about Monsanto. They may be pioneering, but I'm not sure about the patenting of lifeforms...  :lol:
Well, they need some money to feed their genetic modified families :) & Because of some greentards in governments introducing new food modifications is huge pain in the ass. Years of tests & tons of money just to approve rice that will save millions of children, for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice
"The research was conducted with the goal of producing a fortified food to be grown and consumed in areas with a shortage of dietary vitamin A,[2] a deficiency which is estimated to kill 670,000 children under the age of 5 each year.
Although golden rice was developed as a humanitarian tool, it has met with significant opposition from environmental and anti-globalization activists."
Btw, anti-globalization activists are another form of humanity cancer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 12, 2014, 10:57:06 pm
I've heard Monsanto has some draconian patenting and licensing approach, that really fucks farmers over.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2014, 11:01:10 pm
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 12, 2014, 09:31:53 pm
I'm sure I've said it before, but humans really should have at least colonised the Moon by now, looking solely at the technology we have collectively discovered.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russia-plans-to-colonize-moon-by-2030-newspaper-reports/499806.html

http://rt.com/news/157800-russia-moon-colonization-plan/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/russia-plans-colonize-moon-permanent-lunar-base-report-article-1.1785673
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on May 13, 2014, 12:20:08 am
How the fuck does a thread go from arguing about Ukraine, to talking about globalization, to Monsanto, to moon bases?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 12:38:35 am
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 12, 2014, 10:46:23 pm
patenting

The worst "invention" of the western world ever!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 13, 2014, 12:53:14 am
Well it would help if inventing stuff didn't take so much time (cost so much in lost potential wages).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 13, 2014, 04:02:58 am
Monsanto is, willingly or not, establishing a monopole on many seeds. This in itself is a huge problem. Furthermore, the implantation of GM crops has been shown to cause spills that eventually spread and merge with local varieties, ultimately destroying them.

Quote from: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 12:38:35 am
The worst "invention" of the western world ever!

Without patents there would be very little point dedicating resources to research for entrepreneurs. Patents cause problems too, but protecting the inventor is necessary.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 13, 2014, 05:20:12 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 13, 2014, 04:02:58 am
(click to show/hide)
MMm monsanto i love it! yummy
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 13, 2014, 07:14:55 am
Quote from: Swaggart on May 13, 2014, 12:20:08 am
How the fuck does a thread go from arguing about Ukraine, to talking about globalization, to Monsanto, to moon bases?

still boring.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 13, 2014, 08:23:31 am
Quote from: Falka on May 13, 2014, 07:14:55 am
still boring.
But come on... just remember
(click to show/hide)
Insta turn on! Don't complain too much.

On the relevant topic tough - the scenario is boring and witnessed at lease once in Crimea, plus to some extent. Apparently separatists are already asking to be added to russia... wonder how the "majority" argument works this time. Even putler seems somewhat reserved as to recognizing this farce of a referendum as a real thing...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2014, 12:04:13 pm
For Russia it's simply not a good idea to add 2 piss poor regions with crappy industry held together by duck tape to their own crappy industry held together by duck tape.

I've heard some analyst yesterday talk about "New Russia" and how this could become interesting for Russia if Dnepopetrovsk would be added to the mix. Those 3 regions would be big enough to become a new country ("New Russia") and with the Dnepo. part being the actual interesting area for Russia.
Furthermore he said that this isn't too likely to happen tho because the goveneur of Dnepo. has his own little army established and uses those to keep law and order. There doesn't seem to be any uprising in that area because people seem to be satisfied with their relative peace and stability. The goveneur is said to be a supporter of Kiev and the EU.

It sounds legit or at least a possible scenario. It will be interesting to see how the situation develops in Dnepopetrovsk. Donezk and Luhansk seem to be lost, more or less. I think it was Donezk who already asked Moscow to become a part of the RF after the referendum generated those results. Lawrow was awfully quiet and distanced when he was asked about another addition to the RF in form of those 2 regions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 12:54:05 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 13, 2014, 04:02:58 am
Without patents there would be very little point dedicating resources to research for entrepreneurs. Patents cause problems too, but protecting the inventor is necessary.

That's a problem of capitalism. Would like to see you trying to invent something today and going through all the hoops,  to avoid stepping in someone's territory. Just imagine, you've done almost everything in a way no one has done it before but tiny fraction of your invention infringes patent no.342424 which means patent troll legal office will make sure you give all the credit to them or will make it impossible to commercialize it.

It's kinda said I have to explain this to an adult...

Also Kafein, you're not sticking to your own principles. If you're so pro globalization and USA, how about you start using english interface on your PC instead of french?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 13, 2014, 01:59:04 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 13, 2014, 12:04:13 pm
For Russia it's simply not a good idea to add 2 piss poor regions with crappy industry held together by duck tape to their own crappy industry held together by duck tape.


Been accusing Putler to expand in Ukraine and now you're saying they wont because they dont have a good industry?
I think they will push it if they really invested that much time/money/military in destabilization and rampant annexing.
Or they didnt?..

And if Russia had bad industry, how would more bad industry would hurt them? It would be more logical if they had good industry and didnt want any bad ones.

I dont know for Ukraine industry, but isnt south/east the richest part of the country?
Also if they can take control of more of the black sea coast and landlock Ukraine, bad industry isnt going to matter a lot, those 2 regions you speak of are part of a necessary chain of regions, and also part of where the unrest is strong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on May 13, 2014, 02:58:36 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 03:25:34 pm
Hmm, I didn't know about this:
Quote
On March 27, the U.N. General Assembly passed a resolution rejecting Russia's annexation of Crimea. But Israel abstained, choosing to maintain relations with Moscow, which has significant sway over the course of the war in Syria and the Iran situation, both of which directly affect Israel's national security.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Israel-pivots-to-China-India-as-US-influence-wanes

Interesting...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2014, 03:47:37 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 13, 2014, 01:59:04 pm

Been accusing Putler to expand in Ukraine and now you're saying they wont because they dont have a good industry?
I think they will push it if they really invested that much time/money/military in destabilization and rampant annexing.
Or they didnt?..

And if Russia had bad industry, how would more bad industry would hurt them? It would be more logical if they had good industry and didnt want any bad ones.

I dont know for Ukraine industry, but isnt south/east the richest part of the country?
Also if they can take control of more of the black sea coast and landlock Ukraine, bad industry isnt going to matter a lot, those 2 regions you speak of are part of a necessary chain of regions, and also part of where the unrest is strong.
Maybe you should take another look at the map of Ukraine. Just saying...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 13, 2014, 03:50:21 pm
Thank you, I stand corrected!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 13, 2014, 04:12:09 pm
Tought east ukraine and Donbass region especially has a massiv coal industry
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 13, 2014, 04:18:46 pm
This all mess learns - once again - only one thing; if someone wants to grab even pinch of your land - shoot at him. Still can't understand how ukrainians could gave away their military bases and warships.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 13, 2014, 04:21:38 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 12:54:05 pm
That's a problem of capitalism. Would like to see you trying to invent something today and going through all the hoops,  to avoid stepping in someone's territory. Just imagine, you've done almost everything in a way no one has done it before but tiny fraction of your invention infringes patent no.342424 which means patent troll legal office will make sure you give all the credit to them or will make it impossible to commercialize it.

It's kinda said I have to explain this to an adult...

I have never said patenting as it exists now is perfect. In fact it's one of the most dysfunctional parts of our economic system, mostly in the US but also in the EU. However, I don't believe the core idea of patents is wrong. The problem is how it is applied. Patent submission is a retarded process right now, trust me I know (even though you seem to think I'm ignorant of these issues). But it's also almost impossible to change it. Salvation may eventually come from the new patent offices in emerging countries that are built on more modern principles than the 18th century crap the US is using.

Quote from: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 12:54:05 pm
Also Kafein, you're not sticking to your own principles. If you're so pro globalization and USA, how about you start using english interface on your PC instead of french?

CBA to change it. By the way I'm pro globalization which means anti-USA if you count the USA as an independent nation-state. The western world and the EU in particular just happen to be a much better model for a world government than anything else we know right now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 04:31:06 pm
It is certainly better than what thye have in Russia or China, but I wouldn't praise it too much. It seriously lacks transparency, and that is the thing western officials like to mention as biggest advantage. So many stuff going behind the curtains, less than in totalitarian regimes but still too much for a modern man to swallow.

For example, as a citizen of a globalized world I would like to know everything about recent privacy scandals without having to dig through countless conspiracy theories trying to find something solid. If western governments are so open, transparent and free why I'm unable to find true info on this topic?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 13, 2014, 05:45:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 13, 2014, 08:23:31 am
On the relevant topic tough - the scenario is boring and witnessed at lease once in Crimea, plus to some extent. Apparently separatists are already asking to be added to russia... wonder how the "majority" argument works this time. Even putler seems somewhat reserved as to recognizing this farce of a referendum as a real thing...
I like the fact that Putin used "must save Russian ppl" excuse to send unmarked troops & annex Crimea when there was no tiny threat from mythical Bandera\Right sector.
But now, Rus ppl get shooted & burned alive. Jew junta & Nаzi forces everywhere, but where is the Mighty Defender of Innocence now? Doesn't want another 8 millions of Russian-wannabes? How dare he!  :evil:

Btw,
Funny fact #1: http://www.rg.ru/2013/09/30/budjet-site.html
"Funded part of pensions canceled for one(2014) year". Short story - there are no money to pay future pensions  :cry:
Funny fact #2: My mom retired few months ago from 20 years of military service, her pension is 11500 rubles(330$)
Funny fact #3: State salaries & pensions in Crimea will be raised by 100%. Average pension will be about 12000 (340$) (11.2 crimea, 12.4 Sevastopol) there. http://www.rg.ru/2014/03/31/pensii-krim-site.html
So basically, my mom will share her savings with some unknown dudes who never paid a penny of Russian taxes. Yey!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 13, 2014, 07:43:51 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on May 13, 2014, 04:12:09 pm
Tought east ukraine and Donbass region especially has a massiv coal industry
Yea, the do have massive heavy industry but it's supposingly sooo old and broken that an investment of billions would be necessary to get it running with profit, even working properly. That is the reason why some doubt that Russia is even interested in Lughansk and Donezk without the "better" Dnepopetrovsk.

That's what said analyst said as a possible scenario. He wasn't claiming any "thruth", he was just talking about possibilities but it sounded pretty down to earth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 13, 2014, 08:18:15 pm
At least they have something, even if it is "old and broken". Unlike west Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 09:01:18 pm
For ukranians some video, you maybe didn't watch. What do you think
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 13, 2014, 09:02:05 pm
http://www.huru.ru/post/13105?ref=fb#page=vk

Look at all those T-34s going to Berlin :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 13, 2014, 09:18:02 pm
Seven Ukrainian soldiers killed in separatist ambush (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/13/us-ukraine-crisis-casualties-idUSBREA4C0I220140513)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 09:39:41 pm
Nato sends tanks to the East compilation:
(click to show/hide)
You think that there won't any war?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 13, 2014, 09:58:58 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 09:39:41 pm
Nato sends tanks to the East compilation:
(click to show/hide)
You think that there won't any war?

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2 minutes ago USA sumbmarine launched their ballistic missle! THE TIME HAS COME!

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on May 13, 2014, 10:00:51 pm
source? It does not appear in the sites I usually check
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 13, 2014, 10:06:00 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 09:39:41 pm
Nato sends tanks to the East compilation:
(click to show/hide)
You think that there won't any war?

I liked the top comment: "Армия США перебрасывает бронетехнику в Европу по железной дороге... Гомон ТВ это что  - канал для дебилов? " What is it with u russians stamping USA or na zi on every piece of military equipment or political engagement on earth that isnt yours? It does kinda make sense. From what ive heard(dunno if this is bullshit or not, but I like to belive its not), Kremlin is extremely paranoid in general. They are frightened by things like the internet and such. With good reason thou. US is best in the world at this surveillancething.

There isnt much proof of US doing much of anything in Ukraine. Its hard to even understand why would they. They have nothing to gain. US doesnt interfere unless some serius genocide is gonna take place or some serius profit is to be made. And there's really nothing to take or noone to "save" in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 10:14:48 pm
Yeah this transportation is fake as always. I would like to believe that. But in the last 10 years there were some attempts to destabilize the situation around Russia. Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine. Everywhere USA respected those actions. If not then correct me. Some politics talk abot it in USA too. Russia and China become too strong for USA.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 13, 2014, 10:17:28 pm
Nicko, if you weren't russian I'd thought you're ingenius troll.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 10:18:50 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 13, 2014, 10:17:28 pm
Nicko, if you weren't russian I'd thought you're ingenius troll.
Thanks Falka, same of you. I know you don't care about people death, so sorry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on May 13, 2014, 10:24:42 pm
As long as I'm not the one whos dying no, I don't care.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 10:25:40 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 13, 2014, 10:24:42 pm
As long as I'm not the one whos dying no, I don't care.
Yes, I've already understood this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 13, 2014, 11:09:57 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 09:39:41 pm
Nato sends tanks to the East compilation:
(click to show/hide)
You think that there won't any war?

Wasn't that same video posted some time ago by Dave about UKR sending their tanks to the front.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 14, 2014, 12:15:14 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 13, 2014, 10:06:00 pm
What is it with [...] stamping USA/RUS or na zi on every piece of military equipment or political engagement on earth

must be new to this thread  :P 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 14, 2014, 12:48:22 am
Quote from: [ptx] on May 13, 2014, 09:02:05 pm
http://www.huru.ru/post/13105?ref=fb#page=vk

It's funny to see CCCP written on SUVs and German sedans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 14, 2014, 06:08:44 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2014, 10:14:48 pm
Yeah this transportation is fake as always. I would like to believe that. But in the last 10 years there were some attempts to destabilize the situation around Russia. Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine. Everywhere USA respected those actions. If not then correct me. Some politics talk abot it in USA too. Russia and China become too strong for USA.

Well that was an american train in america, I noticed that much. Delivering equipment somewhere. We dont know where. And from what ive generally gathered, all that the US provided Eastern-Europeans was a very small number of troops. Eastern NATOmembers dont get supplied by the US, they get supplied by other European NATO members. Tanks from Germany, Guns from Norway, APCs from I dunno how many difference places. I think only jets are generally from the US.
There were attemts to destabilize Belarus? When? Belarus has its dictatorship and Russia has a pretty strong grip on it. Havent really heard any news about it tbh.

Russia hasnt become too strong of US. Not even close. Russia itself considers itself some adversary, but its far from it. US has really nothing to fear. I mean seriuslly. Do think about it. U have freaking Russia. A country with 2 times less population, less technology, much fewer allies and shitty economy thats getting worse every year considering itself to be a threat to a country like the US. Russia is a threat to Europe. Thats how far it will ever get.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 14, 2014, 06:25:25 am
You're right, Russia isn't a threat for anybody. But USA is a threat for everybody on this planet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 14, 2014, 06:29:50 am
If you're an idiot, yes. So you have much to fear.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: HarunYahya on May 14, 2014, 07:03:53 am
It's sad to see people kill each other for same reasons over thousands of years...
We differ ourselves by animals by having the ability to think rationally. Sad truth is with all our political systems,inventions,advanced communication,sociology,philosophic experiences of questining our own existence and shit... We are on top of the food pyramid because there are no predators over humans. Not because we are "civilized" or "advanced" compared to other animals.

Still killing same species because of territory.
Actually we are much worse than any other living organism in this world. It was in Matrix I guess, agent smith was describing humans as cancer, a virus which eliminates everything and overpopulates to deal greater damage. (Maybe some other movie tho)
Thats truly what we are. Growing cancer.

If Putin keeps the way he acts, there'll be consequences. I don't think that It'll be enough reason to start WW3 (Which might be the final battle which will "reset" the world by killing everything with overusage of bio-chemical weapons tho) but it might be one of the reasons when the time comes. Don't underestimate those conflicts. Neighbouring countries always want something from you that they don't have and once you go unstable by war, they might involve into the conflict just to take a piece from you. All World Wars started like that a lil conflict between few countries became global mess ...


Also, had to wait a lot to post this message lol :
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 14, 2014, 08:39:05 am
US's Vice President Biden's son joins the Board of Directors of the largest gas production company in Ukraine:

http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 14, 2014, 08:47:29 am
This has to mean something!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 08:50:34 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 14, 2014, 06:08:44 am
Well that was an american train in america, I noticed that much. Delivering equipment somewhere. We dont know where. And from what ive generally gathered, all that the US provided Eastern-Europeans was a very small number of troops. Eastern NATOmembers dont get supplied by the US, they get supplied by other European NATO members. Tanks from Germany, Guns from Norway, APCs from I dunno how many difference places. I think only jets are generally from the US.
There were attemts to destabilize Belarus? When? Belarus has its dictatorship and Russia has a pretty strong grip on it. Havent really heard any news about it tbh.

Russia hasnt become too strong of US. Not even close. Russia itself considers itself some adversary, but its far from it. US has really nothing to fear. I mean seriuslly. Do think about it. U have freaking Russia. A country with 2 times less population, less technology, much fewer allies and shitty economy thats getting worse every year considering itself to be a threat to a country like the US. Russia is a threat to Europe. Thats how far it will ever get.
WW3  will not be now, maybe. But everything is going to. Why do you think, that belarus has a dictatorship? There were 2 attemts to destabilize Belarus in 2006, and 2010. But it's not known in the world, because Lukashenko punished them.
Russia becomes stronger, and this is don't like USA, and BRIC is much stronger then you think, China is the biggest holder of USA debt, and if they want they can ruine USA economy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 14, 2014, 09:02:34 am
I don't think you understand how the economy works. China cannot ruin USA's economy unless they fancy ruining their own as well. Being "the biggest holder of USA debt" means less than you think it means. In the end, it comes down to a paper saying U.S owes them imaginary numbers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 09:18:28 am
Quote from: Xant on May 14, 2014, 09:02:34 am
I don't think you understand how the economy works. China cannot ruin USA's economy unless they fancy ruining their own as well. Being "the biggest holder of USA debt" means less than you think it means. In the end, it comes down to a paper saying U.S owes them imaginary numbers.
Well, I graduated from economy university with highest mark. Of course economy now is one big soap bubble, it's a fake which is made by USA. But if they will play their own game, then it will be collapse of economy, not in China. Russia also will not suffer of it too much. USA also will not suffer. But Europe will loose a lot. Dollar will cost nothing, because the real value of dollar is nothing now. The world economy will crush. And USA will loose their influence, and they dont want to, so what do they need to do? Yes as always, they need to start the war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 14, 2014, 09:42:24 am
You might want to look at how the ruble is doing under jingoputin first.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 10:09:29 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 14, 2014, 09:42:24 am
You might want to look at how the ruble is doing under jingoputin first.
Lol, it will, but people in Russia won't be surprised by that. It's common for us to live in hard conditions, most of us has gardens and we can feed ourselves, maybe in capital people will suffer more, but this economy is a fake, and we can live without dollar with own economy, of course we will cooperate with China, India and some other countries like Brazil, Argentina, Cuba and so on, and all East. Well Putin already has this plans. Russia has biggest energy resources, China has biggest industrial resources, in fact this two country don't need other world, so step by step Russia will integrate into the East and separate from West, in plans is to make new east currency like euro in Europe. But as I said WW3 is coming
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2014, 10:18:30 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 10:09:29 am
Lol, it will, but people in Russia won't be surprised by that. It's common for us to live in hard conditions, most of us has gardens and we can feed ourselves, maybe in capital people will suffer more, but this economy is a fake, and we can live without dollar with own economy, of course we will cooperate with China, India and some other countries like Brazil, Argentina, Cuba and so on, and all East. Well Putin already has this plans. Russia has biggest energy resources, China has biggest industrial resources, in fact this two country don't need other world, so step by step Russia will integrate into the East and separate from West, in plans is to make new east currency like euro in Europe. But as I said WW3 is coming
WIthout that "fake" economies buying russias oil and gas you would live like a sad 3rd world country I'm afraid. But these what-if's are pointless. Pointless because at some point in the future China WILL come to defend native speakers in siberia and then russia will have no oil, only corruption. OR - Oil/Gas will run out/be replaced by something else and you will still remain without this major source of income to your budget. This is when shit will be hitting the fan hard. Buy some land and plant something there, maybe it will be enough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 10:24:02 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 14, 2014, 10:18:30 am
WIthout that "fake" economies buying russias oil and gas you would live like a sad 3rd world country I'm afraid. But these what-if's are pointless. Pointless because at some point in the future China WILL come to defend native speakers in siberia and then russia will have no oil, only corruption. OR - Oil/Gas will run out/be replaced by something else and you will still remain without this major source of income to your budget. This is when shit will be hitting the fan hard. Buy some land and plant something there, maybe it will be enough.
Ofcourse russian expert :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 14, 2014, 10:29:31 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 10:09:29 am
But as I said WW3 is coming
Indeed, so people who aren't actively training for it are fools who will die FIRST
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 14, 2014, 10:53:43 am
Quote from: Falka on May 13, 2014, 09:58:58 pm
(click to show/hide)
miss!


 38°53′42″N 77°02′11″W fire
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 14, 2014, 12:04:01 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 14, 2014, 10:18:30 am
WIthout that "fake" economies buying russias oil and gas you would live like a sad 3rd world country I'm afraid. But these what-if's are pointless. Pointless because at some point in the future China WILL come to defend native speakers in siberia and then russia will have no oil, only corruption. OR - Oil/Gas will run out/be replaced by something else and you will still remain without this major source of income to your budget. This is when shit will be hitting the fan hard. Buy some land and plant something there, maybe it will be enough.
we dont need oil and gas we have potato

also we can hire atleast 1 latvian for only 1 potato per year!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2014, 01:34:06 pm
Well... what can I say. Vovka delivers. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 14, 2014, 01:43:28 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 14, 2014, 10:29:31 am
Indeed, so people who aren't actively training for it are fools who will die FIRST

I dont think you even understand what you are saying, relative to your past posts here  :rolleyes:

Its good to be in this thread since page 10, and with a relatively good memory, and see people going from one side of an argument to another everytime it fits their "witty jokes"  :) 



And I'm the autistic contradictor...  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 14, 2014, 01:47:08 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 14, 2014, 01:43:28 pm
I dont think you even understand what you are saying, relative to your past posts here  :rolleyes:

Its good to be in this thread since page 10, and with a relatively good memory, and see people going from one side of an argument to another everytime it fits their "witty jokes"  :) 



And I'm the autistic contradictor...  :P
I have no doubt you don't think so. It'd take some intelligence to understand what I've said and what I'm saying. There is zero contradiction between those two, by the way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 14, 2014, 02:11:36 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 14, 2014, 08:47:29 am
This has to mean something!

No, this means nothing. Paranoia much?....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 14, 2014, 02:42:22 pm
Well Butan, are you going to point out how I don't understand what I'm saying? I await with bated breath -- though we both know you can't actually back up your claims. That one, or the others.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 14, 2014, 03:39:51 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 14, 2014, 08:39:05 am
US's Vice President Biden's son joins the Board of Directors of the largest gas production company in Ukraine:

http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/

Nepotism at its finest. Pretty common is post-communist countries but seems it's also common in "progressive" countries as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 04:00:55 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on May 14, 2014, 04:53:47 pm
[H]ello !

Less war !
More frog-love !  8-) 8-) 8-)
(click to show/hide)
Goodbye !

Edit: FrenchKiss !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 14, 2014, 05:05:52 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 14, 2014, 12:04:01 pm
also we can hire atleast 1 latvian for only 1 potato per year!

Thats funny cuz u poorer then latvians, which means we could hire u for less.  :lol: Ruskies working for 1/4 of a potato a year sounds like a fair deal to me comrad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 14, 2014, 05:11:16 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 14, 2014, 05:05:52 pm
Thats funny cuz u poorer then latvians, which means we could hire u for less.  :lol: Ruskies working for 1/4 of a potato a year sounds like a fair deal to me comrad.
half of latvia own by russians XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 14, 2014, 05:16:20 pm
Well then eventually it is gonna be as poor as Russia will it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 14, 2014, 07:14:53 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 14, 2014, 02:11:36 pm
Paranoia much?....

  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  E  D  D  D  D  D  D  D  D  D
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-14-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-
-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-12-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-10-
 {...................................pm..........................................................................................}

 G   D   E    Gsus2
-------------------
--------------12---
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-12-----------12---
-10--12--14--------
-----10--12--------

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 14, 2014, 07:22:15 pm
Away with your out-of-sync ASCII tablature, you fiend.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 14, 2014, 07:23:22 pm
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 14, 2014, 07:22:15 pm
Away with your out-of-sync ASCII tablature, you fiend.

Too lazy to fix it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 14, 2014, 07:26:33 pm
Then you should have previewed it first. Remove it and add a cat picture instead. Or spoiler it and add a cat picture, so people will know what foolishness of yours I am referring to.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 14, 2014, 07:32:18 pm
no
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 14, 2014, 07:50:56 pm
yes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 14, 2014, 08:01:33 pm
cyka ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 14, 2014, 08:08:07 pm
Meanwhile, In Ukraine...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 14, 2014, 08:49:28 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 14, 2014, 10:20:33 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 14, 2014, 11:34:54 pm
...

So?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-un-marked-combat-helicopters-used-government-offensive-against-separatists-1448490 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-un-marked-combat-helicopters-used-government-offensive-against-separatists-1448490)

Maybe link the article? No?

Fuck being informative, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 14, 2014, 11:50:38 pm
No way to determine the date when that was recorded but if it is recent footage (since whole thing escalated) then it would be biggest fuck up so far done by Ukrainians. Not even Russians would do something stupid.

What's next, Red Cross vehicle armed with missiles?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 15, 2014, 12:08:37 am
Quote from: Christo on May 14, 2014, 11:34:54 pm
...

So?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-un-marked-combat-helicopters-used-government-offensive-against-separatists-1448490 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-un-marked-combat-helicopters-used-government-offensive-against-separatists-1448490)

Maybe link the article? No?

Fuck being informative, right?

After reading the article, I think I would have been better without.


Quote
The UN's Departments of Peacekeeping Operations and Field Support is liasing with Ukrainian authorities to clarify the situation.

Goddamn right they are liasing. Hahaha, seriously.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 15, 2014, 02:08:54 am
Go to RT.com then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2014, 07:35:38 am
Quote from: Leshma on May 14, 2014, 11:50:38 pm
No way to determine the date when that was recorded but if it is recent footage (since whole thing escalated) then it would be biggest fuck up so far done by Ukrainians. Not even Russians would do something stupid.

What's next, Red Cross vehicle armed with missiles?
How is that "the biggest fuck up"? What? It's pretty obvious that they had helicopters lying around that they hadn't repainted since they'd been used for UN missions, and they decided that instead of having no helicopters because of two letters, they'd still use them. Not a fuck up. In any way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 15, 2014, 09:01:07 am
Quote from: Xant on May 15, 2014, 07:35:38 am
How is that "the biggest fuck up"? What? It's pretty obvious that they had helicopters lying around that they hadn't repainted since they'd been used for UN missions, and they decided that instead of having no helicopters because of two letters, they'd still use them. Not a fuck up. In any way.
I think the problem here is credibility. Just like taking up red cross sign and hiding a bunch of commandos inside instead of the wounded or medical personell. So it IS a fuck up. Buying a spray-paint can and doing some grafiti is 1h TOPS. So - this is a fuckup.

On the other side - as you said - not using choppers when you need them and you have them but because they are "painted wrong"
 - is BS if lifes of your fellow solders are on the line. Still - I would have bought some spray-paint-cans ...  :rolleyes:

Having read the article though and seeing the source - I should add that this is a fuckup ONLY if its actually true... seeing how its coming from lifenews/RT... well... not too much credibility those two. :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 15, 2014, 09:08:20 am
http://www.mil.gov.ua/index.php?lang=en&part=news&sub=read&id=34687
Quote
The Army Aviation of the Land Forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces does not have helicopters with the UN marking. Some helicopters which have recently participated in the peacekeeping missions abroad are painted in white color but they are marked by the insignia of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

This is official site of our ministry of defence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on May 15, 2014, 09:13:57 am
Quote from: Christo on May 14, 2014, 11:34:54 pm
...

So?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-un-marked-combat-helicopters-used-government-offensive-against-separatists-1448490 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-un-marked-combat-helicopters-used-government-offensive-against-separatists-1448490)

Maybe link the article? No?

Fuck being informative, right?

Those were just helicopters used in peace (lol) missions in Congo I believe, they were just too lazy to repaint them, no big fuss, Russia will try to make it a big deal no doubt
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 15, 2014, 10:35:45 am
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/georgia-moldova-sign-eu-pact-says-herman-van-rompuy-1448583

rekt
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2014, 12:21:19 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 15, 2014, 09:01:07 am
I think the problem here is credibility. Just like taking up red cross sign and hiding a bunch of commandos inside instead of the wounded or medical personell. So it IS a fuck up. Buying a spray-paint can and doing some grafiti is 1h TOPS. So - this is a fuckup.

On the other side - as you said - not using choppers when you need them and you have them but because they are "painted wrong"
 - is BS if lifes of your fellow solders are on the line. Still - I would have bought some spray-paint-cans ...  :rolleyes:

Having read the article though and seeing the source - I should add that this is a fuckup ONLY if its actually true... seeing how its coming from lifenews/RT... well... not too much credibility those two. :?
Of course it'd have been better for Ukraine if they'd have been painted over, but in the end, who cares? It caused a minor misunderstanding at most and UN isn't going to punish Ukraine harshly for it either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 15, 2014, 01:21:27 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 15, 2014, 10:35:45 am
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/georgia-moldova-sign-eu-pact-says-herman-van-rompuy-1448583

rekt

Being one of the top 10 most deadbeat enemy of Russia they were kinda in EU pact ipso facto.

Well, goodbye georgia/moldova diplomacy & economy  :cry:  after Ukraine, 2 other countries fall into the current time west/east antagonism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 15, 2014, 02:08:37 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 15, 2014, 12:21:19 pm
Of course it'd have been better for Ukraine if they'd have been painted over, but in the end, who cares? It caused a minor misunderstanding at most and UN isn't going to punish Ukraine harshly for it either.

Under assumption that whole thing is true (we don't know yet but you're so ready to state it being obvious, typical Xant), using helicopters with UN decals in the conflict could means that rebels will shoot next time they see actual UN personnel. It is a huge problem for UN.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 15, 2014, 02:21:15 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 15, 2014, 01:21:27 pm
Being one of the top 10 most deadbeat enemy of Russia they were kinda in EU pact ipso facto.

Well, goodbye georgia/moldova diplomacy & economy  :cry:  after Ukraine, 2 other countries fall into the current time west/east antagonism.

When the EU proposes trade agreements it's "goodbye georgia/moldova diplomacy & economy" now. If those treaties are so bad, why are they signing ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2014, 02:24:08 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 15, 2014, 02:08:37 pm
Under assumption that whole thing is true (we don't know yet but you're so ready to state it being obvious, typical Xant), using helicopters with UN decals in the conflict could means that rebels will shoot next time they see actual UN personnel. It is a huge problem for UN.
You mean you don't know. Don't confuse your ignorance with mine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jambi on May 15, 2014, 04:13:26 pm
Remember kids!

Xant is always right.

Just thought i'd pop in and remind you guys of this lost knowledge.

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 15, 2014, 04:26:23 pm
Quote from: Jambi on May 15, 2014, 04:13:26 pm
Remember kids!

Xant is always right.

Just thought i'd pop in and remind you guys of this lost knowledge.

(click to show/hide)

Usually Xant is right by default because whoever tries to argue with him doesn't know what arguing means.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2014, 05:32:33 pm
I see that Jambi has learned kyokushin while he has been away. This is good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on May 15, 2014, 07:00:02 pm
Anti-Refyerendyum machines in action:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 15, 2014, 07:22:49 pm
At least its not raining...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 15, 2014, 08:28:01 pm
German parliamentarians, particularly those of the Die Linke Party, called on the government of Angela Merkel to order an independent investigation into the presence of mercenaries in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 15, 2014, 08:31:40 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 15, 2014, 08:28:01 pm
German parliamentarians, particularly those of the Die Linke Party, called on the government of Angela Merkel to order an independent investigation into the presence of mercenaries in Ukraine.
That's huge big-ass news! Good thing you informed us!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2014, 08:36:42 pm
Hahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 15, 2014, 08:38:19 pm
top kek

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 15, 2014, 08:49:00 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 15, 2014, 02:21:15 pm
If those treaties are so bad, why are they signing ?

Because else they are going to be instantly annexed in the next few days, WW3, communism-fascism-war-on-terror fear? You know, all the things we can read on this thread and everywhere in the free world about Russia and other baddies  :o

Or you dont link those events to whats happening with Ukraine?  :P



Everyone is forced to take a side, we must unite against UIF IRL!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 15, 2014, 09:07:43 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 15, 2014, 08:49:00 pm
<...>
Everyone is forced to take a side, we must unite against UIF IRL!
You know... I STILL can't stop being surprised as to how ignorant and naive your french ass is when it comes to dealings related to russia. Even the fact, that you consider these two more-or-less equal sides to be chose is beyond me... I mean... like... complete ... shining of spotless mind... :shock: Even if its a joke - it sooooo last century...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 15, 2014, 09:15:08 pm
Its good to see there is more awake person like you to stand ground and protect us from enemies, either from within or outside!

We thank you, silent guardians of democracy and peace  8-) god bless
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 15, 2014, 09:25:27 pm
That's because of this :

Quote
On April 25, four German officers working for the OSCE, stepping out of their mandate, travelled to the east of the country where they were arrested for espionage by Ukrainian federalists and detained for a week.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 15, 2014, 09:30:36 pm
Quote
Bloodbath in Odessa guided by interim rulers of Ukraine

The information provided below was obtained from an insider in one of Ukraine’s law-enforcement agencies, who wished to remain anonymous for obvious reasons. It is clear that there are people even within the interim administration in Kiev who are against what happened in Odessa on May 2 and throughout the whole country [1].


The Atlanticist media stubbornly presents the crimes committed in Odessa on May 2 as the result of an accidental blaze, while the photos and video footage available leave no doubt that the victims were tortured and murdered before being burned. We bring you first-hand information on how the operation was organized and executed under the direct and personal authority of coup-appointed acting President Alexander Turchinov.

After the loss of Crimea and the popular uprising in Mariupol, Odessa is now Ukraine’s only gateway to the sea, thus making it the most important city in the country after Kiev.

Ten days before the tragedy a secret meeting was held in Kiev, chaired by the incumbent president Olexander Turchinov, to prepare a special operation in Odessa. Present were minister of internal affairs Arsen Avakov, the head of the Ukrainian Security Service Valentin Nalivaychenko, and the secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Andriy Parubiy. Ukrainian oligarch Ihor Kolomoiskiy, the Kiev-appointed head of regional administration of the Dnepropetrovsk region, was consulted in regard to the operation.

During that meeting Arsen Avakov reportedly came up with the idea of using football hooligans, known as “ultras,” in the operation. Ever since his time as the head of the Kharkov regional administration he has worked closely with the fan leaders, whom he continued to sponsor even from his new home in Italy [2].

Kolomoisky temporarily delivered his private “Dnieper-1” Battalion under the command of law-enforcement officials in Odessa and also authorized a cash payment of $5,000 for “each pro-Russian separatist” killed during the special operation.

A couple of days before the operation in Odessa Andriy Parubiy brought dozens of bullet-proof vests to local ultra-nationalists [3]. This video shows an episode of handing the vests to the local Maidan activists in Odessa. Take note of the person who receives the load. He is Mykola Volkov, a local hard-core criminal who would be repeatedly screened during the assault on Trade Unionist House gun-shooting at the people [4] and reporting about the “incident” by phone to an official in Kiev [5].
Preparations

Ultranationalist militants from the extremist Ukrainian National Assembly (UNA-UNSO), who could be recognized by their red armbands, were also used during the operation. They were assigned a key role in the staging of the provocations: they masqueraded as the defenders of the tent city on Kulikovo Field, and then lured its occupants to the House of Trade Unions to be slaughtered.

Fifteen roadblocks were set up outside of Odessa, secured by militants under the personal command of Kolomoisky’s “Dnieper-1” Battalion, as well as Right Sector’s thugs from Dnepropetrovsk and the western regions of Ukraine. In addition, two military units from the Self-Defense of Maidan arrived in Odessa, under the command of the acting head of the administration of the president, Sergey Pashinsky – the same man who was caught with a sniper rifle in the trunk of his car on Feb. 18 on Independence Square (Maidan) in Kiev [6]. Pashinsky later claimed that he had not been fully informed about the plans for the operation and had dispatched his men only to “protect the people of Odessa.”Thus, there were a total of about 1,400 fighters from other regions of Ukraine in the vicinity at the time – thus countering the idea that there were “residents of Odessa” who burned down the House of Trade Unions.
Dmitry Fucheji mysteriously dissappeared soon after the tradegy in Odessa.

The role of the Odessa police forces in the operation was personally directed by the head of the regional police, Petr Lutsyuk, and his deputy Dmitry Fucheji. Lutsyuk was assigned the task of neutralizing Odessa’s regional governor, Vladimir Nemirovsky, to prevent him from putting together an independent strategy that could disrupt the operation. Fucheji led the militants right to Greek Square where he was allegedly “wounded” (in order to evade responsibility for subsequent events).

The operation was originally scheduled for May 2 – the day of a soccer match, which would justify the presence of a large number of sports fans (“ultras”) downtown and would also mean there would be a minimal number of Odessa residents on the streets who were not involved in the operation, since the majority of the city’s population would be out of town enjoying their May Day holidays.
Operation

Train from Kharkov arrived in Odessa on May 2 at 8.00 am carrying fans of the Metallist soccer club, including some “ultras” who were taking part in the operation. In addition, militants from the “Dnieper-1” Battalion and Right Sector simultaneously entered the city in small groups. Some of the Self-Defense of Maidan militants also arrived from Kiev, most of them by car. That day the Odessa police were under strict orders not to stop cars with license plates from Kiev, Dnipropetrovsk, and Lvov.

In the afternoon, some of the fighters headed toward Sobornaya Square, where those taking part in the “March for a United Ukraine” were scheduled to gather. Their task was to organize the crowd and lead them to the barricades on Greek Square. A “special operations” group adorned with St. George ribbons donned their balaclavas and marched down Alexandrovsky Avenue. These were the “pro-Russian activists” seen in numerous photos and videos. The provocateurs wore red armbands on their sleeves in order to distinguish themselves from the real, Odessa-based activists. Likewise, the police who had insider information about the details of the operation sported red armbands as well. Unfortunately, some of the real activists, who were not privy to that information, gave in to the provocateurs’ urgings and rushed off to “stop the fascists”.

Many eyewitnesses recorded what happened next [7]. With the support of the police, the supposedly “pro-Russian” provocateurs lined up near the “Afina” shopping center at the intersection of Greek str. and Vice Admiral Zhukov line, where provocateurs from among the soccer fans, including those representing Right Sector and UNA-UNSO, attacked them (which was confirmed even by the pro-Maidan observers [8]). Firearms were used by both sides and both sides suffered fatalities.

The task of distracting the “honest” soccer fans from the game and directing the crowd toward Kulikovo Field had been fully accomplished. The provocateurs that had incited the crowd then retreated to the “Afina” shopping center, where they were later taken away by the police. They had suffered injuries but no fatalities.

While the confrontations were underway on Greek Square, a group of Right Sector thugs were readying the main part of the operation, code-named “Ha’ola” – from the phrase “Mizbeach Ha’ola”, which in Hebrew means “the altar of burnt offering”. They slipped into the House of Trade Unions through the back entrance and fortified their positions in the basement and the attic. This group contained only proven fighters who were experienced killers.

While the masses were moving through the city’s center from Greek Square to Kulikovo Field, some of the provocateurs got into cars and sped ahead of most of the crowd, rushing into the tent camp and inciting panic by shouting “Right Sector is on its way!” and “They’re coming to kill you!” and so on. Led by the provocateurs, many activists entered the House of Trade Unions instead of scattering throughout the city. Some of them went down to the basement from which no one emerged alive – there they were tortured, killed, and butchered with machetes. Others headed upstairs. Gasoline was mixed with napalm to form deadly, acrid carbon monoxide. The recipe for these deadly cocktails was created by chemists from Independence Square, but they were not used there. In Odessa, the mixture was employed for the first time and this was no accident: a massacre with a large number of fatalities was needed in order to terrorize the entire country.

The “battle” for the House of Trade Unions lasted several hours – during which time some of the militants pretended to mount a resistance by tossing Molotov cocktails from the roof, while others methodically butchered, strangled, and incinerated their victims. In order to ensure that the fire could not be extinguished, water was completely shut off to the building.

After “Ha’ola” was complete, the Right Sector murderers fled the building through the side and rear exits and left town. The police then entered the structure. The number that became the official death toll – 46 – included only the dead on the upper floors of the building. The majority of the victims, who were in the basement, were not counted. The exact number of dead is unlikely to ever be known, but most sources claim that between 120 and 130 were killed.
The truth cannot be concealed

The junta has privatized the police and the security service, but forgot about the prosecutor’s office. And now the acting attorney general, Oleh Makhnitsky has stated:

“This action [in Odessa] was not prepared at some internal level, it was a well-planned and coordinated action in which some authorities’ representatives have taken part.” [9]

It is unlikely that he will be permitted to name those who are truly responsible for the tragedy. But the junta in Kiev will not be able to completely conceal the truth about what happened in Odessa. This tragedy should be thoroughly investigated and those culpable should be brought before the international court for committing crimes against humanity. Nuremberg-2 is waiting for Turchinov & Co.

Source
антифашист


[1] “Crime in Odessa”, by Thierry Meyssan; “Genocide in Novorossiya and swan song of Ukrainian statehood”, Oriental Review, Voltaire Network, 7 and 14 May 2014.

[2] “Interpol office in Italy confirms Avakov’s arrest for extradition”, Interfax-Ukraine, 30 March 2012.

[3] “Андрей Парубий подарил добровольцам одесской самообороны современные бронежилеты”, Djdansky, YouTube, 24 April 2014.

[4] “Стрельба по протестующим в здании профсоюзов Одесса 2 мая 2014 года”, Андрей Бонд, YouTube, 3 May 2014.

[5] “Мыкола сотник правого сектора докладывает про ситуацию в Одессе 2 мая 2014 года”, Андрей Бонд, YouTube, 3 May 2014.

[6] “Задержана машина с огнестрельным оружием активистами Майдана - сюжет телеканала "112 Украина"”, 112 Украина, YouTube, 18 February 2014.

[7] “Odessa Inferno 18+ May 2, 2014”, André Fomine, YouTube, 6 May 2014.

[8] “Что в действительности произошло в Одессе вчера...”, Прямо сейчас!, 3 May 2014.

[9] “Odessa Tragedy Planned by Authorities’ Representatives – Kiev Official”, Ria-Novosti, 7 May 2014.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 15, 2014, 09:45:32 pm
Lmao, it even has jewish included. 10/10 they're out to get us.

Too bad the only thing missing from this oh-so-elaborate plot is an actual motive/aim, outside of killing a few protesters. Incidentally, the whole thing is profitable only for pro-russian forces.

Come on, what's next? Kiev is working with ALIENS and has actually planned both the loss of Crimea and the uprising in the east, so aliens can more easily abduct people there during the chaos?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 15, 2014, 10:08:27 pm
Pfft haha. Those sources were all priceless. Freaking Thierry Meyssan and RIA Novosti.....wtf is this garbage.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2014, 10:11:54 pm
Don't laugh guys, it's where Tovi gets his information
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jambi on May 15, 2014, 10:51:14 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 15, 2014, 05:32:33 pm
I see that Jambi has learned kyokushin while he has been away. This is good.

I always been a preacher of the ultimate truth, Xant. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: engurrand on May 15, 2014, 11:36:35 pm
did you guys see the video of the ukranian's getting sniped?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 15, 2014, 11:39:46 pm
Ok, I admit, I have some informations. But let's talk about yours : Let me see... "Putin is the new Evil Axis, let's do some shit".  I think it's a pretty good résumé of your media's propaganda. Have you anything else ?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2014, 12:51:34 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 15, 2014, 11:39:46 pm
Ok, I admit, I have some informations. But let's talk about yours : Let me see... "Putin is the new Evil Axis, let's do some shit".  I think it's a pretty good résumé of your media's propaganda. Have you anything else ?

I don't think you understand. Nobody here wanted to intervene in Ukraine before and during EuroMaydan, and I still don't see where is the evidence that the western governments turned a student protest into a putsch-machine armed to the teeth. It just sort of happens that now it's a necessity to help the country not getting sudeten'ed. Georgia and Crimea are already terrible precedents for stability in the region.

Quote from: Butan on May 15, 2014, 08:49:00 pm
Because else they are going to be instantly annexed in the next few days, WW3, communism-fascism-war-on-terror fear? You know, all the things we can read on this thread and everywhere in the free world about Russia and other baddies  :o

What are you trying to say ? Nothing happened to Ukraine ?

Quote from: Butan on May 15, 2014, 08:49:00 pm
Or you dont link those events to whats happening with Ukraine?  :P

It seems you don't.

Quote from: Butan on May 15, 2014, 08:49:00 pm
Everyone is forced to take a side, we must unite against UIF IRL!

It's a necessity for Russian neighbors until the expansionism stops. When I play EU4, small countries around me also tend to form coalitions pretty quick.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 16, 2014, 03:53:32 am
Today the civil war starts, the army of 30000 east protesters will atack national guard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 16, 2014, 04:46:38 am
I don't know bout that, seems that the regular people are finally done with this farce.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 16, 2014, 05:17:03 am
Biggest employer in Eastern Ukraine use his large working force manpower as anti-demonstrator police backed by government: a farce indeed.

Nice organisation if they manage to quell the unrest this way, but even if they win and the anti-Kiev go underground (either literally or not), the hundreds of deads arent going to be forgotten tomorrow. The divide already happened... even if Putin doesnt try to use it.

I dont see the movement dying in one day, maybe its the beginning of a new phase?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 16, 2014, 07:21:15 am
This was NATOs chance to prove they can do few shits and they blew it hard. Crimea was lost anyway, they should have sent troops and tanks into Donensk at an instant. The separatists would have layed down their arms or been severely demoralized to create further chaos and the situation could have been contained. They are brave, but they arent suicidal. Now you got these guys rising up all over Ukr cause they know Kievs troops wont be shooting at them a lot and NATO is busy picking its nose. The separatists are oldfashioned folk, from what ive gathered, u can make whatever the hell treaties u want with them, but unless u dont have fighters flying ontop of them and armor driving through their streets u wont gain their respect and nothing will stick.

And the russians advance would have surely been permanently stalled aswell.This isnt war(yet anyway). Both big players on the board dont want their troops killing eachother so it comes down to whoever drops their troops down to the area first gets it. Nobody unfortunately cares about the casualties of the ukrainians, but kill a few nato or russian troops and the shit would hit the fan bigtime to whoever is responsible. Sure russians would have been superpissed, but they are pissed now anyway. They'l just fabricate a reason to be pissed incase there isnt one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 16, 2014, 07:54:49 am
Huh? This is none of NATO's business. Ukraine is not a member. They couldn't have sent troops there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 16, 2014, 10:23:05 am
Quote from: Xant on May 16, 2014, 07:54:49 am
Huh? This is none of NATO's business. Ukraine is not a member. They couldn't have sent troops there.
And you, telling them what they could or could not do, are who? It's not unprecedented, that NATO sends in peackeepers, although in this case - it would not be a good idea, because there would be too much tension and too easy to stage provocations and similar shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 16, 2014, 10:41:04 am
Quote from: Xant on May 16, 2014, 07:54:49 am
Huh? This is none of NATO's business. Ukraine is not a member. They couldn't have sent troops there.
:P  my old friend nxnxnxnxnxn
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 16, 2014, 10:59:23 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 16, 2014, 10:23:05 am
And you, telling them what they could or could not do, are who? It's not unprecedented, that NATO sends in peackeepers, although in this case - it would not be a good idea, because there would be too much tension and too easy to stage provocations and similar shit.
Uh... what? I'm the voice of fact and reason. Proof? NATO didn't send in troops. NATO member states would never approve just sending in troops for shits and giggles there. Which is why they didn't send in troops.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 16, 2014, 03:17:19 pm
If Ukrainian force cant "shoot too much" at them, NATO can "shoot a bit more" since they dont share blood/relative/nationality, but then you forget that they arent member of NATO (YET...) and that a "peace-keeping" foreign force would probably light more fire than there is already, and even if they manage to stop the outbreak of violence by sheer intimidation/counter-violence, there will still be many problems to deal with afterward.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 16, 2014, 03:31:33 pm
Steel Workers in Mariupol, Ukraine seize the city and out Pro-Russian Militants (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?hp)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 16, 2014, 03:36:18 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 16, 2014, 04:46:38 am
I don't know bout that, seems that the regular people are finally done with this farce.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0

Stop spam!  :P Or are you just over-joyous about late events?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 16, 2014, 03:40:27 pm
"Stop spam!" Says Butan.

Oh the irony.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 16, 2014, 03:41:22 pm
No irony, 100% pure truth!

Sometimes I post in fast succession its true  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 16, 2014, 03:46:46 pm
Like now.

Omg you were right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 16, 2014, 03:52:54 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 16, 2014, 03:31:33 pm
Steel Workers in Mariupol, Ukraine seize the city and out Pro-Russian Militants (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?hp)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on May 16, 2014, 04:06:53 pm
This thread in a nutshell:  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 16, 2014, 04:58:17 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 16, 2014, 07:54:49 am
Huh? This is none of NATO's business. Ukraine is not a member. They couldn't have sent troops there.

Well Afganistan isnt a member too, yet they sent everything.

What goes on in Ukraine is damaging to its eastern allies. If they would have put a stop to it early it would have sent Russia a clear message to back off. And they would have. Pro-Russian separatists could start rising up all around Eastern Europe, cause they now know they can get away with it. The threat is there and with every town that Ukraine loses it increases everywhere, where the russians have influence. This little peptalk and the few troops NATO is giving to its allies right now, isnt too reassuring and its not intimidating to the enemy. This has almost no effect.

And Butan. If NATO foreign "peace-keepers" arent gonna be there, the Russian foreign "peace-keepers" are. And those "peace-keepers" are there to stay.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 16, 2014, 05:05:14 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 16, 2014, 04:58:17 pm
And Butan. If NATO foreign "peace-keepers" arent gonna be there, the Russian foreign "peace-keepers" are. And those "peace-keepers" are there to stay.

Contrary to Crimea, there isnt any in Eastern Ukraine right now. Prophetizing or wildly accusing still?

Also there is 2 different kind of foreign peace-keeping: peace-keeping which include shooting locals, and peace-keeping which include enforcing locals will.
Hint: one of them mean dead people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 16, 2014, 05:28:36 pm
I dont think they are wild accusations. If they arent any there atm(which is bullshit btw), they are very ready to be.

And that last 2 kind of thing stuff u said was garbage. Dunno how to even respond to that....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 16, 2014, 07:54:45 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 16, 2014, 05:28:36 pm
I dont think they are wild accusations. If they arent any there atm(which is bullshit btw), they are very ready to be.

And that last 2 kind of thing stuff u said was garbage. Dunno how to even respond to that....
Dude, just don't bother. Butan denied russian special forces ion Crimea even AFTER being shown putler admitting it :)

Also - he thinks, that its a natural and spontaneous that there are (or at least innitially WERE) roving bands of identically armed, dressed and well trained troops doing the occupations, before giving the buildings to the local "rebels". Also - the anti tank and grenade launcher skills are inherent when you live in eastern europe, thus - no biggie if that the locals use these.

See, completely easy to explain.

And the special unit that russia has prepared for exactly this kind of semi-warfare - that is WAY less likely explanation. Simply not worth the attention.

</irony>  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 16, 2014, 08:32:14 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 16, 2014, 07:54:49 am
Huh? This is none of NATO's business. Ukraine is not a member. They couldn't have sent troops there.

I agree with that (first time...). But think about Serbia, Libya or even Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 16, 2014, 08:48:29 pm
An apples to oranges comparison. Afghanistan is the business of NATO's biggest contributor, U.S. And most importantly, NATO is not going against Russia by sending its troops there, or any other powerful country. You can bet there would be no NATO peacekeepers in Serbia or Libya if Russia's troops were on the other side of that conflict, not unless they wanted WW3.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 16, 2014, 08:49:16 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 16, 2014, 08:32:14 pm
I agree with that (first time...). But think about Serbia, Libya or even Afghanistan.

Afganistan: DoWed by 1 member who called in other members. If they decline they would have lost 25 Prestige. (Insult Casus Belli on a coalition is bad!)
Libya: Primarly GB/France blowing up the army preventing something much like a Syria from happening.
Serbia: To Young, can't say, but something about genocide/ethinc conflict stopping w/ UN mandate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 16, 2014, 08:54:04 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 16, 2014, 05:28:36 pm
I dont think they are wild accusations. If they arent any there atm(which is bullshit btw), they are very ready to be.

And that last 2 kind of thing stuff u said was garbage. Dunno how to even respond to that....

I can appreciate an assumption and I share most of yours, but when you put no "if" and press the matter as an accepted and verified matter, you are wrong.



That may be garbage, but if there was NATO peacekeepers sent in Ukraine, that would be against the revolt. The russian forces in Crimea were for the revolt. In one case there is skirmishes, in the other there is not.
If NATO were to enter the scene right now, it would only have the name "peace"-keepers, because there would enter a fight, not continuing whats happening in an orderly manner. That is what I said.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 16, 2014, 09:33:05 pm
Somebody should count the Europa Universalis/Paradox RTS references.

I think there are at least five or so, if not more in this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 16, 2014, 09:55:56 pm
Serbia could use some NATO peacekeepers right now. Same goes for Bosnia. Shift focus from Ukraine a bit, please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 17, 2014, 02:06:02 am
Quote from: Christo on May 16, 2014, 09:33:05 pm
Somebody should count the Europa Universalis/Paradox RTS references.

I think there are at least five or so, if not more in this thread.

It is shameful to have to use such reference, but Europa Universalis diplomacy is so complex you might as well  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 03:49:11 am
Guys, what do you think about accidents in Ukraine on maidan when 100 people were killed by snipers, Odessa where 48 people were killed and 48 disapeared somewhere. Why new authorities can't say anything about investigations. Why there wasn't any corpse opening from maidan, they don't even know from what sniper riffles they were shot, they don't say what gas was used in Odessa, so people died in few seconds. Why they arrested only pro-russian activists, who were survived there. Many questions. Why no one from militia oficers were arrested, only one was, but he escaped somehow and left the country, and nobody can find him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 11:04:08 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 16, 2014, 08:49:16 pm
Afganistan: DoWed by 1 member who called in other members. If they decline they would have lost 25 Prestige. (Insult Casus Belli on a coalition is bad!)
Libya: Primarly GB/France blowing up the army preventing something much like a Syria from happening.
Serbia: To Young, can't say, but something about genocide/ethinc conflict stopping w/ UN mandate.

Afghanistan : If they declined they would have major bomb attack in their railways stations by a mysterious "Al Qaida" group, who push public opinion to war.
Libya : A UN mandate to "stop the possibility of massacre" which became "the right to destroy the country and to kill his leader"
Serbia : I don't remember of any UN mandate, because Russia would have probably rejected it.
Irak : No UN mandate. Who gives a Fuck ? France ? But we are the good guys, they are "Al Qaida".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 17, 2014, 12:57:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 03:49:11 am
Guys, what do you think about accidents in Ukraine on maidan when 100 people were killed by snipers, Odessa where 48 people were killed and 48 disapeared somewhere. Why new authorities can't say anything about investigations. Why there wasn't any corpse opening from maidan, they don't even know from what sniper riffles they were shot, they don't say what gas was used in Odessa, so people died in few seconds. Why they arrested only pro-russian activists, who were survived there. Many questions. Why no one from militia oficers were arrested, only one was, but he escaped somehow and left the country, and nobody can find him.
Do you get a memo from RT/LifeNews about "questions to ask westerners"? Can I subscribe to that black humor channel, ifn they have engrish vershion (funny gtanslate version available ofc)?

Quote from: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 11:04:08 am
Afghanistan : If they declined they would have major bomb attack in their railways stations by a mysterious "Al Qaida" group, who push public opinion to war.
Libya : A UN mandate to "stop the possibility of massacre" which became "the right to destroy the country and to kill his leader"
Serbia : I don't remember of any UN mandate, because Russia would have probably rejected it.
Irak : No UN mandate. Who gives a Fuck ? France ? But we are the good guys, they are "Al Qaida".
And that is relevant.... how? Last I remembered - putler did not want to be compared to the corrupt and rotten west, because his is the righteous one - create slav world for one slav nation with a thief as a king!  :rolleyes: How do you find comparison of your percieved western misdeeds and supposed russian misdeeds needed?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 01:02:45 pm
Just to say NATO can attack any country, anytime and for any reason.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 17, 2014, 01:09:19 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 01:02:45 pm
Just to say NATO can attack any country, anytime and for any reason.
And... because NATO can - so can russia? Since russia "did no evil" supposedly - how is this relevant?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 01:10:55 pm
That's absolutly not was i was saying.
It was about NATO intervention in Ukraine (or Crimea).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 17, 2014, 01:30:42 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 03:49:11 am
Guys, what do you think about accidents in Ukraine on maidan when 100 people were killed by snipers, Odessa where 48 people were killed and 48 disapeared somewhere. Why new authorities can't say anything about investigations. Why there wasn't any corpse opening from maidan, they don't even know from what sniper riffles they were shot, they don't say what gas was used in Odessa, so people died in few seconds. Why they arrested only pro-russian activists, who were survived there. Many questions. Why no one from militia oficers were arrested, only one was, but he escaped somehow and left the country, and nobody can find him.

Give it some months or at worst a few decades: truth is always finally hinted at.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 17, 2014, 01:37:55 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 01:02:45 pm
Just to say NATO can attack any country, anytime and for any reason.
You are the most hilarious conspiracy nut of 2014
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 05:13:51 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 17, 2014, 01:37:55 pm
You are the most hilarious conspiracy nut of 2014

Mmh ? What conspiracy ???
You were talking about the impossibility for NATO to act in Ukraine because Ukraine is not a NATO's member. I just prove that NATO can do whatever they want because they are strong enough to spit on international treaties.
I don't see any conspiracy here. Stop marijuana pls.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 05:47:53 pm
Just for information: fake head of the Odessa republic said that 2 of may 247 people were killed and new authorities in Kiev are guilty of it and they hide the facts
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 17, 2014, 06:19:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 05:47:53 pm
Just for information: Head of the Odessa republic said that 2 of may 247 people were killed and new authorities in Kiev are guilty of it and they hide the facts
(click to show/hide)
Head of the Odessa republic my ass.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
"April 21, 2014 Valery Kaur declared himself president-elect "People republic New Russia", the formation of which announced some Orthodox activists Odessa."

I declare myself King of West Finland!

OMG, this is jewel:
http://news.bigmir.net/ukraine/810862-Kaurov-stal-prezidentom--Odesskoj-narodnoj-respubliki-
Head of the Union of Orthodox Citizens of Ukraine Valery Kaurov Odessa from Moscow proclaimed the People's Republic, which he headed.
This decision was taken on the Kulikovo Field Meeting on Easter Day. Kaurov participated in the meeting remotely, via Skype, because he is hiding from the police in Russia.
In 2010 he ran for mayor of Odessa elections, gaining 1,827 votes (0.5%).

Nice one, Nicko, I hope you'll have such mayor\governor in you city one day.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 06:41:12 pm
But Segd, do you think he is lying about deathes? I corrected my mistake
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 17, 2014, 06:43:04 pm
When will you stop spamming this thread with ur opinions? Should just close it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 17, 2014, 06:45:05 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 05:13:51 pm
Mmh ? What conspiracy ???
You were talking about the impossibility for NATO to act in Ukraine because Ukraine is not a NATO's member. I just prove that NATO can do whatever they want because they are strong enough to spit on international treaties.
I don't see any conspiracy here. Stop marijuana pls.
Your logic skills are greatly lacking, as is apparently your sense of context. Are you seriously retarded enough not to see the difference between peacekeeping in Afghanistan, where their opponents are a couple thousand backwards mujahideen, and going into Ukraine in force and opposing a Russian invasion? The only way they could've done the latter is if Ukraine was a member.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 06:49:00 pm
"Peacekeeping" ??? lol , where have you seen peace in Afghanistan ? I see an invasion as Soviet Union did.
And I still don't see any russian invasion in Ukraine. Just some Greystone mercenaries...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 17, 2014, 06:51:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 06:41:12 pm
But Segd, do you think he is lying about deathes?
"Think"? lol. I bet, he's telling 100% bullshit. Crazy man tells you about 272 dead & 200+ wounded & you just believe him? Cmon, he is definitely brain-damaged. I would believe him only if he'll give 100% proofs of his words.
Do you believe that Zhirinovsky usually tells? Or Limonov, or Novodvorskaya?
http://www.newsru.com/russia/16may2014/dnipro.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 06:52:44 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 17, 2014, 06:51:17 pm
"Think"? lol. I bet, he's telling 100% bullshit. Crazy man tells you about 272 dead & 200+ wounded & you just believe him? Cmon, he is definitely brain-damaged. I would believe him only if he'll give 100% proofs of his words.
So you absolutely believe to new authorities in Kiev?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 06:55:44 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 16, 2014, 03:31:33 pm
Steel Workers in Mariupol, Ukraine seize the city and out Pro-Russian Militants (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-workers-take-to-streets-to-calm-Mariupol.html?hp)

That kind of action sounds like pseudo-opposition in Venezuela, when the Oil industry sent thousands of his employees in the streets against Chavez. It could be a similar action.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 17, 2014, 07:00:03 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 06:49:00 pm
"Peacekeeping" ??? lol , where have you seen peace in Afghanistan ? I see an invasion as Soviet Union did.
And I still don't see any russian invasion in Ukraine. Just some Greystone mercenaries...
Way to completely miss the point, retard. Call it peacekeeping, an invasion, a genocide, doesn't change my point one bit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on May 17, 2014, 07:03:22 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 06:52:44 pm
So you absolutely believe to new authorities in Kiev?
Why should I? I support them, but it doesn't mean that they are angels. They are just  better that separatists. But you posted this Russia Today crap(& this time RT really shitted their reputation), If you believe him, then you are probably as crazy as he.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 17, 2014, 07:16:54 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 11:04:08 am
Afghanistan : If they declined they would have major bomb attack in their railways stations by a mysterious "Al Qaida" group, who push public opinion to war.
Libya : A UN mandate to "stop the possibility of massacre" which became "the right to destroy the country and to kill his leader"
Serbia : I don't remember of any UN mandate, because Russia would have probably rejected it.
Irak : No UN mandate. Who gives a Fuck ? France ? But we are the good guys, they are "Al Qaida".

You do know Libya's leader was killed by his own Internal Revolt right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya
Serbia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia (AKA there was no UN Mandate)
Iraq: You don't need a UN mandate to DoW someone. You just take a stability hit if you don't have a Casus Belli. Show Superiority is a Valid Casus Belli, FYI.
Afghanistan: A waste, but it was to remove the local support of "terrorists" from the Government. Once again, Diplomatic Insult Casus Belli is bad to do when you are the target of a Coalition against you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 17, 2014, 07:23:16 pm
Quote from: Segd on May 17, 2014, 07:03:22 pm
Why should I? I support them, but it doesn't mean that they are angels. They are just  better that separatists. But you posted this Russia Today crap(& this time RT really shitted their reputation), If you believe him, then you are probably as crazy as him.
I don't know whom to believe. But I think new authorities are puppets of USA, Putin didn't return the army from the border to their location as he claimed before. Some russian politics send weapons to the East Ukraine. I think there are some chechen fighters (volunteers) too. So by the force Kiev won't get East Ukraine back anyhow. Donetsk has about 30000 army, Lugansk about 40000 army. Accidents in Odessa and on Miadan stopped in investigation, so many days have already gone, so I think nothing will be changed. Why new authorities appoints oligarchs to senior positions? Maybe it was just sharing between oligarchs.
Quote from: Segd on May 17, 2014, 06:51:17 pm
Do you believe that Zhirinovsky usually tells? Or Limonov, or Novodvorskaya?
Lol, you know that Zhirinovsky is our clown, and I don't even know who are these Limonov and Novodvorskaya
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 17, 2014, 09:35:10 pm
70000, is it?

Sorry for russian video, but I really want to hear Nicko's opinion about this bastard complaining that people from Donetsk region don't want to fight against ukrainian army.


Interested thing, he admitted that from those locals from Donetsk region that joined his army there are less than 10 competent officers.
So the question is, who are all those strange guys that capture towns, kill our soldiers and look suspiciously like some special forces? Any ideas?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 17, 2014, 10:30:54 pm
And its hard to discuss if we dont have a full translation. Youtube subtitles arent coming close enough.


Why would we listen to him more than others though? Everytime someone says something in a video/audio/text which goes against someone's views he is ad homine-ed to death. A curriculum vitae is now necessary to believe anything on this thread  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 17, 2014, 10:34:45 pm
Quote
Why would we listen to him more than others though?

Probably because he is leader of "rebels"? Or at least their military commander.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 18, 2014, 04:29:45 am
Quote from: serr on May 17, 2014, 09:35:10 pm
70000, is it?

Sorry for russian video, but I really want to hear Nicko's opinion about this bastard complaining that people from Donetsk region don't want to fight against ukrainian army.


Interested thing, he admitted that from those locals from Donetsk region that joined his army there are less than 10 competent officers.
So the question is, who are all those strange guys that capture towns, kill our soldiers and look suspiciously like some special forces? Any ideas?
Most of them are Ukranians. I think nobody wants to fight. They took only their own towns where they live. As I know from my friend in Rostov it's about 10000 people went to East ukraine, but thay are all volunteers. Also there are boeviks. But if you think that's all about Russia, then you are wrong. It's people from East are rising against new authorities. As for me New authorities could save Crimea and East, but they are so incompetetnt, they don't know what to do. My friend is video operator which live in Kiev, he has russian passport, he says that he can't leave his home, because he was beaten once by youngsters, he was stopped many times for interrogation. He has wife and two daughters. and he is afraid of them. So? You want to say that there is no discrimination? If only investigation of deathes were clear on Maidan and in Odessa, I think you would know what your new authorities look like.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2014, 07:30:23 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 17, 2014, 06:49:00 pm
"Peacekeeping" ??? lol , where have you seen peace in Afghanistan ? I see an invasion as Soviet Union did.
And I still don't see any russian invasion in Ukraine. Just some Greystone mercenaries...

You know man, I can respect a person thats anti-west, US, Europe. But dont overdo it please. Just because u dont like the West doesnt mean u should just blindly agree and justify to everything the russians do. And also u may consider western sources to be shit, but that doesnt make the russian sources any more legit. I quess thats why u so retarded, those sources are significantly bigger horseshit and that is a very proven and known fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 07:32:19 am
I'm from the West. What I just hate is Imperialism, lies and crimes.
If you read me right, my sources comes from very different countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2014, 07:38:25 am
And yet you completely justify russians annexing shit at the central of Europe during the 21st century so they can rebuild their crappy empire of poverty. Noboby is more freaking imperialistic then Russia. In the modern world russia has one of the most corrupt goverments. Not to mention compared to western media, russian media straight up fabricates its facts from its ass for propaganda thats almost as bad as in the NK. And you are giving shit to the West? Are u just looking for attention or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 07:46:34 am
If you talk about Crimea, they asked their independance, then to join Russia. The referendum was legit. But, the West doesn't like Democracy, obviously. They support a violent Coup and reject an election...
France annexed Mayotte island last decade, after a local referendum. What's the problem with that ? I think you are more Russia hating than you think I'm West hating.

Imperialism is not only a question of military invasion. It's also about spying, economy and propaganda. CIA and NSA are present all over the world, they try to sign unfair "Free-trade" agreement secretly with all their allies etc. I mean, this is a global empire. Russia may have a local influence but I really not fear this country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2014, 08:36:27 am
Like I said before in this thread. This is how russia technically annexes lands. This is how it has done this before and this is how its doing it now. Nothing about these referendums is ever legit. But your brain cant comprehend this. Read a bit of history(again not from russian sources), Russia has taken independence from many countries by these "legit referendums". The fact that u arent seeing this through and u claim these to be legit means u are significantly more blind then u think.

Oh and the KGB is not present? Are u kiddin me man. They have shitton of agents in basically every neibhouring country. Basically working to destabilize it. And there are facts and proof of that. And so what if the US is a global empire? Whats to fear about if u live in the western world? They will never invade u, nor will their CIA and NSA agents work to destabilize your country(again if u are in a western country). And the US will never claim a piece of land for itself. I live in a country next to russia and its a pretty horrible neibhour. Would take that CIA NSA USA propagandacrap u fear so much any day of the week compared to that.

 I belive your hate for the US is clouding your judgement in general.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 09:12:13 am
I don't want to be part of any empire. I don't want their law, I don't want their shitty GMO and other poisons. I don't want to have a drone flying over my head, ready to shoot any "terrorist" suspect.
Do you know that the USA have more people in jail than Russia and China together ? ! Number 1 in the world with  0.9% of the population.What kind of democracy is that ? This country is the most violent one in the world, inside and outside his borders . And you say it's not a problem to be ruled by this bunch of rogues ?

I may have no brain, but I know, at least, that KGB doesn't exist anymore. But can you remind me wich country was recently invaded by Russia ? We had this discussion already in this thread, how can you say that kind of bullshit again ?
I don't know from wich country you are. But if it's a NATO member I don't know why you fear an hypothetic invasion.

The core of the problem is all those "free-trade" agreement that the West try to enact in his control area. They are "negociated" in secret, behind the people will. They want to destroy all trade protections (social, ecological, cultural, health) to the benefit of their oligarchy. They don't need any military invasion for that. But they can do it if you resist. Or drive pseudo-revolutions like everywhere in the arab world, Venezuela and... Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 18, 2014, 09:42:34 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 07:46:34 am
If you talk about Crimea, they asked their independance, then to join Russia. The referendum was legit.

No, it wasn't. It was done under military occupation and international observers could not fulfill their mission. Neutral countries do not recognize either the referendum or the current de facto status of Crimea. About the observers, it's quite the irony that an invading force organizing a referendum "against fascism" invited neo-nazis as observers :

Quote
Russian state-owned media and referendum organizers claimed that from nearly 70[100] to 135[101] international observers monitored the referendum without reporting any violations,[102] but objectivity of these has been questioned, because some of them had ties to far-right groups.[103][104][105] These included Luc Michel, formerly of the French neo-Nazi party Fédération d'action nationale et européenne (currently supporting National Bolshevism), Enrique Ravello, formerly of the Spanish neo-Nazi party CEDADE (currently of the far-right Platform for Catalonia) and Béla Kovács of the Hungarian far-right party Jobbik.[106]

Oh wait, of course they did. European neo-nazis are base anti-Americans and idiots. Unlike the equally anti-American far left, which would probably question things a little bit more at least to avoid losing face with the far-left intellectuals.


By the way while we are at it, some more related videogame gems, from Tropico

Quote
"The regime is afraid of the people because it knows that free and fair elections will bring about its end." Viktor Yanukovych

Quote
"We must improve our lives and we will do it together - all of our citizens and myself as president." Viktor Yanukovych
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2014, 09:51:21 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 09:12:13 am
But can you remind me wich country was recently invaded by Russia ?
Ehh Ukraine, Georgia...
Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 09:12:13 am
They don't need any military invasion for that. But they can do it if you resist. Or drive pseudo-revolutions like everywhere in the arab world, Venezuela and... Ukraine.
Thats extremely debateable

Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 09:12:13 am
I don't want to be part of any empire. I don't want their law, I don't want their shitty GMO and other poisons. I don't want to have a drone flying over my head, ready to shoot any "terrorist" suspect.
Do you know that the USA have more people in jail than Russia and China together ? ! Number 1 in the world with  0.9% of the population.What kind of democracy is that ? This country is the most violent one in the world, inside and outside his borders . And you say it's not a problem to be ruled by this bunch of rogues ?
And what does US high incarceration rate have to do with anything in this thread? Its high cause they keep people in prisons longer and they are more strict about drugviolations then any other country. Not because they staple everybody enemies of the state. It has nothing to do with their flawed democracy. So I dont really see where u were going with this. This does not relate to foregin affairs. Theres really no cure for people like u.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 18, 2014, 10:28:13 am
Why do you even bother with Tovi? He's retarded. He still thinks those Russian soldiers in Crimea were local militia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2014, 10:47:19 am
Cause I got free time atm and im perfecting my second language. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 01:04:06 pm
Probably without those special forces, the referendum would have been impossible. Actually the fascist gvt of Kiev shortened water in Crimea. That's a provocation.
 Meanwhile they are whining about russian gas...

400 Academi's mercenaries are now around Slaviantsk for guerrilla operations (source : Bild Am Sonntag. A well known pro-russia newspaper  :mrgreen:)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 18, 2014, 01:34:41 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 01:04:06 pm
Probably without those special forces, the referendum would have been impossible. Actually the fascist gvt of Kiev shortened water in Crimea. That's a provocation.
 Meanwhile they are whining about russian gas...

400 Academi's mercenaries are now around Slaviantsk for guerrilla operations (source : Bild Am Sonntag. A well known pro-russia newspaper  :mrgreen:)
Bild am Sonntag is known for making up stories, paying witnesses and even blackmailing celebrities. Keep your sources coming, mate. Highly entertaining.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 01:52:58 pm
They should have received money directly from Putin's pocket !  All those journalist working for Putin. It must be a conspiracy.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 18, 2014, 02:00:08 pm
Tovi's sources are like the "who's who" of who-not-to-listen-to
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 18, 2014, 02:19:31 pm
From someone who dont know any of those questionnable sources, it looks like whatever will say Tovi it will never be good enough  :D

But I agree with Tibe, its hard to agree when you are over-enthusiast in stating facts that seem far-stretched to others.
It would be easier to present each others views if the debate growed milder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 02:38:10 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 18, 2014, 02:00:08 pm
Tovi's sources are like the "who's who" of who-not-to-listen-to

The difference between you and me : I give informations that facts confirm later. And you, you just deny everything without saying anything pertinent.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 18, 2014, 03:44:17 pm
Uh-huh. Which information have facts confirmed later?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 18, 2014, 04:49:02 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 02:38:10 pm
The difference between you and me : I give informations that facts confirm later. And you, you just deny everything without saying anything pertinent.

Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
You mean like US empire ? They can invade Irak without any legit (just one exemple). Oh yes i'm french so I like Russia and I hate hamburgers.
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.
When Kosovo or south Sudan voted for independance it was a wonderfull victory for democracy. But in Crimea, it's different, it's RUSSIA, those infamous commies, the new axis of EVIL. Please God help America and is buffon John Kerry (Skull and Bones inc.)

Stay classy Tovi.

Stay classy.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 18, 2014, 05:36:17 pm
Yep, that quote is a perfect demonstration of Tovi's knowledge.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 18, 2014, 06:00:58 pm
I am thankful for that awesome quote for my signature.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 06:27:52 pm
And it's true, East Germany has been annexed. So when a german territory wants to join Germany it's not a problem. Why when a russian territory wants to join Russia it becomes one ?

The German reunification seems obvious today, but I can remember it wasn't the case in 1989.
In the Future the return of Crimea to Russia will appear logical aswell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 18, 2014, 06:30:56 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 06:40:55 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 18, 2014, 06:47:18 pm
Eat your baguette pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 18, 2014, 06:50:00 pm
That's racist
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 18, 2014, 06:52:16 pm
Go fuck yourself with a durian
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 18, 2014, 06:52:45 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 18, 2014, 06:50:00 pm
That's racist

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2014, 08:23:43 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 06:27:52 pm
And it's true, East Germany has been annexed. So when a german territory wants to join Germany it's not a problem. Why when a russian territory wants to join Russia it becomes one ?

The German reunification seems obvious today, but I can remember it wasn't the case in 1989.
In the Future the return of Crimea to Russia will appear logical aswell.
:|
Now you are just scaring me man... Please for the love of god...no more. Il freaking pay you to shut up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 18, 2014, 08:23:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 06:27:52 pm
And it's true, East Germany has been annexed. So when a german territory wants to join Germany it's not a problem. Why when a russian territory wants to join Russia it becomes one ?

The German reunification seems obvious today, but I can remember it wasn't the case in 1989.
In the Future the return of Crimea to Russia will appear logical aswell.

while i have some issues how the whole reunification thing was done, but the main point here is that the whole country has joined another one and not only a part of it (for example Thuringia because it was occupied by the americans during the war).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 18, 2014, 11:11:27 pm
As everyone knows, East Germany was liberated from the clutches of the oppressive West Germans by glorious Soviet Union in WW2. They lived peacefully in bliss until the 90's, when a covert CIA operation saw the Berlin Wall fall (along with Soviet Union, the greatest loss to humanity in known history!), exposing the eastern germans to Western German agression. Not before long, West Germany, the fascist puppet of USA, could forcefully annex East Germany. East Germans have been oppressed ever since. Such a terrible crime against humanity, covered up by CIA controlled media worldwide.

___________
Sources:
RT.com
AMTV/Christopher Greene
Tovi
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 18, 2014, 11:40:53 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 18, 2014, 11:11:27 pm
As everyone knows, East Germany was liberated from the clutches of the oppressive West Germans by glorious Soviet Union in WW2. They lived peacefully in bliss until the 90's, when a covert CIA operation saw the Berlin Wall fall (along with Soviet Union, the greatest loss to humanity in known history!), exposing the eastern germans to Western German agression. Not before long, West Germany, the fascist puppet of USA, could forcefully annex East Germany. East Germans have been oppressed ever since. Such a terrible crime against humanity, covered up by CIA controlled media worldwide.

___________
Sources:
RT.com
AMTV/Christopher Greene
Tovi

;_;

beautiful.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 18, 2014, 11:45:23 pm
That was really funny in more than one way  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 19, 2014, 12:54:10 pm
Meanwhile... new questions arise...

WHY is Denis Pushilin asking for MOAR men for his bullshit? 9/10 EvE experts agree that if FC starts crying that ppl are not joining fleets - alliance folds within a month!

WHO is  the mysterious stranger Aleksander Borodaj? How come he smells of moscow, is from moscow, is a russian "consultant" and yet... had his hand in Crimea story and now joining BS in easterns Ukraine + announces "I am not sent by putler, I'm on my own"...

Watch closely as some propaganda-aided answers are given! OOOoooooorr.... they are NOT GIVEN, which is an even better answer in itself!

</creative_mood>
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 19, 2014, 06:34:02 pm
For russian speakers and french readers.

Of course, the source is not 100% sure, as usual.




Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on May 19, 2014, 07:10:57 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27467807#TWEET1132644
Do you reckon it will happen? Have the eastern regions been destabilised enough that Russia is confident that the federalists will get their way?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 19, 2014, 08:56:24 pm
Quote from: Moncho on May 19, 2014, 07:10:57 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27467807#TWEET1132644
Do you reckon it will happen? Have the eastern regions been destabilised enough that Russia is confident that the federalists will get their way?

There was still no evidence of withdrawal a few days ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 20, 2014, 12:21:24 am
As we can see in my last video,the Putin strategy is not clear, even for russians or pro-russian people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 20, 2014, 08:40:59 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 20, 2014, 12:21:24 am
As we can see in my last video,the Putin strategy is not clear, even for russians or pro-russian people.
What exactly is not clear for you? That putler appreciates a friendly slav country nearby and thus want it in chaos, deprived of its own choice to choose its future, dependend on great russia and poor as it was previously? Whats not clear? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 20, 2014, 02:41:30 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 20, 2014, 08:40:59 am
What exactly is not clear for you? That putler appreciates a friendly slav country nearby and thus want it in chaos, deprived of its own choice to choose its future, dependend on great russia and poor as it was previously? Whats not clear? :rolleyes:
Is Putin date ur mom? why u so angry on him  :lol:

(click to show/hide)
ДНР culture minister   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 20, 2014, 03:05:53 pm
Hot, redhead, curvy. Molly's type :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 20, 2014, 03:14:47 pm
I'd tap dat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Cicero on May 20, 2014, 03:19:16 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 20, 2014, 02:41:30 pm
Is Putin date ur mom? why u so angry on him  :lol:

(click to show/hide)
ДНР culture minister   :P
I would fuck that so hard even yogurt turn to ayran in his pussy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on May 20, 2014, 04:01:28 pm
His?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 20, 2014, 09:50:53 pm
Gunmen capture Hungarian in Ukraine (http://www.politics.hu/20140520/gunmen-capture-hungarian-in-ukraine/)

It's on, a TEK squad sent to Ukraine?

TEK means Counter-terrorism Centre, these guys basically.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 20, 2014, 10:45:26 pm
Quote from: Tomas_Miles_again on May 20, 2014, 04:01:28 pm
His?
Freudian slip.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 20, 2014, 10:51:42 pm
Nice US gear.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 09:10:07 am
Quote from: Butan on May 20, 2014, 10:51:42 pm
Nice US gear.


(click to show/hide)
Le Buta delivers...

Just FYI - random picture of TEK practice taken from internet IS NOT proof of TEK being involved in Ukraine. Now that unknown gunmen have captured a hungarian ciziten - TEK has been rounded up and sent to be on the ready to move, in case need be. Same was threatened by german SASKSK (military) or GSG9 (police) (at least according to Molly :P ) when german observers were captured and then suddenly released after celebrating local "would be leader" birthday. They were guests you know. One even had to be release earlier because separatists could not procure insulin shots for him... True story!

Quote from: Vovka on May 20, 2014, 02:41:30 pm
Is Putin date ur mom? why u so angry on him  :lol:

(click to show/hide)
ДНР culture minister   :P
You get two + from me. Actually bringing "your mom" jokes in here again and then a slight nudge towards fapoclypse  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 09:36:36 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 09:10:07 am
Same was threatened by german SAS when german observers were captured [...]
That would be the KSK (military) or GSG9 (police).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 21, 2014, 12:12:25 pm
Irony detector malfunction  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 12:19:25 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 21, 2014, 12:12:25 pm
Irony detector malfunction  :P
Didn't you know, that when using irony on the internets you must put a proper tag after it.
</irony>

It does not work otherwise. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 12:52:36 pm
The irony was hardly achieved by using a wrong term.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 21, 2014, 01:08:06 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 21, 2014, 01:53:47 pm
The attitude of the various armed groups towards journalists is quite telling of how much they desire their actions to be seen or not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 02:36:17 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 21, 2014, 01:53:47 pm
The attitude of the various armed groups towards journalists is quite telling of how much they desire their actions to be seen or not.
I think it also depends on journalists... If ((you are from RT or LifeNews or carry some anti-tank/anti-air missiles in the trunk) and pretend to be a journalist) - you would get similar treatment to the way original reporter for Vice News in Ukraine dispatch was treated by separatists... But yeah, if one is willing to trust western media over the one owned by putler - difference is there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 21, 2014, 02:51:14 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 21, 2014, 01:08:06 pm
dat cocksucker! where is ololovsky!&!

Quote from: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 02:36:17 pm
I think it also depends on journalists... If ((you are from RT or LifeNews or carry some anti-tank/anti-air missiles in the trunk) and pretend to be a journalist) - you would get similar treatment to the way original reporter for Vice News in Ukraine dispatch was treated by separatists... But yeah, if one is willing to trust western media over the one owned by putler - difference is there.
in chocolate chip cookie Russia each journalist have anti-tank/anti-air missiles in the trunk, cos he must defend the truth from the zhido-masons, it is normal
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 21, 2014, 04:18:18 pm
Where is trololovski ?  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 04:52:51 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 21, 2014, 04:18:18 pm
Where is trololovski ?  :(

Maybe... he got trolled hard? TOO hard ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 21, 2014, 05:06:41 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 21, 2014, 05:17:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 21, 2014, 05:06:41 pm
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THIS IS LEGIT VOTING
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2014, 05:18:52 pm
That is slavic way, as I said they aren't any different from Russians :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 21, 2014, 05:23:34 pm
Quote
Voting for other deputies is prohibited by law.[50] Despite this deputies have stated they could not/did take part in votes although their votes were registered in parliament[50][51] and the phenomenon did became notorious in Ukraine (sometimes referred too as "piano voting").[52] In April 2011 a vote of a deputy was registered although the man had died four days before the voting.[53][54] A bill on introducing voting of lawmakers with help of a touch-sensitive key was not passed in mid-March 2011.[55] Since 22 February 2013 procedural measures have been implemented to prevent deputies voting for absent deputies.[56] Following up on measures taken in December 2012.[57]

It does sound silly to me to not allow deputies to vote by proxy though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 21, 2014, 05:30:01 pm
Well, contrary to the Duma, there is actually some kind of "real" voting action in place :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 21, 2014, 06:36:16 pm
- So, in our constitution is written that not less than 50% of the population of the country have to come to vote for president  :|
- But people won't go to vote for president, except western regions  :(
- Hm, then we have to make correction in our constitution, so if 1 man will vote then voting will be legit, who say "YES"  :idea:
PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH
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-  :twisted: mission completed  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 09:02:15 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 21, 2014, 06:36:16 pm
- So, in our constitution is written that not less than 50% of the population of the country have to come to vote for president  :|
- But people won't go to vote for president, except western regions  :(
- Hm, then we have to make correction in our constitution, so if 1 man will vote then voting will be legit, who say "YES"  :idea:
PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH PUSH
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

-  :twisted: mission completed  :lol:
So HOLD THEM FUCKING ACCOUNTABLE. Do not elect them next time. Press legal action against them. We had similar "practice" in our country - it was QUITE widely practiced. Ended VERY abruptly after 1 guy on vacations in bahamas "voted" against a law demanding that members of parliament would not take vacations during the sessions of parliament... Talk about irony I guess. In the end - he was thrown out of parliament, made an example of, now everyone is VERY strict with this rule. End of story.

And as to Molly - I do not elect proxies. I elect the guy who I expect will vote.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 22, 2014, 08:03:00 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 21, 2014, 09:02:15 pm
So HOLD THEM FUCKING ACCOUNTABLE. Do not elect them next time. Press legal action against them. We had similar "practice" in our country - it was QUITE widely practiced. Ended VERY abruptly after 1 guy on vacations in bahamas "voted" against a law demanding that members of parliament would not take vacations during the sessions of parliament... Talk about irony I guess. In the end - he was thrown out of parliament, made an example of, now everyone is VERY strict with this rule. End of story.

And as to Molly - I do not elect proxies. I elect the guy who I expect will vote.
we dont need members of parliament who press buttons. Only the most lazy one press them for all others while the rest build schools and hospitals
(click to show/hide)
plant tree
(click to show/hide)
drive girls up to the house (dangerous to walk alone at night)
(click to show/hide)


funny shitt about anti missile http://www.km.ru/world/2014/05/21/protivostoyanie-na-ukraine-2013-14/740513-ukrainskie-propagandisty-staratelnye-uche on russian use google!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 24, 2014, 02:59:49 pm
Guess who's back


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2014, 03:19:10 pm
Yolotrovsky would be asking questions to the bolt about the bullets if the bolt could talk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 24, 2014, 05:31:27 pm
And that is why we like him  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 26, 2014, 06:14:53 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27569057 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27569057)
Wow, very chocolate chip cookie!



I heard that Svoboda got about 1% or so of total votes. Wow total nazi occupation of Ukraine. Russia fail harder pls.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 10:52:12 am
Quote from: Christo on May 26, 2014, 06:14:53 am
(click to show/hide)
If short she say: Few minutes ago on the site "ЦИК" (Central Election Commission) appeared infographics (on monitor) and it is completely contrary to the data that we have after a survey of voters. Cristo fail harder pls.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 26, 2014, 11:12:15 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 10:52:12 am
If short she say: Few minutes ago on the site "ЦИК" (Central Election Commission) appeared infographics (on monitor) and it is completely contrary to the data that we have after a survey of voters. Cristo fail harder pls.

Vovka stop drinking or something maybe and then you'd realize what I meant with that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 11:18:15 am
Quote from: Christo on May 26, 2014, 11:12:15 am
Vovka stop drinking or something maybe and then you'd realize what I meant with that.
u talk what Svoboda got 1% votes on presidential elections ... and who drank today? )))

lol funny
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 26, 2014, 11:19:42 am
I said I "heard" something.

Then you retailated with something that is completely unrelated to the video. Maybe read the sentence before the "Russia fail" part.

I can imagine why you didn't, though. No need to take it so personally.

I guess saying "stop being Russian" is not going to bring anything to the table, but at least try to read.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 11:37:01 am
Quote from: Christo on May 26, 2014, 11:19:42 am
I said I "heard" something.
Then you retailated with something that is completely unrelated to the video. Maybe read the sentence before the "Russia fail" part.
I can imagine why you didn't, though. No need to take it so personally.
I guess saying "stop being Russian" is not going to bring anything to the table, but at least try to read.

  U post video where russian channel show 37% votes for Yarosh, so ppls who sit here and dont known russian may think what they claim that the elections leading chocolate chip cookies... so i just translate it for u.
 so u post video completely unrelated to the ur words... and i will bold for u again Svoboda got 1% votes on presidential elections. Also no one has ever claimed that a most of Ukrainians chocolate chip cookies, but they are among the government and people close to them. So I think many would agree that during the Second World War, not every chocolate chip cookie - a German and not every German is a chocolate chip cookie. Also read about Family of new ukranian president nice reading ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 26, 2014, 11:54:14 am
Again, I have heard something. I didn't say that it's my opinion, or my thought at all.

Putin's reason for the annexation and attack of crimea was what again? Yes defense from the cruel evil nazeees.

So, where are they again?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 12:08:59 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 26, 2014, 11:54:14 am
Again, I have heard something. I didn't say that it's my opinion, or my thought at all.
Putin's reason for the annexation and attack of crimea was what again? Yes defense from the cruel evil nazeees.
So, where are they again?
in my heart! Hail Putin!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 26, 2014, 01:03:39 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 26, 2014, 06:14:53 am
I heard that Svoboda got about 1% or so of total votes. Wow total nazi occupation of Ukraine. Russia fail harder pls.

Svoboda is the only populist/nationalist party? Am I reading your post right?...
Its good that the most obviously bad political entity are shunned in the presidential election of Ukraine, but its not all.


First declarations of the new president who want peace in the east : never recognise Crimea as Russian, new anti-terrorist operation to de-occupy Ukraine, Russian to send back their soldiers in their barracks, Ukraine to prepare to defend their sovereignty...

Such diplomatic skill, much peace, so "a new way of living"  :P

Serr was right in predicting Poroshenko victory, but from the few I've read from him in the past hours, he doesnt seem to be neutral nor to want peace at all. It looks like an even stronger continuation of what the interim government did in the past weeks. Its not looking good at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 26, 2014, 02:03:37 pm
Quote
First declarations of the new president who want peace in the east : never recognise Crimea as Russian, new anti-terrorist operation to de-occupy Ukraine, Russian to send back their soldiers in their barracks, Ukraine to prepare to defend their sovereignty...

So, you think he had to:
1) Recognize Crimea as russian and provoke another maidan
2) Stop anti-terrorist operation, let separatists do whatever they want and provoke full scale civil war on half of our territories
3) Ignore russian actions
4) Tell that our sovereignty is not important and shouldn't be defended
Does it sound better, really?

Poroshenko has very difficult task and I'm not sure if he can accomplish it, but I'm quite sure that among other candidates he has best chances.
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on May 26, 2014, 02:07:30 pm
Unfortunatly it would seem Serr is right, in that Poro has a really tough job that doesn't seem possible at the moment. I just hope he backs down to be honest, sovereignty is fine and well and w/e, but if UKR starts a shooting match with RUSS it isn't going to end well for anyone except Putin tbh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 26, 2014, 02:13:22 pm
Quote from: serr on May 26, 2014, 02:03:37 pm
So, you think he had to:
1) Recognize Crimea as russian and provoke another maidan
2) Stop anti-terrorist operation, let separatists do whatever they want and provoke full scale civil war on half of our territories
3) Ignore russian actions
4) Tell that our sovereignty is not important and shouldn't be defended
Does it sound better, really?

Poroshenko has very difficult task and I'm not sure if he can accomplish it, but I'm quite sure that among other candidates he has best chances.


Serr, you must know there is a middle ground between encouraging hostility toward Russia using nationalist speech, and offering total and unconditionnal surrender of Crimea and East regions to Russia.

The first declaration of a president if often a clue to what he will be doing next. If he wanted to use the diplomatic path, he wouldnt have jumped off like that, he even implied war quite directly.
In doing so, he is increasing the chance it happens. He is being as irresponsible and populist as the previous interim president.
Maybe it is just a bluff, and then he will send diplomats behind the curtains, offering solutions, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 26, 2014, 02:17:32 pm
Quote
The first declaration of a president if often a clue to what he will be doing next. If he wanted to use the diplomatic path, he wouldnt have jumped on Russia throat like that, he even implied war quite directly.

It seems I missed something, could you give a link please?

Also, he is not president yet. While it is already clear he won, not all votes have been counted yet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 02:37:43 pm
a few months ago was a ban on the import into Russia of his chocolates, the ban lifted so Poroshenko and Putin has deal already long time ago. At best, he would sell his business in Russia (3 candy factory) friend of Putin, he already swear what he will do it right after election as president. At worst, a couple parts of the Ukraine ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 02:39:56 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 26, 2014, 02:13:22 pm

Serr, you must know there is a middle ground between encouraging hostility toward Russia using nationalist speech, and offering total and unconditionnal surrender of Crimea and East regions to Russia.

The first declaration of a president if often a clue to what he will be doing next. If he wanted to use the diplomatic path, he wouldnt have jumped off like that, he even implied war quite directly.
In doing so, he is increasing the chance it happens. He is being as irresponsible and populist as the previous interim president.
Maybe it is just a bluff, and then he will send diplomats behind the curtains, offering solutions, but I doubt it.
Lets imagine Butan, that you have a flat of 6 rooms.
Lets imagine you exchanges 1 room of yours for 1 of mine (I own a flat of 60 rooms on the same floor). Call that room you got "Crimea" *HINT No1*.
Lets imagine, that after some years I say "fuck this law, fuck this document, I got more powar, more rooms, I take mine "Crimea" room back". Because you started listening to "wrong natssszsseeee muzik".
Lets imagine, that you are angry about that.
Then, while you are having a conflict with your room mates, who have been living with you in other two rooms - I promise them, that I will defend them from you if they are oppressed and give them some fighting gear and so on.
Lets imagine, that once you get your act together - I start demanding, that you take a middle ground with the two room-mates and decrease their loan, because "THERE IS A MIDDLE GROUND AND YOUR ARE BAD AND YOU LISTEN TO WRONG MUZIK". You have to give them discount. Because I tell so. And your neighbor from french flat says you have to take the middle ground too. And also - fuck laws, they live there so they have rights.

THIS is how you sound Butan  :rolleyes:

Its like - a shopkeeper says " this wine is 10e each", you steal three bottles from him, and tell him "lets come to a diplomatic agreement. I will keep one bottle free of charge, will drink half of other ones and you will have to let me finish them later if I choose so". What kind of diplomacy would you expect here?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 26, 2014, 02:41:22 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 26, 2014, 01:03:39 pm
Svoboda is the only populist/nationalist party? Am I reading your post right?...
Its good that the most obviously bad political entity are shunned in the presidential election of Ukraine, but its not all.


First declarations of the new president who want peace in the east : never recognise Crimea as Russian, new anti-terrorist operation to de-occupy Ukraine, Russian to send back their soldiers in their barracks, Ukraine to prepare to defend their sovereignty...

Such diplomatic skill, much peace, so "a new way of living"  :P

Serr was right in predicting Poroshenko victory, but from the few I've read from him in the past hours, he doesnt seem to be neutral nor to want peace at all. It looks like an even stronger continuation of what the interim government did in the past weeks. Its not looking good at all.

Do you have those goal posts on portable wheels, you dishonest fuck?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 02:46:05 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 02:39:56 pm
(click to show/hide)
Lets imagine what u own me 100 $ and didnt want to return them
Lets imagine what i take rocket launcher and shoot in u several times in mall in hoping to get you, in the name of justice
All dead is just unpleasant side effect


it is not normal when people take video of bombardment from their gardens
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on May 26, 2014, 02:55:21 pm
I like an anology as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend even for a second that Putin is acting for the benefit of anyone other than Putin.

He wanted ports and resources, he took them, its over. UKR should just put some talc on their hurt butts and move on, they wont gain anything from fighting RUSS, and the majority of the international community did not even know where to point on the map when looking for UKR, UKR is sure as shit not going to get any real or meaningful international aid in this situation.

The only result of fighting RUSS would be that UKR loses more land and the lives of many people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 26, 2014, 02:57:02 pm
Kuujis, diplomacy doesnt work like that. Your analogy sounds like a kindergarten way of solving problems. "He stole my room! I dont want to listen to him until he gives it back!"

When 2 countries clashes, you can either use war or diplomacy.

If you want to use diplomacy you dont just claim "I'm the victim here, so give me justice!", you gather people of the 2 sides together and you try to find a solution.
If you want war, you can either directly dec them, or be autistically closed to diplomatic attempts (like Russia, true) and wait for the heat to increase and try to pick up the pieces.



I would have had way more respect to Poroshenko if his first declarations would have been simple and neutral hand gesture toward Russia. Yes, stupid I know, but one have to extend his hand first, if one want to reach peace really. Russia and Ukraine are both stubborn and stupid if none tries to reach to the other.



Quote from: serr on May 26, 2014, 02:17:32 pm
It seems I missed something, could you give a link please?

I have only a link of an "average" french media. I tried to look for links to original statement but I didnt have success: http://www.lepoint.fr/monde/ukraine-petro-poroshenko-que-les-troupes-russes-retournent-dans-leurs-casernes-13-03-2014-1800324_24.php

French text :
(click to show/hide)

English google translate :
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 03:41:25 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 26, 2014, 02:57:02 pm
Kuujis, diplomacy doesnt work like that. Your analogy sounds like a kindergarten way of solving problems. "He stole my room! I dont want to listen to him until he gives it back!"

When 2 countries clashes, you can either use war or diplomacy.

If you want to use diplomacy you dont just claim "I'm the victim here, so give me justice!", you gather people of the 2 sides together and you try to find a solution.
If you want war, you can either directly dec them, or be autistically closed to diplomatic attempts (like Russia, true) and wait for the heat to increase and try to pick up the pieces.
<...>
France suffers a serious lack of russian neighborhood IMO. Giving putler carte blanche (pardon me french) means he gets what he wants. There is NO point in diplomacy with a country or a leader who is not able to honor his word and stick to ones promises. Whats the point? Its easier living with an open enemy nearby than with a trecherous putler, who will in 5 years pick another region to annex, after his crimea BS becomes generally accepted.

You are a coward Butan because you cannot/will not stand for your principles OR those principles are the same that led to WWII.

And its not even a "french running from combat" joke.

Quote from: Vovka on May 26, 2014, 02:46:05 pm
Lets imagine what u own me 100 $ and didnt want to return them
Lets imagine what i take rocket launcher and shoot in u several times in mall in hoping to get you, in the name of justice
All dead is just unpleasant side effect


it is not normal when people take video of bombardment from their gardens

I do not follow your analogy... You want to tell me, that Ukraine forces fighting separatists are shooting innocent people in the mall?

Its not normal, when one has to fight separatists funded and encouraged by neighboring country, which pretends to be friendly. Thats for sure, can't argue with that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 26, 2014, 03:53:32 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 03:41:25 pm
Giving putler carte blanche (pardon me french) means he gets what he wants.

You are confusing, like serr, total surrender and attempts at diplomacy  :)

Being a coward also include hiding behind walls: in that case self-righteousness and NATO. How I see it from here is that Poroshenko feel confident that he can have military support quick, joining all diplomatic associations in the coming weeks he can, and not attempt any serious diplomatical options because he dont want to give Putin anything, anything! (not everything). Even if that means prolonging the civil war and doing exactly the opposite of what he said to get elected.



WW2 parallels and french jokes, so funny, witty one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 26, 2014, 04:01:44 pm
Quote
Being a coward also include hiding behind walls: in that case self-righteousness and NATO. How I see it from here is that Poroshenko feel confident that he can have military support quick, joining all diplomatic associations in the coming weeks he can, and not attempt any serious diplomatical options because he dont want to give Putin anything, anything! (not everything). Even if that means prolonging the civil war and doing exactly the opposite of what he said to get elected.
Quote
http://www.lepoint.fr/monde/ukraine-petro-poroshenko-que-les-troupes-russes-retournent-dans-leurs-casernes-13-03-2014-1800324_24.php

More links please and not from march if possible
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 04:33:34 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 26, 2014, 03:53:32 pm
You are confusing, like serr, total surrender and attempts at diplomacy  :)

Being a coward also include hiding behind walls: in that case self-righteousness and NATO. How I see it from here is that Poroshenko feel confident that he can have military support quick, joining all diplomatic associations in the coming weeks he can, and not attempt any serious diplomatical options because he dont want to give Putin anything, anything! (not everything). Even if that means prolonging the civil war and doing exactly the opposite of what he said to get elected.

WW2 parallels and french jokes, so funny, witty one.
Oh ... if I was the only one with the parallels ... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27497899 :)

Don't muddle the definition of a proper coward. You know full well that NATO by definition and setup goals has minimal business in Ukraine, yet support for them is nearly unanimous. You don't stand up to a bully - you will end up being bullied again.

Tell me, what kind of an idiot would agree to cede ANYTHING to a country which does not give a damn about its promises? Whats THE POINT? They WILL NOT KEEP THEIR PART OF THE BARGAIN if they see any gains in breaking it. While I prefer diplomacy to any killing/war - what is the point if you WILL END UP HAVING TO KILL or surrender at some point anyway. Prolonging the agony? You suffer from the same mentality pre-ww2 Europe suffered from: let him have his small chunk, he will be happy with it and will stop. How many lessons do you need?  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 26, 2014, 06:17:45 pm
Quote from: serr on May 26, 2014, 04:01:44 pm
More links please and not from march if possible

I wait for next declarations, like you, until then I post what Poroshenko said on the situation  :P its a bit old, true, you can consider that bit as outdated and invalid.

The first days of a president being elected can be blurry, I dont lose all hope on Poroshenko yet, but even if you take into account only what he said in the last days, its not good for peace in Ukraine, except if you count peace as total obliteration of the unrest movement.

I still have hope, that he will not do everything that he said, but that he will stay true to his presidential leitmotiv and show encouraging sign of a change of political direction.



Quote from: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 04:33:34 pm
Oh ... if I was the only one with the parallels ... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27497899 :)

Don't muddle the definition of a proper coward. You know full well that NATO by definition and setup goals has minimal business in Ukraine, yet support for them is nearly unanimous. You don't stand up to a bully - you will end up being bullied again.

Tell me, what kind of an idiot would agree to cede ANYTHING to a country which does not give a damn about its promises? Whats THE POINT? They WILL NOT KEEP THEIR PART OF THE BARGAIN if they see any gains in breaking it. While I prefer diplomacy to any killing/war - what is the point if you WILL END UP HAVING TO KILL or surrender at some point anyway. Prolonging the agony? You suffer from the same mentality pre-ww2 Europe suffered from: let him have his small chunk, he will be happy with it and will stop. How many lessons do you need?  :?




"It was that we were both mired into coolly and correctly ignoring one another. It could only make our quarrel worse, and yet I could not bend enough to try any other way. It seemed to me I had already made enough efforts to mend things and been rebuffed. I wanted him to show sign of wishing to make things right between us. But he did not.
So days of misery trickled past."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 26, 2014, 08:13:24 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 26, 2014, 02:57:02 pm
(click to show/hide)

I think it is u who is confused here Butan. U cant negotiate with Russia the way u negotiate with other normal countries. Like I said before their way of diplomacy is pretty damn blunt and every deal they make is always extremely in their favor. And they rarely settle for anything less. And how do u think this "extending the hand" works here. Russia is demanding gigantic amounts of money from a country thats treasury is pretty much empty and is in deep crysis, not to mention its crawling with pro-russian separatist whose endgame is to basically claim half of Ukr-s lands and create a russian puppeted state. If Poroshenko showed any signs of weakness it would have been another signal to the separatist that Ukr has nothing and they can basically rape the country even harder without any consequences.

Also even if by some miracle Ukr does pussy out. Gives in into Russias demands and lets the separatists do whatever they want. U think all those masked men with heavy gear will just suddenly go away? Not even close. Already their leader is threatening the local population with violence. And Russia will never let Ukraine fully go. What has been proven by now is that areas that are russian or owned by russianpuppeted goverments are quite corrupt and severely poor. Imagine Ukraine becoming a success. People living better lives, then their eastern brothers beond the border. Not likely, i know, but if it happened, it would severely damage Russia internally. By bullying Ukr and keeping it unstable, Russia is keeping itself stable. Proving to everyone they have heavy influence over that there is no greener grass, beond theirs.

So GG Butan. Supporting masked violent vigilantes that want to build a totalitarian state and Russia thats basically blackmailing a barely surviving country for everything its got. So i dont know what are u trying to prove here. Its kinda oblivious the only way anything is gonna work is if Russia "extends the hand", which isnt gonna happen. And Poroshenko sucking Russias butt wouldnt really change much. Mybe less harsher words would be thrown at eachother but the actions would remain the same.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 26, 2014, 08:34:29 pm
I was going to write something to convince Butan, but I ended up wanting to smash the keyboard in my face in stead.

I'll put it simple:

Ukraine has Poland in the west, and Russia in the east.

Poland is 100 times better off than Russia. More fair, more freedom, more wealth, more sense, more rights, much less corrupt, less violent, less propaganda. The country is getting better to live in year after year. If you don't believe me, go and see for yourself. To it, and come back to this thread and report what you saw.

The people in western Ukraine see this, and thus realize the Russian propaganda is BS, and they want to choose themselves away from Russia and towards a western way of thinking and way of life. In eastern Ukraine, many people have never seen the west, and believe the west is out to get them like Russian propaganda says.

Putin uses this to his own goals which can be separated as such:

Personal popularity inside Russia:
Taking back Crimea.
Showing strength.
Winning back confidence in RF among population. Loosing Ukraine is like loosing a brother in many russian minds.

Long term strategic Russian goals like:
Protecting some military factories
Taking back crimea, and securing black fleet.
Keeping the west physically away from Russia, so Russians won't know so well what they are missing.  (just like Berlin wall)
So he can continue to run his mafia-like dictatorship, while Russian people are mostly busy surviving.

Some of these are goals that any nation would have, some are more sinister. If you root for Putin/Russia and don't care about Ukraine, this is all OK.

But that's ALL besides the point.

Ukraine is the one getting fucked. Ukraine is the brother who tries to run away from the abusing family, while daddy gives him a serious beating and sticks out one eye for trying.

If you care for the people of Ukraine, the best thing for them is to start turning westwards. Russia has nothing to offer.
(Except super cheap gas which will keep them nice and addicted to it)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 26, 2014, 08:45:45 pm
OMG, this is so easy, you really don't know what diplomacy is. And you are trying to discuss about.
First of all the agreement between the power and opposition about settlement of crisis in Ukraine was signed on Friday February 21 in Kiev by the president of Ukraine Victor Yanukovych and leaders of opposition Vitaly Klitschko, Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Oleh Tyahnybok. The agreement was testified by Foreign Ministers of Poland Radoslav Sikorsky and Germany Frank-Walter Steinmeier and  the head of Department of continental Europe of Foreign Affairs of France Eric Fournier. In that agreement Maidan reeched all goals that they stood for. And that was doplomatic! Why they made revolution next day I don't know. And that was anticonstitutionally and there wasn't any diplomacy. But all Europe says that it was legit, in what ways it was legit? Any sane man will say that it was the armed capture of the power. And if opposition would follow the agreement they reeched, Crimea would be in Ukraine, there wasn't any war on the east.
But what new president have to do now. He must give to regions more then half what they want, but on paper. and when they will fill that they reeched their goal, step by step return what he gave them. He will never win in military way, because Russians never give up. It's basic principle in diplomacy - promise much, do what you need. Same in Russian Federation, same in EU, same in USA. Why ukranian president doesn't want to do so? Maybe he is a puppet of somebody? Then Ukraine will loose again.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 26, 2014, 09:03:19 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 26, 2014, 08:34:29 pm
Poland is 100 times better off than Russia. More fair, more freedom, more wealth, more sense, more rights, much less corrupt, less violent, less propaganda. The country is getting better to live in year after year. If you don't believe me, go and see for yourself. To it, and come back to this thread and report what you saw.
OMG, I live in so bad country, I can't believe that I'm still alive. And this propaganda is so... so... so what you said, Me and Vovka so propoganded,so we are like zombies now. just one question how long have you been living in Russia? And have you ever been in Russia?

Quote from: Tibe on May 26, 2014, 08:13:24 pm
U cant negotiate with Russia the way u negotiate with other normal countries. Like I said before their way of diplomacy is pretty damn blunt and every deal they make is always extremely in their favor.
Yes, WTF this russians sell us their products at very high prices, damn russians! What can I say, don't negotiate then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 09:17:13 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 26, 2014, 06:17:45 pm
"It was that we were both mired into coolly and correctly ignoring one another. It could only make our quarrel worse, and yet I could not bend enough to try any other way. It seemed to me I had already made enough efforts to mend things and been rebuffed. I wanted him to show sign of wishing to make things right between us. But he did not.
So days of misery trickled past."

Nice quote. Since when do you feel the need to take some of that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_high_ground and stress ones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-righteousness?
BTW - did the author also sold his principles together with some military ships to russia?

I would point you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... but this is history... and only idiots even attempt to learn from it, right?

Quote from: DonNicko on May 26, 2014, 09:03:19 pm
OMG, I live in so bad country, I can't believe that I'm still alive. And this propaganda is so... so... so what you said, Me and Vovka so propoganded,so we are like zombies now. just one question how long have you been living in Russia? And have you ever been in Russia?
Yes, WTF this russians sell us their products at very high prices, damn russians! What can I say, don't negotiate then.
yeah... well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_Memorandums

See any more point in negotiations? Would YOU negotiate with partners like this?

Wake up, go to some... I don't know... Poland, or... Germany, or UK, see how people live...

Also - please let your elected government know, that "live and let live" is a nice first step to good neighbors.

But who am I kidding... Its like Ivani4 posted - one has to beats his neighbors from time to time to keep some respect going. Does it work for you too? Do you do that periodically?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 26, 2014, 09:41:00 pm
The only possible outcome of diplomacy with Russia at this point is accelerating the cool-down process and giving legitimacy to Russian actions in Ukraine. In the long term, Ukraine has absolutely nothing to gain from diplomacy. They have already lost many things on the ground, which Russia will never accept to give back peacefully. The country suffering the most from these tensions right now is Russia, really. They got what they wanted and now they want all this mess to be forgotten. Tensions poisons their economy and diplomacy much more than it does the Ukrainian diplomacy and economy at large (the Ukrainian economy is damaged by the situation on the ground which will not be fixed by diplomacy anyway).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 26, 2014, 09:41:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 09:17:13 pm
yeah... well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_Memorandums

See any more point in negotiations? Would YOU negotiate with partners like this?

Wake up, go to some... I don't know... Poland, or... Germany, or UK, see how people live...

Also - please let your elected government know, that "live and let live" is a nice first step to good neighbors.

But who am I kidding... Its like Ivani4 posted - one has to beats his neighbors from time to time to keep some respect going. Does it work for you too? Do you do that periodically?
Russian soul doesn't need foreign worthes, I was in Germany and what? Russia is near for my heart. What Russia did to Ukraine before revolution? Nothing. Ukraine lost Crimea only because of their stupid unnecessary actions, like Russian Empire lost a lot of territories after revolution in 1917, like USSR lost a lot of territory after stupid actions of Eltsin. Now Ukraine. How Russia beats neighbors now, some examples, please don't say Crimea again, be a little bit original
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 26, 2014, 09:57:54 pm
We have given shitton of examples of how Russia beats its neibhours(thats not Crimea). All your neibhours hate u. And this isnt cause of some Western propaganda garbage your goverment tries to tell u. Russia has ruined a lot of diplomatic negotiations with its neibhours, simply because it likes being a dick. No real reasons. No profit. Just for the sake of being dicks. And sometimes for simply demanding too much.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 26, 2014, 09:03:19 pm
Yes, WTF this russians sell us their products at very high prices, damn russians! What can I say, don't negotiate then.
Again I clearified this in the past pages. Im not gonna explain this anymore. Live happy in your great soviet-era motherland, while the rest of the world moves forward. What else to say really.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 26, 2014, 10:00:53 pm
Quote
Ukraine lost Crimea only because of their stupid unnecessary actions

So, there were no ridiculous russian propaganda and no russian soldiers capturing buildings and blocking military bases, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 26, 2014, 10:20:57 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 26, 2014, 09:03:19 pm
OMG, I live in so bad country, I can't believe that I'm still alive. And this propaganda is so... so... so what you said, Me and Vovka so propoganded,so we are like zombies now. just one question how long have you been living in Russia? And have you ever been in Russia?
Yes, WTF this russians sell us their products at very high prices, damn russians! What can I say, don't negotiate then.

I have been to Russia. (Kaliningrad) for 2 weeks. And I was pretty shocked to see how the system works there. Don't you look around sometimes? Is it right that thiefs and their whores are the richest people in your country? That they own the justice system? That there is no Justice for normal people? That abuse of power is the NORM rather than the exception? Don't you see that while rest of the world moves forward, Russia is practically standing still? That the few people that dears to tell the truth gets killed, threatened and jailed?

Look in your pocket ffs. It should be more money there. You live in the richest country on earth by natural resources. But someone stole it before you got it. (Hint: No, it's not EU or Americans who stole it, but Russians)

I lived in Poland for 7 years. This country has a good future, and a decent now. You can have a good life here. Without powerful friends.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 26, 2014, 11:03:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 26, 2014, 09:41:12 pm
Russian soul doesn't need foreign worthes, I was in Germany and what? Russia is near for my heart. What Russia did to Ukraine before revolution? Nothing. Ukraine lost Crimea only because of their stupid unnecessary actions, like Russian Empire lost a lot of territories after revolution in 1917, like USSR lost a lot of territory after stupid actions of Eltsin. Now Ukraine. How Russia beats neighbors now, some examples, please don't say Crimea again, be a little bit original
Russia doesn't need foreign worthes... What is "worthes"? Riches? Goods? Maybe capital? I would beg to disagree on all 3 accounts.

I don't even want to start about "stupid others loosing their territories which we agreed to respect and not take by force". And the comment about USSR loosing territory... Care to elaborate? - USSR lost what it occupied for 50 years, not "its territories". Go read some proper history books, not the ones putler writes for his "mother russia loving simpletons" like you have just proven yourself to be.

Who did russia beat recently... lets see...
Chechens. They wanted and voted for independence, like Crimea... No?
Moldova with their frozen conflict of Trans-Dniestr.
Georgia - after a bunch of provocations and glorious short war creating two shit-states noone cares to acknowledge.
Ukraine - after the people removed the puppet president suddenly - NATZESESSEEEEESES everywhere, lets get crimea back.
Next... lets see... who would be next. LATVIA! Shit, ... too much NATO there... ESTONIA - shit... the same NATO there... I think some Kyrgistan or Azerbaijan might follow?
Also - I do believe you would treat hostile declarations about "rewriting history" a... FRIENDLY and CONSTRUCTIVE gesture, but I assure you - few in the baltics think so.
Little shit like blocking imports in random economic sectors and price fixing deals thus abusing Gazprom monopoly also are not to be treated like "beating neighbors" no?

I would be ashamed of my country if it acted this way and would be joining rallies against shit like this. Yet - 80% of robbed simpletons support putler...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 27, 2014, 12:58:44 am
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Nostalgia is a bitch :lol:

http://justice4germans.com/2013/08/23/ukrainians-honour-the-service-and-sacrifices-of-the-waffen-ss-galicia-division/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 27, 2014, 04:41:32 am
Ofcourse we have a lot of thiefs, if you know history, new era of Russia began only 20 years ago. We had a lot of mafia bands, which controlled Russia, now you won't find them here, people earn money here, I earn about 2000$ per mounth, about 4 millions ukranians work in Russia. We have a lot of places for work. But yes those oligarches stole money from Russia and send them to foreign countries, especially USA, so I think maybe USA stole them by russian oligarches.
It is so hard to discuss with some of you, because you believe only in one point of view - yours. But what I want to say: in the conflict both parties are always guilty.
Serr, I know that Russia sent armed people to Crimea. Putin said that many times. If Crimea was occupied by russians, why then they decided to join it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on May 27, 2014, 05:13:33 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 27, 2014, 04:41:32 am
Ofcourse we have a lot of thiefs, if you know history, new era of Russia began only 20 years ago. We had a lot of mafia bands, which controlled Russia, now you won't find them here, people earn money here, I earn about 2000$ per mounth, about 4 millions ukranians work in Russia. We have a lot of places for work. But yes those oligarches stole money from Russia and send them to foreign countries, especially USA, so I think maybe USA stole them by russian oligarches.
It is so hard to discuss with some of you, because you believe only in one point of view - yours. But what I want to say: in the conflict both parties are always guilty.
Serr, I know that Russia sent armed people to Crimea. Putin said that many times. If Crimea was occupied by russians, why then they decided to join it?
Obviously as russians the only way they would betray the Motherland was if evil USA was behind it. Who ever heard of corrupt russian businessmen and officials otherwise? An obvious calumny. And clearly they have ceased to exist since Putin came to power. Yup, no such thing as russian oligarchs anymore. Or mafia.
Maybe the nonstop propaganda blared from state owned russian "journalists" about how evil ukrainian chocolate chip cookie's were about to slaughter the poor opressed russian minority played a part in their deciding to join it. Why did Suddetenland join the Reich when it was militarily occupied by germans?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 27, 2014, 05:40:41 am
Seriuslly Nicko. That is utter nonsense. You poor misunderstood and tormented by the whole world for no reason ruskies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 27, 2014, 08:30:59 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 27, 2014, 04:41:32 am
It is so hard to discuss with some of you, because you believe only in one point of view - yours. But what I want to say: in the conflict both parties are always guilty.
Its like saying that girls wearing sexy clothes in the summer are also partially guilty of rape that they happen to be victim of. This is bullshit. Plain and simple. Once you understand how guilty of bullshit your country is - its only natural to look for company in the guilt, but I'm afraid there is little to find. Deal with it.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 27, 2014, 04:41:32 am
Serr, I know that Russia sent armed people to Crimea. Putin said that many times. If Crimea was occupied by russians, why then they decided to join it?
You been there? Anyone worthy of trust witnessed the voting and counting of votes? How can you even THINK of a referendum about joining aggressor country being valid if the aggressors troops are on the ground? EVEN if they are "nice" and carrying guns/driving around in IFV's just for show? Dude... wake the fuck up! Its EXACTLY why putler's nickname came to be, because its EXACTLY what happened before WW2 in Sudettenland.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 27, 2014, 09:25:03 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 27, 2014, 08:30:59 am
Its like saying that girls wearing sexy clothes in the summer are also partially guilty of rape that they happen to be victim of.
Hmm looks legit
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-464150/Judges-mercy-man-raped-girl-ten.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 27, 2014, 09:45:44 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 27, 2014, 09:25:03 am
Hmm looks legit
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-464150/Judges-mercy-man-raped-girl-ten.html
Do you see a wrong sentence or a proper reaction and after-action to a wrong sentence? also, for the record - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EvpRumCpz8 .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 27, 2014, 12:26:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 27, 2014, 09:45:44 am
Do you see a wrong sentence or a proper reaction and after-action to a wrong sentence? also, for the record - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EvpRumCpz8 .
i broke google translator because of u!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 27, 2014, 03:50:17 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 26, 2014, 09:41:00 pm
The only possible outcome of diplomacy with Russia at this point is accelerating the cool-down process and giving legitimacy to Russian actions in Ukraine. In the long term, Ukraine has absolutely nothing to gain from diplomacy.

Thats ignoring all latest Russia actions : withdrawing soldiers from borders, severing ties with separatists, asking for local referendum to be postponed, and lastly recognised Ukraine presidential election result.
Its been a while since I saw vids of masked green men in perfect russian gear, and the unrest is toning down.


Its strange that you remain so closed to the situation seeing that there is many clues that it could indeed stop soon, if given patience and calm. The new president of Ukraine can use his mandate to at least try; if he doesnt, no amount of "cant appear weak/russian cant be trusted" is going to explain : diplomacy is a state tradition, a state leader have to be above all that.

I will stay tuned on what are his first real actions as president.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 27, 2014, 05:46:09 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on May 27, 2014, 07:05:08 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 27, 2014, 07:05:49 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 27, 2014, 08:30:59 am
You been there? Anyone worthy of trust witnessed the voting and counting of votes? How can you even THINK of a referendum about joining aggressor country being valid if the aggressors troops are on the ground? EVEN if they are "nice" and carrying guns/driving around in IFV's just for show? Dude... wake the fuck up! Its EXACTLY why putler's nickname came to be, because its EXACTLY what happened before WW2 in Sudettenland.
OH sorry Kuujis, I forgot that you have been in Crimea. And I forgot that half of my family live in Ukraine. Ofcourse I don't know anything, I just propoganded by TV that I don't watch. I like Ukraine, Odessa and Kiev my favorite towns, I like them more then ST. Petersburg and other towns in Russia, But I love my country. I just want to say. You don't know the real political truth. You know only what you hear from others, from you president from TV and so on. If you think that Russia is only evil in the world, then think so. But don't say it like ultimate truth that expirienced so many times by all your life
And what now. On maidan 100 people were killed, in Odessa 48 were killed and 48 were disapeared. There is no investigation about that now. On the East every day people die. And you blame Russia that she didn't allow that in Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 27, 2014, 07:18:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 27, 2014, 07:05:49 pm
OH sorry Kuujis, I forgot that you have been in Crimea. And I forgot that half of my family live in Ukraine. Ofcourse I don't know anything, I just propoganded by TV that I don't watch. I like Ukraine, Odessa and Kiev my favorite towns, I like them more then ST. Petersburg and other towns in Russia, But I love my country. I just want to say. You don't know the real political truth. You know only what you hear from others, from you president from TV and so on. If you think that Russia is only evil in the world, then think so. But don't say it like ultimate truth that expirienced so many times by all your life
And what now. On maidan 100 people were killed, in Odessa 48 were killed and 48 were disapeared. There is no investigation about that now. On the East every day people die. And you blame Russia that she didn't allow that in Crimea.
You talk whats comfortable to you, answer what you like, ignore rest and you have a funny tendency of putting words in the mouths of others.

So you have what.. 20 relatives in Ukr? What does that mean? That you can speak for majority? That the "referendum" was valid? That Occupying, sham-referendum-annexing, when 10 years ago the opposite was promissed, is all LEGIT? Somehow... excusable?

Fun fact: our PRESIDENT is probably the LAST source of truth of whats happening in Ukraine. Strange difference, eh? ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 27, 2014, 10:13:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 27, 2014, 07:05:49 pm
OH sorry Kuujis, I forgot that you have been in Crimea. And I forgot that half of my family live in Ukraine. Ofcourse I don't know anything, I just propoganded by TV that I don't watch. I like Ukraine, Odessa and Kiev my favorite towns, I like them more then ST. Petersburg and other towns in Russia, But I love my country. I just want to say. You don't know the real political truth. You know only what you hear from others, from you president from TV and so on. If you think that Russia is only evil in the world, then think so. But don't say it like ultimate truth that expirienced so many times by all your life
And what now. On maidan 100 people were killed, in Odessa 48 were killed and 48 were disapeared. There is no investigation about that now. On the East every day people die. And you blame Russia that she didn't allow that in Crimea.
So you have some personal info. Thats nice. But that doesnt really stop you from being ignorant. On maidan 100 people died cause the corrupt president didnt give up his seat and gave the order to shoot at the protesters and he was backed by Russia and he is still backed by Russia. In Odessa 48 were killed and "were disapeared" because the pro-russian separatists went on a lootingspree, which was "not backed by russia" as your officials claim. Even so, a mere statement that Russia doesnt support the separatist and the corrupt president at the very start of this crysis would have been enough to avoid any kind of violence. Russia infact encouraged the violent separatists via propaganda. Stating that everyone in Kiev is chocolate chip cookie seemed to do its job pretty well.

And this:
Quote
And you blame Russia that she didn't allow that in Crimea.
Wtf dude? So you are really one of those idiots who belives Russia annexed Crimea to save lives? Man, you are everything thats wrong with russians. You are one of those similar people who can travel all around the world, live in different places and then still be completely blind. And yes, such people exsist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 27, 2014, 11:38:46 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 27, 2014, 10:13:39 pm
So you have some personal info. Thats nice. But that doesnt really stop you from being ignorant. On maidan 100 people died cause the corrupt president didnt give up his seat and gave the order to shoot at the protesters and he was backed by Russia and he is still backed by Russia. In Odessa 48 were killed and "were disapeared" because the pro-russian separatists went on a lootingspree, which was "not backed by russia" as your officials claim. Even so, a mere statement that Russia doesnt support the separatist and the corrupt president at the very start of this crysis would have been enough to avoid any kind of violence. Russia infact encouraged the violent separatists via propaganda. Stating that everyone in Kiev is chocolate chip cookie seemed to do its job pretty well.

And this:Wtf dude? So you are really one of those idiots who belives Russia annexed Crimea to save lives? Man, you are everything thats wrong with russians. You are one of those similar people who can travel all around the world, live in different places and then still be completely blind. And yes, such people exsist.
Tibe haaaaaalp meeeee putin 23 svoboda hail
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 28, 2014, 08:15:36 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 27, 2014, 11:38:46 pm
Tibe haaaaaalp meeeee putin 23 svoboda hail
(click to show/hide)
I'm shocked Vovka... writing putlers name without proper capital P... that's blasphemy, that's madness...!

Also - sarcasm is the only defense a sane mind has when confronted with some realities, I feel for you :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 28, 2014, 02:59:36 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 27, 2014, 07:18:09 pm
So you have what.. 20 relatives in Ukr? What does that mean? That you can speak for majority?

I wonder how serr and dave should understand that part.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 28, 2014, 03:39:15 pm
(click to show/hide)
Kuujis, can't understand what you want to say, how do you read what I write? What majority do speak about. Referendum was made by those authorities, russian soldiers were only on the borders and near ukranian army posts. There wasn't any pressure (Because I know it not from TV), there were more then 100 foreign observers and from OSCE too. Most of population in Crimea are russians. Really I don't need Crimea, But I'm glad that nobody dies there now. If you make revolution in your country then nothing can be legit.
(click to show/hide)
Where did you get this info that president said to shoot people, if no investigation has been done? Show me russian propoganda that says that everyone in Kiev is nazee, russian tv says that only about right sector, hooligans, national guard and some others? Thank you for calling me idiot. For people like you I will write again: I know that Putin wanted to join Crimea and saving lives is only cover-up. But people in Crimea also wanted to join Russia. You get only one side of information and  because of that you call me blind? As I said I don't appreciate all doings of our government. I just want people live in peace. And when people start discuss something with lack of information makes me laugh. I dont state the truth, because I don't know it just some of it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 28, 2014, 05:32:13 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 27, 2014, 03:50:17 pm
Thats ignoring all latest Russia actions : withdrawing soldiers from borders, severing ties with separatists, asking for local referendum to be postponed, and lastly recognised Ukraine presidential election result.
Its been a while since I saw vids of masked green men in perfect russian gear, and the unrest is toning down.

Its strange that you remain so closed to the situation seeing that there is many clues that it could indeed stop soon, if given patience and calm. The new president of Ukraine can use his mandate to at least try; if he doesnt, no amount of "cant appear weak/russian cant be trusted" is going to explain : diplomacy is a state tradition, a state leader have to be above all that.

I will stay tuned on what are his first real actions as president.

That's exactly my point. Putin already got what he wanted and now he tries to calm the situation, because tensions are bad for Russia. Ukraine already lost and they will never get Crimea or the east back through diplomatic means. Trust or not, weakness or not, Ukraine's interests cannot be reached through diplomacy with Putin at the moment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 28, 2014, 06:36:30 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 28, 2014, 07:36:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 28, 2014, 03:39:15 pm
Kuujis, can't understand what you want to say, how do you read what I write? What majority do speak about. Referendum was made by those authorities, russian soldiers were only on the borders and near ukranian army posts. There wasn't any pressure (Because I know it not from TV), there were more then 100 foreign observers and from OSCE too. Most of population in Crimea are russians. Really I don't need Crimea, But I'm glad that nobody dies there now. If you make revolution in your country then nothing can be legit.
Soo... referendum was legit, memorandum of Budapest 1994 is toilet paper and little-green-men blocking and disrupting Ukrainian forces were... "peacemaking"? :D If so - then you are a pitiful sheep.
Authorities... a guy proclaiming himself leader backed by foreign troops.... like hell he is authority. Unless ofc we are back to middle ages.
Like hell russian soldiers were "on borders", they were going and doing what they pleased/were commanded to do. And what the hell does it even mean "near ukrainian army posts"? Like - as if you would occupy a territory and would then decide to incapacitate local army units, so that even theoretical resistance is null and void?
Like hell there was no pressure. Ask Crimean tatars, if they were pressured, ok?
100 observers from "organizations" which would jump over its head to bite at EU/US at every opportunity possible. They do not even remotely "smell" of reliability, however strongly putler spouts otherwise.
Most population of suddetten were germans, thats why putlerTHAT OTHER GUY (how could I have made this mistake...omfg) did the same sham of a referendum-annex bullshit. You up for futher comparison?
And lets get back to Chechen story, separatists were handled with fucking artilerry and massive millitary campaign. Like hell this "we want independence so we take it" argument stands, even in putlers actions. So keep your bullshit in this area to yourself.

This whole BS in Ukraine was inflated by russian state controlled media and you are a blind sheep NOT to see that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 29, 2014, 12:33:14 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 29, 2014, 12:57:55 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 29, 2014, 07:38:21 pm
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Again can't understand what do you want to say? I don't say that referendum is legit at all, Eltsin as for me was stupid president who could only drink vodka and hardly speak, maybe because of that USA liked him, because he sighned a lot of agreements. the war in Chechnya also was his fault and people in Russia blame him for that. Russia in 90s made a lot of mistakes and now too. Who doesn't? What do you want to say Kuujis, that opinion of nation in Crimea costs nothing, when Crimea was given to Ukraine nobody asked people if they want to join it, now they were asked. And what about tatars, I live in Tatarstan, if you now what is it) more then half of people here are tatars, my best friend tatar and I speak on tatar, I have crimean tatar friends. Yes I know that there was repression from USSR to crimean tatars, and now crimean tatars got reabilitation from Russia which they couldn't get from Ukraine for 24 years. Yes I know that some of Tatars are against Russia but there is small amount of them. Really can't understand where do you get your information and what exactly do you want to prove?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 29, 2014, 08:36:26 pm
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/russia-belarus-and-kazakhstan-set-new-alliance (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/russia-belarus-and-kazakhstan-set-new-alliance)

Look at this mega-alliance.  :lol:

I guess this could be why Russia isn't helping at all to ease tensions. Among many other reasons, of course.

USSR 2.0 in the making, za putinu!

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 29, 2014, 10:46:37 pm
Now we will have even more potato!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 29, 2014, 10:47:23 pm
You needed a news to know they were allied, and its somehow influencing whats happening in Ukraine?


Thats like saying Ukraine joining EU is somehow related to a game of thrones behind the curtains.
Oh, I just said it, my bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 29, 2014, 10:54:14 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 29, 2014, 10:47:23 pm
You needed a news to know they were allied, and its somehow influencing whats happening in Ukraine?


Thats like saying Ukraine joining EU is somehow related to a game of thrones behind the curtains.
Oh, I just said it, my bad.

Headdesk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 30, 2014, 02:59:50 am
4,500 Russian Fighters Have Crossed the Ukrainian Border (http://landandseajournal.com/4500-russian-fighters-have-crossed-the-ukraine-border)


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 30, 2014, 09:08:03 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 29, 2014, 07:38:21 pm
Again can't understand what do you want to say?
I asked some questions, finally got some funny answers :)

Let me dissect.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 29, 2014, 07:38:21 pm
I don't say that referendum is legit at all, Eltsin as for me was stupid president who could only drink vodka and hardly speak, maybe because of that USA liked him, because he sighned a lot of agreements. the war in Chechnya also was his fault and people in Russia blame him for that. Russia in 90s made a lot of mistakes and now too. Who doesn't?
So the referendum was NOT legit? So how do you base your "majority wanted to joing" oppinion based on that? You 20 something friends are the majority? Eltsin started the Chechen war,  but double check who has finished it and how... :? Its not about Eltsin, no need to distract oneself.
And as to mistakes... do you consider 1994 memorandum a mistake and 1997 aprobation of borders of Ukraine a mistake too? Maybe then even dissolution of USSR a mistake too? Such country. Real wow. Fucking not.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 29, 2014, 07:38:21 pm
What do you want to say Kuujis, that opinion of nation in Crimea costs nothing, when Crimea was given to Ukraine nobody asked people if they want to join it, now they were asked. And what about tatars, I live in Tatarstan, if you now what is it) more then half of people here are tatars, my best friend tatar and I speak on tatar, I have crimean tatar friends. Yes I know that there was repression from USSR to crimean tatars, and now crimean tatars got reabilitation from Russia which they couldn't get from Ukraine for 24 years. Yes I know that some of Tatars are against Russia but there is small amount of them. Really can't understand where do you get your information and what exactly do you want to prove?
Well... this is funny bit of shit. "Nation" of crimea is "imported russians", which then were called a nation by russia media :D  GOOD FOR YOU!
The prohibition to mark the 70 years anniversary of the repressions agains Tatars by CCCP IS the most indicative action of ... how do you call it... "REABILITATION FROM RUSSIA". I felt brain dead at the end of this sentence.
Also - I am happy for your friends, but I won't take their word for a "representative" majority any time soon. I read of numerous actions to the contrary of what your brainwashed head is filled though... so tough luck. Fun fact - majority of displaced people during this whole conflict are from Crimea... OMFG - CAN'T BE, THERE WAS NO REPRESSION! http://www.unhcr.org/537b24536.html </irony>

Look at Scotland. This is how you organize and reach for your independence. Similar movement, without Crimea level problems IS happening in Belgium, Spain and afaik North of Italy. And there is no need for bloodshed, external forces coming to "makepeace" (as you have so aptly called it) or some similar shit. There ARE mechanisms to do it. Russia used whole range of wrong ones. And you can't even admit it.

And in the end is going to be "so we did a mistake, who cares, everybody does them, so we did ours on purpose, who cares, we have too much gas/oil to be ignored, also western world oppresses us QQ..." Well... a band of sheep called "mother russia".

Just to be clear about "what I want to say": russia with putler in the lead did a dick-move and occupied crimea in fashion reminiscent of the H guy  + created a whole bunch of bullshit in eastern Ukraine and the sadest part is you can't/won't admit it. Although - at the start there WAS a really strange event of a rally against this whole BS in Moscow... as I said before - pure respect. For the rest of the sheep - I hope you are being fed well enough.

P.S. I sincerely wish the same treatment that russia gave to ukraine but this time from China to Siberia... Then you can QQ and noone will hear you... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 30, 2014, 01:11:56 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 30, 2014, 02:59:50 am
4,500 Russian Fighters Have Crossed the Ukrainian Border (http://landandseajournal.com/4500-russian-fighters-have-crossed-the-ukraine-border)

Said Yaroslav Gonchar, deputy commander of the Azov battalion to the Ukraine Independent Information Agency (UNIAN) .



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 31, 2014, 01:20:14 pm
Poroshenko promises calm 'in hours' amid battle to control Donetsk airport (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/26/poroshenko-peace-donetsk-airport-air-strike-separatists)

Most interesting bits to me:


Pro-RUS and RUS:

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Poroshenko:

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First important action of Poroshenko : most important battle since beginning of eastern Ukraine (Donetsk airport battle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Donetsk_Airport)).
It seems like he is backing up his tough stance with action.
I found nothing on whats up in Donetsk since then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 31, 2014, 02:33:14 pm
First, he won elections, but he is not president yet.

Second, please don't pull quotes out of context, changing meaning of them:

Quote
The pro-Russia forces who have occupied government buildings in eastern Ukraine said they were ready to negotiate with Ukraine's new leadership, but only with Russian mediation and on equal terms. The separatists have declared themselves de facto independent states and claim Kiev has no jurisdiction over them.

They were ready to negotiate only if Ukraine recognize them as independent states and withdraw army from their territories.

Quote
The president-elect promised to return Crimea to Ukraine, though this is likely to be a fruitless pursuit given the wave of patriotism in Russia that accompanied the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula. A key point in any negotiations with Moscow will be the price at which Ukraine purchases Russian natural gas. Moscow has demanded Ukraine pay back billions of dollars it saved on a significantly reduced gas price under Yanukovych.

We had big discount on gas because of russian black see fleet bases on our territory. After annexing Crimea Russia demanded us to pay back what we saved on those discounts since 2010. That's another reason for not recognizing Crimea to be russian.

 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 31, 2014, 02:59:08 pm
The full text is linked for those who want more context, I dont think it changes the meaning at all though, your bolded parts is just additional background information.
I thought I did a 100% perfect neutral job but there is always something wrong when you look for grudges  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 31, 2014, 03:06:06 pm
Nah, I don't.
In second case... probably you didn't change meaning, I just provided some more info on matter, which explains why Ukraine won't recognize Crimea as russian and will talk about its returning even if it is impossible.

But with first quote - you obviously did. "We are ready to negotiate" and "We are ready to negotiate, but only after you fulfill our demands and let us do whatever we want" are very different.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 31, 2014, 04:17:22 pm
Quote from: serr on May 31, 2014, 02:33:14 pm
We had big discount on gas because of russian black see fleet bases on our territory. After annexing Crimea Russia demanded us to pay back what we saved on those discounts since 2010. That's another reason for not recognizing Crimea to be russian.

 Не совсем так, долг начал накапливаться с апреля 2013. На момент аннексии крыма это был долг за два или три месяца по цене 300+, чтобы украине легче было его погасить цену опустили до 285 при условии что украина погасит весь долг (потом согласились на часть) , так как украина не погасила долг и по этой цене, то эти три месяца пересчитали по цене 485 без всех скидок + начали начислять последующие месяца по цене 485, вроде там по 1,2 млрд в месяц. Про 2010г. медведев просто сказал что недополученная прибыль рашки 10 млрд за счет всех скидок и пока ее не требовали и врядли у них это получится. Сейчас яценюк оплатил три месяца по цене 285 до аннексии крыма, и собрались судиться по оставшимся долгам после аннексии крыма.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 31, 2014, 04:33:01 pm
Там все столько уже всего наговорили...
Сначала Медведев недополученную прибыль записал в долг и заявлял о том что Украина должна 13 млрд, хотя сразу очевидно было что никто не будет эти 10 млрд возвращать. Последний раз вроде говорили о трех с лишним, вроде об упущенной выгоде забыли, но Крым все равно признавать не будут. Хотя бы потому что остается призрачная возможность получить компенсацию. Как ни крути, но Украина вбухала в Крым больше чем с него получила.

Как по мне, продать бы вам оптом Крым и Донбасс, после чего как следует защитить оставшиеся восточные регионы... К сожалению, на такое никто не пойдет ни у нас, ни у вас. Боюсь, эта ерунда в Донецке надолго.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 31, 2014, 08:59:48 pm


Also, for russian speaking, there is forum of Sloviansk, local residents post there a lot about current situation. I find it much more reliable than any media http://torum.org/ .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on May 31, 2014, 11:18:07 pm
Thanks for vid, I respect vice news info.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 01, 2014, 12:37:20 am
Man, those helicopters are scary...

It's difficult for the army tho. They probably have the heavier equipment to end the separatists rather quickly but can't use it with all those civilians around. They could be sure about that at the airport. Maybe that's why they brought in the cavalry...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 01, 2014, 01:13:21 am
Quote from: Molly on June 01, 2014, 12:37:20 am
Man, those helicopters are scary...

It's difficult for the army tho. They probably have the heavier equipment to end the separatists rather quickly but can't use it with all those civilians around. They could be sure about that at the airport. Maybe that's why they brought in the cavalry...

I'm pretty sure the second attack helicopter used a minigun given the sound.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 01, 2014, 01:21:39 am
Quote from: Kafein on June 01, 2014, 01:13:21 am
I'm pretty sure the second attack helicopter used a minigun given the sound.

yup, it's that signature sound that I'd rather not want to hear in my neighborhood, like ever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 01, 2014, 01:51:44 am
Quote from: Molly on June 01, 2014, 12:37:20 am
Man, those helicopters are scary...

It's difficult for the army tho. They probably have the heavier equipment to end the separatists rather quickly but can't use it with all those civilians around. They could be sure about that at the airport. Maybe that's why they brought in the cavalry...

yeah true they are afraid of hurting the civilian population, so instead of using firearms they use artellery, rockets and heavy machine guns on helicopters and on APC  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on June 01, 2014, 02:09:39 am
The cavalry is used to try to have a "morale impact" on separatists, also as a political tool for poroshenko to show strenght.
He said he would end it in hours, if its still not... he's going to lose face.



Afaik they try to not kill civilians but they focus on ending it asap: already quite a few collateral damage has been reported.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 01, 2014, 09:03:14 am
Quote
also as a political tool for poroshenko to show strenght.
He said he would end it in hours, if its still not... he's going to lose face.

Man, don't you read what I write?

Poroshenko is not president, he can't show strength. He'll become president on 7th June.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on June 01, 2014, 11:56:52 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 01, 2014, 01:51:44 am
yeah true they are afraid of hurting the civilian population, so instead of using firearms they use artellery, rockets and heavy machine guns on helicopters and on APC  :lol:
The Russian strategy in 1999 was to hold back tanks and armored personnel carriers and subject the entrenched Chechens to an intensive heavy artillery barrage and aerial bombardment before engaging them with relatively small groups of infantry, many with prior training in urban warfare. In a destructive move which was very dangerous to civilians (officially they were Russian citizens), the Russian forces relied heavily on ballistic missiles (SCUD, OTR-21 Tochka) and fuel air explosives. (The TOS-1, a multiple rocket launcher with thermobaric weapon warheads, played a particularly prominent role in the assault).
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on June 01, 2014, 01:49:01 pm
Quote from: serr on June 01, 2014, 09:03:14 am
Poroshenko is not president, he can't show strength. He'll become president on 7th June.

Even before actual inauguration, he has more legitimacy to act as a man in charge than those clowns who won their positions after Maidan revolution. Because he was elected, ya know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on June 01, 2014, 02:11:52 pm
Quote from: serr on June 01, 2014, 09:03:14 am
Man, don't you read what I write?

Poroshenko is not president, he can't show strength. He'll become president on 7th June.


Why is he making declaration that he will end it in hours then, just before donetsk airport battle?

I dont know the details of your government process to officialy take position, but from outside it looks like he is in command.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 01, 2014, 02:23:09 pm
No, he is not. While Leshma is right and he is already considered to be president by most population, he has no authorities to act yet and our interim president is still Turchinov.

The fact that there will be no second round certainly increased confidence of our army and therefore they started to act harder, but I don't think there is direct connection between Poroshenko's declaration and battle in airport, which started in first place because rebels captured it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 03, 2014, 09:56:59 am
I wonder what that your media say about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8galpPt0g6E
administrative building in Lugansk

version with niggas

(click to show/hide)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-7bPkO8TfI&index=8&list=PLoBNAG_iKEn6ZQN1TprZS5hzKAsbszdcQ
btw did dat guys from Vice news with white TV on helmet??? 4-7 sec
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 03, 2014, 10:11:26 am
That it was a case of someone shooting from a grenade launcher at an administrative building and not much more details provided.

Random youtube clip tries to paint this as an attack by Ukraine jets? That jet fired numerous rockets and the video shows only one damaged window and a bunch of torn down leaves/branches, zero craters, which would be expected of rockets... I would say thus, that these are different events. You?  :rolleyes:

Pity about wounded/dead, but once you pick up a gun - you are a target. russia and putler define these as terrorists in russia, and does this to them:
Quote from: Segd on June 01, 2014, 11:56:52 am
The Russian strategy in 1999 was to hold back tanks and armored personnel carriers and subject the entrenched Chechens to an intensive heavy artillery barrage and aerial bombardment before engaging them with relatively small groups of infantry, many with prior training in urban warfare. In a destructive move which was very dangerous to civilians (officially they were Russian citizens), the Russian forces relied heavily on ballistic missiles (SCUD, OTR-21 Tochka) and fuel air explosives. (The TOS-1, a multiple rocket launcher with thermobaric weapon warheads, played a particularly prominent role in the assault).
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 03, 2014, 10:19:53 am
Quote from: Kuujis on June 03, 2014, 10:11:26 am
That it was a case of someone shooting from a grenade launcher at an administrative building and not much more details provided.
Random youtube clip tries to paint this as an attack by Ukraine jets? That jet fired numerous rockets and the video shows only one damaged window and a bunch of torn down leaves/branches, zero craters, which would be expected of rockets... I would say thus, that these are different events. You?  :rolleyes:
Pity about wounded/dead, but once you pick up a gun - you are a target. russia and putler define these as terrorists in russia, and does this to them:
i think its pro UA pilot instead just launch rocked also used his gun. If u checked last video alot ppls with broked legs so expl was on the ground heir arms is fine, aslo on video "shot from park version"
in slowmove u can also see expl right on road.

 and again if u use chechnia as argument read about 1991-1994 before 1st chechen war even happend pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 03, 2014, 11:24:53 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 03, 2014, 10:19:53 am
i think its pro UA pilot instead just launch rocked also used his gun. If u checked last video alot ppls with broked legs so expl was on the ground heir arms is fine, aslo on video "shot from park version"
in slowmove u can also see expl right on road.

 and again if u use chechnia as argument read about 1991-1994 before 1st chechen war even happend pls

I think I was talking about different incident, sorry.

In this case there seems to be ONE explosion, not multiple, which again is not compatible with multiple rockets fired by the plane. In the "vertical video" (sic), which seems to be from the park - the plane had to dive nose down to hit a target few hundred meters away from supposed location. Plus - call me naive, but I believe you bomb cities with civilians only in russia by the command of putler, as during the second war in Chechnya. So call me naive - but I hardly believe the UA pilot would be shooting multiple unguided rockets into the middle of town. AND - having in mind, that there WAS fighting nearby (at some border control unit or another) - that might have been the target. What our news wrote is that some midget from the separatists side misfired a AA rocket, which then resulted in multiple wounded and dead. From the videos - I can't tell which is right.

Oh, and about wars in Chechnya, I read a bit more than I care to spend time on this - point me to anything specific, which would make the whole war against internal separatist in russia different from the anti-terrorist operation in Ukraine. I can't find the relevant lines. Sorry  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on June 03, 2014, 01:07:58 pm
If the world were in the medieval times and you still had gates/walls defending cities. If Russia would invade France, Butan is the guy who would open the gate for them.

Lul
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on June 03, 2014, 01:14:49 pm
I would open the gate to sally forth and destroy their forward spawn  :P

Here its a little bit different, its not country vs country but a civil war. Ofc those that supports the government will always say the rebels are spies/terrorists/foreigners and undermine the nature of the unrest... nothing new under the sun.
If France was in a civil war I would open the gate to those who would help me destroy the side I'm fighting against.


Quote from: Kuujis on June 03, 2014, 10:11:26 am
Pity about wounded/dead, but once you pick up a gun - you are a target. russia and putler define these as terrorists in russia, and does this to them:


I see guys strolling by a park leisurely and cars driving in and out : where do you see someone with a gun?

Also, once you begin argumenting that "Putler" did the same, you show as someone who has 0 arguments left  :rolleyes: and you also indirectly accuse Kiev of being as ruthless as their #1 enemy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on June 03, 2014, 02:58:51 pm
I don't know much about politics, about what happens in Ukraine etc. As I said before, I don't like to base my opinion on something that I can't 100% trust to.
But when I see the screenshots of "ukrainian patriots" commenting the 02.06 tragedy, I can't help but facepalm.

Translate it if you can, because I can't.

Source: http://da-dzi.livejournal.com/242896.html

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 03, 2014, 02:59:06 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 03, 2014, 11:24:53 am
I think I was talking about different incident, sorry.
(click to show/hide)
nope its the same. adm building 50+- meters on the left from the park, so the was multiple hits, now they talk about 20x80mm rockets,

Quote from: Macropus on June 03, 2014, 02:58:51 pm
(click to show/hide)
save your breath, in the end they will say it's all the work of Putin's provocators.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 03, 2014, 03:18:13 pm
Quote from: Butan on June 03, 2014, 01:14:49 pm
I would open the gate to sally forth and destroy their forward spawn
Oh I saw THAT. You nuke them from orbit like there is no tomorrow  8-)

Quote from: Butan on June 03, 2014, 01:14:49 pm
<...>
I see guys strolling by a park leisurely and cars driving in and out : where do you see someone with a gun?
I think this sounded wrong. I did not intend to name all casualties combatants, the statement should have been in general, in most any armed conflict, once you take a gun - you become a target. Even if the gun is a toy gun sadly.  That is why the other side will target them. Was it in this case that indeed - pilot of the jet caused the casualties or the supposed AA rocket - I'm not sure. Videos are poor, lack of motive and the seemingly one explosion instead of many would indicate that it was not the pilot. But then who? Probably the ones strolling about jubilant...

Quote from: Butan on June 03, 2014, 01:14:49 pm
Also, once you begin argumenting that "Putler" did the same, you show as someone who has 0 arguments left  :rolleyes: and you also indirectly accuse Kiev of being as ruthless as their #1 enemy.
I'm trying to put this into perspective for the populace, which is 80% supportive of putler. If he says that guys asking for independence and carrying guns in your country and FIGHTING with them are terrorists and that their towns should be semi-leveled - who could argue, that this populace would support current Ukraine government... As for being "as ruthless" - thats your words, not mine and it is you, who is trying to put words into my mouth, that I did not speak. You compare putlers treatment of Chechens Vs Ukraine treatment of separatists and come back with results.

Quote from: Vovka on June 03, 2014, 02:59:06 pm
nope its the same. adm building 50+- meters on the left from the park, so the was multiple hits, now they talk about 20x80mm rockets,
Or single misfired AA rocket. Although its hard to tell. In any case - what is the point in firing dumbfire misiles into a town full of civilians? After months of restraint NOW they start it? I don't see how that achieves anything and thus I don't think, that this is what happened. Although - as I said, hard to say from the videos.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 03, 2014, 06:51:31 pm
Well, first, about that shit in Luhansk - I don't know what happened there, all versions so far are not very believable and in any case there are too many questions. With info given I'd say that it is likely that it was indeed attack by ua plane, but I'm not 100% sure about that. However if that is true, it doesn't make any sense and I hope whoever did that and/or gave orders to do so will be punished and no such stupid moves will be made in future.

(click to show/hide)

I've already seen links to that blog in two unrelated sources, you are third.
There are already a lot of assholes and even more trolls who don't give shit about moral values. From both sides.
But the fact that I see everywhere this post is quite demonstrative. I've also seen plenty of "russian patriots" commenting current events - that all Ukrainians should be eliminated, that western Ukraine should be nuked asap, etc.
At some point I realised that I start hating Russia after reading their posts, then I thought about relatives and friends from Russia and calmed down  :)
And so should you do.

Yes, such people exist, but there are not many of them, and thankfully absolute majority of them don't do anything, but sit at pc and post shit.
And unless you like reading posts filled with hatred and feeling hatred, it is better simply to ignore them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on June 04, 2014, 07:40:30 am
Never meant to say all Ukrainians are bad, I've seen some shit from rus-patriots as well and also I find what this blogger wrote quite ridiculous.
It just saddens me when I see such things but hey, you're right, assholes are always a minority.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 04, 2014, 08:48:46 am
In reality - a complete minority of population is at all able to kill willingly. See here for some reference http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm . The ugly thing is that when you connect "ability to kill" with being a douchebag - and given ~250 mils of participants in this whole affair (both sides), of those 100 mils probable soldiers, of those - I would expect 1-5 mils CAN do the killing. And in those - lets say 1% are psychos. 10-50k of psychos running around with guns (POTENTIALLY!). Even a small part of those is a cause for major problems, when they are unleashed...

It will take some steel nerves and hard work to get over this whole orchestrated BS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 04, 2014, 04:13:11 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 04, 2014, 09:01:06 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 04, 2014, 08:48:46 am
In reality - a complete minority of population is at all able to kill willingly. See here for some reference http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm . The ugly thing is that when you connect "ability to kill" with being a douchebag - and given ~250 mils of participants in this whole affair (both sides), of those 100 mils probable soldiers, of those - I would expect 1-5 mils CAN do the killing. And in those - lets say 1% are psychos. 10-50k of psychos running around with guns (POTENTIALLY!). Even a small part of those is a cause for major problems, when they are unleashed...

It will take some steel nerves and hard work to get over this whole orchestrated BS.

Thanks to confirm what I've said about mercenaries snipers at Maidan....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on June 05, 2014, 12:27:18 am
Putin was interviewed by french journalists, also will be welcomed for the commemorating of the 70th anniversary of the d-day for the first time.

If someone can translate in english everything that have/will be said in this topic, it could be interesting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 05, 2014, 12:43:31 am
It was a way to say "fuck you" to the US for the 10 billion$ BNP 's fee.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 05, 2014, 02:17:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 04, 2014, 09:01:06 pm
Thanks to confirm what I've said about mercenaries snipers at Maidan....

You have an interesting condition... I believe its called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia, no?

As to putlers visit to the D-day aniversary - at least someone agreed to sit next to the guy. Would have been quite uncomfortable... Shame about the french still willing to give the out-dated russian navy these two new mistral ships, but... Cash is cash, even if you sell integrity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 05, 2014, 02:43:30 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 04, 2014, 09:01:06 pm
Thanks to confirm what I've said about mercenaries snipers at Maidan....
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on June 05, 2014, 04:17:45 pm
Leave it to the French to sell out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 05:44:56 pm
Pavlichenko would be so mad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 06:02:05 pm
This thread is still the same. Funny how Tovi didn't change at all. Looks like this war on the east is going to last at least months if not years. Separatists are hiding in the populated cities which doesn't make it possible to destroy them without collateral damage. Still nothing new, Russian media still sings a song about nаzi Ukrainian junta fighting against antifascist heroes and liberators. It looks like they're playing a game where you have to replace the text with the exactly opposite meaning to get the truth. I think someone posted it months ago here. Here are photoes of Right Sector. How can you call them nаzis?

See? They don't even have weapons.
(click to show/hide)

Dmytro Yarosh. The leader of Right Sector. This sign isn't even swаstika.
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 06:09:49 pm
There's really no doubt that these guys are neo-nazi, like Golden Dawn for example.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 07:25:37 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 06:09:49 pm
There's really no doubt that these guys are neo-chocolate chip cookie, like Golden Dawn for example.

The only thing is that these people are not Right Sector. It was my sarcasm. This is of course not Dmytro Yarosh, it's Pavel Gubarev, the so called leader of DPR (Donetsk People Republic) who is meant to fight against nаzis according to Russian media. He's a member (in the past at least) of the neonаzi organization "Russian Unity".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on June 05, 2014, 07:57:39 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 06:02:05 pm
This thread is still the same. Funny how Tovi didn't change at all. Looks like this war on the east is going to last at least months if not years. Separatists are hiding in the populated cities which doesn't make it possible to destroy them without collateral damage. Still nothing new, Russian media still sings a song about nаzi Ukrainian junta fighting against antifascist heroes and liberators. It looks like they're playing a game where you have to replace the text with the exactly opposite meaning to get the truth. I think someone posted it months ago here. Here are photoes of Right Sector. How can you call them nаzis?

See? They don't even have weapons.
(click to show/hide)

Dmytro Yarosh. The leader of Right Sector. This sign isn't even swаstika.
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Obvious chocolate chip cookies in those pictures. But what do you think of Right Sector?

Here's what Yarosh said in one of the interviews:

Quote
Right of the nation trumps human rights.

Do you think the same?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on June 05, 2014, 08:01:49 pm
Bah. They only use their right hands to show how tall Wladimir is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 08:02:59 pm
Quote from: Leshma on June 05, 2014, 07:57:39 pm
Obvious chocolate chip cookies in those pictures. But what do you think of Right Sector?

Here's what Yarosh said in one of the interviews:

Do you think the same?

Who cares about Yarosh? He has no power, no support of people and doesn't try or claim to do anything. And the same thing can be applied to the whole Right Sector.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 05, 2014, 08:25:53 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 05, 2014, 02:17:50 pm
You have an interesting condition... I believe its called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia, no?

As to putlers visit to the D-day aniversary - at least someone agreed to sit next to the guy. Would have been quite uncomfortable... Shame about the french still willing to give the out-dated russian navy these two new mistral ships, but... Cash is cash, even if you sell integrity.

Well, business is business, we learn a lot from the U$.
 So, as we need more russian gas than all those shitty Monsanto GMO, we could say them to go fuck themselves and trade with Russia instead.
We all can see now that the Empire needs a war. Not Russia. Because Russia needs time.
The ukrainian economy will collapse soon, and the West can't save them. What ukrainian people will think about a government wich spend his only few money to bomb his own people ? That joke won't last very long.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on June 05, 2014, 08:31:47 pm
Quote from: Paul on June 05, 2014, 08:01:49 pm
Bah. They only use their right hands to show how tall Wladimir is.

I LOLED
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 05, 2014, 08:48:34 pm
These ones are fun too (they all have weapons)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on June 05, 2014, 09:00:32 pm
I found this :
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http://tundratabloids.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ukraine-chocolate chip cookies-prepare-for-london-olympics.jpg

True ?

shit there is "n a z i " in name of picture.....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 11:02:04 pm
Quote from: pepejul on June 05, 2014, 09:00:32 pm
I found this :
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http://tundratabloids.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ukraine-chocolate chip cookies-prepare-for-london-olympics.jpg

True ?

shit there is "n a z i " in name of picture.....

I've reached the picture. Here it is.
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It may be, why not? But you know journalists, 3 nаzis trained 2 hooligans and it's a sensation. In fact far right ideology is common among football hooligans all over the world, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. But as we can say from the time perspective: "havoc" during the match didn't happen. What is Berserker T-shirt btw? Once I googled it - it showed the reference to Jay and Silent Bob :lol: The word on T-shirt is "Varangians", most likely the name of hooligans group. The flag is a banner of social-nationalist (they call themselves so, in fact they're far right neonаzis) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriots_of_Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kato on June 05, 2014, 11:15:36 pm
Its ridiculous how Russian propaganda continues with their chocolate chip cookie bullshit even after president election.

Dmytro Yarosh   Right Sector 0.70%

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 11:24:34 pm
Quote from: Kato on June 05, 2014, 11:15:36 pm
Its ridiculous how Russian propaganda continues with their chocolate chip cookie bullshit even after president election.

Dmytro Yarosh   Right Sector 0.70%

What's funnier is that communist Symonenko had 1.53% votes which is twice more. But you know, how cynic it might sound but if you take these far-right organizations - if you take out nаzi shit out of them then they become fantastically useful organizations. They teach how to live a healthy life, they create groups to help army and connect youth with it and so on, they teach patriotism. But most of these positive things get crossed with nаzi aspects (but to tell the truth, not all of them are really nаzi, and none of them can be compared with german brutal nаzis) so I guess such organizations make more harm to Ukraine's image. On the other side there are Ukrainian communists who are completely degenerative, entirely useless and always want to destroy Ukraine as a unite and free country. Most of them took the label of communists just to get into big politics and steal money from the budget. These communists are not even communists, such a profanation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 11:54:16 pm
Igor Bezler, lieutenant colonel of Russian GRU, one of the main commanders of separatists: killing 2 kidnapped Ukrainian officers claiming that he will kill more if Ukrainians don't free some of separatists. Not sure if those people are really those 2 officers (names are given by him during the video but no faces are shown) and if they're really killed. You better watch this video before it gets deleted again.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 11:57:00 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 11:24:34 pm
Most of them took the label of communists just to get into big politics and steal money from the budget. These communists are not even communists, such a profanation.

Sounds like schoolbook communism to me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 06, 2014, 12:01:30 am
Quote from: Kafein on June 05, 2014, 11:57:00 pm
Sounds like schoolbook communism to me.

It is what it is. Everyone knows in Ukraine that our communists is a joke. It's like vegans who eat meat on breakfast and fish on dinner.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 01:47:00 am
лиц не показали, тела не показали, "убитые" падают на попку боясь падения (для примера посмотри расстрел сербов или русских чеченами, обмякают ноги и падают на спину или лицом в низ, эти же подают на попки и взбрыкивают ножками). А так да, у нас все резиденты ФСБ заливают видюшки в сеть, они так перед путиным отчитываются.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 06, 2014, 07:53:45 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 05, 2014, 06:02:05 pm
This thread is still the same. Funny how Tovi didn't change at all. Looks like this war on the east is going to last at least months if not years. Separatists are hiding in the populated cities which doesn't make it possible to destroy them without collateral damage. Still nothing new, Russian media still sings a song about nаzi Ukrainian junta fighting against antifascist heroes and liberators. It looks like they're playing a game where you have to replace the text with the exactly opposite meaning to get the truth. I think someone posted it months ago here. Here are photoes of Right Sector. How can you call them nаzis?

See? They don't even have weapons.
(click to show/hide)

Dmytro Yarosh. The leader of Right Sector. This sign isn't even swаstika.
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
You need a proper good cookie for this. Such a trap! :D
Next thing you know - take some random russia neo-choco gang and put them up as "another pro-chocolate" organization ruling Ukraine, and then reveal the opposite :D
Well played.

Quote from: Tovi on June 05, 2014, 08:25:53 pm
Well, business is business, we learn a lot from the U$.
 So, as we need more russian gas than all those shitty Monsanto GMO, we could say them to go fuck themselves and trade with Russia instead.
We all can see now that the Empire needs a war. Not Russia. Because Russia needs time.
The ukrainian economy will collapse soon, and the West can't save them. What ukrainian people will think about a government wich spend his only few money to bomb his own people ? That joke won't last very long.
Oh... I DO hope you try business with putlers russia. Makes one learn some GOOD lessons. Just be sure to sell more of your weaponry to them and maybe lease the french legion for a decade or two? You know... just to get rid of all the "willingness to fight".
Oh, and DO close your NPP's, so that like Germany, you become more dependent on russia... THAT'll work, I guarantee it!

Also, question to the RT clientele: do you usually have a lot of armed bands roving in russia in armored vehicles and trucks? And do your border guards always are that willing to let them pass into neighboring countries?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 08:35:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on June 06, 2014, 07:53:45 am
Also, question to the RT clientele: do you usually have a lot of armed bands roving in russia in armored vehicles and trucks? And do your border guards always are that willing to let them pass into neighboring countries?
oh it's a common thing in Russia, in Moscow on Red Square Putin arming volunteers put on tanks and under the waving flag they are transported to neighboring countries. On the border our border guards fired into the air, shouting Heil Putin and  shoot in any who try to stop the convoy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 06, 2014, 10:22:53 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 01:47:00 am
лиц не показали, тела не показали, "убитые" падают на попку боясь падения (для примера посмотри расстрел сербов или русских чеченами, обмякают ноги и падают на спину или лицом в низ, эти же подают на попки и взбрыкивают ножками). А так да, у нас все резиденты ФСБ заливают видюшки в сеть, они так перед путиным отчитываются.
Soz for Russian  :oops:

Как я и написал в своём посте, что меня не убедило, названные ли это офицеры и убили ли их вообще. Выстрелы был, но попаданий я не заметил, похоже на холостые, с холостыми в упор стрелять нельзя, а с такого расстояния нормально.  Но с другой стороны после такого "дальнего" расстрела люди могут падать, как угодно, т.к. не факт, что попадание смертельное. Тем не менее, это не особо меняет сути, на видео сам Игорь Безлер, такие методы и угрозы казни в случае невыполнения своих требований - "мирные сторонники федерализации", ага. А в России тем временем этих людей называют героями, проплаченные развлекательные сайты с удовольствием пихают посты, где даже Царёва называют героем, просто фейспалм  :| Кстати, читал здесь про Луганск и взрыв в администрации. Мне тяжело сказать, какова причина того взрыва/взрывов и наведение ракеты на кондиционер достаточно наивно звучит (ракета наводится на более высокую температуру, во всяком случае должна), с другой стороны я точно уверен, что этот взрыв не имеет связи с приложенным к нему видео с самолётом, выпускающим заряды. Во-первых, он их выпускал в другую сторону территориально, во-вторых,  количество (хотя бы потенциальное) взрывов и повреждения после такого залпа не соответствуют друг другу. Ситуация непонятная и убедительных доказательств произошедшего нет (в открытом доступе я их не смог найти). Возможно, что это был авиаудар, но не связанный с тем самолётом, который показан. Конечно, такая версия выгодна сепаратистам: клятые бЕндеровцы стреляют по мирным жителям с воздуха. Не стоит забывать "Нону" сепаратистов, которая стреляла из жилых кварталов, поэтому их методы не стоит выбрасывать на второй план. Даже, если это ложь, то она похожа на правду  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 06, 2014, 10:23:51 am
http://forum.melee.org/1056109110891089108210861103107910991095108510991081-10921086108810911084/ (http://forum.melee.org/1056109110891089108210861103107910991095108510991081-10921086108810911084/)

Quote from: DaveUKR on June 06, 2014, 10:22:53 am
(click to show/hide)

That.. actually made sense in Google Translate. What the hell.

Lost it at "feyspalm"  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 10:49:35 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 06, 2014, 10:22:53 am
(click to show/hide)
[/spoiler]

Quote from: DaveUKR on June 06, 2014, 10:22:53 am
Во-первых, он их выпускал в другую сторону территориально, во-вторых,  количество (хотя бы потенциальное) взрывов и повреждения после такого залпа не соответствуют друг другу.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 06, 2014, 01:42:36 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 10:49:35 am
[/spoiler]
(click to show/hide)
Could shoot Vs DID shoot.

Oh, and latest news by the self proclaimed leader of Luhansk peoples whatever, V. Bolotov: "NATO SNIPERS, INCLUDING LITHUANIANS, are fighting against us". Here you go Butan, proof that no everyone in NATO is coward and take no action!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 09:44:07 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 06, 2014, 01:42:36 pm
Could shoot Vs DID shoot.

Oh, and latest news by the self proclaimed leader of Luhansk peoples whatever, V. Bolotov: "NATO SNIPERS, INCLUDING LITHUANIANS, are fighting against us". Here you go Butan, proof that no everyone in NATO is coward and take no action!  :rolleyes:

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not nato just polaks (Jerzy Dziewulski) XD
the ones that have been trained fighters in the forests of Poland for Maidan, you must remember them

btw on his knees
(click to show/hide)
or
(click to show/hide)
not sure  :P
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 08, 2014, 05:19:10 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 08, 2014, 12:38:19 pm
"Humanitarian supply of lard. Ukrainians love this shit!"

Most of the westerners that visit me and get offered this ALWAYS refuse after they understand whats on the table  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on June 08, 2014, 06:08:10 pm

so cute
http://coub.com/view/1zalr
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 08, 2014, 10:43:54 pm
(click to show/hide)

lmao. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tights)

I'm still unsure if they're being serious or if this is just a satire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 05:08:35 am
Quote from: Christo on June 08, 2014, 05:19:10 am

 they read letters from children, and if the letter not good - they bomb their homes  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 09, 2014, 05:44:12 am
Vovka pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 11:19:39 am
Our brainwa...media says, that there was a plane shot down by something called 9K333 „Verba“, which is produced in russia and not widely available to even russia forces. What does RT/LifeNews/KremlinNews say about this?
http://defencerussia.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/russian-troops-to-get-new-verba-manpads/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 09, 2014, 11:59:59 am
Maybe that you can't kill people and expect they will not defend themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 09, 2014, 12:02:43 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 09, 2014, 11:59:59 am
Maybe that you can't kill people and expect they will not defend themselves.

- There are ukrainian army units attacking us!

- Bljat, better start shooting planes

Tovi wtf.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 11:19:39 am
Our brainwa...media says, that there was a plane shot down by something called 9K333 „Verba“, which is produced in russia and not widely available to even russia forces. What does RT/LifeNews/KremlinNews say about this?
http://defencerussia.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/russian-troops-to-get-new-verba-manpads/

 I would not believe the media, who can not see the difference between the explosion conditioner from overheating, and MANPADS or missiles XD
I think separatists desperately try to pretend that they support by Russia. But it's hard to believe that with the support of Russia, they can not defeat the Ukrainian army, which is armed with donations through sms messages.

bet it was was spontaneous combustion of the Chinese mobile phone charger, or explosion microwave  on board the aircraft.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 09, 2014, 01:23:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
But it's hard to believe that with the support of Russia, they can not defeat the Ukrainian army, which is armed with donations through sms messages.
Good god, no wonder Russians buy into all the propaganda when they're this dumb.

Russia wants instability, it doesn't want to capture whole Ukraine through a few thousand separatists.....

And how the fuck would they defeat the whole Ukrainian MILITARY without Russia doing a mass scale invasion???
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 01:31:20 pm
Quote from: Xant on June 09, 2014, 01:23:53 pm
Good god, no wonder Russians buy into all the propaganda when they're this dumb.
Russia wants instability, it doesn't want to capture whole Ukraine through a few thousand separatists.....
And how the fuck would they defeat the whole Ukrainian MILITARY without Russia doing a mass scale invasion???
  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 01:46:42 pm
Whats the story with the exploding air conditioner? I missed something.

Also - Vovka  - close yo borders, too much armed fucks going through it. </mediareports>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 02:03:20 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 01:46:42 pm
Whats the story with the exploding air conditioner? I missed something.

After the release of the version "MANPADS missiles hit air conditioning, in the ruInternet appeared  version that all Ukrainian army shoted down helicopters, actually a result of spontaneous combustion air conditioners installed on them.

Quote from: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 01:46:42 pm
Also - Vovka  - close yo borders, too much armed fucks going through it. </mediareports>

 Russia is a free country u can take all ur shit and go where you want.  At a time when every second has a high definition camcorder on the clock and even cuff links, media still uses photos from the Internet and cutted video clip (( checked 100500 resources and all of them repost same shit from forums and twitters ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 02:15:05 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 02:03:20 pm
After the release of the version "MANPADS missiles hit air conditioning, in the ruInternet appeared  version that all Ukrainian army shoted down helicopters, actually a result of spontaneous combustion air conditioners installed on them.
Does the spontaneous conditioner for hair work on the "white tights" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tights)?

Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 02:03:20 pm
Russia is a free country u can take all ur shit and go where you want.  At a time when every second has a high definition camcorder on the clock and even cuff links, media still uses photos from the Internet and cutted video clip (( checked 100500 resources and all of them repost same shit from forums and twitters ((

Wait... so there are not assault rifle armed gangs forming up in russia and then fighting their way into Ukraine? RLY?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 02:51:36 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 02:15:05 pm
Does the spontaneous conditioner for hair work on the "white tights" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tights)?
it is a myth invented by the people with great pride from a small country that would tout its importance in world politics
Quote from: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 02:15:05 pm
Wait... so there are not assault rifle armed gangs forming up in russia and then fighting their way into Ukraine? RLY?
Quote from: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 08:35:56 am
oh it's a common thing in Russia, in Moscow on Red Square Putin arming volunteers put on tanks and under the waving flag they are transported to neighboring countries. On the border our border guards fired into the air, shouting Heil Putin and  shoot in any who try to stop the convoy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 03:13:41 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 02:51:36 pm
it is a myth invented by the people with great pride from a small country that would tout its importance in world politics
Wait... LifeNews is owned by a "small country that would tout its importance in world politics"?  :?

Also - found some funny compilation of "facts" by russian media :)
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-20-lies-about-ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 09, 2014, 04:07:37 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
I would not believe the media, who can not see the difference between the explosion conditioner from overheating, and MANPADS or missiles XD
I think separatists desperately try to pretend that they support by Russia. But it's hard to believe that with the support of Russia, they can not defeat the Ukrainian army, which is armed with donations through sms messages.

bet it was was spontaneous combustion of the Chinese mobile phone charger, or explosion microwave  on board the aircraft.

+1
With russian help, separatists would be actually in Kiev.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 09, 2014, 04:58:28 pm
With US help, the Right Sector would be in Moscow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 09, 2014, 05:06:08 pm
.-.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 09, 2014, 06:29:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 09, 2014, 04:07:37 pm
+1
With russian help, separatists would be actually in Kiev.
Tovi joins the retards with no sense of "scale."

Either there's 0 help, or there's 10000 tanks and 100000000000000 infantry and 200 nukes help.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 07:55:38 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 09, 2014, 03:13:41 pm
Also - found some funny compilation of "facts" by russian media :)
http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-20-lies-about-ukraine
as I already said its not a problem Russian media, but the problem media in the general. Most of the "news" they get from social networks, twitter and youtube. By the phrase "my dog ate shit" they add "from our source became known that @dog eat shit@" then gogled picture which satisfies the topic. it worked for years, but now with the help of Google even idiot can make a fast search by the picture, dats why so many "revelations"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 09, 2014, 08:35:44 pm
For russian speaking - some interesting info from Sloviansk resident http://petrimazepa.com/ua/right-now.html

Actually, very good reading, worth to read to end
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on June 09, 2014, 08:54:21 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 09, 2014, 04:58:28 pm
With US help, the Right Sector would be in Moscow.

Right Sector is already in Moscow, in a way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 09, 2014, 10:47:46 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 10, 2014, 08:01:16 am
Ugh, that collapsing guard.

Yeah I've seen people fall from heat before but that timing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 10, 2014, 09:14:02 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 07:55:38 pm
as I already said its not a problem Russian media, but the problem media in the general. Most of the "news" they get from social networks, twitter and youtube. By the phrase "my dog ate shit" they add "from our source became known that @dog eat shit@" then gogled picture which satisfies the topic. it worked for years, but now with the help of Google even idiot can make a fast search by the picture, dats why so many "revelations"
You know Vovka - don't get me wrong, its not specifically about you - but the VERY FACT that you see this as "a norm" is indicative of something being rotten to the core. If you find some prominent news outled was doing this kind of shady stuff - they print an editorial apology and sack/penalize the perpetrating journalist. While in putlers russia - you accept it as a norm. Its not NORMAL. Its fucked up shit. :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 10, 2014, 11:44:24 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
I would not believe the media, who can not see the difference between the explosion conditioner from overheating, and MANPADS or missiles XD
I think separatists desperately try to pretend that they support by Russia. But it's hard to believe that with the support of Russia, they can not defeat the Ukrainian army, which is armed with donations through sms messages.

bet it was was spontaneous combustion of the Chinese mobile phone charger, or explosion microwave  on board the aircraft.

Where did you read about explosion of an overheated air conditioner? There was a version that a missile got focused on it instead of a plane. But anyway, even I can't say what happened there having some certain military experience, how would a bunch of journalists know? Both versions sound extremely doubtful. Anyway you overestimate Russian military forces. With your corruption, your army isn't much better than Ukrainian. The only difference is in elitism which is standing not on actions but words.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 10, 2014, 11:45:21 am
Quote from: Christo on June 10, 2014, 08:01:16 am
Ugh, that collapsing guard.

Yeah I've seen people fall from heat before but that timing.

Ice cold chocolate maker didn't melt for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 11, 2014, 12:12:41 am
if russians would help any more visibly than by now i believe the real economic sanctions would be put into the place.

the question for everyone would be: wanna trade with amuricans or with russians, your choice... and we all know how it would end up. the only technology left in russia would be abacus and a knowledge of how to make nukes and vodka; in a few years there would be no vovka in the evil cia's internet discussions anymore unless he'd emigrate to another country or would smuggle himself some pc from india...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 11, 2014, 12:23:09 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on June 11, 2014, 12:12:41 am
if russians would help any more visibly than by now i believe the real economic sanctions would be put into the place.
the question for everyone would be: wanna trade with amuricans or with russians, your choice... and we all know how it would end up. the only technology left in russia would be abacus and a knowledge of how to make nukes and vodka; in a few years there would be no vovka in the evil cia's internet discussions anymore unless he'd emigrate to another country or would smuggle himself some pc from india...
in Russian oil and gas reserves by approximately for another 30 years, and after 30 years I would die in a flash of a nuclear explosion with a smile, knowing that half of Russian old missiles will fall half way from Russia to murica XD (same about muricans rokkets XD)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on June 11, 2014, 12:39:04 am
Big difference in hating on Russians and hating their government... Just saying. Kind of important distinction there, especially since I and many others don't consider russia a working democracy. I like Russians :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 11, 2014, 12:41:21 am
Fuck democracy! Hail Putin!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 11, 2014, 06:30:36 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on June 11, 2014, 12:12:41 am
if russians would help any more visibly than by now i believe the real economic sanctions would be put into the place.

the question for everyone would be: wanna trade with amuricans or with russians, your choice... and we all know how it would end up. the only technology left in russia would be abacus and a knowledge of how to make nukes and vodka; in a few years there would be no vovka in the evil cia's internet discussions anymore unless he'd emigrate to another country or would smuggle himself some pc from india...

Nope, no choice. Europeans can't trade with Russia because USA don't want.

Quote
Sofia (AFP) - Bulgaria is suspending work on the disputed Russian-backed South Stream gas pipeline following criticism from the EU and United States, Prime Minister Plamen Oresharski announced on Sunday.
"I have ordered all work to be stopped. We will decide on further developments following consultations with Brussels*," Oresharski said after a meeting with US senators.

The European Union on Tuesday asked Bulgaria to suspend work on the multinational pipeline project, designed to bring Russian gas to Europe while bypassing crisis-hit Ukraine.

The European Commission said the project may break EU rules. In mid-April, it had already called for the project, led by Russian gas giant Gazprom, to be scrapped as a rebuke to Moscow for its actions in Ukraine.

But the Commission, the EU's executive, has refrained from pushing for an outright cancellation and has instead engaged in a legal showdown with Gazprom and Bulgaria over regulatory details of the project.

Criticism also came from the US after Sofia last month chose a consortium led by Stroytransgaz -- a Russian company subject to US sanctions -- to build the Bulgarian section of the pipeline.
View gallery
Bulgaria&#39;s Prime Minister Plamen Oresharski (R)&nbsp;&hellip;
Bulgaria's Prime Minister Plamen Oresharski (R) attends a meeting in Sofia on June 5, 2014 (AFP  …

In a statement on Friday, the US ambassador to Bulgaria Marcie B. Ries said Washington was "deeply concerned" by the decision.

"Now is not the time for business as usual with Russia," she noted. "We advise Bulgarian businesses to avoid working with entities sanctioned by the United States."

Bulgaria, which is entirely dependent on Russian gas supplies via Ukraine, was desperate to ensure it did not suffer another cut-off next time there is a dispute between Kiev and Moscow.

It was also keen to earn the large transit fees that would come from hosting the pipeline.

"We join... the government of Bulgaria in seeking as a first priority energy independence from any country," said US senator John McCain, who met with Bulgarian leaders on Sunday in Sofia along with several other senators.

But he insisted: "We would like to see as little Russian involvement as possible."

Work on South Stream, which is to pass through Serbia and the EU nations of Greece, Italy, Hungary, Slovenia and Austria, was due to begin in the summer.
*Note that Brussel Commission is under american influence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 11, 2014, 08:45:43 am
Quote from: Tovi on June 11, 2014, 06:30:36 am
Nope, no choice. Europeans can't trade with Russia because USA don't want.
*Note that Brussel Commission is under american influence.
No way Tovi... EU Commission is calling the king naked (as the saying goes) and they are suddenly US lackeys and under their influence.  Can you make your own tinfoil hat or should I help you with one?

putlers russia is an ugly and untrustworthy partner and its only reasonable to minimize interaction with such "partners".

In other news - an unexpected one... although.... (http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/polandball-thread/msg963557/#msg963557)
Well, anyway - Finland is about to cause WWIII if they join NATO, according to an envoy of putler Sergey Markov. So, finnish comrades - do you feel more secure now?  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 11, 2014, 09:18:10 am
Quote from: Kuujis on June 11, 2014, 08:45:43 am
Can you make your own tinfoil hat or should I help you with one?
Give him one from your personal collection  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 11, 2014, 09:24:13 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 11, 2014, 09:18:10 am
Give him one from your personal collection  :lol:
I cherrish them all. They are specifically adapted for a whole range of dangers. Saying "give him one" is like saying "give up one of your wives"... but one of them is a great cook, another raises kids, the third makes awesome coctails and massage... You cant just "give one", they are ALL needed. Strange you don't understand that, of all the people...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 11, 2014, 01:21:28 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 11, 2014, 12:23:09 am
in Russian oil and gas reserves by approximately for another 30 years, and after 30 years I would die in a flash of a nuclear explosion with a smile, knowing that half of Russian old missiles will fall half way from Russia to murica XD (same about muricans rokkets XD)

poor azores :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 11, 2014, 11:48:22 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 11, 2014, 08:45:43 am
No way Tovi... EU Commission is calling the king naked (as the saying goes) and they are suddenly US lackeys and under their influence.  Can you make your own tinfoil hat or should I help you with one?

putlers russia is an ugly and untrustworthy partner and its only reasonable to minimize interaction with such "partners".

In other news - an unexpected one... although.... (http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/polandball-thread/msg963557/#msg963557)
Well, anyway - Finland is about to cause WWIII if they join NATO, according to an envoy of putler Sergey Markov. So, finnish comrades - do you feel more secure now?  8-)

Yes, such unfair partner lol : http://ru.faktxeber.com/ggg-ggggg-gggggggg---ggg-ggggg-_h432613.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 12, 2014, 08:04:00 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 12, 2014, 08:33:12 am
Quote from: Tovi on June 11, 2014, 11:48:22 pm
Yes, such unfair partner lol : http://ru.faktxeber.com/ggg-ggggg-gggggggg---ggg-ggggg-_h432613.html
it was a top secret info now they are  banned http://ru.faktxeber.com/  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 12, 2014, 08:43:49 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 12, 2014, 08:33:12 am
it was a top secret info now they are  banned http://ru.faktxeber.com/  :lol:
CBA to read kirilica. Care to provide engrish TLDR version?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 12, 2014, 08:12:01 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 12, 2014, 08:43:49 am
CBA to read kirilica. Care to provide engrish TLDR version?  :rolleyes:

It was about how Putin fulled the westerner banksters and get the russian oil industry back to Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 12, 2014, 08:28:15 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 12, 2014, 08:12:01 pm
It was about how Putin fulled the westerner banksters and get the russian oil industry back to Russia.
Just to make a very very VERY bad deal with China to get at least money into the country :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 12, 2014, 08:39:14 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 12, 2014, 09:53:40 pm
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2014, 08:28:15 pm
Just to make a very very VERY bad deal with China to get at least money into the country :D

Why bad ? Not so bad, just a little cheaper than for europeans. But they must build the pipeline first.
It will be a major diplomatic advantage in the future. Because Russia could cut the gas to Europe (not actually),in case of sanctions.
And Europe will never be able to buy Shale Gas from Americans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 12:50:16 am
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 10:30:11 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 12:50:16 am
(click to show/hide)
You still buy this crap from exclusive LifeNews about Ukraine suddenly deciding "fuck this restraint on using heavy artilery, lets bomb the shit out of those civilians!"? Care to request your own personal tinfoil hat?

Just because it was OK for putler to order similar BS in Chechnya - it does not mean that every government will choose to follow this "example".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 12:40:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 10:30:11 am
You still buy this crap from exclusive LifeNews about Ukraine suddenly deciding "fuck this restraint on using heavy artilery, lets bomb the shit out of those civilians!"? Care to request your own personal tinfoil hat?

Just because it was OK for putler to order similar BS in Chechnya - it does not mean that every government will choose to follow this "example".

Can you prove that all informations from Russia are false ? You never give any information and you never make any personal research. My conclusion is that you are a racist: All that comes from Russia is BAD and that's your unique argument.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 13, 2014, 12:48:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 12:40:56 pm
..My conclusion is that you are a racist: All that comes from Russia is BAD and that's your unique argument.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 12:55:47 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 12:40:56 pm
Can you prove that all informations from Russia are false ? You never give any information and you never make any personal research. My conclusion is that you are a racist: All that comes from Russia is BAD and that's your unique argument.
I fucking lol'ed :)

"Can I prove that all informations from Rrussia areis false." No, I can't. Can you prove all of it is correct (which is what I would expect from a reliable news outlet)? No you can't, because they lied time and time again. And you do not see a problem with that, while I do. (mind the lowercase r in russia, this is obvious proof of racism and must be noted and respected!)

"You never give any information and you never make any personal research." Your opinion is noted and discarded, have a good day!  :mrgreen:

"My conclusion is that you are a racist: All that comes from Russia is BAD and that's your unique argument." I'm a racist, because I call putlers media in russia for a bullshit that it is? Thats deep man, real deep. (also note that putlers name is again lower-cased to underscore my childishness!)

You generalize ad-absurdum and ask me to prove the impossible, you do ad hominem in quite funny way and you presume to know what I want to say/state based on my question to Vovka regarding a tinfoil hat.  You are an epic no-shit-sherlock guy, keep being awesome!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 01:18:13 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 12:50:16 am
(click to show/hide)


Let's make a rule not to post any videos from Life News. For those who don't know: it's one of the most popular examples of Russian's yellow press. It's known for posting and making fakes, obvious lies, unproven info etc. I didn't find any proofs of Ukrainians using phosphorus incendiary bombs. Also I didn't find any result of this video (post it please if anyone of you did).

Here's some info to think about: Today pro-Russian separatists with 2 GRADs (Ukrainians don't use it in ATO) were trying to make an artillery attack on Ukrainian block-post but due to unknown reasons (unskilled operators, map mistakes, night time or whatever else), rockets landed on a civilian vegetable warehouse and the other civilian building nearby. This resulted in a death of one and a severe injury of the other young civilians: one woman (worker of warehouse) and a man (who was working in a building nearby, he unfortunately died). Separatists got instantly chased by Ukrainian forces, they abandoned GRADs and are trying to get away in BTR (APC).

Photoes (18+)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 01:29:01 pm

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 01:51:16 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 01:29:01 pm
THIS is how phosphorus rounds look like, when they are meant to do damage:

The shit you are showing is at best smoke-screen. Also - had a nice laught at the time when "Ukrainian forces are using phosporus rounds in living quarters <...>" and meanwhile smoke screen is dropping in some fields behind.

AT THE SAME TIME -  I can only applaud the "journalists" who were able to catch the exact moment of shelling. Keeping in mind, that it only lasts for  seconds - that was a truly amazing feat.

Unless ofc it WAS smoke screen and smoke shells... in which case... well... can I get you a tinfoil hat maybe?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 02:06:04 pm
firstly I never wrote about "phosphorus bombs", it is probably illumination shells, which are used not as planned ^^
secondly, even if I make a photo with your mom that keeps the newspaper you're still going to argue that it feik so in the future I will just ignore you ((
blog residents available online, they bombed 20 times a day, so not difficult to photograph catch these moments
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 02:23:56 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 02:06:04 pm
firstly I never wrote about "phosphorus bombs", it is probably illumination shells, which are used not as planned ^^
secondly, even if I make a photo with your mom that keeps the newspaper you're still going to argue that it feik so in the future I will just ignore you ((
blog residents available online, they bombed 20 times a day, so not difficult to photograph catch these moments
Dude, you post some shit videos about phosphorous rounds and then go full akward "I never wrote about them...". illumination shells hang in the air on small parachutes, akin to signal flares. Don't pretend to be dumb, their JOB is to stay in the sky, not on the ground. And then call this "bombing"... smoke screening? Likely. Lighting up ground (sic) - MAYBE. Bombing? Only in putlers media.

And afterwards you have problem with me not giving credibility to russian media...

Sweetest cherry on to - the "yo mama" joke... so cute! Here you go a puppy:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 02:29:01 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 02:06:04 pm
firstly I never wrote about "phosphorus bombs", it is probably illumination shells, which are used not as planned ^^
secondly, even if I make a photo with your mom that keeps the newspaper you're still going to argue that it feik so in the future I will just ignore you ((
blog residents available online, they bombed 20 times a day, so not difficult to photograph catch these moments

Well, why posting this shit then? It's obvious for anyone at least 1% competent in military things that these are not phosphorus bombs. Yet you still post 2 videos of famous Russian yellow press who claim that these are phosphorus bombs. Your quote:

Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
I would not believe the media, who can not see the difference between the explosion conditioner from overheating, and MANPADS or missiles XD

But you post this. Twice. Fuck logic, yes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 05:06:31 pm
Dave is there any progress in investigation of deathes in Odessa and on Maidan?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 06:09:56 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 02:29:01 pm
Well, why posting this shit then? It's obvious for anyone at least 1% competent in military things that these are not phosphorus bombs. Yet you still post 2 videos of famous Russian yellow press who claim that these are phosphorus bombs. Your quote:
But you post this. Twice. Fuck logic, yes.

 I show the video, which I believe filmed in Ukraine, if the press shows the video with kittens, and call them  ducks it does not mean that these kittens are non-existent. It's sad that you judge a video by its name.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 06:35:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 13, 2014, 06:09:56 pm
I show the video, which I believe filmed in Ukraine, if the press shows the video with kittens, and call them  ducks it does not mean that these kittens are non-existent. It's sad that you judge a video by its name.

So what's the point of posting this video then? It doesn't show anything besides that these reporters don't know or don't want to know what phosphorus bombs are. It's sad that you don't understand that the content of this video receives the very different meaning if it has such a name. Both content and names are bullshit, how else should I judge it? I give 2/10 for scenario and 3/10 for filming, also Aleksandr Kots will not receive Oscar for the last video, do you want this or what?

Quote from: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 05:06:31 pm
Dave is there any progress in investigation of deathes in Odessa and on Maidan?
I didn't track it. I think it's not the matter of the first importance now. Well, with tanks coming through Russia-Ukraine border I think that the majority of former questions are not needed to be questioned anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 06:47:12 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 06:35:27 pm
I didn't track it. I think it's not the matter of the first importance now. Well, with tanks coming through Russia-Ukraine border I think that the majority of former questions are not needed to be questioned anymore.
Why so many people were killed and that is not important? How many tanks crossed the border? Are this official forces of Russia or just somebody sent them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 06:53:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 06:47:12 pm
Why so many people were killed and that is not important? How many tanks crossed the border? Are this official forces of Russia or just somebody sent them?
Are roving bands NOW WITH FUCKING TANKS roving in russia and crossing over borders to random countries from russia that you need to ask a question like "Are this official forces of Rrussia or just somebody sent them?"

<lets skip Vovka's answer about heil putler in red square and then bla bla bla...>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 07:00:44 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 06:47:12 pm
Why so many people were killed and that is not important? How many tanks crossed the border? Are this official forces of Russia or just somebody sent them?

Because now people die every given day and will keep dying if nothing is done. I don't know the exact amount of tanks (not only tanks cross borders actually), at least 4 (maybe more, as I've said - I don't know). Russia and official forces = never mention this anymore please, after Crimea it lost any sense at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 07:04:43 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 07:00:44 pm
Because now people die every given day and will keep dying if nothing is done. I don't know the exact amount of tanks (not only tanks cross borders actually), at least 4 (maybe more, as I've said - I don't know). Russia and official forces = never mention this anymore please, after Crimea it lost any sense at all.
To be honest it lost any sense when armed revolution was made in Kiev. And the game between Russia and USA began. Cann't understand why people who support Russia are separatists and people who supports USA are patriots. Why people see only one side of medal and don't want to see another.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 07:09:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 07:04:43 pm
To be honest it lost any sense when armed revolution was made in Kiev. And the game between Russia and USA began.
I feel obliged to offer tinfoil hats to the paranoid who see "USA EVERYWHERE". Can't you fathom why a fucked up people would like to send their government to hell?

Oh, and "white tights" snipers (according to the "exclusive" LifeNews)...

Also - you are hanging a red herring and avoiding any direct answers. I'm happy for you, thats what putler teaches.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 07:46:56 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 06, 2014, 09:44:07 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

not nato just polaks (Jerzy Dziewulski) XD
the ones that have been trained fighters in the forests of Poland for Maidan, you must remember them



My 2 cents on this picture :

The "antiterrorist" forces unleashed by Kiev to ward off the independence of Donbass are led by the Pole Jerzy Dziewulski.

Security advisor to former Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski (1995-1997) and a member of parliament (1991-2005), Jerzy Dziewulski is a Polish officer who underwent operational training in the United States and worked in Israel.

In this photo taken near Slavjansk last week, he is seen on the left-hand side sitting next to Alexander Turchinov (former intelligence chief who was then Acting President of Ukraine), in the center. The "anti-terrorist" operation was carried out under the supervision of Assistant Secretary of U.S. Defense, Derek Chollet.

Poland played an active role in the Maidan riots: some of the leaders were taking orders from by the Polish representative of the European Union in Kiev, Jan Tombiński, while some of the rioters had received prior training from the Polish police. In addition, Poland had a hand in the coup, for which Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski apparently gave the signal after the 21 February mediation meeting between the opposition and President Yanukovych. Sikorski may be thanked for his role in replacing Baroness Catherine Ashton as High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 13, 2014, 08:16:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 12:40:56 pm
Can you prove that all informations from Russia are false ? You never give any information and you never make any personal research. My conclusion is that you are a racist: All that comes from Russia is BAD and that's your unique argument.

You are going full retard. Will you shut up already. I think even russias supporters think u full of shit by now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 08:19:47 pm
I'm a supporter of all the Empire's victims.
Today it's Ukraine, Syria and Irak. Tomorrow, Venezuela and Nigeria. I'll defend them aswell.
We are Legion  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 13, 2014, 08:22:27 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 08:19:47 pm
I'm a supporter of all the Empire's victims.
Today it's Ukraine, Syria and Irak. Tomorrow, Venezuela and Nigeria. I'll defend them aswell.
We are Legion  :wink:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 09:08:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 13, 2014, 07:04:43 pm
To be honest it lost any sense when armed revolution was made in Kiev. And the game between Russia and USA began. Cann't understand why people who support Russia are separatists and people who supports USA are patriots. Why people see only one side of medal and don't want to see another.

You can't understand but you judge. You should ask yourself first before you make assumptions. If you don't understand simple things then you should not make a smartass out of yourself, your logic is binary and doesn't allow to get such things. And I cba to explain it in a 10th time to one more bighead in this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 13, 2014, 10:29:47 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 07:46:56 pm
My 2 cents on this picture :

The "antiterrorist" forces unleashed by Kiev to ward off the independence of Donbass are led by the Pole Jerzy Dziewulski.

Security advisor to former Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski (1995-1997) and a member of parliament (1991-2005), Jerzy Dziewulski is a Polish officer who underwent operational training in the United States and worked in Israel.

In this photo taken near Slavjansk last week, he is seen on the left-hand side sitting next to Alexander Turchinov (former intelligence chief who was then Acting President of Ukraine), in the center. The "anti-terrorist" operation was carried out under the supervision of Assistant Secretary of U.S. Defense, Derek Chollet.

Poland played an active role in the Maidan riots: some of the leaders were taking orders from by the Polish representative of the European Union in Kiev, Jan Tombiński, while some of the rioters had received prior training from the Polish police. In addition, Poland had a hand in the coup, for which Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski apparently gave the signal after the 21 February mediation meeting between the opposition and President Yanukovych. Sikorski may be thanked for his role in replacing Baroness Catherine Ashton as High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.
All this based on one picture, source of which I should accept based on trust? Any OTHER sources maybe? And then one more step forward - maybe any OTHER than putlers media?

Otherwise - Vovka - I think there is a serious marked for tinfoil in russia. New business opportunity! :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 04:54:21 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 09:08:29 pm
You can't understand but you judge. You should ask yourself first before you make assumptions. If you don't understand simple things then you should not make a smartass out of yourself, your logic is binary and doesn't allow to get such things. And I cba to explain it in a 10th time to one more bighead in this thread.
Same of you Dave. You don't know the real facts, you don't know what happens in couloir of world politics. Show me where I'm judging? I see judgement only from you. I'm against people deathes, and I want it to stop. Ofcourse I cant do nothing only shittalking about it like most of us. As I know you are from Odessa, because of that I asked you if there any progress in investigation of murders. You said that this is not important now, because russian tanks crossed the border. The same ukranian btrs crossed the border yesterday. I don't know who are guilty, but as for me if you are trying to kill somebody then you are guilty. I think Russia shouldn't take Crimea, but if she didn't the same would be in Crimea like on the East. It's just my opnion. Dave just want to know. Do you see any wrong doings from Kiev authorities, or you see only Russian wrong doings?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on June 14, 2014, 06:30:45 am
Quote from: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 07:46:56 pm
My 2 cents on this picture :

The "antiterrorist" forces unleashed by Kiev to ward off the independence of Donbass are led by the Pole Jerzy Dziewulski.

Security advisor to former Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski (1995-1997) and a member of parliament (1991-2005), Jerzy Dziewulski is a Polish officer who underwent operational training in the United States and worked in Israel.

In this photo taken near Slavjansk last week, he is seen on the left-hand side sitting next to Alexander Turchinov (former intelligence chief who was then Acting President of Ukraine), in the center. The "anti-terrorist" operation was carried out under the supervision of Assistant Secretary of U.S. Defense, Derek Chollet.

Poland played an active role in the Maidan riots: some of the leaders were taking orders from by the Polish representative of the European Union in Kiev, Jan Tombiński, while some of the rioters had received prior training from the Polish police. In addition, Poland had a hand in the coup, for which Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski apparently gave the signal after the 21 February mediation meeting between the opposition and President Yanukovych. Sikorski may be thanked for his role in replacing Baroness Catherine Ashton as High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.

Poland, of course! They are the aggressor AGAIN. It's time for a Steinmeier-Lawrow pact to stop them and liberate their country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 14, 2014, 09:16:41 am
Quote
Cann't understand why people who support Russia are separatists and people who supports USA are patriots. Why people see only one side of medal and don't want to see another.

This makes others think that you don't know anything about what's happening in east of our country. There is obvious difference. Russia's supporters ultimate goal that they declared long ago is to capture almost half of Ukraine's territory(8 regions) and create state (New Russia) which will join Russia or just be its puppet, depends on Putin decision.

That's why people who don't want Ukraine to be splitted oppose them and I doubt that there are many USA fans there, it would be wrong to call them "people who support USA", "patriots" fits much better. On other hand among separatists there are also a lot of patriots and I don't mind calling them in that way. Just they are patriots of Russia.

Quote
You said that this is not important now, because russian tanks crossed the border. The same ukranian btrs crossed the border yesterday.

No idea what's up with those border crossing and if it's true. I think in this case we'll know the truth sooner or later. 

Quote
I think Russia shouldn't take Crimea, but if she didn't the same would be in Crimea like on the East. It's just my opnion.

With the same propaganda and squads of patriots/cossacks/cookies coming to protect russian people/create some new states, but without russian troops? Yes, likely it would be the same. Without those factors - unlikely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 14, 2014, 10:55:35 am
Quote from: Paul on June 14, 2014, 06:30:45 am
Poland, of course! They are the aggressor AGAIN. It's time for a Steinmeier-Lawrow pact to stop them and liberate their country.

Stop them before they ally with Southernpotato !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 14, 2014, 11:42:13 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 04:54:21 am
I think Russia shouldn't take Crimea, but if she didn't the same would be in Crimea like on the East. It's just my opnion. Dave just want to know. Do you see any wrong doings from Kiev authorities, or you see only Russian wrong doings?

If you really think so then I have nothing to tell you. Because if so then you're Tovi-like and Tovi is just braindead. :rolleyes: Serr tried to explain it to you, but I doubt you'll get it. Of course it would be the same in Crimea like in the east now if Russia didn't invade it with thousands of troops. But you don't get one simple thing: Russia initiated this. Russia wants these territories and it's just such a simple plan that only Tovi can't understand it. How to annex territories today? You can't make a "full assault" (Panos) because you'll get sanctioned to hell or even get the intervention of other powerful countries.

Of course we see bad actions of Kiev authorities, we judge them, we don't support a lot of what they're doing. But it has nothing to do with things that are coming from Russia.
It's very stupid and inappropriate to say that Russia invaded Ukraine because of Maidan. Russia invaded Ukraine because Russia wanted to do so and Maidan was just a perfect time. Separatists are just thugs (same as those thugs who used guns during Maidan protests), they're terrorizing people who live there. Today they destroyed Ukrainian military plane with 49 people in it. And they're hiding in living quarters (Igor "Strelok" Girkin, their military leader, says that it would be stupid to fight openly against Ukrainian army - yes, it would be stupid, but you're hiding behind civilians, douchebag, that once again proves their mission). Just tell me how this Igor Girkin who never even lived in Ukraine can be the main guy who wants to decide its future claiming that it's his lovely motherland?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 01:05:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 14, 2014, 11:42:13 am
And they're hiding in living quarters (Igor "Strelok" Girkin, their military leader, says that it would be stupid to fight openly against Ukrainian army - yes, it would be stupid, but you're hiding behind civilians, douchebag, that once again proves their mission). Just tell me how this Igor Girkin who never even lived in Ukraine can be the main guy who wants to decide its future claiming that it's his lovely motherland?
As I know about 10000 volonteurs got to the East from the Rostov with amunition and they blame Putin that he hasn't entered to the East yet. Maybe this Igor Girkin is one from this 10000 or fake, it's just hard to understand where the truth is. I think Russia didn't have plans to take Crimea, but when the revolution was made, Russia seized the moment and took Crimea, it was easy to take because of Crimea population support. Now Russia wants to stop any military activities, because of gas transportation. Poroshenko said that he will do it on the meeting in France. But nothing was changed. Yes I saw that military plane was destroyed, and this not unique case. Many people were killed from both sides, also from bombing many civililians were killed, children too. I don't support both of the sides. But I think it won't end until anti-terrorist operation won't be stopped. But if it will be stopped then New Russia will be made, where a lot of shale gas is founded, and this is interest of Baiden as we know, so what will happen next.
I see what happens in Libya and Iraq after making democracy there, I don't expect that USA will help Ukraine now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 14, 2014, 01:35:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 01:05:17 pm
As I know about 10000 volonteurs got to the East from the Rostov with amunition and they blame Putin that he hasn't entered to the East yet. Maybe this Igor Girkin is one from this 10000 or fake, it's just hard to understand where the truth is. I think Russia didn't have plans to take Crimea, but when the revolution was made, Russia seized the moment and took Crimea, it was easy to take because of Crimea population support. Now Russia wants to stop any military activities, because of gas transportation. Poroshenko said that he will do it on the meeting in France. But nothing was changed. Yes I saw that military plane was destroyed, and this not unique case. Many people were killed from both sides, also from bombing many civililians were killed, children too. I don't support both of the sides. But I think it won't end until anti-terrorist operation won't be stopped. But if it will be stopped then New Russia will be made, where a lot of shale gas is founded, and this is interest of Baiden as we know, so what will happen next.
I see what happens in Libya and Iraq after making democracy there, I don't expect that USA will help Ukraine now.

If ATO is stopped terrorists will have their hands free and they will keep doing what they did in a more severe form. They'll try to join Russia and will terrorize people who still live there and especially if they don't share their opinion. If you want compare Ukraine to Iraq then you should consider Russia being USA in this case.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 02:01:56 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 14, 2014, 01:35:06 pm
If ATO is stopped terrorists will have their hands free and they will keep doing what they did in a more severe form. They'll try to join Russia and will terrorize people who still live there and especially if they don't share their opinion. If you want compare Ukraine to Iraq then you should consider Russia being USA in this case.
Well maybe, but I don't see that those terrorists kill civilians. But I see that some people in Ukraine were killed because they didn't share the opinion of eurointegration. I don't compare Ukraine to Iraq, I made this example because some of ukranian politics think that USA will help them, as you know I think antiterrorist operation began exactly on the next day of visiting mr. Baiden to Ukraine. And the difference between Iraq and Ukraine is that in Ukraine a lot of russians are living. It's just my opinion that this is politic game between Russia and USA and Ukraine is just a victim of this game. USA will demand from new authorities to continue military operations, Russia will continue to support the East.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 14, 2014, 02:15:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 02:01:56 pm
Well maybe, but I don't see that those terrorists kill civilians. But I see that some people in Ukraine were killed because they didn't share the opinion of eurointegration. I don't compare Ukraine to Iraq, I made this example because some of ukranian politics think that USA will help them, as you know I think antiterrorist operation began exactly on the next day of visiting mr. Baiden to Ukraine. And the difference between Iraq and Ukraine is that in Ukraine a lot of russians are living. It's just my opinion that this is politic game between Russia and USA and Ukraine is just a victim of this game. USA will demand from new authorities to continue military operations, Russia will continue to support the East.

Pointless to speak with you. Sorry, I don't find it any interesting for me to discuss this, you are just a little bit more intelligent Tovi. You try to make any sense but you fail hard. It's either you really fail to get the point or you don't want to get it because it would blow up your patriotism or whatever else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 14, 2014, 02:16:08 pm
From here it looks more like Ukraine is asking for help from the international community, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 02:35:24 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 02:01:56 pm
Well maybe, but I don't see that those terrorists kill civilians. But I see that some people in Ukraine were killed because they didn't share the opinion of eurointegration. I don't compare Ukraine to Iraq, I made this example because some of ukranian politics think that USA will help them, as you know I think antiterrorist operation began exactly on the next day of visiting mr. Baiden to Ukraine. And the difference between Iraq and Ukraine is that in Ukraine a lot of russians are living. It's just my opinion that this is politic game between Russia and USA and Ukraine is just a victim of this game. USA will demand from new authorities to continue military operations, Russia will continue to support the East.

What is it with u retarded russians and putting USA as the ultimate puppetmaster of everything. I swear, u people are pretty damn close to calling even a rotten potato to be an evil american conspiracy ment to starve the poor and defenceless russians. Not suprised thou. It has been said that majority of the Kremlins politicans are superparanoid, so no wonder the rest population is the same. Ever thought mybe the ukrainians had enough of Russia and wanted to become a real country? Probably not. Pretty sure some day Belarussians are gonna riot too. And not because US, but because they are under dictatorship. But Russia is probably gonna blame other countries, as it always has. Cause admitting their mistakes is something Kremlin almost never does.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 02:53:14 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 02:35:24 pm
What is it with u retarded russians and putting USA as the ultimate puppetmaster of everything. I swear, u people are pretty damn close to calling even a rotten potato to be an evil american conspiracy ment to starve the poor and defenceless russians. Not suprised thou. It has been said that majority of the Kremlins politicans are superparanoid, so no wonder the rest population is the same. Ever thought mybe the ukrainians had enough of Russia and wanted to become a real country? Probably not. Pretty sure some day Belarussians are gonna riot too. And not because US, but because they are under dictatorship. But Russia is probably gonna blame other countries, as it always has. Cause admitting their mistakes is something Kremlin almost never does.
Not of everything but only where it exist. In Belarussia have already been 2 attempts to make a riot in 2006 and 2010, and as Lukashenko said that they were controlled from Kiev and there were about 400 people. This is not what I say that what president of Belarussia said. And if people choose president many times then it is called a dictatorship?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 03:06:47 pm
And u belive Lukashenko? The man who just I think 2 weeks ago stated that he should create serfdom(kinda like slavery) in the country to make sure people wouldnt leave from villages to bigger towns. He himself awknowledges himself as a dictator btw. And he wasnt elected u know. He rigged it bigtime. His political opponents all end up in jail. And yes, that is without a doubt dictatorship.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 14, 2014, 04:01:37 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 03:06:47 pm
And u belive Lukashenko? The man who just I think 2 weeks ago stated that he should create serfdom(kinda like slavery) in the country to make sure people wouldnt leave from villages to bigger towns. He himself awknowledges himself as a dictator btw. And he wasnt elected u know. He rigged it bigtime. His political opponents all end up in jail. And yes, that is without a doubt dictatorship.
lol can u give me link on dad pls! about sefdom XD
btw he also again brought death by impalement
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 14, 2014, 04:08:13 pm

Is that a garbage truck? That's so.. erm.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:22:05 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/06/05/why-belarus-wants-to-bring-serfdom-back/
Quote
Alexander Lukashenko, president of Belarus, does, however. According to a Gazeta.ru article, Lukashenko last week agreed to sign a new decree that would forbid workers on collective farms from leaving to pursue jobs elsewhere.

Lukasenko is a pretty fucked up dude.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:24:53 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 02:35:24 pm
What is it with u retarded russians
(click to show/hide)
Just two similar questions for you about americans and russians (I'm not trying to blame anyone and I ask you to tell me the facts you know on this matter, not your personal or someone else attitude)

1). Can you list all US military campaings since 1945 (year, country, reason)? The same for USSR\Russia

2). Can you tell me locations of all US army bases, missile shields in Eurasia? Also the same for USSR\Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:27:56 pm
Quote from: Christo on June 14, 2014, 04:08:13 pm

Is that a garbage truck? That's so.. erm.

no. it's armored vehicle of russian mercenaries. top secret.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:32:45 pm
Quote from: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:24:53 pm
Just two similar questions for you about americans and russians (I'm not trying to blame anyone and I ask you to tell me the facts you know on this matter, not your personal or someone else attitude)

1). Can you list all US military campaings since 1945 (year, country, reason)? The same for USSR\Russia

2). Can you tell me locations of all US army bases, missile shields in Eurasia? Also the same for USSR\Russia
No i cant and how is this related to anything? Google it yourself.... And the only reason there are US bases and missleshields in Eurasia is because Russia is a very agressive country who doesnt get along with its neibhours. If Russia was a friendlytype, the bases and shields would be pointless wouldnt they. Its Russias own fault NATO has moved so close to their border.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 04:37:37 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:22:05 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/06/05/why-belarus-wants-to-bring-serfdom-back/
Lukasenko is a pretty fucked up dude.
washingtonpost is the same as lifenews
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on June 14, 2014, 04:40:05 pm
Quote
No i cant and how is this related to anything? Google it yourself.... And the only reason there are US bases and missleshields in Eurasia is because Russia is a very agressive country who doesnt get along with its neibhours. If Russia was a friendlytype, the bases and shields would be pointless wouldnt they. Its Russias own fault NATO has moved so close to their border

You're implying that US cares about other people's interests and not just their own? That would make them awesome nation, unlike any other on this planet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:41:54 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:32:45 pm
No i cant and how is this related to anything? Google it yourself....

Well, it's related to what u said about puppermasters and paranoids.
You can't cause you don't want to or you can't cause you don't know?

I ask you to "google it for yourself" next time you want to call anyone "retarded paranoid", k? And if you are clever enough try to use different sources of information except (not only) "washington post", "nu yourk times" etc  (related to everything)


Quote
And the only reason there are US bases and missleshields in Eurasia is because Russia is a very agressive country who doesnt get along with its neibhours. If Russia was a friendlytype, the bases and shields would be pointless wouldnt they. Its Russias own fault NATO has moved so close to their border.

Well
yes
google it if you don't want to sound like a brainwashed dumbass  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 14, 2014, 04:45:43 pm
Quote from: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:41:54 pm
Well
yes
google it if you don't want to sound like a brainwashed dumbass  :lol:

Didn't find much evidence of any western force invading e.g. baltic countries and turning them into anti-russian dictatorships.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on June 14, 2014, 04:47:13 pm
No need, they are already anti-russian thanks to century long Russian politics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 14, 2014, 04:49:38 pm
Quote from: Leshma on June 14, 2014, 04:47:13 pm
No need, they are already anti-russian thanks to century long Russian politics.

What ? How can Russia make enemies ? Russia friendly to everybody, world loves Russia. Russia neighbor many countries all love Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:49:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 04:37:37 pm
washingtonpost is the same as lifenews
Quote from: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:41:54 pm
Well, it's related to what u said about puppermasters and paranoids.
You can't cause you don't want to or you can't cause you don't know?

I ask you to "google it for yourself" next time you want to call anyone "retarded paranoid", k? And if you are clever enough try to use different sources of information except (not only) "washington post", "nu yourk times" etc  (related to everything)


Well
yes
google it if you don't want to sound like a brainwashed dumbass  :lol:

Washington post was not the source, you morons. Get sober for once you russian drunks. It was news that was everywhere. And really, name one other time I linked Times and Washington post. Cause you made it sound like I link em regularly. That was just the first link I noticed. I read it originally in another place. And discrediting someones sources doesnt work that way. Learn 2 internet. Id understand if this news was only in Washington post, as an exclusive. But since it was everywhere....well....you fail.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 05:14:15 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:49:48 pm
you morons
Get sober for once you russian drunks.

Man, keep calm. No need to be that rude  :lol:

Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:49:48 pm
It was news that was everywhere.
Where?  :lol:

I understand that shitwording toward others is much easier and pleasant then googling smth, so I googled it for you with pics, so you don't need to read a lot.
(click to show/hide)

Look at this and tell me once again what do you mean when you say:

Quote
And the only reason there are US bases and missleshields in Eurasia is because Russia is a very agressive country who doesnt get along with its neibhours. If Russia was a friendlytype, the bases and shields would be pointless wouldnt they. Its Russias own fault NATO has moved so close to their border.
or this

Quote
putting USA as the ultimate puppetmaster of everything. I swear, u people are pretty damn close to calling even a rotten potato to be an evil american conspiracy ment to starve the poor and defenceless russians. Not suprised thou. It has been said that majority of the Kremlins politicans are superparanoid
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 05:35:08 pm
Im still not understanding what u are trying to prove here. How is US campaigning everywhere and having a lot of bases related to anything? It doesnt click with anything I posted. I stated that NATO has bases in europe and u confirmed it with your map. gg. Then I stated that russians are overly paranoid. That they stick USA to absolutely everything bad that happens to them. US bases and warcampaigns are very barely related to this at all.

So im still not following what was your point again?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on June 14, 2014, 05:36:04 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Guess, in which hand the candy is :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 14, 2014, 05:37:29 pm
The point is that Kremlin is not ruling over as  large an empire, thus it must fuck up its neighbours out of spite.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on June 14, 2014, 05:41:51 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 04:37:37 pm
washingtonpost is the same as lifenews
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/05/28/n_6186953.shtml
http://www.interfax.ru/world/378376
http://www.mk.ru/politics/2014/05/28/lukashenko-vozrozhdaet-krepostnoe-pravo-vse-polnomochiya-pereydut-v-ruki-organov-vlasti-i-shaltayboltay-uzhe-ne-budet.html
http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/27069721/lukashenko-vozvraschaet-krepostnoe-pravo

All major Rus mass media, no Lifenews crap.

Poor Lukashenko was absent when teachers were telling about ineffectiveness of serfdom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 05:54:08 pm
Quote from: Segd on June 14, 2014, 05:36:04 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Guess, in which hand the candy is :)
In both I think :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 14, 2014, 05:59:28 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 14, 2014, 04:22:05 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/06/05/why-belarus-wants-to-bring-serfdom-back/
Lukasenko is a pretty fucked up dude.
sure it will not change your opinion, but that "full but boring version." https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.belarus.by%2Fru%2Fgovernment%2Fevents%2Fv-belarusi-budet-izdan-dekret-zapreschajuschij-peresazhivat-v-teplye-mesta-provinivshixsja-rukovoditelej_i_0000011078.html&edit-text=

so if short it mostly selfdom for bad managers
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on June 14, 2014, 07:19:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 14, 2014, 05:54:08 pm
In both I think :P
Both are empty, He already ate all that candy..
just look at his happy face :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 14, 2014, 07:40:02 pm
Quote from: Piok on June 14, 2014, 07:19:09 pm
Both are empty, He already ate all that candy..
just look at his happy face :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on June 14, 2014, 11:46:01 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 14, 2014, 07:40:02 pm
(click to show/hide)
Wow!! one of your relatives?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: njames89 on June 15, 2014, 05:51:10 am
I heard reports about tanks crossing into ukraine from russia :/ no bueno
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 15, 2014, 08:58:49 pm
Quote from: njames89 on June 15, 2014, 05:51:10 am
I heard reports about tanks crossing into ukraine from russia :/ no bueno
Ask Vovka, he personally saw them heil-putlering putler in red square, then take some tanks and drive off across russia to friendly cross into another country. Because only in russia  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on June 15, 2014, 10:50:08 pm
Not to sure if its your Russian tanks, but:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27849437
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on June 15, 2014, 11:47:23 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on June 15, 2014, 10:50:08 pm
Not to sure if its your Russian tanks, but:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27849437
T 64bv  cos IR reflector on left side. T72 and T80 should have it on right side.
Used also by Russian but put out of service cos it was too expansive and not much better then more reliable T72.
Still in service in UA probably thanks to pride of Kharkov construction bureau  marvel.
But T72B is considered to be better by Russian and even overshadowing T80.
So T90 is rather T72B than t80 and its ancestor t64.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 16, 2014, 12:15:44 am
Quote from: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:41:54 pm
Well, it's related to what u said about puppermasters and paranoids.
You can't cause you don't want to or you can't cause you don't know?

I ask you to "google it for yourself" next time you want to call anyone "retarded paranoid", k? And if you are clever enough try to use different sources of information except (not only) "washington post", "nu yourk times" etc  (related to everything)


Well
yes
google it if you don't want to sound like a brainwashed dumbass  :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

plenty on both sides
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 16, 2014, 02:43:10 am
Quote from: Zaharist on June 14, 2014, 04:24:53 pm
1). Can you list all US military campaings since 1945 (year, country, reason)? The same for USSR\Russia

Quote from: Beauchamp on June 16, 2014, 12:15:44 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

plenty on both sides

Well according to wikipedia it's 18/46.

However, if we count all of them it's 92/124. Where is your god now?

But your logic and this stupid claim of "but lulolz0rz usa evil did meni war russia did no war russia can do anything usa bad xnxnxn )))" makes no sense.

Also did you see in what conflicts russia/usa were involved? Pointing fingers is so easy, if you are ignorant.

I still don't see how this is even relevant, the constant USA bashing, did you see american soldiers, planes taking Crimea?
Having less wars doesn't justify anything, and it couldn't even come up in your head if you were a rational person... or maybe just using your brain.

I have a wild thought that is funny though: The reason russians and such people come up with this argument is because they are secretly jealous as fuck of their influence, and want to be 1st in the scoreboard. Motherland must have #1 conflict in history!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on June 16, 2014, 03:22:45 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on June 16, 2014, 12:15:44 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
Red Stick Creek
African Slave Traders
Greek Pirates
Kingdom of Hawaii
Righteous Harmony Society
Rogue River people
Caribbean Pirates
(click to show/hide)

Btw, we fought against Crimea 9 times :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 16, 2014, 08:51:29 am
Quote from: Piok on June 15, 2014, 11:47:23 pm
T 64bv  cos IR reflector on left side. T72 and T80 should have it on right side.
Used also by Russian but put out of service cos it was too expansive and not much better then more reliable T72.
Still in service in UA probably thanks to pride of Kharkov construction bureau  marvel.
But T72B is considered to be better by Russian and even overshadowing T80.
So T90 is rather T72B than t80 and its ancestor t64.

Great, so after this lecture - what is the russias top putler-news channels saying about russian tanks driving into Ukraine? Or these pictures be fake conspiracy by evil west? :) Maybe the separatists managed to raid some old storage of tanks in russia and captured them, then proceeding to move on quickly and efficiently to Ukraine, while avoiding cops and army and what not? Or maybe they just bribe their way across the border with all dem dollars coming from... erm... how the fuck are they able to finance their "operations" again? Or is putler giving away guns for free?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on June 16, 2014, 09:45:06 am
Who knows there are no reserve vehicle storage in UA?
But few days earlier UA news speaks about 3 T72 from Russia and show similar pictures as proof. Cos UA army do not use inferior T72.
Now T72 morphed to T64 :?

Probably evil rebels just capture some or maybe it was traitor gift or small transaction 8-)
Maybe checking some UA general Swiss account will bring light where is darkness.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 16, 2014, 09:49:12 am
Quote from: Piok on June 16, 2014, 09:45:06 am
Who knows there are no reserve vehicle storage in UA?
But few days earlier UA news speaks about 3 T72 from Russia and show similar pictures as proof. Cos UA army do not use inferior T72.
Now T72 morphed to T64 :?

Probably evil rebels just capture some or maybe it was traitor gift or small transaction 8-)
Maybe checking some UA general Swiss account will bring light where is darkness.

Sure, because you have to refuse everything and then brag how Ukrainian media is telling bullshit to Ukrainian zombies while Russian media only tells you crystal-clear truth. Pathetic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 16, 2014, 11:31:42 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 13, 2014, 01:18:13 pm
Photoes (18+)
(click to show/hide)


russian spec ops burning infected potato crop
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 16, 2014, 11:33:56 am
Quote from: Piok on June 16, 2014, 09:45:06 am
Who knows there are no reserve vehicle storage in UA?
But few days earlier UA news speaks about 3 T72 from Russia and show similar pictures as proof. Cos UA army do not use inferior T72.
Now T72 morphed to T64 :?

Probably evil rebels just capture some or maybe it was traitor gift or small transaction 8-)
Maybe checking some UA general Swiss account will bring light where is darkness.
So in your oppinion dem rebels decided that the proper camo, which is on Ukr tanks, is BS, took some green spray paints and just went at it? Incidentally - the same green spray paint present on russian tanks, which are not being used anymore by russian army?

Reserve storage... don't you think, that BOTH sides would have taken the contents of those "storages" first thing after conflict started? Fucking separatists started raiding left and right and only NOW they find hidden storage with 3 tanks? For pitty's sake - they started robbing mining installations for explosives, and they did not find fucking military base with TANKS in it? Are you fucking kidding me?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 16, 2014, 12:23:15 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 16, 2014, 11:31:42 am

russian spec ops burning infected potato crop

You know what's funny, half of Russian commentaries there actually believe that these are Ukrainians shooting  :rolleyes: Zombies are such zombies
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on June 16, 2014, 12:23:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 16, 2014, 11:33:56 am
So in your oppinion dem rebels decided that the proper camo, which is on Ukr tanks, is BS, took some green spray paints and just went at it? Incidentally - the same green spray paint present on russian tanks, which are not being used anymore by russian army?

Reserve storage... don't you think, that BOTH sides would have taken the contents of those "storages" first thing after conflict started? Fucking separatists started raiding left and right and only NOW they find hidden storage with 3 tanks? For pitty's sake - they started robbing mining installations for explosives, and they did not find fucking military base with TANKS in it? Are you fucking kidding me?
You think that every tank in reserve was repainted after falling of Soviet union? Cos this cammo look pretty Soviet to me.
They are lucky that their tanks are not white with UN markings as some unidentified Mi24.
Maybe this are few tanks put together from tank graveyards. Lots of spare parts around...
But my bet is  for crew selling them for some Coin and then disappearing like fog.

What next? Flankers for rebels in Russian display team cammo :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 16, 2014, 12:49:22 pm
Quote from: Piok on June 16, 2014, 12:23:35 pm
You think that every tank in reserve was repainted after falling of Soviet union?

Yes, they were most likely. Military transport is getting repainted once in each 5-10 years (in rare cases up to 20 years, but not more because even after 10 years it looks like shit already). You would be surprised but most of the time they just use those paints that they have or even buy them in the salary  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 16, 2014, 03:43:34 pm
Lets play  a game

You: Terrorist/separatist/muslim student/agent of russian GRU
You have: ta!da! GRAD multiple rocket launcher Х2 with large area of ​​destruction with 24km range
Enemy have:
 - base in airport with from 500 up to 2000 garrison (1)
 - airport with several SU-24 (2)
 - base with artellery who shoot ur position every day (3)
 - block post 5x5 meter with 5-15 man (4)

You will do:
- stoot in target 1-3 (1) from ur position
- snake in enemy territory (2xGRAD 1 APC 2 truck  KAMAZ) like 50-100 km, closer to target (10km if check the map) and shoot in block post from bouth MRL with all 40 missle!! die bitches burn! (2)

 let's continue our paranoia...
say objective was not a mistake...
http://vk.com/perspektiva1998
 Founders LLC "Perspective" Antipenko VV, Borisov AM, Vasilenko YN,
who is dat?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D1%EF%E8%F1%EE%EA_%E4%E5%EF%F3%F2%E0%F2%EE%E2_%C4%EE%ED%E5%F6%EA%EE%E3%EE_%EE%E1%EB%E0%F1%F2%ED%EE%E3%EE_%F1%EE%E2%E5%F2%E0_6_%F1%EE%E7%FB%E2%E0
(click to show/hide)
Antipenko Vladimir District Party of Regions Director of  Limited Liability Company "Perspective" Permanent Commission on Agrarian Policy




Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 16, 2014, 03:57:56 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 16, 2014, 12:23:15 pm
You know what's funny, half of Russian commentaries there actually believe that these are Ukrainians shooting  :rolleyes: Zombies are such zombies

Not suprised thou. Russian media being damn close to North Koreaish, its suprising they even get half of the worlds events right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 16, 2014, 08:15:54 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 16, 2014, 03:43:34 pm
Lets play  a game

You: Terrorist/separatist/muslim student/agent of russian GRU
You have: ta!da! GRAD multiple rocket launcher Х2 with large area of ​​destruction with 24km range
Enemy have:
 - base in airport with from 500 up to 2000 garrison (1)
 - airport with several SU-24 (2)
 - base with artellery who shoot ur position every day (3)
 - block post 5x5 meter with 5-15 man (4)

You will do:
- stoot in target 1-3 (1) from ur position
- snake in enemy territory (2xGRAD 1 APC 2 truck  KAMAZ) like 50-100 km, closer to target (10km if check the map) and shoot in block post from bouth MRL with all 40 missle!! die bitches burn! (2)

 let's continue our paranoia...
say objective was not a mistake...
http://vk.com/perspektiva1998
 Founders LLC "Perspective" Antipenko VV, Borisov AM, Vasilenko YN,
who is dat?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D1%EF%E8%F1%EE%EA_%E4%E5%EF%F3%F2%E0%F2%EE%E2_%C4%EE%ED%E5%F6%EA%EE%E3%EE_%EE%E1%EB%E0%F1%F2%ED%EE%E3%EE_%F1%EE%E2%E5%F2%E0_6_%F1%EE%E7%FB%E2%E0
(click to show/hide)
Antipenko Vladimir District Party of Regions Director of  Limited Liability Company "Perspective" Permanent Commission on Agrarian Policy

As to #1 - ONLY IN RUSSIA you do not expect artilery shelling on stationary and known targets and not have fucking posts/scouting missions around to prevent this. Given, that you know enemy has GRAD - 25km seems reasonable radius? Also, for the record - they actually managed to shoot a plane during the landing, so its not like they are NOT targeting the airport. But setting up grads might be more, than hit-and-run tactics allow them. I.e. you fire your missiles and then before you pack your shit - enemy BTR's are on your ass and choppers fucking ground around you. So "good target" Vs "bad target" is a stupid oversimplification.
As to #2 - yeah... thats probably the same as #1, no? Same perimeter control expected IMO.
As to #3 - because those bases are obvious to everyone, easy to find and target... yeah... NOT.
As to #4 - basically - you are surounded, want to get out of the siege... blowing up one chain sounds like a good plan. ALSO - this is fucking demoralizing. If you "burn bitches" one outpost - the next might run after first (and maybe single) explosion. And this is what you need, if you want to break out of the siege...

And given the caliber of local gangsters who took over the "control" in those parts - settling score in this manner would be... amm... a bit russian style, but possible :)

So yeah Vovka, lets play these games. They are good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on June 17, 2014, 01:51:31 am
Quote from: Tibe on June 16, 2014, 03:57:56 pm
Not suprised thou. Russian media being damn close to North Koreaish, its suprising they even get half of the worlds events right.

You read the AMA of the North Korean defector?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 17, 2014, 03:12:41 pm
According to Valerij Bolotov - actual Lithuanian sniper gurl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tights) was captured in Luhansk! If I was putler - I would be proud of them  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 20, 2014, 07:25:24 pm
Found an interesting article which I believe would reflect my feelings, if I was a russian...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/no-illusions-left-im-leaving-russia/502173.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on June 21, 2014, 02:52:01 pm
Russia To Replace AMD/Intel CPUs With 64-bit ARM Hardware (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTcyNjU)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2014, 03:22:38 pm
Quote from: Leshma on June 21, 2014, 02:52:01 pm
Russia To Replace AMD/Intel CPUs With 64-bit ARM Hardware (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTcyNjU)

Quote
For strict security enthusiasts believing AMD and Intel have been compromised by the NSA or other US agencies, it's time to celebrate.

They might have a point, although I'm not sure how a CPU could be compromised in a non-obvious way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 21, 2014, 03:26:05 pm
Being compromised by FSB is obviously much better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 21, 2014, 03:54:57 pm
Quote from: Leshma on June 21, 2014, 02:52:01 pm
Russia To Replace AMD/Intel CPUs With 64-bit ARM Hardware (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTcyNjU)

Great. Not only ping issues, and the language barrier. As if those weren't enough, they will have potato PC installed.  :mrgreen:

What's next?

NVICYKA : The way it's not meant to be played?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on June 21, 2014, 04:11:51 pm
Fuck off. I tried to get this shit gay thread to 2nd page so you retards wouldn't discuss this crap for 300+ pages like retards with arguments that won't sway the other side anyhow, but u fuckers above ruined it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2014, 06:31:49 pm
GTFO consolephag
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 21, 2014, 06:55:33 pm
For Ukrainian and french speakers :


German subtitles :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 22, 2014, 12:41:53 am
Quote from: Tovi on June 21, 2014, 06:55:33 pm
(click to show/hide)
Appart from posting random interviews of random reporters - you should say what mean by that and what conclusion (if any) you would be willing to make of it.

An interresting recurring theme: "I can only speak about what I saw..." and then proceeds to generalize, as if he knows the "average-jack" of the separatists forces/general-average situation. Funny that  :rolleyes: A proper representative of the yellow press  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 22, 2014, 09:43:49 pm
My comments are intersting you now ?  :) I let you make your own opinion.

But this seems similar to what's happening here. Someone neutral gives informations about insurgents and pro-Kiev says : "Russian propaganda/manipulation ! blabla"
But Russia have absolutly no interest to any intervention in Ukraine. This country is on bankrupty and no one want to pay for them.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 22, 2014, 10:08:04 pm
Someone neutral DID give "informations". There was a LIVE interview with some local union leader a few weeks ago for some russian news thing. He clearly stated the local population does not support the insurgents and that convois with weapons and tanks are crossing the border from Russia to Ukraine. The interviewer and the shows host got extremely upset and frightened and tried instantly to discredit the guy.

Man I am telling you. Russia plays the propagandawar exactly the same way as North-Korea does. Making extremely plausible shit up on the fly. No suprise everybody is sceptical. Kinda wierd that you arent. No im serius tovi. Why arent u sceptical?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 22, 2014, 10:46:12 pm
Because Putin is more sympathetic than Obama, maybe.

I like this : http://www.infowars.com/top-u-s-diplomat-russia-has-betrayed-the-new-world-order/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 23, 2014, 08:13:24 am
Quote from: Tovi on June 22, 2014, 10:46:12 pm
Because Putin is more sympathetic than Obama, maybe.

I like this : http://www.infowars.com/top-u-s-diplomat-russia-has-betrayed-the-new-world-order/
Putin is more..... WHAT? I mean... I would find the facepalm picture, but... I .... well... its not even fucking close enough to relay my surprise. :|

Is this some kind of "I need macho as head of state otherwise I feel with as if with no balls" sentiment or what? How a sane person can support an ass who annexes part of FRIENDLY SLAV country and then proceeds to wage propaganda war + supporting separatism can even be CONSIDERED as worthy of sympathies - I have no friggin clue... :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 23, 2014, 09:23:00 am
Quote from: Tovi on June 22, 2014, 10:46:12 pm
Because Putin is more sympathetic than Obama, maybe.

Obama isnt in charge of anything. The West does not run on dictatorship, unlike Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 23, 2014, 10:50:37 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 23, 2014, 09:23:00 am
Obama isnt in charge of anything. The West does not run on dictatorship, unlike Russia.

+1, Obama has no real power. He's just here to play the "Good Cop" role on TV. He can make war anywhere in the world and have his Peace Nobel Prize in the pocket (If you have some time, check informations about how the Nobel institution really works).
 Putin is more like a russian Degaulle. He's not perfect but strong enough to resist to the pressure. Few politicians can do this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 24, 2014, 12:37:21 pm
Ho noes the truth about Tovi hath been revealed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 24, 2014, 01:37:14 pm
I think he's just trolling.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 24, 2014, 02:47:15 pm
French trolling about De Gaulle is... unlikely
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 24, 2014, 08:07:09 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 24, 2014, 02:47:15 pm
French trolling about De Gaulle is... unlikely

Yep, no trolling about Joan of Arc, Napoleon or De Gaulle is allowed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 24, 2014, 08:54:08 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 23, 2014, 10:50:37 pm
Putin is more like a russian Degaulle. He's not perfect but strong enough to resist to the pressure. Few politicians can do this.
So what u are techincally saying that what Putin is doing/has done sofar is working and you support dictatorship? And strong enough to resist the pressure of what? The pressure of people trying to tell him not to occupy, destabilize, blackmail and threaten countries significantly weaker than theirs? I for one am quite happy that only a few politicians can do this. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 25, 2014, 12:31:13 am
Russia is a dictatorship ??  :shock: There is not even death penalty. A good dictatorship must have death penalty.  And a good dictatorship try to spy everybody (in the world, if possible). In fact, a good dictatorship can shot down anyone, without any trial or proof, drop the body into the see and say "Justice is done"  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 25, 2014, 12:45:07 am
TIL you can't have a dictatorship without a legal death penalty. What was the last time someone got killed after a political trial in the US, again ? Don't worry in Russia the FSB doesn't need a trial to make you disappear.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on June 25, 2014, 12:47:58 am
Russia still is not a dictatorship, stricto sensu.

Most arguments used to determine it is, in fact, could be used to determine that all democracy are dictatorship, because even if elected democratically, power separated and strictly controlled, people placed in charge have the power of dictators, in their zone of influence, during their mandate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 25, 2014, 06:40:39 am
Jup, u learn a lot of new things from Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 25, 2014, 07:40:24 am
In russia dictator dont need a legal death penalty, fbr just poison vodka ((

But to be honest iam fully support Putin's command like Shoigu, Churkin, Lavrov.
In Russia still too much bribery, but it is not possible to change it in two or three years cos it was common shit for like 15 years. We often work with government officials from different towns commitets, and for the last five years they strongly pressed. So now they afraid of taking bribes ((

and I would like to be able to remove politicians from office who offering: create  Russian internet Cheburashka, fine / forced to serve in the army of women who did not give birth after 25,

but even now it much better here than in democratic Ukrain  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on June 25, 2014, 10:25:43 am
Putin is not a dictator since he came to power after the elections. And he did it 3 times (even 4, if his muppet Mevdedev elections counts too). I'd say he is conservative and authoritarian personality. But not a dictator like Нitler, Stalin, Mao, Kaddafi, Saddam or leaders of North Korea were. Here is Russia we have all modern basic freedoms and rights, various opposition forces, and pro-market liberals, who have key posts in the economic block. Anyways our overall political system is awful. We just have no real alternative, and even if you would chose between Putin, Zyuganov, Mironov, Zhirinovsky and some freaks and nonamers every 4 years, like we do - you would also chose Putin in the end, or would just shoot yourself from despondency. I could create a huge wall of text to explain how things stand with the policy in our country, but it most succinctly expressed in the word "shit". Honestly I don't think that the situation in so-called "democratic" countries is far better, when I see leaders like Francois Holland.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 25, 2014, 10:30:23 am
In democratic countries, the leader tends to be less important than the legislative assembly, even though the leader gets all the media attention.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on June 25, 2014, 11:07:35 am
Quote from: Kafein on June 25, 2014, 10:30:23 am
In democratic countries, the leader tends to be less important than the legislative assembly, even though the leader gets all the media attention.
Yes, but please keep in mind that here in Russia our legislative authorities is joke. If somehow they would have a real power today, they would have turn our lives in hell in pursuit of populism and support of the electorate. Our difference is that your political system has evolved over the centuries. It come to today's form as a result of natural changes, different improvements and influences. While our system was ruined first time in 1917, and went down in a completely different way after that. And then in late 80s-early 90s our "alternative" system was broken again and replaced with the imitation of the democratic system. It was an imitation not because it was intention to give people a false visibility of freedom and democracy just to fool them somehow, no. Our leaders of 90's were believed in the ideals of the freedom and democracy as well as common people were, but since no one had any idea of what REAL, NATURAL democracy is - so the whole our democracy has become just a decoration, replica, imitation. So now we are living a little more than 20 years with our "democratic" system - and there's no surprise that our democracy is complete bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 25, 2014, 03:25:56 pm
Quote from: Porthos on June 25, 2014, 11:07:35 am
Yes, but please keep in mind that here in Russia our legislative authorities is joke. If somehow they would have a real power today, they would have turn our lives in hell in pursuit of populism and support of the electorate. Our difference is that your political system has evolved over the centuries. It come to today's form as a result of natural changes, different improvements and influences. While our system was ruined first time in 1917, and went down in a completely different way after that. And then in late 80s-early 90s our "alternative" system was broken again and replaced with the imitation of the democratic system. It was an imitation not because it was intention to give people a false visibility of freedom and democracy just to fool them somehow, no. Our leaders of 90's were believed in the ideals of the freedom and democracy as well as common people were, but since no one had any idea of what REAL, NATURAL democracy is - so the whole our democracy has become just a decoration, replica, imitation. So now we are living a little more than 20 years with our "democratic" system - and there's no surprise that our democracy is complete bullshit.
Quite typical. So what you are basically saying "we need a strong hand to rule us, because we are sheep and too much corruption". You, your neighbor and your friend is where corruption AND where tolerance for corruption begins. It is there, where the voice asking for change and decency of government starts (and ends in a bottle of vodka most likely). And trying to find excuses in this case is like trying to wash your muddy ex-white jacked in a puddle.

Funny thing is - when your brother slav nation TRIES to change something - you suddenly approve by 80% of annexing part of their country and dragging them back to the mud where you are stuck. Way to go... Mind you - I don't say Ukraine succeeded or anything just yet, but even attempting this is positive action, while there is a bunch of sheep over the border, who "need a strong ruler who is NOT a dictator to help them gradually learn to be a democracy..."</irony>.

That is cheap and would be funny, if it wasn't sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: sF_Guardian on June 25, 2014, 03:40:02 pm
Quote from: Porthos on June 25, 2014, 11:07:35 am
Yes, but please keep in mind that here in Russia our legislative authorities is joke. If somehow they would have a real power today, they would have turn our lives in hell in pursuit of populism and support of the electorate. Our difference is that your political system has evolved over the centuries. It come to today's form as a result of natural changes, different improvements and influences. While our system was ruined first time in 1917, and went down in a completely different way after that. And then in late 80s-early 90s our "alternative" system was broken again and replaced with the imitation of the democratic system. It was an imitation not because it was intention to give people a false visibility of freedom and democracy just to fool them somehow, no. Our leaders of 90's were believed in the ideals of the freedom and democracy as well as common people were, but since no one had any idea of what REAL, NATURAL democracy is - so the whole our democracy has become just a decoration, replica, imitation. So now we are living a little more than 20 years with our "democratic" system - and there's no surprise that our democracy is complete bullshit.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but demacracy isn't natural at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on June 25, 2014, 03:43:10 pm
[H]ello !

FrogLoveHere !

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Bye !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 25, 2014, 03:48:10 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 25, 2014, 07:40:24 am
In russia dictator dont need a legal death penalty, fbr just poison vodka ((
But to be honest iam fully support Putin's command like Shoigu, Churkin, Lavrov.
In Russia still too much bribery, but it is not possible to change it in two or three years cos it was common shit for like 15 years. We often work with government officials from different towns commitets, and for the last five years they strongly pressed. So now they afraid of taking bribes ((
and I would like to be able to remove politicians from office who offering: create  Russian internet Cheburashka, fine / forced to serve in the army of women who did not give birth after 25,
but even now it much better here than in democratic Ukrain  :twisted:

I suppose I do get it. It is hard to get fully democratic in Russia, I can somewhat respect that. But keep that stuff in your country. What I do not understand however is why do shitheads like Lavrov and Putin dick their neibhours so much? Why is their foreign policy so damn hostile towards countries that would probably never pose a threat to them anyway? I dont get why is it so neccessary for them to be so damn agressive. This "be nice to russians outside of Russia or we will invade your ass" statement Putin placed a few days ago is completely idiotic. If anything it makes life for russians in other countries even harder. NATO didnt make Russia its enemy, Russia made it its enemy. Pretty sure most eastern-EUs dont even want to be in nato, but its really the only way to make sure that they dont get invaded by Russia.

I cant really say much for the domestic policy during Putins rule, since yea, im not russian so I dont know about it, but his foreign policy is complete shit. I think really, last time russians where this unpopular, USSR still exsisted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 25, 2014, 08:58:10 pm
A democratic leader need a strong mind, not a strong police force.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 25, 2014, 09:49:22 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 25, 2014, 08:58:10 pm
A democratic leader need a strong mind, not a strong police force.
And putler is which exactly?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 25, 2014, 10:09:37 pm
About genocide occuring in Ukraine (VO+ french ) :


The Kiev propaganda (second part) is really disgusting. It sounds like Vichy in 1944.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 25, 2014, 10:59:06 pm
Quote from: Tovi on June 25, 2014, 10:09:37 pm
About genocide occuring in Ukraine (VO+ french ) :
The Kiev propaganda (second part) is really disgusting. It sounds like Vichy in 1944.
i think its not a kiev prapoganda , just reporter is  a stupid chick. And there is no refugees, it is a natural migration of workers, according to ua media
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 25, 2014, 11:11:45 pm
Does someone could translate this ?




We know how this shit ends :


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Porthos on June 26, 2014, 04:53:21 am
Quote from: Kuujis on June 25, 2014, 03:25:56 pm
So what you are basically saying "we need a strong hand to rule us, because we are sheep and too much corruption".
Well, I don't know where from you have got that thing, I can't find in my text anything connected with corruption, sheep or the will for strong hand. In my text I only tried to explain why I think our political system came to the current current crappy condition. And also why our legislative assembly is joke. It is joke 'cos our legislators is bunch of morons, whose suggestions are nothing but an over-populistic bullshit. And because they all are represent the same four parties (it would be appropriate to call them "fractions of shit" instead of "parties").
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: sF_Guardian on June 25, 2014, 03:40:02 pm
I'm sorry to disappoint you but demacracy isn't natural at all.
I don't quite understand what's your point, but anyway I was speaking about the WAY of how democracy appeared in Russia. It's appeared in non natural way. I remember I was reading the memoirs of some members of "The Congress of people's deputies of Russia". And they were mentioned that none of them had any idea of what they should actually do. So most of their "congresses" were more like shit talk about anything but nothing in the end. And that's even funny 'cos at the same time it was the period in our history when "The Supreme Soviet of Russia" (which was the part of "The Congress of people's deputies of Russia") somehow was the last actually weighty legislative organ. But then our "grand democrat" Yeltzin just came and dispersed them with the tanks:
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Since then we have only one real power in our country - presidential power.

And as for Ukraine, I think that Putin is became a hostage situation. I mean, if you imagine for a second that tomorrow Putin will sign a decree, that the Russian armed forces must came to the aid of the Ukrainian armed forces and then they together will fight against the Donetsk and Lugans People's Republic... Then Putin would be found killed within five minutes after this decree. Because people here in Russia literally asking him to defend DNR and LNR rebels. And even now, when he is trying to demonstrate that he is not supporting them, some "patriots" already accuse him of "cowardice". So if now he will go against his own propaganda - people here in Russia will hate him with the passion. And the second thing - he obviously would be glad to destabilize Ukraine, because if Ukraine will succeed, and their life will be better than life in Russia, then, you know, his days as the president will end once and forever. He would be rather glad to hear something like this:
Quote from: Vovka on June 25, 2014, 07:40:24 am
In Russia still too much bribery...but even now it much better here than in democratic Ukrain  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 26, 2014, 08:58:43 am
Quote from: Porthos on June 26, 2014, 04:53:21 am
(click to show/hide)
Well written, even if not a lot of new.

"Now tell me, who would you choose?" - NONE. IF every available choice sucks - then there surely is a vacuum, which could be filled. Yet - you can't fill it, because you have a strong leader, who controls the media (and thus - the buckets of shit, that get spilled on everyone), who controls the police/special services (and thus - everyone, to whom the shit does not stick - gets a chance at a legendary "tyshina" prisons, where guys suffering from diabetes don't get insulin and noone gets prosecuted for that). So tell me - how do you call a populace, who are ok with such state of things? I call them sheep. There was a bunch of similar sheep in Ukraine, who could not suffer any longer. Now your putler and his media call them fasczzscists and banderoses and what not. And 80% of aforementioned sheep support that. So tell me - what better name, than sheep befit such a populace?

"Because people here in Russia literally asking him to defend DNR and LNR rebels" - people are made to believe, that there is someone to be defended agains someone. Which was bullshit, until putler and his media started stirring up a whole bunch of crap in Ukraine. Starting with maidan, continuing with Crimea, and then inciting AND supporting separatist bullshit in eastern Ukraine. If he was mistaken about Ukraine - why not allow people to elect another president after his term ends?

The point I want to make, and I will sound like a broken audio here, its YOUR FUCKING WILLINGNESS to say NO to this bullshit, but you do not. If you consider current treatment of Ukraine by russia a friendly one, which is what putler is declarating, then I would rather have russia as enemy and would know that openly. 

Oh, ant @Tovi - could you please look for those press releases by russian officials citing hundreds of thousands crossing into russia as refugees? That would surely help bolstering your POV. Because majority of refugees up until serious shit hit eastern Ukraine were the Tatars from Crimea, where they were "reintegrated" (or what was that official word used?). You should quit putlers media, its bad for your brain.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 26, 2014, 10:52:58 am
(click to show/hide)
Well written and informative, thanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on June 26, 2014, 02:31:02 pm
Very good post Porthos, thanks!

The media element is always interesting. Also from western perspective. Way I see it it is a mostly a huge flock of sheep that is hard to turn around, and the political leadership can only makes moves inside their current perspective. This makes it so actual decisions takes a long time, because leaders must first turn and prepare the media, before they can implement changes.

To take a recent example:

In i.ex Syria, I'm pretty sure US intelligence have known for a very long time that the Rebels are now mostly crazy jihadists, and it would be better to support Assad. Problem is that they had already painted him black, and to turn the whole chemical weapons thing required a massive campaign and lots of confusion among US media.. "What are we supposed to think now??"

Same in Russia. The (Russian)media becomes involved to such a degree, that even if Putin don't think it's worth it to annex Donetsk, he will have to fight his own propaganda machine first.

Atm though, I think the Russian strategy is 2 sided. Time is on Putin's side, Ukraine is being punished for trying to leave the family, and Putin is intending to drain as much resources as possible from them. He wants to have Ukraine in a desperate position before talking/normalizing relations. IF the rebels would be more successful, he can also consider eventually annexing Donetsk, probably on the pretext of protecting civilians. Anyway, now he just gives them weapons and probably lots black ops+mercenaries..

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 28, 2014, 12:44:13 am
Quote from: Porthos on June 26, 2014, 04:53:21 am
Well, I don't know where from you have got that thing, I can't find in my text anything connected with corruption, sheep or the will for strong hand. In my text I only tried to explain why I think our political system came to the current current crappy condition. And also why our legislative assembly is joke. It is joke 'cos our legislators is bunch of morons, whose suggestions are nothing but an over-populistic bullshit. And because they all are represent the same four parties (it would be appropriate to call them "fractions of shit" instead of "parties").
(click to show/hide)
I don't quite understand what's your point, but anyway I was speaking about the WAY of how democracy appeared in Russia. It's appeared in non natural way. I remember I was reading the memoirs of some members of "The Congress of people's deputies of Russia". And they were mentioned that none of them had any idea of what they should actually do. So most of their "congresses" were more like shit talk about anything but nothing in the end. And that's even funny 'cos at the same time it was the period in our history when "The Supreme Soviet of Russia" (which was the part of "The Congress of people's deputies of Russia") somehow was the last actually weighty legislative organ. But then our "grand democrat" Yeltzin just came and dispersed them with the tanks:
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Since then we have only one real power in our country - presidential power.

And as for Ukraine, I think that Putin is became a hostage situation. I mean, if you imagine for a second that tomorrow Putin will sign a decree, that the Russian armed forces must came to the aid of the Ukrainian armed forces and then they together will fight against the Donetsk and Lugans People's Republic... Then Putin would be found killed within five minutes after this decree. Because people here in Russia literally asking him to defend DNR and LNR rebels. And even now, when he is trying to demonstrate that he is not supporting them, some "patriots" already accuse him of "cowardice". So if now he will go against his own propaganda - people here in Russia will hate him with the passion. And the second thing - he obviously would be glad to destabilize Ukraine, because if Ukraine will succeed, and their life will be better than life in Russia, then, you know, his days as the president will end once and forever. He would be rather glad to hear something like this:

Finally some deep thoughts, here's a +. Thanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on June 28, 2014, 09:03:45 am
Quote from: Porthos on June 26, 2014, 04:53:21 am
Our pro-western oriented movements are extremely unpopular and marginalized at the current time. People hate them

So, I'm personally don't blame Putin, even though I'm personally dislike him in various aspects. I just realize that I live in the country where the pro-western forces not in favor.

people here in Russia literally asking him to defend DNR and LNR rebels.

So all in all noone is to "blame" for current direction in russian policy but russian people  :wink: not so surprising after reading opinions of ivani4 and some other folks  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 28, 2014, 08:04:00 pm
Quote from: Falka on June 28, 2014, 09:03:45 am
So all in all noone is to "blame" for current direction in russian policy but russian people  :wink: not so surprising after reading opinions of ivani4 and some other folks  :P

blame the Crusaders, the French and Germans, we still can not forgive them their campaigns, that's why we do not like Europeans   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on June 28, 2014, 08:13:26 pm
I nominate this thread for most retarded and most stupid thread of all time in CRPG forum's history.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 28, 2014, 08:16:39 pm
Oh look it's Berenger writing words again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thryn on June 28, 2014, 10:10:14 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on June 28, 2014, 08:13:26 pm
I nominate this thread for most retarded and most stupid thread of all time in CRPG forum's history.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on June 28, 2014, 10:27:42 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 28, 2014, 08:16:39 pm
Oh look it's Berenger writing words again

Oh look it's Kafein again who thinks his opinions about a war that's not even about his own country matters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 29, 2014, 12:39:06 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on June 29, 2014, 06:18:20 am
Quote from: Thomek on June 26, 2014, 02:31:02 pm
Very good post Porthos, thanks!

The media element is always interesting. Also from western perspective. Way I see it it is a mostly a huge flock of sheep that is hard to turn around, and the political leadership can only makes moves inside their current perspective. This makes it so actual decisions takes a long time, because leaders must first turn and prepare the media, before they can implement changes.

To take a recent example:

In i.ex Syria, I'm pretty sure US intelligence have known for a very long time that the Rebels are now mostly crazy jihadists, and it would be better to support Assad. Problem is that they had already painted him black, and to turn the whole chemical weapons thing required a massive campaign and lots of confusion among US media.. "What are we supposed to think now??"

Same in Russia. The (Russian)media becomes involved to such a degree, that even if Putin don't think it's worth it to annex Donetsk, he will have to fight his own propaganda machine first.

Atm though, I think the Russian strategy is 2 sided. Time is on Putin's side, Ukraine is being punished for trying to leave the family, and Putin is intending to drain as much resources as possible from them. He wants to have Ukraine in a desperate position before talking/normalizing relations. IF the rebels would be more successful, he can also consider eventually annexing Donetsk, probably on the pretext of protecting civilians. Anyway, now he just gives them weapons and probably lots black ops+mercenaries..

The only problem with your analysis is that Obama and the US government don't control the media.  Putler controls his media.  He doesn't have to fight any propaganda machine.  He just tells them what to say.  The only danger for Putler is if the living conditions in Russia deteriorate too much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on June 29, 2014, 08:32:19 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on June 29, 2014, 06:18:20 am
The only problem with your analysis is that Obama and the US government don't control the media. ...

I would not use the word control, but they have great influence on the media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on June 29, 2014, 08:48:52 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on June 29, 2014, 06:18:20 am
He just tells them what to say.
Actually not, he just sends them an e-mail. Talking with every media about what they should say could get very tiresome really quick.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 29, 2014, 09:26:18 am
Quote from: Mala on June 29, 2014, 08:32:19 am
I would not use the word control, but they have great influence on the media.

Of course they do. That is why whole bunch of leaked secret US materials were published on that very media. That's only logical... see?

P.S. Even if the above looks like a denial, I DO believe, that there is too much ties between media and government in the US, however - taking a wider view and encompassing whole "western" world - there are too many competing POV's on countries level, which translates into even more on media level. This competition is what I actually trust. I can almost vouch, that there will always be a german/french news outled, which will want to fuck up US as much as possible and in this strife, after consuming samples from multiple parties - once can make up his mind with so-so assurances. Whereas - comparing this situation with putlers russian media is not even close to being fair.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on June 29, 2014, 06:22:00 pm
Quote from: Mala on June 29, 2014, 08:32:19 am
I would not use the word control, but they have great influence on the media.

The only influence the government has on the media in the US is if the editors are like minded with the politicians.  Ie, liberal press figures will support liberal government policies and likewise for conservative press (fewer in number) and conservative administrations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 30, 2014, 03:00:34 am
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnk.org.ua%2Fukraina%2F87836-ukrainskie-pogranichniki-poluchili-novyy-obrazets-bronetekhniki&edit-text=

lol if true  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 30, 2014, 11:56:11 am
Errr, that looks like a WW1 museum piece?

(by which i mean it probably is)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on June 30, 2014, 07:05:19 pm
The video :


The punition :


Europe Uber Alles guys !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 01, 2014, 01:23:51 am
Quote from: Tovi on June 30, 2014, 07:05:19 pm
The video :


The punition :


Europe Uber Alles guys !

Tovi, just curious? Who actually makes these videos and why do you keep posting videos from a channel with 100 subscribers?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 01, 2014, 01:42:23 am
The first video is a compilation made by a french wich contain some videos made (or at least posted on youtube) by the young man in the second one (Vlad Streamer).
The guys may habe been identified : https://twitter.com/Pravdiva_pravda/status/482940950189445120
Pavel Kirilenko (Svoboda deputy) and Andrey Dzindzia (activist)


You dare to ask me why so few people gives a fuck about what really happening in Ukraine or elsewhere ? Probably because football is more fun to watch and easier to understand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 01, 2014, 02:25:10 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 01, 2014, 01:23:51 am
Tovi, just curious? Who actually makes these videos and why do you keep posting videos from a channel with 100 subscribers?
and? RT have 1 300 000  subscribers....  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 01, 2014, 09:28:01 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 01, 2014, 01:42:23 am
The first video is a compilation made by a french wich contain some videos made (or at least posted on youtube) by the young man in the second one (Vlad Streamer).
The guys may habe been identified : https://twitter.com/Pravdiva_pravda/status/482940950189445120
Pavel Kirilenko (Svoboda deputy) and Andrey Dzindzia (activist)


You dare to ask me why so few people gives a fuck about what really happening in Ukraine or elsewhere ? Probably because football is more fun to watch and easier to understand.

Ok Tovi, so what really is happening in Ukraine? I see a bunch of brainwashed separatists urged by putlers russian media and supported by russia figting against their government, because they believe they are natszczsi or whatever the reason. I see this as a repetition of what russia did in Georgia and Moldova. I name the cause why russia is doing this: wishes by these three countries to move west, instead of staying with the fucked up neighbor that is russia + the only way to hold together a crumblig country is finding an external enemy.

Fun coincidence - Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine signed a treaty of association with the EU. An awesome coincidence, that all of them have fucking russian army occupying parts of their respective countries...

What do you see?

Also - how would you react to a fucking teenager lacking only pimples spouting bullshit? That guy had ZERO fucking beating marks... I would call this mild treatment, especially given the circumstances. Also - for the record - I do not condone violence, but I can understand the black guy all to well. This is what you get, when you marginalize and antagonize a "friendly slav country". What would you expect?

And stop fucking posting obscure videos without saying what you want to say. It's boring.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 01, 2014, 09:40:13 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 01, 2014, 01:42:23 am
You dare to ask me why so few people gives a fuck about what really happening in Ukraine or elsewhere ? Probably because football is more fun to watch and easier to understand.
What makes you so sure you know so well what is really happening in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 01, 2014, 11:14:40 am
Quote from: Tibe on July 01, 2014, 09:40:13 am
What makes you so sure you know so well what is really happening in Ukraine?
He has the insight through reading all the important news sites contrary to us who only read the mainstream. Not to mention his vastly superior intelligence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 12:39:33 am
Just wondering :  how EU can sign a treaty with a country suffering a civil war ? And a country suspected to perpetrate ethnic cleansing.
I don't know what mainstream medias says about Ukraine because actually they just tell nothing but football... How can you get any information this way ???

I see ukrainian people who really fear the new power at Kiev. And I can recognize a fascist militia when I see one. Also the hand of the West.
When I see your agressivity and the faith in your medias I can understand the fear of these people.

What's your argument exacty ? "These guys are brainwashed. Let's bomb their cities and kill some kids to show them who is their new master".

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 02, 2014, 08:04:51 am
Wow man....just wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 02, 2014, 08:24:17 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 12:39:33 am
Just wondering :  how EU can sign a treaty with a country suffering a civil war ? And a country suspected to perpetrate ethnic cleansing.
I don't know what mainstream medias says about Ukraine because actually they just tell nothing but football... How can you get any information this way ???

I see ukrainian people who really fear the new power at Kiev. And I can recognize a fascist militia when I see one. Also the hand of the West.
When I see your agressivity and the faith in your medias I can understand the fear of these people.

What's your argument exacty ? "These guys are brainwashed. Let's bomb their cities and kill some kids to show them who is their new master".
"how EU can sign a treaty with a country suffering a civil war ?" EU signed a treaty with Georgia and Moldova, don't forget that, its significant. Those have parts of them occupied by russian forces too. And what is the problem with signing treaties? Why not?
"And a country suspected to perpetrate ethnic cleansing." - that came from the ONLY source possible: putlers media. You seen any other even remotely respectible news outlet reporting this? Or you believe blindly channels, which were proven to fabricate and lie again and again.
"I don't know what mainstream medias says about Ukraine because actually they just tell nothing but football... How can you get any information this way ???" you generlize and play dumb. There is plenty of stuff happening besides football and plenty of news reporting too.
"I see ukrainian people who really fear the new power at Kiev. And I can recognize a fascist militia when I see one. Also the hand of the West.
When I see your agressivity and the faith in your medias I can understand the fear of these people." This whole FEAR was MANUFACTURED by one single media pounding bullshit again and again (even if they have different names, lit RT/LifeNews/etc.). 99% of media say one thing, and you choose the one who touts epic bullshit and lies. Why?
"What's your argument exacty ? "These guys are brainwashed. Let's bomb their cities and kill some kids to show them who is their new master"." This is cheap attempt to make someone else argue/defend an undefendable point :) Are they brainwashed? Yes. Does Ukraine forces bomb cities and kill kids? You really believe that? I would not expect Ukraine leaders to be as stupid as you expect... I mean - who on their sane mind would commit attrocities on their own people just to prove a point? (OHHHhhhh.... snap... putler would, but that is Chechnya's story). I would not deem everyone as stupid as you portray them. Would you do that if you were in power?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 09:19:39 am
I showed that a journalist from the BBC said the same things than "putlers medias".
As there is actually quite no western medias present in Ukraine (or maybe they are just sleeping in hotels), we must trust russian medias and independant people posting videos on the net.
When I listen to the ukrainian medias it sound always like a racist propaganda. Sorry but russian media seems more reliable in this case.
In France, a lot of serious analysis confirm what I say about Ukraine. It's not a secret or a russian propaganda. But we have also some people who make regular propaganda (Bernard Henri Levy, in Lybia or in Georgia for exemple), who attacks constantly Putin without any proof or anything concrete.
When you say "Putler", you clearly looks brainwashed by western propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 02, 2014, 09:36:56 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 09:19:39 am
I showed that a journalist from the BBC said the same things than "putlers medias".
As there is actually quite no western medias present in Ukraine (or maybe they are just sleeping in hotels), we must trust russian medias and independant people posting videos on the net.
When I listen to the ukrainian medias it sound always like a racist propaganda. Sorry but russian media seems more reliable in this case.
In France, a lot of serious analysis confirm what I say about Ukraine. It's not a secret or a russian propaganda. But we have also some people who make regular propaganda (Bernard Henri Levy, in Lybia or in Georgia for exemple), who attacks constantly Putin without any proof or anything concrete.
When you say "Putler", you clearly looks brainwashed by western propaganda.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 02, 2014, 09:49:53 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 09:19:39 am
I showed that a journalist from the BBC said the same things than "putlers medias".
As there is actually quite no western medias present in Ukraine (or maybe they are just sleeping in hotels), we must trust russian medias and independant people posting videos on the net.
When I listen to the ukrainian medias it sound always like a racist propaganda. Sorry but russian media seems more reliable in this case.
In France, a lot of serious analysis confirm what I say about Ukraine. It's not a secret or a russian propaganda. But we have also some people who make regular propaganda (Bernard Henri Levy, in Lybia or in Georgia for exemple), who attacks constantly Putin without any proof or anything concrete.
When you say "Putler", you clearly looks brainwashed by western propaganda.

As one guy put it...
Quote from: Tibe on July 02, 2014, 08:04:51 am
Wow man....just wow.

I showed that a journalist from the BBC said the same things than "putlers medias". Pitiful overgeneralization... putlers media says too much shit for me to believe this shit. In SOME cases - the news might match, but in general - its two different pictures. Best lies come on top of true bits of info.
As there is actually quite no western medias present in Ukraine (or maybe they are just sleeping in hotels), we must trust russian medias and independant people posting videos on the net. What ass did you pull this from? Even a small country like Lithuania has few photojournalists in Sloviansk reporting daily... Wake up. And as to the part of "we must trust russian medias..." You may want/like/have to trust russian media - but like HELL we "must trust" it.
When I listen to the Ukrainian medias it sound always like a racist propaganda. Sorry but russian media seems more reliable in this case. When you listen and believe putlers media - ALL REMAINING WORLD sounds like a false propaganda. Thats the problem. I personally do not understand ukrainian language, thus I do not consume their news sources, but there are plenty without them. What on earth makes YOU believe, that one or the other side of the conflict would not be radical and/or propaganda like? I.e. why russian media should be treated even remotely more reliable than Ukrainian? This is absolute idiocy, I can't find a better word for it.

I'm not the only one BY FAR comparing putler to a main choco chip kookie. E.g. prince of UK shares my opinion... Bite me.  If it barks like a dog, acts like a dog and smells like a dog - it must be putlera dog. The last guy annexing parts of neighboring countries to "defend our nationals abroad was.... you tell me, ok?  :rolleyes: Also - why put capital P in putler?  :lol:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on July 02, 2014, 09:55:34 am
Yeahhh there is no 300 pages !

PARTY TIME !
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 02, 2014, 10:19:46 am
Quote from: Herezy92 on July 02, 2014, 09:55:34 am
Yeahhh there is no 300 pages !

PARTY TIME !
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Tibe was 1st, whats the party about? :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 02, 2014, 11:26:52 am
How about we fill this page with kittens and end it.
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This thread is more about tovi's bullshit vs everyone else, so its best to shut it down.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 11:29:37 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 02, 2014, 09:49:53 am
As one guy put it...
I showed that a journalist from the BBC said the same things than "putlers medias". Pitiful overgeneralization... putlers media says too much shit for me to believe this shit. In SOME cases - the news might match, but in general - its two different pictures. Best lies come on top of true bits of info.
As there is actually quite no western medias present in Ukraine (or maybe they are just sleeping in hotels), we must trust russian medias and independant people posting videos on the net. What ass did you pull this from? Even a small country like Lithuania has few photojournalists in Sloviansk reporting daily... Wake up. And as to the part of "we must trust russian medias..." You may want/like/have to trust russian media - but like HELL we "must trust" it.
When I listen to the Ukrainian medias it sound always like a racist propaganda. Sorry but russian media seems more reliable in this case. When you listen and believe putlers media - ALL REMAINING WORLD sounds like a false propaganda. Thats the problem. I personally do not understand ukrainian language, thus I do not consume their news sources, but there are plenty without them. What on earth makes YOU believe, that one or the other side of the conflict would not be radical and/or propaganda like? I.e. why russian media should be treated even remotely more reliable than Ukrainian? This is absolute idiocy, I can't find a better word for it.

I'm not the only one BY FAR comparing putler to a main choco chip kookie. E.g. prince of UK shares my opinion... Bite me.  If it barks like a dog, acts like a dog and smells like a dog - it must be putlera dog. The last guy annexing parts of neighboring countries to "defend our nationals abroad was.... you tell me, ok?  :rolleyes: Also - why put capital P in putler?  :lol:

Do not thnik that the West is the whole world. In fact, few people trust western tales.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 02, 2014, 11:39:44 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 11:29:37 am
Do not thnik that the West is the whole world. In fact, few people trust western tales.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2014, 12:47:54 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 02, 2014, 11:26:52 am
How about we fill this page with kittens and end it.
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This thread is more about tovi's bullshit vs everyone else, so its best to shut it down.

Good point. Ur smart Tibe. Now we can derail this shit thread. I never thought of it.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on July 02, 2014, 02:32:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2014, 02:37:52 pm
mmmh I'd hit that pussy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2014, 04:44:22 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on July 02, 2014, 05:12:18 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 02, 2014, 08:55:46 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 02, 2014, 11:29:37 am
Do not thnik that the West is the whole world. In fact, few people trust western tales.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 02, 2014, 09:10:48 pm
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Both end with the letter "i" and have one "t" in them. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!!!

Good job Dave. But I went a bit deeper. Found more evidence!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 02, 2014, 10:22:39 pm
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I am surprised nobody thought about this before
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2014, 12:17:51 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 03, 2014, 09:55:37 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on July 02, 2014, 04:44:22 pm



That's one good song, thanks! :)

And as to the derail -
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2014, 11:08:12 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 04, 2014, 12:51:00 am
There is should be a test for Tovi (correct answers are enlisted, if you match them all including the last one - congrats, you're Tovi!):
- Where is Yanukovych? — in Russia.
- Where is former minister of internal affairs? — in Russia.
- Where is former head of SBU? — in Russia.
- Where is former minister of defence? — in Russia.
- Where is former attorney general? — in Russia.
- Who instructed them? — Russia.
- Who occupied Crimea? — Russia.
- Who helped to organize pseudo-referendum in Crimea? — Russia.
- Who keeps 100,000 troops at the border of Ukraine? - Russia.
- Who interferes in pretty much everything pointing out what kind of constitution, languages and form of government Ukraine should be? — Russia.
- Who is guilty in all of that? — USA and Right Sector!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 12:58:26 am
no matter if it russian dick or eu its still a dick and u keep sucking it  :( have free time gonna make picture for u!

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 04, 2014, 01:03:24 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 12:58:26 am
no matter if it russian dick or eu its still a dick and u keep sucking it  :( have free time gonna make picture for u!

Still it should be none of your business, you know. For all the years you and Nebun try to speak English, probably even an ape would learn it but yet you fail. So why would I be interested in your opinion Tovi-like-boy?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 01:44:03 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 04, 2014, 01:03:24 am
Still it should be none of your business, you know. For all the years you and Nebun try to speak English, probably even an ape would learn it but yet you fail. So why would I be interested in your opinion Tovi-like-boy?
soo rude ((
I'm smarter than monkeys! just I'm not strong enough motivated to learn English  :(
 


the secret of your excellent knowledge of both Russian and English languages.
1.
(click to show/hide)
2.
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on July 04, 2014, 02:52:21 am
Ugh retards....i guess derailing has to continue.


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on July 04, 2014, 07:10:49 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 04, 2014, 12:51:00 am
There is should be a test for Tovi (correct answers are enlisted, if you match them all including the last one - congrats, you're Tovi!):
- Where is Yanukovych? — in Russia.
- Where is former minister of internal affairs? — in Russia.
- Where is former head of SBU? — in Russia.
- Where is former minister of defence? — in Russia.
- Where is former attorney general? — in Russia.
- Who instructed them? — Russia.
- Who occupied Crimea? — Russia.
- Who helped to organize pseudo-referendum in Crimea? — Russia.
- Who keeps 100,000 troops at the border of Ukraine? - Russia.
- Who interferes in pretty much everything pointing out what kind of constitution, languages and form of government Ukraine should be? — Russia.
- Who is guilty in all of that? — USA and Right Sector!

There is no black and white here. Russia has been pulling strings but so has the USA.

(click to show/hide)

Anyway, translate and read this:

http://znak.com/moscow/news/2014-07-04/1024886.html

 
Quote
"There is such a disposition ... hard situation. Two days ago, Peter Poroshenko (Ukrainian President) proposed a "freeze" the conflict in the Donetsk and Lugansk region for several months, the militias and the Ukrainian army mutually ceased fire, Russia does not recognize any DNR or LC. Poroshenko this plan is not adopted, every day kill civilians. Peacekeeping operation on the part of Russia is ready; if it takes place, several Russian units will simply take in the major cities of ring protection to ensure the safety of civilians, "- said the source publication.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 07:52:06 am
Quote from: Chosen1 on July 04, 2014, 07:10:49 am
(click to show/hide)

tip how to read news
1. open link
2. ctr+F "source"
 2.a. if found - close page
 2.b. if not - start reading
 


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 04, 2014, 09:31:11 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 12:58:26 am
no matter if it russian dick or eu its still a dick and u keep sucking it  :( have free time gonna make picture for u!

The ugly thing is - Ukraine should not have a choice in this matter according to putler. "Ukraine is supposedly part of slav world" and all that nazstzseee shit follows.

THere are 3 countries, which were fucked by russia recently: Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova (ok, Moldova had its territory problems for QUITE a while now). Ask yourself Vovka, Tovi - why all of these 3 nations are eager to suck the dick of EU/Western world? Maybe, just MAYBE - the thing you call "sucking the dick" is cooperation, which would in turn bring about better condition for the sex partners all involved in the cooperation? Once russia starts sucking dick, and then balls of China, since noone else wants that herpes infested bitch around - THEN it might suddenly dawn on you that sucking one dick alone and not having a choice about it is not a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on July 04, 2014, 10:46:38 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 04, 2014, 01:09:42 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 04, 2014, 09:31:11 am
The ugly thing is - Ukraine should not have a choice in this matter according to putler. "Ukraine is supposedly part of slav world" and all that nazstzseee shit follows.

THere are 3 countries, which were fucked by russia recently: Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova (ok, Moldova had its territory problems for QUITE a while now). Ask yourself Vovka, Tovi - why all of these 3 nations are eager to suck the dick of EU/Western world? Maybe, just MAYBE - the thing you call "sucking the dick" is cooperation, which would in turn bring about better condition for the sex partners all involved in the cooperation? Once russia starts sucking dick, and then balls of China, since noone else wants that herpes infested bitch around - THEN it might suddenly dawn on you that sucking one dick alone and not having a choice about it is not a lot of fun.
:D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 04, 2014, 02:36:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 12:58:26 am
no matter if it russian dick or eu its still a dick and u keep sucking it  :( have free time gonna make picture for u!

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Yeah, except EU hasn't and never would invade Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 04, 2014, 03:35:58 pm
Russia has been invading Ukraine for 4 months now.
Either Ukraine is really strong, or their must be some kind of mistake.

Maybe ask the thousands maimed/dead Ukrainians?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 04, 2014, 03:52:05 pm
Its called unconventional warfare. Russia cant straight up send all their shit in. It would be insane. Seriuslly butan, i thought by now youd be quiet in this thread, since you were just plain wrong many pages back. When we stated that tanks and weapons were coming in from Russia you said "stfu, theres no proof!". And we left it that way cause yes, few months ago that really was a quess. Now theres shitloads of undeniable evidence that equipment is coming from Russia. Like tanks and antitank weaponry. Either russians are involved or russian borderpatrol is one of the worst on the planet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 07:07:33 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 04, 2014, 03:52:05 pm
Now theres shitloads of undeniable evidence that equipment is coming from Russia. Like tanks and antitank weaponry.
kk shitloads..... gimme atleast 1 video pls how trucks with weapons and tanks cross ua-ru boarder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 04, 2014, 09:09:14 pm
Still lots of questions, on those I remain quiet since there is no conclusive proof despite what you say (or I've missed it and would be glad to see).

Until then, I debunk propaganda from both side. Not lots of east propaganda (except fascism accusation) so its mainly west. And some that comes from Tovi, I let you take care of  :lol: doing a fine job.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on July 04, 2014, 09:29:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 04, 2014, 09:09:14 pm
Not lots of east propaganda

lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 04, 2014, 10:38:32 pm
Quote from: Thomek on July 04, 2014, 09:29:55 pm
lol
Didn't you know you "must trust" russian media? MUST! putler demands it!
</irony>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 12:00:08 am
Eeh why do I bother...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on July 05, 2014, 02:19:19 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on July 05, 2014, 02:19:49 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on July 05, 2014, 02:20:12 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 08:58:00 am
Quote from: Tibe on July 04, 2014, 03:52:05 pm
Its called unconventional warfare. Russia cant straight up send all their shit in. It would be insane. Seriuslly butan, i thought by now youd be quiet in this thread, since you were just plain wrong many pages back. When we stated that tanks and weapons were coming in from Russia you said "stfu, theres no proof!". And we left it that way cause yes, few months ago that really was a quess. Now theres shitloads of undeniable evidence that equipment is coming from Russia. Like tanks and antitank weaponry. Either russians are involved or russian borderpatrol is one of the worst on the planet.

Proofs ? Ukrainians and russians weapons are exactly the same. And Ukraine is the biggest weapons black market in the world. That would be very hard to proove anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 09:56:05 am
if russian borderpatrol is letting equipment from their soil INTO ukr soil and people are seeing it, its clearly proof enough isnt it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 10:48:37 am
Quote from: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 09:56:05 am
if russian borderpatrol is letting equipment from their soil INTO ukr soil and people are seeing it, its clearly proof enough isnt it.

Who said that ?


Ok, let's look at this :

Anders Fogh Rasmussen (general secretary of NATO) said Russia have sent T72 into Ukraine. To proove it, he showed satellite pictures and this video :

It's not T72 but T64. And Russia has no more T64 for years. Only Ukraine has T64 ( almost 600).

So, if someone shows you a T64 and says it comes from Russia, he lies.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 11:13:34 am
Russia has about 4000 T64s. Just because they are out of commission and they arent used does not mean they dont exsist. They did send em and exactly for that reason that they dont use them themselves. Amazing that you manage to belive some random USA related conspiracycrap, thats barely logical to "normal people". But you dont belive such logical moves like this. Man you are in such denial. You hate US so much that you are rooting for the other side for no apparent reason.

And whats the point of me posting sources here? Sofar nomatter what source we post here, we call it shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 11:36:52 am
Quote from: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 11:13:34 am
Sofar nomatter what source we post here, we call it shit.

I must agree with that point  :wink:


But these T64 are equiped with PNK-6 (http://photopribor.ck.ua/en/products/defense/equipment_for_armored_vehicles_control_systems/pnk-6_panoramic_tank_sighting_complex/) aiming system. Russia have no access to this technology (EADS).
Old russian T64 are totally rotten or destroyed. You cannot use them after 20 years letting them rotten outside.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 12:04:17 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 04, 2014, 07:07:33 pm
kk shitloads..... gimme atleast 1 video pls how trucks with weapons and tanks cross ua-ru boarder.


And so on. These are just random videos from other hundreds of such videos (I didn't look in details, maybe some of these videos are irrelevant though, but there are plenty to choose from). Russian military forces brings vehicles to the border, then abandon them to let DNR/LNR take them.
I mean how thick do you have to be not to admit this? Weren't you guys arguing about Russian Army in Crimea? How stupid do you look now when even Putin admits that?

Quote from: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 08:58:00 am
Proofs ? Ukrainians and russians weapons are exactly the same. And Ukraine is the biggest weapons black market in the world. That would be very hard to proove anything.

They're not exactly the same. You're incompetent in this question, like more than entirely.

Quote from: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 10:48:37 am
Who said that ?
It's not T72 but T64. And Russia has no more T64 for years. Only Ukraine has T64 ( almost 600).

That just proves one more time how incompetent you are. Where did you take this information even? Ukraine has around 2k of T64, same with Russia, both countries use some modifications and both countries are "saving" them in warehouses. And yes, they're different with a lot of modifications.

Quote from: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 11:36:52 am
But these T64 are equiped with PNK-6 (http://photopribor.ck.ua/en/products/defense/equipment_for_armored_vehicles_control_systems/pnk-6_panoramic_tank_sighting_complex/) aiming system. Russia have no access to this technology (EADS).
Old russian T64 are totally rotten or destroyed. You cannot use them after 20 years letting them rotten outside.
One more incompetent bullshit. First of all, where did you see PNK-6 on those tanks? Second, I didn't see a single T-64 with PNK-6 (though it's possible). You probably read something like a Wikipedia article not realizing that T-64, T-64BM and T-64E are 3 different things.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 12:22:51 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 11:36:52 am
But these T64 are equiped with PNK-6 (http://photopribor.ck.ua/en/products/defense/equipment_for_armored_vehicles_control_systems/pnk-6_panoramic_tank_sighting_complex/) aiming system. Russia have no access to this technology (EADS).
Old russian T64 are totally rotten or destroyed. You cannot use them after 20 years letting them rotten outside.

Why are you trying to deny it so damn hard? You condemn US for significantly less proof and you are trying to deny something so oblivious. There are various tanks with various modifications and in various states, especially in Russia, a country that has a quite large warindustry. And you dont know that all the T64s are totally rotten or destroyed, you assume this. Considering that there were a lot of these made, its not very hard to belive quite many of them are still in working condition. And that still doesnt deny the fact that tanks were seen crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine.

"T-64 - Number built    ~13,000"  Tovi knows for a fact that none of them are in working condition and is aware of all the modifications they have! God your sources are amazing tovi. Tell us more truth please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 05, 2014, 12:40:39 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 09:56:05 am
if russian borderpatrol is letting equipment from their soil INTO ukr soil and people are seeing it, its clearly proof enough isnt it.

From the videos posted by Dave, I see 70% APC captured by rebels (I can show you videos of the capture?) which everyone know they have; the rest being road/rail transport of tanks, from where to where, by whom, impossible to tell (especially when landmarks are not shown or in cyrillic). There was those videos during the first months of the unrest, and it was transport inside Ukraine or Russia to show that tension was increasing, and the "vacants" armored vehicles were seen at the borders of the countries to show that both had dig in and prepared for war.


No videos of russian people leaving their shiny tanks in a hurry, and rebels quickly taking control of it... or could you press me to the alleged video and give me the time it happens? I admit I looked at a glance  :wink:

Quote from: Tibe on July 04, 2014, 03:52:05 pm
Its called unconventional warfare.

Unconventional warfare doesnt mean supporting rebels openly or not. It relates to what weapons are used, and bombs/missiles/bullets are part of a conventional warfare.
One could also add that, even though dictaroship Russia is strongly invading freedom Ukraine, there is an obvious lack of bombs/missiles from the insurgency side.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 01:23:01 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_warfare
"The Department of Defense defines unconventional warfare as activities conducted to enable a resistance movement or insurgency to coerce, disrupt, or overthrow a government or occupying power by operating through or with an underground, auxiliary, and guerrilla force in a denied area."

Which means exactly supporting rebels openly or not and which is exactly what Russia is accused of. Along the lines of just straight up annexation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 05, 2014, 01:27:51 pm
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This thread has become the special Olympics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 01:35:31 pm
I wanted to keep it derailed. Damn it I tried.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 05, 2014, 01:54:10 pm
You're right, I thought it was the term used for non conventional weapons used in war.

Quote from: Thomek on July 04, 2014, 09:29:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 04, 2014, 09:09:14 pm
Not lots of east propaganda
lol

Should have precised : not lots of east propaganda to debunk on that thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 05, 2014, 02:30:33 pm
Butan and Tovi posts are like watching a trainwreck; they keep getting proven wrong time and time again and they just shrug it off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 03:39:10 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 05, 2014, 12:40:39 pm
From the videos posted by Dave, I see 70% APC captured by rebels (I can show you videos of the capture?) which everyone know they have; the rest being road/rail transport of tanks, from where to where, by whom, impossible to tell (especially when landmarks are not shown or in cyrillic). There was those videos during the first months of the unrest, and it was transport inside Ukraine or Russia to show that tension was increasing, and the "vacants" armored vehicles were seen at the borders of the countries to show that both had dig in and prepared for war.


No videos of russian people leaving their shiny tanks in a hurry, and rebels quickly taking control of it... or could you press me to the alleged video and give me the time it happens? I admit I looked at a glance  :wink:

Unconventional warfare doesnt mean supporting rebels openly or not. It relates to what weapons are used, and bombs/missiles/bullets are part of a conventional warfare.
One could also add that, even though dictaroship Russia is strongly invading freedom Ukraine, there is an obvious lack of bombs/missiles from the insurgency side.

Oh master Butan is back to the game. What are "captured" Ukrainian APCs doing in Russia then? I cba to prove anything to you as even if Putin personally comes to you and tells something you would still not believe it. Because ignorance is your biggest quality. They do it like this: remove all the license plates and drop it on the road. Simple like that.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 05, 2014, 04:14:50 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 03:39:10 pm
Oh master Butan is back to the game. What are "captured" Ukrainian APCs doing in Russia then? I cba to prove anything to you as even if Putin personally comes to you and tells something you would still not believe it. Because ignorance is your biggest quality. They do it like this: remove all the license plates and drop it on the road. Simple like that.
(click to show/hide)
http://uainfo.org/yandex/349010-kak-proishodit-peredacha-rossiyskoy-tehniki-boevikam-lnr-foto.html

the author says that photo was taken on the way to Kuban after
crossroads Lugansk (a260) and road "DON" M4 i think soooo

https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.246121,40.288468,3a,75y,39.96h,73.05t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx5fy3qHHRSw0LrE4CZLidg!2e0

goodluck to find dat place, i listed several kilometers and I could not find any similar place. by the way, on  this photo is no road markings

also admire a hight skill dat user to take a photo at a speed of 100km / h
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 04:35:59 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 05, 2014, 04:14:50 pm
http://uainfo.org/yandex/349010-kak-proishodit-peredacha-rossiyskoy-tehniki-boevikam-lnr-foto.html

the author says that photo was taken on the way to Kuban after
crossroads Lugansk (a260) and road "DON" M4 i think soooo

https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.246121,40.288468,3a,75y,39.96h,73.05t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx5fy3qHHRSw0LrE4CZLidg!2e0

goodluck to find dat place, i listed several kilometers and I could not find any similar place. by the way, on  this photo is no road markings

also admire a hight skill dat user to take a photo at a speed of 100km / h

Ok, you won! КРЫМНАШ
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 05, 2014, 04:47:28 pm
found dat guy...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=657487524326031&set=pb.100001943677752.-2207520000.1404571203.&type=3&theater

check place where here he take photo
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rogovskaya-Krasnodarskiy-Kray-Russia/114676798542950

also in comment he clme what:
(click to show/hide)

"bla bla no troops bla bla abandoned bl bla bl nd my And interestingly, the navigator GSM, in the car like crazy, off course, the current map of the area began to turn on the monitor like a propeller. Kilometers through all three returned to their seats, and he continued to plot a route"

HOLY SHIT ALIENS KIDNAP RUSSIAN SOLDIERS, SO TERRORIST COULD STEAL RU VEHICLES! ALL REPOST !!!


Quote from: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 04:35:59 pm
Ok, you won! КРЫМНАШ
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I donk care about  Crimea
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 04:59:55 pm
Vovka you ever do this much research on info thats pro-russian? Or you just bluntly belive that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 05, 2014, 05:24:14 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 03:39:10 pm
They do it like this: remove all the license plates and drop it on the road. Simple like that.[/spoiler]

If there was one tank offered to a rebel for every simple thing you said, Kiev would be surrounded by heavy armors.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 06:16:01 pm
I've never said  russian army was not in Crimea. In fact, they had the right to be there as they own a military base in the region.
So if even Putin admit it. Why don't you believe him when he says not sending equipment to Ukraine ?  :)

A lot of ukrainian officers have been fired during the 2000's decade (to reform the army). So, a lot of them joined rebel forces now.
If they really have such weapons, we could see a real war in Ukraine. All we can see actually is half a million of east ukrainians flee to Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 05, 2014, 06:32:37 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 04:35:59 pm
Ok, you won! КРЫМНАШ
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 05, 2014, 09:52:05 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 05, 2014, 06:16:01 pm
I've never said  russian army was not in Crimea. In fact, they had the right to be there as they own a military base in the region.
So if even Putin admit it. Why don't you believe him when he says not sending equipment to Ukraine ?  :)

A lot of ukrainian officers have been fired during the 2000's decade (to reform the army). So, a lot of them joined rebel forces now.
If they really have such weapons, we could see a real war in Ukraine. All we can see actually is half a million of east ukrainians flee to Russia.
Ignorance is bliss as they say.
putler had the right to keep AGREED amount of military personell IN BASES, and instead - they were all over the place. So why don't you just suck it up and admit of being wrong and just fucking move on.
As to "believing" putler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_Memorandums - he promissed NOT to annex Crimea... tough luck I say. Then he said that his forces are moving away from border for like... 3 times? Only afterwards he actually started... something of a pullout back to bases... which is still a funny "pull back", as it seems tanks and guns are being left on the border to be "found"  :rolleyes: So... you still trust putler?

A followup question - where were the tanks, when the whole separatism BS started? Why not demonstrate and parade them THEN?

What half milion refugees? Then one counted by putler? Should we believe first, second or the latest announcement about the refugees he/his lackeys made? And no - I'm not denying there is a bunch of them NOW, that hot action is taking place, but before the whole separatist bs was cooked up (by no other than the putlers media btw) - majority of refugees were Crimean Tatars. CBA to find UN report about it, already did it once.
Also - define "real war", because IMO - you already have one. "Such weapons"... tanks? Or what did you mean? FOR EXAMPLE - russians were moving a battle group of 8(?) tanks a month or so ago. In total by passers filmed 90+ vehicles in that column. Because THAT is what it takes to have an effective use of tanks. + training. +support/logistics. +command to manage it all.  And when you are a separatist - its hard to pull that shit off. So even if you have "such tank. much wow." - its going to last only as long as its not broken, fueled and armed, each of which is difficult to maintain for prolonged periods of action.
On the other hand - if you are putler and have a bunch of written off tanks getting rusty in some garages - this is an epic way to use them: throw them at the friendly slav country and enjoy the fireworks, until the not-needed tanks are out of ammo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 05, 2014, 10:16:16 pm
Meanwhile in Ukraine...
Most prepared group of separatists with their leader Girkin retreated from Sloviansk and Kramatorsk and moved to Donetsk. Those cities are taken by our army at last.
Area taken by separatists is narrowing now, but It will be even more difficult in city with million population.
In Sloviansk it was only a little bit higher than 100k, and fights turned it into ruins. It's scary to think about how it will end up for Donetsk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 06, 2014, 12:27:25 am
At least, even if the insurgency fails to create a haven for russian and anti-maidan Ukrainian, some of the more peaceful civilians caught in the crossfire have already moved on to live in Russia/Crimea.
Those that will remain will ever be a problem for Ukraine, at least as long as the "anti-terrorist" crackdown continues without any form of conclusive diplomatic talks (ultimatums and no representative councils doesnt count).

If as you say the separatists are losing ground, it may end soon. If the Ukrainian army is too exhausted, it may stop then, and resume the diplomatic/economical pressure for the release of Crimea, as Russia will to weaken Ukraine and secure Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 06, 2014, 12:53:52 am
As I said in the begining of this thread, a lot of soldiers and officer of the regular army joined the separatists (while Pravy Sector joined the National Guard). So, that explain why they have trained figthers and logistic.
Ukraine is one of the first country in military equipment production. They don't really need help from outside. BUT... I don't say it's not the case. I'm just sceptical when I hear NATO nations constantly blame Russia with slight or no proof.
 Because, I ,actually, have more evidences that we (western countries) have strongly helped the Maïdan insurection (especially before and after this event).

IMO, there is no good guys or bad guys (except Svoboda and Pravy S.). And Putin is not worst than Obama. But the western empire drives too many agressive policies all around the world. Just to avoid an Eurasiatic bloc and preserve the dollar domination. It's dangerous, and it leads to war and totalitarism everywhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on July 06, 2014, 01:34:15 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 06, 2014, 12:53:52 am
As I said in the begining of this thread, a lot of soldiers and officer of the regular army joined the separatists (while Pravy Sector joined the National Guard). So, that explain why they have trained figthers and logistic.
Ukraine is one of the first country in military equipment production. They don't really need help from outside. BUT... I don't say it's not the case. I'm just sceptical when I hear NATO nations constantly blame Russia with slight or no proof.
 Because, I ,actually, have more evidences that we (western countries) have strongly helped the Maïdan insurection (especially before and after this event).

IMO, there is no good guys or bad guys (except Svoboda and Pravy S.). And Putin is not worst than Obama. But the western empire drives too many agressive policies all around the world. Just to avoid an Eurasiatic bloc and preserve the dollar domination. It's dangerous, and it leads to war and totalitarism everywhere.

Tovi, yes, the west (mostly US) have been some bad bastards since the fall of the SU, but you have to understand this is simply because RF have been chaos most of that time, and the US took the huge power vacuum that emerged when SU fell. This doesn't automatically make Russia good however. Many parts of Eastern Europe drowned in alchohol, crime, corruption, decay and poverty after SU fall. Perhaps partly because of the shock economics, but also simply because it just takes time to turn the minds of people, not to mention giant armies, ineffective industries and infrastructure. With the SU planned economy, whole cities and regions suddenly had very little to do. Now that RF is back on their feet, it is important for them to show strength. Both as a signal to other world players, but also to their own population.

I have seen some parts of eastern europe through travels. What I've seen is that it is almost a line going from the western parts to the eastern. It gets worse and worse the more east you go. Then you get to Russia, which is crazy.

I do understand why ukrainians want to turn west. Because if you just look around a bit, it is all very clear. Life for the average person is better the more west you go. The west have a system that works best in the world. That's why the west is on top of it. Eastern Bloc countries come from a system that collapsed on its own feet, and they are only to various degrees freed from it. The rotten system didn't really change that much.

Tovi, understand this please:
You or I might not love US foreign policy or EU policy. It can be quite scary at times with the mixup with capitalism and power.
But this doesn't mean the rest of the world is better. Most of the world, is way way worse. More lies, more theft, much more poverty, more desperation, more pollution, more abuse of the average person. Even though capitalism is unfair as fuck, most other systems are way more unfair in practice.

This is the perspective I look at this Ukraine case in. What is better for Ukrainian people and the country itself? Russia will not impose on them effective anti-corruption measures. Russia thrives and uses the corruption for its own benefit (just like in Russia).

IMO Russia know they have lost Ukraine long time ago. Now they just forcibly say to them that they are tied together in blood. (which they are) And they better never forget it. Sooner or later, even Russia itself will move westward. There is a limit to how long their propaganda can keep their own people in check with the internet around. People want justice, not crime, democracy, not corruption, and even great Putler will have to adapt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 06, 2014, 08:16:36 am
You dont know shit about the East tovi. You live in France and you think USA is the worst thing that ever happened, clearly proves that you dont know anything about the actual situation. The thing is im more than certain if USA didnt exsist and there was no NATO, many Eastern-EU countries wouldnt even exsist by this time, due to being owned by Russia, or would be in a same shit state that eastern Ukraine is at. I dont think you consider Russia a threat because technically you are safe and so is your country. Trust me man, if your country and russia shared a border, you would think completely different things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 06, 2014, 08:20:39 am
Quote from: Thomek on July 06, 2014, 01:34:15 am
Tovi, yes, the west (mostly US) have been some bad bastards since the fall of the SU, but you have to understand this is simply because RF have been chaos most of that time, and the US took the huge power vacuum that emerged when SU fell. This doesn't automatically make Russia good however. Many parts of Eastern Europe drowned in alchohol, crime, corruption, decay and poverty after SU fall. Perhaps partly because of the shock economics, but also simply because it just takes time to turn the minds of people, not to mention giant armies, ineffective industries and infrastructure. With the SU planned economy, whole cities and regions suddenly had very little to do. Now that RF is back on their feet, it is important for them to show strength. Both as a signal to other world players, but also to their own population.

I have seen some parts of eastern europe through travels. What I've seen is that it is almost a line going from the western parts to the eastern. It gets worse and worse the more east you go. Then you get to Russia, which is crazy.

I do understand why ukrainians want to turn west. Because if you just look around a bit, it is all very clear. Life for the average person is better the more west you go. The west have a system that works best in the world. That's why the west is on top of it. Eastern Bloc countries come from a system that collapsed on its own feet, and they are only to various degrees freed from it. The rotten system didn't really change that much.

Tovi, understand this please:
You or I might not love US foreign policy or EU policy. It can be quite scary at times with the mixup with capitalism and power.
But this doesn't mean the rest of the world is better. Most of the world, is way way worse. More lies, more theft, much more poverty, more desperation, more pollution, more abuse of the average person. Even though capitalism is unfair as fuck, most other systems are way more unfair in practice.

This is the perspective I look at this Ukraine case in. What is better for Ukrainian people and the country itself? Russia will not impose on them effective anti-corruption measures. Russia thrives and uses the corruption for its own benefit (just like in Russia).
<...>

I think Tovi knows better. Than you and than 3 former SU nations, which recently signed association treaty with EU. And also Tovi knows, that NATO does not have intelligence capabilities. And the fact that they are using commercial sattelite images instead of their own military grade stuff is a sign of their incompetence and weakness. Such an incompetent and weak filthy western capitalism born organization CAN'T possibly speak truth.

"we must trust putler"...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 06, 2014, 09:44:35 am
Quote
Trust me man, if your country and russia shared a border, you would think completely different things.

No, he wouldn't. He would understand russian, read russian conspirology theories (this one is best http://vodaspb.ru/english/index.html ), call current antiterrorist operation a genocide against russian people done by jews and ukrainian fascists, praise Stalin, deny Holodomor and call repressions done by him necessary measures.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 06, 2014, 11:05:31 am
Ukrainian fascist hate jews too. That's why Israel is very doubtful with new Kiev power.

I don't say NATO was a bad thing. But actually we don't need it anymore. Because the new threat comes from the West. I really don't fear Russia and Putin. And no, the West is not the best model, it's just the most powerfull. It leechs all natural ressources of the rest of the world for its own profit. The USA are one of the most violent country, inside or outside its borders. With the world record of people in jail. One of the most unequal economic system. Even Cuba have better result in his average health with much less money.
Corruption is a part of our system, with lobbies influence, commercial and medias brainwashing. But ok, US and EU have money, and tons of debts impossible to pay back. But we have shit load of WEAPONS, so we don't give a fuck and we tell to the world what is good and what is bad : our dictators and terrorists are good guys while elected people like Chavez and Putin are dangerous populist. Even if they are far more popular than our own leaders. No matter we are the Good in any case.

Now Ukraine joined this heaven. We have bought their mineral ressources and Monsanto will control one of the most fertile land in the world. The country will now support debt and austerity.
If some eastern countries have a better economic situation it's because EU paid for, with my taxes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 06, 2014, 11:10:26 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 06, 2014, 11:05:31 am
Ukrainian fascist hate jews too. That's why Israel is very doubtful with new Kiev power.

I don't say NATO was a bad thing. But actually we don't need it anymore. Because the new threat comes from the West. [...]
Stopped reading there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 06, 2014, 11:16:52 am
When the dollar system will collapse (soon), you'll understand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 06, 2014, 11:47:15 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 06, 2014, 11:16:52 am
When the dollar system will collapse (soon), you'll understand.

Haha, Tovi is a collateral damage of Russian propaganda :lol:

Quote from: Yarl on July 05, 2014, 06:32:37 pm
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 06, 2014, 11:52:44 am
You know, I'm starting to wonder whether Tovi is just a really patient troll... nobody can be that stupid for real, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 06, 2014, 11:56:22 am
He can. I've seen it irl. But they were fresh immigrants, while tovi is....ehh...I dont know.

Mybe Tovi has some agenda, mybe USA killed his cat or something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 06, 2014, 01:18:10 pm
I have to doubt that Tovi has ever been outside his own country, much less travelled around the world. So little clue, such a warped and surreal perspective :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 06, 2014, 01:20:23 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 06, 2014, 11:47:15 am
Haha, Tovi is a collateral damage of Russian propaganda :lol:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 06, 2014, 02:11:20 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 06, 2014, 01:20:23 pm
(click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 06, 2014, 03:09:15 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 06, 2014, 02:11:20 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 06, 2014, 03:13:50 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 06, 2014, 01:20:23 pm
<...>
Я вообще себя забанил в этой теме да и в целом новости про укр.,  просто пролистывал и увидел, что наконец-то ты не стал сдерживаться и дал волю чувствам  :D
CBA to write kirilica, but still - this is I think one of the funnier things I read, even if kirilica hurts my eyes ;) You sound like you put your imperialistic-self-righteous-putler-supporting-all-knowing-and-objective ass on a podium and see truth from there + a bunch of idiots, who are not happy about shit russia is staging in Ukraine. And you cant understand why on earth should someone NOT like you or what your belived putler is doing there... you are on a podium after all... master-slav-race and all that shit shining bright about, yes?

And since news might crack your kingdom of curved mirrors - no uncomfortable news is allowed (unless served by putler approved media, I guess?).

Good fucking luck...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 06, 2014, 03:39:07 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 06, 2014, 03:13:50 pm
CBA to write kirilica, but still - this is I think one of the funnier things I read, even if kirilica hurts my eyes ;) You sound like you put your imperialistic-self-righteous-putler-supporting-all-knowing-and-objective ass on a podium and see truth from there + a bunch of idiots, who are not happy about shit russia is staging in Ukraine. And you cant understand why on earth should someone NOT like you or what your belived putler is doing there... you are on a podium after all... master-slav-race and all that shit shining bright about, yes?

And since news might crack your kingdom of curved mirrors - no uncomfortable news is allowed (unless served by putler approved media, I guess?).

Good fucking luck...
I have no idea what's going on in your head but you got everything wrong.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 06, 2014, 09:44:27 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 06, 2014, 11:16:52 am
When the dollar system will collapse (soon), you'll understand.

In your wet dream.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 07, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
Time will tell :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 07, 2014, 08:36:42 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 06, 2014, 01:18:10 pm
I have to doubt that Tovi has ever been outside his own country, much less travelled around the world. So little clue, such a warped and surreal perspective :|
You would be surprised :)

But, I must admit that I've never been in USA, I'm banned from this country  8-) Also, I never had any problem in any other countries, even dictatorships.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 07, 2014, 08:41:57 pm
LOOK at the medias you trust so much !!!


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pathetic
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 07, 2014, 08:42:44 pm
Ad hominen rampaging!


If what you're posting cant be preceded by "Meanwhile in Ukraine" and contain personal references, its probably not worth posting.



(click to show/hide)

CNN for you  :lol:
Honouring a time honored american profession of not knowing geography.
But the bottom line is its confirming what Serr said previously.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 07, 2014, 08:51:55 pm
Wut ? Dumb Ass is a country ? lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 07, 2014, 09:01:41 pm
Oh fuck you Tovi. This thread almost disappeared into the abyss of the second page of general discussion, which noone ever checks, until you started posting your tinfoilhatguyshit again.

 And there is no thing as "medias". Its just media. No plural.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 07, 2014, 09:09:01 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 07, 2014, 09:01:41 pm
Oh fuck you Tovi. This thread almost disappeared into the abyss of the second page of general discussion, which noone ever checks, until you started posting your tinfoilhatguyshit again.

 And there is no thing as "medias". Its just media. No plural.

That what you think. But for me plurality in medias is necessary.
 That's why we use plural in France  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 07, 2014, 09:17:19 pm
Oh...my...god.
Im out from this thread. No im serius. Wtf.....

Grammatically such a word as "medias" does not exist. Its not what I think. Its just how english is. And this explanation you gave here, just made me realise what a retard ive been for even discussing anything with you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 07, 2014, 09:42:12 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 07, 2014, 08:36:42 pm
You would be surprised :)

But, I must admit that I've never been in USA, I'm banned from this country  8-) Also, I never had any problem in any other countries, even dictatorships.

There's your problem right there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 07, 2014, 09:51:36 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 07, 2014, 09:42:12 pm
There's your problem right there.
This is not a problem, this is called "butthurt". In this case - it might have been literal butthurt before Tovi tried to board a plane for US of A ;) You know how those angry border guards are...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 07, 2014, 09:57:35 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 07, 2014, 09:01:41 pm
And there is no thing as "medias". Its just media. No plural.

Actually, "the media" is plural. The singular is medium.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 07, 2014, 11:24:10 pm
Arguing english grammar with a french, not a good idea  :P
Anyway Tovi knows he made a mistake, he proceeded to talk about the "plurality" as in the pluralism of media (more than one source)... You are pretending to not be able to read between lines just to have a chance at bitching.

Quote from: Tibe on July 07, 2014, 09:17:19 pm
Oh...my...god.
Im out from this thread. No im serius. Wtf.....

Taking bets we will see you before page 310!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 08, 2014, 08:22:03 pm
Do you really think all these people are lying ?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on July 08, 2014, 08:33:03 pm
Quote from: Molly on July 05, 2014, 01:27:51 pm
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This thread has become the special Olympics.
This.
All of you who destroyed our awesome kitten party must burn alive.
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Frog language inside, do not open !
(click to show/hide)

FrenchKiss
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 08, 2014, 09:09:50 pm
T pas obligé de lire ou de troller non plus.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 08, 2014, 10:11:13 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 08, 2014, 08:22:03 pm
Do you really think all these people are lying ?


Tovi, this looks like a food for you. A bunch of videos with added comments from random sources to be eaten with "we must trust these to be true" attitude... Some of those punks even wearing orange ribbons... I didn't know National Guard were using those? And ofc - Ukraine army is shelling all the cities held by separatists. Day and night. Always targeting civilian areas. Definitely. We should see another Grozno anytime now... With comparable number of casualties and destruction. Any day now. And ANY explosion, that actually kills someone  is always a work of Ukr Army, and DEFINITELY not the barely trained separatists. Or are they trained now and able to target their guns like a pro's never hitting anything they did not intend?

There is only ONE strange thing with that video - for a usual propaganda material - there is a serious lack of comments... :rolleyes:

Bon apetit, Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 09, 2014, 02:02:17 am
Quote from: Herezy92 on July 08, 2014, 08:33:03 pm
... et laisse courir.

GIVE HIM RUN
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 09, 2014, 02:13:03 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 07, 2014, 08:32:58 pm
Time will tell :


US has much better chance to win the World Cup in 2018 than this happening soon, so yeah, in your wet dream.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on July 09, 2014, 02:59:47 pm
Quote from: Christo on July 09, 2014, 02:02:17 am
GIVE HIM RUN
GIVE HIM A FRENCH RUN
Fixed :)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on July 09, 2014, 09:26:48 pm
Quote from: okiN on July 07, 2014, 09:57:35 pm
Actually, "the media" is plural. The singular is medium.

oh we got ourselves a professor haven't we? tell us professor, what does it take to to rape a roaster?

you don't know do ya? it's a cock
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 10, 2014, 09:48:10 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 08, 2014, 10:11:13 pm
Tovi, this looks like a food for you. A bunch of videos with added comments from random sources to be eaten with "we must trust these to be true" attitude... Some of those punks even wearing orange ribbons... I didn't know National Guard were using those? And ofc - Ukraine army is shelling all the cities held by separatists. Day and night. Always targeting civilian areas. Definitely. We should see another Grozno anytime now... With comparable number of casualties and destruction. Any day now. And ANY explosion, that actually kills someone  is always a work of Ukr Army, and DEFINITELY not the barely trained separatists. Or are they trained now and able to target their guns like a pro's never hitting anything they did not intend?

There is only ONE strange thing with that video - for a usual propaganda material - there is a serious lack of comments... :rolleyes:

Bon apetit, Tovi.



The National Guard use his artillery to destroy, mainly, the industry. Even without any milicians in the area. That's what they've done in Slaviansk and that's what they'll do in Donestk.
There was only slight damages in Slaviansk because the town was evacuated. But Donestk may be destroyed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 11, 2014, 09:06:44 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 10, 2014, 09:48:10 pm
The National Guard use his artillery to destroy, mainly, the industry. Even without any milicians in the area. That's what they've done in Slaviansk and that's what they'll do in Donestk.
There was only slight damages in Slaviansk because the town was evacuated. But Donestk may be destroyed.
Do you know a lot of sick people, who would be bombing their own industry to bits and then moving on to civilian areas? I kind of hesitate to ask - but do you judge them based on what YOU would do?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 11, 2014, 10:29:14 am
I have heard in the radio that the separatists don't want to agree to Poroshenko's peace deal still, and Russia doesn't want either because reasons. While US blames Russia for giving the seps weapons and not de-escalating the conflict.

Dear god when will this shitfest end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 11, 2014, 10:44:30 am
More mainstream media, I guess?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-abduction-and-torture-2014-07-11 (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-abduction-and-torture-2014-07-11)

Quote
The bulk of the abductions are being perpetrated by armed separatists, with the victims often subjected to stomach-turning beatings and torture. There is also evidence of a smaller number of abuses by pro-Kyiv forces.

Damn those Nazis in Kiev... The worst, I tell ya, the worst...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 11, 2014, 10:47:05 am
Quote from: Christo on July 11, 2014, 10:29:14 am
I have heard in the radio that the separatists don't want to agree to Poroshenko's peace deal still, and Russia doesn't want either because reasons. While US blames Russia for giving the seps weapons and not de-escalating the conflict.

Dear god when will this shitfest end.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 11, 2014, 11:52:31 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 11, 2014, 10:47:05 am
at the same moment when it no longer be profitable  :P visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I think you miss the bigger picture here. Obviosly NWO wants russia and putler to implode on themselves and then not only select parts of industry will be up for grabbing, but whole PARTS of russia. E.g. some jew wants novo-izraelsk in crimea... Buy all shit, make referendum, BOOM! Youre da new rabin of novoizraelskrym... Thats what NWO wants... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 11, 2014, 12:05:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 11, 2014, 11:52:31 am
I think you miss the bigger picture here. Obviosly NWO wants russia and putler to implode on themselves and then not only select parts of industry will be up for grabbing, but whole PARTS of russia. E.g. some jew wants novo-izraelsk in crimea... Buy all shit, make referendum, BOOM! Youre da new rabin of novoizraelskrym... Thats what NWO wants... :rolleyes:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 11, 2014, 01:59:12 pm
Quote from: Molly on July 11, 2014, 10:44:30 am
More mainstream media, I guess?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-abduction-and-torture-2014-07-11 (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-abduction-and-torture-2014-07-11)

Damn those Nazis in Kiev... The worst, I tell ya, the worst...

I guess you werent in this thread when soon after Maidan success, videos of pro-russians/russians being beaten/killed in the streets, in the newly liberated pro-EU zone, during the first counter maidan unrests, happened and were recorded and posted/commented here.
Both sides have been at it, noone is white, noone is black.

And Amnesty internation is mainstream indeed. "Hundreds of people have been abducted in the last 3 months." No shit, its a civil war, there is thousands of deads already, and they take the time to create a report that attest that one side is doing abductions (insinuating no pro-rus ever got abducted), and 2 interviews of guys with bruises on their faces and burns on their arms/legs? Really blowing my mind...
Not a "wrong" report per say, I believe abductions happened, but close to propaganda in its presentation and "time table".



Quote from: Kuujis on July 08, 2014, 10:11:13 pm
And ofc - Ukraine army is shelling all the cities held by separatists. Day and night. Always targeting civilian areas. Definitely. We should see another Grozno anytime now... With comparable number of casualties and destruction. Any day now.

Not day and night, but they are indeed bombarding civilians areas. Or do you insist that the separatists only take refuge in industrial/military zone? Of course if the Ukrainian army is using bombs against them, they are bombing civilians areas too, and Serr himself said that the cities that the rebels withdrew from are ruins now. You dont have to go very far on the internet to check a few casualty lists: bystanders have been killed and not only by stray russian bullets...
Its one of the inevitable effect of a outgunned rebellion, using guerrilla warfare in urban areas.



Quote from: Kuujis on July 08, 2014, 10:11:13 pm
And ANY explosion, that actually kills someone  is always a work of Ukr Army, and DEFINITELY not the barely trained separatists. Or are they trained now and able to target their guns like a pro's never hitting anything they did not intend?


So when a civilian dies, its the work of poorly trained ukrainian separatists using mismatched weapons, but when a ukrainian plane carrying personel is shot down, its the work of highly trained russian elite soldiers equipped with russian top gear?
Get your shit together.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 11, 2014, 02:05:45 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 11, 2014, 10:47:05 am
at the same moment when it no longer be profitable  :P visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Busted!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 11, 2014, 02:48:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 11, 2014, 01:59:12 pm
I guess you werent in this thread when soon after Maidan success, videos of pro-russians/russians being beaten/killed in the streets, in the newly liberated pro-EU zone, during the first counter maidan unrests, happened and were recorded and posted/commented here.
Both sides have been at it, noone is white, noone is black.

And Amnesty internation is mainstream indeed. "Hundreds of people have been abducted in the last 3 months." No shit, its a civil war, there is thousands of deads already, and they take the time to create a report that attest that one side is doing abductions (insinuating no pro-rus ever got abducted), and 2 interviews of guys with bruises on their faces and burns on their arms/legs? Really blowing my mind...
Not a "wrong" report per say, I believe abductions happened, but close to propaganda in its presentation and "time table".
[...]
As expected: creditable source doesn't fit "oh-so-informed" view and is discredited by "Old news, also hurd durrr war"...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 11, 2014, 02:57:20 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 11, 2014, 01:59:12 pm
I guess you werent in this thread when soon after Maidan success, videos of pro-russians/russians being beaten/killed in the streets, in the newly liberated pro-EU zone, during the first counter maidan unrests, happened and were recorded and posted/commented here.
Both sides have been at it, noone is white, noone is black.

And Amnesty internation is mainstream indeed. "Hundreds of people have been abducted in the last 3 months." No shit, its a civil war, there is thousands of deads already, and they take the time to create a report that attest that one side is doing abductions (insinuating no pro-rus ever got abducted), and 2 interviews of guys with bruises on their faces and burns on their arms/legs? Really blowing my mind...
Not a "wrong" report per say, I believe abductions happened, but close to propaganda in its presentation and "time table"...
Let me finish this for you: ... and because it does not fit what putlers propaganda tells me. Did I do it rite?
Also - you have something against Amnesty International? They have some hidden agenda.... Ohhh.... I see.... The A... is a
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Quote from: Butan on July 11, 2014, 01:59:12 pm
Not day and night, but they are indeed bombarding civilians areas. Or do you insist that the separatists only take refuge in industrial/military zone? Of course if the Ukrainian army is using bombs against them, they are bombing civilians areas too, and Serr himself said that the cities that the rebels withdrew from are ruins now. You dont have to go very far on the internet to check a few casualty lists: bystanders have been killed and not only by stray russian bullets...
Its one of the inevitable effect of a outgunned rebellion, using guerrilla warfare in urban areas.
Lets get on the same scale, ok? IF as you say civilian areas were bombed EVEN REMOTELY harshly as was Grozno - civilian casualties would be in thousands if not tens of thousands, instead of 500 during a period of what? 3 months now? So cut it with the crap of bombed towns. There ARE some casualties, this is not deniable, but the source and "authors" of those is ANYTHING but clear, while in your mind it somehow is "evil Kiev regime is bombing civilians in towns and leaving ruins". You want to see how ruins look like? Look it up how Grozno looked affter 1999 offensive and show me similar panorama in the "bombed" towns. There was damage, but IN NO WAY it was similar to what is being claimed. Its simply on a different scale.

Quote from: Butan on July 11, 2014, 01:59:12 pm
So when a civilian dies, its the work of poorly trained ukrainian separatists using mismatched weapons, but when a ukrainian plane carrying personel is shot down, its the work of highly trained russian elite soldiers equipped with russian top gear?
Get your shit together.
You are comparing one event with a continuous events, which is BS in itself, but I digress, my train-wreck of thought was flawed in this case. There is a bunch of reports about 5 mines being launched towards blocking posts and then immitation of "return fire" towards civilian areas. On the other hand - there was at least ONE burned down GRAD launcher vehicle, which was poorly handled and burned due to that (at least I got this impression from news). So I guess its more likely, that there is "average" training on both sides and only Ukrainian army is hitting the civilian areas... Yes, that must be the truth we must trust in. Because putlers "news agencies" say so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 11, 2014, 06:08:46 pm
Amnesty International is very rich. Main donators :

John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation
Oak Foundation
Open Society Georgia Foundation (= George Soros, wich fund all "Orange revolutions")
The Vanguard Charitable Endowment Programme
Mauro Tunes and American Jewish World Service.
Governance and Transparency Fund (UK)
EuropeAid (European Union)
Total

This NGO have strong links with the United States Department of State. Suzanne Nossel, his CEO comes directly from the Department of State, for exemple.

Just to say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 11, 2014, 07:58:45 pm
I'm not saying the amnesty report is not true, its even pretty obvious its true, but its very strange that they found only ukrainians hurt by separatists, and nothing else, right as of today.


Kuujis, you used the Grozny example, not me, so why are you screaming? I never pretended to compare the two.

There is way less combattants pitted against each other in Ukraine, and way less population involved, else the figures would be closer, but except for this, I said nothing on your comparison.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 11, 2014, 10:04:48 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 11, 2014, 07:58:45 pm
I'm not saying the amnesty report is not true, its even pretty obvious its true, but its very strange that they found only ukrainians hurt by separatists, and nothing else, right as of today.


Kuujis, you used the Grozny example, not me, so why are you screaming? I never pretended to compare the two.

There is way less combattants pitted against each other in Ukraine, and way less population involved, else the figures would be closer, but except for this, I said nothing on your comparison.
Oh... I'm sorry, lets see facts, shall we?

Chechnya - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
Population (2010 Census)[8]
 - Total    1,268,989
Population (January 2014 est.)
 - Total    1,346,500[10]

Donetsk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ukraine
Oblast (Province)    Indigenous name    Area in km2    Population at
2001 Census    Population at
2012 Estimate
Donetsk    Донецька Область    26,517    4,825,563    4,403,178
Luhans    Луганська Область    26,683    2,546,178    2,272,676

As to combatantants - I definitely agree, that scale is different, but look at the casualties of war when neither side gives a fuck about civilians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War and then see how current deployments in Ukraine look like. Your ignorance is bliss I guess.

And fuck your "not said anything", you never do. Only spout random BS and then "I did not say anything". "Not day and night, but they are indeed bombarding civilians areas." my ass. If those "bombings" were on a even remotely comparable scale, which is what you need in order to affect fighters entrenched in populated towns - you would see THOUSANDS dead, now there are 500 (mind you, still to much for my tastes). Even if they would do this only on "agreed hours" instead of night and day. Misses and unfortunate shit in warzone - thats happening. Intentional bombing of civilian areas is not.

Quote from: Tovi on July 11, 2014, 06:08:46 pm
Amnesty International is very rich. Main donators :
(click to show/hide)
This NGO is have strong links with the United States Department of State. Suzanne Nossel, his CEO comes directly from the Department of State, for exemple.

Just to say.
The saying is "just saying". Just saying :P
Also - man.... you FORGOT THE A! Definite NWO agents.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 11, 2014, 11:16:35 pm
I don't know what NWO is. I just know Imperialism as usual.

Anyway, Russia has declared a state of emergency in six provinces (the Oblasts of Rostov, Volgograd, and Astrakhan, the Krai of Stavropol, the Republic of Kalmykia and the city of Sebastopol) in the face of the acute influx of refugees.

Since the uprising of the Ukrainian Donbass and repression, 480,000 people have fled to Russia, where 20,451 have applied for political asylum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 12, 2014, 12:12:56 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 11, 2014, 11:16:35 pm
I don't know what NWO is. I just know Imperialism as usual.

Anyway, Russia has declared a state of emergency in six provinces (the Oblasts of Rostov, Volgograd, and Astrakhan, the Krai of Stavropol, the Republic of Kalmykia and the city of Sebastopol) in the face of the acute influx of refugees.

Since the uprising of the Ukrainian Donbass and repression, 480,000 people have fled to Russia, where 20,451 have applied for political asylum.
New world order!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 12, 2014, 12:35:48 am
Well, ok, I still don't get it  :wink:

I thought it was this

But I'm getting old.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 12, 2014, 01:21:44 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 11, 2014, 10:04:48 pm
Chechnya - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya
Population (2010 Census)[8]
 - Total    1,268,989
Population (January 2014 est.)
 - Total    1,346,500[10]

Donetsk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ukraine
Oblast (Province)    Indigenous name    Area in km2    Population at
2001 Census    Population at
2012 Estimate
Donetsk    Донецька Область    26,517    4,825,563    4,403,178
Luhans    Луганська Область    26,683    2,546,178    2,272,676


You are using the total population of Chechnya, not just Grozny.
And for the Ukraine, you are using the total population of the Oblasts, which are named by their administrative center. Luhans and Donetsk are both under a million unhabitants.


Quote from: Kuujis on July 11, 2014, 10:04:48 pm
"Not day and night, but they are indeed bombarding civilians areas." my ass. If those "bombings" were on a even remotely comparable scale, which is what you need in order to affect fighters entrenched in populated towns - you would see THOUSANDS dead, now there are 500 (mind you, still to much for my tastes). Even if they would do this only on "agreed hours" instead of night and day. Misses and unfortunate shit in warzone - thats happening. Intentional bombing of civilian areas is not.

Pray tell where the bombings happened then, since the fighters are using civilians areas as their bases? And your source on the 500 civilians casualties? Wait for the fog-of-war to settle, before underwhelming reports  :wink:




Btw, retracting what I said on the Amnesty report, they had a final paragraph where they also reported abductions from pro-Kiev forces. Less numerous they said, but its good to hear a casual and honest report :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 12, 2014, 06:49:02 pm

The leader of separatists confesses that he is a colonel of FSB in reserve (since 31st of March I didn't get 2013 or 2014 year, most likely 2013), also fought in Bosnia for 5 months (and other conflicts).

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 13, 2014, 12:59:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 12, 2014, 01:21:44 am
You are using the total population of Chechnya, not just Grozny.
And for the Ukraine, you are using the total population of the Oblasts, which are named by their administrative center. Luhans and Donetsk are both under a million unhabitants.
Oh you want totals for whole Chechnya conflict? You sure? Because those 500 I mentioned were a total for whole conflict you know. Once again - the way Ukraine is dealing with civilians is incomparable to how you and putlers media portray them. And that is becoming beyond ridiculous.
Btw - separatist forces are estimated to be around 10k (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28209170 before you ask), so that's quite comparable to what Chechnya had.

Quote from: Butan on July 12, 2014, 01:21:44 am
Pray tell where the bombings happened then, since the fighters are using civilians areas as their bases? And your source on the 500 civilians casualties? Wait for the fog-of-war to settle, before underwhelming reports  :wink:
Assuming, that those bombings of civilian areas HAPPENED on the scale you imagine - they happened in areas, which civilians were wise enough to evacuate, once the separatists fighters started moving in.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-report-details-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=1
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/213010.html

Quote from: Butan on July 12, 2014, 01:21:44 am
Btw, retracting what I said on the Amnesty report, they had a final paragraph where they also reported abductions from pro-Kiev forces. Less numerous they said, but its good to hear a casual and honest report :P
They must be bought. Just ask Tovi. He knows them to be NWO bought imperialist agents. As to shit being conducted by both sides - in whole sincerity - I would not expect it to be otherwise, even if that was NOT what I wished for.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on July 13, 2014, 03:54:30 pm
http://news.sky.com/story/1300160/putin-tells-britain-to-resolve-falklands-row
Quote
Vladimir Putin has waded into the Falkland Islands row, telling Britain it must sit down with Argentina for fresh talks to resolve the dispute.

The Russian president, who has faced international criticism over the annexation of Crimea and continuing tensions on the Ukraine border, said his country supported "the necessity" to find a solution to the 200-year-old feud.




Putin comparing the vote in crimea to the vote in the falklands O.o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 13, 2014, 11:03:14 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 13, 2014, 12:59:11 pm
Oh you want totals for whole Chechnya conflict? You sure? Because those 500 I mentioned were a total for whole conflict you know. Once again - the way Ukraine is dealing with civilians is incomparable to how you and putlers media portray them. And that is becoming beyond ridiculous.
Btw - separatist forces are estimated to be around 10k (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28209170 before you ask), so that's quite comparable to what Chechnya had.
Assuming, that those bombings of civilian areas HAPPENED on the scale you imagine - they happened in areas, which civilians were wise enough to evacuate, once the separatists fighters started moving in.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-report-details-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=1
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/213010.html
They must be bought. Just ask Tovi. He knows them to be NWO bought imperialist agents. As to shit being conducted by both sides - in whole sincerity - I would not expect it to be otherwise, even if that was NOT what I wished for.

The fact they serve US foreign policy doesn't mean they always lie. It's like Peace Nobel Prices, they are like "semi-independant"...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 13, 2014, 11:05:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 13, 2014, 11:03:14 pm
The fact they serve US foreign policy doesn't mean they always lie. It's like Peace Nobel Prices, they are like "semi-independant"...
I see...
Someone is saying the truth I dont like -> they lie -> they are servants of US -> they serve NWO.

Can I interest you in some tinfoil? For your hat. Extra stronk!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 13, 2014, 11:19:09 pm
No, I just say it's a good thing to knwo about these international organizations.
Snowden won't never have the Nobel's Prize, for exemple, but Obama do. The guy who shot people in the head for "justice", who kill children with drones etc. But it's ok.
Knowing some things gives another reading grid of international events.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 14, 2014, 08:48:37 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 13, 2014, 11:19:09 pm
No, I just say it's a good thing to knwo about these international organizations.
Snowden won't never have the Nobel's Prize, for exemple, but Obama do. The guy who shot people in the head for "justice", who kill children with drones etc. But it's ok.
Knowing some things gives another reading grid of international events.
This is a very slippery slope you are threading on. E.g. why would you trust a country which betrayed their treaty, whose leader semi-nationalized their media and why would you trust that semi-nationlized media, which was consistently proven to lie again and again?

BUT - you refuse to believe a report by an organization known for standing up for things they believe in?

The same putler gave the orders to bomb the fuck out of Grozno during the its siege in 1999, killing thousands of civilians in the process and now he is suddenly the good guy who knows whats best for neighboring country (like - opening borders for arms trafficing thru and thru)?

When do you plan to wake up?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 14, 2014, 01:04:03 pm
You seems to think that only russian media talk about the situation in Ukraine. But I read many different sources from different countries. Including Ukrainian people too.
In my post I showed a BBC journalist, different german newspapers and TV, french media/blog/analysis etc.
And I study geopolitic since many years, not suddenly with Ukraine events.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 14, 2014, 01:34:22 pm
When did Tovi said he didnt believe in the concerned report?

And its common knowledge that not all NGO are independant, some do have political agenda and cant be fully trusted... its a bit like most newspapers : some are politically engaged, a very few (at least, in France) are reporting events that sheds light on ALL misdeeds, not just a select few which bothers a particular side of the fence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 14, 2014, 02:22:25 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 14, 2014, 01:04:03 pm
You seems to think that only russian media talk about the situation in Ukraine. But I read many different sources from different countries. Including Ukrainian people too.
In my post I showed a BBC journalist, different german newspapers and TV, french media/blog/analysis etc.
And I study geopolitic since many years, not suddenly with Ukraine events.
Ok, I see... So, our dear friend, who "study geopolitic since many years" - pray tell me, why do we see 3 countries, which were fucked up by russia in one way or another (with equally fucked up end results though - russian troops occupying foreign territories), all trying to move west, instead of falling in love with the all-caring, all-nice, all-friendly salv-world-nation of mother russia?

Quote from: Butan on July 14, 2014, 01:34:22 pm
When did Tovi said he didnt believe in the concerned report?

And its common knowledge that not all NGO are independant, some do have political agenda and cant be fully trusted... its a bit like most newspapers : some are politically engaged, a very few (at least, in France) are reporting events that sheds light on ALL misdeeds, not just a select few which bothers a particular side of the fence.
Quote from: Tovi on July 11, 2014, 06:08:46 pm
    Amnesty International is very rich. Main donators :
    (click to show/hide)
    This NGO is have strong links with the United States Department of State. Suzanne Nossel, his CEO comes directly from the Department of State, for exemple.
    Just to say.

And to you personally Butan - try to SAY what you mean,, instead of backtracking "where did I say this or that". You have no idea whether Amnesty International is trust worthy? Say so. You think this particular report we were discussing is not trustworthy? SAY so. And say WHY you think so. Otherwise you sound like a blond hipster, who just wants to object and is unable to do any conclusions. Or even wors "must trust russian media, because they know best, because they are on the ground and there are no other news agencies there"...

"common knowledge that not all NGO"... what the fuck is this statement about?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 14, 2014, 03:07:51 pm
You accuse others of saying things they did not, you assume that it means something that they didnt even thought and procede to argue that they are not thinking properly.

I'm not going to ask you to mind your manners, it would be useless after a hundred pages full of caps name calling; I'm going to ask you to read properly before speaking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 14, 2014, 03:24:59 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 14, 2014, 03:07:51 pm
You accuse others of saying things they did not, you assume that it means something that they didnt even thought and procede to argue that they are not thinking properly.

I'm not going to ask you to mind your manners, it would be useless after a hundred pages full of caps name calling; I'm going to ask you to read properly before speaking.
OK... lets see, in the context of discussing validity of the report by Amnesty International regarding kidnappings and torture in Ukraine during this crisis and knowing Tovi's previous "anti-imperialims/NWO" comments - what meaning would you interpret from this text:
Quote from: Tovi on July 11, 2014, 06:08:46 pm
    Amnesty International is very rich. Main donators :
    (click to show/hide)
    This NGO is have strong links with the United States Department of State. Suzanne Nossel, his CEO comes directly from the Department of State, for exemple.
    Just to say.

I'm at a fucking loss :)

Also, for the record - I would choose manners instead of being polit-correct almost any time. So again - say what you want to say, motivate and be done with it. If you want to send someone to hell - be my fucking guest. We already have enough politicians talking abstract polite bullshit like "common knowledge that not all NGO... bla bla bla".

For a SECOND item to be on the record - I fucking stand by my statement, that a person who "must trust" (not my words :P ) putlers media is NOT thinking properly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rogue on July 14, 2014, 11:34:59 pm
My new favourite:

http://new-rus.info/news/ukraine_new_provider_of_human_organs/2014-07-07-118
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/angeblicher-organhandel-russische-propaganda-gegen-deutsch-ukrainerin-a-980304.html

The little detail that the poor women is a mathematician and not a doctor of medicine and her involvement in the conflict in Ukraine is limited to being of Ukrainian origin and posting a picture of her face in the Ukrainian national colours is of course of little importance. How can crap like this get all serious prime time coverage.

The only indisputable fact in this entire mess is that the biggest losers will be the ones stuck in the gangrenous pit that is Putin-Russia.

I admire your tenacity Midreek  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on July 15, 2014, 03:17:43 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 06:49:20 am
This video is a pretty good description of the situation.
It's not a question of blindly trust russian media.Even under Kremlin influence  they are actually in a strategy of truth telling, wich is very interesting. Not because they suddenly love the truth but because this is the only strategy to counter the US soft power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power).

About economical situation in eastern Europa. You must think in long term. In the past, Russia was ruined, and has no capacity to help anybody. Now, with oil benefits, they have no more debts and his economy will rise in the next decades. Because mineral ressources will become rare and expensive, EU will face big problems.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 15, 2014, 08:21:20 am
Quote
It's not a question of blindly trust russian media.Even under Kremlin influence  they are actually in a strategy of truth telling, wich is very interesting. Not because they suddenly love the truth but because this is the only strategy to counter the US soft power.

You get +1 from me for this :D

Last thing I heard from russian media was their interview several days ago with some refugee from Sloviansk who told that ukrainian soldiers gathered local residents on main square, crucified small boy like Jesus so he suffered from pain for two hours until he finally died, then tied his mother to tank and dragged her around the square 3 times.

And that's not some non-mainstream conspirology resource you love, that's "mainstream" russian media.

I'm really impressed of their strategy of truth telling.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 08:38:41 am
Quote from: serr on July 15, 2014, 08:21:20 am
Last thing I heard from russian media was their interview several days ago with some refugee from Sloviansk who told that ukrainian soldiers gathered local residents on main square, crucified small boy like Jesus so he suffered from pain for two hours until he finally died, then tied his mother to tank and dragged her around the square 3 times.
And that's not some non-mainstream conspirology resource you love, that's "mainstream" russian media.
I'm really impressed of their strategy of truth telling.
first channel interviewed a resident of Ukraine .. now you see how corrupt / deceitful Ukrainians (choose one you like more) xnxnxnxnxnxnxnxn
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2014, 09:27:34 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 08:38:41 am
first channel interviewed a resident of Ukraine .. now you see how corrupt / deceitful Ukrainians (choose one you like more) xnxnxnxnxnxnxnxn
I think those were the actors hired by putler. Will they get medals like the "journos" "documenting" Crimea annexation?

Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 06:49:20 am
This video is a pretty good description of the situation.
It's not a question of blindly trust russian media.Even under Kremlin influence  they are actually in a strategy of truth telling, wich is very interesting. Not because they suddenly love the truth but because this is the only strategy to counter the US soft power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power).
Dude... I dont even... ok, nvm. I already offered some tinfoil, you didn't need it.
Le BUTAN - would you still consider this "thinking properly"?

Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 06:49:20 am
About economical situation in eastern Europa. You must think in long term. In the past, Russia was ruined, and has no capacity to help anybody. Now, with oil benefits, they have no more debts and his economy will rise in the next decades. Because mineral ressources will become rare and expensive, EU will face big problems.
Lets see - how many natural resource rich countries, which do not produce much else, do you know which you would call a "success story" on a comparative level to say... Germany? I maintain, that there are none. And the reason, which most people who "study geopolitic since many years" know and understand, is that if you do not create added value from the minerals you extract - you are a nation of miners. In this light - ONLY the mining sector may live well and this is not enough to sustain everyone else. Look at Japan for example - MINIMAL natural resources - yet one of the countries with IMMENSE intelectual and technological potential + comparatively HUGE economy (addmittedly - currently in sociological crisis due to ageing, but I believe these problems are solvable, when you have a good head of state instead of a greedy-corrupt head of state).

24 years ago baltic states and Poland and number of others looked "in the long term" and threw their lot in with the EU and NATO. Belorussia, Ukraine, Moldova, number of others - did not. Which of them are better of after these 24 years? Funny shit is - EVEN with the ridiculous prices of natural resources sold to the former SU countries - they STILL manage to grow and develop far better than the heavily subsidized Ukraine and Belorussia had. What the fuck did you do during your "study geopolitic since many years" time to miss this?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 09:50:57 am
actor, but Ukrainian (Galina Ostapenko, of her husband's surname Pushnyak, 1975 birth, born  Soimy Mizhgirya district, Transcarpathian region) there is alot mad people and media (and russian and ua media) use heir mad stories

i loled
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 15, 2014, 09:55:57 am
Quote from: Chosen1 on July 15, 2014, 03:17:43 am
(click to show/hide)
Its quite easy to blame USA and Illuminate for a lot of misfortunes cause the 2 work in the shadows, so a lot of times people tend to give them lot more credit than they deserve.

Quote from: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 08:38:41 am
first channel interviewed a resident of Ukraine .. now you see how corrupt / deceitful Ukrainians (choose one you like more) xnxnxnxnxnxnxnxn
To be fair even quite many russian officials stated that claim as utter bullshit and this time just going to far with the lying.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2014, 11:34:20 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 06:49:20 am
About economical situation in eastern Europa. You must think in long term. In the past, Russia was ruined, and has no capacity to help anybody. Now, with oil benefits, they have no more debts and his economy will rise in the next decades. Because mineral ressources will become rare and expensive, EU will face big problems.

My friend, each time I read your posts I actually get more and more convinced that you're not competent in anything you speak about. You know, you look like a religious fanatic who has a very specific point of view (read as "retarded") and claims that he came to this POV because all the other are wrong (read as "didn't get" or "doesn't know"). Russia always had these oil benefits, even USSR's economy was mostly supported by oil. And also you don't know what debts mean and why they exist in macroeconomy. You also don't know that actual people have no benefits of this oil as money simply flow away from Russia to your hated oligarchs who don't really like spending money in Russia. "Oil benefits"... the price of petrol in Russia is the same or even a little bit higher than in US, and the quality of this petrol is lower than in any country of EU or US. What are you talking about? Have you ever been to Russia or any other post-soviet country? Just curious. For instance, I guess that Putin's daughters spent more time abroad than in Russia in their life and they live in Germany IIRC.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2014, 11:49:14 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 09:50:57 am
actor, but Ukrainian (Galina Ostapenko, of her husband's surname Pushnyak, 1975 birth, born  Soimy Mizhgirya district, Transcarpathian region) there is alot mad people and media (and russian and ua media) use heir mad stories

i loled
Fixed video link for you like a BAUS  8-)

Also - what did you want to say with the video? That the idiots spilling more fuel into the fire are idiots? :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 02:48:05 pm
http://inforesist.org/en/at-night-from-12-to-13-of-july-the-ato-forces-managed-to-prevent-entry-of-russian-troops-in-ukraine/

mighty ukrain army  defeated russian army.. oh noes (((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 15, 2014, 03:02:34 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 02:48:05 pm
http://inforesist.org/en/at-night-from-12-to-13-of-july-the-ato-forces-managed-to-prevent-entry-of-russian-troops-in-ukraine/
mighty ukrain army  defeated russian army.. oh noes (((
Cant russian armies just sit the fuck down and drink vodka? How bloody hard is it to not invade shit? Seriuslly....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 03:13:00 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 15, 2014, 03:02:34 pm
Cant russian armies just sit the fuck down and drink vodka? How bloody hard is it to not invade shit? Seriuslly....
read more.... russia also shoot down some airplans and shelling ukrain cities.... bloody putin lost his mind ((((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2014, 04:08:11 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 03:13:00 pm
read more.... russia also shoot down some airplans and shelling ukrain cities.... bloody putin lost his mind ((((
Well... He is known for doing this in the past... not much surprise here. Unless ofc you mean he actually decided to skip riding bears and fire some gun himself? That would be something new and on the level or "Pervyj Kanal"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 15, 2014, 07:05:38 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2014, 08:06:12 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 06:49:20 am
This video is a pretty good description of the situation.
It's not a question of blindly trust russian media.Even under Kremlin influence  they are actually in a strategy of truth telling, wich is very interesting. Not because they suddenly love the truth but because this is the only strategy to counter the US soft power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power).
"According to the 2013 Monocle Soft Power Survey, Germany currently holds the top spot in soft power."

You mean counter Germany??? omg germany NWO controls everything behind every rebellion ever putin plz save us from garmany with ur truth tellin
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
It's because you look in the past. When energy was cheap and the West had a good technology advance.
All the advanced countries, except Germany, are in decline and under tons of debts. Russia and China increase their military power while NATO countries cut into their expenses (and it's a part of the US action in Ukraine).
In theory, any country can reach an high level of education (look at Cuba, China, India), It's just a question of time. But it's more difficult to access natural ressources, except by an imperial policy.
Without the dollar and military supremacy that it provide, the West will suffer a big depression and will loose its hegemony over the world. It's a slow processus but it has begun.

You want some exemple of countries rising with oil ? Qatar.
But too many countries have lost the control of their mineral wealth. That's why it's necessary to fight colonialism and imperialism for them. Lybia and Iraq were pretty prosperous before being destroyed by the "army of Freedom".

You think like a 19th century westerner : " look the way live those savages, isn't a proof we are the superior race ?"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2014, 10:51:31 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 10:16:04 pm
You think like a 19th century westerner

And you think like a 700,000 BC Java Man. And by saying it I prove it. Professor of geopolitics Tovi  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 10:55:04 pm
In fact you talk like a 10 years old kid.

Did you liked our western propaganda ?

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Back to serious things :

Concentration camps in Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w3PfYy1AOs



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2014, 11:00:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 10:55:04 pm
In fact you talk like a 10 years old kid.

Did you liked our western propaganda ?

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Back to serious things :

Concentration camps in Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w3PfYy1AOs

Yes, I do like western propaganda. At least they know what "junta" means. Concentration camps in Ukraine and central Russian TV channel  :lol: I can't argue with you because I would really feel myself retarded if I try it. I'd rather talk about something else. Tovi why did you evade questions? Have you ever been to any of post-soviet countries?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 11:18:58 pm
Yes, I did. So what ?

Your only argument is " I did not see this on my favorite TV channel , so it's bullshit". It's a bit short... But can you give any information about ukrainian events ? Do you really feel intelligent to just insult people and never have something relevant to say ?
Seriously, when I read most of you, you really look brainwashed with anti-russian racist reactions. You know, nazees were not different : " ppff, that's jewish art/ jewish books, jewish music etc., just burn it".
The same stupid racism with french people, presumed coward (I don't even know why).
I'm really not impressed by all these insults.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 16, 2014, 01:44:50 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 11:18:58 pm
Yes, I did. So what ?

Where have you been and when?

Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 11:18:58 pm
Seriously, when I read most of you, you really look brainwashed with anti-russian racist reactions.

I'm Russian myself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 16, 2014, 05:28:51 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 11:18:58 pm
Yes, I did. So what ?

Your only argument is " I did not see this on my favorite TV channel , so it's bullshit". It's a bit short... But can you give any information about ukrainian events ? Do you really feel intelligent to just insult people and never have something relevant to say ?
Seriously, when I read most of you, you really look brainwashed with anti-russian racist reactions. You know, nazees were not different : " ppff, that's jewish art/ jewish books, jewish music etc., just burn it".
The same stupid racism with french people, presumed coward (I don't even know why).
I'm really not impressed by all these insults.
Comparing Russians to jews, well done Tovi an excellent analogy there
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 16, 2014, 07:40:13 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 15, 2014, 11:18:58 pm
Your only argument is...
We actually have shitton of arguments but you are so stupid that you give utterly retarded counterarguments. Man I am fucking telling you, you speak exactly like some central european tinfoilconspiracytheorist who never even managed to crawl out of his own basement and doesnt really know anything about the world but so bluntly assumes he does. You have no actual inside understanding on any of this. You misunderstand absolutely everything. You totally deny the completely oblivious and accept the barely plausible things. I dont belive you studied geopolitics, because nobody teaches shit like that.

Im quite sure you are trolling or conducting an experiment on how people react to certain political claims, cause theres just no way in hell you belive this garbage you post.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2014, 09:13:18 am
Quote from: Tibe on July 16, 2014, 07:40:13 am
We actually have shitton of arguments but you are so stupid that you give utterly retarded counterarguments. Man I am fucking telling you, you speak exactly like some central european tinfoilconspiracytheorist who never even managed to crawl out of his own basement and doesnt really know anything about the world but so bluntly assumes he does. You have no actual inside understanding on any of this. You misunderstand absolutely everything. You totally deny the completely oblivious and accept the barely plausible things. I dont belive you studied geopolitics, because nobody teaches shit like that.

Im quite sure you are trolling or conducting an experiment on how people react to certain political claims, cause theres just no way in hell you belive this garbage you post.
OMG I can say the same about all of people who writes something here, the same about me. Druzhina_Anhy is one of "separatist" in Kharkov. He says that there are a lot of people who is ready to war but there is no weapon to, and if Russia will really send weapons then it will be a war. Not my words and this not TV.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 16, 2014, 10:24:18 am
Quote
Druzhina_Anhy is one of "separatist" in Kharkov. He says that there are a lot of people who is ready to war but there is no weapon to, and if Russia will really send weapons then it will be a war.

Did he say why?
I'm just curious, I really don't understand why would people want to bring war to their own homes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 16, 2014, 10:26:33 am
Especially after the latest pressure by the army.

Oh well, maybe he didn't want to say "I'm peeing my pants when I think about what's to come next? :?"
Understandable and even seems more likely :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 16, 2014, 10:28:01 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 16, 2014, 09:13:18 am
OMG I can say the same about all of people who writes something here, the same about me. Druzhina_Anhy is one of "separatist" in Kharkov. He says that there are a lot of people who is ready to war but there is no weapon to, and if Russia will really send weapons then it will be a war. Not my words and this not TV.
I dont think you understood some of the things I wrote Nicko. Cause your reply wasnt....well a reply to my post.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2014, 12:07:26 pm
Quote from: serr on July 16, 2014, 10:24:18 am
Did he say why?
I'm just curious, I really don't understand why would people want to bring war to their own homes.
Well the same things that russian propoganda says, but if you want you can catch him on TS, but I didn't see him for a long time.

Quote from: Tibe on July 16, 2014, 10:28:01 am
I dont think you understood some of the things I wrote Nicko. Cause your reply wasnt....well a reply to my post.

No you cant say that about all the people here. Sure im quessing everyone has their own understanding of things but a fucking line has to be drawn somewhere. Tovi's bullshit is basically garbage that makes me personally feel a bit uncomfortable. Cause that garbage is dangerous when its in the minds of many people. Pretty much voters similar to the mindset of Tovi's is the reason why Russian goverment is so retarded. He is illinformed, isnt aware of it and completely paranoid which leads him to make dumb choices in the votingbooth. That fear of that "scary western puppetmaster" leads him to choose even a far more worse puppetmaster who uses a lot more strings.
For Tovi and many others what you are writing is bullshit too and makes feels a bit uncomfortable. It makes me laugh when people discuss smth saying this is absolutely truth. I like to watch both sources, both western propoganda and russian propoganda show each other in bad colors. And when people try to say russian propoganda is bullshit, others say western propoganda is bullshit and try to accuse each other in mental deficiency is not smart in my opinion. I don't know the real sittuation, but I think there are retard actions from both sides and see only one side is not smart.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 16, 2014, 12:13:28 pm
I didnt say it was absolute truth. I ment that there has to be a line. Like I said before its cool that people have opinions. But when someone starts going completely bananas and stating things like "USA has UFO technology that they use to turns all people of russian nationality into irish leprechauns secretly" than its kinda oblivious this is bullshit. I argued with a lot of you, but I never entirely discredited you. Just Tovi. Cause tovi's claims are tinfoilhatconspiracystuff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2014, 12:37:14 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 16, 2014, 12:13:28 pm
I didnt say it was absolute truth. I ment that there has to be a line. Like I said before its cool that people have opinions. But when someone starts going completely bananas and stating things like "USA has UFO technology that they use to turns all people of russian nationality into irish leprechauns secretly" than its kinda oblivious this is bullshit. I argued with a lot of you, but I never entirely discredited you. Just Tovi. Cause tovi's claims are tinfoilhatconspiracystuff.
I don't believe it too, but I cant prove that this is not true. So some bananas can be true some not. Snowden showed that USA listened all phone talks of senior officials. Is it banana or not? German caught a spy who sold info to USA, well this is not banana. USA had a part in all wars last years. Banana or not? So some things are happening, I think Russia also has a spies. So discussion about this has no clue.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 16, 2014, 07:05:06 pm
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVPYbobPRzz0SjinWekjUBw
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2014, 08:32:56 pm
Quote from: serr on July 15, 2014, 08:21:20 am
You get +1 from me for this :D

Last thing I heard from russian media was their interview several days ago with some refugee from Sloviansk who told that ukrainian soldiers gathered local residents on main square, crucified small boy like Jesus so he suffered from pain for two hours until he finally died, then tied his mother to tank and dragged her around the square 3 times.

And that's not some non-mainstream conspirology resource you love, that's "mainstream" russian media.

I'm really impressed of their strategy of truth telling.
Lol this is shame to "Pervij kanal" that they didn't check the information. This sounds even for russians like a fake, even my grandma don't believe this bulshit. It's all about money.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on July 17, 2014, 12:14:12 am
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.ca/2014/07/russian-grad-firing-from-russian-soil.html

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 01:12:42 am
Quote from: Chosen1 on July 17, 2014, 12:14:12 am
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.ca/2014/07/russian-grad-firing-from-russian-soil.html
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got this awesome picture today from several sourse
Red circle = approximate location of GRAD rocket launchers.
Blue line = line of sight to position of GRADs
Blue icon spoted russian military vehicle
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 05:08:16 am
Quote from: Chosen1 on July 17, 2014, 12:14:12 am
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.ca/2014/07/russian-grad-firing-from-russian-soil.html

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Can't understand why people post this fakes, to troll or they believe in it. Learn Geography. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 17, 2014, 06:27:12 am
Quote
HORLIVKA (DONETSK REGION), July 16 (RIA Novosti) – Foreign contractors are fighting against independence supporters in the southeast of Ukraine, Horlivka’s self-defense militia leader Ihor Bezler said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

Answering the question on whether there are foreigners fighting against independence supporters, Bezler said, “Of course.”

“During the offensive on Artemovsk we removed a mark of the French Foreign Legion from the body of a killed soldier. He did not look at all like a Slav. He was an Arab,” Bezler said.

According to him, “a group that fought in Semenovka, the famous battle of ‘450 against 30’ [independence supporters] – we heard English spoken there; they used foreign weapons.” Self-defense militia also said that they seized submachine guns not used by the Ukrainian military.

Kiev authorities launched a special operation against independence supporters in the southeast of Ukraine. Moscow had labeled the move, which already led to numerous casualties, as a punitive act and urged Kiev to stop the bloodshed. Following referendums held in May, Donetsk and Luhansk the regions declared themselves independent people’s republics. In response, the Ukrainian government intensified attacks against the independence supporters on the Russian-Ukrainian border.

Authorities of the People’s Republic of Donetsk have repeatedly stated that there is evidence of Kiev’s engaging foreign contractors for its special operation in the southeast. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov also suggested that Western, in particular US contractors, might be operating in Ukraine.

2 days ago, 2 planes have been shot down by separatists (Novorossia forces). A Su-25 and a An-26 in the Donbass.
4000 Kiev soldiers are surrounded by separatists, close to the russian border and they could lake of aviation support.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 07:34:32 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 17, 2014, 06:27:12 am
2 days ago, 2 planes have been shot down by separatists (Novorossia forces). A Su-25 and a An-26 in the Donbass.
4000 Kiev soldiers are surrounded by separatists, close to the russian border and they could lake of aviation support.
Kiev claim that An-26 shot down by Russian air defense  :P Also such settlements as "Snezhnoe", not bombed by Ukrainians but Russians XD

btw video with GRAD near Gukovo looks like real but its hard to say how far Grad from guy who shooted dat video (there is atleast 2 differend video with same volley of missiles)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 17, 2014, 08:14:39 am
Quote
Can't understand why people post this fakes, to troll or they believe in it. Learn Geography. :lol:

Could you please explain why is it fake? I don't state it is not, indeed I don't know geography of that region, but I'd like to hear your thoughts why are you so sure it is fake.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 08:33:13 am
Quote from: serr on July 17, 2014, 08:14:39 am
Could you please explain why is it fake? I don't state it is not, indeed I don't know geography of that region, but I'd like to hear your thoughts why are you so sure it is fake.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 09:51:29 am
Quote from: serr on July 17, 2014, 08:14:39 am
Could you please explain why is it fake? I don't state it is not, indeed I don't know geography of that region, but I'd like to hear your thoughts why are you so sure it is fake.
Well today from my granma I heard that our neighbor travelled to Belgrad he sells armoured KAMAZes and some bombs dropped near them from Ukraine and commander of military part said to bomb back. So maybe it is not fake. But from video cant see where exactly they bombed to. Also from this place to the border of Ukraine is about 4 km.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 01:58:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 17, 2014, 06:27:12 am
2 days ago, 2 planes have been shot down by separatists (Novorossia forces). A Su-25 and a An-26 in the Donbass.
4000 Kiev soldiers are surrounded by separatists, close to the russian border and they could lake of aviation support.

Tovi, why do you keep evading questions? Where and when have you been to postsoviet countries?

Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 09:51:29 am
Well today from my granma I heard that our neighbor travelled to Belgrad he sells armoured KAMAZes and some bombs dropped near them from Ukraine and commander of military part said to bomb back. So maybe it is not fake. But from video cant see where exactly they bombed to. Also from this place to the border of Ukraine is about 4 km.

4km is approximately the minimal range of Grad. So it sounds logical.

Quote from: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 08:33:13 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 02:56:02 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 01:58:44 pm
Tovi, why do you keep evading questions? Where and when have you been to postsoviet countries?

4km is approximately the minimal range of Grad. So it sounds logical.
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Dave don't you see how many propoganda against Russia on Ukranian TV? Yes seems logical but there is no only one part of logical picture, the place where this bombs fell
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 17, 2014, 03:14:47 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 17, 2014, 06:27:12 am
2 days ago, 2 planes have been shot down by separatists (Novorossia forces). A Su-25 and a An-26 in the Donbass.
4000 Kiev soldiers are surrounded by separatists, close to the russian border and they could lake of aviation support.
Quote
[...]By a Presidential decree of the Russian president dated August 22, 1991, RIA Novosti was placed within the competence of the Press and Information Ministry.[...]
[...]By a decree of the Russian president, "On Improving the Work of the State Electronic Media," the VGTRK information holding was created in May 1998, which RIA Novosti joined.[...]
mmhkay...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 03:32:51 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 02:56:02 pm
Dave don't you see how many propoganda against Russia on Ukranian TV? Yes seems logical but there is no only one part of logical picture, the place where this bombs fell

I see it and I clearly understand that it's all exaggerated. But on the other hand there is no doubt that Russia takes an active part in all this. I just don't understand why people try so hard not to accept this. I mean that your country follows its own interests, Crimea is the area of interest same with the half of Ukraine. Why refusing it? It looks just pathetic to refuse obvious things especially if you reveal some parts of truth months later (like it was with Crimea when Putin occasionally confessed about Russian military forces).

I also personally know military people who suffered the consequences of this fire. There are a lot of victims of these Grads actually (maybe not these particularly, but in general), I can't say the exact number but it's dozens of Ukrainian militarists at least.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 03:35:11 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 17, 2014, 06:27:12 am
2 days ago, 2 planes have been shot down by separatists (Novorossia forces). A Su-25 and a An-26 in the Donbass.
4000 Kiev soldiers are surrounded by separatists, close to the russian border and they could lake of aviation support.
Lol. Im quessing this is your source:
http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php?/topic/253802-3000-kiev-ziofascists-surrounded-then-slaughtered-along-the-russian-border-2-were-able-to-escape-freedom-fighters-r-using-captured-su-25s-with-deadl/
jesus fucking christ. What a load of bullshit. Lol that second video. #Donbassagainstchocolate chip cookie. Honestly tovi. How can you belive this bullshit? Do you not know that Russia uses the term "chocolate chip cookie" and "fascist" more loosely then america uses "terrorist". If you stole milk from a russians refrigerator they will instantly think your last name must be Hit ler. Honestly there no proof of any of this. I mean common. "they use chemical weapons", "they shoot hospitals and crucify children", "we are freedomfighters", "they want to drag russia into war", "they are fascist chocolate chip cookies and we are all that is stopping them". I mean common. Listen to this. Doesnt this sound a bit much to you? This is so over the top. Not even Ukrainians go that far with their propaganda, West even less. I mean this is utterly childish. Why do people believe this crap?

Also the problem with Russian "peacekeepers" is always that whenever order is restored they never leave, or leave very slowly.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 03:46:24 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 03:32:51 pm
I see it and I clearly understand that it's all exaggerated. But on the other hand there is no doubt that Russia takes an active part in all this. I just don't understand why people try so hard not to accept this. I mean that your country follows its own interests, Crimea is the area of interest same with the half of Ukraine. Why refusing it? It looks just pathetic to refuse obvious things especially if you reveal some parts of truth months later (like it was with Crimea when Putin occasionally confessed about Russian military forces).

I also personally know military people who suffered the consequences of this fire. There are a lot of victims of these Grads actually (maybe not these particularly, but in general), I can't say the exact number but it's dozens of Ukrainian militarists at least.
Agree with you, then question why Poroshenko doesn't want to stop this stupid war?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 03:49:02 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 03:35:11 pm
Lol. Im quessing this is your source:
http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php?/topic/253802-3000-kiev-ziofascists-surrounded-then-slaughtered-along-the-russian-border-2-were-able-to-escape-freedom-fighters-r-using-captured-su-25s-with-deadl/
jesus fucking christ. What a load of bullshit. Lol that second video. #Donbassagainstchocolate chip cookie. Honestly tovi. How can you belive this bullshit?
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Not sure if its the truth, but except for the use of Kiev Ziofascists in the title (which is about the same courtesy you guys with the "Putlers" and the "russian terrorists" are coming from), the article is just calmy summing up a situation where they believe a part of the Ukrainian army is losing a current battle (trying to make it sound it will be an epic victory for the independance movement, propaganda too, ofc).

If you were not a deadbeat support of whatever isnt Russia, I would say you're being mad because someone says Kiev is not doing well? If you dont want to believe it, fine, but its not more bullshit than the GRAD bombardment thingie.


Quote
Do you not know that Russia uses the term "chocolate chip cookie" and "fascist" more loosely then america uses "terrorist". If you stole milk from a russians refrigerator they will instantly think your last name must be Hit ler. Honestly there no proof of any of this. I mean common. "they use chemical weapons", "they shoot hospitals and crucify children", "we are freedomfighters", "they want to drag russia into war", "they are fascist chocolate chip cookies and we are all that is stopping them". I mean common. Listen to this. Doesnt this sound a bit much to you? This is so over the top. Not even Ukrainians go that far with their propaganda, West even less. I mean this is utterly childish. Why do people believe this crap?

Gotta say that some claims are completely fubar. Eastern propaganda is a notch above western one in the over-the-top-ness  :lol:


Quote
Also the problem with Russian "peacekeepers" is always that whenever order is restored they never leave, or leave very slowly.

Dont know where you're coming from with peacekeepers? 'Till now, the insurgents have been calling for Russia help for a long time but nothing came (except ghosts of the red army and mercenaries).
And if they did came, they would of course never leave, I remind you that most of the rebels are fighting to join Russia...



Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 03:46:24 pm
Agree with you, then question why Poroshenko doesn't want to stop this stupid war?

Poroshenko rhetoric at its best : got elected to have peace, but peace comes at the price of total war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 03:51:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 03:46:24 pm
Agree with you, then question why Poroshenko doesn't want to stop this stupid war?

The only way to stop this war is to let half of Ukraine to join Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 03:53:08 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 03:51:26 pm
The only way to stop this war is to let half of Ukraine to join Russia.

And to stop Maidan, the whole of Ukraine had to join Europe...



Everything stems from this madness.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 03:58:08 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 03:51:26 pm
The only way to stop this war is to let half of Ukraine to join Russia.
I think no, using military forces and bombing  cities is not the way. More people on the East Ukraine start to hate new authorities. As I remember Poroshenko said that he will stop this war and visit the East to contact with opposite side. Putin is not so dumb to take another part of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 04:03:37 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 17, 2014, 03:53:08 pm
And to stop Maidan, the whole of Ukraine had to join Europe...



Everything stems from this madness.

Here we go again.
Well, Ukraine is already in Europe. You probably meant EU and joining EU doesn't mean that Ukraine stops existing on the map. Also EU is not a government. You can't fucking compare joining and organization and destroying a fucking country to join the other country.

If you really think that the plan to annex territories popped up since Maydan then you must have really short memory. Do you remember how it all started on the east?
"We want more freedom, we are Ukrainians who want more power in our region" -> "We want federalization, we don't want Kiev to have all the power" -> "Nаzi Kiev and fascists from Right Sector, we want to be independent, glory to DNR/LNR" -> "We want to join Russia, Russia is the last safe place in this world" -> "Fuck Ukrainians, glory to Russia".

Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 03:58:08 pm
I think no, using military forces and bombing  cities is not the way. More people on the East Ukraine start to hate new authorities. As I remember Poroshenko said that he will stop this war and visit the East to contact with opposite side. Putin is not so dumb to take another part of Ukraine.

He is not dumb, Crimea will be almost impossible to handle without eastern parts of Ukraine. If you stop the ATO - they will try to join Russia one more time (they failed once if you remember).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:06:06 pm
Butan I didnt say that russian "peacekeepers" were inside Ukraine. I was stating what has pretty much happened in the past. Russia annexes everything it "saves". They have been trying to get permission from the EU to send their "peacekeepers" in, but for very oblivious reasons they say no. But from what ive gathered they are seriuslly eager to get in there. This Ukraininan terroristoperation has to be completed soon. Russia cant hold back its natural invadinginstinct anymore.

Quote from: Butan on July 17, 2014, 03:53:08 pm
And to stop Maidan, the whole of Ukraine had to join Europe...
Yea, lets split a country in half. What a good idea! Lets tell one side that the other one is full of violent chocolate chip cookies and they have no other choice but to fight and give random bulky assed guys heavy weaponry. This is definately the best way to split a country. What you think these fullyarmed masked guys in green bulletproofvests who rob banks and cardealerships are gonna just lay down their arms and relax once Ukraine leaves them alone and lets them join russia peacefully? Dont be so naive.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 04:06:24 pm
All I need to remember, is that before Maidan, Ukraine could choose between Europe and Russia. Now it is solely a European client, for political reasons.
Another country for the russian haters to add a wall to.

Surely, such a world changing event must have had consequences? You dont think it is related to what happened the days after Maidan ended?...

If you were a ethnic russian living in Ukraine for the past century, maybe you would feel slightly different, living in a country which has become something else without any of their choosing. About the same thing when Crimea got handed to Ukraine a long time ago...
Sorry if I remind you of what was said a few other times in this post, but its good to remember why people are fighting in Ukraine, and whats the background of it.



Quote from: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:06:06 pm
Yea, lets split a country in half. What a good idea! Lets tell one side that the other one is full of violent chocolate chip cookies and they have no other choice but to fight and give random bulky assed guys heavy weaponry. This is definately the best way to split a country. What you think these fullyarmed masked guys in green bulletproofvests who rob banks and cardealerships are gonna just lay down their arms and relax once Ukraine leaves them alone and lets them join russia peacefully? Dont be so naive.

And a country which does not split, but have its government firmly in the hands of ethnic Ukrainian Europe-loving , repressing ethnic Russian Russia-loving, is best?

The part on the fully armed masked guys is very funny, knowing that after Maidan success, many of the guys who were behind it went on to join militias and do robbery/sacking/murders in most of western/center Ukraine.
Ukraine government had to fight them and killed a few, mostly the least appreciable extreme right wing of them, but the country is still partly "under control" of civilians with poor ethics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:11:05 pm
You know you wouldnt be so pro-russian yourself if you knew the facts. The reason why a lot of people are russian haters is totally Russias own fault. Its foreignpolicy towards its neibhours has always been very hostile.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 17, 2014, 04:14:28 pm
I remember that nobody could choose cuz Russia was blackmailing the Ukraine to not join the EU with oil prices.
But let's overlook that conveniently, right Butan?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 04:16:17 pm
Quote from: Molly on July 17, 2014, 04:14:28 pm
I remember that nobody could choose cuz Russia was blackmailing the Ukraine to not join the EU with oil prices.
But let's overlook that conveniently, right Butan?

Could be these were offers "they could not refuse", but you cant deny they were largely better offers than EU ones, economically.
Even after Maidan success, what the European union and major actors of the western world offered to Ukraine, was very weak in comparison to what they had with Russia.

To the price of being politically closer to Russia? One could say so.
Now in exchange of "an illusion of a choice", the Ukraine has nothing anymore, officially, and to add it all up, the choice sucks.


Quote from: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:11:05 pm
You know you wouldnt be so pro-russian yourself if you knew the facts. The reason why a lot of people are russian haters is totally Russias own fault. Its foreignpolicy towards its neibhours has always been very hostile.

Sorry to not have had your personal experience on the matter of "russia is bad mkay".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 04:17:39 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 04:03:37 pm

If you really think that the plan to annex territories popped up since Maydan then you must have really short memory. Do you remember how it all started on the east?
"We want more freedom, we are Ukrainians who want more power in our region" -> "We want federalization, we don't want Kiev to have all the power" -> "Nаzi Kiev and fascists from Right Sector, we want to be independent, glory to DNR/LNR" -> "We want to join Russia, Russia is the last safe place in this world" -> "Fuck Ukrainians, glory to Russia".

He is not dumb, Crimea will be almost impossible to handle without eastern parts of Ukraine. If you stop the ATO - they will try to join Russia one more time (they failed once if you remember).
Maybe they will, so it's better to make this votes by Ukranian authorities, as I know Kiev says that there is only few terrorists and all others want to stay in Ukraine and this ATO is to save people from tyranny of russian terrorists. If Kiev so sure in their opinion then let they stop this war make an elections. Everybody will be happy. Then falsificate results if neccesary and that's all. I think there is a lot of diplomatic variants to solve this problem, I haven't seen none. I hear only how Russia is bad that all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:21:49 pm
Their choice sux cause Russia made is suck. It was "pick me or I break legs" kind of deal. Way to support blackmailers Butan. How fucking hard would it have been for Russia to just deal with it? Infact if they had dealt with it like grownups instead of barbarians like they usually are, they would have won a lot of stars with EU, Ukraine would have gained a lot, Europe would have gained aswell. Instead they acted like assholes and fucked Ukr up for getting too friendly with the other side.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 04:25:25 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:21:49 pm
Their choice sux cause Russia made is suck. It was "pick me or I break legs" kind of deal. Way to support blackmailers Butan. How fucking hard would it have been for Russia to just deal with it? Infact if they had dealt with it like grownups instead of barbarians like they usually are, they would have won a lot of stars with EU, Ukraine would have gained a lot, Europe would have gained aswell. Instead they acted like assholes and fucked Ukr up for getting too friendly with the other side.

I would direct you to the section of "economical war" and "what happens to economical relationship when a country changes to a non-friendly government".

You would read a lot on countries which does not have the name "Russia" and would probably begin to shut the hell up about how Russias are the only one being completely cynical and willing to passively destroy countries which arent with them, and use them up as slaves when they are with them.

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Basically, you're supporting the blackmailers from your political side, while I just say who was the best blackmailer of them.
I'm not going to naively say "no to blackmail!" I'm a bit too cynical myself to proclaim that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:35:17 pm
If russia hadnt dicked the newly created goverment, mybe they wouldnt have been so non-friendly. And Europe destroys countries that arent with them? Woot? This isnt the colonial age anymore. The British and the French empire dont exsist anymore. Europe doesnt do jackshit outside of its own borders exept occasionally support USA in its stupid crusades, but that just about it. USA yes does destroy countries that arent with them. Thats kinda oblivious. And even if Ukraine had chosen to stay with Russia, obliviously EU nor USA would have never tried to rip Ukr to shreads, raise prices or straightup ban Ukr goods. Unlike Russia, EU doesnt play it that way and doesnt hold grudges.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 04:45:48 pm
Quote
If russia hadnt dicked the newly created goverment, mybe they wouldnt have been so non-friendly.

Thats childish: both reacted negatively, with reasons. I'm not going to debate on which fired first when its obvious they both had the intent to not be friends from the get go...



On the economical prospects, I just have to say this: Rendez vous in 5-10 years to ask Ukrainians how is life in Europe.

By then, we will have all moved on with our lives, and this topic will be forgotten; I dare hope some will remember of it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:57:42 pm
Life in Europe would be swell if Russia left them alone. Obliviously it will never happen. Russia will dick Ukraine forever for its disobedience to its supreme rule. Take it from a person of a country that used to be part of Russia once. They will definately be bitter about it for a veeeery long time. I mean they are still quite bitter about us, they still economically screw us for no reason and call us fascists for no reason. We havent got a single extremist even close to the goverment btw. Cant imagine what they have instored for Ukraine. I mean we are small and we were never that dependant on Russia anyway, so their dicking does little damage to us. But Ukraine is screwed for reals.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 17, 2014, 05:50:51 pm
A malaysian flight with 300 people on board apparently crashed in Ukraine. Reason unknown atm.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on July 17, 2014, 05:54:46 pm
Not sure of the truth of this:
Anton Herashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying the plane had been hit by a missile at an altitude of 10,000m (33,000ft).

But certainly suspect.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 17, 2014, 05:57:30 pm
Well, this thread hasn't progressed anywhere in the last hundred pages or so.

Also, i cringe every time you say "oblivious", Tibe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 06:02:08 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 17, 2014, 05:50:51 pm
Reason unknown atm.
broken conditioner
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 17, 2014, 06:02:43 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 17, 2014, 05:50:51 pm
A malaysian flight with 300 people on board apparently crashed in Ukraine. Reason unknown atm.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

Looks like someone got their civilian and military aircraft mixed up. This is pretty bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 06:16:49 pm
Quote
Reports suggest that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile called a BUK.
Just interesting how fast they found that this was BUK. Again russian missile
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 06:19:24 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 17, 2014, 05:57:30 pm
Well, this thread hasn't progressed anywhere in the last hundred pages or so.

Also, i cringe every time you say "oblivious", Tibe.

Wy noone told mi dis befor?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 17, 2014, 06:25:42 pm
I actually did, but you ignored it :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:27:08 pm
Igor "Strekov" Girkin, the leader of separatists, starts bragging about how they destroyed Ukrainian military cargo aircraft An-26 at the height above 7km. Turns out it was Malaysian Boeing-777. 285 victims. Tragedy, feel sorry for all the dead people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on July 17, 2014, 06:31:01 pm
Can't wait to hear Tovi's theory on why the airplane was shot down.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 06:34:31 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:27:08 pm
Igor "Strekov" Girkin, the leader of separatists, starts bragging about how they destroyed Ukrainian military cargo aircraft An-26 at the height above 7km. Turns out it was Malaysian Boeing-777. 285 victims. Tragedy, feel sorry for all the dead people.
Dave show me the video please. I found only that separatists shot AN-26 on 14 July and Boing crashed today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:38:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 06:34:31 pm
Dave show me the video please. I found only that separatists shot AN-26 on 14 July and Boing crashed today.

There is no video of Girkin with these words. It's a message from his own group with 150k of subscribers. http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7247
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Here's video of the plane crash.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 17, 2014, 06:48:54 pm
Note to self, don't fly on a Malaysian Airlines aircraft any time in the near future.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 06:49:15 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:38:19 pm
There is no video of Girkin with these words. It's a message from his own group with 150k of subscribers.
If they really shot the boing then they are so dumb and need to be arrested
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:51:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 06:49:15 pm
If they really shot the boing then they are so dumb and need to be arrested

Yes, because shooting Ukrainians with Grads and AKs is not enough to be arrested :D I think that they didn't want to shoot that plane, most likely they just thought that is was Ukrainian military airplane.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on July 17, 2014, 06:51:46 pm
major fskup shooting down a civilian plane. This will get international reactions.
Ukranian authorities must be overjoyed tho, makes the seperatists look like dangerous clowns.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 06:54:30 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:51:28 pm
Yes, because shooting Ukrainians with Grads and AKs is not enough to be arrested :D I think that they didn't want to shoot that plane, most likely they just thought that is was Ukrainian military airplane.
About first they kill each other. If you can prove other then prove it, about second that was civilians and that was really retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 06:56:32 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on July 17, 2014, 06:31:01 pm
Can't wait to hear Tovi's theory on why the airplane was shot down.
Plane was planted in the air by USA CIA, than shot down by US seal team 7 and blamed separatists. No other explanation possible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:57:08 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 06:54:30 pm
About first they kill each other. If you can prove other then prove it, about second that was civilians and that was really retard.

What do you mean "each other". Who cares whom they kill, they kill and it's the fact? :rolleyes: At least their leader is not a citizen of Ukraine, but actually a citizen of Russia, colonel of FSB, that should mean something.

Oh shit. Inb4 Panos asks to start "full assault" on Ukraine.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 07:00:27 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:57:08 pm
What do you mean "each other". Who cares whom they kill, they kill and it's the fact? :rolleyes: At least their leader is not a citizen of Ukraine, but actually a citizen of Russia, colonel of FSB, that should mean something.

Oh shit. Inb4 Panos asks to start "full assault" on Ukraine.
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Maybe he is citizen of Russia maybe not, can't see the truth after all this propoganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 07:01:41 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 07:00:27 pm
Maybe he is citizen of Russia maybe not, can't see the truth after all this propoganda.

Lal. Do I have to find the video where he tells about himself? It's not even funny how you believe in all this crap :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 07:02:46 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 07:01:41 pm
Lal. Do I have to find the video where he tells about himself? It's not even funny how you believe in all this crap :oops:
What I believe? lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 07:04:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 07:02:46 pm
What I believe? lol

That Igor Girkin is a Ukrainian rebel or whatever you believe.

Here. 5 days ago I posted a fragment of one of his latest interviews in this thread.

Quote from: DaveUKR on July 12, 2014, 06:49:02 pm

The leader of separatists confesses that he is a colonel of FSB in reserve (since 31st of March I didn't get 2013 or 2014 year, most likely 2013), also fought in Bosnia for 5 months (and other conflicts).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 17, 2014, 07:10:31 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 07:04:48 pm
That Igor Girkin is a Ukrainian rebel or whatever you believe.

Here. 5 days ago I posted a fragment of one of his latest interviews in this thread.
Didn't see that he is not Ukranian. But no matter. Just made me laughed that you think that I believe in smth
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on July 17, 2014, 07:28:05 pm
Somebody shoot down Malaysian airliner. Around 300 death  :(

When volcano erupts they forbid planes to take off due to dust but flying over war area is possible :?

Hope it is not a kind of provocation to purposely aim civil plane to hot zone.   

 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 07:55:13 pm
Yup. The socialmedia has really worked against the separatists this time. They were bragging the shit out of the fact how they got the missiles possible to blow up a airplane from that altitude when they claimed a Ukrainian base. And when the separatist were confronted about the airplane crash they stated that they dont even have such weapons in their posession. GG. Well tovi? Got any theories?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 07:55:35 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 07:58:19 pm
The black boxes are taken to Moscow for "investigation". Son of a bitch. Now we will never know the truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 17, 2014, 08:40:03 pm
Before identity of plane surfaces: separatists had announced the capture of the missile system used in this attack last month already, separatist commander brags about shooting down the plane on twitter immediately after it happened.

After it comes out that it was a Malaysian passenger plane: separatists deny they have the capability to perform such a strike, blame it on an Ukrainian fighter jet, try to delete tweets re: captured missile system and shooting down the plane.

I love it. Reminds me of the Iraqi information minister back in 2003.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 09:53:18 pm
http://ru.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140704/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 09:54:32 pm
Oh well, the leader of separatists removed the message about destroyed Ukrainian military aircraft An-26. Google Cache sees it still. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3A_iGM8NwBVssJ%3Avk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256+&cd=1&hl=uk&ct=clnk&gl=nl

Anyway, pathetic bastards. They will of course refuse it  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 09:58:05 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 09:54:32 pm
Oh well, the leader of separatists removed the message about destroyed Ukrainian military aircraft An-26. Google Cache sees it still. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3A_iGM8NwBVssJ%3Avk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256+&cd=1&hl=uk&ct=clnk&gl=nl

Anyway, pathetic bastards. They will of course refuse it  :rolleyes:
if u read the authors of this page written several times that they are not  Igor Strelkov so dat part full bullshit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 17, 2014, 10:01:52 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on July 17, 2014, 06:31:01 pm
Can't wait to hear Tovi's theory on why the airplane was shot down.

Simple! It was the missing malaysian plane used by the CIA in eastern ukraine, right Tovi?

Lets listen to the master of enormous and unquestionable knowledge about the 'real truth' of conflicts and geopolitics, Christopher Greene of AMTV about the situation.


This should suffice. sounds like Tovi to me
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 10:03:57 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 09:58:05 pm
if u read the authors of this page written several times that they are not  Igor Strelkov so dat part full bullshit

Well, my mistake in writing it that way. It's kinda obvious that he's not administrating any pages in social networks personally, but still there is no doubt that this page is administered by separatists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 10:54:17 pm
You all gotta admit I de-derailed that topic like a boss  :D
I enjoy our little bouts more than I hate you all, day after day.

Thank you all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2014, 10:58:10 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 17, 2014, 10:54:17 pm
You all gotta admit I de-derailed that topic like a boss  :D
I enjoy our little bouts more than I hate you all, day after day.
Thank you all.
so it means you shot down plane! Oh, you bastard!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 17, 2014, 11:04:09 pm
That too, but dont tell me mom!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on July 18, 2014, 01:18:37 am
https://twitter.com/vesti_kpss/statuses/478926313831792640

HOLY SHIT
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 06:53:50 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2014, 06:38:19 pm
There is no video of Girkin with these words. It's a message from his own group with 150k of subscribers. http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7247
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Here's video of the plane crash.

What does that tweet say?  Google translate does not show any content about shoot down a plane.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 18, 2014, 07:05:24 am
The separatists blamed Ukraine. Stated witnesses saw a jet shooting down the airplane. Good god how these people lie. If they atleast admitted it and say they screwed up, they would still earn some respect. These people are fucking children. Fighters of the Donensk republic! Even freaking USA admits to killing civilians if some amount of proof flies into the media.  But these "freedom fighters" keep bribing the fucking locals so they will make up more bullshit stories. Man if I saw a fighterplane taking shots at another airplane i would sure as hell film it from the ground. Every person would. See tovi. These are the kind of people whose media you trust. Western media may be flawed, but this is how the East does it. Besides North-Korea nobody abuses the media like them. Even your grandma gets bribed to give false statements in the mighty East where there is nothing but truth. Those Youtube videos you post dont prove shit cause russians are known to litterally go so far as to get actors and turn old basements into actingstages.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thryn on July 18, 2014, 07:16:14 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on July 18, 2014, 09:19:12 am
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/russia-shoots-down-malaysian-mh17.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on July 18, 2014, 10:10:33 am
all we need is a gas from usa, fence the russia, give them kazakhstan and mongolia to play with and forget they ever existed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 18, 2014, 11:38:34 am
Ukraine bombs its own population with airplanes. This population defends itself and shot down a civilian plane by mistake.

I'm curious to see how the US will exploit this against Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 18, 2014, 11:52:31 am
Ukraine didnt bomb its own population. The cities are quite intact. It bombed the insurgents positions. Unfortunately there are always also civilians around. Why would Ukr bomb its own cities? They want to get their land back not burn it. They are the ones paying for the restaurationworks when this is over. Stop reading propaganda Tovi. It does bad things to your little brain, since this anti-west stance you have, has made you quite naive.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 18, 2014, 12:49:41 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 18, 2014, 01:26:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 18, 2014, 11:38:34 am
Ukraine bombs its own population with airplanes. This population defends itself and shot down a civilian plane by mistake.

I'm curious to see how the US will exploit this against Russia.
HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHA omfg Tovi never fails to deliver
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on July 18, 2014, 01:52:43 pm
Apparantly there were 100 HIV researchers on that plane that died. Russian seperatists confirmed for trying stop HIV cure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 18, 2014, 01:53:22 pm
The Ukrainian army does use bombs against the rebels.
The rebels did shot down a civilian plane.

The western world is indeed trying to accuse Russia, even though they had nothing to do with it, as much as the Ukrainian army had no reasons to target a plane going over Ukraine from west to east (rebels have no planes), or as much as USA/Europe which has no standing army nearby.


I fail to see the joke. Tovi and I agree that the rebels did it, everything goes in that direction.




The most Russia could have had with it, is providing the weapons, and it is still a moot point.




When I see this :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



I laugh in my cup as much as when I see this :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 18, 2014, 01:58:47 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 18, 2014, 01:53:22 pm
I fail to see the joke. Tovi and I agree that the rebels did it, everything goes in that direction.

Indeed you do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 18, 2014, 02:07:45 pm
Quote from: Christo on July 18, 2014, 01:58:47 pm
Indeed you do.

Indeed I do.



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on July 18, 2014, 02:11:01 pm
Well shit, Putin needs to man up, flatten UKR and take the fucking thing, if only so that 1/ ppl stop killing each other and 2/ this thread stops
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 18, 2014, 03:25:07 pm
I think we all agree.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 05:30:02 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 18, 2014, 01:53:22 pm
The Ukrainian army does use bombs against the rebels.
The rebels did shot down a civilian plane.

The western world is indeed trying to accuse Russia, even though they had nothing to do with it, as much as the Ukrainian army had no reasons to target a plane going over Ukraine from west to east (rebels have no planes), or as much as USA/Europe which has no standing army nearby.


I fail to see the joke. Tovi and I agree that the rebels did it, everything goes in that direction.


There is some indication that the missile battery was moved into Russia after the shoot down.



The most Russia could have had with it, is providing the weapons, and it is still a moot point.




When I see this :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



I laugh in my cup as much as when I see this :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


The rebels don't have the technical ability to operate the system.
They would need assistance from Russian technical experts.
There are recorded phone calls from rebels at the scene of the crash to Russian intelligence officers describing the wreckage and the fact that it was mistaken identity.
Putin and Russia control and supply the rebels and keep the pot boiling. 
Russian officers are known to be operating inside Ukraine.
Ukraine does not have any such batteries in that area.
Technical monitoring of the Ukrainian air defense system show no launch of any missile since this conflict began.
The black boxes were removed from the wreck and sent to Russia.
There are separtist recruitment stations set up in Moscow.

No, no connection whatsoever to Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 06:48:17 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 05:30:02 pm



The black boxes were removed from the wreck and sent to Russia.
There are separtist recruitment stations set up in Moscow.

No, no connection whatsoever to Russia.
I heard Putin personally shot down the plane then stole black boxes.
I'm from Moscow, please tell me where I can join separatist?
Seriously , check your sources.  I want to know.  :)
"RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA"  oh yeah
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 07:35:20 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 06:48:17 pm
I'm from Moscow, please tell me where I can join separatist?
http://dnr-news.com/dnr/934-v-moskve-nachal-rabotu-voenkomat-narodnogo-opolcheniya-donbassa.html
e-mail: [email protected]
skype: novoross2405

Not sure, I didn't check myself :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 18, 2014, 07:59:28 pm
More and more free lance fighters come from outside of Ukraine : psychopaths from Russia, neo nazees from Europa etc.  :|

@ Dave : I was mainly in Central Europa : Poland, Cseck rep., Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia. But a good friend of mine makes business in Ukraine. He thinks that joining EU is not a good thing (for its businees, at least, and for Ukraine too).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 08:15:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 07:35:20 pm
http://dnr-news.com/dnr/934-v-moskve-nachal-rabotu-voenkomat-narodnogo-opolcheniya-donbassa.html
e-mail: [email protected]
skype: novoross2405

Not sure, I didn't check myself :mrgreen:

No phone number and address just same text on some "yellow news" sites.
I expected more cuz you know all russians want kill ukrainians and stuff :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 18, 2014, 08:18:00 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 07:35:20 pm
http://dnr-news.com/dnr/934-v-moskve-nachal-rabotu-voenkomat-narodnogo-opolcheniya-donbassa.html
e-mail: [email protected]
skype: novoross2405

Not sure, I didn't check myself :mrgreen:

Guys in France are recruiting to go fight in Syria.
Under your logic France is supporting the Syria jihad.


Fact: when a war happens, people who want to join badly for political/religious reasons, find ways and go.
Example: Brigadas Internacionales.


There is a fine line between that and a nation organising the recruitment...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 08:33:10 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 18, 2014, 08:18:00 pm
Guys in France are recruiting to go fight in Syria.
Under your logic France is supporting the Syria jihad.


Fact: when a war happens, people who want to join badly for political/religious reasons, find ways and go.
Example: Brigadas Internacionales.


There is a fine line between that and a nation organising the recruitment...

Hahaha, that's funny.  Are the jihadists from France taking tanks, SAM missile know how, manpads, ammunition, communications gear, and coordination with French intelligence with them when they go to fight in Syria?  That's some real Butan logic right there.

Do you think that recruitment of heavy weapons crews could take place in Russia with out the security services knowing it?  Tanks and heavy weapons and apparently SAM crews are needed by the rebels in eastern Ukraine, not cannon fodder.  They have enough ethnic Russians in east Ukraine for that.

If the Russian government and military from Putin on down cutoff support to the rebels today, they would not last a week.  Are you asking the world to believe that the uniformed men that appeared in the Crimea and in east Ukraine were not Russian special forces, paid, trained and controlled by Russia?  If so you are seriously delusional my friend.  No one in the world outside of Russian and the ethnic Russians in Ukraine believe that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 08:36:02 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 18, 2014, 07:59:28 pm
More and more free lance fighters come from outside of Ukraine : psychopaths from Russia, neo nazees from Europa etc.  :|

@ Dave : I was mainly in Central Europa : Poland, Cseck rep., Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia. But a good friend of mine makes business in Ukraine. He thinks that joining EU is not a good thing (for its businees, at least, and for Ukraine too).

Psychopaths that operate BUK missile systems and shoot down an airliner from 33,000 feet?  My, my what a talented breed of psychopaths they have in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 08:36:26 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 18, 2014, 07:59:28 pm
@ Dave : I was mainly in Central Europa : Poland, Cseck rep., Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia. But a good friend of mine makes business in Ukraine. He thinks that joining EU is not a good thing (for its businees, at least, and for Ukraine too).
Tovi, you mother fucking retard  :mrgreen: I asked if you were in post-soviet countries: you said "yes". I asked where because I couldn't believe it: you said you were in fucking CENTRAL EUROPE. How is ANY of mentioned countries are god damn post-soviet?  :lol: :lol: And don't lie anymore about friends in Ukraine, you have no friends. :P


Quote from: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 08:15:17 pm
No phone number and address just same text on some "yellow news" sites.
I expected more cuz you know all russians want kill ukrainians and stuff :)

I don't know and I've never even heard about this before I read it here. And if there is such point of recruitment in Moscow, I wouldn't be the first person to know this most likely secret info. I doubt such places exist in Moscow. Even if they really recruit in Moscow - they don't do it like that: "Hello, if you want to kill some Ukrainians for DNR - you're welcome on Taganka street, 2 from 9 a.m. till 6 p.m."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 18, 2014, 08:38:54 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 06:48:17 pm
I heard Putin personally shot down the plane then stole black boxes.
I'm from Moscow, please tell me where I can join separatist?
Seriously , check your sources.  I want to know.  :)
"RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA"  oh yeah
Well the black boxes are taken to Moscow. What do you think the awnser is gonna be after "investigation"? Russia will NEVER say something like "Yes, separatists did it". I think even you know that very well. Lucky that these boxes are not needed as there is shitton of proof already. Kinda obvious when the separatists say "Yay, we shot down an airplane in social media" and Ukraine doesnt know what the fuck they are talking about and 20 minutes later it turns out a civilian airplane crashed. It doesnt take a genius to realise what really happened. If russians claim something other than separatist involvement, its the biggest obvious lie of the century.

I honestly wouldnt be suprised if you could join the separatists in Moscow. I mean common. The terrorists adore you. They even took your flag and edited it a little.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 08:42:11 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 06:48:17 pm
I heard Putin personally shot down the plane then stole black boxes.
I'm from Moscow, please tell me where I can join separatist?
Seriously , check your sources.  I want to know.  :)
"RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA"  oh yeah

Ask around.  If you have the right qualifications and motivation I'm sure someone will contact you.

Why would Putler dirty his hands?  All he has to do is pull the strings.

The blow back from this outrage will hopefully put enough spine in the world community to increase the pain on Putler and his close circle of cronies to give them pause in their campaign to destabilize Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 18, 2014, 08:45:41 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 08:36:26 pm
Tovi, you mother fucking retard  :mrgreen: I asked if you were in post-soviet countries: you said "yes". I asked where because I couldn't believe it: you said you were in fucking CENTRAL EUROPE. How is ANY of mentioned countries are god damn post-soviet?  :lol: :lol:

I guess he meant the former Warsaw Pact and didn't realize post-Soviet isn't the same thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 08:54:25 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 08:36:26 pm

I don't know and I've never even heard about this before I read it here. And if there is such point of recruitment in Moscow, I wouldn't be the first person to know this most likely secret info. I doubt such places exist in Moscow. Even if they really recruit in Moscow - they don't do it like that: "Hello, if you want to kill some Ukrainians for DNR - you're welcome on Taganka street, 2 from 9 a.m. till 6 p.m."
I know. But look at post below your.   They got  information about boxes or moscow's separatists  somewhere on internet and use that  information  like truth.

Quote from: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 08:42:11 pm
Ask around.  If you have the right qualifications and motivation I'm sure someone will contact you.
Why I have to ask around? You told that we have special place for recruiting. Somewhere near Red Square I guess :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 18, 2014, 09:00:35 pm
oh bitchcamp minused me on 7 pages  :lol: some one need life even more than me  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 18, 2014, 09:02:39 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 08:36:26 pm
Tovi, you mother fucking retard  :mrgreen: I asked if you were in post-soviet countries: you said "yes". I asked where because I couldn't believe it: you said you were in fucking CENTRAL EUROPE. How is ANY of mentioned countries are god damn post-soviet?  :lol: :lol: And don't lie anymore about friends in Ukraine, you have no friends. :P


I don't know and I've never even heard about this before I read it here. And if there is such point of recruitment in Moscow, I wouldn't be the first person to know this most likely secret info. I doubt such places exist in Moscow. Even if they really recruit in Moscow - they don't do it like that: "Hello, if you want to kill some Ukrainians for DNR - you're welcome on Taganka street, 2 from 9 a.m. till 6 p.m."

Well to be fair weren't most of those countries occupied by Soviets post WWII?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 09:16:19 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 18, 2014, 08:54:25 pm

Why I have to ask around? You told that we have special place for recruiting. Somewhere near Red Square I guess :)
That's right a special place as you say, not a public one.

You have to ask because it plays into the charade that Russia is not involved in the activity.  Do you expect signs to be put up.  Lol, that would be too easy and too public.  Any way if you have no experience with tanks, or heavy weapons or anti-aircraft missiles you probably won't find those special places and special people.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 09:16:46 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on July 18, 2014, 09:02:39 pm
Well to be fair weren't most of those countries occupied by Soviets post WWII?  :P

To be fair they were not in Soviet Union what would make them "post-soviet". Also the reason why I asked this question first of all was to provoke Tovi to share his experience because I was absolutely convinced that he has no idea what he speaks about. Because instead of Moldova, Ukraine, Belorussia, Russia, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Kazakhstan and etc. "scumbag Steve"-Tovi calls a lot of countries which are ALL in god damn European Union. Got it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 18, 2014, 09:19:27 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on July 18, 2014, 09:02:39 pm
Well to be fair weren't most of those countries occupied by Soviets post WWII?  :P
For a little bit. The soviets occupied these countries and raped em after the na zis lost, but they never were really a part of it. Post-Soviet states are those that were a part of the Shitempire til its collapse under its own shit. Due to being part of this Shitempire once, it is the reason why russians feel that it is their birthright to own these countries or atleast torment them cause they dont own them out of bitterness.

Yes, I think I went a little far here. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 18, 2014, 09:24:23 pm
Quote from: okiN on July 18, 2014, 08:45:41 pm
I guess he meant the former Warsaw Pact and didn't realize post-Soviet isn't the same thing.
Tovi shows his knowledge again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 09:32:04 pm
Quote from: okiN on July 18, 2014, 08:45:41 pm
I guess he meant the former Warsaw Pact and didn't realize post-Soviet isn't the same thing.

I guess Tovi is neonаzi who thinks that all slavs are commie soviet shit so he simply doesn't distinguish them.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 10:52:51 pm
Igor Girkin (Strelkov) explains the Malaysian Airlines crash. The passengers were already dead!  Brilliant.

Tovi you'll love this one.

http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html (http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 18, 2014, 10:55:46 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 10:52:51 pm
Igor Girkin (Strelkov) explains the Malaysian Airlines crash. The passengers were already dead!  Brilliant.

Tovi you'll love this one.

http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html (http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html)

See? It is Flight 370! The CIA/USA evil empire reused the plane and the bodies of passengers too! It is the real truth

It must be true
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 18, 2014, 11:13:06 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 10:52:51 pm
Igor Girkin (Strelkov) explains the Malaysian Airlines crash. The passengers were already dead!  Brilliant.

Tovi you'll love this one.

http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html (http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html)
give then link on interview with him where he says it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 18, 2014, 11:23:01 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2014, 08:36:26 pm
Tovi, you mother fucking retard  :mrgreen:

Dave you fucking son of a rapist  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:

Good humor, good humor...


Now calm your tits, and re-read Tovi post: he said "I was in....mainly... but a friend in Ukraine" = he acknowledged to never have been in a post-soviet state. He didnt apologize and went on his knees, thats true...
Anything that stand out a bit and a Xant-train shows up  :lol:



Quote from: Turkhammer on July 18, 2014, 10:52:51 pm
Igor Girkin (Strelkov) explains the Malaysian Airlines crash. The passengers were already dead!  Brilliant.


This guy may be a good military leader, but he sucks at politics. I bet they are trying to find a new one as we speak, or at least form a PR staff of some sort.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 19, 2014, 12:27:12 am
Quote
give then link on interview with him where he says it.
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405676334
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 19, 2014, 12:48:52 am
Quote from: serr on July 19, 2014, 12:27:12 am
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405676334
and again just text without identifying the source, http://icorpus.ru/strelkov-ne-delal-zayavlenij-aviakatastrofy/

 All his statements he makes only on this site through authorized persons. all the other nonsense simply reprinted from any source, such as forums like our XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 19, 2014, 12:53:44 am
Quote
and again just text without identifying the source, http://icorpus.ru/strelkov-ne-delal-zayavlenij-aviakatastrofy/
That's old info

http://forum-antikvariat.ru/topic/205658-%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3-%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82/page__st__300#entry2187131
Here is his forum and his statements that were reprinted by rusvesna I posted above
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 19, 2014, 01:18:57 am
Quote from: serr on July 19, 2014, 12:53:44 am
That's old info

http://forum-antikvariat.ru/topic/205658-%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3-%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82/page__st__300#entry2187131
Here is his forum and his statements that were reprinted by rusvesna I posted above
т.е. статью которую ты привел как интервью слепили из постов на форуме, терь понятно. А где написано что котыч это гиркин? не придираюсь просто для себя спрашиваю. Ну и думаю большая разница между "гиркин сказал, что все трупу давно трупы" и "гиркин сказал, что очевидцы думают, что все трупы давно трупы" ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on July 19, 2014, 08:29:48 am
8 months since the start of this thread, and we never got pass the "Those who support the Russians are dumb retarded neo nazee fucks pricks" but "Those who support UKR are freedom fighters and modern anarchists" part.

Nicely done.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 19, 2014, 08:38:28 am
Yep, we're still on track.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 19, 2014, 09:42:01 am
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 19, 2014, 10:33:13 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on July 19, 2014, 08:29:48 am
8 months since the start of this thread, and we never got pass the "Those who support the Russians are dumb retarded neo nazee fucks pricks" but "Those who support UKR are freedom fighters and modern anarchists" part.

Nicely done.

Well.......yea. I mean look at these russian supporters. Conspiracytheorist Tovi, Butan who is just trolling and the rest are russians. Porthos and other russians even agreed on the matter that russian goverment is indeed retarded, but unfortunately they cant do any better. The only reason I even support Ukraine is because im fully aware on how shit russian media really is and how its 90% of the time used mainly for propaganda to turn people into haters. According to russian experts and official reports all countries that border them and they dont have warm relations with, have fascist goverments(Mybe not Finland cause everyone visits Finland and that shit would never fly).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 19, 2014, 11:28:43 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on July 19, 2014, 08:29:48 am
8 months since the start of this thread, and we never got pass the "Those who support the Russians are dumb retarded neo nazee fucks pricks" but "Those who support UKR are freedom fighters and modern anarchists" part.

Nicely done.

And Panos still can't get who is who :lol: It's pro-Ukrainians who are getting called neonаzis and nobody of them was called "modern anarchists", start "full assault" on Ukraine :D


Quote from: Butan on July 18, 2014, 11:23:01 pm
Now calm your tits, and re-read Tovi post: he said "I was in....mainly... but a friend in Ukraine" = he acknowledged to never have been in a post-soviet state. He didnt apologize and went on his knees, thats true...
Anything that stand out a bit and a Xant-train shows up  :lol:

It was multiple times when I asked Tovi in this thread if he has ever been to Russia or any other post-soviet country. He either evaded answering it or said "yes". Then I was trying to get some more information about it, then again he tried to ignore. And when he finally answered - it turned out that he simply lied (for no matter what reasons: even if he is not competent what he speaks about). What a plot twist: truth fighter can't handle the truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 19, 2014, 11:36:12 am
I still don't understand why you keep taking Tovi seriously after he's been provably wrong 100 times
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 19, 2014, 11:38:59 am
Quote from: Xant on July 19, 2014, 11:36:12 am
I still don't understand why you keep taking Tovi seriously after he's been provably wrong 100 times

Nobody keeps taking him seriously. It's just the matter of the question: how far he can go with his crap  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on July 19, 2014, 12:46:42 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 19, 2014, 10:33:13 am
Well.......yea. I mean look at these russian supporters. Conspiracytheorist Tovi, Butan who is just trolling and the rest are russians. Porthos and other russians even agreed on the matter that russian goverment is indeed retarded, but unfortunately they cant do any better. The only reason I even support Ukraine is because im fully aware on how shit russian media really is and how its 90% of the time used mainly for propaganda to turn people into haters. According to russian experts and official reports all countries that border them and they dont have warm relations with, have fascist goverments(Mybe not Finland cause everyone visits Finland and that shit would never fly).

Yeah, because the Ukranians dont use propaganda at all, for example they dont release a video of some "russian rebels" speaking about the MH-17 crash 2 days before the crash, I guess the Ukranians can time travel now  :lol:


The video was created before the plane was attacked
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Oh and BTW dave, I still support Russia 100%
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 19, 2014, 01:12:03 pm
I didnt say Ukrainian propaganda is good. I just dont know nothing about it. All I know is Ukraine never tries or tried to invade me and that Russia has tried and is trying to invade everything thats nearby it, so that kinda makes me root for Ukr. Its just really that simple. And the other fact that I havent heard a lot of Ukr propaganda due to my geographical position, but ive heard shitton of russian thats pretty much aimed against me and others like me.

Seriuslly. Its not like Russia is even denying trying to annex everything it borders. If you ask about it, they will either blame USA or say "USA does bad things too you know, so just look past our bad things cause USA is also very bad". Which is basically just dodging questions and why majority of the world has given up trying to get legitimate awnsers from russian officials.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 19, 2014, 05:08:37 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on July 19, 2014, 12:46:42 pm
(click to show/hide)
they have already reloaded video XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 19, 2014, 07:50:37 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on July 19, 2014, 12:46:42 pm
Yeah, because the Ukranians dont use propaganda at all, for example they dont release a video of some "russian rebels" speaking about the MH-17 crash 2 days before the crash, I guess the Ukranians can time travel now  :lol:


The video was created before the plane was attacked


Oh and BTW dave, I still support Russia 100%



First of all. I've got a present for you. I've made a video and uploaded it on YouTube just right now. Watch it.

Ok, now when you've watched it - you can download it and look into metadata of this video file.
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OH SHIT. DAVEUKR POSTS A VIDEO WITH SCREENSHOT OF PANOS THE DAY BEFORE HE POSTS IT ON FORUM!!!

And now I explain: when video file gets uploaded on YouTube - metadata is getting added by YouTube itself, meaning that creation date is actually a date when they file was encoded by YouTube. And YouTube has the other time settings as you can guess. You somehow got 2 when you tried to calculate 17-16 (about 2 days before and 16th of July when the video was uploaded on 17th), so basically it's just another shit that got you. Shame on you. Good that you didn't ask to start "full assault" on Ukraine this time.

And second. I don't give a shit what you support. You can support Russia, Golden Dawn or even Zeus' balls (aka God's olives).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 19, 2014, 08:43:50 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 19, 2014, 11:28:43 am
It was multiple times when I asked Tovi in this thread if he has ever been to Russia or any other post-soviet country. He either evaded answering it or said "yes". Then I was trying to get some more information about it, then again he tried to ignore. And when he finally answered - it turned out that he simply lied (for no matter what reasons: even if he is not competent what he speaks about). What a plot twist: truth fighter can't handle the truth.

Plot twist: noone wants to admit anything to your face, because you're an insufferable asshole about your country current situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 19, 2014, 08:53:32 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 19, 2014, 08:43:50 pm
Plot twist: noone wants to admit anything to your face, because you're an insufferable asshole about your country current situation.

What do you mean "admit"? So basically whatever Tovi posts is bullshit because I'm an asshole? That explains everything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 19, 2014, 09:10:20 pm
Wow, Retardutan strikes again. I wonder how that logic works. Tovi lies about his Soviet adventures because he doesn't want to admit he's never been in old Soviet countries because he doesn't want to admit anything to Dave's face... okay then
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 19, 2014, 10:50:28 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on July 19, 2014, 08:29:48 am
8 months since the start of this thread, and we never got pass the "Those who support the Russians are dumb retarded neo nazee fucks pricks" but "Those who support UKR are freedom fighters and modern anarchists" part.

Nicely done.

Proper conclusion reached.  No where else to go.

Oh sorry Panos, to make progress for you it must be said that the Jews must have had a hand in it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 19, 2014, 11:44:46 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 19, 2014, 08:43:50 pm
Plot twist: noone wants to admit anything to your face, because you're an insufferable asshole about your country current situation.
I do kinda belive he has been more then fair about it tbh. How was he insufferable? For saying his opinion? Just cause you dont agree doesnt make him an ass. Being ass to Tovi doesnt count cause he is one of those brainwashed conspiracytypes that thinks everyone else is brainwashed. Some things he agrees with are quite unlogical and straight up dumb as hell and some things he disagrees with are extremely more logical than the ones he accepts. When we had the discussion about the tanks a few pages back he literally tried so damn hard to deny pretty obvious things with extremely sketchy explanations.

Tovi hasnt been to the East and yet he claims to know everything about it. But majority of people that are from the East and have read his posts are clearly seeing that this man has no understanding of it. How can you not be an asshole about it. Obviously Butan and Tovi know a lot more about Ukraine than the fucking person living there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 12:54:53 am
Quote from: Tibe on July 19, 2014, 11:44:46 pm
Tovi hasnt been to the East and yet he claims to know everything about it. But majority of people that are from the East and have read his posts are clearly seeing that this man has no understanding of it. How can you not be an asshole about it. Obviously Butan and Tovi know a lot more about Ukraine than the fucking person living there.

Exactly. Even being an asshole doesn't mean that I have any kind of satisfaction when I reveal Tovi's bullshit. Winning an argument with Tovi is like finding a turd on the street - kind of very doubtful success I'd say. I can appear even a bigger asshole in your eyes if I say that I actually tend to never argue with such people on the internet. Because in order to have any success trying to comprehend each other you have to operate the equal level of argument. In both other cases you risk to look stupid: you either argue with a mentally challenged guy which makes you not as much better or you argue with a person who is more competent and, what is worse, smarter than you. As you might have noticed: Tovi is a material of a second case, because I can't achieve his knowledge in NWO and all the other stuff. But it's a special case because we're a relatively small and old community which is beloved by me, that's why I'm not afraid to look retarded because there are a lot of people who know me for a while and wouldn't think as bad as I deserve in this case.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 03:44:11 am
was out of this thread for long and going to gone for long again.

i know about strong russian propaganda but i dont give a fuck cuz i dont live in russia.
the thing is our tv... just... many one-side shown facts, many nonsense facts without proofs(getting lold every time when i hear how separatists a bombing civilians inside the town... they are inside the town. are they bombing themselfs or what? maybe they have this ammo that they have to waste? cool story), many anti russian statements.
well the main trouble is everything is being showed from one side and quite rarelly its so with proofs. why cant they just tell facts? as i've got from what america and eu are currently doing about all this - most of things we can hear from our TV is bullshit. if its not bullshit there would be real war with russia like one month ago.
I just cant get how those people dare to use information source as a weapon. maybe i should blame the whole modern world for this... well i am blaming whole world then. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on July 20, 2014, 10:02:35 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 19, 2014, 10:50:28 pm
Oh sorry Panos, to make progress for you it must be said that the Jews must have had a hand in it.


What are you on about mate, I love the jews and I totally sympathize with their strugles to survive!!!

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REMEMBER THE 6 GAZILLION
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 10:34:21 am
It's not Israel's fault Palestinians suck at everything, including explosives. Warfare is not symmetric. Maybe they should stop sending the rockets if they're not doing much damage if they don't like the retaliations :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 10:50:16 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 03:44:11 am
was out of this thread for long and going to gone for long again.

i know about strong russian propaganda but i dont give a fuck cuz i dont live in russia.
the thing is our tv... just... many one-side shown facts, many nonsense facts without proofs(getting lold every time when i hear how separatists a bombing civilians inside the town... they are inside the town. are they bombing themselfs or what? maybe they have this ammo that they have to waste? cool story), many anti russian statements.
well the main trouble is everything is being showed from one side and quite rarelly its so with proofs. why cant they just tell facts? as i've got from what america and eu are currently doing about all this - most of things we can hear from our TV is bullshit. if its not bullshit there would be real war with russia like one month ago.
I just cant get how those people dare to use information source as a weapon. maybe i should blame the whole modern world for this... well i am blaming whole world then.

What channels do you watch? Well, it's kinda obvious for everyone that you can't get the nude truth from TV channels, no matter which TV channel it is. From the bullshit of Ukrainian TVs I can point out:
1. Yes, the cruelty of separatists. I totally agree with you that separatists are shown as cruel terrorists who bomb cities and kidnap civilians. That's obvious that with all their shit they're not killing civilians on purpose (I don't refuse that there might be some retards who do but still the vast majority doesn't kidnap/marauder/rob banks). When they actually kill civilians they do it because they can't handle some kind of weaponry they've got (same situation as happened with Malaysian plane). The main anti-civilian purpose that they really have is that they're hiding inside cities and civilian blocks but some people can call it tactic (I personally don't).
2. The amount of dead separatists. I think that you have to cut the amount of dead separatists like 3 times at least. First of all, you can never count it, second is that they kind of count wounded as dead and third is that if this amount of dead separatists was real (I mean not the global one but the daily losses of separatists calculated all in one) then it would break like 20 thousand of separatists which is not doubtful, it's impossible.
3. Chechens. I've seen a lot of videos where it was said that cruel separatists have shittons of Chechens among them. In reality most of shown separatists were not islamic radicals but just random slavs with beards. In reality I doubt that there is more than 5% of all separatists being from Caucasian region overall.
4. Closed borders. I've heard it like 10 times already that Ukrainians control the whole border line between Russia and Ukraine. In reality they never did, that's why there are still holes in border which are actively used by separatists.
5. Caught terrorists by SBU. That's the other common thing that I hear from Ukrainian TV: like SBU caught 10 separatists who were trying to support DNR/explode something/recruit other separatists/destabilize situation. In reality I guess that half of these cases are just random alcoholics who yell "Glory to Russia, back to USSR".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 10:59:25 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on July 20, 2014, 10:02:35 am

What are you on about mate, I love the jews and I totally sympathize with their strugles to survive!!!
(click to show/hide)
REMEMBER THE 6 GAZILLION

Seriuslly. Its not Israels fault they cant hit shit. Panos if someone pointed a gun at you and emptied an entire clip at you but missed and you also had a gun its kinda obvious you would not let it slide. You would not miss if you were a good shot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 11:00:16 am
No no, according to Panos it's fine if someone's trying to kill you as long as they're not very good at it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 11:02:03 am
Panos will not admit anything to your face, you guys are insufferable assholes about Ukraine's current situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 11:25:16 am
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/separatists-put-kabbalistic-curse-on-ukrainian-governor/502473.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 11:34:01 am
From military source :

(click to show/hide)

Also, Ukraine prepare an attack on Crimea. Mainly with artillery to provoke Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 11:39:23 am
I read it wrong, my bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 11:49:22 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 11:34:01 am
From military source :

(click to show/hide)

Also, Ukraine prepare an attack on Crimea. Mainly with artillery to provoke Russia.
Pls tovi post the alien attack plans on Earth next
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 12:24:51 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 11:34:01 am
From military source :

(click to show/hide)

Also, Ukraine prepare an attack on Crimea. Mainly with artillery to provoke Russia.


Yes, a photo of a road map edited with MS Paint is definitely from a "military source". Same with the info about Ukraine preparing to attack Crimea.

Military source:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 12:29:15 pm
It means it has been made by a french military...

About Crimea, we'll see who says bullshits.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 12:36:31 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 12:29:15 pm
It means it has been made by a french military...

About Crimea, we'll see who says bullshits.

No, it hasn't been made by a French military. There is no army in EU which uses photoes of road maps in local language and then edits it with MS Paint (also fails to spell correct names of cities and forgets to add white box on the background of Lugansk). If I edit a map of France with Paint - will you tell everyone that Ukrainian military drew the map to invade France?

About Crimea: when are you expecting this artillery attack to start? "we'll see who says bullshits" - we've already seen your previous posts, no need to try hard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 12:43:30 pm
Tovi pls stahp
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 01:03:02 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 12:29:15 pm
It means it has been made by a french military...

About Crimea, we'll see who says bullshits.
Tovi, why would Ukraine just provoke Russia? Are you mentally retarded? Do you actually even think with little brain? Think about it. Ukraine has already lost a lot of soldiers, equipment, they just want this shit to end, but they cant have separatists and they already have hard time making sure Russia doesnt invade them in the current state. Why would they ever attack Crimea, where there are actual professional russian soldiers stationed with way better equipment than what Ukraine has? That would be instant suicide. Again you belive this crap that makes no sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 01:15:09 pm
No no no Tibe, instead of launching a devastating surprise attack that MIGHT let them hold Crimea for a week before Russia retaliates with overwhelming force, Ukraine is going to "provoke" Russia into just destroying them outright, without even a chance of achieving anything, TOVI SAID SO IT MUST BE TRUE

And he has the Paint map to prove it!!!!!!!!!! Never forget the paint map
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 01:24:17 pm
Yea, lets just shoot some shells at Crimea for lols! Cause fuck them, lets see what happens!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 20, 2014, 02:21:23 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 12:36:31 pm
There is no army in EU which uses photoes of road maps in local language and then edits it with MS Paint (also fails to spell correct names of cities and forgets to add white box on the background of Lugansk).

It is true that the google map - ms paint edit of the conclusive proofs of GRAD bombardment by Russia 10 pages ago was way more solid.
I mean, the guys used google map, truely a masterwork report!




On the subject of Crimea, I highly doubt that they would try to aggressively re-take Crimea right now, but there is absolutely NO DOUBT that Ukraine nationalism fervor is backed by a long term goal of re-taking Crimea, whatever it takes.
Every political parties actually in power are going in that direction, and every diplomatical moves with Russia include "gife bak crimeah or d!e".


Anyone remember how the Georgia - Russia war started? Georgia was even more stupidly outgunned, but they bet all on a surprise massive attack to retake lost soil and to protect it while maintaining international pressure.
I bet there is a few ukrainian military staff exploring the matter right of now. The decision isnt in their hands though, Poroshenko will decide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 02:57:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 20, 2014, 02:21:23 pm
It is true that the google map - ms paint edit of the conclusive proofs of GRAD bombardment by Russia 10 pages ago was way more solid.
I mean, the guys used google map, truely a masterwork report!
So who claimed it was the work of some western country's military, you fucking retard? Rhetorical question
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 03:45:41 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 10:50:16 am
What channels do you watch? Well, it's kinda obvious for everyone that you can't get the nude truth from TV channels, no matter which TV channel it is. From the bullshit of Ukrainian TVs I can point out:
1. Yes, the cruelty of separatists. I totally agree with you that separatists are shown as cruel terrorists who bomb cities and kidnap civilians. That's obvious that with all their shit they're not killing civilians on purpose (I don't refuse that there might be some retards who do but still the vast majority doesn't kidnap/marauder/rob banks). When they actually kill civilians they do it because they can't handle some kind of weaponry they've got (same situation as happened with Malaysian plane). The main anti-civilian purpose that they really have is that they're hiding inside cities and civilian blocks but some people can call it tactic (I personally don't).
2. The amount of dead separatists. I think that you have to cut the amount of dead separatists like 3 times at least. First of all, you can never count it, second is that they kind of count wounded as dead and third is that if this amount of dead separatists was real (I mean not the global one but the daily losses of separatists calculated all in one) then it would break like 20 thousand of separatists which is not doubtful, it's impossible.
3. Chechens. I've seen a lot of videos where it was said that cruel separatists have shittons of Chechens among them. In reality most of shown separatists were not islamic radicals but just random slavs with beards. In reality I doubt that there is more than 5% of all separatists being from Caucasian region overall.
4. Closed borders. I've heard it like 10 times already that Ukrainians control the whole border line between Russia and Ukraine. In reality they never did, that's why there are still holes in border which are actively used by separatists.
5. Caught terrorists by SBU. That's the other common thing that I hear from Ukrainian TV: like SBU caught 10 separatists who were trying to support DNR/explode something/recruit other separatists/destabilize situation. In reality I guess that half of these cases are just random alcoholics who yell "Glory to Russia, back to USSR".
Новый канал(the most of proofless bullshit i hear from there since maydan. subjective as fuck), 5th channel, 1+1.

one of the way which our propaganda use is making some wrong things as right apriory.
example:
i have nothing against "separatists" because it is separatism. i am not sure about "terrorists". I am totally disagree with "russian terrorists" and "russian mercenaries" lol. separatists are being named by each of those names often repeatedly. but damn... majority are surelly not mercenaries and not even russians. so wtf?
and its so with the rest of things.

i complitelly dislike when they are starting to tell "russian propaganda is liying" etc.
1. I live in ukraine and i complitelly dont give a fuck what does russian propaganda says cuz i am not in russian. its not my business and for sure its not business of our tv. its not worth to be in the TV-news propgram.
2. everytime when i hear about the russian channels who are using fake proofs i am getting one question: "how can i know that you arent doing the same?"

as you said about separatist who are bombing civilians. well MAYBE but surelly they are not aiming at it. even more... i belive its our army may bomb some civilians because of same reason. they are attacking at least, ofcourse its harder.

i luv the cool stories about russians who are launching something from the russian territory. well you dont have any real proofs except someones words. how can it be counted?

this airplane... in one tv-news block i've hear the version with some russian rocket launcher, then another version about some heli who took down the airplane. i dont give a fuck about versions. how dare you are call yourself as "news" but telling the things like old grandmums.
there are many strange things about this airplane. wont count them and wont say my opinion cuz i have not enough information to be sure in something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 04:10:44 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 03:45:41 pm
there are many strange things about this airplane. wont count them and wont say my opinion cuz i have not enough information to be sure in something.

Honestly there isnt anymore information needed to be sure that the separatists did it. The leader bragged it himself that they shot a plane down 20 minutes before the news got out that a civilian plane had crashed. It wasnt a Ukrainian plane or anyone elses, so it was definately that plane. The leader deleted his statements right at the moment when they found out it was civilian. Like thats gonna do any good.

And I think Butan has just lost it by now. He has been wrong so much that the pressure of his wrongness is making him splat more random stuff in this thread with increased rage.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:17:12 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 12:36:31 pm
No, it hasn't been made by a French military. There is no army in EU which uses photoes of road maps in local language and then edits it with MS Paint (also fails to spell correct names of cities and forgets to add white box on the background of Lugansk). If I edit a map of France with Paint - will you tell everyone that Ukrainian military drew the map to invade France?

About Crimea: when are you expecting this artillery attack to start? "we'll see who says bullshits" - we've already seen your previous posts, no need to try hard.

I was the first to say Pravy Sektor joined the National Guard and that a civil war was starting. Guess what ? All of you called me "retarded" and gentle things like that. But if I'd really say bullshit, do you imagine I would stay there ?
Just quote 1 thing I said wrong (and that you can proove, of course).

All I can say about french army (who is absolutly NOT in Ukraine  :mrgreen:), is that a lot of militaries doesn't agree with NATO policy. They don't want to make war in Syria or in Ukraine. And it's the same in the US army. A lot of american generals have been fired last years.
If we don't have a very good reason to initiate a war, the Army may not follow the politicians. That's why it's so important to create a good casus belli.

Remember this
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 04:26:27 pm
There aren't enough facepalms for all these Tovi posts. The facepalm to post ratio with Tovi's posts is 1:1, ALL of his posts contain unprecedented amounts of retardation.

omg look one guy in us army uniform totes wrote on a piece of paper he wont kil or die 4 ukrawen this meanz the army wont do what thyre told 2 do!!!!!!!!111
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 20, 2014, 04:29:05 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:17:12 pm
I was the first to say Pravy Sektor joined the National Guard and that a civil war was starting. Guess what ?

Nobody cares
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 04:29:48 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


breaking news everyone in the world wants to be able to love lebanon lesbians again


Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:17:12 pm
But if I'd really say bullshit, do you imagine I would stay there ?
Well, evidently.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:34:46 pm
Quote from: Christo on July 20, 2014, 04:29:05 pm
Nobody cares

Obviously !  :lol:

You don't need to argue. Insulting is enough.
That's how I identify propaganda brainwashing, and that's why I stay.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 04:37:39 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:34:46 pm
That's how I identify propaganda brainwashing, and that's why I stay.
Yet more impeccable logic here, brought to you by Tovi. "you are brainwashed, ergo I stay here to be insulted." That's how I identify a retard, Tovi. You, in case you were wondering.

Also way to never bring up the 1000 things again where you've been provably wrong, Tovi. You've dropped a hundred things you've brought up all of a sudden when people show you're wrong, and then you show up a day later to post more bullshit, stay classy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:41:40 pm
Just give me an exemple.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 04:44:28 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:41:40 pm
Just give me an exemple.
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg1043723/#msg1043723

http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg1043066/#msg1043066
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 04:47:01 pm
Tovi, you are the one whose reading sources that are specifically made for propaganda and brainwashing, not sources that are ment to inform.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 05:02:12 pm
Do you really feel informed ? So why can't you tell anything that I already know ?

@xant : I've never said I was in Ukraine. And in France we dont make much difference between "sovietic" and "communist". Officialy, France is actually under a socialist government. I could play with words and say better than you what a socialist country is.
 I don't know how old is Dave, but I knew the communist propaganda during the Cold War, when I was young. I can make the difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 20, 2014, 05:09:20 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 05:02:12 pm
Do you really feel informed ? So why can't you tell anything that I already know ?

Hah, anybody can act like that with another google and wikipedia tab opened, you know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 05:12:35 pm
Why can't you admit that most of main media just repeat what politicians say ? Last days they don't even talk about situation in Ukraine until that plane crashed.
All we can hear is " Sepratists = terrorists" and "Obama blame Putin for supporting rebellion". That's not what I call "be informed".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leesin on July 20, 2014, 05:13:29 pm
Tovi is like a turd that just wont flush
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 05:14:38 pm
What do you call informed than? "Separatist=heroes"? "Ukraine is to blame for everything"? What?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 05:17:48 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 04:10:44 pm
Honestly there isnt anymore information needed to be sure that the separatists did it. The leader bragged it himself that they shot a plane down 20 minutes before the news got out that a civilian plane had crashed. It wasnt a Ukrainian plane or anyone elses, so it was definately that plane. The leader deleted his statements right at the moment when they found out it was civilian. Like thats gonna do any good.

And I think Butan has just lost it by now. He has been wrong so much that the pressure of his wrongness is making him splat more random stuff in this thread with increased rage.
well the question is what the fuck is this plane and what the hell it was doing there. i am almost sure it was provocation to:
variant 1:
give even worse name to separatists and russia
variant 2:
to end all this shit with the reason "enough civilians got killed in all this. since now this became not a local but global problem because complitelly inocent people died because of it" 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 20, 2014, 05:20:06 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 04:10:44 pm
Honestly there isnt anymore information needed to be sure that the separatists did it.

Some times I think you don't need any information

Quote from: Tibe on July 18, 2014, 08:38:54 pm
Well the black boxes are taken to Moscow.
Quote from: Tibe on July 18, 2014, 11:52:31 am
Ukraine didnt bomb its own population. The cities are quite intact. It bombed the insurgents positions. Unfortunately there are always also civilians around. Why would Ukr bomb its own cities?
Quote from: Tibe on July 17, 2014, 04:11:05 pm
You know you wouldnt be so pro-russian yourself if you knew the facts.
Quote from: Tibe on July 15, 2014, 03:02:34 pm
Cant russian armies just sit the fuck down and drink vodka? How bloody hard is it to not invade shit? Seriuslly....
Quote from: Tibe on July 05, 2014, 12:22:51 pm
the fact that tanks were seen crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine.
Quote from: Tibe on May 27, 2014, 10:13:39 pm
On maidan 100 people died cause the corrupt president didnt give up his seat and gave the order to shoot at the protesters and he was backed by Russia and he is still backed by Russia. In Odessa 48 were killed and "were disapeared" because the pro-russian separatists went on a lootingspree, which was "not backed by russia" as your officials claim.
Quote from: Tibe on February 28, 2014, 03:14:04 pm
They really do. Western history may slightly bend the actual facts, but russian historians downright fabricate it out of their asses.
You are so sure)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 05:27:04 pm
How could it have been provocation when it was just an average plane with average passengers inside traveling the same route as it always did? It would have been a provocation when lets say someone told the pilots to switch routes to specifically to travel into the separatist area. But flying through eastern-Ukraine had always been part of its route. So this was basically planned by noone as some kind of provocation considering the fact that it is AN AVERAGE FLIGHTROUTE.

Quote from: DonNicko on July 20, 2014, 05:20:06 pm
(click to show/hide)
I dont get it... There is info on all of this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 20, 2014, 05:33:24 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 05:27:04 pm
I dont get it... There is info on all of this.
Don't worry that was just trolling, smbd will get it)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 05:40:03 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 05:02:12 pm

@xant : I've never said I was in Ukraine. And in France we dont make much difference between "sovietic" and "communist". Officialy, France is actually under a socialist government. I could play with words and say better than you what a socialist country is.
 I don't know how old is Dave, but I knew the communist propaganda during the Cold War, when I was young. I can make the difference.
Whatever you're on, I would dearly like to sample it. Who the fuck claimed you said you were in Ukraine?

So how about showing some proof that map you posted is from the French military?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 20, 2014, 05:55:08 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 05:17:48 pm
well the question is what the fuck is this plane and what the hell it was doing there. i am almost sure it was provocation to:
variant 1:
give even worse name to separatists and russia
variant 2:
to end all this shit with the reason "enough civilians got killed in all this. since now this became not a local but global problem because complitelly inocent people died because of it"

Are you that stupid?  That plane was one of hundreds that flew that exact route during the months this conflict has been going on.  And now you say the one that got shot down is a planned provocation?

The plain truth of the matter is that the Russian proxy forces in eastern Ukraine had only the BUK battery with just the homing radar on the missiles.  They just switched that on and off (so as not to be detected) until they spotted a target, and then launched.   They did not have the ancillary vehicles with search radar which would have allowed them to distinguish the plane from a distance and give them enough time to try to determine if it was a scheduled flight or not.  The Russian proxy forces were anxious to shoot down another Ukrainian military flight and they fucked up...big time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 20, 2014, 06:02:40 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on July 20, 2014, 10:02:35 am

What are you on about mate, I love the jews and I totally sympathize with their strugles to survive!!!




REMEMBER THE 6 GAZILLION

Then you must be pleased with way things are going.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 06:06:59 pm
average flightroute through the war zone? hm okay.
there are some strange things else but i dont know everything thats why I wont state them(for example as far as i know the list of people who gone there is still not open as far as i know)
if you dont think about any probability of provacation with this... well its pointless to have any conversation with you. you are just as disable to analyze as the rest of people who belive in every word from some tv channel, no matter what country is it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 20, 2014, 06:07:17 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 20, 2014, 04:37:39 pm
Yet more impeccable logic here, brought to you by Tovi. "you are brainwashed, ergo I stay here to be insulted." That's how I identify a retard, Tovi. You, in case you were wondering.

Strange. I though it was people who kept insulting and adding 0 to the discussion.

Different education I guess.



I see 0 news in the last 2 pages though, maybe its time to wait for events to unfold.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 06:13:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 20, 2014, 06:07:17 pm
Different education I guess.


Yes, definitely, thank god.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 20, 2014, 06:13:17 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 20, 2014, 11:00:16 am
No no, according to Panos it's fine if someone's trying to kill you as long as they're not very good at it.

No, no Panos would just stand still until he was shot a few times before he took any action.  Then he would only shoot back one time for each time he was hit because he is so honorable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 20, 2014, 06:23:05 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 20, 2014, 06:13:17 pm
No, no Panos would just stand still until he was shot a few times before he took any action.  Then he would only shoot back one time for each time he was hit because he is so honorable.

But panos fires with a mortar, remember? You only need to fire a few shells at them
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 20, 2014, 06:26:57 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 06:06:59 pm
average flightroute through the war zone? hm okay.
there are some strange things else but i dont know everything thats why I wont state them(for example as far as i know the list of people who gone there is still not open as far as i know)
if you dont think about any probability of provacation with this... well its pointless to have any conversation with you. you are just as disable to analyze as the rest of people who belive in every word from some tv channel, no matter what country is it.

You don't have to believe tv channels.  Just look at any flight tracking site for the last several months.  They will demonstrate that hundreds of flights used that flight path.  Was that poor judgement?  Yes it can be argued that it may have been. 

Or do you think all those sites are in on the conspiracy?  That just this Malaysian Airlines flight was sent in isolation to provoke a shoot down?  A plane that was transmitting it's flight information from it's transponder that showed it's identification and it's altitude.  Even raw data from radar without the transponder would show that the plane was too high (33,000 feet) to land in eastern Ukraine.  How could that provoke an attack?

Occam's Razor posits that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.  The Russian proxies had to make a quick decision to fire or not when they had a short detection window.  They thought they had another juicy Ukr target that they did not want to miss.  And they fucked it up.  Now they are trying to cover their tracks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on July 20, 2014, 06:51:50 pm
Behold! evil BUK :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 06:53:10 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 06:06:59 pm
average flightroute through the war zone? hm okay.
there are some strange things else but i dont know everything thats why I wont state them(for example as far as i know the list of people who gone there is still not open as far as i know)
if you dont think about any probability of provacation with this... well its pointless to have any conversation with you. you are just as disable to analyze as the rest of people who belive in every word from some tv channel, no matter what country is it.
There are a lot of probabilities of provocation in this conflict from both sides yes. But not in this planeshooting. Its just so simple and obvious. Anything more is just some silly conspiracytheory with almost no facts. That WAS an average flightroute that many civilianplanes took and sofar without any mishaps. And the leader of the rebels did post on socialnetworks of how his men shot down a plane almost at the moment when the aircraft crashed and they lied about not having the gear to shoot it down when even the locals admitted that they did and had pictures to prove it. Than they lied that they saw a Ukraine jet shooting down the plane. Which was also a obvious lie. And than they deleted all their posts on the social networks.

They just fucked up. What other things do you want to analyze here? The separatists lied about a lot of details because they got very scared, they had the technology to shoot it down, they basically admitted it, the plane had average people on board and the planes course and altitute was completely regular. Tell me please what other facts would you like to analyze? Seems to me you are more in denial.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 07:21:18 pm
It's hilarious how these people are suggesting it's not only possible, but probable, that somebody actually planned to send a civilian plane there to be shot down. jesus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 07:59:16 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 04:17:12 pm
Just quote 1 thing I said wrong (and that you can proove, of course).

Ok. Lets start
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2014, 10:04:53 am
About chocolate chip cookies : they just took the power in Ukraine after violent riots...
Here you claim that nаzis took the power in Ukraine. It wasn't true and still is not. Were there any reasons to speak about it even?

Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 04:43:16 pm
6th Us Fleet is coming toward Crimea. NATO's troops are already at Lviv. Units of tanks have been seen at the Poland's border.
The plan is : invasion of Ukrainia by Nato's troops, with the help of the local dictatorship.
NATO troops in Lviv and so on, ha.

Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Here you ban yourself from this thread. But you never left it. You just left the thread for THREE days, good job.

Quote from: Tovi on March 21, 2014, 11:32:22 pm
Yep. Fascist militias goes to National Guard, while regular army join pro-russian population. Ready for Yugoslavia 2.0 ?
Regular army is the main fighting force there. National Guard is reformed militarized part of Ukrainian Police. During the mobilization the needed part of it was fulfilled from reserve. Or do you think that all those "fascists from Right Sector" have military ranks?

Quote from: Tovi on March 22, 2014, 12:03:35 am
And why the army would remain loyal to an illegal government ? A government that forbide russian language. A government with no money to pay them.
I just wait and watch. You should not laugh.
Ukraine has never forbidden Russian language. And the army is still loyal, is anything wrong Tovi?

Quote from: Tovi on April 25, 2014, 10:27:25 am
Stupid, Russia had no interest for destabilization in Ukraine. But it's Brezinsky doctrine. Stop trolling please.
Does anyone still believe that Russia had no interest in that?

Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:24:18 am
Hundreds of Greystone mercenaries (ex-Blackwater/Academi) are actually at Odessa. They are slowly incorporated in Ukraine special forces to provoke troubles with pro-russian protesters (by shooting at them).
I live in Odessa and it was such a joke from you.

Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 12:50:21 am
Russia wants federalism in Ukraine, not annexion.
That's just something that I explained earlier. Only an idiot could believe that they wanted federalization, not the annexation. That's why they annexed Crimea and want to annex South-East. Crimea without South-East of Ukraine is a pain in the ass.

Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2014, 09:17:57 am
Greystone is a subsidiary of Academi. They are around 300 in Ukraine.
:lol: :cry:

Here are just 3 of your quotes for example. I don't need to comment them even, you change your opinion so often :rolleyes:
Quote from: Tovi on June 05, 2014, 08:25:53 pm
We all can see now that the Empire needs a war. Not Russia. Because Russia needs time.
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2014, 07:32:22 pm
The USA's goal is not war against Russia. It's to make Russia a rogue state under embargo like Iran.
Quote from: Tovi on April 13, 2014, 01:23:05 am
Anyway, US Corp. wants some fight with Russia. This is their last chance to win a war against Russia, China or Iran. Because, before 2020 the whole dollar system will collapse and then the imperial global army will be no more.

Quote from: Tovi on May 18, 2014, 01:04:06 pm
400 Academi's mercenaries are now around Slaviantsk for guerrilla operations.
These bloody Academi mercenaries are everywhere:lol:

Quote from: Tovi on June 13, 2014, 07:46:56 pm
My 2 cents on this picture :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

The "antiterrorist" forces unleashed by Kiev to ward off the independence of Donbass are led by the Pole Jerzy Dziewulski.
In this photo taken near Slavjansk last week, he is seen on the left-hand side sitting next to Alexander Turchinov (former intelligence chief who was then Acting President of Ukraine), in the center. The "anti-terrorist" operation was carried out under the supervision of Assistant Secretary of U.S. Defense, Derek Chollet.
This man has nothing to do with Jerzy Dziewulski. This is Ukrainian general Viktor Muzhenko visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Quote from: Tovi on June 22, 2014, 09:43:49 pm
But Russia have absolutly no interest to any intervention in Ukraine. This country is on bankrupty and no one want to pay for them.
Yeah, that's why Putin achieved ratification from Parliament for possible military intervention in Ukraine.

And so on. I didn't mention your completely incompetent messages about weaponry, NWO bullshit messages because I simply got bored commenting even these messages. Are you happy?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2014, 08:07:55 pm
Check and mate, Tovi. Can you please fuck off now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 20, 2014, 08:17:50 pm
Wow.....just wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leesin on July 20, 2014, 08:19:44 pm
Tovi just got shitted on like a Japanese porn star, just stop posting mate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on July 20, 2014, 08:21:04 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 06:06:59 pm
average flightroute through the war zone? hm okay.
there are some strange things else but i dont know everything thats why I wont state them(for example as far as i know the list of people who gone there is still not open as far as i know)
if you dont think about any probability of provacation with this... well its pointless to have any conversation with you. you are just as disable to analyze as the rest of people who belive in every word from some tv channel, no matter what country is it.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: Sure, netherlands government sent almost 200 citizens to "provoke" separatists... I like your choice of lectures  :wink: but you're really brainwashed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 20, 2014, 09:01:07 pm
How would those Netherlanders provoke separatists anyway? Do they have allergic reactions to marijuana? Afraid of green chemtrails?

Something like the aliens in Mars Attacks?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 09:05:26 pm
Quote from: Christo on July 20, 2014, 09:01:07 pm
How would those Netherlanders provoke separatists anyway? Do they have allergic reactions to marijuana? Afraid of green chemtrails?

Something like the aliens in Mars Attacks?

It's very common in Russian websites to find phrases like "Ukraine wants to Gayrope" and Gayropeans. And it's also very common to find associations of Netherlands with gays and weed. Also there was a delegation of anti-HIV medical scientists.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 20, 2014, 09:07:50 pm
Oh, right, I forgot that they are mostly homophobic and connect those two together. A really good point.

In that case I think there should be some airdrops around the area with some weed 'bombs', that should either make the seps calm the F down, or run back to Russia.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 11:30:24 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 20, 2014, 07:59:16 pm
Ok. Lets startHere you claim that nаzis took the power in Ukraine. It wasn't true and still is not. Were there any reasons to speak about it even? Just a question of point of vue.
NATO troops in Lviv and so on, ha. What do you expect ? Street parade and national anthem ?
Regular army is the main fighting force there. National Guard is reformed militarized part of Ukrainian Police. During the mobilization the needed part of it was fulfilled from reserve. Or do you think that all those "fascists from Right Sector" have military ranks? You deny that Pravy Sector joined National Guard ? The main fighting force is National Guard  The regular army was mostly in reserve. At least at the begining of the conflict. And you must admit I was right about the civil war.
Ukraine has never forbidden Russian language. And the army is still loyal, is anything wrong Tovi? Ok, they have not forbidden russian language, but it was their first intent. And about loyalty of the regular army, you seem not well informed about what happen in their ranks. Many of them give informations to the rebellion, or botch the equipment.
Does anyone still believe that Russia had no interest in that? And what is it exactly ? It could be interesting to read.
I live in Odessa and it was such a joke from you. What ? They did not visit you ? What bad guys they are !
That's just something that I explained earlier. Only an idiot could believe that they wanted federalization, not the annexation. That's why they annexed Crimea and want to annex South-East. Crimea without South-East of Ukraine is a pain in the ass.
 :lol: :cry: That's what your media says but you shouldn't believe it. Russia can't annex Ukraine without having a massive economic embargo. In the 21th century you don't have to invade directly a country to control it.

Here are just 3 of your quotes for example. I don't need to comment them even, you change your opinion so often :rolleyes:These bloody Academi mercenaries are everywhere:lol: It's Ukraine Gvt who decide to forbide russian language then retract. Not me.
This man has nothing to do with Jerzy Dziewulski. This is Ukrainian general Viktor Muzhenko visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Yeah, that's why Putin achieved ratification from Parliament for possible military intervention in Ukraine. That's fun because my country doesn't need any authorizations to invade any country. That Putin is such a noob.

And so on. I didn't mention your completely incompetent messages about weaponry, NWO bullshit messages because I simply got bored commenting even these messages. Are you happy? About tanks ? You had many time to demonstrate your great knowledge but you didn't... And you talk constantly about NWO and conspiracy, not me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 20, 2014, 11:37:51 pm
.slp ivoT
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 11:39:04 pm
Quote
SYDNEY, July 19 (RIA Novosti) - Turkey has raised the question of establishing a free trade zone with the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, Russian Economic Development Minister Alexei Ulyukayev said after talks with Turkish Economy Minister Nihat Zeybekci.

The Turkish minister put forward an initiative for closer cooperation with the Eurasian Customs Union, Ulyukayev said.

"We have discussed the possible forms of cooperation, including the formation of a free trade zone between the Customs Union and Turkey. We have agreed to create a working group and to begin a more detailed discussion of these possibilities and prospects in September," Ulyukayev said on the sidelines of the meeting of G20 trade ministers in Sydney, Australia.

Turkey currently has an agreement on free trade zone with the European Union.

Earlier the same day, Ulyukayev said that Turkey had suggested using national currencies in trade with Russia.

The trade volume between Russia and Turkey amounted to $32.7 billion in 2013. Russia is Turkey's second-largest trade partner after the European Union. Turkey ranks eighth among Russia's foreign trade partners.

Russian authorities considered renewing the talks on switching to national currencies in order to decrease the dependence on the US dollar amid tense relations with the West due to the Ukrainian crisis.

The Turkish side has also expressed interest in building a transport and logistics hub in Russia with links to sea ports, airports, railways and highways, Zeybekci said.

It's quite fun to see how US allies want to apply economical sanctions to Russia  :lol:
This is what happen when you constantly spit at your allies. US diplomacy sucks hard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 12:20:12 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 20, 2014, 11:30:24 pm


And once again, Tovi, you're just a pathetic idiot. Can you prove anything of what you say? What is this bullshit about forbidding Russian language? And why did you completely ignore only one point about Jerzy Dziewulski? And about tanks: I actually did. But you simply ignored it. Because you either ignore or try to make a joke of something when you can't even find more bullshit to say.
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 05, 2014, 12:04:17 pm
They're not exactly the same. You're incompetent in this question, like more than entirely.

That just proves one more time how incompetent you are. Where did you take this information even? Ukraine has around 2k of T64, same with Russia, both countries use some modifications and both countries are "saving" them in warehouses. And yes, they're different with a lot of modifications.
One more incompetent bullshit. First of all, where did you see PNK-6 on those tanks? Second, I didn't see a single T-64 with PNK-6 (though it's possible). You probably read something like a Wikipedia article not realizing that T-64, T-64BM and T-64E are 3 different things.

And it's just easy. You give some random bullshit, you never prove it and you claim that everyone is brainwashed by western media. And what is worse - you're not competent in pretty much everything you speak about. There are people who have no talents at all, but you're not one of them: you're perfect at giving random bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 21, 2014, 01:31:11 am
Can't argue with idiots.  Tovi you're just unbeatable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on July 21, 2014, 02:34:46 am
i just don't read it anymore for quite some time, all i do in this thread is i downvote some people  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 06:03:57 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 12:20:12 am
And once again, Tovi, you're just a pathetic idiot. Can you prove anything of what you say? What is this bullshit about forbidding Russian language?

Are you kidding ? http://rt.com/news/minority-language-law-ukraine-035/ And you talk about incompetence ?



What Russia says about the crash:
Quote
Some Western states and Kiev rushed to find Russian involvement in the MH17 crash having no evidence to back their claims, Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister told RT. He invited Ukraine to answer 10 questions to prove their commitment to an impartial probe.

Speaking to RT, Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov has criticized Western countries for jumping to conclusions just “24 hours after the crash” while there is no evidence.

“They try to show to the whole world that we are responsible for the crash. It is very strange that without any evidence my colleagues from western media would like to find somebody who is responsible for the crash,” Antonov said. “It seems to me that this is part of information warfare which has been started against the Russian Federation and armed forces.”

Instead of using the incident as the pretext for groundlessly blaming one of the sides, the catastrophe over Ukrainian sky should be used as a possibility to restart cooperation to “prevent such tragedies in the future.”

“As for me, I don’t want to use this opportunity to blame anybody. I would just like to raise few questions for my colleagues from the armed forces of Ukraine,” Antonov said. “I hope they try to answer the questions, it will be a good opportunity for us to realize where we are, whether there is a possibility for us to restart cooperation and to find who is really responsible for the tragedy.”

“Answers for these questions could help us find an opportunity to prevent such tragedies in the future,” the Deputy Defense Minister said.

A picture taken on July 17, 2014 shows the wreckages of the malaysian airliner carrying 295 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur after it crashed, near the town of Shaktarsk. (AFP Photo / Dominique my old friendet)

A picture taken on July 17, 2014 shows the wreckages of the malaysian airliner carrying 295 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur after it crashed, near the town of Shaktarsk.

    TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES

    1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

    2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

    3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?

    4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?

    5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?

    6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?

    7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?

    8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?

    9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?

    10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.


I think some of you should learn some things about the western concept of freedom of speech.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 06:29:39 am
You are the only one who is incompetent here. From all the people here you are the only one here reading actual propaganda, not information.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 06:38:07 am
Do you remember the map of the fights I've posted ? I've never said it was an official map, it has been drawn by a french military. How do you think he gets this informations ? In the media ? Did you see such things in your media ? Or even in russian media ?
Most important : can you bring such information instead of just insulting because my informations does not fit to your ideology ?



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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 06:57:56 am
No I cannot. Because I dont browse around random homepages and forums looking for evidence to back my ideology like you out of desperation. You are litterally scarping the internet for information to back your dumb ideology and you are finding some random shit that may very well be made-up by random users and people. Why do you think that your info is more legitimate than our sources? Just cause something is unofficial doesnt mean its good you know. Just something your conspiracytheoristbrain cant comprehend.

That map you posted might aswell have been a lie. But you did NOT question that. Noone has even confirmed that map to be true. Some guy just threw it. And yet you bluntly belive it and post it here. Yet you dont belive other things that do have a lot of confirmation. Tovi the kind of a person that you are is also a person who has been brainwashed. You agree so easly with news that agree with your ideology, but instantly question those that dont.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 21, 2014, 07:25:41 am
If you insist...
Sorry for ukrainian, but it is rather obvious what is what on the map.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 21, 2014, 09:05:37 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on July 21, 2014, 02:34:46 am
i just don't read it anymore for quite some time, all i do in this thread is i downvote some people  :D
and it does not work, keep downvote!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 09:16:13 am
Quote from: serr on July 21, 2014, 07:25:41 am
If you insist...
Sorry for ukrainian, but it is rather obvious what is what on the map.

(click to show/hide)

Good ! Someone else is able to post something interesting in this thread. I like that.
Last news : battle for Donestk begun
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 09:51:23 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 10:37:41 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 06:03:57 am
Are you kidding ? http://rt.com/news/minority-language-law-ukraine-035/ And you talk about incompetence ?

So do yo know what law was that? Ok, you post a link from RT (Russia Today for those who didn't know). Even if I follow that link: show me where exactly you found the word "forbid"? We had a conversation about this law in this thread and have already busted the myth about it. And you never read this law and you don't even know what law that was. Here is the quote from Ukrainian Constitution (article 10):

Quote
In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed.

Russian is actually the only language besides Ukrainian that has a unique mention in Ukrainian Constitution. And you once again post your shit without knowing anything.

Quote from: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 06:38:07 am
Most important : can you bring such information instead of just insulting because my informations does not fit to your ideology ?
Yes. And instead of actually giving some useful information we waste time to reveal your bullshit. Your information does not fit common sense, it has nothing to do with ideology.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 10:50:33 am
This is hypocrisy. You know perfectly what was the Svoboda goal with this reform. And that's the main reason for separatists to leave Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 10:58:16 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 10:50:33 am
This is hypocrisy. You know perfectly what was the Svoboda goal with this reform. And that's the main reason for separatists to leave Ukraine.

And what was the goal? It's a rhetorical question, I don't want to hear the answer. Do you realize that you can't forbid Russian language? Because it's written in the Constitution and no law can pass if it violates Constitution.

So even now your bullshit is transforming. From "they have forbidden -> they tried to forbid -> they wanted to forbid". And what about Jerzy Dziewulski. You ignored it yet again. Why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 21, 2014, 11:23:43 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 10:50:33 am
This is hypocrisy. You know perfectly what was the Svoboda goal with this reform. And that's the main reason for separatists to leave Ukraine.
Ukraine 2014
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Now let's compare Greece...
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Since you're French one might argue you're looking in the wrong direction. :?


Such radicalism. Much facism. Wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 12:29:54 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 10:50:33 am
This is hypocrisy. You know perfectly what was the Svoboda goal with this reform. And that's the main reason for separatists to leave Ukraine.
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on July 21, 2014, 01:17:03 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on July 20, 2014, 06:06:59 pm
average flightroute through the war zone? hm okay.
there are some strange things else but i dont know everything thats why I wont state them(for example as far as i know the list of people who gone there is still not open as far as i know)
if you dont think about any probability of provacation with this... well its pointless to have any conversation with you. you are just as disable to analyze as the rest of people who belive in every word from some tv channel, no matter what country is it.

Pretty standard tbh. I've taken many flights to India and one to Thailand in the past and those have flown over Iraq and Afghanistan. It's quite common for civilian aircraft to pass over conflict zones. There were 100's of flights using this zone daily so no, there is absolutely no conspiracy in this. It's a simply case of the separatists fucked up.

Anyhow Tovi is clearly a lunatic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 01:59:36 pm
Xant, you prove many times you're racist. But look, I'm french and I won't run. I'll stand and fight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on July 21, 2014, 02:03:01 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 01:59:36 pm
Xant, you prove many times you're racist. But look, I'm french and I won't run. I'll stand and fight.

Definitely a lunatic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 02:05:28 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 21, 2014, 01:59:36 pm
Xant, you prove many times you're racist. But look, I'm french and I won't run. I'll stand and fight.
If by "fight" you mean "not being able to keep your own word and staying to be insulted by literally everyone because you're the biggest retard in the history of cRPG", then we have different definitions of the word "fight."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 21, 2014, 02:09:51 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 21, 2014, 02:19:05 pm
Dont you see he is too stubborn?  :P



I salvaged one information from past 3-4 pages about the on-going forum catfight : battle of Donetsk.
Whats happening there?


And:

Quote
(click to show/hide)

Can someone translate the most important colour code since I cant type cyrillic to be translated if I cant copy/paste?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 02:25:52 pm
Standard reply to Tovi should be just quoting his self-ban message to him every time he tries to spout more bullshit. Maybe he'll realize, one of these days, that nobody actually believes a single thing he says and hence his posts are useless for anything other than getting insulted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on July 21, 2014, 02:36:03 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 21, 2014, 02:19:05 pm
And:

Can someone translate the most important colour code since I cant type cyrillic to be translated if I cant copy/paste?  :mrgreen:

Here for you :  :wink:
(click to show/hide)

FrenchLove

Edit: i see a red penis in the small map of global Ukraine.
No homo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 02:52:31 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 21, 2014, 02:19:05 pm
Can someone translate the most important colour code since I cant type cyrillic to be translated if I cant copy/paste?  :mrgreen:

Here, I tried to translate the most important info.

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Butan on July 21, 2014, 02:19:05 pm
Dont you see he is too stubborn?  :P

He's not stubborn, he's insane.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 05:49:15 pm
Some info from Russian officials:
1) During this period in air there were three passenger planes, including "Boeing 777". Besides, the Russian control devices recorded ascent of the plane of the Ukrainian Air Force, allegedly Su-25, in the direction of the Malaysian Boeing. Su-25 from "Boeing" was about three to five kilometers. Kiev officials said that 17th July there wasn't any military airplanes.
2) The Russian military showed also space pictures of an arrangement of the Ukrainian Buk-1 complexes in the southeast of the country, claiming that in day of crash of "Boeing" air defense group of Ukraine near Donetsk totaled "three-four complexes", russian question was why there were Buk-1 if rebels don't have any planes.
3) To Donetsk "Boeing" went on the planned route, but further deviated a route to the north. The maximum deviation from the left border of a corridor was 14 km. Further maneuver on plane was returned to a route. What served as the exit reason for route borders, it will be possible to tell precisely only after interpretation of flight recorders
4) According to the statement of representatives of the USA, they have pictures from space, confirming that rocket firing towards the plane was made by militants, but nobody didn't see these pictures. If the American side has pictures from this satellite, we would ask to provide them on consideration of the international community. Accident it or not, but time of accident and time of supervision by this satellite coincide.
Don't blame me that I'm dumb or smth, I just write what was on briefing
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 05:56:54 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 05:49:15 pm
russian question was why there were Buk-1 if rebels don't have any planes
Probably because Russia has planes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:03:14 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 21, 2014, 05:56:54 pm
Probably because Russia has planes
I allowed that somebody will say this phrase, well maybe that is the reason
But imho it doesn't pull on the good reason.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on July 21, 2014, 06:07:56 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:03:14 pm
I allowed that somebody will say this phrase, well maybe that is the reason
But imho it doesn't pull on the good reason.

jesus crist show me one army in the world that has no anti aircraft defences. even our pitiful army in central europe has rocket systems that can down planes from 30 kms and guess what - they are deployed though we're not in war with anybody atm omg.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on July 21, 2014, 06:13:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 05:49:15 pm
Some info from Russian officials:
1) During this period in air there were three passenger planes, including "Boeing 777". Besides, the Russian control devices recorded ascent of the plane of the Ukrainian Air Force, allegedly Su-25, in the direction of the Malaysian Boeing. Su-25 from "Boeing" was about three to five kilometers. Kiev officials said that 17th July there wasn't any military airplanes.
2) The Russian military showed also space pictures of an arrangement of the Ukrainian Buk-1 complexes in the southeast of the country, claiming that in day of crash of "Boeing" air defense group of Ukraine near Donetsk totaled "three-four complexes", russian question was why there were Buk-1 if rebels don't have any planes.
3) To Donetsk "Boeing" went on the planned route, but further deviated a route to the north. The maximum deviation from the left border of a corridor was 14 km. Further maneuver on plane was returned to a route. What served as the exit reason for route borders, it will be possible to tell precisely only after interpretation of flight recorders
4) According to the statement of representatives of the USA, they have pictures from space, confirming that rocket firing towards the plane was made by militants, but nobody didn't see these pictures. If the American side has pictures from this satellite, we would ask to provide them on consideration of the international community. Accident it or not, but time of accident and time of supervision by this satellite coincide.
Don't blame me that I'm dumb or smth, I just write what was on briefing

Even if there was a Ukrainian plane in the air as well, it's still a massive cock up from the separatists.

Any competent military will have anti-air systems. And it's not surprising here with Russia potentially involved.

Flight paths naturally deviate due to several conditions. You can even check this on flight trackers on that route. The lines naturally aren't in a solid block but are spread over a relatively wide space due to these deviations. 14km is nothing when you're 30km in the air.

Even before any confirmation of those photos most 'experts' confirmed that the US would be able to get such images as they usually have satellite data/images of rocket launches of such capability. As to why they haven't released them if indeed they do have them, well no doubt they are classified and wouldn't want to release them to the wider community. Tbh it serves no purpose any how. The weight of this is already massively against the separatists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:14:00 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on July 21, 2014, 06:07:56 pm
jesus crist show me one army in the world that has no anti aircraft defences. even our pitiful army in central europe has rocket systems that can down planes from 30 kms and guess what - they are deployed though we're not in war with anybody atm omg.
And what, this buks were transferred to the East, the question is why. Maybe Kiev really waits that Russia will start to bomb Ukraine by military planes. Well then I can understand the transportation of these complexes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on July 21, 2014, 06:17:14 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:14:00 pm
And what, this buks were transferred to the East, the question is why. Maybe Kiev really waits that Russia will start to bomb Ukraine by military planes. Well then I can understand the transportation of these complexes.

hmmmmmmmm why were they moved east and not west to lets say borders with slovakia..... only ingenious military masterminds can solve this complicated puzzle.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:27:09 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on July 21, 2014, 06:13:39 pm
Even if there was a Ukrainian plane in the air as well, it's still a massive cock up from the separatists.
Well yes I agree, but I want some solid prooves, I saw only some video on youtube and some pages on the social sites.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 06:34:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:27:09 pm
Well yes I agree, but I want some solid prooves, I saw only some video on youtube and some pages on the social sites.
Solid proof of what, exactly? That Ukraine doesn't fear an air attack from Slovakia? How do you even know that they were moved from anywhere and aren't always stationed around the eastern border?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:40:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 21, 2014, 06:34:33 pm
Solid proof of what, exactly? That Ukraine doesn't fear an air attack from Slovakia? How do you even know that they were moved from anywhere and aren't always stationed around the eastern border?
Beauchamp, I found ingenious military mastermind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 06:52:02 pm
ahahahhaah
Latvia wants to play with big boys?   :)

http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/news/press-releases/2014/july/21-1/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 21, 2014, 07:02:58 pm
What about it?

Baltic States have always had a growing list of Russian persona non grata, this is nothing new.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 07:22:10 pm
If somebody wants to listen russian official brieffing
http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=5088@morfVideoAudioFile with english translation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 07:27:31 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 21, 2014, 07:02:58 pm
What about it?

Baltic States have always had a growing list of Russian persona non grata, this is nothing new.
stronk!   :)
(click to show/hide)

Who is next?  Matreshka or Cheburashka?  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 07:31:58 pm
So? Mybe? Who really cares about those ruskies anyway? lol, you so dumb Yarl.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 07:37:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 06:40:18 pm
Beauchamp, I found ingenious military mastermind.
Did you just manage to completely miss what both I and Beauchamp said and then try to use it as some sort of a... I don't even know where you're trying to go with this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 21, 2014, 07:39:50 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 07:27:31 pm
stronk!   :)
(click to show/hide)

Who is next?  Matreshka or Cheburashka?  :)
I'm failing to see your point? They shouldn't have been banned, just because they're outdated Russian pop singers or whatever they are?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 07:40:56 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 07:31:58 pm
So? Mybe? Who really cares about those ruskies anyway?
Exactly. Nobody  :)  except Latvia 

Quote
lol, you so dumb Yarl.
Nope    :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 07:47:06 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 21, 2014, 07:37:05 pm
Did you just manage to completely miss what both I and Beauchamp said and then try to use it as some sort of a... I don't even know where you're trying to go with this.
No I didn't missed. Special for you I will explain. With Beauchamp I talked about transportation of BUKs. All exact prooves that Ukranian Buks changed their locations on 17th of July you can find in this Video http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=5088@morfVideoAudioFile
With Overdriven I talked about separatists' fault and said that I agree with him but I want solid prooves. I can't understand why you thought that I talked with Overdriven about Slovakia. Read carefully) any questions?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 21, 2014, 07:51:10 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 07:40:56 pm
Exactly. Nobody  :)  except Latvia 
Actually, you seem to care the most.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 08:02:28 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 21, 2014, 07:51:10 pm
Actually, you seem to care the most.

Breaking news:
America/ Europe banned some Putin's friends, banks and stuff.
Latvia banned some outdated shitty pop singers

just made me laugh :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 08:10:44 pm
I always laugh when I think that Latvia surpasses Russia in many things. Like human rights etc.... Kinda hilarious that your society has exsisted for so long, has an excellent geographical position and is still totally corrupted and shit compared to what newer countries have.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 21, 2014, 08:12:40 pm
Everyone's doing his part.

You Russian fellows took a look at the Russian stockmarket lately.
Weak sanctions so weak...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 21, 2014, 08:22:36 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 07:47:06 pm
No I didn't missed. Special for you I will explain. With Beauchamp I talked about transportation of BUKs. All exact prooves that Ukranian Buks changed their locations on 17th of July you can find in this Video http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=5088@morfVideoAudioFile
With Overdriven I talked about separatists' fault and said that I agree with him but I want solid prooves. I can't understand why you thought that I talked with Overdriven about Slovakia. Read carefully) any questions?
How does that video again prove that the BUKs changed their location?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 08:31:12 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 08:10:44 pm
I always laugh when I think that Latvia surpasses Russia in many things. Like human rights etc.... Kinda hilarious that your society has exsisted for so long, has an excellent geographical position and is still totally corrupted and shit compared to what newer countries have.
Well, Tibe for president of Russia, I would like to see how you would fight against Russian mafia in 90s and 00s, totally remove the corruption on this huge territory in 10 years. I would like to say that in 90s 95% of state ownership were given to private ownership, especially to Russian mafia, interesting how could you take it back, Tibe? Sorry, master Tibe) Stop writing political bullshit please about my country, Russian Federation is only 23 years old and more then half of it was controlled by Mafia. It is not perfect, everybody knows that, people in our country blame authorities because they rob, but this became from 90s, everybody robbed, I was robbed many times on the streets, I robbed on the streets it was common thing, that was time of Mafia, people were killed on the streets, beaten and so on, militia was mafia too, they don't act anyhow. Now it is much much much better then in 90s. I think Putin robbed too, but well I can say is our russian mentality, and a lot of time must go to change it. And I can say it changes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 08:31:47 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 21, 2014, 08:22:36 pm
How does that video again prove that the BUKs changed their location?
watch it carefully
on 14th of July they were on the base
on 17th of July they were on the route of boeing
on 18th of July they moved out from the area where boeing crashed
it doesn't prove anything, just russian authorities asked Kiev, why this BUKs changed locations
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 08:32:19 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 08:10:44 pm
I always laugh when I think that Latvia surpasses Russia in many things. Like human rights etc.... Kinda hilarious that your society has exsisted for so long, has an excellent geographical position and is still totally corrupted and shit compared to what newer countries have.
yea yea who cares?  I don't. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 21, 2014, 08:33:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 05:49:15 pm
1) During this period in air there were three passenger planes, including "Boeing 777". Besides, the Russian control devices recorded ascent of the plane of the Ukrainian Air Force, allegedly Su-25, in the direction of the Malaysian Boeing. Su-25 from "Boeing" was about three to five kilometers. Kiev officials said that 17th July there wasn't any military airplanes.

Possibly.
Anyway, I dont believe the rebels intentionally shot down a civilian air plane. They have mistaken it for ukrainian military plane, the fact that there were some around when the crash occured is only detail.


Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 05:49:15 pm
2) The Russian military showed also space pictures of an arrangement of the Ukrainian Buk-1 complexes in the southeast of the country, claiming that in day of crash of "Boeing" air defense group of Ukraine near Donetsk totaled "three-four complexes", russian question was why there were Buk-1 if rebels don't have any planes.

I also think, as Xant said, that those SAM bataillons are there "in case". Whether it is in case that rebels captures airplanes, or other countries intervenes.
The army of Ukraine includes SAMs so why not deploy them around the battlefields? It would be dangerous to forget about air protection. Air superiority is the only advantage of the Ukrainian army against the rebels, and they must protect it.


Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 05:49:15 pm
3) To Donetsk "Boeing" went on the planned route, but further deviated a route to the north. The maximum deviation from the left border of a corridor was 14 km. Further maneuver on plane was returned to a route. What served as the exit reason for route borders, it will be possible to tell precisely only after interpretation of flight recorders

I'm not a pilot expert, but the deviation which ultimely caused the demise of many civilians, could have been a "shortcut" to get to destination faster. Whether it was sanctionned by the company or the pilots (or a secret FBI operation :P), one may wonder, but I dont think it was directly manipulated to cause diplomatic backlash... what is sure is that some pro-Kiev/anti-russian politicians must be really happy about it.




on 4) I guess its just the usual fight "prove me wrong". Same thing happened with Russian/American spies caught in Ukraine.




Quote from: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 02:52:31 pm
Here, I tried to translate the most important info.

(click to show/hide)

Thanks it was helpful.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 08:35:16 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 08:32:19 pm
yea yea who cares?  I don't.
To be honest a lot of people do. Why do you think half of the world goes instantly Anti-Russia whenever something happens? Cause you shit country with shit attitude.

Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 08:31:12 pm
(click to show/hide)
All you basically did was say that you have done better than before but you are still shit. I didnt argue about that lol. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 08:40:40 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 08:35:16 pm
All you basically did was say that you have done better than before but you are still shit. I didnt argue about that lol. :rolleyes:
I don't like when you say that we are shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 08:41:28 pm
Okay I admit it. I may have gone too far there. I am sorry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 21, 2014, 08:45:04 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 21, 2014, 08:35:16 pm
To be honest a lot of people do. Why do you think half of the world goes instantly Anti-Russia whenever something happens? Cause you shit country with shit attitude.
Why I have to care about what half of the world thinks about my country? You are full of hate to Russia. I don't blame any country.  I don't have time for that :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 21, 2014, 09:25:45 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 09:29:45 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 21, 2014, 09:25:45 pm
(click to show/hide)
Well yes, so government of those countries wasn't too strong to stop them. So billlions billions of dollars were robbed from Russia and transferred to Europe and USA too because our government couldn't stop them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 09:34:42 pm
OSCE
(click to show/hide)
Interesting is the head of the Ukrainian government’s security operation in Luhansk province saying truth or not?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 11:10:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 09:34:42 pm
OSCE
(click to show/hide)
Interesting is the head of the Ukrainian government’s security operation in Luhansk province saying truth or not?

I don't know. There is no doubt that Ukrainian military forces definitely "bombed" civilian blocks, doesn't matter they deny it or not. On the other hand there is no doubt of separatists using Grads and also bombing civilians. Basically this collateral damage comes from both sides and it looks like none of them really regrets because both sides keep doing it and it's a part of war, I feel sorry for the people who live there. But I'm pretty sure that none of the sides wants these deaths of civilians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 22, 2014, 12:25:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 21, 2014, 08:31:12 pm
Well, Tibe for president of Russia, I would like to see how you would fight against Russian mafia in 90s and 00s, totally remove the corruption on this huge territory in 10 years. I would like to say that in 90s 95% of state ownership were given to private ownership, especially to Russian mafia, interesting how could you take it back, Tibe? Sorry, master Tibe) Stop writing political bullshit please about my country, Russian Federation is only 23 years old and more then half of it was controlled by Mafia. It is not perfect, everybody knows that, people in our country blame authorities because they rob, but this became from 90s, everybody robbed, I was robbed many times on the streets, I robbed on the streets it was common thing, that was time of Mafia, people were killed on the streets, beaten and so on, militia was mafia too, they don't act anyhow. Now it is much much much better then in 90s. I think Putin robbed too, but well I can say is our russian mentality, and a lot of time must go to change it. And I can say it changes.
There was this one suitable quote for just this occasion: excuses are like assholes - every russianbody has one and they all stink. Just the same with annexing/invading neighboring countries. Happened 3 times already, excuses were bullshit, they still are and they still stink.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2014, 01:46:58 am
Test message for Beauchamp :


The sky is blue, and the sun is yellow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 06:40:05 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 21, 2014, 11:10:09 pm
I don't know. There is no doubt that Ukrainian military forces definitely "bombed" civilian blocks,

Finally, you admit...


Well, Obama blame Russia and Putin about the crash (without any proof), and will add sanctions... The US diplomacy is as predictable as their movies.
No flax of anthrax or unburned passport this time ? It doesn't matter, we don't need these shits (like Tibe would says), Putin is the new DEVIL AXIS. And that's easy enough to understand for dumbs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: HardRice on July 22, 2014, 06:49:54 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 06:40:05 am
as predictable as their movies.

Get this man an M. Night Shyamalan movie ASAP
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 10:04:14 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 06:40:05 am
Finally, you admit...


Well, Obama blame Russia and Putin about the crash (without any proof), and will add sanctions... The US diplomacy is as predictable as their movies.
No flax of anthrax or unburned passport this time ? It doesn't matter, we don't need these shits (like Tibe would says), Putin is the new DEVIL AXIS. And that's easy enough to understand for dumbs.

What do you mean finally I admit? It's a military conflict and there are no conflicts without collateral damage. If you read it as I admit that Ukrainian troops are bombing civilian blocks for killing civilians then you read it wrong. Most of the time we were discussing damage to civilians we were discussing who did that and how, not why. Because I can't believe that any of sides is trying to kill civilians on purpose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 10:08:21 am
I didn't say that too. I said they aimed at the industrial areas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 22, 2014, 10:09:34 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 10:04:14 am
What do you mean finally I admit? It's a military conflict and there are no conflicts without collateral damage. If you read it as I admit that Ukrainian troops are bombing civilian blocks for killing civilians then you read it wrong. Most of the time we were discussing damage to civilians we were discussing who did that and how, not why. Because I can't believe that any of sides is trying to kill civilians on purpose.
why not if it reduces unemployment in the country, and pension payments :twisted: , bring fear, reduces support terrorists
Quote from: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 10:08:21 am
I didn't say that too. I said they aimed at the industrial areas.
they want to destroy the gardens so locals cant fed terrorists  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 10:15:36 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 10:08:21 am
I didn't say that too. I said they aimed at the industrial areas.

Who cares what you say? You don't prove your words and when you try to prove them - you fail hard. I guess I've proven that a lot of your information is just pure bullshit. And as I've said you either ignored it, tried to make a joke of it or said that it's a "point of vue".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 22, 2014, 11:38:39 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 06:40:05 am
Finally, you admit...


Well, Obama blame Russia and Putin about the crash (without any proof), and will add sanctions... The US diplomacy is as predictable as their movies.
No flax of anthrax or unburned passport this time ? It doesn't matter, we don't need these shits (like Tibe would says), Putin is the new DEVIL AXIS. And that's easy enough to understand for dumbs.

Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 03:10:22 pm
Military Expert Robert Perry USA
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2014, 03:39:20 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 03:10:22 pm
Military Expert Robert Perry USA
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
"Military expert"? Really?  :lol:

Being a journalist makes you a military expert now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 03:42:02 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 22, 2014, 03:39:20 pm
"Military expert"? Really?  :lol:

Being a journalist makes you a military expert now?
As I know he is a journalist who specified in military questions P.S. military expert was writen on the russian site, so I don't know is he really expert
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2014, 03:45:39 pm
Well, a Russian site would call him a military expert, but he's not. He's just a journalist. An anti-US one at that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2014, 03:47:45 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 03:10:22 pm
Military Expert Robert Perry USA
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

A bit too russia-leading article but still got some info in it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 03:48:28 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 22, 2014, 03:45:39 pm
Well, a Russian site would call him a military expert, but he's not. He's just a journalist. An anti-US one at that.
Ok, and what do you want to say then?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 22, 2014, 03:53:48 pm
A spy satellite can distinguish uniforms now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 03:56:14 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 22, 2014, 03:53:48 pm
A spy satellite can distinguish uniforms now?
Some kind of them can. Satellites of optical reconnaissance at a clear weather under a certain corner of a terrestrial surface can record a machine number, it is known. There are still satellites of infrared investigation, they can distinguish various subjects on a terrestrial surface more accurately.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 03:57:28 pm
I started reading it and then just stopped at the phrase "Kiev regime". Seriously, even fucking Putin himself doesn't call it "Kiev regime". Just another "cool story" for Tovi-like boys, nothing more.

Added: oh lol  :lol:
Quote
In recognition of the key role played by the neo-nаzis, who are ideological descendants of Ukrainian militias that collaborated with the nаzi SS in World War II, the new regime gave these far-right nationalists control of several ministries, including the office of national security which is under the command of longtime neo-nаzi activist Andriy Parubiy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 22, 2014, 03:59:10 pm
Huh.

What do US spy sattelites matter anyway, in this case? Strelkov dug this hole himself, lmao.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 04:04:16 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 03:57:28 pm
I started reading it and then just stopped at the phrase "Kiev regime". Seriously, even fucking Putin himself doesn't call it "Kiev regime". Just another "cool story" for Tovi-like boys, nothing more.

Added: oh lol  :lol:
Yes Tovi must like it. But behind stupid words can be the truth. Maybe today USA will put shots on the internet. Just want to see them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 04:19:51 pm
Kinda funny that Russia calls other countries governments fascist, while they themselves have more extremists in the government than probably entire Europes nations combined.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 04:26:11 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 04:04:16 pm
Yes Tovi must like it. But behind stupid words can be the truth. Maybe today USA will put shots on the internet. Just want to see them.

Such articles impose some certain logic. Because if US will not put shots to the public it would potentially mean that these shots compromise Ukrainian military forces. No matter if it's true or not. And even if they give such shots, what would they prove to convinced people? They will just cry that shots are fake or will find some conspiracy things. You know, simple minds "eat" this kind of information easy. Take Panos as an example, just a random picture with fake facts convinced him that SBU made a video about plane crash 2 days before the crash itself. And of course he didn't check anything because this version is acceptable for him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2014, 04:48:19 pm
Yep, war of information confuse everything :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 04:50:49 pm
The sanctions are hitting Russia hard now. Putins closest people have even started to give statements. Putin is quite fucked now. The international community wants his head on a stick and russian people consider him weak cause he didnt start a fullscale war against Ukraine and their "na zis" cause na zis are bad. But he cant start a war cause he is already walking on very thin ice. Kinda hilarious how they went through all this trouble to make propaganda to make sure Kiev's goverment looked like the most evil facist goverment on the planet, to gather public support. Now that they got the public support, they still cant invade and the public turned against them due to their inability to act. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 04:54:40 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 22, 2014, 04:48:19 pm
Yep, war of information confuse everything :?

It does but it's a reason to filter information, not to boycott everything. And if you have unclear info - don't spread it as absolute truth at least.

I suggest to ban Panos from forums because he's neonаzi (he's on the left, suggesting to start full assault on Ukraine), Tovi is in the middle. Picture is 4realz, I swear on me mum.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2014, 05:08:13 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 04:50:49 pm
The sanctions are hitting Russia hard now. Putins closest people have even started to give statements. Putin is quite fucked now. The international community wants his head on a stick and russian people consider him weak cause he didnt start a fullscale war against Ukraine and their "na zis" cause na zis are bad. But he cant start a war cause he is already walking on very thin ice. Kinda hilarious how they went through all this trouble to make propaganda to make sure Kiev's goverment looked like the most evil facist goverment on the planet, to gather public support. Now that they got the public support, they still cant invade and the public turned against them due to their inability to act. :lol:

I think you're over-exagerating a few things, especially how russians consider Putin weak: he's still in the 80%+ popularity zone since almost forever. Some dislike the fact he's not going "balls to the walls" with Ukraine, but not every russians is a brainwashed warmongerer, some appreciate he didnt start a war against the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on July 22, 2014, 05:08:42 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 04:54:40 pm
It does but it's a reason to filter information, not to boycott everything. And if you have unclear info - don't spread it as absolute truth at least.

I suggest to ban Panos from forums because he's neonаzi (he's on the left, suggesting to start full assault on Ukraine), Tovi is in the middle. Picture is 4realz, I swear on me mum.
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Oh we are back in 1945' while Stalin was "erasing" people from photos.  :lol:
Such skill Dave, i luv it ! +1 :D (lol at malaka)
Dave iz pro in ezeryfings !

Games & propaganda ! God damn it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2014, 05:10:50 pm
Didnt even notice Panos head  :D  he fits in very well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 05:18:45 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 22, 2014, 05:08:13 pm
I think you're over-exagerating a few things, especially how russians consider Putin weak: he's still in the 80%+ popularity zone since almost forever. Some dislike the fact he's not going "balls to the walls" with Ukraine, but not every russians is a brainwashed warmongerer, some appreciate he didnt start a war against the world.
I dont think I overexagerated. It just sounded like i did. Ofcourse I know putins still popular and that not everyone there is a warmongerer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 05:34:21 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 18, 2014, 08:38:54 pm
Well the black boxes are taken to Moscow.
So maybe later we will know new facts of crash
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 06:03:15 pm
New info yes. But actual truth? Doubtful. There was also some info that russian experts who claimed to be civilians were at the crashsite and denied access to any other experts for 4 days. Picking out evidence. Also OSCE viewers claimed that some pieces of the plane had been clearly sawed off. If that all is true than those black boxes are not legitimate ones. If someone went through all this trouble to hide something, than its kinda obvious they have something serius to hide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 06:15:21 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 06:03:15 pm
New info yes. But actual truth? Doubtful. There was also some info that russian experts who claimed to be civilians were at the crashsite and denied access to any other experts for 4 days. Picking out evidence. Also OSCE viewers claimed that some pieces of the plane had been clearly sawed off. If that all is true than those black boxes are not legitimate ones. If someone went through all this trouble to hide something, than its kinda obvious they have something serius to hide.
Yes I also heard that russian experts who claimed to be civilians were at the crashsite and denied access to any other experts for 4 days, on russian TV it is said that Kiev doesn't let experts to visit the place of the crash. Also here the video with the comment of author "Is it here "nobody is allowed"? Journalists weren't let only when bodies were loading. About bodies - and how long should they lie on the open-air?"
(click to show/hide)
New info about BUK
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 07:33:38 pm
Yeah, the mentioned photo with 312 looks like a fuck up of SBU, it's a Ukrainian BUK and the photo is not appropriate. The one which is on a truck with blue stripe is the one that was used by separatists I believe.

Anyway, I don't like this journalist. Because trying to be such a mythbuster and playing obviously for one side is just nothing. If he reviewed both sides' fakes his channel would be 90% of videos about central Russian TV channels.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on July 22, 2014, 07:37:58 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 04:54:40 pm
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LOL seems legit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2014, 07:43:47 pm
Any chances the black boxes could have been tampered with, but without ways to know it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 07:44:03 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 07:33:38 pm
Yeah, the mentioned photo with 312 looks like a fuck up of SBU, it's a Ukrainian BUK and the photo is not appropriate. The one which is on a truck with blue stripe is the one that was used by separatists I believe.
Didn't get sorry what is the truck with blue stripe?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 22, 2014, 07:57:42 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 22, 2014, 07:43:47 pm
Any chances the black boxes could have been tampered with, but without ways to know it?

Can flight data recorders be hacked? (http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/7794/can-flight-data-recorders-be-hacked)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 08:03:37 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 07:44:03 pm
Didn't get sorry what is the truck with blue stripe?

This is a discussed picture by that journalist Anatoliy Shariy. As you can see, trucks are different, the first one is white with blue stripe, the second one is just white. This is because the 2nd photo is an old picture of Ukrainian BUK, this picture was made in March.
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And this is a picture of the claimed BUK of separatists (with 1 missing rocket)
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2014, 08:11:12 pm
Quote from: Christo on July 22, 2014, 07:57:42 pm
Can flight data recorders be hacked? (http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/7794/can-flight-data-recorders-be-hacked)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 22, 2014, 08:12:42 pm
lel Xent, puns are my favorite.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 08:17:35 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 08:03:37 pm
(click to show/hide)
Thanks I understood, the truck with blue stripe is filmed in Krasnoarmeysk, this we know from adress  - Dnepropetrovskaya, 34 on the banner. And Krasnoarmeysk is under Ukranian army since 11th of May. That what Ministry of Defence of the RF said and accused Kiev in fake facts and false propoganda
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2014, 08:33:08 pm
Quote from: Christo on July 22, 2014, 08:12:42 pm
lel Xent, puns are my favorite.

Are you mad? Dont ever encourage a Xant!  :shock: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 22, 2014, 08:34:03 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 22, 2014, 08:33:08 pm
Are you mad? Dont ever encourage a Xant!  :shock: :mrgreen:

  :lol:

:twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 08:34:52 pm
That pun was so lame that it was actually a good one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 08:37:37 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 04:54:40 pm
It does but it's a reason to filter information, not to boycott everything. And if you have unclear info - don't spread it as absolute truth at least.

I suggest to ban Panos from forums because he's neonаzi (he's on the left, suggesting to start full assault on Ukraine), Tovi is in the middle. Picture is 4realz, I swear on me mum.
(click to show/hide)

Is it took from your personal porn picture collection ?

Quote from: Kuujis on July 22, 2014, 12:25:07 am
There was this one suitable quote for just this occasion: excuses are like assholes - every russianbody has one and they all stink. Just the same with annexing/invading neighboring countries. Happened 3 times already, excuses were bullshit, they still are and they still stink.
When I read that kind of answer, I'm proud to be insulted by racists like you and Tibe or Xant.
Dave, if you do not consider Svoboda like a nazee party, it means your are dumb or accomplice. This is a far right governement and it explains the actual violences.
The last election proove nothing, and you know it, because all the eastern ukrainians didn't vote.
Did this gvt ever tried to make peace or to negociate ? No, they just want to legitimate their power by force, as they did at Maidan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 08:40:56 pm
Guys I have an idea! If we ignore him, mybe he will just leave.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 08:45:56 pm
No, sorry. But it's better than your usual stupid insults. You get older guy ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leesin on July 22, 2014, 08:53:26 pm
Never really looked, but is there an ignore feature so we can all put Tovi on ignore and his posts come up blank to us?.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on July 22, 2014, 08:56:51 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2014, 08:57:33 pm
Yup, profile, Buddies/Ignore List, Edit Ignore List.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 09:03:17 pm
Heh. It worked. Wow. Im less disturbed now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leesin on July 22, 2014, 09:28:05 pm
Yeah, hopefully everyone does it and no one replies to him in here, it will make for better reading.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 22, 2014, 10:10:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 08:17:35 pm
Thanks I understood, the truck with blue stripe is filmed in Krasnoarmeysk, this we know from adress  - Dnepropetrovskaya, 34 on the banner. And Krasnoarmeysk is under Ukranian army since 11th of May. That what Ministry of Defence of the RF said and accused Kiev in fake facts and false propoganda

Careful, russian wall of text inside:
http://www.stopfake.org/fejk-ukrainskaya-armiya-transportirovala-zrk-buk-bez-odnoj-rakety-po-podkontrolnoj-territorii/

Long story short: it is difficult to see address on the banner, at least I can't find it there. Plus there is something that looks like trolleybus wires and there are no trolleybuses in Krasnoarmeysk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 10:26:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 22, 2014, 08:17:35 pm
Thanks I understood, the truck with blue stripe is filmed in Krasnoarmeysk, this we know from adress  - Dnepropetrovskaya, 34 on the banner. And Krasnoarmeysk is under Ukranian army since 11th of May. That what Ministry of Defence of the RF said and accused Kiev in fake facts and false propoganda

Yes, that's what I heard from Russian media as well. But it's a lie. First of all - can you show me this address in that video? I tried hard but I didn't find it and I didn't find any proofs/screenshots about this. Also there are a lot of other facts that make it obvious that it's not Krasnoarmeysk (like there are no trolleybuses in Krasnoarmeysk, and the street is different and so on). You can read the local website of Krasnoarmeysk busting this myth. http://www.06239.com.ua/news/581633

Here's a picture of a billboard, no idea how they found Dnepropetrovskaya, 34 on the banner.
(click to show/hide)

 There is information from locals of Torez that the video was shot in their town (from where the plane was shot most likely, it's controlled by separatists)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 10:38:21 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 22, 2014, 08:37:37 pm
Is it took from your personal porn picture collection ?
When I read that kind of answer, I'm proud to be insulted by racists like you and Tibe or Xant.
Dave, if you do not consider Svoboda like a nazee party, it means your are dumb or accomplice. This is a far right governement and it explains the actual violences.
The last election proove nothing, and you know it, because all the eastern ukrainians didn't vote.
Did this gvt ever tried to make peace or to negociate ? No, they just want to legitimate their power by force, as they did at Maidan.

I will answer your stupid questions when you'll prove your words and prove that this is Jerzy Dziewulski.
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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 10:41:37 pm
Damn it dave! Dont get sucked in. This is what he wants.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 11:12:25 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 22, 2014, 10:41:37 pm
Damn it dave! Dont get sucked in. This is what he wants.

You didn't look under a spoiler :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:30:27 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 10:38:21 pm
I will answer your stupid questions when you'll prove your words and prove that this is Jerzy Dziewulski.
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(click to show/hide)

Ok,I can't prove it, but you can't prove he's not.
Anyway, Poland is the strongest NATO member in the area, and they really don't like Russia. It would be very strange that they don't help the new power in Kiev by any means.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: HardRice on July 23, 2014, 06:33:14 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:30:27 am
Ok,I can't prove it, but you can't prove he's not.
I can't prove you're gay, but you can't prove you're not.

Seriously though, that's an awful argument.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 23, 2014, 08:35:35 am
Quote from: HardRice on July 23, 2014, 06:33:14 am
I can't prove you're gay, but you can't prove you're not.

Seriously though, that's an awful argument.
You can create a religion based on it though... "This is not Dzerzinsky, this is god. Ok I can't prove it, but you cant prove he is NOT a god either:P "
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 23, 2014, 08:58:30 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 22, 2014, 10:26:07 pm
Yes, that's what I heard from Russian media as well. But it's a lie. First of all - can you show me this address in that video? I tried hard but I didn't find it and I didn't find any proofs/screenshots about this. Also there are a lot of other facts that make it obvious that it's not Krasnoarmeysk (like there are no trolleybuses in Krasnoarmeysk, and the street is different and so on). You can read the local website of Krasnoarmeysk busting this myth. http://www.06239.com.ua/news/581633

Here's a picture of a billboard, no idea how they found Dnepropetrovskaya, 34 on the banner.
(click to show/hide)

 There is information from locals of Torez that the video was shot in their town (from where the plane was shot most likely, it's controlled by separatists)
Lol, then our Ministry of Defence lied, interresting where did he get this info.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 23, 2014, 09:05:58 am
Quote from: Leesin on July 22, 2014, 08:53:26 pm
Never really looked, but is there an ignore feature so we can all put Tovi on ignore and his posts come up blank to us?.
Why would I do this?
He's very entertaining tbh. Rarely made me one person laugh this much :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 23, 2014, 10:12:02 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:30:27 am
Ok,I can't prove it, but you can't prove he's not.
Anyway, Poland is the strongest NATO member in the area, and they really don't like Russia. It would be very strange that they don't help the new power in Kiev by any means.

I can and I did. But once again you're stupid enough not to read it. I even gave you a photo :oops: It's Viktor Muzhenko, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Muzhenko
He's a chief of the general staff. It's like posting god damn photo of Barrack Obama and saying that it's Eddie Murphy. You can see Viktor Muzhenko at a lot of other photoes and videos, he's a god damn Chief of General Staff, how come that I can't prove that he's not Jerzy Dziewulski?
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And here's Jerzy Dziewulski, who is bald and 20 years older.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Herezy92 on July 23, 2014, 10:58:26 am
Quote from: Leesin on July 22, 2014, 08:53:26 pm
Never really looked, but is there an ignore feature so we can all put Tovi on ignore and his posts come up blank to us?.
Wow man, this is great, i never looked on it.
But it's definetely worth it :)
Thanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 23, 2014, 12:09:24 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 23, 2014, 10:12:02 am
I can and I did. But once again you're stupid enough not to read it. I even gave you a photo :oops: It's Viktor Muzhenko, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Muzhenko
"Офицерскую службу начал в 1983 году в Закавказском военном округе."
Atleast we know now where UA get this:
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http://newsoboz.org/proisshestviya/predmety-naydeny-na-meste-napadeniya-v-dobropole-ukazyvayut-15062014063244
hue hue hue
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 12:47:46 pm
2 days ago Obama accused Putin and Russia to shot down the plane. Today, the CIA says it was a mistake from the rebellion.
Sorry but I see no conspiracy here. Americans are just stupids and dangerous. Dangerous because too many people trust them, not only because they are the first world military power.

Also, I'm proud to announce that my country, and especially the town of Saint Nazaire ( close to mine) has delivered the first Mistral warship to Russia. "Fuck US"and fuck Nuland :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 23, 2014, 01:06:52 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 12:47:46 pm
2 days ago Obama accused Putin and Russia to shot down the plane. Today, the CIA says it was a mistake from the rebellion.
Sorry but I see no conspiracy here. Americans are just stupids and dangerous. Dangerous because too many people trust them, not only because they are the first world military power.

Also, I'm proud to announce that my country, and especially the town Saint Nazaire ( close to mine) has delivered the first Mistral warship to Russia. "Fuck US"and fuck Nuland :wink:
soon they will come back to La Mancha and ur country will be mine country  aswell:P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on July 23, 2014, 01:15:12 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 12:47:46 pm
Also, I'm proud to announce that my country, and especially the town Saint Nazaire ( close to mine) has delivered the first Mistral warship to Russia. "Fuck US"and fuck Nuland :wink:

Well Russian sailors were there to collect the first before this even happened. So hardly surprising your country delivered it  :rolleyes:

Whether they will get the others is another matter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on July 23, 2014, 05:45:46 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:18:40 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on July 23, 2014, 01:15:12 pm
Well Russian sailors were there to collect the first before this even happened. So hardly surprising your country delivered it  :rolleyes:

Whether they will get the others is another matter.

To justify a cancel of the sale, Obama must give more reliable proof of Russian involvment in the conflict. If you do not consider the Crimea annexion, of course.

I'd like to mention a point : next 18 september 2014, Scotland will decide if they remain in the UK or become an independant country . That sounds really unbelievebale, because i'm sure that if they choose independance it will be done peacefully. And it was the same for most ex-USSR countries.
So, yes, it's possible to declare an independance peacefully after a referendum. But, obviously, not in Ukraine. Why ?
Dave will probably disagree, but IMO, it's simply because this gvt is led by nationalists and extremists.
If a part of your population wants to leave, just let them go, don't kill them. It's a nonsense in Europa in 2014.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 23, 2014, 08:02:18 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:18:40 pm
To justify a cancel of the sale, Obama must give more reliable proof of Russian involvment in the conflict. If you do not consider the Crimea annexion, of course.

I'd like to mention a point : next 18 september 2014, Scotland will decide if they remain in the UK or become an independant country . That sounds really unbelievebale, because i'm sure that if they choose independance it will be done peacefully. And it was the same for most ex-USSR countries.
So, yes, it's possible to declare an independance peacefully after a referendum. But, obviously, not in Ukraine. Why ?
Dave will probably disagree, but IMO, it's simply because this gvt is led by nationalists and extremists.
If a part of your population wants to leave, just let them go, don't kill them. It's a nonsense in Europa in 2014.

We can all disagree in some things in this thread, but I believe that we can all agree that you're one of the biggest retards crpg has ever had :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 23, 2014, 08:05:46 pm
OMG USA don't have shots from satellite, pitty
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 10:01:47 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 23, 2014, 08:02:18 pm
We can all disagree in some things in this thread, but I believe that we can all agree that you're one of the biggest retards crpg has ever had :D

Yes, probably because playing a violent game doesn't makes me violent IRL.

If you consider insults as a sign of intelligence, you are in good company here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 23, 2014, 10:09:41 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:18:40 pm
To justify a cancel of the sale, Obama must give more reliable proof of Russian involvment in the conflict. If you do not consider the Crimea annexion, of course.

I'd like to mention a point : next 18 september 2014, Scotland will decide if they remain in the UK or become an independant country . That sounds really unbelievebale, because i'm sure that if they choose independance it will be done peacefully. And it was the same for most ex-USSR countries.
So, yes, it's possible to declare an independance peacefully after a referendum. But, obviously, not in Ukraine. Why ?
Dave will probably disagree, but IMO, it's simply because this gvt is led by nationalists and extremists.
If a part of your population wants to leave, just let them go, don't kill them. It's a nonsense in Europa in 2014.
Yes, Scotland is a nice example of how separatists FIRST take weapons from *MAGIC* sources (not those underwarted creatures, who resell russian shit ofc), occupy the fuck out of administrative buildings and do a sham wannabe "referendums" which even their aquatic friends refuse to acknowledge. yeahh... Comparable cases. Not.

Now THIS "And it was the same for most ex-USSR countries." is a bullshit of totally different category. You were not here, you do not know how my independence was TAKEN BACK from USSR so shut the fuck up about it happening peacefully. It was declared peacefully and then the commies tried to capture our media, government and even printing house buildings in order to "establish peace", which ended up in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_%28Lithuania%29. Learn your fucking history, then come preaching.

If a part of your population wants to leave, just let them go, don't kill them. It's a nonsense in Europa in 2014. Once the people living in a flat you rent decide that your rent conditions suck and they would rather have the flat for themselves, then promptly deciding they need your neighbor as "their" flats owner, because "fuck you, we had a vote with ~1 or 2 out of 5 people living in the flat participating"... Yeah...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 23, 2014, 10:45:42 pm
By replying to Tovi, you are part of the problem, Kuujis. And I see his post because of your quote.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on July 23, 2014, 11:05:20 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 23, 2014, 11:19:07 pm
And deluded conspiracy theorists discuss events that happen only in their fevered imaginations, which shapes their ideas. If that quote was supposed to be in support of Tovi, I see no interest further debating some Loose Change caliber retard or pretending his interpretation of events are worth discussing. Every time he's been proven wrong or shown that his "evidence" was erroneous he never aknowledges it then returns with yet another ridiculous whopper gleaned from the usual internet conspiracy rags. Not one original thought, just blatant confirmation bias out the ass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 23, 2014, 11:55:49 pm
Cheap entertainment, but I like it.



The way this guy connects everything that is happening just because.. well he can connect them because reasons, and of course everything is a flashpoint for WW3  :mrgreen: Truly batshit crazy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 23, 2014, 11:57:09 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 23, 2014, 10:45:42 pm
By replying to Tovi, you are part of the problem, Kuujis. And I see his post because of your quote.
Sowwyy...

Not something new, but something interesting:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=pl&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,16355167,Epidemia_naglych_smierci_wsrod_rosyjskich_komandosow_.html&usg=ALkJrhgTVTPtrWd1lUnww---5QZH3uCdoA#Cuk

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on July 24, 2014, 12:07:27 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:18:40 pm

So, yes, it's possible to declare an independance peacefully after a referendum. But, obviously, not in Ukraine. Why ?


If they had held a referendum legally, the way that Scotland are holding there's, then no one in this thread could question it.

It's taken years of planning and discussion to even get to this point. Even then it's been a significant length of time since the referendum was announced (as in over 1 year).

Taking control of a state and bullying into a rushed referendum in a matter of days/weeks is not legitimate. If the Cirmea had not had Russian backing then that would never have gone ahead as they would have been absolutely fucked come independence if it had even voted that way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on July 24, 2014, 01:01:20 am
Quote from: Oberyn on July 23, 2014, 11:19:07 pm
And deluded conspiracy theorists discuss events that happen only in their fevered imaginations, which shapes their ideas. If that quote was supposed to be in support of Tovi,

What? I just thought it's another temple of spam thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 24, 2014, 01:53:30 am
I expect Russian opinion to go even more hurrdurr now that the few remaining intellectuals flee in droves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 24, 2014, 06:41:06 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 23, 2014, 10:09:41 pm
Yes, Scotland is a nice example of how separatists FIRST take weapons from *MAGIC* sources (not those underwarted creatures, who resell russian shit ofc), occupy the fuck out of administrative buildings and do a sham wannabe "referendums" which even their aquatic friends refuse to acknowledge. yeahh... Comparable cases. Not.

Now THIS "And it was the same for most ex-USSR countries." is a bullshit of totally different category. You were not here, you do not know how my independence was TAKEN BACK from USSR so shut the fuck up about it happening peacefully. It was declared peacefully and then the commies tried to capture our media, government and even printing house buildings in order to "establish peace", which ended up in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_%28Lithuania%29. Learn your fucking history, then come preaching.

If a part of your population wants to leave, just let them go, don't kill them. It's a nonsense in Europa in 2014. Once the people living in a flat you rent decide that your rent conditions suck and they would rather have the flat for themselves, then promptly deciding they need your neighbor as "their" flats owner, because "fuck you, we had a vote with ~1 or 2 out of 5 people living in the flat participating"... Yeah...

What's your country ? Lithuania ? That's why I've said "most ex-USSR countries", not all. Because of Chechenya too. But, do you approve what Russia did at this time ? So why do you approve what Ukraine do now ?
Worst, you try to justify war and civilian killings. Your hate of Russia just makes you blind.

Kiev just don't want any referendum for independance. Peacefully or not. They don't even want to discuss of it.
The right of nations to self-determination doesn't apply when it's not in our interest. What is possible recently in South Sudan is impossible in Ukraine ? How can you force people to live together with the gun on their head?


Note : 2 SU25 have been shot down by rebels near Donetsk yesterday. At least they can't deny they still have AA weapons.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 24, 2014, 09:05:04 am
As I inderstood, USA lied about shots of satellite that prove that separatists shot the plane. Russia lied about video with BUK that was filmed somewhere, first that was Krasnodon, then Russa lied that this was Krasnoarmeysk, then people on internet found that this was in Luhansk, then Avakov said that it was in luhansk. And seems Ukraine lied about all information about BUKs. Everybody lies, how could we know the truth?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 24, 2014, 09:59:27 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 24, 2014, 06:41:06 am
What's your country ? Lithuania ? That's why I've said "most ex-USSR countries", not all. Because of Chechenya too. But, do you approve what Russia did at this time ? So why do you approve what Ukraine do now ?
Worst, you try to justify war and civilian killings. Your hate of Russia just makes you blind.

Kiev just don't want any referendum for independance. Peacefully or not. They don't even want to discuss of it.
The right of nations to self-determination doesn't apply when it's not in our interest. What is possible recently in South Sudan is impossible in Ukraine ? How can you force people to live together with the gun on their head?

Note : 2 SU25 have been shot down by rebels near Donetsk yesterday. At least they can't deny they still have AA weapons.

What you do Tovi is called "muddling the water", you compare apples and oranges because they are both fruits. You fail or you are too ignorant to agree, that starting ARMED FIGHT against a country your region belonged to, WITHOUT resorting to political means first, is a failed scenario. There is no justification for random proclamation of random republics with random names, which exist till the end of the barrel of your gun. This Tovi is called - BULLSHIT.

In Lt independence was reclaimed, it was already there before WW2 and it was illegally taken by CCCP. AND - they key point is, that ALL actions by Lithuanians were NOT armed capturing of random buildings, vice versa was the case. It would be comparable IF the "novorussia" (or whatever the new random name is chosen) was created peacefully and THEN Ukraine would come, crush the "new countries" by occupying buildings, etc. Now - there is a fucking bunch of armed god-knows-who fighting for god-knows-what.

Another thing, that you "interested in geopolitics" head fails to take into account time and time again is that you CAN'T look at this in isolated fasion: there is a bunch of putlers lackeys accross the border supplying, encouraging and training the fucking wannabe-separatists (although IMO - terrorists is a great name in this case) + whole putler controlled army of wannabe journalists who are spouting propaganda, lie and straight make up stories left and right. In this light - there is NO legitimacy to the actions of the separatists, because they are actions by russia first and foremost, and not a genuine movement for independence (which is another word for "joining russia ASAP" in russian language I guess).

Dont make me laugh about knowing or not knowing what Kiev wants. You fail to identify their "wants" time and time again. IF there was even an ATTEMPT at honest discussion of referendum - I would support you, but there was NOT. There was a daily changing demands, questionable RUSSIAN (FFS) wannabe leaders and bullshit from accross the border on an epic scale - these things were present.

Self determination of WHAT NATION? The one, which wants to join Russia as soon as possible? I would qualify that as NOT a nation, but a fucking turncoat separatist minority, who (according to numerous pools) don't even have a support of significant majority in the said regions. So WHAT NATION Tovi? WHAT kind of "self determination" are you shitting about?

Ask putler how to keep people living under the guns. He has this good-guy ramzan, who is an expert, although - he himself is quite "in-the-know" I would say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 24, 2014, 12:53:45 pm
Donetsk were bombed:
(click to show/hide)
Dave can you comment this video, as for me I don't like how people act there.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 24, 2014, 01:05:29 pm
Of course that's not nice, but don't forget that people wearing those stripes are killing our guys, so nothing surprising here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 24, 2014, 01:28:27 pm
Quote from: serr on July 24, 2014, 01:05:29 pm
Of course that's not nice, but don't forget that people wearing those stripes are killing our guys, so nothing surprising here.
Yes ofcourse, but those people who are killing your guys are ukranians, and in Odessa as you remember this ukranians were roughly killed by nationalists, and this video shows that this become wider, maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I saw from this video. And as I remember people with stripes started to be killed first. Well I think that relation between Ukranians and Russians is becoming worse and worse, and this last words in this video "glory to Ukraine - death to enemies". As I know there is no investigation about those killings.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 24, 2014, 04:14:21 pm
cyka cyka davaii
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on July 24, 2014, 04:40:50 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 24, 2014, 09:59:27 am
Now - there is a fucking bunch of armed god-knows-who Russian soldiers without their unit insignia fighting for god-knows-what Putin's dreams of Empire.

Fixed it for you, for free. Your welcome.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 24, 2014, 04:43:34 pm
Change russian by slav and we can all wholefully agree.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on July 24, 2014, 04:47:18 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 24, 2014, 04:43:34 pm
Change russian by slav and we can all wholefully agree.

YOU do it I have done all my free fixes for today the next one is treefiddy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 24, 2014, 04:55:15 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 24, 2014, 07:15:12 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 23, 2014, 06:18:40 pm
To justify a cancel of the sale, Obama must give more reliable proof of Russian involvment in the conflict. If you do not consider the Crimea annexion, of course.



It could be justified to hold that 1.5 billion euros as potential compensation for the victims of the shoot down pending a thorough investigation.  If France and it's leaders weren't such money grubbing weak cunts that's just what they would do. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on July 24, 2014, 09:38:36 pm
inb4 tovi claims USA are shooting down these 3 planes to scare the world about air travel except for US airlines that are never shot down and have guns n shit fitted soon. Thus they are the only planes left, make all the money and have guns everywhere (and spy equipment fitted to spy on whole world)(also all flight staff would be CIA agents now)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 24, 2014, 09:47:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 24, 2014, 09:05:04 am
As I inderstood, USA lied about shots of satellite that prove that separatists shot the plane. Russia lied about video with BUK that was filmed somewhere, first that was Krasnodon, then Russa lied that this was Krasnoarmeysk, then people on internet found that this was in Luhansk, then Avakov said that it was in luhansk. And seems Ukraine lied about all information about BUKs. Everybody lies, how could we know the truth?

What lies were told by the USA regarding where the missile came from?  As far as I know the USA claimed they tracked the missile from Russian proxy occupied area.  Was that a lie?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 24, 2014, 10:42:22 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on July 24, 2014, 04:47:18 pm
YOU do it I have done all my free fixes for today the next one is treefiddy

Alright.


Quote from: Kuujis on July 24, 2014, 09:59:27 am
Now - there is a fucking bunch of armed god-knows-who Russian soldiers without their unit insignia Slavs fighting for god-knows-what Putin's dreams of Empire.



Fixed it for you, treefidy please. Your welcome.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 24, 2014, 10:49:10 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 24, 2014, 09:47:50 pm
What lies were told by the USA regarding where the missile came from?  As far as I know the USA claimed they tracked the missile from Russian proxy occupied area.  Was that a lie?
The US didn't lie about anything, all they ever said was that it came from a separatist controlled area.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 25, 2014, 12:24:44 am
Quote from: Xant on July 24, 2014, 10:49:10 pm
The US didn't lie about anything, all they ever said was that it came from a separatist controlled area.

You're ressembling Tovi more and more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 25, 2014, 12:53:47 am
Quote from: Butan on July 25, 2014, 12:24:44 am
You're ressembling Tovi more and more.
Ressembling? Sorry, I don't speak retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: HardRice on July 25, 2014, 01:06:28 am
Quote from: Xant on July 25, 2014, 12:53:47 am
Ressembling? Sorry, I don't speak retard.
Wow you're a cunt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 25, 2014, 01:31:14 am
Quote from: HardRice on July 25, 2014, 01:06:28 am
Wow you're a cunt.
So are you, but you don't see me complaining, brah.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 25, 2014, 01:32:56 am
Quote from: Xant on July 25, 2014, 01:31:14 am
So are you, but you don't see me complaining, brah.


I wish I could collect money for the amount of "Xant" in your post...I'd be rich as fuck.

Also: Ponies. I hear that Ponies have actually been orchastrating all this from behind the scenes. They are man-eating ponies, and this gives them lots of fresh food.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thryn on July 25, 2014, 01:35:39 am
i regret posting in this thread, every time i get on it comes up as new shit and i click on it only to be disappointed by how much you kids fucking blow at insulting each other

rip good shitposts
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 25, 2014, 02:02:36 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 25, 2014, 02:21:10 am
Quote from: Xant on July 25, 2014, 12:53:47 am
Ressembling? Sorry, I don't speak lizard.

Fixed, *Sssssssssssss*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 25, 2014, 02:22:12 am
Quote from: Christo on July 25, 2014, 02:21:10 am
Fixed, Sssssssssssss.
Lizards aren't known for their intellectual capacity though, now are they? Well, are they?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 25, 2014, 02:23:04 am
SSSssiillly Human, ItssSSS obvioussly a fantasssSssy lizard.

laughed though
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 02:37:51 am
Quote from: Butan on July 25, 2014, 12:24:44 am
You're ressembling Tovi more and more.

You had a chance to dispute his statement and that's what you come up with?  Again how did the US lie when it said the missile came from separatist controlled area.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 25, 2014, 02:44:01 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 02:37:51 am
You had a chance to dispute his statement and that's what you come up with?  Again how did the US lie when it said the missile came from separatist controlled area.
Cut the dude some slack, he's working with what he's got -- that is to say, not much. When you're not witty enough for any interesting insults AND the facts aren't even on your side, pretty much only thing left to you is to make a random remark in broken English that makes no sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 02:59:16 am
In other interesting developments, there are reports that Ukrainian territory is being heavily shelled from Russian territory.

Also some EU members are criticising France's decision to continue with the sale of the warship to Russia.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 25, 2014, 04:05:39 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 02:37:51 am
You had a chance to dispute his statement and that's what you come up with?  Again how did the US lie when it said the missile came from separatist controlled area.

The falseness lies not in "it came from a separatist controlled area" but in the "all they ever said".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 25, 2014, 04:16:49 am
Quote from: Butan on July 25, 2014, 04:05:39 am
The falseness lies not in "it came from a separatist controlled area" but in the "all they ever said".
Prove it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 04:53:19 am
Quote from: Butan on July 25, 2014, 04:05:39 am
The falseness lies not in "it came from a separatist controlled area" but in the "all they ever said".

Explain it.

How is that a lie?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 10:09:59 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 24, 2014, 07:15:12 pm
If France and it's leaders weren't such money grubbing weak cunts that's just what they would do.

Yes, if only we could follow the US's brilliant and noble example when it comes to the MIC and sales thereof. Truly an inspiration.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 25, 2014, 12:38:48 pm
Interesting interview by russian television  :!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaXhASrJR2w&feature=youtu.be&t=3m35s
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on July 25, 2014, 12:57:00 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 25, 2014, 12:38:48 pm
Interesting interview by russian television  :!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaXhASrJR2w&feature=youtu.be&t=3m35s

Yeah that was all munspik to me Im afraid :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 25, 2014, 12:58:22 pm
https://twitter.com/IlvesToomas/status/492422724690518017

I love how the Estonians already have such bad relations with Russia that they don't feel the need to mince words.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 25, 2014, 01:36:29 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on July 25, 2014, 12:57:00 pm
Yeah that was all munspik to me Im afraid :P
Shit... well... ok, I sometimes forget myself  :rolleyes: To cut it short the host expected a quite different interview, but the "expert" turned out to have some balls. At first he almost said that russian def ministry is full of morons, who are arguing that Ukraine AF is stupid enough to send ground attack plantPLANE instead of interceptor to... well... actually intercept the airliner (they were discussing russian version of "there was Su25 in the air nearby and it could have shot down the plane), then the guest proceed to say stuff to an effect "lets stop fooling ourselves, its our weaponry and our guys fighting in Ukraine" and in the end, when then journo asked "so whats your opinion about what happened with the MH17?" the guest said "I don't think you will like what I think, so I will wait for official investigations to end before voicing my oppinion". It sounded like the journo was BEGGING for the guy to say "it was Ukraine's fault", but he did not :D

If Tovi wants to translate it differentlty - my russian was never that good, so be my guest to correct me!  8-)

*Corrected grammer-kiev-nac-gvard-right-wrong-left-sector comments :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 25, 2014, 01:53:12 pm
Quote
that Ukraine AF is stupid enough to send ground attack plant instead of interceptor

Your translation is correct, but after last fakes from russian media, some could think that you indeed meant ground attack plant :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 25, 2014, 01:59:32 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 25, 2014, 04:16:49 am
Prove it.



Re-read last pages of that thread and use google, all the proofs you need are there.
If you cant bother, you have no business dealing in absolute claims like "one never lied about anything" when we have been showed the contrary.


US secretary of state, intelligence staff, white house press secretary, more officials than I could count, all claimed Russia was involved in the downing of the MH17.
The president Obama have been more cautious in his declarations, but that is exactly the same for president Putin.
Still, both sides have been claiming the other "have done it".

So saying what you said is as retarded as saying "Russia didn't lie about anything, all they ever said was that it came from a separatist controlled area."


Sorry for not cutting you any slack, but it is so rare that you express an actual opinion and not only harassing the people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on July 25, 2014, 02:28:53 pm
Quote from: serr on July 25, 2014, 01:53:12 pm
... ground attack plant :)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 04:23:42 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 10:09:59 am
Yes, if only we could follow the US's brilliant and noble example when it comes to the MIC and sales thereof. Truly an inspiration.

Just do what's right.  Who said you had to follow anyone's example?  Do so if the example inspires you.  You have to grow up sometime.

Actually France is not doing too badly in the arms sales department herself.

Between 2004 and 2008, with 0.9% of the world's population, France had 9% of the international arms sales.
In the period 2009 to 2013 the sales fell to 5% of world wide arms sales.

The US, with 4.4% of the world's population, had 30% and 27% of the market in those time periods.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 04:39:02 pm
About Mistral warships : Our foreign affairs minister remembers UK that the City host numerous russian oligarchs bank accounts...

About politic at Kiev : The Porochenko gvt is under Igor Kolomoîski influence. That's why he can't negociate any cease-fire. Pravy Sektor push to drive his "patriotic war".
Also, Porochenko is misinformed  by his secret services and his military staff (under Pentagon influence). They let him think that Slaviansk was a victory, but it was just a tactical retreat of the rebels.
Even Alexander Turchinov admited being misinformed by his secret services while he was in charge. By Valentin Nalyvaichenko, who worked at Washington last years. Also, the CIA has his office in  the SBU building.

About Ukrainian army : The National Guard (mostly infiltrated by Pravy Sektor) is less efficient at the battlefield than in police opérations and suppression of the resistance in the occupied cities (like in Dniepropetrovsk, Kharkov and Marioupol). A lot of sabotage operations still occur in these cities.
The regular army let the surrounded army of Strelkov escaped Slaviansk. Probably because some soldiers were corrupted. It's very common that ukrainian soldiers sell their weapons and equipment just to have some money or food.
Air attack with SU-25 are like suicide attacks now, with a dramatic loss ratio (close to 50%). They almost lost the aerial dominance. But they still have rocket lauchers that blindly destroy everything. And separatists can now launch counter-artillery attacks with their own artillery.
The movment of soldier's mothers is growing in the west of Ukraine. A lot of soldier desert the army and become beggars in the Kiev's streets. They probably lost around 50 000 soldiers during the fights, instead of the official's 4500.


About Gas : After the troubles in Ukraine last years, Gasprom built 2 new gas pipeline :
Nord Stream, under Baltic Sea, toward Germany. Actually in service (since 2011).
South Sream : Under Black Sea, must supply Austria and Italy (and Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary). Its construction was interupted by USA and EU commission (...) in Bulgaria. Bulgaria, Italy and Austria tried to resist but the US diplomacy had the last word.
The Shale Gas extraction has a high depletion ratio : around 50% the first year. That's why you need to drill new wells constantly to maintain the production. That's what we call the "Shale Bubble". It decrease strongly the price of gas on the local market (north america) and will lead to a financial crash  within next 5 years.
That's why the USA need to export his gas. They pretend to "save Europe" from Russia's threat by selling their gas across the Ocean (wich is very expensive and quite impossible to do at a large scale).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 04:46:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 25, 2014, 01:59:32 pm


Re-read last pages of that thread and use google, all the proofs you need are there.
If you cant bother, you have no business dealing in absolute claims like "one never lied about anything" when we have been showed the contrary.


US secretary of state, intelligence staff, white house press secretary, more officials than I could count, all claimed Russia was involved in the downing of the MH17.
The president Obama have been more cautious in his declarations, but that is exactly the same for president Putin.
Still, both sides have been claiming the other "have done it".

So saying what you said is as retarded as saying "Russia didn't lie about anything, all they ever said was that it came from a separatist controlled area."


Sorry for not cutting you any slack, but it is so rare that you express an actual opinion and not only harassing the people.

That's a lot of words just to say that the US did not lie about anything.  The US did say that they have evidence that a missile was launched from the territory of Russian backed separatists.  They also said it was tracked towards the MH flight and that contact with that plane was lost contemporaneously with the missile's arrival. 

It's not lying to give an opinion based on currently available information.

Now that the Russian backed proxies have given back the bodies of the dead after removing them, now that they have given back the "black boxes" after removing them from the crash scene, now that they have stopped cutting into the wreckage and disturbing the crash scene, maybe just maybe a proper crash investigation can take place to determine how the plane was brought down conclusively.

But given the evidence (much of it supplied by the Russian backed proxies themselves) now available any reasonable person can only conclude that MH 17 was brought down by a missile from a SAM battery located in the Russian proxy controlled area. 

Who supplies the Russian backed proxies with the training and or manpower to launch such a missile?  Again any reasonable person can conclude that it is Russia that supplies the expertise or the crews.  If that is true then it follows that Russia and by extension Putin bear responsibility for shooting down MH 17.

For anyone to voice that conclusion is not lying.  It is a logical conclusion based on available information.  I think it's a pretty widely held opinion world wide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on July 25, 2014, 04:51:44 pm
(click to show/hide)

Insider information. Hear it first from Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 25, 2014, 05:18:55 pm
Seriuslly, why are you even still here Tovi. Absolutely not a single person here believes a single thing you post. Your info is some garbage picked up from the bottom of the internet mixed with your own retarded politicalviews and history that is extremely wrong. Its worthless....You havent been right about a single thing in this whole 300 page thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 25, 2014, 06:29:46 pm
I actually lol so hard when Tovi posts that I don't even want to mute him. According to Tovi, Ukraine is led by nаzi-jews  :mrgreen:

Quote from: DonNicko on July 24, 2014, 12:53:45 pm
Dave can you comment this video, as for me I don't like how people act there.
(click to show/hide)
I didn't watch the linked video (can't atm), but I saw it earlier on youtube, I believe it's the same video. I can only say that this is a situation when diamond cuts diamond. Both parties behaved wrong. People were way too aggressive and said a lot of wrong words, that guy is an SBU agent and he claims that those stripes were there since ages and meant to be the celebration of WWII victory. I can understand him but anyway you shouldn't have them, it's like having swаstika during WWII claiming that it's an indian sign of sun or whatever else it used to mean. This stripe is associated with separatists now (unfortunately) and you really must be a badass to have it hanging in your car while your mates fight and die (according to rumours: some Alpha squads of SBU were eliminated entirely during the beginning of this war when there was no ATO).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 08:31:19 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 04:23:42 pm
Just do what's right.  Who said you had to follow anyone's example?  Do so if the example inspires you.  You have to grow up sometime.

Actually France is not doing too badly in the arms sales department herself.

Between 2004 and 2008, with 0.9% of the world's population, France had 9% of the international arms sales.
In the period 2009 to 2013 the sales fell to 5% of world wide arms sales.

The US, with 4.4% of the world's population, had 30% and 27% of the market in those time periods.

I guess the US is just full of weak money grubbing asshole children who don't have it in them to the right thing either. Let me know when you the US stops wiping the asses of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 25, 2014, 08:57:29 pm
France is gonna get a huge fine from Russia if it doesnt deliver the ships and nobody is gonna pay it for them either. So aslong as USA isnt compensating for the deal that was already made, they shouldnt be the ones crying about it, cause they arent the ones paying the price. One might also think that "who gives a shit about a stupid fine". But like it or not Russia is a big player and France has to pay eventually, somehow. I admit, I dont like that they are selling the ships to Russia, but frankly I understand completely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 25, 2014, 09:19:50 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 25, 2014, 08:57:29 pm
France is gonna get a huge fine from Russia if it doesnt deliver the ships and nobody is gonna pay it for them either. So aslong as USA isnt compensating for the deal that was already made, they shouldnt be the ones crying about it, cause they arent the ones paying the price. One might also think that "who gives a shit about a stupid fine". But like it or not Russia is a big player and France has to pay eventually, somehow. I admit, I dont like that they are selling the ships to Russia, but frankly I understand completely.
Well, there were several sales from Germany which are on hold now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 10:23:22 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 25, 2014, 06:29:46 pm
I actually lol so hard when Tovi posts that I don't even want to mute him. According to Tovi, Ukraine is led by nаzi-jews  :mrgreen:


You really say shit, as always. You still try to deny that you're led by nazees. Even Israel condemned Ukraine for its violences against the jewish community. Svoboda is clearly a nazee party. And you fucking try to defend yourself by pretending i'm antisemit ?You 're not better than Xant.

I'll lol, when I'll see your city reduced to dust by french weapons.


At least, I read some good news  :mrgreen: :

Quote
The International Criminal Police Organization has put Ukrainian Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh on its wanted list, according to the cross-border police body’s official website.

Interpol has fulfilled Russia’s April request to issue an arrest warrant for Yarosh for “public incitement to terrorist and extremist activities involving the use of mass media.”

May these sons of  bitches finish in jail forever !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 25, 2014, 10:47:18 pm
Quote
And you fucking try to defend yourself by pretending i'm antisemit ?You 're not better than Xant.

I'll lol, when I'll see your city reduced to dust by french weapons.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Considering that Dave is from Odessa, that has significant jewish diaspora and there are stereotypes and a lot of jokes about jews from Odessa, your last statement indeed make you look like antisemit. As for Dave's comment, he just pointed that you contradict yourself:

Ukraine is led by nazee.
Ukrainian fascists hate jews.
The Porochenko gvt is under Igor Kolomoîski influence.
Igor Kolomoîski is ethnic jew.

Well, last statement is not from your posts, just a known fact, probably too mainstream for you.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 25, 2014, 10:47:53 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 04:46:57 pm
That's a lot of words just to say that the US did not lie about anything.  The US did say that they have evidence that a missile was launched from the territory of Russian backed separatists.  They also said it was tracked towards the MH flight and that contact with that plane was lost contemporaneously with the missile's arrival. 

It's not lying to give an opinion based on currently available information.

Now that the Russian backed proxies have given back the bodies of the dead after removing them, now that they have given back the "black boxes" after removing them from the crash scene, now that they have stopped cutting into the wreckage and disturbing the crash scene, maybe just maybe a proper crash investigation can take place to determine how the plane was brought down conclusively.

But given the evidence (much of it supplied by the Russian backed proxies themselves) now available any reasonable person can only conclude that MH 17 was brought down by a missile from a SAM battery located in the Russian proxy controlled area. 

Who supplies the Russian backed proxies with the training and or manpower to launch such a missile?  Again any reasonable person can conclude that it is Russia that supplies the expertise or the crews.  If that is true then it follows that Russia and by extension Putin bear responsibility for shooting down MH 17.

For anyone to voice that conclusion is not lying.  It is a logical conclusion based on available information.  I think it's a pretty widely held opinion world wide.


I was saying that USA has been accusing Russia to have been involved in destroying the plane at the first degree, which Xant denies they ever claimed. There is a profusion of official articles all around the world in every media that they did claim Russia to have done it. Exactly as everyone else did claim the other did it.

You are talking about USA/others accusing Russia to back the rebels. It is far more likely, and I am not refuting this.


Most of your post is made up of the most logical pieces of information hooked together, which then conclude with what you believe in.
Why I made that refuting post was to show that those arent the only pieces of information available, and that the US, along everyone else, has provided their share of illogical elements of accusation, and shouldnt be decreed as "never lying about anything", particularly on a topic like this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 10:52:54 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 08:31:19 pm
I guess the US is just full of weak money grubbing asshole children who don't have it in them to the right thing either. Let me know when you the US stops wiping the asses of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Again France doesn't have to do what any other country does now does it?  Since France prides itself on it's moral and cultural superiority it should transcend all the other mere mortals and live up to the noble standard it has set for itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 10:59:51 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 25, 2014, 10:47:53 pm

I was saying that USA has been accusing Russia to have been involved in destroying the plane at the first degree, which Xant denies they ever claimed. There is a profusion of official articles all around the world in every media that they did claim Russia to have done it. Exactly as everyone else did claim the other did it.

You are talking about USA/others accusing Russia to back the rebels. It is far more likely, and I am not refuting this.


Most of your post is made up of the most logical pieces of information hooked together, which then conclude with what you believe in.
Why I made that refuting post was to show that those arent the only pieces of information available, and that the US, along everyone else, has provided their share of illogical elements of accusation, and shouldnt be decreed as "never lying about anything", particularly on a topic like this.

But Butan Putin and the Kremlin are directly responsible for this because they are destabilizing Ukraine and have provide the expertise if not the manpower to make the shoot down possible.  Putin doesn't have to push the button himself to be held culpable.  Just like a Mafia Don, he is held responsible for the actions of his hit men.  And to say this is so is not a falsehood.

You seem to be saying that the US is holding back some information that could refute that Russia is responsible for this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 11:11:27 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 25, 2014, 08:57:29 pm
France is gonna get a huge fine from Russia if it doesnt deliver the ships and nobody is gonna pay it for them either. So aslong as USA isnt compensating for the deal that was already made, they shouldnt be the ones crying about it, cause they arent the ones paying the price. One might also think that "who gives a shit about a stupid fine". But like it or not Russia is a big player and France has to pay eventually, somehow. I admit, I dont like that they are selling the ships to Russia, but frankly I understand completely.

The US has and is paying an economic price for sanctions on Russia.  Sometimes you have to take a stand no matter what it costs.  I think Europe is much too hesitant to confront Russian aggression.  Do you think Russia will feel secure when it subjugates Ukraine?  Doesn't Moldova, and perhaps other border countries threaten to surround Russia with danger and western degradation?

Really tough sanctions MIGHT have a chance of convincing the oligarchs around Putin that it's just not worth it.  Russia can be a big player but it has to sell it's gas and energy to someone and China and India won't buy it all unless it's at prices that Russia can't even extract it for.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 11:15:47 pm
Quote from: serr on July 25, 2014, 10:47:18 pm
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Considering that Dave is from Odessa, that has significant jewish diaspora and there are stereotypes and a lot of jokes about jews from Odessa, your last statement indeed make you look like antisemit. As for Dave's comment, he just pointed that you contradict yourself:

Ukraine is led by nazee.
Ukrainian fascists hate jews.
The Porochenko gvt is under Igor Kolomoîski influence.
Igor Kolomoîski is ethnic jew.

Well, last statement is not from your posts, just a known fact, probably too mainstream for you.

I've never said ukrainian fascists are jews. Where ?????

I don't know if Igor Kolomoïski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi)* is jew or not, I don't care. All I know is he's a nationalist and an oligarch (he owns the Privat bank). He's the guy who  encouraged Pravy Sektor to join local police and national guard. I'm sure Dave knows well his good friend : Igor Palytsia, who became governor of Odessa after the syndicate house burn.
With Igor Kolomoïski in command, the Mafia will prosper for a long time in Odessa. But... it's not my business you'll say.


A little gift :

(click to show/hide)


* although born jewish, he's known as antisemit. He was ousted from European council of jewish communities. Wich is not said in english wikipedia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 11:32:04 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 10:52:54 pm
Again France doesn't have to do what any other country does now does it?  Since France prides itself on it's moral and cultural superiority it should transcend all the other mere mortals and live up to the noble standard it has set for itself.

Irony and lack of self-awareness are off the charts. It always makes me chortle when americans, who straightfacedly claim to be from the greatest country on earth that has ever existed, who think "number one" is their national motto, who are known to repeat endlessly that god himself favours them, start pretending France is this uniquely arrogant country. If there's one thing the US is certainly number one at, it's blind and uncompromising arrogance. 
Although that has a tendency to fall off in the face of real politik needs. Again, let me know when the obvious, obvious sources of all the terrorism and religious fanaticism in the mid-east are no longer the best of buds with the US. Noble US is obviously the only country with the balls do what needs to be done to win the War on Terror, unlike these wishy-washy euro's.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 25, 2014, 11:33:03 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 10:23:22 pm
[...]
I'll lol, when I'll see your city reduced to dust by french weapons.
[...]
Such humanity much impressive wow.

Finally showing your true face there, huh?

To quote Panos:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 11:36:14 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 11:32:04 pm
Irony and lack of self-awareness are off the charts. It always makes me chortle when americans, who straightfacedly claim to be from the greatest country on earth that has ever existed, who think "number one" is their national motto, who are known to repeat endlessly that god himself favours them, start pretending France is this uniquely arrogant country. If there's one thing the US is certainly number one at, it's blind and uncompromising arrogance.

They call this Manifest destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny), and it's very pregnant in their culture.

We, french, just say our valours are universals  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 11:41:57 pm
Quote from: Molly on July 25, 2014, 11:33:03 pm
Such humanity much impressive wow.

Finally showing your true face there, huh?

To quote Panos:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Yep, sometimes I lost my cold blood.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 25, 2014, 11:48:53 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 25, 2014, 10:47:53 pm

I was saying that USA has been accusing Russia to have been involved in destroying the plane at the first degree, which Xant denies they ever claimed. There is a profusion of official articles all around the world in every media that they did claim Russia to have done it. Exactly as everyone else did claim the other did it.

You are talking about USA/others accusing Russia to back the rebels. It is far more likely, and I am not refuting this.


Most of your post is made up of the most logical pieces of information hooked together, which then conclude with what you believe in.
Why I made that refuting post was to show that those arent the only pieces of information available, and that the US, along everyone else, has provided their share of illogical elements of accusation, and shouldnt be decreed as "never lying about anything", particularly on a topic like this.
Still not seeing any proof of US lying. Wonder why? Oh right, that's because there is none.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 26, 2014, 12:32:22 am
Quote from: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 11:32:04 pm
Irony and lack of self-awareness are off the charts. It always makes me chortle when americans, who straightfacedly claim to be from the greatest country on earth that has ever existed, who think "number one" is their national motto, who are known to repeat endlessly that god himself favours them, start pretending France is this uniquely arrogant country. If there's one thing the US is certainly number one at, it's blind and uncompromising arrogance. 
Although that has a tendency to fall off in the face of real politik needs. Again, let me know when the obvious, obvious sources of all the terrorism and religious fanaticism in the mid-east are no longer the best of buds with the US. Noble US is obviously the only country with the balls do what needs to be done to win the War on Terror, unlike these wishy-washy euro's.

Blind and uncompromising arrogance?  You're seriously behind the times.  All of Europe, france included, melted over Obama as the antithesis of arrogance.  Love affair over already?

Lol, I always get a kick out of the french, and you in particular, when they work themselves up into a proper Gallic frenzy.  You've got a serious case of US obsession/envy.  You'll notice that the topic is about Ukraine and possibly preventing Putin from going any farther.  You don't wish to face the issue of rewarding or discouraging Russia with concerted action from the west, because it might cost france some money.  In case you didn't notice, the situation in Ukraine doesn't have too much to do with the middle east or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or even the so called war on terror.  But that's ok for you.  You'll bring up any subject as long as it distracts the discussion from the point at hand.  That france has a chance to make a point to Russia that it's conduct is inexcusable.  No matter how much you rail against the US you can't disguise the fact that france is supplying a warship to a nation run by a Soviet style thug who is complicit in murdering almost 300 people just a few days ago.

In your anti-American furor you've failed to note that the US is not the only country to criticize france for selling warships to Russia at this time.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 26, 2014, 01:09:16 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 11:15:47 pm
I've never said ukrainian fascists are jews. Where ?????

I don't know if Igor Kolomoïski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi)* is jew or not, I don't care. All I know is he's a nationalist and an oligarch (he owns the Privat bank). He's the guy who  encouraged Pravy Sektor to join local police and national guard. I'm sure Dave knows well his good friend : Igor Palytsia, who became governor of Odessa after the syndicate house burn.
With Igor Kolomoïski in command, the Mafia will prosper for a long time in Odessa. But... it's not my business you'll say.


A little gift :

(click to show/hide)


* although born jewish, he's known as antisemit. He was ousted from European council of jewish communities. Wich is not said in english wikipedia.

As I've said, my country is led by nаzi-jews according to you. They're all born Jewish but known as antisemits. /thread
I think people insulted you in many ways in this thread. Here, enjoy being called a retard in a language of gestures :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 26, 2014, 05:59:25 am
Quote from: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 08:31:19 pm
Let me know when you the US stops wiping the asses of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

It'll be about the same time the french stop licking Putin's dick.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 26, 2014, 06:31:30 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 11:11:27 pm
The US has and is paying an economic price for sanctions on Russia.  Sometimes you have to take a stand no matter what it costs.  I think Europe is much too hesitant to confront Russian aggression.  Do you think Russia will feel secure when it subjugates Ukraine?  Doesn't Moldova, and perhaps other border countries threaten to surround Russia with danger and western degradation?

Really tough sanctions MIGHT have a chance of convincing the oligarchs around Putin that it's just not worth it.  Russia can be a big player but it has to sell it's gas and energy to someone and China and India won't buy it all unless it's at prices that Russia can't even extract it for.

It is paying the price. But its significantly smaller than what Europe is paying. I get that one should take a stand, especially against Russia. But breaking this ship deal wont really do much. That money will definately go into warequipment, nomatter what country Russia buys it from.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 26, 2014, 09:51:26 am
Quote from: Tibe on July 26, 2014, 06:31:30 am
It is paying the price. But its significantly smaller than what Europe is paying. I get that one should take a stand, especially against Russia. But breaking this ship deal wont really do much. That money will definately go into warequipment, nomatter what country Russia buys it from.
There is a reason Chinese are STILL buying russian fighter jet engines and ruskies are buying these french ships. This be called "teknologi" (shit, sorry, misspelled a bit). This ship gives putler capability of naval strike force landing (strictly offensive in nature) in 10k km range without additional supply reqs, which is on a different scale compared to what they have now. it is one thing with "finishing contract to suck dick" and a different thing with "finishing the contract of supplying guns to a guy who is picking a fight to most every neighbor due to his grandeur delusions". THAT is why I dislike this sale and that is why I think it throws french integrity out the window.

Next - maybe they will suggest to lease foreign legion?

Meanwhile in Ukraine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqKaoUidNvo and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-NoNJNdB7c (not sure if these are related actually).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 26, 2014, 02:59:57 pm
You think the russians cant make a ship like this themselves? Or the chinese? It would cost more and take longer, but in the end they would still have it. The french dont own some special secret shipbuilding technique. The chinese and the russians own and have made carriers themselves. Sure not helicopter carriers, but if they can make regular ones they sure as hell can make those. You are seriuslly underestimating them. They are behind in technology sure, but they can basically build whatever Europe and US can build cause they have enough resources and they arent THAT behind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 26, 2014, 03:37:22 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 25, 2014, 11:48:53 pm
Still not seeing any proof of US lying. Wonder why? Oh right, that's because there is none.

Quote me where I say US is lying?


Quote from: Turkhammer on July 25, 2014, 10:59:51 pm
But Butan Putin and the Kremlin are directly responsible for this because they are destabilizing Ukraine and have provide the expertise if not the manpower to make the shoot down possible.  Putin doesn't have to push the button himself to be held culpable.  Just like a Mafia Don, he is held responsible for the actions of his hit men.  And to say this is so is not a falsehood.

You seem to be saying that the US is holding back some information that could refute that Russia is responsible for this.


I'm not debating the truth of the claims, only showing that the claims do exist to you and those who do not believe, or pretend to not.



Claim: US officials never told anything else than "missile came from separatist area" ?

Reality: they claimed more than that, for examples that Russia was directly or indirectly responsible.

(one) Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U616lCxYdHU (+ google "MH17 US" for more)
A relatively minor error that doesnt deserve as much posts, so I will end my case here.



US did claim a lot more than the fired missile exact origin.

In the few first days, they even thought that Russia directly fired the missile, but some more time later, their own intelligence reports (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/22/u-s-officials-intelligence-suggests-mh17-shot-down-by-rebels-no-link-to-russia-found/) diverted from this version, by going backward and taking more caution in their accusations, at which point they said what you're trying to say : Russia is backing them, arming them, helping them, so they are responsible for what happened. This is not new, everyone have already accepted the possibility in this topic that it is true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 26, 2014, 04:15:34 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 26, 2014, 01:09:16 am
As I've said, my country is led by nаzi-jews according to you. They're all born Jewish but known as antisemits. /thread
I think people insulted you in many ways in this thread. Here, enjoy being called a retard in a language of gestures :mrgreen:

You're really an asshole. I say 1 guy is jewish, you say "They're all born Jewish". Are you stupid or 5 years old ?
Is this guy jewish ? yes.
Does he have politic responsabilities ? yes
Is he antisemit ? A lot of people think it. And he'll be not the first one to deny his jewish origins.
And most important : I fucking don't care if he's jew or not. I just said he is a fascist.

If this world is too complex for you, just continue to watch TV. That was made for people like you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 26, 2014, 05:04:37 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 26, 2014, 04:15:34 pm
If this world is too complex for you, just continue to watch TV. That was made for people like you.

If this world is too complex for you, just continue to watch AMTV. That was made for people like you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 26, 2014, 05:12:48 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 26, 2014, 04:15:34 pm
You're really an asshole. I say 1 guy is jewish, you say "They're all born Jewish". Are you stupid or 5 years old ?
Is this guy jewish ? yes.
Does he have politic responsabilities ? yes
Is he antisemit ? A lot of people think it. And he'll be not the first one to deny his jewish origins.
And most important : I fucking don't care if he's jew or not. I just said he is a fascist.

If this world is too complex for you, just continue to watch TV. That was made for people like you.

Wait, is it me who is posting articles and videos from Russian TV channels? I smell rage in your words
Here's info for you (assumptions are made according to last names which are jewish): Poroshenko's father is a jew, Yatsenyuk's mother is a jew, Klitschko's grandma is a jew, Tyahnybok's grandma is a jew. And they're all nаzis.

Following your logic: they are jews, nаzis, antisemits and fascists at the same time, they are also the followers of NWO. gg
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 26, 2014, 05:15:47 pm
Tovi uses propagandamaterial as proof in this thread to prove that we are the ones who read propaganda. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 26, 2014, 05:42:47 pm
Mayor of central Ukrainian city, Kremenchuk, shot dead (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/26/us-ukraine-crisis-mayor-idUSKBN0FV08820140726)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 26, 2014, 09:29:43 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 26, 2014, 05:12:48 pm
Wait, is it me who is posting articles and videos from Russian TV channels? I smell rage in your words
Here's info for you (assumptions are made according to last names which are jewish): Poroshenko's father is a jew, Yatsenyuk's mother is a jew, Klitschko's grandma is a jew, Tyahnybok's grandma is a jew. And they're all nаzis.

Following your logic: they are jews, nаzis, antisemits and fascists at the same time, they are also the followers of NWO. gg

According to my family name I should be jewish too. What does that proove ?

In my original résumé of the situation in Ukraine I didn't even mentioned anything about jews. You try to hedge the problem.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 26, 2014, 09:47:53 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 11:36:14 pm
We, french, just say our valours are universals  :mrgreen:

Quote from: Tovi on July 25, 2014, 04:23:22 pm
[...]
I'll lol, when I'll see your city reduced to dust by french weapons.
[...]

french Universals valours huh?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 26, 2014, 09:50:36 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 26, 2014, 03:37:22 pm
Quote me where I say US is lying?



I'm not debating the truth of the claims, only showing that the claims do exist to you and those who do not believe, or pretend to not.



Claim: US officials never told anything else than "missile came from separatist area" ?

Reality: they claimed more than that, for examples that Russia was directly or indirectly responsible.

(one) Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U616lCxYdHU (+ google "MH17 US" for more)
A relatively minor error that doesnt deserve as much posts, so I will end my case here.



US did claim a lot more than the fired missile exact origin.

In the few first days, they even thought that Russia directly fired the missile, but some more time later, their own intelligence reports (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/22/u-s-officials-intelligence-suggests-mh17-shot-down-by-rebels-no-link-to-russia-found/) diverted from this version, by going backward and taking more caution in their accusations, at which point they said what you're trying to say : Russia is backing them, arming them, helping them, so they are responsible for what happened. This is not new, everyone have already accepted the possibility in this topic that it is true.

Ah, I understand your meaning now.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 27, 2014, 12:48:59 am
Quote from: Tovi on July 26, 2014, 09:29:43 pm
According to my family name I should be jewish too. What does that proove ?

In my original résumé of the situation in Ukraine I didn't even mentioned anything about jews. You try to hedge the problem.

NWO, Empire, Nаzis.

I have bad news for you Tovi. Proof:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 27, 2014, 11:16:10 am
Dave'sWorld :

These guys are not nazees. It's just traditions
(click to show/hide)


This is not Imperialism, this is tourism in camo gear

(click to show/hide)


Quote
U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.
source : http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/   another Putin's media  :mrgreen:
So, once again I was right...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 27, 2014, 11:23:00 am

I wonder how soon he will be banned on entry in Latvia  :P :P :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 27, 2014, 11:25:05 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 27, 2014, 11:23:00 am
I wonder how soon he will be banned on entry in Latvia  :P :P :P
Butthurt much?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 27, 2014, 11:30:22 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 27, 2014, 11:23:00 am

Swimming trunks in the sauna. Disgusting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 27, 2014, 12:19:44 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 27, 2014, 11:23:00 am

I wonder how soon he will be banned on entry in Latvia  :P :P :P

Yeah, because shitty unknown beer is a reason to be proud of Russia :lol: He got paid for acting in ads, nothing more. There is definitely a lot of things to be proud of, but he's not the one who is, otherwise he wouldn't live in US.

Quote from: Tovi on July 27, 2014, 11:16:10 am
Dave'sWorld :

These guys are not nazees. It's just traditions
(click to show/hide)


This is not Imperialism, this is tourism in camo gear

(click to show/hide)

source : http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/   another Putin's media  :mrgreen:
So, once again I was right...

Prove me that they're nаzis.
About 2nd pic: OH SHIT. Americans have already invaded Russia with troops!!! And Mongolia is OP.  :lol: Pathetic clown Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 27, 2014, 12:31:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 27, 2014, 11:23:00 am
I wonder how soon he will be banned on entry in Latvia  :P :P :P

Lol he really is butthurt. Passive-aggressive russians: "Fine! Ban them. See if I care!" You kinda do. Since lets be honest here. Latvia just banned them, they didnt make a big number of it. They dont consider it to be some great deed so they can "play with the big boys." As you butthurt ruskies put it. Baltics have always banned a lot of russians, cause some pro-russians are straight up annoying dicks. Be pro-russia, noone really cares, just dont be a dickhead about it and try to turn people against their own governments.

Kinda reminded me of some international Pro-Putin motocycle clan that got some mediacoverage a while ago. How they decided to sorta spread propaganda in their own way. Kinda hilarious how in Narva(town with the largest russian population in the country) the russians living there told them to fuck off because we have a peaceful co-coexistence here. In Baltics pro-russians have always tried to drive a wedge between the locals and the russian minorities. Considering that they are relatively small countries and with quite rocky history, it really doesnt take a lot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 27, 2014, 02:08:39 pm
Why butthurt? Nobody cares about baltics at all. :)

Quote from: DaveUKR on July 27, 2014, 12:19:44 pm
Yeah, because shitty unknown beer is a reason to be proud of Russia :lol: He got paid for acting in ads, nothing more. There is definitely a lot of things to be proud of, but he's not the one who is, otherwise he wouldn't live in US.
Captain!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 27, 2014, 02:10:52 pm
And how exactly are you above it? By "not caring" very hard? Everyone totally believes you :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 27, 2014, 02:11:15 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 27, 2014, 02:08:39 pm
Why butthurt? Nobody cares about baltics at all. :)

I dunno, you are the ones who keep bringing it up. "ahuehuehue they banned some of our people, hahaha, so funneh." Not really that hilarious. And i think people of the Baltics would really like it, if nobody cared about Baltics. Saddly Russia always does.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 27, 2014, 02:27:50 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 27, 2014, 02:08:39 pm
Why butthurt? Nobody cares about baltics at all. :)
Captain!
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 27, 2014, 03:17:57 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 27, 2014, 02:11:15 pm
I dunno, you are the ones who keep bringing it up. "ahuehuehue they banned some of our people, hahaha, so funneh." Not really that hilarious. And i think people of the Baltics would really like it, if nobody cared about Baltics. Saddly Russia always does.
I just told it's funny.

-They banned Gazmanov cuz ukrainian situation.
- lol.

Nothing more.

Quote from: DaveUKR on July 27, 2014, 02:27:50 pm
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 27, 2014, 03:24:39 pm
-You hear we banned some russian singer or something?
-Not really, no.
-Well, apparently we did and the russians are now all over it, saying how it's hilarious and how they don't care about us.
-Oh, suuuuuuuure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 27, 2014, 03:49:07 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 27, 2014, 03:24:39 pm
-You hear we banned some russian singer or something?
-Not really, no.
-Well, apparently we did and the russians are now all over it, saying how it's hilarious and how they don't care about us.
-Oh, suuuuuuuure.

I got your point, but still   :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 27, 2014, 07:27:53 pm
U.S. releases images it says show Russia has fired artillery over border into Ukraine (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-releases-images-it-says-show-russia-has-fired-artillery-over-border-into-ukraine/2014/07/27/f9190158-159d-11e4-9e3b-7f2f110c6265_story.html?tid=recommended_strip_2)

... Of course there are no images in the article, here (http://imgur.com/a/c6TJr) is what I have found so far.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 27, 2014, 07:47:43 pm
USA showed the proof that Russia shot the Boeing
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 27, 2014, 07:58:06 pm
Okay, that was absurd enough to make me LOL :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 27, 2014, 08:10:25 pm
Lol dat russian anthem at the end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 27, 2014, 09:02:14 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 27, 2014, 03:49:07 pm
I got your point, but still   :)
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 28, 2014, 02:27:10 am
Quote from: [ptx] on July 27, 2014, 07:58:06 pm
Okay, that was absurd enough to make me LOL :lol:

Selective humor  much? :wink:



Quote from: Kuujis on July 27, 2014, 09:02:14 pm


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Old article but I never seen his like here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukrainian-shell-fire-kills-1-near-border-russia-says-1.2705471
A russia bordertown is named... Donetsk? Quite ironic it would be shelled.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on July 28, 2014, 08:52:51 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 27, 2014, 07:47:43 pm
USA showed the proof that Russia shot the Boeing
Fake no BUK :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 28, 2014, 01:47:41 pm
Quote from: Piok on July 28, 2014, 08:52:51 am
Fake no BUK :mrgreen:
One was already FIRED earlier... DUH!!!  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 28, 2014, 02:03:46 pm
Again a few days old, sorry if it was posted : http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/
I had heard 2 fighters had been shot down, but not that it could possibly have been fired from russia side.


If everyone is saying some bit of truth, it is increasingly probable that Russia and Ukraine are already directly fighting each other at a small scale.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 02:58:16 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 28, 2014, 02:03:46 pm
If everyone is saying some bit of truth, it is increasingly probable that Russia and Ukraine are already directly fighting each other at a small scale.

They do and for a long time already. And actually each of Ukrainian Army's success frightens me because it makes Russia closer and closer to a situation when they either "start full assault on Ukraine" (c) Panos or they give up DNR/LNR. By this moment DNR and LNR are disconnected by Ukrainian troops. It's the actual map now (don't know who made it but it seems to be accurate, you can compare this map to previous to see the diference)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 28, 2014, 03:24:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 02:58:16 pm
They do and for a long time already. And actually each of Ukrainian Army's success frightens me because it makes Russia closer and closer to a situation when they either "start full assault on Ukraine" (c) Panos or they give up DNR/LNR. By this moment DNR and LNR are disconnected by Ukrainian troops. It's the actual map now (don't know who made it but it seems to be accurate, you can compare this map to previous to see the diference)
(click to show/hide)
sure when this happens, you will have fun waving flag of Russia from balcony of your flat in Odessa and screaming - I'am Russian XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 03:58:07 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 28, 2014, 03:24:17 pm
sure when this happens, you will have fun waving flag of Russia from balcony of your flat in Odessa and screaming - I'am Russian XD

I hope that you launch all your rockets like this, then I have nothing to be afraid of  :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 28, 2014, 04:10:22 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 03:58:07 pm
I hope that you launch all your rockets like this, then I have nothing to be afraid of  :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)
Dat PAINFULLY dragging hymn in background... Only some swearing dudes were missing. Sooo.... FAAAAAKE!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 05:38:55 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 28, 2014, 04:10:22 pm
Dat PAINFULLY dragging hymn in background... Only some swearing dudes were missing. Sooo.... FAAAAAKE!  :rolleyes:

Well, background hymn isn't played while they launch rockets ofc. But the video is real, it caused a lot of scandals and butthurt a year or 2 ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Harpag on July 28, 2014, 05:58:22 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 27, 2014, 02:08:39 pm
...Nobody cares about baltics at all. :)

o rly? don't be so sure...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 28, 2014, 06:03:33 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 03:58:07 pm
I hope that you launch all your rockets like this, then I have nothing to be afraid of  :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)

Hmm just get a blank when I click on the spoiler in Chrome but I can see the video when I use Firefox.  Chrome must be missing some setting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 28, 2014, 06:11:20 pm
Quote from: Harpag on July 28, 2014, 05:58:22 pm
o rly? don't be so sure...

Do what you want with Lithuania, just remember that Estonia (AKA the Baltic Republic of Superalko) is our territory.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 28, 2014, 06:13:04 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 02:58:16 pm
They do and for a long time already. And actually each of Ukrainian Army's success frightens me because it makes Russia closer and closer to a situation when they either "start full assault on Ukraine" (c) Panos or they give up DNR/LNR. By this moment DNR and LNR are disconnected by Ukrainian troops. It's the actual map now (don't know who made it but it seems to be accurate, you can compare this map to previous to see the diference)

(click to show/hide)
So where are the separatists getting all the men and equipment from? Since it seems it isn't a guerrilla war like you'd expect from some rebels, but they can fight the UKR army head on in some cases?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 28, 2014, 06:21:40 pm
Maybe there are tunnels all the way from Chechnya to Ukraine? :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Harpag on July 28, 2014, 07:09:33 pm
Quote from: okiN on July 28, 2014, 06:11:20 pm
Do what you want with Lithuania, just remember that Estonia (AKA the Baltic Republic of Superalko) is our territory.

wat? You think NATO is bullshit?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 28, 2014, 07:34:06 pm
Quote from: Harpag on July 28, 2014, 07:09:33 pm
wat? You think NATO is bullshit?
You didnt get it. He is finnish. He was just joking about how Estonia has extremely cheap liqour compared to Finland so they need Estonia to always buy crateloads of alcohol and bring it back to their own country. Its nearby, it really is cheap and they dont need a visa. Estonia is basically a way for fins to fufill their nasty drinkinghabits without going broke. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Harpag on July 28, 2014, 07:41:59 pm
Oops, I didn't knew that so many, and cuz so many reasons cares about Baltics  :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on July 28, 2014, 08:39:27 pm
http://scgnews.com/the-ukraine-crisis-what-youre-not-being-told
http://scgnews.com/flight-mh17-what-youre-not-being-told
Quote
On July 17th, 2014 two major events took place: Malaysian flight MH17 was downed over eastern Ukraine, presumably by a missile, and Israel began a ground invasion of Gaza.Israel's invasion was granted an almost complete media blackout. The MH17 tragedy, however, got full coverage, and was immediately propagandized. (This in spite of the fact that far more civilians have been killed by Israel's bombardment of Gaza over the past few weeks.)


Coincidence? I don't think so :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 28, 2014, 08:40:48 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 28, 2014, 06:13:04 pm
So where are the separatists getting all the men and equipment from? Since it seems it isn't a guerrilla war like you'd expect from some rebels, but they can fight the UKR army head on in some cases?

DNR and LNR are not connected directly to each other. But this happened just today, fights for the area between them are still carried on. And LNR is still connected to Russia (that thing on the east is a Russian border). Also the map might create wrong impressions about the scale of the conflict, even though these 2 regions look like just 2 parts out of 25, their population is bigger than Baltic's overall population. So having an open conflict is really difficult.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tore on July 28, 2014, 11:52:45 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 29, 2014, 02:33:22 pm
Maybe someone missed - an article about "Ukrainian" "Rebels" in Ukraine http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/ukrainian-rebels-aren-t-ukrainian-or-rebels/504197.html  :rolleyes:

Oh, and one of the last "friend" nations of russia feels fuzzy butterflies in its belly - http://www.interpretermag.com/russian-actions-in-ukraine-have-deeply-divided-belarusians-moscow-military-analyst-says/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 05:46:28 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 29, 2014, 02:33:22 pm
Oh, and one of the last "friend" nations of russia feels fuzzy butterflies in its belly - http://www.interpretermag.com/russian-actions-in-ukraine-have-deeply-divided-belarusians-moscow-military-analyst-says/

I dont think this one is totally true thou. Belarusian society has always been somewhat devided, even before the Ukr crysis. Some supporting moscow and Belarus' dictatorship and other one demanding democracy. No wounder after Maidan russians are scared of losing it aswell. But I think that is a pointless fear. Belarus will be Russias little lapdog and not a real country forever. While in Ukr the only place Russia dared to send troops(officially) was Crimea than in Belarus they would send soldiers everywhere, to contain the situation, if something like Maidan happened there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 30, 2014, 06:45:39 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 27, 2014, 12:19:44 pm
Yeah, because shitty unknown beer is a reason to be proud of Russia :lol: He got paid for acting in ads, nothing more. There is definitely a lot of things to be proud of, but he's not the one who is, otherwise he wouldn't live in US.

Prove me that they're nаzis.
About 2nd pic: OH SHIT. Americans have already invaded Russia with troops!!! And Mongolia is OP.  :lol: Pathetic clown Tovi.

I don't need to prove that Svoboda and Pravy Sektor are nazzis. The Fascism is revolutionary and nationalist, and it's very close to what Maidan's revolution is.
 But, look, Maidan's protesters wanted to kick out oligarchs and corruption. What do you have now ?
Porochenko, first oligarch of the country,who nominate 2 governors like Akhmetov and Kolomoisky.
Now the country will suffer unsustainable debts, privatizations, social breakage under IMF supervision and ...war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 07:01:26 am
Tovi, stop eating eastern propaganda please and spreading it here. You do realise that Svoboda and Pravy Sektor have a very small standing in the parlament and even smaller one in the Ukr government? And the parties have only a few members who are openly fascist. That does not make an entire party a fascist and an entire government even less. Only Russia likes to use it for their propaganda cause they really have nothing better against them.

Wierd really. A person such as yourself, who has studied geopolitics and claims to have very neutral views based on facts should know this. Again, proving that you are totally ignoring facts to support your own retarded ideology. Also, you seem to write nationalism and fa cism constantly at the same sentence. You do realise that nationalism is not the same thing as fa cism right? Im kinda getting the feeling you dont know what it means.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 30, 2014, 08:59:38 am
I took the liberty to alter Tovi's avatar a little...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 10:12:22 am
Luhansk bombed, mostly civilians are dead and injured.
This hospital of Luhansk
Well people say that one bomb got to the house, second on the street and so on, there wasn't any rebels
Ukranian elite says that they bomb themselves
Just interesting do you have any videos like this on your TV? OSCE said that more then 1000 people are dead. 40 ukrainian troops asked Russia to save them, and so on any video like that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 30, 2014, 10:28:34 am
Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2014, 08:59:38 am
I took the liberty to alter Tovi's avatar a little...

(click to show/hide)
you turned this topic into the wall of personal insults. shame on you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 30, 2014, 10:40:00 am
The only thing left to do is insult when Tovi spews complete fantasy bullshit whenever he posts. And when he's wrong (every time), he never acknowledges it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 10:47:22 am
RT news)
Common Kiev kill moar
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 10:50:11 am
Im sorry if im really sceptical about these vids. First of all its rt news. Secondly kinda hard to take this shit seriuslly if it has #donbassagainstchocolate chip cookie on top of it, which is utterly childish and silly. And thirdly we arent entirely sure who bombed what. It could very well be separatists themselves who are bombing their own city with a few rockets to provoke further anti-governmentmovement. Also i dont believe a single thing these fucking locals say. Cause during this crysis they have just lied so incredibly much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KingBread on July 30, 2014, 11:17:24 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 10:47:22 am
RT news)
Common Kiev kill moar

Kiev kill moar... I really cant understand how you dont get the idea of national border.

It doesnt matter what nationality lives from other side if this is border of Ukraine then ANY military/milita that is not being lead by Kiev should be considered as terrorist or invaders. In this matter i guess Ukraine is protecting themselves from invasion russian army. You can also say they are not invasion or russian cos they formed allready in Ukraine so in this view it makes them terrorists supported by bordering nation. And becouse this terrosits/milita/military group is within national borders of Ukraine, then Ukraine should use every mean possible to secure their border by ofc eradicating this group by ofc killing them. So i dont understand how you can be shocked or disgusted by the killing Kiev is making when they try to secure their own borders. (and its theirs just look on any map)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 30, 2014, 11:35:31 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 30, 2014, 10:28:34 am
you turned this topic into the wall of personal insults. shame on you.
If Tovi is allowed to insult our intelligence by posting all this bullshit, then I am allowed to post an altered avatar of his which imho prefectly portraits his mental state. (http://piv.pivpiv.dk/)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 11:36:14 am
Quote from: KingBread on July 30, 2014, 11:17:24 am
Kiev kill moar... I really cant understand how you dont get the idea of national border.

It doesnt matter what nationality lives from other side if this is border of Ukraine then ANY military/milita that is not being lead by Kiev should be considered as terrorist or invaders. In this matter i guess Ukraine is protecting themselves from invasion russian army. You can also say they are not invasion or russian cos they formed allready in Ukraine so in this view it makes them terrorists supported by bordering nation. And becouse this terrosits/milita/military group is within national borders of Ukraine, then Ukraine should use every mean possible to secure their border by ofc eradicating this group by ofc killing them. So i dont understand how you can be shocked or disgusted by the killing Kiev is making when they try to secure their own borders. (and its theirs just look on any map)
First those who were killed are ussual ukranian civilians not rebels. Second most of the East supports Russia and as for me it doesn't make them terrorists. Third according to your idealogy people who made revolution in Kiev are terrorists so they must be killed.
Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 10:50:11 am
Im sorry if im really sceptical about these vids. First of all its rt news. Secondly kinda hard to take this shit seriuslly if it has #donbassagainstchocolate chip cookie on top of it, which is utterly childish and silly. And thirdly we arent entirely sure who bombed what. It could very well be separatists themselves who are bombing their own city with a few rockets to provoke further anti-governmentmovement. Also i dont believe a single thing these fucking locals say. Cause during this crysis they have just lied so incredibly much.
And you say that there is no west propaganda? :shock: Any brainwash?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KingBread on July 30, 2014, 11:54:06 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 11:36:14 am
First those who were killed are ussual ukranian civilians not rebels.
Some of them prolly yes. On war there are usually civilian casualties.

Quote
Second most of the West supports Russia and as for me it doesn't make them terrorists.

I dont get this sentence. I dont think you want to say that West support Russia.

Quote
Third according to your idealogy people who made revolution in Kiev are terrorists so they must be killed.

So you compare tanks to posters and chants? I dont know how to answer this. If you really see no diffrence between protesters (and protests are something common in western countries its a wide accepted way to show you disagree with sth goverment is doing) and tank using milita.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 12:29:30 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 11:36:14 am
And you say that there is no west propaganda? :shock: Any brainwash?
Ofcourse there is, but only the East goes to such childish extremes. It is kinda like the difference between USA and North-Korea propaganda. One bends the truth to make itself look good, the other one is competely childish, unlogical and silly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 30, 2014, 01:07:13 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 30, 2014, 10:28:34 am
you turned this topic into the wall of personal insults. shame on you.

hey... no pun - no cookie. Leave pun's next time. Since when being polite is a priority btw?  :?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on July 30, 2014, 02:58:24 pm
Take a look at her boots...


Source - http://video.state.gov/en/video/3703345458001
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 30, 2014, 03:03:05 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on July 30, 2014, 02:58:24 pm
Take a look at her boots...

i think its a fake ^^ oh nope ^^ shit happens
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on July 30, 2014, 03:20:08 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 30, 2014, 03:03:05 pm
i think its a fake ^^

Nope, Vovka, the source - http://video.state.gov/en/video/3703345458001
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 05:53:36 pm
Quote from: KingBread on July 30, 2014, 11:54:06 am
Some of them prolly yes. On war there are usually civilian casualties.
Well it is not war it ATO

Quote
I dont get this sentence. I dont think you want to say that West support Russia.
Yes I meant East

Quote
So you compare tanks to posters and chants? I dont know how to answer this. If you really see no diffrence between protesters (and protests are something common in western countries its a wide accepted way to show you disagree with sth goverment is doing) and tank using milita.
Quote from: DonNicko on May 08, 2014, 03:03:21 pm
That's only names of the cities and in the middle is written "We - not titushki(young people used in political battles). We are people. We against the illegal power in Kiev"
(click to show/hide)
As you see it began without any armed people)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 30, 2014, 06:17:56 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 25, 2014, 11:32:04 pm
Noble US is obviously the only country with the balls do what needs to be done to win the War on Terror, unlike these wishy-washy euro's.

Hey guess what Oberyn, you are right about something.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 06:24:42 pm
Nicko tell me exactly how is Kiev's power illegal? Seems quite legal to me. Kicked the corrupted president out because he refused to give up his position, people voted democratically, the one who people voted for won. Seems quite legal to me. Even russians deemed the elections to be fair before the war with the separatists began. Donensk is the real illegal power in the area. Half the people in charge in Donensk arent even Ukrainian. Fucking Alexander Borodai and Igor Girkin arent even from Donensk or any other part of Ukraine. They dont or even ever have lived in Ukraine. How can they rebel against something that they were never even a part of to begin with?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 07:05:54 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 06:24:42 pm
Nicko tell me exactly how is Kiev's power illegal? Seems quite legal to me. Kicked the corrupted president out because he refused to give up his position, people voted democratically, the one who people voted for won. Seems quite legal to me. Even russians deemed the elections to be fair before the war with the separatists began. Donensk is the real illegal power in the area. Half the people in charge in Donensk arent even Ukrainian. Fucking Alexander Borodai and Igor Girkin arent even from Donensk or any other part of Ukraine. They dont or even ever have lived in Ukraine. How can they rebel against something that they were never even a part of to begin with?
Ok, I don't talk about Poroshenko, but seems he is also smbd's puppet. How it was, maybe smbd can correct me, the agreement on settlement of political crisis in Ukraine — the document signed on February 21, 2014 by the president of Ukraine by Victor Yanukovych and leaders of parliamentary opposition with mediation of representatives of the European Union. Signing of the Agreement was urged to stop mass bloodshed in Kiev and to put an end to the acute political crisis which has begun in November, 2013 in connection with the decision of the Ukrainian authorities to suspend process of signing of the Agreement of association with the European Union.

The agreement on settlement of political crisis was signed by the president of Ukraine Victor Yanukovych and leaders of opposition Vitaly Klitschko (Strike party), Arseniy Yatsenyuk ("Batkivshchyna") and Oleh Tyahnybok ("Freedom"). As witnesses of signing Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Germany and Poland — Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Radoslav Sikorsky and the head of department of continental Europe the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the French Republic Eric Fournier (фр acted. Éric Fournier). The special representative of the president of the Russian Federation Vladimir Lukin participating in negotiations, refused to put the signature under the agreement.

The agreement provided return to the constitution of 2004, that is to a parliamentary presidential government, early elections of the president until the end of 2014 and formation "the governments of national trust". Also the termination of violence and delivery by weapon opposition were provided branch of security forces from the center of Kiev.
So in fact Yanukovych has already given up. Then there was armed revolution, not all maidan, that was made by forces of Praviy Sector. So where that was legal? New authorities didn't reject this revolution, they accepted it and started to put their people on state positions in all regions and firing previous ones. Well Maybe I missed something
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 30, 2014, 07:17:57 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 06:24:42 pm
Nicko tell me exactly how is Kiev's power illegal? Seems quite legal to me. Kicked the corrupted president out because he refused to give up his position, people voted democratically, the one who people voted for won. Seems quite legal to me. Even russians deemed the elections to be fair before the war with the separatists began. Donensk is the real illegal power in the area. Half the people in charge in Donensk arent even Ukrainian. Fucking Alexander Borodai and Igor Girkin arent even from Donensk or any other part of Ukraine. They dont or even ever have lived in Ukraine. How can they rebel against something that they were never even a part of to begin with?


How is the motive behind the successful maidan movement related to the legality of its outcome, the new regime?
People voted democratically, AFTER the old one was forcefully and illegally removed, and not all regions voted, and those who did were logically in the mind to not elect any Russian friendly president (none presented themselves under that banner anyway, smart politicians even switched political parties!).
Leaders of a rebellion can be from a different country, it will be an argument against them from opposing forces, but those that follows them do it for their own reasons, same as in all rebellions. I would be more picky if it was a leader from a totally different part of the world, but as you may know this whole "affair" is because ethnic russian living in Ukraine are not as welcome as before; even a russian not living in Ukraine can understand and want to help (or be directly sponsored/commandeered by Putler; added this for less Kuujis quote-answer).


Donetsk auto-proclaimed republic is illegal, but if they succeed in creating a new country, and organize an election, will it will become a legal power?

A successfull rebellion/revolution/war = legal power that is legitimate?
An unsuccessfull one = illegal power that has been served justice?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 07:46:48 pm
Ive basically explained all this to you before but okay, lets circle once again:
Quote from: Butan on July 30, 2014, 07:17:57 pm

How is the motive behind the successful maidan movement related to the legality of its outcome, the new regime?
People voted democratically, AFTER the old one was forcefully and illegally removed, and not all regions voted, and those who did were logically in the mind to not elect any Russian friendly president (none presented themselves under that banner anyway, smart politicians even switched political parties!).
Leaders of a rebellion can be from a different country, it will be an argument against them from opposing forces, but those that follows them do it for their own reasons, same as in all rebellions. I would be more picky if it was a leader from a totally different part of the world, but as you may know this whole "affair" is because ethnic russian living in Ukraine are not as welcome as before; even a russian not living in Ukraine can understand and want to help (or be directly sponsored/commandeered by Putler; added this for less Kuujis quote-answer).
Ofcourse it was forcefully and illegally removed. The old government was basically totally corrupt and the president was embezzling statemoney and was holding on to his power with great determination. And the fact that ethnic russians living in Ukraine are not as welcome as before is once again Russias own fault. Had it not given Ukr so much shit and let Ukr go, no person would have held a single grudge on a single russian. Again its kinda similar to Baltics. When Russians and Baltic governments were on the negotiationtable and indepence was discussed. Kremlins main bullshit explanation was that once they move their troops out of Baltic the ethnic russians are gonna get  the shit discriminated out of them and almost refused to give us indepence cause of that. Now its been like over 20 years and nobody has been discriminated(mostly). The minorities are quite happy here. And we have even more rocky history and less things in common with russians than ukrainians. So I think if Russia dicked Ukraine less the russian minorities would hardly even sense a change at all. The more Russia and Donensk push Kiev the more anti-russian Ukraine becomes.

Quote from: Butan on July 30, 2014, 07:17:57 pm
Donetsk auto-proclaimed republic is illegal, but if they succeed in creating a new country, and organize an election, will it will become a legal power?
A successfull rebellion/revolution/war = legal power that is legitimate?
An unsuccessfull one = illegal power that has been served justice?
Theres a massive difference between the two and you know that yourself. Stop playing dumb. Ukraine's main goal is to be an independent country. Donensks main goal is to be annexed by Russia or totally controlled by it. Alexander Borodai and Igor Girkin are basically Russian agents. Look it up they really are. If Donensk was a truly rebelling country wanting independence, I think majority of the world would be happy with that(publicly anyway). But the rebellion in donensk is nothing but a form of annexation. So its hardly suprising majority of the world frowns deeply at Russia for trying to claim lands for itself practically at the center of Europe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 30, 2014, 08:03:26 pm
I don't need to watch eastern infos. Just watch Ukraine TV :


That's exactly the way all pro-Kiev are acting here.

That's fascism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 30, 2014, 09:08:31 pm
Didnt see your past answers, maybe it was directed to someone else?
Anyway dont take it personaly, I appreciate debates too much for my own health :wink:

Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 07:46:48 pm
The old government was basically totally corrupt and the president was embezzling statemoney and was holding on to his power with great determination.

Only Yanukovitch corruption was proved, and that was AFTER the movement was over. It began on the "usual" accusation of corruption that all opposing forces always uses for such movements to increase their legitimacy.
You believe the new government is totally pure and uncorruptible? How do you know? If I start a movement today, and it fails to remove the old power forcefully, even though we have the proofs that the new regime is as corrupt as the old, where is truth and where is legality having a place?
Both movements were/are illegal and based on assumptions/lies.



Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 07:46:48 pm
And the fact that ethnic russians living in Ukraine are not as welcome as before is once again Russias own fault.

How is ethnic russian ukrainian responsible of Russia diplomacy with Ukraine and other states?



Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 07:46:48 pm
Ukraine's main goal is to be an independent country.

Because if a part of Ukraine becomes a new country or join another, Ukraine will lose independance?



Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 07:46:48 pm
Donensks main goal is to be annexed by Russia or totally controlled by it.


If thats what the new legal and legitimate government of Donetsk wants, how can you legally intervene in the decision process?
I also remind you that many "demands" have been processed to the government of Kiev since the first days of the revolt, and it the list included far more than just "being annexed to Russia", not even "becoming new country". Ask serr or dave what has been the various demands and he will give you more details than I could.
Why has the list become more "extreme"? Being called terrorists and actively warred on could have influenced, or maybe the demands gradually increased to push to the limits.

Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 07:46:48 pm
If Donensk was a truly rebelling country wanting independence, I think majority of the world would be happy with that(publicly anyway). But the rebellion in donensk is nothing but a form of annexation. So its hardly suprising majority of the world frowns deeply at Russia for trying to claim lands for itself practically at the center of Europe.


If by any chance, the only demand had been to become a new independant state, it would still have been deemed a move to create a puppet state or something alike, rinse and repeat, world diplomacy would not have supported it.



My opinion (its far too rare that I express it directly :P) is that, if you deny Russia involvement, eastern ukraine uprisings have as much legitimacy as maidan, and as much reasons they should succeed.
Russia is polluting the rebellion with its own ideals, and probably manpower, and thus depriving it from having a much needed popularity boost, be it from their own population, and worldwide.

Maidan was a very long and warry siege of a part of the Ukraine capital and had, at the end, a hundred dead. They fought to change the course of their country to become more european centered.
The eastern ukraine revolt is not yet over, has been longer than the maidan occupation and has claimed more than tenfold lives. They are fighting to change the course of a corner of their country to become more russian centered, even totally Russian.

I dont see any moral highground.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 09:27:35 pm
New and legal? I dont understand how you arent getting it. Ukraine needs that to be whole again. It is ukrainian soil. Borders exsist you know. You cant annex lands based on the principle that if your minority overpopulates the native population they can pretty much decide to rip appart from its original country via elections and join another one. Thats not how politics work you know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 30, 2014, 10:04:37 pm
A warn :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 30, 2014, 10:31:52 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 30, 2014, 10:04:37 pm
A warn :

nah, terrorist attacks it's a murica trick but not ua
The easiest way to ensure coming NATO forces it's a capture the crash site of Boeing, bring here more recruits and European Commissions, and then shell them all with "Grad", and leave at the crime scene St. George's ribbon, a bottle of vodka and two gunlayers with a tattoo Putin face on his chest XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 30, 2014, 10:35:17 pm
Quote
Only Yanukovitch corruption was proved, and that was AFTER the movement was over. It began on the "usual" accusation of corruption that all opposing forces always uses for such movements to increase their legitimacy.
Not really, it wasn't usual accusation of corruption and it wasn't corruption how you probably understand it.
It was more of robbery - impudent robbery of businesses. Some had to pay tributes, some just suddenly lost their companies by some strange court decisions. When Yanukovich(mostly his son) or his henchmen already had company in some sphere - their competitors suddenly were stopping due to constant inspections or for some other reasons. And it wasn't behind scenes, it was obvious, everyone could see it, yet noone did anything. Before maidan started...

Quote
How is ethnic russian ukrainian responsible of Russia diplomacy with Ukraine and other states?
Who told you that ethnic russian have any problems in Ukraine? People here don't care about ethnicity, never did. Russian symbolic is another matter, if you walk down the street with russian flag - you will likely get in trouble, but who force you to do foolish things?

Quote
Because if a part of Ukraine becomes a new country or join another, Ukraine will lose independance?
As leaders of rebels told many times - they won't stop on two regions, their goal is Novorossia - 8 regions, almost half of Ukraine.
Another thing... About religion. While many, probably most of rebels don't care about religion, their leaders are orthodox fanatics, which make them more dangerous.
And I don't agree with Tibe, this isn't form of annexation, Russia doesn't need those regions, Russia need week Ukraine torn apart by civil war.
We can't just stop war and let them hold what they have now - they will wait for some time, get from Russia more heavy weapons including aviation and attack us to get what they think is rightfully their.

About DNR... For russian speaking(or try to google translate it) - read this http://icorpus.ru/za-chto-srazhaetsya-opolchenie/
This is not fake, that's their official site, it was many times confirmed by leaders.
Would anyone want to have neighbor like that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 31, 2014, 08:28:54 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 30, 2014, 05:53:36 pm
As you see it began without any armed people)

Yeah, and the demonstrations were small, and it lasted only days before they started raiding official buildings with armed groups.

Quote from: Turkhammer on July 30, 2014, 06:17:56 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/world/africa/ransoming-citizens-europe-becomes-al-qaedas-patron.html?emc=edit_th_20140730&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=58377820&_r=0

Bitch please, nobody asked Oman to pay that ransom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 31, 2014, 08:50:16 am
Quote from: okiN on July 31, 2014, 08:28:54 am
Yeah, and the demonstrations were small, and it lasted only days before they started raiding official buildings with armed groups.
Where did you get  this? where you saw that demonstrations were small? And where you get info that it was only days before? Please Okin show me your sources please, becasue seems I missing something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on July 31, 2014, 09:04:34 am
It's not like I've memorized all the news links from five months ago, but photos, video, articles -- it was pretty clear there were never anywhere near as many people in the streets in the East as in Kiev, and it took a very short time for them to start capturing administrative buildings and police stations. Same in Crimea, they went very quickly from just protesting to capturing the regional parliament. I don't know why you're even trying to challenge this, it's common knowledge. Just do a bit of searching (outside Russian media maybe) and you can verify it for yourself easily enough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 31, 2014, 10:00:43 am
Quote from: okiN on July 31, 2014, 09:04:34 am
It's not like I've memorized all the news links from five months ago, but photos, video, articles -- it was pretty clear there were never anywhere near as many people in the streets in the East as in Kiev, and it took a very short time for them to start capturing administrative buildings and police stations. Same in Crimea, they went very quickly from just protesting to capturing the regional parliament. I don't know why you're even trying to challenge this, it's common knowledge. Just do a bit of searching (outside Russian media maybe) and you can verify it for yourself easily enough.
Common knowledge lol. Ok, this demonstartions began from the first of the March and capturing buildings started in the center of April, so if you think that 1 and half mounth is few days then OK. It is not clear about amount of people on Maidan and on the East, some days this amount were bigger on Maidan some days on the East. It's common knoledge and pretty clear that this what weren't shown on your photos and videos.
About Crimea yes it was very quick. Somebody captured state buildings there right after revolution, and there wasn't any reaction from Kiev for a week, so Russia took this region.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 31, 2014, 10:13:50 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 31, 2014, 10:00:43 am
and there wasn't any reaction from Kiev for a week, so Russia took this region.
:lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on July 31, 2014, 10:15:21 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 31, 2014, 10:00:43 am
Somebody captured state buildings there right after revolution, and there wasn't any reaction from Kiev for a week, so Russia took this region.
You were not supposed to talk about this... now they all know everything. Good job, dammit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 31, 2014, 10:30:02 am
Quote from: Macropus on July 31, 2014, 10:15:21 am
You were not supposed to talk about this... now they all know everything. Good job, dammit.
Why? that's OK. With support of population that was easy to take this region. And I think if there wasn't any revolution in Kiev everything would be OK. And Ukraine would be united but... I just can't understand why they made this revolution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 31, 2014, 10:36:52 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 31, 2014, 10:30:02 am
Why? that's OK. With support of population that was easy to take this region. And I think if there wasn't any revolution in Kiev everything would be OK. And Ukraine would be united but... I just can't understand why they made this revolution.
cos it was a secret dammit, Putin will be unhappy. now you know why we do not allowed drz guys in  past   write in the forum ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 31, 2014, 10:57:05 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 31, 2014, 10:36:52 am
cos it was a secret dammit, Putin will be unhappy. now you know why we do not allowed drz guys in  past   write in the forum ((
OMG sorry, I didn't know, Hail Putin!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Prpavi on July 31, 2014, 11:32:53 am
I just want to thank the french and russian block for making this thread utterly unreadable and useless, what started as a normal thread about the situation with nice inside info and views from both sides turned into a shotstorm really fast and is now privatised by few autistic "intelectuals" and serves just the purpose of them spewing their daily brainfarts. Never had a thread fill my ignore list so much, gratz.

Cheers
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 31, 2014, 12:15:14 pm
Quote from: Tovi on July 30, 2014, 08:03:26 pm
I don't need to watch eastern infos. Just watch Ukraine TV :

That's exactly the way all pro-Kiev are acting here.

That's fascism.

Hah, posting videos translated to French (I don't know French but I feel how they're translated) which were taken from pro-Russian propaganda channels. Is it really your limit Tovi? You just posted a video where a woman (she's a Russian member of HRW, if she said the opposite she would get troubles in her country, so I can understand it) declined the fact that Russia has anything to do with conflict in eastern Ukraine. It's like denying back in the days that Russian professional army invaded Crimea. :lol:
About 2nd video: once I hear 2 words "Kiev junta" I simply stop watching the video, typical propaganda shit. Either the one who says it is stupid and doesn't know what "junta" means or he's just trying to brainwash someone (or actually both in most of cases).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 31, 2014, 12:17:49 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 31, 2014, 12:15:14 pm
Hah, posting videos translated to French (I don't know French but I feel how they're translated) which were taken from pro-Russian propaganda channels. Is it really your limit Tovi? You just posted a video where a woman (she's a Russian member of HRW, if she said the opposite she would get troubles in her country, so I can understand it) declined the fact that Russia has anything to do with conflict in eastern Ukraine. It's like denying back in the days that Russian professional army invaded Crimea. :lol:
About 2nd video: once I hear 2 words "Kiev junta" I simply stop watching the video, typical propaganda shit. Either the one who says it is stupid and doesn't know what "junta" means or he's just trying to brainwash someone (or actually both in most of cases).
preffer video with "pro-russians terrorists" ?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 31, 2014, 12:40:17 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 31, 2014, 12:17:49 pm
preffer video with "pro-russians terrorists" ?  :P

Well, I don't like this definition but it's legit according to Ukrainian law. Trust me I don't take serious when people say Putler or Rashka either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 31, 2014, 02:41:53 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on July 31, 2014, 11:22:59 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 31, 2014, 12:15:14 pm
Hah, posting videos translated to French (I don't know French but I feel how they're translated) which were taken from pro-Russian propaganda channels. Is it really your limit Tovi? You just posted a video where a woman (she's a Russian member of HRW, if she said the opposite she would get troubles in her country, so I can understand it) declined the fact that Russia has anything to do with conflict in eastern Ukraine. It's like denying back in the days that Russian professional army invaded Crimea. :lol:
About 2nd video: once I hear 2 words "Kiev junta" I simply stop watching the video, typical propaganda shit. Either the one who says it is stupid and doesn't know what "junta" means or he's just trying to brainwash someone (or actually both in most of cases).

What do you mean by "pro-russian channel", that's Maidan's TV . Do you really think that a HRW member, even russian, fears repression from any country ? If if was the case, she'd better to change job.
I agree with you with the term "junta". But that does not means it doesn't deserve to hear. It can be true, or not (and I hope not), time will tell.


Something interesting :
Quote
Pentagon General wounded in Ukraine


On Tuesday, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, after a meeting with
Foreign Minister of Ukraine Pavel Klimkin made ​​a statement that the
Kiev authorities are ready for a ceasefire in the Donbas "not in the
future, but now,"

According to available information, the cause of a sudden attack of
peace in Washington is the deaths of several American military trainers
and wounded Pentagon General Randy Allen Key who
commanded by the Ukrainian force in the southeast.

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=19d_1406781209#SQhe7IvCWr5cWpGO.99

Also, 3 US officer instructors have been killed in the attack.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 31, 2014, 11:38:30 pm
I will believe you on corruption accusations serr; the only things I saw is the strange golden house of Yanukovitch and some papers on money he spent. I have never read an article with proof that other people at the government have been stealing money.


Quote from: serr
Who told you that ethnic russian have any problems in Ukraine? People here don't care about ethnicity, never did. Russian symbolic is another matter, if you walk down the street with russian flag - you will likely get in trouble, but who force you to do foolish things?


Whether you want it or not, ethnic ukrainian are at war with ethnic russian living in Ukraine, basically.
Not everyone is in the fight, but the fight is clearly divided into those two groups...

It is not a ethnic cleansing, but its not like the events of Ukraine today have no consequences on how both groups shows and handles each other... Your last sentence is just one example.


On your other messages, you know yourself that "Novorussia" was not the first demand of the rebellion, I dont know how it became the reality of today, what I know is that you yourself told us here of various demand versions in the past, and in the beginning they were mostly political... how did it devolve so fast?




Quote from: Tibe on July 30, 2014, 09:27:35 pm
New and legal? I dont understand how you arent getting it. Ukraine needs that to be whole again. It is ukrainian soil. Borders exsist you know. You cant annex lands based on the principle that if your minority overpopulates the native population they can pretty much decide to rip appart from its original country via elections and join another one. Thats not how politics work you know.

Ethnicity and culture is the #1 influence of borders.
Politics and borders are for peace time.

Poroshenko and nationalists wants to re-capture Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, Ukraine doesnt need to to exist and remain independant.
If your point was as valid as you say it is, Russia can also call for its past glory and annex various countries.
Where does that talk ends? It ends with war and a winner.



Quote from: okiN on July 31, 2014, 09:04:34 am
It's not like I've memorized all the news.

What you memorized of the past is not correctly analyzed by the you of today.

The Maidan and Eastern movement of "administration buildings occupation" were very alike and proceeded in various places in Ukraine.
For Maidan it was mainly in the west, for Eastern it was mainly in the east.
If you compare with the size of the party camping at the capital city, of course it was much bigger than all Eastern combined... but if you compare every region cities/capital that have been subject to those two movements, it was extremely similar in size and organisation.




For Ppravi: sorry for shotstorm ( :mrgreen: ), but its the internet and god knows that when you speak of serious matters on the internet, it never manages itself well.
Take a seat and make it right for us, but dont rub salt in the wound, its not necessary.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 01, 2014, 12:05:01 am
Quote from: Kafein on July 31, 2014, 02:41:53 pm
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Just like a Tropico cover art  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 12:35:37 am
Svoboda political program (in english) : http://en.svoboda.org.ua/about/program/

Draft law on restoring Ukraine’s nuclear status was registered at Ukraine’s Parliament on Wednesday at the request of Svoboda party.
The law on nuclear status was initiated by radical nationalist Svoboda party’s parliamentary faction. The text of the law is not quoted. Svoboda faction already proposed this earlier.
What a good idea  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 01, 2014, 12:37:33 am
Was a bad idea to disarm at the first place.

This whole Crimea ordeal wouldn't have happened from the beginning.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 01, 2014, 11:49:03 am
Quote from: Christo on August 01, 2014, 12:37:33 am
Was a bad idea to disarm at the first place.

This whole Crimea ordeal wouldn't have happened from the beginning.

This
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on August 01, 2014, 01:43:56 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 01, 2014, 02:04:44 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 01, 2014, 12:37:33 am
Was a bad idea to disarm at the first place.

This whole Crimea ordeal wouldn't have happened from the beginning.


Now that it is done, how can it help?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 01, 2014, 04:12:16 pm
Quote from: serr on August 01, 2014, 01:43:56 pm
(click to show/hide)
This is pretty common in Russia aswell and other parts in the East. Nothing too new tbh. Exept instead of getting kidnapped by masked guys, you get pulled over in the middle of nowhere by some fake policeman, he shoots you instantly in the face and hijacks your car. Pretty common thing. Carsalesmen get murdered a lot there aswell.

I've kinda started to like Vice recently. It doesnt really make videos that are completely neutral. They kinda always make one thats completely pro-one side and another one thats completely pro-other side and kinda make you decide yourself which team you are on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 01, 2014, 04:19:59 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 01, 2014, 02:04:44 pm

Now that it is done, how can it help?

As a common lesson "what NOT to do, if you have "frieldy" neighbors (like e.g. russia)", not much else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 04:34:37 pm
Tsk, those fascist chocolate chip cookies want nuclear weapons. It's almost as if Russia unilaterally raped the disarmament treaty they had with Ukraine in the first place. It's almost as if Russia blatantly exploited Ukraine's military weakness to annex their land. It's almost as if Ukraine having nuclear weapons in the first place would've been a defence against russian agression and conquest. But no, this is obviously completely out of the blue. Probably a plan to nuke separatist areas and genocide jews. You really are complete and utter fucking retards, aren't you Tovi and Butan? Do you have even an ounce of common fucking sense?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 01, 2014, 04:40:23 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 04:34:37 pm
It's almost as if Ukraine having nuclear weapons in the first place would've been a defence against russian agression and conquest.

Does Ukraine also project to create a time machine to go with a new nuclear arsenal?



Welcome back, I missed your "common sense"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 04:43:39 pm
Yes, because obviously it's all done now and Russia has no further plans for sovereign Ukrainian territory. It's now 100% certain that there is peace and harmony between the two countries, and not one inkling of irredentism on either side. Obviously Ukraine should take no steps to defend itself in the future from the neighbour who has shown no scrupples about invading and annexing their land whenever it suits them, violating treaties they themselves signed that may as well be toilet paper. You utter fucking retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 01, 2014, 04:47:39 pm
Indeed, except if open war erupts between Ukraine and Russia, I see nothing that goes toward Russia making another annexation move, if the open rebellion doesnt succeed in annexing itself to Russia. In both situations, warheads will not to much.

If it is for the sake of precaution, then all countries can arm themselves, and we can all forget the plans for world disarmement.
Arming a country which is unstable and on the verge of conventional warfare, with nuclear weapons, doesnt seem a good idea to me.


Learn to end your sentences in a polite way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 04:51:44 pm
The whole point of a nuclear umbrella is to PREVENT conventional war. If you weren't an ignorant buffoon this would be obvious to you. I'll be polite towards you once you've shown you aren't a fucking idiot on this subject. You may be waiting a while.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 01, 2014, 04:54:32 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 01, 2014, 04:47:39 pm
Indeed, except if open war erupts between Ukraine and Russia, I see nothing that goes toward Russia making another annexation move, if the open rebellion doesnt succeed in annexing itself to Russia. In both situations, warheads will not to much.

Obviously you dont.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on August 01, 2014, 05:10:30 pm
so many retards here that downvoting them starts to be a serious pain in the ass (time wise).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 01, 2014, 05:27:52 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 04:34:37 pm
Do you have even an ounce of common fucking sense?
This, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, is what we in the business like to call a "rhetorical question."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 01, 2014, 05:43:24 pm
It was funny as shit, when he called me a racist, althou I didnt really say a singe thing about a single race. But yea, it is kinda turning into a hatecrime kind of thing lately. Lots of russians are pulling the "itsbecauseimrussianisntit" card lately. Lavrov himself even pulled that card. Stating that WW3 is gonna happen cause everyone is a hater in the West. Clearly after decades of peace in Europe and Russia suddenly annexing lands at the central of Europe had nothing to do with it. NOPE, definately not. Its cuz ze West hates balalaikas, cyrillic alphaphet and only listen to USA deptrelated propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dalhi on August 01, 2014, 06:04:04 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 01, 2014, 06:05:40 pm
Fat French Drunkard... Could be Tovi or Butan for all we know... :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thryn on August 01, 2014, 06:13:00 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 01, 2014, 05:43:24 pm
It was funny as shit, when he called me a racist, althou I didnt really say a singe thing about a single race. But yea, it is kinda turning into a hatecrime kind of thing lately. Lots of russians are pulling the "itsbecauseimrussianisntit" card lately. Lavrov himself even pulled that card. Stating that WW3 is gonna happen cause everyone is a hater in the West. Clearly after decades of peace in Europe and Russia suddenly annexing lands at the central of Europe had nothing to do with it. NOPE, definately not. Its cuz ze West hates balalaikas, cyrillic alphaphet and only listen to USA deptrelated propaganda.

why everyone hates russians

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 06:13:40 pm
Tibe what do you mean, "lately"? The whole Defence of the Martyr Russian Race was the propaganda impetus from the very beginning. Defending from those genocidal ukrainian fascist chocolate chip cookies was imperative, don't you see? They were in the middle of a western backed, neo-fascist zionist (???) ethnic cleansing before noble russia intervened to save it's own flesh and blood.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 01, 2014, 06:22:47 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 06:13:40 pm
Tibe what do you mean, "lately"? The whole Defence of the Martyr Russian Race was the propaganda impetus from the very beginning. Defending from those genocidal ukrainian fascist chocolate chip cookies was imperative, don't you see? They were in the middle of a western backed, neo-fascist zionist (???) ethnic cleansing before noble russia intervened to save it's own flesh and blood.

Well, Germans had to defend themselves against Jew aggression too
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 01, 2014, 06:26:32 pm
Lately as in more than usual. All these problems exsisted before, but it was somewhat tolerable. Just with the Ukrainian crysis tensions seem to escalate in many ways. Some people go full retard. Including myself for even being in this shit thread and contributing it with more shit. Dunno, I just cant stop being here anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 01, 2014, 06:34:22 pm
Remove your Osiris-looking avatar you are confusing me Tibe
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 01, 2014, 06:52:05 pm
NO! Tell him to remove it!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 07:55:07 pm
Nuclear weapons may prevent invasion, in wise hands.
But the Kiev gvt is actually bombing its own population... Do you know any nuclear power doing this ?
And what do you think could happen different in Crimea with nuclear weapons ? A nuclear reply ?

Do you really want to see these guys with nuke weapons ? http://rt.com/shows/the-truthseeker/169176-ukraine-gangste-nuclear-strikes/

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 01, 2014, 08:01:59 pm
AHAHAHAHAA Jesus Tovi... uhh, great now my eyes are watering from laughter... that RT video! Please, everone, click on the RT link and watch the video :lol:

omg this is funny shit :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 01, 2014, 08:26:00 pm
I never really got this "leaked phone call" thing.

Seriously why not use something protected or meet personally, behind closed doors? All of these uses of phone calls seem idiotic and fake the more I think about it.

Or is it maybe I'm guessing in the dark? What do you say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 01, 2014, 08:26:30 pm
RT is basically Fox news I quess. And if you take it as humor, its really is quite solid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 01, 2014, 08:31:01 pm
Quote from: Dalhi on August 01, 2014, 06:04:04 pm
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Ah, this cunt is or was supposed to be in Hungary to shoot some film, or as a part of a theatrical play or something the last time I heard.

That moment when the news and etc. well kind of praise him for a "big french actor" coming here (well physically it's correct)

Dear goodness this country is all fucked up  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 01, 2014, 08:39:42 pm
Hmm let's see, nuclear powers waging wars against their "own" populations. Russia for one? Urh da DURH. Dagestan don't real guys. I'm sure all the turkic republics trying to break away and seeking independence would provoke no response from Russia either. They are famously able to let go of lands that are not their own, and never ever use miltary force.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 01, 2014, 08:50:19 pm
You can't let Ukraine to have its nuclear weapons back. Kiev junta and Right Sector will bomb civilians again, those damn fascists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 09:28:35 pm
So tell how nuclear weapons would change anything to the situation ?
If rebel forces take control of Kiev, even with Russia's help, what would they do ? Bomb Moscow ?
Can you imagine this ? " We have proofs that Russia helped eastern rebels, so we decided to launch a nuclear attack on Russia. God bless our families, goodbye".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 01, 2014, 09:35:39 pm
You clearly have no idea what a nuclear arsenal is actually used for, you god damn imbecile.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 01, 2014, 09:37:34 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 01, 2014, 08:31:01 pm
Ah, this cunt is or was supposed to be in Hungary to shoot some film, or as a part of a theatrical play or something the last time I heard.

That moment when the news and etc. well kind of praise him for a "big french actor" coming here (well physically it's correct)

Dear goodness this country is all fucked up  :lol:

Haha look at Putin's face.  He's leaning back just dreading having that fat tub of guts enfolding him in a sweaty embrace.  "I can stand any sanctions but this action from the west is unbearable."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 10:23:09 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 01, 2014, 08:50:19 pm
You can't let Ukraine to have its nuclear weapons back. Kiev junta and Right Sector will bomb civilians again, those damn fascists.

Fuck it Dave. This is not russian propaganda, this is your TV :




Bonus : SBU report of Ukrainian army losses : http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr/2014/07/catastrophic-desertions-and-losses-in.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 01, 2014, 10:48:45 pm
So what? You post a video with a random retarded guy explaining his opinion. It's a singer of a barely known band Sweetlo, maybe he's just trying to get some attention. I'm used to your "sources", I even managed to remember names of your channels with a couple of subscribers :lol: Your sources are so good, no idea why you didn't claim that he's Jerzy Dziewulski.

Also, Tovi, give me a couple of minutes, I didn't see your edit with one more bullshit. I'll once again prove that you're a retard who posts all the possible fakes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: the real god emperor on August 01, 2014, 10:51:59 pm
First time visiting this thread, and Tovi makes no sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 01, 2014, 11:31:27 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 07:55:07 pm
Do you really want to see these guys with nuke weapons ? http://rt.com/shows/the-truthseeker/169176-ukraine-gangste-nuclear-strikes/
As I have already seen on numerous publications - russias "news" and rest of the world live in different realities... Some would ask WHY, but some like their pill shiney and easy to swallow I guess.

Why the fuck do you come here with funny rt's videos anyway?

In other news - GO SIBERIA! https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftjournal.ru%2Fpaper%2Ffree-siberia&edit-text=&act=url ... well... fuck, that didn't last long, did it?  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 11:44:11 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 01, 2014, 10:48:45 pm
So what? You post a video with a random retarded guy explaining his opinion. It's a singer of a barely known band Sweetlo, maybe he's just trying to get some attention. I'm used to your "sources", I even managed to remember names of your channels with a couple of subscribers :lol: Your sources are so good, no idea why you didn't claim that he's Jerzy Dziewulski.

Also, Tovi, give me a couple of minutes, I didn't see your edit with one more bullshit. I'll once again prove that you're a retard who posts all the possible fakes.

Maybe Russia itself is a fake country  :rolleyes:
I mean, what is an evidence for you ?
But, from my point of vue, anything that comes from USA is fake, also. It's a kind of empire of illusions, there is almost 4 spin doctors for 1 journalist.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 12:20:14 am
Okay, here we go. About that "official reports" posted by Tovi.  :rolleyes: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr/2014/07/catastrophic-desertions-and-losses-in.html

Once again I'm busting this fake personally so it's not a copypaste text. I might searched it wrong or maybe it's a very fresh fake so I didn't find any proofs of this being fake but anyway it won't be hard for me. What's pathetic that Russian central TV channels once again showed these "REAL REPORTS" in their news, good job. You can use my proofs and send them to journalists of Russian media, Tovi.

First pic:
(click to show/hide)
1. The first what made my eyes bleed is that they couldn't type the name of the President correctly. Hell yeah, SBU types wrong initials of Poroshenko calling him P.A. instead of P.O. (Petro Oleksiyovych, P.A. can only be written in Russian while his name would sound as Pyotr Alekseyevich).
2. SBU like all the other ministries doesn't use the phrase "цілком таємно" (top secret), this looks like a translated Russian phrase "совершенно секретно" which was (or still is, I don't know) used by KGB. They use only one word "таємно" (secret). Also the font is different to the rest of the document, it can be easily seen.
3. The address is wrong, headquarters of SBU are located on Volodymyrska, 33. The mentioned Malopidvalna, 16 is a place where citizens can contact with SBU (like citizen reception or whatever it's called).
4. Post index is 01601 which is the post index of Khreshyatyk (one of the main streets of Kyiv), the real post index should be 01034.
5. It's approved by a subordinate Vasyl Grytsak which can't be true in SBU or any other military ministry. It should be the opposite, the message is always approved by someone who has a higher position, basically if a head of SBU reports - nobody from SBU can approve it below in the document.
6. The autograph of the head of SBU is taken from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentyn_Nalyvaichenko (there is a couple of other examples of his sign found by me, but this one is an exact copy, pixel to pixel, I checked it)
(click to show/hide)
7. According to this document, Poroshenko made a request for this report at the 1st of July, so it took 18 days to make it. This is not how reports are made during military conflicts.

I don't even mention that the blank itself is not the one which is used by SBU and also how it's written (with emotions and stuff, random percentages, wrong spaces etc.)


2nd picture
(click to show/hide)
Lol, this picture is so fake that I don't even want to comment it but I have to  :lol:
1. Whoever knows Ukrainian can understand clearly that this one is fake, incorrectly translated words, Russian words mixed with Ukrainian and so on.
2. Ukrainian military divisions are obviously fake. There is no such thing as "internal troops", it was removed and reformed to National Guard so it's basically impossible to mention both National Guard and internal troops as it's the same thing. I don't even speak about Right Sector mentioned as the separate military division (:lol:)
3. Same things with autographs. Avakov's sign is taken from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Avakov_%28politician%29 and Grytsak's signature is exactly the same as in the previous document.

Numbers are just hilarious. According to this document Ukrainians lost more than 6300 troops, 35 tanks, 96 APCs, 38 artillery units, 7 military planes, 2 helicopters and 102 military automobiles during less than a week (1600 dead and 4700 wounded). What is this? D-Day in Normandy? And what's funnier: there are only 112 separatists lost (48 dead and 64 wounded). So basically pro-Russians are each and everyone living Rambos. Each dead/wounded separatist manages to kill/wound almost 60 Ukrainian troops, destroy an APC, a tank/artillery unit and an automobile :lol:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 06:14:38 am
Quote from: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 11:44:11 pm
Maybe Russia itself is a fake country  :rolleyes:
I mean, what is an evidence for you ?
But, from my point of vue, anything that comes from USA is fake, also. It's a kind of empire of illusions, there is almost 4 spin doctors for 1 journalist.
Thats your point of view cause you are watching the world from a basementwindow and making assumptions based on other very questionable peoples assumtions and calling it a fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 10:24:05 am
Quote from: Tovi on August 01, 2014, 11:44:11 pm
Maybe Russia itself is a fake country  :rolleyes:
I mean, what is an evidence for you ?
But, from my point of vue, anything that comes from USA is fake, also. It's a kind of empire of illusions, there is almost 4 spin doctors for 1 journalist.

Evidence is something that is not a complete cheap bullshit which is shown on Russian central TV and then translated to French.

Also, Tovi. About the video you posted earlier. I looked a little bit into it. Turned out it's a cheap montage. Here's the full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI
There is nothing common between this video and the fake you posted before. The video you posted is a cheap montage with words and phrases taken out of context and merged in to make an image of a cruel nаzi. Actually he didn't say anything even CLOSE to what is shown on the video. I take my words back about him being retard and seeking for some attention.
Also, watch the date, 29th of april. The fake video you mentioned is montaged at 31st of July. And of course this video became "breaking news" in Russian central TV channels even after 3 months.

And one more thing that you don't understand. Hromadske.tv is not a TV channel, it's an Internet TV, you can't watch it on your TV. I'm just curious how retarded can you be?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 02, 2014, 12:42:09 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 10:24:05 am
[...]
And one more thing that you don't understand. Hromadske.tv is not a TV channel, it's an Internet TV, you can't watch it on your TV. I'm just curious how retarded can you be?
This.

First thing I did when I clicked the video - I googled the tv name which is clearly present. Ended up on Wikipedia, reading that it's Internet TV...
From such a smart and intelligent guy as Tovi, I would have expected the same 2 minutes effort tbh. Quality sources right there.
Yet we are the brain washed mainstream :lol:

He really is a clown.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 02, 2014, 01:31:36 pm
The first time he made very clear he was unironically a 9/11 truther, no one should ever have taken his views or any of his ridiculous "sources" seriously again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 02, 2014, 01:57:33 pm
This discussion in itself is a great example on how conspiracy theorists manage to destroy a discussion. Ironically, it is the tendency to believe in such stuff that is the VEIL THAT HIDES THE TRUTH. :D  (in your own head that is)

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The world doesn't need crazy theories to be explained.

On some mental level, I think the Putin supported insurgency in Ukraine comes straight out of a wounded pride in the Russian people, built up since the fall of SU. Of course the propaganda nurtures these emotions. Ukraine is Russias abused little brother, and when he wants to leave the family, it just hurts too much, and he needs to be punished.

Now Putin is creating truth by slowly radicalizing Ukraine. Thus if he continues, they will begin to hate Russia, and Russians too as an extension. Gives him a great reason to annex more and more of what he perceives to be Russian lands..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 02, 2014, 02:17:14 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 02, 2014, 01:57:33 pm
they will begin to hate Russia, and Russians too as an extension.

Fairly advanced on that level, imo.




Putin didnt "create" the hate all by himself, come on. Nor is it a possible tool to annex other countries: since when people that hates you are a good source of annexed population?
That theory is at the illuminati level you mock in your same post...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 02:53:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 02, 2014, 02:17:14 pm
Fairly advanced on that level, imo.




Putin didnt "create" the hate all by himself, come on. Nor is it a possible tool to annex other countries: since when people that hates you are a good source of annexed population?
That theory is at the illuminati level you mock in your same post...

The difference is that Illuminati shit is a theory and what we have in Ukraine is reality. It's an old trick, divide et impera. You make everything to force people associate themselves and others with things you need. Having such a huge media influence (Ukrainians were watching a lot of Russian channels, especially the eastern part of Ukraine) made it easy for years. People in Crimea were really scared of "nаzi Bandera followers" who were going to kill them all for being Russians and crucifix their children. And it worked just fine, because it's not like only one channel is transmitting this shit. Imagine, there are dozens of such channels and they all use the same methods and even same words. They call the current government "junta" and Ukrainian military "chasteners". I mean it's not even funny how retarded it is, just every god damn article in their media has these words and none of them thought about the meaning of these words.

People from Russia are ready to kill all the Ukrainians according to their posts on forums/comments. And if I were this stupid I would want this as well, because if you believe in all that bullshit from their media - you can have an image of an absolute evil that is called Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 02, 2014, 03:01:36 pm
Yes but then, they can only annex the people who believes in the lies : mostly ethnic russians.
Putin isnt going to annex the whole of Ukraine by making 80% of its population (ukrainians) hate its guts. Through that divide et impera trick he already reached his maximum capacity : Crimea and possibly south-east Ukraine rebel controlled regions.

Thus, if Putin continues like this, he will gain nothing more than what he already has.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 03:03:13 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 02:53:58 pm
People from Russia are ready to kill all the Ukrainians according to their posts on forums/comments.
Stop saying shit please
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 02, 2014, 03:06:06 pm
He did say "according to forums/comments"; most of the political internet comments are really hate-fuelled and nonsensical.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 03:14:59 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 03:03:13 pm
Stop saying shit please

It's not shit, read comments of your countrymates on forums if you lost the contact with reality. Just take an ordinary entertainment website and read. yaplakal.com is a good example.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 02, 2014, 03:18:32 pm
What conspiracy? Again, the Russian Martyr Race angle was there from the very beginning and exploited by Putin's state controlled propaganda. Yeah, just pretend there wasn't (and still is) a flood of bullshit "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" by "fascist chocolate chip cookies" hysterical made-up crap. Literally a few posts after Tovi demonstrated how retardedly gullible and full of confirmation bias he is for the umpteenth time by linking some great examples of it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 03:32:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 03:14:59 pm
It's not shit, read comments of your countrymates on forums if you lost the contact with reality. Just take an ordinary entertainment website and read. yaplakal.com is a good example.
Ok same of ukranians, they'd like to kill russians according to their comments
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 03:34:58 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 03:32:17 pm
Ok same of ukranians, they'd like to kill russians according to their comments

I don't want to defend these people but it's a natural reaction when someone wants to kill you and take your land because he thinks that you're a nаzi fascist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 03:40:44 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 03:34:58 pm
I don't want to defend these people but it's a natural reaction when someone wants to kill you and take your land because he thinks that you're a nаzi fascist.
About the land, you think that people in Crimea didn't want to join RF?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 02, 2014, 03:46:06 pm
After having it blared at them endlessly that the hordes of stick wielding evil ukrainian bandera chocolate chip cookies were coming to commit genocide on them? WHAT A SURPRISE.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 03:47:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 03:40:44 pm
About the land, you think that people in Crimea didn't want to join RF?

Not all of them and those who didn't got locked in the other country. And it's not the matter of the question, not even the propaganda used to scare them. It's all about how Russian troops invaded Ukraine and annexed a part of it. Or don't you remember how everyone officially refused to acknowledge the presence of Russian troops in Crimea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 04:12:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 03:40:44 pm
About the land, you think that people in Crimea didn't want to join RF?

Ofcourse they did. But that was cause of propaganda entirely. Russia basically lied to them. Stating if you dont join us, you will be ruled by na zi fascist racist overlords who will crucify your children. Basically scaring them with lies that they are in danger.

Quote from: Butan on August 02, 2014, 03:01:36 pm
Yes but then, they can only annex the people who believes in the lies : mostly ethnic russians.
Putin isnt going to annex the whole of Ukraine by making 80% of its population (ukrainians) hate its guts. Through that divide et impera trick he already reached his maximum capacity : Crimea and possibly south-east Ukraine rebel controlled regions.
Thus, if Putin continues like this, he will gain nothing more than what he already has.
He can go a lot further than that, pretty sure you have seen this map:
(click to show/hide)
This is how your average russian minority is related to all of this. You asked me this earlier. This is why the whole pro-West East-EU is all stirred up. Every country who has areas/provinces with russian speaking majority are afraid that they are gonna turn into conflict zones. Mybe not as great conflict zones as Ukraine, but zones where theres constant rioting and looting and such.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 04:17:09 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 03:47:01 pm
Not all of them and those who didn't got locked in the other country. And it's not the matter of the question, not even the propaganda used to scare them. It's all about how Russian troops invaded Ukraine and annexed a part of it. Or don't you remember how everyone officially refused to acknowledge the presence of Russian troops in Crimea?
I don't remember, I knew that there were russian troops on the border, but only after few weeks when revolution was made in Ukraine. That revolution was illegal. And most of the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia, some ofcourse not. New authorities destabilized the situation in regions, they were thinking only how to get the power in Kiev, that were Yatsenyuk and Turchinov, they both are in one boat with oil princess Timoshenko. They started to fire people from state positions and put their own not professionals. Then they killed one of the leader of Praviy sector, who helped them to make revolution, but then he became compromising them. Then they put out of parlament some people. Then they started civil war. I think in  Ukraine antirussian propoganda is worse then antiukranian in Russia. Kiev authorities didn't think to stabilize regions from the beginig. Nobody went to the Crimea, nobody went to the East. Now many people die every day, who can stop it? Russia? No, Ukraine, it's all new authorities' mistakes I think.
Quote from: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 04:12:50 pm
Ofcourse they did. But that was cause of propaganda entirely. Russia basically lied to them. Stating if you dont join us, you will be ruled by na zi fascist racist overlords who will crucify your children. Basically scaring them with lies that they are in danger.
Lied only a half, there were really nationalists who promised to come and bring an order. That what happend in Odessa with a help of authorities which nobody can find now. Miracle. And that was not the only one reason.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 05:04:59 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 04:17:09 pm
I don't remember, I knew that there were russian troops on the border, but only after few weeks when revolution was made in Ukraine. That revolution was illegal. And most of the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia, some ofcourse not. New authorities destabilized the situation in regions, they were thinking only how to get the power in Kiev, that were Yatsenyuk and Turchinov, they both are in one boat with oil princess Timoshenko. They started to fire people from state positions and put their own not professionals. Then they killed one of the leader of Praviy sector, who helped them to make revolution, but then he became compromising them. Then they put out of parlament some people. Then they started civil war. I think in  Ukraine antirussian propoganda is worse then antiukranian in Russia. Kiev authorities didn't think to stabilize regions from the beginig. Nobody went to the Crimea, nobody went to the East. Now many people die every day, who can stop it? Russia? No, Ukraine, it's all new authorities' mistakes I think.Lied only a half, there were really nationalists who promised to come and bring an order. That what happend in Odessa with a help of authorities which nobody can find now. Miracle. And that was not the only one reason.

Bullshit. You really tried hard not to look like a victim of propaganda but you are. If you really mean what you say then you're an idiot and I don't even want to prove it, we discussed it so many times that it's not even interesting anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 05:12:16 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 05:04:59 pm
Bullshit. You really tried hard not to look like a victim of propaganda but you are. If you really mean what you say then you're an idiot and I don't even want to prove it, we discussed it so many times that it's not even interesting anymore.
try to overpersuade me, because I didn't find any facts that I said something like a bullshit. Victim of what propoganda? Lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 05:36:31 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 05:12:16 pm
try to overpersuade me, because I didn't find any facts that I said something like a bullshit. Victim of what propoganda? Lol

Victim of Russian propaganda obviously. You're wrong in the very roots of your statements, so basically persuading you means making a post with a length of this thread.

Russia annexed Crimea and tries to annex other parts of Ukraine. It's not a civil war and you can't find a peaceful decision there. The only possible peaceful decision is to give up area to Russia and if they do so they must be retarded entirely because it's obvious that Russian would never stop at getting just Donetsk and Lugansk, they would go for Kharkiv, Kherson, Mykolayiv, Zaporizhzhya and Odesa regions at least. And that's a half of Ukraine.

It is a blatant military aggression of Russian Federation and there is no right for any alternative opinion to exist. I don't want to discuss it anymore as it was proven so many times that even a brainless monkey would get persuaded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on August 02, 2014, 05:46:28 pm
Alright, lets try again...
Quote
I don't remember, I knew that there were russian troops on the border, but only after few weeks when revolution was made in Ukraine.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C_%C2%AB%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D0%B0%C2%BB

Is it fake medal? Note the dates: 20.02.14 — 18.03.14
Start date was before maidan ended.
 Actually I hate conspirology, but I find it suspicious that start date on medal matches the date when a lot of people were killed on maidan. Another interesting fact is that leader of rebels Strelkov(Girkin) was in Kiev on that day. As I said I hate consirology, but these are some very strange coincidences.

Quote
That revolution was illegal. And most of the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia, some ofcourse not.
Of course it was. All revolutions are illegal by definition. Also agree with second quoted statement.

Quote
New authorities destabilized the situation in regions, they were thinking only how to get the power in Kiev, that were Yatsenyuk and Turchinov, they both are in one boat with oil princess Timoshenko. They started to fire people from state positions and put their own not professionals.
Several examples? And how did they destablize situation? In fact it was very unstable the day maidan ended, it became much better since then.

Quote
Then they killed one of the leader of Praviy sector, who helped them to make revolution, but then he became compromising them.
Probably true, though I don't understand why wouldn't they use sniper if they wanted to kill him.

Quote
Then they put out of parlament some people. Then they started civil war.
Wrong order. Some people in parliament helped to start civil war and were put out of parliament.

Quote
I think in  Ukraine antirussian propoganda is worse then antiukranian in Russia.
At the moment they are more or less the same, though I don't remember news about how russians crucified small boys. But before war started - they weren't.

Quote
Kiev authorities didn't think to stabilize regions from the beginig. Nobody went to the Crimea, nobody went to the East.
Now that's lie. A lot of politicians were visiting both Crimea and East, especially candidates for president, and tried to talk with people. Just without effect.

Quote
Now many people die every day, who can stop it? Russia? No, Ukraine, it's all new authorities' mistakes I think.
True, our authorities made a lot of mistakes, but that doesn't mean that they started war or that they are fully guilty of it. As of who can stop this - that's right, only Ukraine. By winning this stupid war. Russia can make it quicker by stopping supplying rebels, but I don't expect it to happen.

Quote
That what happend in Odessa with a help of authorities which nobody can find now. Miracle. And that was not the only one reason.
Ask Dave what happened in Odessa, he probably knows better, just one thing.. There were no evil fascists from western Ukraine. Only football fans from Odessa and Kharkiv.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 05:53:50 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 05:36:31 pm
Victim of Russian propaganda obviously. You're wrong in the very roots of your statements, so basically persuading you means making a post with a length of this thread.

Russia annexed Crimea and tries to annex other parts of Ukraine. It's not a civil war and you can't find a peaceful decision there. The only possible peaceful decision is to give up area to Russia and if they do so they must be retarded entirely because it's obvious that Russian would never stop at getting just Donetsk and Lugansk, they would go for Kharkiv, Kherson, Mykolayiv, Zaporizhzhya and Odesa regions at least. And that's a half of Ukraine.

It is a blatant military aggression of Russian Federation and there is no right for any alternative opinion to exist. I don't want to discuss it anymore as it was proven so many times that even a brainless monkey would get persuaded.
Ok now I can say that you are victim of Ukraine propaganda. Watch what is annexing means. That wasn't forcefully made. Second Russia will not take Donetsk and Lugansk. It's just a part of Ukranian propoganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 02, 2014, 05:59:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 05:53:50 pm
Ok now I can say that you are victim of Ukraine propaganda. Watch what is annexing means. That wasn't forcefully made.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 02, 2014, 06:00:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 05:53:50 pm
That wasn't forcefully made.
Russian propaganda confirmed as working very well on Russians
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 02, 2014, 06:00:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 04:17:09 pm
I don't remember, I knew that there were russian troops on the border, but only after few weeks when revolution was made in Ukraine. That revolution was illegal. ...

Every political revolution is illegal. Anyway, i do remember.
The russian press has reported that after the violent roits in Kiev the right sector mob is heading towards to Crimea and there are already over 100 deads.
As prove for the violance on the Crimea they have shown some footages of the streetfights in Kiev.
And then the few days later "selfdefence troops" poped up out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 06:16:32 pm
Quote from: serr on August 02, 2014, 05:46:28 pm
Is it fake medal? Note the dates: 20.02.14 — 18.03.14
Start date was before maidan ended.
 Actually I hate conspirology, but I find it suspicious that start date on medal matches the date when a lot of people were killed on maidan. Another interesting fact is that leader of rebels Strelkov(Girkin) was in Kiev on that day. As I said I hate consirology, but these are some very strange coincidences.
Yes, about medal I heard only from Ukranians, seems fake that it was made on 20.02
Quote
Several examples? And how did they destablize situation? In fact it was very unstable the day maidan ended, it became much better since then.
I meant the revolution destabilized it, much better now but not on the East.
Quote
Wrong order. Some people in parliament helped to start civil war and were put out of parliament.
Party of regions and comunist party always claimed to stop this ATO, and because of that they were put out of parlament, where they helped to start this civil war?
Quote
Now that's lie. A lot of politicians were visiting both Crimea and East, especially candidates for president, and tried to talk with people. Just without effect.
interesting why there wasn't any effects. Maybe they start to visit it to late? I meant they didn't visit them when they could improve relation.
Quote
True, our authorities made a lot of mistakes, but that doesn't mean that they started war or that they are fully guilty of it. As of who can stop this - that's right, only Ukraine. By winning this stupid war. Russia can make it quicker by stopping supplying rebels, but I don't expect it to happen.
That's can be true, or stop ATO, I think russia really supply East, but there is no proof anyway.
Quote
Ask Dave what happened in Odessa, he probably knows better, just one thing.. There were no evil fascists from western Ukraine. Only football fans from Odessa and Kharkiv.
I asked him once, he answered that doesn't matter, because everyday die many people. Well amazing fans you have, it just hard to think that it was unplanned
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 06:31:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 06:16:32 pm
That's can be true, or stop ATO, I think russia really supply East, but there is no proof anyway.

There's shitton of proof. But every freaking pro-russian thinks its fake. Honestly theres a lot of evidence. But only way to stop pro-russians basically denying it is really if someone buys them a ticket to Donensk/Russian border sticks their faces literally infront of a tank that is covered with russian flags and is loudly playing the russian anthem and is driving through the border crossing. Even than I think they would find a way to say that there is no proof, unless it runs on RT news.  :lol:

Like Tovi for instance with claims like "NONO, Russia itself does not use such tanks anymore, thats why its completely impossible that they could give them to someone else cause they just dont exsist anymore, althou they built like thousands of them". And when you explain to him how it could be possible since his logic cant comprehend such simple things. He says "ye......but russian tanks have different modifications, thats why it is completely impossible....." Good god man!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 06:33:48 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 06:31:06 pm
There's shitton of proof. But every freaking pro-russian thinks its fake. Honestly theres a lot of evidence. But only way to stop pro-russians basically denying it is really if someone buys them a ticket to Donensk/Russian border sticks their faces literally infront of a tank that is covered with russian flags and is loudly playing the russian anthem and is driving through the border crossing. Even than I think they would find a way to say that there is no proof, unless it runs on RT news.  :lol:

Like Tovi for instance with claims like "NONO, Russia itself does not use such tanks anymore, thats why its completely impossible that they could give them to someone else cause they just dont exsist anymore, althou they built like thousands of them". And when you explain to him how it could be possible since his logic cant comprehend such simple things. He says "ye......but russian tanks have different modifications, thats why it is completely impossible....." Good god man!
Now there are OSCE mission on the border between Russia nad Ukraine, will see
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on August 02, 2014, 06:38:54 pm
Quote
Yes, about medal I heard only from Ukranians, seems fake that it was made on 20.02
In that article there are lot of russian sources and some photos.

Quote
I meant the revolution destabilized it, much better now but not on the East.
You meant not on territory controlled by separatists. It is much smaller than East and in other eastern regions it's ok.

Quote
Party of regions and comunist party always claimed to stop this ATO, and because of that they were put out of parlament, where they helped to start this civil war?
Party of regions weren't put out of parliament, only comunists were and for good reason. They(party of regions too) tried to use separatists movement to save their power after maidan and first pro-russian protests were organized or supported by them. Also communists not only demanded to stop ATO, they were speaking the same things as russian propaganda do and that was main reason.

Quote
That's can be true, or stop ATO,
Stop ATO... What next? What area to give to DNR... You know, they don't control whole Donetsk and Luhansk regions, only around half of them.
And again, as we already said, if we'll stop ATO, rebels will likely go to next regions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 06:41:07 pm
Ye, OSCE viewers have stated that they are seriuslly pissed off since the separatists fighters constantly keep interrupting their mission. Even if they do find proof that Russia is sending the rebels equipment, most of the russian public would still call it fake and not believe it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 06:50:09 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 06:41:07 pm
Ye, OSCE viewers have stated that they are seriuslly pissed off since the separatists fighters constantly keep interrupting their mission. Even if they do find proof that Russia is sending the rebels equipment, most of the russian public would still call it fake and not believe it.
Show me where they stated this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 07:05:03 pm
Well the first teams started their mission at the beginning of this conflict got instantly captured by the separatists and than released. So they got had absolutely no intel, so quite obvious that they are mad. Look it up its everywhere.

And the teams that were sent to the civilianplane crash site got instantly stalled for many days, cause some other people claimed to be civilians who were actually russian experts were already there and didnt allow them to look at the site themselves until they were done with it. OSCE viewers claimed that parts of the plane had clearly been sawn off, so those russian experts were obviously there to cover evidence.

I was wrong about the bordermission however. Thought I find something but nah. I think its still underway. Absolutely certain if the russians are sending troops and weapons to Ukraine, the OSCE mission will get interupted again. Cause the separatists have now officially kidnapped and stopped OSCE viewers before. I think they will be allowed near the border once russia will stop sending militaryequipment. Cause Donensk is pretty close to being claimed by the Ukrainian army and this fight is pretty close to being lost for the separatists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 07:23:56 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 07:05:03 pm
Well the first teams started their mission at the beginning of this conflict got instantly captured by the separatists and than released. So they got had absolutely no intel, so quite obvious that they are mad. Look it up its everywhere.
They were without any sighns, because they were captured, and wathc their interviews then say.
Quote
And the teams that were sent to the civilianplane crash site got instantly stalled for many days, cause some other people claimed to be civilians who were actually russian experts were already there and didnt allow them to look at the site themselves until they were done with it. OSCE viewers claimed that parts of the plane had clearly been sawn off, so those russian experts were obviously there to cover evidence.
Any proof or anothe western propoganda, give me official OSCE links
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 07:42:25 pm
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121504
and
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2701981/Cockpit-MH17-sawn-half-spot-cordoned-pro-Russian-separatists-two-days-attack.html
Before you say that the source is shit, once again I remind you that I just picked a random one. The guy who made these statements was Michael Bociurkiw and he is the spokesman for the OSCE team there.
also
http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/18/investigators-arrive-at-malaysia-airlines-crash-scene-say-bodies-decomposing/
But this guy is kinda...ehh...too provoking I quess and his CNN. But he was there part of the team. So his story might partially be legit aswell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 08:18:45 pm
That's kinda hilarious how this logic works.
"I can say whatever I want, even an obvious bullshit - prove me wrong and persuade me because I will not prove it. If you say anything else - you must prove it or it's another western propaganda". :rolleyes:
If we post something doubtful (and we always do), try to prove us wrong, just like I do with Tovi's fakes. Because otherwise it looks like one-sided debates. And repeating bullshit after a while simply doesn't work. If you wait for a little bit - most likely it will not become truth, things don't work like that. You assume things and assumptions always involve imprecisions, the more assumptions - the more imprecisions. If your whole thought is based on assumptions it basically is a huge imprecision which is AKA lie in most cases.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 08:21:53 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 07:42:25 pm
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121504
and
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2701981/Cockpit-MH17-sawn-half-spot-cordoned-pro-Russian-separatists-two-days-attack.html
Before you say that the source is shit, once again I remind you that I just picked a random one. The guy who made these statements was Michael Bociurkiw and he is the spokesman for the OSCE team there.
also
http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/18/investigators-arrive-at-malaysia-airlines-crash-scene-say-bodies-decomposing/
But this guy is kinda...ehh...too provoking I quess and his CNN. But he was there part of the team. So his story might partially be legit aswell.
If parts were sawn, then it should be written on Official site of OSCE. Didn't find that. About other things that you wrote they are only your thoughts, not oficial investigation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 02, 2014, 08:34:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 06:33:48 pm
Now there are OSCE mission on the border between Russia nad Ukraine, will see

OSCE observers were allowed by russia to be present in only 2 posts on a stretch of 200km of russian/ukraine border (which I would guess in total should be ~2000km? CBA to search exact numbers). Actual monitoring done - close to zero; usefullnes to brainwashing propaganda close to 100%. Or was this fact comfortably forgotten? I think you should not use this argument to assure, that russia is not supplying separatists anymore, because you sound ridiculous.

Source: http://osce.usmission.gov/jul_24_14_pressrelease.html
Relevant paragraph for the slow readers:
Quote
Despite requests from a number of delegations to expand the geographic scope of the observer mission, Russia would accept only the most limited-scope mission, confined to just two posts –each of which is a few hundred meters wide on a land border nearly 2,000 kilometers in length.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 02, 2014, 08:36:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 02, 2014, 08:21:53 pm
If parts were sawn, then it should be written on Official site of OSCE. Didn't find that. About other things that you wrote they are only your thoughts, not oficial investigation
They arent my thoughts, they are thoughts of the people that were in the team. Somehow im quessing OSCE isnt posting these things on their site yet, till they have all the info they need or whatever other reason. But the people that said these things were on the team that is investigating these things. If they were lying wouldnt other people of the OSCE team say that they were lying? Think about that.

Another thing for you to think about Nicko: Also there is a possibility that if OSCE did indeed post official evidence that the crash site had been compromised or that the separatists were to blame during their investigation, the separatists would turn a lot more hostile against them and would most definately hinder their mission even further. I belive these things will turn up as official reports once their mission is fully completed. Also I couldnt find the russian expert thing anymore. So il give you that much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 02, 2014, 09:42:56 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 12:20:14 am
Okay, here we go. About that "official reports" posted by Tovi.  :rolleyes: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr/2014/07/catastrophic-desertions-and-losses-in.html

Once again I'm busting this fake personally so it's not a copypaste text. I might searched it wrong or maybe it's a very fresh fake so I didn't find any proofs of this being fake but anyway it won't be hard for me. What's pathetic that Russian central TV channels once again showed these "REAL REPORTS" in their news, good job. You can use my proofs and send them to journalists of Russian media, Tovi.

First pic:
(click to show/hide)
1. The first what made my eyes bleed is that they couldn't type the name of the President correctly. Hell yeah, SBU types wrong initials of Poroshenko calling him P.A. instead of P.O. (Petro Oleksiyovych, P.A. can only be written in Russian while his name would sound as Pyotr Alekseyevich).
2. SBU like all the other ministries doesn't use the phrase "цілком таємно" (top secret), this looks like a translated Russian phrase "совершенно секретно" which was (or still is, I don't know) used by KGB. They use only one word "таємно" (secret). Also the font is different to the rest of the document, it can be easily seen.
3. The address is wrong, headquarters of SBU are located on Volodymyrska, 33. The mentioned Malopidvalna, 16 is a place where citizens can contact with SBU (like citizen reception or whatever it's called).
4. Post index is 01601 which is the post index of Khreshyatyk (one of the main streets of Kyiv), the real post index should be 01034.
5. It's approved by a subordinate Vasyl Grytsak which can't be true in SBU or any other military ministry. It should be the opposite, the message is always approved by someone who has a higher position, basically if a head of SBU reports - nobody from SBU can approve it below in the document.
6. The autograph of the head of SBU is taken from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentyn_Nalyvaichenko (there is a couple of other examples of his sign found by me, but this one is an exact copy, pixel to pixel, I checked it)
(click to show/hide)
7. According to this document, Poroshenko made a request for this report at the 1st of July, so it took 18 days to make it. This is not how reports are made during military conflicts.

I don't even mention that the blank itself is not the one which is used by SBU and also how it's written (with emotions and stuff, random percentages, wrong spaces etc.)


2nd picture
(click to show/hide)
Lol, this picture is so fake that I don't even want to comment it but I have to  :lol:
1. Whoever knows Ukrainian can understand clearly that this one is fake, incorrectly translated words, Russian words mixed with Ukrainian and so on.
2. Ukrainian military divisions are obviously fake. There is no such thing as "internal troops", it was removed and reformed to National Guard so it's basically impossible to mention both National Guard and internal troops as it's the same thing. I don't even speak about Right Sector mentioned as the separate military division (:lol:)
3. Same things with autographs. Avakov's sign is taken from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Avakov_%28politician%29 and Grytsak's signature is exactly the same as in the previous document.

Numbers are just hilarious. According to this document Ukrainians lost more than 6300 troops, 35 tanks, 96 APCs, 38 artillery units, 7 military planes, 2 helicopters and 102 military automobiles during less than a week (1600 dead and 4700 wounded). What is this? D-Day in Normandy? And what's funnier: there are only 112 separatists lost (48 dead and 64 wounded). So basically pro-Russians are each and everyone living Rambos. Each dead/wounded separatist manages to kill/wound almost 60 Ukrainian troops, destroy an APC, a tank/artillery unit and an automobile :lol:
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Good work ! I'm impressed. Did you find this yourself or on ukrainian websites ?
Anyway, that's the kind of answer I like, thx.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 02, 2014, 09:48:56 pm
Yes, and look how it payed off. Tovi is happy. And you got such a great discussion out of it. Was so totally worth it. What is it now, the 5th or 6th time you completely obliterate Tovi's "sources", and his response is simply to ignore it as he prepares his next load of diarhea to spill all over this thread. Magical.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 02, 2014, 10:30:03 pm

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121431

Quote
The SMM obtained very limited access to the crash site of Malaysia Airlines MH17, which came down on 17 July near Hrabove (79 km east of Donetsk). There were dead bodies at the scene, marked, but exposed to the elements. No process of debris collection was observed. Some of the ’Donetsk People’s Republic’s‘ guards were visibly intoxicated and aggressive.

So yeah, the OSCE mission was not able to monitor anything. They couldn't even confirm the number of recovered bodies in the trains ffs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 02, 2014, 10:45:35 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 02, 2014, 09:42:56 pm
Good work ! I'm impressed. Did you find this yourself or on ukrainian websites ?
Anyway, that's the kind of answer I like, thx.

I did this myself as the majority of other investigations about your posts. I'm actually glad that you're happy with my reply. I just wanted you to understand that your sources provide fake information, and it's not the first time I prove it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 02, 2014, 11:20:04 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 02, 2014, 10:30:03 pm

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/121431

So yeah, the OSCE mission was not able to monitor anything. They couldn't even confirm the number of recovered bodies in the trains ffs.


What are you waiting from a monitoring of 24 hours?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 02, 2014, 11:26:14 pm
I don't understand. Was that even a sentence?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 02, 2014, 11:50:12 pm
Frankly, I had some doubts about this document, because casualties were very different between the 2 sides.

I'm still seeking a reliable source about casualities during last fights.

Mmmh, right now, what do I have...
This :

Quote
The European Council established a mission to assist Ukraine in matters of national security (EUAM Ukraine), which will be headed by Kálmán Mizsei.

For an announced period of 2 years, but possibly extending to 10, he will advise and oversee the Ukrainian government to reform its police and army forces.

Kálmán Mizsei is a Hungarian banker who specializes in privatization processes. He held key positions at the Institute for East West Security Studies in New York (1992-1995) (which currently publishes a daily newsletter on Ukraine), and at the AIG Global Investment Group (1997-2001). He became Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations and served as UNDP Regional Director for Europe and the CIS (2001-2006), then as special representative of the European Union to the Republic of Moldova (2007-2011).
He is close to George Soros.

Not spectacular, but it shows how the West put his men in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 03, 2014, 06:00:01 am
oMGZ0Rz!!44111

A hungarian banker who is in contact with another hungarian born "banker"?!! Who would have ever thought?

Dear god Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 03, 2014, 03:31:54 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 02, 2014, 11:50:12 pm
Frankly, I had some doubts about this document, because casualties were very different between the 2 sides.
I'm still seeking a reliable source about casualities during last fights.

Try RT news. Pretty sure it rates the casualties to be around 1-2 billion, all children and beheaded by samurai sword wielding ukrainians who are speaking german and wearing WW2 german helmets. Seriuslly man. Listen to yourself. How can you belive this shit. Na zi ukrainians whose sole purpose is to kill civilians, working together with USA to start WW3, so USA can pay its massive dept, while the poor misunderstood russians with great leader Putin are working so hard to prevent it and restore balance to Europe. This is what you basically have stated in this whole thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on August 03, 2014, 04:16:38 pm
The future.

http://www.echo.msk.ru/blog/troitskiy/1371840-echo/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 03, 2014, 04:30:13 pm
Link for fascist western zionist non-slavic speakers:
http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.echo.msk.ru%2Fblog%2Ftroitskiy%2F1371840-echo%2F
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 03, 2014, 07:48:46 pm
Quote from: okiN on August 03, 2014, 04:16:38 pm
The future.

http://www.echo.msk.ru/blog/troitskiy/1371840-echo/
in your wet dreams  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 03, 2014, 09:06:15 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 03, 2014, 07:48:46 pm
in your wet dreams  :P

I would replace the Pomeranian region with Konigsberg (currently known as Kaliningrad) and this becomes WAY WAY too likely, especially since russia suddenly started redrawing borders which were settled after WW2  :rolleyes:
 
(for some reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast#Soviet_Union )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 03, 2014, 09:27:44 pm
Man fate of Königsberg is really sad imo. A town with massive history like that. Got given to the red army WW2, they expelled or enslaved the native population and than destroyed the entire town completely. Would have been a really remarkable town had the Soviet Union ordered its rebuilding after the war instead of burning it to the ground for being too german by culture....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 03, 2014, 10:33:24 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 03, 2014, 09:27:44 pm
Man fate of Königsberg is really sad imo. A town with massive history like that. Got given to the red army WW2, they expelled or enslaved the native population and than destroyed the entire town completely. Would have been a really remarkable town had the Soviet Union ordered its rebuilding after the war instead of burning it to the ground for being too german by culture....

The city was destroyed at 95% by allies/soviet union bombing/shelling before and during the final siege of 1945, it was rebuilt post-capture as Kaliningrad.
It wasnt "given" to the red army, it was conquered and the price was around 60 000 casualties for the Russians.
I dont know where you learnt that they enslaved the native population, I just read that the german population was expelled.

Good attempt at rewriting history, but a bit too big to pass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 03, 2014, 10:47:55 pm


 :P :P :P :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 04, 2014, 12:19:16 am
Quote from: Butan on August 03, 2014, 10:33:24 pm
The city was destroyed at 95% by allies/soviet union bombing/shelling before and during the final siege of 1945, it was rebuilt post-capture as Kaliningrad.
It wasnt "given" to the red army, it was conquered and the price was around 60 000 casualties for the Russians.
Quote
But when the Allied Forces gave the essentially destroyed City of Königsberg to the Soviets in 1945 they took a different approach. They simply bulldozed the remains of most bombed-out structures away after going through the rubble for still-usable building materials which were shipped back to Mother Russia. Thus, the possibility of their eventual restoration was essentially eliminated, while some buildings were left standing in their bombed-out condition until as recent as today Also the % is extremely debatable. Some say 80% and some say 40%. Who knows. Il give the "giving" part as debatable aswell.
I dont know where you learnt that they enslaved the native population, I just read that the german population was expelled.
Quote
The remaining population of some 300,000 Germans was condemned to forced labor and subjected to starvation and epidemics.
Also massrape was a thing for the brave red army and over 13 million people were displaced. The soviets made a gigantic mass ethnic cleansing in the area. I cant find the link anymore, but it kinda stated that when the time came to rebuild some of the architecture, the guy in charge ordered even more of it to be taken down, since it had to much similarities to the german culture. Ofcourse some of it was rebuilt during WW2.

Good attempt at rewriting history, but a bit too big to pass.
Why must you always argue when you have been proven so wrong so many times? You should always consider passing. Nomatter how big.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 04, 2014, 12:33:08 am
There is enough historical events to give russians a bad name, why must you create more I wonder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 04, 2014, 09:56:55 am
Quote from: Butan on August 04, 2014, 12:33:08 am
There is enough historical events to give russians a bad name, why must you create more I wonder.
There is enough French people in this forum to give France a bad name, why must you keep being one I wonder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 04, 2014, 10:23:18 am
let's take a break from swearing and enjoy the beautiful music

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on August 04, 2014, 11:17:11 am
Quote from: Butan on August 04, 2014, 12:33:08 am
There is enough historical events to give russians a bad name, why must you create more I wonder.

Not sure why you think he's making it up, that the Russians totally neglected the postwar restoration of Königsberg is hardly a secret. They've done just as bad a job with other annexed areas, only reason they're not quite as fucked as Kaliningrad today is that they weren't in such a bad state when they fell into Soviet hands. As for the other thing:

Quote from: Wiki
About 120,000 survivors remained in the ruins of the devastated city. These survivors, mainly women, children and the elderly, plus a few others who had returned immediately after the fighting ended, were held as slave labourers until 1949. The vast majority of the German civilians left in Königsberg after 1945 died from disease or starvation, or in revenge-driven ethnic cleansing.[65] The remaining 20,000 German residents were expelled in 1949–50.[66]

I'm sure you could find lots of sources if you were actually interested.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 04, 2014, 01:45:26 pm
Missed that source, mea culpa  :wink:

In the same wiki part, they speak of russians and poles slave laborers under german rule, and death marchs + mass executions at the end of the nazi regime, I guess thats where the revenge-driven ethnic cleansing comes. Some background information doesnt hurt :)


Still calling bullshit on the overly exagerated bits of Tibe post. When you use words like enslaving entire native population and burning the city to the ground, you better back it with source and not just anti-russianism, which has became the norm in this thread, and this is the sad part imo, not how Konigsberg was treated 70 years ago.




When is the last time someone posted a hot news on whats happening in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on August 04, 2014, 02:00:41 pm
One thing I don't understand from military point of view, and I would really appreciate if someone would explain it to me.

Looking at the map, I don't understand why UKR army is focusing on encircling directly Donetsk and Luhansk. I expect this would be followed by an attack to those cities.

The most logical thing would be, IMHO, to concentrate to cutting off border with Russia. In doing so they would be able to use planes, tanks, artillery and whatnot, because there would be no fears of rebels using human shields or protecting themselves in basements and buildings they would in Donetsk and Luhansk. And at the same time, it would mean effectively cutting off both of these cities, since food and ammunition are definately coming from across the border. Eventually if the border is firmly held, they would have no choice but to surrender. Urban warfare, as proven here in former Yugoslavia, is a nightmare for the attackers, even when they don't give a shit for lives of civilians.

I am sure there is a logic behind what UKR army is doing, but I don't get it. If someone would explain this to me I would appreciate it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 04, 2014, 02:29:49 pm
Quote from: Corwin on August 04, 2014, 02:00:41 pm
(click to show/hide)
if they will control the entire border, they can not accuse Russia of supporting terrorists. Nobody will give money for the fight against terrorism, but for the war with Russia there is alot sponsors. a fortiori  that all loans are returned back to them for the purchase of weapons. Why spend the credits for the restoration of the plant, the construction of which is necessary to report that, much more tempting to buy shells, shoot 100 report on the 1000.  war is a good business ^^

Quote from: Butan on August 04, 2014, 01:45:26 pm
When is the last time someone posted a hot news on whats happening in Ukraine?
nothing new, Ukrainians shelling separatists and civilians, separatists shelling themselves and civilians, Russians bombs all XD

I'm a little surprised why the Russian or the terrorists have not yet been bombed OSCE mission or EU commision on crash site  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 04, 2014, 03:07:54 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 04, 2014, 02:29:49 pm
nothing new, Ukrainians shelling separatists and civilians, separatists shelling themselves and civilians, Russians bombs all XD

I'm a little surprised why the Russian or the terrorists have not yet been bombed OSCE mission or EU commision on crash site  :?


Surely there is a little more to that, details and all, from multiple point of views!

I would gladly go back to a hundred page ago, at least we were arguing on things that we know happened in Ukraine, not history or conspirations :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 04, 2014, 03:31:19 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 04, 2014, 03:07:54 pm

Surely there is a little more to that, details and all, from multiple point of views!

I would gladly go back to a hundred page ago, at least we were arguing on things that we know happened in Ukraine, not history or conspirations :P
Tovi and you only accepting viewpoints which fit your general idea of "truth" makes it pretty pointless to post any information in this thread...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 04, 2014, 04:02:02 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 04, 2014, 01:45:26 pm
Still calling bullshit on the overly exagerated bits of Tibe post. When you use words like enslaving entire native population and burning the city to the ground, you better back it with source and not just anti-russianism, which has became the norm in this thread, and this is the sad part imo, not how Konigsberg was treated 70 years ago.

Please explain how clearing out your ignorance of history is even remotely similar to "anti-russianism" ?

Anti-russianism would be "There are so many russian alcoholics, they must be weak-willed to succumb so easily to the bottle".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 04, 2014, 04:13:07 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2014, 03:31:19 pm
Tovi and you only accepting viewpoints which fit your general idea of "truth" makes it pretty pointless to post any information in this thread...

For evil stupid to win it is enough for good people everyone else to simply do say nothing.

As to why it the border is not yet fully closed - I can think of a few reasons:
1. You want your enemy to be predictable - thus you leave a corridor for them to get supplies. Once you have enough progress elsewhere (and maybe the border with russia reinforced WHOLE 2k of kilometers) - the corridor can be closed quickly enough. +in this manner it is easier to observe and gather intelligence on the capabilities/supplies being transferred. What you DON'T want in place of Ukraine army is 2000 km of border with armed idiots punching through in once place or another. And while this explanation partially feeds Vovkas conspiracy theory - one has to choose a lesser evil in this case. So when it comes to LONG and tough to control border Vs narrow and observable border - choose the lesser evil: narrow and observable one.
2. The corridor is maximum distance away from Donetsk. Longer supply lines mean more problems for separatists and more opportunities for ambush by Ukrainian troops.
3. Might be logistical/terrain issues, but these are impossibru to figure out, without detailed knowledge of the area and logistical situation. E.g. if the territory is all swamps and forests and majority of roads go the general east to west direction - then the movement of Ukraine forces from North to south would be very complicated and slow. Same, but worse with supplies - if there is no even remotely reliable way to supply the troops - they would stand all too real risk of being surrounded and destroyed.

Thats my two cents about the corridor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 04, 2014, 05:03:19 pm
This thread as nothing to do with being anti-russian, and everything to do with sympathizing with the Ukrainian people who had enough of corruption and russian dominance. (the two goes hand in hand)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 04, 2014, 05:28:25 pm
Quote from: Corwin on August 04, 2014, 02:00:41 pm
(click to show/hide)
Simply by encircling but not fully assaulting Donetsk and Luhansk is basically cutting them off from food and ammunition and confining them to a smaller area. Dunno if this is true but the army said that their positions got bombed near the border by the russians. If by any chance this is true, than they are making the right call, cause otherwise they would lose soldiers for nothing cause they cant fire back at the russians for obvious reasons ofcourse. If its not true, than yea, I dunno why dont they just cut off the border.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on August 04, 2014, 11:03:30 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 04, 2014, 02:29:49 pm
I'm a little surprised why the Russian or the terrorists have not yet been bombed OSCE mission or EU commision on crash site  :?

Because they're not at the crash site since it's not possible to go there without risking getting shelled.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 05, 2014, 01:58:10 am
27 000 Russian tourists stranded abroad as travel company collapses after economic sanctions (http://www.euronews.com/2014/08/04/russian-tourists-stranded-abroad-as-travel-company-collapses)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 05, 2014, 05:31:54 am
Quote from: Christo on August 05, 2014, 01:58:10 am
27 000 Russian tourists stranded abroad as travel company collapses after economic sanctions (http://www.euronews.com/2014/08/04/russian-tourists-stranded-abroad-as-travel-company-collapses)
this is unlikely due to the sanctions, looks like an common scam. We had  the same  in the previous years  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 05, 2014, 06:36:54 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 05, 2014, 05:31:54 am
this is unlikely due to the sanctions, looks like an common scam. We had  the same  in the previous years  :P

Have a better article.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28637794 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28637794)

Have to say after a second read that the euronews one is shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 05, 2014, 07:42:23 am
Quote from: Christo on August 05, 2014, 06:36:54 am
Have a better article.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28637794 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28637794)

Have to say after a second read that the euronews one is shit.

This article is even more wild mess of facts unrelated to each other )
Labyrinth cooperated with Orienburg  airlines, which if I'm not mistaken is not affected by the sanctions, and furthermore took the transportation of "Dobrolet" that really hurt.

By the way, our government right now is thinking about closing the aviation area for western airlines XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on August 05, 2014, 09:04:32 am
Quote from: Corwin on August 04, 2014, 02:00:41 pm
One thing I don't understand from military point of view, and I would really appreciate if someone would explain it to me.

Looking at the map, I don't understand why UKR army is focusing on encircling directly Donetsk and Luhansk. I expect this would be followed by an attack to those cities.

The most logical thing would be, IMHO, to concentrate to cutting off border with Russia. In doing so they would be able to use planes, tanks, artillery and whatnot, because there would be no fears of rebels using human shields or protecting themselves in basements and buildings they would in Donetsk and Luhansk. And at the same time, it would mean effectively cutting off both of these cities, since food and ammunition are definately coming from across the border. Eventually if the border is firmly held, they would have no choice but to surrender. Urban warfare, as proven here in former Yugoslavia, is a nightmare for the attackers, even when they don't give a shit for lives of civilians.

I am sure there is a logic behind what UKR army is doing, but I don't get it. If someone would explain this to me I would appreciate it.

Russians brazenly use artillery around 10 miles into the Ukranian border or something like that. Its what that Russian soldier nerd kept tweeting photos of himself doing, he was an artillery crewmen bragging about shelling Ukraine soil in between selfies. And if Ukraine does anything to silence those batteries, it would be a perfect propaganda tool for Russians to escalate the intensity of their involvement in order to preserve supply lines over the border. So it looks like Ukraine is working on creating pockets from their side of the territory for mini envelopments while struggling with seperatists being resupplied and rearmed with heavy weaponry and advisors.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 05, 2014, 07:27:18 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 05, 2014, 07:42:23 am
This article is even more wild mess of facts unrelated to each other )
Labyrinth cooperated with Orienburg  airlines, which if I'm not mistaken is not affected by the sanctions, and furthermore took the transportation of "Dobrolet" that really hurt.

By the way, our government right now is thinking about closing the aviation area for western airlines XD

It will hurt your government and country more than the west.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 05, 2014, 08:23:30 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 05, 2014, 07:27:18 pm
It will hurt your government and country more than the west.
Didn't you know, that what does not destroy you - makes you stronker! Like... DRINKING VODKA! Thusly - russians can drink stronkest and muchest vodka (or samagon, or odekalon).

In other news -  https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rebel-fighter-speaks-against-east-ukraine-separatist-leaders-125523159.html#CCsVRLU .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 05, 2014, 09:11:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 05, 2014, 08:23:30 pm
In other news -  https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rebel-fighter-speaks-against-east-ukraine-separatist-leaders-125523159.html#CCsVRLU .
no news is better than this trash  :P

 Hot news. From our source that confirms our source we learned that the Russian group of patriots (we can not name them for security reasons) is going in the evenings at the apartment (we can not call address for security reasons), they drink whiskey and sing all night insulting songs about Putin and Medvedev.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 05, 2014, 11:05:00 pm
"Separatists bomb themselves" Kiev says
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 06, 2014, 07:04:16 am
Ukranian troops cross the border into Russia to save their lifes, about 400 troops have already crossed the border. Russia helps them and sends back to Ukraine, where they will be judged for desertion. Ok let's listen what Jen Psaki thinks about it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 06, 2014, 11:58:11 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 04, 2014, 04:02:02 pm
Anti-russianism would be "There are so many russian alcoholics, they must be weak-willed to succumb so easily to the bottle".

Anti-russianism isnt limited to that, and even if it was just about blaming russian alcoholism, then there is plenty of anti-russians in this thread :lol:
Anyway, its not like I was waiting for you guys to confess in public, within your own circlejerk, that you are all too busy trying to find anything to call names on Russians in a thread where they are the main villain.



Quote from: Turkhammer on August 05, 2014, 07:27:18 pm
It will hurt your government and country more than the west.

Both blocks are pretending the opposite, with no care for how it impacts their population. Their people are even almost happy when they hear unemployment or bankruptcy is increasing abroad.
It looks like cold war 2, except that you replace the arms race with economical sanctions race: who will collapse the first?



On the warfare part, as long as Ukraine keeps struggling internally and Russia/EU/US doesnt involve themselves in more than unconventional warfare, there should be no worldwide consequences.
Nothing says it doesnt go up a notch in the future though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on August 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 06, 2014, 12:21:44 pm
Quote from: Corwin on August 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.
the most important part, that if the Living standard in Russia dropped by 200% nuks will drop on  Europe - Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.  XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2014, 12:29:54 pm
Quote from: Corwin on August 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.
Doubt that's a healthy mind set for a populace tho and you make it sound like it is... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 06, 2014, 01:21:14 pm
Quote from: Corwin on August 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.
When you say "one thing to consider", you make it sound like this is a fact. It's not. It's just your opinion. I'm not holding my breath waiting for western governments to fall because of Russia's economical sanctions....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 06, 2014, 01:24:43 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2014, 12:29:54 pm
Doubt that's a healthy mind set for a populace tho and you make it sound like it is... :rolleyes:

Its  a bit relative... Lets say your "Living Standart" in West is "over 9000" 8-) 10% of that might be more than 50% of russian "Living Standart", thus - the impact is also bigger.

It's also about expectations and management of thereof - when you don't expect anything good - the impact of that bad happening is smaller. I would doubt anyone would hold putler accountable for the sanctions his actions brought about, because its the fault "OF THEM" and one would NEVER be allowed to consider in some high profile RT program that maybe current government is actually doing complete bat-shit crazy bullshit and the fault is on the current government instead of "THEM".

Its healthy for sheep populace, which one wants/needs to control. Its not healthy if you want the populace to be akin to swedes or austrians.

And a nice timelapse of recent Ukraine warfare action: http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/LiveUMap-Timelapse-July-13-Aug5.gif
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on August 06, 2014, 01:31:16 pm
Quote
And a nice timelapse of recent Ukraine warfare action: http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/LiveUMap-Timelapse-July-13-Aug5.gif

Sadly, it's a bit too optimistic. In fact our army almost cut DNR from LNR, but only almost. Separatists still control road Shakhtarsk-Torez, though it's not safe for them anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 06, 2014, 01:38:22 pm
Quote from: Corwin on August 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.

It may be a cultural reality (russian being tougher) but it could also be a fabrication of the minds... I'm not sure if they would fare that much better if the reality was as you depicted (living standard dropping both sides).


Quote from: serr on August 06, 2014, 01:31:16 pm
Sadly, it's a bit too optimistic. In fact our army almost cut DNR from LNR, but only almost. Separatists still control road Shakhtarsk-Torez, though it's not safe for them anymore.

Just a side question: how united/divided are the DNR and LNR in terms of leadership and military control? Its the same body but divided in two regional zones, or they act separately?

And thanks Kuujis for the timelapse, interesting to see the zone of control over time. If the size is accurately depicted, the Donetsk part has been pretty cut down. But does it mean that they have progressively retreated to safer/more concentrated zones, or did they also lose manpower and strategical points?




Meanwhile in Ukraine... the war for correct wording continues ! http://mfa.gov.ua/en/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26235-ukraine-urges-great-britain-to-recognize-so-called-dnr-and-lnr-as-terrorists
The rebels are terrorists, I urge the world to recognize them as such, because they are undoubtedly, and not just because its a bad word that will mean people think bad of them!


Those past few years, the term of terrorist has been so misused.
Now it only is a word which is used by nations to describe a small opposing force.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on August 06, 2014, 01:53:22 pm
Quote
Just a side question: how united/divided are the DNR and LNR in terms of leadership and military control? Its the same body but divided in two regional zones, or they act separately?

They have common enemy and they are supplied by Russia, that's what unite them. Other than that they are very different, there are some conflicts between them. Roughly, without going in details, LNR want to build USSR and DNR want to build Russian Empire.
Also DNR has better commanders, but LNR is closer to Russia and therefore have more equipment, especially tanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 06, 2014, 02:21:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 06, 2014, 01:38:22 pm
And thanks Kuujis for the timelapse, interesting to see the zone of control over time. If the size is accurately depicted, the Donetsk part has been pretty cut down. But does it mean that they have progressively retreated to safer/more concentrated zones, or did they also lose manpower and strategical points?
Well... Its easy to control open fields and its HARD to hold them against stronger foe. Thus - its the only logical and semi-viable, even if regrettable, tactic to retreat to a city. In the most recent VICE News dispatch Ukr officers said they were finding a bunch of abandoned control posts, so it is likely, that the separatists retreated without even a fight to "fight another day".
Its actually what Lithuania has in its plans for defence until (hopefuly) NATO comes in case of an attack - dig-in and stand ground in cities. Its NOTORIOUSLY difficult to wage wars in cities... Then again - if one is russian and has leaders like putler - well... there was this one town called Grozno, where standing ground in a city was attempted.


Quote from: Butan on August 06, 2014, 01:38:22 pm
Meanwhile in Ukraine... the war for correct wording continues ! http://mfa.gov.ua/en/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26235-ukraine-urges-great-britain-to-recognize-so-called-dnr-and-lnr-as-terrorists
The rebels are terrorists, I urge the world to recognize them as such, because they are undoubtedly, and not just because its a bad word that will mean people think bad of them!

Those past few years, the term of terrorist has been so misused.
Now it only is a word which is used by nations to describe a small opposing force.
Did you by chance had an opportuninty to study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics ? I have one friend who had, she is VERY like you in this regard of new usage for words...
It only took half a year for a symbol of Bravery and Heroism in WW2 (in reality afaik its 100+ years old) to become a marking of some separatists causing all kinds of bs in Ukraine. MAYBE they want to see themselves as heroes, but to a HUGE part of former participants in WW2 they are mere wannabees and bandits... Words and symbols change meaning, sometimes its a matter of POV. I think there are plenty in current war zone, who would label separatists as bandits, idiots, robbers, thugs and what not... And there are those who thing that the Saing George strips still represent what they once used to represent (GUESS what I think?  :rolleyes: )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 06, 2014, 03:32:15 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 06, 2014, 01:38:22 pm
It may be a cultural reality (russian being tougher) but it could also be a fabrication of the minds... I'm not sure if they would fare that much better if the reality was as you depicted (living standard dropping both sides).

It mainly still depends on the goods traded to eachother. The West imports mainly fuels, as far as ive understood almost all EU countries in theory anyway can survive without importing fuel from Russia, its just that average livingcost is gonna be hell of a lot more expensive for the regular citizens. Especially during winter. Russia imports more viable things. Like food. As much as I know if they are gonna get their ass sanctioned out of them, meat is gonna be a very rare thing in Russia cause they dont produce enough to fill the needs of their own market atm. But they can easly survive that aswell, by just eating....well other things. Both are gonna have a tough time eventually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 06, 2014, 04:37:23 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 06, 2014, 03:32:15 pm
It mainly still depends on the goods traded to eachother. The West imports mainly fuels, as far as ive understood almost all EU countries in theory anyway can survive without importing fuel from Russia,

 
tell them how to do it, and you will be the new president of Europe  :P just lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 06, 2014, 05:01:45 pm
Way to cut off half of my text and put it out of context.....Da fuck is wrong with u dude?

By fuel I ment natural gas. One might look at a chart like this:
(click to show/hide)
and say "wow 100% they must really be dependant". But thats wrong. That chart just shows how much gas is imported from russia, not how much gas is USED. Countries natural gas input in energy consumption is relatively small and they can easly be replaced by other fuels. Like I said, one can survive without it, but its gonna be a lot more costly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 06, 2014, 05:36:07 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 06, 2014, 04:37:23 pm

tell them how to do it, and you will be the new president of Europe  :P just lol

Germany could reverse the rash decision to cut it's nuclear power plants.  The USA passed both Russia and Saudi Arabia as the world's leading producer of oil in 2013 and is projected to remain so until 2030 or so and it has huge reserves of natural gas.  There are alternates for Europe to Russian oil and gas but they aren't short term options.  It would take several years to build the infrastructure required.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 06, 2014, 06:11:50 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 06, 2014, 05:01:45 pm
Countries natural gas input in energy consumption is relatively small and they can easly be replaced by other fuels.
Sure for president :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 06, 2014, 07:29:39 pm

Three Ukranian journalists were freed, All ukranian medias said that separatists kidnapped them and then let them free, but that was Ukranian troops, they stole all money, cameras and so on kept them for 5 days doing wierd things for Ukranians, there is no english subtitles
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 06, 2014, 11:35:21 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 06, 2014, 05:01:45 pm
Way to cut off half of my text and put it out of context.....Da fuck is wrong with u dude?
By fuel I ment natural gas. One might look at a chart like this:
(click to show/hide)
and say "wow 100% they must really be dependant". But thats wrong. That chart just shows how much gas is imported from russia, not how much gas is USED. Countries natural gas input in energy consumption is relatively small and they can easly be replaced by other fuels. Like I said, one can survive without it, but its gonna be a lot more costly.
whole manufacture are designed for a specific type and brand of energy carrier and you're trying to say that a switching from gas or oil to another source of energy, about the same as to change the supplier of meat / vegetables / equipment / medicines (insert your own). Anyway http://rt.com/news/178484-putin-russia-sanctions-agriculture/
Hope tomorrow EU will ban import gas and oil from russia for 1 year   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 06, 2014, 11:50:39 pm
It's amazing that the Russian government managed to find a response that would have a larger impact on its own population than the international community sanctions against Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 07, 2014, 12:20:38 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 06, 2014, 11:50:39 pm
It's amazing that the Russian government managed to find a response that would have a larger impact on its own population than the international community sanctions against Russia.
Is it, though? ANYTHING they do is going to have a larger impact on themselves than the international community.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 07, 2014, 01:03:55 am
Quote from: Xant on August 07, 2014, 12:20:38 am
Is it, though? ANYTHING they do is going to have a larger impact on themselves than the international community.

What I was saying is that the international sanctions had only a small impact on the Russian population. And I expect those Russian government bans to have a larger impact on the Russian population than the international sanctions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 07, 2014, 02:10:48 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 07, 2014, 01:03:55 am
What I was saying is that the international sanctions had only a small impact on the Russian population. And I expect those Russian government bans to have a larger impact on the Russian population than the international sanctions.
Yes, but what are they going to do? To do anything big enough to have an effect on the international community, they'll have to hurt themselves, badly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on August 07, 2014, 02:13:06 am
Sadly Russia has a long tradition of treating their own people the worst.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 07, 2014, 08:44:12 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on August 07, 2014, 02:13:06 am
Sadly Russia has a long tradition of treating their own people the worst.
Vovka - did you already pick a neighboring EU country for your grand shopping needs? Because I see a HELL LOT of russians in Vilnius and Klaipėda doing their shopping en-masse. Even the friggin anouncements on the speakers in the shopping malls are bilingual these days... :?

EDIT: And to keep this on topic

EDIT2: I would be DAMN interested to hear, what russians thing about outlooks like this: www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11017413/Vladimir-Putins-pointless-conflict-with-Europe-leaves-it-a-vassal-of-China.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 07, 2014, 09:01:53 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 07, 2014, 08:44:12 am
Vovka - did you already pick a neighboring EU country for your grand shopping needs? Because I see a HELL LOT of russians in Vilnius and Klaipėda doing their shopping en-masse. Even the friggin anouncements on the speakers in the shopping malls are bilingual these days... :?
EDIT: And to keep this on topic
it's just awful! Millions of people took to the streets of St. Petersburg! they all shout "Putin huylo" beat car made ​​in Russia, blacks and Jews. Require Latvian and Estonian sprats and potatoes. In my eyes they caught officials stripped him and unrolled by paver!
I will keep you informed on the progress of Holodomor in Russia, and now I have to run, I need to have time to buy 5 boxes of sardines, a week later I will change it to the jewelry and iPhones
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 07, 2014, 09:56:16 am
I have never seen western products in my city. Damn now I will never see them, stupid sanctions 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on August 07, 2014, 10:08:30 am
Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2014, 12:29:54 pm
Doubt that's a healthy mind set for a populace tho and you make it sound like it is... :rolleyes:

I never said that one or the other is healthy, that's just in your head. I was just stating an opinion, having in mind how the political system in Russia works, historical lessons and prevailing mindset.


Quote from: Butan on August 06, 2014, 01:38:22 pm
It may be a cultural reality (russian being tougher) but it could also be a fabrication of the minds... I'm not sure if they would fare that much better if the reality was as you depicted (living standard dropping both sides).

It has nothing to do with being tougher. The fact is that the Russian people is used to suffering and never really had any period of real prosperity in their history. There are a lot of people like that, a fact that is very difficult for someone from the West to understand. Same goes for Ukrainians, for example.


Being probably only one on this topic that actually lives in a country that went through both war and international sanctions I can tell you that in terms of support to Putin's politics, this can backfire. Because it would give immense tools for propaganda and population may actualy support their leader even more. Especially if they believe that he is trying to protect their poor country agains international conspiracy that has a goal to enslave them and take their resources. And anyone saying differently can easily be branded as a traitor to national interests.

My point being, sanctions wont achieve anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 07, 2014, 10:14:16 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 06, 2014, 05:36:07 pm
Germany could reverse the rash decision to cut it's nuclear power plants. [...]
Why should we? There is not one single good reason to do so.
Renewable energy provides over 30% of the whole energy consumption in Germany. That is the single biggest block sorted by production. Nuclear energy is 3rd place.
Germany exports energy for 3.8 billion and imports for 1.9 billion. Tendency raising...
There is simply no reason as long as there is TWh export going on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 07, 2014, 11:27:30 am
Quote from: Corwin on August 07, 2014, 10:08:30 am
My point being, sanctions wont achieve anything.
Again, says you, based on nothing but "I feel like..."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 07, 2014, 12:53:45 pm
Russians retaliatory sanctions on the EU, although may harm the Russian economy will not sink it. Russia's economy is stronger than many EU states and the less the EU export and the higher the energy prices of the energy imported by the EU the greater it  would have a direct negative impact on any purported crawling EU economic recovery. When people point out Russia's economy will this and that they forget the state of our own economies and under-estimate the harm our own governments actions will have on us all, by forcing Russia into a retaliatory position.

The global economy is in no fine shape to be messed around with, unfortunately that's what the E.U, U.S and Russia in retaliation are now doing, messing with the global economy and threatening economic recovery across the board.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 07, 2014, 03:43:32 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 06, 2014, 11:35:21 pm
whole manufacture are designed for a specific type and brand of energy carrier and you're trying to say that a switching from gas or oil to another source of energy, about the same as to change the supplier of meat / vegetables / equipment / medicines (insert your own). Anyway http://rt.com/news/178484-putin-russia-sanctions-agriculture/
Hope tomorrow EU will ban import gas and oil from russia for 1 year   :P
I didnt say it was the same. I just stated that both will suffer. Which isnt a false statement. And dont overexaggerate. The only part of the entire manufacturingcircle that needs to do any kind of switching at all is the powerplants. The other parts of the circle, that manufacture actual goods, only need electricity. To everybody else it doesnt matter if its by coal, gas or nuclearenergy aslong as it is electricity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 07, 2014, 04:05:15 pm
Хорошо, что Крым наш. Его и будем есть в холодные зимы— Никотинка с Бровями (@Yoghikitt) August 6, 2014

Россия встаёт с колен и бежит в Беларусь за картошкой, молоком и сгущёнкой!— РБ головного мозга (@belamova) August 6, 2014

«Рейтинг Путина вырос до 87%».
Да вообще жрать запретите — этот народ ещё в жопу расцелует.— Вязаный Твитер (@twitted_knitter) August 6, 2014

Новое меню в ресторане Ксении Собчак "Бублик". Карпаччо из лопухов, кора осины на пару и десерт замороженная вода.— Николай Полозов (@Moscow_advokat) August 6, 2014

Следующий шаг - законопроект об ежегодном отборе двух несовершеннолетних жителей каждого субъекта РФ для участия в реалити-шоу на Первом.— Хуевый Эмигрант (@ReggaeMortis1) August 6, 2014

Since "Pervoj" is not being shown where I live - please share youtube links, once the show starts?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 07, 2014, 04:37:02 pm
MURRICA! :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 07, 2014, 07:08:31 pm
Definitely a russian agent undercover, a real one coming straight from "The Americans" TV show  :P

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 07, 2014, 11:13:23 pm
Unfortunately only in russian, but still - an epic dialogue:)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 07, 2014, 11:40:35 pm
 Zhirinovsky is proffesional troll. This guy too weak for him.   :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 08, 2014, 01:00:51 am
Russian MPs say Mikhail Gorbachev should be prosecuted for treason (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/10/russian-mps-say-mikhail-gorbachev-should-prosecuted-treason)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 08, 2014, 02:27:02 am
Quote from: Leshma on August 08, 2014, 01:00:51 am
Russian MPs say Mikhail Gorbachev should be prosecuted for treason (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/10/russian-mps-say-mikhail-gorbachev-should-prosecuted-treason)

Christ, what clowns.

Quote from: Molly on August 07, 2014, 10:14:16 am
Why should we? There is not one single good reason to do so.
Renewable energy provides over 30% of the whole energy consumption in Germany. That is the single biggest block sorted by production. Nuclear energy is 3rd place.
Germany exports energy for 3.8 billion and imports for 1.9 billion. Tendency raising...
There is simply no reason as long as there is TWh export going on.

TWh?

Wouldn't more energy independence lessen the threat of cut off from any one source? 
What percentage of gas and oil needs does German import from Russia?

And to be honest, nuclear energy is 3rd because it has been cut, not because renewable has been able to produce so much.  Nuclear energy was sidelined in Germany by the greens as a result of a panic attack after Fukashima.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 08, 2014, 04:42:41 am
even before that.
the problem is, no one wants a nuclear power plant in the neighbourhood and not to mention the waste issue.

TWh my guess is terawatt per hour.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 08, 2014, 07:45:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 07, 2014, 11:13:23 pm
Unfortunately only in russian, but still - an epic dialogue:)


 Ministerial advisers probably not have gone far in development compared to commentators in the Internet  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 08, 2014, 08:33:50 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 08, 2014, 02:27:02 am
Christ, what clowns.

TWh?

Wouldn't more energy independence lessen the threat of cut off from any one source? 
What percentage of gas and oil needs does German import from Russia?

And to be honest, nuclear energy is 3rd because it has been cut, not because renewable has been able to produce so much.  Nuclear energy was sidelined in Germany by the greens as a result of a panic attack after Fukashima.
Where is the connection between Nuclear power you were talking about and Russian oil/gas? You confuse me...
Yea, the mean Green Party. Totally in administration since... well... uhmm... lemme think... not in the last decade, weird.  :rolleyes:
Anyway, moving on...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

From what I've read that facebook post is from the Vize-Minister of Economics or something who apologises for Russia "doing stupid things", aimed at the sanctions against the "West"... He got fired after posting this, it seems :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 08, 2014, 08:51:48 am
Quote from: Molly on August 08, 2014, 08:33:50 am
Where is the connection between Nuclear power you were talking about and Russian oil/gas? You confuse me...
Yea, the mean Green Party. Totally in administration since... well... uhmm... lemme think... not in the last decade, weird.  :rolleyes:
Anyway, moving on...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

From what I've read that facebook post is from the Vize-Minister of Economics or something who apologises for Russia "doing stupid things", aimed at the sanctions against the "West"... He got fired after posting this, it seems :lol:
it has nothing to do with sanctions against the west. In 2014, the government froze for  1-year retirement savings, this year they have extended for another 1 year and thereby breaking a promise. not a big deal tbh
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:58:10 am
Seems this topic transforms into meanwhile in Russia. Guys just interesting what do you think about shelling of civilians by Ukranian troops, what do you think about kidnapping people by Ukranian troops. What do you think about 800000 refugees which went to Russia. And what do you think about more then 400 ukranian troops who were betrayed by their comanders and asked separatists to make humanitarian corridor to save their lifes. Interesting why terrorists helped them. I ask it, because havn't seen reaction on this facts, just blaming Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 08, 2014, 10:01:52 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:58:10 am
on this facts
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:58:10 am
facts
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:58:10 am
facts
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:58:10 am
facts
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:05:05 am
Quote from: Molly on August 08, 2014, 10:01:52 am

You can find all this facts on the OSCE.ORG, or you don't believe them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 08, 2014, 10:13:32 am
I choose the Tovi/Butan route and simply ignore them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 08, 2014, 10:14:34 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:58:10 am
Seems this topic transforms into meanwhile in Russia.

Russia transformed into meanwhile in Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:27:58 am
Again some jokes, and nothing about, Today I saw that 62% of people in Great Britain condemn Israel and think that Israel makes war crime, more then 1000 civilians were killed. In Ukraine 1268 civilians were killed and Great Britain supports Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 08, 2014, 11:28:15 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:27:58 am
Again some jokes, and nothing about, Today I saw that 62% of people in Great Britain condemn Israel and think that Israel makes war crime, more then 1000 civilians were killed. In Ukraine 1268 civilians were killed and Great Britain supports Ukraine.

DonNicko transformed 'Meanwhile Russia in Ukraine' into 'Meanwhile in Israel in Britain in Russia in Ukraine'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 08, 2014, 12:22:41 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:58:10 am
Seems this topic transforms into meanwhile in Russia. Guys just interesting what do you think about shelling of civilians by Ukranian troops, ...
war, war never changes. no party fights fair or holds the fire even if a little girl and her puppy dog crosses the firelines.
it is simply bad luck, be at the wrong time at the wrong place.

Quote
...what do you think about kidnapping people by Ukranian troops. ...
in a conflict zone you can´t trust no one.

Quote
...What do you think about 800000 refugees which went to Russia. ...
their options were to stay and catch a stray bullet or to wait at a safer place until it is over.

Quote
...And what do you think about more then 400 ukranian troops who were betrayed by their comanders and asked separatists to make humanitarian corridor to save their lifes. ...
and their options were to stay in the pocket and to die or to cross the border and to be alive.
what way would you have picked?


Quote
...Interesting why terrorists helped them. I ask it, because havn't seen reaction on this facts, just blaming Russia.
the rebel/terrorist/freedomfighters need some good pr, lately.
in addition this is part of the propaganda war like "these brutes bomb helpless civilians and their puppy dogs but we are on a higher humanitarian level so that we even patch up your wounded enemies."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grumbs on August 08, 2014, 12:23:34 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:27:58 am
Again some jokes, and nothing about, Today I saw that 62% of people in Great Britain condemn Israel and think that Israel makes war crime, more then 1000 civilians were killed. In Ukraine 1268 civilians were killed and Great Britain supports Ukraine.

Isn't Ukraine defending their own country against insurgents. Insurgents that are supported by a very powerful neighbour country? One that has now even shot down a commercial plane? Ukraine are defending against aggression, Israel are attacking an established territory. Lots more depth involved than that but it seems if people were to support someone it would be easier to support Ukraine than Israel
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 08, 2014, 12:22:41 pm
war, war never changes. no party fights fair or holds the fire even if a little girl and her puppy dog crosses the firelines.
it is simply bad luck, be at the wrong time at the wrong place.
Well I can agree if people die on the field, but those shelling was there where no separatists were seen. People die on the busstop, while walking to the work, in a hospital, there wasn't any firelines

Quote
their options were to stay and catch a stray bullet or to wait at a safer place until it is over.
Why they then went to Russia, not to Ukraine?

Quote
and their options were to stay in the pocket and to die or to cross the border and to be alive.
what way would you have picked?
In that situation ofcource I would cross the border. I don't know why they still try to continue that stupid war

Quote
the rebel/terrorist/freedomfighters need some good pr, lately.
in addition this is part of the propaganda war like "these brutes bomb helpless civilians and their puppy dogs but we are on a higher humanitarian level so that we even patch up your wounded enemies."
Yeah, yeah ofcourse, maybe like that

Quote from: Grumbs on August 08, 2014, 12:23:34 pm
Isn't Ukraine defending their own country against insurgents. Insurgents that are supported by a very powerful neighbour country? One that has now even shot down a commercial plane? Ukraine are defending against aggression, Israel are attacking an established territory. Lots more depth involved than that but it seems if people were to support someone it would be easier to support Ukraine than Israel
Insurgents are ukranians, yes they are supported by Russia, about shooting down a commercial plane do you have any proofs? Ukranian army once already shot down commercial plane in 2001 by mistake. What agression, they try to get territory back. The territory where people don't agree with current government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 08, 2014, 01:34:24 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on August 08, 2014, 12:23:34 pm
Insurgents that are supported by a very powerful neighbour country? One that has now even shot down a commercial plane?

If you're talking about russia, there is only stupid people still believing they directly shot the airplane down...
One point of unconventional warfare is to not soil your hands.


Quote from: Mala on August 08, 2014, 12:22:41 pm
war, war never changes. no party fights fair or holds the fire even if a little girl and her puppy dog crosses the firelines.
it is simply bad luck, be at the wrong time at the wrong place.
in a conflict zone you can´t trust no one.
their options were to stay and catch a stray bullet or to wait at a safer place until it is over.
and their options were to stay in the pocket and to die or to cross the border and to be alive.
what way would you have picked?

the rebel/terrorist/freedomfighters need some good pr, lately.
in addition this is part of the propaganda war like "these brutes bomb helpless civilians and their puppy dogs but we are on a higher humanitarian level so that we even patch up your wounded enemies."

You're making very logical points and I applaud your common sense, but DonNicko is more than welcome to show some not-friendly facts: on this thread there has been a lot of holier-than-thou going on, its good to balance the field and remind everyone that both sides are at war, with noone being evil or good.

After being flooded with facts which shows that rebels kills, rebels rape, rebels kidnap, rebels lies... after a time you begin to think that they are brute and the Ukrainian army is the arm of justice. Some will forever think that but they should not feel concerned by objective statements anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 08, 2014, 01:41:57 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
Well I can agree if people die on the field, but those shelling was there where no separatists were seen. People die on the busstop, while walking to the work, in a hospital, there wasn't any firelines
They die because putler and his sheep russians do not want Ukraine to be free and they started armed insurgency to destabilize Ukraine. Shelling and unfortunate deaths are outcomes.
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
Why they then went to Russia, not to Ukraine?
If you get told repetedly, that there is natszsees on one side and heroes on another side and you got serious lack of critical thinking - there is not much choice. Also - don't generalize, not everyone went east, there are refugees on both sides.
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
<...> I don't know why they still try to continue that stupid war.
Because SOME have a thing called INTEGRITY and are actually willing to die for their country, invaded by idiot separatists.
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
<...>The territory where people don't agree with current government.
Old news dude, it was never majority afaik. MAYBE in small locations. In any case - vocal brainwashed minority encouraged, supplied and led by russian agents DID start this bullshit. Now I don't think there are any significant separatist leaders of Ukrainian ascent in the leadership and you still tout bullshit about local populace...

Substract putlers media uproar and rest russian created BS from Ukraine since new year and you would have a VERY different country, which would STILL be semi-friendly to the slav world... Now? Now you have friends in South America and a future overlord in China. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on August 08, 2014, 01:44:20 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
Well I can agree if people die on the field, but those shelling was there where no separatists were seen. People die on the busstop, while walking to the work, in a hospital, there wasn't any firelines
Why they then went to Russia, not to Ukraine?
In that situation ofcource I would cross the border. I don't know why they still try to continue that stupid war
Yeah, yeah ofcourse, maybe like that
Insurgents are ukranians, yes they are supported by Russia, about shooting down a commercial plane do you have any proofs? Ukranian army once already shot down commercial plane in 2001 by mistake. What agression, they try to get territory back. The territory where people don't agree with current government.

Did you give Tovi your password?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 02:03:09 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on August 08, 2014, 01:44:20 pm
Did you give Tovi your password?
What do you mean? I wrote something wrong? I gave facts that OSCE gave and has it on their site.

Kuujis, sometimes I think that you just like to shit. I gave facts and asked your opinion, and again Putin and russian sheeps and so on
Especially for you Kuujis go the the East Ukraine and ask people and you will see majority it is or local groups.

Ukranian TV(not oficial)
Ukranian troops that crossed russian border to save their lifes, now travell by train in Ukraine, they don't know where and when they will be freed, three days they are without water and food. Comander said that they are deserters
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 08, 2014, 02:10:45 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 02:03:09 pm
Kuujis, sometimes I think that you just like to shit.

Well how could you blame Kuujis for that? 'Tis such a relief when it finally happens.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 08, 2014, 02:20:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 02:03:09 pm
What do you mean? I wrote something wrong? I gave facts that OSCE gave and has it on their site.

Kuujis, sometimes I think that you just like to shit. I gave facts and asked your opinion, and again Putin and russian sheeps and so on
Especially for you Kuujis go the the East Ukraine and ask people and you will see majority it is or local groups.

Ukranian TV(not oficial)
Ukranian troops that crossed russian border to save their lifes, now travell by train in Ukraine, they don't know where and when they will be freed, three days they are without water and food. Comander said that they are deserters
(click to show/hide)
Did you mention this OSCE report http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/26518909.html ? :)

And the same OSCE guys talking to the soldiers who crossed the border painted quite a different picture... But lets SKIP this, not some comfortable news aye? http://www.osce.org/ukraine/122446

There was this company doing the actual populace interviews and gouging their opinion before all this BS was started and it is what I said - MINORITY wanted to cause BS and they were encouraged and helped by russia with putlers media brainwashed sheep believing putler with 80% devotion. Next stop - north korea.

And yes, I do like to relieve myself, as Christo pointed out. Is that relevant somehow?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 02:52:07 pm
From OSCE
Quote
The mayor of Velykomykhailivka (165km southeast of Dnepropetrovsk city) told the SMM that Right Sector activists, based in a training camp at a village close to the boundary with the Donetsk region, had been harassing local people. He alleged that some of the activists, sometimes drunk, had specifically fired shots in the air, stolen vehicles at checkpoints manned by them, and had entered houses, and intimidated women. The police, he said, were powerless to act, and the authorities, at a higher level, were doing nothing to stop this behaviour. Similar allegations were made by local inhabitants in mid-July.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 08, 2014, 02:59:39 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


That's pretty weaksauce, considering the other side shot down a civilian airliner.

etc.etc.

Or what is the current russian opinion about that one? UFO's or Obama did it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 03:10:41 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 08, 2014, 02:59:39 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


That's pretty weaksauce, considering the other side shot down a civilian airliner.

etc.etc.

Or what is the current russian opinion about that one? UFO's or Obama did it?
There is no official russian opinion. Because they don't have any direct proof. Only that at time of shooting there were three ukranian system of buks, and ukranian plane were near the Boeing. And ofcourse west has direct proofs that Russia did it, or wait they don't. But Ok, just say that russia did it everyone will believe it without proofs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 08, 2014, 03:22:42 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 03:10:41 pm
There is no official russian opinion. Because they don't have any direct proof. Only that at time of shooting there were three ukranian system of buks, and ukranian plane were near the Boeing. And ofcourse west has direct proofs that Russia did it, or wait they don't. But Ok, just say that russia did it everyone will believe it without proofs
In your native tongue - what is the name for NUMEROUS pictures of separatist controlled BUK system with one missile missing being driven from area of plane destruction to russian territory + announcements (deleted immediately after the true nature of plane was clear) by the very separatist sources about downing another plane of "Ukraine air forces"? I call them "proofs" and given the variance of their sources AND their alignment to one another I find those proofs quite believable.

On the contrary - I find "SU 25 at 10k meters altitude" a lacking theory, which is bordering and outright lie and misdirrection (somewhere along the lines of "the plane was full of corpses alread" theory).

Keeping BUK's near the border of ex-friendly country which is on the brink of invasion seems like a reasonable precaution by Ukraine forces. Don't you think so?

And since we like OSCE a lot:
http://www.osce.org/node/122444
On the two first days of its observation (31 July and 1 August), the OM observed several groups of ten to twelve young men in military-style dress with backpacks going to Ukraine from the Russian Federation and coming from Ukraine. In some instances, some of the young men coming back from Ukraine were visibly lightly wounded and on two occasions the OM observed a flag of the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” on some young men’s clothes.

So a friendly "world slav leader" nation allows free passage for rowing bands to/from (when wounded) military zone? I would call that encouragement of war, not attempts to deescalate crisis, contrary to what putler likes to declare left-and-right. In your native tongue - how would you name this?

P.S. It remains a MYSTERY to me, how can it be, that the separatists managed to show themselves to the OSCE observers given that they are present in 2 (!) border crossings in total...

P.S.S. Meanwhile in russia - "We have our own" says the headline of todays news paper. visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 
You should laugh at the part where the picture is from 2010 Autumn and the loaf of bread on the able is of Lithuanian manufacuters from some agrarian exposition, where putler and medvedev participated that day.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 08, 2014, 04:22:51 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 03:10:41 pm
There is no official russian opinion. Because they don't have any direct proof. Only that at time of shooting there were three ukranian system of buks, and ukranian plane were near the Boeing. And ofcourse west has direct proofs that Russia did it, or wait they don't. But Ok, just say that russia did it everyone will believe it without proofs
Well the separatists got a buk from somewhere. Where did they get it? Cause its 100% certain that the rebels did have a buk and that they shot down that civplane. Cause they admitted owning a buk and shooting down a airplane in socialnetwork, basically minutes before the civilianplane crashed. They even posted pictures of owning a buk on Twitter ffs and later stated that they dont even own one. So they basically admitted everything to the world before they realised what they had just done. Which still creates the question. WHERE DID IT COME FROM? Buks arent built in some guys garage. I kinda agree with you. A direct link to Russia is indeed missing on this one. At first I thought that they had used the ones they claimed from Ukr army bases, but those were considered beond repair broken. Unless they fixed the ones they captured, it could have only been from Russia.

Quote from: Butan on August 08, 2014, 01:34:24 pm
u're making very logical points and I applaud your common sense, but DonNicko is more than welcome to show some not-friendly facts: on this thread there has been a lot of holier-than-thou going on, its good to balance the field and remind everyone that both sides are at war, with noone being evil or good.
You with your utterly retarded "theres 2 sides to a conflict" logic again. Pretty sure Genghis Khan murdered millions of civilians cause they were somehow to blame. Quite sure all those countries Hit ler invaded had it totally coming. Seriuslly man....wtf kinda logic is that? Althou yea, DonNicko is quite alright dude. He wont convince me, but he's cool.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 08, 2014, 05:57:39 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 08, 2014, 08:33:50 am
Where is the connection between Nuclear power you were talking about and Russian oil/gas? You confuse me...
Yea, the mean Green Party. Totally in administration since... well... uhmm... lemme think... not in the last decade, weird.  :rolleyes:
Anyway, moving on...



What is the purpose of the gas and oil imported by Germany from Russia?  Is any of it used to generate electricity or is it all used to fuel vehicles and cook sauerbraten?
It seems obvious to me but I'll point out that any portion of imported fossil fuels used for electricity production that could be replaced by nuclear power would lessen dependence on foreign sources.

I can certainly understand the reluctance to live near a nuclear plant and the waste problem, however the potential for being extorted for energy may change that outlook at some point.

I do admire the steps that Germany has taken in housing to conserve heating and cooling usage.  I wish that the technologies and methods used in the German passivhaus program was more widely practiced and available in the States.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 08, 2014, 05:58:52 pm
Ukraine's regular armed forces are not very loyal, and in the beginning were frankly completely useless. There are probably still lots of problems with deserters and intel is for sure leaking like tap water.

So they resort to using right sector militias, because that's their only option. Not because it's a good solution. I can imagine those boys not being overly civilized.

Ukraine is a boat shot full of leaking holes by Russia. They are desperately trying to stay afloat by any means, while Russia awaits with the big guns just over the horizon, should their mutiny fail.

About the Gas situation, my theory is that Russia wants Ukraine to be gas dependent. Probably lots of inefficient heating and bad house insulation. Compared to Poland:

Ukraine 1180 m³/year per capita
Poland 420 m³/year per capita

More than twice as much gas used per person..

source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_consumption

They should start insulating their houses fast. (Like they do large scale in Poland for some time already)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 08:37:29 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 08, 2014, 05:58:52 pm
Ukraine's regular armed forces are not very loyal, and in the beginning were frankly completely useless. There are probably still lots of problems with deserters and intel is for sure leaking like tap water.

So they resort to using right sector militias, because that's their only option. Not because it's a good solution. I can imagine those boys not being overly civilized.

Ukraine is a boat shot full of leaking holes by Russia. They are desperately trying to stay afloat by any means, while Russia awaits with the big guns just over the horizon, should their mutiny fail.

About the Gas situation, my theory is that Russia wants Ukraine to be gas dependent. Probably lots of inefficient heating and bad house insulation. Compared to Poland:

Ukraine 1180 m³/year per capita
Poland 420 m³/year per capita

More than twice as much gas used per person..

source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_consumption

They should start insulating their houses fast. (Like they do large scale in Poland for some time already)

It's a boat shot by all vested interests, it takes two to tango Thomek and all this Russiaphobia and blaming Russia for Ukraine's situation is complete bollocks.

Ukraine, like many other hotspots in the world is a region with a mixed and diverse population of which speak different languages, follow different religions and political ideologies.. Prior to the "EuroMaidan" protests the elected Ukrainian government was after a loan to bolster its failing economy, the EU offered pennies where as Russia offered an economically stimulating amount,  doing what was best for his country (and arguably himself), Yanukovych took Russia's money.. American NGO's then used sections of the Ukrainian population to react toward this deal violently with protests and rioting, at first the police acted with an immense amount of restraint until the skies were literally raining with molotovs and sections of the rioters were using live ammunition on the police.. That's when things quickly escalated.. American/European NGO's USED far right groups to bring about a Western puppet coup government whom then set the conditions for a Western puppet elected government, (not elected by many East Ukrainians it has to be noted) and only THEN did the West through the IMF and the EU offer Ukraine a substantial amount of economic stimulus..

Ukraine is a victim of geopolitics, Russia's geopolitical interests in protecting its sphere of influence and retaining a buffer between its borders and NATO, and NATO member states interests in ruling the whole fucking world and implementing their new world order..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 08, 2014, 09:10:10 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 08:37:29 pm
It's a boat shot by all vested interests, it takes two to tango Thomek and all this Russiaphobia and blaming Russia for Ukraine's situation is complete bollocks.

Let's see,

1.President Yanukovych a protege of Putin reneges on a long standing government commitment to move Ukraine closer to EU, under Russian pressure.
2.When the Ukrainian populace takes to the street in protest against this and the endemic government corruption Russian intelligence forces support  the Berkut.
3.Russian forces (thinly disguised) invaded and annexed Crimea, a portion of the sovreign country of Ukraine.
4.Russian proxy forces began a classical destabilization program against eastern Ukraine under the time honored guise of protecting ethnic Russians.
5.Russia is providing sophisticated weapons to it's proxy forces in eastern Ukraine.
6.Russia has massed 15-20,000 troops with armor and heavy weapons on Ukraine's eastern border and has threatened invasion.
7.Russia has fired artillery from it's territory into the Ukraine, against Ukrainian forces.  An act of war, as if the invasion of Crimea was not.

If it takes two to tango Russia is doing all the leading with an unwilling partner.  It's obviously a complete load of bollocks to blame Russia for the situation in Ukraine. :rolleyes:

Russiaphobia?  It's plainly commonsense and a matter of survival to have fear of something that has a track record of imposing it's will on it's neighbors by force.
As far as the boat analogy; it's one thing if you and your family want to shoot holes in the family skiff.  It's quite another kettle of fish when your neighbor starts putting holes in it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 09:11:43 pm
I just try to equalize, ok let's start, I think this will be my biggets post here
Quote from: Kuujis on August 08, 2014, 03:22:42 pm
In your native tongue - what is the name for NUMEROUS pictures of separatist controlled BUK system with one missile missing being driven from area of plane destruction to russian territory + announcements (deleted immediately after the true nature of plane was clear) by the very separatist sources about downing another plane of "Ukraine air forces"? I call them "proofs" and given the variance of their sources AND their alignment to one another I find those proofs quite believable.
I have seen numerous pictures of separatist with broken one BUK, about video, that was said that it was Krasnodon near russian border, but that was lie, people on internet found that it was maybe another town but not Krasnodon, there were missing two missiles. Can be that broken one Buk? Yes it can. About announcements, yes he wrote that, then he claimed that he get this info and video from intertnet, he thought that this was another ukranian plane, so he wrote it. He didn't know who shot this plane, and after he knew that it was boeing, deleted his announcements. Not great proofs.
Another version that it was workable BUK and separatists tried to shoot military plane that russian radars showed at the time of crashing of the boeing, this military plane was in one line with commercial plane, so maybe if that BUK shot in that plane but missed and shot boeing. Then why this area were open for flights? And BUK system is not one machine it consists of three. But yes they could shot boeing, but from the earth you cant even see it on the height of 10k km. Without radar system it is almost impossible, but possible)
Another version that ukranian troops shot that plane all interesting facts and transportation of ukranian buks at the date of crash and activisation of working of ukranian buk's radars you can find here, there is english translation
(click to show/hide)

Quote
On the contrary - I find "SU 25 at 10k meters altitude" a lacking theory, which is bordering and outright lie and misdirrection (somewhere along the lines of "the plane was full of corpses alread" theory).
Yes, it can't fly on that height, only reach it for few minutes.

Quote
Keeping BUK's near the border of ex-friendly country which is on the brink of invasion seems like a reasonable precaution by Ukraine forces. Don't you think so?
Yes, seems it is reasonable, then watch the video I gave, and think why they transferred their BUKs to area of crash, then got them back to the base

Quote
And since we like OSCE a lot:
http://www.osce.org/node/122444
On the two first days of its observation (31 July and 1 August), the OM observed several groups of ten to twelve young men in military-style dress with backpacks going to Ukraine from the Russian Federation and coming from Ukraine. In some instances, some of the young men coming back from Ukraine were visibly lightly wounded and on two occasions the OM observed a flag of the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” on some young men’s clothes.
There are a lot of volunteers from Russia, Georgia and other countries, who fight there, there are a lot of people from Russia who fight for Ukranian army and a lot of who fight for rebels. Nobody can stop them.

Quote
So a friendly "world slav leader" nation allows free passage for rowing bands to/from (when wounded) military zone? I would call that encouragement of war, not attempts to deescalate crisis, contrary to what putler likes to declare left-and-right. In your native tongue - how would you name this?

P.S. It remains a MYSTERY to me, how can it be, that the separatists managed to show themselves to the OSCE observers given that they are present in 2 (!) border crossings in total...
I think that Putin don't even know about them. But I say that there are a lot of volunteers who fight for both sides. So they don't care what Putin will think about them.

Quote
P.S.S. Meanwhile in russia - "We have our own" says the headline of todays news paper.
You should laugh at the part where the picture is from 2010 Autumn and the loaf of bread on the able is of Lithuanian manufacuters from some agrarian exposition, where putler and medvedev participated that day.
Yes this is stupid propaganda, our prices will grow now about for 10-20%, but for russians it is common.

Quote from: Tibe on August 08, 2014, 04:22:51 pm
Well the separatists got a buk from somewhere. Where did they get it? Cause its 100% certain that the rebels did have a buk and that they shot down that civplane. Cause they admitted owning a buk and shooting down a airplane in socialnetwork, basically minutes before the civilianplane crashed. They even posted pictures of owning a buk on Twitter ffs and later stated that they dont even own one. So they basically admitted everything to the world before they realised what they had just done. Which still creates the question. WHERE DID IT COME FROM? Buks arent built in some guys garage. I kinda agree with you. A direct link to Russia is indeed missing on this one. At first I thought that they had used the ones they claimed from Ukr army bases, but those were considered beond repair broken. Unless they fixed the ones they captured, it could have only been from Russia.
Well it can be, but can not be. I don't know, can't say exactly. Maybe Russia really gave them this buk, but that was only one part of Buk system, if this buk is not that broken one which rebels captured from ukranian base.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 08, 2014, 09:15:52 pm
Murmillus, like the Russian state narrative, is completely clueless about who started the Maidan protests.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 08, 2014, 09:23:57 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 08:37:29 pm
(click to show/hide)

You got any proof of that? A lot of people, such as yourself, claim that EU and USA were all responsible and shit for Maidan. But if you think about it, theres really nothing. No propaganda, no sending weapons, nothing. I highly doubt a few politicans visits from USA can be considered as any proof at all. Its frankly quite easy to say that mybe the Ukrainains just had enough with being a lapdog for the Eastern bear and decided to break free. Why is it so hard to belive that simple version? Its quite logical and it has happened multiple times before. And new world order? When was the last time NATO annexed anything? In Europe the main weapons it has are basically all ment for defensive purpose. Look at Russia, they got fucking offensive weapons of mass destruction basically aimed at every country they neibhour. Already that should give you a clear clue of who is really evil here. Also dont forget Russia made NATO its enemy, not the other way around. Majority of countries in Eastern-EU, that are in NATO dont even want to be in it, but frankly to ensure their sovergnity while living next to Russia they have noone else to turn to.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 08, 2014, 09:27:44 pm
Putin tightens the screws in Russia:

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-demands-internet-users-show-id-access-public-160535546.html (http://news.yahoo.com/russia-demands-internet-users-show-id-access-public-160535546.html)

Seems like he doesn't want any exchange of communications other that what is officially sanctioned. 

Russian citizens, enjoy your trip in Putin's time machine back to the good old 1960s and 70s.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 09:44:50 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 08, 2014, 09:10:10 pm
Let's see,

1.President Yanukovych a protege of Putin reneges on a long standing government commitment to move Ukraine closer to EU, under Russian pressure.
2.When the Ukrainian populace takes to the street in protest against this and the endemic government corruption Russian intelligence forces support  the Berkut.
3.Russian forces (thinly disguised) invaded and annexed Crimea, a portion of the sovreign country of Ukraine.
4.Russian proxy forces began a classical destabilization program against eastern Ukraine under the time honored guise of protecting ethnic Russians.
5.Russia is providing sophisticated weapons to it's proxy forces in eastern Ukraine.
6.Russia has massed 15-20,000 troops with armor and heavy weapons on Ukraine's eastern border and has threatened invasion.
7.Russia has fired artillery from it's territory into the Ukraine, against Ukrainian forces.  An act of war, as if the invasion of Crimea was not.

If it takes two to tango Russia is doing all the leading with an unwilling partner.  It's obviously a complete load of bollocks to blame Russia for the situation in Ukraine. :rolleyes:

Russiaphobia?  It's plainly commonsense and a matter of survival to have fear of something that has a track record of imposing it's will on it's neighbors by force.
As far as the boat analogy; it's one thing if you and your family want to shoot holes in the family skiff.  It's quite another kettle of fish when your neighbor starts putting holes in it.

Bullshit mate.

Answer time.

1. Trading one foreign influence for another would have not resolved Ukraine's problems.
2. It's a shame that the protest against corruption was not just a protest, it was a full blown violent riot.
3. Russian forces did not annex Crimea, the Crimean population overwhelming voted to be re-incorporated into Russia, Russia already had troops stationed in Crimea as agreed with the last legitimate Ukrainian government.
4. Influenced by what happened in Crimea, revolted by the fact one of the first actions of the coup government was to remove Russian as an official  language status and the fact the protagonists in the coup had strong neo-N azi ties directly and indirectly sections of Eastern Ukrainian society revolted.
5. Many of the rebels weapons were captured from existing weapons stockpiles and from the new weapons stock piles amassed by encircled Ukrainian units the rebels had overwhelmed.
6. Russia is amassing troops and tanks and aeroplanes in response to NATO exercises and escalation in the region and the continuous shelling and rocket fire targeting Russian checkpoints being fired by Ukrainian forces.
7. See point 6.

Many neo- N azi affiliated with the current Ukrainian regime have expressed wishes to commit genocide against Russians, including a former Ukrainian president Yulia Tymoshenko expressing wishes to nuke Russia and slaughter the Russian people. This has further driven divisions amongst the Ukrainians further solidifying the East Ukrainian separatists justification for their actions. Remember, many Ukrainians fought along side the soviet Union against chocolate chip cookie Germany in WW2 and many suffered atrocities at the hands of chocolate chip cookie's first hand, this leaves a bitter impression for many Ukrainians when they find out their new government has chocolate chip cookie's in it.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 09:48:10 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 08, 2014, 09:23:57 pm
You got any proof of that? A lot of people, such as yourself, claim that EU and USA were all responsible and shit for Maidan. But if you think about it, theres really nothing. No propaganda, no sending weapons, nothing. I highly doubt a few politicans visits from USA can be considered as any proof at all. Its frankly quite easy to say that mybe the Ukrainains just had enough with being a lapdog for the Eastern bear and decided to break free. Why is it so hard to belive that simple version? Its quite logical and it has happened multiple times before. And new world order? When was the last time NATO annexed anything? In Europe the main weapons it has are basically all ment for defensive purpose. Look at Russia, they got fucking offensive weapons of mass destruction basically aimed at every country they neibhour. Already that should give you a clear clue of who is really evil here. Also dont forget Russia made NATO its enemy, not the other way around. Majority of countries in Eastern-EU, that are in NATO dont even want to be in it, but frankly to ensure their sovergnity while living next to Russia they have noone else to turn to.

Only half of Ukraine wanted to increase ties with the EU, as stated previously, when a Russian puppet government under Yanukovych wasin power they were offered a pathetic loan by the EU, only after the EU installed their puppet through manipulation of government dissenters, neo N azis and Russiaphobes had the EU and IMF offered Ukraine a substantial amount. That is all the proof you need, that is without all those telephone conversations with Ms Nuland being pissed off with the EU for not doing what the U.S had urged it to do in regards to Ukraine and other information sources which point towards external interference.. Recently American NGO's were caught trying to stir dissent in Cuba, they did it in Cuba in the past, they did it in Ukraine and they're trying to do it in Cuba again.

Now you want to question NATO's aggression by using the word annex? How about using the words REGIME CHANGE, then NATO can be pulled up for that NUMEROUS times in the 21st century, actions which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, potentially millions and in THIS CENTURY ALONE. Russia cannot and has not ever acted or behaved in such a way this century and has only ever acted within its own sphere of influence and not across the entire globe as NATO do.. Is your head in the fucking sand? Too many brainwashed pricks carelessly watch the world sink into the abyss, lubricated by ignorance.

I was right about Libya and Syria and I'm right about Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 08, 2014, 10:07:17 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 09:48:10 pm
Only half of Ukraine wanted to increase ties with the EU, as stated previously, when a Russian puppet government under Yanukovych wasin power they were offered a pathetic loan by the EU, only after the EU installed their puppet through manipulation of government dissenters, neo N azis and Russiaphobes had the EU and IMF offered Ukraine a substantial amount. That is all the proof you need, that is without all those telephone conversations with Ms Nuland being pissed off with the EU for not doing what the U.S had urged it to do in regards to Ukraine and other information sources which point towards external interference.. Recently American NGO's were caught trying to stir dissent in Cuba, they did it in Cuba in the past, they did it in Ukraine and they're trying to do it in Cuba again.

Now you want to question NATO's aggression by using the word annex? How about using the words REGIME CHANGE, then NATO can be pulled up for that NUMEROUS times in the 21st century, actions which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, potentially millions and in THIS CENTURY ALONE. Russia cannot and has not ever acted or behaved in such a way this century and has only ever acted within its own sphere of influence and not across the entire globe as NATO do.. Is your head in the fucking sand? Too many brainwashed pricks carelessly watch the world sink into the abyss, lubricated by ignorance.

I was right about Libya and Syria and I'm right about Ukraine.

HI TOVI.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 08, 2014, 10:07:52 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 09:48:10 pm
.....
Russia cannot and has not ever acted or behaved in such a way this century and has only ever acted within its own sphere of influence and not across the entire globe as NATO do.. Is your head in the fucking sand? Too many brainwashed pricks carelessly watch the world sink into the abyss, lubricated by ignorance.
.....

And how is NATO exactly carelessly sinking a world into abyss? NATO would have shitton less influence everywhere if Russia itself didnt pose itself as a threat. Which it clearly does. And no this isnt Western propaganda since Kremlins politicians have no isses with bluntly stating to the world that they are assholes. This NATO fear is totally idiotic. Its got no background whatsoever. Sure it has ruined some countries, but name some worldpower that hasnt. China, Russia, France, Brittain etc. They all have ruined and broken countries inferior to their own to make their own supreme. NATO is one fucking hell of a lot better choice to be dominated over than China or whatever the fuck Russia would coup up. Give someone else the tools to rule the world and they will definately sink it. Atleast NATO has some regard for human life (compared to the other supreme powers in the world).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:16:44 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 08, 2014, 10:07:52 pm
And how is NATO exactly carelessly sinking a world into abyss? NATO would have shitton less influence everywhere if Russia itself didnt pose itself as a threat. Which it clearly does. And no this isnt Western propaganda since Kremlins politicians have no isses with bluntly stating to the world that they are assholes. This NATO fear is totally idiotic. Its got no background whatsoever. Sure it has ruined some countries, but name some worldpower that hasnt. China, Russia, France, Brittain etc. They all have ruined and broken countries inferior to their own to make their own supreme. NATO is one fucking hell of a lot better choice to be dominated over than China or whatever the fuck Russia would coup up. Give someone else the tools to rule the world and they will definately sink it. Atleast NATO has some regard for human life (compared to the other supreme powers in the world).
Just interresting how Russia showed as a threat in 90's, As I remember Russia were weak, maybe I missed smth. But Nato were continuing their influence to the East
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 10:21:45 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 08, 2014, 10:07:52 pm
And how is NATO exactly carelessly sinking a world into abyss? NATO would have shitton less influence everywhere if Russia itself didnt pose itself as a threat. Which it clearly does. And no this isnt Western propaganda since Kremlins politicians have no isses with bluntly stating to the world that they are assholes. This NATO fear is totally idiotic. Its got no background whatsoever. Sure it has ruined some countries, but name some worldpower that hasnt. China, Russia, France, Brittain etc. They all have ruined and broken countries inferior to their own to make their own supreme. NATO is one fucking hell of a lot better choice to be dominated over than China or whatever the fuck Russia would coup up. Give someone else the tools to rule the world and they will definately sink it. Atleast NATO has some regard for human life (compared to the other supreme powers in the world).

NATO has "ruined some countries"? That's just like Obama saying, "we've tortured some folk", a complete and utter understatement to disguise blatant and overt hypocrisy.

NATO, as an alliance led by the U.S INVADED TWO nations, Afghanistan and Iraq, (look where that's got us, read the headlines lately?), had forced regime change in Libya, (look where that's got us, read the headlines lately?), NATO member states including the U.S, Britain, Turkey and more have funded and armed rebels and jihadi's in Syria with their allies in Saudi-Arabia, (look where that has got us, read the headlines lately?), NATO member state the United States of America frequently conducts drone strikes over Yemen, Pakistan and Sudan, inflicting civilian majority casualties..

THIS IS ALL IN THE PAST 14 YEARS.

Not to mention Serbia and Kosovo in the 90's...

Head in the sand much? NATO's military projection, it's leading state (the U.S)being the only nation in the world to have dropped nuclear weaponry (on civilians too), have invaded, attacked, occupied, funded and armed conflict via proxy more than any other nation in the world in the past 100 years. Russia simply does not compare and cannot compare to the depravity, chaos and blood shed by NATO and NATO state actions.

Head in the sand MUCH?

And you say Russia has nothing to fear? And Russia is the belligerent party here? Pathetic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 08, 2014, 10:33:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:16:44 pm
Just interresting how Russia showed as a threat in 90's, As I remember Russia were weak, maybe I missed smth. But Nato were continuing their influence to the East

You don't get it. Russia wasn't a "threat" in the 90's (neither is it today tbh.). Is it so hard to accept that Russia is not a good friend, and that everybody would rather look towards prosperous, pacifist and functional democracies? NATO didn't push East (or if it did, show me the tanks), it's the "Soviet Empire" that crumbled. If you think people from East Germany to Estonia actually liked being Soviet subjects, you need to take an unbiased 20th century history course, something I'm sure is quite hard to find in Russia, even today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:45:28 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 08, 2014, 10:33:39 pm
You don't get it. Russia wasn't a "threat" in the 90's (neither is it today tbh.). Is it so hard to accept that Russia is not a good friend, and that everybody would rather look towards prosperous, pacifist and functional democracies? NATO didn't push East (or if it did, show me the tanks), it's the "Soviet Empire" that crumbled. If you think people from East Germany to Estonia actually liked being Soviet subjects, you need to take an unbiased 20th century history course, something I'm sure is quite hard to find in Russia, even today.
Tibe said that it was a threat, so I asked him why. Maybe Soviet Empire were a bad friend? Current Russia is 23 years old and if it is still bad friend, then why Latin America so friendly with us China, India, maybe because we went there with tanks? I don't want to talk about Soviet Union, in that case maybe you want to remember Germany in 40's, don't you afraid of them? Or something earlier do you want to remember. That all is in the past, After USSR were broken NATO said that they will not increase their influence on the East, but even when Russia were very weak they continued to do so, making some propoganda. Fear Russian beasts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 11:23:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:45:28 pm
Tibe said that it was a threat, so I asked him why. Maybe Soviet Empire were a bad friend? Current Russia is 23 years old and if it is still bad friend, then why Latin America so friendly with us China, India, maybe because we went there with tanks? I don't want to talk about Soviet Union, in that case maybe you want to remember Germany in 40's, don't you afraid of them? Or something earlier do you want to remember. That all is in the past, After USSR were broken NATO said that they will not increase their influence on the East, but even when Russia were very weak they continued to do so, making some propoganda. Fear Russian beasts.

Anti-Russian propaganda has been never ending, soft propaganda for decades, Russians always villains in this movie or that movie, new articles about Russian corruption as though it never exists anywhere else, and then hard propaganda like the recent newspaper headlines stating that "Putin's Missile" downed the Malaysian airliner.. In the U.K and in many other NATO member state countries, propaganda against Russia is almost an every day and accepted norm. A recent example of this propaganda is the media hype surrounding the Litvinenko inquest, and the media vultures that jump on the bang wagon to show how brutal and murderous Russia is, all while having brushed under the carpet Obama's assassination of an American citizen via a drone strike. How else could NATO escape criticism from breaking its promise to Russia? Relentlessly pushing the world on to the bring of a potentially third and last world war in a last ditched attempt to save Western dominance over global trade through the petro dollar.

The latest round of sanctions was to punish Russia's move away from the Western economic system and towards the formation of an alternate global financial order through BRICS. Russia is for a multi-polar world, where as NATO is for a UNI polar world, one in which what they say or do goes and what any other rival says or does must be opposed and snuffed out or tarnished with outrageous propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 09, 2014, 01:53:34 am
(click to show/hide)
DonNicko, just how many logical and unbiased conclusions can you draw from the facts that:
Please, try to be honest. The rest of the world has already made the only conclusion possible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 09, 2014, 01:57:33 am
@Murmi Yeah yeah, anti-west propaganda exists as well. You just don't speak russian so you don't see how crazy it is.

What makes me choose a side in this conflict is that I see it as system vs system, and the russian one is endlessly more crappy than the western one from my own experience and eyes.

When I was young and hadn't seen much myself, I thought the west did good because we exploited the rest of the world. (and we do)
But that's not the main reason the west excel.

In Poland I got to see remains of communism and russian way of thinking and it's horrendous. Power abuse and corrupted mentalities are the default mode. Huge collective resources are wasted for a little gain by few people. Money are spent in the most unwise ways by institutions.. We had a principal who tried to bankrupt my school, so he could build his own, new school next to it. You should see how inefficiently they build roads.. When I was in Russia, all that mentality seemed to be multiplied x10. It was shocking and sad to see.

Now I got a question for the Russians here:

Russia is a huge country with a well-educated population, reasonable infrastructure and enormous resources. How can it be that people are better off in Poland? A 40m people country savaged by both wwii and communism? And they have nearly no resources or huge industries to speak of, except farming?

Let me answer:
(click to show/hide)

And it has nothing to do with you being russian. Russians are fine, clever, generous and good people in my experience.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:40:36 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 09, 2014, 01:57:33 am
@Murmi Yeah yeah, anti-west propaganda exists as well. You just don't speak russian so you don't see how crazy it is.

What makes me choose a side in this conflict is that I see it as system vs system, and the russian one is endlessly more crappy than the western one from my own experience and eyes.

When I was young and hadn't seen much myself, I thought the west did good because we exploited the rest of the world. (and we do)
But that's not the main reason the west excel.

In Poland I got to see remains of communism and russian way of thinking and it's horrendous. Power abuse and corrupted mentalities are the default mode. Huge collective resources are wasted for a little gain by few people. Money are spent in the most unwise ways by institutions.. We had a principal who tried to bankrupt my school, so he could build his own, new school next to it. You should see how inefficiently they build roads.. When I was in Russia, all that mentality seemed to be multiplied x10. It was shocking and sad to see.

Now I got a question for the Russians here:

Russia is a huge country with a well-educated population, reasonable infrastructure and enormous resources. How can it be that people are better off in Poland? A 40m people country savaged by both wwii and communism? And they have nearly no resources or huge industries to speak of, except farming?

Let me answer:
(click to show/hide)

And it has nothing to do with you being russian. Russians are fine, clever, generous and good people in my experience.

Definitely Thomek, I completely acknowledge the existence of Russian propaganda. I don't think there is a nation state without its own form of propaganda. I don't have any first hand experiences myself, I guess all of my information comes from media sources, mainstream and alternative and then I form my own opinion. My opinions aren't largely formed on emotion as some peoples are, instead my opinions are formed on what appears to be in my view the most rational, logical reasons or explanation of a situation.

What I mean by opinions formed by emotion by the way is for example.If I had a father who loved and served in the army and I loved my father very much, that would give me an emotional interest on the subject of the army and therefore I would more likely forward opinions within that context that were based on emotional rather than form a more objective, rational/logical opinion.

Personally in regards to the Malaysian flight, I believe the separatists shot the plane down. I can't prove it, but I believe its the most likely version of events, based on the twitter account evidence, the successful shooting down of previous Ukrainian military aircraft.. Regardless of my opinion on the shooting down of a civilian airliner, I do not believe the separatists did it deliberately, yet the plane may have deliberately been diverted over a contested warzone in which aircraft were being shot out of the sky already.I don't believe the Russians were capable nor responsible of the diversion of the flight, but those with vested interests whom may have diverted the aircraft to damage separatist opinion and provide a wider military pretext. Now of course such opinions as the latter could be considered "conspiracy theory" territory, but then basing my opinion on the past, such as the lengths the U.S government and other governments would go to ignite a conflict/sway public opinion, then I believe my opinion carries legitimacy.

Opinions aside, the Ukrainian army is shelling civilians. Any amount of excuses could be given for this. The Ukrainian government chose a military over a political solution, and now the civilians reap what the politicians sow, as always.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 09, 2014, 03:48:49 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 08, 2014, 09:44:50 pm
Bullshit mate.

Answer time.

1. Trading one foreign influence for another would have not resolved Ukraine's problems.
2. It's a shame that the protest against corruption was not just a protest, it was a full blown violent riot.
3. Russian forces did not annex Crimea, the Crimean population overwhelming voted to be re-incorporated into Russia, Russia already had troops stationed in Crimea as agreed with the last legitimate Ukrainian government.
4. Influenced by what happened in Crimea, revolted by the fact one of the first actions of the coup government was to remove Russian as an official  language status and the fact the protagonists in the coup had strong neo-N azi ties directly and indirectly sections of Eastern Ukrainian society revolted.
5. Many of the rebels weapons were captured from existing weapons stockpiles and from the new weapons stock piles amassed by encircled Ukrainian units the rebels had overwhelmed.
6. Russia is amassing troops and tanks and aeroplanes in response to NATO exercises and escalation in the region and the continuous shelling and rocket fire targeting Russian checkpoints being fired by Ukrainian forces.
7. See point 6.

Many neo- N azi affiliated with the current Ukrainian regime have expressed wishes to commit genocide against Russians, including a former Ukrainian president Yulia Tymoshenko expressing wishes to nuke Russia and slaughter the Russian people. This has further driven divisions amongst the Ukrainians further solidifying the East Ukrainian separatists justification for their actions. Remember, many Ukrainians fought along side the soviet Union against chocolate chip cookie Germany in WW2 and many suffered atrocities at the hands of chocolate chip cookie's first hand, this leaves a bitter impression for many Ukrainians when they find out their new government has chocolate chip cookie's in it.

Bullshit right back at you pal.

Reality check:

1.Trading a free association with Europe with being dominated by Russia would certainly have improved Ukraine's situation.  Saying otherwise is sophistry.
2.It's a shame the protests were met with Berkut violence.  Violence begets violence.
3.The Russians didn't annex Crimea huh?  No they just forced Ukrainian forces out of their bases at the point of a gun.  Note that was Ukrainian base not Russian ones.  The vote that you mention has zero support as a legitimate referendum outside of Russia.  It was engineered as an excuse for a land grab of another nation's land.  It was as engineered as was Germany's move into Austria in the Anschluss.
4.If eastern parts of Ukraine revolted because of Kiev policies (since wisely revoked) what the hell is Russia doing sticking it's nose in a civil war for?
5.How long do you believe those weapons and more importantly the ammunition captured will have lasted?  And where do the tanks come from.  The Russian Proxies can only revive so many WW2 tanks from the museums.  You are really blowing smoke with that one.
6.Rapid Trident has happened every year since 2011.  The large Russian troops are not a response to that they are in place to intimidate and if their puppets fail, to invade eastern Ukraine.  Other than the canard that neo natzis are running Ukraine the claim that NATO is any threat to Russia is the biggest red herring to be floated by the Kremlin and it's apologists.  supports in Ukraine.

Nothing you have posted has demonstrated that Russia does not have the lion's share of the blame for the tensions and crisis in Ukraine.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:40:36 am


Personally in regards to the Malaysian flight, I believe the separatists shot the plane down. I can't prove it, but I believe its the most likely version of events, based on the twitter account evidence, the successful shooting down of previous Ukrainian military aircraft.. Regardless of my opinion on the shooting down of a civilian airliner, I do not believe the separatists did it deliberately, yet the plane may have deliberately been diverted over a contested warzone in which aircraft were being shot out of the sky already.I don't believe the Russians were capable nor responsible of the diversion of the flight, but those with vested interests whom may have diverted the aircraft to damage separatist opinion and provide a wider military pretext. Now of course such opinions as the latter could be considered "conspiracy theory" territory, but then basing my opinion on the past, such as the lengths the U.S government and other governments would go to ignite a conflict/sway public opinion, then I believe my opinion carries legitimacy.

Opinions aside, the Ukrainian army is shelling civilians. Any amount of excuses could be given for this. The Ukrainian government chose a military over a political solution, and now the civilians reap what the politicians sow, as always.

That is your most egregious assumption yet.  Did you even bother to check how many different commercial flights and companies flew over that route in the days and weeks before the Malaysian flight was shot down?  There were dozens.  The information is freely available.

How do you propose that "they" arranged to have just this particular airplane at that particular time appear on a scheduled flight path and at a scheduled time that any clown with an internet connection could see was scheduled to be there weeks before?  How did they convince the Russian proxy forces to fire on it?  Did they just hope to troll all over the airspace in the hopes that some dumb ass would fire a missile? 

Airline dispatchers chose the flight routes of their flights.  Do you really think that "they" could reach into the airline of a country that just tragically lost another plane months ago, a country that is basically a third world country and presumably is not beholden to the US and induce that country to divert it's plane to risk being shot down to create an incident?

No I don't believe your opinion has any legitimacy in this case.

Finally, the Ukrainians chose a military solution because they saw that there was no diplomatic solution short of complete surrender.  Crimea proved that to them.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 04:01:50 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 09, 2014, 03:48:49 am
Bullshit right back at you pal.

Reality check:

1.Trading a free association with Europe with being dominated by Russia would certainly have improved Ukraine's situation.  Saying otherwise is sophistry.
2.It's a shame the protests were met with Berkut violence.  Violence begets violence.
3.The Russians didn't annex Crimea huh?  No they just forced Ukrainian forces out of their bases at the point of a gun.  Note that was Ukrainian base not Russian ones.  The vote that you mention has zero support as a legitimate referendum outside of Russia.  It was engineered as an excuse for a land grab of another nation's land.  It was as engineered as was Germany's move into Austria in the Anschluss.
4.If eastern parts of Ukraine revolted because of Kiev policies (since wisely revoked) what the hell is Russia doing sticking it's nose in a civil war for?
5.How long do you believe those weapons and more importantly the ammunition captured will have lasted?  And where do the tanks come from.  The Russian Proxies can only revive so many WW2 tanks from the museums.  You are really blowing smoke with that one.
6.Rapid Trident has happened every year since 2011.  The large Russian troops are not a response to that they are in place to intimidate and if their puppets fail, to invade eastern Ukraine.  Other than the canard that neo natzis are running Ukraine the claim that NATO is any threat to Russia is the biggest red herring to be floated by the Kremlin and it's apologists.  supports in Ukraine.

Nothing you have posted has demonstrated that Russia does not have the lion's share of the blame for the tensions and crisis in Ukraine.

Nothing I have posted? Because you're wilfully ignorant and your opinions on the situation are emotionally formed.

Tell me, how's Greece doing in the EU right now? Since you seem to have a deluded idea that the EU is the Ukraine's magic savour as do many Western Ukrainians, when after all the majority of the hard working Ukrainians actually producing goods and generating GDP for Ukraine are Russian speaking East Ukrainians, without them there would be no Ukrainian economy, but look how they've been treated by West Ukrainians and the coup government.

In Crimea the Ukrainian military were forced out by militias and potentially by some undercover Russian troops too, whether you deem the Crimean vote legitimate or not, it's the legitimacy of the peoples will that matters most and they wanted to be with Russia again. You talk about legitimacy like the West has a monopoly on legitimacy, like fuck it does.

What's Russia doing sticking its nose in a civil war? What's the west doing sticking its nose in a civil war? In fact I could count on two hands how many civil wars the West has involved itself in, same can't be said of Russia, and what's more Russia has sided with Russian speaking Ukrainians whom have for generations had strong ties with Russia whom are under threat by Russian hating neo-N azi West Ukrainians.

If Russia are arming the rebels, good. You like talking about legitimacy, well since the West legitimised arming and funding rebel groups Russia can play at that game too, although Russia has far more justification for doing so, Ukraine is on ITS border, and the coup Ukrainian government are shelling civilians, you know that coup government with neo N azis whom expressed wishes to wipe out Russians and Russian speaking Ukrainians? Those same coup government supporting neo N azi's that burned and shot those anti-government protesters in Odessa?

NATO has admittedly stepped up its exercises in the region in terms of both scale and frequency and NATO spokespersons have also voiced support for the Ukrainian coup government, Russia's fears are 100% justified. 100%

Please provide me with more drivel to respond to.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 09, 2014, 04:31:51 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 04:01:50 am
Nothing I have posted? Because you're wilfully ignorant and your opinions on the situation are emotionally formed.

Tell me, how's Greece doing in the EU right now? Since you seem to have a deluded idea that the EU is the Ukraine's magic savour as do many Western Ukrainians, when after all the majority of the hard working Ukrainians actually producing goods and generating GDP for Ukraine are Russian speaking East Ukrainians, without them there would be no Ukrainian economy, but look how they've been treated by West Ukrainians and the coup government.

In Crimea the Ukrainian military were forced out by militias and potentially by some undercover Russian troops too, whether you deem the Crimean vote legitimate or not, it's the legitimacy of the peoples will that matters most and they wanted to be with Russia again. You talk about legitimacy like the West has a monopoly on legitimacy, like fuck it does.

What's Russia doing sticking its nose in a civil war? What's the west doing sticking its nose in a civil war? In fact I could count on two hands how many civil wars the West has involved itself in, same can't be said of Russia, and what's more Russia has sided with Russian speaking Ukrainians whom have for generations had strong ties with Russia whom are under threat by Russian hating neo-N azi West Ukrainians.

If Russia are arming the rebels, good. You like talking about legitimacy, well since the West legitimised arming and funding rebel groups Russia can play at that game too, although Russia has far more justification for doing so, Ukraine is on ITS border, and the coup Ukrainian government are shelling civilians, you know that coup government with neo N azis whom expressed wishes to wipe out Russians and Russian speaking Ukrainians? Those same coup government supporting neo N azi's that burned and shot those anti-government protesters in Odessa?

NATO has admittedly stepped up its exercises in the region in terms of both scale and frequency and NATO spokespersons have also voiced support for the Ukrainian coup government, Russia's fears are 100% justified. 100%

Please provide me with more drivel to respond to.

Wipe your own chin to obtain requested drivel. 

You appear to be a conspiracy theorist, a quite common type, a willing tool, or a dedicated apologist for resurgent Russian nationalism and aggression or perhaps all three rolled into one.  It's quite useless to argue with a man who will not see, even though he is not blind. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 09, 2014, 04:37:42 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:45:28 pm
Tibe said that it was a threat, so I asked him why. Maybe Soviet Empire were a bad friend? Current Russia is 23 years old and if it is still bad friend, then why Latin America so friendly with us China, India, maybe because we went there with tanks? I don't want to talk about Soviet Union, in that case maybe you want to remember Germany in 40's, don't you afraid of them? Or something earlier do you want to remember. That all is in the past, After USSR were broken NATO said that they will not increase their influence on the East, but even when Russia were very weak they continued to do so, making some propoganda. Fear Russian beasts.

NATO didn't push its influence East, the USSR lost it. The USSR also did not violently occupy and generally fuck up (e.g. Ceausescu) any of the other BRICS countries, which are too far away from Russia's sphere of influence to have any concern about Putin's jingoism, except perhaps China. They are simply too far away to be enemies. They also have mutual interests in destroying the burgeoning global village, particularly India and China with populations still decades away from humanistic enlightenment. There is no "fear Russia" propaganda going on in the West (propaganda would be structurally impossible anyway). However, there is an information bubble in Russia and for russophones in general, which includes the paranoiac illusion western countries are somehow "out to get Russia" which isn't based on any actual fact, but serves the official narrative very well.



Murmillus, if NATO was so evil and sneaky and since you uncovered their dirty little secrets one would think they would have made you disappear by now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 05:35:48 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 09, 2014, 04:37:42 am
NATO didn't push its influence East, the USSR lost it. The USSR also did not violently occupy and generally fuck up (e.g. Ceausescu) any of the other BRICS countries, which are too far away from Russia's sphere of influence to have any concern about Putin's jingoism, except perhaps China. They are simply too far away to be enemies. They also have mutual interests in destroying the burgeoning global village, particularly India and China with populations still decades away from humanistic enlightenment. There is no "fear Russia" propaganda going on in the West (propaganda would be structurally impossible anyway). However, there is an information bubble in Russia and for russophones in general, which includes the paranoiac illusion western countries are somehow "out to get Russia" which isn't based on any actual fact, but serves the official narrative very well.
Really Nato didn't push the influence?
January, 1994. At the Bruxelles meeting at the highest levels country leaders of NATO declare again that "door" in NATO remains open for other European countries.
September 28, 1995. Publication "Researches about NATO expansion".
July 8-9, 1997. At the Madrid meeting at the highest levels three partner countries – Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic – receive the offer to begin negotiations on the introduction.
March 12, 1999. Accession to NATO of Hungary, Poland and Czech Republic. Thus, in North Atlantic Treaty Organization 19 members
USA and Europe made a sanctions against Russia when Russia stopped the agression of Georgia also without any investigation, but sanctions were only half of year, before truth came out. What can I say about it? It is political game, not something like honesty.

Quote from: [ptx] on August 09, 2014, 01:53:34 am
(click to show/hide)
DonNicko, just how many logical and unbiased conclusions can you draw from the facts that:
  • A plane was shot down over UKR-rebel warzone
  • Only UKR side had air forces (why would UKR target a plane in this scenario?)
  • Rebels have previously shot down numerous UKR military planes
  • Rebel leaders made announcements directly after the plane was shot down, that they had downed another UKR military plane.
Please, try to be honest. The rest of the world has already made the only conclusion possible.
Really I try to be honest, and I can say that the rest of the west not the world made the only conclusion right after the crash without any investigation, in 2001 Ukr army was training and shot the commercial plane which were flying From Israel by a system of BUK, why they can't do that again? Kuchma, president for that time, said that it happens and didn't admit their guilt. Did you saw the video I gave if not then watch. There are direct facts what Ukr BUKS were doing at the date of crash. Nobody blame Ukraine that that area where many ukr military planes were shot was still open. USA said that they have the indisputable proofs that rebels shot the plane, oh really. How many times Russia asked them to show that proofs? As I said it can be that that plane was shot by rebels, but then it should be like a miracle, because if they even had workable launching system of the BUK, it is too hard to shoot the plane that you even can't see.
And those facts that you wrote are like I don't know, there is only that facts? USA shot the commercial plane in 1988 near Iran, 300 people were dead, George Bush said that it happens on the war, and the didn't excuse. Any sanctions? Ofcourse not. Guantanamo Bay detention camp, what a great democratic camp. Any sanctions? Ofcourse not. Only I can see that the west really don't need direct proofs to blame Russia. USA supported rebels in Syria. Any sanctions? Ofcourse not. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like political game, not that the West wants to save the Ukraine.

Quote from: Thomek on August 09, 2014, 01:57:33 am
Russia is a huge country with a well-educated population, reasonable infrastructure and enormous resources. How can it be that people are better off in Poland? A 40m people country savaged by both wwii and communism? And they have nearly no resources or huge industries to speak of, except farming?
Just because we don't have any workable system yet. Because billions and billions of dollars were sent to the west in 90's, why people in Poland are better? What is your wages, just interesting. But maybe those sanctions will help to make our industry better)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 06:16:56 am
I wonder what reason countries like Hungary, Poland or the Czech Republic could possibly have to distance themselves from Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Truly only perfidious western propaganda and NATO aggression could've turned them away from the love and gratitude they felt for the russian people.

What really boggles my mind is that you feel your country should have any sort of say in their decisions. Because you occupied and imposed your fucktardedly incompetent systems on them for decades, supported only by force and totalitarian control of society? They're not in your "sphere". They're their own independent, sovereign countries. Get over it. The reason they joined NATO and the EU after it is clear as day. Because it benefited them, because it was an asset, because it made their people more prosperous in a hundred different ways.They weren't conquered, or coerced into it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 07:30:44 am
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 06:16:56 am
I wonder what reason countries like Hungary, Poland or the Czech Republic could possibly have to distance themselves from Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Truly only perfidious western propaganda and NATO aggression could've turned them away from the love and gratitude they felt for the russian people.

What really boggles my mind is that you feel your country should have any sort of say in their decisions. Because you occupied and imposed your fucktardedly incompetent systems on them for decades, supported only by force and totalitarian control of society? They're not in your "sphere". They're their own independent, sovereign countries. Get over it. The reason they joined NATO and the EU after it is clear as day. Because it benefited them, because it was an asset, because it made their people more prosperous in a hundred different ways.They weren't conquered, or coerced into it.
Oberyn, read my previous posts, you still talk about soviet union, OMG you still think that new Russia is like soviet union. And then you say that there is now brainwash and propoganda against Russia on the West? Just how people on that topic act against Russian Federation shows how the propoganda works. A lot of people just like to shittalk about Russia really. That what I see on this topic. Soviet Union has gone stop talk about it, or you still butthurt. Nato doesn't make countries prosperous, it is military organization. Or maybe you can tell how it make prosperous, maybe I missed smth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 07:34:25 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 04:01:50 am
Nothing I have posted? Because you're wilfully ignorant and your opinions on the situation are emotionally formed.

Tell me, how's Greece doing in the EU right now? Since you seem to have a deluded idea that the EU is the Ukraine's magic savour as do many Western Ukrainians, when after all the majority of the hard working Ukrainians actually producing goods and generating GDP for Ukraine are Russian speaking East Ukrainians, without them there would be no Ukrainian economy, but look how they've been treated by West Ukrainians and the coup government.

wtf have you been smoking dude? At first I figured that I somewhat knew wtf you are talking about but it gets kinda wierd now. Your opinions arent emotionally formed? Than wtf are they formed on? Cause they arent based on facts and I can tell you that right off the bat. It sounds like your typical NATO world domination, Western propaganda to blame for all terror in the world, Russia totally misunderstood harmless country that was never to blame for everything kind of view you got going here. Which is the true sign of someone brainwashed. Dont get me wrong, you dont have to be brainwashed not to like the West and NATO, but your worldview is kinda fucked up wrong. Stating shit like westerners hate russians based on propaganda and that Russia is a harmless little butterfly is so fucking far from the truth and clearly shows you havent been around the block at all. I admit, my reasons are a bit emotional, but I got pretty solid background for it. Way to accuse me of being buried in the sand while you are still bluntly walking it the dark. GG
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 07:43:06 am
You don't think Russia's history (yes including while it was the leading cultural, military and political force of the Soviet Union) with these countries might perhaps explain why they joined a military alliance that was designed literally as a counter balance to it? The SU is completely relevant, especially when your current dictator for life has such a hard-on for it and attempts to hail back to it's days of "glory" constantly. Why even worry about countries that were under the SU "sphere" but Russia shouldn't give a fuck about otherwise? They're not part of your Federation and never were.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 07:52:44 am
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 07:43:06 am
You don't think Russia's history (yes including while it was the leading cultural, military and political force of the Soviet Union) with these countries might perhaps explain why they joined a military alliance that was designed literally as a counter balance to it? The SU is completely relevant, especially when your current dictator for life has such a hard-on for it and attempts to hail back to it's days of "glory" constantly. Why even worry about countries that were under the SU "sphere" but Russia shouldn't give a fuck about otherwise? They're not part of your Federation and never were.
Ok Oberyn, there wasn't any need to join Nato, Russia were weak and didn't pretend to rule those counties, why they joined then? I don't know maybe USA gave them some cookies for that. And those countries got invited to join. Why not? Let's do it. It was easy for Nato to join offended countries, like Crimea joined Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 09, 2014, 08:57:12 am
With Murmi around, there is no more need for Tovi or Butan really. He's more amusing with his factual wrong comparisons :D

And Nicko... really? SU irrelevant for the relation between FORMER-SU STATES. Lay off the vodka for a while, buddy. Not serving you well here. :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on August 09, 2014, 09:15:32 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:45:28 pm
Tibe said that it was a threat, so I asked him why. Maybe Soviet Empire were a bad friend? Current Russia is 23 years old and if it is still bad friend, then why Latin America so friendly with us China, India, maybe because we went there with tanks? I don't want to talk about Soviet Union, in that case maybe you want to remember Germany in 40's, don't you afraid of them? Or something earlier do you want to remember. That all is in the past,

That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 09, 2014, 09:39:09 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 07:52:44 am
Ok Oberyn, there wasn't any need to join Nato, Russia were weak and didn't pretend to rule those counties, why they joined then? I don't know maybe USA gave them some cookies for that. And those countries got invited to join. Why not? Let's do it. It was easy for Nato to join offended countries, like Crimea joined Russia.
The Eastern European countries that joined NATO, did so because RF continued to intimidate them after the collapse of SU - unsigned border treaties, hostile rhetoric, low-intensity informational war, using economic means to influence, etc. Also, once you've been occupied by a neighboring state, it is merely logical to try and safeguard yourself against it happening again.

Also, how are the decisions of it's neighboring countries any business of RF?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 09:56:53 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 08, 2014, 10:45:28 pm
Tibe said that it was a threat, so I asked him why. Maybe Soviet Empire were a bad friend? Current Russia is 23 years old and if it is still bad friend, then why Latin America so friendly with us China, India, maybe because we went there with tanks? I don't want to talk about Soviet Union, in that case maybe you want to remember Germany in 40's, don't you afraid of them? Or something earlier do you want to remember. That all is in the past, After USSR were broken NATO said that they will not increase their influence on the East, but even when Russia were very weak they continued to do so, making some propoganda. Fear Russian beasts.

Latin America, China and India are so nice to you because you are good buisnesspartners, IF you want to be good buisnesspartners and you dont really have any bad history with them. So there can be nothing but good with them. But for ex-soviet nations and Western nations, negotiating anything with Russian politicians is very hard. I dunno why but they act like complete assholes on the negotiationtable when discussing matters with EUs. I dunno if its related to the fact that they are still bitter about Soviet Union or that they just hate and dont trust the West so much, that they just cant use nice words and even pretend to be nice. And idolizing Soviet Union is bad. Especially when half of the Russian goverment still weeps of its collapse. To many countries Soviet Union was as bad as Na zi Germany during WW2, during the Cold war the SU was considered a "prison for nations". SU basically consisted of shitton of countries and people that never wanted to be under Kremlins thumb and which the Empire clearly could not sustain. And Russia is a threat, as clearly these recent events have proven. Russia is using its minorites that live in foreign countries as tools to annex itself more lands. Putin pretty much said it himself with words like "if russian lives are in danger, we will invade you".

That means they can pretty much fabricate whatever the hell random shit up and invade. Thats why countries like the Baltics for instance joined NATO. Eversince they gained indepencence Russia has been up their assholes pretty much always nonstop. Claiming that their minorities are being discriminated while it is clearly not and claiming that they are all fascists via official reports, that also being utterly false. Official reports that they have also violated major human rights, which is also utterly fake. All these attemts to make the russian public hate them? For what gain really?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 09, 2014, 10:11:37 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on August 09, 2014, 09:15:32 am
I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Oh I'm not sure about that. All that "GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR" bullshit, you know?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 10:11:41 am
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2014, 08:57:12 am
And Nicko... really? SU irrelevant for the relation between FORMER-SU STATES. Lay off the vodka for a while, buddy. Not serving you well here. :wink:
I have never drunk a vodka molly, and never smoked anything, and all my friends do the same.

Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on August 09, 2014, 09:15:32 am
That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.
What about our history? My family was the richest one in Russian Empire my grand grand pa was merchant of the first guild, we supported imperator's house and russian army with horses. When SU came my family lost all of this, some of us were sent to Syberia. What should I know? That Stalin killed a lot of people, that he was coward? That there were a lot of crimes, well I know a lot of this, and we study it in the schools, and it is politically useless to talk about Russia with talking about SU. It is like talking about your country always reminding what you have done in the past.

Quote from: [ptx] on August 09, 2014, 09:39:09 am
The Eastern European countries that joined NATO, did so because RF continued to intimidate them after the collapse of SU - unsigned border treaties, hostile rhetoric, low-intensity informational war, using economic means to influence, etc. Also, once you've been occupied by a neighboring state, it is merely logical to try and safeguard yourself against it happening again.

Also, how are the decisions of it's neighboring countries any business of RF?
Maybe, never heard about this on the TV. No matter joined and joined. I just think why people refuse that Nato increase their influence to the East. It just a fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 09, 2014, 10:13:44 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 10:11:41 am
I have never drunk a vodka molly, and never smoked anything, and all my friends do the same.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 10:24:23 am
Naked irredentism
Quote from: [ptx] on August 09, 2014, 09:39:09 am
The Eastern European countries that joined NATO, did so because RF continued to intimidate them after the collapse of SU - unsigned border treaties, hostile rhetoric, low-intensity informational war, using economic means to influence, etc. Also, once you've been occupied by a neighboring state, it is merely logical to try and safeguard yourself against it happening again.

Also, how are the decisions of it's neighboring countries any business of RF?

It's because despite the "SU is gone, we are totally brand new Russia with no attachment whatsoever to that past" rhetoric, the RF still seems to treat a lot of these countries like rebellious, unruly vassals that need to be brought to heel, or more charitably as still being in their sphere of influence. The blatant pro-SU nostalgia encouraged wholeheartedly by Putin and co in their propaganda is also completely irrelevant I suppose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:01:25 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 06:16:56 am
I wonder what reason countries like Hungary, Poland or the Czech Republic could possibly have to distance themselves from Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Truly only perfidious western propaganda and NATO aggression could've turned them away from the love and gratitude they felt for the russian people.

What really boggles my mind is that you feel your country should have any sort of say in their decisions. Because you occupied and imposed your fucktardedly incompetent systems on them for decades, supported only by force and totalitarian control of society? They're not in your "sphere". They're their own independent, sovereign countries. Get over it. The reason they joined NATO and the EU after it is clear as day. Because it benefited them, because it was an asset, because it made their people more prosperous in a hundred different ways.They weren't conquered, or coerced into it.

They traded one master for another, that is all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:03:27 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 07:34:25 am
wtf have you been smoking dude? At first I figured that I somewhat knew wtf you are talking about but it gets kinda wierd now. Your opinions arent emotionally formed? Than wtf are they formed on? Cause they arent based on facts and I can tell you that right off the bat. It sounds like your typical NATO world domination, Western propaganda to blame for all terror in the world, Russia totally misunderstood harmless country that was never to blame for everything kind of view you got going here. Which is the true sign of someone brainwashed. Dont get me wrong, you dont have to be brainwashed not to like the West and NATO, but your worldview is kinda fucked up wrong. Stating shit like westerners hate russians based on propaganda and that Russia is a harmless little butterfly is so fucking far from the truth and clearly shows you havent been around the block at all. I admit, my reasons are a bit emotional, but I got pretty solid background for it. Way to accuse me of being buried in the sand while you are still bluntly walking it the dark. GG

That, and your and others posters here replies which only seek to vilify Russia and even drag up the Soviet Union to dish out some dirt is all the evidence I'll need that the propaganda against Russia has worked. You call me brainwashed but I can see who the real brainwashed idiots are.

What NATO HAS done it HAS DONE. This is not a fucking fallacy, it's a fucking reality, and yet I do have emotionally formed opinions, when defending my opinions and opposing the opinions of people so fucking brainwashed they might as well have a world view with their head up their arses. I can bring up multiple instances of military and political aggression from NATO THIS CENTURY (NOT THE PAST), and you couldn't even do the same with Russia, instead you'd probably drag up that old USSR soviet union chestnut which is NO LONGER RELEVANT.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:07:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 10:11:41 am
Maybe, never heard about this on the TV. No matter joined and joined. I just think why people refuse that Nato increase their influence to the East. It just a fact.
Nato didn't "increase their influence", but Nato's influence increased. There's a difference. Countries that had been conquered by the SU didn't want history to repeat itself, so THEY went to Nato, not the other way around.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:01:25 pm
They traded one master for another, that is all.

Comparing EU to SU/Russia... rofl
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:07:22 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2014, 08:57:12 am
With Murmi around, there is no more need for Tovi or Butan really. He's more amusing with his factual wrong comparisons :D

And Nicko... really? SU irrelevant for the relation between FORMER-SU STATES. Lay off the vodka for a while, buddy. Not serving you well here. :wink:

Factually wrong? Am I FACTUALLY WRONG about NATO's actions and Russia's reasons for its REACTIONS? Brainwashed much? What is this thread full of? TV Brainwashed zombies that's what.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: MaHuD on August 09, 2014, 01:09:35 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on August 09, 2014, 09:15:32 am
That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.
Germany takes that a bit over the top. Forbidding everything, being scared to hell of a variety of symbols, gore, details etc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:09:46 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 10:24:23 am
Naked irredentism
It's because despite the "SU is gone, we are totally brand new Russia with no attachment whatsoever to that past" rhetoric, the RF still seems to treat a lot of these countries like rebellious, unruly vassals that need to be brought to heel, or more charitably as still being in their sphere of influence. The blatant pro-SU nostalgia encouraged wholeheartedly by Putin and co in their propaganda is also completely irrelevant I suppose.

The Soviet Union was one formed on political ideology, as was NATO. NATO was used throughout the 20th century to enforce what it called "democracy" on communist states. It largely failed and millions of people had to pay the price for NATO's aggression. Come the 21st century and there is no longer a Soviet Union, no longer a political excuse for NATO to continue its vast, bloody military adventurism, but NATO continues business as usual, and won't stop until there is no sovereign state that is not strung up like a puppet by the West.

And no this statement is not bullshit and devoid of fact, its a fucking reality. Just go and google wars of the 20th and 21st century and maybe your rose tinted glasses of the West will crack a little, but I'm not confident, you're already too brainwashed to see beyond your ass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:17:08 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on August 09, 2014, 09:15:32 am
That is a grave error. We germans often get sick about our own talk of guilt in WWI and II. But we still do talk about it and at least most people acknowledge the insane errors and guilt our ancestors committed (There are of course always some fucktards thinking different, but they are a clear minority). I think it would help Russia a lot to talk more openly and often about their history.

Other than the crime aspect it is politically totally senseless to talk about Russia without talking about SU. It is simply impossible in fact.

Regardless of the political ideology that governs Russia at any given time that distracts people from the true ambitions of Russia, Russia has strong geopolitical national interests that revolve around its own borders.

Where as NATO's actions to secure its geopolitical ambitions and America's national interests are projected globally.

If you guys actually want an unbiased objective view on the collapse of the Soviet Union and the creation of the Russian federation and its geopolitical ambitions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL_09mazZs8&list=UUwnKziETDbHJtx78nIkfYug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMv9EvthOrQ

The second video explains Russia's modern geopolitical and national interests well. Watch it, if you're not already too brainwashed to disregard an alternate point of view out of hand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 01:26:49 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:03:27 pm
That, and your and others posters here replies which only seek to vilify Russia and even drag up the Soviet Union to dish out some dirt is all the evidence I'll need that the propaganda against Russia has worked. You call me brainwashed but I can see who the real brainwashed idiots are.

And why do you think we vilify them so much? Because we were brainwashed? Murmi quit being a cunt. Every country has its own reasons for vilifying Russia and they are utterly based on the countries own experience, NOT some brainwashed propaganda. Atleast here in Eastern-EU it is. Im quite sure yea, its propaganda that makes us think that NATO isnt as nice as they claim. But Russia being bad....no...thats is definately not a publicopinion that has been built uppon propaganda, but rather on everyones personal experience. No offence man, but I think even pro-russians would giggle at your retardoviews.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 01:27:53 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:09:46 pm
It largely failed and millions of people had to pay the price for NATO's aggression.

 :lol:

"Strong geopolitical and national interests" on it's borders. i.e: still believe that the countries on it's border are titular vassals and acts accordingly. It's also the EU's border, but obviously only because of "NATO aggression" that imposed democracy on those poor countries that never asked for it, right? I'm sure they look back fondly on Russian domination, and were totally coerced into NATO because of american greed for global power. Not like they had ANY reasons whatsoever to fear Russia, the puppy-eyed martyr that it is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:29:53 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 01:26:49 pm
And why do you think we vilify them so much? Because we were brainwashed? Murmi quit being a cunt. Every country has its own reasons for vilifying Russia and they are utterly based on the countries own experience, NOT some brainwashed propaganda. Atleast here in Eastern-EU it is. Im quite sure yea, its propaganda that makes us think that NATO isnt as nice as they claim. But Russia being bad....no...thats is definately not a publicopinion that has been built uppon propaganda, but rather on everyones personal experience. No offence man, but I think even pro-russians would giggle at your retardoviews.

I agree, every country has its reasons for vilifying Russia, as Russia has of the West. It in the past was invaded by Britain, France, Germany, anyone can go digging to excuses, we all need to start forming conclusions based on this new century where every nation had a chance to change the status quo, but no this was not even considered by most and especially NATO. Therefore back into the cold war we go.. My views are not retarded, I'm not hunkered down in my own national ideology to hate and oppose Russia like most of you yuppies are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:30:58 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 01:27:53 pm
:lol:

"Strong geopolitical and national interests" on it's borders. i.e: still believe that the countries on it's border are titular vassals and acts accordingly. It's also the EU's border, but obviously only because of "NATO aggression" that imposed democracy on those poor countries that never asked for it, right? I'm sure they look back fondly on Russian domination, and were totally coerced into NATO because of american greed for global power.

Since the collapse of the SU the EU has grown, the EU has geopolitically been behaving as the SU did, these actions stink of hypocrisy and you support them. What a wet sop.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 01:32:31 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:30:58 pm
the EU has geopolitically been behaving as the SU did

Ok now I know you're just living in a parrallel universe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:33:54 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 01:32:31 pm
Ok now I know you're just living in a parrallel universe.

I might as well be, the universe that exists, while you guys can continue to live in your nationalistic, fear mongered irrational hypocritical brainwashed state.

Watch the links I've provided and try to disprove them and my world view, go on? Or are you too retarded to be able to watch a video hosting an alternate view?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 01:36:10 pm
Let me know when the EU military iron fist (:lol:) starts sending tanks and troops to crush protests and dissent, controlling all internal media. I can't wait for brit news to start uniformly praising the EU as the shining path towards the future, lest they provoke the totalitarian germans to retaliation.
Seriously, that you'd even compare the EU to SU shows who the brainwashed retard is. You're either plain ignorant of recent and present history or you're willfully idiotic. I'm going to guess a dash of both.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:37:48 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 01:36:10 pm
Let me know when the EU military iron fist (:lol:) starts sending tanks and troops to crush protests and dissent, controlling all internal media. I can't wait for brit news to start uniformly praising the EU as the shining path towards the future, lest they provoke the totalitarian germans to retaliation.
Seriously, that you'd even compare the EU to SU shows who the brainwashed retard is.

Shall we start with the EU's latest ally, Ukraine, shelling its own civilians. Each states mainstream media is controlled by corporations many if not all which hold close ties to their respective government and report favourably. Also, please tell me when the Russian federation used tanks on its own population.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:40:14 pm
HAHAHAHAHHA this thread is fucking GOLD. Who's the biggest retard?! Tovi has a serious contender...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:42:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:40:14 pm
HAHAHAHAHHA this thread is fucking GOLD. Who's the biggest retard?! Tovi has a serious contender...

Yeah, and I'm sure all of the N azi's in Germany thought the same when sending the Jews to the camps.. Big hug everyone, have a happy clap, we're all united in our nationalist views so we don't need to employ any amount of sense or thought based on rational based thinking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:43:46 pm
No, seriously, though, thanks Murmillus - I laughed out loud while reading your posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:46:03 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:43:46 pm
No, seriously, though, thanks Murmillus - I laughed out loud while reading your posts.

You can laugh all you like, when idiots laugh and pat themselves on the back, I'm not phased.. Consensus is usually held by idiots, how else do we as humans continue to fail to find real solutions to problems in the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 09, 2014, 01:47:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:40:14 pm
HAHAHAHAHHA this thread is fucking GOLD. Who's the biggest retard?! Tovi has a serious contender...
Hard to tell: looks like a head-to-head race between Tovi and Murmi with Butan certainly lurking on a secure 3rd place.
Looks like the race is continuing tho :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:48:49 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2014, 01:47:25 pm
Hard to tell: looks like a head-to-head race between Tovi and Murmi with Butan certainly lurking on a secure 3rd place.
Looks like the race is continuing tho :D
Oh yes, indeed, I think we might see Murmillus catch up to Tovi.... hard to say as of yet, but it's edge-of-your-seat stuff, they're so evenly matched.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:50:09 pm
Ad-hominem, the last argument of the ignorant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:52:47 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:50:09 pm
Ad-hominem, the last argument of the ignorant.
Ah, finally! Nobody's been retarded enough to misuse "ad hominem" in a while, I get to pull this out:

--------------------------------------------------------
Ad hominem fallacy quick chart
--------------------------------------------------------
NOT AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong
- You're stupid
- You're stupid because you're wrong
--------------------------------------------------------
AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong because you're stupid
--------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:55:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:52:47 pm
Ah, finally! Nobody's been retarded enough to misuse "ad hominem" in a while, I get to pull this out:

--------------------------------------------------------
Ad hominem fallacy quick chart
--------------------------------------------------------
NOT AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong
- You're stupid
- You're stupid because you're wrong
--------------------------------------------------------
AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong because you're stupid
--------------------------------------------------------

Yes I have used ad hominem to portray my frustrations with the opposing opinions in this thread, yet I have rarely if ever based an entire post on an ad hominem attack and I have not changed the subject matter of the thread into an ad hominem diatribe that yourself and molly have been doing.

You moronic prick. (Note this post isn't just about me calling you a moronic prick.)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:57:44 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:55:34 pm
Yes I have used ad hominem to portray my frustrations with the opposing opinions in this thread, yet I have rarely if ever based an entire post on an ad hominem attack and I have not changed the subject matter of the thread into an ad hominem diatribe that yourself and molly have been doing.

You moronic prick. (Note this post isn't just about me calling you a moronic prick.)
I can't decide whether to laugh or to cry. Did you just manage to completely and utterly not understand my post and the chart? Was the chart too long? Too difficult to comprehend?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:58:45 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:57:44 pm
I can't decide whether to laugh or to cry. Did you just manage to completely and utterly not understand my post and the chart? Was the chart too long? Too difficult to comprehend?

You tried to make me out to be a hypocrite, I put things into context.  Prick.  (Add that to your list).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:59:40 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 01:58:45 pm
You tried to make me out to be a hypocrite, I put things into context.  Prick.  (Add that to your list).
wat


wat
watttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

No, seriously......

Do you even English?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:01:57 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 01:59:40 pm
wat


wat
watttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

No, seriously......

Do you even English?

You tried to point out my hypocrisy by copy/pasting my ad-hominem statements and phrases from previous posts and have accused me of not knowing the meaning of the word. Ad hominem is relevant to all personal attacks, whether they are swear words or a diatribe attacking the persons character.

You have turned this thread into an ad-hominem attack against my character, it's all the evidence I'll need in defining you as an idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:03:42 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:01:57 pm
You tried to point out my hypocrisy by copy/pasting my ad-hominem statements and phrases from previous posts and have accused me of not knowing the meaning of the word. Ad hominem is relevant to all personal attacks, whether they are swear words or a diatribe attacking the persons character.
Oh my fucking god, you really ARE living in a different reality. So far from this reality that I can't even understand how you're arriving at these conclusions
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:05:08 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:03:42 pm
Oh my fucking god, you really ARE living in a different reality. So far from this reality that I can't even understand how you're arriving at these conclusions

Your own words and posts Xant. Again I derive my evidence from the past. You derive yours from an unrelenting stubborn ego.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:06:48 pm
I've got to hand it to you, you've just overtaken Tovi in the retard race. I don't think even Tovi would've managed to so completely misunderstand every single thing - I guess the difference between 70 and 50 IQ is pretty big after all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:08:39 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:06:48 pm
I've got to hand it to you, you've just overtaken Tovi in the retard race. I don't think even Tovi would've managed to so completely misunderstand every single thing - I guess the difference between 70 and 50 IQ is pretty big after all.

You've passed the finish line, and won the ad hominem race! Pat yourself on the back, on another note I will now refrain from posting in response to you alone Xant, you have "won", but I'll never agree with you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: MaHuD on August 09, 2014, 02:08:53 pm
If it makes you sleep better Xant, we can all just agree with you.
There is no need to go into personal insults everytime you feel that people do not understand you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:09:28 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:08:39 pm
You've passed the finish line, and won the ad hominem race! Pat yourself on the back, on another note I will now refrain from posting in response to you alone Xant, you have "won", but I'll never agree with you.
Of course I've won, that much goes without saying. You not agreeing with me is great; I'd be really worried if you did.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:09:49 pm
Quote from: MaHuD on August 09, 2014, 02:08:53 pm
If it makes you sleep better Xant, we can all just agree with you.
There is no need to go into personal insults everytime you feel that people do not understand you.

Ad hominem is the last tactic used by those who've run out of legitimate argument but can't let go of the argument for fear of admitting defeat and/or being wrong.

"Abusive[edit]

Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments. Equating someone's character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy. Mere verbal abuse in the absence of an argument, however, is not ad hominem nor any kind of logical fallacy.[8]

Ad hominem abuse is not to be confused with slander or libel, which employ falsehoods and are not necessarily leveled to undermine otherwise sound stands with character attacks.
"

Source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Wikipedia my friend.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:10:18 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:09:49 pm
Ad hominem is the last tactic used by those who've run out of legitimate argument but can't let go of the argument for fear of admitting defeat and/or being wrong.
Let's try it one more time, repetition is the mother of learning


--------------------------------------------------------
Ad hominem fallacy quick chart
--------------------------------------------------------
NOT AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong
- You're stupid
- You're stupid because you're wrong
--------------------------------------------------------
AD HOMINEM
- You're wrong because you're stupid
--------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: MaHuD on August 09, 2014, 02:11:41 pm
To be honest if I have never seen this Ad Hominem bullshit anywhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:12:58 pm
That's great, Mahud, very interesting indeed. I'm sure we're all waiting with bated breath to hear what else you've never seen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:14:46 pm
If you ever take a logic or argumentation class you usually learn about a whole bunch of different, commonly used fallacies. Ad Hominem is like, a classic go-to for the internet. Both in use, and falsely accusing people of using it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 02:15:38 pm
Wtf have you bastards done to this thread?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:16:25 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 02:15:38 pm
Wtf have you bastards done to this thread?

Xants fault, and partially mine too.. I took the bait.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:16:37 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:14:46 pm
If you ever take a logic or argumentation class you usually learn about a whole bunch of different, commonly used fallacies. Ad Hominem is like, a classic go-to for the internet. Both in use, and falsely accusing people of using it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Rational wiki has a better list and better explanations:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:19:04 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:14:46 pm
If you ever take a logic or argumentation class you usually learn about a whole bunch of different, commonly used fallacies. Ad Hominem is like, a classic go-to for the internet. Both in use, and falsely accusing people of using it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

So, comparing me to someone called Tovi, whom I do not know but judging by the nature of the posts the comparisons are derogatory and therefore one can conclude from the derogatory comparison the tactic of ad-hominem has been applied.

Stick that in your pipe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: MaHuD on August 09, 2014, 02:19:34 pm
Sleep well Xant!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:20:33 pm
Also, Murmillus managed to own himself in his edited post:

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:09:49 pm
Ad hominem is the last tactic used by those who've run out of legitimate argument but can't let go of the argument for fear of admitting defeat and/or being wrong.

"Abusive[edit]

Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments. Equating someone's character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy. Mere verbal abuse in the absence of an argument, however, is not ad hominem nor any kind of logical fallacy.[8]

Ad hominem abuse is not to be confused with slander or libel, which employ falsehoods and are not necessarily leveled to undermine otherwise sound stands with character attacks.
"

Source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Wikipedia my friend.

He quoted four sentences, and wasn't even able to comprehend what those four sentences said -- one of them completely fucks up his whole "omg adhominem" argument. Hint: ad hominem is A LOGICAL fallacy, it has to do with logic, it doesn't govern insults.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:22:22 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:20:33 pm
Also, Murmillus managed to own himself in his edited post:

He quoted four sentences, and wasn't even able to comprehend what those four sentences said -- one of them completely fucks up his whole "omg adhominem" argument. Hint: ad hominem is A LOGICAL fallacy, it has to do with logic, it doesn't govern insults.

And comparing me to someone called Tovi is a logical fallacy, I don't know who Tovi is nor what his arguments are but you are grafting someone else's traits on to someone else, me and therefore such tactics can be considered an ad hominem attack on my character based on a logical fallacy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:23:06 pm
I never said anything about the ad hominem accusation applying either way, just posting a link explaining it, among other fallacies.
Btw the wiki link is more complete. It has sub-links that go into further detail for each example.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:23:32 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:22:22 pm
And comparing me to someone called Tovi is a logical falicy, I don't know who Tovi is nor what his arguments are but you are grafting someone else's traits on to someone else, me and therefore such tactics can be considered an ad hominem attack on my character based on a logical fallacy.
Bro, do you even know what logic is? Comparing you to Tovi comes nowhere near a logical fallacy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:25:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:23:32 pm
Bro, do you even know what logic is? Comparing you to Tovi comes nowhere near a logical fallacy.

Where is the logic in comparing the traits of one, in my case unknown individual when applying it in response to my posts? I don't even know who Tovi is nor what he stands for and yet you're using it against me in an argument? Where's the logic in that Xant?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:27:17 pm
To be fair, saying "you're a fucking idiot because you said this" is not the equivalent of "you're an idiot, therefore what you said is stupid". I did adress your arguements, you showed nothing but emotional, dramatic exageration (ex: EU, the toothless, militarily non-existant, completely geopolitically fragmented and divided organization, is acting geopolitically exactly like the SU did) just because it furthered your own perspective. I felt completely entitled to call you an ignorant moron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:28:07 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:25:16 pm
Where is the logic in comparing the traits of one, in my case unknown individual when applying it in response to my posts? I don't even know who Tovi is nor what he stands for and yet you're using it against me in an argument? Where's the logic in that Xant?
So I'll take that as "no, I have no idea what logic is."


--------------------


THE AD HOMINEM FALLACY FALLACY
One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed.

In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's arguments.

Therefore, if you can't demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can't demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent's sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument.

Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal "ad hominem" are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument.

But enough vagueness. The point of this article is to bury the reader under an avalanche of examples of correct and incorrect usage of ad hominem, in the hope that once the avalanche has passed, the term will never be used incorrectly again.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "This does not logically follow. By your own argument, the set of rodents is a subset of the set of mammals; and therefore, a weasel can be outside the set of rodents and still be in the set of mammals."
Hopefully it should be clear that neither A's argument nor B's argument is ad hominem. Perhaps there are some people who think that any disagreement is an ad hominem argument, but these people shouldn't be allowed out of fairyland.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "This does not logically follow."
B's argument is less comprehensive, but still not ad hominem.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "This does not logically follow. You evidently know nothing about logic."
B's argument is still not ad hominem. Note that B directly engages A's argument: he is not attacking the person A instead of his argument. There is no indication that B thinks his subsequent attack on A strengthens his argument, or is a substitute for engaging with A's argument. Unless we have a good reason for thinking otherwise, we should assume it is just a sarcastic flourish.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "You evidently know nothing about logic. This does not logically follow."
B's argument is still not ad hominem. B does not imply that A's sentence does not logically follow because A knows nothing about logic. B is still addressing the substance of A's argument.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "You evidently know nothing about logic."
B's argument is, most probably, still not ad hominem. The word "evidently" indicates that B is basing his opinion of A's logical skills on the evidence of A's statement. Therefore, B's sentence is a sarcastic way of saying that A's argument is logically unsound: B is attacking A's argument. He is not attacking the person instead of the argument.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "You know nothing about logic."
Even now, we can't conclude that B's reply is ad hominem. It could well be, and probably is, the case that B is basing his reply on A's argument. He is not saying that A's argument is flawed because A knows nothing about logic; instead, he is using A's fallacious argument as evidence to present a new argument: that A knows nothing about logic.

Put briefly, ad hominem is "You are an ignorant person, therefore your arguments are wrong", and not "Your arguments are wrong, therefore you are an ignorant person." The latter statement may be fallacious, but it's not an ad hominem fallacy.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "This does not logically follow. And you're an asshole."
B is abusive, but his argument is still not ad hominem. He engages with A's argument. There is no reason to conclude that the personal abuse of A is part of B's argument, or that B thinks it undermines A's argument.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "You're an asshole."
B's reply is not necessarily ad hominem. There is no evidence that's his abusive statement is intended as a counter-argument. If it's not an argument, it's not an ad hominem argument.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "You evidently know nothing about logic. And you're an asshole."
Again, B's reply is not necessarily ad hominem.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "Fuck you."
Not ad hominem. B's abuse is not a counter-argument, but a request for A to cease the discussion.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "Well, you've never had a good grasp of logic, so this can't be true."
B's argument here is ad hominem. He concludes that A is wrong not by addressing A's argument, but by appealing to the negative image of A the person.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "Well, you're a moron and an asshole, so there goes your argument."
B's reply here is ad hominem and abusive.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "Well, you're a rodent and a weasel, so there goes your argument."
B's argument here might appear on superficial inspection to be sound, but it is in fact ad hominem. He is using the terms "rodent" and "weasel" in different senses to those used by A. Although he tries to make it appear that he is countering A's argument by invalidating one of the premises, he is in fact trying to counter A's argument by heaping abuse on A. (This might also be an example of an ad homonym argument.)

A: "All murderers are criminals, but a thief isn't a murderer, and so can't be a criminal."
B: "Well, you're a thief and a criminal, so there goes your argument."
Harder to call this one. B is addressing A's argument, but perhaps unwittingly.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "Wrong! If a weasel isn't a rodent, then it must be an insectivore! What an asshole!"
B's argument is logically fallacious, and he concludes with some gratuitous abuse, but nothing here is ad hominem.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "I'm sorry, but I'd prefer to trust the opinion of a trained zoologist on this one."
B's argument is ad hominem: he is attempting to counter A not by addressing his argument, but by casting doubt on A's credentials. Note that B is polite and not at all insulting.

A: "Listen up, asshole. All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "Yet another ad hominem argument. Ignore this one, folks."
A is abusive, and his argument is fallacious, but it's not ad hominem. B's reply, ironically, is ad hominem; while he pretends to deal with A's argument, in using the term "ad hominem" incorrectly, B is in fact trying to dismiss the argument by imputing that A is resorting to personal attacks.

A: "Listen up, asshole. All rodents are mammals, and a lizard isn't a mammal, so it can't be a rodent."
B: "Yet another ad hominem argument. Ignore this one, folks."
A's argument is sound, and not ad hominem. B's reply is again ad hominem.

A: "B is a convicted criminal and his arguments are not to be trusted."
B: "Yet another ad hominem argument. Ignore this one, folks."
A's argument is ad hominem, since it attempts to undermine all of B's (hypothetical) arguments by a personal attack. B's reply is not ad hominem, since it directly addresses A's argument (correctly characterising it as ad hominem).

A: "All politicians are assholes, and you're just another politician. Therefore, you're an asshole."
B: "Yet another ad hominem argument."
If you accept the premises, A's argument is sound. Either way, from the given context, we cannot conclude that it is ad hominem: it's not an attempt to undermine B's (hypothetical) arguments by abusing him, but instead an attempt to establish that B is an asshole. B's reply is ad hominem, since by incorrectly using the term "ad hominem", he is trying to undermine A's argument by claiming that A is resorting to personal attacks.

A: "All politicians are liars, and you're just another politician. Therefore, you're a liar and your arguments are not to be trusted."
B: "Yet another ad hominem argument."
If you accept the premises, A's argument is sound; but I think most of us would sympathise with B and class it as fallacious, and ad hominem. This is because we do not accept the premise that all politicians are liars. There is a false premise that lies behind all ad hominem arguments: the notion that all people of type X make bad arguments. A has just made this premise explicit.

A: "All rodents are mammals, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal."
B: "That does not logically follow."
A: "*Sigh* Do I have to spell it out for you? All rodents are mammals, right, but a weasel isn't a rodent, so it can't be a mammal! What's so hard to understand???!?"
B: "I'm afraid you're mistaken. Look at it logically. If p implies q, then it does not follow that not-p implies not-q."
A: "I don't care about so-called logic and Ps and Qs and that stuff, I'm talking COMMON SENSE. A weasel ISN'T a mammal."
B: "Okay, this guy's an idiot. Ignore this one, folks."
A: "AD HOMINEM!!!! I WIN!!!!!"
Although the last line of B, taken out of context, might look ad hominem (and was seized upon as such by A), it should be clear that taken as a whole, B's argument is not ad hominem. B engaged thoroughly with A's argument. He is not countering A's argument by saying A is an idiot; on the contrary, having logically countered A's argument, and having seen A's reaction, he is arguing that A is an idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:29:45 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:27:17 pm
To be fair, saying "you're a fucking idiot because you said this" is not the equivalent of "you're an idiot, therefore what you said is stupid". I did adress your arguements, you showed nothing but emotional, dramatic exageration (ex: EU, the toothless, militarily non-existant, completely geopolitically fragmented and divided organization, is acting geopolitically exactly like the SU did) just because it furthered your own perspective. I felt completely entitled to call you an ignorant moron.

The soviet union was characterised by expansionism, and therefore gives nations such as the Poles and other East European states their excuse to oppose the Russian Federation, the Russian Federation has not been expansionist, only protectionist where as the EU as a state has expanded and thus has taken up the role of the SU, albeit under a different political ideology, the geopolitical result is still the same, expansion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 09, 2014, 02:30:29 pm
New blood to this thread I see  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:32:44 pm
So the one defining trait of the Soviet Union was expansionism. Are you sure there aren't a couple of other things you may want to add there? Or would it make it too obvious that the EU is nothing like the SU?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:33:24 pm
Xan't cant even give an adequate response to my questions, instead he diverts attention towards non-issues and issues outside of the context of the original content of the thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:34:18 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:32:44 pm
So the one defining trait of the Soviet Union was expansionism. Are you sure there aren't a couple of other things you may want to add there? Or would it make it too obvious that the EU is nothing like the SU?

That again would be excusing the EU's expansion by distracting from the geopolitical reality of the situation which will see two political ideologies yet again clash and bring about a new cold war, which will benefit no one in the long run.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:35:13 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:33:24 pm
Xan't cant even give an adequate response to my questions, instead he diverts attention towards non-issues and issues outside of the context of the original content of the thread.
The amount of hypocrisy is delicious. You suddenly become very interested in diverting attention yourself when I've shown how big of a retard you've been with your "omg ur ad homineming" crap.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:35:38 pm
Ok, fine, the EU is expansionist. How did it manage to expand, compared to the SU?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:39:36 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:35:38 pm
Ok, fine, the EU is expansionist. How did it manage to expand, compared to the SU?

In Ukraine it can be said the EU's influence had expanded right up to the Russian border through the manipulation of anti-government dissenters, (you have them in ever country in the world), through the use of NGO's and playing on political ideologies, sure many Ukrainians would like to be apart of the EU rather than the Russian sphere of influence, I'm not ignorant to that fact and through 5 billion USD to promote "democracy".. But the reality of the matter is that the EU/NATO is creeping closer to Russia and cornering it geopolitically, it will not end well. #

Every nation has its own intricate reasons, many of those reasons date back to the SU and therefore by seeing the Russian Federation as the SU will only bring about counter productive measures and government conduct.

I have to go now, please enjoy posting in my absence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:49:04 pm
Do you really believe that the EU "bribed" it's way into influence? So shameful. That would never happen under the clean as a whistle previous russian arrangement they had with ukrainian plutocrats. I suppose the covert EU provocateurs sprinkled worldwide doing CIA psyops are really to blame.
I don't get it, you yourself accept that Ukraine had valid reasons to try and get closer to EU, that it would obviously benefit it's people in many ways. The only barrier here seems to be...it pisses the russians off? Well you know what, fuck them. Ukraine isn't their land. The RF has no legitimacy over it. Poor russians will just have to be content with the ridiculously underpopulated massive chunk of Eurasia that is larger than the entire european continent, the poor "cornered" dears.
Btw Xant, spoiler that giant wall of text, damn.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 03:05:33 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 09, 2014, 02:49:04 pm
Btw Xant, spoiler that giant wall of text, damn.
I would, but I'm not sure Murmillus knows that you can click the "spoiler" thing and reveal text. And anyway, I like it as a giant reminder to Murmillus every time he looks at this page that he's a huge retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 03:11:30 pm
OMG, today I recieved the agenda in a military registration and enlistment office, so I have to go there in 3 days, seems it's mobilization. I called my friend in army and he said that they prepare to enter the Ukraine. What is going on?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on August 09, 2014, 03:28:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 03:11:30 pm
OMG, today I recieved the agenda in a military registration and enlistment office, so I have to go there in 3 days, seems it's mobilization. I called my friend in army and he said that they prepare to enter the Ukraine. What is going on?

can I have your looms in case you die?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 09, 2014, 03:30:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 03:11:30 pm
OMG, today I recieved the agenda in a military registration and enlistment office, so I have to go there in 3 days, seems it's mobilization. I called my friend in army and he said that they prepare to enter the Ukraine. What is going on?
Wtf, is that for real?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 03:35:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 03:11:30 pm
OMG, today I recieved the agenda in a military registration and enlistment office, so I have to go there in 3 days, seems it's mobilization. I called my friend in army and he said that they prepare to enter the Ukraine. What is going on?
Probably nothing much. I'd expect Russia is just showing their "readiness" for whatever reason - actually attacking Ukraine would fuck them over so much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 09, 2014, 03:53:36 pm
Probably first step of 10 toward open hostility, but thanks for sharing input DonNicko.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 09, 2014, 03:55:42 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 03:11:30 pm
OMG, today I recieved the agenda in a military registration and enlistment office, so I have to go there in 3 days, seems it's mobilization. I called my friend in army and he said that they prepare to enter the Ukraine. What is going on?
врядли местные тупые тролли тебе смогут ответить на этот вопрос ))) тож получил извещение из военкомата, думаю просто сборы очередные, пока игнорю
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 09, 2014, 04:23:39 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 09, 2014, 03:55:42 pm
врядли местные тупые тролли тебе смогут ответить на этот вопрос ))) тож получил извещение из военкомата, думаю просто сборы очередные, пока игнорю
Друг говорил, еще неделю назад, что запасников на сборы собирают. Вроде не перый раз.

Нико, а тебе реально не надоедает тут всерьез рубиться с ними? Чего ради )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 09, 2014, 05:10:00 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 03:35:05 pm
Probably nothing much. I'd expect Russia is just showing their "readiness" for whatever reason - actually attacking Ukraine would fuck them over so much.

I predict Putin will do it, sooner or later.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 09, 2014, 05:15:02 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 09, 2014, 02:34:18 pm
That again would be excusing the EU's expansion by distracting from the geopolitical reality of the situation which will see two political ideologies yet again clash and bring about a new cold war, which will benefit no one in the long run.

The expansion of the EU being totally voluntary on the part of the countries joining it.  The expansion of the SU and now Russia being totally forced upon the countries being subsumed.  A key difference that you so conveniently ignore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 09, 2014, 05:20:10 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 09, 2014, 03:53:36 pm
Probably first step of 10 toward open hostility, but thanks for sharing input DonNicko.

I think that with the Russian army's artillery firing on Ukrainian forces across the border, we already reached open hostility.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 09, 2014, 06:30:23 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 09, 2014, 05:15:02 pm
The expansion of the EU being totally voluntary on the part of the countries joining it.  The expansion of the SU and now Russia being totally forced upon the countries being subsumed.  A key difference that you so conveniently ignore.
Indeed. He forgets that there are quite many countries that arent in EU and nobody is forcing them to. Like the Balkan, Norway and Switzerland. Also theres been talk that UK is planning to leaving EU aswell. And sofar not a single person in the council has given them shit for it. Its their choice and they are free. So dont go full retard and compare SU, that was a barely sustainable Empire that was basically ducttaped together from many countries by force to EU.

And about NATO.....Lets not forget about League on Nations, that was created after WW1 to ensure world peace.  That was basically a predecessor to the EU. Its massive handicap was always that all it had was talk and nothing else. If they had something like NATO at their disposal at that time, Hit ler would have easly been stopped before he could have even shaved one part of his moustace off. NATO is what it is, because we tried the harmless "world peace" organisation in the past and it failed horribly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 09, 2014, 07:24:00 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 09, 2014, 05:20:10 pm
I think that with the Russian army's artillery firing on Ukrainian forces across the border, we already reached open hostility.

Ukrainian forces sporadically firing in Russia territory too, but you're right, by open hostility I meant open war and not under the skirts like today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 07:58:18 pm
My friend in army said that it will be one or two days operation. We will just destroy all forces of ukranian army, and get back.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 09, 2014, 08:06:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 07:58:18 pm
My friend in army said that it will be one or two days operation. We will just destroy all forces of ukranian army, and get back.
You're friend is not too bright then...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 09, 2014, 08:10:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 07:58:18 pm
My friend in army said that it will be one or two days operation. We will just destroy all forces of ukranian army, and get back.
Usually I'd be sure DonNicko is trolling, but since he's Russian I'm not so sure....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nicko on August 09, 2014, 08:13:28 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 09, 2014, 08:06:38 pm
You're friend is not too bright then...
Why he is not bright?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 08:22:41 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on August 09, 2014, 08:41:38 pm
Quote from: Nicko on August 09, 2014, 08:13:28 pm
Why he is not bright?

We'll be home by Christmas!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 09, 2014, 08:43:40 pm
Damn...I blame THE PARTY for keeping me away from PC enjoying fine weather, fine wine and fine evening with friends instead of watching Tovi dishing it out Vs Murmillus_Prime retardness, even if Tovi was in absentia. Need to update the voting in the thread, because the current one is pointless anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on August 09, 2014, 08:56:49 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 09, 2014, 07:58:18 pm
My friend in army said that it will be one or two days operation.

That actually is what they told German soldiers back when WW1 started.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 09, 2014, 10:40:56 pm
Quote from: Paul on August 09, 2014, 08:56:49 pm
That actually is what they told German soldiers back when WW1 started.

 :lol:


At least you didnt use WW2/nazi parallels, I applaud you  :P  its a bit over-used here
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 10, 2014, 12:54:15 am
Back online.

Was a really good read so far, I liked it would read again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 10, 2014, 12:58:44 am
Quote from: Christo on August 10, 2014, 12:54:15 am
Back online.

Was a really good read so far, I liked it would read again

I have to say Murmillus was a worthwhile addition to "Butan and Tovi's Rhetorician's Horrorshow".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nordwolf on August 10, 2014, 01:55:03 am
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=540451376084155
...
No comments.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 10, 2014, 02:11:50 am
Quote from: Nordwolf on August 10, 2014, 01:55:03 am
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=540451376084155
...
No comments.
Actually it says there's 209 comments right now
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 10, 2014, 02:37:45 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 10, 2014, 12:58:44 am
I have to say Murmillus was a worthwhile addition to "Butan and Tovi's Rhetorician's Horrorshow".

Luv u too  :oops:



Quote from: Nordwolf on August 10, 2014, 01:55:03 am
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=540451376084155
...
No comments.


If its a RF funded spectacle, shame on them indeed  :lol: I didnt have to understand russian to see what was going on.
(click to show/hide)

But, sorry to add this, I know Kafein will hate me for that... Just after Maidan was over (and still possibly active today), some "Maidan museum(s)" were created by obviously objective people, with video documentaries and "all the things you need to know, to know the truth of what happened!" and it was about the same kind of bullshit, and supposed to be an educational tool for the masses. Of course those kind of shows have been hosted in Ukraine and other western countries  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 10, 2014, 05:19:40 am
Quote from: Paul on August 09, 2014, 08:56:49 pm
That actually is what they told German soldiers back when WW1 started.

That's what all soldiers, and countries get told.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 10, 2014, 11:00:28 am
Quote from: Nordwolf on August 10, 2014, 01:55:03 am
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=540451376084155
...
No comments.
lol so stupid.
That's why I don't watch tv at all.
My friend's father member of Night Wolves and I was on party in their clubhouse. (actually I enjoyed. half naked girls, explosions, alcohol and stuff) They pretended to be Hell Angels (maybe in 90s they were) but I can't' imagine Obama is riding hand by hand with Hell Angels MG or Mongols MG. They lost any respect and now they are just bunch of morons "FOR MOTHER RUSSIA" (but they shooted down member of  other MC a year ago) Putin's Wolves.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 10, 2014, 11:20:48 am
Quote from: Butan on August 10, 2014, 02:37:45 am
But, sorry to add this, I know Kafein will hate me for that... Just after Maidan was over (and still possibly active today), some "Maidan museum(s)" were created by obviously objective people, with video documentaries and "all the things you need to know, to know the truth of what happened!" and it was about the same kind of bullshit, and supposed to be an educational tool for the masses. Of course those kind of shows have been hosted in Ukraine and other western countries  :twisted:
Well there is a difference. As far as I could tell that museum was pitched and made by the locals, it wasnt endorsed by high ranking politicians. So I quess there no harm in it. Quite sure there would be nothing wrong with "Night Wolves" aswell if it didnt travel around other countries with the message - “wherever the Night Wolves are, that should be considered Russia" and endorsed by the fucking president himself. Once again I admire your neutral stance, but one day you are gonna have to grow up into a big boy and realise the world is filled with powerhungry dictatorish types, so majority of the time one side is inevitably more to blame than the other.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 10, 2014, 12:08:03 pm
Quote from: Nordwolf on August 10, 2014, 01:55:03 am
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=540451376084155
...
No comments.

Ok what the actual fuck
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 10, 2014, 12:21:56 pm
Tsk tsk, the difference is Putin is honest! Do you really think EU undercover provocateurs and bribes didn't build those museums from the ground up? Why else would they even exist, unless as a western propaganda tool to convert the masses? Only weak ukrainians who sold their proud slavic souls for money would pretend to care. It is the only answer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on August 10, 2014, 12:58:52 pm
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/u/0/embed?mid=zjOaq88N3N_g.knEcWTZi7F_M
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 10, 2014, 01:10:34 pm

I have heard about a 'Maidan 2.0' happening days ago, mostly from russian sources at first.

 well here's some coverage by our favorite Yolostrovsky



Man, I must say the ukrainians hate those shields and just give them away for some reason
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nordwolf on August 10, 2014, 01:53:56 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 10, 2014, 01:10:34 pm
(click to show/hide)
'
I personally live 1 km from Maidan and the people that are still there have nothing to do with actual protesting and what happened this winter. I have been there in February and Spring and now it's just a bunch of drunk retarded people who don't know where to go else because they either lost their job, had no home or just have no meaning in life whatsoever other then wasting their time in that trashpile they created as their "new home". The people who have fire in their minds and will to fight something have all went to the east as volunteers.

Also please don't think that these ~100-200 people represent this country by any means.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 10, 2014, 02:34:30 pm
Notice how I wrote "Maidan 2.0"

It was in quotes for a reason

From what I've seen they have no real goals, and cannot be negotiated with.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 10, 2014, 03:49:32 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 10, 2014, 02:34:30 pm
From what I've seen they have no real goals, and cannot be negotiated with.

Their goal seems to be the implementation of the political reforms demanded by Maidan protesters back in January. It wouldn't surprise me if those that didn't leave Maidan were the artists, students and left-wingers as opposed to most of the cookies who chose instead to go fight for their country in the East.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 10, 2014, 03:55:20 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 10, 2014, 03:49:32 pm
Their goal seems to be the implementation of the political reforms demanded by Maidan protesters back in January. It wouldn't surprise me if those that didn't leave Maidan were the artists, students and left-wingers as opposed to most of the cookies who chose instead to go fight for their country in the East.
Seems they are not paid for Maidan, so they are offended and still stay there
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 10, 2014, 07:46:22 pm
I think they are completely at a loss why three months ago, they drank, ate, screamed and jumped and were the heroes and true patriots of the motherland, and now when they do the same thing become scum of society)))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 10, 2014, 08:02:39 pm
Mybe they were the dudes who were inside their homes and shaking in their bathtubs when the protests took place and it was dangerous, now that its safe they popped out and quickly started rioting and camping out to prove what awesome heroes they really are. Eh, who really knows.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 10, 2014, 08:15:44 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 10, 2014, 08:02:39 pm
Mybe they were the dudes who were inside their homes and shaking in their bathtubs when the protests took place and it was dangerous, now that its safe they popped out and quickly started rioting and camping out to prove what awesome heroes they really are. Eh, who really knows.
pls leave this important discussion, go do some selfie as you eat sprats XD

By the way, do anyone noticed any real consequences of all these sanctions? please leave propaganda and be honest) in Pitersburg yet no consequences ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 10, 2014, 08:24:06 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 10, 2014, 08:15:44 pm
pls leave this important discussion, go do some selfie as you eat sprats XD

By the way, do anyone noticed any real consequences of all these sanctions? please leave propaganda and be honest) in Pitersburg yet no consequences ((
No consequences and no sprats :D

From what I have read - if one had invested in russian food makers stocks - one would be TIMES richer nao  8-) So thats a consequence I guess... :rolleyes:

Meanwhile in Ukraine, Donetsk (it seems):
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 10, 2014, 08:28:36 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 10, 2014, 08:24:06 pm
No consequences and no sprats :D

From what I have read - if one had invested in russian food makers stocks - one would be TIMES richer nao  8-) So thats a consequence I guess... :rolleyes:
yeah +30% on getting news and 18% at the end of a day,
 I could be rich, drive expensive cars and give candy to your moms  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 10, 2014, 08:28:48 pm
They're mostly homeless squatters that moved in all the empty buildings following the "civil war". Are you saying Maidan was conducted entirely by alcoholics and crackhead bums? Fucking impressive if true.
Oh no, wait, they must be all the hired goons of the EU provocateurs, and now they're pissed cause they didn't get their promised bribes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 10, 2014, 08:48:59 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 10, 2014, 08:15:44 pm
pls leave this important discussion, go do some selfie as you eat sprats XD

By the way, do anyone noticed any real consequences of all these sanctions? please leave propaganda and be honest) in Pitersburg yet no consequences ((

Why sprats? I figured you would say potatoe or something. :lol: And honestly even if there were any real consequences, its not like Kremlin would admit it anyway. If anything they would try to hide it as much as possible. So again: Who knows. Some rich oligarchs that are close to Putin have started to cry, but other than that nothing much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 10, 2014, 09:00:43 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 10, 2014, 08:48:59 pm
Why sprats? I figured you would say potatoe or something. :lol: And honestly even if there were any real consequences, its not like Kremlin would admit it anyway. If anything they would try to hide it as much as possible. So again: Who knows. Some rich oligarchs that are close to Putin have started to cry, but other than that nothing much.
yep all printers in Kremlin print food right now for hidding real consequences like holodomor in russia  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 10, 2014, 09:03:42 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 10, 2014, 08:28:48 pm
They're mostly homeless squatters that moved in all the empty buildings following the "civil war". Are you saying Maidan was conducted entirely by alcoholics and crackhead bums? Fucking impressive if true.
Oh no, wait, they must be all the hired goons of the EU provocateurs, and now they're pissed cause they didn't get their promised bribes.
They look like these infamous "NATO spec ops" we keep hearing about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 10, 2014, 09:57:17 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 10, 2014, 09:00:43 pm
yep all printers in Kremlin print food right now for hidding real consequences like holodomor in russia  :P
Well it was during Soviet Union times. Half the Empire practically starving to death and Kremlins all like: "nope, no problems in this country, all hail Motherland". But yea, this day and age its quite impossible to hide anything with all the internet etc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 10, 2014, 10:02:16 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 10, 2014, 09:57:17 pm
Well it was during Soviet Union times. Half the Empire practically starving to death and Kremlins all like: "nope, no problems in this country, all hail Motherland". But yea, this day and age its quite impossible to hide anything with all the internet etc.

Internet ?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 11, 2014, 01:26:50 am
  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 11, 2014, 06:25:52 am
Das Boot before it was cool

2cool4u-boats
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 11, 2014, 03:54:51 pm
Experiment. Wearing Ukr colors in Moscow and wearing Russian colors in Kiev. Woman got arrested in Moscow, in Kiev the guy got some attention but thats it. Wait, who were the oppressing na zis again?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 11, 2014, 05:44:43 pm
Try 10 more times with different people and watch the results  :P


Or just use history function and find the video where people got molested and thrown rocks at for waving russian/soviet union flags (one I remember was from car and subsequent car chases) in Ukraine?
Does that mean they are nazi, but only sometimes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 06:00:35 pm
Before revolution on Maidan 08.02.2014. symbol of a victory over fascism - St.George's Ribbon were taken out and burned.
Others videos are after maidan so there are a lot of people are offended and make stupid things as Butan said)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 11, 2014, 06:58:10 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 11, 2014, 05:44:43 pm
Try 10 more times with different people and watch the results  :P


Or just use history function and find the video where people got molested and thrown rocks at for waving russian/soviet union flags (one I remember was from car and subsequent car chases) in Ukraine?
Does that mean they are nazi, but only sometimes?
"Different people"? SHE GOT ARRESTED you dimwit, it's not about what the "people" do.

And you're retarded, that video where people threw rocks at the car was a completely different scenario, but naturally your memory is selective and you forget to mention that everyone called you a retard back then as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 11, 2014, 07:05:34 pm
Tbf, she might have been "arrested" for her own protection, so it is about the people. Did she actually get charged with anything? I'm going to guess they released her soon afterwards. Probably got put on some anti-terrorist list for sure though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 11, 2014, 09:15:13 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on August 11, 2014, 07:05:34 pm
Tbf, she might have been "arrested" for her own protection, so it is about the people. Did she actually get charged with anything? I'm going to guess they released her soon afterwards. Probably got put on some anti-terrorist list for sure though.
They're dragging her away by force. That's definitely not how it should work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 11, 2014, 09:15:13 pm
They're dragging her away by force. That's definitely not how it should work.
OMG what a powerful force. I have never seen it before. Xant what should policemen do if she didn't want to come with them by herself?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dezilagel on August 11, 2014, 09:27:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 09:25:48 pm
OMG what a powerful force. I have never seen it before. Xant what should policemen do if she didn't want to come with them by herself?

^ Assuming she needs to be arrested in the first place
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 09:30:40 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on August 11, 2014, 09:27:25 pm
^ Assuming she needs to be arrested in the first place
I think she got to police because she called people in Russia as Colorado beetle and some other not good words. So everything in law
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 11, 2014, 10:17:29 pm
attention whores
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 11, 2014, 10:32:37 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 11, 2014, 03:54:51 pm
Experiment. Wearing Ukr colors in Moscow and wearing Russian colors in Kiev. Woman got arrested in Moscow, in Kiev the guy got some attention but thats it. Wait, who were the oppressing na zis again?
who knows the Russian language, can confirm that the woman frm 1st seconds of the video provokes aggression, standard phrases, "Colorads" "Putler", etc. The man with the flag, politely explains that his goal is to show the adequacy of the others.
 Its nothing about flags

Quote from: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 09:30:40 pm
I think she got to police because she called people in Russia as Colorado beetle and some other not good words. So everything in law
they just save her ass from rape  :P Our police protect even such  a stupid babes ^^

Quote from: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 09:25:48 pm
OMG what a powerful force. I have never seen it before. Xant what should policemen do if she didn't want to come with them by herself?
shot with rubber bullets, let the dogs, then control burst  :P like ll cops do in democratic countries  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 11, 2014, 10:44:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 09:25:48 pm
OMG what a powerful force. I have never seen it before. Xant what should policemen do if she didn't want to come with them by herself?
Uh... leave her alone? Get rid of the people who are threatening, not the one doing nothing? Why should they use any force at all to remove someone who's broken no laws?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 11, 2014, 10:46:25 pm
btw
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=f282685567941c1f124be91f319261f7)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 10:54:06 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 11, 2014, 10:44:25 pm
Uh... leave her alone? Get rid of the people who are threatening, not the one doing nothing? Why should they use any force at all to remove someone who's broken no laws?
article 151 of CC RF. She broke that law. But I agree with Vovka, they just got her away from people who she called colorado. Because she would defenitely get to the nose for that words.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 11, 2014, 11:23:44 pm
Yes, and that's Russia for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 11, 2014, 11:28:32 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 11, 2014, 10:44:25 pm
Uh... leave her alone? Get rid of the people who are threatening, not the one doing nothing? Why should they use any force at all to remove someone who's broken no laws?

Sometimes you're the deadliest pragmatic asshole, sometimes you're really a naive buttercup, young Xant.
(click to show/hide)

"Getting rid of innocent person", a.k.a., moving from point A (where the innocent person might be hurt) to point B (where the innocent person is safe), is one of the many strange but real-life compromises law enforcement deal with on a daily basis.
The alternative would be either doing nothing to the point of escalation, or arresting ten times more guilty people that will pose ten times more problems.

No need to speak russian to understand that they did the most reasonable thing, especially if according to russian law she did "do something".
Then when you add all the particular background informations (Ukraine-Russia actual history + the body language of the people involved), its even more obvious that its business as usual that you could have seen in all the countries in the world.


TL;DR: nothing to see, move along.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 11, 2014, 11:35:12 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 11, 2014, 11:28:32 pm
or arresting ten times more guilty people that will pose ten times more problems.
LOL.

"Uhh, guys, there's a school shooter on a spree, but how about that hot college girl? She hasn't done anything, but she'd be less trouble to arrest."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 12, 2014, 12:00:12 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 11, 2014, 06:00:35 pm
Before revolution on Maidan 08.02.2014. symbol of a victory over fascism - St.George's Ribbon were taken out and burned.
Others videos are after maidan so there are a lot of people are offended and make stupid things as Butan said)
Yes, because St. George Ribbons are totally used as a means of commemorating the victory over Germany in WW2 nowadays :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 12:09:16 am
Quote from: [ptx] on August 12, 2014, 12:00:12 am
Yes, because St. George Ribbons are totally used as a means of commemorating the victory over Germany in WW2 nowadays :rolleyes:
Didn't get what you wanted to say. Maybe you can translate it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 12, 2014, 02:05:45 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 07:12:31 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 12:09:16 am
Didn't get what you wanted to say. Maybe you can translate it?
He was being ironic. As in they ARE NOT a symbol of victory over fascism anymore. You russians basically ruined the message of the ribbon, by calling everything you dont like fascism where there never was any. The Ribbon of Saint George has become more of a symbol of russian nationalism, than victory over Germany in WW2.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 07:28:07 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 07:12:31 am
He was being ironic. As in they ARE NOT a symbol of victory over fascism anymore. You russians basically ruined the message of the ribbon, by calling everything you dont like fascism where there never was any. The Ribbon of Saint George has become more of a symbol of russian nationalism, than victory over Germany in WW2.
National symbol of Russia is  flag. Never heard that this was a symbol of russion nationalism. As I know it  become so for others just when South East of Ukraine started to separate, but before it that was OK. Where it was used against fascism where there never was? Video is before maidan actions
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 12, 2014, 07:40:05 am
Proof of Maidan being controlled by neonazees (thanks Christo)

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 08:39:55 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 07:28:07 am
National symbol of Russia is  flag. Never heard that this was a symbol of russion nationalism. As I know it  become so for others just when South East of Ukraine started to separate, but before it that was OK. Where it was used against fascism where there never was? Video is before maidan actions
Naivete: 1, DonNicko: -9000 :)

Although on a general level I would agree, that video about treatment of different flags is a bit demonstratory, instead of representative I guess... But I still don't understand what law was broken. "article 151 of CC RF" does not say anything. Or is it the new law about not being allowed to use rude words? If thats the case - when are you planning to arrest a certain zhirinovky? :rolleyes:

Meanwhile in EU - price of gas transportation is inverted in EU courtesy of Gazprom - the further you are from russia, the cheaper the gas (also - a major impact of "wasSUCountry" flag is detected)!
http://www.rferl.org/contentinfographics/gazprom-russia-gas-leverage-europe/25441983.html

Vovka and others in russia: do you still have enough SPRATS? WHEN will you end this madness?  :rolleyes:
http://vybornovk.livejournal.com/71149.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 09:28:06 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 08:39:55 am
Vovka and others in russia: do you still have enough SPRATS? WHEN will you end this madness?  :rolleyes:
http://vybornovk.livejournal.com/71149.html
I have a video specially for you, will post  it when I get home :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 12, 2014, 09:33:47 am
I see a lot of pasta... Barillia... ain't that bad then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 09:35:12 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 09:41:36 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 09:28:06 am
I have a video specially for you, will post  it when I get home :P
oh found it have fun:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 09:56:15 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 09:41:36 am
oh found it have fun:

Nah... this is your problum with the chinese immigrants and its not SPRATS! Its pieces of bones... come on, gimme fight for SPRATS :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 10:09:36 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 08:39:55 am
Naivete: 1, DonNicko: -9000 :)

Although on a general level I would agree, that video about treatment of different flags is a bit demonstratory, instead of representative I guess... But I still don't understand what law was broken. "article 151 of CC RF" does not say anything. Or is it the new law about not being allowed to use rude words? If thats the case - when are you planning to arrest a certain zhirinovky? :rolleyes:

Meanwhile in EU - price of gas transportation is inverted in EU courtesy of Gazprom - the further you are from russia, the cheaper the gas (also - a major impact of "wasSUCountry" flag is detected)!
http://www.rferl.org/contentinfographics/gazprom-russia-gas-leverage-europe/25441983.html

Vovka and others in russia: do you still have enough SPRATS? WHEN will you end this madness?  :rolleyes:
http://vybornovk.livejournal.com/71149.html
lol Kuujis can you find some more interesting pictures, Zhirinovsky would be arrested if he won't be a politican and has independence, You don't get a lot of things about Russia. Just what TV shows you :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 10:32:20 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 10:09:36 am
lol Kuujis can you find some more interesting pictures, Zhirinovsky would be arrested if he won't be a politican and has independence, You don't get a lot of things about Russia. Just what TV shows you :lol:
In a normal country legal immunity would be revoked for a transgressor of national laws.  It's not like it can't be taken away. What do I NOT GET about russia?

How does your police act when they catch a car with diplomatic license plates driving dangerously and obviously intoxicated? (AND swearing at the cops too! for the "article 151 of CC RF" to be applicable!)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 11:43:36 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 10:32:20 am
In a normal country legal immunity would be revoked for a transgressor of national laws.  It's not like it can't be taken away. What do I NOT GET about russia?

How does your police act when they catch a car with diplomatic license plates driving dangerously and obviously intoxicated? (AND swearing at the cops too! for the "article 151 of CC RF" to be applicable!)
that's so sweet, you show such tender care of Russia  :P come and bring democracy in my country pls!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 01:15:38 pm
campaign chronicles in shop in my city:
Potato costs 15 rub. for a 1 kg, month ago - 25 rub.
Tomato - 30 rub. for 1 kg., month ago - 50 rub.
beef - 230 rub. for 1 kg.
chicken forcemeat - 95 rub. for 1kg.
Eggs - 25 rub. for 10 eggs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 01:24:37 pm
I have checks for the last six months, at one and same products, potatoes, meat, beer, baby cream, wet wipes. I do not see any rise in prices)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 01:30:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 11:43:36 am
that's so sweet, you show such tender care of Russia  :P come and bring democracy in my country pls!
So sweet dodging like this... Does putler teach this in speshul classes?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


CBA installing democracies in foreign countries, we have US of A/NATO/EU (pick your poison) for that. I have my own russian 5th column in LT to take care of!  :mrgreen:

Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 01:15:38 pm
campaign chronicles in shop in my city:
Potato costs 15 rub. for a 1 kg, month ago - 25 rub.
Tomato - 30 rub. for 1 kg., month ago - 50 rub.
beef - 230 rub. for 1 kg.
chicken forcemeat - 95 rub. for 1kg.
Eggs - 25 rub. for 10 eggs
Well... in putlers russia - economics do you, not the other way around.

CUT THE SUPPLY OF A GIVEN WARE -> PRICE OF A GIVEN WARE GOES DOWN!

You heard it first in here...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 12, 2014, 02:11:58 pm
Reports on what is currently happening in the region of Luhansk, in the last few days. Principally from the inhabitants point of view.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11027588/Residents-of-besieged-Ukrainian-city-bury-dead-in-yards-and-gardens.html

I dont remember if the telegraph is a bad newspaper, if it is dont hesitate to post your thoughts on them.



A little retrospection on Maidan, the "Ukraine Diaries", from a writer who shares both Russian and Ukrainian heritage.

http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21611034-novelists-enlightening-account-life-kiev-during-ukraines-turmoil-i-witness?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07




(since almost noone continues to post infos on Ukraine, I read a few, select them, and sent it your way, please comment not too harshly!)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 04:19:26 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 01:24:37 pm
I have checks for the last six months, at one and same products, potatoes, meat, beer, baby cream, wet wipes. I do not see any rise in prices)
Wtf did you think would happen? Sanctions come and instantly in 1 hour prices rise 500%? Dont be idiotic. I think, it will take atleast a good year, if the West is lucky, for anyone to feel anything. And im quite sure it entirely depends on the area. Some areas being reliant on imports and some being fully supplied by local goods. You with your "ahuehue dont make me laugh you silly westerners" stance. Atleast use common logic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 04:25:06 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 04:19:26 pm
Wtf did you think would happen? Sanctions come and instantly in 1 hour prices rise 500%? Dont be idiotic. I think, it will take atleast a good year, if the West is lucky, for anyone to feel anything. And im quite sure it entirely depends on the area. Some areas being reliant on imports and some being fully supplied by local goods. You with your "ahuehue dont make me laugh you silly westerners" stance. Atleast use common logic.



Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 01:15:38 pm
campaign chronicles in shop in my city:
Potato costs 15 rub. for a 1 kg, month ago - 25 rub.
Tomato - 30 rub. for 1 kg., month ago - 50 rub.
beef - 230 rub. for 1 kg.
chicken forcemeat - 95 rub. for 1kg.
Eggs - 25 rub. for 10 eggs

Quote from: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 01:24:37 pm
I do not see any rise in prices)


go and find a girl mate...or ask a friend to fap fap you   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 04:29:20 pm
I dont really see the connection here. You not having the understanding of how economy and sanctions work has nothing to do with my sexlife. Infact what you just replied with made no sense at all. Or are you lacking english? Cause really. You didnt make any sense there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2014, 04:46:44 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 04:48:02 pm
Donniko: In the last month in my city potato prices have fallen from 25 to 15 per kilogram, and the price of tomatoes fell from 50 to 25 per kilogram
Vovka:  In the last month in my city prices for dat shit have not changed
Tibe:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on August 12, 2014, 04:49:03 pm
You gotta love how the EU and the USA work.   :lol:

Russia never killed children nor they bombed UN shelters,yet Putin is being called Putler, while at the same time the Jews keep on murdering kids and bombing UN shelters and the EU/USA do nothing to hurt the Jews..


OH SORRY, I FORGOT, USA SOLD SOME DRONES/MISSILES TO THE JEWS  :lol:


If I supported Russia 10 yesterday, I now support her 100, Russia vs All.


Such a shame that modern society ended up being a zionist muppet..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2014, 04:52:39 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 04:49:03 pm
You gotta love how the EU and the USA work.   :lol:

Russia never killed children nor they bombed UN shelters,yet Putin is being called Putler, while at the same time the Jews keep on murdering kids and bombing UN shelters and the EU/USA do nothing to hurt the Jews..


OH SORRY, I FORGOT, USA SOLD SOME DRONES/MISSILES TO THE JEWS  :lol:


If I supported Russia 10 yesterday, I now support her 100, Russia vs All.


Such a shame that modern society ended up being a zionist muppet..

Panos why
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on August 12, 2014, 04:54:37 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 12, 2014, 04:52:39 pm
Panos why

yea yea I know, I`m an uneducated prick who supports Putler.

Sorry guys that I aint a living prodigy who supports the Ukranians, like you guys.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 04:56:03 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 12, 2014, 04:48:02 pm
(click to show/hide)
How was I exactly mad? You are turning into a bad troll man. I figured you for a good one, but you are kinda like those 13 year olds in Xbox live who thinks he's so funny when he's making some random internetlolcatremarks. I explained to you this, but you clearly lacked english to understand, since you keep quoting your own words. Sanctions do not work overnight. It takes years. If Russia suddenly cut my country's gas, I wouldnt feel its effects for about a year. Just because I dont feel it, doesnt mean theres not going to be problems.

Also the sanctions havent even been fully applied yet, quite many Western countries are still importing their foods to Russia. So yea..... Even when they are fully applied, it takes a long time for common person to start sensing the effects. Seriuslly Vovka, how can you be this dumb? Think logically. Id understand, if you said that they arent gonna work. That is possible yes. But going all "ahuehue they arent working right now at this very moment, prices still all same, suck it west!" Is quite ignorant and dumb, considering that the bans havent even fully started yet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 12, 2014, 04:57:10 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 04:54:37 pm
yea yea I know, I`m an uneducated prick who supports Putler.

Sorry guys that I aint a living prodigy who supports the Ukranians, like you guys.

The first and only step to wisdom is admitting one has things to learn.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on August 12, 2014, 05:05:26 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 12, 2014, 04:57:10 pm
The first and only step to wisdom is admitting one has things to learn.

how cliche.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2014, 05:10:08 pm
On the whole prices thing, it's simple;

Supply & Demand.

To an extent there is still both.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 12, 2014, 05:13:35 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 05:05:26 pm
how cliche.

That's beside the point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2014, 05:14:25 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 05:05:26 pm
how cliche.

Just as cliché as right wingers supporting russians :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 12, 2014, 05:14:59 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 04:56:03 pm
How was I exactly mad? You are turning into a bad troll man. I figured you for a good one, but you are kinda like those 13 year olds in Xbox live who thinks he's so funny when he's making some random internetlolcatremarks. I explained to you this, but you clearly lacked english to understand, since you keep quoting your own words. Sanctions do not work overnight. It takes years. If Russia suddenly cut my country's gas, I wouldnt feel its effects for about a year. Just because I dont feel it, doesnt mean theres not going to be problems.

Also the sanctions havent even been fully applied yet, quite many Western countries are still importing their foods to Russia. So yea..... Even when they are fully applied, it takes a long time for common person to start sensing the effects. Seriuslly Vovka, how can you be this dumb? Think logically. Id understand, if you said that they arent gonna work. That is possible yes. But going all "ahuehue they arent working right now at this very moment, prices still all same, suck it west!" Is quite ignorant and dumb, considering that the bans havent even fully started yet.

All that wall-o-text just for trolling about "my country is bestest than yours"  :P No need to think farther than that...

Economical sanctions are going to be shitter with time passing indeed. Dont bet on people pleading publically to lift the blocus, national pride is embedded in all of us at birth!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 12, 2014, 05:31:18 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 07:28:07 am
National symbol of Russia is  flag. Never heard that this was a symbol of russion nationalism. As I know it  become so for others just when South East of Ukraine started to separate, but before it that was OK. Where it was used against fascism where there never was? Video is before maidan actions
Never heard of it? I congratulate you on your sheltered life. It has been one for years, if not decades, in countries bordering Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 12, 2014, 05:37:09 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 12, 2014, 05:14:59 pm
Dont bet on people pleading publically to lift the blocus, national pride is embedded in all of us at birth!

I'm inclined to believe not all Russians are that stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 05:38:18 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 12, 2014, 05:14:59 pm
All that wall-o-text just for trolling about "my country is bestest than yours"  :P No need to think farther than that...

Economical sanctions are going to be shitter with time passing indeed. Dont bet on people pleading publically to lift the blocus, national pride is embedded in all of us at birth!

First of all the post wasnt directed at you, so you didnt have to read shit. Secondly, where in the bloody hell did you read out "my country is bestest than yours" point?  Wtf man? That wasnt even close to the point. I just gave an example in a form of my country, that sanctions take time, thats it. That part got you confused or what? I dont know how it was even possible to read out the "my country bestest" part.....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on August 12, 2014, 05:52:31 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 12, 2014, 05:14:25 pm
Just as cliché as right wingers supporting russians :|

far right please  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 12, 2014, 06:14:13 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 05:38:18 pm
First of all the post wasnt directed at you, so you didnt have to read shit. Secondly, where in the bloody hell did you read out "my country is bestest than yours" point?  Wtf man? That wasnt even close to the point. I just gave an example in a form of my country, that sanctions take time, thats it. That part got you confused or what? I dont know how it was even possible to read out the "my country bestest" part.....

You're taking this too seriously, lay off a bit, is all I said. You're using serious rhetoric to counter pranks.

I have not said you have been recently playing the "my country is bestest" game. Almost everyone here did at one point, but I'm not going to check if you did too  :mrgreen: when guys speaks of the economical sanctions between west-east, saying it didnt hurt one bit, you're going to suffer famine... etc etc... It should go above your head this far in the thread.

I'm saying that mainly to show its better to either play this prank game together without trying to be mean, or ignore the issue and talk of more serious matters, since it never ends in one side saying "ok you won, I'm suffering from economical sanctions..."  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 12, 2014, 06:36:27 pm
I love a good prank. Like when Nicko posts some wierd shit. Thats gold. What Vovka just did was quote me and make some lameass lolcatjoke that didnt even make any sense. How would you like it if I took your posts and just say "yo mama is fat" as some sort of reply. Thats basically how lame Vovka was just now. If you gonna troll, than do it right.

I dont think they are gonna starve, doubt that anyone thinks that tbh. Small amount of people are gonna feel a bit sad for not getting some goods, but I doubt there will be anything catastrophic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 12, 2014, 07:52:38 pm
The prices begin to rise when a certain amount of people think they will rise. Then they can buy stuff for 10 today and sell for 20 tomorrow, and thus the hoarding begins.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 07:58:43 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 12, 2014, 07:52:38 pm
The prices begin to rise when a certain amount of people think they will rise. Then they can buy stuff for 10 today and sell for 20 tomorrow, and thus the hoarding begins.
People in Russia not that smart, they stop to buy products in the market and start to rise it in the garden)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 07:59:30 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 04:49:03 pm
<...>
Russia never killed children nor they bombed UN shelters,yet Putin is being called Putler, while at the same time the Jews keep on murdering kids and bombing UN shelters and the EU/USA do nothing to hurt the Jews..
<...>

Ignorance is bliss.

Read up on second war ion Chechnya and who at the top of chain of command at the time, THEN come back explaining that russia never killed children. UN shelters... IDK, there were none probably, but in general Grozno was almost leveled, once russians were "done", I would dare to claim that everything available in the city was included as a target.

Israel being dickish in one case does not somehow justify putler being ... well... putler in another case.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 08:12:39 pm
Bible 1 Peter 2:18-19
"Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God."
That's why we love our government, because we all believers. And who is not, he doesn't fear God

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 12, 2014, 08:23:54 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 04:49:03 pm
You gotta love how the EU and the USA work.   :lol:

Russia never killed children nor they bombed UN shelters,yet Putin is being called Putler, while at the same time the Jews keep on murdering kids and bombing UN shelters and the EU/USA do nothing to hurt the Jews..


OH SORRY, I FORGOT, USA SOLD SOME DRONES/MISSILES TO THE JEWS  :lol:


If I supported Russia 10 yesterday, I now support her 100, Russia vs All.


Such a shame that modern society ended up being a zionist muppet..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 12, 2014, 09:24:25 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 04:54:37 pm
yea yea I know, I`m an uneducated prick who supports Putler.

Sorry guys that I aint a living prodigy who supports the Ukranians, like you guys.

And...you have a real boner vis a vis Jewish people.  This is a thread about the Ukraine, not Israel and Hamas.  If you are going to go off topic why don't you rage about ISIS killing far more people in Syria and Iraq than Israel has killed Palestinians recently or the mass killing in Sudan, and Chad etc, etc?

And since you know you're uneducated why not do as someone suggested and see what the man you support so much did in Chechnya and how he handles the rescue of his own citizens and children from theaters and schools.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 12, 2014, 09:25:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 07:58:43 pm
People in Russia not that smart, they stop to buy products in the market and start to rise it in the garden)

Yeah, putler imprisoned or exiled all the smart ones.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on August 12, 2014, 10:19:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 12, 2014, 07:59:30 pm
Ignorance is bliss.

Read up on second war ion Chechnya and who at the top of chain of command at the time, THEN come back explaining that russia never killed children. UN shelters... IDK, there were none probably, but in general Grozno was almost leveled, once russians were "done", I would dare to claim that everything available in the city was included as a target.

Israel being dickish in one case does not somehow justify putler being ... well... putler in another case.

That happened 20 years ago, but I`m pretty sure that if we run back on the Chechen-Russian conflict we can see that the Chechens aint bastions of chivalry aswell. Also dont forget the 2004 school incident.

Putin became the head of Russia in 2000, so actually blaming him and calling him Putler for the killings against the Jihadist Chechens is retarded, but then again if someone goes back and read your posts one by one, can tell that youre a heavy anti Russian retard , with no openings for discussion and logical arguements.



Quote from: Turkhammer on August 12, 2014, 09:24:25 pm
And...you have a real boner vis a vis Jewish people.  This is a thread about the Ukraine, not Israel and Hamas.  If you are going to go off topic why don't you rage about ISIS killing far more people in Syria and Iraq than Israel has killed Palestinians recently or the mass killing in Sudan, and Chad etc, etc?

And since you know you're uneducated why not do as someone suggested and see what the man you support so much did in Chechnya and how he handles the rescue of his own citizens and children from theaters and schools.


Yeah, that because I dont like the Zionists, never did and never will, thats my problem.


The uneducated part was sarcastic, also nice one puting the blame on Putin for the 2004 instead of the muslim lowlife savages.

Sums up your stupidity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 10:40:08 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 12, 2014, 09:25:33 pm
Yeah, putler imprisoned or exiled all the smart ones.
For sure you would be free in our country :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 12, 2014, 11:11:05 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 10:19:35 pm
The uneducated part was sarcastic
It's funny, how you still occasionally claim to have any knowledge whatsoever of this conflict, when you've proved over and over again of not even being able to tell the two sides apart, lmao.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on August 12, 2014, 11:28:55 pm
which conflict?

The Ukraine V Pro Russian one, or the Chechen V Russia?


Besides, I don`t know whats all this fuss is about, Crimea was always Russian.

Most of the anti Russians here, hate Russia because they come from a country that suffered from them, which is quitte understandable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2014, 11:39:36 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 11:28:55 pm
Most of the anti Russians here, hate Russia because they come from a country that suffered from them, which is quitte understandable.

Consequently, the people supporting the russians and worshipping Putin are either russians themselves,
or have not experienced or never got the "russian treatment"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 12:07:00 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 10:19:35 pm
That happened 20 years ago, but I`m pretty sure that if we run back on the Chechen-Russian conflict we can see that the Chechens aint bastions of chivalry aswell. Also dont forget the 2004 school incident.

Putin became the head of Russia in 2000, so actually blaming him and calling him Putler for the killings against the Jihadist Chechens is retarded, but then again if someone goes back and read your posts one by one, can tell that youre a heavy anti Russian retard , with no openings for discussion and logical arguements.
OMG... really? Because it happened 20 years ago its somehow irrelevant?

"I`m pretty sure that if we run back on the Chechen-Russian Palestinian-Israeli conflict we can see that the Chechens Palestinians aint bastions of chivalry aswell. Also dont forget the 2004 school incident. <some random serious incident I CBA to find>".

I'm calling putler a putler because his reasons for war are the same as germany used pre WW2, don't make an ass of yourself and stop imagining what I said.

As to his involvement in war in chechnya - if you could be arsed to to BASIC research, at least in wikipedia... I'm not sure how one would call a leader of a nation using excessive military force against its own citizens to enact constitutional order, but I can bet the term (or maybe only an description? characterization?) would be equally applicable to a dickish Israeli leaders using excessive military force to quell unruly palestinians. Touche.
Quote
The Chechen conflict entered a new phase on 1 October 1999, when Russia's new Prime Minister Vladimir Putin declared the authority of Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov and his parliament illegitimate.[citation needed] At this time, Putin announced that Russian troops would initiate a land invasion but progress only as far as the Terek River, which cuts the northern third of Chechnya off from the rest of the republic. Putin's stated intention was to take control of Chechnya's northern plain and establish a cordon sanitaire against further Chechen aggression; however, later recalled that the cordon alone was "pointless and technically impossible," apparently because of Chechnya's rugged terrain. According to Russian accounts, Putin accelerated a plan for a major crackdown against Chechnya that had been drawn up months earlier.[68]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War#Russian_plans_for_the_war

Meanwhile in Ukraine - whats with the new censorship laws being enacted? Are they supposed to be temporary or just Ukraine's way of dealing with putlers media?
http://en.rsf.org/ukraine-ukrainian-parliament-approves-very-12-08-2014,46793.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 12:53:53 am
From wiki
Quote
The Russian apartment bombings were a series of explosions that hit four apartment blocks in the Russian cities of Buynaksk, Moscow, and Volgodonsk in September 1999, killing 293 people and injuring 651. The explosions occurred in Buynaksk on September 4, Moscow on September 9th and 14th, and Volgodonsk on September 16. Several other bombs were defused in Moscow at the time
because of that
Quote
The Chechen conflict entered a new phase on 1 October 1999, when Russia's new Prime Minister Vladimir Putin declared the authority of Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov and his parliament illegitimate.[citation needed] At this time, Putin announced that Russian troops would initiate a land invasion but progress only as far as the Terek River, which cuts the northern third of Chechnya off from the rest of the republic. Putin's stated intention was to take control of Chechnya's northern plain and establish a cordon sanitaire against further Chechen aggression; however, later recalled that the cordon alone was "pointless and technically impossible," apparently because of Chechnya's rugged terrain. According to Russian accounts, Putin accelerated a plan for a major crackdown against Chechnya that had been drawn up months earlier
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:01:58 am
Meanwhile in Ukraine..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1b0_1407877548

Meanwhile in Russia...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d29_1407874157

Enjoy Russiaphobes!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:03:33 am
Quote from: Christo on August 12, 2014, 11:39:36 pm
Consequently, the people supporting the russians and worshipping Putin are either russians themselves,
or have not experienced or never got the "russian treatment"

Both you and Panos make valid observations. As I mentioned previously, opinions formed largely through emotion are not balanced and are frequently irrational, unbalanced opinions.

Oh and in-case you didn't read the previous page...

Meanwhile in Ukraine.. All that Russian propaganda and all..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1b0_1407877548
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 13, 2014, 01:16:28 am
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on August 12, 2014, 11:28:55 pm
Most of the anti Russians here, hate Russia because they come from a country that suffered from them, which is quitte understandable.

What makes you think there are anti-Russians here? That's like arguing someone is anti-Turkish when all one is doing is criticizing Erdogan's government. Calling people pseudo-offensive names also isn't the point of this thread. There are plenty of serious reasons for opposing the current actions of the Russian Federation in Ukraine (as there is opposing Israel's continuous violation of the Geneva convention among others), and there also are plenty of reasons to criticize Putin's government for its interior policy, mostly when it comes to the rights of the press and the organization of the elections. It doesn't take more than two clicks on Amnesty International or any other human rights NGO to find consequent amounts of dirt on Russian authorities. The Russian population however, is mostly a victim of that state of affairs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 13, 2014, 01:17:17 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:01:58 am
Meanwhile in Ukraine..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1b0_1407877548

Meanwhile in Russia...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d29_1407874157

Enjoy Russiaphobes!
OMG two guys in the volunteer battalion have TATTOOS! END OF THE WORLD!

God you're retarded, Murmillus, truly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:25:39 am
Quote from: Xant on August 13, 2014, 01:17:17 am
OMG two guys in the volunteer battalion have TATTOOS! END OF THE WORLD!

God you're retarded, Murmillus, truly.

I'm retarded? Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment. After all, you're Xant, someone with his head so far up his own arse he runs circles around his own steaming shit rather than see any sense or admit when he's wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 13, 2014, 01:31:10 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:25:39 am
I'm retarded? Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment. After all, you're Xant, someone with his head so far up his own arse he runs circles around his own steaming shit rather than see any sense or admit when he's wrong.
Why would I "admit I'm wrong" when I'm not? That's just silly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:33:19 am
Quote from: Xant on August 13, 2014, 01:31:10 am
Why would I "admit I'm wrong" when I'm not? That's just silly.

Of course, in Xant world you're never wrong!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 13, 2014, 01:34:16 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:33:19 am
Of course, in Xant world you're never wrong!  :mrgreen:
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the whole world is mine, but thanks for the compliment, anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 03:28:01 am
Quote from: Xant on August 13, 2014, 01:17:17 am
OMG two guys in the volunteer battalion have TATTOOS! END OF THE WORLD!

God you're retarded, Murmillus, truly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-N azi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html
(Copy/Paste link and remove space between the N and azi, dumb chocolate chip bullshit)..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 13, 2014, 03:51:19 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 03:28:01 am
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-N azi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html
(Copy/Paste link and remove space between the N and azi, dumb chocolate chip bullshit)..
......... And?

I assume you're retarded enough to think that means anything. What, should they say "no, you're not allowed to die for us and kill our enemies because of your ideology"? That's retarded. Did I remember to mention you're retarded?

Quote
Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-chocolate chip cookies. “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister. “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 13, 2014, 05:26:43 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 13, 2014, 01:01:58 am
(click to show/hide)
Ye, seriuslly dude. Because of those 2 dudes tattoos the whole government and their entire cause is based on na zism? Seriuslly man, go to bed. I think you are the one whose face is so up his own asshole that hes making illogical connections here that originate from propaganda thats pretty much based on nothing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 07:43:27 am
Egypt will suply products to Russia now) Egypt is ready to close nearly a half of requirement in the agricultural products forbidden to import to Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 13, 2014, 07:47:13 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 07:43:27 am
Egypt will suply products to Russia now) Egypt is ready to close nearly a half of requirement in the agricultural products forbidden to import to Russia
Products from Egypt much more expensive
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 08:43:44 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 12:53:53 am
From wiki
because of that
Would it be right to formulate like this:
According to numerous proofs:
MH17 was shot down by rebels causing 298 innocent lives to be lost
Because of that:
separatists/terrorists should be instantly wiped out by Ukraine AND putler (since he has a good track record of dealing with such BS in russia, no?)
</irony>

Based on current russian treatment of separatists I see double standards, do you?

P.S. I'm not even going to go into the details of WHY the bombings happened and how this is almost a complete mirror of current Ukraine situation, because the double standards would be just TOO HARD to bear ... or beer... and not the bear that putler is riding either.</irony>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 08:50:06 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 08:43:44 am
Would it be right to formulate like this:
According to numerous proofs:
MH17 was shot down by rebels causing 298 innocent lives to be lost
Because of that:
separatists/terrorists should be instantly wiped out by Ukraine AND putler (since he has a good track record of dealing with such BS in russia, no?)

Somehow I see double standards, do you?

P.S. I'm not even going to go into the details of WHY the bombings happened and how this is almost a complete mirror of current Ukraine situation, because the double standards would be just TOO HARD to bear ... or beer... and not the bear that putler is riding either.
What an amazing logic
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 09:07:47 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 08:50:06 am
What an amazing logic
So you basically agree with the wiping out of Ukraine separatists/terrorists, as you agree with the need to wipe out Chechen terrorists/separatists?

Or the logic is simply to hard? :)

P.S. Sorry, the "irony voice" is hard to transmit via writing... I'll add </irony> tags where applicable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:12:04 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 09:07:47 am
So you basically agree with the wiping out of Ukraine separatists/terrorists, as you agree with the need to wipe out Chechen terrorists/separatists?

Or the logic is simply to hard? :)

P.S. Sorry, the "irony voice" is hard to transmit via writing... I'll add </irony> tags where applicable.
Did you see separatists bombing civil houses?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 09:16:03 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:12:04 am
Did you see separatists bombing civil houses?
Which separatists?</irony>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nordwolf on August 13, 2014, 09:27:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:12:04 am
Did you see separatists bombing civil houses?
yes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:50:37 am
Quote from: Nordwolf on August 13, 2014, 09:27:58 am
yes
Show me then
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 10:06:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:50:37 am
Show me then
Let me interpret USE DIVINATION to outline the further "discussion":

Nordwolf : here you go links.
DonNicko : They are pro Ukraine propaganda, I don't believe them, because putlers media tells entirely different thing.
Nordwolf : Whatever.
<who is brainwashed discussion ensues>

I would like an answer to my question though - which separatists did you mean DonNicko?

Also, to keep this on topic:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/13/ukraine-crisis-border-idUSL6N0QH1XB20140813
putlers media still denies this or went into next phase and now is silently letting this pass as "normal friendly state behavior" not worthy of air time?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 13, 2014, 10:34:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 10:06:58 am
[...]
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/13/ukraine-crisis-border-idUSL6N0QH1XB20140813
putlers media still denies this or went into next phase and now is silently letting this pass as "normal friendly state behavior" not worthy of air time?
All lies and slander... Russia would never get involved in a conflict of a foreign sovereign nation.
Also, obviously just border guards doing some harmless training and there ofc those track marks are from agriculture machinery. Everything else simply doesn't make sense.
Any implication suggesting otherwise is obviously just western propaganda to give Russia a bad name.
Kuujis, you're also brain washed and a damn fascist for posting this link.
Not to mention that Reuters is known for being a media tool of the US and their NWO government puppets.

It's so clear and obvious that I can't understand that you do not see through it!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 10:42:24 am
Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2014, 10:34:56 am
All lies and slander... Russia would never get involved in a conflict of a foreign sovereign nation.
Also, obviously just border guards doing some harmless training and there ofc those track marks are from agriculture machinery. Everything else simply doesn't make sense.
Any implication suggesting otherwise is obviously just western propaganda to give Russia a bad name.
Kuujis, you're also brain washed and a damn fascist for posting this link.
Not to mention that Reuters is known for being a media tool of the US and their NWO government puppets.

It's so clear and obvious that I can't understand that you do not see through it!  :rolleyes:
Do you know a bush I could hide under? :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 13, 2014, 10:45:44 am
What even are those journalists, expecting border patrols to have flags or insignia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 13, 2014, 11:32:24 am
In Russia border controls guards. Sooo obvious that they won't wear insignias then!

Think people, just THINK!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 03:39:53 pm
Meanwhile in russia - our local news site reports that the column has split into two and that there are reports of people being in the trucks instead of humanitarian aid.

Meanwhile in OTHER parts of russia: http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2014/08/window-on-eurasia-siberian.html, not sure how much truth in this, as the source is a blog... but even if half-truth - I would start a flag/ribbon company, to supply each region with their own memorabilia  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 13, 2014, 04:00:36 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 03:39:53 pm
Meanwhile in russia - our local news site reports that the column has split into two and that there are reports of people being in the trucks instead of humanitarian aid.

Meanwhile in OTHER parts of russia: http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2014/08/window-on-eurasia-siberian.html, not sure how much truth in this, as the source is a blog... but even if half-truth - I would start a flag/ribbon company, to supply each region with their own memorabilia  :rolleyes:
I heard the food poisoned Ebola and blankets and warm clothes from plague areas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 13, 2014, 04:27:21 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 12, 2014, 10:40:08 pm
For sure you would be free in our country :lol:

No danger of that.  I'm so smart, I know which countries to avoid. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 13, 2014, 04:55:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 13, 2014, 03:39:53 pm
Meanwhile in russia - our local news site reports that the column has split into two and that there are reports of people being in the trucks instead of humanitarian aid.

Meanwhile in OTHER parts of russia: http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2014/08/window-on-eurasia-siberian.html, not sure how much truth in this, as the source is a blog... but even if half-truth - I would start a flag/ribbon company, to supply each region with their own memorabilia  :rolleyes:
more source for u add in favorite http://www.ostro.org/general/society/news/452305/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 13, 2014, 08:38:04 pm
Quote from: Nordwolf on August 13, 2014, 09:27:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:12:04 am
Did you see separatists bombing civil houses?
yes
no

I win the debate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 13, 2014, 08:43:49 pm
can you proof it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 13, 2014, 08:57:28 pm
Pretty sure the separatists have killed civilians themselves. If they are dumb enough to shoot down a civilian airplane, admit it and than later accuse the Ukrainian military for it and basically bribe local old ladies as witnesses of it, sure as hell they caused some shit too. Again noone cant prove a damn thing. Every civilian the separatists kill by accident they can just easly blame Kiev for.

Honestly thou, why would Ukrainian army bomb civilians on purpose? I mean theres no need for it. The russian explanation "cuz they are na zis" isnt sufficent. The separatists have much more reason to murder civilians on purpose. Think about it. If they were some twisted desperate sick mofos, it be pretty easy to massacre civilians and blame it on the government. Amist the chaos it would work quite well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:18:14 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 13, 2014, 08:57:28 pm
Pretty sure the separatists have killed civilians themselves. If they are dumb enough to shoot down a civilian airplane, admit it and than later accuse the Ukrainian military for it and basically bribe local old ladies as witnesses of it, sure as hell they caused some shit too. Again noone cant prove a damn thing. Every civilian the separatists kill by accident they can just easly blame Kiev for.

Honestly thou, why would Ukrainian army bomb civilians on purpose? I mean theres no need for it. The russian explanation "cuz they are na zis" isnt sufficent. The separatists have much more reason to murder civilians on purpose. Think about it. If they were some twisted desperate sick mofos, it be pretty easy to massacre civilians and blame it on the government. Amist the chaos it would work quite well.
Tibe again using words such as pretty sure and so on. In 2001 Ukranian army shot the commercial plane. All people died. Are they  dumb enough to shoot down a civilian airplane? Tradegy in Odessa maybe you remember it. Same people from right sector now in the army. Can they shoot russians?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 13, 2014, 09:40:44 pm
there are russians in the ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on August 13, 2014, 09:43:16 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 13, 2014, 09:40:44 pm
there are russians in the ukraine?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 10:14:27 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 13, 2014, 09:40:44 pm
there are russians in the ukraine?
A lot of) Especially on the East and Crimea
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 13, 2014, 11:41:23 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 13, 2014, 09:40:44 pm
there are russians in the ukraine?

According to wikipedia, there is 17.3% of the population which are Russians  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 14, 2014, 08:28:20 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 09:18:14 pm
Tibe again using words such as pretty sure and so on. In 2001 Ukranian army shot the commercial plane. All people died. Are they  dumb enough to shoot down a civilian airplane? Tradegy in Odessa maybe you remember it. Same people from right sector now in the army. Can they shoot russians?

Well yea, the population of Donetsk is around millions and there are thousands of separatists. Its chaos, they are almost losing, they are desperate and angry. Tell me honestly that there isnt a possibility that they killed some civilians themselves and blamed government forces for it? It is very likely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 08:37:03 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 14, 2014, 08:28:20 am
Well yea, the population of Donetsk is around millions and there are thousands of separatists. Its chaos, they are almost losing, they are desperate and angry. Tell me honestly that there isnt a possibility that they killed some civilians themselves and blamed government forces for it? It is very likely.
I can't say honestly, it is you are pretty sure, not  me. I would give you videos where people talk about bombings, but they are on russian language. It is interesting how people start to believe that separatists bomb civilians so easily. Any brainwash?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 14, 2014, 08:47:01 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 08:37:03 am
I can't say honestly, it is you are pretty sure, not  me.
How come you are so sure, that Ukrainian army want a PR disaster on their hands and actually decided to do this... intentional civilian house bombing, YET - you are not sure about separatists playing this bloody PR game, since they have nothing to lose (i.e. they already lost IMO, barring putlers invasion)?

I can understand (yet never approve or justify) of shelling separatist possitions in civilian neighborhoods, but this is the warzone separatists choose. General rule of thumb for civilians - if you see a fighter (of ANY side), move away from him, whichever side he is on, lest you might become unfortunate bystander victim or worse - might be treated as an enemy combatant. This was true for all conflicts, this is true for Ukraines fight agains russian insurgency.

And I would stress again - IF this shelling was on the scale putlers media portrays it - we would be seeing civilian casualties in HUNDREDS and daily, like it was in chechnya, not in single digits like it (unfortunately) is happening currently.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 14, 2014, 10:12:38 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 08:37:03 am
I can't say honestly, it is you are pretty sure, not  me. I would give you videos where people talk about bombings, but they are on russian language. It is interesting how people start to believe that separatists bomb civilians so easily. Any brainwash?

The problem here is that we dont know. And the civilians dont know and both sides dont really know. They dont know who bombed what and where. Im just saying it is very easy to blame the army for the deaths of civilians. And yes I am very sure that the separatists killed civilians too. Its kinda wierd to think that they didnt. I mean really Nicko. Think about it. The separatist shoot a lot of bullets and bombs aswell, not only Kievs forces. It is very hard to belive they had such good aim that they missed every civilian around. Now okay, it is harder to belive the rebels shot them in purpose, but by accident, it's very likely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 14, 2014, 12:05:19 pm
Tiberius both sides are using the same arguments but as ukrainian i can be sure in one thing - you cannot be sure in anything so far until you wont see it with your own eyes. you are from another country who dont really know not only russian TV but even ukrainian one.
i am sure - none of us are competent enough. you can be on someones side but as far as i can get personally you are kinda against russia than on ukrainian side. this point is not really constructive.
and one thing about TV none of you shouldnt forget
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


btw i would like to remind one thing what i said in this topic a while ago.
with your support to maydan you had to expect everything how can it be ended. the words about civilian war was in that times... i guess none of you feel even little sorry for being guilty of this war at some point(which still does exist).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 14, 2014, 01:11:13 pm
I have no idea what you just said
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 14, 2014, 02:06:15 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 14, 2014, 02:14:25 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 14, 2014, 08:28:20 am
Well yea, the population of Donetsk is around millions and there are thousands of separatists. Its chaos, they are almost losing, they are desperate and angry. Tell me honestly that there isnt a possibility that they killed some civilians themselves and blamed government forces for it? It is very likely.

Now you sound just like me.


But what DonNicko tried to show was the following :

- civil wars in Russian Federation included people planting bombs/taking hostages/assassinating to cause russian casualties, in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Russian Federation, as a tool of war.
(click to show/hide)
- civil war in Ukraine does not.

It doesnt nullify your point Tibe, because lets be honest, civilians have been killed in the midst of all the fighting, and some assassinated or at least summarily executed (in the juridiction of the LNR and the DNR); but there has been no terrorist attacks in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Ukrainian government, else it would have been reported actively by pro-Kiev to finally have a reason to call the insurgency members terrorists.

At the moment, it is clear that the majority of the casualties are done conventionally through military might and around the concerned war zones.
It doesnt rule out murder charges in several circumstances that has been reported in this thread, but it does show that the insurgents are not terrorists and that on this point there is no comparison with the civil wars in Russia.

I think we can all agree to this, and I think that it was what DonNicko wanted to say.



On a side note, if the Ukrainian civil war went on for years, as the Russian civil wars did, there is an increasing probability that a part of the insurgency will forgo conventional warfare for guerilla warfare and then terrorist attacks, so the argument we have might be overruled with time passing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 14, 2014, 02:25:38 pm
How silly, Butan.

Separatists are occupying Ukrainian cities with military force from the viewpoint of Kiev... So, yea, and they kinda caused civilian casualties by executing certain criminals.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 14, 2014, 03:27:01 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 14, 2014, 02:14:25 pm
<...>
But what DonNicko tried to show was the following :

- civil wars in Russian Federation included people planting bombs/taking hostages/assassinating to cause russian casualties, in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Russian Federation, as a tool of war.
(click to show/hide)
- civil war in Ukraine does not.
<...>
At the moment, it is clear that the majority of the casualties are done conventionally through military might and around the concerned war zones.
It doesnt rule out murder charges in several circumstances that has been reported in this thread, but it does show that the insurgents are not terrorists and that on this point there is no comparison with the civil wars in Russia.
Why on earth does it matter whether there were terrorists attacks "not in war zone"? Comparatively - if we are talking about civil war in russia, specifically chechnya - majority of  casualties were inflicted via military might in the very chechnya itself. This artificial attempt to somehow justify one separatist movement in Ukraine and overlook another in russia itself as "pure and simple terrorism" is laughable at best, and insincere at worst.
In addition to that - IF you could be arsed to read up - first two terrorist attacks in russia were carried out within 100km of chechnya, which unfortunatly IS area of conflict, when speaking of guerrilla action. FURTHER MORE - it could be argued, that russian actions were the cause of the rise of terrorism, not the other way around (and in any way - it is NOT something I condone, justify or support).

Fast forward 6 months, when russia starts sending trained suicide slav-nation-fanatics to Ukraine to cause similar acts - will you change your mind? (and unfortunately - barring open warfare by russia - this is the only logical outcome of current situation IMO). Were the chechens separatists before their violence spilled out of Chechnya? Was their treatment different from how Ukraine treats their separatist-terrorists? Should it have been different?
I already tried to ask DonNicko about it - he does not know the answer or does not want to answer, so its up in the air... Any other in-the-know russians care to explain maybe?

Quote from: Butan on August 14, 2014, 02:14:25 pm
I think we can all agree to this<...>
No, I do not agree with what you said, its a cheap construct, which tries to marginalize different oppinion, don't use it. You can agree with whoever you want, but talk for yourself.
What DonNicko wanted to say - I have no clue. He is not able to answer simple questions, so its a bit moot point to try to understand or agree with him. What I really think is that he is becoming a bit disillusioned about the actions of his country in another neighboring ex-friendly slav country and this realization starts to sink in and he becomes "not so sure". Or maybe I hope, that this is happening... naive me  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 14, 2014, 03:30:24 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 14, 2014, 02:14:25 pm
Now you sound just like me.


But what DonNicko tried to show was the following :

- civil wars in Russian Federation included people planting bombs/taking hostages/assassinating to cause russian casualties, in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Russian Federation, as a tool of war.
(click to show/hide)
- civil war in Ukraine does not.

It doesnt nullify your point Tibe, because lets be honest, civilians have been killed in the midst of all the fighting, and some assassinated or at least summarily executed (in the juridiction of the LNR and the DNR); but there has been no terrorist attacks in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Ukrainian government, else it would have been reported actively by pro-Kiev to finally have a reason to call the insurgency members terrorists.

At the moment, it is clear that the majority of the casualties are done conventionally through military might and around the concerned war zones.
It doesnt rule out murder charges in several circumstances that has been reported in this thread, but it does show that the insurgents are not terrorists and that on this point there is no comparison with the civil wars in Russia.

I think we can all agree to this, and I think that it was what DonNicko wanted to say.



On a side note, if the Ukrainian civil war went on for years, as the Russian civil wars did, there is an increasing probability that a part of the insurgency will forgo conventional warfare for guerilla warfare and then terrorist attacks, so the argument we have might be overruled with time passing.

Actually, if the LNR and DNR people started behaving like actual terrorists then they might have a chance as being seen as legitimate by somebody on the planet. The real LNR and DNR guys are not terrorists because they aren't willing to give up their lives for an ideological cause. It's all business, there's no despair. It takes a very desperate and very confident man to blow himself up. The fact that they are not doing that shows that they are getting massive logistical and military support and also that this conflict is very far from a last resort option for those fighting it, overwhelmingly Russian citizens living in Russia. When this thing is over the survivors will pack their things and go back home.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 14, 2014, 03:55:56 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 13, 2014, 11:41:23 pm
According to wikipedia, there is 17.3% of the population which are Russians  :D

naa, that are ukrainian russians aka citizens not russian russians aka mercenaries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 14, 2014, 04:45:57 pm
Russians are fighting there. A russian friend of mine was close to the border in July, and the first person he met on the bus was a russian guy going to the war in Ukraine..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 05:16:29 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 14, 2014, 03:27:01 pm
Were the chechens separatists before their violence spilled out of Chechnya?
I really don't know is there any sense to speak with Kuujis but I will try, I think you don't know nothing about Chechnya, maybe a little that you read in wiki. First of all I blame president Eltsin that he sent people on that war in Chechen. I think that he was a clown. Second Dudaev took by force state building and killed chairman of the Grozny City Council Vitaly Kutsenko in 1991, but war didn't begin. Not the same revolution but was in Kiev. Russia got out all military forces from Chechnya. Chechnya become independent and were so from 1991 to 1994.
In 1992 — 1993 in the territory of Chechnya over 600 premeditated murders were committed. During 1993 on the Grozny office of the North Caucasian railroad about 4 thousand vagons and containers for the sum of 11,5 billion rubles underwent armed attack of 559 trains with full or partial plunder. In 8 months 1994 120 armed attacks as a result of which 1156 vagons and 527 containers are plundered. Losses made more than 11 billion rubles. In 1992 — 1994 as a result of armed attacks 26 railroad workers were killed. Current situation compelled the government of Russia to make the decision on the termination of movement on the territory of Chechnya since October, 1994. Since 1992 it was stolen and 1790 people were illegally kept in Chechnya. In Chechnya from 1991 to 1999 it was killed more than 21 thousand Russians (apart from victims during military operations), it is taken more than 100 thousand apartments and the houses belonging to representatives of the non Chechen ethnoses, more than 46 thousand people were actually turned into slaves. They selected property and passports with the connivance of the republican and federal authorities. And a lot of things were happened. 1994-1996 Eltsin send russian forces in Chechnya. then in 1996 they made the peace. But then some bombs and so on. Population in Russia were in panic and Putin were under pressure to stop all that terrorists, so second chechen war began. And now Chechnya one of the richest region.
So were Chechens separatists, yes, because they wanted to separate. So were they terrorists? yes, they killed a lot of people and robbed many trains.

Quote
What DonNicko wanted to say - I have no clue. He is not able to answer simple questions, so its a bit moot point to try to understand or agree with him. What I really think is that he is becoming a bit disillusioned about the actions of his country in another neighboring ex-friendly slav country and this realization starts to sink in and he becomes "not so sure". Or maybe I hope, that this is happening... naive me  :rolleyes:
Oh yes I don't able to answer simple question. Lol. When I say I don't know it means I don't know, when I say there is no proof, it means there is no proof. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 14, 2014, 05:49:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 13, 2014, 10:14:27 pm
A lot of) Especially on the East and Crimea

 
Quote from: Butan on August 13, 2014, 11:41:23 pm
According to wikipedia, there is 17.3% of the population which are Russians  :D



So they were double agents or Russian tourists all along?  If they are Russian why are they living permanently in Ukraine?  What is their nationality, Ukrainian or Russian?  If they wish to be Russian why don't they move to Russia instead of moving Russia to themselves? 

Germany used the same logic when it moved into neighboring countries.  It said it was protecting ethnic Germans.  Germany was roundly and correctly denounced for doing that.
It what essential way do Russian actions and justifications differ from what Germany did in the 1930s?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 06:32:55 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 14, 2014, 05:49:19 pm
So they were double agents or Russian tourists all along?  If they are Russian why are they living permanently in Ukraine?  What is their nationality, Ukrainian or Russian?  If they wish to be Russian why don't they move to Russia instead of moving Russia to themselves? 

Germany used the same logic when it moved into neighboring countries.  It said it was protecting ethnic Germans.  Germany was roundly and correctly denounced for doing that.
It what essential way do Russian actions and justifications differ from what Germany did in the 1930s?
OMG, maybe you don't know but Ukraine was a part of USSR. That territories that separatists are controlling now were presented to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922, Crimea were presented in 1954, but that was united country, and a lot of people on that territories are russians, but less then half. Where they should to move if that territories are their home?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 14, 2014, 08:36:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 05:16:29 pm
I really don't know is there any sense to speak with Kuujis but I will try, I think you don't know nothing about Chechnya, maybe a little that you read in wiki. First of all I blame president Eltsin that he sent people on that war in Chechen. I think that he was a clown. Second Dudaev took by force state building and killed chairman of the Grozny City Council Vitaly Kutsenko in 1991, but war didn't begin. Not the same revolution but was in Kiev. Russia got out all military forces from Chechnya. Chechnya become independent and were so from 1991 to 1994.
In 1992 — 1993 in the territory of Chechnya over 600 premeditated murders were committed. During 1993 on the Grozny office of the North Caucasian railroad about 4 thousand vagons and containers for the sum of 11,5 billion rubles underwent armed attack of 559 trains with full or partial plunder. In 8 months 1994 120 armed attacks as a result of which 1156 vagons and 527 containers are plundered. Losses made more than 11 billion rubles. In 1992 — 1994 as a result of armed attacks 26 railroad workers were killed. Current situation compelled the government of Russia to make the decision on the termination of movement on the territory of Chechnya since October, 1994. Since 1992 it was stolen and 1790 people were illegally kept in Chechnya. In Chechnya from 1991 to 1999 it was killed more than 21 thousand Russians (apart from victims during military operations), it is taken more than 100 thousand apartments and the houses belonging to representatives of the non Chechen ethnoses, more than 46 thousand people were actually turned into slaves. They selected property and passports with the connivance of the republican and federal authorities. And a lot of things were happened. 1994-1996 Eltsin send russian forces in Chechnya. then in 1996 they made the peace. But then some bombs and so on. Population in Russia were in panic and Putin were under pressure to stop all that terrorists, so second chechen war began. And now Chechnya one of the richest region.
So were Chechens separatists, yes, because they wanted to separate. So were they terrorists? yes, they killed a lot of people and robbed many trains.
Oh yes I don't able to answer simple question. Lol. When I say I don't know it means I don't know, when I say there is no proof, it means there is no proof.
Good, we are getting somewhere. Sources?

Lets put it this way:
In 2014 bunch of armed thugs started causing general mayhem in eastern ukraine, killing several, kidnapping others, basically - installing their own "government" at a point of a gun and openly declaring their wish to join neighboring country, despite the fact, that they were minority in those regions (albeit - supported by russia, thus better organized and armed). After failed attempts to negotiate - open hostilities break out. Ukraine new president sends in troops en-masse and the civil war begins.

So you cite 11 billion roubles of losses (care to translate to dollars?) and 26 railroad people dead + 1790 people kidnaped (assuming that is what "stolen" means) + general unrest and infighting as a "casus belli" for Yaltcin to invade the independent Chechnya, fair enough. 21k russians killed till 1999, i.e. including during the first war - that is the outcome of russian meddling in Chechnya, from what I gather, not the cause + given russian war crimes list on the very wiki in the first chechen war - I would lay a significant part of the casualties on the very russian army you try to justify. Given that russians were participating in the internal conflict between opposing factions - I don't really see how it could have ended otherwise, but I digress - general mayhem in a neighboring country is... oups - something russia likes to cause :D greaat... so, given such a cause for starting the wipeout of terrorists - lets see Ukraine case.

What if Ukraine cited their property being stolen (somehow I believe its MORE than those vagons) and its citizens being terrorized into some new quazi-independent state + general mayhem + refusal to negotiate + evident interference by russia + a serious likelyhood of Crimean scenario with numerous green-men (who then turned out to be russian special forces) repeating. Do you find this an insufficient cause for dealing with terrorists-separatists the hard way? + comparatively, given the amount of civilians in conflict zone and numbers of casualties - these military actions are mild and well restrained, instead of russian "throw cannon fodder in and see what happens" way.

So... lets see - one is legitimate, another is not? Ofcourse it is better to avoid fighting, but its not like Ukraine did not try to negotiate first and was not offering amnesty, autonomy and a further discussion. Instead - they got called natzzzzeeeeessss and sent away "because we are russia and we will be joining it soon and they will support us". +add the whole propaganda BS by putler media. I would say Ukraine had MORE than enough casus belli to defend itself, while russian possition in this case is mind-boggling given that THEY stirred this shit up and coupled with eighty-fucking-seven percent support for great-leader-putler.

At least you will skip some sessions of eating sprats along this path...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 09:26:58 pm
My opinion is that Chechen war is greatest fault in new russian history. I know that some russian soldiers did there with chechen women. And my opinion that president wouldn't send troops to Chechnya. As my opinion that Kiev made mistake to send troops to the East. They could make it politically. I don't know about second chechen war, because main aim was to destroy terrorists, maybe the same as Israel is doing now. I really cant understand, why you can't undestand my position. Maybe you are too offended by russians or me, sorry, I can't do anything, I just blame all warcrimes and murders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 14, 2014, 09:35:12 pm
Have you guys heard about the convoy?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 14, 2014, 09:36:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 06:32:55 pm
OMG, maybe you don't know but Ukraine was a part of USSR. That territories that separatists are controlling now were presented to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922, Crimea were presented in 1954, but that was united country, and a lot of people on that territories are russians, but less then half. Where they should to move if that territories are their home?
That's nearly 100 years ago - get fucking over it. Either be Ukrainian or piss off if you don't like it. Pretty sure nobody would hold them back if they want to be Russian so badly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 14, 2014, 09:37:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 09:26:58 pm
My opinion is that Chechen war is greatest fault in new russian history. I know that some russian soldiers did there with chechen women. And my opinion that president wouldn't send troops to Chechnya. As my opinion that Kiev made mistake to send troops to the East. They could make it politically. I don't know about second chechen war, because main aim was to destroy terrorists, maybe the same as Israel is doing now. I really cant understand, why you can't undestand my position. Maybe you are too offended by russians or me, sorry, I can't do anything, I just blame all warcrimes and murders.

So first war was bad (I agree), second was okay-ish (IMO - it was an extension of the first and more of a cementing of putlers power to rule) and Ukrainians refusing to give up two more regions of their country to little-green-men is not ok? Not even "okay-is"? And don't tell me Ukraine leadership did not try diplomacy first, better tell me why it failed (at least in your oppinion) :) IMO it failed because the separatists-terrorists never intended to have any serious negotiations - due to influence by putler or their own overconfidence - I cannot tell though. Maybe a mix of these + something else even.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on August 14, 2014, 09:37:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 06:32:55 pm
OMG, maybe you don't know but Ukraine was a part of USSR. That territories that separatists are controlling now were presented to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922, Crimea were presented in 1954, but that was united country, and a lot of people on that territories are russians, but less then half. Where they should to move if that territories are their home?

I'm sorry, I thought the RF had absolutely nothing to do with the USSR, that it is a brand new governmental organization with no ties to that past? And now you're saying irredentist claims of former USSR apply to the RF? The only reason there are russians there at all is because of the policy of russification, deliberately flooding all the neighbouring countries with russian immigrants in order to erase the native culture and language. Pretty much exactly what China is doing in Xinjiang and Tibet.

Hmmm, I wonder why neighbouring countries are worried. Obviously just because they're chocolate chip cookie fascists that hate Russia and russians. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 14, 2014, 09:39:23 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 14, 2014, 08:36:35 pm

So... lets see - one is legitimate, another is not? Ofcourse it is better to avoid fighting, but its not like Ukraine did not try to negotiate first and was not offering amnesty, autonomy and a further discussion. Instead - they got called natzzzzeeeeessss and sent away "because we are russia and we will be joining it soon and they will support us". +add the whole propaganda BS by putler media.
to be honest - cool story bro.
1. its not like Ukraine did not try to negotiate first and was not offering amnesty, autonomy and a further discussion.
Ukraine didnt. absolutely. Ukraine still not really agree with the desteny of Crimea but to be honest - really majority voted for being part of russia but who actually cares about people and their opinions when shitload of money counts?
2. "because we are russia and we will be joining it soon and they will support us"
if throw away some obvious things - there wasnt a single word about joining russia in future. yes, none of us needs a proof to understand - its going to be the same like with Crimea but still. they says about their own federation. maybe inside RF(MAYBE AHAHAHA. ofcourse).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 14, 2014, 09:41:08 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 14, 2014, 09:39:23 pm
really majority voted for being part of russia but who actually cares about people and their opinion

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 09:46:22 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2014, 09:36:47 pm
That's nearly 100 years ago - get fucking over it. Either be Ukrainian or piss off if you don't like it. Pretty sure nobody would hold them back if they want to be Russian so badly.
Quote from: Oberyn on August 14, 2014, 09:37:38 pm
I'm sorry, I thought the RF had absolutely nothing to do with the USSR, that it is a brand new governmental organization with no ties to that past? And now you're saying irredentist claims of former USSR apply to the RF? The only reason there are russians there at all is because of the policy of russification, deliberately flooding all the neighbouring countries with russian immigrants in order to erase the native culture and language. Pretty much exactly what China is doing in Xinjiang and Tibet.

Hmmm, I wonder why neighbouring countries are worried. Obviously just because they're chocolate chip cookie fascists that hate Russia and russians. :lol:
Lol I explained why russian people live in the territory of Ukraine, because Turkhammer imho missed it, I don't care about joining that territories. Please read carefully next time
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 14, 2014, 09:47:36 pm
Wierd video where family died because of shelling.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 14, 2014, 09:49:18 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 14, 2014, 09:41:08 pm
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
i have several examples but i'll tell the funniest one.

in our crpg community there was a player known as SB_Tuskin_von_Gotland.
this dude is from Semphiropol(territorial center of Crimea).
he always was europhil. even at his strikeball hobby he always prefered western amunition.
when i left SB i was speaking with him quite rarelly. after some time he told me he was on the Maydan but he was there at December right in the time when things got boring so he got a disappointment and left that place.
after some time, when Crimea became a Russia somehow i met him on the strat battle. I wanted to troll him about his new country but i used to wonder about his answer on my trolling. he was... happy o_O and he voted "Yes" too. then I asked some other SB guys... well they got lol'd too how fast his love to russia has been grown.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 14, 2014, 09:53:44 pm
404 - sense not found

.-.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 14, 2014, 10:24:33 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 14, 2014, 09:53:44 pm
404 - sense not found

.-.
so i'll recommend you to check your hard drive... as i've got - you just have to get one at least.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 15, 2014, 03:28:56 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 14, 2014, 09:49:18 pm
i have several examples but i'll tell the funniest one.

in our crpg community there was a player known as SB_Tuskin_von_Gotland.
this dude is from Semphiropol(territorial center of Crimea).
he always was europhil. even at his strikeball hobby he always prefered western amunition.
when i left SB i was speaking with him quite rarelly. after some time he told me he was on the Maydan but he was there at December right in the time when things got boring so he got a disappointment and left that place.
after some time, when Crimea became a Russia somehow i met him on the strat battle. I wanted to troll him about his new country but i used to wonder about his answer on my trolling. he was... happy o_O and he voted "Yes" too. then I asked some other SB guys... well they got lol'd too how fast his love to russia has been grown.
What a great story, he even preferred western ammunition in "strikeball", such an amazing detail, really brings his undying love for the West into focus.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 15, 2014, 03:48:43 am
https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001 (https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001)

Guardian journalist observes Russian APC's crossing border to Ukraine tonight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 15, 2014, 07:44:21 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 15, 2014, 03:48:43 am
https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001 (https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001)

Guardian journalist observes Russian APC's crossing border to Ukraine tonight.
You and your old news... those APC are HUMANITARIAN AID or they do not exist. Fin. Basta. No other options.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 15, 2014, 08:34:53 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 15, 2014, 03:48:43 am
https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001 (https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001)

Guardian journalist observes Russian APC's crossing border to Ukraine tonight.
according to the data of the SBU and Ukrainian media, on the territory of Ukraine already 50-100 thousand Russian soldiers, 200+ tanks, 500 APC, 50-100 "Grad". So that sneaking columns of 20 aps under the guise of humanitarian aid convoy, tanks and infantry in trucks,looks ridiculous and is only suitable for housewives  and Kuujis :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 15, 2014, 08:48:59 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 15, 2014, 09:17:44 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 15, 2014, 08:34:53 am
according to the data of the SBU and Ukrainian media, on the territory of Ukraine already 50-100 thousand Russian soldiers, 200+ tanks, 500 APC, 50-100 "Grad". So that sneaking columns of 20 aps under the guise of humanitarian aid convoy, tanks and infantry in trucks,looks ridiculous and is only suitable for housewives  and Kuujis :P
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 15, 2014, 09:34:37 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 15, 2014, 08:34:53 am
according to the data of the SBU and Ukrainian media, on the territory of Ukraine already 50-100 thousand Russian soldiers, 200+ tanks, 500 APC, 50-100 "Grad". So that sneaking columns of 20 aps under the guise of humanitarian aid convoy, tanks and infantry in trucks,looks ridiculous and is only suitable for housewives  and Kuujis :P
data of SBU? with numbers of something? something new. they always says something very abstractive what can mean following things:
1) its a secret data
2) they dont know it
3) the ammount of "it" is too low to be counted as a big deal so better dont tell about ammount just make a big deal from it.

in my opinion 2nd and 3rd variants are the most possible ones.

maybe in mind of some people here ukraine became a great european country... such as Greece but for real its as european as russia is.  if political mind of many has been changed at last year - the rest of things didnt. people are still alive because not everything what USSR made for this land has been lost, same as in russia. medicine, education ... well now things gonna be changed and for some reason i am sure - people wont be happy.
for example - education. from USSR we have LOTS of universitys. much more than really required. everyone knows it but everyone wants a high education and they are getting it.pretty soon this trouble with "too many high educated people, not enough work for them" gonna be fixed. at least with ammount of high educated people. is it good or bad? well for real its good but for each retard who made this possible it deffinitelly wont be good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 15, 2014, 10:02:13 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 15, 2014, 03:48:43 am
https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001 (https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001)

Guardian journalist observes Russian APC's crossing border to Ukraine tonight.
I like news like that, ofcourse only one journalist saw it, no osce members saw it who are at the border 24/7, and no red cross member saw it who were at the border. I know that it is very hard to say it to people who monitors the border, convoy were waiting till nightfall, ofcourse there is no time to phone to OSCE, but we can make sensation. Great picture they made, he said it was night when they crossed the border, nice where the pictures of the night. I see only the back of something, where are all  vehicles, he can shot it so close from behind on the road, but coudn't shot it all, why he couldn't shot that place where they crossed the border, that rough dirt track and a gap in a barbed wire fence that demarcates the border. And if he was spying why can't he say exact time of crossing and movements. Try harder comrades)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 15, 2014, 10:10:43 am
Quote from: Xant on August 15, 2014, 09:17:44 am
What the fuck are you even talking about?
be nice with me or ur country will be next target for russian humanitarium convoy!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 15, 2014, 10:32:46 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 15, 2014, 10:10:43 am
be nice with me or ur country will be next target for russian humanitarium convoy!
Russians are more than welcome to try.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 15, 2014, 12:31:51 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 15, 2014, 09:34:37 am
for example - education. from USSR we have LOTS of universitys. much more than really required. everyone knows it but everyone wants a high education and they are getting it.pretty soon this trouble with "too many high educated people, not enough work for them" gonna be fixed. at least with ammount of high educated people. is it good or bad? well for real its good but for each retard who made this possible it deffinitelly wont be good.

Calling most of the post-soviet universities "higher education" is a bit of a leap though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 15, 2014, 12:36:03 pm
Yea, was about to ask...

High education compared to what/whom?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 15, 2014, 01:11:26 pm
high educated in that context means university education.

for the rest of things - as far as i know soviet specialists were really great specialists for that times. ofcourse depends of sphere i guess but still... well sadly when the sientific progress got stuck at USSR and then at post USSR countries our high education became outdated. 

I dont know hows the quality of education at other spheres but I can say on thing for sure - ukrainian IT education sux 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 15, 2014, 01:46:49 pm
Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 15, 2014, 02:14:30 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 15, 2014, 01:46:49 pm
Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.
well i mean just level of education things. btw since 80 or maybe even more previous education from schools became much worse. not my words but words of people who knew that times.
about science... well i dont give a fuck. that is research... kind of it at least. however that was so, you can agree with this way of things, you can disagree. however it: 1) was so 2)is in the past.

the majority of the things i have to know has been made by the western world... and whats then? do i have to talk shit about USSR at any point because of it or what?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 15, 2014, 02:25:09 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 15, 2014, 01:46:49 pm
Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.

You do realise that Dark Blade is speaking of university today?

Its not because some universities were built in the soviet era that they dispense the same education now.
But to stay on your off-topic, even though soviets banned school of thoughts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_research_in_the_Soviet_Union), in the rest of the spectrum of science, they were as free as any other scientists in other countries and produced results... not invariably failed to do so, and not only in engineering :| 
The "principles" of soviet ideology applied to science was mainly restricting or censoring ideas that went against their political system, those that didnt were not subject to more control than your basic government control (which you seem to "invariably" label under "nazi control").

Even nazis had science, and they were not "scientists", they were scientists.

Stop the propaganda please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 15, 2014, 03:00:53 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 15, 2014, 02:25:09 pm
You do realise that Dark Blade is speaking of university today?

Its not because some universities were built in the soviet era that they dispense the same education now.
But to stay on your off-topic, even though soviets banned school of thoughts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_research_in_the_Soviet_Union), in the rest of the spectrum of science, they were as free as any other scientists in other countries and produced results... not invariably failed to do so, and not only in engineering :| 
The "principles" of soviet ideology applied to science was mainly restricting or censoring ideas that went against their political system, those that didnt were not subject to more control than your basic government control (which you seem to "invariably" label under "nazi control").

Even nazis had science, and they were not "scientists", they were scientists.

Stop the propaganda please.
actually i said about both. just in someones mind soviet education = current post USSR education what is really different by quality.
i am not sure why he did started to speak about since.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 15, 2014, 04:41:35 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 15, 2014, 01:46:49 pm
Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.
Wait - engineering is not research? :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 15, 2014, 04:47:27 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 15, 2014, 01:46:49 pm
Soviet "scientists" had to apply the principles of the Soviet ideology in science in order to demonstrate that it works (and invariably failing to do so). Very similar to Nazi "science" actually. That's not to say the Nazis and Soviets did not have some great successes in engineering, but that's not research.
That's not exactly true, not for the exact sciences, anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 15, 2014, 05:28:31 pm
The ukrainian army seems to have attacked the russian convoy. That's what I just read. Not sure if true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 15, 2014, 05:32:20 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 15, 2014, 05:28:31 pm
The ukrainian army seems to have attacked the russian convoy. That's what I just read. Not sure if true.
Sounds legit. The army attacks a bunch of trucks with nothing but humanitarian aid supplies. Or maybe, if this is true, it's what Ukraine and the EU and the US were saying the instant Russia announced their convoy: this is going to be their excuse for war.

Edit: Yeah, apparently Ukraine has destroyed the APCs that the reporter from the Guardian saw. Not the actual trucks. And they're still fighting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 15, 2014, 05:43:04 pm
Oh boy, that might not end well.
On the other hand, what were those APCs to do anyway?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 15, 2014, 05:45:01 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 15, 2014, 05:28:31 pm
The ukrainian army seems to have attacked the russian convoy. That's what I just read. Not sure if true.
convoy is still on RF territory ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on August 15, 2014, 05:49:54 pm
Quote
Ukrainian artillery destroyed a "significant" part of a Russian armoured column that crossed into Ukraine during the night, President Petro Poroshenko told British Prime Minister David Cameron, according to the presidential website.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0815/637230-ukraine-russia/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0815/637230-ukraine-russia/)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726010/Ukrainian-army-battle-Russian-armoured-column-crosses-border-claims-destroyed-Kremlin-forces.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726010/Ukrainian-army-battle-Russian-armoured-column-crosses-border-claims-destroyed-Kremlin-forces.html)



Dunno what the truth is though.


Quote
AMBASSADOR SUMMONED AS WEST CONDEMNS REPORTS OF RUSSIAN INCURSION
Britain this afternoon summoned the Russian ambassador for emergency talks, amid reports of a military incursion into Ukraine.
Russian ambassador Alexander Yakovenko has been asked to ‘clarify’ the reports after the Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko held talks with David Cameron today.
Mr Poroshenko told the Prime Minister that a military convoy had crossed from Russia into Ukraine overnight.
He added that a ‘majority of the machines had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night’.
According to Mr Poroshenko the Prime Minister ‘reaffirmed his strong and gradual support to Ukraine and the actions of the President’ in dealing with the Russian incursion.
Arriving in Brussels today, the Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said he was ‘very alarmed’ by the reports.
He said: ‘If there are any Russian military personnel or vehicles in eastern Ukraine, they need to be withdrawn immediately or the consequences could be very serious.'
Mr Hammond added: ‘We would urge the Russians to withdraw any military personnel that they have inside Ukraine and stop supporting the separatists as they have been doing for the last few months.
‘The situation is potentially very dangerous and that's why we are here today discussing it.’
Nato secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen confirmed the incursion.
He said: ‘We see a continuous flow of weapons and fighters from Russia into eastern Ukraine, and it is a clear demonstration of continued Russian involvement in [its] destabilisation.’
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on August 15, 2014, 06:30:50 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on August 15, 2014, 05:49:54 pm
Dunno what the truth is though.

It seems obvious enough. The mysterious aid trucks are still in Russia. The action took place in Ukraine. If the casualties were Russian, then it means that for whatever reason, the Russians sent troops into Ukraine, completely ignoring all warnings and protestations from the Ukrainians, the EU and everyone involved. I don't see what there is to argue about really, Russia can cry that Ukraine is "preventing a humanitarian operation" all it likes, they have no legitimate reason for sending troops into Ukraine without permission, which was repeatedly and clearly denied.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 15, 2014, 08:53:22 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 15, 2014, 09:00:42 pm
That sure isn't from today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 16, 2014, 12:49:18 am
Quote from: Butan on August 15, 2014, 02:25:09 pm
You do realise that Dark Blade is speaking of university today?

Its not because some universities were built in the soviet era that they dispense the same education now.
But to stay on your off-topic, even though soviets banned school of thoughts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_research_in_the_Soviet_Union), in the rest of the spectrum of science, they were as free as any other scientists in other countries and produced results... not invariably failed to do so, and not only in engineering :| 
The "principles" of soviet ideology applied to science was mainly restricting or censoring ideas that went against their political system, those that didnt were not subject to more control than your basic government control (which you seem to "invariably" label under "nazi control").

Even nazis had science, and they were not "scientists", they were scientists.

Stop the propaganda please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
search for "Nazi human experimentation", I can't post the link properly here.

Efforts of both the Nazi and Soviet scientists in fields such as biology and human sciences have been extremely if not completely defined by the ideology. The government's influence was much stricter than banning "subversive" research. The goal was to prove that the ideology worked through scientific results, and to use techniques derived from the ideology in practical applications (that's Lysenkoism in a nutshell).

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2014, 04:41:35 pm
Wait - engineering is not research? :lol:

No, it's really really not. And you are talking to a scientist, not an engineer. I know many engineers that would tell you engineering is research. I do believe that's another discussion entirely though.

Quote from: [ptx] on August 15, 2014, 04:47:27 pm
That's not exactly true, not for the exact sciences, anyway.

Sure, but then the exact sciences were abused as a way to create war necessities (for exact sciences it was mainly about weapons). Also don't forget that the Nazi and Soviet regimes were populist and copiously indulged in book burnings, censor as well as hostility towards intellectuals.

Anyway, back to EUkraine 2014
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 16, 2014, 12:57:42 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 16, 2014, 12:49:18 am
Sure, but then the exact sciences were abused as a way to create war necessities (for exact sciences it was mainly about weapons). Also don't forget that the Nazi and Soviet regimes were populist and copiously indulged in book burnings, censor as well as hostility towards intellectuals.
That is what communist regimes in general did upon establishing themselves upon some populace, as a way of subjugating. One might say the regimes feared intellectuals not raised under their ideology as potential dissidents. This, however, did not continue after that initial purge. The exact sciences were well supported and progressive under SU. Whatever can be said of social studies in post-soviet countries, the exact sciences, imho, are not lacking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 01:49:27 am
Quote from: Anuran on August 15, 2014, 05:28:31 pm
The ukrainian army seems to have attacked the russian convoy. That's what I just read. Not sure if true.

Like a lot of the stories the anti-Russian slanted media have been reporting lately, there is no evidence to support Kiev's accusations, just words.

A journalist from the telegraph in an interview with the BBC had apparently "witnessed" 23 armoured vehicles crossing into Ukraine through a "hole in the fence", this journalist I take it had no camera, or phone to take pictures with as he has completely ZERO evidence to support his story.

He couldn't take a photo of 23 armoured vehicles crossing into Ukraine and couldn't even take a photo of the purported hole in the fence, some journalist huh?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 16, 2014, 02:36:28 am
Guardian journalists are not known to lie so blatantly though. Whatever it is, it is just a report, a plausible one.

And who, really, are so incredibly thick that they think Russia DOESN'T support the separatists with heavy materiel?
(I hope we all can agree on that here..)

Other than that you can believe or not believe that Russia also supports with special forces, allowing Russians to go fight there, shelling from russian side of border, BUK missiles etc etc etc..

You have to be intensely blind not to see the strong contours, rather the crisp and clear image after the events at hand:

*Corrupt Pro Russian prez escapes to Russia, after protests turning violent. chocolate chip cookies fight hardest.
*Crimea gets annexed not with "locals" but as Putin agreed: with help of RF regular forces.
*Images of the same guys protesting show up in Estonia, Crimea, and East Ukraine=organized revolt by someone.
*Rebellion begins. Leaders are "former" KGB officers from Russia..
*Rebels have lots of tanks and heavy gear from "somewhere"
*MH17 shot down. 2? days before, Ukraine lost mil plane at 5000m, thought Russia did it, because they thought Rebels only had manpads (3000m). MH17 went down in middle of rebel territory, probably rebels had big rockets. Probably supplied from Russia to neutralize Ukr air force. But who knows, maybe Ukr did it to remove the BUK's the rebels had from the area..
*Now, first journos find track marks crossing RF/Ukraine border. Soldiers says its tractors.  :lol:
*Then we get this report. At the same time controversial help Convoy distracts all attention from MH17.

I probably even forgot a lot. To me, the picture is pretty damn clear, disregarding propaganda from both sides:

Russia is actively supporting the rebels in Ukraine in military way. Why do we even discuss that.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 03:27:56 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 01:49:27 am
Like a lot of the stories the anti-Russian slanted media have been reporting lately, there is no evidence to support Kiev's accusations, just words.

A journalist from the telegraph in an interview with the BBC had apparently "witnessed" 23 armoured vehicles crossing into Ukraine through a "hole in the fence", this journalist I take it had no camera, or phone to take pictures with as he has completely ZERO evidence to support his story.

He couldn't take a photo of 23 armoured vehicles crossing into Ukraine and couldn't even take a photo of the purported hole in the fence, some journalist huh?
He did take a picture you moron, good research as always - way to show off your retardation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:35:11 am
Quote
In the initial version of the message published on a site of the president of Ukraine at 14:22 local time, it wasn't spoken about destruction of the Russian military equipment, notices Russia Today. The message text as journalists found out, was copied about three hours later after the publication.

Quote
No Russian military column which allegedly crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border at night, in the afternoon — exists. Also it will be best of all if the Ukrainian artillery destroyed the phantom, but not refugees or own military personnel — the official representative of department major general Igor Konashenkov declared. — The similar statements based on some imaginations and to tell assumptions of journalists more true, shouldn't be a subject of serious discussion by the highest officials of any country. It is sad that not the facts, and journalistic ducks on social networks become a reason for top-level loud statements in a number of European and "the states which chose the European way"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:44:24 am
Well, if Russia Today says so, it must be true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 16, 2014, 07:56:22 am
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:44:24 am
Well, if Russia Today says so, it must be true.
After the crucified kid and "plane full of corpses" spectacles - how can your trust in RT waiver...

One guy on russian webs had this joke about all of this: "if I have to choose salmon from Norway Vs putlers imperialistic ambitions - I would choose salmon any time." Must be those 13%... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 16, 2014, 09:53:29 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 16, 2014, 07:56:22 am
After the crucified kid and "plane full of corpses" spectacles - how can your trust in RT waiver...

One guy on russian webs had this joke about all of this: "if I have to choose salmon from Norway Vs putlers imperialistic ambitions - I would choose salmon any time." Must be those 13%... :rolleyes:
I don't get the joke :3
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 10:43:00 am
I don't know about first statement, but second is official. And seems how SBU of Ukraine makes fakes most of the time, so Poroshenko believed in this fake, and many others countries. Really how serious people start to believe in not proved statements. And you guys too
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 10:45:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 10:43:00 am
I don't know about first statement, but second is official. And seems how SBU of Ukraine makes fakes most of the time, so Poroshenko believed in this fake, and many others countries. Really how serious people start to believe in not proved statements. And you guys too
Russian official statements are even more full of lies than their propaganda TV channels.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 11:00:08 am
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 10:45:58 am
Russian official statements are even more full of lies than their propaganda TV channels.
Show me please, just want to see, because in Russia it is hard to see. I believe that you will give something, but please don't give fakes. Waiting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 11:27:16 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 11:00:08 am
Show me please, just want to see, because in Russia it is hard to see. I believe that you will give something, but please don't give fakes. Waiting.
?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 11:40:34 am
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 11:27:16 am
?
It means show me fakes of russian officials, open your logic man
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 11:43:27 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 11:40:34 am
It means show me fakes of russian officials, open your logic man
*opens my logic*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 16, 2014, 01:42:01 pm
Thomek, ofcourse everyone knows it but this support is as big as it is. not more, not less. some of those soldiers are just criminals who are not even able to come back to the russia. kossaks are not a real regular army. everything in this situation is simple and hard for understanding in same time. depends of your attention to details.

Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 11:43:27 am
*opens my logic*
look there! see? its empty.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 02:03:13 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 16, 2014, 02:36:28 am
Guardian journalists are not known to lie so blatantly though. Whatever it is, it is just a report, a plausible one.

And who, really, are so incredibly thick that they think Russia DOESN'T support the separatists with heavy materiel?
(I hope we all can agree on that here..)

Other than that you can believe or not believe that Russia also supports with special forces, allowing Russians to go fight there, shelling from russian side of border, BUK missiles etc etc etc..

You have to be intensely blind not to see the strong contours, rather the crisp and clear image after the events at hand:

*Corrupt Pro Russian prez escapes to Russia, after protests turning violent. chocolate chip cookies fight hardest.
*Crimea gets annexed not with "locals" but as Putin agreed: with help of RF regular forces.
*Images of the same guys protesting show up in Estonia, Crimea, and East Ukraine=organized revolt by someone.
*Rebellion begins. Leaders are "former" KGB officers from Russia..
*Rebels have lots of tanks and heavy gear from "somewhere"
*MH17 shot down. 2? days before, Ukraine lost mil plane at 5000m, thought Russia did it, because they thought Rebels only had manpads (3000m). MH17 went down in middle of rebel territory, probably rebels had big rockets. Probably supplied from Russia to neutralize Ukr air force. But who knows, maybe Ukr did it to remove the BUK's the rebels had from the area..
*Now, first journos find track marks crossing RF/Ukraine border. Soldiers says its tractors.  :lol:
*Then we get this report. At the same time controversial help Convoy distracts all attention from MH17.

I probably even forgot a lot. To me, the picture is pretty damn clear, disregarding propaganda from both sides:

Russia is actively supporting the rebels in Ukraine in military way. Why do we even discuss that.

The timeline of events started before the Russian backed elected president fleeing after receiving death threats from neo n azi's, it started with American and European NGO's stirring dissent amongst anti-Russian factions within Ukraine and their attempts to spark a coup in which a Western friendly government would be brought to power. Both the West and Russia are playing dirty games, but the West has played it far more in many many more nations and regions than Russia ever has, not to excuse either side but a fact that most people seem to forget in their blind anti-Russian stance.

Actions conducted by NATO, its destabilization of the Middle-East, its war games being conducted in every ocean and region of the globe, its missile "defence" shield surrounding its geopolitical rivals justify Russia's recent actions and behaviours. The standard has been set by NATO and Russia doesn't even need to sink to their level to maintain its defence of its geopolitical interests.

Even if Russia overtly armed the separatists in East Ukraine, I wouldn't oppose it. Because the nations telling Russia that it should not do so are blatant hypocrites and have been arming dictators and separatists in other nations for decades.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 16, 2014, 02:03:33 pm
Dont waste your time on Xant, Dark Blade; when he doesnt pretend to be more stupid than he is, like now, he is trying to sound smart, and fails.



Quote from: Thomek on August 16, 2014, 02:36:28 am
*Rebellion begins. Leaders are "former" KGB officers from Russia..
*Rebels have lots of tanks and heavy gear from "somewhere"


I agree with most of your timeline Thomek (except some details), but there has been months between those two lines... Hence you're missing a lot. And blatantly ignoring/forgetting the "local(s)" reasons why the rebellion is, but thats something everyone else does so I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 02:11:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 16, 2014, 02:03:33 pm
Dont waste your time on Xant, Dark Blade; when he doesnt pretend to be more stupid than he is, like now, he is trying to sound smart, and fails.




I agree with most of your timeline Thomek (except some details), but there has been months between those two lines... Hence you're missing a lot. And blatantly ignoring/forgetting the "local(s)" reasons why the rebellion is, but thats something everyone else does so I'm not surprised.

Probably because its not a point our mainstream media has focused on, when individuals base their information primarily from mainstream media sources which they trust, such perspectives are formed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 03:23:59 pm
I just want people not to forget that incident where armed russian convoy crossed the border and were destroyed by Ukranian army. Because gensec Nato confirmed that, and some other countries, lol but USA didn't confirm that. But ok let's see how this fake will disappear later)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 03:25:16 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 02:11:11 pm
Probably because its not a point our mainstream media has focused on, when individuals base their information primarily from mainstream media sources which they trust, such perspectives are formed.
You still thinking that its western propaganda that has shaped such a hostile viewpoint of Russia shows just how little you really know.

Also
Alexander Zaharchenko, who is basically the new leader said that 1200 russian troops with 120 APCs and 30 tanks were coming as reinforcements. Quess those reports werent fake afterall. Unless he is full of shit.
His statement
and the news
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/16/ukraine-rebels-boast-about-troops-and-tanks-coming-from-russia.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 03:47:16 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 03:25:16 pm
You still thinking that its western propaganda that has shaped such a hostile viewpoint of Russia shows just how little you really know.

Also
Alexander Zaharchenko, who is basically the new leader said that 1200 russian troops with 120 APCs and 30 tanks were coming as reinforcements. Quess those reports werent fake afterall. Unless he is full of shit.
His statement
and the news
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/16/ukraine-rebels-boast-about-troops-and-tanks-coming-from-russia.html

A story without evidence may as well be propaganda, especially from media sources which appear to favour the side our governments favour.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 03:48:15 pm
(click to show/hide)
lol you don't know russian? He says that they collected 150 APC from them 30 tanks. And 1200 troops not russian but ukranian which were trained on the territory of Russia.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 04:17:04 pm
No. But thanks for translating. Lol. Really? I figured as much. Since someone would probably film 120 APCs and 30 tanks crossing a border. -1 for Western media, I suppose.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 03:47:16 pm
A story without evidence may as well be propaganda, especially from media sources which appear to favour the side our governments favour.
Nah man, the fruits of that hostile viewpoint we have, have been grown by the russians themselves and noone else. Sure occasionally it bends the truth, like just right now. My personal anti-russianism is basically built upon personal experiences as many other people similar to me. Rather than massive newsreading. Really man, have you actually seen a diehard patriotic russian? There shitloads of them and they are basically intolerant of other cultures and basically haters in general.

In the Baltics you kinda see a lot and you can see and almost compare. A lot of fresh Russian immigrants being basically assholes in general, massive anti-west and haters in general. Granted not all of them are like it, But around 30% of younger people definately and majority of the elderly just being passionate pro-russians. While if you compare to the young people that are of russian heritage but raised in the Baltic. Lot calmer people, dont really have any political alignment to either West or Russia, basically being neutral entirely. Say what you want about Western propaganda but it never turns people into such massive haters as it does in the East. You can easly even compare the internetcomments. Majority of the Western people are all like: "Fuck you, we dont want war, lets stay home" while majority of Russian comments are: "I support that we sent troops there" and "we should send more troops". So wtf are you talking about NATO propaganda to take over the world while the majority of its citizens are furiously trying to convince their governments to not send any military aid to anywhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 04:52:03 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 04:17:04 pm
No. But thanks for translating. Lol. Really? I figured as much. Since someone would probably film 120 APCs and 30 tanks crossing a border. -1 for Western media, I suppose.
Nah man, the fruits of that hostile viewpoint we have, have been grown by the russians themselves and noone else. Sure occasionally it bends the truth, like just right now. My personal anti-russianism is basically built upon personal experiences as many other people similar to me. Rather than massive newsreading. Really man, have you actually seen a diehard patriotic russian? There shitloads of them and they are basically intolerant of other cultures and basically haters in general.

In the Baltics you kinda see a lot and you can see and almost compare. A lot of fresh Russian immigrants being basically assholes in general, massive anti-west and haters in general. Granted not all of them are like it, But around 30% of younger people definately and majority of the elderly just being passionate pro-russians. While if you compare to the young people that are of russian heritage but raised in the Baltic. Lot calmer people, dont really have any political alignment to either West or Russia, basically being neutral entirely. Say what you want about Western propaganda but it never turns people into such massive haters as it does in the East. You can easly even compare the internetcomments. Majority of the Western people are all like: "Fuck you, we dont want war, lets stay home" while majority of Russian comments are: "I support that we sent troops there" and "we should send more troops". So wtf are you talking about NATO propaganda to take over the world while the majority of its citizens are furiously trying to convince their governments to not send any military aid to anywhere.

Yes many people do see through the propaganda, many people are just anti-war no matter the circumstances, but then you have people who excuse NATO involvement in conflicts, because they are either nationalist, or racist, or bought up in a system and in communities who were taught to hate certain peoples and ethnicities. "Why bother criticise our own governments for their own murderous and hypocritical behaviour, we've been raised to hate Russians and that's all that matters!"Such as in Ukraine videos emerging of Ukrainian organisations encouraging children to dance in a circle holding hands around a burning effigy of Putin. This kind of systematic widespread form of propagandised upbringing will discourage people from asking the difficult questions and objectively throwing their two cents in and instead tow their governments line, "kill the aggressive Russians just because!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 04:54:06 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 16, 2014, 02:03:33 pm
Dont waste your time on Xant, Dark Blade; when he doesnt pretend to be more stupid than he is, like now, he is trying to sound smart, and fails.
Coming from you, the pet retard...  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 16, 2014, 05:12:16 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 02:11:11 pm
Probably because its not a point our mainstream media has focused on, when individuals base their information primarily from mainstream media sources which they trust, such perspectives are formed.

Why do you trust any random web site anymore than you trust mainstream media?  What is it that makes you think that the "alternate" news that you get on those sites is any less agenda driven than mainstream media? 

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 04:52:03 pm
Yes many people do see through the propaganda, many people are just anti-war no matter the circumstances, but then you have people who excuse NATO involvement in conflicts, because they are either nationalist, or racist, or bought up in a system and in communities who were taught to hate certain peoples and ethnicities. "Why bother criticise our own governments for their own murderous and hypocritical behaviour, we've been raised to hate Russians and that's all that matters!"Such as in Ukraine videos emerging of Ukrainian organisations encouraging children to dance in a circle holding hands around a burning effigy of Putin. This kind of systematic widespread form of propagandised upbringing will discourage people from asking the difficult questions and objectively throwing their two cents in and instead tow their governments line, "kill the aggressive Russians just because!"

Your problem MP is that you hopelessly conflate Russian use of, or threatened use of force with NATO's willingness to accept the application of erstwhile Soviet Bloc countries.  NATO didn't say "you must join or we'll bankrupt you and probably invade you", to Poland.  That's essentially what Russian has done with Georgia and now with Ukraine.  Your point of view is typical of a knee jerk reaction that says if my government says it it must be a lie.

There is plenty of reasons that people in the former Soviet Bloc countries may hate Russia.  There is no need for propaganda to stir hatred. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 05:13:05 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 04:52:03 pm
Yes many people do see through the propaganda, many people are just anti-war no matter the circumstances, but then you have people who excuse NATO involvement in conflicts, because they are either nationalist, or racist, or bought up in a system and in communities who were taught to hate certain peoples and ethnicities. "Why bother criticise our own governments for their own murderous and hypocritical behaviour, we've been raised to hate Russians and that's all that matters!"Such as in Ukraine videos emerging of Ukrainian organisations encouraging children to dance in a circle holding hands around a burning effigy of Putin. This kind of systematic widespread form of propagandised upbringing will discourage people from asking the difficult questions and objectively throwing their two cents in and instead tow their governments line, "kill the aggressive Russians just because!"
And whose government and system is doing that? Eastern-EU countries are considered to be the most anti-russian, yet their governments are mainly concentrated on trying to convince their citizens and countries that they are diehard europeans and not USSR or something and generally dont show open hostility towards their eastern neibhour unless it shows it first in large quantities and show almost 0 hostility towards their russian minorities. If some guys are hardcore pro-NATO its due to their choice, but frankly I havent really seen a person who is pro-NATO, majority of people here are just meh about it and quite sure its the same in majority of EU. So yea......unless NATO cant propaganda properly or its just not trying very hard.....

And before you say Ukr government is doing that. Id like to remind you that Ukr doesnt really count. Since they are more or less at state of war with Russia. People do tend to fall into extremes during times of war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:20:18 pm
As for lies of the Russian government, I won't even bother to point it all out. Anyone who has to ask where they've lied clearly hasn't followed the Ukraine conflict. Just start from the mystery gunmen in Russian gear at Crimea and what Russia claimed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:32:42 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:20:18 pm
As for lies of the Russian government, I won't even bother to point it all out. Anyone who has to ask where they've lied clearly hasn't followed the Ukraine conflict. Just start from the mystery gunmen in Russian gear at Crimea and what Russia claimed.
They claimed that those soldiers were special forces, but yes before they denied it to prevent more conflict. Anything else? If you say that they lie more then russian propoganda then I want moar Xant moar.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:35:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:32:42 pm
They claimed that those soldiers were special forces, but yes before they denied it to prevent more conflict. Anything else? If you say that they lie more then russian propoganda then I want moar Xant moar.
"Denied it to prevent more conflict"  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And you can take your wants and stick them up your ass, assuming they'll all fit in there. I told you where Russia told DIRECT LIES and all you do is say "they did it to prevent more conflict!!!!!" Do your own research, if you're capable -- that is to say, not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:42:41 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:35:47 pm
"Denied it to prevent more conflict"  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And you can take your wants and stick them up your ass, assuming they'll all fit in there. I told you where Russia told DIRECT LIES and all you do is say "they did it to prevent more conflict!!!!!" Do your own research, if you're capable -- that is to say, not.
I don't need it, just wanted to show that you don't answer for your words. They lied then Putin claimed that this were special forces. And I knew that you will act like this, hold your answer if you can.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:47:53 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:42:41 pm
I don't need it, just wanted to show that you don't answer for your words. They lied then Putin claimed that this were special forces. And I knew that you will act like this, hold your answer if you can.
I already showed you where they lied, retard. Do you think they suddenly got really sad and lost a lot of sleep and vowed to never lie again? Use your brains and it's obvious they're lying about a LOT of stuff currently - oh wait, I forgot, you're Russian, check that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 05:50:53 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 05:13:05 pm
And whose government and system is doing that? Eastern-EU countries are considered to be the most anti-russian, yet their governments are mainly concentrated on trying to convince their citizens and countries that they are diehard europeans and not USSR or something and generally dont show open hostility towards their eastern neibhour unless it shows it first in large quantities and show almost 0 hostility towards their russian minorities. If some guys are hardcore pro-NATO its due to their choice, but frankly I havent really seen a person who is pro-NATO, majority of people here are just meh about it and quite sure its the same in majority of EU. So yea......unless NATO cant propaganda properly or its just not trying very hard.....

And before you say Ukr government is doing that. Id like to remind you that Ukr doesnt really count. Since they are more or less at state of war with Russia. People do tend to fall into extremes during times of war.

Being anti-Russian for the sake of being pro-Polish nationalists, pro Ukrainian nationalists or whatever nationalist normally drives people to support their nations armed forces, armed forces under control of an alliance headed by the U.S called NATO.

These nationalists allow their governments to justify at least domestically the conflicts and sabre rattling against Russia, its allies and other sovereign states in the world, and therefore allows the government to follow NATO agenda freely which is being headed by another nation not elected by the peoples within that member state. The EU is merely the European domestic face of NATO, where as NATO the military face. There are multiple occasions where NATO states establish a geopolitical narrative and publically cite support for their actions through this narrative, from humanitarian, to defence, whether it be attacking and invading Iraq, or Afghanistan, or overthrowing Gaddafi, supplying terrorists in Syria, from fellow member states.The undemocratic NATO alliance dictates what our governments do and don't do in the bigger picture of politics.

So in the end dumb nationalists end up serving the interests of their foreign masters rather than their own people and completely undermine the values they purport to base their beliefs and political views on. This reality unfortunately means the poor will continue to pay the price, shooting themselves in the foot, become a nationalist and support an agenda headed by another nation, undermine your own democracy and sovereignty, the poor will continue to die for the rich.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:55:29 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 05:47:53 pm
I already showed you where they lied, retard. Do you think they suddenly got really sad and lost a lot of sleep and vowed to never lie again? Use your brains and it's obvious they're lying about a LOT of stuff currently - oh wait, I forgot, you're Russian, check that.
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 10:45:58 am
Russian official statements are even more full of lies than their propaganda TV channels.
answer for this words. try harder. But I know you can't
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Chosen1 on August 16, 2014, 05:58:06 pm
It's mindboggling how brainwashed Russians are by their media outlets. The West's news corporations also try to spin things in a way that fits them, but Russian news is just blatant propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:02:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:55:29 pm
answer for this words. try harder. But I know you can't
Are you fucking retarded? Don't answer that, rhetorical question. I'll break it down to you real simple once, just because I sympathize with the fact that nobody's retarded on purpose: Russian official statements are more full of lies because THEY ARE OFFICIAL STATEMENTS, they say how things are, they straight out either deny or confirm events, the supposed soldiers are under their command, whereas, for example, Russia Today is merely a news outlet that parrots whatever they hear, nobody goes to them to ask "hey, are there Russian soldiers in Crimea?" and have them answer "WE CAN INDEED CONFIRM THERE ARE NONE" -- RT is just REPORTING things, usually the propaganda RUSSIAN OFFICIALS FEED THEM, they don't control anything and thus don't have the knowledge to confirm/deny.

All that will go over your head like a skein of migrating geese, of course.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:02:38 pm
Quote from: Chosen1 on August 16, 2014, 05:58:06 pm
It's mindboggling how brainwashed Russians are by their media outlets. The West's news corporations also try to spin things in a way that fits them, but Russian news is just blatant propaganda.
Oh another one, show me how russian are brainwashed, especially me

Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:02:17 pm
Are you fucking retarded? Don't answer that, rhetorical question. I'll break it down to you real simple once, just because I sympathize with the fact that nobody's retarded on purpose: Russian official statements are more full of lies because THEY ARE OFFICIAL STATEMENTS, they say how things are, they straight out either deny or confirm events, whereas, for example, Russia Today is merely a news outlet that parrots whatever they hear, nobody goes to them to ask "hey, are there Russian soldiers in Crimea?" and have them answer "WE CAN INDEED CONFIRM THERE ARE NONE."

All that will go over your head like a skein of migrating geese, of course.
You still didn't answer for your statement about russian officials and I know you won't
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:06:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:02:38 pm
You still didn't answer for your statement about russian officials and I know you won't
Your English is too awful to understand my answer. Shows the level of Russian education -- non-existent.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:12:01 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:06:09 pm
Your English is too awful to understand my answer. Shows the level of Russian education -- non-existent.
I understood that you cant proof that russian officials lie more then russian TV. Your answer is from "I know it, no matter from, I just believe it in my heart" :mrgreen: About education I have all greatest marks in the school, I know 4 languages, and I finished University with highest mark. Maybe in your country I don't know which education is better, but seems behavior is not so good :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:12:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:12:01 pm
I understood that you cant proof that russian officials lie more then russian TV. Your answer is from "I know it, no matter from, I just believe it in my heart" :mrgreen: About education I have all greatest marks in the school, I know 4 languages, and I finished University with highest mark. Maybe in your country I don't know which education is better, but seems behavior is not so good :oops:
HAHAHAHAAAHAHHA you finished university with highest marks and your English is worse than an average European twelve year old's. Again, case in point -- Russian education is fucking shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 06:15:25 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 05:50:53 pm
Being anti-Russian for the sake of being pro-Polish nationalists, pro Ukrainian nationalists or whatever nationalist...
Thats not very common you know.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 05:50:53 pm
So in the end dumb nationalists end up serving the interests of their foreign masters rather than their own people and completely undermine the values they purport to base their beliefs and political views on. This reality unfortunately means the poor will continue to pay the price, shooting themselves in the foot, become a nationalist and support an agenda headed by another nation, undermine your own democracy and sovereignty, the poor will continue to die for the rich.
And what of Russia and their dumb nationalists? In Russia the voters themselves have dropped any kind of wish to pick a government that would improve their own country, but rather choose one that would face their ethernal enemy, the West. The entire face of Russian nationalism is to be an adversary to the West. While the face of Western countries nationalism is entirely concentrated on internal politics. They support their countries armed forces aslong as it stays home. Thats basically it. To be a nationalist you dont have to be pro-nato or anti-russian. You can be neutral in all of this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:15:37 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:12:50 pm
HAHAHAHAAAHAHHA you finished university with highest marks and your English is worse than an average European twelve year old's. Again, case in point -- Russian education is fucking shit.
Nice one, don't go out of your statement, just say that you can't proof it and that's all for today
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:16:46 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:15:37 pm
Nice one, don't go out of your statement, just say that you can't proof it and that's all for today
Come again? You're not being coherent, your English is too broken.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:18:53 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:16:46 pm
Come again? You're not being coherent, your English is too broken.
Don't worry about my english, worry about your logic and behavior. Just say that you can't proof your words. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:19:53 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:18:53 pm
Don't worry about my english, worry about your logic and behavior. Just say that you can't proof your words. :D
What do you mean proof my words? Proofread them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:24:04 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:19:53 pm
What do you mean proof my words? Proofread them?
Proof your statement that russian officials lie more then russian propoganda. I don't say that they don't lie, I want you to proof that they lie more then russian propoganda, got it? :mrgreen:
Proof it Proof it Please
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:26:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:24:04 pm
Proof your statement that russian officials lie more then russian propoganda. I don't say that they don't lie, I want you to proof that they lie more then russian propoganda, got it? :mrgreen:
Proof it Proof it Please
Great English once again, 10/10, would read again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:30:24 pm
Sorry guys for that stupid diolog, just wanted to troll Xant, maybe he will be more adequate next times
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 16, 2014, 06:32:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:02:38 pm
Oh another one, show me how russian are brainwashed, especially me

http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/ (http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/)

380 pages, take your pick.

trolololololol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:32:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:30:24 pm
Sorry guys for that stupid diolog, just wanted to troll Xant, maybe he will be more adequate next times
And oh boy did you troll me. You managed to make yourself look like a complete tool by continuing to demand "proof" when I already answered your question, but like I predicted, you were incapable of understanding it.

But hey, you're Russian, no surprise that you're a massive idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:47:52 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:32:26 pm
But hey, you're Russian, no surprise that you're a massive idiot.
Nice one, I'm massive idiot, because I'm russian, continue in that way and maybe you will get somewhere :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:49:56 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:47:52 pm
Nice one, I'm massive idiot, because I'm russian, continue in that way and maybe you will get somewhere
Yep. Dota 2, CS:GO and cRPG forums have taught me all I need to know about Russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:51:10 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:49:56 pm
Yep. Dota 2, CS:GO and cRPG forums have taught me all I need to know about Russians.
Keep that way, don't turn from it :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:54:45 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 06:51:10 pm
Keep that way, don't turn from it :wink:
Given that 99% of Russians I've ever come across are massive retards, I doubt I will. The "idiot when Russian" ratio is way too high to be a coincidence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 07:01:22 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2014, 06:54:45 pm
Given that 99% of Russians I've ever come across are massive retards, I doubt I will. The "idiot when Russian" ratio is way too high to be a coincidence.
I'm sorry for trolling you Xant, sometimes it happens with me, let's be friends. It is easy to shitting on each other, and much harder to be friendly. So let's forget it and be more polite. I know that my english is bad, I'm trying to improve it, but only place where I can do it is crpg. So if you would like to visit Russia I can give you a room and food, and I think we can change your opinion about russians a little :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2014, 07:03:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 07:01:22 pm
I'm sorry for trolling you Xant, sometimes it happens with me, let's be friends. It is easy to shitting on each other, and much harder to be friendly. So let's forget it and be more polite. I know that my english is bad, I'm trying to improve it, but only place where I can do it is crpg. So if you would like to visit Russia I can give you a room and food, and I think we can change your opinion about russians a little :)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Ok but no homosexual stuff, I know you russians are all gay.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 07:20:32 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 06:15:25 pm
Thats not very common you know.
And what of Russia and their dumb nationalists? In Russia the voters themselves have dropped any kind of wish to pick a government that would improve their own country, but rather choose one that would face their ethernal enemy, the West. The entire face of Russian nationalism is to be an adversary to the West. While the face of Western countries nationalism is entirely concentrated on internal politics. They support their countries armed forces aslong as it stays home. Thats basically it. To be a nationalist you dont have to be pro-nato or anti-russian. You can be neutral in all of this.

That is not true at all. Many nationalists would support their military whether they are protecting the borders or bombing a nation because our politicians told them to do so under a false pretext. A pretext based on lines to cover the thinly veiled real agenda that our mainstream media whom just so happen to tow the government line always seem to be too blind to spot and bring out into public debate.

Of course suppression of debate is prevalent in western media, they only hold strictly scripted, strongly corporate narratives biased in favour of the government position. But when the governments position is critical of another nation, our media go nuts, they really take a chunk out of our governments enemies whether justified or not, and this media behaviour further hypes nationalist ideals and support of an aggressive foreign policy.

After all it's hard to deny that the Wests foreign policy has been the most aggressive and destructive out of all regions in the world this century. You could cite Russia for bringing Crimea back into its orbit without so much more than a death or two, single figures, you could cite Russia for blocking Georgia's attempt at an aggressive annex of South Osetia and Abkhazia by FORCE, but in its own actions Russia as a nation THIS CENTURY has been an example to the rest of the world on how a country can behave responsibly while REALLY protecting its national interests and not the interests of its corporations, Iraqi, Kuwaiti, Libyan oil, Syrian gas, Ukrainian gas...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 07:55:01 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 07:20:32 pm
That is not true at all. Many nationalists would support their military whether they are protecting the borders or bombing a nation because our politicians told them to do so under a false pretext. A pretext based on lines to cover the thinly veiled real agenda that our mainstream media whom just so happen to tow the government line always seem to be too blind to spot and bring out into public debate.
Which countries nationalists? Please elaborate. Cause to my knowledge majority of EUs nationalists wouldnt support their military when it comes to bombing a nation.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 16, 2014, 07:20:32 pm
Of course suppression of debate is prevalent in western media, they only hold strictly scripted, strongly corporate narratives biased in favour of the government position. But when the governments position is critical of another nation, our media go nuts, they really take a chunk out of our governments enemies whether justified or not, and this media behaviour further hypes nationalist ideals and support of an aggressive foreign policy.
If you think that is bad, you clearly havent seen russian media. Western media doesnt even take a chunk out of its enemies nearly as large as russian media does. I wouldnt really say its that bad and id call your saying of "support of aggressive foreign policy" false. That is just not true. I personally havent noticed EU calling anyone else besides ISIS and recently Russia a real enemy. Its relations even with Cuba and China have been improving aswell. Before Ukraine, EUs disposition towards Russia wasnt very hostile. Infact a lot of people belived this could be a beginning of a real truce of a sort. If you could have asked EU citizens(of countries that dont border Russia) before Ukr crysis, which countries would they consider their countries enemy, pretty sure they would have said nobody. If you would have asked russian citizens that before Ukr crysis, you would have gotten a list of shitton of countries from every single person for sure. Even if you asked them the same question after Ukr, quite sure that list would still remain the same.

Say what you want, but I just dont see any western people wanting war or bombings on any country, nomatter what the explanation is, while I see and hear russians everywhere praising, even straight up demanding invasions and military interference, for way larger bullshit reasons that even a 7 year old child wouldnt belive. Why wouldnt I feel worried when I can clearly see and hear that im living next to a nation filled with warmonglers, whose citizens blindly support wars for reasons that are so unconstructive and unproven.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 08:05:19 pm
If I was asked who I think is an enemy of my country before ukranian actions, I would say we are ourselves, and I wouldn't say that there is any foreign enemy country. And all my friends think so too)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 08:07:57 pm
Well than you are one of the good ones man. Dont even change.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 08:27:12 pm
Thanks, but when I see how people blame Russia, I want to see direct proofs of what they say.

BTW soldiers in ukranian brigade 72 say that more then 10000 people were killed in ATO from ukranian side, really stupid war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OEm0wjKzA on russian

at that time the military commissar in Odessa got a new not cheap car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCIorJOg4bY
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 16, 2014, 09:04:26 pm
my favorite is still this one.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

the picture says Simferopol but the video was made during the riots in Kiew. (unfortunately, the news report and the viedeo are long gone.)

but i have found this one, this was a few days after the "not so russian" gunmen have showed up
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqI5gTZjXz0[/youtube]

a nice little PR stunt. both times the message was the same "right sector is coming, you need protection".

Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 05:32:42 pm
They claimed that those soldiers were special forces, but yes before they denied it to prevent more conflict. Anything else? If you say that they lie more then russian propoganda then I want moar Xant moar.

special forces? that seems to be a central issue, a not thought-out cover storys. well, even the USA have this problem (see Iraq war 03).
back to to the special forces, at the first thought it sounds somewhat plausible, but at the second thought not anymore.

what prevents aggression more, when i know that my opponents are a bunch of untrained militias orwhen they are a group of professional soldiers?


then a more recent event, the russian aid convoy. personally, it looks like another PR action to me, then again the second thought.
the aid itself comes from a unnamed/unknown organisation. thats sounds a bit fishy, is it so hard to come up any name ( i mean even "ministry of emergency situations" will do the trick here)?

there are 287 trucks, mostly half loaded, because to have some spare vehicles if a couple of them break down.
after a while this makes no sense. trucks and drivers cost money, a lot of money for help organisations which exist mostly from donation (well, it can be state founded but it is still a waste of resources).
if you really need some spare trucks, then two or three should be enough and not 100.

at the third  thought, maybe the real reason for the inconsistence is another PR stunt. now it looks like russia wants to help the people in east-ukraine but is stoped by the ukrainian government.
so in the end you still have the aid, gained some positive karma points by the population of the east ukraine which hates the government in kiew even more now.
but i think i am quite paranoid here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 09:30:20 pm
Interesting Mala, where did you get the info that 100 trucks are empty. I can't find that info, only on Ukranian sites, can you give links. Or you meant that they must be full loaded in 140 trucks and have 2-3 empty spare vehicles? If so then it seems like really PR
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 16, 2014, 09:55:33 pm
DonNicko

As per your request for how the russian media lies:
I recommend you research Serr and DaveUKR in previous posts. Both have done an admirable job of convying info from the UKR side. Dave is Russian(descent) and you might find his info more appealing, but he is very nationalistic(now) thanks to this conflict.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 09:58:38 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 16, 2014, 09:55:33 pm
DonNicko

As per your request for how the russian media lies:
I recommend you research Serr and DaveUKR in previous posts. Both have done an admirable job of convying info from the UKR side. Dave is Russian(descent) and you might find his info more appealing, but he is very nationalistic(now) thanks to this conflict.
Thanks, I know about russian propoganda, and know about western one. I requested another thing, but doen't matter now
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 16, 2014, 10:01:11 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 09:58:38 pm
Thanks, I know about russian propoganda, and know about western one. I requested another thing, but doen't matter now

Just saying DaveUKR did a very good job debunking several Russian Propganda biased BS.(with links, facts, etc)

But that stuff is buried in this good ol' 300+ page thread(longest on forum, or near it now).

Also, NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST, all the worlds problem will End forever!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 16, 2014, 10:29:42 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 16, 2014, 10:01:11 pm
Just saying DaveUKR did a very good job debunking several Russian Propganda biased BS.(with links, facts, etc)

I'm jelly, I dont have anyone coming here and saying I did a good job  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 16, 2014, 10:38:46 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 16, 2014, 09:55:33 pm
DonNicko

As per your request for how the russian media lies:
I recommend you research Serr and DaveUKR in previous posts. Both have done an admirable job of convying info from the UKR side. Dave is Russian(descent) and you might find his info more appealing, but he is very nationalistic(now) thanks to this conflict.
1. there are enough ukrainians in DRZ so he is much closer to those things than you think.
2. its not like i dont know why, but i want to read why exactly you didnt count me?  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 17, 2014, 02:21:31 am
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 16, 2014, 10:38:46 pm
1. there are enough ukrainians in DRZ so he is much closer to those things than you think.
2. its not like i dont know why, but i want to read why exactly you didnt count me?  :wink:

you post very little.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 17, 2014, 02:35:35 am
pls tone it down xant..  :rolleyes:

other than that, interesting article by editor of moscow times. (True, but a bit apologetic in its purpose)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/western-media-coverage-ukraine-crisis-russia?commentpage=1 (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/western-media-coverage-ukraine-crisis-russia?commentpage=1)

Other than that I recommend checking out http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/ (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/)

Russians probably see them as horribly pro-west, but I find them interesting, as their pov seems to be something between west and east, although more western than eastern. And they are based in Russia, so less BS. They seem to be cool-headed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 17, 2014, 08:49:08 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 16, 2014, 07:55:01 pm
If you would have asked russian citizens that before Ukr crysis, you would have gotten a list of shitton of countries from every single person for sure. Even if you asked them the same question after Ukr, quite sure that list would still remain the same.

lol
 I'm ordinary  russian citizen can you give me example of list  or something?  :)
Now I see. You are not any better than Tovi. Just on other side.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 17, 2014, 09:15:22 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 17, 2014, 02:35:35 am
pls tone it down xant..  :rolleyes:
Please suck a dick, Thomek.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: okiN on August 17, 2014, 09:33:26 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 09:30:20 pm
Interesting Mala, where did you get the info that 100 trucks are empty. I can't find that info, only on Ukranian sites, can you give links. Or you meant that they must be full loaded in 140 trucks and have 2-3 empty spare vehicles? If so then it seems like really PR

Not fully empty, but there have been lots of photos and reports from those who have been shown the trucks that many of them only had a little goods stacked up relative to the truck's capacity and were mostly empty. It seems strange, why bring so many trucks but so little goods? Could be they just wanted to make the convoy look more impressive by adding more trucks, but I dunno, might be something else behind it as well.

Here's one example: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28799627
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2014, 09:44:17 am
Quote from: Yarl on August 17, 2014, 08:49:08 am
lol
 I'm ordinary  russian citizen can you give me example of list  or something?  :)
Now I see. You are not any better than Tovi. Just on other side.

How am I not better than him? I dont make any random conspiracytheories and basically deny all the most obvious facts whenever they dont support my ideology. That was a sentence based on my opinion. You are an average russian, you cant honestly tell me that your media isnt concentrated on making Western countries look like your enemies in the eyes of your public. Ive basically seen quite a bit of russians and id say roughly 70% of them would pretty much be willing to support Russia in whatever it wanted to invade, nomatter what the reason is. Im quessing yea, you guys and your friends wouldnt, but you cant honestly say that there isnt shitton of people in your country that would.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 17, 2014, 11:53:56 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 17, 2014, 09:44:17 am
You are an average russian, you cant honestly tell me that your media isnt concentrated on making Western countries look like your enemies in the eyes of your public.
Negative things - yea, but not enemy.  Same thing on West side.

I don't know where you are getting your information but "every single person for sure has a list of..." - bullshit.
Everyday I see something like that
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

every person from the West hates russians?  I don't think so.   

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2014, 11:56:33 am
Also I think I found Tovi in another forum :lol:. Just read this shit, its pure gold:
(click to show/hide)
http://english.pravda.ru/world/ussr/13-08-2014/128268-boeing_crash_ukraine-0/

Man english pravada is one of the worst shit ive ever read in my life. Good god, it has no other news besides "the west is evil" news. All if its news is offensive agressive anti-west. It really is amazing. Other Russian pages dont seem much better. All basically concentrated on hate. Open CNN or some other western news site, its got other things to write about, mybe a few news about how Russia is bad here and there but mainly other things. My own countries news has mybe 2 new news on Russia and even those are relatively on the neutral tone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 17, 2014, 12:05:31 pm
I don't see news about the west, only about Ukraine, sometimes I see the news that western countries want to make new sanctions that's all. I don't read sites like pravda.ru twitter, vkontakte and so on because they are not mass media. Don't use them. They are fake and shit watch official mass media of Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 17, 2014, 12:18:57 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 17, 2014, 12:05:31 pm
I don't see news about the west, only about Ukraine, sometimes I see the news that western countries want to make new sanctions that's all. I don't read sites like pravda.ru twitter, vkontakte and so on because they are not mass media. Don't use them. They are fake and shit watch official mass media of Russia.
any media is shit  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 17, 2014, 03:36:42 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 13, 2014, 01:17:17 am
OMG two guys in the volunteer battalion have TATTOOS! END OF THE WORLD!

God you're retarded, Murmillus, truly.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=db9_1408277286

Hmm.. More than two guys with tattoos here for the N azi cause..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 04:08:48 pm
also i do like how people dont pay attention at red&black stuffs floating around since maydan. ofcourse blue&yellow is more popular but still...

the only good thing has been done from all this "revolution" is more people learned the hymn of their country. however our hymn sux, its definitely not passing to be hymn of anything
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2014, 04:15:55 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 17, 2014, 03:36:42 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=db9_1408277286

Hmm.. More than two guys with tattoos here for the N azi cause..
Why are they na zis? I dont see any sw astikas. All I see is the Ukrainan flags and Ukraine coat of arms with the words Smert Vorogam. Wtf is up with this na zishit? By what grounds is the government na zi. I still dont get it. Only one party has actual few fa scists in their ranks and even that one had very few seats in the parlament overall. Nationalism is not fas cism or na zism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 04:54:35 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 17, 2014, 04:15:55 pm
Why are they na zis? I dont see any sw astikas. All I see is the Ukrainan flags and Ukraine coat of arms with the words Smert Vorogam. Wtf is up with this na zishit? By what grounds is the government na zi. I still dont get it. Only one party has actual few fa scists in their ranks and even that one had very few seats in the parlament overall. Nationalism is not fas cism or na zism.
ukrainian coat of arms? this red&black is coat of arms? you must be missing something...

for being correct its nationalists-radicals. i dont like to call them as chocolate chip cookie because people can understand it wrong but thats kind of it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 17, 2014, 05:03:00 pm
While Murm accusations can not convince you on that particular video/argument; I hope it doesnt make you forget that there is ample evidence of the presence of a nazi branch in the military and law enforcement in Ukraine, especially in all the counter-insurgency special groups created by the government to deal with the rebels.


Politically, svoboda and right sector and other extreme right-wing paramilitary groups have not been able to win legitimacy after Maidan success, despite them having done part of the work toward success.
The result of the presidential election in Ukraine showed that Svoboda and right sector and other nationalist groups didnt exceed 3% of the votes!

Unfortunately, when we talk about joining the national guard and other government agencies which recruited en masse after the beginning of the unrest in Eastern Ukraine, it seems those 3% of the people were happy to help. Extremists and nationalists love to fight exterior forces.


I'm guessing than a big chunk of the civilian groups under the juridiction of the Ministry of Internal Affairs are not the most reasonable bunch and are being used by the government because they are more than happy to go in the thick of battle and do damages, or to patrol the internal network of Ukraine intimidating the people. The problem is both ideological and moral, since those groups are not only brutally efficient against the russian-backed rebels, eagerly dying for their country, but are also the ones committing abductions/rapes/murders alongside their rebel counterpart.
The Ukrainian government doesnt have control on those people they have given weapons and power to enforce the law.
After the insurgency is over, those people that have built the independance of their country, as with Maidan, will yet again have been sacrificed just to be removed afterward.

The problem is two-fold : those people might infiltrate the power in Ukraine too deep to be removed this time; and if a cleaning operation is undergone, it might start another unrest or at least a political unstability which will be detrimental to the future of Ukraine.




This is why I believe the Ukrainian people is not politically dominated by radical nationalism and neo-nazism, but radical nationalism and neo-nazism has played a part in Maidan and the counter-insurgency in the east, and is a help AND threat to the Ukrainians that I hope they are aware of.


To conclude, while I think nationalism is naturally increasing when a country is in a state of war, I think the Ukrainian people is still a healthy of mind people, capable of building their country, with or without Europe or Russia, but there is obstacles on your path and I hope you will avoid them. What I think are the biggest threats (except losing integrity of the country thanks to Russia, which is a greater threat at the moment and conceals other important matters) is being locked in Europe both politically and economically with no opportunity to ever leave it even if they only offer bad deals, and rampant right-wing and left-wing extremism which could potentally use the war to take control of various branches of the government.

Best luck to you and dont stop fighting for the good of your country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 05:26:15 pm
about nationalists.
we everyone knows why nationalism is not cool and all this stuff but the truth of life is radicals are more useful for their country.
I dont know anything about Svoboda and this war since Right Sector became more popular. about Right Sector - Yarosh is fighting on the east as a soldier unlike almost every fegit who we've been seeing on tv at last 9 months. Lyashko. I just hate this asshole and i wish him to die with suffering as soon as possible BUT he is providing resources to his battalion on the east and seems he does almost as much things as the government does. from my cousin(who mas a marine in Pheodosia and now he is in Nikolaev) i know that is Lyashko is the one and only respected politician for soldiers.

imo the only reason why ukrainians dont fall into nationalism is  one simple thing - people do care about themselfs too much but nationalism requires self-sacrifice and thats it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 17, 2014, 05:29:20 pm
It's ridiculous to expect to get rid of the whole right-wing while fighting a civil war. Even w/o the civil war the bullshit Russia is pulling on the Ukraine atm, it would be still ridiculous to expect them to get rid of the right-wing over night.
There is one single point where legitimate criticism would have been appropriate and that was the voting - oh what a surprise, they barely got any votes.

There is no reason atm to assume that the right wing IS a problem for the Ukraine. It might become one but right now they might have more pressing matters at hand. So talking about that is pretty silly...

Maybe that's the reason why Thomek gets mentioned and you don't, Butan. You're writing silly things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2014, 05:33:12 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 04:54:35 pm
for being correct its nationalists-radicals. i dont like to call them as chocolate chip cookie because people can understand it wrong but thats kind of it

Than isnt it kinda ironic its Russia that calls their nationalistic-radicalism bad, while tbh Russia itself utterly supports any nationlism and radicals and its actions, aslong as its pro-russian nationalism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 06:01:35 pm
there are a difference between their skin-heads and nationalistic active people. in russia. its just like things in my country. people are not really supporting expecive chocolate cookies but our patriots are quite radical.
however i dont give a fuck about russia cuz i live NOT in Russia and not going to.
the sad thing in ukrainina patriotism is its more like anti-Russian move than pro-Ukrainian move
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 17, 2014, 06:55:23 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 06:01:35 pm
...a cuz i live NOT in Russia and not going to.
you do not need to go anywhere) Russia itself will come to you)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 17, 2014, 07:03:41 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 06:01:35 pm
however i dont give a fuck about russia cuz i live NOT in Russia and not going to.

You sure? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 17, 2014, 07:06:18 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 06:01:35 pm
the sad thing in ukrainina patriotism is its more like anti-Russian move than pro-Ukrainian move
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 17, 2014, 07:18:36 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 17, 2014, 07:06:18 pm
Madness :)
Will CNN show dat lovely event?

Только представьте если что-то подобное произойдет в России сейчас, сколько было бы тут слюней от местных геополитиков диванных ахахха
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 17, 2014, 07:26:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 17, 2014, 07:06:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

Okay thats totally fucked up..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 17, 2014, 07:33:15 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 17, 2014, 07:06:18 pm
(click to show/hide)
to be honest its not the most retarded thing that is happening.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 17, 2014, 08:14:51 pm
you have to see the big picture.
they do not switch into the hate mode because they are just in the mood for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 18, 2014, 06:34:38 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 16, 2014, 03:23:59 pm
I just want people not to forget that incident where armed russian convoy crossed the border and were destroyed by Ukranian army. Because gensec Nato confirmed that, and some other countries, lol but USA didn't confirm that. But ok let's see how this fake will disappear later)
Well, this fake becoming fake more, now Lysenko says that he can't give the information about the place where they destroyed russian conwoy. Ok what do you think guys about it, Petr Poroshenko confirmed that and said to David Cameron, Nato secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen confirmed the incursion. So what again no proof needed? Any NATO propoganda?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 18, 2014, 11:33:50 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 18, 2014, 06:34:38 am
Well, this fake becoming fake more, now Lysenko says that he can't give the information about the place where they destroyed russian conwoy. Ok what do you think guys about it, Petr Poroshenko confirmed that and said to David Cameron, Nato secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen confirmed the incursion. So what again no proof needed? Any NATO propoganda?
Everybody lies...

Ask youself this: why should I trust one or the other government/side more, than the Journos, who HAVE the reputation of factual correctness (even if interpretation might be biased)?

As to the place where they were or were not destroyed...no info on that. It might as well be a propaganda move by Ukraine, but the downplaying of the event afterwards might mean that there is a willingness to avoid direct confrontation with russia, so there MIGHT be something to be confronting it about. Its muddy and smokey. What is fucked up is that official russian possition is "we are not supplying anything" and "noone is crossing the border". When you compare that with http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/16/ukraine-rebels-russia_n_5684352.html and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3kPVbd4VAM ...

There is one kind of a lie, used by governments a lot, which is "we will work for you, our people and will make your life better, and not harm you, etc." and then there is another kind of lie which is "noone is crossing our borders and we are not stirring up separatism in neighboring friendly country" MEANWHILE in the background of said speaker being filmed - tanks and military stuff rolls into the said friendly country... THIS is fucked up.

Here is a proof of journalist unprofessional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd-er0k1YQo
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 12:51:34 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 18, 2014, 11:33:50 am
Everybody lies...

Ask youself this: why should I trust one or the other government/side more, than the Journos,
because he gets paid for fame? scandalous article have more views?
and i do not remember a single case of the dismissal of a journalist after refuting fake articles.
Especially in this case, you can always put the blame on a conspiracy.

 "Tonight I went out to take a shit in the open field, and there Putin threw 150 armored vehicles across the border, unfortunately my video camera, mobile phone, tablet computer remained in the tent, but take my word, and I'll give it confirmed a couple of pictures from the Internet"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 18, 2014, 01:13:01 pm
"Top DNR official says 1200 fighters "trained in russia for four months" have crossed and ready to fight"

https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500547590547857408 (http://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500547590547857408)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 01:46:21 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 18, 2014, 01:13:01 pm
(click to show/hide)

"Top DNR official says that Ukrainian army abandonned more than 100 tanks, APC, Grad etc (only for last few battles)"
" Top DNR official saysthat Ukrainian army are preparing an ambush on RF convoy and mined roads"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 18, 2014, 02:39:15 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 12:51:34 pm
because he gets paid for fame? scandalous article have more views?
and i do not remember a single case of the dismissal of a journalist after refuting fake articles.
Especially in this case, you can always put the blame on a conspiracy.

 "Tonight I went out to take a shit in the open field, and there Putin threw 150 armored vehicles across the border, unfortunately my video camera, mobile phone, tablet computer remained in the tent, but take my word, and I'll give it confirmed a couple of pictures from the Internet"
One can eat ones bread from publicity as long as one is not caught lying. Besides - afaik he was not alone there.

You personally Vovka - do you think there is no separatist training + supplying going on in russia then having them cross the border to fight this bullshit proxy conflict?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 03:05:59 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 18, 2014, 02:39:15 pm
One can eat ones bread from publicity as long as one is not caught lying. Besides - afaik he was not alone there.
And none of them was able to make a video, and it is in our time when even the 5-year-olds make a video and post it in YouTube. Same story with the convoy. When I see 3 half-empty truck, I want to see the rest of the 297 to make the conclusion. But maybe I want too much from the media.

Quote from: Kuujis on August 18, 2014, 02:39:15 pm
You personally Vovka - do you think there is no separatist training + supplying going on in russia then having them cross the border to fight this bullshit proxy conflict?

 Iam sure there is a lot training camps in any country and in Russia, including. And it is unlikely they are interested in what country then you will go. For two months they are in the best case will learn how not to die in the first 5 minutes of battle. But for me two different things, "Russia / Putin training/supplying" and "training/suplying on/from the territory of Russia"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 18, 2014, 03:28:40 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 03:05:59 pm
And none of them was able to make a video, and it is in our time when even the 5-year-olds make a video and post it in YouTube. Same story with the convoy. When I see 3 half-empty truck, I want to see the rest of the 297 to make the conclusion. But maybe I want too much from the media.
You are an interesting guy... I'm not sure there are a lot of guys willing to look through 277 empty truck pictures, but I digress. As to making a video - who knows why they did not. My OWN most usual reason for not making a video of somethin awesome is "lack of space in device"... In any case - does it invalidate the account? Does the lack of "video made" invalidate OSCE reporting for you too?

Quote from: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 03:05:59 pm
Iam sure there is a lot training camps in any country and in Russia, including. And it is unlikely they are interested in what country then you will go. For two months they are in the best case will learn how not to die in the first 5 minutes of battle. But for me two different things, "Russia / Putin training/supplying" and "training/suplying on/from the territory of Russia"
Ok, except for 3rd world countries - do you know of any additional countries, where actions on government level are not needed to support thousands of trainees? Or in what other country volunteers are able to supply themselves with BUK style military technology? And in the end - letting guys cross border with all this weaponry and equipement... Except for parades - do you get a lot of guys walking around with bullet proof wests and kalashnikovs + driving APC's in other part or russia as well?
However - congratz on NOT being Murmi with the outright denials... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 18, 2014, 04:34:18 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 03:05:59 pm
And none of them was able to make a video, and it is in our time when even the 5-year-olds make a video and post it in YouTube. Same story with the convoy. When I see 3 half-empty truck, I want to see the rest of the 297 to make the conclusion. But maybe I want too much from the media.

 ...

or you could use the power of mathematics.
officially there are 2000 tons of aid supplies, divided by 280 vehicles makes 7.14 tons per lorry. in other words half empty (and this is a generous estimation).


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 18, 2014, 04:38:11 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 18, 2014, 04:34:18 pm
or you could use the power of mathematics.
officially there are 2000 tons of aid supplies, divided by 280 vehicles makes 7.14 tons per lorry. in other words half empty (and this is a generous estimation).
THEY ARE BRINGING AIR FULL OF PUTLERS CARE, how can you NOT see it... oh... wait... its air. Nevermind. They are bringing trucks and thats what counts... at least till 280... not counting the APC's ofc... those are not for civilians... or maybe they are...

P.S. Sorry, the amount of puns this humanitarian aid deserves just could not be ignored...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 18, 2014, 05:12:43 pm
Dont know much polish but as I understood russian military vehicles, AA,  simply cross the border on the eyes of journalists....Who knows polish pls translate it

Also as always "nice" comments from russians under this video, something like: Why Stalin did not wipe polish scums?...Poland  is licking US ass!....Polish ppl the same shit as Ukrainians, we need to bomb them, etc.   :rolleyes:

Why so much hate? You like to blame US or EU, burn their flags etc. Did US or EU annex your territories? Maybe they are killing your ppl? NO...And you wondering why ppl in Ukraine burnt scarecrow of Putin? lol

Hypocricy...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 18, 2014, 06:26:35 pm
(click to show/hide)
seems you just forgot from what everything got started.

mostly i like the second video. what a retard created such bullshit... thats just a propaganda. random phrases taken and grouped into right counstruction to look smart and show the position of the creater.

i'll recommend you to pay attention at our country and at Europe cuz we are europeans !1

about comments from russians in this topic... well hopefuly every russian who is replying here are smart people unlike the large ammount of people who you blame. in our crpg community i found one dude who really supports russia in all this and ofcourse his opinion is so onesided and stupid. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 18, 2014, 09:16:28 pm
Mwahahaha I didn't understand what he said on the first video, but I didn't see vehicles crossing the border on this video

One of Malaysian mass media wrote this
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20961
what do you think about it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 09:35:43 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 18, 2014, 04:34:18 pm
or you could use the power of mathematics.
officially there are 2000 tons of aid supplies, divided by 280 vehicles makes 7.14 tons per lorry. in other words half empty (and this is a generous estimation).
google give me dat
(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

KamAZ tilt

Load capacity of 10 tons
Dimensions of the body:
length of 6.1 m
width 2.4 m
height of 2.5 m
volume of body  38 м3
Number of passengers 2

aslo do not forget about the density and the occupied volume:
for expl
bulk density of wheat -770 kg/м3 so for 8t (1 of the drivers talked about 8t dont know why, looks like they use only 80% from max
carrying capacity) it will be ~10m3 so its only 1/3-1/4 from full volume.


 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 18, 2014, 10:47:27 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 18, 2014, 09:16:28 pm
Mwahahaha I didn't understand what he said on the first video, but I didn't see vehicles crossing the border on this video

One of Malaysian mass media wrote this
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20961
what do you think about it?

Probably my thoughts about it are the same as yours about intercepted radio-talks of terrorists about MH17, or changing characteristics of SU 25 on wiki, or messages from terrorists that they shot down ukrainian AN 26 which appeared as MH 17
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 19, 2014, 08:33:45 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 18, 2014, 09:35:43 pm
google give me dat
(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

KamAZ tilt

Load capacity of 10 tons
Dimensions of the body:
length of 6.1 m
width 2.4 m
height of 2.5 m
volume of body  38 м3
Number of passengers 2

aslo do not forget about the density and the occupied volume:
for expl
bulk density of wheat -770 kg/м3 so for 8t (1 of the drivers talked about 8t dont know why, looks like they use only 80% from max
carrying capacity) it will be ~10m3 so its only 1/3-1/4 from full volume.

You are looking into an 10 wheeler, whereas most of the trucks in question are 10 wheeler pullers + 4 or 8 wheel trailes, whose payload is more to the tune of 40 to 80t. 8 tones per truck is... well... "pakazucha" (pardon my kirilica  8-) ).  Below is the "latest and greatest" in Kamaz offerings, but I'm not maintaining the 85 tonees of semi-trailer, which is identified as its capability.

http://kamaz.net/en/vehicle/serial/40
Weights and Load capacities
Curb vehicle weight, kg    11850
Gross vehicle weight, kg    33500
Road train gross weight, kg    97000
Fifth wheel load, kg    21500
Gross semi-trailer weight, kg    85000
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 19, 2014, 02:33:29 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 18, 2014, 04:34:18 pm
officially there are 2000 tons of aid supplies, divided by 280 vehicles makes 7.14 tons per lorry. in other words half empty (and this is a generous estimation).


If they were trying to transport hidden cargo, why would they not just "officially" say that they have 4000 tons of aid supplies then?
The inspections would show added hidden cargo weight.

Its more probable that there is really 2000 tons of supplies, but some could not be what they are.
Using 280 vehicles for all this must be explained by something else than all this discussion about capacity/density  :rolleyes:  look somewhere else, for example, more vehicles = more impressive help = more media coverage = less media coverage in other places.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 19, 2014, 02:37:36 pm
Wild speculation, but maybe they are planning to extract Russian operatives with the convoy.. If they have a lot of them in Ukraine, it would make sense if they are pulling out covertly, otherwise it would be obvious. It's not so easy to retreat in a hidden fashion otherwise. 

chaotic retreat, US in vietnam:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 19, 2014, 03:03:57 pm
If Russia has no problem sending in hundreds of top gear armored vehicles and thousands of mercenaries to get in Ukraine with never a photo, why would they need white painted red cross trucks heavily monitored and media covered to get out?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 19, 2014, 05:00:13 pm
I think they are going to loot vegetables, meat and cheese... Thats why they need mooooaaaaar trucks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28849726

Meanwhile in Ukraine - not sure how unbiased this source is, but http://news.liga.net/news/politics/2970594-vyzhivshie_pereselentsy_soobshchili_podrobnosti_ataki_boevikov_video.htm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 19, 2014, 07:01:14 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 19, 2014, 05:00:13 pm
I think they are going to loot vegetables, meat and cheese... Thats why they need mooooaaaaar trucks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28849726

Meanwhile in Ukraine - not sure how unbiased this source is, but http://news.liga.net/news/politics/2970594-vyzhivshie_pereselentsy_soobshchili_podrobnosti_ataki_boevikov_video.htm

yep, terorrists shot cars with refugees which were leaving the city under white flags.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 19, 2014, 11:24:42 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 19, 2014, 05:00:13 pm
I think they are going to loot vegetables, meat and cheese... Thats why they need mooooaaaaar trucks.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28849726

Meanwhile in Ukraine - not sure how unbiased this source is, but http://news.liga.net/news/politics/2970594-vyzhivshie_pereselentsy_soobshchili_podrobnosti_ataki_boevikov_video.htm
smart idea evacuate civilian on military trucks
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 02:20:11 am
Ukrainian soldiers badly beaten up, straight from the front:


They say they fighting RF military, not rebels. (Seriously watch the vid. These are not some lying politicians.)

Guys.. How thick are you in the head? I'm starting to believe I'm an idiot cause I keep arguing with you. You are either brainwashed or just hard core nationalists, repeating kremlins lies for fun.

Maybe you think you are kicking americas ass? You are not. Just fucking over your brothers the Ukrainians.


Quote from: Butan on August 19, 2014, 03:03:57 pm
If Russia has no problem sending in hundreds of top gear armored vehicles and thousands of mercenaries to get in Ukraine with never a photo..

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-182-russian-aid-to-enter-ukraine-with-kievs-approval/#3854

Tons of recent pics of RF gear going into and out of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 20, 2014, 06:59:23 am
Thomek, Thomek stop getting brainwashed. He says that more then 5000 or 10000 troops of Ukranian army were killed in this ATO, but government says that it is only near 400. Interesting how he knew that he was fighting against russian, if you will see russian soldiers and east ukranian one, you will not see any difference. Maybe he came to the soldiers of separatists while shooting and asked them where are they from? Maybe, but...
About pictures eh... didn't see crossing the border.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 20, 2014, 07:23:44 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 16, 2014, 09:55:33 pm
DonNicko

... Dave is Russian(descent) and you might find his info more appealing, but he is very nationalistic(now) thanks to this conflict.
He (DaveUkr) is not Russian. He is  ordinary ordinary rusofob, He is "Вырусь".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 20, 2014, 08:26:35 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 02:20:11 am
(click to show/hide)
Immediately write a letter to Obama and Merkel and the OSCE. They are looking for evidence in the wrong place, let them look YouTube and social networks, all evidence of criminal and evil dids of chocolate chip cookie Russia there.
 about brotherhood of nations, it died with the Soviet Union, Ukraine has no brotherly Ukrainian people, there are only stuck Russian there. 20 years of hard work.
nice that you came down to us poor people (( I think we should be grateful  :P
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 20, 2014, 09:04:18 am
Quote from: DonNicko on August 20, 2014, 06:59:23 am
Interesting how he knew that he was fighting against russian, if you will see russian soldiers and east ukranian one, you will not see any difference.

Interesting that you would admit that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 20, 2014, 12:21:22 pm
meanwhile in Moskow

http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3407988-na-vysotke-v-moskve-neyzvestnye-vyvesyly-ukraynskyi-flah
http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3408103-povesyvshyi-flah-ukrayny-na-moskovskuui-vysotku-spryhnul-s-nee-s-parashuitom-smy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 20, 2014, 12:29:20 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on August 20, 2014, 12:21:22 pm
meanwhile in Moskow

http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3407988-na-vysotke-v-moskve-neyzvestnye-vyvesyly-ukraynskyi-flah
http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3408103-povesyvshyi-flah-ukrayny-na-moskovskuui-vysotku-spryhnul-s-nee-s-parashuitom-smy
Article 214 CC RF  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 12:31:24 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 02:20:11 am
Just fucking over your brothers the Ukrainians.
brothers? Ukrainians?
seems all of you just forget how it got started or just new here.

from the russian natiolistic point of view they ARE helping brothers ukrainians who got na zi government. from ukrainian point of view - 1)before Crimea: DAMN THIS MAFIA IN GOVERNMENT!DAMN RUSSIA! GET YOUR HANDS OFF US!THEY DONT LET US IN EUROPE!WE'LL BECAME COOL WHEN WE BECAME A MEMEBER OF EU 2)while Crimea and after Crimea: RUSSIANS GET THE HELL OUT OF [enter name]! FUCK U RUSSIA, YOU ARE NOT OUT BROTHERS(definitely those islamic tatars are, aha)! ПУТИН - ХУЙЛО!

for real - both are wrong what is quite obvious. the question is who started bullshitting first... and if ask to source you'll see that its kinda not russian fault that all this shit is happening.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 20, 2014, 12:36:37 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 20, 2014, 12:29:20 pm
Article 214 CC RF  :P

What? is that banned for you?


Москва НеНаша, просто видео....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 12:45:22 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 12:31:24 pm
its kinda not russian fault that all this shit is happening.

uhm. No, not at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 20, 2014, 01:02:24 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 12:31:24 pm
for real - both are wrong what is quite obvious. the question is who started bullshitting first... and if ask to source you'll see that its kinda not russian fault that all this shit is happening.

Depends what shit you are implying to. Maidan and events related to that no, but the current battles and civilian casualties in Eastern-Ukraine definately. Noone wouldnt have raised a single gun if Russia hadnt forced so much propaganda down Donetsks peoples throats in the first place. Russia basically brainwashed them into thinking they had no other choice. That if they stayed with Kiev they would be enslaved by a na zigovernment thats being backed by NATO and lying filthy Western EU scum. If Russia had played it entirely differently, as in supported Kiev and calmed the people, quite possible things would have been pretty okay by now. But no, Kremlin is known to be a quite bitter asshole, played its own game and now a lot of people died.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 20, 2014, 01:07:39 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 12:31:24 pm
brothers? Ukrainians?
seems all of you just forget how it got started or just new here.

from the russian natiolistic point of view they ARE helping brothers ukrainians who got na zi government. from ukrainian point of view - 1)before Crimea: DAMN THIS MAFIA IN GOVERNMENT!DAMN RUSSIA! GET YOUR HANDS OFF US!THEY DONT LET US IN EUROPE!WE'LL BECAME COOL WHEN WE BECAME A MEMEBER OF EU 2)while Crimea and after Crimea: RUSSIANS GET THE HELL OUT OF [enter name]! FUCK U RUSSIA, YOU ARE NOT OUT BROTHERS(definitely those islamic tatars are, aha)! ПУТИН - ХУЙЛО!

for real - both are wrong what is quite obvious. the question is who started bullshitting first... and if ask to source you'll see that its kinda not russian fault that all this shit is happening.
Oh yeah, it's totally Ukraine's fault Russia invaded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 01:16:41 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 20, 2014, 01:02:24 pm
Depends what shit you are implying to. Maidan and events related to that no, but the current battles and civilian casualties in Eastern-Ukraine definately. Noone wouldnt have raised a single gun if Russia hadnt forced so much propaganda down Donetsks peoples throats in the first place. Russia basically brainwashed them into thinking they had no other choice. That if they stayed with Kiev they would be enslaved by a na zigovernment thats being backed by NATO and lying filthy Western EU scum. If Russia had played it entirely differently, as in supported Kiev and calmed the people, quite possible things would have been pretty okay by now. But no, Kremlin is known to be a quite bitter asshole, played its own game and now a lot of people died.
well i just still feel it like a solid chain of events. thats why the first side who started is to blame imo. yes, now we can call it as Ukraine but THIS Ukraine does exist just for half of year.
Quote from: Tibe on August 20, 2014, 01:02:24 pm
If Russia had played it entirely differently, as in supported Kiev and calmed the people, quite possible things would have been pretty okay by now.
well i think so too. from another point - opponent "was playing" too impudently and agressive. pro-eastern support looked like as farce even when it wasnt. i just cannot blame russia after the fact how the government that was legitimately elected was just kicked off and that's been called as democratic way of things... pff. how can you be on the any side? both dont give a fuck about your interests but personally THIS ukraine just betrayed part of citizen THATS WHY I hate it and will never support it while the shit is going this way.

Molly, go fuck your turkish boyfriend.... or maybe he is fucking you in your great democratic german ass. its complitelly not ur EU-scum business cuz you dont live in ukraine and you'll never get the troubles with all this on your own life. a while ago you did enough to make all this shit possible with your support to maydan. and the fucking worst thing is you will never feel sorry for it cuz you dont think that you have to.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 20, 2014, 01:17:56 pm
Saboteurs who are at war against the Ukrainian army, and against militants take part in operations in Donbass. It was declared in interview to "The Ukrainian truth" by the colonel general of the Ukrainian army Vladimir Ruban.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 20, 2014, 01:20:45 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 01:16:41 pm
well i just still feel it like a solid chain of events. thats why the first side who started is to blame imo. yes, now we can call it as Ukraine but THIS Ukraine does exist just for half of year.
Bullshit. Government and country borders are 2 separate things.
You get to choose the first one but you can't just choose the 2nd one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 01:34:07 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2014, 01:20:45 pm
Bullshit. Government and country borders are 2 separate things.
You get to choose the first one but you can't just choose the 2nd one.
country and motherland are different things. being a patriot of the country is a bullshit.
countryes are formal organisations which FOR REAL doesnt exist in real world. just the bunch of paper makes them real but only as organisations.

you cannot just switch the country? do you know that people who older than 23 years havent born in the Ukraine? but they got switched. yes, after second voting it was their choise BUT thats just one of proofs how formal the countrys are.

for Zero_Tolerance
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 20, 2014, 02:05:53 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 02:20:11 am
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-182-russian-aid-to-enter-ukraine-with-kievs-approval/#3854

Tons of recent pics of RF gear going into and out of Ukraine.

Forget the "with never a photo", there is photos indeed; but fact is your previous speculation has no basis since they can come in and out the way they want with more chance of not being detected.


Quote from: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 02:20:11 am
Ukrainian soldiers badly beaten up, straight from the front:


They say they fighting RF military, not rebels. (Seriously watch the vid. These are not some lying politicians.)

Why do you think volunteers and conscripts have a better insight on whats happening and what they dealt with? I watched the video and I dont think they lie, I just think they are repeating what they heard everywhere around them that fits their fight. Thats basic frontline hard chatting.
They could be right, they could be wrong, its not a scoop anyway.
What I collected is that those guys have very low morale and apparent low organisation.



Quote from: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 02:20:11 am
Guys.. How thick are you in the head? I'm starting to believe I'm an idiot cause I keep arguing with you. You are either brainwashed or just hard core nationalists, repeating kremlins lies for fun.
Maybe you think you are kicking americas ass? You are not. Just fucking over your brothers the Ukrainians.

I dont know who you're talking to when you say "guys"?
Everyone here accept the probability of russian involvement, we dont all agree on the level of involvement and on local events.
Those that dont you best ignore them.

I would appreciate if we didnt have a "brainwashing" insult for one FULL page, especially since there is arguments which could be used to insult everyone from both sides of the fences of brainwashing. It gets tedious.

And one last thing, if you think americas isnt involved at all, you're wrong. Of course its the Ukrainians paying with their lives, but thats a civil war, of course Ukrainians are dying. A civil war with unconventional warfare... we could need a new name for this kind of war!


*very late edits ftw*  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 20, 2014, 02:07:33 pm
Funny picture Dark_Blade ))))) thx. It seems that you are living in the place where dont want to be at all, and if you dont have opportunity to change it, it`s sad/ You`re like on the crossroad... Anyway I hope war did not came to your city and you are fine, I just forgot where do you live, Dnipropetrovsk ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 02:17:47 pm
Zero_Tolerance, almost, Kriviy Rig, its this ... hm... "oblast".
man, i born in Ukraine and i am even glad a bit to be so(knowladge of 2 languages just because you born in such place and understanding of several slav languages... thats really great imo). ofcourse in future i would like to go to some other country(like almost everyone ukrainian wants to) but actually i was pretty fine with ukraine before Maydan. i am just getting sick of people who lies VERY sweet and who brings the worst shit.
imo NO COUNTRY worth anyones life. as i said not once - i disagree with separatists and complitelly not supporting them.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 20, 2014, 02:32:59 pm
Quote from: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 02:17:47 pm
Zero_Tolerance, almost, Kriviy Rig, its this ... hm... "oblast".

So, it`s good )))  we have what we have, and must make decisions based on today`s situation.....

Я з Вінниці xD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 20, 2014, 02:44:37 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on August 20, 2014, 02:32:59 pm
Я з Вінниці xD
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 20, 2014, 03:07:49 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2014, 01:20:45 pm
Bullshit. Government and country borders are 2 separate things.
You get to choose the first one but you can't just choose the 2nd one.

unless you are russian
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 20, 2014, 05:51:50 pm
I recommend agnatic seniority succession to solve all issues.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 20, 2014, 08:18:37 pm
I don't even
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 20, 2014, 08:40:37 pm
Putin loves his de jure imperial claims.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 20, 2014, 10:26:33 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on August 20, 2014, 07:23:44 am
He (DaveUkr) is not Russian. He is  ordinary ordinary rusofob, He is "Вырусь".

That's kind of sums up the fucked up logic of some certain people. If I don't support Putin - I'm not Russian, i'm fascist russophobic nаzi :rolleyes: Once I was born Russian - I can't change my nationality. But I won't argue with you since you're a small time. Most of us remember your posts like "there is no Russian military in Crimea", you have to be brave to post here after such assumptions. Or else.

I had some extremely boring free time recently so I was thinking about things and occasionally recalled one of Dark Blade's posts (No, I'm not thinking about c-rpg forums all the time, I'm not a nerd :D ). And what came to my mind is that people who argue about West or East (EU/NATO or Russia) are using different levels of argument. One speaks about quality of life and the other one speaks about culture.
If someone says that Ukraine can easily exist without any relations with Russia then he has a bad knowledge about how things worked in the past. The integration to EU is a good thing in a long run but is very dangerous in the short run economically-wise. Putin is trying to untie Ukraine rapidly to make it economy crush to tie Ukraine harder in future. There are a lot of economical ties that exist to exist (that's like buying something from kids just to buy it and give money), a lot of production that is used exclusively by Russia (mostly because it's not standardised and/or outdated for the rest of the world). It's a good plan but a risky one. If Ukraine somehow manages to survive this, Russia is going to have hard times losing such an important area of influence. That's why I don't like Putin, he's gambling with the future of his people pretending to have everything passing by his plan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:02:25 am
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729647/Tanks-artillery-1-200-fighters-march-east-Ukraine-Russia-days-Putin-set-meet-Ukrainian-president-peace-talks.html?offset=0&max=100&reply=61905765&jumpTo=comment-61905765

OOps what's that? Ukrainian government back tracking on its bullshit unproven propaganda? I'd have never guessed it.. Oh and it's a tiny article right down the bottom of the page, not one of those HUGE page topping stories I've become accustom to from the Daily Mail when happily spreading Ukrainian government propaganda.

I love my views being vindicated time and time again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:08:34 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 20, 2014, 10:26:33 pm
That's kind of sums up the fucked up logic of some certain people. If I don't support Putin - I'm not Russian, i'm fascist russophobic nаzi :rolleyes: Once I was born Russian - I can't change my nationality. But I won't argue with you since you're a small time. Most of us remember your posts like "there is no Russian military in Crimea", you have to be brave to post here after such assumptions. Or else.

I had some extremely boring free time recently so I was thinking about things and occasionally recalled one of Dark Blade's posts (No, I'm not thinking about c-rpg forums all the time, I'm not a nerd :D ). And what came to my mind is that people who argue about West or East (EU/NATO or Russia) are using different levels of argument. One speaks about quality of life and the other one speaks about culture.
If someone says that Ukraine can easily exist without any relations with Russia then he has a bad knowledge about how things worked in the past. The integration to EU is a good thing in a long run but is very dangerous in the short run economically-wise. Putin is trying to untie Ukraine rapidly to make it economy crush to tie Ukraine harder in future. There are a lot of economical ties that exist to exist (that's like buying something from kids just to buy it and give money), a lot of production that is used exclusively by Russia (mostly because it's not standardised and/or outdated for the rest of the world). It's a good plan but a risky one. If Ukraine somehow manages to survive this, Russia is going to have hard times losing such an important area of influence. That's why I don't like Putin, he's gambling with the future of his people pretending to have everything passing by his plan.

The Ukrainian economy was in dire straits even when a pro-Russian puppet was in power, I've not heard of that theory before Dave but it makes for interesting reading, in all my own personal reading of Russia, Ukraine ect what strikes me the most is Russia's justified ambition to protect its borders, influence and sovereignty, which is the primary geopolitical interest of the Russian government, I don't see how destroying its neighbouring country would play into that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:13:14 am
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2014, 01:20:45 pm
Bullshit. Government and country borders are 2 separate things.
You get to choose the first one but you can't just choose the 2nd one.

Yeah right, the little people choose their government... In our dreams maybe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:15:13 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 20, 2014, 02:20:11 am
Ukrainian soldiers badly beaten up, straight from the front:


They say they fighting RF military, not rebels. (Seriously watch the vid. These are not some lying politicians.)

Guys.. How thick are you in the head? I'm starting to believe I'm an idiot cause I keep arguing with you. You are either brainwashed or just hard core nationalists, repeating kremlins lies for fun.

Maybe you think you are kicking americas ass? You are not. Just fucking over your brothers the Ukrainians.


http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-182-russian-aid-to-enter-ukraine-with-kievs-approval/#3854

Tons of recent pics of RF gear going into and out of Ukraine.

Both sides are pulling in mercenaries Thomek.

Recently an article in liveleak described how an American mercenary was killed by artillery fire whom was fighting for the Ukrainian government, it has also been mentioned on some articles/websites Neo-N azis flooding in from neighbouring countries to fight for the Ukrainian government including a Polish Unit. Both sides are playing dirty Thomek.

http://www.politicalforum.com/latest-us-world-news/368169-losses-ukrainian-forces.html

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 21, 2014, 09:48:33 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:02:25 am
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729647/Tanks-artillery-1-200-fighters-march-east-Ukraine-Russia-days-Putin-set-meet-Ukrainian-president-peace-talks.html?offset=0&max=100&reply=61905765&jumpTo=comment-61905765

OOps what's that? Ukrainian government back tracking on its bullshit unproven propaganda? I'd have never guessed it.. Oh and it's a tiny article right down the bottom of the page, not one of those HUGE page topping stories I've become accustom to from the Daily Mail when happily spreading Ukrainian government propaganda.

I love my views being vindicated time and time again.

I'm so sorry to bring this to you, but a single case neither prooves, neither disprooves a general rule. Ask Butan, he is an expert on this kind of BS. Even if putler admits in say 12 months, that his special forces were in Ukraine, you will still say "they were there to save children from crucifiction". So you may love your "views" as much as you want to, but I do not understand what's so significant about this?

Frankly - both Ukraine and russia are sides in this conflict, thus - natural propaganda sources. THATS why if I was as smart as you are I would look at OSCE sources, who claimed, that there are bands of camouflaged men crossing border, OR I would look at international journalists, who are saying, that they saw heavily armed troops crossing border from russian side to Ukraine. What are your sources for your "vindicated view"?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 21, 2014, 11:56:10 am
Murmillus have you heard of the modify button?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:02:53 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 21, 2014, 09:48:33 am
I'm so sorry to bring this to you, but a single case neither prooves, neither disprooves a general rule. Ask Butan, he is an expert on this kind of BS. Even if putler admits in say 12 months, that his special forces were in Ukraine, you will still say "they were there to save children from crucifiction". So you may love your "views" as much as you want to, but I do not understand what's so significant about this?

Frankly - both Ukraine and russia are sides in this conflict, thus - natural propaganda sources. THATS why if I was as smart as you are I would look at OSCE sources, who claimed, that there are bands of camouflaged men crossing border, OR I would look at international journalists, who are saying, that they saw heavily armed troops crossing border from russian side to Ukraine. What are your sources for your "vindicated view"?  :rolleyes:

What is significant is that the article states that Ukrainian politicians admit they have no evidence of their claims. So instead of everyone believing everything the Ukrainian government says, NATO igniting a war over such lies and dragging the world into world war 3, they've decided to own up.

Russians and other mercenaries are fighting for the rebels in Ukraine, as mercenaries are fighting for the Ukrainian government, as I said on a previous post both sides are playing dirty. However if Ukraine proves that Russia has "Invaded" Ukraine then NATO has threatened military action, and that's the kind of shit we can all do without no?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 21, 2014, 01:07:54 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 21, 2014, 11:56:10 am
Murmillus have you heard of the modify button?

He's too afraid to pull off a @dnrpress
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 21, 2014, 01:17:36 pm
Quotes Daily Mail - sees his points proven... :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 21, 2014, 01:40:36 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 21, 2014, 09:48:33 am
I'm so sorry to bring this to you, but a single case neither prooves, neither disprooves a general rule. Ask Butan, he is an expert on this kind of BS.

Are you complimenting me for having the habit of not extending a local event to an absolute general truth?  :shock: 

Because yes, the latest "russian column spotted" might be a fraud, but it doesnt mean there has been no column of russian forces which have entered the territory of Ukraine in the past, Murmillus.
Still, Kuujis, it proves one thing: lies comes from both sides, if you want to know the truth, you have to take no side and analyze thoroughly. Because no government is to be trusted if you seek the truth.


"The rulers of the state are the only persons who ought to have the privilege of lying."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 21, 2014, 01:49:00 pm
This is true, both ukrainian and RF are lying "habitually" about this. They are two nations at war, from societies where governmental lying has long traditions. (Yes, far far more and worse than western government lying.)

Credible western media seldom straight up lies. They can avoid subjects, be biased, be ignorant or naive, behave like sheep etc.. But straight up lying is rare.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 21, 2014, 02:05:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 21, 2014, 01:40:36 pm
Are you complimenting me for having the habit of not extending a local event to an absolute general truth?  :shock: 
YES!  :twisted: Although I agree to disagree on other interpretations  8-)

Quote from: Butan on August 21, 2014, 01:40:36 pm
Because yes, the latest "russian column spotted" might be a fraud, but it doesnt mean there has been no column of russian forces which have entered the territory of Ukraine in the past, Murmillus.
Still, Kuujis, it proves one thing: lies comes from both sides, if you want to know the truth, you have to take no side and analyze thoroughly. Because no government is to be trusted if you seek the truth.


"The rulers of the state are the only persons who ought to have the privilege of lying."
Well... don't tell me you are too lazy to read :P
Quote from: Kuujis on August 21, 2014, 09:48:33 am
<...>
Frankly - both Ukraine and russia are sides in this conflict, thus - natural propaganda sources. <...>

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:02:53 pm
What is significant is that the article states that Ukrainian politicians admit they have no evidence of their claims. So instead of everyone believing everything the Ukrainian government says, NATO igniting a war over such lies and dragging the world into world war 3, they've decided to own up.

Let me rephrase that:
What is significant is that the article other articles states that Ukrainian politicians admit russia cannot admit its been lying again and again (well, Crimea is an exception I guess), even though they have no there are evidence of their claims being false. So instead of everyone believing everything the Ukrainian government putlers media says, NATO russia igniting a war over such lies and dragging the world into world war 3, they've decided to own up they will still never take responsibility and act as grownups.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 21, 2014, 01:02:53 pm
Russians and other mercenaries are fighting for the rebels in Ukraine, as mercenaries are fighting for the Ukrainian government, as I said on a previous post both sides are playing dirty. However if Ukraine proves that Russia has "Invaded" Ukraine then NATO has threatened military action, and that's the kind of shit we can all do without no?
Let me ask you a few questions:
1. Almost broke Ukraine paying mercenaries? Do you find it as likely as a thief former president, who ran away to russia, being forced to cough up his cash by the very annoyed putler and being forced to supply and fund separatists... Anyway - do you have any reliable sources to claim this? Playing dirty propaganda is one thing, which IS obvious, claiming that there are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tights fighting on Ukraine side is on another level of "funny" altogether.
2. NATO explicitly excluded option of military intervention, as Ukraine is not NATO member state. Technical and arms support is another thing, which IS on the table and is IMO justified as much as supplying russia with mistral warships. Or do you object to that too? I do not see, why someone should NOT support Ukraine just because "it may end up with WW3". Vice versa - this "let him have it, maybe it will be enough" mentality is what led to WW2, check your history lessons.
3. "Eating shit is almost the same as eating chocolate (see 2g1cup videos  :oops: ), and we can all agree that chocolate is tasty". That is how you constructed your last sentence. Looks funny though. Cheap, but funny.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 21, 2014, 02:16:36 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 21, 2014, 01:49:00 pm
This is true, both ukrainian and RF are lying "habitually" about this. They are two nations at war, from societies where governmental lying has long traditions. (Yes, far far more and worse than western government lying.)

Credible western media seldom straight up lies. They can avoid subjects, be biased, be ignorant or naive, behave like sheep etc.. But straight up lying is rare.


They may have a culture-shaped doctrine of war of information which makes them use totally different tactics, but my opinion is that we are more gullible when the information comes from inside our sphere (regional, national, cultural, political), than outside, making outside information look like a cruder version than inside information, even when both are on the same level of manipulation, even when we are trying to be objective, but failing short due to the mental reflexes I mentionned.

Ask an European/Russian what they think when they read comparably false Russia/European paper. They may both have the same opinion than you. Who's right?



Quote from: Kuujis on August 21, 2014, 02:05:58 pm
Well... don't tell me you are too lazy to read :P

I read, but waited for confirmation before being happy 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 21, 2014, 03:16:41 pm
Butan,

Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html)

In Russia, intelligent people know how their media works. I assume they are able to extract some truth through the propaganda, and the same here in the west. Intelligent people know our media and how it works, and are able to find and extract useful info from it.

Now.. What I think is the basis for this whole conflict lies on an emotional level among the people in Ukraine and RF:

Russia has felt humiliated by the west, and Ukrainians by Russia. Both people, and especially their politicians and media, are using others as scapegoats for their problems. This saves them from looking inside themselves and realizing that their corrupt mafia-societies are not self-sustaining. (Well in RF it's not much media that are allowed to be critical anyway, that leaves blaming others the only option)

I mean.. here one TV channel resorted to special effects compositing like Iran does:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


 http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236 (http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 21, 2014, 08:51:06 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 21, 2014, 03:16:41 pm
Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html)

Funny that first time we use soviet era as a positive argument, its to sprout shit on current RF  :mrgreen: Still interesting article...

I would like to know if those journalists, who were working on "higher standards" back then, did reports on (for example) Tchernobyl and the soviet war in Afghanistan and other proxy russian wars, and to check if they never ever indulged in "bold faced lies".
I think they are going a bit easy on themselves, nostalgia and selective memory helping  :wink:


I agree on the rest of your post...
Still dont believe in a "monopoly" of badly thought lies (pro-Russian people burning themselves in a building... Separatists bombing themselves in conflict zones... and all seriously discussed right in this thread).
Its hard to quantify the stupidity of national medias (private and state controlled), and to compare between states. How can we resolve the question without falling into traps?


Even if russian medias were more prone to autistic level of propaganda, it only make them less dangerous than the more subtle journalists. Fear not the bad liars, but the good ones.
Since it is a harmless conundrum, I concede you the argument.


Quote from: Thomek on August 21, 2014, 03:16:41 pm
This saves them from looking inside themselves.

We humans often start introspections after everything is over.
As in most "great secret of history", we will have to wait a few years, or decades, to have a part of the truth, or most of it, delivered to us.
Until then, we have best keep our wits about ourselves!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 22, 2014, 02:29:45 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 21, 2014, 03:16:41 pm
Butan,

Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html)

In Russia, intelligent people know how their media works. I assume they are able to extract some truth through the propaganda, and the same here in the west. Intelligent people know our media and how it works, and are able to find and extract useful info from it.

Now.. What I think is the basis for this whole conflict lies on an emotional level among the people in Ukraine and RF:

Russia has felt humiliated by the west, and Ukrainians by Russia. Both people, and especially their politicians and media, are using others as scapegoats for their problems. This saves them from looking inside themselves and realizing that their corrupt mafia-societies are not self-sustaining. (Well in RF it's not much media that are allowed to be critical anyway, that leaves blaming others the only option)

I mean.. here one TV channel resorted to special effects compositing like Iran does:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


 http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236 (http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236)

The impression I get is that is not that Russia feels humiliated by the West, it feels betrayed. Russia, the Russian government, Putin have politically played their cards very well and Putin has seemed to have the political edge over Western politicians in geopolitical situations that affect both the West and Russia.

Look at Russia brokering the deal with the Syrian government dismantling its chemical weapons production, Russia's ability to retain its warm water port despite its puppet being violently overthrown in Ukraine. Russia's strengthening of the BRICS and its part in encouraging other major developing, emerging trading nations in moving away from the dollar. Putin has played his cards well and I doubt he nor his public support in Russia feel humiliated, just betrayed by the West.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 22, 2014, 06:02:45 am
Only Retardus_Prime would think Putin's played his cards well when we're close to another cold war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 22, 2014, 08:30:02 am
Quote from: Xant on August 22, 2014, 06:02:45 am
Only Retardus_Prime would think Putin's played his cards well when we're close to another cold war.

Putin is playing the North Korean squaredance. He got a little angry, grabbed some geopolitical bully points, secured the public opinion at home. At some point he will start de-escalating tensions, before he gets anyone really mad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 22, 2014, 08:47:39 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 22, 2014, 08:30:02 am
Putin is playing the North Korean squaredance. He got a little angry, grabbed some geopolitical bully points, secured the public opinion at home. At some point he will start de-escalating tensions, before he gets anyone really mad.
He's already fucked up a lot for Russia, even if he starts de-escalating right now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 08:52:38 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 22, 2014, 02:29:45 am
The impression I get is that is not that Russia feels humiliated by the West, it feels betrayed. Russia, the Russian government, Putin have politically played their cards very well and Putin has seemed to have the political edge over Western politicians in geopolitical situations that affect both the West and Russia.

Look at Russia brokering the deal with the Syrian government dismantling its chemical weapons production, Russia's ability to retain its warm water port despite its puppet being violently overthrown in Ukraine. Russia's strengthening of the BRICS and its part in encouraging other major developing, emerging trading nations in moving away from the dollar. Putin has played his cards well and I doubt he nor his public support in Russia feel humiliated, just betrayed by the West.
Humiliated how? And why by the West? You DO realize, that its something that YOUR government owned media created in your mind? One of your neighbors wants to "go west" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SezoGW_z9w0 and suddenly you feel humiliated? If you lived in a flat apartment, which was crumbling, and your neighbor decided to leave your "commune" - do you suddenly feel humiliated?

Putin played, I dare say - LOST big time, and now you feel fucked, humiliated. Well guess what - in any NORMAL country the top gambler would not have 87% support, yet "in putlers russia putler maintains your support for him". Wake the fuck up and stop blaming everyone else around you, your history or what ever else you want to blame. What did YOU do to stop this bloodshed?

Its a sign of megalomania and/or paranoia to position russia against the west. Simple as that. Its a relic of "irrelevant" russian history circa CCCP times and russian imperialism before that. And russia needs to get over it and deal with it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 11:18:22 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 21, 2014, 03:16:41 pm
Butan,

Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html)

In Russia, intelligent people know how their media works. I assume they are able to extract some truth through the propaganda, and the same here in the west. Intelligent people know our media and how it works, and are able to find and extract useful info from it.

Now.. What I think is the basis for this whole conflict lies on an emotional level among the people in Ukraine and RF:

Russia has felt humiliated by the west, and Ukrainians by Russia. Both people, and especially their politicians and media, are using others as scapegoats for their problems. This saves them from looking inside themselves and realizing that their corrupt mafia-societies are not self-sustaining. (Well in RF it's not much media that are allowed to be critical anyway, that leaves blaming others the only option)

I mean.. here one TV channel resorted to special effects compositing like Iran does:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


 http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236 (http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236)

and? )
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 11:51:11 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 22, 2014, 12:27:31 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 08:52:38 am
Humiliated how? And why by the West? You DO realize, that its something that YOUR government owned media created in your mind? One of your neighbors wants to "go west" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SezoGW_z9w0 and suddenly you feel humiliated? If you lived in a flat apartment, which was crumbling, and your neighbor decided to leave your "commune" - do you suddenly feel humiliated?

Putin played, I dare say - LOST big time, and now you feel fucked, humiliated. Well guess what - in any NORMAL country the top gambler would not have 87% support, yet "in putlers russia putler maintains your support for him". Wake the fuck up and stop blaming everyone else around you, your history or what ever else you want to blame. What did YOU do to stop this bloodshed?

Its a sign of megalomania and/or paranoia to position russia against the west. Simple as that. Its a relic of "irrelevant" russian history circa CCCP times and russian imperialism before that. And russia needs to get over it and deal with it.

Read what I wrote again, and by the way I'm British not Russian. Simpering idiots on this thread are pulling their own government and media line, look at kafein for example, bought right into the whole "Russia is now isolated" propaganda hook line and sinker.. But of course with the rise of the BRICS we know that the whole "Russia has isolated itself" propaganda is complete bullshit.

We even have European nations criticising the sanctions placed on Russia due to the harm Russia's retaliatory sanctions are having on their trade, so not only has Russia secured international ties from China, to South Africa, India and then South America, even EU states want to rapidly improve relations with Russia again just to save their own necks.

The E.U has failed to serve its purpose, and it is in decline and I don't think it will take much longer for the failed experiment to start to crumble and for nations within its sphere to start dropping out one by one for the sake of their own sovereignty, economy and people.

The EU, like the soviet union is failing and will fail. Too much power in the hands of too few incompetent people leads to major failings and ineptitude.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 22, 2014, 01:58:01 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 22, 2014, 06:02:45 am
Only Retardus_Prime would think Putin's played his cards well when we're close to another cold war.

How is being close to another cold war a defeat for Russia?
Even if there is no de-escalation, as Kafein said.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 22, 2014, 02:17:50 pm
If anyone wants a blatant example of Western mainstream media propaganda, we have the BBC reporting that some influential people in the West are now calling for the West to work with Assad to combat ISIS, during the report the BBC blatantly asserted that the Assad government had gassed its own people last year, although what I remember from multiple media sources on the internet was evidence supporting that in-fact the Syrian rebels were the ones who fired chemical weapons from botched up home-made artillery. So we go from a situation in 2013 where the Syrian government was accused of gassing its own people where little or no proof could be obtained to support such a claim while at the same time evidence mounting that it was in-fact the rebels who fired the weapons, to 2014 where the BBC reports the Assad government did it, end of story.

Fucking propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 22, 2014, 02:45:14 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 22, 2014, 01:58:01 pm
How is being close to another cold war a defeat for Russia?
Even if there is no de-escalation, as Kafein said.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 22, 2014, 03:08:57 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 22, 2014, 02:17:50 pm
If anyone wants a blatant example of Western mainstream media propaganda, we have the BBC reporting that some influential people in the West are now calling for the West to work with Assad to combat ISIS, during the report the BBC blatantly asserted that the Assad government had gassed its own people last year, although what I remember from multiple media sources on the internet was evidence supporting that in-fact the Syrian rebels were the ones who fired chemical weapons from botched up home-made artillery. So we go from a situation in 2013 where the Syrian government was accused of gassing its own people where little or no proof could be obtained to support such a claim while at the same time evidence mounting that it was in-fact the rebels who fired the weapons, to 2014 where the BBC reports the Assad government did it, end of story.

Fucking propaganda.

That was an obvious false flag operation, probably staged by rebels in order to get air support..  Make us believe Assad would use chemicals when Obama made a red line, with UN chemical inspectors in a hotel nearby.. Good timing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 03:10:18 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 22, 2014, 12:27:31 pm
Read what I wrote again, and by the way I'm British not Russian. Simpering idiots on this thread are pulling their own government and media line, look at kafein for example, bought right into the whole "Russia is now isolated" propaganda hook line and sinker.. But of course with the rise of the BRICS we know that the whole "Russia has isolated itself" propaganda is complete bullshit.

We even have European nations criticising the sanctions placed on Russia due to the harm Russia's retaliatory sanctions are having on their trade, so not only has Russia secured international ties from China, to South Africa, India and then South America, even EU states want to rapidly improve relations with Russia again just to save their own necks.

The E.U has failed to serve its purpose, and it is in decline and I don't think it will take much longer for the failed experiment to start to crumble and for nations within its sphere to start dropping out one by one for the sake of their own sovereignty, economy and people.

The EU, like the soviet union is failing and will fail. Too much power in the hands of too few incompetent people leads to major failings and ineptitude.

It's painful to read what you write, sorry.

But of course with the rise of the BRICS we know that the whole "Russia has isolated itself" propaganda is complete bullshit. You mean YOU know or more likely WANT TO BELIEVE that you know this. Or do you have multiple experts on the matter in your head?

I ask you again - russia is humiliated HOW? And since when this glorious feeling of "humiliated" is enough to annex parts of "friendly slav nations"? From where did you pull this shit out?

UK once was an empire, built one too many battleships, got almost bankrupt, and ceased to be an empire, lots of new countries appeared. Do you continue to explain to Australia, India, Hong Kong(to be fair - Hong Kong was UK until recently, so yeah.. :) ) or NZ how to manage their foreign policy? I assume your will say "no, but...." then I blatantly interrupt and continue.

Of course we have people criticizing sanctions. Its called dem-o-cra-cy and being able to voice ones oppinions. However - having a shitty oppinion does not mean anyone should respect it. AFAIK - Germany was No1 among those, Netherlands close nearby. Now they changed their tune. Ask the MH17 passengers why. And let me put it this way: when/if you do business with russia - you get a sweet deal (maybe) in return for QUITE some risks. Many are willing to take it and I'm fine with this. Just don't come running when putler makes next nonsense affecting you.

"The E.U has failed to serve its purpose.<... bla bla bla ...>" Oh? Thats something new... Those MILLIONS trying to come and live in the EU must be mistaken then... Good to know. YOU TELL THEM MATE! </facepalm> I guess you will vote to leave EU when you get a chance? Good luck! :) Also, for the record - this is NOT a thread about you having a grudge agains EU, create your own and enjoy it slipping into obscurity.

Ukraine at the moment has some white trucks set up by russia driving on their soil without permission. And that seems perfectly fine to you most likely. In putlers russia - putler does not give a fuck about what neighboring countries want, he just "do not have any more patience"...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 03:33:45 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS9XmRDIz-A

atleast someone make a real video "russia crossed ukrain border" -3h
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 22, 2014, 03:50:46 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 22, 2014, 02:45:14 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Is that image supposed to give you time to formulate an explanation? Because from where I'm standing you seem to be without arguments  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 22, 2014, 04:24:52 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 03:33:45 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS9XmRDIz-A

atleast someone make a real video "russia crossed ukrain border" -3h

They are doing this without permission of UA goverment and Red Cross, wright?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 04:35:49 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on August 22, 2014, 04:24:52 pm
They are doing this without permission of UA goverment and Red Cross, wright?
ask kuujis or thomek they know all about geopolitics and Russian-Ukrainian relations
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 22, 2014, 04:42:39 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on August 22, 2014, 04:24:52 pm
They are doing this without permission of UA goverment and Red Cross, wright?
As I know Red Cross checked all trucks and Ua government's permission needed only
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 04:49:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 22, 2014, 04:42:39 pm
As I know Red Cross checked all trucks and Ua government's permission needed only
As I "read" (I do not KNOW, since I'm not there :P ), only 39? or some such of 280 trucks were checked and part of those checked seem to have crossed into Ukraine without Ukraines permission.

As to whether this is right or wrong - if the permission by Ukraine was indeed not present - then this is yet another putlers show of "I do what I want" and "fuck the law, I'm the law, my small patience is the law, fuck your wish for sprats (I have my own stockpile)"... kinda like that, yes...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 22, 2014, 04:57:16 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 22, 2014, 04:42:39 pm
As I know Red Cross checked all trucks and Ua government's permission needed only

As I know The Red Cross has not received confirmation from the terrorists which guarantee the ceasefire, but despite this a convoy of more than 100 vehicles came to the territory of Ukraine without any customs clearance, border clearance and maintenance of the International Red Cross, which is a flagrant violation of international law
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 22, 2014, 05:24:20 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on August 22, 2014, 04:57:16 pm
As I know The Red Cross has not received confirmation from the terrorists which guarantee the ceasefire, but despite this a convoy of more than 100 vehicles came to the territory of Ukraine without any customs clearance, border clearance and maintenance of the International Red Cross, which is a flagrant violation of international law
Yes I agree that they broke international law in this case, but I think not humanitarian one
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 22, 2014, 06:07:18 pm
exclusive 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 22, 2014, 06:48:42 pm
Quote from: Yarl on August 22, 2014, 06:07:18 pm
exclusive 
(click to show/hide)

No plates, and they look fresh painted.
I smell a councealed invasion.
The 28th invasion to be exact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 22, 2014, 06:53:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 22, 2014, 03:50:46 pm
Is that image supposed to give you time to formulate an explanation? Because from where I'm standing you seem to be without arguments  :wink:
That's because you wouldn't recognize an argument if it smacked you in the face and raped you in a back alley, then stole your wallet and bought pink lady shoes with your credit card.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 22, 2014, 07:13:04 pm
Tbh, if I had anything to say in the Ukraine... I had ordered my military to stop those trucks immediately, by force if necessary.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 22, 2014, 07:39:15 pm
http://baltic-review.com/2014/08/lithuanian-honorary-consul-murdered-by-russian-backed-terrorists-in-luhansk/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 07:46:06 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2014, 07:13:04 pm
Tbh, if I had anything to say in the Ukraine... I had ordered my military to stop those trucks immediately, by force if necessary.
Yep... Preferably stop and detain. Unfortunately - with the current realities - the best they can do is shell the fuck out of the convoy, which is what putler is waiting or let them through, which is a secondary thing that the putler is waiting for... Both suck, but I do not see a lot of alternatives, barring the temporary delays via destruction of their intended roadways... which again is not preferable.

Quote from: DonNicko on August 22, 2014, 05:24:20 pm
Yes I agree that they broke international law in this case, but I think not humanitarian one
Sorry to disappoint, but humanitarian law IS part of international law. There is a reason, why Ukraine agreed to accept ICRC led convoy and did not agree to the current state of affairs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_law

It is appallingly insincere and simply hypocritical to allow militants to cross the border in order to continue the war, then turn on the cameras and proclaim "we are worried about humanitarian situation<....bla bla bla....> so we will send in our help of dubious usefulness" (I mean - if anyone has a good idea about WHAT those 20% loaded trucks are going to be used for - lemme know, because delivery of hum. aid is DEFINITELY not their main purpose)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 22, 2014, 07:46:43 pm
Putin's "invasion" trucks are actually loaded with dangerous stuff.

For example one of the most dangerous weapons:

(click to show/hide)
The driver showed his cargo in a control a week ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 22, 2014, 09:18:15 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 22, 2014, 07:46:43 pm
Putin's "invasion" trucks are actually loaded with dangerous stuff.

For example one of the most dangerous weapons:

(click to show/hide)
The driver showed his cargo in a control a week ago.

What do you think would have been included if the Ukrainians had let the convoy in uninspected?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 09:25:37 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on August 22, 2014, 09:18:15 pm
What do you think would have been included if the Ukrainians had let the convoy in uninspected?
OR - what would happen, if the trucks were AT LEAST half full... now they are carrying less than 20% of their capacity...

After russian "humanitarian" or "peacekeeping" or whatever "missions" to Georgia and Moldova - they have parts of their countries effectively occupied. Noone is waiting for "third time the charm".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 10:10:07 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on August 22, 2014, 07:39:15 pm
http://baltic-review.com/2014/08/lithuanian-honorary-consul-murdered-by-russian-backed-terrorists-in-luhansk/
(click to show/hide)
"Далее ситуация начала перетекать ближе к конкретизации, ибо, как отметил директор ЧАО «Набат» Николай Зеленец, «одной задницей на двух лодках не усидишь». По его словам, «нельзя не уважать людей с автоматами, контролирующих область», так что «необходимо определяться»."  " «Что мы делаем для того, чтобы урегулировать данную ситуацию. Мы должны сказать друг другу, что мы и где мы. Идет развал страны. Прежнее устройство государства Украина, как территориально, так и конституционно, невозможно. Слишком много сказано друг другу. – Сказал г-н Зеленец. - Сначала мы должны определиться между собой, куда мы едем и выработать единую карту, по которой мы будем идти. Если это единая Украина, то тогда только федеративный строй, если это Луганская народная республика, то что тогда делать? Потому что нельзя не уважать людей с автоматами, которые контролируют сейчас область. Мы должны принять либо одну, либо - другую сторону. Мы должны выбрать маршрут»."
In March, he refused to pay taxes, in the May urged to choose a side. And not the fact that he chose Poroshenko ^^

Quote from: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 09:25:37 pm
OR - what would happen, if the trucks were AT LEAST half full... now they are carrying less than 20% of their capacity...
After russian "humanitarian" or "peacekeeping" or whatever "missions" to Georgia and Moldova - they have parts of their countries effectively occupied. Noone is waiting for "third time the charm".
oh common, enough to repeat the same thing again and again, go and be engaged in useful things, such as start to dig 2m moat on the border with Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 10:20:38 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 10:10:07 pm
oh common, enough to repeat the same thing again and again, go and be engaged in useful things, such as start to dig 2m moat on the border with Russia
As long as there are naive people asking "whats wrong with allowing hum. aid trucks through - I feel obliged to remind history :P

Like SPRATS! And PORK FAT! Are they still getting cheaper?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 10:27:17 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 10:20:38 pm
As long as there are naive people asking "whats wrong with allowing hum. aid trucks through - I feel obliged to remind history :P

Like SPRATS! And PORK FAT! Are they still getting cheaper?

I do not eat sprats ((so I can not say for sure .... I visit mall once a week, maybe tomorrow I will answer about pork loin, for a can of sardines, even'll make for  you Google chart of the price on it for the last 2 years))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 22, 2014, 10:51:55 pm
NATO now says RF is on Ukr territory with artillery, shooting at Ukr army from inside Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 22, 2014, 10:58:55 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 22, 2014, 10:51:55 pm
NATO now says RF is on Ukr territory with artillery, shooting at Ukr army from inside Ukraine.
Tomorrow Ukraine said that the humanitarian convoy shot himself out of the "Grad" which was under every second tent
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 22, 2014, 11:03:26 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 22, 2014, 10:51:55 pm
NATO now says RF is on Ukr territory with artillery, shooting at Ukr army from inside Ukraine.

Well, for me it sounds like the same kind of lie which was spread in that conflict with the russian military convoy which was 1. still in Russia and 2. there was no proof or photo of this hole in the fence...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 22, 2014, 11:19:28 pm
For sure it was a lie. RF never sent any heavy gear into Ukraine, and never supported the separatists militarily. Also, Poland attacked Germany first during wwii.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 12:51:15 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 22, 2014, 03:10:18 pm
It's painful to read what you write, sorry.

But of course with the rise of the BRICS we know that the whole "Russia has isolated itself" propaganda is complete bullshit. You mean YOU know or more likely WANT TO BELIEVE that you know this. Or do you have multiple experts on the matter in your head?

I ask you again - russia is humiliated HOW? And since when this glorious feeling of "humiliated" is enough to annex parts of "friendly slav nations"? From where did you pull this shit out?

UK once was an empire, built one too many battleships, got almost bankrupt, and ceased to be an empire, lots of new countries appeared. Do you continue to explain to Australia, India, Hong Kong(to be fair - Hong Kong was UK until recently, so yeah.. :) ) or NZ how to manage their foreign policy? I assume your will say "no, but...." then I blatantly interrupt and continue.

Of course we have people criticizing sanctions. Its called dem-o-cra-cy and being able to voice ones oppinions. However - having a shitty oppinion does not mean anyone should respect it. AFAIK - Germany was No1 among those, Netherlands close nearby. Now they changed their tune. Ask the MH17 passengers why. And let me put it this way: when/if you do business with russia - you get a sweet deal (maybe) in return for QUITE some risks. Many are willing to take it and I'm fine with this. Just don't come running when putler makes next nonsense affecting you.

"The E.U has failed to serve its purpose.<... bla bla bla ...>" Oh? Thats something new... Those MILLIONS trying to come and live in the EU must be mistaken then... Good to know. YOU TELL THEM MATE! </facepalm> I guess you will vote to leave EU when you get a chance? Good luck! :) Also, for the record - this is NOT a thread about you having a grudge agains EU, create your own and enjoy it slipping into obscurity.

Ukraine at the moment has some white trucks set up by russia driving on their soil without permission. And that seems perfectly fine to you most likely. In putlers russia - putler does not give a fuck about what neighboring countries want, he just "do not have any more patience"...

I will repeat, read what I wrote. In-fact don't. I NEVER SAID RUSSIA WAS HUMILIATED I SAID IT FELT BETRAYED YOU DUMB FUCK.

With that out of the way..

If Putin places sanctions on the U.K which may affect myself and my family I would blame my government for its lack of competence in the diplomatic arena.

I reserve the right to criticize the EU, as after all it is half the reason why the shit we see in the Ukraine is happening today right? And it is after all the new Soviet Union, a super state that will destroy itself  politically and economically, tell me how does all those people flooding into Europe create jobs and wealth? It doesn't, they just add to the financial burden on the EU which will eventually see it completely collapse, they can come all they like they only quicken its decline and once it's gone they'll be running back home with their tails between their legs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 23, 2014, 01:14:47 am
EU is not the main reason. The main reason is that they see their society and politicians are still shit and poor and corrupt, while those who chose the west are experiencing massive growth and better living standards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 01:41:38 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 23, 2014, 01:14:47 am
EU is not the main reason. The main reason is that they see their society and politicians are still shit and poor and corrupt, while those who chose the west are experiencing massive growth and better living standards.

That is not true. We are not experiencing massive growth, economically speaking. If you mean growth geopolitically then yes, growth in the amount of jobless you're correct on that too, growth in the amount of national debt? Yep.

Where as the statement about better living standards may be true for many Europeans, but not all and certainly not everyone, and maybe more so for the Middle-Class than the majority of the working class.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 23, 2014, 01:50:34 am
Well of course not everyone. I was talking about former soviet block countries. Many in Ukraine look to Poland as an example, where it is indeed a massive difference in living standards overall compared to Ukraine and RF too. (And no, not just among the rich) Normal working people have a very decent life in Poland now. Far from what they can manage in Ukraine or most of RF.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 23, 2014, 02:27:28 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 01:41:38 am
That is not true. We are not experiencing massive growth, economically speaking. If you mean growth geopolitically then yes, growth in the amount of jobless you're correct on that too, growth in the amount of national debt? Yep.

Where as the statement about better living standards may be true for many Europeans, but not all and certainly not everyone, and maybe more so for the Middle-Class than the majority of the working class.

Huh, EU was doing well, but it feeds off of a Positive US a lot. A bad US, means a Bad EU, that and Hippie, commie, bullshit about Idealistic worlds and equality for everyone, no rich people doesn't work.  That's what's killing the US badly, and has killed EU for so long. Institutionalized poor, but while poor, they are still wealthy wealthy their comparable UKR person.

But, that's all economics and people bend it to much to match their political Ideology. Russia is only as strong mainly because of 1 thing: Resources. Sadly, that sort of economy collapses over time due to dwindling resources and deterioration of equipment over time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 23, 2014, 10:25:09 am
(click to show/hide)

Ukraine: Russian humanitarian aid unloaded in Lugansk
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 23, 2014, 10:55:33 am
Could everyone posting RT stuff just piss off into their naive cloud-castle dream world and let the grown ups talk... Jesus

Having "Fuck the media" in his signature but posting random RT videos... Good job on looking like a freaking idiot. -.-
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 23, 2014, 12:24:48 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 12:51:15 am
I will repeat, read what I wrote. In-fact don't. I NEVER SAID RUSSIA WAS HUMILIATED I SAID IT FELT BETRAYED YOU DUMB FUCK.
I'll take that as a compliment coming from you  :lol: And for all intents and purposes - you can replace "humiliated" with "humiliated and/or betrayed".


Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 12:51:15 am
With that out of the way..

If Putin places sanctions on the U.K which may affect myself and my family I would blame my government for its lack of competence in the diplomatic arena.
OMG, really? You are going to be affected? FOR REAL? That is what almost all leaders in Europe were thinking before WW2 while giving Germany free pass at its anschluss and other BS they were stirring up. You in that boat? I.e. there is NOTHING more important than your family's sorry excuse of a hide and wish for another loaf of bread and 5th tv in a WC? Really? You choose to have business with russia, with putler and his bunch of neo-nazteees - you get what you deserve. RISK MANAGEMENT TIP: change your fucking job, if you work for a company related to russia OR differentiate your clients if you OWN the business.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 12:51:15 am
I reserve the right to criticize the EU, as after all it is half the reason why the shit we see in the Ukraine is happening today right? And it is after all the new Soviet Union, a super state that will destroy itself  politically and economically, tell me how does all those people flooding into Europe create jobs and wealth? It doesn't, they just add to the financial burden on the EU which will eventually see it completely collapse, they can come all they like they only quicken its decline and once it's gone they'll be running back home with their tails between their legs.
You are using a cheap rhetoric. If you can't spot differences between CCCP and EU - you should REALLY read more. Better yet - come to Lt, there is this http://sovietbunker.com/en/, good entertainment guaranteed. OR - go to some other city in russia except Moscow and St.Petersburg. Some village preferably. See and feel the fucking difference, then come barking.

"tell me how does all those people flooding into Europe create jobs and wealth?" Your personal laziness to grow up kids means that young population in EU is declining, which means - you will ... bah, why do I bother.  Here is a nice sum-up from a random googled paper on this topic http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf:
Recent immigrants, i.e. those who arrived since 2000, are less likely to both receiving benefits and living in social housing than natives. Furthermore, recent immigrants, both those from EEA and non - EEA countries have made a positive net contribution to the UK fiscal system despite the UK’s running a budget deficit over most of the 2000s.
And again - you have to create a separate thread for your grudge against EU. Just because you don't like EU does not mean what russia is doing in Ukraine is justifiable or right or that it is something to ignore. You may be ignorant, but you fail to realize this path was already tried once and it failed miserably. Wat the fuck up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on August 23, 2014, 12:50:25 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 23, 2014, 12:24:48 pm
OR - go to some other city in russia except Moscow and St.Petersburg. Some village preferably.
western stereotype imo.
as a citizen of post USSR country i can guess that situation with ukrainian towns and cities is similar to russian.
I live in the large industrial town and I have to say that its not really bad. if compare it to the "oblast-center" - Dnepropetrovsk, it looks worse... but it looks worse cuz Dnepropetrovsk is beautiful city which TOTALY mostly was built by USSR.
and i guess this situation does exist for almost every big city in ukraine and for russia too.

I never was in any european country so i cannot really compare it but I still think that difference is not that huge as some people wants other people to think.

yes, situation with little towns not always good (I know 2 beautiful small towns and 2 pretty ugly ones) but its probably because of different factors such as town administration.

in modern world in majority of the countries urbanisation lvl is pretty high so yes, villages are usually poor but there are really so few people in any village(example has been taken from ukrainian village)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 01:15:49 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2014, 10:55:33 am
Could everyone posting RT stuff just piss off into their naive cloud-castle dream world and let the grown ups talk... Jesus

Having "Fuck the media" in his signature but posting random RT videos... Good job on looking like a freaking idiot. -.-

Saying that is almost as childish as Xants posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 01:22:25 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 23, 2014, 02:27:28 am
Huh, EU was doing well, but it feeds off of a Positive US a lot. A bad US, means a Bad EU, that and Hippie, commie, bullshit about Idealistic worlds and equality for everyone, no rich people doesn't work.  That's what's killing the US badly, and has killed EU for so long. Institutionalized poor, but while poor, they are still wealthy wealthy their comparable UKR person.

But, that's all economics and people bend it to much to match their political Ideology. Russia is only as strong mainly because of 1 thing: Resources. Sadly, that sort of economy collapses over time due to dwindling resources and deterioration of equipment over time.

I believe Russia's natural resources will bolster its economy for decades or more to come. I admit I'm not great with economics, I'm not fully aware or know a huge amount about what nations in the EU export, import but I'm guessing there are no states within the EU with as much fossil energy resource as Russia and therefore their economies are not bolstered by such a reliable resource which is in demand for almost everywhere in the world, such as gas and oil are. Many nations in the EU trade largely in manufactured goods which are in demand the world over, but they do not have a monopoly on manufactured goods, remember China has effectively started compete with western manufacturing and is taking a larger share of the market year on year. There may come a time in a decade or two where China could produce and sell anything the West has to offer but cheaper, how will the European economies such as Italy, Germany and others fare then? What could they do to mitigate their losses to face this challenge? What's their plan B?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 01:24:31 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 23, 2014, 12:24:48 pm
OMG, really? You are going to be affected? FOR REAL? That is what almost all leaders in Europe were thinking before WW2 while giving Germany free pass at its anschluss and other BS they were stirring up. You in that boat? I.e. there is NOTHING more important than your I'll take that as a compliment coming from you  :lol: And for all intents and purposes - you can replace "humiliated" with "humiliated and/or betrayed".

family's sorry excuse of a hide and wish for another loaf of bread and 5th tv in a WC? Really? You choose to have business with russia, with putler and his bunch of neo-nazteees - you get what you deserve. RISK MANAGEMENT TIP: change your fucking job, if you work for a company related to russia OR differentiate your clients if you OWN the business.
You are using a cheap rhetoric. If you can't spot differences between CCCP and EU - you should REALLY read more. Better yet - come to Lt, there is this http://sovietbunker.com/en/, good entertainment guaranteed. OR - go to some other city in russia except Moscow and St.Petersburg. Some village preferably. See and feel the fucking difference, then come barking.

"tell me how does all those people flooding into Europe create jobs and wealth?" Your personal laziness to grow up kids means that young population in EU is declining, which means - you will ... bah, why do I bother.  Here is a nice sum-up from a random googled paper on this topic http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf:
Recent immigrants, i.e. those who arrived since 2000, are less likely to both receiving benefits and living in social housing than natives. Furthermore, recent immigrants, both those from EEA and non - EEA countries have made a positive net contribution to the UK fiscal system despite the UK’s running a budget deficit over most of the 2000s.
And again - you have to create a separate thread for your grudge against EU. Just because you don't like EU does not mean what russia is doing in Ukraine is justifiable or right or that it is something to ignore. You may be ignorant, but you fail to realize this path was already tried once and it failed miserably. Wat the fuck up.

Well clearly the German people weren't thinking this were they? Otherwise they wouldn't have let their government run rampant and declare war on the whole of Europe. Also, fuck your attack on my family.

Oh and I'm not going to correct your mistake by replacing humiliated with betrayed, you had a chance to read what I wrote properly, you correct your own mistakes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on August 23, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


thanks mr skeltal
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 23, 2014, 01:40:14 pm
Itt: Retardus_Prime still doesn't know how the modify button works.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 23, 2014, 01:58:49 pm
Neither has he any knowledge on how WW2 really came to be, shown by his completely stupid analogy...

Shamfur dispray.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 23, 2014, 02:11:18 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 22, 2014, 10:51:55 pm
NATO now says RF is on Ukr territory with artillery, shooting at Ukr army from inside Ukraine.

As the others said, now its very hard to know if thats the next step to disinformation, or a real concern about foreign forces taking position in Ukraine.
Also, since the rebels are more than likely supported by the RF through trickling reinforcements, its hard to know when to ring the alarm.


Still, taking into accounts all of which we know and pre-suppose, why would Russia choose to abandon the shadows and open the hostilities? Except if NATO intervenes or something really big happens, I dont see them giving up on their actual very comfortable military position. Until then the most sensible pursuit is to continue on the path they have set, helping the rebels as long as there is no bilateral negotiations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 23, 2014, 02:18:03 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 01:24:31 pm
Well clearly the German people weren't thinking this were they? Otherwise they wouldn't have let their government run rampant and declare war on the whole of Europe. Also, fuck your attack on my family.

Oh and I'm not going to correct your mistake by replacing humiliated with betrayed, you had a chance to read what I wrote properly, you correct your own mistakes.
Omai, odear... fuck me... for saying something which puts you and/or your family OUT of the center of the world for a minute. Yeah... blatant attack on your family. A blatantly fucked attack, aye mate?

German and most of the remainder of the europe before WW2 thought EXACTLY the same shit that you think about your family. "let them have these suddeten, then maybe Poland, Austria is also not Switzerland, where all the cash is... " Cassus belli if naztees? "GERMAN PEOPLE LIVE THERE!" or "GERMANY NEEDS A LIVING SPACE" (or some other BS along those lines).

Compare this to putlers "WE WILL PROTECT RUSSIANS WITH OUR MILITARY WHEREVER THEY ARE AND DISREGARDING THE FACT THAT THERE IS PRECIOUS LITTLE TO PROTECT FROM!" + "RUSSIA HAS LEGITIMATE INTEREST IN ITS NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES AND CAN DECIDE FOR THEM WHETHER THEY WANT TO WESTERNIZE OR NOT".

You are a conformist who is scared shitless for his and/or his family's hide. Zero fucking respect. Trying to play nice because "economy" failed, because its not only about economy and your 5th tv in WC.

On topic: https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/503069832188035072
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/separatist-forces-ukraine-threaten-mass-executions-2014-08-22
and an intersting read http://nationalinterest.org/feature/putins-public-opinion-challenge-11113?page=show
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 23, 2014, 02:49:55 pm
(click to show/hide)
Your point being?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 06:47:49 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 23, 2014, 02:18:03 pm
Omai, odear... fuck me... for saying something which puts you and/or your family OUT of the center of the world for a minute. Yeah... blatant attack on your family. A blatantly fucked attack, aye mate?

German and most of the remainder of the europe before WW2 thought EXACTLY the same shit that you think about your family. "let them have these suddeten, then maybe Poland, Austria is also not Switzerland, where all the cash is... " Cassus belli if naztees? "GERMAN PEOPLE LIVE THERE!" or "GERMANY NEEDS A LIVING SPACE" (or some other BS along those lines).

Compare this to putlers "WE WILL PROTECT RUSSIANS WITH OUR MILITARY WHEREVER THEY ARE AND DISREGARDING THE FACT THAT THERE IS PRECIOUS LITTLE TO PROTECT FROM!" + "RUSSIA HAS LEGITIMATE INTEREST IN ITS NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES AND CAN DECIDE FOR THEM WHETHER THEY WANT TO WESTERNIZE OR NOT".

You are a conformist who is scared shitless for his and/or his family's hide. Zero fucking respect. Trying to play nice because "economy" failed, because its not only about economy and your 5th tv in WC.

On topic: https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/503069832188035072
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/separatist-forces-ukraine-threaten-mass-executions-2014-08-22
and an intersting read http://nationalinterest.org/feature/putins-public-opinion-challenge-11113?page=show

Conformist? Conform to what? My governments position on the crisis? The Ukrainian governments position on the crisis? Am I conforming to the neo n azi ideology in Ukraine or the "Russia Federation is the USSR" talk? What exactly is it that I am conforming to? You dribbling worm.

When I largely oppose my governments military decisions, geopolitical interference and the media that supports it how does that make me a conformist? I think you're conforming to your own media, to your own governments lies, you are the conformist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 06:59:54 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2014, 01:58:49 pm
Neither has he any knowledge on how WW2 really came to be, shown by his completely stupid analogy...

Shamfur dispray.

I know of some aspects of the WW2, some more in depth than others.. WW2 came to be in your mind how exactly? By the way Germany was strangled by the victorious entante cordial which it has been argued led to conditions in Germany ripe for the rise of rampant, violent nationalism? Or the American banks, and American associated multi-national firms funding N azi Germany, allowing Germany to regain its strength and once again threaten its neighbours? Or after all this shit the end result, Germany's expansionism which subsequently led to WW2?

Harsh economic times are once again harming nations and changing political ideals, and once again these conditions have again allowed new national socialist groups to thrive and increase in popularity, you only have to look at Greece and, oh Ukraine to realise this... If history is repeating itself, it's not doing it in Russia, it's doing it in Europe, again.

Oh and no offense Molly, you really do come across as a smarmy cunt on this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 23, 2014, 07:11:05 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 06:59:54 pm
..and once again these conditions have again allowed new national socialist groups to thrive and increase in popularity, you only have to look at Greece and, oh Ukraine to realise this... If history is repeating itself, it's not doing it in Russia, it's doing it in Europe, again.

Oh and no offense Molly, you really do come across as a smarmy cunt on this thread.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 23, 2014, 07:55:32 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 06:59:54 pm
I know of some aspects of the WW2, some more in depth than others.. WW2 came to be in your mind how exactly? By the way Germany was strangled by the victorious entante cordial which it has been argued led to conditions in Germany ripe for the rise of rampant, violent nationalism? Or the American banks, and American associated multi-national firms funding N azi Germany, allowing Germany to regain its strength and once again threaten its neighbours? Or after all this shit the end result, Germany's expansionism which subsequently led to WW2?

Harsh economic times are once again harming nations and changing political ideals, and once again these conditions have again allowed new national socialist groups to thrive and increase in popularity, you only have to look at Greece and, oh Ukraine to realise this... If history is repeating itself, it's not doing it in Russia, it's doing it in Europe, again.

Oh and no offense Molly, you really do come across as a smarmy cunt on this thread.
Yea, voting percentages around 5% are alarming!
Do us all a favour and go and fight the system - preferable away from access to this forum... just asking nicely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 07:58:37 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2014, 07:55:32 pm
Yea, voting percentages around 5% are alarming!
Do us all a favour and go and fight the system - preferable away from access to this forum... just asking nicely.

Nope. Your attempts to stifle and block those who don't agree with you or your views by demanding that they do not reference material from sources you don't like or by requesting that they stop posting here will only lead to side tracking the topic and is tantamount to trolling.

Suck lemons.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 23, 2014, 09:36:21 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 06:47:49 pm
Conformist? Conform to what? My governments position on the crisis? The Ukrainian governments position on the crisis? Am I conforming to the neo n azi ideology in Ukraine or the "Russia Federation is the USSR" talk? What exactly is it that I am conforming to? You dribbling worm.

When I largely oppose my governments military decisions, geopolitical interference and the media that supports it how does that make me a conformist? I think you're conforming to your own media, to your own governments lies, you are the conformist.
Way to go, pick a red herring, ignore everything else  :rolleyes:

I probably picked a wrong word though... damn that non-native speaking! :rolleyes:

What I wanted to say is, that you are eager to sacrifice every principle your country is build upon so save your hide. I guess selfish is another good epithet. Or maybe just plain dumb and ignorant mixed with a dash of inexperience about things you talk about... I don't know. You have a better word maybe?

In any case - you ARE entitled to your opinion, ideas, counter arguments, but if they are stupid - don't act like a spoiled brat and start swearing at people. Free speech is not a protection of "speshul" speech from ridicule.

Also - do you have any particular arguments (except your hide depending on russian relations to EU), why you are eager to buy into the whole putlers agenda "Ukraine is ruled by puppet neo-naztee regime"? There are numerous facts showing otherwise and historical examples, which put the neo-naztee regime in russia instead of Ukraine. Sure you don't like EU, UK government... is this a reason to trust news sources, who were talking about crucified kids and plane full of corpses with straight faces? I can't connect the dots here, please help me.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 07:58:37 pm
Nope. Your attempts to stifle and block those who don't agree with you or your views by demanding that they do not reference material from sources you don't like or by requesting that they stop posting here will only lead to side tracking the topic and is tantamount to trolling.

Suck lemons.
You consider RT and other russian channels as a source of news? You FOR REAL do that? After they have been shown to be lying and using actors time and time again? And you offer OTHERS to suck lemons?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 23, 2014, 11:50:51 pm
Its true that the worst of the economical crisis is in Europe, and the worst of the political far-right is concentrated here too  :|   Russia pressure plays a large part in Ukraine nationalistic tendency though, and I dont see it becoming a new nazi regime except if a lot of conditions are met which we have no reasons to believe they will right now.
A bit like predicting Russia to change to a warmongering machine... I just dont see it becoming true unless we press all their buttons.


WW2 comparisons and godwin points are just metaphorical tool to express our fear that history will repeat itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 24, 2014, 12:07:53 am
Nationalism/NZ in Ukraine stems from Russian domination. Russia produces more of it the way they behave, and that's exactly what they want. A good enemy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 24, 2014, 01:22:48 am
It didnt just sprout from nothingness, but I see your point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 04:23:15 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 23, 2014, 09:36:21 pm
Way to go, pick a red herring, ignore everything else  :rolleyes:

I probably picked a wrong word though... damn that non-native speaking! :rolleyes:

What I wanted to say is, that you are eager to sacrifice every principle your country is build upon so save your hide. I guess selfish is another good epithet. Or maybe just plain dumb and ignorant mixed with a dash of inexperience about things you talk about... I don't know. You have a better word maybe?

In any case - you ARE entitled to your opinion, ideas, counter arguments, but if they are stupid - don't act like a spoiled brat and start swearing at people. Free speech is not a protection of "speshul" speech from ridicule.

Also - do you have any particular arguments (except your hide depending on russian relations to EU), why you are eager to buy into the whole putlers agenda "Ukraine is ruled by puppet neo-naztee regime"? There are numerous facts showing otherwise and historical examples, which put the neo-naztee regime in russia instead of Ukraine. Sure you don't like EU, UK government... is this a reason to trust news sources, who were talking about crucified kids and plane full of corpses with straight faces? I can't connect the dots here, please help me.
You consider RT and other russian channels as a source of news? You FOR REAL do that? After they have been shown to be lying and using actors time and time again? And you offer OTHERS to suck lemons?

What principles were modern Britain founded upon? The right to self determination, freedom and to not be ruled by a nation in Europe, or Europe itself (as was attempted by n azi occupied and controlled Europe during WW2), only for those same principles to be completely undermined by the EUSSR, by the British politicians involved in promoting and supporting E.U hegemony over every member states sovereignty, not by Russia.

Also, as I mentioned previously there are numerous factors which point toward the coup that overthrew Yanukovych was largely supported and partially orchestrated by NATO states, primarily the U.S. The 5billion dollars invested in Ukraine by the U.S to promote "democracy" (at the end of a petrol bomb, bullet by a neo n azi maybe?). Nulands telephone conversation. The attitude toward Ukraine pre-and post coup by NATO member states, for example only after the coup government was installed the IMF and involved EU members offered Ukraine a substantial loan to save Ukraine's failing economy. NATO's stance toward the Ukrainian civil war, its willingness to openly threaten Russia should Russia intervene militarily, although Ukraine is not a member state of NATO, even though the coup government has been in power for a very short time and has even been blatantly lying to the media about the situation in East Ukraine. Don't forget the situation in East Ukraine being completely ignored by the Western powers, a situation in which the Ukrainian coup government is firing artillery at its own populace, the VERY narrative used to excuse a "humanitarian intervention" in Libya, which overthrew Gaddafi, killed civilians, provided wealth and weaponry to jihadi's who are now cutting the heads off of American journalists in Iraq.

There's a saying, judge a man by his actions not by his words, when it comes to government you judge both and based on what I see, I see a blatant hypocrisy when it comes to the "national" interests of our NATO nations and the Western led U.N,  intervening all over the world is acceptable, but then we all witness NATO's hypocritical lambasting of Russia's attempts to protect its own national interests right on its own fucking borders, these actions and inactions, words and then silence on different aspects of the conflict contribute to the bigger picture, its not all about the media, its about everything.

There is much information, facts on the ground which can be determined by getting your information from multiple sources and then making your own mind up. Propaganda is usually very easy to spot, and I don't deny its use by either the West or Russia, and any other interested party. However unfortunately there are many in the West, Europe and especially East Europe, propagandised by their own governments to write off anything any media source other than its own and allied media outlets decide to disseminate. This unfortunately encourages the removal rational objectivity and replaces it with emotional opinion based thinking and perception. The heart so often fools the mind, how many times will our governments rally around false flags and disasters of their own spawning to get us to support their goals in their own shady agendas. Essentially people are shooting the messenger before the letter has even been opened, and everyone who does so, at least when considering from an opposing perspective/view/probablity is non the wiser.

I didn't offer Molly to suck lemons, I told Molly to suck lemons, because he might as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 12:20:02 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 04:23:15 am
What principles were modern Britain founded upon? The right to self determination, freedom and to not be ruled by a nation in Europe, or Europe itself (as was attempted by n azi occupied and controlled Europe during WW2), only for those same principles to be completely undermined by the EUSSR, by the British politicians involved in promoting and supporting E.U hegemony over every member states sovereignty, not by Russia.
Very good, thank you.
1. Right to self determination as it applies to a nation is not available to Ukraine according to putler, because it is on russias door step. And if Ukraine WANTS to decide something - their government suddenly become naztees. One principle down.
2. Freedom to not be ruled by some other nation or entity. See item 1. I have NO bloody idea why you would tollerate russias direct interventions in Ukraine, given that this is your countries founding principle, but... Another principle down.
3. I would argue, that you largely take for granted "rule of law", which is being trampled by russia left and right IN Ukraine.

So you argue, that your ability to have business with a country, which DOES NOT respect your nations founding principles (and thats why UK is agreeing to the sanctions), should be protected no matter what. I can only be happy, that you are in the minority...

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 04:23:15 am
Also, as I mentioned previously there are numerous factors which point toward the coup that overthrew Yanukovych was largely supported and partially orchestrated by NATO states, primarily the U.S. The 5billion dollars invested in Ukraine by the U.S to promote "democracy" (at the end of a petrol bomb, bullet by a neo n azi maybe?). Nulands telephone conversation. The attitude toward Ukraine pre-and post coup by NATO member states, for example only after the coup government was installed the IMF and involved EU members offered Ukraine a substantial loan to save Ukraine's failing economy. NATO's stance toward the Ukrainian civil war, its willingness to openly threaten Russia should Russia intervene militarily, although Ukraine is not a member state of NATO, even though the coup government has been in power for a very short time and has even been blatantly lying to the media about the situation in East Ukraine. Don't forget the situation in East Ukraine being completely ignored by the Western powers, a situation in which the Ukrainian coup government is firing artillery at its own populace, the VERY narrative used to excuse a "humanitarian intervention" in Libya, which overthrew Gaddafi, killed civilians, provided wealth and weaponry to jihadi's who are now cutting the heads off of American journalists in Iraq.
What factors? Where? Please share some sources about those 5 billion dollars please. I'm damn interested. And you will pardon my skepticism, if you rely on putler controlled sources.
And what attitude would you expect towards Ukraine, given that old-corrupt-president with criminal history was replaced by much more west-friendly leadership?
And as for Nuland call - so... both US and russia is meddling in Ukraine. I'd say it balances out, in the end - pupulace decides who wins. However - if you compare reactions to the "loss of influence": west simply carry on (thats what happened when pro-russian Yanukovich was elected), russia instead annexes part of the country, starts idiotic propaganda war and incites civil war. Thats adequate?
And again - your ass does not feel it, but there are MORE than enough educated people, who KNOW, that the same "WE MUST PROTECT RUSSIANS" scenario is applicable to at the very least 3 baltic states, all members of nato. IGNORING a conflict on such a basis is what was tried with naztee Germany before WW2, IT DID NOT WORK. You may be ignorant, but don't ask everyone else to be so.
As for intervening militarily - I read NUMEROUS times, that NATO ruled this option as not possible. Can you please cite your sources? Otherwise I'm calling you a liar.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/11/us-ukraine-crisis-rasmussen-idUSKBN0GB16R20140811 :
Asked if NATO, a U.S.-dominated, 28-nation alliance, could get involved militarily in Ukraine if Russian forces did invade, Rasmussen said it was a hypothetical question.

"However, we are not considering military operations. If the Russians were to intervene further in Ukraine, I have no doubt that the international community would respond determinedly, notably through broader, deeper, tougher economic sanctions that would isolate Russia further," he said.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 04:23:15 am
There's a saying, judge a man by his actions not by his words, when it comes to government you judge both and based on what I see, I see a blatant hypocrisy when it comes to the "national" interests of our NATO nations and the Western led U.N,  intervening all over the world is acceptable, but then we all witness NATO's hypocritical lambasting of Russia's attempts to protect its own national interests right on its own fucking borders, these actions and inactions, words and then silence on different aspects of the conflict contribute to the bigger picture, its not all about the media, its about everything.
Please identify the last time NATO went to war to protect some national interests, similarly to russias actions in Ukraine (e.g. incitement of civil war, annexation of land). I can't find it. I am not speaking about US, they DEFINITELY do shit, but again - that is relevant to Ukraine HOW?
Russia's attempts to protect its own national interests right on its own fucking borders This deserves a special mention: you consider Crimea being part of russia? Or do you consider russia explaining to  Ukraine what it should do "russia own borders"? Can you also point me to the source of the shit your are smoking? I would get some for me too.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 04:23:15 am
There is much information, facts on the ground which can be determined by getting your information from multiple sources and then making your own mind up. Propaganda is usually very easy to spot, and I don't deny its use by either the West or Russia, and any other interested party. However unfortunately there are many in the West, Europe and especially East Europe, propagandised by their own governments to write off anything any media source other than its own and allied media outlets decide to disseminate. This unfortunately encourages the removal rational objectivity and replaces it with emotional opinion based thinking and perception. The heart so often fools the mind, how many times will our governments rally around false flags and disasters of their own spawning to get us to support their goals in their own shady agendas. Essentially people are shooting the messenger before the letter has even been opened, and everyone who does so, at least when considering from an opposing perspective/view/probablity is non the wiser.

I didn't offer Molly to suck lemons, I told Molly to suck lemons, because he might as well.
You are quite naive, if you think you have the sole right to determine, who is right and who is wrong, placing labels like that.
Eastern europeans incidentally have A LOT more experience in dealings with russia, so ask yourself: is this "brainwash" or personal experience? A source of facts... what is amazing to me is how you still believe you are getting "facts" from the russian sources... They were proven to fabricate them time and time again...
http://www.stopfake.org/en/russia-s-top-100-lies-about-ukraine/

The guy who currently rules russia was part of repressive structures of CCCP, is blatantly speaking about "creating slav world" and "saving russians abroad". During his reign a man was poisoned with polonium in UK, with MORE than enough fingers pointing at russia and its refusal to cooperate speaks VOLUMES in itself. THIS is the country you advocate as being a source of info needed to be objective and with which you are willing to do business with.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 24, 2014, 01:10:53 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 12:20:02 pm
What factors? Where? Please share some sources about those 5 billion dollars please. I'm damn interested.
Victoria Nuland on Maidan. Why?
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
USA invested 5 billion dollars to Ukraine democracy
(click to show/hide)
John Maccein on Maidan.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 01:11:16 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 12:20:02 pm
Very good, thank you.
1. Right to self determination as it applies to a nation is not available to Ukraine according to putler, because it is on russias door step. And if Ukraine WANTS to decide something - their government suddenly become naztees. One principle down.
2. Freedom to not be ruled by some other nation or entity. See item 1. I have NO bloody idea why you would tollerate russias direct interventions in Ukraine, given that this is your countries founding principle, but... Another principle down.
3. I would argue, that you largely take for granted "rule of law", which is being trampled by russia left and right IN Ukraine.

So you argue, that your ability to have business with a country, which DOES NOT respect your nations founding principles (and thats why UK is agreeing to the sanctions), should be protected no matter what. I can only be happy, that you are in the minority...
What factors? Where? Please share some sources about those 5 billion dollars please. I'm damn interested. And you will pardon my skepticism, if you rely on putler controlled sources.
And what attitude would you expect towards Ukraine, given that old-corrupt-president with criminal history was replaced by much more west-friendly leadership?
And as for Nuland call - so... both US and russia is meddling in Ukraine. I'd say it balances out, in the end - pupulace decides who wins. However - if you compare reactions to the "loss of influence": west simply carry on (thats what happened when pro-russian Yanukovich was elected), russia instead annexes part of the country, starts idiotic propaganda war and incites civil war. Thats adequate?
And again - your ass does not feel it, but there are MORE than enough educated people, who KNOW, that the same "WE MUST PROTECT RUSSIANS" scenario is applicable to at the very least 3 baltic states, all members of nato. IGNORING a conflict on such a basis is what was tried with naztee Germany before WW2, IT DID NOT WORK. You may be ignorant, but don't ask everyone else to be so.
As for intervening militarily - I read NUMEROUS times, that NATO ruled this option as not possible. Can you please cite your sources? Otherwise I'm calling you a liar.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/11/us-ukraine-crisis-rasmussen-idUSKBN0GB16R20140811 :
Asked if NATO, a U.S.-dominated, 28-nation alliance, could get involved militarily in Ukraine if Russian forces did invade, Rasmussen said it was a hypothetical question.

"However, we are not considering military operations. If the Russians were to intervene further in Ukraine, I have no doubt that the international community would respond determinedly, notably through broader, deeper, tougher economic sanctions that would isolate Russia further," he said.
Please identify the last time NATO went to war to protect some national interests, similarly to russias actions in Ukraine (e.g. incitement of civil war, annexation of land). I can't find it. I am not speaking about US, they DEFINITELY do shit, but again - that is relevant to Ukraine HOW?
You are quite naive, if you think you have the sole right to determine, who is right and who is wrong, placing labels like that.
Eastern europeans incidentally have A LOT more experience in dealings with russia, so ask yourself: is this "brainwash" or personal experience? A source of facts... what is amazing to me is how you still believe you are getting "facts" from the russian sources... They were proven to fabricate them time and time again...
http://www.stopfake.org/en/russia-s-top-100-lies-about-ukraine/

The guy who currently rules russia was part of repressive structures of CCCP, is blatantly speaking about "creating slav world" and "saving russians abroad". During his reign a man was poisoned with polonium in UK, with MORE than enough fingers pointing at russia and its refusal to cooperate speaks VOLUMES in itself. THIS is the country you advocate as being a source of info needed to be objective and with which you are willing to do business with.

My nations principles were breached by our own successive governments decades ago, I am not and have not ever said that my nations principles should be applied to Ukraine, what kind of argument is that? After all the government is the mouthpiece for national principles and our government will bend and twist those principles to suit its agenda.

Where is the right for East Ukrainians to determine their own future hmm? I'm betting many East Ukrainians for whatever reason voted for Yanukovych, did not take part in the maidan coup and based on the Russiaphobic propaganda being disseminated by the Ukrainian coup government, (unelected by peoples in the East) the East Ukrainians have sought, with Russian backing their own autonomy, they want the right to self determination, the very right the Ukrainian government and NATO alliance is blocking.

It seems a nations right to determine its future is only acceptable when NATO or western led U.N says so, this means the world is being shaped unilaterally by the same groups united with the same interests in the goings on in the world. The unilateral, unipolar ideology attempting to shape the world and determine its future is being undertaken by merely 1/3 of the worlds population. The leaders and wealthy minorities within 1/3 of the worlds population deciding on how the maps are drawn and who rules what country and shapes the laws and determines the actions on what a nation may or may not do, basically determine how the rest of the world should live. Such an agenda will surely at some point clash with opposing and target ideologies that exist in the rest of the world in one way or another, that's what we're seeing in Ukraine and such an agenda is directly linked to the chaos and bloodshed we see in the Middle-East today.

Your views, as inane as some may be are all in support of a unipolar world, an undemocratic world, a world where too few have too much power, and to allow, and support this you are playing with fire, to put so much power into the hands of an incompetent few.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 01:11:16 pm
Where is the right for East Ukrainians to determine their own future hmm? I'm betting many East Ukrainians for whatever reason voted for Yanukovych, did not take part in the maidan coup and based on the Russiaphobic propaganda being disseminated by the Ukrainian coup government, (unelected by peoples in the East) the East Ukrainians have sought, with Russian backing their own autonomy, they want the right to self determination, the very right the Ukrainian government and NATO alliance is blocking.

Right to determine their own future? By that you mean right to determine russian law in Ukrainain soil. You are kinda like Butan here, who assumes if in some countries province a minority overpopulates the native population they should have the right to break appart from that country. By that logic in a few years Germany should have to give some of its lands where there are more turks than germans to Turkey, cause the turkish people have "a right to determine their own future". Way to support annexation via overpopulating.

If they really feel like they would have a better life under Russias wing than move to Russia, dont fucking try to turn it into Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sniger on August 24, 2014, 01:33:19 pm
SEMI-OFF-TOPIC

didnt knew where to post this, but its kinda funny and also impressive :)

not to twist topic in other direction please keep on-topic and just read and smile at this

http://disinfo.com/2014/08/russia-wants-bulgarians-stop-vandalizing-soviet-monuments-look-like-american-superheroes/

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 24, 2014, 01:44:15 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 24, 2014, 01:10:53 pm
Victoria Nuland on Maidan. Why?
(click to show/hide)
USA invested 5 billion dollars to Ukraine democracy
(click to show/hide)
John Maccein on Maidan.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

USA invested 5 billions since 1991 as she said, not exactly in Maidan, also that speech was made when Yanukovich was president. Nuland, Maccein on maidan? They show their support, and a lot wanted to see it. If some old ppl have some dreams about USSR etc, then majority of young ppl who were born in ndependent UA want to see Ukraine as integrated into EU world and this became as the main reason why Maidan started.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 24, 2014, 01:45:33 pm
Quote from: Sniger on August 24, 2014, 01:33:19 pm
SEMI-OFF-TOPIC

didnt knew where to post this, but its kinda funny and also impressive :)

not to twist topic in other direction please keep on-topic and just read and smile at this

http://disinfo.com/2014/08/russia-wants-bulgarians-stop-vandalizing-soviet-monuments-look-like-american-superheroes/

If this doesn't stop soon, Russia may have to invade to protect Bulgaria's ethnically Russian monument population
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 24, 2014, 02:00:39 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on August 24, 2014, 01:44:15 pm
USA invested 5 billions since 1991 as she said, not exactly in Maidan, also that speech was made when Yanukovich was president. Nuland, Maccein on maidan? They show their support, and a lot wanted to see it. If some old ppl have some dreams about USSR etc, then majority of young ppl who were born in ndependent UA want to see Ukraine as integrated into EU world and this became as the main reason why Maidan started.
I didn't said that they invested in Maidan, I said they invested in Ukraine democracy. Yeah ofcourse support :mrgreen: Hunter Biden is appointed to a post of the director in Burisma Holdings Limited board of directors
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 24, 2014, 02:21:32 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
Right to determine their own future? By that you mean right to determine russian law in Ukrainain soil. You are kinda like Butan here, who assumes if in some countries province a minority overpopulates the native population they should have the right to break appart from that country. By that logic in a few years Germany should have to give some of its lands where there are more turks than germans to Turkey, cause the turkish people have "a right to determine their own future". Way to support annexation via overpopulating.


By that logic, every civilian-based strife have no legitimacy to influence a country's shape and future. And I appreciate your far-right counter-argument  :wink:

I must have said that around 10 times now, but the unrest in the east of Ukraine started without Russia. Their involvement and support came afterward.

Without them the rebellion would have probably been crushed; with them it still exist. But the cause of the fight would have been the same in the two cases.
You can criticise Russia, but you can hardly criticise the rebelling Ukrainians.
The reason of the actual unrests stems from the Maidan revolt, a revolt which (as just as it was in its conclusion) broke the fragile political balance between Ukrainian and Russian-Ukrainian, and created the basis for a counter-revolt.

Why would a certain part of the citizens of Ukraine that wanted closer ties with Europe be granted their wish, and another part of the citizenry be denied *closer ties with Russia*, using the same methods?
Only the force of arms decides once you unleash the armed police and the army.


Quote from: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
If they really feel like they would have a better life under Russias wing than move to Russia, dont fucking try to turn it into Russia.

Who are you to say this? If the people inside Ukraine wants to turn it into another Russia, or only parts of it, its up to them to fight for it.

Also, not every people want to fight the Ukraine, there already has been hundreds thousands of more peaceful minded people who flew from Ukraine to Russia without you telling them what to do.
Those that remains either fight, wants to continue their life where it is, or are waiting to flee the war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 02:52:31 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 24, 2014, 02:21:32 pm
Who are you to say this? If the people inside Ukraine wants to turn it into another Russia, or only parts of it, its up to them to fight for it.
Well than, in that case somekind of minority have it up to them to fight for it inside your country one day. Bombs flying at your front porch and shit for some minorities own fight. Nice to see that you are cool with it and completely understanding.

Quote from: Butan on August 24, 2014, 02:21:32 pm
By that logic, every civilian-based strife have no legitimacy to influence a country's shape and future. And I appreciate your far-right counter-argument  :wink:

I must have said that around 10 times now, but the unrest in the east of Ukraine started without Russia. Their involvement and support came afterward.

Without them the rebellion would have probably been crushed; with them it still exist. But the cause of the fight would have been the same in the two cases.
You can criticise Russia, but you can hardly criticise the rebelling Ukrainians.
The reason of the actual unrests stems from the Maidan revolt, a revolt which (as just as it was in its conclusion) broke the fragile political balance between Ukrainian and Russian-Ukrainian, and created the basis for a counter-revolt.
How wouldnt the eastern-Ukrainians have legitimacy to influence Ukraines shape and future if they hadnt rebeled? Nobody was gonna take their votingrights. They would have had legitimacy like any other regular citizen. And no it didnt start without Russia. Considering that the Eastern-Ukrainians are shouting the same bullshit against Kiev, that russian media has been throwing around at its own enemies for over 10 years, it almost feels as if they had zero cause for it themselves, but are utterly doing Russias exact bidding.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 24, 2014, 05:25:15 pm
Murmi, it's pretty simple:
When you stop posting nonsense ramblings, I'll stop asking you to stop posting nonsense ramblings, deal?

You're just pulling shit out of your arse w/o anything to back it and even if you try to back it, you're doing it with known bullshit-sources. Not mention showing off half-knowledge sold as facts.

You're the one polluting this thread with far fetched crap which mostly even goes wildly off-topic. Hell, even Tovi back in here posting would be an improvement compared to you.
Maybe you should try lemons? I heard vitamins are good for health - maybe even with mental health issues... -.-
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 24, 2014, 06:23:19 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 02:52:31 pm
How wouldnt the eastern-Ukrainians have legitimacy to influence Ukraines shape and future if they hadnt rebeled? Nobody was gonna take their votingrights. They would have had legitimacy like any other regular citizen.

You seem to think that if there had been a legal vote for Maidan in the first place, the Ukraine would have been unanimous about where the country had to go after Yanukovitch bouts.
After Maidan was over and the government kicked out and replaced with 100% "new cool generation" pro-EU politicians, with various extraordinary changes to the laws of the country and the signing of various long-debated over trade deals... you really think those who didnt agree with all this would all duly wait for the next election?
The snap election which saw Poroshenko become president didnt even take place in the regions of Ukraine where there was most of the opposition, due to the already ongoing rebellion.


Most changes which requires dramatic changes like constitution changes, shuffling the entire government, evicting from office, requires a referendum or 2/3 of the votes from parliament/senate or a re-election, in most democratic country. Thats regular voting rights and citizenship. The use of such rules is to guarantee the stability of a country and to ensure that most of the countrymen are happy with the states of affairs through direct control or representatives.

Obviously, its not what happened here in the two situations. Both movements were/are using irregular and unlawful methods, why would one be more legitimate than the other?



Quote from: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 02:52:31 pm
And no it didnt start without Russia.

And Russia directly shot the MH117 and is invading Ukraine for 6 months in a row.

Eastern Ukraine unrest chronology :

- 23 february : Euromaidan is over and a success
- 23 february : various unrests starts in most of the eastern half of Ukraine
- 26 february : Crimea unrest is backed by garrisoned Russian troops

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

______________________
- 26 february - 17 march : Crimea is progressively annexed
______________________
- 26 february - 12 april : all other regions have 0 eminent Russian involvement and support (other than the all-purpose accusation of organising protests and spreading the dissatisfaction)
- 13 april : the first ever non-Crimean para-military administrative building occupation action (russian masked green men)

More detailed timeline for the bravest here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine)



From 23 february to the 13 april, Russia was only involved in Crimea.
And if those green men were not russian soldiers, the next date would be when Luhanks and Donetsk Oblast became military backed by Russia, and go put a date on that  :P
I'm not even talking of before the end of Maidan, anti-Maidan protests of small importance had already started to emerge.



You are able to draw a line between Ukrainian protesters/insurgents and Russia's interests, why dont you do it? You will understand every points of view without falling into anyone traps.



Quote
Murm & others

You remind me of the good old time in this thread  :oops:




P.S.: EDIT OVER, PFEW.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 06:42:29 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 24, 2014, 06:23:19 pm
You seem to think that if there had been a legal vote for Maidan in the first place, the Ukraine would have been unanimous about where the country had to go after Yanukovitch bouts.
After Maidan was over and the government kicked out and replaced with 100% pro-EU politicians, with various extraordinary changes to the laws of the country and the signing of various long-debated over trade deals... you really think those who didnt agree with all this would all duly wait for the next election? :lol:
The snap election which saw Poroshenko become president didnt even take place in the regions of Ukraine where there was most of the opposition, due to the already ongoing rebellion.

Because Maidans events were basically a government unshakling itself free from an empire. Pretty sure if Ukr would have told both EU and Russia to go fuck themselves, EU wouldnt have done jackshit about it, while Russia I assume would have acted the same as it does now, if not even worse. A lot of countries are anti-EU and they can still have relations with them. The only time the West sanctions someones ass is if their way of governing has too many human casualties or limits the freedoms of their citizens too much. Eastern-Ukr main goal is to become an extension of Russia. Thats 2 completely different things.

And I dont see how being replaced by 100% pro-EU politicians with significant changes to the laws and deals was such a bad thing. They didnt consist things like speaking french and being forced to drink finnish vodka. Russians could still russia in Ukr. So I dont really get your mindset here. Case in point no country that switched sides from Russia to EU ever got poorer and their russian minorities all lived all the same. So basically theres no historical background either, to prove that switching to EU makes lives for the russian minorities harded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 24, 2014, 07:10:29 pm
http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/donezk/separatisten-fuehren-gefangene-soldaten-vor-37377610.bild.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 24, 2014, 07:30:09 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 24, 2014, 06:23:19 pm
you really think those who didnt agree with all this would all duly wait for the next election?

It's amusing that you would say that given that the "rebellion" started only a few weeks (or not even that) before the elections took place. Those eastern Ukrainians (lol) sure aren't patient.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 08:01:13 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2014, 05:25:15 pm
Murmi, it's pretty simple:
When you stop posting nonsense ramblings, I'll stop asking you to stop posting nonsense ramblings, deal?

You're just pulling shit out of your arse w/o anything to back it and even if you try to back it, you're doing it with known bullshit-sources. Not mention showing off half-knowledge sold as facts.

You're the one polluting this thread with far fetched crap which mostly even goes wildly off-topic. Hell, even Tovi back in here posting would be an improvement compared to you.
Maybe you should try lemons? I heard vitamins are good for health - maybe even with mental health issues... -.-

I've backed my words and claims far more so than those of you holding different views on the situation, and especially more so than you Molly. You've really contributed fuck all to this thread in the past 10 or so pages, I haven't been in the thread long so I don't really know how far back your useless sleazy, smarmy off topic comments have been polluting the thread.

If you think my arguments are flawed or I'm pulling them out of my arse then call me out on them, make a point to "correct" my way of thinking and the information that I've provided rather than toss shit like an ape while being as smarmy a cunt as you can be, all while actually providing very little in terms of substance in this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 08:03:02 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 01:25:53 pm
Right to determine their own future? By that you mean right to determine russian law in Ukrainain soil. You are kinda like Butan here, who assumes if in some countries province a minority overpopulates the native population they should have the right to break appart from that country. By that logic in a few years Germany should have to give some of its lands where there are more turks than germans to Turkey, cause the turkish people have "a right to determine their own future". Way to support annexation via overpopulating.

If they really feel like they would have a better life under Russias wing than move to Russia, dont fucking try to turn it into Russia.

Hey if the majority of the region wanted more autonomy and the Ukrainian government refused this and ignored their wishes, the very government they had little to no part in installing, and electing then I support their decision to carve out the land on which many have lived for generations, (even before the Ukrainian state existed) in an attempt to determine self rule. Don't get me wrong I don't view this shit with rose tinted glasses as some other commenters sympathetic to the Rebels cause and Russia's national interest in the region, I understand that Russia is interfering in Ukraine, but no more or less so than the West, what's good for NATO must be what's good for the world right? After all I don't remember any of you anti-Russian posters condemning the repeated NATO and NATO state interference and aggression in nations scattered around the globe.

NATO member state aggression which toppled Gaddafi ONLY THREE YEARS AGO. Which lead to chaos, endless bloodshed and then..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/24/libya-capital-under-islamist-control-tripoli-airport-seized-operation-dawn

^^^

Backing shit up right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 08:33:32 pm
Sooo your point is if NATO is bad, Russia can be bad too? Once again, majority of Western citizens dont support anything that nato has done, we dont really discuss this cause...well we know so little about it. We arent brainwashed and we arent just haters of all war. We can see well enough that nato is screwing shit up more than saving it. Frankly we just dont know enough about Syria or Lybia to form an opinion if it was good or bad. So honestly all we got is someones word for it. We do know shitloads about Russia however and there are people who know about Ukraine aswell. So once again the statement you made a few pages back that we are all brainwashed by bad natopropaganda is just untrue. Majority of people are not rooting for the wars NATO commits itself to. We arent like majority of russians on the internet or everywhere else for that matter: "wohooo to war with everything that Kremlin doesnt like, that way we can be more relevant". Now that my friend, is proof of an effective propaganda hatecampaign.

I am happy as hell that NATO didnt go through with its plan of invading Syria and basically handicapping its military. That would have fucked up the country so badly that every warlord and terroristic organisation would have called dibs on the land. As it is happening right now, but atleast the government can put up a resistance now. If nato would have gone through with their shit, it would have been forced to leave a lot of troops and equipment there to hold back the religious nutjubgroups for a quite long time, or just leave the country at its own demise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 09:03:38 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 24, 2014, 08:33:32 pm
Sooo your point is if NATO is bad, Russia can be bad too? Once again, majority of Western citizens dont support anything that nato has done, we dont really discuss this cause...well we know so little about it. We arent brainwashed and we arent just haters of all war. We can see well enough that nato is screwing shit up more than saving it. Frankly we just dont know enough about Syria or Lybia to form an opinion if it was good or bad. So honestly all we got is someones word for it. We do know shitloads about Russia however and there are people who know about Ukraine aswell. So once again the statement you made a few pages back that we are all brainwashed by bad natopropaganda is just untrue. Majority of people are not rooting for the wars NATO commits itself to. We arent like majority of russians on the internet or everywhere else for that matter: "wohooo to war with everything that Kremlin doesnt like, that way we can be more relevant". Now that my friend, is proof of an effective propaganda hatecampaign.

I am happy as hell that NATO didnt go through with its plan of invading Syria and basically handicapping its military. That would have fucked up the country so badly that every warlord and terroristic organisation would have called dibs on the land. As it is happening right now, but atleast the government can put up a resistance now. If nato would have gone through with their shit, it would have been forced to leave a lot of troops and equipment there to hold back the religious nutjubgroups for a quite long time, or just leave the country at its own demise.

No that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that Russia hasn't even behaved half as bad as NATO and yet the media and some sections of society perpetuate anti Russian hype as though Russia has been as every bit as aggressive and violent as NATO has been this century, when it reality it has not, and the very same media and largely the same sections of society largely ignored and even supported NATO's aggression which was pushed through with anti-targeted state propaganda being broadcast on Western media 24/7.

The Libyan conflict and overthrow of Gaddafi was the first conflict I followed from start to, well where the conflict, situation has led to now. I did this through media sources both mainstream media sources and alternative media sources, western and eastern mainstream media. I did some googling on the history of certain conflicts, political conflicts in the 20th/21st century, seen numerous videos of so called experts in their field offering their opinions on the political state of the world... There's so much you can find on the internet and a lot of it may be propaganda, some of it may be fake, some of it may be politicised what ever, just do what you can to find this information and decide for yourself what makes sense, what's more likely to be the truth, what's more credible. Because I sure as hell don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, that would be unwise.

Personally there's a lot about everything I know fuck all about, you may know more about Russia than me, but  to state that "we do know shitloads about Russia", based on what? Who is the "we" and where did you get this shitloads of information from huh? What was the source, what was the sources interest in the subject, did it come across as bias in any way? Did you even analyse it at all before accepting that information as given?

For example, if Western mainstream media was my only source of information I would be under the impression that the Rebels were pretty much finished in East Ukraine.. Luckily I view information from multiple sources, even sources that I openly criticise for spreading Western propaganda, I don't completely write them off, I use their information and miss-information to help me form what I believe to the truths in geopolitical situations and crisis.

Someone posted this video to liveleak today, I don't seem to get the impression the rebels are even close to being crushed by the Ukrainian government.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a87_1408887989

And this.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=616_1408888475

^^^ Of course you can write the videos off as propaganda, only recorded by people on the ground in the actual region recording real people, real destroyed tanks, unlike that ghost convoy the Ukrainian government claimed to have destroyed.

But you know me, I'm only trying to back my shit up, since I've been accused by two idiots of not being able to do so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 24, 2014, 09:31:22 pm
What is happening now: the Ukraine is led by fascists and partly by naz-is who all bomb civilians in the east... This government of fascists was set in through a coup with the help of the US-government.

The US are already controlling Europe and - by wars disguised as "democratic" wars, which were offensive wars - the Middle East along with it's resources.
Through the situation I wrote concerning the Ukraine, you can say that the US have advanced to the "forecourt" of Russia. Through the fair referendum on Crimea, the US/NATO have received a setback. Of course, the US-subjected mass media called the referendum wrong and it is a farce and so on.
Imagine the following situation: You meet someone on the street. This person is punching you in the face all the time. And at some point you have to punch back. But then you are the bad one, and everyone praises the strange person.
With the help of this image I gave to you, we must go a bit back in history:
In 1990 NATO promised Russia that there will be no further expansion to the east...
(click to show/hide)

The real rivals of the US-government are the following countries: Russia, China and Iran. Russia is the most powerful one, so Russia is the primary target. And many, many things have been done, and many lies were spread, just to call Russia the bad one. Especially MH17. Of course it's sad that people died, but I can surely say, it was not Russia which shot it down. If you still think, it was Russia or Putin, please show me proof!

The mass media are also a big problem. All of us are becoming prepared for a war against Russia. Russia is currently being forced to intervene in something. Russia is forced to do something. Then the war will begin. On European territory.
When I read things like "STOP PUTIN NOW" concerning MH17 or this:
(click to show/hide)
concerning the aid trucks, i feel like "can the chairmen of these media still look in the mirror?" It's not the normal journalists who like to propagate against Russia. Many journalists are suffering because they are not allowed to tell the truth if they know it. Either keep your job and spread lies, or lose your job and get hated by the media, so by most of the population. That's the life of a journalist at least here in Germany.

This picture is showing pretty simply, how things are displayed in mass media:
(click to show/hide)

And this one shows what mass media is doing with us:
(click to show/hide)

So all in all I can say that we are all set on the wrong track. We reached a point, which we already had in history. European folks are being readied for a war against Russia through war propaganda and the fascist government in the Ukraine is supported. Humanitarian aid for the civilians by Russia is denied and called “invasion” but supply of weapons and money from the west is praised. These weapons will then of course be either used against the eastern population or in the big war. So choose wisely who to support in the Ukraine-crisis.
I don’t want war and I don’t want to be “represented” by a fascist-supporting Merkel
(click to show/hide)

I also want to clarify that I am not talking about the folks, I am talking about the governments who caused all this shit. The folks will be the losers. From the US folk to the European folk to the Russian folk.


The Russians also love their kids.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 24, 2014, 09:35:56 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 24, 2014, 09:38:03 pm
Edit: Nvm  :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 24, 2014, 09:46:02 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 24, 2014, 09:31:22 pm
What is happening now: the Ukraine is led by fascists and partly by naz-is who all bomb civilians in the east... This government of fascists was set in through a coup with the help of the US-government.

You are still parroting this bullshit? Oh wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 10:01:36 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 24, 2014, 09:31:22 pm
What is happening now: the Ukraine is led by fascists and partly by naz-is who all bomb civilians in the east... This government of fascists was set in through a coup with the help of the US-government.
<...>
Stopped reading right there. This is what putler wants you to believe to justify his bullshit in Ukraine.

@Murmi Because I sure as hell don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, that would be unwise. - you basically admitted that you/your family already did this by engaging in business with and being dependent on russia. Any BIAS maybe, no? Shamfur dispray, go suck lemons.
Hey if the majority of the region wanted more autonomy and the Ukrainian government refused this - the second part of your statement is a lie and you are a liar.
"we do know shitloads about Russia", based on what? Based on national and personal experience. Hell, even UK had some pieces of that experience (see the whole Litvinenko business), and you are still a sheep. And a liar.

@Butan - you sound naive, when you ignore what russian media was cooking up on their airwaves. Also - protests - a MINORITY in those regions wanted to join russia, even if about half were not happy with what was happening in Maidan. So tell me - how that minority manged to screw this whole eastern part of country to hell without external help? And when you state that there is no chance for a nation within a nation to debate becoming a separate state - look at friggin Scotland for a proper example. Wanabee separatists in the ease were never going to be happy with anything Ukraine government suggested to them and that was plain clear from the start. Not even worth saying "told you so".
As to legitimacy - Ukraine parliament IS legitimately elected, Ukraine president IS legitimately elected, even if the just-after-maidan episode was not legal to the letter. Comparing a peaceful-protest-which-turned-violent-due-to-government-actions to armed-occupation-of-buildings-and-sham-referendums-in-favor-of-separatism is BS of QUITE some caliber. If Yanukovich was ANYWHERE near being a responsible president - he would have stepped down and vacated the seat, instead he acted as a russian puppet and a coward.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 10:25:01 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 10:01:36 pm
Stopped reading right there. This is what putler wants you to believe to justify his bullshit in Ukraine.

@Murmi Because I sure as hell don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, that would be unwise. - you basically admitted that you/your family already did this by engaging in business with and being dependent on russia. Any BIAS maybe, no? Shamfur dispray, go suck lemons.
Hey if the majority of the region wanted more autonomy and the Ukrainian government refused this - the second part of your statement is a lie and you are a liar.
"we do know shitloads about Russia", based on what? Based on national and personal experience. Hell, even UK had some pieces of that experience (see the whole Litvinenko business), and you are still a sheep. And a liar.

@Butan - you sound naive, when you ignore what russian media was cooking up on their airwaves. Also - protests - a MINORITY in those regions wanted to join russia, even if about half were not happy with what was happening in Maidan. So tell me - how that minority manged to screw this whole eastern part of country to hell without external help? And when you state that there is no chance for a nation within a nation to debate becoming a separate state - look at friggin Scotland for a proper example. Wanabee separatists in the ease were never going to be happy with anything Ukraine government suggested to them and that was plain clear from the start. Not even worth saying "told you so".
As to legitimacy - Ukraine parliament IS legitimately elected, Ukraine president IS legitimately elected, even if the just-after-maidan episode was not legal to the letter. Comparing a peaceful-protest-which-turned-violent-due-to-government-actions to armed-occupation-of-buildings-and-sham-referendums-in-favor-of-separatism is BS of QUITE some caliber. If Yanukovich was ANYWHERE near being a responsible president - he would have stepped down and vacated the seat, instead he acted as a russian puppet and a coward.

I have no idea what the fuck you are on about. Are you on some drugs or something? You can't stop dragging up my family and can't stop sticking words in my mouth. Please quote where I have stated that me and my family depend on Russia. Please quote where I have stated I am doing business with Russia or that I even have a business in the first place. Where are you getting these ideas from, your imagination?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 10:33:04 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 23, 2014, 12:51:15 am
<...>
If Putin places sanctions on the U.K which may affect myself and my family I would blame my government for its lack of competence in the diplomatic arena.
<...>
Did I misunderstood that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 11:30:29 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 10:33:04 pm
Did I misunderstood that?

Most likely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 24, 2014, 11:32:02 pm
This thead keeps getting better. At some point I believed nobody would top murmillus but anuran is doing one hell of a show.

I mean.... the gems... it's too much

Quote from: Anuran on August 24, 2014, 09:31:22 pm
The real rivals of the US-government are the following countries: Russia, China and Iran. Russia is the most powerful one

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 25, 2014, 12:29:57 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 24, 2014, 10:01:36 pm
Comparing a peaceful-protest-which-turned-violent-due-to-government-actions to armed-occupation-of-buildings-and-sham-referendums-in-favor-of-separatism is BS of QUITE some caliber.


You're mixing everything up if you can say that unrest in the east is armed-occupation-of-buildings-and-sham-referendums-in-favor-of-separatism right from the start. You're a step lower than Tibe in the chronology, but still not quite where it began.

Protests in the east were peaceful at first (as peaceful as demonstrations with rocks/molotovs) but turned into armed insurgency after nothing changed and crackdowns then ATO began.
Sham referendums were done by the auto-proclamed separatists, which formed around the same time the insurgency armed itself.


If the Yanukovitch government had managed to stays at the reins even after the bloody days of Maidan, the peaceful protests would have went into the same stages of metamorphosis.


You mark a point when you talk about them not having the ressources to resist to the armed repression of Kiev, if Russia wasnt there they would be long gone. That would have been for the better?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 25, 2014, 01:51:15 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26248275

23-26 February: Parliament names speaker Olexander Turchynov as interim president. An arrest warrant is issued for Mr Yanukovych, and the acting president warns of the dangers of separatism. Members of the proposed new government appear before demonstrators, with Arseniy Yatsenyuk nominated prime minister. The elite Berkut police unit, blamed for deaths of protesters, is disbanded.

27-28 February: Pro-Russian gunmen seize key buildings in the Crimean capital, Simferopol. Unidentified gunmen in combat uniforms appear outside Crimea's main airports. At his first news conference since fleeing to Russia, Mr Yanukovych insists he remains president.

1 March: Russia's parliament approves Vladimir Putin's request to use force in Ukraine to protect Russian interests. Pro-Russian rallies are held in several Ukrainian cities outside Crimea, including the second-biggest city Kharkiv. Barack Obama tells Mr Putin to pull forces back to bases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine

On 1 March 2014, the council of Luhansk Oblast, Ukraine's easternmost region, voted to demand giving the Russian language the status of second official language, stop "persecution of Berkut fighters", disarm Maidan self-defense units and ban a number of political organizations like Svoboda and UNA-UNSO. They threatened the Ukrainian central authorities that it reserved the right "to ask for help from the brotherly people of the Russian Federation".[1] Pro-Russian citizens held a rally of up to 5,000 against the new government and demanding a referendum on whether to join Russia.[2][3][4][5]

4 March
Pro-Russian separatists consolidated their control of the local Regional Administration in Donetsk.[33] Pavel Gubarev was elected governor, and told reporters that work on the structure of the new administration is being done.[33] "We don't want to give our money any more to Kiev. We want more freedom for our city in a new federation or confederation that allows us to embrace the friendly ties and positive feelings towards us of the people of Russia," Gubarev said.

13 March: Ukraine's parliament votes to create a 60,000-strong National Guard to defend the country.

6 April
1,000–2,000 pro-Russia protesters attended a rally in Donetsk pushing for a Crimea-style referendum on independence from Ukraine.[151] After which 200 separatists took control of the first two floors of the building. The pro-Russian protesters broke down doors and smashed windows. The administration headquarters were empty, with only guards inside, as Government officials don't work on Sundays.[151] The separatists demanded that if an extraordinary session was not held by officials announcing a referendum to join Russia, they would declare unilateral control by forming a 'People's Mandate' at noon on 7 April, and "dismiss" all elected council members and MPs.[152][153][154] Residents of Donetsk submitted an open letter calling for the acting president of Ukraine to protect them from the pro-Russian separatists.[155]

So, yea...Peaceful, to forcefully trying to change the area to Russia, day 1.

There wasn't any "negotiation" just a "We hate you, we stronk Russian."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 25, 2014, 04:47:38 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 25, 2014, 06:20:49 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 24, 2014, 09:03:38 pm
No that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that Russia hasn't even behaved half as bad as NATO and yet the media and some sections of society perpetuate anti Russian hype as though Russia has been as every bit as aggressive and violent as NATO has been this century, when it reality it has not, and the very same media and largely the same sections of society largely ignored and even supported NATO's aggression which was pushed through with anti-targeted state propaganda being broadcast on Western media 24/7.

Gonna stop you right there. You do realise Russia hasnt behaved so badly cause its NATO that keeps it in check. Look at the map of countries. Every country Russia borders has a puppeted government or is either to big to invade or is Nato. They are boxed in now and thank god for that. The assholes were so desperate to invade something that they even called dibs on the Arctic and basically told the rest of the world to fuck off. Not to mention unlike Natos trainingexercises, Russias yearly militarytrainings involve things like basically nuking Warsaw and invading the Baltic in less than a week. We dont know for certain, but atleast in Europe, Natos presence has done more good. But ofcourse things like could have, should have, would have are hardly convincing statements.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 25, 2014, 10:20:46 am
Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 04:47:38 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXelxAdU4d0
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 25, 2014, 10:31:18 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 25, 2014, 10:57:27 am
Military analysis, for russian speakers : https://www.youtube.com/user/Vesna2014
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 25, 2014, 11:14:41 am
Quote from: Tovi on August 25, 2014, 10:57:27 am
Military analysis, for russian speakers : https://www.youtube.com/user/Vesna2014

I find it quite funny. Starting with the "people who were living on revenues from contraband now started insurgency in the south, near sea." RIIIiiiiiight...

Then stopped somewhere where "junta" and "naztees indoctrinated figthers" BS started... Pointless waste of time to listen to "analyses" like this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 25, 2014, 11:18:26 am
Obviously; Kiev's generals think like you  :lol:
The "Cauldron tactic" is interesting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 25, 2014, 01:42:17 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 25, 2014, 01:51:15 am
(click to show/hide)

I dont see your point? You repeat what I posted.
Except actions in Crimea, not a trace of russian back up right till mid-april. Until then it was classic unarmed civilian occupying administrative buildings and protesting in the streets, which continued even after the insurgency armed itself.

Its incredible how you can end up with a totally different conclusion from the same exact link I posted and explained  :shock: why do you extrapolate that Russia has something to do with :

1march: Luhansk Oblast is against Maidan, ask for resolutions, rally of 5000 people
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL08Ad5PZmc

4march: same happens in Donetsk
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp3HM5sjrvg

6 april: protests in Donetsk where they take control of administrative buildings
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsRtbFqpNUs

visitors can't see pics , please register or login




Tell me where you see Russia here?  :rolleyes:
If you answer "we see russian flags, people chant "Russia", those are pro-russian protesters", then you're a lost cause.
Protests across Ukraine during Maidan happened, it was not only in Kiev.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


During those protests, what happened mostly?
Unarmed people protested in the streets, occupied buildings, chanting slogan of Europe and waving european union flag.
Does it mean there was Europe involved?



I feel we are going in circle, slowly closer to the actual point.
Maybe in 10 years everyone will be convinced.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 25, 2014, 02:01:49 pm
Did you read the timeline I posted?

Within 1 day of the russian invasion of Crimea, eastern UKR starts to revolt. Within 3 days, they are storming and seizing weapons and setting up their own governments outside of UKR control. That's not protest, that's civil disturbance and civil revolt.

Course, local Police try to retake government building, but 1 month after protests start, with more than enough overtures from Kiev, they begin legitimate, armed rebellion. Also, before all this, the "little green men" that were in Crimea start appearing in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Here's something better, far more Pro-Rus riots went on than the singular maidan one, in far more Oblasts(?) yet, the moment far east started going violent, they stopped rioting and started fighting against "Russia."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 02:07:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 25, 2014, 11:14:41 am
Then stopped somewhere where "junta" and "naztees indoctrinated figthers" BS started...

Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer
(click to show/hide)

Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)
(click to show/hide)
Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 25, 2014, 02:46:07 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 02:07:15 pm
Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer
(click to show/hide)

Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)
(click to show/hide)
Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.

Yatsenyuk, the first neo-nazi leader on earth who gets called "thieving jew" by actual neo-nazis.

The reality is that Svoboda, which is the only far right party in the majority, holds 35 seats in the Rada. Those seats aren't even necessary for the majority. In the presidential elections Svoboda and Right Sector candidates together represented less than 2% of the votes (compared to the results of e.g. French or Dutch far right candidates, this is amazing). A look at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Ministers_of_Ukraine quickly tells me that Svoboda now has one vice prime minister, the ministry of agrarian policy and food and the ministry of ecology and natural resources of Ukraine. Wow such neonazi government. I bet the food ministry is secretly putting 6 million jewish potatoes in ovens to make jewish crisps.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 25, 2014, 03:06:20 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 02:07:15 pm
Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer
(click to show/hide)

Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)
(click to show/hide)
Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.
You are using a cheap rhetoric. Just because civilians are dying (and only an idiot would deny this) - does not mean UKR government is naztees, but you somehow imply that, or am I mistaken? HOWEVER - for a comparison on how many civilians are dead due to military actions see recent history of russian wars in chechnya. I claim, that you should be able to deduct from the numbers (approx 3 mil living in chechnya, 40 000-100 000 dead during the conflict, not counting troops, VS ~8 mil living in Donetsk + Lugansk areas, vs ~2-3k dead) that the way war is being waged is quite milder, than what one would expect from hysterical putlers media crying about bombed cities. So STFU.

I doubt that there are fascists in Ukraine's government. Guys with strong right-views? Maybe. Nationalists? Definitely yes. Naztees? No. An incidental picture is a laughable proof. Oh, and for the record - naztees used RIGHT hand, not left - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/chocolate chip cookie_salute. You got to do better than that. Also - given how those naztees Ukrainians gave around 5% to the wannabe naztee leader during president ellections - I would argue that your claim is a lie, which putler wants you to believe.
"Some members of svoboda"... please name them and shame them. I would be more than happy to look up their naztee histories! Otherwise I call you a liar, just like murmi is.
Yatsenuk waving a hand is nazteee.... yeah... well... INCIDENTALLY - Putin does something similar sometimes! SHOCKING NEWS! Also - its a well known gesture of waving ones hand to a crowd... Do you want some lemmons to suck?
(click to show/hide)
I think that nationalist groups, who DO include extrem right-wing guys, are fighting for Ukraine agains insurgents supported by russia in a direct attempt to destabilize neighboring country. Does it proove that all Ukraine army and volunteers are naztees? No, it does not. You want me to believe otherwise? You will have to do better than "some 2 girs eat shit from a cup. thus all girls who have a cup are shit eaters" analogies.

Oh, and Tovi, Anuran - in case you think, that the weekend parade of captives is pig-like behavior, which describes separatists well - fret no more! Nothing humiliating happened there:
https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/503825302410506241
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 02:07:15 pm
Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...

Blah blah blah stop the god damn pro russian shilling, it's getting annoying.

I like how people like you say ukraine is run by evil nazeees and svoboda rules and say that the military bombards civilians for fun like animals?Bullshit. Guess what, who is hiding behind civilian targets? Oh.
How come you always forget about the part of insurgents hiding their asses in civilian areas so they can brag about genocide?
Doesn't fit your parroting bullshit much to see it from that side, eh?

If you are so fucking concerned about the death of civilians (which you are not, you just use it for your shit agenda to brag about), then you guys should ask russia and the separatists to meet the 'fascists' out in the open, in a fair fight.

..But then they would be destroyed within a day? Oh.

Quote from: Kafein on August 25, 2014, 02:46:07 pm
Yatsenyuk, the first neo-nazi leader on earth who gets called "thieving jew" by actual neo-nazis.

The reality is that Svoboda, which is the only far right party in the majority, holds 35 seats in the Rada. Those seats aren't even necessary for the majority. In the presidential elections Svoboda and Right Sector candidates together represented less than 2% of the votes (compared to the results of e.g. French or Dutch far right candidates, this is amazing). A look at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Ministers_of_Ukraine quickly tells me that Svoboda now has one vice prime minister, the ministry of agrarian policy and food and the ministry of ecology and natural resources of Ukraine. Wow such neonazi government. I bet the food ministry is secretly putting 6 million jewish potatoes in ovens to make jewish crisps.

Thanks, really good explanation, couldn't be arsed to put numbers up.

Also won't be able to look at potato chips the same way ever again

Poor Latvia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 25, 2014, 03:49:48 pm
Christo I thought you like Dramas. BTW separatists already fight in the open field, they have high spirit. Last days they captured more then 500 armed vehicles. And as I know ussualy not ukranian army bombs civilians(they do it too) but most of the time it has been doing by national guard, which mostly consists of "right sector" and other volunteers which are sponsored by oligarches like Kolomoyskiy. It is my opinion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:54:20 pm
I do, I do.

But this starts to get a 'little bit' boring to read again and again and again and again, 395 pages in.

500 armed vehicles? That sounds like some serious overexaggeration.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 25, 2014, 03:57:18 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:54:20 pm
<...>
500 armed vehicles? That sounds like some serious overexaggeration.
No, that sounds like RT reporting. RELIABLE AND ON TIME!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 25, 2014, 04:49:01 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 02:07:15 pm
Kuujis, do you doubt that civilians are bombarded and killed in the eastern Ukraine? I don't think you want to see pictures of dead civilians lying on the streets...
Do you doubt that fascists are part of the government of the Ukraine? Ever heard of “Svoboda”? Here you can see its Führer
(click to show/hide)

Some members of the Svoboda party are now sitting in the Ukrainian government.
Yatsenyuk also called his enemies “subhumans” (in german: “Untermenschen” this word was used by the naz-is)
(click to show/hide)
Do you doubt that right-wing militia groups are fighting against the separatists, but together with the ukr. army? Even the german mass medium ARD interviewed them and is not even ashamed of doing it. A speaker of the "Right Sector" offered help to the ukrainian president. And now, the "Right Sector" (or even more right-wing militia organisations) are fighting on the side of the ukr. army, supported by the government of the Ukraine.

Ye the actual fasc ists in the government are barely even there. I think we have been through this atleast 10 times in this thread now, but I quess pro-rus propaganda is just so convincing one starts lacking logic of how governments work entirely. You got 1 person in your government that admitted being fas cist? BAM! You all na zis now, burn in hell!

And nobody is doubting that civilians are getting bombed at in Eastern-Ukraine. We all seen the pictures. But again its completely idiotic to think its all work of Kiev. Locals have pretty much stated that their homes got bombed to shite from separatist positions and later by pro-government forces aswell. So they are caught in the middle of both forces bombing eachother. Which is basically a logical assumption, AGAIN something I said was happening many pages ago in this thread and now I got vids to back that claim. WTF people? Seriuslly? Its kinda wierd anyone even questioned me on this one. If someone shoots 1000s of bombs at the enemy and a town is in the middle of the bombs route its kinda impossible not to hit the town. The separatists dont have auto-aim to avoid civiliancasualties. Its just common sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 04:55:16 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
Blah blah blah stop the god damn pro russian shilling, it's getting annoying.
 
So I am pro-russian just because I want this war to end? Interesting point of view. I am very sure that many people in Europe and America also want it to end, if they know about the dangers. Calling me pro-russian just because of that, is just a knockout argument… I'm also not alleging you that you want the civilians to be killed just to not be “pro-russian”. Cause this is just senseless.

Conclusion on how this logic looks like to me: stop killing civilians, against war  = pro-russian, not pro-russian = at least don’t care about dead civilians, don’t care about war…

Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
I like how people like you say […]
“People like me”? What kind of people are “like me”? And what kind of people are the ones who seem to avow for a different view?

Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
I like how people like you say ukraine is run by evil nazeees and svoboda rules
I said, they are part of the government. If they were really elected – and I don’t want to completely negate that – then I accept the people’s decision.

Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
the military bombards civilians for fun like animals
I never said they bombard civilians “for fun”

Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
Guess what, who is hiding behind civilian targets? Oh.
How come you always forget about the part of insurgents hiding their asses in civilian areas so they can brag about genocide?
 
I know that the separatists are in these towns. I’m not that stupid. But why bomb the whole cities?
Christo, as I have seen in your profile, you live in Hungary. Now imagine the following: There are quite many insurgents in your town who feel like Austrians or Romanians or Slovakians or whatever (don’t know exactly where in Hungary you live but nvm). So they start protests. And not only in your town, but in many towns nearby. Of course your government won’t support their claims and starts bombing your town and the others just because the insurgents are hiding there. You lose your living place or even more… And the big majority in the other European and American countries ignores your suffering or even supports the bombings, just because they don’t want to be called “pro-austrian” or “pro-slovakian” or whatever. Think about it please…

So let me take your sentence now: :)

Quote from: Christo on August 25, 2014, 03:13:01 pm
Doesn't fit your parroting bullshit much to see it from that side, eh?
 

Conclusion: You and some others display me as completely dumb and media-blinded, I noticed that already. But is saying “Putler” much better then? You are ascribing things to me I never said, did you notice that? You haven’t read properly what I actually wrote. In my eyes you want to represent the entire opposite, but I can’t imagine that.
Don’t think too unilateral in an Either-Or-Way. Also take a look on the other sides.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 25, 2014, 05:17:54 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 04:55:16 pm
You are ascribing things to me I never said, did you notice that?

You are ascribing things to me I never said, did you notice that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 25, 2014, 05:56:25 pm
http://militarymaps.info/ Map of military operations in real time. Versions of all of the parties to modify the map. You can make changes. Very soon describe events will Serr. District Voenstroi, Zaporozhye... Hammers-boomerangs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 25, 2014, 06:26:35 pm
There is a possibility from 500 captured vehicles, a part of them are "gifted" material.

That would be a good way to whitewash military support.
It is also true that the Ukrainian army is losing equipment to the rebels...

As with counting "real rebels" opposed to "russian soldiers", its hard to tell where people/gun/tank come from exactly.


Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on August 25, 2014, 05:56:25 pm
http://militarymaps.info/ Map of military operations in real time. Versions of all of the parties to modify the map. You can make changes. Very soon describe events will Serr. District Voenstroi, Zaporozhye... Hammers-boomerangs


Wow, nice shit.

Who feed information unto this?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 25, 2014, 06:35:05 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on August 25, 2014, 05:56:25 pm
http://militarymaps.info/ Map of military operations in real time. Versions of all of the parties to modify the map. You can make changes. Very soon describe events will Serr. District Voenstroi, Zaporozhye... Hammers-boomerangs
Out of curiosity. One flaggyicon represents how big troopsize?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 25, 2014, 08:08:00 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 25, 2014, 06:26:35 pm
There is a possibility from 500 captured vehicles, a part of them are "gifted" material.
Most of them would be. There's no way the separatists just "capture 500 armed vehicles." A mechanized infantry battalion would have, what, 50ish vehicles tops.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 09:30:28 pm
https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/503976211891367936
Poroshenko signed a decree in Kiev and dissolved the parliament.
Within the next 60 days a new election will come. A speaker said the date could be the 26th October.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 25, 2014, 10:11:36 pm
Oh noes, Ukraine´s largest guy, Leonid Stadnik, is dead :( .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 25, 2014, 11:04:39 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 25, 2014, 09:30:28 pm
https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/503976211891367936
Poroshenko signed a decree in Kiev and dissolved the parliament.
Within the next 60 days a new election will come. A speaker said the date could be the 26th October.

If I'm correct, dissolving parliament usually mean reorganizing everything and getting the correct parties into their respective rolls.

I.E. When the party in power loses, parliment is "dissolved" to be replaced by a new group of parties.

Course I'm not a parliamentarian in the US, so I'm not sure how it works exactly.

Quick search:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/25/world/europe/ukraine-parliament/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
"Elections are scheduled for October 26"

Basically it just means: Time to Elect your MP's for the government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 25, 2014, 11:48:19 pm
I think the dissolution was planned, so nothing much new...

http://www.interpretermag.com/moscows-actions-in-ukraine-helping-china-make-siberia-and-central-asia-beijings-near-abroad/ - when is russia allowing a vode in far east to join China?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:07:11 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 25, 2014, 11:04:39 pm
If I'm correct, dissolving parliament usually mean reorganizing everything and getting the correct parties into their respective rolls.

I.E. When the party in power loses, parliment is "dissolved" to be replaced by a new group of parties.

Course I'm not a parliamentarian in the US, so I'm not sure how it works exactly.

Quick search:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/25/world/europe/ukraine-parliament/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
"Elections are scheduled for October 26"

Basically it just means: Time to Elect your MP's for the government.

I believe it's because the parliament is still the same one that voted the last Yanukovitch laws (by the way it's very strange that this "fascist coup"  did not dissolve the previous parliament at gunpoint instantly). That makes it very complicated to have a functioning country.

Also this the RT article: http://rt.com/news/182720-ukraine-parliament-dissove-twitter/
Quote
In late July, following the resignation of the government, Ukraine’s ruling coalition of nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party and the Udar (Strike) party dissolved itself enhancing the prospects for an early vote.
Does anyone still think RT is not biased to the point of fabrication? Udar and Svoboda have less than one third of the seats of the majority in the current parliament, and suddenly it's a ruling coalition of Svoboda and Udar.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 12:13:55 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 24, 2014, 11:32:02 pm
This thead keeps getting better. At some point I believed nobody would top murmillus but anuran is doing one hell of a show.

I mean.... the gems... it's too much

You're competing with Molly for forum douche of the year.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 12:20:58 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 25, 2014, 06:20:49 am
Gonna stop you right there. You do realise Russia hasnt behaved so badly cause its NATO that keeps it in check. Look at the map of countries. Every country Russia borders has a puppeted government or is either to big to invade or is Nato. They are boxed in now and thank god for that. The assholes were so desperate to invade something that they even called dibs on the Arctic and basically told the rest of the world to fuck off. Not to mention unlike Natos trainingexercises, Russias yearly militarytrainings involve things like basically nuking Warsaw and invading the Baltic in less than a week. We dont know for certain, but atleast in Europe, Natos presence has done more good. But ofcourse things like could have, should have, would have are hardly convincing statements.

One could argue that nations throughout the world don't behave so badly because "NATO keeps them in check". However we find ourselves today burdened with the counter argument, that NATO's existence, its presence in the world is divisive and destructive and only seeks to push rival nations into a corner, again cutting the world in two, although instead of communism vs "democracy" it's NATO's hegemony vs sovereign states. The best way to unite factions is to have a common enemy, with NATO playing its war games in every region in the world it wouldn't be surprising if the next world war consists of the world against NATO. NATO's initial purpose was to keep the Soviet Union in check, now its to be world policemen, agents of regime change and projectors of an aggressive foreign policy, it's hard to deny what has happened, it's history. Unlike speculation as to what may have been or what will be or may never come to pass.

Judging by some of the responses here, the consensus is lead by those with the least knowledge on the situation, the most bias towards the pro-Western agenda in Ukraine.. Blatant accusations of Russian propaganda, when we're confronted with Ukrainian propaganda in our Western media every bloody week, "Ukraine says Russia invaded this and invaded that" without a shred of evidence a single shred of fucking evidence. Yet the majority of the evidence being passed around on the internet always appears to back the Russian governments position and opponents of the Ukrainian coup government. Too many people with big mouths shouting with their heads up their arses, too far embedded in their own shit they'd rather attack posters than rebuke their arguments and points which in my view blatantly reveals the weakness in their arguments, don't attack the message just the messenger, you don't have to think to do that.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:42:58 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 12:13:55 am
You're competing with Molly for forum douche of the year.

You're competing with Anuran for forum cretin of the year. By the way Xant already won forum douche.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 12:20:58 am
One could argue that nations throughout the world don't behave so badly because "NATO keeps them in check". However we find ourselves today burdened with the counter argument, that NATO's existence, its presence in the world is divisive and destructive and only seeks to push rival nations into a corner, again cutting the world in two, although instead of communism vs "democracy" it's NATO's hegemony vs sovereign states. NATO's initial purpose was to keep the Soviet Union in check, now its to be world policemen, agents of regime change and projectors of an aggressive foreign policy, it's hard to deny what has happened, it's history. Unlike speculation as to what may have been or what will be.

It's hard to deny that the combined interests of nation states result in wars and genocide. Of course "national sovereignty" is more catchy than "local despotism", and is a great communication asset for dictatorships. Also, NATO is a matter that pertains its members and would-be members. Russia clearly doesn't want to be part of NATO so why is Russia meddling in NATO affairs? The Russian media's constant effort to interpret real or alleged actions of NATO states as some sort of anti-Russian conspiracy (which makes zero sense by the way) is the only thing that could possibly make claims such as "NATO's initial purpose was to keep the Soviet Union in check" not look horribly stupid. If NATO actually followed its "national" interests you'd think Brazil would have been "attacked" by now. But somehow Brazil which is a functioning and peaceful modern democracy with decent human rights doesn't get half as much attention from NATO forces as expansionist local bullies Russia and China.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 26, 2014, 12:48:32 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:42:58 am
You're competing with Anuran for forum cretin of the year. By the way Xant already won forum douche.

WHAT? I don't think I like what you're insinuating.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:49:58 am
Quote from: Xant on August 26, 2014, 12:48:32 am
WHAT? I don't think I like what you're insinuating.

Everybody here believes you are the most annoying person they have ever interacted with.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 01:01:21 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:42:58 am
You're competing with Anuran for forum cretin of the year. By the way Xant already won forum douche.

It's hard to deny that the combined interests of nation states result in wars and genocide. Of course "national sovereignty" is more catchy than "local despotism", and is a great communication asset for dictatorships. Also, NATO is a matter that pertains its members and would-be members. Russia clearly doesn't want to be part of NATO so why is Russia meddling in NATO affairs? The Russian media's constant effort to interpret real or alleged actions of NATO states as some sort of anti-Russian conspiracy (which makes zero sense by the way) is the only thing that could possibly make claims such as "NATO's initial purpose was to keep the Soviet Union in check" not look horribly stupid. If NATO actually followed its "national" interests you'd think Brazil would have been "attacked" by now. But somehow Brazil which is a functioning and peaceful modern democracy with decent human rights doesn't get half as much attention from NATO forces as expansionist local bullies Russia and China.

Yeah, national sovereignty is certainly catchier than "local despotism", because without national sovereignty there is no national identity. When a nation is broken down from the national level its divided into ethnicity, religion, culture and so forth, and unfortunately these aspects in many places around the world are far more divisive than they would be in the Western societies we're accustomed to. Just look what NATO achieved after denying Libya the right to be ruled by its own people, after the West decided who would be allowed to rule Libya we now see the nation in ruins, one that's now rampant with murder, infighting and that's become a jihadist stronghold. One size does not fit all, to have such a mentality is to view our own politics with rose tinted glasses as though every person around the globe holds the same ideals and goals in life that many Westerners do and to think that non-Western countries can be ruled by Western style governments is fantasy. It doesn't work, much of the world is not nearly as developed as the West and therefore the Western model simply does not fit. Every government installed by the West has been rotten and corrupt to the core, you cannot change a leopards spots by throwing dollars at it.

Clearly it is NATO that seeks to meddle with Russian, Iranian, Chinese and other states interests, it is NATO members that are surrounding states with military bases and missile "shields", it is NATO membership that's growing and encroaching on Russian borders, how can you blame the victims and excuse the aggressors Kafeine? (Kind of a silly question, I've made many points about emotionally charged western propaganda encouraging people to form likewise opinions.)

If NATO wiped away its apparently "respectable", "humanitarian" façade then they would easily become an easily exploited target by the free press (what little of it remains), and its geopolitical rivals. The main reason Brazil is largely ignored right now is down to plain old geopolitics. The regions in which NATO interfere the most are regions in which its rival states have natural regional enemies and opponents from which NATO can exploit and manipulate. (In the far East, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan and others), (In Europe, Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Finland, and others), (In Middle-East, Turkey, Saudi-Arabia, Qatar and others). NATO needs to legitimise itself and its actions through formations of multilateral groups of nations and interests, it needs a smoke screen to excuse its actions for without it can easily be accused of being the very threat it purports to keep in check. NATO's goals are purely geopolitical and unipolar in nature with the guise of multilateralism, if it actually upheld the democratic principles you think it does then why does it all too often side with "despots" and "dicatators" when it suits its agenda? Because when you focus on who NATO gets into bed with, you realise how NATO itself has undermined its own purported principles of democracy and humanitarianism and this should set off alarm bells in the minds of anyone who views NATO through rose tinted glasses.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 26, 2014, 01:46:02 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:07:11 am
I believe it's because the parliament is still the same one that voted the last Yanukovitch laws (by the way it's very strange that this "fascist coup"  did not dissolve the previous parliament at gunpoint instantly). That makes it very complicated to have a functioning country.

If my memory is correct, Serr had said that, before changing to an earlier constitution of Ukraine, most of the deputies that were at power under the wing of Yanukovitch mandate basically switched sides and mass joined other parliamentary groups, created new ones, etc. to keep their seat.

I applaud the dissolving if only to eject those obviously hypocrite and undeserving people.
But I also know that by that move, most of the still russian-friendly deputies will be removed and replaced with anti-russians which will vote yes to everything that Poroshenko and the war enthusiasts will propose.
Not good for a negotiation sortie of the crisis.

Quote from: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:07:11 am
Does anyone still think RT is not biased to the point of fabrication? Udar and Svoboda have less than one third of the seats of the majority in the current parliament, and suddenly it's a ruling coalition of Svoboda and Udar.

Yes, the "ruling" part is not true.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 26, 2014, 03:27:11 am
I get what you are saying Murmi, but I'm telling you Russia is way way worse than NATO.

It's simply not a comparison. You are Finnish if I recall, right? Well then it's not far away.. To feel better about themselves they blame the west for their miserable society, while in fact the SU rotted from within, before massive corruption set it. Anyone from that era can testify the system was absurd and didn't work very well. (Still, yes many had a better life than now or in the 90's). Putin is playing those strings in big russian hearts like a pro virtuoso.

I've been raised on propaganda from both sides, my father was editor of the soviet commie newspaper..  :P  but I didn't want to pick a side until I saw myself, and the bitter truth is that it simply sucks. It's a hard society where people don't give jack shit about each other. People are wearing at least 3 faces. Power=Money on an everyday in-your-face basis. I've never seen such huge shameless displays of wealth next to heart-breaking powerty. The country is WOUNDED for fuck sake. Their pride, their justice, their economy, their people. In this confusion Putin comes in and tells people "the story" straight. What they want to hear. Becomes what they want to see. Restores the pride they so dearly miss, letting all russians smell the only thing more powerful than the ruble; Power.

The commenters from the Baltics in here have a knee-jerk anti-russianness over them, and I don't blame them, although I do think they are a bit blinded and naive regarding the west. :D For them, NATO is an insurance. Without it, RF would conquer and bully them just like they did and do with Ukraine. That's why Ukraine has a hard on for NATO. It's not NATO that has a hard on for them.

It's nice to sit online and read articles and make an opinion. I do it too, but I do it on the basis of my learned lessons and conversations with my russian friends and actually visiting there invited by a state institution.

So please Murmi. Don't compare Russian and the west as equals like in some giant game of Risk. There is a difference, and it's all about that our system is simply vastly better than theirs. Think Financial crisis was bad? Go east and take a look. Financial crisis is peanuts, and nothing they can't print their way out of lol. Because there might be fundamentally wrong things about western economy, but other economies are fundamentally much much worse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on August 26, 2014, 03:51:35 am
Just a little point about Russia and NATO.

When the USSR dissolved Russia actually wanted to join NATO and do the whole Europe thing. Europe was on board and why wouldn't they be? Trade in a former enemy for a future friend. But the US was dead set against it and continued policies that isolated it geopolitically, namely by expanding NATO eastward even though there was an understanding that it wouldn't.

So yeah, Russia sees NATO as an enemy because NATO still sees Russia as an enemy. And the wonderful cycle of mutually assured destruction continues.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 06:07:24 am
Thats actually a fair point. Havent really looked into it. But I highly doubt entire Europe was on board. And that was 1954 or smthing? But thats basically during the time(or only few years after) Soviets were still basically slaughtering a shitton of its own people and kicking the native inhabitants of the counqured countries into Siberia and replaced them with people of russian heritage. No wounder they didnt want someone like SU in their ranks. And I highly doubt all the countries that SU owned could have gained independence by now if it had joined NATO. Cause some of those countries gained indepencence thanks to Western pressure, which they could have not done if they were in the league with the Soviets. Mybe in this case US did right? Russia wasnt denied the right to join NATO, Soviet Union was.

And dunno, havent really found any info that they tried to join it after the USSR. Even if they did im quessing its not only US that was against it but the enitre eastern European part of the alliance aswell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 09:20:52 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 01:01:21 am
(click to show/hide)
I have a new description for you, besides a "liar". ISOLATIONIST!

Where has NATO waged aggressive war in the past? Which country was accepted into NATO without its overwhelming internal eagerness coupled with existing NATO members approval? You are not comparing apples and oranges, you are comparing potatoes and whales. As MULTIPLE people already wrote to you and you STILL fail to hear - Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia would have russian "peace makers" (instead of keepers) in their respective countries in NO TIME, if it was not for NATO, which is basically the main stability guarantee in the region currently.

Also - sorry to dissapoint all the russian imperialists - but EVERY neighbor has a right to choose what he wants to do, your "interests" and "making of politics" should end at your doorsteps. Exporting it at a point of gun/tank is bullshit, which is what currently is happening in Ukraine. It makes my head hurt, reading how russia is a victim of NATO, which is doing what it is supposed to do (i.e. ensure defence). Now that russia has showed it has ZERO respect or willingness to follow their international treaties and agreements - russia IS making a potential enemy of itself, its NOT NATO's doing.

Me personally - I'm "naive" about west only because I saw what east looks like. I would rather be semi-puppet in west, than a poor-sheep in the east. You can bark all you want at the west and their corrupt/idiotic governments, but at least you CAN do that. In putlers russia - government tells you via the owned media at who you should bark.

In retrospect - what I would LIKE to see is US/EU funded russian speaking channels for alternate news, because currently guys like Tovi, Butan can form an "unbiased" oppinion about the situation, while the only-russian speaking russian population cannot and thus become sheep.

On topic:a question to our russian readers - how does putlers media spin this: http://uapress.info/ru/news/show/36341/ (for the non-readers - this supposedly is a list of 7 of the 10 captured russian soldiers in Ukraine coupled with their social network accounts and pictures for identification).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 26, 2014, 09:39:36 am
Murmi replaced Tovi's NWO with NATO. I still think Tovi was funnier to read tho. There was room for speculation if he was actually serious or not.
Murmi on the other hand... he actually seems to believe his own nonsense. Makes it more scary than funny :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 10:04:06 am
No! It is us who are wrong, for we have been brainwashed by nato.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 26, 2014, 10:09:26 am
Yep, guess it's that way around. My fault... damn me and my mainstream-media washed, emotionally opinion forming, useless brain :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 26, 2014, 10:27:18 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 10:04:06 am
No! It is us who are wrong, for we have been brainwashed by nato.
Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2014, 10:09:26 am
Yep, guess it's that way around. My fault... damn me and my mainstream-media washed, emotionally opinion forming, useless brain :(
it's not media's or nato's fault, just u are too old to take a new look at life  :P  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 10:43:26 am
Ye, obviously 5 year olds clearly have an age advantage on world order and politics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 10:51:53 am
http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2elyb9/russian_ministry_of_defense_soldiers_have_crossed/
Russia to the world: Borders are hard.
 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 26, 2014, 11:17:43 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 10:51:53 am
http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2elyb9/russian_ministry_of_defense_soldiers_have_crossed/
Russia to the world: Borders are hard.
 :lol:
English link:

http://en.itar-tass.com/ (http://en.itar-tass.com/)

Borders are hard when seen as something fluidic... flowing, not strict. :lol:

I love the comments on reddit tho:

"That's why you don't drink and border."
Quote
Oh, just like you accidentally cross into our (Finnish) border now and then with your fighter jets? I call bullshit onto this one.

 
You can't do that by accident, you can tell you are in Finland because your surroundings are clean and tidy.


Nonono, remember Crimea? That was Russian territory all along right? It was just Ukraine that had borrowed it, same goes with Finland, that territory belongs to Russia, and Bulgaria too, and Romania (no, wait, screw those guys) Hungary and Czechoslovakia aaaand... (Do we want east Germany? I've heard those guys are chocolate chip cookies, lets just settle for good ol' Poland instead) aaaand Poland.
:D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 11:29:47 am
Quote
Ah! Well this makes sense! Russian artillery got lost and accidentally shelled into Ukraine soldiers. Russian insurgents got lost and accidentally took over part of Ukraine. Then there is all that Russian money and military equipment constantly getting lost all the time. /s

Well I quess shit happens...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 26, 2014, 11:44:22 am
"They are just people, you know"
"Well, but it happens quite a lot lately."
"I guess they are just more people than the other people."

:lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 26, 2014, 12:32:35 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:49:58 am
Everybody here believes you are the most annoying person they have ever interacted with.
People don't like being proven wrong. But I'll have to do that again, I'm afraid: Murmillus just said you're the most annoying person. Ba-zing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 26, 2014, 12:41:56 pm
looked at some interrogations of prisoners. For me, the situation is not clear. Like dat "we saw a tank with Ukrainian flag, was very surprisedand, started to look for our column but it was not near " XD
wondering how it will end  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 01:44:29 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 26, 2014, 12:41:56 pm
looked at some interrogations of prisoners. For me, the situation is not clear. Like dat "we saw a tank with Ukrainian flag, was very surprisedand, started to look for our column but it was not near " XD
wondering how it will end  :P
Isn't that a bit similar to what most Ukrainians (I expect) are thinking now? Like "We thought russia was our friend and then turn around to find a knife in our back during our hardest hour?"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 26, 2014, 01:46:51 pm
Found a little side information while reading at article on dissolving parliament of Ukraine:

Quote
Two days after Ukrainian parliament changed its regulations regarding the required size of parliamentary groups, the Communist Party of Ukraine faction was dissolved on 24 July 2014.[2]

The General Prosecutor of Ukraine and the Security Service of Ukraine have both filed criminal charges against the Communist Party of Ukraine. The charges against the party include supporting the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation and providing support to separatists in Eastern Ukraine, both acts of treason against the Ukrainian state. The trial is set for August 2014, and if found guilty the Ukrainian Communist party is widely expected to become illegal.[3]

Noone ever talked about that?
It gives more credence to the accusation of a far-right political domination.
Only countries where far-right is prevalent do you see far-left being outlawed or banned.
In this case it is also probably because communism = soviet = russia for some  :rolleyes:



Quote from: Xant on August 25, 2014, 08:08:00 pm
Most of them would be. There's no way the separatists just "capture 500 armed vehicles." A mechanized infantry battalion would have, what, 50ish vehicles tops.

There is major battles ongoing, I wouldnt be surprised there is more than one battalion involved, so 50 vehicles seems the lowest of the low. More like a few hundreds, counting APC.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 01:47:20 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 26, 2014, 03:27:11 am
I get what you are saying Murmi, but I'm telling you Russia is way way worse than NATO.

It's simply not a comparison. You are Finnish if I recall, right? Well then it's not far away.. To feel better about themselves they blame the west for their miserable society, while in fact the SU rotted from within, before massive corruption set it. Anyone from that era can testify the system was absurd and didn't work very well. (Still, yes many had a better life than now or in the 90's). Putin is playing those strings in big russian hearts like a pro virtuoso.

I've been raised on propaganda from both sides, my father was editor of the soviet commie newspaper..  :P  but I didn't want to pick a side until I saw myself, and the bitter truth is that it simply sucks. It's a hard society where people don't give jack shit about each other. People are wearing at least 3 faces. Power=Money on an everyday in-your-face basis. I've never seen such huge shameless displays of wealth next to heart-breaking powerty. The country is WOUNDED for fuck sake. Their pride, their justice, their economy, their people. In this confusion Putin comes in and tells people "the story" straight. What they want to hear. Becomes what they want to see. Restores the pride they so dearly miss, letting all russians smell the only thing more powerful than the ruble; Power.

The commenters from the Baltics in here have a knee-jerk anti-russianness over them, and I don't blame them, although I do think they are a bit blinded and naive regarding the west. :D For them, NATO is an insurance. Without it, RF would conquer and bully them just like they did and do with Ukraine. That's why Ukraine has a hard on for NATO. It's not NATO that has a hard on for them.

It's nice to sit online and read articles and make an opinion. I do it too, but I do it on the basis of my learned lessons and conversations with my russian friends and actually visiting there invited by a state institution.

So please Murmi. Don't compare Russian and the west as equals like in some giant game of Risk. There is a difference, and it's all about that our system is simply vastly better than theirs. Think Financial crisis was bad? Go east and take a look. Financial crisis is peanuts, and nothing they can't print their way out of lol. Because there might be fundamentally wrong things about western economy, but other economies are fundamentally much much worse.

No, I'm British Thomek.

You have made fair points and have some insight that I lack, in regards to first hand experiences. However I believe your latter point that I've bolded at the bottom is complacent and somewhat naïve. I've never compared the West/Russia as equals, I've only called out the NATO states on their own blatant almost nonstop aggression this century, following on from the previous century, and pointed out the fact that these actions and open acts of power projection will justify an international resistance to NATO, its agenda and the states within it which would then potentially lead to another axis vs allies scenario setting the stage for another global conflict.

I made a point in response to kafein in another post that one size does not fit all, the Western model simply doesn't work in pretty much most of the non Western world, and the point stands when comparing the living standards of Russians, Ukrainians and West Europeans. There are many reasons why many Russians/Ukrainians are generally individually worse off than Westerners however this argument should not be used to excuse geopolitical interference that leads to conflict, destruction and bloodshed, no matter the actors or their reasons. Also I believe we should not be so complacent in the apparent superior living standards in the West, nations all over Europe and the U.K are year on year exposing their populace to ever further degrading living standards due to the rise of living costs and the freezing of private and public sector pay.. Things are not getting better in the West financially for the working class, of which I am a part of, they are getting worse, and who knows how bad things will become before they start to improve again, if they ever do that is. This is why I believe its complacent to state that our living standards are better than those in the East when in a decade or more this may no longer be true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 26, 2014, 01:59:08 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 26, 2014, 01:46:51 pm

There is major battles ongoing, I wouldnt be surprised there is more than one battalion involved, so 50 vehicles seems the lowest of the low. More like a few hundreds, counting APC.
That isn't the point. A mechanized infantry battalion has 50 vehicles TOPS... but how are you going to capture those intact? You're not. If you win a battle, maybe you'll get a few. But that means completely wiping out that battalion+supporting elements. And that's just a few still-working vehicles you'll have to show for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 26, 2014, 02:00:57 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 26, 2014, 01:59:08 pm
That isn't the point. A mechanized infantry battalion has 50 vehicles TOPS... but how are you going to capture those intact? You're not. If you win a battle, maybe you'll get a few. But that means completely wiping out that battalion+supporting elements. And that's just a few still-working vehicles you'll have to show for it.
just as an example. Side A was surrounded by  B. Party A wants to live, and offer to side B all their weapons in exchange for passage to the territory of "neutral state of russia XD" (an allusion to the surrendered 500 + military, do you think how much they have left behind)
Quote from: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 01:44:29 pm
Isn't that a bit similar to what most Ukrainians (I expect) are thinking now? Like "We thought russia was our friend and then turn around to find a knife in our back during our hardest hour?"  :rolleyes:
for the Ukrainians it was no surprise, Muscovites is their enemies for the past 20 million years, even in those days, after not successful mammoths hunt, great ukry said "кляті москалі"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 26, 2014, 02:10:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 26, 2014, 01:46:51 pm
In this case it is also probably because communism = soviet = russia for some  :rolleyes:

What most westerners fail to realize is that Putin's Russia isn't Red Army Strikes Back. After the fall of communism, in every single country affected by it, there has been nationalism on the rise which was never part of communism (nationalism was heavily suppressed by communist regimes). Putin isn't communist, he is tsarist Russia admirer, just like most Russians in this thread. They belong to the White Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_movement).

Also Soviet related: regimes never just implode on their own. There is always an outside force that acts on a system. In case of commie regimes that outside force were descendants of people who fled the country when Bolsheviks/Communists won.

*post continued in meanwhile in iraq*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 26, 2014, 02:12:23 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 26, 2014, 01:59:08 pm
That isn't the point. A mechanized infantry battalion has 50 vehicles TOPS... but how are you going to capture those intact? You're not. If you win a battle, maybe you'll get a few. But that means completely wiping out that battalion+supporting elements. And that's just a few still-working vehicles you'll have to show for it.

As Vovka said, mostly surrenders.
There is many parameters which supports this: report of very low organisation of Ukrainian army, especially national guards and other fresly conscripted units, parts of them surrounded in some regions (especially the caudron one), and which dont all hate their russian-friendly Ukrainian countrymen with a passion and/or arent the fanatical nationalist who want to die fighting  :P


Even then, the 500 number is probably exagerated.
When a nation at war give reports they always do the following: say casualty is high on enemy, low on friend/own.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 26, 2014, 02:15:11 pm
Hello, the
Quote from: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 12:42:58 am
forum cretin of the year
is here again.

I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:
(click to show/hide)
Isn’t that obvious enough? :rolleyes:

I am still missing proof for the attacked platoon of refugees, which allegedly got attacked by the separatists.
I am still missing proof for the Russian military vehicles which allegedly entered Ukrainian territory at night and allegedly through a fence.
I am still missing proof for the Russian artillery stationed in the Ukraine.
I am still missing proof for the new military vehicles which allegedly entered the Ukraine again.
I am still missing proof that Russia shot down MH17. If you still remember what MH17 is… Now Putin requests clarification since the interest in clarification of what really happened is shrinking. Mass media aren’t saying anything about it anymore. We should not forget the tragedy concerning MH17, and we should not forget the victims of the plane who were abused just to produce more agitation against Russia.
Do mass media think we are stupid??? If they are all so sure that it was Russia, then where is the proof?

The NATO (USA) is far more aggressive in the world than Putin… The US-government needs oil, gas and money to be able to pay their debts (highest in the world). So they stir up hatred between groups in a country they will profit from, and when the tensions are high enough, the US will “bring democracy” to the country. Well, in Saudi-Arabia there is also no democracy, but that is tradition then… The biggest plan is now to increase tensions between Europe and Russia, so Europe won’t buy Russian gas but American gas, with the help of fracking, TTIP, TISA and so on…

I repeat what I wrote before: in 1990 the NATO promised Russia to not further expand to the east:
(click to show/hide)

Btw: can you remember the massive sanctions on the US, when they shot down an iranian plane in 1988? The president said something like "in a war it's possible for such a thing to happen"... I can't either.

The USA is dividing the world massively and the media are supporting it indirectly...


But more and more people are going on the streets to campaign for a new medial era of free press, they mainly campaign for PEACE.  They are getting information from alternative media, which are either ignored or called “right-wing extremists”. At least in Germany. They mainly concentrate on “Monday Demonstrations” as they are called here.
Demonstrations mainly for peace. Do you know how these demonstrations are portrayed in the mass media? “Right-wing extremists”, “conspiracy theorists”, “liars” and so on. Saying your opinion on these demonstrations can bring you in real problems. Some speakers received death threats because they don’t stop criticizing the system and the criminal intrigues of the world politics. I am wondering if the enemies of these peace demonstrations want war instead…
So more and more people wake up and request information they don't get in the mainstream media. Mass media manipulation is still there, but not for much longer...
(click to show/hide)





Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 01:47:20 pm
Also I believe we should not be so complacent in the apparent superior living standards in the West, nations all over Europe and the U.K are year on year exposing their populace to ever further degrading living standards due to the rise of living costs and the freezing of private and public sector pay.. Things are not getting better in the West financially for the working class, of which I am a part of, they are getting worse, and who knows how bad things will become before they start to improve again, if they ever do that is. This is why I believe its complacent to state that our living standards are better than those in the East when in a decade or more this may no longer be true.
You are completely right. At some point there will be a financial crash which will be the worst ever. Maybe much blood will be shed. The more people are uninformed, the more surprising will the crash be, the more possible will blood shedding be and therefore more blood will be shed… After that, a complete restart will very likely happen. And if we are unlucky, the same protagonists like now will again get power.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 26, 2014, 02:21:22 pm
I feel so moderate now that there is Anuran and Murmillus Prime debating  :D  my right place!

Anyway guys, no need to use expletives to prove your points.
We can all disagree in peace and try to convince each other.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 02:23:55 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 26, 2014, 02:15:11 pm
Hello, the  is here again.

I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:
(click to show/hide)
Isn’t that obvious enough? :rolleyes:

I am still missing proof for the attacked platoon of refugees, which allegedly got attacked by the separatists.
I am still missing proof for the Russian military vehicles which allegedly entered Ukrainian territory at night and allegedly through a fence.
I am still missing proof for the Russian artillery stationed in the Ukraine.
I am still missing proof for the new military vehicles which allegedly entered the Ukraine again.
I am still missing proof that Russia shot down MH17. If you still remember what MH17 is… Now Putin requests clarification since the interest in clarification of what really happened is shrinking. Mass media aren’t saying anything about it anymore. We should not forget the tragedy concerning MH17, and we should not forget the victims of the plane who were abused just to produce more agitation against Russia.
Do mass media think we are stupid??? If they are all so sure that it was Russia, then where is the proof?

The NATO (USA) is far more aggressive in the world than Putin… The US-government needs oil, gas and money to be able to pay their debts (highest in the world). So they stir up hatred between groups in a country they will profit from, and when the tensions are high enough, the US will “bring democracy” to the country. Well, in Saudi-Arabia there is also no democracy, but that is tradition then… The biggest plan is now to increase tensions between Europe and Russia, so Europe won’t buy Russian gas but American gas, with the help of fracking, TTIP, TISA and so on…

I repeat what I wrote before: in 1990 the NATO promised Russia to not further expand to the east:
(click to show/hide)

Btw: can you remember the massive sanctions on the US, when they shot down an iranian plane in 1988? The president said something like "in a war it's possible for such a thing to happen"... I can't either.

The USA is dividing the world massively and the media are supporting it indirectly...


But more and more people are going on the streets to campaign for a new medial era of free press, they mainly campaign for PEACE.  They are getting information from alternative media, which are either ignored or called “right-wing extremists”. At least in Germany. They mainly concentrate on “Monday Demonstrations” as they are called here.
Demonstrations mainly for peace. Do you know how these demonstrations are portrayed in the mass media? “Right-wing extremists”, “conspiracy theorists”, “liars” and so on. Saying your opinion on these demonstrations can bring you in real problems. Some speakers received death threats because they don’t stop criticizing the system and the criminal intrigues of the world politics. I am wondering if the enemies of these peace demonstrations want war instead…
So more and more people wake up and request information they don't get in the mainstream media. Mass media manipulation is still there, but not for much longer...
(click to show/hide)




You are completely right. At some point there will be a financial crash which will be the worst ever. Maybe much blood will be shed. The more people are uninformed, the more surprising will the crash be, the more possible will blood shedding be and therefore more blood will be shed… After that, a complete restart will very likely happen. And if we are unlucky, the same protagonists like now will again get power.

NATO haven't been bombing sovereign states, or surrounding geopolitical rivals with military bases, they're whiter than white, well that's what I determine from the attitudes of Molly, Kaffein and now Tibe... Since we only speak bollocks right so that must mean what we say isn't true and is all made up..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 26, 2014, 03:06:16 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 26, 2014, 02:21:22 pm
I feel so moderate now that there is Anuran and Murmillus Prime debating  :D  my right place!

Anyway guys, no need to use expletives to prove your points.
We can all disagree in peace and try to convince each other.
FUCK YOU
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 26, 2014, 03:14:20 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 26, 2014, 03:06:16 pm
FUCK YOU

UR MOM
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 26, 2014, 03:18:13 pm
Putin says Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine, crossed the border, mainly by accident.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 26, 2014, 03:21:59 pm
I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure NATO promised USSR not to expand eastwards. (not Russia) And btw, it's just as much the eastern countries begging to join EU and NATO, not the other way around. There was plenty of resistance in EU towards eastern countries joining for example.

@Anuran. Omg how thick are you. You think a bunch of rebels are that much better organized than the main Ukrainian army without massive support from Russia? Where they get fuel, ammo, tanks and apc's from? How do they replace them? Are they superheroes filled with massive brains and bravure? You forgot their leader was a Russian ex-KGB officer? What about Russian passports showing up? What about Russians did exactly the same in Crimea? Denied involvment of troops, then Putin himself admitted it..

Proof, what proof do you want? there's tons of indices everywhere. You want to see a tank with Russian flag on it? Licence plates? Oh, right. The APC's and tanks doesn't have licence plates. Please use your brain, although I know it must hurt to face the facts.

here from today, russian paratroopers captured: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213)

@Murmi
I do understand Putin here. He doesn't want the well integrated economy of Ukraine to join EU. Which will are not as easily manipulated to his will, or as easy to make deals with. He wants to teach Ukraine a lesson, and at the same time steal the best pieces of the country, as well as secure a good landbridge to Crimea. He knows the rest of Ukraine is lost, never to return.

About the global situation, perhaps you are right. Although I think it has as much to do with ignorant and retarded american presidents and their military industrial complex. They need a war now and then.. :P  I think trying to put some kind of global strategy and purpose to many of their actions quickly becomes absurd conspiratorical bullshit. Afghanistan and Iraq, you don't have to go much further than Bush and his friends to explain it. US didn't gain jack shit from that mess. Why were they so keen on bombing Serbia? Who the hell knows? Because they had unused bombs laying around, their army could need some training, because Milosevic was a bad guy, because Clinton needed a distraction from his sex scandal? What on earth did they get from that one? A new muslim crime state in Europe?

Throughout history, wars have been fought not because of some grand strategy or plan for the people of a country, but because leaders needed distractions and support, or saw a possibility.Leaders simply reacted to the challenges right in front of them.  They don't give shit about the president or leader that comes AFTER them.

Anyway, this is what I hate about people who tries to understand the world by making all the pieces fit neatly, whether right wing, left wing, conspiracy theorist. Leaders, aka human beings, are only able to plan that far ahead, and drawing big lines bigger than that is rather futile. The reason NATO countries has been involved in so many conflicts after fall of SU is simple that they had the possibilities, because there was no counterweight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 26, 2014, 03:22:36 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 02:23:55 pm
Since we only speak bollocks right so that must mean what we say isn't true and is all made up..
Wow, finally some insight. Phew, I already thought you actually believed all that shite :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 26, 2014, 03:37:26 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 26, 2014, 03:21:59 pm
I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure NATO promised USSR not to expand eastwards. (not Russia) And btw, it's just as much the eastern countries begging to join EU and NATO, not the other way around. There was plenty of resistance in EU towards eastern countries joining for example.


As much as I respect countries choosing their own alliances for their own sovereign reasons; you gotta admit that its a piss poor excuse  :rolleyes:

Its one of those things most of the westerners dont get: as soon as USSR broke down, buzzards followed and took everything they could from the beast of the east while it was at its weakest, and used bad semantics such as "promised to USSR, not to Russia" to basically do whatever they pleased. A bit like what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

The cold war I is over, but the hate is still strong and nothing seems to stop cold war II from starting, *if everyone keep being autistic*.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 03:59:27 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 02:23:55 pm
NATO haven't been bombing sovereign states, or surrounding geopolitical rivals with military bases, they're whiter than white, well that's what I determine from the attitudes of Molly, Kaffein and now Tibe... Since we only speak bollocks right so that must mean what we say isn't true and is all made up..
When did I ever state that NATO was the force of pure good? Ive been nonstop shittalking Russia, thats basically it.

Quote from: Anuran on August 26, 2014, 02:15:11 pm
Hello, the  is here again.

I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:
(click to show/hide)
I am still missing proof that Russia shot down MH17. If you still remember what MH17 is… Now Putin requests clarification since the interest in clarification of what really happened is shrinking. Mass media aren’t saying anything about it anymore. We should not forget the tragedy concerning MH17, and we should not forget the victims of the plane who were abused just to produce more agitation against Russia.
Do mass media think we are stupid??? If they are all so sure that it was Russia, then where is the proof?

The NATO (USA) is far more aggressive in the world than Putin… The US-government needs oil, gas and money to be able to pay their debts (highest in the world). So they stir up hatred between groups in a country they will profit from, and when the tensions are high enough, the US will “bring democracy” to the country. Well, in Saudi-Arabia there is also no democracy, but that is tradition then… The biggest plan is now to increase tensions between Europe and Russia, so Europe won’t buy Russian gas but American gas, with the help of fracking, TTIP, TISA and so on…
That is such nonsensical assburgers. We can basically stamp USA on everything that ever happened and claim it was "due to their enourmous dept". What kind of bullshit logic to you think the world works on son? Myyybe it is true. But you have to admit, you sound like a utter moron when you say it out loud. "USA intervened in Ukraine to start WW3 in russia cause they are in a gigantic dept, dept in which they basically own the majorty to themselves". Seriuslly. Say that shit out loud somewhere and noone will ever take you seriusly again. Thats dumb assuptions and connections made on Illuminati level as in:" We cant prove shit, but I can clearly connect the dots since im such a visionary and others are blind." One thing that conspiracyidiots never seem to figure out that some unpopular ideas are unpopular for a reason. I have sillyass assumptions like this myself, but I keep it to myself like majority of people. Cause this is still basically shooting in the dark. Hardly factual at all. Everyone can connect the dots mate, but for every person the shape is different.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 04:14:53 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 26, 2014, 12:32:35 pm
People don't like being proven wrong. But I'll have to do that again, I'm afraid: Murmillus just said you're the most annoying person. Ba-zing.

Murmillus did not say that I'm the most annoying person.

Quote from: Butan on August 26, 2014, 01:46:51 pm
Found a little side information while reading at article on dissolving parliament of Ukraine:

Noone ever talked about that?
It gives more credence to the accusation of a far-right political domination.
Only countries where far-right is prevalent do you see far-left being outlawed or banned.
In this case it is also probably because communism = soviet = russia for some  :rolleyes:

History shows that "communist" parties have rarely been acting based on ideology (as a French guy you should know that), so banning "the communist party" is not really banning far-left. I'm pretty sure there are communist parties not affiliated to Russia in Ukraine. Most likely the structure of the party was actually used to support the Crimean annexation and the eastern rebels, which kind of justifies this outcome.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 26, 2014, 01:47:20 pm
No, I'm British Thomek.

You have made fair points and have some insight that I lack, in regards to first hand experiences. However I believe your latter point that I've bolded at the bottom is complacent and somewhat naïve. I've never compared the West/Russia as equals, I've only called out the NATO states on their own blatant almost nonstop aggression this century, following on from the previous century, and pointed out the fact that these actions and open acts of power projection will justify an international resistance to NATO, its agenda and the states within it which would then potentially lead to another axis vs allies scenario setting the stage for another global conflict.

I made a point in response to kafein in another post that one size does not fit all, the Western model simply doesn't work in pretty much most of the non Western world, and the point stands when comparing the living standards of Russians, Ukrainians and West Europeans. There are many reasons why many Russians/Ukrainians are generally individually worse off than Westerners however this argument should not be used to excuse geopolitical interference that leads to conflict, destruction and bloodshed, no matter the actors or their reasons. Also I believe we should not be so complacent in the apparent superior living standards in the West, nations all over Europe and the U.K are year on year exposing their populace to ever further degrading living standards due to the rise of living costs and the freezing of private and public sector pay.. Things are not getting better in the West financially for the working class, of which I am a part of, they are getting worse, and who knows how bad things will become before they start to improve again, if they ever do that is. This is why I believe its complacent to state that our living standards are better than those in the East when in a decade or more this may no longer be true.

So what you are saying is that third/second world countries without democratic governments (that is, excluding countries such as Brazil and India which for some reason are on good terms with NATO) deserve their autocrats, because the people who live there are not western? First, that's discriminatory and second, political refugees (that is, people with a first hand experience of the regime) tend to argue otherwise.

The fact of the matter is that the leaders of democratic countries do whatever they need to do to get reelected, which includes fighting regimes overseas that the public does not like for whatever reason. Those reasons including oppression (e.g. Lybia), aggression (Koweit war) and genocide (Serbia), among others. People living in NATO states didn't really give a fuck about Russia or Ukraine as long as one wasn't forcefully annexing a part of the other.

Quote from: Anuran on August 26, 2014, 02:15:11 pm
I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:
(click to show/hide)
Isn’t that obvious enough? :rolleyes:

I repeat what I wrote before: in 1990 the NATO promised Russia to not further expand to the east:
(click to show/hide)


I suggest you (and all other readers of this thread) try to inform yourself on the actual treaty, not the RTNews version of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe
Also this page should make you learn a few other things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

So actually no, NATO never agreed to refuse membership to eastern states, even including Russia. It's also Putin who put a moratorium on the treaty in 2007 and used it to gather much larger forces than allowed by the treaty in Russia's border regions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 04:39:09 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 26, 2014, 03:37:26 pm

As much as I respect countries choosing their own alliances for their own sovereign reasons; you gotta admit that its a piss poor excuse  :rolleyes:

Its one of those things most of the westerners dont get: as soon as USSR broke down, buzzards followed and took everything they could from the beast of the east while it was at its weakest, and used bad semantics such as "promised to USSR, not to Russia" to basically do whatever they pleased. A bit like what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

The cold war I is over, but the hate is still strong and nothing seems to stop cold war II from starting, *if everyone keep being autistic*.
Why is that a piss poor excuse? Because you feel like that?

Why should a sovereign state be limited by what former USSR wants or does not want?

Wait... you do not understand, why there is hate towards putlers russia when its acting like a child who lost a toy, which was never his, but instead another child? Former colonies of France ask for their military intervention to help curb armed thugs roving in their territories and thats fine. Former russian collonies have roving russian armed forces in them, even though they ask NOT to come.

Ukraine had a pupped president, which it ousted. Poor Ukraine having it.
Ukraine had part of it annexed in a sham referendum. Poor Ukraine.
Ukraine has parts of it being ravaged by a civil war, which was caused by putlers propaganda machine, direct military support for the separatists and now - direct military interventions (even if small scale).

And the victim is... SHOCKING NEWS: RUSSIA, its interests must be protected.

Let me be very clear. FUCK. THIS. SHIT. Unfortunately until russia gets put in place by Ukrainian blood and internal crisis hopefully caused by sanctions - its not going to learn. There was an agreement, which kind of settled things between russia and Ukraine once. It was called Budapest Memorandum. Russia wiped its barrels with copies of the said agreement, and with few which were written afterwards too. Yet you still insist, that there is a new agreement, to which russia will somehow magically abide... Well... I don't believe there is one, especially if interests and wishes of Ukraine are to be taken into account instead of being ignored as russia wishes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 26, 2014, 06:32:39 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 03:59:27 pm
That is such nonsensical assburgers. We can basically stamp USA on everything that ever happened and claim it was "due to their enourmous dept". What kind of bullshit logic to you think the world works on son? Myyybe it is true. But you have to admit, you sound like a utter moron when you say it out loud. "USA intervened in Ukraine to start WW3 in russia cause they are in a gigantic dept, dept in which they basically own the majorty to themselves". Seriuslly. Say that shit out loud somewhere and noone will ever take you seriusly again. Thats dumb assuptions and connections made on Illuminati level as in:" We cant prove shit, but I can clearly connect the dots since im such a visionary and others are blind." One thing that conspiracyidiots never seem to figure out that some unpopular ideas are unpopular for a reason. I have sillyass assumptions like this myself, but I keep it to myself like majority of people. Cause this is still basically shooting in the dark. Hardly factual at all. Everyone can connect the dots mate, but for every person the shape is different.

"nonsensical assburgers", "bullshit logic", "utter moron", "Say that shit out loud somewhere and noone will ever take you seriusly again", "dumb assum[p]tions", "conspiracyidiot"

This just sounds like an "utter moron" to you (and some others)! You know what? If you just want to insult me, then shut it. Sorry to be so rude, but I hate “discussing” with someone who just insults me because I have a completely different view on things. Is it forbidden to question things now?? If you insult me, then you have to be able to correct me easily! My opinion can be called a conspiracy theory, yes. But the term “conspiracy theorist” is no insult at all.
(click to show/hide)

I don’t think my logic is “bullshit logic” or “dumb”, I think, it’s just unusual for you.  :wink: (Just take a look on the short definition, if you haven’t yet)
I know that I am not taken seriously, but just because it is that different, I noticed that already.
When I entered this discussion, I honestly never expected to have to defend my opinion that much…

@Kafein
Thanks for posting these links. But there are still difficulties. In the English wiki entry it says the following:
Quote
Mikhail Gorbachev reportedly agreed to allow German reunification within NATO after being promised that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east."[3]

In the german wiki entry there is an interview named as a source. An interview between a journalist and Gorbachev to the time of the german reunification. I can quote the relevant part:

Quote
Journalist: Did Germany keep its word?

Gorbachev: Yes, the Germans fulfilled all arrangements very precisely and have handled our troops very respectfully. But there is still an outstanding score. [kind of a problem]

Journalist: What do you mean?

Gorbachev: Kohl, the foreign minister of the US James Baker and others assured me that the NATO won't move one inch to the east. The Americans broke their word and the Germans were indifferent. Maybe they even rubbed their hands for how well they pulled the Russians over the barrel. What was it good for? Only, that the Russians can't trust western promises anymore.

Source: http://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html


@All
I spoke about “Monday Demonstrations” in my last post. Here you can see two (English subtitles):

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 26, 2014, 07:09:15 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 26, 2014, 03:37:26 pm
Its one of those things most of the westerners dont get: as soon as USSR broke down, buzzards followed and took everything they could from the beast of the east while it was at its weakest.

This is true. It is also true that Russians approved of the disastrous shock doctrine. But it is also just a small small part of the story. Russians themselves easily managed to steal most of value from their own country. And before that the SU had rotted on its own feet. The ship was already sinking when it fell. Not even CIA had a clue it would happen. Just go there, and it will be clear as day why it happened. It's still corrupt and inefficient like hell. And I'm one of those who thinks the oligarchs should have their assets taken back to the state. All of them, including Khodorkovsky! (I probably sound like a Babusjka!)

.....

In today's Russia such excuses serve no other purpose but to excuse those in power for the mess they are in. Russia needs real law and order, a strong but aggressively anti-corruption president, and free media. Russia is not Iraq or Afghanistan, they have an intelligent population that can read and write. It's just that it's not beneficial at all to voice your opinion. IMO they are ready for a gradual transition to a real democracy. Though it will be painful for many many people who have abused their power..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 26, 2014, 07:14:39 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 26, 2014, 06:32:39 pm
@Kafein
Thanks for posting these links. But there are still difficulties. In the English wiki entry it says the following:
Quote
Mikhail Gorbachev reportedly agreed to allow German reunification within NATO after being promised that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east."[3]

Oh that's so cute. You intentionally misquote in order to obtain a completely warped view of the situation. Here's what follows immediately after that sentence:

Quote
However Mark Kramer, director of the Cold War Studies Project at Harvard University, has explained in detail that that “pledge” is a myth, that the agreement was limited strictly to troop deployments inside a possible unified Germany, and points out that NATO enlargement to the east, beyond Germany had not even been imagined at the time.

You should send your résumé to RT.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 26, 2014, 08:00:41 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 26, 2014, 07:09:15 pm
In today's Russia such excuses serve no other purpose but to excuse those in power for the mess they are in.

Touché! But except if we see an honest to goodness benevolent ruler who are tolerant and accepting to their worst enemies, Russian leaders will always be led to use such "excuses" to boost their own domestic policies, such is the tribute left from the past. And they will not be completely lying even.

History is a great tool to both analyze the present and the future, or to misinterpret it to your own benefit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 08:02:36 pm
A report about a column appearing from nowhere:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/us-ukraine-crisis-novoazovsk-exclusive-idUSKBN0GQ19U20140826

I keep asking myself - what other country says "we do not support guys who are fighting a war in a neighboring country", but keeps missing the damn IFV and tanks crossing the border into the said region all the time... I... am... at a loss.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 26, 2014, 08:35:00 pm
Quote from: Anuran on August 26, 2014, 06:32:39 pm
I don’t think my logic is “bullshit logic” or “dumb”, I think, it’s just unusual for you.  :wink: (Just take a look on the short definition, if you haven’t yet)
I know that I am not taken seriously, but just because it is that different, I noticed that already.
When I entered this discussion, I honestly never expected to have to defend my opinion that much…
You are not taken seriously because your logic is farfetched. It lacks any actual backing, eventhou you think you have the evidence. I can assume a lot of things too. I can put many evidence together aswell and make a very plausible story, might it be about NATO, USA, Russia, whatever, but I dont consider my own stupid farfetched assumptions as somekind of actual leverage in a discussion. Cause its not. Its kinda like these:
(click to show/hide)
Your logic atm is basically same is if I said that somehow China is the real puppetmaster behind all of it and is planning to draw NATO to attack Russia so China can attack Siberia at Russias weak state and claim itself more land, which is desperately needs. Sounds silly yet somewhat plausible doesnt it? Would you say something like that in a serius conversation? Think I dont have enough evidence? Give me some time and I could even find enough cases to make it convincing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 26, 2014, 08:38:48 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 26, 2014, 02:00:57 pm
just as an example. Side A was surrounded by  B. Party A wants to live, and offer to side B all their weapons in exchange for passage to the territory of "neutral state of russia XD" (an allusion to the surrendered 500 + military, do you think how much they have left behind)
I think for a couple of days, we will know the answer
https://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdnr-news.com%2Fdnr%2F2735-premer-ministr-dnr-predlozhil-okruzhennym-ukrainskim-silovikam-sdatsya.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 26, 2014, 11:42:23 pm
As Kiev forces retreat toward Mariupol and suffer heavy losses in the north, a cease fire seems possible.

Ukraine army cannot attack anymore but rebels are not strong enough to counter strike. So the front is frozen for weeks now. Russians just need to wait the collapse of the country when winter will come.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 27, 2014, 12:34:27 am
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/nato-east-european-bases-counter-russian-threat

Well that's surely not going to stir the hornets nest is it?

Talking about agendas and plans Thomek, I think you under-estimate the scheming that goes on behind closed doors, in meetings such as Bilderberg and others. Yes I understand that in many circumstances politicians have appeared to act and react to situations for partisan political reasons or to save their own asses, but the majority of political issues in the West and the political focuses by the media are only skin deep as far as politics go, and in fact have no real impact on the overall governments strategy worldwide which is where the political decisions have a meaningful impact on the future of the world.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that at least in the U.K, and in France and probably most European states that no matter which one of the two electable parties are elected, they both appear to be as reckless as each other when it comes to geopolitics and military adventurism. On the surface it appears military interventions in the Middle-East by the West have failed, that's if you view the objective of the interventions as humanitarian or for democracy the purported objectives stated by our governments and militaries.. But all too often we find that our politicians say they want one thing and behind closed doors actually want another, and I don't believe purported geopolitical/militaristic objectives are any different in this respect. Sometimes I shake my head in disbelief that peoples whom eagerly and naively  support their governments geopolitical strategy oppose their politicians at home for their endless lying and failure to fulfil their promises. People really are prepared to believe the liars who rule their nation when the liars who rule their nation tell them how the rest of the world works but can't trust the very same people to run their own nation?

Some independent experts state that the Wests real agenda in the Middle-East is to simply turn it into a hotbed of chaos, bloodshed and destruction, if this is their true agenda then they have done very well to fulfil it so far. Numerous times, American, British, Zionist supporting governments have had their politicians in various speeches speak of a new world order, and one can only bring about new world order by first removing the old world order, and what better way then descending whole regions into chaos and in-fighting, playing off sides against each other.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 27, 2014, 04:00:47 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 08:02:36 pm
keeps missing the damn IFV and tanks crossing the border into the said region all the time... I... am... at a loss.

At first I read: why does Ukraine army always spot russian soldiers everywhere but keep missing them when doing surveillance/shooting :mrgreen:

The only way Ukraine will stop spotting Russian soldiers is for a buffer country to be created between Ukraine and Russia. This way no more chances!

Quote from: Kuujis on August 26, 2014, 04:39:09 pm
There was an agreement, which kind of settled things between russia and Ukraine once. It was called Budapest Memorandum.


Russia signed such agreement with stable russian-friendly pre-civil war Ukraine, not with war ridden unstable anti-russian Ukraine!..


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 27, 2014, 07:59:39 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 27, 2014, 12:34:27 am
Some independent experts state that the Wests real agenda in the Middle-East is to simply turn it into a hotbed of chaos, bloodshed and destruction, if this is their true agenda then they have done very well to fulfil it so far. Numerous times, American, British, Zionist supporting governments have had their politicians in various speeches speak of a new world order, and one can only bring about new world order by first removing the old world order, and what better way then descending whole regions into chaos and in-fighting, playing off sides against each other.

I dont really see it that way. Considering that the actual triggermen doing the chaos there are basically unreasonable zealot nutjobs. Cause the countries get along with eachother quite well. Playing off sides against each other is definately not what the West does in the middle east. Cause one side is just....well something of a force that negotiates with noone and pretty much hates everything. Its kinda like just trying to talk with zergs. The only thing the US could be blamed for is handicapping the middle eastern armies to make them more vulnerable for these nutjobs. And frankly personally, too me atleast, it appears that US itself is quite suprised of the results. Cause nobody could have really seen it coming. The extent that ISIS and others a like expand basically through continents, like Africa and Middle-East and the brutality of it all cant possibly be some part of a bigger plan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 08:45:32 am
Quote from: Butan on August 27, 2014, 04:00:47 am
At first I read: why does Ukraine army always spot russian soldiers everywhere but keep missing them when doing surveillance/shooting :mrgreen:

The only way Ukraine will stop spotting Russian soldiers is for a buffer country to be created between Ukraine and Russia. This way no more chances!
I'm not sure if this is irony, because it's coming from you...

Quote from: Butan on August 27, 2014, 04:00:47 am
Russia signed such agreement with stable russian-friendly pre-civil war Ukraine, not with war ridden unstable anti-russian Ukraine!..
(click to show/hide)
Let me double check that:
Lets assume an agreement between two parties, say... a house loan? One party is Bear Bank, other is Ukraine Rusofilovich. They got an agreement and were living kinda okay-ish. Then Ukraine Rusofilovich fell in love with West Natovich and married him. Does that void the agreement they had? Or akin to all the "only in russia" jokes, this would void the agreement because "only in France marriage voids bank loan agreements"?  :rolleyes:

Why a change in the minds of Ukraine citizens is a cause for russia to disregard its own commitments?

Meanwhile in Ukraine - POLITE GREEN MEN are back!
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0GQ1X520140826?irpc=932
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 27, 2014, 09:41:18 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 08:45:32 am
(click to show/hide)
"strangers with Russian accents"  :lol: chechens?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 09:43:57 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 27, 2014, 09:41:18 am
"strangers with Russian accents"  :lol: chechens?  :P
I like the details of IFV and tank markings more. And especially the fact, that they coincide with the ones that the "patrooling and lost" 10 had (the ones who were captured some days ago).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 27, 2014, 09:53:54 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 09:43:57 am
I like the details of IFV and tank markings more. And especially the fact, that they coincide with the ones that the "patrooling and lost" 10 had (the ones who were captured some days ago).
btw i tried found atleast photo dat "lost apc with white circle" but didn't found it mb u have dat photo fact XD?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 10:00:41 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 27, 2014, 09:53:54 am
btw i tried found atleast photo dat "lost apc with white circle" but didn't found it mb u have dat photo fact XD?
I'm afraid not, I just relied on the guys on the ground with a good reputation for reporting, but I made a critical error (OH NOES!) - its was not the IFV's, it was the soldiers:
The men had white arm bands, the same identifying mark that was worn by 10 men captured a few kilometers (miles) away by Ukrainian forces and who, in video released on Tuesday, said they were Russian paratroopers.

Good to know there are more and more "lost" military personell in Ukraine coming from russia.

Edit: and a nice read to boot http://www.interpretermag.com/moscow-propaganda-pushed-federalization-of-ukraine-and-then-stopped-media-survey-finds/ .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 27, 2014, 10:29:59 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 10:00:41 am
I'm afraid not, I just relied on the guys on the ground with a good reputation for reporting, but I made a critical error (OH NOES!) - its was not the IFV's, it was the soldiers:
The men had white arm bands, the same identifying mark that was worn by 10 men captured a few kilometers (miles) away by Ukrainian forces and who, in video released on Tuesday, said they were Russian paratroopers.

Good to know there are more and more "lost" military personell in Ukraine coming from russia.
lol wut white arm bands?! )) kk "The two witnesses who saw paratroopers with white bands" is compelling evidence (

it might be interesting if the article came out at least a day before the video captured. But now after video every grandma will see in the bush green man with a white bandage, and on each bus will be a white circle )) I'm not trying to deny that in fact may be "little green men", but the article itself is pathetic, just speculation facts of the interrogation video.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 27, 2014, 10:42:29 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 27, 2014, 07:59:39 am
I dont really see it that way. Considering that the actual triggermen doing the chaos there are basically unreasonable zealot nutjobs. Cause the countries get along with eachother quite well. Playing off sides against each other is definately not what the West does in the middle east. Cause one side is just....well something of a force that negotiates with noone and pretty much hates everything. Its kinda like just trying to talk with zergs. The only thing the US could be blamed for is handicapping the middle eastern armies to make them more vulnerable for these nutjobs. And frankly personally, too me atleast, it appears that US itself is quite suprised of the results. Cause nobody could have really seen it coming. The extent that ISIS and others a like expand basically through continents, like Africa and Middle-East and the brutality of it all cant possibly be some part of a bigger plan.

Well the way I see it.. Saddam Hussain overthrown, secular government. Muammar Gaddafi overthrown, secular government. Afghanistan tribesmen and religious zealots with the assistance of the U.S overthrew the Russian installed government in Afghanistan, another secular government. In all three nations in their place now resides destroyed states turned into jihadist strongholds overrun by sunni jihadis. I've seen liveleak videos of the Syrian army riffling through the belongings of the dead rebels, finding wallets stuffed with Saudi cash. Saudi-Arabia an autocratic despotic sectarian kingdom ally of the west home of the Bin Laden family, sold advanced weaponry by the West, it then provides to the jihadis fighting all over the Middle-East. It's no coincidence the Libyan government trying to cling to power in Tobruk has stated the jihadi's facing them have more advanced weapons than they, and that's the exact same thing Iraq has said about ISIS. These weapons have been sold to Saudi-Arabia by the west and then given to the jihadists.

We must not forget that it was not only in the 80's the West assisted jihadis, only a few years ago we assisted them in Libya, vocally supported them in Egypt, provided equipment and aid and the Americans provided weapons to the "moderate" rebels in Syria.. The Wests (more specifically the U.S's) meddling in the Middle-East,  as it has Europe and now Ukraine have made situations worse, not better.

Removing secular governments has ramped up the sectarian pressure in the region and you'd have to be incredibly dumb not to realise this. Also, about power play, the U.S and West are aligned with Saudi-Arabia/Israel and on their behest has taken a firm stance toward Iran, a nation which welcomes nuclear inspectors whom find no evidence to support claims of a nuclear bomb being built and yet without evidence the West slaps sanctions on Iran which hurt the Iranian people the most, and lets not forget the Western overthrow of an Iranian leader in the 50's. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

The Roman empire played divide and conquer, the British empire played divide and conquer and the Western empire formed at the end of WW2 is also playing divide and conquer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 27, 2014, 11:18:25 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 27, 2014, 10:42:29 am
....
Removing secular governments has ramped up the sectarian pressure in the region and you'd have to be incredibly dumb not to realise this.

The Roman empire played divide and conquer, the British empire played divide and conquer and the Western empire formed at the end of WW2 is also playing divide and conquer.
......

One has to be incredibly dumb to realise this and believe this all so blindly. When someone doesnt agree with your wierdass world order bullcrap it more of proof that their mental health is okay. I can connect the dots too mate and reach different conclusions. Every person can. You pretty much stacked together many events and evidence and came up with a wierdo idea yourself, which you think is somekind of undeniable fact. Im not saying you arent correct. There is a possibility that you are right, but all this is you belive is worthless, unproven, lacks any kind of backing and is simply visioned to far in to the future and is to massive by scale in general to consider as some truth. After WW2 people like you have published all kinds of ideas and books and movies about all kinds of conclusions like this. Basically 1/10 was mybe somewhat an actual hit. So dont spin your conspiracymumbojumbo here and call others brainwashed and dumb, when you are the one with the sketchy farfetched stories that only a person whose been on the actual inside of all of this could possibly even know.

Another curious thing id like to ask is how do you see the quaporation between US and EU governments even work, when actually planning a longtime worlddominationscheme? The governmentmembers get briefed or something? What happens when some countries governments get switched and new members come to power? New members get briefed on worlddomination? :lol: Why wont the old ones than come forth. You see the big hole in your theory is that a plan like this would require a lot of preparation and people in power. And not all politicians are heartless and unintelligent. If some politicians knew or even assumed they were contributing to such cause they would run to the media. Why basically noone has? And now here comes Murmillus the visionary and claims we are all blind and dumb. GG. PS: If you do manage to find 1 or 2 politicians actually claiming this, its not enough man.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 27, 2014, 02:03:19 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 27, 2014, 10:42:29 am
(click to show/hide)


^


Its hard to find any argument in favor of US diplomacy.
Partly why everytime I hear US government involving itself in Ukraine (be it diplomatically, economically or militarily) I throw up a little in my mouth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 27, 2014, 02:04:07 pm
Its hard to find any argument in favor of russian diplomacy.
Partly why everytime I hear RU government involving itself in Ukraine (be it diplomatically, economically or militarily) I throw up a little in my mouth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 27, 2014, 02:07:14 pm
Same for RU diplomacy alright, but not same for RU war history and worldwide destabilization (1 defensive war, 1 civil war, in the last 20 years, gosh those warmongers!) and sharing history/culture/borders give more reasons to be involved with Ukraine.

Hence I throw up only a littleeeeeeeeeeeeeeee tiny bit in my mouth when I hear of RU, but a reasonable piece when I hear of US in this thread  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 27, 2014, 02:12:15 pm
That doesn't make any sense.

And I don't give a damn about the "but these are new russians, don't put them in the same bag as the commies!"

No, they are not.
They are the same, domineering aggressor, barbaric filth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 27, 2014, 02:25:55 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 27, 2014, 11:18:25 am
One has to be incredibly dumb to realise this and believe this all so blindly. When someone doesnt agree with your wierdass world order bullcrap it more of proof that their mental health is okay. I can connect the dots too mate and reach different conclusions. Every person can. You pretty much stacked together many events and evidence and came up with a wierdo idea yourself, which you think is somekind of undeniable fact. Im not saying you arent correct. There is a possibility that you are right, but all this is you belive is worthless, unproven, lacks any kind of backing and is simply visioned to far in to the future and is to massive by scale in general to consider as some truth. After WW2 people like you have published all kinds of ideas and books and movies about all kinds of conclusions like this. Basically 1/10 was mybe somewhat an actual hit. So dont spin your conspiracymumbojumbo here and call others brainwashed and dumb, when you are the one with the sketchy farfetched stories that only a person whose been on the actual inside of all of this could possibly even know.

Another curious thing id like to ask is how do you see the quaporation between US and EU governments even work, when actually planning a longtime worlddominationscheme? The governmentmembers get briefed or something? What happens when some countries governments get switched and new members come to power? New members get briefed on worlddomination? :lol: Why wont the old ones than come forth. You see the big hole in your theory is that a plan like this would require a lot of preparation and people in power. And not all politicians are heartless and unintelligent. If some politicians knew or even assumed they were contributing to such cause they would run to the media. Why basically noone has? And now here comes Murmillus the visionary and claims we are all blind and dumb. GG. PS: If you do manage to find 1 or 2 politicians actually claiming this, its not enough man.

Based on you knowledge of the conflicts, sectarian divisions, political ambitions of some of the major actors in the Middle-East I'm not insulted when you call me dumb. I seem to know a lot more in this area than yourself, but you call aspects of what you do not know or understand dumb, that is a dumb thing to do.

When Saddam Hussain was in power in Iraq, we know he was no saint and he was a bloody murderer but he also held Iraq together. Shia's and Sunni neighbourhoods were not at war with one another.

When Gaddafi was in power in Libya, Libya turned from a desert dustbowl into a relatively developed country which offered free education and healthcare to its people, he built Libya's man made river and brought water to once barren parts of Libya.

For all of their faults and for all the Western propaganda disseminated about them they held their countries together, albeit it can be argued with an iron fist, they held shit together and people could live in relative peace. Along comes NATO and all that comes to an end and endless civil war is all that remains, after the remains of hundreds of thousands of people innocent and military that is..

The above stated is factual and is based on events that ACTUALLY transpired, you can call my analysis dumb but it has much truth, any amount of name calling cannot discredit my statements alone. You've bought hook line and sinker into anti-Muslim propaganda, peddled by nationalist groups, anyone with their hands in the Middle-East and Israel, and you call me dumb, laughable.

I'm not going to pretend to know the intricacies between the relationship between various national leaders, but put it this way, the European Union has strengthened the U.S's position in Europe. Once a whole host of people are lead by so few, there are only a few that need to be in the know and need to be bought off, hardly something they will openly broadcast.

Remember weapons expert David Kelly? A respectable man whom worked for British Defence intelligence staff, had assessed the "WMD" threat posed by the WMD dossier and found it lacking in convincing evidence, he himself visited Iraq prior to the conflict and found no evidence to support claims such as, "Iraq was capable of firing battlefield biological and chemical weapons within 45 minutes of an order to use them ", he was a voice in the establishment whom opposed their agenda and eagerness to bomb Iraq back to the stone age. He was found apparently having committed suicide on 17th July 2003, I don't believe he committed suicide, he had little reason to do so, he was a voice of reason in the whole lead up to the Iraqi debacle, one I believed silenced.

I found this paragraph in Wikipedia in regards to his death.

"On the morning of 17 July 2003, Kelly was working as usual at home in Oxfordshire. Media coverage of his public appearance two days before had led many of his friends to send him supportive emails, to which he was responding. One of the emails he sent that day was to New York Times journalist Judith Miller,[20] who had used Kelly as a source in a book on bioterrorism and to whom Kelly had mentioned "many dark actors playing games."[21][22] He also received an email from his superiors at the Ministry of Defence asking for more details of his contacts with journalists."

Indeed, many dark actors playing many, deadly games, fooling the likes of you Tibe, but don't despair you're far from the only one fooled by the mainstream political narrative.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 27, 2014, 02:30:54 pm
It's funny how people who hate US the most always seem to be its biggest fans, thinking it's led by intelligent conspirators with a clear goal in mind that they're ruthlessly striving towards, this line of evil masterminds continuing unbroken for a hundred years...

Meanwhile everyone else realizes it's just a very confused giant that gets a brain scramble every few years and can't decide which way it's going and the left arm doesn't know what the right arm is doing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 27, 2014, 02:34:22 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 27, 2014, 02:30:54 pm
just a very confused giant that gets a brain scramble every few years and can't decide which way it's going and the left arm doesn't know what the right arm is doing.


Thats a fairly reasonable description of a democracy  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 02:40:33 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 27, 2014, 10:29:59 am
lol wut white arm bands?! )) kk "The two witnesses who saw paratroopers with white bands" is compelling evidence (

it might be interesting if the article came out at least a day before the video captured. But now after video every grandma will see in the bush green man with a white bandage, and on each bus will be a white circle )) I'm not trying to deny that in fact may be "little green men", but the article itself is pathetic, just speculation facts of the interrogation video.
That white arm band is a reason to get shot OR not get shot on site. I'm not sure if you played too much c-RPG, but those arm-bands are usually the only way to distinguish friend or foe and thus help or kill. I however applaud your joviality, as it needs to balance out the sadness over losses of russian soldiers in Ukraine (whose presence is OFC completely accidental) http://top.rbc.ru/politics/27/08/2014/945298.shtml, http://tvrain.ru/articles/snjali_tablichki_s_imenami_s_mogil_pskovskih_desantnikov-374615/ .
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 27, 2014, 03:49:08 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 27, 2014, 02:25:55 pm
(click to show/hide)

Blablabla something something.... Im fooled by puppeteers, you are well informed visionary..blabla. I think ive made my case. Those people with unbelievable conspiracytheories also very firmly stick to their versions, nomatter how ludicrous it is, so no suprise you stick to yours. If you are right, kudos, but its still pretty much luck. If you are wrong, hardly suprising. But its not like you and I will ever entirely know thou.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 27, 2014, 04:06:56 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 27, 2014, 11:18:25 am
One has to be incredibly dumb

But I am happy to be that "incredibly dumb" :wink:

Another thing: can you imagine that James Foley’s execution was fake or even worse?
I have read a blog entry yesterday and it's just too obvious. I can try to translate the blog entry into english:
(click to show/hide)


There is another theory ( -.- a theory again) which says that James got killed a year ago already. And with this proven fake this theory is strengthened. Since there are things like different knife etc. and the conspirator just waited for the perfect moment to publish this video.
(Btw: Saying that is a conspiracy theory :) )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 27, 2014, 04:16:29 pm
Murmi and Anuran know best. They read the proper "blogs" :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on August 27, 2014, 04:20:42 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 27, 2014, 04:16:29 pm
Murmi and Anuran know best. They read the proper "blogs" :lol:

What about actually reading, what I mentioned as proof? Or are you afraid of actually questioning something important?

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2014, 10:55:33 am
Good job on looking like a freaking idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 27, 2014, 06:06:30 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 27, 2014, 02:40:33 pm
That white arm band is a reason to get shot OR not get shot on site. I'm not sure if you played too much c-RPG, but those arm-bands are usually the only way to distinguish friend or foe and thus help or kill. I however applaud your joviality, as it needs to balance out the sadness over losses of russian soldiers in Ukraine (whose presence is OFC completely accidental) http://top.rbc.ru/politics/27/08/2014/945298.shtml, http://tvrain.ru/articles/snjali_tablichki_s_imenami_s_mogil_pskovskih_desantnikov-374615/ .
i know why they use white rm band, foolish claim that everyone who wears a white bandage - Russian, only due to the fact that several Russian wore white armbands
nasty dude, with nasty pimples  :lol:

and again "russians" with russian accent  :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 27, 2014, 11:58:21 pm
So was this posted yet?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

Elite Russian troops "accidentally" in Ukraine  :lol:

Just another example of the complete bullshit Russia is trying to feed the rest of the world. You don't just "accidentally" wander twenty kilometers into another country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 28, 2014, 12:11:16 am
I was searching for "Sorry Ukraine we accidentally your borders" then I found this http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:49:25 am
Talking to some of you is like trying to convince a devout Christian that it's possible that Aliens exist elsewhere in the Universe, he would respond, "that's not possible, God made man in his image!".. That's the kind of brick wall I feel I'm hitting here.. But as mentioned previously, I'm far from surprised, if more people were aware of the real goings on around the world or held a perspective other than one formed by the systems in which they were brought up in, (education systems/indoctrination systems) then maybe our governments wouldn't keep getting away with doing what they want, bombing who they want, spending our taxes doing so and all for naught.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 12:50:04 am
Don't worry, the feeling is mutual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:51:24 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 12:50:04 am
Don't worry, the feeling is mutual.

Dumbass of the year is on side with those whom hold opposing views to mine, you give me confidence in my own world view.

The very man who stated that humanity has been at peace for thousands of years.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 12:53:34 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:51:24 am
Dumbass of the year is on side with those whom hold opposing views to mine, you give me confidence in my own world view.

The very man who stated that humanity has been at peace for thousands of years.  :mrgreen:
That's funny, considering everyone calls you retarded and equates you with the likes of Tovi.

And figures, that went over your head like a skein of migrating geese. Need some intelligence to understand some of the stuff I say, sorry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:57:55 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 12:53:34 am
That's funny, considering everyone calls you retarded and equates you with the likes of Tovi.

And figures, that went over your head like a skein of migrating geese. Need some intelligence to understand some of the stuff I say, sorry.

"Everyone" calling me retarded does not dissuade me nor disprove  points I've made, nor does it deflect from the fact I've backed my argument and points of view with articles from news and media websites far more than those whom hold opposing views. Many of you are stuck in a narrow paradigm, easily fooled, you're welcome to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:02:54 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:57:55 am
"Everyone" calling me retarded does not dissuade me nor disprove  points I've made, nor does it deflect from the fact I've backed my argument and points of view with articles from news and media websites far more than those whom hold opposing views. Many of you are stuck in a narrow paradigm, easily fooled, you're welcome to it.
Retarded people are not easily dissuaded. Most people don't care about your points, sorry. You're welcome to stick to your irrational views, one more nutjob isn't going to make a difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 28, 2014, 01:04:02 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:49:25 am
Talking to some of you is like trying to convince a devout Christian that it's possible that Aliens exist elsewhere in the Universe, he would respond, "that's not possible, God made man in his image!"

I absolutely believe Aliens are elsewhere in the universe. The question is: Why are they not here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

And shut the fuck up Xant, your personal attacks and defenses are boring and distracting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:06:13 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 28, 2014, 01:04:02 am
I absolutely believe Aliens are elsewhere in the universe. The question is: Why are they not here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

And shut the fuck up Xant, your personal attacks and defenses are boring and distracting.
Uh... no? You're as retarded as Murmillus will ever be, I really don't give a single fuck about what you think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:08:45 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:02:54 am
Retarded people are not easily dissuaded. Most people don't care about your points, sorry. You're welcome to stick to your irrational views, one more nutjob isn't going to make a difference.

What's laughable is that when I call you dumbass I quote your own words, when you call me retard you don't back it up with my statements, (probably because many of my statements have been based in reality and/or evidence to support), you just call me retard because you don't understand or have as much knowledge on the subject as I, call me arrogant but the more you call me a retard the more I'll believe this to be true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:11:46 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:08:45 am
What's laughable is that when I call you dumbass I quote your own words, when you call me retard you don't back it up with my statements, (probably because many of my statements have been based in reality and/or evidence to support), you just call me retard because you don't understand or have as much knowledge on the subject as I, call me arrogant but the more you call me a retard the more I'll believe this to be true.
It's great that you show how much your logic fails without me needing to do anything. You can quote my words at me and that proves... what? Nothing. I can grab a random sentence of yours and call you a dumbass if it makes you feel better. You're just not smart enough to understand what I write. It must be tough, but like I always say, nobody's stupid on purpose, you didn't choose your sub-100 IQ genetics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:14:20 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:11:46 am
It's great that you show how much your logic fails without me needing to do anything. You can quote my words at me and that proves... what? Nothing. I can grab a random sentence of yours and call you a dumbass if it makes you feel better. You're just not smart enough to understand what I write. It must be tough, but like I always say, nobody's stupid on purpose, you didn't choose your sub-100 IQ genetics.

I can quote your inane statement and disprove it within an instant. You can quote my statement(s) and with the wealth at knowledge at my finger tips I will find supporting views and evidence to back myself up.

I ask you Xant, bring it on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:15:14 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:14:20 am
I can quote your inane statement and disprove it within an instant. You can quote my statement(s) and with the wealth at knowledge at my finger tips I will find supporting views and evidence to back myself up.

I ask you Xant, bring it on.
Go on then, disprove anything I've ever said. Not holding my breath though, I don't want to pass out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:19:37 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:15:14 am
Go on then, disprove anything I've ever said. Not holding my breath though, I don't want to pass out.

"Humanity has been at peace for thousands of the years".... (Something like that?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars/u/WarsandBattles.htm

Read and weep.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:20:35 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:19:37 am
"Humanity has been at peace for thousands of the years".... (Something like that?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars/u/WarsandBattles.htm

Read and weep.
Prove I said that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:22:52 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:20:35 am
Prove I said that.

You're really going to make me go back pages in this thread to quote what you may now have already deleted to save yourself embarrassment? The fact you did not deny you had said such a thing when I brought it up tonight is proof enough that you have made the statement. You are snaking and wriggling, unable to meet me head on it's almost a waste of time responding to you, I know you feed off getting a reaction and being given attention but feeding you provides me with entertainment also.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 28, 2014, 01:23:36 am
Xant I don't think Murmi needs you to keep producing reading material. If anything the quality decreased since you started harassing him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:24:19 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:22:52 am
You're really going to make me go back pages in this thread to quote what you may now have already deleted to save yourself embarrassment? The fact you did not deny you had said such a thing when I brought it up tonight is proof enough that you have made the statements. You are snaking and wriggling, unable to meet me head on it's almost a waste of time responding to you, I know you feed off getting a reaction and being given attention but feeding you provides me with entertainment also.
I've no reason to delete anything. Your inability to understand simple sentences doesn't make me wriggle. There, like in every other thread, the conclusion everyone reached was that you're retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:27:08 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:24:19 am
I've no reason to delete anything. Your inability to understand simple sentences doesn't make me wriggle. There, like in every other thread, the conclusion everyone reached was that you're retarded.

I admit I did mis-understand the true meaning of ad-hominem initially earlier on in this thread, however what then was posted by yourself later on was tantamount to ad-hominem and when challenged on this you did not respond, because you realised that I was back on the ball.

Hey look I can admit when I'm wrong, something you're utterly incapable of doing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:30:44 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:27:08 am
I admit I did mis-understand the true meaning of ad-hominem initially earlier on in this thread, however what then was posted by yourself later on was tantamount to ad-hominem and when challenged on this you did not respond, because you realised that I was back on the ball.

Hey look I can admit when I'm wrong, something you're utterly incapable of doing.
I'll admit I'm wrong when it turns out I'm wrong. But, you see, the difference between us, among other other things, is that I don't speak out of my ass. When I say something, I know what I'm talking about. And no, I've not made a single ad hominem against you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:31:52 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:30:44 am
I'll admit I'm wrong when it turns out I'm wrong. But, you see, the difference between us, among other other things, is that I don't speak out of my ass. When I say something, I know what I'm talking about. And no, I've not made a single ad hominem against you.

You don't speak out of your ass, you think out of your ass then the shit leaves your mouth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:33:11 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:31:52 am
You don't speak out of your ass, you think out of your ass then the shit leaves your mouth.
I'm sure the other kids in kindergarten would've thought that a very clever thing to say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:33:46 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:33:11 am
I'm sure the other kids in kindergarten would've thought that a very clever thing to say.

I sure did, I even giggled.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:35:32 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:33:46 am
I sure did, I even giggled.
So, we're finished? Nothing more to say? You give up your great quest to disprove something I've said? And you're proven to be incapable of proving what you say, once again. GG, no re.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:36:07 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:35:32 am
So, we're finished? Nothing more to say? You give up your great quest to disprove something I've said? And you're proven to be incapable of proving what you say, once again. GG, no re.

I didn't say we're finished, unless you give up? I win? Thanks bro.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:38:28 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:36:07 am
I didn't say we're finished, unless you give up? I win? Thanks bro.
It's funny how you did the exact same thing as back when you were too retarded to understand what an ad hominem was -- suddenly shift the subject - called red herring, by the way - when you're in a tough spot.

When asked to prove I said what you claimed I said, you suddenly start talking about how you misunderstood the nature of ad hominem earlier on.  :lol:

It's gold, I'm liking the clear pattern in all your arguments.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:42:15 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:38:28 am
It's funny how you did the exact same thing as back when you were too retarded to understand what an ad hominem was -- suddenly shift the subject - called red herring, by the way - when you're in a tough spot.

When asked to prove I said what you claimed I said, you suddenly start talking about how you misunderstood the nature of ad hominem earlier on.  :lol:

It's gold, I'm liking the clear pattern in all your arguments.

I disproved your point over 20 minutes ago, I guess you were too dumb to realise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:42:56 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:42:15 am
I disproved your point over 20 minutes ago, I guess you were too dumb to realise.
You mean you disproved a straw man you made.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:43:25 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:42:56 am
You mean you disproved a straw man you made.

Nope. I disproved a statement that you made.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 01:44:40 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:43:25 am
Nope. I disproved a statement that you made.
I never made that statement. Here's a statement you made, one I can't disprove:

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:43:25 am
I'm retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 28, 2014, 01:45:22 am
Send me a pm when we reach page 500. I swear this thread will die after the mod does.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 28, 2014, 01:59:41 am
Its because we have very skilled debaters which can infuse life in dead horses and beat the living shit off of them.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:00:58 am
Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 12:20:28 am
Romans didn't have much trouble out of Carthage after their military solution.

Military solutions have succeeded in bringing about peace in the world, Murmillus, thousands of years of peace in human society is proof of this.

On Panos' thread called "The Jew's are at it again".

Now Xant, bring it on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:07:50 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:00:58 am
On Panos' thread called "The Jew's are at it again".

Now Xant, bring it on.
Bring what on? Like you can see, I never said:

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:19:37 am
"Humanity has been at peace for thousands of the years"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:11:43 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 01:19:37 am
"Humanity has been at peace for thousands of the years".... (Something like that?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars/u/WarsandBattles.htm

Read and weep.

See that point I bolded? It's me admitting that I'm not wholly confident on the wording used, after all it was 20 days ago? Anyway, point stands.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:12:20 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:11:43 am
See that point I bolded? It's me admitting that I'm not wholly confident on the wording used, after all it was 20 days ago? Anyway, point stands.
Nope, point doesn't stand. Different wording = different meaning.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:14:15 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:12:20 am
Nope, point doesn't stand. Different wording = different meaning.

Name one nation that has enjoyed peace for thousands of years? Name one society that has enjoyed peace for thousands of years? You can't? Point stands. Inane statement is inane, you see I can attack you based on the placement of your words and the lack thereof too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 28, 2014, 02:15:10 am
guys, take it to PM's or irc. Duels?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:15:49 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 28, 2014, 02:15:10 am
guys, take it to PM's or irc. Duels?

Duels sound good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:18:15 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:14:15 am
Name one nation that has enjoyed peace for thousands of years? Name one society that has enjoyed peace for thousands of years? You can't? Point stands. Inane statement is inane, you see I can attack you based on the placement of your words and the lack thereof too.
I don't think any nation has been at peace for thousands of years in a row. Which is why I never claimed that. Your reading comprehension being awful is your problem, not mine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:22:58 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:18:15 am
I don't think any nation has been at peace for thousands of years in a row. Which is why I never claimed that. Your reading comprehension being awful is your problem, not mine.

Your words can easily be interpreted as such, however if you had choose to add three more words then the point you were trying to make could not have been confused or could not be subject to more than one meaning. Let me amend your statement for you, to make the point that you should have made, also pluralise society to include the whole of humanity.

"Military solutions have succeeded in bringing about peace in the world, Murmillus, thousands of years of the existence of peace in human societies is proof of this."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:24:46 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:22:58 am
Your words can easily be interpreted as such, however if you had choose to add three more words then the point you were trying to make could not have been confused or could not be subject to more than one meaning. Let me amend your statement for you, to make the point that you should have made, also pluralise society to include the whole of humanity.

"Military solutions have succeeded in bringing about peace in the world, Murmillus, thousands of years of the existence of peace in human societies is proof of this."
Only people with IQs below room temperature confused my meaning, so that's fine, there were enough words.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:26:13 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:24:46 am
Only people with IQs below room temperature confused my meaning, so that's fine, there were enough words.

Nope. It was your failure to solidify the point you were trying to make which left the statement open to interpretation. Your FAILURE.

Now, do you want go EU3 or keep getting your ass kicked on here?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:26:59 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:26:13 am
Nope. It was your failure to solidify the point you were trying to make which left the statement open to interpretation. Your FAILURE.
Nope, it was your failure. Proof: nobody else was confused.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:27:50 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:26:59 am
Nope, it was your failure. Proof: nobody else was confused.

Nobody else cared.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:28:56 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:27:50 am
Nobody else cared.
Others were perfectly capable of understanding it. For example: http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/the-jews-are-at-it-again/msg1053305/#msg1053305

Don't project your stupidity on others.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:34:09 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:28:56 am
Others were perfectly capable of understanding it. For example: http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/the-jews-are-at-it-again/msg1053305/#msg1053305

Don't project your stupidity on others.

The point that you've highlighted is discussing the duality of existence, black and white, light and dark, war and peace. You're now sidestepping the point that you made a statement which could easily be interpreted as though you actually believe that human society has been at peace for thousands of years, when you even admitted that peace was sought through military action.

What I find hilarious is in the same thread I made the point that peace made from war only leads to more war, (in other words), your rebuttal toward that point was that I had to prove that humanity had been at peace for thousands of years when it was you whom made that point in the first place.

Quote from: Xant on August 09, 2014, 02:05:08 pm
Holla back when we have everlasting peace. Oh wait, isn't that convenient, it's something you'll never be able to prove.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:36:05 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:34:09 am
The point that you've highlighted is discussing the duality of existence, black and white, light and dark, war and peace. You're now sidestepping the point that you made a statement which could easily be interpreted as though you actually believe that human society has been at peace for thousands of years, when you even admitted that peace was sought through military action.

What I find hilarious is in the same thread I made the point that peace made from war only leads to more war, (in other words), your rebuttal toward that point was that I had to prove that humanity had been at peace for thousands of years when it was you whom made that point in the first place.
Way to completely (still) miss the point. Living up to your reputation of obtuseness, keep it up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:37:02 am
You've only helped to prove how stupid you really are, I merely only had to use your own words against you, contradict yourself.. Derp.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:38:43 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:37:02 am
You've only helped to prove how stupid you really are, I merely only had to use your own words against you, contradict yourself.. Derp.
Thanks for contradicting yourself again. Way to make yourself look stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:39:32 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:38:43 am
Thanks for contradicting yourself again. Way to make yourself look stupid.

Deflection, head in the sand tactics now eh? Getting desperate Xant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 02:43:58 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 02:39:32 am
Deflection, head in the sand tactics now eh? Getting desperate Xant.
I'm glad you see your tactics are those of desperation now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 28, 2014, 02:59:07 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 28, 2014, 01:45:22 am
Send me a pm when we reach page 500. I swear this thread will die after the mod does.

Last one alive, lock the door
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 28, 2014, 04:05:07 am
Xant shut the fuck up, no one cares.

You don't win internet arguments. Period.

Only thing you are good for is making a thread go on for 100+ pages.
 Fucking Finns, Lost a war back in '44 and can't stop being bitches since. /scsm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 04:22:14 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 28, 2014, 04:05:07 am
Xant shut the fuck up, no one cares.

You don't win internet arguments. Period.

Only thing you are good for is making a thread go on for 100+ pages.
 Fucking Finns, Lost a war back in '44 and can't stop being bitches since. /scsm
Apparently they don't teach very good maths in America, the thread is 400+ pages already.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: wayyyyyne on August 28, 2014, 04:32:30 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 04:22:14 am
Apparently they don't teach very good maths in America, the thread is 400+ pages already.

holy shit what an EPIC diss
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 04:36:50 am
Quote from: wayyyyyne on August 28, 2014, 04:32:30 am
holy shit what an EPIC diss
It's not a diss, it's a fact. You can see the page number on the bottom of the page.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 28, 2014, 04:52:15 am
Thread needs more MLG footage


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 28, 2014, 06:15:16 am
Quote from: Xant on August 28, 2014, 04:22:14 am
Apparently they don't teach very good maths in America, the thread is 400+ pages already.

Oh, ho. Trying to play smart. I see someone knows his maths very well. :rolleyes:

I was honestly expecting you to make a quip about how the war was in '44...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 08:53:07 am
To bring this back on topic, NATO has done some homework and prepared a MAP for those russians, who find "BORDERS HARD, K?"
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/canada-nato-russia-ukraine-putin-2014-8

In COMPLETELY unrelated episode - two countries, which traditionally try to maintain their neutrality suddenly...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/finland-sweden-increase-ties-nato-25140882 (BECAUSE OFC NATO/NWO FORCED THEM!).

For those, who find reading google translate difficult - a short story about russian soldier graves http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28949582

Oh, and then there is this nice readup about russian soldiers and the drawings they post on their soc'networks: https://bellingcat.com/news/mena/2014/08/27/revealed-around-40-russian-troops-from-pskov-died-in-the-ukraine-reinforcement-sent-in/ . And for the liars like Murmi - naztees are still in power in UKRAINE, not russia.... RIIIiiiiiight...

Oh, and related question to our russian readers: So now, that there are more proofs than can be denied - can you please explain me, how those 87% still support him and main question is - are YOU supporting putler and if so - why? I'm genuinely interested in knowing...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 28, 2014, 08:54:54 am
You know the wierd thing is that Murmillus complained about his rising livingcosts and countries waging war for oil. Mate, you do realise your livingcosts are basically mainly dependant on oil. If the price for oil skyrocketed you would starve to death. Plastics would cost a fuckton, you couldnt afford a car, publictransportation would be too expensive, all goods would cost a fuckton more cause the transportingcosts would also skyrocket etc etc etc. Complain and theorize as much as you like, but it is a possibility, if the West hadnt waged its oilwars you would be better off living in Saudi-Arabia by now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 09:20:33 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 28, 2014, 08:54:54 am
You know the wierd thing is that Murmillus complained about his rising livingcosts and countries waging war for oil. Mate, you do realise your livingcosts are basically mainly dependant on oil. If the price for oil skyrocketed you would starve to death. Plastics would cost a fuckton, you couldnt afford a car, publictransportation would be too expensive, all goods would cost a fuckton more cause the transportingcosts would also skyrocket etc etc etc. Complain and theorize as much as you like, but it is a possibility, if the West hadnt waged its oilwars you would be better off living in Saudi-Arabia by now.

You know - its about time to start disregarding liars like Murmillus, unless you spot some obvious BS and have the time/energy to point that out to him. When everyone else is wrong and "I KNOW I AM RIGHT" ... well... you can't argue with that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 28, 2014, 11:20:42 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 08:53:07 am
To bring this back on topic, NATO has done some homework and prepared a MAP for those russians, who find "BORDERS HARD, K?"
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/canada-nato-russia-ukraine-putin-2014-8

bla bla bla
I'm sure you will not even find your own city country on a topographic map  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 11:27:32 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 28, 2014, 11:20:42 am
I'm sure you will not even find your own city country on a topographic map  :P
Wait... you buying into whole that "we accidentally drove into Ukraine fully armed and with covered markings" story? I would like to think better of you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 28, 2014, 11:39:12 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 11:27:32 am
Wait... you buying into whole that "we accidentally drove into Ukraine fully armed and with covered markings" story? I would like to think better of you.
nope they drove into Ukraine unarmed with an unloaded weapon to surrender  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:55:38 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 28, 2014, 08:54:54 am
You know the wierd thing is that Murmillus complained about his rising livingcosts and countries waging war for oil. Mate, you do realise your livingcosts are basically mainly dependant on oil. If the price for oil skyrocketed you would starve to death. Plastics would cost a fuckton, you couldnt afford a car, publictransportation would be too expensive, all goods would cost a fuckton more cause the transportingcosts would also skyrocket etc etc etc. Complain and theorize as much as you like, but it is a possibility, if the West hadnt waged its oilwars you would be better off living in Saudi-Arabia by now.

Diplomacy can secure trade deals as much as military action can secure resources for corporations and interested parties. And yes of course I know the cost of living in the U.K is dependant largely  on the price of oil as we import most of our food in the U.K, however our living costs are mostly rising due to inflation at present and not the price of oil. Therefore your argument is only a what if situation and not the driver behind todays situation. Besides, if we didn't snatch oil from the Iraqi's or Libyans we could always buy oil from Iran or South American nations, and if we weren't buying oil from Saudi-Arabia and selling them weapons we would no longer be funding and arming terrorism via proxy, a win win situation for the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 01:04:11 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 28, 2014, 11:39:12 am
nope they drove into Ukraine unarmed with an unloaded weapon to surrender  :P
You are good with dodging hard questions with witty remarks. Most of the time at least  :rolleyes:

So there is this one guy who was protesting putlers bullshit - http://echo.msk.ru/blog/mynameisphilipp/1388860-echo/, not all hope lost :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 28, 2014, 01:30:35 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on August 28, 2014, 12:55:38 pm
Diplomacy can secure trade deals as much as military action can secure resources for corporations and interested parties. And yes of course I know the cost of living in the U.K is dependant largely  on the price of oil as we import most of our food in the U.K, however our living costs are mostly rising due to inflation at present and not the price of oil. Therefore your argument is only a what if situation and not the driver behind todays situation. Besides, if we didn't snatch oil from the Iraqi's or Libyans we could always buy oil from Iran or South American nations, and if we weren't buying oil from Saudi-Arabia and selling them weapons we would no longer be funding and arming terrorism via proxy, a win win situation for the world.
Ye, cause buying oil instead of snatching it is so much less costly. Also a what if situation..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 28, 2014, 01:55:14 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 01:04:11 pm
So there is this one guy who was protesting putlers bullshit - http://echo.msk.ru/blog/mynameisphilipp/1388860-echo/, not all hope lost :?

He is member of 5th column!

Dissolve the parliament at once! :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 28, 2014, 04:24:45 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 28, 2014, 06:15:16 am
Oh, ho. Trying to play smart. I see someone knows his maths very well. :rolleyes:

I was honestly expecting you to make a quip about how the war was in '44...
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Smoothrich

SOAP
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 28, 2014, 08:34:34 pm
French volunteers !


We gonna kick arses to those fucking banderists.

And a good news for our troops : http://rt.com/news/183368-ukraine-novoazovsk-kiev-troops/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 28, 2014, 08:50:18 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 28, 2014, 08:34:34 pm
We gonna kick arses to those fucking banderists.

So you are there fighting as well? Good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mwahahaha on August 28, 2014, 09:22:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 28, 2014, 08:34:34 pm
French volunteers !

We gonna kick arses to those fucking banderists.

And a good news for our troops : http://rt.com/news/183368-ukraine-novoazovsk-kiev-troops/

Banderists? Look, today in Mariupol, Donetsk region:
You will never see this on RT etc.... cuz Mariupol must be a such pro-russian city, yeah?  Thoose ppl will fight for their land against occupants, and seems occupants are not some mythical banderists, but terorists and even regular russian millitary forces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 28, 2014, 09:55:17 pm
Quote from: Mwahahaha on August 28, 2014, 09:22:29 pm
(click to show/hide)
they will quickly adapt and in time even will love Putin  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 28, 2014, 10:48:38 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 28, 2014, 09:55:17 pm
they will quickly adapt and in time even will love Putin  :P

Like in 1984?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 28, 2014, 10:53:17 pm
Serr,You like when people talk about Zaporizhzhye?  "Chervone field" this is the Zaporizhzhya region...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 28, 2014, 11:11:33 pm
You like to be the center of attention. You believe in their exclusivity. You are ready to go at all, for the sake of its relevance. You still think that the difficulties are simply tests that are assigned to the higher powers, on the way to fulfilling the great mission. But any show tire the audience. People will stop looking interactive reality show "Ukraine - center of the universe". There are already new and more bloody transfer of Iraq, Syria, Libya. Very soon you realize that you are not unique, that you whom are not necessary.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 28, 2014, 11:24:28 pm
ahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 11:56:59 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on August 28, 2014, 11:11:33 pm
You like to be the center of attention. You believe in their exclusivity. You are ready to go at all, for the sake of its relevance. You still think that the difficulties are simply tests that are assigned to the higher powers, on the way to fulfilling the great mission. But any show tire the audience. People will stop looking interactive reality show "Ukraine - center of the universe". There are already new and more bloody transfer of Iraq, Syria, Libya. Very soon you realize that you are not unique, that you whom are not necessary.
What the fuck are you smoking? How is this "you are not unique" even relevant? Like in a sense "you are not unique in a sense, that russia invaded you?"

Oh, and some time ago there was this "fake" convoy, which Ukraine claimed to have destroyed. Lets see... dots connect kinda well, although - is this the same convoy or not - noone can be sure now I guess . http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-casualties-idUKKBN0GS20H20140828

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 29, 2014, 12:07:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 11:56:59 pm
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-casualties-idUKKBN0GS20H20140828


Quote
the Russian presidential human rights council said

We hear them quite a lot these days, always having top notch information.
Who are they?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 29, 2014, 12:28:59 am
Quote from: Christo on August 28, 2014, 11:24:28 pm
ahahahahahaha

Not particularly funny tbh. Guess that is why this low intensity war is going on for such a long period. Putin wants to tire western audience and bore them just enough they find another "hot" topic to follow. Then he will do his thing, in the shades, far from curious eyes. And deny that anything happened, which will pass because fighting Russia is costly and can't be justified without "proof".

Shame for normal people, who are once again becoming victims of bloodthirsty nationalists. That is why I'm taking no stance in this conflict, it is fought between radical nationalists on both sides. Just like Balkan civil war.

Wish I could find a way how to get rid of nationalist swines without becoming one. Pushing them aside and denying them right to make decisions has become increasingly hard these days.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 29, 2014, 12:37:12 am
Low intensity wars are indeed the wars of today and tomorrow. Do it over a long enough period, staying just under the "omg massive outrage" line, and you can do anything. Worked great for Russia in Crimea already.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 01:27:32 am
As the possibility of NATO military deployment in Ukraine grows more plausible, I have no idea how this will turn out. I also have no idea why Russia is acting so mindlessly. Maybe there are dysfunctions between military and political leaders, that wouldn't be the first time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 29, 2014, 01:31:18 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 01:27:32 am
As the possibility of NATO military deployment in Ukraine grows more plausible, I have no idea how this will turn out. I also have no idea why Russia is acting so mindlessly. Maybe there are dysfunctions between military and political leaders, that wouldn't be the first time.

To them its just like a game of Paradox RTS
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 29, 2014, 08:15:05 am
Quote from: Christo on August 29, 2014, 01:31:18 am
To them its just like a game of Paradox RTS
Where their faction doesnt get any diplomacy points but have an overabundance of military points.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 29, 2014, 08:35:50 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 28, 2014, 11:56:59 pm
What the fuck are you smoking? How is this "you are not unique" even relevant? Like in a sense "you are not unique in a sense, that russia invaded you?"

Oh, and some time ago there was this "fake" convoy, which Ukraine claimed to have destroyed. Lets see... dots connect kinda well, although - is this the same convoy or not - noone can be sure now I guess . http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-casualties-idUKKBN0GS20H20140828
"Ella Polyakova and Sergei Krivenko, both members of the council" also  both members of the public organizations.  ella " the chairman of the Soldiers' Mothers of St. Petersburg " and Sergei "people and the army, and both  public organizations is " foreign agents " from 2001 financed by foreign funds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy. only in 2013 they gift (просрали XD) ~8mil $$ for our democratia  :P I especially like this: $360,241
"Reducing Corruption
To reduce the corruption potential of laws and regulations that affect entrepreneurs in Russia. This organization will strengthen anti-corruption expertise by training local experts to more effectively review legislation and by supporting them in the accreditation process with the Ministry of Justice." I bet 90% of dat moneyz were misappropriated  :P

so Of course they do useful things, but they are a bit biased about several hundred thousand dollars per year )))

Quote from: Tibe on August 29, 2014, 08:15:05 am
Where their faction doesnt get any diplomacy points but have an overabundance of military points.

fortunately all the other factions - aI with difficulty "cock sucker"

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 29, 2014, 09:07:54 am
Quote from: Vovka on August 29, 2014, 08:35:50 am
"Ella Polyakova and Sergei Krivenko, both members of the council" also  both members of the public organizations.  ella " the chairman of the Soldiers' Mothers of St. Petersburg " and Sergei "people and the army, and both  public organizations is " foreign agents " from 2001 financed by foreign funds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy. only in 2013 they gift (просрали XD) ~8mil $$ for our democratia  :P I especially like this: $360,241
"Reducing Corruption
To reduce the corruption potential of laws and regulations that affect entrepreneurs in Russia. This organization will strengthen anti-corruption expertise by training local experts to more effectively review legislation and by supporting them in the accreditation process with the Ministry of Justice." I bet 90% of dat moneyz were misappropriated  :P
What else do you "bet" about? You don't have to judge everyone around you by thinking "what would I do if I was in their place". And also - ANY organization receiving funding from outside of russia is a "foreign agent", including Red Cross, organizations like "Save the Children", etc.

In this particular case - I do not see how them receiving (IMHO) modest support funds is indicative of not being trust worthy. Trainings to do proper journalism? Whats wrong with that? If they indeed represent mothers of the soldiers who died due to empty putlers ambitions - I would love to see you telling them to their face, that they are lying.
Do you find something in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia false? Did they have some corruption shadow applied to them? Or is this suspicion a simple default reaction to something you don't know personally?

Quote from: Vovka on August 29, 2014, 08:35:50 am
so Of course they do useful things, but they are a bit biased about several hundred thousand dollars per year )))

fortunately all the other factions - aI with difficulty "cock sucker"

(click to show/hide)
I... do not understand what you wanted to say with this :?

However - I would like to repeat my question:
Oh, and related question to our russian readers: So now, that there are more proofs than can be denied - can you please explain me, how those 87% still support him and main question is - are YOU supporting putler and if so - why? I'm genuinely interested in knowing...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 29, 2014, 09:22:00 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 01:27:32 am
As the possibility of NATO military deployment in Ukraine grows more plausible, I have no idea how this will turn out. I also have no idea why Russia is acting so mindlessly. Maybe there are dysfunctions between military and political leaders, that wouldn't be the first time.
I hardly doubt that.
Ukraine is not a NATO partner. Even if Russia chooses a full assault on the Ukraine, nothing more than "sanction them!!1" will happen.
Everyone is barking at Russia but it's a too big of a dog to actually bite it.
More NATO troops in actual partner countries along the the borders - probable and already happening - but an actual NATO intervention with troops and gear? Nope, can't imagine that. Or it's just me being scared about such a scenario with a direct confrontation.
And considering that China was very silent - problematicly silent for Russia - in the council about the whole Crimea deal... I have a really hard time to imagine who in Russia can possibly think it to be a good idea to actually invade "again".

We'll see and find out in a few days I guess. Maybe it is a good idea for Dave and Serr to start learning the lyrics of the Russian national anthem :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 29, 2014, 09:25:12 am
Quote from: Molly on August 29, 2014, 09:22:00 am
I hardly doubt that.
Ukraine is not a NATO partner. Even if Russia chooses a full assault on the Ukraine, nothing more than "sanction them!!1" will happen.
Everyone is barking at Russia but it's a too big of a dog to actually bite it.
More NATO troops in actual partner countries along the the borders - probable and already happening - but an actual NATO intervention with troops and gear? Nope, can't imagine that. Or it's just me being scared about such a scenario with a direct confrontation.
And considering that China was very silent - problematicly silent for Russia - in the council about the whole Crimea deal... I have a really hard time to imagine who in Russia can possibly think it to be a good idea to actually invade "again".

We'll see and find out in a few days I guess. Maybe it is a good idea for Dave and Serr to start learning the lyrics of the Russian national anthem :?
What I would actually like to see happening is peacekeeping forces deployed by UN.

And overall - I know I'm naive - but I want to believe, that most in the west will learn their lesson about the new putlers russia...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 29, 2014, 09:57:18 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 29, 2014, 09:07:54 am
What else do you "bet" about? You don't have to judge everyone around you by thinking "what would I do if I was in their place". And also - ANY organization receiving funding from outside of russia is a "foreign agent", including Red Cross, organizations like "Save the Children", etc.
In this particular case - I do not see how them receiving (IMHO) modest support funds is indicative of not being trust worthy. Trainings to do proper journalism? Whats wrong with that? If they indeed represent mothers of the soldiers who died due to empty putlers ambitions - I would love to see you telling them to their face, that they are lying.
Do you find something in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia false? Did they have some corruption shadow applied to them? Or is this suspicion a simple default reaction to something you don't know personally?
I live in a cruel world (and I believe that if someone holds you until you lift the soap there is a risk that he wants to fuck you in the ass, and not just going through what you can to slip and fall)
 

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 12:49:33 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 29, 2014, 09:22:00 am
Everyone is barking at Russia but it's a too big of a dog to actually bite it.

Well, not really. In a real conventional war against NATO the Russian military forces would be done for in a few months. But (for good reason) nobody wants that to happen.

Whether Ukraine is officially a NATO partner doesn't really matter. All it takes is both parties to be willing, and the Ukrainians certainly are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 29, 2014, 01:01:50 pm
I dare to say that what the Ukrainians want is of no concern to anyone at this point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 01:04:47 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 29, 2014, 01:01:50 pm
I dare to say that what the Ukrainians want is of no concern to anyone at this point.

I think it is because whoever "wins" will be held responsible by the locals.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 29, 2014, 01:35:33 pm
Quote from: Christo on August 29, 2014, 01:31:18 am
To them its just like a game of Paradox RTS

Them = ?


 :lol:



Quote from: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 01:27:32 am
As the possibility of NATO military deployment in Ukraine grows more plausible, I have no idea how this will turn out. I also have no idea why Russia is acting so mindlessly. Maybe there are dysfunctions between military and political leaders, that wouldn't be the first time.


Ukraine forced to either exhaust itself in a war it doesnt need, or to negotiate a peace it doesnt want.
NATO forced to include a country it doesnt need, extending its iron belt to new borders, or to negotiate a sortie de crise with its age old enemy.


Except the economical sanctions and prophecies of "rushya gonna starve!!11!!111!!1!", whats mindless about it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 29, 2014, 01:36:12 pm
German news reported repeatedly that Merkel and Putin called each other several times by now.
Who knows how often they call each other and it's not reported.
Those few power mongers decide what happens with the Ukraine. I might even go so far that no Ukrainian has any say in their "fate".

Crap, I start to sound like Tovi :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on August 29, 2014, 02:15:39 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 01:04:47 pm
I think it is because whoever "wins" will be held responsible by the locals.
And these guys are going to build a railway to Magadan. Experts say that even for a salary of$1000, there will be many manifestations of enthusiasm on the basis of love for Russia. The project will be several times cheaper. That will allow the budget RF to save sufficient funds for the construction/repair of Donetsk, Lugansk and other cities.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 02:46:09 pm
Lol ivani have you ever traveled outside of mother russia?

Quote from: Butan on August 29, 2014, 01:35:33 pm
Ukraine forced to either exhaust itself in a war it doesnt need, or to negotiate a peace it doesnt want.
NATO forced to include a country it doesnt need, extending its iron belt to new borders, or to negotiate a sortie de crise with its age old enemy.

Age old enemy? The RF isn't willing to negotiate a sortie de crise at all anyway. And even if it did, all evidence suggest the terms would not be respected by the RF.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 29, 2014, 03:13:22 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on August 29, 2014, 02:15:39 pm
(click to show/hide)
And these guys are going to build a railway to Magadan. Experts say that even for a salary of$1000, there will be many manifestations of enthusiasm on the basis of love for Russia. The project will be several times cheaper. That will allow the budget RF to save sufficient funds for the construction/repair of Donetsk, Lugansk and other cities.
(click to show/hide)

Just to doublecheck - you would be one of the idiots to who Lavrov sounded completely ok and true, when he "saw no humiliation in the parading of Ukraine captives" during the Ukraine's day of independence, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 29, 2014, 05:29:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 29, 2014, 02:46:09 pm
Age old enemy? The RF isn't willing to negotiate a sortie de crise at all anyway. And even if it did, all evidence suggest the terms would not be respected by the RF.

Spoken like a true western warrior :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on August 29, 2014, 09:04:19 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 29, 2014, 05:29:07 pm
Spoken like a true western warrior :mrgreen:
Oh you mean he tells the truth 90% of the time versus 5% for Putin and company?  Very insightful of you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 29, 2014, 10:26:41 pm
Quote from: Molly on August 29, 2014, 09:22:00 am
We'll see and find out in a few days I guess. Maybe it is a good idea for Dave and Serr to start learning the lyrics of the Russian national anthem :?

Nah. If I manage to survive this conflict and it gets an undesirable ending for me then I'll just do my best leaving my home for a better place to live (I like Ireland and Germany). If I get mobilized (I still didn't, means that they don't really lack officers there) - I will not hide, but let's be honest: I'm not going to take part in a guerilla war and I don't wanna be "an hero" commando. If my country loses - I will not be ashamed to death, I'll deal with it. And yes, my country is Ukraine, even though I'm Russian and was born in USSR.

PS. Ivani4 can suck my dick.
PPS. He actually can't because he sucks a dick of a bald KGB midget but who cares, I'm looking forward to read "gayropean junta banderist fаscist" comments.

 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 29, 2014, 11:32:32 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 29, 2014, 10:26:41 pm
PS. Ivani4 can suck my dick.
PPS. He actually can't because he sucks a dick of a bald KGB midget but who cares, I'm looking forward to read "gayropean junta banderist fаscist" comments.
you're talking about  dick sucking as if it were something bad, you're a homophobe? ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 29, 2014, 11:53:15 pm
Last military operations :

(click to show/hide)

Just a question of time before Mariupol falls.
Stukalova Balka has fallen to the hands of Novorossia.
Rodakovo is taken by Kiev forces.
Komosomolsk is under Ukraine attack, but offensive units will fall in a new "cauldron" (the blue bubble on the left, on the map). I think they tried to help the first cauldron (the right blue bubble), but they fall themselves in a trap.


Résumé : Ukraine army loose positions in the south + hard fights around Lugansk in the north.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 29, 2014, 11:57:34 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 29, 2014, 11:32:32 pm
you're talking about  dick sucking as if it were something bad, you're a homophobe? ((

The plot thickens.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:17:18 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 29, 2014, 10:26:41 pm
Nah. If I manage to survive this conflict and it gets an undesirable ending for me then I'll just do my best leaving my home for a better place to live (I like Ireland and Germany). If I get mobilized (I still didn't, means that they don't really lack officers there) - I will not hide, but let's be honest: I'm not going to take part in a guerilla war and I don't wanna be "an hero" commando. If my country loses - I will not be ashamed to death, I'll deal with it. And yes, my country is Ukraine, even though I'm Russian and was born in USSR.

PS. Ivani4 can suck my dick.
PPS. He actually can't because he sucks a dick of a bald KGB midget but who cares, I'm looking forward to read "gayropean junta banderist fаscist" comments.

Dave, do you have the opportunity to hear them ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 30, 2014, 12:40:11 am
So the true faces appear. This was never about justice or truth. We knew RF was lying, and you knew it probably even better. (Still you defend Putin's actions)

People in here honestly feel it's right and good that Russia serves herself pieces of Ukraine.

Can you tell my WHY this is ok with you? Vovka, Tovi, Butan?

...That reaction when asked about RF regular units:


They are not very good liars.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
Because people may have the right to choose independance or not. Like in Tchecoslovakia, or in Scotland soon. If they want to leave, let them go, don't try to kill them and call them "terrorist".

If the same people live in 2 differents countries, like east and west germany, they have the right to join if they choose this way.

It seems pretty much more reasonable than making war to maintain artificial borders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 30, 2014, 06:19:26 am
Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
Because people may have the right to choose independance or not. Like in Tchecoslovakia, or in Scotland soon. If they want to leave, let them go, don't try to kill them and call them "terrorist".

If the same people live in 2 differents countries, like east and west germany, they have the right to join if they choose this way.

It seems pretty much more reasonable than making war to maintain artificial borders.

But Russia started it First by "Annexing" Crimea and taking it's military bases with it. Totally not a "we support Russia" move and totally a "Power Projection" move.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 30, 2014, 08:25:59 am
Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
Because people may have the right to choose independance or not. Like in Tchecoslovakia, or in Scotland soon. If they want to leave, let them go, don't try to kill them and call them "terrorist".

If the same people live in 2 differents countries, like east and west germany, they have the right to join if they choose this way.

It seems pretty much more reasonable than making war to maintain artificial borders.
But you DO understand, that only convulated russian media has the numbers, where a majority wants to leave? Most of the pools before the whole BS russia caused said, that a MINORITY wanted to leave, even in those regions. So your argument is moot. What now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 30, 2014, 09:52:17 am
Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
Because people may have the right to choose independance or not.

What an irony. Ukraine wants to get independent from Russia and Russia doesn't let it. Why don't you see it like that? :rolleyes:
Speaking about Russia and rights is a mauvais ton. Once again, hello Chechnya.

Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
If the same people live in 2 differents countries, like east and west germany, they have the right to join if they choose this way.
:lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 30, 2014, 10:00:13 am
Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
Because people may have the right to choose independance or not. Like in Tchecoslovakia, or in Scotland soon. If they want to leave, let them go, don't try to kill them and call them "terrorist".

It seems pretty much more reasonable than making war to maintain artificial borders.
But its not choosing independance. Tchecoslovakian countries are independent, Scotland will be independent. Donetsk will not be independent. It will be highly dependant on Russia. Infact it wont be a country at all, it will just be a Russian province.

Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
If the same people live in 2 differents countries, like east and west germany, they have the right to join if they choose this way.
But they couldnt choose. People were willing to get themselves killed or spend rest of their lives in prison to escape East and go to West Germany. The only people that were happy in the East were the ones who were rich and werent bothered by all the totalitarianism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 30, 2014, 11:58:00 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 30, 2014, 12:40:11 am
So the true faces appear. This was never about justice or truth. We knew RF was lying, and you knew it probably even better. (Still you defend Putin's actions)

People in here honestly feel it's right and good that Russia serves herself pieces of Ukraine.

Can you tell my WHY this is ok with you? Vovka, Tovi, Butan?


Something new happened recently? I am at a loss.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:23:57 pm
Quote from: Tibe on August 30, 2014, 10:00:13 am
But its not choosing independance. Tchecoslovakian countries are independent, Scotland will be independent. Donetsk will not be independent. It will be highly dependant on Russia. Infact it wont be a country at all, it will just be a Russian province.
But they couldnt choose. People were willing to get themselves killed or spend rest of their lives in prison to escape East and go to West Germany. The only people that were happy in the East were the ones who were rich and werent bothered by all the totalitarianism.

At the end of communism they could remain independant but they choose to reunite their country. Like Crimea people did with russia...
Tcheck republic and Slovakia are not fully independant as they are part of EU and receive massive financial help. Their main commercial partnership is Germany like Russia is for the Donbass. Independance does not mean autarcy.



Full interview of french fighters in Donbass


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 30, 2014, 12:54:58 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 30, 2014, 12:40:11 am
(click to show/hide)
lol why do you even bother asking me if I was one of the officers of the drz in 1st strategus. When we supplied the sea raiders rs and strangers with troops and weapons to fight the templars )))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 30, 2014, 12:57:22 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 12:58:50 am
Because people may have the right to choose independance or not. Like in Tchecoslovakia, or in Scotland soon. If they want to leave, let them go, don't try to kill them and call them "terrorist".

If the same people live in 2 differents countries, like east and west germany, they have the right to join if they choose this way.

It seems pretty much more reasonable than making war to maintain artificial borders.

Well, Scotland and ČSSR have asked at first before they have tried an armed revolt.
The Germanyland thing, both countries had the intention for a unification written down in their constitutions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 01:08:20 pm
Each country have his own history and culture. But what are you supposed to do when you face a violent nationalist government (led in power by riots) ? Ask gently the permission ?
 Even in Scotland the english government is very agressive toward independantist, but they won't send troops if scottish choose to leave.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on August 30, 2014, 01:17:06 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 30, 2014, 01:08:20 pm
Each country have his own history and culture. But what are you supposed to do when you face a violent nationalist government (led in power by riots) ? ...

any proofs for mobs against the population in the east?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 30, 2014, 03:34:59 pm
Quote from: Mala on August 30, 2014, 01:17:06 pm
any proofs for mobs against the population in the east?

You mean if there is pro-Kiev vs pro-Rus tensions in Ukraine? Of course there is.

Predominantly anti pro-Rus in Ukraine controlled territory, and anti pro-Kiev in rebel controlled territory.



Quote from: Tovi
It seems pretty much more reasonable than making war to maintain artificial borders.

All borders are artificials, people fight for them in protests or in war, in this case, war.
As I've said in the past, if Maidan hadnt been able to overthrow the government, and the unrest didnt die off, there would have been probably a civil war under the same circumstances.
Poroshenko and Yanukovitch have that similar trait that all politicians shares: they fight to preserve their power, in this case to preserve his entire territory instead of accepting to lose some.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on August 30, 2014, 06:14:42 pm
Was watching news when I heard this:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/29/putin-reminds-world-that-russia-is-one-of-the-leading-nuclear-powers-and-its-best-not-to-mess-with-us/

Yea, even If he stresses it, he'd never actively use them. Self Preservation is much to strong and his oligarchs wouldn't let it go that far.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Maksimus on August 30, 2014, 06:40:10 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 30, 2014, 06:14:42 pm
Was watching news when I heard this:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/29/putin-reminds-world-that-russia-is-one-of-the-leading-nuclear-powers-and-its-best-not-to-mess-with-us/

Yea, even If he stresses it, he'd never actively use them. Self Preservation is much to strong and his oligarchs wouldn't let it go that far.
I'm not sure in it. Oligarchs are nothing for Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 30, 2014, 06:48:45 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on August 30, 2014, 06:14:42 pm
Was watching news when I heard this:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/29/putin-reminds-world-that-russia-is-one-of-the-leading-nuclear-powers-and-its-best-not-to-mess-with-us/

Yea, even If he stresses it, he'd never actively use them. Self Preservation is much to strong and his oligarchs wouldn't let it go that far.

The actual quote:
Quote
“Thank God, I think no one is thinking of unleashing a large-scale conflict with Russia. I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers,” Putin told the group of school-aged children on Friday.

Nothing to stress about.

His declarations were more geared toward preparing the young to conventional warfare, while saying the possible enemies know they shouldnt try to make them do this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 31, 2014, 12:11:24 am
he speaks as true terrorist  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on August 31, 2014, 12:47:37 am
Jason Statham? Special Mission?  Now it serious.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 31, 2014, 01:28:55 am
Quote from: Butan on August 30, 2014, 06:48:45 pm
The actual quote:
Nothing to stress about.

His declarations were more geared toward preparing the young to conventional warfare, while saying the possible enemies know they shouldnt try to make them do this.

In other words "Even we know full well the only thing that allows us to continue our bullshit is those nukes"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 31, 2014, 02:11:34 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 31, 2014, 01:28:55 am
In other words "Even we know full well the only thing that allows us to continue our bullshit is those nukes"

You think without those nukes there would be open war already?
Unlikely to say the least.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 31, 2014, 01:54:58 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 31, 2014, 02:11:34 am
You think without those nukes there would be open war already?
Unlikely to say the least.

My bet is that without those nukes the RF wouldn't even exist. Actually the history of the whole world would be completely different, but you could say the same of any event from the past so it doesn't really make sense to discuss  that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 31, 2014, 06:07:34 pm
Rare footage of Ukraine government officials secretly moving to oppress Russians: http://coub.com/view/333x7
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on August 31, 2014, 07:51:13 pm
The mousquetaires again !  :D But listen to what they say. I can't say they are neutral, but you can't call this russian propaganda.Their testimony is from the battlefield, if it was different from "propaganda" I think they'd come back in France.



1) Ukraine army is demoralized
2) They aim civilian targets
3) They receive instructors from Nato
4) There is no formal military help from Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on August 31, 2014, 08:40:47 pm
(click to show/hide)
My, my, isn't that Tovi, the guy, who, some time ago, was condemning "The West" for sending in mercenaries to aid Ukraine (who, "mysteriously", never appeared :rolleyes: ) and is now gleefully cheering actual, present mercenaries... fighting against Ukraine.
H Y P O C R I S Y - can you spell it? Rhetorical question, of course you can't.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 31, 2014, 09:58:40 pm
Quote from: Tovi on August 31, 2014, 07:51:13 pm
The mousquetaires again !  :D But listen to what they say. I can't say they are neutral, but you can't call this russian propaganda.Their testimony is from the battlefield, if it was different from "propaganda" I think they'd come back in France.



1) Ukraine army is demoralized
2) They aim civilian targets
3) They receive instructors from Nato
4) There is no formal military help from Russia

Bullshit. I can tell you firsthandly that nothing of mentioned by you is true. I spoke personally to like 15 soldiers/officers who came back or got wounded.

1) Most of them don't speak good about Ukrainian Generals but they're not demoralized
2) Never happened and never would happen. I would smashed your face to a bloody mess for such bullshit if you were next to me. Fucking brainless animal.
3) Just not a single one instruction from NATO. Nobody even heard about any NATO instructors or mercenaries.
4) Everyone, literally everyone from those mentioned 15 said that they were fighting mostly people from Russia, the majority of people who were neutralized by them were citizens of Russian Federation.

I have a bunch of people whom I know for a long time fighting currently on the East of Ukraine. Everyone says that artillery fires from the territory of Russian Federation, and they actually complain about it because they can't fire back. So shut your fucking mouth you piece of fuck, you're really getting annoying with your crap so that I want to beat the shit out of you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 31, 2014, 10:30:38 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 31, 2014, 09:58:40 pm
Bullshit. I can tell you firsthandly that nothing of mentioned by you is true. I spoke personally to like 15 soldiers/officers who came back or got wounded.

1) Most of them don't speak good about Ukrainian Generals but they're not demoralized
2) Never happened and never would happen. I would smashed your face to a bloody mess for such bullshit if you were next to me. Fucking brainless animal.
3) Just not a single one instruction from NATO. Nobody even heard about any NATO instructors or mercenaries.
4) Everyone, literally everyone from those mentioned 15 said that they were fighting mostly people from Russia, the majority of people who were neutralized by them were citizens of Russian Federation.

I have a bunch of people whom I know for a long time fighting currently on the East of Ukraine. Everyone says that artillery fires from the territory of Russian Federation, and they actually complain about it because they can't fire back. So shut your fucking mouth you piece of fuck, you're really getting annoying with your crap so that I want to beat the shit out of you.
Dave do you think that national guard especially batalion Aidar didn't shot civilians? I don't say about ukranian army but maybe. About russian artillery, I think that they did it, but I can say that ukranian army also fired on the territory of Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on August 31, 2014, 10:50:16 pm
Quote
Dave do you think that national guard especially batalion Aidar didn't shot civilians?

Nicko, do you think that national guard, especially batalion Aidar has heavy armament, especially artillery?
Small clarification, I'm sure that our army shot civilians, that happenes when your enemy hide behind civilians and shoot at you. But our army didn't aim at civilians. I think the difference is clear.
Quote
I can say that ukranian army also fired on the territory of Russia.

Do you have any idea why? Or is it just good tradition for neighbors of Russia to fire on its territory, started by Finland in 39?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on August 31, 2014, 11:04:16 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on August 31, 2014, 10:30:38 pm
Dave do you think that national guard especially batalion Aidar didn't shot civilians? I don't say about ukranian army but maybe. About russian artillery, I think that they did it, but I can say that ukranian army also fired on the territory of Russia.

I have nor friends neither even people I know fighting in National Guard, those mentioned in the last post are from regular army. But I highly doubt it, first of all as Serr mentioned - these battalions don't have any heavy weaponry. Second even if there are retards in National Guard (and there are, idiots and bastards are everywhere, you can't avoid it) there are also decent soldiers and officers who wouldn't let it.

About artillery: I didn't hear any single proven fact of Ukrainian military forces shooting towards the territory of Russia or maybe you consider Donetsk and Lugansk as Russian territory already. On the other hand I heard from those mentioned people about constant shootings, sometimes during multiple hours a day.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on August 31, 2014, 11:09:21 pm
The one with moustache on video is french neochocolate chip cookie !

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on August 31, 2014, 11:20:09 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 31, 2014, 11:04:16 pm
I have nor friends neither even people I know fighting in National Guard, those mentioned in the last post are from regular army. But I highly doubt it, first of all as Serr mentioned - these battalions don't have any heavy weaponry. Second even if there are retards in National Guard (and there are, idiots and bastards are everywhere, you can't avoid it) there are also decent soldiers and officers who wouldn't let it.

About artillery: I didn't hear any single proven fact of Ukrainian military forces shooting towards the territory of Russia or maybe you consider Donetsk and Lugansk as Russian territory already. On the other hand I heard from those mentioned people about constant shootings, sometimes during multiple hours a day.
If national guard doesn't have any heavy weaponry then who fires the living houses, busstops and roads? Batalion Aidar robbed civilians, OSCE said it. About facts there is some near borders where russian journalists were fired, that was on russian territory. But I also heard from militaries that there is some bombs that flew to the territory of Russia, maybe by mistake.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 31, 2014, 11:32:52 pm
Dave, its good to hear your testimony, but saying "I asked my friends and they said:..." isnt equal to "there is no X thing happening".
Tovi presented a video where few foreign mercenaries that also gave their own opinion on what they see/hear/think.

You think your friends are better than those guys at stating the truth?


I think DonNicko is the much closer to the truth: as you said Dave, you cant avoid idiots in the army, but I'm pretty sure there is a few "unruly groups" in your army that are known for being "over the top idiots". I dont know any other name than Azov battalion, now DonNicko add Aidar battalion. How many irregulars far-right extremists are used by Ukraine government? I dont know, but there is, and they arent fighting by the rules.
I think except those irregular extremists, and extreme nutcases, there must not be any direct civilian shooting, but what is sure is that everyone is more or less fighting in civilian areas and it always means casualties.


It is known that Ukraine already fired on the territory of Russia, I dont believe its useful to try to deny it, as much as Russia having fired onto Ukraine.
Pretty sure there is some "alleged foreign artillery fire" that are just baseless accusations too, its hard to tell who fires who when it comes from 10km away!
The scale of the military interference is still not precisely known, it seems its not big enough to expose to direct retaliation from one side or the other, but there is always the threat of escalation.

Add on top the information war, and then "what the hell is happening exactly" is what everyone ask first before clinging to their good old reflex of west VS east.



Please Tovi dont be irrespectful to Ukraine showing videos of people fighting against it and being happy about it.
Dave dont become angry on your keyboard its not useful.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 01, 2014, 12:17:44 am
OMFG. Guys..

You are being fed propaganda from a state that have ALWAYS fed the population lies since almost 100 years.

Why on earth do you suddenly believe in it now? When RF population have a long history of NOT believing it?

There is no more NeoNa*z*is in UKR than there are in Russia, and those that are in UKR are mostly anti Russian, because they feel SORE AFTER RUSSIA HAS FUCKED THEM IN THE ASS FOR CENTURIES. They are young, they had enough, they are not intelligent, and they join the toughest most masculine group there is, where they can fight for Ukrainian freedom, and hate gays at the same time. It's not very hard to understand why.

meanwhile in Russia:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login



......

When an actual witness who lives in Ukraine, who has personal friends in UKR army comes out to tell what he heard, you say he's further from the truth than your RT truth or Pravda??

Wtf is wrong with you guys?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 01, 2014, 07:13:31 am
Quote
You think your friends are better than those guys at stating the truth?

I think pretty much everyone is better at stating the truth than guys who said that they follow Dugin's ideas

Quote
I think DonNicko is the much closer to the truth: as you said Dave, you cant avoid idiots in the army, but I'm pretty sure there is a few "unruly groups" in your army that are known for being "over the top idiots". I dont know any other name than Azov battalion, now DonNicko add Aidar battalion. How many irregulars far-right extremists are used by Ukraine government? I dont know, but there is, and they arent fighting by the rules.

There are more volunteers batallions, but Azov is the only one with right-wing ideology. Also, as we said before, none of them has artillery - they can't shell cities.

Quote
It is known that Ukraine already fired on the territory of Russia, I dont believe its useful to try to deny it, as much as Russia having fired onto Ukraine.

Really? Why? I saw proofs that russian territory was shelled, but nothing that would make me think that it was done by Ukraine.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 08:24:38 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on August 31, 2014, 09:58:40 pm
Bullshit. I can tell you firsthandly that nothing of mentioned by you is true. I spoke personally to like 15 soldiers/officers who came back or got wounded.

 Среди этих друзей нет случайно Ничепарук Вячеслава Леонидовича? ))

Quote from: Thomek on September 01, 2014, 12:17:44 am
When an actual witness who lives in Ukraine, who has personal friends in UKR army comes out to tell what he heard, you say he's further from the truth than your RT truth or Pravda??
Wtf is wrong with you guys?
I like your faith in men. The man ran into difficulties in the first place comes up with reasons for their failures. So instead of collective farmers and miners appear "professional commandos of Russia" (look at those 10 who are caught, most of them signed a contract a month ago). I do not think that psychologically healthy person iwill tell how they bombed residential areas (and most likely each artillery crew once got shelled civilian , because all artillery since Soviet times and high probability of error due to the lack of training of recruits, for example, only because of the air temperature range with the same angle of pickup may differ by 1 km.) not sure but reports of "shelling phosphorous bombs" came a month after the first shelling. (in fact it's probably illumination shells, which were used as sighting). Prior to this are targeting with live ammunition (paradox but these lights have caused the same damage as the battle).

That is I mean, if one day, a ne.o-Na.zi skinhead nig.ger catch you in a dark alley, will smash your face and fucke.d hard u in the ass,
it is likely that you will tell your friends the following: you protected the girl from the bandits and then after you have had a cool sex.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 09:11:03 am
This is the sad reality and pretty much sums up what I think:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/opinion/arm-ukraine-or-surrender.html?referrer=&_r=0

And for the record - I think West cannot allow another defeat  :|

You know, after this shit putler made up - either one has to be a moron-sheep-die-hard-russian-imperialist or a coward or one should simply wake up and say "enough is enough" to your government. The fact, that I don't see this happening is speaking volumes.

Also, any of the "informed ones" care to explain, how russia is "not intervening", but is explaining to Ukraine that it should start "discussing novorussia statehood" (btw - what the fuck is that? they stated their nationality obviously, whats with the sudden "new" statehood?)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 09:16:13 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 09:11:03 am
This is the sad reality and pretty much sums up what I think:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/opinion/arm-ukraine-or-surrender.html?referrer=&_r=0

And for the record - I think West cannot allow another defeat  :|

You know, after this shit putler made up - either one has to be a moron-sheep-die-hard-russian-imperialist or a coward or one should simply wake up and say "enough is enough" to your government. The fact, that I don't see this happening is speaking volumes.
When the Russian Federation will come to your country, it's your fault, you are too often used the word "Putler"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 09:24:10 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 09:16:13 am
When the Russian Federation will come to your country, it's your fault, you are too often used the word "Putler"
Well at least you capitalize it... I have a hard time capitalizing russia or putler now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 09:27:01 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 09:24:10 am
Well at least you capitalize it... I have a hard time capitalizing russia or putler now.
its not me its google, i write "россия" and "путлер"  :lol:

oh shit 1:37  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on September 01, 2014, 09:31:36 am
Quote from: Thomek on September 01, 2014, 12:17:44 am
meanwhile in Russia:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Wtf is wrong with you guys?
silly
It's a Russian Marsh., just bunch of nazzy idiots, tsar's fans and other strange people  even football hooligans and Restrukt don't support them. They have one day for their shit, waving flags and shouting stuff and nothing more. Why not? They have opportunity to show their opinion. Democracy lol!
And nobody will cry like  a pussy "ohhh look at them nаzi nаzi nаzi"

If you want learn about real russian chocolate chip cookie, not that clowns with flags,  you better read about Dmitry Borovikov, Schultz88, Lincoln88, NSS. They did real shit.  guess where they now? 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 09:44:53 am
Quote from: Yarl on September 01, 2014, 09:31:36 am
silly
It's a Russian Marsh., just bunch of nazzy idiots, tsar's fans and other strange people  even football hooligans and Restrukt don't support them. They have one day for their shit, waving flags and shouting stuff and nothing more. Why not? They have opportunity to show their opinion. Democracy lol!
And nobody will cry like  a pussy "ohhh look at them nаzi nаzi nаzi"

If you want learn about real russian chocolate chip cookie, not that clowns with flags,  you better read about Dmitry Borovikov, Schultz88, Lincoln88, NSS. They did real shit.  guess where they now?

This text you wrote... replace "russian" with "any other state" (INCLUDING Ukraine), correct some names/references... and you get a pretty much representative description of situation of fringe-right elements in almost EVERY society, where freedom of expression is more-or-less tolerated. Ofc there are differences and some government are more lenient than others and some would argue, that russian government is one of the MORE lenient,  but I can't argue one way or another, because I don't know. :rolleyes:

HAVING SAID THAT - do you know any other nation in Europe, who would invade another country "to protect russianits compatriots"? I know only one. Last one, which tried this almost 70 years ago, caused WW2. How do you feel about belonging to a nation, which may cause WW3?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 10:48:39 am
:mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 01:27:39 pm
In putlers russia - russia does not get excluded from G8. Its simply the fact, tha the other 7 "partners" did not show up...
http://ria.ru/politics/20140901/1022238293.html

Also - a nice description of all the BS, which is being caused in Ukraine outlined in a speech almost a YEAR prior to actual events:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-29/moscow-strategists-view-world-as-war-theater . And then putler stands up and straight up lies to his sheep-people, who then proceed to rejoice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 01:58:46 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 01:27:39 pm
In putlers russia - russia does not get excluded from G8. Its simply the fact, tha the other 7 "partners" did not show up...
http://ria.ru/politics/20140901/1022238293.html

Also - a nice description of all the BS, which is being caused in Ukraine outlined in a speech almost a YEAR prior to actual events:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-29/moscow-strategists-view-world-as-war-theater . And then putler stands up and straight up lies to his sheep-people, who then proceed to rejoice.
do u really read all dat shitty articles whta u post here? it soo many letters  :P and no one pictures  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 02:02:21 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 01:58:46 pm
do u really read all dat shitty articles whta u post here? it soo many letters  :P and no one pictures  :(
I read the second one, it was interesting :)

The first was in kirilica and the heading was all I read :D Its still was funnier than your youtube video :P  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 03:02:29 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 02:02:21 pm
I read the second one, it was interesting :)

The first was in kirilica and the heading was all I read :D Its still was funnier than your youtube video :P  8-)
omg and its was really interesting for u?!?! time to talk about ur sex live!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 03:04:52 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 01, 2014, 03:02:29 pm
omg and its was really interesting for u?!?! time to talk about ur sex live!
Time for  "yo mama" joke now:

"Thats not what your moma said" :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 01, 2014, 03:19:44 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 09:11:03 am
This is the sad reality and pretty much sums up what I think:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/opinion/arm-ukraine-or-surrender.html?referrer=&_r=0


Ukraine already asked and received money, equipment. Mainly US and IMF, mainly cold cash, and no weapons, but that would not be surprising if the cash was used to buy war gear, and the equipment given to soldiers.
There is also alleged presence of military advisors in Ukraine, and I've read a few times that they could have received technology to help fight against the rebels.

It will be harder for some to accept this possibility, than Russia being involved etc, but it is real that Ukraine is already being armed... it could become more "openly" armed in the near future but it would only be a step up in the direct confrontation, not really a new thing.



If you think the bankrupted Ukraine is fighting alone against evil Russian backed rebels, its time to wake up :P




Quote from: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 09:11:03 am
And for the record - I think West cannot allow another defeat  :|

I think thats you saying your opinion here  :wink:  and one of the crucial point of the east vs west mentality: geopolitical motived confrontations that are unfortunately backed by the people of both side because of the "cold war honor".
This, is the sad reality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 01, 2014, 03:47:52 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 01, 2014, 03:19:44 pm

Ukraine already asked and received money, equipment. Mainly US and IMF, mainly cold cash, and no weapons, but that would not be surprising if the cash was used to buy war gear, and the equipment given to soldiers.
There is also alleged presence of military advisors in Ukraine, and I've read a few times that they could have received technology to help fight against the rebels.

It will be harder for some to accept this possibility, than Russia being involved etc, but it is real that Ukraine is already being armed... it could become more "openly" armed in the near future but it would only be a step up in the direct confrontation, not really a new thing.

If you think the bankrupted Ukraine is fighting alone against evil Russian backed rebels, its time to wake up :P
They did receive the loans, but I believe the main funding source for this war for now is the additional 1.5% tax increase, which was done recently. As for military instructors, etc - I believe the scale of these things is ANYTHING, but sufficient. And scale matters in this case. 10 guys coming from NATO to work in ATO HQ is inadequate. On the other hand - I do not know the situation, but there might be enough potential in the current Ukraine officer corps to handle this, so this brings to another point - technical support. Like NVG stuff, FLIRS, AT weapons. Light weapons - I believe are plentifull in Ukraine, modern heavier weapons - I do not know, but knowing the state of our own army - those modern pieces are expensive and thus - not readily available.

In addition - what I would like to see and I think is technically and politically feasible (AND I'm ready to waste my tax money on this) is full blown surveillance of separatists via NATO monitoring capabilities (drones, satelites, radio monitoring, etc.) coupled with broad sharing of this data by passing it to Ukraine forces.

Quote from: Butan on September 01, 2014, 03:19:44 pm
I think thats you saying your opinion here  :wink:  and one of the crucial point of the east vs west mentality: geopolitical motived confrontations that are unfortunately backed by the people of both side because of the "cold war honor".
This, is the sad reality.
Cold war story is that Ukraine is a brotherly nation to russia, where do they get the anti-east mentality from... I WONDER.

Lets play a history game. There was a country No1, whose part was thickly inhabited by "nationals" of Country No2. Country No2 decided decided that it needs to protect its nationals withing Country No1 and annexed part of it. When the leader of Country No2 felt no significant consequences from other countries due to this annexation - he continued to do what ever he wanted, which ended up in a world war.

And the game is: NAME THE COUNTRIES INVOVED.

I fully understand (AND SUPPORT) diplomacy (even if I don't look like this), but there is this one joke, which pretty much sums up what is happening now: don't bring a knife to a gunfight. There is another applicable joke too: a word and a gun is much stronger than just a word.

I'm baffled at one thing: russia has mocked west idea of "doing diplomacy" again, again and again. They blatantly lied, tricked, screwed over - and you still believe, that ONLY TALKING will resolve this? I do not believe that "ONLY TALKING" will be enough and yes this is my opinion, which I form based on what I see. That is why I'm saying, that more than talking needs to be done and on sufficient scale. If that does not happen - I believe I need to move somewhere away from putlers russia, because I failed to capitalize both of these names one time too many.

Oh, and in order NOT to keep this so gloomy and so that Vovka would not be overly concerned about sex life of others:
http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2f5phz/lavrov_russia_is_not_excluded_from_the_g8_its/ Comments deliver!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 01, 2014, 05:17:05 pm
Quote
Russia is not excluded from common sense, it just that common sense didn't show up there.
:lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 01, 2014, 09:01:35 pm
Quote
I believe the scale of these things is ANYTHING, but sufficient. And scale matters in this case.

The scale is hard to read since those informations are not readily available. Its like trying to count ukrainian rebels, russian mercenaries, russian soldiers  :wink:
On the fact itself its pretty well known, but only on internet, I've never been aware of it through the medias. Still, you dont have to dig hard to find that Ukraine has been granted no string attached loans through various western controlled groups.
What do you think a country at war on the brink of chaos will use it for? Even if the money was followed, it would still increase the national budget which will in turn allow for increase in military spending, giving Ukraine a heads up in the current war.

I agree with your statement that equipment and military advisors might be scarce or uncommon, but what I wanted to tell is that it simply exist.
It naturally shows support for Ukraine of the various big actors of the western world. Ukraine is not alone and the proxy war is already a two side battle between east and west. An unbalanced proxy war? Certainly. At least right now.
The few first timid gifts are dated mars 2014... Political/economical/indirect military support is not new.

They may increase the support yet, and become more serious with helping Ukraine, with more transparent military solutions (NATO principally), if they decide so. That I do not deny.


Quote
In addition - what I would like to see and I think is technically and politically feasible (AND I'm ready to waste my tax money on this) is full blown surveillance of separatists via NATO monitoring capabilities (drones, satelites, radio monitoring, etc.) coupled with broad sharing of this data by passing it to Ukraine forces.

Why would they spend trillions of dollars when they can just use lies and deceit like everyone else? Its almost free!  :P



Quote
That is why I'm saying, that more than talking needs to be done and on sufficient scale.

(click to show/hide)



If you believe that Russia trustmeter is any lower than most of the lying sons of a bitch we all call government, you are in your right to be incredibly naive.
Diplomacy can and will be done with Russia or the war will simply continue until someone drop the gauntlets.

Negotiations are already ongoing for the best part of the conflict anyway, I dont see the use in denying.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 01, 2014, 09:39:42 pm
Some people are really far away from the reality. What equipment are you talking about? There is not a single assault rifle used by NATO in the hands of Ukrainian soldier. There is not a single NATO APC, tank, helicopter or anything else. The west is very discreet in this question. And with all the NATO weapons you need NATO ammunition which Ukraine doesn't have. So all your bullshit is like Tovi's logic:

Tovi: It's Jerzy Dziewulski, known Polish military instructor, he's commanding Ukrainian army
- : But it's not Jerzy Dziewulski, it's a known Ukrainian general
Tovi: Ok, but Jerzy Dziewulski could be there, Poland is interested in it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 02, 2014, 11:00:26 am
@Butan
There is 2000km border between russia and Ukraine, OSCE observers are in 2 of those. putler and lavrov and their puppet media brazenly say "OSCE IS MONITORING OUR BORDER, they report no armed support, thus there is none". Are you still naive enough to believe this? Even after russia refused to allow for greater monitoring of its borders from russian side (and thats documented in the proceedings of the meeting in OSCE HQ)?

Again - I wanted you to play this game with me, but you somehow casually skipped it ;) I already have zero expectations to hear anything reasonable from our resident russian supporters, but still - "I have a dream", as one guy said it in a speech...

There was a country No1, whose part was thickly inhabited by "nationals" of Country No2. Country No2 decided that it needs to protect its nationals withing Country No1 and annexed part of it. When the leader of Country No2 felt no significant consequences from other countries due to this annexation - he continued to do what ever he wanted, which ended up in a world war.

And the game is: NAME THE COUNTRIES INVOVED.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 02, 2014, 11:45:34 am
Take it with a grain of salt but it just sounds too probable he actually said it...

Putin told Barroso he could 'take Kiev in two weeks' (http://euobserver.com/tickers/125429)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 12:18:23 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2014, 11:45:34 am
Take it with a grain of salt but it just sounds too probable he actually said it...

Putin told Barroso he could 'take Kiev in two weeks' (http://euobserver.com/tickers/125429)

it was more of a "if I wanted to, I would have taken Kiev for two weeks" but it so boring so better use " I want take Kiev and will do it for 2 weeks, right after strategic nuclear pinpoint strikes"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 02, 2014, 12:27:10 pm
Yeah he said that. Lost contact with reality tbh. Luckily for him, there are other parties involved who won't be so eager to watch Russia going down big style even if they aren't exactly allies. If NATO pwns Russia that sends the clear message to other "superpowers" they could be next if they don't follow instructions. And no one wants to be belittled and controlled. Believe that's the main reason there's no world wide conflict, rather than nuclear weapons. Soldiers can be stupid at times and following orders but I find it hard to believe any of them would push the button on nuclear attack when told by superiors. Happened in WWII because those dudes probably didn't exactly know what they were carrying in their planes.

Not even sure that Putin realize this isn't him vs the rest of world but rather Russia and the likes vs organized western world called NATO. He's probably delusional enough at this point to think "he'll pwn them all by himself, Governator style". But no matter how delusional he is, Russians won't turn his back on him. Not because he's particularly capable or awesome or anything positive really but because they are Russians. If his own kin, rich criminals who are now called oligarchs in attempt to preserve their fortune, try to replace Putin with someone western friendly, we could see history repeating and their heads on the Red Square (another Bolshevik like revolution). People who live good and fruitful life can't understand how miserable people feel, you can't rationalize it. Majority people in Russia live bad life and are super poor and can't afford decent living. Only thing they have left at this point is that thing of the past, where they were considered superpower everyone feared. They will sacrifice their lives and lives of their children if someone takes that away from them. They don't even need Putin for that, if he fails they'll find another one.

In recap, Putin might be madman but ordering nuclear arsenal to fire won't go through because there are still rational people on the top who won't agree just like were during Cuban missile crisis. Even soldiers won't do that, despite their indoctrination. They live better than average life in Russia. But milions of jobless and desperate people, give them the red button and world will be over in a second. That is what west should fear.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 01:32:06 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 02, 2014, 12:27:10 pm
Yeah he said that. Lost contact with reality tbh. Luckily for him, there are other parties involved who won't be so eager to watch Russia going down big style even if they aren't exactly allies. If NATO pwns Russia that sends the clear message to other "superpowers" they could be next if they don't follow instructions. And no one wants to be belittled and controlled. Believe that's the main reason there's no world wide conflict, rather than nuclear weapons. Soldiers can be stupid at times and following orders but I find it hard to believe any of them would push the button on nuclear attack when told by superiors. Happened in WWII because those dudes probably didn't exactly know what they were carrying in their planes.

Not even sure that Putin realize this isn't him vs the rest of world but rather Russia and the likes vs organized western world called NATO. He's probably delusional enough at this point to think "he'll pwn them all by himself, Governator style". But no matter how delusional he is, Russians won't turn his back on him. Not because he's particularly capable or awesome or anything positive really but because they are Russians. If his own kin, rich criminals who are now called oligarchs in attempt to preserve their fortune, try to replace Putin with someone western friendly, we could see history repeating and their heads on the Red Square (another Bolshevik like revolution). People who live good and fruitful life can't understand how miserable people feel, you can't rationalize it. Majority people in Russia live bad life and are super poor and can't afford decent living. Only thing they have left at this point is that thing of the past, where they were considered superpower everyone feared. They will sacrifice their lives and lives of their children if someone takes that away from them. They don't even need Putin for that, if he fails they'll find another one.

In recap, Putin might be madman but ordering nuclear arsenal to fire won't go through because there are still rational people on the top who won't agree just like were during Cuban missile crisis. Even soldiers won't do that, despite their indoctrination. They live better than average life in Russia. But milions of jobless and desperate people, give them the red button and world will be over in a second. That is what west should fear.
u drunk again? in the midle of the day!?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 02, 2014, 01:34:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 12:18:23 pm
it was more of a "if I wanted to, I would have taken Kiev for two weeks" but it so boring so better use " I want take Kiev and will do it for 2 weeks, right after strategic nuclear pinpoint strikes"
Maybe you should look up the word "could" in a dictionary. Just saying...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 02:17:55 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2014, 01:34:27 pm
Maybe you should look up the word "could" in a dictionary. Just saying...
would suggest it to Google as a better translation! thank you old man!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 02, 2014, 02:19:09 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 02, 2014, 12:27:10 pm
In recap, Putin might be madman but ordering nuclear arsenal to fire won't go through because there are still rational people on the top who won't agree just like were during Cuban missile crisis.
You're really far removed from reality if you really think that. The order would definitely go through, even if they have to shoot the first one to refuse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 02:32:09 pm
So Putin and his team of criminals (aka the oligarchs), whose wealth (paper money, factories, ships), will burn first in a nuclear mushroom, eager to unleash a nuclear war, then hide in a bunker, where they will be killed and the government seized the most authoritative officer of Service security, you idiots? and who's brainwashed.

 I understand that for some of the greatest value of is a collection of baseball cards, and must give credit to the next 30 years, war is not the worst end of life, but those who have received billions wants world war  in the last turn. I have mean a real world war, and not WW2 like
 in any case, start dig bunkers and learn the duck and cover song for children  :P

P.S. can not wait for Friday day sanctions! it's as if someone fuck.ed your girlfriend and you're offended at him and do not talk a year.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 02, 2014, 03:18:37 pm
Nah. I said that oligarchs aren't happy with current situation and that they could try coup. Putin seems very distanced from everyone else, at least that's what reports say. Oligarchs don't want nuclear war but they could welcome conventional one where they could earn money. Russians, on the other hand can only lose in conventional war and would rather see earth inhabitable then losing a little bit of dignity they have left.

Situation is pretty tight in many post soviet countries. But no one can try a revolution before Russians start it. You don't understand your own history very well if you think that your people will bend indefinitely and not snap at one point. Russians have always lived differently, which is something most westerners don't understand. But try to enslave them, take their dignity and national pride... and you got yourself in war with them. Many tried, many failed.

And oligarchs are nothing but soviet era criminals who were helped by foreign powers to steal everything millions of people worked for decades. Putin and his band of oligarchs are indeed romanticizing idea of Tzarist Russia, but I'm sure Russian people are still communists at heart. They fully support what Putin is currently doing because they see it in another light. He's doing as retaliation to sanctions, but they see it as communist style lock down which is what they basically want. They've seen what kind of life capitalism brought them and realized it ain't any better then what they had during Soviet era.

Hard to explain that to Russian nationalist who's probably well situated, living in Moscow city center, playing games and studying on prestigious university. But those less fortunate who have nothing to look at because everything their grandparents worked their asses is stolen by group of thieves, they do understand this very well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 02, 2014, 04:48:21 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 02:32:09 pm
So Putin and his team of criminals (aka the oligarchs), whose wealth (paper money, factories, ships), will burn first in a nuclear mushroom, eager to unleash a nuclear war, then hide in a bunker, where they will be killed and the government seized the most authoritative officer of Service security, you idiots? and who's brainwashed.

 I understand that for some of the greatest value of is a collection of baseball cards, and must give credit to the next 30 years, war is not the worst end of life, but those who have received billions wants world war  in the last turn. I have mean a real world war, and not WW2 like
 in any case, start dig bunkers and learn the duck and cover song for children  :P

P.S. can not wait for Friday day sanctions! it's as if someone fuck.ed your girlfriend and you're offended at him and do not talk a year.

My god, shits getting serious if even Vovka becomes serious...

On a side note - there definitely IS a reason, why launching a nuclear weapon requires multiple levels of authorization and agreement. E.g.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Arkhipov. I really hope russia just packs her shit and goes back to repressing unhappy population INSIDE it, instead of exporting their BS to other countries. But yea... hopes are what paves road to hell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 02, 2014, 05:04:14 pm
I wonder if anything similar is going to pop up soon in areas like Kazakhstan or so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 02, 2014, 05:06:43 pm
The Barroso quote, well i think this was taken out of context. It sounds more like "if we really support the terrorist, then we would capture Kiev in two weeks.".

Anyway, the whole affair sounds like the cold war now. Every faction says that the others are the aggressor and everyone insist that their view is right.
Hell, even my president starts to build up the new/old concept of the enemy.


PS:
Aww, crap Fidel has joined the other side. No more vacations in Cuba i guess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 05:28:58 pm

obay to civil defenc worker bitch!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 02, 2014, 05:36:07 pm
oww, thats another problem for me, russian humour.
most of the time it looks quite aggressiv but sometimes i wonder if they only try to be funny.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 02, 2014, 05:43:19 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 02, 2014, 05:36:07 pm
oww, thats another problem for me, russian humour.
most of the time it looks quite aggressiv but sometimes i wonder if they only try to be funny.
I know one russian humor:
Once stalin was asked by visiting foreign journalist, whether he knows any jokes about himself made by russian people. He said - OFCOURSE I do, I actually collect them. I have several labor camps in Siberia full of them!  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 02, 2014, 05:43:46 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 02, 2014, 05:36:07 pm
oww, thats another problem for me, russian humour.

Its like the russians themselves.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 02, 2014, 06:41:06 pm
Classic russian humour is awesome you ignorant tards.

The problem here is not russians or their culture I think. I have a very good impression of them. The problem is their criminal leadership.

WWIII with nukes won't happen. Neither will a large scale conventional war. MAD is still in effect, and nobody wants that. Not even Kim Jong is that stupid.

Putin is just playing a patient high-stakes poker game with the west. He won't back off until the west shows soldiers on the ground and willingness to act. It's only a mock poker game however, because no one are willing or able to pay the full price.

Now:

Playing a pokergame is easy for 1 man with all the power, but near impossible for democratic institutions like EU.  Always someone to veto decisions, everything takes too long to decide, and secrets are hard to keep, so he has an advantage there.

TBH though, Ukraine and Russia don't mean much to EU, except for the gas, which will be replaced from other sources soon enough. Putin pushes RF towards China(!?) which they have far less in common with than EU..

Well.. at least Putin can make the west hate Russia again, and get more support at home to secure his life-long presidency. RF can become Cuba, blame the west for all their problems while they suffer silently in poverty, watching TV at home with their vodka bottle, watching reportages of the sick and morally corrupted west..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 02, 2014, 07:05:16 pm
in criminal russia even cartoons characters make you cry


and about
Quote from: Molly on September 02, 2014, 11:45:34 am
Take it with a grain of salt but it just sounds too probable he actually said it...

Putin told Barroso he could 'take Kiev in two weeks' (http://euobserver.com/tickers/125429)
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.novayagazeta.ru%2Fnews%2F1686537.html&edit-text=
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 02, 2014, 07:08:08 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 02, 2014, 06:41:06 pm
Classic russian humour is awesome you ignorant tards.

The problem here is not russians or their culture I think. I have a very good impression of them. The problem is their criminal leadership.

WWIII with nukes won't happen. Neither will a large scale conventional war. MAD is still in effect, and nobody wants that. Not even Kim Jong is that stupid.

Putin is just playing a patient high-stakes poker game with the west. He won't back off until the west shows soldiers on the ground and willingness to act. It's only a mock poker game however, because no one are willing or able to pay the full price.

Now:

Playing a pokergame is easy for 1 man with all the power, but near impossible for democratic institutions like EU.  Always someone to veto decisions, everything takes too long to decide, and secrets are hard to keep, so he has an advantage there.

TBH though, Ukraine and Russia don't mean much to EU, except for the gas, which will be replaced from other sources soon enough. Putin pushes RF towards China(!?) which they have far less in common with than EU..

Well.. at least Putin can make the west hate Russia again, and get more support at home to secure his life-long presidency. RF can become Cuba, blame the west for all their problems while they suffer silently in poverty, watching TV at home with their vodka bottle, watching reportages of the sick and morally corrupted west..

The west can't exactly refute any accusations of corruption, given the decades long policeman of the world mentality of the US/EU.  Do I think the west is retarded enough to start a conventional war over this?

Yes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 02, 2014, 07:25:30 pm
if we earn enough money with it, probably yes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 02, 2014, 08:07:14 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 02, 2014, 07:08:08 pm
Do I think the west is retarded enough to start a conventional war over this?

Yes.

It's all about natural resources (oil, gas). The US need them to handle their economy. They can only achieve economical growth if they have these resources.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 02, 2014, 08:19:40 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 02, 2014, 05:06:43 pm
Anyway, the whole affair sounds like the cold war now. Every faction says that the others are the aggressor and everyone insist that their view is right.

You are 6 months late to the party.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 02, 2014, 08:23:25 pm
Actually, China is behind all of it!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 02, 2014, 08:25:02 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 02, 2014, 08:07:14 pm
It's all about natural resources (oil, gas). The US need them to handle their economy. They can only achieve economical growth if they have these resources.

That's true, which makes it funny as the US isn't even tapping into its own domestic supply and would instead continue to use oil as an excuse to invade other countries.

As the meme goes: 'murica
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 02, 2014, 08:28:20 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 02, 2014, 08:07:14 pm
It's all about natural resources (oil, gas). The US need them to handle their economy. They can only achieve economical growth if they have these resources.
Clearly only US needs them to handle their economy and reach growth dont they? EVERYBODY needs it, even you and your family and probably your children aswell. The only ones who dont, live in rain forests and hunt with spears. Its been pretty much said that Russia has agents in many alternative energy projects to hinder them so they can crank up the oil prices without fear of them finding alternatives. Bullshit? Quite possible yea, but everyone has a hidden agenda when it comes to resources. No country is or ever will be truly straight when it comes to this. Its not only the eeeeeevil resourcehogging US. Its everybody.

Russia needs resources even more than US. Sure its got a gigantic domestic supply, but it produces NOTHING, but natural resources. Its a country 100% running on oil and gasmoney. US has other sources beond that. Id say they need to manipulate the market as much as the US. If I was the theorist Illuminati type of person id even say that US and Russia secret cooperation to manipulate the markets would fair some pretty great profits for both of them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 02, 2014, 08:31:11 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 02, 2014, 07:25:30 pm
if we earn enough money with it, probably yes.

After that war, west wouldn't be what it is now. Population decline due to war and enemies showing their true face would change the structure of western civilization. Could bring it closer to rest of the world where population boom is still a thing and things are done in more direct, blunt way. Immigration served a crucial role in post WWII period and allowed the western Europe and USA to pursue human rights while rebuilding. Aftermath of WW2 could repeat again, but who knows, it could end up like the fall of Rome. It's your gamble. Just don't forget that Germans and rest of western Europe were the oppressed party that defeated the Empire and didn't want to negotiate, just to burn and pillage.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 02, 2014, 09:53:18 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 02, 2014, 08:19:40 pm
You are 6 months late to the party.
Naa, six month before was more like "sigh, my fellow has a fit again. just ignore it, it will be over quite soon."
Now it is more like "No, we don´t each other." and after a while (and some propaganda) it becomes "the threat from the east."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 02, 2014, 09:55:53 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 02, 2014, 09:53:18 pm
Naa, six month before was more like "sigh, my fellow has a fit again. just ignore it, it will be over quite soon."
Now it is more like "No, we don´t each other." and after a while (and some propaganda) it becomes "the threat from the east."

More afraid of US/EU than I will ever be of Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 02, 2014, 09:59:11 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 02, 2014, 09:53:18 pm
Naa, six month before was more like "sigh, my fellow has a fit again. just ignore it, it will be over quite soon."
Now it is more like "No, we don´t each other." and after a while (and some propaganda) it becomes "the threat from the east."


Maybe publically, but its not hard to assume that everyone were having the same kind of speech behind closed doors right from the start.
The population is ready now, the events unfurled, the badboy diplomacy built up to a reasonable height, so the time is ripe for more suitable efforts  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 02, 2014, 10:49:33 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 02, 2014, 09:55:53 pm
More afraid of US/EU than I will ever be of Putin.

it does not matter which one you choose, everyone is lying. on the other hand us/eu has the better PR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 03, 2014, 12:33:51 am
Quote from: Mala on September 02, 2014, 10:49:33 pm
it does not matter which one you choose, everyone is lying. on the other hand us/eu has the better PR.

The better everything really. Look, free blowjobs!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 03, 2014, 02:03:39 am
Russia not selling gas/oil to the west will not work. As long as world supply is constant it's just a matter of logistics and the price rise will be minimal. They have to sell it somewhere or they fuck themselves.. Then those they sell to will buy less from the saudis, who will then sell more to the US etc etc..

But I do fear this winter might be cold as fuck, living in Poland.. perhaps very expensive too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 03:12:59 am
Expensive life in Poland? You're always free to visit your homeland, as a reminder what word expensive truly means. When you guys plan to fix those roads? they are really in a bad shape for such a rich country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 03, 2014, 03:30:18 am
Oh Leshma..  :rolleyes:

So you were there? :D Beautiful nature right? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 03, 2014, 11:54:25 am
A question to residents of Ukraine - how likely is it, that Ukraine would decide to give up these "new" nations for their more-or-less true independence?
this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141946/alexander-j-motyl/putins-trap
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 03, 2014, 12:22:10 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 03, 2014, 11:54:25 am
A question to residents of Ukraine - how likely is it, that Ukraine would decide to give up these "new" nations for their more-or-less true independence?
this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141946/alexander-j-motyl/putins-trap


According to you and other like-minded people, NEVER! Crush them for democracy sake! Russia must not gain power at any cost! :mrgreen:

According to history on modern wars, it heavily depends on Ukraine national morale (media+politic+military results) and possible external help.
From where I'm standing, it seems like the rebellion is gaining hold, if the help to Ukraine doesnt increase and Russia continue help the rebellion, its possible they greatly expand the rebel controlled zones. Then its possible this prospect/observation will push Ukraine to change from the old overly enthusiast "we will end war in one week" to a new "we must negotiate and stop this".

Except if the Ukraine is ready for the war of his life and go balls to the walls, its like your previous article Kuujis: if its not armed, it will surrender to terms.


That was a pretty great article by the way, +rep, advise anyone to read. Always with a pinch of salt of course  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on September 03, 2014, 12:56:30 pm
"funny" how eu/nato/usa powers with their shittalk about economic interests in the east etc. allowed this crisis to go so far. when putler invaded crimea they were just sitting with hands folded.

now peace will be achieved only when more russians than putin can handle will come back to russia in body bags. this is however quite problematic, since nato, eu, usa are not even able to deliver ukrainians proper weapons (while that french dickhead keeps finishing his mistral ships for russians at the same time. hell i'm ashamed for my prime minister, but i'm still lucky i'm not french).

so the other more probable alternative is, that ukrainians will give up their east (with majority of ukrainian population) to the russians. and it will end exactly this way (like in georgia). sacrifice a bit of ukraine so we can all sleep well in eu again. such is the world we live in today...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 03, 2014, 01:09:59 pm
Quote
A question to residents of Ukraine - how likely is it, that Ukraine would decide to give up these "new" nations for their more-or-less true independence?
this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141946/alexander-j-motyl/putins-trap

I would agree, and I think most population would agree as well, but there would be many who won't agree with such decision, they would likely start protesting against it and Russia would support them behind the scenes to destabilize situation.
So I'm not sure it would work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 03, 2014, 01:31:05 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on September 03, 2014, 12:56:30 pm
"funny" how eu/nato/usa powers with their shittalk about economic interests in the east etc. allowed this crisis to go so far. when putler invaded crimea they were just sitting with hands folded.

now peace will be achieved only when more russians than putin can handle will come back to russia in body bags. this is however quite problematic, since nato, eu, usa are not even able to deliver ukrainians proper weapons (while that french dickhead keeps finishing his mistral ships for russians at the same time. hell i'm ashamed for my prime minister, but i'm still lucky i'm not french).

so the other more probable alternative is, that ukrainians will give up their east (with majority of ukrainian population) to the russians. and it will end exactly this way (like in georgia). sacrifice a bit of ukraine so we can all sleep well in eu again. such is the world we live in today...
You DO realize, that the same "sacrifice part of europe, so that in the end we can sleep more peacefully" was already tried and it did not work. I'm not sure we need another case.

On the other side - Ukraine (however I wish differently) would have an EXCEPTIONALLY hard fight if they intend to take-on russia, and even if I would support them wholeheartedly - its up to them to decide what they want/need more: hard fight ahead, 2 ruined regions with lots of strings attached or a real hope (some maybe would say SEMI-real) for true independence from russia.

The key issue with giving up the regions that I see is lack of price inflicted on russia itself. The problem with "inflicting" that price is that Ukraine has to continue sacrificing its people and spilling blood, which is not something I am or anyone else should be comfortable asking of Ukraine. That's why I'm genuinely interested in knowing how and what Ukrainians think. I remember recent article on public oppinion in Ukraine about whether ATO should continue - it was against it. Not sure how/if it changed now, that its clear that this is not ATO, but anti-russia-war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 01:54:43 pm
Quote from: serr on September 03, 2014, 01:09:59 pm
I would agree, and I think most population would agree as well, but there would be many who won't agree with such decision, they would likely start protesting against it and Russia would support them behind the scenes to destabilize situation.
So I'm not sure it would work.

So, they are already trying to solve it like in Yugoslavia. Split the country... listen, when Yugoslavia split only countries that did well are those who were richest part of Yugoslavia. Namely, Slovenia and Croatia. In case of Ukraine that won't work well because it seems that western Ukraine has been super poor for decades. You can believe in fairy tales that Europe (Poland and Germany) will inject money to make your country stronger but most likely they'll use western Ukraine as a slave. At best, you can look at status Baltic countries have atm, but in 20 years from now.

As I said at the start of this, Ukraine is fucked either way. Hopefully you guys make it for the better but I don't see how. At least its not your own fault all of this happened, it happened because of geopolitical position of your country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on September 03, 2014, 02:00:20 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 01:54:43 pm
At least its not your own fault all of this happened, it happened because of geopolitical position of your country.

easy to say for me, but keep repeating that to yourselves and you'll be fucked up for next 10 generations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 02:05:33 pm
It's the fact. Only way to change it is to invent barrier from Gothic games and surround your own country with it. Or become exceptionally good at negotiations, but we're talking about mainly Slavic people here...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 03, 2014, 04:04:06 pm
"No one has the intention to build a wall." -Walter Ulbricht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Ulbricht), 1961

Ukraine has.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 03, 2014, 04:19:32 pm
I'll be honest - I am following the whole conflict with interest since the beginning, probably cuz it's gonna be in the history books in 10 years. Actually though, as long as my life is not touched by consequences out of the conflict, I do not really care. And I'd bet we all think they same, except for those few Ukranians amongst us. Well, let's say at least 80% of us think the same way if they're honest to themselves and I guess that's just normal human nature. I don't feel ashamed to admit it. I just consider myself lucky to be born where I was...

Nonetheless, I obviously hope that somehow the Ukraine manages to get out of this with the head up. How? There are too many possible scenarios, it's not even worth discussing them all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 03, 2014, 05:21:43 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 01:54:43 pm
You can believe in fairy tales that Europe (Poland and Germany) will inject money to make your country stronger but most likely they'll use western Ukraine as a slave.

This is such a ridiculous lie that pro-russians serve.

IDK what will happen if RF domination would continue, but it is a fact that the baltics, poland, and all the eastern block countries that have turned westwards do much much better than those who stayed under RF domination like Belarus and Ukraine.

This is a fact. And if you go there, you will quickly understand why it is like this. Wasteful, absurd, criminal and corrupt as fuck societies. 10-fold worse than say Poland, and 100-fold worse than the average western country. (In my impression)

One of the reasons Maidan started was that they see over the border that Poland is doing much much better than Ukraine.. They are fed up with "Russian way". And I don't blame them.

In the east, the RF propaganda TV and has made them believe that "Russian way" is better than "Kiev way" while in fact they are the same in its absolute corrupt incompetence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 03, 2014, 05:39:20 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 01:54:43 pm
At best, you can look at status Baltic countries have atm, but in 20 years from now.
And what is that?

Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2014, 04:19:32 pm
I'll be honest - I am following the whole conflict with interest since the beginning, probably cuz it's gonna be in the history books in 10 years. Actually though, as long as my life is not touched by consequences out of the conflict, I do not really care. And I'd bet we all think they same, except for those few Ukranians amongst us. Well, let's say at least 80% of us think the same way if they're honest to themselves and I guess that's just normal human nature. I don't feel ashamed to admit it. I just consider myself lucky to be born where I was...
I care, though. I think that is common among those living in countries bordering Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 03, 2014, 06:35:22 pm
Granted. I admit, I forgot about the bordering countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 03, 2014, 07:06:51 pm
Quote
So, they are already trying to solve it like in Yugoslavia. Split the country... listen, when Yugoslavia split only countries that did well are those who were richest part of Yugoslavia. Namely, Slovenia and Croatia. In case of Ukraine that won't work well because it seems that western Ukraine has been super poor for decades. You can believe in fairy tales that Europe (Poland and Germany) will inject money to make your country stronger but most likely they'll use western Ukraine as a slave. At best, you can look at status Baltic countries have atm, but in 20 years from now.

I wouldn't mind to split the country if it helped to avoid bloodshed. Unfortunately, it won't. Even if people in Ukraine will accept it without making another revolution, it will be matter of time before rebels try to get Kharkiv or Zaporizhia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 03, 2014, 07:17:08 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 03, 2014, 01:31:05 pm
On the other side - Ukraine (however I wish differently) would have an EXCEPTIONALLY hard fight if they intend to take-on russia, and even if I would support them wholeheartedly - its up to them to decide what they want/need more: hard fight ahead, 2 ruined regions with lots of strings attached or a real hope (some maybe would say SEMI-real) for true independence from russia.


Ukraine taking on Russia is not even possible scenario imo. They are barely managing their own civil war with Russia's few thousands extra mercenaries/soldiers (own NATO estimates).
With current balance of power they could not blitzkrieg deeper than 10km into Russia before being completely destroyed by the massed Russian presence at the Ukraine-Russia border, and then Georgia scenario would happen again and they would have a legitimate reason to directly intervene and occupy all border regions and seek very beneficial terms.

Russia has very good defensive position, unlimited access to rebel controled territory and overwhelming forces.
Without external help I dont see anyone from Kiev govermnent ordering direct confrontation... except if they intended to sacrifice themselves to create a media scandal, like when they ordered the garrisoned Ukrainian soldiers in recently annexed Crimea to not surrender at all cost, which didnt work at all.


The "worst" they could do is continue the war while being slowly expanded upon by the rebels, until NATO/EU/US think its time we stop the east threat getting closer to their own border and find some casus belli to throw at them.
The problem is, like with the Crimea situation, national morale is hardly controllable, the country may just stop fighting after a time whatever the orders if the organisation/supply/morale drop too low.
The reports of surrenders in Ukraine shows that it already happened several times locally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 08:02:42 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 03, 2014, 05:39:20 pm
And what is that?

Living standard somewhere in between Serbia and Croatia. You probably had it really bad during Soviet era if you consider current position as decent. Only thing I've heard that Baltics have on par with prosperous countries is internet speed. Which is probably the reason why so many of you are here. You guys dream to be like Greece one day.

Edit: Well, compared to Ukraine you're the thing I guess. Ukraine will bounce to 500 euros average wage few years after this end and they become EU candidate, but prices with double so they won't real feel any benefit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 03, 2014, 08:14:58 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 08:02:42 pm
Living standard somewhere in between Serbia and Croatia. You probably had it really bad during Soviet era if you consider current position as decent. Only thing I've heard that Baltics have on par with prosperous countries is internet speed. Which is probably the reason why so many of you are here. You guys dream to be like Greece one day.

Edit: Well, compared to Ukraine you're the thing I guess. Ukraine will bounce to 500 euros average wage few years after this end and they become EU candidate, but prices with double so they won't real feel any benefit.

For your average Ukrainian, the point of EU integration is mobility.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 03, 2014, 08:17:27 pm
Until that moment come, they will be 50 years old. Unless you're talking about illegal immigrants?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on September 03, 2014, 08:21:30 pm
Quote from: Corwin on August 06, 2014, 12:03:23 pm
One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.



Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2014, 04:19:32 pm
I'll be honest - I am following the whole conflict with interest since the beginning, probably cuz it's gonna be in the history books in 10 years. Actually though, as long as my life is not touched by consequences out of the conflict, I do not really care. And I'd bet we all think they same, except for those few Ukranians amongst us. Well, let's say at least 80% of us think the same way if they're honest to themselves and I guess that's just normal human nature. I don't feel ashamed to admit it. I just consider myself lucky to be born where I was...

Nonetheless, I obviously hope that somehow the Ukraine manages to get out of this with the head up. How? There are too many possible scenarios, it's not even worth discussing them all.

Very sincere and very true. Exactly what I was talking about in this previous post. Just imagine this situation - your salary drops 10% because of economic war with Russia. Wouldn't many Germans blame the Government and goddamn Ukrainians for this? Wouldn't you pressure your Government to pressure Ukrainians to back down just so that situation returns to normal?

Do you believe the same thing would happen in Russia? I don't. Just ask any of them here.


One more thing. I don't think Russia would benefit the most if it would incorporate poor regions of Donbas and Lughansk. I think they would profit the most with federalization of Ukraine and installing blocking mechanism, like veto right for these "republics". That way they could block any step of Ukraine towards NATO and EU. Funny thing is, I think this is exactly what the West will pressure the Ukraine to do in the end, and Putin will come across as being generous for giving up on sovereignty of these regions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 03, 2014, 08:35:35 pm
That's not gonna happen in Germany tho - our nation's export is way too wide spread that "only" Russia could achieve this.
Only thing really that might hurt a little: Gas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 03, 2014, 09:16:15 pm
http://www.youtube.com/user/UKRAINETODAYLive/playlists
add in favorite russophobes

no prapoganda here only facts! wonder why its called "ukrania today" and not "evil russia today"
found 1 video without tag "Russian invasion" and get a chocolate bar!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 03, 2014, 09:32:43 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 03, 2014, 09:16:15 pm
found 1 video without tag "Russian invasion" and get a chocolate bar!

Wait, Crimea wasn't a Russian invasion?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 03, 2014, 10:10:14 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 03, 2014, 09:32:43 pm
Wait, Crimea wasn't a Russian invasion?
so it's chnnel about crimea oh kk then
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 04, 2014, 09:53:20 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 03, 2014, 10:10:14 pm
so it's chnnel about crimea oh kk then
Your jokes are better than this... dodging. Now you sound butthurt, like those RT dumbfucks, who got called proper liars on live air during their attempt to interview Ukraine Today producer  :mrgreen:

Also - THIS - I have... no words... so much truth there... I kept skimming the text and could not understand - is this for real or just Irony at its best: http://dearputin.com/

Also - the sheeps may rejoice - no weapons are crossing the border: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/747948 (please search for the word "both" in the text) and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMmNHZetNn0 is just something that was formed from captured Ukrainian army stuff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 04, 2014, 12:44:19 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 04, 2014, 09:53:20 am
Your jokes are better than this... dodging. Now you sound butthurt, like those RT dumbfucks, who got called proper liars on live air during their attempt to interview Ukraine Today producer  :mrgreen:
Also - THIS - I have... no words... so much truth there... I kept skimming the text and could not understand - is this for real or just Irony at its best: http://dearputin.com/
Also - the sheeps may rejoice - no weapons are crossing the border: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/747948 (please search for the word "both" in the text) and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMmNHZetNn0 is just something that was formed from captured Ukrainian army stuff.
in place Russian / Ukrainian generals I would sell old heavy vehicles to DNR and LNR, the place for dat shit is scrapyard but now it can be sold under the guise of "so no one would know." At the site of Bulgaria and Poland, etc. I would sell my old technique to Ukraine, under the same pretext.
more than 700 people held captive by the DNR, on last week surrendered in groups of 70-100 people, life is more expensive than tanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nessaj on September 04, 2014, 01:22:08 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 01:34:07 pm
This war is not for US. This war is not for the EU. Want to help? Want to stop? It will only make worse. Don't interfere. This is a war where there are no boundaries between Nations, religions, ideas. This is not a war person from Western Europe. You want to explain everything logically.. But there is no rationalism. Your worldview and rational approach no longer works.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 04, 2014, 02:09:01 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 01:34:07 pm
This war is not for US. This war is not for the EU. Want to help? Want to stop? It will only make worse. Don't interfere. This is a war where there are no boundaries between Nations, religions, ideas. This is not a war person from Western Europe. You want to explain everything logically.. But there is no rationalism. Your worldview and rational approach no longer works.

I don't even
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on September 04, 2014, 02:11:32 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 01:34:07 pm
This war is not for US. This war is not for the EU. Want to help? Want to stop? It will only make worse. Don't interfere. This is a war where there are no boundaries between Nations, religions, ideas. This is not a war person from Western Europe. You want to explain everything logically.. But there is no rationalism. Your worldview and rational approach no longer works.

3deep5me
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 04, 2014, 02:30:42 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 01:34:07 pm
This war is not for US. This war is not for the EU. Want to help? Want to stop? It will only make worse. Don't interfere. This is a war where there are no boundaries between Nations, religions, ideas. This is not a war person from Western Europe. You want to explain everything logically.. But there is no rationalism. Your worldview and rational approach no longer works.
OR you and your sheep compatriots are morons for supporting putler and this bullshit he causes.

Choose: either you are "speshul" or a "moron sheep".

There is NOTHING special about a country and its people NOT wanting to "go dancing" with russia. The only SPESHUL thing here is idiots, who think "its none of your business, that I beat my girl friend". Go fuck yourself in your shit-hole and stay there.

</rant>
Thats how it looks when "I don't even" just does not sound strong enough...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 03:19:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 04, 2014, 02:30:42 pm
OR you and your sheep compatriots are morons for supporting putler and this bullshit he causes.

Choose: either you are "speshul" or a "moron sheep".

There is NOTHING special about a country and its people NOT wanting to "go dancing" with russia. The only SPESHUL thing here is idiots, who think "its none of your business, that I beat my girl friend". Go fuck yourself in your shit-hole and stay there.

</rant>
Thats how it looks when "I don't even" just does not sound strong enough...  :rolleyes:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 04, 2014, 03:32:15 pm
I'm shared between the "culture restricted" argument of Ivanich and the goodwill of the whole world trying to fix problems wherever they are.

But I dont doubt that if USA & allies intervene, its going to get far worse than today in terms of casualties; they are always the most war ready western states.
Even economically weak Europe might have a go if it manages to convince the population that the "menace can spread" like we heard in this topic a lot of times  :rolleyes:  when its definitely a slav issue*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 04, 2014, 03:34:46 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 03:19:47 pm
(click to show/hide)
You are not excused. I fucking hate reading kirilica, but this was definitely worth it! :)

Your "argument" that if the "victim of the rape would not resist peace would come quicker" is... well... "SPESHUL". Thus - I accept your choice, carry on.

Quote from: Butan on September 04, 2014, 03:32:15 pm
I'm shared between the "culture restricted" argument of Ivanich and the goodwill of the whole world trying to fix problems wherever they are.

But I dont doubt that if USA & allies intervene, its going to get far worse than today in terms of casualties; they are always the most war ready western states.
Even economically weak Europe might have a go if it manages to convince the population that the "menace can spread" like we heard in this topic a lot of times  :rolleyes:
Butan - history shows, that if the aggressor is appeased - he is not appeased and carries on. You do not believe that the "menace can spread", but I do not understand why. I believe in history lessons, which show, that NOT standing up to aggressor encourages him to continue, until its too late and shit REALLY hits the fan.
That speech Nessaj posted - its A LOT on the propaganda specter in its presentation style, but the content... lets just say, having seen how fighting for freedom happens and its results - I CAN relate to those ideas and even if the speech was 60 years ago - it still rings true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 04, 2014, 04:04:20 pm
Obama announces plan to send Air Force units, aircraft to Baltics (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/09/03/president-obama-lands-in-estonia-as-nervous-baltic-countries-demand-action/)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 04, 2014, 04:19:54 pm
Putin is actually russophob.

He obviously doesn't believe Russians are mature enough to properly govern themselves with real democratic measures and need a "strong hand which leads them". :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 04, 2014, 04:25:02 pm
If by "properly govern themselves with real democratic measures" you mean they won't to listen what Berlin and Washington order them, then you got that right. They are like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 04, 2014, 04:33:29 pm
Actually I just meant what I wrote, Leshma.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 04:48:40 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2014, 04:19:54 pm
Putin is actually russophob.

He obviously doesn't believe Russians are mature enough to properly govern themselves with real democratic measures and need a "strong hand which leads them". :D
Yeltsin tried to stop volunteers from Russia to Serbia... Yeltsin "resigned" after a year. Medvedev did not want to interfere in the internal Affairs of Georgia"... Medvedev put troops and was ready to attack Tbilisi... If Putin will not skip volunteers from Russia to Ukraine... the guards will skip volunteers from Russia to Ukraine. Putin can stand or at the head of this movement, or lying on the roadside.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 04, 2014, 04:53:21 pm
A Ukrainian friend of mine once told me,

"According to my experience there is no need to discuss with russians. They like the king and their position as a slave.
And they understand only strength. Just ignore russians. They are differ from us."  (His words.)

The English may be fractured but I find it full of wisdom.  Russians have never gotten rid of their need for the Tsar.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 04, 2014, 04:59:07 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 04, 2014, 03:32:15 pm
I'm shared between the "culture restricted" argument of Ivanich and the goodwill of the whole world trying to fix problems wherever they are.

But I dont doubt that if USA & allies intervene, its going to get far worse than today in terms of casualties; they are always the most war ready western states.
Even economically weak Europe might have a go if it manages to convince the population that the "menace can spread" like we heard in this topic a lot of times  :rolleyes:  when its definitely a slav issue*

LOL, in other words let us Russians and Putin do whatever we please without interference or else.  Trust us, all will be well.  What bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 04, 2014, 05:45:19 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 01:34:07 pm
This war is not for US. This war is not for the EU. Want to help? Want to stop? It will only make worse. Don't interfere. This is a war where there are no boundaries between Nations, religions, ideas. This is not a war person from Western Europe. You want to explain everything logically.. But there is no rationalism. Your worldview and rational approach no longer works.

Perfect example on how a person wants to sound wise but fails. Ivani4, everyone got it clear about your mental challenge, no need to remind it. Failing with English and then insulting me in Russian with so many mistakes and bad words in the text. Such an ultimate combo, what a shame.  :oops:

Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 03:19:47 pm
(click to show/hide)

I wish you guys could understand Russian.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 04, 2014, 05:50:35 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on September 04, 2014, 05:45:19 pm
I wish you guys could understand Russian.
they will soon ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 04, 2014, 06:02:50 pm
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 03:19:47 pm
(click to show/hide)
English language won't permit me to express myself fully (there are advantages to Russian, when it comes to swearing), so i'll just say that you are the fucking cancer, Ёбаныч.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 04, 2014, 06:29:34 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on September 04, 2014, 04:59:07 pm
LOL, in other words let us Russians and Putin do whatever we please without interference or else.  Trust us, all will be well.  What bullshit.

Sounds a lot like Americans and Obama.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on September 04, 2014, 07:01:46 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 04, 2014, 05:50:35 pm
they will soon ))
We have to protect russians on Brighton Beach :)


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 04, 2014, 07:59:26 pm
Quote from: Yarl on September 04, 2014, 07:01:46 pm
We have to protect russians on Brighton Beach :)

Hah I already posted that video.

We will have Red Alert 4 Live action, with Putin as the Premier.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 04, 2014, 08:01:52 pm
After report of the NATO summit with Ukraine: http://www.voanews.com/content/ukraines-poroshenko-gets-show-of-support-from-nato-leaders/2438328.html


Some important quotes:

Quote
The West has backed Kyiv with words and imposed economic sanctions against Moscow, but offered Ukraine only non-lethal military support after Russia annexed Crimea in March, and rebels, widely believed to be supported and supplied by Moscow, have risen up against Kyiv in the country’s east.
(click to show/hide)


Quote
Putin’s peace plan is to be discussed at talks in Friday in Minsk, Belarus, between representatives of the Ukrainian and Russian governments, pro-Russia rebels in Ukraine’s east and officials from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.


Quote
On the issue of lethal military assistance to Ukraine to help it counter what is seen as Russian aggression, NATO chief Rasmussen said at the summit that it was up to individual alliance members to decide whether to supply arms to Kyiv.


Cease-fire has already been accepted, will see in coming days if its respected.
Peace plan in the oven, heavily criticized/ignored by Ukraine/EU/US who are trying to negotiate better terms.
Economical sanctions increased, non-lethal military support to Ukraine increased, lethal military support to Ukraine allowed openly.


Kuujis wishes: check  :mrgreen:

Could be a turning point for the future of the conflict, because there is a door open for the globalization of the conflict (after the ceasefire) or for a political solution (god forbids! of course!).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 04, 2014, 08:22:46 pm
Everybody seems to be ready for conflict. Xant is absent because Finland is preparing for upcoming Russian invasion, our Baltic boys still can't believe it is happening. I have devised the "run to the hills far, far away" plan.

Did you know there are both Russian and American military bases less than 100 kilometers away? Guess where? :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 04, 2014, 08:27:22 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 04, 2014, 03:34:46 pm
Butan - history shows, that if the aggressor is appeased - he is not appeased and carries on. You do not believe that the "menace can spread", but I do not understand why. I believe in history lessons, which show, that NOT standing up to aggressor encourages him to continue, until its too late and shit REALLY hits the fan.
That speech Nessaj posted - its A LOT on the propaganda specter in its presentation style, but the content... lets just say, having seen how fighting for freedom happens and its results - I CAN relate to those ideas and even if the speech was 60 years ago - it still rings true.


Who would have thought that the world war 2 and the cold war, which greatly feeds your thoughts whether you know it or not, would have created the basis for such war enthusiasm.
If NATO members were not doing that bad economically (like most of the world) they would have practically jumped on Russia, but now that there is a firm and strong alliance of western nation it may just go to that, and everyone will be happy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 04, 2014, 08:31:38 pm
West always needs a boogeyman, same goes for eastern countries. If there was no boogeyman on "the other side", people could turn to themselves and see true bad boys that operate in their neighborhood. What I find hilarious are people who actually believe in lies both sides sprout to defend their actions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 05, 2014, 03:58:19 am
Quote from: Leshma on September 04, 2014, 08:31:38 pm
West always needs a boogeyman, same goes for eastern countries. If there was no boogeyman on "the other side", people could turn to themselves and see true bad boys that operate in their neighborhood. What I find hilarious are people who actually believe in lies both sides sprout to defend their actions.

Seriously?  You are really trying to say that Putin really hasn't murdered journalists, destroyed Chechnya, rigged elections to keep himself in power, stolen billions in public funds, used force to unilaterally change borders and steal territory of other countries through invasion?  Because I could have sworn he actually did those things which qualifies him to be someone to be afraid of for real and not as an invention to scare others.  BTW it's bogeyman. 

Quote from: Leshma on September 04, 2014, 06:29:34 pm
Sounds a lot like Americans and Obama.

No it doesn't.  And find something more clever than a mirrored comeback.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 05, 2014, 03:59:34 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 04, 2014, 05:50:35 pm
they will soon ))

You got your asses kicked in Red Dawn and you will again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 05, 2014, 07:43:58 am
Years ago, back in 2001 or something, when Putin did his first turn as President I already told everyone "That man is dangerous - you just wait...".
It feels odd that I actually am/was right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 05, 2014, 08:40:02 am
Quote from: Butan on September 04, 2014, 08:27:22 pm

Who would have thought that the world war 2 and the cold war, which greatly feeds your thoughts whether you know it or not, would have created the basis for such war enthusiasm.
If NATO members were not doing that bad economically (like most of the world) they would have practically jumped on Russia, but now that there is a firm and strong alliance of western nation it may just go to that, and everyone will be happy.

You skip your argumentation part. You believe, that just because there was a generation in western countries, which did not know war on their land, the history will not repeat itself. I do not feel this is sufficient to rebuke the lessons of the history... I'm anything but enthusiastic about the war, but you CAN'T ignore it and pretend, that a word will work well enough, where word and a gun ARE BOTH needed.

So your country guaranteed the safety and integrity of Ukraine. Now - you are were about to sell advanced warships to a country, which blatantly violated Ukraine's sovereignty. AND on top of that you are spouting shit like "Ukraine, please be nice and spread your legs further appart, because victim russia cant fuck you hard enough in all the holes to become content and good enough business partner again".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 05, 2014, 09:26:36 am
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2014, 07:43:58 am
Years ago, back in 2001 or something, when Putin did his first turn as President I already told everyone "That man is dangerous - you just wait...".
It feels odd that I actually am/was right.
even forecasters sometimes guessed right weather conditions, but u.... I think you have a gift, you're special, maybe you something different from everyone else
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 05, 2014, 09:28:45 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 05, 2014, 09:26:36 am
even forecasters sometimes guessed right weather conditions, but u.... I think you have a gift, you're special
I think it was rather obvious for people with at least half a brain - maybe that's the reason why you missed it :))))))))))

Title: Troll level : Russian Embassy
Post by: Panos_ on September 05, 2014, 01:42:04 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login



 :lol:


Title: Re: Troll level : Russian Embassy
Post by: Christo on September 05, 2014, 02:11:44 pm
Because postin in the already existing, 417 pages long thread would be too mainstream
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 05, 2014, 02:12:57 pm
’Putin is best thing we can have’ says Latvia mayor after Moscow visit (http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35514/#.VAmoH6MdPxS)

.-.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 05, 2014, 05:54:44 pm
He's a fucking embarrassment, but somehow maintains his position in Rīga by bribing old people with public transport tickets and also being the representative of the "russian" party (Rīga has close to a 50% Russian population). No matter that the city of Rīga has greater debt than the country, among other things.
 :|
Title: Re: Troll level : Russian Embassy
Post by: Kafein on September 05, 2014, 07:31:50 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on September 05, 2014, 01:42:04 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login



 :lol:

That's reminiscent of Soviet era propaganda actually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 05, 2014, 08:39:08 pm
At least they decided to stop killing each other, maybe now they will try to discuss the situation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 05, 2014, 08:44:44 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 05, 2014, 08:39:08 pm
At least they decided to stop killing each other, maybe now they will try to discuss the situation

Putin agreed on a ceasefire and insists on the OSCE to take care. Rasmussen: "Russia attacks the Ukraine"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 05, 2014, 09:03:32 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 05, 2014, 08:44:44 pm
Putin agreed on a ceasefire and insists on the OSCE to take care. Rasmussen: "Russia attacks the Ukraine"

Putin agreed on a ceasefire, so what? It's the "eastern ukrainian rebels" who need to stop shooting. Oh wait...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 05, 2014, 09:17:23 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 05, 2014, 08:44:44 pm
Putin agreed on a ceasefire

But no russians in ukraine, Why would putin agree to a ceasefire then?

Right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 05, 2014, 09:22:40 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 05, 2014, 05:54:44 pm
He's a fucking embarrassment, but somehow maintains his position in Rīga by bribing old people with public transport tickets and also being the representative of the "russian" party (Rīga has close to a 50% Russian population). No matter that the city of Rīga has greater debt than the country, among other things.
 :|

That's kinda normal for post soviet countries. Due to previously centralized power in capitol city, people migrate to the capitol leaving rest of the country in poor state. But capitol isn't actually producing any goods and therefore it spend more than it can earn. It's a vicious circle. Same is in here, Belgrade has higher debt than rest of the country combined. But life outside Belgrade is poor and young people migrate to capitol where they can hardly find a job and even if they find it, it is usually something that doesn't benefit country. No matter what people say, without actual production of goods there is no economical growth. That is why USA have so many troubles, they "outsourced" production to China and that is hurting their economy. There has to be balance between production and selling services. If majority of people aren't producing, economy suffers.Only city-states like Luxembourg can live like that. More people makes it less viable economic strategy.

Offtopic aside, didn't know about this guy Alexei Navalny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny). On the paper, seems like the solution for this conflict and long term solution for Russia. Unless he is something else, which can be devastating for Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 05, 2014, 09:35:32 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2014, 09:17:23 pm
But no russians in ukraine, Why would putin agree to a ceasefire then?

Right?
Right, he said so that he doesn't need to agree to a ceasefire because they are not a side of conflict. But he pushes Kiev to agree to ceasefire with separatists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 05, 2014, 09:38:11 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 05, 2014, 09:03:32 pm
Putin agreed on a ceasefire, so what? It's the "eastern ukrainian rebels" who need to stop shooting. Oh wait...

Quote from: Christo on September 05, 2014, 09:17:23 pm
But no russians in ukraine, Why would putin agree to a ceasefire then?

Right?

I must admit, I wrote it wrong. He proposed this plan. This plan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_LQ36yoK6A) was denied by Kiev.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 05, 2014, 10:01:30 pm
No worries our dear warmongering russian-sheep's - ceasfire will end next tuesday, even press conference with details is already planned.
https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/507912994542866433
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 05, 2014, 11:27:37 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 06, 2014, 10:26:40 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 05, 2014, 10:01:30 pm
No worries our dear warmongering russian-sheep's - ceasfire will end next tuesday, even press conference with details is already planned.
https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/507912994542866433
(click to show/hide)
No idea what it says tho :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 06, 2014, 11:13:38 am
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2014, 10:26:40 am
(click to show/hide)
No idea what it says tho :P
original post here

http://nsn.fm/press-center/narodnyy-front-novorossii-ot-peremiriya-k-gazovomu-soglasheniyu-dnr-s-rossiey.php

but u can keep fapping on fake
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: djavo on September 06, 2014, 11:15:30 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 06, 2014, 11:20:42 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 06, 2014, 11:13:38 am
original post here

http://nsn.fm/press-center/narodnyy-front-novorossii-ot-peremiriya-k-gazovomu-soglasheniyu-dnr-s-rossiey.php

but u can keep fapping on fake
What exactly in "no idea what is says tho" did you not understand? I merely followed up on what Kuujis posted w/o weighting it in any direction.

You seem pretty butthurt tbh. Are you butthurt?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 06, 2014, 12:16:21 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2014, 11:20:42 am
What exactly in "no idea what is says tho" did you not understand? I merely followed up on what Kuujis posted w/o weighting it in any direction.
You seem pretty butthurt tbh. Are you butthurt?
not yet  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 06, 2014, 01:33:32 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 05, 2014, 10:01:30 pm
No worries our dear warmongering russian-sheep's - ceasfire will end next tuesday, even press conference with details is already planned.
https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/507912994542866433

You mean the war of information is still going on despite military ceasefire? I have problems believing that!

Can someone translate this image (https://twitter.com/bishopk/status/507912872895471617) just to know what is written?




I wonder if Poroshenko and Putin think they are smarter than rest of the world when they do their little ping-pong diplomatic dance of:

- hey thanks Putin for ceasefire!
- no, thank separatist, I have nothing to do here!
- separatist? I only see russians!
- negotiate with your own people and leave me alone!


 :lol:



As it happens, unlimited ceasefire is also best way to reorganize and prepare further military operations. If any of the two sides wants to do just that, it will be very easy to begin the war anew.
The fact that rebels are already preparing propaganda in that angle and that NATO already prepared military supplies and special forces means that there is definitive chance peace doesnt come yet, or will be fragile!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 06, 2014, 04:20:41 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 06, 2014, 01:33:32 pm
(click to show/hide)
here u cn find original, so one troll copypaste it in wordoffice and changed red part to blue
http://nsn.fm/press-center/narodnyy-front-novorossii-ot-peremiriya-k-gazovomu-soglasheniyu-dnr-s-rossiey.php
Quote from: Original post
Пресс-центр
Народный фронт Новороссии: От перемирия к газовому соглашению ДНР с Россией
5 Сентября 2014
Народный фронт Новороссии: От перемирия к газовому соглашению ДНР с Россией
09.09.2014 Пресс-конференция представителей Народного фронта Новороссии
Во вторник 09.09.2014 в 13:00 в пресс-центре информационного агентства «Национальная служба новостей» состоится пресс-конференция на тему: «Народный фронт Новороссии: От перемирия к газовому соглашению ДНР с Россией»

В ходе пресс-конференции будут обсуждаться следующие вопросы:
• Как выполняется приказ Порошенко о прекращении огня армией Украины?
As Ukrainian army  comply with an Poroshenko order of the ceasefire
• Почему не выполняется приказ Порошенко о прекращении огня армией Украины?
Why Ukrainian army did not comply with an order Poroshenko Ceasefire
• Военная повестка дня: сводки с линий фронта
• Ситуация в населенных пунктах, перешедших под контроль ополчения
• Закулисье минских переговоров о прекращении огня
• Что такое Народный фронт Новороссии?
• Итоги переговоров ДНР и России о поставках газа

На эти и многие другие вопросы в ходе пресс-конференции ответят:
- Руководитель Исполнительного комитета Народного фронта Новороссии, лидер киевского Антимайдана Александр Зинченко;
- Лидер Харьковского сопротивления Константин Долгов.

Пресс-конференция состоится в пресс-центре информационного агентства «Национальная служба новостей» по адресу: ул. Народного Ополчения, д. 39, корп. 2.
Начало пресс-конференции в 13:00.
Интернет-трансляция пресс-конференции будет доступна на сайте www.nsn.fm
Аккредитация журналистов осуществляется по телефонам:
8 (495) 925 04 49
8 (916) 107 77 34


The smart one just checking this information on the site Press Room Popular Front of NewRussia, and those with half a brain just make retwitte and do repost on other sites.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 06, 2014, 04:37:57 pm
Y u no translate, dirty russian! :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 06, 2014, 04:46:15 pm
I mean, one of the separatists leader said in front of TV cameras:
"Sure, there are Russian soldiers fighting in our units. But those come here during their holidays and not as official troops."
 
Really? That's even more stupid than "Our trained para troopers accidentally crossed the border... despite their map, their compass and their GPS."  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 06, 2014, 05:38:13 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 06, 2014, 04:37:57 pm
Y u no translate, dirty russian! :twisted:
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnsn.fm%2Fpress-center%2Fnarodnyy-front-novorossii-ot-peremiriya-k-gazovomu-soglasheniyu-dnr-s-rossiey.php&edit-text=

 :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 06, 2014, 06:54:15 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2014, 04:46:15 pm
"Sure, there are Russian soldiers fighting in our units. But those come here during their holidays and not as official troops."


Could be again a "part in the conflict taken" type of translation which could have had a version of : "Sure, there are Russian fighting in our units. But those come here on their own during their freetime."
Because that sounds WAY too stupid to be true.



Quote from: Vovka on September 06, 2014, 05:38:13 pm
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnsn.fm%2Fpress-center%2Fnarodnyy-front-novorossii-ot-peremiriya-k-gazovomu-soglasheniyu-dnr-s-rossiey.php&edit-text=

 :twisted:

I dont get it, whats wrong in those headlines?


*Oh, missed your message end of page 418.
Betting people will still believe in the troll version months after.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 06, 2014, 07:29:02 pm
I'm sure these fascists are comfortable in the fact they have such lovely people on this forum supporting them, people like Molly, Kafeine, Kuujis and their ilk.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e3a_1410020331
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 06, 2014, 07:33:46 pm
Oh shit, that is Ad Hominem.
again ahaha

So rude
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on September 06, 2014, 07:35:28 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 06, 2014, 07:33:46 pm
Oh shit, that is Ad Hominem.
again ahaha

So rude
oh no you didn't...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 06, 2014, 08:26:29 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 06, 2014, 07:29:02 pm
I'm sure these fascists are comfortable in the fact they have such lovely people on this forum supporting them, people like Molly, Kafeine, Kuujis and their ilk.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e3a_1410020331
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 06, 2014, 08:58:31 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 06, 2014, 07:29:02 pm
I'm sure these fascists are comfortable in the fact they have such lovely people on this forum supporting them, people like Molly, Kafeine, Kuujis and their ilk.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e3a_1410020331
You want to make me cry? Because that's how you make me cry. BTW - you are a liar, why should ANYONE listen to you? But if you keep insulting my friends in Ukraine calling them naztees - I WILL CRY, I GUARANTEE IT!

Oh, and Butan - I know full well, that this might be a fake. Problem with that is that there is a bunch of journos, who got this message and somehow I do not feel like they would be tweeting it, if it was not from "usual" or "known" source or deserved significance due to some other reason. I take this with a pinchpile of salt anyway. Whole ceasefire business is not going to hold, because russians don't have Mariupol+land route to Crimea at the very least, and there is this guy http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/09/05/russian-ambassador-anticipates-liberation-of-mariupol-in-ukraine who says that these people need to be liberated... so.
Ces't la vie (pardon me french  :? ).

Oh, and some lying German MP obviously... can someone from Germany confirm, that she is a know liar please?
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-201/#4168
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 06, 2014, 09:10:19 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 06, 2014, 04:46:15 pm
Really? That's even more stupid than "Our trained para troopers accidentally crossed the border... despite their map, their compass and their GPS."  :lol:
Crossing a border isn't THAT hard to believe. Weird, yeah. Could be a training exercise, whatever. I mean, crossing a border... could happen. But they were 20km into Ukraine... which wouldn't happen. A few hundred meters? Sure. 20km? Nope... and I think the Russians said they weren't on a training exercise (=no GPS, maybe no map/compass) but were in fact a border patrol, which makes it even more lol.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 06, 2014, 09:47:39 pm
(click to show/hide)
Ukrains watch this video and say how brave soldiers of Ukraine
As for me what they did, I don't know what to say, old woman said that she endured WW2, but didn't see such...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Andswaru on September 06, 2014, 10:02:20 pm
She doesnt look old enough to have surivived ww2.... my granny looks alot older than her and she was only a child (8ish at the start) during ww2.
Smells like propaganda video too me.

P.S. Im completely pro no-one both sides are idiots.

Ukraine for believing Russia would let them leave their sphere of influence peacefully especially after Georgia showed Putin wasnt scared of hurting "international feelings".
Russia for been an international bad child again, knowing the US and the rest of the world needs there help in sanactioning countries like Iran and North Korea, so any sancations they suffer wont last too long post conflict so they can do as they please more or less if they are willing to bite the short term pain bullet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 06, 2014, 10:06:54 pm
Quote from: Andswaru on September 06, 2014, 10:02:20 pm
She doesnt look old enough to have surivived ww2.... my granny looks alot older than her and she was only a child (8ish at the start) during ww2.
Smells like propaganda video too me.
Of course they are russian actors
BTW my grandpa born before WW2 and he looks much better then she, gens?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 06, 2014, 10:08:45 pm
Are there any true Ukrainians left? I thought they all died during Holodomor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 06, 2014, 11:04:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 06, 2014, 09:47:39 pm
(click to show/hide)
Ukrains watch this video and say how brave soldiers of Ukraine
As for me what they did, I don't know what to say, old woman said that she endured WW2, but didn't see such...
WHAT exactly are you trying to justify or prove here? The fact, that if not for your fucked up sheep-nation, there would be no need for a war in a brotherly slav nation? Or the fact, that there are friggin idiots on both sides? Like... do I have to pull out the video about a women tied to a pole and beaten in broad daylight on bogus charges and then proclaim, that the wannabee rebels are "all animals" and russians are all idiots for supporting them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 06, 2014, 11:29:19 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 06, 2014, 08:58:31 pm
Whole ceasefire business is not going to hold, because russians don't have Mariupol+land route to Crimea at the very least, and there is this guy http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/09/05/russian-ambassador-anticipates-liberation-of-mariupol-in-ukraine who says that these people need to be liberated... so.
Ces't la vie (pardon me french  :? ).

I differentiate people giving their opinion on "what best could happen" and what will happen irl.
I guess very pragmatic military leaders think that a land route from Crimea to Russia would be very good, but there is so many parameters to include in the equation that I dont think it will happen 100% chance.

All a ceasefire need to hold is that both side wants it to hold bad enough, in this case I agree there is a lot of possibilities it doesnt but not only from Russia side IMO.
Since NATO summit its clear they are getting ready to kick some russians ass so why not use the pretext of a broken ceasefire to send fast deployable NATO force and repel/crush armed separatists up to the border with Russia and leave with Ukraine 100% in control?


On the singular case of Mariupol, I read that there is a lot of ethnic russian inside, so anything could happen, maybe a maidan or crimea scenario, or just continuation of civil war with expanded contested zone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 06, 2014, 11:31:17 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 06, 2014, 11:04:10 pm
WHAT exactly are you trying to justify or prove here? The fact, that if not for your fucked up sheep-nation, there would be no need for a war in a brotherly slav nation? Or the fact, that there are friggin idiots on both sides? Like... do I have to pull out the video about a women tied to a pole and beaten in broad daylight on bogus charges and then proclaim, that the wannabee rebels are "all animals" and russians are all idiots for supporting them?
There is nothing to prove here, I post what people say about their lives, and you start as always to shittalk. About proclaims, I thought you had already done them :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 07, 2014, 01:22:02 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 06, 2014, 11:31:17 pm
There is nothing to prove here, I post what people say about their lives, and you start as always to shittalk. About proclaims, I thought you had already done them :D
You know the sad part? Your posting looks like an attempt to say "but we had to intervene". And I lost you there, because thats BS of putlers order of magnitude.

Quote from: Butan on September 06, 2014, 11:29:19 pm
On the singular case of Mariupol, I read that there is a lot of ethnic russian inside, so anything could happen, maybe a maidan or crimea scenario, or just continuation of civil war with expanded contested zone.
I'm afraid, that after seeing how separatists fighting in the cities acted, neither local russians, nor ukrainians want ANYTHING to do with putlers ambitions and the war he caused.

On a side note - now that Mariupol is being attacked and comparing city defence to how separatists did that - I see one major difference - there is fighting NEAR the town, but not IN the town. Go figure I guess...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 07, 2014, 02:02:16 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 07, 2014, 01:22:02 am
I'm afraid, that after seeing how separatists fighting in the cities acted, neither local russians, nor ukrainians want ANYTHING to do with putlers ambitions and the war he caused.

What acts are you refering to?



Quote from: Kuujis on September 07, 2014, 01:22:02 am
On a side note - now that Mariupol is being attacked and comparing city defence to how separatists did that - I see one major difference - there is fighting NEAR the town, but not IN the town. Go figure I guess...

Mariupol is being attacked? I only read about skirmishes/shelling getting close to it and Ukraine reinforcing the city.
Especially since ceasefire, I think nothing big happened yet. If I'm wrong please share with me articles.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 07, 2014, 09:10:45 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 06, 2014, 09:47:39 pm
(click to show/hide)
Ukrains watch this video and say how brave soldiers of Ukraine
As for me what they did, I don't know what to say, old woman said that she endured WW2, but didn't see such...
Quote from: DonNicko on September 06, 2014, 11:31:17 pm
There is nothing to prove here, I post what people say about their lives, and you start as always to shittalk. About proclaims, I thought you had already done them :D
That is not what you're doing there.
You post some fancy video of an old lady saying something and then you comment on it in a weighted manner. "brave soldiers of Ukraine" is obviously sarcasm. So do not complain when people react with sarcasm too.
Besides, is it really so unthinkable that some TV unit came to her house and told her "Here, have 1000 Rubel and tell us something juicy about them." You really think she would say no?
She might be saying the truth, I won't deny that. Unfortunately neither of us actually knows.

All that leads to a "shove it up your ass"-situation, I guess. :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 07, 2014, 01:05:28 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 07, 2014, 09:10:45 am
That is not what you're doing there.
You post some fancy video of an old lady saying something and then you comment on it in a weighted manner. "brave soldiers of Ukraine" is obviously sarcasm. So do not complain when people react with sarcasm too.
Besides, is it really so unthinkable that some TV unit came to her house and told her "Here, have 1000 Rubel and tell us something juicy about them." You really think she would say no?
She might be saying the truth, I won't deny that. Unfortunately neither of us actually knows.

All that leads to a "shove it up your ass"-situation, I guess. :wink:
I had a little bit of sarcasm, it's true, it was made by ukranian journalist not for TV, there is no naazis in Ukraine but those were acting like them, and of course there will be no accusation from their government. Nice to see people who can't change anything in the mind, they believe what they prefer to believe. And this people call some others brainwashed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Zhyang on September 07, 2014, 02:16:39 pm
.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 07, 2014, 03:01:59 pm
Quote from: Zhyang on September 07, 2014, 02:16:39 pm
Can someone pls tell me whats going on ? Is there  a war incoming? Or already war?maybe a  summary?
war is over russia won
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 07, 2014, 03:11:18 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 07, 2014, 03:01:59 pm
war is over russia won

you mean the terrorist, russia is not involved.  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 07, 2014, 03:16:40 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 07, 2014, 03:11:18 pm
you mean the terrorist, russia is not involved.  :wink:

No, he meant the anti-fascists freedom fighters  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 07, 2014, 04:10:20 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 07, 2014, 03:11:18 pm
you mean the terrorist, russia is not involved.  :wink:
terrorists beat fascists, terrorist now russia, russia won XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 07, 2014, 04:24:34 pm
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftherussiantimes.com%2Fnews%2F12541.html&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftherussiantimes.com%2Fnews%2F12541.html&edit-text=)

Finland is Hong-Kong. Right.

They need to put down the Vodka
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 07, 2014, 04:48:22 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2014, 04:24:34 pm
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftherussiantimes.com%2Fnews%2F12541.html&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftherussiantimes.com%2Fnews%2F12541.html&edit-text=)

Finland is Hong-Kong. Right.

They need to put down the Vodka
Hahaha, this shows the level of Russian journalism perfectly. "Finland wants to join Russia." Uh... no.... it was a single member of the fourth biggest party sarcastically remarking that joining Russia would be as good as joining Nato. But hey, I guess FINLAND WANTS TO JOIN RUSSIA.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Elmuri on September 07, 2014, 04:56:39 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2014, 04:24:34 pm
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftherussiantimes.com%2Fnews%2F12541.html&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftherussiantimes.com%2Fnews%2F12541.html&edit-text=)

Finland is Hong-Kong. Right.

They need to put down the Vodka
Hmm I think the original article is from March 2013, just about big Finnish corporations and how they should invest in Russia and use the Russian market, not about being a part of Russia. I guess they have just read the head-line and misunderstood on purpose. So the article isn't really an answer to economical sanctions for Russia :P.

Rest of the quoted people have nothing to do with it and are wackos anyway. Awesome journalism.

Here it is if you can get anything out of it by translating

http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/mielipide/puheenvuoro/voisiko-suomi-olla-venajan-hongkong/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 07, 2014, 05:07:13 pm
Ahahaha, good find Elmuri
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:16:49 pm
Captured Ukrainian POW spills the beans on foreign mercenaries amongst the Ukrainian regime's forces.

As I said previously, both sides are playing dirty.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f7_1410094833

But of course, video evidence isn't enough for those raised on anti-Russian propaganda on this forum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 07, 2014, 06:23:27 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:16:49 pm
Captured Ukrainian POW spills the beans on foreign mercenaries amongst the Ukrainian regime's forces.

As I said previously, both sides are playing dirty.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f7_1410094833

FYI: Mercenaries have been around for...10k plus years. It's a legit job. You fight for someone and they pay you(more than regular troops) and if they stop, you leave.

So, they are not mercenaries in that sense. What they are is a People's Volunteer Army. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army)

Though, i guess the "modern" version of a mercenary is a PMC.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:26:17 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 07, 2014, 06:23:27 pm
FYI: Mercenaries have been around for...10k plus years. It's a legit job. You fight for someone and they pay you(more than regular troops) and if they stop, you leave.

So, they are not mercenaries in that sense. What they are is a People's Volunteer Army. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army)

Though, i guess the "modern" version of a mercenary is a PMC.

Many may go over to volunteer for battalions in which the soldiers are meant to receive a monthly wage. Essentially they crossed the Ukrainian border, joined the battalion and are now paid cannon fodder for the Poroshenko regime. I didn't state they were professionals, although I wouldn't hold much doubt that paid professionals are also being utilised in the conflict by both sides.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:30:43 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 06, 2014, 08:58:31 pm
You want to make me cry? Because that's how you make me cry. BTW - you are a liar, why should ANYONE listen to you? But if you keep insulting my friends in Ukraine calling them naztees - I WILL CRY, I GUARANTEE IT!

Oh, and Butan - I know full well, that this might be a fake. Problem with that is that there is a bunch of journos, who got this message and somehow I do not feel like they would be tweeting it, if it was not from "usual" or "known" source or deserved significance due to some other reason. I take this with a pinchpile of salt anyway. Whole ceasefire business is not going to hold, because russians don't have Mariupol+land route to Crimea at the very least, and there is this guy http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/09/05/russian-ambassador-anticipates-liberation-of-mariupol-in-ukraine who says that these people need to be liberated... so.
Ces't la vie (pardon me french  :? ).

Oh, and some lying German MP obviously... can someone from Germany confirm, that she is a know liar please?

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-201/#4168

I am a liar? Where have I lied?

I don't call your "friends" na azi's unless they are na zi's then the deserved to be called just that, and there are many of them, (maybe not so many now, after being obliterated) amongst the Kiev regime's armed forces.

Also, please tell me why are you crying? Are you crying for the civilians being murdered by the Kiev regime, or crying for the neo na zi columns now turned to ash by the separatists grad systems in Mariupol?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 07, 2014, 06:48:19 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:16:49 pm
Captured Ukrainian POW spills the beans on foreign mercenaries amongst the Ukrainian regime's forces.

As I said previously, both sides are playing dirty.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f7_1410094833

But of course, video evidence isn't enough for those raised on anti-Russian propaganda on this forum.
How is Ukraine "playing dirty" even if they have foreign mercenaries? Or are you honestly naïve enough to believe that most soldiers sign up because of their undying patriotism? How does it matter at all whether Ukraine has "foreign" soldiers on its paylist to fight Russians?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:59:10 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 07, 2014, 06:48:19 pm
How is Ukraine "playing dirty" even if they have foreign mercenaries? Or are you honestly naïve enough to believe that most soldiers sign up because of their undying patriotism? How does it matter at all whether Ukraine has "foreign" soldiers on its paylist to fight Russians?

Because some people believe they have the moral high ground in lambasting the separatists for taking on Russian, Chechen and other volunteers and accuse these volunteers of being Russian soldiers, although still provide little to no evidence to support this assertion. Hiring foreign fighters, especially along political lines is dirty, underhand and not in line with the Geneva convention, of course the Geneva convention has been completely disregarded by the Ukrainian regime in Kiev anyway so they might as well continue right? And who cares about international law, not NATO/West that's for sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Mercenary_Convention
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 07, 2014, 07:24:29 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:59:10 pm
Because some people believe they have the moral high ground in lambasting the separatists for taking on Russian, Chechen and other volunteers and accuse these volunteers of being Russian soldiers, although still provide little to no evidence to support this assertion.

Way to completely misunderstand the situation here (it's not like you ever show any understanding of anything anyway). The problem is not that there are Russians and Chechens in the separatist forces. The problem is that separatist forces are Russians and Chechens, and the few locals are for show. These aren't freedom fighters but rather a foreign invasion force.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 07, 2014, 07:49:16 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:59:10 pm
Because some people believe they have the moral high ground in lambasting the separatists for taking on Russian, Chechen and other volunteers and accuse these volunteers of being Russian soldiers, although still provide little to no evidence to support this assertion. Hiring foreign fighters, especially along political lines is dirty, underhand and not in line with the Geneva convention, of course the Geneva convention has been completely disregarded by the Ukrainian regime in Kiev anyway so they might as well continue right? And who cares about international law, not NATO/West that's for sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Mercenary_Convention
"Some people" have the moral high ground because Russia is invading Ukraine, and having Russian soldiers fight for the "separatists" proves that. And yeah indeed, who gives a fuck about some international law about mercenaries? All soldiers are mercenaries, saying anything else is just play-talk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 07, 2014, 08:00:54 pm
Besides, how many armed forces are active for the Ukraine right now? 10k? 20k? 30k?
To be honest, I don't know, doesn't really matter any way.
Let's assume 10k Ukrainian solders. 500 are Nazis. Wow, 5%... let's panic. They have all to be Nazis then, right?

Murmi, you can shake hands with the likes of Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyne and Panos. They make a fuzz cuz Norway has 2.5% Muslims and you generalize a whole states apparatus as Nazis cuz some random wankers act up.

But yes, you know a lot of things cuz <random reason> and we judge things with our brain feels. :lol:

Moving on...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 07, 2014, 08:01:23 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 07, 2014, 06:48:19 pm
How is Ukraine "playing dirty" even if they have foreign mercenaries? Or are you honestly naïve enough to believe that most soldiers sign up because of their undying patriotism? How does it matter at all whether Ukraine has "foreign" soldiers on its paylist to fight Russians?


We missed you Xant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 07, 2014, 08:38:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 07, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

We missed you Xant.
Nobody missed you, though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 09:10:54 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 07, 2014, 07:49:16 pm
"Some people" have the moral high ground because Russia is invading Ukraine, and having Russian soldiers fight for the "separatists" proves that. And yeah indeed, who gives a fuck about some international law about mercenaries? All soldiers are mercenaries, saying anything else is just play-talk.

Russia has not invaded Ukraine. Please provide evidence to prove otherwise. When the West and Western run NGO's lambast Russia and the separatists actions, its comparable to a murderer running a court, a lunatic running an asylum, a nobel peace prize laureate pushing the world into another cold war and creating the conditions for the next world war, (oops already happening). You and others support the Western establishments position toward Russia and the separatists, regardless of all the fake Western propaganda fresh from Kiev, the whitewashing of the Ukrainian regimes war crimes, the whitewashing of the neo-Na zi element amongst the Ukrainian army and government, and of course the Wests blatant hypocrisy and the amount of blood spilled by our own nations/alliances. To ignore so many instances of aggression, bloodshed, interference, breaching of multiple nations sovereignty by the West simply because the other side just so happens to be Russian, or Iraqi, or Afghani is an attitude similarly held by a racist, and it holds little to no substance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 07, 2014, 09:29:04 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 09:10:54 pm
To ignore so many instances of aggression, bloodshed, interference, breaching of multiple nations sovereignty by the West simply because the other side just so happens to be Russian, or Iraqi, or Afghani is an attitude similarly held by a racist, and it holds little to no substance.


To ignore so many instances of  aggression, bloodshed, interference, breaching of multiple nations sovereignty by Russia simply because the other side just so happens to be Ukrainian is an attitude similarly held by a racist, and it holds little to no substance."

You are making it so easy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 07, 2014, 09:33:30 pm
It's amazing that there's still people who claim Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine. It's very clear that people like Murmillus simply refuse to believe, and will refuse to believe even if Putler himself admits it. Mountains of evidence and still clueless. Oh well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 07, 2014, 09:42:08 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:30:43 pm
I am a liar? Where have I lied?

I don't call your "friends" na azi's unless they are na zi's then the deserved to be called just that, and there are many of them, (maybe not so many now, after being obliterated) amongst the Kiev regime's armed forces.

Also, please tell me why are you crying? Are you crying for the civilians being murdered by the Kiev regime, or crying for the neo na zi columns now turned to ash by the separatists grad systems in Mariupol?
I think it was because of http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg1059216/#msg1059216, where you lied about majority of the regions population wanting to join russia. Then, since you did not disproove it, and kept up the speed - I have no quarrels putting a label on you for what you are  :rolleyes:
Besides - you wan to make me cry :shock:

Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2014, 09:29:04 pm
To ignore so many instances of  aggression, bloodshed, interference, breaching of multiple nations sovereignty by Russia simply because the other side just so happens to be Ukrainian is an attitude similarly held by a racist, and it holds little to no substance."

You are making it so easy.
Oh you... I WANTED TO DO THIS :mad:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 07, 2014, 09:43:27 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 07, 2014, 09:33:30 pm
It's amazing that there's still people who claim Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine. It's very clear that people like Murmillus simply refuse to believe, and will refuse to believe even if Putler himself admits it. Mountains of evidence and still clueless. Oh well.

No no no, wrong Xante.

He always asks for proof, he doesn't deny anything, he isn't clueless!  :mrgreen:

just tried to predict the pull of that card from the deck

Quote from: Kuujis on September 07, 2014, 09:42:08 pm
Oh you... I WANTED TO DO THIS :mad:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


2fast2furious
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 07, 2014, 10:42:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 07, 2014, 08:38:33 pm
Nobody missed you, though.

Nor you.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on September 07, 2014, 11:04:23 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 07, 2014, 11:13:47 pm
Ah the goldeneye tank chase...

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 08, 2014, 05:06:23 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 07, 2014, 06:59:10 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Mercenary_Convention

Did you read your own link? No? 40 out of 192 countries have ratified this. And none of the "players" in this war have ratified it.

None of the "real powers" in the UN have agreed to it, probably because all of them use "Mercenaries" of some form.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 09:29:19 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 08, 2014, 05:06:23 am
Did you read your own link? No? 40 out of 192 countries have ratified this. And none of the "players" in this war have ratified it.

None of the "real powers" in the UN have agreed to it, probably because all of them use "Mercenaries" of some form.
probably he meant it
"Ukrainian SSR    September 21, 1990    September 13, 1993    Originally signed as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic; successor state is Ukraine."
Україна - це Європа!  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 10:22:15 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 09:29:19 am
Україна - це Європа!  :P
MMmm... well DID YOU KNOW THAT visitors can't see pics , please register or login


and its not really russias business where or what Ukraine is?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 08, 2014, 10:40:10 am
That picture always triggers my "Uneven borders" OCD.

If you have played any RTS, especially Paradox, you'll probably understand.

Maybe pootin has the same thing IRL
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 10:48:10 am
Quote from: Christo on September 08, 2014, 10:40:10 am
That picture always triggers my "Uneven borders" OCD.
If you have played any RTS, especially Paradox, you'll probably understand.
Maybe pootin has the same thing IRL
Any one who played as Russia know tactics "Feed Ukraine with territories and annex" :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 10:50:07 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 10:48:10 am
Any one who played as Russia know tactics "Feed on Ukraine with territories and annex eventually" :P
Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on September 08, 2014, 12:24:47 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 10:48:10 am
Any one who played as Russia know tactics "Feed Ukraine with territories and annex" :P

All those tasty Ruthenian cores. OM NOM NOM
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 12:47:43 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2014, 09:29:04 pm


To ignore so many instances of  aggression, bloodshed, interference, breaching of multiple nations sovereignty by Russia simply because the other side just so happens to be Ukrainian is an attitude similarly held by a racist, and it holds little to no substance."

You are making it so easy.

No I'm not Christo. The east UKRAINIANS are being bombed and shelled by UKRAINIANS AND MERCENARIES. Ok.. Your point, shattered. I mean after all, I've stated the blatant hypocrisy on the Wests stance about a state bombing its own people time and time again and have been opposed to a military solution in the Ukrainian crisis as it may not only further the suffering of the poor and innocent but drag us all into a world war. Looks like many of you want another world war, you've bought so much into the Western rhetoric toward Russia that you'd be waving NATO flags when the outbreak of WW3 commences, and instead of admitting a political solution is preferable to a military one in East Ukraine, many of you would rather point out things like, "Russia's living conditions are like ** and EU's living conditions are like ** and therefore attacking Russia is justified.... Utter drivel.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 01:21:14 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 12:47:43 pm
No I'm not Christo. The east UKRAINIANS are being bombed and shelled by UKRAINIANS AND MERCENARIES. Ok.. Your point, shattered. I mean after all, I've stated the blatant hypocrisy on the Wests stance about a state bombing its own people time and time again and have been opposed to a military solution in the Ukrainian crisis as it may not only further the suffering of the poor and innocent but drag us all into a world war. Looks like many of you want another world war, you've bought so much into the Western rhetoric toward Russia that you'd be waving NATO flags when the outbreak of WW3 commences, and instead of admitting a political solution is preferable to a military one in East Ukraine, many of you would rather point out things like, "Russia's living conditions are like ** and EU's living conditions are like ** and therefore attacking Russia is justified.... Utter drivel.
Well... I can't call this your usual LIE exactly, because you did not state, that "ONLY" Ukrainian army and mercs (where the fuck Ukraine takes money from for hiring of MERCS??? Can you please share your sources/ideas?) are shelling civilians. FOR THE RECORD, if the shelling was "proper", as was done by russians during their attempt to crush rebelling chechnyans at siege of Grozno, the numbers of civilians dead would be in tens of thousands, not ~3k, where it stands now. So there goes your "bombing civilians" argument... SHATTERED! :shock:

Last time wanabee pacifists got their way was before WW2, when one particular naztee was allowed to do what he wants. You are arguing to repeat this. Sounds logical... NOT. No sane mind wants a war, problem is - you gotta draw a red line somewhere and if you draw it too far - the consequences are too harsh. Which is what YOU are advocating.

And the last, but not LEAST item is, that you bought into russian rhetoric so much, as only a completely naive westerner, never having to deal with putlers russia, could have done.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:29:51 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 01:21:14 pm
Well... I can't call this your usual LIE exactly, because you did not state, that "ONLY" Ukrainian army and mercs (where the fuck Ukraine takes money from for hiring of MERCS??? Can you please share your sources/ideas?) are shelling civilians. FOR THE RECORD, if the shelling was "proper", as was done by russians during their attempt to crush rebelling chechnyans at siege of Grozno, the numbers of civilians dead would be in tens of thousands, not ~3k, where it stands now. So there goes your "bombing civilians" argument... SHATTERED! :shock:

Last time wanabee pacifists got their way was before WW2, when one particular naztee was allowed to do what he wants. You are arguing to repeat this. Sounds logical... NOT. No sane mind wants a war, problem is - you gotta draw a red line somewhere and if you draw it too far - the consequences are too harsh. Which is what YOU are advocating.

And the last, but not LEAST item is, that you bought into russian rhetoric so much, as only a completely naive westerner, never having to deal with putlers russia, could have done.

Shelling and bombing civilians is just that, whether 1 civilian or 1 million civilians die, civilians are still being shelled, based on the REALITY on the ground you have not shattered my argument imbecile. You accuse me of lying but can't prove it, call my lying usual but still can't prove it, strange, you'd have thought if it were such a usual occurrence then the disproving of my purported lies would also be a usual occurrence, but of course it's not.

"Wannabe pacifists", I didn't see many wannabe pacifists in Germany, Austria before the outbreak of WW2, their populations were almost entirely compliant with their governments views and actions, as people like you are with the NATO governments. History does repeat but not the way you think it does.

And I haven't bought completely into Russian rhetoric I know it has holes in it, as does the Western narrative, but at least I am able to source my information from both sides and make my mind up rather than idiots who are like, "RT PROPAGANDA, ANNA PROPAGANDA, BBC, SKY GOOD!".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 08, 2014, 01:30:39 pm
And again Murmillus proves he has no idea what he's talking about. DaveUKR, for one, has already stated that only Ukrainian army has artillery.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 08, 2014, 01:31:44 pm
No we're not Murmi. The offical Ukrainian army is being bombed and shelled by the Russian army supported terrorists. Ok.. Your point, shattered. I mean after all, I've stated the blatant hypocrisy on the Russian stance about terrorists bombing its own people time and time again and have been opposed to a military solution in the Ukrainian crisis as it may not only further the suffering of the poor and innocent but drag us all into new imperialism. Looks like many of you want another USSR, you've bought so much into the Russian rhetoric lies toward the NATO that you'd be waving Russian flags when the outbreak of USSR commences, and instead of admitting a quick solution is preferable to none at all in East Ukraine, many of you would rather point out things like, "Western conspiracy bullshit are like ** and Russia's living conditions are like ** and therefore defending the sovereign Ukraine is justified.... Utter drivel.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:32:17 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 08, 2014, 01:30:39 pm
And again Murmillus proves he has no idea what he's talking about. DaveUKR, for one, has already stated that only Ukrainian army has artillery.

What an incredibly inane statement to make Xant, although it's not unusual coming from you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 08, 2014, 01:33:44 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:32:17 pm
What an incredibly inane statement to make Xant, although it's not unusual coming from you.
Inane because you're proven wrong once again?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:40:28 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2014, 01:31:44 pm
No we're not Murmi. The offical Ukrainian army is being bombed and shelled by the Russian army supported terrorists. Ok.. Your point, shattered. I mean after all, I've stated the blatant hypocrisy on the Russian stance about terrorists bombing its own people time and time again and have been opposed to a military solution in the Ukrainian crisis as it may not only further the suffering of the poor and innocent but drag us all into new imperialism. Looks like many of you want another USSR, you've bought so much into the Russian rhetoric lies toward the NATO that you'd be waving Russian flags when the outbreak of USSR commences, and instead of admitting a quick solution is preferable to none at all in East Ukraine, many of you would rather point out things like, "Western conspiracy bullshit are like ** and Russia's living conditions are like ** and therefore defending the sovereign Ukraine is justified.... Utter drivel.

Official Ukrainian army, filled with foreign fighters... Right.. OFFICIAL.. LEGITIMATE.. NOT.

Still no point shattered by hyperbole and inane statements some of which are attempts at copying my own statements but replacing key words.

Russia took Crimea, via referendum, (admittedly with the security of the Russian Naval forces legitimately stationed there) hardly a life was lost. Sections of East Ukrainian society wanted to also break away from Ukraine or at a bare minimum be afforded greater autonomy, how were their requests and demands responded to? By Ukrainian artillery fire, bombing raids and Ukrainian propaganda about "terrorists", months later, hundreds of thousands displaced, tens of thousands dead later and we have the shitty situation we see today.

Had the coup installed Ukrainian regime allowed the East Ukrainians more autonomy, greater reassurances of their right to participate in the wider Ukrainian society then we would not have the bloodshed we see today, and yet you still blame this shit all on the Russians and blaming it on a purported Russian imperialism, when it's only really NATO that's been growing ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union and not the Russian federation, with the exception of Crimea this year, which by comparison is a microcosm.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:41:27 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 08, 2014, 01:33:44 pm
Inane because you're proven wrong once again?  :lol:

Proven wrong? It's widely known that both the Ukrainian government and separatists have access to artillery, but you stated only the Ukrainian government did, which in itself is an inane statement Xant, unless you were attempting to be sarcastic?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 08, 2014, 01:49:52 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:40:28 pm
[...]
Russia took Crimea, via referendum, (admittedly with the security of the Russian Naval forces legitimately stationed there) hardly a life was lost.
[...]
Stopped reading there since it's so stupidly wrong, why waste time reading the rest.
The contract for the stationed forces has been discussed very early in this thread. Under no circumstances were they allowed to leave the base w/o approval from local authorities. Which was never given by the relevant persons. Just this little fact makes it a military annexation and nothing else.
Not to mention that the referendum was rigged. That has been discussed too early in this thread.

I get the feeling you simply didn't read the thread, did you now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 08, 2014, 01:54:19 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:41:27 pm
Proven wrong? It's widely known that both the Ukrainian government and separatists have access to artillery, but you stated only the Ukrainian government did, which in itself is an inane statement Xant, unless you were attempting to be sarcastic?
Yep, dumber than Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:54:29 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2014, 01:49:52 pm
Stopped reading there since it's so stupidly wrong, why waste time reading the rest.
The contract for the stationed forces has been discussed very early in this thread. Under no circumstances were they allowed to leave the base w/o approval from local authorities. Which was never given by the relevant persons. Just this little fact makes it a military annexation and nothing else.
Not to mention that the referendum was rigged. That has been discussed too early in this thread.

I get the feeling you simply didn't read the thread, did you now.

It's stupidly wrong? The forces existed in Crimea legitimately, they did not cross the Russian/Ukrainian border as part of one of the phantom invasions the Ukrainian regime has accused Russia of time and time again.

You say the referendum was rigged? Where's your proof? Can you prove our referenda and elections in the West are NOT rigged? I had read reports about vote rigging in Crimea, the "dead" voting ect, the GOP and Democrats in the U.S have been accused of exactly the same type of strategy years ago.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:55:50 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 08, 2014, 01:54:19 pm
Yep, dumber than Tovi.

Say's the NATO mouthpiece, shit for brains Xant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 08, 2014, 01:57:52 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:54:29 pm
It's stupidly wrong? The forces existed in Crimea legitimately, they did not cross the Russian/Ukrainian border as part of one of the phantom invasions the Ukrainian regime has accused Russia of time and time again.
[...]
omg you're so hilarious :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:59:10 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2014, 01:57:52 pm
omg you're so hilarious :lol:

Where's the counter point other than your dumb statement about it being hilarious? I find it funny because if you honestly find what I wrote funny then your sense of humour is that of a wet used teabag, soggy and damp.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 08, 2014, 02:02:29 pm
Every military base is soil of the stationed military. But you had to know that since you're an expert.
As soon as you walk through the gate of a Russian military base, you're in Russia. That's why they weren't allowed to leave their base.
But hey, we're all clueless compared to you so what do I know, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 02:11:28 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2014, 02:02:29 pm
Every military base is soil of the stationed military. But you had to know that since you're an expert.
As soon as you walk through the gate of a Russian military base, you're in Russia. That's why they weren't allowed to leave their base.
But hey, we're all clueless compared to you so what do I know, right?

Clearly when I mentioned borders, I was referring to national (geographic) borders not state (bureaucratic) borders, in regards to the multitude of unproven accusations sources from the Ukrainian regime stating that Russia has been invading Ukraine from the East border.

I did not know that military bases afforded state territory status but I'll look into this myself, I know that Embassies are but I never knew military bases were. I have never argued or stated that I'm an "expert" in any respect on this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 08, 2014, 02:17:53 pm
But since those Russian green men left their base which they were not allowed to, even encircled Ukrainian bases, they invaded Crimea and took it by force.
No sham referendum or any other smart and witty remark will change that.
Without fully geared up Russian military, there would never been a referendum, Crimea would still be Ukrainian and the whole "civil" war would never have happened.

Yes, I fully blame Russia for the war because I strongly believe that without the military intervention for Crimea, there would never have been any problems in the East-Ukraine. That crap Russia pulled there gave them the silly idea that they could just leave too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 02:20:24 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2014, 02:17:53 pm
But since those Russian green men left their base which they were not allowed to, even encircled Ukrainian bases, they invaded Crimea and took it by force.
No sham referendum or any other smart and witty remark will change that.
Without fully geared up Russian military, there would never been a referendum, Crimea would still be Ukrainian and the whole "civil" war would never have happened.

Yes, I fully blame Russia for the war because I strongly believe that without the military intervention for Crimea, there would never have been any problems in the East-Ukraine. That crap Russia pulled there gave them the silly idea that they could just leave too.

I can't find any information on the interwebs which state that military bases are afforded sovereign national status, I find conflicting examples of the U.S applying national sovereignty over some of its bases and then not over other bases under its jurisdiction and no evidence of any other nation doing so. Can you find me some information to back your own statement up please? After all your statement about military bases being considered sovereign national territory is the crux of your argument that Russia had invaded the Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 02:22:32 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 08, 2014, 02:17:53 pm
But since those Russian green men left their base which they were not allowed to, even encircled Ukrainian bases, they invaded Crimea and took it by force.
No sham referendum or any other smart and witty remark will change that.
Without fully geared up Russian military, there would never been a referendum, Crimea would still be Ukrainian and the whole "civil" war would never have happened.

Yes, I fully blame Russia for the war because I strongly believe that without the military intervention for Crimea, there would never have been any problems in the East-Ukraine. That crap Russia pulled there gave them the silly idea that they could just leave too.

Without a NATO member state backed coup there would never have been any politically driven bloodshed on the scale that we have seen this year full stop. The further you go back the more the blame lies with foreign antagonists and sections of Ukrainian society manipulated by money and the influence they could attain, from these foreign antagonists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 02:34:02 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:29:51 pm
Shelling and bombing civilians is just that, whether 1 civilian or 1 million civilians die, civilians are still being shelled, based on the REALITY on the ground you have not shattered my argument imbecile. You accuse me of lying but can't prove it, call my lying usual but still can't prove it, strange, you'd have thought if it were such a usual occurrence then the disproving of my purported lies would also be a usual occurrence, but of course it's not.

No its not. One fameous russian leader once told "a death of an individual is a tragedy, a death of millions is statistics". \
Your point ONCE AGAIN SHATTERED!

I linked to your lies, cba to spend time on you again.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:29:51 pm
"Wannabe pacifists", I didn't see many wannabe pacifists in Germany, Austria before the outbreak of WW2, their populations were almost entirely compliant with their governments views and actions, as people like you are with the NATO governments. History does repeat but not the way you think it does.
Okai... very interesting definition of a country gearing towards causing world war... lets see, which of the participating countries has 87% approval rate towards their great leader... OH RIGHT, the one which was humiliated and slighted: rUSSIA.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:29:51 pm
And I haven't bought completely into Russian rhetoric I know it has holes in it, as does the Western narrative, but at least I am able to source my information from both sides and make my mind up rather than idiots who are like, "RT PROPAGANDA, ANNA PROPAGANDA, BBC, SKY GOOD!".
I'm sorry, but when you talk about a sail, which is in fact a fishing-net, and you call that thing "sail with holes" which mostly works... you are not only a liar, you are also plain old dumb  :rolleyes: OR you are just like putler, with his (c) "our soldiers are there on vacations", "we do not support fighting" and similar shit.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 02:22:32 pm
Without a NATO member state backed coup there would never have been any politically driven bloodshed on the scale that we have seen this year full stop. The further you go back the more the blame lies with foreign antagonists and sections of Ukrainian society manipulated by money and the influence they could attain, from these foreign antagonists.
Because it is impossible, that society got fed up with a corrupt president, who was causing BS on a grandest scale, finally tipping the scales with his refusal of the popular idea of Ukraine in EU and then going WAY overboard with the violent attacks on protesters by government troops with full COMBAT gear... yeahhh... right. Please look up occams razor principle before buying into the russian create conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 08, 2014, 02:35:55 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 08, 2014, 10:40:10 am
That picture always triggers my "Uneven borders" OCD.

If you have played any RTS, especially Paradox, you'll probably understand.

Maybe pootin has the same thing IRL


XD


If he really had uneven border OCD he would be tripping like a mad dog since Crimea annexation  :lol: :lol:

Maybe its reason behind supporting separatists?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Kuujis was right, they want Mariupol at all cost  :shock: for the sake of border continuity
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 03:06:24 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 08, 2014, 02:35:55 pm
Kuujis was right, they want Mariupol at all cost  :shock: for the sake of border continuity

Dat map btw... it lacks Konigsberg (Kaliningrad)... How is putler going to connect that dot - I gotz no clue... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 08, 2014, 03:30:26 pm
New evidence for Russian warmongering!

Something strange was spotted over Russia. Rasmussen: "This is clearly a weapon of mass destruction. We have underestimated Putin by far but I am sure our military and our missile defence system in eastern Europe, which was concentrated on Iran, can be used against Russia."


Evidence photo (this time it's no fake):
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 03:44:14 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 08, 2014, 03:30:26 pm
New evidence for Russian warmongering!

Something strange was spotted over Russia. Rasmussen: "This is clearly a weapon of mass destruction. We have underestimated Putin by far but I am sure our military and our missile defence system in eastern Europe, which was concentrated on Iran, can be used against Russia."


Evidence photo (this time it's no fake):
(click to show/hide)
Let me get this straight:
you are afraid, that a bunch of democratic countries will suddenly start a war with russia over... what exactly? When they cant even agree on sufficient spending on defence needs + proper timely sanctions against russia? You REALLY into that BS? And wanabee russian generals of defence lost all ability to cound and think that 10? 20? misile defence pods in eastern europe will be enough to handle 1k+ ICBM's that russia has?

Either there is some serious shit being smoken in kremlin by some gremlins OR someone has a serious case of paranoia (which comes after smooking too much of the best shiiiiieeeeeet). I would not keep either of these in power, if I was a russian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 04:44:28 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 03:44:14 pm
When they cant even agree on sufficient spending on defence needs
why spend the money now, if in the case of dire need, you always can kill the Jews and assign their moneyz
Quote from: Butan on September 08, 2014, 02:35:55 pm
Kuujis was right, they want Mariupol at all cost  :shock: for the sake of border continuity
somewhere came across information that Ukraine remains the only two major international seaports, such as Odessa and Mariupol, and i think terrorist need 1 of them for coal trade  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 04:50:49 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 04:44:28 pm
why spend the money now, if in the case of dire need, you always can kill the Jews and assign their moneyz
Like these guys? http://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/2690382/jewish/Prominent-Member-of-Jewish-Community-Shot-and-Killed-in-Donetsk-Ukraine.htm
Oh shi... sorry, wrong propaganda channel, sorry if I distorted your perception of reality! :)


Hey Murmi, got some new western protest in SUPPORT of putler and his BS video for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_YiL9b-h7ao#t=65, this is how SERIOUS this shit sounds when aired on russia24 channel! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QPn9uriQ0g&feature=youtu.be

 :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 08, 2014, 05:18:17 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 08, 2014, 04:50:49 pm
Like these guys? http://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/2690382/jewish/Prominent-Member-of-Jewish-Community-Shot-and-Killed-in-Donetsk-Ukraine.htm
Oh shi... sorry, wrong propaganda channel, sorry if I distorted your perception of reality! :)

He was killed because he was "trying to stop pro-russian rebels from robbing neighbour's home". More like he was trying to steal more than his share! Thats why he was killed, jews are too greedy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2014, 05:42:26 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 02:20:24 pm
I can't find any information on the interwebs which state that military bases are afforded sovereign national status, I find conflicting examples of the U.S applying national sovereignty over some of its bases and then not over other bases under its jurisdiction and no evidence of any other nation doing so. Can you find me some information to back your own statement up please? After all your statement about military bases being considered sovereign national territory is the crux of your argument that Russia had invaded the Crimea.

Regardless of those technicalities, the Russian troops stationed in Crimea were not allowed to get out without permission. And even beyond that, they weren't allowed to forcefully take control of official buildings. When the referendum took place Crimea was already occupied by Russian forces.

And yes, there is overwhelming evidence that the referendum was rigged by Russia to extreme lengths. As for comparing that referendum to elections in western countries, we should start with easily verifiable facts. Elections on western countries are subject to scrutiny by NGOs, which from time to time report problems (e.g. 2000 presidential elections in Florida). In Crimea, the work of actual NGO observers (not the far-righters hand-picked by Russian occupants) was overtly sabotaged by Russian forces, and they couldn't verify anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 08, 2014, 06:05:13 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 08, 2014, 05:42:26 pm
And yes, there is overwhelming evidence that the referendum was rigged by Russia to extreme lengths.

Quote from: Kafein on September 08, 2014, 05:42:26 pm
In Crimea, the work of actual NGO observers (not the far-righters hand-picked by Russian occupants) was overtly sabotaged by Russian forces, and they couldn't verify anything.


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 08, 2014, 06:08:32 pm
Perhaps unrelated: http://top.thepo.st/800202/Porno-sayt-PornHub-otreagiroval-na-rossiyskie-kriki-o-geyrope-i-morali-i-vyilojil-statistiku-svoego?fb_ref=feedShare_yandex
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 08, 2014, 06:11:02 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 08, 2014, 06:08:32 pm
Perhaps unrelated: http://top.thepo.st/800202/Porno-sayt-PornHub-otreagiroval-na-rossiyskie-kriki-o-geyrope-i-morali-i-vyilojil-statistiku-svoego?fb_ref=feedShare_yandex

Gotta wonder why they hate gays but love anal so much?




(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 08, 2014, 06:22:22 pm
"Russia will fuck you up!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2014, 06:23:09 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 08, 2014, 06:05:13 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 08, 2014, 08:28:16 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 08, 2014, 06:08:32 pm
Perhaps unrelated: http://top.thepo.st/800202/Porno-sayt-PornHub-otreagiroval-na-rossiyskie-kriki-o-geyrope-i-morali-i-vyilojil-statistiku-svoego?fb_ref=feedShare_yandex
we need to know all about how the enemy breeds!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 08, 2014, 08:53:35 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 08, 2014, 01:40:28 pm
Official Ukrainian army, filled with foreign fighters... Right.. OFFICIAL.. LEGITIMATE.. NOT.

Any proof on that? I mean are you serious about that?  :rolleyes: I doubt you have any idea how things work.
You will never prove it because it's not true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 08, 2014, 10:11:35 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on September 08, 2014, 08:53:35 pm
You will never prove it because it's not true.

That's a little bit hopeful. He will probably prove it in some way that only works in his head and rant about people kind enough to explain why he is wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Algarn on September 08, 2014, 11:10:19 pm
Dear holy mother of god, 425 pages on one thread... , and some of them are integrally bitch slaps between Murmillus and Xant. What the hell.

Someone must close this thread some day before it reaches 500 pages.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 08, 2014, 11:33:55 pm
Quote from: Algarn on September 08, 2014, 11:10:19 pm
Dear holy mother of god, 425 pages on one thread... , and some of them are integrally bitch slaps between Murmillus and Xant. What the hell.

Someone must close this thread some day before it reaches 500 pages.

Don't be uptight.  Let it go where it will, like a weed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:51:07 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 08, 2014, 05:42:26 pm
Regardless of those technicalities, the Russian troops stationed in Crimea were not allowed to get out without permission. And even beyond that, they weren't allowed to forcefully take control of official buildings. When the referendum took place Crimea was already occupied by Russian forces.

And yes, there is overwhelming evidence that the referendum was rigged by Russia to extreme lengths. As for comparing that referendum to elections in western countries, we should start with easily verifiable facts. Elections on western countries are subject to scrutiny by NGOs, which from time to time report problems (e.g. 2000 presidential elections in Florida). In Crimea, the work of actual NGO observers (not the far-righters hand-picked by Russian occupants) was overtly sabotaged by Russian forces, and they couldn't verify anything.

Then please tell me Kafeine are these permissions granted by a legitimate government to be observed when that government is overthrown and a puppet installed by opposing geopolitical parties are sworn in on the back of a coup?

Also, NGO's couldn't trust them as far as I could throw them, after all it was Western backed NGO's which manipulated compliant anti-Russian and pro-Western interested parties in Ukraine into overthrowing a democratically elected government. NGO's these days are merely a faux non-governmental extension of governments.

Also on a parting point, I find it laughable that my challenge to molly to back his statements up is rebuked not by molly, but yourself as a "technicality", when that technicality was the crux of molly's point, one unproven which completely discredits the point molly made.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:54:16 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on September 08, 2014, 08:53:35 pm
Any proof on that? I mean are you serious about that?  :rolleyes: I doubt you have any idea how things work.
You will never prove it because it's not true.

I only a page or two ago posted a video of a captured Ukrainian soldier blurting it all out on camera. Let me dig up some more "proof", then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 09, 2014, 12:58:23 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:51:07 am
Then please tell me Kafeine are these permissions granted by a legitimate government to be observed when that government is overthrown and a puppet installed by opposing geopolitical parties are sworn in on the back of a coup?

Then why didn't they march all the way to Kiev?  :lol:

Anyway annexation is not the answer, stop spewing bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:03:20 am
Quote from: Christo on September 09, 2014, 12:58:23 am
Then why didn't they march all the way to Kiev?  :lol:

Anyway annexation is not the answer, stop spewing bullshit.

Why? In my view, Putin is not that stupid, to invade another nation based on the aspirations of a minority is inexcusable and would grant NATO it's casus belli. (Even though NATO are guilty of this time and time again.) However he is interested in maintaining a buffer between NATO and Russia in the region of Ukraine due to the geopolitical topography, it's literally a gateway to Russia.

Israel is allowed to get away with genocide and occupation when it states that it must secure geopolitically vulnerable areas around Israel, (Golan heights for example), where is international law here? Why would international law be applied toward pro-Western nations when the international laws are just tools of those Western nations.

Also violence and warfare is not the answer either, but that's all we get. I prefer to spew my "bullshit" as long as it covers your bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 09, 2014, 01:11:43 am
Whataboutism at its fucking best
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:19:21 am
Quote from: Christo on September 09, 2014, 01:11:43 am
Whataboutism at its fucking best

Oh another term used by someone whom argues without any real substantial points to make. Whatabouttery, or as I see it hypocrisy, double standards, UNDERMINE CREDIBILITY. International law is not exempt from this principle.

On another note...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/08/donetsk-pro-russia-rebels-ukrainian-junta

Crowds of civilians, mainly women (their sons are probably on the front line defending their region from the Ukrainian regime), seem content thus far with the rebels ability to hold fast against the Ukrainian regime which utilises neo-Na zi regiments of volunteers and mercenaries against its own citizens in the East.

I quote. "We loved Ukraine until they started bombing us, now we can never go back there," said Zinaida, a 58-year-old local. "They are fascists and they have your support. We read that you have Scotland wanting to secede there. Why don't you send your tanks there and destroy them instead of sending them here? We will be part of Russia now and will never go back to those fascists."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 09, 2014, 01:46:34 am
Because the Scots don't have insurgents fighting and destabilizing the region with the support of a regional power. Duh.

Why can they separate without guns, tanks and annexation? Need to remind you who started all this? The insurgents.

Yep.

Keep spewing crap about 'fascist juntas' all you like, you won't be taken more seriously than RT news
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 09, 2014, 02:06:52 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:51:07 am
Then please tell me Kafeine are these permissions granted by a legitimate government to be observed when that government is overthrown and a puppet installed by opposing geopolitical parties are sworn in on the back of a coup?

Small correction: The government(the MP's) voted Yanukovich out of power after he fled the country. The legit, still elected government used it's own power to impeach the current president after he fled to Russia.

Then, 5 months later(?) there's a complete election to select a new President(in which, had he probably wanted, Yanukovich could have tried, but he wasn't going to win, and he was under arrest anyways...)

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:03:20 am
Why? In my view, Putin is not that stupid, to invade another nation based on the aspirations of a minority is inexcusable and would grant NATO it's casus belli. (Even though NATO are guilty of this time and time again.) However he is interested in maintaining a buffer between NATO and Russia in the region of Ukraine due to the geopolitical topography, it's literally a gateway to Russia.

Israel is allowed to get away with genocide and occupation when it states that it must secure geopolitically vulnerable areas around Israel, (Golan heights for example), where is international law here? Why would international law be applied toward pro-Western nations when the international laws are just tools of those Western nations.

Also violence and warfare is not the answer either, but that's all we get. I prefer to spew my "bullshit" as long as it covers your bullshit.

Isreal doesn't "get away with" genocide. Many countries condemn them, even the US was like: WTF? Difference is: Isreal has a strong army, and the Muslim nations around it have tried, multiple times, to stomp it. Course, all of the participants need to just be nuked cause they are all at fault.

Dude, you sound like somebody who's bassckwards.

Give me 5 sources(5 is the minimum for a paper, or work, to be considered legitimate, by the science community) of what you spout. Those sources must be either credible(by the same standards as defined earlier) or  some form of legitimate repeatable "test" that someone with sufficient knowledge is capable of reproducing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 09, 2014, 02:28:13 am
Quote from: Christo on September 09, 2014, 12:58:23 am
Then why didn't they march all the way to Kiev?  :lol:

Anyway annexation is not the answer, stop spewing bullshit.

According to the NATO, Putin has invaded the Ukraine like at least 3 times. But he isn't in Kiev yet? :o

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:03:20 am
Why? In my view, Putin is not that stupid, to invade another nation based on the aspirations of a minority is inexcusable and would grant NATO it's casus belli. (Even though NATO are guilty of this time and time again.) However he is interested in maintaining a buffer between NATO and Russia in the region of Ukraine due to the geopolitical topography, it's literally a gateway to Russia.

Israel is allowed to get away with genocide and occupation when it states that it must secure geopolitically vulnerable areas around Israel, (Golan heights for example), where is international law here? Why would international law be applied toward pro-Western nations when the international laws are just tools of those Western nations.

Also violence and warfare is not the answer either, but that's all we get. I prefer to spew my "bullshit" as long as it covers your bullshit.

Putin is not stupid at all. He sussed things out and frustrated Obama's plan through the referendum/annexation (whatever) of Crimea. The NATO is an aggressive alliance nowadays, and in my opinion it should have been dissolved when the Warsaw Pact dissolved...

The point with Israel and Gaza is a good one. In a YouTube video Ken Jebsen (don't know if you know him) has talked about armament supply to the Kurds in Iraq. Christian parties and Christians agreed to it and he questioned their logic. "In the bible, I can only find 'Thou shalt not kill.', but I can't find an exception like 'Thou shalt not kill, unless there will be a conflict in 2000 years in the Middle East' or something like this. How cowardly can one be to not confess to it?" Then he asked himself to make his viewers think about it: "By the way, why don't we send weapons to the occupied people in Gaza so they can defend themselves? We can only send to the occupants but not to the occupied. Strange, isn't it? Aren't they also exposed to terror like the Kurds are?"
"When in the past 500.000 Iraqi children starved to death due to our boycott of Iraq, because we didn't send any food to there, we could have said 'these people need our solidarity for humanitarian reasons' but the conference of bishops never said a word about it." *video ends*

By the way, a US-diplomat said "it was worth it" concerning the 500.000 children.

Let me end this post with another quote from Ken Jebsen: "The chaos is the objective."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dark_Blade on September 09, 2014, 02:35:40 am
Quote from: BIA_ivani4 on September 04, 2014, 03:19:47 pm
(click to show/hide)
too expresisve  :D but sadly pretty close to the truth.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 03:45:48 am
After the link to the previous article I posted showing East Ukrainians cheering on, I'd like to post a link to the kind of crowds Mr Chocolate Chip pulls.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b1_1410212622

I quote.

"reported that workers from factory's was forced in to buses and to meeting with Poroshenko ,it was mandatory if you want to keep your job.
 everyone has to sign list to report as being present ,wearing work helmet and work robe was
 mandatory too .so it looks like he talk to workers who just stopped to listen to "their leader"
 They started this hours before Parashenko showed up."

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 03:56:32 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 09, 2014, 02:06:52 am
Small correction: The government(the MP's) voted Yanukovich out of power after he fled the country. The legit, still elected government used it's own power to impeach the current president after he fled to Russia.

Then, 5 months later(?) there's a complete election to select a new President(in which, had he probably wanted, Yanukovich could have tried, but he wasn't going to win, and he was under arrest anyways...)

Isreal doesn't "get away with" genocide. Many countries condemn them, even the US was like: WTF? Difference is: Isreal has a strong army, and the Muslim nations around it have tried, multiple times, to stomp it. Course, all of the participants need to just be nuked cause they are all at fault.

Dude, you sound like somebody who's bassckwards.

Give me 5 sources(5 is the minimum for a paper, or work, to be considered legitimate, by the science community) of what you spout. Those sources must be either credible(by the same standards as defined earlier) or  some form of legitimate repeatable "test" that someone with sufficient knowledge is capable of reproducing.

He fled the country after receiving death threats from the same people behind the shootings of the Policemen in the Maidan, people associated with Right Sector.

America condemns them? Then gives them billions in aid, the latest U.S weaponry, allows Israel to get away with developing an undeclared nuclear arsenal, exempts Israel from international law. Condemnation in the face of such an overwhelming support is like holding a candle up to a sun, what candle?

Also to your latter point, you're challenging me to gather information on my view of the situation judged by a scientific community, and you want me to find information you deem credible, when it's likely anything I post, regardless of its source or its message would be disregarded by you anyway? I won't waste my time. Unless that is you are more specific on the subject of your request, then I may reconsider.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 09, 2014, 06:13:03 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 03:56:32 am
Also to your latter point, you're challenging me to gather information on my view of the situation judged by a scientific community, and you want me to find information you deem credible, when it's likely anything I post, regardless of its source or its message would be disregarded by you anyway? I won't waste my time. Unless that is you are more specific on the subject of your request, then I may reconsider.

Post your sources, and if they follow the recommendations I posted, we can then start whittling away the wheat from the chaff. The mere fact that you totally ignore my comment to bring on anything with 5 other sources that it calls out, leads me to believe you have nothing that has an equitable fact check system.

At least post something with proper citations, hell, wikipedia has a better article(s) than most the stuff I see here, and a good portion of that is cited(albeit from "flimsy" single type sources)

(First step in any logical argument is presenting your facts, findings, and sources. If you "can't be bothered" to do even that, then all you are doing is arguing opinions, and there is no correct opinion.)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 09, 2014, 07:16:54 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:54:16 am
I only a page or two ago posted a video of a captured Ukrainian soldier blurting it all out on camera. Let me dig up some more "proof", then.

Okay, even according to your "proof":

1. The guy is who?
2. This guy speaks Russian so he's obviously not a mercenary. Also he doesn't look like an Azov material, I mean really - a guy who speaks Russian and can't spell accents correctly in the name of his own country doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi"
3. Azov is not Army. It's a volunteer battalion of National Guard which is a part of Police.
4. Where are mercenaries themselves?

I mean if you get this as proof, why don't you get official acknowledged Russian military soldiers/officers as proof speaking about Russia's intentions (I mean those latest videos of captured Russian airborne). Nobody should trust such videos because even if the person is real - he'll say a lot of things he wouldn't say being free including words that people who are interviewing him want to hear.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 09, 2014, 08:23:50 am
Quote
Also he doesn't look like an Azov material, I mean really - a guy who speaks Russian and can't spell accents correctly in the name of his own country doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi"

Actually many/most Azov fighters are russian-speaking. There are plenty guys from my city there, which is 95% russian speaking. Also, the only citizen of Russia who died fighting on Ukraine's side was in Azov. Although that indeed doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 09, 2014, 08:43:58 am
Итого подытожив.
 Иностранные "наемники" в армии украины, которая не армия а милиция на самом деле волонтеры. В свою очередь Россия (которая за пару недель уже потеряла 2 тысячи десантников, больше чем и украина и сепаратисты вместе за все время войны) активно участвует в войне против милиции, которая состоит из волонтеров и срочников ВС украины во время антитеррористической операции на востоке украины против сепаратистов, которых европа отказалась признать террористами.  Вроде все понятно  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 08:59:57 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:51:07 am
Also on a parting point, I find it laughable that my challenge to molly to back his statements up is rebuked not by molly, but yourself as a "technicality", when that technicality was the crux of molly's point, one unproven which completely discredits the point molly made.

Because it is fucking irrelevant if military bases have status of sovereign states or not: Russian military took over the Supreme Court and occupied polling stations. What is it you don't understand?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 09:05:21 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 09, 2014, 08:43:58 am
Итого подытожив.
 Иностранные "наемники" в армии украины, которая не армия а милиция на самом деле волонтеры. В свою очередь Россия (которая за пару недель уже потеряла 2 тысячи десантников, больше чем и украина и сепаратисты вместе за все время войны) активно участвует в войне против милиции, которая состоит из волонтеров и срочников ВС украины во время антитеррористической операции на востоке украины против сепаратистов, которых европа отказалась признать террористами.  Вроде все понятно  :P
You are still funny. How is it, that an almost BROKE nation is able to afford mercenaries is WAY beyond me... And it looks perfectly natural to our russian audience (oh, with some liars like Murmi as an addition). How is that?

Also - your "summary" missed the part, where rebels were mostly pressed hard to hold two major towns, until russian army invaded "for vacations" (btw - do ALL russian soldiers get to drive tanks from their units arsenal back to their villages? You know - for plowing the fields n shit?) and basically stabbed Ukraine in the back AGAIN, please don't forget that the next time you do a "summary"  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 09, 2014, 09:16:46 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 09, 2014, 08:43:58 am
Итого подытожив.
 Иностранные "наемники" в армии украины, которая не армия а милиция на самом деле волонтеры. В свою очередь Россия (которая за пару недель уже потеряла 2 тысячи десантников, больше чем и украина и сепаратисты вместе за все время войны) активно участвует в войне против милиции, которая состоит из волонтеров и срочников ВС украины во время антитеррористической операции на востоке украины против сепаратистов, которых европа отказалась признать террористами.  Вроде все понятно  :P

Итого подытожив.
Вовка не может читать английский текст, а если может, то не понимает его. Если не ошибаюсь, то в русском языке "волонтёр" и "доброволец" - это не совсем одно и то же по смыслу, про волонтерские подразделения я не слышал, имелся ввиду добровольческий батальон, коим Азов и является. И почитай, что такое Национальная Гвардия - это аналог внутренних войск в РФ, которые ни в Украине ни в России не являются частью вооруженных сил. Про срочников - это ты уже сам додумал. А про террористов и 2 тысячи десантников - разве я когда-то упоминал это вообще? Или я называю их террористами что ли? Я уже очень давно писал о том, что в украинских СМИ лоббируется пропаганда про огромные потери противника, размер которых невозможен даже в теории.

Quote from: serr on September 09, 2014, 08:23:50 am
Actually many/most Azov fighters are russian-speaking. There are plenty guys from my city there, which is 95% russian speaking. Also, the only citizen of Russia who died fighting on Ukraine's side was in Azov. Although that indeed doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi".

Well, a lot of Ukrainians are, including me and you. Also a lot of Ukrainians use the wrong accent in that word. It was not serious ofc. I was just mocking Tovi's image of Azov.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 09, 2014, 09:26:08 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 09:05:21 am
You are still funny. How is it, that an almost BROKE nation is able to afford mercenaries is WAY beyond me...
Old trick they just  do not pay
Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 09:05:21 am
Also - your "summary" missed the part, where rebels were mostly pressed hard to hold two major towns, until russian army invaded "for vacations" (btw - do ALL russian soldiers get to drive tanks from their units arsenal back to their villages? You know - for plowing the fields n shit?) and basically stabbed Ukraine in the back AGAIN, please don't forget that the next time you do a "summary"  8-)
Russia is too poor to pay for tickets  so it allows soldiers use tanks as a vehicle.


http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3_89SKNJbouTBD97k-mkJQ
Сер, Дейв что скажете про видюшки из этого канала? Там кстати "Грузин Доберман" мелькает тоже в принципе говоря про "наемников" я только его балбеса и имею ввиду XD
 
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 12:10:53 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:51:07 am
Then please tell me Kafeine are these permissions granted by a legitimate government to be observed when that government is overthrown and a puppet installed by opposing geopolitical parties are sworn in on the back of a coup?

That view only has legitimacy in Russia, its lapdogs and a few African diplomats who recently received generous donations. Your whole point stands on EuroMaidan being a NATO coup, something you didn't even tried to prove.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 12:31:52 pm
whoa, they found out MH17 was shot down!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:38:53 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 12:10:53 pm
That view only has legitimacy in Russia, its lapdogs and a few African diplomats who recently received generous donations. Your whole point stands on EuroMaidan being a NATO coup, something you didn't even tried to prove.

Most of the bullshit about Russia invading has not even been proved either and yet I've seen this accusation being spread around more than once here. Most of you don't back your shit up and when I ask molly to suddenly you want me to back evidence of NATO/US meddling in Maidan, to prove that an interview was legitimate? What else? Do you want me to pull answers and proof out of my ass?

Also in response to Anders, I don't think ANYONE here has a fact checking system, in-fact since you proposed it why don't you put your fact checking "system" to use in disproving my points? Well? Come up with facts of the Russian invasion of East Ukraine backed by "scientists" and "credible" sources.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 09, 2014, 12:41:00 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 12:31:52 pm
whoa, they found out MH17 was shot down!
no! within 6 months they found out what  MH17 crashed! now they need another year for investigations!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:41:24 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 12:10:53 pm
That view only has legitimacy in Russia, its lapdogs and a few African diplomats who recently received generous donations. Your whole point stands on EuroMaidan being a NATO coup, something you didn't even tried to prove.

It has no legitimacy in the nations and their allies complicit in orchestrating the coup though right? I wonder why?..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Foreign Intervention and the Ukraine Crisis


Former U.S. Intelligence Officer Says U.S. Orchestrated Coup In Ukraine


Stratfor Founder Admits Ukraine Is U.S. Regime Change Puppet (I'm posting a FOX NEWS clip, cringe! Although an interview with the Statfor founder,


Proof Ukraine Crisis Was Manufactured By U.S. Government - GMN Wake-Up Call


U.S. Asst Sec of State Victoria Nuland Openly Discussing Ukraine Subversion & Overthrow


Admittedly you'd need a little bit of patience to watch these videos through, and I don't really expect those of you holding opposing views to do so, but you asked me to back shit up and I've provided these videos two of which have ex intelligence officials giving their own perspective on the Western agenda in Ukrainne, and two videos sources from an alternate media outlet which provides video evidence of American governmental officials openly speaking of meddling in Ukrainian politics. These videos are telling and I believe the first two are particularly important as these people have been in the Western intelligence circles and have been privy to information the likes of you and me would be completely in the dark about.

Of course as I mentioned many pages ago, all the evidence you need when trying to understand Western complicity in Ukraine is the fact that after the coup suddenly offers of IMF loans are being pulled out of the IMF's arse and given to Ukraine, loans the IMF were not prepared to give Ukraine while the elected and legitimate Yanukovych government was in power. I believe the IMF's willingness to give Ukraine loans after the Wests puppet has been installed is tantamount to bribery and financial subversion, that money won't see the poor masses in Ukraine, it will stay in the pockets of Oligarchs like Poroshenko.

Nuland at the end of the last video states that Ukraine will have the future it deserves, it won't be pretty trust me.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 01:03:59 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:38:53 pm
Most of the bullshit about Russia invading has not even been proved either and yet I've seen this accusation being spread around more than once here. [...]
Wait, Putin himself stating that the little green men were in fact Russian soldiers is not proof enough for you?  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:07:30 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2014, 01:03:59 pm
Wait, Putin himself stating that the little green men were in fact Russian soldiers is not proof enough for you?  :shock:

What happened in Crimea was different to what's happening in East Ukraine. It can easily be argued that Russian involvement in Crimea was sanctioned by the peoples of Crimea. Anyway please enjoy those 5 videos I posted, after all when I get asked to back my shit up at least I make an effort, unlike yourself. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:13:10 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 08:59:57 am
Because it is fucking irrelevant if military bases have status of sovereign states or not: Russian military took over the Supreme Court and occupied polling stations. What is it you don't understand?

No it's not. When you make the point that a military base is deemed sovereign territory and therefore based on that fact one could conclude that Russia did invade Crimea by crossing the Russian border, (of the military base) into Crimea (Under an illegitimate coup government) then that fact is the crux of the argument and can make or break the point being made, and in this case was easily broken by the lack of substantiating evidence to support the argument that the Russian bases in Crimea were considered sovereign Russian territory.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 01:16:05 pm
I actually consider time backing stuff up for you wasted. After all, you just gonna write something like "...but NATO did it before in another country." which is absolutely irrelevant.
You try to proof NATO being mean and bad in the last 10 years that you completely ignore Russia's involvement right now. What's the point in even arguing with you?
The only reason I keep posting now and then is for my own personal amusement. Getting through your "NATO enemy no. 1" attitude has proven impossible.

Butan at least seems to consider different view points. You just swoosh them away with some live leak videos... "I saw this on the interwebs!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:29:34 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2014, 01:16:05 pm
I actually consider time backing stuff up for you wasted. After all, you just gonna write something like "...but NATO did it before in another country." which is absolutely irrelevant.
You try to proof NATO being mean and bad in the last 10 years that you completely ignore Russia's involvement right now. What's the point in even arguing with you?
The only reason I keep posting now and then is for my own personal amusement. Getting through your "NATO enemy no. 1" attitude has proven impossible.

Butan at least seems to consider different view points. You just swoosh them away with some live leak videos... "I saw this on the interwebs!"

I can cite NATO's actions in other conflicts and cases of forced regime change and cite NATO member states involvement in the overthrow of Yanukovych, you see Molly same alliance, same actors, same result, bloodshed and chaos. Don't you realise this? You CAN'T say the same about the Russian federation though, you can't bring up 14 years worth of wars around the globe sponsored and partook by Russia but you can if we're talking about NATO. Now, this is a fact and none of you can disprove of what I have just said. Now based on these facts as they are, they have happened, its in the history books already, tell me one good reason why our media scream aggression when Russia is engaging on a conflict right on its own border but they didn't scream aggression after endless bombing campaigns by NATO?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 09, 2014, 01:50:56 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:29:34 pm
tell me one good reason why our media scream aggression when Russia is engaging on a conflict right on its own border but they didn't scream aggression after endless bombing campaigns by NATO?
I think, because they can't scream on themselves. NATO is a huge money investments, and they need a boogeyman to expand influence and justify expenses
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:53:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 09, 2014, 01:50:56 pm
I think, because they can't scream on themselves. NATO is a huge money investments, and they need a boogeyman to expand influence and justify expenses

I'm a citizen in one of the leading NATO states and I can openly speak against NATO, as can many thousands of other Westerners. Yet having a voice and being heard are two completely different things. However I do suspect that the mentality being employed by those holding opposing views here is being reinforced by negative experiences passed down from family members, people posting here are from nations which were once under rule by or attacked by the Soviet Union therefore have an inherent hatred and distrust for Russians. With such an inherited mind set it would be unlikely that this thread will come to any real conclusion as the aforementioned mind set has been intertwined with these peoples psyche from a very early age.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 01:59:32 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:13:10 pm
No it's not. When you make the point that a military base is deemed sovereign territory and therefore based on that fact one could conclude that Russia did invade Crimea by crossing the Russian border, (of the military base) into Crimea (Under an illegitimate coup government) then that fact is the crux of the argument and can make or break the point being made, and in this case was easily broken by the lack of substantiating evidence to support the argument that the Russian bases in Crimea were considered sovereign Russian territory.

I don't care what Molly's initial point was. You deny Russia invaded Crimea. I say: It was invaded by russia because their military took control over official buildings and then pulled of that 'referendum'.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:00:15 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 01:59:32 pm
I don't care what Molly's initial point was. You deny Russia invaded Crimea. I say: It was invaded by russia because their military took control over official buildings and then pulled of that 'referendum'.

I denied Russian troops crossed the Ukrainian border and invaded Crimea. Come on now, stop putting words in my mouth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 09, 2014, 02:03:10 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 02:04:05 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:00:15 pm
I denied Russian troops crossed the Ukrainian border and invaded Crimea. Come on now, stop putting words in my mouth.

So you are not denying that Russia invaded Crimea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:08:22 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:29:34 pm
I can cite NATO's actions in other conflicts and cases of forced regime change and cite NATO member states involvement in the overthrow of Yanukovych, you see Molly same alliance, same actors, same result, bloodshed and chaos. Don't you realise this? You CAN'T say the same about the Russian federation though, you can't bring up 14 years worth of wars around the globe sponsored and partook by Russia but you can if we're talking about NATO. Now, this is a fact and none of you can disprove of what I have just said. Now based on these facts as they are, they have happened, its in the history books already, tell me one good reason why our media scream aggression when Russia is engaging on a conflict right on its own border but they didn't scream aggression after endless bombing campaigns by NATO?
See?
Again with the "...but NATO!"
This isn't the topic of the thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:10:20 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on September 09, 2014, 02:04:05 pm
So you are not denying that Russia invaded Crimea?

I am denying they invaded Crimea in the conventional sense of invasion, how can you invade a land on which your armed forces already legitimately exist, a legitimacy which is then lost when the legitimate government is illegitimately overthrown throwing the whole situation into a grey area.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:11:53 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:08:22 pm
See?
Again with the "...but NATO!"
This isn't the topic of the thread.

YOU brought up NATO and I responded to it and then you come back with this shit? Grow up molly.

As mentioned before, (have to repeat myself 2234344231 times for your dumbfuck brain) leading NATO member states largely orchestrated the coup in Ukraine, therefore NATO is complicit, also NATO is the standard on which any international conduct could be set against as you can't get any worse and more bloody and aggressive than NATO.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:12:23 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:10:20 pm
I am denying they invaded Crimea in the conventional sense of invasion, how can you invade a land on which your armed forces already legitimately exist, a legitimacy which is then lost when the legitimate government is illegitimately overthrown throwing the whole situation into a grey area.
Bullshit upon bullshit. ALL russian movements in crimea had to be prior approved by ministry of defence, which at that time was completely legitimate. You are lying or showing your ignorance. Help me decide PLEASE!!! B/C I will ... cry...  :? :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:12:54 pm
ugh... I give up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_justice)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:14:27 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:11:53 pm
YOU brought up NATO and I responded to it and then you come back with this shit? Grow up molly.

As mentioned before, (have to repeat myself 2234344231 times for your dumbfuck brain) leading NATO member states largely orchestrated the coup in Ukraine, therefore NATO is complicit, also NATO is the standard on which any international conduct could be set against as you can't get any worse and more bloody and aggressive than NATO.
And when russia bought and orchestrated prior president of ukraine - did NATO invade? Did they start a war over it? Because russia did.

Also - again - can you please list where NATO actually started a war? But be specific - NATO, not some coalition or nation, specifically NATO. Because I do not know of such cases. I'm THAT ignorant, as you imagine... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:14:51 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:12:23 pm
Bullshit upon bullshit. ALL russian movements in crimea had to be prior approved by ministry of defence, which at that time was completely legitimate. You are lying or showing your ignorance. Help me decide PLEASE!!! B/C I will ... cry...  :? :cry:

Wait, a legitimate government is overthrown and is taken over by actors in a Western orchestrated coup and you state that the Ukrainian ministry of defence was completely legitimate? How can legitimacy come from illegitimacy? Fucked up logic brah.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:16:55 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:14:27 pm
And when russia bought and orchestrated prior president of ukraine - did NATO invade? Did they start a war over it? Because russia did.

Also - again - can you please list where NATO actually started a war? But be specific - NATO, not some coalition or nation, specifically NATO. Because I do not know of such cases. I'm THAT ignorant, as you imagine... :rolleyes:

Hey, if the West backed Poroshenko in the 2014 elections and had no prior coup occurred then I wouldn't be holding the position that I do today. A legitimate democratic process whether backed by the West or Russia is hard to be argued with, yet holding an election when there's a civil war in your country after those holding the election only came to power on the back of an illegal coup, well that's a whole different game.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:20:37 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:14:51 pm
Wait, a legitimate government is overthrown and is taken over by actors in a Western orchestrated coup and you state that the Ukrainian ministry of defence was completely legitimate? How can legitimacy come from illegitimacy? Fucked up logic brah.
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 09, 2014, 02:06:52 am
Small correction: The government(the MP's) voted Yanukovich out of power after he fled the country. The legit, still elected government used it's own power to impeach the current president after he fled to Russia.

Then, 5 months later(?) there's a complete election to select a new President(in which, had he probably wanted, Yanukovich could have tried, but he wasn't going to win, and he was under arrest anyways...)
[...]
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:11:53 pm
As mentioned before, (have to repeat myself 2234344231 times for your dumbfuck brain)...
[...]
Yes, you much dumbfuck... :rolleyes:

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:16:55 pm
Hey, if the West backed Poroshenko in the 2014 elections and had no prior coup occurred then I wouldn't be holding the position that I do today. A legitimate democratic process whether backed by the West or Russia is hard to be argued with, yet holding an election when there's a civil war in your country after those holding the election only came to power on the back of an illegal coup, well that's a whole different game.
Yea, guess a referendum with foreign soldiers on your lawn is much more democratic? :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:22:25 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:20:37 pm
Yes, you much dumbfuck... :rolleyes:

The government held at gunpoint by Right Sector after being smeared by the Western mainstream media for apparently ordering the shooting of civilians had only then decided to impeach Yanukovych, long after he had fled after receiving death threats.

That's the kind of people brought to power in Ukraine, people who hold a gun to peoples heads, murder journalists and send death threats.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:22:51 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:20:37 pm
Yes, you much dumbfuck... :rolleyes:
Yea, guess a referendum with foreign soldiers on your lawn is much more democratic? :lol:

When there's no form of legitimate governance in the region, yes. Also we can argue the point about them being only foreign soldiers, many of the soldiers stationed in Sevastapol live in Crimea, just as most of the East Ukrainian rebels live in the region, they are local to the region, they have been raised in that region, it's their home.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:27:15 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:22:51 pm
When there's no form of legitimate governance in the region, yes.
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:22:25 pm
The government held at gunpoint by Right Sector after being smeared by the Western mainstream media for apparently ordering the shooting of civilians had only then decided to impeach Yanukovych, long after he had fled after receiving death threats.

That's the kind of people brought to power in Ukraine, people who hold a gun to peoples heads, murder journalists and send death threats.
Two more BS's, which were hammered into your thick head by RT, LifeNews and some other "relevant and unbiased" channels...

The fact, that presindent was ousted and then got impeached after running away DOES NOT invalidate legally ellected parliament OR the ministers they chose. And Poroshenko was elected by more than 50% of eligible voters, even if 3 regions of Ukraine did not had a full chance to vote. How is that for a legitimacy? I find it MUCH better than Crimea "referendum" or the shams in "novorussia".

Yeah... guns of a fringe right-ist movement, which got like 2 or 3 % votes created a coup. Can I get an address of your dealer? Because the shit you are smoking seems to be good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:27:51 pm
Guess we can expect Red Coats invading Scotland soon again if Murmi had a say in it :lol:

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FOR THE HIGHLANDS!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 02:28:20 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 12:38:53 pm
Most of the bullshit about Russia invading has not even been proved either and yet I've seen this accusation being spread around more than once here.

Trying to change the subject, are we?

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Admittedly you'd need a little bit of patience to watch these videos through, and I don't really expect those of you holding opposing views to do so, but you asked me to back shit up and I've provided these videos two of which have ex intelligence officials giving their own perspective on the Western agenda in Ukrainne, and two videos sources from an alternate media outlet which provides video evidence of American governmental officials openly speaking of meddling in Ukrainian politics. These videos are telling and I believe the first two are particularly important as these people have been in the Western intelligence circles and have been privy to information the likes of you and me would be completely in the dark about.

Actually I watched all those videos, and to no surprise none of them provide convincing (or new) elements, see below.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Of course as I mentioned many pages ago, all the evidence you need when trying to understand Western complicity in Ukraine is the fact that after the coup suddenly offers of IMF loans are being pulled out of the IMF's arse and given to Ukraine, loans the IMF were not prepared to give Ukraine while the elected and legitimate Yanukovych government was in power. I believe the IMF's willingness to give Ukraine loans after the Wests puppet has been installed is tantamount to bribery and financial subversion, that money won't see the poor masses in Ukraine, it will stay in the pockets of Oligarchs like Poroshenko.

The IMF offers loans according to a multitude of factors. That the loans were offered after the coup is proof of what exactly?

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Foreign Intervention and the Ukraine Crisis


Self-proclaimed "geopolitical experts" (who seem only to have personal websites to their name) and emotionally supercharged commentary. Zero actual evidence of NATO, EU, US or IMF destabilization of Ukraine (supporting civil society and democratic institutions isn't the same as funding rebels or an uprising). Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Former U.S. Intelligence Officer Says U.S. Orchestrated Coup In Ukraine


RT News, emotionally supercharged, random interviewed individual with random views presented as some sort of authority. Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.


Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Stratfor Founder Admits Ukraine Is U.S. Regime Change Puppet (I'm posting a FOX NEWS clip, cringe! Although an interview with the Statfor founder,


Pro-Western government doesn't imply a government that was installed by western agencies. For example, the last Belgian government was pro-western, and was elected democratically. The interviewed person never says or implies that EuroMaidan was orchestrated by western forces.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
Proof Ukraine Crisis Was Manufactured By U.S. Government - GMN Wake-Up Call


Same arguments I already showed to be inconclusive. Also, proof that the western conspiracy is supporting Maidan with cookies. Even more amusingly, "false flag operations" that are not even publicized by the "western propaganda machine" (ever hear of the Odessa fire in mainstream media? Not much if any).

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 01:00:39 pm
U.S. Asst Sec of State Victoria Nuland Openly Discussing Ukraine Subversion & Overthrow


They are only discussing subversion and overthrow if you absolutely insist on systematically interpreting what they say in that way. In fact it's all very generic commentary on pro-democracy protests and violent government response. They had almost the same talks about the Turkish anti-Erdogan protests.




The first thing that immediately strikes me as wrong with the "Maidan was a western coup" rethoric is that it wasn't even a coup, regardless of who or what caused it. For reference, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat is a coup (and one the US knowingly let happen even though they could prevent it). Notice the differences?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:28:59 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:27:15 pm
Two more BS's, which were hammered into your thick head by RT, LifeNews and some other "relevant and unbiased" channels...

The fact, that presindent was ousted and then got impeached after running away DOES NOT invalidate legally ellected parliament OR the ministers they chose.

Yeah... guns of a fringe right-ist movement, which got like 2 or 3 % votes created a coup. Can I get an address of your dealer? Because the shit you are smoking seems to be good.

Percentage of the vote does not equate the right sectors influence and complicity in the riots that preceded the coup. They were armed, and they had shot people and police, and they had sent death threats to Yanukovych and his family.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 02:29:55 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:28:59 pm
Percentage of the vote does not equate the right sectors influence and complicity in the riots that preceded the coup. They were armed, and they had shot people and police, and they had sent death threats to Yanukovych and his family.

You are just going to ignore me, are you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 09, 2014, 02:31:27 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2014, 01:16:05 pm
Butan at least seems to consider different view points. You just swoosh them away with some live leak videos... "I saw this on the interwebs!"


 :cry: :oops:



Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 09:05:21 am
How is it, that an almost BROKE nation is able to afford mercenaries is WAY beyond me..

Ukraine is broke also BECAUSE they do war and its 100% sure mercenaries are involved. They always are, no need to find proof, because mercenaries are at their home in wars; and like prostitutes and smugglers, they will always exist.

I wouldnt be surprised Poroshenko oligarch circle used their personal wealth to assure they stay in a relative state of security and stability, else they would fall from power, "artificially" increasing the economical output of Ukraine.
Some very rich people in Ukraine are famously known for funding militia and investing in military projects, why not in mercs?
There is also the possibility of external help, hard to trace back to who and why and if they even exist!

The same is true for russian friendly oligarchs FROM UKRAINE, funding rebels and mercs. A part of the Yanukovitch oligarch circle remained loyal and are still "in action"; some became "neutral" and some joined the new government in their fight for territorial control.



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:31:36 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 02:28:20 pm
Trying to change the subject, are we?

Actually I watched all those videos, and to no surprise none of them provide convincing (or new) elements, see below.

The IMF offers loans according to a multitude of factors. That the loans were offered after the coup is proof of what exactly?

Self-proclaimed "geopolitical experts" (who seem only to have personal websites to their name) and emotionally supercharged commentary. Zero actual evidence of NATO, EU, US or IMF destabilization of Ukraine (supporting civil society and democratic institutions isn't the same as funding rebels or an uprising). Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.

RT News, emotionally supercharged, random interviewed individual with random views presented as some sort of authority. Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.


Pro-Western government doesn't imply a government that was installed by western agencies. For example, the last Belgian government was pro-western, and was elected democratically. The interviewed person never says or implies that EuroMaidan was orchestrated by western forces.

Same arguments I already showed to be inconclusive. Also, proof that the western conspiracy is supporting Maidan with cookies. Even more amusingly, "false flag operations" that are not even publicized by the "western propaganda machine" (ever hear of the Odessa fire in mainstream media? Not much if any).

They are only discussing subversion and overthrow if you absolutely insist on systematically interpreting what they say in that way. In fact it's all very generic commentary on pro-democracy protests and violent government response. They had almost the same talks about the Turkish anti-Erdogan protests.




The first thing that immediately strikes me as wrong with the "Maidan was a western coup" rethoric is that it wasn't even a coup, regardless of who or what caused it. For reference, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat is a coup (and one the US knowingly let happen even though they could prevent it). Notice the differences?

There we go, attacking the sources more than the information provided and the information you did absorb you blatantly reject as some form of propaganda from "random" indviduals... Nuland pretty much admits her complicity in the whole mess and you completely ignore that, there's something wrong up there inside your head.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 02:32:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 02:29:55 pm
You are just going to ignore me, are you?
Nah, he just doesn't know how multiple quotes work. Give him a few minutes...

Edit: See? :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:56:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 09, 2014, 02:31:27 pm
Ukraine is broke also BECAUSE they do war and its 100% sure mercenaries are involved. They always are, no need to find proof, because mercenaries are at their home in wars; and like prostitutes and smugglers, they will always exist.
You know, when you can choose - thousands of semi-free guys to arm and supply Vs few hundred of terribadly expensive ones... IDK, I would probably NOT choose the latter. But its speculation. Again - Occams Razor - its much more simple to equipe and send in guys who are already available and there instead of looking for something artificial and extra.


Quote from: Butan on September 09, 2014, 02:31:27 pm
I wouldnt be surprised Poroshenko oligarch circle used their personal wealth to assure they stay in a relative state of security and stability, else they would fall from power, "artificially" increasing the economical output of Ukraine.
Some very rich people in Ukraine are famously known for funding militia and investing in military projects, why not in mercs?
There is also the possibility of external help, hard to trace back to who and why and if they even exist!

The same is true for russian friendly oligarchs FROM UKRAINE, funding rebels and mercs. A part of the Yanukovitch oligarch circle remained loyal and are still "in action"; some became "neutral" and some joined the new government in their fight for territorial control.
This I was thinking of also, but as far as I'm aware - there are a few oligarchs, who are funding the batalions. They still can't supply heavy armor and other heavier weaponry, since by law it can be used by military only, but I believe that lighter troops ARE being armed by these oligarchs. Again - there is a readily available number of volunteers which are not as expensive as mercs. Private sector, despite their potential in corruption, is notoriously touchy about money, thus even more - why overpay, when you can take what you already have?
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:28:59 pm
Percentage of the vote does not equate the right sectors influence and complicity in the riots that preceded the coup. They were armed, and they had shot people and police, and they had sent death threats to Yanukovych and his family.
Now this lie you have to base on something. Preferably something better than the impartial putlers media and "I believe" (I'm not going to even suggest "I think" in this case).
You want to see armed coup? Look at Crimea. And look at failed attempt in eastern Ukraine. Maidan, compared to those two, WAS something one would call grass-roots event, while those other two... russia orchestrated bullshit AT BEST, blatant attack on Ukraine at worst.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on September 09, 2014, 03:05:36 pm
Murmi's logic is pretty shitty. However, if you believe that at least US (since there are no evidence supporting involvement of other Western govs) was not deeply engaged in Maidan and events after Maidan, you are beyond naive.

ONE phone conversation was intercepted and that was enough to sugest that US is actually deciding who should and who shouldn't be sitting in UKR government. How about hundreds of other phone conversations that public has no idea about?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 03:13:27 pm
Quote from: Corwin on September 09, 2014, 03:05:36 pm
Murmi's logic is pretty shitty. However, if you believe that at least US (since there are no evidence supporting involvement of other Western govs) was not deeply engaged in Maidan and events after Maidan, you are beyond naive.

ONE phone conversation was intercepted and that was enough to sugest that US is actually deciding who should and who shouldn't be sitting in UKR government. How about hundreds of other phone conversations that public has no idea about?
While I DO agree, that US HAD interests and WERE playing there, just as russians did, the "its only one intercepted call" card plays both ways. E.g. if this is THE WORST they could intercept and publish - their involvement is what I would expect, not something like "lets pump up propaganda and gather 100k people in the square to oust the president"...  :rolleyes: Btw - that last one - I don't thing it would have succeeded. Yanukovich tried and failed, so... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on September 09, 2014, 03:46:58 pm
Diplomats, as a rule, use safe methods of communication. I think US is more advanced in this than any other country. I don't think it is easy to intercept any kind of diplomatic communication of US. This incident was someones blunder.

Therefore, I don't think there were any other conversations that were intercepted and recorded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 03:48:06 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:31:36 pm
There we go, attacking the sources more than the information provided and the information you did absorb you blatantly reject as some form of propaganda from "random" indviduals...

The information provided is not proof of its own validity. Just because someone calls themselves the "truth channel" or "international expert" doesn't mean they tell the truth. Most of those videos don't even qualify as information, but rather commentary about information which is not revealed (because the actual information they are commenting on does not exist). It's quite amazing that "underground channels" seemingly encouraging critical thinking are so determined to interpret every piece of information following their own narrative without a shred of doubt. If you want some investigative journalism you have to highlight discrepancies in the supposedly biased narrative you are fighting, not build theories upon the facts and present them as the only possible interpretation.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 02:31:36 pm
Nuland pretty much admits her complicity in the whole mess and you completely ignore that, there's something wrong up there inside your head.

No, she does not. Even if we assume for a moment that the famous "leaked call" is not a fabrication (I can't prove one way or the other), what she said hardly qualifies as proof of a western-orchestrated overthrow of Yanukovich. She is talking about the negotiations to form an interim government capable of representing the EuroMaidan protesters and to organize new elections quickly. As the western powers are a logical ally of the new power in Ukraine, it only makes sense that they have an input in this. Such things happen between for example France and Germany at almost every election. Ukraine is independent of the RF and can choose with who they associate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 09, 2014, 04:13:52 pm
Quote from: Corwin on September 09, 2014, 03:46:58 pm
Diplomats, as a rule, use safe methods of communication. I think US is more advanced in this than any other country. I don't think it is easy to intercept any kind of diplomatic communication of US. This incident was someones blunder.

Therefore, I don't think there were any other conversations that were intercepted and recorded.
What makes you think that there aren't any other records made once there actually was access to the phone. Seems very unlikely to me that you happen to record just one single call when you're already "in".
Just someone screwing up seems even more unlikely when it happens with such an incriminating single call.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 04:29:45 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 09, 2014, 04:13:52 pm
What makes you think that there aren't any other records made once there actually was access to the phone. Seems very unlikely to me that you happen to record just one single call when you're already "in".
Just someone screwing up seems even more unlikely when it happens with such an incriminating single call.
They are made. But they are so TERRIBLE, that they would constitute Casus Belli from putlers side and he would have to go to war to protect his shortnessdignity for the good of his mojorussia!. So no-one wants to make them public. NWO does not allow it.

Tru story. Heard it inside my head!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 09, 2014, 06:04:43 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:56:30 pm
You know, when you can choose - thousands of semi-free guys to arm and supply Vs few hundred of terribadly expensive ones... IDK, I would probably NOT choose the latter. But its speculation. Again - Occams Razor - its much more simple to equipe and send in guys who are already available and there instead of looking for something artificial and extra.

Militias suck donkey dick in actual fight and they also cost money! I dont remember the exact pay, but probably a few hundreds dollars per month per head. Time this by 100-200 000 and you have quite a nice fuckton of money for a fuckton of green horns.

Numbers count ofc, but I wouldnt avoid investing 1% of that budget into reliable heavily armed and professionaly trained gentlemen who will do very hard damage wherever they go, and sometimes die before receiving paycheck!



Quote from: Kuujis on September 09, 2014, 02:56:30 pm
This I was thinking of also, but as far as I'm aware - there are a few oligarchs, who are funding the batalions. They still can't supply heavy armor and other heavier weaponry, since by law it can be used by military only, but I believe that lighter troops ARE being armed by these oligarchs. Again - there is a readily available number of volunteers which are not as expensive as mercs. Private sector, despite their potential in corruption, is notoriously touchy about money, thus even more - why overpay, when you can take what you already have?Now this lie you have to base on something. Preferably something better than the impartial putlers media and "I believe" (I'm not going to even suggest "I think" in this case).


Never said they were buying tanks and shit, at least not via direct channels, but a few of them have been very open about using their personal wealth to help their country.
I would not be surprised if other rich people were not "as open" in what they are doing right now in Ukraine, I can assume that there is a rich people coalition that is indirectly controlling part of the government, at least where money is heavily involved and a necessity that outpass reglementation and respect of the law.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 09, 2014, 07:25:55 pm
"18+ Це Україна / This is Ukraine (http://www.nsfwyoutube.com/watch?v=UnsNI1GULiA)"


Another video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIG2t2zZSHI) about an eyewitness reporting what he saw in eastern Ukraine. His report is not really welcome in the ukrainian "Junta-TV" (German and English subtitles)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 09, 2014, 07:35:13 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 09, 2014, 07:25:55 pm
"18+ Це Україна / This is Ukraine (http://www.nsfwyoutube.com/watch?v=UnsNI1GULiA)"


Another video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIG2t2zZSHI) about an eyewitness reporting what he saw in eastern Ukraine. His report is not really welcome in the ukrainian "Junta-TV" (German and English subtitles)
Russian propaganda usually isn't.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 09, 2014, 07:39:58 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 09, 2014, 07:35:13 pm
Russian propaganda usually isn't.
Say it to people who lost their relatives by this shelling
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 09, 2014, 07:40:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 09, 2014, 07:35:13 pm
Russian propaganda usually isn't.

I'm not sure if he is really telling the truth, but if he isn't, the people in the studio wouldn't stew about it...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 09, 2014, 08:26:58 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 09, 2014, 07:35:13 pm
Russian propaganda usually isn't.

Have you even watched the video, there is no propaganda.
The worst you can say is there is a concentration of non friendly facts that may not represent the whole situation.

My bad, didnt see second one  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 11:35:48 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 09, 2014, 03:48:06 pm
The information provided is not proof of its own validity. Just because someone calls themselves the "truth channel" or "international expert" doesn't mean they tell the truth. Most of those videos don't even qualify as information, but rather commentary about information which is not revealed (because the actual information they are commenting on does not exist). It's quite amazing that "underground channels" seemingly encouraging critical thinking are so determined to interpret every piece of information following their own narrative without a shred of doubt. If you want some investigative journalism you have to highlight discrepancies in the supposedly biased narrative you are fighting, not build theories upon the facts and present them as the only possible interpretation.

No, she does not. Even if we assume for a moment that the famous "leaked call" is not a fabrication (I can't prove one way or the other), what she said hardly qualifies as proof of a western-orchestrated overthrow of Yanukovich. She is talking about the negotiations to form an interim government capable of representing the EuroMaidan protesters and to organize new elections quickly. As the western powers are a logical ally of the new power in Ukraine, it only makes sense that they have an input in this. Such things happen between for example France and Germany at almost every election. Ukraine is independent of the RF and can choose with who they associate.

She is openly, heavily involving herself in Ukrainian politics and the way you go around talking is as if a nation on the other side of the globe should even have a say in the matter. American NGO's have been involved in regime change and attempted regime change in multiple nations, Ukraine is not the exception, rather is just the latest along a line of targets.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 11:39:44 pm
Quote from: Corwin on September 09, 2014, 03:05:36 pm
Murmi's logic is pretty shitty. However, if you believe that at least US (since there are no evidence supporting involvement of other Western govs) was not deeply engaged in Maidan and events after Maidan, you are beyond naive.

ONE phone conversation was intercepted and that was enough to sugest that US is actually deciding who should and who shouldn't be sitting in UKR government. How about hundreds of other phone conversations that public has no idea about?

My logic is not shitty. Many geopolitical analysts who've made geopolitics their life work have made comments on the Ukrainian situation contrary to the version of events shown by the Western press and governments. Nobodies like Kafeine may attempt to discredit these analysts but they have far more legitimacy and credibility than any example Kafeine and anyone in the pro-NATO anti-Russia camp on this forum can provide. I'll back my shit up and then it's picked apart by ignorant comments and the expected attacks on the source of the information and the disregarding of the open complicity displayed by American officials such as Nuland and Mccaine, but when I ask for these opposing parties to back their shit up, nothing.

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/us-atempts-to-overthrow-russian.html

Based on many of the responses here, it's as though Kafine, Molly, Kuujis will only believe the U.S, and NATO states are involved in anything only if they admit to it, if they don't admit to it then they can't have done it, that's the kind of logic I'm up against and you attack my logic? Completely laughable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 10, 2014, 12:00:13 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 11:39:44 pm
My logic is not shitty.

Your sources are too


Seriously, the hell is up with that blog? It's AMTV levels of ridiculous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 10, 2014, 12:00:48 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 11:35:48 pm
She is openly, heavily involving herself in Ukrainian politics and the way you go around talking is as if a nation on the other side of the globe should even have a say in the matter.

But one with a common border should? Not that I think Russia should have been kept out of the negotiations, though. Also, you (I'm kidding, pretty much everybody holding the same views, not just you) are making quite a big deal of that presentation. Do you even know how presentations work? She's trying to sell her work to the audience. Trying to interpret her wording literally is about as productive as doing the same thing with the Bible.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 11:35:48 pm
American NGO's have been involved in regime change and attempted regime change in multiple nations, Ukraine is not the exception, rather is just the latest along a line of targets.

Your random claims are passionating.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 11:39:44 pm
My logic is not shitty. Many geopolitical analysts who've made geopolitics their life work have made comments on the Ukrainian situation contrary to the version of events shown by the Western press. Nobodies like Kafeine may attempt to discredit these analysts but they have far more legitimacy and credibility than any example Kafeine and anyone in the pro-NATO anti-Russia camp on this forum can provide. I'll back my shit up and then it's picked apart by ignorant comments and the expected attacks on the source of the information and the disregarding of the open complicity displayed by American officials such as Nuland and Mccaine, but when I ask for these opposing parties to back their shit up, nothing.

What are we discussing exactly? "My experts are better than yours!"? Is that what we are talking about? As you may have noticed I didn't back my analysis of your arguments with the words of anybody. I discussed the facts critically and pointed out the problems with your narrative, something none of your so-called experts did. In other words I don't need anything to back my shit up, because my shit is trivially inferred from the facts that we both admit are true.

Also please refer to me as "Kafein" not "Kafeine" it makes me feel you do that on purpose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 10, 2014, 12:04:50 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 10, 2014, 12:00:48 am
Also please refer to me as "Kafein" not "Kafeine"

'Ready to rock if you want to roll
Please step away from the vehicule'

Clutch - Kafeine

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 10, 2014, 12:09:29 am
Quote from: Christo on September 10, 2014, 12:04:50 am
'Ready to rock if you want to roll
Please step away from the vehicule'

Clutch - Kafeine

(click to show/hide)

vehicule is drama enough for dramaturge

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 09, 2014, 11:39:44 pm
Based on many of the responses here, it's as though Kafine, Molly, Kuujis will only believe the U.S, and NATO states are involved in anything only if they admit to it, if they don't admit to it then they can't have done it, that's the kind of logic I'm up against and you attack my logic? Completely laughable.

Where exactly did I say that? Where did any of "Kafine, Molly, Kuujis" say that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 10, 2014, 12:13:17 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 10, 2014, 12:09:29 am
Where did any of "Kafine, Molly, Kuujis" say that?

I dont know for Molly and Kuujis, they are well known nefarious creatures, but Kafine is completely innocent!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:05:58 am
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ca_1410295489

Watch with caution, includes horrific scenes of mutilated and burned soldiers. One hour and twenty two minutes of footage on the ground in East Ukraine. War is hell, we all sit here comfortably squabbling over our views on the situation when it's the people in that situation who pay the highest price.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 10, 2014, 12:00:48 am
But one with a common border should? Not that I think Russia should have been kept out of the negotiations, though. Also, you (I'm kidding, pretty much everybody holding the same views, not just you) are making quite a big deal of that presentation. Do you even know how presentations work? She's trying to sell her work to the audience. Trying to interpret her wording literally is about as productive as doing the same thing with the Bible.

Your random claims are passionating.

What are we discussing exactly? "My experts are better than yours!"? Is that what we are talking about? As you may have noticed I didn't back my analysis of your arguments with the words of anybody. I discussed the facts critically and pointed out the problems with your narrative, something none of your so-called experts did. In other words I don't need anything to back my shit up, because my shit is trivially inferred from the facts that we both admit are true.

Also please refer to me as "Kafein" not "Kafeine" it makes me feel you do that on purpose.

I haven't been providing examples to back my analysis of the situation, I've been providing examples that back an alternate analysis to the situation portrayed by Western governments and the Western media. Since that's what your analysis and understanding of the situation stems from, a mind set formed by a Western narrative.

This has never really started off being about personal criticism or attacks, picking holes in the logic of the other, it started off with sharing opinions on the situation, and then justifying them opinions with analysis and opinions shared by experts in their field, numerous media sources, video footage and varying perspectives on the circumstances in and around the Ukrainian civil war and the involved parties in it. It only started really becoming personal, about attacks on a persons logic, their credibility, their knowledge on the subject when individuals on the thread are worn down by the endless cheap remarks and name calling tossed around by Molly, Xant, Christo and more.

In the end this thread is pointless, we could all be accused of having our heads in the sand to a degree and from varying perspectives, and I don't think we'll ever agree to disagree, therefore I'm tempted to cease posting on this thread purely based on that fact. After all, we all deserve to have an opinion but I doubt a crappy thread in a shitty corner of the internet on a dying mod will make much difference to world events. Let's just enjoy the ride and we'll find out who was right in the end, maybe?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 10, 2014, 03:48:57 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
therefore I'm tempted to cease posting on this thread

Oho. I remember something like this.

Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.

I will hold to your word!

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
It only started really becoming personal, about attacks on a persons logic, their credibility, their knowledge on the subject when individuals on the thread are worn down by the endless cheap remarks and name calling tossed around by Molly, Xant, Christo and more.

; - ; looks like I stepped over a red line, and got sanctioned, then blacklisted by Murmillus  :-(





Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 10, 2014, 08:30:28 am
Western propaganda is so obvious that only dumb people can believe it. But a lot of people just don't care because they don't believe in war in Europe is possible.

The good question is : can we just stand and listen their propaganda until the war without any reaction ?  Russia don't want a war and isn't a threat for Europe. But NATO, as an institution, need an enemy and a war to survive. The Empire need this to justify his military presence in Europe and to sell more weapons ( a major industry in the USA). They want to place anti-missiles system and missile launchers in Ukraine to threathen Russia. They want to destabilize Russia before they strengthen their alliance with China.
In fact, we are already at war with Russia. NATO soldiers and western mercenaries fight against russian soldiers (volunteers or not).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 08:52:58 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 10, 2014, 08:30:28 am
Western propaganda is so obvious that only dumb people can believe it. But a lot of people just don't care because they don't believe in war in Europe is possible.

The good question is : can we just stand and listen their propaganda until the war without any reaction ?  Russia don't want a war and isn't a threat for Europe. But NATO, as an institution, need an enemy and a war to survive. The Empire need this to justify his military presence in Europe and to sell more weapons ( a major industry in the USA). They want to place anti-missiles system and missile launchers in Ukraine to threathen Russia. They want to destabilize Russia before they strengthen their alliance with China.
In fact, we are already at war with Russia. NATO soldiers and western mercenaries fight against russian soldiers (volunteers or not).
MAN, this just ASKS to be corrected.

Western russian propaganda is so obvious that only dumb people can believe it. But a lot of people just don't care because they don't believe in war in Europe is possible.

The good question is : can we just stand and listen their propaganda until the war without any reaction ?  Russia Western countries don't want a war and isn't a threat for Europethey aren't a threat to russia, they just want to do business. But NATOrussia, as an institutiona proper inheritor to CCCP mentality, need an enemy and a war to survive. The Empire need this to justify his military presence in Europe foreign and sovereign countries and to sell more weapons ( a major industry in the USA)to keep internal problems on secont page, instead focusing on imaginary "external" enemies. They want to place anti-missiles system invaded numerous neighboring countries and missile launchers in Ukraine annexed parts of them to threathen Russia thus threatening peace in Europe. They want to have destabilized Russia Europe, before they strengthenand now the last place they have left to go is their alliance with China.
In fact, we are already at war with Russiaimaginary enemies. NATO russian soldiers and western (I'm shocked, this last word needs no FIXING! mercenaries fight against russian (I'm please you use proper capitalization for "russia", even if only once) Ukrainian soldiers (volunteers or not).

So yea, THANK YOU!  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 10, 2014, 09:05:38 am
When Murmillus Prime and Tovi combine, they turn into the dreaded Retardus_Tovi, the ultimate retard machine. None can oppose their broken logic and hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 10, 2014, 09:34:14 am
Am I famous now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 09:59:34 am
Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2014, 09:34:14 am
Am I famous now?
When you race against Murmi - I would skip bragging about winning  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 10, 2014, 10:32:01 am
Kuujis, you just prove that western  propaganda works with dumb people.

Look : a truce is approved by both factions.  What the West is doing ? Sanctions... just this could proove our governments don't want a peace. They want to win the war and crush Russia. Are you so stupid to believe that Russia wants to invade Europa ??
USA just apply Brezinsky doctrine, wich is very dangerous for the peace in Europe, and for the rest of the world (especially in Asia and Middle East).
The US empire drive revolutions and destabilization all around the world, but they would act differently in Ukraine ? Who is so naïve to believe this ? Poles and Lithuanians, only, because they hate Russia.

Porochenko wants a truce, because he's scared to suffer a new revolution. But Obama and NATO push to continue the war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 10, 2014, 10:32:40 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 08:52:58 am
MAN, this just ASKS to be corrected.

Western russian propaganda is so obvious that only dumb people can believe it. But a lot of people just don't care because they don't believe in war in Europe is possible.

The good question is : can we just stand and listen their propaganda until the war without any reaction ?  Russia Western countries don't want a war and isn't a threat for Europethey aren't a threat to russia, they just want to do business. But NATOrussia, as an institutiona proper inheritor to CCCP mentality, need an enemy and a war to survive. The Empire need this to justify his military presence in Europe foreign and sovereign countries and to sell more weapons ( a major industry in the USA)to keep internal problems on secont page, instead focusing on imaginary "external" enemies. They want to place anti-missiles system invaded numerous neighboring countries and missile launchers in Ukraine annexed parts of them to threathen Russia thus threatening peace in Europe. They want to have destabilized Russia Europe, before they strengthenand now the last place they have left to go is their alliance with China.
In fact, we are already at war with Russiaimaginary enemies. NATO russian soldiers and western (I'm shocked, this last word needs no FIXING! mercenaries fight against russian (I'm please you use proper capitalization for "russia", even if only once) Ukrainian soldiers (volunteers or not).

So yea, THANK YOU!  8-)

Congratulations, Kuujis, you completely fell victim to our western propaganda media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 10, 2014, 10:45:52 am
What about the victims of the crash...


strange
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 11:04:35 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 10, 2014, 10:32:01 am
Kuujis, you just prove that western  propaganda works with dumb people.

Look : a truce is approved by both factions.  What the West is doing ? Sanctions... just this could proove our governments don't want a peace. They want to win the war and crush Russia. Are you so stupid to believe that Russia wants to invade Europa ??
USA just apply Brezinsky doctrine, wich is very dangerous for the peace in Europe, and for the rest of the world (especially in Asia and Middle East).
The US empire drive revolutions and destabilization all around the world, but they would act differently in Ukraine ? Who is so naïve to believe this ? Poles and Lithuanians, only, because they hate Russia.

Porochenko wants a truce, because he's scared to suffer a new revolution. But Obama and NATO push to continue the war.

Ok, lets LOOK. Sanctions are saying that what russia is doing in Ukraine is BS of extraordinary scale. Did russia stop? I don't think so. Truce condition talks about russian heavy weaponry and troops leaving Ukraine. I didn't see anyone confirming that, vice versa - several sources though. INCLUDING buildupf of forces on nothern parts of Crimea. Probably more soldiers on vacations plowing fields with the tanks... right?

Its like if "russia is stealing 1000 dollars", they already stole 500, others say "Stop and give it back, until then - you will be in jail", now russia imagines that "I stopped stealing, let me out of jail now! I am good, reasonable and trustworthy to keep to my word". Which did NOT happen in the past on NUMEROUS occasions. So once again - why is it that the sanctions should be cancelled?

I'm not even going to comment on your conspiracy theories and "doctrines", keep them to yourself :)

Quote from: Anuran on September 10, 2014, 10:32:40 am
Congratulations, Kuujis, you completely fell victim to our western propaganda media.
My god... what an expert. Shall I cry already?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 10, 2014, 11:05:41 am
"They were all in something green D:"
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

 :rolleyes:

"No blood anywhere" she said while showing pictures of fire fighters spraying the place with high-pressure water...

...but I bet it was that Malaysian plane that disappeared some weeks before. All planned and executed by the CIA!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 11:07:37 am
Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2014, 11:05:41 am
"They were all in something green D:"
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

 :rolleyes:

"No blood anywhere" she said while showing pictures of fire fighters spraying the place with high-pressure water...

...but I bet it was that Malaysian plane that disappeared some weeks before. All planned and executed by the CIA!
Everyone knows that ZOMBIES have something to do with ugly-green colours. THAT'S what happened...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 10, 2014, 11:07:56 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 10, 2014, 10:45:52 am
What about the victims of the crash...


strange

That's interesting. I have read about a theory that MH17 could be the missing MH370 flight...


A few weeks ago I have seen a similar video about the victims:


This is the video which is meant by "previous films":
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 10, 2014, 11:10:05 am
My inner thriller book reader loves the theory that the crashed plane is the missing 370, all part of a big conspiracy. Alas, anyone with any common sense will instantly realize there's no way it's true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 10, 2014, 11:18:15 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 11:04:35 am
Ok, lets LOOK. Sanctions are saying that what russia is doing in Ukraine is BS of extraordinary scale. Did russia stop? I don't think so. Truce condition talks about russian heavy weaponry and troops leaving Ukraine. I didn't see anyone confirming that, vice versa - several sources though. INCLUDING buildupf of forces on nothern parts of Crimea. Probably more soldiers on vacations plowing fields with the tanks... right?

Its like if "russia is stealing 1000 dollars", they already stole 500, others say "Stop and give it back, until then - you will be in jail", now russia imagines that "I stopped stealing, let me out of jail now! I am good, reasonable and trustworthy to keep to my word". Which did NOT happen in the past on NUMEROUS occasions. So once again - why is it that the sanctions should be cancelled?

I'm not even going to comment on your conspiracy theories and "doctrines", keep them to yourself :)
My god... what an expert. Shall I cry already?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on September 10, 2014, 11:24:26 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 11:04:35 am


Its like if "russia is stealing 1000 dollars", they already stole 500, others say "Stop and give it back, until then - you will be in jail", now russia imagines that "I stopped stealing, let me out of jail now! I am good, reasonable and trustworthy to keep to my word". Which did NOT happen in the past on NUMEROUS occasions. So once again - why is it that the sanctions should be cancelled?



Because international politics is not governed by principles. Simple as that. Even in democratic countries, principles apply inside, but never in foreign policy. Because they can't afford that.

These sanctions would cost dearly both Germany and France, and they are looking for any excuse not to go through with them. This truce provides them with that excuse.

Have in mind that Medvedev, who is probably bluffing but you never know, threatened to close Russian sI love you for air companies from Europe. That would very quickly bancrupt bunch of companies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 10, 2014, 11:29:55 am
Quote from: Corwin on September 10, 2014, 11:24:26 am
Because international politics is not governed by principles. Simple as that. Even in democratic countries, principles apply inside, but never in foreign policy. Because they can't afford that.

These sanctions would cost dearly both Germany and France, and they are looking for any excuse not to go through with them. This truce provides them with that excuse.

Have in mind that Medvedev, who is probably bluffing but you never know, threatened to close Russian sI love you for air companies from Europe. That would very quickly bancrupt bunch of companies.
Not really.
https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/NationalEconomyEnvironment/ForeignTrade/TradingPartners/Current.html (https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/NationalEconomyEnvironment/ForeignTrade/TradingPartners/Current.html)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

As I said before: German exports are wide spread. Only big issue would be Gas deliveries.
Just a few single companies have big ties to Russia, making up 3/4 of the whole business, mainly in raw materials and energy.

Dunno about France tbh. Maybe Merkel is more tied to France on this, them having bigger ties to Russia all together.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 10, 2014, 11:41:58 am
Quote from: Anuran on September 10, 2014, 11:18:15 am
(click to show/hide)
Not sure if trolling or irony... :?

I will cry if trolling AND irony  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on September 10, 2014, 11:59:04 am
Read what Wall Street Journal has to say about that:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/german-businesses-feel-chill-over-sanctions-on-russia-1410277140

Its not abotu export, you have bunch of investments in Russia which you would be hurting directly.

The Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/germany-economy-eurozone-recovery-russia-sanctions

"Hostility between the west and Vladimir Putin over Russia's treatment of Ukraine is already hurting the German economy, according to a closely watched survey of investor mood."


These are not Russian nor Ukrainian sources, but two among the most credible Western media outlets. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 10, 2014, 01:31:39 pm
I didn't say it has no impact, I am merely saying that Germany won't be hit as hard as some people make it out to be.

Edit: Should have read the articles before replying :lol:
Neither of those 2 articles is even about the cold hard numbers but about how financial investors feel and how mid-class businesses are afraid. :D
Yes, very interesting but nothing more than reading the dirt in a cup of coffee unfortunately :wink:

Should have posted something about the GDP. Those numbers actually show something reliable. Even if I could argue properly "against" those...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Charlemagne_De_Kingsmith on September 10, 2014, 03:05:49 pm
Funny vid I came across a while back.



Sorry if this has been posted already

Oh another

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 10, 2014, 05:50:09 pm
http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/09/iss-astronauts-could-be-pawns-in-russia-ukraine-conflict/

Well, that's just sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 10, 2014, 07:55:29 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
I haven't been providing examples to back my analysis of the situation, I've been providing examples that back an alternate analysis to the situation portrayed by Western governments and the Western media.

What examples are you talking about? Did anyone even talk about examples in this thread? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
Since that's what your analysis and understanding of the situation stems from, a mind set formed by a Western narrative.

I never said or implied that. More importantly, what mindset I have is irrelevant as I'm discussing the videos you posted and forming a rebuttal. I am not expressing an opinion.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
This has never really started off being about personal criticism or attacks, picking holes in the logic of the other

Showing someone that whatever view they express is incoherent, is not a personal attack. There's a difference between "what you say is dumb here's why" and "you're dumb". I did the former.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
, it started off with sharing opinions on the situation, and then justifying them opinions with analysis and opinions shared by experts in their field, numerous media sources, video footage and varying perspectives on the circumstances in and around the Ukrainian civil war and the involved parties in it.

I think we are way past the step at which we shared our opinions (or the opinion of whatever other person) now.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
It only started really becoming personal, about attacks on a persons logic

"a person's logic" is a nonsensical statement. There's not one logic per person. There's only one logic.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
, their credibility, their knowledge on the subject when individuals on the thread are worn down by the endless cheap remarks and name calling tossed around by Molly, Xant, Christo and more.

No comment. I think you (as well as me, a few pages back) have done your share of that too.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
In the end this thread is pointless, we could all be accused of having our heads in the sand to a degree and from varying perspectives, and I don't think we'll ever agree to disagree, therefore I'm tempted to cease posting on this thread purely based on that fact.

This thread isn't pointless. I have shown that from premises that we all hold true (such as "the RF banned imports of some western products") regardless of our opinions, we can unequivocally deduce elements that are coherent with one theory but not another. It's not about opinions.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 10, 2014, 01:14:37 am
After all, we all deserve to have an opinion but I doubt a crappy thread in a shitty corner of the internet on a dying mod will make much difference to world events. Let's just enjoy the ride and we'll find out who was right in the end, maybe?

Sharing opinions and comparing them is nice. We can civilly argue about what makes one theory or the other more credible. And more importantly we can do so based on facts, not only conjecture. We actually have a lot of facts to go on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 10, 2014, 08:28:40 pm
common guys so many letters! Try to use more pictures instead!  :evil:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 10, 2014, 08:58:57 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 10, 2014, 11:49:16 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 10, 2014, 05:50:09 pm
http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/09/iss-astronauts-could-be-pawns-in-russia-ukraine-conflict/

Well, that's just sad.


God help us, people will need Russian-issued passport when they go to Crimea.

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 12:29:12 am
Quote from: Butan on September 10, 2014, 11:49:16 pm
God help us, people will need Russian-issued passport when they go to Crimea.

(click to show/hide)

Actually all cooperation with Roscosmos was forbidden to NASA employees except on the ISS back in April already, so this has real consequences on research. It seems that this means a considerable portion of the already small NASA budget will be directed towards redeploying the infrastructure for manned launches on american soil.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 11, 2014, 12:37:10 am
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run.
Iirc there were a few mishaps a while back during starts?
Not during manned launches ofc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 12:40:24 am
I think the main advantage from the NASA point of view is that they don't have to give millions to the Russians for something that they can do better and cheaper themselves. Only the motivation for such a long term investment lacked.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 01:11:33 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on September 09, 2014, 07:16:54 am
Okay, even according to your "proof":

1. The guy is who?
2. This guy speaks Russian so he's obviously not a mercenary. Also he doesn't look like an Azov material, I mean really - a guy who speaks Russian and can't spell accents correctly in the name of his own country doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi"
3. Azov is not Army. It's a volunteer battalion of National Guard which is a part of Police.
4. Where are mercenaries themselves?

I mean if you get this as proof, why don't you get official acknowledged Russian military soldiers/officers as proof speaking about Russia's intentions (I mean those latest videos of captured Russian airborne). Nobody should trust such videos because even if the person is real - he'll say a lot of things he wouldn't say being free including words that people who are interviewing him want to hear.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-na zis

I quote...

"The battalion has even drawn far-right volunteers from abroad, such as Mikael Skillt, a 37-year-old Swede, trained as a sniper in the Swedish army, who described himself as an "ethnic nationalist" and fights on the front line with the battalion."

Since Russian/Rebel sources don't convince you. Cus you know, I just post shit that doesn't prove anything because I'm a retard that doesn't know anything..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 11, 2014, 07:58:29 am
ahh, forget it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 09:31:09 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 01:11:33 am
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-na zis

I quote...

"The battalion has even drawn far-right volunteers from abroad, such as Mikael Skillt, a 37-year-old Swede, trained as a sniper in the Swedish army, who described himself as an "ethnic nationalist" and fights on the front line with the battalion."

Since Russian/Rebel sources don't convince you. Cus you know, I just post shit that doesn't prove anything because I'm a retard that doesn't know anything..
I QUOTE:
"The battalion has even drawn far-right volunteers from abroad, such as Mikael Skillt, a 37-year-old Swede, trained as a sniper in the Swedish army, who described himself as an "ethnic nationalist" and fights on the front line with the battalion."

Where are the mercs? :)

Also - the same article points out, that the most hardcore Azov is approximately the same shit you can find prevalent on separatists side, so why do you call only one side naztees consistently, without attributing the same shit-talk to the other?
Indeed, much of what Azov members say about race and nationalism is strikingly similar to the views of the more radical Russian nationalists fighting with the separatist side. The battalion even has a Russian volunteer, a 30-year-old from St Petersburg who refused to give his name.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 11, 2014, 10:43:04 am
No no, Kuujis, you're doing it wrong again. You have to quote more selective.
Besides, by definition of the term you can not be Nazi and Russian. They are social caring communists. Only enemies of Mother Russia can be Nazis...
Do I have to explain everything to you?! :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 11, 2014, 11:21:03 am
Sooooooo.... can anyone tell me why "mercenaries" are intrinsically bad? As if they're any different than most of the world's soldiers who aren't blinded by patriotism and/or religion, and still choose to fight? Or are only fanatics allowed to wage war?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:42:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 09:31:09 am
I QUOTE:
"The battalion has even drawn far-right volunteers from abroad, such as Mikael Skillt, a 37-year-old Swede, trained as a sniper in the Swedish army, who described himself as an "ethnic nationalist" and fights on the front line with the battalion."

Where are the mercs? :)

Also - the same article points out, that the most hardcore Azov is approximately the same shit you can find prevalent on separatists side, so why do you call only one side naztees consistently, without attributing the same shit-talk to the other?
Indeed, much of what Azov members say about race and nationalism is strikingly similar to the views of the more radical Russian nationalists fighting with the separatist side. The battalion even has a Russian volunteer, a 30-year-old from St Petersburg who refused to give his name.

I quote from the same article.

"Other volunteer battalions have also come under the spotlight. This week, Amnesty International called on the Ukrainian government to investigate rights abuses and possible executions by the Aidar, another battalion"

It's not an isolated case. For the first time since Na zi-Germany a European nation is utilising Na zi units in battle. This of course further lends VALID justification toward the East Ukrainian separatists cause. There are Na zi's bombing and killing civilians in their own country and they've been ordered there by the coup installed Western backed government.

Just because someone volunteers to join a conflict does not mean they are then not paid a living wage or payment for their role.

It's not all Russia propaganda, it's fucking truth. COLD HARD TRUTH.

Suck it down.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 11, 2014, 11:55:52 am
Quote from: Xant on September 11, 2014, 11:21:03 am
Sooooooo.... can anyone tell me why "mercenaries" are intrinsically bad? As if they're any different than most of the world's soldiers who aren't blinded by patriotism and/or religion, and still choose to fight? Or are only fanatics allowed to wage war?



Its not about mercs being bad or not, but fighting for both side or not.
Of course, mercenaries are known as "bad" by the common people, hence why it has been used to show that the rebels are "bad", if there is mercenaries fighting for them.
Hence why it is important to adress the "mercs fighting for rebels only" mistake, if only to show the truth, to prove a new equality ground.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 11, 2014, 12:02:38 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 11, 2014, 11:55:52 am

 :lol:

The semantic bipolar strike again.


Its not about mercs being bad or not, but fighting for both side or not.
And you would have to be stupid to not know that mercenaries are known as "bad" by the common people, hence why it is important to adress the "mercs fighting for rebels only" issue when its used to show the rebellion as "bad", which is a two fold stupidity.
There, there.

Anyone not retarded, i.e., capable of understanding the question, feel like trying to justify it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 11, 2014, 12:04:12 pm
Being stupid = feeling the need to unprove things?

Then you're the most fanatically stupid person on this forum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 11, 2014, 12:05:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 11, 2014, 12:04:12 pm
Being stupid = feeling the need to unprove things?

Then you're the most fanatically stupid person on this forum.
Have you taken your medication recently? You're literally going on about things that only exist in your own head for the last few posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 11, 2014, 12:04:12 pm
Being stupid = feeling the need to unprove things?

Then you're the most fanatically stupid person on this forum.

Kuuji's comes close, very close.

On another note.. The brainwashing begins.. Although judging by some of the commenters on this thread it had began a long time ago..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c5_1410422663 (Ukrainian kids chanting "Glory to Ukraine", "Death to enemies" among other things..)..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 12:58:06 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
Kuuji's comes close, very close.

On another note.. The brainwashing begins.. Although judging by some of the commenters on this thread it had began a long time ago..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c5_1410422663 (Ukrainian kids chanting "Glory to Ukraine", "Death to enemies" among other things..)..
Oh Murmi. I know you lie, so I'm not angry at you and I will not cry. This time. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:42:56 am
It's not an isolated case. For the first time since Na zi-Germany a European nation is utilising Na zi units in battle. This of course further lends VALID justification toward the East Ukrainian separatists cause. There are Na zi's bombing and killing civilians in their own country and they've been ordered there by the coup installed Western backed government.

Just because someone volunteers to join a conflict does not mean they are then not paid a living wage or payment for their role.

It's not all Russia propaganda, it's fucking truth. COLD HARD TRUTH.

Suck it down.

Sucking truth down like a lemon like a baus!!!

By this definition of mercenary ALL armies are full of mercenaries. Because they get paid.

</whenfacepalmisnotenough>
Really? REALLY REALLY?

From the same article:
Despite the desire of many in the Azov to bring violence to Kiev when the war in the east is over, the battalion receives funding and assistance from the governor of Donetsk region, the oligarch Serhiy Taruta. An aide to Taruta, Alex Kovzhun, said the political views of individual members of Azov were not an issue, and denied that the battalion's symbol had chocolate chip cookie undertones.

"The views of some of them is their own affair as long as they do not break the law," said Kovzhun in written answers to questions. "And the symbol is not chocolate chip cookie. Trust me – some of my family died in concentration camps, so I have a well-developed nose for chocolate chip cookie shit."

I think what you MISSED in the whole article is the idea, that the guys who were fighting russians intend to go back to Kiev and install proper Junta, which IS worrying, because compared to current legitimate government - the newly installed one would be a HUGE step back for Ukraine, IF it indeed wants to start moving westwards, instead of stay as a satellite of russia, akin to how Belorussia is now.

Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2014, 10:43:04 am
No no, Kuujis, you're doing it wrong again. You have to quote more selective.
Besides, by definition of the term you can not be Nazi and Russian. They are social caring communists. Only enemies of Mother Russia can be Nazis...
Do I have to explain everything to you?! :lol:
Mea culpa Molly, I have deviated from putler approved wording there. I will do everything I can to do it again and again. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 01:06:17 pm
For example you like your country very much, and you appreciate what the ruler of your country made for people inside it, and if someone starts to insult the ruler and people of this country, must he be muted for that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 01:23:22 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 01:06:17 pm
For example you like your country very much, and you appreciate what the ruler of your country made for people inside it, and if someone starts to insult the ruler and people of this country, must he be muted for that?
No. If you can't stand the heat - don't go into politics. There is this funny thing about freedom of speech: it exists in some places  :shock:

What are you aiming at?

For a second, I will asssume you talk about putler. Do you know, how an alternative to him could have acted? Maybe spent 10 bil, instead of 50 on olympic games and the rest on schools? Maybe instead of guarding oligarchs from populace, guarded the populace from oligarchs? It's speculation, I know, but I pity you, if "stability" is what you consider "good enough". I know one too many russian guys, who I had the pleasure working with, who got out of russia as soon as they could, because "raising kids here... I don't want that. My parents don't want that either." (these are the last guys exact words).

As for insults - once pulter stops acting like einstein - I will stop calling him putler and will start writing russia with proper capitalization. I find the look and sound are quite spot on for now, if not to everyones tastes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 01:42:49 pm
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
(Matthew 7:3-5)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 01:52:17 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 12:58:06 pm
Oh Murmi. I know you lie, so I'm not angry at you and I will not cry. This time. :rolleyes:

Sucking truth down like a lemon like a baus!!!

By this definition of mercenary ALL armies are full of mercenaries. Because they get paid.

</whenfacepalmisnotenough>
Really? REALLY REALLY?

From the same article:
Despite the desire of many in the Azov to bring violence to Kiev when the war in the east is over, the battalion receives funding and assistance from the governor of Donetsk region, the oligarch Serhiy Taruta. An aide to Taruta, Alex Kovzhun, said the political views of individual members of Azov were not an issue, and denied that the battalion's symbol had chocolate chip cookie undertones.

"The views of some of them is their own affair as long as they do not break the law," said Kovzhun in written answers to questions. "And the symbol is not chocolate chip cookie. Trust me – some of my family died in concentration camps, so I have a well-developed nose for chocolate chip cookie shit."

I think what you MISSED in the whole article is the idea, that the guys who were fighting russians intend to go back to Kiev and install proper Junta, which IS worrying, because compared to current legitimate government - the newly installed one would be a HUGE step back for Ukraine, IF it indeed wants to start moving westwards, instead of stay as a satellite of russia, akin to how Belorussia is now.
Mea culpa Molly, I have deviated from putler approved wording there. I will do everything I can to do it again and again. :rolleyes:

We all lie, it's a part of being human, however please cite one instance of me blatantly lying here on this thread please. I have never intentionally lied to anyone here, so after calling me a liar to often just fucking prove it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 01:53:12 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 01:42:49 pm
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
(Matthew 7:3-5)

Oh no you didn't :D

Shall I search for the section of bible, where a jew offers his 3 doughters to an angry gay mob, so that they would not fuck two guests who appeared at his doorsteps out of nowhere?  :mrgreen:

For the record - you DON'T want to hear the whole long tirade about my current government and what it could be doing better. Its boring and too long:P So keep your beams, mote and whatever else you want :)

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 01:52:17 pm
We all lie, it's a part of being human, however please cite one instance of me blatantly lying here on this thread please. I have never intentionally lied to anyone here, so after calling me a liar to often just fucking prove it.
I can't. You will not listen and/or ignore what I post :rolleyes:

Besides, I don't want to make you cry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 01:58:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 01:53:12 pm
Oh no you didn't :D

Shall I search for the section of bible, where a jew offers his 3 doughters to an angry gay mob, so that they would not fuck two guests who appeared at his doorsteps out of nowhere?  :mrgreen:

For the record - you DON'T want to hear the whole long tirade about my current government and what it could be doing better. Its boring and too long:P So keep your beams, mote and whatever else you want :)
I can't. You will not listen and/or ignore what I post :rolleyes:

Besides, I don't want to make you cry.

You can't prove that I'm a liar but you call me a liar? That makes you a liar. And in-case you ask, the proof is in this statement and all the times you've recently decided to start calling me a liar.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 02:08:10 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 01:53:12 pm

Shall I search for the section of bible, where a jew offers his 3 doughters to an angry gay mob, so that they would not fuck two guests who appeared at his doorsteps out of nowhere?  :mrgreen:
And because of that Sodom and Hommora were destroyed totally. This two guests were angels, and you really don't know their traditions, Lot wasn't a jew by the way, there weren't any jews that time :mrgreen: Don't show your knowledges, then others can think that you are smart.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 11, 2014, 02:11:42 pm
(click to show/hide)
  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on September 11, 2014, 02:13:02 pm
Wtf Vovka?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 11, 2014, 02:22:22 pm
Who dat guy is?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 11, 2014, 02:32:06 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 11, 2014, 02:22:22 pm
Who dat guy is?  :lol:
i think it 2 differend guys just look similar
Semen Semenchenko and Legolas
Quote from: Corwin on September 11, 2014, 02:13:02 pm
Wtf Vovka?
I can not allow to such a wonderful topic turned into a discussion about angels and the Bible
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:14:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 02:08:10 pm
And because of that Sodom and Hommora were destroyed totally. This two guests were angels, and you really don't know their traditions, Lot wasn't a jew by the way, there weren't any jews that time :mrgreen: Don't show your knowledges, then others can think that you are smart.
Oh I know, thats why I pulled it out ;)

I also know, that it was not (and supposedly SHOULD NOT be NOW) considered an evil act to do, because women worth was supposedly that much lower. But who gives a shit frankly. Tell me when you will start evaluating putlers BS in Ukraine not via the russian media prism "they are all naztee junta and we must protect russians" and then we can talk without poles, beams, bible and lemons.

Quote from: Vovka on September 11, 2014, 02:32:06 pm
i think it 2 differend guys just look similar
Semen Semenchenko and LegolasI can not allow to such a wonderful topic turned into a discussion about angels and the Bible
I am zorry, I shall suck lemons and cry now!

To get back on topic: I am amazed about Ukraine once again. In bad light this time. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraine-starts-building-defensive-wall-along-border-with-russia/506828.html This did not work in pre-WW2 France, but ... what the serious fuck? :/

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 01:52:17 pm
We all lie, it's a part of being human, however please cite one instance of me blatantly lying here on this thread please. I have never intentionally lied to anyone here, so after calling me a liar to often just fucking prove it.
Now you just do name calling.

Ok, how about this:
you call volunteers mercenaries, because they get wages.
You repeatedly call Ukraine army naztees, although by all reports - there is AT BEST a minority of those, at worst - they are what one would call far-rightists, present in any society.
You repeat, that there are naztees in power in Ukraine, although there are no proofs of that, besides RT style channels.
You call me dumb (DUH!, an obvious lie).

I'm considering calling you an idiot, instead of a liar. Would that make you feel better?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 11, 2014, 03:25:54 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:14:48 pm
To get back on topic: I am amazed about Ukraine once again. In bad light this time. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraine-starts-building-defensive-wall-along-border-with-russia/506828.html This did not work in pre-WW2 France, but ... what the serious fuck? :/


Its very old project which was planned right since beginning of the crisis.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 11, 2014, 03:28:37 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
On another note.. The brainwashing begins.. Although judging by some of the commenters on this thread it had began a long time ago..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c5_1410422663 (Ukrainian kids chanting "Glory to Ukraine", "Death to enemies" among other things..)..

Just unbelievable what is happening in Ukraine...

Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:14:48 pm
To get back on topic: I am amazed about Ukraine once again. In bad light this time. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraine-starts-building-defensive-wall-along-border-with-russia/506828.html This did not work in pre-WW2 France, but ... what the serious fuck? :/

Kuujis giving a source with "Moscow" in it. Wtf, Kuujis, don't you react allergic on this?

Quote from: Anuran on September 09, 2014, 02:28:13 am
The point with Israel and Gaza is a good one. In a YouTube video Ken Jebsen (don't know if you know him) has talked about armament supply to the Kurds in Iraq. Christian parties and Christians agreed to it and he questioned their logic. "In the bible, I can only find 'Thou shalt not kill.', but I can't find an exception like 'Thou shalt not kill, unless there will be a conflict in 2000 years in the Middle East' or something like this. How cowardly can one be to not confess to it?" Then he asked himself to make his viewers think about it: "By the way, why don't we send weapons to the occupied people in Gaza so they can defend themselves? We can only send to the occupants but not to the occupied. Strange, isn't it? Aren't they also exposed to terror like the Kurds are?"
"When in the past 500.000 Iraqi children starved to death due to our boycott of Iraq, because we didn't send any food to there, we could have said 'these people need our solidarity for humanitarian reasons' but the conference of bishops never said a word about it." *video ends*

Let me end this post with another quote from Ken Jebsen: "The chaos is the objective."

You might have to turn the subtitles on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 03:29:32 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:14:48 pm
they are all naztee junta and we must protect russians and then we can talk without poles, beams, bible and lemons.
I never said that they are all natzee junta and so on. Your imagination betrays you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:40:37 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 11, 2014, 03:28:37 pm
Kuujis giving a source with "Moscow" in it. Wtf, Kuujis, don't you react allergic on this?
A bit, but one has to read various stuff to get a broader picture, no?  :mrgreen:

Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 03:29:32 pm
I never said that they are all natzee junta and so on. Your imagination betrays you.
Oh... can I ask for your personal oppinion on russian involvement in Ukraine and its actions agains a friendly slav nation? And if you agree/support them and why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 11, 2014, 03:43:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:40:37 pm
Ukraine a friendly slav nation

Might have been true before Maidan but right now, no  :mrgreen:


Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 12:11:55 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8c5_1410422663

Sad but unsurprising, there is a lot of emotional songs about war and enemies in Ukraine since Maidan  :rolleyes:
Lets just hope its an extrem case of a isolated school teacher. You can make kids say anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:49:14 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 11, 2014, 03:43:41 pm
Might have been true before Maidan but right now, no  :mrgreen:
WELL... what a difference a propaganda makes. I rest my case!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 05:33:08 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:40:37 pm
Oh... can I ask for your personal oppinion on russian involvement in Ukraine and its actions agains a friendly slav nation? And if you agree/support them and why?
About Crimea, I don't know, just know that people there wanted to come back to Russia, and now they are happy. I know that there will be no investigation about kills in Odessa and Maidan till new pro-russian government will come to power. I'm against the war, I don't want people to die. If you would listen what eastern people talk about Poroshenko and ukranian army, you will understand that this war was a fault.
Friendly with Russia was only east of Ukraine. When I was in Lvov, they didn't sell me products, because I spoke on russian. That was in 90s. They called me Moscal, but I'm not from Moscow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 05:33:59 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 10, 2014, 07:55:29 pm
What examples are you talking about? Did anyone even talk about examples in this thread? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I never said or implied that. More importantly, what mindset I have is irrelevant as I'm discussing the videos you posted and forming a rebuttal. I am not expressing an opinion.

Showing someone that whatever view they express is incoherent, is not a personal attack. There's a difference between "what you say is dumb here's why" and "you're dumb". I did the former.

I think we are way past the step at which we shared our opinions (or the opinion of whatever other person) now.

"a person's logic" is a nonsensical statement. There's not one logic per person. There's only one logic.

No comment. I think you (as well as me, a few pages back) have done your share of that too.

This thread isn't pointless. I have shown that from premises that we all hold true (such as "the RF banned imports of some western products") regardless of our opinions, we can unequivocally deduce elements that are coherent with one theory but not another. It's not about opinions.

Sharing opinions and comparing them is nice. We can civilly argue about what makes one theory or the other more credible. And more importantly we can do so based on facts, not only conjecture. We actually have a lot of facts to go on.

I'm still waiting Murmi...

Quote from: Butan on September 11, 2014, 03:43:41 pm
Sad but unsurprising, there is a lot of emotional songs about war and enemies in Ukraine since Maidan  :rolleyes:
Lets just hope its an extrem case of a isolated school teacher. You can make kids say anything.

Yeah they might even wish for impure blood flooding their furrows.


Also, it was good knowing you Vovka.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 11, 2014, 06:24:41 pm
German TV Shows chocolate chip cookie Symbols on Helmets of Ukraine Soldiers (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/german-tv-shows-chocolate chip cookie-symbols-helmets-ukraine-soldiers-n198961)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 06:32:11 pm
And of course all the Russian soldiers are angels.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 06:38:00 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 06:32:11 pm
And of course all the Russian soldiers are angels.
I knew it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 06:40:42 pm
To be honest far-right extremism is widespread in armies everywhere, not just Russia or Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 06:52:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 05:33:08 pm
About Crimea, I don't know, just know that people there wanted to come back to Russia, and now they are happy. I know that there will be no investigation about kills in Odessa and Maidan till new pro-russian government will come to power. I'm against the war, I don't want people to die. If you would listen what eastern people talk about Poroshenko and ukranian army, you will understand that this war was a fault.
Friendly with Russia was only east of Ukraine. When I was in Lvov, they didn't sell me products, because I spoke on russian. That was in 90s. They called me Moscal, but I'm not from Moscow.
Sorry, but this is dodging. I know no sane person, who would prefer war over peace, so thats out of question. What I lack is acceptance of russias role in CAUSING this war. And until russian people realize, this and say "enough" - well... what can one do? Show zero respect to said people? Wage war against them? Boycot everything russian? Try to convince somone to wake the fuck up?

One thing I will NOT do is show ANYTHING resembing respect to the people who support their leaders like putler and are willing to support resurrecting the ghosts of CCCP.

And as for being happy - if there was ANYTHING in the news apart from stuff telling them to be happy - I would consider accepting that for a truth. Now - I see a result of MASSIVE putler controlled propaganda giving results it was expected to give. Nothing more, nothing less. 5% maybe watch something else. 1% maybe starts questioning what the fuck russia did. Well... ofc, this does not include Tatars, who are basically fucked, because they sided with Ukraine.

On the other hand - why should they not be happy. The other regions where putler stirred shit up now have war, so NOT having war I guess is good enough cause to be happy.

I already said so and I will repeat: I am appalled to see the standards, to which russians hold their government accountable. Just that. "Stable enough" is a main reason to support putlers actions with 87% fervor... right.

You want me to respect your country, your leader? Tell me why and how. I would rather have a dependable partner to balance out US influence, rather than an agressor of a country, which decides to prosecute my countrymen for failing to obey laws of crumbing CCCP during 1990ties. Now the only realistic option, IF one does not want a fate of Kazachstan or Belorussia, is to go with NATO, EU and US by extension...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 07:11:23 pm
You see only one side of the medal, and seems don't want see another, so there is no sence to discuss it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 07:48:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 07:11:23 pm
You see only one side of the medal, and seems don't want see another, so there is no sence to discuss it.
You know... lets try. So what is the other side of the medal? Whats there? What do I fail to see?

I perfectly realize, that there probably was a significant majority in Crimea, who wanted to join russia. Is it a cause to annex it? I do not think so. Did russia explicitly promised NOT to do this? I believe it DID. Given this logic russia applies - part of Siberia is liable to be taken away from russia, and whole sections of russian-inhabited London is liable to be taken away from UK too, or is it not? Also - there were parts of russia, who did not WANT to be part of russia. Putler waged a bloody war on them, so THATS how "important" oppinion of people is to him. So whats there on that other side of the coin? Whats IMPORTANT enough to distinguish these cases?

What about eastern Ukraine? There - only a minority (if vocal) wanted to become russia, yet putler supported, trained, equipped and then finally BAILED OUT the minority rebels with fucking russian army anyway. What kind of basis is THERE for russia to intervene and stir shit on a scale of civil war for fuck sake?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 11, 2014, 08:01:37 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 06:52:01 pm
Now the only realistic option, IF one does not want a fate of Kazachstan or Belorussia, is to go with NATO, EU and US by extension...

Yeah, just give the EU and 'murica the chance to make the situation even worse. 

There's a reason why we make fun of the west...its because they're morally bankrupt.  Putin's no saint, but he's better than the alternative.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 08:15:37 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 07:48:52 pm
You know... lets try. So what is the other side of the medal? Whats there? What do I fail to see?

I perfectly realize, that there probably was a significant majority in Crimea, who wanted to join russia. Is it a cause to annex it? I do not think so. Did russia explicitly promised NOT to do this? I believe it DID. Given this logic russia applies - part of Siberia is liable to be taken away from russia, and whole sections of russian-inhabited London is liable to be taken away from UK too, or is it not? Also - there were parts of russia, who did not WANT to be part of russia. Putler waged a bloody war on them, so THATS how "important" oppinion of people is to him. So whats there on that other side of the coin? Whats IMPORTANT enough to distinguish these cases?

What about eastern Ukraine? There - only a minority (if vocal) wanted to become russia, yet putler supported, trained, equipped and then finally BAILED OUT the minority rebels with fucking russian army anyway. What kind of basis is THERE for russia to intervene and stir shit on a scale of civil war for fuck sake?
OK, let's try, if I was an ukranian, then of course I would be angry if Crimea went to Russia. It is bad for Ukraine, and maybe good for Russia. As for me after all this conflicts, Crimea would join Russia any way, maybe later but would join. But there wasn't a war, which was on the East. As for me, Kiev should act as written in agreement of 21 february. But right sector sieged the government, Yanukovich flees, because there was real threat to be killed. New authorities should put this guys to the jail, but they made them heroes. And they were like a bosses. Illegal revolution which was supported by new authorities was a fault.
Eastern Ukraine doesn't want to become Russia, where did you get this info, where did you get that there is only minority man? If you think so then you don't know about sittuation there. Yes maybe now they think to join Russia, because of money to build and restore everything what was destroyed. Did you see russian army? me not, but I know that there are about 4000 volunteers from Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 11, 2014, 08:21:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 07:48:52 pm
You know... lets try. So what is the other side of the medal? Whats there? What do I fail to see?

I perfectly realize, that there probably was a significant majority in Crimea, who wanted to join russia. Is it a cause to annex it? I do not think so. Did russia explicitly promised NOT to do this? I believe it DID. Given this logic russia applies - part of Siberia is liable to be taken away from russia, and whole sections of russian-inhabited London is liable to be taken away from UK too, or is it not? Also - there were parts of russia, who did not WANT to be part of russia. Putler waged a bloody war on them, so THATS how "important" oppinion of people is to him. So whats there on that other side of the coin? Whats IMPORTANT enough to distinguish these cases?

What about eastern Ukraine? There - only a minority (if vocal) wanted to become russia, yet putler supported, trained, equipped and then finally BAILED OUT the minority rebels with fucking russian army anyway. What kind of basis is THERE for russia to intervene and stir shit on a scale of civil war for fuck sake?

(click to show/hide)

Obama is actually laughing at you for believing him...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 11, 2014, 08:24:30 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 06:32:11 pm
And of course all the Russian soldiers are angels.

Russia will stay on the other side of the fence, but these guys hope to join EU. That doesn't bother you the slightest bit?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 11, 2014, 08:25:30 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 05:33:59 pm
Yeah they might even wish for impure blood flooding their furrows.

Ukraine already has a national anthem, or do you want them to make a new one which include more comtemporary political commentaries?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 11, 2014, 08:36:45 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 11, 2014, 08:01:37 pm
There's a reason why we make fun of the west...its because they're morally bankrupt.

ROFL. You live in Russia right? Did you see any justice around you? Did you see uncorrupt police or government? And please, don't pull out of your ass some extreme case from the US. Most people in Europe and US live more free, with a state that protects them, than they do in RF.

Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 08:15:37 pm
but I know that there are about 4000 volunteers from Russia.

"Volunteers with tanks on vacation", "Paratroopers accidentally crossing borders", "UKR shot down plane", "Little green men", "These are not our soldiers", "We are not at war, speak to separatists"..

I mean.. How fucking thick one have to be to see through the mountain of lies?

The facts are:  Separatists are a mix of patriotic RF propaganda brainwashed Russians from UKR and RF, formerly headed by RF Intelligence generals. Massively supported by RF special forces, artillery, and later regular RF units.

Why?

Because for russians, "loosing" Ukraine doesn't compute. It's the final nail in the coffin of Russian national feelings of greatness. Hating and blaming the west is another habit, while in fact, the responsibility for your crappy standard of living, massive inequality, fucked up economy lay on your own leaders and shit system.

Something is massively wrong. It took me about 5 seconds to understand that when I came to Russia. The half-built airport wasn't touched since fall of USSR, policewomen was wearing high heels, we were driven around in huge black Lexuses with private drivers, had the top floor of the hotel for our group, but only 4 euros budged per day for our projects (probably because they thought we would steal the money).
It's called massive corruption and a society of lying thiefs.

It is an extremely wasteful way to run a society, and that's the most important reason most people in RF is poor.

Wake up and smell the shit. If you think it's much worse in the west, then please come here and take a look.

This is what the revolutionaries on Maydan finally understood. They don't want your shit system anymore. It's not about Russians as a people for the pro-westerners. And it's not very hard to understand that there are russian hating n a z i s in Ukraine..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 08:46:51 pm
What are you talkin about, I know that in EU life is better, even Putin says this on TV. Just imagine Thomek if would live in the eastern Ukraine and one bomb got to your house and killed your wife, your children, will you say Glory to Ukraine? Because of this actions most of population on the East never will be friendly with Kiev.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 11, 2014, 08:59:42 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 08:46:51 pm
What are you talkin about, I know that in EU life is better, even Putin says this on TV. Just imagine Thomek if would live in the eastern Ukraine and one bomb got to your house and killed your wife, your children, will you say Glory to Ukraine? Because of this actions most of population on the East never will be friendly with Kiev.
Once more ignoring that separatists did this too...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 09:03:00 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2014, 08:59:42 pm
Once more ignoring that separatists did this too...
What they did? you meen bombing themselves?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 11, 2014, 09:12:19 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 11, 2014, 08:36:45 pm
ROFL. You live in Russia right? Did you see any justice around you? Did you see uncorrupt police or government? And please, don't pull out of your ass some extreme case from the US. Most people in Europe and US live more free, with a state that protects them, than they do in RF.

You mean the EU on the brink of breaking up because nobody wants that system anymore?  Please look at your own shit before playing policeman of the world.  People are tired of your brand of interventionism in the name of MUH FREEDUMBS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:53:54 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 11, 2014, 03:14:48 pm
Oh I know, thats why I pulled it out ;)

I also know, that it was not (and supposedly SHOULD NOT be NOW) considered an evil act to do, because women worth was supposedly that much lower. But who gives a shit frankly. Tell me when you will start evaluating putlers BS in Ukraine not via the russian media prism "they are all naztee junta and we must protect russians" and then we can talk without poles, beams, bible and lemons.
I am zorry, I shall suck lemons and cry now!

To get back on topic: I am amazed about Ukraine once again. In bad light this time. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraine-starts-building-defensive-wall-along-border-with-russia/506828.html This did not work in pre-WW2 France, but ... what the serious fuck? :/
Now you just do name calling.

Ok, how about this:
you call volunteers mercenaries, because they get wages.
You repeatedly call Ukraine army naztees, although by all reports - there is AT BEST a minority of those, at worst - they are what one would call far-rightists, present in any society.
You repeat, that there are naztees in power in Ukraine, although there are no proofs of that, besides RT style channels.
You call me dumb (DUH!, an obvious lie).

I'm considering calling you an idiot, instead of a liar. Would that make you feel better?

There are right sector members in government and I said that the neo-Na zi groups had helped bring to power the coup government. The fact that there are neo chocolate chip cookie affiliated groups like right sector in the Ukrainian parliament does suggest that there are na zi's in power in Ukraine.

A foreign national who received wages from a state he/she is not a citizen of to fight for that state is a mercenary. Paint it how you like, that's how it is. Call me an idiot if you want, call me a liar and you're wrong.  Because clearly my statements contain truths and therefore are not outright lies like you've tried to suggest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:54:54 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 11, 2014, 05:33:59 pm
I'm still waiting Murmi...

Yeah they might even wish for impure blood flooding their furrows.


Also, it was good knowing you Vovka.

Tell Molly to deliver on my challenge first, after all it was stated long before yours. Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 12:10:39 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 11, 2014, 08:01:37 pm
Yeah, just give the EU and 'murica the chance to make the situation even worse. 

There's a reason why we make fun of the west...its because they're morally bankrupt.  Putin's no saint, but he's better than the alternative.
Sadly... no. They would not make it wore. Russia, with its dreams of glorious past is making things worse. Not even 1 country joined nato by force, all were volunteers. Everyone is free to leave. Same shit with EU. Now compare this to Ukraine: annexed Crimea, civil war in east, both caused by russia.

Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 08:15:37 pm
OK, let's try, if I was an ukranian, then of course I would be angry if Crimea went to Russia. It is bad for Ukraine, and maybe good for Russia. As for me after all this conflicts, Crimea would join Russia any way, maybe later but would join. But there wasn't a war, which was on the East. As for me, Kiev should act as written in agreement of 21 february. But right sector sieged the government, Yanukovich flees, because there was real threat to be killed. New authorities should put this guys to the jail, but they made them heroes. And they were like a bosses. Illegal revolution which was supported by new authorities was a fault.
Eastern Ukraine doesn't want to become Russia, where did you get this info, where did you get that there is only minority man? If you think so then you don't know about sittuation there. Yes maybe now they think to join Russia, because of money to build and restore everything what was destroyed. Did you see russian army? me not, but I know that there are about 4000 volunteers from Russia.

Ok, lets assume, that illegal revolution is at fault... at which point does this mean, that russia may annex parts of Ukraine? Or start a civil war with all the propaganda bullshit it was spewing? Naztees left, nato and conspiracies right...junta in front... enemies all around.

rUSSIA should act as it promised in Budapest memorandum. Yanukovich should not have ordered shooting his own people. Again - how does it justify or allow russia to fuck up Ukraine? Where is the basis? And dont get me started on legitimacy... Ukraine has a legitimately elected president and legitimately elected parliament, you can word around this however you want, it would be lying to yourself first, then lying to everyone else second.

Oh... I don't know - http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/? or http://www.iri.org/NEWS-EVENTS-PRESS-CENTER/NEWS/IRI-POLL-MAJORITY-RUSSIAN-SPEAKING-CITIZENS-UKRAINE-DON%E2%80%99T-FEEL-THREATE ?

I state, that you do not know the situation either. Your circle of friends/relatives/aquitances is probably simply biased, as is normal, but DO NOT judge a situation based on that.

Regarding not seeing russian army... how about these volunteers, who have been given tanks, APC's, command vehicles and everything else a motorized brigade has?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5SbQAjbsUo

DonNicko - I SINCERELY believe you should accept the fact, that your government lied to you about your army NOT being involved. Vacations, volunteers, got lost... Everything, but the obvious. And then your government does not even allow proper burial for those citizens of yours, who died to protect putlers ambitions...

That the local population is NOT happy about the war is understandable and they indeed suffer from it. What is appaling, is that they DO NOT have any news sources, which could claim anything resembling objectivity. Instead they are being fed russian propaganda, if they are in separatist areas, or a mix or russian/ukrainian propaganda, if they are in the areas controlled by Ukraine.

But I digress - first casualty of war is truth. Some smart guy told this. Now... how NOT to have another war - one has to look at the causes. And these lie with russia ALL the way to the kremlin. So ... how should neighboring countries behave? Update their military doctrine, saying "our potential enemy in the region is russia" is the only logical step. And its noone elses fault, but your own.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 12, 2014, 12:19:33 am
Quote from: Leshma on September 11, 2014, 08:24:30 pm
Russia will stay on the other side of the fence, but these guys hope to join EU. That doesn't bother you the slightest bit?

Quote
To be honest far-right extremism is widespread in armies everywhere, not just Russia or Ukraine.

It does bother me regardless of where it happens. My point is that the existence of small extremist groups on the fringe of a free society is inevitable, precisely due to freedom. It seems to me that Russian state propaganda is trying to argue that this is a generality in Ukraine, based on anecdotal evidence which can be found as, if not even more easily in the Russian army.

Quote from: lombardsoup on September 11, 2014, 08:01:37 pm
Yeah, just give the EU and 'murica the chance to make the situation even worse. 

There's a reason why we make fun of the west...its because they're morally bankrupt.  Putin's no saint, but he's better than the alternative.

Morally bankrupt? What does that even mean? We don't run to the patriarchs at the first sign of a bearded transgender? Or is it about capitalism? About that, you should know that even the US offer better social security than Russia, and I'm not even talking about European countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 12:20:25 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:53:54 pm
There are right sector members in government and I said that the neo-Na zi groups had helped bring to power the coup government. The fact that there are neo chocolate chip cookie affiliated groups like right sector in the Ukrainian parliament does suggest that there are na zi's in power in Ukraine.

A foreign national who received wages from a state he/she is not a citizen of to fight for that state is a mercenary. Paint it how you like, that's how it is. Call me an idiot if you want, call me a liar and you're wrong.  Because clearly my statements contain truths and therefore are not outright lies like you've tried to suggest.
I think your first statement was rebuked more than needed. If you have some new material - please share. Naztees IN POWER IN UKRAINE are your fantasy. There are naztees in every country, but the closest they came to power I believe is Greece, with the far right party WINNING significant amount of parliament.

as to Neo-naztee groups helping to bring power to coup government... only the president was "couped", IF that at all, since he fled and was impeached by parliament. Then new president was elected. So... null and void argument. You call Ukraine naztee regime, because there were what... 3000 far right activists in Maidan? Of which proper "HARD CORE" was most like around 50? maybe 250? you totally out of touch with the scale of people needed to do what you claim they have done.

Thats your definition of mercenary, I applaud you for having it. However - I would say, that a volunteer who comes to fight for ideological reasons and gets paid is hardly the mercenary you want to describe. All those soldiers of russian army, who are getting paid for their "vacations" in ukraine - are they also mercenaries?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 12, 2014, 12:26:24 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:54:54 pm
Tell Molly to deliver on my challenge first, after all it was stated long before yours. Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment.

I think you're just being dense. That is, supposing you are able to be convinced of anything at all by me. I know I don't claim to be an international expert in geopolitics, which seems more important to you than formulating coherent arguments.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2014, 12:27:48 am
Murmillus just can't let the "OMFG NAZEES CONTROL GOVRMENT IT IS HOLOCAUST" go.

Pathetic

Agreed, dense as a fucking wall
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 12, 2014, 05:29:52 am
Describing the morally uncorrupt RF:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 08:46:51 pm
What are you talkin about, I know that in EU life is better, even Putin says this on TV. Just imagine Thomek if would live in the eastern Ukraine and one bomb got to your house and killed your wife, your children, will you say Glory to Ukraine? Because of this actions most of population on the East never will be friendly with Kiev.

If some "separatists" started a war (Made in Russia in reality, I don't think I would fall for RF propaganda, considering how obscenely overt it is.)  I would blame Russia, no one else.

Do you really believe Ukrainian army is controlled by haters of Russians who want to exterminate them?

If you do, I can only say that I'm impressed by the propaganda you are exposed to. The "N a z i s" (right sector) in Ukraine is a marginalized group that got 0.7% in the presidential election. It is true however, that they were the ones that fought the hardest and were most violent during Maidan, therefore they had their "claim to power" and got some ministers. Not to mention a non-existent police forced the new government to keep them happy, or they would turn to the streets again.

RF state controlled propaganda are using this fact to paint the whole government and armed forced of Ukraine black. (literally) Which is of course blatant lies. Russians and Ukrainians are much more alike than many other minorities inside the RF, and the huge majority of ukrainians bear no hate toward russians.

I hate to spend energy focusing on the n a z i s in Ukraine, because on the ground its not a factor at all. Just RF propaganda who wants them to be.

Anyway: Ukraine tried peaceful solution and diplomacy first, in Crimea. That obviously didn't work. RF Stole that part of the country. Now Ukr leaders learned that diplomacy with RF doesn't work. RF wants a bigger bite = War.

Ukraine had to struggle with a completely unreliable army infested with russians and 3rd columners, not able to do crap. (You saw the videos of a column of tanks stopping and turning without a shot being fired at a rebel checkpoint..) In the meantime, because their army was a useless piece of shit right sector offered to help. In a falling apart country, that is the worst, but also the only solution. Thus the "brigades" were born..

Now Ukraine has had some time to clean up their army from RF sympathizers, but I bet it's still leaking intelligence like hell and that RF forces have an easy time predicting what they are doing.. Must be a complete nightmare to be an Ukrainian army commander.

End of story: This is an aggressive war created and fought by Russia, and it is RF sole responsibility for any deaths.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 12, 2014, 07:55:57 am
(click to show/hide)
If there wasn't Odessa tradegy, civil war on the East, I could say that it is a bad action from russian side in Crimea, but now I don't know what to say, thanks that there wasn't any war. If you will see new government just left Crimea. And as I said it would join Russia anyways, but new authorities don't know how to solve problems politically, so if there wasn't referendum then war would be in Crimea too.
I see how you like to eat fakes about Russia and believe them, as I said there is no point to discuss if you want to see only one side of the medal. Everyone says that our government is lying, but since for so long time nobody can give any proofs, only some logical conclusions from their heads.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 12, 2014, 08:34:44 am
dafuq?
Putin:"There are no Russian soldiers in Crimea."

3 weeks later...

Putin:"Yes, there were Russian soldiers in Crimea."

Nicko:"My government never lied to us."

I am kinda speechless.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:54:54 pm
Tell Molly to deliver on my challenge first, after all it was stated long before yours. Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment.
Fuck off using me as excuse for not answering Kafein who nicely showed what kind if useless pile of gene material you are.
Poses as the big now-it-all and when someone actually argues properly against you - which you claim you wanted all along - you hide behind someone else like the coward you are.
I was actually wrong about military bases being "always" foreign territory. It only sometimes is. But what works always is Military Law. I actually thought I posted a link in here somewhere, might be I forgot and didn't but honestly, I can't be arsed anymore.
"Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment." That's the best sentence. The only person in here who is still willing to properly discuss instead of just making fun of you, and you haven't got the energy to sift through his "shit". Jesus, you're pathetic.


Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 09:03:00 pm
What they did? you meen bombing themselves?
Do you really think that every shot fired, every artillery strike ordered by the separatists never ever killed any civilians? Seriously?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 08:46:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 12, 2014, 07:55:57 am
(click to show/hide)
If there wasn't Odessa tradegy, civil war on the East, I could say that it is a bad action from russian side in Crimea, but now I don't know what to say, thanks that there wasn't any war. If you will see new government just left Crimea. And as I said it would join Russia anyways, but new authorities don't know how to solve problems politically, so if there wasn't referendum then war would be in Crimea too.
I see how you like to eat fakes about Russia and believe them, as I said there is no point to discuss if you want to see only one side of the medal. Everyone says that our government is lying, but since for so long time nobody can give any proofs, only some logical conclusions from their heads.
IF a COLUMN of russian troops IN Ukraine is not proof enough, if putlers admitance of little-green-men being russian forces, if cargo 200 is NOT PROOFS - then sorry DonNicko, but nothing will be proof enough for you.
Another thing, that either you are willfully blind to or simply do not realize, is that Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea... ALL of these are effects of actions committed by russian government.

It quacks like a duck, it moves like a duck, it LOOKS like a duck, but you insist that these soldiers are some cyborgs engineered in some secret lab. Occams Razor, did you look it up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I just had to fix this for you Molly:
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2014, 08:34:44 am
<...>
Poses as the big now-it-all and when someone actually argues properly against you - which you claim you wanted all along - you hide behind someone else like the coward dumb liar you are.
<...>
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 12, 2014, 09:29:18 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 08:46:07 am
IF a COLUMN of russian troops IN Ukraine is not proof enough, if putlers admitance of little-green-men being russian forces, if cargo 200 is NOT PROOFS - then sorry DonNicko, but nothing will be proof enough for you.
Another thing, that either you are willfully blind to or simply do not realize, is that Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea... ALL of these are effects of actions committed by russian government.

It quacks like a duck, it moves like a duck, it LOOKS like a duck, but you insist that these soldiers are some cyborgs engineered in some secret lab. Occams Razor, did you look it up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I just had to fix this for you Molly:
Kuujis, if i will show you how nato transports 500 tanks and say that they send it to the russian border, seems according your logic you have to believe it easily. Is it nothing for you that this was captured vehicles? Or maybe you prefer to believe all anti-russian fakes? What a russian coloumn of troops? Kuujis stop spamming fakes, bring something interresting. But I think if USA cann't do this, you won't do this too. You say that Yanukovich ordered to shoot people. Really? Who told it to you? Maybe you don't know that snipers on Maidan shot from the building which was controlled by Parubii. Stop accusing me in what I've never said. What cyborgs do you speak about? Can you be smarter please, because it becomes so annoying to discuss with you.
1) There are volunteers, who are well trained
2) Separatists captured a huge amount of ukranian vehicles, what russian vehicles do you speak about
3) Green men were russian forces, that's all, protecting stradegy points of Russia. Show me russian coloumn of troops, where I can understand that they are russian army.
4) Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea were effects of anti-russian ukranian propoganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 09:59:12 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 12, 2014, 09:29:18 am
Kuujis, if i will show you how nato transports 500 tanks and say that they send it to the russian border, seems according your logic you have to believe it easily. Is it nothing for you that this was captured vehicles? Or maybe you prefer to believe all anti-russian fakes? What a russian coloumn of troops? Kuujis stop spamming fakes, bring something interresting. But I think if USA cann't do this, you won't do this too. You say that Yanukovich ordered to shoot people. Really? Who told it to you? Maybe you don't know that snipers on Maidan shot from the building which was controlled by Parubii. Stop accusing me in what I've never said. What cyborgs do you speak about? Can you be smarter please, because it becomes so annoying to discuss with you.
1) There are volunteers, who are well trained
2) Separatists captured a huge amount of ukranian vehicles, what russian vehicles do you speak about
3) Green men were russian forces, that's all, protecting stradegy points of Russia. Show me russian coloumn of troops, where I can understand that they are russian army.
4) Odessa tragedy, civil war, annexation of Crimea were effects of anti-russian ukranian propoganda.

Volunteers, who managed to capture a fully prepared set of vehicles, none of them bearing any sings of damage, all lined up properly... Are you sure you want to maintain this line of thinking? Signpost in that clip is indicative of their presence in Ukraine, so there is not much doubt there.

1. Russian language has this special phrase "dobrovolno prinudytilno", meaning "forced to be volunteer", or something along those lines. I COULD believe, that the rebels were volunteers, trained and supported by russia, BEFORE the counter-offensive, which took place recently. The guys doing counter offensive? The column of troops in Ukraine speaks for itself. I do not know what volunteer troops get the chance to pick up heavy weaponry and armor on that scale. Ukraine volunteer batalions? True, light armor, no tanks, no artillery, lack of even heavier AT guns, no AA capabilities... this for me would describe volunteers. In any case - russia ALOWING its armed forces to "go on vacations for some voluntary war action" is BS of capital scale and at the same time "only in russia" category joke.
2. Now this I could believe, IF THERE WERE PROOFS. Or do you intend to maintain, that the captured vehicles did not suffer a scratch? IF these things were left in army bases before the whole separatism - where were they earlier? Hidden for 2-4 months and NOW suddenly appearing for a fight? That rings right to you somehow?
3. Green men protecting strategic points were occupants. And as for columns, where you could understand that they are russian - there are 2 neighboring countries ar war. One marks its troops clearly, another does not. Do you need more help?
4. Let me check, if I understood that well enough. Ukrainians started the maidan movement, because they had enough of Yanukovich. Then they took their own media into their hands and started portraying ALL the maidan as naztees, started "crucifying children" and "threatening ethnic cleansing", suddenly decided, that Ukraine people are mostly universally evil, because they had it enough of russia and wanted to go west. I find that impossible to swallow. What Ukraine media DID is a relatively weak attempt to counter balance the shit, which was spilling from over the border in russia, by introducing their own propaganda, but that never worked on the people, who were lied to and coerced to believe, that russia is friend, and that there is some junta, who will eat your babies and do ethnic cleansing and similar shit. I'm sorry to bring this to you, but ONLY a victim of full blown russian media bullshit could think like this. There is a lot of crap in the media, but when you are faced with "only in russia" category - its a different world... full of enemies, naztees, juntas and conspiracies. Because otherwise - russians would see what their government wants them to ignore: that there IS another way to live and LIVE WELL. As one well known musician from "Machine of time" band told - "I have not seen lies and nonsenses on the TV at this scale since the times of Brezhnev" (or it was something along those lines).

And after all this - "Ukrainian anti-russian propaganda caused all this"...  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 12, 2014, 10:20:27 am
Ok, let's stop, no point here. I don't want to read so much of your logic here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 10:21:46 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 12, 2014, 10:20:27 am
Ok, let's stop, no point here. I don't want to read so much of your logic here.
I see :?
Isn't that a common excuse for now wanting to see another POV?

Some more "news creation", for fun and proffit :)
http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2g6kvo/russian_ntv_channel_reusing_actors_in_propaganda/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: v/onMega on September 12, 2014, 11:50:46 am
Russia just adding one more neighbour to its tally.
Everytime some neighbour wants to be too free Russia starts war.

Since the excuse of terrorists or terrorism is not valid in the case of Ukraine, russian soldiers "have never ever entered the country" officially. We all know though, Russian is on the trigger in UKR.
Putin is an extremly intelligent and established politican, leader and dispot. He is playing a chess game, once more.
Fucking with whole Europe while maintaing some sort of proclaimed innocence.

Quite a genious motherfucker. President since 2 decades soon, having everybody in his pocket, laughing and lying.
Prototype politician.

But dont be fooled, like any other politician being in charge for too long....PARANOIA is taking over.
There will be war, be sure about that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 12, 2014, 12:19:21 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 11, 2014, 11:54:54 pm
Tell Molly to deliver on my challenge first, after all it was stated long before yours. Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment.
Hahahahah Murmillus gets proven wrong by facts and his reply is he doesn't have the energy to "sift through Kafein's shit"  :lol:

Proven to be a retard who can just spew bullshit but can't back it up, gg no re
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 12, 2014, 01:01:49 pm
I do not know what it means "xant" but every time I see dat name iam translate it as "cant cunt"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 12, 2014, 01:06:06 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:27:38 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 12, 2014, 08:34:44 am
dafuq?
Putin:"There are no Russian soldiers in Crimea."

3 weeks later...

Putin:"Yes, there were Russian soldiers in Crimea."

Nicko:"My government never lied to us."

I am kinda speechless.
Fuck off using me as excuse for not answering Kafein who nicely showed what kind if useless pile of gene material you are.
Poses as the big now-it-all and when someone actually argues properly against you - which you claim you wanted all along - you hide behind someone else like the coward you are.
I was actually wrong about military bases being "always" foreign territory. It only sometimes is. But what works always is Military Law. I actually thought I posted a link in here somewhere, might be I forgot and didn't but honestly, I can't be arsed anymore.
"Besides I haven't got the energy to sift through your shit at the moment." That's the best sentence. The only person in here who is still willing to properly discuss instead of just making fun of you, and you haven't got the energy to sift through his "shit". Jesus, you're pathetic.

Do you really think that every shot fired, every artillery strike ordered by the separatists never ever killed any civilians? Seriously?

At last, you admitted you were wrong, you shitbag brainless fuckwit. I'll consider going through Kafeine's shit later tonight after my shift at work and after I've been to the gym.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:30:39 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 12, 2014, 12:26:24 am
I think you're just being dense. That is, supposing you are able to be convinced of anything at all by me. I know I don't claim to be an international expert in geopolitics, which seems more important to you than formulating coherent arguments.

Since geopolitics is the driving force behind the crisis and disasters we see on the news whether in the Middle-East or in East Europe, geopolitics is key when discussing these matters. To write off geopolitics as a driving point behind these matters is just proof of your ignorance on the matter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:32:05 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2014, 12:27:48 am
Murmillus just can't let the "OMFG NAZEES CONTROL GOVRMENT IT IS HOLOCAUST" go.

Pathetic

Agreed, dense as a fucking wall

I've stated that there are right sector members involved in the current Ukrainian government. The Ukrainian government used the right sector to form units to attack the East Ukrainians. THATS A FACT FUCKWIT.

I've stated that there are neo-Na zi battalions fighting for the Ukrainian government, battalions which consist of neo na zi's from Ukraine, Russia, and European countries, there are more than one neo Na zi battalions.THATS A FACT FUCKWIT.

Agreed, you're as dense as frozen shit.

Have a read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector#Paramilitary_operations
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:33:52 pm
And so the Western agenda is nearing its conclusion.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/ukraine-european-union-president-poroshenko

PROOF OF WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG YOU DUMB FUCK SHITBAGS. (I enjoy calling you brainless brainwashed dumbfucks that by the way), the EXPANSION OF THE EU, GEOPOLITICS, THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THIS SHIT. EU EXPANSION NOT RUSSIAN EXPANSION, EU AGGRESSION NOT RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

Developments, news reports from various sources as they progress time and time again continue prove my viewpoint. You guys can pick on semantics or focus on character assassination as that's what you're good at, but I'll stick to the topic at hand. Meanwhile in Ukraine. Meanwhile in East Europe. Meanwhile in the world.

Christo, Kuujis, Kafeine, Molly, you're all hot air and rhetoric and no substance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 01:56:43 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:33:52 pm
And so the Western agenda is nearing its conclusion.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/ukraine-european-union-president-poroshenko

PROOF OF WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG YOU DUMB FUCK SHITBAGS. (I enjoy calling you brainless brainwashed dumbfucks that by the way), the EXPANSION OF THE EU, GEOPOLITICS, THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THIS SHIT. EU EXPANSION NOT RUSSIAN EXPANSION, EU AGGRESSION NOT RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

Developments, news reports from various sources as they progress time and time again continue prove my viewpoint. You guys can pick on semantics or focus on character assassination as that's what you're good at, but I'll stick to the topic at hand. Meanwhile in Ukraine. Meanwhile in East Europe. Meanwhile in the world.

Christo, Kuujis, Kafeine, Molly, you're all hot air and rhetoric and no substance.
Coming from you - this feels like a praise. I even shed one tear. I will tatoo it now.

Let me double check that: Ukraine gets fucked by russia, Ukraine needs allies and asks to join EU and NATO. IT's OBVIOUSLY NATO and/or EU fault.

Did I get this right?

Don't you think, that its MUCH more logical to look for neighboring company to party, where fucking each other is mutual and most of the time - enjoyable, instead of always getting it in the ass from a neighboring raging muscle pumping gay?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on September 12, 2014, 02:04:59 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 01:56:43 pm
Coming from you - this feels like a praise. I even shed one tear. I will tatoo it now.

Let me double check that: Ukraine gets fucked by russia, Ukraine needs allies and asks to join EU and NATO. IT's OBVIOUSLY NATO and/or EU fault.

Did I get this right?

Don't you think, that its MUCH more logical to look for neighboring company to party, where fucking each other is mutual and most of the time - enjoyable, instead of always getting it in the ass from a neighboring raging muscle pumping gay?

 EU/NATO was expanding at a, for Russia, alarming rate. It was probably only a matter of time before Ukraine would apply for membership and then it would be too late to do whatever Russia needs done there. Of course their preemptive strike is aggression but EU/NATO is not innocent either. Two forces battling for influence, and both think the other is evil. The truth is that neither is, we look at this "tragedy" with naive, humanistic, idelistic, individualistic views but there is no such concept in geopolitics.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 01:56:43 pm
Coming from you - this feels like a praise. I even shed one tear. I will tatoo it now.

Let me double check that: Ukraine gets fucked by russia, Ukraine needs allies and asks to join EU and NATO. IT's OBVIOUSLY NATO and/or EU fault.

Did I get this right?

Don't you think, that its MUCH more logical to look for neighboring company to party, where fucking each other is mutual and most of the time - enjoyable, instead of always getting it in the ass from a neighboring raging muscle pumping gay?

Nope. Ukraine gets fucked over by the U.S and Europe, and again their own politicians, how?

Political groups and oligarchs in Ukraine whom opposed the Yanukovych government and whom wanted to seize power for themselves were manipulated and influenced by external forces, such as the U.S, Poland and other EU members. Had embarked on orchestrating a coup side by side with protesters galvanised by American NGO's like NED, and through the manipulation of the far right in Ukraine to seize power fro themselves and hop on to the EU gravy train.

Once this coup had been successful and the democratically elected government overthrown, the Western puppet now brought to power upon the hands of the far right and Western backed coup government was rewarded with IMF loans, a promise of EU and potentially in the future NATO membership. Poroshenko and his oligarch friends saw the opportunity and took it, they didn't care what their population thought about this, (especially East Ukrainians), they didn't care how much blood was spilled, only that their agenda was fulfilled. This agenda has destabilized East Europe, isolated Russia from Europe in response to Russia attempting to hold on to its genuine geopolitical and national security interests, has justified the continued existence of NATO and has expanded the EU and NATO bloc right up to Russia's border, now leaving Ukraine's Western border almost entirely surrounded by NATO and NATO friendly states.

The actions in Ukraine threaten world security for all of us, have cost the lives of thousands and displaced hundreds of thousands. You can focus on where it has ended, but I still prefer to focus on where it began. Because you can only effectively resolve an issue by first identifying its root causes and not the cancers that grow from those roots.

I genuinely believe the East Ukrainians should be allowed to separate from Ukraine to end the bloodshed. There are swathes of Ukrainian citizens whom for personal, political, ethnic and even historical reasons would prefer to remain under Russian influence and have for their own reasons always seen NATO and the West as an enemy, to deny these peoples a right to self determination is to condemn them to oppressive authoritarianism conducted by the Western puppet Ukrainian government toward a people whom had never elected it into power. Some of you have your own personal, political, ethnic and historical reasons for opposing the Russian Federation and the pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine, but from that viewpoint try to understand people in the opposite camp. (My self not included as I am merely a neutral observer from a nation not directly involved in the situation.)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 02:26:30 pm
Quote from: Umbra on September 12, 2014, 02:04:59 pm
EU/NATO was expanding at a, for Russia, alarming rate. It was probably only a matter of time before Ukraine would apply for membership and then it would be too late to do whatever Russia needs done there. Of course their preemptive strike is aggression but EU/NATO is not innocent either. Two forces battling for influence, and both think the other is evil. The truth is that neither is, we look at this "tragedy" with naive, humanistic, idelistic, individualistic views but there is no such concept in geopolitics.
Okai... why exactly should Ukraine CARE about what russia thinks it needs done in "there"? And what EU/NATO did, besides being an alternative? Expanding on the last question - what they did DIFFERENTLY from russia?

This "relativism of values" is bullshit, which is the last clinging place for people trying to justify russia. Don't call me naive for having seen both sides of barricades and knowing which side I prefer and why. Do you?

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
Nope. Ukraine gets fucked over by the U.S and Europe, and again their own politicians, how?
Good of you saying that. Now I know, that those soldiers coming from russia, armed by russia, trained by russia and supported by russia are U.S. and Europe fucking Ukraine. As for politicians - you seen any, who are not fucking their country? Clone them, if you have any.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
Political groups and oligarchs in Ukraine whom opposed the Yanukovych government and whom wanted to cease power for themselves were manipulated and influenced by external forces, such as the U.S, Poland and other EU members. Had embarked on orchestrating a coup side by side with protesters galvanised by American NGO's like NED, and through the manipulation of the far right in Ukraine to cease power for themselves and to jump on to the EU gravy train.
I call this a lie, unless you can provide some proofs. Seeing how russian special services could come up with one or two leaked semi-relevant calls IN TOTAL - I seriously doubt such proofs exist.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
Once this coup had been successful and the democratically elected government overthrown
A lie.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
, the Western puppet now brought to power upon the hands of the far right
A lie.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
and Western backed coup government was rewarded with IMF loans, a promise of EU and potentially in the future NATO membership. Poroshenko and his oligarch friends saw the opportunity and took it, they didn't care what their population thought about this, (especially East Ukrainians), they didn't care how much blood was spilled, only that their agenda was fulfilled. This agenda has destabilized East Europe, isolated Russia from Europe in response to Russia attempting to hold on to its genuine geopolitical and national security interests, has justified the continued existence of NATO and has expanded the EU and NATO bloc right up to Russia's border, now leaving Ukraine's Western border almost entirely surrounded by NATO and NATO friendly states.
Please remind me, why Ukraine should care about "genuine geopolitical and national security interests" of russia? And since when does this give russia right to annex parts of Ukraine and stir civil war in two other parts?

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:10:28 pm
The actions in Ukraine threaten world security for all of us, have cost the lives of thousands and displaced hundreds of thousands. You can focus on where it has ended, but I still prefer to focus on where it began. Because you can only effectively resolve an issue by first identifying its root causes and not the cancers that grow from those roots.
Very interesting... So you think a victim of a rape is guilty of being incapacitated by civil unrest... Very interesting logic.

Have you Murmi ever tried to consider ... well.. how shall I put it... "genuine geopolitical and national security interests" of Ukraine? What would those be? Bend over harder, resist less, so the raper has an easier time?

Oh, and a nice article from reuters about russian soldiers not fighting and not dieing in Ukraine:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/12/uk-ukraine-crisis-russians-special-repor-idUKKBN0H70QF20140912
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:29:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 02:26:30 pm
Okai... why exactly should Ukraine CARE about what russia thinks it needs done in "there"? And what EU/NATO did, besides being an alternative? Expanding on the last question - what they did DIFFERENTLY from russia?

This "relativism of values" is bullshit, which is the last clinging place for people trying to justify russia. Don't call me naive for having seen both sides of barricades and knowing which side I prefer and why. Do you?
Good of you saying that. Now I know, that those soldiers coming from russia, armed by russia, trained by russia and supported by russia are U.S. and Europe fucking Ukraine. As for politicians - you seen any, who are not fucking their country? Clone them, if you have any.
I call this a lie, unless you can provide some proofs. Seeing how russian special services could come up with one or two leaked semi-relevant calls IN TOTAL - I seriously doubt such proofs exist.
A lie.
A lie.
Please remind me, why Ukraine should care about "genuine geopolitical and national security interests" of russia? And since when does this give russia right to annex parts of Ukraine and stir civil war in two other parts?
Very interesting... So you think a victim of a rape is guilty of being incapacitated by civil unrest... Very interesting logic.

Have you Murmi ever tried to consider ... well.. how shall I put it... "genuine geopolitical and national security interests" of Ukraine? What would those be? Bend over harder, resist less, so the raper has an easier time?

Kuujis read what I wrote fuckwit. There are many millions of Ukrainians whom prefer Russian direction to Western direction and interference for various reasons.

You state that far right groups being involved in the overthrow of Yanukovych is a lie, but it's the truth fuckwit. Ukraine does have its own geopolitical interests, but these interests are being superseded by Western and Russian geopolitical interests. Ukraine is being torn apart by both but Ukrainian politicians for various reasons are 100% complicit in this situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 12, 2014, 02:33:13 pm
Is ceasefire still holding as we speak?

How far are we in the peace plan?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 02:45:58 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 02:29:56 pm
Kuujis read what I wrote fuckwit. There are many millions of Ukrainians whom prefer Russian direction to Western direction and interference for various reasons.

You state that far right groups being involved in the overthrow of Yanukovych is a lie, but it's the truth fuckwit. Ukraine does have its own geopolitical interests, but these interests are being superseded by Western and Russian geopolitical interests. Ukraine is being torn apart by both but Ukrainian politicians for various reasons are 100% complicit in this situation.
I read. Your statements, which are quite absolute and inflamatory in nature, are a lie, if strictly speaking. You care to rephrase them, ala "there were far-right elements in the Maidan protests, who forced Yanukovich to flee"? I would not call this a lie.

Many millions... care to cite your sources? But in any case - we live in a democracy, people will vote (if allowed by russia) and will decide as a nation what they want. I do not have a problem with that. putler and russia behind him does have a problem with this though.

And then - this pearl:Ukraine does have its own geopolitical interests  I will single it out, call you a liar, a dumb-idiot, an russian apologist, brainwashed fuck and generally a person, unable to value freedom, which does not mean anything to you anymore, since you take it for granted. And I will leave it at that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 12, 2014, 03:00:09 pm
Quote from: Umbra on September 12, 2014, 02:04:59 pm
EU/NATO was expanding at a, for Russia, alarming rate. It was probably only a matter of time before Ukraine would apply for membership and then it would be too late to do whatever Russia needs done there. Of course their preemptive strike is aggression but EU/NATO is not innocent either. Two forces battling for influence, and both think the other is evil. The truth is that neither is, we look at this "tragedy" with naive, humanistic, idelistic, individualistic views but there is no such concept in geopolitics.

Apart from sanctions, EU did nothing. Don't blame EU for Maidan. Haven't seen single EU official in Ukraine prior to Maidan events but I have seen John McCain. Whole EU vs Russia struggle and in general conflicts in Europe in past 100 years are nothing but American plot to weaken their competitors.

Also NATO isn't led by Europe. It is private American army where others are kinda forced into after WWII and rise of Soviet Union. Even man in charge (although puppet with no influence) isn't from EU.

When India got new president, Obama's priority was to meet him and try to pull him to his side. That is because USA now sees China as a serious threat (cyber warfare) and needs to replace them.

There are no innocents in this battle, but I cheer for European Union at expense of RF and especially USA. For me USA will never be true European ally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 12, 2014, 03:19:58 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 12, 2014, 03:00:09 pm
Haven't seen single EU official in Ukraine prior to Maidan events but I have seen John McCain.

Maybe prior, but during there was tons of them, it was "the thing" to be seen at Maidan and to do a little speech about how "we should help the insurgents".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 12, 2014, 04:21:10 pm
Maybe at some point Murmi actually starts to answer questions instead of ranting bullshit.
I'd be surprised.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 12, 2014, 04:25:29 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:27:38 pm
At last, you admitted you were wrong, you shitbag brainless fuckwit. I'll consider going through Kafeine's shit later tonight after my shift at work and after I've been to the gym.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:30:39 pm
Since geopolitics is the driving force behind the crisis and disasters we see on the news whether in the Middle-East or in East Europe, geopolitics is key when discussing these matters. To write off geopolitics as a driving point behind these matters is just proof of your ignorance on the matter.

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:32:05 pm
I've stated that there are right sector members involved in the current Ukrainian government. The Ukrainian government used the right sector to form units to attack the East Ukrainians. THATS A FACT FUCKWIT.

I've stated that there are neo-Na zi battalions fighting for the Ukrainian government, battalions which consist of neo na zi's from Ukraine, Russia, and European countries, there are more than one neo Na zi battalions.THATS A FACT FUCKWIT.

Agreed, you're as dense as frozen shit.

Have a read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector#Paramilitary_operations

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:33:52 pm
And so the Western agenda is nearing its conclusion.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/ukraine-european-union-president-poroshenko

PROOF OF WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG YOU DUMB FUCK SHITBAGS. (I enjoy calling you brainless brainwashed dumbfucks that by the way), the EXPANSION OF THE EU, GEOPOLITICS, THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THIS SHIT. EU EXPANSION NOT RUSSIAN EXPANSION, EU AGGRESSION NOT RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

Developments, news reports from various sources as they progress time and time again continue prove my viewpoint. You guys can pick on semantics or focus on character assassination as that's what you're good at, but I'll stick to the topic at hand. Meanwhile in Ukraine. Meanwhile in East Europe. Meanwhile in the world.

Christo, Kuujis, Kafeine, Molly, you're all hot air and rhetoric and no substance.

Hey, tip: Before you start calling people fuckwits, Learn to use the modify post button instead of spamming four times in a row like a moron.

You shitbag brainless fuckwit  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 12, 2014, 04:34:01 pm

Daniele Ganser about false flag operations, US/NATO world dominance, media propaganda and oil wars

Especially recommending Kuujis to watch this...

Edit: And Molly
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 12, 2014, 04:37:08 pm
All these people that are oh-so-aware of what is going on and are totally not brainwashed sheep... Do they even remember or know the history of Russian foreign relations since the collapse of SU? :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 12, 2014, 04:50:08 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 12, 2014, 04:37:08 pm
All these people that are oh-so-aware of what is going on and are totally not brainwashed sheep... Do they even remember or know the history of Russian foreign relations since the collapse of SU? :lol:

(click to show/hide)


As a frenchman I can tell you that the same kind of "historical reasoning" would re-occur if there was a major diplomatic disaster between us and the english tomorrow... because "it runs deep". Even though today our countries relationship is amiable. Same with Germany, who went at war against us one time too many.
Building and backing nation-wide love/hate with bookmarks only gets you so far, it can change in an instant deemed our government chooses to change their "fusil d'epaule" and someone get a phonecall.

History is used to explain everything and its contrary since forever. Right now the historical diplomatic tool to explain why we should all pile up on Russia is the not so long ago cold war. Tomorrow it will be something else.

Its all bla-bla to me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 12, 2014, 04:55:51 pm
You completely missed the point. I'm not talking of ancient history, i'm talking of the events of the past 20 years or so, all of which are quite relevant right now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 12, 2014, 06:43:26 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on September 12, 2014, 12:23:32 pm
'proven' the same way you 'proved' that Global Warming was a lie based on that one daily mail article you read?

The World's Greatest Detective returns
Did Kafein use daily mail as his evidence? No? Yep, you're retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 12, 2014, 08:06:48 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 12, 2014, 04:55:51 pm
You completely missed the point. I'm not talking of ancient history, i'm talking of the events of the past 20 years or so, all of which are quite relevant right now.

19/20th century is ancient history?

At which point in time do you believe your arguments will become void?  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 10:11:11 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 12, 2014, 04:50:08 pm
History is used to explain everything and its contrary since forever. Right now the historical diplomatic tool to explain why we should all pile up on Russia is the not so long ago cold war. Tomorrow it will be something else.
No, its not the cold war. Rather - its the lesson learned from appeasing the naztee Germany before WW2.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 10:20:04 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 12, 2014, 04:34:01 pm

Daniele Ganser about false flag operations, US/NATO world dominance, media propaganda and oil wars

Especially recommending Kuujis to watch this...

Edit: And Molly

I gotta appreciate the TRAP! The "journo", Tommy Hansen... the only hits in interwebs are for some gay pron actor :D IDK, he probably is NOT the one, but still - had to have a laugh.

As to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniele_Ganser - mm... yeah... field of research and 9/11 conspiracy theories... I got to listen to this guy. While I play planetside. As a background noise. Maybe.  :rolleyes:

You know, one thing in all these government conspiracies does not cease to amaze me. EVERYONE sees how inefficient and dumb governments are, when dealing with complicated issues. They fail, they blunder, they leak... however when it comes to "world dominance conspiracy" - an almost toothles organization NATO suddenly is THE thing which is governing the world  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 12, 2014, 10:26:08 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 10:20:04 pm
I gotta appreciate the TRAP! The "journo", Tommy Hansen... the only hits in interwebs are for some gay pron actor :D IDK, he probably is NOT the one, but still - had to have a laugh.

As to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniele_Ganser - mm... yeah... field of research and 9/11 conspiracy theories... I got to listen to this guy. While I play planetside. As a background noise. Maybe.  :rolleyes:

You know, one thing in all these government conspiracies does not cease to amaze me. EVERYONE sees how inefficient and dumb governments are, when dealing with complicated issues. They fail, they blunder, they leak... however when it comes to "world dominance conspiracy" - an almost toothles organization NATO suddenly is THE thing which is governing the world  :rolleyes:

At some point even you will wake up. Until then it doesn't make much sense to discuss with you. Watching this video and paying attention to what is said would be very helpful. Face the reality and you will feel much better and freer...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on September 12, 2014, 11:11:31 pm
No conspiracy, no.

There is a strange lack of information in the media, though, concerning the possible (if not probable) United States involvement in Ukraine prior to the public outrage of Russian involvement.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/a_new_cold_war_ukraine_violence (http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/a_new_cold_war_ukraine_violence)

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/fuck-the-eu-frustrated-nuland-says-to-pyatt-in-alleged-leaked-phone-call-336373.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/fuck-the-eu-frustrated-nuland-says-to-pyatt-in-alleged-leaked-phone-call-336373.html)

If this is true, it changes how the conflict is viewed.

I mean, what would the United States do if Russia influenced elements in Mexico and caused a democratically elected government to be replaced with one with closer ties to Russia?

Edit: Here's the transcript. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 12, 2014, 11:14:21 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 10:11:11 pm
No, its not the cold war. Rather - its the lesson learned from appeasing the naztee Germany before WW2.

Thats the second argument, yes, and far from being the most arguable. Godwin points are so 2000's.



Quote from: Kalam on September 12, 2014, 11:11:31 pm
I mean, what would the United States do if Russia influenced elements in Mexico and caused a democratically elected government to be replaced with one with closer ties to Russia?

Soft coups or how US/EU are much smarter and Russia too blunt!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 11:44:58 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 12, 2014, 10:26:08 pm
At some point even you will wake up. Until then it doesn't make much sense to discuss with you. Watching this video and paying attention to what is said would be very helpful. Face the reality and you will feel much better and freer...
I should star believing a guy, who talks about conspiracies with a straight face, and THEN I will be worth discussing with? Sorry, but no dice.

Look, I understand and accept perfectly fine, that there are a BUNCH of interests in Ukraine, including those of Ukraine itself. What you FAIL to understand, that SOME means of achieving those goals go beyond what I tolerate and would call "acceptable". russia annexing Crimea and causing civil war in the eastern Ukraine are two examples of these actions. putler sending in his troops is another.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on September 13, 2014, 12:33:50 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 02:26:30 pm
Okai... why exactly should Ukraine CARE about what russia thinks it needs done in "there"?

They werent asked.

Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 02:26:30 pm

And what EU/NATO did, besides being an alternative?

Exactly

Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 02:26:30 pm
This "relativism of values" is bullshit, which is the last clinging place for people trying to justify russia. Don't call me naive for having seen both sides of barricades and knowing which side I prefer and why. Do you?

Geopolitics dont care which side you prefer or about your own sense of which side is more moral/right. I dont even support Russia, they can go suck a bag of dicks for all i care.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 01:05:04 am
Quote from: Christo on September 12, 2014, 04:25:29 pm
Hey, tip: Before you start calling people fuckwits, Learn to use the modify post button instead of spamming four times in a row like a moron.

You shitbag brainless fuckwit  :lol:

I'll make a point of not doing so.  :lol:

Teach mi plismissir..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 01:08:58 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 02:45:58 pm
I read. Your statements, which are quite absolute and inflamatory in nature, are a lie, if strictly speaking. You care to rephrase them, ala "there were far-right elements in the Maidan protests, who forced Yanukovich to flee"? I would not call this a lie.

Many millions... care to cite your sources? But in any case - we live in a democracy, people will vote (if allowed by russia) and will decide as a nation what they want. I do not have a problem with that. putler and russia behind him does have a problem with this though.

And then - this pearl:Ukraine does have its own geopolitical interests  I will single it out, call you a liar, a dumb-idiot, an russian apologist, brainwashed fuck and generally a person, unable to value freedom, which does not mean anything to you anymore, since you take it for granted. And I will leave it at that.

Trading one external power for another, the other which has been involved in multiple wars of aggression in the Middle-East, North Africa and West Asia and even south East Europe only these past 18 years, is not a bid for freedom. It's about the illegitimate coup government comprised of extremists, oligarchs and the odd decent person who actually cares about Ukraine galvanised by external interference jumping out of bed with one power and into bed with another.

You're brainwashed and stupid for not even realising this, you're so anti-Russian you can't see the truth of events as they transpire in-front of our very eyes, on the media, the internet, reports on events and the situations which lead to the events that come to be.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 13, 2014, 03:45:10 am
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35542/#.VBOhXqMdPxT (http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35542/#.VBOhXqMdPxT)

To our fellow Latvs, what do you know about this?

Also guess who doubleposted again. Do you have problems using a forum or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 13, 2014, 06:09:29 am
Russians coming home in coffins; Kremlin stifles dissent.

http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-moscow-stifles-dissent-soldiers-return-coffins-090051931.html (http://news.yahoo.com/special-report-moscow-stifles-dissent-soldiers-return-coffins-090051931.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 13, 2014, 06:21:37 am
Guess they were sunbathing too much on vacation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 13, 2014, 07:43:26 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 12, 2014, 11:44:58 pm
I should star believing a guy, who talks about conspiracies with a straight face, and THEN I will be worth discussing with? Sorry, but no dice.

Look, I understand and accept perfectly fine, that there are a BUNCH of interests in Ukraine, including those of Ukraine itself. What you FAIL to understand, that SOME means of achieving those goals go beyond what I tolerate and would call "acceptable". russia annexing Crimea and causing civil war in the eastern Ukraine are two examples of these actions. putler sending in his troops is another.

I know that Putin is not innocent at all. But the US and the NATO have been more aggressive in the past than Russia and even now they continue sanctioning Russia without any reason.
If you don't want to watch the video then it's okay. I know you are falling for the mass media propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 13, 2014, 12:28:21 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 13, 2014, 03:45:10 am
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35542/#.VBOhXqMdPxT (http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35542/#.VBOhXqMdPxT)

To our fellow Latvs, what do you know about this?

Where do you think mercenaries/ideological fighters lives? Not necessarily where they are employed, and probably they take some "vacations" from time to time :P Whats funniest is even those not at war countries files charges of "terrorism" on those caught with weapons...  :rolleyes:  I guess if they found out those people were fighting AGAINST pro-Russian in Ukraine they would release them with a pat on the back!

INB4 latvs jump their shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 13, 2014, 01:11:56 pm
Earlier this month, there were like two people going around in a car with that separatist flag (there's a good number of videos taken of them driving around, in one at least, they notice that they are being filmed, take down the flag quickly and start driving aggressively against the one filming), trying to recruit fighters. They got sanctioned, but i suppose they found at least someone willing to go. Gun laws are pretty strict here, illegal arms and attempts to get people to go fight abroad are both serious offenses.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 13, 2014, 02:21:20 pm
Novorossia is the real revolutionary movment against oligarchy in Ukraine, with a real social program.

What is exactly Ukraine's political programm ? Send natural resources to the West, borrow money to IMF, austerity plan, privatization, patriotic war against anything russian, NATO bases and missiles lauchers etc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 02:33:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 13, 2014, 02:21:20 pm
Novorossia is the real revolutionary movment against oligarchy in Ukraine, with a real social program.

What is exactly Ukraine's political programm ? Send natural resources to the West, borrow money to IMF, austerity plan, privatization, patriotic war against anything russian, NATO bases and missiles lauchers etc.

And what does NATO get from its new puppet? The perfect ground from which to situate "anti-ballistic missile" batteries, in a NATO attempt to nullify Russia's nuclear deterrent, a deterrent which guarantees Russia's sovereignty.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 13, 2014, 02:34:23 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on September 13, 2014, 01:11:56 pm
They got sanctioned, but i suppose they found at least someone willing to go. Gun laws are pretty strict here, illegal arms and attempts to get people to go fight abroad are both serious offenses.

Indeed, and quite justified, but terrorist charges, seriously?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on September 13, 2014, 02:53:07 pm
Sorry wrong topic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 03:22:08 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 02:33:59 pm
And what does NATO get from its new puppet? The perfect ground from which to situate "anti-ballistic missile" batteries, in a NATO attempt to nullify Russia's nuclear deterrent, a deterrent which guarantees Russia's sovereignty.

ABM batteries would be nowhere near nullifying RF nuclear potential. Not even scratch the potential. They have 100's of ICBM's, most of them would go over the polar ice cap, their ICBM launchers are placed all over their territory, much of it in the far east.  In addition to that you have a very solid SLBM/Nuclear subs that could single handedly destroy half of the US if not whole.   :rolleyes:

It's just physics. Catching up to and disabling such gigantic and quick rockets if they are just a little far away is nigh-on impossible, unless you try to intercept them in their ballistic phase. A third option is to try and take them out with nuclear AA missiles like the ABM system around Moscow.

Placing them however was however an idiotic idea born in the paranoid crazy minds of the Bush administration. And I sincerely believe they believed it would be aimed at Iran.  :rolleyes: RF has used it for max political gain.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 04:10:29 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 03:22:08 pm
ABM batteries would be nowhere near nullifying RF nuclear potential. Not even scratch the potential. They have 100's of ICBM's, most of them would go over the polar ice cap, their ICBM launchers are placed all over their territory, much of it in the far east.  In addition to that you have a very solid SLBM/Nuclear subs that could single handedly destroy half of the US if not whole.   :rolleyes:

It's just physics. Catching up to and disabling such gigantic and quick rockets if they are just a little far away is nigh-on impossible, unless you try to intercept them in their ballistic phase. A third option is to try and take them out with nuclear AA missiles like the ABM system around Moscow.

Placing them however was however an idiotic idea born in the paranoid crazy minds of the Bush administration. And I sincerely believe they believed it would be aimed at Iran.  :rolleyes: RF has used it for max political gain.

Iran has no nuclear warheads nor the capability to deliver a payload to Europe. Paranoid crazy minds of the U.S Neocon hawks complicit with the Israeli political establishment has led to harsh sanctions on Iran by Zionist and Zionist supporting states first for merely overthrowing a Western backed/installed government and now for developing a nuclear energy and medical program, not a nuclear weapons program. Even if the shield was actually aimed at Iran, there is little to no reason to shield ones self from a non-existent threat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 13, 2014, 04:39:54 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 13, 2014, 04:45:59 pm
Anti-missile-system in eastern Europe
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 13, 2014, 05:27:09 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 03:22:08 pm


It's just physics. Catching up to and disabling such gigantic and quick rockets if they are just a little far away is nigh-on impossible, unless you try to intercept them in their ballistic phase. A third option is to try and take them out with nuclear AA missiles like the ABM system around Moscow.

Placing them however was however an idiotic idea born in the paranoid crazy minds of the Bush administration. And I sincerely believe they believed it would be aimed at Iran.  :rolleyes: RF has used it for max political gain.

Well actually the ICBMs are vulnerable in the launch phase while they are still in a vertical trajectory and slower than when they are at high altitude and higher velocity.  The first ABMs in Europe were placed when the Reagan administration was in office.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 13, 2014, 06:37:02 pm
Quote from: Kalam on September 12, 2014, 11:11:31 pm
No conspiracy, no.

There is a strange lack of information in the media, though, concerning the possible (if not probable) United States involvement in Ukraine prior to the public outrage of Russian involvement.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/a_new_cold_war_ukraine_violence (http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/a_new_cold_war_ukraine_violence)

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/fuck-the-eu-frustrated-nuland-says-to-pyatt-in-alleged-leaked-phone-call-336373.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/fuck-the-eu-frustrated-nuland-says-to-pyatt-in-alleged-leaked-phone-call-336373.html)

If this is true, it changes how the conflict is viewed.

The two main "pieces of evidence" (the nuland phone call and the presentation) are only evidence if one insists on interpreting all the material as such. They do not refute the hypothesis that the West didn't do anything wrong here. An example of evidence which actually proves something is the study of the MH17 crash site showing that the plane got hit by a G2A missile, hence refuting the hypothesis that the plane got hit by weapons mounted on a jet (even disregarding the problem of making the jet and the MH17 plane meet close enough despite the jet's inability to keep up the speed and difficulty in reaching the right altitude).

Quote from: Kalam on September 12, 2014, 11:11:31 pm
I mean, what would the United States do if Russia influenced elements in Mexico and caused a democratically elected government to be replaced with one with closer ties to Russia?

Actually Russia is trying to do that, they are just much less successful. Mexicans, just like Ukrainians, prefer to side with prosperous democracies. Unlike Ukraine however, Mexico isn't subject to rampant election fraud and infiltration from Russian agents. NGOs backed by the Russian government are either old and independent (Greenpeace) or completely lack legitimacy. Even Iran is backing NGOs claiming to be defending human rights. The only way Russia can further its influence today is using military power, and to some degree Russian propaganda that has an audience outside of the country (Crimea and Eastern Ukraine). For that reason Russia is not even close to a point at which it could influence Mexico into anything, whereas the appeal of democracy radiates everywhere peacefully (sounds preachy right?), and NATO powers are associated with democracy much more than Russia ever was.

More importantly, this question tries to view the conflict as a Cold War chessboard even though there's still very little evidence that both players are there, or that there is even a chessboard. A better question would be "what would Russia do if Ukraine influenced elements in Siberia into independence?".


By the way I'm adding Murmillus to my ignore list. After I spent time carefully refuting his points the best he could come up with was this:

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 12, 2014, 01:30:39 pm
Since geopolitics is the driving force behind the crisis and disasters we see on the news whether in the Middle-East or in East Europe, geopolitics is key when discussing these matters. To write off geopolitics as a driving point behind these matters is just proof of your ignorance on the matter.

Which is a completely circular argument (if even that). Honestly I'm not surprised, if a little bit disappointed. Hopefully I'll be able to have an enriching exchange with Kalam or Angantyr. I also invite everyone else to ignore Murmillus from now on, as that would at least fulfill his fantasy of being persecuted by brainless sheeple.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 13, 2014, 07:08:25 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 13, 2014, 06:37:02 pm
Actually Russia is trying to do that, they are just much less successful. Mexicans, just like Ukrainians, prefer to side with prosperous democracies.

Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
And "prosperous democracies", please?  democracies are massively corrupted and manipulated, prosperity-wise US/EU and most countries which applied to their influence circlejerk are on a downward slope.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 13, 2014, 07:18:40 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 13, 2014, 06:37:02 pm
An example of evidence which actually proves something is the study of the MH17 crash site showing that the plane got hit by a G2A missile, hence refuting the hypothesis that the plane got hit by weapons mounted on a jet (even disregarding the problem of making the jet and the MH17 plane meet close enough despite the jet's inability to keep up the speed and difficulty in reaching the right altitude).

This is/was the cockpit:
(click to show/hide)


I will translate an article about the downing of MH17 later.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 13, 2014, 07:21:20 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 13, 2014, 07:08:25 pm
Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
And "prosperous democracies", please?  democracies are massively corrupted and manipulated, prosperity-wise US/EU and most countries which applied to their influence circlejerk are on a downward slope.
I bet your mum, your dad, yourself and the rest of your family lived pretty damn well of and in those bad, bad democracies... Evil they are, actually providing for their population. EVIIIL!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 07:37:24 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 13, 2014, 07:21:20 pm
I bet your mum, your dad, yourself and the rest of your family lived pretty damn well of and in those bad, bad democracies... Evil they are, actually providing for their population. EVIIIL!

You mean the democracies with massive unemployment (murica, for example, has a record 90 million people not working or looking for work) and record welfare signups/EBT use

PROSPERITY
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 13, 2014, 07:46:14 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 07:37:24 pm
You mean the democracies with massive unemployment (murica, for example, has a record 90 million people not working or looking for work) and record welfare signups/EBT use

PROSPERITY
Uh... what? What does unemployment and welfare signups have to do with living pretty damn well? In lots of western countries you get paid a lot better for not working than you do when working in shitty former SU countries... with the added bonus of, y'know, not having to work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 07:49:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 13, 2014, 07:46:14 pm
Uh... what? What does unemployment and welfare signups have to do with living pretty damn well? In lots of western countries you get paid a lot better for not working than you do when working in shitty former SU countries... with the added bonus of, y'know, not having to work.

You mean living off me, the working man.  And I apologize, the current figure is over 100 million lazy fat fucks in Burgerstan not in the workforce

Such prosperous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 13, 2014, 07:51:01 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 07:49:25 pm
You mean living off me, the working man.  And I apologize, the current figure is over 100 million lazy fat fucks in Burgerstan not in the workforce

Such prosperous.
Yes, living off you, the working man - because the countries are so PROSPEROUS that they can afford to pay even those not working a lot of money. You do realize that "dey r living off me" is not an argument at all. Whether they are living off you or the neighbor's dog, the fact remains that they can still live comfortable lives with wages above those of the average working man in FSU countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 07:56:03 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 13, 2014, 07:51:01 pm
Yes, living off you, the working man - because the countries are so PROSPEROUS that they can afford to pay even those not working a lot of money. You do realize that "dey r living off me" is not an argument at all.

Please come and visit Burgerstan so you can witness the thousands of 600lb fatties swiping EBT, then rolling out of the grocery stores, cart wheels breaking, filled with junk food.

Meanwhile we can't even fix our basic infrastructure (roads, electrical grid, internet, etc) because we're too busy giving all of the money to the fat white trash.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 13, 2014, 07:58:51 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 07:56:03 pm
Please come and visit Burgerstan so you can witness the thousands of 600lb fatties swiping EBT, then rolling out of the grocery stores, cart wheels breaking, filled with junk food.

Meanwhile we can't even fix our basic infrastructure (roads, electrical grid, internet, etc) because we're too busy giving all of the money to the fat white trash.
So, these fatties are capable of affording so much food they can get super fat and continue to eat like that.. despite not working? That is not an argument against prosperity. On the contrary. Nobody forces them to get fat, that's their own choice. A choice they can make because they live in a prosperous country.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:04:33 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 13, 2014, 07:58:51 pm
So, these fatties are capable of affording so much food they can get super fat and continue to eat like that.. despite not working? That is not an argument against prosperity. On the contrary. Nobody forces them to get fat, that's their own choice. A choice they can make because they live in a prosperous country.

Living off of others is prosperity?  LOL.  Western nations are mere shadows of their former selves.  Nobody works and yet they all talk about is FREEDUMB FREEDUMB FREEDUMB like something straight out of an Orwell novel.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:07:43 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:04:33 pm
Living off of others is prosperity?  LOL.  Western nations are mere shadows of their former selves.  Nobody works and yet they all talk about is FREEDUMB FREEDUMB FREEDUMB in something straight out of an Orwell novel.
Yes, it is. Why would it not be? As I've said two times before, they can easily get more money per month than workers in FSU countries do on average. You seem very confused; it's clear you have an axe to grind with these "freeloaders", yet you're just shooting yourself in the foot by trying to grind it in this particular conversation.

Not working has nothing to do with freedom, nothing at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:09:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:07:43 pm
Yes, it is. Why would it not be? As I've said two times before, they can easily get more money per month than workers in FSU countries do on average. You seem very confused; it's clear you have an axe to grind with these "freeloaders", yet you're just shooting yourself in the foot by trying to grind it in this particular conversation.

Not working has nothing to do with freedom, nothing at all.

Yes it does, it means the west is filled with lazy fat hypocrites.

They've already "freed the shit" out of the middle east and destabilized the entire region over a decade or so, I guess Ukraine is next?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:11:39 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:09:16 pm
Yes it does, it means the west is filled with lazy fat hypocrites.

They've already "freed the shit" out of the middle east and destabilized the entire region over a decade or so, I guess Ukraine is next?
You've made zero logical arguments so far, and seems you want to continue with the trend. West being filled with lazy fat hypocrites has nothing to do with what Molly said: living well. And he actually said that the west provides for their population. You apparently seem to think you're disagreeing, even though you're just strengthening his point with every post you make.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:12:29 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:11:39 pm
You've made zero logical arguments so far, and seems you want to continue with the trend. West being filled with lazy fat hypocrites has nothing to do with what Molly said: living well. And he actually said that the west provides for their population. You apparently seem to think you're disagreeing, even though you're just strengthening his point with every post you make.

Can you call it prosperity when you have to invade other nations to gain it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:14:12 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:12:29 pm
Can you call it prosperity when you have to invade other nations to gain it?
Can you apple a strawberry if you have to squeeze a potato?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:15:06 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:14:12 pm
Can you apple a strawberry if you have to squeeze a potato?

Go invade another oil rich nation and call it "liberation" if you please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:15:47 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:15:06 pm
Go invade another oil rich nation and call it "liberation" if you please.
I wonder if you can change your argument a few more times when you notice you've been spewing nonsense.

Molly: People live very comfortably in so-called "bad democracies." They provide for their citizens.
lombardsoup: urhhh no they dont proof: the west gives tons of free money to its citizens
Xant: How is that an argument against providing for citizens and living comfortably?
lombardsoup: urghh uh can u still call it providing for its citizens if u have to invade to do it?? hodor

You can't even understand that the means have nothing to do with the end. If someone has a lot of apples, it is indeed accurate to say that he has a lot of apples, and thus can be said to be very well off when it comes to apples... even if he murdered someone to get those apples. Or if he worked hard to get them. It's a different argument altogether if you start debating the morality of his acquisition of said apples. And that's just one of your logical fallacies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:29:50 pm
Xant: A REAL MURICAN HERO

USA COMING TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKING DAY (no matter who gets killed along the way)

You can parachute into Ukraine with John McCain!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 08:34:02 pm
OK.. I think its clear now after 100s of pages:

The majority who supports RF are either:

A. Nationalistic Russians. (Nationalistic anything=Pretty narrow minded and retarded)
B. Conspiracy freaks.

What they share is skepticism about the world hegemony of the west, which is a fair point!

Yes the US is bad,
yes Europe is bad,
I wholeheartedly agree.

There are however many things much worse than US and EU. One of them are the Russian Federation represented by Putin and his oligarchs.

If you doubt me:
*People are leaving the country en masse:  http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/russian-emigration-spikes-in-2013-2014/ (http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/russian-emigration-spikes-in-2013-2014/)
*Massive corruption on all levels of society and money is above the Law:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia)
*Widespread racism against everyone not-Russian. (Asians, People from Caucasus, westerners, blacks, jews, gays) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPUoHw25H2M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPUoHw25H2M)
*Russia has the world's highest rate of income inequality, barring a few Caribbean islands:  http://themoscownews.com/oped/20131011/191978277/Russias-income-inequality-the-root-of-most-evil.html (http://themoscownews.com/oped/20131011/191978277/Russias-income-inequality-the-root-of-most-evil.html)
*People that protest this, and alternative media are shut down, killed or silenced.

.....

Maidan wanted to be free from RF influence, and turn the other way. Those who already chose EU have way better living than them already (Rest of Eastern europe), and it kind of proves the point:

West > Russia

Even if we are devils in other parts of the world, in this case, RF is the greater devil.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:36:24 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 08:34:02 pm
OK.. I think its clear now after 100s of pages:

The majority who supports RF are either:

A. Nationalistic Russians. (Nationalistic anything=Pretty narrow minded and retarded)
B. Conspiracy freaks.

What they share is skepticism about the world hegemony of the west, which is a fair point!

Yes the US is bad,
yes Europe is bad,
I wholeheartedly agree.

There are however many things much worse than US and EU. One of them are the Russian Federation represented by Putin and his oligarchs.

If you doubt me:
*People are leaving the country en masse:  http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/russian-emigration-spikes-in-2013-2014/ (http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/russian-emigration-spikes-in-2013-2014/)
*Massive corruption on all levels of society and money is above the Law:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia)
*Widespread racism against everyone not-Russian. (Asians, People from Caucasus, westerners, blacks, jews, gays) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPUoHw25H2M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPUoHw25H2M)
*Russia has the world's highest rate of income inequality, barring a few Caribbean islands:  http://themoscownews.com/oped/20131011/191978277/Russias-income-inequality-the-root-of-most-evil.html (http://themoscownews.com/oped/20131011/191978277/Russias-income-inequality-the-root-of-most-evil.html)
*People that protest this, and alternative media are shut down, killed or silenced.

.....

Maidan wanted to be free from RF influence, and turn the other way. Those who already chose EU have way better living than them already (Rest of Eastern europe), and it kind of proves the point:

West > Russia

Even if we are devils in other parts of the world, in this case, RF is the greater devil.

The biggest warmongers on the planet are in 'murica, if the past 15 years have been any indication.  I'm less concerned about Putin doing something...'murica will once again try to play hero and fuck things up.  The US can't resist the temptation of MOAR OIL (and a freshwater port in southern Ukraine).  Its who they've become.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 13, 2014, 08:38:46 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 13, 2014, 07:08:25 pm
Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 13, 2014, 08:46:27 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 13, 2014, 12:28:21 pm
Where do you think mercenaries/ideological fighters lives? Not necessarily where they are employed, and probably they take some "vacations" from time to time :P Whats funniest is even those not at war countries files charges of "terrorism" on those caught with weapons...  :rolleyes:  I guess if they found out those people were fighting AGAINST pro-Russian in Ukraine they would release them with a pat on the back!

INB4 latvs jump their shit.
I believe even the paranoid Latvians know when "illegal possesion of guns" is applicable and when "terrorism" is suitable. In this particular case, you comfortably missed the part, where these guys were eagerly advocating and planning to leave to fight a legitimate government in another country. Sounds like terrorism to me, if there is a definition of one.

Quote from: Butan
Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
oh... I don't know... can you please define your "control"?

Quote from: Anuran on September 13, 2014, 07:43:26 am
I know that Putin is not innocent at all. But the US and the NATO have been more aggressive in the past than Russia and even now they continue sanctioning Russia without any reason.
If you don't want to watch the video then it's okay. I know you are falling for the mass media propaganda.
"I know russia aint a saint, but booh ooh - look at all the others doing the same, thats a good excuse for poor victim russia." NATO being aggressive? Can you please cite cases of such... AGGRESSIVENESS? And then - can you please define, what you would call an aggression?

As to sanctioning russia - I see no reason to stop, while russia continues to violate sovereignity of Ukraine, which is the main cause of the sanctions. True, there has been some withdrawal. To possitions, which would allow to be back in a second. However - another batch of half emtpy trucks just came, without checking, inspections or approval. Russia continues to stir shit in eastern Ukraine (e.g. same shit, which happened in Georgia, with giving russian pasports to citizens of Donetsk/Luhansk, I'm not even going to talk about making up shit regarding fighting german nuns, who are actually actors, too funny).

So how do you see "sanctioning russia" to be "without any reason"? I see too lax sanctions from my POV.

Now this shit:
Quote from: Tovi on September 13, 2014, 02:21:20 pm
Novorossia is the real revolutionary movment against oligarchy in Ukraine, with a real social program.

What is exactly Ukraine's political programm ? Send natural resources to the West, borrow money to IMF, austerity plan, privatization, patriotic war against anything russian, NATO bases and missiles lauchers etc.
This shit I will put next to "Ukraine does have its own geopolitical interests, but these interests are being superseded by Western and Russian geopolitical interests." by Murmi.

Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:36:24 pm
The biggest warmongers on the planet are in 'murica, if the past 15 years have been any indication.  I'm less concerned about Putin doing something...'murica will once again try to play hero and fuck things up.  The US can't resist the temptation of MOAR OIL (and a freshwater port in southern Ukraine).  Its who they've become.
Way to dodge the arguments. "Oooohhhh.. look, a buterfly" works as well, try it next time.

I frankly share Thomeks sentiment there: west are not ideal, but as one bible lover put it :
Quote from: DonNicko on September 11, 2014, 01:42:49 pm
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
(Matthew 7:3-5)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 13, 2014, 08:53:48 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 08:34:02 pm

Maidan wanted to be free from RF influence

Can somebody from experts show me what influence was that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:58:14 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 13, 2014, 08:53:48 pm
Can somebody from experts show me what influence was that?

People are under the impression that Russia is still the big bad from the 1980's, so therefore anything supporting Russia even slightly is immediately null and void in their minds.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 13, 2014, 09:12:15 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:58:14 pm
People are under the impression that Russia is still the big bad from the 1980's, so therefore anything supporting Russia even slightly is immediately null and void in their minds.
Oh... so we should simply ignor russia annexing Crimea, russia arming/supporting/training rebels, or  "rebels" and in the latest counter-offensive - the numerous proofs of actuall russian army doing fighting in Ukraine, because...russia is not the baddie fo 1980's, but rather a ... what? A new bully, that noone should resist and simply "bend over harder" for them?

Whats your "impression" on the russia, mind you? That they are behaving the way you would like your neighbors to behave? I see LITTLE wonder, that ALL the countries, which russia deemed "not friends" for now are eagerly jumping at chances of alternative alliances to increase their security.

For example the Kazachstan, which is "not even a country", is still russian friend, if russia-friendly dictator is ruling it.

*Edited for clarity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 09:19:40 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 13, 2014, 09:12:15 pm
Oh... so we should simply ignor russia annexing Crimea, russia arming/supporting/training rebels, or  "rebels" and in the latest counter-offensive - the numerous proofs of actuall russian army doing fighting in Ukraine, because...russia is not the baddie fo 1980's, but rather a ... what? A new bully, that noone should resist and simply "bend over harder" for them?

Whats your "impression" on the russia, mind you? That they are behaving the way you would like your neighbors to behave? I see LITTLE wonder, that ALL the countries, which russia deemed "not friends" for now are eagerly jumping at chances of alternative alliances to increase their security. Like for example the Kazachstan, which is "not even a country", if russian friendly dictator is not ruling it.

If you want petty dictators, try looking at US/EU.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on September 13, 2014, 09:22:38 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 13, 2014, 09:12:15 pm
Oh... so we should simply ignor russia annexing Crimea, russia arming/supporting/training rebels, or  "rebels" and in the latest counter-offensive - the numerous proofs of actuall russian army doing fighting in Ukraine, because...russia is not the baddie fo 1980's, but rather a ... what? A new bully, that noone should resist and simply "bend over harder" for them?

Whats your "impression" on the russia, mind you? That they are behaving the way you would like your neighbors to behave? I see LITTLE wonder, that ALL the countries, which russia deemed "not friends" for now are eagerly jumping at chances of alternative alliances to increase their security.

For example the Kazachstan, which is "not even a country", is still russian friend, if russia-friendly dictator is ruling it.

*Edited for clarity.

I think we should ask why, and the answer seems to be because there was American involvement in Crimean government. I mean, if China was as involved in affecting an overthrow of Canadian government, you best believe that the United States would probably invade Canada to 'liberate' it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 09:43:33 pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d5b_1410631687

Poroshenko's lies compiled into a video, including Poroshenko himself stating volunteers will receive 1000 hryvnia a month and 1,000,000 hryvnia life insurance. And people here are stating that these "volunteers" aren't mercenaries..

Of course, more evidence of my statements, even irrefutable evidence will not be absorbed by the likes of Xant and company.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 13, 2014, 09:44:32 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 13, 2014, 07:18:40 pm
I will translate an article about the downing of MH17 later.

(click to show/hide)


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 09:52:18 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 08:34:02 pm
OK.. I think its clear now after 100s of pages:

The majority who supports RF are either:
A. Nationalistic Russians. (Nationalistic anything=Pretty narrow minded and retarded)
B. Conspiracy freaks.

What they share is skepticism about the world hegemony of the west, which is a fair point!

Yes the US is bad,

yes Europe is bad,
I wholeheartedly agree.

There are however many things much worse than US and EU. One of them are the Russian Federation represented by Putin and his oligarchs.

If you doubt me:
*People are leaving the country en masse:  http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/russian-emigration-spikes-in-2013-2014/ (http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/russian-emigration-spikes-in-2013-2014/)
*Massive corruption on all levels of society and money is above the Law:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia)
*Widespread racism against everyone not-Russian. (Asians, People from Caucasus, westerners, blacks, jews, gays) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPUoHw25H2M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPUoHw25H2M)
*Russia has the world's highest rate of income inequality, barring a few Caribbean islands:  http://themoscownews.com/oped/20131011/191978277/Russias-income-inequality-the-root-of-most-evil.html (http://themoscownews.com/oped/20131011/191978277/Russias-income-inequality-the-root-of-most-evil.html)
*People that protest this, and alternative media are shut down, killed or silenced.

.....

Maidan wanted to be free from RF influence, and turn the other way. Those who already chose EU have way better living than them already (Rest of Eastern europe), and it kind of proves the point:

West > Russia

Even if we are devils in other parts of the world, in this case, RF is the greater devil.

Thomek, the logic in your argument which states living conditions, apparent corruption, apparent lack of freedoms in the Russian Federation and that the West being better than the RF is not an argument that can be used to justify and therefore is flawed.War and potentially the breakout of WW3 is far worse than anything that exists in any society that is currently not at war. I doubt any of us have lived in a war zone, tell me of the living conditions and levels of racism and violence in these circumstances instead, and you should agree that anything is better.

Now my summary of the pro-Ukrainian fascist government posters here.

Most of these posters have been brought up in nations which were less than half a century ago occupied by the Soviet Union. These peoples opinions and perspective on events are emotionally charged, and encouraged by anti-Russian propaganda and pro-Western propaganda, horror stories from the past that form a type of anti-Russian paranoia that pervades amongst these societies. This all leads to paranoid, indoctrinated, propagandised individuals with emotionally charged points of view trying to make a case supporting Western hypocrisy and the rise of Naz ism in Ukraine today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 13, 2014, 10:06:26 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 09:52:18 pm
I doubt any of us have lived in a war zone, tell me of the living conditions and levels of racism and violence in these circumstances instead, and you should agree that anything is better.

I did, survived two wars so far as a kid (both included large scale bombing). Thomek has a point, he perfectly explained Yugoslavia from the 90s. I'm fairly certain RF is quite similar. When next war strikes, I'll know what to do and how to keep my family safe and survive the whole thing. Never killed a person before or even seriously harmed, but if WW3 happens, won't hesitate for a second.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 13, 2014, 10:18:45 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 13, 2014, 09:44:32 pm
(click to show/hide)


(click to show/hide)

Too complicated. Here is the explanation :

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 13, 2014, 10:58:08 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 13, 2014, 10:06:26 pm
I did, survived two wars so far as a kid (both included large scale bombing). Thomek has a point, he perfectly explained Yugoslavia from the 90s. I'm fairly certain RF is quite similar. When next war strikes, I'll know what to do and how to keep my family safe and survive the whole thing. Never killed a person before or even seriously harmed, but if WW3 happens, won't hesitate for a second.

He has a point, but it's also a point that blatantly whitewashes the West. Corruption and oligarchy is not unique to the RF, it's a plague that exists in most societies, sometimes it's more obvious at times in one society than another, but it exists everywhere. Sure maybe there are large parts of the West which do enjoy higher living standards, but let's say a major war does break out, who will be better off, who would stand the greater chance of survival, if it is at all possible? Will it be those who've enjoyed high living standards all their lives or those who're used to living in sometimes rugged and harsh conditions. Sometimes what we perceive to be higher living standards in the West is not a loss on other societies. Look at tribal cultures, they hunt to feed themselves, they build their own homes, they don't have central heating and running water but they exist and in many cases rather contently, financially we'd call them impoverished, materially we'd judge them to be lacking in possessions, but money and material objects are not the sole purpose of our existence.

Just out of curiosity what wars did you live through? I couldn't imagine it, being privileged enough to have lived in a nation that's enjoyed relative peace my whole life, (almost 27 years), but a nation that has too sent its armies around the world and has played its part in the deaths of hundreds of thousands this century alone. The U.S as a nation is in an even more comfortable position, not having experienced  war on its mainland since the American civil war, and this comfort encourages a type of mind-set in which we can either bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything is ok or a mind set that desensitises us from the suffering of peoples around the world. A mind set which sees us remain passive when our politicians lie to our faces and send young men to their deaths while destroying the infrastructure of nations which took decades to build not to mention the sovereign armies of those states, whom are dying to defend their own nations from our aggression in conflicts in which tens, hundreds of thousands of civilians die.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 14, 2014, 12:00:25 am
US really needs to look in the fucking mirror before making accusations of LOL RUSSIA EVIL.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 14, 2014, 12:02:17 am
There is corruption everywhere but is different in the west. It's not so blatant, not so obvious, it's not something people consider as normal. People look at you as a fool if you try to explain them what they are doing wrong and why it is wrong. Violent part of society that runs the whole things (criminals) will try to kill you if they don't like the way you're looking at them, if they sense you're not like them. And after they kill you, no one will give a single fuck.

Communist countries were corrupt as fuck, but it all amplified to a degree that is hard to swallow for any westerners, after the Fall of Berlin Wall, when those countries collapsed. Just like with Ukraine, west didn't choose instruments to deal with the red threat. Criminals were chosen to ruin countries, steal everything that can be stolen and ruin society (middle class does not exist in post communist countries). There are Russian documentaries which explain fall of communist and rise of oligarchs. They were petty criminals, regular thugs who were given the chance to steal from people and gather incredible wealth. And as per some rule, there were two forces. Children of dissidents who were placed by foreign intelligence agencies and domestic criminals and killers who worked for secret service of country in question. They clashed often and changed places on the top, that process is known as transition of post communist countries. Both groups can break the law and get with it, because corruption level is through the roof. If you don't belong to any of those groups, consider yourself as fucked and do everything you can to flee the country and start your life somewhere else.

When the whole thing started, I had no clue what was going on. Was drawing teenage mutant ninja turtles, namely Leonardo, when my mother called for me and when we left the house. War in question is Balkan Civil War in Bosnia (was in gym hall as 5 year old for 20 days with 2000 people while Serbs and Croats were bombing the place), then going through multiple barricades with my closest family where you had to fake salute of each nationality to get through, then picked up by convicted slavic pedo high priest who actually helped us (didn't know he was pedo back then, bet he liked me and my brother a bit too much to let us die). Then came to Serbia where everyone labeled me as Muslim because I had different accent and where old people asked kids for their name and after that asked which side they belong to, lived as a refugee for a short time, sleeping under open sky couple of times... 8 years after that Serbia tried to deal with Kosovo muslims (Albanians) by killing them in great numbers and burring them in hidden mass graveyards), west found out and decided to punish Serbia by bombing tactical targets. Which is mainly how it went, sadly I didn't know there was secret military installation under hill 200 meters from my house... also it was dangerous to go outside because NATO used cassette (cluster) bombs and other kinds of forbidden stuff, so I spent couple of months in atomic shelter... after that country sent fresh recruits to Kosovo to serve... while it was still war vs Kosovo Liberation Army. Luckily I didn't have to shoot from the gun and never was in serious danger but know kids my age who died in battles... there are people who had it far worse than me, my uncle was tortured by Serbs for few months (he labeled as Croatian). Some people lived in refugee camps for a decade (pretty much same shit as concentration camp, except you won't be killed at the end, but life condition are the same). Some people tried to be heroes and stop the madness and former neighbors spilling blood of each other, but they were labeled as traitors by both side and executed. Happened often on the border. It was a time when it was dangerous to act as a normal person, to speak the truth, to do things that make sense. Anyone who tried that was being pushed away, laughed at, labeled as lunatic, traitor, enemy, tortured, killed. If you don't think, talk and act as majority of lunatics your existence will be nullified in every way imaginable.

That is the kind of shit that happens in Ukraine right now. Many things happen in Iraq and Syria as well. Those people who are crucified, they refused to "fight for the muslim cause" and aren't labeled as muslims anymore. And those who torture them, those are children of those who fled same countries and asked for asylum in European countries. Pretty fucked up, isn't it?

West is undeniably better option but I hate when they act like they are flawless flower that only spread love and care for every life, because I know very well that isn't the case.

Worst thing of this kind USA government ever did was undeniably Granada. That was school book example of commie scare, based on bullshit. Soviets didn't have anything with it, it was just bunch of people thinking they are Che, fighting centuries old class war. And they had support of majority and it wasn't staged, it was real majority. Yet USA roflstomped them. I can find many excuses for Ukraine, for Lybia, for Egypt, for Yugoslavia, for many similar scenarios. But when it comes to Grenada, there is just no excuse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 14, 2014, 12:28:19 am
Quote from: Leshma on September 14, 2014, 12:02:17 am
Worst thing of this kind USA government ever did was undeniably Granada. That was school book example of commie scare, based on bullshit. Soviets didn't have anything with it, it was just bunch of people thinking they are Che, fighting centuries old class war. And they had support of majority and it wasn't staged, it was real majority. Yet USA roflstomped them. I can find many excuses for Ukraine, for Lybia, for Egypt, for Yugoslavia, for many similar scenarios. But when it comes to Grenada, there is just no excuse.

Wasn't around for Granada but I do remember Slick Dick Willy fucking up Yugoslavia in a similar matter to what you described.

Having the US putting its head into the sand would be a blessing at this point.  We (US) seem to have a knack for making the wrong decisions, constantly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 14, 2014, 12:30:24 am
Quote from: Thomek on September 13, 2014, 08:34:02 pm
Yes the US is bad,
yes Europe is bad,
I wholeheartedly agree.

[...]

West > Russia

Even if we are devils in other parts of the world, in this case, RF is the greater devil.

I had so much hope at first then end of your post made me cry  :cry:



My opinion:

West > Russia : on certain domestic/foreign matters
Russia > West : on other domestic/foreign matters
West = Russia : on some more

And on the peculiar thread-related matter of manipulative warmongering its hard to disagree about West being way more experienced and capable than Russia. To try to sidetrack to other unrelated issues (like national corruption and social issues) to show Russia as a bad country, is to me, pure smoke screen.
Sure Russia is not the perfect paradise, nowhere is, but its hard to take you guys serious, when speaking of the current Ukrainian situation. Where and when ANY western states are even slightly concerned by the Ukrainian crisis, coming here and trying to make Russia appear as the greater devil, is historical objective nonsense.


At the end of the day, still doesnt mean Russia is doing good things back there, we all have to weight our words here; but everytime we summon worldwide geopolitical issues, the people defending the" free world" in this topic should become way more humble, or not speak of it anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 12:33:14 am
Quote from: Leshma on September 14, 2014, 12:02:17 am
There is corruption everywhere but is different in the west. It's not so blatant, not so obvious, it's not something people consider as normal. People look at you as a fool if you try to explain them what they are doing wrong and why it is wrong. Violent part of society that runs the whole things (criminals) will try to kill you if they don't like the way you're looking at them, if they sense you're not like them. And after they kill you, no one will give a single fuck.

Communist countries were corrupt as fuck, but it all amplified to a degree that is hard to swallow for any westerners, after the Fall of Berlin Wall, when those countries collapsed. Just like with Ukraine, west didn't choose instruments to deal with the red threat. Criminals were chosen to ruin countries, steal everything that can be stolen and ruin society (middle class does not exist in post communist countries). There are Russian documentaries which explain fall of communist and rise of oligarchs. They were petty criminals, regular thugs who were given the chance to steal from people and gather incredible wealth. And as per some rule, there were two forces. Children of dissidents who were placed by foreign intelligence agencies and domestic criminals and killers who worked for secret service of country in question. They clashed often and changed places on the top, that process is known as transition of post communist countries. Both groups can break the law and get with it, because corruption level is through the roof. If you don't belong to any of those groups, consider yourself as fucked and do everything you can to flee the country and start your life somewhere else.

When the whole thing started, I had no clue what was going on. Was drawing teenage mutant ninja turtles, namely Leonardo, when my mother called for me and when we left the house. War in question is Balkan Civil War in Bosnia (was in gym hall as 5 year old for 20 days with 2000 people while Serbs and Croats were bombing the place), then going through multiple barricades with my closest family where you had to fake salute of each nationality to get through, then picked up by convicted slavic pedo high priest who actually helped us (didn't know he was pedo back then, bet he liked me and my brother a bit too much to let us die). Then came to Serbia where everyone labeled me as Muslim because I had different accent and where old people asked kids for their name and after that asked which side they belong to, lived as a refugee for a short time, sleeping under open sky couple of times... 8 years after that Serbia tried to deal with Kosovo muslims (Albanians) by killing them in great numbers and burring them in hidden mass graveyards), west found out and decided to punish Serbia by bombing tactical targets. Which is mainly how it went, sadly I didn't know there was secret military installation under hill 200 meters from my house... also it was dangerous to go outside because NATO used cassette (cluster) bombs and other kinds of forbidden stuff, so I spent couple of months in atomic shelter... after that country sent fresh recruits to Kosovo to serve... while it was still war vs Kosovo Liberation Army. Luckily I didn't have to shoot from the gun and never was in serious danger but know kids my age who died in battles... there are people who had it far worse than me, my uncle was tortured by Serbs for few months (he labeled as Croatian). Some people lived in refugee camps for a decade (pretty much same shit as concentration camp, except you won't be killed at the end, but life condition are the same). Some people tried to be heroes and stop the madness and former neighbors spilling blood of each other, but they were labeled as traitors by both side and executed. Happened often on the border. It was a time when it was dangerous to act as a normal person, to speak the truth, to do things that make sense. Anyone who tried that was being pushed away, laughed at, labeled as lunatic, traitor, enemy, tortured, killed. If you don't think, talk and act as majority of lunatics your existence will be nullified in every way imaginable.

That is the kind of shit that happens in Ukraine right now. Many things happen in Iraq and Syria as well. Those people who are crucified, they refused to "fight for the muslim cause" and aren't labeled as muslims anymore. And those who torture them, those are children of those who fled same countries and asked for asylum in European countries. Pretty fucked up, isn't it?

West is undeniably better option but I hate when they act like they are flawless flower that only spread love and care for every life, because I know very well that isn't the case.

Worst thing of this kind USA government ever did was undeniably Granada. That was school book example of commie scare, based on bullshit. Soviets didn't have anything with it, it was just bunch of people thinking they are Che, fighting centuries old class war. And they had support of majority and it wasn't staged, it was real majority. Yet USA roflstomped them. I can find many excuses for Ukraine, for Lybia, for Egypt, for Yugoslavia, for many similar scenarios. But when it comes to Grenada, there is just no excuse.

Thank you for sharing your story.

I fear that we have all been too easily deceived, the West has its oligarchs, haven't you heard of George Soros, the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, the Bushes... And there are many more. The West does operate different to the East and that's the depth in which most people are able to see the world, in the East corruption may be more blatant and overt and people engaging in it may be less ashamed, in the West it is done covertly, behind closed doors, and in an arguably more intelligent, cunning way. The reality of the situation is, in the West our prosperity for decades now is largely constructed upon national debt, and it won't last forever, the bubble will burst, that is unless action is taken to stop it bursting, how does one preserve a bubble? By shaving away the spikes, that which may pop it, or in this case the opposing geopolitical financial institutions and geopolitical groups behind them. Iraq tried to sell its oil in Euros, bye bye Saddam, Libya tried to sell its oil for gold, bye bye Gaddafi. I once said what "our" western system needs to maintain itself is another world war, and as times goes on month on month it seems to be more of a possibility. In the original cold war it took decades before we had the Cuban Missile crisis and the world was on the brink of nuclear war. I fear as technology and ideologies and the agendas driven by them advance the pace of such events will only quicken and potentially push us all toward another brink.

It's a shame really.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on September 14, 2014, 12:35:18 am
Thanks Leshma, I've been curious about your personal account of the war.

I remember reading that most of the vast atrocities brought before the war crimes tribunal happened after the NATO bombings, which only increased the violence. (edit: found the article: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200005--.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 14, 2014, 12:35:30 am
Quote from: Butan on September 13, 2014, 07:08:25 pm
Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
And "prosperous democracies", please?  democracies are massively corrupted and manipulated, prosperity-wise US/EU and most countries which applied to their influence circlejerk are on a downward slope.

Do you have anything backing up that claim?

About corruption: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
Prosperity-wise the US and EU are losing their headstart. However, less-developed countries which tend to align themselves with the West have been growing much more rapidly than similar countries that didn't. Especially those that are still a backwater of a regional bully (Belarus and NK come to mind). The influence circlejerk of the West has been boosting commerce and prosperity without which Poland and most of the other eastern members of the EU would be far worse off. Would you say that Poland is on a downward slope?

Quote from: Butan on September 14, 2014, 12:30:24 am
At the end of the day, still doesnt mean Russia is doing good things back there, we all have to weight our words here; but everytime we summon worldwide geopolitical issues, the people defending the free world in this topic should become way more humble, or not speak of it anymore.

It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 14, 2014, 12:38:50 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 14, 2014, 12:35:30 am
It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.

For my part, I summon it only to show similarities when there is too much false disparities or obvious examples to be made.
Let those you mention go to hell, I am as sick as you of badly thought justifications :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 14, 2014, 12:40:22 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 14, 2014, 12:35:30 am
Do you have anything backing up that claim?

About corruption: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
Prosperity-wise the US and EU are losing their headstart. However, less-developed countries which tend to align themselves with the West have been growing much more rapidly than similar countries that didn't. Especially those that are still a backwater of a regional bully (Belarus and NK come to mind). The influence circlejerk of the West has been boosting commerce and prosperity without which Poland and most of the other eastern members of the EU would be far worse off. Would you say that Poland is on a downward slope?

It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.

US is well on its way downwards, it used the be the world's top exporter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 12:45:55 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 14, 2014, 12:35:30 am
Do you have anything backing up that claim?

About corruption: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
Prosperity-wise the US and EU are losing their headstart. However, less-developed countries which tend to align themselves with the West have been growing much more rapidly than similar countries that didn't. Especially those that are still a backwater of a regional bully (Belarus and NK come to mind). The influence circlejerk of the West has been boosting commerce and prosperity without which Poland and most of the other eastern members of the EU would be far worse off. Would you say that Poland is on a downward slope?

It's strange, I don't recall most of the "people defending the free world" summoning worldwide geopolitical issues in this thread. However, it has been repeatedly hammered by pro-putin guys here that any action Russia takes in Ukraine is perfectly justified because of "the encirclement of Russia" and other nationalistic nonsense.

I guess if we change the word justified to understand, or excuse then you might understand where anti-NATO commenters are coming from.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 14, 2014, 02:46:33 am
Eastern Europa has always been richer than Russia, Ukraine or Belarus. Except, maybe, Romania and Bulgaria, wich are still very poor.

But there is another point. All those countries contracted a lot of debts to support their growth. So now they must pay back. While Russia has quite no debt and can invest in its economy and keep its sovereignty.
In long term it will pay. Look at Greece situation now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 14, 2014, 07:54:59 am
Quote from: Butan on September 14, 2014, 12:30:24 am
My opinion:

West > Russia : on certain domestic/foreign matters
Russia > West : on other domestic/foreign matters
West = Russia : on some more

And on the peculiar thread-related matter of manipulative warmongering its hard to disagree about West being way more experienced and capable than Russia. To try to sidetrack to other unrelated issues (like national corruption and social issues) to show Russia as a bad country, is to me, pure smoke screen.
Sure Russia is not the perfect paradise, nowhere is, but its hard to take you guys serious, when speaking of the current Ukrainian situation. Where and when ANY western states are even slightly concerned by the Ukrainian crisis, coming here and trying to make Russia appear as the greater devil, is historical objective nonsense.


At the end of the day, still doesnt mean Russia is doing good things back there, we all have to weight our words here; but everytime we summon worldwide geopolitical issues, the people defending the" free world" in this topic should become way more humble, or not speak of it anymore.
Can you please tell us, based on what did you form your oppinion? You have been to russia? Met people there? Or read some relevant materian on RT? What exactly?

Leshma had war experience. I dare say  I had some 1990's maidan experience (that "flawless" feeling when your parents are where tanks are rollingm is just priceless, to put it in "mastercard" terms). Getting rid of russia and "bending over" to be fucked by corrupt west was the best fucking thing, that happened to my country.

Consider: who has a better understanding of both alternatives? Die-hard liar/moron murmi, who has barely an understanding about what russia actually is ON THE GROUND? You, having lived all your life in france (I assume)? Tovi, who still insists that there is naztee junta ruling Ukraine? Or Thomek, me, [PTX], who have actually SEEN, LIVED and FELT both sides?

I understand perfectly well the wishes to find common ground, something to compare, get closer and have an agreement with russia, and then maybe resolve differences and live hapily ever after together. Newsflash is this: IT DID NOT WORK, because russia can't swallow Ukraine choosing something else, than "slav world", something else than "russian values" (what are those btw, just for curiosity?). russia can't swallow it, because if somehow, by an accident and pure luck, ukraine turns out into another Poland or god forbit Estonia - russia will start to crumble from within, because people will start to ask for changes.

Oh, and just for the sake of argument - what cases "Russia > West : on other domestic/foreign matters" could you identify?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 14, 2014, 07:57:05 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 12:33:14 am
In the original cold war it took decades before we had the Cuban Missile crisis and the world was on the brink of nuclear war.

Not to forget that 1959, the US stationed two packs each containing 25 PGM-19 Jupiter missiles in Turkey which were concentrated on USSR!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 14, 2014, 08:13:39 am
Quote from: Anuran on September 14, 2014, 07:57:05 am
Not to forget that 1959, the US stationed two packs each containing 25 PGM-19 Jupiter missiles in Turkey which were concentrated on USSR!
You forgot to mention, that it is Ukraines, WEST and NATO fault (basically - everyone except russia), that russia has invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. Sounds like a "only in russia" thing.

Oh, and found this on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2gal45/xpost_for_the_hague_tribunal_summary_of_hard/ Any sceptics caring to refute some/any of these?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 14, 2014, 08:22:11 am
What I don't get is how damn stupid you nationalistic ones can be.

You thinking of the DNR or so called "Novorossiya" as freedomfighting angels who are the best thing ever, and talk about Ukraine as if they were chocolate chip cookie germany.

Would be funny to drop some of them into this glorious newrussia to see how their romanticized patriotic heroes would treat them  :lol:

There is no logical reason to be pro-russian if you are in the west. Unless you are a massive retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 14, 2014, 09:05:28 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 14, 2014, 08:13:39 am
You forgot to mention, that it is Ukraines, WEST and NATO fault (basically - everyone except russia), that russia has invaded and annexed part of Ukraine. Sounds like a "only in russia" thing.

Oh, and found this on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2gal45/xpost_for_the_hague_tribunal_summary_of_hard/ Any sceptics caring to refute some/any of these?

...reddit is a reputable source now?  Excuse me while I head desk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 14, 2014, 09:27:06 am
iam sure England and EU as a true europeans and lovers of democracy will fully support Scotland in their desire to self-determination. The European Union is happy to accept them, as they were a few years in the Union as a part of Britain, and Britain will allow them to use pounds sterling as the national currency, and the International Bank to allocate them credit for the development of their young democratic country. Cos its a europe the paradise of democracy and freedom
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 14, 2014, 09:33:04 am
Quote from: Christo on September 14, 2014, 08:22:11 am
There is no logical reason to be pro-russian if you are in the west. Unless you are a massive retard.
There isnt even any logical reason to be pro-russian if you are russian. More squarekilometers and more modern tanks wont reduce poverty, it just helps to ignore it for a few years and create a false sense of national pride, which is only beneficial to the people in power cause it is a way to keep angry anti-government rioters away. Or create angry pro-government rioters to counter the angry anti-government rioters.

Quote from: Vovka on September 14, 2014, 09:27:06 am
(click to show/hide)

I know you just wrote that sounding all ironic, but it is a distinct possibility.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 14, 2014, 09:36:43 am
Quote from: Xant on September 13, 2014, 08:14:12 pm
Can you apple a strawberry if you have to squeeze a potato?
Made me crack an honest smile! :D

And tbh... by now I've seen as many old lady-videos with "Russia better WOOHOOO!" on live leak as I've seen old ladies-videos with "This war is awful, I want those separatists to just leave to Russia."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 14, 2014, 10:29:29 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on September 14, 2014, 09:05:28 am
...reddit is a reputable source now?  Excuse me while I head desk.
Oh no, not the reddit. The actual things written in the post. Would it change anything if I posted the items here? I doub it  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 14, 2014, 12:10:30 pm
Quote from: Tibe on September 14, 2014, 09:33:04 am
I know you just wrote that sounding all ironic, but it is a distinct possibility.

It's only funny if you have been in contact with the tropes of Russian TV.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 14, 2014, 02:22:18 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 14, 2014, 10:29:29 am
Oh no, not the reddit. The actual things written in the post. Would it change anything if I posted the items here? I doub it  :rolleyes:

I've looked over most of the content, and it is good report.
I am fairly convinced of Russian presence for a few months now, there is only debate on the scale and importance of it, which I think is minor in manpower term, but large in hardware support. The rebellion exist and it has a cause, but it has been helped by exterior agents. Probably would have gone extinct without them, or at least forgo open field battles and went underground. The newly formed Ukrainian government has all reason to fight against them and to call as much help as they can from their allies and new benefactors.
Its war, even though there is a ceasefire in effect and a political solution is open.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 02:22:34 pm
When you equate being anti-NATO, or people trying to understand what's really going on in a conflict and geopolitical situation to being pro-Russia nationalists, you must be an utter retard riding on the drivel drip fed to you by the system in which you were bought up. It would have been easy for myself to have just agreed with our own governments view on the situation, the media's stories reporting Kiev's point of view as fact time and time again with little to no proof while continuing to provide little to no balanced media coverage that shows the Russian governments and pro-Russian separatists point of view, but then that would be too easily and I would be deceiving myself.

You guys can dribble on in your alternate universe all you like where people who don't agree with you or who try to understand more than you are willing to do so are merely "retards". In-fact, since you think we're retards, why don't you guys just stop posting, you're arguing with retards right? Retards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 14, 2014, 03:04:16 pm
I said either pro russia nationalist *or conspiracy nut..

I take all media with a grain of salt Murmi. But that doesn't mean that the opposite is always true. I'm also not particularly pro-NATO. I think its too controlled by US, and deliver way too many bombs here and there. I'm not a great fan of capitalism either, and I think wealth needs to be re-distributed at the death of any one person.

But in this case I so totally understand the Maidan protesters. I had friends there, and this was thousands of thousands of normal people, freezing outside in up to 20 minus for months and months. They have seen the west is not some kind of scary morally corrupt terrible thing the Russian propaganda paints it as. You can call it junta, or you can call it revolution. This had more in common with revolution.

Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

This is what's happening in Ukraine.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 14, 2014, 04:02:26 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on September 14, 2014, 12:35:18 am
I remember reading that most of the vast atrocities brought before the war crimes tribunal happened after the NATO bombings, which only increased the violence. (edit: found the article: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200005--.html)

Quote
The document you have selected is temporarily missing or invalid.

Kosovo has been a problem for Serbia/Yugoslavia for almost a century. It's not something that popped out of thin air during the 90s. But communist government had different approach and tried to appease Albanians who lived in Kosovo. Things changed with Milosevic (he came to power in 1987), that is when mass killings started. I'm fairly sure more people has been killed before NATO bombing. After NATO bombing Serbia lost most of the influence, Serbian minority fled the territory because "terrorists" or fighters were raiding their homes. Doubt that Serbian government could organize mass killings of Albanian civilians after NATO bombing, country was too weak, that is why Milosevic capitulated. Serbian people didn't know any of that in the beginning, because Milosevic was a tyrant and common people were busy with different matters (how to survive the war, inflation, sanctions, criminals...)

Whole thing started during Ottoman Empire, both Serbs and Albanians were part of Ottoman Empire for centuries and held some pretty important positions. As Ottomans weakened, they pushed out former non muslims away from positions of power. People who live in Kosovo and consider themselves Albanians are actually descendants of former Slavic converts to Islam. That's the true reason for strong hatred between them. True Albanians could never hate Serbs (and vice versa) like converts did. There is a saying but dunno how to properly translate it. It goes something like this: A convert is worse than a Turk. And it's very true, because those who did the worst crimes in many wars during past centuries were always some kind of converts.

And as time passed, Kosovo Albanians grew in numbers (thanks to their religion and huge losses Serbia had during both World Wars) and they became majority. Serbs who lived in Kosovo didn't care much about it, mostly used it for their own gain. Now everyone in Serbia is crying how "Kosovo is heart of Serbia" but truth is they didn't give actual fuck what will happen to Kosovo, they just exploited it.

Fun fact that many people don't know is that both Croatians and Serbs in the beginning were Slavs who lived on borders and were mainly soldiers, whose role was to protect "Slavic Empire in the making" from outsiders. That is why they fought so many wars in history, which is unusual for such smallish countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 14, 2014, 04:25:43 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 14, 2014, 03:04:16 pm
Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

Our european government would need balls to plan such a thing :lol: all they do is follow US wars and/or bomb weak countries to death.

I wonder what polonium poisoning accusations, election frauds, propaganda has to do with Ukraine current civil war situation example btw? Was Ianukovitch prime minister poisoned? Was his election done by Russian citizens? Was Russian TV responsible for the Ukrainian choice?
And the "rebellion created" accusation is so FUBAR... the supplying is ok though.

For the sake of your example:
If England had a 10 times weaker army than France and wasnt in any diplomatic union, and England had just switched to France deadly enemy while housing a large french minority inside its borders and launching anti-terrorist forces and army against anyone who dared protest. Well, lets say I would... (very dangerous word ahead...) UNDERSTAND.



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 05:03:00 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 14, 2014, 03:04:16 pm
I said either pro russia nationalist *or conspiracy nut..

I take all media with a grain of salt Murmi. But that doesn't mean that the opposite is always true. I'm also not particularly pro-NATO. I think its too controlled by US, and deliver way too many bombs here and there. I'm not a great fan of capitalism either, and I think wealth needs to be re-distributed at the death of any one person.

But in this case I so totally understand the Maidan protesters. I had friends there, and this was thousands of thousands of normal people, freezing outside in up to 20 minus for months and months. They have seen the west is not some kind of scary morally corrupt terrible thing the Russian propaganda paints it as. You can call it junta, or you can call it revolution. This had more in common with revolution.

Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

This is what's happening in Ukraine.

Conspiracy nut.. Right. There are always government conspiracies to subvert the public opinion and at the same time galvanise the same public to support what on the surface appears to be a noble or just cause when really there is another agenda not disseminated through the media to the public, as per the example I provided in the other thread about retired generals attempting to galvanise support for boots on the ground or to arm the Syrian rebels in Iraq/Syria to face ISIS/Assad. On the face of it from the medias portrayal it's as though they give opinions freely based on the knowledge of their past experience in the military, when in reality they are paid for their opinions and in some cases have vested interests in on-going conflicts through the sale of arms. Therefore the media is complicit in withholding the whole truth and decides to only portray half the truth so that the argument given by the paid commentators are not detracted from.

http://www.academia.org/how-elites-subvert-policy/

While I don't agree with some information in the link posted, I quote this paragraph from the link provided, as it does seem apt in light of some of the commentators here.

"He said that the Americans do not understand important parts of policies, like trade-offs, and too often “respond to poll questions in a vacuum.” Americans, Thrall lamented, “express their feelings and emotions rather than their lack of knowledge” and these polls “reflect feelings about the president and the rest of the world,” but “don’t provide much in conventional wisdom.”"

As we've seen with this whole focus on Putin, and names childish names being disseminated such as "Putler", and the lack of focus on all actors in this mess and the overriding geopolitical aspects.

And, regardless of the emotional investment you have in the situation Thomek, a coup is a coup. You can view it through rose tinted glasses if you like but that's what it is. If the Ukrainian parliament had impeached Yanukovych without the death threats from the armed protestors largely associated with the right sector camp then I guess Russia, and other people in the world could not call what happened a coup, and his overthrow would be considered legitimate by all parties involved in todays mess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 14, 2014, 05:19:05 pm
Today morning Donetsk was shelled about 38 times. For now about 20 civilians were killed, 6 are seriously wounded, about 18 people are easily wounded.
Great ceasefire from Kiev. Now somebody will say that they bomb themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 14, 2014, 05:29:08 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 14, 2014, 05:19:05 pm
Today morning Donetsk was shelled about 38 times. For now about 20 civilians were killed, 6 are seriously wounded, about 18 people are easily wounded.
Great ceasefire from Kiev. Now somebody will say that they bomb themselves.

How many artillery strike from rebel side though?

I think the ceasefire is not perfectly applied but still in effect right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 14, 2014, 05:32:39 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 14, 2014, 05:29:08 pm
How many artillery strike from rebel side though?

I think the ceasefire is not perfectly applied but still in effect right?
Yes ceasefire is still in effect, about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying, anyway 20 civilians are dead
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on September 14, 2014, 05:44:16 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 14, 2014, 03:04:16 pm
I said either pro russia nationalist *or conspiracy nut..

I take all media with a grain of salt Murmi. But that doesn't mean that the opposite is always true. I'm also not particularly pro-NATO. I think its too controlled by US, and deliver way too many bombs here and there. I'm not a great fan of capitalism either, and I think wealth needs to be re-distributed at the death of any one person.

But in this case I so totally understand the Maidan protesters. I had friends there, and this was thousands of thousands of normal people, freezing outside in up to 20 minus for months and months. They have seen the west is not some kind of scary morally corrupt terrible thing the Russian propaganda paints it as. You can call it junta, or you can call it revolution. This had more in common with revolution.

Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

This is what's happening in Ukraine.

I do believe the Maidan revolution was justified- shooting your own citizens is always a red flag. However, the United States should not have been involved in it. It's not our backyard. It's Russia's. Why are we messing with it? That's what I'm annoyed with. And then we're (Americans) acting as if the Russians had no justification to do this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 14, 2014, 06:16:47 pm

From 2012. Besides other aspects this guy also talks about a world war, which for example can save the dollar.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 14, 2014, 06:20:05 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 14, 2014, 06:16:47 pm
From 2012. Besides other aspects this guy also talks about a world war, which for example can save the dollar.

You know what will save the dollar? People in America Realizing that in 4 years, spending your entire GDP won't help it. Removing Socialism will save the dollar, not a WW3.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on September 14, 2014, 06:31:39 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 14, 2014, 06:20:05 pm
You know what will save the dollar? People in America Realizing that in 4 years, spending your entire GDP won't help it. Removing Socialism will save the dollar, not a WW3.

Socialism and capitalism on their own don't work. They're idealistic economic systems that haven't really been implemented anywhere. Using arguments for or against utopian dreams of narrow systems like that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying all pictures are black or white and photos without white are useless, as if the rest of the color spectrum doesn't exist. As if most pictures don't include multiple colors.

Do we want to start World War III because of "EVIL SOCIALISM"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on September 14, 2014, 06:38:14 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 14, 2014, 06:20:05 pm
You know what will save the dollar? People in America Realizing that in 4 years, spending your entire GDP won't help it. Removing Socialism will save the dollar, not a WW3.

Ah yes. Get rid of entitlements and social programs. That will stop America from sliding further into debt. Reducing military spending, which happens to dwarf those of the next several nations clearly will not help as much as getting rid of food stamps so those poor disenfranchised black people can eat.

Come to think of it, seeing as how the US defense industry has strategically placed itself across states and counties employing hundeds of thousands of people, and seeing as how the US is their biggest customer, I guess it can be seen as a socialist jobs program.

Maybe you're on to something there Anders. Actually you're not, you're just one of those big government is evil kind of misinformed voter that while at the same time yelling shit about how socialism is bad and evil without realizing how much socialism has contributed to the wealth of America as a country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on September 14, 2014, 06:54:56 pm
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/09/03/obama-transcript-nato-will-defend-estonia-latvia-lithuania/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/09/03/obama-transcript-nato-will-defend-estonia-latvia-lithuania/)

Look at this nonsense. How are we going to 'defend' these Baltic states? That's asking for a conflict most Americans would not want.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 14, 2014, 07:27:05 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 05:03:00 pm
And, regardless of the emotional investment you have in the situation Thomek, a coup is a coup. You can view it through rose tinted glasses if you like but that's what it is. If the Ukrainian parliament had impeached Yanukovych without the death threats from the armed protestors largely associated with the right sector camp then I guess Russia, and other people in the world could not call what happened a coup, and his overthrow would be considered legitimate by all parties involved in todays mess.

Hahahaha. Murmillus you have the face to talk about emotional investment?

Who the hell was going batshit mentalturd few pages back spamming caps lock, triple-quadposting like a mad kid?

 :lol: :lol:

Also, same thing can be said on Putin's use of the chocolate chip cookie card, annexation of crimea while using unmarked russian forces to harass Ukrainian bases, ports, taking polling stations, forging a poll then taking Crimea. Remember he even admitted he was lying about his involvement. Why is it so hard to believe that he is supporting the insurgents as well? HE is not to be trusted.

You are very naive for a conspiracytard, Christopher Greene would like you.

But you are still the retard parroting that the crimean annexation was 100% fair and democratical proccess right? And you talk about rose tinted glasses
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 07:47:21 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 14, 2014, 07:27:05 pm
Hahahaha. Murmillus you have the face to talk about emotional investment?

Who the hell was going batshit mentalturd few pages back spamming caps lock, triple-quadposting like a mad kid?

 :lol: :lol:

Also, same thing can be said on Putin's use of the chocolate chip cookie card, annexation of crimea while using unmarked russian forces to harass Ukrainian bases, ports, taking polling stations, forging a poll then taking Crimea. Remember he even admitted he was lying about his involvement. Why is it so hard to believe that he is supporting the insurgents as well? HE is not to be trusted.

You are very naive for a conspiracytard, Christopher Greene would like you.

But you are still the retard parroting that the crimean annexation was 100% fair and democratical proccess right? And you talk about rose tinted glasses

I have emotions, I'm human Christo. I reacted emotionally to posters here, not toward elements of the discussion which remain on topic within this thread. I recall Molly stating something about me being a waste of DNA or something similar to that, but it pressed my buttons thus the following caps spam and name calling ensued.

You need to understand the context of the manner of ones statements Christo, rather than making ignorant assumptions and strawman arguments to be able to put across a valid point.

Yes I believe Russia is supporting the separatists. No the situation in Crimea was not perfect and no 100% of the population was not behind the move nor the referendum. But considering the events that led up to it, and the events that have transpired and continue to transpire in East Ukraine, I have good reason to view it with rose tinted glasses. There is no civil war in Crimea.

100% of Ukraine is not pro-EU, 100% of Ukraine does not believe the coup government is legitimate, and yet they must now all be subject to this government? A government that now declares war on its own people, which makes the sniping and murders of the Maidan look like child play in comparison. How come your arguments are good enough when its concerning Russia or the pro-Russian separatists but not when it's concerning the Western backed Ukrainian government?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 14, 2014, 09:25:58 pm
Quote from: Swaggart on September 14, 2014, 06:38:14 pm
Ah yes. Get rid of entitlements and social programs. That will stop America from sliding further into debt. Reducing military spending, which happens to dwarf those of the next several nations clearly will not help as much as getting rid of food stamps so those poor disenfranchised black people can eat.

Come to think of it, seeing as how the US defense industry has strategically placed itself across states and counties employing hundeds of thousands of people, and seeing as how the US is their biggest customer, I guess it can be seen as a socialist jobs program.

Maybe you're on to something there Anders. Actually you're not, you're just one of those big government is evil kind of misinformed voter that while at the same time yelling shit about how socialism is bad and evil without realizing how much socialism has contributed to the wealth of America as a country.

Go look up Military Spending as Percent of GDP, and Welfare Spending as GDP.

Guess what:
Military: 3.9%
Welfare: 3%(expected to drop, was as high as 5% in 2010, more than military spending)

Also, try this:
Obama Deficits
FY 2014*: $649 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending

All sorts of stats are there, how much is true.

Oop this isn't that other thread, oh well.
That's fucking insanse. THat's why America sucks, cause we spend way to much on everything.

And all that money UKR wishes they could have
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on September 14, 2014, 09:55:30 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 14, 2014, 09:25:58 pm
Go look up Military Spending as Percent of GDP, and Welfare Spending as GDP.

Guess what:
Military: 3.9%
Welfare: 3%(expected to drop, was as high as 5% in 2010, more than military spending)

Also, try this:
Obama Deficits
FY 2014*: $649 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending

All sorts of stats are there, how much is true.

Oop this isn't that other thread, oh well.
That's fucking insanse. THat's why America sucks, cause we spend way to much on everything.

And all that money UKR wishes they could have

We do spend too much on everything. We also don't care as much about freedom as we say we do, since we're busy giving them up every year.

And then we try and pick a fight with the other big guy in the room.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on September 15, 2014, 12:01:22 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on September 14, 2014, 09:25:58 pm
Go look up Military Spending as Percent of GDP, and Welfare Spending as GDP.

Guess what:
Military: 3.9%
Welfare: 3%(expected to drop, was as high as 5% in 2010, more than military spending)

Also, try this:
Obama Deficits
FY 2014*: $649 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending

All sorts of stats are there, how much is true.

Oop this isn't that other thread, oh well.
That's fucking insanse. THat's why America sucks, cause we spend way to much on everything.

And all that money UKR wishes they could have

You seem to be forgetting that welfare helps everyone whereas military spending helps your defense companies. I don't think I need to explain ratios and proportions to you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 15, 2014, 02:42:56 am
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 05:03:00 pm
(click to show/hide)

Don't get me wrong Murmi, we can criticize corporate media and the US arms lobby all day long. Together, and we would probably agree on most of it. It's just that at a certain point, things slide over into major conspiracy theories. Might be true, some of them, but when you put a conspiracy theory on top of another one you are on thin ice. There's a whole business living off people who interested in it. And it is very entertaining. IMO it starts with 911 truthers and end at:


Just.. This isn't about that. This is about crazy and violent Putin reaction to a revolution based in the depths of the people, not a coup. This was not some general who came and took over the country. Now I agree it was not a super clean revolution, and the depths of ALL the people can be discussed. Still, don't forget that russian propaganda TV was painting Maidaners black to all of Ukraine for months before the actual fall of Yanukovich.

@Butan
The west is not Really an enemy of Russia. Just russians find it comfortable to think that way. Because if Russian people would find out what nice, peaceful, prosperous and free lives we live here in the west, they would want regime change themselves. This is why it's top priority for Putin to keep the west at an arms length.

(Having someone to blame, someone to look down at. I.ex RT, which is not the worst of russian media, runs only the most horrific stories from the west. "Balancing out" the horror stories from Russia.)

In reality there are zero reasons why Russians can't have nice lives too. They are educated, they have a rich land, they have infrastructure. The future would look promising if it were not for a totally corrupt society that is unable to better itself. (Free press and a good justice system is paramount. None of these things seems to be a priority for Putin and his thief-oligarchs.)

- Edit: bit more about conspiracies. MH17: It is most likely what it looks like. A plane falls down in the smack centre of rebel controlled territory. They brag about shooting down a plane. It is not some SU-25 that would have an extremely though time intercepting a plane on that altitude and speed, no TWO of them! shooting MH17 from TWO sides simultaneously! And that is Bullet holes! Some random OSCE guy said it looked like that, (but also said he doesnt know about such things)  (Like not every single AA rocket on the market is based on splinter charge..) BUT rebels didnt't have AA except Igla's/Manpads that can only shoot up to 3km! While 2 days before Ukraine thought RF had shot down a plane because it fell down from 5km..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 09:00:59 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 14, 2014, 05:32:39 pm
Yes ceasefire is still in effect, about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying, anyway 20 civilians are dead
About rebels "not using artilerry on airport before trying to storm it" there is no information, IF you ignore all sources but russian ones. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 14, 2014, 07:47:21 pm
<...blaberish...>
100% of Ukraine is not pro-EU, 100% of Ukraine does not believe the coup government is legitimate, and yet they must now all be subject to this government? <... blaberish...>
You DO understand, that democracy aint 100% agree with this shit or another dung? its a rule where majority elect representatives who then decide what suits their voters best (I feel like explaining this to a 5 year old... :? )

Given your pink-tinted-glasses - why are they applied to rebels and russia, who support A MINORITY in eastern Ukraine?

Oh, and bestest:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Quote from: Anuran on September 14, 2014, 06:16:47 pm
(click to show/hide)

From 2012. Besides other aspects this guy also talks about a world war, which for example can save the dollar.
The guy at the start of the video - can you please clarify from which CoD/BF version is it? And then why the fuck would an even remotely reliable or WILLING TO BE reliable source would use such material in the footage?  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 15, 2014, 09:53:41 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 09:00:59 am
About rebels "not using artilerry on airport before trying to storm it" there is no information, IF you ignore all sources but russian ones. :rolleyes:
Kuujis when you will stop being stupid? Where did you understand that I was talking about airport? When will you become smarter. I wrote about sittuation yersteday. Where I wrote about airport. You are so smart. :oops: Of course separatists had used artilerry before they started to storm. All russian TV said about it, your accusation based on your smartness? Yes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 10:00:36 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 15, 2014, 09:53:41 am
Kuujis when you will stop being stupid? Where did you understand that I was talking about airport? When will you become smarter. I wrote about sittuation yersteday. Where I wrote about airport. You are so smart. :oops: Of course separatists had used artilerry before they started to storm. All russian TV said about it, your accusation based on your smartness? Yes?
Wait, so... erm... "about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying" was... what kind of statement?

From what I read - there were reports for Grad launches FROM city itself, thus no wonder these were answered by Ukrainian side. Better question is - why hide behind the civilians in the first place, but it never gets raised OR answered. You want a good example, of how NOT to hide behind trully your OWN people - see how Mariupol defenses were shelled and not the city, which would have been a LOT easier to defend and hold. A representative comparison of the fighting sides? I would not say so 100%, but a DAMNING example nevertheless.


I may have missunderstood your counter-yourself statement there, can you please forgive me and not make me cry now?  :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 15, 2014, 10:17:03 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 10:00:36 am
Wait, so... erm... "about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying" was... what kind of statement?

From what I read - there were reports for Grad launches FROM city itself, thus no wonder these were answered by Ukrainian side. Better question is - why hide behind the civilians in the first place, but it never gets raised OR answered. You want a good example, of how NOT to hide behind trully your OWN people - see how Mariupol defenses were shelled and not the city, which would have been a LOT easier to defend and hold. A representative comparison of the fighting sides? I would not say so 100%, but a DAMNING example nevertheless.


I may have missunderstood your counter-yourself statement there, can you please forgive me and not make me cry now?  :oops:
OK, airport was in Lugansk, and this shelling as I wrote was in Donetsk, and there was some days difference between this actions, so think before writing, because there are already a lot of shittalks here.
About second, I think they will hide in towns, because if they will go on the open field they will be killed in some days. But they don't hide in the center where bombs were dropped. There were shelling in places where no separatists ever exist. In case that there is ceasefire, I think shelling 38 times is not something true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 10:28:43 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 15, 2014, 10:17:03 am
OK, airport was in Lugansk, and this shelling as I wrote was in Donetsk, and there was some days difference between this actions, so think before writing, because there are already a lot of shittalks here.
About second, I think they will hide in towns, because if they will go on the open field they will be killed in some days. But they don't hide in the center where bombs were dropped. There were shelling in places where no separatists ever exist. In case that there is ceasefire, I think shelling 38 times is not something true.
Shelling 38 times by 38 shells? :)
I would check your sources, if I were you. Lugansk Air Port (or what remains of it) was south of Lganks, thus not feasible to hold, thus abandoned and Ukrainian forces retreated from there a week or even 2 weeks ago. NOW shit is going down in Donetsk Airport, which is NORTH, of Donetsk, thus possible for Ukraine to supply and hold (at least theoretically).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-86eNbeqBJE for example... If that is not grads firing from (or from VICINITY OF) living areas - I'm a moron :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 15, 2014, 10:39:19 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 10:28:43 am
Shelling 38 times by 38 shells? :)
I would check your sources, if I were you. Lugansk Air Port (or what remains of it) was south of Lganks, thus not feasible to hold, thus abandoned and Ukrainian forces retreated from there a week or even 2 weeks ago. NOW shit is going down in Donetsk Airport, which is NORTH, of Donetsk, thus possible for Ukraine to supply and hold (at least theoretically).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-86eNbeqBJE for example... If that is not grads firing from (or from VICINITY OF) living areas - I'm a moron :)
yeeeaaaah GRAD stands on the roof of a neighboring house  :lol:
 I heard were still cases where they stood on the dome of the Church  :P
(click to show/hide)
sry its not a wikilink ((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 15, 2014, 11:17:29 am
I've seen several video reports clearly showing separatists troops camping in normal living flats through out the city.
Normal flats that were either abandoned by the former owners or even flats where to people living have been kicked out told to live in another flat downstairs and stuff.

So, they do hide behind the civilian population.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 11:57:50 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 15, 2014, 10:39:19 am
yeeeaaaah GRAD stands on the roof of a neighboring house  :lol:
 I heard were still cases where they stood on the dome of the Church  :P
(click to show/hide)
sry its not a wikilink ((

I fail to realize, why do you involve calculating distance to horizon. And where was it implied, that they are on the roofs? Those rockets are lounched from launchers, which are obscured by a similar height 5 or 9 levels condo... Or do you think they are fired from as far as the horizon is and thats why the smoke illuminated by the launchers is so clearly visible and no additional obstructions are detected?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 15, 2014, 12:25:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 11:57:50 am
I fail to realize, why do you involve calculating distance to horizon. And where was it implied, that they are on the roofs? Those rockets are lounched from launchers, which are obscured by a similar height 5 or 9 levels condo... Or do you think they are fired from as far as the horizon is and thats why the smoke illuminated by the launchers is so clearly visible and no additional obstructions are detected?
perhaps I am mistaken.
http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=30d6482344f4e14861d752a0393c87c7/30d6482344f4e14861d752a0393c87c7.bmp
 I see it something like this, if gradn not stands on the roof of a building or a hill it far enough (because building closes view), I think 3-4 kilometers, if not laziness then Counting ^^ I did not calculated  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 15, 2014, 12:49:10 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 09:00:59 am
About rebels "not using artilerry on airport before trying to storm it" there is no information, IF you ignore all sources but russian ones. :rolleyes:You DO understand, that democracy aint 100% agree with this shit or another dung? its a rule where majority elect representatives who then decide what suits their voters best (I feel like explaining this to a 5 year old... :? )

Given your pink-tinted-glasses - why are they applied to rebels and russia, who support A MINORITY in eastern Ukraine?

Oh, and bestest:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

The guy at the start of the video - can you please clarify from which CoD/BF version is it? And then why the fuck would an even remotely reliable or WILLING TO BE reliable source would use such material in the footage?  :wink:

I wasn't talking about an election Kuujis, read it again.. (And you have the gall to state you're explaining this to a 5 year old, when it's you who's completely missed the point, a what a fuckwit).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 01:25:29 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 15, 2014, 12:49:10 pm
I wasn't talking about an election Kuujis, read it again.. (And you have the gall to state you're explaining this to a 5 year old, when it's you who's completely missed the point, a what a fuckwit).
I did not talk about elections either, what a coincidence! Have a cookie for understanding text! Like a true 5 year old  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on September 15, 2014, 02:08:17 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 01:25:29 pm
I did not talk about elections either, what a coincidence! Have a cookie for understanding text! Like a true 5 year old  8-)

But you mentioned VOTING which is a function within an electoral process and which is a key process within a democracy. Don't play smart, when you're really stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 02:39:43 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 15, 2014, 02:08:17 pm
But you mentioned VOTING which is a function within an electoral process and which is a key process within a democracy. Don't play smart, when you're really stupid.
But... but... your momma said I'm smart! And now I'm sucking lemons, crying and have to give you another cookie...

I rest my case with you  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on September 15, 2014, 02:56:08 pm
@Leshma,
The link works again, was a momentary hiccup.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 15, 2014, 03:21:12 pm
Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on September 15, 2014, 02:08:17 pm
But you mentioned VOTING which is a function within an electoral process and which is a key process within a democracy. Don't play smart, when you're really stupid.
Says the shitlord living in the middle of Europe arguing about Eastern-Europe and Ukraine WITH actual fucking Ukrainians and Eastern-Europeans. Man seriuslly. Get the fuck off your high horse and be a bit reasonable. Theres no freaking truth and eyeopening in anything you or any of us read. The purpose of sources that produce pro-government and independent news are basically equally lame. The independent asswipes who claim to say the actual eyeopening truth with solid evidence is basically just the same shit news they shun. They add more dirt to their news when its anti-gov, so it would sound like they are really on to something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 15, 2014, 05:05:29 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2014, 11:17:29 am
I've seen several video reports clearly showing separatists troops camping in normal living flats through out the city.
Normal flats that were either abandoned by the former owners or even flats where to people living have been kicked out told to live in another flat downstairs and stuff.

So, they do hide behind the civilian population.


Maybe you should come there and help them build a new city where they can camp their tens of thousands people?

Really guys, you think the rebels are going where when they are not fighting? THEY LIVE IN WAR ZONE :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 07:42:48 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 15, 2014, 05:05:29 pm

Maybe you should come there and help them build a new city where they can camp their tens of thousands people?

Really guys, you think the rebels are going where when they are not fighting? THEY LIVE IN WAR ZONE :rolleyes:
Butan, if in ALL of the flatlands, that rebels occupy, they are unable to find places to stay in WITHOUT resorting to endangering civilians - those civilians are the least of their worry, which should be vice versa, as (again, example, but a loud one) demonstrated in defence of Mariupol by Ukraine.

To our local Ukrainians: how popular is this oppinion expressed in OBVIOUSLY """objective"""*** webpage: http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/15/the-end-of-the-beginning/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 15, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 07:42:48 pm
Butan, if in ALL of the flatlands, that rebels occupy, they are unable to find places to stay in WITHOUT resorting to endangering civilians - those civilians are the least of their worry, which should be vice versa, as (again, example, but a loud one) demonstrated in defence of Mariupol by Ukraine.



Define "flatlands that doesnt endanger civilian" please.

A flatland that isnt in a 5-10km radius of any civilians? Because artillery is not as accurate as you may believe, or do you think the Ukrainian army is delibaretely chirurgically bombarding places where no rebels lives?

A war with one or more side fighting in a region that includes civilians is by definition "endangering them".
The only way to stop that would be to politely ask everyone to only fight in no man's land and only out of sleeping/eating/transporting arranged cycles.


For down to the ground reasons its not happening... rebels's faults ? Dont know if stupid or just with 0 military knowledge whatsoever.
But dont you worry, more than half of the civilians flew from war zone so its quickly becoming a very good place to shell each other to death and call each other responsible for their own way of doing war  :wink:


Quote from: Kuujis on September 15, 2014, 07:42:48 pm
To our local Ukrainians: how popular is this oppinion expressed in OBVIOUSLY """objective"""*** webpage: http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/15/the-end-of-the-beginning/


Best quote ever:

Quote
Poroshenko isn’t the man to lead Ukraine in this war.

That blogger feels the all-out-war president is not the man to lead Ukraine? I guess he's even more pro-war than the pro-warest, or maybe a sore loser, or both.


Read his "manifest destiny" if you want to read the most brutally capitalistic warmongering attitude you could ever summon relative to conducting economy/diplomacy/military as an Ukrainian:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 15, 2014, 09:16:29 pm
Quote
To our local Ukrainians: how popular is this oppinion expressed in OBVIOUSLY """objective"""*** webpage: http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/15/the-end-of-the-beginning/

Not sure which opinion exactly do you mean, there are plenty of statements in that article. Still, too many of them are absurd to take it and its author seriously.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 15, 2014, 09:34:10 pm
That's interesting. http://indian.ruvr.ru/2014_04_21/Russian-Su-24-scores-off-against-the-American-USS-Donald-Cook-5786/

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 15, 2014, 09:35:24 pm
Tovi, have you ever read the book titled Lubyanka Criminal Group?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 15, 2014, 10:00:40 pm
No, but mafia and capitalism are strongly linked anyway. So, Russia is capitalist now....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 16, 2014, 04:04:14 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 15, 2014, 09:34:10 pm
That's interesting. http://indian.ruvr.ru/2014_04_21/Russian-Su-24-scores-off-against-the-American-USS-Donald-Cook-5786/

Extremely unlikely Tovi, and likely "planted news" aka psyops, since it's probably a military source. What is possible though is that there was a flyover, which is a provocation that happens from time to time from all sides. It's kind of the military language of diplomacy..

Jamming of radar systems is not something states do "to show off". Because that also means US now have info about how the FR jammer works, and can make appropriate changes in their own systems to stop that from happening. Jamming and sigint are extremely sensitive state secrets, and they are only turned on in case of war. Radars also probably have "war" modes, that are different from what they use in peacetime.

This would be as if the brits told the germans that they had broken the enigma code.. If you catch my drift.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 16, 2014, 08:35:46 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 15, 2014, 09:34:10 pm
That's interesting. http://indian.ruvr.ru/2014_04_21/Russian-Su-24-scores-off-against-the-American-USS-Donald-Cook-5786/
This cool  "science fiction" story emerged from the comments to one of the news on this topic. News itself was about 100 letters, no details about the jamming etc. One user commented on her like this "I think everything was so .... The plane did not have weapons but has super secret sample Jamming of radar systems under the wing. Everything went normally, American radars calculated the speed of the approaching target. And suddenly all the screens went blank. "Aegis" was not working any more, and the rockets could not get target information. Meanwhile, Su-24 flew over the deck of the destroyer, did battle turn and simulated missile attack on the target. Then it turned and repeated the maneuver. And did so 12 times.
 Later this fantasy story from Sofa General  :P mentioned in other news already as expert / source opinion but already without "I think everything was so", and apparently now two months have already translated to English)
 Boldet part is a part of dat comment word-for-word.



   http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/17/us-russia-airforce-idUSL1745006520070817
"If Russia feels as though they want to take some of these old aircraft out of mothballs and get them flying again, that's their decision," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters.
a half-year later
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/pazifik-russische-bomber-ueberfliegen-us-flugzeugtraeger-a-534621.html

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 16, 2014, 08:50:57 am
Quote from: Butan on September 15, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
Define "flatlands that doesnt endanger civilian" please.

A flatland that isnt in a 5-10km radius of any civilians? Because artillery is not as accurate as you may believe, or do you think the Ukrainian army is delibaretely chirurgically bombarding places where no rebels lives?

A war with one or more side fighting in a region that includes civilians is by definition "endangering them".
The only way to stop that would be to politely ask everyone to only fight in no man's land and only out of sleeping/eating/transporting arranged cycles.
Again - I'm not sure how, but when russians started bombarding Mariupol - there was NO  evidence of shells/rockets falling IN the city, even if there IS general agreement, that Ukrainian possitions AROUND the city WERE attacked. How is that possible? You tell me. And then tell me, why it is not possible for rebels to arrange, IF they are trying to "save their civilians". And yea yea, this is only an example, and shelling of civilians happened from both sides, etc., and since this is war + shit happens - I don't argue with this. What I want to state and identify is that GIVEN CHOICE of defence locations - Rebels choose populated cities, Ukrainian forces choose outskirts of cities with few if any civilians. Take what you will out of this.

Quote from: Butan on September 15, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
Best quote ever:

That blogger feels the all-out-war president is not the man to lead Ukraine? I guess he's even more pro-war than the pro-warest, or maybe a sore loser, or both.
I sincerely doubt you would consider Poroshenko an all-out-war president, if you were an Ukrainian... As the guy in the article writing about Serbia-Croatia war said - the guy, who said "fuck all, fuck not having weapons, fuck casualties and price we will have to pay, LETS FUCK EVERYONE WHO ATTACKS US TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILIETIES AND THEN SOME" - thats the guy, who is all out war. Giving all the attempts at diplomacy, lack of full mobilization, lack of declaration of war - he is NOT an all-out-war president.

Quote from: Butan on September 15, 2014, 07:58:47 pm
Read his "manifest destiny" if you want to read the most brutally capitalistic warmongering attitude you could ever summon relative to conducting economy/diplomacy/military as an Ukrainian:
(click to show/hide)
That was the most interesting part in the article actually. Some of these are beyong brutual and openly target civilian populace, but I guess that if they don't want your rule - its up to you to give them no bonuses or support. That's why I was asking what local Ukrainians think about these suggestions. I remember asking, whether it would be acceptable to sacrifice Crimea for a chance to "go west", now the price is higher, but the question is still the same I guess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 16, 2014, 03:29:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 16, 2014, 08:50:57 am
Again - I'm not sure how, but when russians started bombarding Mariupol - there was NO  evidence of shells/rockets falling IN the city, even if there IS general agreement, that Ukrainian possitions AROUND the city WERE attacked. How is that possible? You tell me. And then tell me, why it is not possible for rebels to arrange, IF they are trying to "save their civilians". And yea yea, this is only an example, and shelling of civilians happened from both sides, etc., and since this is war + shit happens - I don't argue with this. What I want to state and identify is that GIVEN CHOICE of defence locations - Rebels choose populated cities, Ukrainian forces choose outskirts of cities with few if any civilians. Take what you will out of this.

I would like to know what you know about Mariupol situation. I think you detailed a bit few pages back but I dont find it again.
How is it exactly different than other cities?
Are they only defending outskirts evacuated parts of the place?

I assume the city is not in a state of similar total besieging as Donetsk or Luhansk, is it even a good similar example?



Quote from: Kuujis on September 16, 2014, 08:50:57 am
I sincerely doubt you would consider Poroshenko an all-out-war president, if you were an Ukrainian... As the guy in the article writing about Serbia-Croatia war said - the guy, who said "fuck all, fuck not having weapons, fuck casualties and price we will have to pay, LETS FUCK EVERYONE WHO ATTACKS US TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILIETIES AND THEN SOME" - thats the guy, who is all out war. Giving all the attempts at diplomacy, lack of full mobilization, lack of declaration of war - he is NOT an all-out-war president.

I guess there is more extremist view on how war should be conducted IN THE POPULATION, but in the political sphere of actual professional serious politician who have the trust of the people? I classify Poroshenko as quite war enthusiast, with maybe svoboda and few others being as hot-headed. The only people who could be more direct would be having generals as head of state.
Lack of full mobilization? You should look at how many people enlisted in national guard/army these last months!
Attempts at diplomacy? Until very very recently, it was taboo to even speak to russia diplomats except through NATO/UN announcements!
Lack of declaration of war? If it was in their interest they would have done so already, but they dont want to be seen as agressor; even then they are in a state of war already.


I'm not saying its bad, just stating fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on September 17, 2014, 12:13:21 am
http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=3668ff6a4201
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 08:51:23 am
Quote from: Oberyn on September 17, 2014, 12:13:21 am
http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=3668ff6a4201
wrong thread, Ukraine Is not a Russia yet  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 10:09:37 am
Rrussia, your masters tell you NOT TO PANIC. So DONT PANIC. There is NOTHING TO PANIC ABOUT.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ruble-plunges-lows-authorities-tell-112135228.html

*edit: fixed capitalizations... how silly of me to make such a mishtake  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 10:41:00 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 10:09:37 am
Rrussia, your masters tell you NOT TO PANIC. So DONT PANIC. There is NOTHING TO PANIC ABOUT.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ruble-plunges-lows-authorities-tell-112135228.html
*edit: fixed capitalizations... how silly of me to make such a mishtake  :rolleyes:
For today the exchange rate is a political rather than economic indicator. Foreign companies forced to withdraw capital from Russia, now it hurts Russia, but deprives foreign companies profits in the future.

Russia is building a new fleet and restores old military base for the group at the North Pole for the protection of offshore oil, seals and whales. This supposedly big profits in the next 50 years, but not for the american oil companies now ^^. Check who support sanctions more actively , the Baltic countries cos buthurts much, USA in the name of democracy , and Canada because of the competition on the North Pole
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 11:12:11 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 10:41:00 am
For today the exchange rate is a political rather than economic indicator. Foreign companies forced to withdraw capital from Russia, now it hurts Russia, but deprives foreign companies profits in the future.

Russia is building a new fleet and restores old military base for the group at the North Pole for the protection of offshore oil, seals and whales. This supposedly big profits in the next 50 years, but not for the american oil companies now ^^. Check who support sanctions more actively , the Baltic countries cos buthurts much, USA in the name of democracy , and Canada because of the competition on the North Pole
True that, BUT however butthurt - russia needs western tech and know-how to extract that profit, so its a double edged sword :P Overall - russia needs to invest A LOT in new tech to extract sufficient amount of gases/oil, otherwise - the cornerstone of russian "extract-sell-eat-repeat" economy might begin to struggle. Can you imagine the dismay of your new far-eastern Chinese overlords? :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 11:22:14 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 11:12:11 am
True that, BUT however butthurt - russia needs western tech
u always can steal it  :twisted:

In place of Putin, I would bet on the cooperation with China in the grab development of the moon program and its minerals beauty  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 17, 2014, 11:30:05 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 10:09:37 am
Rrussia, your masters tell you NOT TO PANIC. So DONT PANIC. There is NOTHING TO PANIC ABOUT.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ruble-plunges-lows-authorities-tell-112135228.html

*edit: fixed capitalizations... how silly of me to make such a mishtake  :rolleyes:
Lol it's better for Russia, if you don't know Russia will control inflation inside the country from 2015 so changes of the ruble won't be so necessary. Only for export we will get more money from export.

Quote from: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 11:22:14 am
u always can steal it  :twisted:

In place of Putin, I would bet on the cooperation with China in the grab development of the moon program and its minerals beauty  :P
I think China has already stolen everything :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 11:30:21 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 11:22:14 am
u always can steal it  :twisted:

In place of Putin, I would bet on the cooperation with China in the grab development of the moon program and its minerals beauty  :P
That is - until the Kazachstan chooses new orange-revolutionary-nato-planted-leaderdemocratic president and blows upsells to the only bidder (i.e. NATO) your space center, by which time China has already finished stealing everything there was worth stealing from russian tech plants via white trucks suited men with briefcases.

Future is bright! :shock:

Quote from: DonNicko on September 17, 2014, 11:30:05 am
Lol it's better for Russia, if you don't know Russia will control inflation inside the country from 2015 so changes of the ruble won't be so necessary. Only for export we will get more money from export.
I think China has already stolen everything :mrgreen:
On the other hand - you can use the extra cash to fund the madman in rule of chechnya, or ship/desalinate water for washing your soldiers pants in crimea, or even maybe start rebuilding eastern Ukraine, which might end up being "your", as putler wished. I think one of these already "ate" the pension raise, which was planned, no?

Also - China didn't steal Siberia yet. YET :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 11:40:36 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 11:30:21 am
That is - until the Kazachstan chooses new orange-revolutionary-nato-planted-leaderdemocratic president and blows upsells to the only bidder (i.e. NATO) your space center, by which time China has already finished stealing everything there was worth stealing from russian tech plants via white trucks suited men with briefcases.
Future is bright! :shock:
On the other hand - you can use the extra cash to fund the madman in rule of chechnya, or ship/desalinate water for washing your soldiers pants in crimea, or even maybe start rebuilding eastern Ukraine, which might end up being "your", as putler wished. I think one of these already "ate" the pension raise, which was planned, no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome
 http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-and-china-pledge-to-use-less-dollars-in-trade-as-economic-ties-deepen/506721.html
aslo they plan build heavy cargo port in the Far East,and improve the rail network on the eastern borders, as they are now overloaded freight trains.
oh and thousands of refugees from the Ukraine already are brought there for work ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 11:47:28 am
Quote from: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 11:40:36 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome
 http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-and-china-pledge-to-use-less-dollars-in-trade-as-economic-ties-deepen/506721.html
aslo they plan build heavy cargo port in the Far East,and improve the rail network on the eastern borders, as they are now overloaded freight trains.
That cosmodrome... is it going to be as cool as your Olympic games budget wise?  :mrgreen:

Good building process is a steady and calculated building process... But I wish you and your richproud nation luck.
In November 2012, press reports indicated that the Russian government is having difficulty in finding a good use for the new spaceport, and that other government ministries have been avoiding the project while "calling the project a 'dolgostroi,' which is Russian for an endless construction boondoggle."[25]
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 11:49:54 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 11:47:28 am
In November 2012, press reports indicated that the Russian government is having difficulty in finding a good use for the new spaceport, and that other government ministries have been avoiding the project while "calling the project a 'dolgostroi,' which is Russian for an endless construction boondoggle."[25]
"press reports according to the source", I know  :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

iam sure u can find a lot shit like dat in any country, simply needed to have sufficient butthurt to motivate yourself :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 12:09:02 pm
Quote from: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 11:49:54 am
"press reports according to the source", I know  :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

iam sure u can find a lot shit like dat in any country, simply needed to have sufficient butthurt to motivate yourself :P
whataboutism at its best ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 17, 2014, 12:10:12 pm
Someone is paying 30 million for finding out who shot MH17:

 http://www.wifka.de/who-shot-down-mh17-30-million-dollars-reward-for-information.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 12:13:25 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on September 17, 2014, 12:10:12 pm
Someone is paying 30 million for finding out who shot MH17:

 http://www.wifka.de/who-shot-down-mh17-30-million-dollars-reward-for-information.html
Because they want the remaining 3 buks and the crew for some special middle-east mission!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 17, 2014, 12:50:22 pm
it was me! can add "on the direct orders of the Big Pu" for an additional 30 million and asylum in Australia
were is my moneyz!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 17, 2014, 04:08:38 pm
Verkhovna Rada is ripe for political changes   :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 05:58:20 pm
I wanted to know, how many new countries does putler envision in easter Ukraine? Because it seems we have moaaarr....

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/123687

We also need "pskoviaVDV", so that it could be a national place for the Pskovian VDV division... AT THE VERY LEAST  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 17, 2014, 06:49:11 pm
German mass-medium ZDF showing the naz.is fighting in eastern Ukraine:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

If you think these pictures are edited or in a wrong context, watch this (http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek#/beitrag/video/2234384/ZDF-heute-Sendung-vom-08-September-2014). 2:14 to 2:31.
Speaker: "Fragile cease-fire agreement since there is a permanent struggle for power on both sides – between hardliners and those who are willing to compromise. Volunteer battalions from almost every political direction support the government side and in Ukraine there is an election campaign."

From Sept. 8
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 17, 2014, 06:56:22 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 17, 2014, 06:49:11 pm
German mass-medium ZDF showing the naz.is fighting in eastern Ukraine:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

If you think these pictures are edited or in a wrong context, watch this (http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek#/beitrag/video/2234384/ZDF-heute-Sendung-vom-08-September-2014). 2:14 to 2:31.
Speaker: "Fragile cease-fire agreement since there is a permanent struggle for power on both sides – between hardliners and those who are willing to compromise. Volunteer battalions from almost every political direction support the government side and in Ukraine there is an election campaign."

From Sept. 8


Thats the Azov bataillon, it is famous for having mostly far-right nazis fighters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 17, 2014, 07:33:22 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 17, 2014, 06:49:11 pm
German mass-medium ZDF showing the naz.is fighting in eastern Ukraine:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

If you think these pictures are edited or in a wrong context, watch this (http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek#/beitrag/video/2234384/ZDF-heute-Sendung-vom-08-September-2014). 2:14 to 2:31.
Speaker: "Fragile cease-fire agreement since there is a permanent struggle for power on both sides – between hardliners and those who are willing to compromise. Volunteer battalions from almost every political direction support the government side and in Ukraine there is an election campaign."

From Sept. 8
This is not news. Why does that matter? What is the importance of these photos?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 17, 2014, 07:37:28 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 17, 2014, 07:33:22 pm
This is not news. Why does that matter? What is the importance of these photos?

It is important because Ukrainenazijuntafascismholocaustmurderers-agenda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 08:55:32 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 17, 2014, 07:37:28 pm
It is important because Ukrainenazijuntafascismholocaustmurderers-agenda.
Also - because THEY need to show, that it is THEM that are naztees, not the country which is following HaiTler tracks. SEE? NOW YOU SEE?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 17, 2014, 09:09:52 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 08:55:32 pm
Also - because THEY need to show, that it is THEM that are naztees, not the country which is following HaiTler tracks. SEE? NOW YOU SEE?

Didnt know Hitler reigned for 20 years and made 1 proxy war before conquering half of Europe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 17, 2014, 09:14:14 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 17, 2014, 09:09:52 pm
Didnt know Hitler reigned for 20 years and made 1 proxy war before conquering half of Europe.
oh... I think the REASONS and outcome matter more, than the exact details about what was done. Details have changed, reasons and the outcome - not so much.

Besides - maybe I was NOT talking about putler :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 17, 2014, 09:29:48 pm
Nor did I  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 17, 2014, 10:57:46 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 17, 2014, 07:33:22 pm
This is not news. Why does that matter? What is the importance of these photos?

Because in Russia you need to present your United Russia member card when you join the army. That way no nazi soldier in Russia xnxnxn
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 18, 2014, 05:43:58 am
New military situation at 14th september :

(click to show/hide)
Big fights at Donetsk airport and around Mariupol.

French electronic equipment seized on a T72M...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 18, 2014, 06:07:49 am
Quote from: Kafein on September 17, 2014, 10:57:46 pm
Because in Russia you need to present your United Russia member card when you join the army. That way no nazi soldier in Russia xnxnxn
Almost true, because if people in army will know that you are naz i you will be fucked up so hard :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 18, 2014, 07:29:09 am
Quote from: Anuran on September 17, 2014, 06:49:11 pm
German mass-medium ZDF showing the naz.is fighting in eastern Ukraine:

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)


This is related to anything how exactly? Every countries military has atleast 10 na zis. Still doesnt make an entire army or government na zi. We have been through this by now.

Somehow I think its kinda used ironically. Its kinda like my buddy went to his military service in my country and among many reasonable russian lads there were couple of russian retards aswell. These guys were class-A dumbshits. They called everything they didnt like an act of fas cism and whenever someone approached them with claims that they were acting like shitlords they called that person a na zi or figured they were being oppressed cause they are russians in a non-russian country. But not even once did it cross their minds that they were to blame, even when other russians told them that they are retards. So the other guys often said hiel youknowwho and drawed swas tikas just to fuck with them and piss em off.

Russias propagandawar of calling everything fas cist inevitably has a very comical tune to it. I can imagine russian farmers etc believing this crap, but bloody educated(I assume) people in the West? Da fuck guys?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 18, 2014, 12:14:26 pm
Quote from: Tibe on September 18, 2014, 07:29:09 am

This is related to anything how exactly? Every countries military has atleast 10 na zis. Still doesnt make an entire army or government na zi. We have been through this by now.

Somehow I think its kinda used ironically. Its kinda like my buddy went to his military service in my country and among many reasonable russian lads there were couple of russian retards aswell. These guys were class-A dumbshits. They called everything they didnt like an act of fas cism and whenever someone approached them with claims that they were acting like shitlords they called that person a na zi or figured they were being oppressed cause they are russians in a non-russian country. But not even once did it cross their minds that they were to blame, even when other russians told them that they are retards. So the other guys often said hiel youknowwho and drawed swas tikas just to fuck with them and piss em off.

Russias propagandawar of calling everything fas cist inevitably has a very comical tune to it. I can imagine russian farmers etc believing this crap, but bloody educated(I assume) people in the West? Da fuck guys?

You're being a shitlord right now  :lol: crossed the line between "not everyone is nazi" and "only some isolated ones are and then its probably just to piss guys off"...


There is a real cultural/historical problem with fascism in Ukraine and your statement is not taking into account anything that is known to Ukrainians. We have been through the "everyone is nazi" thats right, but I dont accept your attempt at completely underplaying the problem either.

When military groups are formed/paid/supplied and their hierarchy knows they are uber violent POS fanatics, its officially a problem, not just a few guys who went through the recruitment process in the army despite being assholes.
Ukraine government is just being deadly pragmatic, as with Maidan, and use everyone that is wishing to fight for them whatever their credo. Now I can respect pragmatism, but they are basically creating opportunities for them to gain prestige and power in the new government, and in the meantime there is daily accusations rape/murders on them. It greatly diminishes their supposed "moral superiority", if there ever was one. There is also a different kind of facists on the pro-rus side, and there is also accusations of rape/murders on the rebels, but afaik there isnt a whole pro-rus bataillon of hundreds of fighters that are specialized in that kind of shit, Ukraine unfortunately yes, and they are always sent in the hottest theatre of operation where they can roam free and have fun.

They give the stick to Russia to hit them with their propaganda as long as they furnish and accept those guys in their army.
Meanwhile in Ukraine, radical party and right sector gain proeminence thanks to the above.
Overall sticky situation, I hope Poroshenko will use the cleaning up of the Verkhovna Rada as an opportunity to seal off any possibilities that political extremists gain seats in any branches of the country, if its not already too late.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 18, 2014, 02:09:09 pm
Le Bu - I found a nice summary, which I'm too lazy to read for you.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/09/17/the-media-has-swallowed-five-russian-myths-that-have-helped-putin-win-in-ukraine/

Oh, and another nice account about how russia treats its patriots http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29249643.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 18, 2014, 02:12:42 pm
I agree with most of all points in this 5 parts article.
Far right Ukrainian militias aint a part of the 5 myths though, because its true  :P



Fighting the Russian propaganda would be easier if there was not a few reality backing it, helping the assimilation of the bigger lies which made the small truths as their foundations.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 18, 2014, 02:22:47 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 18, 2014, 02:12:42 pm
I agree with most of all points in this 5 parts article.
Far right Ukrainian militias aint a part of the 5 myths though, because its true  :P



Fighting the Russian propaganda would be easier if there was not a few reality backing it, helping the assimilation of the bigger lies which made the small truths as their foundations.


(click to show/hide)

The best lies are created, when there is a pinch of truth in them. And there is this pinch, I do not doubt it. And I also do not doubt it is exaggerated by russian media too.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 18, 2014, 02:28:26 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 18, 2014, 03:33:01 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 18, 2014, 12:14:26 pm
(click to show/hide)

Im pretty sure im not underplaying the problem here. Officially atleast, theres little visible evidence that Ukr has a serius na zi issue, as you claim atleast. Any Ukrainians here said that there is? Currently its just your word. Its not like they are ever going to gain any real power anyway, even if they do gain few more seats. The problem aint na zis. Its radicals in general. And Ukraine is accepting them cause they are having shitton of casualties and they feel that they are going to be stripped out of their independence. Theres hardly any actual radicals in the government, but theres an asston of them in their army. That cant be denied yes. But Russia has far more insane radicals in its government than most EU countries combined, not to mention the army is overbundling with these insane people. So its more of a case or radicals vs radicals. Rather than na zis vs russian nationalists. More on the line of Ukr nationalists vs Rus nationalists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 18, 2014, 04:45:58 pm
Fight evil with evil, aye?  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 18, 2014, 05:09:16 pm
Well it looks like it to me. Ukr media, people and army dont seem rather sane to me, but rather similar to the russians/pro-russians they fight against. Who can really blame them thou, this is a major crysis to them. Pretty sure majority of countries and their citizens would lose their shit aswell if 20% of it was rebeling and the rebels were equally aswell equiped as the nations army and backed by a superpower, who really has no shame and no limits when providing militaryequipment and spreading propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 18, 2014, 06:27:56 pm
I saw this picture on the news
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 and immediately remembered the that fool
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 18, 2014, 09:03:41 pm

A part of the deal to join EU was to accept Monsanto's GMO. That's a reason (not the only one) why Yakunovich rejected the proposition.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 19, 2014, 03:49:37 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 18, 2014, 09:03:41 pm
A part of the deal to join EU was to accept Monsanto's GMO. That's a reason (not the only one) why Yakunovich rejected the proposition.
Do at leastyour friends take you seriously?

Latest and greatest - http://ast.mk.ru/articles/2014/09/19/informaciya-ob-unichtozhenii-materialov-semochnoy-gruppy-vvs-ne-podtverdilas.html :) Drunk BBC journalists FTW!

Oh, and "rehabilitating" and "tolerating" tataras... the russian way :) http://www.rferl.org/content/crimean-tatar-mejlis-russia-impounded/26592606.html "In putlers russia - Tatars tolerate everyone else!".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 19, 2014, 04:54:31 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 18, 2014, 09:03:41 pm
...
A part of the deal to join EU was to accept Monsanto's GMO. That's a reason (not the only one) why Yakunovich rejected the proposition.

well, i don´t get the gmo thing.
i know that monsanto and co try to create a state of dependence and the farmers may accept this in hope of higher crops but in the end you can not force them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 19, 2014, 05:56:29 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 19, 2014, 04:54:31 pm
well, i don´t get the gmo thing.
i know that monsanto and co try to create a state of dependence and the farmers may accept this in hope of higher crops but in the end you can not force them.
In addition to that - there are US precedents about what is "protected" seeds and what is not (e.g. crops in fields nearby, which were pollinated accidentally are still (c) by monsanto), which would be considered BS in EU courts IMO, thus rendering whole conspiracy a little more full of shit.

Also - did any russian major news channels reported this "cut by director putler" version of russian "journalist of the year" speech, which also includes some unexpected remarks regarding Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on September 19, 2014, 07:04:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 19, 2014, 05:56:29 pm
(click to show/hide)
Sometimes it seems to me that you are ready to expose your ass and lick the ass of anyone who would say that the realties against Russia and Putin  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on September 19, 2014, 07:28:08 pm
Naw, that's Tovi and anti-US/EU stuff. He's not even a retard, he just got an agenda and is desperate to use anything to support it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 20, 2014, 01:24:51 pm
Care to translate?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 21, 2014, 12:26:27 am
Quote from: Butan on September 20, 2014, 01:24:51 pm
Care to translate?
Roughly translated by Google and edited by me to make it understandable. I actually don't know either this guy or the magazine.

Firstly, I want to thank the former editor in chief of "Lenta.ru" Timchenko and eternal chief editor of "Echo of Moscow" Alexei Venediktov for giving me the opportunity in our not freedom times to objectively describe events in Ukraine.
Secondly, I regard this award not as personal, but as a collective to all my colleagues who were and still are in Donbass, who risk their lives there.
And first of all Andrey Stenin who deserves this award much more than I do, not only because he's left there forever in his kevlar vest and I'm standing here in the silly tuxedo.
Thirdly, I do find it strange to stand here, because all the others receive an award for something good: I did not open the restaurant, did not star in a movie, I am not a trendsetter, I didn't make a sensational investigation, I'm just describing what is happening in Ukraine .
And it would be better if nothing happened there.
It would be better if people didn't die on the Maidan, Russia didn't annex the Crimea, you would have continued to have French oysters, and the Donbass hasn't gone to war and civilians didn't die.
I hope that Vladimir Putin will not send any more Russian soldiers and weapons to the Donbass, the Ukrainian army will not bomb cities, and Russian TV channels will not incite hatred and lie on TV and in the following year the award will get a wonderful film critic Dolin or my good friend and a great reporter Egor Mostovshikov.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 21, 2014, 12:52:37 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on September 21, 2014, 12:26:27 am
Firstly, I want to thank the former editor in chief of "Lenta.ru" Timchenko and eternal chief editor of "Echo of Moscow" Alexei Venediktov for giving me the opportunity in our not freedom times to objectively describe events in Ukraine.
Secondly, I regard this award not as personal, but as a collective to all my colleagues who were and still are in Donbass, who risk their lives there.
And first of all Andrey Stenin who deserves this award much more than I do, not only because he's left there forever in his kevlar vest and I'm standing here in the silly tuxedo.
Thirdly, I do find it strange to stand here, because all the others receive an award for something good: I did not open the restaurant, did not star in a movie, I am not a trendsetter, I didn't make a sensational investigation, I'm just describing what is happening in Ukraine .
And it would be better if nothing happened there.
It would be better if people didn't die on the Maidan, Russia didn't annex the Crimea, you would have continued to have French oysters, and the Donbass hasn't gone to war and civilians didn't die.
I hope that Vladimir Putin will not send any more Russian soldiers and weapons to the Donbass, the Ukrainian army will not bomb cities, and Russian TV channels will not incite hatred and lie on TV and in the following year the award will get a wonderful film critic Dolin or my good friend and a great reporter Egor Mostovshikov.

This guy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on September 21, 2014, 02:00:03 am
http://nbnews.com.ua/ru/news/132338/

Wonder if its true? (not the nuclear weapons use, but the claim of it having been used).

The article says that Valeriy Geletey (the main army guy in Ukraine) claims Russia used nuclear weapons to take the airport in Lugansk.
Most people in comments seem to believe it, but... really?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 21, 2014, 03:17:53 am
Nah.. extremely unlikely. Probably just PR to get attention to UKR conflict. Media is a bit bored of it lately.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on September 21, 2014, 03:41:10 am
Quote from: Thomek on September 21, 2014, 03:17:53 am
Nah.. extremely unlikely. Probably just PR to get attention to UKR conflict. Media is a bit bored of it lately.

I'll take that over what infotainment media usually covers (such as another purposeful "leak" of celebutard camwhore shots)

Can't even read the effing news without being bombarded with fake tits.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 21, 2014, 04:06:42 am
Quote from: Macropus on September 21, 2014, 02:00:03 am
http://nbnews.com.ua/ru/news/132338/

Wonder if its true? (not the nuclear weapons use, but the claim of it having been used).

The article says that Valeriy Geletey (the main army guy in Ukraine) claims Russia used nuclear weapons to take the airport in Lugansk.
Most people in comments seem to believe it, but... really?  :rolleyes:


Its impossible to hide a nuclear strike, even a tactical nuke of 1 kiloton will grow a mushroom of a few thousands feet high.
Its probable the destructions are either exagerated or done by a powerful conventional explosion. Or a new kind of weapon have been manufactured.
Radioactive measurements are easily done to verify the theory...



P.S.: with all those reports of shelling, attacks, etc... cease fire is STILL IN EFFECT?  :shock: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 21, 2014, 06:33:07 am
Long but interesting article on the change in Russia since Yeltsin.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 21, 2014, 01:36:41 pm
At first I saw this :

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And was in doubt: must I read?
I took my courage and...

Quote from: Turkhammer on September 21, 2014, 06:33:07 am
Long but interesting article on the change in Russia since Yeltsin.

(click to show/hide)

Then I clicked your link, and this is the first thing I saw:

(click to show/hide)

Quickly closed after  :?  No need to read more to know the content and goes perfectly together with my assumptions of your post  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on September 21, 2014, 01:56:57 pm
But shirtless Putin Russia strong (((
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 21, 2014, 02:03:13 pm
But his head bigger than whole horse  :shock:  does it mean he very smart? AND stronk?

Putin best leader 2000's!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 21, 2014, 02:51:38 pm
It's a good article Butan, not shamelessly bashing. The New Yorker is a very high quality magazine, more to the liberal left of the american discourse. Besides, New York is not US.. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 21, 2014, 06:34:14 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 21, 2014, 01:36:41 pm
At first I saw this :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


And was in doubt: must I read?
I took my courage and...

Then I clicked your link, and this is the first thing I saw:

(click to show/hide)

Quickly closed after  :?  No need to read more to know the content and goes perfectly together with my assumptions of your post  :mrgreen:

Your opinion of the article would carry more weight if you had actually read it.  It must be very comfortable not to challenge your own assumptions and wallow in willful ignorance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 21, 2014, 07:16:30 pm
Careful you're sounding like Murm!

And I'm sounding like Kuujis  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 21, 2014, 09:18:46 pm
Quote from: Macropus on September 21, 2014, 02:00:03 am
http://nbnews.com.ua/ru/news/132338/

Wonder if its true? (not the nuclear weapons use, but the claim of it having been used).

The article says that Valeriy Geletey (the main army guy in Ukraine) claims Russia used nuclear weapons to take the airport in Lugansk.
Most people in comments seem to believe it, but... really?  :rolleyes:

If I didn't forget how to read the article says that a random journalist made a post on Facebook claiming that Valeriy Geletey said that, without quotes or any proves.
Also lol'd about comments, I looked through comments and actually didn't find a single comment with any signs of believing it. Are you high or are we reading different links?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 21, 2014, 10:04:35 pm
Who still believe in western ukrainian propaganda ? They constantly saying bullshit.

They call their civil war an "anti-terrorist action".... that's probably why they bombed civilian targets, cut all social programs to the Novorossia population, refuse to send humanitarian help to bombed population etc.
It's not exactly the way you fight "terrorists"..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 21, 2014, 10:12:47 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 21, 2014, 07:16:30 pm
Careful you're sounding like Murm!

And I'm sounding like Kuujis  :mrgreen:

If murm directed those type of comments at you, I'd say he was right on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on September 21, 2014, 11:01:30 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 21, 2014, 10:04:35 pm
Who still believe in western ukrainian propaganda ? They constantly saying bullshit.

They call their civil war an "anti-terrorist action".... that's probably why they bombed civilian targets, cut all social programs to the Novorossia population, refuse to send humanitarian help to bombed population etc.
It's not exactly the way you fight "terrorists"..

Tovi, why do you support USA? I thought you were against imperialism of the West. Novorossia is a project of US intelligence. Also Putin is a secret agent of CIA. Basically Russia is USA. What a shame Tovi, I thought you're an OK guy but you're just like the rest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 21, 2014, 11:05:51 pm
Dave just pulled off the reverse-whattefuckwasthat manouver.

 :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 21, 2014, 11:57:24 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on September 21, 2014, 11:01:30 pm
Tovi, why do you support USA? I thought you were against imperialism of the West. Novorossia is a project of US intelligence. Also Putin is a secret agent of CIA. Basically Russia is USA. What a shame Tovi, I thought you're an OK guy but you're just like the rest.

Plot twist: Putin is a double agent of MSS and Obama is only a source. Basically Russia is USA which is guided by China from the shadows...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on September 21, 2014, 11:59:16 pm
Tactical nukes can be quite small. They made 0.01 kiloton 1 kiloton ones in the 60s..
By now  the russians and americans must have perfected them to extremly small devices with high efficiency and little unwanted radiation.
Will probably be undetectable unless you do measurements onsite at the time of detonation.

But why use them, you get the same results with conventional ammunition.... rusikies have big bombs..

edit:wrote when semidrunk. Was supposed to be 1 kiloton. I blame a bad source, mixed a 911 conspiracynutjob article with solid info.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 22, 2014, 12:32:49 am
Didnt know about those! Even though I heard about the davy crockett nukes, but I assumed they were at a minimum of 1 kiloton.

I found a little website which can simulate nuke effect and at 0.01 kiloton it had this radius with annoted effect.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



Also you're right, after a few days there would be no radiations left, so if noone check soon noone will ever know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 22, 2014, 12:49:45 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on September 21, 2014, 09:18:46 pm
If I didn't forget how to read the article says that a random journalist made a post on Facebook claiming that Valeriy Geletey said that, without quotes or any proves.
Also lol'd about comments, I looked through comments and actually didn't find a single comment with any signs of believing it. Are you high or are we reading different links?

Sry about double post, but dont you think its the kind of PR tricks used to throw bullshit and see if it sticks? Then if it doesnt, say it was just a random leak of no import.


http://englishrussia.com/2014/09/20/nuclear-explosions-in-donetsk-today/
Here is a little article with photos and videos of explosions in Donetsk this time.
It actually mix up the story on Lugansk and what happened at Donetsk, but its to show you what an explosion can look like.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 22, 2014, 01:01:34 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 21, 2014, 10:04:35 pm
Who still believe in western ukrainian propaganda ? They constantly saying bullshit.

They call their civil war an "anti-terrorist action".... that's probably why they bombed civilian targets, cut all social programs to the Novorossia population, refuse to send humanitarian help to bombed population etc.
It's not exactly the way you fight "terrorists"..
Because if they send "humanitarian help" there it'll just end up in the hands of the separatists. What a concept, right? Why would they not want to send aid to their enemies? Seriously, your shit keeps getting more and more retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 22, 2014, 01:32:47 am
Quote from: Xant on September 22, 2014, 01:01:34 am
Because if they send "humanitarian help" there it'll just end up in the hands of the separatists. What a concept, right? Why would they not want to send aid to their enemies? Seriously, your shit keeps getting more and more retarded.

I guess if the separatists managed to intercept a red cross caravan full of pasta and toilet paper, this might put the balance of the war askew, since the rebels are totally in a besieged state, having their back to Russia borders, so if they got their hands on humanitarian help, it will greatly improve their battle efficiency and morale.
The fortunate population caught in the crossfire which are naturally fed by both Ukraine and rebels in the middle of the war zones would frown upon such assistance, and possibly even feel insulted.
Also, it would be the first time humanitarian help is ever being the subject of corruption and trafficking, in this case the only logical solution would be to stop any such moves.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: WE MAY LOSE VOVKA AND REST OF DRZ!!!
Post by: Corwin on September 22, 2014, 11:18:49 am
Look at this shit:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/vladimir-putin-plan-unplug-russia-internet-emergency-kremlin-moscow


OMG, Putin is going to kill Strategus!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 22, 2014, 12:47:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 22, 2014, 01:01:34 am
Because if they send "humanitarian help" there it'll just end up in the hands of the separatists. What a concept, right? Why would they not want to send aid to their enemies? Seriously, your shit keeps getting more and more retarded.

Because your own population is not supposed to be your enemy !!! In that case they should consider Novorossia as a enemy - independant - country...

The third humanitarian convoy has just arrived from Russia.

I think Porochenko is not a bad guy, but he's stuck in a trap, between national guard nazees, CIA and NATO, wich all want a conflict with Novorossia and Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 22, 2014, 01:42:01 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 22, 2014, 12:47:18 pm
Because your own population is not supposed to be your enemy !!! In that case they should consider Novorossia as a enemy - independant - country...

The third humanitarian convoy has just arrived from Russia.

I think Porochenko is not a bad guy, but he's stuck in a trap, between national guard nazees, CIA and NATO, wich all want a conflict with Novorossia and Russia.
Ukrainian population as a majority in those regions wanted NOTHING to do with russia or the imported separatists. But once again - vox populis vox canis ( (c) Some Roman guy), because its much more important what putlers media and he himself says.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 22, 2014, 02:07:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 22, 2014, 12:47:18 pm
Because your own population is not supposed to be your enemy !!!
Sure, okay, and so what? What does this have to do with anything? How does this change the fact that you're sending aid to separatists/Russians if you send aid to "Novorossia"?

Quote from: Butan on September 22, 2014, 01:32:47 am
I guess if the separatists managed to intercept a red cross caravan full of pasta and toilet paper, this might put the balance of the war askew, since the rebels are totally in a besieged state, having their back to Russia borders, so if they got their hands on humanitarian help, it will greatly improve their battle efficiency and morale.
The fortunate population caught in the crossfire which are naturally fed by both Ukraine and rebels in the middle of the war zones would frown upon such assistance, and possibly even feel insulted.
Also, it would be the first time humanitarian help is ever being the subject of corruption and trafficking, in this case the only logical solution would be to stop any such moves.
Jesus, you're so fucking stupid it's amazing. It's so very clear you've never been anywhere near anything resembling a military.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 22, 2014, 02:39:46 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 22, 2014, 02:07:58 pm
Sure, okay, and so what? What does this have to do with anything? How does this change the fact that you're sending aid to separatists/Russians if you send aid to "Novorossia"?

It's about the way you consider the conflict. Calling this an anti-terrorist operation is just bullshit, and everybody knows that. Is it too hard to admit it ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 22, 2014, 02:42:39 pm
Quote from: Xant on September 22, 2014, 02:07:58 pm
Hurr Durr I am smart, you're stupid, your argument is invalid.

Xant reaction to arguments in a nutshell.

I wonder if he still believes anyone on this forum dont see the man with nothing to say behind his famous line of defense.
Poor thing  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 22, 2014, 02:49:00 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 22, 2014, 02:42:39 pm
Xant reaction to arguments in a nutshell.

I wonder if he still believes anyone on this forum dont see the man with nothing to say behind his famous line of defense.
Poor thing  :(
Its a chicken-egg thing. If you are stupid and tell him "you are stupid", but in fact YOU are stupid, which means your statement is stupid and that Xant may or may not be stupid, but the situation is so stupid, OR maybe vice versa, Xant tells your are stupid... but that even Tovi makes more sense...

Mind -> blown... :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 22, 2014, 03:23:28 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 22, 2014, 02:39:46 pm
It's about the way you consider the conflict. Calling this an anti-terrorist operation is just bullshit, and everybody knows that. Is it too hard to admit it ?
It's war, not an anti-terrorist operation, yes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 22, 2014, 04:35:13 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 22, 2014, 12:47:18 pm
The third humanitarian convoy has just arrived from Russia.

So now it's like the 6th or 7th Russian invasion in Ukraine right? Strange, media aren't warning us anymore?! :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 22, 2014, 05:16:55 pm
Quote from: Anuran on September 22, 2014, 04:35:13 pm
So now it's like the 6th or 7th Russian invasion in Ukraine right? Strange, media aren't warning us anymore?! :wink:

Wut?  It's all part of the same invasion.  Do you think it is a new invasion each time a new Russian comes into Ukraine?

In other news:
Russian casualties in Ukraine.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 24, 2014, 12:03:19 pm
Russian invasion
(click to show/hide)


Communist invasion :

(click to show/hide)


Western humanitary help :
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 24, 2014, 12:27:15 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 24, 2014, 12:03:19 pm
(click to show/hide)
Do you get paid for this shit per-post basis?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 24, 2014, 01:29:04 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 24, 2014, 12:27:15 pm
Do you get paid for this shit per-post basis?  :lol:
OMG, Kuujis, you are still writing here without any payment? Poor you  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 24, 2014, 02:48:48 pm
I made 30 000€ this year!

Thanks "Meanwhile in Ukraine"!
 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 24, 2014, 03:53:34 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 24, 2014, 12:03:19 pm
Russian invasion
(click to show/hide)


Communist invasion :

(click to show/hide)


Western humanitary help :
(click to show/hide)

 :lol:

What the actual fuck Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 24, 2014, 06:40:20 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 24, 2014, 02:48:48 pm
I made 30 000€ this year!

Thanks "Meanwhile in Ukraine"!
 :mrgreen:
PFftt... even in the backwards eastern EU doing nothing at work but typing random BS in forums I get more... AND as a bonus - I get called an IT Professional !  :rolleyes:  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 25, 2014, 01:53:27 am
Tovi's posts keep getting better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on September 25, 2014, 02:41:04 am
Quote from: Christo on September 24, 2014, 03:53:34 pm
:lol:

What the actual fuck Tovi.

That time his mom dropped him on his head is taking a toll.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 10:12:57 am
A fanatic balt president telling shit how it IS:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lithuanias-president-russia-is-terrorizing-its-neighbors-and-using-terrorist-methods/2014/09/24/eb32b9fc-4410-11e4-b47c-f5889e061e5f_story.html

The funniest thing is - comments under the article are the same as here mostly, just maybe less name calling  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 26, 2014, 01:44:25 pm
Or "When presidents are as hopelessly stupid as their own citizens".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 01:54:41 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 26, 2014, 01:44:25 pm
Or "When presidents are as hopelessly stupid as their own citizens".
Or "When people with personal experience in the matter tell how it actually is and not what putlers propaganda wants to call it".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 26, 2014, 02:27:49 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 01:54:41 pm
Or "When people with personal experience in the matter tell how it actually is and not what putlers propaganda wants to call it".


Or "When confusing reality with counter-propaganda".
We can go on forever  :twisted: 



But srsly, this thread lacks general information on whats happening in Ukraine since ceasefire... I wish more people posted like you Kuujis  :P Dont let this thread die, its like my own child! (and also major source of income!)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 03:58:16 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 26, 2014, 02:27:49 pm

Or "When confusing reality with counter-propaganda".
We can go on forever  :twisted: 

But srsly, this thread lacks general information on whats happening in Ukraine since ceasefire... I wish more people posted like you Kuujis  :P Dont let this thread die, its like my own child! (and also major source of income!)

Just to continue: Or "When confusing seeing reality with counter-instead of propaganda tinted BS".

About whats happening...
1. I read about Poroshenko saying categorical NO to "peace making contingents" which were proposed by russia, citing Moldova and Georgia examples.
2. I read some interesting (but not verified) story about 50 of the white trucks being destroyed during the huge blast some time ago in some weapon plant near Donetsk. No clue what they were doing there or if their cargo was the cause of the blast.
3. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29374151 is an interesting development... I guess Hungary does not want all the cash it gets from EU and would be better off folowing Georgian example.
4. putler apparently changed his ming regarding the postponement of EU-Ukraine trade agreement implementation. I.e. he was expecting (and seems to be expecting) that there will be full re-negotiation, but not much politicians in EU think so... http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a4de51ae-44ca-11e4-9a5a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3ENTlXazR
5. And then - sad reality in the east Ukraine -  http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/an-orwellian-nightmare-for-pro-ukrainians-in-rebel-held-east/2014/09/24/1bc10b94-4a70-4419-aceb-16e10d92528a_story.html
6. An interesting idea of one semi-fameous Pole - http://www.timesofoman.com/News/40454/Article-%E2%80%98Poland-needs-nuclear-arms-to-thwart-Russia%E2%80%99

Oh, and I missed this one:
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-russia-says-eu-mustnt-re-export-gas-to-ukraine-report-2014-9

Because once russia sells you gas - it still has the right to tell you what you can do with it... it is known.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 26, 2014, 05:55:06 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:00:02 pm
And what about the mass graves the insurgents made, they killed people just to get their cars.

Of course they are angels never hurting anybody, but the Ukrainian army is the evil satan jewish gay chocolate chip cookieconspirator

Typical RT

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 26, 2014, 06:04:16 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 03:58:16 pm
4. putler apparently changed his ming regarding the postponement of EU-Ukraine trade agreement implementation. I.e. he was expecting (and seems to be expecting) that there will be full re-negotiation, but not much politicians in EU think so... http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a4de51ae-44ca-11e4-9a5a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3ENTlXazR

Cant read without account  :P

And 1. and 2. doesnt surprise me  :?




Quote from: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 03:58:16 pm
3. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29374151 is an interesting development... I guess Hungary does not want all the cash it gets from EU and would be better off folowing Georgian example.

First time I hear there is one european country who is not feeding from pure unaldutered anti-russian hate.
There may yet be hope for the human race, or they just a second Yanukovitch sucking hypocrite...





Quote from: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 03:58:16 pm
5. And then - sad reality in the east Ukraine -  http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/an-orwellian-nightmare-for-pro-ukrainians-in-rebel-held-east/2014/09/24/1bc10b94-4a70-4419-aceb-16e10d92528a_story.html

Rebels resistance inside a rebellion inside a war zone inside a besieged city.
Tough life to be between civilian and military...


Quote from: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 03:58:16 pm
6. An interesting idea of one semi-fameous Pole - http://www.timesofoman.com/News/40454/Article-%E2%80%98Poland-needs-nuclear-arms-to-thwart-Russia%E2%80%99

Very interesting idea. Never ever heard something of that caliber... Maybe we should push it a bit farther: would be better if we just "convinced" (read, bribe or blackmail or let Russia do the convincing!) every country in the planet to join NATO, build NATO bases 360° around Russia manned with nukes and then there will never be a problem, or if there is well lets just say noone living will be able to blame us for it ever  :lol:
I dont think if Ukraine had nukes situation would have been any different: would they have nuked Donetsk and Luhansk after rebels took position, knowing there was still a lot of citizens and ukrainian rebels along their russian counterparts?
Russia has nukes and it still didnt launch at Ukraine despite the fact there is alleged shelling of their national territory amidst the all-out fight near the borders.
Nukes = pre-emptive intimidation to STOP conventional war from being declared, once unconventional war and other kind of shit start, it serves nothing except possible wiping of human race or a ending a la Japan WWII.


Quote from: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 03:58:16 pm
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-russia-says-eu-mustnt-re-export-gas-to-ukraine-report-2014-9
Because once russia sells you gas - it still has the right to tell you what you can do with it... it is known.

A deal is made by the sellers not the buyers.
Not hard to understand why they dont want Ukraine to be fed gas even if they are getting paid for it.
Same reasons Ukraine dont want rebels to be fed anything if they can stop it, whoever dies along the way of starvation or cold.

If you are unsurprised/unshocked by X, be unsurprised/unshocked at everything :wink:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:08:23 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 26, 2014, 06:04:16 pm
First time I hear there is one european country who is not feeding from pure unaldutered anti-russian hate.
There may yet be hope for the human race, or they just a second Yanukovitch sucking hypocrite...

Putting faith in Orbán?

You know clearly nothing about the state of hungarian politics.

Or the lack of, to be honest
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 26, 2014, 06:12:22 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:00:02 pm
And what about the mass graves the insurgents made, they killed people just to get their cars.

Of course they are angels never hurting anybody, but the Ukrainian army is the evil satan jewish gay chocolate chip cookieconspirator

Typical RT

I gave RT because didn't find something another on english, all others are on russian. I watched about mass graves the insurgents made, really didn't find that this was an execution. Just some mass graves. Maybe they were killed from shelling or were killed by separatists, but they were covered with some cloth and on the video I gave, people were executed and buried randomly
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 26, 2014, 06:12:32 pm
Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:08:23 pm
Putting faith in Orbán?

You know clearly nothing about the state of hungarian politics.

Or the lack of, to be honest


I dont know anything about Hungarian politics.
By your reaction I guess its not a good country, more like an evil country?

But I really dont know anything about them, so if you want to inform me, go ahead  :P



Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:00:02 pm
And what about the mass graves the insurgents made, they killed people just to get their cars.

Of course they are angels never hurting anybody, but the Ukrainian army is the evil satan jewish gay chocolate chip cookieconspirator

Mass graves, as in people who died in a war zone and have been buried?
You're the kind of "never seen a war" guy who screams genocide after seeing a village or two burned to the ground.

Cookieconspirator right back at you :rolleyes:


INB4 omg Butan justify crimes... there certainly is people mass buried to hide how they died, summarily executed for "treason" shit, but mass graves is a part of war whether you like it or not. There isnt always time (nor will) nor possibility to identify corpses before they rot and begin to smell like shit. Which is a reasonable and legit way to justify mass burying possibly summarily executed people who did no wrong... the circle of war and hatred.
Good luck finding who did what.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:29:04 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 26, 2014, 06:12:32 pm
I dont know anything about Hungarian politics.
By your reaction I guess its not a good country, more like an evil country?

Evil? Well, arguably power mongering regime that controls everything, 2/3rd of parliamentary control, giving out positions to "friends" with shady backgrounds and creating networks that only benefit them, to make a centralized flow of money and governmential control.

All this in the name of populism and nationalism, the masses take the bait easily, like the program where they aim to decrease people's bills, and fight back and apply justice to the eeeevil banks. (All of this is arguably bullshit and is already hurting)
 Total change of the educational system to create servants, not allowing them to get out of the country as easily, and it goes on, and on, and on.

Basically a powermongering 1 party regime with no opposition. Abusing populist bullshit to get votes

Orbán is selling the country out to the Russians, look up Paks power plant investment contracts for an example.
http://hungarianspectrum.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/a-brief-summary-of-the-russian-hungarian-agreement-on-the-paks-nuclear-power-plant/ (http://hungarianspectrum.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/a-brief-summary-of-the-russian-hungarian-agreement-on-the-paks-nuclear-power-plant/)

Meanwhile hungarian debt is sky high, it was never this high before, not even during socialist control, which Fidesz claims to be their doing, when it isn't. They are in control since 2010, and it is rising ever since. But if I turn on TV or Radio, all I can see or hear is that

"Hungary performs better", basically a multi-million propaganda program to hide these problems on the media, and etc.

It's just the top of the mountain in addition to his policies in general, like building unnecessary Stadiums which are not used at all.
Screw that dwarf mini-putin
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 07:25:44 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 26, 2014, 06:12:22 pm
I gave RT because didn't find something another on english, all others are on russian. I watched about mass graves the insurgents made, really didn't find that this was an execution. Just some mass graves. Maybe they were killed from shelling or were killed by separatists, but they were covered with some cloth and on the video I gave, people were executed and buried randomly
And this particular bolded statement/fact you described... it speaks VOLUMES to me, but not to you. I even stopped wondering WHY... :?
Quote from: Butan on September 26, 2014, 06:04:16 pm
Cant read without account  :P
Just for you:)
(click to show/hide)

As to Hungary - last thing that got into news from there was massive decrease in freedom of press and other ... shall we call them "centralizing" reforms. Would be interesting to hear from the more informed sources though...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2014, 08:11:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 26, 2014, 07:25:44 pm
As to Hungary - last thing that got into news from there was massive decrease in freedom of press and ...

Well guess why you haven't heard of it ever since  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 27, 2014, 03:12:18 pm
Those are kind of generic statement and accusations.

Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:29:04 pm
Evil? Well, arguably power mongering regime that controls everything, 2/3rd of parliamentary control, giving out positions to "friends" with shady backgrounds and creating networks that only benefit them, to make a centralized flow of money and governmential control.

More details? Or it can sound like, they won elections and use their positions to do laws and shit, nominating their counsellors which works for more power?
Also examples on corrupted personages from the government and projects where there was undue influence or pressure?


Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:29:04 pm
Total change of the educational system to create servants, not allowing them to get out of the country as easily, and it goes on, and on, and on.

?
Servants as in, civil servants? Thats a bad thing down there?
And they cant go abroad, what?  :shock:


Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2014, 06:29:04 pm
Meanwhile hungarian debt is sky high, it was never this high before, not even during socialist control, which Fidesz claims to be their doing, when it isn't. They are in control since 2010, and it is rising ever since. But if I turn on TV or Radio, all I can see or hear is that

"Hungary performs better", basically a multi-million propaganda program to hide these problems on the media, and etc.

It's just the top of the mountain in addition to his policies in general, like building unnecessary Stadiums which are not used at all.

You mean a government which fails things and blame others when they are accused of incompetence, and keep trying to sell their program to the masses to keep in power and get elected next? Wow, thats scandalous.
Whats even more scandalous is that they are collaborating with Russia, so I guess it makes it even more scandalous on the average scandalous meter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 27, 2014, 04:23:53 pm
http://theorangefiles.hu/state-monopoly-on-the-retail-sale-of-tobacco-2/ (http://theorangefiles.hu/state-monopoly-on-the-retail-sale-of-tobacco-2/)

http://www.politics.hu/20130628/survey-reveals-big-majority-believe-tobacco-shop-awards-skewed-towards-fidesz-loyalists/ (http://www.politics.hu/20130628/survey-reveals-big-majority-believe-tobacco-shop-awards-skewed-towards-fidesz-loyalists/)

You can believe me when I say this, pro-fidesz ones got it in my town too.
And they took the rights of selling from people who did this for decades, in an instant. People who can't do anything else now.
Many of those are disabled, or old.

This is but one very minor example, I can't really find an english article about the education stuff.

Anyway have a few pictures, if this isn't biased way of giving these spots out, then nothing is.

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Two separate shops in the same building, they are owned by a Husband&Wife.

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This is 4 separate shops, in the same building.

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It was also done without any common sense added, just furthers the accusations. I can confirm they are stupidly close together, close to schools and kindergartens.

Anyway, don't believe their fake nationalist image they project outwards. They have a completely different agenda going on inside.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 27, 2014, 04:38:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 27, 2014, 03:12:18 pm
You mean a government which fails things and blame others when they are accused of incompetence, and keep trying to sell their program to the masses to keep in power and get elected next? Wow, thats scandalous.
Whats even more scandalous is that they are collaborating with Russia, so I guess it makes it even more scandalous on the average scandalous meter.
You see the thing about collaborating with Russia is that there is no nice middleground or soft analfucking like it is with EU. "Collaboration" with Russia means selling out, unless you are out of their reach geographically or just too powerful for them. They will NOT negotiate with those that are weaker than them and that they dont control. Really look deeper into these weaker countries that are friends with Russia. Basically all of them lack an actual government of their own, their whole purpouse of exsisting is serving Kremlin. And before you start saying shit like Tovi does: "But EU is same". I can say its not. Tovi clearly doesnt know jackshit about puppeted governments or anything related to eastern Europe. While im no expert myself, I can be 100% confident I know more about the subject than Tovi or Murmillus the one with eyes wide open combined.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 27, 2014, 06:11:48 pm
Might be all true, but how to know the same is not true for EU, because its not enough to say "hey, I know man..." even a citizen of Hungary can only grasp at the truth and even then its hard to differentiate political enemies and truth diggers.
Even harder to differentiate true and false accusations with every government on the planet being called corrupt/populist/liars everyday by more or less every branches of the nation and outsiders, some for their own interest.
I dont dig into the "eastern system is intrisically bad" yet, not convinced throughfully.

Anyway dont take my jabs as if I dont listen to what you say, I mostly wanted to provoke you into giving me your point of views, which I like to share  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 27, 2014, 07:26:26 pm
Oh whats happening... THIS, SCANDALOUS! REBELS DECIDED THAT ARTILERY IS BEST PLACED NEXT TO CIVILIAN HOMES! BESTEST PROTECTION EVER!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY4DgqM72xA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on September 27, 2014, 07:31:46 pm
even ukranians left this topic
lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 27, 2014, 07:48:15 pm
The eastern system in practice is horrible and awful Butan..

Corruption there is the norm on all levels of society. Every little inch of power is turned into monetary or other gains on a whole different level than you see in western countries. That system is a ME ME ME ME system 100 times worse than western system.

This is what people in the west just don't get. Because wasn't it supposed to be socialism over there? Not as hard core society as here?

In reality, life in USSR and post-USSR was very though. A culture of lying and deceit was bred since stalin's purges. A necessity for survival in many people's eyes.

....

In Poland (USSR light) they have a word: "Kombinowac" a verb which means to "fix" to "trick it", which was a complete necessity during communism if you wanted something, and I would say Polish society still suffers from that mentality. It could be simple schemes like:  I help your cousin get a car, and you help my daughter get into medical school. It has also a more sinister side though, where people would always try to trick you, so everyone tried to trick the other person back. Like the car would have it's radio ripped out because it wasn't mentioned..

Teachers in my school, this year wanted to kick out a student for various reasons, but they had no legal grounds. So the teachers internally agreed not to consult the student on his project. Without consultation his exam was invalid, thus he got kicked out. In Poland, such powerabuse is common, and there is nothing a student can do about it. No repercussions to the teachers involved.

Basically: People in power can do what they want with no repercussion. You can be fucked suddenly on a whim by people in power, and there is jack shit you can do.

This constant paranoia is much much MUCH worse in Russia. Law is easily bought. Just ask western (or russian.. )companies that have tried to start telecom or whatnot. Some corrupt siberian court in middle of nowhere can make any contract void and null.

Butan, you are a reasonable person, and I do believe you see me as one as well.

Just.. go there. You seem to have some kind of connection. Go there and see for yourself.

It's not a good place for humans to live their lives. At least not compared to the west. This is why I understand and sympathize with Maidan. Those people saw there was another way, and they wanted their country to do the right thing.

I don't love the west, it's just the best there is, and way more able to improve itself than a static eastern system. By far the best of two evils.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 27, 2014, 08:09:36 pm
Dombass fighters :

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Azov batalion :

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 27, 2014, 08:16:35 pm
Haha Thomek, good luck explaining to them why the east is so absurd.

You give money to bribe doctors to get the treatment, while the system is supposed to be free  :mrgreen:

We also have this kind of phenomenon, called different names, "okosba" is one of them, basically meaning do things the "smart" or "cunning" way. Yep, this built-in corruption is meant to be used and is taken as a smart thing to do here, it's not judged by the people.

If you can game the system, you are a respected man basically. If not then you are nothing.

It's the burden-gift of the Kádárist society, and it will never go from this area of europe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Maksimus on September 27, 2014, 08:31:23 pm
(click to show/hide)
Thomek, I can disagree with you, maybe you are talking about 90s then I can agree. Well I can say after USSR was broken, all people in Russia thought that USA will help Russia to become democratic country, I remember how many talkings were about that, but USA used that situation, NATO moved to the East, many billions of dollars went to USA and Europe and Russia sucked for 15 years, a lot of people in Russia became poor. Very interesting why the corruption raised so high. Europe and USA with pleasure got all those money and people who left the country with those money. About business in my country, you should watch the statistics about how many foreign companies open their branches in Russia. Russia only now becomes more powerfull and tries to make people's life better. And this anti-russian propoganda will not help to solve any problems with Russia. We have enough resourses to become the most powerfull country and we started to do it, seems somebody on the West doesn't like it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 27, 2014, 09:09:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 27, 2014, 07:26:26 pm
Oh whats happening... THIS, SCANDALOUS! REBELS DECIDED THAT ARTILERY IS BEST PLACED NEXT TO CIVILIAN HOMES! BESTEST PROTECTION EVER!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY4DgqM72xA

Pretty rare footage stuff.
No comment on "placement" in warfare, you know my position  :P



+1 to all on this page coz good stuff.
Feels good to read not uber extreme views all the time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on September 27, 2014, 09:30:24 pm
Quote from: Maksimus on September 27, 2014, 08:31:23 pm
(click to show/hide)
... NATO moved to the East...
The promise was "no permanent deployment of NATO troops in former Warsaw pact states" a tiny difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on September 27, 2014, 09:34:16 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 27, 2014, 09:09:41 pm
+1 to all on this page coz good stuff.
Feels good to read not uber extreme views all the time.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 27, 2014, 09:35:45 pm
Quote from: Mala on September 27, 2014, 09:30:24 pm
The promise was "no permanent deployment of NATO troops in former Warsaw pact states" a tiny difference.
Who really cares about agreements. There was agreement in Ukraine from 21 february 2014 which would allow Ukraine to become "independent" as many people thinks from Russia without loosing Crimea and war on the East. Do you know what Europe thinks about it they just wiped an arse with that document.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on September 27, 2014, 09:44:55 pm
Both Thomek and Maksimus have a valid point. Thomek explained eastern way of life very well. But Maksimus is right that west don't want strong Russia. Believing in such a thing is like believing that people who play cRPG do it to help each other become better and not to compete against each other, using cunning tricks most of the time.

It is a very difficult position without an easy exit. What needs to happen is to people start using their brains a lot more but we know that is utopia. Therefore, for majority it will only become worse from this point onwards. Majority everywhere, not just in Russia. We had golden years after reconstruction in WWII aftermath. But those times are behind us and there are serious attempts to provoke another big war to keep things going. Elite rules us like rider reigns over his horse, if he let him go for too long he might not perform very well. So put some pressure on him, beat him with a stick occasionally for maximum performance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 27, 2014, 11:12:47 pm
Quote from: Leshma on September 27, 2014, 09:44:55 pm
it will only become worse from this point onwards.

Because we become better everyday.



Quote from: DonNicko on September 27, 2014, 09:35:45 pm
There was agreement in Ukraine from 21 february 2014 which would allow Ukraine to become "independent" as many people thinks from Russia without loosing Crimea and war on the East. Do you know what Europe thinks about it they just wiped an arse with that document.


Sssshhhhh.... dont tell them the whole story!  :mrgreen:


Anyway, it was a bit like some propositions from Poroshenko to stop the unrest: not far enough and far too late.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 28, 2014, 12:32:46 am
Quote from: Maksimus on September 27, 2014, 08:31:23 pm
(click to show/hide)
Thomek, I can disagree with you, maybe you are talking about 90s then I can agree. Well I can say after USSR was broken, all people in Russia thought that USA will help Russia to become democratic country, I remember how many talkings were about that, but USA used that situation, NATO moved to the East, many billions of dollars went to USA and Europe and Russia sucked for 15 years, a lot of people in Russia became poor. Very interesting why the corruption raised so high. Europe and USA with pleasure got all those money and people who left the country with those money. About business in my country, you should watch the statistics about how many foreign companies open their branches in Russia. Russia only now becomes more powerfull and tries to make people's life better. And this anti-russian propoganda will not help to solve any problems with Russia. We have enough resourses to become the most powerfull country and we started to do it, seems somebody on the West doesn't like it.

Ah you mean rich Americans like Abramovich? Sorry..

Russians stole your country man. Wake up please.

No one invaded USSR. Your country fell apart by its own hands.

I won't go into the reasons why it happened.. Perhaps a mix of too much capitalism too fast, and too many corrupt Russians who finally had a chance to take what they "deserved" for what they had suffered. Also, understand the US didn't have a clue about USSR falling. The biggest failure of CIA in history was total failure to predict it, even right up to the moment it happened. Sure a lot of cowboys tried their luck in the 90's but I'm sure the oligarchs have hustled most of it back to RF hands by now. :D

BTW I think the main reason people would have their money abroad, is that their money is not safe in Russia.
If you had a billion $$$.. Would you put it in a Russian bank? :D :D  Thank your corrupt law system for money fleeing Russia.

I'm not preaching anti-russian propaganda here. I'm telling it like it really is. I have no personal hate towards russians at all. As I've stated many times I think they are great people, and I have met many and have many russian friends.

Yes, you have vast resources, but you don't have a system capable of not wasting it or stealing it.

More than anything I sense that russians in here have a tendency to:

1. Blame russian troubles on someone else. (Not productive, but understandable. It's the easiest path to think)
2. Label things anti-russian propaganda. (While in fact, Russian propaganda encourages you to think like that. I'm just stating what I think, perhaps it's influenced by anti-russian propaganda who knows. But these are my own thoughts and experiences. Please don't call them propaganda.  )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 28, 2014, 01:30:13 am
Quote from: Thomek on September 28, 2014, 12:32:46 am
Also, understand the US didn't have a clue about USSR falling. The biggest failure of CIA in history was total failure to predict it, even right up to the moment it happened. Sure a lot of cowboys tried their luck in the 90's but I'm sure the oligarchs have hustled most of it back to RF hands by now. :D

Hmmm... I agree that they didnt predict USSR crumbling at the day it did, but I hope you're not going as far as saying they were not doing whatever they could to make it crumble. That would be revisionism at best.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 28, 2014, 02:19:49 am
Yes, of course, but if you know a little bit of history, it wasn't very strange that it crumbled. It was a fucked up system that didn't work.

This was the MAIN cause, not US politics. And that was my point here. Some people points fingers blaming the west for their misery, while what they should be doing is look at their own system:

Which very hard and near impossible in RF, because they don't have free media, and during a current (propaganda made) consensus that Russia is under threat, if you buy that, then you will much easier buy into all the other shit they serve. If I believed my country was under threat, I would probably too call foreign/enemy info propaganda.

NATO is not, and will not ever threaten Russia as long as MAD is in effect. Because it is suicide, and no one can "win" such a war. Nobody wants that. NATO is expanding because surrounding nations are afraid of Russia, owing to their experience with them.

Anyway.. Main problem, like so many other problems in this world, are that Putin thinks, and many Russians too, that people think like they themselves think. Cynical world, chessplaying world, Realpolitik. I mean.. Russia staged and supported separatists in Georgia and Moldova. This makes it only natural that Maidan was staged in a Russian's eyes. Because Russia wants to dominate Ukraine, that makes it only natural that this is the purpose of EU.. :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 08:53:37 am
Quote from: Thomek on September 28, 2014, 12:32:46 am

More than anything I sense that russians in here have a tendency to:

1. Blame russian troubles on someone else. (Not productive, but understandable. It's the easiest path to think)
2. Label things anti-russian propaganda. (While in fact, Russian propaganda encourages you to think like that. I'm just stating what I think, perhaps it's influenced by anti-russian propaganda who knows. But these are my own thoughts and experiences. Please don't call them propaganda.  )

More than anything I sense that some people in here have a tendency to:

1. Blame ukranian troubles on Russia. (Not productive, but understandable. It's the easiest path to think)
2. Label things russian anti-western propaganda. (While in fact, Western propaganda encourages you to think like that. I'm just stating what I think, perhaps it's influenced by russian propaganda who knows. But these are my own thoughts and experiences. Please don't call them propaganda.  )

Quote from: Thomek on September 28, 2014, 02:19:49 am
Anyway.. Main problem, like so many other problems in this world, are that Putin thinks, and many Russians too, that people think like they themselves think. Cynical world, chessplaying world, Realpolitik. I mean.. Russia staged and supported separatists in Georgia and Moldova. This makes it only natural that Maidan was staged in a Russian's eyes. Because Russia wants to dominate Ukraine, that makes it only natural that this is the purpose of EU.. :P
USA supported Georgia genocide, in Moldova situation is calm. USA supported Maidan. Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, tried to make orange revolution in Belarus. Interesting that USA made a sanctions against Lukashenko, he can't visit USA and some others country, ask them why. Answer me please how Russia controlled Ukraine, you said that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 28, 2014, 10:03:49 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 08:53:37 am
1. Blame ukranian troubles on Russia. (Not productive, but understandable. It's the easiest path to think)
Yeah, what the fuuuuuuuuuck man, all Russia ever did is invade, bomb and threaten Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 28, 2014, 10:10:10 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 08:53:37 am
More than anything I sense that some people in here have a tendency to:

1. Blame ukranian troubles on Russia. (Not productive, but understandable. It's the easiest path to think)
Well yea. Once they kicked the corrupt president out and got a new government, it didnt even take 5 seconds for Russia to instantly call it chocolate chip cookie and state that they arent going to have a dialog with anyone in it. Its not a perfect government, sure, but Kremlin didnt even give them a benefit of the doubt.
Quote from: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 08:53:37 am
2. Label things russian anti-western propaganda. (While in fact, Western propaganda encourages you to think like that. I'm just stating what I think, perhaps it's influenced by russian propaganda who knows. But these are my own thoughts and experiences. Please don't call them propaganda.  )
West didnt label anything. Russia itself turned everything russian into anti-western propaganda. Its kinda like North-Korea. Everything North-Korean is anti-west. And they did that all by themselves, they admit it doing it and they keep on doing it. Cause clearly fighting Evil West is more important than the wellfair of its citizens. Which is what Russia is doing atm. Modern tanks and more lands wont make your country less poor you know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 11:15:35 am
Quote from: Tibe on September 28, 2014, 10:10:10 am
Well yea. Once they kicked the corrupt president out and got a new government, it didnt even take 5 seconds for Russia to instantly call it chocolate chip cookie and state that they arent going to have a dialog with anyone in it. Its not a perfect government, sure, but Kremlin didnt even give them a benefit of the doubt.
Really don't want to give you what the russian government said about situation in Ukraine, because seems you will put it out of your back, but you are wrong, you are right if you are talking about fake russian news and propoganda.

Quote
West didnt label anything. Russia itself turned everything russian into anti-western propaganda. Its kinda like North-Korea. Everything North-Korean is anti-west. And they did that all by themselves, they admit it doing it and they keep on doing it. Cause clearly fighting Evil West is more important than the wellfair of its citizens. Which is what Russia is doing atm. Modern tanks and more lands wont make your country less poor you know.
Yeah ofcourse because of that Obama gave the second place of evils to Russian actions. As you would know show me russian propoganda against Europe. But I can show you USA anti-russian propoganda
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 28, 2014, 12:36:51 pm
Quote from: Thomek on September 28, 2014, 02:19:49 am
NATO is not, and will not ever threaten Russia as long as MAD is in effect. Because it is suicide, and no one can "win" such a war.

Threatening have been done hundreds of time, though there was no direct confrontation yet. My point is they know not to directly attack each other, but they do everything else quite liberally (unconventional wars, proxy wars, cover ops, political games, propaganda...) and they do it all the time since end of WWII, with high and low, highs being "cold war" times, lows being fake friends times.

The only way it ever stop will not be Eastern countries becoming better. Whatever are the real flaws of their system (and every countries on the planet have problems, no need to create a fake parallel universe where Russia is the only place where there is corruption), its not the source of the conflict.
The problem is they do not follow World Police Diplomacy led by USA and NATO. As long as they dont bend the knee and keep being the little rebels, they will be the targets of mass destabilization through every means available, and it is extremely likely that the problems they had, have and will have in the future, their political enemies have a hand in it. Quite simple really.


If you believe that a corrupt free Russia with no poverty and efficient bureaucratic system, and having care-bears leading diplomacy spreading love and happiness all around them, negotiating with everything and everyone; if you believe that that would mean that NATO-centric nations will suddenly begin to lower their guns and renew diplomatic agreements, you're living in a dream.
The only thing it will do is increase the livelihood of Russians and make it harder for anti-russians propaganda to hit home.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 28, 2014, 02:22:14 pm
This is the kind of propaganda you can see in Ukraine to make them love EU :


Well, maybe 1% of french people live like this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 28, 2014, 02:24:05 pm
Tovi? Did you actually watch it before posting?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 28, 2014, 02:26:31 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2014, 02:24:05 pm
Tovi? Did you actually watch it before posting?

More or less... why ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 02:40:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 28, 2014, 02:26:31 pm
More or less... why ?
This is one of the most popular program in Russia, I like to watch it)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 28, 2014, 03:13:39 pm
It's like to say :


 "this is african house. We should all live like africans.
(click to show/hide)

And this is where french live :"

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 28, 2014, 09:29:32 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 08:53:37 am
USA supported Georgia genocide, in Moldova situation is calm. USA supported Maidan. Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, tried to make orange revolution in Belarus. Interesting that USA made a sanctions against Lukashenko, he can't visit USA and some others country, ask them why. Answer me please how Russia controlled Ukraine, you said that.

Genocide in Georgia supported by US? Sources please?

Stable situation in Moldova you say... in what kind of definition do you consider a state "stable", when part of it is occupied by russian soldiers, who pretend to be "keeping peace"? Or "stable" is anything, until there is no war going on?

And again - you want to whine about US? Go on some RT live show, there somone MAYBE would care to liste to you. In Ukraine it was russia who caused the bullshit and continues to do so. To deny and not see it is... well... "only in putlers russia" (c).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 09:53:11 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 28, 2014, 09:29:32 pm
Genocide in Georgia supported by US? Sources please?

Stable situation in Moldova you say... in what kind of definition do you consider a state "stable", when part of it is occupied by russian soldiers, who pretend to be "keeping peace"? Or "stable" is anything, until there is no war going on?

And again - you want to whine about US? Go on some RT live show, there somone MAYBE would care to liste to you. In Ukraine it was russia who caused the bullshit and continues to do so. To deny and not see it is... well... "only in putlers russia" (c).
Kuujis, just read statements that USA made after 08.08.08
Kuujis you are just one of the russian hater, there was peaceful agreement of 21 february 2014, are you so blind not to see why this agreement were ignored and by whom. And after that you want to say that Russia caused it, then read this agreement better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 28, 2014, 11:20:00 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 28, 2014, 09:53:11 pm
Kuujis, just read statements that USA made after 08.08.08
Kuujis you are just one of the russian hater, there was peaceful agreement of 21 february 2014, are you so blind not to see why this agreement were ignored and by whom. And after that you want to say that Russia caused it, then read this agreement better.
What statements? Where exactly did you see a genocide in Georgia and where exactly did you see it being supported by U.S.? If its such a terrible crime - there should be some credible sources speaking about it, writing about it?

You care about agreements so much? Thats something new for a russian... have you taken your pills as prescribed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_Memorandums

What does rUSSIA care (or more specifically what it  SHOULD care, given, that its ANOTHER country) about some corrupt president being ousted by his nation? Lets see... turns out - A LOT. Enough to wipe its ass with treaties it signed, enough to annex part of the countries it signed a treaty NOT to do the exact thing and enough to invade neighboring would-be friendly nation + cause a civil war there. And then its Ukraines fault for not bending hard enough for a rapist to fuck it harder during one of its hardest hours, due to internal problems... Some truly strong arguments there DonNicko... As I said "only in putlers russia" (C).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 08:26:43 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 28, 2014, 11:20:00 pm
What statements? Where exactly did you see a genocide in Georgia and where exactly did you see it being supported by U.S.? If its such a terrible crime - there should be some credible sources speaking about it, writing about it?

You care about agreements so much? Thats something new for a russian... have you taken your pills as prescribed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#The_Budapest_Memorandums

What does rUSSIA care (or more specifically what it  SHOULD care, given, that its ANOTHER country) about some corrupt president being ousted by his nation? Lets see... turns out - A LOT. Enough to wipe its ass with treaties it signed, enough to annex part of the countries it signed a treaty NOT to do the exact thing and enough to invade neighboring would-be friendly nation + cause a civil war there. And then its Ukraines fault for not bending hard enough for a rapist to fuck it harder during one of its hardest hours, due to internal problems... Some truly strong arguments there DonNicko... As I said "only in putlers russia" (C).
Please find this memorandum in full text then read) And find who ratificated this document and how many dollars USA should pay to Ukraine, don't want to find it for you)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 08:39:30 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 08:26:43 am
Please find this memorandum in full text then read) And find who ratificated this document and how many dollars USA should pay to Ukraine, don't want to find it for you)
How is this related to russia wiping its ass with its promise NOT to invade, annex and respect integrity of Ukraine? You can point at others, when you behave as they should. I'm pointing at you and russia in general for being liars and not keeping their promises. I know others have done so before, but its NOT in question here. If you want to complain about US - make another thread. If you go about raping and then say something like "but this kind of raping is legal in some obscure 3rd world country, why can't I do it?" - you deserve to be treated like shit and punished. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also - if you put forward bullshit statements (I can only assume, that you maintain that US did not pay all the dollars it primissed?) - don't ask me to find proofs for it, find them yourself. If they are so abundant - you should not have problems.

I'm also waiting for ANY proofs regarding US supported genocide in Georgia... which you seem to have comfortably forgotten?

Oh, and this is another for Vovka, to help with the calculation of distance to the firing Grads...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogf3nATqdXs&feature=share

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 08:58:58 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 08:39:30 am
How is this related to russia wiping its ass with its promise NOT to invade, annex and respect integrity of Ukraine? You can point at others, when you behave as they should. I'm pointing at you and russia in general for being liars and not keeping their promises. I know others have done so before, but its NOT in question here. If you want to complain about US - make another thread. If you go about raping and then say something like "but this kind of raping is legal in some obscure 3rd world country, why can't I do it?" - you deserve to be treated like shit and punished. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also - if you put forward bullshit statements (I can only assume, that you maintain that US did not pay all the dollars it primissed?) - don't ask me to find proofs for it, find them yourself. If they are so abundant - you should not have problems.

I'm also waiting for ANY proofs regarding US supported genocide in Georgia... which you seem to have comfortably forgotten?
There is no point to discuss it with you, and If you want to complain about Russia - make another thread
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 09:05:21 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 08:58:58 am
There is no point to discuss it with you, and If you want to complain about Russia - make another thread
You are a goat. And you mother is a pigwhale (whale is better, since there is THAT much more jokes about whales on the net :) ). There. Prove, that you are not.

On topic - http://www.ifes.org/~/media/Files/Publications/White%20PaperReport/2014/IFES%20Ukraine%20Survey%20Sep%202014%20PP, Slide 18 is an interesting one, albeit - unfortunately eastern regions were not questioned to be representative, thus the results may be skewed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 09:13:46 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 09:05:21 am
You are a goat. And you mother is a pig. There. Prove, that you are not.
it is very predictable from you that proves once again there is no point to speak with you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 09:22:46 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 09:13:46 am
it is very predictable from you that proves once again there is no point to speak with you
Lets see:
You spout BS about "genocide in Georgia", I ask for proofs - you provide none.
You speak about abiding agreements, then when faced with Memorandum of Budapest you engage in whatabautism, which has zero relevance AND zero proof, aside from being unrelated to russian commitments. So another bullshit.
And then "I'm not worth speaking with"... riiiight... good luck with that  :rolleyes:

Clinging to fucking red herrings, dodging questions and ANY sane mind like a sheep that you are.

Or maybe you are a stubborn goat? But yo mama is still a whale... until you prove otherwise :) Logic of putlers russia.(c)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 29, 2014, 04:22:05 pm
Pls no more xant vs murm-like discussion  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Also I'm sure you can prove logical fallacies without doing mama joke kuujis  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 04:53:44 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 29, 2014, 04:22:05 pm
Pls no more xant vs murm-like discussion  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Also I'm sure you can prove logical fallacies without doing mama joke kuujis  :P

Then you could not treat me like a teenage-ninja-nerd-not-turd  :mrgreen:
Plus I would have to be serious and polite. Being polite and serious all the time sucks. And fuck me - I did try  :?

And the serious part is that this whole story of Ukraine being fucked up by russia just sucks balls beyond all reason... :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 05:08:38 pm
Quote from: Butan on September 29, 2014, 04:22:05 pm
Also I'm sure you can prove logical fallacies without doing mama joke kuujis  :P
No Butan don't deprive Kuujis's only argument
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 29, 2014, 08:10:07 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 04:53:44 pm
Plus I would have to be serious and polite. Being polite and serious all the time sucks. And fuck me - I did try  :?

I know how you feel  :cry:



Quote from: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 05:08:38 pm
No Butan don't deprive Kuujis's only argument


I try but he no let me...  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 08:23:42 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 05:08:38 pm
No Butan don't deprive Kuujis's only argument
I have an even better name for you - SPIDERPIG! Prove you are not one!

Oh, and to keep this on topic and remembering that old story re MH17 - there are these guys who are still trying to investigate stuff about it. Some progress here https://bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2014/09/29/geolocating-the-mh17-buk-convoy-in-russia/

And meanwhile in russia, where food is getting cheaper despite decreased supply: http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/33978411/ceny-na-produkty-rastut-kak-na-drozhzhah. Except - its not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 29, 2014, 08:34:05 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 08:23:42 pm
I have an even better name for you - SPIDERPIG! Prove you are not one!

Oh, and to keep this on topic and remembering that old story re MH17 - there are these guys who are still trying to investigate stuff about it. Some progress here https://bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2014/09/29/geolocating-the-mh17-buk-convoy-in-russia/
Oh, no joke about my mom?
OMG they saw BUKs in Belgorod oblast, more than 300 km from crushing. More fakes please)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 30, 2014, 12:04:55 am
So, Germans have humour ?!  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on September 30, 2014, 12:57:27 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 29, 2014, 08:23:42 pm
Oh, and to keep this on topic and remembering that old story re MH17 - there are these guys who are still trying to investigate stuff about it. Some progress here https://bellingcat.com/resources/case-studies/2014/09/29/geolocating-the-mh17-buk-convoy-in-russia/

On that subject, the only thing I heard of note is that the plane had been shot down by two missiles.
So the first photos with a BUK coming home with ONE missile ramp empty was not related. Except if there had been more than one AA unit around and hardly any traces of more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on September 30, 2014, 02:22:26 am
Where the hell did you hear two missiles?  They shot down another Ukrainian plane few days before as well.

The first news out was the rebels bragging of shooting down another plane on social media.. Anyway that geolocating is excellent.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 08:19:09 am
Quote from: Butan on September 30, 2014, 12:57:27 am
On that subject, the only thing I heard of note is that the plane had been shot down by two missiles.
So the first photos with a BUK coming home with ONE missile ramp empty was not related. Except if there had been more than one AA unit around and hardly any traces of more.
About the 2 missiles - where did you hear this? Genuinely interested, because I saw/read/heard nothing similar :)

Quote from: Thomek on September 30, 2014, 02:22:26 am
Where the hell did you hear two missiles?  They shot down another Ukrainian plane few days before as well.

The first news out was the rebels bragging of shooting down another plane on social media.. Anyway that geolocating is excellent.
Didn't you read? Its all fakes. Don Nicko knows that, because completely reliable putlers media tells him so. Such is the strength of a spiderpig-sheep mind and entelect.

Oh, and an amusing table for the russian-reading :)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 08:54:38 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 08:19:09 am
Didn't you read? Its all fakes. Don Nicko knows that, because completely reliable putlers media tells him so. Such is the strength of a spiderpig-sheep mind and entelect.
Just can't understand what that searches prove if BUK's maximum range is 100 km, And those parad of BUKs were more then 300 km away, what the point?

Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 08:19:09 am
Oh, and an amusing table for the russian-reading :)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Just who made this table? Ukraine government expelled two parties from government. Very Democrtisch, in Russia more then 15 parties. Militarism, maybe you didn't know that money Ukraine got from EU they spent to the war and made new missile rocket. Dominating SBU lol ofcourse yes, and all others definitely yes, except direct agression to the neighbours. Kuujis can you post something more stupid :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 09:23:51 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 08:54:38 am
Just can't understand what that searches prove if BUK's maximum range is 100 km, And those parad of BUKs were more then 300 km away, what the point?
Just who made this table? Ukraine government expelled two parties from government. Very Democrtisch, in Russia more then 15 parties. Militarism, maybe you didn't know that money Ukraine got from EU they spent to the war and made new missile rocket. Dominating SBU lol ofcourse yes, and all others definitely yes, except direct agression to the neighbours. Kuujis can you post something more stupid :D
Just didn't read what the guy wrote, aye? The idea is to track from where to where the buk came, and then where it went back. Which is what the guy in the blog is doing quite nicely. The earlier and the further away tracking starts and the further back it leads - the more consistent it is. Unless you are a spiderpig with a whale for a mother (SEE THE "YO MOMMA JOKE" HERE? special for you  :rolleyes: )

Why do you care who made the table? I find it questionable in few places, but otherwise - pretty shitty to be living in a proper authoritarian state and not even realize that  :rolleyes:

"Russia has more than 15 parties..." And all of them are full of spiderpigs. Next - you will insist, that you have a properly working democracy  :mrgreen: Its enough to have 2-3 parties, if they are genuinely fighting each other (see UK, US for example), but when you can choose pro-putin or pro-putler parties - its not much of a choice.

You seem to be well informed re Ukrainian money spending stuff... sources? Or are these the whispers of a spiderpig entelect?

I'm sorry, it must be strange to you, but 99.99% of population in my country consider annexing parts of another country an aggression. Those remaining 0.01% are spiderpigs. Now... I know you are a spiderpig, but... come on, being THAT blind? I'm not even going to start discussing massive columns of russian troops with heavy armor filmed withing Ukraine, because those are "volunteers" and "people on vacations" who were given tanks, armor, command vehicles, artillery and what not... because its normal to let people take these things out of army camps for vacations and volunteering work. Only in putlers russia (C)

Did I succed in posting something even more stupid??? PLEASE tell me so.

Btw, you are so entelectual - do you have a good plan for when russian fossil fuels will not be wanted in EU? http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/29/us-ukraine-crisis-germany-russia-idUSKCN0HO1L920140929
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:29:39 am
Yes you are succeded in stupidness. You are the one who makes conclusions from the air. Watch Tovi's post, you are like one of the journalists they laughed at
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 09:45:47 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:29:39 am
Yes you are succeded in stupidness. You are the one who makes conclusions from the air. Watch Tovi's post, you are like one of the journalists they laughed at
See? Thats why you are a spiderpig. Either you can't understand the counter-arguments or you are becoming too confused and simply choose to ignore the arguments, findings and ideas, which do not match/support your worldview, which was artificially created for russian sheeps to consume, believe and defend fanatically.

Like for example - annexing part of another country is NOT an act of aggression in your oppinion... which is normal "only in putlers russia (c)".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 30, 2014, 09:53:40 am
It's not an annexion, but a reunification, approved by referendum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:55:41 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 09:45:47 am
See? Thats why you are a spiderpig. Either you can't understand the counter-arguments or you are becoming too confused and simply choose to ignore the arguments, findings and ideas, which do not match/support your worldview, which was artificially created for russian sheeps to consume, believe and defend fanatically.

Like for example - annexing part of another country is NOT an act of aggression in your oppinion... which is normal "only in putlers russia (c)".
And referendum is nothing in your opinion. The fact that new government destabilized the situation by themselves is nothing for you, you are one of those who easily close the eyes to 48 people killed in Odessa, any garanties it wouldn't happen in Crimea. 3500 civilians were killed on the East is nothing for you. That what I call agression. And your arguments are just fakes without any normal proof. So ofcourse you sound like a stupid one, maybe you are not in real life but here you just one of russian haters, who don't need any proofs to blame Russia. Maybe butthurted man?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 10:13:40 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 30, 2014, 09:53:40 am
It's not an annexion, but a reunification, approved by referendum.
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:55:41 am
And referendum is nothing in your opinion. The fact that new government destabilized the situation by themselves is nothing for you, you are one of those who easily close the eyes to 48 people killed in Odessa, any garanties it wouldn't happen in Crimea. 3500 civilians were killed on the East is nothing for you. That what I call agression. And your arguments are just fakes without any normal proof. So ofcourse you sound like a stupid one, maybe you are not in real life but here you just one of russian haters, who don't need any proofs to blame Russia. Maybe butthurted man?
I see...
At the point of a gun, with troops of a foreign country patrolling the streets, blocking army bases, zero chance of normal debates, questionable lists of voters and at best funny, at worst - loaded questions for the vote. RIIIIiiiiiiight Tovi, riiiiight DonNicko... You keep telling this to yourself.

Then repeat the fun stuff about volunteers and vacationeers in eastern Ukraine.

Then ask, who caused the BS: russian propaganda media or actuall Kiev, who did their best to keep calm in Crimea and ORDERED the troops to not resist. Man you are one serious case of spiderpigs...

Lets play a game: spot the main differences between Scotland referendum and Crimea referendum.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 30, 2014, 10:17:00 am
Nah man, 200k people voting in a 100k city is legit. Just minor statistical discrepancies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 10:24:12 am
Quote from: Molly on September 30, 2014, 10:17:00 am
Nah man, 200k people voting in a 100k city is legit. Just minor statistical discrepancies.
One truck of marked votes too much. WOOooops... Did someone at least loose the job over this? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 10:34:29 am
lol man you don't have any proofs and continue make conclusions from the air. Molly what are talking about, nobody knows the real number of people living in Crimea, the last number was from 2001. Kuujis if you so smart then go and ask people in Crimea how referendum was gone and you will see how your conclusions will fail at once.

Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 10:13:40 am
Then ask, who caused the BS: russian propaganda media or actuall Kiev, who did their best to keep calm in Crimea and ORDERED the troops to not resist. Man you are one serious case of spiderpigs...
If you are talking so then you are really don't know nothing about the situation there, seems only from your medias. There was an order to shoot civilians who capture the bases, but soldiers didn't.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 10:45:10 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 10:34:29 am
lol man you don't have any proofs and continue make conclusions from the air. Molly what are talking about, nobody knows the real number of people living in Crimea, the last number was from 2001. Kuujis if you so smart then go and ask people in Crimea how referendum was gone and you will see how your conclusions will fail at once.
If you are talking so then you are really don't know nothing about the situation there, seems only from your medias. There was an order to shoot civilians who capture the bases, but soldiers didn't.
Official announcements about number of voters, which would point to a sudden increase of number of voters by 100k in a city of 100k (which basically means DOUBLING the population, traffic jams and what not) is not proof enough... only for spiderpigs "in putlers russia" (c).

And by extension of your " nobody knows the real number of people living in Crimea" - how can you confidently state, that the vote was legit then? If you don't know how many voters there were - maybe only 1/3rd came to vote, other being afraid? Try to avoid biting your own tail next time.

Regarding the orders to shoot civilians - you will won't mind me asking for some sort of proofs, links, stories about this? Because I recall Simon Ostrovsky visiting SEVERAL bases with his vice news dispatches, where the soldiers, due to orders received, put their weapons into storage to avoid any "missunderstandings" or provocations. We are talking about the same Crimea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 10:57:36 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 10:45:10 am
Official announcements about number of voters, which would point to a sudden increase of number of voters by 100k in a city of 100k (which basically means DOUBLING the population, traffic jams and what not) is not proof enough... only for spiderpigs "in putlers russia" (c).

Regarding the orders to shoot civilians - you will won't mind me asking for some sort of proofs, links, stories about this? Because I recall Simon Ostrovsky visiting SEVERAL bases with his vice news dispatches, where the soldiers, due to orders received, put their weapons into storage to avoid any "missunderstandings" or provocations. We are talking about the same Crimea?
Yes the same, as I said before you can see only one side and too blind to see another
About order
There was an order to shoot, and comander said that nobody from Kiev contacted with them for 21 days.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:11:04 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 10:57:36 am
Yes the same, as I said before you can see only one side aтd too blind to see another
About order
I'm sorry, I didn't hear the order to shoot civilians. It might be my faulty understanding of Ukrainian language, but from what I understood - the general accused the guys of being "of low morale" and not doing enough to defent Ukraine. How is this an order to shoot civilians? This is a moron of a general, accusing his troops who are under hell-of-a-pressure already as being "not motivated enough to defend Ukraine", this is not Kievs order to shoot civilians. The ugly elephant in the room is that Kiev had no good ideas and/or orders to forces in Crimea as to how to act, THAT is true, but order to shoot civilians? There was none.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 11:14:09 am
Then watch again, the comander said it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:26:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 11:14:09 am
Then watch again, the comander said it
Can you point me to the exact time?

Otherwise I can only guess, that you are talking about the fact, that Ukrainian troops had the right to shoot anyone crossing into the territory of the bases without authorization, which they DID on few occasions, but this is VERY far from ordering to "shoot civilians". If you consider this an order to shoot civilians - then all prison guards, lots of personal security firms, police and whole bunch of other situations constitute "an order to shoot civilians", which is plain and simple bullshit... unless you are a spiderpig-sheep and desperately want to keep your belief in... whatever the hell putlers media tells you to believe...[sic].
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 11:34:44 am
6:34-6:40
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:53:28 am
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 11:34:44 am
6:34-6:40
The commander of the batalion thinks, that the order to use weapons against civilians and russian military trying to enter Ukrainian military bases is a violation of law. This is his oppinion, I understand him, but this is anything but the order to shoot civilians directly, as you seem to wish it to sound. Only 10% of soldiers have no problem shooting at people, all others are more likely to imitate firing, than actually aiming and firing. Same with commanders. No news here. And as I said - there were other bases, where commanders ordered fire and fire WAS opened on bunch of russian sheeps trying to capture a base. Again - no problem with that from my side, if one is an idiot of this scale - one deserves a Darwin award.

If you enter presidents palace - you may get shot. If you enter prison - you may get shot. If you enter in a bank, where a private entity decides, that you should not be entering - you may get shot. I do not see a problem with it. This is NOT an order to shoot civilians, this is an order to defend military bases, which is understandable and reasonable, given the aggression by russia. Whether this was a good, timely and wise order - is a secondary question. What problem do you have with it? You think, that some imported tourists from russia masquerading in casual clothes + some brainwashed locals should have full right to stroll around in Ukrainian bases wherever they want doing what ever they want during the aggression by foreign country? You that much spiderpig-sheep? You want them to bend over harder, so that rapist has an easier time fucking them? As if internal underst was not enough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 12:07:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 10:34:29 am
There was an order to shoot civilians who capture the bases, but soldiers didn't.
That what I said, you again trying to accuse me in what I didn't said, and you again trying to make conclisions from the air, I said  go to Crimea and ask people there, russian hater
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 12:14:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 12:07:48 pm
That what I said, you again trying to accuse me in what I didn't said, and you again trying to make conclisions from the air, I said  go to Crimea and ask people there, russian hater
Well... yes... I have misread that, I am sorry. I fell for the red herring as a true fool.

Lets get back to the age old russian tradition of occupying via sham referendums
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 10:45:10 am
Official announcements about number of voters, which would point to a sudden increase of number of voters by 100k in a city of 100k (which basically means DOUBLING the population, traffic jams and what not) is not proof enough... only for spiderpigs "in putlers russia" (c).

And by extension of your " nobody knows the real number of people living in Crimea" - how can you confidently state, that the vote was legit then? If you don't know how many voters there were - maybe only 1/3rd came to vote, other being afraid? Try to avoid biting your own tail next time.

Regarding the orders to shoot civilians - you will won't mind me asking for some sort of proofs, links, stories about this? Because I recall Simon Ostrovsky visiting SEVERAL bases with his vice news dispatches, where the soldiers, due to orders received, put their weapons into storage to avoid any "missunderstandings" or provocations. We are talking about the same Crimea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 12:16:34 pm
I say again go to the Crimea and ask people
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 30, 2014, 12:41:15 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 12:16:34 pm
I say again go to the Crimea and ask people
No u!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 12:45:18 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 30, 2014, 12:41:15 pm
No u!
Me was
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 01:27:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 12:45:18 pm
Me was
You mean those tatars, who are prohibited from returning to Crimea? Or those thousands of refugees, who had to leave? This "go and ask" works both ways. THAT is why you need comprehensive, open, free and legal referendum, not some sham at the point of a gun, which in fact was not much else than annexation of Ukraines land by putlers russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 01:30:11 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 01:27:25 pm
You mean those tatars, who are prohibited from returning to Crimea? Or those thousands of refugees, who had to leave? This "go and ask" works both ways. THAT is why you need comprehensive, open, free and legal referendum, not some sham at the point of a gun, which in fact was not much else than annexation of Ukraines land by putlers russia.
Go and ask both if you want, but not only one side as you prefer
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 02:06:56 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 01:30:11 pm
Go and ask both if you want, but not only one side as you prefer
See, that is the very problem I have. There was NO proper asking everyone involved, there was NO proper formulation of questions, there was NO open, proper debate. There was a sham referendum at the point of foreign gun, which you uphold as "good enough". How this oxymoron fits in your head - I have no clue.

There are good reasons NOT to start redrawing borders of countries due to agitated populace CURRENTLY living in a given region of one country or another. This is how wars started in the past, this is how russia with its propaganda started a civil war in east Ukraine and only due to Ukraine's weakness militarily and their unwillingness to start the bloodshed it did not happen in Crimea first.

Giving up Crimea in retrospective only confirmed, that letting the bully have its way only increases its appetite, not satisfy it.

Also - some more good news-making from russia with love: http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring/russian-tv-uses-crash-pictures-in-mass-grave-report

And to boot - an interesting lecture about nationalism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a6j17VWhBc TLDR thing, that the guy tries to convey is that "Nationalism is constructed and not naturally appearing phenomenon". I'm not entirely sure I buy all of his arguments, but if you do - it would basically mean that there had to be a party to this conflict which constructed the artificial russian nationalism in Crimea, so that this whole annexation BS would pass through "with support", and the only party strong enough to do this was russian state controlled media. One has to recognize this, learn from it and act accordingly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on September 30, 2014, 02:47:27 pm
But what do you want exactly ? People of Crimea taking weapons against Kiev's troop ? Because this is what's happening in the Donbass.
What would you say so ? Russia force them to fight ?
A referendum is much more pacific and democratic than a civil war. But if you refuse it, then you'll have a civil war (or an independance war).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on September 30, 2014, 02:47:27 pm
But what do you want exactly ? People of Crimea taking weapons against Kiev's troop ? Because this is what's happening in the Donbass.
What would you say so ? Russia force them to fight ?
A referendum is much more pacific and democratic than a civil war. But if you refuse it, then you'll have a civil war (or an independance war).
What referendum you are talking about? The sham-shit at the point of a foreign gun under full influence of state controlled russian propaganda media coupled with absurd lies? Thats the "referendum" you are talking about? With the whole extra 100k of votes in Sevastopol? You still insist on calling it something else than a sham?

I would say this: assaulting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, be it via propaganda filled lying media or via a gun is the same: aggression. What one does when faced with aggression? Defend. Retaliate if possible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 03:56:19 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 02:58:04 pm
What referendum you are talking about? The sham-shit at the point of a foreign gun under full influence of state controlled russian propaganda media coupled with absurd lies? Thats the "referendum" you are talking about? With the whole extra 100k of votes in Sevastopol? You still insist on calling it something else than a sham?

I would say this: assaulting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, be it via propaganda filled lying media or via a gun is the same: aggression. What one does when faced with aggression? Defend. Retaliate if possible.
Kuujis did you see official numbers of voters? I think no :D
There were 1 month for both propoganda just there wasn't any movements from Kiev. So how will you call that sittuation that most of the crimenians wanted to be separate from Kiev and with help of foreign country they did it. So you think if people are propoganded then they must be killed? First of all there were both propoganda availiable for East Ukraine, why they chose russian one ask them. And I want to know what do you think about 3500 dead civilians and 48 dead people in Odessa?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on September 30, 2014, 04:05:36 pm
The more the merrier.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 04:17:58 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 03:56:19 pm
Kuujis did you see official numbers of voters? I think no :D
There were 1 month for both propoganda just there wasn't any movements from Kiev. So how will you call that sittuation that most of the crimenians wanted to be separate from Kiev and with help of foreign country they did it. So you think if people are propoganded then they must be killed? First of all there were both propoganda availiable for East Ukraine, why they chose russian one ask them. And I want to know what do you think about 3500 dead civilians and 48 dead people in Odessa?
The original number of voters INCLUDING the100k EXTRA inhabitants of Sevastopol or the original inhabitants? Just so we are clear  :rolleyes:

Mm.... 1 month at the point of a gun. How nice of the occupiers...   8-)

And as I already said - assaulting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, be it via propaganda filled lying media or via a gun is the same: aggression. Ukraine was in internal turmoil, could not defend itselft, russia, who used that and raped it as hard as it could. Thats how I call it. How do yo?

Re propaganda in the east and the choices - yeah... interesting question... what do I think about suddenly appearing well armed and trained groups, who occupy government buildings, then transferring them to locals and act all "we are local freeing you from imaginary naztees in Kiev"... The locals, who according to the pools were a minority, "chose" to created these independentsattelite wannabe-states of russia. Then those minorities get support from russia via propaganda, supplies, eventually - russian army. The sham they tried to call a "referendum" was so funny, that even putler did not approve of its results. When offered to negotiate - they refused and then a normal reaction to armed gangs happened, called ATO. What do I think about those... I think, that its better, when countries stick to their borders and don't cause civil war in their neighboring countries. Thats what I think. russia, putler and spiderpig-sheeps do not think so. They only talk and play whatabautism instead of cleaning up their bullshit. Or did you mean those russian soldiers sent to Ukraine "dobrovolnoprinudytilno" on vacations with all them tanks and shit? EXTRA ugly shit being the BUK misile and the whole MH17 story, which in spiderpig-sheeps oppinion is not a fault of putler at all... (the problem is - there is NO other sources they could aquire BUK and when you give a kid a gun - you are responsible for what the kid does with it).

And I want to know what do you think about 3500 dead civilians and 48 dead people in Odessa? What do I think... I'm heartily sorry for those people. I think russia could have chosen NOT to cause the civil unrest, NOT to spout lies on its state controlled media and NOT incite civil war, but it chose otherwise. Why? Because NOT having external enemies means internal problems become that much more noticeable and government might not have survived that. What else do you want me to "think" about those people? Or you want me to start believing conspiracy theories about the whole Odessa tragedy maybe?

Oh, and a nice QnA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uex8Y9MsFc
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 05:45:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 04:17:58 pm
And as I already said - assaulting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, be it via propaganda filled lying media or via a gun is the same: aggression.
Am I right if USA which support excitements in Hong Kong via media is agression from USA?

Quote
And I want to know what do you think about 3500 dead civilians and 48 dead people in Odessa? What do I think... I'm heartily sorry for those people. I think russia could have chosen NOT to cause the civil unrest, NOT to spout lies on its state controlled media and NOT incite civil war, but it chose otherwise. Why? Because NOT having external enemies means internal problems become that much more noticeable and government might not have survived that. What else do you want me to "think" about those people? Or you want me to start believing conspiracy theories about the whole Odessa tragedy maybe?
What internal problems do you speak about? In Odessa nobody were caught and put in jail, does it say something to you? I think you can't understand one thing that not minority on the East but majority is against Kiev, even they are propoganded, in my opinion that was a crime to begin ATO which become civil war. They don't fight against RF they fight against east ukranians even they are propoganded. I think there are some special generals who teach them tactics and strategy, but most of them are ukranians and starting the war when it can be solved politically is a fault. East didn't start to shoot first, Kiev did it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 05:56:53 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 04:17:58 pm
When offered to negotiate - they refused and then a normal reaction to armed gangs happened, called ATO. What do I think about those... I think, that its better, when countries stick to their borders and don't cause civil war in their neighboring countries. Thats what I think. russia, putler and spiderpig-sheeps do not think so. They only talk and play whatabautism instead of cleaning up their bullshit. Or did you mean those russian soldiers sent to Ukraine "dobrovolnoprinudytilno" on vacations with all them tanks and shit? EXTRA ugly shit being the BUK misile and the whole MH17 story, which in spiderpig-sheeps oppinion is not a fault of putler at all... (the problem is - there is NO other sources they could aquire BUK and when you give a kid a gun - you are responsible for what the kid does with it).
Nice negotiations - give up we will put some of you in jail, no more negotiations. and you call it negotiations? Tanks and some others shit as you say, no exact proof for so long time, even USA started to say that they don't have it. About BUKs three ukranian BUK were at the crash even on the oficial site of Ukraine there is a video, lol but Kiev claimed that there wasn't any. Once Ukraine destroyed a plane in 2001 from BUK system. You think Russia needed to destroy that airplane? lol How west immidiately chose who destroyed that plane without any investigation. Why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 30, 2014, 06:26:36 pm
Quote from: DonNicko
East
Quote from: DonNicko
East
Quote from: DonNicko
East

Please, either replace every "East" in your text with "Donbas" or think if what you are posting does make sense or not.

Not going to read full conversation, it's too long, but some things like that just draw attention.

Oh, and another such thing..
Quote
Once Ukraine destroyed a plane in 2001 from BUK system.
Unless you can prove it... Ukraine didn't.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on September 30, 2014, 06:30:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 05:45:47 pm
Am I right if USA which support excitements in Hong Kong via media is agression from USA?
[...]
Proof or gtfo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 06:34:46 pm
Quote from: serr on September 30, 2014, 06:26:36 pm
Oh, and another such thing..Unless you can prove it... Ukraine didn't.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 06:46:32 pm
Quote from: Molly on September 30, 2014, 06:30:28 pm
Proof or gtfo.
as you wish
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 30, 2014, 06:49:03 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 06:53:39 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 30, 2014, 07:10:04 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 07:15:03 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on September 30, 2014, 07:25:16 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 07:29:30 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 08:46:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 06:46:32 pm
as you wish
I'm sorry, this is proof of what? That US is pro-democracy?

And why the hell should we care OR discuss what US said, when what you should be asking yourself - why the fuck the government you support should lie, trick and cook up stories about a friendly slav nation? OFC these stirr up radicals in russia, some of which even choose to go fight abroad. OFC these shit-stories destabilize and antagonize the Ukrainian population, which already has a lot of problems internally.

Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 05:56:53 pm
Nice negotiations - give up we will put some of you in jail, no more negotiations. and you call it negotiations? Tanks and some others shit as you say, no exact proof for so long time, even USA started to say that they don't have it. About BUKs three ukranian BUK were at the crash even on the oficial site of Ukraine there is a video, lol but Kiev claimed that there wasn't any. Once Ukraine destroyed a plane in 2001 from BUK system. You think Russia needed to destroy that airplane? lol How west immidiately chose who destroyed that plane without any investigation. Why?
I'm sorry, how would you suggest to handle random groups of armed men in russia who are led by citizens of china with ties to china special forces/intelligence agencies and who are claiming, that they will create a new state of "randomnia" in some oil rich Siberia, near the border with china?
You will forgive me for being ignorant, but seeing Ukrainian BUK's behind enemy lines is a bullshit of "only in putlers russia" (c) proportions. Open your fucking eyes, instead of trusting shit putlers media feeds you.

Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 05:45:47 pm
What internal problems do you speak about? In Odessa nobody were caught and put in jail, does it say something to you? I think you can't understand one thing that not minority on the East but majority is against Kiev, even they are propoganded, in my opinion that was a crime to begin ATO which become civil war. They don't fight against RF they fight against east ukranians even they are propoganded. I think there are some special generals who teach them tactics and strategy, but most of them are ukranians and starting the war when it can be solved politically is a fault. East didn't start to shoot first, Kiev did it.
Either you point me to at least REMOTELY credible sources citing the "majority want to join russia" or gtfo. Do you know many countries, where "we do not agree with our government" = "we will occupy buildings and declare a new wanabe-states because russia will help us"?

Ukraine already tried NOT fighting, this brought about russia annexing Crimea. Now you somehow feel, that bending over harded for the rapist that russia has become is the logical and right thing to do? Really? Apeasing a bully that russia is DID NO WORK already, why should ANYONE trust that russia will stop, unless it meets force? The problem is that Ukraine hoped that russia will at least pretend to keep its forces within its borders, but it didn't and the gamble was lost. Now the best they can do is bite the bulled, keep this ugly trust, which was forced upon them by putler and try to create better lives without Crimea and eastern part. THEN - seeing how life can better in the western Ukraine - they might ask to be accepted back. Happened already with the split Germany, will happen again I hope.

Funniest thing I hope to see in my life is russia being fucked hard by China and then crying all around because "Siberia was always russia and those imported millions of chinese emigrants should not have the right to vote for joining China". Man that would be something... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:17:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 08:46:19 pm
Either you point me to at least REMOTELY credible sources citing the "majority want to join russia" or gtfo.
Now if you will not show me where I said that majority wanted to join Russia, then you are blind and again russian hater who sank in his butthurts and it will prove that there is no point to speak to you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 09:28:41 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:17:41 pm
Now if you will not show me where I said that majority wanted to join Russia, then you are blind and again russian hater who sank in his butthurts and it will prove that there is no point to speak to you
Fuck you, I'm too lazy to play this game again. At first - minority wanted "more autonomy", then minority wanted "to join russia", now they want "separate states" or some such shit (still can figure out - 1, 2 or 3?). Is there a difference? Should random armed gangs with leadership comprised of people known to be associated with russian intelligence agencies be tollerated, reasoned with and treated as "representatives" of... whatever the hell they proclaim themselves to be representatives of? Apply this to russia, to say... Kaliningrad, or Pomerania. If this happened there, with Polish or Lithuanians or Fins as the heads of the so called "movements" - what response would you recommend, if they ignored you and continued to cause bullshit?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:40:27 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 09:28:41 pm
Fuck you, I'm too lazy to play this game again. At first - minority wanted "more autonomy", then minority wanted "to join russia", now they want "separate states" or some such shit (still can figure out - 1, 2 or 3?). Is there a difference? Should random armed gangs with leadership comprised of people known to be associated with russian intelligence agencies be tollerated, reasoned with and treated as "representatives" of... whatever the hell they proclaim themselves to be representatives of? Apply this to russia, to say... Kaliningrad, or Pomerania. If this happened there, with Polish or Lithuanians or Fins as the heads of the so called "movements" - what response would you recommend, if they ignored you and continued to cause bullshit?
You just proved that there is no point to discuss it with you, about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be, it has already happened in Tatarstan where I live, here more then half are Tatars and they wanted to seperate in 90's, so Moscow gave a lot of freedom and federalization, Tatarstan had their own army in 90's, hymn and flag and many preferences, so no war was here. Now it's just great region with own culture, all people need to learn Tatar in schools, so I can speak Tatar even I'm pure russian. Because of that I blame ukranian authorities for killing so many civilians. Last comment to you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on September 30, 2014, 10:53:21 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 08:46:19 pm
Open your fucking eyes, instead of trusting shit putlers media feeds you.

You say that someone should open his eyes and stop believing the media? You are really saying that? xD
Who said, meant or connoted "Putler, evil Russia gonna take all of Ukraine, Europe and maybe the world tomorrow, USA is our world savior, friendly and peaceful Ukraine needs to be saved!"?

Yep, they fight for democracy:
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 08:46:19 pm
Apeasing a bully that russia is DID NO WORK already, why should ANYONE trust that russia will stop, unless it meets force?

The evil Russian has to be defeated under all circumstances before it's too late!
(click to show/hide)

For me it really seems like your argumentation is degenerating to simple anti-russian hate due to massive infatuation from media... It's not my intention to support Putin or Russian media here. I know that Russian media lie very often or don't tell the whole truth very often. But that may not make you sure that the western media are 100% objective and telling 100% truth. Recently there was a demonstration in Moscow (which was granted by Moscow!) against Putin's Ukraine politics. There was an article about it in German media. But what our media didn't tell: there are also many demonstrations in Germany and other western countries. People demonstrating against "our" Ukraine politics. Both sides do many and heavy mistakes but ignoring or whitewashing one side doesn't help anyone...
Many accusations against Russia I've read here can easily be reflected on the western side too...
Recommending Tovi's video.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:52:00 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on September 30, 2014, 09:40:27 pm
You just proved that there is no point to discuss it with you, about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be, it has already happened in Tatarstan where I live, here more then half are Tatars and they wanted to seperate in 90's, so Moscow gave a lot of freedom and federalization, Tatarstan had their own army in 90's, hymn and flag and many preferences, so no war was here. Now it's just great region with own culture, all people need to learn Tatar in schools, so I can speak Tatar even I'm pure russian. Because of that I blame ukranian authorities for killing so many civilians. Last comment to you
Did I? Care to shed your ideas, about what is it exactly and when and who wanted in these so called "rebel" countries?

"about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be" - now THIS I do not see happening somehow... sorry, but this is a wishful dream you are having, which relates with reality approximately... in no way. russia is against accepting new NATO members in balkans (because they have no right to choose, without russias approval, DUH), but would allow separatism in some random place incited by a random neighbor coupled with russian smearing propaganda? I just don't see this happening :) No fucking way. I'm not sure, how you see it possible... Siberia had some ideas about federalism, those were... shall we say "squashed quickly"?

As to your Tatarstan being a good example - there are bad examples of Chechnya, which was ruined, because they did not agree with what they were offered. Also - "had their own army" is as vocal as you can get. These eastern "rebels" WERE offered wider autonomy and chance to negotiate, but they did not even agree to negotiate, since they had support of russia. Talking is something Tatarstan actually DID. So lets spot the differences:
1. There was no calling russian or tatar peoples naztees and vice versa, of which russia is guilty till the neck and more, and as a reaction to that - vice versa is true too.
2. Tatarstan actually negotiated and gave up the army it had, neither of which happened with the separatists, even though they had their chance.
3. Tatarstan was NOT supported, encouraged, armed and brainwashed by some external force, all 3 of which happened in Ukraine east and Crimea.
So how is this comparison with your beloved Tatarstan applicable?

Because of that I blame ukranian authorities for killing so many civilians. Good to know that. Please tell this to the mass grave inhabitants, which were found in Slovyansk after rebels were expelled. Definitely - only the government was killing civilians. Cool story bro. Like... that family, which got shot up in a car few moths ago escaping from rebel town... yeah...

Quote from: Anuran on September 30, 2014, 10:53:21 pm
You say that someone should open his eyes and stop believing the media? You are really saying that? xD
Who said, meant or connoted "Putler, evil Russia gonna take all of Ukraine, Europe and maybe the world tomorrow, USA is our world savior, friendly and peaceful Ukraine needs to be saved!"?

Yep, they fight for democracy:
(click to show/hide)

The evil Russian has to be defeated under all circumstances before it's too late!
(click to show/hide)

For me it really seems like your argumentation is degenerating to simple anti-russian hate due to massive infatuation from media... It's not my intention to support Putin or Russian media here. I know that Russian media lie very often or don't tell the whole truth very often. But that may not make you sure that the western media are 100% objective and telling 100% truth. Recently there was a demonstration in Moscow (which was granted by Moscow!) against Putin's Ukraine politics. There was an article about it in German media. But what our media didn't tell: there are also many demonstrations in Germany and other western countries. People demonstrating against "our" Ukraine politics. Both sides do many and heavy mistakes but ignoring or whitewashing one side doesn't help anyone...
Many accusations against Russia I've read here can easily be reflected on the western side too...
Recommending Tovi's video.
But that may not make you sure that the western media are 100% objective and telling 100% truth. Let me find, where I said that... sorry ... searching... can't. Can you? So stfu.
Oh... yeah, I saw one of those "in support of russia" gatherings, being directed by RT(or some other? not that there is a difference) camera man in Italy iirc... :D That was a funny one... With old pensioneers n shit! Then later the actual show with serious faces and all that other "junta" shit. Another cool story well made!

Trying to compare russian "media" with western one... well... you CAN try, but ... well... Western ones get poked and joked about, when they make a mistake, then they even publish apologies sometimes... in putlers russia? You just go with "whataboutism" and all is well  :rolleyes:

The rally in Moscow was second of this type. One interesting question I and a friend raised during our lunch break - where was the opposing "supporting" rally... then we kind of figured - its hard to support something that is NOT happening, right?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 01, 2014, 12:36:12 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:52:00 pm
russia is against accepting new NATO members in balkans (because they have no right to choose, without russias approval, DUH),

Croatia and Slovenia are NATO members. Bosnia is very problematic, not really unified country and still under foreign protectorate. Also filled with thousands of allahu snakbars. Albania is member. Monteblack in spanish is newborn country and was part of the  bigger state that was bombed by NATO. Macedonia is a different kind of trouble, last couple of years plagued by albanian terrorism threat. Kosovo is still a hot topic and don't really need to become NATO member anytime soon, because they are already under American boot (Bondsteel is the biggest NATO base in south-eastern Europe). At last, Serbia has been bombed by NATO and there is no way in hell Serbs will approve NATO membership any time soon, regardless of Russian stance on that subject. Hatred between Serbs and NATO is fresh and a lot stronger than hatred you feel towards Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 01:40:29 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:52:00 pm
Did I? Care to shed your ideas, about what is it exactly and when and who wanted in these so called "rebel" countries?

"about our lands, if there were majority of Polish or Lithuanians or Fins then it could be" - now THIS I do not see happening somehow... sorry, but this is a wishful dream you are having, which relates with reality approximately... in no way. russia is against accepting new NATO members in balkans (because they have no right to choose, without russias approval, DUH), but would allow separatism in some random place incited by a random neighbor coupled with russian smearing propaganda? I just don't see this happening :) No fucking way. I'm not sure, how you see it possible... Siberia had some ideas about federalism, those were... shall we say "squashed quickly"?

As to your Tatarstan being a good example - there are bad examples of Chechnya, which was ruined, because they did not agree with what they were offered. Also - "had their own army" is as vocal as you can get. These eastern "rebels" WERE offered wider autonomy and chance to negotiate, but they did not even agree to negotiate, since they had support of russia. Talking is something Tatarstan actually DID. So lets spot the differences:
1. There was no calling russian or tatar peoples naztees and vice versa, of which russia is guilty till the neck and more, and as a reaction to that - vice versa is true too.
2. Tatarstan actually negotiated and gave up the army it had, neither of which happened with the separatists, even though they had their chance.
3. Tatarstan was NOT supported, encouraged, armed and brainwashed by some external force, all 3 of which happened in Ukraine east and Crimea.
So how is this comparison with your beloved Tatarstan applicable?

Not sure if true, but your "Free Tartarstan" seems to not be a truely "Free" area.
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-183351

Probably the most "damning" part of it.
Quote
All of this is happening at the same time that the Russian

Federation cynically and hypocritically recognized the independence of

the Georgian republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. One can only ask

what is the difference between the rights of the aforementioned

republics and Tatarstan - a Russian colony? It is absolutely clear -

there is no difference. The truth is that Russia practically enslaved

the people of these republics by converting them into their citizens.

Consequently, for Tatars there is no hope any more for the good will of

the Russian colonizers to accomplish any kind of decolonization

whatsoever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 01, 2014, 08:14:04 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:52:00 pm
Trying to compare russian "media" with western one... well... you CAN try, but ... well... Western ones get poked and joked about, when they make a mistake, then they even publish apologies sometimes... in putlers russia? You just go with "whataboutism" and all is well  :rolleyes:

This is something I tell many friends IRL as well. So many people think they are so clever, because they believe to see right through the western media 'propaganda'. But they never realize that while western media are often bending the meaning, taking fragments out of context or being otherwise shitty (mostly because of fucked up economical reasons) this is still far away from the shittiness russian medias are producing, i.e. just making things up and actively falsifying videos, documents or pictures for the (political) purpose.

And of course, I know your answer, you are just so much more clever than me because you see the western medias are doing at the least the same things only even more sophisticated and malicious so they deceive people like me. Come on, wake up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 08:20:31 am
Quote from: Kuujis on September 30, 2014, 11:52:00 pm
Talking is something Tatarstan actually DID. So lets spot the differences:
1. There was no calling russian or tatar peoples naztees and vice versa, of which russia is guilty till the neck and more, and as a reaction to that - vice versa is true too.
2. Tatarstan actually negotiated and gave up the army it had, neither of which happened with the separatists, even though they had their chance.
3. Tatarstan was NOT supported, encouraged, armed and brainwashed by some external force, all 3 of which happened in Ukraine east and Crimea.
So how is this comparison with your beloved Tatarstan applicable?
Kuujis stop showing your stupidness and aknowledge of the situation here. Seems you make statements without any investigation, you have a gift to write so many words and nothing at once. For your stupidness:
1) That time you can't take a job if you don't speak Tatar or not tatar, there was propoganda against Russia, russians and tatars hated each other that time, something left nowadays but only in old people
2) Tatarstan didn't negotiate they took everything they wanted.
3) They were supported by arabic countries especially bu Saudi Arabia, we have some mosques and military schools built by them, actually military school is closed by now because of terrorism, this schooll were 500 meters from mine.
Kuujis you always talk about something you don't know or only heard in your medias. Because of that I try not to speak to you, but your stupidness forces me, because I think people who read it will think another way.
About Chechnya, please I wrote previously, read a history first, Russia gave them their independance, but there started a civil war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 08:57:17 am
Quote from: Leshma on October 01, 2014, 12:36:12 am
Croatia and Slovenia are NATO members. Bosnia is very problematic, not really unified country and still under foreign protectorate. Also filled with thousands of allahu snakbars. Albania is member. Monteblack in spanish is newborn country and was part of the  bigger state that was bombed by NATO. Macedonia is a different kind of trouble, last couple of years plagued by albanian terrorism threat. Kosovo is still a hot topic and don't really need to become NATO member anytime soon, because they are already under American boot (Bondsteel is the biggest NATO base in south-eastern Europe). At last, Serbia has been bombed by NATO and there is no way in hell Serbs will approve NATO membership any time soon, regardless of Russian stance on that subject. Hatred between Serbs and NATO is fresh and a lot stronger than hatred you feel towards Russia.
I can't really comment on the feelings "on-the-ground", but take lavrovs words for what he said - not mine. I mean - lavrov can ask the countries NOT to join, even support/trade them something for this, but call the ideas of accepting them "provocations" just because - thats an arrogance available in putlers russia only.  http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN0HO11U20140929

This is what you are left with, when you pretend to be a great country and in fact sit in words shit hole, which retains some of its importance due to 2 reasons: fossil fuels and nukes. Anything else russia can offer the world? Sadly - no. Which of these foster cooperation instead of fear and one-way dependency? None. That is the problem... and guys living in the past, like putler for example, still strive and pretend to be grand. They rape neighboring countries and then act as if they deserve respect. Oh, and then come around and accuse others of rusofobia... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 09:14:36 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 08:20:31 am
Kuujis stop showing your stupidness and aknowledge of the situation here. Seems you make statements without any investigation, you have a gift to write so many words and nothing at once. For your stupidness:
1) That time you can't take a job if you don't speak Tatar or not tatar, there was propoganda against Russia, russians and tatars hated each other that time, something left nowadays but only in old people
2) Tatarstan didn't negotiate they took everything they wanted.
3) They were supported by arabic countries especially bu Saudi Arabia, we have some mosques and military schools built by them, actually military school is closed by now because of terrorism, this schooll were 500 meters from mine.
Kuujis you always talk about something you don't know or only heard in your medias. Because of that I try not to speak to you, but your stupidness forces me, because I think people who read it will think another way.
About Chechnya, please I wrote previously, read a history first, Russia gave them their independance, but there started a civil war.
1. Propaganda against russians (i.e. minority number-wise againt majority-number-wise) is not the same as russian bullshit against Ukraine. Scale, finances, capabilities were different. Also - I don't remember much calling of naztees one way or another... do you? Because if there is ONE thing defining this conflict russia manufactured it is the idea about"naztee junta" which was shoved so deep in the throat of russians, that they swallow it and rejoice.
2. Tatarstan declared independence via a internationaly monitored referendum. Which russia does not care about. Now the president is set by moscow, usage of latin alphabet is prohibited, muslims are being repressed. Cool story bro. And that CNN article Anders linked - it says "Recently it has deprived the Tatars of the opportunity to teach their children in Tatar" - who is lying?
3. There was support you say... Well then, the Ukraine has all the support it can get from western countries + NATO. Much good it did to it. And vice versa - separatists have no support by russia whatsoever, but russian army still came over the border, trained and supplied the idiots. So there, two kinds of support. Which of these Tatarstan had?

In chechnya - it was indeed NOT russian troops stirring BS </irony> and just because civil war started there it was the good guy russia which came, leveled the fuck out of Grozno and other towns with heavy artillery, caused innumerable attrocities, installed freak of a dictator and then ended the war the way it saw fit. Another cool story dude. Completely different from how suddenly Ukraines rebels should be handled. Care to get some more consistency in dealing with armed rebellions?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 09:38:12 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 09:14:36 am
1. Propaganda against russians (i.e. minority number-wise againt majority-number-wise) is not the same as russian bullshit against Ukraine. Scale, finances, capabilities were different. Also - I don't remember much calling of naztees one way or another... do you? Because if there is ONE thing defining this conflict russia manufactured it is the idea about"naztee junta" which was shoved so deep in the throat of russians, that they swallow it and rejoice.
2. Tatarstan declared independence via a internationaly monitored referendum. Which russia does not care about. Now the president is set by moscow, usage of latin alphabet is prohibited, muslims are being repressed. Cool story bro. And that CNN article Anders linked - it says "Recently it has deprived the Tatars of the opportunity to teach their children in Tatar" - who is lying?
3. There was support you say... Well then, the Ukraine has all the support it can get from western countries + NATO. Much good it did to it. And vice versa - separatists have no support by russia whatsoever, but russian army still came over the border, trained and supplied the idiots. So there, two kinds of support. Which of these Tatarstan had?

In chechnya - it was indeed NOT russian troops stirring BS </irony> and just because civil war started there it was the good guy russia which came, leveled the fuck out of Grozno and other towns with heavy artillery, caused innumerable attrocities, installed freak of a dictator and then ended the war the way it saw fit. Another cool story dude. Completely different from how suddenly Ukraines rebels should be handled. Care to get some more consistency in dealing with armed rebellions?
Kuujis you are so stupid indeed, you want to teach me about the place where I live?  :lol:
Saudi Arabia already built military school in my town, and they would supply with men and weapon if needed, but Tatarstan took everything what they wanted, because of that no civil war started here. You are so stupid to understand this? I have tatar school №29 under my windows where people speak only on tatar and teach only on tatar, so who is lying now. You believe everything that against Russia, you are just russian hater, and who hates something can't think objectively.
Chechnya has even more independance then Tatarstan, you don't know the situation, russian hater, yes Russia turned civil war in Chechnya into it's own interests. Tell me the country who wouldn't do it. Somebody cover it with democracy, somebody with religion, it's all politics and people greed. I don't agree that Russia sent troops to Chechnya, many of them were killed. Russia must act like USA political help, weapon and money that's all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 10:18:00 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 09:38:12 am
Kuujis you are so stupid indeed, you want to teach me about the place where I live?  :lol:
Saudi Arabia already built military school in my town, and they would supply with men and weapon if needed, but Tatarstan took everything what they wanted, because of that no civil war started here. You are so stupid to understand this? I have tatar school №29 under my windows where people speak only on tatar and teach only on tatar, so who is lying now. You believe everything that against Russia, you are just russian hater, and who hates something can't think objectively.
Chechnya has even more independance then Tatarstan, you don't know the situation, russian hater, yes Russia turned civil war in Chechnya into it's own interests. Tell me the country who wouldn't do it. Somebody cover it with democracy, somebody with religion, it's all politics and people greed. I don't agree that Russia sent troops to Chechnya, many of them were killed. Russia must act like USA political help, weapon and money that's all.
OFC I'm stupid for pointing out comparisons of oranges and apples. Of course. No doubt. Because Saudi Arabia being  thousands of KM away and building a school or a few is the same as russia supplying guns, ammo, tanks and finally its own troops to the so-called "rebels". There was not much chance to change anything for Tatarstan due to geographical location and available physical support, and it was completely opposite in eastern Ukraine. I'm not even going to call you stupid for willfully ignoring this.

Can I ask you a personal question? Are you of tatar descent or not?
And for the record - I don't believe everything I read, thats why I ask. Even your "personal view from your window" is subject to a healthy dose of skepticism, because you may or may not belong to a subset of society, which does or does not not feel repressed (e.g. due to descent or other reasons), but there are to many "russia for true russians" movements in russia for me to actually buy into your story of "everything is fine with our minorities, etc". Because I'm that stupid :P

Russia turned civil war in Chechnya into it's own interests. Tell me the country who wouldn't do it. I believe you have some problems evaluating your behavior, when you post shit like this. If someone else goes around raping - is it ok for you to do so too? Because in effect - thats what you are stating. And no, its NOT ok. You and your fucked up country of brainwashed sheep should NOT act like this. If Baltic states were NOT Nato - we would have some of you fucking boots in our countries "saving russian speakers" like naztee Germany did. THAT is why you have russofobia and THAT is why everyone and their grand mothers from russia's neighbors want to move away from you. And acting like a spoiled brat does not help your case. All I see now is a humiliated russia left next to a broken bucket finding guilty parties everywhere else, except at home. Get your act together, become the next Saudi Arabia (there is potential for that with all the natural resources at your disposal), show a GENUINELY BETTER alternative and then you won't have to shove the pro-russian choices at the point of a gun (be it gas pipe or actuall nuke).

I don't agree that Russia sent troops to Chechnya, many of them were killed. Did you ever check, how many CIVILIANS your country killed there? Russian soldiers I could not care less about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 10:47:24 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 10:18:00 am
Can I ask you a personal question? Are you of tatar descent or not?
And for the record - I don't believe everything I read, thats why I ask. Even your "personal view from your window" is subject to a healthy dose of skepticism, because you may or may not belong to a subset of society, which does or does not not feel repressed (e.g. due to descent or other reasons), but there are to many "russia for true russians" movements in russia for me to actually buy into your story of "everything is fine with our minorities, etc". Because I'm that stupid :P
Yes because of that you are stupid, Tatars in Tatarstan not minority but majority, I was born here but I'm russian, three of 4 of my friends are tatars. Russians has been repressed here in 90's. All high ranked state positions belongs to tatars. All presidents and mayors are tatars, you can't be high ranked here if you are russian, just this is culture.

You state this, russian hater
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 10:18:00 am
Everyone and their grand mothers from russia's neighbors want to move away from you.
Just proves again your stupidness in this question.

Sometimes I think that if you were in the burning house, and russian will tell it to you, you will just ignore it and don't believe.
Please stop writing your logical statements it is so boring to read them, too many letters, can you write briefly without chatterboxing a shit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 11:28:17 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 10:47:24 am
Yes because of that you are stupid, Tatars in Tatarstan not minority but majority, I was born here but I'm russian, three of 4 of my friends are tatars. Russians has been repressed here in 90's. All high ranked state positions belongs to tatars. All presidents and mayors are tatars, you can't be high ranked here if you are russian, just this is culture.

You state this, russian haterJust proves again your stupidness in this question.

Sometimes I think that if you were in the burning house, and russian will tell it to you, you will just ignore it and don't believe.
Please stop writing your logical statements it is so boring to read them, too many letters, can you write briefly without chatterboxing a shit
Tatars in tatarstan are NOT majority according to census http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan#cite_note-2010Census-9. So yeah, I'm stupid :) Biggest ethnic group? Yes. Majority? No.

Are leaders of Tatarstan elected in proper elections or are they set by kremlin?

"Everyone and their grandma" is a figure of speech, which illustrates the scope of neighboring countries trying to move further away from russia. Shall I help you?
Finland - old time neutrals suddenly started investigating closer ties to NATO.
Baltics, Poland - well... fall of CCCP and joining EU/NATO asap was more than clear enough I hope?
Georgia - fucked by russia, signed association agreement with EU.
Moldova - see above.
Ukraine  -see 2 lines above.
Remainder of vyshegrad - already away from russia and happy (interesting situation is with Hungary, but its a separate topic, they are not leaving NATO/EU currently AFAIK).
Exceptions? Belarus and Kazachstan. Both dictatorships, both dictators - for now - have the support of putler.
So yeah, I'm stupid and all these facts mean nothing.

Can't be brief, too much stupidity around... You know ... http://xkcd.com/386/  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 12:01:56 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 11:28:17 am
Tatars in tatarstan are NOT majority according to census http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan#cite_note-2010Census-9. So yeah, I'm stupid :) Biggest ethnic group? Yes. Majority? No.

Are leaders of Tatarstan elected in proper elections or are they set by kremlin?

"Everyone and their grandma" is a figure of speech, which illustrates the scope of neighboring countries trying to move further away from russia. Shall I help you?
Finland - old time neutrals suddenly started investigating closer ties to NATO.
Baltics, Poland - well... fall of CCCP and joining EU/NATO asap was more than clear enough I hope?
Georgia - fucked by russia, signed association agreement with EU.
Moldova - see above.
Ukraine  -see 2 lines above.
Remainder of vyshegrad - already away from russia and happy (interesting situation is with Hungary, but its a separate topic, they are not leaving NATO/EU currently AFAIK).
Exceptions? Belarus and Kazachstan. Both dictatorships, both dictators - for now - have the support of putler.
So yeah, I'm stupid and all these facts mean nothing.

Can't be brief, too much stupidity around... You know ... http://xkcd.com/386/  :shock:
Dictatorship? lol, again you speak bullshit and what you heard from your propoganda, have you been in this countries, lol, then go and ask people what they think. Showed again your stupidness. Also Armenia, Azerbaijan, not USSR Mongolia and China, even Georgia without Saakashvili(USA puppet, who if he will return to Gergia will be put in jail for a long time) is in good relation with Russia now.
About Tatarstan, yes it is from Kremlin but not Moscow one, but Kazan.
Now show me your stupidness again, what is the difference between biggest ethnic group and majority group?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 12:38:00 pm
Just a joke:
Gathered once on a Maidan
- ambassadors of the USA, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark;
- the Assistant US Secretary of State - Victoria Nuland;
- the American senators - Chris Murphy and John McCain;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Germany - Guido Westerwelle;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Holland - Frans Timmermans;
- the High Representative of the European Union for foreign affairs and a security policy - Catherine Ashton;
- the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili;
- the europarliamentarian - Jacek Protasiewicz;
- Minister of Foreign Affairs LiNOS Linkyavichyus and speaker of the Seimas of Lithuania Loreta Grauzhinene;
- the former prime minister of Poland - Jaroslaw Kaczynski;
- senator of the Czech Republic - Yaromir Shtetina
and accused Russia of intervention in internal affairs of Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 01, 2014, 12:49:29 pm
Well at least they are not polonium poisoning the president or sending thousands of troops.. Annexing a third of the country etc etc..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on October 01, 2014, 01:22:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 12:38:00 pm
Just a joke:
Gathered once on a Maidan
- ambassadors of the USA, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark;
- the Assistant US Secretary of State - Victoria Nuland;
- the American senators - Chris Murphy and John McCain;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Germany - Guido Westerwelle;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Holland - Frans Timmermans;
- the High Representative of the European Union for foreign affairs and a security policy - Catherine Ashton;
- the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili;
- the europarliamentarian - Jacek Protasiewicz;
- Minister of Foreign Affairs LiNOS Linkyavichyus and speaker of the Seimas of Lithuania Loreta Grauzhinene;
- the former prime minister of Poland - Jaroslaw Kaczynski;
- senator of the Czech Republic - Yaromir Shtetina
and accused Russia of intervention in internal affairs of Ukraine
...and none of them brought a military invading force with them. Nor ripped a part of the country off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 01:29:24 pm
Quote from: Molly on October 01, 2014, 01:22:39 pm
...and none of them brought a military invading force with them. Nor ripped a part of the country off.
Yes, just gave some billions of dollars)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on October 01, 2014, 01:47:32 pm
and do not forget the cookies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 01, 2014, 02:34:29 pm
Years old rumors of political poisoning, defending against silly Georgia blitzkrieg 6 years ago, repressing insurgency in their own territory, supporting a pro-Russian rebellion today.
Thats about all you can blame on Russia since USSR fell. And thats about all we hear whenever someone say, "hey see US/EU interests in Ukraine? Might mean something!", but since Russia has been/is bad then lets just say nothing is happening on the other side  :P

A bit too easy...
I was blamed for trying to compare Russia's doing to US/EU influence in the last twenties and always got called for it. But the opposite is okay even though the proportion doesnt fit?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 02:52:03 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 12:01:56 pm
Dictatorship? lol, again you speak bullshit and what you heard from your propoganda, have you been in this countries, lol, then go and ask people what they think. Showed again your stupidness. Also Armenia, Azerbaijan, not USSR Mongolia and China, even Georgia without Saakashvili(USA puppet, who if he will return to Gergia will be put in jail for a long time) is in good relation with Russia now.
About Tatarstan, yes it is from Kremlin but not Moscow one, but Kazan.
Now show me your stupidness again, what is the difference between biggest ethnic group and majority group?
Oh yeah, I've been to Belorussia, had some visitors from there, colleagues working there... They have this joke "We have no problems according to our media! No money or work either..." :)
Armenia - the same one, which has no borders with russia?
Georgia, the same one, which eagerly signed association treaty with EU as soon as it could, after russia fucking it up in the ass with artificial separatists? The same one, where you said something about "US supported genocide" and then failed to provide ANY proof of that? I believe they are AS friendly to russia as Ukraine is currently. Pun intended.
Azerbaijan, Mongolia - fair enough, no major conflicts I guess, missed those :) I actually didn't intend to leave EU theater of actions, but whatever.
China - the same one, which screwed russia in the recent gas deal and decided not to pay the advance cash, because there is no need to? :)

Good relations all around! Riiiiight...  :rolleyes: I will rephrase myself a bit: everyone who see at least partially realistic alternative - try to move away from russia. Central asia - no alternative, no movements. China? IMHO Russia should be moving away from it, but no my business, I will save popcorns for when China decides to restore historical borders in Siberia.
Oh, and we forgot Japan, which is joining sanctions on its own free will, becase russia is trying to fuck it up too.

About Tatarstan, yes it is from Kremlin but not Moscow one, but Kazan. Care to explain? There are two Kremlins (or by extension  - even more?)? Or is there some mysterious god-knows-who appointed Kremlin as an organization in Kazan who selects leaders of Tatarstan?

Biggest ethnic group is just that - biggest ethnic group. Majority is when there is 50%+1 or more. 34/33/33% split biggest ethnic group is 34%, but they are not majority. Sorry to disappoint you. Unless you are using some "only in putlers russia"(c) grammar.

Oh, and some thoughts on the new russian budged for 2015 http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/09/russian-budget

Quote from: Butan on October 01, 2014, 02:34:29 pm
Years old rumors of political poisoning, defending against silly Georgia blitzkrieg 6 years ago, repressing insurgency in their own territory, supporting a pro-Russian rebellion today.
Thats about all you can blame on Russia since USSR fell. And thats about all we hear whenever someone say, "hey see US/EU interests in Ukraine? Might mean something!", but since Russia has been/is bad then lets just say nothing is happening on the other side  :P

A bit too easy...
I was blamed for trying to compare Russia's doing to US/EU influence in the last twenties and always got called for it. But the opposite is okay even though the proportion doesnt fit?
You oversimplify, so I will oversimplify back: you are comparing "We are EU, its cool to live here, come over, we will screw you some, you will screw us some, we will have a nice consensual fuck-fest and all will be well" with a russian "bend over harder, you don't have a right to resist". Which would any sane mind choose?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 01, 2014, 03:28:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 02:52:03 pm
Oh, and we forgot Japan, which is joining sanctions on its own free will, becase russia is trying to fuck it up too.
Japanese required muricas to lobby for their interests in the East China Sea, as they have no chance to stand alone against the Chinese war machine. So they are willing to swallow as deep as only allows  their body height. But you are tried.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 03:54:58 pm
Quote from: Vovka on October 01, 2014, 03:28:47 pm
Japanese required muricas to lobby for their interests in the East China Sea, as they have no chance to stand alone against the Chinese war machine. So they are willing to swallow as deep as only allows  their body height. But you are tried.
IF China chose to go to war, it would definitely attack Japan, which has basically ZERO stuff that China wants/needs, instead of russia, which siberia is basically all they want/need. True story. Cool story. Cant wait for the popcorns to pop.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 04:06:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 02:52:03 pm
Biggest ethnic group is just that - biggest ethnic group. Majority is when there is 50%+1 or more. 34/33/33% split biggest ethnic group is 34%, but they are not majority. Sorry to disappoint you. Unless you are using some "only in putlers russia"(c) grammar.
So can you tell me how many tatars were in Tatarstan in 1992? MM? Clever boy? In 1989 there were 48,5 % OK. Maybe you don't know that after USSR fell, 85% of migration to Tatarstan were tatars, also you can add there Chuvashs and other similar ethnic groups. How do you think they got 61,4% in referendum of indenpedance of Tatarstan? OMG why I'm talking to you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 04:32:16 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 04:06:12 pm
So can you tell me how many tatars were in Tatarstan in 1992? MM? Clever boy? In 1989 there were 48,5 % OK. Maybe you don't know that after USSR fell, 85% of migration to Tatarstan were tatars, also you can add there Chuvashs and other similar ethnic groups. How do you think they got 61,4% in referendum of indenpedance of Tatarstan? OMG why I'm talking to you
I don't know :) I'm stupid remember?

LETS SAY, there were 100000 citizens there, of these - 60% voted, how can it be, that there are 61% who voted one way or another... I do not know, you tell me, I'm stupid remember? In any case - I do not see any point in comparing apples to oranges, Tatarstan and Ukraines situations were not equal and you can't compare them without making big adjustments or ignoring bunches of other aspects. Or rather - you can, but it will not make much sense and will be a shallow BS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on October 01, 2014, 04:42:56 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 01, 2014, 02:34:29 pm
Years old rumors of political poisoning, defending against silly Georgia blitzkrieg 6 years ago, repressing insurgency in their own territory, supporting a pro-Russian rebellion today.
Thats about all you can blame on Russia since USSR fell. And thats about all we hear whenever someone say, "hey see US/EU interests in Ukraine? Might mean something!", but since Russia has been/is bad then lets just say nothing is happening on the other side  :P

A bit too easy...
I was blamed for trying to compare Russia's doing to US/EU influence in the last twenties and always got called for it. But the opposite is okay even though the proportion doesnt fit?
I can't remember anyone in here actually denying that US/EU have their flaws, doing shitty things. Hell, especially the US has several threads blaming them as a war machine.
This thread is or rather used to be about the Ukraine. What's the point in your "...but the US/EU did..."? Kuujis calls it "whataboutism", I think.
I feel like the loudest people in this thread right now are "Russia did barely anything wrong, it's all cool actually, geopolitics and shit, NATO had it coming". And then you come along with "But this coin has 2 sides!"
No shit, Sherlock... -.-

Just look at Nicko, trying so hard to blame everyone else but Russia.
Me:"Russia send troops into the Ukraine." Murmi/Nicko:"...but Kiev shot back!" Butan:"It ain't that easy."
What kind of discussion is this? :lol:

It actually is pretty easy. Russia did send troops into a sovereign country they had no right to be in and took a piece of that sovereign country. That's not cool. That is wrong. And from that point onward it went ape-shit. Who knows what had happened if they didn't go in guns in hand? My guess is: There wouldn't have been a civil war.

So yes, for this specific situation right now, for all those deaths on both sides, I do blame Russia. They had no business in there with guns. But why waste time with sending in diplomats, right? You want people to talk rather than to shoot when Russia was actually the first aggressor bringing in the big guns.
Then Nicko comes again with "ODESSA!", completely denying the simple fact that Kiev got overwhelmed with other things (Russian troops on their territory is kinda occupying!) and they therefore didn't even have the chance to investigate anything.

Everyone seems so blinded in here by informations from all over the place that nobody uses simple common sense.

One single and simple fact stands for me and is decisive imo: The Green Men were Russian Special forces with big guns. End of story.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 06:16:33 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 11:28:17 am
Tatars in tatarstan are NOT majority according to census http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan#cite_note-2010Census-9.
You stated that Tatars are not majority, remeber that Tatarstan wanted to seperate in 90's not in 1989

Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 04:32:16 pm
I don't know :)
Now you say that you don't know how many tatars were in 1992. So you just said bullshit about what I said, I think just to disprove, but as always far far away just sitting on your sofa.

Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 04:32:16 pm
I don't know :) I'm stupid remember?

LETS SAY, there were 100000 citizens there, of these - 60% voted, how can it be, that there are 61% who voted one way or another... I do not know, you tell me, I'm stupid remember? In any case - I do not see any point in comparing apples to oranges, Tatarstan and Ukraines situations were not equal and you can't compare them without making big adjustments or ignoring bunches of other aspects. Or rather - you can, but it will not make much sense and will be a shallow BS.
I just state that you don't know the situation only from your medias and speak about like you know something and this is stupid, you don't know what happened in Tatarstan, and still trying to teach me what happened here where I live all my life. Because of that you are stupid one. Ok what do you want to tell about Kosovo?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 07:04:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 06:16:33 pm
You stated that Tatars are not majority, remeber that Tatarstan wanted to seperate in 90's not in 1989
Now you say that you don't know how many tatars were in 1992. So you just said bullshit about what I said, I think just to disprove, but as always far far away just sitting on your sofa.
I just state that you don't know the situation only from your medias and speak about like you know something and this is stupid, you don't know what happened in Tatarstan, and still trying to teach me what happened here where I live all my life. Because of that you are stupid one. Ok what do you want to tell about Kosovo?
you really want to argue about math and grammer... Fine :)
1989 - 1,765,404    48.5%    
2002 - 2,000,116    52.9%

Somewhere in between Tatars became majority, you can argue till you drop dead when that became true, I don't care :) That makes you feel better? ALSO - somewhere in between they lost any hope of independence and thats fine, their own business, again - what do I care? Should they attempt anything like in the 1990's - they would go to jail and not to negotiation table most likely.  Thats my personal oppinion, but I'm stupid, what the hell do I know, right?

You live there, you KNOW that russia is a nicest country to its minorities, to native russians, to everyone etc. beyond words, bla bla bla and that's why majority of its neighbors try to find someone, who would be willing to protect them from a nice neighbor that russia imagines it is. And if something in those countries goes wrong - its definitely US/WEST/NATO/ *THEM*, not the russia (which incidentally has occupied territory in 3 of its neighbors... completely unrelated. had to protect russians... from... well ... *ITS COMPLICATED, OK?*).

And what the fuck does Kosovo has to do with the bullshit russia is causing in Ukraine? Another lesson how independence can be achieved properly and another pointer at how russia failed to learn the lesson?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 07:24:09 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 07:04:33 pm
but I'm stupid, what the hell do I know, right?
Right  :lol:

Crimea wanted to seperate from Ukraine and they did it by referendum, in Kosovo there wasn't any referendum in 2008 they just stated independence by help of EU and USA. What the difference?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 01, 2014, 08:10:29 pm
Quote from: Molly on October 01, 2014, 04:42:56 pm
One single and simple fact stands for me and is decisive imo: The Green Men were Russian Special forces with big guns. End of story.

All that glitters is not gold.


Quote from: Molly on October 01, 2014, 04:42:56 pm
X:" Side A did this." Y:"Side B did this." Z:"Side A/B did this."
What kind of discussion is this? :lol:


The best kind of discussion: where you can hear from every point of view.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 08:36:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 07:24:09 pm
Right  :lol:

Crimea wanted to seperate from Ukraine and they did it by referendum, in Kosovo there wasn't any referendum in 2008 they just stated independence by help of EU and USA. What the difference?
Back to that sham-at-the-point-of-a-gun again? Did you include those extra 100k citizens in sevastopol in your referendum of those votes were somehow NOT counted?

Also - check you countries official position regarding Kosovo, I think you might be surprised ;) CBA to even start on the differences... For you there seem to be none between your dear Tatarstan and Crimea/East Ukraine, so... pointless to argue.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 08:42:49 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 08:36:02 pm
Back to that sham-at-the-point-of-a-gun again? Did you include those extra 100k citizens in sevastopol in your referendum of those votes were somehow NOT counted?

Also - check you countries official position regarding Kosovo, I think you might be surprised ;) CBA to even start on the differences... For you there seem to be none between your dear Tatarstan and Crimea/East Ukraine, so... pointless to argue.


On 29 November 2009, Ambassador Konuzin said that Russia will continue to help Serbia "defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity". He also said that "Kosovo echoes in the hearts of all Russians with the same pain as it does in your hearts".

In March 2014, Russia used Kosovo's declaration of independence as a justification for accepting Crimea's independence.

Welp, that was a 360 about face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia's_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 08:59:26 pm
I know russian reaction, so who is right here? Russian supported Crimea but didn't support Kosovo. EU and USA supported Kosovo but didn't support Crimea, I meant what the difference here? I don't say that Russia is right in all things, but Russia didn't started it first. It's a political game, and who thinks that only Russia is an evil in my opninon act like Kuujis
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 09:11:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 08:59:26 pm
I know russian reaction, so who is right here? Russian supported Crimea but didn't support Kosovo. EU and USA supported Kosovo but didn't support Crimea, I meant what the difference here? I don't say that Russia is right in all things, but Russia didn't started it first. It's a political game, and who thinks that only Russia is an evil in my opninon act like Kuujis

Point is: Russia does not accept the validity of a country declaring, without external help influence or otherwise, independence. In fact, they made a point of stating that this "independence" broke multiple international laws and used their power on the Security Council to attempt to enforce something.

This is the exact same situation in Crimea, except for 2 points. 1) Russian Troops "oversaw" the election, leading to the (verified) claim of more votes than people and a sham election. 2) The Election was held under duress, and instead of going to ICJ or other international institution for validity, Russia said it's Free and booted out international talks. Serbia has done both the ICJ route (no Illegality there) and has recently started talks and hearings (2013 Brussels) to arrange the actual independence/ownership of Kosovo.

So, If Russia back out now, and as part of it, made UKRAINE Guarentee a fair election in Crimea now, then everyone would stick by the results. But that would require RUSSIA to renounce Crimea and Guarentee a redo election Held 3 months(or whatever diplomats agree on) after the renounciation of "Independent Crimea"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 09:21:10 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 09:11:35 pm
Point is: Russia does not accept the validity of a country declaring, without external help influence or otherwise, independence. In fact, they made a point of stating that this "independence" broke multiple international laws and used their power on the Security Council to attempt to enforce something.

This is the exact same situation in Crimea, except for 2 points. 1) Russian Troops "oversaw" the election, leading to the (verified) claim of more votes than people and a sham election. 2) The Election was held under duress, and instead of going to ICJ or other international institution for validity, Russia said it's Free and booted out international talks. Serbia has done both the ICJ route (no Illegality there) and has recently started talks and hearings (2013 Brussels) to arrange the actual independence/ownership of Kosovo.

So, If Russia back out now, and as part of it, made UKRAINE Guarentee a fair election in Crimea now, then everyone would stick by the results. But that would require RUSSIA to renounce Crimea and Guarentee a redo election Held 3 months(or whatever diplomats agree on) after the renounciation of "Independent Crimea"
And the spiderpig-sheeps are real... o shi... imma gonna hide now  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 09:28:13 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 09:11:35 pm
Point is: Russia does not accept the validity of a country declaring, without external help influence or otherwise, independence. In fact, they made a point of stating that this "independence" broke multiple international laws and used their power on the Security Council to attempt to enforce something.

This is the exact same situation in Crimea, except for 2 points. 1) Russian Troops "oversaw" the election, leading to the (verified) claim of more votes than people and a sham election. 2) The Election was held under duress, and instead of going to ICJ or other international institution for validity, Russia said it's Free and booted out international talks. Serbia has done both the ICJ route (no Illegality there) and has recently started talks and hearings (2013 Brussels) to arrange the actual independence/ownership of Kosovo.

So, If Russia back out now, and as part of it, made UKRAINE Guarentee a fair election in Crimea now, then everyone would stick by the results. But that would require RUSSIA to renounce Crimea and Guarentee a redo election Held 3 months(or whatever diplomats agree on) after the renounciation of "Independent Crimea"
Thanks, much better then Kuujis.
As I know in Kosovo was NATO's special forces, and there wasn't any elections just parliament stated the independense. For me the same:
1) NATO's special forces = Russian special forces
2) if you wish sham elections (about votes oficial data is OK, just some statements of public people are not, Crimea invited all organizations, but they refused invitation, more then 100 visitors from different country controlled it) = parliament decision
About another referendum maybe it can be, but I think the result will be the same
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 09:36:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 01, 2014, 09:21:10 pm
And the spiderpig-sheeps are real... o shi... imma gonna hide now  :rolleyes:

WHAT?

Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 09:28:13 pm
Thanks, much better then Kuujis.
As I know in Kosovo was NATO's special forces, and there wasn't any elections just parliament stated the independense. For me the same:
1) NATO's special forces = Russian special forces
2) if you wish sham elections (about votes oficial data is OK, just some statements of public people are not, Crimea invited all organizations, but they refused invitation, more then 100 visitors from different country controlled it) = parliament decision
About another referendum maybe it can be, but I think the result will be the same

Ah, but there is a difference. There was no NATO troops there(from what I've read), and it wasn't declared(initially) by the governing body of Kosovo. The referendum was started by parties not involved in any official government capacity and garnered enough votes and power to say: Hey, this is happening. Had the vote actually been started by the governing body, the ICJ would have declared it illegal and improper.(This has happened in Ukraine, though, with Crimea.)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 09:56:40 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 09:36:12 pm
Ah, but there is a difference. There was no NATO troops there(from what I've read), and it wasn't declared(initially) by the governing body of Kosovo. The referendum was started by parties not involved in any official government capacity and garnered enough votes and power to say: Hey, this is happening. Had the vote actually been started by the governing body, the ICJ would have declared it illegal and improper.(This has happened in Ukraine, though, with Crimea.)
Well, The Kosovo Force (KFOR) is a NATO-led international peacekeeping force which was responsible for establishing a secure environment in Kosovo = for me they are special forces. If you are talking about referebdum in 1990 then I accept your statement, but in 2008 it was just a declaration of independence by the Assembly of Kosovo. There wasn't any referendum in 2008 as I read. So for me there are double standarts as from EU/USA as from Russia. As ICJ accepted it, I think it could be just a political action
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 10:39:37 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 09:56:40 pm
Well, The Kosovo Force (KFOR) is a NATO-led international peacekeeping force which was responsible for establishing a secure environment in Kosovo = for me they are special forces. If you are talking about referebdum in 1990 then I accept your statement, but in 2008 it was just a declaration of independence by the Assembly of Kosovo. There wasn't any referendum in 2008 as I read. So for me there are double standarts as from EU/USA as from Russia. As ICJ accepted it, I think it could be just a political action

Isn't the job of a court to be impartial? I only really read the ICJ reasons for the validity of Kosovo, and the main reason, was that it wasn't proclaimed by the governing body but by a (mostly) majority of a different kinda, and then later, ratified/accepted by a (mostly) majority governing body. Still, once again, unlike Crimea.

"the declaration of independence of the 17th of February 2008 did not violate general international law because international law contains no 'prohibition on declarations of independence'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice_advisory_opinion_on_Kosovo%27s_declaration_of_independence
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 01, 2014, 10:43:59 pm
"Get your guns, fight the Russian pigs, the Germans, the jewish pigs and other scum." -Oleh Tyahnybok, 2004
(click to show/hide)

He was kicked out of the parliament then because of his massive anti-semitic and demagogic statements.

Nowadays supported by:
(click to show/hide)

And by certain people here indirectly. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 10:59:32 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 10:39:37 pm
Isn't the job of a court to be impartial? I only really read the ICJ reasons for the validity of Kosovo, and the main reason, was that it wasn't proclaimed by the governing body but by a (mostly) majority of a different kinda, and then later, ratified/accepted by a (mostly) majority governing body. Still, once again, unlike Crimea.

"the declaration of independence of the 17th of February 2008 did not violate general international law because international law contains no 'prohibition on declarations of independence'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice_advisory_opinion_on_Kosovo%27s_declaration_of_independence
Well I don't see much differences. Political game is a political game.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 11:18:22 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 01, 2014, 10:59:32 pm
Well I don't see much differences. Political game is a political game.

Political Game? Now, that's just denying things and passing it off. So, if the ICJ said Crimea was Illegal, would you concur?(In it's current form, It would, but if there was a REDO, without Russian Troops, then it would be exactly the same as Kosovo, and Russia, Serbia, China do not want that. In fact, China has actually stated that it is concerned with Russian annexation of Crimea. It listed itself under this category: "Support for Ukrainian territorial integrity" and has yet to agree that Crimea was annexed. (This is due to the fact that if that happens, large swaths of China can "Go independent" and they do not want that)

But that's a different issue.

Kosovo is actually a (far better) case over Tartarstan (which seems to be not as Free as it is, but that's only from what I have read and is probably very biased). I feel your statements in this area are more like Ostrich behavior and just "stick head in sand" and ignore something that doesn't make sense. This seems to be the typical response in instances like this, from Russian media and sources(or they just spin it to something else).

You're smart, read it up(if you can, I'm not sure of your English language skills and I only speak English so there's no way I can get some of your best sources and if you are hard of English, you cannot get mine. You do seem capable, but I will assume that you are not, so as to believe that some of what I say is lost in translation and errors that I honestly have not perceived)

Now, as for all this, I will declare that I tend to lean "Pro-UKR, Anti-Russia," but I'm more worried, honestly, about how my Country, the US fails at Foreign Policy(Our president doesn't go to his Intelligence and Foreign policy meetings... :shock:). This is a "flashpoint" and clearly shows how US is to twisted on itself to care(and that's a good thing. Leave EU to EU, honestly).

I need to stop, wasted 15 minutes at work on this, argh!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on October 01, 2014, 11:24:58 pm
Всем крымских вин, например!
go crimea
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 01, 2014, 11:52:11 pm
Quote from: Anuran on October 01, 2014, 10:43:59 pm
Nowadays supported by:
(click to show/hide)

And by certain people here indirectly. :rolleyes:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I just turned your world upside-down
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 02, 2014, 12:05:02 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 01, 2014, 08:42:49 pm

On 29 November 2009, Ambassador Konuzin said that Russia will continue to help Serbia "defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity". He also said that "Kosovo echoes in the hearts of all Russians with the same pain as it does in your hearts".

Yeah, just like in 1999...

Quote
Ah, but there is a difference. There was no NATO troops there(from what I've read)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

No need to read about it, you can visit. It's your territory after all, like an embassy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 02, 2014, 01:44:59 am
Quote from: Kafein on October 01, 2014, 11:52:11 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I just turned your world upside-down

'Cept that for a very bizarre remote/small political player to be seen shaking hands with big ones is totally different than big ones together at a multi-party gathering.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 02, 2014, 02:00:08 am
Has it struck you that they probably wanted to speak to western politicians and gather support? Considering the bridge to russia was just burned?

No, of course it was the western politicians that "meddled" with the internal affairs of Ukraine..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on October 02, 2014, 03:57:03 am
Quote from: Tovi on September 30, 2014, 09:53:40 am
It's not an annexion, but a reunification, approved by referendum.

Tovi, you're not retarded, you're special, approved by c-rpg community.

I got disappointed in you when you became pro-American.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on October 02, 2014, 04:49:59 am
Just to clear something up here.

Kosovo's declaration of independence was illegal. Unilaterally declaring independence is illegal under international law.

(click to show/hide)

Carry on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 02, 2014, 06:15:58 am
Quote from: Swaggart on October 02, 2014, 04:49:59 am
Just to clear something up here.

Kosovo's declaration of independence was illegal. Unilaterally declaring independence is illegal under international law.

(click to show/hide)

Carry on.

Nope, it's not illegal. Declaring independence is totally legal as International does not cover declarations of independence from entities. See, ICJ Ruling on said subject in regards to Kosovo.

As per NATO troops: I didn't realize, so, than Kosovo's Declaration is even more accurate to the Crimea Annexation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on October 02, 2014, 08:21:58 am
So many hatred in this thread.
One understands hate of Ukrainians. Most perspective republic of former sojuz. Now even radioactive Belarus is in better shape :shock:
But Ukers are like small children attacking people who will not retaliate. Cos they are afraid of wrath of their new ruling class the true enemy.
Majdan had some chance if instead releasing Tymoshenko, you tie her to nearest tree and burn her as witch.
But surely Russians are responsible for your misery not your Almighty oligarchs.
As I said is easier to attack people who actually like you instead of facing dangerous scums and their well paid mobsters.

But fear not there is always possibility of 30m tall barbed wire fence around Kiev and Benderaland to contain whelps in it  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 08:30:19 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 02, 2014, 06:15:58 am
Nope, it's not illegal. Declaring independence is totally legal as International does not cover declarations of independence from entities. See, ICJ Ruling on said subject in regards to Kosovo.

As per NATO troops: I didn't realize, so, than Kosovo's Declaration is even more accurate to the Crimea Annexation.
Hey, I said about troops previous.
And if declaring independence is totally legal as International does not cover declarations of independence from entities, is it legal the Declaration of independence of the Republic of Crimea is a joint resolution adopted on March 11, 2014 by the Supreme Council of Crimea and the Sevastopol City Council
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2014, 08:57:02 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 08:30:19 am
Hey, I said about troops previous.
And if declaring independence is totally legal as International does not cover declarations of independence from entities, is it legal the Declaration of independence of the Republic of Crimea is a joint resolution adopted on March 11, 2014 by the Supreme Council of Crimea and the Sevastopol City Council

Declaring independence is totally legal, provided you have some legitimacy to do it. The invasion of Crimea by Russian forces has been disguised as a struggle for regional independence. The documents produced by the "Supreme Council of Crimea" and the "Sevastopol City Council" are still fabrications engineered by Russian forces, hence they have no value in this context.

The international community at large condemned the invasion of Crimea, and even more still consider Crimea to be de jure part of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 09:33:23 am
Quote from: Kafein on October 02, 2014, 08:57:02 am
Declaring independence is totally legal, provided you have some legitimacy to do it. The invasion of Crimea by Russian forces has been disguised as a struggle for regional independence. The documents produced by the "Supreme Council of Crimea" and the "Sevastopol City Council" are still fabrications engineered by Russian forces, hence they have no value in this context.

The international community at large condemned the invasion of Crimea, and even more still consider Crimea to be de jure part of Ukraine.
Yes I can agree on that fact, if not Serbia were massively bombed and forced to agree with entering of NATO special forces to Kosovo. I just make parallels. Seems Russia started to use this precedent of Kosovo and try to make the same.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 02, 2014, 09:51:54 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 09:33:23 am
Yes I can agree on that fact, if not Serbia were massively bombed and forced to agree with entering of NATO special forces to Kosovo. I just make parallels. Seems Russia started to use this precedent of Kosovo and try to make the same.
I'm sorry, can you point me to those "bombings" or other atrocities comparable with the ones in Kosovo based on which russia imported its little green men into Crimea? Just so we have proper "parallels". MIssread your statement, deleting :)
And your parralels could be considered valid, IF Crimea wanted to become Crimea, if Donbas wanted to become Donbas (or some strange "Novorussia", which ofc is a name created in Kremlin recently), but all they were aiming for was "joining russia", which is like completely NOT "declaring independence" as was in the case of Kosovo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 10:15:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 02, 2014, 09:51:54 am
I'm sorry, can you point me to those "bombings" or other atrocities comparable with the ones in Kosovo based on which russia imported its little green men into Crimea? Just so we have proper "parallels". MIssread your statement, deleting :)
And your parralels could be considered valid, IF Crimea wanted to become Crimea, if Donbas wanted to become Donbas (or some strange "Novorussia", which ofc is a name created in Kremlin recently), but all they were aiming for was "joining russia", which is like completely NOT "declaring independence" as was in the case of Kosovo.
Hello russian hater, show me again where Novorussia state that they will join Russia without making jokes? Please stop writing bullshit.
Well so if Crimea declared an independence and became Crimea, then Ukraine started ATO in Crimea and Russia started to massively shell and bomb Ukraine, that would be OK in your opinion?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 02, 2014, 10:37:17 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 10:15:56 am
Hello russian hater, show me again where Novorussia state that they will join Russia without making jokes? Please stop writing bullshit.
Well so if Crimea declared an independence and became Crimea, then Ukraine started ATO in Crimea and Russia started to massively shell and bomb Ukraine, that would be OK in your opinion?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/12/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA400LI20140512. I think they expressed this idea even before the sham, they called referendum even, but my memory may be wrong here. Why are you not asking about crimea? The question was there on the voting buletens...elephant in the room, no?  :rolleyes: I SO wanted to link to that one...  :?

Well... regarding the bombing - lets see. russian "volunteer" and/or "on vacations" soldiers with tanks, artillery and other equipement coming from russia and fighting Ukrainian army is... what exactly? I think its pretty that russia already did this, even if not openly.

But again, I misread your statement and corrected myself. The key difference that I see and you fail to notice is that Serbia caused NUMEROUS attrocities against Kosovo during the war, which is why NATO got involved. In case of Ukraine - the bullshit was cooked up by russia and then russia came to the rescue of the "oppressed russians"... which were never there in the first place.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 11:08:58 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 02, 2014, 10:37:17 am
But again, I misread your statement and corrected myself. The key difference that I see and you fail to notice is that Serbia caused NUMEROUS attrocities against Kosovo during the war, which is why NATO got involved. In case of Ukraine - the bullshit was cooked up by russia and then russia came to the rescue of the "oppressed russians"... which were never there in the first place.
About russian tanks and destroyed ghost convoys of armed vehicles, which were confirmed by Poroshenko and Rasmussen and so on, without any proof is a normal, nobody cares about it.
So for you 3500 dead civilians and tragedy in Odessa, some other dead people, closing all russian related Channels, a lot of deputies were bitten by radical people without any accusation is not a NUMEROUS attrocities? Kosovo wanted to seperate from Serbia, Serbia began ATO against Kosovo, NATO bombed Serbia, Kosovo is independent.
Maidan revolution with anti-russian slogans, Crimea didn't like and wanted to seperate, there were some threats from Right sector to bring an order in Crimea, Russia sends special forces, no dead people. Better. Why not the same on Donbass don't know. Same in Georgia, South Osetia wanted to be seperate, Saakashvili began ATO(I use this word to make parallels), Russia bombed Georgia. South Osetia is independent. But not accepted by USA/EU
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 02, 2014, 01:01:29 pm
Kosovo wasn't the same as Crimea. Russia protected their interests on Crimea, while Kosovo pretty much had nothing to do with USA. Reason why USA got involved aren't crimes against humanity (they let that slip way on many occasions in Africa). It's just that Kosovo Albanians were smarter then Serbians. Kosovo Albanians invested their money to school their children in USA, while Yugoslavia/Serbia was isolated from the world. When situation emerged there was strong lobbying in Washington to help Albanians, not because Americans care but because those who were lobbying were paid by American Albanians to do so (those who studied in USA). Also there is stupid conspiracy theory that says how Clinton choose to intervene because he wanted people to forget about sex scandal. But that is nonsense.

People have strange view on things. You need to realize that in eyes of USA or Russia a country like Serbia or small part of it like Kosovo is basically nothing. They (Americans) have no ties to it, it's just a small, random country to them. For Russians it was different because they claim friendship with Serbs (although they rarely helped, unlike the Japanese who are the only people who regularly donate to Serbia). It is easy to understand how couple of millions of dollars in pockets of the right people could force a country to try out some of its newest toys and bring FREEDOM to the world once again.

Ukraine is... different. It has strong ties with Russia and it's cold war all over again. Much more serious then Kosovo or any other previous case. It is so serious that most people forgot about Crimea and are focused on current events.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 02, 2014, 02:26:44 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 02, 2014, 08:57:02 am
Declaring independence is totally legal, provided you have some legitimacy to do it.

Carry on and define a legitimate cause.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 02, 2014, 02:32:15 pm
Might makes right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on October 02, 2014, 04:12:32 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 02, 2014, 11:08:58 am
...
Maidan revolution with anti-russian slogans, Crimea didn't like and wanted to seperate, there were some threats from Right sector to bring an order in Crimea, Russia sends special forces, no dead people. Better. ...
well, during this time russian media has stated that there are a lot of dead people. that is why a "civil defence militias" have poped up, whose members were absolutely not russian soldiers.
and in the end it were russian soldiers all the time "xaxaxa, we have fooled you.) and the lynch victims did not exists anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 02, 2014, 04:41:00 pm
Quote from: Mala on October 02, 2014, 04:12:32 pm
well, during this time russian media has stated that there are a lot of dead people. that is why a "civil defence militias" have poped up, whose members were absolutely not russian soldiers.
and in the end it were russian soldiers all the time "xaxaxa, we have fooled you.) and the lynch victims did not exists anymore.


6 months after the events in Crimea and we still read this kind of bullshit post, its quite saddening.


2 minutes background check if you want to unlearn stupidity:
(click to show/hide)


Russian garrisoned soldiers and Ukrainian militias didnt start the civilian movement, they merely blocked Ukrainian soldiers in their barracks and patrolled the streets during the events, forbidding Ukrainian authority on Crimean soil, which stopped any possible repression and allowed full access to the local government to apply extaordinary measures: referendum and accession to the Russian Federation.
The results of the referendum are too big to be believed and obviously rigged or at least not properly done, but the anti-Maidan movement wasnt created by Russia, it was created by Maidan itself and created unrest in the ethnic russian oblast which were subsequently backed by Russia on minor/large scales, through dubiously legal or unconventional means.

Why is it so hard to accept that the unrest originated from the Ukrainian population itself?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Maksimus on October 02, 2014, 05:05:09 pm
Because people need boogey country to justify huge costs of arms, and ofcourse USA thinks how to hide their the hugest debt of the world
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on October 02, 2014, 07:18:59 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 02, 2014, 04:41:00 pm

6 months after the events in Crimea and we still read this kind of bullshit post, its quite saddening.


2 minutes background check if you want to unlearn stupidity:
(click to show/hide)


...
the reports about riots with lots of deaths in crimea have started at the beginning of march.

anyway, i have write in the beginning of this thread that i can understand that a large part of the population wants to join russia to have a better life, thats ok.
but my problem is that the russian PR machine has done a piss poor job to sell me this whole annexation thing somewhat plausible. (they were better during the georgia crisis).

all i have heared is "this was our land before, must protect your people from nat-sees" (mainly arguments for a national audience).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 02, 2014, 07:45:00 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 02, 2014, 04:41:00 pm

6 months after the events in Crimea and we still read this kind of bullshit post, its quite saddening.

2 minutes background check if you want to unlearn stupidity:
(click to show/hide)

Russian garrisoned soldiers and Ukrainian militias didnt start the civilian movement, they merely blocked Ukrainian soldiers in their barracks and patrolled the streets during the events, forbidding Ukrainian authority on Crimean soil, which stopped any possible repression and allowed full access to the local government to apply extaordinary measures: referendum and accession to the Russian Federation.
The results of the referendum are too big to be believed and obviously rigged or at least not properly done, but the anti-Maidan movement wasnt created by Russia, it was created by Maidan itself and created unrest in the ethnic russian oblast which were subsequently backed by Russia on minor/large scales, through dubiously legal or unconventional means.

Why is it so hard to accept that the unrest originated from the Ukrainian population itself?
You have been dealt by it, it seems.... congratz.
Little green men were there since day 0 basically. You call that "didn't start", I call that "were instrumental in".
Merely prevented Ukrainiant authority in Crimea... How else one would call this... occupation maybe?
anti-maidan was create via HUGE amount of russian propaganda about naztee junta, which you and a bunch of spiderpig-sheep like DonNicko bought and believe. Then all that remained is to act upon the beliefe, which - with encouragement of well organized little green men and other operatives of russia - was quite quick.
And the rest is history.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 02, 2014, 09:31:17 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 01, 2014, 11:52:11 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I just turned your world upside-down

If you think so. :wink: Do you think I didn't know that Putin was integrated "normally" before? This picture is from a G8 meeting. I know about that. Now Russia is excluded from G8 so it's called G7. But I still don't get how an amicable meeting should turn my world view (whatever you mean) upside-down. If you feel good and superior now, I'll let you. Or do you want to say that I want Russia to be excluded from everything or did you mean that--- I am confused! :|

Some other meetings which won't look that nice anymore.
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I'm actually wondering when the "nazi club" will be swung, since I am a German criticizing the system, media, politicians etc. xD
But after this reply to me, I feel it coming closer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2014, 10:01:19 pm
Anuran, you really do have double standards. Westerners spotted shaking hands with Svoboda leader, your logical conclusion is that they are nazi sympathizer, nazi sympathizers shake hands with Putin, everything is fine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 02, 2014, 10:30:23 pm
Those contagious handshakes man! Better be careful!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 02, 2014, 11:21:11 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 02, 2014, 10:01:19 pm
Anuran, you really do have double standards. Westerners spotted shaking hands with Svoboda leader, your logical conclusion is that they are nazi sympathizer, nazi sympathizers shake hands with Putin, everything is fine.

It's not everything fine since they are still nazi sympathizers. They are not only sympathizers anymore, they support him/them already. And Russia is getting isolated, provocated and getting brought to its knees. So the relation between the westerners and Putin has become very tense, it's even another Cold War right now in my opinion. It's at least veeery close to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 02, 2014, 11:33:40 pm
Tomorrow will be a really special day here. Not just because of Germany's reunification. "Day of truth", march to the important NATO base in Kalkar and the march on the Reichstag. Announced events, I hope they will work out.

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I am really curious about it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 12:00:06 am
Quote from: Anuran on October 02, 2014, 11:21:11 pm
It's not everything fine since they are still nazi sympathizers. They are not only sympathizers anymore, they support him/them already. And Russia is getting isolated, provocated and getting brought to its knees. So the relation between the westerners and Putin has become very tense, it's even another Cold War right now in my opinion. It's at least veeery close to it.
Strange to see the rapist being named a victim, just because noone agrees/supports what he has done and thus isolates the perpetrator... poor russia, starts bullshit propaganda campaign, annexes parts of Ukraine, incites and supports civil war in another parts, most of the european neighbors of russia shun it and move away from it (even at great personal cost)... and its all THEIR fault. Not russia, never that... *THEM*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 03, 2014, 12:05:55 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 12:00:06 am
Strange to see the rapist being named a victim, just because noone agrees/supports what he has done and thus isolates the perpetrator... poor russia, starts bullshit propaganda campaign, annexes parts of Ukraine, incites and supports civil war in another parts, most of the european neighbors of russia shun it and move away from it (even at great personal cost)... and its all THEIR fault. Not russia, never that... *THEM*

Who called these rebels "subhumans who have to be defeated"? One hint: it was not Putin. But that man I mean is happy that you (in)directly support him...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on October 03, 2014, 12:46:12 pm
Now that's a good reason to invade and grab land from another country if I ever heard one :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 03, 2014, 12:55:17 pm
Quote from: Molly on October 03, 2014, 12:46:12 pm
Now that's a good reason to invade and grab land from another country if I ever heard one :rolleyes:

Didn't know Putin invaded eastern Ukraine already. Wait, I think I've read it in the newspaper. It was like 6 or 7 times I think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 12:58:31 pm
Quote from: Anuran on October 03, 2014, 12:05:55 pm
Who called these rebels "subhumans who have to be defeated"? One hint: it was not Putin. But that man I mean is happy that you (in)directly support him...
And according to some in russia - there are planes full of zombies, which are meant to publicly shame russia and Ukrainian forces crucify babies... before they eat them. Tru story. Cool story. Much important.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 03, 2014, 01:40:25 pm
I think the kuujis's damaged brain still alive only because the feed in this topic   :P pls dont stop write here ! save kuujis!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 02:19:29 pm
Quote from: Vovka on October 03, 2014, 01:40:25 pm
I think the kuujis's damaged brain still alive only because the feed in this topic   :P pls dont stop write here ! save kuujis!
You are too cute :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 03, 2014, 02:34:38 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 12:58:31 pm
And according to some in ukraine - there are self-bombing rebels, which are meant to publicly shame ukraine and russian forces rape children... before they eat them. Tru story. Cool story. Much important.

Yeppers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 02:58:37 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 03, 2014, 02:34:38 pm
Yeppers.
Oh no you didn't... tell me my eyes are lying. Although... scratch that :) There are enough nutjobs telling enough bullshit on both sides  :rolleyes: No need to fret over it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 03, 2014, 03:19:17 pm
Read it somewhere that apparently Latvia got shitton richer from this crysis. Russian intellectuals are pretty much leaving Russia and placing their funds in other countries where in return the government gives them livingrights. You know what? This is actually quite nice. We'l just take all your smart people and money. Putin can keep his nationalist skinheads, since he clearly favors them so much. :rolleyes:

Cant really give you the source, since I cant find it in english, so it might aswell be moar propaganda and lies(I admit it, it happens), but its still a pretty hilarious thought that could be a potential possibility. A country like Russia, which pretty much favors nationalism, patrotism and selling raw resources over anything else is clearly no place for intellectuals.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 03, 2014, 03:50:33 pm
The good old brain drain over-hyped phenomenon.

It is completely impossible that "intellectuals" all switch off like that, at best a few important ones who dislike the current government, and then if its just book sellers and philosophs its not going to hurt at all.
I would be more worried of scientists and military officiers selling their knowledge to other nations, but this is always way more "locked" for obvious reasons.
How money is linked to brain drain though? Money is more cynical and does not follow politics, the people who least welcomed economical sanctions are the capitalists...

The unrest in Ukraine boosted Russia population up to 1 million thanks to refugees, if they manage to assimilate them and give them jobs I think thats their win. While Ukraine is depopulated and many of its south east industrial zones are completely destroyed.
I would go as far as saying that its in Russia interest to not annex those barren no man's lands.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Overdriven on October 03, 2014, 03:51:13 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29450930

Propaganda and lies!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 03, 2014, 03:57:48 pm
Not lying but exaggerating a natural phenomenon.

Some are too eager to see any crack in Russia economy/diplomacy/whatever and I want to calm them  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 03, 2014, 04:52:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 03, 2014, 03:57:48 pm
Not lying but exaggerating a natural phenomenon.

Some are too eager to see any crack in Russia economy/diplomacy/whatever and I want to calm them  :P

The brain drain is real, but what it mostly does is weakening the opposition. It just shows that basic freedoms don't apply in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 03, 2014, 05:04:17 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 03, 2014, 03:50:33 pm
The good old brain drain over-hyped phenomenon.

It is completely impossible that "intellectuals" all switch off like that, at best a few important ones who dislike the current government, and then if its just book sellers and philosophs its not going to hurt at all.
I would be more worried of scientists and military officiers selling their knowledge to other nations, but this is always way more "locked" for obvious reasons.
How money is linked to brain drain though? Money is more cynical and does not follow politics, the people who least welcomed economical sanctions are the capitalists...
How is it so impossible? It happened before and it is pretty logical. And it wasnt booksellers and philosophs... It was IT workers, lawyers etc. Many cities constantly experience the brain drain phenomen cause inevitably some environments are just more suitable for certain professions. Like for example the town im currently in ideal for techwork, since its basically run by a massive uni and the government funds and media praises its technologicalprojects and IT companies like no tomorrow, since its basically the only thing we could shine with. These workers couldnt do jackshit in any other town and lessening governmentfunding would probably scare off most of them, due to well less ideal living/working conditions. The thing about "intellectuals" is that they are not idiots. They arent bound to stupid shit like patriotism and they are somewhat informed. If they clearly see their livelyhood threatened they bail out and other countries are more than happy to accept them.

As towns it also happens with countries. And money? Isnt really linked yea. Its just that Latvian law states that people who basically invest large sum of money into the country get the "green card".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 03, 2014, 05:18:33 pm
Oh, I'm so tired of discussing evil Russia.
About Ukraine. In the center of Donetsk because of shelling 10 civilians were killed and was killed Laurent Etienne Du Pasquier from Red Cross. Separatists stated that Ukraine army bombed that regions, Kiev stated that separatists bombed that regions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 03, 2014, 08:08:11 pm
Still with the self bombing?  :rolleyes:

Link please if you have. I want a laugh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 08:30:10 pm
Because its TOTALLY logical for Ukraine troops to fire on... what exactly? Too much ammo maybe?

And Butan - you have a strange sense of humor laughing at the death of an innocent bystander, who WAS there to help, instead of usual russian BS.

Meanwhile evil silly russia spins its spirderwebs... and gets cought in them itself. Any russian consumers saw an apology/retraction in your press or TV regarding this?
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-unspun-osce-probe-murders-gang-rapes-mass-graves/26615896.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 03, 2014, 11:50:36 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 03, 2014, 08:30:10 pm
And Butan - you have a strange sense of humor laughing at the death of an innocent bystander, who WAS there to help, instead of usual russian BS.

Considering its an innocent person who is one of the few humanitarian help allowed to go into Ukraine east and obviously killed by Ukrainian bombardment who still use the same excuse of "rebels did it" self-bombing (someone think its possible to die in 100% rebel controlled Donetsk from rebel controlled artillery?), I find it amusing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 04, 2014, 12:05:50 am
Because rebels and vodka isn't a thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 04, 2014, 12:10:40 am
Quote from: Butan on October 03, 2014, 11:50:36 pm
Considering its an innocent person who is one of the few humanitarian help allowed to go into Ukraine east and obviously killed by Ukrainian bombardment who still use the same excuse of "rebels did it" self-bombing (someone think its possible to die in 100% rebel controlled Donetsk from rebel controlled artillery?), I find it amusing.
Lets play this shit of a game "no proof - no foul" on both sides. You have any proof? Anyone else? Indirect ones can be cooked up for both sides and they are as much "amusing" :) IF one is firing artillery at civilian areas - one should have a reasonable cause, no? What would that be for Ukrainians?

About the previous shells falling near a school, a nice analysis, with a lot of details: http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-227-fighting-rages-on-around-donetsk-airport/#4493 If this IS true - then morons are indeed shelling "their own side" from time to time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 04, 2014, 12:30:11 am
Thats the center of the HQ city of one of the two rebel armies we talking, not indirect frontline proximity miscalculation.

Thats about as obvious as russian green men in Crimea and pro-Rus rebels claiming they shot a plane at the same time MH17 got hit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 04, 2014, 01:57:12 am
I don't believe any side here is any "better" as in the methods they use on the battlefield. There are very little proof either way.

Of course RF media works hard with demonizing UKR forces like they have since the beginning. I haven't noted much demonizing of RF methods going on in western media, but they are also biased in the sense that they don't (and probably it is impossible for them) show both sides in a balanced way.

I think a healthy assumption is to say the actual used battlefield methods are equal. Both of them use artillery, insurgency might be hiding among civilians (Like we saw in a video in this thread), and UKR forces will retaliate fire, like any army in the world.

I don't even believe Russian or Ukraine forces to be "evil" or "bad". They are all just doing their job.

Now, the politicians that have created this situation however are guilty as fuck. It is a completely unnecessary war between brother people, with near zero ethnic, cultural or economical grounds. It is a symbolic war for internal and geo-political power.

Ask yourself, Butan and Nicko:

Who created this war?

Who stole a part of a sovereign country?
(Killing at the same time any chance for negotiations, when Ukraine tried to deal with it peacefully?)

In what country were the rebel leaders intelligence officers?

Who supported and defended the rebellion?

Who created the rebellion?

.....

The answer Nicko, will tell you where your tears for civilian casualties come from.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 04, 2014, 02:50:50 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 04, 2014, 01:57:12 am
Who created this war?

USA

Who stole a part of a sovereign country?
(Killing at the same time any chance for negotiations, when Ukraine tried to deal with it peacefully?)

Russia

In what country were the rebel leaders intelligence officers?

Russia

Who supported and defended the rebellion?

Russia

Who created the rebellion?

Russia

.....

The answer Nicko, will tell you where your tears for civilian casualties come from.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 04, 2014, 02:59:43 am
Quote from: Kafein on October 03, 2014, 04:52:33 pm
The brain drain is real

Call bullshit on that concept. There is no such thing. People leave, but they get replaced.

If there was such a thing, USSR astronauts would never visit space because 30 years before Stalin killed and alienated most of intelligent and educated people. When country is weak, it suffers from lack of capable people. Strong country does not.

Real question is, how weak/strong is Russian Federation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 04, 2014, 04:07:06 am
Well I can almost agree with Leshma but

Who created this war?
Ukranian opposition of previous powers by the help of
- ambassadors of the USA, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark;
- the Assistant US Secretary of State - Victoria Nuland;
- the American senators - Chris Murphy and John McCain;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Germany - Guido Westerwelle;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Holland - Frans Timmermans;
- the High Representative of the European Union for foreign affairs and a security policy - Catherine Ashton;
- the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili;
- the europarliamentarian - Jacek Protasiewicz;
- Minister of Foreign Affairs LiNOS Linkyavichyus and speaker of the Seimas of Lithuania Loreta Grauzhinene;
- the former prime minister of Poland - Jaroslaw Kaczynski;
- senator of the Czech Republic - Yaromir Shtetina

Who stole a part of a sovereign country?
(Killing at the same time any chance for negotiations, when Ukraine tried to deal with it peacefully?)
Russia stole, no negotiations from Kiev

In what country were the rebel leaders intelligence officers?
Well I think in Russia

Who supported and defended the rebellion?
Rebels themselves with support of Russia

Who created the rebellion?
Themselves, Russia instantly started to help, majority of the rebels are russian ukranians

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 04, 2014, 04:18:53 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 04, 2014, 12:10:40 am
About the previous shells falling near a school, a nice analysis, with a lot of details: http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-227-fighting-rages-on-around-donetsk-airport/#4493 If this IS true - then morons are indeed shelling "their own side" from time to time.
well nothing about a school, about busstop this part of a rocket can be usefull to analyse who owns it. And this part seems sticks in the ground after huge explotion there, so after explotion it can stick everywhere in every direction, OSCE is not educated in that questions as I know. So need better investigation. Another video on that page is just a manipulation, so I can say that this site is not clear to believe.

President of Belorusia Lukashenko will not accept Novorussia and he is for united Ukraine
Interview of him
"But, but, when you reproach, and you have basis on this, Russia, you don't forget and about other global players  in international policy which roughly violated these laws in the world. And it began norm — to bring down a military strike on some of the countries, to destroy this country and to hang up the president. Same not Russia did. So was in Iraq, so was in Libya, so was in other states. If didn't kill the head of state, brought to a serious condition as it in Egypt occurred. That is the world became stupid, the world went crazy … And here in this context I am ready to consider and events in Ukraine, and behavior of the main players and powers that be
Therefore for a long time norms of international law are neglected. The one who is stronger is right … Same so. The United Nations was destroyed in general, it is debating club which gathers, and solves nothing, on what doesn't influence. It is abnormal. And other international organizations also don't fulfill the functional and authorized duties. And this chaos which overflowed the planet today, violations of the international standards — not Russia was the initiator of it. It is too the truth, from it you won't get to anywhere"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 04, 2014, 02:43:02 pm
Quote from: Thomek on October 04, 2014, 01:57:12 am
Who created this war?

Ukrainians


Who stole annexed a part of a sovereign country?
(Killing at the same time any chance for negotiations , when Ukraine tried to deal with it peacefully?) demonisation/angelisation

Russia


In what country were the rebel leaders intelligence officers?

More than one


Who supported and defended the rebellion?

pro-Russians and Russia


Who created the rebellion?

Ukrainians


Quote from: Thomek on October 04, 2014, 01:57:12 am
The answer Nicko(why only him, I'm jelly) will tell you where your tears for civilian casualties come from.

Answer is: pro-Russians, Russia, pro-Ukrainians and Ukraine.



Tell us your answers now  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 04, 2014, 03:48:22 pm
Ukrainians created the war? Ahahaha seriously.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 04, 2014, 06:23:19 pm
Yeah, that's a bit stupid thing to say. People don't like to fight a war on their own territory.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 04, 2014, 08:44:32 pm
Yeh, never happened in whole history. I retract my statement.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 05, 2014, 09:57:35 pm

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 08:59:30 am
Quote from: Butan on October 04, 2014, 02:43:02 pm



Tell us your answers now  :P
In what country were the rebel leaders intelligence officers?

More than one
This my french friend is called DODGING, and not a good one even. Leaders say a lot about whole movement and you just casually skipped it.

Who created this war?
Ukranian opposition of previous powers by the help of
- ambassadors of the USA, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark;
- the Assistant US Secretary of State - Victoria Nuland;
- the American senators - Chris Murphy and John McCain;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Germany - Guido Westerwelle;
- the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Holland - Frans Timmermans;
- the High Representative of the European Union for foreign affairs and a security policy - Catherine Ashton;
- the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili;
- the europarliamentarian - Jacek Protasiewicz;
- Minister of Foreign Affairs LiNOS Linkyavichyus and speaker of the Seimas of Lithuania Loreta Grauzhinene;
- the former prime minister of Poland - Jaroslaw Kaczynski;
- senator of the Czech Republic - Yaromir Shtetina
And this... "when facepalm is not enough" just is not enough  :rolleyes: . Did you forget to add russian state controlled media on porpose? And the columns of tanks, supplies? Also - only in putlers russia joining a rally which coincides with ones interests is "creating a war". This sounds like a rapers excuse "well... she dressed provocatively. Its no my fault, ok?" WHICH IS a so-so excuse still being taken into consideration in some EXTREMELY backwards shit-of-a-places on earth. russia is one of these now? AS I said - Ukraine has support of almost whole western world IN WORDS and some minority fighters in ukraines east had "NONE" support via arms, training, supplies and army by russia (and officially - russia is supporting PEACE  :shock: ). Totally comparable. Obvious even. Always "THEM".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 09:27:02 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 08:59:30 am
And this... "when facepalm is not enough" just is not enough  :rolleyes: . Did you forget to add russian state controlled media on porpose? And the columns of tanks, supplies? Also - only in putlers russia joining a rally which coincides with ones interests is "creating a war". This sounds like a rapers excuse "well... she dressed provocatively. Its no my fault, ok?" WHICH IS a so-so excuse still being taken into consideration in some EXTREMELY backwards shit-of-a-places on earth. russia is one of these now? AS I said - Ukraine has support of almost whole western world IN WORDS and some minority fighters in ukraines east had "NONE" support via arms, training, supplies and army by russia. Totally comparable. Obvious even. Always "THEM".
Kuujis at his best, the question was who started the war, not who supported rebels. Again so many letters and nothing at once. "Columns of tanks" aren't you tired to say this, no proofs, but I want to remind you that rebels captured a huge amount of ukranian armed vehicles.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 09:44:50 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 09:27:02 am
Kuujis at his best, the question was who started the war, not who supported rebels. Again so many letters and nothing at once. "Columns of tanks" aren't you tired to say this, no proofs, but I want to remind you that rebels captured a huge amount of ukranian armed vehicles.
I linked to the proofs one time too many, cba to run around every spiderpig reposting them again. You have you "list of diplomats who caused war in the east" pinned to the desktop probably, for easy copy-pasting, righ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on October 06, 2014, 09:51:47 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 09:27:02 am
Kuujis at his best, the question was who started the war, not who supported rebels. Again so many letters and nothing at once. "Columns of tanks" aren't you tired to say this, no proofs, but I want to remind you that rebels captured a huge amount of ukranian armed vehicles.
You really need to lay off the Vodka when you log in here... but that's another story.

How did the visits of foreign Diplomats create war? I sure can't remember anyone saying anything about "Let's have some juicy war down here!". What I heard was along the line "We support the democratic movement for independence..." or some other bullshit. Were those words their real intentions? Probably not. Did they bring guns? Nope. Bread and water...

Anyway...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 09:59:25 am
Quote from: Molly on October 06, 2014, 09:51:47 am
You really need to lay off the Vodka when you log in here... but that's another story.

How did the visits of foreign Diplomats create war? I sure can't remember anyone saying anything about "Let's have some juicy war down here!". What I heard was along the line "We support the democratic movement for independence..." or some other bullshit. Were those words their real intentions? Probably not. Did they bring guns? Nope. Bread and water...

Anyway...
First of all, I've never drunk any alcohol, never smoked, so destroy your stereotypes.
Easy, people with guns, crying "USA/EU with us" destroyed buildings, robbed banks, killed people without any accusation. If you think, that they didn't get money from the west for this maidan, then search better, if you ever tried to search something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 10:00:37 am
The movie of the American documentary film makers of "Maidan massacre" ("Slaughter on the Maidan") took on display in Siena a prize of spectator sympathies - "A red horse".

In the movie opinions of several experts (the professional sniper, the employee of FBI sound and still a number of interesting citizens) concerning that, from where was fired on people on Institute and who, actually, could kill "Heavenly one hundred".

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 10:12:02 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 09:59:25 am
First of all, I've never drunk any alcohol, never smoked, so destroy your stereotypes.
Easy, people with guns, crying "USA/EUrussia with us" destroyed buildings, robbed banks, killed people without any accusation. If you think, that they didn't get money and an unhealthy dose of brainwash propaganda about naztees in power (which was then and still is a lie) from the west east for this maidanartificial uprising, then search better, if you ever tried to search something.
Prove that you never drank alcohol or smoked. :P Oh, and that you are not a spiderpig.

You mean the easter ukraine unknown well trained and organized forces, who captured state building then transferring them to locals, who in their turn were led by former russian intelligence workers? Or some other

Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 10:00:37 am
The movie of the American documentary film makers of "Maidan massacre" ("Slaughter on the Maidan") took on display in Siena a prize of spectator sympathies - "A red horse".

In the movie opinions of several experts (the professional sniper, the employee of FBI sound and still a number of interesting citizens) concerning that, from where was fired on people on Institute and who, actually, could kill "Heavenly one hundred".


You know, since which part this "documentary" got a STRONK smell of bullshit? since this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=756adhtY03w#t=7. Just look at the map and tell me what's wrong  :rolleyes: It could not speak louder about financing sources and what they WANTED to show, nevermind what actually hapened.

Just because its "american" or there are "experts" - it does not make it any less potentially bullshit.

Another part of "wanting" to show what was paid for - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=756adhtY03w#t=45 - russias deal being more economically sound is I'm afraid "only in putlers russian media" (c).

Up till https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=250 - nothing about how the protestors were abused and why they started fighting back. A nice setup for finding "THE TRUTH", that its again  "THEM!"

Now this is approximately what I was waiting for, but did not expect so fast https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=530. "THEY started shooting at us",  Right sector, snipers, all claimed by a berkut officer. True story. Cannot lie. Watching further. :) Sadly - no popcorns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=697 - 30 seconds ago "we could tell there was a professional working", then later "the professional was using buckshot"... Quite consistent.

Up till https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=774 now. There were 2 brief shots of maidan protesters being shot at, which were undeniable and public as hell. Totalled maybe... 20 seconds in total? All other time "Our civilized riot police just suffer, retreat, suffer, keep order, suffer again, retreat, only carry radios, always the good, punished guys..."  Thats 1/5th of whole "documentary"... Watching on!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=1102 these are the "defending Berkut guys", who were ordered to leave the scene and who were ordered to use no firearms...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 10:19:13 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 10:12:02 am
Prove that you never drank alcohol or smoked. :P Oh, and that you are not a spiderpig.

You mean the easter ukraine unknown well trained and organized forces, who captured state building then transferring them to locals, who in their turn were led by former russian intelligence workers? Or some other

You know, since which part this "documentary" got a STRONK smell of bullshit? since this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=756adhtY03w#t=7. Just look at the map and tell me what's wrong  :rolleyes: It could not speak louder about financing sources and what they WANTED to show, nevermind what actually hapened.

Just because its "american" or there are "experts" - it does not make it any less potentially bullshit.
Nevermind Kuujis this video is not for you, this one for those who try to find the truth. Yes the map is without Crimea.

Quote from: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 10:12:02 am
Up till https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=250 - nothing about how the protestors were abused and why they started fighting back. A nice setup for finding "THE TRUTH", that its again  "THEM!"
Protesters were abused in December, this video is about how people were shot!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 06, 2014, 10:34:06 am
bah, anuran, those videos are so fucking disgusting, I don't even know where to start. At least they gave me a notion of what a fucking idiot asshole you must be IRL, Xavier Naidoo my ass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 10:42:18 am
Please Kuujis don't comment this video, it sounds so propganded from your side
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 10:53:41 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 10:42:18 am
Please Kuujis don't comment this video, it sounds so propganded from your side
Don't tell me it hurts... Do you need a napkin?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 11:03:41 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 10:53:41 am
Don't tell me it hurts... Do you need a napkin?
No, just don't want to see your narrow one-sided mind.
According to you, all people in Siena who gave a prize to this film are more stupid then you, ayeah?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 06, 2014, 11:25:19 am
Siena film festival??

http://www.siena-agriturismo.it/terradisienafilmfestival.htm (http://www.siena-agriturismo.it/terradisienafilmfestival.htm)

Lol never heard of it, but that heading is comic sans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 11:43:23 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 06, 2014, 11:25:19 am
Siena film festival??

http://www.siena-agriturismo.it/terradisienafilmfestival.htm (http://www.siena-agriturismo.it/terradisienafilmfestival.htm)

Lol never heard of it, but that heading is comic sans.
Learn it then http://www.terradisienafilmfestival.com/ no comic sans in the heading
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 06, 2014, 12:22:36 pm
So what, it's a small local meaningless festival in Italy? That means nothing.

I also had my films at obscure festivals. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 01:39:28 pm
Haters gonna hate!
It says, there is no investigation about people were shot on Maidan. Haters: this is fucking russian propoganda, lol useless festival, poor russian zombies and so on. It says shooting were made from buildings which were controlled by Maidan forces. Haters lol this russian propoganda, you morons stupid brainwashed pigs and so on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 06, 2014, 02:48:11 pm
Until there is a serious will to consider the theories around "what happened at Maidan", anyone voicing controversial thoughts will be automatically shut down by the same arguments we see here on that thread.
Thats why its ultimately easier for Maidan supporters to ignore the issues and let small NGO or political enemies (who didnt wait for their authorization anyway) with little to no backers/credits and no budget/privilege access dent their teeth on the matter, so that even if they unearth something it will not have any impact on the unconvinced masses.

Whether there is something to discover or not, on this kind of subject the truth simply cannot come out before a whole generation has passed, minimum. Less if we're lucky, more or even never and it will pass into legend if we're not. Its just human nature.
In the meantime, stop banging your head on this and go on with more recent matters  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 02:49:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 01:39:28 pm
Haters gonna hate

So a bunch of hipsters gathered and gave this "documentary" a nomination...

And then, while I watch it on the second screen, rewinding the more interesting parts...

BAM! https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=2190 - 3 shooters arrested (wohoo!), from BALTICS (OF ALL THINGS), one of them A WOMAN, hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tights . And OFC - NOONE talks about them, because its a conspiracy by ***THEM*** That was probably the final nail... :)

Although - no, this was the https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=2983 nail. Nulans voiceover of select happenings from Maidain. The same few, where rioters do what rioters do. How come the "fun" like the naked guy happened and why the people GOT enraged after being there for 3 months - whole shit-documentary does not care to show and explain. You want a documentary? Proper one would start NOT with "these are guilty", "these are not", but with trying to find motives. Of this - there were only scant mentions...

Oh, and the end https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=756adhtY03w#t=3124 - I failed to see RT there... although shots of their news cast WERE used  and I believe I recognized voice of one of their english speaking showmans... oh well... moving on.

This "documentary" is an attempt to muddle the water, which is muddy as it is. The same "it was Lithuanians shooting at Lithuanian people" during http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_%28Lithuania%29, nothing has changed, just the quality of montage. And if you actually HAD a critical eye - you would see that too.

You come here writing shit about shit ideas of which you have "proofs". Those being ... what exactly? A guy, explaining, that a bullet, after ricocheting from ground, can pass through a trunk and still have sufficient stopping power? Sniper experts failing to notice, that fucking 2 bullet burst was being used (the same closely analyzed case BTW), and still, with a straight face calling this "snipers"? Its easier than god knows what to create enormous amount of conspiracy stories in cases like these, but one should not presume to "know the truth".

Do I believe Ukrainiant investigation? No. Do I believe that there were western snipers shooting? No. Why? Because there was more than enough local and russian ones, both of which were cheaper and easier to aquire and use. Occams razor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 03:08:59 pm
again so many letters and nothing at once, what did you want to say?
My quesion is just why there is no invetigation of Maidan and Odessa. I don't make statements like you Kuujis, because I don't really know who shot there. Just some theories. Can be they true, yes they can. Can it be Russia, yes it can. So if it was Russia, 7 month later no investigation. Why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 03:16:43 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 03:08:59 pm
again so many letters and nothing at once, what did you want to say?
My quesion is just why there is no invetigation of Maidan and Odessa. I don't make statements like you Kuujis, because I don't really know who shot there. Just some theories. Can be they true, yes they can. Can it be Russia, yes it can. So if it was Russia, 7 month later no investigation. Why?
Well, there was investigation into Maidan shootings, you don't believe it fully, I don't believe it fully. You want another investigation which neither you nor I will believe fully? What will it change?

I pointed NUMEROURS places where this "documentary" stinks of the line pushed by russian state media and thus - it's imaginary "impartiality" is just that - bullshit. As to those experts - they have their oppinion, some of which also do not match with what the documentary implies. It holed as a cheese from Holland. Recognize it for what it is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 03:26:26 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 03:16:43 pm
Well, there was investigation into Maidan shootings, you don't believe it fully, I don't believe it fully. You want another investigation which neither you nor I will believe fully? What will it change?

I pointed NUMEROURS places where this "documentary" stinks of the line pushed by russian state media and thus - it's imaginary "impartiality" is just that - bullshit. As to those experts - they have their oppinion, some of which also do not match with what the documentary implies. It holed as a cheese from Holland. Recognize it for what it is.
What invetigation? I just heard that, Berkut is guilty without any proofs and investigation. You call this investigation? And about Odessa, everybody forgot about it? So many time passed and no invetsigation yet. Because of that the theory comes out that somebody doesn't want it investigated, then who? Russia, Ukraine or smbd else?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 03:54:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 03:26:26 pm
What invetigation? I just heard that, Berkut is guilty without any proofs and investigation. You call this investigation? And about Odessa, everybody forgot about it? So many time passed and no invetsigation yet. Because of that the theory comes out that somebody doesn't want it investigated, then who? Russia, Ukraine or smbd else?
Don't play dumb, you don't need to. There was an invetigation into Maidan stuff. Up to you to believe ir or not. So again - what would the Odessa investigation results change?

Its a puny red herring, when the elephant in the room is russia stirring up shit in Ukraine on a war scale.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 06, 2014, 05:04:37 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 06, 2014, 10:34:06 am
bah, anuran, those videos are so fucking disgusting, I don't even know where to start. At least they gave me a notion of what a fucking idiot asshole you must be IRL, Xavier Naidoo my ass.

Thank you for your constructive and helpful criticism.

What's your problem with the videos man?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on October 06, 2014, 05:05:36 pm
Completely out of fucks to give

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 05:11:24 pm
From the eyewitness:

Today I can't fall asleep and I won't be able probably. I graduated from school in the North and I study in Kharkov now. Sat on Petrovskogo St. at restaurant with the friend today. Everything was cheerful among themselves communicated danced, drove a round dance, all saw with each other. But approximately at half past twelve switched off music whether a disk to replace or I don't know for what purpose. 2-3 tables started shouting glory to Ukraine, Putin....., the anthem was sung which none of them plainly didn't know. Some looked at it with obvious contempt having got acquainted it became clear later that it is the guy from Stakhanov and two families from Alchevsk. Further in other part of the hall fight began people started fighting because of that that someone asked to calm down "patriotic" students, a fight began and all ran out on the street and here ATTENTION the girl have taken a table knife which was given for meat ran out on the street and cut the guy a throat, it cut a carotid. He bled profusely and died for 1,5 minute. Simply because of that that the guy most likely from Donbass also expressed against. His friend sobbing over him too in blood and did him an artificial respiration. And children from that company quickly left
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 06, 2014, 05:22:55 pm
Quote from: Umbra on October 06, 2014, 05:05:36 pm
Completely out of fucks to give


I liked the part: "if they had control of it, would they still shell it?"

Can be both used to know who controls what, and who fired where. Should convince some of the people here that still think its possible to use artillery on your own territory. It may also teach that GRAD isnt a only-russian thing.



The ceasefire has worked to reduce fighting, but didnt stop it at all, both sides still exchanging fire sporadically at best.
Will the ceasefire ever expire and "official" bigger fight begin anew? Or will it continue and progressively goes toward a real in-effect bilateral ceasefire? Time will tell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 07:01:37 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 06, 2014, 05:22:55 pm
I liked the part: "if they had control of it, would they still shell it?"
Can be both used to know who controls what, and who fired where. Should convince some of the people here that still think its possible to use artillery on your own territory. It may also teach that GRAD isnt a only-russian thing.
The ceasefire has worked to reduce fighting, but didnt stop it at all, both sides still exchanging fire sporadically at best.
Will the ceasefire ever expire and "official" bigger fight begin anew? Or will it continue and progressively goes toward a real in-effect bilateral ceasefire? Time will tell.
Check your mental faculties Butan, you suprise me. This is the same guy, who a couple of days ago was directing artillery firing at the airport (I think in this Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4d3YXHFx_Y). Now he sits (guessing from view in the video) ~500-1000 m away from the airport and is proclaiming, that "if they held it, would shell it?". IF they have a nice distant view of the airport - WHERE are they standing?  :rolleyes:

And your "both sides exchange fire" is supposed to describe separatists, who keep attacking Airport and Ukrainians, who cannot do much, but fire back, once they see something to fire at... You call this "sporadic exchange of fire at best". I call this - "rebels violating ceasfire, who know, that Ukraine cannot in its current state renew full combat operations, thus do what they want without major fears".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 06, 2014, 07:20:18 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 07:01:37 pm
Check your mental faculties Butan, you suprise me. This is the same guy, who a couple of days ago was directing artillery firing at the airport (I think in this Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4d3YXHFx_Y). Now he sits (guessing from view in the video) ~500-1000 m away from the airport and is proclaiming, that "if they held it, would shell it?". IF they have a nice distant view of the airport - WHERE are they standing?  :rolleyes:
5th of October, army of Novorussia took an airport, Ukranian TV shows that Ukranian army is still contolling the airport, showing video where airport is still with not broken windows. To disprove it rebels recorded this video to show that Novorussia controls airport now. Because of that that man said "if they held it, would shell it?" Don't get what the point where are they? kuujis what did you want to show?

Quote from: Kuujis on October 06, 2014, 07:01:37 pm
And your "both sides exchange fire" is supposed to describe separatists, who keep attacking Airport and Ukrainians, who cannot do much, but fire back, once they see something to fire at... You call this "sporadic exchange of fire at best". I call this - "rebels violating ceasfire, who know, that Ukraine cannot in its current state renew full combat operations, thus do what they want without major fears".
Fight is going only in airport now. Don't know who started to fire first, Because rebels say that ukranian army, ukranian army says that rebels, I just know that rebels made a decision to clear an airport after some civilians were killed after bombardments. But you know better Kuujis who started first.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 06, 2014, 07:58:08 pm
I meant that they do even more than fighting sporadically.

Exchanging gun fire, heavy weapon fire is one thing, exchanging artillery strike is more like full blown skirmishes  :lol:  its a weird cease fire they got down there.
And sorry but the "Rebels fired first, so we have to retaliate" only works at the first ever shot after the cease fire was applied. Afterward its only war and you can not argue that the rebels are the only ones taking the initiative.
Its been a month already so you can easily guess that they have been switching the attacker/defender mantle at least a hundred times since, trying to argue anything else is childish at best.

Quote
Check your mental faculties Butan, you suprise me. This is the same guy, who a couple of days ago was directing artillery firing at the airport (I think in this Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4d3YXHFx_Y). Now he sits (guessing from view in the video) ~500-1000 m away from the airport and is proclaiming, that "if they held it, would shell it?". IF they have a nice distant view of the airport - WHERE are they standing?  :rolleyes:

I dont know what you are trying to prove? Whether he sits directly around the airport, a few kilometers away, or in Moscow, if Ukrainian shells are landing at the airport it means that its not a Ukrainian controlled zone, because you dont fire at your own positions with artillery. Thats all there is to say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 06, 2014, 08:00:53 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 06, 2014, 07:58:08 pm
you dont fire at your own positions with artillery.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Someone got to make this thread worth reading.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 06, 2014, 08:03:19 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 06, 2014, 08:00:53 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Someone got to make this thread worth reading.

Someone just got back on this thread after a long absence it seems.
I'm basically counter-argumenting a pro-UKR position that everytime shells lands in rebel controlled territory its the rebels bombarding their own regions, which is the official Kiev point of view on any person who dies from bombardment in the Luhansk or Donetsk oblast.

On that particular local video, it was said to prove that a specific airport wasnt controlled by the Ukrainian army since they were shelling it. It is a contested zone that is often dubiously claimed as totally under control.


So yes it seems obvious to you but to others who often shares your point of view on this conflict, its not.
Thank you for your support.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 06, 2014, 08:16:51 pm
Feint! Parry! Riposte!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 06, 2014, 11:24:17 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 06, 2014, 08:03:19 pm
Someone just got back on this thread after a long absence it seems.
I'm basically counter-argumenting a pro-UKR position that everytime shells lands in rebel controlled territory its the rebels bombarding their own regions, which is the official Kiev point of view on any person who dies from bombardment in the Luhansk or Donetsk oblast.

On that particular local video, it was said to prove that a specific airport wasnt controlled by the Ukrainian army since they were shelling it. It is a contested zone that is often dubiously claimed as totally under control.


So yes it seems obvious to you but to others who often shares your point of view on this conflict, its not.
Thank you for your support.

do you even movie references
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 07, 2014, 02:02:03 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 06, 2014, 11:24:17 pm
do you even movie references

Not that one, I though you were mocking me genuinely  :P What movie?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 07, 2014, 02:41:30 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 06, 2014, 07:58:08 pm
I meant that they do even more than fighting sporadically.

Exchanging gun fire, heavy weapon fire is one thing, exchanging artillery strike is more like full blown skirmishes  :lol:  its a weird cease fire they got down there.
And sorry but the "Rebels fired first, so we have to retaliate" only works at the first ever shot after the cease fire was applied. Afterward its only war and you can not argue that the rebels are the only ones taking the initiative.
Its been a month already so you can easily guess that they have been switching the attacker/defender mantle at least a hundred times since, trying to argue anything else is childish at best.

I dont know what you are trying to prove? Whether he sits directly around the airport, a few kilometers away, or in Moscow, if Ukrainian shells are landing at the airport it means that its not a Ukrainian controlled zone, because you dont fire at your own positions with artillery. Thats all there is to say.

Have you CHECKED the shells landing at the airport, do they have "made and fired by Ukraine army" tags or something? Do you have some proofs except an opinion of some nutjob, who is acting cool about shells/rockets falling nearby, while that "nearby" is not even in/close enough to the airport to find hot shrapnels from the shells? How are those rockets/shells falling nearby the same ones which supposedly Ukrainians are firing at the airport, which is visible in the distance, but then how the explosions and hot shrapnells are falling nearby? I may have a serious case of MIND = BLOWN (too much late night work lately), but I can't understand how any of their statements should be trustworthy or even worth considering seriously... They have occupied the airport numerous times already... nothing new there.

Also - there are Ukrainians on defense, there are nutjobs as the one in the video on the offense. Which of them keep something up and which are defending, because their leadership does not allow any significant counter-action? If it was "we attacked, got repelled, than attacked again, got repelled..." - then it is ONE side breaking truce, not both. I understand the rebels are butt-hurt at not being able to do anything serious without direct involvement of russian army and not hiding behind civilians, but still, it does not automatically mean, that both sides are guilty of violating truce. Or is this logic somehow different from where you are looking?

Meanwhile in Crimea - http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/crimean-tatars-disappear-nineteen-now-missing-since-russian-takeover. See DonNicko? Being a minority group in Crimea is totally awesome, just like Tatarstan...

Meanwhile in russia-proper: http://www.france24.com/en/20141007-russian-entrepreneurs-vote-with-feet-troubles-mount/

Oh, and this special thing here for our russian readers: http://by24.org/2014/10/06/russian_song_about_putin_recognized_as_old_german_chocolate chip cookie_anthem/ CBA to translate, read with difficulties myself. Only one thought after this remains: you rub on others what you yourself smell like... :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 07, 2014, 04:06:25 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 07, 2014, 02:02:03 pm
Not that one, I though you were mocking me genuinely  :P What movie?

One that got released in 1958 and only made it through the French censor in 1975.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 07, 2014, 04:17:56 pm
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050825/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 07, 2014, 04:56:42 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 07, 2014, 04:06:25 pm
One that got released in 1958 and only made it through the French censor in 1975.

Snobism much?  :rolleyes:

And is that movie supposed to argue that Donetsk rebels are possibly shelling their own city because they refuse to fight? I would really love to hear you develop your thoughts, but we both know you wont except a little snarky remark? That was just out of context nit-picking like I first supposed?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 07, 2014, 06:16:21 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 07, 2014, 04:56:42 pm
Snobism much?  :rolleyes:

And is that movie supposed to argue that Donetsk rebels are possibly shelling their own city because they refuse to fight? I would really love to hear you develop your thoughts, but we both know you wont except a little snarky remark? That was just out of context nit-picking like I first supposed?

Well of course it was. This issue doesn't really interest me. At any rate I don't know who is "more" responsible between those shelling civilians and those using civilians as human shields. Even supposing an answer was somehow found and agreed on, that wouldn't solve anything.

Also it's pretty much the first Kubrick, watch it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 07, 2014, 08:42:56 pm
http://www.economonitor.com/dolanecon/2014/10/07/the-economic-future-if-any-of-novorossiya/

interesting end idea:
If the region threatens to turn against Russia or descends  into chaos as winter comes, Putin might be faced with an unpalatable choice. He could make a humiliating geopolitical retreat and leave Kiev to deal with the economic and political problems of a shattered Donbas, or he could plunge forward, completing the Novorossiya land bridge to Crimea and formally incorporating the region into Russia regardless of the cost. The last chapter of this saga has not yet been written.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 08, 2014, 01:43:06 pm
Special for DonNicko - about russian troops not present in Ukraine: http://www.interpretermag.com/russian-news-site-rbc-investigates-russian-troop-units-deployed-in-ukraine/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 08, 2014, 09:36:25 pm
new election in parliament
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 10, 2014, 11:20:05 am
To the pro DNR imbeciles in this thread.


Please, whine more about Maidan, and fascists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 10, 2014, 11:43:01 am
Quote from: Christo on October 10, 2014, 11:20:05 am
Please, whine more about Maidan, and fascists.
Please wash your hands more carefully and abstains from butt sex at least in near future even if your mate insisting  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 10, 2014, 11:44:18 am
tryhard rus troll, so funny.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 10, 2014, 11:48:29 am
Quote from: Christo on October 10, 2014, 11:44:18 am
tryhard rus troll, so funny.
and do not let him pee on your face  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 10, 2014, 11:52:08 am
Don't make me report you to russian authorities  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 10, 2014, 12:21:26 pm
So... who wants Putin assassinated? I'm taking both c-RPG gold and real gold aka Euros. It will be done on October 16th (need to plan it before I give correct time). Please contact me via PM and prepare large sums of both c-RPG gold (we're talking quadrillions) or few hudred million euros.

Handle: Gavrilo Princip
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 10, 2014, 03:06:32 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 10, 2014, 12:21:26 pm
It will be done on October 16th (need to plan it before I give correct time).


You will not pass Vovka's elite bodyguard team!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 10, 2014, 03:19:51 pm
But they my frends, komrads, we drink vodka before, we have fun... they drunk after and Putin alone :lol:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 10, 2014, 03:41:04 pm
As long as russians are fed and watered - they will be proper sheeps and won't support you :) Also - I would skip traveling to russia nao, if I were you!

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-to-import-crocodile-meat-to-replace-sanctioned-pork-beef/509165.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 10, 2014, 03:58:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 10, 2014, 03:41:04 pm
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-to-import-crocodile-meat-to-replace-sanctioned-pork-beef/509165.html

Yummy.

Another reason to immigrate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 10, 2014, 04:12:02 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 10, 2014, 03:41:04 pm
As long as russians are fed and watered - they will be proper sheeps and won't support you :) Also - I would skip traveling to russia nao, if I were you!

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-to-import-crocodile-meat-to-replace-sanctioned-pork-beef/509165.html
WOW, where can I buy crocodile meat?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 10, 2014, 04:30:26 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 10, 2014, 03:41:04 pm
As long as russians are fed and watered - they will be proper sheeps and won't support you :) Also - I would skip traveling to russia nao, if I were you!

Who is traveling to Russia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 10, 2014, 04:58:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 10, 2014, 04:12:02 pm
WOW, where can I buy crocodile meat?
At the same shop where prices have fallen, since the food import ban ;)

Quote from: Leshma on October 10, 2014, 04:30:26 pm
Who is traveling to Russia?
Didn't you kind of suggest... you know to have some intimate .... DEALINGS with putler? With support and vodka and (litteral) shit? Shurely you don't expect him to come to YOU? Or do you need some more peace-maker forces in the balkans (this time from russia with love - so to speak :) )?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 10, 2014, 05:35:48 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 10, 2014, 12:21:26 pm
So... who wants Putin assassinated?

What would that solve? Their entire government and large sum of population is filled with pissed off at random stuff nationalist barbarians. They'l just vote another "great leader" or political party that actively keeps repeating how ruling Russia needs a "strong hand" and it isnt for filthy girlish westerntype politicians. They'l just vote the guy who has the biggest chesthair, yells the loudest and swings his battleaxe around the most. Cause thats just how russians are. I think the partial reason why they cant get in sync with the rest of the modern world is cause they just do things differently over there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 10, 2014, 06:07:34 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 10, 2014, 04:30:26 pm
Who is traveling to Russia?

Noone, especially not the brain-drained intellectuals!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on October 10, 2014, 09:18:20 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 10, 2014, 09:27:06 pm
Quote from: Yarl on October 10, 2014, 09:18:20 pm
(click to show/hide)
You could at least write this in Engrish, if english is too hard... :)

As to "pribaltic rusophobes"... ofc the problem is in THEM, never russia itself...  Good luck and FU  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 10, 2014, 09:48:36 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 10, 2014, 09:27:06 pm
As to "pribaltic rusophobes"... ofc the problem is in THEM, never russia itself...  Good luck and FU  :rolleyes:

There is no problem, only solutions: annex the baltic states into Russia! At least the russophobics would have newfound arguments that doesnt date back to USSR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 10, 2014, 10:11:35 pm
This easternpop I actually like, since it is mostly ABBA.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 10, 2014, 10:39:37 pm
All this talk of russophobes is interesting. Tell me, am I a russophobe?

From my experience Russians are rather Westernphobes.. I got "Americhan Gho Chome! after me several times when I was in Kaliningrad. (While speaking english.. ) Za co kurwa.

Anyway, just another bad excuse so Russians can feel special and hated and hate ze west even more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 10, 2014, 10:42:42 pm
Well it's easier to say "russofob cykabljat", than to take a look in the mirror and actually realize WHY they are like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tom Cruise on October 10, 2014, 11:12:07 pm
This thread is 469 pages long. Holy shit. I don't even know what's happening in this war/peace/ceasefire/war again thing. All I know is I equally hate Russkies and Ukrainians because both of you autists infest my dota 2 games.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on October 11, 2014, 12:20:19 am
Quote from: Tom Cruise on October 10, 2014, 11:12:07 pm
This thread is 469 pages long. Holy shit. I don't even know what's happening in this war/peace/ceasefire/war again thing. All I know is I equally hate Russkies and Ukrainians because both of you autists infest my dota 2 games.

Dota for pussies


@Nicko
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 11, 2014, 12:24:18 am
Quote from: Yarl on October 11, 2014, 12:20:19 am
Dota for pussies

That makes russians pussies  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on October 11, 2014, 12:34:47 am
Quote from: Christo on October 11, 2014, 12:24:18 am
That makes russians pussies  :mrgreen:
Not all russians play dota.
only who can't fight a bear on the street
so yeah they are pussies,  but still better than you on dota  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: stukii on October 11, 2014, 04:10:53 am

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 11, 2014, 04:26:38 am
Basically he fed up being pro-american, so he went to work with RT instead.

Fucking genius.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 11, 2014, 04:46:04 am
He isnt working for RT, he was interviewed by RT. A media that isnt shy with anti-american stuff  :mrgreen:
Maybe they will give him a job soon? That would be a nice spoil of war: dat guy isnt a newbie journalist!

You quick-draw so fast you forgot arguments Christo!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 11, 2014, 04:50:10 am
I can actually bear to read the articles on RT, as opposed to the poor journalism and tits everywhere on infotainment western news sites like The Daily Fail and Faux News.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 11, 2014, 05:27:08 am
Quote from: Butan on October 11, 2014, 04:46:04 am
He isnt working for RT, he was interviewed by RT. A media that isnt shy with anti-american stuff  :mrgreen:
Maybe they will give him a job soon? That would be a nice spoil of war: dat guy isnt a newbie journalist!

You quick-draw so fast you forgot arguments Christo!

I wrote 'working with', not 'working for'

You quick-draw so fast, you forgot the meaning of words le Buton!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on October 11, 2014, 10:04:43 am
and some background information.
german link, because the russian and english sites are not that comprehensive.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Ulfkotte

short summary:
christened, later atheist, then islamic and now christian again.
he has studied politics, criminology and islamic studies.
later he has worked for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, section - foreign politics, mainliy in islamic countries.
in 2004 there was some trouble with public authorities, suspicion of breach of secrecy, but the accusation was put down.
two years later ulf was one of the founders of Pax Europa, a rightwing, maily antiislamic, party.
in 2008 he laft the party again, because it has become too radical, after all he is still politically active for the antiislamic movement.

former colleagues describe him as a "bunter hund" that means "colourful character" and has not always a positive touch. others see him more as a tale-teller.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 11, 2014, 11:49:50 am
Quote from: Butan on October 10, 2014, 09:48:36 pm
There is no problem, only solutions: annex the baltic states into Russia! At least the russophobics would have newfound arguments that doesnt date back to USSR.
Really? Dates back to USSR? I applaud you trying to play neutral, but its kinda obvious your central european brain doesnt know jack about the subject. We gave you pretty solid explanations on how its not simple russophobia and they really are agressive shitlords with pretty solid statements and evidence and you are all like: "they must have a good reason, it could be bullshit". FFS they themselves have very openly admitted being agressive shitlords for no reason, multiple times. Why the hell are you even still arguing about this? Majority of their population even knows that. Do you have a reading disability or are you just trolling?

It always amuses whenever russian diplomats bitch about something. Their fighter jets and bombers basically "get lost" into their neibhouring countries airspace practically 50 times a year. And when some countries fishingboat really gets lost in their waters, they are all like "How dare you, you filth! This is clearly provocation! Dread lightly, Russia must protect itself!" But thats hardly news.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 11, 2014, 02:00:06 pm
You're mixing my opinion with several others in your post, its hard to know if you want to start a debate with someone here or just interested to hammer your "pretty solid" facts while dribbling on your keyboard.
Still a very good pamphlet, would read again if I hadnt 100x already.

The more I read that thread, the more I understand russian stoicism on anti-russianism.
The best we can work out of this is jokes and facepalm, when not trying to talk with the one-sided specialists.


Quote from: Christo on October 11, 2014, 05:27:08 am
I wrote 'working with', not 'working for'

You quick-draw so fast, you forgot the meaning of words le Buton!

How does talking with someone equals to working with someone? Hide behind your "with" as much as you want, its obvious you tried to make him look like "he is with Russian Today, he is a witch! burn him with fire!"  :lol:  Dont blame yourself, its only natural.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Erzengel on October 11, 2014, 02:24:47 pm
Quote from: Mala on October 11, 2014, 10:04:43 am
and some background information.
german link, because the russian and english sites are not that comprehensive.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Ulfkotte

short summary:
christened, later atheist, then islamic and now christian again.
he has studied politics, criminology and islamic studies.
later he has worked for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, section - foreign politics, mainliy in islamic countries.
in 2004 there was some trouble with public authorities, suspicion of breach of secrecy, but the accusation was put down.
two years later ulf was one of the founders of Pax Europa, a rightwing, maily antiislamic, party.
in 2008 he laft the party again, because it has become too radical, after all he is still politically active for the antiislamic movement.

former colleagues describe him as a "bunter hund" that means "colourful character" and has not always a positive touch. others see him more as a tale-teller.

I can confirm this. Ulfkotte is a complete weirdo... Not worth listening to his shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 11, 2014, 04:52:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 11, 2014, 02:00:06 pm
The more I read that thread, the more I understand russian stoicism on anti-russianism.
The best we can work out of this is jokes and facepalm, when not trying to talk with the one-sided specialists.
They are only stoics over the internet and our tiny community doesnt have those angry retards. As in like I said, you dont understand and you wont learn anything from this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 11, 2014, 04:57:25 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 11, 2014, 04:52:33 pm
They are only stoics over the internet and our tiny community doesnt have those angry retards. As in like I said, you dont understand and you wont learn anything from this thread.

Occifer, forgib me for stepping out of line again, but it seems that we keep spending too much time devoting 400+ pages to this trollsy shit instead of improving/adding to the game this board is supposedly about
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 11, 2014, 05:20:24 pm
This thread serves as a vent for certain individuals. Has a purpose imho. If you think it brings negativity on the table and not much else, don't blame the posters. They do what they like to do, its on moderation to allow or stop such behavior.

People who spend considerable amount of time posting, like me, don't care that much about the mod this forum is dedicated to.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 11, 2014, 05:23:33 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 11, 2014, 05:20:24 pm
People who spend considerable amount of time posting, like me, don't care that much about the mod this forum is dedicated to.

Who does, when you get right down to it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 11, 2014, 05:34:41 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 11, 2014, 02:00:06 pm
How does talking with someone equals to working with someone? Hide behind your "with" as much as you want, its obvious you tried to make him look like "he is with Russian Today, he is a witch! burn him with fire!"  :lol:  Dont blame yourself, its only natural.

Failing at english again.

I'm not hiding behind anything, in fact you are the one who openly acknowledges he doesn't know what words mean.

That is natural too, of course.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 12:36:50 pm
How mainstream medias get their "informations" :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 12, 2014, 01:29:50 pm
Putin ordered his troops on the Russian-Ukrainian border back. He fulfilled this demand of Kiev and the West. And on October 17 Putin and Poroshenko will probably meet in Mailand. I wonder if some more sanctions will still be imposed...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 12, 2014, 02:08:24 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 12:36:50 pm
How mainstream medias get their "informations" :

Theres just one massive problem with this, mr Tovi. I dont belive this horseshit. One main reason why: If he wanted to speak the "truth", he could have gone to better mediachannels than RT news, which itself has proven to be full of shit. He could have gone to Wikileaks or something, theres plenty of actually independent news in Europe, Russia and US that would gladly accept true accurate anti-west stories/evidence. If you have delicate anti-west evidence, sure, go to Russia, but dont tell about it in such a place like RT news, which basically has been proven to be shit, by everyone on planet Earth. Few people who watch it, watch it, cause its funny. Like FOX news.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 12, 2014, 02:19:39 pm
Just found this

A guy asking that Givi or Gibi guy to cheer up at the end... priceless  :rolleyes:

Oh, and a relevant anecdote:
Putin "Order the men to march home"

Military leader "OK boys drive home"

Putin "No I said march, they leave the equipment there"

Military leader "But what if those sticky finger separatists find them"

Putin "Its all good we were on break"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 12, 2014, 03:25:09 pm
Quote from: Christo on October 11, 2014, 05:34:41 pm
Failing at english again.

I'm not hiding behind anything, in fact you are the one who openly acknowledges he doesn't know what words mean.

That is natural too, of course.


You win at semantics, but you lose at intellectual honesty.
You should work with RT :P


Quote from: Tibe on October 11, 2014, 04:52:33 pm
They are only stoics over the internet and our tiny community doesnt have those angry retards. As in like I said, you dont understand and you wont learn anything from this thread.

This is a pretty solid fact that Russians are tough and used to be bullied. They themselves have very openly admitted not caring about your repetitive shitposting, multiple times. Why the hell are you even still arguing about this? Majority of us knows that. Do you have a reading disability or are you just trolling?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 12, 2014, 03:32:12 pm

Victoria Nuland: "I think Jaz is the guy."

Victoria Nuland and Jeffrey Payette talking about the next steps in Ukraine (goes to 4:10).

After the phone call, there is a phone call in German of Helga Schmid (member of the administrative board of the European External Action Service) and Jan Tombinski (EU-ambassador in Ukraine).
Schmid is complaining about the Americans calling the EU too soft concerning sanctions and a heavy confrontation with Russia and wants Tombinski to talk to a US-ambassador to tell him that the EU is doing it more secretly to be more effective. "There shouldn't be a race [about the heavier confrontation] but it's unfair that they [the Americans] say such things [the EU is too soft]." says Schmid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 12, 2014, 04:10:06 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 12, 2014, 03:25:09 pm
This is a pretty solid fact that Russians are tough and used to be bullied. They themselves have very openly admitted not caring about your repetitive shitposting, multiple times. Why the hell are you even still arguing about this? Majority of us knows that. Do you have a reading disability or are you just trolling?
Well its not a solid fact. Your claim was entirely your opinion, which you admitted, was based around this thread, which is basically this tiny community, where I think most russians cant just speak english well enough to debate. Ivan tried it for a little bit, he couldnt handle it, too much info gone in translation, too much time wasted. Mine was based on my actual experiences and ideas and assumptions which are also influenced by statements of multiple(relatively truthful, as far as politicians go) politicians from varing countries, who have dealed with Russia for years and are dealing with them on a daily bases.

Might sound like a dick, but in this subject my opinion is superior to yours, like im pretty sure your opinon on France is superior to mine. And for some time it will be like that. Nice counterargument btw, but it made 0 sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 07:09:33 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 12, 2014, 02:08:24 pm
Theres just one massive problem with this, mr Tovi. I dont belive this horseshit. One main reason why: If he wanted to speak the "truth", he could have gone to better mediachannels than RT news, which itself has proven to be full of shit. He could have gone to Wikileaks or something, theres plenty of actually independent news in Europe, Russia and US that would gladly accept true accurate anti-west stories/evidence. If you have delicate anti-west evidence, sure, go to Russia, but dont tell about it in such a place like RT news, which basically has been proven to be shit, by everyone on planet Earth. Few people who watch it, watch it, cause its funny. Like FOX news.

The problem is that you just don't know who is Udo Ulfkotte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Ulfkotte).
If you read german you can read his book here : http://www.amazon.de/Gekaufte-Journalisten-Udo-Ulfkotte/dp/3864451434
So, now you can trust RT and stop your stupid racism against anything coming from Russia. Because this racism is US propaganda. Believe it or not, you are under influence.

If you just think about it, you will under understand why he can speaks on RT and not on Fox News or CNN.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 12, 2014, 07:41:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 07:09:33 pm
The problem is that you just don't know who is Udo Ulfkotte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Ulfkotte).
If you read german you can read his book here : http://www.amazon.de/Gekaufte-Journalisten-Udo-Ulfkotte/dp/3864451434
So, now you can trust RT and stop your stupid racism against anything coming from Russia. Because this racism is US propaganda. Believe it or not, you are under influence.

If you just think about it, you will under understand why he can speaks on RT and not on Fox News or CNN.

Learn to read. I clearly stated its RT news thats shit, not everything thats from Russia and I already stated that Fox News and CNN is also shit. And using the words "So, now you can trust RT", clearly means you are the dumbest person ever. Im pretty sure even most of the russians are laughing at that one, since its just that wrong. RT is russian version of Fox News.

Why do you think a person like Snowden, a person who undeniably actually had solid extremely confidential anti-american evidence and IS LIVING IN RUSSIA, for instance didnt give shit to RT, but gave his information to independent journalists, where it came aware to the entire public? Thats because he cares about the actual truth and people who do dont touch shit like RT with a 10 foot pole. People who go to RT dont care about the truth, they just wanna be famous. And its idiots like you Tovi, that belive everything anti-western. If you dont question things like that than you are the one under influence. You are exactly as bad as extreme pro-government propaganda listeners, exept you wear a slightly different color and think yourself better informed.

 But we've been over this by now and nothing sticks. So why do I bother...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 08:11:19 pm
My post was not about RT but about  Udo Ulfkotte. And all you can say is " baaaa, RT is shit". Without any proof, because, obviously, RT is actually the only media to give voice to this journalist.
Where is your logic ?   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on October 12, 2014, 08:11:28 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 07:09:33 pm
The problem is that you just don't know why Russia is the biggest threat to European people and US is our saviour.
So, now you can trust CNN and stop your stupid racism against anything coming from US. Because this racism is Russian propaganda. Believe it or not, you are under influence.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I see what you did there. Nice edit Tovi. As I've said, it's a pity that you became pro-american, seriously, I had a much better opinion about you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2014, 08:11:37 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 07:09:33 pm
The problem is that you just don't know who is Udo Ulfkotte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Ulfkotte).
If you read german you can read his book here : http://www.amazon.de/Gekaufte-Journalisten-Udo-Ulfkotte/dp/3864451434
So, now you can trust RT and stop your stupid racism against anything coming from Russia. Because this racism is US propaganda. Believe it or not, you are under influence.

If you just think about it, you will under understand why he can speaks on RT and not on Fox News or CNN.

He is the same kind of moron like you, only on television
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 12, 2014, 08:18:17 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 08:11:19 pm
My post was not about RT but about  Udo Ulfkotte. And all you can say is " baaaa, RT is shit". Without any proof, because, obviously, RT is actually the only media to give voice to this journalist.
Where is your logic ?   :rolleyes:
Lets see: there is an idiot and only shit-news-channel like RT gives him air-time. Why is it so... indeed... why... THERE is your logic  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 08:40:55 pm
The career of this "idiot" is much more interesting than yours.
My logic is : when the wise man shows the Moon, I look to the Moon, not to the finger.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2014, 08:53:00 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 10, 2014, 05:11:43 pm
Everything gonna be alright boys, and God Bless America ! I ban myself from this thread. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 09:06:21 pm
Quote from: Christo on October 12, 2014, 08:53:00 pm


I'm too good with ya.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2014, 09:39:00 pm
No, you are a fucking imbecile who doesn't keep his word.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on October 12, 2014, 09:56:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 12, 2014, 08:40:55 pm
The career of this "idiot" is much more interesting than yours.
My logic is : when the wise man shows the Moon, I look to the Moon, not to the finger.

When the wise man "shows you the moon" you better look on the finger.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Also. You should add this video to your signature, would explain everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDii69YCh_Q (can't attach it, darn forum)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 12, 2014, 10:14:42 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 12, 2014, 07:41:50 pm
I clearly stated its RT news thats shit, not everything thats from Russia
Just interesting what TV video do you use to see from Russia to have opinion of both sides? Or you don't?

To refresh the topic:
I think that if I would be on the place of the president of Ukraine and the most powerfull country with the most advanced spy technology said that they have direct prooves that russian troops invaded Donbass, I would defenitely made the same, meens ATO. But after several mounthes of direct prooves which didn't appear and 3.5 k people were killed because of that, to say that you made a mistake very hard. Poroshenko now in very difficult sittuation, a lot of money were spent to this war. Cities were destroyed and seems that Kiev will repair them. Seems that there a lot of bad things from both sides, killings, robbings and so on. On Ukrainian TV I see video which blames russian separatists, which doesn't show full picture, russian TV shows video, where they blame current government, national guard and right sector, which doesn't show full picture too. Too many fakes from both sides. Don't know about western TV.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 12, 2014, 10:50:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 12, 2014, 10:14:42 pm
On Ukrainian TV I see video which blames russian separatists, which doesn't show full picture, russian TV shows video, where they blame current government, national guard and right sector, which doesn't show full picture too. Too many fakes from both sides. Don't know about western TV.

German media usually blame the rebels in eastern Ukraine or Russia. They completely ignored the airstrike on Lugansk for example, maybe because of too much evidence that the Ukrainian airforce was guilty... It's pretty much like Kiev/the West/EU/NATO/USA is the good one and the rebels/Russia are the bad ones.
However, the internet breaks this interpretational sovereignty and that's a thorn in certain decision makers' sides...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2014, 10:50:16 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 12, 2014, 10:14:42 pm
Just interesting what TV video do you use to see from Russia to have opinion of both sides? Or you don't?.

Since your dear leader bans all opposition media, nothing now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 12, 2014, 10:59:53 pm
Quote from: Christo on October 12, 2014, 10:50:16 pm
Since your dear leader bans all opposition media, nothing now.
So you don't have opinion of both sides and try to be objective? Or you don't?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 12, 2014, 11:34:32 pm
Ask Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 12, 2014, 11:41:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 12, 2014, 10:14:42 pm
russian TV shows video, where they blame current government, national guard and right sector, which doesn't show full picture too. Too many fakes from both sides. Don't know about western TV.

Ukraine TV just as bad of course. It is a propaganda WAR going on. And a real one, between the two countries.. Besides both sides in the media have similar attitudes towards truth rooted in their culture.  :rolleyes:  (from soviet times)

Media on both sides are an instrument of war. Ukraine doesn't have other option. If they would be truthful, balanced, and careful about unknowns, they would be shot to pieces by blatant lying russian media, who see themselves as soldiers in this war. There is no room for honest journalism.

Western media are slightly better, since you can find both sides reflected, although the vast majority is pro-ukraine.

What can we do as consumers of media? Use our brains, add 2+2. Pick reasonably trustworthy information out from the stream and discard the rest.

To me, it is long ago obvious that this is a war engineered by Putin alone, afraid to loose his puppet state.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 12:02:33 am
Since we are talking about media...
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-media-professor-haag-dubious-credentials/26632541.html

And Don - mind game for you:assume that truth is 0, there is an oppinon in west media that its +5, oppinion in russian media that its -50, "listening and semi-trusting" to both sides, gives you average -22,5, which leaves you so deep in russian bullshit, that its not even funny.

Same with putlers strategy in Ukraine. Annex Crimea, cause ANOTHER bullshit, then retreat from it acting as if "see? I made concessions, not remove those damn sanctions, because my oligarchs feel like shit that they are". Elephant in the room is that everyone should assume that Crimeas question is "resolved".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 13, 2014, 12:25:33 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 12:02:33 am
assume that truth is 0, there is an oppinon in west media that its +5, oppinion in russian media that its -50, "listening and semi-trusting" to both sides, gives you average -22,5, which leaves you so deep in russian bullshit, that its not even funny.

Assuming that truth is 1, and everything else is 0, who cares how amateurish or professional looking lies are?

I prefer medias which are too dumb to be believed, like Fox News and Russia Today. I prefer a profoundly biased media to smart political propagandist: the first will, at worst, convince the most stupid on earth, at best entertain the rest; the later will give you information that you want to believe in, and emprison your mind for the rest of your life.


Do you think russians widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Europe? I dont think so, even Vovka and other russians said multiple times...

Do I believe europeans widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Russia? Yes.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 13, 2014, 12:47:03 am
Quote from: Butan on October 13, 2014, 12:25:33 am
Do I believe europeans widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Russia? Yes.

But rapidly declining tendency. There is at least a very small thought about another big war at the back of the peoples' minds slowly coming in. You know, veeeery slowly the masses seem to figure out what's really going on. I notice that in my own environment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 13, 2014, 02:02:03 am
Quote from: Butan on October 13, 2014, 12:25:33 am
Do you think russians widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Europe? I dont think so, even Vovka and other russians said multiple times...

They hate the west without the media already enough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 13, 2014, 05:34:40 am
Quote from: Christo on October 13, 2014, 02:02:03 am
They hate the west without the media already enough.
:lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 13, 2014, 06:01:00 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 12, 2014, 11:41:04 pm
To me, it is long ago obvious that this is a war engineered by Putin alone, afraid to loose his puppet state.
So you think that maidan revolution also made by Putin? As I remember when Yanukovich met with EU to discuss about joining, Russia asked EU to be on this discussions to consult about current agreements with Russia. EU answered it's not your business. Ok, Russia gave to Ukraine better conditions that EU offered. But then revolution came. When Timoshenko was freed, she claimed that Crimea must be freed from russian sea troops. Well politically there were 2 problems. Well Crimea were taken. About East Ukraine where all production is based and good for trade must be taken, I think Putin didn't expect this ATO. Son of Baiden is a director of one firm which has a gas foundations on the East. So after some visits of Baiden and USA generals ATO begins. As I said before, my opinion is that this is political game between Russia and USA. According to statements of NATO and secretaries of USA, there are a lot of fake statements, maybe much more or the same as in Russia. So if EU media is +5 then they have to disprove this statements of USA and Nato.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 08:43:11 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 13, 2014, 06:01:00 am
So you think that maidan revolution also made by Putin? As I remember when Yanukovich met with EU to discuss about joining, Russia asked EU to be on this discussions to consult about current agreements with Russia. EU answered it's not your business. Ok, Russia gave to Ukraine better conditions that EU offered. But then revolution came. When Timoshenko was freed, she claimed that Crimea must be freed from russian sea troops. Well politically there were 2 problems. Well Crimea were taken. About East Ukraine where all production is based and good for trade must be taken, I think Putin didn't expect this ATO. Son of Baiden is a director of one firm which has a gas foundations on the East. So after some visits of Baiden and USA generals ATO begins. As I said before, my opinion is that this is political game between Russia and USA. According to statements of NATO and secretaries of USA, there are a lot of fake statements, maybe much more or the same as in Russia. So if EU media is +5 then they have to disprove this statements of USA and Nato.
1. WHAT THE FUCK is russias business what ANOTHER country wants to do? Join EU, join NATO, become anti-russia: ITS SIMPLY NOT rUSSIAS BUSINESS. You presume it is, but it is simply NOT the case. Being butthurt is what russia is in this case, what with all its delusions of grandeur. And to hell with what russia asked or promised, it simply lies too much these days.
2. How do you go from "supporting Maidan" to "being guilty of inciting civil war and annexing part of Ukraine" is beyond me. Its simply... for the lack of better expression "only in putlers russian media" (c) that it is natural, self evident or obvious. Pulling out some semi-related names is an attempt to pin label "dried ham" on some fly-ridden carcass in the middle of siberia.
3. I loved the "well, Crimea was taken". You forgot to add "suck it up and trust us again nao, plzkthxbai". Elephant in the room is here, now please move on, nothing to see here.
4. "fake statements" and all that jazz - I would say you have these in Ukraine press, which is only natural (what with all the propaganda BS). Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report. And if they report on "twitter" stuff or hearsay - they say it as it is, i.e. "based on unconfirmed sources" etc. You assume, that because your media is so full of shit, ALL worlds media is the same. Which is simply not the case.

This is actually the case of  "trustworthiness" of your media sources, assuming 0 is the "trustworthy": you have your russian sources, with -50 in score, and your western ones, which lets say are -5. Now you paint all media as -27.5, which is again - only if you trust or semi-trust ANYTHING coming out of russia. What you COULD and SHOULD learn from russian media is what are they AIMING for with this reporting, and not what they are actually reporting. This is a good material.

And their "reporting" has led to annexation of Crimea and artificial civil war in eastern ukraine (which btw, with 50% industry destroyed WAS a manufacturing center, not anymore).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 13, 2014, 02:47:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 08:43:11 am
1. WHAT THE FUCK is russias business what ANOTHER country wants to do? Join EU, join NATO, become anti-russia: ITS SIMPLY NOT rUSSIAS BUSINESS. You presume it is, but it is simply NOT the case. Being butthurt is what russia is in this case, what with all its delusions of grandeur. And to hell with what russia asked or promised, it simply lies too much these days.

DonNicko said Russia wanted to be in the discussion. Russia could have been in the game and compromises could have been made between everyone involved. You can do it the easy way, or the hard way. "The hard way it is? Ok then." This could sum up the whole Ukraine affair.

At the time of the discussions it was more about economics than politics, but as Maidan showed, the question of the economical agreements between Ukraine and Europe/Russia became a political/ethical choice.
Yanukovitch was corrupted, but during his mandate he kept a certain balance between the two bipolar forces of this world: west and east. Now it has been completely replaced in favor of one side through civilian unrest, and the country itself is paying the brutality of the change, whether its totally Russia's fault or totally Ukraine's fault or both. As in all revolutions, there is hard times ahead and a adaptation phase where many things will be lost.


Quote from: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 08:43:11 am
2. How do you go from "supporting Maidan" to "being guilty of inciting civil war and annexing part of Ukraine" is beyond me.

Supporting Maidan was exactly the same as supporting Eastern unrest at its civilian desobeissance phase. The comparison stop here, you are right.


Quote from: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 08:43:11 am
3. I loved the "well, Crimea was taken". You forgot to add "suck it up and trust us again nao, plzkthxbai". Elephant in the room is here, now please move on, nothing to see here.

Except for the obviously rigged results, the annexation of Crimea was so perfectly done that its going to be hard convincing everyone that "it needs to be re-taken".
Even if there was a new real referendum now, I doubt the population would say no to being a part of the Russian Federation, thanks to the current propaganda from both sides, which works to reinforce nationalism and territorialism.

So now its only a case of does Ukraine really want that land, and can? There's as much historical/nationalistic reasons that both Russia and Ukraine wants it... That would be a bloody mess.



Not much to say on 4., except on the "Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report" which is a very nice but too crude  to be believed angelisation of a corrupted system which is the global medias of today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 13, 2014, 03:26:14 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 08:43:11 am
4. "fake statements" and all that jazz - I would say you have these in Ukraine press, which is only natural (what with all the propaganda BS). Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report. And if they report on "twitter" stuff or hearsay - they say it as it is, i.e. "based on unconfirmed sources" etc. You assume, that because your media is so full of shit, ALL worlds media is the same. Which is simply not the case.
Well I don't watch russian TV, just some channels a little, and what I watched was like "according to the statement of smb and so on". I didn't see that russian TV blamed president Poroshenko, most of blames were to right sector like 80% of video.
Also I don't watch western TV, just saw some programs with fake statements. Not many. And as I said a lot of fake information on the USA briefings made by Psaki and her assistent. Also Rasmussen.
About Crimea in the place of Poroshenko I would make a new referendum with foreign watchers, but I think it won't help anyhow. People will choose Russia again, maybe less %. It will work if Ukraine will reach EU economics and Crimea people will see that it is much better to live in Ukraine. But it will take many years, because I think that EU will just use ukranian market like new consumers. So all domestic production will die later.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 13, 2014, 06:57:54 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 13, 2014, 08:43:11 am
1. WHAT THE FUCK is russias business what ANOTHER country wants to do? Join EU, join NATO, become anti-russia: ITS SIMPLY NOT rUSSIAS BUSINESS. You presume it is, but it is simply NOT the case. Being butthurt is what russia is in this case, what with all its delusions of grandeur. And to hell with what russia asked or promised, it simply lies too much these days.



Quote from: Anuran on October 12, 2014, 03:32:12 pm

Victoria Nuland: "I think Jaz is the guy."

Victoria Nuland and Jeffrey Payette talking about the next steps in Ukraine (goes to 4:10).

After the phone call, there is a phone call in German of Helga Schmid (member of the administrative board of the European External Action Service) and Jan Tombinski (EU-ambassador in Ukraine).
Schmid is complaining about the Americans calling the EU too soft concerning sanctions and a heavy confrontation with Russia and wants Tombinski to talk to a US-ambassador to tell him that the EU is doing it more secretly to be more effective. "There shouldn't be a race [about the heavier confrontation] but it's unfair that they [the Americans] say such things [the EU is too soft]." says Schmid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 13, 2014, 09:20:45 pm
Christo and Kujjis try to desperatly defend their positions. But we all know the truth now about Ukraine. The true Maidan revolution is defended by Novorossia, not by fascists and oligarchs of the West.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 13, 2014, 09:25:08 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 13, 2014, 09:20:45 pm
Christo and Kujjis try to desperatly defend their positions. But we all know the truth now about Ukraine. The true Maidan revolution is defended by Novorossia, not by fascists and oligarchs of the West.

Seriously? Look the retard is trying to act all high and mighty now.

Silence yourself. Preferably commit suicide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on October 13, 2014, 10:06:03 pm
"We"? Either Tovi is adopting a different strategy or is becoming delusional.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 13, 2014, 10:59:55 pm
Quote from: Anuran on October 13, 2014, 12:47:03 am
But rapidly declining tendency. There is at least a very small thought about another big war at the back of the peoples' minds slowly coming in. You know, veeeery slowly the masses seem to figure out what's really going on. I notice that in my own environment.

The only thing I notice is people getting more and more receivable for conspiracy theories and less able to differentiate between the different media and contents they get presented and instead of seeing the complexity of things just make up their own truth. Which right now in germany seems go well with an incredible charitableness with Putin's and his fellow's actions.



also tovi just shut up or answer to the holes I showed in your 'argumentation' (or whatever you wanna call it) in the Iraq thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 13, 2014, 11:25:55 pm
Quote from: Christo on October 12, 2014, 09:39:00 pm
No, you are a fucking imbecile who doesn't keep his word.

I may be an imbecile, but I receive massive informations about what is really happening in Ukraine and about Daesh. You are probably more intelligent thanme but if you receive fake informations, your judgement will be wrong. Right ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 14, 2014, 12:33:34 am
if
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 14, 2014, 01:26:18 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 14, 2014, 02:20:52 am
Quote from: Tovi on October 13, 2014, 11:25:55 pm
I may be an imbecile, but I receive massive informations about what is really happening in Ukraine and about Daesh. You are probably more intelligent thanme but if you receive fake informations, your judgement will be wrong. Right ?

Yeah, 'massive' is correct.

Massive loads of bullshit is what you are receiving. One just has to randomly hit up your post history and prepare for a facedesk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 14, 2014, 08:35:33 am
Quote from: Tovi on October 13, 2014, 11:25:55 pm
I may be an imbecile, but I receive massive informations about what is really happening in Ukraine and about Daesh. You are probably more intelligent thanme but if you receive fake informations, your judgement will be wrong. Right ?

Just a quick point Tovi. The reason most crap you read about isn't reported by the Real News is not part of a conspiracy. Its that news organizations require multiple confirmations of authenticity, and have rigorous fact-checking departments to investigate and pursue stories. Many driven journalists, putting their safety and lives on the line in pursuit of the truth and a desire to expose lies, crimes, or basic inhumanity, have toppled governments, started or ended wars, and changed tons of lives.

The random shit you post, is basically all going to be unverified trash with anonymous sources, or demonstrably controlled by government agencies. And places like Russia, Egypt, Iran, etc have pathetically harsh treatment of dissident journalists for the very fact that a free press is the only way to a free society.

Al-Jazeera seems to be a legitimate news outlet that many of us read internationally that isn't so Western-centric, even though it is of course ultimately owned by Qatar. How many articles do they have corroborating the RT version of foreign affairs, where every, single, thing, is the fault of America/CIA/whatever, and anyone geopolitically opposed to American interests are blameless victims in neverending plots of aggression? 

Like dude, reality is nuanced, over 6 billion people in the world and everyone has their own reasons and motivations for doing things, but in ur reality its like every single person are pawns in some CIA/Zionist conspiracy, and if 2 people have opposing views, one is a puppet of enemy propaganda, the other is 100 percent right in all ways.

Do you honestly think in a war like in Ukraine, there isn't just maybe the fact that "war is shit" and people end up doing terrible things for terrible reasons? Like, everyone will agree that shelling civilian-filled city centers or w/e by Ukraine is terrible. Yet there are people who would disagree with even the basic FACT that Russia gleefully provides equipment and training to the separatists, is in control of all peace negations on the "separatist" side, regularly lobs artillery over their border, so on and so forth, helping to perpetuate the circumstances that makes Ukraine decide that their best options are to shell enemy positions.

Like I can understand debating WHY Russia feels the need to defend its interests in Ukraine the way they are, and thinking they did the right thing in seizing Crimea, attempting to subjugate Ukraine, feeling hostile to NATO, etc. But when you deny basic facts that have countless, basically endless, cross and counter-checked sources of evidence, you aren't having a conversation or able to change anyone's minds about anything. You look like an ignorant fuckhead who believes the first thing someone tells them, for no reason, except your own prejudice.

Being from NJ and watching 9/11 happen IRL and the impact it had on everyone who lives in that area, I hold special annoyance at dirtbag conspiracy theorists, who trivialize reality at the expense of Young Adult Novel level storytelling of Good and Bad guys. Do you even think.. before you decide what to think? Its more like you just agree, instead of think. Its what drives ppl crazy about you or those like you. It is *~YOU~* who is really the blind sheepish fool, Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
Quote from: Tovi on October 13, 2014, 09:20:45 pm
Christo and Kujjis try to desperatly defend their positions. But we all know the truth now about Ukraine. The true Maidan revolution is defended by Novorossia, not by fascists and oligarchs of the West.
Begging acceptance by the others, assuming being RIGHT, being part of "WE ALL"... so touching. I had a tear in me left eye... due to an onion.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/understanding-the-crisis-in-ukraine,35435/
http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/

@Anuran - so some political actress has an oppinion and supports one guy over the other. This is proof of... what exactly? That US incited the rebellion in the east, sham referendum in Crimea?

Quote from: DonNicko on October 13, 2014, 03:26:14 pm
Well I don't watch russian TV, just some channels a little, and what I watched was like "according to the statement of smb and so on". I didn't see that russian TV blamed president Poroshenko, most of blames were to right sector like 80% of video.
Also I don't watch western TV, just saw some programs with fake statements. Not many. And as I said a lot of fake information on the USA briefings made by Psaki and her assistent. Also Rasmussen.
About Crimea in the place of Poroshenko I would make a new referendum with foreign watchers, but I think it won't help anyhow. People will choose Russia again, maybe less %. It will work if Ukraine will reach EU economics and Crimea people will see that it is much better to live in Ukraine. But it will take many years, because I think that EU will just use ukranian market like new consumers. So all domestic production will die later.
You watch one news "a little". Those same news, watched NOT a little 6 months (roughly) ago started calling Ukrainian government naztees, junta and made russian-news watching sheeple population of Crimea + eastern Ukraine (well, at least sufficient part of it) so afraid, that they were willing to accept russian ex-intelligence officers as their "freedom movement leaders". Or well, they in fact had not much choice, since those punks just grabbet all the weapons they could find and then were given some more by russians. So thats one "news" source you have.
And you dont;t watch western TV, just the select mistakes that your "little" watched news choose to share I guess.
Thusly - you choose to compare both medias and judge their reliability... riiiiiiiiiight. I rest my case here.

As to regions with local majority of big neighboring country ... lets call them "friends" suddenly voting for their independence is not taken seriously. The reasons basically sum up to NOT repeating mistakes, which were made in the wake of WW2.

Quote from: Butan on October 13, 2014, 02:47:41 pm
DonNicko said Russia wanted to be in the discussion. Russia could have been in the game and compromises could have been made between everyone involved. You can do it the easy way, or the hard way. "The hard way it is? Ok then." This could sum up the whole Ukraine affair.

At the time of the discussions it was more about economics than politics, but as Maidan showed, the question of the economical agreements between Ukraine and Europe/Russia became a political/ethical choice.
Yanukovitch was corrupted, but during his mandate he kept a certain balance between the two bipolar forces of this world: west and east. Now it has been completely replaced in favor of one side through civilian unrest, and the country itself is paying the brutality of the change, whether its totally Russia's fault or totally Ukraine's fault or both. As in all revolutions, there is hard times ahead and a adaptation phase where many things will be lost.
You know, if russia AT LEAST PRETENDED to act in the interests of Ukraine, or did not shat left and right on international agreements - it might be worth talking with on the level you expect/propose. However - there is one sad thing, that only a VERY small minority in the west are willing to admit - russia will talk, only if it has a SIGNIFICANT upper hand and can raep you left and right OR when it has not much other choice. In the first case - not talking is sometimes better, in the second choice... well, it happened with China recently, what with all the gas deals (if you can call this a "deal", when even the price was not agreed upon  :rolleyes: ) Ukraine is NOT in this situation and it chose to talk with the EU. Why should it invite russia?
I understand your reasoning, i.e. how butthurt russia basically means, that its neighbors have to bee butthurt too, but I do not support this attitude of russians and I think people that DO support this behavior are basically one step from supporting rape, because object of attraction married someone else.

Quote from: Butan on October 13, 2014, 02:47:41 pm
Supporting Maidan was exactly the same as supporting Eastern unrest at its civilian desobeissance phase. The comparison stop here, you are right.
So you choose an artificial period of time, during which one side was having a mixed bunch of oppinions, and the other side began concentrated anti-maidan attacks in the media, to which Ukrainian people were VERY succeptible and russian owners of their media KNEW it. We could argue about it being "the same", but lets agree to disagree on this, CBA to continue :)
I would still look at the big picture, not an isolated one...
And in that "bigger picture" I can already see all the Ukrainian forces with bunch of NATO armament supplies, mecenaries and special forces winning and pushing back the almost lost battle. True story. NOT.
Support for Maidan was by words, promise of economic benefits in the future and an idea how to move away from corrupt past to much less corrupt western way of living.
Support for eastern Ukraine civil war was shameless brainwashing with kid cruficitions and other artificial stories, coupled with training, arming and commanding local "rebels", which according to pre-war pools were not even in the majority in the said regions. Plus - annexation of Crimea, which everyone treats as an invisible elephant in the room (GOD I started to like this comparison :mrgreen: )

Quote from: Butan on October 13, 2014, 02:47:41 pm
Except for the obviously rigged results, the annexation of Crimea was so perfectly done that its going to be hard convincing everyone that "it needs to be re-taken".
Even if there was a new real referendum now, I doubt the population would say no to being a part of the Russian Federation, thanks to the current propaganda from both sides, which works to reinforce nationalism and territorialism.

So now its only a case of does Ukraine really want that land, and can? There's as much historical/nationalistic reasons that both Russia and Ukraine wants it... That would be a bloody mess.
On this - I can only concede. The best Ukraine can do is clean its shit up (its been done before, e.g. Polant, Baltic states), and then see how all those "we live well" russians and belorussians CLOG shopping malls in towns near borders. Man... fucking PUBLIC ANOUNCEMENTS in Vilnius shopping malls are given in 3 languages: russia, Belorussian and Lithuanian. Why the fuck do they drive in their shiney cars 500km for shopping  - I have no clue  :rolleyes: But it feels good. And this is what Ukraine has to do, if it wants Crimea back. Key is that Crimea wanted that and that russias internal support for bullshit creating government was low. Both of these ARE possible, given 20-30 years window.

Quote from: Butan on October 13, 2014, 02:47:41 pm
Not much to say on 4., except on the "Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report" which is a very nice but too crude  to be believed angelisation of a corrupted system which is the global medias of today.
I'm not angelising... There is so much sut and bullshit there, that one has to be an idiot to believe it wholeheartedly, but key is that if you have 3 or 5 conflicting reports about the same event - you CAN more or less figure out truth. Plus - I can find you BUNCH of retractions, apologies or even court sentences which are results of actions taken to remedy the mistakes of wester press (given, that we are not talking about fox news and similar shit), but find me ANYTHING like that for the bogus stories of RT, or LifeNews, or any other mainstream russian news outlet (removing a story does not count  :rolleyes: ). Hell - national news-agency TASS is using some CREATED german professors to create artificial support for russia, which is then in turn appreciated by russian consumers, who get the hope "at least SOME in the west understand us"... well... its NOT true. Umomu rossyu neponiat - as one of their commercials say (roughly - "you can't understand russia with intelligence/mind")

/end of wall of text :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 14, 2014, 09:43:04 am
Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
Man... fucking PUBLIC ANOUNCEMENTS in Vilnius shopping malls are given in 3 languages: russia, Belorussian and Lithuanian. Why the fuck do they drive in their shiney cars 500km for shopping  - I have no clue
We drive in Vilnus not for shopping , in Vilnius shopping malls we need only condoms  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 09:57:22 am
Quote from: Vovka on October 14, 2014, 09:43:04 am
We drive in Vilnus not for shopping , in Vilnius shopping malls we need only condoms  :)
Good to know that ... And asking for tax-free condoms... you don't forget that either, aye?  :rolleyes:

You basterds... using our roads, our sidewalks and then skimming on paying taxes on condoms :(

See? Total proof of russian abuse of its neighbors. Tovi! Can't you see it?!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 14, 2014, 11:50:58 am
Smoothrich putting that much effort in response to anything Tovi writes is a complete waste of time. He's a literal 9/11 truther, a decade after Loose Change. Anything that is nuanced or reasoned will slide off his dumb, vapid brain like water on a duck's back.

US= Omniscient and omnipotent, nothing on the planet happens unless it is pre-approved and planned out by shadowy CIA figures sitting in smokefilled rooms, advised by the ever present zionists of course. Anything that accords with this fantasy = truth. Anything that contradicts this fantasy = lol sheeple obvious propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 14, 2014, 12:00:38 pm
Quote from: Vovka on October 14, 2014, 09:43:04 am
We drive in Vilnus not for shopping , in Vilnius shopping malls we need only condoms  :)

That's rich, coming from the country hemmoraging prostitutes and hookers all over Europe. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on October 14, 2014, 12:04:40 pm
http://i.imgur.com/HQ1x2ZA.mp4
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on October 14, 2014, 12:35:04 pm
Already got you covered Vibe-o  :D

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on October 14, 2014, 03:03:08 pm
D:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 14, 2014, 03:11:01 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
So you choose an artificial period of time

I compare what is comparable  :)
Unrest at Maidan and unrest in eastern Ukraine had the same beginnings.


Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
Support for Maidan was by words, promise of economic benefits in the future and an idea how to move away from corrupt past to much less corrupt western way of living.
Support for eastern Ukraine civil war was shameless brainwashing with kid cruficitions and other artificial stories, coupled with training, arming and commanding local "rebels", which according to pre-war pools were not even in the majority in the said regions. Plus - annexation of Crimea, which everyone treats as an invisible elephant in the room (GOD I started to like this comparison :mrgreen: )

Again angelisation of Maidan, and demonization of eastern unrest, comparing two period of time where there is no comparison: demonstration at Maidan which successfully sacked the government without having to go into a military phase, and eastern unrest which failed to do so and continued the fight with the bearing of arms.

I admire your zeal and flowery declarations   :P


Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
You know, if russia AT LEAST PRETENDED to act in the interests of Ukraine, or did not shat left and right on international agreements - it might be worth talking with on the level you expect/propose.

Which international agreements you speak of? Direct me to a pre-Maidan Russian shitting over anything related to Ukraine. Except if you consider out betting Europe over the economical pacts, shitting over international agreements.
Or do you again want to compare uncomparable periods of time?  :)




Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
Quote from: Butan
Not much to say on 4., except on the "Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report" which is a very nice but too crude  to be believed angelisation of a corrupted system which is the global medias of today.
I'm not angelising... There is so much sut and bullshit there, that one has to be an idiot to believe it wholeheartedly, but key is that if you have 3 or 5 conflicting reports about the same event - you CAN more or less figure out truth. Plus - I can find you BUNCH of retractions, apologies or even court sentences which are results of actions taken to remedy the mistakes of wester press (given, that we are not talking about fox news and similar shit), but find me ANYTHING like that for the bogus stories of RT, or LifeNews, or any other mainstream russian news outlet (removing a story does not count  :rolleyes: ).

Having non mainstream medias, which have a minor influence and impact on the people, doing reports which do not go everytime into the direction ===> RUSSIA = EVIL, does not equal to a proper, serious, cross-examined press.
The western reality is that we have been sucking at the tits of anti-russianism for ages, much before Ukraine broke, even before Georgia-Russia war, that we are all ready to accept that it is the simple truth. I can tell you this, I have been living in France all my life, and am old enough to know that.
Each time I see the face of Putin on my screen, its with subtle (sometimes not so subtles) comments/subtitles which all goes together with: tyrant, warmonger, dishounorable scum, kills innocents and support evil around the world!
(of course there is those who will think "Is this guy implying its not ABSOLUTE TRUTH? OMG! He is a madman!", I have never been seriously trying to discuss with this kind of people)


The few time I heard something different on a french media, its only in two very derisory scenarios:

- one is, we invite pro-Russian people to talk, but they are very unjustly and harsly interviewed, journalists around only pretend to listen to them but never debate anything and prefer to show their ethical superiority
- other one is, like I said previously, only weird/strange unknown medias will shed a positive light on Russia, mostly USSR lovers which are equally uninterested to debate seriously, and noone takes them seriously anyway so it has absolutely no impact on the public opinion

I am not proud of my press choices!...


I dont know Russia medias properly enough, I cant say if its the same down there, but in reverse (everyone says EUROPE = EVIL, few minor medias says something else), but I wouldnt be surprised at all its a comparable state of opinion balance.
The one thing I saw is that Russian medias are way more brunt and tactless about propaganda, thus its way easier to not accept it. Those who does are terribly fanatical supporters which will never bow down to reason.



TL;DR FUNNY PART:

Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
Why the fuck do they drive in their shiney cars 500km for shopping  - I have no clue  :rolleyes:

Why not, you want a iron curtain between Europe and Russia to stop people from shopping? Go to Ukraine and start building then!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 14, 2014, 03:50:02 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 14, 2014, 08:35:33 am
Just a quick point Tovi. The reason most crap you read about isn't reported by the Real News is not part of a conspiracy. Its that news organizations require multiple confirmations of authenticity, and have rigorous fact-checking departments to investigate and pursue stories. Many driven journalists, putting their safety and lives on the line in pursuit of the truth and a desire to expose lies, crimes, or basic inhumanity, have toppled governments, started or ended wars, and changed tons of lives.

The random shit you post, is basically all going to be unverified trash with anonymous sources, or demonstrably controlled by government agencies. And places like Russia, Egypt, Iran, etc have pathetically harsh treatment of dissident journalists for the very fact that a free press is the only way to a free society.

Al-Jazeera seems to be a legitimate news outlet that many of us read internationally that isn't so Western-centric, even though it is of course ultimately owned by Qatar. How many articles do they have corroborating the RT version of foreign affairs, where every, single, thing, is the fault of America/CIA/whatever, and anyone geopolitically opposed to American interests are blameless victims in neverending plots of aggression? 

Like dude, reality is nuanced, over 6 billion people in the world and everyone has their own reasons and motivations for doing things, but in ur reality its like every single person are pawns in some CIA/Zionist conspiracy, and if 2 people have opposing views, one is a puppet of enemy propaganda, the other is 100 percent right in all ways.

Do you honestly think in a war like in Ukraine, there isn't just maybe the fact that "war is shit" and people end up doing terrible things for terrible reasons? Like, everyone will agree that shelling civilian-filled city centers or w/e by Ukraine is terrible. Yet there are people who would disagree with even the basic FACT that Russia gleefully provides equipment and training to the separatists, is in control of all peace negations on the "separatist" side, regularly lobs artillery over their border, so on and so forth, helping to perpetuate the circumstances that makes Ukraine decide that their best options are to shell enemy positions.

Like I can understand debating WHY Russia feels the need to defend its interests in Ukraine the way they are, and thinking they did the right thing in seizing Crimea, attempting to subjugate Ukraine, feeling hostile to NATO, etc. But when you deny basic facts that have countless, basically endless, cross and counter-checked sources of evidence, you aren't having a conversation or able to change anyone's minds about anything. You look like an ignorant fuckhead who believes the first thing someone tells them, for no reason, except your own prejudice.

Being from NJ and watching 9/11 happen IRL and the impact it had on everyone who lives in that area, I hold special annoyance at dirtbag conspiracy theorists, who trivialize reality at the expense of Young Adult Novel level storytelling of Good and Bad guys. Do you even think.. before you decide what to think? Its more like you just agree, instead of think. Its what drives ppl crazy about you or those like you. It is *~YOU~* who is really the blind sheepish fool, Tovi.

I believe what I see. And when I see a fascist or an islamist, I don't say it's a freedom fighter. You can believe your medias, wich have proven many times saying constantly bullshit. I will continue to trust my sources, wich are constantly right and much more serious than a journalist who can't even place a city on a map.
All I was able to read in this thread from pro-NATO are things like "Putin is devil, Putin is the new einstein blabla", exaqctly the same shit than in westerner newspapers. Not the begining of a real information. Because, obviously, you live in a dream, the US Dream, wich doesn't need any fact, but just a massive approbation of the majority.

And, of course Russia defends its interests in Ukraine. Why not ? The question is why EU/US and NATO tried to destabilize this country by funding dissents since years. And they do it in Russia too. The day you'll understand why the West is doing this, you'll understand why countries like Russia, China and Iran need to defend themselves, and why they will create a coalition against the US global hegemony.
I don't live in this world :
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 14, 2014, 04:14:34 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
You watch one news "a little". Those same news, watched NOT a little 6 months (roughly) ago started calling Ukrainian government naztees, junta and made russian-news watching sheeple population of Crimea + eastern Ukraine (well, at least sufficient part of it) so afraid, that they were willing to accept russian ex-intelligence officers as their "freedom movement leaders". Or well, they in fact had not much choice, since those punks just grabbet all the weapons they could find and then were given some more by russians. So thats one "news" source you have.
And you dont;t watch western TV, just the select mistakes that your "little" watched news choose to share I guess.
Thusly - you choose to compare both medias and judge their reliability... riiiiiiiiiight. I rest my case here.

As to regions with local majority of big neighboring country ... lets call them "friends" suddenly voting for their independence is not taken seriously. The reasons basically sum up to NOT repeating mistakes, which were made in the wake of WW2.
It is hard to understand what really you wanted to say. Because so many unlogical statements.
Well, Russian media if you watched it (I think no) didn't call ukranian government as natzi, they showed people ukranian or russian who called that government natzi or junta. And they called Svoboda and right sector extreme radical, maybe sometimes natzi.
Why some people call government natzi, I think because they try to make Stepan Bandera a hero of the Ukraine. On 22 January 2010, the outgoing President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.[4] The award was condemned by European Parliament, Russian, Polish and Jewish organizations[5][6][7][8] and was declared illegal by the following Ukrainian government and a court decision in April 2010. In January 2011, the award was officially annulled. Now they try to make him a hero again. On this video we see that 217 from 231 deputies who voted in parliament agreed to make Bandera a hero. But it is not enough for quorum, need 226. but there a lot of people didn't appear to vote, just because they were pushed from parliament.
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Ask polish and belarus people who is this Bandera, if you don't know and watch about Khatyn massacre. Maybe because of that some people call them natzi, as I know western media keep silence about this.
After this today when this voting didn't pass because of quorum tadam:
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Svoboda and right sector and some others made this. Don't know if western TV will show it.
It's like to make Stalin a hero, but we all know that he was the same as H itler.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 14, 2014, 05:09:43 pm
EU/US destabilizing Ukraine.. lol

NGO's and peaceful support. Yes. Polonium poisoning presidents, annexing parts of the country, Fixing elections/propaganding through russian TV, waging a proxy war inside Ukraine.. Not.

Bandera..

Because of Russia's meddling with and manipulating Ukr internal affairs on all levels through the last 500 years or so, a certain anti-russia (not russians so much)sentiment has of course grown. RS/Svoboda, the Bandera hype is a symptom of that. Just nationalism growing under oppression. If Russia would allow Ukraine true independence, none of that would exist, and I'm sure Ukraine would have a much more relaxed relation to RF as well.

I would think if germany ran huge campaigns as to who'm the next president of France would be, poisoning your prez etc.. , a certain anti-german sentiment would re-grow in France as well..

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on October 14, 2014, 05:16:12 pm
Quote
Ask polish and belarus people who is this Bandera, if you don't know and watch about Khatyn massacre.

Although I hate all politicians who try to hide current problems and earn some ratings by bringing this topic and therefore further destabilize situation, can you tell me what Bandera has to do with Khatyn?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 14, 2014, 05:28:28 pm
Quote from: serr on October 14, 2014, 05:16:12 pm
Although I hate all politicians who try to hide current problems and earn some ratings by bringing this topic and therefore further destabilize situation, can you tell me what Bandera has to do with Khatyn?
Bandera himself nothing. What do you think of him?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on October 14, 2014, 07:20:27 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 14, 2014, 05:28:28 pm
Bandera himself nothing. What do you think of him?

I don't care. Obviously he and his followers were either assholes or simply nationalistic retards who caused many deaths, but most other glorified heroes of different nations were alike.
UPA weren't naz is or fascists, but they weren't good guys either and they did some horrible ethnic cleansings, mostly against Poles. But now that's history and I really hate that it interferes with nowadays life.
I don't make difference between Bandera's glorifiers and haters. You may consider him a great hero or a horrible fiend and I will shake your hand, but only as long as you don't try to impose your opinion and attack those who don't agree with you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 14, 2014, 07:42:57 pm
Quote from: serr on October 14, 2014, 07:20:27 pm
I don't care. Obviously he and his followers were either assholes or simply nationalistic retards who caused many deaths, but most other glorified heroes of different nations were alike.
UPA weren't naz is or fascists, but they weren't good guys either and they did some horrible ethnic cleansings, mostly against Poles. But now that's history and I really hate that it interferes with nowadays life.
I don't make difference between Bandera's glorifiers and haters. You may consider him a great hero or a horrible fiend and I will shake your hand, but only as long as you don't try to impose your opinion and attack those who don't agree with you.
Yes, I agree that you don't have any moral advances to atack people who disagree with you. Just for me Bandera is like Stalin. And I can't get why ukranian parliament want to make him a hero.
Serr, can you say what do you think what association with the European Union will give to Ukraine, economically and so on.
Just for fun on russian and ukranian
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on October 14, 2014, 08:12:09 pm
Quote
Yes, I agree that you don't have any moral advances to atack people who disagree with you. Just for me Bandera is like Stalin. And I can't get why ukranian parliament want to make him a hero.
It is very simple. Svoboda has lost most of their support - both because of stupid freaks like Farion and Miroshnychenko and because of passiveness of other, more moderate members.
Freaks discouraged moderate part of their electorate and lack of action - radical retards that will now vote for Lyashko. Parliament elections will be in 2 weeks and I doubt they will even pass 5% barrier. Polls say they will likely get around 3%. So, they decided to play their favourite "Bandera is our hero" card to return at least some of support they lost.

Quote
Serr, can you say what association with the European Union will give to Ukraine, economically and so on.
It would require really long wall of text to answer in details, but in short - better laws in various spheres, open trade, which will likely kill half of our industry, but in long term will attract investments and probably create conditions for growth. And, probably, more important, it may open doors for other agreements, closer cooperation in different spheres and, I really hope, some control over our politicians and courts.

However, it's not something we think a lot about these days. I think with recent events most ukrainians even forgot we signed that deal. More important questions are if we'll survive the winter and when and how the war will continue.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 14, 2014, 08:14:29 pm
Just listen to Victoria Nuland. She admited the role of the US during Maidan and others "Orange" revolutions.
What is quite surprinsing for someone of my generation is the way yours (the 2000's) seems brainwashed. I've built my political consciousness in the 90's and it was common to admit than most governments were always lying, and few medias were trustfull. Most of the time we should receive the official informations. We did not believe it but we had no choice, not much different source of information. We were more sceptical and the concept of "conspiracy theory" did not exist.
Today, you MUST believe what your government says. If not, you are a conspiracy theorist (or a victim of it). Most medias (mainstream) have been bought by financial and industrial groups and they just repeat what politicians says.
I can recognize a young brainwashed of the 2000's when its only argument is "that conspiracy theory". This concept is propaganda. Because you don't even know what a conspiracy is. It's a little group of people trying to seize power (like Free Masons during french or american revolutions for exemple). Today, when a goverment lie, you must close your mouth or be a "terrorist" or a "conspiracy theorist". The Power always lie. It doesn't need to plot against its own people. It always has been this way.
Today we have access to a different information than official propaganda. But I don't see any conspiracy, only constant lies from the same little olygarchy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 14, 2014, 08:17:34 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 14, 2014, 08:14:29 pm
What is quite surprinsing for someone of my generation is the way yours (the 2000's) seems brainwashed.

 :lol:

2000's kids are 14 year old at best, you senile idiot.

Also those times of yours are not valid anymore. Try to keep up with the world, things have changed in two decades, you know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 14, 2014, 08:29:26 pm
Quote from: Christo on October 14, 2014, 08:17:34 pm
:lol:

2000's kids are 14 year old at best, you senile idiot.

Also those times of yours are not valid anymore. Try to keep up with the world, things have changed in two decades, you know.

You are stupid. As I consider myself a 90's generation because I was 20 during the 90's. I watched the wars of Yugoslavia and the first war in Iraq with the only western background informations. But I knew a part of the realty because I talked with some people who delivered french weapons to Croatians with the help of the french government. I'd like to have internet at this time to better understand the situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 14, 2014, 08:32:01 pm
Quote from: serr on October 14, 2014, 08:12:09 pm
More important questions are if we'll survive the winter and when and how the war will continue.
I thought that Ukraine and Russia agreed on gas, if Ukraine will pay 2 billions till the end of October. For me is a question how ukranians and russians will contact, when I was in Kiev I really liked this town and people in it. I think the most good-natured people are in Belarus, then in Ukraine and then in Russia. Just how people react on russians in Ukraine now, will it soft relationship again?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 14, 2014, 08:33:05 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 14, 2014, 08:14:29 pm
Today we have access to a different information than official propaganda. But I don't see any conspiracy, only constant lies from the same little olygarchy.
Yet, you somehow belive the words of idiots (and very questionably people/sources) so blindly. You just basically switched one liar for the other liar, cause you are afraid of the shadows and imaging monsters who aren't even there. Its okay not to belive the western media crap, but please dont make hardly believable conclusions in your head and call them facts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 14, 2014, 08:39:06 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 14, 2014, 08:29:26 pm
You are stupid. As I consider myself a 90's generation because I was 20 during the 90's

Somebody tell him how generations work
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on October 14, 2014, 08:46:14 pm
Seeing as how his comprehension in other matters goes, i doubt it's worth the effort.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 14, 2014, 11:44:17 pm
Quote from: Christo on October 14, 2014, 08:39:06 pm
Somebody tell him how generations work

Generations are an illusion fabricated by western propaganda
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 12:02:14 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 13, 2014, 10:59:55 pm
The only thing I notice is people getting more and more receivable for conspiracy theories and less able to differentiate between the different media and contents they get presented and instead of seeing the complexity of things just make up their own truth. Which right now in germany seems go well with an incredible charitableness with Putin's and his fellow's actions.

„Conspiracy theory“… Is that meant to be an insult? However, I don’t see how Putin’s and “his fellow’s” actions make the German population less able to differentiate between the different media… German media mainly are indistinguishable already. If not forced into line…

By the way, I still got a question you didn’t answer yet.
Quote from: Anuran on October 06, 2014, 05:04:37 pm
Thank you for your constructive and helpful criticism.

What's your problem with the videos man?



Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
@Anuran - so some political actress has an oppinion and supports one guy over the other. This is proof of... what exactly?

Wow, are you serious? You didn’t really pay attention to what they said. I also don’t talk to my neighbor and tell him about Merkel that she should call Obama 3 times a day and that the German finance minister should better become the foreign minister. I don’t say that to my neighbor for nothing.
Payette to Nuland: “[…] so I think you reaching out di­rect­ly to him helps with the personality management among the three and it gives you also a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it be­fore they all sit down and he explains why he doesn’t like it.”


Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
You know, if russia AT LEAST PRETENDED to act in the interests of Ukraine, or did not shat left and right on international agreements - it might be worth talking with on the level you expect/propose. However - there is one sad thing, that only a VERY small minority in the west are willing to admit - russia will talk, only if it has a SIGNIFICANT upper hand and can raep you left and right OR when it has not much other choice. In the first case - not talking is sometimes better, in the second choice... well, it happened with China recently, what with all the gas deals (if you can call this a "deal", when even the price was not agreed upon  :rolleyes: ) Ukraine is NOT in this situation and it chose to talk with the EU. Why should it invite russia?
I understand your reasoning, i.e. how butthurt russia basically means, that its neighbors have to bee butthurt too, but I do not support this attitude of russians and I think people that DO support this behavior are basically one step from supporting rape, because object of attraction married someone else.

Putin proposed a peace plan and he recently pulled back his troops on Ukrainian border. Ukraine did not pay its gas bills and is highly in debt. I also don’t get why you talk about “rape” coming from Russian side. There was an association agreement made some time ago and a Russia-correspondent of ARD with yearslong experience has said that this agreement would tear the Ukraine apart. And that, I quote, “we, the media, HAD to know and tell this”. This agreement was made between the EU and Ukraine as far as I remember. It was definitely not made between Russia and Ukraine. So who is raping here. “Not talking is sometimes better”, well, in this case it is definitely NOT better. Tell eastern Ukrainian civilians that it’s better if the West doesn’t talk to Russia.



Quote from: Kuujis on October 14, 2014, 08:53:32 am
Hell - national news-agency TASS is using some CREATED german professors to create artificial support for russia, which is then in turn appreciated by russian consumers

- Incubator-lie
- Iraq’s WMDs
For example.


Another thing concerning Udo Ulfkotte: He has published a book called “bought off journalists – how politicians, intelligence agencies and the high finance control Germany’s mass media” (“Gekaufte Journalisten – Wie Politiker, Geheimdienste und Hochfinanz Deutschlands Massenmedien lenken”) and it seems to be really really good. I don’t have it (yet?) so I don’t know what’s written inside, I can only assume the main point. It’s also said that journalists who publish an article about this book might get fired… When a Dutch journalist called FAZ (where Ulfkotte worked for years) and asked FAZ for a statement concerning the book. But they just don’t give a comment on the book. They just keep quiet collectively. His book must contain too much truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 15, 2014, 12:14:01 am
Quote from: Kafein on October 14, 2014, 11:44:17 pm
Generations are an illusion fabricated by western propaganda

ahahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 15, 2014, 05:46:05 am
Quote from: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 12:02:14 am
Another thing concerning Udo Ulfkotte: He has published a book called “bought off journalists – how politicians, intelligence agencies and the high finance control Germany’s mass media” (“Gekaufte Journalisten – Wie Politiker, Geheimdienste und Hochfinanz Deutschlands Massenmedien lenken”) and it seems to be really really good. I don’t have it (yet?) so I don’t know what’s written inside, I can only assume the main point. It’s also said that journalists who publish an article about this book might get fired… When a Dutch journalist called FAZ (where Ulfkotte worked for years) and asked FAZ for a statement concerning the book. But they just don’t give a comment on the book. They just keep quiet collectively. His book must contain too much truth.

Mybe its banned cause its such load of bullshit, not truth. Like for example, quite many russian TV channels, that have been made by the sole reason of propaganda and claim to inpict "truth" are basically banned in the Baltics. Not really cause its so true, its banned, but rather its so insultingly not, that anyone beliving this crap is clearly so easy to manipulate with by eastern bullshit media that he/she could become a potential threat to a certain foreign government for bullshit made-up reasons.

But I digress, I dont know enough about Udo to discredit him, but im just saying, banned status and collective silence about a piece of litterature that claims to tell "the truth" about Western lies, may not be related to the fact that its true, but rather to the fact that its just not. Cause Russia at this point is so desperate to seek dirt on the West, that im quite confident they are throwing huge piles of cash at everyone who have some degree of credibility and are willing to sell themselves out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 15, 2014, 06:57:17 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 14, 2014, 08:33:05 pm
Yet, you somehow belive the words of idiots (and very questionably people/sources) so blindly. You just basically switched one liar for the other liar, cause you are afraid of the shadows and imaging monsters who aren't even there. Its okay not to belive the western media crap, but please dont make hardly believable conclusions in your head and call them facts.

I was the first to mention the civil war coming in Ukraine. And you were one of the first to insult me for that. Maybe my sources are not so stupid. And they are mostly non-russian.

You, and people like Christo or Kujjis, are what we call in french "les chiens de gardes du système" (Guard Dogs of the system). These people are mainstream journalists, the Police, fake experts or just volunteers on internet. One day, someone told you to guard this door at all price, until your death, and you remain loyal to this mission. Even if behind the door there is a butcher slaughtering other dogs, this is not their problem.
 Some are paid, some not. They don't expect much reward, they just love their masters. You know, these people says things like " Global warning is not a real problem", "GMO are good for Humanity", " America is always on the good side of History", "Milosevic/Saddam/Gaddafhi/Putin etc. is the new H.itler", "There is nothing to say about 9.11", "It's a good thing to bomb civilians if there is terrorists among them", and of course, the ultimate argument of ignorants "this is a conspiracy theory !".
They are self confident, very agressive and ignorants. They scare most people who prefer to remain silent. It's like a concentration camp where one thousand people are guarded by 10 dogs. If someone try to escape he's killed by the dogs. But if everybody join together, dogs are useless.
This is why I'm not affraid by the dogs, they can bark or bite I will go behind the doors.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
Quote from: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 12:02:14 am
„Conspiracy theory“… Is that meant to be an insult?

I mean that people rather believe that there is a relatively small group responsible for such events like in Ukraine instead of acknowledging the complexity of it. But actually I don't really think this is an recent development.

Quote from: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 12:02:14 am
However, I don’t see how Putin’s and “his fellow’s” actions make the German population less able to differentiate between the different media… German media mainly are indistinguishable already. If not forced into line…

I meant people can't different between the usual economical driven biased western (german) media and outright lying (falsifying documents, video-montage, etc.) russian media.


Quote from: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 12:02:14 am
By the way, I still got a question you didn’t answer yet.

ok, you asked me why these videos disgust me and made me realize more clearly then before what a complete moron you must be:
(click to show/hide)


These two videos disgust me, because:

1) Xavier Naidoo is in one of them.

2) Sentences like "I come from gdr, and I can say we lost more than we won" makes me crazy. I mean, have you talked with some victims of Stasis "Zersetzung", been to one of various good exhibitions on the topic or read a book about it? Wait, here comes my favourite about GDR from the video: "The essential is [...] your daughter and son can study anywhere for free"  :lol:

3) There are many more statements from different persons that draw wild connections between the financial debt of USA, worldwide wars, gap between the rich and the poor, Putins "multinational language" and much more with no logic or coherence identifiable.

4) The schmaltzy music and pathetic quotes and general cut of the second video, I literally was on the verge of puking watching this one.

5) They both are generally full of lies and falsifications of history and present events and wrong connections between both.

6) Like in general with these so called "neuen Montagdemos" it is completely unclear what they actually want. They seem like a bunch of somehow butthurt and/or depressed people that are somehow unsatisfied with current situation, combined with a handful of professional conspiracy theorists like Ken Jebsen or Andreas Popp that share and utilise the general hatred for USA of these people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on October 15, 2014, 09:57:43 am
Quote from: Tovi on October 14, 2014, 08:29:26 pm
As I consider myself a 90's generation because I was 20 during the 90's.

tobi pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 15, 2014, 02:33:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 15, 2014, 06:57:17 am
You, and people like Christo or Kujjis, are what we call in french "les chiens de gardes du système" (Guard Dogs of the system).

Haha.. and you Tovi are an idiot who will never change or contribute to making it better. Actually a servant to status quo, because conspiracies are modern fairytales that distract a disturbingly high amount of people, thus dissuading them from actually making a difference. Not to mention all the time spent by others trying to convince you otherwise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliot-borenstein/why-conspiracy-theories_b_5626149.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliot-borenstein/why-conspiracy-theories_b_5626149.html)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on October 15, 2014, 05:14:45 pm
(click to show/hide)

Putin dead, Ukraine won.

PS. DOn't ban please, it's political event.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 15, 2014, 05:46:47 pm
boobs
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 15, 2014, 07:59:33 pm
Putin tomorrow in Belgrade, can't move an inch outside my house. If you still want him dead, you'll have to find someone else. Preferably with microscopic drone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 15, 2014, 08:55:58 pm
Can't you just go there shirtless with something paint on your boobs?


...

I'm quite sure I will regret posting this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 15, 2014, 09:50:33 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 15, 2014, 07:59:33 pm
Putin tomorrow in Belgrade, can't move an inch outside my house. If you still want him dead, you'll have to find someone else. Preferably with microscopic drone.

Leshme do you want to get in history books? Make country proud )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 09:56:51 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
I mean that people rather believe that there is a relatively small group responsible for such events like in Ukraine instead of acknowledging the complexity of it.

Isn't that how it is? Isn't there always a small group of people responsible of such things?


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
ok, you asked me why these videos disgust me and made me realize more clearly then before what a complete moron you must be:
(click to show/hide)


These two videos disgust me, because:

2) Sentences like "I come from gdr, and I can say we lost more than we won" makes me crazy. I mean, have you talked with some victims of Stasis "Zersetzung", been to one of various good exhibitions on the topic or read a book about it? Wait, here comes my favourite about GDR from the video: "The essential is [...] your daughter and son can study anywhere for free"  :lol:

Well, yeah I also disagree with this point. My parents have grown up in East Germany and they can for sure say that they did not go on the streets for a "better socialism". My grandfather got tortured by the Stasi, my father was forced to cut off the West German flag from his jacket (he was held captive by the Stasi until he did it and his father freaked out like 'those bastards' when he heard about this incident). I know how East Germany was. The worst thing was really the Stasi. That woman indeed talked shit. Still, some certain aspects were better in East Germany than today, socially. But it's an open mic so everyone can speak.


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
3) There are many more statements from different persons that draw wild connections between the financial debt of USA, worldwide wars, gap between the rich and the poor [...] and much more with no logic or coherence identifiable.

If you understand the basics of the economical system we all currently suffer from, you will understand the connections between all this. The higher the debt the more do the people suffer. Look at Greece, the € is killing Greece's economy.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
5) They both are generally full of lies and falsifications of history and present events and wrong connections between both.

I don't think so. What do you mean? That one quotation from Elsässer about Tyahnybok was a bit different, but Elsässer probably just made a slip of the tongue, he knows it since he quoted it several times already.


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
6) Like in general with these so called "neuen Montagdemos" it is completely unclear what they actually want. They seem like a bunch of somehow butthurt and/or depressed people that are somehow unsatisfied with current situation

In main media these demonstrations are called "Reichsbürger" (Reich citizens)-movements and right-wing extremists full of completely stupid assholes and conspiracy theorists. One speaker once said "you can only understand the media if they write about you", and yep, I agree with this. I don't see why demonstrations for peace are blamed of all this. It's simply not true. Sure, there are strange people (like that woman before) but it's an open mic and everyone can decide whether they agree with a person or not. It's not like either agree with everyone or with noone. They are not just "butthurt". They see what's going on in the world and they worry about their future.


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
combined with a handful of professional conspiracy theorists like Ken Jebsen or Andreas Popp

Nowadays one is already defamed a conspiracy theorist if he only questions something... Or one is called a moron if he generally supports going on the streets against war and for peace. :rolleyes:


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on October 15, 2014, 09:02:30 am
that share and utilise the general hatred for USA of these people.

There is no hatred created against the US population. People are getting enlightened and this also contains that the US population as well suffers from for example the economical system. It's going against the decision makers responsible for all the chaos.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 10:17:12 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 15, 2014, 05:46:05 am
Mybe its banned cause its such load of bullshit, not truth. Like for example, quite many russian TV channels, that have been made by the sole reason of propaganda and claim to inpict "truth" are basically banned in the Baltics. Not really cause its so true, its banned, but rather its so insultingly not, that anyone beliving this crap is clearly so easy to manipulate with by eastern bullshit media that he/she could become a potential threat to a certain foreign government for bullshit made-up reasons.

But I digress, I dont know enough about Udo to discredit him, but im just saying, banned status and collective silence about a piece of litterature that claims to tell "the truth" about Western lies, may not be related to the fact that its true, but rather to the fact that its just not. Cause Russia at this point is so desperate to seek dirt on the West, that im quite confident they are throwing huge piles of cash at everyone who have some degree of credibility and are willing to sell themselves out.

First of all the book is not banned. If it contained bullshit then why don't they say that? Why don't they warn the readers that this book is really not worth reading? If they don't say a word about it they don't want the issue to become public. But since a record of the phone call between the Dutch journalist and the FAZ is existing in the internet, the Streisand effect might occur. FAZ tries to ignore the book, the strategy becomes exposed publicly, so the issue might get even more attention.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 16, 2014, 03:26:21 pm
You don't need any external element to make your own judgement. When you read (or hear) bullshit on your media you should make the difference. For exemple, when a plane is destroyed by "multiple impacts" it cannot be a single missile.
When Victoria Nulland says "We've spent 5 billions $ in Ukraine, now we can choose who will lead this country", you can just trust her.
When Assad is supposed to be so evil and stupid that he uses chemical weapons JUST when UNO inspectors are in the area...
I mean, a conspiracy is supposed to be secret, not telling bullshit and hoping people are dumb enough to believe it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Rhekimos on October 16, 2014, 04:07:14 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 16, 2014, 03:26:21 pm
For exemple, when a plane is destroyed by "multiple impacts" it cannot be a single missile.

Actually many missiles blow up and send shrapnel to shred the target. Like a flying shotgun of doom.

This is especially true of anti-air missiles. And the Russian Buk/SA-11 missile is shrapnel based.

Multiple impacts checks out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 16, 2014, 04:33:56 pm
But Tovi, you seem unable to sort out your sources.

Who reported plane was shot down by multiple impacts? Any credible source without strong self-interest? Was the information abused, as from "several fragments/bullets" or several different bullets? Edit: like above posters, all air to air missiles are fragment based. Lots of little pieces fly out out them at high speeds to hit better and from further away. Missiles don't work like in james bond movies actually flying into the aircrafts. They explode when they think they are as close as they can be. Did I mention the SU-25 is unpressurized? That its service ceiling (how high it can fly straight) is 2 miles below the altitude of MH17?

I agree with the Nuland thing. But again, it doesn't say HOW that money was spent. US and EU has spent billions and billions in aid to eastern europe since 1991. Even Russia has recieved $2.7 billion from USAID since 1991. Of course, USAID is also a tool to promote american interests around the world. Saying that CIA paid protesters to be on Maidan is utter BS. I'm sure Kiev residents were super-happy with their ultra-corrupt russian puppet president..

The Assad thing I agree with 100%. Doesn't make any sense that Assad did it.

Now to the point Tovi.

You have 1 lie, one half thruth, and one "most probably true" case. You are mixing and reading them as truths. Read the article I linked earlier pls, because it details how lots of people gets confused, especially those "truth in the middle" guys that get exploited by obnoxious lies.

Here's how it works:
 
I watched RT just after MH17 came down. They were talking about Putin's plane similarity (Though it is 4 vs 2 engines, but shown from the side not visible. Not mentioning Putin travelling far far to the north.. ) Constantly mentioning how Ukraine had done this before. (An, accident, how the fuck is that relevant. Russia/SU has also shot down airliners before by accident.)

Before anyone knew anything, they desperately tried to put the blame on Ukraine. Then they continued to cook up stories.. About SU-25s (That would struggle immensely to reach that height. And why not use SU-27 that can easily reach it?)  ..... Everything that comes after is just desperate clinging, trying to place the blame..

The only thing they did was reveal their desperate will to lie to put the blame on someone else. Now you know their attitude. They are not searching for truth.

Tovi, the people in mainstream Russian media see themselves as media warriors in a media war. And because they have grown up in a lying Russian&Ukrainian reality (USSR and post-USSR) They just assume western media is lying too. Just that they are better at it than them, so they try harder.

IDK what more to say. Just go to Russia or Ukraine, speak with some russians/ukrainians and get a grip on the mentality there and absurd reality there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 16, 2014, 06:48:49 pm
Quote from: Thomek on October 16, 2014, 04:33:56 pm
IDK what more to say. Just go to Russia or Ukraine, speak with some russians/ukrainians and get a grip on the mentality there and absurd reality there.
Tovi you don't need to go to Russia, you can speak with me.

Thomek started good in analysing your posts but failed in the end, first of all RF blamed Ukraine that they didn't close the air in the war zone, so this is their fault by ICAO laws. Second RT didn't say that Ukraine shot this plane, but said that they could and gave prooves that at this moment there were three ukraine BUK system. Third USA stated that they have direct prooves that this was russian BUK and RF is guilty for this crash and despite EU didn't want to make new sanctions against Russia they did it after this crash.
The only thing they did was reveal their desperate will to lie to put the blame on someone else. Now you know their attitude. They are not searching for truth you need to watch UN briefings and you will see who is trying to find the truth and who not. So your statements smell a little bit like a shit
And now try to answer some questions: 1) Why RF needed to shoot this plane? 2) Why separatists need a BUK without a special system, if they can shoot ukranian planes and helicopters with weapons they had before?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 16, 2014, 08:26:55 pm
I'm not sure of anything about the plane. But impacts in the cockpit means frontal impact, wich is quite impossible with a missile guided by infra-red.
Anyway, you should have noticed than all western leaders have accused Russia and Putin since the begining of the story. Without any evidence, of course. Obama can lie, the bad guy will be Putin in our media. At least, we can conclude than western media are not objective.

About dissidence funding in Ukraine. Actualy it's not the CIA job. Of course, they have some contact but they do not "pay" anybody. It works with some NGO like the Soros Fundation (OSF), the NED (led by McCain) and many others. Activists are mainly trained in Serbia via OTPOR. This system is the same for many "colored revolutions", like Tunisia, Georgia etc. or even Hong Kong.
(click to show/hide)
OTPOR logo at Hong Kong

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Same in Egypt

McCain is the big boss of these operations.
You can see him at Maidan :
McCain is also the guys who negociate less democratic revolutions, like in Syria.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

McCain negociating with the Daech leader Al Bagdadi, and Al Nostra (Al Qaida)

They actually try to do the same revolution in Russia. That's why Putin wants to forbid and expel some of these NGO.
USAID is known, since a long time, to be a hive of CIA agents. That's why they have been kicked out from Bolivia by Evo Morales.

Here is the way they work : they found a local politician, with some liberal positions, mainly pro-west. They give him many favors, like big amount of money, like "we don't ask you anything, we like your style, so take this money and try to win the next election". Once elected (if so), they come back and say "do you remember us ?".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on October 16, 2014, 08:40:50 pm
Yea, that fist is totally some NGO logo and not the symbol for revolution all over the world for decades...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Oh Tovi :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 16, 2014, 11:17:14 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on October 16, 2014, 06:48:49 pm
Tovi you don't need to go to Russia, you can speak with me.

Thomek started good in analysing your posts but failed in the end, first of all RF blamed Ukraine that they didn't close the air in the war zone, so this is their fault by ICAO laws. Second RT didn't say that Ukraine shot this plane, but said that they could and gave prooves that at this moment there were three ukraine BUK system. Third USA stated that they have direct prooves that this was russian BUK and RF is guilty for this crash and despite EU didn't want to make new sanctions against Russia they did it after this crash.
The only thing they did was reveal their desperate will to lie to put the blame on someone else. Now you know their attitude. They are not searching for truth you need to watch UN briefings and you will see who is trying to find the truth and who not. So your statements smell a little bit like a shit
And now try to answer some questions: 1) Why RF needed to shoot this plane? 2) Why separatists need a BUK without a special system, if they can shoot ukranian planes and helicopters with weapons they had before?

1. Nobody wanted to shoot down this plane. None. No, I don't believe RF or separatists are evil. I don't even believe Putin is evil. I believe it was done by separatists somehow, and probably with RF supplied BUK. They probably misidentified the plane, or were too trigger-happy.  Maybe because of quick and dirty training in RF, or old BUK vets that hadn't touched in years. I don't know. I just know that that is the most plausible story here.  (Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists. ) Nicko, you are russian, you know how things work there.

2. Igla's and manpads generall can only reach targets at up to 3km altitude. Airliners fly at 10-11km. SU-25 operates at low altitudes with direct fire. Same as helicopters. Now.. interesting thing is that few days before, rebels shot down at UKR army plane at 5km ("safe" altitude against manpads) and UKR thought RF had shot it down with fighter jets.  Most likely it was that same rebel BUK.  (observed various places missing 2 missiles after MH17.)




TOVI:
Your ignorance is just staggering. BUK is not an IR system but radar based..

I never denied US foreign policy is often shit, cynical and plain out stupid, but that doesn't make a single action from RF RIGHT. U need to learn to hate both sides here. :) That's the last effort I will make to convince you of anything.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 17, 2014, 12:33:19 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 16, 2014, 11:17:14 pm
1. Nobody wanted to shoot down this plane. None. No, I don't believe RF or separatists are evil. I don't even believe Putin is evil. I believe it was done by separatists somehow, and probably with RF supplied BUK. They probably misidentified the plane, or were too trigger-happy.  Maybe because of quick and dirty training in RF, or old BUK vets that hadn't touched in years. I don't know. I just know that that is the most plausible story here.  (Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists. ) Nicko, you are russian, you know how things work there.

2. Igla's and manpads generall can only reach targets at up to 3km altitude. Airliners fly at 10-11km. SU-25 operates at low altitudes with direct fire. Same as helicopters. Now.. interesting thing is that few days before, rebels shot down at UKR army plane at 5km ("safe" altitude against manpads) and UKR thought RF had shot it down with fighter jets.  Most likely it was that same rebel BUK.  (observed various places missing 2 missiles after MH17.)




TOVI:
Your ignorance is just staggering. BUK is not an IR system but radar based..

I never denied US foreign policy is often shit, cynical and plain out stupid, but that doesn't make a single action from RF RIGHT. U need to learn to hate both sides here. :) That's the last effort I will make to convince you of anything.

AsI said, I have no particular opinion about who shot it. I'm just sceptical. A missile shot by an Ukrainian fighter could have IR system. And this option is defended by Russia, so, as you can see I don't defend any side.


@ Molly : inform yourself about OTPOR.
Technically, the formation center is called CANVAS, managed by Srdja Popovic (ex Otpor leader), in Serbia. He trained many activists from Tunisia, Egypt, Georgia, Ukraine etc.). He receive money from IRI (McCain), the OSI (Soros) and Freedom House. In Hong Kong, the OCLP was not directly trained by CANVAS but they applied the same methods and are congratulated by Srdja Popovic.
In Hong Kong the OCLP gets money from the Hong Kong Human Rights Monitor (HKHRM), led by Yuk-kai Law. THis organization receveid 1 million$ from the NED (according to their website). Their program (autonomy of HK, free elections etc.) is established by the NDI the (National Democratic Institute, another American NGO linked to the Democrat party).
All those NGO infiltrate local universities to detect potential political leaders. They fund them, they pay them a trip in the USA to get some "links" (business, politic or CIA) and come back to their country.
It's not really new, the US empire always worked this way.
Everything I say can be verified, because it's not secret, this is not a "conspiracy", this is the way this world works. Revolutions do not sprout from nowhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 17, 2014, 01:55:38 am
Tovi, I'm seriously trying to guess what it would take in your eyes for any kind of major NGO to not be subject to a conspiracy theory. What you base your accusations on basically describes all of them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 17, 2014, 03:13:56 am
Quote from: Rhekimos on October 16, 2014, 04:07:14 pm
Actually many missiles blow up and send shrapnel to shred the target. Like a flying shotgun of doom.

This is especially true of anti-air missiles. And the Russian Buk/SA-11 missile is shrapnel based.

Multiple impacts checks out.

✓ Another field where Tovi has no idea what he is talking about

Good god Tovi is there anything that you can actually understand?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 17, 2014, 05:40:42 am
Quote from: Thomek on October 16, 2014, 11:17:14 pm
1. Nobody wanted to shoot down this plane. None. No, I don't believe RF or separatists are evil. I don't even believe Putin is evil. I believe it was done by separatists somehow, and probably with RF supplied BUK. They probably misidentified the plane, or were too trigger-happy.  Maybe because of quick and dirty training in RF, or old BUK vets that hadn't touched in years. I don't know. I just know that that is the most plausible story here.  (Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists. ) Nicko, you are russian, you know how things work there.
What I think, that it can be made by separatists or ukranian army or russians, I don't know exactly, because of that I don't state who made this, but when people start to blame RF, I write another version. Ukr. didn't do it because  there were no air-threats from separatists Indeed, that was the question from RF officials, why Ukr. army had three BUK system on that territory, if there is no air-threats from separatists. RF showed that 16 of July they were on the base, on 17 they were opened on the field where plane crashed, and 18. of july the moved back to the base. And why USA forced EU to make new sanctions against RF without any investigation?

Quote
2. Igla's and manpads generall can only reach targets at up to 3km altitude. Airliners fly at 10-11km. SU-25 operates at low altitudes with direct fire. Same as helicopters. Now.. interesting thing is that few days before, rebels shot down at UKR army plane at 5km ("safe" altitude against manpads) and UKR thought RF had shot it down with fighter jets.  Most likely it was that same rebel BUK.  (observed various places missing 2 missiles after MH17.)
Yes I heard from UKR media that RF used nukes at airport and new high-tech bullets and alien weapon
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 18, 2014, 10:52:10 am
Quote from: Kafein on October 17, 2014, 01:55:38 am
Tovi, I'm seriously trying to guess what it would take in your eyes for any kind of major NGO to not be subject to a conspiracy theory. What you base your accusations on basically describes all of them.

There is no "conspiracy", they just bet on your ignorance. These NGO do not hide anything, just go to their web site. Inform yourself, I don't ask anybody to trust me but to make its own research.
Why so much people vote for people they don't know ? All informations are available now. Inform himself is a citizen duty.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 18, 2014, 03:03:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 18, 2014, 10:52:10 am
There is no "conspiracy", they just bet on your ignorance. These NGO do not hide anything, just go to their web site. Inform yourself, I don't ask anybody to trust me but to make its own research.
Why so much people vote for people they don't know ? All informations are available now. Inform himself is a citizen duty.

You should start a political career, evading questions seems to come naturally. In fact you are commenting further on the absurdity of the connections you make. Yes, all the information is available, precisely because governments donating to NGOs isn't really something out of the ordinary or particularly disturbing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 18, 2014, 05:50:33 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 18, 2014, 03:03:49 pm
You should start a political career, evading questions seems to come naturally. In fact you are commenting further on the absurdity of the connections you make. Yes, all the information is available, precisely because governments donating to NGOs isn't really something out of the ordinary or particularly disturbing.

Run for office bra
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 18, 2014, 09:26:54 pm
Porochenko seems to be not anymore the favorite of Washington (military failure doesn't help). According to the Saker, there is a very real possibility that many deathsquad leaders (aka “volunteer battalion commanders”) will make it into the Rada, especially Lyashko.



(evading questions ? What questions ?)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 19, 2014, 03:41:41 am
Quote from: Tovi on October 18, 2014, 09:26:54 pm
(evading questions ? What questions ?)

The entire fucking thread.

You spout bullshit, get destroyed via argumentation again and again, and type even more bullshit, and this repeats.

Check your post history, if you don't believe it. Or you might have some disorder or something.
Not knowing how basic things work and having your 'own' moronic interpretations kinda supports this idea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 19, 2014, 04:06:57 am
Quote from: Christo on October 19, 2014, 03:41:41 am
The entire fucking thread.

You spout bullshit, get destroyed via argumentation again and again, and type even more bullshit, and this repeats.

Check your post history, if you don't believe it. Or you might have some disorder or something.
Not knowing how basic things work and having your 'own' moronic interpretations kinda supports this idea.

He's not allowed to shitpost on one of the premier shitposting boards?

Besides, its in off topic.  He's being on topic by being off topic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 19, 2014, 04:18:53 am
This thread is, despite/thanks to everyone's, not shit at all but quite enlightening :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 19, 2014, 04:19:48 am
Quote from: Butan on October 19, 2014, 04:18:53 am
This thread is, despite/thanks to everyone's, not shit at all but quite enlightening :P

Welcome to the wonderful world of politics, which is at its core a glorified shittossing match.   :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 19, 2014, 04:21:31 am
Honestly the biggest hole in Tovi's posting is using John McCain as a lynchpin in any sort of conspiracy beyond "misguided PR photo shoot." He's a career politician clown near the end of his life of service, and was seen in Syria so often because it was the opposite of what Obama was doing at the time.

In fact it seems Tovi holds American politicians in much higher esteem than any actual Americans, since we consider them almost all compromised by special interests, corruption, and self-serving for amassing power and influence for the sake of money and comfortable private-sector jobs after losing an election in finance.

And whenever they speak up about something that isn't some class-warfare domestic shit, its just to be contradictory to someone else to play politics.

I mean why would some chucklefuck Republican senator/congressperson spend decades nurturing terrorist cells under his own leadership in ever-changing clusterfucks of the middle east on the off chance of establishin some American friendly business ties, when they are already taking Koch brother paychecks to deny global warming and get more funding for coal plants or something right here in America.

The 9/11 conspiracy crap is the real kicker.. people in the same breath talking about how incredibly stupid and incompetent the Bush 2 administration was, then talk about how they pulled off the greatest conspiracy of all time in broad daylight, killing thousands of Americans by blowing up two huge sI love youcrapers in front of the entire world (and flew planes into it just for lulz). Even though there are endless reports of Bush administration ignoring or not understanding an imminent threat of hijackings to attack domestic landmarks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 19, 2014, 04:36:30 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 19, 2014, 04:21:31 am
Honestly the biggest hole in Tovi's posting is using John McCain as a lynchpin in any sort of conspiracy beyond "misguided PR photo shoot." He's a career politician clown near the end of his life of service, and was seen in Syria so often because it was the opposite of what Obama was doing at the time.

In fact it seems Tovi holds American politicians in much higher esteem than any actual Americans, since we consider them almost all compromised by special interests, corruption, and self-serving for amassing power and influence for the sake of money and comfortable private-sector jobs after losing an election in finance.

And whenever they speak up about something that isn't some class-warfare domestic shit, its just to be contradictory to someone else to play politics.

I mean why would some chucklefuck Republican senator/congressperson spend decades nurturing terrorist cells under his own leadership in ever-changing clusterfucks of the middle east on the off chance of establishin some American friendly business ties, when they are already taking Koch brother paychecks to deny global warming and get more funding for coal plants or something right here in America.

The 9/11 conspiracy crap is the real kicker.. people in the same breath talking about how incredibly stupid and incompetent the Bush 2 administration was, then talk about how they pulled off the greatest conspiracy of all time in broad daylight, killing thousands of Americans by blowing up two huge sI love youcrapers in front of the entire world (and flew planes into it just for lulz). Even though there are endless reports of Bush administration ignoring or not understanding an imminent threat of hijackings to attack domestic landmarks.

Pretty sure that Tovi is just posting whatever the fuck he wants to get a reaction (gee I've never done this before)

The whole 9/11 truther thing is just a business model to get stupid, gullible people to buy books and other merchandise.  Not sure where the equally crazy crap like global warming and blaming Koch for every ill on earth falls in but ok
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 19, 2014, 05:01:58 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on October 19, 2014, 04:36:30 am

The whole 9/11 truther thing is just a business model to get stupid, gullible people to buy books and other merchandise. 

Its not trust me. Tons of people really believe all that shit across the world with a righteous fury. Even in NYC, all of the anti-Iraq war marches and random activist meetings started to be hijacked by 9/11 truthers, and you'd have people handing out TRUTH pamphlets outside of subway stations right around the WTC site daily for years. Calling them idiots would get responses like WAKE UP SHEEPLE.

Tovi is a conspiracy nut, maybe you don't know any? My friend's mother could be talking to me about some normal thing while handing me books about the mayan apocalypse, does nothing but post vaccine, GMO, 9/11, CIA in syria crap, they live and breathe the need to accept everything they read on the internet as truth. Its a disorder in itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 19, 2014, 05:10:40 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 19, 2014, 05:01:58 am
Its not trust me. Tons of people really believe all that shit across the world with a righteous fury. Even in NYC, all of the anti-Iraq war marches and random activist meetings started to be hijacked by 9/11 truthers, and you'd have people handing out TRUTH pamphlets outside of subway stations right around the WTC site daily for years. Calling them idiots would get responses like WAKE UP SHEEPLE.

Tovi is a conspiracy nut, maybe you don't know any? My friend's mother could be talking to me about some normal thing while handing me books about the mayan apocalypse, does nothing but post vaccine, GMO, 9/11, CIA in syria crap, they live and breathe the need to accept everything they read on the internet as truth. Its a disorder in itself.

Nah but I've known people that willingly make money off of the Tovi types, which in this context can be worse than the actual conspiracy theories themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 19, 2014, 02:43:00 pm
The problem is that some conspiracy theory shit does happen, and the loads of funny, ill-conceived fakes makes detecting the true ones a very hard thing to do for the layman. I mean, "USA selling weapons to Iran to fund the Contras!!!! Wake up sheeple" lmao.

About 9/11 I always wanted an engineer/architect to explain the physics of it, because it seems weird. I suppose that in densely built areas, all the towers have to be designed in a way that large structural damage makes it fall on itself with minimal collateral instead of tipping and creating a domino effect.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 04:09:27 pm
You think you are soo intelligent because your information comes from TV and 80% of people watching TV like you agree with you ? Ok.

You think people earning millions of $ in the US gvt are just stupid and incompetent because TV says so ? Ok

You think people reading books, knowing History, Economy, Science are just some stupid nerds ? Ok

We are on a video games forum after all. I don't expect much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 04:16:24 pm
Quote from: Christo on October 19, 2014, 03:41:41 am
The entire fucking thread.

You spout bullshit, get destroyed via argumentation again and again, and type even more bullshit, and this repeats.

Check your post history, if you don't believe it. Or you might have some disorder or something.
Not knowing how basic things work and having your 'own' moronic interpretations kinda supports this idea.

Argumentation ? What argumentation ? I just see a wave of insults. I mean, people supporting nazees like Svoboda can't do something else I suppose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 19, 2014, 04:36:00 pm
And I see shit the likes of David Icke would say.

Tell me Tovi, do you believe in reptilians? Lizard illuminati?

Just saying the shit you are saying in this thread has the same basis.

Quote from: Kafein on October 19, 2014, 02:43:00 pm
About 9/11 I always wanted an engineer/architect to explain the physics of it, because it seems weird. I suppose that in densely built areas, all the towers have to be designed in a way that large structural damage makes it fall on itself with minimal collateral instead of tipping and creating a domino effect.

Also is there information on how much weight stress could the building withstand before falling apart?

Pretty sure those buildings were not planned to hold the weight of an airliner. That would be like how many tons?

I know the 777 can theoretically be 351 tons at max for an example. That's a crapton of weight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 19, 2014, 04:54:48 pm
I think we made Tovi mad with our dumbs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 19, 2014, 05:02:34 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 04:09:27 pm
You think you are soo intelligent because your information comes from TV and 80% of people watching TV like you agree with you ? Ok.

You think people earning millions of $ in the US gvt are just stupid and incompetent because TV says so ? Ok

You think people reading books, knowing History, Economy, Science are just some stupid nerds ? Ok

We are on a video games forum after all. I don't expect much.

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Ssssilly huumann.

Thinkss he cann kontroll himssselfffpph and hissss.. thoughtssSSs.

Sssss.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on October 19, 2014, 05:51:48 pm
The following lines are written in an article of one of the most anti-Russian, onesided newspapers in Germany. Someone gets afraid of a more and more enlightened crowd I think :wink:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 07:16:53 pm
The conspirationists are those who believe that Putin has a plan to invade Europe. 
(I don't even know what a reptilian is.)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 19, 2014, 10:48:19 pm
Quote from: Anuran on October 19, 2014, 05:51:48 pm
"The parliament blackballed a proposal to state the controversial group of partisans as national heroes. Among other things, they are accused of mass murder against the Polish minority."

Maximum hypocrisy activated

Quote from: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 07:16:53 pm
The conspirationists are those who believe that Putin has a plan to invade Europe. 
(I don't even know what a reptilian is.)

Are you denying that Crimea is de facto occupied by the Russian army? If that isn't an invasion of Europe, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 10:53:49 pm
Crimea has always been military base for Russia !

A referendum to reunite a country is not exactly an "invasion" anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 19, 2014, 11:03:02 pm
You keep talking like that referendum was legitimate. Obviously enough, it wasn't, and even the UN made a statement about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_68/262
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on October 19, 2014, 11:12:52 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 18, 2014, 09:26:54 pm
...many deathsquad leaders (aka “volunteer battalion commanders”)... especially Lyashko.

 :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 11:44:10 pm
Everything I said about McCain, the NED and HK is in the Washington Post (a conspiracy media ??) : http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-now-admits-it-is-funding-occupy-central-in-hong-kong/5405680

Make your own opinion, use your mind before insulting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 20, 2014, 07:27:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 19, 2014, 11:44:10 pm
Everything I said about McCain, the NED and HK is in the Washington Post (a conspiracy media ??) : http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-now-admits-it-is-funding-occupy-central-in-hong-kong/5405680

Make your own opinion, use your mind before insulting.

I would personally donate in support of the Honk Kong movements because I think the mainland is trying to undermine their democratic freedoms. I don't see why it's a problem if the US (or any other country for that matter) does it.

So... what? What does that have to do with Russia fabricating an uprising from the ground up and fueling the war in Eastern Ukraine with professional soldiers, weapons and equipment? Invading Ukraine with its army, organizing a phony referendum and then rigging it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 20, 2014, 07:36:32 pm
The ongoing consolidation of power in Russia goes completely ignored. It's more and more a dictatorship. Crying crocodile tears about "fascists" in Ukraine governement having 2 percent of parliamentary seats while their own political landscape is completely devoid of any opposition to Putin's extremely nationalist inspired stranglehold. More media control, more control over the internet, more censorship, more government propaganda, tens of thousands of political refugees fleeing blatant political repression.
We've gotten to the point where funding pro-democracy movements = fascism, and top down centralized dictatorship = freedom. It's fucking orwellian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on October 20, 2014, 08:15:29 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 20, 2014, 07:36:32 pm
The ongoing consolidation of power in Russia goes completely ignored. It's more and more a dictatorship. Crying crocodile tears about "fascists" in Ukraine governement having 2 percent of parliamentary seats while their own political landscape is completely devoid of any opposition to Putin's extremely nationalist inspired stranglehold. More media control, more control over the internet, more censorship, more government propaganda, tens of thousands of political refugees fleeing blatant political repression.
We've gotten to the point where funding pro-democracy movements = fascism, and top down centralized dictatorship = freedom. It's fucking orwellian.
You are late a little bit with this statements
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 21, 2014, 01:05:52 am
Its funny that you start your listing with "Ukraine has 2% far-rights seats" (closer to 10%) and go on to name Putin extremely nationalist while his party's credo is centrist conservatism and the closest political entity to your little tirade have about 15% seats and no real power. It's fucking orwellian  :P


Quote from: Oberyn on October 20, 2014, 07:36:32 pm
The ongoing consolidation of power in Russia goes completely ignored.

We indeed largely ignore the issue that when someone wins an election multiple times in a row, they stay in power. I dont understand  why :(



We've gotten to the point where I give you your ball back, go play with your friends and re-build the cold war from bottom to top!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 05:24:03 am
Butan, please go back to bathing in the cock sweat of propaganda put out by the russian government. Your whiny tirades about horrible western "agression" and innocent, democratic Russia merely defending it's interests have grown tepid and boring. If any western government did even a quarter of the blatant fascist shit Russia does in it's own land to it's own citizens (ignoring, oh I dunno, little things like military annexation of a neighbor they had a disarmament/non-agression pact with, using ethnic nationalist motives on the level of the fucking Suddetenland annexation) you wouldn't be able to stop emo-ing and whining about how evil and fascist and imperialist it all is.
If anyone has restarted the Cold War it's the fucking dictator for life of "democratic" Russia, a fucking ex-KGB agent who's propaganda techniques consist of parading and reminding every slight and insult noble Rus has ever suffered, ESPECIALLY in the aftermath of the Cold War, and built his popular success on "getting even" for it. Spare me your condescension, I consider your perspective about a few steps above that of Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 21, 2014, 06:01:09 am
Quote from: DonNicko on October 20, 2014, 08:15:29 pm
You are late a little bit with this statements
Pretty much yea, been happening for a decade now.

Quote from: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 05:24:03 am
If anyone has restarted the Cold War it's the fucking dictator for life of "democratic" Russia, a fucking ex-KGB agent who's propaganda techniques consist of parading and reminding every slight and insult noble Rus has ever suffered, ESPECIALLY in the aftermath of the Cold War, and built his popular success on "getting even" for it. Spare me your condescension, I consider your perspective about a few steps above that of Tovi.
Meh, another president wouldnt really change much. The public has been brainwashed very hard to believe that they need nothing but a strong hand in ruling and all pro-West is evil. By those 2 facts the russians will never vote(if they could legimately) someone with actual brains. They will just choose the agressive lots-of-yelling, #Russiastronk types of politicians. All of this crap is hardly on Putin alone. A considerable amount of people are even quite pissed at Putin cause he hasnt fully invaded anything yet. This is what happens when your propaganda is so freaking successful that it even backfires.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 21, 2014, 10:20:19 am
ok anuran, your answer seems less moronic, contrary to Tovi you certainly seem to be able to do a normal discussion. Still I can't believe someone sane would attend to these Montagsdemos from what I saw or heard.

Quote from: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 09:56:51 pm
Isn't that how it is? Isn't there always a small group of people responsible of such things?

I believe exactly the opposite on many important historical events is the case. Of course there are these small groups of power, but within the interference between these groups and 'unimportant' individuals as well as other random circumstances there is so much unpredictable complex stuff going on.

Best example of course is the ongoing discussion since centuries about the responsibility of WWI. Personally I would still give Germany much of the blame and think the currently popular opinion in line with Christopher Clarks "Sleepwalkers" trivializes the german guilt a bit too much, but there is no doubt the whole thing is a huge complex apparatus with many sides to blame and bad luck playing it's role. And definitely no one at that time had an idea of the complexity or the consequences of their actions.

Quote from: Anuran on October 15, 2014, 09:56:51 pm
If you understand the basics of the economical system we all currently suffer from, you will understand the connections between all this. The higher the debt the more do the people suffer. Look at Greece, the € is killing Greece's economy.

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

This is just so dumb again, you are simplifying things way too much. Do you really think things works so easy? The world's problems explained in an equation with 2 parameters? come on.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 21, 2014, 02:08:50 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 05:24:03 am
Your whiny tirades about horrible western "agression" and innocent, democratic Russia merely defending it's interests have grown tepid and boring.

Not so boring that it doesnt trigger a mental breakdown from the most reasonable poster of that thread :mrgreen:

No one person said the words you are putting in my mouth, you are merely using anything contrary to your opinion as an excuse to eject your densely packed thoughts into a condensed pile of shitposts, like always. In that you are very skilled (I still think you could make some effort to pretend to debate?), but the violence and nonsensicality of your speeches makes me think you need some time-off and possibly appointments with specialists  :lol: have you been raped by a bearded communist from the KGB in your tender age?


Spare me your emotional responses, I consider you are a few step above the level of russian propaganda in its stubborn bullshitery.


Quote from: Tibe on October 21, 2014, 06:01:09 am
A considerable amount of people are even quite pissed at Putin cause he hasnt fully invaded anything yet.

Yes, because Putin isnt the extremely nationalist warmonger that the very smarter not-at-all-brainwashed people from the western world thinks he is. The reasons that Putin is still in power isnt because he is the strong handed torture specialist ex-KGB agent world dictator that we paint him to be, he strikes a balance between capitalism/expansionism economy of the far righties and socialism statism from the far-lefties: if the post-USSR russian people votes for him, it might be for reasons that are good for them, dont you think?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 21, 2014, 02:42:39 pm
Fuck it! Stay in your  basement you call France and assume shit over actual opinions of people who deal with this shit daily, Butan. This is pointless. Here, have worldballs:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
I have no interest in "debating" in this thread, shitposting is all it's good for. Your game of playing fallacy of the middle ground between the "west" and RF is old and tired. Keep defending the "democracy" that is increasingly consolidating and centralizing power and control over all forms of media backed by populist rage and military masturbation while hilariously claiming "fascism" and brainwashing in the "west" is just as bad. Gorbachev and the end of the Cold War was their "Versailles Treaty", and Putin rode the disastifaction and frustrated national ego to his current position. It's not even close to the apogee yet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 21, 2014, 03:24:52 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
I have no interest in "debating" in this thread, shitposting is all it's good for. Your game of playing fallacy of the middle ground between the "west" and RF is old and tired. Keep defending the "democracy" that is increasingly consolidating and centralizing power and control over all forms of media backed by populist rage and military masturbation while hilariously claiming "fascism" and brainwashing in the "west" is just as bad. Gorbachev and the end of the Cold Wa

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 21, 2014, 04:29:31 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
while hilariously claiming "fascism" and brainwashing in the "west" is just as bad

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 21, 2014, 04:30:39 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
I have no interest in "debating" in this thread, shitposting is all it's good for.
Yes, I think those two have proven over and over in this thread that "debating" with them is a pointless endeavor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 04:44:13 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 21, 2014, 04:29:31 pm
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Yeah, the hopeless slavery in the western world, it's so incredibly oppressive. That's why there's hundreds of thousands of people emigrating, tens of thousands of them political refugees, and not hordes of people fleeing from actual dystopian oppressive shitholes (i.e the vast majority of the rest of the world) trying to get in.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 21, 2014, 05:35:05 pm
Again, why did I bother. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 21, 2014, 05:44:50 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 21, 2014, 04:30:39 pm
Yes, I think those two have proven over and over in this thread that "debating" with them is a pointless endeavor.

The assumption that you can "debate" on the internet without things turning into a pissing match is a mistake on your part.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 21, 2014, 06:16:27 pm
Time for some humour:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 21, 2014, 09:05:31 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on October 21, 2014, 05:44:50 pm
The assumption that you can "debate" on the internet without things turning into a pissing match is a mistake on your part.
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/bannerlord-esport/msg874684/#msg874684
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 21, 2014, 09:12:49 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 21, 2014, 09:05:31 pm
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/bannerlord-esport/msg874684/#msg874684

 :lol:

Fucking lost it laughing, drink all over the keyboard

esports pro shitposter league
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 22, 2014, 03:22:51 pm
News from eastern front :

(click to show/hide)

Ukraine forces seems to have enhanced their tactic by bombing enemy positions before launching an assault (wow...). Especially in the south of Donetsk.
Actually, they try to surround Donetsk. Bombing in the south, assault on airport in the middle and a huge offensive in the north.

There is also another front close to Pervomaisk (West of Lugansk), with an attempt to surround the city.
Mariupol has not falled yet (and probably wont).

Conclusion : there is an intense military activity and the ceasefire is just a joke. A war is still occuring in Europe, but not a word in western medias.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 22, 2014, 07:16:29 pm
...yeah, not a word in western media. Nowhere at all is there media declaring the ceasefire a ridiculous joke, or reports of continuing military activity being discussed.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 22, 2014, 08:03:12 pm
You know if you threated Tovi like this forums Fox News or RT news, its actually pretty solid entertainment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 22, 2014, 08:07:03 pm
I spoke today with a guy just coming from Ukraine. Says the war is escalating there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 22, 2014, 08:33:22 pm
Well, I mean, in France they don't speak about Ukraine. Maybe it's different in your countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 22, 2014, 08:45:52 pm
Mec, t'est serieux? Faut vraiment être complétement con ou complétement aveugle. Ya des dizaines d'articles et de sources qui parlent de l'Ukraine. Tu sais utiliser google pour autre chose que trouver tes sites de conspiracies ridicules?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 22, 2014, 09:20:04 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 22, 2014, 08:45:52 pm
Mec, t'est serieux? Faut vraiment être complétement con ou complétement aveugle. Ya des dizaines d'articles et de sources qui parlent de l'Ukraine. Tu sais utiliser google pour autre chose que trouver tes sites de conspiracies ridicules?

Without a translator, lets see how close I get.
Are you serious? Complimenting your idiocy(?). Giberish about sources and Ukraine. Do you use google and chose the most ridiculous conspiracy site.

Google Translate:
Dude, you are serious ? You really have to be completely stupid or completely blind. Are dozens of articles and sources that speak of Ukraine. You know how to use google to find anything but your sites ridiculous conspiracies ?

Not bad....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 22, 2014, 09:21:31 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 22, 2014, 08:45:52 pm
Mec, t'est serieux? Faut vraiment être complétement con ou complétement aveugle. Ya des dizaines d'articles et de sources qui parlent de l'Ukraine. Tu sais utiliser google pour autre chose que trouver tes sites de conspiracies ridicules?

Quel site conspirationiste ? Je me réfère souvent au site d'Olivier Berruyer, si tu veux savoir.  Ailleurs je n'ai pas entendu parler des exactions de l'armée ukrainiennes, juste des infos aussi bidons que "Poutine a décidé de retirer ses troupes d'Ukraine" (au lieu de "la frontière ukrainienne). Mais bon, si tu considères ça comme de l'information, alors peut être qu'ils en parlent un peu effectivement.
Ah, et moi aussi je connais plein d'insultes, mais je trouve que leur emploi n'est pas un signe d'intelligence.

Spéciale dédicace pour tes "infos" ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on October 22, 2014, 09:54:18 pm
Haha, "western media is not talking about Ukraine, SUSPICIOUS"

"But Tovi, there's literally tons of articles and sources talking about Ukraine"

"Those are all worthless propaganda! How can you even call that news?"

Which is it, the west is avoiding talking about it or the west is pouring out propaganda about it? If you weren't a fucking idiot you'd understand these two things are mutually exclusive. But of course once one of your retarded claims was proven to be completely fucking retarded (yet again) you pretend it never existed and moved those goalposts. Now the western media IS talking about it, but simply can't be trusted, unlike your gaggle of moronic sources.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 22, 2014, 11:39:20 pm
Could you just give me a media talking about military operations for exemple ? With a map like the one I gave.
Because you insult a lot but you don't say anything relevant.
Type something like "Donbass massacre" in Google , you wont' find any mainstream media.


I'm the only one who gives real informations here. That's why so many ignorant people hate me. The propaganda cannot resist to the truth, so they just have insults left. At this point, insults are a sign, the signature of ignorance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 23, 2014, 12:40:40 am
Insult is the only thing left, because you can't even answer to simple questions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 23, 2014, 03:11:06 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 21, 2014, 02:42:39 pm
Fuck it! Stay in your  basement you call France and assume shit over actual opinions of people who deal with this shit daily, Butan.

I see more things from my basement than you from the frontlines of your daily virtual war  :D
(click to show/hide)



Quote from: Butan on October 21, 2014, 02:08:50 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on October 21, 2014, 03:23:43 pm
Your game of playing fallacy of the middle ground between the "west" and RF is old and tired. Keep defending the "democracy" that is increasingly consolidating and centralizing power and control over all forms of media backed by populist rage and military masturbation while hilariously claiming "fascism" and brainwashing in the "west" is just as bad. Gorbachev and the end of the Cold War [...]
No one person said the words you are putting in my mouth, you are merely using anything contrary to your opinion as an excuse to eject your densely packed thoughts into a condensed pile of shitposts, like always.

You're too easy to predict Oberyn :lol:

Or as Christo said:

Quote from: Christo on October 21, 2014, 03:24:52 pm
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Quote from: Thomek on October 22, 2014, 08:07:03 pm
I spoke today with a guy just coming from Ukraine. Says the war is escalating there.

Cant wait for the thread to go back to "who started to bombard first" subject  8-)

Still dont understand really how can a ceasefire can stay theoretically in effect and everyone sees/hears/knows that people are still dying from bullets/shells/missiles left and right. I would understand a few uncontrolled skirmishes and people dying from light arms, but thats full scale controlled military decisions from both sides! THAT is orwellian. Noone is trying to force them to officially void the ceasefire in case they continue to be stubborn?
Didnt there was negotiations recently? And what was the outcome? Any details would be welcome! There is so few recent informations filtering in the medias as of late. Maybe it means we will avoid cold war #2  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on October 23, 2014, 04:06:56 am
The intelligent people I know from Ukraine.  (award winning filmmakers..) See this as one sided rape from Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 23, 2014, 06:34:50 am
Quote from: Butan on October 23, 2014, 03:11:06 am
I see more things from my basement than you from the frontlines of your daily virtual war  :D
You really dont and it shows bigtime. And its not a daily virtual war. Which is something you would be aware of if you werent living in your basement. Not a big hint, but the fact that not a single person here agrees with even one statement you made sofar should really give some clue.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on October 23, 2014, 01:24:38 pm
I present you a new
DOC,U MENTAL?Y!
from RT!

Now Tovi will finally have a proper documentary for TRUTH! Mind you, its even "UNTOLD" one, so a proper "underdog" and not some mainstream shit!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 23, 2014, 01:31:40 pm
Man the commentpage is just rich.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on October 23, 2014, 01:42:14 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 23, 2014, 01:24:38 pm
I present you a new
DOC,U MENTAL?Y!
from RT!

Now Tovi will finally have a proper documentary for TRUTH! Mind you, its even "UNTOLD" one, so a proper "underdog" and not some mainstream shit!

15k views, this is not a legit source anymore
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 23, 2014, 07:14:37 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on October 23, 2014, 01:24:38 pm
I present you a new
DOC,U MENTAL?Y!
from RT!

Now Tovi will finally have a proper documentary for TRUTH! Mind you, its even "UNTOLD" one, so a proper "underdog" and not some mainstream shit!

I've never said RT was the voice of Truth. Just an interesting different point of vue. You and me can't actually know what really happened.
I was not talking about this incident but about the war around Donetsk. Because thousands of people are dying under massive bombings. You cannot say this behavior is ok while the same repressive mesures, commited by El Assad, are monstrous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on October 23, 2014, 07:21:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 23, 2014, 07:14:37 pm
Just an interesting different point of vue. You and me can't actually know what really happened.
Ahahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 23, 2014, 08:12:34 pm
Like I've said before, the saddest part about all this is that Tovi is 40+ years old. I truly have nothing but pity for him at this point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 23, 2014, 08:32:32 pm
Holy shit his 40+? I thought he was 15 max.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 23, 2014, 09:57:42 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 23, 2014, 08:32:32 pm
Holy shit his 40+? I thought he was 15 max.

He was 20 in 1990, cause that's what generation he his. Don't you remember insulting/making fun of tovi for his Generation concepts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 24, 2014, 02:11:47 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 23, 2014, 06:34:50 am
Not a big hint, but the fact that not a single person here agrees with even one statement you made sofar should really give some clue.


Well... there was ups and downs! And I dont stop at people acknowledging me for the true messiah else I would not be able to post on the internet for a long time  :P


Quote from: Xant on October 23, 2014, 08:12:34 pm
Like I've said before, the saddest part about all this is that Tovi is 40+ years old. I truly have nothing but pity for him at this point.


Thats a bit sad to go that far to discredit a man, whatever his fail arguments  :evil:
I dont need to know your age to feel pity, you can be between 7 or 77 years and it doesnt change the fact you spew mostly bullshit : thats my generation concept  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 24, 2014, 03:12:02 am
Xant, Tovi...are you two fuckwits still going?  Shitposting for a few pages is fine and dandy but its as if you two are married and have kids.  Not just normal kids, sperm donor test tube babies.

Was fun for a while but what the fuck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 24, 2014, 05:36:00 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 23, 2014, 09:57:42 pm
He was 20 in 1990, cause that's what generation he his. Don't you remember insulting/making fun of tovi for his Generation concepts.
Honestly, theres so much to make fun of, its hard to keep track. Its like having arguments with Tommy Wiseau or smthing...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 24, 2014, 09:42:51 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on October 24, 2014, 03:12:02 am
Xant, Tovi...are you two fuckwits still going?
Oh yes, I'm so active in this thread. On top of everything else, you're reading-retarded?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 24, 2014, 03:21:02 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 24, 2014, 09:42:51 am
Oh yes, I'm so active in this thread. On top of everything else, you're reading-retarded?

lol you come back every single time
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 24, 2014, 04:30:07 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on October 24, 2014, 03:21:02 pm
lol you cum back every single time

Just like you do for leshma. :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 24, 2014, 05:14:38 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on October 24, 2014, 04:30:07 pm
Just like you do for leshma. :wink:

He at least doesn't keep records of prior posts dating back years, so there's that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 24, 2014, 07:16:45 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 24, 2014, 09:42:51 am
Oh yes, I'm so active in this thread.

I would say its not an activity/quantity issue, more like a too high shitpost ratio :P



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 24, 2014, 07:28:24 pm
Quote from: Butan on October 24, 2014, 07:16:45 pm
I would say its not an activity/quantity issue, more like a too high shitpost ratio :P



(click to show/hide)
Wow, that was boring. I hope you didn't spend too much time thinking about that comeback.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 24, 2014, 07:47:48 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 24, 2014, 07:28:24 pm
Wow, that was boring. I hope you didn't spend too much time thinking about that comeback.

Awful, at least make an attempt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on October 25, 2014, 02:54:12 pm
You're right , I'm loosing my time with stupid uneducated kids. I'm the only one to bring informations to this thread. Others just insults anyone who don't hate russians. I've better things to do to waste my time in a video game forum.
I was here only to chat with some international people, but obviously the public is too young.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 25, 2014, 02:59:51 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 25, 2014, 02:54:12 pm
I was here only to chat with some international people, but obviously the public is too young.

Quote from: Tovi on October 25, 2014, 02:54:12 pm
I'm the only one to bring informations to this thread

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 25, 2014, 06:12:43 pm
Quote from: Tovi on October 25, 2014, 02:54:12 pm
You're right , I'm loosing my time with stupid uneducated kids.
Yes, your education is truly showing. By the way, it's actually "losing", not "loosing." Must've been a typo, knowing how well educated you are.

Quote
I'm the only one to bring informations to this thread. Others just insults anyone who don't hate russians. I've better things to do to waste my time in a video game forum.
I was here only to chat with some international people, but obviously the public is too young.
Now, now, Tovi. We all know you can't stay away from this thread. You've already banned yourself once but your self-discipline just wasn't enough to enforce it.

However, if you're really not going to "bring informations" (actually information, no S), then, well, good riddance. Nobody wants to hear your crap, like you've been told a thousand times in this thread. So your martyr act is absurd.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 25, 2014, 06:24:12 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 25, 2014, 06:12:43 pm
We all know you can't stay away from this thread.

We all know you can't stay away from this thread.

Nice shit tossing man 10/10, would read again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 25, 2014, 08:46:46 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on October 25, 2014, 06:24:12 pm
We all know you can't stay away from this thread.

Nice shit tossing man 10/10, would read again

You remind me of myself a few months ago, the first times I met Master Troll Xant.
I answered him with his own lapidary messages history from various different threads, but those I used were days/weeks old so he never detected me  :mrgreen:  would do it again   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 25, 2014, 10:11:46 pm
So... you two are like, what, ten? I think that's the age when aping what someone said was funny.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 26, 2014, 06:40:11 am
Quote from: Tovi on October 25, 2014, 02:54:12 pm
You're right , I'm loosing my time with stupid uneducated kids. I'm the only one to bring informations to this thread. Others just insults anyone who don't hate russians. I've better things to do to waste my time in a video game forum.
I was here only to chat with some international people, but obviously the public is too young.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Nomatter what forum or thread you would post your "informations", they would laugh their ass off and tell you to leave. Your views and understanding of the world is farfetched, too one sided(wierd cause you mainly accuse others of this) and straight up retarded. Old or young, West or East, educated or uneducated, majority of people with brains would agree that you are messed up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 26, 2014, 11:54:14 am
And smoking cigarettes at 40. Seriously dude, your room stinks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 26, 2014, 05:15:49 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 26, 2014, 11:54:14 am
And smoking cigarettes at 40. Seriously dude, your room stinks.

Leave it to eurotrash to be so lacking in wit that while debating an alex jones/RT disciple they actually have to resort to attacking the poster's age and personal choices like smoking that anyone is *FREE* to make for themselves.

It doesn't matter how old or disgustingly unhealthy you are, in a world led by America you are free to believe and argue over whatever stupid shit you want. Something I don't think a majority of Europeans understand.. leading to this Ukrainian crisis to begin with. At least it seems like most Eastern europeans, after America helped them free themselves from Soviet oppression, long for or protect and appreciate their freedom more than the truly backwards western continental europe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 26, 2014, 05:17:43 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 26, 2014, 05:15:49 pm
It doesn't matter how old or disgustingly unhealthy you are, in a world led by America you are free to believe and argue over whatever stupid shit you want.
Hahahahah
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 26, 2014, 08:57:35 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 26, 2014, 05:15:49 pm
Leave it to eurotrash to be so lacking in wit that while debating an alex jones/RT disciple they actually have to resort to attacking the poster's age and personal choices like smoking that anyone is *FREE* to make for themselves.

It doesn't matter how old or disgustingly unhealthy you are, in a world led by America you are free to believe and argue over whatever stupid shit you want. Something I don't think a majority of Europeans understand.. leading to this Ukrainian crisis to begin with. At least it seems like most Eastern europeans, after America helped them free themselves from Soviet oppression, long for or protect and appreciate their freedom more than the truly backwards western continental europe.

I suppose that's you trying to troll someone. But in case this is not sarcastic, I'll let you know that I was demonstrating Tovi being a total cliché.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on October 27, 2014, 02:28:07 pm
You're a bit too americano-centric to be taken serious Smoothrich  :mrgreen:

If the world was "led" by almost any other country in the world, except the craziest isolationist tyrannical ones, it would have the same effect on humanity being very quick to believe and argue over whatever stupid shit that come to pass.
Which is debatedly a good thing  :P

But certainly, USA being what it is is not an argument against freedom in the world, that I give you!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on October 29, 2014, 04:40:11 am
All I know about communism is what i learned from Television and oniline forums. In a Communistic society you get taken out side your house and shot in front of your family every morning. Also Communists ban pickup trucks and forces people to drive hybrids like Toyota Prius. If you think you have become communist it helps to go to the church and pary it out. Monsanto also says that it helps to eat a lot of unlabled GMO food, this is because they contain Agent Orange, a vitamin used in the Vietnam war to kill Communists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on October 29, 2014, 08:03:41 am
Quote from: Tovi on October 25, 2014, 02:54:12 pm
You're right , I'm loosing my time with stupid uneducated kids. I'm the only one to bring informations to this thread. Others just insults anyone who don't hate russians. I've better things to do to waste my time in a video game forum.
I was here only to chat with some international people, but obviously the public is too young.

please don't go I believe you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on October 30, 2014, 10:45:46 pm
What's fucking sad is that the most posted thread on the forum is the Chaos faction thread which has been here since 2011 but this thread which popped up at the end of 2013 is the 2nd most posted thread ever on the forum and all it consists of is Russians spreading Russian biased, Kremlin, Putin loving propaganda and either Westerners agreeing, disagreeing or shoving their crappy opinions down peoples throats.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on October 30, 2014, 10:57:42 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on October 30, 2014, 10:45:46 pm
What's fucking said is that the most posted thread on the forum is the Chaos faction thread which has been here since 2011 but this thread which popped up at the end of 2013 is the 2nd most posted thread ever on the forum and all it consists of is Russians spreading Russian biased, Kremlin, Putin loving propaganda and either Westerners agreeing, disagreeing or shoving their crappy opinions down peoples throats.

This is the essence of the internet, don't knock it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 01, 2014, 12:31:37 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/ (http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/)

Ruskies getting way too cheeky man.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 01, 2014, 12:40:09 pm
Quote from: Christo on November 01, 2014, 12:31:37 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/ (http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/)

Ruskies getting way too cheeky man.
Yes ukranian officials claimed that he killed 50 civilians and paid 1000 dollars for the head, so called 50000$ safari. Evil ruskies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 01, 2014, 12:41:28 pm
You don't fire machineguns in a press outfit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 01, 2014, 12:43:09 pm
Quote from: Christo on November 01, 2014, 12:41:28 pm
You don't fire machineguns in a press outfit.
I know, that it's his fault. Dumb action from him. And about what ukranian officials claimed, that was not a joke. Nice try
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 01, 2014, 02:49:42 pm
Quote from: Christo on November 01, 2014, 12:31:37 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/ (http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/)

Ruskies getting way too cheeky man.

Havent they always been? The news is absolutely piling up with Russians breaking airspace practially at everything they border during this week alone. It's really wierd how their MILITARYequipment always ends up getting "lost" over the border into someone elses lands and they are all like "whats the big deal dude, you are getting mad over nothing, this is West provoking us!!!!!!" And when something of some CIVILIAN aircraft or boat gets lost in theirs, they are like "this is a big deal, West is provoking us!!!!!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on November 01, 2014, 02:57:08 pm
"Fired toward Ukrainian lines", reported casualties: sand, dirt and birds.

Having participated in terrorist actions with "press" tag on the back of his helmet, the russian action star share the fate of the insurgents in eastern ukraine : interpol arrest and extradition to Ukraine, because war is a crime that needs be punished.






 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 01, 2014, 03:33:11 pm
Quote from: Christo on November 01, 2014, 12:31:37 pm
http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/ (http://mashable.com/2014/10/31/russian-action-star-ukraine/)

Ruskies getting way too cheeky man.

As much as I bash russia, this is one of those times I could, actually, be on the side of the actor. During times of war or otherwise, famous figures go out to the front lines to cheer up troops and spend time with them. These people, sometimes, grab guns and shoot or spend time with the guys fighting, while wearing a different outfit. In this case, it seems like he was a guy who went out there and was playing "cheer up" with the soldiers and they let him shoot a gun and they all had a good time.

Course, we don't know if he "actually" shot anyone, but people have done this kind of stuff before so it's not new.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 01, 2014, 05:05:59 pm
In press outfits too?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on November 02, 2014, 03:08:05 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 02, 2014, 08:09:27 pm
Elections under barrels of machine guns and for food in Donbass
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on November 02, 2014, 08:32:47 pm
Quote
Elections under barrels of machine guns and for food in Donbass

So, they didn't give some document at those elections that is supposed to grant privileges and payments?
And is this photo fake?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204006273049881&set=a.1310171067089.2047113.1014977808&type=1&theater
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 02, 2014, 08:37:12 pm
Quote from: serr on November 02, 2014, 08:32:47 pm
So, they didn't give some document at those elections that is supposed to grant privileges and payments?
And is this photo fake?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204006273049881&set=a.1310171067089.2047113.1014977808&type=1&theater
Don't know, ask Anatoliy Shariy, he knows)
IMHO
1) Russian convoy's food
2) Donbass Militia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on November 02, 2014, 08:41:16 pm
Quote
IMHO
1) Russian convoy's food
2) Donbass Militia

I have the same opinion, but doesn't it prove
Quote
Elections under barrels of machine guns and for food in Donbass
?

I don't say that those people wouldn't come to elections without that food or that they wouldn't vote for Zaharchenko without "militia". But still, there was food they received there and there were people with guns.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 02, 2014, 08:44:03 pm
Quote from: serr on November 02, 2014, 08:41:16 pm
I have the same opinion, but doesn't it prove?
That what is written in ukranian press. I think that's a sarcasm from Shariy
And ofcourse there will be the food, because it was before and will be after, as the militia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on November 02, 2014, 08:52:14 pm
Quote
And ofcourse there will be the food, because it was before and will be after, as the militia

At election stations?
Week ago we had parliament elections and on some stations in Donetsk region(in those parts we control) there were people with guns and that was quite bad.
But trust me, there weren't any stations where people would give away food.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 02, 2014, 08:58:43 pm
Quote from: serr on November 02, 2014, 08:52:14 pm
At election stations?
Week ago we had parliament elections and on some stations in Donetsk region(in those parts we control) there were people with guns and that was quite bad.
But trust me, there weren't any stations where people would give away food.
If Donbass have enough food to feed all people came to vote, then it's nice IMHO. Yes it can be used as a political motivation. And as you said, they would come anyways, so don't see anything bad in giving the food, my aunt is living in Luhansk, and grandma in Kiev. And I know what propoganda is using there, as Shariy used to show it everyday. This propoganda will not make Ukraine united. It makes it only separate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on November 02, 2014, 09:07:25 pm
Quote
If Donbass have enough food to feed all people came to vote, then it's nice IMHO. Yes it can be used as a political motivation. And as you said, they would come anyways, so don't see anything bad in giving the food, my aunt is living in Luhansk, and grandma in Kiev. And I know what propoganda is using there, as Shariy used to show it everyday. This propoganda will not make Ukraine united. It makes it only separate.

Nothing bad - probably, but it looks ridiculous. As for propaganda - that's true and it applies equally to both sides. However in this particular case ukrainian media didn't have to make anything up as there were people with guns at stations and there was food giveaway.

Quote
If Donbass have enough food to feed all people came to vote, then it's nice IMHO. Yes it can be used as a political motivation.
Should those who don't want to vote starve to death?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 02, 2014, 09:19:18 pm
Quote from: serr on November 02, 2014, 09:07:25 pm
Nothing bad - probably, but it looks ridiculous. As for propaganda - that's true and it applies equally to both sides. However in this particular case ukrainian media didn't have to make anything up as there were people with guns at stations and there was food giveaway.
Should those who don't want to vote starve to death?
But it sounds like, if you won't vote you will be shot and killed by starve, well I can say that it is far away from the truth. It is used only for demonization. Yatsenyuk and Poroshenko also used silence day to lobby themselves, well it is some kind of food, but IMHO real food is better)
And about food, this is filmed by not prorussian man, he is paid by Shariy, he is a journalist of Shariy
So, I think there were places where food was given, but seems that it was not for voters
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 03, 2014, 08:59:26 am
Quote from: Butan on November 01, 2014, 02:57:08 pm
"Fired toward Ukrainian lines", reported casualties: sand, dirt and birds.

Having participated in terrorist actions with "press" tag on the back of his helmet, the russian action star share the fate of the insurgents in eastern ukraine : interpol arrest and extradition to Ukraine, because war is a crime that needs be punished.
 :mrgreen:

When was the last time your some random star in France firer mashineguns in the direction of police and got NOT prosecuted for that? I think its a fair and square reaction from Ukraine to prosecute such BS. At least his sorry ass will not leave russia for a good long while due to fears of being arrested :)

Also, some reputable sources right here:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Bonus material on elections:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY5rZWmIoJQ#t=36
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 03, 2014, 11:31:59 am
Quote from: Kuujis on November 03, 2014, 08:59:26 am
Bonus material on elections:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY5rZWmIoJQ#t=36
Comment from Anatoliy Shariy:
"Well, if everything, on what were honored, it is the clumsy fake with verification of the bulletin removed by efforts of troupe from a teroborona battalion with the plate of "DNR" and "booths" curtained by old sheets that, to see, absolutely has no creative.
The collective farm drives, we know how to stir, and isn't able to create a beautiful fake. However, marginalos brutales gobbled it up."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 03, 2014, 04:57:44 pm
Press secretary of National Security and Defense Council Information and analysis center Andrey Lysenko:
"About the farce of these pseudo-elections even that among those who voted on them, there were domestic animals... Also for providing "a mass appearance" in the course of "vote" under the guise of "civilians" the military personnel of Russian Armed Forces took a part"
 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 03, 2014, 06:45:18 pm
It makes more sense translated in dotsies

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 03, 2014, 06:55:48 pm
If people are dumb, then they won't understand any translation  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 03, 2014, 07:01:40 pm
Learn http://dotsies.org/ !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 03, 2014, 07:05:03 pm
Learnt. what next?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 03, 2014, 07:10:08 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 03, 2014, 07:15:24 pm
Re: dotsies

Kafein where do you find this shit my eyes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 03, 2014, 07:18:17 pm
I took something like an hour reading through the whole page and now I can read it without help. It's actually easy, like he says.

Where I find it? Awesome coworkers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on November 03, 2014, 10:01:11 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 03, 2014, 04:57:44 pm
Press secretary of National Security and Defense Council Information and analysis center Ivani4:
"About the farce of these pseudo-elections even that among those who voted on them, there were domestic animals... Also for providing "a mass appearance" in the course of "vote" under the guise of "civilians" the military personnel of Russian Armed Forces took a part"

fixed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 06, 2014, 09:56:43 am
School is shelled, the boy from interview says that 3 of them were seriously injured, one of them almost without a leg, and two children were killed. His mother asks Poroshenko to come to Donbass with his son, and Zaharchenko to push soldiers out of Donbass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on November 06, 2014, 01:35:23 pm
Am I the only one who doesn't really care anymore?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 06, 2014, 01:54:37 pm
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2014, 01:35:23 pm
Am I the only one who doesn't really care anymore?
I thought, you didn't care about it previous, my aunt lives in Donbass, so I care. You don't care until it touches you, yeah?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on November 06, 2014, 02:08:53 pm
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2014, 01:35:23 pm
Am I the only one who doesn't really care anymore?

Good vs Evil is so much more entertaining, I understand it becomes less appealing to the masses when people become aware that its far more complex and ambiguous.

Get away from common thought process and come back and approach the situation with the objective to know whats really happening, it will become interesting again...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 06, 2014, 03:13:16 pm
German newspaper FAZ on September 21, 2013 (when Ukraine was still fine): "The NATO thinks about its future after the pullout from Afghanistan. [...] For some time, the NATO sees itself confronted with a question, which is anything but irrelevant for a military alliance: What to do without war? At the end of the next year the alliance wants the combat troops to be pulled out from Afghanistan, the process is in full swing. If there won't be another large scale operation, and that's probable because of the combat fatigue in the West, the alliance won't be in an armed conflict for the first time for more than 10 years. Especially military officers are concerned about this. "How to retain the operational capability when the troops are back in the barracks?", leading officers wonder. A first, to outsiders possibly suprising answer is: By fighting a battle against Russia."

This is what the FAZ wrote on September 21, 2013 about discussions of high ranked military officers of the NATO.


Edit: The author of this article, Nikolas Busse, became NATO correspondent and the deputy head of FAZ's foreign affairs after he strongly supported the US in the Iraq war in 2003. Got this info from another interview with Udo Ulfkotte.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on November 06, 2014, 03:45:31 pm
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2014, 01:35:23 pm
Am I the only one who doesn't really care anymore?

Putin wins.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on November 06, 2014, 04:14:44 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 06, 2014, 03:13:16 pm
German newspaper FAZ on September 21, 2013 (when Ukraine was still fine): "The NATO thinks about its future after the pullout from Afghanistan. [...] For some time, the NATO sees itself confronted with a question, which is anything but irrelevant for a military alliance: What to do without war? At the end of the next year the alliance wants the combat troops to be pulled out from Afghanistan, the process is in full swing. If there won't be another large scale operation, and that's probable because of the combat fatigue in the West, the alliance won't be in an armed conflict for the first time for more than 10 years. Especially military officers are concerned about this. "How to retain the operational capability when the troops are back in the barracks?", leading officers wonder. A first, to outsiders possibly suprising answer is: By fighting a battle against Russia."

This is what the FAZ wrote on September 21, 2013 about discussions of high ranked military officers of the NATO.

Funny, because this is not a NATO war, nor will it become one. It is a war where Russia fucks over Ukraine for "misbehaving". It's really desperate when you resort to some western newspaper from some random journalist when there's an actual war going on, with one aggressor state. Russia is the reason and the cause for this war, and all the blood is on its hands. (Putins..)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on November 06, 2014, 04:20:06 pm
Quote from: Butan on November 06, 2014, 02:08:53 pm
Good vs Evil is so much more entertaining, I understand it becomes less appealing to the masses when people become aware that its far more complex and ambiguous.

Get away from common thought process and come back and approach the situation with the objective to know whats really happening, it will become interesting again...
You're so thick sometimes, it's hard to believe.
It had never been Good vs Evil for me but whatever you like to believe, dude... Just :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 06, 2014, 05:53:46 pm
Quote from: Thomek on November 06, 2014, 04:14:44 pm
Russia is the reason and the cause for this war, and all the blood is on its hands. (Putins..)

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 06, 2014, 07:39:33 pm
Quote from: Thomek on November 06, 2014, 04:14:44 pm
Russia is the reason and the cause for this war, and all the blood is on its hands. (Putins..)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 06, 2014, 08:38:45 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 06, 2014, 03:13:16 pm
German newspaper FAZ on September 21, 2013 (when Ukraine was still fine): "The NATO thinks about its future after the pullout from Afghanistan. [...] For some time, the NATO sees itself confronted with a question, which is anything but irrelevant for a military alliance: What to do without war? At the end of the next year the alliance wants the combat troops to be pulled out from Afghanistan, the process is in full swing. If there won't be another large scale operation, and that's probable because of the combat fatigue in the West, the alliance won't be in an armed conflict for the first time for more than 10 years. Especially military officers are concerned about this. "How to retain the operational capability when the troops are back in the barracks?", leading officers wonder. A first, to outsiders possibly suprising answer is: By fighting a battle against Russia."

This is what the FAZ wrote on September 21, 2013 about discussions of high ranked military officers of the NATO.


Edit: The author of this article, Nikolas Busse, became NATO correspondent and the deputy head of FAZ's foreign affairs after he strongly supported the US in the Iraq war in 2003. Got this info from another interview with Udo Ulfkotte.

Even a 7 year old would quess something like this. If NATO really wants to send troops somewhere it can easly do so. Theres loads of countries nobody has barely heard of and doesnt give a shit about it could invade and loads of conflicts happening all the time everywhere it could interfere. There is no battle with Russia, nor is there ever going to be one. Worst case scenario, more playing chicken with nukes. But not actual confrontation between the 2.

"NATO doesnt want its troops to stay in barrackses so they want to start a war with Russia." What a load of shit. It physically hurts me that grown people say something so fully retarded with dead seriusness. NATO/Russia war is not some random thing anyone on the planet Earth could just sweep under the rug and forget. It would be the endwar. Lots of good would that troopexperience do when we are all dead. NATO would have to be officially governed by suicidal retards(if they were the agressors in that case), for something like that to happen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 06, 2014, 09:49:10 pm
Quote from: Tibe on November 06, 2014, 08:38:45 pm
Even a 7 year old would quess something like this. If NATO really wants to send troops somewhere it can easly do so. Theres loads of countries nobody has barely heard of and doesnt give a shit about it could invade and loads of conflicts happening all the time everywhere it could interfere. There is no battle with Russia, nor is there ever going to be one. Worst case scenario, more playing chicken with nukes. But not actual confrontation between the 2.

"NATO doesnt want its troops to stay in barrackses so they want to start a war with Russia." What a load of shit. It physically hurts me that grown people say something so fully retarded with dead seriusness. NATO/Russia war is not some random thing anyone on the planet Earth could just sweep under the rug and forget. It would be the endwar. Lots of good would that troopexperience do when we are all dead. NATO would have to be officially governed by suicidal retards(if they were the agressors in that case), for something like that to happen.


Well, I still think that the NATO leaders and other highly responsible persons want a war against Russia. And as long as the West continues escalating the situation, I will not deviate from that opinion. Fortunately, people aren't that stupid so the top-tier people can't go ahead with their war propaganda properly (MH17).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 06, 2014, 09:58:44 pm

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


It's just a horrible progress!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 06, 2014, 10:12:56 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 06, 2014, 09:49:10 pm

Well, I still think that the NATO leaders and other highly responsible persons want a war against Russia. And as long as the West continues escalating the situation, I will not deviate from that opinion. Fortunately, people aren't that stupid so the top-tier people can't go ahead with their war propaganda properly (MH17).
Escalating how? Who besides Russia ever claimed that Ukraine was entirely 100% theirs to do with as they please? Cause this is Russias main statement: "its ours, fuck off!". The only way West escalated the situation is by proving it to be a false statement. Clearly Ukraine wants to be a country, cause before it was not a country. It was an extension of Russia. Kinda like Belarus is not a country, but more in the line of a province. And before you act like idiot Tovi and say "EU is same", its definately not. And how is the MH17 thing still a subject? The separatists unknowingly pretty much admitted shooting down the plane via social networks. Honestly theres little debate about that one imo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 07, 2014, 12:28:53 am
In mother Russia truth believes you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 07, 2014, 12:42:09 am
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2014, 01:35:23 pm
Am I the only one who doesn't really care anymore?
Nope, I think most people don't care anymore. It's exactly what Putin wanted to achieve, and it's exactly why a slow "low frequency" war is so good in modern times. If you just slowly take over territory, nobody will really care after a while, all the outrage will be spent. The trick is to make the initial outrage be small enough to prevent intervention.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 07, 2014, 12:43:45 am
Fucker knows how the BadBoy system worked too much
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 02:46:39 am
Quote from: Tibe on November 06, 2014, 10:12:56 pm
And how is the MH17 thing still a subject? The separatists unknowingly pretty much admitted shooting down the plane via social networks.

Okay, then it's clearly 100% evil Putin's fault! Now we can invade Russia with Ukrainian Sukhoi Su-25 (if they still got some ammo left in their guns) and Ukrainian BUK anti-air missiles on the border of the planeless rebels! Especially Germans are happy about a war against Russia. :rolleyes:

What I actually meant is that the MH17 case was something like the Cuba Crisis 1962. War could have easily been declared due to that false flag operation (not applying to the Cuba Crisis!) and due to the overwhelming proof coming from US side. But the case was pulled back after a short time of anti-Russian agitation. Why? Because most people aren't that stupid anymore. Don't forget about the snipers on Maidan on February 20, Odessa on May 2, the Ukrainian airstrike on Lugansk on June 2, the voting in eastern Ukraine on August 11 - when Putin vainly tried to convince the pro-Russian rebels to reschedule the voting, and don't forget the made up Russian military vehicles on August 14/15. Oh and all these 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine... All these things were shortly used for anti-Russian agitation but what happened after this short time and what's up with it now? Just silence. Instead there are more and more sanctions imposed.


Quote from: Tibe on November 06, 2014, 10:12:56 pm
And before you act like idiot Tovi and say "EU is same", its definately not.

"...and, you know, fuck the EU."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on November 07, 2014, 03:26:08 am
You clearly live in an alternate reality and are not able to think for yourself Anuran.

Regardless what any media says. All facts and actions point to rebels shooting down MH17. Not that it matters that much, it was most surely an accidental shootdown. (Lol that you believe in the SU-25 btw. It is an aircraft EXTREMELY unsuitable for shooting down passenger planes. It would take planning and an excellent pilot to squeeze the plane to that altitude and do an intercept, something wildly theoretical. Something SU-25 pilots never train in, because that's not their purpose.. )

Please explain if you are trolling, just retarded, or actually believe all the crap RF state controlled media throws at you.

nvm.. Actually I'm more interested in why you feel your beliefs must be true. Understanding the psychology, actually the mass brainwashing going on is more interesting.

What buttons are RF media pushing in you?

Because.. TBH, I don't really care about Ukraine or Russia, other than common human compassion. What shocks me however is how much support Putin gains, and I wonder how he does it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 07, 2014, 03:48:25 am
SU-25 is a ground attack plane, right?

A lot of damn things russian are SU, hard to keep it in mind sometimes.

Just going with my gut here, tempting to be wiki-smart but iirc that's what it was made for.

Edit: Okay, going to cheat a bit, let's see.

The SU-25 has a service ceiling of 7000 meters.

MH17 was flying at above 10.000 meters.

It has no afterburner, no A2A missiles because of the role it's used in generally, it can be fitted with some close range but those aren't effective at intercepting another plane. Hell the entire airframe isn't made for interception.

So tell me how the hell did the SU-25 close in the distance to take pin point accurate shots with the 30mm cannon?


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 07, 2014, 05:33:55 am
Guys why don't you discuss a videos Anuran has posted?
IMHO on that video there is people acting like a real na zis.
And what about the video I've posted about the shelled school?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 05:35:07 am
Quote from: Thomek on November 07, 2014, 03:26:08 am
You clearly live in an alternate reality and are not able to think for yourself Anuran.

An "alternate reality" doesn't have to be a wrong one. We just got different opinions. But it's not nice if you say I cannot think for myself only because I have a different opinion :( :D

Quote from: Thomek on November 07, 2014, 03:26:08 am
Please explain if you are trolling, just retarded, or actually believe all the crap RF state controlled media throws at you.

Now it's again Russian propaganda... I don't even know exactly what's coming from Russia... As long as conclusions are logical enough I could agree with them. That's quite logical I think...

Quote from: Thomek on November 07, 2014, 03:26:08 am
Understanding the psychology, actually the mass brainwashing going on is more interesting.

Yeah indeed. I am also always amazed when I notice how manipulative mainstream media can be. How they can change peoples' minds. I have recently seen a video from September 11, 2001. This video contained short clips of people and experts talking in German mass media about the terrorist act and most of them added that it can't only be the terrorists who did this. Maybe there was an intelligence agency involved, no one was warned when these planes entered the closed airspace, assumptions that it was not only bin Laden, the fact that the US supported bin Laden's organization etc. But nowadays this stuff is marked down as conspiracy theories...


Quote from: Thomek on November 07, 2014, 03:26:08 am
What shocks me however is how much support Putin gains, and I wonder how he does it.

Be it support or maintaining neutrality and objectivity: By figuring out Western propaganda and agitation. It's not even Putin doing it. It's us, the people, by ourselves. Yesterday RT German started on YouTube and it will soon start in TV, I am curious what effects this will have. We will probably have another propaganda channel but it's the completely opposite view and a danger to the already existing channels. RT is also announced to come in other european languages. In London posters of RT got forbidden (http://rt.com/uk/194520-rt-ads-redacted-london/)!
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Now to MH17: It is possible that it was the jet fighters. But it is also possible that it was a BUK missile system. The BUK system is more probable. However, some more proof would be nice, I mean Russia showed something, US didn't yet although they could. And what about the black box? Case MH17 completely disappeared from the news...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 07, 2014, 05:40:59 am
Quote from: DonNicko on November 07, 2014, 05:33:55 am
Guys why don't you discuss a videos Anuran has posted?

We can discuss whatever the hell we want.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 04:28:05 pm
Wow... Surprise! Russia invaded Ukraine. OSCE didn't confirm and Russia is again denying the accusation. But Kiev said it, that's enough proof! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 07, 2014, 05:08:27 pm
Noone in this thread has stated that Kievs word is gold, so your ironic tone has little effect. Infact Kievs words are about as truthful as the separatists and russians. Making shit up on the go and being completely bonkers. You can blame Nato and the West all you like, but the only one using its military in Ukr is Russia atm. While not an actual invasion, its pretty obvious unconventional warfare.

 I highly doubt this is some secret Western plan. Theres nothing to gain from Ukraine or from destabilizing/pissing off Russia. Russia was weak and poor before the crysis and its still weak and poor. And provoking actual nuclear war with them isnt gonna make anyone anymore richer either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on November 07, 2014, 05:27:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 07, 2014, 05:33:55 am
Guys why don't you discuss a videos Anuran has posted?
IMHO on that video there is people acting like a real na zis.
And what about the video I've posted about the shelled school?
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I "discussed the videos", now what?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 05:34:20 pm
Quote from: Tibe on November 07, 2014, 05:08:27 pm
You can blame Nato and the West all you like, but the only one using its military in Ukr is Russia atm.

Umm... actually there already were some NATO maneuvers in western Ukraine... And there are more and bigger ones to come (not only in Ukraine but in eastern Europe)


Quote from: Tibe on November 07, 2014, 05:08:27 pm
I highly doubt this is some secret Western plan. Theres nothing to gain from Ukraine or from destabilizing/pissing off Russia. Russia was weak and poor before the crysis and its still weak and poor.

Russia has much oil and gas and one particular country wants its currency to stay stable. And this country also hates if oil-rich and gas-rich countries offer their stuff in other currencies... Ukraine or the Ukraine crisis is only a means to an end. One does not simply risk a third World War by massive agitation against Russia out of nowhere or making up incidents just to blame the nuclear power Russia...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 07, 2014, 05:56:29 pm
And where did you read that. RT news? Atm there isnt in Ukraine. And yes, in Eastern-Europe. But you forget one  important fact here. NATO didnt really forcefully do these manovers in Eastern Europe. Pretty much every countries government in Eastern-Europe that lives next to Russia and isnt puppeted by Russia was nagging the shit out of NATO to send troops in. And they got barely any equipment and like measly few 100 to few 1000 american troops. Which is not an invasionforce, but rather a method of keeping the peace. Cause if you shoot a US troop you are gonna have a problem with the US. Nobody gives a crap about Ukrainian soldiers or any other smaller countries soldiers lives.

And why is it that every time something happens its automatically US and oil? Thats conspiracytheoristlevel factless assumption. I make this too: I wake up some morning and discover my car stolen, its pretty obviously CIA is behind this and they gave the car to a small buisness that uses it more regularly than I did, thereby they buy more oil and increase the demand and in return the dollar currency stays stable. See how easy it is?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 06:36:48 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on November 07, 2014, 05:27:33 pm
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I "discussed the videos", now what?

Let me say something concerning the Berlin video first: I don't think this is a neonazi march. That red flag one guy is carrying is probably one of the "Antifa" ("antifascist action", although "anti-German fascism" fits more). On this day usually left-wing extremists, autonomists, anarchists, communists and anti-Germans (Like "Bomber Harris do it again") do massive marches which aren't that peaceful... Such fascist left-wing extremism is far too underestimated here in Germany, just by the way.
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Now to all the videos: I don't think that children get manipulated like in Hitler's time in these countries. And such heavy neonazi-like anti-Russian agitation like it is spread in Ukrainian media is not existent in the videos' countries, I'm sure. Of course all that neonazi stuff is bad and a threat to society but in Ukraine it's something different. I can't exactly explain it but I have felt more concerned than I expected when I saw this... My gut instinct made me feel even more concerned.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 07, 2014, 06:37:38 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on November 07, 2014, 05:27:33 pm
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I "discussed the videos", now what?
Fuck that na zis, but I didn't hear there to hang russians(or some other nations) from children
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 09:49:56 pm
Quote from: Tibe on November 07, 2014, 05:56:29 pm
And where did you read that. RT news? Atm there isnt in Ukraine.

Yeeeees, RT...... Almost! German news proudly announcing the maneuver.

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So there is quite much NATO activity in Ukraine for years already! (Rapid Trident)



Quote from: Tibe on November 07, 2014, 05:56:29 pm
And they got barely any equipment and like measly few 100 to few 1000 american troops.

You are not talking about nowadays, are you? Spontaneously reminds me of:
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Quote from: Tibe on November 07, 2014, 05:56:29 pm
And why is it that every time something happens its automatically US and oil? Thats conspiracytheoristlevel factless assumption. I make this too: I wake up some morning and discover my car stolen, its pretty obviously CIA is behind this and they gave the car to a small buisness that uses it more regularly than I did, thereby they buy more oil and increase the demand and in return the dollar currency stays stable. See how easy it is?

Totally conspiracy theoretical. They handle their debts with oil and gas (and other things). Don't you ask yourself why Saudi Arabia, a non-democratic country, gets supported by the US (Arabia sells its oil for the worthless dollar to the US while the US protect them at pumping the oil) and other countries get bombed down "to bring democracy"? Or why Saddam Hussein gets supported by the West first, and when he starts to sell his oil in Euro instead of Dollar, the US make WMDs up to invade Iraq?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 07, 2014, 11:58:10 pm
It's theoretically a good thing to have more diverse journos, the problem is that even Fox does more ground work (largely due to US rule of law and separation of powers) than RT. RT exists only to spread the Kremlin narrative with only a pretense of critical analysis or investigation. The important part of unbiased journalism isn't having a "second opinion", it's to report truthfully on things that actually happen. This seems to be very hard to understand for people who have been listening to nothing but big lie media for decades, a prime example of which was the USSR media. My interpretation is that everybody very quickly learned that the media is telling bullshit and it gives them the intuition that all media are systematically lying to further a given agenda and that truth is fundamentally both inscrutable and worthless. This isn't the case at all when it comes to most Western media, as evidenced by the amount of huge scandals unveiled by the press. While the idea that "both truths are acceptable" is absurd to Westerners, it isn't to Russians. Any fairy tale being spouted by RT is another possibility among sources considered equally untrustworthy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on November 08, 2014, 03:04:33 am
Quote from: Kafein on November 07, 2014, 11:58:10 pm
It's theoretically a good thing to have more diverse journos, the problem is that even Fox does more ground work (largely due to US rule of law and separation of powers) than RT. RT exists only to spread the Kremlin narrative with only a pretense of critical analysis or investigation. The important part of unbiased journalism isn't having a "second opinion", it's to report truthfully on things that actually happen. This seems to be very hard to understand for people who have been listening to nothing but big lie media for decades, a prime example of which was the USSR media. My interpretation is that everybody very quickly learned that the media is telling bullshit and it gives them the intuition that all media are systematically lying to further a given agenda and that truth is fundamentally both inscrutable and worthless. This isn't the case at all when it comes to most Western media, as evidenced by the amount of huge scandals unveiled by the press. While the idea that "both truths are acceptable" is absurd to Westerners, it isn't to Russians. Any fairy tale being spouted by RT is another possibility among sources considered equally untrustworthy.

This! Very well written.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on November 08, 2014, 05:38:36 am
Its easy to spin a narrative using events to fit into a certain perspective. Most of us news junkies probably get half our kicks by looking at different news media and laughing at selective reporting of facts and cherry picking data can present an entirely different side of a story, and understand the value of following multiple sources of journalism to make your own mind. This is our right, a constitutionally protected freedom in America and I believe through most of Europe by their own system of laws. Freedom of the press, of speech, of discussing and sharing beliefs, of having real conversations. Sure corporate and other private interests do whatever they can to fuck it up for the rest, but we are damn free to call them out on it, to form organizations to represent our interests, to demand truths, and seek out injustices.

But in Russia, you are going to get fucking killed by the government if you are a dissident journalist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

Like forget about RT and shit for a second here. You get fucking hits put out on you, like you are in some sharia law Saudi Arabia bullshit country speaking out against Islam, if you begin saying the wrong things about the wrong powerful people in Russia. There is a fundamental lack of freedom of the press, and its shameful. And people wonder why so many of us scoff at "objective truths" from Russian media. Because people get fucking KILLED if they have the wrong truth!

Maybe we would have better international cooperation if the Russian state didn't act like the fucking mafia so brazenly, but that's prob impossible since Russia is run by criminals to begin with.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-cables-russia-mafia-kleptocracy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 08, 2014, 07:15:54 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 09:49:56 pm
Totally conspiracy theoretical. They handle their debts with oil and gas (and other things). Don't you ask yourself why Saudi Arabia, a non-democratic country, gets supported by the US (Arabia sells its oil for the worthless dollar to the US while the US protect them at pumping the oil) and other countries get bombed down "to bring democracy"? Or why Saddam Hussein gets supported by the West first, and when he starts to sell his oil in Euro instead of Dollar, the US make WMDs up to invade Iraq?

Ofcourse I ask myself that. But Saudi Arabia, Iraq and those other countries that got "democracy bombs" are not Russia. You cant bomb and invade Russia probably ever. And their country depends on oli and gas much more than anyone, unlike US, its basically 100% of Russias income. So I dont really see how destabilizing it would help the dollar. Cause the only way to shake Russia is to not buy its oil or drop the oil prices, at the same time fucking their own oilprofits. Clearly Russia has a lot of buyers wether the West likes it or not and they got gigantic supply of it to pump it in larger quantities to supplement the lower price if it ever happened.

So I dont really see how US, oil, Russia and Ukraine are related. Cause taking their oil equals nuclear war, so thats just never gonna happen. And tradepartners they have plenty and even when Russia is completely in ruins, even than they would pump their oil, because they have no other means of profit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 08, 2014, 04:05:49 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 07, 2014, 09:49:56 pm
Totally conspiracy theoretical. They handle their debts with oil and gas (and other things). Don't you ask yourself why Saudi Arabia, a non-democratic country, gets supported by the US (Arabia sells its oil for the worthless dollar to the US while the US protect them at pumping the oil) and other countries get bombed down "to bring democracy"? Or why Saddam Hussein gets supported by the West first, and when he starts to sell his oil in Euro instead of Dollar, the US make WMDs up to invade Iraq?

Oh, really, we buy most of our oil from Saudi?

of the 290k Barrels imported, 120k come from 2 countries in our sphere. Venzula and CANADA(more than half of all Imports) Mid-East Countries supply only 60k barrels 40% less than Canada alone. In addition, 89K Barrels come from NON-OPEC countries. (All per month, you can display this data in yearly to)

Please, fact check yourself before you pump out useless bullshit.
(We get 9k and 1k barrels from Iraq and Kuwait, way less than we produce domestically or import from our bestest friend Canada.)
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 08, 2014, 11:17:02 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on November 08, 2014, 04:05:49 pm
Oh, really, we buy most of our oil from Saudi?

of the 290k Barrels imported, 120k come from 2 countries in our sphere. Venzula and CANADA(more than half of all Imports) Mid-East Countries supply only 60k barrels 40% less than Canada alone. In addition, 89K Barrels come from NON-OPEC countries. (All per month, you can display this data in yearly to)

Please, fact check yourself before you pump out useless bullshit.
(We get 9k and 1k barrels from Iraq and Kuwait, way less than we produce domestically or import from our bestest friend Canada.)
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm (http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm)

Please tell me where I wrote that the US imports most of the oil from Saudi Arabia. However, I won't say anything against your figures.

Let me explain why I think the US is waging these wars just for getting mining rights in these resource-rich countries: the US have the highest debt in the world (almost 18 trillion US-$). And in this capitalistic system we live in, debt and assets grow exponentially due to the compound interest. Money is only existent (owned by the "1%", the more they own the mightier they are) if there is debt, you can't pay back all your debts as a state, otherwise there would be no money. Debts only appear if you borrow money. And if a state raises debts, they are shifted on the citizens since they have to pay for them (the "99%"). In German there is a funny and interesting wordplay: the German word for "citizen" and the word for "bail for sth." are the same. Would be something like "bailer" in English. Anyway, who should pay the interest the debt causes? Where to get the equivalent value from? One does not simply make up two big lies for two wars against a resource-rich country! Delaying the "payback" of debt only makes the situation more harsh. A good example is Greece. More than 170% debt-to-GDP ratio. The debt cut in 2011/2012 did not work at all. Look at all the protests in Europe or the Greek parliament. The Europe-splitter "Euro" will fall, so will the Dollar and thus the US hegemonial power due to the angry and furious people who get ousted and exploited. Sounds like a speech full of hatred - well, it is but it's what happens atm.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -Henry Ford

Or have you ever heard of the dynasty "Rothschild"? They own the FED among other families. FED is the privatized federal (yes, you heard right) bank in the US which can print money as much as it wants and thus it controls the Dollar. And, you know...
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"Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.” -Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the dynasty

"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests.” -Rothschild brothers of London, 1863
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 08, 2014, 11:51:23 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 08, 2014, 11:17:02 pm
Why exactly did you post that? To share some very embarrassing people spouting even more embarrassing crap at an old man? Seriously cringe-worthy, especially when they announce proudly that the "NEW WORLD ORDER HAS NO LEGITIMACY AND WE AS A PEOPLE ARE NOT AFRAID!!" So many different levels of retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 01:52:32 am
Quote from: Xant on November 08, 2014, 11:51:23 pm
Why exactly did you post that? To share some very embarrassing people spouting even more embarrassing crap at an old man? Seriously cringe-worthy, especially when they announce proudly that the "NEW WORLD ORDER HAS NO LEGITIMACY AND WE AS A PEOPLE ARE NOT AFRAID!!" So many different levels of retard.

You make fun of these guys while the Rothschild bankster laughs at you...


"New World Order, Mr. Rothschild?" - "Oh! Listen, who, who, who, who are you, who are you televising for?"

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 09, 2014, 02:16:27 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 01:52:32 am
You make fun of these guys while the Rothschild bankster laughs at you...

:lol:

It's good that we have another conspiracy nut here now that Tovi is gone. Maybe you should find a Rothschild banker as well and shout "I KNOW ABOUT UR NEW WORLD ORDR!!!! IM NOT AFRAID!!!!!!" while frothing at the mouth. That'll show him.  :D


Seriously, people like you will believe fucking anything. It's amazing how your conspiracy nut brains work. You post all these pointless videos and see ghosts and aliens and deep conspiracies in them, no matter what is actually happening or being said in them. Case in point, when the Rothschild is like "wat, who are these retards?" and asks who they're televising for to find out if he can just disregard them, you see some kind of admission of guilt. Pitiful and amusing at the same time. But I think we all know your conspiracy theories are just mental masturbation, you can pat yourself on the back for seeing through all these plots that the dumb sheeple don't, oh aren't you intelligent. Meanwhile, normal people laugh their asses off at you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 09, 2014, 02:21:32 am
Oh come on, Rotschilds are just one of the many big players when it comes to banking.

There are many, many other big players in that field, perhaps even bigger ones if we were to start comparing them

Each with their own agendas, different nationalities and values.

So, why pick out Rotschild only?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 03:50:52 am
Quote from: Christo on November 09, 2014, 02:21:32 am
So, why pick out Rotschild only?

Jews, that's why. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 09, 2014, 04:14:22 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 03:50:52 am
Jews, that's why. :lol:

That's the one constant I've noticed with a lot of these conspiracy types.  There's always an odd combination of anti-semitism and hatred of bankers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 09, 2014, 04:41:42 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 03:50:52 am
Jews, that's why. :lol:

I know, but that is a fucking retarded view on this  :lol:

And not only that but a very, very lazy and uneducated one as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 04:55:56 am
Quote from: Christo on November 09, 2014, 04:41:42 am
I know, but that is a fucking retarded view on this  :lol:

And not only that but a very, very lazy and uneducated one as well.

Are you agreeing, disagreeing or fondling sheep?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 09, 2014, 04:56:58 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 04:55:56 am
Are you agreeing, disagreeing or fondling sheep?

He's gonna hit the goats up next, hide yo livestock
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 09, 2014, 05:04:42 am
What  :shock:

I think that it's bullshit.

These eeevil big bankers are available in all sizes, gender, nationalities, and races.

Don't discriminate when it comes to them! It's rude! Either hate the whole bunch (even that is more reasonable than this) or don't hand pick based on bullshit like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 05:07:18 am
Quote from: Xant on November 09, 2014, 02:16:27 am
Seriously, people like you will believe fucking anything. It's amazing how your conspiracy nut brains work. You post all these pointless videos and see ghosts and aliens and deep conspiracies in them, no matter what is actually happening or being said in them.

I can only retort this to you. You are just on the "other side". :wink: I mean, you believe in Iraq's WMDs, in 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine and in children killer Netanjahu's warning:
(click to show/hide)

How can one even dare to discuss with you :rolleyes:



Quote from: Xant on November 09, 2014, 02:16:27 am
Meanwhile, normal people laugh their asses off at you.

I expected that to come at 100% :D Yeah, nowadays it's indeed unnormal or uncommon to question something different... People like me who actually question other things than people like you do are getting verbally suppressed, insulted and marked down as totally insane psychopaths (conspiracy theorists), also publicly, nationwide. That's for sure. But why? Isn't it in a democracy like everyone can say his opinion freely? Why are some critical voices silenced (if they speak against the published and often public opinion) and others aren't? By the way, I still wonder why I get downvoted if I am against public nazi propaganda which is also used on children. I rarely saw hatred against a person taking over someone that heavily, but okay, that's a different issue...




It's a deceptive title, but it's still interesting content (well that owl symbols etc. is bullshit but there are also people who beat around the bush...).

Or this one: watch from 6:03 to 9:32. The first part with the Kennedy speech is cut in favor of the uploader, I have heard the whole speech and he's rather talking about communism and the Cold War. Yes, I am able to face things which might counter my view on things afterwards.


And if you ever find quotations like "we just need the right major crisis" from David Rockefeller or "There is a plan going on to enslave everyone, I will expose this plan before I leave this office" from JFK: These two quotations are wrong and completely made up or pulled out of context. That's what I have found out when I found these two.



Quote from: Christo on November 09, 2014, 02:21:32 am
So, why pick out Rotschild only?

Because of the quotes I wrote. And Rothschild is the part I firstly heard something about, I am currently mostly interested in and it's the part I know most about in relation to the other parts.



Quote from: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 03:50:52 am
Jews, that's why. :lol:
Quote from: Christo on November 09, 2014, 04:41:42 am
I know, but that is a fucking retarded view on this  :lol:

Yeah, of course, come on, call me anti-Semite, nazi or whatever, just because I also help Jews by criticizing those banksters/robbers. :lol:



Just for information:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 09, 2014, 05:09:08 am
I didn't call you a chocolate chip cookie, or an antisemite.

Or you want me to? You get a hard-on from that or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 09, 2014, 05:17:07 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 05:07:18 am
Random lump of trollsy LOOMINATI JOOZ bullshit

Fixed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 05:45:17 am
Quote from: Christo on November 09, 2014, 05:04:42 am
What  :shock:

I think that it's bullshit.

These eeevil big bankers are available in all sizes, gender, nationalities, and races.

Don't discriminate when it comes to them! It's rude! Either hate the whole bunch (even that is more reasonable than this) or don't hand pick based on bullshit like that.

You never said bankers, just Rothchilds. Rothchild's are Jewish, and many believe in JEWMINATE bullshit, see above.

Also, Hide yo wife, hide sheep.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 09, 2014, 06:14:51 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 05:45:17 am
You never said bankers, just Rothchilds

Quote from: Christo on November 09, 2014, 02:21:32 am
Oh come on, Rotschilds are just one of the many big players when it comes to banking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 09, 2014, 08:19:04 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 05:07:18 am
I expected that to come at 100% :D Yeah, nowadays it's indeed unnormal or uncommon to question something different... People like me who actually question other things....

Once again its okay to question things. Its not okay to combine barely plausible public myths in your head and build your own worldview based on them. That my friend is exactly how nutjobs come to be.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 09, 2014, 11:11:16 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 05:07:18 am
Yeah, nowadays it's indeed unnormal or uncommon to question something different... People like me who actually question other things than people like you do are getting verbally suppressed, insulted and marked down as totally insane psychopaths (conspiracy theorists), also publicly, nationwide. That's for sure. But why? Isn't it in a democracy like everyone can say his opinion freely? Why are some critical voices silenced (if they speak against the published and often public opinion) and others aren't?

Your opinion gets 'silenced' (ignored) by many because it is just too dump. It is so dump that you don't know where to start.

And even if you don't think you are an anti semite you are falling for the same anti semite cliches that are being used since hundreds of years. I give Putin that, he knows what appeals to people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 09, 2014, 11:24:42 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 09, 2014, 04:14:22 am
That's the one constant I've noticed with a lot of these conspiracy types.  There's always an odd combination of anti-semitism and hatred of bankers.

Back in the 20th century it was Jew communists, though. Those millennia-old conspiracies are surprisingly malleable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on November 09, 2014, 11:34:15 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 05:07:18 am
I can only retort this to you. You are just on the "other side". :wink: I mean, you believe in Iraq's WMDs, in 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine and in children killer Netanjahu's warning:
[...]
I'd like you to quote Xant stating any of this.
You, on the other hand make it easy for us, posting all those silly, ridiculous videos which seem to reflect your opinions and beliefs.

You can hardly be surprised that we sling the bullshit you post right back into your face.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 09, 2014, 12:09:31 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 05:07:18 am
I can only retort this to you. You are just on the "other side". :wink: I mean, you believe in Iraq's WMDs, in 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine and in children killer Netanjahu's warning:
(click to show/hide)
You believe in Santa Claus and garden gnomes!! LOL!!! MAKING STUFF UP IS SO FUN AND MAKES YOUR POINT SO WELL!!!!!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 04:36:26 pm
Quote from: Christo on November 09, 2014, 02:21:32 am
So, why pick out Rotschild only?

Quote from: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 03:50:52 am
Jews, that's why. :lol:

Nope, never asked about bankers.Course, conspiratorists like bashing Jewish people who are wealthy. It's a pretty consistent.  (In addition to other things, but this is a very common thread in a lot of theories)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 08:13:20 pm
Look at all those anti-Semites!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 09, 2014, 09:26:39 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 08:13:20 pm
Look at all those anti-Semites!
(click to show/hide)

I didn't realize that voicing your opinion in opposition to what your church, religion, or race does is considered wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 10, 2014, 01:02:50 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 09, 2014, 08:13:20 pm
Look at all those anti-Semites!
(click to show/hide)
Look at your exact Tovi-ness, instantly moving on after your accusations are proven retarded.

So got any proof I believe in "Iraq's WMDs, in 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine and in children killer Netanjahu's warning"? If not, then you're just speaking out of your ass, confirmed. You make this too easy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 09:21:21 am
I apologize in advance for my language errors.

Quote from: Smoothrich on November 08, 2014, 05:38:36 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

I don't know why you post this list, yes, very many Russian journalists died, and some foreign journalists died on Russian territory too, but why on this list Russian journalists killed in foreigh countries? Why there many cases, what have nothing to do with they work? See list of journalists killed in USA, they not includet simular cases in this list. And deaths in millitary conflict... Lets face it, Russian war correspondent just much more brave and reckless (a.k.a. stupid), and it is expected from them. They report from 'first row', thing that make some British or USA war correspondent notable is just routine for Russian special correspondent.

I mean, there is more than 30 of murdered most likely because of their work and this is very big number. But why enmass it to two hundred using as source only extremely unreliable private magazines? And my father former journalist so I care.

Also, i have little doubt what some cases covered by goverment because they done by connected to them crime leaders, like cases in 1994 and 1995 years, but they not been ordered by Russian goverment. Actually Russian goverment started to care that written on pages and shown on TV only recently. I know, I live there.

And there is some interesting information, just cases then journalists killed by USA goverment order (by accident, but still)
Among the group were two Iraqi war correspondents working for Reuters, Saeed Chmagh and Namir Noor-Eldeen who had come to photograph an American Humvee under attack by the Mahdi Army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike
And link to the video under spoiler.
(click to show/hide)
And there
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_8,_2003_journalist_deaths_by_U.S._fire
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 10, 2014, 09:32:32 am
Quote from: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 09:21:21 am
(click to show/hide)

You KIND of start off nice and reasonable and finish up with a grandeur of watabautism in all its glory!  :rolleyes:

Its not that there are murders of journalists on every corner in russia, its just that there are too many REALLY politically motivated ones, like Anna Politkovskaya case for example, where the actual guys who did the hiring were never identified, or the case (addmittedly - not a journalist) of a businessman dying in prison because he did not get his diabetes shots or some such. Thats whats fucked up. It creates a chilling effect and then people like DonNicko come here and proclaim, that its all fine living in russia, when in reality - there is a miserable minority of suicidal journalists, who are actually willing to do the reporting which MATTERS, not what kremlin or its lackeys paid for.

Another example to consider: Snowden hid in russia, but gave his materials to western press, ever wondered why?

On topic, which is ofc old news probably. I'm just wondering - if russia CBA to use crossings WITHOUT OSCE observers anymore - what else goes in those 200 unmonitored KM's of border... :)
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/126485
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 06:27:54 pm
I just do not like when the actions are assessed differently simply because of the fact that the blame for it on other country.

Quote from: Kuujis on November 10, 2014, 09:32:32 am
Anna Politkovskaya case for example

No, Anna Politkovskaya (Mazepa, born in New-York, USA) killed because of her work, but true story short, from four main versions Russian or Chechen Republic Goverment order is the least likely ones. And i must say, from all murdered journalists this is only one open anti-Russian.

Do you know that she killed in Putin's birthday and he said: 'Her death did more harm than her whole live activity'?

Quote
a businessman dying in prison because he did not get his diabetes shots or some such. Thats whats fucked up. It creates a chilling effect and then people like DonNicko come here and proclaim, that its all fine living in russia, when in reality - there is a miserable minority of suicidal journalists, who are actually willing to do the reporting which MATTERS, not what Kremlin or its lackeys paid for.

You mean Magnitsky? It's grave error of detention center chief, no more. He not took his complaints seriously because this man maked more than hundred complains at the suggestion of his lawyer before. Actually, subsequent trial before determined date IS a real deliberate violation of law.

Мартосская Тишина is a pretty harsh detention center, but not even near to Guantamo level.

Quote
Another example to consider: Snowden hid in Russia, but gave his materials to western press, ever wondered why?

This argument is utterly wrong.

On May 20, 2013, Snowden flew from Hawaii to Hong Kong, where in early June he revealed numerous classified NSA documents to journalists Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, both of whom he had summoned to Hong Kong for that purpose.

Hong Kong (香港; "Fragrant Harbour"), officially known as Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China, is a region on the southern coast of China geographically enclosed by the Pearl River Delta and South China Sea.

Quote
if Russia CBA

CBA?

Quote
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/126485

This is DNR (DPR) army artillery unit. Former Ukrainian army equipment mostly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_(D-30)#List_of_operators
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 10, 2014, 08:35:26 pm
Kuujis stop showing a stupidness again, we understood it. Why you named me in your comment? I showed facts about where I live. And you don't see it anyhow.
Meanwhile in Ukraine:
Do you remember guys Odessa 2nd of May
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

This is a menu of the sushi-bar in Odessa. There are "set of fried titushki" and "separatist with fried salmon" nice humour they have
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 10, 2014, 08:40:45 pm
I don't think we need another idiot who doesn't understand that so called "rebels" are supplied by Russia. Not even "rebels" denying it but there is always a bunch of jerks trying. I think we spent too much time in this thread to understand who is right and who is wrong. Just roll it pages ago and compare to what actually happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 10, 2014, 08:48:23 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 10, 2014, 08:40:45 pm
I don't think we need another idiot who doesn't understand that so called "rebels" are supplied by Russia. Not even "rebels" denying it but there is always a bunch of jerks trying. I think we spent too much time in this thread to understand who is right and who is wrong. Just roll it pages ago and compare to what actually happened.
I think that separatists are supplied by Russia, because without russian help they would loose very fast. I don't know what exactly is happened there, as many of us. But I think anti-russian claims from ukranian government made Russia to defend their interests, first of all, in the Crimea. Second in Donbass it was punished to help, because of propoganda made before in Russia.
And Dave what do you think about humour in Odessa?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 10, 2014, 09:15:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 10, 2014, 08:48:23 pm
I think that separatists are supplied by Russia, because without russian help they would loose very fast. I don't know what exactly is happened there, as many of us. But I think anti-russian claims from ukranian government made Russia to defend their interests, first of all, in the Crimea. Second in Donbass it was punished to help, because of propoganda made before in Russia.
And Dave what do you think about humour in Odessa?

Yeah, sure. Trying to legitimate actions. Well I won't even take part in this discussion. Because you'd rather eat shit but believe that Russians are true angels who are liberating poor Ukrainians from fascists Kiev junta.

About that sushi part. I see that you really like Shariy but I almost never watch him. He tries to look like a badass smart guy but he really isn't. He's operating "facts" proven by himself and his own logic, bashing only Ukrainian side while pro-Russian media has SO MUCH bullshit that he would need to make like 50 videos each day. About the screenshot you posted. Why would they use different fonts in menu for only those provocative texts? Also the menu isn't standard, none of those ever exposed their website url (why would they if it's already used on the website), also no spaces used only in those texts where there is a mark "new". Looks like cheap fake to me. But who cares, you'd rather believe any screenshots from RT than common sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 10, 2014, 09:28:23 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 10, 2014, 09:15:02 pm
Yeah, sure. Trying to legitimate actions. Well I won't even take part in this discussion. Because you'd rather eat shit but believe that Russians are true angels who are liberating poor Ukrainians from fascists Kiev junta.

About that sushi part. I see that you really like Shariy but I almost never watch him. He tries to look like a badass smart guy but he really isn't. He's operating "facts" proven by himself and his own logic, bashing only Ukrainian side while pro-Russian media has SO MUCH bullshit that he would need to make like 50 videos each day. About the screenshot you posted. Why would they use different fonts in menu for only those provocative texts? Also the menu isn't standard, none of those ever exposed their website url (why would they if it's already used on the website), also no spaces used only in those texts where there is a mark "new". Looks like cheap fake to me. But who cares, you'd rather believe any screenshots from RT than common sense.
I never called Kiev a junta, or ukranians a fascists, you maybe misses me with someone else, I never called Russians an angels, but asked a prooves not logical conclusions, Facts I didn't get, But I accept that Russian can send some regular troops to Donbass and equipment as well. What I see is that you are trying to see fakes there where they are not.
Special for people like you:
I think you will enjoy your
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 10, 2014, 09:15:02 pm
Looks like cheap fake to me. But who cares, you'd rather believe any screenshots from RT than common sense.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 10, 2014, 10:38:52 pm
Oh boy... back from semi-vacations :D
Quote from: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 06:27:54 pm
I just do not like when the actions are assessed differently simply because of the fact that the blame for it on other country.
The fuck do I care for what you like or not? You wan't to talk about US? Go create a thread for that. Albeit... there already is aplenty. Its not about US, its about your fucking country raping yet another of its neighbors while they have internal problems sufficient for a generation.

Quote from: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 06:27:54 pm
No, Anna Politkovskaya (Mazepa, born in New-York, USA) killed because of her work, but true story short, from four main versions Russian or Chechen Republic Goverment order is the least likely ones. And i must say, from all murdered journalists this is only one open anti-Russian.

Do you know that she killed in Putin's birthday and he said: 'Her death did more harm than her whole live activity'?
Yeah... Well... have you deduced the "likeliness" based on RT reporting maybe?

Quote from: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 06:27:54 pm
You mean Magnitsky? It's grave error of detention center chief, no more. He not took his complaints seriously because this man maked more than hundred complains at the suggestion of his lawyer before. Actually, subsequent trial before determined date IS a real deliberate violation of law.

Мартосская Тишина is a pretty harsh detention center, but not even near to Guantamo level.
I see... there is this one guy, unmasking political level thievery... and then he dies due to "simple mistake". Only in putlers russia.

Quote from: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 06:27:54 pm
This argument is utterly wrong.

On May 20, 2013, Snowden flew from Hawaii to Hong Kong, where in early June he revealed numerous classified NSA documents to journalists Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, both of whom he had summoned to Hong Kong for that purpose.

Hong Kong (香港; "Fragrant Harbour"), officially known as Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China, is a region on the southern coast of China geographically enclosed by the Pearl River Delta and South China Sea.
And he is now... in Hong Kong... Aye... Your argument is utterly wrong :)

Quote from: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 06:27:54 pm
CBA?
Can't be arsed. As in "I cant be arsed to try to shatter DonNickos nice russias image for the megalomaniac neo-nationalistic den of sheeps that it is"

Quote from: Draakon on November 10, 2014, 06:27:54 pm
This is DNR (DPR) army artillery unit. Former Ukrainian army equipment mostly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_(D-30)#List_of_operators
So you are one of the guys, who think that fully set-up and assembled artilerry units come from some secret bunkers of Ukraine army in eastern Ukraine... Any particular reason, why these were not used before troops from russia (ON VACATIONS WITH TANKS OBVIOUSLY, because "only in putlers russia") slaugtered about a thousand of Ukrainian troops at Illovaysk? NOW they suddenly appear from the underworld! OH JOY, they finally found their way... being such a tidy and well polished arms... trully marvelous.
Did you also enjoy the fully monitored 2 KM's of 200 long border of russia and Ukraine?

*edit* accidental capital r in "russia" fixed. SOooowy :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 10, 2014, 10:42:58 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 10, 2014, 09:28:23 pm
I never called Kiev a junta, or ukranians a fascists, you maybe misses me with someone else, I never called Russians an angels, but asked a prooves not logical conclusions, Facts I didn't get, But I accept that Russian can send some regular troops to Donbass and equipment as well. What I see is that you are trying to see fakes there where they are not.
<...>
Why would you mind then some US missile catchers being sent to Poland and other EU states... Clearly sending  "SOME regular troops <...> and equipement" to another sovereign country is perfectly fine and nothing to be ashamed of...

You watch too much RT and start to mistake fakes for reality ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 10, 2014, 11:04:20 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 10, 2014, 09:28:23 pm
I never called Kiev a junta, or ukranians a fascists, you maybe misses me with someone else, I never called Russians an angels, but asked a prooves not logical conclusions, Facts I didn't get, But I accept that Russian can send some regular troops to Donbass and equipment as well. What I see is that you are trying to see fakes there where they are not.
Special for people like you:
I think you will enjoy your
(click to show/hide)

That's the video I mentioned actually. So what? Calling someone who doesn't believe an idiot is a solid reason, alright. I can make you a million of such "proves". Also the text, taken from where and by whom?
Anyway, even if it's true and the manager of the sushibar is an idiot, what's the point of making such a noise about it? I don't see any crime in it, there is widespread a cocktail "Dead nаzi" OH SHIT. It's okay for you that Russia is violating all the international laws and using military forces in Ukraine, but you don't tolerate the name of sushi.

About not getting facts. What facts do you need? You tend to believe whatever RT or Shariy say, means that you believe that you want to believe. That's it. Trying to prove anything? Already tried it, didn't work. Because as I've said: some people would rather eat shit than accept some certain things. Too bad that they start speaking with their mouth full of shit afterwards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Anuran on November 11, 2014, 12:03:35 am
Quote from: Xant on November 10, 2014, 01:02:50 am
Look at your exact Tovi-ness, instantly moving on after your accusations are proven retarded.

So got any proof I believe in "Iraq's WMDs, in 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine and in children killer Netanjahu's warning"? If not, then you're just speaking out of your ass, confirmed. You make this too easy.

Well, if you think you have proven my accusations retarded, then I will let you live in your dream world.
I hope you know who started insulting and simply badmouthing the other one for no reason, who is raging against the other one like mad, who sees the other one a hard nut to crack, who actually brought arguments123, who thinks he is so much better by claiming to have the arguments of the other one proven retarded, while leaving out aspects which at first appear to be an advantage for oneself, but actually just make the other one look better - just to not risk that the own opinion gets damaged.
=> I hope you know who is making a fool of oneself while not even noticing it.

(click to show/hide)


1In 1882, a Rothschild member bought land in palestine (Zikhron Ya'akov and Rishon LeZion), which was later given to the Jewish Colonization Association.

2And in 1917, another Rothschild received a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour, in which is said:
(click to show/hide)

3In 1924 that first Rothschild founded the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association which bought more than 500 sq km (193.05 sq mi) of land and in the time between 1887 and 1925 he went to Palestine five times to see how his colonies are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on November 11, 2014, 12:57:32 am
Not that I want to get dragged into anything but Snowden is in Russia because his passport was revoked. He isn't hiding in Russia, he's stuck there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 11, 2014, 01:10:45 am
Quote from: Swaggart on November 11, 2014, 12:57:32 am
Not that I want to get dragged into anything but Snowden is in Russia because his passport was revoked. He isn't hiding in Russia, he's stuck there.

Its probably for the best.  Putin's no nice guy with his KGB background but its safe to say that Snowden likely wouldn't be breathing were he anywhere else on earth right now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 11, 2014, 07:10:55 am
Quote from: Anuran on November 11, 2014, 12:03:35 am
Well, if you think you have proven my accusations retarded, then I will let you live in your dream world.
I hope you know who started insulting and simply badmouthing the other one for no reason, who is raging against the other one like mad, who sees the other one a hard nut to crack, who actually brought arguments123, who thinks he is so much better by claiming to have the arguments of the other one proven retarded, while leaving out aspects which at first appear to be an advantage for oneself, but actually just make the other one look better - just to not risk that the own opinion gets damaged.
=> I hope you know who is making a fool of oneself while not even noticing it.

(click to show/hide)


1In 1882, a Rothschild member bought land in palestine (Zikhron Ya'akov and Rishon LeZion), which was later given to the Jewish Colonization Association.

2And in 1917, another Rothschild received a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour, in which is said:
(click to show/hide)

3In 1924 that first Rothschild founded the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association which bought more than 500 sq km (193.05 sq mi) of land and in the time between 1887 and 1925 he went to Palestine five times to see how his colonies are.
I don't see you proving I said what you claimed about Iraqi WMDs, 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine or children killer Netanjahu's warnings.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 11, 2014, 07:48:11 am
Quote from: Xant on November 11, 2014, 07:10:55 am
I don't see you proving I said what you claimed about Iraqi WMDs, 30 Russian invasions in Ukraine or children killer Netanjahu's warnings.

Anuran will just keep ranting about Zionists.  He gets his talking points from a certain individual:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 11, 2014, 08:50:09 am
Quote from: Swaggart on November 11, 2014, 12:57:32 am
Not that I want to get dragged into anything but Snowden is in Russia because his passport was revoked. He isn't hiding in Russia, he's stuck there.

Right... And he chose to fly there or THROUGH there because...? In any case - it's besides the point. The guy is in russia, russia hides him, his cooperation was STILL with the serious western media, not Hong Kong, or russia's mockery of news agencies.

ON TOPIC!
(ok not very MUCH in this particular case)
russian macho No1 had some phun in CHINA!
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/11/10/putin_hits_on_china__first_lady_apec_censors_go_wild

Also an interesting read:
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/russia-and-ukraine-artificial-or-authentic


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 11, 2014, 10:52:03 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 11, 2014, 07:48:11 am
Anuran will just keep ranting about Zionists.  He gets his talking points from a certain individual:

(click to show/hide)

That's surprisingly tame for Khomeini.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 11, 2014, 05:24:07 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 10, 2014, 11:04:20 pm
Anyway, even if it's true and the manager of the sushibar is an idiot, what's the point of making such a noise about it? I don't see any crime in it
Interesting could you say the same to the faces of people whom relatives were killed on the 2nd of May.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 11, 2014, 06:14:41 pm
The Rothschild conspiracy theorygarbage is related to antisemitic bullcrap dating back to a few hundred years and somehow has survived through this day. Me and normal people take it as a joke, but every now and than theres people who seriuslly think they are some stringpullers of the world. You'd think that after over 200 years of silly assumptions and 0 actual evidence people would call it a day. But oh no.....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 11, 2014, 07:42:30 pm
Quote from: Tibe on November 11, 2014, 06:14:41 pm
The Rothschild conspiracy theorygarbage is related to antisemitic bullcrap dating back to a few hundred years and somehow has survived through this day. Me and normal people take it as a joke, but every now and than theres people who seriuslly think they are some stringpullers of the world. You'd think that after over 200 years of silly assumptions and 0 actual evidence people would call it a day. But oh no.....

good goy.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 11, 2014, 09:36:58 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 11, 2014, 05:24:07 pm
Interesting could you say the same to the faces of people whom relatives were killed on the 2nd of May.

Easily. But I don't want to. How are those people any different from other criminal subjects? And don't only think that 2nd of May was a tragedy for separatists, some pro-Ukrainians died during that day as well which consequently caused that massacre. I don't understand why you keep speaking about that 2nd of May. 50 traitors and criminals died while it's every day that innocent people die because of including those 50 dead separatists. I have a very strict and cynic opinion about this case. I have no mercy to people who wanted to bring war into my city.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 05:52:05 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 11, 2014, 09:36:58 pm
Easily. But I don't want to. How are those people any different from other criminal subjects? And don't only think that 2nd of May was a tragedy for separatists, some pro-Ukrainians died during that day as well which consequently caused that massacre. I don't understand why you keep speaking about that 2nd of May. 50 traitors and criminals died while it's every day that innocent people die because of including those 50 dead separatists. I have a very strict and cynic opinion about this case. I have no mercy to people who wanted to bring war into my city.
Ok, now I understood your opinion, you just don't care, even people have another opinion, they must die. Maybe you were there shouting Glory to Ukraine. Interesting what war they wanted to bring you speak about. Those 50 people weren't separatists, they were anti-maidaners from Ukraine, of course no mercy for them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 12, 2014, 08:25:53 am
Quote from: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 05:52:05 am
Ok, now I understood your opinion, you just don't care, even people have another opinion, they must die. Maybe you were there shouting Glory to Ukraine. Interesting what war they wanted to bring you speak about. Those 50 people weren't separatists, they were anti-maidaners from Ukraine, of course no mercy for them.
I'm sorry to bring it to you, but its russia with putler in the lead (lets not forget 80+% approval rate of his sheeple) who disregard the oppinion of Ukraine and caused not 40, but fucking 4000 casualties (IF that is anything close to a real number). So look in the mirror first, then go around spouting your old and boring whataboutisms.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 10:32:18 am
Quote from: Kuujis on November 12, 2014, 08:25:53 am
I'm sorry to bring it to you, but its russia with putler in the lead (lets not forget 80+% approval rate of his sheeple) who disregard the oppinion of Ukraine and caused not 40, but fucking 4000 casualties (IF that is anything close to a real number). So look in the mirror first, then go around spouting your old and boring whataboutisms.
What mirror are you talking about, read my previous comments first, I never supported entering russian army to Donbass. There were some claims from ukranian politicans that they must remove  russian military bases from Crimea(Crimea was drunken and given away by foolish president of Russia Eltsin when Ukraine wanted to separate), so Putin took Crimea easily like a candy from the child after armed revolution in Kiev. If Kiev politicans are so weak to protect their interests, they couldn't do anything in Crimea, and can't do anything in Donbass, only thing they could do is to start a civil war. Lol ATO, if there were 100 terrorists, they just could clean that area, but there were already before ATO started 20000 ukranian troops, then more and more from different countries.
Who started that civilian war? Russia or actions from Kiev? Can it be solved politically or only by force?
As I said before, I'm against any killings and wars. If you make a revolution in your country be ready that it will rip your country apart. That what happened in 1917 in Russia and in 90s. So I blame authorities that they started this ATO. Gave weapon to radicals(in Russia you will not find people in army with swasticas and tatoos with Hitle r). Yes fascits present in all countries, but you can't find any country where authorities give them machine guns and send to kill people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 10:33:23 am
Quote from: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 05:52:05 am
Ok, now I understood your opinion, you just don't care, even people have another opinion, they must die. Maybe you were there shouting Glory to Ukraine. Interesting what war they wanted to bring you speak about. Those 50 people weren't separatists, they were anti-maidaners from Ukraine, of course no mercy for them.

It's not an opinion, it's crime. It's crime in Russia as well. Those 50 were separatists, all the anti-maidan thing in Odessa (and the rest of Ukraine) was about to create Novorussia in Odessa. I personally know anti-maidan leaders and I know their intentions first-hand. I also know that they received money from Russia, it's not an opinion or assumption, it's a fact. Or maybe you didn't see the amount of Russian flags there, or you didn't hear their mottos? Their main intention was to leave Ukraine and join Russia.

The only thing that you still consider the fact of dislocation of Russian troops there on the east of Ukraine still unproven makes it disgusting to speak to you. You got to be a member of this http://theflatearthsociety.org/ Why did people stop proving that the earth is not flat? Because nobody cares, it's been proven so many times that only retards left who don't believe it, so why bother? The same situation here. And the same was with Crimea because even after Putin accepts it, there are still people who don't believe  :mad:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 10:49:02 am
Quote from: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 10:32:18 am
Who started that civilian war? Russia or actions from Kiev? Can it be solved politically or only by force?

Russia started war. There is no civilian war, the war started the day Russia invaded Crimea. The only political solve would be to lose the area to Russia (proven by Crimea case).

Strict and correct answers. There is no other correct opinion and let's never come back to it. Proven a million times, discussed a billion times.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on November 12, 2014, 01:04:51 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 10:49:02 am
Russia started war. There is no civilian war, the war started the day Russia invaded Crimea. The only political solve would be to lose the area to Russia (proven by Crimea case).

Strict and correct answers. There is no other correct opinion and let's never come back to it. Proven a million times, discussed a billion times.

Prove and discussed yes, but sometimes facts mean little to many. Frustrating and sad isnt it? Like when a war of independence is called a civil war. And when your generals are shipped to Hague to be trialed for taking back the land which rightfuly belongs to your country.

I see so many pararels drawn between these wars. So be vary, because it may be clear as day to you but history has yet to form an opinion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on November 12, 2014, 01:12:45 pm
Has in Ukraine been somehow discussed the attitude of Czech (and others Hungarian, Slovak for example) officials towards the crisis?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 12, 2014, 01:36:39 pm
Indeed, you can drag USA or whoever into this discussion but the solid fact is that the only troops outside of their own borders in this crysis are russian troops. Noone elses. And the other solid fact is that Russia wants Eastern-Ukraine. Cause they already got Crimea and Crimea without Eastern-Ukr is kinda of a shitty win.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 12, 2014, 01:49:22 pm
Quote from: Tibe on November 12, 2014, 01:36:39 pm
Indeed, you can drag USA or whoever into this discussion but the solid fact is that the only troops outside of their own borders in this crysis are russian troops. Noone elses. And the other solid fact is that Russia wants Eastern-Ukraine. Cause they already got Crimea and Crimea without Eastern-Ukr is kinda of a shitty win.
russia cannot afford eastern Ukraine, it will be too much strain on their budget, which is cracking as it is with the given oil prices. What russia and putler wants is Ukraine to stay in the same deep-shit situation, unable to move away from russia, however it wanted to. And one way to achieve this is a way russia already tried (and verified) twice: create a frozen conflict. Mind you - the current one is not freezing, but the fact, that the only ones attacking currently are the so called "rebels" speaks volumes on what Ukraine can afford right now and that they would settle with a partial loss of their territory. Not because they want to or do not mind accepting this, but because they cannot start another fight with separatists, who are basically a thin camouflage line on the bumper of russian tank. Stopping that tank would cost too many lives and I guess it will be attempted only in the most extreme scenario, which I think Poroshenko wants to avoid, given that huge losses of life would not be accepted easily by Ukrainians.

Numerous observers noted, that the best Ukraine can do is what Poland and baltics did: i.e. reorganize, reform, root-out majority of corruption, improve conditions of life and economy. THIS is what putler does not want most: busted myth that slav nation cannot live without support from russia. This would hurt his rule more than ANYTHING that Ukrainians can throw, launch or fire at the rebels. Then, when you see Ukrainian shopping malls full of russians buying stuff which is unavailable or overly expensive in russia, when people see that there is a better way to live, than being sheeple under a wolf leader (granted - the herd is big, the chances that YOU will be eaten are acceptably small), THEN the process of "joining" will begin to reverse and russia will implode on the weight of its own bullshit.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2014, 06:15:14 pm
Quote from: Umbra on November 12, 2014, 01:04:51 pm
Prove and discussed yes, but sometimes facts mean little to many. Frustrating and sad isnt it? Like when a war of independence is called a civil war. And when your generals are shipped to Hague to be trialed for taking back the land which rightfuly belongs to your country.

I see so many pararels drawn between these wars. So be vary, because it may be clear as day to you but history has yet to form an opinion.

Serbia stronk?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 07:21:49 pm
Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger:
"If the West wants to be “honest,” it should recognize, that it made a “mistake,” he said of the course of action the US and the EU adopted in the Ukrainian conflict. Europe and the US did not understand the “significance of events” that started with the Ukraine-EU economic negotiations that initially brought about the demonstrations in Kiev last year. Those tensions should have served as a starting point to include Russia in the discussion"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 07:26:32 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 07:21:49 pm
Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger:
"If the West wants to be “honest,” it should recognize, that it made a “mistake,” he said of the course of action the US and the EU adopted in the Ukrainian conflict. Europe and the US did not understand the “significance of events” that started with the Ukraine-EU economic negotiations that initially brought about the demonstrations in Kiev last year. Those tensions should have served as a starting point to include Russia in the discussion"

The point is? Besides that you post quotes from RT? If anything, Henry Kissinger is a known Putin's asslicker and is highly tight with Russia so no wonder he says this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on November 12, 2014, 07:35:40 pm
Ukraine is dead project.
For now Kiev manage to intimidate opposition on held territories in so called free election.
But those Kievian fools are not aware that country could not bee kept together only by sheer fear.
Specially in bankrupt country.
Sooner or later something really bad will happen :(




Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on November 12, 2014, 07:37:19 pm
Quote from: Anuran on November 11, 2014, 12:03:35 am
[...] I hope you know who is making a fool of oneself while not even noticing it.[...]
I sure do know :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 08:06:08 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 07:26:32 pm
The point is? Besides that you post quotes from RT? If anything, Henry Kissinger is a known Putin's asslicker and is highly tight with Russia so no wonder he says this.
Just first that I found in english was RT, that interview was given to Das Spiegel. So what was you question about - Besides that you post quotes from RT? Seems everybody who has another opinion then you Dave is a Putin's asslicker. Ukraine can't do anything, now Russia and USA will decide what will happen with Ukraine next. Ukraine doesn't have stong politicans, they will be puppets of the East or of the West at least in the near future.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 09:29:59 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 08:06:08 pm
Just first that I found in english was RT, that interview was given to Das Spiegel. So what was you question about - Besides that you post quotes from RT? Seems everybody who has another opinion then you Dave is a Putin's asslicker. Ukraine can't do anything, now Russia and USA will decide what will happen with Ukraine next. Ukraine doesn't have stong politicans, they will be puppets of the East or of the West at least in the near future.

No shit Sherlock. Ukraine is doomed to be someone's puppet by now. Such countries can't be independent by now, because they have to become strong first. About "another opinion". Stop calling this an alternative opinion. It's all the same RT bullshit that you post over and over again. About strong politicians in Ukraine - I honestly see more strong politicians in Ukraine than in Russia. One thing that heats my heart is that Putin is not everlasting and a lot will change when he quits (= dies).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 09:42:29 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 09:29:59 pm
It's all the same RT bullshit that you post over and over again. About strong politicians in Ukraine - I honestly see more strong politicians in Ukraine than in Russia.
What RT bullshit?
(click to show/hide)
And what strong politicians in Ukraine you see? Poroshenko? Yatsenyuk? Klichko? Kolomoyskiy? Lyashko? Timoshenko?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 12, 2014, 10:56:13 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 08:06:08 pm
Just first that I found in english was RT, that interview was given to Das Spiegel. So what was you question about - Besides that you post quotes from RT? Seems everybody who has another opinion then you Dave is a Putin's asslicker. Ukraine can't do anything, now Russia and USA will decide what will happen with Ukraine next. Ukraine doesn't have stong politicans, they will be puppets of the East or of the West at least in the near future.
IF you care to ask - being a puppet of western powers rock, compared to the life under the shadow of CCCP. Furthermore - ALL your neighbors in europe, except the single dictator in Belorussia, agree that being a "puppet" of west is better for your health than siding with russia and putler!

Coincidence?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 12, 2014, 11:40:15 pm
Quote from: Umbra on November 12, 2014, 01:04:51 pm
Prove and discussed yes, but sometimes facts mean little to many. Frustrating and sad isnt it? Like when a war of independence is called a civil war. And when your generals are shipped to Hague to be trialed for taking back the land which rightfuly belongs to your country.

I see so many pararels drawn between these wars. So be vary, because it may be clear as day to you but history has yet to form an opinion.

lol return to croatioa
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on November 13, 2014, 01:38:53 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 12, 2014, 09:29:59 pm
No shit Sherlock. Ukraine is doomed to be someone's puppet by now. Such countries can't be independent by now, because they have to become strong first. About "another opinion". Stop calling this an alternative opinion. It's all the same RT bullshit that you post over and over again. About strong politicians in Ukraine - I honestly see more strong politicians in Ukraine than in Russia. One thing that heats my heart is that Putin is not everlasting and a lot will change when he quits (= dies).

How are Poiish and Ukranian relations? Seems like there is a huge vacuum of influence for a liberalized pan-slavic union, since European NATO are pussies and North America is geographically and culturally distant.

Not some USSR/Yugoslavia shit, but stronger military and economic ties to lessen vulnerability to Russian or EU/USA interests and support each other with civil infrastructure and business networking, high speed rails and new factories, shared education and employment opportunities, etc.

Reading more on this, what's the deal with V4 and Ukraine? Are there RT conspiracies about V4 or some similar Central/Eastern European cabal that half the posters here believe? Probably too busy talking about the CIA instead of the actual people who live by shady historically power-hungry fucking Russia and have legitimate issues with international integration and domestic prosperity after the USSR collapsed.

People think the EU and NATO are a good fit for dealing with this region at all? Seems pretty fucking shaky with shit like Crimea happening and all the economic problems. Not evil or corrupt like Russia obviously is, but incompetent, unreliable, and just "not a good fit" for the common interests of these slav states.

Apparently Ukraine doesn't even use the same gauge railways as Poland and the rest of Central Europe, but use the Russian/Belarus shit. I remember reading about that as a Russian advantage in WW2 defending against Germans. Prob super easy to invade and conquer Ukraine with it too haha. Maybe changing that would be a nice start to stop Russians from invading Ukraine's borders lol and prob wastes tons of money trading anywhere else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on November 13, 2014, 09:24:05 am
apology for poor english

when were you when Ukraine is kill

i was at home squat, drink vodka and smoke when Dave call

"Ukraine is kill"

"no"

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 13, 2014, 02:18:11 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 12, 2014, 09:42:29 pm
What RT bullshit?
(click to show/hide)
And what strong politicians in Ukraine you see? Poroshenko? Yatsenyuk? Klichko? Kolomoyskiy? Lyashko? Timoshenko?

All of RT bullshit is bullshit, sounds legit, right? You quote RT's quote of Kissinger. The only fact that you read RT is already embarrassing, not to mention that you quote it here. Pretty much every known politician in Ukraine is a strong one, both from pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian sides. Because they struggle fighting each other for years unlike Russia with 146% of votes for the only party.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on November 13, 2014, 10:01:03 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 13, 2014, 11:14:47 pm
good read:

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Origin-of-the-Separatists-Buk-A-Bellingcat-Investigation1.pdf
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on November 14, 2014, 12:00:34 am
How to loose a war (and a country) :


Kramatorsk population kick Kiev's heroic/democratic mercenaries out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 14, 2014, 12:33:21 am
No wonder they are shelled to shit.

This is like watching a zombie apocalypse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on November 14, 2014, 12:41:34 am
Quote from: Tovi on November 14, 2014, 12:00:34 am
How to loose a war (and a country) :


Kramatorsk population kick Kiev's heroic/democratic mercenaries out.

it just looks like a bunch of loud mouthed people yelling as the soldiers climb on vehicles and leave, doesnt really seem like a "removal" of the soldiers.

best part of that video was when the show of force happened, im surprised the "fascists"(lol, the brainwashing is real) didnt scare the crowd off when they ran that bus sign down, fuck i was trembling in my chair.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on November 14, 2014, 03:03:35 am
Yeah Tovi, those chocolate chip cookies should have gunned down those civilians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 14, 2014, 05:36:24 am
Quote from: Tovi on November 14, 2014, 12:00:34 am
How to loose a war (and a country) :


Kramatorsk population kick Kiev's heroic/democratic mercenaries out.
Oh look Tovi's back again, after his second proclamation of quitting the thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 05:52:29 am
Quote from: Xant on November 14, 2014, 05:36:24 am
Oh look Tovi's back again, after his second proclamation of quitting the thread.

Everybody knows that you love him baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 14, 2014, 06:04:19 am
Man that song you quoted works the other way around too   :mrgreen:

You have a Xantdiction
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 06:09:25 am
Quote from: Christo on November 14, 2014, 06:04:19 am
Man that song you quoted works the other way around too   :mrgreen:

You have a Xantdiction

I don't think bad of the guy, its just fun giving him shit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 14, 2014, 06:55:14 am
Seriuslly, why dont you 2 just marry already.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 06:58:36 am
Quote from: Tibe on November 14, 2014, 06:55:14 am
Seriuslly, why dont you 2 just marry already.

k

Drive thru wedding

Double the income, and he'd be twice as miserable, win win for everyone
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 14, 2014, 07:20:13 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 06:58:36 am
k

Drive thru wedding

Double the income, and he'd be twice as miserable, win win for everyone
If you have US citizenship, I'm down for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 07:29:15 am
Quote from: Xant on November 14, 2014, 07:20:13 am
If you have US citizenship, I'm down for it.

les do dis shi

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 14, 2014, 08:21:36 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 06:09:25 am
I don't think bad of the guy, its just fun giving him shit

Where does it say something about thinking bad about someone in that song?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 08:23:15 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on November 14, 2014, 08:21:36 am
Where does it say something about thinking bad about someone in that song?

Its just that shitposting is more entertaining than the conspiratorial crap coming out of Tovi
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 14, 2014, 09:30:38 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 08:23:15 am
Its just that shitposting is more entertaining than the conspiratorial crap coming out of Tovi

stop arguing, you are convicted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 09:32:50 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on November 14, 2014, 09:30:38 am
stop arguing, you are convicted.

Of what?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 14, 2014, 09:49:37 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 09:32:50 am
Of what?

pidor )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 09:52:41 am
Quote from: Christo on November 14, 2014, 09:49:37 am
pidor )

Russian slang, very nice for this thread
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 14, 2014, 10:56:02 am
Quote from: Tovi on November 14, 2014, 12:00:34 am
How to loose a war (and a country) :


Kramatorsk population kick Kiev's heroic/democratic mercenaries out.

Welcome back. How is your treatment? This video is not only uploaded 4.5 months ago, it was old already back to when it was uploaded. Or don't you see the equipment of Ukrainian side?

That is Kramatorks on 24 of August. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKjW2hXjO10

The amount of Russian trolls in the comment section tells me that the video succeed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on November 14, 2014, 11:02:16 am

Marsh residents of St. Petersburg for joining to Somalia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 14, 2014, 04:25:51 pm
Nice plan how to win a war in Donbass. Well done mister Poroshenko
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 14, 2014, 09:24:44 pm
Nice one. Shariy and RT are as always the mythbusters and the top of truth and dignity (Alternative Opinion TM)! But where is Shariy when your main channel spreads the mother of all mothers of grandmothers of fakes? 1st channel released a satellite shot of a jet shooting Boeing-777  :lol: I can't even describe how cheap this fake is but well, I'll give you some time so Internet itself gets it proven.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 14, 2014, 09:47:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 14, 2014, 04:25:51 pm
Nice plan how to win a war in Donbass. Well done mister Poroshenko
Enjoying the naming of the suffering, that russia has inflicted on its "brotherly" neighboring slavs due to its own illusions of grandeur and advanced form of megalomania? Man you are one strange human being. russ no-sapiens.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 15, 2014, 05:31:55 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 15, 2014, 05:45:42 am
If you're gonna go the tin foil route, at least do it like this

DEM HORNS MANE

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 15, 2014, 11:10:04 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 14, 2014, 09:24:44 pm
Nice one. Shariy and RT are as always the mythbusters and the top of truth and dignity (Alternative Opinion TM)! But where is Shariy when your main channel spreads the mother of all mothers of grandmothers of fakes? 1st channel released a satellite shot of a jet shooting Boeing-777  :lol: I can't even describe how cheap this fake is but well, I'll give you some time so Internet itself gets it proven.
Well I don't know what fake you are talking about, I don't watch TV, I don't have RT channel at all. Tried to find it on youtube, I couldn't. And if it even exists, I'm not surprised. What I only found is that on briefing was asked why at the moment of crash there were another plane. And was made one possibility, that this jet can shot it. Ok I found that video, somebody from abroad sent a shot from satellite, 1st channel made a report about it. Well about Shariy, he is investigating it and says that it is 90% fake.
And I didn't get your sarcasm about Shariy, maybe you can show where he is lying. Just want to know why you are so angry at him. And about your president, maybe he didn't say that words? 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on November 15, 2014, 11:37:03 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on November 13, 2014, 11:14:47 pm
good read:

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Origin-of-the-Separatists-Buk-A-Bellingcat-Investigation1.pdf
Too bad this has been ignored so far.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 15, 2014, 11:59:08 am
Quote from: DonNicko on November 15, 2014, 11:10:04 am
Well I don't know what fake you are talking about, I don't watch TV, I don't have RT channel at all. Tried to find it on youtube, I couldn't. And if it even exists, I'm not surprised. What I only found is that on briefing was asked why at the moment of crash there were another plane. And was made one possibility, that this jet can shot it. But I didn't find a video of 1st channel where they show a satellite shot with a jet shooting Boeing. Can you show it to me I will laugh with you. I found a photo of the shot, well about Shariy, he is investigating it and says that it is 90% fake.
And I didn't get your sarcasm about Shariy, maybe you can show where he is lying. Just want to know why you are so angry at him. And about your president, maybe he didn't say that words?

The whole RU-internet is brighting with that article and video and you fail to find it. That pretty much describes your effort to "find the truth". Open ANY Russian news-website and you'll find it.

About Shariy. He only observes Ukrainian fakes even if those fakes are created by Russians on purpose, that's it. And he does it because he knows that once he tries to show Russian fakes - he'll get shitloads of unsubscribes.
About Poroshenko. You can take any text out of context. I'm seriously tired of this discussion. You're nitpicking any of Ukrainian news even if they're fake while having major issues in your own country. Ofc your massmedia will show any word of Poroshenko as a word of a cruel nаzi aggressor while he's probably the mildest president Ukraine ever had, but who cares? You know better. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 15, 2014, 12:24:57 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 15, 2014, 11:59:08 am
The whole RU-internet is brighting with that article and video and you fail to find it. That pretty much describes your effort to "find the truth". Open ANY Russian news-website and you'll find it.

About Shariy. He only observes Ukrainian fakes even if those fakes are created by Russians on purpose, that's it. And he does it because he knows that once he tries to show Russian fakes - he'll get shitloads of unsubscribes.
About Poroshenko. You can take any text out of context. I'm seriously tired of this discussion. You're nitpicking any of Ukrainian news even if they're fake while having major issues in your own country. Ofc your massmedia will show any word of Poroshenko as a word of a cruel nаzi aggressor while he's probably the mildest president Ukraine ever had, but who cares? You know better.
Yes I found it, the report about. Shariy said that this is photoshop, also he said that crossified child is a fake, and that russian channels have many rhetorics about ukranian na zis and fascists, that's not true, but he said that no country will give them weapon, but Ukraine did. So according to your logic now he must get many of unsubscribes. Will see, but I don't think. And once he said that he is ukranian and will show ukranian fakes. And if you like to close your eyes on it, like on the 2nd of May, it's your right.
Lol maybe you forgot how Poroshenko claimed that ukranian army destroyed russian armed convoy, and general of NATO confirmed it, was that small fake? Or many fakes where russian soldiers killed or were killed, and then it occurs that this was fake, are this small fakes? As I remember Shariy tried to find fakes on the russian tv and said that on the main channels he couldn't find any fakes exept anti-ukraine rhetoric (like fascist, junta and so on), there are some fakes but not much like in Ukraine. He didn't say about some small internet sites, there are really many fakes. And you are talking about major issues in my country, I see only words. And about Poroshenko, Shariy said that this words of him are fake, but after he watched full video he confirmed that this words are not fake. Realle Dave seems you are trying to close your eyes on some reality
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 15, 2014, 12:47:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 15, 2014, 12:24:57 pm
Yes I found it, the report about. Shariy said that this is photoshop, also he said that crossified child is a fake, and that russian channels have many rhetorics about ukranian na zis and fascists, that's not true, but he said that no country will give them weapon, but Ukraine did. So according to your logic now he must get many of unsubscribes. Will see, but I don't think. And once he said that he is ukranian and will show ukranian fakes. And if you like to close your eyes on it, like on the 2nd of May, it's your right.
Lol maybe you forgot how Poroshenko claimed that ukranian army destroyed russian armed convoy, and general of NATO confirmed it, was that small fake? Or many fakes where russian soldiers killed or were killed, and then it occurs that this was fake, are this small fakes? As I remember Shariy tried to find fakes on the russian tv and said that on the main channels he couldn't find any fakes exept anti-ukraine rhetoric (like fascist, junta and so on), there are some fakes but not much like in Ukraine. He didn't say about some small internet sites, there are really many fakes. And you are talking about major issues in my country, I see only words. And about Poroshenko, Shariy said that this words of him are fake, but after he watched full video he confirmed that this words are not fake. Realle Dave seems you are trying to close your eyes on some reality

"Said"? Where are videos in his own style where he's calling media names, where he's calling people zombies and so on? You won't find it because he would never call his auditory zombies if he doesn't want to lose it. I don't close my eyes on things like 2nd of May, you're annoying with this shit, I'm just tired of repeating the same thing like a million times. Will you stop mentioning it? I think I gave my opinion about it like 3 times or even more in this thread.

Yeah, small fakes. There are so many fakes and they're so horrible and cruel that your main channels can't have a single day without fakes, yes those are small fakes ofc.

My opinion about you is that you're a brainwashed idiot just like Tovi. Same symptoms. You have one source of information and you take everything else as bullshit because your "alternative opinion media" is almighty.

Shariy is a known attention whore and fake maker in Ukraine, he used to get info out of the blue when he made some of his reports. Then he shot a guy in McDonalds and ran away from the country using fake documents. Giving a part of the info in most of the cases means giving a fake info. If I say that "DonNicko from cRPG community is gay" and then Shariy cuts it to "cRPG community is gay" can't be considered as truth.

Insulting you is a way more important thing than proving anything to you as it's just a waste of time trying to have a decent conversation with your type of people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 15, 2014, 01:05:46 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 15, 2014, 12:47:17 pm
"Said"? Where are videos in his own style where he's calling media names, where he's calling people zombies and so on? You won't find it because he would never call his auditory zombies if he doesn't want to lose it. I don't close my eyes on things like 2nd of May, you're annoying with this shit, I'm just tired of repeating the same thing like a million times. Will you stop mentioning it? I think I gave my opinion about it like 3 times or even more in this thread.

Yeah, small fakes. There are so many fakes and they're so horrible and cruel that your main channels can't have a single day without fakes, yes those are small fakes ofc.

My opinion about you is that you're a brainwashed idiot just like Tovi. Same symptoms. You have one source of information and you take everything else as bullshit because your "alternative opinion media" is almighty.

Shariy is a known attention whore and fake maker in Ukraine, he used to get info out of the blue when he made some of his reports. Then he shot a guy in McDonalds and ran away from the country using fake documents. Giving a part of the info in most of the cases means giving a fake info. If I say that "DonNicko from cRPG community is gay" and then Shariy cuts it to "cRPG community is gay" can't be considered as truth.

Insulting you is a way more important thing than proving anything to you as it's just a waste of time trying to have a decent conversation with your type of people.
Man, if I see a facts of a fakes, I agree with them at least I can accept them. Seems you can't, so who is brainwashed of us is you. I don't watch TV, so maybe you will show me that horrible fakes from main channels you are talking about that everyday you see. Or you just raging like a child. About your opinion of the 2nd of May I only remember that, this doesn't matter becuase there is a war in Donbass and many people die everyday, and that you don't have mercy for that people who were killed on the 2nd of May, OK sorry if you are agree with that kills, then I won't say you about it again.
About Shariy, seems I know better then you. And the fact that you are writing that he ran away from Ukraine after he shot a guy in MCd shows that you don't have any information, you know what only your media told you. Why then EU don't give him to Ukraine if he is guilty? You so half-brained. You call him a fake maker, can you show one of his fakes? If you can't then you are dumb idiot.
If you think that insulting me is more important then proving, that's OK, but I didn't find that you tried to proove something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 15, 2014, 01:25:49 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on November 15, 2014, 01:05:46 pm
Man, if I see a facts of a fakes, I agree with them at least I can accept them. Seems you can't, so who is brainwashed of us is you. I don't watch TV, so maybe you will show me that horrible fakes from main channels you are talking about that everyday you see. Or you just raging like a child. About your opinion of the 2nd of May I only remember that, this doesn't matter becuase there is a war in Donbass and many people die everyday, and that you don't have mercy for that people who were killed on the 2nd of May, OK sorry if you are agree with that kills, then I won't say you about it again.
About Shariy, seems I know better then you. And the fact that you are writing that he ran away from Ukraine after he shot a guy in MCd shows that you don't have any information, you know what only your media told you. Why then EU don't give him to Ukraine if he is guilty? You so half-brained. You call him a fake maker, can you show one of his fakes? If you can't then you are dumb idiot.
If you think that insulting me is more important then proving, that's OK, but I didn't find that you tried to proove something.

Ok, now eat shit and go watch some more of RT. I don't want to prove anything to you because you can't proof to a religious fanatic that there is no God. Same shit with you so why bother? I use too much of my time that you don't deserve. Try proving anything to Tovi, same result.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 15, 2014, 02:30:09 pm
You know DonNicko - every time there is some BS in russian media, that you believe, or some info about russias BS that you dont like, you go full retard "PROVE, that the putlers media is wrong" or "PROVE that your media is right", "because you have no information/brainwashed/idiot/blablabla/everyone is bought/<some random reason>".

Then when you get to eat your shit, because you actually WAS wrong you take the tiniest bite possible, that you can't refuse, "and everything else is still shit, but yours, not mine, continue prooving". Like "so I had this gun, I bought it they day before, I was in the alley with the victim which was shot in the back, but it was not me that shot it, because there is no proof".

And this repeats time and time again. Starting with the BS, that "it was not russian soldiers in crimea", which was then prooven? by putler by actually admitting it, moving on to soldiers on vacations with russian tanks, BUK appearing from nowhere,"there is no russians soldiers fighting in eastern ukraine" bullshit numerous times, even though all the columns, "lost" paratroopers, traced and identified BUK's show completely different picture and so on, and so on. Then when your arguing that russia is not fighting in easter Ukraine becomes a simple lauthing stock (not funny after first 50 times) - you go full retard and back to Odessa tragedy, because... why? I think MH17 was a bigger tragedy and to EVERYONE except morons like you its obvious, that it was russian supplied BUK's and (IMO) likely russian soldiers miscalculating. And you still go full retard back to Odessa.

Oh, and "russia is allowed to protect its interests" or some such shit came up few times too IIRC... and "so we have troops there, so what?" also... To these - I simply have nothing to answer. Although admittedly - this is MUCH more, than most "brave" ruskies care to admit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 15, 2014, 03:18:11 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 15, 2014, 01:25:49 pm
Ok, now eat shit and go watch some more of RT. I don't want to prove anything to you because you can't proof to a religious fanatic that there is no God. Same shit with you so why bother? I use too much of my time that you don't deserve. Try proving anything to Tovi, same result.
You never tried to poove anything, I see only that you act like emotional kid. When you said about Boeing, I agreed with you and said if you remmember tha they need to be arrested if guilty. But too many information is missing, for example why nobody saw a trace of missile from the BUK? Why without any investigation everybody instantly knew that this was russians? I said that this can be separatists, but also said that it can be ukranians, I don't know. Seems you know and some others exactly know too. Really don't bother don't waste your time if you can't disproove videos I post.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on November 15, 2014, 11:59:55 pm
This is it :

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on November 16, 2014, 02:01:45 am
Yup, that sure is it :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dezilagel on November 16, 2014, 03:05:16 am
Quote from: Tovi on November 15, 2014, 11:59:55 pm
This is it :

(click to show/hide)

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!!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 16, 2014, 03:25:42 am
Quote from: Dezilagel on November 16, 2014, 03:05:16 am
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!!!

Lost my shit  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on November 16, 2014, 03:35:34 am
The perspective is insane, that fighter plane is bigger than most of the fields below. If it was taken from the lowest satellites at 160km altitude, it would look nearly 1:1 from its background only 10km below. The airliner seems to be a few kilometers long..

Also, the idea that a sattelite would fly over that area and take a high-res pic just as the fighter fired its guns..   :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 16, 2014, 05:10:23 am
Tovi is so fucking insane, he will accept ANYTHING, anything at all, that is fed to him by his Russian overlords, but no Western source is good enough, unless it's pro-Russian, of course.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 16, 2014, 05:20:50 am
Quote from: Xant on November 16, 2014, 05:10:23 am
Tovi is so fucking insane, he will accept ANYTHING, anything at all, that is fed to him by his Russian overlords, but no Western source is good enough, unless it's pro-Russian, of course.

He's a good troll
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 16, 2014, 05:21:21 am
Aha, hahahaha

Good god that satellite image.

I spilled some of my coffee when I saw it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 16, 2014, 08:27:04 am
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 16, 2014, 05:20:50 am
He's a good troll
He isn't a troll.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 16, 2014, 08:53:15 am
Quote from: Tovi on November 15, 2014, 11:59:55 pm
This is it :

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Tovi - didn't even russians admit it was a fake?
This is in russian, but just google translate it. Its reasonable enough:
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1203282.html
(AFAIK - only latest prototype stationary guns are able to hit something at 10km range, this picture implies 56km's AND in the air)

Here for some reading, do you find yourself described in this article?
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/11/14/putin-wages-information-war-in-ukraine-worthy-of-george-orwell/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 16, 2014, 08:56:03 am
I also like how that Su-25 transformed into a MiG  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on November 16, 2014, 09:13:46 am
Yeah it looks like a photoshop fake. But I just mentioned, why really nobody saw a trace of missile. Because it is easy to find the place where from was made a launch of missile.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 16, 2014, 09:17:23 am
Nice hit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 16, 2014, 10:44:19 am
Quote from: DonNicko on November 16, 2014, 09:13:46 am
Yeah it looks like a photoshop fake. But I just mentioned, why really nobody saw a trace of missile. Because it is easy to find the place where from was made a launch of missile.
They didn't see smoke, but there were witnesses, who saw UKRAINIAN (identified and certified) jets shooting down the plane at 10km height... Tru story.

Another true story is that IF there were witnesses - they would and unfortunately SHOULD be mightily afraid of speaking about the trail. you know... like in russia, where if you write some uncomfortable stories about own soldiers dying in a foreign country for god knows what reasons - you get severely beaten?  On a second thought... putler probably has some imaginative idea in his head about the reasons, don't you think?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 16, 2014, 10:51:40 am
Quote from: DonNicko on November 16, 2014, 09:13:46 am
Yeah it looks like a photoshop fake. But I just mentioned, why really nobody saw a trace of missile. Because it is easy to find the place where from was made a launch of missile.

How do you know that nobody saw a trace of missile? And how do you think it looks when the missile flies in the air? And what's the visual difference between flying missile and a military aircraft? And how can you see it in clouds? And how much time do you have to actually film it? And what's the chance to film it when there are villages around. And how many videos of actual Boeing on fire which was obvious as hell that YOU MUST FILM it?


These idiots are annoying. Assume something with their small brain and a little of knowledge and then "PROOVE ME EVERYTHING" and when you lose the enormous amount of time proving it so that even a stupid monkey could get it they say that it's just a point of vue. Been there, done that  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 16, 2014, 11:52:44 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 16, 2014, 12:19:51 pm

Not sure if it was posted here or not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on November 16, 2014, 09:16:58 pm
Reuters and AFP or any western agencies have lost their credibility since a long time for me. In fact, since the second Intifada, where I've understood they were just a propaganda machine.

I suppose russian agencies works the same way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on November 16, 2014, 10:29:17 pm
Quote from: Tovi on November 16, 2014, 09:16:58 pm
I suppose russian agencies works the same way.
Of course not, what makes you say that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 17, 2014, 04:37:28 am
Quote from: Tovi on November 16, 2014, 09:16:58 pm
Reuters and AFP or any western agencies have lost their credibility since a long time for me. In fact, since the second Intifada, where I've understood they were just a propaganda machine.

I suppose russian agencies works the same way.
Didn't you ban yourself from this thread twice?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 17, 2014, 09:01:49 am
Quote from: Xant on November 17, 2014, 04:37:28 am
Didn't you ban yourself from this thread twice?

He's probably posting to keep you posting.  You said earlier that he wasn't trolling, well...

Just sayin'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 17, 2014, 10:31:15 am
DonNicko - I found proof of Crimea being painlessly integrated into russia - here http://www.hrw.org/node/130595/

On the fun side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA-keQDAV68
https://twitter.com/CWynnykWilson/status/533759178292985856/photo/1

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on November 17, 2014, 11:09:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on November 17, 2014, 10:31:15 am
On the fun side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA-keQDAV68
https://twitter.com/CWynnykWilson/status/533759178292985856/photo/1
it is success of European diplomacy!  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on November 17, 2014, 11:43:50 am
You are the trolls here.

When US diplomacy shows evidences like this :
(click to show/hide)

Nobody moves a neurone.

Is it really the US satellite resolution ???
While even Google can make pictures like this :
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on November 17, 2014, 12:10:05 pm
What makes you say the Google Earth picture is a satellite picture?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 17, 2014, 01:24:20 pm
Quote from: Tovi on November 17, 2014, 11:43:50 am
You are the trolls here.

When US diplomacy shows evidences like this :
(click to show/hide)

Nobody moves a neurone.

Is it really the US satellite resolution ???
While even Google can make pictures like this :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I think US explicitly said, that they will not be publishing the photos of their military grade satellites, which is where digital globe, privately owned company, steps in and shows its cheaper, less sophisticated capabilities... Which IMO is understandable, no?

Quote from: Vovka on November 17, 2014, 11:09:56 am
it is success of European diplomacy!  :lol:
OR - putler is so obnoxious, even his BRIC pals hate the stench of his breath...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 17, 2014, 01:47:04 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on November 17, 2014, 09:01:49 am
He's probably posting to keep you posting.  You said earlier that he wasn't trolling, well...

Just sayin'
You're clearly not intelligent enough to understand the dynamic here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 17, 2014, 03:46:12 pm
Quote from: Xant on November 17, 2014, 01:47:04 pm
You're clearly not intelligent enough to understand the dynamic here.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on November 18, 2014, 09:54:18 am
Quote from: Tovi on November 17, 2014, 11:43:50 am
You are the trolls here.

When US diplomacy shows evidences like this :
(click to show/hide)

Nobody moves a neurone.

Is it really the US satellite resolution ???
While even Google can make pictures like this :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Tovi, I'm just curious. Are you seriously that retarded?

When the whole Russian media (and ofc a retard known as Tovi) shows a "satellite shot" as a clear evidence of Ukrainian aircraft destroying Boeing sure thing that people "move neurons". Because people of kind don't have anything to move in their brain, not a single neuron. Otherwise I can't understand how could anyone with a one millionth part of knowledge of how things work and 1% of common sense see that this is not a cheap fake made by either someone with Down syndrome or a kid who just reached mom's Adobe Photoshop.  Also you posted that shitty fake even after I've already managed to laugh about it in this thread.

Also open your ass and look in the left bottom corner of the picture to find a sign of the company that gave these satellite shots.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 18, 2014, 11:08:16 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on November 18, 2014, 09:54:18 am
Tovi, I'm just curious. Are you seriously that retarded?

It really is amazing how he keeps showing his stupidity over and over again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 19, 2014, 06:42:49 am
Its getting kinda cute now and even a bit sad. Anyway I dont even know why I got so fired up before. I mean his posts, they are kinda like Meleegaming's own FOX news. They arent ment to be taken seriusly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 20, 2014, 11:37:43 am
Lets see if these are as fun for others as they are funny for russians :)
Source: http://www.interpretermag.com/russians-beginning-to-laugh-at-putin/

    A man comes into a drug store and says he isn’t feeling well. The druggist asks if he has a prescription. The man replies, “Isn’t a Russian passport enough?”

    One Russian says he has watched “Planet of the Apes. The Revolution.” Another replies that he has listened to Putin’s latest speech.

    A Russian is asked to name the Russian product which enjoys the greatest demand in the population. His response: Putin’s lies. “Why not vodka?” he is asked. To which the first responds: “Because the number of consumers of vodka is much smaller.”

    Putin says that the Russian army will be supplied with the most advanced offensive and defensive arms. A Russian replies that this means he is again going to use women and children “behind the backs of whom will be concealed polite ‘little green men.’”

    Putin decides that he will in no case fall behind the leaders of Western countries. When they introduce sanctions against Russia, Putin does the same, not only imposing sanctions but also imposing them against Russia.

    Asked whether he plans to put up the iron curtain again, Putin replies that no, he will only use barbed wire this time around.

    Putin acknowledges that the ruble of Russians has fallen but points out that Russians have risen from their knees.

    The Russian Federal Service for Narcotics Control comes out against the legalization of drugs in Russia. Their reason? “Putin and Moscow television are more than sufficient.”

    Given the number of airline accidents with which Russia is involved, it appears that Putin served not in the KGB but in the Anti-Aircraft Forces.

    Two prisoners are talking. One asks “For what were you convicted?” The other says he created a comic strip showing that President Putin is an idiot. Under what paragraph of the law were you sentenced, the first asks, hooliganism or extremism? The second replies: no, not either of these, rather for revealing a state secret.

    After Moscow occupies Crimea, Yanukovich asks Putin whether he can go to Foros and be the lawful president there. Putin replies: “No, you are only a lawful president in Rostov.”

    When Putin is flying away from Brisbane, his press secretary finds him in tears. Peskov says he shouldn’t be upset by what the G-20 leaders said. To which Putin replies, “But I cannot forget that koala and how he embraced me!”
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on November 20, 2014, 02:33:10 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on November 20, 2014, 11:37:43 am
(click to show/hide)
only in your wet dreams XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on November 20, 2014, 04:49:13 pm
Russian jokes and sayings are always funny but the ones I see have a tone to them like its people saying them in whispered voices in the back of pubs while starving to death and laughing about bleak cruel lives. Which is hilarious but very different from American "comedy" which is typically real boisterous and emotional, ranting about daily annoying BS that everyone gets, or storytelling and commentating with long anecdotes. instead of like "resigned eastern european fatalism and ironic self-awareness of despair"

Is there anything like popular stand-up comedians or public satire shows and stuff in Russia? Like sketch comedians, Daily Show styled commentary, people on stage rambling about how shitty their lives are in funny way. Popular Russian, Polish, Ukranian, etc media that is relatable or translated or anything to wider audiences?

We are all starting to really love their game design which captures this crushing sense of loneliness and despair and shit like those jokes though. This War of Mine only the most recent example. Would like to see other kinds of media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on November 21, 2014, 08:02:04 pm
russian comedy, >1.20    :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thryn on November 22, 2014, 05:26:41 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 23, 2014, 12:14:23 am
What song is that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 23, 2014, 12:36:00 am
Quote from: Kafein on November 23, 2014, 12:14:23 am
What song is that?
I think this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZIn4sXPK4
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 23, 2014, 01:20:42 am
Yep, no wonder I didn't knew about that one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 23, 2014, 07:42:26 am
Quote from: Kafein on November 23, 2014, 01:20:42 am
Yep, no wonder I didn't knew about that one.
Know*

Jesus, Kafein. You're a TRAINWRECK.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 23, 2014, 01:02:54 pm
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/761209

Hilarious. Also hilarious how it goes against everything the Russian apologists were spewing when the first little green men were popping up in Crimea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 23, 2014, 01:10:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on November 23, 2014, 01:02:54 pm
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/761209

Hilarious. Also hilarious how it goes against everything the Russian apologists were spewing when the first little green men were popping up in Crimea.
Quote
“It's those trying to race us who are in the opposite lane now. We keep driving along ours at a steady speed,” Putin said obviously meaning the present-day Russia.
Hm.
If we are gonna inpict it like that. Russia is basically a minivan, running over bicycles and scooters that are in the opposite lane, in hopes that it would some way profit it and make it the king of the highway and eventually when they end up driving into trucks or other minivans, Russia has noone else to blame but itself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 23, 2014, 10:50:55 pm
Quote from: Xant on November 23, 2014, 07:42:26 am
Know*

Jesus, Kafein. You're a TRAINWRECK.

English verb tenses are horribly confusing when you come from French.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 24, 2014, 03:27:22 pm
Some nice read about the actual fucked up reality of "russian world"... :|

http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1416780928
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on November 25, 2014, 06:43:15 pm
В декабре Земля погрузится во МРАК!
В этом Путин Виноват!
 :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thryn on November 25, 2014, 07:20:44 pm
does anyone actually give a shit about xant
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 25, 2014, 07:44:20 pm
You sound upset. What's the matter, did I say something offensive about your beloved Putin?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on November 25, 2014, 07:49:43 pm
Quote from: Thryn on November 25, 2014, 07:20:44 pm
does anyone actually give a shit about xant

I guess you, since you are shitposting about him?

Hate the posts, not the poster.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on November 25, 2014, 07:50:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on November 25, 2014, 07:44:20 pm
You sound upset. What's the matter, did I say something offensive about your beloved Putin?

This coming from the angriest man on the board
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on November 26, 2014, 11:04:00 am

in Russia ends with food, people are trying to break into the Baltic to get some...i blame Putin!!  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 27, 2014, 10:55:17 am
Quote from: Vovka on November 26, 2014, 11:04:00 am

in Russia ends with food, people are trying to break into the Baltic to get some...i blame Putin!!  :(

But you still have cheap sprats, no?

On topic: shutka! https://twitter.com/pete_leonard/status/537739930181435392

Also not sure if this is propaganda, but still - interesting watch (in russian only unfortunately) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5n2ROComI
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on November 27, 2014, 04:55:04 pm
I'm not sure is this fake or not
(click to show/hide)
We need get them together with russian 88 and make Unreal Tournament  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 28, 2014, 04:33:35 pm
Paragraph 4 for a future outlook of "russian world"  :rolleyes:
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/127731
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on November 28, 2014, 08:14:58 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foSg6Ch97V4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 28, 2014, 09:30:55 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on November 28, 2014, 08:14:58 pm

good speech!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on November 28, 2014, 10:43:22 pm
the best part is when the whole room laughing at a joke about the shootdowned aircraft with 290 ppls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on November 29, 2014, 06:37:12 pm
Quote from: Vovka on November 28, 2014, 10:43:22 pm
the best part is when the whole room laughing at a joke about the shootdowned aircraft with 290 ppls
I think they were laughing at the absurdity of russian world versions of the event... what with all the zombies and ground-attack planes suddenly going "LOOK MA, I'M AN INTERCEPTOR!"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on November 30, 2014, 08:13:41 am
Post-modern antirationalism is a poison. It always comes back to that. From the extreme right wing to the extreme left wing, it is the same ideological/philosophical source, ensconced in academia and completely disconnected from reality. The really salient point in this speech is that this is much, much bigger than just the Ukraine. "Orwellian moment" indeed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 30, 2014, 06:50:36 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on November 30, 2014, 08:13:41 am
Post-modern antirationalism is a poison. It always comes back to that. From the extreme right wing to the extreme left wing, it is the same ideological/philosophical source, ensconced in academia and completely disconnected from reality. The really salient point in this speech is that this is much, much bigger than just the Ukraine. "Orwellian moment" indeed.

The kind of derp you see from Putinists goes back to 19th century romanticism, far before Derrida or Foucault.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 01, 2014, 01:29:41 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 01, 2014, 10:08:21 am
Meanwhile in Donbass : http://ria.ru/photolents/20141013/1026557400.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 02, 2014, 08:34:49 am
Het
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 02, 2014, 09:13:03 am
Quote from: Tibe on December 02, 2014, 08:34:49 am
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on December 02, 2014, 12:41:47 pm
Quote from: Tibe on December 02, 2014, 08:34:49 am
Het
(click to show/hide)
Wow Czechoslovakia was such a massacre :shock:
According to wiki CS lose 106lives and mighty Soviets 96
CS better then Taliban :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 02, 2014, 03:25:31 pm
Well Soviet Union practically ganked them with asston of tanks and troops in a very short period of time to make them shut up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 02, 2014, 08:50:13 pm
Proud heroes of the West :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Azov batalion members


NATO will provide them weapons, of course.

Pretty logical after this : http://novorossia.today/editor-s-choice/ukraine-the-usa-and-canada-rejected-the-.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 03, 2014, 03:45:51 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 02, 2014, 08:50:13 pm
Proud heroes of the West :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Azov batalion members


NATO will provide them weapons, of course.

Pretty logical after this : http://novorossia.today/editor-s-choice/ukraine-the-usa-and-canada-rejected-the-.html
You still here? :D I'm proud of you! :rolleyes:

Still russians "had nothing to do with all the unrests, it was ALL naztees"? :)
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-strelkov-fsb-ties-russian-media/26721902.html
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/igor-strelkov-admits-russia-fsb-affiliation-kremlin-censored-interview-1477713

All we need now is DonNicko and his "what about those 40 casualties in Odessa?" and we are back in business :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 03, 2014, 05:35:39 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 03, 2014, 03:45:51 pm
You still here? :D I'm proud of you! :rolleyes:

Still russians "had nothing to do with all the unrests, it was ALL naztees"? :)
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-strelkov-fsb-ties-russian-media/26721902.html
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/igor-strelkov-admits-russia-fsb-affiliation-kremlin-censored-interview-1477713

All we need now is DonNicko and his "what about those 40 casualties in Odessa?" and we are back in business :rolleyes:

Former Russian separatist leader Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin has finally admitted in an interview with a state-run news agency that he is a colonel for the FSB security services.

in an interview with the link they give there is no such words:
"I really am a FSB colonel, so I have a calm attitude and I do not advise you to call my military rank lower than it is. The title has a higher value for the military than [it has] for civilians."

but who cares

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 03, 2014, 07:23:32 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 02, 2014, 08:50:13 pm
Proud heroes of the West :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Azov batalion members


NATO will provide them weapons, of course.

Pretty logical after this : http://novorossia.today/editor-s-choice/ukraine-the-usa-and-canada-rejected-the-.html
Why wouldn't NATO provide them weapons to fight Russian invaders? Why should their political ideology matter in the least?

Oh wait, already asked this question, you weren't able to answer it then, you won't be able to answer it not. Only thing you're capable of is spewing bullshit that gets disproven, then you stay quiet for a day, post new bullshit without even acknowledging your previous bullshit that was disproven, cycle continues.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 03, 2014, 08:15:39 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 03, 2014, 05:35:39 pm
Former Russian separatist leader Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin has finally admitted in an interview with a state-run news agency that he is a colonel for the FSB security services.

in an interview with the link they give there is no such words:
"I really am a FSB colonel, so I have a calm attitude and I do not advise you to call my military rank lower than it is. The title has a higher value for the military than [it has] for civilians."

but who cares

"The agency later redacted the interview, removing the passage mentioning the FSB, but the original version can still be seen on PolitNavigator website. The author Alexander Chalenko explained the changes by saying that the editor wanted to reduce the article's length and keep "the right questions and answers"."

linked politnavigator site: http://www.politnavigator.net/strelkov-bez-kupyur-intervyu-s-komandirom.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 03, 2014, 09:54:12 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 03, 2014, 05:35:39 pm
Former Russian separatist leader Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin has finally admitted in an interview with a state-run news agency that he is a colonel for the FSB security services.

in an interview with the link they give there is no such words:
"I really am a FSB colonel, so I have a calm attitude and I do not advise you to call my military rank lower than it is. The title has a higher value for the military than [it has] for civilians."

but who cares
You consumed the wrong (a.k.a."too long version") which did not have the "removal of irrelevant details" applied to it...  :rolleyes: But Bloody_Nine beat me to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 03, 2014, 10:18:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 03, 2014, 07:23:32 pm
(click to show/hide)
Why do you honor him by even writing a reply to his bullshit? Just ignore it. If his posts end up unawnsered he will eventually leave himself. Guy is a hopeless nutcase.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 04, 2014, 12:00:11 pm
THIS might be one of the bestest trolling ideas I have heard recently  :rolleyes: :

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/position-unit-tanks-near-russian-border-and-tell-putin-they-are-americans-sightseeing/y1cXSYH4
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on December 04, 2014, 02:01:40 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 04, 2014, 12:00:11 pm
THIS might be one of the bestest trolling ideas I have heard recently  :rolleyes: :

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/position-unit-tanks-near-russian-border-and-tell-putin-they-are-americans-sightseeing/y1cXSYH4

i honestly havent figured out why they havent taken down this petition shit yet, its used for nothing more then to troll the whitehouse with feeble bullshit, and its nothing more then a waste of time.  The only people who honestly petition anything on there are gay ass reddit kiddies that think they are being cute by passing huge petitions for arbitrary shit like deporting justin beiber, though cute, fucking pointless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 04, 2014, 02:21:28 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on December 04, 2014, 02:01:40 pm
i honestly havent figured out why they havent taken down this petition shit yet, its used for nothing more then to troll the whitehouse with feeble bullshit, and its nothing more then a waste of time.  The only people who honestly petition anything on there are gay ass reddit kiddies that think they are being cute by passing huge petitions for arbitrary shit like deporting justin beiber, though cute, fucking pointless.

mh, just glanced over the more popular petitions and they seem less retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 04, 2014, 03:04:19 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 04, 2014, 12:00:11 pm
THIS might be one of the bestest trolling ideas I have heard recently  :rolleyes: :

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/position-unit-tanks-near-russian-border-and-tell-putin-they-are-americans-sightseeing/y1cXSYH4

usa terrorist eliminated in chechnia today  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on December 04, 2014, 05:02:50 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on December 04, 2014, 02:21:28 pm
mh, just glanced over the more popular petitions and they seem less retarded.

half of the top petitions are political bias, irrelevant, or unnecessary for the whitehouse to be bothered with.  Like garnishing 40k signatures to have Obama sit an hour with a financial expert to listen to a tax lecture; or firing random people for "x" reason, or even more lolzy, pardoning snowden.(will never happen, committed treason)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 04, 2014, 05:04:48 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 04, 2014, 03:04:19 pm
<...>
usa terrorist eliminated in chechnia today  :?
RT/LifeNews or Sputnik version? :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 04, 2014, 07:10:37 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 04, 2014, 05:04:48 pm
RT/LifeNews or Sputnik version? :lol:

I would certainly could google and find an article  "The United States and conspiracy in Chechnya" in the 3rd sort newspaper from the half-wit author but I'm lazy soI just went "kuujis style" and just pulled from my ass random shit with links  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on December 05, 2014, 04:20:59 pm
skip to 5 min for the shelling

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 05, 2014, 04:34:02 pm
Quote from: Umbra on December 05, 2014, 04:20:59 pm
skip to 5 min for the shelling

feature films to collect money  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 05, 2014, 05:15:03 pm
Yup. Utterly idiotic propaganda for the stupid masses, in style similar to Soviet times. Something Ukraine and Russia have in common.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Admerius on December 05, 2014, 05:54:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 02, 2014, 08:50:13 pm
Proud heroes of the West :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Azov batalion members


NATO will provide them weapons, of course.

Pretty logical after this : http://novorossia.today/editor-s-choice/ukraine-the-usa-and-canada-rejected-the-.html

I lol'd, what are they going to do as chocolate chip cookies?

"We chocolate chip cookie and slavonic people, when we rise to power we will commit mass-suicide to provide lebensraum for the führer!"

YMCA=Right turned cute puppy, old roman salute, childish macho ideals from greek mythology "we all hercules!", naive missinterpretation of nietsche, superiority of germanic people(Vikings? Goths?), catholic old school blame the jews.

This form of facism is for germanic people, not for any other ethnic group(like the slavonic)
The only thing that would make sense of this is if they are deluded into believeing they are the "pureblood decendants of swedish vikings" they sure not look like that, they look at minimum mixed-slavonic/germanic accroding to 1930's "science" of the races.

I would not provide armaments to them under these circumstances, their seeming lack of... political/intellectual consistency... would just make things worse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 06, 2014, 12:03:01 am
Quote from: Admerius on December 05, 2014, 05:54:59 pm
I lol'd, what are they going to do as chocolate chip cookies?

"We chocolate chip cookie and slavonic people, when we rise to power we will commit mass-suicide to provide lebensraum for the führer!"

YMCA=Right turned cute puppy, old roman salute, childish macho ideals from greek mythology "we all hercules!", naive missinterpretation of nietsche, superiority of germanic people(Vikings? Goths?), catholic old school blame the jews.

This form of facism is for germanic people, not for any other ethnic group(like the slavonic)
The only thing that would make sense of this is if they are deluded into believeing they are the "pureblood decendants of swedish vikings" they sure not look like that, they look at minimum mixed-slavonic/germanic accroding to 1930's "science" of the races.

I would not provide armaments to them under these circumstances, their seeming lack of... political/intellectual consistency... would just make things worse.
Because when you're attacked by Russia is the best time to be picky about who you let die for you. "No no no, your political views are WRONG, I won't let you help me against this overwhelming enemy!!! I only accept help from likeminded individuals!!!!!!!!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 06, 2014, 12:54:18 am
Quote from: Vovka on December 04, 2014, 07:10:37 pm
I would certainly could google and find an article  "The United States and conspiracy in Chechnya" in the 3rd sort newspaper from the half-wit author but I'm lazy soI just went "kuujis style" and just pulled from my ass random shit with links  :P
Would you care for some refreshing non-west media describing russian economy as basically fucked up (i.e. same as the other west media?) http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/12/navigating-russia-imploding-economy-201412563345540830.html

How are you sprats? Still affordable? Getting cheaper maybe? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 06, 2014, 02:19:22 am
Quote from: Kuujis on December 06, 2014, 12:54:18 am
How are you sprats? Still affordable? Getting cheaper maybe? :rolleyes:
In St. Petersburg, prices have not changed since we talked about it for the first time
perhaps this will change after the new years holidays
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 06, 2014, 11:45:02 am
Jesus Vovka, why do you even live in that place? I think even the most patriotic russian is slightly aware that their government is significantly more retarded than other governments in most other places in the modern world. Its only a matter of time til they go full retard and you and your families human rights will be taken from you. If they had an alternative they would very gladly cut your internet aswell. Thou I think in recent years the voices against Western internet disease that is hurting the mighty Federation have toned it down a little, eversince they discovered that the internet is a very good place to share their fake evidence aswell, to counter someone elses fake evidence or the actual truth. Jup, freedum of speech works both ways.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 06, 2014, 12:58:55 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on December 04, 2014, 05:02:50 pm
half of the top petitions are political bias, irrelevant, or unnecessary for the whitehouse to be bothered with.  Like garnishing 40k signatures to have Obama sit an hour with a financial expert to listen to a tax lecture; or firing random people for "x" reason, or even more lolzy, pardoning snowden.(will never happen, committed treason)

You just realized petitions might be political?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 06, 2014, 03:48:16 pm
Peoples are less naives now

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on December 06, 2014, 09:09:55 pm
Quote from: Kafein on December 06, 2014, 12:58:55 pm
You just realized petitions might be political?

reading apprehension
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on December 06, 2014, 09:46:34 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 06, 2014, 03:48:16 pm
Peoples are less naives now


Youtube really needs to stop hosting this shit, or at least put a disclaimer on it warning the ignorant that this is BS
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 07, 2014, 09:31:48 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on December 06, 2014, 09:46:34 pm
Youtube really needs to stop hosting this shit, or at least put a disclaimer on it warning the ignorant that this is BS

They will, one day or another. And you may sleep and vote as usual. Don't worry. Everything is under control.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 07, 2014, 10:38:37 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 07, 2014, 09:31:48 pm
They will, one day or another. And you may sleep and vote as usual. Don't worry. Everything is under control.
As opposed to what you are doing, heroically fixing the situation... by posting ridiculous conspiracy crap on an indie video game mod forums where nobody takes you seriously. Truly, you are a champion of the people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on December 07, 2014, 10:52:53 pm
I'm amazed youtube hasn't taken down what he's posted on grounds of spam, all that shit of his needs to be flagged
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 08, 2014, 01:27:53 pm
   Putin evil machine launched a criminal case against the grandmother (Chairman of Soldiers' Mothers) of 73 years who have diabetes and heart disease. And all because of the fact that she gave secret information about thousands of dead Russian soldiers.  :( after this news I want to run in the free Ukraine, the first country that is so free that voluntary voted for external management xnxnxnxnx
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 08, 2014, 04:11:13 pm
Heart disease treatment is costly in Russia.

Quote from: Tovi on December 07, 2014, 09:31:48 pm
They will, one day or another. And you may sleep and vote as usual. Don't worry. Everything is under control.

Those guys are really the worst conspiracy ever, they don't even try to silence you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 09, 2014, 08:26:17 pm
I'll just leave this here for you  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 11, 2014, 09:07:50 pm
There is no conspiracy. Your TV just says ": well, there is some riots in HK and they hold umbrellas". It's not exactly a lie, it's just "informations for the dumbs".  :mrgreen:


Does your favorite media talk about this for exemple ?

As I always say : there is no conspiracy, because there is nothing secret, everything is under your eyes but you don't want to see. And masters don't plot against their slaves, they just lie to them. All your conspiracy fantasies are ridiculous.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 11, 2014, 09:56:30 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 11, 2014, 09:07:50 pm
There is no conspiracy. Your TV just says ": well, there is some riots in HK and they hold umbrellas". It's not exactly a lie, it's just "informations for the dumbs".  :mrgreen:


(click to show/hide)

As I always say : there is no conspiracy, because there is nothing secret, everything is under your eyes but you don't want to see. And masters don't plot against their slaves, they just lie to them. All your conspiracy fantasies are ridiculous.
In russian we just sell homless to chechnia as a slaves for building mosque or sending in ukrain as "opolchenie"

btw i bet its a photo with refugees from Kosovo or smth
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 11, 2014, 10:10:27 pm
You're right, they don't look americans (all white and thin...), but the information may be true.

So, let's have some fiction  8-)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 12, 2014, 12:20:44 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 12, 2014, 11:04:53 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 11, 2014, 10:10:27 pm
You're right, they don't look americans (all white and thin...), but the information may be true.
<...>

A couple stays in an hotel for 4 hours, since they needed a quick sleep badly. At check-out they get a bill of 300, since a pool, gym, hotel park and performance were included in the price, which are available for hotel guests to enjoy.
The guy gives them a 100$ and a bill for the manager for sleeping with his wife.
Manager says - but I did not sleep with your wife!
The guy says - well, but she was available for you to sleep with and I charge you 200 for it.

Moral of the story: "there is a bunch of things which MAY be true" :)

Also, a bit more on topic:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/opinion/russias-ideology-there-is-no-truth.html?_r=0
And a select paragraph, which I find so uncomfortably spot-on, that I don't even have anything to add:
Quote
When members of this generation came to power they created a society that was a feast of simulations, with fake elections, a fake free press, a fake free market and fake justice. They are led by religious Russian patriots who curse the decadent West while keeping their children and money in London and informed by television producers who make Putin-worshiping shows during the day, and listen to energetically anti-Putin radio shows the moment they get into their cars after work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 12, 2014, 11:23:57 am
Quote from: Kuujis on December 12, 2014, 11:04:53 am
Also, a bit more on topic:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/opinion/russias-ideology-there-is-no-truth.html?_r=0
And a select paragraph, which I find so uncomfortably spot-on, that I don't even have anything to add:
and only 1 comment from a KGB resident

Quote
Mark Thomason
is a trusted commenter Clawson, MI 5 hours ago
This is a bold thing to write about Russia, at the exact time our own government is fighting so hard to hide reports of what it has done.
We have the present huge fight over a "summary" of one report, and another huge fight to hide documents and pictures underlying the report that is also being hidden.
So who is pretending there is no truth? Why Putin. Look over there. Isn't it BAD to do that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 12, 2014, 01:10:04 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 12, 2014, 11:23:57 am
and only 1 comment from a KGB resident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
You are doing it right 8-) Instead of addressing actual contents of the article.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 12, 2014, 01:23:01 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 12, 2014, 01:10:04 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
You are doing it right 8-) Instead of addressing actual contents of the article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/opinion/russias-ideology-there-is-no-truth.html?_r=0
kk check it now 27 and all 1h ago.... must be punish the KGB, sloppy work (
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 12, 2014, 01:41:15 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 12, 2014, 01:10:04 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
You are doing it right 8-) Instead of addressing actual contents of the article.
Thats Russian politics at its finest. I loved that one comment where the Russian official said towards the US:"What about Ferguson and those riots, stop criticizing us and look how bad your country is!" Russian propaganda is roughly the same it was 40 years ago and so is their understanding in foreign politics. The West also has propaganda, but atleast its not so primitive that its insulting the intelligence of everyone who wasnt born in a fucking Siberian animalfarm. It really is remarkable, but pretty much all of their counterarguments can be summed up with the words "no u". They really have no actual facts or evidence to counter their critics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 14, 2014, 08:58:27 pm
No news from Dave. Has he been catched by the 4th mobilization ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 15, 2014, 08:43:09 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 14, 2014, 08:58:27 pm
No news from Dave. Has he been catched by the 4th mobilization ?
No, he grind items in DotA and sells them at auction to feed the family and UA army
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 15, 2014, 02:17:41 pm
Some useful informations :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on December 15, 2014, 03:08:25 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 15, 2014, 02:17:41 pm
Some useful informations :

shitty youtube propaganda link

piss poor propaganda

literally the oddest video ive ever watched.

"fails to speak Ukrainian"
"russia has technology on its tanks that makes the west envious"
Ukraine has new tanks, this is how you destroy them
"to set this tank on fire, burn its radiator"
"to approach this tank, dead zone is 20-30m"
"to weaken this tank, shoot its optic unit in the front"

fuck, they might as well label the video "how to become a Freedom Fighter by endorsed and paid ugly russian news reporter"


im ad libbing here of course, but wow, this is a direct quote from this video.........

"tank t-72 b1 tank, its most vulnerable spot is weak electronics.  So if you, for example, hit the turret with RPG-7, tanks aiming and turret control system might be disabled, and it takes about 15-20mins to reboot the system."

why does this all matter, why are you reporting on this?  Is this some sort of attempt to educate and show the weakness of Ukraine with a thin veil?


more quotes, because why not, fucking hilarious honestly.

"[speaks Ukrainian, failing to pronounce some words due to frost or alcohol]"

just a side note, i like how any time they put up state Ukrainian broadcasts, they mispell words and put up all these boxes to tell you which dialect they have, as if it matters.  Yet 3 seconds later, they spell the word completely fine. 

ah, finally got to the end of the video, she identifies herself as a Donbass resident tired of war, now it all makes sense, dat bias.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on December 15, 2014, 03:26:03 pm
Everyone knows you would want a German Leopard 2 anyway... :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 15, 2014, 06:30:08 pm
That is one weird ass video, and Tovi's comment on it is even weirder. Not that I'm surprised, mind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 15, 2014, 10:10:22 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 15, 2014, 02:17:41 pm
Some useful informations :


Bitch please, playing World of Tanks/War Thunder gave me more useful information than this shitty video.

And that says a lot  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2014, 12:23:56 am
Quote from: Christo on December 15, 2014, 10:10:22 pm
Bitch please, playing World of Tanks/War Thunder gave me more useful information than this shitty video.

And that says a lot  :lol:

arty op
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 16, 2014, 08:34:19 am
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hit with a shovel at vulnerable sites

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 16, 2014, 09:17:54 am
Quote from: Vovka on December 16, 2014, 08:34:19 am
(click to show/hide)
Combat shovels, that shit aint no joke
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 16, 2014, 10:49:05 am
How is it possible, though, that every single thing Tovi posts is 100% shit? It's amazing, it must be a gift or something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 16, 2014, 10:59:04 am
Quote from: Kafein on December 16, 2014, 12:23:56 am
arty op

This guy knows what he be sayin'

I went back to WoT and every time I start having fun.. scumbag arty happens.  :mrgreen:

Quote from: Xant on December 16, 2014, 10:49:05 am
How is it possible, though, that every single thing Tovi posts is 100% shit? It's amazing, it must be a gift or something.

I always play with the possibility that it's on purpose.
But again that's just me trying to find sense in it, bad idea to begin with
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on December 16, 2014, 12:17:56 pm
Merry xmas folks :)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on December 16, 2014, 05:59:26 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/david-j-kramer-there-will-be-no-win-win-deal-with-putin/2014/12/11/a70df8c4-7fd2-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 16, 2014, 06:17:00 pm
He's not wrong on everything though. An agreement between anybody and Russia isn't possible as long as there is 0 chance of Russia actually following the terms of the agreement. As long as efforts to decrease tensions are used to lie and push further, there's no point trying.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 16, 2014, 07:31:28 pm
China is big winner of this crisis anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on December 16, 2014, 10:28:19 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 15, 2014, 08:43:09 am
No, he grind items in DotA and sells them at auction to feed the family and UA army
i think you should rather stand a line in an exchange office.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 17, 2014, 08:53:43 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on December 16, 2014, 10:28:19 pm
i think you should rather stand a line in an exchange office.
Russians historically turned to humor (which I dare say is AT LEAST on par with the english one) to cope with fucked-up reality, don't rob Vovka of it with your grizzly reality.

Besides... most likely there will be no currency available, when his queue comes EVEN if he goes to the queue RIGHT ABOUT NOW :)

Soo... BUY A NEW PHONE! Buy it waterproof. Then you can cry over it all you want!  :rolleyes:

On the upside - at least in Moscow - you can still buy some ILLEGAL EU cheese... so cute!
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-underground-cheese-market-2014-12
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 17, 2014, 09:14:22 am
all my spare money in the dollar and euro accounts) but thanks for your concern ^^

I will take this into account during my travel on a tank across Europe this summer  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 17, 2014, 09:20:57 am
Quote from: Vovka on December 17, 2014, 09:14:22 am
all my spare money in the dollar and euro accounts) but thanks for your concern ^^

I will take this into account during my travel on a tank across Europe this summer  :P

Did you try like... ACCESSING those funds?  You know... USING them? Because from what I read - several of the biggest banks "had technical problems with banking websites" and/or imposed severe limitations...  :rolleyes:

Next thing you know - you get cut off from swift and then all you CAN do is take a tank for vacations into EU to get your cash...

Need to get popcorn.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on December 17, 2014, 10:04:14 am
Which brings us back to the food prices... Has there been a change recent couple of days?

No trolling, genuinely wondering...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 17, 2014, 10:08:53 am
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2014, 10:04:14 am
Which brings us back to the food prices... Has there been a change recent couple of days?
No trolling, genuinely wondering...
yep like 5-10% on certain types of products in the supermarket where I buy)) I can not speak for the entire city and especially for Russia))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on December 17, 2014, 10:36:40 am
Up to 10% is already quite a lot on certain things. I would have guessed that "they" supported the food prices so they stay the same tbh.
6.5% added interest up to 17% overall now, those are big numbers...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 17, 2014, 11:34:29 am
All going according to plan, if you believe Putin. Kind of stupid of him to even say that, since now logically Russians should blame him for the bad economy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 17, 2014, 12:07:32 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 17, 2014, 11:34:29 am
All going according to plan, if you believe Putin. Kind of stupid of him to even say that, since now logically Russians should blame him for the bad economy.

In putlers russia you THANK government for doing ANYTHING (including creating problems where there were none), not blame them. Blaming is too negative. This casually called "blaming" is infact a MASON-NWO cooperatively created "critique" doctrine-thingy, which is capitalist-naztee-faztizt-junta-rotten-west thing, invented to topple russian so called "government".

Tru story.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 17, 2014, 02:42:27 pm
They should blame Saudi Arabia instead. And soon, american people will blame them too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 17, 2014, 03:06:11 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 17, 2014, 02:42:27 pm
They should blame Saudi Arabia instead. And soon, american people will blame them too.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on December 17, 2014, 03:06:55 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 17, 2014, 09:14:22 am
all my spare money in the dollar and euro accounts) but thanks for your concern ^^

I will take this into account during my travel on a tank across Europe this summer  :P

euro is a fail (though not so big as the ruble :D), go for swiss franc instead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 17, 2014, 03:16:00 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 17, 2014, 04:19:50 pm
Quote from: Xant on December 17, 2014, 11:34:29 am
All going according to plan, if you believe Putin. Kind of stupid of him to even say that, since now logically Russians should blame him for the bad economy.

Well, logically they should yea. But russians arent logical people. To many of those people the blame will still fall on the "evil West, trying to bend the motherland to its evil grasp", so they have to be extra strong now to prove the evil West wrong. Yep, that is definately how its gonna play out. They would gladly go so far as to even be homeless and starving to prove that the West has no influence over them, before thinking that it could all be their own governments doing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on December 17, 2014, 04:22:53 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 17, 2014, 02:42:27 pm
They should blame Saudi Arabia instead. And soon, american people will blame them too.
Huh? Why? :shock:
Oil was expensive, USA started fracking like mad and didn't buy Oil anymore as much, same for China, prize dropped, lowering production doesn't make sense in the Middle East, Russia fucked cuz they depended on selling Oil (more than Gas btw), Venezuela is fucked, iirc Malaysia is fucked, every little country with oil is fucked cuz USA and China don't buy as much as they used to.

But yea, Saudi Arabia's fault, clearly :|

Guess my bad for not understanding the obvious connections of the NWO and Illuminati here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on December 17, 2014, 05:13:59 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 17, 2014, 06:46:12 pm
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2014, 04:22:53 pm
Huh? Why? :shock:
Oil was expensive, USA started fracking like mad and didn't buy Oil anymore as much, same for China, prize dropped, lowering production doesn't make sense in the Middle East, Russia fucked cuz they depended on selling Oil (more than Gas btw), Venezuela is fucked, iirc Malaysia is fucked, every little country with oil is fucked cuz USA and China don't buy as much as they used to.

But yea, Saudi Arabia's fault, clearly :|

Guess my bad for not understanding the obvious connections of the NWO and Illuminati here.
See my reply to his post, all is explained.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on December 17, 2014, 07:02:07 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on December 17, 2014, 07:35:20 pm
Quote from: BASNAK on December 17, 2014, 07:02:07 pm
i lold
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 17, 2014, 09:29:30 pm
Quote from: Molly on December 17, 2014, 04:22:53 pm
Huh? Why? :shock:
Oil was expensive, USA started fracking like mad and didn't buy Oil anymore as much, same for China, prize dropped, lowering production doesn't make sense in the Middle East, Russia fucked cuz they depended on selling Oil (more than Gas btw), Venezuela is fucked, iirc Malaysia is fucked, every little country with oil is fucked cuz USA and China don't buy as much as they used to.

But yea, Saudi Arabia's fault, clearly :|

Guess my bad for not understanding the obvious connections of the NWO and Illuminati here.

Me too, I've never talked about NWO (I don't know what it is). Some dude did, not me.

The next financial crack will come from the US/Canada shale gas bubble. So, the economic weapon is dangerous for both sides.

Note that the low value of the ruble is pretty good to lower the oil price in Russia (employees are paid in rubles).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 17, 2014, 11:30:42 pm
Amusingly enough, OPEP is now actively trying to keep the prices down. Maybe the dumping will work, but for how long? Also lol ruble.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on December 18, 2014, 12:06:33 am
It will keep production high since a lot of these middle eastern oil producing countries have vast forex reserves they can tap into. They also balanced their budgets with a lower oil price in mind (maybe not all I remember seeing a chart somewhere where one country assumed a price of $40 for oil). Since Gulf countries hold the most sway and they can weather the storm for quite a long while I don't see production decreasing any time soon. They want to gut the shale/tar sand boom and if prices keep free falling it will become unprofitable to do unconventional extraction.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 18, 2014, 08:40:49 am
Time to nuke some oil-producing countries  :P



Have friend of my friend who work in bank in credit section
They already work for a weak 24/24 7/7
ppl go mad take credit in rubles and by cars, yesterday woman from moscow bought 3 Porsche Cayenne cos in Moscow stock is over
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on December 18, 2014, 10:46:42 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 17, 2014, 09:29:30 pm
[...]
Note that the low value of the ruble is pretty good to lower the oil price in Russia (employees are paid in rubles).
...and since oil is traded in $$$ it sucks balls for Russia. -.-
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 18, 2014, 11:25:19 am
http://rt.com/news/215471-putin-press-conference-updates/ (http://rt.com/news/215471-putin-press-conference-updates/)

everything is fine guys, dont panic

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 18, 2014, 11:35:21 am
Comments posted here are not enough for you? )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 18, 2014, 11:39:38 am
нет))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 18, 2014, 11:55:03 am
suka xnxnxnxnx
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 18, 2014, 03:19:25 pm
Some jokes on topic  :rolleyes:

http://www.interpretermag.com/six-bitter-russian-jokes-about-russias-economic-collapse/

When there are 30 rubles to the dollar, Russians say “Crimea is Ours.” When the exchange rate falls to 40, they say we will build a “super-bridge” to the peninsula. When it is at 50, they say it will simply be a bridge. At 60, a ferry. At 90, they say that Crimea is yours. And at 100, they propose giving Ukraine the Kuban as a gift as well.

a Russian is asked “what is the real relationship between the pound, the ruble and the dollar? And he gets the answer: “a pound of rubles is worth a dollar.”

one Russian saved his rubles all his life but then threw himself out the window, only to discover that he still fell more slowly than the value of the ruble.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on December 18, 2014, 04:18:43 pm
lighten the topic? challenge accepted :)


A typical two questions during Russian graduation exam from a high school: "Who is your world's favorite character and why is it Putin"



When can a Russian soldier in Ukraine see some meat?
.
.
When he steps on a minefield.


(and the neverending one)
Three biggest naval disasters?
.
.
Queen Mary fire, sinking of Titanic, not sinking of Aurora.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 18, 2014, 04:21:08 pm
"When can a "insert nationality here" soldier in "country"  see some meat?
.
.
When he steps on a minefield."

not funny at all
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 18, 2014, 09:44:19 pm
Even ukrainian military experts admit there is no russian troops in Donbass.



Also, this is interesting :

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 18, 2014, 09:51:59 pm
Russian expert Elena Vasileva (some of you have mentioned her name before)  admit that Russia has lost more than 4 thousand troops in Ukraine, also she discovered the secret
about how the Russian special services use of zombies rays through mobile phones
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
so for me "expert" in press same as "source" if u see dat word dont read
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 18, 2014, 09:54:36 pm
Regular troops and volunteers are not the same thing. There is also volunteers from many other countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 18, 2014, 10:18:41 pm
Indeed. Some swedish or something sniper had like over 100 kills on him, from killing separatists. He got a massive bounty on his head.

Once again Tovi throws 100s of actual facts that dont support his views aside and picks from the pool of evidence whatever he feels like.

Russia just had some secret burials some time ago and statistics show that a lot of their ACTIVE IN DUTY special forces soldiers have ended up mysteriously dead. Dead count is significantly higher than most other not in war countries special forces that commit like a few operations here and there. Not to mention quite a lot of soliders have admitted being commanded and randomly dropped in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 18, 2014, 11:20:27 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 18, 2014, 09:44:19 pm
Even ukrainian military experts admit there is no russian troops in Donbass.



Also, this is interesting :

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 19, 2014, 12:34:16 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 18, 2014, 09:44:19 pm
Even ukrainian military experts russian officials admit there is no russian troops in Donbass several times.
fixed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on December 19, 2014, 07:13:02 am
Quote from: Xant on December 18, 2014, 11:20:27 pm
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Xant, won't you stop trolling this thread ?


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on December 19, 2014, 12:34:16 am
fixed

Proove it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 19, 2014, 07:48:02 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 19, 2014, 07:13:02 am
Xant, won't you stop trolling this thread ?
Wont you? You are like the greatest troll here.

Quote from: Tovi on December 19, 2014, 07:13:02 am
Proove it.
Why? The only sources you believe are RTnews and things randomly quessed by tinfoilhat conspiracists
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 19, 2014, 08:12:18 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 19, 2014, 07:13:02 am
Proove it.

lol, you fucking idiot you prove one single statement of yours or directly answer one of the thousands of questions people asked you.


On the matter I was mistaken, they only officially admit russian soldiers involved in the annexation of crimea, in the ukraine russian soldiers officially only fight on vacation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on December 19, 2014, 08:47:41 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 19, 2014, 07:13:02 am
Prove it.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 19, 2014, 10:20:11 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 19, 2014, 07:13:02 am
Proove it.
A guy with humanitarian aid and his own oppinion on what he saw is better than LOADS of video proofs to the contrary. Not even Tovi-level-of funy anymore.

Also on topic: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/world/europe/putin-cites-claim-about-us-designs-on-siberia-traced-to-russian-mind-readers.html

And some interesting observations here: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-18/putin-isnt-worried-you-should-be
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 19, 2014, 10:57:48 am
Quote from: Tovi on December 19, 2014, 07:13:02 am
Xant, won't you stop trolling this thread ?
Tovi, why won't you leave this thread like you've promised three times already, you absolute fucking nut?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 19, 2014, 11:04:40 am
Quote from: Xant on December 19, 2014, 10:57:48 am
Tovi, why won't you leave this thread like you've promised three times already, you absolute fucking nut?
In this case, your pathetic life will lose the last sense

Quote from: Kuujis on December 19, 2014, 10:20:11 am
A guy with humanitarian aid and his own oppinion on what he saw is better than LOADS of video proofs to the contrary. Not even Tovi-level-of funy anymore.
Also on topic: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/world/europe/putin-cites-claim-about-us-designs-on-siberia-traced-to-russian-mind-readers.html
And some interesting observations here: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-18/putin-isnt-worried-you-should-be
Excellent article, he took from the speech only those responses that meet the objectives of this article, a true journalist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 21, 2014, 04:48:53 pm
As much as I hate Putin and his actions in Ukraine and Crim and don't think he and his fellows should get away with this without punishment, I really doubt we have anything won with getting russia in an economic crisis. Not only that it is bad for every other nation and their economy, but much more that it simply doesn't lead to anything if russia gets more poor and the people there have to suffer. What is won by that? Russia won't back down in Ukraine and it surely won't help to get the russian people have a more educated view on the matter or help them to understand actions of the west.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on December 21, 2014, 05:05:47 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on December 21, 2014, 04:48:53 pm
As much as I hate Putin and his actions in Ukraine and Crim and don't think he and his fellows should get away with this without punishment, I really doubt we have anything won with getting russia in an economic crisis. Not only that it is bad for every other nation and their economy, but much more that it simply doesn't lead to anything if russia gets more poor and the people there have to suffer. What is won by that? Russia won't back down in Ukraine and it surely won't help to get the russian people have a more educated view on the matter or help them to understand actions of the west.

Thats the point, harming the people will cause them to broil over the fact that their government is the one causing their problems, and to solve the problems the people have to simply change the governments actions.  Simple enough, even some half brainwashed russians can understand the ultimatum.  This is why putin is angry with the U.S and NATO over the sanctions, because this isnt simple chest thumping like he wants, this is a new style of war meant to undermine the government and go straight to the people, hurting them hurts him, and forces his hand, or the people suffer, and with it, of course approval.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 21, 2014, 05:44:57 pm
Ye, but saddly Russia isnt a normal country like France or Canada. Most of its inhabitants are significantly brainwashed. EVERY inch of pain they feel they will blame on the West. Its almost like North-Korea. Isolating it from the rest of the World did little to people in power while pretty much everyone else is starving to death with insane dedication on hating the West.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 21, 2014, 11:27:45 pm
I think EU must start kill russian children in schools then brainwashed finally realize how bad putin )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 07:57:45 am
I never stated that Putin was the head and the people are brainwashed to love him. The people are brainwashed into thinking that all their social problems are caused by the West, everyone wants to invade Russia and there are na zis everywhere and only Russia cares about fighting the na zis. All this has caused russians to be some agressive motherland loving patriots, who like to blame other countries for their own misery caused by their own governments agressive foreign policies.

I think Russia should ship their kids to EU schools, they would turn out much nicer people in general. Cause EU doesnt teach hating and diehard patriotism. Cause really, have you heard any EU person state things like "lets bomb Russia"? No never. Nobody really wants to hurt Russia. While russians angry yelling "why havent we invaded anything yet?" are almost everywhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 22, 2014, 08:34:32 am
Quote from: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 07:57:45 am
I never stated that Putin was the head and the people are brainwashed to love him. The people are brainwashed into thinking that all their social problems are caused by the West, everyone wants to invade Russia and there are na zis everywhere and only Russia cares about fighting the na zis. All this has caused russians to be some agressive motherland loving patriots, who like to blame other countries for their own misery caused by their own governments agressive foreign policies.
Lol, where did you get all this crap? You probably spoke personally with each of the 140 million  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 08:47:41 am
From russians themselves and videos where they ask russian opinons in the street. Have spoke to about 20 and those 20 told me everyone else was similar. Well than Vovka. Enlighten me please. What are you russians in Russia really like? How do YOU know what your people are really like? There are 140 million of you. Im pretty sure you can speak only for like people in YOUR area. Its not like the majority of na zis knew they were evil aswell, until they were beaten and everyone stuffed their face in what evil really looks like.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 22, 2014, 08:53:38 am
Quote from: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 08:47:41 am
   From russians themselves and videos where they ask russian opinons in the street. Have spoke to about 20 and those 20 told me everyone else was similar. Well than Vovka. Enlighten me please. What are you russians in Russia really like? How do YOU know what your people are really like? There are 140 million of you. Im pretty sure you can speak only for like people in YOUR area. Its not like the majority of na zis knew they were evil aswell, until they were beaten and everyone stuffed their face in what evil really looks like.
Oh videos, 20 of 20 from 140 millions? i cant beat dat.
I live in Siberia, among the same as I , and i risking their lives, as I write in this forum. Putin once  find as and will expose irradiation  with zombie rays the last free thinking people ((
And we like all the others start to sew bags of sand to the barricades in Ukraine, drink vodka and dance with bears.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 09:03:26 am
Its not like your 200 Facebook(evil West thing) V-kontakte friends are 140 mil people either. Oh common man, stop messing around, I was seriusly curious. :D Enlighten me of your vision of what are russians really like. The general opinion. I am a bit open-minded on this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 22, 2014, 09:18:33 am
we are all different  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 09:22:35 am
Well that was kinda boring. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 22, 2014, 09:25:52 am
truth is always more boring than the video about it in YouTube
deal with it suka bleat  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on December 22, 2014, 09:28:31 am
Quote from: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 07:57:45 am
I never stated that Putin was the head and the people are brainwashed to love him. The people are brainwashed into thinking that all their social problems are caused by the West, everyone wants to invade Russia and there are na zis everywhere and only Russia cares about fighting the na zis. All this has caused russians to be some agressive motherland loving patriots, who like to blame other countries for their own misery caused by their own governments agressive foreign policies.

I think Russia should ship their kids to EU schools, they would turn out much nicer people in general. Cause EU doesnt teach hating and diehard patriotism. Cause really, have you heard any EU person state things like "lets bomb Russia"? No never. Nobody really wants to hurt Russia. While russians angry yelling "why havent we invaded anything yet?" are almost everywhere.
lol this sounds like an essay a 10 years old would write :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 09:36:26 am
Imagine the people I got this info from. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 22, 2014, 01:48:24 pm
Quote from: Tibe on December 22, 2014, 07:57:45 am
I never stated that Putin was the head and the people are brainwashed to love him. The people are brainwashed into thinking that all their social problems are caused by the West, everyone wants to invade Russia and there are na zis everywhere and only Russia cares about fighting the na zis. All this has caused russians to be some agressive motherland loving patriots, who like to blame other countries for their own misery caused by their own governments agressive foreign policies.

I think Russia should ship their kids to EU schools, they would turn out much nicer people in general. Cause EU doesnt teach hating and diehard patriotism. Cause really, have you heard any EU person state things like "lets bomb Russia"? No never. Nobody really wants to hurt Russia. While russians angry yelling "why havent we invaded anything yet?" are almost everywhere.

Let's bomb Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on December 22, 2014, 02:04:58 pm
Quote from: Christo on December 22, 2014, 01:48:24 pm
Let's bomb Russia.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 23, 2014, 10:28:44 am
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2c_1419277733

CIA conspiracy!  :P


obviously they wanted to use these blocks for the next CIA conspiracy!
http://itar-tass.com/en/russia/768631

and reading for dessert
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kp.ru%2Fdaily%2F26323.5%2F3204312%2F&edit-text=
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 24, 2014, 12:03:21 am
http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/26571243.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 24, 2014, 07:53:31 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on December 24, 2014, 12:03:21 am
http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/26571243.html


svoboda.org занят.


info about domain SVOBODA.ORG
Domain Name:SVOBODA.ORG
Domain ID: D4396676-LROR
Creation Date: 1997-08-05T04:00:00Z
Updated Date: 2013-12-11T14:36:06Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2016-08-04T04:00:00Z
Sponsoring Registrar:Network Solutions, LLC (R63-LROR)
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 2
WHOIS Server:
Referral URL:
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Registrant ID:23110463-NSI
Registrant Name:Radio Free Europe
Registrant Organization:Radio Free Europe
Registrant Street: 1201 Connectcuit Ave NW
Registrant Street: Suite 400
Registrant City:Washington
Registrant State/Province:DC
Registrant Postal Code:20036
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.2028287200
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax: +1.2024576995
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email:[email protected]
Admin ID:23163053-NSI
Admin Name:Radio Free Europe
Admin Organization:Radio Free Europe
Admin Street: 1201 Connectcuit Ave NW
Admin City:Washington DC
Admin State/Province:DC
Admin Postal Code:20036
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.9999999999
Admin Phone Ext:
Admin Fax: +1.9999999999
Admin Fax Ext:
Admin Email:[email protected]
Tech ID:23163053-NSI
Tech Name:Radio Free Europe
Tech Organization:Radio Free Europe
Tech Street: 1201 Connectcuit Ave NW
Tech City:Washington DC
Tech State/Province:DC
Tech Postal Code:20036
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.9999999999
Tech Phone Ext:
Tech Fax: +1.9999999999
Tech Fax Ext:
Tech Email:[email protected]
Name Server:A11-64.AKAM.NET
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Name Server:A1-222.AKAM.NET
Name Server:A12-65.AKAM.NET
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Name Server:A8-67.AKAM.NET
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
DNSSEC:Unsigned

 :P :P :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 24, 2014, 11:05:20 am
Quote from: Vovka on December 24, 2014, 07:53:31 am
(click to show/hide)
Are you surprised anti-putler media is shying away from russian registrars? Or are you just pretending? :)

Also - attack the message, not the messenger.  :rolleyes:

ALSO - a shocking news at eleven111!!!1111!!11!!!one1!
http://rt.com/news/217295-mh17-ukraine-military-plane/]

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 24, 2014, 02:13:10 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 24, 2014, 11:05:20 am
Are you surprised anti-putler media is shying away from russian registrars? Or are you just pretending? :)
Also - attack the message, not the messenger.  :rolleyes:

 it's like giving proof link to RT-Russia about the events in Ferguson  :P :P
I also did not call him stupid bastard like love to do some Europeans here)))

oh, and the soldier who gave intervyu to Komsomolskaya Pravda, has successfully passed a polygraph test in the investigative committee of the russian federation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on December 24, 2014, 04:03:47 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 24, 2014, 02:13:10 pm
oh, and the soldier who gave intervyu to Komsomolskaya Pravda, has successfully passed a polygraph test in the investigative committee of the russian federation
Polygraph tests don't work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on December 24, 2014, 04:20:18 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 24, 2014, 02:13:10 pm
it's like giving proof link to RT-Russia about the events in Ferguson  :P :P
I also did not call him stupid bastard like love to do some Europeans here)))

oh, and the soldier who gave intervyu to Komsomolskaya Pravda, has successfully passed a polygraph test in the investigative committee of the russian federation
NO SHIT? And your delusional "president" putler says that your military is "vacationing" in Ukraine with tanks + "Crimea is russias sacred land". Given that the fish starts to rod from the head... well, GOOD FUCKING LUCK with your commisions and having anyone but your granny even remotely accepting that as proof.

"anonymous polygraph tested witness"... your "media" is looking for straws it seems.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 24, 2014, 05:28:27 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on December 24, 2014, 04:20:18 pm
NO SHIT? And your delusional "president" putler says that your military is "vacationing" in Ukraine with tanks + "Crimea is russias sacred land". Given that the fish starts to rod from the head... well, GOOD FUCKING LUCK with your commisions and having anyone but your granny even remotely accepting that as proof.
"anonymous polygraph tested witness"... your "media" is looking for straws it seems.
Сalm down  you  European piece of shit, attack the message, not the messenger.  xnxnxnxnxn
Quote from: Xant on December 24, 2014, 04:03:47 pm
Polygraph tests don't work.
I do not claim that this is true, just waiting for new lulz  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on December 24, 2014, 07:57:22 pm
Quote from: Vovka on December 24, 2014, 05:28:27 pm
I do not claim that this is true, just waiting for new lulz  :P
Of course it is not true, because everybody know that it was Putin with BUK.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on December 30, 2014, 03:53:36 pm

ayyyy lmao wot dis? Trouble in paradise?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 30, 2014, 05:16:18 pm
What, a splinter group inside the DNR?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on December 30, 2014, 05:21:31 pm
Cossacks angry about state of affairs, ask Putin to stop robbing Novorossia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 30, 2014, 05:23:29 pm
topkek m8
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on December 31, 2014, 01:57:59 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on December 30, 2014, 05:21:31 pm
Cossacks angry about state of affairs, ask Putin to stop robbing Novorossia.
Excellent translation skills u have here
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on December 31, 2014, 02:25:29 pm
That's what he says, first two sentences. Addressed to Vladimir Ilyich Putin, his hirelings/people/whatever are robbing the place every day, he has it all documented for proof.

Or is there some sort of alternate translation? "Dear Vladimir Ilyich Putin, many robbings, please send more tanks"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on December 31, 2014, 03:39:03 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on December 31, 2014, 02:25:29 pm
That's what he says, first two sentences. Addressed to Vladimir Ilyich Putin, his hirelings/people/whatever are robbing the place every day, he has it all documented for proof.

Or is there some sort of alternate translation? "Dear Vladimir Ilyich Putin, many robbings, please send more tanks"?

Slav language like statistics, interpret what you want ))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on December 31, 2014, 03:51:05 pm
now 140% truer than befor ))) xnx
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on December 31, 2014, 04:01:16 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on December 31, 2014, 02:25:29 pm
That's what he says, first two sentences. Addressed to Vladimir Ilyich Putin, his hirelings/people/whatever are robbing the place every day, he has it all documented for proof.

Or is there some sort of alternate translation? "Dear Vladimir Ilyich Putin, many robbings, please send more tanks"?
Who is Vladimir Ilyich Putin?
Yes, learn russian, you missunderstood what he said
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on December 31, 2014, 04:16:12 pm
Not Vladimir Ilyich Putin, sorry, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, mistyped.

So, what else did he say then?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on December 31, 2014, 04:27:41 pm
In first sentences he says that people of Plotnitskiy robbed a coal. and this he wants mr Putin and all the world to know. And this not DNR it is LNR
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on December 31, 2014, 05:36:07 pm
Like the rest of the world gives a damn.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 03, 2015, 12:37:30 am
I'll just leave these as some interesting reading material:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/03/where-do-borders-need-to-be-redrawn/why-china-will-reclaim-siberia

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/11/russian-history-is-on-our-side-putin-will-surely-screw-himself.html (at least funny... a bit...  :rolleyes: )
Quote
The first ruler of Old Russia was the Viking Prince Ryurik. Imagine being so disorganized that you need marauding Vikings to found your nation—them with their battle axes, crazed pillaging, riotous Meade Hall feasts, and horns on their helmets. (Actually, Vikings didn’t wear horns on their helmets—but they would have if they’d thought of it, just like they would have worn meade helmets if they’d thought of it.) Some government it must have been.

Viking Prince Ryurik: “Yah, let’s build Novgorod!”

Viking Chieftain Sven: “Yah, so we can burn it down and loot!”

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/03/numbers-vladimir-putin-doesnt-want-you-to-see

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/136511/nicholas-eberstadt/the-dying-bear
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: djavo on January 03, 2015, 03:21:57 am
Get ready for some gorilla warfare.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21637348-unlikely-event-russian-attack-polish-partisans-may-be-waiting-home-army-back?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/homearmyisback (http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21637348-unlikely-event-russian-attack-polish-partisans-may-be-waiting-home-army-back?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/homearmyisback)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 03, 2015, 08:59:53 am
Seems Kuujis butthurted for all his life, and he will post here through his life, doesn't matter that this is offtopic
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 03, 2015, 09:08:40 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 03, 2015, 08:59:53 am
Seems Kuujis butthurted for all his life, and he will post here through his life, doesn't matter that this is offtopic
THANK YOU for being butthurt enough to not leave me alone!  :oops:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 03, 2015, 10:19:05 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 03, 2015, 09:08:40 am
THANK YOU for being butthurt enough to not leave me alone!  :oops:
Ofcourse, my butthurted friend. Waiting for new offtopic fakes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 03, 2015, 11:10:24 am
Mr.Sensitive
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 03, 2015, 11:46:58 am
Jesus touch - stand up and go
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 03, 2015, 09:05:38 pm
i have nothing to contribute, so have a katy perry song!


Do you ever feel like a plastic bag
Drifting through the wind, wanting to start again?
Do you ever feel, feel so paper thin
Like a house of cards, one blow from caving in?

Do you ever feel already buried deep six feet under?
Screams but no one seems to hear a thing
Do you know that there's still a chance for you
'Cause there's a spark in you?

You just gotta ignite the light and let it shine
Just own the night like the 4th of July

'Cause, baby, you're a firework
Come on, show 'em what you're worth
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
As you shoot across the sky-y-y

Baby, you're a firework
Come on, let your colours burst
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
You're gonna leave 'em all in awe, awe, awe

You don't have to feel like a wasted space
You're original, cannot be replaced
If you only knew what the future holds
After a hurricane comes a rainbow

Maybe a reason why all the doors are closed
So you could open one that leads you to the perfect road
Like a lightning bolt, your heart will glow
And when it's time you'll know

You just gotta ignite the light and let it shine
Just own the night like the 4th of July

'Cause, baby, you're a firework
Come on, show 'em what you're worth
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
As you shoot across the sky-y-y

Baby, you're a firework
Come on, let your colours burst
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
You're gonna leave 'em all in awe, awe, awe

Boom, boom, boom
Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon
It's always been inside of you, you, you
And now it's time to let it through-ough-ough

'Cause, baby, you're a firework
Come on, show 'em what you're worth
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
As you shoot across the sky-y-y

Baby, you're a firework
Come on, let your colours burst
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
You're gonna leave 'em all in awe, awe, awe

Boom, boom, boom
Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon
Boom, boom, boom
Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Talanarsis on January 03, 2015, 09:24:18 pm
Quote from: Clockworkkiller on January 03, 2015, 09:05:38 pm
i have nothing to contribute, so have a katy perry song!


Do you ever feel like a plastic bag
Drifting through the wind, wanting to start again?
Do you ever feel, feel so paper thin
Like a house of cards, one blow from caving in?

Do you ever feel already buried deep six feet under?
Screams but no one seems to hear a thing
Do you know that there's still a chance for you
'Cause there's a spark in you?

You just gotta ignite the light and let it shine
Just own the night like the 4th of July

'Cause, baby, you're a firework
Come on, show 'em what you're worth
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
As you shoot across the sky-y-y

Baby, you're a firework
Come on, let your colours burst
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
You're gonna leave 'em all in awe, awe, awe

You don't have to feel like a wasted space
You're original, cannot be replaced
If you only knew what the future holds
After a hurricane comes a rainbow

Maybe a reason why all the doors are closed
So you could open one that leads you to the perfect road
Like a lightning bolt, your heart will glow
And when it's time you'll know

You just gotta ignite the light and let it shine
Just own the night like the 4th of July

'Cause, baby, you're a firework
Come on, show 'em what you're worth
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
As you shoot across the sky-y-y

Baby, you're a firework
Come on, let your colours burst
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
You're gonna leave 'em all in awe, awe, awe

Boom, boom, boom
Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon
It's always been inside of you, you, you
And now it's time to let it through-ough-ough

'Cause, baby, you're a firework
Come on, show 'em what you're worth
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
As you shoot across the sky-y-y

Baby, you're a firework
Come on, let your colours burst
Make 'em go, "Aah, aah, aah"
You're gonna leave 'em all in awe, awe, awe

Boom, boom, boom
Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon
Boom, boom, boom
Even brighter than the moon, moon, moon

Good job Clockwork, you made Kim Jong Un cry!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Krex on January 04, 2015, 01:18:55 am
Can someone tell me why this thread has so many pages?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 04, 2015, 10:51:53 am
Quote from: Krex on January 04, 2015, 01:18:55 am
Can someone tell me why this thread has so many pages?
Because here you can blame russians
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 04, 2015, 11:52:46 am
Quote from: Krex on January 04, 2015, 01:18:55 am
Can someone tell me why this thread has so many pages?
Lots of russians and lots of europeans in this thread. 2 types of worldviews. A lot of bad blood from the past history is still present. A lot of euros still mad at Soviet crimes, while the ruskies are mad that they arent Soviet and more relevant anymore. :D To pro-West countries that border Russia, existence is equally scary as being an oilrich muslim Middle-Eastern country thats anti-US. So sparks are bound to happen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 04, 2015, 12:19:49 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 04, 2015, 11:52:46 am
the ruskies are mad that they arent Soviet and more relevant anymore.
Typical anti-russian propoganda :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 04, 2015, 12:34:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 04, 2015, 10:51:53 am
Because here you can blame russians
Yes, it's so sad that you get blamed after doing nothing but invading a country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 04, 2015, 02:04:03 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 04, 2015, 12:19:49 pm
Typical anti-russian propoganda :D
What would your opinion be, if Russia invaded Moldova? Again "well it was technically our land, we just took it back and they were fascists"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 04, 2015, 02:34:01 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on January 04, 2015, 02:56:57 pm
There is still one bohemian village left.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 04, 2015, 03:18:02 pm
Quote from: Mala on January 04, 2015, 02:56:57 pm
There is still one bohemian village left.
referendum isn't done yet
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 04:15:29 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 04, 2015, 02:34:01 pm

All i see is Byzantine Empire and tons of uncivilized countries.


Quote from: DonNicko on January 04, 2015, 12:19:49 pm
Typical anti-russian propoganda :D

It's da truth. If most Russians had the choice to stay Russia or become Soviet Union again (with some changes being made to become more upgraded to fit the 21th century) they would become Soviet Union again.

Anyhow Russia is no longer stronk. China will be new ruler of Asia. Germany ruler of Europe. Israel and Kurdistan new rulers of Middle East and USA still ruler of America. And Africa will still be ruler-less.

Also on topic of Africa.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 05, 2015, 05:30:46 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 04:15:29 pm
Also on topic of Africa.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 05:52:39 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 04:15:29 pm
It's da truth. If most Russians had the choice to stay Russia or become Soviet Union again (with some changes being made to become more upgraded to fit the 21th century) they would become Soviet Union again.
One more proof of anti-russian propoganda  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 05:59:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 05:52:39 pm
One more proof of anti-russian propoganda  :D

USA > China > Nigeria > Russia.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 06:05:14 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 05:59:52 pm
USA > China > Nigeria > Russia.
Logic?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 05, 2015, 06:10:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 06:05:14 pm
Logic?

Logic or truth doesn't exist, only point of view ))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 05, 2015, 06:18:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 06:05:14 pm
Logic?
Military capacity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 06:48:05 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 05, 2015, 06:18:17 pm
Military capacity.
the nuclear?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 05, 2015, 06:52:08 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 06:48:05 pm
the nuclear?

the unclear
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 07:15:21 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 06:05:14 pm
Logic?

USA = Technological superiority in all 3 areas (Air, Sea and Ground) as well as well experienced by now when it comes to invasions from sea.

China = Economy bout to rape whole world soon, biggest army in terms of manpower (nukes don't matter unless you think Putin would nuke his own country to stop the Chinese unstoppable horde and same with India. Nobody nearby can stop China only USA but that's just because China sucks in comparison to Russia and USA on the naval side)

Nigeria = Got millions of rich Nigerian princess who offer free money to westerners if you just cooperate with them. It's a win win.



Only unaware, unintelligent people would believe nukes would come into play. Only North Korea or ISIS would ever use nukes.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 05, 2015, 08:05:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 05, 2015, 06:48:05 pm
the nuclear?
No, who cares about nuclear, nobody's going to use nuclear weapons for anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on January 05, 2015, 08:41:18 pm
Lol, last time I checked on this tread(& whole RUvsUA situation) it was 300 pages. I created a monster   :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 08:54:13 pm
Why dont you lock it? Im curious to see what will happen then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Segd on January 05, 2015, 09:09:42 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 08:54:13 pm
Why dont you lock it? Im curious to see what will happen then.
Probably this will end the conflict. Russia & Ukraine will be BFF again, but:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 10:04:37 pm
Close this thread Segd
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 05, 2015, 10:16:58 pm
You fools, what happened when Guantanamo Bay was closed? That's right, the terr'ists within became a problem for the world-at-large. Similarly, if you close this thread, Tovi would no longer be contained here, and you'd be inflicting him on the rest of the cRPG forums.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2015, 11:10:07 pm
Tove will instead go to Fapocalypse thread and post sexy (read: ugly) conspiracy theorists girls pictures and Anti-American Soviet girls pics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 11:16:00 pm
Why are Soviet milfs so ugly, yet Soviet younger women so damn hot?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 05, 2015, 11:40:14 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 11:16:00 pm
Why are Soviet milfs so ugly, yet Soviet younger women so damn hot?

vodka happens
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 05, 2015, 11:51:50 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 11:16:00 pm
Why are Soviet milfs so ugly, yet Soviet younger women so damn hot?

rough life (
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on January 05, 2015, 11:58:33 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 11:16:00 pm
Why are Soviet milfs so ugly, yet Soviet younger women so damn hot?
My ex-gf was a fitness instructor and bachelor in nutrition and I once asked her why so many immigrant women in Denmark, usually Arabs and Turks, were usually quite beautiful at a young age while usually very spent at old age, and she ventured the guess that it was simply due to the lack of sustained exercise and focus on bodily health culture that has been fashionable among Western women for longer. Maybe it's the same with the current older generation of Slavic women, though I think it is more pronounced among many Muslim women, who are still stay-at-home moms (usually with a greater number of children).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 06, 2015, 12:19:45 am
Quote from: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 11:16:00 pm
Why are Soviet milfs so ugly, yet Soviet younger women so damn hot?

MILF = Mother I'd Like to Fuck
You like to fuck ugly women?

Different culture and lifestyles. But that is changing because population in most developed countries is getting older and their needs at different stages in life are changing.

In the past, strong moral which was only acceptable thing by society forced people to get married young, breed kids, their kids did the same and they ended up as grandpas and grandmas at late 40ies. Grandma had a certain role in family, just like mother. Sexuality was repressed, there was no need for them to be hot anymore, nor they could achieve it.

Today, thanks to miracles of modern medicine and popularity of fitness and lack of multiple children to take care of, modern mother and even grandmas spend time trying to stay fit and seem beautiful through invasive cosmetic procedures.

Sheeple or majority of population were always following a trend. That trend used to be function over form. These days, it is mostly form over function.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 06, 2015, 03:43:57 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on January 06, 2015, 11:08:23 am
Quote from: Tibe on January 05, 2015, 11:16:00 pm
Why are Soviet milfs so ugly, yet Soviet younger women so damn hot?
better than vice versa

My vk friendlist looks better than whole Fapocalypse thread   :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 06, 2015, 11:24:42 am
So does my fb list tbh. Thats why I dont get off on fapocalpyse. Thats all looks pretty standard to me.

Somehow slavic(ish) women are significantly hotter than central-Europes women. We always joke how guys in UK look jacked and pretty damn good and all the women there look buttugly as hell. Ive noticed that some uglier women I know have moved to different countries to find better men for themselves, cause they wont find em here. All the best guys are taken by fucking supermodels. :D Even a skinny ugly nerddude with the shittiest personality ever, but with some degree of courage can easly score a 7/10 here. Have seen it happen countless times.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 06, 2015, 11:31:24 am
Latest pics i posted in Fapocalypse looks way better than any random trashy Russian or random off the street European chick out there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 06, 2015, 11:38:43 am
East Europe sure has nice women... but they all look so similar to each other. That's kinda boring tbh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on January 06, 2015, 11:47:00 am
Younger slav women look great, but after a certain age there spawns an abomination in the place of said woman.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on January 06, 2015, 12:41:03 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 06, 2015, 11:31:24 am
Latest pics i posted in Fapocalypse looks way better than any random trashy Russian or random off the street European chick out there.
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 04, 2015, 12:20:47 am
Berenger to the rescue to un-gay this thread!

(click to show/hide)
poor guy  :)
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 06, 2015, 03:33:55 pm
Quote from: Yarl on January 06, 2015, 12:41:03 pm
poor guy  :)
(click to show/hide)

I see fat old women and young girls dressed in WW2 soviet uniforms (i could see how certain people could have their hammer and sickle get hard from that). Either way those young girls are 7-8/10 at best and they got like 10 years before they turn into monsters.


< This for example is something no Russian young girl could compete with. Look at the body. Look at the physique. Look at the hair. The eyes. Nope can't beat that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 06, 2015, 03:53:07 pm
Now all we need is a penis measurement championship when looking at "Meanwhile in Ukraine" Fapoclypse thread...

</facepalm>

ON TOPIC (tvajumat)!
http://observer.com/2015/01/bands-of-putin-youths-fight-his-enemies-ridicule-opposition-leaders-as-condoms/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 06, 2015, 04:13:00 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 06, 2015, 03:53:07 pm
Now all we need is a penis measurement championship when looking at "Meanwhile in Ukraine" Fapoclypse thread...

</facepalm>

ON TOPIC (tvajumat)!
http://observer.com/2015/01/bands-of-putin-youths-fight-his-enemies-ridicule-opposition-leaders-as-condoms/

Atleast it's better than to argue whether Russia/China/North Korea is better than USA and NATO countries or the other way like brainwashed drones.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 06, 2015, 04:30:38 pm
Quote from: Vibe on January 06, 2015, 11:47:00 am
Younger slav women look great, but after a certain age there spawns an abomination in the place of said woman.

There are two kind of heterosexual men. Those who are satisfied with young and hot girl and those who want that girl to be beautiful as well. Beautiful women age really well if they aren't abused. Most young girls are hot, won't go into details why because that would make me sound like pedo. Those young and hot but not classically beautiful have flaws which over time get worse and they end up like old ugly crones. Most men know this, but just like women they aren't all pretty boys and can't get the prettiest girl in town unless they are filthy rich. You take what life gives you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 06, 2015, 05:19:18 pm
I think when c-rpg will completely die, this topic will be alive  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 06, 2015, 05:28:20 pm
Berenger into pigfaced women confirmed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 06, 2015, 06:32:10 pm
Quote from: Kafein on January 06, 2015, 05:28:20 pm
Berenger into pigfaced women confirmed

< Pigfaced women? Uwotm8. Melanie Iglesias is insanely beautiful

WAY better than this crap


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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on January 06, 2015, 06:38:23 pm
No one here is posting anorexiacs and you're the only one posting pics of fake lipped creatures. Basically, you're only comparing to your own fetishes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 06, 2015, 06:55:57 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on January 06, 2015, 06:38:23 pm
No one here is posting anorexiacs and you're the only one posting pics of fake lipped creatures. Basically, you're only comparing to your own fetishes.

You still suck
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 11, 2015, 05:18:50 pm
Arseniy Yatsenyuk on the first channel of Gemany: "The USSR attacked Ukraine and Germany" :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on January 11, 2015, 09:46:09 pm
I like the respose of "Der Spiegel" (the yellow press of the intellectuals). :P
http://www.spiegel.de/spam/satire-spiegel-online-jazenjuk-sowjetischer-einmarsch-a-1011915.html

"We all can  remember very well the soviet invasion of the Ukraine and Germany." Yatsenyuk to moderator Pinar Atalay.

And in fact, in 1942 Soviet troops were advancing relentlessly westward. Back then they did not hesitate to follow the armies of the democratically elected Chancellor A. Hütler through Ukrainian territory. The slightly longer route south of the Black Sea, bypassing Ukraine, was obviously too cumbersome or them.

Finally, the Soviets invaded and violated the german eastern borders and invaded german territory. as we remind us all very well thanks to  Mr. Yatsenyuk. If this also applies to miss Atalay, we do not know. Anyway, the little excursion into the history of russian aggression raised no questions with her.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 11, 2015, 09:55:34 pm
and then USSR nuked Japan to avoid defeat
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 11, 2015, 11:27:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 11, 2015, 09:55:34 pm
and then USSR nuked Japan to avoid defeat

Had USSR really had nukes back then instead of USA then they would've thrown like 100 Tsar Bombas everywhere on the Japanese Main Island
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 12, 2015, 12:25:44 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 11, 2015, 11:27:53 pm
Tsar Bombas
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 12, 2015, 12:49:48 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 11, 2015, 09:55:34 pm
and then USSR nuked Japan to avoid defeat

you just jelly because u had to advance through manchuria ))))

rus stronk navy, no ship best ship, imposible destroy ))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 12, 2015, 04:10:03 am
Quote from: Christo on January 12, 2015, 12:49:48 am
you just jelly because u had to advance through manchuria ))))

rus stronk navy, no ship best ship, imposible destroy ))

pfffff in soviet union army u just drink vodka and cross swim  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 12, 2015, 04:54:12 am
The US won the Cold War by driving the Soviet Union into bankruptcy. By making them spend 74 percent of every ruble on defense until they crumbled from within. And what's Russia doing now? What are the economic projections? Looks like it's going to be 2-0 for the US, and twice in the same way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 12, 2015, 05:50:39 am
Quote from: Xant on January 12, 2015, 04:54:12 am
The US won the Cold War by driving the Soviet Union into bankruptcy. By making them spend 74 percent of every ruble on defense until they crumbled from within. And what's Russia doing now? What are the economic projections? Looks like it's going to be 2-0 for the US, and twice in the same way.
I think will have to take another piece of land from silly Finland  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 12, 2015, 09:44:30 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 12, 2015, 05:50:39 am
I think will have to take another piece of land from silly Finland  :P

This time we need helmet cam's on those pesky Finnish snipers to have live feed of the dying ruskies.

P.S. Did you cash out your savings already?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 12, 2015, 09:58:54 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 12, 2015, 09:44:30 am
This time we need helmet cam's on those pesky Finnish snipers to have live feed of the dying ruskies.

P.S. Did you cash out your savings already?  :rolleyes:
yep, and bought a an excellent bank of sprats, my family was fed for a week  :P
but now we again eat only vodka
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 12, 2015, 12:26:09 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 12, 2015, 05:50:39 am
I think will have to take another piece of land from silly Finland  :P

Sweden thinks Russia is about to invade any second now starting with Gotland.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 12, 2015, 02:39:21 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 12, 2015, 12:26:09 pm
Sweden thinks Russia is about to invade any second now starting with Gotland.
Sweden weak their entire fleet was looking for  100t Soviet submarine but have not found her in the lake  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 12, 2015, 03:47:21 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 12, 2015, 02:39:21 pm
Sweden weak their entire fleet was looking for  100t Soviet submarine but have not found her in the lake  :P

Sweden also doesn't know that Stalin is still alive and Putin is just a puppet for Stalin and great leader Stalin will reform the Soviet Union
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 12, 2015, 03:59:49 pm
Ukraine and Russia are muslim free zone. Who's going to collapse first now, ha?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on January 12, 2015, 05:38:18 pm
No country in Europe has as many muslims as Russia 16.5 million. But you are probably trolling.

https://www.google.pl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1GIGM_enPL524PL524&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=number+of+muslims+in+russia&spell=1 (https://www.google.pl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1GIGM_enPL524PL524&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=number+of+muslims+in+russia&spell=1)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 12, 2015, 05:59:11 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 12, 2015, 03:59:49 pm
Ukraine and Russia are muslim free zone. Who's going to collapse first now, ha?

Russia makes France look Muslim free.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 12, 2015, 06:53:46 pm
Percentage wise, not so much. Also, muslims in Russia don't have the same "rights" as they do in progressive Europea. Just looke at the world map, every place where muslims had/have power in now a total shithole (UAE is a shithole as well, rich as fuck but still shitty place to live).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 12, 2015, 07:02:48 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 12, 2015, 06:53:46 pm
Percentage wise, not so much. Also, muslims in Russia don't have the same "rights" as they do in progressive Europea. Just looke at the world map, every place where muslims had/have power in now a total shithole (UAE is a shithole as well, rich as fuck but still shitty place to live).

Islam is the second largest religion in Russia, surely that has something to do with it being a shithole
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 12, 2015, 07:30:12 pm
It may have something to do with Chechnya being a shithole. Rest of it is a result of corruption. Being corrupt was a pretty obvious and cool thing back in the USSR, if you were poor and someone higher up wasnt your drinkingbuddy there was no possible way to get anything. Its still in their blood. And it kills the countries efficency hard. I like to occasionally listen to older people who talk about the USSR rule. Town halls filled with cigarsmoke, pretty much the whole cities administration being utterly shitfaced drunk in the middle of the day, some fat bastards just sleeping in their offices etc etc. And that kinda was in every town, even deep in the Motherland.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 12, 2015, 08:17:40 pm
Quote from: Thomek on January 12, 2015, 05:38:18 pm
No country in Europe has as many muslims as Russia 16.5 million. But you are probably trolling.
I live in "muslim" respublic Tatarstan, about 25% of tatars are christians. And if you will try to say something religious on the street, many chances that you will be arrested. All mosques are under strict controll. Many muslim schools were closed. So here you cant find any free muslim. If you have just little part of radical thinkings, you will be under control
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 12, 2015, 09:53:55 pm
Moving to Russia, DonNicko can I still come live at your place?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 12, 2015, 10:12:44 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 12, 2015, 09:53:55 pm
Moving to Russia, DonNicko can I still come live at your place?
Of course, if you will go to my city)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 12, 2015, 10:24:22 pm
Quote
Many draftees prefer a prison term to being conscripted into the army and deployed to the military conflict zone with Novorossiya "To avoid the upcoming mobilization, many Poltava men are preparing for prison. The problem is that the Poltava Pretrial Detention Center cannot hold them all," a Poltava resident, who refused to disclose her name, told our online publication. A similar situation is taking place in Dniprodzerzhynsk, where nationalists recently beat two refugees for sympathizing with the Donetsk People’s Republic. However, not every "patriot" is ready to go to war, and many are hiding wherever they can ahead of the new wave of mobilization, our sources report. The situation in the Odesa, Kherson and Mykolaiv regions is even more dismal for the Ukrainian army. The results of the previous mobilizations were the worst there. Captive Ukrainian soldiers, who are being exchanged for self-defense fighters and political prisoners held by Kiev, are not willing to fight either. Those serving in the Ukrainian Armed Forces claim they are not going to return to war. Military commanders were not honest with them, and the soldiers want to make this clear to their fellow servicemen, vesti.ru report.
Читать далее: http://en.ukraina.ru/news/20150109/1011738396.html

http://en.ukraina.ru/news/20150109/1011738396.html


A thousand policemen Dnipropetrovsk fired for refusing to go to the "ATO"  :  http://adam1baum.blogspot.no/2015/01/a-thousand-policemen-dnipropetrovsk.html?spref=tw
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 12, 2015, 10:37:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 12, 2015, 10:24:22 pm
http://en.ukraina.ru/news/20150109/1011738396.html


A thousand policemen Dnipropetrovsk fired for refusing to go to the "ATO"  :  http://adam1baum.blogspot.no/2015/01/a-thousand-policemen-dnipropetrovsk.html?spref=tw

Don't worry Tovi! "Novorussians" captured another top-secret underground Ukrainian base with latest and greatest russian weaponry and winter troops to boot! See proofs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo7qLUFo9I0 ! They will replace the corrupt and banderov-like Ukrainian police if given the chance and EAGERLY! Tru story!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 12, 2015, 11:34:59 pm
Quote from: Thomek on January 12, 2015, 05:38:18 pm
No country in Europe has as many muslims as Russia 16.5 million. But you are probably trolling.

https://www.google.pl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1GIGM_enPL524PL524&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=number+of+muslims+in+russia&spell=1 (https://www.google.pl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1GIGM_enPL524PL524&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=number+of+muslims+in+russia&spell=1)

Do you seriously think that means what you think it means? In many cases the Muslims living in Russia are descendants of people already living there before it even became Russia. How many Islamic religious symbols do you see when taking a metro trip in Moscow?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 13, 2015, 12:56:56 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 12, 2015, 10:37:04 pm
Don't worry Tovi! "Novorussians" captured another top-secret underground Ukrainian base with latest and greatest russian weaponry and winter troops to boot! See proofs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo7qLUFo9I0 ! They will replace the corrupt and banderov-like Ukrainian police if given the chance and EAGERLY! Tru story!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on January 13, 2015, 07:22:42 am
ha, at 1:35 they kill innocent civilists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 13, 2015, 08:36:00 am
Quote from: Mala on January 13, 2015, 07:22:42 am
ha, at 1:35 they kill innocent civilists.
for them it is an honor to die and make their leader happy  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 09:03:37 am
 tomorrow Poroshenko would sign a decree about new wave of mobilization in Ukraine  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 14, 2015, 09:07:25 am
Nothing about the bus that got shelled by.. well both sides according to their own reports?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 10:38:40 am
Quote from: Christo on January 14, 2015, 09:07:25 am
Nothing about the bus that got shelled by.. well both sides according to their own reports?  :lol:
yeah  :lol: 12 dead  :lol: including a 14 year old girl  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 14, 2015, 10:45:12 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 10:38:40 am
yeah  :lol: 12 dead  :lol: including a 14 year old girl  :lol:

So, did the army shell its own checkpoint?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 11:18:31 am
Quote from: Christo on January 14, 2015, 10:45:12 am
So, did the army shell its own checkpoint?
http://kladun.livejournal.com/500526.html

on russian sadly,

In short - Ukrainian military argue that it launched the entire cassette (40) missiles from GRAD and one hit the bus. on the photo and video we can not see the result of this shelling  (40 rocket plowed a few hundred square meters).
Also on the video and photo shows signs "mined", on freeze video u can see a Military Personnel with ammynition pack for mines "MON 100"
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 so that the author suggests that during the inspection of the bus at the checkpoint, tripped a mine.

On the map, the scene is marked with a red circle
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 14, 2015, 11:26:59 am
Wait, so the DNR dude at the checkpoint had a mine in his hands and walked past some bus with people in it and suddenly the mine blew up? :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 11:33:11 am
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2015, 11:26:59 am
Wait, so the DNR dude at the checkpoint had a mine in his hands and walked past some bus with people in it and suddenly the mine blew up? :shock:
No, roadside mined. The bus stopped at the side of the road to pass inspection at the Ukrainian checkpoint. The driver did not notice the "MINED " and went to pee in the bushes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 14, 2015, 11:40:28 am
Makes sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 12:05:31 pm
Well nobody knows who did this with the bus, but thereare people who are still alive, there is OSCE, so I think they will interview people from the bus what happened, but of course Kiev makes some statement without any investigation.
Also new anti-russian propoganda from the 1 channel of Germany tadam: http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/mh-siebzehn-103.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 14, 2015, 01:27:56 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 12:05:31 pm
Also new anti-russian propoganda from the 1 channel of Germany tadam: http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/mh-siebzehn-103.html

nothing new in that report, they only re-checked the bellingcat research.

What exactly is propaganda in your opinion? even russia officially discussed that video and claimed it was shot elsewhere by claiming there was advertising for a certain car-seller on the poster in the background. But people from Luhansk have located that specific poster and confirmed it is in Luhansk.

http://evilmilker.livejournal.com/4379.html?thread=66587#t66587
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 01:49:02 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 14, 2015, 01:27:56 pm
nothing new in that report, they only re-checked the bellingcat research.

What exactly is propaganda in your opinion? even russia officially discussed that video and claimed it was shot elsewhere by claiming there was advertising for a certain car-seller on the poster in the background. But people from Luhansk have located that specific poster and confirmed it is in Luhansk.

http://evilmilker.livejournal.com/4379.html?thread=66587#t66587
"interview" the former Ukrainian soldiers, who served on the "312" (oh 312 not 301)  BUK, where he explains the transcript "312" and why he carried on the truck XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 02:26:24 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 14, 2015, 01:27:56 pm
nothing new in that report, they only re-checked the bellingcat research.

What exactly is propaganda in your opinion? even russia officially discussed that video and claimed it was shot elsewhere by claiming there was advertising for a certain car-seller on the poster in the background. But people from Luhansk have located that specific poster and confirmed it is in Luhansk.

http://evilmilker.livejournal.com/4379.html?thread=66587#t66587
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of a population toward some cause or position. So 1st channel makes population to think that boeing was shot by Russia. What can I say more. That first claim about this video is that this BUK was in the Donetsk moving to Russia. And yes watch the video with the men from that BUK  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 14, 2015, 02:42:22 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 02:26:24 pm
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of a population toward some cause or position. So 1st channel makes population to think that boeing was shot by Russia. What can I say more. That first claim about this video is that this BUK was in the Donetsk moving to Russia. And yes watch the video with the men from that BUK  :D

Whenever you criticize atleast 1 thing about Russia and their politics your facts becomes legit and can be taken seriously. Till then you're a biased, pro-kremlin propaganda troll
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 14, 2015, 04:15:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 02:26:24 pm
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of a population toward some cause or position. So 1st channel makes population to think that boeing was shot by Russia. What can I say more. That first claim about this video is that this BUK was in the Donetsk moving to Russia. And yes watch the video with the men from that BUK  :D
Didn't realize you speak German so well that you actually understand what he's saying. If not, better stop talking out of your arse cuz it makes you look like one in return.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 06:52:34 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 14, 2015, 02:42:22 pm
Whenever you criticize atleast 1 thing about Russia and their politics your facts becomes legit and can be taken seriously. Till then you're a biased, pro-kremlin propaganda troll
When I did propoganda?
Quote from: Molly on January 14, 2015, 04:15:35 pm
Didn't realize you speak German so well that you actually understand what he's saying. If not, better stop talking out of your arse cuz it makes you look like one in return.
Did I said something wrong, I read prodessional translation, and gave the video. Where I did a mistake?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 14, 2015, 07:23:09 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 01:49:02 pm
"interview" the former Ukrainian soldiers, who served on the "312" (oh 312 not 301)  BUK, where he explains the transcript "312" and why he carried on the truck XD
Vovka, you are confused a bit. Let me get you back to the slow speed you should be using when thinking. Currently there is a secret witness in russia, who claims there was a Ukrainian ground attack plane, which left airport with 2 AA missiles and returned with none. This "the buk was ukrainian" did not stick to the wall of bullshit that russian media is. Maybe it was not thrown hard enough, maybe there is only so much place for bullshit even there or JUST MAYBE feeding two different bullshits may cause inadvertent effect of people actually asking questions (god forbid!).

Also - try arguing with these guys and their findings, instead of "there is one secret witness" or  "there was a soldier who was interviewed and told something  about something..."
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/01/05/is-this-ukrainian-buk-a-clue-in-the-mh17-investigation-or-a-red-herring/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 14, 2015, 07:56:32 pm

  looks like bus driver not pissed in bushes but tried hide here


http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.ru/2015/01/volnovakha.html?spref=fb

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 09:03:53 pm
Crimea - secession or annexation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 14, 2015, 10:30:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 09:03:53 pm
Crimea - secession or annexation?
Are you daft?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on January 14, 2015, 10:41:58 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 09:03:53 pm
Crimea - secession or annexation?
does it matter anymore?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 06:58:23 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 14, 2015, 10:30:29 pm
Are you daft?
Ask this the professor Karl-Albrecht Schachtschneider. He said that this was secession. And I asked the question. Do you know the difference between secession and annexation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 15, 2015, 08:25:07 am
stupid question nicko, and you know the answer. You think it's secession because you listen to EU-hating far right sympathizer of NPD FPÖ and AfD Schachtschneider while 90% of academic historians, juridical, social and political scientists know it was an annexation by it's definition.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on January 15, 2015, 09:38:45 am
Well they did tehnically secede by referendum, and the short timeframe of joining the russian federation one could argue it was annexation. Was it legal by Ukranian constitutional law and international law? Not really, there isnt a right to secede, but self determination happens anyway. You could argue that the Croatian independence referndum was also illegal but Croatia is an EU member today. Neither side is 100% right, its all a matter of perspective. My personal opinion is that its Ukranian but thats only because i dislike the Russian goverment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 15, 2015, 10:31:13 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 14, 2015, 09:03:53 pm
Crimea - secession or annexation?
Its kinda stupid to hear people say "it was technically ours". Half of Europe was under the USSR. There is a lot of russians, its not very hard for them to migrate to another country in masses, be the majority in some province, have some stupid "voting", be annexed and than use the words "it has always been ours". Ofcourse the people of Crimea chose to join Russia, cause majority of the people there were infact russians, but the land was still Ukraines and considering this horrible tasteless and factually incorrect propaganda:
(click to show/hide)
its really no suprise the people got scared. Borders exsist, despite Russias understanding that the only borders that matter are China, USAs and theirs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on January 15, 2015, 10:31:23 am
Quote from: Umbra on January 15, 2015, 09:38:45 am
You could argue that the Croatian independence referndum was also illegal but Croatia is an EU member today.

No, you can't. Croatia had every right to leave Yugoslavia, in accordance with Yugoslav Constitution from 1974. Every Yugoslav Republic had the same right: Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Serbia and Monteblack in spanish.

Kosovo's secession from Serbia was illegal, because Yugoslav Constitution never allowed for such possibility for Kosovo which was one of the provinces of Serbia. And this is exactly the argument the Russian's are using (and rightly so) - if EU and USA allowed something for Kosovo and set such precedent, why would it be impossible for Crimea? Most of EU countries (except for few dealing with secessionist movements themselves - like Spain for example) recognized Kosovo's independence, and USA did it in the first place. Shit, NATO led by US even made it possible in the first place by bombing Serbia & MNE into submission and making Serbia withdraw all the troops from Kosovo.

Also, one could argue that Crimea's referendum formally took place, no matter how ridiculous it was, while such referendum never took place in Kosovo. Not to say that huge majority of Kosovo's population wouldn't support independence, but formally there never was any kind of vote, they just said one day Kosovo is now independent and USA and bunch of countries immediately recognized it as an independent state.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 11:32:23 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 15, 2015, 08:25:07 am
stupid question nicko, and you know the answer. You think it's secession because you listen to EU-hating far right sympathizer of NPD FPÖ and AfD Schachtschneider while 90% of academic historians, juridical, social and political scientists know it was an annexation by it's definition.
No I didn't say anything about was it secession or annexation. I asked a question to discuss. Technically how it was according to defenitions of that words it is more secession than annexation. About 90%  :lol: It is just geopolitical game between USA and Russia and EU acts just like a puppet of USA. Anyways sooner or later I think there will be a nuclear war if things will go the same.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 15, 2015, 12:04:16 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 11:32:23 am
...EU acts just like a puppet of USA....
How exactly does it act like a puppet of USA? What is with you russians and their constant assumption that because the relations between EU countries and USA are warm, its obvious we are all White house slaves? Actually the relationships between EU and USA are even slightly less than neutral in some parts. EU does not "act like a puppet of USA". Ironically EU countries are puppeted by EU itself, where the leading countries force laws and regulations upon lesser countries, laws that may work for them, but do not for everyone else. USA doesnt really have much hand in this. Unless you belive in Illuminati....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 12:52:08 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 15, 2015, 12:04:16 pm
How exactly does it act like a puppet of USA?
The Vice President of the United States Joseph Biden at Harvard university declared that the USA and personally the president Barack Obama compelled the EU to impose sanctions against Russia: "The European Union really didn't want it, but the president insisted. Yes, it had to embarrass Europe: despite of own economic interests, the EU forced Russia to pay"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 15, 2015, 01:19:31 pm
The EU isnt a single mind you know. Bunch of countries with their own interests. Pretty sure atleast half of them wanted to sanction Russias ass, whatever USA thought. 60% of EU does not need USAs help to not like Russia. What makes you so sure its mainly USA that wants to sanction Russia? Somehow I think Eastern-Europes EU countries want those sanctions more than the US and so the US shows its support to them. A lot of countries got scared when ruskies took Crimea. Russia should concentrate on showing Europe that its not a threat, not throw "USA did this" into the argument. Once EU calms the hell down, so will the US eventually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 01:34:51 pm
Quote from: Corwin on January 15, 2015, 10:31:23 am
while such referendum never took place in Kosovo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovan_independence_referendum,_1991
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 01:40:40 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 15, 2015, 01:19:31 pm
The EU isnt a single mind you know. Bunch of countries with their own interests.

Bunch of countries sucking Germoney nuts and UK who opposes it, therefore not a real member. EU works the same way einstein wanted his Europe to function, where UK also was the only opponent (Soviet Russia was a foreign threat, just like now). Because of that and other factors, EU will fall apart in less than 10 years from now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 02:18:08 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 15, 2015, 02:46:45 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 01:40:40 pm
Bunch of countries sucking Germoney nuts and UK who opposes it, therefore not a real member. EU works the same way einstein wanted his Europe to function, where UK also was the only opponent (Soviet Russia was a foreign threat, just like now). Because of that and other factors, EU will fall apart in less than 10 years from now.
...that you don't feel ashamed for posting crap like this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 15, 2015, 02:55:56 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 01:40:40 pm
(click to show/hide)
Well thats nice, doesnt contribute to(nor overrule) anything I said thou....but nice. Thou I dont really buy into that whole "will happen" part. People in the 70s were so confident that will definately see the world end through nuclear annihilation. I was told that by the time id reach the age of 18 il never get to drive a car, cause by that time oil will be too expensive for normal people. Not to mention we assumed a whole lot of other things falling appart that are still together. Because all of this and other  "factors" people can shove their "will happens" inside their own arseholes. World of geopolitics is filled with wildcards, you can calculate, assume, predict factors all you like, but things can quite easly take a whole other direction.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 15, 2015, 03:17:26 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 15, 2015, 12:04:16 pm
How exactly does it act like a puppet of USA? What is with you russians and their constant assumption that because the relations between EU countries and USA are warm, its obvious we are all White house slaves? Actually the relationships between EU and USA are even slightly less than neutral in some parts. EU does not "act like a puppet of USA". Ironically EU countries are puppeted by EU itself, where the leading countries force laws and regulations upon lesser countries, laws that may work for them, but do not for everyone else. USA doesnt really have much hand in this. Unless you belive in Illuminati....

Russians, Chinese and North Korea still think this is the 60s and the world is split into two between USA and allies and Soviet Union and allies.


Quick..someone make a mega African federation/alliance/union to be another alternative. It's proven by history that when a third part gets involved into politics and stuff, things turn for the better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 03:28:11 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 15, 2015, 03:17:26 pm
Russians, Chinese and North Korea still think this is the 60s and the world is split into two between USA and allies and Soviet Union and allies.
Seems others think this is 90s and the world has only one ruler USA and allies
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 04:07:54 pm
Quote from: Molly on January 15, 2015, 02:46:45 pm
...that you don't feel ashamed for posting crap like this.

Right after you show some shame for what you've ancestors did 70 years ago. You've even flaunted it once on this very forum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 15, 2015, 05:23:57 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 04:07:54 pm
Right after you show some shame for what you've ancestors did 70 years ago. You've even flaunted it once on this very forum.
Quote or never happened.
Now back to your hole, troll.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on January 15, 2015, 05:25:41 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 04:07:54 pm
Right after you show some shame for what you've ancestors did 70 years ago. You've even flaunted it once on this very forum.

I lold.


Good to see that you`re still a dumbass leshma.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 05:30:30 pm
Better troll than hypocrite. Making fun of others is fine (muslim caricatures for example) but the moment mighty Krautland gets into spotlight, then we all should feel shame for making stuff up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 15, 2015, 05:38:37 pm
Made me chuckle that you even admit to making shit up. Way to go...
Besides, I ment the "Einstein"-part. Keep making assumptions tho. Highly entertaining and I am kinda bored.

Still waiting for that quote.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on January 15, 2015, 05:50:22 pm
West is decadent anyways https://twitter.com/rottenwest
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 15, 2015, 06:05:38 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on January 15, 2015, 05:50:22 pm
West is decadent anyways https://twitter.com/rottenwest

Scrolled through that stupid shit and found this lol
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 15, 2015, 06:24:13 pm
Full of win!

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on January 15, 2015, 06:33:28 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 01:40:40 pm
Bunch of countries sucking Germoney nuts and UK who opposes it, therefore not a real member. EU works the same way einstein wanted his Europe to function, where UK also was the only opponent (Soviet Russia was a foreign threat, just like now). Because of that and other factors, EU will fall apart in less than 10 years from now.

it won't, maybe it will get rid of some overweight (aka greeks and possibly a few more countries), than it can work quite fine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 06:41:25 pm
It seems that the bus in Ukraine was blown up by a ukranian mine. Yes there was a GRAD, but not because of that people were killed in the bus
(click to show/hide)
As usual Kiev accused Russian terrorists in it, now I think NATO must confirm this as it was with ghost russian armed convoy, which was destroyed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 15, 2015, 07:17:56 pm
Only 2 good things have come out from Russia. Vodka and this man below:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on January 15, 2015, 07:18:33 pm
Anyone up for a Meanwhile in Armenia thread?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 15, 2015, 07:22:02 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on January 15, 2015, 07:18:33 pm
Anyone up for a Meanwhile in Armenia thread?

Meanwhile in 'murica

Need a place to put all of these "fatties on grocer scooters" pics
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 15, 2015, 08:40:42 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 15, 2015, 06:41:25 pm
It seems that the bus in Ukraine was blown up by a ukranian mine. Yes there was a GRAD, but not because of that people were killed in the bus
(click to show/hide)
As usual Kiev accused Russian terrorists in it, now I think NATO must confirm this as it was with ghost russian armed convoy, which was destroyed

If that moron actually had some sense - the "someone running" had to teleport a few meters for the explosion to happen where it seemed to originate. Also - AP mines have MUCH smaller explosion than what is seen in the video, they work via schrapnels. The crater left by the russian grad is of different scale and the explosion too.

Go back to sucking putlers medias balls of "information" and bring back some more fun bs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 15, 2015, 10:48:16 pm
Quote from: Corwin on January 15, 2015, 10:31:23 am
No, you can't. Croatia had every right to leave Yugoslavia, in accordance with Yugoslav Constitution from 1974. Every Yugoslav Republic had the same right: Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Serbia and Monteblack in spanish.

Kosovo's secession from Serbia was illegal, because Yugoslav Constitution never allowed for such possibility for Kosovo which was one of the provinces of Serbia. And this is exactly the argument the Russian's are using (and rightly so) - if EU and USA allowed something for Kosovo and set such precedent, why would it be impossible for Crimea? Most of EU countries (except for few dealing with secessionist movements themselves - like Spain for example) recognized Kosovo's independence, and USA did it in the first place. Shit, NATO led by US even made it possible in the first place by bombing Serbia & MNE into submission and making Serbia withdraw all the troops from Kosovo.

Also, one could argue that Crimea's referendum formally took place, no matter how ridiculous it was, while such referendum never took place in Kosovo. Not to say that huge majority of Kosovo's population wouldn't support independence, but formally there never was any kind of vote, they just said one day Kosovo is now independent and USA and bunch of countries immediately recognized it as an independent state.

I will never understand how one can fall for this bullshit argument. Yes, Kosovo's secession was illegal and probably one of the many terrible mistakes and crimes committed by USA (or their influence). But a) how does this makes actions of Russia better and b) how is this related to an annexation because Kosovo is now an (unstable) independent State while Crimea became part of Russia?

Russia planned to get crimea, send troops in, hold up pseudo reference and now they got it. How can you not call it an annexation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 15, 2015, 11:02:35 pm
As soon as technology gets cheaper first things first i'm getting the resources needed to build myself a fake island out in the seas with Anti Air and vehicle defenses to fuck any Russians or ISIS invading the hell up and just chilling out there in the sun
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 11:09:35 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 15, 2015, 10:48:16 pm
I will never understand how one can fall for this bullshit argument. Yes, Kosovo's secession was illegal and probably one of the many terrible mistakes and crimes committed by USA (or their influence).

Crime? For the last 40 years or maybe even longer, huge majority of Kosovo population aren't Serbs but Shqiptari (Albanians). They didn't want to be part of Serbia anymore. We are talking about 80% of Kosovo population.

That wasn't a crime but stupidity, just like leaving Yugoslavia was. But that's entirely different matter. All those who want to leave EU are countries led by idiots.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 15, 2015, 11:17:04 pm
I mainly wanted to say that I am not hiding the fact that USA did many errors/crimes/illegal wars etc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 15, 2015, 11:21:24 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 15, 2015, 11:17:04 pm
I mainly wanted to say that I am not hiding the fact that USA did many errors/crimes/illegal wars etc.


"Why me no can rape beautiful lady? USA very bad, therefore justify!"
- Average DonNicko
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 07:08:48 am
Quote from: Kafein on January 15, 2015, 11:21:24 pm

"Why me no can rape beautiful lady? USA very bad, therefore justify!"
- Average DonNicko
lol, actually I never hide a mistakes or crimes of Russia, I just wanted to show, that when USA did it before, EU just kept silence and licked the balls, that is double standarts. It means armed illegal revolution in Kiev, independance of Kosovo, bombing of countries, selling weapons to the opposition in Syria, what caused ISIS that's OK and EU keep silence. Illegal revolution in Crimea and Donbass, fuck you russian agressions, burn in hell. I just wanted to show your attitude)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on January 16, 2015, 09:16:57 am
Quote from: Leshma on January 15, 2015, 01:34:51 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovan_independence_referendum,_1991

Leshma, you are as useful as usual. That referendum did not happen. Can you provide any other source than that Wikipedia article? The Government of Serbia denied such claim when it was brought up by Americans, and no one was able to offer any proof.

Just look at this article you posted:

An independence referendum was held in Kosovo, then known as the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija between 26 and 30 September 1991. The dissolved Provincial Assembly had declared the Republic of Kosova a sovereign and independent state on 22 September 1991.

First, they don't even know the date of the referendum. It was held on one of these five dates between 26 and 30 September. And then, all representatives of Assembly of Kosovo travel back in time together and declare independence 4 days before the referendum. Really useful.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on January 16, 2015, 09:28:09 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 15, 2015, 10:48:16 pm
I will never understand how one can fall for this bullshit argument. Yes, Kosovo's secession was illegal and probably one of the many terrible mistakes and crimes committed by USA (or their influence). But a) how does this makes actions of Russia better and b) how is this related to an annexation because Kosovo is now an (unstable) independent State while Crimea became part of Russia?

Russia planned to get crimea, send troops in, hold up pseudo reference and now they got it. How can you not call it an annexation?

I am not saying that. I am just saying that by recognizing Kosovo Western countries set up a very bad precedent which allows the regions that do not have constitutional right to secede to do so. I am speaking only about legal, formal issues. Legally - Crimea referendum and "decision" to join Russia are as valid as Kosovo's decision to declare independence.

I am not referring to political issues, nor am I saying that justifies Russian actions. I think both was wrong. However, it is highly hypocritical when only 15 years after they allowed the same in Kosovo case (and it was justified only by - we can do it because we say so and because no one can stop us - Germany for example bombed us for the third time in 20th century, all three times because of humanitarian reasons), some Western countries are criticizing Russians. The Russians did make an extra step and annexed the region - and that's how Crimea is different.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 09:56:51 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 07:08:48 am
lol, actually I never hide a mistakes or crimes of Russia, I just wanted to show, that when USA did it before, EU just kept silence and licked the balls, that is double standarts. It means armed illegal revolution in Kiev, independance of Kosovo, bombing of countries, selling weapons to the opposition in Syria, what caused ISIS that's OK and EU keep silence. Illegal revolution in Crimea and Donbass, fuck you russian agressions, burn in hell. I just wanted to show your attitude)
No, what you did is a cheap whataboutism, which works only in the minds of russians like you. Your so called "government" fucks up daily, you do nothing, rejoice in vodka, and take the moral high ground "but others do mistakes too". Well... fuck you, accept your mistakes, then come preaching. Agreeing with oppinion of USA on one matter (e.g. russia being an agressor in this conflict) does not imply that there is a universal buttlicking going on, which is what your "media" keeps implying, far from it.

Also - don't compare apples to oranges, read something else apart your "political philosophical history" morons, who want CCCP back. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/24/crimea-kosovo-and-false-moral-equivalency/

BTW - friggin russia thought that Kosovo was illegal, now what that makes russia except moronically hypocritical and unjust? I would be ashamed of my country doing this BS.

Can you imagine ANYTHING like the recent US investigation into its own torture practices where they basically admitted they fucked up happening in russia under putler? IN NO BLOODY WAY,  because mother russia is never wrong, but always stronk, and stronk makes right. THATS how fucked up your country is and you personally by extension for being part of it and going around spouting your watabautisms.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 10:10:01 am
(click to show/hide)
Oh common Kuujis again so many words and no effect at once. Did I say something wrong? Are there no double standarts?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 10:24:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 10:10:01 am
(click to show/hide)
Oh common Kuujis again so many words and no effect at once. Did I say something wrong? Are there no double standarts?
Poor you living in a shithole country that russia is and having to suffer the double standards. Well - news flash - there are people dying, because you and the so called "government" of your cleptocracy want to argue about double standards and "omg noone likes us we must save russians".

Damn right there are double standards when it comes to Crimea vs Kosovo. First was imaginary bullshit created artificially by state controlled russian media, the other was due to fucking genocide and war crimes. One was a sham, the other was genuine and proper declaration of the will of population. So the double standards here are created by russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 10:40:14 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 10:24:58 am
Poor you living in a shithole country that russia is and having to suffer the double standards. Well - news flash - there are people dying, because you and the so called "government" of your cleptocracy want to argue about double standards and "omg noone likes us we must save russians".

Damn right there are double standards when it comes to Crimea vs Kosovo. First was imaginary bullshit created artificially by state controlled russian media, the other was due to fucking genocide and war crimes. One was a sham, the other was genuine and proper declaration of the will of population. So the double standards here are created by russia.
You forgot to say that double standarts about revolution in Kiev are also created by Russia. Also 4500 civilians in Donbass, that were killed by ukranian army is OK. Libya, Syria, Iraq also double standarts made by Russia. Guantanamo... fucking russians. Wiretap of the high-ranking officials, ah that's OK)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 10:50:20 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 07:08:48 am
lol, actually I never hide a mistakes or crimes of Russia, I just wanted to show, that when USA did it before, EU just kept silence and licked the balls, that is double standarts. It means armed illegal revolution in Kiev, independance of Kosovo, bombing of countries, selling weapons to the opposition in Syria, what caused ISIS that's OK and EU keep silence. Illegal revolution in Crimea and Donbass, fuck you russian agressions, burn in hell. I just wanted to show your attitude)
We dont actually have any evidence to back any of it you know. All that is an assumption that US is related. And yes, USA did fuck up big time when it comes to Syria, but it was rather wrong calculations and shitty luck, not because they are evil. USA has legitimately given countries actual democracy in the past and saved countries from the worst. It has fucked up some countries aswell, not gonna lie, but compare it to Russia. What country has Russia ever saved? Not even a single tiny one.

Revolution in Kiev might have mainly been just a movement cause people were tired of being Russias bitches. Before the revolution Ukraine was not a country, but a Russian province. Mybe US did have something to do with it, but its not a solid fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 11:01:11 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 10:40:14 am
You forgot to say that double standarts about revolution in Kiev are also created by Russia. Also 4500 civilians in Donbass, that were killed by ukranian army is OK. Libya, Syria, Iraq also double standarts made by Russia. Guantanamo... fucking russians. Wiretap of the high-ranking officials, ah that's OK)

And that is relevant to russia fucking things up in Ukraine because...?

You can wiggle all you like, but YOUR country incited the rebels, sent them equipement, fueled and created this conflict. Ukraine defended itselft, it had a right to do it, war is not fair, civilians and soldiers died, whole eastern Ukraine is fucked up. You argue its because Ukraine defended itself. I call this bullshit of russian grade. It is not the fault of the defending party, that it HAD to defend itself in the first place. 

It is russias, and YOUR by extension, fault for creating this conflict and the blood is on YOUR hands ultimately. Hope you feel nice about it.

P.S. You forgot to mention Odessa fire, did your brains get squishy due to overabundance of putlers media bullshit?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 11:05:00 am
Quote from: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 10:50:20 am
We dont actually have any evidence to back any of it you know. All that is an assumption that US is related. And yes, USA did fuck up big time when it comes to Syria, but it was rather wrong calculations and shitty luck, not because they are evil. USA has legitimately given countries actual democracy in the past and saved countries from the worst. It has fucked up some countries aswell, not gonna lie, but compare it to Russia. What country has Russia ever saved? Not even a single tiny one.

Revolution in Kiev might have mainly been just a movement cause people were tired of being Russias bitches. Before the revolution Ukraine was not a country, but a Russian province. Mybe US did have something to do with it, but its not a solid fact.
Lol, bad calculations and shitty luck, I would hear this from OBAMA. Asking what country was saved by Russia is the same as asking what country was saved by Estonia. Russia was fucked up in 90s so mush, corruption was raised extremely fast, many of billions dollars went to the USA and EU.

About revolution, then you have to remember that there was sighned a document where all requirements of the people were considered and people on maidan were happy, but after that day there were armed revolution, which was made by right sector, what EU did, fuck that documentr hail new government. Russians are tired of being Russians - nice try)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 11:08:32 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 11:05:00 am
Lol, bad calculations and shitty luck, I would hear this from OBAMA. Asking what country was saved by Russia is the same as asking what country was saved by Estonia. Russia was fucked up in 90s so mush, corruption was raised extremely fast, many of billions dollars went to the USA and EU.

About revolution, then you have to remember that there was sighned a document where all requirements of the people were considered and people on maidan were happy, but after that day there were armed revolution, which was made by right sector, what EU did, fuck that documentr hail new government. Russians are tired of being Russians - nice try)
Ofcourse... poor russians robbed and punished and sad and hurt... so sad... so now somehow this gives them right to fuck up next random neighbor... so they can feel somewhat less a shithole and more stronk neo-empire...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 11:14:50 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 11:01:11 am
And that is relevant to russia fucking things up in Ukraine because...?

You can wiggle all you like, but YOUR country incited the rebels, sent them equipement, fueled and created this conflict. Ukraine defended itselft, it had a right to do it, war is not fair, civilians and soldiers died, whole eastern Ukraine is fucked up. You argue its because Ukraine defended itself. I call this bullshit of russian grade. It is not the fault of the defending party, that it HAD to defend itself in the first place. 

It is russias, and YOUR by extension, fault for creating this conflict and the blood is on YOUR hands ultimately. Hope you feel nice about it.

P.S. You forgot to mention Odessa fire, did your brains get squishy due to overabundance of putlers media bullshit?
Yes I forgot about Odessa, ask civilians in Donbass who they blame Russia or Kiev. Russian troops, equipment. Nobody saw them, but everybody know - it is called propoganda. And you are an example of it. You can't even imagine that Donbass defend itself, just can't.
And if there wouldn't any revolution in Kiev, everything would be OK. Who supported revolution USA and EU. Who send troops to the East, when there were no volunteers from Russia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 11:40:55 am
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 11:05:00 am
Lol, bad calculations and shitty luck, I would hear this from OBAMA. Asking what country was saved by Russia is the same as asking what country was saved by Estonia. Russia was fucked up in 90s so mush, corruption was raised extremely fast, many of billions dollars went to the USA and EU.
Well it is bad calculations and shitty luck. Really think about it. The US pretty much fucked itself when it comes to Syria. They won nothing, they had nothing to gain to begin with.

And not a same antology. Estonia never pretended to be some bigshot and very relevant country, unlike Russia, which in its attemts to be more relevant chooses to fuck up the countries around it aswell...for I dont know what reason tbh. Really compare here. Look at russias allies. All russias friends are basically some poor countries with extremely corrupt governments. And "corruption was raised extremely fast"? You have always been corrupt. ALWAYS. Eversince Russia stopped having a tzar, you have been nothing but always nonstop corrupt. You dont need USA and EUs involvement. Its in russian peoples blood to be corrupt. You are basically stealing gypsies with your own land.


Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 11:05:00 am
About revolution, then you have to remember that there was sighned a document where all requirements of the people were considered and people on maidan were happy, but after that day there were armed revolution, which was made by right sector, what EU did, fuck that documentr hail new government. Russians are tired of being Russians - nice try)
Why do you think the people were happy and all requirements were considered? Typical russian imperialist scum: "everyone was happy in our empire, but than EU and USA ruined everything". Clearly the only people that were happy were russians. Not ukrainians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on January 16, 2015, 11:49:14 am
Why on earth is this shit still going on?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 12:03:25 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 11:40:55 am
Well it is bad calculations and shitty luck. Really think about it. The US pretty much fucked itself when it comes to Syria. They won nothing, they had nothing to gain to begin with.

And not a same antology. Estonia never pretended to be some bigshot and very relevant country, unlike Russia, which in its attemts to be more relevant chooses to fuck up the countries around it aswell...for I dont know what reason tbh. Really compare here. Look at russias allies. All russias friends are basically some poor countries with extremely corrupt governments. And "corruption was raised extremely fast"? You have always been corrupt. ALWAYS. Eversince Russia stopped having a tzar, you have been nothing but always nonstop corrupt. You dont need USA and EUs involvement. Its in russian peoples blood to be corrupt. You are basically stealing gypsies with your own land.
If USA wouldn't win anything, why they started it then? :shock:
Really don't see, how Russia fucks other countries now, but I think sooner or later Russia will become more powerful, if the war will not start. At least this sanctions helped inner production. Maybe it will take many years like in China, but we have enough resources, and USSR helped Vietnam(agressor) to win the war against USA(peacemaker), so maybe not Russia but USSR helped)
About corruption I agree, don't know what to do with it, just changing government won't help anyhow.
Interresting Ukranians mentally the same as russians, maybe now they have more corruption then before, how will EU help them? How will EU change the mentallity?

Quote from: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 11:40:55 am
Why do you think the people were happy and all requirements were considered? Typical russian imperialist scum: "everyone was happy in our empire, but than EU and USA ruined everything". Clearly the only people that were happy were russians. Not ukrainians.
I will remind you that russian side didn't sighned that document and was against it, but Yanikovich sighned it anyway. And people on a Maidan met it with triumph. Read that document first please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 16, 2015, 12:48:22 pm
Quote from: Moncho on January 16, 2015, 11:49:14 am
Why on earth is this shit still going on?
because Russia / America / put your country here / and muslims! :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 12:52:58 pm
Why the hell would I have to read it? The revolution in Kiev had relatively little to do with the document. Thats just eastern propaganda trying to find ways to blame EU even more. A revolution with this type of scale means that the ukrainians were angry long before it. The document was just the last straw. And the US started it cause it thought that Assad was a dictator and was about to massacre shitton of his own people. They wanted to help, but they backtracked cause now theres assloads of sides all fighting eachother in Syria, nobody doesnt even know whose side they are fighting for anymore. NATO beating Syrias army would have been a horrible mistake.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 01:07:00 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 12:52:58 pm
Why the hell would I have to read it? The revolution in Kiev had relatively little to do with the document. Thats just eastern propaganda trying to find ways to blame EU even more. A revolution with this type of scale means that the ukrainians were angry long before it. The document was just the last straw. And the US started it cause it thought that Assad was a dictator and was about to massacre shitton of his own people. They wanted to help, but they backtracked cause now theres assloads of sides all fighting eachother in Syria, nobody doesnt even know whose side they are fighting for anymore. NATO beating Syrias army would have been a horrible mistake.
Man, I would say the same about Crimea or Donbass, who were very close with Russia and was against new government.
About Syria, do you still have pink glasses, here you are another opinion: fall of the regime of Assad in Syria can lead to full isolation of Iran. Having lost the last ally in the Middle East, Tehran can be very vulnerable before possible air blows of the USA and Israel to the Iranian territory. And it, in turn, will weaken positions of Russia in the region of the Persian Gulf. Or you think that USA really cares about people from others countries?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 01:10:57 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 11:14:50 am
Yes I forgot about Odessa, ask civilians in Donbass who they blame Russia or Kiev. Russian troops, equipment. Nobody saw them, but everybody know - it is called propoganda. And you are an example of it. You can't even imagine that Donbass defend itself, just can't.
And if there wouldn't any revolution in Kiev, everything would be OK. Who supported revolution USA and EU. Who send troops to the East, when there were no volunteers from Russia?
Nobody saw them? You sure about that? So basically believe, that the ones, who were captured with arms and IFV's REALLY got lost 50km in Ukraines direction? With a straight face? Completely honest to yourself? I'm sorry, but for everyone with a barely open eyes and ears its beyond obvious so I'm not even going to waste time finding SHIT LOAD of VIDEOS of friggin CONVOYS of russian war machines in Ukraine. Its beyond even trolling at this point, just... well... it shows complete ignorance to deny this. Next - you can go and join the fucking liar parade with lavrov and putler at its front.

Or you can ask those MH17 victims how a russian buk shooting down their plane feels. Should be a good conversation. Just the quality your putler prefers: zombies believing everything they are told, not asking non-prearranged questions and a liar telling them "how it is".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 01:21:48 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 01:10:57 pm
Nobody saw them? You sure about that? So basically believe, that the ones, who were captured with arms and IFV's REALLY got lost 50km in Ukraines direction? With a straight face? Completely honest to yourself? I'm sorry, but for everyone with a barely open eyes and ears its beyond obvious so I'm not even going to waste time finding SHIT LOAD of VIDEOS of friggin CONVOYS of russian war machines in Ukraine. Its beyond even trolling at this point, just... well... it shows complete ignorance to deny this. Next - you can go and join the fucking liar parade with lavrov and putler at its front.

Or you can ask those MH17 victims how a russian buk shooting down their plane feels. Should be a good conversation. Just the quality your putler prefers: zombies believing everything they are told, not asking non-prearranged questions and a liar telling them "how it is".
About lost BTR, can't say anything, 50 km not that much, and this is not a convoy. You are saying about youtube videos? Most of vehicles are separatists' which were captured? Or videos from russian territories? Propoganded man don't need exact facts, he believes what he wants to believe. I can accept that maybe Russia helped somehow Donbass, but no country has any proofs, just youtube)
Didn't understand about the MH17, seems malasyans has more brains than you or some people who blamed Russia in while the plane were falling.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on January 16, 2015, 01:56:54 pm
If video evidence isnt proof what would qualify as proof to you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 01:59:37 pm
Quote from: Umbra on January 16, 2015, 01:56:54 pm
If video evidence isnt proof what would qualify as proof to you?
What video, if I will show the video where the man suck from the another one and say this the president of Croatia. Will you believe it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 02:02:16 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 01:21:48 pm
You are saying about youtube videos? Most of which are separatists' which were captured? Or videos from russian territories? Propoganded man don't need exact facts, he believes what he wants to believe. I can accept that maybe Russia helped somehow Donbass, but no country has any proofs, just youtube)
Didn't understand about the MH17, seems malasyans has more brains than you or some people who blamed Russia in while the plane were falling.
Man... you are really a bit "complicated" in your head. You don't want to see them - you will not see them. To see them you have to open the eyes and ears JUST A TINY BIT. You obviously can't.

"I can accept that maybe Russia helped somehow Donbass, but no country has any proofs, just youtube"... Check with your local putlers "ministry of truth" office - russia is not supporting the separatist, thats the "official truth", only humanitarian convoys (which incidentally can't be checked by anyone except ruskies).

Also "russians did not supply BUK and thus are not guilty" sounds as good as "Crimea was always russia". True only in putlers russia (c). Fuzzy logic just like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on January 16, 2015, 02:02:48 pm
I wouldnt be suprised, our former president was very feminine. We have a female president now, elected recently. So i wouldnt believe you, since it was 2 men in the video.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 02:12:05 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 02:02:16 pm
Man... you are really a bit "complicated" in your head. You don't want to see them - you will not see them. To see them you have to open the eyes and ears JUST A TINY BIT. You obviously can't.

"I can accept that maybe Russia helped somehow Donbass, but no country has any proofs, just youtube"... Check with your local putlers "ministry of truth" office - russia is not supporting the separatist, thats the "official truth", only humanitarian convoys (which incidentally can't be checked by anyone except ruskies).

Also "russians did not supply BUK and thus are not guilty" sounds as good as "Crimea was always russia". True only in putlers russia (c). Fuzzy logic just like that.
I saw many videos, some of them were made by separatists, they filmed their own vehicles. You can post any shit on youtube. But there is no official proof, that this vehicles are russians. But as I said I accept that Russia could send some, as I can accept that NATO could give weapon to Kiev. Both sides are guilty. The difference between us is that I can accept it and you blame only russian
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 16, 2015, 02:15:18 pm
can u all join TS and sweettalks here :!: stop ruin dat awesome thread  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 02:17:50 pm
Quote from: Umbra on January 16, 2015, 02:02:48 pm
I wouldnt be suprised, our former president was very feminine. We have a female president now, elected recently. So i wouldnt believe you, since it was 2 men in the video.
you see, why I have to believe videos, where tanks even don't match russian arms
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 16, 2015, 02:18:03 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 01:59:37 pm
What video, if I will show the video where the man suck from the another one and say this the president of Croatia. Will you believe it?

No, because the president of Croatia is a woman.

Update your drivers, blyat ))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 02:25:38 pm
Quote from: Christo on January 16, 2015, 02:18:03 pm
No, because the president of Croatia is a woman.

Update your drivers, blyat ))))))
I understood you ...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 02:30:12 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 02:12:05 pm
I saw many videos, some of them were made by separatists, they filmed their own vehicles. You can post any shit on youtube. But there is no official proof, that this vehicles are russians. But as I said I accept that Russia could send some, as I can accept that NATO could give weapon to Kiev. Both sides are guilty. The difference between us is that I can accept it and you blame only russian
So you are the sort that believes in magic... Ukraine sure as hell does not supply russian separatists in the region, russia dones "only small support", thus - the buk, tanks, ammo, food, brand-spanking-new artilery radars like this http://youtube.com/watch?v=FPFh-pLUUlo - they "APPEAR FROM NOWHERE" a.k.a. MAGIC. Must be magic "because in a warzone videos are not good enough as proofs, there must be official proofs".

REALLY thick those eyelids and earplugs of yours.

Quote from: Vovka on January 16, 2015, 02:15:18 pm
can u all join TS and sweettalks here :!: stop ruin dat awesome thread  :P

I'm at work, I can't :D
Furious typing though... thats what WORK is ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 04:14:51 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 02:30:12 pm
So you are the sort that believes in magic... Ukraine sure as hell does not supply russian separatists in the region, russia dones "only small support", thus - the buk, tanks, ammo, food, brand-spanking-new artilery radars like this http://youtube.com/watch?v=FPFh-pLUUlo - they "APPEAR FROM NOWHERE" a.k.a. MAGIC. Must be magic "because in a warzone videos are not good enough as proofs, there must be official proofs".

REALLY thick those eyelids and earplugs of yours.
 
Again you post something. Seems you don't see what I wrote before. What magic do you talk about? I said that there can be support from Russia, what you wanted to prove, I can't understand. I can show video where OCSE find american weapons and what. As I said I accept that 2 sides are guilty, but you can blame only Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 16, 2015, 04:47:03 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 16, 2015, 04:14:51 pm
Again you post something. Seems you don't see what I wrote before. What magic do you talk about? I said that there can be support from Russia, what you wanted to prove, I can't understand. I can show video where OCSE find american weapons and what. As I said I accept that 2 sides are guilty, but you can blame only Russia
Please show me the video where OSCE finds American weapons in Ukraine being involved in this conflict, truly interested.

Up until now - only non-lethal aid was provided to UKR army, so you are going along as a proper zombie and comparing apples and oranges, as told by your "news".

And in any case - russia is sending its own troops, materials and propaganda to Ukraine, which is under attack. It is only logical, that countries, who do not agree with such behavior show support to the victim of unprovoked aggression. While you may choose to ignore a person being beaten in the streed and question the people trying to help him "why do you interfere in this fight? its not your business!" I would only commend such behavior and I see NOTHING wrong with it, on the opposite actually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 16, 2015, 09:13:20 pm
You and Niko in this thread reminds me that  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 16, 2015, 10:27:48 pm
Thats kinda soothing tbh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 17, 2015, 01:27:31 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 16, 2015, 09:13:20 pm
You and Niko in this thread reminds me that  :P


You remind me of the guy who tries to applaud at the right time but fails most of them, good luck and keep up the good attempts.

Also - for DonNicko who likes proofs: http://sled-vzayt.livejournal.com/1730.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 18, 2015, 02:16:27 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 17, 2015, 01:27:31 pm
You remind me of the guy who tries to applaud at the right time but fails most of them, good luck and keep up the good attempts.

Also - for DonNicko who likes proofs: http://sled-vzayt.livejournal.com/1730.html
oh u!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 18, 2015, 11:55:10 am
Is that Stephen Fry. It reminds me that the old fart has a boyfriend, who looks like this:
(click to show/hide)
Jesus freaking christ, its like a stereotypical gayversion of rich famous guys marrying young girls.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 18, 2015, 02:32:23 pm
So what you're saying is that you think his boyfriend is hot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 18, 2015, 02:53:33 pm
Is it possible to say yes in a nogay kinda way?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 18, 2015, 03:11:04 pm
First Ukraine, then Latvia with their potatos and rest of Eastern Europe.

Soviet Union will make a comeback and they will all sing this together.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 18, 2015, 04:16:10 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 18, 2015, 02:53:33 pm
Is it possible to say yes in a nogay kinda way?

That's still gay

Quote from: LordBerenger on January 18, 2015, 03:11:04 pm
then Latvia with their potatoes

Potatium enriched nukes, true importance of Latvia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 18, 2015, 04:31:14 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 18, 2015, 04:38:29 pm
The appropriate dose of potato depends on several factors such as the user's age, health, and several other conditions. At this time there is not enough scientific information to determine an appropriate range of doses for potato. Keep in mind that natural products are not always necessarily safe and dosages can be important. Be sure to follow relevant directions on product labels and consult your pharmacist or physician or other healthcare professional before using.


tl;dr INCREASE DOSAGE
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Andswaru on January 18, 2015, 08:04:49 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 18, 2015, 11:55:10 am
Is that Stephen Fry. It reminds me that the old fart has a boyfriend, who looks like this:
(click to show/hide)
Jesus freaking christ, its like a stereotypical gayversion of rich famous guys marrying young girls.

He just got married today, now time for the divorce and payout to complete the classic lovestory.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 18, 2015, 10:36:05 pm
Quote from: Andswaru on January 18, 2015, 08:04:49 pm
He just got married today, now time for the divorce and payout to complete the classic lovestory.

Why settle with divorce when you can fake abuse and milk that cash cow for life?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 18, 2015, 11:10:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 18, 2015, 02:32:23 pm
So what you're saying is that you think his boyfriend is hot.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 18, 2015, 11:17:03 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 18, 2015, 11:10:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

SMEGMAR on the right hand side
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 20, 2015, 07:16:27 am
https://twitter.com/myrevolutionrus/status/557287546628374528


on the left side: evidence from the terrorist attack in Kharkov, indicating the involvement of the Kremlin (according to the Interior Ministry of Ukraine)

Right: it's voodoo doll "separatist" prepared for the auction
  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 20, 2015, 09:09:02 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 20, 2015, 07:16:27 am
https://twitter.com/myrevolutionrus/status/557287546628374528


on the left side: evidence from the terrorist attack in Kharkov, indicating the involvement of the Kremlin (according to the Interior Ministry of Ukraine)

Right: it's voodoo doll "separatist" prepared for the auction
  :lol:
Hope this laughter of yours gets you through the shit-storm which hopefully is coming to russia.

How about https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2015/01/19/how-did-american-weapons-end-up-at-donetsk-airport/ ? Didn't your "news" show anything related?

Also - do russians take pride in their newly reformed and mighty army? Because sure as hell it does not look like you do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nNSxTomY2s

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 20, 2015, 02:53:19 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 20, 2015, 09:09:02 am
Hope this laughter of yours gets you through the shit-storm which hopefully is coming to russia.
How about https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2015/01/19/how-did-american-weapons-end-up-at-donetsk-airport/ ? Didn't your "news" show anything related?
Also - do russians take pride in their newly reformed and mighty army? Because sure as hell it does not look like you do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nNSxTomY2s
  machine gunners in the forest not have been captured on video  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 20, 2015, 04:43:02 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 20, 2015, 02:53:19 pm
  machine gunners in the forest not have been captured on video  :P
thats... approximately the response I expected  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 20, 2015, 04:57:02 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 20, 2015, 04:43:02 pm
thats... approximately the response I expected  :rolleyes:
I try not to ruin your stereotypes  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 21, 2015, 10:12:21 pm
So what's actually going on in Ukraine with the fighting? Like, how are the battles being fought? How has it lasted this long? Why isn't the government's military able to defeat the separatists? They're obviously backed by Russia, but since Russia is still trying to maintain some plausible deniability, the backing shouldn't be enough to let the separatists manhandle a government army a million man strong... so what gives? I'm under the impression only a fraction of the Ukrainian military is mobilized and fighting. Why? It seems like all the fighting is super half-hearted. Got to be, or it'd be over, one way or the other.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on January 22, 2015, 03:12:01 am
Quote from: Xant on January 21, 2015, 10:12:21 pm
So what's actually going on in Ukraine with the fighting? Like, how are the battles being fought? How has it lasted this long? Why isn't the government's military able to defeat the separatists? They're obviously backed by Russia, but since Russia is still trying to maintain some plausible deniability, the backing shouldn't be enough to let the separatists manhandle a government army a million man strong... so what gives? I'm under the impression only a fraction of the Ukrainian military is mobilized and fighting. Why? It seems like all the fighting is super half-hearted. Got to be, or it'd be over, one way or the other.

its hard to fight separatists when they are funded by Russia, fuck not even i would wanna fight this.


confirmed separatists are Terminator robots.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 09:28:13 am
Quote from: Xant on January 21, 2015, 10:12:21 pm
So what's actually going on in Ukraine with the fighting? Like, how are the battles being fought? How has it lasted this long? Why isn't the government's military able to defeat the separatists? They're obviously backed by Russia, but since Russia is still trying to maintain some plausible deniability, the backing shouldn't be enough to let the separatists manhandle a government army a million man strong... so what gives? I'm under the impression only a fraction of the Ukrainian military is mobilized and fighting. Why? It seems like all the fighting is super half-hearted. Got to be, or it'd be over, one way or the other.
million man strong?  :shock:
in the days of the Soviet Union they mb have  like 800 thousand, in 2012 it was 200к and continued to reduce,
add to dat ~20 territorial defense battalions from 100-to 1k man in each and 50k from mobilization and so i think its 300k max but mb i wrong.

Also even 1 mil cant win if they receive orders from apes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 22, 2015, 09:40:26 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 09:28:13 am
....
Also even 1 mil cant win if they receive orders from apes

Technically thats how Soviet Union won its battles. Enemy killed so much red army soldiers that they just ran out of ammo. Mybe its better now in the modern times, but in the past the only way russians won anything was just throwing a lot of people infront of bullets. You are just naturally bad at tactics. Kinda like most arabnations are bad at modern arial-and tankcombat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 09:45:35 am
Quote from: Tibe on January 22, 2015, 09:40:26 am
Technically thats how Soviet Union won its battles. Enemy killed so much red army soldiers that they just ran out of ammo. Mybe its better now in the modern times, but in the past the only way russians won anything was just throwing a lot of people infront of bullets. You are just naturally bad at tactics. Kinda like most arabnations are bad at modern arial-and tankcombat.

 By the way, who do you mean by speaking of "Russians", I always confused especially when it is used in a conversation about "USSR"

quick example, a tank in a few million and crew died because there was no reactive armor, cells are empty
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 22, 2015, 09:52:37 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 09:45:35 am
By the way, who do you mean by speaking of "Russians", I always confused especially when it is used in a conversation about "USSR"
Based on latest shit you have been cooking up - there is barely any difference from "modern" russia and USSR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 22, 2015, 09:54:22 am
By that I mean people who live in the general area. Its kinda hard and long to say "people of the USSR" or something. But I totally understand the confusion. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 22, 2015, 10:12:48 am
Quote from: Xant on January 21, 2015, 10:12:21 pm
So what's actually going on in Ukraine with the fighting?

The Donetsk 'Airport' has fallen into the hands of the separatist vermin lately.

Well it won't see a plane landing there in a while based on its condition, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 22, 2015, 10:15:15 am
Quote from: Christo on January 22, 2015, 10:12:48 am
The Donetsk 'Airport' has fallen into the hands of the separatist vermin lately.

Well it won't see a plane landing there in a while based on its condition, that's for sure.

Actually - CIVILIAN planes - no, military transport planes - why not? They can land in fields, patching up a runway is all they need, not the terminals.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 22, 2015, 10:17:27 am
Place has a fuckton of holes, think of the drunkards falling into them over and over while trying to fix the landing strip  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 10:17:49 am
Quote from: Christo on January 22, 2015, 10:12:48 am
The Donetsk 'Airport' has fallen into the hands of the separatist vermin lately.
Well it won't see a plane landing there in a while based on its condition, that's for sure.
He was held not for strategic purposes, but political. I'm sure in the next two days will be found guilty traitor, and Poroshenko promises to recapture it. And will be sent to the death of a couple of hundred kids for to maintain political rating.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 22, 2015, 10:18:22 am
spasibo sherlock

)))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 10:21:27 am
Quote from: Christo on January 22, 2015, 10:18:22 am
spasibo sherlock

)))
elementarno!

By the way, recently published a video on which some freak argues that in the next few weeks the Kolomoiskiy's army of mercenaries begin  takeover it will begin in Dnepropetrovsk ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 22, 2015, 11:23:44 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 09:28:13 am
million man strong?  :shock:
in the days of the Soviet Union they mb have  like 800 thousand, in 2012 it was 200к and continued to reduce,
add to dat ~20 territorial defense battalions from 100-to 1k man in each and 50k from mobilization and so i think its 300k max but mb i wrong.

Also even 1 mil cant win if they receive orders from apes
Active personnel   250,800 (8.2015)
Reserve personnel   720,000 (12.2014)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 12:13:13 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 22, 2015, 11:23:44 am
Active personnel   250,800 (8.2015)
Reserve personnel   720,000 (12.2014)
Unless they plan to repeat Stalingrad ^^ 1 rifle for two soldiers
for 2015 is planned to mobilize 200k, ie an increase in the army almost doubled, apparently all goes bad for ua army
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 22, 2015, 12:42:51 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 12:13:13 pm
Unless they plan to repeat Stalingrad ^^ 1 rifle for two soldiers
for 2015 is planned to mobilize 200k, ie an increase in the army almost doubled, apparently all goes bad for ua army
Weird if they don't have rifles for all of them, considering how cheap AKs are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 01:10:02 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 22, 2015, 12:42:51 pm
Weird if they don't have rifles for all of them, considering how cheap AKs are.
  I'd rather talk about military vehicles, at the last press conference with Ukrainian military prisoners from the airport, they said that their crew the car was assembled from four different crews, but their car broke down half way. So after four months of training man was captured on the second hour of battle, because his car broke down. Of course it is possible prapoganda, but taking into account age vehicles, I am inclined to believe.
 

 in chechnia was the same, on the TV show the newest models of tanks and helicopters, but the soldiers fought on the buckets. At the same time the oligarchs make money using his connections in the headquarters.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 22, 2015, 05:56:49 pm
Damn, those Ukrainians are clearly getting help from western puppetmasters. Why would they have cars breaking down otherwise?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 22, 2015, 07:57:16 pm
Quote from: Kafein on January 22, 2015, 05:56:49 pm
Damn, those Ukrainians are clearly getting help from western puppetmasters. Why would they have cars breaking down otherwise?
there is no reason to spend extra money to rescue the soldiers if there 720,000 in reserv (12.2014)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on January 23, 2015, 08:54:26 am
Quote from: Xant on January 21, 2015, 10:12:21 pm
So what's actually going on in Ukraine with the fighting? Like, how are the battles being fought? How has it lasted this long? Why isn't the government's military able to defeat the separatists? They're obviously backed by Russia, but since Russia is still trying to maintain some plausible deniability, the backing shouldn't be enough to let the separatists manhandle a government army a million man strong... so what gives? I'm under the impression only a fraction of the Ukrainian military is mobilized and fighting. Why? It seems like all the fighting is super half-hearted. Got to be, or it'd be over, one way or the other.

Ukrainian army is currently blocked in its actions. Ukrainians can't use artillery as actively as it's needed because pro-russian forces are shooting from cities, that would mean a total annihilation of everything inside cities including civilians. If a single explosion in the city which takes several lives of civilians gets such a huge social coverage in media imagine what would happen if you widely use artillery with that capacity of troops on such a small territory (nothing to say about thousands of dead civilians each day if not hour of such usage of artillery). Same things go for air forces and so on. Basically pro-russians are having unlimited amount of everything, it's like playing against a cheater, you kill 10 of his tanks and 300 of infantry and on the very next day he gets new. Backing by Russia can have any amount of troops/weapons. At this point Ukrainian military system works a lot on its reserve personnel to be ready for full scale invasion, also time works for Ukraine now as Russia suffers economical crisis by now. If it was up to me - I would leave the whole situation there as it is, live of people are not worth it. Also people need time to understand and compare.

As Vovka stated correctly, Donetsk Airport was not a strategic place, rather a political. There was no strategic sense to hold it as neither russian nor ukrainian aircrafts could land there, you need just 1 day of artillery work to make it impossible to land. Ukrainians held it until everything got destroyed but pro-russians on their hand didn't actively try to capture it during all those 200 days, was more like attempts with breaks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on January 23, 2015, 11:20:56 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 23, 2015, 11:48:00 am
Since we are doing pictures...
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 23, 2015, 12:49:54 pm
Good guy Putin, makes sure the bear doesnt run out. If it does, its gonna go apeshit and kill everything. Atleast this way it will eventually overdose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 23, 2015, 01:19:58 pm
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proper tank for taking selfie  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 23, 2015, 01:22:50 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 23, 2015, 02:25:57 pm
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Also I found a picture of something that belongs to Tovi.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 23, 2015, 06:57:17 pm
I seriously wouldn't be surprised if that was from Tovi's apartment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 24, 2015, 08:54:21 pm
Well comrades, since putler decided to go full retard again - please tell me how that shit is being spinned in the russian so called "media"?
http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136031

And here is an interesing piece of russian media:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aelwn_UfeN0

With stuff like "Police was loyal to Kiev". "We forced Crimean MPs to vote". "Ukrainian military was loyal to Kiev". coming out of that strelkovs fucked up mouth. Anyone want to have another go at "secession" or "annexation" argument?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 24, 2015, 10:17:17 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on January 24, 2015, 11:13:38 pm
i think it will end up badly, ukraine military is not really capable to send back to russia enough bodybags while stupid monkey from washington can't even deliver ukrainians anything else but non lethal equipment. with bush it would be whole different story. fate of georgia awaits ukraine unless some miracle happens. i'm disgusted with current euroamerican political leaders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 24, 2015, 11:29:35 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on January 24, 2015, 11:13:38 pm
i think it will end up badly, ukraine military is not really capable to send back to russia enough bodybags while stupid monkey from washington can't even deliver ukrainians anything else but non lethal equipment. with bush it would be whole different story. fate of georgia awaits ukraine unless some miracle happens. i'm disgusted with current euroamerican political leaders.
Why should it be US's job to send Ukrainians anything else? How does that make them "stupid"? What are the "stupid Brits" doing? Or the "stupid Germans"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 25, 2015, 03:55:37 am
- Sir war in Europe!
- we need to urgently convene a United Nations Security Council and make paper about this!

un such a lame shit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 25, 2015, 08:26:15 am
-Sir an ex-USSR Nonpro-Russian country next to us, with a large russian minority has a political crysis!
-Get our unidentifiable soldiers there, constantly tell the minority that their government is chocolate chip cookie nonstop, annex like 10% and claim to the world its always been ours!

You are right, this does seem more fun.
Kinda barbaric, but fun.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 26, 2015, 09:17:55 am
Someone called me ?

Here is the kind of things I use to look at :
(click to show/hide)

The Resistance to US dominion in Europe is rising : Syriza in Greece, Novorossia in Ukraine, or countries like Hungary or Tcheq republic leave EU to get closer to Russia.
Next step is the collapse of Euro and european economy. When european peoples will starve like greeks, they will beg help from Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 26, 2015, 09:32:47 am
I can not properly express with the words at my disposal how stupid I think you are, Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on January 26, 2015, 09:37:27 am
I think he is just trying to troll at this point
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 26, 2015, 09:41:08 am
That's the scary part: I think he is dead serious.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 26, 2015, 10:36:45 am
Quote from: Molly on January 26, 2015, 09:41:08 am
That's the scary part: I think he is dead serious.
You know... on the upside he avoided mentioning NWO and that Dzerdzzdzcdzcinsky (whatever his surname is) this time! That guy even made a new "incriminating" statement, that NATO should station MOAR troops in baltics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 26, 2015, 11:50:26 am
I still don't know what NWO is, can you explain please ?

Here is a video of some infantry fight :


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on January 26, 2015, 12:55:42 pm
my guess is new world order.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 26, 2015, 01:41:04 pm
I always imagine what face would actual operatives or high officials in US have when they read the load of crap that Tovitypes of people write and think. I assume its kinda same reaction those CIA guys had in "Burn after reading". Somehow i get the feeling these conspiracytheorists give US lot more credit than they deserve. IF USA was a person and dropped a cheeseburger in Mcdonalds, im pretty sure Tovi would think this is a part of a bigger plot to invade something again. "He bought french fries and nachos, which clearly spells that they are going to take over France and Mexico! WHY IS NOONE LISTENING TO ME?!?!?!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 26, 2015, 03:32:42 pm
TOVI! YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG! NOW pUTLER GOT THIS ALL FIGURED OUT! NWO SHALL BE STOPPED!

http://rt.com/news/226319-putin-nato-russia-ukraine/

Also - a damn interesting read http://www.rferl.org/content/maksim-frank-kamenetsky-letter-to-russians/26809582.html :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 26, 2015, 04:28:07 pm
Those live comments on the RT link are just golden x)


Edit: Look, Vovka is posting there too:

Quote
russianvictoryinukraine   
      
You can spot and kill Americans on the battlefield easy, look for them holding hands and kissing.

Or is that just "Russian"? :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 26, 2015, 04:31:39 pm
RT is so pukeworthy. Almost as bad as Faux News
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 26, 2015, 05:03:59 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 26, 2015, 04:31:39 pm
RT is so pukeworthy. Almost as bad as Faux News

Speaking of Faux Noose, a guy protesting it turned a gun on himself:

http://nypost.com/2015/01/26/man-shot-outside-news-corp-building-in-nyc/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow (http://nypost.com/2015/01/26/man-shot-outside-news-corp-building-in-nyc/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 26, 2015, 05:53:13 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on January 26, 2015, 05:03:59 pm
Speaking of Faux Noose, a guy protesting it turned a gun on himself:

http://nypost.com/2015/01/26/man-shot-outside-news-corp-building-in-nyc/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow (http://nypost.com/2015/01/26/man-shot-outside-news-corp-building-in-nyc/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow)

lul
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 26, 2015, 06:26:06 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 26, 2015, 05:53:13 pm
lul

Indeed

Disgruntled former employee, claimed the network 'ruined his life'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 26, 2015, 08:56:22 pm
Oh, oh, this is a good one...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russian-officials-are-dangerously-out-of-touch/514857.html

SO - Don and Vovka - will you eat less as your so called "government" suggests? Or are you the "out of touch ruling class"? :)

(sorry for false dichotomy, could not resist  :rolleyes: )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 26, 2015, 09:08:46 pm
I have a suspicion to share.
I think Vovka, Nicko and the other Russians wouldn't ever admit that they are not satisfied with the current situation in Russia. I believe they consider criticizing their government as a sign of weakness. The Russian Bear can't be weak now, can it. And that is probably the reason why we will never get an honest answer when asked about the conditions on the streets for the rather poor people.

Might even be that both belong to the lucky, financially save part of the population and actually are "out of touch".

Or we "silly silly Westerners" are the once being constantly lied by our press to make believe there are issues when there are none.

Guess we all will never know... x)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 26, 2015, 09:37:52 pm
Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 27, 2015, 12:31:42 am
Quote from: Molly on January 26, 2015, 09:08:46 pm
Might even be that both belong to the lucky, financially save part of the population and actually are "out of touch".

This. You'd react the same if people were asking about poverty in your country if you don't know any poor people yourself. A large problem can be invisible depending on your environment, and in a country friendly to rich people like Russia it's very easy to end up completely isolated from the problems of others.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 27, 2015, 01:16:16 am
CIA does not exist, it's a conspiracy theory. USA is a very smart and gentle country, they spend billion$ to help poor countries. God Bless America !

Oops, sorry I've just watched an american movie, my brain has been washed for few seconds.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 27, 2015, 01:42:51 am
lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 27, 2015, 07:46:46 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 26, 2015, 08:56:22 pm
Oh, oh, this is a good one...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russian-officials-are-dangerously-out-of-touch/514857.html
SO - Don and Vovka - will you eat less as your so called "government" suggests? Or are you the "out of touch ruling class"? :)
(sorry for false dichotomy, could not resist  :rolleyes: )
Clear from the context that he was called to a healthy lifestyle and to abandon the "gluttony" (if I am not mistaken Russia in second place for fat men in the world, or at least in the top five). Unfortunately he did not realize that many already before the crisis could not afford to gluttony.
  With regards to me, I live in St. Petersburg, a сity with developed supplies and services, so I do not feel the crisis so hard, there is a lot of  food and service at the old prices. Also unlike the western experts on this forum can not speak for the whole Russia  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 27, 2015, 09:16:30 am
Quote from: Vovka on January 27, 2015, 07:46:46 am
Clear from the context that he was called to a healthy lifestyle and to abandon the "gluttony" (if I am not mistaken Russia in second place for fat men in the world, or at least in the top five). Unfortunately he did not realize that many already before the crisis could not afford to gluttony.
  With regards to me, I live in St. Petersburg, a сity with developed supplies and services, so I do not feel the crisis so hard, there is a lot of  food and service at the old prices. Also unlike the western experts on this forum can not speak for the whole Russia  :P
Ahhh... we have a bourgeois here :) Congratzz.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on January 27, 2015, 03:10:21 pm
Dont know if this is a new video but here

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 27, 2015, 03:27:42 pm
Quote from: Umbra on January 27, 2015, 03:10:21 pm
Dont know if this is a new video but here

Obvious EU/Nato propaganda is obvious. Freedom Fighters of DNR/LNR would never do such things. They are honourable men and women. All lies!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 27, 2015, 03:50:41 pm
Quote from: Molly on January 27, 2015, 03:27:42 pm
Obvious EU/Nato propaganda is obvious. Freedom Fighters of DNR/LNR would never do such things. They are honourable men and women. All lies!
what kind of things? think in the battles they operate with facts and links to Wikipedia?
these guys was surrounded, and offered to surrender, they refused and started shooting and were killed. Their bodies were brought for later transfer to the Ukrainian military since military themselves often leave them lying for several days.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 27, 2015, 03:54:46 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 27, 2015, 03:50:41 pm
what kind of things? think in the battles they operate with facts and links to Wikipedia?
these guys was surrounded, and offered to surrender, they refused and started shooting and were killed. Their bodies were brought for later transfer to the Ukrainian military since military themselves often leave them lying for several days.
So... beating up handcuffed militants of the opposing side is... erm... "business as usual"? Its not the first time IIRC, there was that "march" on Ukraine independence day... Or did you miss that completely and comfortably? :) Didn't Russia1 show this video during the news time? I'm SHOCKED. SHOCKED! I tell you... completely shocked.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 27, 2015, 04:00:45 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 27, 2015, 03:54:46 pm
So... beating up handcuffed militants of the opposing side is... erm... "business as usual"? Its not the first time IIRC, there was that "march" on Ukraine independence day... Or did you miss that completely and comfortably? :) Didn't Russia1 show this video during the news time? I'm SHOCKED. SHOCKED! I tell you... completely shocked.
Lift up your ass away from the computer, walk 500 meters and you will see more shocking things  :P
a pair of punches to the head, nothing, given that an hour earlier they were ready to kill you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 27, 2015, 09:11:57 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 27, 2015, 04:00:45 pm
Lift up your ass away from the computer, walk 500 meters and you will see more shocking things  :P
a pair of punches to the head, nothing, given that an hour earlier they were ready to kill you
Oh? Maybe in russia you would, I can bet you would not in a proper country...

I guess this "treatment" is an expected and normal behavior, if you are a russian or IN russia, but sorry to bring it to you - it is NOT, if one has ANY pretensions whatsoever to be called "civilized".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 27, 2015, 10:36:06 pm
Ofcourse. Since ruble is worthless, they have returned back to their older currency. Punching and vodka. "Comrad, i give yuo 2 punch in face and 2l of vodku for phone. We hav deel r not?"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on January 27, 2015, 10:38:56 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 27, 2015, 10:36:06 pm
Ofcourse. Since ruble is worthless, they have returned back to their older currency. Punching and vodka. "Comrad, i give yuo 2 punch in face and 2l of vodku for phone. We hav deel r not?"

Do I get the vodka for free if I punch first?  Am many stronk
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 27, 2015, 10:41:19 pm
Only if its a knockout, son.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on January 28, 2015, 01:49:53 am
Screw the OSCE,  the UEFA should handle the whole mess.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/soccer-crimea-could-form-uefa-approved-league-russian-152500008--sow.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 28, 2015, 12:30:47 pm
anyone saw Leviathan yet? Gotta love the controversy in Russia already. 'omg russians made a film that won a golden globe, it's gotta be evil western world behind it.'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 28, 2015, 01:33:15 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 28, 2015, 12:30:47 pm
anyone saw Leviathan yet? Gotta love the controversy in Russia already. 'omg russians made a film that won a golden globe, it's gotta be evil western world behind it.'
the film is very weak, won an Oscar as an advertisement for wider dissemination among Western audiences ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 28, 2015, 02:23:40 pm
not an oscar yet :)

definitely will watch it, but not because it won a Golden Globe but because of the hilarious comments of russian officials and church.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 28, 2015, 02:30:10 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 28, 2015, 02:23:40 pm
not an oscar yet :)

definitely will watch it, but not because it won a Golden Globe but because of the hilarious comments of russian officials and church.
not an oscar?!?! fucking kiselev prapoganda  :cry: the whole country celebrated the victory last month, and it's all lies!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 28, 2015, 02:37:46 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 28, 2015, 01:33:15 pm
the film is very weak, won an Oscar as an advertisement for wider dissemination among Western audiences ^^
Off course it is weak. Very weak film. The actors suck. The scenario sucks. The whole premise of a corrupt and rotten russia shithole sucks, because it does not support shiney bourgeois view of "great russian bear" or some other shit-icon approved by putlers shaika :)

Those pretentious experts and film critics - what do they know right  :rolleyes:

ALSO: http://itar-tass.com/en/russia/773830 either someone went full retard or this is a seriously cool attempt at international trolling... cant make up my mind.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 28, 2015, 02:43:11 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 28, 2015, 02:37:46 pm
Off course it is weak. Very weak film. The actors suck. The scenario sucks. The whole premise of a corrupt and rotten russia shithole sucks, because it does not support shiney bourgeois view of "great russian bear" or some other shit-icon approved by putlers shaika :)
 Those pretentious experts and film critics - what do they know right  :rolleyes:
So you watched it? or judge of it reportedly others?
its sad when politics >>> almost anything
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on January 28, 2015, 03:05:11 pm
"Young men and teenagers as young as 16 are being recruited to fight against Russia in the eastern Donbas. This group is part of the ultranationalist Right Sector's Ukrainian Volunteer Corps."

from http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/teenage-warriors-prepare-for-battle-as-part-of-right-sectors-ukrainian-volunteer-corps-378607.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/teenage-warriors-prepare-for-battle-as-part-of-right-sectors-ukrainian-volunteer-corps-378607.html)

Not sure about the credibility of kyivpost, but the story also went live on ap.no (norways 2nd most serios newspaper)
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Rekrutterer-tenaringer-til-krigen-mot-russerne--7878396.html (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Rekrutterer-tenaringer-til-krigen-mot-russerne--7878396.html)

Definition of a child soldier:  A child associated with an armed force or armed group refers to any person below 18 years of age who is, or who has been, recruited or used by an armed force or armed group in any capacity, including but not limited to children, boys and girls, used as fighters, cooks, porters, spies or for sexual purposes.

Human rights law declares 18 as the minimum legal age for recruitment and use of children in hostilities.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 28, 2015, 03:11:57 pm
Those are not children but Teenagers, get it right.

Seriously calling a 16-7 yo a child? wut
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on January 28, 2015, 03:28:34 pm
I dont make the definitions of the term child soldier. The UN does.

It shows really poor judgement on the people that sends 16-17 yo to a warzone, even recruiting them.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 28, 2015, 03:36:23 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2014, 07:48:48 pm
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Well, looks like Tovi got his agenda going over here  :lol:

http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/correctionrussian-deputies-mull-condemning-east-germanys-annexation_374648.html (http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/correctionrussian-deputies-mull-condemning-east-germanys-annexation_374648.html)

"By the logic of those who call (Crimea) an annexation, you can easily say that the Federal Republic of Germany annexed the German Democratic Republic," Naryshkin said on Sunday. He added that Russia was against such logic, the RIA Novosti state news agency reported.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 28, 2015, 04:11:37 pm
There is a possibility there will be a day when the shoe is on the other foot and China ends up taking a decent chunk out of Russia aswell, using roughly the same stupid logic they themselves helped to shape. I belive the word will be "irony".

A lot of Russias nukes are aimed at China. Their side of the border is practically empty, while Chinas side is pretty much overflowing with people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 04:53:44 pm
They should be happy. Chinese food is epic. And chinese girls are hot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 28, 2015, 05:23:56 pm
Ive been reading the commentsection of RT news for shits and giggles and it really is rather odd that pro-Russians keep saying that one day "USAs enemies will all gank it" and they will lose. Who exactly? Israel is capable of taking on the entire middle east by itself. And India will not do anything and China will definately gank Russia, before its ever gonna gank USA. So who else is left? Pretty much nobody. I dunno why they have the assumption that just because China doesnt love the US, it automatically counts that they are enemies. Russian politicians should learn from China when it comes to talking atleast. How not to like the West, yet negotiate and make deals with them without acting like drunk barbarians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 05:40:38 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 28, 2015, 05:23:56 pm
Ive been reading the commentsection of RT news for shits and giggles and it really is rather odd that pro-Russians keep saying that one day "USAs enemies will all gank it" and they will lose. Who exactly? Israel is capable of taking on the entire middle east by itself. And India will not do anything and China will definately gank Russia, before its ever gonna gank USA. So who else is left? Pretty much nobody. I dunno why they have the assumption that just because China doesnt love the US, it automatically counts that they are enemies. Russian politicians should learn from China when it comes to talking atleast. How not to like the West, yet negotiate and make deals with them without acting like drunk barbarians.


Brits if they wanna be big mega empire again. Mejico using all their immigrants in US that are actually sleeper agents or Canadick with polarbear army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 28, 2015, 06:10:22 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 05:40:38 pm

Brits if they wanna be big mega empire again. Mejico using all their immigrants in US that are actually sleeper agents or Canadick with polarbear army.

Oh... this... I already see southern states flooded by mexicans suddenly "voting independence"  :mrgreen: We have precedents obviously!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 06:17:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 28, 2015, 06:10:22 pm
Oh... this... I already see southern states flooded by mexicans suddenly "voting independence"  :mrgreen: We have precedents obviously!

Mejican sleeper agents in US = Just like Russkis in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Inb4 ISIS floods UK with immigrants and votes England into ISIS territory.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 28, 2015, 07:10:08 pm
Quote from: Torost on January 28, 2015, 03:28:34 pm
I dont make the definitions of the term child soldier. The UN does.

It shows really poor judgement on the people that sends 16-17 yo to a warzone, even recruiting them.
And can you tell me who gives a fuck about what UN does? Literally nobody. It's been a joke for ages. They can define anything how they like, it doesn't change reality.

US recruits tons of 17 year olds. There's no sudden huge leap of maturity from 16 to 18.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 08:10:03 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 28, 2015, 08:14:13 pm
Heroic bodyguard saves Putin from bouncing tits.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on January 28, 2015, 08:19:31 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 28, 2015, 07:10:08 pm
And can you tell me who gives a fuck about what UN does? Literally nobody. It's been a joke for ages. They can define anything how they like, it doesn't change reality.

US recruits tons of 17 year olds. There's no sudden huge leap of maturity from 16 to 18.

The Russian Federation and Ukraine has signed the  "Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict" https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-11-b&chapter=4&lang=en (https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-11-b&chapter=4&lang=en)

"Non-state actors and guerrilla forces are forbidden from recruiting anyone under the age of 18 for any purpose."
Unsure about Right Sector's Ukrainian Volunteer Corps, can they be called a state actor?

Legalities aside, using teenagers in an armed conflict is cruel. They lack the proper training and the mental capacities to operate in a warzone.
You put them in cause it is easy to brainwash them with propaganda, and they do as they are told. And it is cheap.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on January 28, 2015, 08:40:23 pm
Quote from: Torost on January 28, 2015, 08:19:31 pm
The Russian Federation and Ukraine has signed the  "Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict" https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-11-b&chapter=4&lang=en (https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-11-b&chapter=4&lang=en)

"Non-state actors and guerrilla forces are forbidden from recruiting anyone under the age of 18 for any purpose."
Unsure about Right Sector's Ukrainian Volunteer Corps, can they be called a state actor?

Legalities aside, using teenagers in an armed conflict is cruel. They lack the proper training and the mental capacities to operate in a warzone.
You put them in cause it is easy to brainwash them with propaganda, and they do as they are told. And it is cheap.

US recruits soldiers at 17(sometimes 16 in some areas). Not Uncommon in Countries like US or others.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 28, 2015, 08:55:22 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 28, 2015, 08:14:13 pm
Heroic bodyguard saves Putin from bouncing tits.
tits can be poisoned
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on January 28, 2015, 09:02:14 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on January 28, 2015, 08:40:23 pm
US recruits soldiers at 17(sometimes 16 in some areas). Not Uncommon in Countries like US or others.

The US recruit them into the national defence force. State Actor.
For training and preperations. They do not enter a combatzone before turning 18. And usually wait abit longer.
It might still be "legal" to send teenagers into battle if they are part of the national defenceforce. Many countries has special rules for wartime.

Right Sector's Ukrainian Volunteer Corps (armed wing of a political party, not the national defenceforce) is just scooping up teenagers with little to none training, give them the bare minimum of preperation, and then send them into a combatzone. There is a big difference.
Even if they are only recruiting them for training and preperations it is still not ok. Non-state actors and guerillias are not allowed to recruit soldiers less than 18yo.

16-17yo soldiers and younger are usally only found in 3rd world conflicts.





Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 28, 2015, 09:06:05 pm
People who confuse definitions and "agreements" with reality are funny. That crap goes out the window in real war zones. I bet Torost thinks the Geneva convention is followed religiously, too.

Meanwhile in reality, it's not any more cruel to send 16 year old teenagers to die than it is to send 18 year old teenagers to die. War isn't all sunshine, rainbows and fluffy rabbits. Whoddathunkit, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 28, 2015, 09:10:12 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 28, 2015, 08:55:22 pm
tits can be poisoned
That is a good death.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 09:42:41 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 28, 2015, 08:55:22 pm
tits can be poisoned

Translate what it says on the girls back great comrade Vovka ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on January 28, 2015, 10:06:06 pm
my russian is a but rusty, something like fuck you putin ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 28, 2015, 10:20:07 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 09:42:41 pm
Translate what it says on the girls back great comrade Vovka ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

(click to show/hide)

idi nahui putin :D

Basically : Go fuck yourself Putin
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 28, 2015, 10:30:01 pm
cyka blyat
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 28, 2015, 10:54:08 pm
Welcome to Novorossia  8-)


Note : the last guy is the colonel (colonel Oleg Kuzminykh, who previously headed a battalion of Zhytomyr 95th Separate Airmobile Brigade.) of the "cyborgs", a common ukrainian SS militia, who commited war crimes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _schizo321437 on January 28, 2015, 11:13:23 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 28, 2015, 09:10:12 pm
That is a good death.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on January 28, 2015, 11:33:47 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 28, 2015, 10:54:08 pm
Welcome to Novorossia  8-)


Note : the last guy is the colonel (colonel Oleg Kuzminykh, who previously headed a battalion of Zhytomyr 95th Separate Airmobile Brigade.) of the "cyborgs", a common ukrainian SS militia, who commited war crimes.

video of how not to treat prisoners. shamefull display. beatings, humiliation, parading them around town to let the civilians kick them around.
Makes you wonder what they do once the camera is gone.
Animals...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on January 28, 2015, 11:40:46 pm
Quote from: _schizo321437 on January 28, 2015, 11:13:23 pm
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schizo, lol, i have no idea what the correlation is between a nipple, American horror story actor, a helmet with a brits teeth, and the walking dead, but if someone could outline the illuminati triangles to help me better understand it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 28, 2015, 11:56:14 pm
Female skeletons need to wear head protection, otherwise they will turn into a zombie, and get headshotted by a crossbow.

There you go.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 28, 2015, 11:58:47 pm
Quote from: Torost on January 28, 2015, 11:33:47 pm
video of how not to treat prisoners. shamefull display. beatings, humiliation, parading them around town to let the civilians kick them around.
Makes you wonder what they do once the camera is gone.
Animals...
See... this is ... well.. you're wrong. And your mind needs some work to fix that.

First of all - if you raise your fat but off the chair and go for 500 meters - you will see worse. This somehow is supposed to excuse this behavior with captives and/or prisoners.

Second - they are SS, these here soldiers are NAZTEES of highest degree. An expert, who has bunch of undeniable proofs of the attrocities commited by these men has vouched for this. Also - he vouched for NWO involvement. Thusly - whatever behavior is applied to them - this is ok. Because reasons, mkay?

Did I help you get back on the path to the "unbrainwashed" thinking?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 12:30:14 am
These guys used to skinned alive their prisonners.... It's not exactly the same kind of treatment...

If you are such sensible, you should choose your friends wiser.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 29, 2015, 06:04:15 am
Quote from: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 12:30:14 am
These guys used to skinned alive their prisonners.... It's not exactly the same kind of treatment...

Did they really now? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 08:59:21 am
Quote from: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 12:30:14 am
These guys used to skinned alive their prisonners.... It's not exactly the same kind of treatment...

If you are such sensible, you should choose your friends wiser.
THANK YOU for keeping us informed. Truly a great read. 0/10. would read again. WHoops... forgot the 1 there... oh well, blame the NWO.

Also - an interesting (but OFC - TOTALLY PROPAGANDA, Tovi, Vovka, Don - don't read, might break down your world order  :shock: ) OpEd of The Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/opinion/thomas-friedman-czar-putins-next-moves.html?smid=fb-share
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 09:05:54 am
We gonna kick their ass, and your "NWO" too.  :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 09:25:56 am
Quote from: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 09:05:54 am
We gonna kick their ass, and your "NWO" too.  :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)
Oh yeah, this... gives you a hard on? Like... should we start looking for russian neo-naztees? Might they be good enough for your hard-on too?

ALSO - NO SS written, couldn't you find THAT at least? Its a "common" think as you said...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on January 29, 2015, 09:36:24 am
Schizo, the great upvoter. Turly he comes in times of greatest need to bless threads with his infinite wisdom.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 29, 2015, 04:14:28 pm
If Russia is an agressor and Crimea is occupied territory, why then EU and USA made special sanctions against Crimea?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 04:15:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 29, 2015, 04:14:28 pm
If Russia is an agressor and Crimea is occupied territory, why then EU and USA made special sanctions against Crimea?

Because legally its still part of Ukraine and one has to isolate it and NOT treat it as the rest of Ukraine due to russian occupation. Its that simple really.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 29, 2015, 04:33:17 pm
Quote from: Torost on January 28, 2015, 11:33:47 pm
video of how not to treat prisoners. shamefull display. beatings, humiliation, parading them around town to let the civilians kick them around.
Makes you wonder what they do once the camera is gone.
Animals...

Yeah, but was there any war where prisoners were treated differently?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 29, 2015, 04:40:41 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 29, 2015, 06:04:15 am
Did they really now? :rolleyes:

Mexican drug cartels do that when they want to intimidate people in small towns under their control. As for that happening in wars, probably not on large scale but sure some units did that. One thing I'm certain, what is shown on the video isn't exactly the worst example how to treat war prisoners. War prisoners mostly get a lot worse treatment in wars currently being fought around the globe (Africa, Middle East). Which is why I'm confused by you guys trying to make this seem like an extraordinary case of brutality. Vovka is right about something, most of you are living under glass bell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 04:58:26 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 29, 2015, 04:40:41 pm
Mexican drug cartels do that when they want to intimidate people in small towns under their control. As for that happening in wars, probably not on large scale but sure some units did that. One thing I'm certain, what is shown on the video isn't exactly the worst example how to treat war prisoners. War prisoners mostly get a lot worse treatment in wars currently being fought around the globe (Africa, Middle East). Which is why I'm confused by you guys trying to make this seem like an extraordinary case of brutality. Vovka is right about something, most of you are living under glass bell.
There is a reason, why living in the western Europe is better than in the places like Vovka, or Africa, or Middle East: being treated like crap "when walking 500m away from ones pc" is exceptions, not the norm, which is what you seem to expect. So even if it is war - I'm not sure I saw a lot of recent conflicts, where prisoners are being paraded in the town and crowd is allowed to beat them and etc.

You consider russia some random 3rd world country by culture standards? Me too. Do I find it normal? I don't. I don't understand why you would do either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 29, 2015, 05:03:31 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 29, 2015, 04:40:41 pm
Mexican drug cartels do that when they want to intimidate people in small towns under their control. As for that happening in wars, probably not on large scale but sure some units did that. One thing I'm certain, what is shown on the video isn't exactly the worst example how to treat war prisoners. War prisoners mostly get a lot worse treatment in wars currently being fought around the globe (Africa, Middle East). Which is why I'm confused by you guys trying to make this seem like an extraordinary case of brutality. Vovka is right about something, most of you are living under glass bell.

yes, and it's not only currently and in middle east and africa. In almost every war you look closer there were horrors beyond imagination, and not only committed by soldiers. And it always becomes worst when food is getting rare.

I'm not sure what your point is kuujis, but I fear that if a real war would break out on the ground of any western europe country the animals inside many here would come out pretty fast. Cultural values well and good, but once it get's ugly most people can't forget about that fast enough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 06:33:07 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 29, 2015, 05:03:31 pm
<...>
I'm not sure what your point is kuujis, but I fear that if a real war would break out on the ground of any western europe country the animals inside many here would come out pretty fast. Cultural values well and good, but once it get's ugly most people can't forget about that fast enough.
The point is that when some people tell me I'm living in a glass bell - they do not know, that at some point baltic states were kinda like Mexico: gangsters ruled the streets, the only way to transport a train of gasoline was with armored guards, etc, etc. When people say "go 500 meters and you will find worse" (thus I imply, that its a NORM for them), I call that bullshit, unless you are in a backwards country on par with russia, so called "novorussia", random african 3rd world countries, etc.

I don't need explanations, that "its war, ugly shit happens", but there is a tremendous difference between what happens in field of battle and what you do with prisoners. Ever wondered why towards the end of WW2 german soldiers were FLOWING towards west to give up to the allies and not the SU? That's the difference I talk about and the shit you see with these "novorussian" punks - its a perfect illustration.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 29, 2015, 06:36:23 pm
I wonder if a lot of Russians STILL think there are no Russina troops/equipment in Ukraine. Like a 1000000000 people have seen Russian troops going into Ukraine. I'm sure Tovi doesn't believe it though, since there's no chocolate chip cookies, NWO, or SS involved.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 29, 2015, 06:45:57 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 29, 2015, 04:40:41 pm
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Waitwa...? Lol wtf are you on about mexico and shit here? Im just tired of arguing with the dude. Ofcourse its not a bad way to threat your prisoners, i was just mocking Tovi's anti-west crusade where he's pretty much got this idea that every Ukrainian armymember at this point is Hit ler reborn and that everything that comes from Eastern media is pure gold and "truths". Wtf am I supposed to say to that? Be like Kuujis here and desperately embarass myself constantly, simply because I cant keep my internettemper down?

Tovi's some central european jackass whose never really seen the Bear and assumes its something thats completely safe to hug. If it was up to me, id let the bastard do it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 29, 2015, 09:19:40 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 29, 2015, 06:36:23 pm
I wonder if a lot of Russians STILL think there are no Russina troops/equipment in Ukraine. Like a 1000000000 people have seen Russian troops going into Ukraine. I'm sure Tovi doesn't believe it though, since there's no chocolate chip cookies, NWO, or SS involved.


Maybe if we say NWO sent Russian troops in Ukraine he will believe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 09:33:48 pm
Quote from: Kafein on January 29, 2015, 09:19:40 pm

Maybe if we say NWO sent Russian troops in Ukraine he will believe.
NWO did not SEND them there, they LURED them. And when they die - its not putlers fault then, but NWO...Because ITS A TRAP. If NWO sent them there, then putler is NWO, when in fact he is fighting agains domination NWO, so he cant be NWO.

Its obvious really...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 29, 2015, 09:43:05 pm
Quote from: Xant on January 29, 2015, 06:36:23 pm
I wonder if a lot of Russians STILL think there are no Russina troops/equipment in Ukraine. Like a 1000000000 people have seen Russian troops going into Ukraine. I'm sure Tovi doesn't believe it though, since there's no chocolate chip cookies, NWO, or SS involved.
What do you mean regular troops or volunteers?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 09:50:15 pm
Now there is these equipment. Directly delivered from GOD itself  :twisted:

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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on January 29, 2015, 09:58:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 09:50:15 pm
Now there is these equipment. Directly delivered from GOD itself  :twisted:

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(click to show/hide)

well i'll be damned! the South SHALL RISE AGAIN!!!!!!!

(click to show/hide)

clearly confederacy, the war is not over.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 10:01:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 09:50:15 pm
Now there is these equipment. Directly delivered from GOD itself  :twisted:
(click to show/hide)
For real? The only plane which was MOVING mind you, was the other one, for trainings, this one did not. IF I was making this "movie" and I could - I would make the SU-25 move, not the other toy...Granted that it DID NOT move - this "equipement"... if its going to fly any time soon - it will be from russia with love, NOT this piece of junk.

Also - Odessa punchline is reseverd for Don Nicko, don't be jelly and keep your hands to yourself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 29, 2015, 10:09:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 29, 2015, 10:01:49 pm
Also - Odessa punchline is reseverd for Don Nicko, don't be jelly and keep your hands to yourself.
Yes, it's mine. BTW people who were only arrested were people who survived and weren't killed in that house.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 29, 2015, 10:11:33 pm
The plane is refuelling. Can't you see ?

(click to show/hide)

And, yes, pilots need to train before risking their plane over the battlefield...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 29, 2015, 10:31:07 pm
Oh my fucking god, how can Tovi post this shit seriously?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on January 29, 2015, 10:34:52 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31049952
Russian planes seem to be going around Europe a lot lately. A bit older list of a bunch of incidents last year
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-incidents-involving-russian-military-and-nato-since-march-2014-9851309.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on January 30, 2015, 02:22:54 am
u do plenty of dirty things with prisoners during war time, but only the biggest retards videotape it and present it on the internetz - now i can think of two kinds - russians and mongoloids from islamic state.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 30, 2015, 02:26:11 am
And meanwhile in USA....

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 30, 2015, 08:24:46 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 30, 2015, 02:26:11 am
And meanwhile in USA....
Then he drank a couple cups of coffee and a couple of niggas killed  .07
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 09:01:10 am
Press of the "free" world  :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 30, 2015, 09:46:30 am
Quote from: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 09:01:10 am
Press of the "free" world  :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Vovkas jokes are better.

On a side note - there seems to be a bit less "russian crap-world" remaining... http://info-news.eu/possible-belarus-rebellion-in-eurasian-camp/

MADNESS! Who would not want to be part of that crap-world... MADNESS I TELL YE!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 10:52:08 am
Yes, russians are crazy, they don't want to become americans like everybody.

Even western propaganda is better. Invisible tanks crossing the border and a great evil Putin. Better than Lord of the Ring !
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 30, 2015, 11:03:43 am
Quote from: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 10:52:08 am
Yes, russians are crazy, they don't want to become americans like everybody.

Even western propaganda is better. Invisible tanks crossing the border and a great evil Putin. Better than Lord of the Ring !
Invisible tanks like for example these, that left tracks all over the border of russia-ukraine...
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/google-earth-shows-how-russians-crossed.html

Or these modern russia-only AA stufs https://twitter.com/OnlineMagazin/status/560733950768066560/photo/1

Yes Tovi, you are DEFINITELY not funny enough. Keep trying though, maybe one day  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 11:40:30 am
It may be FAN tanks crossing the border and coming back ;)


After Snowden, another symbol of Democracy is joining Russia : Greece.  :mrgreen:
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/01/27/tsirpas-complains-to-eu-for-ukraine-statement-without-consulting-greece/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 30, 2015, 11:41:40 am
Quote from: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 10:52:08 am
Yes, russians are crazy, they don't want to become americans like everybody.

Even western propaganda is better. Invisible tanks crossing the border and a great evil Putin. Better than Lord of the Ring !
A lot of countries dont want to become americans. Entire South-America, China, India, Turkey....etc. It is okay not to like the US. USA can live with that. It is not okay to use USA as an excuse to be shitty.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 11:44:46 am
Quote from: Tibe on January 30, 2015, 11:41:40 am
A lot of countries dont want to become americans. Entire South-America, China, India, Turkey....etc. It is okay not to like the US. USA can live with that. It is not okay to use USA as an excuse to be shitty.

It's not an "excuse", there is no solution to kick them out your country.
But you're right about South America, Argentina just kicked out CIA from its secret services  8-)
The whole world, except Europa and Japan, are just tired of US hegemony.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 30, 2015, 11:45:34 am
Also loving this LOTR thing. Tovi, you are basically like the Easternlings. Just because Gondor kicked the shit out of them and took their lands, they think they will live better under the rule of Sauron and orcs. Gondor really is an asshole at times, but thats no excuse to kiss ass to Sauron.

How is it not an excuse? West says:"Russia = bad". Russia replies:"But, USA is bad".  They never make the argument:"No, russia is not bad".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 30, 2015, 12:29:57 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 11:40:30 am
It may be FAN tanks crossing the border and coming back ;)


After Snowden, another symbol of Democracy is joining Russia : Greece.  :mrgreen:
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/01/27/tsirpas-complains-to-eu-for-ukraine-statement-without-consulting-greece/
Oh yes, join the long list of "russian crap-world" countries, like ... IDK - Ukraine, which was stabbed in the back by russia, Georgia, which was fucked up by russia (addmitedly - I don't remember it being called part of russian world, rather "close-abroad"), Belarus, whose leader declared "forget the russian crap-world, we are not part of it"... ALL the neighbors of russia are extremely happy to be neighboring russia. So they make military trainings "how to fight little green men". Just to be sure, that they "like" their allies  :rolleyes: In Safe way.

A bit like trying to have a child called "eurasian economic union" (or how was it called?) while wearing a condom and using pills  :wink:

When are you going to wake up? :rolleyes:

Bah... forget it, old and pointless question.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 12:30:50 pm
Everybody is bad, but only americans think they are good and that they should rule the world ( Manifest Destiny theory).

About russian weapons : Actually, Novorossia lake of ammunitions and start to buy them to Russia. But there is no proof they received weapon, like tanks, from russian government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 30, 2015, 12:33:05 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 30, 2015, 11:03:43 am
Or these modern russia-only AA stufs https://twitter.com/OnlineMagazin/status/560733950768066560/photo/1
i bet it's come from Iraq/Iran/Oman or Brasilia   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 12:34:34 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 30, 2015, 12:29:57 pm
Oh yes, join the long list of "russian crap-world" countries, like ... IDK - Ukraine, which was stabbed in the back by russia, Georgia, which was fucked up by russia (addmitedly - I don't remember it being called part of russian world, rather "close-abroad"), Belarus, whose leader declared "forget the russian crap-world, we are not part of it"... ALL the neighbors of russia are extremely happy to be neighboring russia. So they make military trainings "how to fight little green men". Just to be sure, that they "like" their allies  :rolleyes: In Safe way.

A bit like trying to have a child called "eurasian economic union" (or how was it called?) while wearing a condom and using pills  :wink:

When are you going to wake up? :rolleyes:

Bah... forget it, old and pointless question.

Greece tried the western crap economy and quit... Ukraine already lost all its gold reserve and is now in bankrupt. Europe won't help it for long time, because soon its gaz will come via Turkey gazoducs (and Greece), instead of Ukraine. Ukraine is already ruined.

Russia has quite no debt and one of the first gold reserve.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 30, 2015, 12:41:24 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 12:34:34 pm
Greece tried the western crap economy and quit... Ukraine already lost all its gold reserve and is now in bankrupt. Europe won't help it for long time, because soon its gaz will come via Turkey gazoducs (and Greece), instead of Ukraine. Ukraine is already ruined.

Russia has quite no debt and one of the first gold reserve.
Ukraine was a neighboring country of russia -> Ukraine was fucked up by russia when it tried something else , right? OK, so how does this relation converts to "Greece was supposedly fucked up  by Europe (even though Greece lied to itself, cheated and got what it asked for) -> Greece will be better off with russia, who periodically keeps fucking up its supposed "allies", which are more like "satelites" and "deserve" the punishment if they dont listen to mother russia?

Its literally jumping from a toothless wolf in a sheeps skin (a.k.a. current EU) on a drugged bear, who may fuck you up "just because reasons"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 30, 2015, 12:54:44 pm
Once again the only sensible conclusion one can draw from the last sites of this thread:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 30, 2015, 01:27:20 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 10:52:08 am
Yes, russians are crazy, they don't want to become americans like everybody.

Even western propaganda is better. Invisible tanks crossing the border and a great evil Putin. Better than Lord of the Ring !

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on January 30, 2015, 12:54:44 pm
Tovi you're so full of shit.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 30, 2015, 01:31:54 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 30, 2015, 11:45:34 am
Also loving this LOTR thing. Tovi, you are basically like the Easternlings. Just because Gondor kicked the shit out of them and took their lands, they think they will live better under the rule of Sauron and orcs. Gondor really is an asshole at times, but thats no excuse to kiss ass to Sauron.

That analogy doesn't work very well, because only Russia can be Gondor. Sauron forces would be America because they are much stronger. And Europe does kiss American asshole quite a lot, despite the Europeans in here denying it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 30, 2015, 01:53:01 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 30, 2015, 11:45:34 am
Also loving this LOTR thing. Tovi, you are basically like the Easternlings. Just because Gondor kicked the shit out of them and took their lands, they think they will live better under the rule of Sauron and orcs. Gondor really is an asshole at times, but thats no excuse to kiss ass to Sauron.

How is it not an excuse? West says:"Russia = bad". Russia replies:"But, USA is bad".  They never make the argument:"No, russia is not bad".

So China is Rohan? Or Elfs?

Then i guess ISIS are UrukHai. But who is Balrog?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 30, 2015, 02:12:04 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 30, 2015, 01:31:54 pm
That analogy doesn't work very well, because only Russia can be Gondor. Sauron forces would be America because they are much stronger. And Europe does kiss American asshole quite a lot, despite the Europeans in here denying it.
If you think about it. That doesnt work well either.  :D Fucking nerds, I wasnt planning on going to deep into it. China overpopulates everyone, America is only as good as their equip and Europe would work well as Dale or smthing, Russia would be dunland wildmen or smthing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on January 30, 2015, 02:39:41 pm
This thread... sigh.. very factual and based on logic.....

Most people that have even the slightest interest in following or reading up on armed conflicts does not have any illusions about the cruelty of war.

Does not mean you should not speak out against unnecessary cruelty and inhumane practices , just because there are worse cases out there.

The force of Adidas and Nokia astroturfing is strong in this one....

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on January 30, 2015, 06:03:08 pm
Quote from: Tovi on January 30, 2015, 12:30:50 pm
Everybody is bad, but only americans think they are good and that they should rule the world ( Manifest Destiny theory).

It's amusing how this whole argument relates so closely to mere nationalism. Your point isn't that the American model is bad, it's that it doesn't come from the country you identify yourself with. You sacrifice everything in the name of national sovereignty. Somehow Russians are better off being subjects of an independent autocrat who makes terrible decisions than accepting reality and being part of the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 30, 2015, 06:54:39 pm
American "model" is awful, even they know it but they have to accept it because there is very little they can do to change it at this point. Russian "model" doesn't really exist, Soviet model did exist but collapsed. From that point onwards in Russia and similar countries, they just exploit what they can and all that goes to the rich while the majority live subpar life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 30, 2015, 07:45:09 pm
Quote from: Leshma on January 30, 2015, 06:54:39 pm
American "model" is awful, even they know it but they have to accept it because there is very little they can do to change it at this point. Russian "model" doesn't really exist, Soviet model did exist but collapsed. From that point onwards in Russia and similar countries, they just exploit what they can and all that goes to the rich while the majority live subpar life.

"The soviet model?" Calling it a model is already giving it too much. Cities were built at utter random, burecracy was 2 times even more pointless and broken than it is today, corruption was even worse. It was definately not "from that point onwards". The Soviet Union and similar countries were about exploiting and elitism from day 1 of their exsistence. This is partially why Russia still struggles, bits and pieces of that Soviet "model" are still present in the mindset of the people.

 You make it sound like the collapse of the Union caused everyone who were under it to suddenly fill their own pockets. Which is about as wrong as an opinion can possibly get, Leshma...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 30, 2015, 08:57:14 pm
8th dan in Kyokushin and Judo and 9th dan in Taekwondo. Sounds legit!

http://enewsdashboard.com/russian-president-vadimir-putin-gets-8th-degree-black-belt-karate/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 30, 2015, 09:14:08 pm
Eh, that one was given out of 'respects' or something, iirc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 31, 2015, 12:25:57 am
Those kind of dan grades are always given out of "respect", but other people have to usually work their whole life in betterment of the art before they reach 8th dan in a single art (for example, the current head guy of the Kyokushin organization is 8th dan, same as Putin..), while Putin gets three out of nowhere. There's a video of him doing Judo and he sucks at it, I can only imagine how awful he's at the other stuff. Wouldn't be surprised if he made some deal with those Russ organizations so he gets better PR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on January 31, 2015, 08:54:01 am
Quote from: Xant on January 31, 2015, 12:25:57 am
Those kind of dan grades are always given out of "respect", but other people have to usually work their whole life in betterment of the art before they reach 8th dan in a single art (for example, the current head guy of the Kyokushin organization is 8th dan, same as Putin..), while Putin gets three out of nowhere. There's a video of him doing Judo and he sucks at it, I can only imagine how awful he's at the other stuff. Wouldn't be surprised if he made some deal with those Russ organizations so he gets better PR.
ahahah   !people have to usually work their whole life in betterment of the art before they reach 8th dan! like this guys, 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on January 31, 2015, 01:02:55 pm
Quote from: Vovka on January 31, 2015, 08:54:01 am
ahahah   !people have to usually work their whole life in betterment of the art before they reach 8th dan! like this guys, 
What is that video supposed to show?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 31, 2015, 03:03:45 pm
I dont understand it either.

I think in a real fight boxing works a lot better than people give it credit for. I mean yea, sure you dont use legs, but good boxers have very good dodgingskills and an ability to punch someone in the face properly multiple times very fast makes sure that nomatter in what shit-fu your opponent is trained in, he simply will not have time to recover fast enough to counter anything. You can shove whatever theory you like about martial arts, but in practice it has shown that only boxing works(among very few others), if you are a regular joe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 31, 2015, 04:13:46 pm
China model number 1. China will rekk USA economy and mass rape invade Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 31, 2015, 05:10:42 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 31, 2015, 04:13:46 pm
China model number 1. China will rekk USA economy and mass rape invade Russia.
Yep, IMHO China is number one. They started thier economy movement when USA, Europe and Japan made sanctions against China. Now I see that Russia after sanctions started to invest more in production. Will see what will happen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 31, 2015, 05:13:19 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 31, 2015, 04:13:46 pm
China model number 1. China will rekk USA economy and mass rape invade Russia.

china will grow larger


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 31, 2015, 05:18:13 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 31, 2015, 05:10:42 pm
Yep, IMHO China is number one. They started thier economy movement when USA, Europe and Japan made sanctions against China. Now I see that Russia after sanctions started to invest more in production. Will see what will happen.

China rapes sissy Russia, Japan, USA and Europe.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 31, 2015, 05:28:25 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on January 31, 2015, 05:18:13 pm
China rapes sissy Russia, Japan, USA and Europe.

China has biggest army, Russia has Topol-m. 2 bombs is enough to destroy all USA. Russia Has 100) Then send Chinese troops to rape who is alive
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 31, 2015, 05:35:15 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 31, 2015, 05:10:42 pm
Yep, IMHO China is number one. They started thier economy movement when USA, Europe and Japan made sanctions against China. Now I see that Russia after sanctions started to invest more in production. Will see what will happen.
Even more vodka drunkards on the street?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 31, 2015, 07:10:46 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 31, 2015, 05:10:42 pm
Yep, IMHO China is number one. They started thier economy movement when USA, Europe and Japan made sanctions against China. Now I see that Russia after sanctions started to invest more in production. Will see what will happen.
Its number one when it comes to army size and its economy is good on PAPER. Would you like to live in China as a normal citizen? Im pretty sure you wouldnt. Its basically a question if you want to be part of a massive zerghorde, or would you like to be part of a humane society? Just because the zergs build higher and more, doesnt mean their model is better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 31, 2015, 07:20:54 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 31, 2015, 07:10:46 pm
Its number one when it comes to army size and its economy is good on PAPER. Would you like to live in China as a normal citizen? Im pretty sure you wouldnt. Its basically a question if you want to be part of a massive zerghorde, or would you like to be part of a humane society? Just because the zergs build higher and more, doesnt mean their model is better.

I would. But only in Shanghai. And if you count it then Hong Kong too. Maybe Beijing
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on January 31, 2015, 07:27:03 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 31, 2015, 07:10:46 pm
Its number one when it comes to army size and its economy is good on PAPER. Would you like to live in China as a normal citizen? Im pretty sure you wouldnt. Its basically a question if you want to be part of a massive zerghorde, or would you like to be part of a humane society? Just because the zergs build higher and more, doesnt mean their model is better.
Yep, China is good enough, I've been there
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on January 31, 2015, 07:37:17 pm
Quote from: Tibe on January 31, 2015, 07:10:46 pm
Its number one when it comes to army size and its economy is good on PAPER. Would you like to live in China as a normal citizen? Im pretty sure you wouldnt. Its basically a question if you want to be part of a massive zerghorde, or would you like to be part of a humane society? Just because the zergs build higher and more, doesnt mean their model is better.

China is heavily statpadding when it comes to boosting GDP, at any cost.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on January 31, 2015, 07:59:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on January 31, 2015, 07:27:03 pm
Yep, China is good enough, I've been there
Have you really? I assume, you were some weekend tourist, taken to general places where they take all tourists. If we measured countries by that North-Korea would be paradise. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 31, 2015, 08:32:23 pm
Not to mention that the economic raise has been slowed down for quite a while now. Ain't that great over there any more.

Besides, a friend of mine worked there for 6 months a few years back. The working situation is simply put shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on January 31, 2015, 09:31:29 pm
china's mass production of socks, underwear, copycat cell phones and noodles will bring usa and their companies like apple, exxon, general motors, dell and ernst&young to their knees in no time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on January 31, 2015, 09:58:17 pm
AW YISSS!!!! Greece has spend all the money EU gave them, now they are going to spend the worthless roubles!

http://rt.com/business/227751-russia-greece-financial-aid/

How do you feel Don, Vovka? Happy to spend the rest of your "oil fund" on saving some random country?  :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/560877255404969985
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 31, 2015, 10:11:24 pm
Quote from: Christo on January 31, 2015, 07:37:17 pm
China is heavily statpadding when it comes to boosting GDP, at any cost.

GDP is statistics, doesn't show the real picture. China is a pretty brutal factory that eats people alive to survive but it is working very well. When I said that Soviet Union was way better than modern Russia, I said it because USSR was producing some goods and was advancing on many fronts, at cost of course (just like China). Modern Russia is still sacrificing its own people but it isn't going anywhere. Nothing of value came out of Russia in past 20-30 years. They just exploit natural gas and that's basically it. USSR had military advancements, space program and tried to create a differnt social system (total failure).

Why does majority of people on this forum look at social aspect of one state when it comes to evaluation? It is misleading and doesn't work well for everybody. It's easy for countries with small population like Scandinavian countries, Belgium, Netherlands and co. and others to have happy and socially secure citizens. Much harder for massive countries like USA, China, India. If we take that into account, countries with medium population like UK, Germany and France are way above those "heavens on Earth" I've previously mentioned.

To answer Kuujs to previous question: Both Ukraine and modern Russia are third world countries. Especially Ukraine, which is country currrently engulfed by civil war. It is perfectly normal to walk 500 meters from ones house and see all kind of shit in there, especially in eastern part of the country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 31, 2015, 11:09:11 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on January 31, 2015, 09:58:17 pm
AW YISSS!!!! Greece has spend all the money EU gave them, now they are going to spend the worthless roubles!

http://rt.com/business/227751-russia-greece-financial-aid/

How do you feel Don, Vovka? Happy to spend the rest of your "oil fund" on saving some random country?  :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/560877255404969985

Panos joining UIF confirmed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 01, 2015, 12:37:05 am
Is he here ?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 01, 2015, 12:52:59 am
Quote from: Kuujis on January 31, 2015, 09:58:17 pm
AW YISSS!!!! Greece has spend all the money EU gave them, now they are going to spend the worthless roubles!
http://rt.com/business/227751-russia-greece-financial-aid/
How do you feel Don, Vovka? Happy to spend the rest of your "oil fund" on saving some random country?  :mrgreen:
https://twitter.com/noclador/status/560877255404969985
pff like and your country, half of Greece bought by Russians, cheaper to buy a villa there than an apartment in Moscow  :P  so it's not Random country!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 01, 2015, 01:23:04 am

We have the same problem in France. Free speech is about to become terrorism. That's really scary.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Algarn on February 01, 2015, 01:37:48 am
Quote from: Tovi on February 01, 2015, 01:23:04 am
We have the same problem in France. Free speech is about to become terrorism. That's really scary.

Since when saying Allah akbar into a comemoration or saying that islam and america are puppet for jews that want to take over Europe should be tolerated ? Freedom of speech is debatable, like everything, but some things go too far, and deserve to be judged in a way or another, this way being official (penal code) or not (people will just tell you're a retard for saying/thinking that). Don't tell me I'm brainwashed because I don't believe into that conspiracy bullshit.

The only scary fact is that people are ready to believe ANYTHING to feel themselves enlightened compared to the rest of mankind. I barely posted here, but this was too much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 01, 2015, 06:48:35 am
Quote from: Tovi on January 28, 2015, 10:54:08 pm
Welcome to Novorossia  8-)


Note : the last guy is the colonel (colonel Oleg Kuzminykh, who previously headed a battalion of Zhytomyr 95th Separate Airmobile Brigade.) of the "cyborgs", a common ukrainian SS militia, who commited war crimes.
So, this is a video of "separatists" mistreating Ukrainian POWs, and Tovi approves of it suddenly? If it was the other way around, it'd certainly be the other way around. Or is Tovi just not understanding what happens there?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 01, 2015, 09:07:26 am
Well... whadya know... remember that lunacy about Ukrainian army being NATO legion? Turns out is true... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=932565296761831&set=a.101640449854324.3697.100000251073711&type=1&permPage=1

3..2..1..before gets reported on RT as "tru story bro" and Tovi comes in crying that "NATO SHOULD NOT BE SENDING ITS LEGIONS TO FIGHT!"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 01, 2015, 09:20:01 am
I still cant get over DonNickos claim "china is good enough, ive been there". Where the hell were you? Every person ive heard that lived in China says its horrible and with very solid facts at that. Being there as a tourist is not the same as living there. Trust me man, you are better off in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 01, 2015, 11:05:47 am
Quote from: Tibe on February 01, 2015, 09:20:01 am
I still cant get over DonNickos claim "china is good enough, ive been there". Where the hell were you? Every person ive heard that lived in China says its horrible and with very solid facts at that. Being there as a tourist is not the same as living there. Trust me man, you are better off in Russia.
It's just like russia: very nice and proud country where everyone is happy to live, BUT - if one can afford it - one moves to US/EU as soon as possible, because obviously... reasons. Like - russian oligarchs and their kids are bestest example  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 01, 2015, 11:40:04 am
Yup, I know a smart, well-educated Russian who moved to the US quite a long time ago. Nobody he knows from his time in Russia no longer lives there, they've all immigrated, the Ukraine crisis was the last straw that showed them where Putin was taking Russia. A lot of those people were politically active too, but gave up finally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 01, 2015, 11:59:04 am
Id really like to have the power to force Tovi to live in Russia, since France has been sold to the evil USA. So that he can finally be free of evil West tyranny and truly be a free man....in Russia and finally do whatever he please without fear of CIA. And DonNicko should deport to China, also to be free and be a citizen of the "#1 winning country" on Earth. If life was only that simple. Would instantly make these people shut up.

Considering its Russia, im pretty sure in many parts Tovi would just get baseballbatted in the streets just for being born in EU. Russians being tolerant people as they are.... And im pretty sure DonNicko would just never be found. China is huge and 1 persons life is worthless there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on February 01, 2015, 06:32:56 pm
Quote from: Algarn on February 01, 2015, 01:37:48 am
Since when saying Allah akbar into a comemoration or saying that islam and america are puppet for jews that want to take over Europe should be tolerated ? Freedom of speech is debatable, like everything, but some things go too far, and deserve to be judged in a way or another, this way being official (penal code) or not (people will just tell you're a retard for saying/thinking that). Don't tell me I'm brainwashed because I don't believe into that conspiracy bullshit.

The only scary fact is that people are ready to believe ANYTHING to feel themselves enlightened compared to the rest of mankind. I barely posted here, but this was too much.
Well first saying "allah akbar" at a comemoration is rather a good thing to do, as it just means "dieu est grand". And here you can see the that there is already some problem with the way media can change your view about things (like islam)...

And second, there is clearly a problem in France with the "free speech" that just stops around jews. You could say anything about anybody but if you say the exact same thing about jews then you're not tolerrated in media anymore. Dieudonne for exemple said way worse thing about pygmees than about jews (both were humor), and now he's not allowed to do any sketches about jews, but about the rest he can continue...

Even the justice system works this way, once there were a fight between arabs and jews in france, jews were condemned for violence, arabs were condemned for violence and antisemetism.

It is facts, that there is a lot of jews in the french media. But as they (jews working in media) are pro-israel, they are not helping the cause of jews in France at all. Because everytime western jews are criticizing israel, it is never shown in the media:

-In New York, one year ago, there was a massive protestation from new york's jews against israel, it has never been shown on tv.

-When for charlie hebdo, Netanyhu came to the synaguogue to talk to the france jews about them leaving France for israel.
Instead of applauding the people in the synagogue began singing the french hymne, netanyhu didnt know where to put himself while they were singing. :lol:

If those evenement are never shown, it is no wonder french arabs hate french jews for supporting israel when in fact some of them are not.

Third, I don't think free speech should have any limit, if smth is right then why should we censore it, if smth is wrong then arguments can prove it wrong.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on February 01, 2015, 06:39:19 pm
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on February 01, 2015, 06:32:56 pm
Well first saying "allah akbar" at a comemoration is rather a good thing to do, as it just means "dieu est grand"

Saying Allah Akbar might've originally been a good thing like Sieg Heil but now if you say Sieg Heil you do it for a specific, retarded reason. Both equally moronic.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 01, 2015, 08:12:03 pm
 so disgusting to see how in this topic Tovi Tibe (  :P ahah) XCunt and Kuujis  lick each other ballz  :?

 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 01, 2015, 08:38:10 pm
I hate this thread.:D

The only reason I post here is to improve my english and discussionskills. Which really have improved. A win for me anyway. Never really expected to convince anyone anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 01, 2015, 09:12:58 pm
Oh noes, NATO and IS are operating in East Ukraine. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwlMtJA0bJQ&fmt=18
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 01, 2015, 09:50:03 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 01, 2015, 08:12:03 pm
so disgusting to see how in this topic Tovi XCunt and Kuujis  lick each other ballz  :?
Sucks to be you, eh? And not only because you don't have balls, which could be licked... more like because your'e a russian  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 01, 2015, 10:07:46 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 01, 2015, 09:50:03 pm
Sucks to be you, eh? And not only because you don't have balls, which could be licked... more like because your'e a russian  :rolleyes:
nice try  :P

 https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fuapress.info%2Fuk%2Fnews%2Fshow%2F59703&edit-text=

$$$$$$$$$
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2015, 08:54:05 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 01, 2015, 08:12:03 pm
so disgusting to see how in this topic Tovi Tibe (  :P ahah) XCunt and Kuujis  lick each other ballz  :?
Even more disgusting to see Russians like yourself try to deny what Russia is doing when the entire rest of the world, plus intelligent Russians (almost an oxymoron), can see it so clearly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 02, 2015, 09:21:42 am
Quote from: Xant on February 02, 2015, 08:54:05 am
Even more disgusting to see Russians like yourself try to deny what Russia is doing when the entire rest of the world, plus intelligent Russians (almost an oxymoron), can see it so clearly.
I think Vovka and even DonNicko actually CAN see it, but the trouble is with the "having balls" part. Thats why Vovka only tries lame jokes, some random pictures and a dodge or two (which he admittedly does with a +5 on a DnD scale :) )

And you need a proper pair to tell "enough is enough, why the fuck we support this kleptocracy, which is sending our compatriots to die in an artificial war we started". Unfortunately - majority of those with a pair already left for greener pastures and only sheep material is left  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 02, 2015, 09:55:50 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 02, 2015, 09:21:42 am
I think Vovka and even DonNicko actually CAN see it, but the trouble is with the "having balls" part. Thats why Vovka only tries lame jokes, some random pictures and a dodge or two (which he admittedly does with a +5 on a DnD scale :) )

And you need a proper pair to tell "enough is enough, why the fuck we support this kleptocracy, which is sending our compatriots to die in an artificial war we started". Unfortunately - majority of those with a pair already left for greener pastures and only sheep material is left  :rolleyes:

or they just get 5 rubles for every comment they make here :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2015, 10:24:05 am
That is actually a possibility. Russia has some official groups like that, paid to argue pro-Russia stuff on foreign messageboards/comment sections of newspapers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 02, 2015, 10:25:55 am
Quote from: Xant on February 02, 2015, 10:24:05 am
That is actually a possibility. Russia has some official groups like that, paid to argue pro-Russia stuff on foreign messageboards/comment sections of newspapers.
link pls or contact  :P wanna get some free moneyz
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 02, 2015, 10:40:08 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 02, 2015, 10:25:55 am
link pls or contact  :P wanna get some free moneyz
Me too :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 02, 2015, 11:06:58 am
Situation in Debaltsevo cauldron :

(click to show/hide)

Kiev forces are about to surrender after 2 days of intense fights.


General map :

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 02, 2015, 11:26:47 am
Quote from: Tovi on February 02, 2015, 11:06:58 am
Situation in Debaltsevo cauldron :

(click to show/hide)

Kiev forces are about to surrender after 2 days of intense fights.


General map :

(click to show/hide)

Tovi, you're so pathetic. That's my impression on you (without guns though as you have no idea about anything common to military stuff)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2015, 12:11:18 pm
I love it, Tovi apparently spends craploads of time looking up Russian news about the situation, and looking at "strategic maps"... which are made up.

Or looking at "satellite pictures" of the plane that was shot down, that also turns out to be obviously fake -- then ignoring that he was proven wrong, doing it again... and all of this has been said before too, but wtf, how fucking dumb does Tovi have to be to keep doing it so many times? I'm surprised he can use a computer. Maybe he has an assistant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 02, 2015, 06:16:15 pm
Master dodgers without balls - what about this guy long years ago guessing what shit russia will be doing in Ukraine? :) Still proud to be supporting this kleptocracy of yours?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV4TSXy5d-I
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on February 02, 2015, 06:49:24 pm
If Norway would build walls around Norway to prevent the Russians from coming then Tovi would be the first one to open the gates for the Russians.


Russophile
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 02, 2015, 07:08:13 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 02, 2015, 06:16:15 pm
Master dodgers without balls - what about this guy long years ago guessing what shit russia will be doing in Ukraine? :) Still proud to be supporting this kleptocracy of yours?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV4TSXy5d-I
Dudaev? Are you kidding me?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on February 02, 2015, 07:11:36 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 02, 2015, 07:21:05 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 02, 2015, 06:16:15 pm
Master dodgers without balls - what about this guy long years ago guessing what shit russia will be doing in Ukraine? :) Still proud to be supporting this kleptocracy of yours?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV4TSXy5d-I
Several streets and places named after him...

    Ankara: Cahar Dudayev Meydanı
    İzmir: Cahar Dudayev Bulvarı
    Lemberg: Вулиця Джохара Дудаєва
    Riga: Džohara Dudajeva gatve
    Vilnius: Džocharo Dudajevo skveras
    Warschau: rondo Dudajewa
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 02, 2015, 08:44:50 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on February 02, 2015, 06:49:24 pm
If Norway would build walls around Norway to prevent the Russians from coming then Tovi would be the first one to open the gates for the Russians.

I would do it too. For anyone who want to conquer them. Just because it is Norway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 02, 2015, 10:14:02 pm
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2015, 07:21:05 pm
Several streets and places named after him...

    Ankara: Cahar Dudayev Meydanı
    İzmir: Cahar Dudayev Bulvarı
    Lemberg: Вулиця Джохара Дудаєва
    Riga: Džohara Dudajeva gatve
    Vilnius: Džocharo Dudajevo skveras
    Warschau: rondo Dudajewa

A colourful personality, to say the least, but what even DonNicko, who is being "kidded" around the clock, can't deny is that he fucking KNEW where this putler's shit-country will go next.

Also, Tovi - who are you calling naztees again?
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukraine-run-miserable-jews-rebel-chief-202600532.html#z9AHPeP
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 03, 2015, 07:04:01 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 02, 2015, 06:16:15 pm
Master dodgers without balls - what about this guy long years ago guessing what shit russia will be doing in Ukraine? :) Still proud to be supporting this kleptocracy of yours?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV4TSXy5d-I
in YouTube there are so many prophecies .... even in case of an attack of Russia on the USA using zeppelin. For any event in the world for the next 500 years is already predicting another "political scientist" inYouTube, so you just need to google suitable one
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 03, 2015, 08:55:23 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 03, 2015, 07:04:01 am
in YouTube there are so many prophecies .... even in case of an attack of Russia on the USA using zeppelin. For any event in the world for the next 500 years is already predicting another "political scientist" inYouTube, so you just need to google suitable one

Yeah, well... if you narrow the list of prophets to "heads of states" - "prophecies" suddenly become far-and-few between. But who am I to judge, keep dodging, its amusing  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 03, 2015, 01:13:53 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: NuberT on February 03, 2015, 04:38:54 pm
Uhh I wonder, if Obama was allowed to speak that out..

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 03, 2015, 04:53:23 pm
Quote from: NuberT on February 03, 2015, 04:38:54 pm
Uhh I wonder, if Obama was allowed to speak that out..

lol I thought that it was clear from the beginning, also can remember 5 billion dollars which were spend to democracy in Ukraine by USA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 03, 2015, 07:03:50 pm
i miss the point where he admits, yes we have started the protests.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 03, 2015, 07:15:49 pm
Quote from: Mala on February 03, 2015, 07:03:50 pm
i miss the point where he admits, yes we have started the protests.
You obviously need some putler-education. All dem russians "IN THE KNOW" + Tovi can vouch for that. And for those 5 billion. And for naztees... who are governed by pitiful jews... and for the magic buk... and magic russian tanks, which turn invisible when a russian looks at it...

Truly - russia is full of wonderful things shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 03, 2015, 07:26:43 pm
Yea, you might wanna rewatch the Obama video till you actually understand what he's saying instead of assuming things. -.-
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 03, 2015, 07:42:21 pm
Obama: Yanukovych then fleeing after WE had brokered a deal to TRANSITION power in Ukraine.
Also he said that Crimea is not a great strategy of Putin
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 03, 2015, 09:51:03 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 03, 2015, 07:42:21 pm
Obama: Yanukovych then fleeing after WE had brokered a deal to TRANSITION power in Ukraine.
Also he said that Crimea is not a great strategy of Putin

As far as i remember this was after russian sniper teams have turned already violent demonstrations into pure chaos ( :p proof me that i am wrong ).
At this point Yanukovych had only two options, resignation and acceptance of responsibility or the mob drags his body through the streets.
That was the brokered deal.
But then he has chosen the third option and fled to russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 03, 2015, 11:13:39 pm
Quote from: Mala on February 03, 2015, 09:51:03 pm
As far as i remember this was after russian sniper teams have turned already violent demonstrations into pure chaos ( :p proof me that i am wrong ).
At this point Yanukovych had only two options, resignation and acceptance of responsibility or the mob drags his body through the streets.
That was the brokered deal.
But then he has chosen the third option and fled to russia.
no u are wrong it was White Tights team!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 04, 2015, 12:05:15 am
prove it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 04, 2015, 01:47:46 am
Quote from: Mala on February 04, 2015, 12:05:15 am
prove it
tits 1st!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2015, 02:42:08 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 04, 2015, 04:01:40 am
This thread is so gold. It repeats itself all the time. We get retards posting videos about X admitting Y all the time, mostly from Tovi, when in fact X is saying Z, a completely different thing from Y.

Look up the definition of "broker"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 04, 2015, 07:32:30 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-is-said-to-use-oil-to-lure-russia-away-from-syrias-assad.html?_r=2

Quote from: Leshma on February 04, 2015, 02:42:08 am
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 04, 2015, 08:44:51 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 04, 2015, 07:32:30 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-is-said-to-use-oil-to-lure-russia-away-from-syrias-assad.html?_r=2
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Fuck russian websites. Full of viruses and scams. I even dumped fishki.net, when russia started this whole BS in Ukraine. FU, was good source of... stuff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 04, 2015, 09:10:27 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 04, 2015, 08:44:51 am
Fuck russian websites. Full of viruses and scams. I even dumped fishki.net, when russia started this whole BS in Ukraine. FU, was good source of... stuff.
I'm sure you're not even breathe when the wind blows from the east  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 04, 2015, 01:06:31 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 04, 2015, 09:10:27 am
I'm sure you're not even breathe when the wind blows from the east  :lol:
Pretty much :)

Especially when the weather is "described" like this ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl00HrlLQHk

(for those non-russian speaking ones - almost every second sentence talks about how Ukrainian army is being defeated, how they are using fog cover to bomb civilians intentionally and lalala... Epic weather forecast  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on February 04, 2015, 08:22:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 04, 2015, 09:10:27 am
I'm sure you're not even breathe when the wind blows from the east  :lol:

Chernobyl is still there but that is the least of the west's concerns
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on February 04, 2015, 08:25:10 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 04, 2015, 08:35:37 pm
Putin says Ukraine needs to repay a $3 billion loan because Russia needs the money to fight its financial crisis (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-ukraine-needs-repay-230048288.html)

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 04, 2015, 09:43:41 pm
As I understood they are thinking about demanding reparations from Germany for WW2, taking a stance that West-Germany did infact annex East-Germany and very agressively constantly reminding the world that they call dibs on the Arctic. Honestly, how can anyone root for a country like this is beond me. This is kindergardenlogic. It doesnt really even demand an education to realise that they are just making shit up at this point, cause they really dont have any actual solid political ground anymore, so they are just taking a counterstance in just about everything they can possibly ever have an opinion on, even when it makes almost 0 sense.

This is why Russia will never be an actual serius country. Its not because its considered evil, but things they do to act resiliant are just silly and make 0 sense, most of the time. Sure USA is evil and shady as fuck, but you cant neccesarly call their government retarded. You always assume they have a bigger plot enstored. Every time Kremlin takes a stand on something it feels like they are just overflowing with chromosomes. Clowns. None the less a giant territorial retarded kid is still dangerous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on February 04, 2015, 10:01:30 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 04, 2015, 10:58:45 pm
That koala should really wash her red face.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on February 05, 2015, 01:58:07 am
Quote from: Tibe on February 04, 2015, 09:43:41 pm

 Sure USA is evil and shady as fuck,

Fuck you very much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 05, 2015, 01:04:10 pm
Just wanted to share an interesting oppinion article:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-to-stabilize-ukraine-without-playing-gam-a-1016371.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 05, 2015, 05:21:15 pm
This whole conflict makes so little sense.

It's just horrible for Russia. Politically, internationally, monetary. Leading to isolation.

The only reason I can imagine is that Russians have began to hate the west so much, motivated by a worldview where west==all evil in the world, has all the blame for russian failings, feeling belittled in the post USSR time, and of course fueled by state propaganda.

It's good shit because this worldview explains russians failings, puts focus on an external enemy, and gives them a perceived moral right.

Russian Failings explained:

Russians believe west is just as rotten as Russia, fueled by selected horror stories from the west every day on State News. In fact, you don't have to spend a lot of time in the western system to understand it's VASTLY better in every way. Also works the other way Tovi. Go spend some time in Russia and see how utter shit the system there is.

External enemy:

NATO creeping up on Russia. Yes, and No. 1st of all NATO vs Russia war will never happen. Nukes and MAD will make sure of that. 2nd: Russia has themselves CHASED their former occupied territories into begging to join Nato. Cause they treated them really bad.

Moral Right

Because west has been a bad boy all over the world, Russia is Good. This is a basic logical fallacy. Oh, and gay's don't exist in Russia. Western disease. And Norwegian child care steals children from Russians and abuses them..

In the end though, all this functions as an excellent diversion of emotions for Russians. They get to taste the sweetness of (misdirected) revenge, and the summoning of a ghost of a former empire.

In short: Insane. Putin personally the only winner.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 06, 2015, 09:44:36 am
Tovi! spend 2 weaks in Russian and u will be the same expert on Russian as Thomek.
Post 10/10
 in the New York Times on the front page immediately!
Putin made a war to raise the rating!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 06, 2015, 09:48:38 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 06, 2015, 09:44:36 am
Tovi! spend 2 weaks in Russian and u will be the same expert on Russian as Thomek.
Post 10/10
 in the New York Times on the front page immediately!
Putin made a war to raise the rating!

Well... First and third lines are obviously attempts at irony. I would probably argue that 1 would become truth if really happened.

Third line - well - spot on. Good post! :)

Fourth - again... truth.

Very strange attempt at being funny Vovka, too much truth... Was that intentional? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 06, 2015, 03:26:00 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 06, 2015, 09:44:36 am
Tovi! spend 2 weaks in Russian and u will be the same expert on Russian as Thomek.
Post 10/10
 in the New York Times on the front page immediately!
Putin made a war to raise the rating!

Well I also have had good russian friends for more than 10 years, and people sympathetic to RF in my family..  :) 

It's not about the rating per se. In essence, it was just too painful to see Ukraine turn away. It was another nail in the coffin for the RF system and a vulnerable russian pride, just beginning to recover on the shoulders of Putin. There was probably also perceived economic consequences, in hindsight, probably minute compared to the cost of the war.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 07, 2015, 01:10:55 am
Thomek, you put too much effort in your post. Tovi's tactic is more efficient.

Step 1. Post a random youtube video:

Step 2. Say something ridiculous (if it doesn't have any conspiracy - it doesn't count):
Putin is guilty of 9/11.

Step 3. Justify/prove it with an article/picture of known and respectable persons.

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Step 4. When you're once again proven being an idiot - pretend to be a chimp, wait for a couple of days and then repeat.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 08, 2015, 12:43:54 am
So... are Azov Battalion chocolate chip cookie or not?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 08, 2015, 01:00:13 am
pretty much ... or communists. hard to tell these days.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 08, 2015, 02:01:42 am
They seem to have Wolfsangel and white painted Schwarze Sonne on their logo. Wonder why its white, better looking (contrast) or some deeper meaning?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on February 08, 2015, 06:25:54 am
A laughable performance by Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-08/lavrov-s-comedy-routine-on-ukraine-isn-t-funny-to-europe?cmpid=yhoo (http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-08/lavrov-s-comedy-routine-on-ukraine-isn-t-funny-to-europe?cmpid=yhoo)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 08:37:12 am
On February 5 there was an exchange of prisoners between the European Ukrainian army and the prorussian terrorists of Ukraine
(click to show/hide)
prisoners from awful terrorists are cured and fed, prisoners from valorous European Ukrainians are wounded from knives after tortures and beaten, one prisoner can't move his hand, because his hand was beaten with pricker many times, so all nervous terminations are damaged and he won't move his hand any more. All prisoners are ukranians
Glory to Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2015, 09:29:21 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 08:37:12 am
On February 5 there was an exchange of prisoners between the European Ukrainian army and the prorussian terrorists of Ukraine
(click to show/hide)
prisoners from awful terrorists are cured and fed, prisoners from valorous European Ukrainians are wounded from knives after tortures and beaten, one prisoner can't move his hand, because his hand was beaten with pricker many times, so all nervous terminations are damaged and he won't move his hand any more. All prisoners are ukranians
Glory to Ukraine.
Oh yes, look how well the "prorussian terrorists" treat their prisoners.

Quote from: Tovi on January 28, 2015, 10:54:08 pm
Welcome to Novorossia  8-)


Note : the last guy is the colonel (colonel Oleg Kuzminykh, who previously headed a battalion of Zhytomyr 95th Separate Airmobile Brigade.) of the "cyborgs", a common ukrainian SS militia, who commited war crimes.

And this is a fact, it's all on video. What you're saying is nothing more than unproven propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 10:14:03 am
Quote from: Xant on February 08, 2015, 09:29:21 am
Oh yes, look how well the "prorussian terrorists" treat their prisoners.

And this is a fact, it's all on video. What you're saying is nothing more than unproven propaganda.
From video Tovi gave you can see how civilians are ready to kill ukranian soldiers. About unproven propoganda even Vladimir Ruban(I think you don't even know who is he) wrote about it. But you will see only propoganda again. Didn't see that evil terrorists cut them with knives and beat to death. I just saw Givi who were very nervous after the battle(I would be the same) fed them with their flag.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 10:41:29 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 10:14:03 am
...Didn't see that evil terrorists cut them with knives and beat to death....

Exactly. Didnt SEE. And what do you expect? Ukrainians see the terrorists as russian invaders. Ofcourse they are pissed, its their homeland. In WW2 when the na zis were pushed back, the extremely angry Red Army pretty much raped, burned, plundered everything in their path. You russians of all people should know what happens when you try to invade slavs. :lol: Invader slavs arent that bad, but invaded slavs are the angriest people on earth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2015, 10:42:16 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 10:14:03 am
From video Tovi gave you can see how civilians are ready to kill ukranian soldiers. About unproven propoganda even Vladimir Ruban(I think you don't even know who is he) wrote about it. But you will see only propoganda again. Didn't see that evil terrorists cut them with knives and beat to death. I just saw Givi who were very nervous after the battle(I would be the same) fed them with their flag.
God, you're clueless. What do the civilians have to do with anything? Nice dodge, except it wasn't nice. I was talking about the treatment of these POWs.

And yes, unproven propaganda. Where is the proof? There's video proof of separatists mistreating Ukrainian soldiers, there's no proof of the opposite happening, other than words. And given how much Russia has lied about this conflict already, why the fuck should anyone take them at their word?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 11:18:39 am
Quote from: Xant on February 08, 2015, 10:42:16 am
God, you're clueless. What do the civilians have to do with anything? Nice dodge, except it wasn't nice. I was talking about the treatment of these POWs.

And yes, unproven propaganda. Where is the proof? There's video proof of separatists mistreating Ukrainian soldiers, there's no proof of the opposite happening, other than words. And given how much Russia has lied about this conflict already, why the fuck should anyone take them at their word?
I saw the treatment of prisoners, they were taken to the places where their artillery bombed to show how many damage they did and crying mothers asking to stop killing them, asking why they came to Donbass. They weren't beaten by terrorists, exept civilian terrorists. And as I said even Vladidmir Ruban accepted how wierd ukranian soldiers treat separatists. What clueles I said?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 08, 2015, 12:33:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 11:18:39 am
I saw the treatment of prisoners, they were taken to the places where their artillery bombed to show how many damage they did and crying mothers asking to stop killing them, asking why they came to Donbass. They weren't beaten by terrorists, exept civilian terrorists. And as I said even Vladidmir Ruban accepted how wierd ukranian soldiers treat separatists. What clueles I said?
And what is with the poor and helpless children?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2015, 12:54:30 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 11:18:39 am
I saw the treatment of prisoners, they were taken to the places where their artillery bombed to show how many damage they did and crying mothers asking to stop killing them, asking why they came to Donbass. They weren't beaten by terrorists, exept civilian terrorists. And as I said even Vladidmir Ruban accepted how wierd ukranian soldiers treat separatists. What clueles I said?
Wow, you Russians truly do live in your own reality.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 01:44:20 pm
They indeed, are a simple folk.
Title: Tibe and Xant lick ballz to each other
Post by: Vovka on February 08, 2015, 03:59:24 pm
again  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2015, 04:09:51 pm
So awkward when you can't get the English even "almost" right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 08, 2015, 04:44:48 pm
yes for some citizens from the colonies it's a shocking fact that you can live in the home country without knowledge of English XD
also blame google not me  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2015, 05:15:56 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 08, 2015, 04:44:48 pm
yes for some citizens from the colonies it's a shocking fact that you can live in the home country without knowledge of English XD
also blame google not me  :P
Colonies, wat?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 08, 2015, 05:20:00 pm
now i just recalled a bit unrelated story from one old shopkeeper from village of my grandparents. he said that during ww2 to his father's shop once came a member of ss and before the war ended also one russian soldier.

one guy said heil hit.ler, told what he wanted, got it, paid for it and left, while another guy vomited the floor, took what he wanted and tried to rape the shopkeeper's apprentice.

now guess ... who was who ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on February 08, 2015, 05:30:47 pm
Male or female apprentice?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 06:45:40 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on February 08, 2015, 05:20:00 pm
now i just recalled a bit unrelated story from one old shopkeeper from village of my grandparents. he said that during ww2 to his father's shop once came a member of ss and before the war ended also one russian soldier.

one guy said heil hit.ler, told what he wanted, got it, paid for it and left, while another guy vomited the floor, took what he wanted and tried to rape the shopkeeper's apprentice.

now guess ... who was who ^^
During ww2 there was such thing as Holocaust. In countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and others were a lot of сollaborators, because of that 80% of jews were killed. People in this countries betrayed Jews not to be killed instead.

now guess ... who was who ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 08, 2015, 06:49:47 pm
In URSS on the other hand, protected Jews from the chocolate chip cookie menace for to send them in Syberia amusement parks )))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 08, 2015, 06:50:29 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 08, 2015, 06:57:50 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 08, 2015, 06:49:47 pm
In URSS on the other hand, protected Jews from the chocolate chip cookie menace for to send them in Syberia amusement parks )))

well i did read some jewish history books and from what i understood commies treated jews very well compared to how the general situation and feelings were. it basicly didnt matter who you were as long as you were a commie - extremely simply said. yet during 20s russia saw many pogroms that initiated a phase where many russian jews fled to palestine. the jewish hate was just so strong in minds of regular russians so nobody could really do anything about it, still if anybody tried to fight it, it were "the commies".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 08, 2015, 07:02:34 pm
even more stories from the past, this one is from my grandmother from selisia.
the war did not go so well, so they had to flee from the "hordes of the east".
and their polish forced labourers were on the run as well, because they feared their soviet liberators more than their german oppressors.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 07:09:20 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 08, 2015, 06:49:47 pm
In URSS on the other hand, protected Jews from the chocolate chip cookie menace for to send them in Syberia amusement parks )))
What about 501 thousands of Jews fighting on the USSR side? Or you think they were fighting in Syberia?
Stalin was the same as einstein, but I don't like nations who will suck a dick to feel their asses comfortable
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 08, 2015, 07:13:14 pm
Obviously there were no Russian collaborators for the chocolate chip cookies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 07:36:13 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 08, 2015, 07:13:14 pm
Obviously there were no Russian collaborators for the chocolate chip cookies.
There were, but not the most nation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 08, 2015, 07:47:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 07:36:13 pm
There were, but not the most nation
And in baltics it was. True story.  Heard it on RT. Right after story of zombie plane. Or did you read that in the recently "corrected" history books? :)

Fuck you? :)

Get your shit together, then go about pointing fingers. Germany faced their naztee past and got over it, got stronger after overcoming it. russia? russia cant face its shit, so it calls everyone else shit and when you touch anything - it has mostly turned to shit.

You want to know why you are still relevant? Because your great ancestors didn't have enough time to sell the rest of Siberia to US, like they did with Alaska. Unfortunately for you neighbors - there is gas in Siberia, which is needed by others. Thats it. There is nothing else russia can offer now for the rest of the world, except its alternate "russian world" reality full of bullshit. Please, keep it for yourself.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 08:01:44 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 06:45:40 pm
During ww2 there was such thing as Holocaust. In countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and others were a lot of сollaborators, because of that 80% of jews were killed. People in this countries betrayed Jews not to be killed instead.

now guess ... who was who ^^
Yea, thats what your propagandahistory claims. None of it is actually true. The na zis were dicks to jews, too everyone else they were relatively decent. Red army was dicks to everybody. Burned, looted and raped everything. This is all documented and true.  And 80%? Where the fuck did you read that horseshit? No offence Nicko, but your russian books have been more than proven to be wrong a lot, so its kinda impossible to believe them. In some cases your history sticks sw astikas on groups of people who never were na zis, but just common people, who the USSR just didnt like and murdered. Russian historians only get payed in russia, everywhere else their "knowledge" is garbage.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 08, 2015, 08:06:36 pm
Yeah, Russian history is 100% unreliable. For decades and decades, they claimed that Finland started the Winter War with random artillery shelling of Russia. Russian history is full of "facts" like that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 08:41:20 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 08:01:44 pm
Yea, thats what your propagandahistory claims. None of it is actually true. The na zis were dicks to jews, too everyone else they were relatively decent. Red army was dicks to everybody. Burned, looted and raped everything. This is all documented and true.  And 80%? Where the fuck did you read that horseshit? No offence Nicko, but your russian books have been more than proven to be wrong a lot, so its kinda impossible to believe them. In some cases your history sticks sw astikas on groups of people who never were na zis, but just common people, who the USSR just didnt like and murdered. Russian historians only get payed in russia, everywhere else their "knowledge" is garbage.
There is nothing in official books, this is not what is teaching in the schools, before ukranian crysis, I thought that we are in good relationship with baltic countries and others, then I learnt that they hate us. I learnt from the school that Stalin was bad as H itler, because he killed a lot of people and send a lot to the Syberia. And about collaborants in baltic countries I heard first from jewish general who lives in Israel. He said that baltic countries helped to kill jews and now try to write a history without this facts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 08:51:29 pm
Not even books man. The understanding about WW2 to most of us has come from survivors. Odd that i nor anyone else in my family ever heard that fact from grandgrandparents. Doesnt really sound like something they would leave out...just because it was bad. They generally talked about everything, wether good or evil. Also im having hard time believing an israeli general. In many ways the israelis are extremely....emotional people who hold serius grudges over very little things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 08, 2015, 09:19:19 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 08:51:29 pm
Not even books man. The understanding about WW2 to most of us has come from survivors. Odd that i nor anyone else in my family ever heard that fact from grandgrandparents. Doesnt really sound like something they would leave out...just because it was bad. They generally talked about everything, wether good or evil. Also im having hard time believing an israeli general. In many ways the israelis are extremely....emotional people who hold serius grudges over very little things.
My understanding is also from my grandfather, many of my relatives were killed during WW2, or maybe you have understanding like prime-minister of Ukraine Yatsenyuk, and you would say that USSR atacked Germany. If you want to say that USSR made many evil things, then I know it. And when I show the evil from the other side, you try to say that I'm brainwashed. It is stupid to see only one side. Now I say that Donetsk are shelled everyday and just today 8 civilians were killed in the center of Donetsk by shelling. And Europe chooses to keep silense. And wjen I show what Donbass people think in reallity, you say that I and this people are brainwashed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 08, 2015, 09:29:30 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 08:01:44 pm
Yea, thats what your propagandahistory claims. None of it is actually true. The na zis were dicks to jews, too everyone else they were relatively decent. Red army was dicks to everybody. Burned, looted and raped everything. This is all documented and true.  And 80%? Where the fuck did you read that horseshit? No offence Nicko, but your russian books have been more than proven to be wrong a lot, so its kinda impossible to believe them. In some cases your history sticks sw astikas on groups of people who never were na zis, but just common people, who the USSR just didnt like and murdered. Russian historians only get payed in russia, everywhere else their "knowledge" is garbage.

Well, ok now that we are on the past, Nicko has a point. The Baltics states, and many other countries handed over, and even helped killing off Jews. I.ex Norwegian police handed them over to be shipped off to Poland..  I also know some horror stories from Lithuania and Poland..

Now though, keep in mind that this all happened in a context where germans were seen as some kind of liberators. And anti-semittism was widespread in the whole of europe, and even US at the time. The germans just took those emotions way further than anyone else. As a consequence, as to not to confuse the post-war generation, that part of history is easily forgotten by the victors.

"The na zis were dicks to jews, too everyone else they were relatively decent."

Not really, no. From the very beginning of the war in the east they were merciless and brutal. For example, after the attack on the polish post office in Danzig they executed 38 prisoners.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Polish_Post_Office_in_Danzig)

I really can't stand the idea that the chocolate chip cookies weren't so bad. Cause they were really really really bad. Much worse than anyone else, even though they all did horrible things. Let's say: The chocolate chip cookies were especially inhuman, a special case.

Now then:  The chocolate chip cookies in Ukraine are not the chocolate chip cookies of wwii. In Ukraine they would not exist if it were not for the idea that Russia has been abusing/holding back Ukraine in the post USSR time. Their existence is a reaction to Russia's actions.

Their style and philosophy convenient, to rally poor, stupid hooligans for the cause: A free Ukraine.  (Just like the chocolate chip cookies in Russia find a home, meaning, brotherhood and manliness, not so easily displayed with no money.)

They have power in Ukraine, because their subculture fought the hardest on Maidan, and stayed there afterwards. The new government had no choice, as there were no police to hold them back. Besides they are useful as non-corrupted troops, that will not leak everything to the RF.

Once Ukraine stabilizes they will again disappear and be marginalized.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 08, 2015, 10:48:13 pm
The Baltic States handed over jews and helped in the Holocaust? Citations, please.

It has been fashionable for Russian 'historians' to call Baltics fascist since WW2. First, the nationalistic and autocratic pre-WW2 government in Latvia, for example, then the sizable SS Volunteer legion, that formed here, both they have been ceaselessly labeling as totally fascist (guess it was extremely important for SU propaganda machine to smear any resistance as evil), whilst neither of these things had anything to do with that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 08, 2015, 10:55:44 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 08, 2015, 10:48:13 pm
The Baltic States handed over jews and helped in the Holocaust? Citations, please.

It has been fashionable for Russian 'historians' to call Baltics fascist since WW2. First, the nationalistic and autocratic pre-WW2 government in Latvia, for example, then the sizable SS Volunteer legion, that formed here, both they have been ceaselessly labeling as totally fascist (guess it was extremely important for SU propaganda machine to smear any resistance as evil), whilst neither of these things had anything to do with that.





- I wonder what thought Estonian President about the threat from Russia?
- ...
- Fuck it let's look at the weather for tomorrow XD

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on February 08, 2015, 11:57:59 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 08, 2015, 08:01:44 pm
The na zis were dicks to jews, too everyone else they were relatively decent. Red army was dicks to everybody. Burned, looted and raped everything. This is all documented and true.

just no. All kinds of nations, sinti & roma, homesexuals, enemies of state and many others were worked and hungered to death by the hundreds of thousands in concentrations camps. You cannot imagine the horrors. The biggest difference to jews is that those would be sent to death camps immediately and the sheer number of jews compared to other groups. Also the Wehrmacht plus the Polizeibataillone im Hinterland where anything but 'relatively decent' to anyone.

Quote from: Thomek on February 08, 2015, 09:29:30 pm
I really can't stand the idea that the chocolate chip cookies weren't so bad. Cause they were really really really bad. Much worse than anyone else, even though they all did horrible things. Let's say: The chocolate chip cookies were especially inhuman, a special case.

Very difficult and interesting what makes the na zi case so special. In short I'd say the meticulously planned and realized method of killing insane high numbers of humans the most efficient way and the high numbers of people that connived, arranged and partook with the whole system without really being a na zi.

Does anybody know a number of resistance during Stalin-regime? Ullrich Herbert claims there have been about 2-3% per cent of population in active resistance in na zi germany, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on February 09, 2015, 12:02:30 am
Donetsk...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 09, 2015, 12:16:07 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on February 08, 2015, 11:57:59 pm
just no. All kinds of nations, sinti & roma, homesexuals, enemies of state and many others were worked and hungered to death by the hundreds of thousands in concentrations camps.

Indeed. chocolate chip cookie regime had a vision of the perfect man and anyone who didn't fit was being discarded one way or another.

From what I know, Stalin's regime (him and people who out of fear followed his commands) killed everybody who opposed them. It wasn't about perfect man, it wasn't carefully planned. Therefore not a genocide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 09, 2015, 12:22:21 am
Quote from: _RXN_ on February 09, 2015, 12:02:30 am
Donetsk...

I wonder if Ukrainians finally found a proper target for their short range ballistic missiles. Also - fuck missiles, need to start up a window manufacturing plant! There will be a marked for that it seems  :?

Quote from: [ptx] on February 08, 2015, 10:48:13 pm
The Baltic States handed over jews and helped in the Holocaust? Citations, please.

It has been fashionable for Russian 'historians' to call Baltics fascist since WW2. First, the nationalistic and autocratic pre-WW2 government in Latvia, for example, then the sizable SS Volunteer legion, that formed here, both they have been ceaselessly labeling as totally fascist (guess it was extremely important for SU propaganda machine to smear any resistance as evil), whilst neither of these things had anything to do with that.
You know - re citations - baltis definitely don't have the best track record when it comes to jew treatment during WW2. So its not black and white. One has to accept it and learn from it.

What I don't like and call bullshit on is the fact, that not much love was given to the "great savior" SU and its repressions. Resistance to it is being treated as being pro-naztee, which IS bullshit of russian degree.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 09, 2015, 12:44:47 am
Well the whole "Great Patriotic War" thing is ridiculous to begin with.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 09, 2015, 12:58:30 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 09, 2015, 12:22:21 am
I wonder if Ukrainians finally found a proper target for their short range ballistic missiles. Also - fuck missiles, need to start up a window manufacturing plant! There will be a marked for that it seems  :?
You know - re citations - baltis definitely don't have the best track record when it comes to jew treatment during WW2. So its not black and white. One has to accept it and learn from it.

What I don't like and call bullshit on is the fact, that not much love was given to the "great savior" SU and its repressions. Resistance to it is being treated as being pro-naztee, which IS bullshit of russian degree.
There were, of course, collaborators among the Balts, just like anywhere else. I am yet to see any proof that Baltic nations were worse than others. What Thomek claimed though, is collaboration of the Baltic states as such, which ceased to function after WW2 started.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 09, 2015, 03:47:56 am
Well Lithuania was probably worse than others:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Lithuania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Lithuania)

Anyway. This is a digression gone too far already..

IMO it's clear:

Russian propaganda is shouting out about russophobia and naz is, while there are more neo-naz is in Russia than anywhere else. (Something pretty insane, considering what nazis thought about Russians..)

Whatever. The reasons for Neonaz ism in eastern europe, and in the world, are the same as any subculture of the violent sort: From bikers in america to polish or british hooligans to norwegian black metal to romanian and italian goths to radical punks, to young islamists, or even many people in many armies all over.

It's a culture with simple, clear answers, with a bad boy image, being feared/respected, brotherhood. This is especially powerful for people who don't have a future, or no means to develop, get rich, or display their manliness otherwise. In Ukraine they happened to find a scene where they could fight for an actual cause. They fought and won, and made sure they could not be ignored by the new government.

That's all. No one is out to GET or Take russia. No neonaz is have real political power in europe. Most europeans simply want to live in peace, and have moderate capitalism, they want to get rid of corruption, and they don't like it when old superpowers invades Ukraine, who seems to want the same as them. Russohpobia, Naz is: Just BS packaged and sold to the Russian people so they will support the meaningless war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 09, 2015, 09:23:48 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on February 08, 2015, 11:57:59 pm
[...] Also the Wehrmacht plus the Polizeibataillone im Hinterland where anything but 'relatively decent' to anyone.
[...]
I don't like the generalization in this context. The Wehrmacht had overall from 35 to 45 something around 18 million active soldiers. The huge majority of those were relatively decent in their conduct during war.
There were nonetheless special units which had to sole goal to harass and spread terror. Still, saying "the Wehrmacht" weren't decent people is factual wrong when you talk about the whole of it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 09, 2015, 09:35:13 am
Sadly - no english subtitles, but lets play a game: GUESS WHO is a journalist of one of few remaining oposition news sources in russia and what she does not get a chance to talk about!  :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZVHRYGQB-I
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 09, 2015, 10:17:06 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 09, 2015, 09:35:13 am
Sadly - no english subtitles, but lets play a game: GUESS WHO is a journalist of one of few remaining oposition news sources in russia and what she does not get a chance to talk about!  :rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZVHRYGQB-I
Ksenia journalist?!!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 09, 2015, 10:37:15 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 09, 2015, 10:17:06 am
Ksenia journalist?!!
(click to show/hide)
And this most likely is THE "journalist" by your definition, so yeah, thanks :)
https://www.youtube.com/user/gwplondon
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 09, 2015, 10:42:27 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 09, 2015, 10:37:15 am
And this most likely is THE "journalist" by your definition, so yeah, thanks :)
https://www.youtube.com/user/gwplondon
Ksenia journalist!!
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 09, 2015, 08:31:41 pm
Guys, I'm confused. Why is Putin negotiating with Ukraine about a possible truce when Russia has nothing to do with the crisis, RT and Tovi told me so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 09, 2015, 08:51:28 pm
Because he saw what Clinton/Bush/Obama did in the past.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 12:04:55 am
Quote from: Xant on February 09, 2015, 08:31:41 pm
Guys, I'm confused. Why is Putin negotiating with Ukraine about a possible truce when Russia has nothing to do with the crisis, RT and Tovi told me so.

This is 2nd biggest question in the known universe right after who killed JFK.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 10, 2015, 12:07:04 am
Quote from: Leshma on February 09, 2015, 08:51:28 pm
Because he saw what Clinton/Bush/Obama did in the past.

Clinton/Bush/Obama did that because they saw what Stalin/einstein did.
Stalin/einstein did that because they saw that saying #nohomo didn't work.

How is it even relevant?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 10, 2015, 01:00:05 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 10, 2015, 12:07:04 am
Clinton/Bush/Obama did that because they saw what Stalin/einstein did.
Stalin/einstein did that because they saw that saying #nohomo didn't work.

How is it even relevant?
No one knows, Leshma made even less sense than usual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 10, 2015, 02:06:27 am
It is relevant because Putin is acting as "peacekeeper", even though he has huge responsibly for what is happening in URK. American tactics, they did it many times in the past.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 08:19:32 am
Quote from: Xant on February 09, 2015, 08:31:41 pm
Guys, I'm confused. Why is Putin negotiating with Ukraine about a possible truce when Russia has nothing to do with the crisis, RT and Tovi told me so.
Kiev does not negotiate directly with the DNR as in this case they recognize indirectly they as a  something more then just a terrorists. So Russia mediates between Kiev and DNR.
Dat situation for Kiev is profitable. because Not far people immediately think that the Russian side in the conflict  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 10, 2015, 08:35:12 am
Quote from: Leshma on February 10, 2015, 02:06:27 am
It is relevant because Putin is acting as "peacekeeper", even though he has huge responsibly for what is happening in URK. American tactics, they did it many times in the past.

That's a fail logic, I think that we discussed it here even more times than saying that Tovi is an idiot. How can it justify his actions? It could only be discussable if Russia did it to USA.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 10, 2015, 08:42:39 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 08:19:32 am
Kiev does not negotiate directly with the DNR as in this case they recognize indirectly they as a  something more then just a terrorists. So Russia mediates between Kiev and DNR.
Dat situation for Kiev is profitable. because Not far people immediately think that the Russian side in the conflict  :P

Suppose you have a thug beating the crap out of you, because "<artificial reasons>", and there is a sadist mafia boss behind the thug, who HAS imaginary reasons for beating the crap out of you. You are currently wondering, why is it not worth to discuss the resolution of imaginary reasons and instead find some pseudo bullshit, which would support the "<artificial reasons>".

Were you paid to express this "opinion"? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 09:41:42 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 10, 2015, 08:42:39 am
Suppose you have a thug beating the crap out of you, because "<artificial reasons>", and there is a sadist mafia boss behind the thug, who HAS imaginary reasons for beating the crap out of you. You are currently wondering, why is it not worth to discuss the resolution of imaginary reasons and instead find some pseudo bullshit, which would support the "<artificial reasons>".
Were you paid to express this "opinion"? :)
Pay to little clerk and he will come up with the best how to deal with the head boss  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 10:23:25 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 10, 2015, 08:35:12 am
That's a fail logic, I think that we discussed it here even more times than saying that Tovi is an idiot. How can it justify his actions? It could only be discussable if Russia did it to USA.
Maybe they made it to USA, because if Russia wouldn't do so, Ukraine would be totally under controll by USA. Well my opinion is the same from the beginning, that this is geopolitical game between Russia and USA.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 11:37:42 am
Quote from: [ptx] on February 08, 2015, 10:48:13 pm
The Baltic States handed over jews and helped in the Holocaust? Citations, please.
It has been fashionable for Russian 'historians' to call Baltics fascist since WW2. First, the nationalistic and autocratic pre-WW2 government in Latvia, for example, then the sizable SS Volunteer legion, that formed here, both they have been ceaselessly labeling as totally fascist (guess it was extremely important for SU propaganda machine to smear any resistance as evil), whilst neither of these things had anything to do with that.
http://rt.com/news/230555-estonia-holocaust-museum-exhibition/  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 10, 2015, 11:59:58 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 10, 2015, 08:35:12 am
That's a fail logic, I think that we discussed it here even more times than saying that Tovi is an idiot. How can it justify his actions? It could only be discussable if Russia did it to USA.

You're the only one who sees it as attempt to justify Putin's actions. You can't let go "us vs them" philosophy, which is understandable because you live in a country which is being harassed by Russia. Not everyone in this thread are Russians, Tovi and those against Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 12:00:41 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 10:23:25 am
Maybe they made it to USA, because if Russia wouldn't do so, Ukraine would be totally under controll by USA. Well my opinion is the same from the beginning, that this is geopolitical game between Russia and USA.

its no game, there are just some countries that want better life and they look for it where they can get it (eu). but their old father just doesn't want to let them go so he punishes them the moment they try to sign eu association treaty.

just open your eyes. why nobody wants to be friend with you except for countries like kazachstan, north korea, uzbekistan and some territories aka osetia and similar shitte? even old geezer lukashenko wants to say bye bye. why? because you have nothing to offer for regular people, except for the corrupt system filled with oligarchs, state governed media and strong army.

the other two countries i can think of that maybe want to shake hands with your are greece and serbia - both only because they suffer or suffered great problems and evils that they wanted to cure by signing with lesser evil (you). even finland signed treaty with naz.is. when sbdy is pushed really hard, even crazy things (aka being friend with russia) can not look that bad for time being. but when that time is over, they will gladly tell you good bye.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 12:08:40 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 12:00:41 pm
its no game, there are just some countries that want better life and they look for it where they can get it (eu). but their old father just doesn't want to let them go so he punishes them the moment they try to sign eu association treaty.

just open your eyes. why nobody wants to be friend with you except for countries like kazachstan, north korea, uzbekistan and some territories aka osetia and similar shitte? even old geezer lukashenko wants to say bye bye. why? because you have nothing to offer for regular people, except for the corrupt system filled with oligarchs, state governed media and strong army.

the other two countries i can think of that maybe want to shake hands with your are greece and serbia - both only because they suffer or suffered great problems and evils that they wanted to cure by signing with lesser evil (you). even finland signed treaty with naz.is. when sbdy is pushed really hard, even crazy things (aka being friend with russia) can not look that bad for time being. but when that time is over, they will gladly tell you good bye.

(click to show/hide)

 
It's so cute that you still believe that the government act on the basis of the needs of regular people ) I have bad news for you,
(click to show/hide)
also if you think that the EU has lost money credited greece you're an idiot. Under any credit obligations banks may issue more loans. so that as soon as Greece will refuse to pay their  debts, htere will be appear a new donor country in the European Union  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 10, 2015, 12:10:23 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 12:00:41 pm
the other two countries i can think of that maybe want to shake hands with your are greece and serbia - both only because they suffer or suffered great problems and evils that they wanted to cure by signing with lesser evil (you).

Countries like Serbia, Greece and Hungary are trying to be smart and get something out of this situation by blackmailing EU saying how they will turn to Russia unless EU give them better conditions. Doesn't work very well but they are still trying. Also both Serbia and now devastated Greece are in way better shape than Ukraine ever was since fall of USSR. They are much smaller countries, but have you checked average wage in those countries and average wage in UKR? Only thing UKR had were lower prices due to partnership with Russia, because they supplied them with many things. But Russia exploited them more than it gave.

Do you think that after this all is gone, UKR is magically going to create jobs out of nothing, raise the wages to 1000 euro level and join EU in less than 10 years? Most countries that were in similar shape received billions of loans and still didn't fix their economy, including the big ones like Spain and Italy. There is no money to fund anyone's economy anymore, much less Ukraine's. They are on their own, from now on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 12:27:05 pm
http://rusvesna.su/english/1423553706
hah  :P

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 12:46:32 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 10, 2015, 12:10:23 pm
Countries like Serbia, Greece and Hungary are trying to be smart and get something out of this situation by blackmailing EU saying how they will turn to Russia unless EU give them better conditions. Doesn't work very well but they are still trying. Also both Serbia and now devastated Greece are in way better shape than Ukraine ever was since fall of USSR. They are much smaller countries, but have you checked average wage in those countries and average wage in UKR? Only thing UKR had were lower prices due to partnership with Russia, because they supplied them with many things. But Russia exploited them more than it gave.

Do you think that after this all is gone, UKR is magically going to create jobs out of nothing, raise the wages to 1000 euro level and join EU in less than 10 years? Most countries that were in similar shape received billions of loans and still didn't fix their economy, including the big ones like Spain and Italy. There is no money to fund anyone's economy anymore, much less Ukraine's. They are on their own, from now on.

ukr is more fucked up than greece and serbia combined (even more fucked than russia in some ways - economic ones), but association treaty would be 1st step in the right direction. still many more steps would have to follow and it would last like two or three of decades to make things better there. but they could slowly manage - russian bro didn't want them to do so though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 12:49:09 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 12:08:40 pm

It's so cute that you still believe that the government act on the basis of the needs of regular people ) I have bad news for you,
(click to show/hide)
also if you think that the EU has lost money credited greece you're an idiot. Under any credit obligations banks may issue more loans. so that as soon as Greece will refuse to pay their  debts, htere will be appear a new donor country in the European Union  :P

really, how much do you get for writing comments?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 10, 2015, 01:50:18 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 12:46:32 pm
ukr is more fucked up than greece and serbia combined (even more fucked than russia in some ways - economic ones), but association treaty would be 1st step in the right direction. still many more steps would have to follow and it would last like two or three of decades to make things better there. but they could slowly manage - russian bro didn't want them to do so though.

Money was the reason why many former eastern block countries joined EU. Where is the money for revival of Ukraine? They are huge country with 45 million souls. They need hundreds of millions of euros, just to get on their feet. Who has that kind of money? Germany probably think Greece and others will pay the debt so they can help Ukraine. Good luck with that.

By available data on internet, average salary in Ukraine is around 3300 of their money which translates to ~120 euros. With 120 euros in any "developed" and "developing" EU country you can wipe your ass off and nothing else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 10, 2015, 02:58:52 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 10, 2015, 01:50:18 pm
Money was the reason why many former eastern block countries joined EU. Where is the money for revival of Ukraine? They are huge country with 45 million souls. They need hundreds of millions of euros, just to get on their feet. Who has that kind of money? Germany probably think Greece and others will pay the debt so they can help Ukraine. Good luck with that.

By available data on internet, average salary in Ukraine is around 3300 of their money which translates to ~120 euros. With 120 euros in any "developed" and "developing" EU country you can wipe your ass off and nothing else.

if you (lets say germany) invest money somewhere (lets say ukraine) its not like those money are completely wasted. german companies/industry/banks/..... will settle in ukraine and will eventually generate profit there. this is how it works, i can see it on my country where major banks are foreign ones, the biggest industrial company is german etc. is it a good way or a bad way? well its neither, its just how it is. but if our companies would be run by our businessmen we'd (as people) be doing far worse. so i kinda accept it as it is. btw association treaty is only 1st step, it would take couple of years until ukraine would be fully accepted into eu.

if you don't know if the greek dept will be paid i can tell you for sure that it will be paid. do you know why? because all depts are always paid in full and there always has to be somebody who pays for it, being the one who borrowed, lended money or somebody completely "innocent" that just happened to have money when he was around. and i can even tell you who will pay the dept.

- for sure its not going to be paid by that southern nation with their sickening work ethics that makes them drink frappe 8 hours/day while they spend the other 8 other hours dreaming about communism and blaming merkel for their misery.
- for sure its also not going to be paid by german or french banks, because their claims were in big majority already paid in previous years
- and now try to guess who will pay it....
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 05:14:17 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 11:37:42 am
http://rt.com/news/230555-estonia-holocaust-museum-exhibition/  :lol:
Yes :lol:

Typical RT nowadays :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 10, 2015, 05:18:50 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 06:29:02 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 05:14:17 pm
Yes :lol:
Typical RT nowadays :lol:
we have guy who will stab u in back with a knife in 1st day of Russo-Baltic war XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 06:45:33 pm
Yeah, i'll keep an eye out for random fatty lithuanians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 10, 2015, 06:50:01 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 10, 2015, 11:37:42 am
http://rt.com/news/230555-estonia-holocaust-museum-exhibition/  :lol:
Wow, thats in my town. And once again, load of horseshit. Havent really heard any uproars or criticism or riots or anything. And in a town this small, you hear EVERYTHING. Didnt even know this museum exsisted tbh, let alone that it had massive riotlike critizism, like RT likes to make you believe. This is just propaganda again.

The wierd part is that its always the russian government that tries mostly to throw a wedge between balts and russians. Not so much EU, americans or Baltics themselves. They constantly make it sound like we are some pro-na zi anti-russian nation. But our na zism doesnt really even exsist on personal levels, let alone government levels. Its how we handle its history, that can be used as offence against us. And we dont really hate russians, we hate Russia. Infact most russians living here that have given interviews say that they dont know what the fuck Eastern media is talking about. That we are not some babykilling fascist balts, who like to torment poor russian minorities. So it is really really odd when someone(like Tovi) says that we dont like Russia because the West told us to. Nope. We dont like Russia because of what the East is telling us and is talking about us.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 07:21:04 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 10, 2015, 06:50:01 pm
We dont like Russia because of what the East is telling us and is talking about us.
I thought you don't like Russia because West said to you what East is talking about you. I really learnt about that you hate Russia only from this forum.) Before I never heard from our news something bad about your countries, about USA bombings yes. About baltic countries I saw only this
(click to show/hide)
And this how we react
(click to show/hide)
So for you it can be laughable, for us it is not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 10, 2015, 07:52:21 pm
Why would the West tell us? You live right next to us. Your own politicians are saying shit right into our faces. What the fuck does the West have to do with anything? You constantly break our airspace, ban our exports, with extremely stupid explanations, say that russians are being treated like slaves in some parts, when they arent, call us dogs who should be annexed. All the reasons we dont like Russia, are directly from Russian politicians mouths. Noone elses. No nato, no USA, no EU. Only Russian politicians.

And we can do whatever the hell we want with those monuments. Red army was filled with murderers and rapists, just having those monuments makes us feel that way too:
(click to show/hide)
We have little tolerance for USSR and Red army. And for very good reasons. You can say that the Red army saved us, mybe they did, but they also tried to destroy us. So ofcourse we laugh or hate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 09:02:57 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 10, 2015, 07:52:21 pm
Why would the West tell us? You live right next to us. Your own politicians are saying shit right into our faces. What the fuck does the West have to do with anything? You constantly break our airspace, ban our exports, with extremely stupid explanations, say that russians are being treated like slaves in some parts, when they arent, call us dogs who should be annexed. All the reasons we dont like Russia, are directly from Russian politicians mouths. Noone elses. No nato, no USA, no EU. Only Russian politicians.

And we can do whatever the hell we want with those monuments. Red army was filled with murderers and rapists, just having those monuments makes us feel that way too:
(click to show/hide)
We have little tolerance for USSR and Red army. And for very good reasons. You can say that the Red army saved us, mybe they did, but they also tried to destroy us. So ofcourse we laugh or hate.
Never heard this from evil number one Putin, maybe some politicans say it, never heard it, maybe our clown Zhirinovskiy can say this, nobody cares about him, I think your propoganda works well. But when you laugh about 25 mln people who were killed during WW2 in Russia, because this monument means this for us, it makes me angry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:20:03 pm
If you think the Soviet monuments in Occupied countries were built to commemorate those people...  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 09:29:03 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:20:03 pm
If you think the Soviet monuments in Occupied countries were built to commemorate those people...  :lol:
So according to your logic, if this countries were occupied, then they were Na zi and were glad to be part of Germany. Well maybe you learnt it in your school. As I know Soviet army tried to win a war against Germany. So maybe they freed those countries(I don't talk about people who raped women and rob everything they saw). Or maybe you have another opinion about what monuments are used for. For me monuments are built to commemorate smth or smb.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:37:38 pm
Pretty much nothing of what you just wrote made any sense.

Anyways, you really have no idea, if you think that the SU did at any point honor the memory of those millions that fought and died for it. It didn't, the monstrous regime only used these deaths to further it's own goals. I know of no other state of the developed world, that has treated it's own dead with such cynicism.
Pretty much none of these monuments are there for the soldiers. They're all just blatant and ugly symbols of occupation. Just look at them. Do you see something that speaks of the unspeakable suffering, that was suffered by millions during that war? Or do you see a collection of people "victoriously raising the Soviet flag"? How is that commemoration?
There are countless Soviet soldier graveyards throughout Eastern Europe, most of which are nowhere near as blatant, most of them maintained and kept clean and orderly by the same locals, that would spit upon these Victory Monuments and such put into the centers of cities and towns by the occupants.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 10, 2015, 09:38:03 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 09:02:57 pm
Never heard this from evil number one Putin, maybe some politicans say it, never heard it, maybe our clown Zhirinovskiy can say this, nobody cares about him, I think your propoganda works well. But when you laugh about 25 mln people who were killed during WW2 in Russia, because this monument means this for us, it makes me angry.

Baltics generally dont say shit to Russia and if Russia wants to be such big friends than why arent we friends? Think about that for a second. One of them has to be lying, cause otherwise the hate wouldnt make sense and just wouldnt be there. Im sorry I havent noticed that I listen to so much propaganda that we dont see how nice neibhour Russia is and how it always wanted to be friends with us. Do you honestly belive that? I highly doubt it...

Quote from: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 09:29:03 pm
So according to your logic, if this countries were occupied, then they were Na zi and were glad to be part of Germany. Well maybe you learnt it in your school. As I know Soviet army tried to win a war against Germany. So maybe they freed those countries(I don't talk about people who raped women and rob everything they saw). Or maybe you have another opinion about what monuments are used for. For me monuments are built to commemorate smth or smb.

Honoring the dead is fine. The monuments are a symbol of Soviet oppression to us, not Soviet victory over na zis.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 09:40:19 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:37:38 pm
Pretty much nothing of what you just wrote made any sense.

Anyways, you really have no idea, if you think that the SU did at any point honor the memory of those millions that fought and died for it. It didn't, the monstrous regime only used these deaths to further it's own goals. I know of no other state of the developed world, that has treated it's own dead with such cynicism.
Pretty much none of these monuments are there for the soldiers. They're all just blatant and ugly symbols of occupation. Just look at them. Do you see something that speaks of the unspeakable suffering, that was suffered by millions during that war? Or do you see a collection of people "victoriously raising the Soviet flag"? How is that commemoration?
There are countless Soviet soldier graveyards throughout Eastern Europe, most of which are nowhere near as blatant, most of them maintained and kept clean and orderly by the same locals, that would spit upon these Victory Monuments and such put into the centers of cities and towns by the occupants.
Ok, sorry Na zi PTX for SU occupation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:43:02 pm
...

Idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 10, 2015, 09:43:22 pm
Stop being fascist PTX.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:44:49 pm
Yes, yes, "fašism ņi projģot!" :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 10, 2015, 09:51:09 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:44:49 pm
Yes, yes, "fašism ņi projģot!" :|

Oh stop it, you! Fascist gayropean pro-american nаzi scum! If we wanted - we would occupy your whole country during 2 minutes and 46 seconds (30 seconds out of which we would use for sipping vodka).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 10, 2015, 09:58:34 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 10, 2015, 09:51:09 pm
Oh stop it, you! Fascist gayropean pro-american nаzi scum! If we wanted - we would occupy your whole country during 2 minutes and 46 seconds (30 seconds out of which we would use for sipping vodka).
You forgot potatoes. Latvians eat potatoes.

Also - DonNicko - I do not know what to think of you: either you are dumb as fuck or just willfully ignorant. Baltics were occupied 3 times during WW2: by russia, then by naztees, then again by russia. If you want to see how "liberating" looks like - allies have liberated France, Belgium, etc. They were liberated, we only exchanged on fucked up overlord for another.

Also - sorry to bring this to you - but casualties by SU are quite comparable to casualties due to Naztees (at least in baltics) and thus comparison of the two is very easy to do even if it makes your grand dads cry or some shit. My grandparents were making roads and railroads for your cleptocracy in siberia, cry about that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 10:00:14 pm
Okay, i can't resist, here's another example of how Russia continues the fine Soviet traditions of honoring the fallen Russian soldiers from WW2:

There's countless soviet soldier cemeteries littered throughout Eastern Europe. There's at least a couple around my own small hometown. And they're all very clean and well maintained... by the local administration with their own funds. It's not really their duty to do so, they could just stop maintaining them one day and none could blame them.
They have, on multiple occasions, extended offers to the appropriate RF institutions to aid them in maintaining these cemeteries. Afterall, it's Russian soldiers there. They have been refused every single time. Is it not the duty of a decent state to take care of the graves of it's soldiers abroad? But no, all we get is smear over how we disrespect the Russian fallen by removing terrible monuments not even related to them. :rolleyes:

For comparison, quickest i could find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_War_Graves_Commission
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on February 10, 2015, 10:03:32 pm
Isn't vodka just fermented potatoes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 10:31:23 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 10, 2015, 09:58:34 pm
You forgot potatoes. Latvians eat potatoes.

Also - DonNicko - I do not know what to think of you: either you are dumb as fuck or just willfully ignorant. Baltics were occupied 3 times during WW2: by russia, then by naztees, then again by russia. If you want to see how "liberating" looks like - allies have liberated France, Belgium, etc. They were liberated, we only exchanged on fucked up overlord for another.

Also - sorry to bring this to you - but casualties by SU are quite comparable to casualties due to Naztees (at least in baltics) and thus comparison of the two is very easy to do even if it makes your grand dads cry or some shit. My grandparents were making roads and railroads for your cleptocracy in siberia, cry about that.
Nothing can say about occupation, this was just agreement between Stalin and einstein. And small countries were like a change coin. And also you can take the resolution of congress of People's Deputies of 1989 where is written that Russia condemns the pact of a molotov-rebentrop, it didn't reflect opinion of the Soviet people, and that was only between Stalin and H itler.
My grand grand parents were killed, because they were too rich, and USSR took all their lands. So your grandparents are lucky to be alive that times. I know maybe more about Stalin, as I said before he was the same as H itler. But you can blame him, why you should blame monuments. And you always try to compare new Russia with USSR with a head Stalin. It sounds stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 10, 2015, 10:32:18 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on February 10, 2015, 09:44:49 pm
Yes, yes, "fašism ņi projģot!" :|

Perkunas dude, perkunas.

We all know u are a closet natzeeee, stop denying it bro  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 10, 2015, 10:53:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 10:31:23 pm
Nothing can say about occupation, this was just agreement between Stalin and einstein. And small countries were like a change coin. And also you can take the resolution of congress of People's Deputies of 1989 where is written that Russia condemns the pact of a molotov-rebentrop, it didn't reflect opinion of the Soviet people, and that was only between Stalin and H itler.
My grand grand parents were killed, because they were too rich, and USSR took all their lands. So your grandparents are lucky to be alive that times. I know maybe more about Stalin, as I said before he was the same as H itler. But you can blame him, why you should blame monuments. And you always try to compare new Russia with USSR with a head Stalin. It sounds stupid.

This sounds like "it wasn't us/me, it was some other russians". Think how differently germans handled their past and SPOT THE DIFFERENCE   :shock:

Monuments are for SU and their bs. So to reverse the question: why should I care about them ONE BIT?



And you always try to compare new Rrussia with USSR with a head Stalin. It sounds stupid. Pray tell - why is it stupid? Current russia is acting like former cccp/tzardom (or a kleptocracy), so why not compare them? In fact - going a bit further - why do you find them different?

Flag? Well... duh.
Anthem - well... small adjustments to words.
Symbols and heroes - mostly same.
Personality/leader cult - applicable.
Severly limited personal freedom - check.
BEHAVIOR on international scale (which IMO is a defining trait, trumping all of the above) - very comparable, i.e. might-makes-bullshit-and-right, shameless landgrabs. Whats different?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 10, 2015, 11:40:30 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 07:21:04 pm
... About baltic countries I saw only this
(click to show/hide)
...

Umm, this is from Bulgaria. You know Balkans not Baltics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 10, 2015, 11:41:36 pm
Fail.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 11, 2015, 06:29:15 am
Quote from: Mala on February 10, 2015, 11:40:30 pm
Umm, this is from Bulgaria. You know Balkans not Baltics.
I know that this is Bulgaria, I took this picture to overall everything, in Baltic countries people are not so artistic, they just paint them with one color
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 11, 2015, 08:40:56 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 11, 2015, 06:29:15 am
I know that this is Bulgaria, I took this picture to overall everything, in Baltic countries people are not so artistic, they just paint them with one color

For the record - we have a dumpster-park, where you can go and watch all those monuments to no end. I don't think painting them is of interest for anyone atm, they just rot there and fat mmmurricans come and pay money to see that crap. You can come to if you want.
http://www.grutoparkas.lt/?lang=gb
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 11, 2015, 08:55:08 am
Omg fucking Na Zi stop derailing!   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 11, 2015, 09:02:36 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 11, 2015, 08:55:08 am
Omg fucking Na Zi stop derailing!   :P
Oh yeah? EAT THISGRECHKA: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2vg2qk/serious_redditors_of_russia_has_the_crisis_and/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 11, 2015, 09:15:28 am
I do not like grechka!, prefer tears Ukrainian children  :P

By the way this morning will be next negotiations, maybe they will stop this shit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 11, 2015, 09:19:39 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 11, 2015, 09:15:28 am
<...>
By the way this morning will be next negotiations, maybe they will stop this shit
On this I believe we agree. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2015, 09:23:38 am
Yeah, like that is going to happen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 11, 2015, 09:36:24 am
Don't think they gonna make any progress. At least nothing meaningful. More like "Yea, well, guess we gonna meet again in 1 month and try again."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 11, 2015, 09:41:59 am
Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2015, 09:36:24 am
Don't think they gonna make any progress. At least nothing meaningful. More like "Yea, well, guess we gonna meet again in 1 month and try again."
in this case, Poroshenko will not have another month. I think if Debaltsevsky cauldron will be destroyed he will lose support of the army.

 By the way in Russia are developing a draft law on private military companies ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2015, 09:46:09 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Andswaru on February 11, 2015, 10:11:48 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 11, 2015, 09:41:59 am
in this case, Poroshenko will not have another month. I think if Debaltsevsky cauldron will be destroyed he will lose support of the army.

Before that happens the USA will arrive with a enough equipment to blow the rebels/freedom fighters, to hell and back.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 11, 2015, 02:05:22 pm
But... USA and Russia aren't present in this conflict. It's the Ukraine military vs rebels, don't you remember? :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 11, 2015, 02:19:07 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 11, 2015, 09:46:09 am
DAMN you broke my ears. With insults like these - who needs the west and US?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 11, 2015, 03:07:24 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 11, 2015, 09:46:09 am

the czar is not amused :p
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 11, 2015, 04:07:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 10, 2015, 07:21:04 pm
And this how we react
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So for you it can be laughable, for us it is not.

The picture that you posted shows how soviet veterans react to global disrespect and attitude in general of your government and people.
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If you're so proud, why do veterans of WWII live like shit in Russia? If you fight nаzis, why Russia has the biggest amount of neonаzi and fascists organizations in Europe?
If Novorussia is fighting nаzists, why Pavel Gubarev is one of its leaders? Too many questions that you can't answer because of hypocrisy of your statements. Wasn't it you who was eating shit and meanwhile tried to prove that there were no Russian troops in Crimea and that Russia doesn't stand behind the war on the east of Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 11, 2015, 04:09:54 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 11, 2015, 02:05:22 pm
But... USA and Russia aren't present in this conflict. It's the Ukraine military vs rebels, don't you remember? :wink:

Russia is, USA is not yet present though Ukrainian warriors are willingly waiting for it, they really lack american military technologies which are far beyond Russian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 11, 2015, 04:25:41 pm
Jesus Christ, what the serious fuck, Nicko?! :shock:

Your mum dropped you as a child on the floor or something... this is so unreal  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 11, 2015, 04:36:31 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 11, 2015, 04:07:48 pm
The picture that you posted shows how soviet veterans react to global disrespect and attitude in general of your government and people.
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If you're so proud, why do veterans of WWII live like shit in Russia? If you fight nаzis, why Russia has the biggest amount of neonаzi and fascists organizations in Europe?
If Novorussia is fighting nаzists, why Pavel Gubarev is one of its leaders? Too many questions that you can't answer because of hypocrisy of your statements. Wasn't it you who was eating shit and meanwhile tried to prove that there were no Russian troops in Crimea and that Russia doesn't stand behind the war on the east of Ukraine?
Dave, I don't know where did you get your information, but seems you cant even google it and find the truth. I have one veteran that is living near me, 3 years ago he got an apartment for free, his pension is about 29000 rubbles. Maybe that veteran in Ukraine? Maybe your propoganda is too strong?
About Neochocolate chip cookie, I saw them maybe ten years ago. Yes there were a lot of them. But now I don't see them anywhere. If you don't know we have a lot of films that condemns all of this. And in our country if you are Neochocolate chip cookie, you will never get to the army. And of course government never gave them weapons as your government did.
About Gubarev and eating shit I didn't get, don't judge people by yourself. About Russian troops, your general said there is no regular russian troops in Ukraine. What you didn't understand, or you believe that russian army is fighting in Donbass? Then your propoganda is really strong.
Interesting did you listen what civilians in shelled Kramatorsk are saying, I think your TV will never show шt to you, continue eat what TV gives you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 11, 2015, 05:01:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 11, 2015, 04:36:31 pm
Dave, I don't know where did you get your information, but seems you cant even google it and find the truth. I have one veteran that is living near me, 3 years ago he got an apartment for free, his pension is about 29000 rubbles. Maybe that veteran in Ukraine? Maybe your propoganda is too strong?
About Neochocolate chip cookie, I saw them maybe ten years ago. Yes there were a lot of them. But now I don't see them anywhere. If you don't know we have a lot of films that condemns all of this. And in our country if you are Neochocolate chip cookie, you will never get to the army. And of course government never gave them weapons as your government did.
About Gubarev and eating shit I didn't get, don't judge people by yourself. About Russian troops, your general said there is no regular russian troops in Ukraine. What you didn't understand, or you believe that russian army is fighting in Donbass? Then your propoganda is really strong.
Interesting did you listen what civilians in shelled Kramatorsk are saying, I think your TV will never show eat to you, continue it what TV gives you

Okay, maybe in your city there is one person like that (even that there is almost noone left). And even then, you say it like he's a rich man. 29000 rubles which is not even 400 euro. Isn't cool enough for one of the richest countries of the World? About TV - I don't watch TV at all, neither Ukrainian nor Russian. About Gubarev - he's a known member of nаzi organization with a lot of proofs and even photoes, I think it was posted here a couple of times, cba to find. What you didn't understand or you're really that retarded: can you read at least ANY language? Show me a proof that our general said that (it's actually that general that another retard who is known as Tovi took for Jerzi Dziewulsky)? He said that Ukrainian military currently doesn't fight against regular units of Russian army. It's clearly written in Russian and it means that Ukrainian army doesn't fight against battalions/divisions/brigades of Russian army with Russian insignia and all that stuff. At least read what he said just fucking 5 seconds later after that about Russian troops. Russian army is indeed fighting in Ukraine, only a bighead idiot like you can resist. There is no doubt that they don't use their insignia and they don't use regular units there (in fact they do, but usually the size of it is not bigger than a platoon which can't be considered a separate military unit), that is obvious as well but the amount of Russian military personnel (as volunteers, commanders, instructors, separate squads and so on) there is counted in thousands. Continue eating shit, you're so pathetic that I'm getting angry at you (though I shouldn't get angry at mentally challenged people).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 11, 2015, 05:21:31 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 11, 2015, 05:01:01 pm
Okay, maybe in your city there is one person like that (even that there is almost noone left). And even then, you say it like he's a rich man. 29000 rubles which is not even 400 euro. Isn't cool enough for one of the richest countries of the World? About TV - I don't watch TV at all, neither Ukrainian nor Russian. About Gubarev - he's a known member of nаzi organization with a lot of proofs and even photoes, I think it was posted here a couple of times, cba to find. What you didn't understand or you're really that retarded: can you read at least ANY language? Show me a proof that our general said that (it's actually that general that another retard who is known as Tovi took for Jerzi Dziewulsky)? He said that Ukrainian military currently doesn't fight against regular units of Russian army. It's clearly written in Russian and it means that Ukrainian army doesn't fight against battalions/divisions/brigades of Russian army with Russian insignia and all that stuff. At least read what he said just fucking 5 seconds later after that about Russian troops. Russian army is indeed fighting in Ukraine, only a bighead idiot like you can resist. There is no doubt that they don't use their insignia and they don't use regular units there (in fact they do, but usually the size of it is not bigger than a platoon which can't be considered a separate military unit), that is obvious as well but the amount of Russian military personnel (as volunteers, commanders, instructors, separate squads and so on) there is counted in thousands. Continue eating shit, you're so pathetic that I'm getting angry at you (though I shouldn't get angry at mentally challenged people).
one person lol, just what you posted about is totall bullshit, if you cant say that you were wrong and posted a crap, then you are mentally challenged man. For information in Russia in 2012 there were 3,4 mln veterans . And listen another one mentally challenged man
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 11, 2015, 06:11:58 pm
Does anyone below 25 watch tv anymore?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2015, 07:04:31 pm
I only know people above 50 who watch TV.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 11, 2015, 11:15:01 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 11, 2015, 06:11:58 pm
Does anyone below 25 watch tv anymore?

My kids watch cartoons ;)   (US and Japanese shit...)



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2015, 11:26:25 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 11, 2015, 11:15:01 pm
My kids watch cartoons ;)   (US and Japanese shit...)

But if they were watching those nice russian cartoons, eh!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 11, 2015, 11:49:48 pm
Indeed, they were pretty nice. But french ones are better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 12, 2015, 12:02:09 am
Vovka - so Ksenia is not a journalist, is this barkind dog (?) a russian journalist?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on February 12, 2015, 01:43:10 am
Lol'd hard. Look at Putins face

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2015, 02:07:34 am
Do you even read the thread, fággot

Quote from: LordBerenger on February 12, 2015, 01:43:10 am
Lol'd hard. Look at Putins face

(click to show/hide)

Gloria Victis
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on February 12, 2015, 02:41:31 am
Quote from: Christo on February 12, 2015, 02:07:34 am
Do you even read the thread, fággot

Gloria Victis

Pootin is love, Pootin is life. And Pootin is Ukraine. Wherever Pootin stands, it's Roossiya


Also gey ass lame meme for a lame gayme
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 12, 2015, 05:46:46 am
Quote from: Tovi on February 11, 2015, 11:15:01 pm
My kids watch cartoons ;)   (US and Japanese shit...)
You have kids? Oh dear god. Im quite sure you homeschool them in your basement in fear of pro-US propaganda schoolsystem.

Also yea, russian cartoons arent actually half bad. Despite not understanding any words, I kinda liked them as a kid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 12, 2015, 09:09:09 am
Quote from: Tibe on February 12, 2015, 05:46:46 am
You have kids? Oh dear god. Im quite sure you homeschool them in your basement in fear of pro-US propaganda schoolsystem.

Also yea, russian cartoons arent actually half bad. Despite not understanding any words, I kinda liked them as a kid.
I think this is comparable and applies to the case of Tovi:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2015, 09:14:47 am
Kuujis pls

that pic gave me cancer

Meanwhile, ruskies are threatening romania with the destruction of their fleet


inb4 'romania fleet is only row boat )) xnxnxnx'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 09:36:16 am
Quote from: Christo on February 12, 2015, 09:14:47 am
(click to show/hide)
you as an inveterate gay, you look at the person and see only the ass XD

Quote from: Kuujis on February 12, 2015, 09:09:09 am
(click to show/hide)
fucking baltic racist and na zi!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2015, 09:46:33 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 09:36:16 am
you as an inveterate gay, you look at the person and see only the ass XD

Quote from: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 09:36:16 am
XD

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Damn, I just got Vovka'd.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 12, 2015, 09:47:47 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 09:36:16 am
you as an inveterate gay, you look at the person and see only the ass XD
fucking baltic racist and na zi!
Please use the dash, coz dash don't be silent. k?
na-zi. Actually - GRAMMER NA-ZI.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 10:30:15 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 12, 2015, 09:47:47 am
Please use the dash, coz dash don't be silent. k?
na-zi. Actually - GRAMMER NA-ZI.
U SILLY! NADASHZI! PRONOUNCE IT RIGHT!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 12, 2015, 11:55:41 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 10:30:15 am
U SILLY! NADASHZI! PRONOUNCE IT RIGHT!
RIGHT is naztees, communizm is LEFT. Such a noob. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2015, 12:00:56 pm
Hooray, ceasefire on feb 15.

I wonder how quickly will they ignore this one now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 12:10:05 pm
DONBASS DASH NASH !  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2015, 12:14:14 pm
Not donbass, dumbass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 12:16:56 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 12, 2015, 12:14:14 pm
dumbass.
U
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2015, 12:19:56 pm
vovka is mad

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 12:25:12 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 12, 2015, 12:19:56 pm
vovka is mad
just bored  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on February 12, 2015, 12:33:59 pm
Hungary, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc should all belong to Soviet Union 2.0


Only problem is Comrade Putin lacks a good moustache.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 12, 2015, 12:48:47 pm
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Quote from: Kuujis on February 12, 2015, 12:02:09 am
Vovka - so Ksenia is not a journalist, is this barkind dog (?) a russian journalist?
This "girl" reminds me of my younger brother. He for hours provoked me and then ran complain to mom when I was abusing and beat him )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 12, 2015, 02:10:12 pm
result:

sanctions against russia and possible weapons delivery to ukraine were delayed, while tanks and grads will keep flowing via eastern ukraine.

until 15th there will be pure hell, especially in debalcevo, then a few days peace just for the looks and then the offensive will slowly renew full scale again.

then new meeting again and new peace treaty.

etc.
etc.
etc.

until the whole eastern ukraine is novorossia.

then the peace may be real.

and crimea? nobody will even remember.

putler victor, zacharcenko victor, ukraine sacrificed, hollande and merkel can say they tried god damn hard, monkey in washington can sleep, relations (business ones) will (very) slowly normalize, regular rus no food but vodka cheap and dota2 running so he happy, chamberlain in europe happy too, everyone happy.

end of round 1

and new round 2 can begin
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 13, 2015, 12:36:51 am
They just try to save their troops catched in the Debastlovo cauldron. Especially some western mercenaries...

Let's see. Now Ukraine need fresh money, new weapons and a 5th mobilization. Nobody wants to fight anymore for this gvt. I think the game is quite over unless NATO directly intervene.



Bonus :

Academi mercs spoted !  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 13, 2015, 12:43:14 am
Who wants to fight under such shitty command ?  :shock:
Poor ukrainians, just cannon fodder in the hands of their new oligarchs.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 13, 2015, 02:48:56 am
More clueless posts from Tovi, the man who banned himself from this thread three times, has been proven wrong 1000 times, never acknowledged it, continues posting. Glorious.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 13, 2015, 05:49:53 am
Quote from: Tovi on February 13, 2015, 12:43:14 am
Who wants to fight under such shitty command ?  :shock:
Poor ukrainians, just cannon fodder in the hands of their new oligarchs.

Atleast they are cannon fodder in the hands of their own oligarchs, not russian oligarchs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 13, 2015, 08:51:00 am

only 2 days left we need destroy as many as we can!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 13, 2015, 09:36:04 am
Quote from: Tibe on February 13, 2015, 05:49:53 am
Atleast they are cannon fodder in the hands of their own oligarchs, not russian oligarchs.

Not even. These ones have been created by the US foreign dept. during the 2000's.


New cease-fire negociations at Minsk where pretty cool : Russia will receive its Mistral in march and Ukraine won't receive (officialy) weapons from european countries.  :mrgreen:
I like the way my president is convincing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 13, 2015, 03:44:05 pm
more nato troops spotted in urkraine.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 13, 2015, 03:59:28 pm
Quote from: Mala on February 13, 2015, 03:44:05 pm
more nato troops spotted in urkraine.
(click to show/hide)
Yeah... germans are that open and nice, that they don't hide...  :rolleyes:

To the "there are no proofs of russia transferring weapons" - have you looked into https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2015/02/12/ukraine-conflict-vehicle-first-week/ ? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 13, 2015, 05:58:26 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 13, 2015, 03:59:28 pm
Yeah... germans are that open and nice, that they don't hide...  :rolleyes:

To the "there are no proofs of russia transferring weapons" - have you looked into https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2015/02/12/ukraine-conflict-vehicle-first-week/ ? :)
soon in baltic
death to na-zi!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 13, 2015, 07:58:58 pm
Quote from: Mala on February 13, 2015, 03:44:05 pm
more nato troops spotted in urkraine.
(click to show/hide)
Those are Academi, OBVIOUSLY!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 13, 2015, 09:52:45 pm
Quote from: Mala on February 13, 2015, 03:44:05 pm
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Live free in the NC
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tom Cruise on February 14, 2015, 04:12:33 am
This thread....is soooo long. What the hell is even happening anymore. Haven't followed up on it at all since it first began. Last thing I remember was Putin riding in on a bear telling everyone this was his country now.

Some one bring me up to date in a totally unbiased way.

Or biased. That would create more drama.

I am okay with either one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on February 14, 2015, 09:46:53 am
Russia bad
No US worse
No your mother
No your putin
Tovi makes up some bullshit
Maydan was legit
Wait it wasnt
Yes it was
Proof? Evidence? Most of the time nowhere to be found

etc etc, random internet people making up bullshit and claiming the moral high ground on topics
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Clockworkkiller on February 14, 2015, 09:52:58 am
Ukraine is boring


Stupid Asian countries
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 15, 2015, 03:28:46 pm
Luhansk was shelled today, seems Kiev can't controll their troops. They gave weapons to radical groups, and now can't controll them. Seems the same as USA did in Syria, Afghanistan and others countries where USA supported radical groups with weapons
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 15, 2015, 03:33:27 pm
What about the retarded rebel leader who attacks Debaltseve, based on the logic 'it was not in the ceasefire agreement so we can attack it because ours', Nicko?

Not so loud about that one, huh?

Or what about Popasna, two civilian deaths by separatist attack since the ceasefire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 15, 2015, 04:12:01 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 15, 2015, 03:33:27 pm
What about the retarded rebel leader who attacks Debaltseve, based on the logic 'it was not in the ceasefire agreement so we can attack it because ours', Nicko?

Not so loud about that one, huh?

Or what about Popasna, two civilian deaths by separatist attack since the ceasefire.
About Debaltsevo, both sides condemn each other in breaking ceasefire, and that was from 0 to 3 a.m. Luhansk was shelled in 10:35 a.m. Shelling huge city, seems for you is OK.
Here you are another fake from Prime-minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk: Fighters put explosive in children's toys. Well I heard something simillar from USA about russians in Afghanistan. I think you will believe everything shit like that Christo)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 15, 2015, 04:16:13 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 13, 2015, 09:52:45 pm
Live free in the NC

cry evrytiem


I still wonder why did NATO refrain from sending some actual help in Ukraine. Considering Putin says there's no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine, I don't see how sending the boys could be perceived as an aggression. That, or they just don't want to help, which seems much more likely considering the results of these talks. On some level that's probably the right attitude on the long run, as it will polarize the rest of Ukraine towards the EU. The Eastern regions were already lost anyways. If the local interviews are to be trusted the inhabitants were already swallowing Russian state propaganda before this mess.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 15, 2015, 07:07:27 pm
first, the ukraine is no member state.
second, if you send troops, then you are a participant in this conflict and you rule yourself out as intermediary.
thats why no one shows a 100% proof of russian involvement, only some hints now and then to remind the other side not to carry things too far.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 15, 2015, 07:52:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 15, 2015, 04:12:01 pm
About Debaltsevo, both sides condemn each other in breaking ceasefire, and that was from 0 to 3 a.m. Luhansk was shelled in 10:35 a.m. Shelling huge city, seems for you is OK.
Here you are another fake from Prime-minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk: Fighters put explosive in children's toys. Well I heard something simillar from USA about russians in Afghanistan. I think you will believe everything shit like that Christo)

Could have easly been shelled by the rebels. OSCE confirmed that some streets filled with civilians have been bombed by separatists before. I think you are the one believing everything. Think about the fact that Ukraine has a lot of firepower. If it really was na zi and wanted to kill everyone, like your shitty pro-rus propaganda states, they would have done so long ago. I dont really see the army as evil in this, nor do I see the separatists evil aswell. They are just misguided and told by propaganda that they either fight Ukr or turn into fas chists ruled by someone similar to Hit ler.

They arent even fighting for their homes or loved ones, they are fighting for Russias lies. People in the East believe and do anything, if you scare them with na zis.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 15, 2015, 08:15:46 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 15, 2015, 03:28:46 pm
Luhansk was shelled today, seems Kiev can't controll their troops. They gave weapons to radical groups, and now can't controll them. Seems the same as USA did in Syria, Afghanistan and others countries where USA supported radical groups with weapons

You will forgive me if I call bullshit on those so called "novorussians", especially after stunts like this http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN0LJ0LY20150215?irpc=932 and http://slon.ru/fast/world/v-dnr-podtverdili-gotovnost-obstrelivat-debaltsevo-vo-vremya-peremiriya-1215604.xhtml.

Also - did you ask your putler (or maybe your so called "journalists" did) why he was asking postponement for ceasfire for 10 extra days and barely agreed on 2? This is "I want only peace" in east Ukraine, but "in russian"? Or how do you interpret that shit?

Oh, and a cherry on the pie: http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2015/02/11_a_6408545.shtml  Still "no russian army" in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 15, 2015, 10:28:09 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 15, 2015, 08:15:46 pm
(click to show/hide)
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 16, 2015, 01:03:32 pm
New proof that Russia wants to invade the free world !

(click to show/hide)


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 16, 2015, 01:16:36 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 16, 2015, 01:03:32 pm
New proof that Russia wants to invade the free world !

(click to show/hide)


The difference is that when you fuck up in the West like that, the Western media calls you out and ridicules you.

When you fuck up in Russia, or when you fuck up when you're Tovi (100% of the time), you just ignore it happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on February 16, 2015, 01:22:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 16, 2015, 01:03:32 pm
New proof that Russia wants to invade the free world !

(click to show/hide)


(click to show/hide)

nope, bias news, take it somewhere else, if it wasnt for the name of the channel, the first 20 seconds gave it away, get that garbage out of here.

"of course, being a republican senator, he would like more war"

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 16, 2015, 02:53:05 pm
Nothing beats AMTV when it comes to that kind of shite  :mrgreen:


Listen to what he says at 4:00  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 17, 2015, 12:42:48 am
SHIT JUST GOT REAL!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXSjjFwaAG8&feature=youtu.be&t=6m56s

Trustory. No fake.

Also - liar cought on camera changes story from "see they are bombing us constantly" to "see, we are firing at each other..."  :rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bVF7U8stRIU#t=98
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 17, 2015, 03:15:17 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 17, 2015, 12:42:48 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 17, 2015, 12:53:42 pm
Putin coming to Budapest today, fuck Orbán too for inviting him by the way.

Also closing down half of the city so people cant do anything

Fucking traitor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 17, 2015, 01:29:19 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 17, 2015, 12:53:42 pm
Putin coming to Budapest today, fuck Orbán too for inviting him by the way.

Also closing down half of the city so people cant do anything

Fucking traitor.
More money for his country, why he should deny them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 17, 2015, 01:48:41 pm
You believe any kind of shit don't you, Nicko.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 17, 2015, 01:55:51 pm
Some maps : http://militarymaps.info/

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 17, 2015, 01:57:12 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 17, 2015, 01:55:51 pm
Some maps : http://militarymaps.info/
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 17, 2015, 01:57:58 pm
some maps : http://somemaps.com/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 17, 2015, 02:23:09 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 17, 2015, 01:48:41 pm
You believe any kind of shit don't you, Nicko.
No, Christo. I'm a little bit different from you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 17, 2015, 02:36:54 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 17, 2015, 03:04:08 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 17, 2015, 01:29:19 pm
More money for his country, why he should deny them.

Seriuslly. No country ever became poorer and less free by ending their friendship with Russia. That alone should say something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 17, 2015, 03:06:58 pm
Long story short: Orbán asked for a russian loan.

From this loan, they want to construct new parts of the Paks NPP, guess who will be assigned to the job?
Yeah, obviously a russian company. The agreement works totally on their terms, and to their benefit.

Actually everything was made confidential about this project, we are speculating because of how bad of a deal it was for us, and the hungarian energy industry.

This will cause an unnecessary debt for Hungary, one that could have been avoided.

But sure, keep believing that he gives more money to this country  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 17, 2015, 03:26:46 pm
The UA in Debastleva is actually retreating toward south. They won't get out.

I read it on the internet, sure, because my friends in Donetsk send me informations via internet. So what ? We live in the 21th century. Do you use homing pigeons ?

Xant, arent' you tired to troll this thread ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 17, 2015, 03:46:49 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 17, 2015, 03:26:46 pm
Xant, arent' you tired to troll this thread ?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 17, 2015, 04:13:16 pm
Yea, Xant, fuck off! Tovi's speaking truths and you keep bringing your filthy lies here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 17, 2015, 04:41:45 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 17, 2015, 03:26:46 pm
The UA in Debastleva is actually retreating toward south. They won't get out.

I read it on the internet, sure, because my friends in Donetsk send me informations via internet. So what ? We live in the 21th century. Do you use homing pigeons ?

Xant, arent' you tired to troll this thread ?
Look up the definition of irony, you absolute fucking nut.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 18, 2015, 03:33:59 pm
These putinist retards want the ruskies to come back.

http://valasz.hu/itthon/radikalis-putyinistak-akik-visszahivnak-a-ruszkikat-is-109697 (http://valasz.hu/itthon/radikalis-putyinistak-akik-visszahivnak-a-ruszkikat-is-109697)

They also renovated a monument that was raised for the russians invaders who died during the 1956 uprising, calling it a
'counter-revolution', Putin paid 'respects' to that one.

Here it is:
(click to show/hide)

It says:
'Eternal gratitude and glory to the soviet heroes, who gave their lives in the counter-revolution of 1956 for the freedom of the hungarian people.

The martyrs of 1956 are rolling in their graves.

I am in total disgust of this traitorous piece of shit country.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 18, 2015, 07:14:32 pm
Doubleposting, some activists changed a few details about the memorial.

(click to show/hide)

With those parts redacted it goes for the freedom fighters, not the russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 18, 2015, 07:17:23 pm
They agreed on a ceasefire and immediately the rebels claimed a town. Kinda shows whose a man of his word, doesnt it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 18, 2015, 07:26:16 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 18, 2015, 07:17:23 pm
They agreed on a ceasefire and immediately the rebels claimed a town. Kinda shows whose a man of his word, doesnt it.

Yeah..

Mariupol is all that they need. They'll probably push there now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lars on February 18, 2015, 09:43:04 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 18, 2015, 03:33:59 pm
These putinist retards want the ruskies to come back.

http://valasz.hu/itthon/radikalis-putyinistak-akik-visszahivnak-a-ruszkikat-is-109697 (http://valasz.hu/itthon/radikalis-putyinistak-akik-visszahivnak-a-ruszkikat-is-109697)

They also renovated a monument that was raised for the russians invaders who died during the 1956 uprising, calling it a
'counter-revolution', Putin paid 'respects' to that one.

Here it is:
(click to show/hide)

It says:
'Eternal gratitude and glory to the soviet heroes, who gave their lives in the counter-revolution of 1956 for the freedom of the hungarian people.

The martyrs of 1956 are rolling in their graves.

I am in total disgust of this traitorous piece of shit country.

The ex-president of the italian republic, giorgio napolitano the  chameleon- scumbag-snail man said in 1956 "The Soviet intervention in Hungary has contributed not only to prevent Hungary from falling into chaos and counter-revolution, crucial not only to defend the military and strategic interests of the USSR, but to save the peace in the world."  :lol:

Funny thing is that he had very different views before, in 1941 he wrote  "The operation Barbarossa civilizes the slavic people: since our secure Ally is  launched towards the conquest of Russia, there is an overriding need to  create an expeditionary force to assist the titanic German war efforts, in order to give priority to the values of civilization and of the peoples of the West against the barbarism of the eastern territories."  :lol:         

Song about the Hungarian uprising, too bad it's  "popular" mostly   among football cunts.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: the real god emperor on February 18, 2015, 10:00:25 pm
I don t understand all the blame on Putin himself, afaik %90 of Rossiya supports his actions. I am not Russki ofc ( Snow above my belly in İstanbul , geez) but don't expect me to believe Putin does some kind of Erdoğan deceive thingy, cus my last expectation is that Russians are Monarch hungry religious people. So I think it is not Putin that disturbs peace in East Europe , it is the minds of most Russians ( no offense m9s )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 18, 2015, 10:02:59 pm
It is Putin's "fault" when he has all the power in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: the real god emperor on February 18, 2015, 10:16:37 pm
Shouldn't we ask who gave him power in the first place? I believe they knew how he was gonna act, the circumstances.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 18, 2015, 10:55:28 pm
Quote from: Kratos on February 18, 2015, 10:16:37 pm
Shouldn't we ask who gave him power in the first place? I believe they knew how he was gonna act, the circumstances.
You SHOULD check up on the story how he got the powar, an interesting one. Enlightening even. It also kinda was an expected entry in the whole totalitarian power vertical he built over the years.

As to monarchy... WELL, lets see:
1. Power vertical - one guy never makes mistakes, laws are changed how he wants - check.
2. Cult of personality - check (what with all the bear riding!).
3. Bunch of suckups around profiting from all the plebs - check.

Why not a monarchy? Well... maybe "russian" monarchy (a.k.a. cleptocracy), but you can call it that way if thats more understandable to you :)

As to "who gave him power" - there is a very fine saying in Belarus/Russia - "its not important how anyone votes, its important WHO counts the votes" :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 18, 2015, 11:00:27 pm
Quote from: Kratos on February 18, 2015, 10:16:37 pm
Shouldn't we ask who gave him power in the first place? I believe they knew how he was gonna act, the circumstances.
It's not that easy. There is no "they", no hivemind. Individual Russians have no say over what Putin does, and no power to change anything, just like individual people in any country has no power to change anything. Putin probably has quite a lot of support, but a lot of Russians are poorly educated and have poor living conditions; these people are the easiest to manipulate. But there's also many Russians who strongly oppose him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 01:16:27 am
It's over : hundreds of ukrainians soldiers surrender to the Novorossia militia in the Debaltsevo cauldron. Many have fled during the night, letting their weapons behind them.

VICTORY !



Prisonners :
(click to show/hide)


Zakhachenko has been slightly injured at Debaltsevo, but don't worry, he will keep up the fight  :wink:




Some fight at Lugansk :
(click to show/hide)



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 19, 2015, 02:28:55 am
In Tovi's fantasies, he's fighting for "Novorossia."

In reality, this is Tovi:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 02:38:44 am
Yeah, and I'll kick your ass in your last bunker Xant  :mrgreen:


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 19, 2015, 02:46:11 am
wat
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 02:53:28 am
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 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Knute on February 19, 2015, 04:01:00 am
Hey Tovi, how many people have been killed in this war?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 19, 2015, 07:49:32 am
Quote from: Kratos on February 18, 2015, 10:16:37 pm
Shouldn't we ask who gave him power in the first place? I believe they knew how he was gonna act, the circumstances.

I think they did know. The first years, Putin did a lot of good in Russia. Fixed a lot of problems many failed to solve. I personally believe he did pull Russia out of the worst and he did it by waving his fist at things he didnt like. And it worked. So the people have come to the conclusion that they are barbarians and that only way anything gets solved in their country is by punching the problems straight in the face. The Western method of running the country is for pathetic weakllings. However fistwaving only gets you so far, rather fast it will eventually create more issues than it can fix.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 19, 2015, 05:07:17 pm
Today anniversary from the date of the Maidan. Whether interestingly the truth it that those trees in which were got bullets were cut, the bullets which were withdrawn from bodies were disappeared that anybody still doesn't know what rifle was used to shoot people on maidan. And in general all is forgotten and try to hold back. So at least that what is spoken about in the Russian mass media, maybe this is simply propoganda? Or Kiev tries to hide smth?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 19, 2015, 05:22:46 pm
Maybe Ukraine is besieged by big bad Russian bear and has other worries? )))))))))))))))


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 19, 2015, 05:33:42 pm
Quote from: Molly on February 19, 2015, 05:22:46 pm
Maybe Ukraine is besieged by big bad Russian bear and has other worries? )))))))))))))))


(click to show/hide)
Maybe, they have other worries, so the hide all the proofs
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 19, 2015, 06:01:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 19, 2015, 05:07:17 pm
Today anniversary from the date of the Maidan. Whether interestingly the truth it that those trees in which were got bullets were cut, the bullets which were withdrawn from bodies were disappeared that anybody still doesn't know what rifle was used to shoot people on maidan. And in general all is forgotten and try to hold back. So at least that what is spoken about in the Russian mass media, maybe this is simply propoganda? Or Kiev tries to hide smth?
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 19, 2015, 07:23:23 pm
Don - what does your shit-media say about "why there is no need for UN or EU peacekeepers in Ukraine"? Your shit-country already said, that they do not want those in this conflict. Which ofc they want ended. And pacified. (Tru story bro.)

Btw - you still proud of your shit-hole? I mean the country ofc, not your ass... which IS amazing btw, full of straight and gay shit-russian-propaganda. So that one you can be proud of, no worries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 19, 2015, 07:57:43 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 19, 2015, 07:23:23 pm
Don - what does your shit-media say about "why there is no need for UN or EU peacekeepers in Ukraine"? Your shit-country already said, that they do not want those in this conflict. Which ofc they want ended. And pacified. (Tru story bro.)
Btw - you still proud of your shit-hole? I mean the country ofc, not your ass... which IS amazing btw, full of straight and gay shit-russian-propaganda. So that one you can be proud of, no worries.
I know only one place full of gayzzz. And it's your shit-hole  Kuujis. And I mean not the your country ofc  :P :P :P :P :P :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 19, 2015, 08:13:47 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 19, 2015, 07:23:23 pm
Don - what does your shit-media say about "why there is no need for UN or EU peacekeepers in Ukraine"? Your shit-country already said, that they do not want those in this conflict. Which ofc they want ended. And pacified. (Tru story bro.)

Btw - you still proud of your shit-hole? I mean the country ofc, not your ass... which IS amazing btw, full of straight and gay shit-russian-propaganda. So that one you can be proud of, no worries.
Same as your media. Just because it is against Minsk-2, every side must have their own militia. What I think, that if UN peacekeepers will be in Ukraine then they will be atacked by smbd unknown, but EU and USA will say that Putin and Russia is guilty for this atack, UN will declare that DNR and LNR are terrorist organizations and now USA and EU have rights to sell weapon to Ukraine and bomb separatists by the air. USA will lobby new sanctions against Russia, EU will agree. And then maybe new world war. Maybe because of that Russia against UN peacekeepers in Ukraine, well I don't know, it is just my opinion
And I'm proud of my country, not about the government
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 19, 2015, 08:24:23 pm
Yea, Nicko. But UN or NATO peacekeepers are not in Ukraine. Nicko, the only people in Ukraine soil with guns, who are not ukrainians are russians. Why are they in Ukraine?

Also say NATO. UN peacekeepers are some bluehelmet pussies who dont do shit. NATO peacekeepers are actual soldiers. UN peacekeepers only mainly give food and shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 19, 2015, 08:36:19 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 19, 2015, 08:24:23 pm
Yea, Nicko. But UN or NATO peacekeepers are not in Ukraine. Nicko, the only people in Ukraine soil with guns, who are not ukrainians are russians. Why are they in Ukraine?

Also say NATO. UN peacekeepers are some bluehelmet pussies who dont do shit. NATO peacekeepers are actual soldiers. UN peacekeepers only mainly give food and shit.
Maybe Nato peacekeepers nothing will change. They will be atacked by snipers or shelled. That's why I remind that there is no investigation about Maidan snipers or Odessa massacre even worse proofs are hided by new government, so I can easily imagine that this peacekeepers will be atacked and USA will condemn Russia, russian politics are not that dumb and they can expect this.
About russian soldiers, even german general said that if there were regular russian troops, then it will be the same as in Georgia. Russian volunteers yes, I think about 10000 people. But there are voluteers on the Ukraine side from other countries too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 09:51:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 19, 2015, 08:13:47 pm
Same as your media. Just because it is against Minsk-2, every side must have their own militia. What I think, that if UN peacekeepers will be in Ukraine then they will be atacked by smbd unknown, but EU and USA will say that Putin and Russia is guilty for this atack, UN will declare that DNR and LNR are terrorist organizations and now USA and EU have rights to sell weapon to Ukraine and bomb separatists by the air. USA will lobby new sanctions against Russia, EU will agree. And then maybe new world war. Maybe because of that Russia against UN peacekeepers in Ukraine, well I don't know, it is just my opinion
And I'm proud of my country, not about the government

Militia means volunteers... the only volunteers in the west side are the neo-nazees of batalion Azov.

Also, the US sells weapons to Ukraine since the begining. Or they give their outdated weapons for free (especially the german army).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 19, 2015, 09:55:33 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 09:51:26 pm
Militia means volunteers... the only volunteers in the west side are the neo-nazees of batalion Azov.

again, Tovi is wrong.

What a fucking surprise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 19, 2015, 09:58:44 pm
Its way way way way way too onesided claims like this that make me believe that either Tovi has a fucking braintumor or is the most successful troll in these forums.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 19, 2015, 10:09:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 09:51:26 pm
Militia means volunteers... the only volunteers in the west side are the neo-nazees of batalion Azov.

Also, the US sells weapons to Ukraine since the begining. Or they give their outdated weapons for free (especially the german army).

unluckily not except a few of shit equipment. what they should give to ukraine (britain or usa) were nukes, in the end ua gave up their nukes for territorial integrity treaty that fucktards from russia blatantly violated.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 10:10:43 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 19, 2015, 09:55:33 pm
again, Tovi is wrong.

What a fucking surprise.

If you're paid you are not a "volunteer".

Ukraine is close to collapsing, maybe 4 months left, maybe 4 weeks...
Gas price are rising, hryvnia is historicaly low.
According to german secret service, Ukr. army is no more and unable to launch any more offensive. Troops deserts and lake of training.
During the next days, rebels will launch a counter-attack on Mariupol. If Mariupol falls, far right militias will drive another Maidan at Kiev.

http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/02/17/3595
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 19, 2015, 10:32:14 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 10:10:43 pm
If you're paid you are not a "volunteer".

If you're retarded, you are Tovi.

Oh, I forgot, you are a 90's generation, because you were 20 years old in the 1990's  :mrgreen:

 You know the meaning of words so well :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 19, 2015, 10:36:04 pm
I can to a certain extent understand why nicko is rooting for the russians. He is russian.

I would probably also be jaded by nationalism if my country was in a conflict. What I dont get is the insane theories and outlandish explanations that defies any common sense.


MH17==Probably Shot down by Ukraine, to frame russia. The OBVIOUS circumstances can be neglected.

50 people killed on maidan in front of Hotel Ukraine chasing retreating police. == Shot by CIA or their own.

Odessa== Deliberate Massacre. (Even though rebels tried to rescue them..)

Crimea== Democratic seccession (!)

"Rebellion" led by FSB officers == People's Revolt

I'm all for supporting Russia if that's what you think is best for Russia. Just Don't please repeat these crazy lies anymore. You sound like Russia Today.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 20, 2015, 12:30:27 am
Can we repeat what ukrainians says so ?


I think I understand what west ukrainians means by "we are attacked by Russia/Russians". If they consider Novorossia as Russia and russian people, it sounds logical.




@ Christo : in France, we talk about "Génération 68", for exemple, that means : "people who had 18 in 1968 (and tried to start a revolution, in that case )". We also talk about "Génération Mitterand" wich was a political slogan about people who had 18 in 1981 and voted socialist. I suppose it's different in your country, but that's not a reason to call you "retarded". You're just ignorant of other cultures.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 20, 2015, 12:48:55 am
No, you are the ignorant one who doesn't know how things work outside of his baguetteland.

You were the one who called himself a 90's kid, not me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 12:56:14 am
Quote from: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 09:51:26 pm
Militia means volunteers... the only volunteers in the west side are the neo-nazees of batalion Azov.

Also, the US sells weapons to Ukraine since the begining. Or they give their outdated weapons for free (especially the german army).

Tovi, I seriously feel sorry for your children, I wish you live apart because I would never wish anyone such an idiot father. Completely fucked up brain, you cheerfully accept deaths and spread bullshit. Can you show me at least any real photoes of Ukrainian military using any german weaponry or at least american in the area of ATO?

I'm aware of Azov regiment being nationalistic if not nаzi, everyone is. Though what nаzi idea do they follow? Anti-Russian? There are plenty of Russians there and they use Russian language widely. Anti-Semitic? A lot of people in our government have Jewish blood (including both prime minister and president). Xenophobic? Azov is multinational, AFAIK including mostly russians, polaks, swedes, croatians and so on, though the vast majority are ethnic ukrs. Even if you say so, they're only a regiment (less than a thousand of people), it's a drop in an ocean.

If you want to open this pandora box. I'll just post this once again. Pavel Gubarev - the so called people's governor of Donetsk, member of a known fascist organization (a lot of photos leaked, no need to check them for fakes, just too many and I think that he never refused).

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If you listen to what they say, who are they? Some of them are so stupid in their speech that they say that Ukraine is not a country, there are no Ukrainians and Ukrainian language is just a polish parody on Russian. Isn't it nаzism?


Quote from: DonNicko on February 19, 2015, 05:07:17 pm
Today anniversary from the date of the Maidan. Whether interestingly the truth it that those trees in which were got bullets were cut, the bullets which were withdrawn from bodies were disappeared that anybody still doesn't know what rifle was used to shoot people on maidan. And in general all is forgotten and try to hold back. So at least that what is spoken about in the Russian mass media, maybe this is simply propoganda? Or Kiev tries to hide smth?

Just tell me. What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you a psycho or what? Why do you keep repeating stuff over and over again. You and Tovi have a lot of common. There is a fucking war in a country, a lot of people die because of it EVERY DAY. While you were shitting your post someone got shelled and injured or even died. While the country struggles for its existence it's not the matter of importance to use resources on that. And if you don't know something or don't want to research it doesn't mean that nobody knows.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Knute on February 20, 2015, 04:24:34 am
Hey Tovi, what's the latest death toll for this conflict at?

I saw a news story the other day about a child dying after a rocket hit a kindergarten. He was probably about 5 years old. You have kids too right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 07:39:54 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 12:56:14 am
Just tell me. What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you a psycho or what? Why do you keep repeating stuff over and over again. You and Tovi have a lot of common. There is a fucking war in a country, a lot of people die because of it EVERY DAY. While you were shitting your post someone got shelled and injured or even died. While the country struggles for its existence it's not the matter of importance to use resources on that. And if you don't know something or don't want to research it doesn't mean that nobody knows.
Yes, there is a war, but difference is that your government is still thinking that they fight with Russia and not against their own people. I can say that there are a lot of russians, but ukranians are more. Why I keep repeating, because this actions on Maidan are the beginning of the war. And government tries to hide proofs about it. A lot of civilians died after shelling Donetsk and Luhansk by ukranian army. Am I wrong? No. When Chechnya wanted to separate and Stupid Eltsin send there russian troops, he was blamed for that, and now he is the most hated president in Russia. Your Government sent young people to die to Donbass, they are not trained and didn't want to kill brothers. More then half people in Donbass are so relatively close to Russia, and trying to separate them from Russia was so stupid from Government, yes your Government said that this will not happen then, but first steps were toward totall separation from Russia. Really I think that you just a patriot of your country and you don't want to think bad about your government, as many people in my country. And thinking bad about my country is also against my nature, because of that I ask to proove some statements. Dave you just try defend your country, I try to defend mine. You can call me Psycho, same as I. You don't want to think about snipers on Maidan and Odessa, I don't want to think about sending weapons to Ukraine by Russia. You don't want to think about dead civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk who were killed by ukranian army. And so on. Daughter of Kuchma has the most expensive house in the world, which costs 1,58 billions of dollars. New oligarchs just took power in your country, nothing changed, There is no people's deputy in Power. Even now you take people from other nations to rule you, OMG you took Saakashvili. Your country was plundered since 90s.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 20, 2015, 07:42:08 am
Quote from: Tovi on February 19, 2015, 10:10:43 pm
If you're paid you are not a "volunteer".

Ukraine is close to collapsing, maybe 4 months left, maybe 4 weeks...
Gas price are rising, hryvnia is historicaly low.
According to german secret service, Ukr. army is no more and unable to launch any more offensive. Troops deserts and lake of training.
During the next days, rebels will launch a counter-attack on Mariupol. If Mariupol falls, far right militias will drive another Maidan at Kiev.

http://russia-insider.com/en/2015/02/17/3595
German secret service, source: russia-insider.

Tovi keeps on deliverin'.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 08:12:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 07:39:54 am
Yes, there is a war, but difference is that your government is still thinking that they fight with Russia and not against their own people.

Here we go again.
(click to show/hide)

There is no doubt for anyone in this world who has at least 2 neurons in their brain which can connect Russia and that war. This is a Ukraine versus Russia fight, not Ukraine versus Donetsk or Ukraine versus Ukraine. They're commanded by Russians, supported by Russians, a lot of them are Russian citizens and so on. Of course there are a lot of people from Donetsk fighting there (especially in the beginning when approximately 80% of rebels were locals, only commanders were Russians) and they were/are as dumb as you thinking that they're fighting nаzis, but now I doubt that it's even a half. You have fucking internet, those apes film thousands of videos on their mobile phones, just look who's fighting there. Ivani4 ver. 2.0.

I'm not defending my government and as I've said, I didn't support the whole idea of Maidan. Though saying that Maidan started the war is like saying that someone got raped because she was a woman. Do you remember the time span between Turchinov taking seat and Russian troops in Crimea? What could they do during that couple of days if not 1 (I don't even remember how many days were between it). And what did they actually do to separate Donetsk people from Russia? It's Russia who instantly started a propaganda machine, claiming that everyone there is an anti-Russian nаzi and the government was caught by rebels (though the parliament stayed like it was for half a year after Maidan and not a single right-party got inside of a Parliament even that which was there before during Yanukovych, gg Russia).

There is no sense to "defend" my country in this thread, because my country is a victim. And this is what you do because even beside all the bullshit you spread you clearly understand what stands behind it and you are trying to justify crimes of your Motherland. But you forget to realize that those westerners of Ukraine are a huge minority in the army because the highly populated regions are in the center and the east of Ukraine. So basically DNR/LNR are fighting their neighbours, young fellows who mostly speak Russian and were mobilized to defend their country. And besides that a lot of civilians die because DNR/LNR fight like real terrorists. Do you remember what Strelkov said? If they didn't hide behind civilians - they would lose the war during a week. That obvious thing (military-wise) explains their intentions more than a lot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 08:32:10 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 08:12:07 am
There is no doubt for anyone in this world who has at least 2 neurons in their brain which can connect Russia and that war.
I think you have internet too, and you can find interviews of people in Donbass, and you can easily find out who is fighting with whom. But I think if you post such things, that Russia dishonour veterans, posting such stupid proofs, means that maybe you don't have enough neurons to find out.
I know you don't like Sharij, but I will pay you 10000 dollars, if you will find any fakes from him, and if you will watch interviews then you will understand that there is no regular russian troops, and ukranians much more in this war. Here you are how your media makes news
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: the real god emperor on February 20, 2015, 08:58:59 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 08:32:10 am
I think you have internet too, and you can find interviews of people in Donbass, and you can easily find out who is fighting with whom.

If you pay them enough they can give you that interview naked as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 20, 2015, 09:04:52 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 08:32:10 am
I think you have internet too, and you can find interviews of people in Donbass, and you can easily find out who is fighting with whom. But I think if you post such things, that Russia dishonour veterans, posting such stupid proofs, means that maybe you don't have enough neurons to find out.
I know you don't like Sharij, but I will pay you 10000 dollars, if you will find any fakes from him, and if you will watch interviews then you will understand that there is no regular russian troops, and ukranians much more in this war. Here you are how your media makes news
(click to show/hide)
To turn your "argument" back on you: you know full well WHAT kind of interviews your "media" does and which of them "get aired". So stfu.

You are proud of being part of cleptocracy and continue to defend it with bullshit. You either become your shit-state or you say "No, this is bullshit, why are we creating this war, enough already". And you don't have balls to tell "enough is enough". GG. Keep being awesome.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 20, 2015, 09:07:53 am
Quote from: Kratos on February 20, 2015, 08:58:59 am
If you pay them enough they can give you that interview naked as well.
Nah, they are just honest random people from the street.
...like that one Russian actor they interviewed like a dozen times on different matters, in different locations and she always was a "local woman".
...which has been proven about a dozens times too.

Western media on the other hand...
...all lying :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 09:15:09 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 20, 2015, 09:04:52 am
To turn your "argument" back on you: you know full well WHAT kind of interviews your "media" does and which of them "get aired". So stfu.

You are proud of being part of cleptocracy and continue to defend it with bullshit. You either become your shit-state or you say "No, this is bullshit, why are we creating this war, enough already". And you don't have balls to tell "enough is enough". GG. Keep being awesome.
Try to find my statements about crossified boy, or Natzi and you will find that crossified boy was a fake, Natzi was russian propoganda. You try to accuse me in what I didn't say. Well as always your fantasies run before your logic. I said that this ATO started by new government, others say that if they won't start it Russia would take all Ukraine, I would say no. Geopolitically Russia needed only Crimea. Donbass stood up by themselves, don't think that this was Putin's plan.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 09:23:22 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 08:32:10 am
I think you have internet too, and you can find interviews of people in Donbass, and you can easily find out who is fighting with whom. But I think if you post such things, that Russia dishonour veterans, posting such stupid proofs, means that maybe you don't have enough neurons to find out.
I know you don't like Sharij, but I will pay you 10000 dollars, if you will find any fakes from him, and if you will watch interviews then you will understand that there is no regular russian troops, and ukranians much more in this war. Here you are how your media makes news
(click to show/hide)

Can you even read? About a week ago we've already discussed this thing about regular troops and I stated my opinion. I seriously can't conversate with you and Tovi, it's hard as fuck as you either don't read my posts or you don't have any space left to memorize at least anything. I've stated (and not only my but also those Ukrainian generals that you quoted), that Ukrainian army doesn't fight regular army of Russia. I'm not sure if you don't understand the difference between regular army/military units and troops. Maybe it's a little bit hard to distinguish in English but in Russian it's clear as the summer sky. Troops mean military personnel in general, not necessary being military units (platoons, campaigns, battalions, regiments etc.). For example: 10 random russian soldiers from different parts of Russia = Russian troops. Russian soldiers who took "vacation" to fight for separatists = Russian troops. 10 soldiers from Russian regular army unit = Russian troops. Those are just troops, but not units. Military unit would be if for example the whole batallion moved out (with all their vehicles and stuff like that), that's military units. Even your beloved Shariy said that there is obviously presence of Russian army there, not in regular units though, at least couple of times even in that time that I watched his videos from time to time (first half of summer 2014). When people say that Ukraine fights regular army of Russia they either mean that Ukraine fights against people from regular army of Russia or they don't know shit (or both).

Also, Shariy posts a lot of unproven info and his position of mythbuster is easy to hold as he doesn't really create information, he criticizes it. Even though I've seen a bunch of obvious bullshit posts from Shariy but I don't want your $10000, keep it for yourself because soon we'll be both able to buy a house for 20 dollars with the way our currencies lose their value.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 09:24:42 am
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2015, 09:07:53 am
Nah, they are just honest random people from the street.
...like that one Russian actor they interviewed like a dozen times on different matters, in different locations and she always was a "local woman".
...which has been proven about a dozens times too.

lol Molly you just showed that you are one who like to eat fakes
if you understand Russian here you are a video about that local woman
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 09:33:12 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 09:15:09 am
Try to find my statements about crossified boy, or Natzi and you will find that crossified boy was a fake, Natzi was russian propoganda. You try to accuse me in what I didn't say. Well as always your fantasies run before your logic. I said that this ATO started by new government, others say that if they won't start it Russia would take all Ukraine, I would say no. Geopolitically Russia needed only Crimea. Donbass stood up by themselves, don't think that this was Putin's plan.

 :lol: Crimea being fully isolated from the entire world as they don't have ground connection to Russia, Donetsk being the industrial center of Ukraine, having a full round control of Azov sea.

Geopolitically Russia needed the whole South of Ukraine besides Crimea (at least 3 regions of Ukraine to connect Crimea). Besides that connection to Transnistria. Just look on the map lol. Why do I even discuss it? Stood up by themselves lol, a group of Russians (Russian fucking citizens) within the lead of colonel of FSB Igor Strelkov (with the real name Igor Girkin) = Donbass stood up themselves. Watch his interviews, he himself tells that if not him - there would be nothing in Donbass. Do i need to link the video or could you google it yourself?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 09:34:24 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 09:23:22 am
Can you even read? About a week ago we've already discussed this thing about regular troops and I stated my opinion. I seriously can't conversate with you and Tovi, it's hard as fuck as you either don't read my posts or you don't have any space left to memorize at least anything. I've stated (and not only my but also those Ukrainian generals that you quoted), that Ukrainian army doesn't fight regular army of Russia. I'm not sure if you don't understand the difference between regular army/military units and troops. Maybe it's a little bit hard to distinguish in English but in Russian it's clear as the summer sky. Troops mean military personnel in general, not necessary being military units (platoons, campaigns, battalions, regiments etc.). For example: 10 random russian soldiers from different parts of Russia = Russian troops. Russian soldiers who took "vacation" to fight for separatists = Russian troops. 10 soldiers from Russian regular army unit = Russian troops. Those are just troops, but not units. Military unit would be if for example the whole batallion moved out (with all their vehicles and stuff like that), that's military units. Even your beloved Shariy said that there is obviously presence of Russian army there, not in regular units though, at least couple of times even in that time that I watched his videos from time to time (first half of summer 2014). When people say that Ukraine fights regular army of Russia they either mean that Ukraine fights against people from regular army of Russia or they don't know shit (or both).

Also, Shariy posts a lot of unproven info and his position of mythbuster is easy to hold as he doesn't really create information, he criticizes it. Even though I've seen a bunch of obvious bullshit posts from Shariy but I don't want your $10000, keep it for yourself because soon we'll be both able to buy a house for 20 dollars with the way our currencies lose their value.
Lol I agree with what you wrote, just Sharij said he thinks that there is russian army. I also said, that there is about 10000 people from Russia, as I understood you call them russian troops, then OK. My friend wanted to fight in Donbass, when he asked about money. They said that there won't be any payment, if he will arrive he will get weapon, armour and food that's all. But he won't get any payment for this. About Sharij can you give me links about his bullshit, because he said if somebody will find it he will pay 10000 dollars.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 20, 2015, 10:03:45 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 09:24:42 am
lol Molly you just showed that you are one who like to eat fakes
if you understand Russian here you are a video about that local woman
(click to show/hide)
Nope, no Russian. No need. You're making good points here why there is no point in learning it.
Besides, skipped through the video, didn't see the woman I was talking about, so...

huh?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 10:08:22 am
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2015, 10:03:45 am
Nope, no Russian. No need. You're making good points here why there is no point in learning it.
Besides, skipped through the video, didn't see the woman I was talking about, so...

huh?
??? then what woman you are talking about?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 20, 2015, 10:30:08 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 10:08:22 am
??? then what woman you are talking about?
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 10:47:14 am
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2015, 10:30:08 am
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Interesting, Never saw here, I'll try to find who is she. maybe you know? First searching didn't get any info, do you have links on that videos?
Still trying to find, found only this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 20, 2015, 11:33:40 am
We actually discussed her at length in this very thread a few hundred pages back :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 20, 2015, 01:04:35 pm
well, the media thing "my side is right" boils down to:

oh and here is a quotation from hermann göring (you know fat natzi and so):
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

and at least one of my favourite personal stories:
as i was young, they have told me that the West wants to attack us to destroy your peaceful way of life.
after the fall of the wall i have visited the other side and they have told me that the East wanted to attack them to destroy their peaceful way of life.
so my conclusion was that everyone is lying to you.

personally i am a bit disappointed by Russia. the behaviour of the USA was just as i have learned in my past "agree with us or we will bomb the shit out of you!"
the last decade Russia was more like "lets talk about the issue and try to find a resolution."(well, at least from my german point of view).
then the Crimea thing happened and the tone switched to "thats your clay now, get lost or we could bomb the shit out of you!"

so in the end nothing has changed, is still is your side is right the other side is wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 20, 2015, 01:14:35 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 09:15:09 am
Try to find my statements about crossified boy, or Natzi and you will find that crossified boy was a fake, Natzi was russian propoganda. You try to accuse me in what I didn't say. Well as always your fantasies run before your logic. I said that this ATO started by new government, others say that if they won't start it Russia would take all Ukraine, I would say no. Geopolitically Russia needed only Crimea. Donbass stood up by themselves, don't think that this was Putin's plan.

Can I pleas ask you to eat your hat, becuse your so called "government" said quite the opposite. Boy  :lol:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia
Quote
The Kremlin aide added that the political and social cost of EU integration could also be high, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements springing up in the Russian-speaking east and south of Ukraine. He suggested that if Ukraine signed the agreement, Russia would consider the bilateral treaty that delineates the countries' borders to be void.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

You trying to sell the line of "crym naš" sound pitiful. Kinda "so ok, we HAD to have crimea, but everything else is Ukraines doing and pzlkthxbai forget crimea, because krymnaš qq a lot". Fuck you. Boy :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 20, 2015, 03:42:14 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 20, 2015, 10:47:14 am
Interesting, Never saw here, I'll try to find who is she. maybe you know? First searching didn't get any info, do you have links on that videos?
Still trying to find, found only this

As Molly said, we really discussed it hundreds of pages ago but we made a conclusion that though not every video/photo is the same woman but there is one that was clearly the same woman that was in different parts of Ukraine (and Moscow even, lol) and pretended to be a local. IIRC at first she was in Odessa, then she was in Slavyansk and Donetsk. After that she was in Moscow and one of the reporters actually recognized her and she said that she ran away from the war to find shelter in Moscow (oh yes, she ran away from Odessa :D), basically I didn't track where she came from but she lied at least somewhere because she couldn't be local in every place.

About Shariy - he's a bum, he doesn't have 10k of dollars.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 20, 2015, 09:14:29 pm
While we are at this alternate reality show - here is a guy doing it properly! with mac, view and ... another 2 macs  :rolleyes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/magazine/out-of-my-mouth-comes-unimpeachable-manly-truth.html?_r=0
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 08:25:06 pm
Uk delivered 20 "Saxon" AT105 to Ukraine (first of 50)
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American sniper found dead at Debstlevo
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2015, 09:20:19 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 08:25:06 pm
Uk delivered 20 "Saxon" AT105 to Ukraine (first of 50)
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American sniper found dead at Debstlevo
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:32:53 pm
No, it's just imperialism as usual.
You think it's a conspiracy because your favorite media don't tell you the truth ? Or maybe your favorite politician ? They always lied to you, it's not a conspiracy, this is just their job. Don't be so surprised.

I can give you another trick : commercials do no tell the truth, they just try to sell their shit. And Coca Cola gives cancer... Conspiracy !!!  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:35:05 pm
Kiss from Paris :




Meanwhile, Poroshenko and its supporters  :mrgreen:


The end of this traitor is near.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2015, 09:49:10 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:32:53 pm
No, it's just imperialism as usual.
You think it's a conspiracy because your favorite media don't tell you the truth ? Or maybe your favorite politician ? They always lied to you, it's not a conspiracy, this is just their job. Don't be so surprised.

I can give you another trick : commercials do no tell the truth, they just try to sell their shit. And Coca Cola gives cancer... Conspiracy !!!  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes, yes, only Tovi's conspiracy internet sites give the truth.. and Russian propaganda channels, of course.

Just like that satellite image of the plane being shot down where the plane was the size of a country  :lol:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:53:05 pm
You don't even know what a conspiracy is. A conspiracy is a group of people trying to seize power. Where do you see a conspiracy ? You just repeat what your media says without a clue about the words they use.
It's not about peoples trying to seize power, it's all about peoples actually in charge.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 21, 2015, 09:53:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:35:05 pm
Meanwhile, Poroshenko and its supporters  :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)

The end of this traitor is near.

Meanwhile : Submitted January 29, 2014

Fucking idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:57:44 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2015, 10:00:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:53:05 pm
You don't even know what a conspiracy is. A conspiracy is a group of people trying to seize power. Where do you see a conspiracy ? You just repeat what your media says without a clue about the words they use.
It's not about peoples trying to seize power, it's all about peoples actually in charge.
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You're so fucking retarded  :lol:

Trying to tell me what a conspiracy is when you're as clueless when it comes to definitions as you are about everything else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 10:03:24 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 21, 2015, 09:53:59 pm
Meanwhile : Submitted January 29, 2014

Fucking idiot.

Today at Moscow


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2015, 10:04:40 pm
Here Tovi.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/
http://dictionary.reference.com/
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

Whenever you think about telling someone that they don't know what a word means, you should check here. You might only look 99.9% retarded instead of 100% like usual.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 10:11:29 pm
So you like "conspiracies" ?
Here are some, but sorry, it's all official and legal : http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-agreed-to-a-monsanto-land-grab-to-get-a-17-billion-loan-from-the-international-monetary-fund-imf/5424058


The information I give are not secret. I don't even say it's the absolute truth. But they are just unspoken informations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 21, 2015, 10:21:16 pm
tovi: what's your job? where do you work and on what position?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2015, 10:24:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 10:11:29 pm
So you like "conspiracies" ?
Here are some, but sorry, it's all official and legal : http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-agreed-to-a-monsanto-land-grab-to-get-a-17-billion-loan-from-the-international-monetary-fund-imf/5424058


The information I give are not secret. I don't even say it's the absolute truth. But they are just unspoken informations.
Hahah, classic Tovi. As always, you get proven wrong, like the retard you are, and you just ignore it and move onto your next lunatic conspiracy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 10:27:46 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 21, 2015, 10:24:04 pm
Hahah, classic Tovi. As always, you get proven wrong, like the retard you are, and you just ignore it and move onto your next lunatic conspiracy.

You prove wrong what ? I don't understand.
 You try to explain that you see conspiracies everywhere ? Like FSB/Putin ploting in Ukraine for exemple ? There is no proof of such things. But CIA has its office in Kiev, and that's a fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 21, 2015, 10:40:56 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 10:27:46 pm
But CIA has its office in Kiev, and that's a fact.

But Russia has it's territory in Crimea, and that's a fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 21, 2015, 10:44:59 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 10:27:46 pm
You prove wrong what ? I don't understand.
I'm not surprised you don't understand. You understand very little. Let me paint you a pretty picture.

Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 09:53:05 pm
You don't even know what a conspiracy is. A conspiracy is a group of people trying to seize power. Where do you see a conspiracy ? You just repeat what your media says without a clue about the words they use.
It's not about peoples trying to seize power, it's all about peoples actually in charge.
Quote from: Xant on February 21, 2015, 10:04:40 pm
Here Tovi.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/
http://dictionary.reference.com/
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

Whenever you think about telling someone that they don't know what a word means, you should check here. You might only look 99.9% retarded instead of 100% like usual.

Since that wasn't clear enough for your little pea brain, go to those sites, type in "conspiracy", ctrl+f "power."

Moron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Artyem on February 21, 2015, 11:07:43 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 21, 2015, 10:11:29 pm
So you like "conspiracies" ?
Here are some, but sorry, it's all official and legal : http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-agreed-to-a-monsanto-land-grab-to-get-a-17-billion-loan-from-the-international-monetary-fund-imf/5424058


The information I give are not secret. I don't even say it's the absolute truth. But they are just unspoken informations.

globalresearch is about as credible as Infowars.

Quote from: Tovi on June 22, 2014, 10:46:12 pm
Because Putin is more sympathetic than Obama, maybe.

I like this : http://www.infowars.com/top-u-s-diplomat-russia-has-betrayed-the-new-world-order/

oh
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 22, 2015, 01:41:08 pm
Tovi is racist and a nаzi, he hates black people and Ukrainians. I hope Tovi gets seizure for lookint on this pic and liberates us from his bullshit.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on February 22, 2015, 02:21:41 pm
Tovi uses the názi stamp to hate on western nations but when push comes to shove he'd support a possible future neo-nazí, racist, anti immigration party in the matter of seconds. If he was a Russian he'd support some neo-white Russia movement for sure.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 22, 2015, 02:28:44 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31575384 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31575384)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 22, 2015, 04:18:57 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 22, 2015, 02:28:44 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31575384 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31575384)
OMG DNR AND LNR IS A TRYE TERRORIST, THERE IS EVIDENСE! NOW THE WHOLE EU MUST BOMB THEM!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 22, 2015, 04:28:44 pm
capska pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 09:53:16 pm
My wife is african... but, nice try  :lol:


After the battle :


Look at 10'

No comment...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on February 22, 2015, 10:02:15 pm
If Tovi has a wife then i'm George W Bush
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 22, 2015, 10:04:15 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on February 22, 2015, 10:02:15 pm
If Tovi has a wife then i'm George W Bush
They breed. They vote.  Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 10:21:08 pm
Yes be afraid. I've 6 kids and I train them to kick nazee arsses.

It's a good thing that hundreds of nazees died at Debatsleva. We gonna wipe those bastards out from Europa, with the help of Russia, if necessary. I'm  gratefull for people of Donbass doing so great job.
My hope is to see all neo-nazees of Europe going to die in Donbass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 22, 2015, 10:29:25 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 10:21:08 pm
Yes be afraid. I've 6 kids and I train them to kick nazee arsses.

It's a good thing that hundreds of nazees died at Debatsleva. We gonna wipe those bastards out from Europa, with the help of Russia, if necessary. I'm  gratefull for people of Donbass doing so great job.
My hope is to see all neo-nazees of Europe going to die in Donbass.

Just be sure to NOT vaccinate them, ok?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 22, 2015, 10:36:08 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 10:21:08 pm
Yes be afraid. I've 6 kids and I train them to kick nazee arsses.

It's a good thing that hundreds of nazees died at Debatsleva. We gonna wipe those bastards out from Europa, with the help of Russia, if necessary. I'm  gratefull for people of Donbass doing so great job.
My hope is to see all neo-nazees of Europe going to die in Donbass.

I hope they won't follow their father and there won't be 6 more idiots on this planet. You must be retarded having 6 kids and playing crpg for that long, but that's none of my business, you've proven being retarded in many other ways. :mad:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2015, 10:54:16 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 09:53:16 pm
My wife is african...
Ah, that explains the mystery of how you have a wife.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on February 22, 2015, 11:06:02 pm
Do not bring meatspace into insults.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 11:28:10 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 22, 2015, 10:36:08 pm
I hope they won't follow their father and there won't be 6 more idiots on this planet. You must be retarded having 6 kids and playing crpg for that long, but that's none of my business, you've proven being retarded in many other ways. :mad:

Be sure that if my country was at war I would not playing cRPG...


An interesting poll here : http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008



Insults just prove they are just angry kids  :P I'm not afraid of kids.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 22, 2015, 11:39:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 11:28:10 pm

Insults just prove they are just angry kids  :P I'm not afraid of kids.
So tough and brave! Tovi, not afraid of people insulting him on the internet. Other people are super scared when they get insulted on the internet... but not Tovi the Delusional.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on February 23, 2015, 01:57:41 am
So...World War III Y/N?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on February 23, 2015, 01:59:38 am
Quote from: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 11:28:10 pm
Be sure that if my country was at war I would not playing cRPG...
An interesting poll here : http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008

no, you would quivering in your own piss while hiding behind the 6 children you have.


nice poll, would be nice to see the listed countries they decided to poll, fuck sake, i can make a poll look pretty bias too if i just ask all the right people.  Then they continue to go on and try and make a mountain out of a mole hill.  They put that even allied nations made this view, then didnt include the numbers to them, yet they included the meager numbers like, 37% of mexicans, and 17% of canadians.

What if i decided to post my own news article about the MAJORITY and not the minority to grasp for views.  63% of mexicans, 83% of canadians, and 87% of americans completely disagree with your article.  Clever how you can make things look one sided aint it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 23, 2015, 03:07:04 am
Who even cares what the "public" thinks about something? Maybe 10% are voting based on something other than their "gut feeling." Hating America is what the cool kids do right now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:17:20 am
Quote from: Kalam on February 23, 2015, 01:57:41 am
So...World War III Y/N?
Yes, I wonder why some european politics don't care when they blame some other countries(Syria, Iran, North Korea, Russia). Especially small countries, don't they know that 1 topol-m is enough to blow up their countries 3 times or they think that it will never happen, all the weapon one day will be used. In Russia you have places to hide, because of territory. But in Europe you don't. Really I see many stupid politics in Europe, at least I see how they try to be brave on public, but in fact they don't. I think if Baiden were a president, there would be a world war already
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 08:37:45 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:17:20 am
Yes, I wonder why some european politics don't care when they blame some other countries(Syria, Iran, North Korea, Russia). Especially small countries, don't they know that 1 topol-m is enough to blow up their countries 3 times or they think that it will never happen, all the weapon one day will be used. In Russia you have places to hide, because of territory. But in Europe you don't. Really I see many stupid politics in Europe, at least I see how they try to be brave on public, but in fact they don't. I think if Baiden were a president, there would be a world war already
I don't even... :)

You just sounded like one other (well, maybe a FEW other) morons in this thread, who are telling "russia is not agressive, it only defends" and then go about "you have to hit neighbors in the face from time to time to keep good relationships". The fuck is wrong with your head?

Then there is the line "I wonder why everyone else goes about blaming Syria, Iran, North Korea, Russia". WELL, lets see:
1. Syria - because there is a fucking dictator in power. It's enough for me. Although - judging from current world involvement - one bunch of morons is slaugtering another bunch there, and only normal ones suffer. So really - why should anyone care about normal people suffering. Especially if they are in imaginary influence zone of russia?
2. Iran - last I heard - there are negotiations. Ant the reason is basically the same, why russia agreed to guarantee independence, sovereignty and borders of Ukraine: nuclear non-proliferation. IF russia did not have its share of those - noone would care about your shithole. Well... maybe a bit. Because you have gas and oil. Otherwise - shithole.
3. North Korea - when even their allies China say, that blowing up underground nukes is bad - one has to ask - is it really good? But I guess you don't have to ask, your "media" already answered that for you.
4. russia... besides other points - your oppinion along the lines "don't you understand that you can be blown away anytime" is a perfect illustration why russia is to blame regarding the creation of HUGE instability. Thats besides acting like a spoiled brat with delusions of grandeur.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 10:41:15 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:17:20 am
Yes, I wonder why some european politics don't care when they blame some other countries(Syria, Iran, North Korea, Russia). Especially small countries, don't they know that 1 topol-m is enough to blow up their countries 3 times or they think that it will never happen, all the weapon one day will be used. In Russia you have places to hide, because of territory. But in Europe you don't. Really I see many stupid politics in Europe, at least I see how they try to be brave on public, but in fact they don't. I think if Baiden were a president, there would be a world war already

Soooo, your point is that european politicians should shut up and crawl into a corner all scared, because they can easly be destroyed by nukes, unlike Russia, which is to big to be destroyed? Russia big, should not be scared of anything. :lol: God...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 10:43:05 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 08:37:45 am
I don't even... :)

You just sounded like one other (well, maybe a FEW other) morons in this thread, who are telling "russia is not agressive, it only defends" and then go about "you have to hit neighbors in the face from time to time to keep good relationships". The fuck is wrong with your head?

Then there is the line "I wonder why everyone else goes about blaming Syria, Iran, North Korea, Russia". WELL, lets see:
1. Syria - because there is a fucking dictator in power. It's enough for me. Although - judging from current world involvement - one bunch of morons is slaugtering another bunch there, and only normal ones suffer. So really - why should anyone care about normal people suffering. Especially if they are in imaginary influence zone of russia?
2. Iran - last I heard - there are negotiations. Ant the reason is basically the same, why russia agreed to guarantee independence, sovereignty and borders of Ukraine: nuclear non-proliferation. IF russia did not have its share of those - noone would care about your shithole. Well... maybe a bit. Because you have gas and oil. Otherwise - shithole.
3. North Korea - when even their allies China say, that blowing up underground nukes is bad - one has to ask - is it really good? But I guess you don't have to ask, your "media" already answered that for you.
4. russia... besides other points - your oppinion along the lines "don't you understand that you can be blown away anytime" is a perfect illustration why russia is to blame regarding the creation of HUGE instability. Thats besides acting like a spoiled brat with delusions of grandeur.
Nice, stupid answer.
1) Syria, lol dictator, I think you just heard about it, Lukashenko is dictator too, even though he is under sanctions from USA, because of that, and his son under sanctions too, but he is not in politics. Bot people of Syria and Belarus supports their presidents. Well who cares what people thinks, especially people like toy Kuujis, right? Also such countries like China (dictator), Saudi Arabia and so on
2) Iran the reason is the same as with India, China, Hungary. Maybe somebody wants to destabilize this countries?
3) Stupid answer, my media didn't say anything, only the fact of testings. Your media seems tries to condemn him. That's why I said that some your politics are stupid, instead of dialog they chose condemning. Stupid in fact.
4) I just asked why are they so stupid? Before Ukraine crysis there were the same. At least I can see how Europe and USA acts according actions in Georgia in 2008, where I was wounded, I think you Kuujis have never been on the war. I remember sanctions against Russia, I remember fake propoganda from EU and USA, I saw what weapons Georgia used, american Hammers for example. So now your TV shows only one side of conflict and this doesn't surprise me
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 11:00:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 10:43:05 am
Nice, stupid answer.
1) Syria, lol dictator, I think you just heard about it, Lukashenko is dictator too, even though he is under sanctions from USA, because of that, and his son under sanctions too, but he is not in politics. Bot people of Syria and Belarus supports their presidents. Well who cares what people thinks, especially people like toy Kuujis, right? Also such countries like China (dictator), Saudi Arabia and so on
2) Iran the reason is the same as with India, China, Hungary. Maybe somebody wants to destabilize this countries?
3) Stupid answer, my media didn't say anything, only the fact of testings. Your media seems tries to condemn him. That's why I said that some your politics are stupid, instead of dialog they chose condemning. Stupid in fact.
4) I just asked why are they so stupid? Before Ukraine crysis there were the same. At least I can see how Europe and USA acts according actions in Georgia in 2008, where I was wounded, I think you Kuujis have never been on the war. I remember sanctions against Russia, I remember fake propoganda from EU and USA, I saw what weapons Georgia used, american Hammers for example. So now your TV shows only one side of conflict and this doesn't surprise me

#1 Please try to identify differences between Belarus and russia. One is content siting on its own pile of dung and another shithole wants to export its shithole'ness to other countries under some "russian shit-world" flag. Yeah... totally comparable. /irony.
#2 So you think nuclear-nonproliferation is not an issue. You may have your oppinion, good luck with that. I just hope everyone else will learn from Ukraine being stabbed in the back by russia, which guaranteed its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity IN RETURN for giving its nuclear stuff away. Give ISIS the nukes, then welcome them to some emyrate of Chechnya. Good luck with that  :lol:
#3 I seem to remember another country, which is condemning, asking for negotiations and then sending in tanks, troops and arms to "enforce" the negotiations on THEIR terms... can you help me with the memory thingy? Nice please? HINT - its your fucking shithole called russia. Of which you are proud :D I just wonder of which part... the smelly one or the non existent one?  :rolleyes:
4#Oh poor you, you got wounded... that gives you ... what? some EXTRA knowledge of how fucked-up west is? So just to get this straight: you get wounded in the conflict, which was provoked by russia (even if actually started by hot-heads in Georgia), and then west is to be blamed about this. This is one EPIC piece of russian shit-logic.

ALSO - according to latest news - in europe they RAPE DOGS, tru story. Hope this will add to your "extra" knowledge due to being wounded in YET ANOTHER russia created conflict.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 23, 2015, 11:31:00 am
"In Russia you have places to hide because of territory"... yeah, not. Pretty sure 8000 nukes will be enough to blanket Russia and assure total destruction...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on February 23, 2015, 11:38:14 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:17:20 am
In Russia you have places to hide, because of territory.

I stay out of these silly threads because they are literally Russians throwing their balls in the air and seeing who they fall on but this was too lol.

Nicko, you understand, right, that if there is a nuclear war, MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, some Kangaroos in the middle of Australia, some Swiss, and maybe some Kapibaras deep, deep in the rainforest are the ONLY survivors, right? There would be not one single centimetre of Russia that wasnt knee deep in mushroom clouds and loudly complaining geiger counters. The idea that ANY country that would be a target would have any survivors is laughable and childish, now get some real perspective: in the event of nuclear war, that is MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction, its the reason smart people get to lead countries and not dumb cunts like you. Now stfu, lock this joke of a thread, and all of you little shitcunts go back to school, learn some basic shit you fucking dumbass oligarchs kids, daddy wont be there forever time to get your shit together Russia.

EDIT: I cannot spell even simple words it seems. Full Derp.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 12:16:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 10:43:05 am
Nice, stupid answer.
1) Syria, lol dictator, I think you just heard about it, Lukashenko is dictator too, even though he is under sanctions from USA, because of that, and his son under sanctions too, but he is not in politics. Bot people of Syria and Belarus supports their presidents. Well who cares what people thinks, especially people like toy Kuujis, right? Also such countries like China (dictator), Saudi Arabia and so on
2) Iran the reason is the same as with India, China, Hungary. Maybe somebody wants to destabilize this countries?

The people of Belarus definately love their president in a same matter that North-Korean people love theirs, despite being practically a nation of oppressed slaves and not citizens. Also im quite certain the people in Syria dont love their president either and if they do, its because of desperation, cause if Assad gets overthrown, Taliban and every other terroristorganisation is gonna call dibs. So its conditional love. Like for instance, everybody in the West hates their own governments, yet they would chose them over Assad, Lukashenko or Putin forever.

Also I dont know why US has such grudge against Iran. Its your typical opressive muslim country. And the only country that wants to destabilize Hungary is Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 23, 2015, 12:19:03 pm
Quote from: BlindGuy on February 23, 2015, 11:38:14 am
I stay out of these silly threads because they are literally Russians throwing their balls in the air and seeing who they fall on but this was too lol.

Nicko, you understand, right, that if there is a nuclear war, MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, some Kangaroos in the middle of Australia, some Swiss, and maybe some Kapibaras deep, deep in the rainforest are the ONLY survivors, right? There would be not one single centimetre of Russia that wasnt knee deep in mushroom clouds and loudly complaining geiger counters. The idea that ANY country that would be a target would have any survivors is laughable and childish, now get some real perspective: in the event of nuclear war, that is MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction, its the reason smart people get to lead countries and not dumb cunts like you. Now stfu, lock this joke of a thread, and all of you little shitcunts go back to school, learn some basic shit you fucking dumbass oligarchs kids, daddy wont be there forever time to get your shit together Russia.

EDIT: I cannot spell even simple words it seems. Full Derp.
It's no coincidence that the stalwart defenders of mother Russia in this thread are tragically confused when it comes to... literally everything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on February 23, 2015, 12:21:05 pm
Well, it isn't their fault Xant, idoctrination WORKS, its no secret, its the force behind Nationalism, Religion, and pop music. Its just sad that so many are so indoctrinated that you cannot ever get them to the sweet fresh air that is original thought.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 12:25:07 pm
Man so patriotic that he thinks he's country can survive atomic bombs. Thats some new level alright.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BlindGuy on February 23, 2015, 12:49:34 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 12:25:07 pm
Man so patriotic that he thinks he's country can survive atomic bombs. Thats some new level alright.

Actually made me chuckle out loud, alone in room. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2015, 03:45:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:17:20 am
In Russia you have places to hide, because of territory. But in Europe you don't.

nigga you just went full retard
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 03:51:12 pm
lol, you comletely missed, what I said. Anyone is here who is not that blind? Blindguy, I think USA were ruled by dumb cunt  like me, when they used nuclear bomb. Anyway I never said about using nuclear bomb, but might happen oneday. No need all to bomb all Russia, if you think that NATO will bomb forests, then you dumb. But one bomb is enough to destroy almost any country in EU
Kuujis I think you need to take a courses about logic, you are talking absolutely different things. If you think that Georgia was a provokation, then Saakashvili is not that smart, but they prepared for this war for 10 years. I don't know the all truth, you as always top of the truth, that you knew from your TV. I think you would say that Russia provoked Ukraine because of that ukranian army shelled civilian cities. Georgia asked Ukarine to return Saakashvili, because he is guiltiy in robbing and murders, Ukraine refused it. What irony. Interesting does your TV show how much civilians were killed after shellings, any sanctions, I think they can't punish themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2015, 04:08:24 pm
You know nuclear warheads have different effects (aftermath) than a normal bomb right?

Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 03:51:12 pm
if you think that NATO will bomb forests, then you dumb. But one bomb is enough to destroy almost any country in EU

Good to know you are in touch with NATO High Command. Tell them I say hi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 04:17:27 pm
Your claim sounds even more retarded if its put back into context. That EU countries politicians should be silent and not talk at all cause it can easly be bombed. We all know damn well that even if one tiniest NATO nation gets nuclear bombed to shit, the whole world will get nuclear bombed to shit. Not even Russia, "the place that has hidingplaces", is gonna survive that. Lots of fucking good will your plentyful forests and mountains do, when there are radioactive clouds circling the planet for 100s of years.

Get out of here stalker.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 04:29:42 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 04:17:27 pm
Your claim sounds even more retarded if its put back into context. That EU countries politicians should be silent and not talk at all cause it can easly be bombed. We all know damn well that even if one tiniest NATO nation gets nuclear bombed to shit, the whole world will get nuclear bombed to shit. Not even Russia, "the place that has hidingplaces", is gonna survive that. Lots of fucking good will your plentyful forests and mountains do, when there are radioactive clouds circling the planet for 100s of years.

Get out of here stalker.
Not silent, but they don't know how to behave properly. And instead of choosing dialog, EU chose sanctions and condemning so it will bring war much faster. Really they don't know the mentallity of russians
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 04:29:49 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 03:51:12 pm
lol, you comletely missed, what I said. Anyone is here who is not that blind? Blindguy, I think USA were ruled by dumb cunt  like me, when they used nuclear bomb. Anyway I never said about using nuclear bomb, but might happen oneday. No need all to bomb all Russia, if you think that NATO will bomb forests, then you dumb. But one bomb is enough to destroy almost any country in EU
Kuujis I think you need to take a courses about logic, you are talking absolutely different things. If you think that Georgia was a provokation, then Saakashvili is not that smart, but they prepared for this war for 10 years. I don't know the all truth, you as always top of the truth, that you knew from your TV. I think you would say that Russia provoked Ukraine because of that ukranian army shelled civilian cities. Georgia asked Ukarine to return Saakashvili, because he is guiltiy in robbing and murders, Ukraine refused it. What irony. Interesting does your TV show how much civilians were killed after shellings, any sanctions, I think they can't punish themselves.
MAYBE I missed you going full retarded (although I'm not sure about that, since other noticed that too  :rolleyes: ), but what YOU have missed is that russia started an undeclared war in Ukraine and that rUSSIA is the cause of all the civilians who die, because the morons you support hide behind the backs of civilians who then incidentally get killed or brainwashed by the same state controlled russian media.

But yeah, go ahead and blam NATO, EU, jews, naztees, Obama, yo mama (so fat incidentally), NWO, Tovi (too dumb to take responsibility for anything), zombie planes being sent as provocations and THEN something else. ANYTHING but your own shit-hole of a country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 04:36:44 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 04:29:49 pm
MAYBE I missed you going full retarded (although I'm not sure about that, since other noticed that too  :rolleyes: ), but what YOU have missed is that russia started an undeclared war in Ukraine and that rUSSIA is the cause of all the civilians who die, because the morons you support hide behind the backs of civilians who then incidentally get killed or brainwashed by the same state controlled russian media.

But yeah, go ahead and blam NATO, EU, jews, naztees, Obama, yo mama (so fat incidentally), NWO, Tovi (too dumb to take responsibility for anything), zombie planes being sent as provocations and THEN something else. ANYTHING but your own shit-hole of a country.
What again shows only one side of view, you can be so easily propoganded. That what I meant about behavior of some EU politics, just watch Kuujis.
BTW what country do you live? My government is asking)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2015, 04:39:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 04:29:42 pm
Really they don't know the mentallity of russians

They know.

That's why they don't discuss anything with them.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 05:00:30 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 04:36:44 pm
What again shows only one side of view, you can be so easily propoganded. That what I meant about behavior of some EU politics, just watch Kuujis.
BTW what country do you live? My government is asking)
Speaking from your ivory shit-tower of truth and unbiased information sources, eh? ;)

I live in Lithuania and I remember all to well the days when we were fighting for our independence and that after we got it - our family suddenly started liking grechka A LOT for A LONG time + since there was no coal to heat water - we (and our family friends) built a sauna in the back of our yard, so we could NOT smell like russians. So yeah, I know the shit-hole we got out of first hand, thank you.

There was this funny interview in this town https://www.google.lt/maps/place/Visaginas/@55.5977216,26.4320063,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x46c2c9342d2c0a35:0x400d18c70e9dbd0?hl=lt (predominantly russian speaking, as it was a place of Lithuania's NPP, which was build by soviets during CCCP era, thus - a bunch of russians were imported to build, maintain and operate it).
"Do you support russia?"
"OFC we do, look at the terrible things that Ukraine is doing to its people, its all over the (russian) news!"
"Do you feel oppressed and need help by russia?"
"God forbid no. On both accounts."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:02:50 pm
Quote from: Christo on February 23, 2015, 04:39:05 pm
They know.

That's why they don't discuss anything with them.  :lol:
Well, will see what will happen. I hope they know what they are doing. At least Russia will turn to the to BRIC completely. All East of Europe, Latin America and Africa are ready to discuss.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 23, 2015, 05:03:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 22, 2015, 11:28:10 pm
Be sure that if my country was at war I would not playing cRPG...

Do I even play crpg? When did you see me in game last time? If your country was at war - you would personally surrender to Russia even if it didn't take part in it. I'm seriously curious what you do for your living. Don't tell me because I'm afraid to lose any faith in France if you have a job any wealthier than a janitor in local junk food cafe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 05:04:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 04:29:42 pm
Not silent, but they don't know how to behave properly. And instead of choosing dialog, EU chose sanctions and condemning so it will bring war much faster. Really they don't know the mentallity of russians
Choosing dialog? They did choose dialog. The menality of European leaders is always to chose dialog and nothing else. And that exactly is the problem. Europe wants to talk to do too much and thats why countries like Russia keep annexing lands without fear. The fact that Russia did something that made Europe do something more than dialog, is very suprising.

Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:02:50 pm
Well, will see what will happen. I hope they know what they are doing. At least Russia will turn to the to BRIC completely. All East of Europe, Latin America and Africa are ready to discuss.

You do realise Brazil is not all of Latin America, nor is South-Africa all of africa and nor is Russia all of East of Europe? Look at this poor bastard. He is trying to make his country look more relevant and loved by bending geographical facts.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:11:41 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 05:04:47 pm
Choosing dialog? They did choose dialog. The menality of European leaders is always to chose dialog and nothing else. And that exactly is the problem. Europe wants to talk to do too much and thats why countries like Russia keep annexing lands without fear. The fact that Russia did something that made Europe do something more than dialog, is very suprising.
When Ukraine wanted to join EU and Russia asked to discuss this, because this joining is against current agreements between Russia and Ukraine EU said it is not your business. You mean this is dialog? Anyway that was about geopolitics not about people
Quote from: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 05:04:47 pm
You do realise Brazil is not all of Latin America, nor is South-Africa all of africa and nor is Russia all of East of Europe? Look at this poor bastard. He is trying to make his country look more relevant and loved by bending geographical facts.  :lol:
Tibe, I thought you are clever then Kuujis, where did I said that only Brasil or South-Africa or Russia? Be more attentive
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 05:13:52 pm
So that gives Russia the right to annex lands at the center of Europe? And we dont actually know if there was a dialog or a how there was a discussion. Your media claims one thing, mine the other. None the less, the undeniable fact is that Russia annexed lands in Europe, which is a massive crime.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 23, 2015, 05:15:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:11:41 pm
When Ukraine wanted to join EU and Russia asked to discuss this, because this joining is against current agreements between Russia and Ukraine EU said it is not your business. You mean this is dialog? Anyway that was about geopolitics not about people

Can you quote agreements that didn't allow Ukraine joining EU? Ukraine wasn't even an official member of CIS AFAIK, Ukraine never signed it. Was a member of it de-facto, not de-jure. Even then, please show it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:17:54 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 05:13:52 pm
So that gives Russia the right to annex lands at the center of Europe?
No, I don't agree with Crimea joining, but as I say people in Crimea even they are propoganded wanted to join Russia. And some huge politics in Ukraine wanted to remove military bases in Crimea. So geopolitics again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:23:52 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 23, 2015, 05:15:05 pm
Can you quote agreements that didn't allow Ukraine joining EU? Ukraine wasn't even an official member of CIS AFAIK, Ukraine never signed it. Was a member of it de-facto, not de-jure. Even then, please show it.
there is no agreements that didn't allow to join, but there is some problems with trade cooperation, what documents about trade cooperation I think you can google it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 23, 2015, 05:32:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:11:41 pm
Tibe, I thought you are clever then Kuujis, where did I said that only Brasil or South-Africa or Russia? Be more attentive

Thats cause you read it wrong.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 23, 2015, 05:43:56 pm
FSS RF (FSB) made propaganda movie "share vegetable oil to 15 hryvnia in Ternopil '
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 07:46:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:23:52 pm
there is no agreements that didn't allow to join, but there is some problems with trade cooperation, what documents about trade cooperation I think you can google it
And...? That is supposed to justify all the bullshit that your shit-nation created? All the lives lost? Over "some problems about trade cooperation"?

You know what putler REALLY feared out of all this? That Ukraine would suddenly become next Poland or the baltics. Even the CHANCE of it is unacceptable, because the myth of "slavs being unable to live without stronk tzar hand" would collapse fucking putler and his cleptocracy in the ass along the way. THATS why your brotherly nation is being fucked by your brainwashed coward compatriots.

Oh, and you are being "proud of the nation" but not the "cleptocracy" in power. So again - what was it that you were proud of? This shit? For real? This?

THIS is how this thread feels unfortunately...
http://nobsrussia.com/2015/02/19/failure-to-communicate/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 08:11:28 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 07:46:29 pm
And...? That is supposed to justify all the bullshit that your shit-nation created? All the lives lost? Over "some problems about trade cooperation"?

You know what putler REALLY feared out of all this? That Ukraine would suddenly become next Poland or the baltics. Even the CHANCE of it is unacceptable, because the myth of "slavs being unable to live without stronk tzar hand" would collapse fucking putler and his cleptocracy in the ass along the way. THATS why your brotherly nation is being fucked by your brainwashed coward compatriots.

Oh, and you are being "proud of the nation" but not the "cleptocracy" in power. So again - what was it that you were proud of? This shit? For real? This?
You are too far to understand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 08:46:34 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 08:11:28 pm
You are too far to understand.
:PLOT TWIST:
Or are YOU (and ofc your shit-nation of sheeple) too far?

:P

A.k.a. the Vovka maneuver a.k.a. "no u"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 08:52:04 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 08:46:34 pm
:PLOT TWIST:
Or are YOU (and ofc your shit-nation of sheeple) too far?

:P

A.k.a. the Vovka maneuver a.k.a. "no u"  :rolleyes:
No just didn't want to waste time on you, because you will not understand anyway. Your logic suffers too much
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 23, 2015, 09:49:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:23:52 pm
there is no agreements that didn't allow to join, but there is some problems with trade cooperation, what documents about trade cooperation I think you can google it

Please quote them. I ask it because I know that you're speaking about wrong stuff. You're speaking about TS (Tamozhennyi Soyuz = Eurasian Customs Union), which Ukraine didn't join and didn't want to.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 24, 2015, 12:13:51 am
Quote from: Kalam on February 23, 2015, 01:57:41 am
So...World War III Y/N?

not now, in 10-15 years yes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 24, 2015, 12:32:19 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 10:43:05 am
Nice, stupid answer.
1) Syria, lol dictator, I think you just heard about it, Lukashenko is dictator too, even though he is under sanctions from USA, because of that, and his son under sanctions too, but he is not in politics. Bot people of Syria and Belarus supports their presidents.Well who cares what people thinks, especially people like toy Kuujis, right? Also such countries like China (dictator), Saudi Arabia and so on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War
https://www.google.com/search?q=syrian+civil+war&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=syrian+civil+war&tbm=nws

WTF. I never knew that people who liked their leaders started rebellions to kill/get rid of them! Must be a "Only in Russia" thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on February 24, 2015, 01:41:45 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 23, 2015, 08:37:45 am
I don't even... :)

You just sounded like one other (well, maybe a FEW other) morons in this thread, who are telling "russia is not agressive, it only defends" and then go about "you have to hit neighbors in the face from time to time to keep good relationships". The fuck is wrong with your head?

Then there is the line "I wonder why everyone else goes about blaming Syria, Iran, North Korea, Russia". WELL, lets see:
1. Syria - because there is a fucking dictator in power. It's enough for me. Although - judging from current world involvement - one bunch of morons is slaugtering another bunch there, and only normal ones suffer. So really - why should anyone care about normal people suffering. Especially if they are in imaginary influence zone of russia?
2. Iran - last I heard - there are negotiations. Ant the reason is basically the same, why russia agreed to guarantee independence, sovereignty and borders of Ukraine: nuclear non-proliferation. IF russia did not have its share of those - noone would care about your shithole. Well... maybe a bit. Because you have gas and oil. Otherwise - shithole.
3. North Korea - when even their allies China say, that blowing up underground nukes is bad - one has to ask - is it really good? But I guess you don't have to ask, your "media" already answered that for you.
4. russia... besides other points - your oppinion along the lines "don't you understand that you can be blown away anytime" is a perfect illustration why russia is to blame regarding the creation of HUGE instability. Thats besides acting like a spoiled brat with delusions of grandeur.

The issue is that these are smaller countries and lumping them in with Russia is what's wrong. Russia is a real threat, from an American standpoint. North Korea is not. Iran is currently not. Syria is not.

 Let's use a playground analogy.

There are many kids in a playground. Some are larger than others. A few kids are not only large, but they're packing pistols in their lunchboxes. Most kids fight, beat each other up, and that's that. For a long time, two- Lucas and Roman, faced off against each other. Lucas would pay smaller kids to beat up other small kids who got free toys from Roman, and vice versa. One day, Roman got tired and sort of got put in detention.

Lucas declared he won, and acted as if he was king of the playground. He's so used to it that by the time he's in high school, he's lumped Roman in with the other kids. Roman knows he's better, though, he remembers a time when he was just as much of a force to be reckoned with as Lucas is. And now, Lucas is pushing Roman around just like Roman is one of the many small kids.

Lucas has picked several fights with small kids, smashing their heads in and no one has really questioned or challenged him.

Roman remembers the old days, and figures it's time to pick a fight with Lucas. He threatens some of the other small kids to rejoin his cause. Lucas laughs at him and keeps egging him on, so Roman threatens more of his old crew. Lucas is still making fun of him.

Until he starts to realize that Roman also has a pistol. He's not like the other kids Lucas has been beating up on. Roman is his size. AND HE'S GOT A PISTOL, JUST LIKE LUCAS.

Whether Lucas or Roman is a nicer friend is beyond the point.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 24, 2015, 03:06:24 am
Quote from: Kalam on February 24, 2015, 01:41:45 am
The issue is that these are smaller countries and lumping them in with Russia is what's wrong. Russia is a real threat, from an American standpoint. North Korea is not. Iran is currently not. Syria is not.

 Let's use a playground analogy.

There are many kids in a playground. Some are larger than others. A few kids are not only large, but they're packing pistols in their lunchboxes. Most kids fight, beat each other up, and that's that. For a long time, two- Lucas and Roman, faced off against each other. Lucas would pay smaller kids to beat up other small kids who got free toys from Roman, and vice versa. One day, Roman got tired and sort of got put in detention.

Lucas declared he won, and acted as if he was king of the playground. He's so used to it that by the time he's in high school, he's lumped Roman in with the other kids. Roman knows he's better, though, he remembers a time when he was just as much of a force to be reckoned with as Lucas is. And now, Lucas is pushing Roman around just like Roman is one of the many small kids.

Lucas has picked several fights with small kids, smashing their heads in and no one has really questioned or challenged him.

Roman remembers the old days, and figures it's time to pick a fight with Lucas. He threatens some of the other small kids to rejoin his cause. Lucas laughs at him and keeps egging him on, so Roman threatens more of his old crew. Lucas is still making fun of him.

Until he starts to realize that Roman also has a pistol. He's not like the other kids Lucas has been beating up on. Roman is his size. AND HE'S GOT A PISTOL, JUST LIKE LUCAS.

Whether Lucas or Roman is a nicer friend is beyond the point.
nice analogy, i think u are from murika XD
 
also
u can join now  :P
http://i-army.org/
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 24, 2015, 03:32:33 am
Congratulations to you, rookie Vladimir!

Connected Forces Headquarters Information Ukraine.

Your first task will be very simple.

Invite your closest and most trusted friends to the site Information viysk Ukraine - i-army.org, where they join the army - subscribe to newsletters daily tasks. This is important in view of our information fight against external aggressors.

Wait soon for the next task.

To touch!

-
Sincerely,
Staff Information Forces of Ukraine


i bet my next task will be send SMS on short number XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 07:17:49 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 23, 2015, 09:49:38 pm
Please quote them. I ask it because I know that you're speaking about wrong stuff. You're speaking about TS (Tamozhennyi Soyuz = Eurasian Customs Union), which Ukraine didn't join and didn't want to.
Yes you are right about TS, but there were other trade agreements
 for example
http://www.businesspravo.ru/Docum/DocumShow_DocumID_54925.html
http://www.lawmix.ru/abrolaw/11581
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 08:36:37 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 07:17:49 am
Yes you are right about TS, but there were other trade agreements
 for example
http://www.businesspravo.ru/Docum/DocumShow_DocumID_54925.html
http://www.lawmix.ru/abrolaw/11581
So just to make it double sure - you find, that some "other trade agreements" (obviously the Customs Union is out of the picture now :) ) are worth creating all this mess in Ukraine, given that it chose to go to EU?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 08:54:23 am
Quote from: Kalam on February 24, 2015, 01:41:45 am
<...>
Whether Lucas or Roman is a nicer friend is beyond the point.

While I agree with the rest of the post I find the last point to be more born of ignorance, than of reality. Have you been in countries, which are "in league" with Roman? I've been, I've seen those lunchboxes of Roman. I bet there are other that have been and seen too. Only the ones, who have not seen the lunchboxes that Lucas "pals" are eating would qualitatively compare the two. You can compare constant grechka with steaks only if you consider both to be "food and nothing more".

However misguided, mistaken or plain old wrong US or "west" is/are - they are simply on another level, and if one has a choice ... well, there actually is none. Hell, even putler and his closest friends have all their kids living/learning in the west, because ITS SIMPLY SAFER AND BETTER than in the shit-hole, that proud (not sure what about though) russians are calling russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 09:18:53 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 08:36:37 am
So just to make it double sure - you find, that some "other trade agreements" (obviously the Customs Union is out of the picture now :) ) are worth creating all this mess in Ukraine, given that it chose to go to EU?
Kuujis you missed it again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 09:24:49 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 23, 2015, 05:11:41 pm
When Ukraine wanted to join EU and Russia asked to discuss this, because this joining is against current agreements between Russia and Ukraine EU said it is not your business. You mean this is dialog? Anyway that was about geopolitics not about peopleTibe, I thought you are clever then Kuujis, where did I said that only Brasil or South-Africa or Russia? Be more attentive

Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 09:18:53 am
Kuujis you missed it again

You were supposed to provide links/identify agreements, which are SO SEVERE, that they would null and void Ukraine as a country and would allow russia this shameless land-grab coupled with this bullshit hybrid war (or maybe at least justify it?). So... are these the documents you linked?

Thats BESIDES the point, that russia poking its nose into business of sovereign nations is funny at best and russian-level-bullshit if speaking in real terms.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 09:50:36 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 09:24:49 am
You were supposed to provide links/identify agreements, which are SO SEVERE, that they would null and void Ukraine as a country and would allow russia this shameless land-grab coupled with this bullshit hybrid war (or maybe at least justify it?). So... are these the documents you linked?

Thats BESIDES the point, that russia poking its nose into business of sovereign nations is funny at best and russian-level-bullshit if speaking in real terms.
There were a lot of co-manufactures and links especially with Donbass. Joining EU will ruine all this cooperations. 6 mln people of Ukraine works in Russia and pay taxes to Ukraine. Now this will be ruined. Also joining EU will ruine allmost all production in Ukarine. And market will be fulled by better production from EU, so there won't be any economical independence in Ukraine for a long time. There is only one choise to migrate to EU and work there. But EU will not give jobs for them. If you can't understand this, that's OK. Because of that Yanukovich postponed a sighnment of agreement with EU.
Also I remember Lithuania was the leader in killing Jews, they killed 96-97% of Jews and started doing this before Germany occupied them. I think you are proud of this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 24, 2015, 10:02:18 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 09:50:36 am
There were a lot of co-manufactures and links especially with Donbass. Joining EU will ruine all this cooperations. 6 mln people of Ukraine works in Russia and pay taxes to Ukraine. Now this will be ruined. Also joining EU will ruine allmost all production in Ukarine. And market will be fulled by better production from EU, so there won't be any economical independence in Ukraine for a long time. There is only one choise to migrate to EU and work there. But EU will not give jobs for them. If you can't understand this, that's OK. Because of that Yanukovich postponed a sighnment of agreement with EU.
Also I remember Lithuania was the leader in killing Jews, they killed 96-97% of Jews and started doing this before Germany occupied them. I think you are proud of this.
And how exactly is that Russian business?
Besides, the whole thing went down a bit differently. Old government of Ukraine wanted to sign, Putin says No in TV, suddenly government says No too, Maidan happens...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 10:12:30 am
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2015, 10:02:18 am
And how exactly is that Russian business?
Besides, the whole thing went down a bit differently. Old government of Ukraine wanted to sign, Putin says No in TV, suddenly government says No too, Maidan happens...
Anyway EU didn't want to discuss Ukraine-Russia relations with Russia, And government said yes but later.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 24, 2015, 10:27:35 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 09:50:36 am
There were a lot of co-manufactures and links especially with Donbass. Joining EU will ruine all this cooperations. 6 mln people of Ukraine works in Russia and pay taxes to Ukraine. Now this will be ruined. Also joining EU will ruine allmost all production in Ukarine. And market will be fulled by better production from EU, so there won't be any economical independence in Ukraine for a long time. There is only one choise to migrate to EU and work there. But EU will not give jobs for them. If you can't understand this, that's OK. Because of that Yanukovich postponed a sighnment of agreement with EU.
No country ever became poorer by leaving Russias arms and joining EU.

And your general point was "Ukrainians were producing shit and selling it to the Eastern market, now that they are EU, they are getting better products and thereby no longer able to sell their own shit." Which is a completely bananas claim. If they were only able to stay afloat because the Eastern market has lower standards, than they were bound to hit rockbottom eventually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 10:38:52 am
Quote from: Tibe on February 24, 2015, 10:27:35 am
No country ever became poorer by leaving Russias arms and joining EU.

And your general point was "Ukrainians were producing shit and selling it to the Eastern market, now that they are EU, they are getting better products and thereby no longer able to sell their own shit." Which is a completely bananas claim. If they were only able to stay afloat because the Eastern market has lower standards, than they were bound to hit rockbottom eventually.
Greece didn't leave Russia, but they became poorer. I think Ukraine will be worse.
I said that EU, Ukraine and Russia had to discuss their relations, EU refused it. And what are you talking about? I said that agreement with EU will ruine national production in Ukraine and also will ruine economical relation with Russia, that is happening. What you didn't understand?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 24, 2015, 10:51:26 am
I thought youd say Greece, thats why I bloody specified. Countries that left Russia or are related to Russia is the topic. Greece is unrelated atm.

What makes you think EU refused? Who told you EU refused? If anything Russia is infamous for not discussing but acting. But im gonna give it a benefit of the doubt none the less.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 11:03:14 am
Quote from: Tibe on February 24, 2015, 10:51:26 am
I thought youd say Greece, thats why I bloody specified. Countries that left Russia or are related to Russia is the topic. Greece is unrelated atm.

What makes you think EU refused? Who told you EU refused? If anything Russia is infamous for not discussing but acting. But im gonna give it a benefit of the doubt none the less.
Yeah Greece was predictable. Anyway communism was a stupid thing, and countries that were in USSR can't become worse then they were.
EU refused to discuss joining of Ukraine to EU with Russia. It is simple.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 11:09:38 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 09:50:36 am
There were a lot of co-manufactures and links especially with Donbass. Joining EU will ruine all this cooperations. 6 mln people of Ukraine works in Russia and pay taxes to Ukraine. Now this will be ruined. Also joining EU will ruine allmost all production in Ukarine. And market will be fulled by better production from EU, so there won't be any economical independence in Ukraine for a long time. There is only one choise to migrate to EU and work there. But EU will not give jobs for them. If you can't understand this, that's OK. Because of that Yanukovich postponed a sighnment of agreement with EU.
Also I remember Lithuania was the leader in killing Jews, they killed 96-97% of Jews and started doing this before Germany occupied them. I think you are proud of this.
How is ANY of this russias business worthy of a friggin WAR? You have so much pity for Ukrainians, that you are willing to justify fucking WAR against them? What kind of logic is that? If they WANT to do this - good for them. If they will suffer for it - its their business. Why wage war on them? They have internal problems aplenty.

And dont kid yourself - Yanukovich posponed signing the deal AFTER puler said on the news, that Ukraine should not sign it :) Strange... you don't sound so naive. Maybe I was wrong :)

Oh, and that nice watabautism you pulled out, appreciated :) My grandmother, who was hiding jews from persecution and our family friends jews who survived due to this appreciate you caring about this. I'm proud of what they did. As for the "track record of Lithuania" wrt handling of jews before and during WW2 - I'm ashamed. On the possitive side we have passed a law regarding reparations few years ago, I consider this case closed. Not sure what else I can do about it, besides learning from the painful history.

Do you learn from your history? Like... all the neighbors running from a friendly russian to whatever possible place? ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 11:14:30 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 11:03:14 am
Yeah Greece was predictable. Anyway communism was a stupid thing, and countries that were in USSR can't become worse then they were.
EU refused to discuss joining of Ukraine to EU with Russia. It is simple.
WHY should they discuss? Besides your threat of nukes, which was "going full retard" - why should anyone discuss anything with russia, given its abusive one-sided relationships with its neighbors?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 11:28:14 am
Quote from: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 11:09:38 am
How is ANY of this russias business worthy of a friggin WAR? You have so much pity for Ukrainians, that you are willing to justify fucking WAR against them? What kind of logic is that? If they WANT to do this - good for them. If they will suffer for it - its their business. Why wage war on them? They have internal problems aplenty.

And dont kid yourself - Yanukovich posponed signing the deal AFTER puler said on the news, that Ukraine should not sign it :) Strange... you don't sound so naive. Maybe I was wrong :)

Oh, and that nice watabautism you pulled out, appreciated :) My grandmother, who was hiding jews from persecution and our family friends jews who survived due to this appreciate you caring about this. I'm proud of what they did. As for the "track record of Lithuania" wrt handling of jews before and during WW2 - I'm ashamed. On the possitive side we have passed a law regarding reparations few years ago, I consider this case closed. Not sure what else I can do about it, besides learning from the painful history.

Do you learn from your history? Like... all the neighbors running from a friendly russian to whatever possible place? ;)
About history of course I learn, because my grandfather were killed by red army. I'm not proud of this and I condemn Stalin and his ruling, because he was the same as H itler. I know that your countries suffered to much from USSR, but Russia suffered too. Then stupid Eltsin who totally destroyed Russia in 90s by his ruling bilions of dollars went to EU and USA, BTW he was liked by USA very much.
And about war in Ukraine, just go to Donbass and ask people what they think. Or find on internet. My grandmother's pension in Kiev is 40 euros, and that what EU brings. At least she has an apartment in the center of Kiev, what gives her 2000 euros per mounth. Dont say about the war if you don't light both sides up. If I were ukranian I would be so dissapointed with Crimea and Donbass. But going there and killing other ukranians is too stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 11:31:34 am
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 11:28:14 am
About history of course I learn, because my grandfather were killed by red army. I'm not proud of this and I condemn Stalin and his ruling, because he was the same as H itler. I know that your countries suffered to much from USSR, but Russia suffered too. Then stupid Eltsin who totally destroyed Russia in 90s by his ruling bilions of dollars went to EU and USA, BTW he was liked by USA very much.
And about war in Ukraine, just go to Donbass and ask people what they think. Or find on internet. My grandmother's pension in Kiev is 40 euros, and that what EU brings. At least she has an apartment in the center of Kiev, what gives her 2000 euros per mounth. Dont say about the war if you don't light both sides up. If I were ukranian I would be so dissapointed with Crimea and Donbass. But going there and killing other ukranians is too stupid.
Dont say about the war if you don't light both sides up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 24, 2015, 11:58:56 am
Nicko is contradicting himself in every 2nd sentence, doesn't answer questions asked and keeps spewing his nonsense in here...

...I start to think it might be a 2nd account by Tovi. It's ridiculous and pointless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 24, 2015, 12:05:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 11:03:14 am
EU refused to discuss joining of Ukraine to EU with Russia. It is simple.
Okay, I unconditionally believe you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 12:27:18 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 11:31:34 am
Dont say about the war if you don't light both sides up.
Yep, absolutely.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 24, 2015, 12:33:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on February 24, 2015, 07:17:49 am
Yes you are right about TS, but there were other trade agreements
 for example
http://www.businesspravo.ru/Docum/DocumShow_DocumID_54925.html
http://www.lawmix.ru/abrolaw/11581

Did you read them before posting? What is it behind them besides the text about how they don't limit any agreements with other countries? Highlight the needed part then.
And it's funny how you speak about agreements after Russia annexed Crimea and tries to annex other parts of Ukraine  :lol: You only remember about papers when it's on your favour (mostly you wipe your ass with them).

I actually lol'd about you saying that joining EU would ruin Ukraine's economy. Surely all EU countries are just a bunch of bums with no money where people eat earth on breakfast. Unlike mighty Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 24, 2015, 12:51:00 pm
Quote from: Kalam on February 24, 2015, 01:41:45 am
Until he starts to realize that Roman also has a pistol. He's not like the other kids Lucas has been beating up on. Roman is his size. AND HE'S GOT A PISTOL, JUST LIKE LUCAS.
More like Roman is a skinny kid wearing big clothes and suffering from arthritis from all the times he used to beat his body against the wall, thinking it'd make him tough. He does have a pistol, though.

Russia is no threat to the US beyond nukes. Sadly, nukes are kind of a big deal.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on February 24, 2015, 01:00:10 pm
I just don't understand the whole point of "EU didn't discuss Ukraine's status with Russia". Okay, how do you imagine this?

EU: Ukraine is joining us. What do you think Russia?
Russia: It's none of our business, Ukraine has a right to decide on its own. (I quoted Putin here)
Ukraine: Yay! Thanks Russia, were you serious about that? So can we join EU?
Russia: No and no.
Ukraine: But...
Russia annexes Crimea
Ukraine: Wait!
Russia annexes Donetsk and Luhansk.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 24, 2015, 03:17:48 pm
Even made a worldball comic about it. :D

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 24, 2015, 03:31:59 pm
Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2015, 11:58:56 am
Nicko is contradicting himself in every 2nd sentence, doesn't answer questions asked and keeps spewing his nonsense in here...

...I start to think it might be a 2nd account by Tovi. It's ridiculous and pointless.

he just gets 2 rubles / post. soon he will buy volga aftomobil :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 03:43:32 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on February 24, 2015, 03:31:59 pm
he just gets 2 rubles / post. soon he will buy volga aftomobil :)
Not Volga, Volga is for the ruling party only. Zaporozhech is a better fit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on February 24, 2015, 07:13:27 pm

Quote from: DaveUKR on February 24, 2015, 01:00:10 pm
I just don't understand the whole point of "EU didn't discuss Ukraine's status with Russia". Okay, how do you imagine this?

EU: Ukraine is joining us. What do you think Russia?
Russia: It's none of our business, Ukraine has a right to decide on its own. (I quoted Putin here)
Ukraine: Yay! Thanks Russia, were you serious about that? So can we join EU?
Russia: No and no.
Ukraine: But...
Russia annexes Crimea
Ukraine: Wait!
Russia annexes Donetsk and Luhansk.

And it's your own, Ukraine fault that it happened. When "volunteers" attacked crimea you did nothing, didn't shoot a single bullet at them, gave away your bases, warships, so no wonder Russia decided they can do whatever they want with you. YOu gave them a finger, so they took whole hand. lel  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 24, 2015, 07:27:45 pm
And they will keep taking until whole Ukraine is theirs. Unless NATO decides to intervene, then Russia might back off. But there is a chance they might go full retard and scorch the whole planet. Which is why NATO left Ukraine on their own.

Bet that most Russian patriots believe that Ukraine is artificial state that one of their drunkard presidents created because he was wasted. Which implies they want it back.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 24, 2015, 07:55:57 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on February 24, 2015, 03:43:32 pm
Not Volga, Volga is for the ruling party only. Zaporozhech is a better fit.
nah. Zaporozhech it is now inomarka  in russian from the midle of europe (ukraine), so if u want to insult some oune u need too use "deviatka" or "lada kalina"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osiris on February 24, 2015, 10:06:31 pm
http://news.sky.com/story/1433447/british-infantry-in-ukraine-training-mission

Quote
British infantry will take part in a training mission in Ukraine, David Cameron has announced.

The military personnel will help train the Ukrainian army and supply tactical intelligence, the Prime Minister told MPs on the Liaison Committee.

Sky's Defence Correspondent Alistair Bunkall reports that around 75 British soldiers will go from the beginning of March and will be based in the west of the country, some of them for up to six months.

He said: "We are talking about medical training, infantry training, intelligence logistics and the like.

Im sure Russia are going to react well to the news
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 24, 2015, 11:15:03 pm
Quote from: Osiris on February 24, 2015, 10:06:31 pm
http://news.sky.com/story/1433447/british-infantry-in-ukraine-training-mission

Im sure Russia are going to react well to the news
I doubt Russia really cares. What difference does it make if a couple dozen British soldiers are training some Ukrainian soldiers?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 24, 2015, 11:37:01 pm
Their propaganda will work hard to maximize the meaning of this. But then again, you can't limit your actions because it would be abused by russian propaganda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 24, 2015, 11:44:59 pm
Well, yes, obviously they'll blow it out of proportion in the media and political dealings, but they won't actually care beyond that. What are the Brits going to do? Turn the whole Ukrainian army into battle-hardened super soldiers with their secret, well-guarded never-before-seen infantry tactics?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 25, 2015, 12:31:37 am
Quote from: Xant on February 24, 2015, 11:44:59 pm
Well, yes, obviously they'll blow it out of proportion in the media and political dealings, but they won't actually care beyond that. What are the Brits going to do? Turn the whole Ukrainian army into battle-hardened super soldiers with their secret, well-guarded never-before-seen infantry tactics?

The amusing (or disheartening) part is that some well-meaning Russian journalists will try to decrypt it as a NATO plot or something. You don't even need malice to make theories.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 25, 2015, 09:01:18 am
Just leaving this here, FYI so to say.
http://www.interpretermag.com/it-is-seen-as-correct-to-initiate-the-annexation-of-the-eastern-regions-of-ukraine-to-russia/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 25, 2015, 02:23:50 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 24, 2015, 11:44:59 pm
Well, yes, obviously they'll blow it out of proportion in the media and political dealings, but they won't actually care beyond that. What are the Brits going to do? Turn the whole Ukrainian army into battle-hardened super soldiers with their secret, well-guarded never-before-seen infantry tactics?
pretty sure they do not go there for free, so even if they are not turn the whole Ukrainian army into battle-hardened super soldiers with their secret, they still can earn a few million $$ by trying XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on February 25, 2015, 03:40:48 pm
$$ that those russian 'volunteers' I'm sure get some of as well, very nicely stiched up out there isn't it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 25, 2015, 11:43:07 pm
To our german speaking readers - what do these... err... singers (?) sink about?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 26, 2015, 12:10:20 am
Lemme put it this way: they're not much of a fan  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on February 26, 2015, 01:32:23 am
wah, they also insult your Bundesmutti. this is outrages. i think someone needs to be anschlussed again. :P

the main part is mostly about what happens in ukraine and the refrain about that is does not matter whether dictatur or democracy, the human sheeps only want to follow a strong leader.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on February 26, 2015, 03:57:11 pm
Wasn't sure about the thread... Trying here first.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 26, 2015, 06:15:24 pm
I liked how FIFA started its own investigation and found themselves not corrupt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Corwin on February 27, 2015, 11:24:54 pm
I wanted to share this quite sober and realistic analysis of situation, for both Russians and Ukrainians to see. Mostly because the article(s) is quite objective about the facts, and because it explains at least partially US point of view.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2015/01/22/u-s-should-stay-out-of-the-russo-ukrainian-quarrel-a-bakers-dozen-reasons-why-the-conflict-in-ukraine-is-not-americas-business-part-one/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/doug-bandow/seven-reasons-why-us-shou_b_6763732.html

Here are some highlights:

1) Ukraine isn’t important geopolitically.

It might come as a shock to Kiev’s strongest supporters, but Ukraine is not the center of the universe.
Ukraine is largely irrelevant to American security. The United States was founded, developed, and became a superpower all the while Ukraine was ruled from Moscow. Kiev’s future matters more to Europe, but even that connection is limited.

2) Russia matters more than Ukraine to America.

In January Russia signed an agreement with Iran for expanded defense cooperation, reportedly including long-delayed delivery of the S300 missile air defense system. This weapon could greatly complicate plans for an American or Israeli military strike on Iran.


This might be just the start. The Putin government could arm Syria with advanced missiles, defend Tehran against American and European pressure over its nuclear program, impede U.S. logistical operations in Afghanistan, provide advanced arms to North Korea, and transfer military technologies to China. Worse, Russia is pursuing a closer relationship with China; should that evolve into a serious anti-American axis, despite serious differences between the two states, much harm could result.

4)      Washington never guaranteed Ukraine’s security.

In short, Washington offered Ukraine no meaningful commitment to do anything practical to help Kiev in any circumstance. If the Clinton administration had intended to defend Ukraine, the former would have presented a treaty for Senate approval or forced through Kiev’s accession to NATO. But Washington was no more ready to go to war for Ukraine in 1994 than in 2014. Allied politicians offered high-sounding rhetoric rather than practical commitments. The Ukrainian government accepted what it could get, which was just a piece of paper.

5) Vladimir Putin is not einstein and Russia is not chocolate chip cookie Germany (or Stalin’s Soviet Union).

6)      There’s no genocide.

America must act to stop Russia from slaughtering helpless Ukrainians, some of Kiev’s most fervent advocates argue. The claim has emotional power, but is false. There have been an estimated 4800 deaths in the combat in the east. It’s a tragic toll, but includes Ukrainian separatists and loyalists, and Russians. When it comes to wars, that casualty list barely counts

8) Moscow has more at stake in Ukraine than the West has and will act accordingly.

In fact, the status of Ukraine matters far more to Moscow than to Washington. America has no interests of comparable strength regarding Ukraine. Imagine if the Soviet Union had proposed bringing Mexico into the Warsaw Pact after having helped oust a democratically elected government allied with America. Washington's reaction would have been swift, strong, and exceedingly hostile.

9)  Alliances should enhance U.S. security, not provide foreign charity.

Adding Ukraine (and Georgia) would be even more dangerous. Both have been at war with Russia. Both have had irresponsible political leadership. Both have an incentive to entangle the globe's superpower in their territorial disputes. Bringing them into NATO would dramatically degrade U.S. security by transforming minor conflicts irrelevant to Washington into potential military disputes between America and Russia.

10) A negotiated settlement is the only solution.

Ukrainians insist that Ukraine must be free to decide its own future. Yes, after the Second Coming, when the lion has lain down with the lamb. After people representing all the world's religions, ethnic groups, political philosophies, races, and everything else have joined together to sing "Kumbaya" around a global bonfire. [/b]After men and women again live in the Garden of Eden.



There is little reason to expect a Russia in crisis to be democratic and docile. Greater nationalism at home and adventurism abroad would be more likely. Western-style liberals would not be the natural beneficiaries of an implosion at home.

America and Europe should initiate discussions with Moscow, using sanctions as a negotiating tool rather than an endless penalty. A ceasefire should be policed by international monitors. Russia should acknowledge Ukraine's sovereignty and end military support for the rebels. Kiev should halt military operations and formalize further devolution of power on the Donbas. Ukraine should declare its military neutrality, endorsed by the West. Russia should accept Kiev's economic orientation both west and east.

Of course, Moscow also could say no. However, such an agreement would meet Putin's security concerns and halt Russia's economic slide. He is an authoritarian, not a fool. And if a diplomatic resolution is impossible, it is better to find out now than to do so only after suffering through an extended Cold War lite.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 28, 2015, 12:30:30 am
Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov shot dead (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061)

I don't like this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2015, 01:20:48 am
Quote
In a recent interview, Mr Nemtsov had said he feared Mr Putin would have him killed because of his opposition to the war in Ukraine.
Either he has considerable powers of divination, or Russia isn't a very safe place for journalists and political opposition of Putin. I wonder which.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on February 28, 2015, 03:12:48 am
What's this 50 b c? Theffuck?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 28, 2015, 04:00:10 am
Quote from: Christo on February 28, 2015, 12:30:30 am
Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov shot dead (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061)
I don't like this
that awkward moment when you're dead more useful for supporters than alive  :?
also he is dead as politician for decades
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2015, 05:29:07 am
Yes, CIA did it, obviously. Or the jews.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 28, 2015, 10:14:19 am
Thats what happens when a countries high power supports extreme nationalism and shakes hand of every biker gang skinhead who tattoos a russian flag on his back. I highly doubt he got assassinated by the government, the Russian government just likes to throw the opposition into prison, but they hardly actually kill anyone(these days). Quite possible, it was just another pro-rus skinhead doing it to save his precious Motherland.

Tbh, I dont really see the logic in pro-russianism. In its base form its strongly against na zis and nationalism. Which is fine, but the paradox here is that at the same time it promotes russian nationalism and creates pro-rus skinheads, who hate foreigners and homosexuals just as same. I dont really get it. Its just countering angry skinheads with your own angry skinheads.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on February 28, 2015, 10:30:21 am
Yeah, if Putin's government was behind it I'd expect a modicum of subtlety. More along the lines of polonium or unfortunate accident (plane crash, etc) than a public murder.
Concerning that article, the whole point of NATO was to contain the imperial ambitions of Russia in Europe. If the US thinks Russia is more important than a European country then the alliance is pointless. But we already knew NATO was centered entirely around american interests. The crocodile tears about the brave sacrifice and burden of protecting Europe has always been a load of propaganda bullshit. I agree it's not the US's problem, it's the EU's. As long as NATO exists the EU will never realize it's own potential.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 28, 2015, 02:40:21 pm
They used Polonium on Litvinenko because he was in foreign country. No need to use subtle methods on people residing in Russia, especially not now when propaganda is strong how whole world is against them. Probably done by some criminal thugs, but chances are that they were hired by FSB to kill. Our secret service did the same during 90s and they were trained by Soviets.

There is no patriotism here. Only crazy people kill for no reason, even skinheads and "patriots" kill for money.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 28, 2015, 03:02:21 pm
Well internet is already on fire, calling it CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy, as always.

Tomorrow's rally will be redirected to the place he got killed as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 28, 2015, 05:48:18 pm
   Yeah, CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy this is nonsense but FSB and putin is ok. nice logic.
1st of March was planned next color march. I am sure that it would come to very few people, like the previous one. They are losing popularity. Nemcov shittalks agains goverment since 90's, when he worked with Berezovsky, and sold the lives of our guys in Chechnya. 10days ago he given interyuvyu "I'm afraid Putin will kill me",  2 days before march and boom Putin deside kill him, perfect time.

 Now march will be not in the suburbs of Moscow (as planned) but in the center near the site of his assassination (how convenient he killed near Kremlin).
I would not be surprised if tomorrow during the riots on the bridge someone will fall from the bridge or be crushed to death to escape the "na-zi action" Riot Putin police and all this ill be captured on cam
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 28, 2015, 05:51:03 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 28, 2015, 05:48:18 pm
Yeah, CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy this is nonsense but FSB and putin is ok. nice logic.

and where the hell did I write that
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2015, 06:03:44 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 28, 2015, 05:48:18 pm
   Yeah, CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy this is nonsense but FSB and putin is ok. nice logic.
Ever heard of Occam's razor?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on February 28, 2015, 06:05:35 pm
it probably wasn't putler, because no polonium was involved. probably some of his deranged tovi like supporters did that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 28, 2015, 06:13:55 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 28, 2015, 06:03:44 pm
Ever heard of Occam's razor?

can I shave with it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2015, 06:17:24 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on February 28, 2015, 06:05:35 pm
it probably wasn't putler, because no polonium was involved. probably some of his deranged tovi like supporters did that.
Why would he use polonium?

"It wasn't subtle enough, it wasn't poison like before!" You guys do realize that just by you saying that... it removes the entire point. It would not be subtle anymore to poison someone. No, it'd be even MORE discriminating. There is no point. Now, Putin can just straight out assassinate people on the streets and 1) people will say "Not Putin, he used poison before, it's not subtle!" and 2) not even care what "the people" think even if they do figure it was him behind it. They aren't and don't need any more subtlety in Ukraine either, just have to keep denying it publicly and everyone just wrings their hands.

A secret that is known to everyone isn't a secret...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 28, 2015, 06:56:00 pm
Mr. Surkov is sipping his drinks very proudly right now I bet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2015, 07:01:57 pm
Quote
More recently, Nemtsov had been working on a report that he said would prove that Russian soldiers were fighting alongside pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine, where a bloody 11-month-conflict has claimed nearly 5,800 lives. The Kremlin has hotly denied any direct involvement, which Russian opinion polls suggest would be deeply unpopular.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 28, 2015, 09:00:35 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 28, 2015, 06:03:44 pm
Ever heard of Occam's razor?
its something about logic reasons and i already write why his murder by the government is not logical
   
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 28, 2015, 09:03:45 pm
and what is logical in russia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2015, 09:17:04 pm
Quote from: Vovka on February 28, 2015, 09:00:35 pm
its something about logic reasons and i already write why his murder by the government is not logical
The Russian government has found it logical to murder journalists and political opposition before. Your reasons are not good, therefore. Especially when he was writing a report about Russian soldiers in Ukraine, that could be reason enough for the government to kill him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 28, 2015, 09:36:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on February 28, 2015, 09:17:04 pm
The Russian government has found it logical to murder journalists and political opposition before. Your reasons are not good, therefore. Especially when he was writing a report about Russian soldiers in Ukraine, that could be reason enough for the government to kill him.
  :lol: omg he is just shittalker he not general and not even the Secretary in the administration of the Kremlin. He can not say more than what you can find in Google. now he will be called the "father of democracy" "Russian Snowden" " the last hope of Russian freedom", and such shiteaters like u willl happily swallow it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 28, 2015, 09:40:48 pm
Putin doesn't have to hide anything. Opposition are traitors, paid by CIA to ruin Russia. That is how your average Rus looks at things these days. Death of oppositional leader is same as killing a stray dog.

Then why is Putin hiding involvement in Ukraine? Because he cares what western leaders will say? He gives no shit about their opinion. He don't want Ukrainians to be sure of Russian involvement because he plans to restore power in Ukraine and having majority who hate you make ruling over them harder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on February 28, 2015, 10:08:09 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 28, 2015, 09:40:48 pm
Then why is Putin hiding involvement in Ukraine? Because he cares what western leaders will say? He gives no shit about their opinion. He don't want Ukrainians to be sure of Russian involvement because he plans to restore power in Ukraine and having majority who hate you make ruling over them harder.

lol. If anyone its Ukrainians who are fully sure of Russian involvement. Putin cant restore power in Ukr and he knows it, thats why he basically invaded it. Ukr hates Russia to the bone and the pro-Russians all fled to Eastern-Ukr. You got it backwards, at this point its fairly obvious Putin doesnt care what anyone in Ukr thinks. At this current point, nobody in the world hates russians more than ukrainians.

He doesnt care what the western leaders say either. Thats true. But he does care what the world in general thinks. When you keep the benefit of the doubt in a crysis like this, its a possibility to still get allies or pats on the back here and there. Like Greece for example. If he straight up admitted that they are steamrolling over Ukraine, even a lot of his own people would have had second thoughts and  some other countries politician showing support than would have been a political suicide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on February 28, 2015, 10:23:37 pm
Putin killing Nemtsov would be a complete blunder and completely out of his MO so far regarding Ukraine. He benefits very little from this as he still has widespread support and actions like this threaten it. Killed by Russian nationalists? Most likely. On Putin's orders? It would be a very foolish move so I doubt it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on February 28, 2015, 11:37:38 pm
Who really did it is completely irrelevant in Russia, and something we will probably be never know.

The important thing is who do we SAY did it. How do smear this in a way that benefits us?

I'm 60% sure Putin ordered it some way or another. He's the one who benefits in the end, and his media will spin it in his favor. I'm also not sure many would dear to kill off politicians without his permission.

Don't think he cares about international rep anymore, just power politics and national standing. Ofc the conspiracy loving russians will love the most insane conspiracies, while ignoring the conspiracy that is most obvious. Anyway.. pure speculation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 28, 2015, 11:38:28 pm
Quote from: Tibe on February 28, 2015, 10:08:09 pm
lol. If anyone its Ukrainians who are fully sure of Russian involvement. Putin cant restore power in Ukr and he knows it, thats why he basically invaded it.

Only minority, which will be taken care of when Putin puts his next pawn in Kiev.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 01, 2015, 12:26:18 am
that idiot still cares for international reputation, because sanctions work. and he is afraid of other sanctions that may come, because they for sure can hurt russians a lot. otherwise he'd not be lying about everything ukraine related.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2015, 12:27:58 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 01, 2015, 12:26:18 am
that idiot still cares for international reputation, because sanctions work. and he is afraid of other sanctions that may come, because they for sure can hurt russians a lot. otherwise he'd not be lying about everything ukraine related.
... No, that is not why he lies. He lies because it's good politics. He gains literally nothing from admitting it while lying about it lessens actions taken against Russia in retaliation, even casting a lot of doubt whether Russia is actually involved at all. And it makes it a lot harder for his political opponents to use it against him, when he can simply say "that's not true."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 01, 2015, 01:23:55 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 01, 2015, 12:26:18 am
that idiot still cares for international reputation, because sanctions work. and he is afraid of other sanctions that may come, because they for sure can hurt russians a lot. otherwise he'd not be lying about everything ukraine related.

Sanction work both ways. Every day of sanctions towards Russia is hurting Europe too. Doubt there will be more or EU will be in deep problems, much deeper than now. And printing billions of euros out of thin air won't help.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on March 01, 2015, 01:30:49 am
Russian politics, The Thug Life.  You must be so proud.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on March 01, 2015, 01:42:50 am
Quote from: Oberyn on February 28, 2015, 10:30:21 am
Yeah, if Putin's government was behind it I'd expect a modicum of subtlety. More along the lines of polonium or unfortunate accident (plane crash, etc) than a public murder.
Concerning that article, the whole point of NATO was to contain the imperial ambitions of Russia in Europe. If the US thinks Russia is more important than a European country then the alliance is pointless. But we already knew NATO was centered entirely around american interests. The crocodile tears about the brave sacrifice and burden of protecting Europe has always been a load of propaganda bullshit. I agree it's not the US's problem, it's the EU's. As long as NATO exists the EU will never realize it's own potential.

Oh and the rest of Western Europe that Stalin didn't swallow had no interest in supporting NATO hmmm?  What ever the reason that NATO was sustained it allowed Euro countries to spend most of their GDP building their little socialist, cradle to grave, nanny state utopias without having to spend much on defense or without having been taken over by the USSR.  So I know it hurts your pride but Europe could not have or would not have taken care of itself without the sacrifice and the burden undertaken by the US.  Of course NATO was and is in America's interest.  Why would she support NATO if it was not?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 01, 2015, 02:11:35 am
America is a she?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 01, 2015, 02:40:53 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 01, 2015, 02:11:35 am
America is a she?
nwm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 01, 2015, 05:50:56 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 01, 2015, 02:11:35 am
America is a she?

When referencing an entity that isn't animate, people generally refer to it in the option of the fairer sex.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 01, 2015, 07:00:47 am
Uncle Sam

Quote from: Leshma on February 28, 2015, 11:38:28 pm
Only minority, which will be taken care of when Putin puts his next pawn in Kiev.

Minority that kicked his last pawn out a year ago. They wont have power in Kiev, seems too far fetched at this point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 01, 2015, 10:18:59 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 01, 2015, 01:23:55 am
Sanction work both ways. Every day of sanctions towards Russia is hurting Europe too. Doubt there will be more or EU will be in deep problems, much deeper than now. And printing billions of euros out of thin air won't help.
It hurts the EU way less than it hurts Russia. Now that's a simple fact.
I've already read from half a dozen economic dudes that the news outlets blow the backfire of those sanctions on Europe way out of proportion.
Sure, some businesses are hurt but those which still hurt right now, didn't pay attention to what was going on and they're at fault.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 01, 2015, 12:15:02 pm
Indeed. I think it hurts like Finland or something the most. Dunno about the rest of the EU, but the Baltics didnt really lose a lot. Our buisnessmen who invested in Russia, all went backruped in the early 2000s, due to Russia always sanctioning our companies, whenever our politicans did something, that could even remotely be considered as provocation. So we kinda stopped looking in the East for profit long ago.
 
Russia however, has shitton of corporations in the West. Soo.....technically, we have a relatively poor country that didnt really have a lot of foreign investors to begin with, who is trying to countersanction one of the wealthiest parts of the World, who has a lot of this countries investments. You dont really dont need an economics masters degree here to figure out who is going to be suffering more. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 01, 2015, 12:42:46 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 01, 2015, 12:15:02 pm
Indeed. I think it hurts like Finland or something the most. Dunno about the rest of the EU, but the Baltics didnt really lose a lot. Our buisnessmen who invested in Russia, all went backruped in the early 2000s, due to Russia always sanctioning our companies, whenever our politicans did something, that could even remotely be considered as provocation. So we kinda stopped looking in the East for profit long ago.
 
Russia however, has shitton of corporations in the West. Soo.....technically, we have a relatively poor country that didnt really have a lot of foreign investors to begin with, who is trying to countersanction one of the wealthiest parts of the World, who has a lot of this countries investments. You dont really dont need an economics masters degree here to figure out who is going to be suffering more. :lol:

I would just second that with some ideas from some more-or-less prominent Economists in Lt and our president. So economists say "russia was a great opportunity for profit, at a great risk. There is no reason why remainder of your country should bow OR pay for YOUR risks when they fail you, but leave your profit to you, when you win big". Our president said "I'm not selling our principals and integrity for your profit". And since its her last term - she didn't give a fuck about reelections and in this case - was more than right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 01, 2015, 10:34:42 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 01, 2015, 01:23:55 am
Sanction work both ways. Every day of sanctions towards Russia is hurting Europe too. Doubt there will be more or EU will be in deep problems, much deeper than now. And printing billions of euros out of thin air won't help.

russia has 145 mil people (1/3 of them are more or less permanently drunk), all they produce and sell to europe are wooden hockey sticks and gas, while eu exports some food and technologies. its no big market for eu, how much in total (2-3% maybe at most? probably even less). for some countries maybe more, but overall big majority of countries (except for the gas) really doesn't have to give a single fuck. i'd say fence the border, send most of russians home, buy more expensive gas from usa or arab countries and it will all get way cheaper in the end.

that "huge" market full of moneyz for europe in russia is one big stupid illusion that some morons try to feed us with.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2015, 05:27:03 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2015, 06:01:45 am
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/67490.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 03, 2015, 10:31:54 am
Quote from: Xant on March 03, 2015, 06:01:45 am
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/67490.html
too many words for guy who bleeds from each produced sound
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2015, 10:59:52 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 03, 2015, 10:31:54 am
too many words for guy who bleeds from each produced sound
What a great retort as always.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 03, 2015, 11:26:47 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2015, 01:21:38 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 03, 2015, 11:26:47 am
(click to show/hide)

Do you really post it here? He went to occupy the territory of the other country, should I show my compassion to him? Just another example of "Ukrainian locals" fighting for Novorossia. The place where he lived his whole life is thousands of kilometers away from Donetsk, yet he still comes here with a gun to fight against "nаzis", sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 03, 2015, 01:50:28 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2015, 01:21:38 pm
Do you really post it here? He went to occupy the territory of the other country, should I show my compassion to him? Just another example of "Ukrainian locals" fighting for Novorossia. The place where he lived his whole life is thousands of kilometers away from Donetsk, yet he still comes here with a gun to fight against "nаzis", sure.
No, but can you can keep telling us such a great officer you are and your vision of the situation from the sofa for 500km from the scene.
I just showed videos that are Buryat on the photo does exist and that atleast part of his story about Kabzon not fake ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 03, 2015, 02:08:04 pm
Just to keep this in "Vovka" style of "funny".

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2015, 02:08:55 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 03, 2015, 01:50:28 pm
No, but can you can keep telling us such a great officer you are and your vision of the situation from the sofa for 500km from the scene.
I just showed videos that are Buryat on the photo does exist and that atleast part of his story about Kabzon not fake ^^

I'm a surgeon and I've seen more wounded soldiers than you saw people in your life. Taking part in a war is not only shooting with a gun, especially in this one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 03, 2015, 04:29:14 pm
Predictably, the conspiracy theory that this is a devious plan by the west to turn Nemtsov into a martyr is extremely popular in russian media. I'm still sticking to the thought that this was a random actor, or at least unafiliated with the russian government. Maybe even trying to ingratiate themselves to them. Putin doesn't gain from this, the idea that the "election" could ever go against him in the first place is laughable. Nemstov is indeed more of a threat to him dead than he was alive. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2015, 04:32:50 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 03, 2015, 04:29:14 pm
Predictably, the conspiracy theory that this is a devious plan by the west to turn Nemtsov into a martyr is extremely popular in russian media. I'm still sticking to the thought that this was a random actor, or at least unafiliated with the russian government. Maybe even trying to ingratiate themselves to them. Putin doesn't gain from this, the idea that the "election" could ever go against him in the first place is laughable. Nemstov is indeed more of a threat to him dead than he was alive.

I agree, the only reason for Putin to kill Nemtsov could be personal hatred. Nemtsov called Putin insane (using bad words) a lot during last year. Also Nemtsov claimed that he had some crazy proofs about Russia invading Ukraine. What I can say clearly is that Nemtsov wasn't killed because he was a political rival for the Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 03, 2015, 04:35:01 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on March 01, 2015, 01:42:50 am
Oh and the rest of Western Europe that Stalin didn't swallow had no interest in supporting NATO hmmm?  What ever the reason that NATO was sustained it allowed Euro countries to spend most of their GDP building their little socialist, cradle to grave, nanny state utopias without having to spend much on defense or without having been taken over by the USSR.  So I know it hurts your pride but Europe could not have or would not have taken care of itself without the sacrifice and the burden undertaken by the US.  Of course NATO was and is in America's interest.  Why would she support NATO if it was not?

Hmmm, so it was a sacrifice and burden, yet undertaken solely because they were directly in America's interest? The words "sacrifice" and "burden" don't mean what you seem to think they do. Undertaking logical steps to reinforce your own position is 100% realpolitiks, but I know emotional red white and blue crying bald eagle bullshit is pretty much the only way the vast majority of your countrymen can relate to anything historical or political. Gotta inject that dose of righteous delusion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 03, 2015, 04:38:50 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 03, 2015, 04:32:50 pm
I agree, the only reason for Putin to kill Nemtsov could be personal hatred. Nemtsov called Putin insane (using bad words) a lot during last year. Also Nemtsov claimed that he had some crazy proofs about Russia invading Ukraine. What I can say clearly is that Nemtsov wasn't killed because he was a political rival for the Putin.

Meh, what earth-shattering proof does anyone need anymore? Is there anyone that seriously still believes there is no russian involvement in the separatist forces?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 03, 2015, 04:40:02 pm
Putin knows that russians love wild conspiracies, and therefore he knows that he most likely wouldn't have to take the blame. In Russia.

To his advantage, this probably will silence some of the internal critical voices, and further polarize the national political climate, making it less and less sensible, and more and more extreme.

Internationally this looks really bad of course, but it seems he gave up on looking good internationally a long time ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 03, 2015, 04:42:02 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 03, 2015, 04:38:50 pm
Meh, what earth-shattering proof does anyone need anymore? Is there anyone that seriously still believes there is no russian involvement in the separatist forces?
Tovi, Nicko... :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 03, 2015, 05:17:04 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2015, 04:42:02 pm
Tovi, Nicko... :P
Don't forget Tovi's kids, who unfortunately will be indoctrinated. Ugly truth is - I hope he is not vaccinating them... :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2015, 12:59:09 am
Putin definitely gains from Nemtsov's murder. He just showed anyone opposing him that he's not afraid of having them just blatantly gunned down. Meanwhile in Russia and Tovi's house, it was a CIA conspiracy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on March 04, 2015, 04:58:02 am
So Putin had a political opponent assassinated, and nobody is standing up to him.  Its the 70's-80's all over again.

Quote from: Kuujis on March 03, 2015, 05:17:04 pm
Don't forget Tovi's kids, who unfortunately will be indoctrinated. Ugly truth is - I hope he is not vaccinating them... :|

A guy like that has kids?  Is there a social services equivalent where he's from?  Needs to lose custody tbh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 04, 2015, 09:47:10 am
This is some nice documentary by Vice, even if first part without the second sounds a bit watered down.
https://news.vice.com/video/killed-in-unknown-circumstances-russias-ghost-army-in-ukraine-part-1 (links inside point to Part 2)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 06, 2015, 01:07:03 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 04, 2015, 12:59:09 am
Putin definitely gains from Nemtsov's murder. He just showed anyone opposing him that he's not afraid of having them just blatantly gunned down. Meanwhile in Russia and Tovi's house, it was a CIA conspiracy.

No, you say it's a Putin conspiracy. And he probably shot him himself from it office window.
Nemtsov was unknown from 50% of russians before he was killed. He has never been a threat for anybody. But he may have had troubles with mafia, like a good oligarch he was.

Xant, I've found a job for you. Ukraine gvt recruits Trolls here : http://i-army.org/index_en.php



Here is a link to understand how NATO deliver letal weapons to Ukraine : http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/03/05/us-pmcs-used-for-arms-supplies-to-ukraine.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 06, 2015, 02:28:20 pm
here, have something to cheer you up if you just read one of tovis latest bullshit:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 06, 2015, 05:55:29 pm
Have some Star Wars and R2D2...

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2015, 06:05:32 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 06, 2015, 01:07:03 pm
No, you say it's a Putin conspiracy. And he probably shot him himself from it office window.
Nemtsov was unknown from 50% of russians before he was killed. He has never been a threat for anybody. But he may have had troubles with mafia, like a good oligarch he was.

Xant, I've found a job for you. Ukraine gvt recruits Trolls here : http://i-army.org/index_en.php



Here is a link to understand how NATO deliver letal weapons to Ukraine : http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/03/05/us-pmcs-used-for-arms-supplies-to-ukraine.html
Reading comprehension continues to be an impossible task for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 07, 2015, 12:02:29 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 06, 2015, 01:07:03 pm
Here is a link to understand how NATO deliver letal weapons to Ukraine : http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/03/05/us-pmcs-used-for-arms-supplies-to-ukraine.html

Tovi so do you mind showing any photoes of Ukrainian soldiers using NATO weaponry? A year passed but you still post bullshit about Academi mercenaries, NATO weapons and so on. Where are they? I think we posted here enough of evidences to prove even to an blind deaf ape that Russia is directly involved into a conflict and supplies pro-Russian forces massively with basically everything.

About Nemtsov. I once again (which one? A millionth?) prove to myself that you're the most incompetent person I've ever faced in my life. Nemtsov was a very known person in Russia, not for the youth maybe because he was kind of inactive for last years but still he was a known politician. Even if you say so, being known to 50% of population is a lot for Russia.
Nemtsov being an oligarch? Ha. He was a rich man for Russian standards, sure he was. But definitely not an oligarch, I guess he had a dozen of $ millions but not more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 07, 2015, 01:15:04 pm
Wasn't Nemtsov some big dude during the Jelzin era?
Minister for Economics or something... Some even put hope in him to candidate for President iirc.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2015, 04:10:53 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2015, 12:02:29 pm
Tovi so do you mind showing any photoes of Ukrainian soldiers using NATO weaponry? A year passed but you still post bullshit about Academi mercenaries, NATO weapons and so on. Where are they? I think we posted here enough of evidences to prove even to an blind deaf ape that Russia is directly involved into a conflict and supplies pro-Russian forces massively with basically everything.

About Nemtsov. I once again (which one? A millionth?) prove to myself that you're the most incompetent person I've ever faced in my life. Nemtsov was a very known person in Russia, not for the youth maybe because he was kind of inactive for last years but still he was a known politician. Even if you say so, being known to 50% of population is a lot for Russia.
Nemtsov being an oligarch? Ha. He was a rich man for Russian standards, sure he was. But definitely not an oligarch, I guess he had a dozen of $ millions but not more.
Why even bother replying to Tovi in a rational manner? You've proved like ten times that he has dodged your questions and posted utter bullshit. He deserves our pity, nothing more. Or well, more accurately, his children do. Hopefully the apple has fallen far from the tree.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pepejul on March 07, 2015, 09:58:36 pm
error post
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 08, 2015, 12:11:44 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 07, 2015, 12:02:29 pm
Tovi so do you mind showing any photoes of Ukrainian soldiers using NATO weaponry? A year passed but you still post bullshit about Academi mercenaries, NATO weapons and so on. Where are they? I think we posted here enough of evidences to prove even to an blind deaf ape that Russia is directly involved into a conflict and supplies pro-Russian forces massively with basically everything.

About Nemtsov. I once again (which one? A millionth?) prove to myself that you're the most incompetent person I've ever faced in my life. Nemtsov was a very known person in Russia, not for the youth maybe because he was kind of inactive for last years but still he was a known politician. Even if you say so, being known to 50% of population is a lot for Russia.
Nemtsov being an oligarch? Ha. He was a rich man for Russian standards, sure he was. But definitely not an oligarch, I guess he had a dozen of $ millions but not more.

The only reason why NATO do not officialy supply Ukraine with lethal weapon is that Ukr army is so dumb that they will let them to the rebels.

Ear what think your soldiers :


Not Tovi or Putin's propaganda, just their words. It's so easy to make Putin responsible of everything when you don't fight at the front.


Free people of Debatslevo speaking (dunno if it's russian or ukrainian) :



Dave, NATO's countries doen't want to help you, they just want you to fight Russia. They don't want peace, especially the USA.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 08, 2015, 05:33:28 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2015, 12:11:44 am
Dave, NATO's countries doen't want to help you, they just want you to fight Russia. They don't want peace, especially the USA.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 08, 2015, 12:53:06 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2015, 12:11:44 am
Dave, NATO's countries doen't want to help you, they just want you to fight Russia. They don't want peace, especially the USA.

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Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2015, 12:11:44 am
Not Tovi or Putin's propaganda, just their words. It's so easy to make Putin responsible of everything when you don't fight at the front.
Claims the guy, whose never even been to ex-USSR countries, lives in a stable Western-European country and gets his info from totally unproven, unreliable sources. From all the people active in this thread, you are furthest from the front you know. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 08, 2015, 01:38:44 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 08, 2015, 12:53:06 pm
Claims the guy, whose never even been to ex-USSR countries, lives in a stable Western-European country and gets his info from totally unproven, unreliable sources. From all the people active in this thread, you are furthest from the front you know. :rolleyes:

This. To make up your own judgment only 2 things are required, and both can be hard to do for many people. 1 is to go and see for yourself, and talk to people involved, 2nd is to decide to try to be open.

In my head, simple geography is one of basic reasons of the "divided" ukraine we see now. Western Ukrainians have gone to at least Poland. They see that another kind of society and life is possible. They quickly understand that the something smells about the anti-western propaganda they are exposed to from Russian and Russian friendly TV-channels.

Likewise, westerners who play down the utter rottenness of the "Russian system", have never been there, never lived there, have never seen the reasons for the miserable situation in Russia and states under their influence. To me it's clear as day.

You cannot build a fair state where corruption and plain theft is the default mode. One thing is common corruption like paying a doctor to get better service, a symptom of poverty. The horror begins when the corruption decreases the state income, (Greece, Italy) and the worst of all, destroys all good decisions. For example building a nice highway so the oligarchs can have easier access to their dachas, or throwing the money meant for school refurbishment at a corrupt/criminal building company.

That is simply waste, and the end result are countries throwing away their growth and future. Not the "west sabotaging them". It's a self-sabotaging, rotten system, and the sooner you realize it, the better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 08, 2015, 07:18:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 08, 2015, 12:11:44 am
(click to show/hide)
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on March 08, 2015, 08:33:43 pm
Originally thought Tovi was trolling but it seems he's legit insane.  And this guy has kids?

Why is he allowed to post?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 08, 2015, 09:19:45 pm
NATO - USA Army = EU army
love it  :P time to exchange mine 10 euros to dollars  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 09, 2015, 10:55:25 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 08, 2015, 09:19:45 pm
NATO - USA Army = EU army
love it  :P time to exchange mine 10 euros to dollars  :lol:

Russia - gas - military = Zimbabwe
Separatist's offensive in Ukraine coming soon
time to echange your rubles for toilet paper
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 09, 2015, 10:57:25 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 09, 2015, 10:55:25 am
Russia - gas - military = Zimbabwe
Separatist's offensive in Ukraine coming soon
time to echange your rubles for toilet paper
A lot of praise was given to russia here. Not sure it is worth it.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 09, 2015, 12:20:24 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 09, 2015, 10:57:25 am
A lot of praise was given to russia here. Not sure it is worth it.  :rolleyes:
Lithuania - gays = Congo, because nobody would suck EU balls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 09, 2015, 12:31:54 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 09, 2015, 10:57:25 am
A lot of praise was given to russia here. Not sure it is worth it.  :rolleyes:

thats true, let me rephrase it :)

Russia - gas - military = Zimbabwe - elephants
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 09, 2015, 01:11:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 09, 2015, 12:20:24 pm
Lithuania - gays = Congo, because nobody would suck EU balls
Thats cute!  :rolleyes:

Care to try again?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2015, 01:32:35 pm
More like Russia - nukes = Zimbabwe - elephants
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 09, 2015, 01:54:35 pm
http://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/270400-vasemmistoliiton-antero-eerola-pahoinpideltiin-ita-ukrainassa
Any finnish can explain what happened?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on March 09, 2015, 03:29:06 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31796226

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2015, 03:54:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 09, 2015, 01:54:35 pm
http://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/270400-vasemmistoliiton-antero-eerola-pahoinpideltiin-ita-ukrainassa
Any finnish can explain what happened?
He got beat up by some random people because he's retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on March 09, 2015, 04:15:36 pm
In Russia, CIA plot is YOU, or at least it is according to 80% of Russians.   Never mind that the Russian economy is shit, Putin can do no wrong (even when he's having political opponents killed)

Too many Tovi's

http://www.levada.ru/09-02-2015/mezhdunarodnye-otnosheniya
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 09, 2015, 04:53:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 09, 2015, 01:54:35 pm
http://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/270400-vasemmistoliiton-antero-eerola-pahoinpideltiin-ita-ukrainassa
Any finnish can explain what happened?

one side says someting like "ua forces started to fire at rebell positions shortly after the cease fire was announced and the finnish reporter was beaten in slaviansk by ua forces because speaks only russian and finnish (i guess)."

then the other side says "This incident happened just 12 hours after the cease-fire in Svitlodarsk, which was only 10 kilometers from active fighting in Debaltseva. At the same time the rebels claimed that Debaltseva area was not covered by the cease-fire, were advancing with tanks, IFV's and small arms. Rebels were shelling the town at the time with Grads from at least three separate fire-positions."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2015, 05:47:57 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 09, 2015, 04:53:04 pm
one side says someting like "ua forces started to fire at rebell positions shortly after the cease fire was announced and the finnish reporter was beaten in slaviansk by ua forces because speaks only russian and finnish (i guess)."

then the other side says "This incident happened just 12 hours after the cease-fire in Svitlodarsk, which was only 10 kilometers from active fighting in Debaltseva. At the same time the rebels claimed that Debaltseva area was not covered by the cease-fire, were advancing with tanks, IFV's and small arms. Rebels were shelling the town at the time with Grads from at least three separate fire-positions."
That is not what it says.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 09, 2015, 06:31:29 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on March 09, 2015, 04:15:36 pm
In Russia, CIA plot is YOU, or at least it is according to 80% of Russians.   Never mind that the Russian economy is shit, Putin can do no wrong (even when he's having political opponents killed)

Too many Tovi's

http://www.levada.ru/09-02-2015/mezhdunarodnye-otnosheniya

aye russian mentality is they don't care about themselves as long as they're feared and considered the world power.
unlike in europe where everybody's quality of life comes first and his country being a world power doesnt even come second. well in fact nobody gives a shit about it, unless he is totally retarded.

so the best fun you can make outta rus is you somehow in a funny way tell them their country is shit. it always pisses them off - aka when nicko went mental, when i compared their country to zimbabwe :D

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2015, 08:38:03 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 09, 2015, 01:54:35 pm
http://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/270400-vasemmistoliiton-antero-eerola-pahoinpideltiin-ita-ukrainassa
Any finnish can explain what happened?
LOL

Now I know why Nicko was asking. A Finnish journalist was in Ukraine, got accosted by some youngsters, got punched once. The end. What a story, right? One thrown punch -- story of the century.

It's in Finnish media now too, but guess what the headline is? "Russian media made the assault on Finnish reporter their top news - Eerola (the journalist who was punched): they're trying to take advantage of the incident"

Eerola has been bombarded by calls from Russian media asking for an interview. He's refused all of them, because he says it's obvious what they're trying to do. He also says Russian media is reporting that the assault had something to do with him witnessing the Ukrainians breaking the ceasefire, and he says it definitely had nothing to do with it.

Funny part is that Eerola is an anti-EU, pro-Russia joke of a politician and even he's not going to play the retarded Russian media game.

tl;dr someone got punched somewhere, Russians twist the story and make it huge news
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 10, 2015, 01:53:04 am
another story from prague - a group of people showed publicly their support one day ago to our president (senile drunkyard who almost vomited over our crown jewels when he got smashed during one celebration. he was happy not to loose his balance there and only a wall behind his back was what allowed him to stand).

in russian media meeting of these people was presented as a demonstration against sanctions against russian federation.

omg really? aye why not. lol no joke. for fucking real :D :D :D :D :D

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 10, 2015, 05:40:26 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 10, 2015, 01:53:04 am
(click to show/hide)

so you Czech  :P Now everything fell into place  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 10, 2015, 08:04:02 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 10, 2015, 05:40:26 am
so you Czech  :P Now everything fell into place  :P
That's a comparatively weak attempt at a "comeback". I almost daresay Don did it better  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 10, 2015, 08:13:17 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 10, 2015, 08:04:02 am
That's a comparatively weak attempt at a "comeback". I almost daresay Don did it better  :shock:
sry i will try harder next time  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 10, 2015, 11:42:08 am
special one for you Vovka

The Radio Yekaterinburg was asked: "Is it possible to enjoy life to the fullest in Russia?"
The Radio Yekaterinburg answered: "Yes, if you like crowded exchange offices."

:D :D :D

and the other for Don

Radio Yekaterinburg was asked: "Does one get 10 years of prison for saying that Putin is an idiot?"
Radio Yekaterinburg answered: "In principle yes, because that's a state secret."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 10, 2015, 12:40:05 pm
- "In our country there still never was any attempts to kill one of politicians!" - Czech tells
- Do you brag or complain?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 10, 2015, 01:11:02 pm
Googled a bit and make joke special for u Beauchamp!

Czech journalist was asked: "Minister, how would you compare the profession Czech diplomat?"
Minister answered: "with the profession of a prostitute, working at night and adjusts the position under the partner's desires"







Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 10, 2015, 01:26:16 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 10, 2015, 12:40:05 pm
- "In our country there still never was any attempts to kill one of politicians!" - Czech tells
- Do you brag or complain?
(click to show/hide)

not true really so i guess its from russian media again :)
- masaryk (our first president) ordered assassination of lenin, but unluckily he failed. but its confirmed, documented in archives etc. just not to well known to the world. maybe he wasn't the only one trying.
- our paratroopers killed heidrich (if he counts as politician)
- and commies killed dozens of politicians, i guess the murder of horakova (the only woman executed is a bit known, but they also were copycating ussr and were killing each other :D)
- there were no attempts to kill anyone in modern history though (but i guess the same applies to many countries; not to russia and zimbabwe of course :D)

hehe the joke you posted is ok, we had a good fun telling it on basic school.

i can tell you one about nemtsov that i heard recently. in fact is the only joke and the only good joke i heard that wants to praise putler. its probably because most of putler supporters are retards and can't even come up with a joke of their own, not to mention with a good one.

merkel and obama speak about time shifting and
merkel says: "you know i just wanted to congratulate the japan prime minister on winning the elections, i called at 3 o'clock in the afternoon but in japan it was already 3 o'clock in the night! i totally embarrassed myself, it was horrible, political faux pax at its best...."
obama says: "its nothing, i called putler at 3 o'clock in the night of washington time and insisted to investigate the nemtsov murder immediately! but it was 3 hours to early".

vovka u failed your comeback again, not funny really. sense of humour usually correlates with intelligence :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 10, 2015, 01:46:36 pm
Some others I liked
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 10, 2015, 02:17:11 pm
Which one of you buggers has an alt named Krim_Nash?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 10, 2015, 07:43:05 pm
So the "investigation" about Nemtsovs murder... here a nice overview, any comments from the "proud" nation side?
http://time.com/3738734/nemtsov-murder-investigation/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 10, 2015, 11:55:35 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 10, 2015, 07:43:05 pm
So the "investigation" about Nemtsovs murder... here a nice overview, any comments from the "proud" nation side?
http://time.com/3738734/nemtsov-murder-investigation/
too many words, sry  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 11, 2015, 10:04:02 am
Putin knows Russians have the attention spans of a gold fish and about the same level of literacy too, that's why he knows he can get away with "Er... the chechens did it!!" for everything
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 11, 2015, 10:38:53 am
New info about Odessa on russian language. The witness who survived tells:
(click to show/hide)
Dave, did he lie?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 11, 2015, 10:47:26 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


haha, our new friends, the poles!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 11, 2015, 11:25:30 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 11, 2015, 10:38:53 am
New info about Odessa on russian language. The witness who survived tells:
(click to show/hide)
Dave, did he lie?

Watched the first 2 minutes of the video and stopped. Typical Tovi-like trash with cognitive dissonance. During the first words he had already managed to form a Tovi styled post in this thread.

I didn't watch the rest of the video but pretty much yes, he lied. It took a short time for me to say this for sure. And also Shariy changed a lot, he's now a typical pro-Kremlin dog with entirely one-sided propaganda, doesn't differ from those whom he tried to criticize.

I simply don't understand your fetish with this 2nd of May in Odessa. Well I do, because it's typical thing to speak about with a pro-Russian zombie. But I hardly understand why they use this topic, it's absolutely a loose cannon in discussion about Ukraine for pro-Russians. I think I told this before, I wasn't on Maidan but about Odessa I can tell you for absolute sure:

1. All people (without ANY exceptions) who were in tent camp in Odessa were paid for it DAILY. Pretty much everyone could come there and ask to stay there for money, after checking you could stay and earn some money (that explains why there were people who were not from Odessa).
2. Most of Odessa citizens didn't support that stupid camp in the park zone in the center of the city. Even those who hated the current government completely disliked the idea of having a couple of hundreds of bums shitting in the park where normal people walk with kids. Pro-Ukrainian protesters having way bigger numbers didn't make such bullshit.
3. The place of the camp is a typical ideological crap. This was a place with a Lenin's monument which was removed about 10 years ago with commies raging about it. Why not take a place in front of Regional Administration? It has a bigger territory and at least is relevant. It's also like less than 1km away from their original place.
4. The whole ideology of this camp was anti-Ukrainian. People set Ukrainian flags on fire, there were a lot of Russian flags, leaders of their camp were known anti-Ukrainian pro-Russians.


Though I've said it a million times here: I didn't support Maidan and the whole idea of riot. But you can't really compare crimes they committed to pro-Russian actions in ANY measures.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 11, 2015, 02:13:45 pm
Why would anyone watch any Russian sources when it's widely known they try to twist everything into propaganda, f.ex the Finnish journalist who was punched once is a perfect example. 100% untrustworthy, stick to objective western media like BBC/CNN.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 11, 2015, 03:08:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 11, 2015, 02:13:45 pm
objective western media like BBC/CNN.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 11, 2015, 05:04:44 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 11, 2015, 02:13:45 pm
objective western media like BBC/CNN.
:lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 11, 2015, 08:45:38 pm
That is true. While CNN and BBC to some extent (they still hold higher standards, probably because they are British) are shit news providers and are very picky what and how they cover, RT is basically Russian version of Al Jazeera. News portal with just one purpose and that is to spread propaganda of those who are financing it (in RT case is Russia/FSB, just like Al Jazeera is paid by Quatari Royal Family to spread shit about their enemies).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 11, 2015, 09:14:53 pm
hey, simon ostrovsky is back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mfj1eLebNo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mfj1eLebNo)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 12, 2015, 12:16:23 am
Yolostrovsky!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:16:55 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 12, 2015, 01:01:44 am
but the more i hear the more i realise that this really is the mindset of many people who are more interested in thinking they look strong internationally than in actually pursuing a decent quality of life or a government that they can trust.
Russians try to look stronger internationally only to other countries. Inside Russia we blame the government, the president, local leaders(For example Mayor of my city was arrested because of corruption, many other Mayors were arrested for the year). Well if you can understand mentality of russians, we can blame our president, so I do. But when it comes that other countries start totally blame our president, russians will protect this president, just becuase he is russian. Because only russians can blame russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 12, 2015, 08:19:20 am
Just like Nemtsov, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:29:19 am
Quote from: Moncho on March 12, 2015, 08:19:20 am
Just like Nemtsov, right?
Nemtsov was too retarded. Really there were many people who would like to kill him, I think he was one of the most corrupted man in Russia. It can be a president, but not like that. For example this month in Ukraine two politics from opposite faction suicided. Why not Nemtsov. And now all use it to blame Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 12, 2015, 08:32:39 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:29:19 am
NI think he was one of the most corrupted man in Russia.

dude wat
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:51:36 am
Quote from: Christo on March 12, 2015, 08:32:39 am
dude wat
Not now, but when he was a Mayor of the Nizhniy Novgorod in 90s(That time I lived there), he sold a lot manufactures, destroyed all agriculture, well all people in Nizhniy Novgorod knew how shit he was. He was the right arm of Eltsin(the worst president), so they both made a default in 1998 in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 12, 2015, 08:56:40 am
Quote from: Mala on March 11, 2015, 09:14:53 pm
hey, simon ostrovsky is back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mfj1eLebNo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mfj1eLebNo)
inb4 Nazi Army soldier pigs get claimed by Tovi.

Saw a documentation in TV the other night about a guy, good at school, immigrant from Ukraine with his mother when he was like 6 yrs old, went to the Ukraine to fight.
Ended in one of the Nazi Armies. He said that since he can't get by short notice into the normal army, he's going to volunteer with those guys. I doesn't like their views but they provide him with stuff to get into the fight...

You can't argue that he's kinda stupid but what if most of those soldiers in the Nazi Army are just the same as this kid? Not agreeing with the unofficial policy of the higher ups but desperate enough to still join?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 12, 2015, 09:11:19 am
Quote from: Christo on March 12, 2015, 08:32:39 am
dude wat
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soon every citizen of Ukraine will receive the same paper ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 12, 2015, 11:18:00 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:16:55 am
Russians try to look stronger internationally only to other countries. Inside Russia we blame the government, the president, local leaders(For example Mayor of my city was arrested because of corruption, many other Mayors were arrested for the year). Well if you can understand mentality of russians, we can blame our president, so I do. But when it comes that other countries start totally blame our president, russians will protect this president, just becuase he is russian. Because only russians can blame russians.
Bullshit much? putler is doing bullshit, bullshit gets called bullshit and then you come and proclaim, that only you can eat putlers bullshit and decide that it is not bullshit, but because you like your bullshit much you dont eat the bullshit and live in a place so full of shit, that you start eating bullshit and decide that "it could be worse, it could be radioactive western capitalist gay jew horseshit" and thus - bullshit becomes a norm.

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 12, 2015, 11:45:13 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 12, 2015, 11:18:00 am
"it could be worse, it could be radioactive western capitalist gay jew horseshit"
we are not afraid it could be like in europe, we are afraid of what it could be like in the Baltic States  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 12, 2015, 12:15:14 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 12, 2015, 11:45:13 am
we are not afraid it could be like in europe, we are afraid of what it could be like in the Baltic States  :P
A much better attempt Vovka, much better! :rolleyes:

You still proud of you "country"? Or only as a joke?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 01:14:18 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 12, 2015, 11:18:00 am
Bullshit much? putler is doing bullshit, bullshit gets called bullshit and then you come and proclaim, that only you can eat putlers bullshit and decide that it is not bullshit, but because you like your bullshit much you dont eat the bullshit and live in a place so full of shit, that you start eating bullshit and decide that "it could be worse, it could be radioactive western capitalist gay jew horseshit" and thus - bullshit becomes a norm.

Good luck with that.
What a bullshit you wrote!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 12, 2015, 02:24:40 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 12, 2015, 12:15:14 pm
A much better attempt Vovka, much better! :rolleyes:
You still proud of you "country"? Or only as a joke?
I am a citizen of the Earth. so go to hell with your nationalism! Your Crimea - my Crimea, your country - my country! all is mine!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torben on March 12, 2015, 02:29:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:16:55 am
Russians try to look stronger internationally only to other countries. Inside Russia we blame the government, the president, local leaders(For example Mayor of my city was arrested because of corruption, many other Mayors were arrested for the year). Well if you can understand mentality of russians, we can blame our president, so I do. But when it comes that other countries start totally blame our president, russians will protect this president, just becuase he is russian. Because only russians can blame russians.

thats kinda cute,  just like in my family.  no matter what utter bullshit my brothers would do,  no one but myself would be allowed to call them out.

i like  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 12, 2015, 02:29:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 01:14:18 pm
What a bullshit you wrote!
You should be used to it already. Almost all your media is like that  :mrgreen:

Quote from: Vovka on March 12, 2015, 02:24:40 pm
I am a citizen of the Earth. so go to hell with your nationalism! Your Crimea - my Crimea, your country - my country! all is mine!
Can you please go and own other earth? Oh, and at the same time - other Crimea too? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 12, 2015, 03:01:05 pm
  :lol:
"I was arrested and beaten" XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:29:30 pm
From 26 of January to 12 of March 7 high-ranking officials committed suicide in Ukraine, they were opposite to the current government. They were Mikhail Chechetov, Stanislav Melnik, Alexander Peklushenko, Nikolay Sergienko, Alexey Kolesnik, Sergey Walther, Alexander Bordyug. Just interesting what EU media says about it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 12, 2015, 08:46:12 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:29:30 pm
From 26 of January to 12 of March 7 high-ranking officials committed suicide, they were opposite to the current government. They were Mikhail Chechetov, Stanislav Melnik, Alexander Peklushenko, Nikolay Sergienko, Alexey Kolesnik, Sergey Walther, Alexander Bordyug. Just interesting what EU media says about it?

all of them say that  russian secret agents have tied up some loose ends. :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 12, 2015, 08:57:43 pm
Never heard of them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on March 14, 2015, 05:46:40 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 12, 2015, 10:49:10 pm
Very good documentary for such a short video, quite in-depth analysis, i recommend watching right to the end so that you get the complete picture.


Need some black comedy as a detox after watching that
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 14, 2015, 07:15:26 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 12, 2015, 08:29:30 pm
From 26 of January to 12 of March 7 high-ranking officials committed suicide in Ukraine, they were opposite to the current government. They were Mikhail Chechetov, Stanislav Melnik, Alexander Peklushenko, Nikolay Sergienko, Alexey Kolesnik, Sergey Walther, Alexander Bordyug. Just interesting what EU media says about it?

Than read about it. You do speak english... Nowhere does it say that they were opposite to the current government, atleast not opposite as a critic. They were all charged with corruption and were part of Yanukovich's old government. Yanukovich himself was an very corrupt leader. Is it really that suprising that the people that worked for him were corrupt aswell?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 14, 2015, 09:01:30 am
Quote from: Tibe on March 14, 2015, 07:15:26 am
Than read about it. You do speak english... Nowhere does it say that they were opposite to the current government, atleast not opposite as a critic. They were all charged with corruption and were part of Yanukovich's old government. Yanukovich himself was an very corrupt leader. Is it really that suprising that the people that worked for him were corrupt aswell?
What? They were opposite(maybe wrong word) to the current government, because they were oppositionists. About corruption I think yes. I think new government is corrupted too. Didn't understand what your question for? Or I mentioned somewhere that they weren't corrupted? I asked what EU media says about it. Because for me 7 people from oppositional fraction committed suicide, and this seems at least strange.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 14, 2015, 09:23:37 am
putler dissapeared... Best explanation found so far is:

"ukrainian agents attempted assassination, putin got hurt but"

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 14, 2015, 10:12:18 am
Most interesting explanation for Putin's disappearance I've come across so far:

He is actually shocked to the bone cuz Ramsan Kadyrow is responsible for the assassination in front of the Kreml. There are basically 2 sides to this coin. First, he wanted to do Putin a favour while Second, showing that he can and will reach anyone, even in front of the Kreml.
The implications for this would be huge and mighty Putin is even a little frightened by Kadyrow now... :) Discussing with FSB and Army how to get rid of the power-tripping Kadyrow and replace him with someone who knows where his place is... like the this biker gang leader :lol: Whom I've seen giving already TV statements about the assassinations. Only in Russia criminal biker gang leader comments on assassinations of political figures!

I can't stop thinking how hilarious this all is/would be xD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 14, 2015, 10:35:01 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 14, 2015, 09:01:30 am
What? They were opposite(maybe wrong word) to the current government, because they were oppositionists. About corruption I think yes. I think new government is corrupted too. Didn't understand what your question for? Or I mentioned somewhere that they weren't corrupted? I asked what EU media says about it. Because for me 7 people from oppositional fraction committed suicide, and this seems at least strange.

Whats strange about it? This is very normal during regime changes. That people of the old regime who owned offices commit suicides. Especially the corruped ones. Im actually even suprised it's only 7.

And there is no such thing as "EU media". Lol. Every country has its own news and the tones in which they are spread are very varied. Some say more facts than others.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 14, 2015, 11:19:36 am
The Armenian Radio was asked: "Have any of Putin's critic committed suicide?"
The Armenian Radio answered: "We don't know, but their last words were Don't shoot, comrades!".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 14, 2015, 01:09:31 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 14, 2015, 10:12:18 am
Most interesting explanation for Putin's disappearance I've come across so far:
  soon expire deadlines Minsk Agreement, and as Kiev has not yet been fulfilled, Putin appears with the message:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 14, 2015, 08:24:29 pm
Dave and other ukranians, does he lie? Comment please.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 15, 2015, 12:47:29 am
Tovi - do you need more proofs?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 15, 2015, 05:24:46 pm
Evidence of Putin's intervention in the Donbass :

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European's public opinion is changing. More and more people begin to understand what is happening in Ukraine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIaKE1eMUQ8

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 15, 2015, 07:30:14 pm
Ukip, really? :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 15, 2015, 07:35:45 pm
Tovi just went full retard.

I mean, Tovi is full retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Golem on March 16, 2015, 12:20:01 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 09:41:33 am
Quote from: Xant on March 15, 2015, 07:35:45 pm
Tovi just went full retard.

I mean, Tovi is full retard.

Your hate is the same than ukrainians hate against russians. You are not very original. Just a basic fascist. You just can't respect any opinion different than yours.
Look, you can't even think, you just insult people. I'm sad for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 09:55:48 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 16, 2015, 12:04:47 am
Hey! Ukip is a serious and respected political party in the UK, and i think we should all show them a little more resp...

...I'm sorry i just cant do it, not even as a joke.

As a wise man once told me, Ukip will always receive a % of the vote as long as British people still have a sense of humour.

Resistance to the Empire is growing day after day.
In Germany : Foreign Minister (Steinmeier) complained about NATO's propaganda : http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/07/us-ukraine-crisis-germany-breedlove-idUSKBN0M30LB20150307
In South America : Protestations against US imperialism in Venezuela http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/03/14/401807/Argentineans-rally-to-back-Venezuela
UNASUR condamned US policy and lies about Venezuela : http://www.eluniverso.com/noticias/2015/03/14/nota/4658426/unasur-pide-estados-unidos-derogar-decreto-ejecutivo-venezuela
China joined the new russian "SWIFT" system (ROSSWIFT)

Peoples are just tired of constant lies and wars of America. NATO nations are going be alone against the rest of the world. This shit must stop.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2015, 10:04:32 am
You should remove yourself from one of those eeeevil bad NATO countries first.

Then you can talk your bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 10:28:48 am
Quote from: Christo on March 16, 2015, 10:04:32 am
You should remove yourself from one of those eeeevil bad NATO countries first.

Then you can talk your bullshit.
If Marine Le Pen will be next president of France, it can be.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 16, 2015, 11:09:11 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 09:41:33 am
You just can't respect any opinion different than yours.

first tovis comment that holds some truth?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 16, 2015, 11:58:51 am
i don't even

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 16, 2015, 11:59:24 am
Quote from: Vibe on March 16, 2015, 11:09:11 am
first tovis comment that holds some truth?
What if all that he wrote is the truth  :shock:

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2015, 11:58:51 am
I am having a hard time to find words that even describe my disbelieve in Tovi being serious. That just can't be. Humans are... An educated person... I... can't express... I don't know what to say any more :cry:
Do not think about it, just go change the oil in the bike


military coup, troops cordoned off the Kremlin, over Moscow flying military helicopters
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 16, 2015, 01:00:37 pm
thats an older video.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 01:04:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 09:41:33 am
Your hate is the same than ukrainians hate against russians. You are not very original. Just a basic fascist. You just can't respect any opinion different than yours.
Look, you can't even think, you just insult people. I'm sad for you.
Laughed out loud, I'm a "fascist" now?  :lol:

Ironically you accuse me of being like Ukrainians hating Russians, yet you're just like the Russians hating Ukrainians. "omg fascist, omg chocolate chip cookie".... do you even know the definition of the words? Oh wait, we already went over this - you're shit at definitions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 16, 2015, 01:20:53 pm
Wait, wat? Calling out on someone on having a retarded opinion for having a retarded opinion doesn't make you a facist. He's an insufferable xant though, granted. But in terms of facism the lead goes to the nationalists on both sides that escalated the whole thing into a war and those who try to justify it on random forums.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 16, 2015, 01:35:32 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2015, 11:58:51 am
i don't even

(click to show/hide)

They breed. They multiply. They vote... Thats the saddest part  :shock:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 03:48:15 pm
I just describe facts, like Azov batalion or german foreign minister words. It's not something coming from my imagination, this is the official german position : " NATO says bullshit". And especially US officers, in that case.

Why ? Because, US wants EU more sanctions against Russia. But some countries disagree : Greece, Cypria, Hungary, Spain, Italy and Germany. As they becom closer to Russia, the US try to say "Russia us very dangerous, they will invade you soon". Pretty dumb. We are not americans, we don't eat that shit (except baltic countries and other haters).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2015, 04:06:21 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 03:48:15 pm
Why ? Because, US wants EU more sanctions against Russia. But some countries disagree : Greece, Cypria, Hungary

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 04:07:20 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 16, 2015, 04:06:21 pm
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Don't be so sensible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2015, 04:08:24 pm
Move to russia then, if you love it so much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 04:12:41 pm
Tovi's too dumb to move.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 16, 2015, 04:17:30 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 16, 2015, 04:12:41 pm
Tovi's too dumb to move.
Then he has an stonk cow-giorl for a mate, because somehow he managed to multiply.... Where I come from - it involves moving... so... yeah...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 04:39:44 pm
Ukranian army like to drive fast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIqwyU0zNdg
Ukranian army caused a death of a woman and her child
https://youtu.be/3u_7CsuiDcU
Will see if they will get punished anyhow.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 04:44:38 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 16, 2015, 04:17:30 pm
Then he has an stonk cow-giorl for a mate, because somehow he managed to multiply.... Where I come from - it involves moving... so... yeah...
Tovi's wife is African. Obviously she just wanted a white man for some money and didn't care about how fat and dumb he is, it's the same story with all the white men brining back wives from the Philippines, can't get white women with their looks and smarts but in the Philippines they're just glad to get out of poverty.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 04:45:30 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 16, 2015, 04:44:38 pm
Tovi's wife is African. Obviously she just wanted a white man for some money and didn't care about how fat and dumb he is, it's the same story with all the white men brining back wives from the Philippines, can't get white women with their looks and smarts but in the Philippines they're just glad to get out of poverty.

And you say you're not fascist ?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 04:50:53 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 04:45:30 pm
And you say you're not fascist ?  :lol:
So you're saying you have no idea what fascism is. I guess that explains all your "omg he is a nazee" "omg he is fascist" talk -- you literally do not know what it means.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 05:08:39 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 16, 2015, 04:50:53 pm
So you're saying you have no idea what fascism is. I guess that explains all your "omg he is a nazee" "omg he is fascist" talk -- you literally do not know what it means.

Do you prefer "racist" ? Or just "retarded", as you seem like this term.

And I don't have any kind of "god", so I can't say OMG.

Sure, for you, I suppose this is racism  :D :

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 16, 2015, 05:38:38 pm
You might have called Xant "asshole" for that one but calling him a "fascist" didn't make any sense, Tovi :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 16, 2015, 05:40:15 pm
Putin did nothing wrong.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 16, 2015, 05:46:11 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 16, 2015, 01:20:53 pm
Wait, wat? Calling out on someone on having a retarded opinion for having a retarded opinion doesn't make you a facist. He's an insufferable xant though, granted. But in terms of facism the lead goes to the nationalists on both sides that escalated the whole thing into a war and those who try to justify it on random forums.

Don't you get it yet? Words only mean what Tovi says they mean. It's newspeak. Any coherent argument becomes meaningless because Tovi will change the meaning of the words you used. Been there done that. He vaguely reminds me of Smoothrich on racism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 05:52:31 pm
Putin did everything wrong.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2015, 05:55:27 pm
Wrong did everything Putin.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 06:46:14 pm
https://youtu.be/iOMX6ta4u9Y
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 16, 2015, 07:46:08 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 06:46:14 pm
https://youtu.be/iOMX6ta4u9Y
its a fake, russian flag and ussr anthem
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 07:47:21 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 16, 2015, 07:46:08 pm
its a fake, russian flag and ussr anthem
Yep, just everyone post shit here
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 08:59:10 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 05:08:39 pm
Do you prefer "racist" ? Or just "retarded", as you seem like this term.

And I don't have any kind of "god", so I can't say OMG.

Sure, for you, I suppose this is racism  :D :

(click to show/hide)
I prefer words that actually make sense. What I said isn't racism either, it's cold, hard facts. Economic situation =/= race. You calling someone retarded would probably give me haemochromatosis, so I'd rather you didn't. I guess you could call me mean or an asshole like Molly suggested.

As for your picture and "for you this is racism", what the actual fuck again, Tovi?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 09:48:16 pm
Today woman with two children was hit to death by the Ukrainian armored car, woman and one child is alive, 8 y.o. girl is dead. Interesting what ukranian TV says or western media about it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 10:01:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 09:48:16 pm
Today woman with two children was hit to death by the Ukrainian armored car, woman and one child is alive, 8 y.o. girl is dead. Interesting what ukranian TV says or western media about it
Why is it interesting? Are you interested about traffic accidents in Poland too?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 10:36:58 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2015, 05:38:38 pm
You might have called Xant "asshole" for that one but calling him a "fascist" didn't make any sense, Tovi :rolleyes:
About Xant :
Racism
Insults
Attempt to censor any different opinion
Intolerance

What is a fascist in your mind ?

Note that any Admin would have kicked him a long time ago in any other forum. It's not the case only because a majority agree with him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 16, 2015, 10:38:35 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 03:48:15 pm
I just describe facts, like Azov batalion or german foreign minister words. It's not something coming from my imagination, this is the official german position : " NATO says bullshit". And especially US officers, in that case.

Why ? Because, US wants EU more sanctions against Russia. But some countries disagree : Greece, Cypria, Hungary, Spain, Italy and Germany. As they becom closer to Russia, the US try to say "Russia us very dangerous, they will invade you soon". Pretty dumb. We are not americans, we don't eat that shit (except baltic countries and other haters).

well, the steinmeier guy has told that the NATO reports about russian involvement in ukraine are exaggerated.
for me sounds this like, "yes there are russian elements in eastern ukraine, but not as many as US generals say".

about the sanctions, the last thing i have heard that they should last a bit longer. harder ones are planned in the case of a new attack, too.


now to something completely different.
when russia can steal some clay, germanyland can do this as well.
with a tank into the Netherlands (https://youtu.be/njzf9bm_imo)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 11:03:58 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 10:36:58 pm
About Xant :
Racism
Insults
Attempt to censor any different opinion
Intolerance

What is a fascist in your mind ?

Note that any Admin would have kicked him a long time ago in any other forum. It's not the case only because a majority agree with him.
Oh my fucking god, you truly are a supreme retard. Do yourself a favor, learn to use Google (or a dictionary). I think I said this once already, but you'd look 1% less retarded at least.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 16, 2015, 11:09:49 pm
Naw, man, Google is owned by USA/NATO/chocolate chip cookie West/Zionists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 11:18:52 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 16, 2015, 11:09:49 pm
Naw, man, Google is owned by USA/NATO/chocolate chip cookie West/Zionists.
Or perhaps it would be too sensible to use it.

http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg1123004/#msg1123004

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 11:28:11 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 16, 2015, 10:38:35 pm
well, the steinmeier guy has told that the NATO reports about russian involvement in ukraine are exaggerated.
for me sounds this like, "yes there are russian elements in eastern ukraine, but not as many as US generals say".

about the sanctions, the last thing i have heard that they should last a bit longer. harder ones are planned in the case of a new attack, too.


now to something completely different.
when russia can steal some clay, germanyland can do this as well.
with a tank into the Netherlands (https://youtu.be/njzf9bm_imo)

"exagerated"... indeed, there is absolutly no evidence of it.
But I can show you tons of evidences of the presence of US troops in european countries ! Even our planes carrier "Charles DeGaulle" is under US command now (against Daesh). Who is the Empire here ? And who is under military occupation ?
I mean, we know that NATO troops are present in Ukraine, and also western mercenaries. Only western countries seem blind about that reality but the rest of the world knows that.
The USA play a game against Russia, and countries like Germany just don't want to pay the price of that game anymore.
You can lie to yourself or to some people on internet. But people in the Donbass (and Russia) knows who is attacking them. And that's what is important. Not what I think or what you think of the situation.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Now, what is the solution ? Is there any chance for Ukraine to get some military victory ? If not, they should find an agreement or let them go  live their russian life or whatever they want.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 16, 2015, 11:34:45 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 11:28:11 pm
"exagerated"... indeed, there is absolutly no evidence of it.
But I can show you tons of evidences of the presence of US troops in european countries ! Even our planes carrier "Charles DeGaulle" is under US command now (against Daesh). Who is the Empire here ? And who is under military occupation ?
I mean, we know that NATO troops are present in Ukraine, and also western mercenaries. Only western countries seem blind about that reality but the rest of the world know that.
The USA play a game against Russia, and countries like Germany just don't want to pay the price of that game anymore.
You can lie to yourself or to some people on internet. But people in the Donbass (and Russia) knows who is attacking.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Now, what is the solution ? Is there any chance for Ukraine to get some military victory ? If not, they should find an agreement or let them go  live their russian life or whatever they want.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 17, 2015, 12:30:52 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 16, 2015, 09:48:16 pm
Today woman with two children was hit to death by the Ukrainian armored car, woman and one child is alive, 8 y.o. girl is dead. Interesting what ukranian TV says or western media about it

In Russia pedestrian kill car in accident.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 17, 2015, 12:59:54 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 11:28:11 pm
"exagerated"... indeed, there is absolutly no evidence of it.

prove it :P
ok, my point of view here. one year ago some gunmen who have looked like russian soldiers have appeared in crimea.
back then the kremlin has told "no this are not our guys, they are local self defense forces".
a few month later putin-man itself has admitted  "of course this were our guys in crimea".
and then suddenly more gunmen have appeared in eastern ukraine and the kremlin has told "oh, this are local defense forces".

see, and at this point i do not need any evidence anymore. they have lied before and they will lie again (or they will prove me that i am wrong).

Quote
But I can show you tons of evidences of the presence of US troops in european countries ! Even our planes carrier "Charles DeGaulle" is under US command now (against Daesh). Who is the Empire here ? And who is under military occupation ?
I mean, we know that NATO troops are present in Ukraine, and also western mercenaries. Only western countries seem blind about that reality but the rest of the world knows that.
The USA play a game against Russia, and countries like Germany just don't want to pay the price of that game anymore.
You can lie to yourself or to some people on internet. But people in the Donbass (and Russia) knows who is attacking. And that's what is important. Not what I think or what you think of the situation.
...

the thing is there is no black or white. there is only black. every country has some skeletons in the closet.
the usa try to keep their dominance and bully smaller countries.
france still exploits africa and germanyland sells its shit to everyone who can pay for it.
and russia, well russia bullies smaller contries, too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 17, 2015, 06:23:14 am
Quote from: Xant on March 16, 2015, 10:01:02 pm
Why is it interesting? Are you interested about traffic accidents in Poland too?
Xant this is just show that you don't give a f... about Ukraine. And yes, if you have traffic accidents where drunken soldier on armoured car (BTR) hit the child to death on the sidewalk, then show it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 17, 2015, 08:22:29 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 17, 2015, 06:23:14 am
Xant this is just show that you don't give a f... about Ukraine. And yes, if you have traffic accidents where drunken soldier on armoured car (BTR) hit the child to death on the sidewalk, then show it.
Every proper country with free media can show you TONS of ugly accidents involving military personell, police officers, etc.

In LT e.g. there was a cop who got drunk, killed 3 kids with his car, was all over media, not surprising, even if unfortunate and sad.

Accidents happen. When you are at war with russia and military vehicles drive around next to civilians - accidents involving military vehicles happen. There is NOTHING surprising. Non. Nada. Unless you are in shithole russia, where you need to justify why fighting against Ukraine is just and right and <insert random moronic media pushed zombie strato-plane spaceship related reason>. Every bit like this looks like a pitiful attempt to justify your shit-of-a-country waging war against Ukraine and you in person trying to calm your (almost non existent?) conscience, that in some SICK way you are NOT responsible for the shit your country does in Ukraine.

Also - now is about time to remember Odessa fire. Just a friendly reminder... to not get lost in all the media buzz.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 17, 2015, 05:08:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 17, 2015, 06:23:14 am
Xant this is just show that you don't give a f... about Ukraine. And yes, if you have traffic accidents where drunken soldier on armoured car (BTR) hit the child to death on the sidewalk, then show it.
No, this just shows how biased and not-very-smart you are. There are traffic accidents everywhere, ALL THE TIME. If there's anyone to blame it's Russia, there wouldn't be BTRs on the street if Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 17, 2015, 09:04:40 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 17, 2015, 05:08:01 pm
No, this just shows how biased and not-very-smart you are. There are traffic accidents everywhere, ALL THE TIME. If there's anyone to blame it's Russia, there wouldn't be BTRs on the street if Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine.
If there weren't any illegal armed revolution in Kiev, there wouldn't be so many deathes and a war. And if in Finland or Lithuania this is standart situation when drunken soldiers drive BTR just for fun on high speed and hit people, bus or something other(many  situation last monthes, and if you would know russian, I would give you many links to what local citizens think about ukranian army), then in Russia is not
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 17, 2015, 09:29:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 17, 2015, 09:04:40 pm
If there weren't any illegal armed revolution in Kiev, there wouldn't be so many deathes and a war. And if in Finland or Lithuania this is standart situation when drunken soldiers drive BTR just for fun on high speed and hit people, bus or something other(many  situation last monthes, and if you would know russian, I would give you many links to what local citizens think about ukranian army), then in Russia is not
You are an ignorant twat, I dare say.

If not for russias meddling - there would have been no need for maidan and what followed, but your thick russian headbottom is too stupid to take note of that. EVEN if there was a hint at "illegitimacy" in Ukraine - there were PROPER ellections of both president AND parliament, and you still chase these fucked up ghosts. Go recount votes in your russian shithole, where 143% of voters participating is norm and cleptocracy is "legitimate".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 17, 2015, 09:39:11 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 17, 2015, 09:04:40 pm
If there weren't any illegal armed revolution in Kiev, there wouldn't be so many deathes and a war. And if in Finland or Lithuania this is standart situation when drunken soldiers drive BTR just for fun on high speed and hit people, bus or something other(many  situation last monthes, and if you would know russian, I would give you many links to what local citizens think about ukranian army), then in Russia is not
http://www.ibtimes.com/drunk-driving-russia-consequence-massive-alcoholism-795677

Quote
Russia has one of the world’s highest rates of traffic accidents -- about 30,000 people die annually on the roads, some due to alcohol consumption by motorists. (In comparison, that many people died on Britain’s roads between 2000 and 2010, according to the Daily Telegraph newspaper.)

Shamsail Saraliyev, an MP from the ruling United Russia Party, compared drunk driving to terrorism.

"Last year, drunk drivers killed 2,103 people,” Saraliyev told Russian media. “This is a colossal number. This year, as of September, tragedies on the roads have [already] killed 2,300 people.”

By comparison, 57 people were killed in terrorist attacks in Russia last year.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 17, 2015, 10:25:25 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 17, 2015, 12:59:54 am
prove it :P
ok, my point of view here. one year ago some gunmen who have looked like russian soldiers have appeared in crimea.
back then the kremlin has told "no this are not our guys, they are local self defense forces".
a few month later putin-man itself has admitted  "of course this were our guys in crimea".
and then suddenly more gunmen have appeared in eastern ukraine and the kremlin has told "oh, this are local defense forces".

see, and at this point i do not need any evidence anymore. they have lied before and they will lie again (or they will prove me that i am wrong).

the thing is there is no black or white. there is only black. every country has some skeletons in the closet.
the usa try to keep their dominance and bully smaller countries.
france still exploits africa and germanyland sells its shit to everyone who can pay for it.
and russia, well russia bullies smaller contries, too.

I do not talk about Crimea, but Novorossia. Russia had a military base in Crimea, they don't have to justify their presence there. Does americans need to justify the presence of their troops in Poland, Balts, Rumania etc. ?

And to be correct, Steinmeir talked about a "dangerous propaganda". Because informations from german services are completly different from US asserts (especially from General Breedlove).
Why do you think that NATO and the USA were not invited at Minsk 2 ? Because everybody know they will try to deteriorate the situation.
It was even more obvious when they adopted new sanctions just after the cease-fire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 17, 2015, 10:46:07 pm
i dont think tovi understands how a military base works on foreign soil.  Well i dont think tovi knows much about anything to be honest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 17, 2015, 11:09:39 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 17, 2015, 10:46:07 pm
i dont think tovi understands how a military base works on foreign soil.  Well i dont think tovi knows much about anything to be honest.
Unfortunately - he knows how to multiply and vote. As the russian joke stands: crimeariver...

Oh, and Don - did you news agencies flash about these? http://vlada.io/11-dtp-s-uchastiem-boevikov-novorossii-kotoryie-nikogo-ne-vozmutili/ Its in russian even!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 17, 2015, 11:41:11 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 17, 2015, 10:46:07 pm
i dont think tovi understands how a military base works on foreign soil.  Well i dont think tovi knows much about anything to be honest.
Yeah, no shit. I still keep wondering how it's possible for anyone to be that stupid.

Quote from: Tovi on March 16, 2015, 11:28:11 pm
But I can show you tons of evidences of the presence of US troops in european countries ! Even our planes carrier "Charles DeGaulle" is under US command now (against Daesh). Who is the Empire here ? And who is under military occupation ?
That was the best part... seriously, just when I think he can't POSSIBLY say anything dumber, he does it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 18, 2015, 12:33:13 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2015, 10:25:25 pm
I do not talk about Crimea, but Novorossia. Russia had a military base in Crimea, they don't have to justify their presence there. Does americans need to justify the presence of their troops in Poland, Balts, Rumania etc. ?

...
but i talk about crimea because both events are linked.
the merkins holt a nato exercise in the baltics, thats why they have send some troops.

anyway, here is a recent survey of the frankfurter allgemeine zeitung.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/deutsche-geben-putin-schuld-an-ukraine-konflikt-13489423.html (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/deutsche-geben-putin-schuld-an-ukraine-konflikt-13489423.html)
short summary:
55% of all respondents blame russia for the conflict in ukraine, 34% the seperatists, 20% the ukrainian government, 17% the united states and 6% the european union. (multiple answers were possible)
42% fear that the conflict will spread to other regions.

is the reason of the conflict the coup against yanukovych last year? 20% say yes.
7% believe that russia protects the residents in eastern ukraine from the government in kiev.

view of putin, 8% positive opinion, 66% negative opinion.

view of russia
67% see russia as a global power.
87% think that russia plays a important part in world politics.
but 64% have concerns about the stability of russia.

sanctions
39% say keep it, 19% more sanctions, 21% less sanctions
in 01/15 is was 44% for keep or more sanctions and 31% for less sanctions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 06:30:05 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 17, 2015, 09:29:25 pm
You are an ignorant twat, I dare say.

If not for russias meddling - there would have been no need for maidan and what followed, but your thick russian headbottom is too stupid to take note of that. EVEN if there was a hint at "illegitimacy" in Ukraine - there were PROPER ellections of both president AND parliament, and you still chase these fucked up ghosts. Go recount votes in your russian shithole, where 143% of voters participating is norm and cleptocracy is "legitimate".
What Russia meddling? I thought people on maidan were against corruption. And if there were proper elections then there weren't be any Poroshenko or Yatsenyuk, who don't know how to rule just increasing the debt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 18, 2015, 08:20:05 am
Even after Putin admitted in front of the camera that he already decided to annex Crimea weeks before any election there, it's still Western propaganda and not true.
And they call us ignorant...

Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 08:59:55 am
Quote from: Molly on March 18, 2015, 08:20:05 am
Even after Putin admitted in front of the camera that he already decided to annex Crimea weeks before any election there, it's still Western propaganda and not true.
And they call us ignorant...

Unbelievable.
What western propoganda? Western propoganda is only about showing one side and try to hide opinion of other. As I remember Putin made this decision after illegal revolution in Kiev, which was supported by USA. As you can see or you can't Kiev do everything what USA say them, Donbass do what Russia says them. As I said before that this is geopolitical game between Russia and USA. Imho Russia could lose control in Crimea, because of that Putin decided to join Crimea to Russia, and that was easy because citizens of Crimea wanted it too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 18, 2015, 09:09:17 am
Tovi seems to have forgotten France left NATO and had cordial relations with both the US and the Soviets for quite some time. Worst military occupation ever.

It's a bit (completely) retarded to suggest NATO is some sort of military occupation of Europe headed by the US. While simultaneously calling the countries that actually had to deal with real military occupation from the soviets "haters". Strange how every former soviet republic is non-sensically disliking russian military conquest and expansion for no reason whatsoever. It is a mystery. They must be fascists and neo-chocolate chip cookies.

Also, Hungary? Fucking Hungary is pro-Russian? Yeah, no uprisings there ever put down by masses of russian troops and tanks, no sir. They chaffe so under the complete and total control of NATO military occupation, and long for the sweet days of glorious "partnership" with accomodating, anti-imperialist russkies. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 18, 2015, 09:18:05 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 08:59:55 am
What western propoganda? Western propoganda is only about showing one side and try to hide opinion of other. As I remember Putin made this decision after illegal revolution in Kiev, which was supported by USA. As you can see or you can't Kiev do everything what USA say them, Donbass do what Russia says them. As I said before that this is geopolitical game between Russia and USA. Imho Russia could lose control in Crimea, because of that Putin decided to join Crimea to Russia, and that was easy because citizens of Crimea wanted it too.

We don't hide the "opinions" provided to you by state controlled "journalists". We parade them and laugh at them as the anachronistic early 20th century throwbacks that they are. Keep pretending there isn't a third world style cult of personality built around your dictator for life though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 09:23:59 am
Quote from: Oberyn on March 18, 2015, 09:09:17 am
Strange how every former soviet republic is non-sensically disliking russian military conquest and expansion for no reason whatsoever. It is a mystery. They must be fascists and neo-chocolate chip cookies.
Every? Really? As I see people in "occupied" territories are glad to be friendly with Russia - South Osetia, Crimea or Donbass. Can't understand why some western people think that they were against Russia. Or you don't think so
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 18, 2015, 09:30:19 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 09:23:59 am
Every? Really? As I see people in "occupied" territories are glad to be friendly with Russia - South Osetia, Crimea or Donbass. Can't understand why some western people think that they were against Russia. Or you don't think so

Yeah, I'm sure the russian populations in all the border countries they tried colonizing, destroying entire generations of intellectuals and intelligentsia with the specific goal of eradicating their languages and cultures, and who to this day refuse to integrate or learn the language of the "natives" in any way, would be overjoyed to rejoin Russia. Obviously the "haters" with the misfortune of having in the past shared a land border with Russia, having just seen Ukraine getting picked appart and parceled according to ethnic divisions created by decades, evne hundreds of years in some cases, of russian imperialism have absolutely nothing to fear. Anyways, they're all chocolate chip cookies and fascists that hate russians and want to genocide them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on March 18, 2015, 09:30:41 am
Why are you people still trying to reason with them? They have repeatedly showed that it is a useless task that will have no effect on their already established mindsets...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 18, 2015, 09:38:11 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 06:30:05 am
What Russia meddling? I thought people on maidan were against corruption. And if there were proper elections then there weren't be any Poroshenko or Yatsenyuk, who don't know how to rule just increasing the debt.
Now THAT is news... :)

Try harder, you will see much new around you. Especially try looking a bit BEYOND the borders and ideas which are created in the shithole you call russia. Those include "maidan was only about corruption" and "russia was not blackmailing Yanukovich" and the infamous "slav world", which implies that slav countries can't prosper without the shithole russia ruling over them and their interests.

P.S. Even your putler accepted the elections in Ukraine (both of president and rada, AFTER the whole maidan thing), you stray away from the approved political line... please reconsider  :rolleyes: And leave these "illegitimacy" ghosts in russias 143% voters districts...

P.P.S. http://www.newsru.com/crime/17mar2015/chocolate chip cookiebeatukrpdmsk.html See what is happening in naztee infested country? Omai... odear... (you will have to replace "chocolate chip cookie" with a proper word for the link to work :D )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2015, 11:00:18 am
Quote from: Mala on March 18, 2015, 12:33:13 am
but i talk about crimea because both events are linked.
the merkins holt a nato exercise in the baltics, thats why they have send some troops.

anyway, here is a recent survey of the frankfurter allgemeine zeitung.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/deutsche-geben-putin-schuld-an-ukraine-konflikt-13489423.html (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/deutsche-geben-putin-schuld-an-ukraine-konflikt-13489423.html)
short summary:
55% of all respondents blame russia for the conflict in ukraine, 34% the seperatists, 20% the ukrainian government, 17% the united states and 6% the european union. (multiple answers were possible)
42% fear that the conflict will spread to other regions.

is the reason of the conflict the coup against yanukovych last year? 20% say yes.
7% believe that russia protects the residents in eastern ukraine from the government in kiev.

view of putin, 8% positive opinion, 66% negative opinion.

view of russia
67% see russia as a global power.
87% think that russia plays a important part in world politics.
but 64% have concerns about the stability of russia.

sanctions
39% say keep it, 19% more sanctions, 21% less sanctions
in 01/15 is was 44% for keep or more sanctions and 31% for less sanctions.

As I said, public opinion in Germany is turning. 55% is a short majority. It's even a surprise considering the western media orientation. Putin telepathy maybe ?
Nobody answered to the possible issue of the conflict. Brainwashed westerners always says : "Putin, Putin, Putin !" , because TV shows the new Monster/einstein/Satan.
Putin or not, separatists don't want to be ukrainians anymore. What do you want ? Kill them all ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 18, 2015, 11:28:01 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2015, 11:00:18 am
As I said, public opinion in Germany is turning. 55% is a short majority. It's even a surprise considering the western media orientation. Putin telepathy maybe ?
Nobody answered to the possible issue of the conflict. Brainwashed westerners always says : "Putin, Putin, Putin !" , because TV shows the new Monster/einstein/Satan.
Putin or not, separatists don't want to be ukrainians anymore. What do you want ? Kill them all ?
Latest footage of Tovi:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2015, 01:11:44 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2015, 11:00:18 am
separatists don't want to be ukrainians anymore. What do you want ? Kill them all ?

they could just drive like 20km east and be russians in russia, instead of assholes in ukraine.

them to leave and end a absolutely pointless war

sure yes, if it stops the war.  Sometimes you have to separate the wheat from the chaff
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 01:22:13 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 18, 2015, 09:30:19 am
Yeah, I'm sure the russian populations in all the border countries they tried colonizing, destroying entire generations of intellectuals and intelligentsia with the specific goal of eradicating their languages and cultures, and who to this day refuse to integrate or learn the language of the "natives" in any way, would be overjoyed to rejoin Russia.
Oberyn, really learn history about Ukraine since 9 century, then say, because in this situation it seems stupid

Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2015, 01:11:44 pm
they could just drive like 20km east and be russians in russia, instead of assholes in ukraine.
Piece of good advice. It was necessary only to build houses for several million people
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 18, 2015, 01:30:29 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2015, 01:11:44 pm
them to leave and end a absolutely pointless war

Pointless war? There is no such thing. Every modern war is a money making machine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 18, 2015, 01:37:54 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 01:22:13 pm
Oberyn, really learn history about Ukraine since 9 century, then say, because in this situation it seems stupid
I have my doubts that you know history better than him. There is a reason why historians (and history books) from Russia are ridiculed everywhere beyond your western borders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 01:52:35 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 18, 2015, 01:37:54 pm
I have my doubts that you know history better than him. There is a reason why historians (and history books) from Russia are ridiculed everywhere beyond your western borders.
Yep, because of that Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland said that ukranians freed Auschwitz. Yatsenyuk said that Russia occupied Germany and Obama thought that Crimea went from Russia in 19 century
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 18, 2015, 02:59:13 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 01:52:35 pm
Yep, because of that Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland said that ukranians freed Auschwitz. Yatsenyuk said that Russia occupied Germany and Obama thought that Crimea went from Russia in 19 century
Selective quotes for quality channel RT much! Such wow. Educational bliss.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 04:14:18 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 18, 2015, 03:00:27 pm
Well that and the fact that until really recently it was not allowed to study or research the possibility of Viking presence in Russia because it didn't fit the national theme/narrative. Now suddenly since this has become less frowned upon all this evidence appears that never existed before! As a single example I think that fairly accurately depicts why the rest of the world does not hold the official history of Russia in high regard.
I don't know where did you get it, but when we studied in the school, everybody knew that history uf the Rus begins from the date when Rus called Knyaz from varyags, who called vikings on the west. And Ruriks began to rule. Or this something different on the west?
Quote from: Kuujis on March 18, 2015, 02:59:13 pm
Selective quotes for quality channel RT much! Such wow. Educational bliss.
Wow you tried to look clever, pitty that it was just a try.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 18, 2015, 04:38:17 pm
haha this is a good one, fits this forum perfectly :D :D :D

Q: Whats the difference between a smart Russian and a pink gay unicorn?
A: Nothing, they're both fictional characters
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2015, 05:14:37 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 01:22:13 pm
Piece of good advice. It was necessary only to build houses for several million people

it would have never been several million if you didnt create a warzone and shuffle millions out of their homes.  Dont you see the irony, you created the fucking problem that you are complaining about.  There arent millions of rebels, only a few thousand, so if they feel that passionate about russia, move to russia.  Except, they already live in russia, because they are russian soldiers......
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 05:44:17 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2015, 05:14:37 pm
it would have never been several million if you didnt create a warzone and shuffle millions out of their homes.  Dont you see the irony, you created the fucking problem that you are complaining about.  There arent millions of rebels, only a few thousand, so if they feel that passionate about russia, move to russia.  Except, they already live in russia, because they are russian soldiers......
this is just show that you don't know anything about people in Donbass and their opinion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 18, 2015, 05:55:55 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2015, 05:14:37 pm
it would have never been several million if you didnt create a warzone and shuffle millions out of their homes.  Dont you see the irony, you created the fucking problem that you are complaining about.  There arent millions of rebels, only a few thousand, so if they feel that passionate about russia, move to russia.  Except, they already live in russia, because they are russian soldiers......
so why maidan didnt run in eu? )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 18, 2015, 08:40:19 pm
I find Vovka take on this particularly strange. It's a lot of jokes in Slavenglish with an ambiguous undertone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2015, 11:47:26 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 18, 2015, 01:11:44 pm
they could just drive like 20km east and be russians in russia, instead of assholes in ukraine.

them to leave and end a absolutely pointless war

sure yes, if it stops the war.  Sometimes you have to separate the wheat from the chaff

Well, you know, 1 million eastern ukrainians have left their country already. They are now dispatched everywhere in Russia. And they talk about what they lived.
That's why russians don't need any propaganda to make their own opinion of the situation in Ukraine.
You all should admit that YOUR opinion is much more dependant on your national medias.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 18, 2015, 11:57:49 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 18, 2015, 11:28:01 am
Latest footage of Tovi:
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Xant, I can imagine you on your PC, searching for trisomics pictures, for hours. Or is it taken from your personal collection ?

Boy, you seem pretty...disturbed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 19, 2015, 12:28:38 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2015, 11:57:49 pm
Xant, I can imagine you on your PC, searching for trisomics pictures, for hours. Or is it taken from your personal collection ?
Boy, you seem pretty...disturbed.
I bet someone post  dat picture relatively Xant on another forum  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2015, 12:58:33 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 18, 2015, 11:57:49 pm
Xant, I can imagine you on your PC, searching for trisomics pictures, for hours. Or is it taken from your personal collection ?

Boy, you seem pretty...disturbed.
I bet you think so, because as demonstrated, Google is black magic to you. But for those of us blessed with the power of >60IQ it only takes a few seconds. See, life is so much easier when you're not retarded! Sorry, that was mean, nobody chooses to be born as dumb as you. Here, I found another gif about you:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Quote from: Vovka on March 19, 2015, 12:28:38 am
I bet someone post  dat picture relatively Xant on another forum  :P
Is it just me or is your English getting worse and worse? Lay off the vodka, Vovka.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 19, 2015, 05:23:05 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 18, 2015, 05:44:17 pm
this is just show that you don't know anything about people in Donbass and their opinion.

Really? And what exactly is there to know about the people of Donbass and their misguided opinion of the political affairs?

What would have possibly happened to the people in Donbass if they chose not to fight and stay in Ukraine. Would have they been massmurdered? No way. Ruled by na zis? Ukr government is not fascist. Russians in Donbass would have lost a lot of their rights? Doubt it. Compared to rest of Europe, russians in Russia have actually less rights than other people in EU. They would have economically suffered? They are suffering right now and much worse. Crimea is even economically suffering, althou there is no battles there atm. And its going to suffer for atleast 10 years.

Russia doesnt care about russians, it just uses them. All russian government cares about is squarekm and being a counterpower to the West, even if it means just being straight up wrong and at the cost of its own peoples wellfare. Once again, nothing bad would have happened to people of Donbass if they stood together with Ukr.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 19, 2015, 07:32:44 am
Quote from: Tibe on March 19, 2015, 05:23:05 am
Really? And what exactly is there to know about the people of Donbass and their misguided opinion of the political affairs?

What would have possibly happened to the people in Donbass if they chose not to fight and stay in Ukraine. Would have they been massmurdered? No way. Ruled by na zis? Ukr government is not fascist. Russians in Donbass would have lost a lot of their rights? Doubt it. Compared to rest of Europe, russians in Russia have actually less rights than other people in EU. They would have economically suffered? They are suffering right now and much worse. Crimea is even economically suffering, althou there is no battles there atm. And its going to suffer for atleast 10 years.

Russia doesnt care about russians, it just uses them. All russian government cares about is squarekm and being a counterpower to the West, even if it means just being straight up wrong and at the cost of its own peoples wellfare. Once again, nothing bad would have happened to people of Donbass if they stood together with Ukr.
Why you say these silly things to the bunch of mindless ants, who are only proud to feed their cleptocracy? Didn't you know they are proud ot this shithole they have built?

oh, and just so were clear - seems your puppets are on the move again. Now, since they can't do shit on their own, they are waiting for ruskies army troops, which wait until putler deems "Minsk2 lasted long enough and here you go a random reason, why I got bored of it the agreement  is no longer valid".

https://slon.ru/posts/49453

Oh... shit, wrong link intentionally :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 19, 2015, 07:36:54 am
The sad thing is while the (more or less) civilized world focusses on unneccessary shit like this, ISIS and friends keep cutting off development aid worker heads and blowing up world cultural heritage sites. This is something a combined effort of the world's best special forces should take care off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 08:23:10 am
Quote from: Tibe on March 19, 2015, 05:23:05 am
Really? And what exactly is there to know about the people of Donbass and their misguided opinion of the political affairs?

What would have possibly happened to the people in Donbass if they chose not to fight and stay in Ukraine. Would have they been massmurdered? No way. Ruled by na zis? Ukr government is not fascist. Russians in Donbass would have lost a lot of their rights? Doubt it. Compared to rest of Europe, russians in Russia have actually less rights than other people in EU. They would have economically suffered? They are suffering right now and much worse. Crimea is even economically suffering, althou there is no battles there atm. And its going to suffer for atleast 10 years.

Russia doesnt care about russians, it just uses them. All russian government cares about is squarekm and being a counterpower to the West, even if it means just being straight up wrong and at the cost of its own peoples wellfare. Once again, nothing bad would have happened to people of Donbass if they stood together with Ukr.
Well new power was against Russia from the beginning, some of them wanted to remove russian language, some wanted to remove russian port from Crimea. Before revolution in Donbass there were a lot of antimaidan on the south east. It was biggest fault that new power began a war against them, but it was after visiting of USA generals. Now Donbass for a long time will be separate from Ukraine. Also if you would know russian you could see what Donbass citizens say about ukranian army.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2015, 10:02:09 am
Quote from: Paul on March 19, 2015, 07:36:54 am
The sad thing is while the (more or less) civilized world focusses on unneccessary shit like this, ISIS and friends keep cutting off development aid worker heads and blowing up world cultural heritage sites. This is something a combined effort of the world's best special forces should take care off.
I hope you're being sarcastic.

That part of the world has been and will always be a goatfuck. ISIS isn't markedly worse than what they've had before. Any westerners getting their heads cut off there deserve a Darwin award. The Kurds are the only decent thing there, and they are getting help, especially from US veterans who were in the area.

But I'm sure if ISIS gets killed off, the rest of the Muslims in the area will embrace democracy and be virtually indistinguishable from your average westerner, singing kumbayah my lord around a cozy fire.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2015, 02:06:09 pm
What's worse than being kidnapped by Chechen terrorists? Being rescued by Russian Special Forces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 02:45:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 19, 2015, 02:06:09 pm
What's worse than being kidnapped by Chechen terrorists? Being rescued by Russian Special Forces.
Finish humour sucks
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2015, 02:51:21 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 08:23:10 am
Well new power was against Russia from the beginning, some of them wanted to remove russian language, some wanted to remove russian port from Crimea. Before revolution in Donbass there were a lot of antimaidan on the south east. It was biggest fault that new power began a war against them, but it was after visiting of USA generals. Now Donbass for a long time will be separate from Ukraine. Also if you would know russian you could see what Donbass citizens say about ukranian army.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2015, 02:59:39 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 17, 2015, 10:25:25 pm
I do not talk about Crimea, but Novorossia. Russia had a military base in Crimea, they don't have to justify their presence there. Does americans need to justify the presence of their troops in Poland, Balts, Rumania etc. ?

And to be correct, Steinmeir talked about a "dangerous propaganda". Because informations from german services are completly different from US asserts (especially from General Breedlove).
Why do you think that NATO and the USA were not invited at Minsk 2 ? Because everybody know they will try to deteriorate the situation.
It was even more obvious when they adopted new sanctions just after the cease-fire.

Tovi, can you read at least Wikipedia? You don't even have a basic simple knowledge of what you're speaking about. Do you even know where the base was? Do you know that it was (and still is, even under Russian jurisdiction) a separate region with its own local government? There were 27 IIRC regions in Ukraine, Crimea was one of them, Sevastopol was also one of them (there were only 2 city-regions in Ukraine: Kiev and Sevastopol). Nothing to say that Russian soldiers were not only forbidden to move out from Sevastopol but also from military bases at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2015, 03:11:06 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 19, 2015, 03:00:12 pm
Page 2 of this thread:
Recent pages Xant is either about poor Ukranians being abused by evil Russian military (suddenly he cares so much), or posting gifs compiled of selfies he's taken lately. It's amazing how much can change in 500 pages without the posts becoming any more intelligent.

I feel a bit bad for Nicko given that in threads like this everyone circle-jerks for the first pages, then gets bored of agreeing with each other and actually asks for a Russian person to give their perspective, then it's back to circle-jerking against them as thanks for being devil's advocate. Some degree of it is understandable, but getting to the point where every time Nicko says anything there are suddenly half a dozen posts full of personal attacks or generic internet memes it's amazing he even bothers. But if he didn't you'd all get bored of this thread, so show him some respect, he's kept it alive for 500 pages even if it has descended into Xant posting selfies.

Instead of a real discussion about the situation - we have a bunch of brainless clowns making this thread a misleading piece of shit. At first nobody even asked to give their perspective a million of times. One post was enough. Nicko gets this amount of personal attacks because he deserves actually much more than this. I would actually beat the shit of a person with such "point of view", I'm trying to keep it in a funny way because it actually hurts, I've lost a couple of people I know during this war, some more are wounded. And everytime this idiot Nicko or Tovi or any other says that it's a civil war like Ukrainian fascists fighting Ukrainian civilians it hurts even more because there are really many people especially in Russia who truly believe it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 19, 2015, 03:35:54 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 19, 2015, 03:17:29 pm
I must've been thinking of a different thread where someone asked for a Russian person's perspective. I tried to find the post in the first few pages here but about 70% of the posts are Xant trying to sound like a big man (he's still doing it on the same thread 15 months later lol) and it's pretty tedious to try and find anything of value. I'll take your word that no one asked for a second opinion here.

Many people had a negative opinion about rioters on Maidan and the whole action including me and I repeated it like how many times? Though it has nothing to do with what's happening on the east of Ukraine. It's a mythical reason used by Russia to annex territories and destroy Ukraine. Have you ever thought about simple things? Okay, lets imagine those people are all local miners from Donbass (I don't even say that Ukraine never had those nationalities there), where were they during Maidan? Why didn't they fight for their opinion there against rioters with wooden shields? And they suddenly got weapons, tanks and so on to fight against regular army of Ukraine.

That's a completely different story. Russian current propaganda is a complete fascism. The way they act is just ridiculous and childish, it reminds me kindergarden when someone farted and immediately blamed someone in farting. The whole topic is just bullshit: There is no Ukraine, Ukraine is not a country, there is no Ukrainian culture, there are no Ukrainians, Ukrainian language doesn't exist - it's just a mix of other languages, Khohkly/Ukry/Ukropy/Benderovtsy (that's how they call Ukrainians), More than a half of Ukraine historically belongs to Russia (including Kiev), the rest belongs to other countries (Poland, Hungary, Romania and so on). The Ukrainian flag is considered as a sign extremism (and they don't even accept that they fight against Ukrainie) and so on, so on and so on.

Okay, lets say that jews are not the nation, there is no jewish culture and jews don't deserve their own land. And lets deny Holocaust. GGWP.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 04:29:49 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 19, 2015, 03:11:06 pm
And everytime this idiot Nicko or Tovi or any other says that it's a civil war like Ukrainian fascists fighting Ukrainian civilians it hurts even more because there are really many people especially in Russia who truly believe it.
I saw, that you just hate Russia from your posts, even when you posted a fake about russian veterans. As my grandma said most of Ukranians believe that they fight against Russian troops. So same situation. Russia media calls it civil war. I think about 25% of armoured people in Donbass are from Russia, but still 75% are Ukranians. This conflict made not only by Russia. Can Russia support separatists with weapon? Yes they can, even some businesmen can do it from Russia. Zhirinovskiy did it as I know. My aunt lives in Luhansk (Thanks she is alive), and she says opinion of the most people in Donbass. They just can't understand why ukranian army was shelling their towns, and then they see that on ukranian TV journalists say that they shelled themselves. And that was every day. You know opinion in Ukraine, I was trying to show opinion in Donbass. But I think you know it just prefer to keep silence.
And I will show protests against maidan again
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 19, 2015, 06:13:37 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 19, 2015, 07:36:54 am
The sad thing is while the (more or less) civilized world focusses on unneccessary shit like this, ISIS and friends keep cutting off development aid worker heads and blowing up world cultural heritage sites. This is something a combined effort of the world's best special forces should take care off.

Special forces killed Osama and what changed? What needs to be done is USA to stop supporting oil rich countries, who are financing ISIS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 06:45:09 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 19, 2015, 06:13:37 pm
Special forces killed Osama and what changed? What needs to be done is USA to stop supporting oil rich countries, who are financing ISIS.
USA supported Taliban to fight against USSR in Afghanistan, then they send troops to fight against Taliban. They supported opposition in Syria, who became ISIS. Now they try to fight with them. What next?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 19, 2015, 07:09:02 pm
@Nicko:

Well USSR supported lots of anti-US movements through the COLD WAR as well. Don't be an idiot please. The cold war was a long series of IDEOLOGICALLY MOTIVATED proxy wars between USSR and US. They tried to fight each other in any possible way, without fighting directly.

@Heskey

This thread would be more interesting if it were not for people like Xant and Tovi. Both just spewing their different kinds of BS..

Still though, it's a little bit scary how so many people believe the absurd notion that Ukraine can blame itself for this. You have to stand on a mountain of conspiracy theories to believe it. Of course, credit to the russian propaganda machine for making so many people believe in their shit, and probably make many more insecure about whats actually going on.

Funny thing is that this whole story has been played back before in georgia for example. Russia supporting small separatist area, to keep strategic advantages, as having a dagger in Georgia's side they can twist whenever they want.

Exactly the same in Ukraine, they have organized a situation where they can never be free. A weak, shitty Ukraine is great for Kremlin. They can get cheap workforce, as well as selling the idea that even thinking about western ideas will lead to hell. They can just point to Ukraine, and scare their own population with chocolate chip cookies...

Anyway.. The extreme polarization of opinions, no one seems to be "in the middle", is caused because RF propaganda is so insanely upside down. It's futile to buy "half of it", because you need the whole package if it is to make any sense.

Here it is:

* RF is surrounded by enemies  (NATO is not an enemy of RF. The idea of a war between RF and NATO is absurd. MAD ensures peace.)
* West is weak, corrupt, morally and sexually degenerate. (Truth is Russia is the most corrupt and oppressing - no morals country )
* The west is just as bad, if not worse than Russia for its people. (LOL, go travel to see a normal, working society Nicko, Tovi go to Russia and see for urself how shitty it is. And I don't mean the extreme poverty and differences between rich and poor. Just see how the system itself is extremely rotten. )
* Russia is not to blame for its poverty and shitty situation. (It is. You have not been able to fix your society after communism like many other countries has.)
* New gvnm in Ukraine are fascists. (This is perhaps 5% true and 95% untrue.)
* Russians in Ukraine was under threat. (Simply, no. But yes there was some anti-russian sentiment, considering a lot of people was sick of following the Russia way, and they had a corrupt, useless president that was nothing more than a russian puppet in the end. Also considering ex-presidents poisoned by russian agents in the past. Yes.. considering the past. Not strange at all.  Still, most people had nothing against russians or russian language. )
* If west can do as it likes, then so can russia. (None of them should.)
* CIA snipers/UKR shooting down MH17 kind of sentiment. Totally unproven BS taken from thin air.

----- In the end though, I'm curious of the first emotion of Russians when Ukraine was about to slide away. Was it humiliating? Are you happy your president took action? What did you FEEL? (I think this is interesting..)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 07:25:52 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 19, 2015, 07:09:02 pm
@Nicko:

Well USSR supported lots of anti-US movements through the COLD WAR as well. Don't be an idiot please. The cold war was a long series of IDEOLOGICALLY MOTIVATED proxy wars between USSR and US. They tried to fight each other in any possible way, without fighting directly.
Syria too?
Quote from: Thomek on March 19, 2015, 07:09:02 pm
* The west is just as bad, if not worse than Russia for its people. (LOL, go travel to see a normal, working society Nicko)
Did I say something about EU society, seems you missed something, and all other things you wrote are just trolls from internet
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 19, 2015, 08:15:15 pm
Tell me what you felt when green men took crimea Nicko.

Putin supports Assad because it is the only ally of RF in the middle east.  I also root for Assad, but for entirely different reasons, the main one being that the alternative is ISIS and other insane religious groups.

US, under their retarded media pressure, supported the maniacs, but most of the weapons and money was given by equally religious maniacs from Qatar and aligned countries.

In the end, you cannot compare Syria and Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 08:35:48 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 19, 2015, 08:15:15 pm
Tell me what you felt when green men took crimea Nicko.

Putin supports Assad because it is the only ally of RF in the middle east.  I also root for Assad, but for entirely different reasons, the main one being that the alternative is ISIS and other insane religious groups.

US, under their retarded media pressure, supported the maniacs, but most of the weapons and money was given by equally religious maniacs from Qatar and aligned countries.

In the end, you cannot compare Syria and Ukraine.
I didn't compare Syria and Ukraine ever. My conclusion was that USA support terrorists which they need to fight then.
About Crimea, I said it earlier that I don't agree with joining of Crimea. But as I said Russia couldn't lose control of that region. Because USA ships could stay there after that revolution, there was one attempt after USSR fell. IMHO Putin took Crimea just because to save military bases there, and population in Crimea wanted to join Russia, maybe because of russian propoganda. I post here just another point of view, it can be wrong but thinking that your point of view is true is wrong too. As I said before that Conflict in Ukraine is the geopolitical game between Russia and USA.
Just for fun:
In 19 century we learnt French in schools and entered Paris.
In 20 century we learnt German in schools and entered Berlin.
In 21 century we are learning English.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 19, 2015, 09:50:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 02:45:25 pm
Finish humour sucks
It's not humor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 19, 2015, 09:53:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 08:35:48 pm
In 19 century we learnt French in schools and entered Paris.
In 20 century we learnt German in schools and entered Berlin.
In 21 century we are learning English.

Bwahahahahaha, seriously?

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What are you, a russian occupant?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 19, 2015, 11:12:47 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 19, 2015, 09:53:06 pm
Bwahahahahaha, seriously?

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What are you, a russian occupant?
No, its delusions of grandeur. Or simple delusions.

Any french care to remember, what even would make this joke "trueish"? Because now it sounds like "if you make 4 mistakes in a word "mom" you get a word "beer".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 19, 2015, 11:14:43 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 19, 2015, 09:53:06 pm
Bwahahahahaha, seriously?

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What are you, a russian occupant?
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 soon we will come for your resources!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 19, 2015, 11:22:45 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 19, 2015, 07:09:02 pm
* Russians in Ukraine

Probably you know that but here lies one small example of how simplified everybody talks about this whole conflict. There is a difference between Russians in Ukraine and russian speaking Ukrainians. The latter are not Russians only because they speak the russian language. And there is no mandatory connection between the political or geopolitical orientation of one person and his preferred language.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 20, 2015, 01:44:00 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on March 19, 2015, 11:22:45 pm
Probably you know that but here lies one small example of how simplified everybody talks about this whole conflict. There is a difference between Russians in Ukraine and russian speaking Ukrainians. The latter are not Russians only because they speak the russian language. And there is no mandatory connection between the political or geopolitical orientation of one person and his preferred language.

Yeah, should have written russian speakers..

Anyway Nicko, good to hear your opinion about crimea.. yet you pull another card which is called "Geopolitics", which defenders of the RF agenda in Ukraine often pull. Somehow it seems like it excuses RF actions in Ukraine, but I don't buy it.

So.. what about Geopolitics? It doesn't make any geopolitical sense either.

Influence, when it comes to the west, means eastern european countries THROWING themselves at EU/NATO. It is EU and NATO that has to put on the brakes and demand they get in shape before they join.

Influence, in RF it means holding territory in the name of separatists, (transnitria, donbass, south ossetia & abkhazia). It means heavy meddling with internal affairs of said countries, heavy propaganda, bought politicians, war. Basically, you have single-handedly chased the whole eastern block to EU/NATO by having nothing to offer but cheap gas.

Geopolitically, RF is nothing. The only thing it has is a vast territory, gas and oil. You don't export anything of value except raw materials and the occasional weapon system. The focus should be to get good deals on said exports, and face the fact that there is still a huge job in fixing your country at home, before you can get competitive.

The Ukraine action has only punished RF and Russians worldwide. Europe is doing all it can to end dependency on Russian gas. Sanctions are in place that are being felt. The careful trust that existed in the post cold war period is gone. The word of RF is worth zero. Especially after all the insane lies coming from official sources and state media during UKR conflict.

For what gain??? Bleeding Ukraine of manpower and resources? Stopping NATO? If anything now NATO are increasing their budgets all over because of russian actions. Keeping crimeas naval base in the smallest ocean in the world? A destroyed and war torn piece of Ukraine? Don't you have enough land already?

IDK how this shit will end, but I don't believe in a bigger war. If anything it will hasten an internal crisis inside Russia that will lead to some kind of change. Anyway though, it won't go down as peacefully as USSR breakup. An optimist can hope for normalization of east west relation, but it will probably cost RF all its gains in Ukraine. Nothing changes, everyone looses.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 07:29:35 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 20, 2015, 01:44:00 am
So.. what about Geopolitics? It doesn't make any geopolitical sense either.
Yes, it doesn't if only countries don't prepare for war. I don't want any wars, but Russia and NATO spend a lot of money now to equip army with modern weapon. And gun will shoot one day. IMHO from ukranian conflict there is only one country who gained something. I think you know what country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 07:50:24 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 07:29:35 am
IMHO from ukranian conflict there is only one country who gained something. I think you know what country.
Oh my fucking god.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on March 20, 2015, 08:07:22 am
I got one more crackpot idea:
With the revival of the cold war and the resulting rearmament/arms race of the major players, the military industries of all sides don't need to entice small wars/military incursions around the world anymore. So the Ukraine conflict is just an act of philanthropy, trying to keep overall casulties low(pretty cynical for the Ukrainians/Russians involved) while ensuring future profit for the arms industry.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2015, 08:19:26 am
Quote from: Paul on March 20, 2015, 08:07:22 am
I got one more crackpot idea:
With the revival of the cold war and the resulting rearmament/arms race of the major players, the military industries of all sides don't need to entice small wars/military incursions around the world anymore. So the Ukraine conflict is just an act of philanthropy, trying to keep overall casulties low(pretty cynical for the Ukrainians/Russians involved) while ensuring future profit for the arms industry.
it looks more like a project for utilization of stocks of old military vehicles since World War II in Europe (like Saxons from England and the APC and the T-72 from Poland and Russia)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 09:50:48 am
http://belsat.eu/en/articles/crimea-ours-whos-next-moscow-rally-participants-want-poland-finland-belarus-ukraine/

Quote
"Ole-ole-ole! Crimea is ours! Let's go for Poland and Finland!" a lot of people chanted.

Putin try to put soldiers in Finland i wait i am very great soldier i can move dark forest and no one cant see me, when my eyes see u soldiers, i hunting u soldiers than maniac and i take them down one by one. Putin i think u are forget to take u medications u need seek help!!! I hate Russian country whole my heart so i am so ready make all my best i can revenge that day Russian steal Finland land lot. I want send Putin dress he need swear that. Damm losers whole Russian country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 20, 2015, 10:44:17 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 07:29:35 am
Yes, it doesn't if only countries don't prepare for war. I don't want any wars, but Russia and NATO spend a lot of money now to equip army with modern weapon. And gun will shoot one day. IMHO from ukranian conflict there is only one country who gained something. I think you know what country.

Countries preparing for war... lets see...

US - figting already on multiple spots in Middle East, war weariness at home, I can't think of any geopolitical interest in Ukraine (BEFORE the war created by russia), even after russia started the war - it is at best "in the background".
EU - diminished their military spending to no ends, basically a shell of former military strength after Cold War ended.
China - increasing military spending like mad, has overabundance of population just accross the border of under-populated, but resource rich Siberia.

Now, according to the logic or ruskies, lets see who is a threat and who is a friend? :) Thats right - WEST is enemy, China is friend! Congrats comrade.

You would be funny, maybe even like Vovka, but in reality both of you are just sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 11:39:39 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 20, 2015, 10:44:17 am
Countries preparing for war... lets see...

US - figting already on multiple spots in Middle East, war weariness at home, I can't think of any geopolitical interest in Ukraine (BEFORE the war created by russia), even after russia started the war - it is at best "in the background".
EU - diminished their military spending to no ends, basically a shell of former military strength after Cold War ended.
China - increasing military spending like mad, has overabundance of population just accross the border of under-populated, but resource rich Siberia.

Now, according to the logic or ruskies, lets see who is a threat and who is a friend? :) Thats right - WEST is enemy, China is friend! Congrats comrade.

You would be funny, maybe even like Vovka, but in reality both of you are just sad.
You can't see geopolitical interests, it is your problem that your TV doesn't say about it. And seems you don't know anything about what a huge cooperation Russia and China have. If China would begin a war, they would destroy Japan first.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2015, 11:41:42 am
Cooperation, like buying gas from ruskies for a fraction of its market value?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 11:44:10 am
Quote from: Christo on March 20, 2015, 11:41:42 am
Cooperation, like buying gas from ruskies for a fraction of its market value?  :mrgreen:
I am not surprised that it is only your knowledge.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2015, 11:45:15 am
Typical russian, tries so hard at typing the correct sentence, still misses a word
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 11:47:39 am
Quote from: Christo on March 20, 2015, 11:45:15 am
Typical russian, tries so hard at typing the correct sentence, still misses a word
Racist
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 11:49:20 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 11:39:39 am
You can't see geopolitical interests, it is your problem that your TV doesn't say about it. And seems you don't know anything about what a huge cooperation Russia and China have. If China would begin a war, they would destroy Japan first.
Except war with Japan would give them nothing. No land that they desperately need, nothing. Only thing they would get is a war with the United States and its allies + Japan. A war that they would lose 100-0. So no, they would not start a war with Japan.

Compared to a war with Russia which, when won, would give them all they need. And it's actually a war they could and would win.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2015, 11:50:03 am
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 11:47:39 am
Racist

 Russian is not a race, go home ivan and keep learning that english, so that you can 'enter' London in 2050.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:03:13 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 20, 2015, 11:50:03 am
Russian is not a race, go home ivan and keep learning that english, so that you can 'enter' London in 2050.

 :lol:
Your attitude just will cause that you will be fucked harder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 12:09:18 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:03:13 pm
Your attitude just will cause that you will be fucked harder.
Put your mother in a straight jacket, you punk ass white boy. Come here and tell me that and I'll fuck you in the ass, you punk white boy. You bundle of sticks. You can't touch me, you're not man enough. I eat your asshole alive you bitch. Fuck you you ho. Come say to my face and I fuck you ass for everybody. You bitch. Come on you bitch. You scared coward, you not man enough to fuck with me. You can't last two minutes in my world bitch. Look at ya  scared now you ho. Scared like a little white pussy. Scared of the real man. I'll fuck you till you love me bundle of sticks!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2015, 12:11:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:03:13 pm
Your attitude just will cause that you will be fucked harder.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:13:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 20, 2015, 12:09:18 pm
Put your mother in a straight jacket, you punk ass white boy. Come here and tell me that and I'll fuck you in the ass, you punk white boy. You bundle of sticks. You can't touch me, you're not man enough. I eat your asshole alive you bitch. Fuck you you ho. Come say to my face and I fuck you ass for everybody. You bitch. Come on you bitch. You scared coward, you not man enough to fuck with me. You can't last two minutes in my world bitch. Look at ya  scared now you ho. Scared like a little white pussy. Scared of the real man. I'll fuck you till you love me bundle of sticks!
Stop yelping
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 12:14:15 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:13:18 pm
Stop yelping
Ye-yelping, DonNicko-san?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 20, 2015, 12:16:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:03:13 pm
Your attitude just will cause that you will be fucked harder.

And who is gonna be doing the fucking?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:18:26 pm
Quote from: Vibe on March 20, 2015, 12:16:02 pm
And who is gonna be doing the fucking?
Don't know, this kind of people will be fucked anyways.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 20, 2015, 12:25:42 pm
Ok Christo, since we don't have more data, statistically you have the same chance of being fucked by a sweaty slav or DonNicko's mom. Which is probably one and the same.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:30:20 pm
Quote from: Vibe on March 20, 2015, 12:25:42 pm
Ok Christo, since we don't have more data, statistically you have the same chance of being fucked by a sweaty slav or DonNicko's mom. Which is probably one and the same.
Vibe your attitude not far from Christo's. I would hit you between your eyes for my mother.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 20, 2015, 12:35:08 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:30:20 pm
Vibe your attitude not far from Christo's. I would hit you between your eyes for my mother.

:-(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 20, 2015, 01:25:53 pm
Gloves are off, finally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 20, 2015, 03:22:39 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 20, 2015, 01:34:08 pm
Internet gloves are internet off, internet finally.
Come on... that twat-of-a-Don was WOUNDED due to the bullshit his government caused in YET ANOTHER war. Please respect his authorita!

Oh, and also plz respect Cartmans Dons MOM, k? And no "yo mamma so fat" jokes too!

On topic though - anyone have any particulary interestinginternetish oppinion on UN peacekeepers in Ukraine?

Also - fuck the text he is speaking, even the guy cant remember it, but you JUST LOOK AT THAT GESTURE! Don, Tovi - quick - help me with the origin!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hHqt9oE0Qd0#t=20
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 07:21:34 pm
Quote from: Vibe on March 20, 2015, 12:35:08 pm
:-(
Aw, shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeet. I bet you'll never be able to look at slavs crouching in their adidas tracksuits the same, wondering whether the next slav'll be DonNicko, come for revenge, like some sort of a twisted tracksuit avenger.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 20, 2015, 07:41:43 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on March 20, 2015, 12:30:20 pm
Vibe your attitude not far from Christo's. I would hit you between your eyes for my mother.

Quote from: Vibe on March 20, 2015, 12:35:08 pm
:-(

Look at what you have done.

You bastard.. You made Bibe sad, now go and apologize
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 08:05:09 pm
I'd forgotten the Russian "your mother" thing. It's their ultimate insult, leaving everyone from civilized countries slightly perplexed every time they use it, unsure whether it's a joke or if they actually think "fuck ure mothar" is an effective insult in 2015 -- outside of Russia. Like, they get super mad over shit like that, yet it's about the only insult they use, not knowing it only works on slavs.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 20, 2015, 08:31:23 pm
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=384342761747379
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 20, 2015, 09:48:17 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 20, 2015, 08:31:23 pm
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=384342761747379
12 billion rubles and 100% of Ukrainians would vote for Putin  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 20, 2015, 09:53:54 pm
The amount of trashtalking Russians had to endure through the 600 pages of this garbagepile is astronomical.

It is ridiculous to presume that all Russians are stupid brutes, as my nation have produced some of the finest works of art in the world, made significant technological achievements and influenced the history of mankind itself in a significant way. It's a fact. So as far as being stupid on national level goes, most of you have absolutely nothing to be bragging about. ( Germany have been very naughty, yet you don't call all Germans retards, do you? )

Some Russians who are participating in this "discussion" are not exceptionally good at writing English, and it's fine! Do you claim that every German, French, Polish or Lithuanian citizen speaks perfect English? And to be honest, some of the grammar-chocolate chip cookies here are writing pre-school level English themselves.

I am agaist wars, revolutions, religious extremism, violence, and all that other monkey-shit that is happening around the world on daily basis, but accumulating and feeding a poisonous hatred towards those who do not share my views will not help to make the World a better place. That is not how it works.

I enjoy reading Dave and Thomek for their structural and linguistically solid posts, I admire the few brave Russians who keep writing here despite the universal hatred and ridiculous insults in every sentence.
And one last thing - writing Russia as "russia" is a very low move. Everyone knows by now how much you hate Russia and Russians, no need to emphasize it in every post by this childish gesture, as it diminishes what little point you had to an equivalent of a dog's barking.

Now when this got out of my system, I can hopefully keep myself out of this thread for a long time to come.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 20, 2015, 10:14:34 pm
The most amazing fact about Russia is that it has ridiculously large areas open for settlement, yet also extremely low fertility rates : http://www.google.be/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=region:ECS&idim=country:RUS&ifdim=region&tstart=480121200000&tend=1332198000000&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false

Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 20, 2015, 09:53:54 pm
The amount of trashtalking Russians had to endure through the 600 pages of this garbagepile is astronomical.

It is ridiculous to presume that all Russians are stupid brutes, as my nation have produced some of the finest works of art in the world, made significant technological achievements and influenced the history of mankind itself in a significant way. It's a fact. So as far as being stupid on national level goes, most of you have absolutely nothing to be bragging about. ( Germany have been very naughty, yet you don't call all Germans retards, do you? )

Some Russians who are participating in this "discussion" are not exceptionally good at writing English, and it's fine! Do you claim that every German, French, Polish or Lithuanian citizen speaks perfect English? And to be honest, some of the grammar-chocolate chip cookies here are writing pre-school level English themselves.

I am agaist wars, revolutions, religious extremism, violence, and all that other monkey-shit that is happening around the world on daily basis, but accumulating and feeding a poisonous hatred towards those who do not share my views will not help to make the World a better place. That is not how it works.

I enjoy reading Dave and Thomek for their structural and linguistically solid posts, I admire the few brave Russians who keep writing here despite the universal hatred and ridiculous insults in every sentence.
And one last thing - writing Russia as "russia" is a very low move. Everyone knows by now how much you hate Russia and Russians, no need to emphasize it in every post by this childish gesture, as it diminishes what little point you had to an equivalent of a dog's barking.

Now when this got out of my system, I can hopefully keep myself out of this thread for a long time to come.

Dave, Thomek and I hope myself don't show hatred for Russians here. Alas, we aren't getting the rational discussion we would want to get, when the only argument the other guys can come up with is "no u". If you bring nothing constructive to the table, you are going to get insulted on the internet. There's no need for advanced English here, and being critical of Russia's geopolitics is not hating Russians, just as much as criticizing Israel for their geopolitics isn't anti-semitic. I think you failed to understand that most of us in fact do not hate Russians. Part of the problem is that there seems to be a very widespread myth in Russia that westerners hate Russians, breeding a victim complex which seems obvious to me here, especially in your post.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 20, 2015, 10:42:04 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 20, 2015, 09:53:54 pm
And one last thing - writing Russia as "russia" is a very low move.

lel
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 20, 2015, 10:56:52 pm
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 20, 2015, 09:53:54 pm
I admire the few brave Russians who keep writing here despite the universal hatred and ridiculous insults in every sentence.
top kek

Way to ruin your post by showing how biased you are. "Brave russians" indeed, true victims, never insulting themselves, just heroically providing facts. And shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 21, 2015, 12:47:24 am
Fcuk russia, Hope nato invades noaw!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on March 21, 2015, 12:55:05 am
so 580 pages of debate of people of which most dont have clue whats actually hapening there


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on March 21, 2015, 01:40:10 am
Quote from: Xant on March 20, 2015, 10:56:52 pm
Way to ruin your post by showing how biased you are. "Brave russians" indeed, true victims, never insulting themselves, just heroically providing facts. And shit.

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Do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks Xant. I wrote exactly how i wanted to.

Being brave or cowardly has nothing to do with being right or wrong. When two guys struggle to reply on dozens of insulting posts without relying on street-level comebacks themselves - that deserves some admiration in my eyes. But yes, I'm probably biased, since i was born in Boksitogorosk, Russia.

Quote from: Kafein on March 20, 2015, 10:14:34 pm
Part of the problem is that there seems to be a very widespread myth in Russia that westerners hate Russians, breeding a victim complex which seems obvious to me here, especially in your post.

Here, that is what I am talking about:

Quote from: Christo on March 20, 2015, 11:45:15 am
Typical russian, tries so hard at typing the correct sentence, still misses a word

Quote from: Beauchamp on March 18, 2015, 04:38:17 pm
haha this is a good one, fits this forum perfectly :D :D :D

Q: Whats the difference between a smart Russian and a pink gay unicorn?
A: Nothing, they're both fictional characters

I do feel a bit butthurt to be honest. Not only because this kind of tone became trendy in this thread, but also because it's a lie in both cases.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 21, 2015, 01:47:57 am
Nicko totally deserved that one after his "huehue we lern lenguag den conquer" nationalistic crap.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 21, 2015, 02:17:28 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 21, 2015, 01:53:06 am
But he hadn't said that yet lol, 2 pages later i believe

Pretty sure he did, but IDC enough to bother doing anything. I like sticking to witty liners and insulting "supreme Overload I can beat the world up" Xant. And I don't even have to do either cause both are handled long before I feel like jumping on the wagon.

TBH I don't blame the bashers. The amount of asinine comments I've read from our "beleaguered" Russian's is beyond belief. Of course, much of the way they act is similar to they way many American's around me act. One of them comes from an uneducated background, the other from a false background. Which is which,  though, I'll leave up to the reader.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 21, 2015, 03:18:28 am
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 21, 2015, 01:40:10 am
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Do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks Xant. I wrote exactly how i wanted to.

Being brave or cowardly has nothing to do with being right or wrong. When two guys struggle to reply on dozens of insulting posts without relying on street-level comebacks themselves - that deserves some admiration in my eyes. But yes, I'm probably biased, since i was born in Boksitogorosk, Russia.
The reason they get insulted is because they a) don't provide any arguments and b) insult themselves. Why should people not insult someone like Vovka? All he does is write shit in crappy English. And most of all, why should someone not insult DonNicko/Tovi? Tovi isn't Russian, but DonNicko writes crap that is almost as bad as Tovi's. They have the most retarded conspiracy theories in existence and - this is the important part - people WERE discussing the subject matter with them ages ago... but they kept making wild claims, then they got proven wrong, then they just ignored that and made some wild claims later, got proven wrong, ignored, etc, etc. Rinse and repeat like 10 times. They've earned nothing but insults.

Nobody really thinks being Russian automagically makes you retarded (although I do think there's a bigger chance that if Russian=retard because of, one assumes, the shortcomings of the education system), and no one is grouping you (or f.ex Segd) with "russians." It's the same as when radical Islam graces us with another terror attack people go "fucking muslims"... but not even the most hardcore of muslim haters saying it really thinks that every single one of the 1.6 billion muslims are terr'ists.
Quote from: Lt_Anders on March 21, 2015, 02:17:28 am
. I like sticking to witty liners and insulting "supreme Overload I can beat the world up" Xant. And I don't even have to do either cause both are handled long before I feel like jumping on the wagon.
Oh, please. Point me to one witty one liner that has ever been produced from your keyboard. All I see is you typing some stupid shit and getting destroyed by people who know something about the subject every time you attempt to contribute in your usual neckbeard way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 21, 2015, 08:24:12 am
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 20, 2015, 09:53:54 pm
<...bullshit...>
And one last thing - writing Russia as "russia" is a very low move. Everyone knows by now how much you hate Russia and Russians, no need to emphasize it in every post by this childish gesture, as it diminishes what little point you had to an equivalent of a dog's barking.
<...bukkake...>

I'm sorry for making all those intentional mistakes with the whole "russia" thing. My mom tought me, that you capitalize names of things you respect. Even though at school later I learned that its a grammer naztee thing and the rules are a bit more complicated - I still don't give a fuck and I stopped capitalizing russia, even at work in official emails (got few comments from ruskies too, haha :) ). I actually had to modify my browser to NOT highlight this "bad bad low low" word for me and auto-fix if I accidentally capitalize it... So you see - I went to SOME lengths to make this childish behavior consistent.

So please respect that and don't call it childish, because otherwise I will complain to your and Don's fat mom.

Thank you for appreciating!

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 21, 2015, 10:18:44 am
Hmm, assuming Armpit is a smart RUSSIAN (did I do this right?), I think to know that he is not living in RUSSIA (I really hope I do this right!).
Coincidence? Is there a deeper reason?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 21, 2015, 10:47:08 am
Quote from: Armpit_Sweat on March 20, 2015, 09:53:54 pm
The amount of trashtalking Russians had to endure through the 600 pages of this garbagepile is astronomical.

It is ridiculous to presume that all Russians are stupid brutes, as my nation have produced some of the finest works of art in the world, made significant technological achievements and influenced the history of mankind itself in a significant way. It's a fact. So as far as being stupid on national level goes, most of you have absolutely nothing to be bragging about. ( Germany have been very naughty, yet you don't call all Germans retards, do you? )

Some Russians who are participating in this "discussion" are not exceptionally good at writing English, and it's fine! Do you claim that every German, French, Polish or Lithuanian citizen speaks perfect English? And to be honest, some of the grammar-chocolate chip cookies here are writing pre-school level English themselves.

I am agaist wars, revolutions, religious extremism, violence, and all that other monkey-shit that is happening around the world on daily basis, but accumulating and feeding a poisonous hatred towards those who do not share my views will not help to make the World a better place. That is not how it works.

I enjoy reading Dave and Thomek for their structural and linguistically solid posts, I admire the few brave Russians who keep writing here despite the universal hatred and ridiculous insults in every sentence.
And one last thing - writing Russia as "russia" is a very low move. Everyone knows by now how much you hate Russia and Russians, no need to emphasize it in every post by this childish gesture, as it diminishes what little point you had to an equivalent of a dog's barking.

Now when this got out of my system, I can hopefully keep myself out of this thread for a long time to come.

the problem is some "nations/groups" get more easily offended if you target their "nationality/group". if you say "stupid russian" it pisses russians off, because they know that they are just more stupid and less culturally developed than other nations. the same example goes if you target gipsies or call out black people. if you say "you stupid dane", you probably won't really insult anyone in denmark to much. like i heard some russians get even offended if u write russia instead of Russia, would you fucking believe it? :D :D :D

its true though that russians had no problem to find really elite and awesome people among themselves, i think its because if some country is total shit it either beats you down (which happens to a huge majority of russians) into a primitive (aka nicko) or you completely opposite give out your very best in a life (aka nobody on this forum).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 21, 2015, 10:59:01 am
Quote from: Molly on March 21, 2015, 10:18:44 am
Hmm, assuming Armpit is a smart RUSSIAN (did I do this right?), I think to know that he is not living in RUSSIA (I really hope I do this right!)

No no no! If you don't want to be seen as childish hater you should type it this way: RUSSIA. Because, as we all know, not capitalizing name of some country is the lowest of the low moves you can do on the internet. ALmost as bad as saying mum jokes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 21, 2015, 12:17:19 pm
Thanks for chipping in Armpit.

I have to agree with Xant, I don't know of anyone in the west that hates russians. (in norwegian, capitalization of nationality is not required, I never liked that english requires it.. ) All my russian friends who came have managed well, have nice jobs and are functional in society here. They have experienced very little racism, if at all.

If RF media is talking about russophobia in the west, it's outright lies. You can even see it in this thread.. westerners are not very passionate about bashing russians at all.

In Easterne Europe + Finland however, it's different, and it has to do with relatively recent history, and generally more contact with russians.. Probably why Xant, Kuujis and even the otherwise likable Cristo are a bit raw.

Anyway.. the only thing worthy in a thread like this would/could have been some kind of communication or exchange. We are all here because we don't believe our media 100%, we want confirmation by relation.

Personally im curious why otherwise intelligent people would support RF actions in Ukraine. I'm curious how RF propaganda works, and why this pointless war felt so right for many russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 21, 2015, 12:34:44 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 21, 2015, 12:17:19 pm
In Easterne Europe + Finland however, it's different, and it has to do with relatively recent history, and generally more contact with russians.. Probably why Xant, Kuujis and even the otherwise likable Cristo are a bit raw.
I'm not "raw", I have nothing against "a Russian" just like I have nothing against black people. It's just a fact that many black people are either taking their cultural cues either from Africa or the U.S gangsta ghetto culture; it's not about race, not really, it's because they self-identify with the wrong things. A black person who doesn't buy into those self-degrading cultures isn't any worse than a white person. The exact same thing goes for Russians and the lowlife Russian culture that so many of them seem to subscribe to. There's a reason everyone hates Russians in CS:GO, Dota 2, etc.. all games with matchmaking.

And then there's DonNicko and Vovka, who are great examples of retarded Russians, which is why they get flamed.

Quote
Personally im curious why otherwise intelligent people would support RF actions in Ukraine. I'm curious how RF propaganda works, and why this pointless war felt so right for many russians.
It seems like they have a mental block or something. When you ask them about it, they start going on about NATO and how the US really started the war or benefits or whatever. And/or they refuse to face the facts about Russian involvement in Ukraine, even though it's clear for all to see. The most retarded even think that there's NATO soldiers there fighting and no Russians (Tovi).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 21, 2015, 03:28:31 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 21, 2015, 12:46:39 pm
For example, saying 'you deserve that after you typed XYZ' when they hadn't said XYZ yet

Do you even read the thread or just instantly judge without doing so?

Quote from: DonNicko on March 19, 2015, 08:35:48 pm
In 19 century we learnt French in schools and entered Paris.
In 20 century we learnt German in schools and entered Berlin.
In 21 century we are learning English.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 21, 2015, 08:20:16 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 21, 2015, 12:34:44 pm
...
It seems like they have a mental block or something. When you ask them about it, they start going on about NATO and how the US really started the war or benefits or whatever. And/or they refuse to face the facts about Russian involvement in Ukraine, even though it's clear for all to see. ...

well, i still remember iraq ´03. at this time you needed not to bother to debate with americans.
the usual lines were "saddam hoards weapons of mass destruction, he is a threat for your country, an ally of al-qaeda and you are stupid if you don´t believe this."
so denying reality is not a russian specific thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 21, 2015, 10:17:45 pm
It was Hans Blix vs Pentagon, and smart people never bought the WMD excuse. Besides, people in US have all kinds of opinions. Just their media is often a bunch of sheep, just like in the rest of the world. It has to do with how governements exploit lazy journalists with ambition..

It was not a massive amount of pictorial evidence and logical conclusions like now however. Everyone understands a bunch of coal miners cannot defeat the UKR army, and that "green men" are being used again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 22, 2015, 09:43:47 pm
Serbs confirmed that Novorossiya is run and organized by Moscow :mrgreen:

Former TV worker and wannabe specops Radomir Pocuca (dude is a retard), went last year to Ukraine to fight for Novorossian side, among others who did the same. Serbian nationalist newspapers were constantly spamming headlines about Pocuca, his bravery, his fight for orthodox values, alongside Russian brothers blah blah blah. He denied being hound of war, said that he is fighting as a patriot for free yadda yadda...

But recently he has been arrested by another Serbian fighter, who is leader of one group of soldiers fighting for Novorossian side. He is deemed as traitor, because he wanted to execute some military leaders of Novorossian groups. While being interrogated he mentioned couple of times few contacts in Moscow where he went for instructions (not just him). Serbian dude who is keeping him and another dude arrested is trying to help them because (Novo)russians want to trial him and get him and his accomplice in front of firing squad. That is what happens when a stupid dude who jerks off to military goes to actual warzone and fucks up. Almost Darwin award worthy.

There is a youtube clip but it is Serbian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 23, 2015, 05:52:33 am
Quote from: Mala on March 21, 2015, 08:20:16 pm
well, i still remember iraq ´03. at this time you needed not to bother to debate with americans.
the usual lines were "saddam hoards weapons of mass destruction, he is a threat for your country, an ally of al-qaeda and you are stupid if you don´t believe this."
so denying reality is not a russian specific thing.

You do seem to forget that before this Iraq wanted to utterly wipe out a small nation. And absolutely everyone just held their thumbs up their asses. An Arab Leagues member was about to be destroyed and all their "allies" and neibhours did was shrug. The world does need some degree of policing. Imagine when one day the US completely removes himself from foreign issues. Imagine how shitty that would be. But im quessing that the issues of people in unstable countries who are always in the verge of being victims of a massgenocide seem way to distant to you. UN-s forces have always sucked ass, cause they always refuse to send a decent number of people or take forever to decide. As I remember, UN peacekeepers were present during the Rwandan genocide and all they could do was watch. Would not have happened if US was there.

You do also seem to forget that beond fucking up in its policing, the US has also done a fair amount of good, that wasnt so much for personal gain. Out of all the top dogs in the worlds arena, US is technically the least selfish prick(still a selfish prick). Russia does absolutely nothing, unless its personal gain 100%. Do you really want them to police? And China wont police anything, they are totally self-centered aswell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 23, 2015, 07:55:08 am
Tovi, you been at this event? Seems like you could have been a key speaker

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/europes-far-right-comes-to-russia-in-search-of-shared-values#.glVELPe3x

Also - stouch defenders of what is russian right (more like EXTREME right) - have you been there too? Have you flushed out and lynched a lot of wanabee naztees from the rotten west?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 23, 2015, 08:19:14 am
Also Russia threatened Denmark with nukes. That if he gets in on the NATO rocketshieldthing, they will aim their warheads at them. Russia - misunderstood country that always wanted peace. Seriuslly, they like directly insult and threaten other countries leaders face to face and than they claim their bad relationships are the fault of propaganda and USA. Where the hell is the logic here?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 23, 2015, 08:25:47 am
Quote from: Tibe on March 23, 2015, 08:19:14 am
Also Russia threatened Denmark with nukes. That if he gets in on the NATO rocketshieldthing, they will aim their warheads at them. Russia - misunderstood country that always wanted peace. Seriuslly, they like directly insult and threaten other countries leaders face to face and than they claim their bad relationships are the fault of propaganda and USA. Where the hell is the logic here?
In Twitter  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Latvian on March 23, 2015, 01:19:27 pm
we got nice military excersise with americans now, tanks and shit. Be afraid russia.  8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 23, 2015, 01:27:22 pm
Quote from: Latvian on March 23, 2015, 01:19:27 pm
we got nice military excersise with americans now, tanks and shit. Be afraid russia.  8-)
you will not get our potato!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 23, 2015, 02:31:20 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 23, 2015, 08:25:47 am
In Twitter  :lol:

You do realise that atleast half of your dumb countries population and politicians take much less similar things from USA and EU much more seriuslly?

"xaxaxa, they are scared of twitter claim and take it seriuslly, what idiots!!!!?!!" Your constant claim that this kind of stuff is nothing, would be correct, if rest of your country threated similar cases from other countries like jokes aswell. Unfortunately if some USA politician said something like that in Twitter at Russia, your idiot country would definately overreact and instant nuke the planet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 23, 2015, 03:57:19 pm
Today I saw the first slav squatting dude ever in Finland, drinking vodka. #the invasion has begun
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 23, 2015, 04:02:54 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 23, 2015, 03:57:19 pm
Today I saw the first slav squatting dude ever in Finland, drinking vodka. #the invasion has begun

Shit, start barricading your home, and arm yourself immediately.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 23, 2015, 04:15:50 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 23, 2015, 03:57:19 pm
Today I saw the first slav squatting dude ever in Finland, drinking vodka. #the invasion has begun

Check for forgery on Adidas tracksuit, if not forged then it was disguised US soldier, slavs too poor to afford original Adidas. Confirmed from source fox news
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 23, 2015, 04:32:07 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 23, 2015, 02:31:20 pm
You do realise that atleast half of your dumb countries population and politicians take much less similar things from USA and EU much more seriuslly?

"xaxaxa, they are scared of twitter claim and take it seriuslly, what idiots!!!!?!!" Your constant claim that this kind of stuff is nothing, would be correct, if rest of your country threated similar cases from other countries like jokes aswell. Unfortunately if some USA politician said something like that in Twitter at Russia, your idiot country would definately overreact and instant nuke the planet.
take a deep breath, you sound like a barbarian, even for people from the dense forests of northern Petersburg like me.

we want to nuke the world for 70 years already, but still can not find the right button. But do not worry, the best minds of our kind are working on it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 23, 2015, 04:48:22 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 23, 2015, 02:31:20 pm
You do realise that atleast half of your dumb countries population and politicians take much less similar things from USA and EU much more seriuslly?

"xaxaxa, they are scared of twitter claim and take it seriuslly, what idiots!!!!?!!" Your constant claim that this kind of stuff is nothing, would be correct, if rest of your country threated similar cases from other countries like jokes aswell. Unfortunately if some USA politician said something like that in Twitter at Russia, your idiot country would definately overreact and instant nuke the planet.

well, this one looks more like an exaggeration of western press. i guess there was a formal information that denmark will be a valid target again (it was one as nato member anyway) and thats it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 23, 2015, 05:02:33 pm
Quote from: Mala on March 23, 2015, 04:48:22 pm
well, this one looks more like an exaggeration of western press. i guess there was a formal information that denmark will be a valid target again (it was one as nato member anyway) and thats it.
In August last year, Denmark said that  they wants to equip one of their ship with American radar, and join the NATO rocketshieldthing. Russian politician said: «Я не думаю, что датчане в полной мере понимают последствия, если страна присоединится к возглавляемой США системе противоракетной обороны. Если это произойдет, датские военные корабли станут мишенями для российских ядерных ракет»

Google translate ^"I do not think that the Danes are fully aware of the consequences if the country will join the US-led missile defense system. If this happens, the Danish warships will become targets for Russian nuclear missiles "

now lets make from it news for Tibelike (why i always write tovi instead tibe  :cry: )  ppls  "I do not think that the Danes are fully aware of the consequences if the country Denmark will join the US-led missile defense system. If this happens, the Danish warships will become targets for Russian nuclearked missiles "
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 23, 2015, 05:09:38 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 23, 2015, 03:57:19 pm
Today I saw the first slav squatting dude ever in Finland, drinking vodka. #the invasion has begun

Felt this is appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EzNhaLUT520#t=60
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 08:35:05 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 24, 2015, 08:59:27 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 23, 2015, 05:02:33 pm
now lets make from it news for Tibelike (why i always write tovi instead tibe  :cry: )  ppls  "I do not think that the Danes are fully aware of the consequences if the country Denmark will join the US-led missile defense system. If this happens, the Danish warships will become targets for Russian nuclearked missiles "

Its amusing how you pretend not to give a shit, yet you go through fuckton of effort and keep reading it. Man even I occasinally skip like 20 pages of this thread, not even reading them, but you are like always here. You just switched the message of "we will aim nukes at you" with "we will shoot nukes". Yea, that is much better. If someone is aming a gun at your face, he is clearly friend, aslong as he doesnt shoot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 24, 2015, 09:09:11 am
US military convoy in Romania :

[youtube]https://youtu.be/UvHCcn3N4jI[/youtube]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCcn3N4jI

Non lethal ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 24, 2015, 09:14:05 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 24, 2015, 09:09:11 am
US military convoy in Romania :

[youtube]https://youtu.be/UvHCcn3N4jI[/youtube]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCcn3N4jI

Non lethal ?
Is this humanitarian help for Donbass?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 09:38:18 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 24, 2015, 09:09:11 am
US military convoy in Romania :
[youtube]https://youtu.be/UvHCcn3N4jI[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCcn3N4jI
Non lethal ?
same as saxons "Non lethal, for the protection of personnel,"
but even without arms, it's still lethal for drunk drivers and the people around them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 24, 2015, 10:11:42 am
And exactly how is something in Romania related to what may or may not be used/provided in Ukraine?
Those are volunteers from neighbouring countries obviously and in no way affiliated to any official army, duh.

-.-
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 24, 2015, 10:18:03 am
Even if we presume that is US stuff, and going to Ukraine... why would it even matter if US gave all the aid ever to the official government of Ukraine...? Oh wait, that's right, Tovi is an utter retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 24, 2015, 10:22:45 am
.......... Just looked at the videos, that isn't even US equipment. There's only one Humvee that "could" be US equipment. US also doesn't slap red crosses on its vehicles anymore. And 99% of that was never even in use by the US. Why did I think that even 5% of what Tovi says could be right. Go fuck yourself Tovi, that's the only thing you're good for.

And..... yes, all of that is non-lethal. Jesus fucking Christ, Tovi's retardation is just... too much for words.

So we have

1) Some military vehicles (NOT US mil) on a train.
2) In Romania.
3) Also non-lethal.

Tovi posts that it's US military convoy in Romania presumably on its way to Ukraine... and "non-lethal?" rhetorically. Fucking moron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 11:20:52 am
Quote from: Xant on March 24, 2015, 10:22:45 am
(click to show/hide)

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/11/politics/ukraine-us-sends-money-humvees-non-lethal-aid/

"The president has also approved sending 20 armored Humvees and up to 200 unarmored Humvees under a separate authority."


I see you are as a specialist in the US military, as well as in Russian.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Strykers

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/13/world/army-convoy-through-europe/index.html

same convoy 1 day before in Hunedoara


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 24, 2015, 01:17:39 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 11:20:52 am
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/11/politics/ukraine-us-sends-money-humvees-non-lethal-aid/

"The president has also approved sending 20 armored Humvees and up to 200 unarmored Humvees under a separate authority."


I see you are as a specialist in the US military, as well as in Russian.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Strykers

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/13/world/army-convoy-through-europe/index.html

same convoy 1 day before in Hunedoara
Quote
(CNN)Eastern Europe, here comes the cavalry.

"The U.S. Army says it will soon be sending armored Stryker vehicles on a 1,100-mile convoy through six European countries..."

"...Estonia, Lithuania and Poland, the report said. They'll move through Latvia and the Czech Republic as they make their way to Vilseck, Germany, about a 40 miles drive from the Czech border..."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 24, 2015, 01:56:23 pm
So, a couple of things. First of all, that CNN thing about Strykers going through Europe is irrelevant. They're never going in Romania. Second of all, if you could read

Quote
The move is unusual because long-distance movement of heavy military vehicles such as the 18-ton Strykers is usually done by rail.

I.e., they're going to be driven. The APCs in that train video have had their weaponry removed. Two completely unrelated news.

But yes, I looked too quickly; I was wrong about "99% that was never in use." Mostly because of the Vietnam-era equipment. Those HMWs are decades old.  They are not combat vehicles at all. There's like 3 even vaguely modern ones there. Some of those trucks look even older than Vietnam-era or have never been in use by the US. How do you even know what the destination of the vehicles on that train is, when you thought it had to do with a Stryker convoy by US army?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 02:09:23 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 24, 2015, 01:56:23 pm
So, a couple of things. First of all, that CNN thing about Strykers going through Europe is irrelevant. They're never going in Romania. Second of all, if you could read
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nozcf_-YNhI[/youtube]
US Army Convoy 14.03.2015
Location Medgidia , Constanta, Romania
Time: 8.12 min AM


I'm not saying that this convoy went to Ukraine, enough to argue with me)
Constanta is amajor NATO transit base on the Black Sea coast. on March 14 they were here and belong to 2nd Cavalry Regiment (2/2 Cav on board of each stryker) 22-23 march they was in Estonia (should at least be) On "Dragoon Ride"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 24, 2015, 04:41:46 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 24, 2015, 09:09:11 am
US military convoy in Romania :

[youtube]https://youtu.be/UvHCcn3N4jI[/youtube]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCcn3N4jI

Non lethal ?

The crates did actually say USA on it. But yea. There were no weapons nor an actual place to even put weapons on all of those vehicles. Even the APCs didnt have any. So yes Tovi. Nonlethal. Im glad we got that question awnsered.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 24, 2015, 05:12:02 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 02:09:23 pm
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nozcf_-YNhI[/youtube]
US Army Convoy 14.03.2015
Location Medgidia , Constanta, Romania
Time: 8.12 min AM


I'm not saying that this convoy went to Ukraine, enough to argue with me)
Constanta is amajor NATO transit base on the Black Sea coast. on March 14 they were here and belong to 2nd Cavalry Regiment (2/2 Cav on board of each stryker) 22-23 march they was in Estonia (should at least be) On "Dragoon Ride"
"The move is unusual because long-distance movement of heavy military vehicles such as the 18-ton Strykers is usually done by rail."

Do you not understand what this means? In that video the Strykers are on a railroad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 05:45:12 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 24, 2015, 05:12:02 pm
"The move is unusual because long-distance movement of heavy military vehicles such as the 18-ton Strykers is usually done by rail."

Do you not understand what this means? In that video the Strykers are on a railroad.
and?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 24, 2015, 05:51:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 05:45:12 pm
and?
and end
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 06:09:28 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 24, 2015, 04:41:46 pm
The crates did actually say USA on it. But yea. There were no weapons nor an actual place to even put weapons on all of those vehicles. Even the APCs didnt have any. So yes Tovi. Nonlethal. Im glad we got that question awnsered.
I can sit down on a log but will not  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 24, 2015, 08:15:21 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 06:09:28 pm
I can sit down on a log but will not  :P
A joker trying to take a moral high ground... now I have seen everything. :shock:

well... ok, not yet, don't remember Tovi doing this. I'll wait some.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 09:29:24 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 24, 2015, 08:15:21 pm
A joker trying to take a moral high ground... now I have seen everything. :shock:
well... ok, not yet, don't remember Tovi doing this. I'll wait some.

Quote from: Tovi on March 24, 2015, 09:09:11 am
US military convoy in Romania :
[youtube]https://youtu.be/UvHCcn3N4jI[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCcn3N4jI
Non lethal ?
"not a single word about Ukraine"
Quote from: Xant on March 24, 2015, 10:18:03 am
Even if we presume that is US stuff, and going to Ukraine... why would it even matter if US gave all the aid ever to the official government of Ukraine...? Oh wait, that's right, Tovi is an utter retard.
Quote from: Xant on March 24, 2015, 10:22:45 am
.......... Just looked at the videos, that isn't even US equipment. There's only one Humvee that "could" be US equipment. US also doesn't slap red crosses on its vehicles anymore. And 99% of that was never even in use by the US. Why did I think that even 5% of what Tovi says could be right. Go fuck yourself Tovi, that's the only thing you're good for.
And..... yes, all of that is non-lethal. Jesus fucking Christ, Tovi's retardation is just... too much for words.
So we have
1) Some military vehicles (NOT US mil) on a train.
2) In Romania.
3) Also non-lethal.
Tovi posts that it's US military convoy in Romania presumably on its way to Ukraine... and "non-lethal?" rhetorically. Fucking moron.
Quote from: Kuujis on March 24, 2015, 08:15:21 pm
A joker trying to take a moral high ground... now I have seen everything. :shock:

well... ok, not yet, don't remember Tovi doing this. I'll wait some.

you guys need to get married, because you'll have a great family with a 1 brain for two, and will be able to adopt Tibe*   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 24, 2015, 10:25:06 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 09:29:24 pm
"not a single word about Ukraine"
you guys need to get married, because you'll have a great family with a 1 brain for two, and will be able to adopt Tibe*   :P

You be wise, you managed to corner a confused guy on the interwebs, go you!

""not a single word about Ukraine"" - a post with a "US" military convoy in "THE UKRAINE" thread asking if this is "non lethal" does indeed imply, that this supposedly is US lethal aid to Ukraine :) Even your retarded RT, other bs channels OR the ruling party don't imply this, but Tovi is faster and more retarded, so no problem here :)

As for marriages... been there, done that, not as much as Tovi, but enough is enough, I know my birth control stuff, I don't do basketball teams... :rolleyes: BUT - since we are on the topic - if ruskies indeed intend to invade UK - you should consider multiplying faster... or importing more chinese to cover your population decline.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 10:43:59 pm
Mb they post somethink like dat?
No, Tovi u are wrong, here proof link!:
Over a hundred armored vehicles belonging to NATO forces arrived Saturday in Constanta. Images shot with a drone to Claboo Media looks train carrying vehicles to the US military base at Kogalniceanu. Pictures from the show Media Claboo drone train entered the country through customs Curtici and whose final destination was the US military base in the town Balcescu (from MK) in Constanta.
It inter alia 35 Stryker armored vehicles and more HUMVEE type. The train consists of 23 wagons, which are approximately 468 tons of military equipment. This equipment will be used in the joint Romanian-American military maneuvers. On the other hand, in Constanta landed six NATO ships from Monday, will participate in exercises in the Black Sea. The Romanian Ministry of Defense in the next period, Romania will do more transport military equipment belonging to US Army stationed in Europe. US soldiers and equipment in these trades will participate in joint exercises with the Romanian Army.

and not hurrdurr u are piece of fucking retarded shit *pissing in their pants with joy and closes the tab with the forum"
I'm really tired open this topic and instead of views "civilized Europeans" read this entire shit two or three retards  who have nothing more than a "хуесосить" flaming the single one
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 12:11:25 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 10:43:59 pm
<...bukkake...>
and not hurrdurr u are piece of fucking retarded shit *pissing in their pants with joy and closes the tab with the forum"
I'm really tired open this topic and instead of views "civilized Europeans" read this entire shit two or three retards  who have nothing more than a "хуесосить" flaming the single one

Poor you... Think of it this way: thanks to you and your shit-nation - there are people dying in a pointless war created by russia, while you are "really tired". You want civilized talk? Start acting civilized. Now you represent shit-nation and tasteless jokes, so what do you expect? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 12:23:01 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 12:11:25 am
Poor you... Think of it this way: thanks to you and your shit-nation - there are people dying in a pointless war created by russia, while you are "really tired". You want civilized talk? Start acting civilized. Now you represent shit-nation and tasteless jokes, so what do you expect? :)
my shit-nation dont cares about subhuman and those who survive will be able to serve my Führer and the new world order.
But you should know when the time comes I will not intercede for you and your family, after such harsh words
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 12:51:04 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 12:23:01 am
my shit-nation dont cares about subhuman and those who survive will be able to serve my Führer and the new world order.
But you should know when the time comes I will not intercede for you and your family, after such harsh words
...and jokes which are "funny" only in russia seems to be the last place where you can at least TRY to express yourself... go you... :|
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2015, 01:13:47 am
Oh come on people start Putin' aside your differences.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 25, 2015, 05:26:48 am
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Russians tanks in Hungary!!!!!!! Non-lethal?????
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 25, 2015, 05:43:28 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 24, 2015, 09:29:24 pm
you guys need to get married, because you'll have a great family with a 1 brain for two, and will be able to adopt Tibe*   :P

I dont want no peasant lithuanian and a drunk fin as parents...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2015, 05:49:54 am
Quote from: Xant on March 25, 2015, 05:26:48 am
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Russians tanks in Hungary!!!!!!! Non-lethal?????

Tanks don't kill people.

People kill people, with tanks.

There are many photographs about people climbing on those soviet tanks, originally they were not even supposed to hurt the protesters, it should've been only a show of force after the first armed uprising was stopped on the 24th with the soviet capture of Magyar Radio, and peaceful protesting started on the 25th of October.

The soviet tankers who lived in Hungary actually befriended the protesters and let them ride their tanks, and put the hungarian flag on them.

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Then all hell broke loose when AVH snipers (secret police) started firing on the peaceful protest, some of the tanks started shooting at the unarmed protesters, while there were also some tanks that fired back at the roof of the Parliament building.

This incident escalated the 56' events to country-level, and fights started once again.

Sad, very sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 06:07:29 am
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"The soviet tankers let  people climbing on those soviet tanks cos there so dark and cold and tanks is warm"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2015, 06:12:05 am
'so dark and cold' Is a meme about Latvia, not Hungary, silly Vovka.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 25, 2015, 06:29:51 am
One day, hear knock on door.
Man ask “Who is?”
“Is potato man, I come around to give free potato”
Man is very excite and opens door.
Is not potato man, is secret police.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 07:35:16 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 24, 2015, 10:25:06 pm
if ruskies indeed intend to invade UK - you should consider multiplying faster... or importing more chinese to cover your population decline.
Really? Russia wants to invade UK? Can you give links please. As I know Russian population is increasing for the last 5 years, am I wrong?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 07:51:35 am
Quote from: Christo on March 25, 2015, 06:12:05 am
'so dark and cold' Is a meme about Latvia, not Hungary, silly Vovka.
I'm too lazy to search for photos with the tanks in Latvia XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 08:17:02 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 07:35:16 am
Really? Russia wants to invade UK? Can you give links please. As I know Russian population is increasing for the last 5 years, am I wrong?

You new here, aint you? I think there was a "wannabe joke" about this few pages ago by DonNicko. Something along the lines "in 19th century russia learned french and they "invaded" Paris; in 20th century russia learned german and invaded Berlin; in 21st century russia is learning engrish, thus - London is to be afraid :D"

For my part - I cant remember any war, where russians actually invaded Paris, but this must be a reference to Napoleons march to Moscow, after which Moscow fell, even if eventually Napoleon lost the war :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 08:24:06 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 08:17:02 am
You new here, aint you? I think there was a "wannabe joke" about this few pages ago by DonNicko. Something along the lines "in 19th century russia learned french and they "invaded" Paris; in 20th century russia learned german and invaded Berlin; in 21st century russia is learning engrish, thus - London is to be afraid :D"

For my part - I cant remember any war, where russians actually invaded Paris, but this must be a reference to Napoleons march to Moscow, after which Moscow fell, even if eventually Napoleon lost the war :)
Ah, phew, I thought Russia wants UK, that was a joke, Thanks God. I thought that France invaded Russia in 19 century and Germany invaded Russia in 20 century, Why DonNicko said that Russia invaded France and Germany?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 08:28:16 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 08:17:02 am
You new here, aint you? I think there was a "wannabe joke" about this few pages ago by DonNicko. Something along the lines "in 19th century russia learned french and they "invaded" Paris; in 20th century russia learned german and invaded Berlin; in 21st century russia is learning engrish, thus - London is to be afraid :D"
For my part - I cant remember any war, where russians actually invaded Paris, but this must be a reference to Napoleons march to Moscow, after which Moscow fell, even if eventually Napoleon lost the war :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Paris_%281814%29
 but maybe in your history Battle for Paris won the Balts or Ukrainians ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 25, 2015, 08:56:28 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 08:28:16 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Paris_%281814%29
 but maybe in your history Battle for Paris won the Balts or Ukrainians ^^

Oh shit, de Tolly, the guy who was the commander in that battle is buried in Estonia. Thats really bad. Mark my words Vovka, im pretty confident some jackass will vandalize his burialsite for provocation. And than your government is gonna go all like: "Look what those facists are doing! We must send troops or give massive sanctions, they are destroying and disrespecting our history!" If it doesnt happen, well keep thinking of me as some anti-russian idiot who doesnt know what his talking about. Id still call that a win for everyone. If it does....well...I dont know...

If it was up to me, id give you everything related to russia on my soil back to Russia. Not because I dislike them, but because whenever something happens to russian monuments and such. Even the slightest things. Automatically your government is on our throats. I remember when we only moved one tiny state from one place to the next, your government instantly called us hit ler and the russians started a riot. Tell me honestly Vovka what would you make of all this? "Xaxaxa, stupid baltic boy, doesnt know anything about Russia and russians, says random and untrue shit?"  :lol: Dont get me wrong, I really like russians, i dislike Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 09:05:35 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 08:28:16 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Paris_%281814%29
 but maybe in your history Battle for Paris won the Balts or Ukrainians ^^
Actually - this is the first time I heard about it. Yet - you have to be fair - it was coalition that won the battle, not ruskies :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 09:07:29 am
Quote from: Tibe on March 25, 2015, 08:56:28 am
Oh shit, de Tolly, the guy who was the commander in that battle is buried in Estonia.
I think this is something to do with the fact that three generations of his family have lived in Estonia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 25, 2015, 09:23:17 am
Why can't we just all be friends?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 09:38:40 am
Quote from: Xant on March 25, 2015, 09:23:17 am
Why can't we just all be friends?
i have a rule. Never be friends with your bitches  :P

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 09:47:35 am
Quote from: Xant on March 25, 2015, 09:23:17 am
Why can't we just all be friends?
I think we can, but I saw so many insults here. Disrespecting opinions of each other. We should be more polite. My opinion about current situation in Ukraine is that separatists constantly break a ceasefire, ukranian army breaks a ceasefire too. They both sucks. Russia support separatists with weapons, USA supports Ukraine with weapons. They both sucks. Really what this two countries wants? I hope there won't be any world war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 10:00:57 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 09:47:35 am
I think we can, but I saw so many insults here. Disrespecting opinions of each other. We should be more polite. My opinion about current situation in Ukraine is that separatists constantly break a ceasefire, ukranian army breaks a ceasefire too. They both sucks. Russia support separatists with weapons, USA supports Ukraine with weapons. They both sucks. Really what this two countries wants? I hope there won't be any world war.
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it's like "you threw 7, do 20 steps back XD"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KingBread on March 25, 2015, 10:01:46 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 09:47:35 am
I think we can, but I saw so many insults here. Disrespecting opinions of each other. We should be more polite. My opinion about current situation in Ukraine is that separatists constantly break a ceasefire, ukranian army breaks a ceasefire too. They both sucks. Russia support separatists with weapons, USA supports Ukraine with weapons. They both sucks. Really what this two countries wants? I hope there won't be any world war.
They would both suck if all this events would took place in no mans land on mars. But it is happening in Ukraine so USA supports defending country and Russia is violently trying to take part of independent country. This is why Russia suck much more cos they start it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 10:11:11 am
Quote from: KingBread on March 25, 2015, 10:01:46 am
They would both suck if all this events would took place in no mans land on mars. But it is happening in Ukraine so USA supports defending country and Russia is violently trying to take part of independent country. This is why Russia suck much more cos they start it.
the free people of donbass start it not russia!. russia only support their aspirations for freedom and independence! or for you it's just empty words ?!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 10:29:47 am
Quote from: KingBread on March 25, 2015, 10:01:46 am
They would both suck if all this events would took place in no mans land on mars. But it is happening in Ukraine so USA supports defending country and Russia is violently trying to take part of independent country. This is why Russia suck much more cos they start it.
As I remember USA supported revolution in Ukraine (don't think that this revolution gave Ukraine any advantage). So revolution happened, Russia instantly planned how to annex Crimea and did it, as I know people in Crimea wanted to join Russia. Then Donbass raised against Kiev with support of Russia. Kiev was afraid that Donbass will join Russia as Crimea and started a war. Many of civilians are dead. Well here maybe Russia is guilty. USA is guilty of revolution and starting ATO. So I don't see that USA or Russia more guilty, they both sucks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 10:42:34 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 10:11:11 am
the free people of donbass start it not russia!. russia only support their aspirations for freedom and independence! or for you it's just empty words ?!
After that guy Strelkov said "we had to force Crimea parliament to vote" and then "if not for our diversion groups - there would be no hint of armed uprising in eastern Ukraine" - I say eat shit and die (thats impolite obviously, srykthxbai) that you are talking lies, which were planted in your pot-of-a-head by putlers propaganda.

P.S. Or was this one of your wanabee jokes? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 25, 2015, 10:44:20 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 09:47:35 am
USA supports Ukraine with weapons.

Where are these weapons? I can show you a thousand of pictures of separatists using exclusively Russian weaponry which none of other countries has. Show me Ukrainians using American weaponry in ATO. Even separatists use more NATO weaponry than Ukrainians do (remember those weapons that were used by separatists that were considered as captured by Russians during conflict in Georgia, 2008?).

BTW. Where is Nicko and his Anatoliy Shariy? Nicko loves posting RT, just noticed my own city in cheap fake of RT. http://russian.rt.com/article/80942 such a cheap fake that even a kid can distinguish it. It's even worse than Nicolas Cage in his golden age.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 10:52:44 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 25, 2015, 10:44:20 am
Where are these weapons? I can show you a thousand of pictures of separatists using exclusively Russian weaponry which none of other countries has. Show me Ukrainians using American weaponry in ATO. Even separatists use more NATO weaponry than Ukrainians do (remember those weapons that were used by separatists that were considered as captured by Russians during conflict in Georgia, 2008?).
I don't know but I can imagine, that it is not so clear. I think ukranian army really doesn't have any of USA weapon. But I think some battalions like Aidar, Dnepr and so on, maybe Blackwater have USA weapons. I can't find the real truth, because there are a lot of fakes, propoganda and so on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 11:04:37 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 25, 2015, 10:44:20 am
Where are these weapons? I can show you a thousand of pictures of separatists using exclusively Russian weaponry which none of other countries has. Show me Ukrainians using American weaponry in ATO. Even separatists use more NATO weaponry than Ukrainians do (remember those weapons that were used by separatists that were considered as captured by Russians during conflict in Georgia, 2008?).

BTW. Where is Nicko and his Anatoliy Shariy? Nicko loves posting RT, just noticed my own city in cheap fake of RT. http://russian.rt.com/article/80942 such a cheap fake that even a kid can distinguish it. It's even worse than Nicolas Cage in his golden age.
AN/TPQ-49? Of course it is not lethal, it only indicates where those who should be killed

just before you talk about exclusivity check at least on Wikipedia, which countries armed with this exclusive
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 11:09:00 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 11:04:37 am
AN/TPQ-49? Of course it is not lethal, it only indicates where those who should be killed

just before you talk about exclusivity check at least on Wikipedia, which countries armed with this exclusive

A.k.a. Red herring. Next please.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 11:19:13 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 11:09:00 am
A.k.a. Red herring. Next please.
I certainly understand that Red herring is the second and the last thing than your country can be proud of  after the potatoes. But pls stop mention them  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 11:58:43 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 11:19:13 am
I certainly understand that Red herring is the second and the last thing than your country can be proud of  after the potatoes. But pls stop mention them  :P

You should stop throwing them left and right, then we can have "civilized" discussion, of which you might "not be tired" :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 01:29:47 pm
kk lets try again

so november they send (and its meant not gift but sell) 1st 3 of 20 of them
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123700

proof from ukraine side
http://www.ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/newsview/7/547

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvo8T7OvHVk
this is one of them in hands of separatist

two other destroyed or broken (to lazy for looking for proof link)

sooo ukraine bought three stations, and within a couple of months lost them, not a very comfortable situation сonsidering that the cost of such toys from hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars

as well, all these messages about "aid" from the World Bank, the United States or European Union nothing more than a special-purpose loans (not all but most of them, for some of them Ukraine providing concessions or services rather than just shall pay interest).
that is why i dont understand happiness of Ukrainians about another 10 millions of "aid" from the US that Ukraine can spend only for obtaining of "non-lethal" (for now) weapons from the United States

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 02:12:50 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 01:29:47 pm
kk lets try again

so november they send (and its meant not gift but sell) 1st 3 of 20 of them
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123700

proof from ukraine side
http://www.ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/newsview/7/547

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvo8T7OvHVk
this is one of them in hands of separatist

two other destroyed or broken (to lazy for looking for proof link)

sooo ukraine bought three stations, and within a couple of months lost them, not a very comfortable situation сonsidering that the cost of such toys from hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars

as well, all these messages about "aid" from the World Bank, the United States or European Union nothing more than a special-purpose loans (not all but most of them, for some of them Ukraine providing concessions or services rather than just shall pay interest).
that is why i dont understand happiness of Ukrainians about another 10 millions of "aid" from the US that Ukraine can spend only for obtaining of "non-lethal" (for now) weapons from the United States

Sorry to bring this to you, but this is :
a) Another red herring, trying to distract from the fact, that at best EXTREMELY SMALL amount of military support was provided to Ukraine by west, compared to full blown recruit-train-arm-command + send own troops for support, which russia did for the so called "rebels".
b) Old news regarding anti artilery radars. Given that they are nothing new - what is it that you want to say? Leave Ukraine for russia to wage war against and god-forbid interfere? If I had my say - your shit-compatriots acting as "rebels" would be looking at NATO UAV's, winged rockets, AT weapons and all possible and impossible intelligence west could provide to UAF, so that the fucktards with brainwashed heads could go back in coffins or with less limbs than they brought in the first place. Alas - my oppinion is of minority.
c) Ukraine needed loans, because of its internal problems. Your shit-nation made those problems even more severe. When the choice is  "loan with 5% interest" or "loan with 25% interest" - choice is quite obvious. And yes I know of the problems with IMF austerity measures, which are coming along with the loans, yet - there is barely any alternative + strict oversight by external party might be VERY useful for comating corruption.

And as to "why be happy?" - why not? First steps of sending ruskies back to their shithole along with their "slav bullshit world" and their "help" is always hard, as can be attested by most post-soviet countries, but the fruits of this task are simply awesome.

You on the other hand got stuck in an even deeper putler-created shit-state and all you can do now is bark at the train, which is leaving with Ukraine in it. And since you don't like it - shooting at it and bombing it some sounds kind of okay...ish.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 02:32:37 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 11:58:43 am
You should stop throwing them left and right, then we can have "civilized" discussion, of which you might "not be tired" :)
Quote from: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 02:12:50 pm
your shit-compatriots acting as "rebels" so that the fucktards with brainwashed heads could go back in coffins or with less limbs than they brought in the first place. 
Your shit-nation
sending ruskies back to their shithole along with their "slav bullshit world"
Any civilized discussion?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 02:44:46 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 02:32:37 pm
Any civilized discussion?
the legacy of Soviet education and genes Russian soldier in the blood (
I stopped noticing it after page 50 )
Meanwhile, another country half way towards democratization, eymen, $ 100 0000 for head of President
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 03:56:04 pm
Will you guys cry if I ruin this thread forever? Hope you won't open a new one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 25, 2015, 04:05:37 pm
guys its official, the plane over france was shot down by american anti aircraft battery, which is a part of occupation nato military convoy returning through poland atm. of course all the blame will go towards russians, fake proofs are already being fabricated and satellite pictures are being adjusted as we speak.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 04:38:43 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 02:32:37 pm
Any civilized discussion?
You ARE new here :)

Do you find strange masochistic pleasure in getting lies thrown in your face? Do you like bullshit? Because unfortunately - that is what you get when trying to have civilized discussion with "putler believers", I simply stopped caring and tell them what I think of them, their cleptocracy and the whole rotten country full of morons having delusions of grandeur. If you ask political leaders of... say... Germany - one gal called Merkel said that even putler, supposedly smart and diplomatic leader is talking as if from another reality. What would you expect from casuals? :)

I can be polite, but why bother? Talking means nothing to ruskies, too full of shit to listen to anything but their own "truth speakers" apointed by putler... so why bother? I know someone with more patience will, I'm cool with that, but one has to call bullshit for a bullshit that it is, you serve noone by letting the lies slip by, as if they were not spoken.

Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 02:44:46 pm
the legacy of Soviet education and genes Russian soldier in the blood (
<...bukkake...>
ALMOST a "yo mamma joke"... you almost got what it means to be a raging american on the interwebs, congratz.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 05:05:16 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 04:38:43 pm
You ARE new here :)

Do you find strange masochistic pleasure in getting lies thrown in your face? Do you like bullshit? Because unfortunately - that is what you get when trying to have civilized discussion with "putler believers", I simply stopped caring and tell them what I think of them, their cleptocracy and the whole rotten country full of morons having delusions of grandeur. If you ask political leaders of... say... Germany - one gal called Merkel said that even putler, supposedly smart and diplomatic leader is talking as if from another reality. What would you expect from casuals? :)
Yes I'm new. But I didn't see that Vovka wrote something so retarded. What I saw that he wrote about 3 radars, one of them was captured and gave links. And you started to use foul language and talking bad about his nation. That what I saw. Don't know what was on the previous pages, but now you just asked for civilized discussion and then got into insulting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 05:13:43 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 03:56:04 pm
Will you guys cry if I ruin this thread forever? Hope you won't open a new one.
Segd will find u and punish  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2015, 05:24:01 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 03:56:04 pm
Will you guys cry if I ruin this thread forever? Hope you won't open a new one.

How are you going to do that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 05:29:53 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 05:05:16 pm
Yes I'm new. But I didn't see that Vovka wrote something so retarded. What I saw that he wrote about 3 radars, one of them was captured and gave links. And you started to use foul language and talking bad about his nation. That what I saw. Don't know what was on the previous pages, but now you just asked for civilized discussion and then got into insulting.
Lets see...

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 25, 2015, 10:44:20 am
Where are these weapons? I can show you a thousand of pictures of separatists using exclusively Russian weaponry which none of other countries has. Show me Ukrainians using American weaponry in ATO. Even separatists use more NATO weaponry than Ukrainians do (remember those weapons that were used by separatists that were considered as captured by Russians during conflict in Georgia, 2008?).

Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 11:04:37 am
AN/TPQ-49? Of course it is not lethal, it only indicates where those who should be killed
just before you talk about exclusivity check at least on Wikipedia, which countries armed with this exclusive
THIS was a red herring.
Vovka then tries to explain why its not... with another red herring about Ukraines debts and what not.
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 01:29:47 pm
(click to show/hide)

So you stated something, which is NOT true and obvious to any attentitive and non-russian, Dave wrote as much, Vovka pulled out 2 red herrings, I ranted about that and once more called russia a shit-hole that it is, and dadam - here we are :)

Now after getting slapped with a red herring twice... I should be having civilized discussion because... why exactly? If you stay long enogh - Don Nicko will pull out the herring of Odessa and Tovi will call you a jewish racist naztee. WELCOME! :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 05:38:07 pm
So boring topic, it is all about you idiot, no you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2015, 05:41:41 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 25, 2015, 05:38:07 pm
So boring topic, it is all about you idiot, no you

u wot m9
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 25, 2015, 06:01:45 pm
Get me some toast and herring!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 25, 2015, 06:27:28 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 25, 2015, 06:01:45 pm
Get me some toast and herring!
Ask Vovka, Don or Tovi :P They have an abundance. If not new - they will pull out some of the rotten ones ;)

I stopped posting links to relevant info, as its pointless :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 25, 2015, 07:23:45 pm
so sad
(click to show/hide)
Title: Done with spam...
Post by: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 07:30:11 pm
...just like you should be done with this thread. Over and out!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 25, 2015, 07:40:43 pm
Oh come on, I expected something more..

Dramatic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 25, 2015, 07:58:54 pm
Wow. Such ruin. Much destroy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 25, 2015, 08:06:40 pm
My grandma internettrolls better than u Leshma.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 25, 2015, 08:20:27 pm
Leshma reported to moderators for racism. gg
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 09:02:30 pm
Well at least I'm on topic. Because this is Meanwhile in Russia topic, for last 200 pages.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on March 25, 2015, 09:14:25 pm
Where did Putin go?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 25, 2015, 10:46:52 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 25, 2015, 09:02:30 pm
Well at least I'm on topic. Because this is Meanwhile in Russia topic, for last 200 pages.

Erm... no? Unless you consider Donbass a Russian territory.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 26, 2015, 09:15:53 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 25, 2015, 10:46:52 pm
Erm... no? Unless you consider Donbass a Russian territory.

lol

that's exactly what your gvt thinks  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 26, 2015, 09:28:56 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 26, 2015, 09:15:53 am
lol

that's exactly what your gvt thinks  :mrgreen:
OH, look, a retard is back :D

Additional symptom: dyslexia...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 10:57:39 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 26, 2015, 09:28:56 am
OH, look, a retard is back :D
Additional symptom: dyslexia...
can u say something about his race pls? i have an idea )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 26, 2015, 01:24:32 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 10:57:39 am
can u say something about his race pls? i have an idea )
No? Because race does not imply retardidness or dyslexia?

Oh, and you have some nice countrymen there Vovka...
http://parlamentchr.ru/press-centre/news/1924-454-50
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 01:41:00 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 26, 2015, 01:24:32 pm
No? Because race does not imply retardidness or dyslexia?

Oh, and you have some nice countrymen there Vovka...
http://parlamentchr.ru/press-centre/news/1924-454-50
already read this morning) on the president elections my voice belongs to him )

it's time to return the native Mexican lands to Mexicans  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 26, 2015, 01:47:25 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 01:41:00 pm
already read this morning) on the president elections my voice belongs to him )

it's time to return the native Mexican lands to Mexicans  :P


 :P ))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 26, 2015, 02:01:50 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 01:41:00 pm
it's time to return the native Mexican lands to Mexicans  :P
And native indian lands to Indians  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 02:06:57 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 26, 2015, 02:01:50 pm
And native indian lands to Indians  :D
No, they have glass beads and tricorn hat for chief, a fair deal  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 26, 2015, 04:08:27 pm
Holy shit guys

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/03/25/403367/US-hands-over-10-Humvees-to-Ukraine (http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/03/25/403367/US-hands-over-10-Humvees-to-Ukraine)

Fucking USA empire sending their world police again, wow

fucking fascists kiev chocolate chip cookiejunta
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 26, 2015, 04:20:31 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 26, 2015, 04:08:27 pm
Holy shit guys

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/03/25/403367/US-hands-over-10-Humvees-to-Ukraine (http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/03/25/403367/US-hands-over-10-Humvees-to-Ukraine)

Fucking USA empire sending their world police again, wow

fucking fascists kiev chocolate chip cookiejunta
The comment section is literal cancer.


N Smith 17 hours ago
I hope Russia dont expose to the zionist west all its military power, in this show of might, save the best until last keep it secret

Cami 19 hours ago
America demonstrating once again, who is really responsible for the Ukrainian conflict by escalating it.

And so on, and so on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2015, 04:44:10 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 26, 2015, 04:08:27 pm
Holy shit guys

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/03/25/403367/US-hands-over-10-Humvees-to-Ukraine (http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/03/25/403367/US-hands-over-10-Humvees-to-Ukraine)

Fucking USA empire sending their world police again, wow

fucking fascists kiev chocolate chip cookiejunta

cookiejunta is now my favorite word.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 05:49:40 pm
http://defence-blog.com/?p=4431

more cookies! for cookiejunta ?  :P



Dragoons 1 - 0 Сivilians
fucking losers
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 26, 2015, 06:05:19 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Ctrl+F Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 06:09:59 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 26, 2015, 06:05:19 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Ctrl+F Russia
dont see a column "hit by a tank"  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2015, 06:14:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 06:09:59 pm
dont see a column "hit by a tank"  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 06:43:30 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 26, 2015, 06:14:27 pm
dat fucking shit-nation always steal ideas from muricans

love dat one

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 26, 2015, 06:52:37 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 06:09:59 pm
dont see a column "hit by a tank"  :P
:P ))))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on March 26, 2015, 08:06:34 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 26, 2015, 01:41:00 pm
already read this morning) on the president elections my voice belongs to him )

it's time to return the native Mexican lands to Mexicans  :P

Nope, that territory was acquired by a peace treaty and the US never agreed to recognize it's independence after that point.  Failed comparison to Russia/Ukraine situation.  Try again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2015, 09:25:32 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on March 26, 2015, 08:06:34 pm
Nope, that territory was acquired by a peace treaty and the US never agreed to recognize it's independence after that point.  Failed comparison to Russia/Ukraine situation.  Try again.

There's still the case of occupied North Texas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 26, 2015, 09:34:43 pm
Show me the people who were placed in their territory by God himself and have no blood on their hands, of the ones who occupied the spot before or their neighbors. Or how about we disregard the classic red herring from Vovka?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 27, 2015, 09:46:41 am
  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 27, 2015, 01:03:30 pm
http://kazzuraengsubs.tumblr.com/post/114683189756/bitter-truth-about-debaltsevo-operation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 27, 2015, 04:42:26 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 26, 2015, 09:34:43 pm
Show me the people who were placed in their territory by God himself and have no blood on their hands, of the ones who occupied the spot before or their neighbors.

To the best of our knowledge, Basque. And that's only an example I'm relatively familiar with.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 27, 2015, 05:18:44 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 27, 2015, 04:42:26 pm
To the best of our knowledge, Basque. And that's only an example I'm relatively familiar with.
So these people have went against human nature itself since time immemorial?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict

:O
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 27, 2015, 07:21:54 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on March 27, 2015, 11:05:16 am
The Welsh living in Wales

Celtic isn't native to the british isles. in fact the celts spent a few hundred years spreading out from central Europe in big migrations, covering a huge chunk of western europe. Who were the pre-celtic people of the british isles? What was their language? What did they call themselves?
Xant's point is that any collective tribal identification that survives to this day only does so because of war. This includes language groups. "Abberations" like basque only survived because of geography. Like kurdish and other isolated minorities that are identified primarily with mountainous or hilly territory, or other isolated types of terrain (deserts, out of the way insular, etc) . They weren't always, of course, that's just where the remnants eventually ended up, because the territory was easier to defend or just not worth conquering at all, as the rest of their people were displaced or assimilated. It wasn't some total population replacement genocide all the time (although you'd be surprised at how many were, the genetic data bears it out in certain cases), but think of how many tribal identifications in Europe alone have dissapeared entirely over the last, say, two thousand years. Don't even get me started on the MidEast and the deliberate obliteration of the many pre-Islamic cultures/languages that had existed for thousands of years prior to the arab eruption from the peninsula.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on March 27, 2015, 08:12:14 pm
An interview with a former professional troll employed by the russians to write nonsense at forums.

Maybe more sockpuppets than trolls. Not that this is really news, not sure if the site is credible either.
Just a reminder not to get too worked up by the most ignorant posters :D

The internet is sadly infested now with this plague.

http://www.rferl.mobi/a/how-to-guide-russian-trolling-trolls/26919999.html (http://www.rferl.mobi/a/how-to-guide-russian-trolling-trolls/26919999.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 27, 2015, 08:26:53 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on March 27, 2015, 07:21:54 pm
Xant's point is that any collective tribal identification that survives to this day only does so because of war.
Yup, and they kill each other within the tribal identification as well -- Native American tribe Y exterminated tribe X to take their lands and settled there. Then comes Europeans and exterminate the Native Americans. Who has moral high ground? Nobody. There is no god given land, no people have always existed somewhere peacefully, "by right." Unless that right is might.

So it's ridiculous to talk about what happened in history and how X should return Z to Y. It has no bearing on modern day. In the year of our lord 2015 invasion of other civilized countries is kind of frowned upon, which is why people in general aren't hugely supportive of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Who the true owners of Mexico are is completely beside the point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 27, 2015, 08:44:15 pm
@torost..

Radio Free Europe is not exactly neutral.. pretty much one of the least neutral sources you can find in the west, except insane fox news.. Check out its history on wikipedia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 27, 2015, 08:50:53 pm
Is this the same 'Radio Free Europe' we had until 1993?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty#Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty#Hungary)


And it is. wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 27, 2015, 11:31:58 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 26, 2015, 09:34:43 pm
Show me the people who were placed in their territory by God himself and have no blood on their hands, of the ones who occupied the spot before or their neighbors. Or how about we disregard the classic red herring from Vovka?
Ukrainians living on the territory of modern Ukraine for the past 20,000 years, of course, some of them migrated to the north (you may know them as the Vikings),  others have gone to Africa, some have gone to the west (the most famous of them  Romulus and Remus) a so on  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 27, 2015, 11:55:48 pm
well, there was a thing like migration period 1500 years ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2015, 12:15:49 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 27, 2015, 11:31:58 pm
Ukrainians living on the territory of modern Ukraine for the past 20,000 years, of course, some of them migrated to the north (you may know them as the Vikings),  others have gone to Africa, some have gone to the west (the most famous of them  Romulus and Remus) a so on  :P
:P )))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 28, 2015, 01:52:08 am
Quote from: Xant on March 27, 2015, 05:18:44 pm
So these people have went against human nature itself since time immemorial?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict

:O

I'm fully aware of that, it's just your last point which seems (again, to the best of our knowledge) fulfilled by Basque.

Quote from: Oberyn on March 27, 2015, 07:21:54 pm
"Abberations" like basque only survived because of geography. Like kurdish and other isolated minorities that are identified primarily with mountainous or hilly territory, or other isolated types of terrain (deserts, out of the way insular, etc) . They weren't always, of course, that's just where the remnants eventually ended up, because the territory was easier to defend or just not worth conquering at all, as the rest of their people were displaced or assimilated.

Actually it never happened any other way. In basically every region of the world, today's territorial minorities were dominant and got invaded by another ethnic which became dominant. It doesn't make sense for populations to spread otherwise. Invaders invade for a reason. Usually because they were stronger and more aggressive. So they tend to settle everywhere and occasionally leave some bits to the natives, taking the productive lands for themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2015, 07:34:32 am
Quote from: Kafein on March 28, 2015, 01:52:08 am
I'm fully aware of that, it's just your last point which seems (again, to the best of our knowledge) fulfilled by Basque.
Nope.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 28, 2015, 08:41:48 am
Quote from: Kafein on March 28, 2015, 01:52:08 am
I'm fully aware of that, it's just your last point which seems (again, to the best of our knowledge) fulfilled by Basque.

Actually it never happened any other way. In basically every region of the world, today's territorial minorities were dominant and got invaded by another ethnic which became dominant. It doesn't make sense for populations to spread otherwise. Invaders invade for a reason. Usually because they were stronger and more aggressive. So they tend to settle everywhere and occasionally leave some bits to the natives, taking the productive lands for themselves.

So you're saying the basques sprang from the Pyrenees fully formed? Recorded history stretches back only a few thousand years, even less in Europe. We are forced to rely largely on archeology and conjecture beyond. Yet we know the continent has been populated much longer than that. You don't think it plausible that maybe the ancestors of the basques were perhaps part of one of the many overlapping waves of migration over thousands of years? Fuck, if you really wanna go far back I could just make the point that as homo sapiens their ancestors were obviously conquering migrants that displaced/genocided/absorbed the neanderthals.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2015, 01:05:55 pm
I mean, look at where the Basques are located. There isn't even any point arguing it. If you wanted to argue about it, the only ones where it'd even make sense would be for people like Inuits or something (because nobody else wants to live there) and even then it'd be massively naïve.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 01:59:04 pm
Quote from: Vovka on March 27, 2015, 11:31:58 pm
Ukrainians living on the territory of modern Ukraine for the past 20,000 years
No Vovka you are wrong. Look at the modern ukranian history books
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

They have lived there for 140000 years
Another ukranian historian says they live there for 1000000 years
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

So imho ukranians are:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 28, 2015, 02:39:55 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 01:59:04 pm
No Vovka you are wrong. Look at the modern ukranian history books
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

They have lived there for 140000 years
Another ukranian historian says they live there for 1000000 years
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

So imho ukranians are:
(click to show/hide)

I'm not sure if trolling or just stupid. Can you even read what's written there?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 02:46:59 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 28, 2015, 02:39:55 pm
I'm not sure if trolling or just stupid. Can you even read what's written there?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Trolling and I can't read
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 28, 2015, 03:49:28 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 02:46:59 pm
Trolling and I can't read
Another Vovka...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 04:33:09 pm
https://youtu.be/NRlU-E5sYXE
Comments please
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2015, 05:05:21 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 04:33:09 pm
https://youtu.be/NRlU-E5sYXE
Comments please
?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 05:12:55 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 28, 2015, 05:05:21 pm
?
??
Ukranian girl shooting at the village, will she be punished anyhow?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 28, 2015, 05:23:08 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 05:12:55 pm
??
Ukranian girl shooting at the village, will she be punished anyhow?

For separatists hiding in civilian houses? The majority of such small villages are empty anyway, not even separatists are there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 05:40:25 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 28, 2015, 05:23:08 pm
For separatists hiding in civilian houses? The majority of such small villages are empty anyway, not even separatists are there.
If so then OK, but IMHO shooting at building not good anyways
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on March 28, 2015, 05:49:09 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 04:33:09 pm
https://youtu.be/NRlU-E5sYXE
Comments please

needs more allahu akbar.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 28, 2015, 06:07:17 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 05:12:55 pm
??
Ukranian girl shooting at the village, will she be punished anyhow?
Nice veiled attempt at "being objective" at first, now you look proper!

Please comment!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 06:14:45 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 28, 2015, 06:07:17 pm
Nice veiled attempt at "being objective" at first, now you look proper!

Please comment!
Attempt at being objective? Fishing with grenades is for dumbs, and this people on the video seems are. Your comment about ukranian girl?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2015, 06:33:36 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 05:40:25 pm
If so then OK, but IMHO shooting at building not good anyways
Do you know what war means? You know, like, in real life, not in Disney movies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 06:43:56 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 28, 2015, 06:33:36 pm
Do you know what war means? You know, like, in real life, not in Disney movies.
What was your question for? Do you know what war means?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2015, 06:54:57 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 06:43:56 pm
What was your question for? Do you know what war means?
What was your question for? Do you know what war means?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 06:56:41 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 28, 2015, 06:54:57 pm
What was your question for? Do you know what war means?
I don't know what the real war looks like and didn't understand what your question was for.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 28, 2015, 08:39:18 pm
Well, y'see, in war "not good" things happen. Some random building taking damage is the least of anyone's problems.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 28, 2015, 08:56:19 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 28, 2015, 05:23:08 pm
For separatists hiding in civilian houses? The majority of such small villages are empty anyway, not even separatists are there.
pretty shure she headshoot 10 of them )) Just admit that she stupid bitch, and wanted to make nice video.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 09:12:18 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 28, 2015, 08:39:18 pm
Well, y'see, in war "not good" things happen. Some random building taking damage is the least of anyone's problems.
Did you see the video? She made it just for fun, and as I know it is ceasefire now. In the west media I see how separatists and Russia are badn that they break ceasefire and so on, and never saw how ukranian army is bad. I don't like to learn only one side's opinion and try to see both sides. What is clear for me, that Russia took Crimea or annexed without any murders. Also Russia helped Donbass in their rebellion with troops and weapons. Ukraine started ATO. Ukranian army shelled Donetsk and Luhansk, because of that more then 1000 civilians were killed. Sometimes this shellings were at positions, where no separatists were noticed. It was schools, hospitals. And I watched opinion of Donbass people and people on the west. Nobody wants this war. And people in Donbass hate Poroshenko.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 28, 2015, 11:21:24 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 26, 2015, 09:34:43 pm
of the ones who occupied the spot before or their neighbors.

Oberyn and Xant, this is what I'm talking about. Yes, I know the region had been very probably previously occupied before the Basque arrived, but their presence there is ancient enough that we don't have much in the way of clues, in whatever form. Interestingly enough, even the Inuit didn't find Northern Canada unoccupied, as the now extinct "Dorset people" lived there before.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 09:12:18 pm
What is clear for me, that Russia took Crimea or annexed without any murders.

They executed an old plan/dream, that they had no right to. Ukraine gave away their nuclear weapons so that RF would respects its territory. Of course, RF has had its fat fingers in Ukrainian politics since its inception. Even the RF developed (Excellent) flight sim Su-27 from 1996 had crimea as the only map and scenario, with the main thing being Ukraine vs RF.

Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 09:12:18 pm
Also Russia helped Donbass in their rebellion with troops and weapons.

No, RF created the rebellion, tried to make it look like a natural Maidan. I remember the videos of pure white sandbags blocking streets. It was not a people's revolt, but planned, started, commanded from RF, again with semi-military means. A more advanced version of crimea.

Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 09:12:18 pm
Ukranian army shelled Donetsk and Luhansk

Afair the first reports of artillery being used was RF shelling of Ukrainian troops from across the border. IMO Ukraine commanders had no option but to set hard against hard. RF just responded by escalating the brutality at will. They had thousands of soldiers ready across the border, shuffling them in and out as they wanted.

Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 09:12:18 pm
Sometimes this shellings were at positions, where no separatists were noticed. It was schools, hospitals.

I'm sure shit happens in war, both ways. Sometimes Ukrainian separatists "finds" BUK's and shoot down civilian airplanes.

Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 09:12:18 pm
And I watched opinion of Donbass people and people on the west. Nobody wants this war. And people in Donbass hate Poroshenko.

Considering you are in deep shit if you air your true opinion about separatists, that such opinion would never be broadcast in RF media, that most Ukr sympathizers have run away long time ago, considering that RF propaganda has been bombarding Ukr with bullshit about baby crucifixion style lies since the start of the conflict... well no shit, im sure they hate Poroshenko. The rest of Ukraine now hates Putin though.

Go see the vice documentaries from maidan, crimea and on.

The only thing is that nobody wants this war, except Putin of course. The war is absurd, and its mostly about russian pride.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 29, 2015, 12:46:19 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
I remember the videos of pure white sandbags blocking streets. It was not a people's revolt, but planned, started, commanded from RF,
Russian army has a special unit to deploy pure white bags, so if you see white bags - Army close.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 01:33:24 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 28, 2015, 08:56:19 pm
pretty shure she headshoot 10 of them )) Just admit that she stupid bitch, and wanted to make nice video.

She is, it's kinda obvious. I'm also sceptical about the whole Aydar batallion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on March 29, 2015, 04:44:33 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 29, 2015, 12:46:19 am
Russian army has a special unit to deploy pure white bags, so if you see white bags - Army close.
(click to show/hide)

Of course, the bags could have come from anywhere. Point is that the whole thing seemed artificial, planned and commanded, rather than a people's protest. It looked like, and was, "a copy of maidan" as it would be executed by military thinking people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 29, 2015, 08:09:00 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 29, 2015, 04:44:33 am
Of course, the bags could have come from anywhere. Point is that the whole thing seemed artificial, planned and commanded, rather than a people's protest. It looked like, and was, "a copy of maidan" as it would be executed by military thinking people.
I'm amazed that you are STILL not weary of arguing this :)

As the saying goeas - "if it quacks, like a russian little-green-man, if it acts like a russian little-green-man, it must be a natural local armed uprising against russian propaganda created bullshit".

And then some new moron comes and tries to "explain how it really is"...objectively, based or RT  :D
Incidentally - related piece about this http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russian-propaganda-exploits-western-weakness/518092.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 29, 2015, 09:36:08 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 29, 2015, 08:09:00 am
I'm amazed that you are STILL not weary of arguing this :)
As the saying goeas - "if it quacks, like a russian little-green-man, if it acts like a russian little-green-man, it must be a natural local armed uprising against russian propaganda created bullshit".
And then some new moron comes and tries to "explain how it really is"...objectively, based or RT  :D
Incidentally - related piece about this http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russian-propaganda-exploits-western-weakness/518092.html

you really surf the Internet and read for hours all this crap that you post link here?? You have a problem, unless you are writing a doctorate about Central Asia. My advice is to find yourself a babe (I hope you have a free $ 20) and fuck her.  If suddenly your mother managed to marry you, put a bag on ur wife's ugly head and fuck her, smoke a cigarette again fuck again. Stop being a neerd.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 29, 2015, 10:26:42 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 09:12:18 pm
Did you see the video? She made it just for fun, and as I know it is ceasefire now.
Yes. So what? Pretty sure the thousands of people dying because Russia invaded Ukraine is a more pressing issue.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 10:56:28 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
They executed an old plan/dream, that they had no right to. Ukraine gave away their nuclear weapons so that RF would respects its territory. Of course, RF has had its fat fingers in Ukrainian politics since its inception. Even the RF developed (Excellent) flight sim Su-27 from 1996 had crimea as the only map and scenario, with the main thing being Ukraine vs RF.
Well maybe they had this plan. IMHO ukranian politics acted too rough against RF, politically they made many mistakes. RF used revolution in Kiev to annex Crimea, even after one year of annexation people in Crimea thinks that they made a right chose. I think RF planned this referendum, maybe later and Crimea would join RF anyways, RF used situation in Kiev. Bad or good I don't know.

Quote from: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
No, RF created the rebellion, tried to make it look like a natural Maidan. I remember the videos of pure white sandbags blocking streets. It was not a people's revolt, but planned, started, commanded from RF, again with semi-military means. A more advanced version of crimea.
Well maybe yes, maybe no. Anyway people in Donbass were ready for this rebellion.

Quote from: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
Afair the first reports of artillery being used was RF shelling of Ukrainian troops from across the border. IMO Ukraine commanders had no option but to set hard against hard. RF just responded by escalating the brutality at will. They had thousands of soldiers ready across the border, shuffling them in and out as they wanted.
And this explains why ukranian army shelled Donetsk and Luhansk? About first reports I can disagree, or this first reports you heard. Ukranian army also shelled across the border.

Quote from: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
I'm sure shit happens in war, both ways. Sometimes Ukrainian separatists "finds" BUK's and shoot down civilian airplanes.
I'm not that sure that separatists shot down that airplane, but it can be. But shelling schools and hospitals and children gardens were not a one mistake, there were a lot of shellings.

Quote from: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
Considering you are in deep shit if you air your true opinion about separatists, that such opinion would never be broadcast in RF media, that most Ukr sympathizers have run away long time ago, considering that RF propaganda has been bombarding Ukr with bullshit about baby crucifixion style lies since the start of the conflict... well no shit, im sure they hate Poroshenko. The rest of Ukraine now hates Putin though.
Don't know about RF media. But what I heard from Donbass civilians ukranian troops robbed people, shelled buildings from tanks just for fun. And Donbass people watch ukr TV too, and they see what a huge lie ukr TV say, every shelling of them they made by themselves. Ofcourse they will hate Poroshenko and ukr TV.

Quote from: Thomek on March 28, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
The only thing is that nobody wants this war, except Putin of course. The war is absurd, and its mostly about russian pride.
Interesting why you think that only Putin gains something. For me USA gain more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 29, 2015, 11:00:48 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 29, 2015, 09:36:08 am
you really surf the Internet and read for hours all this crap that you post link here?? You have a problem, unless you are writing a doctorate about Central Asia. My advice is to find yourself a babe (I hope you have a free $ 20) and fuck her.  If suddenly your mother managed to marry you, put a bag on ur wife's ugly head and fuck her, smoke a cigarette again fuck again. Stop being a neerd.
(click to show/hide)
DAYM.... Vovka, you be learnin! I'm proud of you, next time your  "yo mamma" joke may even succeed, be sure to try again!  :lol:

After you finish attacking the messenger though - try addressing the message :) Y'aknow... for the "civilized discussion", of which you "don't get tired" all of a sudden  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 29, 2015, 11:15:14 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 10:56:28 am
[...]
Interesting why you think that only Putin gains something. For me USA gain more.
Care to eleborate?
Tovi and Nicko claim the same thing and they have yet to back up their claims by anything more than just conspiracy bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 11:49:20 am
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2015, 11:15:14 am
Care to eleborate?
Tovi and Nicko claim the same thing and they have yet to back up their claims by anything more than just conspiracy bullshit.
Well it is trade of military equipment, tarde between RF and USA increased by 7%, USA export to RF raised by 21%. Trade between EU and RF decreased by 4.3%. Son of Baiden become a director of the company which produces slate oil. And what conspiracy bullshit? It is just a statistics. I just can't understand what Putin gained from this war in Donbass.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 12:34:22 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 11:49:20 am
Well it is trade of military equipment, tarde between RF and USA increased by 7%, USA export to RF raised by 21%. Trade between EU and RF decreased by 4.3%. Son of Baiden become a director of the company which produces slate oil. And what conspiracy bullshit? It is just a statistics. I just can't understand what Putin gained from this war in Donbass.

If it's just statistics can you provide source for it? According to my statistics 97.6% of your previous message is bullshit. Smells like we've got Nicko's successor here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 29, 2015, 12:41:42 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 11:49:20 am
Well it is trade of military equipment, tarde between RF and USA increased by 7%, USA export to RF raised by 21%. Trade between EU and RF decreased by 4.3%. Son of Baiden become a director of the company which produces slate oil. And what conspiracy bullshit? It is just a statistics. I just can't understand what Putin gained from this war in Donbass.
If USA benefits so much, and Putin doesn't, then why would Russia keep supporting the separatists with men and equipment? Since the separatists take their orders from Russia, Putin could make it stop at any point. Or why do you think all the peace negotiations have been with Putin?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 12:47:50 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 29, 2015, 12:41:42 pm
If USA benefits so much, and Putin doesn't, then why would Russia keep supporting the separatists with men and equipment? Since the separatists take their orders from Russia, Putin could make it stop at any point. Or why do you think all the peace negotiations have been with Putin?

At some point statements of certain people look like "I fucked your mother" and then we reply with questions/demands looking like idiots ourselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 29, 2015, 12:51:40 pm
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102540947

"In a published statement on the legislature's website Tuesday, he said that Chechnya would begin the delivery of new weapons to Mexico and mentioned the arming of "Guerrillas" in the region."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102534017?__source=yahoo
"The U.K. has sent extra military support to one of its overseas colonies at the bottom of the world, the Falkland Islands, amid concerns that it is facing increased risk of attack from Argentina, backed by Russia. "

Quote from President of Argentina:
"The Malvinas has always belonged to Argentina, the same way that Crimea also belonged to the Soviet Union until it was given to Ukraine."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 12:58:27 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 29, 2015, 12:51:40 pm
Quote from President of Argentina:
"The Malvinas has always belonged to Argentina, the same way that Crimea also belonged to the Soviet Union until it was given to Ukraine."

Crimea belonged to UkrSSR for decades at the point Soviet Union fell apart. It was not given to Ukraine by anyone, it was a part of UkrSSR. It's like saying Moscow belonged to USSR until it was given to Russian Federation. Everything that was a part of USSR belonged to USSR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on March 29, 2015, 01:09:58 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 12:58:27 pm
Crimea belonged to UkrSSR for decades at the point Soviet Union fell apart. It was not given to Ukraine by anyone, it was a part of UkrSSR. It's like saying Moscow belonged to USSR until it was given to Russian Federation. Everything that was a part of USSR belonged to USSR.

Take it up with President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner of Argentina, i just posted the article.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 01:12:04 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on March 29, 2015, 01:09:58 pm
Take it up with President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner of Argentina, i just posted the article.

Yeah, I quoted that. Just saying that phrases like that are just stupid as hell.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 01:17:45 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 08:18:53 pm
Eastern Ukrainians (Ukrainians mixed with western Russians, pure Russians and Tatars, eastern is just formal, this also contains the whole southern Ukraine): are mostly passive in everything and act more or less like Russians these days (no matter how bad things are - you're either afraid to show your opinion or you just eat it and carry on). Most of them are considered as low educated and bad mannered ignorant alcoholics of working class (called "bydlo" in Ukrainian)
Dave seems you are so retarded, I'm not surprised that you find my opnion as a bullshit. I think you just can't think another way  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 01:22:06 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 01:17:45 pm
Dave seems you are so retarded, I'm not surprised that you find my opnion as a bullshit. I think you just can't think another way  :rolleyes:

Lol, I wrote it how it is in reality. And my own city is also considered as eastern even though it's in South West. Ask random people in Moscow what they think about people from Northern Caucasus. If most people are considered as something it doesn't mean that it's true.
It's just so funny that instead of proving what you called statistics - you just started calling me names, quoting random post made more than a year ago and calling "statistics" your opinion.
That's not the point boy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 29, 2015, 01:22:27 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 01:17:45 pm
Dave seems you are so retarded, I'm not surprised that you find my opnion as a bullshit. I think you just can't think another way  :rolleyes:
So let me get this straight. You ignore direct questions addressed to you regarding statements you made and instead quote an irrelevant post by Dave from a year ago and just ad hominem him.

It's like a deja vu, Tovi and DonNicko all over again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 01:57:00 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 01:22:06 pm
Lol, I wrote it how it is in reality. And my own city is also considered as eastern even though it's in South West. Ask random people in Moscow what they think about people from Northern Caucasus. If most people are considered as something it doesn't mean that it's true.
It's just so funny that instead of proving what you called statistics - you just started calling me names, quoting random post made more than a year ago and calling "statistics" your opinion.
That's not the point boy.
Ok, previous post just show that you are retarded. Speaking about people in that way just proves your retardness
About links, just to show your retardness
About Biden
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101669271
About %
http://rbth.co.uk/news/2014/12/22/russias_trade_with_us_grows_with_eu_falls_-_putin_42460.html
So what?
Also about that girl firing at the village, instead of accusation you started to find justification.
I'm new here but you act as a retarded if the opninion is different from yours
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 29, 2015, 02:09:38 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 29, 2015, 01:22:27 pm
So let me get this straight. You ignore direct questions addressed to you regarding statements you made and instead quote an irrelevant post by Dave from a year ago and just ad hominem him.

It's like a deja vu, Tovi and DonNicko all over again.
No. This looks like proper paid troll.

1. New acc? Check.
2. Assumes "Neutrality" at first? Check.
3. Feeding red herrings all round (well, thats not a sign of troll, just a ruskie)? Check.
4. Unable to answer specific questions? Check.
5. Posting barely relevant videos with expectation, that from an example a rule may be formed? Check.

CBA to continue... My S.P.E.S.H.U.L. 69 step analysis is complete!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on March 29, 2015, 02:11:19 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 29, 2015, 01:57:00 pm
http://rbth.co.uk/news/2014/12/22/russias_trade_with_us_grows_with_eu_falls_-_putin_42460.html
interfax.ru - "Article posted as provided by Interfax.ru"

Content of article "Putin said..." :lol:

I'd like a second opinion :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2015, 07:41:44 pm
Quote from: Molly on March 29, 2015, 02:11:19 pm
interfax.ru - "Article posted as provided by Interfax.ru"

Content of article "Putin said..." :lol:

I'd like a second opinion :D

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4621.html

Sadly it only has January of this year. But if we compare, it was a net decrease.

Here's another fun one:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/balance-of-trade

Since the War and sanctions, russias trade with the world has gone down, but it's starting to pop back up. Not up to pre-war levels though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on March 29, 2015, 09:57:19 pm
When again to walls with dripping glue,
They start to paste their signs,
When to dear people and dear soldiers too,
The ink blast-blackens through,
And every goon, and every foolish swine,
Takes this everlasting lie as true:
That one must go and by cannon rip asunder,
Murder, poison, burn and plunder;
When in the thousandth way they charm,
“Homeland, harm”—and by this sleight
of-hand delude with coat-of-arms,
And incite by reason of “historical right”,
The power, the glory, the frontiers,
Of our fathers, forefathers and their banners,
Of heroes and martyrs;
When the bishop, priest and rabbi,
All emerge to bless your rifle to the skies,
Because they themselves have heard God say,
For the homeland all must fight today;
When the cadaverous screech of vulgarized
front-page paper headlines rings,
And herds of wild women canonize
—with flowers—our brave little soldierlings:
“But, my dear unlearn'ed friend,
My brother from this or other worlds!
Know that they beat their drums with dread,
These kings with paunchy maiden-girls;
Know that it’s a sham, a common ruse,
When they command you: “Shoulder arms!”,
For somewhere deep their oil’s begun to ooze,
Yielding a harvest of dollars;
That banks aren’t quite to their liking—that
they’ve sniffed out cash in places easier to access,
Or else set-sights, these fattest cats,
On even fatter taxes.
Thresh the streets with bullets until you free the soil,
The blood is yours, the oil theirs!
And from capital to capital
call out, defending your blood, sweat and toil:
‘Fuck you—it’s us, you noble heirs!’”


PS. Meh, don't think this translation do justice to the great poem. Here's another one:
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 29, 2015, 10:34:35 pm
today was a good day, we greeted the nato convoy and us soldiers, most of the putler sympathizers and commies stayed home or (and that is a better option) they just slowly keep dying as most of them are old and senile to the point of alzheimer (similar to vovka, nicko and others) :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 12:08:56 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 25, 2015, 10:11:11 am
the free people of donbass start it not russia!. russia only support their aspirations for freedom and independence! or for you it's just empty words ?!
Dear Vovka
We kinda(kinda cos we never talk on any chat even ts but i know you from battlefield) know each other for like 6 years or so. I allways find you as inteligent person able to rule DRZ and Grey Order with good efectivness. If i would only stay with my first thoughts about you i would say that this sentece is just an irony or sarcasm. But when this UKR - Russia war began im not sure what to think about you so i will explain my thoughts.

My thoughts are pretty simple im sending 5 of my friends to your house. Since you are hospitable person you agree for them to stay with you and work on your farm/workshop/sth. Then after few years i organize an elections during which i claim your house is mine cos 5 out of 9 guys there are from my familly game over if you not agree then Javelin in your tank GG WP.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 30, 2015, 12:23:29 am
Quote from: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 12:08:56 am
Dear Vovka
We kinda(kinda cos we never talk on any chat even ts but i know you from battlefield) know each other for like 6 years or so. I allways find you as inteligent person able to rule DRZ and Grey Order very with good efectivness. If i would only stay with my first thoughts about you i would say that this sentece is just an irony or sarcasm. But when this UKR - Russia war began im not sure what to think about you so i will explain my thoughts.

My thoughts are pretty simple im sending 5 of my friends to your house. Since you are hospitable person you agree for them to stay with you and work on your farm/workshop/sth. Then after few years i organize an elections during which i claim your house is mine cos 5 out of 9 guys there are from my familly game over if you not agree then Javelin in your tank GG WP.

good try, but to complicated for vovka, he won't understand. nebun was the mastermind, vovka was a fuckbuddy :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 12:58:12 am
I think being fuckbuddy of Nebun can obligate person to be at some level of inteligence(plus i heard Rogue talking about Vovka once and it leaves me with idea he is quite smart <plus i saw many of his posts on this forum from Pre-war and they were pretty inteligent and analitic.). But i think in this case inteligence can be easly neglected by emotions caused by "WE CONQUERED CRIMEA !!RUSSIA POWERFULL !!!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 30, 2015, 01:32:20 am
What was it, that Tovi said? China being on the side of Russia?

http://rt.com/business/244561-hina-ukraine-billions-investment/

Hey, look, it's even on RT :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 30, 2015, 01:49:49 am
Quote from: [ptx] on March 30, 2015, 01:32:20 am
What was it, that Tovi said? China being on the side of Russia?

http://rt.com/business/244561-hina-ukraine-billions-investment/

Hey, look, it's even on RT :o

China stands far more to lose by siding with Russia than not. China is overly reliant on Western money. (And vice versa, but the Western world can more effectively say no to China than the other way around)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 30, 2015, 01:51:31 am
Quote from: [ptx] on March 30, 2015, 01:32:20 am
What was it, that Tovi said? China being on the side of Russia?

http://rt.com/business/244561-hina-ukraine-billions-investment/

Hey, look, it's even on RT :o
How does that mean China isn't on the side of Russia?

Even the first commenter says:

SteveUK 6 hours ago
Good. Keep tightening the bonds between Russia, China and Ukraine and keep the Western warlords at arms length and In time the people of the West will turn against our rotten governments to embrace a long lasting global peace, I hope!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 30, 2015, 01:52:21 am
Haha those comments are fucking gold
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on March 30, 2015, 08:06:22 am
Oh, yes, of course i didn't realize, this is all as planned by Mr. Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 30, 2015, 08:25:21 am
Quote from: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 12:58:12 am
I think being fuckbuddy of Nebun can obligate person to be at some level of inteligence(plus i heard Rogue talking about Vovka once and it leaves me with idea he is quite smart <plus i saw many of his posts on this forum from Pre-war and they were pretty inteligent and analitic.). But i think in this case inteligence can be easly neglected by emotions caused by "WE CONQUERED CRIMEA !!RUSSIA POWERFULL !!!"
FUCK THE INTELEGENT! CRIMEA OUR!NEBUN FOR PRESIDENT!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 30, 2015, 08:44:56 am
Quote from: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 12:58:12 am
I think being fuckbuddy of Nebun can obligate person to be at some level of inteligence(plus i heard Rogue talking about Vovka once and it leaves me with idea he is quite smart <plus i saw many of his posts on this forum from Pre-war and they were pretty inteligent and analitic.). But i think in this case inteligence can be easly neglected by emotions caused by "WE CONQUERED CRIMEA !!RUSSIA POWERFULL !!!"
Well... I don't think his intelligence is completely overwhelmed. I think its visible because he does not post inflamatory bullshit (usually) and only attempts jokes (EVEN "YO MAMMA", which is too 'mmmurrican to be easily recreated by a common russian) when confronted with serious/semi-serious questions. Compare that to Dons "I was wounded, qq, I know how stuffs iz!" or "what about Odessa, think of the ODESSA!!! And the kids!!!", not even mentioning Tovi and his NWO triangles of love :rolleyes:

On the other hand - a couple of russian colleagues of mine, who emigrated during past year, complained next to a beer, that one simply CAN'T wall off enough from the propaganda bullshit, which russia is feeding to its people. Thus - however wise, smart, intelligent one is - the effect of "krim naš" is still there... unfortunately.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 30, 2015, 08:49:51 am
Quote from: Vovka on March 30, 2015, 08:25:21 am
FUCK THE INTELEGENT! CRIMEA OUR!NEBUN FOR PRESIDENT!
You wrote Intelligence wrong.

Police accademy in random CCCP nation. Instructor gives lecture to new students.
- What is the most important quality of a police officer?
COMPLETE silence. Like the one in KGB bunkers.
- Ok, first letter is "E", anyone want to guess?
Few hands rise. After being pointed at - shaky voice asks:
- Energy?
- DAFUK? What do you need energy for in law enforcement? Sit down and be silent... Noob.
Another one asks even more shyly:
- Enthusiasm?
- What planet are you from? Sit down and STFU while I tollerate you ass in this classroom.
Noone else suggests anything. Finally the instructor speaks...
- You lot are pathetic idiots. ENTELEGENCE! The most important quality for a law enforcer is ENTELEGENCE!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 30, 2015, 08:54:15 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 30, 2015, 08:49:51 am
You wrote Intelligence wrong.

Police accademy in random CCCP nation. Instructor gives lecture to new students.
- What is the most important quality of a police officer?
COMPLETE silence. Like the one in KGB bunkers.
- Ok, first letter is "E", anyone want to guess?
Few hands rise. After being pointed at - shaky voice asks:
- Energy?
- DAFUK? What do you need energy for in law enforcement? Sit down and be silent... Noob.
Another one asks even more shyly:
- Enthusiasm?
- What planet are you from? Sit down and STFU while I tollerate you ass in this classroom.
Noone else suggests anything. Finally the instructor speaks...
- You lot are pathetic idiots. ENTELEGENCE! The most important quality for a law enforcer is ENTELEGENCE!
ty! now i even more ENTELEGENCE than before!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on March 30, 2015, 09:15:07 am
Quote from: Kuujis on March 30, 2015, 08:49:51 am
You wrote Intelligence wrong.

Police accademy in random CCCP nation. Instructor gives lecture to new students.
- What is the most important quality of a police officer?
COMPLETE silence. Like the one in KGB bunkers.
- Ok, first letter is "E", anyone want to guess?
Few hands rise. After being pointed at - shaky voice asks:
- Energy?
- DAFUK? What do you need energy for in law enforcement? Sit down and be silent... Noob.
Another one asks even more shyly:
- Enthusiasm?
- What planet are you from? Sit down and STFU while I tollerate you ass in this classroom.
Noone else suggests anything. Finally the instructor speaks...
- You lot are pathetic idiots. ENTELEGENCE! The most important quality for a law enforcer is ENTELEGENCE!

intellekktual intelligens

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on March 30, 2015, 10:35:02 am
Quote from: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 12:58:12 am
I think being fuckbuddy of Nebun can obligate person to be at some level of inteligence(plus i heard Rogue talking about Vovka once and it leaves me with idea he is quite smart <plus i saw many of his posts on this forum from Pre-war and they were pretty inteligent and analitic.). But i think in this case inteligence can be easly neglected by emotions caused by "WE CONQUERED CRIMEA !!RUSSIA POWERFULL !!!"

As far as i remember you're a psychologist? I think its not uncommon that somebody just goes mental. I just don't know if its starting schizophrenia or some other shitte, you should probably be able to diagnose it better :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on March 30, 2015, 11:34:41 am
Quote from: [ptx] on March 30, 2015, 01:32:20 am
What was it, that Tovi said? China being on the side of Russia?

http://rt.com/business/244561-hina-ukraine-billions-investment/

Hey, look, it's even on RT :o

Even Russia sells coal and ammunitions to Ukraine... business is business. A bank or a company is not a state.


For the first time, I must admit that Ukraine did a good thing by kicking out Kolomoïsky.
Dave, do you still think he's a good guy ? ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 30, 2015, 11:48:45 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 30, 2015, 11:34:41 am
For the first time, I must admit that Ukraine did a good thing by kicking out Kolomoïsky.
Dave, do you still think he's a good guy ? ;)
pff, i bet next step will be privatization UKRNAFTA by foreigners


[enter a name except vovka] in this thread:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 04:26:05 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on March 30, 2015, 10:35:02 am
As far as i remember you're a psychologist? I think its not uncommon that somebody just goes mental. I just don't know if its starting schizophrenia or some other shitte, you should probably be able to diagnose it better :)
Yes im also a psychotherapist. Schizophrenia would be totally mental but in this case i think people are just falling to personality disorder level where they have problems to handle ambivalent emotions toward something and they start creating black/white US/THEY world. It can happen to everybody. But still i believe they can be cured somehow just like my everyday patients. I just dont know how to intervene when whole nation is affected.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 30, 2015, 05:07:26 pm
Quote from: KingBread on March 30, 2015, 04:26:05 pm
.... I just dont know how to intervene when whole nation is affected.

I got that problem too.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on March 30, 2015, 06:04:50 pm
Quote from: Tovi on March 30, 2015, 11:34:41 am
Even Russia sells coal and ammunitions to Ukraine... business is business. A bank or a company is not a state.


For the first time, I must admit that Ukraine did a good thing by kicking out Kolomoïsky.
Dave, do you still think he's a good guy ? ;)

Lel, what do you mean "still"? Have I ever even said a good word about him? I never thought he's a good guy. He helped Ukraine to survive and did well with handling situation in Dnipropetrovks, though he's an oligarch who did what he did to protect his money.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 31, 2015, 06:14:57 am
Quote from: Tovi on March 30, 2015, 11:34:41 am
Even Russia sells coal and ammunitions to Ukraine... business is business. A bank or a company is not a state.

China is not Russias friend. China really isnt anyones friend. Just because they dont like USA does not mean they are big friends with Russia. Thats just a stupid and wrong assumption by anti-westerners to make the anti-western opposition seem bigger and more united. In truth, there is no anti-west coalition. Probably never going to be either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on March 31, 2015, 06:49:39 am
inb4: "but muh BRICS"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 31, 2015, 07:56:31 am
Hahaha Christo, you know this threads inhabitants so well. :lol:

BRICS is actually another really hilarious case with anti-westerners. Its a coalition of merging economies. Its not even close to alliances like EU and NATO, which are frighteningly very bonding alliances. Even heavly restricting at some points. BRICS is 100% pure buisness, the countries in it have very little in common with eachother(including goals). Atleast half the founding countries in the BRICS arent anti-west, they are even partially pro-west. And yet somehow during arguments the anti-west idiots claim its somekind of very strong alliance that will one day bankrupt EU and destroy NATO.

Mybe an anti-west coalition will one day merge from BRICS, but it definately will not be BRICS.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on March 31, 2015, 06:36:54 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32114522

As one guy said... COMMENTS?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on March 31, 2015, 07:00:20 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on March 31, 2015, 06:36:54 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32114522

As one guy said... COMMENTS?  :rolleyes:

"On 9 February his unit managed to take control of a main road, cutting Ukrainian forces off from their hinterland. The rebels were unable to hold the road for long, Dmitry explained."

All responsible person in government and the military headquarters of Ukraine argue that boiler in debaltchevo never existed, and the road was always under their control. I believe them, so this article is fake and
author drug addict and alcoholic from DNR. It is a shame that you have believed him, shame on u.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on March 31, 2015, 07:03:34 pm
Quote from: Tibe on March 31, 2015, 07:56:31 am
Hahaha Christo, you know this threads inhabitants so well. :lol:

BRICS is actually another really hilarious case with anti-westerners. Its a coalition of merging economies. Its not even close to alliances like EU and NATO, which are frighteningly very bonding alliances. Even heavly restricting at some points. BRICS is 100% pure buisness, the countries in it have very little in common with eachother(including goals). Atleast half the founding countries in the BRICS arent anti-west, they are even partially pro-west. And yet somehow during arguments the anti-west idiots claim its somekind of very strong alliance that will one day bankrupt EU and destroy NATO.

Mybe an anti-west coalition will one day merge from BRICS, but it definately will not be BRICS.

The only part of BRICS which is definitely anti-OTAN is Russia, 150M people out of 3 billion people in BRICS countries. China has tensions with Japan, Korea and to a certain degree the US, but also huge commercial ties with the US. The only statistics where Russia actually matters in the world today is the number of nuclear warheads.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on March 31, 2015, 07:19:12 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 31, 2015, 07:03:34 pm
The only statistics where Russia actually matters in the world today is the number of nuclear warheads.
Exactly. So many people don't understand this -- Russia has nothing to threaten US with when it comes to conventional warfare. Neither does China. They don't have the ability to wage war on the US, while the US with its carriers has a thousand times better power projection capabilities than any country in the world - combined. Not to mention its ubiquitous military bases spread around the globe and powerful allies in every region.

China and Russia have very little, thus, to gain from allying against the West in a military fashion. First, they have nukes and until someone comes up with a fool proof way of blocking them, there's no real threat, so there's no need for an alliance. Second, modern warfare isn't about numbers and that's all these two countries would gain from such an union. Western training is also leaps and bounds above anything east of Europe, though Russia has been a sponge as of late after it realized how outdated its training regimes were, so they're improving slowly. Morale is still a big problem, as is the issue of funds. The number of conscripts is impressive, but relatively very few of them get any real trigger time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on March 31, 2015, 07:38:51 pm
What the fuck is up with Argentina lately? Are they still mad because of Fifa or something....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on March 31, 2015, 11:51:36 pm
They're just taking advantage of the UK starting to implode on itself and fading away as any sort of united military or cultural entity. Give it another 40, 50 years the UK will willingly give away the Malvinas, or sell them. Probably earlier.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on April 01, 2015, 12:33:29 am
hmm, the last time the uk was not so sure to keep the island at all costs ... and then a invasion has happened.
now it looks that argentina is too impatient, again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 01, 2015, 12:34:42 am
Quote from: Oberyn on March 31, 2015, 11:51:36 pm
They're just taking advantage of the UK starting to implode on itself and fading away as any sort of united military or cultural entity. Give it another 40, 50 years the UK will willingly give away the Malvinas, or sell them. Probably earlier.

The locals would like independence I think but they know the UK military presence on the island is what is keeping them from being annexed by Argentina, which would be a hell of a lot worse than the UK.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 01, 2015, 12:57:23 am
Quote from: Kafein on April 01, 2015, 12:34:42 am
The locals would like independence I think but they know the UK military presence on the island is what is keeping them from being annexed by Argentina, which would be a hell of a lot worse than the UK.

Ethnically the majority of the population are not argentinian at all, independance may be a more realistic goal, but they wouldn't stay independent long without some sort of guarantee from the UK.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 01, 2015, 02:17:34 am
just a lucky coincidence, but pictures what happens in Ukraine :)))

NATIONALISTS OF ANY COUNTRY SHOULD NOT OPEN THAT SPOILER! BEWARE!!
(click to show/hide)

PS: Viva la Ukraine! Viva la Mexico!! Viva la Afganistan!!! Oops thats not politically correct. Since moldova now is a little puppet of united stated (just like ukraine), and afganistan is a bad word for them, i think i will call it Afro-Afganistan to keep everyone happy. You see i'm already learning your laws  :mrgreen:

PSS: if you one of those people with small dick
who read everything seriously,
even small print like this,
then more information for you below:
THIS POST IS NOT VERY SERIOUS

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 01, 2015, 02:22:48 am
Well I always play as the nazis. Panzer general 1 best game ever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 01, 2015, 02:27:39 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 01, 2015, 02:22:48 am
Well I always play as the nazis. Panzer general 1 best game ever.

i'm sure you do :) i played for them before soviets released, that was not the point for post, read small print at the bottom of that post
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 01, 2015, 02:30:26 am
Dave being AZOV volunteer is not exactly news, ya know.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 01, 2015, 02:31:36 am
i can almost guarantee he will hide and run from recruitment waves to avoid action at all cost :)
but thats my opinion
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 01, 2015, 02:41:17 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


lol'd
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 01, 2015, 11:32:23 am
Quote from: Nebun on April 01, 2015, 02:17:34 am
just a lucky coincidence, but pictures what happens in Ukraine :)))

NATIONALISTS OF ANY COUNTRY SHOULD NOT OPEN THAT SPOILER! BEWARE!!
(click to show/hide)

PS: Viva la Ukraine! Viva la Mexico!! Viva la Afganistan!!! Oops thats not politically correct. Since moldova now is a little puppet of united stated (just like ukraine), and afganistan is a bad word for them, i think i will call it Afro-Afganistan to keep everyone happy. You see i'm already learning your laws  :mrgreen:

PSS: if you one of those people with small dick
who read everything seriously,
even small print like this,
then more information for you below:
THIS POST IS NOT VERY SERIOUS

Lol, I knew it was you. Wanted to say hello but the chat doesn't work :D I played for US for almost a year (Tovi!!!!), joined nаzis lately as their veterans massively went soviets in T patch and germans had no players :-( Are you new? Haven't seen you before.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 01, 2015, 07:58:54 pm
I played a while back when game was in early stages.
I haven't noticed how all the great generals joined USSR side. 95% of players on soviet side are worthless nubs, i just hope that in time they will think its easier to play for AXIS or USA and go there. THEY WASTE MY EQUIPMENT!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 01, 2015, 09:33:28 pm
God I love the commentsection in RT. Some of this shit is just genius. :mrgreen:

Quote
you ever heard the news reports, of the u.s. airforce spending 50 million on viagra??
they want their soldiers to go rape as many as possible is war zones..if they tell anyone then call in airstrike

I wonder what these US viagrapumpeddeathsquads are called. Im pretty sure they are quite distinctive and march with raging boners.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 01, 2015, 10:13:26 pm
And... the fucking Air Force?! Wat. Seriously. How are they going to go on rape sprees from the pilot seat, I wonder.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 01, 2015, 10:51:54 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 01, 2015, 10:13:26 pm
And... the fucking Air Force?! Wat. Seriously. How are they going to go on rape sprees from the pilot seat, I wonder.


Well, there is a reason why it's called a cock-pit  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 08:41:54 am
Doesnt airforce technically also include dudes with parachutes? I assume the US soldiers dont use parachutes, they land on their boners.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 02, 2015, 08:48:13 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 08:41:54 am
Doesnt airforce technically also include dudes with parachutes? I assume the US soldiers dont use parachutes, they land on their boners.

Takes 'raping foreign soil' to the next level
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 09:02:11 am
The insert semen in into the soil via boners after landing. Once they have left people might start to use that soil which is contaminated with american to grow crops. And when healthy females eat food made from those crops, they get pregnant with american children, who are violent by nature and have sudden urge to eat hamburgers and pump other peoples oil.

Wake up people!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2015, 09:11:11 am
Quote from: Christo on April 02, 2015, 08:48:13 am
Takes 'raping foreign soil' to the next level
works only with sand  :P in northern latitudes big risk traumatism  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2015, 09:12:11 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 09:02:11 am
(click to show/hide)
semen hit you in the brain
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 09:37:48 am
Says the one who hasnt even learned the basic forum rule of not double-posting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2015, 09:49:56 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 09:37:48 am
Says the one who hasnt even learned the basic forum rule of not double-posting.
U have selective knowledge the rules of the forum  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 10:03:04 am
Yeah and knowing that you should buy a trainticket to ride the train for instance is having selective knowledge of trainrules.

Vovka pls...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 02, 2015, 10:53:09 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 08:41:54 am
Doesnt airforce technically also include dudes with parachutes? I assume the US soldiers dont use parachutes, they land on their boners.
No, that's the Army airborne troops.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2015, 10:58:32 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 10:03:04 am
Yeah and knowing that you should buy a trainticket to ride the train for instance is having selective knowledge of trainrules.

Vovka pls...

Stick to the topic: before you respond to the last post made in a thread, check if you are adding to the original discussion.
No chatting. Use private messages if you want to talk to a specific user.

you deliberately violated two rules, only to tell me about my mistakes that I can not fix ^^
that's what I meant to say "about your electoral knowledge of the rules")) So let's stick to original discussion and talk about ukraine and mine shit-nation  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 11:14:56 am
My mistakes are ones that absolutely everyone do all the time. Doubleposting is quite simple to avoid and easy to remember. Only people new to the internet doublepost.

And I dont wanna talk about Ukraine and Eastern barbarianland anymore. We never really talked that much anyway. It was just random fact throwing and hatespeeches(in which I too took part of :D). Not like you really talked anyway. All your posts in this thread can be summarized with "ahuehuehue, you have never been to Russia thereby you dont know anything, I live here, thereby I know all about probably one of the largest nations on the planet".

Vuvka pls...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 02, 2015, 12:33:52 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 11:14:56 am
My mistakes are ones that absolutely everyone do all the time. Doubleposting is quite simple to avoid and easy to remember. Only people new to the internet doublepost.

And I dont wanna talk about Ukraine and Eastern barbarianland anymore. We never really talked that much anyway. It was just random fact throwing and hatespeeches(in which I too took part of :D). Not like you really talked anyway. All your posts in this thread can be summarized with "ahuehuehue, you have never been to Russia thereby you dont know anything, I live here, thereby I know all about probably one of the largest nations on the planet".

Vuvka pls...

 Uhue hu oll do it so and i will du, but u stupid vuvka dubleposting like a stupid uhuh
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 02, 2015, 09:15:07 pm
Tovi - toy like news re Ukr naztees? Well - here you go.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 03, 2015, 03:55:05 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 02, 2015, 09:15:07 pm
Tovi - toy like news re Ukr naztees? Well - here you go.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Kuujis the greate MythBusters  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 08:39:11 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 02, 2015, 11:14:56 am
My mistakes are ones that absolutely everyone do all the time. Doubleposting is quite simple to avoid and easy to remember. Only people new to the internet doublepost.

And I dont wanna talk about Ukraine and Eastern barbarianland anymore. We never really talked that much anyway. It was just random fact throwing and hatespeeches(in which I too took part of :D). Not like you really talked anyway. All your posts in this thread can be summarized with "ahuehuehue, you have never been to Russia thereby you dont know anything, I live here, thereby I know all about probably one of the largest nations on the planet".

Vuvka pls...

double standards, did you learn it from US government? You just soften 2 much bigger fuckups then double posting. :)) Because to me reading a lot of unrelated stupid shit is more of a problem then double posting.
you should be diplomat

as for main topic: when Ukrain will be in ruins, leveled to the ground and turned to steppes from a big distance you will be able to see american bases with their PRO defending democracy in Ukrain :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 03, 2015, 11:25:54 am
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 08:39:11 am
double standards, did you learn it from US government? You just soften 2 much bigger fuckups then double posting. :)) Because to me reading a lot of unrelated stupid shit is more of a problem then double posting.
you should be diplomat

as for main topic: when Ukrain will be in ruins, leveled to the ground and turned to steppes from a big distance you will be able to see american bases with their PRO defending democracy in Ukrain :)

Well, since you joined the discussion, your opinion might be interesting for those who are not just trolling here. As far as I know you were from Moldova and you had pro-Russian opinion (correct me if I'm wrong). What do you think about Transnistria (Pridnestrov'ye) situation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 01:31:49 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 03, 2015, 11:25:54 am
Well, since you joined the discussion, your opinion might be interesting for those who are not just trolling here. As far as I know you were from Moldova and you had pro-Russian opinion (correct me if I'm wrong). What do you think about Transnistria (Pridnestrov'ye) situation?

I feel a trap here!
It may seam pro-russian, but no, i'm anti Nationalist, anti US Government, anti Fascist. If there is anyone that will fuck US government up i'm happy for them. Doesn't matter if its russia, china or someone else. I do like Putin for his actions, mainly because he stopped USA from attacking Syria. And he kind of balanced. If someone would be softer then him then US would own all businesses and banks in russia again and keep country undeveloped forever. Or if there would be someone more agresive and stupid he would already took over Ukraine by force. Removing dollar from international trade is also fun. Moving gas pipe to turkey in response to restrictions from EU on building it in bulgaria is interesting move too. And many more. Looks like a lot of smart moves.

IF U ADEQUATE PERSON DON'T OPEN THE SPOILER!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on April 03, 2015, 02:00:03 pm
I think Dave will say that Bandera didn't kill polish, russian and belorussian people, because he was in german prison that time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 02:00:35 pm
I know almost jack shit about Moldova, please forgive my ignorance..

But it seems to me, that some people blame US/EU for their misery, while my impression is that it's not at all evil US/EU bankers that are to blame for many of the problems in former soviet bloc.

Of course, the economy took a major hit all over. Makes sense since communist economy was not market controlled.. so when the market stops demanding romanian or georgian wine, it collapses. (mild example there..) The solution is simple, get romanian/georgian wines up to competitive standard and bring it to market. Chile is exporting respected wines worldwide, so is california, and both are relatively new in the game. (And US wines used to have a laughable reputation..)

In the end, I think we can say that command economy is not sustainable. It's not black and white however, and I'm not some laissez faire capitalist. Many things might as well be owned by government, perhaps in unison with privates, as a check on sanity.

In RF and most of eastern bloc, it was the local politicians and corruption that did the most damage, not foreign corporations. In romania, corruption is still ridiculously high, where it seems to me almost all the politicians are super-corrupt. Recently read about Laura Codruta Kovesi catching the finance minister and his art-collection.. The story reminds me of some corrupt local politician. At the national level it's unbelievable. IMO the general, main problem with eastern bloc is/was corruption, and it can only be cleaned from the top down. No one will be uncorrupt with corrupt leaders.

Perhaps things took a shit turn for Moldova, but this is not at all true for all the eastern bloc countries. Most of the ones in EU are doing very well, while some are still struggling. My point is, EU cannot compensate for corrupt or idiotic national governments...
(Although they try, and it's mostly for the better, like enforcing basic checks and balances to organizations.)

About hating on nationalism, I'm 100% with you. Still worth lending some thought to its origins though. We are talking about countries recently out of occupation, dominance or servitude to RF. Countries searching for a new identity, even RF are almost always turning to nationalism. It's after all, the best way to blame all the problems on others, while supporting the idea that people should feel good about themselves. Bandera is pop in Ukraine because of RF dominance, nothing else.

TLDR: Consider putting the blame on local politics, before bashing the EU/US.. Capitalism sell anything at the price people are willing to pay, so it needs strong uncorrupt government to keep it in check. If you have high gas bills, the problem is probably a monopoly, or a dysfunctional market for whatever reason.


Edit:

And the point about attacks on russian speakers.. The problem is not them, its the fact that RF has a tendency to intervene and use them to control and fuck up local politics. I've never met anyone racists towards russian speakers or russians. Poles have it way worse when it comes to prejudice and jokes than the russians. :D (in the west)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 02:09:53 pm
Please don't open this spoiler if you're a typical Rus like Vovka, Nebun, Nicko etc... :)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 02:12:27 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 02:09:53 pm
Please don't open this spoiler if you're a typical Rus like Vovka, Nebun, Nicko etc... :)

(click to show/hide)

Lol I actually did that to myself last year.. was biking with a plastic bag with a brand new suction cup stick (edit: Plunger) thing for the bathroom. :D Genious idea.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 02:18:22 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 01:31:49 pm
I feel a trap here!
It may seam pro-russian, but no, i'm anti Nationalist, anti US Government, anti Fascist. If there is anyone that will fuck US government up i'm happy for them. Doesn't matter if its russia, china or someone else. I do like Putin for his actions, mainly because he stopped USA from attacking Syria. And he kind of balanced. If someone would be softer then him then US would own all businesses and banks in russia again and keep country undeveloped forever. Or if there would be someone more agresive and stupid he would already took over Ukraine by force. Removing dollar from international trade is also fun. Moving gas pipe to turkey in response to restrictions from EU on building it in bulgaria is interesting move too. And many more. Looks like a lot of smart moves.

About Syria however. Might have been a smart more yes, but it was also partially a very stupid move. I too was strongly against nato in Syria at first. Seemed like a very dumb move for the west to destory the syrian army and than have everyone do whatever they want with the entire country, unless nato stayed there to keep the peace for atleast 10 years. The big problem with Russia is that they didnt stop USA from attacking Syria, because they wanted best for the syrians. They stopped USA because it seemed it increased their popularity and Russia likes to fuck and disagree with US wherever they possibly can, even when it makes almost no sense.

Well they stopped USA from attacking Syria. GG Russia. However Syria is practically destroyed now, shitton of people dead and now we are dealing with one of the biggest refugeecrysis in the modern era. Im pretty sure letting US go in there would have saved a lot more of the country and people. Now theres nothing left of it. Russia should have atleast sent its own troops in there if they didnt allow anyone else to go, whatever the reason, they could have saved the situation too. Assad and everyone else there would have gladly accepted Russias help. Now that they stopped US they stopped talking to Syria entirely. Noone is coming to help. It was only a smart move for Russia. One country less where there are nato bases. Also a good move for NATO and West in some parts. Pretty sure the world would have blamed them for all of this if they were involved. Now they cant cause the country got destroyed without any of their involvement. Shit move for Syria. Country is pretty much gone, its now a homeplace of endless violence and anarchy.

I really even respected Putin and Russia at some degree when he told the West to fuck off from Syria. It seemed like a good move at the time. But now I kinda get the impression that US might have been right about this one. Syria will not recover from this atleast for 30 years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 02:30:06 pm
About Syria.. I think it would probably be IS now if US had gone in to bomb. The idea was idiotic, and Putin just took the chance to tell them. I think US government realized there were no alternatives to assad quite early, the problem was that they had already set the press on course, and that's a big ship to turn. They were, and still are, tied by press/public opinion, even though internally they are probably all for getting Assad back in place..

But this is another discussion for another thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 03:47:04 pm
If our ex government would defend itself, we would have same thing as in Ukraine, who to blame? stupid population? or those who become experts at making revolts in different countries?
I don't like politics of US, and their desire for bombing countries for resources. They just tooo good at creating reasons to mess with countries. I think they shouldn't get involved anywhere in the world and sit home.

About economics Tomek, u talking in general about how it was after soviet union collapsed. And i'm talking about affects of government changes.
Right after collapse it was shit, few stupid presidents and decline. At about 2000 we had normal president who kept neutrality and since then improved things greatly. He wasn't perfect but way better then anyone before. And now with new government shit again. I don't think that government placed by another country is interested in improving things.
We have some of the best wine here :)) Nobody going to let us sell it in europe and if there will be some market in future it will be hard to conquer. For moldova best course would be to trade with russia and develop over time. But EU products everywhere now :) Basically moldova isn't gaining anything.
On personal level i did gained romanian passport and since i don't work in moldova all this shit doesn't affect me. And i don't really care that much, politics mostly for fun :)
But how i see current picture is: if USA rapes 20 kids no one will notice, but if Russia slaps 1 everyone will go on about this for ages! :)

Tibe ur logic just insane to me. Maybe after USA invade all countries in middle east u would change ur opinion. Or they will tell u that they saving people and u will be fine with it.

If russia will use same politics as USA and start attacking countries one after another in europe for example, i will be against Russia then. Ukraine doesn't count!!!! We've been in same situation when prednestrovie rise in Moldova. And if conflict would go to the next level I'm sure half of the population would want protection and help from Russians.
If Ukraine wanted to shift in EU way, they could have done it million times softer. I guess their masters need war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 04:00:23 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 03:47:04 pm
If our ex government would defend itself, we would have same thing as in Ukraine, who to blame? stupid population? or those who become experts at making revolts in different countries?

I don't think Ukraine needed EU/US to make a revolt. Yanukovic, his predecessors, it's politicians, and Russian meddling created that problem by alone. I don't understand why people think UKR think US created it. Ukraine was steered to shits, with ultra corrupt, thief president.

What would you do if your country was lead like Ukraine?

What if Russia was steered by a corrupt thief puppet like Yanukovic? And Ukraine media actively supporting him?

To hell I would have gone to the streets. Don't need no EU/US for that. All they did was showing support. I think much more important for UKR population was they saw Poland doing much much better than them. Real ez choice then. They just want a better life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 04:21:21 pm
Poland always did much better then Ukraine :) And for then next 50 years or so it will still be the case.

Corruption didn't go anywhere, u have strange understanding of corruption and thinking that changing leader will make it go away. Its not leaders its population who attracted to it. No matter how many leaders changed here we all still corrupt :)) and it isn't going away. It slowly wears off but at same rate as always.
Then if our president gets paid by US, then he is corrupt too :)
Its mentality of population and local economy that need to change and its a very slow process. When ur salary is not enough to survive and its not a scary thing here to get bribes u will take them. And since everything gone worse corruption increase.

Your view is the same as i hear in the west. Good for me I don't watch any news. Yanukovic also wanted to go to EU then changed his mind. Our ex president sort of wanted and to go to EU and to trade with Russia at the same time and sort of stuck between this 2. There was open discussions on how it will kill economy that isn't strong anyway. Maybe Yanukovic thought the same, or maybe Russia offered him more cash then EU :))

The funny thing is though is that why US sending ppl to do revolt not EU. We sort of all joining EU but US making revolts :)))

And i could understand revolt against shit president, i don't know how he really was, to me all presidents in Ukraine was shit :) But is new one better? looks the same to me just looking towards west.
lets assume Russia was meddling in Ukraine, but US was too and EU :) US on the other continent what the fuck.... why they are here :)) if they want to mess with someone they have mexica and cuba.

PS: people too lazy to make revolts unless its too horrible. they only work if organised well... now country in 10 bigger shit then before, where is new revolt against new president?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 04:26:13 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 04:00:23 pm
I don't think Ukraine needed EU/US to make a revolt. Yanukovic, his predecessors, it's politicians, and Russian meddling created that problem by alone. I don't understand why people think UKR think US created it. Ukraine was steered to shits, with ultra corrupt, thief president.

What would you do if your country was lead like Ukraine?

What if Russia was steered by a corrupt thief puppet like Yanukovic? And Ukraine media actively supporting him?

To hell I would have gone to the streets. Don't need no EU/US for that. All they did was showing support. I think much more important for UKR population was they saw Poland doing much much better than them. Real ez choice then. They just want a better life.
also for example, soon moldova will probably become part of romania, or their state, and no one will ask me or my friend or other ppl who live here if we want it or not :) it will just happen. And no one will go to revolt even if they don't agree, we are very peaceful country. Only their side can provide maniacs to do shit like this :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 04:31:09 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 03:47:04 pm

Tibe ur logic just insane to me. Maybe after USA invade all countries in middle east u would change ur opinion. Or they will tell u that they saving people and u will be fine with it.

If russia will use same politics as USA and start attacking countries one after another in europe for example, i will be against Russia then. Ukraine doesn't count!!!! We've been in same situation when prednestrovie rise in Moldova. And if conflict would go to the next level I'm sure half of the population would want protection and help from Russians.
If Ukraine wanted to shift in EU way, they could have done it million times softer. I guess their masters need war.

You do realise a lot of genocides could be avoided with proper world policing right? And USA doesnt have to invade all countries in the middle east. A lot of countries there dont have beef with US. Refugees are a real problem to economy. What happens if lets say for example Serbia starts having rebels and gets turned into warzone? And while everyone just does the typical politics, including your country, millions of poor people from there with no home will swarm in into your country and other countries nearby. You are poor already, imagine what would happen if those people just escalated all those social problems you already have.

This is the issue with you "everyone should deal with their own problem" types. You dont really get that heavy shit thats going on Syria is affecting all countries nearby aswell. Im not saying that US should have gone in Syria. Im saying someone...anyone, should have. Russia, China, Japan, North Korea, I dont give a crap. Everyones just meh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 04:37:45 pm
people just want better life, the rest is irrelevant. there is no simple path, but the fastest way to get it is to join with eu.

in ukrainian case its better than to be left alone and being slowly eaten by own oligarchs. and its way better than to side with russian dictatorship/kleptocracy that offers neither prosperity nor civil rights, where the only thing matters is if you suck putlers dick.

its just logical that nobody (except some retarded countries in central asia ruled by dictators) sides with russia, because russia has really nothing to offer, in fact it offers no perspective at all. if siding with russia was such a win win scenario, why would everyone on your borders try to get isolated from you as much as possible.

you either open your eyes realizing your country is utter shitte, that you wasted decades after revolution to make it better and you're to blame or you just stay asleep and keep blaming jews, amuricans, einsteinjungend or whoever else. or i think just do what you want, not that anybody really cares that much...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 04:55:41 pm
so much stupid bullshit :)))))

yes i'm sure ukraine will have much better life from now on... just like they wanted
In moldova we have the same, it changed the next second after president changed. Now we sooo happy. We can visit u in finland tomek, tho we don't have any money to do so. We will send u corps of our pensioners. Tho again we don't have any money for that too.

we wanted better life too :) it gone to shit
siding with eu is not correct term, we simply given our country to external owner thats all that happened
i'm not patriot in any way so i don't really give a fuck :) but this is the reality

and i've seen how in EU news they say "they just want a better life"
its such a dirty trick :))) "You will join EU and travel anywhere u want without visa!" yeah sounds like its worth to kill a lot of people.

By the way fighting one oligarch and then replace it with another doesn't look to me like fighting oligarhcy. It looks more like going in circles.

And all of u have such a western look at the situation. Any of u at all look at possibility of US/EU governments being shithead cunts? I usually don't name EU because they passive and just to what they told.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 03, 2015, 05:03:09 pm
Well, there are countries, like Thomek said, successfully joining the EU and there those which don't.
Did it every occur to you that it's at least partly your own fault?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 05:04:31 pm
in general i'd say majority of governments (in the case of usa - especially in last two decades for sure), in the case of some eu countries as well, are really cunts. the point though is they're way smaller cunts than governments/dictator in russia. they're also a bit smaller cunts than our cunt government. for as much as i can do i try to be my own "government", i work for myself only as a freelancer, i try to avoid any state programs aka social insurance as much as i'm allowed to etc. but in some cases one has to decide which cunts he wants to side with and i vote for the smaller usa/eu cunt :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 05:09:26 pm
I havent heard a lot about Moldova, but what I have heard is that they are incredibly butthurt about pointless shit, kinda like Macedonia these days. Not really sure if its true. I suggest not really bothering to argue with him.

I dont really understand your hate towards EU. My country used to be an utter shithole with violence and everything. Joined EU we had money to build schools, bridges, roads, kindergardens and everything. Country looks pretty fine now. I dont know what fucking "obeying to master" EUthing you are talking about? We still have our country, flag, language, we can do whatever the hell we please. Streets are safe and people have jobs and social security. And if you claim its an illusion, id like you to tell me how exactly? Our leaders arent bounded to central leadership of Berlin or Washington. We have total liberty. I seriuslly think, your country just looks for reasons why it has failed so horribly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 05:20:56 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 05:04:31 pm
in general i'd say majority of governments (in the case of usa - especially in last two decades for sure), in the case of some eu countries as well, are really cunts. the point though is they're way smaller cunts than governments/dictator in russia. they're also a bit smaller cunts than our cunt government. for as much as i can do i try to be my own "government", i work for myself only as a freelancer, i try to avoid any state programs aka social insurance as much as i'm allowed to etc. but in some cases one has to decide which cunts he wants to side with and i vote for the smaller usa/eu cunt :)

I think think other way around. US biggest cunt, it involved in more conflicts then anyone else.

About countries that joined EU, they got their things to a good level before joining EU not after :) And almost all countries that joined EU suffered economically in one way or another.
Italy, Spain, Greece, Litva, Latvia, Romania - i can't say about other countries because not sure. But anyway before joining EU those countries was fine so don't make it like its EUs doing.

Molly, i agree its all our fault that we allowed for it to happen and against logics of economy chose another path. Now we in decline again and with new depts and not sure for how long it will go on.
Yes its our fault we should have kicked that cunt president of ours out and stop all diplomacy with US and return our ex president or find new one who is interested in developing country. We have no trade with US and never had, we do we even need to communicate with them then. But now someone from Washington always coming to visit us.
But i can also blame those who organising revolts. Everything was going fine, why did we change to worse? :)
We could have left it the way it was, and there wouldn't be any reason to blame anyone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 05:26:24 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 05:09:26 pm
I havent heard a lot about Moldova, but what I have heard is that they are incredibly butthurt about pointless shit, kinda like Macedonia these days. Not really sure if its true. I suggest not really bothering to argue with him.

I dont really understand your hate towards EU. My country used to be an utter shithole with violence and everything. Joined EU we had money to build schools, bridges, roads, kindergardens and everything. Country looks pretty fine now. I dont know what fucking "obeying to master" EUthing you are talking about? We still have our country, flag, language, we can do whatever the hell we please. Streets are safe and people have jobs and social security. And if you claim its an illusion, id like you to tell me how exactly? Our leaders arent bounded to central leadership of Berlin or Washington. We have total liberty. I seriuslly think, your country just looks for reasons why it has failed so horribly.

I don't hate anyone :) I just dislike some governments and movements. What country you from?
Its just natural progression. Its safe here too. U think if u didn't join EU it would be worse?

Also before we paid for gas -4-5 x times less, as friendly nation to Russia, now we pay as europe but we can't cope to pay as europe :))
We could blame Russia for selling us everything at regular prices now, but what can u expect if we told them to fuck off. In their place i would do the same.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 05:32:44 pm
hmm you either see where and why can people have happier life or you don't, just live according to your beliefs nebun...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 05:34:13 pm
Actually Latvia, Lithuania and Romania got richer by joining EU. Get your facts straight.

Italy, Spain and Greece were technically the only ones that got poorer, from all their members.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 05:42:20 pm
Quick! Discuss before Xant and tovi comes to ruin it!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 05:43:41 pm
really when? :)))) there was big interview of romanian businesses and development and it sounded opposite. they like freedom of going anywhere they want, thats true, but pay vs spend is worse then before.

just for u to relax found something funny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-_M8Qs4pl0

Beauchamp do u think that joining EU will make all countries like Germany? Usually they stay same as was with small progress, and sometimes fail. Like southern eu countries. Because they have to adjust instead of going their own way. Its all down to population and their mentality. Germany would recover fast even if u level it and burn everything :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 05:45:25 pm
I think its better for me to leave this topic :) nobody will ever change their minds, and who cares anyway
i only came here to make few jokes and leave and end up debating
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 03, 2015, 05:58:55 pm
Yep, Nebun just wanted to write you to stop arguing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:00:00 pm
heh some more from ur own :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgLby3Beb0

its a matter of view i know, but if u apply some logic, part of propaganda may fall apart
good that i don't watch news, or i'd be soooo involved here :)))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 06:03:24 pm
Well seems you are of the opinion that some countries are simply doomed to be shit, because of the people living there and their culture and attitudes..

Could be true lol :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:07:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 03, 2015, 05:58:55 pm
Yep, Nebun just wanted to write you to stop arguing.

U CANT SHUT ME UP!!!! WHO ARE U!!!???? WHO RRR UUUU!??? CIA SENT U?

well anyway i stepped on my cats paw today by accident, and well its putins fault!!!?? ... hm that feels good, i can get use to that... i've also seen putin shooting helicopter of red cross with handgun, yes seen it with my own eyes...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:08:02 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 06:03:24 pm
Well seems you are of the opinion that some countries are simply doomed to be shit, because of the people living there and their culture and attitudes..

Could be true lol :D

not purely doomed, more like changes take a lot of time, and usually when population changes slowly things change with it as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:10:06 pm
for example in 90s everyone here was beating shit out of each other, but now its so peaceful, ppl changed a bit, but same was in Ukraine and Russia :) and they all changed a little, unless there is a mental hell party which everyone wants to join like in UKR :) to remember good all days
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 06:19:27 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 05:43:41 pm
Beauchamp do u think that joining EU will make all countries like Germany? Usually they stay same as was with small progress, and sometimes fail. Like southern eu countries. Because they have to adjust instead of going their own way. Its all down to population and their mentality. Germany would recover fast even if u level it and burn everything :)

Tell it to eastern Germans and their 40 years long prosperity under the Soviet rule... You need both for prosperity, "national mentality" and "good regime" at the same time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 06:19:43 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:25:43 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 06:19:27 pm
Tell it to eastern Germans and their 40 years long prosperity under the Soviet rule... You need both for prosperity, "national mentality" and "good regime" at the same time.

They was part of another country back then, all was the same in soviet union. Or almost the same. So this is doesn't count. I meant free environment.
As i said before i don't like communism at all. Thought fascism or chocolate chip cookie for me million times worse. I prefer democracy, even tho its more just a word but most of the time u can do what u want. Tho i think counties/regions controlled by same people, and presidency is just a show. Like in USA there was 2 candidates, one for peace and one for war. They chosen the one for peace, and what changed? nothing even more wars and involvement in business of other countries then before. So it really doesn't matter who u vote for if all candidates belong to same people in control. If i would want to keep control in my hands i would do that, put all of my candidates and sponsor them all, doesn't matter who wins.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 03, 2015, 06:37:22 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 05:20:56 pm
I think think other way around. US biggest cunt, it involved in more conflicts then anyone else.
You must think police officers are even bigger cunts, then, because they're "involved in a lot of conflicts."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 06:46:06 pm
it just proves my point, being part of a different econonmical/political space plays a huge role in possible prosperity even for regular people. and thats the main reason why some people want to join different spheres of influence (aka ukraine).

if greeks want to go full commies retard (and they will sooner or later) they're free to do so to leave eu, join up with russia (though i doubt russians would have enough money to embrace them :D), i won't delay them one single bit. and when they become 10 times poorer than your moldova, i gonna buy there a small village on kyklades for myself and my friends and panos (if he survives the civil war) will be my gardener.

koreans were 70 years ago one nation, one part "decided" to follow soviet union/commies sphere of influence, now their GNP is almost 100 times smaller than of their southern neighbour. and you won't believe this nebun, but there are actually people in north korea, that believe their country rocks and usa is the biggest satan in the univers. and imagine similar people can be found even in russia and maybe even in moldova :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:46:56 pm
nice twist but no :) well only if its USA police officers come to my country to arrest me according to their laws then yes :)) otherwise no

actually i was very sorry for our police when they wasn't defending themselves, so many of them go to hospital, there was like rain of stones
i'm for equality on this, if someone thinks that he has a right to throw a rock at u then i think u have a right to smash his head in with a club :) all simple
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:49:42 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 06:46:06 pm
it just proves my point, being part of a different econonmical/political space plays a huge role in possible prosperity even for regular people. and thats the main reason why some people want to join different spheres of influence (aka ukraine).

if greeks want to go full commies retard (and they will sooner or later) they're free to do so to leave eu, join up with russia (though i doubt russians would have enough money to embrace them :D), i won't delay them one single bit. and when they become 10 times poorer than your moldova, i gonna buy there a small village on kyklades for myself and my friends and panos (if he survives the civil war) will be my gardener.

koreans were 70 years ago one nation, one part "decided" to follow soviet union/commies sphere of influence, now their GNP is almost 100 times smaller than of their southern neighbour. and you won't believe this nebun, but there are actually people in north korea, that believe their country rocks and usa is the biggest satan in the univers. and imagine similar people can be found even in russia and maybe even in moldova :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

no i don't see how any of this proves ur point, since there is a huge difference between being communist country and democratic country who doesn't join any alliance, so u basically compared communist country to a country inside EU, which is not correct. Since we are all now democratic countries. The only difference is with who allied or neutral.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 07:16:15 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlX_yQ-WGfg

never expected this on FOX News :))
youtube is disease, i need to be freed from it... I need help from Obama
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 03, 2015, 08:12:10 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:46:56 pm
nice twist but no :) well only if its USA police officers come to my country to arrest me according to their laws then yes :)) otherwise no

actually i was very sorry for our police when they wasn't defending themselves, so many of them go to hospital, there was like rain of stones
i'm for equality on this, if someone thinks that he has a right to throw a rock at u then i think u have a right to smash his head in with a club :) all simple
OK, so you don't think about it logically. Gotcha.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 03, 2015, 08:13:46 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on April 03, 2015, 06:46:06 pm
koreans were 70 years ago one nation, one part "decided" to follow soviet union/commies sphere of influence, now their GNP is almost 100 times smaller than of their southern neighbour. and you won't believe this nebun, but there are actually people in north korea, that believe their country rocks and usa is the biggest satan in the univers. and imagine similar people can be found even in russia and maybe even in moldova :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Korea case is even more fucked up because initially the north was way stronger and industrialized than the south, the DPRK could have wiped the floor with them easily. (if we put foreign intervention aside, of course.)

Well, how much have things changed since then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 08:45:57 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 03, 2015, 08:12:10 pm
OK, so you don't think about it logically. Gotcha.

I'm afraid to ask about your logic :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on April 03, 2015, 09:04:36 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:25:43 pm
presidency is just a show. Like in USA there was 2 candidates, one for peace and one for war. They chosen the one for peace, and what changed? nothing even more wars and involvement in business of other countries then before.

not sure what election you watched, nor where you have been for the past 15 years, but you're full of shit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 03, 2015, 09:04:44 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 08:45:57 pm
I'm afraid to ask about your logic :)
The amount of conflict someone or something is involved in doesn't automatically make them bad or worse than someone involved in less conflict but a lot more morally questionable conflict (f.ex Russia with Ukraine). Most people are also very happy about the fact that US plays world police -- they fuck up, yes, but over all it does more good than evil to have someone like them willing and able to interfere in Bad Things. The American public would never allow anything like the Ukraine conflict (that is to say, replacing the US with Russia, and US attacking Ukraine). Do you think Canada fears an invasion from the US? Which neighboring country of Russia doesn't treat them like one would treat an unpredictable madman?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 09:24:24 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on April 03, 2015, 09:04:36 pm
not sure what election you watched, nor where you have been for the past 15 years, but you're full of shit.

Ye, that was a very odd statement. I thought the last US presidency election was between a white rich asshole and the balanced black guy. Dont recall any war and peace thing evolved. His just your typical eastern-european: "Stop generalizing my country based on stereotypes built by the Western media! But I still want to generalize your country and the rest of the West based on stereotypes built by Eastern media."

....eehh. I quess both have some degree of saying in this. :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 09:36:20 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 03, 2015, 09:04:44 pm
The amount of conflict someone or something is involved in doesn't automatically make them bad or worse than someone involved in less conflict but a lot more morally questionable conflict (f.ex Russia with Ukraine). Most people are also very happy about the fact that US plays world police -- they fuck up, yes, but over all it does more good than evil to have someone like them willing and able to interfere in Bad Things. The American public would never allow anything like the Ukraine conflict (that is to say, replacing the US with Russia, and US attacking Ukraine). Do you think Canada fears an invasion from the US? Which neighboring country of Russia doesn't treat them like one would treat an unpredictable madman?
Does Canada need to be afraid? those who obey don't have to be punished.
I guess you think that roses grow in all of the places US visit? Iraq, Libya, Egypt(causing problems), Afganistan? Support of Syrian rebels, those that they was fighting recently in afganistan?
Can you tell me who are those people and from which countries are happy for US to be universal police? Maybe only those that they don't attack?

Hm and lets compare two situations here. One: where lets say russian government and population supports rebels in Ukraine because mainly Radical Nationalists killing russian speaking population. So they sort of helping their own.
Another: US/Eu was helping by supplying Syrian rebels with mercs and weapons? Any EU or NA citizens was in danger?
I understand the feelings of ppl who annoyed when their own being killed in a neighboring country. Because i've been through this in my country.
Wtf do u know about this situation Xant? What would u do if in country next to you they would be killing people of ur nationality, maybe some of ur relatives?

And again what was there about America to never attack country like ukraine? And why u say attack? when Obama supports separatists who BLOW UP FUCKING BUILDINGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, shops etc. where civilians die - they don't call it attack, they just supplying FREEEDOM fighters with weapons. And in case of Russian - Ukraine u say attack? Have i missed something or Russia decleared war on Ukraine rolled into Kiev? And by the way, i don't remember anything about rebels in ukraine who blow up public places in Kiev to kill civilians.
Double standards. U create EVIL creature in the minds of people and then u go fight it and people will follow because they believe this stupid shit. By the way which part of the country in ruins in Ukraine? Where people left without pensions? make a guess east or west?

Maybe next time when one side wins election in US lets say Democrats, they will kill all Republicans and everyone else who oppose them. That would be for me something similar to situation in Ukraine, only difference is conflict of nations and not ruling parties.

EAT THAT :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 03, 2015, 09:39:47 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 05:20:56 pm
<...bukkake...>
About countries that joined EU, they got their things to a good level before joining EU not after :) And almost all countries that joined EU suffered economically in one way or another.
Italy, Spain, Greece, Litva, Latvia, Romania - i can't say about other countries because not sure. But anyway before joining EU those countries was fine so don't make it like its EUs doing.
<...bukkake...>
How about fucking no? EU, along with its rules and requirements brought MUCH good practice on combating the same bane mentioned over and over again.

Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 06:49:42 pm
no i don't see how any of this proves ur point, since there is a huge difference between being communist country and democratic country who doesn't join any alliance, so u basically compared communist country to a country inside EU, which is not correct. Since we are all now democratic countries. The only difference is with who allied or neutral.
Those neighbors of russia who did not manage to join the alliane are now fucked or in the line to be fucked, because  sooner or later their and russias interests will go along different roads. At which point russia will go "qq, usa bad, leading my provinces away, save russians" (TOTALLY  not what naztees did and completely unrelated to nationalism ofc) and BAM - Belarus is Ukraine V2.0. Then Kazachstan, which according to russias officials is not a country at all, unless friendly dictator is in power.

Count neutral states in Europe with a border with russia. How many of them were fucked by russia since fall of cccp? My and my countries experience is that in the west you fuck each other, sometimes its bondage, but mostly its just sex. With russia - its always rape. I see no point in looking at it as an imaginary alternative.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 09:41:49 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 09:36:20 pm
Does Canada need to be afraid? those who obey don't have to be punished.
I guess you think that roses grow in all of the places US visit? Iraq, Libya, Egypt(causing problems), Afganistan? Support of Syrian rebels, those that they was fighting recently in afganistan?
Can you tell me who are those people and from which countries are happy for US to be universal police? Maybe only those that they don't attack?

Hm and lets compare two situations here. One: where lets say russian government and population supports rebels in Ukraine because mainly Radical Nationalists killing russian speaking population. So they sort of helping their own.
Another: US/Eu was helping by supplying Syrian rebels with mercs and weapons? Any EU or NA citizens was in danger?
I understand the feelings of ppl who annoyed when their own being killed in a neighboring country. Because i've been through this in my country.
Wtf do u know about this situation Xant? What would u do if in country next to you they would be killing people of ur nationality, maybe some of ur relatives?

And again what was there about America to never attack country like ukraine? And why u say attack? when Obama supports separatists who BLOW UP FUCKING BUILDINGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, shops etc. where civilians die - they don't call it attack, they just supplying FREEEDOM fighters with weapons. And in case of Russian - Ukraine u say attack? Have i missed something or Russia decleared war on Ukraine rolled into Kiev? And by the way, i don't remember anything about rebels in ukraine who blow up public places in Kiev to kill civilians.
Double standards. U create EVIL creature in the minds of people and then u go fight it and people will follow because they believe this stupid shit. By the way which part of the country in ruins in Ukraine? Where people left without pensions? make a guess east or west?

Maybe next time when one side wins election in US lets say Democrats, they will kill all Republicans and everyone else who oppose them. That would be for me something similar to situation in Ukraine, only difference is conflict of nations and not ruling parties.

EAT THAT :)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 09:50:12 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 09:24:24 pm
Ye, that was a very odd statement. I thought the last US presidency election was between a white rich asshole and the balanced black guy. Dont recall any war and peace thing evolved. His just your typical eastern-european: "Stop generalizing my country based on stereotypes built by the Western media! But I still want to generalize your country and the rest of the West based on stereotypes built by Eastern media."

....eehh. I quess both have some degree of saying in this. :?

i don't watch media, except for fun parts on youtube :) everyone lies and exaggerates
I guess u didn't understand me about presidency. When bush was in charge - wars begun. Then lets keep it simple: 2 candidates run for presidency, white - for war, and black for peace. Then black guy wins, recieves award for peace and continues his wars and so eager to start a new one with syria that his balls hurt from tension. He also wanted to fuck with Iran, but they had to powerful friends.
THE POINT: It doesn't matter who u choose - political course doesn't change! Or you forgot that Obama was against wars(maybe partly people chose him for this? it seams kind of important)? Maybe there was final words at the end of his speech that nobody hear'd "... after we take control of all countries with natural resources"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 10:07:33 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 03, 2015, 09:39:47 pm
How about fucking no? EU, along with its rules and requirements brought MUCH good practice on combating the same bane mentioned over and over again.
Those neighbors of russia who did not manage to join the alliane are now fucked or in the line to be fucked, because  sooner or later their and russias interests will go along different roads. At which point russia will go "qq, usa bad, leading my provinces away, save russians" (TOTALLY  not what naztees did and completely unrelated to nationalism ofc) and BAM - Belarus is Ukraine V2.0. Then Kazachstan, which according to russias officials is not a country at all, unless friendly dictator is in power.

Count neutral states in Europe with a border with russia. How many of them were fucked by russia since fall of cccp? My and my countries experience is that in the west you fuck each other, sometimes its bondage, but mostly its just sex. With russia - its always rape. I see no point in looking at it as an imaginary alternative.
going back to CCCP again, we was last to leave thats why fucked :))) didn't have enough time to build up
since when Kazahstan or belarus is ur fucking problem?
Belarus moldova and ukraine was on similar level. Just they had resources and we didn't.
As i said already no country joining EU become amazing like all others. They simply develop in their own natural way. Would it be the same without EU or not hard to tell.
You need to dive into numbers.
We had all our export and market in russia, they took anything we was willing to sell. It was making our budget.
And they also wanted us in free trade zone. Ofcourse its their interest to keep influence over us but it also our interest for economy. Now we have western influence and no economy.
We also had dirt cheap resources 4-5 cheaper then EU pays.
In europe nobody wants our trinkets ((
We have only internal trade and products from europe.

Similar situations for Ukraine and Belarus. Cmon make some constructive suggestion on how we could benefit from EU?
And please without those - "You have to try harder", "You have to make better things"
it takes money that we don't have, and time and practice to make better things - and i'm sure we have amazing Wine best i've had, English Queen drinks Negru De Purcari - our wine. But nobody will let us sell it in EU because it conflicts with ineterests of out countries producing wine

PS: EAT THAT
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 10:13:37 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 09:50:12 pm
... "... after we take control of all countries with natural resources"

Eeehh...Nebun. You do realise USA has sofar only invaded 2 countries in the modern era, right? And the war on Iraq was kinda even supported by arabs themselves btw. All those other overthrowingstories are just stories, we dont know actual facts, so they dont count. You make it sound like they invaded 100 countries.

And the presidents didnt start the wars. That not how this works. USA is not Russia. The president cant do shit. And the people didnt choose Obama because peace, they chose him because Romney was basically a rich fucktard who wanted to fuck the poor even harder for the sake of increasing the economy. Pretty sure they didnt even want Obama, but Romney was just worse. This "war and peace presidency" shit is completely retarded and mainly only in your head.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 10:27:55 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 03, 2015, 10:13:37 pm
Eeehh...Nebun. You do realise USA has sofar only invaded 2 countries in the modern era, right? And the war on Iraq was kinda even supported by arabs themselves btw. All those other overthrowingstories are just stories, we dont know actual facts, so they dont count. You make it sound like they invaded 100 countries.

And the presidents didnt start the wars. That not how this works. USA is not Russia. The president cant do shit. And the people didnt choose Obama because peace, they chose him because Romney was basically a rich fucktard who wanted to fuck the poor even harder for the sake of increasing the economy. Pretty sure they didnt even want Obama, but Romney was just worse. This "war and peace presidency" shit is completely retarded and mainly only in your head.

reallyyyyy :)) then i live on a different planet, Obama ordered support and bombings in Libya without congress approval or support. And he wanted to do same in Syria. I guess changed hist mind. Afganistan and Iraq? Well compare it to russian quests :)))
Ah yes, sure everything russia does its bad, while everything that west does can be explained.
Well then explain me why US got involved in my country and changed government?
Its not a thought or opinion, its a fact of which many ppl know. And know who did it and how did it, and story of the life of the guy who was sent to do it.
Its simply fight for territory and influence.

Do u know how I can guess if our government still ours or not. If it wants to make business with everyone and upsets russia and eu with some of their actions :)) i can be sure its ours. If it agrees to everything west says and does, then its URS :))

PS: I WILL TIRE U WITH MY WALLS OF TEXT UNTIL U GIVE UP
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 03, 2015, 10:30:16 pm
It's time for the Kitty History lesson, lads.
#relevant

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 10:35:09 pm
First of all, thanks for contributing Nebun. :) And Kujiis don't chase everyone away with your kneejerk reactions. He actually brings a more moderate perspective to this debate.. Also macro, feel free to chip in, im just curious.

I'm not gonna go out excusing the US. They have made plenty of retarded decisions repeatedly. Like ousting middle east dictators.. By know they should have learned those dictators are the only thing holding it together, like it or not. But damage done..

Point is that it doesn't excuse RF actions. Besides, because I'm a racist, it's 10 times worse when it happens in Europe. You can't make the fanatics in the middle east suddenly stop being fanatics.. What happens in Ukraine is especially pointless.

I'm willing to give a lot of credit to Putin. Economical growth: check, relative stability: check, law and order: check?
I'm willing to admit that perhaps RF is not ready for democracy. That the country simply needs a strong leader/dictator for a while longer. If just to keep the behemoth of a country together.

I'm sure even the west likes to have him there, considering an alternative leader would be risking RF internal chaos, and nobody wants that.

Just don't excuse his politics regarding Ukraine. I honestly don't see what the problem is with an EU/Nato aligned Ukraine? Like Bush went on to attack Iraq and Afghanistan for internal reasons (revenge), I think Putin did the same. He did it so Ukraine can never humiliate RF by having a decent economy and life. So RF wouldn't look so alone in the world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 03, 2015, 10:43:37 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 09:36:20 pm
Does Canada need to be afraid? those who obey don't have to be punished.
Canada doesn't need to be afraid. I don't know how your obedience comment is related.


Quote
I guess you think that roses grow in all of the places US visit? Iraq, Libya, Egypt(causing problems), Afganistan?
Did roses grow there before US visited? Nope. Shit holes way before the US ever laid its eyes on those countries.

Quote
Support of Syrian rebels, those that they was fighting recently in afganistan?
Yes, life isn't a Disney tale and the US isn't ruled by a dictator like Russia.

Quote
Can you tell me who are those people and from which countries are happy for US to be universal police? Maybe only those that they don't attack?
Most of the world that hasn't been brainwashed by moronic Russian propaganda.

Quote
Hm and lets compare two situations here. One: where lets say russian government and population supports rebels in Ukraine because mainly Radical Nationalists killing russian speaking population. So they sort of helping their own.
Another: US/Eu was helping by supplying Syrian rebels with mercs and weapons? Any EU or NA citizens was in danger?
I understand the feelings of ppl who annoyed when their own being killed in a neighboring country. Because i've been through this in my country.
Wtf do u know about this situation Xant? What would u do if in country next to you they would be killing people of ur nationality, maybe some of ur relatives?
Even trying to draw a correlation between the situation in Syria and Russia invading Ukraine is retarded.

What would I do? Nothing, because I'm not a retarded brainwashed "patriot." Anyone of "Russian nationality" in Ukraine could have just moved back to Russia then. No one forces them to remain in Ukraine, especially if they self-identify as fucking Russians...

Quote
And again what was there about America to never attack country like ukraine? And why u say attack? when Obama supports separatists who BLOW UP FUCKING BUILDINGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, shops etc. where civilians die - they don't call it attack, they just supplying FREEEDOM fighters with weapons. And in case of Russian - Ukraine u say attack? Have i missed something or Russia decleared war on Ukraine rolled into Kiev? And by the way, i don't remember anything about rebels in ukraine who blow up public places in Kiev to kill civilians.
:lol:

Seriously, are 99.99% of Russians truly retarded? No wonder Putin can rule them so effectively. Even when he pisses on his people, he just needs to tell them it's raining and they believe him. Even if it was proven that he pissed on them before, this time, surely, it's rain. Because Putler said so.

Quote
Double standards. U create EVIL creature in the minds of people and then u go fight it and people will follow because they believe this stupid shit. By the way which part of the country in ruins in Ukraine? Where people left without pensions? make a guess east or west?
Uh... east? Because Russia invaded from the east?

Quote
Maybe next time when one side wins election in US lets say Democrats, they will kill all Republicans and everyone else who oppose them. That would be for me something similar to situation in Ukraine, only difference is conflict of nations and not ruling parties.
Maybe next time build your straw man a bit better, there's hay bursting out from all the seams.

Quote
EAT THAT :)
Eat more very classic Russianism? Sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 03, 2015, 10:55:32 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 10:35:09 pm
Also macro, feel free to chip in, im just curious.
I better not, don't wanna expose my complete ignorance on this matter. All I know is that something is really fucked up there, but as for the details - how do I know? Should I trust Ukrainian news? Fuck them. Should I trust Russian news? Fuck them too.
I do watch this channel though - http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij/videos, it's an Ukrainian reporter who doesn't live there anymore. I'm far from declaring what he says to be an absolute truth, but he makes some good points. Not sure if he has eng subs though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 11:00:00 pm
And again like you might have guessed i have completely different point of view
its a chess game between states and russia
and i don't understand your position Tomek, u don't go into detail, what exactly u don't like Putin doing in Ukraine?
supporting rebels with equipment and letting volunteers cross border?
Ok what is the alternative? let ukrain army kill everyone or kick ppl out of their homes or get them all to prison? can u come up with solution?

Was original rebelion of UKR very democratic? And election of new president maybe?
I for example don't support extreme nationalists in russia who would dream of taking over all ukraine.
but i also don't support aggressive actions from NEW so called REAL government against its citizens.
Eu provoked this too, NA also, country divided, people want different things. Ukr gov stopped paying pensions to civilians in east ukraine, they also not allowed to vote.
Democratic?
WTF EU need ukraine for, it will take 50 years to get it to the level when it will be accepted properly.
Lets make cold assumption, Russian wants to influence ukraine, and lets say kazahstan, countries who was part of empire, union, and on border. Then why US and EU trying to influence all world is normal and here is not:)) To be fair then lets split up each state in USA to be different country and send our rebels there and supply them with weapons :)))) And explain to Russian population that we helping poor people fight for their freedom. ))

And again if they managed to make soft transition in Moldova this time, why didn't they do it in Ukraine, why they had to provoke russian speaking population to rebel? They either stupid people who can't think of a way to present things softly to population of their country or they wanted this war on purpose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 11:08:23 pm
Retarded u xant :)) Really lots of stupid shit, so basic stupid shit. Do u at list try to research?

don't think there is any point to discuss anything between us :)

U think that russia came from the east and destroyed infrastructure of rebels territory :))) Hahahaha
And not ukraine that is fighting on rebels territory did that :)

If my cat could laugh he would fucking die from laughter.

There is nothing for me here :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 11:13:44 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 11:00:00 pm
and i don't understand your position Tomek, u don't go into detail, what exactly u don't like Putin doing in Ukraine?
supporting rebels with equipment and letting volunteers cross border?

You mean: Creating rebels and shoving his army across border. Shelling from other side of border. It's same green men as in Crimea, just he hasn't admitted it's his green men yet. But you know its true deep in your heart, like everyone knows. It is his green men. So let's just leave that argument and never return shall we? For any practical purpose, it's an invasion designed to fuck up Ukraine and create an image to Russians he's doing something for their honor.

Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 11:00:00 pm
its a chess game between states and russia
No. It's a dirty poisoned dagger in Ukraine's side. Not a chess game, because Ukraine hardly have any pieces to play.


Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 11:00:00 pm
Ok what is the alternative? let ukrain army kill everyone or kick ppl out of their homes or get them all to prison? can u come up with solution?

Ukraine have offered amnesty numerous times afaik.

EU didn't fucking provoke this. PROVOCATION! RF media spews out. The 25 years of complete RF meddled mismanagement of Ukraine PROVOKED Maidan. You see, in RF you blame US, in West Ukraine, they blame RF for their problems. I think western Ukrainians have more right in their argument.

Just pretend Xant doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 03, 2015, 11:25:08 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 11:13:44 pm
Just pretend Xant doesn't exist.

Why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macropus on April 03, 2015, 11:27:21 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 03, 2015, 11:25:08 pm
Why?
Because there is no proof Xant ever existed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 03, 2015, 11:28:10 pm
Yeah, he kinda stopped playing when you arrived.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 03, 2015, 11:29:59 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 11:08:23 pm
Retarded u xant :)) Really lots of stupid shit, so basic stupid shit. Do u at list try to research?

don't think there is any point to discuss anything between us :)

U think that russia came from the east and destroyed infrastructure of rebels territory :))) Hahahaha
And not ukraine that is fighting on rebels territory did that :)

If my cat could laugh he would fucking die from laughter.

There is nothing for me here :)
Oh my fucking god you're clueless.

No, Russia wouldn't have destroyed infrastructure of the rebel territory, but Ukraine would have been forced to do it because of Russia's involvement.

And yes, you shouldn't listen to anything except RT and Putler.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 12:07:41 am
Quote from: Nebun on April 03, 2015, 10:27:55 pm
reallyyyyy :)) then i live on a different planet, Obama ordered support and bombings in Libya without congress approval or support. And he wanted to do same in Syria. I guess changed hist mind. Afganistan and Iraq? Well compare it to russian quests :)))
Ah yes, sure everything russia does its bad, while everything that west does can be explained.
Well then explain me why US got involved in my country and changed government?
Its not a thought or opinion, its a fact of which many ppl know. And know who did it and how did it, and story of the life of the guy who was sent to do it.
Its simply fight for territory and influence.

Do u know how I can guess if our government still ours or not. If it wants to make business with everyone and upsets russia and eu with some of their actions :)) i can be sure its ours. If it agrees to everything west says and does, then its URS :))

PS: I WILL TIRE U WITH MY WALLS OF TEXT UNTIL U GIVE UP

Well, EU's arguing American Politics. Interesting. Did the President order the bombings in Lybia: Yes. Problem is, a good portion of the country believes our president is a "dictator"(My parents are like ths) and trampling the US Constitution, while others believe he's a saint.

A good portion of Americans regret voting for our President. Now there's a lot of politcal talk I could bring about concerning our President and his breaches of power, but that's all Legal and fighting in Courts. (The courts finally said our presidents excessive use of bypassing Congress is Unconstitutional and have started halting him in doing this)

But, legalities aside, the President has many powers, but, like this current Iranian Nuclear Deal(Such a bad Idea, tbh) Congress or the Courts will either uphold or stop the president.

Interesting Read on Moldova(From US perspective?):
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21981.pdf
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 04, 2015, 05:07:21 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 04, 2015, 12:40:07 am
I have inside information that after reading this topic nebun's cat still died this morning,
Xant u a the murderer!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 09:38:01 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 11:13:44 pm
You mean: Creating rebels and shoving his army across border. Shelling from other side of border. It's same green men as in Crimea, just he hasn't admitted it's his green men yet. But you know its true deep in your heart, like everyone knows. It is his green men. So let's just leave that argument and never return shall we? For any practical purpose, it's an invasion designed to fuck up Ukraine and create an image to Russians he's doing something for their honor.
Better research of what real ukranian rebels say about what happened and how they got weapon and so on. I think you cant, because of that you think that Russia made it. I would give you a lot of rebels interviews but they are on russian. So you could see that it is not so clear as you say. I don't say that Russia wasn't envolved here, but thinking that this is all Russia at least not smart.

Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 11:13:44 pm
No. It's a dirty poisoned dagger in Ukraine's side. Not a chess game, because Ukraine hardly have any pieces to play.
So how can you explain visiting Ukraine by Viktoria Nulland, Biden, USA generals, and some EU politics?


Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 11:13:44 pm
Ukraine have offered amnesty numerous times afaik.
Yes on paper, in fact much more people got to prison, even people who didn't act in war. A policewoman was fired because she is from Donbass. You need to learn more about the situation in Donbass.

Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 11:13:44 pm
EU didn't fucking provoke this. PROVOCATION! RF media spews out. The 25 years of complete RF meddled mismanagement of Ukraine PROVOKED Maidan. You see, in RF you blame US, in West Ukraine, they blame RF for their problems. I think western Ukrainians have more right in their argument.

Just pretend Xant doesn't exist.
There were a lot of antimaidans in eastern Ukraine, why you don't count them. And again why USA and EU politics visitted maidan many times? And why Yatsenyuk(even Dave said that he is ready to sell his country), Oligarch Poroshenko, Klichko in power now. Did ukranian people make maidan for them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 10:40:35 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 12:07:41 am
Well, EU's arguing American Politics. Interesting. Did the President order the bombings in Lybia: Yes. Problem is, a good portion of the country believes our president is a "dictator"(My parents are like ths) and trampling the US Constitution, while others believe he's a saint.

A good portion of Americans regret voting for our President. Now there's a lot of politcal talk I could bring about concerning our President and his breaches of power, but that's all Legal and fighting in Courts. (The courts finally said our presidents excessive use of bypassing Congress is Unconstitutional and have started halting him in doing this)

But, legalities aside, the President has many powers, but, like this current Iranian Nuclear Deal(Such a bad Idea, tbh) Congress or the Courts will either uphold or stop the president.

Interesting Read on Moldova(From US perspective?):
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21981.pdf

Thats why i said few times that i'm against government and not people. I really hoped that obama will be for peace when elected and this mindless bush won't attack anyone anymore. I've watched some sources in NA that against Obama as well. I understand that not everyone supports him and some don't care.
Like George Carlin use to say - Don't believe anything that government tells u.

I didn't read all of the document u sent me but its very funny.
 "U.S. and Moldovan experts have expressed concern
about whether Russian President Putin’s annexation of Crimea and attempted destabilization of
eastern Ukraine presages a similar effort toward Moldova, including Russian recognition of the
independence of Transnistria. "

this is from Wiki
"The unification of Romania and Moldova (Romanian: Unirea Republicii Moldova cu România) became a popular concept in the two countries in late 1980s, during the dissolution of the Soviet Union. The Romanian Revolution and the independence of Moldova in 1991 further contributed to the development of a movement for the unification of the two Romanian-speaking countries. The question of reunification is recurrent in the public sphere of the two countries, often as a speculation, both as a goal and a danger. The idea, while widespread in Romania, is only supported by a minority in Moldova.[citation needed]

Individuals who advocate the unification are usually called "unionists" (unioniști). Some support it as a peaceful process based on consent in the two countries, others in the name of a "Romanian historical right over Bessarabia". The supporters of the union refer to the opponents as "Moldovenists" (moldoveniști)."

The only country that has eye on us is Romania. Romanian president said that there is no such country as moldova, considering us as part of their country.

But if shit happens and prednestrovie will defend itself from nationalist maniacs no one will ever believe me living in this country thats its not russia who is trying to annex moldova :)) instead west will believe media and documents like this.

You don't need facts this days. And its very easy to justify any actions.



Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 10:49:22 am
On troops in Ukraine. I don't agree with u.
First of all local population fighting!!!! this is the main thing. You put it like only russian soldiers fight in ukraine.
Chechen squad yes! If you would insult their president he would send troops to Finland. Its just the way he is.
Mecrs fight on both sides.
Lots of volunteers. Ppl from crimea and all over russia. Russian cossacks. Veterans of afganistan war.

This idiot poroshenko was waving Russian passports as proof of russian army in ukraine. Tthis fuck up doesn't even know that russian soldiers not allowed to carry passports with them. And in battle OMG>!
Equipment provided by russia, and US to each side. Everyone has their own interests in this conflict. And you don't take in account what those pppl who live in eastern ukraine want. All u say its russian doing and that it.
And if putin supports them because they russian speaking population or out of his own interest is not that important. Main thing is that somebody helps them.

Why ineterests of people who revolted and changed government are saint and those who revolted against current government are shits? Again its all a matter of view.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 02:55:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 09:38:01 am
Better research of what real ukranian rebels say about what happened and how they got weapon and so on. I think you cant, because of that you think that Russia made it. I would give you a lot of rebels interviews but they are on russian. So you could see that it is not so clear as you say. I don't say that Russia wasn't envolved here, but thinking that this is all Russia at least not smart.
So how can you explain visiting Ukraine by Viktoria Nulland, Biden, USA generals, and some EU politics?

Yes on paper, in fact much more people got to prison, even people who didn't act in war. A policewoman was fired because she is from Donbass. You need to learn more about the situation in Donbass.
There were a lot of antimaidans in eastern Ukraine, why you don't count them. And again why USA and EU politics visitted maidan many times? And why Yatsenyuk(even Dave said that he is ready to sell his country), Oligarch Poroshenko, Klichko in power now. Did ukranian people make maidan for them?

For god's sake. The rebel LEADER was russian KGB/FSB. What more proof do you want? We are talking "rebels" that don't even have their own leader, but one supplied by RF. Yes. I'm sure there are locals involved too, but it's steered and controlled from RF, and that makes it Russian. 

As I've stated before, I can understand you support RF since you are Russian. What I find idiotic is that you actually believe these things. As a Russian, you should have almost 100 years experience in NOT believing what kremlin is telling you, Pravda? :D Jesus.

US didn't create Maidan. Maidan was already there, and US politicians went there to show support LONG AFTER it was a thing. A friend of mine who plays in a small polish band played on Maidan to warm the crowds too, doesn't mean he created Maidan.

About anti-maidans, sure some of them were probably rooted in the depth of the people, but they were also helped by hammering RF propaganda from across the border, and we all saw the pictures of protesters being bussed around. If we are talking psyops, the anti-maidans bears all the marks of psyops, and Maidan none.

If they are going to "sell" ukraine, time will show. Right now they are in a war created and fueled by RF. It's a bit early to criticize Ukrainian economy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 03:05:03 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 02:55:07 pm
US didn't create Maidan. Maidan was already there, and US politicians went there to show support LONG AFTER it was a thing. A friend of mine who plays in a small polish band played on Maidan to warm the crowds too, doesn't mean he created Maidan.

About anti-maidans, sure some of them were probably rooted in the depth of the people, but they were also helped by hammering RF propaganda from across the border, and we all saw the pictures of protesters being bussed around. If we are talking psyops, the anti-maidans bears all the marks of psyops, and Maidan none.
Thomek just listen yourself, US didn't do nothing bad, Russia is guilty for everything. Was that russian KGB man from the beginning or he was sent there after rebellion begun. What people on maidan thought it just their true thoughts, and what Donbass people think is totall RF propaganda. Sorry I think Nebun already understood that this dialog is pointless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 03:19:27 pm
If I would see you move from your position where Kiev is all nazis put in place by CIA, perhaps I can moderate my opinions. But some things needs to be very clear.

ANY country which have rebels in it, will have to strike down on them. It's retarded how you criticize Kiev for its ATO when Russia and Putin has such a beautiful record in Chechnya. Yes there was a lot of confusion, bad timing and BS, but what do you expect. It's like this after any revolution. In time it would have sorted out with very little bloodshed. It didn't, because rebels got massive support from RF, just like RF has done before in Transnitria, Abkhazia and south Ossetia.

These areas got attacked not because they are full of Russians/sympathizers, but because RF is USING these areas to disrupt local independence. Everywhere else Russians, who are a normal, civilized european people, live peacefully with their surroundings. From new york, to paris, to estonia. The problem is how RF is using them as an excuse for power projection.

But yes, you are right. We seem to live in 2 different realities.

I live in one that works, that shows progress, that has rights for the individuals and open trade. Plenty of opportunities, and a relatively good life compared to most of the world. If you want to continue living in your alternative reality, then fine. If you think RF system works, then fine. I saw it for 2 weeks, and it became very clear to me, why your system doesn't.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 03:41:55 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 03:19:27 pm
If I would see you move from your position where Kiev is all nazis put in place by CIA, perhaps I can moderate my opinions. But some things needs to be very clear.

ANY country which have rebels in it, will have to strike down on them. It's retarded how you criticize Kiev for its ATO when Russia and Putin has such a beautiful record in Chechnya. Yes there was a lot of confusion, bad timing and BS, but what do you expect. It's like this after any revolution. In time it would have sorted out with very little bloodshed. It didn't, because rebels got massive support from RF, just like RF has done before in Transnitria, Abkhazia and south Ossetia.

These areas got attacked not because they are full of Russians/sympathizers, but because RF is USING these areas to disrupt local independence. Everywhere else Russians, who are a normal, civilized european people, live peacefully with their surroundings. From new york, to paris, to estonia. The problem is how RF is using them as an excuse for power projection.

But yes, you are right. We seem to live in 2 different realities.

I live in one that works, that shows progress, that has rights for the individuals and open trade. Plenty of opportunities, and a relatively good life compared to most of the world. If you want to continue living in your alternative reality, then fine. If you think RF system works, then fine. I saw it for 2 weeks, and it became very clear to me, why your system doesn't.
Thomek, you become as Kuujis, who say about me something what I've never said. What  is all nazis put in place by CIA? Never said that, if I said that right sector has nazis or some battalions, I showed it by videos or photos. Never said that Government consists of nazis. Said only that they gave weapons to radicals, who robbed, raped and killed a lot of people in ATO zone. Ukranian army has good guys. I never said that RF system is good, everybody in my country know that it is shit, but improved from 90s. And I can say that Yatsenyuk, Poroshenko and Klichko are USA puppets. I think same scenario as Nebun wrote about his country. Thomek calm down. Seems your propoganda works too.
About Chechnya, I wrote previously a huge story. Seems you didn't study this too deep, because of that you blame Russia. I can blame Eltsin(previous president - USA puppet) because he started this war, and Putin just ended it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 03:55:27 pm
You say these things as if Ukr had any real choice.  (Which they don't!)

After revolution, they still had nazis in the streets, and no riot police to protect themselves with. They had to give them something, or we would see true 100% nazi government in Ukr. The nazi battalions were created for 2 main reasons.

1. A lot of people wanted to fight, some nazis, some not.
2. The main body of the Ukrainian army proved useless, because of the chaos of revolution, because of rebel sympathizers, because of RF spies.

Yes, everybody knew it was not a good thing to create those battalions, but it was the only option. They would not let crimea happen again. If they didn't do it, donbass would be russian now.

About politicians being puppets. I don't think so, but they also don't have a choice at the moment. So for now, yes, they are puppets right now. If you want to call someone a puppet who has no choice. RF has chased them into the arms of the west.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 04:10:20 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 03:55:27 pm
You say these things as if Ukr had any real choice.  (Which they don't!)

After revolution, they still had nazis in the streets, and no riot police to protect themselves with. They had to give them something, or we would see true 100% nazi government in Ukr. The nazi battalions were created for 2 main reasons.

1. A lot of people wanted to fight, some nazis, some not.
2. The main body of the Ukrainian army proved useless, because of the chaos of revolution, because of rebel sympathizers, because of RF spies.

Yes, everybody knew it was not a good thing to create those battalions, but it was the only option. They would not let crimea happen again. If they didn't do it, donbass would be russian now.

About politicians being puppets. I don't think so, but they also don't have a choice at the moment. So for now, yes, they are puppets right now. If you want to call someone a puppet who has no choice. RF has chased them into the arms of the west.
They had, if they would follow the agreement of 21 february. When Yanukovich sighned all what maidan requested for, why the revolt happened? For now Donbass will never join Ukraine, after that battalions' crimes, after city shellnigs. I have just one question why EU accepted that revolt right after sighning of agreement, which would solve a lot of problems.
I talked with my friend from USA, and he said that you russians always frighten others with your nukes, then I asked him what about Hirosima and Nagasaki, he said that it was a need. Same as here. Thomek you have your opinion and nothing would change it. I have mine, I watched a lot of video about Donbass people, my aunt lives in Luhansk. I talked with her. If you want to see full picture, you should learn what ussual people in Donbass think, what they saw by their own eyes, becuase I think you will never see it in your media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:14:10 pm
I didn't say they all chocolate chip cookies, they just allied with them, there is small part of them, because in every country there is a small part of chocolate chip cookies
I would never ally with them in any condition.
Soo when US/EU helping rebels in other countries to make revolution its ok and in Ukraine rebels are criminals? Ah and Russia ofcourse.
Last countries to come out of soviet union are behind in development.
I don't see how joining Eu would immediately help them. And if we need to consider a long run. Our country was improving greatly out of really shitty times since 2000. Up until now :)

I'm sure u don't see it that way, but in russia i see potential. up to 2000 their dept was growing and reached 146% and right now its about 5%. Army improved greatly. Slowly but surely i think everything else will catch up. Huge deals with China, new international currency soon. New trade partnership/alliance with developing countries.
We'll see how it goes in next 10-20 years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 04:23:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 04:10:20 pm
They had, if they would follow the agreement of 21 february. When Yanukovich sighned all what maidan requested for, why the revolt happened? For now Donbass will never join Ukraine, after that battalions' crimes, after city shellnigs. I have just one question why EU accepted that revolt right after sighning of agreement, which would solve a lot of problems.
I talked with my friend from USA, and he said that you russians always frighten others with your nukes, then I asked him what about Hirosima and Nagasaki, he said that it was a need. Same as here. Thomek you have your opinion and nothing would change it. I have mine, I watched a lot of video about Donbass people, my aunt lives in Luhansk. I talked with her. If you want to see full picture, you should learn what ussual people in Donbass think, what they saw by their own eyes, becuase I think you will never see it in your media.

That was a war, the first nuclear bombs ever, and an enemy who had clearly set up a full defensive guerilla war. Many in allied high command had thought that Japan would never surrender without an invasion on it's main homeland. The "bombs" were the answer to that. Rather than invading, they thought they could put fear into the Japanese and force them out. Now, as most of that is conjecture(others say that, had the US blockaded Japan, they would have collapsed internally and surrendered), we can't say if it was the right course, but, based on as much as we can tell, it seems to still be the best way to end WW2.

Unlike the US, Russia has threatened Nuclear war(though it was the SU not the current RF) through out it's history. Somethings are hard to erase from peoples minds. In fact, had Russia not been as "haughty" recently(Sochi, followed by Ukraine) I'm sure most people over in the "west" wouldn't give two shits about Russia, save for its border nations. After the SU's fall and end of Cold War, many (older) Americans found things better, but now, they feel like it's the Cold War all over again, thanks to Russia.

TBH, US doesn't need Russia to be a "punching" bag. The US has plenty of area's that they can "deal with"(like the middle east) that were far more important than Russia is today. Then Russia had to go and  Fund Rebels and increase Aggressive Expansion Penalties against neighboring nations. Them bad boy points aren't good.  Only good thing is Russian Putin is a 6-2-6 leader. Gives good bonus to stability and Military.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:27:13 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 03:55:27 pm
You say these things as if Ukr had any real choice.  (Which they don't!)

After revolution, they still had nazis in the streets, and no riot police to protect themselves with. They had to give them something, or we would see true 100% nazi government in Ukr. The nazi battalions were created for 2 main reasons.

1. A lot of people wanted to fight, some nazis, some not.
2. The main body of the Ukrainian army proved useless, because of the chaos of revolution, because of rebel sympathizers, because of RF spies.

Yes, everybody knew it was not a good thing to create those battalions, but it was the only option. They would not let crimea happen again. If they didn't do it, donbass would be russian now.

About politicians being puppets. I don't think so, but they also don't have a choice at the moment. So for now, yes, they are puppets right now. If you want to call someone a puppet who has no choice. RF has chased them into the arms of the west.

haha :) you think this battalions stand between russia and donbas? :))) if russia would lunch full scale attack on ukraine it would take maybe few weeks for war to be over and chocolate chip cookie battalions would be wiped ... though it would be a bad thing, i think to attack ukraine

You see how nice u can explain what something bad is good.

its just fascinating how so much action happens on NA/EU side in the world considered good and Russian action in a lot lower scale considered sooo bad.
There is a saying here, if it suits US its freedom fighters, and if it doesn't its terrorists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 04:34:59 pm
I can not judge about Hirosima and Nagasaki bombs. I just don't like people who state something and doesn't try to see another side. Because for me it is not so clear. When Thomek says that I see only nazis in Kiev, I think he took this from his media, then it is only one side of the medal. I really understand what ukranians feel about Crimea or Donbass. And when I try to show that USA has interests in Ukraine some people start to say that this is impossible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:39:40 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 04:23:07 pm
That was a war, the first nuclear bombs ever, and an enemy who had clearly set up a full defensive guerilla war. Many in allied high command had thought that Japan would never surrender without an invasion on it's main homeland. The "bombs" were the answer to that. Rather than invading, they thought they could put fear into the Japanese and force them out. Now, as most of that is conjecture(others say that, had the US blockaded Japan, they would have collapsed internally and surrendered), we can't say if it was the right course, but, based on as much as we can tell, it seems to still be the best way to end WW2.

Unlike the US, Russia has threatened Nuclear war(though it was the SU not the current RF) through out it's history. Somethings are hard to erase from peoples minds. In fact, had Russia not been as "haughty" recently(Sochi, followed by Ukraine) I'm sure most people over in the "west" wouldn't give two shits about Russia, save for its border nations. After the SU's fall and end of Cold War, many (older) Americans found things better, but now, they feel like it's the Cold War all over again, thanks to Russia.

TBH, US doesn't need Russia to be a "punching" bag. The US has plenty of area's that they can "deal with"(like the middle east) that were far more important than Russia is today. Then Russia had to go and  Fund Rebels and increase Aggressive Expansion Penalties against neighboring nations. Them bad boy points aren't good.  Only good thing is Russian Putin is a 6-2-6 leader. Gives good bonus to stability and Military.

maybe US was upset that Russia didn't let US bomb Syria  and made their move on Ukraine, or it was planned at some point anyway :) who knows, the only thing i can say is that in looking at my country in Georgia and Ukraine same types of revolutions. And in middle east as well. Installing ur puppets in every country is a bit harsh.

You even have your EX Adviser, can't remember his name but very popular, write a fucking book about it. Even stated years when US will fuck with each country to take control over them. Every fucking country they do that with end up with US bases and PRO on their territory.
Basic policy of us Divide and Conquer.

If you read a book written in 1998 but a guy who worked for US government and then everything he wrote back then comes to happen at exact dates he mentioned then its hard to consider it bullshit. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:42:05 pm
about WW2 all main leaders back then acted like fuck ups. Before and after WW2
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 04:43:28 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 04:34:59 pm
I can not judge about Hirosima and Nagasaki bombs. I just don't like people who state something and doesn't try to see another side. Because for me it is not so clear. When Thomek says that I see only nazis in Kiev, I think he took this from his media, then it is only one side of the medal. I really understand what ukranians feel about Crimea or Donbass. And when I try to show that USA has interests in Ukraine some people start to say that this is impossible.

I don't think US (would have had) any interest in Ukraine following Maidan, but, Russia did "up the ante" and made the US want to take action. Now, considering our President, he's more interested in making bad policy deals with people like Iran, to patch up his mistake with the ME. It's congress(the people who matter for things like this) that care about Ukraine, and Russia's increasing Pressure in Eastern Europe.

If Russia did fully invade Ukraine, I think the US would truly counter that. Hence, Russia wouldn't want that, and why the US is only pushing "sanctions." It's Cold War all over again, the problem is, who will light the match first.

Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:39:40 pm
maybe US was upset that Russia didn't let US bomb Syria  and made their move on Ukraine, or it was planned at some point anyway :) who knows, the only thing i can say is that in looking at my country in Georgia and Ukraine same types of revolutions. And in middle east as well. Installing ur puppets in every country is a bit harsh.

You even have your EX Adviser, can't remember his name but very popular, write a fucking book about it. Even stated years when US will fuck with each country to take control over them. Every fucking country they do that with end up with US bases and PRO on their territory.
Basic policy of us Divide and Conquer.

If you read a book written in 1998 but a guy who worked for US government and then everything he wrote back then comes to happen at exact dates he mentioned then its hard to consider it bullshit. 

Actually, congress was against the Syrian bombing campaign. The President came out with it, and a lot of people said "No, fuck off!" The US media quickly shut down on it bout a week after the "announcement." Looking back, though, it seems to be a better choice as now the entire area is screwed. But this comes down to some very stupid policy decisions from an incompetent leader. First he withdrew from Iraq way to fast, now he's supporting Shiite lead militia's(opposite of our original support 2 years ago) forcing our former Sunni Countries to want to get their OWN nuclear weapons and arms races going. He's basically flip-floped on his power structure in the Middle East so many times, everyone is getting annoyed at his incompetence over here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:48:38 pm
I don't think so, its fight for influence.
Well Crimea is part of Russia now, where is US?

To avoid nuclear war and still increase their influence US simply installs its governments via revolutions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 04, 2015, 04:51:09 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:39:40 pm
maybe US was upset that Russia didn't let US bomb Syria  and made their move on Ukraine, or it was planned at some point anyway :) who knows, the only thing i can say is that in looking at my country in Georgia and Ukraine same types of revolutions. And in middle east as well. Installing ur puppets in every country is a bit harsh.

What puppets exactly? Ukraine and Georgia had russian puppets before these types of revolution. They werent even countries. I think you should be friends with Russia. No i mean it. Get these relations even warmer and you get to see what exactly living in a puppetstate actually looks like. Its really odd that you consider befriending USA and Europe as sort of giving your country to someone else, unable to realise its basically just a well planned propaganda. Its a really good excuse  pro-east propaganda: "we may not be as rich as the West, but atleast we arent bound to Western chains." Its just basically a message to tell you to hate EU more and demand less from your own leaders. Its really funny.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 04:52:42 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 04:48:38 pm
I don't think so, its fight for influence.
Well Crimea is part of Russia now, where is US?

To avoid nuclear war and still increase their influence US simply installs its governments via revolutions.

US has no stake in Ukraine. Never did. EU does though. Like I said: If not for Putin, US wouldn't give two shits about Ukraine. Honestly. There was almost NO media Coverage over Maidan here. At first there was some, then it slacked off, then when the street fighting took place there was more for a bit. Then Russia annexed Crimea: Boom! Bunch of coverage and 2 months of shit plus a shot down airliner...

And now: Nothing. Like I said, US doesn't care. We care about the ME since our President is a fucking Idiot on Foreign policy. Hell, some of his own party called him out on his idiotic ideas over the middle east. (And it's easier to divert our attention from his policies by using things like Ukraine, etc. to divert attention to domestic fails and foreign snafus)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 04, 2015, 04:53:13 pm
Funny to see how "Putin ordered the annexation of Crimea!" - "No, he didn't, just western propaganda!" is already erased from the minds of Nicko, Tovi and the likes, now that Mr. Putin actually admitted that Crimea is Russian because he wanted it to be.

Still, it's all Kiev's fault and ofc US/EU...
The very single specific move that triggered everything else is calmly ignored and the blame is put on everyone else but the one instance who actually ordered it. Very convenient.

Edit:
Funny fact:
Before Maidan nobody gave a damn about Russia, neither good nor bad. Only mentioning was "might be a good place for good business in the future, tho high risk cuz of corruption."
I am kinda curious how it came to be that everyone now seems to think "The West hates Russia!". That's nonsense. People didn't give a shit till Crimea happened. True story. Just saying...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 04:54:40 pm
Lol.. US didn't instate any puppets in Ukraine. What fucking government would continue to be RF aligned, friendly, or even "neutral" after crimea???

Russia simply pushed Ukraine into the arms of the west. End of story.

About Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I'm of the opinion it was totally unnecessary.. Japan was on the verge to surrender / stop war anyway, but historians differ there.

About the deal of 21st.. Again, it was a revolution. The leaders couldn't have stopped it if they wanted to. The wave just kept rolling. People were too fired up, and didn't have any trust left for Yanukovic.


@Nebun

No I don't think those battalions have much of a function anymore. When they were created they made sense. Not the least just to get the nazis off the streets of Kiev...

And russias intention is not invade or annex ukraine. Just to keep that easily twisted dagger in the side as power projection and to continue influence over ukraine politics. Just like in Georgia and Moldova.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 04:57:11 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 04:54:40 pm
About Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I'm of the opinion it was totally unnecessary.. Japan was on the verge to surrender / stop war anyway, but historians differ there.

And I disagree, but, you're correct. Japan was on the veirge, but at the same time, they had clearly no intention of surrendering. "What if" is a bad scenario to discuss about somethings because no matter which way you argue, both could be legitimate with just the right information.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 04, 2015, 04:59:30 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 04:57:11 pm
And I disagree, but, you're correct. Japan was on the veirge, but at the same time, they had clearly no intention of surrendering. "What if" is a bad scenario to discuss about somethings because no matter which way you argue, both could be legitimate with just the right information.
Thomek is correct tho. Last time I read into it, historians are on 2 different sides on the question if it was actually necessary or just scientific/warfare curiosity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 05:01:24 pm
Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2015, 04:59:30 pm
Thomek is correct tho. Last time I read into it, historians are on 2 different sides on the question if it was actually necessary or just scientific/warfare curiosity.

Never said I disagreed with that did I. I disagreed with the fact that it wasn't necessary. I've read quite a lot about it, as WW2 is one of my "interests" in history.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 05:02:48 pm
Either way, Japan started the war with US pretty much unprovoked and the US was just finished fighting in Europe. Fuck that shit, why should they want thousands and thousands more of their citizens to die just to save some Japanese sensibilities? They might have had other motives (like showing off their power), but the reality is that they saved a lot of their own people with it and they didn't start the war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 05:13:18 pm
:)) If there was nothing in media when revolution and illegal election of new president happend, its logical. Media turns on to show HOW BAD RUSSIANS ARE, after their reaction :))
Media didn't show anything that happened in moldova too. Simple clear change.
Ok then if US doesn't try to push borders of Nato and has no interest in Ukraine, in big country bordering RF. Then why they bothered with moldova that is on border with ukraine? :)
Ah yes they didn't tell u on news that they have interest in our country. Then they don't. I'm just lying here. What do i know about whats happening over here when u have a clear picture from another continent.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 05:15:28 pm
all this conversations so much fun :) and doesn't change anything
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 05:18:26 pm
Need to 1000 pages record. Son of Biden is a new director of huge oil company in Ukraine, visiting of many USA politics to Ukraine. No they don't have any interests. One of richest men in USA wants to buy all debts of Ukraine. He is just so kind  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 05:28:00 pm
i don't know if any of you read this book!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard
http://www.takeoverworld.info/Grand_Chessboard.pdf

should give u some nice reading about interests of US
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 05:32:05 pm
Right now, the Ukrainians are cornered.

They will do anything to be supported through this ordeal. But the good thing is that EU/US also wants a strong (west aligned) Ukraine, so their goals are united.

The problem is that RF + Separatists can keep the knife in their side there as long as they wish to. And they will twist it as they see fit.

@Nebun
Brzezinski is an extreme hawk. Russia has their hawks too.. Doesn't mean all that much in the real world.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 05:52:30 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 05:32:05 pm
Right now, the Ukrainians are cornered.

They will do anything to be supported through this ordeal. But the good thing is that EU/US also wants a strong (west aligned) Ukraine, so their goals are united.

The problem is that RF + Separatists can keep the knife in their side there as long as they wish to. And they will twist it as they see fit.

@Nebun
Brzezinski is an extreme hawk. Russia has their hawks too.. Doesn't mean all that much in the real world.

ye u know better :)
but how about those things that come true over the years after the book, in those years when he said it would happen?

so maybe he knows a little more the couch warrior in politics :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on April 04, 2015, 06:02:58 pm
Wait wait wait, Russia stopped the US from attacking Syria?

The US never had any intention of attacking Syria, if it did it would've done so already. Assad is still in power in Syria because the US realized the moderate Syrian opposition would be overrun by Islamists sooner or later. If anything, Russia gave the US a way out which it gladly accepted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 06:16:27 pm
Quote from: Swaggart on April 04, 2015, 06:02:58 pm
Wait wait wait, Russia stopped the US from attacking Syria?

The US never had any intention of attacking Syria, if it did it would've done so already. Assad is still in power in Syria because the US realized the moderate Syrian opposition would be overrun by Islamists sooner or later. If anything, Russia gave the US a way out which it gladly accepted.

Haha what an interesting story, type in google: Russian and Chinese vetoes of Syria ICC resolution
Obama tried to convince UN to use force in Syria because he had made up proofs that was rejected later by UN as false proofs.
And Putin tried to convince UN not to let US and allies attack Syria.
U can find all speaches and dialogues and statements on youtube.

PS: all US is doing right now is supplying Islamists in Syria with mercs and equipment. Instead of full scale war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on April 04, 2015, 06:27:58 pm
If the US seriously wanted to topple Assad they would not have went through the UN where they knew it would lead them nowhere. They have many times acted unilaterally in what they perceive to be their self interest, and there is no reason to believe they wouldn't have if they truly wanted Assad gone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 04, 2015, 06:32:10 pm
Like I stated previously, they had already set the media and opinions to hate on Assad. They couldn't turn around as quickly as the situation on the ground in syria did. Would make them look weak, and thats not possible in US media landscape.

So they had to pretend that they wanted to attack syria for a good long while.

They kind of still mumble on about Assad, but in reality they are bombing IS inside syria.. practically being his ally.:P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 06:48:33 pm
i disagree :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 07:23:32 pm
i was so wrong it did happen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJbFUvmmnbk
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 04, 2015, 08:15:01 pm
Russian blimptechnology has come a long way....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 04, 2015, 08:29:11 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 08:32:03 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 06:48:33 pm
i disagree :)
So the US is this big monster that attacks countries everywhere and topples governments...

Unless the UN or Russia or China ask them not to. And of course they ask permission from them first. Sounds legit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 08:41:20 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 04, 2015, 08:32:03 pm
So the US is this big monster that attacks countries everywhere and topples governments...

Unless the UN or Russia or China ask them not to. And of course they ask permission from them first. Sounds legit.

no because it won't fit into ur little brain xzzzzaant
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 09:24:39 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 08:41:20 pm
no because it won't fit into ur little brain xzzzzaant
You should perhaps learn how to write English first before calling anyone else's brain little. But then, if you were capable of learning, you wouldn't still believe everything Russian propaganda says. So, alas.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 10:30:28 pm
Well i'm very neutral in my mind. And there are 3 languages that fit in my head :) How many do u know?

If russia will invade ur country i will help u friend Xant, but if EU and NA would invade Russia :)) i will be the first one to burn US bases in EU. Does that suit u?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 10:36:42 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 10:30:28 pm
Well i'm very neutral in my mind. And there are 3 languages that fit in my head :) How many do u know?
Amazing. Your intelligence is at least at the level of a three year old, then. Knowing many languages =/= intelligence. And I know three as well.

Quote
If russia will invade ur country i will help u friend Xant, but if EU and NA would invade Russia :)) i will be the first one to burn US bases in EU. Does that suit u?
I'd wish you good luck trying to burn down US bases, but I don't think you should commit suicide.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:13:26 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 04, 2015, 10:36:42 pm
Amazing. Your intelligence is at least at the level of a three year old, then. Knowing many languages =/= intelligence. And I know three as well.
I'd wish you good luck trying to burn down US bases, but I don't think you should commit suicide.
you believe in US army so much :) that's nice

really? three year old? :)) how could u make that assumption with ur level of development?
What country are u from anyway?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 11:28:06 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:13:26 pm
you believe in US army so much :) that's nice

really? three year old? :)) how could u make that assumption with ur level of development?
What country are u from anyway?
Compared to any eastern militaries, including Russia's, yes, the US military is from a different planet - no contest.

So obviously you completely missed my point about three year olds because what you're asking makes no sense.

If you can't figure out which country I'm from, consider getting your eyes checked.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:29:07 pm
I didn't read ur description :)) how old u are?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 11:29:39 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:29:07 pm
I didn't read ur description :)) how old u are?
What's your favorite color?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:37:02 pm
I just don't want to spend my time talking to a stupid child
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 11:37:56 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:37:02 pm
I just don't want to spend my time talking to a stupid child
Don't talk out loud then. LOL )))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:38:01 pm
on the other hand talking to stupid adult doesn't make any sense either so forget it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 04, 2015, 11:38:52 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:38:01 pm
on the other hand talking to stupid adult doesn't make any sense either so forget it
Yes, there's the added consequence of people thinking you're crazy if you do it too much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:48:54 pm
If u shy about ur age u either kid or a child!
OMG my cat died because of a child!!!!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 12:03:58 am
Quote from: Nebun on April 04, 2015, 11:48:54 pm
If u shy about ur age u either kid or a child!
OMG my cat died because of a child!!!!!
I'm not shy about my age, I just don't see the point of playing 21 irrelevant questions with you.

Also, typical Russian. Either the insult is "your mom" or "omg kid." But I guess more complex insults would take some intelligence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:10:41 am
doesn't matter what we talk about since all the stuff i heard from u so far is stupid

when tomek tells something he explains, and your thoughts just sort of pump, from somewhere, maybe one of ur nuts :) i don't know, I'm not a doctor.
Its just i have younger brother, he almost 2x younger then me and he doesn't say as much stupid shit as u do, so i was concerned... maybe i shouldn't discuss anything with u...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:11:43 am
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 12:03:58 am
I'm not shy about my age, I just don't see the point of playing 21 irrelevant questions with you.

Also, typical Russian. Either the insult is "your mom" or "omg kid." But I guess more complex insults would take some intelligence.

I will leave that to you :)) since u are so smart
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 12:12:25 am
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:10:41 am
doesn't matter what we talk about since all the stuff i heard from u so far is stupid

when tomek tells something he explains, and your thoughts just sort of pump, from somewhere, maybe one of ur nuts :) i don't know, I'm not a doctor.
Its just i have younger brother, he almost 2x younger then me and he doesn't say as much stupid shit as u do, so i was concerned... maybe i shouldn't discuss anything with u...
Classic Russian, incapable of anything but ad hominem. Your only replies to my replies have been insults, because you're too dumb to come up with reasonable arguments. Don't worry, I understand -- nobody chooses to be born with fetal alcohol syndrome in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:19:34 am
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 12:12:25 am
Classic Russian, incapable of anything but ad hominem. Your only replies to my replies have been insults, because you're too dumb to come up with reasonable arguments. Don't worry, I understand -- nobody chooses to be born with fetal alcohol syndrome in Russia.

hehe i'm not even russian, didn't u know? did u even read anything i've posted so far?
Insulting is more fun, at list its getting to u a little. Because u don't really have any logic in ur thoughts, so whats the point of discussing those with u?

You told somewhere there that people are happy for US to be world police :)) Well i'm person, and my friends people and they not happy with US to be police in our country! so where is this information coming from? ur ass or ur moth?
ah whats the difference
we can't have a proper conversation between eachother, because i think u hear only the things u want to hear :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on April 05, 2015, 12:21:21 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 03, 2015, 11:13:44 pm
...
Just pretend Xant doesn't exist.
It will truly make your life better, Nebun
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 12:41:05 am
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:19:34 am
hehe i'm not even russian, didn't u know? did u even read anything i've posted so far?
Insulting is more fun, at list its getting to u a little. Because u don't really have any logic in ur thoughts, so whats the point of discussing those with u?

You told somewhere there that people are happy for US to be world police :)) Well i'm person, and my friends people and they not happy with US to be police in our country! so where is this information coming from? ur ass or ur moth?
ah whats the difference
we can't have a proper conversation between eachother, because i think u hear only the things u want to hear :)
Potato, potato. Soviet, Russian.

No, the insults aren't getting to me at all, I'm sorry to say. It'd take a bit more creativity, all your insults are honestly second grader level.

I was talking about people, not Russians, doh.

Of course we can't have a discussion, there's no pro-Russian in this thread who's capable of even a semblance of intelligent and independent thought.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 02:19:15 am
No Finnish people either Xant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 05, 2015, 02:56:15 am
When do you guys expect split to happen or you think that EU/NATO will insist on Ukraine to stay as a whole until very end?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 03:25:49 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 02:19:15 am
No Finnish people either Xant.
No one called 'Thomek' either, Thomek xDDD

So creative!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 11:46:23 am

i guess ur glass is full of shit xant so there nothing else would fit into ur head
so anything i post here is not for u

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw&feature=youtu.be&list=PLrwhIFP0oIj4aVN2In-ibvRFEhLN7JSua 
this guy has a point, why US not getting involved with countries in africa that doesn't have any oil or countries not close to Russian border?

Russia have more resources then all of them by the way :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 11:58:52 am
actually it works out great for US right now, they've head Bush, he fucked up with wars and Iraq, no problem they changed him with next election, then they have Obama who also fucked up in many cases, no problem someone else will come for next term :) Those bankers or whoever else set course for US politics ( POLITICS THAT DOESN'T CHANGE WITH CHANGE OF PRESIDENT) can change ur presidents forever :) Making u feel its democratic and changes everything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:13:21 pm
btw to that Utube video i sent
this is the guy who is in youtube video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHLqaSZPe98

or he works for putin too?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:23:07 pm
another country with Oil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhFbFcndYbA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 12:55:32 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on April 04, 2015, 04:52:42 pm
US has no stake in Ukraine. Never did. EU does though. Like I said: If not for Putin, US wouldn't give two shits about Ukraine. Honestly. There was almost NO media Coverage over Maidan here. At first there was some, then it slacked off, then when the street fighting took place there was more for a bit. Then Russia annexed Crimea: Boom! Bunch of coverage and 2 months of shit plus a shot down airliner...

And now: Nothing. Like I said, US doesn't care. We care about the ME since our President is a fucking Idiot on Foreign policy. Hell, some of his own party called him out on his idiotic ideas over the middle east. (And it's easier to divert our attention from his policies by using things like Ukraine, etc. to divert attention to domestic fails and foreign snafus)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Z79qsuNxc
here is just one bit of news of US supporting ukraine before Crimea referendum. There was a lot more videos.
Also Yatseniuk has a Fund http://openukraine.org/en and he use to have US sponsors listed in his fund before revolution started in Ukraine, then they was removed from his site.
This info i can't check, all i've seen is screenshoots on this site before they got removed.
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2014/03/the-arseniy-yatsenyuk-foundation-has-disappeared/
and while i was looking for this information funny thing happened :)))
They actually returned all partners back to the page!!! http://openukraine.org/en/about/partners
because its safe now :)))

isn't that cool when one of the main guys fighting in revolution is funded by US Government/ Nato/ Chatham House (i don't even know who this are)

and now for everyone to relax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-i--EAfBPw (i know u must hate this RT but this is just for fun not real politics)
he said it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCenHr6c8oE but i just can't find this video with english translation, i've even seen german translation but not english
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 12:57:40 pm
Nebun stop it, US and EU have no interests in Ukraine, they just want people live better  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 01:20:35 pm
yes Democracy in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOQTFIdi3I Anti Maidan protest in mariupol filmed on phone. I'm sure this people appreciate ur help.
I have a friend who lives in Lviv - far west of ukrain, almost at its borders. He has company and team of ppl working with him. None of his friends or workers or him support current government, they just keep their mouth shut and head low.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 05, 2015, 01:36:10 pm
Liars cought lying again.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21647828-russian-press-cooks-up-ethnic-separatism-transcarpathia-long-live-ruthenia

In other news at eleven - shithole remains a shithole; Nebun on  the other hand has been recently hired as brand new version of Tovi, repeating russian created conspiracy theories left and right, because obviously "he knows better" and everyone else is a brainwashed westerner.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 01:42:24 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 01:20:35 pm
yes Democracy in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOQTFIdi3I Anti Maidan protest in mariupol filmed on phone. I'm sure this people appreciate ur help.
I have a friend who lives in Lviv - far west of ukrain, almost at its borders. He has company and team of ppl working with him. None of his friends or workers or him support current government, they just keep their mouth shut and head low.

Oh my god, someone doesnt support their government. What a shock. Seriuslly, now you just went full retard and are throwing every little displeasing fact you know here. Most people dont support their own governments. Thats how democracy works. One side wins, other keeps quiet til new elections. Atleast ukrainians now have the option to choose.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 02:15:09 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 01:42:24 pm
Oh my god, someone doesnt support their government. What a shock. Seriuslly, now you just went full retard and are throwing every little displeasing fact you know here. Most people dont support their own governments. Thats how democracy works. One side wins, other keeps quiet til new elections. Atleast ukrainians now have the option to choose.

its not about not supporting government, its about how they deal with them :))

well did u watch any of the other videos ? maybe u want to comment on all of them? not just this one

if former retired NATO general, who was in command of all nato forces at some point, doesn't convince u even a little, then there are shit lot u tube videos with ex CIA, NATO and other agents on u tube telling the same thing
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 02:22:08 pm
its like u watch only one resource and thats it, closing eyes on everything else.

maybe just question some of the things? turn ur brain on for a while, maybe u'll find something new and useful

I'm for example very critical to RT chan, it is russia orientated, but there are just some facts that can be taken from there and you don't have to take opinion of reportes on the matter. All reporters just exaggerate depending on who they belong to. Propaganda both ways. But on the other hand if someone tells an idiotic lie on Western news chan, then how do u defend urself and present proof that its a lie? Through alternative media.

Did u see interviews with Psaki? All she says, we believe russian did this and russia did that, without any proofs. All u have to do now in media is to say - I believe that ... and any phrase after that and ppl think its a fact then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 02:27:11 pm
I'll show u hows its done on Yetsenyk example

U find multiple videos of his speach on you tube to make sure its true and was on German TV, then u listen to original version in ukrainian, then u forget about all reaction of press to his speach, so it doesn't cloud ur mind...
then u think for a few minutes and u give ur result: He is insane stupid idiot!
vuala

Thats how u do it with all news.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 02:29:30 pm
What is EU / NATO?

They are for the most part democratic, successful countries, where people in general live good lives. You can throw shit at US all day, but please don't call it a failed state. It's an awesome country in so many ways, and superior to any country in the world in many other ways. It's the country where you can sue McDonalds for millions if they spill hot coffee on you. So in a sense, they do have pretty good rights for the consumer. :D

What is the Russia aligned countries? Right now: Byelorussia, Kazakhstan.. uhm.. Armenia? Venezuela, cuba? Syria, serbia (India and China would choose the west any day.)

All of them backwards countries, some of them with the potential to be rich, but their people see none of that wealth. I mean.. Come on! Who the fuck in their right mind would like to belong to that gang of non democratic dictatorship kleptocracies? Obvious choice is obvious. But still some people think it's "Smart" to align with RF who has nothing to offer. Money or idea-wise. These days they can hardly prop up Transnitria :D

I'm so sorry Nebun, but cheap gas will not bring your country forward.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 03:01:02 pm
This is why RF is so effective. People get the impression that the West is shit, so they look for alternatives, so they bloat other more broken and unefficient systems to be more powerful than they actually are. People like Nebun are so scared of the evil US empire, that they blind themselves to bigger threats.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 03:07:25 pm
That is the problem, that you know better how to live for other nations without asking them how they want. And I believe in God, and what is going in the west. I could say that they will end like Soddom and Hommora one day. Those cities were rich too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 03:08:42 pm
If you believe in god you will love it in america!!!! They are much much more fanatic about it than the russians :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 03:15:59 pm
soo since they most powerful in the world they have the right to start wars everywhere? :)
again this is all bullshit, since developments of countries u listed begun in 2000, before that they was recovering after soviet union collapse.
right now i see that economic growth and potential of developing countries are far more then in EU/US, just needs some time. U got on top of the mountain long ago, sitting there and thinking how low is everyone else.
Well then compare economic growth and depts of russia to US for example. Don't compare how shitty one is next to another, developing country is not a 1 day process. Compare numbers of US growth over last 15 years and russia growth over last 15 years. Depts, Jobs etc.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_economy_since_fall_of_Soviet_Union.PNG
http://www.statista.com/statistics/188165/annual-gdp-growth-of-the-united-states-since-1990/
since 2000 not in any of the years they reached 4 %
just for u Finland http://www.tradingeconomics.com/finland/gdp-growth
unemployment rate http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/unemployment-rate - USA have about the same right now with Russia but just look at how it changed.
External Depts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
And on top of it :) 400bil deal with china without use of dolar, China - Iran deals without use of dollar, and soon new world currency organized by developing/growing countries Russia, China, India, Brasil.

we'll see how it goes ye? :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 03:16:06 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 03:08:42 pm
If you believe in god you will love it in america!!!! They are much much more fanatic about it than the russians :D
I know that, I have many american friends-believers, their government is not believers.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 03:19:29 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 03:01:02 pm
This is why RF is so effective. People get the impression that the West is shit, so they look for alternatives, so they bloat other more broken and unefficient systems to be more powerful than they actually are. People like Nebun are so scared of the evil US empire, that they blind themselves to bigger threats.

again u don't dig enough, all u can say is how much ur country is better then russia and won't consider anything else :)
u don't think about things like this
In u compare russia to ur country at 1998 it was so much worse then it is now, its catching up on all sides.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 03:28:00 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 03:16:06 pm
I know that, I have many american friends-believers, their government is not believers.

And thats very good! I'm extremely happy I live in a secular country :D Idk if I would want the priests to govern..

LOLOLOL Nebun!! Sorry for becoming a bit childish here. But if you go to the west, now to the east, now the west and back again! You will see pretty fucking clearly WHY those countries are worse off.

With the staggering amount of corruption and waste, the complete lack of any meritocracy, the lack of a free press to criticize it's own government and power people, the power abuse, it's simply no wonder why things are not moving like they should! You know very well how it is. The problem is your system, which is tailored for power abuse and corruption.

You need to throw it away and have democratic reforms, transparency, to make a society that is more fair for everyone. It's pointless to work, or pay taxes, when everyone who gets rich just steals and abuses the system. So everyone abuses the system..

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 03:48:59 pm
Dig deep enough? I think ive dug in pretty deep and I can say shittons more, but noones gonna read the textwall anyway. Your problem is that you dig wrong things. But good luck with that

What is up with you and the term "catching up"? Countries need very serius reforms to catch up in todays economy. Countries are not like vine, they dont get better simply by passing of time. If you think its like that than I suggest you start digging from the right places right now. Russia being better than what it was in 1998 is true, but its no excuse to anything and it really doesnt prove anything. Im quite sure Somalia is better now than back in 2012, but that doesnt say shit. Russias development is hindered mainly because of its leadership and crap foreign policy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:24:20 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 03:28:00 pm
And thats very good! I'm extremely happy I live in a secular country :D Idk if I would want the priests to govern..

LOLOLOL Nebun!! Sorry for becoming a bit childish here. But if you go to the west, now to the east, now the west and back again! You will see pretty fucking clearly WHY those countries are worse off.

With the staggering amount of corruption and waste, the complete lack of any meritocracy, the lack of a free press to criticize it's own government and power people, the power abuse, it's simply no wonder why things are not moving like they should! You know very well how it is. The problem is your system, which is tailored for power abuse and corruption.

You need to throw it away and have democratic reforms, transparency, to make a society that is more fair for everyone. It's pointless to work, or pay taxes, when everyone who gets rich just steals and abuses the system. So everyone abuses the system..

again no reply to facts just lots of text repeating ur statement where its currently better and thats all, nothing else
if u think ur press is free then i'm very surprised
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:32:48 pm
do u even read the stuff i post Tomek, u keep repeating how good its life in west now and how its worse in east
i told u about speed of growth right now comparing to ur country or US
and u keep hammering, if u go there and if u go back and blabla u will see difference

i don't deny difference, but difference now is a lot smaller then difference in 1998! Do u have a place inside of u for this though - except ass? :))
can u deny or prove to me with numbers and official information that its not as i state?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 04:40:48 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:32:48 pm
i don't deny difference, but difference now is a lot smaller then difference in 1998! Do u have a place inside of u for this though - except ass? :))
can u deny or prove to me with numbers and official information that its not as i state?

Just because a thing is slightly better than it was doesnt mean its good.
Have a place for this inside your thought or anus? Cause your whole logic is based upon "its not as bad as it used to be". And thats one damn flawed logic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 04:40:56 pm
Hahaha, Nebun going full retard so much  :lol:

And so as to keep the retard flowing, he even constantly multi-posts his retardation. And DonNicko believes in sky fairies... figures.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 05, 2015, 04:44:31 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 04:40:56 pm
Hahaha, Nebun going full retard so much  :lol:

And so as to keep the retard flowing, he even constantly multi-posts his retardation. And DonNicko believes in sky fairies... figures.

Don't fault someone for sky fairies belief. Only fault the fanatic. Don doesn't sound like a religous fanatic, but more of a devout person. Devout people >>>>> Fanatic Believer. Mainly because the Devout won't do more than public sermons on you while the fanatic will try and force you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:46:20 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 02:29:30 pm
I'm so sorry Nebun, but cheap gas will not bring your country forward.

Again stupid simplified statement. I've mentioned multiple things regarding effects on Moldova, and u simplified all to gas.

Xant didn't post any facts or info from anywhere at all, so as u tomek and others. U just speculate from sources of ur "HONEST MEDIA".

I provide u with dozen of info on economic growth and u throw statement of where its better right now. Like thats what i was talking about?

Is there anyone who visits this topic any close to being neutral with more clearer understanding?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:50:47 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 04:40:48 pm
Just because a thing is slightly better than it was doesnt mean its good.
Have a place for this inside your thought or anus? Cause your whole logic is based upon "its not as bad as it used to be". And thats one damn flawed logic.

my logic proven by the information i provided leads to the fact that Russia will eventually get way better then ur country.
how to explain this better to u, maybe mathematics will help, plus visual aid

lets say you here
--------------------------------------------------------YOU--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
moving at the speed of 20km/h
and russia is here
-----Russia--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
moving at 40km/h
at some point it will pass by u and will end up in front
is that simple enough for u?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:53:23 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on April 05, 2015, 04:44:31 pm
Don't fault someone for sky fairies belief. Only fault the fanatic. Don doesn't sound like a religous fanatic, but more of a devout person. Devout people >>>>> Fanatic Believer. Mainly because the Devout won't do more than public sermons on you while the fanatic will try and force you.

I agree.
Though i don't believe in god.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 04:55:54 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:46:20 pm
Is there anyone who visits this topic any close to being neutral with more clearer understanding?

Ever thought that mybe you are just wrong? Which is why everyone elses understanding here seems very off to you.

Lolwat? Russia will not eventually get way better then my country. Thats just not possible. :lol: Not with the road they have chosen. Clearly you are the one who doesnt know mathematics and simplifies stuff way too much. You dont know jackshit about Russia or my country. You didnt provide anyone with any numbers and your opinions are soley based on nonexsistant facts taken out of your own arse. Im not gonna reply to you anymore. Your last post was just so retarded. It pretty much defies common sense.

You provide no facts, yet you come here claiming it is us who base our opinions on nothing. Farewell sir. Nebun, your "logic", has no logic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:05:42 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 04:55:54 pm
Ever thought that mybe you are just wrong? Which is why everyone elses understanding here seems very off to you.

Lolwat? Russia will not eventually get way better then my country. Thats just not possible. :lol: Not with the road they have chosen. Clearly you are the one who doesnt know mathematics and simplifies stuff way too much. You dont know jackshit about Russia or my country. You didnt provide anyone with any numbers and your opinions are soley based on nonexsistant facts taken out of your own arse. Im not gonna reply to you anymore. Your last post was just so retarded. It pretty much defies common sense.

You provide no facts, yet you come here claiming it is us who base our opinions on nothing. Farewell sir. Nebun, your "logic", has no logic.

didn't I, did u read my posts???? did u miss all the links from official sites with stats? did u see graphs? u think i drew them?
cmon show me alternative statistics! prove me wrong with numbers of progression  of different countries over the years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 05:10:36 pm
Nebun, ok about growth. I think your argument is extremely simplistic.

In the west, we are pretty much done developing our countries. It gets harder and harder to get better. Our highways and railways are mostly built. Out cities are mostly developed. People have a living standard and possibilities that are mostly limited by their own efforts, though of course, it can be better. Our politicians are arguing about relatively minute matters on how to do things better, but they are in fact mostly in agreement.

Of course, RF, China, and most of developing world has enormous potential. Even Poland, where I live. But as most of the kinks in society are getting ironed out, it gets harder and harder to make it better. There you go, explanation for why we see more growth in RF than in the rest of europe atm.

If you want to look at performance of country vs. country, you have to look at countries that were similar in terms of performance, say from 1991, and then compare.

Compare growth in Poland or Estonia vs Ukraine or Russia from 1991 to now. Take into account where the growth comes from. In RF it's mostly gas and oil..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:11:52 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJyolbpoCSY
This guy on the video MUST BE WORKING FOR PUTIN
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 05:14:44 pm
That guy has been chosen by CCTV as their source... :D

Also, answer my comment on growth, since I answered your question.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:20:21 pm
Maybe if you post 100 times within 2 minutes for a week, Nebun, people will start believing your Putin fiction. Not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:21:26 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 05:10:36 pm
Nebun, ok about growth. I think your argument is extremely simplistic.

In the west, we are pretty much done developing our countries. It gets harder and harder to get better. Our highways and railways are mostly built. Out cities are mostly developed. People have a living standard and possibilities that are mostly limited by their own efforts, though of course, it can be better. Our politicians are arguing about relatively minute matters on how to do things better, but they are in fact mostly in agreement.

Of course, RF, China, and most of developing world has enormous potential. Even Poland, where I live. But as most of the kinks in society are getting ironed out, it gets harder and harder to make it better. There you go, explanation for why we see more growth in RF than in the rest of europe atm.

I partly agree about it being more difficult to push economy when its hight. But growth doesn't have it top or limit. USA growth was constant for huge amount of time. When can u decide that u at the maximum? I think its continues process that never ends and through history changing all the time.
And when country doesn't have any more potential to grow, usually its starting to fall.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 05, 2015, 05:22:05 pm
You're delusional if you think China has more to gain from siding with Russia than the US on the geopolitical arena. Maybe you've forgotten about the huge underpopulated chunk of "Manchuria" Russia appropriated from the japanese, just north of a massively overpopulated country that outnumbers Russia's population 10 to 1. Or the increasing number of resource extraction colonies set up by chinese and north koreans all over eastern Siberia. They already outnumber the few russian descendents of exiles, adventurers, prospectors and colonists. Jeez, what happens to a particular territory when a neighboring country has historical irredentist claims and can pretend aggressive expansion is some sort of noble protection of it's ethnic brethren? Let's ask Ukraine, i'm sorry, "Novorussia". Just like Vladivostok = Hǎishēnwǎi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:22:17 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 04:50:47 pm
my logic proven by the information i provided leads to the fact that Russia will eventually get way better then ur country.
how to explain this better to u, maybe mathematics will help, plus visual aid

lets say you here
--------------------------------------------------------YOU--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
moving at the speed of 20km/h
and russia is here
-----Russia--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
moving at 40km/h
at some point it will pass by u and will end up in front
is that simple enough for u?

I didn't notice this post at first.

Prime example of how Nebun's understanding of economics is at the level of a child. Just hilarious.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:22:27 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:20:21 pm
Maybe if you post 100 times within 2 minutes for a week, Nebun, people will start believing your Putin fiction. Not.

more stupid meaningless shit from u YEY :)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:24:19 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:22:17 pm
I didn't notice this post at first.

Prime example of how Nebun's understanding of economics is at the level of a child. Just hilarious.

i've tried to explain it on ur and tovis level xant
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:25:46 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:24:19 pm
i've tried to explain it on ur and tovis level xant
And your explanation just proves you have no idea what you're talking about in the least.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:29:29 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 05, 2015, 05:22:05 pm
You're delusional if you think China has more to gain from siding with Russia than the US on the geopolitical arena. Maybe you've forgotten about the huge underpopulated chunk of "Manchuria" Russia appropriated from the japanese, just north of a massively overpopulated country that outnumbers Russia's population 10 to 1. Or the increasing number of resource extraction colonies set up by chinese and north koreans all over eastern Siberia. They already outnumber the few russian descendents of exiles, adventurers, prospectors and colonists. Jeez, what happens to a particular territory when a neighboring country has historical irredentist claims and can pretend aggressive expansion is some sort of noble protection of it's ethnic brethren? Let's ask Ukraine, i'm sorry, "Novorussia". Just like Vladivostok = Hǎishēnwǎi.

well i think they take in account other things, like resources and the fact that instead of having one master of the house in the world, they could be their own masters and do their own things.
and to be honest if USA currency wasn't used anymore for international trade it wouldn't survive

also this is from Former World Bank President https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a0zhc1y_Ns
he explains shift in economy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:33:58 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:25:46 pm
And your explanation just proves you have no idea what you're talking about in the least.

ok and Former World Bank President and Ex General of UN who was in command of all forces and so as other people like Rothschild. Your own people. Sure they too stupid to know anything about it. U know better
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 05:34:09 pm
I have to agree with Oberyn.. Russia's real long term threat is not Europe or US, it's China.

Eventually, humanity will have to dig for resources in the Tundra, probably around the same time China's population becomes high standard consumers. In the end Russians have MUCH more in common with EU/US culturally, and EU/US are as well much more stable and predictable trading partners. (Since they are slow ass democracies.)

About currency.. Plenty of people are talking about the demise of the dollar. Truth is there is no real alternative. (Maybe bitcoin one day, but they would probably not allow it to happen.)

It's better to have a reserve currency in a relatively stable and responsible democracy + huge market like the US, than letting russian or chinese dictators print another currency at will. It's just the least worse option, like many things in the world. You can criticize the dollar system all day, and I would agree, but its pointless if you don't have a credible alternative idea to replace it with. If not US, then WHO THE FUCK?  :wink:

and please edit your posts in stead of spamming new ones..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:42:02 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:33:58 pm
ok and Former World Bank President and Ex General of UN who was in command of all forces and so as other people like Rothschild. Your own people. Sure they too stupid to know anything about it. U know better
Putin said he agrees with me that you're stupid. Your own people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:44:22 pm
in ideal world russia would be best with everyone :))) trading their resources, but in the world where US trying to spread its interest over russia and other countries u have to find new friends.
IF we talking about current situation. Russia doesn't gain anything from US, their trade was too low. EU trade and deals that had with Russia on the other hand are important. I'd prefer to see EU leaning towards Russian and not US. They do have a lot to trade between each other.
Now with all this sanctions all the trade was coming from EU is now taken over by Brazil and Chilli and other countries. Brazil selling all the meet that Russia use to get from Australia. Chilli fish and other stuff. Some other SA countries provide fruits that used to come from Greece. So even if Russia and EU will become friendly again i don't see how EU can return to russian market, since it will be occupied by India, China and SA countries.
It also very profitable to sell gas to europe for russia. Russia took measures and sell more to other countries, like china, but more pipes will be built within 5 years and i'm not sure if it will fully cover loosing EU as buyer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:45:47 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:42:02 pm
Putin said he agrees with me that you're stupid. Your own people.

ye, show me proof :) stupid shit head
all i provided u here are from ur own countries, i didn't provide u with any russian news or resources.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 05:48:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 05:42:02 pm
Putin said he agrees with me that you're stupid. Your own people.
very strong argument  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 06:05:52 pm
Nebun has 0 idea on how economy works. I could very logically pinpoint that everything he just said, is false. But that would be a gigantic wall of text and he'd still deny it and continue to be dumb.

Remarakable, how politicalviews can completely rob a person of common sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 06:09:42 pm
I'd also prefer Russia trading and cooperating closer with EU. Imo the best for Russia would be if they took some of EU's ideas of how to run a country, how to organize society, but kept control of their resources. Just like I'm pro EU, but I think it's better for Norway to stay outside with our Fish and Oil. Russia and Norway are primarily exporting raw materials and opening the market to the EU would probably lead to unfavorable exploitation.

Now, I realize no politician would win an election in Russia that says: "It's all our own fault! we need to change our ways!" But my hope is that there will be someone leading Russia that is smart enough to realize the bitter truth, and do something about the rotten system.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 06:10:49 pm
I'm economist with highest degree. I was best student in university. And I can say nobody knows how economy works, except people who manage it with wars, huge amount of money and so on. Current economy is the biggest lie. And this is true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 06:13:23 pm
I agree Nicko. Economy is very shifting and volatile. But everything that guy claims, is just wrong. Really read his words, process his ideas and you would see it too. Just because economy is hard to understand doesnt mean its logicless and that there is no wrong quesses. There are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 06:18:06 pm
Just one global catastrophe, and economy will change. Now Russia spend a lot of money to make selfproduction better. If there wouldn't no war. Russia will grow. We have different mentality. And EU doesn't suit us at all. That what EU and USA can't understand
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 06:18:28 pm
Well, economy works when people can trade and do stuff better than others. If I'm good at making the wooden part of spears, and you are good at making the tips, we trade and we both profit.

Really sucks for the one that can produce only 3 tips of spears in the time it takes you to make 5. Eventually, he will fall behind and perhaps find something he's better at. Also, it is hardcore for countries to be exposed to higher competition before they are ready. Probably the main reason RF suffered so much in the 90s and still are very protective. Shock doctrine was a massive disaster, although I believe the intention was good.

Anyway, sooner or later, things have to change.. You can't keep doing things same old way forever, the people will get sick of the stagnation.

atm In Russia, you can probably answer this better than me, but if you are best at producing spearheads, someone will come and take the business from you, with the help of a corrupt judge, and run it to shits. So there's really little incentive to get good at making them in the first place.. 

Look at how expensive Sochi was :P

This makes whole society rotten from the top down!! When everything is affected by incompetence, the guy transporting the spearheads, the shop that sells them, the incompetence of the users..you can multiply those ineficciencies and what took 10 man hours to do in the west takes suddenly 100 in Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 06:34:29 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 05:45:47 pm
ye, show me proof :) stupid shit head
all i provided u here are from ur own countries, i didn't provide u with any russian news or resources.
You show me proof you stupid poo poo head.
I wasn't aware I was from several countries. Learn something new every day when dealing with Russian FAS cases.

Quote from: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 05:48:25 pm
very strong argument  :D

Seriously, you Russians make it too easy -- that's exactly my point. Unless you were TRYING to burn Nebun, in which case well done.

Quote from: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 06:10:49 pm
I'm economist with highest degree. I was best student in university. And I can say nobody knows how economy works, except people who manage it with wars, huge amount of money and so on. Current economy is the biggest lie. And this is true.
And yet your English is at the level of a thirteen year old. Either you're lying or Russian educational system is even worse than I thought.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 06:38:38 pm
Quote from: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 06:18:28 pm
Well, economy works when people can trade and do stuff better than others. If I'm good at making the wooden part of spears, and you are good at making the tips, we trade and we both profit.

Really sucks for the one that can produce only 3 tips of spears in the time it takes you to make 5. Eventually, he will fall behind and perhaps find something he's better at. Also, it is hardcore for countries to be exposed to higher competition before they are ready. Probably the main reason RF suffered so much in the 90s and still are very protective. Shock doctrine was a massive disaster, although I believe the intention was good.

Anyway, sooner or later, things have to change.. You can't keep doing things same old way forever, the people will get sick of the stagnation.

atm In Russia, you can probably answer this better than me, but if you are best at producing spearheads, someone will come and take the business from you, with the help of a corrupt judge, and run it to shits. So there's really little incentive to get good at making them in the first place.. 

Look at how expensive Sochi was :P

This makes whole society rotten from the top down!! When everything is affected by incompetence, the guy transporting the spearheads, the shop that sells them, the incompetence of the users..you can multiply those ineficciencies and what took 10 man hours to do in the west takes suddenly 100 in Russia.

first of all u can't change population and mentality in seconds, it takes a lot of time and u don't understand our mentality, and if any western president become president of russia he would either suicide or be killed :)) and he wouldn't change anything

About Soci, obviously cost will be much hire then profit, but u look further - they improved city and build new infrastructure partly compensated by income + olympic fund
Now this city is fine and Russia didn't have to pay for all of this by herself. + increased popularity among its population, if more russian people will go to soci in summer its better for economy. I don't expect much turism from other countries though :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 06:40:54 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 06:34:29 pm
And yet your English is at the level of a thirteen year old. Either you're lying or Russian educational system is even worse than I thought.
I learnt english by myself. Also I know turkish and tatar languages. It is enough for me if you can understand me. English in our schools really suck, but other lessons are good. Compared it with my american friends, they are too far :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 06:43:56 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 05, 2015, 06:05:52 pm
Nebun has 0 idea on how economy works. I could very logically pinpoint that everything he just said, is false. But that would be a gigantic wall of text and he'd still deny it and continue to be dumb.

Remarakable, how politicalviews can completely rob a person of common sense.

I could, I would - so far u didn't say anything real with no confirmation from anywhere.

I could explain about other civilizations in universe, but i just won't do it, eh u not worth this wall of text
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 06:45:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 06:40:54 pm
I learnt english by myself. Also I know turkish and tatar languages. It is enough for me if you can understand me. English in our schools really suck, but other lessons are good. Compared it with my american friends, they are too far :D
If your schools can't even teach something as simple as English (the only skill you can demonstrate coincidentally) then I doubt their ability to teach anything else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 06:47:51 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 06:45:02 pm
If your schools can't even teach something as simple as English (the only skill you can demonstrate coincidentally) then I doubt their ability to teach anything else.
lol Xant if you are not trolling then I feel sorry for you
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 06:58:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 06:47:51 pm
lol Xant if you are not trolling then I feel sorry for you
I feel twice, no, three times as sorry for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 07:03:28 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 06:58:26 pm
I feel twice, no, three times as sorry for you.

u must be a stupid kid :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 05, 2015, 07:03:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 05, 2015, 06:58:26 pm
I feel twice, no, three times as sorry for you.
OK  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 07:07:59 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 07:03:28 pm
u must be a stupid kid :)
NO u )))  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 07:08:14 pm
Well I gave Vovka some good reading while he is at work :) Time to leave the retard land
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 05, 2015, 07:10:48 pm
Quote from: Nebun on April 05, 2015, 07:08:14 pm
Well I gave Vovka some good reading while he is at work :) Time to leave the retard land
You're moving into a proper western country? Good for you!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 05, 2015, 10:53:59 pm
Originally wrote a whole bunch about these and economies, and then closed the wrong tab. :| So I'll just post them by themselves without as much commentary.

Also, as far as economics go, Russia is OVERLY reliant on Gas exports(60% of exports).

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/europe/europe/2015-02/10/c_127477062.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/30/us-russia-crisis-cenbank-rates-idUSKBN0L311Q20150130
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-13/russia-2014-gas-exports-seen-lowest-in-decade-as-nations-cut-use

Also:
OPEC hates Russia since Russia ruins OPEC margins>OPEC lowers gas prices to smother Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 05, 2015, 11:21:09 pm
Ok im outta here :)

GLHF!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 08, 2015, 09:12:47 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 08, 2015, 02:17:45 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32137302
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 09, 2015, 09:56:47 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on April 10, 2015, 12:33:19 am
http://qz.com/376743/how-norway-lost-control-of-its-own-secret-500-million-arctic-navy-base/

pretty dumb
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on April 10, 2015, 12:46:07 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on April 10, 2015, 12:33:19 am
http://qz.com/376743/how-norway-lost-control-of-its-own-secret-500-million-arctic-navy-base/

pretty dumb

With hindsight, sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 10, 2015, 01:02:28 am
Yeah, who could possibly have guessed that Norway would ever have an interest in mantaining some sort of presence in a strategically important area.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 10, 2015, 04:55:19 am
Guys, i left this thread, but I will comment on this specific topic..

Yeah, it was stupid, but the Norwegian army has been transformed from fighting russians to fighting terrorists. What use is some sub pens in the arctic if you want to fight terrorists rite?? Russia is our friend rite??? rite??

Turns out Russia is convinced that NATO is out to get them. (Even though there has been massive disarmament on NATO's side.)

Me.. idk how much help some sub pens are in a war with Russia.  Perhaps Einstein was right: (And I mean Einstein not einstein.)
(click to show/hide)

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”


Any full on war between NATO and Russia will be the last war, and very stupid from any point of view. It's unthinkable, unless a very insane and suicidal madman is pushing the button. Putin is not insane, and certainly not suicidal. In todays situation, conventional war between nuclear superpowers can only happen on a small scale before escalating, and therefore it must be fought via proxies like Ukraine.

A war in Norway, NATO territory or Russian territory is extremely unlikely.

Nothing new, just like in the cold war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 10, 2015, 07:44:45 am
Its kinda odd that Russia thinks that NATO is out to get them. The really crappy part is that majority of Russias trainingexercises near natos borders are basically invasiondrills, with fuckton of soldiers and equipment + fully armed missiles pointed at some of natos allies. Natos trainingexercises near Russia are generally mainly joint defence drills with significantly less troops and equipment + defensive missileshields.

Beond just expanding eastward, I just dont see how nato is threatening Russia more than it is threatening them....
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 10, 2015, 08:00:19 am
"Russia" isn't actually afraid of that or they wouldn't have dared to do the Ukraine thing etc. It's just some red herring for their own citizens so they don't notice all the things wrong within their borders. A very classic move used by many dictators in the past.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on April 10, 2015, 08:24:15 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 10, 2015, 07:44:45 am
Its kinda odd that Russia thinks that NATO is out to get them. The really crappy part is that majority of Russias trainingexercises near natos borders are basically invasiondrills...

back then us were told that this comes from lessons of the past wars. the main idea is to bring the war as fast as possible to the territory of the attacker.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 10, 2015, 08:57:16 am
Quote from: Xant on April 10, 2015, 08:00:19 am
"Russia" isn't actually afraid of that or they wouldn't have dared to do the Ukraine thing etc. It's just some red herring for their own citizens so they don't notice all the things wrong within their borders. A very classic move used by many dictators in the past.
Looks like Russia is a red herring for whole europe nowadays  :P By the way, every day I feel more and more Scandinavia as part of the Russian world, illegally seized from my ancestors

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-nordic-nations-baltic-ukraine-/26948181.html  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on April 10, 2015, 10:46:03 am
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on April 10, 2015, 12:33:19 am
http://qz.com/376743/how-norway-lost-control-of-its-own-secret-500-million-arctic-navy-base/

pretty dumb

Brag: I was deep down in that naval base when it was still operational, very james bond villain type base. Subs and smaller surfaceships lined up in the pens.

The navy was severly downsized recently.
Makes sense, surfaceships are just high value targets that is easily taken out in a conflict with an opponent more sophisticated than somali pirates.
Subs used to  make sense, staying hidden stealth and all that jazz. Harder and harder to do that anymore.

That said, shoulda mothballed it imo. Never know when you need a base like that. Takes a lot of ressorces to build a new one. And not instantly available.
The income made from the sale and future revenue from any commercial enterprise this sale makes is negligible.
Should have just mothballed it for later.

Russians might gain some intel on general nato defenceconstruction, since it is prob of the same spec as other "secret bases".
Spying some blueprints, sketches etc is not the same as sending you own crew in to do exact measurements.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 10, 2015, 12:04:58 pm
Once visited an old WW2 sub... jeez, that shit is depressing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Torost on April 10, 2015, 12:10:22 pm

alarm!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 10, 2015, 12:27:18 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 10, 2015, 08:57:16 am
Looks like Russia is a red herring for whole europe nowadays  :P By the way, every day I feel more and more Scandinavia as part of the Russian world, illegally seized from my ancestors

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-nordic-nations-baltic-ukraine-/26948181.html  :P
"Defense" cooperation. Nordic countries are finally going to take back what is rightfully theirs (Rus is what the Northmen were called and Rurik was a Finn). Ukraine was a Nordic plot to distract Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 10, 2015, 03:18:00 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 10, 2015, 12:27:18 pm
Rurik was a Finn
Ahah than insignificant nation, the grander its achievements in the past, and preferably so far in the past that did not have any accurate evidence XD
I hope I understood correctly, and this is was a joke and not fact from finnish history books XD

Quote from: Xant on April 10, 2015, 12:27:18 pm
Ukraine was a Nordic plot to distract Russia.
btw known fact that the Ukrainians migrated north, they are also taught the barbarians of the north how to to build ships and headed their campaigns. so I'm sure you're on the third Ukrainian or more
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 10, 2015, 04:11:23 pm
Thomek, do you honestly think that Europe will never be touched by war again, and if it is it will be the end of civilization as we know it? That's exactly what people thought after WW1. It's so fucking stupid. A mix of naivete and arrogance, as if we had somehow reached a new phase of history. We really never learn our lesson do we. I think there must be some sort of collective psychological reason why humans are stupid enough to always ignore the next coming conflict, over and over and over again throughout all of history. We aren't any different from our ancestors, I'm sorry to tell you. And our future isn't going to be composed of flowers and rainbows and eternal peace forever, no matter how many blind idiots believe it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on April 10, 2015, 04:21:48 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 10, 2015, 07:44:45 am
Its kinda odd that Russia thinks that NATO is out to get them. The really crappy part is that majority of Russias trainingexercises near natos borders are basically invasiondrills, with fuckton of soldiers and equipment + fully armed missiles pointed at some of natos allies. Natos trainingexercises near Russia are generally mainly joint defence drills with significantly less troops and equipment + defensive missileshields.

Beond just expanding eastward, I just dont see how nato is threatening Russia more than it is threatening them....

'Defense' from a power that has spent most of it's active military time in occupation is threatening. You think the United States would tolerate Russian 'defense' exercises in Mexico?

I'm not defending Russia by any means. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there. To assume NATO is blameless, however, requires a little self-deception.

I am merely pointing out that training exercises near borders are usually for the neighbor's benefit. Notice that American forces in South Korea have more large scale 'wargames' than most other American commands.

That's a repeated message for North Korea. There's no reason to publicize these wargames as much as they do, besides that fact.

Oberyn: we'd learn if people stopped dying of old age. I mean, that's also part of the reason societies are allowed to grow (if everyone alive in the 19th century was alive now, I assume the social structure of society would not have lead to a 'widening circle') but I imagine people who've experience a war between relatively equal powers would be less likely to repeat that mistake.

Then again, there was World War II after World War I so maybe people just don't learn regardless.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 10, 2015, 04:33:39 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 10, 2015, 04:11:23 pm
Thomek, do you honestly think that Europe will never be touched by war again, and if it is it will be the end of civilization as we know it? That's exactly what people thought after WW1. It's so fucking stupid. A mix of naivete and arrogance, as if we had somehow reached a new phase of history. We really never learn our lesson do we. I think there must be some sort of collective psychological reason why humans are stupid enough to always ignore the next coming conflict, over and over and over again throughout all of history. We aren't any different from our ancestors, I'm sorry to tell you. And our future isn't going to be composed of flowers and rainbows and eternal peace forever, no matter how many blind idiots believe it.

I would completely agree with you if it weren't for Nukes.

As banal as it may sound, there really is no winner in a nuclear war, thus dissuading any direct action between Nuclear armed countries. The war, if it were to happen would have to be moved into proxy territories, waged by proxies. How many such territories are left in Europe?

I also don't believe in intercepting/protection from nukes. It is simply much easier to create a more capable delivery system than to create a defensive one. Already, government reaction chain time is a huge problem..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 10, 2015, 04:50:01 pm
Again, people thought the exact same thing after WW1. The Great War was incredibly devastating, obviously a new war would be the end of civilization as we know it, just bad for everyone involved, therefore war is now unthinkable. Why do you think the appeasement and Chamberlain "peace in our time" happened? Do you truly think, given the scope of history and what we know of human collectives, that never again will there be any reason or utility for military capability beyond the umbrella of nukes? That there will never again be conflict, death and war in any territory in Europe?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 10, 2015, 05:03:51 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 10, 2015, 03:18:00 pm
Ahah than insignificant nation, the grander its achievements in the past, and preferably so far in the past that did not have any accurate evidence XD
I hope I understood correctly, and this is was a joke and not fact from finnish history books XD
It's a genetic fact, you might learn about it in half a century or so when knowledge of DNA and genetics makes its slow and ponderous way into Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 10, 2015, 05:30:39 pm
A lot of what is considered north-western Russia today was territory of finno-ugric tribes. There was no complete population replacement, but most got slavicized and absorbed over time, and the division between slavic and vologda russian genetically is still there, even though it is no great difference relatively.  There are also links to other nordic genetic clades. The finnish linguistic isolation from it's neighbors is not represented in the genetic data of the population.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/the-genetic-heritage-of-europes-north/

I have no idea about Rurik being a finn however. In terms of heritage it's not that far fetched, but ethnolinguistically everything I have read/heard about Rurik points to him being scandinavian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 10, 2015, 06:38:27 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on April 10, 2015, 05:30:39 pm
A lot of what is considered north-western Russia today was territory of finno-ugric tribes. There was no complete population replacement, but most got slavicized and absorbed over time, and the division between slavic and vologda russian genetically is still there, even though it is no great difference relatively.  There are also links to other nordic genetic clades. The finnish linguistic isolation from it's neighbors is not represented in the genetic data of the population.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/11/the-genetic-heritage-of-europes-north/

I have no idea about Rurik being a finn however. In terms of heritage it's not that far fetched, but ethnolinguistically everything I have read/heard about Rurik points to him being scandinavian.
From his wiki page

"Contrary to the Norman theory of the origin of the Kievan Rus' state, N1c1 is not widely found in Scandinavian countries, but is overwhelmingly found among Baltic and Finnish ethnicities. The N1c1 haplotype possess the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 10, 2015, 06:50:34 pm
So yeah, ethnolinguistically swedish. There is genetic variation inside Finland, between coastal finns and those of the interior. The coastal ones have larger admixtures of scandinavian/german, for obvious geographic reasons. The linked article makes that particular point, that the rurikid itinerary picked up finnish heritage along the way. Genetic heritage is not the same as cultural, is the point, and different heritages can overlap and have different proportions depending on the area. The same way anatolian turks have large admixtures of greek heritage depending on geography (especially coastal), but it is not something that is politicized or accepted in any way. And vice versa in Greece. As if greeks and turks did not interract with each other genetically and culturally during the hundreds of years of Rum and Ottoman rule, and remained distinct and separate all the way to the early 20th century population exchange, when greeks were ethnically cleansed from turkish territory and vice versa. The genetic data makes clear that this is a fantasy. The turkish migration into annatolia shows relatively small genetic impact, the conclusion is that it was mostly elite replacement and acculturation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 10, 2015, 07:38:57 pm
@Oberyn

I simply don't buy the wwi/wwii comparison. If artillery and the machinegun upped the killing potential 100fold, and didn't stop wwii, the nuclear potential is perhaps again a million times more devastating. It is not hypothetical, it is fact. Besides the germans believed they had "cracked" the stalemate of wwi, which gave them faith they could pull it off, and this is crucial:

To start a territorial war, you need to believe it is winnable. A nuclear war between superpowers is not winnable. A new term to replace phyrric victory would have to show up if someone "won" such a war. To back me up you can look at the whole of the cold war. War in Europe didn't happen, even though relations were much colder than they are now.

So if there will be war in europe it has to happen in a way that is not escalating into nuclear war. It is a question about where the threshold to Armageddon is. So anything below that threshold goes. Anything approaching it does not. Then we can discuss where that threshold really is. The Baltic states? maybe. But not worth it. Poland? Definitely not. It has to be Ukraine or possibly Belarus, as well as the Russian puppet regimes in Georgia and Moldova.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 11, 2015, 04:54:31 am
But, you know, MAD is only a consequence of a direct bidirectional nuclear exchange. Not of a "native separatist uprising", as is happening in Ukraine and could just as well happen anywhere in Eastern Europe.
Nukes are only a guarantee of a nuclear exchange not happening, the rest is basically a bluff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 11, 2015, 06:50:57 am
Quote from: Thomek on April 10, 2015, 07:38:57 pm
To start a territorial war, you need to believe it is winnable. A nuclear war between superpowers is not winnable. A new term to replace phyrric victory would have to show up if someone "won" such a war.
Quote from: [ptx] on April 11, 2015, 04:54:31 am
Nukes are only a guarantee of a nuclear exchange not happening, the rest is basically a bluff.
In my opinion, this is why Russia does not like the deployment of a missile defense system near its borders. Once some American general with half a brain thinks that NATO is able to knock down enough Russian missiles, and this fact alone, without the war itself sufficient to dictate their terms
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 11, 2015, 08:52:30 am
"Half a brain American general" deciding if or when to shoot nukes. And im full of shit? Please, even im not that biased.

Vuvka pls...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 11, 2015, 09:21:49 am
Well, Vovka's point is actually pretty legit.

Once one side is convinced that their defensive technology is good enough, they might be willing to risk it -- even if they're not sure. Which is why better defensive stuff can actually lead to a nuclear war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 11, 2015, 09:59:03 am
Its logical, but its just a discussionpoint because we have nothing better to discuss, so we are just throwing that idea into the ring aswell. Im not saying it a bad point. No you are correct. But if you think about it, pretty much everything can lead to a nuclear war. Im pretty sure if one side is convinced that their assault technology and tactics are state of the art they will probably be willing to risk it too.Better assault stuff can lead to nuclear war aswell. So basically the 2 things lead to same results. One abit more, one a little less. Which kinda makes this point...well lacking.  Everything is relative. Its just that whats more likely based on facts.

Its unlikely that someone predicts their defence so good that they are willing to risk it on attack. Cause todays militaryequipment thats not even nuclear is extremely devastating and requires very good planning to counter. This isnt african tribal AK47 wars we are discussing here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 11, 2015, 01:58:20 pm
Again, a missile shield is totally uncredible as a deterrent agains RF.

The RF is not protesting on military reasons, just politics because the opportunity was offered. I don't blame the protests, it is legitimate from political pov, but without any real military justification.

You would probably need at least 2 missiles per ICBM to be sure to catch them all, and you'd need missile launchers in more places than just Poland. And you would need hundreds on hundreds. Besides, the anti missile shield would probably be taken out first with short range missiles. A missile shield in Europe does nothing to stop SLBM's to fire from the ocean with 15 min? reaction time etc etc..

Hypothetically, an ABM shield is possible, but it would require VAST amounts of resources. Probably much more resources than the ICBM's would cost in the first place. It's just physics. It's nigh on impossible to intercept ICBM's because their speed is already bordering on whats physically possible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 11, 2015, 02:54:14 pm
Thats not how Red Alert showed it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 11, 2015, 03:47:46 pm
Yuri with his mind control doesn't count  :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 11, 2015, 03:52:04 pm
Germans about Kosovo, german propoganda :D
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on April 11, 2015, 07:47:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 11, 2015, 03:52:04 pm
Germans about Kosovo, german propoganda :D
(click to show/hide)
[/quote]

yepp, thats how it works. ohh, and its a documentation of the state tv.

a while ago i have found a nice link on wikipedia.
ten commandments of propaganda (in german) (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Prinzipien_der_Kriegspropaganda) of anne morelli, a belgian left wing historian.
a shorter english version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Morelli)

the main criticism of her book is about the simple "do not trust anyone" approach and that she pick only some fitting examples.
anyway, it provides some basic filters for todays news and lots of the points coincide with my own experiences.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on April 11, 2015, 08:52:57 pm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/missile/etc/cron.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 11, 2015, 08:58:16 pm
what the hell
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on April 11, 2015, 10:13:12 pm
does anyone else see the forum at the bottom all jacked up? or is it just me?  have we killed the forum? mod dead?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on April 11, 2015, 10:18:27 pm
Yeah it starts with Mala's post, possibly some broken bracket in his message
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 12, 2015, 06:14:14 am
I thought we will reach 1000 pages, but this topic is broken now.
BTW as I know after bombardment by integrated uranium in Serbia, children blood cancer disease increased 18 times, also after using agent orange in Vietnam a huge damage was made to children and soil. So this people were asking for compensation
And USA and сourt in the Hague said
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 12, 2015, 06:52:33 am
US didn't ratify Den Haag anyway - just like Russia or Iran.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 12, 2015, 02:57:02 pm
According to inspect somehow half the pages content is outside the bodyarea div. Maybe someone had enough of this shit thread so the devs tried to pull the plug on it, so they just screwed around a little bit with the html. Seems like really odd thing to just happen by accident. Also why isnt the page-section element an inline-block?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 12, 2015, 03:49:51 pm
666

There, problem solved
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on April 12, 2015, 03:50:13 pm
Oh so it wasn't just me. Lets post so much it goes away!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on April 12, 2015, 04:26:59 pm
In before tobi uses this as evidence of CIA intervention
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 13, 2015, 12:19:28 am
Nicko. Just curious what you think about Motorola's statement that he killed 15 captives? Is he a true terrorist just like we're used to see or is it fake or is it sarcasm?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on April 13, 2015, 03:02:00 am
Wait wait wait...

When that does, it should be on the actually Naigangnidborb. 15 capitives? I tried consulting my logician friend, but he said no. But I myself honestly didn't expect that.

When this sort of shiz happens, there really is no correct answer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 13, 2015, 03:05:24 am
Oh no, you didn't. Butthurt Dave will report you for ruining this thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on April 13, 2015, 03:27:08 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 13, 2015, 03:05:24 am
Oh no, you didn't. Butthurt Dave will report you for ruining this thread.

I edited the post, the code bug is gone now.

But I'm bored.

Let's add some filler, shall we:

Now, when adding, writing, or typing filler, it is always good to make it sound like there's no end, but it's also important so that if a person was to quickly glance at the paragraph, sentence, or simply the wall of text of filler words, it would sound intelligent, as not to arouse suspicion. Filler is a beautiful thing. It fills. It gives meaning to something useless by disguising it with even more uselessness, but is harder to decipher with a quick glance. Would a forum post with no letters, words or anything have any meaning? Better to add filler. A forum post stuffed with words, even useless words, would be more visually appealing than an empty forum post. The post would become...non-useless, so to speak. But despite of the very filler's glory, it only has one use: obviously, to fill. Filler folders can be put in spaces on your computer where you deleted a file/program/document, or filler text or words could be put in an essay or piece of writing to make it longer; words like "like" (put once before an adjective), and "very" (put multiple times after an adjective) will go unnoticed as indiscriminate under some eyes, justifying the use of such filler, despite obvious scorn, disapproval or criticism that will come your way from more intelligent creatures capable of noticing filler and outlawing them is places such as classrooms, or outlawing the very presence of filler in formal text documents, or in some very unlucky cases, essays. But still, for such a diverse and amazing thing such as filler to have only one purpose and yet still be as fascinating as it is, well, it boggles the mind. It's a very intriguing concept, filler.

Please note that filler must be grammatically correct, so that it can easily be read and therefor easily bore someone. Make filler so it can cause other adverse such as: anger, sadness, EXTREME boredom, depression, and/or suicide tendencies.

Filler is a beautiful thing.   
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on April 13, 2015, 03:46:13 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 12, 2015, 02:57:02 pm
According to inspect somehow half the pages content is outside the bodyarea div. Maybe someone had enough of this shit thread so the devs tried to pull the plug on it, so they just screwed around a little bit with the html. Seems like really odd thing to just happen by accident. Also why isnt the page-section element an inline-block?

You see, quoting a spoiler with a youtube vid in it will mess up the code of the page. Mala did exactly that: he quoted a guy's youtube video in a spoiler.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 13, 2015, 08:21:29 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 13, 2015, 12:19:28 am
Nicko. Just curious what you think about Motorola's statement that he killed 15 captives? Is he a true terrorist just like we're used to see or is it fake or is it sarcasm?
Didn't hear about it, I will try to find something.
Here a link with your brothers
(click to show/hide)
Just curious what you think
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 13, 2015, 08:55:09 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 11, 2015, 03:52:04 pm
Germans about Kosovo, german propoganda :D
(click to show/hide)
[/quote]

Quote from: Mala on April 11, 2015, 07:47:52 pm
yepp, thats how it works. ohh, and its a documentation of the state tv.

a while ago i have found a nice link on wikipedia.
ten commandments of propaganda (in german) (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Prinzipien_der_Kriegspropaganda) of anne morelli, a belgian left wing historian.
a shorter english version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Morelli)

the main criticism of her book is about the simple "do not trust anyone" approach and that she pick only some fitting examples.
anyway, it provides some basic filters for todays news and lots of the points coincide with my own experiences.

You guys both need to eat waffles.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 13, 2015, 08:55:58 am
sigh, this again
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 13, 2015, 09:17:35 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 13, 2015, 12:19:28 am
Nicko. Just curious what you think about Motorola's statement that he killed 15 captives? Is he a true terrorist just like we're used to see or is it fake or is it sarcasm?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 13, 2015, 09:19:23 am
dp for new page  :?
can some one edit mala's post?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on April 13, 2015, 09:28:41 am
Thanks Alvin for saying publicly how to break the forum, now all the "kewl kidz" are going to start using it...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 15, 2015, 10:23:58 am
About the division of naratives and why people like DonNicko, Vovka and Nabun exist with their "views". Quite nice read actually...

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/505bfd22-de2e-11e4-8d14-00144feab7de.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2015, 10:44:52 am
Quick, reach a new page!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 15, 2015, 10:45:14 am
Faster!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 15, 2015, 03:42:36 pm
du it nao
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on April 15, 2015, 05:23:52 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 15, 2015, 03:44:58 pm
It's too late! It followed us here....

(click to show/hide)

100% mute is equal to 50 days with limited forums access. Harsh measure for harsh times.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 17, 2015, 02:28:29 pm
This was quick...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32349308 and then - tadam! http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201504170946-hpud.htm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 17, 2015, 04:58:10 pm
Ugh this thread still going. Was hoping the ''broken page'' would keep u off from this crap lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 17, 2015, 05:00:39 pm
Yes, a great personal loss to you if this thread keeps going.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 17, 2015, 05:06:05 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 17, 2015, 05:00:39 pm
Yes, a great personal loss to you if this thread keeps going.
Yes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 17, 2015, 05:55:06 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 17, 2015, 03:12:49 pm
Lol xD I've never seen such lazy propaganda. Guess when a country gets big and arrogant, it just doesn't put the effort in that it used to.
Yes, seems Zvezda wants some popularity. Too lame propoganda. Same propoganda I saw only in ukranian media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 17, 2015, 06:55:31 pm
Those innocent russian youths are just frustrated because of how badly the west treats them for no reason, please understand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 17, 2015, 07:03:34 pm
Yea, West are such agressive illuminati assholes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 12:02:46 pm
And how it began.
Why Crimenians decided to separate from Ukraine
20 February 2014, 2 days before revolution. 7 busses with crimenians were stopped near Korsun by ukranian activists. Many people were killed, much more people were injured. They cut ears from some men, broke legs, arms. Shot from the gun. Burned busses. At the end they said that they would come to Crimea and it would be much worse then on Maidan.
Video which was made by ukranian activists. I never called ukranians nazis. but heard how crimenians did
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 21, 2015, 12:27:54 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 12:02:46 pm
(click to show/hide)
чет ты прослоупочил, видео жутко старое и не претендовало на секретное.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 12:37:47 pm
Quote from: Vovka on April 21, 2015, 12:27:54 pm
чет ты прослоупочил, видео жутко старое и не претендовало на секретное.
прослоупочил  :D
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on April 21, 2015, 01:32:09 pm
the whole video is so contrived that it makes no sense.  Not to mention if you were doing something illegal, why in the fuck would you film yourselves doing it???
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 01:43:50 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on April 21, 2015, 01:32:09 pm
the whole video is so contrived that it makes no sense.  Not to mention if you were doing something illegal, why in the fuck would you film yourselves doing it???
This video is compilation of films made by themselves and some other resources.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 21, 2015, 03:10:21 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 12:02:46 pm
And how it began.
Why Crimenians decided to separate from Ukraine
20 February 2014, 2 days before revolution. 7 busses with crimenians were stopped near Korsun by ukranian activists. Many people were killed, much more people were injured. They cut ears from some men, broke legs, arms. Shot from the gun. Burned busses. At the end they said that they would come to Crimea and it would be much worse then on Maidan.
Video which was made by ukranian activists. I never called ukranians nazis. but heard how crimenians did
(click to show/hide)

/trustorybro.

Also, now lets take a time to remember the Odessa tragedy.

Now that all the zombie filled planes have been checked and shot-down -
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/debunking-the-kremlin-myth-about-the-korsun-pogrom-video-383832.html?flavour=mobile
Quote
Bohdan Ovcharuk, a spokesperson for Amnesty International Ukraine, said his organization also tried to contact this group, because their logo is suspiciously reminiscent of the Amnesty one. Basically, the group used the same colors and fonts.

"Our lawyers tried to get in touch with someone (from Ukraine Human Right organization), because they copied our corporate style, but to no avail,” Ovcharuk told the Kyiv Post. “Looks like they’re pro-Kremlin trolls.”
<...>
"I have no confidence that these events actually took place. There are testimonies of people who say they have witnessed the events, but they don’t specify exactly where they are from, they mostly just say 'Crimea',” explains Yulia Gorbunova, a researcher for Human Rights Watch’s on Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

Gorbunova also said that it’s impossible to see the license plates on the buses or the faces of the participants, because “the picture is shifting all the time.”

"I think it’s just a propaganda tool,” Gorbunova concludes.

Ukraine's police have also dismissed the whole story as invention of the Russian propaganda.

"Such events didn't take place then,” Cherkasy region police spokesman Dmytro Hryshchenko said. “There was a checkpoint there and we also know about the burning of two buses. But the information about the activists gone missing or killed is not true.”

So what you have is: two burned busses, while tensions were running high and russia propaganda doing its bullshit. The usual suspects find this as "proof" of... naztees? Or what exactly?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 04:08:50 pm
lol, Kuujis Kiyvpost?
Quote
but they don’t specify exactly where they are from, they mostly just say 'Crimea
In that video people say where they are from, and their names, not just Crimea
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 21, 2015, 04:28:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 04:08:50 pm
lol, Kuujis Kiyvpost? In that video people say where they are from, and their names, not just Crimea
Well... They bothered investigating the sources you "rely" on, ask CREDIBLE sources, like "amnesty international", who HAVE published Ukraine-negative information, SO...

LOL WUT DON, Y U WATCH RUSSIAN MEDIA LOLOLOLOL NUB CRY MOAR GG GL nab.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 21, 2015, 04:40:35 pm
Russians fighting against na zism is like anti-satanics fighting against satanism with pentagrams and humansacrifices.

"They are such na zis, very obvious that the jews are to blame for this!" Is what the general comments in russian pages are.  :lol: I never seen far greater deliberate hypocrocy than russian anti-na zism campaigns.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 21, 2015, 08:27:45 pm
It's so fucking lame anyways. What is this, the 1950s? What a big deal if some people are retarded neo-chocolate chip cookies in some country. No different to other retarded ideological groups and you shouldn't pay them any more attention. I guess it's still a big horror word in Russia, judging from how often they use it in their propaganda and how shocked people like Nicko are that there are "neo-chocolate chip cookies" in another country.

Newsflash: nobody else cares.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 21, 2015, 08:56:01 pm
Call them murderers or assholes, or terrorists like americans. Terrorist can mean many things. Its kinda universal. Dont call them na zis, when they clearly arent. The word is very specific and the russians use of the word is very overused and often used in places where its not even 1% true. Ontop of that, yea, nobody actually cares. It was long time ago, not many people in power today even consider recreating Hit lers dream.

So you know, Nicko, you russians are worse than USA from that part. Creating a threat, that doesnt even exsist anymore so that you could look like your cause is noble. USA-s "cuz they were terrorists" is utter bullshit, but Russias "cuz they were na zis" is absolute desperate kindergarden logic.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on April 21, 2015, 09:01:15 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:39:26 am
Hi dumbs !

Here is an interesting documentary about events in Crimea : https://vimeo.com/123194285
(and a long Putin interview
(click to show/hide)
)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2015, 02:01:41 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:39:26 am
Hi dumbs !

Here is an interesting documentary about events in Crimea : https://vimeo.com/123194285
(and a long Putin interview
(click to show/hide)
)
"A Rossiya One production"

"Russia-1 (Russian: Россия-1) is a state-owned Russian television channel"

Hi, retard. Bye, retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 02:10:09 am
Troll Xant become faster and faster each day. Are you paid for that ? Because you seems to be permanent here.

But anyway, I've noticed you're racist yet. Your intervention was not necessary. Today, a russian state owned channel seems more trustfull than an oligarchy channel. Do you have a problem with russian people ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2015, 03:17:28 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 02:10:09 am
Troll Xant become faster and faster each day. Are you paid for that ? Because you seems to be permanent here.

But anyway, I've noticed you're racist yet. Your intervention was not necessary. Today, a russian state owned channel seems more trustfull than an oligarchy channel. Do you have a problem with russian people ?
:lol:

You're amazingly dumb. Really, I am amazed how stupid you are. Like, are you officially retarded? Or have you managed to avoid the doctors so far?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 06:11:01 am
Yea, and russian state owned channel is not an oligarchy channel, but owned by people who are dedicated to find out and speak only the truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 08:14:22 am
I lol'ed. I don't watch russian media, found this video on youtube, and other interviews with people from those busses. Posted one compilation, and your reaction - fake, not true and so on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 22, 2015, 08:48:37 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 08:14:22 am
I lol'ed. I don't watch russian media, found this video on youtube, and other interviews with people from those busses. Posted one compilation, and your reaction - fake, not true and so on.
Just for the record:
I didn't even watch it because I simply don't care anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 09:04:13 am
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2015, 08:48:37 am
Just for the record:
I didn't even watch it because I simply don't care anymore.
I have watched it. There is nothing convincing... Some videos might be authentic and something indeed happened there, even Ukrainian police admitted as much, but "pogrom"? ruskies really need to sharpen their knowledge of what words actually mean, before their so called "media" tells them what they want the new, more "russian" meaning to be...

After russian media "creating" news repeatedly, watching this video "compilation" and reading what ACTUALLY TRUSTED international humanitarian organizations (i.e. HRW) had to say about the event - I call bullshit on you and your statement, Don. You are now officially a liar and have been approved as being victim to propaganda bullshit and have been shown to be propaganda sheep-tool yourself. Here is a seal of approval:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 

Shiit.... even that seal is laughing at you now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 09:26:08 am
Where did I lie? Just wrote what people from Crimea said. You believe ukranian media, who called it pogrom.  :D And who is popoganded.
I think you didn't even try to find crimenians and watch their stories. There wasn't any investigation, ukranian militia just closed eyes on this, like in Odessa.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 10:21:54 am
This is where you lied:
Quote from: DonNicko on April 21, 2015, 12:02:46 pm
And how it began.
Why Crimenians decided to separate from Ukraine
20 February 2014, 2 days before revolution. 7 busses with crimenians were stopped near Korsun by ukranian activists. Many people were killed, much more people were injured. They cut ears from some men, broke legs, arms. Shot from the gun. Burned busses. At the end they said that they would come to Crimea and it would be much worse then on Maidan.
Video which was made by ukranian activists. I never called ukranians nazis. but heard how crimenians did
(click to show/hide)

Or did I miss "according to the people in the video" somewhere in the post?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 10:45:17 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 10:21:54 am
This is where you lied:
Or did I miss "according to the people in the video" somewhere in the post?
And? Can't see what wrong I said? Or do you want me posting millions videos with crimenians from those busses. Kuujis, the woman at the end of video is a liar too?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 22, 2015, 11:05:28 am
The thing is that people don't even watch videos that are being posted by you, Tovi and some others. It's like with a story about a boy and wolves. Too much bullshit was fired before now. And that's what you get after posting RT, Life News and even Shariy. Even if Shariy has a common sense in most of his videos (not all, but it's still a success for a pro-Russian journalist) his words are totally onesided. Who cares about a partial onesided truth? Yes, stupid Russians the vast majority of whom have never been abroad, not even in Ukraine, but claim to know everything about the purulent West. Those who use phrases like "Kiev junta", "Kiev regimen", "fascists, nаzi", "chasteners" and so on. Meanwhile it's such a rarity to read "Ukraine" and "Ukrainians", there are so many names they call Ukrainians that I can't even list them all. And then they claim that they're against nаzism. What a pure bullshit. Remember Tovi speaking about Mila Kunis being offended that she was called "zhidovka" (zhidovka - female version of zhid, an old slavic word that means "jew" but nowadays considered as rude)?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 11:11:45 am
Seems Dave you don't watch Shariy's video, because on the video He says that Russia support separatists by weapons, and also he showed how separatists used Grad near Houses. And really I saw your attitude towards east Ukraine. You seems smart but sometimes you show your true face
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 22, 2015, 11:24:54 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 11:11:45 am
Seems Dave you don't watch Shariy's video, because on the video He says that Russia support separatists by weapons, and also he showed how separatists used Grad near Houses. And really I saw your attitude towards east Ukraine. You seems smart but sometimes you show your true face

I don't because out of 10 horrible fakes that happen each hour on Russian channels Shariy picks zero of them but tries hard to pick everything out of Ukrainian media, it's boring. He's just licking ass of his subscribers because if he goes full truth his subscribers (pro-Russians) won't watch him because they'll get frustrated and pro-Ukrainians won't watch him because they're already frustrated. In that way I understand him but it doesn't justify what he does.

My attitude towards east Ukraine didn't change. And as I've said in the past my own city is also considered as South-Eastern part of Ukraine (though it's on the South-West). It's not really my attitude, it's the environment people in those areas had. Those on the far east of Ukraine (Donetsk, Luhanks) were raised in surroundings of communistic attributes here and there (streets, cities, factories, pretty much everything named after communists, a lot of other communistic attributes), most of them were more or less related to physical labour because of the industrial nature of that area. Meanwhile the far west of Ukraine was raised in other environment. I actually consider both propaganda environments wrong. Considering Stepan Bandera as a hero is outrageous at least. That's like Igor Strelkov of DNR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 11:36:29 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 10:45:17 am
And? Can't see what wrong I said? Or do you want me posting millions videos with crimenians from those busses. Kuujis, the woman at the end of video is a liar too?
You stated a lie. You did not say "this is what they say in this video", you simply stated a lie.

That woman at the end is an actor, called Oksana, no surname is provided for ease of double-checking, because everyone knows that Oksana is indeed a survivor of the pogrom. She is SO HURT after being shot at, thrown molotovs at, and what not, that all she has to show for it is... what... one drip exposed as much as possible for MAXIMUM EFFECT  :rolleyes:

All them ruskies are also hurt like this. Mostly butthurt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 11:41:57 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 22, 2015, 11:24:54 am
I don't because out of 10 horrible fakes that happen each hour on Russian channels Shariy picks zero of them but tries hard to pick everything out of Ukrainian media, it's boring. He's just licking ass of his subscribers because if he goes full truth his subscribers (pro-Russians) won't watch him because they'll get frustrated and pro-Ukrainians won't watch him because they're already frustrated. In that way I understand him but it doesn't justify what he does.

My attitude towards east Ukraine didn't change. And as I've said in the past my own city is also considered as South-Eastern part of Ukraine (though it's on the South-West). It's not really my attitude, it's the environment people in those areas had. Those on the far east of Ukraine (Donetsk, Luhanks) were raised in surroundings of communistic attributes here and there (streets, cities, factories, pretty much everything named after communists, a lot of other communistic attributes), most of them were more or less related to physical labour because of the industrial nature of that area. Meanwhile the far west of Ukraine was raised in other environment. I actually consider both propaganda environments wrong. Considering Stepan Bandera as a hero is outrageous at least. That's like Igor Strelkov of DNR.
Don't think that he licks asses of his subscribers, as he said more people from Ukraine are his subscribers, on the second place people from Russia. He shows ukranian fakes just because he is ukranian, once he tried to find russian fakes, but that was not that much, almost stupid propoganda and that's all(Can you show 10 horrible fakes that happen each hour on Russian channels), and in Ukraine it is not just propoganda it is like fake machine. People in Donbass see all this fakes about them. And this will just separate more Donbass from Ukraine. All this lie. Korsun, Odessa just shows government's attitude to another opinion. As I see new government does nothing to save Donbass in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 11:56:15 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 11:36:29 am
You stated a lie. You did not say "this is what they say in this video", you simply stated a lie.

That woman at the end is an actor, called Oksana, no surname is provided for ease of double-checking, because everyone knows that Oksana is indeed a survivor of the pogrom. She is SO HURT after being shot at, thrown molotovs at, and what not, that all she has to show for it is... what... one drip exposed as much as possible for MAXIMUM EFFECT  :rolleyes:

All them ruskies are also hurt like this. Mostly butthurt.
That woman called Oksana Medieva, so check if you want
if you like checking, then watch this
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 12:37:45 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 22, 2015, 11:05:28 am
The thing is that people don't even watch videos that are being posted by you, Tovi and some others. It's like with a story about a boy and wolves. Too much bullshit was fired before now. And that's what you get after posting RT, Life News and even Shariy. Even if Shariy has a common sense in most of his videos (not all, but it's still a success for a pro-Russian journalist) his words are totally onesided. Who cares about a partial onesided truth? Yes, stupid Russians the vast majority of whom have never been abroad, not even in Ukraine, but claim to know everything about the purulent West. Those who use phrases like "Kiev junta", "Kiev regimen", "fascists, nаzi", "chasteners" and so on. Meanwhile it's such a rarity to read "Ukraine" and "Ukrainians", there are so many names they call Ukrainians that I can't even list them all. And then they claim that they're against nаzism. What a pure bullshit. Remember Tovi speaking about Mila Kunis being offended that she was called "zhidovka" (zhidovka - female version of zhid, an old slavic word that means "jew" but nowadays considered as rude)?

The fact is that you are autistic, like your fascist friends. You don't want to hear anything about what different peoples says.
HAve you heard about your recent laws gloryfying the UPA and the OUN ? These organisations killed 80 000 pole jews during WW2. And your gvt consider them as heroes. This is not a russian theory, this is your LAW.

This law has been voted the 9th of April. The Simon Wisenthal Center condamned the neo-natzee policy of Kiev. http://bhcourier.com/simon-wiesenthal-center-speaks-ukrainian-lawmakers-alleged-anti-semitism/

Also, the law number 2558 forbid and repress Communism. This is clearly a fascist law. In fact, Fascism was created against Communism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:29:02 pm
Communism still exist in Russia. It's the main opposition party. And it's not forbidden.

Our media tried to make Nemtsov a major opponent, but he was just like 1%.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2015, 01:32:32 pm
tovi ban yourself for the 5th time pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 01:45:28 pm
How about we just hug it out guys.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:57:47 pm
I'm not alone. You won't reduce us to silence.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on April 22, 2015, 02:04:00 pm
Yeah, okay, buddy. I don't trust my local media about it either. It doesn't make me like you, lol.

100% of people breathe and exhale air. Doesn't mean they're all morons like you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 22, 2015, 02:08:05 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:57:47 pm
I'm not alone. You won't reduce us to silence.

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That research is by Sputnik, quite new media shop set up by Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 02:18:37 pm
Well, yea, I dont trust my media on Ukraine either. Doesnt mean Russian media is right. Its okay to be sceptical, but you just go full-retardo. Even the the most pro-russians people in Russia dont belive the kind of garbage you believe Tovi.

I know its pointless for me to even say this to you at this point, cause you just too dumb, but atleast try to filter SOME of the garbage you read in RT-news(or similar pages) out in your head, than atleast you could be like 5% right on something....Cause at current moment it seems like you just accepted all they say 100%.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 02:29:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 11:56:15 am
That woman called Oksana Medieva, so check if you want
if you like checking, then watch this
(click to show/hide)

That IGCP is a sham. Simple as that. If there indeed was this level of atrocities - HRW would NOT be saying "we could not verify anything in that video happened". And two burned busses - I'd say these guys got of lightly for what their moronic countrymen did to Ukraine.
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:57:47 pm
I'm not alone. You won't reduce us to silence.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


By Sputnik... Whole Europe is 4 countries. One of which is being currntly fucked by Europe for having too much liars in government... and the question is "dont trust media coverage" - I don't trust either. Especially putlers media. Question is badly formed. Should be "Do you trust russian media coverage?", "Do you trust western media coverage?", "Which media do you find more reliable?", those would be interesting, but poor point-scorers for sputnik... sad and bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2015, 03:32:37 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:57:47 pm
I'm not alone. You won't reduce us to silence.

Yeah, too many retards on this planet. Zombie apoc if you will.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 03:32:48 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 02:29:25 pm
That IGCP is a sham. Simple as that. If there indeed was this level of atrocities - HRW would NOT be saying "we could not verify anything in that video happened". And two burned busses - I'd say these guys got of lightly for what their moronic countrymen did to Ukraine.
There are a lot of things which HRW could not verify, just because current powers don't let do so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 22, 2015, 03:42:17 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 22, 2015, 03:32:48 pm
There are a lot of things which HRW could not verify, just because current powers don't let do so.
And an event of such ... importance and weight... IF true... with witnesses readily available... video material readily available... yes, could not be verified.

Have you tried opening your eyes? Maybe even your mind? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 04:07:14 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:57:47 pm
I'm not alone. You won't reduce us to silence.

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Another very curious note about this. From what my vision tells me at the bottom it says 6 000 people surveyd. Now UK, France, Greece and Germany are very big countries. Wouldnt be very hard to lets say survey in areas with russian majorities or mainly in groups that dedicate themselves in anti-west views. It doesnt really state what kind of people were actually surveyd. Its like if in USA someone was conducting a survey on homosexuals and the only people who even got asked about it were areas where there are a lot of rednecks and than basing an argument on that. Which is just idiotic.

Ofcourse it doesnt suprise me if Greece actually feels like that. That country is in the shit and people are looking for anything they can blame. So obviously they are pissed off at everything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 04:22:32 pm
I don't believe in anything. I present facts. You can check Ukraine laws by yourself.

About France : very few people trust their national media in general. And they have many reasons for that. Ukraine is not the only case of desinformation we know.
French Internet server companies actually flee to foreign countries because of a new internet massive spying law.
And people are upset about the Mistral affair. It's really a shame for our international credibility.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 04:29:27 pm
I give up. He who argues with a pro-east tinfoil conspiracist is a fool himself. Heres a norvegian forest cat:
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 22, 2015, 04:49:05 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 12:37:45 pm
The fact is that you are autistic, like your fascist friends.

If I'm autistic, how can I have friends (even fascist)?


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2015, 04:49:26 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 04:22:32 pm
I don't believe in anything. I present facts.

 :lol:

Tell me more, oh 40 year old child of the 90's generation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on April 22, 2015, 04:56:07 pm
We don't need any new updates on M:BG development, what we need is another 1200 pages of Ukraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 22, 2015, 05:10:36 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on April 22, 2015, 04:56:07 pm
We don't need any new updates on M:BG development, what we need is another 1200 pages of Ukraine

Yep. That shithole truly deserves that many pages for brainwashed ppl of the both sides to spit out the same argument over and over again but just differently worded..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 22, 2015, 05:11:38 pm
..says the brainwashed consumer-idiot who has absolutely no taste whatsoever  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 22, 2015, 05:24:25 pm
Quote from: Christo on April 22, 2015, 05:11:38 pm
..says the brainwashed consumer-idiot who has absolutely no taste whatsoever  :)

Majority/Mainstream disagrees
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2015, 05:35:59 pm
It's funny that Tovi calls others autistic because he's actually an autist, as can be seen from his constant "facist!!!!!!!!" remarks... and other things.

It's hilarious, normal people do not talk like that. Like, seriously, all of you, think about how many people you know who go around calling others "facist." Nobody fucking does that anymore because it's retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on April 22, 2015, 05:44:56 pm
Make that 2400 more pages
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2015, 05:52:04 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on April 22, 2015, 06:00:50 pm
If the thread makes it to 4800 pages do we get another M:BG update?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 06:19:11 pm
What is it with you, this thread and M:BG?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on April 22, 2015, 06:38:55 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 06:19:11 pm
What is it with you, this thread and M:BG?

Want to play this sometime this decade.  Less derpraine more work
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2015, 06:48:51 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 22, 2015, 06:19:11 pm
What is it with you, this thread and M:BG?
You mean all threads. Lombard is going full retard in every thread for... well, as long as he's posted. He doesn't seem to understand either that people posting in this thread aren't working on M:BG.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: lombardsoup on April 22, 2015, 06:49:31 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2015, 06:48:51 pm
You mean all threads. Lombard is going full retard in every thread for... well, as long as he's posted. He doesn't seem to understand either that people posting in this thread aren't working on M:BG.

Why not?  What else is there to do when waiting for a playable product?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 22, 2015, 10:30:40 pm
Quote from: lombardsoup on April 22, 2015, 06:49:31 pm
Why not?  What else is there to do when waiting for a playable product?
Getting 100% muted, for example. There's a good activity for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 23, 2015, 12:04:44 am
Xant stop derp and play GTA5 more
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 23, 2015, 10:56:01 am
Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2015, 10:30:40 pm
Getting 100% muted, for example. There's a good activity for you.

topkek  :lol:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 11:06:04 am
Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2015, 10:30:40 pm
Getting 100% muted, for example. There's a good activity for you.

get rekt small son
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:14:16 am
Quote from: Xant on April 22, 2015, 05:35:59 pm
It's funny that Tovi calls others autistic because he's actually an autist, as can be seen from his constant "facist!!!!!!!!" remarks... and other things.

It's hilarious, normal people do not talk like that. Like, seriously, all of you, think about how many people you know who go around calling others "facist." Nobody fucking does that anymore because it's retarded.

You, Xant, spend your life on this thread. This is pretty autistic...
But you're not fascist, just racist. Especially against russians. What did your country achieved compared to Russia ? Russia is a great country in domain of arts, sports, technology, science, military, territory, history, politic, litteracy etc. while Finland has just snow in winter and mosquitos in summer (even Russian have more snow and more mosquitos).
So when you say "that's just russian media", you should think twice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 11:17:32 am
Discriminatory is the word you're looking for, not racist.

Now while Xant might spend his life in this thread, you seem to spend your life filling yourself up with false information. That's not autistic, it's braindead.

Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:14:16 am
What did your country achieved compared to Russia ?

They achieved being a stable country with people that are not fucked in the head. Before you say "What did an EU country achieve compared to Russia" you should think twice of what a dump Russia actually is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:27:08 am
Quote from: Christo on April 22, 2015, 04:49:26 pm
:lol:

Tell me more, oh 40 year old child of the 90's generation

Just a word on this.
When I was 19/35 years old, I didnt use to play video games. Why ? Because I had much more interesting things to do : girls, study, travels, party, sport, friends etc. Right ? But my youth is behind me.
So now I'm 40, I have a regular job, a house, a wife and kids. I don't have much things to do during my free time except playing some strategy games or cRPG. And of course, read some news (I never watch TV).
I think it's pretty dumb to loose its youth front of a computer while there is so much things to do of its life. Really.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 11:33:13 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:27:08 am
When I was 19/35 years old, I didnt use to play video games. Why ? Because I had much more interesting things to do : girls, study, travels, party, sport, friends etc. Right ?

I did all that and spent my time on computer, where I played video games or learned other shit. Whats your point?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:39:31 am
Quote from: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 11:33:13 am
I did all that and spent my time on computer, where I played video games or learned other shit. Whats your point?
So, Iwouldn't be your girlfriend, be your friend or go in your party. And when you cross oceans on a boat or Amazonia, it's not really the place to play GTA. I mean, I talk about an intense life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 23, 2015, 11:50:05 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:39:31 am
So, Iwouldn't be your girlfriend, be your friend or go in your party. And when you cross oceans on a boat or Amazonia, it's not really the place to play GTA. I mean, I talk about an intense life.
Oh my... an accomplished brain-dead "live life to the fullest" Tovi... Go to that great russia, try living your great life there, let us know how it went for you...

Great... russia is one great thing right now, can't argue with that: great shithole.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 23, 2015, 12:07:04 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:14:16 am
You, Xant, spend your life on this thread. This is pretty autistic...

So Tovi, I heard that you like some statistics. I made a little research for you. You made 415 (four hundred fifteen) posts in this thread which is roughly a 1/3 of your total 1330 posts since your registration. Since your first post in this thread on 20th of February, 2014 you made 702 posts in total which means that 59.1% of your posts were made in this tread since then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 23, 2015, 12:11:19 pm
Tovis grandparents in Norway probably got rekt/raped by nazís during WW2.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 23, 2015, 12:15:11 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:14:16 am
You, Xant, spend your life on this thread. This is pretty autistic...
Oh really. That's funny, because pretty much my only posts in this thread are insults at you. So that means you've spent.. twice my life in this thread, at least?


Quote
But you're not fascist, just racist. Especially against russians. What did your country achieved compared to Russia ? Russia is a great country in domain of arts, sports, technology, science, military, territory, history, politic, litteracy etc. while Finland has just snow in winter and mosquitos in summer (even Russian have more snow and more mosquitos).
So when you say "that's just russian media", you should think twice.
Your mother is racist.

LOL at your failed Russia and Finland comparison. Look up some education and well-being statistics, retard.

Not to mention that none of that has anything to do with media. Only an utter moron would even make that connection.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 23, 2015, 12:26:07 pm
So, just for funsies:

Russia, GDP (PPP) per capita: 24,066 dollars.
Finland: 40,4855 dollars.
Russia, GDP (nominal) per capita: 8,1831 dollars.
Finland: 50,450 dollars.

Russia, gini (The Gini coefficient (also known as the Gini index or Gini ratio) (/dʒini/ jee-nee) is a measure of statistical dispersion intended to represent the income distribution of a nation's residents, and is the most commonly used measure of inequality): 42 (medium), number 82.
Finland: 25.9 (low).

Russia, HDI: 0.778, 57th.
Finland: 0.879, 24th.

Last wiki paragraph of the summary on both:

Finland:
Quote
Thereafter, it rapidly developed an advanced economy while building an extensive Nordic-style welfare state, resulting in widespread prosperity and one of the highest per capita incomes in the world. Finland is a top performer in numerous metrics of national performance, including education, economic competitiveness, civil liberties, quality of life, and human development.
Russia:
Quote
Russia's extensive mineral and energy resources, the largest reserves in the world,[23] have made it one of the largest producers of oil and natural gas globally.[24][25] The country is one of the five recognized nuclear weapons states and possesses the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.[26] Russia was the world's second biggest exporter of major arms in 2010-14, according to SIPRI data

In PISA tests, Finland consistently ranks within the top 5 in all categories, while Russia is always around ~40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index   :lol:

Golly gee, Finland is so inferior to Russia. Oh, wait... it truly takes a brain dead person to think so.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 12:35:03 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:39:31 am
So, Iwouldn't be your girlfriend, be your friend or go in your party. And when you cross oceans on a boat or Amazonia, it's not really the place to play GTA. I mean, I talk about an intense life.

The fuck were you even trying to say here?

Do you want me to list all the places I've visited over the world? Who said I played games when I was traveling or partying, you braindamaged ape. Intense life, the fuck rofl. Yours is intense with stupidity.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 23, 2015, 01:06:42 pm
Quote from: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 12:35:03 pm
The fuck were you even trying to say here?

Do you want me to list all the places I've visited over the world? Who said I played games when I was traveling or partying, you braindamaged ape. Intense life, the fuck rofl. Yours is intense with stupidity.
Tovi is just telling you that you're disqualified from being his boyfriend. He was seriously considering you for a while.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 23, 2015, 01:17:17 pm
Quote from: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 12:35:03 pm
The fuck were you even trying to say here?

Do you want me to list all the places I've visited over the world? Who said I played games when I was traveling or partying, you braindamaged ape. Intense life, the fuck rofl. Yours is intense with stupidity.

vibe

i just noticed that my electronic-meter that i have for house says:

made in slovenia

should i afraid, or is slavic pover ok???!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 23, 2015, 01:40:56 pm
oh boy... :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 23, 2015, 02:32:15 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 11:14:16 am
You, Xant, spend your life on this thread. This is pretty autistic...
But you're not fascist, just racist. Especially against russians. What did your country achieved compared to Russia ? Russia is a great country in domain of arts, sports, technology, science, military, territory, history, politic, litteracy etc. while Finland has just snow in winter and mosquitos in summer (even Russian have more snow and more mosquitos).
So when you say "that's just russian media", you should think twice.

This one really made me lol. Im imagining even russians scratching their heads when reading this post, thinking to themselves "i dont think he's talking about our Russia". :lol: Russians arent dumb on that area. They know their country isnt advanced in all those fields you just claimed. They are atleast down to earth on that one. The only difference is that they are super patriotic about it and blaming random things.

History, arts and territory are yea very great when it comes to Russia. But technology and science? wat? Even fucking Sweden beats them at that. Just because they arent funding asston on spacestations doesnt mean their fields in that area are inferior. Far from it. And even Sweden has equally interesting history and arts.

Man Tovi, you really have been living in a basement.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 23, 2015, 03:15:40 pm
http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/20k5dk/top_40_countries_by_the_number_of_scientific
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 23, 2015, 03:49:04 pm
Tovi doesnt know shit about a single country. He just hates and praises entirely on what side the country is on(as in West or Anti-West). Cause he has no bloody facts. omg. Ive never read more greater garbage. He should really write books, if he doesnt already. That controversial conspiracy bullcrap mind of his could potentially cash in millions. Has been done before. Shit, it keeps the pages in this thread just going. The OP of this thread will probably die of old age before we run out of ways to tell him to fuck off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 04:23:43 pm
Quote from: Christo on April 23, 2015, 01:17:17 pm
vibe

i just noticed that my electronic-meter that i have for house says:

made in slovenia

should i afraid, or is slavic pover ok???!

abandon house
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 23, 2015, 04:56:50 pm
Quote from: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 04:23:43 pm
abandon house

actually worked for years now since they changed these electronic-meter systems, but i never noticed it

how
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 05:11:08 pm
what brand is it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 23, 2015, 05:16:39 pm
iskra
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 05:20:20 pm
Yeah thought so, Iskra has good machinery, I knew they were pretty big but didn't think they were this big. My father used to work there 8-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 23, 2015, 05:20:50 pm
:D

also epic use of this thread, talking about kWh meters now
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 05:22:40 pm
anything is better than watching that fool vomit all over our beautiful forum
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 23, 2015, 06:48:15 pm
Vibe the rose gardener and Tovi the puking drunk.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 23, 2015, 08:32:01 pm
the last two pages are definitely top 5 bestof
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 10:08:18 pm
I don't talk about Russia actually, but about its recent history. They send the first man in space, but you must be too young to know that.
Even actually, Russia is a major power in the world.

Bonus, an american man in Donbass:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/GFAv0TEfPvo[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFAv0TEfPvo
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 23, 2015, 10:14:19 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 10:08:18 pm
but you must be too young to know that.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on April 23, 2015, 10:35:45 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 10:08:18 pm
I don't talk about Russia actually, but about its recent history. They send the first man in space, but you must be too young to know that.
Even actually, Russia is a major power in the world.

yet Russia is still garbage, just like your reasoning skills
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 23, 2015, 10:40:31 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 10:08:18 pm
I don't talk about Russia actually, but about its recent history. They send the first man in space, but you must be too young to know that.
Even actually, Russia is a major power in the world.

Bonus, an american man in Donbass:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/GFAv0TEfPvo[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFAv0TEfPvo
Russia sends the first man in space, therefore, their media is reliable.

This logic brought to you by Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 24, 2015, 06:11:11 am
Russia isnt a global power anymore, its a regional power. Again if you didnt live in a basement and believed international facts, not only Russias own facts that it made about itself, you would know that.

And yeah, i am too young to know that. Just because they were good in technology once, doesnt mean they are good at it now. They are very behind. They have no techhubs and no powerful techcompanies, unlike USA or actually even Finland( :lol:). And Russia wont probably even ever get them either, cause it requires good amount of foreign capital and expertise, which Russia has scared aways for years now, due to its constant instability. So I dont really understand where do you get your facts from Tovi? You keep saying that dollar will collapse and Russia will rise etc etc. But wheres your proof? Eversince the start of the Cold war, like you, the "expert" economists in the East have predicted dollars imminent collapse. Its been over 60 years now, still hasnt collapsed and even if it does, it still will not give Russia enough edge to take advantage of that and become rich.

For a person who once claimed in this thread that he has a degree in economics, im kinda suprised(not really :lol:) you cant even properly give facts. Im sure if you actually have a degree, you must have written a lot of papers with decent arguments. But all you are giving to us here, is politically motivated speculations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on April 24, 2015, 07:42:50 am
Wait, the very nature of economic experts is to not properly give facts. That's how it works.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 24, 2015, 08:33:53 am
Quote from: Paul on April 24, 2015, 07:42:50 am
Wait, the very nature of economic experts is to not properly give facts. That's how it works.
Absolutely agree
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 24, 2015, 08:39:26 am
Quote from: Paul on April 24, 2015, 07:42:50 am
Wait, the very nature of economic experts is to not properly give facts. That's how it works.

A shame that these guys are called economic experts though. Makes the whole thing confusing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 24, 2015, 11:55:40 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 23, 2015, 10:08:18 pm
I don't talk about Russia actually, but about its recent history. They send the first man in space, but you must be too young to know that.

Soviet Union did, not Russia, but you must be too young to know that. Russia is a direct successor of RSFSR, not the entire USSR.  If you want to say it that way - technically Kazakhstan sent Gagarin in space. Your pro-Russian chauvinism is so extremely close to nаzism that I'm totally stunned that you dare to speak about nаzism/fascism yourself.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 24, 2015, 04:41:25 pm
Not entirely Ukraine on topic, but I just wanted to ask Don, Vovka - do you like paying for private military of this guy?
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_CHECHNYA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-04-23-05-15-11
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 25, 2015, 11:13:24 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 24, 2015, 04:41:25 pm
Not entirely Ukraine on topic, but I just wanted to ask Don, Vovka - do you like paying for private military of this guy?
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_CHECHNYA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-04-23-05-15-11

I'm not actually sure if that's what he meant.

On the other hand this Hero of Russia who claimed to kill the first Russian in 16 is a total ape's twat. On the other hand he's just a stupid puppet of Putin who gets fed from the hand thus not able to form a single sentence in any language.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 25, 2015, 10:27:42 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 22, 2015, 01:57:47 pm
I'm not alone. You won't reduce us to silence.


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 26, 2015, 01:18:38 pm
EVIL USA EMPIRE INVADES UKRAIN!!!!!!4414!!4492!!

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 26, 2015, 01:35:48 pm
Quote from: Paul on April 24, 2015, 07:42:50 am
Wait, the very nature of economic experts is to not properly give facts. That's how it works.

I see them as a sort of modern day augur/oracle/shaman. Trying to impose logical frameworks and certainties on something we have poor control over.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Algarn on April 26, 2015, 01:43:46 pm
Little disclaimer, not all french people are like Tovi.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 26, 2015, 09:19:35 pm
Quote from: Algarn on April 26, 2015, 01:43:46 pm
Little disclaimer, not all french people are like Tovi.
the French see themselves
(click to show/hide)

As I see them

(click to show/hide)

  :P

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 26, 2015, 09:30:08 pm
Ive never been to France but I always got the impression that Paris is a craphole filled with assholes who hate tourists with passion. That everywhere else besides Paris its quite nice. :D

But than again, most modern countries capitals are filled with filth equal to the glamour.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 26, 2015, 10:39:14 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 26, 2015, 09:30:08 pm
Ive never been to France but I always got the impression that Paris is a craphole filled with assholes who hate tourists with passion. That everywhere else besides Paris its quite nice. :D

But than again, most modern countries capitals are filled with filth equal to the glamour.

I visited France around 10 years ago. Paris looked like it needed a little more of cleaning action on the streets even for post-USSR standards but I would never call it a craphole. I didn't feel any hate towards tourists, the only thing that I felt uncomfortable with was a little miscommunication while using English (well you still can't compare it to post-USSR countries' level of English).

BTW. Congrats. Meanwhile in Ukraine is #1 by the amount of replies.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on April 26, 2015, 11:10:35 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2015, 10:39:14 pm

BTW. Congrats. Meanwhile in Ukraine is #1 by the amount of replies.

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Thanks to morons like Tove and the Russian guys and others spewing the same retarded weak rhetoric over and over again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 27, 2015, 12:05:28 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 26, 2015, 11:10:35 pm
Thanks to morons like Tove and the Russian guys and others spewing the same retarded weak rhetoric over and over again.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 27, 2015, 07:23:04 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2015, 10:39:14 pm
well you still can't compare it to post-USSR countries' level of English
Visit Japan man
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 27, 2015, 09:25:41 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on April 26, 2015, 11:10:35 pm
Thanks to morons like Tove and the Russian guys and others spewing the same retarded weak rhetoric over and over again.

The irony is that I got minused by 2 guys who keep coming into this thread and posting how useless these all posts are. By doing this over and over again you basically just add these useless posts. Still worth it, 10/10 would post again  :D

Quote from: DonNicko on April 27, 2015, 07:23:04 am
Visit Japan man

Too expensive  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 27, 2015, 09:37:10 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 27, 2015, 09:25:41 am
Too expensive  :cry:
Yep, and you need to learn Japanese, because they don't speak english anyhow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 27, 2015, 09:49:54 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 26, 2015, 10:39:14 pm
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More surprised that the old Bandits-thread is still in third place although being locked for a year or something now...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2015, 08:07:01 pm
Quote from: Algarn on April 26, 2015, 01:43:46 pm
Little disclaimer, not all french people are like Tovi.

You're not really french, Algarn the traitor.

2 things :

-Russia is back as a global power. They stopped an invasion in Syria, they send weapons to many countries (Iran, Irak, Syria etc.), they build an alternative economy with China (new SWIFT system, new Silk Road etc.), alternative worldwide media etc.

-France won the 2 world wars. Germany is the eternal looser.

About Ukrainian nationalism : it has been created by Poland (then by Austria) to divide the Russian Empire. But in fact, Ukrainians are Russians. Ukraine has been created by Lenin in 1922 and Crimea was given to Ukraine by communists. They should thanks Communism instead of forbid it.
Ukrainian nazees thinks they are the real russian. As a pure race without any mongol blood.

This is that kind of ideology EU defends. The same ideology that loose during the 2nd WW. Don't forget it when you spit on Russia or French.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on April 27, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
Delusional old commie bundle of sticks, are you sad your retarded fucking ideology and political party are suffering the slow death they deserve? With only monumentaly stupid geezers with rose tinted nostalgia glasses still spouting the same ridiculous practically religious dogma? You have the nerve to talk about "really french", you 5th column piece of shit?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 27, 2015, 08:17:32 pm
Lol, shut up Oberyn. What he just wrote is quite comparable to the lizardmen conspiracy theory. If he's not actually trolling and believes this crap for real, his so far biased at this point, that his views arent even dangerous or taken seriuslly by anyone even mildly sane. You being angry is just patronizing him. Its really amazing, but this time he really outdid himself.

"Mongol blood"? Hahaha.  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2015, 08:28:23 pm
Yeah funny isn't it ? But we send weapons to people who believe in these bullshits.

I'm not Communist. But here is a fact :

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Russia is still a major military power. Even Obama knows that (so much :) )

About what you call a "conspiracy" (wich is really not secret at all  :lol: ), you should listen to this :

[youtube]https://youtu.be/emCEfEYom4A[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emCEfEYom4A
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 27, 2015, 08:35:20 pm
Im so sorry I ever was mad at you Tovi and tried to change your views. You know what? Believe what you wanna believe. Good on ya m8!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on April 27, 2015, 09:18:19 pm
Tovi Tovi..

If anyone finally got their empire in Europe its germany lol!

And about that statistic. How many of those countries are NATO countries? And would an all out conventional war even matter between nuclear superpowers? And if we remove the nuclear weapons from the equation (unrealistic, but for fun) Nato aircraft will stomp those russian tanks in notime. Ref: various invasions of Iraq for example.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 27, 2015, 09:56:25 pm
I've never said Russia was a global empire like USA are. But, like it has been said, it's a strong regional power that, recently, have influence beyond its area. They still have a naval base in Syria, for exemple. And the ability to destroy the world with nuclear weapons. You just can't say it's nothing.
Their partnership with China become stronger and they can deal with NATO military power now.
In Europe, Russia have more tanks than NATO,and their missiles system are more efficient. That's pretty enough to say "NO" to the empire.

If you've seen the Stratfor director video, you can understand that in Europe, only Germany count for the empire. There is a possibility to build a continental force with Germany, France and Russia (and China), and let the anglo-saxon empire play alone.
The other possibility is to submit and let the war coming again on European soil.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 27, 2015, 10:02:55 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 27, 2015, 08:07:01 pm
You're not really french, Algarn the traitor.

ALGARN THE TRAITOR


AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 28, 2015, 12:58:52 am
The thought that this guy is allowed to raise kids with this kind of views and believes sends shivers of horror down my spine.

RIP in pieces, future France...

Not to mention that the contract terms between Russia and China are a joke for Russia.
Not to mention that China has so much to lose with a weakened USA and Europe that they never ever will support any Russian attempt to seriously undermine their profit.

Why am I even trying to argue with common sense here? Pearls for the pigs...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 28, 2015, 03:14:49 am
Bwahahaha... oh my god, I thought Tovi was full retard before, but now he's just crossed the line into full blown hilarity. Tovi, please, don't shut up. Tell us more!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 06:08:07 am
He seriuslly should post more. I really didnt see this kind of bad info coming. Tovi saying that Ukraine does not have any right to exsist at all, if its not friends with Russia, actually says a lot and is hilarious as fuck. Especially considering how little he actually knows about Ukraine and Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 06:10:35 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 27, 2015, 10:47:16 pm
Even if you leave nuclear weapons in the equation, it doesnt take 8k nukes to cleanse the entirety of Russia of human life. The UK alone could probably destroy every major town and city in Russia with it's pitiful (relative) number of nukes, any more than that is a waste of resources. It was Kruschev himself who said the following:

''I remember President Kennedy once stated... that the United States had the nuclear missile capacity to wipe out the Soviet Union two times over, while the Soviet Union had enough atomic weapons to wipe out the United States only once... When journalists asked me to comment... I said jokingly, "Yes, I know what Kennedy claims, and he's quite right. But I'm not complaining... We're satisfied to be able to finish off the United States first time round. Once is quite enough. What good does it do to annihilate a country twice? We're not a bloodthirsty people."
As quoted in Khrushchev Remembers: The Last Testament (1974)

Are you French or Russian? If you are French and live in France, would you like to go and live in Russia? You do realize that in this delusion of yours where mighty Russia righteously overthrows the evil western empire with nukes (cos the rest of their military is a joke) France will be just as much nuked as the rest of the world. You might like to talk tough on Russia's behalf, there is no form of warfare that Russia would win at present, their military is shit and full of so much cannon-fodder, and the moment Russia fires a nuke because it realises they stand no chance in the field, they get assfucked by every non-russian nuke on the planet. That's not a victory, it's assisted suicide. Some might call that a victory for the rest of the world.

Thanks, but I know what nuclear dissuasion is. I've grown in this period. The question is that you can't consider Russia like Iraq or Afghanistan. It's a bit more complicated.

It wouldn't be a problem to live in Russia (Depardieu did  8-)), I think you can buy a big house and field for nothing. And it's a beautiful country. But I don't speak Russian and I prefer tropical countries (Cuba, for exemple ;) )

PArtnership between Russia and China is not a joke. There is a huge program of mutual development between them : Russia will furnish gas and oil across central Asia, weapons (SU24 etc.) and building of railroads for goods. And they won't use the $ currency. We talk about billions of investments during the next 20 years.
And this is the worst scenario for the empire : end of naval domination, end of $$$ domination, end of political domination. A huge Asian Power Russia-China-Iran that continental Europe and India could join.
This is the main question for the world actually. Not all these "terrorism" bullshits that you can see in your favorite media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 06:14:36 am
I like how he calls it "the Empire". Well Obama is black, like Darth Vader. Rest of the stuff you wrote is pointless to awnser to. You know nothing about China and Russia etc. But keep speculating.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 28, 2015, 06:58:16 am
This thread should be renamed to "The Tovi Show."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 28, 2015, 07:09:26 am
To Vi, or not To Vi.

That is the question.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on April 28, 2015, 08:24:31 am
Someday we all should all meet, have some beer and discuss all this. Will be fun. Would be great though to have someone there with experience in emergency medical aid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 28, 2015, 08:44:34 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 06:10:35 am
It wouldn't be a problem to live in Russia (Depardieu did  8-)), I think you can buy a big house and field for nothing. And it's a beautiful country. But I don't speak Russian and I prefer tropical countries (Cuba, for exemple ;) ).


For how long did Depardieu live in Russia before he realized that the place where he lived is a total shithole compared to France or Belgium or wherever he lived in the past and lives now? Russian politicians (including odious Ramzan Kadyrov) gifted him apartments which he has successfully sold and now lives in Europe again. Also about the prices: you're actually quite wrong. Prices are damn too high, especially if you compare price/quality with any of EU countries. Go get a house for a decent price unless it's an Earth's edge with no roads and no signs of civilization. But with your statements it's better to live in such place.

What if Cuba becomes US' friend again? Will you leave it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 09:50:42 am
Why do you even awnser him seriusly? Just tell him to fuck off. In his opinion Ukraine has no right to even exsist, if its not Russias buddy and that one day Europe, China and Russia will make some carebear economicalliance, which is kinda like the cool kids club that wont allow the imperial USA in because it has cooties or something.

Yeah, those last posts of his were really really odd. If you think of all that above you realise even your cat is more down to earth than him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 09:56:09 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 06:14:36 am
I like how he calls it "the Empire". Well Obama is black, like Darth Vader. Rest of the stuff you wrote is pointless to awnser to. You know nothing about China and Russia etc. But keep speculating.
I can also say, that you don't know nothing about China and Russia. And I think that this is good that most europeans think so  :D I can say that there are a lot of secret agreements with China and India(India is the biggest importer of russian military equipment). Near future is that Russia will become closer with Asia and Latin America. And Russia will grow selfproduction.
I just blame my government that they didn't increase production while good times.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on April 28, 2015, 10:04:36 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 09:56:09 am
And Russia will grow selfproduction.
This is as hilarious as Tovi's posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 10:08:08 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 09:56:09 am
(click to show/hide)

Again, you russian "experts" have been claiming warmer ties with Asia, economic growth, collapse of dollar for like 50 years now nonstop, since USSR. If it does finally happen, its luck, nothing else. China and India are not you allies, if someone lets say offers better price than you, they will make deals with them instead. Which does actually happen at times. I think you are kinda wrong about Russia and China yourself.

I still recall that one post where you stated that life in China is good enough. Which kinda proves you have no understanding of China at all. Even less than me. Which is kinda common for you pro-Rus types. You dont see the problems surrounding countries like China and India, cause you are so head up your arse certain that the only key to Russias wealth is Asia, so you hype its wealth and its peoples wellfare a lot higher than it actually is. This is why thoughts of "most europeans" is slightly more true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 10:17:32 am
Quote from: Molly on April 28, 2015, 10:04:36 am
This is as hilarious as Tovi's posts.
USA thought like this about China, when they made sanctions against China
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 10:28:15 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 10:08:08 am
warmer ties with Asia
Yes
Quote from: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 10:08:08 am
economic growth
Yes
Quote from: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 10:08:08 am
collapse of dollar for like 50 years now nonstop, since USSR
No
Life in China is good enough(if you don't think that good enough is about a castle near the sea). Time will show that bonds in BRICS are closer than you think. But I think the war will come faster. And this is not that good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 28, 2015, 10:44:39 am
Quote from: Molly on April 28, 2015, 10:04:36 am
This is as hilarious as Tovi's posts.

He meant selfproduction of retards :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 28, 2015, 11:04:01 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 10:28:15 am
YesYesNo
Life in China is good enough(if you don't think that good enough is about a castle near the sea). Time will show that bonds in BRICS are closer than you think. But I think the war will come faster. And this is not that good.

There are no bonds in BRICS, you moron. You arent geographicaly, historically, culturally, economicaly or in any other way even remotely similar, compared to EU or NATO. Not even Russian propaganda ever reminds BRICS. It always like to show how much friends its got and even it doesnt talk about it. BRICS is not an alliance, its just a cooperation pact, stop being delusional.

I know people who used to live in China. With hard work and good luck a person in Europe or America gets same things in 5 years an entire working family in China wouldnt get in 30 years. Just because you went to China as a tourist doesnt mean you understand it perfectly.  Thats hard realism for you Nicko.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 28, 2015, 11:12:37 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 09:56:09 am
I can also say, that you don't know nothing about China and Russia. And I think that this is good that most europeans think so  :D I can say that there are a lot of secret agreements with China and India(India is the biggest importer of russian military equipment). Near future is that Russia will become closer with Asia and Latin America. And Russia will grow selfproduction.
I just blame my government that they didn't increase production while good times.
The agreements are so secret that DonNicko knows about them and talks about them on cRPG forums. Sounds legit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 28, 2015, 11:48:17 am
BRICS is nothing more than a bunch of countries trying to get the maximum of benefits without getting any obligations. They didn't support Russia's annexation of Crimea even when there were no sanctions, nothing to say about current situation. And why would they support chauvinists who don't even consider Ukraine as country and its people as nation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on April 28, 2015, 11:48:54 am
Quote from: Xant on April 28, 2015, 11:12:37 am
The agreements are so secret that DonNicko knows about them and talks about them on cRPG forums. Sounds legit.

Does one get 10 years of prison for saying that Putin is an idiot in Russia? Yes, because that's a state secret. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 01:28:52 pm
Dave, watch this. Maybe you will start to understand what
Quote from: DaveUKR on February 20, 2014, 08:18:53 pm
low educated and bad mannered ignorant alcoholics of working class (called "bydlo" in Ukrainian)
think
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on April 28, 2015, 05:38:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 01:28:52 pm
Dave, watch this. Maybe you will start to understand what  think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHXUL-YYrNg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHXUL-YYrNg)

and whats your opinion about this video?


one or two looked a bit tipsy to me.
anyway, the comments were quite even, lots of them  seemed quite tired of the civil war, but i guess the major players have other plans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 07:26:40 pm
Quote from: Mala on April 28, 2015, 05:38:48 pm
and whats your opinion about this video?


one or two looked a bit tipsy to me.
anyway, the comments were quite even, lots of them  seemed quite tired of the civil war, but i guess the major players have other plans.
Nothing new. Donbass people are against current power in Ukraine. And yes they all tired of the civil war and they want to live in peace but away from Ukraine. As I said before Revolution and then ATO are the biggest fault of the current power
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 28, 2015, 07:41:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 01:28:52 pm
Dave, watch this. Maybe you will start to understand what  think

Well, nice that you quoted me out of context. The irony is that this quote actually gets proven by the video that you post afterwards. A couple of millions left that area after the war started so basically most of the people who left there more or less support DNR  I highly dislike this provocative video and I don't really understand any other plot of it rather than to provoke people. If you know it's a huge gesture of disrespect to reply in a different language when your interviewer asks you something and you know this language. So when you don't reply a question using official language it basically means that either you don't know this language enough to speak it (read as low educated) or you're bad mannered (read as bydlo). The only woman that tried to speak Ukrainian in the end of the video made mistakes, but she tried at least.

This thing about low educated and bad mannered people in that area is not my personal thought, it's a global stereotype all over Ukraine. It's like Butovo in Moscow area (or maybe I picked a bad example but I think you understand me). Boring.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 07:59:16 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 28, 2015, 07:41:26 pm
Well, nice that you quoted me out of context. The irony is that this quote actually gets proven by the video that you post afterwards. A couple of millions left that area after the war started so basically most of the people who left there more or less support DNR  I highly dislike this provocative video and I don't really understand any other plot of it rather than to provoke people. If you know it's a huge gesture of disrespect to reply in a different language when your interviewer asks you something. So when you don't reply a question using official language it basically means that either you don't know this language enough to speak it (read as low educated) or you're bad mannered (read as bydlo). The only woman that tried to speak Ukrainian in the end of the video made mistakes, but she tried at least.

This thing about low educated and bad mannered people in that area is not my personal thought, it's a global stereotype all over Ukraine. It's like Butovo in Moscow area (or maybe I picked a bad example but I think you understand me). Boring.
What context? you said that about eastern people. I live in Tatarstan and sometimes people asks me something in Tatar and I answer in Russian, and you won't believe they don't call me bydlo. We have some tatar villages where people speak bad in russian, and I never thought that ukranians would call them bydlo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 08:34:06 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 28, 2015, 03:25:27 pm
Not really, snarling at each other and fighting proxy wars through other countries are quite well established and simple at this stage, just as long as both governments deny everything all the time. The only question is why even bother? There'd be no conflict if Russia wasn't trying to expand into countries that do not want to be expanded into, it's not like the rest of the world is desperate to grab that fine Russian turf xD so all this talk about brave Russia resisting the rest of the world is futile, nobody wants to invade Russia anyway, it's not exactly prime real-estate as you yourself admit you wouldn't go and live there.

I have some pretty bad news on that front, i'm sorry you didn't receive our notification, but the British Empire stopped trading a few years back... yeah, we had to make cutbacks, there were some self-evident truths... it was a whole thing.

If it was though, India's still in the Commonwealth so... If we're talking about fictitious Empires that don't exist, the Commonwealth still spans 2.2 billion people globally, scary stuff. I don't see what the fascination is with the idea of making an evil legion-of-doom block in the east, firstly it'd take more cooperation than china or Russia possess, secondly there's no threat of invasion to force things further. You have a very Russian mindset when you say that 'continental Europe and India could join' this 'huge Asian Power', i'm assuming by 'could join' you mean the 'Huge Asian Power' would invade them.

China is the first investor in Germany yet. I mean, we don't need USA. We need russian natural ressources and chinese manpower. But USA are stronger in high technologies, software, entertainments etc.
This is exactly why they try to destabilize Europa. While they push EU to sanction Russia, they've enhanced their business with Russia by 8%...  Americans really think europeans are dumbs, and they are overall right. Mainly because our elite and media are infiltrated by a little atlantist oligarchy. For exemple, in France, our 2 last president comes from the French American Foudation. And now our country is the little dog of Uncle Sam. But people are just blind and stupid, they say "huh, no, it's conspiracy ! I love Hamburgers !"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Algarn on April 28, 2015, 08:37:48 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 08:34:06 pm
China is the first investor in Germany yet. I mean, we don't need USA. We need russian natural ressources and chinese manpower. But USA are stronger in high technologies, software, entertainments etc.
This is exactly why they try to destabilize Europa. While they push EU to sanction Russia, they've enhanced their business with Russia by 8%...  Americans really think europeans are dumbs, and they are overall right. Mainly because our elite and media are infiltrated by a little atlantist oligarchy. For exemple, in France, our 2 last president comes from the French American Foudation. And now our country is the little dog of Uncle Sam. But people are just blind and stupid, they say "huh, no, it's conspiracy ! I love Hamburgers !"

And saying "huh, it's a conspiracy, I love vodka" doesn't make you smarter than the pro americans.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 08:43:51 pm
We don't have the choice now. We will sign TAFTA treaty despite a 1 million drafts against it. But, as usual, EU spit on democracy. Bruxelles gave 11 billion € to Ukraine to buy weapons. Europe is Peace ? Bullshits.

Austria and Hungary will soon leave EU, and maybe Greece too (or Euro, at least). Not because they are stupid, but because more and more people are aware that EU is the puppet of the USA. Like NATO is.
When you withdraw your independancy, you become a slave.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Algarn on April 28, 2015, 08:56:26 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 08:43:51 pm
We don't have the choice now. We will sign TAFTA treaty despite a 1 million drafts against it. But, as usual, EU spit on democracy. Bruxelles gave 11 billion € to Ukraine to buy weapons. Europe is Peace ? Bullshits.

Austria and Hungary will soon leave EU, and maybe Greece too (or Euro, at least). Not because they are stupid, but because more and more people are aware that EU is the puppet of the USA. Like NATO is.
When you withdraw your independancy, you become a slave.

Because maybe that russia is peace, remember that they sent weapons and men to Ukraine, or also that because of Russia, Bachar Al Assad is still shooting is own people ? Russia is as bad as USA, if not more. USA still have some democratic elections, garantee a few freedoms, like the freedom of will or religion. In Russia, you will get beaten to death if you tell anyone you are gay, or against Putin. But whatever, Russia is still far better than USA after all, considering they don't like americans, right ?

Also, not everything is perfect with the European Union, but I prefer that rather than a bipolar choice, economically wise. Having to choose between Black death and cholera isn't the best way to do things.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on April 28, 2015, 09:30:28 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 28, 2015, 07:41:26 pm
If you know it's a huge gesture of disrespect to reply in a different language when your interviewer asks you something. So when you don't reply a question using official language it basically means that either you don't know this language enough to speak it (read as low educated) or you're bad mannered (read as bydlo). The only woman that tried to speak Ukrainian in the end of the video made mistakes, but she tried at least.

This thing about low educated and bad mannered people in that area is not my personal thought, it's a global stereotype all over Ukraine. It's like Butovo in Moscow area (or maybe I picked a bad example but I think you understand me). Boring.

And now I strongly disagree with you. I really like to hear people speaking different languages in one conversation when I'm travelling across Ukraine and I don't find it disrespectful at all. Rather it shows that "language problem" exists only in russian propaganda and not in reality. Actually, if you don't speak ukrainian - usually it is better to speak russian than "broken" ukrainian. It's not disrespectful either - just sometimes it makes it more difficult to understand you:)
I partly agree about education part though - indeed, usually well educated people have both fluent ukrainian and russian, but far from always and anyway, it is the least important problem that comes from bad education.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 09:33:46 pm
Quote from: Algarn on April 28, 2015, 08:56:26 pm
In Russia, you will get beaten to death if you tell anyone you are gay, or against Putin. But whatever, Russia is still far better than USA after all, considering they don't like americans, right ?
Half of our media people are gays. I can easily critisize Putin. We like americans
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 09:36:40 pm
Algarn, You listen too much mainstream media.
Russia didn't initiate conflict in Ukraine. And the vast majority of weapons and fighters in Donbass comes from Donbass (or seized weapons).
Various US foundations support colored revolutions across arab countries and eastern Europa. Bachar El Assad do not fire on its own people. In fact, maybe 90% of the population support him against Daesh and Al Qaeda, wich are mainly foreigners.
Same for Khadaffi, who never had the intention to slaughter its population at Benghazi. That just propaganda (when you see BHL you can be sure it's propaganda around there).

Same problem in Chechenya, when Qatar and AS funded islamic rebellion (to cut off Oil from Caspian Sea). Everybody said russians were monsters, but now Chechenya, led by Kadyrov, is a loyal partner of the Russian Federation. I mean, a state like Chechenya in russian federation has more independance than France in EU.

Also, look at Yemen situation. There is a local revolution and Saudi Arabia invade it with the help of the West and some arab countries. But it's ok,if not they would be ally to Iran. It's not like if Russia invaded Ukraine to crush the Maidan revolution !  :mrgreen:
It's the perfect demonstration of the Asian containment strategy (described by Brzezinsky or Friedman).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 09:38:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 09:33:46 pm
Half of our media people are gays. I can easily critisize Putin. We like americans

In USA you're beaten to death if you're black. Does Russia needs to send National Guard against its own population ? Only countries like USA or Ukraine do that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 09:51:22 pm
Today's news :
Russia-China partnership
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-04/28/c_134192467.htm

Quote
nuclear energy, aviation and aerospace, satellite navigation, agricultural trade, cross-border infrastructure construction and China's involvement in the development of Russia's Far East
  :lol:

You really should inform yourselves...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 28, 2015, 10:31:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 28, 2015, 07:59:16 pm
What context? you said that about eastern people. I live in Tatarstan and sometimes people asks me something in Tatar and I answer in Russian, and you won't believe they don't call me bydlo. We have some tatar villages where people speak bad in russian, and I never thought that ukranians would call them bydlo.

What do you mean I said that? If you don't cut a couple of words in that quote you will see that I said that "Most of them are considered", not "I consider them". I edited the original post because I missed the most important part of the sentence. Anyway if I recall correctly there are 2 (or more) official languages in Tatarstan, right? And it makes a very different story because there is only 1 official language in Ukraine and it was like that for 25 years, it's not like they suddenly forgot it when they became a part of DNR.

Quote from: serr on April 28, 2015, 09:30:28 pm
And now I strongly disagree with you. I really like to hear people speaking different languages in one conversation when I'm travelling across Ukraine and I don't find it disrespectful at all. Rather it shows that "language problem" exists only in russian propaganda and not in reality. Actually, if you don't speak ukrainian - usually it is better to speak russian than "broken" ukrainian. It's not disrespectful either - just sometimes it makes it more difficult to understand you:)
I partly agree about education part though - indeed, usually well educated people have both fluent ukrainian and russian, but far from always and anyway, it is the least important problem that comes from bad education.

I exaggerated it by mistake. Edited my post. I've said the same thing earlier in this thread and now I've just shamefully missed the part "if you know this language" because it works the other way as well. But anyway I can't believe that anyone can be considered as well-educated who achieved education during independent Ukraine and can't speak Ukrainian. Even I living in Odessa, studying in Russian school learned enough of Ukrainian to fluently speak it. I can't even imagine how you can pass any of official exams in school/Uni which are almost always in Ukrainian.

Edit: Again missed the important part in the sentence :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on April 28, 2015, 10:50:56 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 09:38:09 pm
In USA you're beaten to death if you're black. Does Russia needs to send National Guard against its own population ? Only countries like USA or Ukraine do that.

Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 09:51:22 pm
You really should inform yourselves...

hahahahahahahaha fuck off, you clueless nut.  You havent a clue, you truly dont......please stop talking.......

maybe you should inform yourself before you make poor comments, learn what the national guard is too while your at it, maybe learn U.S law.......
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 28, 2015, 10:55:52 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on April 28, 2015, 10:50:56 pm
hahahahahahahaha fuck off, you clueless nut.  You havent a clue, you truly dont......please stop talking.......

maybe you should inform yourself before you make poor comments, learn what the national guard is too while your at it, maybe learn U.S law.......
national guards in usa its a black slave head hunters  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 11:40:41 pm
US troops in Ukraine bring their good all traditions:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/8sXhDNTIUvg[/youtube]
https://youtu.be/8sXhDNTIUvg

Black, Russian or Jew, what difference ? We are all European and white, why bother ?

More
https://youtu.be/vHjsLRXUuJE

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 29, 2015, 05:31:37 am
HAhahahahahh Tovi is so retarded
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 07:27:10 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 28, 2015, 10:31:25 pm
What do you mean I said that? If you don't cut a couple of words in that quote you will see that I said that "Most of them are considered", not "I consider them". I edited the original post because I missed the most important part of the sentence. Anyway if I recall correctly there are 2 (or more) official languages in Tatarstan, right? And it makes a very different story because there is only 1 official language in Ukraine and it was like that for 25 years, it's not like they suddenly forgot it when they became a part of DNR.
If you wrote that they considered as bad mannered alcoholics with low education, I think that you think the same or wouldn't write so. Yes we have 2 official languages. Donbass wanted russian as official, am I wrong? There are a lot of turks in my city. Also ben turkce iyi konusuyourum, and I speak with them in turkish. Nobody will call them bydlo, because of the language. 25 years isn't enough to make ukranian the only one language. There are a lot engeneers in Donbass and they considered as a bydlo? Lol. Seems my aunt in Luhansk considered as bydlo. My grandma in Kiev understands ukranian, but she doesn't speak in it, so she is bydlo?
Anyway after government called them vata, separy and terrorists, after shelling towns. What do you think, will Donbass join Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 29, 2015, 08:15:01 am
Quote from: Tovi on April 28, 2015, 09:38:09 pm
In USA you're beaten to death if you're black. Does Russia needs to send National Guard against its own population ? Only countries like USA or Ukraine do that.

This thread just produces some of the finest gold. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on April 29, 2015, 10:11:19 am
nvm misread
When you say last two centuries, do you mean 19th-20th (1800-2000) or 1900-present. Or the last 200 years? Since if you said last century, it would obv be the 20th, but I have seen the other one used to refer to both.
In case it's the first, well, US annexed Texas in the 1840s
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 10:46:21 am
Also wanted to say about Texas. And how about to expand the influence?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 29, 2015, 10:46:48 am
Quote from: Moncho on April 29, 2015, 10:11:19 am
In case it's the first, well, US annexed Texas in the 1840s
How relevant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on April 29, 2015, 10:49:17 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 29, 2015, 09:35:35 am
US, they have never tried to aggressively expand their territory in the last 2 centuries.
yep they just bomb it and then pumped new government with loans serviced by resources of the country for next centuries  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 12:00:17 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 29, 2015, 10:57:16 am
Undeniably and shamelessly. But not to conquer, subjugate and expand it's national borders. The idea that a nation still has this expansive mentality in 2015 is ludicrous, you think you can just invade your neighbours and nobody will notice?

I could have said last 200 years, I didn't. A lot of people did a lot of things in the 1800s that wouldn't fly in 2015.
So the Crimea and Donbass people will doesn't matter anything? Ofcourse they did it with the help of Russia, but they did it by themselves. Russia helped with organization, but people made a choise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2015, 12:44:21 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 12:00:17 pm
So the Crimea and Donbass people will doesn't matter anything? Ofcourse they did it with the help of Rrussia, but they did it by themselves. Rrussia helped with organization, but people made a choise.
ORLY? So... you call "help" what exactly? Brutual lying propaganda against current government? Little green men "ensuring peace"? Seemingly endless supplies of arms and ammo to artificially created conflict? In my dictionary such "help" is called aggression and all you do now is attempts at whitewashing the shit you stink of. russia did NOTHING to help stabilize the conflict, on the opposite - it created it where there was none (barring some unhappy people, which IS a common thing in absolute majority of democracies).

Take your "help" and go back to your shithole. Without your "help" there would be a lot more alive people, a lot less destruction and a lot less misery.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 12:54:26 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on April 29, 2015, 12:44:21 pm
ORLY? So... you call "help" what exactly? Brutual lying propaganda against current government? Little green men "ensuring peace"? Seemingly endless supplies of arms and ammo to artificially created conflict? In my dictionary such "help" is called aggression and all you do now is attempts at whitewashing the shit you stink of. russia did NOTHING to help stabilize the conflict, on the opposite - it created it where there was none (barring some unhappy people, which IS a common thing in absolute majority of democracies).

Take your "help" and go back to your shithole. Without your "help" there would be a lot more alive people, a lot less destruction and a lot less misery.
If you are talking about stabilization then you have to say about illegal revolution which was supported by the West first. And who supported ATO and shellings of the towns? If you think that Russia could close the eyes on it, you are dumb. And the opinion of the Crimea and Donbass people is the highest prioritet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 29, 2015, 12:58:32 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 12:00:17 pm
So the Crimea and Donbass people will doesn't matter anything? Ofcourse they did it with the help of Russia, but they did it by themselves. Russia helped with organization, but people made a choise.

Yeah, they made a choice because Russia forced them to make a choice. Russia basically threatened them and claimed that Ukraine is fa scist and will massmurder them all, if they dont rise against Ukraine. What would have happened to Donbass if they would have stayed with Ukraine? Nothing bad. Russia basically made Donbass feel that if they dont fight Ukraine, they are traitors and murderers themselves. How is that fair, Nicko?

Russia could have threatened Ukraine with words, if there were problems , to be more friendly to Donbass. Ukraine would have listened. All those people could have been still alive, happy and no battles. But no. Russia told Donbass "Start fighting now, or you all dead". Pretty much ruining all relations with Ukraine forever.

Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 12:54:26 pm
If you are talking about stabilization then you have to say about illegal revolution which was supported by the West first. And who supported ATO and shellings of the towns? If you think that Russia could close the eyes on it, you are dumb. And the opinion of the Crimea and Donbass people is the highest prioritet.

You have very little evidence of Western involvement. Before the "illegal revolution" Ukraine was not a country, but Russias slave. It is a country now.

But why do I even try to explain you anything. You just pick random words out of my posts, put em in different context and awnser to things i never asked you in the first place.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2015, 01:00:31 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 12:54:26 pm
If you are talking about stabilization then you have to say about illegal revolution which was supported by the West first. If you think that Russia could close the eyes on it, you are dumb. And the opinion of the Crimea and Donbass people is the highest prioritet.
Oh... so, lets see...

Its "West" fault - check.
Proofs provided - none - check.
russia has the right to defend... shit... react... shit... aa... well, russia has the right to create war in friendly neighbor countries - check.

I'm sorry, but only russian media was full of shit ala "naztees are taking over Ukraine". I failed to see anything in the western media of comparable level. And you, being SO EAGER to llisten to the will of the people suddenly denying it for Ukrainians, because "russia can't close its eyes on its puppet being removed from power" is just silly oxymoron.

Again - gather your help and get out of Ukraine. It would be much better for everyone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 01:04:23 pm
Tibe, lol, if you would visit Crimea in 90's and ask people if they want to join Russia, they would say yes. It is not just about current situation. Current power was aggressive and against Russia from the beginning. And Russia threatened Ukraine about ATO and from the beginning asked them to dialogue with Donbass if you don't remember. But now Ukraine is not a country, now it is USA puppet or slave if you want.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on April 29, 2015, 01:47:21 pm
join the dark side nicko, we have cookies here.
the donbass thing, they have tried the non-aggressive approach in crimea before and it have not worked so well.

oh by the way the tsar was overturned by an "illegal"  :rolleyes: revolution. and then the new government was replaced by another "illegal"  :rolleyes: revolution of the communists supported by the axis forces.
so by your logic todays russia (and most of the other contries in the world) is an illegal state because of an "illegal"  :rolleyes: revolution in the past.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 01:55:23 pm
Revolution in 1917 in Russia brought many deathes and problems, so I blame that revolution. I think that revolution was like in Ukraine now. They killed a lot of people to get into the power, so in Ukraine is happenning, but Ukraine is eu country with its ideology and Russian Empire was an evil
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2015, 02:22:55 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 01:04:23 pm
Tibe, lol, if you would visit Crimea in 90's and ask people if they want to join Russia, they would say yes. It is not just about current situation. Current power was aggressive and against Russia from the beginning. And Russia threatened Ukraine about ATO and from the beginning asked them to dialogue with Donbass if you don't remember. But now Ukraine is not a country, now it is USA puppet or slave if you want.
Last time "there are many <nationality> living there, that land must be ours" was used by... guess who!

If people are not happy with the country they live in - they are free to move on.

'It is not just about current situation. Current power was aggressive and against Russia from the beginning." - with good reasons too, given current bullshit that russia is feeding its neighbors.

And please tell me how the fuck is this even close to business as usual "And Russia threatened Ukraine about ATO and from the beginning asked them to dialogue with Donbass if you don't remember." and why/how it should/could be tolerated? ESPECIALLY after the shit they orchestrated in Crimea.

russia is not a country anymore, its a private putlers shithole full of sheep slaves working towards the advancement of their master and his gang. Oh, and that moron kadyrov, hope you like paying for his palace and parties with sell-off western Hollywood starz ;)

Oh, and latest bestest truth from the dimension of russians - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/30/world/europe/ukraine-separatists-rewrite-history-of-1930s-famine.html?smid=re-share
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 29, 2015, 07:23:19 pm
Something interesting is happening. Lvol local counsil ask to Rada a resolution to let Donbass and Crimea join Russia.
Why ? Let me explain what will happen next :

- Kiev prepare its army to another offensive before the total collapse of its economy (after, no more money to pay the troops).
And it will happen before summer, or this summer.
- They will probably loose another time. And collapse anyway.
Then, the Republic of Novorossia and Russia will negociate to instigate a Federation in Ukraine.
Ukrainian people will understand that the myth of a russian invasion was a lie and they'll revolt. The Putin's goal has never been to annex Donbass.

BUT Poland have views on Galicia. Galicia may join Poland. But before they need to separate from Ukraine. So, if Kiev admit to loose Crimea and Donbass, they may let Galicia join Poland.
There is officialy 3500 pole soldiers in Ukraine (in the Poland-Lithuania-Ukraine Brigade), to set the Ukr army to NATO standards. They are mainly based in Galicia.
In fact, not to protect Kiev regime, but to prepare the future annexion.
This map have been presented by Poland as a proposal for new Ukraine's borders :
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 29, 2015, 07:35:20 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 01:04:23 pm
Tibe, lol, if you would visit Crimea in 90's and ask people if they want to join Russia, they would say yes. It is not just about current situation. Current power was aggressive and against Russia from the beginning. And Russia threatened Ukraine about ATO and from the beginning asked them to dialogue with Donbass if you don't remember. But now Ukraine is not a country, now it is USA puppet or slave if you want.

Well arent you russians free and not slaves or puppets to anyone. :rolleyes: Ironically, from all your anti-west, USA imperialism fears of slavery, you have become slaves yourselves. Taking the example of North-Korea. North-Koreans arent USA-s puppets. Are they free? All countries are reliant of some other country. And by completely denying the West, Russia too will become reliant of someone else far stronger than them. Its just the way the world works, my friend. The road Russia is taking at this point will not make it rich and will not turn you self-sufficient. As I clearly read from your posts. Your hopes for Russia are entirely reliant on other countries actions. None of which are reliant on the actions of russians themselves.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 29, 2015, 07:37:00 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 29, 2015, 07:23:19 pm
Something interesting is happening. Lvol local counsil ask to Rada a resolution to let Donbass and Crimea join Russia.
Why ? Let me explain what will happen next :

- Kiev prepare its army to another offensive before the total collapse of its economy (after, no more money to pay the troops).
And it will happen before summer, or this summer.
- They will probably loose another time. And collapse anyway.
Then, the Republic of Novorossia and Russia will negociate to instigate a Federation in Ukraine.
Ukrainian people will understand that the myth of a russian invasion was a lie and they'll revolt. The Putin's goal has never been to annex Donbass.

BUT Poland have views on Galicia. Galicia may join Poland. But before they need to separate from Ukraine. So, if Kiev admit to loose Crimea and Donbass, they may let Galicia join Poland.
There is officialy 3500 pole soldiers in Ukraine (in the Poland-Lithuania-Ukraine Brigade), to set the Ukr army to NATO standards. They are mainly based in Galicia.
In fact, not to protect Kiev regime, but to prepare the future annexion.
This map have been presented by Poland as a proposal for new Ukraine's borders :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 08:09:12 pm
Quote from: Tibe on April 29, 2015, 07:35:20 pm
Well arent you russians free and not slaves or puppets to anyone. :rolleyes: Ironically, from all your anti-west, USA imperialism fears of slavery, you have become slaves yourselves. Taking the example of North-Korea. North-Koreans arent USA-s puppets. Are they free? All countries are reliant of some other country. And by completely denying the West, Russia too will become reliant of someone else far stronger than them. Its just the way the world works, my friend. The road Russia is taking at this point will not make it rich and will not turn you self-sufficient. As I clearly read from your posts. Your hopes for Russia are entirely reliant on other countries actions. None of which are reliant on the actions of russians themselves.
What road Russia is taking? I think you don't know
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 29, 2015, 08:17:43 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 29, 2015, 07:23:19 pm
This map have been presented by Poland as a proposal for new Ukraine's borders :

Ho god please do give sauce
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on April 29, 2015, 08:30:27 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 08:09:12 pm
What road Russia is taking? I think you don't know


Quote from: Kafein on April 29, 2015, 08:17:43 pm
Ho god please do give sauce

http://1-nah.ru/novosti/29642-polsha-obnarodovala-kartu-razdela-ukrainy.html ?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 29, 2015, 09:15:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 08:09:12 pm
What road Russia is taking? I think you don't know

Nobody really does, you guys never follow the rules. :D

Seeing from the distance however, its gonna stay the same as it always has or you will be someone elses puppets in 20 years. It would be an extremely gigantic suprise if Russia ends up being richer without being someones slaves. Cause you are highly reliant on China now. You said it yourself. All your posts are China, China, China. What, you think China wont take advantage of Russia? Everyone trades with China, Europe and USA are pissed at Russia. Obviously the chinese will fuck you hard with very high prices, if the West gets even more mad. Once more, China is not your ally, it just looks for profit. Ofcourse now im going far off my knowledgebase. I dont really know all this I just wrote up here. Im just heavly speculating at this point. Everyone is free to call my bullshit. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 29, 2015, 10:42:14 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 29, 2015, 07:23:19 pm
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Haha, ahahahaha

Hungary taking back Kárpátalja, are you fucking kidding me  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 29, 2015, 11:15:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on April 29, 2015, 08:09:12 pm
What road Russia is taking? I think you don't know
This? Speaking with yourself like a proper mentally sick would?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 30, 2015, 12:49:24 am
Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2015, 10:42:14 pm
Haha, ahahahaha

Hungary taking back Kárpátalja, are you fucking kidding me  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Looks like a EU4 screengrab to be honest. You can hear the gib clay.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 30, 2015, 03:22:47 am
Quote from: Christo on April 29, 2015, 10:42:14 pm
Haha, ahahahaha

Hungary taking back Kárpátalja, are you fucking kidding me  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
No no no Christo, it's TOTALLY legit, Poland proposes new borders where everyone has split off Ukraine, my common sense is NOT tickling. Have faith in Tovi! VERY good sources!

Please, Tovi, keep going!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on April 30, 2015, 04:49:11 am
 :mrgreen:

The only people who actually think this way are the Trianon-Revisionists, who still want to restore Hungary to what it was like before.

It's actually a common sticker on cars in this country

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well if you see one of these on a car (upside down is my favorite), you can be sure that the owner is a right-winger who most likely believes in the weirdest kind of conspiracy theories, like Hungarians are not Finno-Ugric but are Parthians, or Turanic, or that our ancestors arrived here from Sirius.

I swear there is a guy on television who preaches this shit. Crazy :)

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I should seriously translate some of his recorded videos to English, you would NOT believe the kind of shit he is talking. Reminds me of Tovi a lot.

I'll give you an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajka_alumina_plant_accident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajka_alumina_plant_accident)

This Szaniszló guy claimed on Echo-TV that the US and the Global 'Background Power' interests sent a fighter jet that destroyed the waste storage wall with laser-guided missiles.

And why? Because the socialists lost the vote in 2010 and this is how they avenged it on the fidesz party!   :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on April 30, 2015, 06:20:33 am
This is what Poland wants. I never said this is what will happen. But they will try.
I don't know much about Carpathia, but I know Galicia would like to quit Ukraine. By joining (back) Poland they would be directly in EU.


Galicia has been took from Poland in 1939 by Soviet Union.

The possibility of a Galicia secession is partly the reason why Kiev voted the law to celebrate the memory of the OUN and the UPA. These groups have killed 50 000 civilian poles (and also jews) during WW2.
This is a way, for Ukrainian nationalists, to remember to Galician people that Poland was an enemy of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 30, 2015, 06:41:59 am
It kinda makes sense now. Tovi is so mentally handicapped, that he thinks that real life politics play out like the game of EU4. Poland and Hungary annexing lands? Wat?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on April 30, 2015, 07:25:51 am
Quote from: Tibe on April 30, 2015, 06:41:59 am
It kinda makes sense now. Tovi is so mentally handicapped, that he thinks that real life politics play out like the game of EU4. Poland and Hungary annexing lands? Wat?
Whole NATO is one shameless land grab by teh evil empire... Don't you see that? Are you that blind? Use your butt for thinking instead of the boring head FOR ONCE!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on April 30, 2015, 08:04:43 am
Quote from: Kuujis on April 30, 2015, 07:25:51 am
Whole NATO is one shameless land grab by teh evil empire... Don't you see that? Are you that blind? Use your butt for thinking instead of the boring head FOR ONCE!
I wish you would live in Iraq or Libya, or just Donbass. I think you would love USA so much
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 30, 2015, 09:17:08 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 30, 2015, 08:04:43 am
I wish you would live in Iraq or Libya, or just Donbass. I think you would love USA so much
Yes, because those countries were such prime examples of great places to live in when the US attacked. Oh wait, no, they weren't, and nobody cares.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on April 30, 2015, 09:36:57 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 30, 2015, 08:04:43 am
I wish you would live in Iraq or Libya, or just Donbass. I think you would love USA so much

Yeah, they were bad and violent places before USA and they are bad now. And USA doesnt have anything to do with Donbass(yet, anyway). A lot of people in Iraq and Afganistan say that everything is pretty much the same as it was before USA. Things were bad one way, now they are bad in another ways.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on April 30, 2015, 11:31:49 am
The whole thing of deflecting negative statements is bullshit. We say "Russia is doing bad things now" we do not expect "But USA is doing worse things now". It's not relevant at all. This is a kind of reaction when someone says "you're a fаggot" and you reply "but Elton John is a bigger fаggot than me". Even if it's true, who cares?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tore on April 30, 2015, 04:39:39 pm
Quote from: Tovi on April 29, 2015, 07:23:19 pm
Something interesting is happening. Lvol local counsil ask to Rada a resolution to let Donbass and Crimea join Russia.
Why ? Let me explain what will happen next :

- Kiev prepare its army to another offensive before the total collapse of its economy (after, no more money to pay the troops).
And it will happen before summer, or this summer.
- They will probably loose another time. And collapse anyway.
Then, the Republic of Novorossia and Russia will negociate to instigate a Federation in Ukraine.
Ukrainian people will understand that the myth of a russian invasion was a lie and they'll revolt. The Putin's goal has never been to annex Donbass.

BUT Poland have views on Galicia. Galicia may join Poland. But before they need to separate from Ukraine. So, if Kiev admit to loose Crimea and Donbass, they may let Galicia join Poland.
There is officialy 3500 pole soldiers in Ukraine (in the Poland-Lithuania-Ukraine Brigade), to set the Ukr army to NATO standards. They are mainly based in Galicia.
In fact, not to protect Kiev regime, but to prepare the future annexion.
This map have been presented by Poland as a proposal for new Ukraine's borders :
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


How many rubles do you get paid?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on April 30, 2015, 05:01:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on April 30, 2015, 11:31:49 am
The whole thing of deflecting negative statements is bullshit. We say "Russia is doing bad things now" we do not expect "But USA is doing worse things now". It's not relevant at all. This is a kind of reaction when someone says "you're a fаggot" and you reply "but Elton John is a bigger fаggot than me". Even if it's true, who cares?
Elton John, a bundle of sticks? Golly!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on April 30, 2015, 06:04:30 pm
Quote from: Xant on April 30, 2015, 05:01:17 pm
Elton John, a bundle of sticks? Golly!

Well, if my tastes in music are any indicator of sexual orientation, I also really like Gary Numan, Tchaikovsky and Freddy Mercury. Elton John is definitely gay on that scale.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 01, 2015, 08:27:20 am
Quote from: DonNicko on April 30, 2015, 08:04:43 am
I wish you would live in Iraq or Libya, or just Donbass. I think you would love USA so much
Besides this being "watabautism at its best", I don't love them :) I think they made too many mistakes to take them at the value of their words.

Instead - I see NATO as the only reasonable way to NOT live in a fucking shithole that russia is. Instead - it gives a chance to try and become one of those rotten European nations, whose standard of living is considered as highest in the world (barring few exceptions).

Soo... yeah... keep loving your shithole russia and your cleptocracy, keep attempting at justifying them (both here and in your mind), and then wish your kids best of luck, when/IF they get a chance to study and live somewhere in the west, because you KNOW that will be the best for them. And then hope that they will not come back to your shithole.

Because thats what any responsible parent would do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 02, 2015, 08:53:07 pm
One year since Odessa massacre. Nobody arrested.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 02, 2015, 09:06:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 02, 2015, 08:53:07 pm
One year since Odessa massacre. Nobody arrested.
A year and a bit since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation. Nobody arrested and 8x% of sheeps still do not understand, that its a bullshit move.

EDIT: had to fix the "nobody arrested". The only sane and brave enough member of russian parliament might be soon arrested for voting wrong  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 02, 2015, 09:22:39 pm
Kuujis, go and prove that your country is the most suicidal country in the world  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 02, 2015, 10:29:43 pm
What a cute little barking sheep attempting at watabautizm... That one on the list of your "101 facts to know when on internets and communicating with rotten west" standard government issued "education" materials? :D 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 02, 2015, 10:38:51 pm
China, Russia to hold first-ever Mediterranean naval exercise :

http://rt.com/news/254613-china-russia-mediterranean-navy/


Who said they will never be allied ?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 02, 2015, 10:50:30 pm
Oh hey Tovi, did they let you out of the mental hospital again?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 02, 2015, 11:00:10 pm
Kiev will probably launch an offensive around the 9th of May.

As I said, they must attack before the collapse of their economy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 02, 2015, 11:31:36 pm
So is it just a vacation or did they let you go home for a longer period this time?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on May 03, 2015, 08:44:04 am
Perhaps they realised that he is too far beyond help to be worth keeping in the hospital
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 03, 2015, 09:04:52 am
I think the main accent in west is that mentally ill people are people too and as much as possible - they should not be in a hospital. Thats why Tovi is free... HOWEVER - if he had "mirrored" ideas about west being cool, etc while living  in russia and was expressing them so eagerly - I think he would not be "untreated" for long...

What an irony :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 03, 2015, 04:00:32 pm
I wish I could get payed by Kremlin to post pro-rus thoughts that have been shaped by reading crap like RT extensively.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 03, 2015, 04:23:51 pm
Well, the Naval Maneuvers in the Mediterranean are actually real.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 03, 2015, 04:45:37 pm
And? They had targetpracticeexercises as far as I know. Chinas only beef with USA is that it is friends with Japan. It has no hate towards US itself. But our local thread idiot considers this as the building of a stable anti-US WW3 front. Like Nicko, Tovi only reads certain parts of news and posts, pulls shit out of context and places it on his conspiracytheorywall.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 03, 2015, 07:01:19 pm
Pls Tibe, stop commenting on Tovi's posts as if he wasn't mentally a child.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 03, 2015, 08:08:54 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 03, 2015, 04:45:37 pm
And? They had targetpracticeexercises as far as I know. Chinas only beef with USA is that it is friends with Japan. It has no hate towards US itself. But our local thread idiot considers this as the building of a stable anti-US WW3 front. Like Nicko, Tovi only reads certain parts of news and posts, pulls shit out of context and places it on his conspiracytheorywall.
Well China doesn't hate USA, but there were some protests in China, which were supported by USA, and China diplomats blamed USA for that. And some other bad actions from USA towards China. Same scenario - Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, there were some attempts in Belarus(Lukashenko said that by himself, he arrested all of them, they were trained in Polland, not my words but president of Belarus). Well I don't believe that this just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 03, 2015, 09:50:40 pm
The statements of the last dictator in Europe are sure trustworthy and true...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 03, 2015, 10:18:53 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 03, 2015, 09:50:40 pm
The statements of the last dictator in Europe are sure trustworthy and true...
lol, so propoganded ahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 03, 2015, 10:45:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 03, 2015, 10:18:53 pm
lol, so propoganded ahahaha
"Propoganded" indeed. Feel free to read his wiki page or any other neutral source about him. But of course you'll claim anything that doesn't confirm what you think is western "propoganded"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 03, 2015, 11:52:49 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 03, 2015, 10:18:53 pm
lol, so propoganded ahahaha
Are you really this silly or are you now just saying "Lies!" out of principle?
On the other hand, a person who thinks Russia is a democratic country would probably think the same about Belarus...

Much democracy no oppression wow
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 04, 2015, 12:40:48 am
Quote from: Molly on May 03, 2015, 11:52:49 pm
On the other hand, a person who thinks Russia is a democratic country would probably think the same about Belarus...

That is actually not all that accurate. Belarus is very hardcore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 06:46:50 am
Quote from: Xant on May 03, 2015, 10:45:23 pm
"Propoganded" indeed. Feel free to read his wiki page or any other neutral source about him. But of course you'll claim anything that doesn't confirm what you think is western "propoganded"
Xant, I read about him, so what? USA called him a dictator, because some oppositional politics were disappeared. Politics which were close to USA ahahaha (Lukashenko is lovable president by his nation). In Ukraine twice more oppositional politics were killed. And EU calls this democratic. ahahhahah.
Anyways this doesn't cancel that fact that same scenario was made in Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine(Nice how Firtash said the truth about USA involvement in changing regiment in Kiev) and some attempts in Belarus. Ofcourse you are propoganded ahahaha if you don't see that
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 04, 2015, 09:49:30 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 06:46:50 am
Xant, I read about him, so what? USA called him a dictator, because some oppositional politics were disappeared. Politics which were close to USA ahahaha (Lukashenko is lovable president by his nation). In Ukraine twice more oppositional politics were killed. And EU calls this democratic. ahahhahah.
Anyways this doesn't cancel that fact that same scenario was made in Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine(Nice how Firtash said the truth about USA involvement in changing regiment in Kiev) and some attempts in Belarus. Ofcourse you are propoganded ahahaha if you don't see that

Nicko, read something before you post. If you knew who Firtash is you wouldn't use his name and the word "truth" in one sentence. Lukashenko IS a dictator no matter if he is loved by his nation (he sure is) or not. He is stuck between the hammer and the anvil as well as Yanukovych at the time and he's not a trustworthy ally for Russia IMO because he understands that if he acts wrong - Crimea and Donbass in Belarus.

It's really funny to read you because you speak a total nonsense. What an irony - you mentioned 3 countries territories of which were annexed by Russia and you claim that it's US' fault. Thanks Obama. Now look how those territories live and tell me they live as good as Russia or even any part of the rest of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 10:05:37 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 04, 2015, 09:49:30 am
Nicko, read something before you post. If you knew who Firtash is you wouldn't use his name and the word "truth" in one sentence. Lukashenko IS a dictator no matter if he is loved by his nation (he sure is) or not. He is stuck between the hammer and the anvil as well as Yanukovych at the time and he's not a trustworthy ally for Russia IMO because he understands that if he acts wrong - Crimea and Donbass in Belarus.

It's really funny to read you because you speak a total nonsense. What an irony - you mentioned 3 countries territories of which were annexed by Russia and you claim that it's US' fault. Thanks Obama. Now look how those territories live and tell me they live as good as Russia or even any part of the rest of Ukraine.
Ahaha Dave, ask Nebun how Moldova live now. Doesn't matter who Firtash is, his words are not nonsense. Ahaha Crimea and Donbass in Belarus, where? There wasn't such anti russian propoganda. Belarus is Belarus. And there are two official languages. Your politics are too stupid to accept it. Or I think they can, but USA. As I see, Osetia, Crimea, Donbass and other people are nothing for you, as you said most of them are Bydlo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 04, 2015, 11:26:42 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 10:05:37 am
Ahaha Dave, ask Nebun how Moldova live now. Doesn't matter who Firtash is, his words are not nonsense. Ahaha Crimea and Donbass in Belarus, where? There wasn't such anti russian propoganda. Belarus is Belarus. And there are two official languages. Your politics are too stupid to accept it. Or I think they can, but USA. As I see, Osetia, Crimea, Donbass and other people are nothing for you, as you said most of them are Bydlo.

I'm not speaking about Moldova, I'm speaking about Transnistria, South Osetia, Abkhazia and Donbass.
You're a great example of what they call bydlo actually. Stupid and poor educated.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 04, 2015, 11:34:01 am
Siberian schools have a snowday most of the year, its not his fault he is poorly educated.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 11:35:24 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 04, 2015, 11:26:42 am
I'm not speaking about Moldova, I'm speaking about Transnistria, South Osetia, Abkhazia and Donbass.
You're a great example of what they call bydlo actually. Stupid and poor educated.
Transnistria, South Osetia, Abkhazia and Donbass people are nothing for you, you just shit on their opinion, you would suck USA balls to live better, ahahah but you want - great examples - Moldova, Georgia and current Ukraine(already tried in 2004, just started to suck more). Yes, silver medal in school and red diploma in University are great example of Bydlo, at least we don't run on the steets shouting death to enemies. You act just like one of those who killed people in Odessa.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 11:36:18 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 04, 2015, 11:34:01 am
Siberian schools have a snowday most of the year, its not his fault he is poorly educated.
Ahahah Tatarstan in Siberia, ahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 04, 2015, 12:44:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 11:35:24 am
Transnistria, South Osetia, Abkhazia and Donbass people are nothing for you, you just shit on their opinion, you would suck USA balls to live better, ahahah but you want - great examples - Moldova, Georgia and current Ukraine(already tried in 2004, just started to suck more). Yes, silver medal in school and red diploma in University are great example of Bydlo, at least we don't run on the steets shouting death to enemies. You act just like one of those who killed people in Odessa.
Nah, you just beat homosexuals to death, fake-judge journalists, beat on women and overall act like savages.
*thumbs up*

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 04, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 11:35:24 am
Transnistria, South Osetia, Abkhazia and Donbass people are nothing for you, you just shit on their opinion, you would suck USA balls to live better, ahahah but you want - great examples - Moldova, Georgia and current Ukraine(already tried in 2004, just started to suck more). Yes, silver medal in school and red diploma in University are great example of Bydlo, at least we don't run on the steets shouting death to enemies. You act just like one of those who killed people in Odessa.
Yeah... russian education - bestest education. Also - an ECONOMIST education (IIRC)... a.k.a. know nothing-speak about everything, your own words, cba to find exact quote :)

All the territories, which russia "tried" to "free", or "protect locals from..." are fucked up now and thus russias neighbors are naturally searching who could protect them (read: NATO). If you beat a guy and he invites another one to protect him, even form a "gang" with him/others - is it your fault or the other guys are being not fair for not wanting to be at your fucked-up mercy? Please - oh red-diploma silver-medalist sheep - tell us the truth! (or at least russian fantasy version of it).

HINT: OF COURSE its US fault, never russians. Those born in shit cant be faulted for dragging everyone else into the same shithole and proclaiming them "defended" or "liberated"...

Btw, another neighbor also feels secure...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/in-kazakhstan-fears-of-becoming-the-next-ukraine/2015/05/01/10f7e73c-e878-11e4-8581-633c536add4b_story.html?postshare=881430660268751
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 04:24:19 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 04, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
Yeah... russian education - bestest education. Also - an ECONOMIST education (IIRC)... a.k.a. know nothing-speak about everything, your own words, cba to find exact quote :)

All the territories, which russia "tried" to "free", or "protect locals from..." are fucked up now and thus russias neighbors are naturally searching who could protect them (read: NATO). If you beat a guy and he invites another one to protect him, even form a "gang" with him/others - is it your fault or the other guys are being not fair for not wanting to be at your fucked-up mercy? Please - oh red-diploma silver-medalist sheep - tell us the truth! (or at least russian fantasy version of it).

HINT: OF COURSE its US fault, never russians. Those born in shit cant be faulted for dragging everyone else into the same shithole and proclaiming them "defended" or "liberated"...

Btw, another neighbor also feels secure...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/in-kazakhstan-fears-of-becoming-the-next-ukraine/2015/05/01/10f7e73c-e878-11e4-8581-633c536add4b_story.html?postshare=881430660268751
Ahahaha, if you remember I was against joining of Crimea. But what I see, guys, you never count an opinion of people. If you really don't see how new economical wars are working you are just blind as you are ahahaha. Nothing can help you
Kazakhstan ahaha nice propoganda, ask Melendil about, he is real Kazakh.
Ahaha you are so propoganded, I really don't watch TV, I prefer to ask people who lives there to know what's happening. And you read such bullshit as washingtonpost ahahahah
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 04:29:52 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2015, 12:44:33 pm
Nah, you just beat homosexuals to death, fake-judge journalists, beat on women and overall act like savages.
*thumbs up*
Well, yes. But those people who beat are in jail, about women watch femen, aren't they beaten in EU ahaha. Fake-judge don't remember but possible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dezilagel on May 04, 2015, 04:56:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 04:29:52 pm
about women watch femen, aren't they beaten in EU

Nope.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 05:44:40 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on May 04, 2015, 04:56:04 pm
Nope.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 04, 2015, 07:00:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 05:44:40 pm

thats not even the same thing, apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 07:09:59 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 04, 2015, 07:00:25 pm
thats not even the same thing, apples and oranges.
Small lie or Big lie is a lie, learn it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 04, 2015, 08:16:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 07:09:59 pm
Small lie or Big lie is a lie, learn it

lel, we've got a new Cicero over here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 04, 2015, 08:28:54 pm
They got beaten because they were very agressive protesting cunts. Not because they were women. You, learn to make difference between 2 situations. I swear, you are like tovi. Xaxaxaxa let me take random videos and news about EU out of context and post.xaxaxa
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 08:32:45 pm
Show me then where in Russia people beat not very agressive protesting cunts
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 04, 2015, 08:53:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 04:24:19 pm
Ahahaha, if you remember I was against joining of Crimea. But what I see, guys, you never count an opinion of people. If you really don't see how new economical wars are working you are just blind as you are ahahaha. Nothing can help you
Kazakhstan ahaha nice propoganda, ask Melendil about, he is real Kazakh.
Ahaha you are so propoganded, I really don't watch TV, I prefer to ask people who lives there to know what's happening. And you read such bullshit as washingtonpost ahahahah
You on "ahahaha" drugs or just drunk on being a full'o'shit red-diploma moron, unable to answer a simple question? Let me rephrase it:
If you beat a guy and he invites another one to protect him, even form a "gang" with him/others - is it your fault or the other guys are being not fair for not wanting to be at your fucked-up mercy? Please - oh red-diploma silver-medalist sheep - tell us the truth!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 09:23:41 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 04, 2015, 08:53:23 pm
You on "ahahaha" drugs or just drunk on being a full'o'shit red-diploma moron, unable to answer a simple question? Let me rephrase it:
If you beat a guy and he invites another one to protect him, even form a "gang" with him/others - is it your fault or the other guys are being not fair for not wanting to be at your fucked-up mercy? Please - oh red-diploma silver-medalist sheep - tell us the truth!
Ahahaha shit question as always, I answered nothing can help you if you can't understand new economic wars
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 04, 2015, 09:42:47 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 08:32:45 pm
Show me then where in Russia people beat not very agressive protesting cunts



a bit hard to find a "gay protest" as it is as far as im aware, illegal to do such a thing in your wonderful country, hence the apples and oranges comment.  Regardless, the first video about midway through shows just what you wanted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 04, 2015, 09:50:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 09:23:41 pm
Ahahaha shit question as always, I answered nothing can help you if you can't understand new economic wars
Ahahaha = krokodil?

Apart from "new economic wars" sounding like "http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/008/305/its-a-conspiracy.jpg" - I'll bite :)

Soo.... your red diploma want's to tell me, that US had so little to do, what with the weariness in middle east, lack of wish to get involved in Syria or any other conflicts for that matter (at least in recent years), attempts to get out of numerous "excursions" that they started meddling with Ukraine, because.... ? Whats the motive again? Have your red toilet paper been printed with anything resembling "Ukraine weariness", as an geopolitical term? So thats on one side of the scale: west, with little interest in big poor country with little strategic resources, barring the pipelines.

On the other side of the scales - populace, which MIGHT have simply had enough of russian imported cleptocracy and once the spark was created by Yanu via not signing a treaty in VNO - it fucking exploded. Sheeps in russia think don't think that something coming from ground up is possible and when they see their slavic brothers trying to get out of the shithole they are in - it must be the west plot or something.

If you still think that first is more likely, than the second - you fucking need to travel the world more and see some. Besides your shit-diploma.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 04, 2015, 09:57:17 pm
Ugh....Why even bother, he can just spin this as CIA consipracy or something whenever he's at loss for words or explanations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 04, 2015, 10:09:33 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 10:24:47 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 04, 2015, 09:42:47 pm
a bit hard to find a "gay protest" as it is as far as im aware, illegal to do such a thing in your wonderful country, hence the apples and oranges comment.  Regardless, the first video about midway through shows just what you wanted.
And where are girls? I didn't say anything about gays. Show me girld beaten
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on May 04, 2015, 10:48:31 pm
Not a grill either, but doublechecking elections seems also to deserve a beating http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/34t9m6/russian_official_severely_beaten_after_reporting/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 04, 2015, 10:51:52 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 04, 2015, 10:54:02 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 10:24:47 pm
And where are girls? I didn't say anything about gays. Show me girld beaten

my fav photo

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 10:56:34 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 04, 2015, 10:54:02 pm
my fav photo

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

And not cunts, read previous messages pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on May 04, 2015, 10:59:46 pm
How can they be girls without cunts?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 11:05:30 pm
Quote from: Moncho on May 04, 2015, 10:59:46 pm
How can they be girls without cunts?
Don't know, but I heard that in Europe it can be
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 05, 2015, 12:47:26 am
I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Nicko, is it SO EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that Ukrainians were sick of their own system and that's the basic reason behind the revolution?

They had very good reason too, their country had been steered like shit, and they could just look over the border and see how well Poland is doing to get an idea how things could have been. East or West? What is best?

If you think eastern system is better, you need a serious reality check. I'm an absolutely average middle class Norwegian. Seriously no special perks from birth. Come visit me, and we can sail on the Oslo fjord together, we can go to the mountains and ski, go anywhere totally safe. Everyone can have a decent life there. Everyone. The same for most of western Europe. If you can work, if you are not an idiot or a slob, you WILL BE FINE.

Now, the Ukrainan (Obvious by now) choice was too much for Russia, so they used the chaos of the revolution to quickly snag Crimea. They then proceeded to punish Ukraine for their choice, and making god damn sure, that a good decent life will never arrive in Ukraine by having a perpetual dagger placed in it's side. Ready to be twisted at Putins command.

That's the simple truth.

The west is far less morally corrupt than Russia. Poles are still Poles, Estonians are still Estonians. Swedes are still swedes in the EU. There is no hatred towards russians, just Russia/AKA/Putin.

Kissinger says in his new book, that Russians, even the intellectual ones, never really saw Ukraine as a separate country from Russia. This is the problem. Loosing Ukraine to the west makes Russians see red. It also symbolizes the final nail in the coffin for the Russian empire, and the Russian feeling of greatness and equalness to the US and the west.

I'm very sorry to say this. But the Russian SYSTEM (way of doing things) has already lost a long time ago. The world has moved on.


It is however almost impossible to acknowledge that this has happened for 1 person. For a whole people it is completely impossible.

So I don't blame you..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on May 05, 2015, 07:31:57 am
I don't think Norway is a good example.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 07:55:48 am
Thomek, I know we can be the friends, you can also visit me in Russia, you can live here for free and we can visit all things you said here absolutely safe. Many of my american friends stayed at me, so welcome.
I was against joining of Crimea. But I say that most of the crimenians wanted to join Russia even before the revolution.
West is better in many cases, but not at all. Even Putin always says that, and we need to reach western standards.
I understand ukrainians, that they were sick of their system, but look who took the power in Kiev, they are all oligarchs. You think people wanted them in power. Donbass was against this revolution. Why you guys don't count their opinion? That's the question.
Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine I can see clear involvement of USA. It is not like only people sick of government, most of people don't understand how revolution will destroy their lifes. You can see what Poroshenko promised, what USA promised to Ukraine. USA will just buy all production in Ukraine. I lol'ed when they invited Saakashvili, I lol'ed when they took ministers from other countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 08:15:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 07:55:48 am
Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine I can see clear involvement of USA. It is not like only people sick of government, most of people don't understand how revolution will destroy their lifes. You can see what Poroshenko promised, what USA promised to Ukraine. USA will just buy all production in Ukraine. I lol'ed when they invited Saakashvili, I lol'ed when they took ministers from other countries.

I dont really see the USA involvement at all in any of these. Especially Moldova and Georgia. These 3 countries have a lot in common you know, which is why they are struggling. All of them have governments with soviet mentality, in which they put everything they see in their pockets. Not to mention they want better relations with Europe, which Russia isnt happy about. Because Russia considers Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine its own. And all of these countries have massive russian minorities, which Russia abuses for its own gains.

How are you this blind nicko? Russia funded and scared separatists to fight their governments in all these 3 countries. Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine all have violent pro-rus separatistareas. Tell me how shouldnt rest of East-EU not be scared if your government successfully started separatistmovements in all these countries? I still fail to see how USA related in any of this. It all seems made up bullshit. Cause the only soldiers in these countries that are not in their homeland are russian troops.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 08:24:48 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 08:15:58 am
I dont really see the USA involvement at all in any of these. Especially Moldova and Georgia. These 3 countries have a lot in common you know, which is why they are struggling. All of them have governments with soviet mentality, in which they put everything they see in their pockets. Not to mention they want better relations with Europe, which Russia isnt happy about. Because Russia considers Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine its own. And all of these countries have massive russian minorities, which Russia abuses for its own gains.

How are you this blind nicko? Russia funded and scared separatists to fight their governments in all these 3 countries. Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine all have violent pro-rus separatistareas. Tell me how shouldnt rest of East-EU not be scared if your government successfully started separatistmovements in all these countries? I still fail to see how USA related in any of this. It all seems made up bullshit. Cause the only soldiers in these countries that are not in their homeland are russian troops.
Tibe the fact that you don't see that is OK, because your media doesn't show it to you. Ask Nebun about Moldova, he will tell you what happened there. There was direct involvement of USA. Same in Georgia and Ukraine. USA even don't hide it. A lot of visiting of USA high-ranking people, generals and so on, you think they just drank a tea?
Violent separatists? Where? Who started to kill first?
Moldova didn't have enough power, Georgia started first, Revolution in Kiev then Odessa, then ATO. And many other countries in Africa and East where USA supported agressive groups.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 08:39:16 am
Nebun is wrong and full of shit. If i didnt know any better he was trolling himself. And USA is hiding it rather well cause I dont see shit about it. And Moldova has also asston of similar reporters like in Russia and Argentina, where they just blame usa for things it was never even remotely part of. "YOUR media", is incredibly corrupt and entirely run by the government. Which makes it even less believable than MY media. Dont you think its rather wierd that the only media in the world that shows this is yours? That the only country that claims that Europe has a na zism crysis is only yours? Moldova was actually threatened by Russia, that they would join Romania otherwise(a thing that never happened btw), which is why the separatists took up arms, same as Ukraine. Dont really know about Georgia. Its your words against theirs. Georgia and Russia both are massive liars to the media, so I cant really tell.

Nebun chose a side and is very blindly sticking to it. His opinions were bullshit the instant he started to spit random consiracytheories in his posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 08:51:43 am
Why you think that Nebun is wrong? You don't see a numerous visits of american politics in this countries before some kind of conflicts? Really I prefer to listen people who lives in places where conflict happens.
The fact that you blame only Russia just shows that you are blind, because you see only one side of medal. And because of that I can make conclusion that your media says half the truth that is near a lie
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 09:06:42 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 07:55:48 am
<...bukkake...>
West is better in many cases, but not at all. Even Putin always says that, and we need to reach western standards.
Please name "not all", I'd like to laugh. Humor me :)

Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 07:55:48 am
I understand ukrainians, that they were sick of their system, but look who took the power in Kiev, they are all oligarchs. You think people wanted them in power. Donbass was against this revolution. Why you guys don't count their opinion? That's the question.
Who are YOU and who is rUSSIA to question legitimate and proper, as witnessed by the remainder of the world, elections and their results? Revolution happened, people said enough, after that there were proper elections, your and your shit-countries oppinions do not matter anymore.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 07:55:48 am
Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine I can see clear involvement of USA. <...bukkake...> I lol'ed when they invited Saakashvili, I lol'ed when they took ministers from other countries.
I don't see clear involvement by US, please DO point it out. However - I DO see troops of russia being involved in all 3 areas... Some kind of shit russian vision I guess, not seeing the troops but always seeing "THE WEST" or "THE US"...  :rolleyes:

Also - its a good practice to involve external talent in fixin ones prolems with management. I.E. when a big corporation starts internal reforms - its usually a new team at the top OR external experts doing the review and advising. Your lol's are surprising for a red diploma economist... they truly are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 09:19:48 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 09:06:42 am
I don't see clear involvement by US
Stop sucking a dick turn your head around and you will see. Ahahahaha
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 09:06:42 am
I DO see troops of russia being involved in all 3 areas
What areas? I know only one where Russian troops had direct involvement, show me two others please ahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 09:52:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 08:51:43 am
Why you think that Nebun is wrong? You don't see a numerous visits of american politics in this countries before some kind of conflicts? Really I prefer to listen people who lives in places where conflict happens.
The fact that you blame only Russia just shows that you are blind, because you see only one side of medal. And because of that I can make conclusion that your media says half the truth that is near a lie

Theres so much american politicians all around the world. Can very easly just be coincidence, that you guys read as conspiracy. And how could I not blame Russia? 3 countries, next to Russia, lots of russian speaking minorities, all somehow succumed to armed rebelions and war, which russia fully supports and never even tries to stop until the countries are at its knees. In the past 20 years, no other countries in Europe have such difficulty as russian neibhours who try to be friends with EU and Russia at the same time. Not to mention despite your "american visits" bullcrap, a lot of the people in these 3 countries governments get payed by Kremlin or some other suspicious eastern places.

I can even see this in the Baltic aswell. Our capitals major is a massive pro-rus guy and he constantly visits Moscow, which he never explains and him and his party keep getting money from very wierd eastern places. Unlike our pro-rus politicians who are clearly bribed by someone in Kremlin, our pro-US politicans arent getting money from USA for example. I know its hard to believe but the USA does not care about Baltic, Moldova, Georgia or Ukraine. Because they are in Russias area of influence. Even if USA could bribe and sceme them to join their side they couldnt keep it(even if they could they would get no profit). Russia will always be a massive influence to these countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 10:01:23 am
Why do you think they are not paid by USA? I don't say anything about Russia interests, but the fact that you don't see the hand of USA and you clearly see only the hand of Russia shows me that you are propoganded not that much as Kuujis, but anyway you see only one side of medal
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 10:11:08 am
Because the pro-USA guys arent trying to change the country to profit USA, while the pro-Rus guys are trying to change the country to profit Russia. I think I see both sides of the medal. You said you belive people who live in the area of the conflicts. And I am in the area, that could be considered as somewhat conflicted. What? You dont believe me because im pro-West and clearly propagated. But you believe Nebun because he's pro-Rus and he's clearly seeing everything?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 10:12:54 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 10:11:08 am
Because the pro-USA guys arent trying to change the country to profit USA, while the pro-Rus guys are trying to change the country to profit Russia.
Why then pro-USA or USA guys buy countries big manufactures?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 10:16:05 am
Dunno about Baltic. Majority of our manufacturies, I think belong to our or russian buisnessmen. And how the hell is this even related? :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 10:35:16 am
Again I don't say about russian interests, but I also say that USA has their interests, look for example on the son of Biden.
Medal  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 10:47:09 am
Lol Hunter Biden. Thats a desperate attemt to look for a connection, I still dont see how USA would get even a fraction of Burismas profits, through Bidens son. Well, you got one connection, that barely holds water, il give you that. And its only a small part in Ukraine. Got any on Moldova and Georgia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 11:29:26 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 09:19:48 am
Stop sucking a dick turn your head around and you will see. AhahahahaWhat areas? I know only one where Russian troops had direct involvement, show me two others please ahahaha
Some shit-vision you have there mate.

Moldova - last I checked, those russian "peacekeepers" were the only reason the frozen conflict remains. As well as it being the reason the whole shit came about. ruskies had to leave their equipement according to the agreements and leave, instead they opened fire on army of Moldova, which had no choice but to sigh ceasfire - kinda like Ukraine now. Totally western powers at fault. No doubt.

Georgia - ruskies again came in to defend compatriots in another country, AFTER giving out pasports left and right to create "legitimacy". In progress of annexing the 2 separatist territories... Again - the whole war and provocation stuff - totally WEST created, no russian soldiers there.

Ukraine... well... starting with fucking green men who are not there, then they are there, then there is a movie about a liar president and lies turn out to be praise-worthy... whole fucking conflict was created by russian media and backed by russian army: both controlled, manipulated and directed by your paranoid cleptocracy... But yes, its MUCH MORE likely, that its the rotten west fault...

Now when shit hits the fan in Kazachstan - it will be west fault again, because kazachs will ellect "wrong president" after the current one dies...

Damn... red diploma with such knowledge... you sure it was not a "pink diploma", which is sometimes given to retarded kids? As a "well, at least you tried very hard" present?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 11:32:56 am
Nice, Kuujis you learnt to google ahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 11:36:17 am
Nicko is just like Tovi, he receives information from his sources and treats it like if it was an ultimate truth. The problem that it's not even close and nothing can be an ultimate truth. Once he realizes it (he won't, who am I fooling?) he'll stop posting crap. Just a random picture of attitude towards certain things in Ukraine. December of 2014 and November of 2013 (note: 4 months before Yanukovych fled). Not sure if it's really accurate but it shows the real tendency in society. Picture from Deutsche Welle.

Friendly, Partnership, Neutral, Tension, Enemy, hard to answer.

EU
Germany
France
Poland
Russia
Belarus
Georgia
USA
NATO
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 11:48:57 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 04, 2015, 11:35:24 am
Yes, silver medal in school and red diploma in University are great example of Bydlo, at least we don't run on the steets shouting death to enemies. You act just like one of those who killed people in Odessa.

Yeah, you're bydlo because of other reasons. Nice try bragging with it. Your red diploma in economics is just nothing. Also your knowledge of English makes it hard to believe. What is it with the silver medal? One B (4 or whatever system you have) mark during the whole study? Even if it was for English classes - how did you get it? That pretty much sums up the education in Russia. That's why kids from Dagestan who can barely speak Russian manage to get 100% marks on the final exams for Russian classes. We all know who goes to economical faculties in former USSR: right, those who don't want to study hard or can't attend any other faculty. There is even a common joke:

What do you say to a recently graduated economist?
Double cheeseburger and medium cola please.

So please calm your tits and brag with that cheap crap somewhere else. It's like bragging with 12cm penis.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 11:57:50 am
Can I brag with 16cm?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 11:59:33 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 11:32:56 am
Nice, Kuujis you learnt to google ahahahaha

Nice answer Nicko, you always on krokodil "ahahahaha" now or only when your flesh stops to rot and brains start to be affected?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 12:00:58 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 11:57:50 am
Can I brag with 16cm?
Only against Nicko and Tovi, becaus everyone else have longer ones :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 12:07:56 pm
Nice jokes Dave, you started acting like your media using jokes to prove something
photofact of russian involvement
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 12:12:31 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 12:07:56 pm
Nice jokes Dave, you started acting like your media using jokes to prove something
photofact of russian involvement
(click to show/hide)

What I wrote wasn't a joke. Jokes on you.

And what do you mean "your media"? I don't have any media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 12:27:53 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 12:12:31 pm
What I wrote wasn't a joke. Jokes on you.

And what do you mean "your media"? I don't have any media.
Of course you don't have any, dumb. I was talking about ukrainians one. You always talk about my english as a judgement of all my knowledge. That's why you are just one of that kids who try to judge smth they don't know, maybe you should visit Donbass with your opinion. Or maybe People in Japan are stupid bydlo?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 01:38:57 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 12:27:53 pm
Of course you don't have any, dumb. I was talking about ukrainians one. You always talk about my english as a judgement of all my knowledge. That's why you are just one of that kids who try to judge smth they don't know, maybe you should visit Donbass with your opinion. Or maybe People in Japan are stupid bydlo?
So you have one news source: russian media (or russian media influenced "locals" who "know shit") and you are calling others "dumb"...

Please remind me how that saying in russian goes "you are painting other with the thing you smell like"... "chem pachnysh, tem y drugych mazhysh" or was it a PREMIUM QUALITY creation of mine which I should (c)?  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 02:02:54 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 01:38:57 pm
So you have one news source: russian media (or russian media influenced "locals" who "know shit") and you are calling others "dumb"...

Please remind me how that saying in russian goes "you are painting other with the thing you smell like"... "chem pachnysh, tem y drugych mazhysh" or was it a PREMIUM QUALITY creation of mine which I should (c)?  :lol:
I don't like russian media, they are so boring and a lot of propoganda. Our media shows only one side of medal too.
And yes you should (c) it. I think russian one is "Каждый судит о жизни со своей колокольни"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 02:29:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 02:02:54 pm
I don't like russian media, they are so boring and a lot of propoganda. Our media shows only one side of medal too.
And yes you should (c) it. I think russian one is "Каждый судит о жизни со своей колокольни"
You DO understand, that you are gathering you info from environment which IS poluted by media, which was proven to lie and make up stories times and times again?

Its a myth, that there are two even sides of the medal. You can't go saying, that if western media say 50!, russian media says -50, then the truth is 0. Unfortunately - it is much more likely that truth is 25, or even more, depending on what sources you include on the western side and how you select them.

Greatest victory of russian media, achieved by manipulating western values of dialogue and encouragement of pluralism of opinion, was that russian POV (or more to the point - putlers reality) was sold as legitimate enough to be even considered. And then Merkel goes out of a meeting with putler and calls Obama to say "he is in a different reality".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on May 05, 2015, 02:46:19 pm
Maybe he shouldn't have taken those guys with red diplomata for his senior staff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 02:49:04 pm
I prefer watching interviews with people, no media. And I wish you would do the same.
Medal is not like something opposite each other it completes each other. So if westren media is 50 and russian media is 50, then it is 100.
You say that Russia has interests, and I say yes they have. Then I say but USA have too and you say NO NO they don't, because of that I say that you see only one side of medal
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 05, 2015, 03:20:27 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 03:30:34 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 02:49:04 pm
I prefer watching interviews with people, no media. And I wish you would do the same.
Medal is not like something opposite each other it completes each other. So if westren media is 50 and russian media is 50, then it is 100.
You say that Russia has interests, and I say yes they has. Then I say but USA has too and you say NO NO they don't, because of that I say that you see only one side of medal
Awesome, interviews with people, 80% of who get most of their news via russian media. I consider my point proved.

So if westren media is 50 and russian media is 50, then it is 100. Simply no. russian media is in reality of their own, I do not see, how they can be trusted in the least. Even less their "interviews",  because I see fucking actors everywhere :D They are waging a propaganda war, doing more-or-less good work at it and you choose to ignore this fact as well as that your compatriots and people in "wanabeseparatist" areas are pumped so full of kremlins propaganda, that ANY attempt at reasoning becomes similar to the discourse we have here. a.k.a. shitfest.

USA has interests, russia has interestes, but got forbid Ukrainians want to try choosing ANYTHING. You suddenly consider their oppinion invalid and some media-created zombies suddenly have to be defended by force.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 03:42:50 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 03:30:34 pm
Awesome, interviews with people, 80% of who get most of their news via russian media. I consider my point proved.

So if westren media is 50 and russian media is 50, then it is 100. Simply no. russian media is in reality of their own, I do not see, how they can be trusted in the least. Even less their "interviews",  because I see fucking actors everywhere :D They are waging a propaganda war, doing more-or-less good work at it and you choose to ignore this fact as well as that your compatriots and people in "wanabeseparatist" areas are pumped so full of kremlins propaganda, that ANY attempt at reasoning becomes similar to the discourse we have here. a.k.a. shitfest.

USA has interests, russia has interestes, but got forbid Ukrainians want to try choosing ANYTHING. You suddenly consider their oppinion invalid and some media-created zombies suddenly have to be defended by force.
Do you read previous messages? I've already said that russian media is full of propoganda. And you again accuse me in what I didn't wrote, you are writing so like people in Donbass learn that they were shelled by themselves or by Kiev only from propoganda. I would say that you just don't know the opinion of all people who is involved in this conflict, Medal  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on May 05, 2015, 03:46:57 pm
This really is the best source on this particular... business. https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Vladimir_Putin#Reconquest_of_Russian_Land
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 03:51:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 02:49:04 pm
You say that Russia has interests, and I say yes they have. Then I say but USA have too and you say NO NO they don't, because of that I say that you see only one side of medal

Well yea...neither you or anyone else in this thread have given us a non-retarded reason WHY is USA interested. The "side of the medal" as you like to call it is a very shady and muddy part, that we can only speculate upon. I mean common, wtf is USA going to do with Moldova...lolololo. Fucking Moldova and Georgia...seriuslly? You actually believe this? Think this through. Why would a country like USA be interested in these totally poor, very distant and nonresourcehaving countries? I mean Ukraine, yeah, mybe a little bit of interest. But Moldova and Georgia, thats just a made-up "side of the medal". :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 05, 2015, 04:38:03 pm
lets just go to war so i can depopulate the russians, im tired of hearing about their medals.  maybe thats why the U.S has interests, we want russian medals for our own.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on May 05, 2015, 04:57:00 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 02:49:04 pm
You say that Russia has interests, and I say yes they have. Then I say but USA have too and you say NO NO they don't, because of that I say that you see only one side of medal

No, those guys are not saying USA hasn't got any interests, all states have their own interests.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 02:49:04 pm
Then I say but USA have too and you say NO NO they don't...

I think there was a misunderstading from the beginning or maybe you misunderstood something. As I already mentioned all states have interests but what people in this thread are trying to tell you, is that you are constantly blaming USA for everything. If Nebun couldn't eat a sandwich this morning in Moldova, it's USA fault. When people in Russian are poor, it's USA fault. When people in west are not approving Russian global policy, it's USA fault. In shortly, you have to stop blaming West and USA. China is a great example.

When England gave Hong Kong back to under Chinese control, people in China and their political leaders noticed how well Hong Kong area was developed. Laws favored Humand rights, economy in Hong Kong area was much liberal and overally living standard was higher than in China. China was a communist country (like Russia) and they were faaaaar behind Hong Kong area. So what China did? They didn't blame West, they didn't blame USA nor England. They looked around, adapted liberal economy, they opened borders for foreing companies and global trading.

Nowadays China is at totally new level where they were just like 20 years ago. Imagine how fast China developed under such a small time. There are huge amount of rich people in China, and sure there are poor ones too but overally they are doing much better. How can you tell that? For example Human Development Index (HDI) is a good indicator for that. Russia is yet ahead of China but the speed China is flying upward is amazing [1][2]. Currently, there are plenty of chinese own product even in european market. However, I can't really say any Russian TV, phone, bed, tablets, furniture, computer brands.

My main point for you Nicko is, stop blaming others (USA). You have to take resposible for your own actions. China was poor country some 20 years ago and they didn't blame anyone for their misery. Russia was communist country ~80 years and lost a lot of potiential in develop. If Russia takes new foreing policy as nationalist and military country, there are not much hope in that path and I'm afraid you will only lose more time in develop. Soon, it will be late for Russian because world keeps moving forward and no one will wait Russia. Soon, no one will need Russia. Russia will be alone with those poor satelite countries which are doing some trading for oil and gas as long as such energy forms are needed. After that, there is nothing.

Take care and I hope you got some new ideas

- Osakasa

[1] http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/RUS
[2] http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/CHN
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 05:16:55 pm
Osakasa, I absolutely agree with what you wrote. Russia have to increase a lot of things and EU standards are higher then in Russia, I numerous time wrote that. And that we need to improve our production and so on and so on.
But when I write that not only Russia is responsible for every evil, people cann't get it. China is a good example, I agree, as Singapore too and many other countries. Russia sucked for a long time. 2000000000000 dollars were stolen from Russia and went to EU and USA in 90s. So we just started to do something.
Tibe about Georgia http://www.bibliofond.ru/view.aspx?id=560060
about moldova http://www.bestreferat.ru/referat-25792.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 06:24:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 05:16:55 pm
about moldova http://www.bestreferat.ru/referat-25792.html

You ask him to read an article made for high school, written in Russian which was added almost 15 years ago with no reference to any source. Definitely propogondo.
(click to show/hide)


Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 05:16:55 pm
2000000000000 dollars were stolen from Russia and went to EU and USA in 90s. So we just started to do something.

Yeah, you started assaulting Ukraine because fuck EU and USA. Both are Ukraine: European Ukraine and Ukrainian States of America.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 06:32:19 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 06:24:06 pm
You ask him to read an article made for high school, written in Russian which was added almost 15 years ago with no reference to any source. Definitely propogondo.
(click to show/hide)


Yeah, you started assaulting Ukraine because fuck EU and USA. Both are Ukraine: European Ukraine and Ukrainian States of America.
Dave you absolutely deny the Donbass opinion and Crimenian one, that was biggest fault of your lovable government, you prefer not to speak with bydlo but kill them. That what is happening there
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 06:34:54 pm
lololololo I google translated some of it. Its the general bullshit story you hear everywhere in eastern-media. I still didnt get my awnser. WHY? All I got was USA trying to send and is interested and whatever. BUT WHY? Whats there to gain? They dont get shit from Moldova and Georgia. And quite possibly they will never get anything from Ukraine either. So why bother?

And yea, I noticed the dates aswell.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 05:16:55 pm
2000000000000 dollars were stolen from Russia and went to EU and USA in 90s. So we just started to do something.

Hahaha, yeah...sure it did. Ive read about that 20 billion. It wasnt stolen you jackass. Your economy just fucked up. Kinda like Icelands economy in 2008, when one day people woke up and realised 3 of their national banks had collapsed and they suddenly had a gigantic national dept. Countries organizing moneyheists on other countries seems a bit far fetched.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 06:44:00 pm
Im gonna doublepost here.

Also think about this Nicko. It was 90s. Very unsure times for Russia. Lots of confusion. Its more likely russians stole a lot of money from Russia and then spent it all in the West. Not to mention borders between West and East were significantly more open in the 90s than they ever were before. Which means a lot of people at once wanted to run away from the East with everything they had stolen, so that they could have even better life in the West. Really think Nicko. Berlin wall collapsed in 1989. A lot of people didnt want to live in the East, but they couldnt go to the West, many with a lot of money, many with access to a lot of money. So when the wall collapsed, all those people ran from Russia and other places.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 06:49:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 06:32:19 pm
Dave you absolutely deny the Donbass opinion and Crimenian one, that was biggest fault of your lovable government, you prefer not to speak with bydlo but kill them. That what is happening there

What is that opinion? You mean the opinion that your national channels show? If you constantly show Tovi exclusively on the news one might think that all French people are idiots.

There is also a law and Ukrainian separatists were never jailed for violating for it. Now look at Crimean Tatars. Don't you respect their opinion? Or don't you respect opinion of millions of Donbass citizens who were forced to flee to other Ukrainian regions (note: Ukrainian, not Russian), half of my city is filled with cars from Donetsk now (region on the license plate). I have friends from Donetsk who live in my city now, ask those people who supports DNR in Donetsk. Separatism is and was against the law. If you want to separate - make it not against the law, gather signs, make a referendum, change the Constitution and then make a local referendum. Yes, that's difficult but guess what? Nobody cared about that shit until green men appeared. Just shut your fucking face silver medal idiot who thinks he's the smartest person on the Earth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 05, 2015, 07:00:29 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 05, 2015, 06:34:54 pm
lololololo I google translated some of it. Its the general bullshit story you hear everywhere in eastern-media. I still didnt get my awnser. WHY? All I got was USA trying to send and is interested and whatever. BUT WHY? Whats there to gain? They dont get shit from Moldova and Georgia. And quite possibly they will never get anything from Ukraine either. So why bother?

I actually posted something some time ago about US involvement and Interest in Moldova and what it gains out of it. Written, not from Russia with love, but an American Think Tank discussing Eastern Europe following recent Russian actions.

Short of it was:
Military Base for NATO. That's only a RECENT thing though.

EDIT:
Here we go:
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21981.pdf
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 09:00:38 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 05, 2015, 07:00:29 pm
I actually posted something some time ago about US involvement and Interest in Moldova and what it gains out of it. Written, not from Russia with love, but an American Think Tank discussing Eastern Europe following recent Russian actions.

Short of it was:
Military Base for NATO. That's only a RECENT thing though.

EDIT:
Here we go:
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21981.pdf
Lets actually CHECK how much those countries mattered to the west (sorry for the affected, no offence intended):
1. Moldova - got fucked in the ass, whole world gave zero fucks, russian imported and left their "peacekeepers" there, time for their stay is over, rest of world - still zero fucks given, Moldova left fucked in the ass with a frozen conflict. Tough - but really - nobody cared. Nada.
2. Georgia - russia provoked for a LENGHTY period of time, morons on Georgian side responded with an attack, russians managed to shoot down their own plane, Georgia got fucked in the ass, two "wanabee-separatist" regions pending to join russia, rest of the world - "very worried".

Ukraine - comparatively MUCH MORE of a reaction. Sanctions and all the lost money can be counted as being indicators of important. Why? Pick your poison on your own. Again - I don't see US involved a lot, as EU is suffering the brunt of the costs... EU being a sleeping carebear... if russia managed to wake it up - its a good indicator of the scale of bullshit that putler is pulling out of his ass.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 06:32:19 pm
Dave you absolutely deny the Donbass opinion and Crimenian one, that was biggest fault of your lovable government, you prefer not to speak with bydlo but kill them. That what is happening there
Why do you deny the oppinion of Ukrainians as expressed in free and democratic parliamentary and presidential ellections? As expressed in truly rare show of national spirit during the maidan?

I can tell you why the oppinion of minority brainwashed sheeple should be ignoreddisregarded (a more apt word I'd say, ignoring is bad): because they were brainwashed by your countries media. And that media is waging war on Ukraine at the request of putler. Thats why the oppinion of minority in this case should be ignored disregarded and handled later via different ways.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 05, 2015, 09:18:53 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 09:00:38 pm
Lets actually CHECK how much those countries mattered to the west (sorry for the affected, no offence intended):
1. Moldova - got fucked in the ass, whole world gave zero fucks, russian imported and left their "peacekeepers" there, time for their stay is over, rest of world - still zero fucks given, Moldova left fucked in the ass with a frozen conflict. Tough - but really - nobody cared. Nada.
2. Georgia - russia provoked for a LENGHTY period of time, morons on Georgian side responded with an attack, russians managed to shoot down their own plane, Georgia got fucked in the ass, two "wanabee-separatist" regions pending to join russia, rest of the world - "very worried".

Did you read the Moldova article I linked?
Quote
Although a small country, Moldova has been of interest to U.S. policy makers due to its position
between NATO and EU member Romania and strategic Ukraine. In addition, some experts have
expressed concern about Russian efforts to extend its hegemony over Moldova through various
methods, including a troop presence, manipulation of Moldova’s relationship with its breakaway
Transnistria region, and energy supplies and other economic links. Moldova’s political and
economic weakness has made it a source of organized criminal activity of concern to U.S. policy
makers, including trafficking in persons. U.S. and Moldovan experts have expressed concern
about whether Russian President Putin’s annexation of Crimea and attempted destabilization of
eastern Ukraine presages a similar effort toward Moldova, including Russian recognition of the
independence of Transnistria.
First paragraph.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 09:47:49 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 05, 2015, 09:18:53 pm
Did you read the Moldova article I linked?First paragraph.
Yes, I did, and I do not deny, that there might have been reasons to care, but their weight in the end was... non existent. russia roflstomped Moldova and noone lifted a finger, thats whats sad, but real. same with Georgia...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tore on May 05, 2015, 11:20:25 pm
KOSOVO JE SRBIJA

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 06, 2015, 08:36:25 am
This is an interesting, yet realistic oppinion piece:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/04/out-of-kievs-hands/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 06, 2015, 08:55:37 am
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 05, 2015, 04:38:03 pm
lets just go to war so i can depopulate the russians, im tired of hearing about their medals.  maybe thats why the U.S has interests, we want russian medals for our own.
forum warriors gathered for war, it is something new.  :P Come at me bro, i have a medal!
Quote from: Osakasa on May 05, 2015, 04:57:00 pm
Nowadays China is at totally new level where they were just like 20 years ago. Imagine how fast China developed under such a small time. There are huge amount of rich people in China, and sure there are poor ones too but overally they are doing much better. How can you tell that? For example Human Development Index (HDI) is a good indicator for that. Russia is yet ahead of China but the speed China is flying upward is amazing [1][2]. Currently, there are plenty of chinese own product even in european market. However, I can't really say any Russian TV, phone, bed, tablets, furniture, computer brands.
Communism work, eat this capitalist motherfuckers

Quote from: Kuujis on May 05, 2015, 09:00:38 pm
Lets actually CHECK how much those countries mattered to the west (sorry for the affected, no offence intended):
1. Moldova - got fucked in the ass, whole world gave zero fucks, russian imported and left their "peacekeepers" there, time for their stay is over, rest of world - still zero fucks given, Moldova left fucked in the ass with a frozen conflict. Tough - but really - nobody cared. Nada.
after the collapse of the USSR, Transnistria was one of the largest stores of armaments and military equipment. Without peacekeepers there, the world would get there the next gang of terrorists grew out of the fighters for democracy. ^^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 06, 2015, 09:02:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 05, 2015, 05:16:55 pm
Osakasa, I absolutely agree with what you wrote. [...]
2000000000000 dollars were stolen from Russia and went to EU and USA in 90s. So we just started to do something.
[...]
This might become my favourite post yet.

Osakasa:"Stop blaming the West!"
Nicko:"I agree but West stole 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000 moneyz."

Reading comprehension: Plug-in not available. Please update your version to black-with-purple-dots diploma.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 12:05:25 pm
Lulz, I didn't that west stole this monyez, moneyz were stolen by some Russians, but anyway they went to west
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 06, 2015, 12:15:20 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 12:05:25 pm
Lulz, I didn't that west stole this monyez, moneyz were stolen by some Russians, but anyway they went to west
Thanks Obama.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 12:32:10 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 06, 2015, 12:15:20 pm
Thanks Obama.
No, the question is will the West help Russia to return this moneyz.

Quote from: DaveUKR on May 05, 2015, 06:49:26 pm
What is that opinion? You mean the opinion that your national channels show? If you constantly show Tovi exclusively on the news one might think that all French people are idiots.

There is also a law and Ukrainian separatists were never jailed for violating for it. Now look at Crimean Tatars. Don't you respect their opinion? Or don't you respect opinion of millions of Donbass citizens who were forced to flee to other Ukrainian regions (note: Ukrainian, not Russian), half of my city is filled with cars from Donetsk now (region on the license plate). I have friends from Donetsk who live in my city now, ask those people who supports DNR in Donetsk. Separatism is and was against the law. If you want to separate - make it not against the law, gather signs, make a referendum, change the Constitution and then make a local referendum. Yes, that's difficult but guess what? Nobody cared about that shit until green men appeared. Just shut your fucking face silver medal idiot who thinks he's the smartest person on the Earth.
What national chanels, I don't watch them. You can find a lot of interviews in internet, I know that about half of tatars don't agree with joining to Russia. Lol president of Tatarstan met with them and they found many interesting bonds.
Ahahaha if you want to change the government make it acording the law. Nobody cared about that before the armed illegal revolution. Then who started first? Even if you don't care about 2 may in Odessa, how can you get a point of the Donbass. It is too difficult for your brain.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 06, 2015, 12:57:15 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 12:32:10 pm
<...bukkake...> It is too difficult for your brain.
I think its too difficult for your red diploma silver medalist brain to comprehend, that agression happened via putler controlled media, which CREATED the whole conflict and the "oppinion of Donbas/Crimea people" as you so naively call it, where there only was a difference of oppinions at best. Army came afterwards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 01:05:34 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 06, 2015, 12:57:15 pm
I think its too difficult for your red diploma silver medalist brain to comprehend, that agression happened via putler controlled media, which CREATED the whole conflict and the "oppinion of Donbas/Crimea people" as you so naively call it, where there only was a difference of oppinions at best. Army came afterwards.
So you state that armed illegal revolution happened via pro-russian controlled media. Ahahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 06, 2015, 01:08:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 01:05:34 pm
So you state that armed illegal revolution happened via pro-russian controlled media. Ahahahahaha
Reading comprehension plugin not found.
Pink diploma for retarded students was used instead.
Meaning - obfuscated and lost.
Attempting at "ahahahahaha" drugs again...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 01:15:21 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 06, 2015, 01:08:23 pm
Reading comprehension plugin not found.
Pink diploma for retarded students was used instead.
Meaning - obfuscated and lost.
Attempting at "ahahahahaha" drugs again...
Ahahahahaha, don't be so rough for yourself, I know you can think logically sometimes Ahahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 06, 2015, 01:58:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 12:32:10 pm
No, the question is will the West help Russia to return this moneyz.
What national chanels, I don't watch them. You can find a lot of interviews in internet, I know that about half of tatars don't agree with joining to Russia. Lol president of Tatarstan met with them and they found many interesting bonds.
Ahahaha if you want to change the government make it acording the law. Nobody cared about that before the armed illegal revolution. Then who started first? Even if you don't care about 2 may in Odessa, how can you get a point of the Donbass. It is too difficult for your brain.

Ok. How about you just go buy a dildo and tear your ass with it? That would be much more useful than constantly posting this ultimate delirium of a braindead chimp? You're so fucked up that I even feel sorry for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 02:07:48 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 06, 2015, 01:58:07 pm
Ok. How about you just go buy a dildo and tear your ass with it? That would be much more useful than constantly posting this ultimate delirium of a braindead chimp? You're so fucked up that I even feel sorry for you.
Did your parents were in OUN-UPA. Because current Ukraine reminds me them. And you know how it will end. So you need dildo more. Or you think that revolution was peaceful and legit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 06, 2015, 03:42:57 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 02:07:48 pm
Did your parents were in OUN-UPA. Because current Ukraine according to russian media reminds me them. And youputler maybe knows how it will endhe wants it to end. So you need dildo more. <..bullshit removed...>
There, fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 06, 2015, 04:19:54 pm
I really do not understand how you can say that Dombass-stuff is a "natural" development cuz "people want it" after the interview with Putin in which he simply stated "I wanted Crimea to become Russian again and then we did it."
How is it easier to assume that the Western media makes heavy military Russian involvement in Dombass up when Putin himself openly admitted to aggressive and violent land grabbing cuz "I said so"?

There are so many really obvious indicators for Russia being the bad boy in all this compared to the far fetched and fabricated US involvement. Still, it's all about "EU/US did this/that!".
I really don't get it.
Especially the part where you keep repeating "I watch interviews with local people. They speak the truth", completely ignoring the question about who is asking those people in the streets? Who are those people being asked there? Are they actually uploading all interviews or only those which fit the wanted narrative?

You tell us to look at the two sides of the medal while you keep making the impression that you're in fact the one starring all day just at the one side, desperately trying to not even flinch at the other one.

I do not always agree with Kuujis or Dave. I obviously think Tovi is just plain dumb and delusional. But since you seem to at least try to reason at some points, I don't get you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 05:25:02 pm
Molly my point was always the same. I didn't deny involvement of Russia in this conflicts. I already agreed that Russia could send some special agents to Donbass, some troops and weapons, but also I tried to view that most of the people in Donbass who fight for DNR and LNR are ukrainians. And for me question is why EU/US supported illegal revolution in Kiev with murders. Why there is no investigation about maidan murders and Odessa one. Have you ever watched ukrainian TV? They call Donbass people bandits, separatists, terrorists or like Dave calls them Bydlo. They watch that they shell themselves everyday. This is only escalates the conflict.
And really Molly Donbass and Crimea people always wanted to have with Russia close ties. And new government was so agrresively orriented against Russia, Donbass and Crimea didn't like it.
Molly if you are German then watch  this
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/2323964/ZDF-heute-journal-vom-17-Januar-2015#/beitrag/video/2323964/ZDF-heute-journal-vom-17.-Januar-2015
from about 8 min.
Also when I say that people from Crimea who was on antimaidan in Kiev were killed and beaten before revolution, Kuujis and people like him say that this is russian propoganda. And nobody arrested. How do you think crimenians will fill after that, here video
(click to show/hide)
And there were many anti-russian actions without any judgement
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 06, 2015, 08:49:33 pm
Ukrainian media has been forced into being equally bad as Russian media. It's really an absurd situation. The media mirror each other in what they say to get their point across. They are all lying of course, causing massive confusion.

When Russian media says Ukraine burn and crucify babies, Ukrainian media cannot be honest and say: "We cannot find any reliable sources of that."  The sheer massive amount of Russian propaganda causes the Ukrainian propaganda to answer on equal terms. Still, Russian and Ukrainan people think very similarly, and have practically the same culture. (At least seen from outside.)

It's like this: When someone wages a media war on you, it doesn't work to carry on as usual. Same in the west during wwii:

(click to show/hide)

The media that care the LEAST about this conflict is the most trustable one. Nicko I see you are laughing of Washington Post, one of the best newspapers in the world. You know why? Because it's written for businessmen and politicians. Money people don't care about politics, they need facts, and that's why it's a great newspaper. Even my commie father respects and reads Washington Post. xD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 08:56:56 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 06, 2015, 08:49:33 pm
The media that care the LEAST about this conflict is the most trustable one. Nicko I see you are laughing of Washington Post, one of the best newspapers in the world. You know why? Because it's written for businessmen and politicians. Money people don't care about politics, they need facts, and that's why it's a great newspaper. Even my commie father respects and reads Washington Post. xD
Maybe washingtonpost is a good newspaper, but a text about kazakhstan is a pure propoganda, when I said about that to Melendil he is pure Kazakh, he laughed, because of that, I don't believe it. But you can if you want
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 06, 2015, 09:25:41 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 08:56:56 pm
Maybe washingtonpost is a good newspaper, but a text about kazakhstan is a pure propoganda, when I said about that to Melendil he is pure Kazakh, he laughed, because of that, I don't believe it. But you can if you want
What if Melendil reads/watches the same manipulated local news.

I'm sorry but I agree with Thomek here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 06, 2015, 09:46:32 pm
Nicko... seriously...
Can you tell us names of "many people" who were killed near Korsun?
If not - please stop saying it in every your post together with reminder that you don't buy russian propaganda.

As for comparing ukrainian and russian media - there is one major difference - in Russia media is controlled by state, so its propaganda is directed to protect interests of state, government, etc, while in Ukraine media is controlled by oligarchs, who often oppose each other, so there is more variety and no coherence compared to russian.

Anyway, it is very bad idea to consider any of them to be reliable source.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 06, 2015, 10:14:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 06, 2015, 02:07:48 pm
Did your parents were in OUN-UPA. Because current Ukraine reminds me them. And you know how it will end. So you need dildo more. Or you think that revolution was peaceful and legit

No, my grandfathers fought for Soviet Union during WWII, one of them died, one of them got wounded but managed to make it up to Berlin where he stayed after the War and the third one was a partisan. And it might be possible that they encountered OUN-UPA as enemies during that time. You're really full of shit, shame on you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on May 07, 2015, 07:38:34 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: pogosan on May 07, 2015, 08:00:56 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on May 07, 2015, 08:08:22 am
Quote from: pogosan on May 07, 2015, 08:00:56 am
I'm not really good in biology but how's it possible to have three grandpas?

DaveUKR never wrote three grandfathers. One of them died in action, one of them got wounded (=makes 2). Dave's mom's father and father's father == 2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandparent
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2B1
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 08:33:08 am
Quote from: serr on May 06, 2015, 09:46:32 pm
Nicko... seriously...
Can you tell us names of "many people" who were killed near Korsun?
If not - please stop saying it in every your post together with reminder that you don't buy russian propaganda.

As for comparing ukrainian and russian media - there is one major difference - in Russia media is controlled by state, so its propaganda is directed to protect interests of state, government, etc, while in Ukraine media is controlled by oligarchs, who often oppose each other, so there is more variety and no coherence compared to russian.

Anyway, it is very bad idea to consider any of them to be reliable source.
Well yes, I agree that there is no killed people I can find, so I think that was just russian propoganda, but anyway they were beaten. And nobody arrested. I think Odessa is better example, nobody arrested. After that many people raised against new power in Kiev.

Quote from: DaveUKR on May 06, 2015, 10:14:38 pm
No, my grandfathers fought for Soviet Union during WWII, one of them died, one of them got wounded but managed to make it up to Berlin where he stayed after the War and the third one was a partisan. And it might be possible that they encountered OUN-UPA as enemies during that time. You're really full of shit, shame on you.
I expected that, that's why I can't understand why you don't want to accept the opinion of most people in Crimea and Donbass. Why you don't care about 2 May. That is your new government who accepted OUN-UPA. That is your government gave weapon to the 16 y.o. guy who stole 30$ and killed 2 militiamen in Kiev.

Quote from: Molly on May 06, 2015, 09:25:41 pm
What if Melendil reads/watches the same manipulated local news.

I'm sorry but I agree with Thomek here.
I said you can believe it if you want, that's why I think you cann't get the Donbass and Crimea opinion
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 08:46:00 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 08:33:08 am
Well yes, I agree that there is no killed people I can find, so I think that was just russian propoganda, but anyway they were beaten. And nobody arrested. I think Odessa is better example, nobody arrested. After that many people raised against new power in Kiev.
Fucking stage 3 achieved :D (at least in ONE area :) )

Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 08:33:08 am
I said you can believe it if you want, that's why I think you cann't get the Donbass and Crimea opinion
Why can't you accept, that the "oppinion" of Donbass and Crimea was CREATED by russian state controlled media? No sane mind person would claim that it was natural or even remotely objective, yet you repeatedly do, thus giving more and more ground to calling your "red" diploma pink...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 08:52:35 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 08:46:00 am
Why can't you accept, that the "oppinion" of Donbass and Crimea was CREATED by russian state controlled media? No sane mind person would claim that it was natural or even remotely objective, yet you repeatedly do, thus giving more and more ground to calling your "red" diploma pink...
Even if their opinion is created by russian media, does it change anything? I can say that opinion of western and central Ukraine created by oligarch's media. So what?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 09:00:23 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 08:52:35 am
Even if their opinion is created by russian media, does it change anything? I can say that opinion of western and central Ukraine created by oligarch's media. So what?
Ok, lets see:
I have a kid with blank mind.
I pump that mind full of bullshit about you and how you raped and killed his mother.
That kid proceeds to kill you.
The guilty party is the kid.

Fair?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 09:17:00 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 09:00:23 am
Ok, lets see:
I have a kid with blank mind.
I pump that mind full of bullshit about you and how you raped and killed his mother.
That kid proceeds to kill you.
The guilty party is the kid.

Fair?
Of course not, but what I say that this relates to both sides not only Russia, because of that I was against joining of Crimea and against ATO. Crimea wanted to join Russia since USSR had broken, because they feel themselves as a part of Russia. And Donbass was friendly with other Ukraine, but some of them were against revolution, they stood up by the help of Russia, when ATO started more ukrainians in Donbass started to join separatists. The more Kiev shelled Donetsk and Luhansk then more people started behave aggresively against Kiev.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 09:55:05 am
Quote from: pogosan on May 07, 2015, 08:00:56 am
I'm not really good in biology but how's it possible to have three grandpas?

The one who died was my great-grandfather


Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 08:33:08 am
I said you can believe it if you want, that's why I think you cann't get the Donbass and Crimea opinion

Because there is no fucking connection between that besides in your absent brain?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 10:12:55 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 09:55:05 am
Because there is no fucking connection between that besides in your absent brain?
Dave, Dave you missed the point again  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 10:33:23 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 10:12:55 am
Dave, Dave you missed the point again  :(

I didn't miss the point. You're just trying to pull that fascist nаzi Kiev junta crap again.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 10:41:56 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 10:33:23 am
I didn't miss the point. You're just trying to pull that fascist nаzi Kiev junta crap again.
lol where, Dave, where did you see that? The question was that Molly believe washingtonpost and I believe Melendil more then Washingtonpost, where did you find fascist nаzi Kiev junta crap?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 10:47:10 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 10:41:56 am
lol where, Dave, where did you see that? The question was that Molly believe washingtonpost and I believe Melendil more then Washingtonpost, where did you find fascist nаzi Kiev junta crap?

Jeez, you're so fucking retarded. How is it even relevant? I didn't read your entire post and cut the wrong part of it finding a sentence with the same phrase that you used twice in your post (opinion of Crimea and Donbass).

You're seriously stupid, Mr. Medal.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 10:57:18 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 10:47:10 am
Jeez, you're so fucking retarded. How is it even relevant? I didn't read your entire post and cut the wrong part of it finding a sentence with the same phrase that you used twice in your post (opinion of Crimea and Donbass).

You're seriously stupid, Mr. Medal.
Seems you are lost in your fantasies, you really don't get what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 11:21:09 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 09:17:00 am
Of course not, but what I say that this relates to both sides not only Russia, because of that I was against joining of Crimea and against ATO. Crimea wanted to join Russia since USSR had broken, because they feel themselves as a part of Russia. And Donbass was friendly with other Ukraine, but some of them were against revolution, they stood up by the help of Russia, when ATO started more ukrainians in Donbass started to join separatists. The more Kiev shelled Donetsk and Luhansk then more people started behave aggresively against Kiev.
You started off well and then went all "pink diploma crap". It is normal, that not everyone in the country agrees with what is happening within it (be it during revolutions, elections or every casual day), it is however BEYOND my comprehensions, how russian media agression, which was buidling up even since the maidan started, could be considered normal or casual. How the picture that russian media painted can be even remotely considered "another side" of the coin is BEYOND me. Its like one coin side says 50, another -50, and russian media try to convince everyone that its below -9000. Thats where your "other side", that you are trying to "sell" us, comes  from and that is why we have issues with it.

Both sides did dumb shit, but only ONE side annexed part of another friendly brotherly country and only one side created war in another part of the brotherly friendly nation. There are two sides of the low intensity dissagrements between different regions of Ukraine and then there is "over 9000" side that russia created and is pushing for. You are ignoring the fact, that if not for russia - dissagreements would have been there, but there would be no fucking war, destruction, etc.

"russia" is the one inciting unrest and creating bullshit and you are defending it, because you believe that the shit russia created is real. That is simply sad.

I don't think you would find much people, who would say that all Ukraine did was awesome and without a fault. However, besides humanitarian aid and help to people (although even that was questioned by some), russia did almost everything else BAD that was done in the conflict and that was done to CREATE the conflict in the first place.

Thats why I and number of others have an issue with russia and while it stands the fuck down - will continue to have it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 11:23:31 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 28, 2015, 05:23:08 pm
For separatists hiding in civilian houses? The majority of such small villages are empty anyway, not even separatists are there.
Now that girl that launched a rocket into Shirokino was the one who killed 2 militia men in Kiev. Yes and you tried to justify her.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 11:39:10 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 11:21:09 am
Both sides did dumb shit, but only ONE side annexed part of another friendly brotherly country and only one side created war in another part of the brotherly friendly nation. There are two sides of the low intensity dissagrements between different regions of Ukraine and then there is "over 9000" side that russia created and is pushing for. You are ignoring the fact, that if not for russia - dissagreements would have been there, but there would be no fucking war, destruction, etc.
Kuujis, I understand that and agree with that, now try to understand me. If there wasn't any revolution, which were supported by the west and "кто не скачет тот москаль", there weren't any bad actions from Russia. There was a sighned agreement where Yanukovich agreed with all requirements of maidan. To avoid problems, West had to interfere this revolution, and insist on implementation of the agreement.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 12:25:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 10:57:18 am
Seems you are lost in your fantasies, you really don't get what I'm talking about.

Nobody does, that's the problem. Go get a treatment.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 11:23:31 am
Now that girl that launched a rocket into Shirokino was the one who killed 2 militia men in Kiev. Yes and you tried to justify her.

If you're such a quoteworm seeking for my messages - don't take my words out of context then. Read the next fucking page:

Quote from: Vovka on March 28, 2015, 08:56:19 pm
Just admit that she stupid bitch, and wanted to make nice video.
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 01:33:24 am
She is, it's kinda obvious. I'm also sceptical about the whole Aydar batallion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 12:27:12 pm
I read it, and your first movement was to justify her
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 12:35:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 12:27:12 pm
I read it, and your first movement was to justify her

You are an impossible idiot. I've just added you to ignore list not to see your posts any more. I wonder why I didn't do this months ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 12:39:35 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 07, 2015, 12:35:19 pm
You are an impossible idiot. I've just added you to ignore list not to see your posts any more. I wonder why I didn't do this months ago.
Sorry, Dave I just trolled you, because of your statements about Odessa and some other's like Bydlo
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 01:59:53 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 11:39:10 am
Kuujis, I understand that and agree with that, now try to understand me. If there wasn't any revolution, which were supported by the west and "кто не скачет тот москаль", there weren't any bad actions from Russia. There was a sighned agreement where Yanukovich agreed with all requirements of maidan. To avoid problems, West had to interfere this revolution, and insist on implementation of the agreement.

Why not just accept the revolution? Why would it have been so impossible for Russia to just be friends with the new government?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 02:13:05 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 01:59:53 pm
Why not just accept the revolution? Why would it have been so impossible for Russia to just be friends with the new government?
I think becuase Maidan was anti-russian. And they ignored russian interests, because of that Russia acted like an Ass somewhere. I think new government made a lot of political faults or they were forced to do that.
And why not follow the agreement that was sighned before revolution?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 02:22:34 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 11:39:10 am
Kuujis, I understand that and agree with that, now try to understand me. If there wasn't any revolution, which were supported by the west and "кто не скачет тот москаль", there weren't any bad actions from Russia. There was a sighned agreement where Yanukovich agreed with all requirements of maidan. To avoid problems, West had to interfere this revolution, and insist on implementation of the agreement.
Western support - there are pronounciations "we stand with you" and there is massive media bullshit campaign activated from russia. Thats barely comparable, and this is what was happening from the start.
Western leaders came to mediate once the crisis was already in the swing. People said - fuck the mediation, current government sucks too much... To be fair - I understand why people said so too, while you do not, but as you mentione - oppinion of the people has to be respected right?
West had NO obligations to fix anything, west tried their best to mediate and it did not work. Tough luck. However rUSSIA had an obligation as a sovereign SEPARATE nation to allow the country to solve its own problems isntead of meddling, instead, due to being butthurt - aggression was started (via media first, then via little green men) and was escalated to the levels seen today, with peaks being Ilovaisk, storming of airport and eventually completely cynical russian action in Debaltsevo even after Minsk II.

And that shit continues to this day with barely any end in sight, while russian sheeple believe they are fighting agains Ukrainian naztees...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 02:50:16 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 02:22:34 pm
Western support - there are pronounciations "we stand with you" and there is massive media bullshit campaign activated from russia. Thats barely comparable, and this is what was happening from the start.
Western leaders came to mediate once the crisis was already in the swing. People said - fuck the mediation, current government sucks too much... To be fair - I understand why people said so too, while you do not, but as you mentione - oppinion of the people has to be respected right?
West had NO obligations to fix anything, west tried their best to mediate and it did not work. Tough luck. However rUSSIA had an obligation as a sovereign SEPARATE nation to allow the country to solve its own problems isntead of meddling, instead, due to being butthurt - aggression was started (via media first, then via little green men) and was escalated to the levels seen today, with peaks being Ilovaisk, storming of airport and eventually completely cynical russian action in Debaltsevo even after Minsk II.

And that shit continues to this day with barely any end in sight, while russian sheeple believe they are fighting agains Ukrainian naztees...
Really, Kuujis, at least we have some logic in our discussion now. The last example of USA involvement in Ukraine - Kolomoysky was fired after he visited the US Ambassador and then he went to USA. ATO was started after visiting of Biden. And so on. It is not only mediation. I understand what for people stood on maidan, and Yanukovich was ashit president like Yeltsin in Russia before. And you can find in internet how maidan people were happy when Yanukovich was forced to sighn all their requirements. It could be peaceful. Many people in Crimea and Donbass were against this maidan, but everything was about peaceful. Why they made this revolution when they reached what they wanted? I think current power just used "Right Sector" to become new power. Russia used it and opened huge propoganda, I don't remember any propoganda before revolution in Russia. So... why Donbass people think that Kiev is a nazi, you can find in this video, it is not russian, ukrainian politic say about why people in Donbass are ready to be annexed by Russia, if you understand Russian, if not I will try to translate what he say later.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 07, 2015, 03:20:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 02:13:05 pm
I think becuase Maidan was anti-russian. And they ignored russian interests, because of that Russia acted like an Ass somewhere.

How dare another sovereign nation have interests that are counter to those of glorious mother Russia, totally unacceptable...

How about you forget the politics which your government has propagated to justify its land grab and accept that this pathetic conflict is unnecessarily destabilising another country and your government is actively allowing its citizens (if not being directly involved itself) to contribute to this, leading to the deaths of thousands of innocent people without bringing any benefits.  Putin's government is a fucking abomination in what should be one of the developed world leading nations, yet the Russian people seem happy to let him be and blame their problems on others, it's ludicrous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 03:38:00 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 07, 2015, 03:20:52 pm
How dare another sovereign nation have interests that are counter to those of glorious mother Russia, totally unacceptable...

How about you forget the politics which your government has propagated to justify its land grab and accept that this pathetic conflict is unnecessarily destabilising another country and your government is actively allowing its citizens (if not being directly involved itself) to contribute to this, leading to the deaths of thousands of innocent people without bringing any benefits.  Putin's government is a fucking abomination in what should be one of the developed world leading nations, yet the Russian people seem happy to let him be and blame their problems on others, it's ludicrous.
On one hand yes, if I were Ukrainian president I would visit Donbass, contact with Putin and find some solutions, I would show russian world that we are friends. Poroshenko said that he will visit Donbass and will answer all requirements of Donbass, instead of that he didn't visit Donbass but started new wave of ATO(first of all because of that many civilians were killed), used aggresive rhetoric against Russia. Really that was dumb.
Russia must be one of the leading country, but corruption is too much even now. If we would make revolution in Russia, it won't help anyhow. Because revolution in Russia never ended good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 03:53:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 03:38:00 pm
On one hand yes, if I were Ukrainian president I would visit Donbass, contact with Putin and find some solutions, I would show russian world that we are friends. Poroshenko said that he will visit Donbass and will answer all requirements of Donbass, instead of that he didn't visit Donbass but started new wave of ATO(first of all because of that many civilians were killed), used aggresive rhetoric against Russia. Really that was dumb.
Russia must be one of the leading country, but corruption is too much even now. If we would make revolution in Russia, it won't help anyhow. Because revolution in Russia never ended good.

Every country and politican on earth knows that only aggressive rhetoric works when talking with russian politicians. Everything less is an instant even bigger failure. A lot of books have been written on how to negotiate terms with Russia(or USSR). Anyone who has ever negotiated with Russia and has given in to some of its demands have always been forced to give out a lot more in the end and have always come out as devastating losers. Infront of the negotiationtable, Russia is always a hustler.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on May 07, 2015, 04:50:35 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 03:53:29 pm
Every country and politican on earth knows that only aggressive rhetoric works when talking with russian politicians. Everything less is an instant even bigger failure. A lot of books have been written on how to negotiate terms with Russia(or USSR). Anyone who has ever negotiated with Russia and has given in to some of its demands have always been forced to give out a lot more in the end and have always come out as devastating losers. Infront of the negotiationtable, Russia is always a hustler.

So what you're saying is, Russia is a bunch of jews?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 07, 2015, 04:52:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 02:50:16 pm
Really, Kuujis, at least we have some logic in our discussion now. The last example of USA involvement in Ukraine - Kolomoysky was fired after he visited the US Ambassador and then he went to USA. ATO was started after visiting of Biden. And so on. It is not only mediation.
We can agree to disagree if you want to, but this is wishful thinking and attempts at seeing relations where there might have been only coincidences. WHOLE of the west suffered from what was called by some "Ukraine weariness", because Yanu was wearing down on everyones nerves and nothing ever got actually done. In the end - people of Ukraine got pissed off when the agreement was not signed, not the west.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 02:50:16 pm
I understand what for people stood on maidan, and Yanukovich was ashit president like Yeltsin in Russia before. And you can find in internet how maidan people were happy when Yanukovich was forced to sighn all their requirements. It could be peaceful. Many people in Crimea and Donbass were against this maidan, but everything was about peaceful. Why they made this revolution when they reached what they wanted? I think current power just used "Right Sector" to become new power. Russia used it and opened huge propoganda, I don't remember any propoganda before revolution in Russia.
Sincerely - HEAVY anti-maidan reporting in russian media started WAY before the whole culmination happened. So thats first.
Second - I think a lot of people simply did not want to wait for half a year until their lying thieving president finished stealing what he could and dump all the loose threads into deepest lakes. Its a very simple, yet very understandable explanation. Denying it would take some serious proofs IMO.
Third - while Right Sector WAS there - their participation and impact was overblown by none other than russian media. Elections afterwards were very illustrative on that. And someone using them? Either proove it or keep it to yourself. It sounds too much like tin-foil-hat stuff.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 02:50:16 pm
So... why Donbass people think that Kiev is a nazi, you can find in this video, it is not russian, ukrainian politic say about why people in Donbass are ready to be annexed by Russia, if you understand Russian, if not I will try to translate what he say later.
(click to show/hide)
I'm sorry, but judging by date its WAY past the crap-lagoon, which was fabricated by russian media, so the "beliefs" of people in those regions were a victory of aggressive russian hybrid war, waged via media first, backed by real military power second. Reporting on those beliefs as being reasonable or objective would be giving russian media the same credit and I would suggest you do neither.

Better question to you: why russia should be waging hybrid war (meaning -media + deniable troops + immitations of local insurgents) on a friendly nation?

Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 03:38:00 pm
On one hand yes, if I were Ukrainian president I would visit Donbass, contact with Putin and find some solutions, I would show russian world that we are friends.
So.. if Poland annexed Konigsberg (or Germany) and then began thinking about returning former Finland lands (pre-WW2) back to the "legitimate family of European Nations", started creating insurgency there, massive media attacks and propaganda bullshit... you being putler... you would visit those former Finland areas, forget about Kaliningrad, and talk about solutions? You really see that happening?

Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 03:38:00 pm
Poroshenko said that he will visit Donbass and will answer all requirements of Donbass, instead of that he didn't visit Donbass but started new wave of ATO(first of all because of that many civilians were killed), used aggresive rhetoric against Russia. Really that was dumb.
Russia must be one of the leading country, but corruption is too much even now. If we would make revolution in Russia, it won't help anyhow.
Sorry, thats your media talking again. I don't see president visiting a war zone being a successful move.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 03:38:00 pm
Because revolution in Russia never ended good.
I beg to dissagree. After your last crash - I got to choose where my future is: in russias "friends" list or Europe/NATO. I consider that a good end. Sadly - you and your compatriots chose something else and are now angry at others, who start to rethink their "friends" and previous choices.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 05:09:10 pm
Quote from: Siiem on May 07, 2015, 04:50:35 pm
So what you're saying is, Russia is a bunch of jews?

If a bunch of stealing gypsies decided to make a country it would be something similar to Russia. Jews? Nah, jews are good with money and generally sober, while ruskies arent.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 07, 2015, 05:15:44 pm
No, the great tragedy of Russia is that they are smart people that can get shit done, nowadays too busy stealing from each other. Basically, they've had horrible rulers. Some aspects of Putin are great for Russia, but others like the Ukraine politics is heading straight down disaster lane.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 07, 2015, 06:00:54 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 03:38:00 pm
On one hand yes, if I were Ukrainian president I would visit Donbass, contact with Putin and find some solutions, I would show russian world that we are friends. Poroshenko said that he will visit Donbass and will answer all requirements of Donbass, instead of that he didn't visit Donbass but started new wave of ATO(first of all because of that many civilians were killed), used aggresive rhetoric against Russia. Really that was dumb.
Russia must be one of the leading country, but corruption is too much even now. If we would make revolution in Russia, it won't help anyhow. Because revolution in Russia never ended good.

Aggressive rhetoric is one thing, supporting armed rebels in another state is a whole different thing all together.  You cannot attempt to make Russia the victim here, that is absolutely disgraceful.  Communication of course would be beneficial; but this is impossible if Russia continues to openly lie about it's involvement in the conflict and remains unwilling to accept the sovereignty of the new Ukrainian government.

With regards to revolution i don't think that is even remotely necessary, simply a return to the direction Russia had been moving in before Putin started aggressively following greater Russia expansionism.

It's all a very sad situation and something that should never have been allowed to go on this long.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 06:08:26 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 07, 2015, 06:00:54 pm
Aggressive rhetoric is one thing, supporting armed rebels in another state is a whole different thing all together....

"Yea, but USA does it too in the Middle-East, so thereby it should totally be ignored. You hypocrite!" - Every russian nationalist ever.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on May 07, 2015, 06:50:58 pm
Quote from: Paul on May 07, 2015, 07:38:34 am
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 07, 2015, 07:04:57 pm
That is a painfully accurate polandball, followed by a painfully accurate family guy excerpt.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 07, 2015, 08:11:30 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 07, 2015, 05:15:44 pm
No, the great tragedy of Russia is that they are smart people that can get shit done

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I guess if shouting "IDJOT!!!!!!!! CYKA!!!! IDJOT!!!!!!!" makes you smart, they're the very smartest. Otherwise, no, in any large gaming community with tons of nationalities, no one wants to play with Russians. For a reason.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 08:33:35 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 07, 2015, 08:11:30 pm
I guess if shouting "IDJOT!!!!!!!! CYKA!!!! IDJOT!!!!!!!" makes you smart, they're the very smartest. Otherwise, no, in any large gaming community with tons of nationalities, no one wants to play with Russians. For a reason.


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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 07, 2015, 08:41:00 pm
Well, shit went pretty much downhill continuously after 1881.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 07, 2015, 08:45:48 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 08:33:35 pm

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Krex on May 07, 2015, 08:49:53 pm
Can anyone give me a "short" summary of this thread?xD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 07, 2015, 08:54:24 pm
Might actually happen one day. Russias stance on internet is anything but liberal. Their own government might ban their asses, claiming something retarded like spending money on Steam is stealing russian money and giving it to the americans and owning a steam library is treason.  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 07, 2015, 08:55:14 pm
Quote from: Krex on May 07, 2015, 08:49:53 pm
Can anyone give me a "short" summary of this thread?xD

History is not ending just yet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 07, 2015, 11:44:24 pm
https://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftass.ru%2Fmezhdunarodnaya-panorama%2F1955296

time to get our lands back!

Anonymous
05/07/15(Thu)17:12:39 No.41378205
Anonymous 05/07/15(Thu)17:12:39 No.41378205

    How many Russians really want Alaska back?

>>
Anonymous
05/07/15(Thu)17:14:05 No.41378290
Anonymous 05/07/15(Thu)17:14:05 No.41378290

    >>41378205
    Very much we are willing to fight to the death for the return of our territories

  :lol:
 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 08, 2015, 12:40:14 am
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Finland in 2020, it's happening.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on May 08, 2015, 12:48:50 am
Quote from: Krex on May 07, 2015, 08:49:53 pm
Can anyone give me a "short" summary of this thread?xD

Remember, Russia din do nuffin'!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 08, 2015, 12:54:56 am
Quote from: Xant on May 08, 2015, 12:40:14 am
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Finland in 2020, it's happening.


(click to show/hide)
Finland 2020! Let's do it!!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 08, 2015, 09:37:32 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 08, 2015, 12:54:56 am
Finland 2020! Let's do it!!
(click to show/hide)

did they all manage to get silver medals and red diplomas in Russia?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 08, 2015, 11:44:28 am
Hahaha. A rather unrelated case. In my town some streetartists had made some drawings of our 2 presidents under a bridge. Than one night some dude came and painted Putin over one president. Was there like a week than the town authorities had painted it over. :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 09, 2015, 04:04:06 am
Links between CIA and Ukrainians nazees is a long story.

Operation Nightingale : http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/america-backed-fascists-ukraine-73-years-ago.html

Note that Bandera, OUN etc. are now officialy national heroes of Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 09, 2015, 04:48:26 am
tovi you realise everyone thinks you are an idiot by now, it's not worth posting for you bud.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 09, 2015, 06:37:25 am
Quote from: Xant on May 08, 2015, 12:40:14 am
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looks like a donkey, maybe its a sign that chadz is supporting rebels in Finland!

stronk is this propogation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 09, 2015, 10:30:54 am
Quote from: Tovi on May 09, 2015, 04:04:06 am
Links between CIA and Ukrainians nazees is a long story.

Operation Nightingale : http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/america-backed-fascists-ukraine-73-years-ago.html

Note that Bandera, OUN etc. are now officialy national heroes of Ukraine.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 09, 2015, 11:03:57 am
These anti-west pages are absolutely dreadful to read and the commentsections are even worse. :lol: Tovi go write there, atleast you can be with your own kind, where everyone will upvote you for speaking the truths.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on May 09, 2015, 11:22:32 am


lmao
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 09, 2015, 05:29:03 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 06:25:04 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 09, 2015, 07:15:56 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 06:25:04 pm


 :lol:

The excuse they gave for it, "Er, uh, it was.. all a part of the exercise, uh. Yes, certainly" is the most hilarious part about it. So very North Korean and Soviet Union. Any western country would have just said "Yeah, malfunction, shit happens."
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 09, 2015, 07:49:07 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 09, 2015, 07:15:56 pm


 :lol:

The excuse they gave for it, "Er, uh, it was.. all a part of the exercise, uh. Yes, certainly" is the most hilarious part about it. So very North Korean and Soviet Union. Any western country would have just said "Yeah, malfunction, shit happens."

Most western countries don't tend to do full military parades either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 09, 2015, 08:05:00 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 09, 2015, 07:49:07 pm
Most western countries don't tend to do full military parades either.

Which is probably a good thing. Full military parades are for the fragile countries who are desperate to show the full power of their cock to everyone to seem relevant.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 08:13:02 pm
for the Russian people is a tribute to the tradition, for the army it is good training and for the military industry exhibition of new products
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 09, 2015, 08:27:30 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 08:13:02 pm
for the Russian people is a tribute to the tradition, for the army it is good training and for the military industry exhibition of new products
Commercial show for a shit-country, which wants to monopolize victory over naztees... Good to know we are both calling things their true name  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 09, 2015, 08:28:30 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 08:13:02 pm
for the Russian people is a tribute to the tradition, for the army it is good training and for the military industry exhibition of new products

Russian people should stop living in the past, desperately trying to live out the glory days, that well, were hardly actually glorious and long time ago.
Spending time actually training would have been better training.
The fact that beound oil, gas and military your country has absolutely no other means of reasonable profit or nothing else to show at all, is just sad. If your people are truly desperately in need of "tradition" via military parades, than my friend, you are hardly in the modern times. You wanna know how normal people in normal countries react to military showoffs? With a simple "meh".

Like I said, weak, fragile countries.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 09, 2015, 09:47:02 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 08:13:02 pm
for the Russian people is a tribute to the tradition, for the army it is good training and for the military industry exhibition of new products
Good training? Wtf? Have you actually been in a parade as a soldier? What is it good training for? Waiting and standing?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 11:55:57 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 09, 2015, 09:47:02 pm
Good training? Wtf? Have you actually been in a parade as a soldier? What is it good training for? Waiting and standing?
yes i was and?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2015, 01:44:33 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 09, 2015, 11:55:57 pm
yes i was and?
So you don't understand English?

Maybe if I use a bigger font.

What is it good training for?

Not only is the parade itself not "good training" in any way or form, it's awful even before the parade itself for training. Because Russia thinks parades are so important, it wants them to go super smoothly. To get everything to go that smooth and have everyone step in unison and do everything else perfectly, you need to drill them a lot. That's a lot of time spent doing nothing but drilling for a parade while real soldiers are training for combat. But then Russia's never been exactly known for quality troops, so I guess there's that. No need to spend money on ammunition or throwing shovels when you can just have your soldiers drill.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 10, 2015, 02:09:37 am
The parade was pretty cool in all fairness, better than the shitty show we had here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2015, 02:16:35 am
Quote from: Casimir on May 10, 2015, 02:09:37 am
The parade was pretty cool in all fairness, better than the shitty show we had here.
Yes, Russian parades are good. Which translates to a ton of wasted money and training time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 10, 2015, 02:45:28 am
Quote from: Xant on May 10, 2015, 01:44:33 am
So you don't understand English?

Maybe if I use a bigger font.

What is it good training for?

Not only is the parade itself not "good training" in any way or form, it's awful even before the parade itself for training. Because Russia thinks parades are so important, it wants them to go super smoothly. To get everything to go that smooth and have everyone step in unison and do everything else perfectly, you need to drill them a lot. That's a lot of time spent doing nothing but drilling for a parade while real soldiers are training for combat. But then Russia's never been exactly known for quality troops, so I guess there's that. No need to spend money on ammunition or throwing shovels when you can just have your soldiers drill.
Have you actually been in a parade as a soldier?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2015, 02:55:19 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 10, 2015, 02:45:28 am
Have you actually been in a parade as a soldier?
Have you ever wanted to sell flowers?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 10, 2015, 04:24:59 am
Quote from: Casimir on May 10, 2015, 02:09:37 am
The parade was pretty cool in all fairness, better than the shitty show we had here.

yeah, it was quite nice, but i have to admit that the north korean ones are a bit more impressive.

with regard to the training, in east germanyland we hold parades in schools every year. that was part of the pre-military training (aka civil defense in case of an attack of the imperialists ... haha).
anyway, before every parade they have drilled us a month so that we knew the commands and got the movements right.
without such drill it looks like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRzPg7vh7_4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRzPg7vh7_4)


pr-wise the viktory day approach of the ukraine is quite interesting.
you get the whole remembrance package without the chest beating stuff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 10, 2015, 08:34:31 am

:D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: WarLord on May 10, 2015, 08:43:37 am
 :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 10, 2015, 09:22:28 am
Quote from: Christo on May 10, 2015, 08:34:31 am

:D

God the symbolism..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 10, 2015, 10:35:18 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 10, 2015, 02:45:28 am
Have you actually been in a parade as a soldier?

I was, nothing that can be described as "good for training". You don't achieve any skills that you can possibly use in an actual fight or anything even close to it. It's only good for training if you're going to work in a theatre afterwards. Don't spread bullshit.

Edit: I forgot that it's Russian army. Well in that case they might see a weapon or a drive a vehicle for the very first and only time during their service time. How many bullets did you shoot while serving that year in the army? 6?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 10, 2015, 01:15:51 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2015, 10:35:18 am
I was, nothing that can be described as "good for training". You don't achieve any skills that you can possibly use in an actual fight or anything even close to it. It's only good for training if you're going to work in a theatre afterwards. Don't spread bullshit.

Edit: I forgot that it's Russian army. Well in that case they might see a weapon or a drive a vehicle for the very first and only time during their service time. How many bullets did you shoot while serving that year in the army? 6?
lol Dave you are so stupid, it is a Great Victory Day. I think every family in Russia has people who were killed in the WW2. And you blame them, shame on you. Seems you government is ashamed about this victory, you too?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 10, 2015, 02:05:46 pm
Yes, and so do families outside of Russia, that commemorated the end of WW2 on May 8th. My family has people that were killed in WW2 as well. By Soviets.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 10, 2015, 02:30:59 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2015, 10:35:18 am
I was, nothing that can be described as "good for training". You don't achieve any skills that you can possibly use in an actual fight or anything even close to it. It's only good for training if you're going to work in a theatre afterwards. Don't spread bullshit.
Edit: I forgot that it's Russian army. Well in that case they might see a weapon or a drive a vehicle for the very first and only time during their service time. How many bullets did you shoot while serving that year in the army? 6?
after 2-3 months of training for 2-5 hours per day on the groundz, you can snack steel wire by buttocks. Our fatty officers lost 5 to 15 kilograms during these workouts, it was a parade of regional scale.

driver spends day and night time in the garage, that would be their old ZIL not caught fire during the parade)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2015, 02:40:53 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 10, 2015, 02:30:59 pm
after 2-3 months of training for 2-5 hours per day on the groundz, you can snack steel wire buttocks. Our fatty officers lost 5 to 15 kilograms during these workouts, it was a parade of regional scale.

driver spends day and night time in the garage, that would be their old ZIL not caught fire during the parade)
So, in other words, you waste 3 months on crap that has nothing to do with combat. Excellent training. Hell, maybe it is, by Russian standards.

Quote from: DaveUKR on May 10, 2015, 10:35:18 am

Edit: I forgot that it's Russian army. Well in that case they might see a weapon or a drive a vehicle for the very first and only time during their service time. How many bullets did you shoot while serving that year in the army? 6?
I've heard this from Russian conscripts as well. Shooting something like 5 bullets during their entire service. Great training! Superb quality troops!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 10, 2015, 02:56:40 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 10, 2015, 02:40:53 pm
you waste 3 months on crap



Total Time Spent Online:
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Tell us more about spending time on crap, your opinion is very important to us.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2015, 03:00:05 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 10, 2015, 02:56:40 pm


Total Time Spent Online:
    85 days, 13 hours and 23 minutes.
Total Posts:
    8436 posts
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    47 topics
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Tell us more about spending time on crap, your opinion is very important to us.
Wow, what a comeback! I had no idea I was claiming cRPG forums were good training.

You trying to ad hominem your way out of this will sadly not work. You spoke bullshit, you were called on it. As always.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 10, 2015, 11:00:21 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 10, 2015, 03:00:05 pm
Wow, what a comeback! I had no idea I was claiming cRPG forums were good training.

You trying to ad hominem your way out of this will sadly not work. You spoke bullshit, you were called on it. As always.

maybe u so upset because u grandfather fought on the other side in ww2?
well i guess its good my grandfather is not alive to read stupid shit from people like u, or know that u even exist
if u'd live in a country where 20 mil of PEACEFUL population and 6.3 mil military died in ww2, then maybe you would understand why parade is so important to people in Russia u stupid fuck
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 10, 2015, 11:43:52 pm
peaceful is a relative term.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2015, 11:46:59 pm
He meant civilians. What this thread now needs is opinion of some Latvian, Fin or German to counter Russian view with a heartbreaking story of their nation suffering.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 11, 2015, 12:15:16 am
Quote from: Leshma on May 10, 2015, 11:46:59 pm
He meant civilians. What this thread now needs is opinion of some Latvian, Fin or German to counter Russian view with a heartbreaking story of their nation suffering.
Oh common Latvian and Fins dont have opinions, they simply execute commands those who hits harder  :P
 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 12:22:22 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 10, 2015, 11:00:21 pm
maybe u so upset because u grandfather fought on the other side in ww2?
well i guess its good my grandfather is not alive to read stupid shit from people like u, or know that u even exist
if u'd live in a country where 20 mil of PEACEFUL population and 6.3 mil military died in ww2, then maybe you would understand why parade is so important to people in Russia u stupid fuck
Poor Soviet Union with its dead people. Much sympathy. Such sadness.

Oh wait, they were an aggressor. Who the fuck cares?

PS maybe less people would have died if the Soviets spent more time training how to fight and less time parading
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 05:46:04 am
Chinese people about Russia and Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=297&v=al8ZVD5KDdg

RESPECT to veterans: Russia vs. USA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 07:50:07 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 10, 2015, 11:00:21 pm
maybe u so upset because u grandfather fought on the other side in ww2?
well i guess its good my grandfather is not alive to read stupid shit from people like u, or know that u even exist
if u'd live in a country where 20 mil of PEACEFUL population and 6.3 mil military died in ww2, then maybe you would understand why parade is so important to people in Russia u stupid fuck

Do not forget its a victory for everyone, not only Russia. France, UK, Poland etc suffered massively aswell. And they dont make such a big deal of this. And also lets not forget, that after WW2 was over, Russia did not give back lands it "liberated" freely. Technically you didnt "liberate" shit, you just invaded and occupied that which was already occupied by the na zis. Its quite amazing how you feel no shame at all and tell us to pay respects. Soviet crimes were very serius m8. The only reason you act like its not a big deal, was because the na zis were worse. Massmurdering is still massmurdering. People in Eastern-Europe are still digging up massgraves of soviet victims btw. Entire villages were massacred by the Red army for nothing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 11, 2015, 08:23:46 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 05:46:04 am
Chinese people about Russia and Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=297&v=al8ZVD5KDdg

...

uh oh, now i would be a bit worried.
https://youtu.be/al8ZVD5KDdg?t=3m38s (https://youtu.be/al8ZVD5KDdg?t=3m38s)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 08:56:34 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 10, 2015, 11:00:21 pm
maybe u so upset because u grandfather fought on the other side in ww2?
well i guess its good my grandfather is not alive to read stupid shit from people like u, or know that u even exist
if u'd live in a country where 20 mil of PEACEFUL population and 6.3 mil military died in ww2, then maybe you would understand why parade is so important to people in Russia u stupid fuck
Oh yeah... being one of the aggressors in WWII is definitely important to remember!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2015, 09:19:02 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 10, 2015, 11:00:21 pm
maybe u so upset because u grandfather fought on the other side in ww2?
well i guess its good my grandfather is not alive to read stupid shit from people like u, or know that u even exist
if u'd live in a country where 20 mil of PEACEFUL population and 6.3 mil military died in ww2, then maybe you would understand why parade is so important to people in Russia u stupid fuck

maybe if you guys trained for actual war and not parades you would lose less

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 09:28:31 am
According to Ivan, Soviet Union was there to save Finland and Finland misunderstood. Russian history fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 11, 2015, 09:45:50 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 09:28:31 am
According to Ivan, Soviet Union was there to save Finland and Finland misunderstood. Russian history fact.

Don't you respect opinion of soviets towards fins? Don't you care about them??? I've got silver medal and red diploma, it was their opinion to invade Finland!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 11, 2015, 09:51:57 am
Russia was/has been/is always the victim.

That's the insight I take away from this thread... Poor, poor Russia :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2015, 10:02:29 am
Another russian invasion  :mrgreen:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/gqYTaKfMlbU[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqYTaKfMlbU#t=62
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 10:26:57 am
Respect the soldiers and the empire that held a lot of Europes nations hostage for over 60 years and was partially responsible for holding the world in fear of nuclear annihilation. Personally I wouldnt even give a crap, it was long time ago, but when you come here demanding for respect and idolizing it, i cant help but to tell you to fuck off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 10:34:03 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 10:26:57 am
Respect the soldiers and the empire that held a lot of Europes nations hostage for over 60 years and was partially responsible for holding the world in fear of nuclear annihilation. Personally I wouldnt even give a crap, it was long time ago, but when you come here demanding for respect and idolizing it, i cant help but to tell you to fuck off.
I respect veterans who fought against Faschism. And I say you to fuck off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:38:25 am
unlike u everyone here knows about Finland being invaded and Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, multiple times it was said as being big mistakes and also splitting influence over countries with BRITISH and US government over europe after war was over. Trying to put ur ideology over other countries is a bad thing. Its same as british empire taking over 1/3 of whole land mass in its best times.

This holiday and parade is about beating fascism and freeing land from fascism. Celebrating, remembering and paying tribute to our vets.
If u'd listen speech you would know that president congratulated all allies as well.

And if u consider loses: UK or US lost 60 times less ppl then soviets!
2nd front in France was opened after breaking point in war when soviets was pushing chocolate chip cookie back
the was was not in ur land, UK was bombed yes, but in USSR civilians was slaughtered and starved to death, so feelings about this war is a bit different

and when i lived in britain ppl i talked to think they and US won this war on their own, oh and maybe with just little help of soviet union.
yes Captain America did that :)))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 10:46:51 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 10:34:03 am
I respect veterans who fought against Faschism. And I say you to fuck off.

Also veterans who fought against fa scism by being as bad as fas cists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:57:30 am
what a stupid idiot u are :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2015, 11:08:32 am
Piss off history denying, lying, rapist worshipping russkie scum  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 11:29:34 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:57:30 am
what a stupid idiot u are :)

Right back at you, fellow idiot. I dont praise massmurderers, occupators and massrapists just because they fought the evil nazis. Its great Soviet Union won the fascists(them having a major role in stopping Hit ler is undeniable). How they did it and what they did after that is unforgivable. But like a moron you totally turn a blind eye to it and ignore like 90% of the horrors they commited and the undeniable evindence that proves all of it, just because "nazis were more evil".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 11, 2015, 11:34:10 am
I think it's important to have an ice cool perspective on ww2.

Look at the numbers, look at numbers relative to population, look at aggressors, look at the amount of "freedom" that was won in the aftermath.

There's no doubt that both russian and western perspectives are twisted in their own favour, but if you are willing to read up on things all the information is there. For example, the brunt of the war took place in Eastern Europe, there's just no denying that. What the western powers did was peanuts in comparison to the horror and sacrifices on the eastern front. One can even see the opening of the western front almost as mopping up to make sure the red army didn't "liberate" all of Europe, since the german forces were already on the retreat by that point.

(Churchill suggested to beat the red army with nukes after the war was over..)

Anyway, as history shows, the "liberation" provided by the red army in most countries  turned out to be less of a liberation, and more like a new kind of occupation.  :rolleyes:

What's more interesting though, is how the 2nd world war is used today for propaganda purposes. There's no doubt the russian narrative is still one of the least modern perspectives. And not very balanced or complete. Little has changed..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 12:04:11 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 07:50:07 am
Do not forget its a victory for everyone, not only Russia. France, UK, Poland etc suffered massively aswell. And they dont make such a big deal of this. And also lets not forget, that after WW2 was over, Russia did not give back lands it "liberated" freely. Technically you didnt "liberate" shit, you just invaded and occupied that which was already occupied by the na zis. Its quite amazing how you feel no shame at all and tell us to pay respects. Soviet crimes were very serius m8. The only reason you act like its not a big deal, was because the na zis were worse. Massmurdering is still massmurdering. People in Eastern-Europe are still digging up massgraves of soviet victims btw. Entire villages were massacred by the Red army for nothing.
Pretty sure na zis were no worse than soviets. If anything the latter killed more civilians
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 12:48:42 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:38:25 am
and when i lived in britain ppl i talked to think they and US won this war on their own, oh and maybe with just little help of soviet union.
yes Captain America did that :)))

I hope this is a joke or else you spoke to idiots because part of our school history curriculum covers WW2 inc. the soviet involvement and everyday on freeview tv there are many documentaries for the war showing all aspects, from africa to indo-china as well as russian campaigns.  I have not met a single educated adult who does not know about the eastern front or about the horrendous suffering inflicted on the peoples of that area by facist & soviet alike.

Here in the UK we also have sevices for vetrans from across the british empire who gave their lives on 4 continents.   We commemorate it as a world war fought by people across the world; not as our victory but as that of humanities. Lets not forget after that horrible war we gave up Imperial petensions, set up home rule and parliaments across the world. Meanwhile  the Stalinist government established a new regime of terror and oppression across previously independent states.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 11, 2015, 01:30:45 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 05:46:04 am
Chinese people about Russia and Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=297&v=al8ZVD5KDdg

RESPECT to veterans: Russia vs. USA
Yes, Russia respects its veterans a lot. By exploiting their sacrifices for political good, whilst not even providing basic maintenance to veteran cemeteries abroad. Such respect, wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 11, 2015, 01:40:45 pm
We almost came to a point where chocolate chip cookie weren't German soldiers who fought under einstein's command. On the internet, chocolate chip cookie are people you hate, because they did something wrong to your nation. Dozen generations shall pass and this popular opinion will be set in stone.

Which leads to conclusion, if you win in particularly nasty war make sure you wipe out remaining opposition to the last man if you are in position to do so (Turks vs Armenia, American settlers vs natives are examples of success, Third Reich have almost succeed).

Unfortunately for Russians, USA stopped them in their plans and now their children have to witness enemy children changing history in their favor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 01:48:54 pm
any of u have grandfathers who fought in ww2 against chocolate chip cookies? did u ever talk to them and listened to their opinion?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 11, 2015, 01:56:45 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 01:48:54 pm
any of u have grandfathers who fought in ww2 against chocolate chip cookies? did u ever talk to them and listened to their opinion?
I lack to see the connection between historical facts and the opinion of your granddad...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 11, 2015, 02:14:13 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 01:48:54 pm
any of u have grandfathers who fought in ww2 against chocolate chip cookies? did u ever talk to them and listened to their opinion?

Yeah, one of them said that Nebun is an idiot. I wonder how you managed to communicate in UK, maybe people simply didn't understand you and then you summarized the wrong info.

- who win war america, yes?
- Yes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:18:54 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 11, 2015, 01:40:45 pm
We almost came to a point where chocolate chip cookie weren't German soldiers who fought under einstein's command. On the internet, chocolate chip cookie are people you hate, because they did something wrong to your nation. Dozen generations shall pass and this popular opinion will be set in stone.

Which leads to conclusion, if you win in particularly nasty war make sure you wipe out remaining opposition to the last man if you are in position to do so (Turks vs Armenia, American settlers vs natives are examples of success, Third Reich have almost succeed).

Unfortunately for Russians, USA stopped them in their plans and now their children have to witness enemy children changing history in their favor.

lol again heroes USA stopped Soviets from wiping population in all EU, by getting involved they just took control of part of europe when it was divided, what was stopping soviets of wiping population in new countries under its control? maybe the fact they never planned to do so?
i personally dislike communism, and leaders was very harsh, and if u think stalin was bad only to poor occupied countries then u wrong, he was also bad to its own people, i think even more, too harsh for me, but maybe more normal for those times(if u read about how russian revolution went). He did kill a lot of ppl within whole soviet union, but nothing to compare to chocolate chip cookieS and had no plans of wiping population of other countries. Ideology and strategy of communism was to spread as much as it could everywhere, and they took this opportunity, which was a mistake.

Funny thing is that there is a lot of countries / ex empires that've done way worse or similar things and nobody hates them. Like Germany for example, i don't see u all hating it for einstein, or france for napoleon, italy for mussolini and roman empire, USA for natives and constant wars, british for empire :)) But u all together hate russians now, or just dislike.
For the most part russians doesn't hate germans or other countries that ever invaded it, most of them just gets surprised/upset when due recent events they find out about such shit opinions about them from EU.

My view on this is that u change ur opinions depending on politics as little whores, if Russia would be ur allies in modern world u would probably defend it on forums and spray ur shit at opposition. By the look of recent events, tables may turn and EU politics towards russia and china will change.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 11, 2015, 02:21:35 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:18:54 pm
i personally dislike communism, and leaders was very harsh, and if u think stalin was bad only to poor occupied countries then u wrong, he was also bad to its own people, i think even more, too harsh for me, but maybe more normal for those times(if u read about how russian revolution went). He did kill a lot of ppl within whole soviet union, but nothing to compare to chocolate chip cookieS and had no plans of wiping population of other countries.

Here we go again. Stalin was a mass murdering bitch but he wasn't as bad as Hitlеr => praise Stalin!))))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:22:12 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2015, 01:56:45 pm
I lack to see the connection between historical facts and the opinion of your granddad...

what country are u from?
connection is in their opinion of it, if it was good what soviets done or bad?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 11, 2015, 02:25:03 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:22:12 pm
what country are u from?
connection is in their opinion of it, if it was good what soviets done or bad?
His opinion does not matter cuz... well... it's just his opinion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 02:26:59 pm
The reason no one blames Germany for its past is that current germany has nothing to do with na zi germany. Whereas Russia is heading back to its roots as SU
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2015, 02:27:10 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:18:54 pm
Funny thing is that there is a lot of countries / ex empires that've done way worse or similar things and nobody hates them. Like Germany for example, i don't see u all hating it for einstein, or france for napoleon, italy for mussolini and roman empire, USA for natives and constant wars, british for empire :)) But u all together hate russians now, or just dislike.

That's because most (reasonable) people hate for present, not past, you fool. Germany is well aware of what they've done in WW2 and have in fact even banned neo nasees and people praising the Reich and such, from what I've heard. You don't see them making parades with tanks and shit and cheering for their accomplishments in WW2, unlike Russia, huh? And why the fuck would we hate ANY country for Einstein?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 02:29:01 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 12:48:42 pm
Lets not forget after that horrible war we gave up Imperial petensions, set up home rule and parliaments across the world. Meanwhile  the Stalinist government established a new regime of terror and oppression across previously independent states.
The question why you gave up? Becuase of humanity or because you didn't have enough strength to hold that territories.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 11, 2015, 02:31:51 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 02:29:01 pm
The question why you gave up? Becuase of humanity or because you didn't have enough strength tp hold that territories.
Which is an completely irrelevant question too! :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 02:33:10 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 01:48:54 pm
any of u have grandfathers who fought in ww2 against chocolate chip cookies? did u ever talk to them and listened to their opinion?

My Great grandfather fought in both world wars, serving in the Royal Navy, he died while i was young but I've heard most of his stories from my mother and grand father. My other Grandfather passed away recently but he served with the Royal Air Force, he always told me they did what they did because they had to. It fell to them to fight against tyranny, to ensure that his generation had its right to choose how it lived it's life. It was always his opinion that the soviets were not to be trusted, which amused me as he was a die hard Labour party member, then again he saw the world he fought to save being threatened with annihilation for most of his life.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:33:55 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 11, 2015, 02:21:35 pm
Here we go again. Stalin was a mass murdering bitch but he wasn't as bad as Hitlеr => praise Stalin!))))))))

who said anything about praising stalin? u think parade is for him?
but u shouldn't make him equal to einstein. its like comparing 1 destroyed building with destroyed town. Lesser evil.
And if u read about views of fascism and their plans on others then soviets would be decimated and then whoever survives would just be slaves. All jews would die, coloured too either slaves or dead. Good prospectives for the world.
Soviet ideology was to make everyone as equal as possible, but poorly executed in most cases. Most aggressive potestants was killed or sent to prison bad i agree. But with einstein they didn't even have time to say "I protest" before they die.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2015, 02:36:12 pm
Rofl, honestly, what's with you and einstein? Are you refering to atom bomb or something?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:40:09 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2015, 02:26:59 pm
The reason no one blames Germany for its past is that current germany has nothing to do with na zi germany. Whereas Russia is heading back to its roots as SU

where u got this stupid idea from? Communist party is low rated, and when they placed stalin statue in RUSSIA it got pissed over by paint.
on the other hand if u watch CNN that critisizes and seeing only bad things in everything that russia does then u need a brain surgery
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 11, 2015, 02:40:12 pm
Quote from: Vibe on May 11, 2015, 02:36:12 pm
Rofl, honestly, what's with you and einstein? Are you refering to atom bomb or something?
einstein its autocorrect for hit ler :P nubas!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 02:42:19 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:18:54 pm
But u all together hate russians now, or just dislike.

My view on this is that u change ur opinions depending on politics as little whores, if Russia would be ur allies in modern world u would probably defend it on forums and spray ur shit at opposition. By the look of recent events, tables may turn and EU politics towards russia and china will change.


I don't dislike russia for its past any more than any other country, i'm the kind of person that looks to the future and what can be done to make the world  a better, more peaceful and sustainable place; starting of course with Europe.  Your government is with out a doubt one of the world powers who's current policy is to expand and destabilize as much as possible to counter the expansion and unification of European states. Historical revisionism and propaganda are the most clear in Russia as it increasingly attempts to set it's people at odds with those of the west, something that i believe no-body wants.  I think there are really very few people in Europe who want Russia as an enemy, we would much rather have the Russian people working with us in cooperation than in opposition, but you're government see's itself as threatened and in the last decade has responded with Machiavellian maneuvers to serve it's own self interest.

The Russian people are suffering to service the political desires of Putins regime and yet you sit here and blame it on western hatred of Russia. There is no hatred of the Russian people, but a rightly held distrust of the Russian government.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2015, 02:49:42 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 11, 2015, 02:40:12 pm
einstein its autocorrect for hit ler :P nubas!

 :mad:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:49:44 pm
Quote from: Vibe on May 11, 2015, 02:27:10 pm
That's because most (reasonable) people hate for present, not past, you fool. Germany is well aware of what they've done in WW2 and have in fact even banned neo nasees and people praising the Reich and such, from what I've heard. You don't see them making parades with tanks and shit and cheering for their accomplishments in WW2, unlike Russia, huh? And why the fuck would we hate ANY country for Einstein?

don't know if u noticed but parades was since war was over, every year. I don't see such idiotic reaction of the west every ear we have a parade.
Soon all veterans will die of old age, its their last parades and celebrations.
its very funny Casimir, tho some US/UK and other country vets came to parade in Russia. And vets in UK recieved medals from Russian Embassy, and whoever lives in czech republic visited statues of Czech heroes of ww2. Its multi national.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:56:39 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 02:42:19 pm

I don't dislike russia for its past any more than any other country, i'm the kind of person that looks to the future and what can be done to make the world  a better, more peaceful and sustainable place; starting of course with Europe.  Your government is with out a doubt one of the world powers who's current policy is to expand and destabilize as much as possible to counter the expansion and unification of European states. Historical revisionism and propaganda are the most clear in Russia as it increasingly attempts to set it's people at odds with those of the west, something that i believe no-body wants.  I think there are really very few people in Europe who want Russia as an enemy, we would much rather have the Russian people working with us in cooperation than in opposition, but you're government see's itself as threatened and in the last decade has responded with Machiavellian maneuvers to serve it's own self interest.

The Russian people are suffering to service the political desires of Putins regime and yet you sit here and blame it on western hatred of Russia. There is no hatred of the Russian people, but a rightly held distrust of the Russian government.

haha Putins regime, people suffering :)))
Vovka u suffering?
he is more popular then ever before
he's done so much in last couple of months i could describe it here all day!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 02:59:09 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:49:44 pm
don't know if u noticed but parades was since war was over, every year. I don't see such idiotic reaction of the west every ear we have a parade.
Soon all veterans will die of old age, its their last parades and celebrations.
its very funny Casimir, tho some US/UK and other country vets came to parade in Russia. And vets in UK recieved medals from Russian Embassy, and whoever lives in czech republic visited statues of Czech heroes of ww2. Its multi national.

My uncle was part of the civilian staff with the Welsh Guards who marched in parade in Russia just a few years ago. I really have no problem with these parades as I said, I am just worried that Russia, both it's people and government, is taking an increasingly hostile approach to western relations and that Putin is putting the clock back with regards to European integration.  I don't like the way that the Russian government is currently leading it's people, they are shutting down objective historical interpretations of the past and are now driving the Russian people into a frenzied hatred of the west.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Moncho on May 11, 2015, 03:04:27 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:06:41 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:56:39 pm
haha Putins regime, people suffering :)))
Vovka u suffering?
he is more popular then ever before
he's done so much in last couple of months i could describe it here all day!

Oh yeah there definitely aren't people who are being beaten and repressed for their sexuality, political or religious beliefs, everyone in Russia is having a great time for sure. If you two guys are doing alright I guess every person living in Russia is just fine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 03:13:06 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 02:59:09 pm
My uncle was part of the civilian staff with the Welsh Guards who marched in parade in Russia just a few years ago. I really have no problem with these parades as I said, I am just worried that Russia, both it's people and government, is taking an increasingly hostile approach to western relations and that Putin is putting the clock back with regards to European integration.  I don't like the way that the Russian government is currently leading it's people, they are shutting down objective historical interpretations of the past and are now driving the Russian people into a frenzied hatred of the west.
where exactly do u see this aggression?
if u have doubts about Crimea, go there and ask around
if u think that russia want destroyed donbas to become part of russia then why they didn't do same thing as in crimea? Why all this peace talk. Read UN reports and u will see that both parts causing problems. Mighty UKRs and DNR
If u think russia planning to expand over europe. Then why he made new deals with all represetitives from EU in last few weeks. Turkey will get gas pipe, then Greece, then hugerian PM came and also asked for pipe from Greece, then italians. And among this new trade deals on Electric stations and fuel from Russia and med equip and other stuff from EU countries. Putin said clearly that he will work with everyone and thats why he does. To be honest if u read up there is a lot of deals was signed lately between all EU countries and Russia. Also Germany, UK, Italy, France and even Australia joined AIIM Chinise bank. They all getting to be partners soon. Putin also said that the more deals countries have between eachother, the more money they generate on trade the safe it is.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2015, 03:15:58 pm
Hungarian PM is a fucking traitor who can only build football stadiums and lick the boot of Putin and Erdogan.

He is a traitor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 11, 2015, 03:17:15 pm
Honest question, is there a Russian on these forums besides Logen who is capable of reading between the lines?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 03:17:20 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:38:25 am
unlike u everyone here knows about Finland being invaded and Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, multiple times it was said as being big mistakes and also splitting influence over countries with BRITISH and US government over europe after war was over. Trying to put ur ideology over other countries is a bad thing. Its same as british empire taking over 1/3 of whole land mass in its best times.
<bullshit>
ORLY? I think your hero putler doesn't know it...
https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/merkel-listens-as-putin-defends-ussrs-pact-with-chocolate chip cookie-germany-388241.html
Quote
Putin reportedly demonstrated his diverging view over the current war in Ukraine and WWII history by saying there “was sense” to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

“Poland became a victim of its own policy,” he said, referring to its partition by the USSR and chocolate chip cookie Germany in 1939, adding that Kremlin leaders back then signed the controversial agreements to “avoid direct confrontation.”

“The pact made sense from a standpoint of security of the Soviet Union. It so happened that after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its partition, [Poland] itself became the victim of the policy it tried to pursue in Europe,” he added.

Sooo... a mistake in text books calling russian mistake a mistake is actually a mistake, quick, update the russian truth (c)!

Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 02:18:54 pm
lol again heroes USA stopped Soviets from wiping population in all EU, by getting involved they just took control of part of europe when it was divided, what was stopping soviets of wiping population in new countries under its control? maybe the fact they never planned to do so?
<bullshit>
Nothing was stopping them and they DID that in the countries they occupied. Banishment to Siberia, Holodomor, mass repressions during soviet rule... take your pick.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 03:26:17 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 03:13:06 pm
where exactly do u see this aggression?
if u have doubts about Crimea, go there and ask around
if u think that russia want destroyed donbas to become part of russia then why they didn't do same thing as in crimea? Why all this peace talk. Read UN reports and u will see that both parts causing problems.

I dont understand how you dont see this as aggression? Even Hitler said before he started WW2 that Austria has technically always been theirs, just like russians are doing now. The fucking annexed lands in the center of Europe. How could you possibly consider this normal?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:29:52 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 03:13:06 pm
where exactly do u see this aggression?
if u have doubts about Crimea, go there and ask around
if u think that russia want destroyed donbas to become part of russia then why they didn't do same thing as in crimea? Why all this peace talk. Read UN reports and u will see that both parts causing problems. Mighty UKRs and DNR
If u think russia planning to expand over europe. Then why he made new deals with all represetitives from EU in last few weeks. Turkey will get gas pipe, then Greece, then hugerian PM came and also asked for pipe from Greece, then italians. And among this new trade deals on Electric stations and fuel from Russia and med equip and other stuff from EU countries. Putin said clearly that he will work with everyone and thats why he does. To be honest if u read up there is a lot of deals was signed lately between all EU countries and Russia. Also Germany, UK, Italy, France and even Australia joined AIIM Chinise bank. They all getting to be partners soon. Putin also said that the more deals countries have between eachother, the more money they generate on trade the safe it is.

These are all very good stop gaps, in the mean time the diplomatic rehtoric is still one of confrontation over cooperation.  Putin has been forced into making these business deals because of the sanctions imposed upon Russia by it's political policy.

The aggression I see is quite clear, besides the clear stepping up of conventional military forces with the latest military doctrine i'll list a few :  The annexation of Crimea, the naming of Ukraine's eastern regions as Novorossiya (New Russia), using tsarist terminology, revival of Soviet symbolism and mythology, the sponsorship of terrorism and separatism in Ukraine, the organisation of frozen conflicts in Moldova, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, coercive creation of the Eurasian Union, aggressive use of Gazprom as a political tool, and the formulation of a right to protect Russian speakers abroad.

That's the shit Putin is pulling and it is causing suffering for many people which will only get worse unless he decides to reverse this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 03:37:12 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:06:41 pm
Oh yeah there definitely aren't people who are being beaten and repressed for their sexuality, political or religious beliefs, everyone in Russia is having a great time for sure. If you two guys are doing alright I guess every person living in Russia is just fine.
hahah :)) really

here is russian opposition this year! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO9NPjlzAAs
this riot could destroy country
there was better last year but its was just meeting, nobody got killed, few arrests.

here is one in UK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FuEHg8RBv8
USA riot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cungbgYd3iE
France https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFj3oc7vTm0
Germany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJBbWhQT6hU
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 03:40:55 pm
Let's make new referendums in Donbass and in Crimea and see what they will choose. Ukraine will sell almost all their companies to the west. A lot of western products fulled the market in Ukraine. Ukraine production will be killed later.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 03:41:33 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 03:26:17 pm
I dont understand how you dont see this as aggression? Even Hitler said before he started WW2 that Austria has technically always been theirs, just like russians are doing now. The fucking annexed lands in the center of Europe. How could you possibly consider this normal?
i don't understand how you don't see that revolt in Ukraine and attack/war on opposition is not an aggression by Ukraine?
how about Kosovo War in the middle of europe?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2015, 03:41:57 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 03:37:12 pm
here is russian opposition this year! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO9NPjlzAAs

is this gay activism rally? girl at 33min aw yeh i'd do that, pretty and those weary eyes that show tiredeness and frustration of living in Russia, mmm yeh

'u pls sir i suk for potato'
'cmere puto ima show you an authentic southern slavic meat flute'
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:48:13 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 03:37:12 pm
here is one in UK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FuEHg8RBv8

Ah yes this is very representative of what is currently going on in my country, thank you for opening my eyes.

Political freedom in your country is made a mockery of: https://ovdinfo.org/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 11, 2015, 03:50:04 pm
You do realize that "Riot in Germany" is a video from a police training?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 04:01:13 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:29:52 pm
These are all very good stop gaps, in the mean time the diplomatic rehtoric is still one of confrontation over cooperation.  Putin has been forced into making these business deals because of the sanctions imposed upon Russia by it's political policy.

The aggression I see is quite clear, besides the clear stepping up of conventional military forces with the latest military doctrine i'll list a few :  The annexation of Crimea, the naming of Ukraine's eastern regions as Novorossiya (New Russia), using tsarist terminology, revival of Soviet symbolism and mythology, the sponsorship of terrorism and separatism in Ukraine, the organisation of frozen conflicts in Moldova, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, coercive creation of the Eurasian Union, aggressive use of Gazprom as a political tool, and the formulation of a right to protect Russian speakers abroad.

That's the shit Putin is pulling and it is causing suffering for many people which will only get worse unless he decides to reverse this.

OMG u really think sanctions forced Putin to start making deals with EU? :)))) lets see
if before rich ppl and business owners in russian use to hold their money in EU/US banks, now they tend to move everything in russia, because of fear of losing money
he kicked eu from Agricultural market of Russia, all Agri companies in russia right now soooooo happy to occupy agri market. In interviews, farmers and owners of large agri firms asking in each interview not to lift Agri sanctions against europe they need more time to take over. And when Austrian PM said when issue with sanction will be over we will go back to proper trade and Lavrov said, well only except Agri :)
one of the funniest, visa and mastercard refused to service russia, so russians creating their own cards now and they have 0% competition. If that wouldn't happen, then russia would never be able to create and get ppl to use their own credit cards.
at the beginning ppl was a bit worried about sanctions, right now its like the best thing that ever happened :) within this time country become 10% less dependent on oil or gass. its like within half a year or so.
there are some down sides but they not critical
oil prices rose ruble but at the same time its killing Shale gas and Oil companies in US
there is just so much more, but too long to write

Putin making deals in EU to influence them for economic alliance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 04:02:22 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2015, 03:50:04 pm
You do realize that "Riot in Germany" is a video from a police training?

i took the first one from youtube, do u want me to find another one? like farmers against Free trade with US or something else?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 04:04:17 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:48:13 pm
Ah yes this is very representative of what is currently going on in my country, thank you for opening my eyes.

Political freedom in your country is made a mockery of: https://ovdinfo.org/

found this image there on this site
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looks like UK police to me
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 04:05:29 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:48:13 pm
Ah yes this is very representative of what is currently going on in my country, thank you for opening my eyes.

Political freedom in your country is made a mockery of: https://ovdinfo.org/

i lived in UK i know how its there, for better understanding maybe u should go to Ukraine first and then Russia, see how its there and also Crimea :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 04:15:59 pm
Nebun why is it that everything you wrote here, is just bogus and very time consuming to explain in detail why its all wrong? :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 04:19:10 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 04:01:13 pm
OMG u really think sanctions forced Putin to start making deals with EU? :)))) lets see
if before rich ppl and business owners in russian use to hold their money in EU/US banks, now they tend to move everything in russia, because of fear of losing money
he kicked eu from Agricultural market of Russia, all Agri companies in russia right now soooooo happy to occupy agri market. In interviews, farmers and owners of large agri firms asking in each interview not to lift Agri sanctions against europe they need more time to take over. And when Austrian PM said when issue with sanction will be over we will go back to proper trade and Lavrov said, well only except Agri :)
one of the funniest, visa and mastercard refused to service russia, so russians creating their own cards now and they have 0% competition. If that wouldn't happen, then russia would never be able to create and get ppl to use their own credit cards.
at the beginning ppl was a bit worried about sanctions, right now its like the best thing that ever happened :) within this time country become 10% less dependent on oil or gass. its like within half a year or so.
there are some down sides but they not critical
oil prices rose ruble but at the same time its killing Shale gas and Oil companies in US
there is just so much more, but too long to write

Putin making deals in EU to influence them for economic alliance.

I'm sure that will end well for you. I remember hearing about this agricultural revolution in Russia, undoubtedly that is of great benefit, but what of your tech industry, heavy industry, steel production, and all the other high earning manufactures which now have half their business fucked. If you think farming will make up for those long term losses you're sorely mistaken.


Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 04:05:29 pm
i lived in UK i know how its there, for better understanding maybe u should go to Ukraine first and then Russia, see how its there and also Crimea :)

I'd love to come and live in Russia for a while, it seems like an amazing country; however it seem that it's increasingly hostile towards foreigners and non-Russian nationalist's.

15 people arrested in one day of violent protest and all but one have since been released on bail; no more today, peaceful protests again but no arrests.  These people weren't arrested for their political views but because of criminal damage and assault upon police officers. This occurred after a flash-point of the general election, one of the most closely contested in recent history and tempers have already calmed.

You're police managed to arrest 8 protesters in Moscow today alone, it's impressive.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 04:25:25 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 04:19:10 pm
You're police managed to arrest 8 protesters in Moscow today alone, it's impressive.
Maybe because that was against the law?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 04:33:40 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 04:25:25 pm
Maybe because that was against the law?

I mean, maybe its google translate that makes all those reports on that website sound so bad, but seriously it seems like there is a real issue with detaining all these protesters to me?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 04:38:05 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 11, 2015, 03:15:58 pm
Hungarian PM is a fucking traitor who can only build football stadiums and lick the boot of Putin and Erdogan.

He is a traitor.

since u think that Hungarian PM is traitor, then i will also update it for u.
Czech too then, and Greece, and Italy, and Austria, and now Germany. But to be honest all EU countries who joined AIIM bank in April are traitors to US.

just for fun short summary for those who like to read
China, 2 gas deals + oil. Gas deal bigger then with whole europe, will start functioning in 2-3 years. Rare metals/minerals to China, overall trade http://www.rcif.com/russia-china-trade.htm, News weapons and military equip to China
New Eurasian Economic Union and the Silk Road Economic Belt. New currency soon for Eurasian Economic Union are the Republic of Armenia, the Republic of Belarus, the Republic of Kazakhstan and the Russian Federation.

New deals on power plants: Hungary, Egypt, India, China, Pakistan?(need to check but i think so), Iran, Nigeria, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa
this is only those i know of
Gas only new deals: china, india, pakistan, greece, italy, hungary, serbia, turkey, egypt
Weapons/Military equip only new deals: Egypt, Iran, Brasil, Argentina, China (china ordering more then all of them together multiple times, just lots and lots, even read somewhere that there will be no new deals until China's order done)
Agriculture countries fighting now for freed fruit market: Greece back on partly, Egypt, Turkey (not sure if its new with turkey or always was), Brasil, Argentina, India

this is just few things of larger scale i know of that happened recently, around sanctions period.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2015, 04:39:26 pm
You know shit about what you are using as your own "propogonda"

Shut your mouth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 05:12:29 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 11, 2015, 04:39:26 pm
You know shit about what you are using as your own "propogonda"

Shut your mouth.

CHECK, google will help u
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2015, 05:25:20 pm
no need, you russians are all 'propogonded'

 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 05:31:53 pm
i know u don't understand russian but unity of ukraine is stunning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3qRvA818XA

Veterans enraged when UKR soldier said that he is fighting against aggressor now like in 1941 :))))
Video is short starts somewhere in the middle

They made chocolate chip cookie Bandera national hero now who was killing families and friends of this Vets, and they trying to make vets feel good about it now.

At some point after government change in Moldova - government created medals for Romanians who moved to moldova after ww2 but was fighting on chocolate chip cookie side. Our Vets and Population almost rebelled at sight of this and Government changed their mind.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 05:33:14 pm
Quote from: Christo on May 11, 2015, 05:25:20 pm
no need, you russians are all 'propogonded'

 :lol:

and where u from>?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 11, 2015, 05:33:19 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 04:19:10 pm
[...]
I'd love to come and live in Russia for a while, it seems like an amazing country; however it seem that it's increasingly hostile towards foreigners and non-Russian nationalist's.
[...]
You would?! :shock:

I sure won't take a single step in that direction.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 05:34:09 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2015, 05:33:19 pm
You would?! :shock:

I sure won't take a single step in that direction.

you'll never know until u try
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 11, 2015, 05:36:53 pm
Oh, believe me, I do know.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 05:41:43 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2015, 05:36:53 pm
Oh, believe me, I do know.

u so good and mysterious that u don't need to explain anything - maybe u can be next Kansler in Germany.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: arowaine on May 11, 2015, 05:59:09 pm
Well in any way i vote for russian in any conflic my proof are here


www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3jV93rNils
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on May 11, 2015, 06:15:59 pm
"Shit, mister Hittler is loosing the war, let's invade Europe before reds do".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 06:37:13 pm
Nebun - why don't you move to russia? Its a great country, eh? Maybe eventually you will be blocked from c-rpg forums, for your own security...

Don - with the brainwashed referendums and 50% of people having left the region of the military action - you sure put a lot of emphasis on "oppinion of the people" when it suits russias POV, but disregard maidan easily and sumarily, as well as general oppinion of people of Ukraine, expressed via legitimate vote in elections of president and rada. Why is that? As to "why people in one territory should not be taken out of context of their neighbors" - same sample of a brainwashed kid committing a crime applies. russia created this conflict (or more to the point IGNITED it by escalating tensions, which ARE present in every country) and is doing nothing to deescalate, vice-versa IMO. And you keep coming here asking to "think of the children"... well - putler and your whole society of sheeple should have thought of them earlier.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 06:46:50 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2015, 05:33:19 pm
You would?! :shock:

I sure won't take a single step in that direction.

Sure, at the moment there's nothing that would particularly pull me towards Russia over any other country but it would also be an incredibly eye opening and mind expanding experience to live there.  I can't really think of any 'developed' country that I wouldn't want to live in.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 06:48:46 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 06:37:13 pm
Don - with the brainwashed referendums and 50% of people having left the region of the military action - you sure put a lot of emphasis on "oppinion of the people" when it suits russias POV, but disregard maidan easily and sumarily, as well as general oppinion of people of Ukraine, expressed via legitimate vote in elections of president and rada. Why is that? As to "why people in one territory should not be taken out of context of their neighbors" - same sample of a brainwashed kid committing a crime applies. russia created this conflict (or more to the point IGNITED it by escalating tensions, which ARE present in every country) and is doing nothing to deescalate, vice-versa IMO. And you keep coming here asking to "think of the children"... well - putler and your whole society of sheeple should have thought of them earlier.
You think that 50% of people left Crimea? or 1 mln people from Donbass is 50%, well it is your first mistake. Maidan wasn't general opinion of Ukraine, you can find it easily. There were a lot of anti-maidans. This elections are legit as Crimea and Donbass referendum. They both have done after illegal revolution. And other too...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 06:52:30 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 06:37:13 pm
Nebun - why don't you move to russia? Its a great country, eh? Maybe eventually you will be blocked from c-rpg forums, for your own security...

Don - with the brainwashed referendums and 50% of people having left the region of the military action - you sure put a lot of emphasis on "oppinion of the people" when it suits russias POV, but disregard maidan easily and sumarily, as well as general oppinion of people of Ukraine, expressed via legitimate vote in elections of president and rada. Why is that? As to "why people in one territory should not be taken out of context of their neighbors" - same sample of a brainwashed kid committing a crime applies. russia created this conflict (or more to the point IGNITED it by escalating tensions, which ARE present in every country) and is doing nothing to deescalate, vice-versa IMO. And you keep coming here asking to "think of the children"... well - putler and your whole society of sheeple should have thought of them earlier.

maybe i will :)
why do u assume that ur point of view is accurate? because u supported by other EU citizens on this forum? well their all allies for now. All u described is just point of view. Revolt happened and then was election without participation of east part of Ukraine in that election. And here we go this is good for u and crimea where was no revolt, and local government made a decision + referendum is act of war and aggression for u :)

well my friends move out from moldova, most move to Russia, one who have work in EU moved to EU. I'm staying for now, because my sallary doesn't depend on moldovian politics or economy. But if Romanians decide to join Moldova into Romania, civil war will happen, either with all moldova or just in transistria.
If this will happen i'll move out
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 07:01:46 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 06:54:35 pm
Pretty accurate actually, because when *we* 'liberate' a European country we give it back.

When Russia 'liberates' a country they discover that it was secretly an ancient Russian homeland that rightful belongs to them.

The hardest part after winning a war in Europe is preventing Russia from trying to steal the land of everyone who lost.
really :) how many military bases u have in Germany? and where is all their gold held?
and how many bases u have in other vassal countries?
i give it that to US government they know how to keep vassals happy, unlike soviets
all u need is movies and mac donalds to win them over
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 07:06:35 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 07:01:46 pm
really :) how many military bases u have in Germany? and where is all their gold held?
and how many bases u have in other vassal countries?
i give it that to US government they know how to keep vassals happy, unlike soviets
all u need is movies and mac donalds to win them over
Do you not understand what a military base is, you fucking moron?

Here's some new news: people want US mil bases in their countries BECAUSE OF RUSSIA, retard.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 07:17:27 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2015, 07:06:35 pm
Do you not understand what a military base is, you fucking moron?

Here's some new news: people want US mil bases in their countries BECAUSE OF RUSSIA, retard.

u simpleminded retard :))) its like russia needs ur country right now, and doesn't need to populate and develop its own
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 11, 2015, 07:22:45 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 07:01:46 pm
really :) how many military bases u have in Germany? and where is all their gold held?
and how many bases u have in other vassal countries?
i give it that to US government they know how to keep vassals happy, unlike soviets
all u need is movies and mac donalds to win them over

herp derp
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 07:26:38 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 06:48:46 pm
You think that 50% of people left Crimea? or 1 mln people from Donbass is 50%, well it is your first mistake. Maidan wasn't general opinion of Ukraine, you can find it easily. There were a lot of anti-maidans. This elections are legit as Crimea and Donbass referendum. They both have done after illegal revolution. And other too...
Oh, I don't know... Ellections, which WERE monitored and deemed mostly free and fair, have shown, that ovewhelming majority supported maidan and what it was striving for... So please look it up, what are those sources of yours?

Also - how can you call those shams in Crimea and Donbass elections? They were referendums, completely unmonitored, fucking TRUCKS of voting papers were intercepted already marked, percentage of people voting was ridiculous... and you STILL call them "legit"? Pink diploma much?

Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 06:52:30 pm
maybe i will :)
why do u assume that ur point of view is accurate? because u supported by other EU citizens on this forum? well their all allies for now. All u described is just point of view. Revolt happened and then was election without participation of east part of Ukraine in that election. And here we go this is good for u and crimea where was no revolt, and local government made a decision + referendum is act of war and aggression for u :)

well my friends move out from moldova, most move to Russia, one who have work in EU moved to EU. I'm staying for now, because my sallary doesn't depend on moldovian politics or economy. But if Romanians decide to join Moldova into Romania, civil war will happen, either with all moldova or just in transistria.
If this will happen i'll move out
Why do you think I assume "that my POV is accurate"? Do you think your is? I see too much russian "coverage" in yours and a significant lack of seeing what russia is actually doing. So?

And you stated pretty clearly, that your are what one would call "prodazhnaja shkura", so russia, where such boot-lickers with zero morals are needed for supporting cleptocracy of theirs, is the bestest place. Good luck :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2015, 07:26:43 pm
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 07:39:02 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 07:26:38 pm
Oh, I don't know... Ellections, which WERE monitored and deemed mostly free and fair, have shown, that ovewhelming majority supported maidan and what it was striving for... So please look it up, what are those sources of yours?

Also - how can you call those shams in Crimea and Donbass elections? They were referendums, completely unmonitored, fucking TRUCKS of voting papers were intercepted already marked, percentage of people voting was ridiculous... and you STILL call them "legit"? Pink diploma much?
Why do you think I assume "that my POV is accurate"? Do you think your is? I see too much russian "coverage" in yours and a significant lack of seeing what russia is actually doing. So?

And you stated pretty clearly, that your are what one would call "prodazhnaja shkura", so russia, where such boot-lickers with zero morals are needed for supporting cleptocracy of theirs, is the bestest place. Good luck :)

it feels like u was there!! u get all this info either from new government of ukraine or from ur media. Russians get from their media. USE UTUBE check real videos of people and ask opinions.
For example we already know Daves opinion on the subject. How about others, we have about 5 ukranians in our clan who thinks completely opposite, 1 or 2 don't care. I have friend living in Lvov he is completely opposite of current government, but what can he do? :)
I'm sure there is also enough ppl with opinion like Dave, but don't tell me that their nation is unified in all of this bullshit!!!!!!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 08:01:57 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2015, 05:33:19 pm
You would?! :shock:

I sure won't take a single step in that direction.

Its not actually that bad, as you might think. But yea, russians got massive tolerance issues, which is the main part that kinda ruins it all. I should be scared. Im Baltic and baltics are the most extreme fascists(next to Ukraine now) in Europe according to russian reports(and only russian reports, nobody elses in the World :D). Pretty sure id get instantly baseballbat to the knees. I think since Casimir is english, they wont beat him up. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 11, 2015, 08:13:18 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 11, 2015, 03:06:41 pm
Oh yeah there definitely aren't people who are being beaten and repressed for their sexuality, political or religious beliefs, everyone in Russia is having a great time for sure. If you two guys are doing alright I guess every person living in Russia is just fine.
IAM GAY AND IAM HAPPY TO LIVE IN RUSSIA! I LOVE PUTIN!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 08:15:04 pm
Vüvka is going to be putin jail for that one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 08:18:55 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 08:01:57 pm
Its not actually that bad, as you might think. But yea, russians got massive tolerance issues, which is the main part that kinda ruins it all. I should be scared. Im Baltic and baltics are the most extreme fascists(next to Ukraine now) in Europe according to russian reports(and only russian reports, nobody elses in the World :D). Pretty sure id get instantly baseballbat to the knees. I think since Casimir is english, they wont beat him up. :D

what a twisted ideas u have, nobody would touch u there, and u should know that people from balkans way better recieved then english.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on May 11, 2015, 08:19:50 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 08:15:04 pm
Vüvka is going to be putin jail for that one.

aaaaah, get outta' here  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 08:23:26 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 08:15:04 pm
Vüvka is going to be putin jail for that one.

which balkan country u from?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 11, 2015, 08:23:52 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 08:18:55 pm
what a twisted ideas u have, nobody would touch u there, and u should know that people from balkans way better recieved then english.

Thats nice, but theres quite a difference between Balkans and Baltics. That was not a typo. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 08:32:37 pm
too bad! :)
u know where i'm from :) don't shy, tell
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 08:38:19 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 07:39:02 pm
it feels like u was there!! u get all this info either from new government of ukraine or from ur media. Russians get from their media. USE UTUBE check real videos of people and ask opinions.
For example we already know Daves opinion on the subject. How about others, we have about 5 ukranians in our clan who thinks completely opposite, 1 or 2 don't care. I have friend living in Lvov he is completely opposite of current government, but what can he do? :)
I'm sure there is also enough ppl with opinion like Dave, but don't tell me that their nation is unified in all of this bullshit!!!!!!
Let me just quick-check that for you...
So you have a russia themed clan and you are declaring its miniscule population representative of Ukraine's current pool of oppinions in opposition to legit and free ellections, whose outcome would not have been swayed, even given all annexed/"separatist" lands voted 100% against the parties carrying Maidans ideas forward...

Sure, go back to this "russian reality" of yours, it sounds oh-so much true...

Also a NEWSFLASH FOR YOU: there is very rarely approval ratings the like of dictatorship in russia enjoys. Quite the opposite actually.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 08:43:29 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 07:17:27 pm
u simpleminded retard :))) its like russia needs ur country right now, and doesn't need to populate and develop its own
Tell that to Georgia and Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 09:00:16 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 08:38:19 pm
Let me just quick-check that for you...
So you have a russia themed clan and you are declaring its miniscule population representative of Ukraine's current pool of oppinions in opposition to legit and free ellections, whose outcome would not have been swayed, even given all annexed/"separatist" lands voted 100% against the parties carrying Maidans ideas forward...

Sure, go back to this "russian reality" of yours, it sounds oh-so much true...

Also a NEWSFLASH FOR YOU: there is very rarely approval ratings the like of dictatorship in russia enjoys. Quite the opposite actually.

u so smart :)) and so right we beat up our ukrainian clan members to keep them in line
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 09:14:59 pm
Russia so weak that they submit to Mongols.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 09:29:49 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 08:38:19 pm
Let me just quick-check that for you...
So you have a russia themed clan and you are declaring its miniscule population representative of Ukraine's current pool of oppinions in opposition to legit and free ellections, whose outcome would not have been swayed, even given all annexed/"separatist" lands voted 100% against the parties carrying Maidans ideas forward...
I need to teach you some math really. There are about 46 mln people in Ukraine. 18 mln voted in this elections, 18 mln is less then 50% of the population in Ukraine. By the constitution of Ukraine if there are less then 50% of population voted then elections are illegal
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 09:59:37 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 09:16:21 pm
I'll tell you what we don't do, try and force them to join the Union, claim a deep-seated ancestral link and try and merge them into our country whilst simultaneously having backwards laws against homosexuality. But on the plus side at least Russia beat the Nazis eh?

I mean, just imagine if the Nazis had won and conquered Russia. The Russian populace would be totally deluded by an endless blanket of propaganda, and tricked into thinking their beloved leader is some awesome paternal figure whilst across the country Russians are being beaten, raped and treated as second class citizens for not being part of some supposed strong heterosexual 'master race'. Thank god you dont have to put up with that. I'd sure be grateful for the millions who died to prevent *that* future if i were Russian, lives well spent eh.

Or Stalin could've just built a giant gas chamber and marched his army in, then presented his ass to Hitler because either way you get modern day Russia,

fun to hear that from u,
what is that terms america was depopulated? slaughtering native americans
don't talk to me about history
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 10:01:33 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 11, 2015, 09:29:49 pm
I need to teach you some math really. There are about 46 mln people in Ukraine. 18 mln voted in this elections, 18 mln is less then 50% of the population in Ukraine. By the constitution of Ukraine if there are less then 50% of population voted then elections are illegal
Please check YOUR "RT" statistics next time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014#Voter_turnout
Voted - 18,019,504
Total registered voters - 30,099,246

Care to eat your hat now?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 10:05:09 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 09:59:37 pm
fun to hear that from u,
what is that terms america was depopulated? slaughtering native americans
don't talk to me about history
And how the fuck do you think Russia was founded? With peace and love? Surely not tribe(s) moving into the area and slaughtering the original inhabitants until they were dead or subjugated? Russians truly are in a league of their own in the "omg russia victim, america bad, russia never do nuttin wrong"

Quote from: Kuujis on May 11, 2015, 10:01:33 pm
Please check YOUR "RT" statistics next time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014#Voter_turnout
Voted - 18,019,504
Total registered voters - 30,099,246

Care to eat your hat now?
If the children don't vote it's not a legit election.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:07:19 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2015, 10:05:09 pm
And how the fuck do you think Russia was founded? With peace and love? Surely not tribe(s) moving into the area and slaughtering the original inhabitants until they were dead or subjugated? Russians truly are in a league of their own in the "omg russia victim, america bad, russia never do nuttin wrong"
If the children don't vote it's not a legit election.

if u don't know history u can go and visit those tribes in syberia and east they will tell u how they feel about it :)) none of the areas was depopulated, there was conflicts but on small scale without killing population
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:08:59 pm
there is a lot of interesting side changing and deals happening right now in the world, lets see how it goes in few years
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 10:10:43 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:07:19 pm
if u don't know history u can go and visit those tribes in syberia and east they will tell u how they feel about it :)) none of the areas was depopulated, there was conflicts but on small scale without killing population
Russia can't even keep their history half accurate when it comes to events 50 years ago, your records from thousands of years ago are worthless. Fact: every land has been claimed with bloodshed at one point.

Actually, why are you even talking about America and the natives? Is this the stage #3 of Russians arguing?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Andswaru on May 11, 2015, 10:24:24 pm
The British Empire was a glorious instituation for depopulating various parts of the world, however the only really mean thing we did to native americans was give them the common cold. For which we applogise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:31:36 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2015, 10:10:43 pm
Russia can't even keep their history half accurate when it comes to events 50 years ago, your records from thousands of years ago are worthless. Fact: every land has been claimed with bloodshed at one point.

Actually, why are you even talking about America and the natives? Is this the stage #3 of Russians arguing?

u have no sense of scale, in one u kill ALLL in another u kill less in fact so much less that they population WHOLE their original area! Thats huge difference.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:33:03 pm
Quote from: Andswaru on May 11, 2015, 10:24:24 pm
The British Empire was a glorious instituation for depopulating various parts of the world, however the only really mean thing we did to native americans was give them the common cold. For which we applogise.

if that's the case then Russia is saint :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:47:53 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 10:35:45 pm
Technically didnt Columbus give them the cold and kill 90% of their population?

As for the British Empire if by 'depopulating' you mean the slave trade then that's a little different than genocide.

The British Empire was a lot of shitty things, but notice how all the nations who were long-term members of the Empire still have living natives? America's the only one with deliberate anti-native genocide and that happened after we left. That was propaganda victory of the 18th century, creating puppets and working with the Natives (Russia is 2 centuries out of date), not exterminating them. How could a tiny island create an Empire by exterminating natives anyway? It's not like we needed 'living space' across 4 continents.

Congrats on reaching the morality of 18th Century Britain.

no i meant killing people, but since u talk about slavery u can add it as well
maybe some countries population was too big to kill them all :)

i guess cold also traveled to India
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 10:58:41 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 10:39:38 pm
You have no sense of reality.

1. There are still Native Americans today, nobody killed them 'ALLL'
2. We dont even grasp the scale yet of how much airborn disease massacred the native population, again in russian history i'm sure it was deliberate chemical warfare from even western europe.
3. Xant is Finnish, he never exterminated Native Americans.
4. The people who deliberately exterminated Native Americans made it *abundantly* clear that they were not a part of the Empire (Declaration of Independence) before they began killing the Natives.

1. Thank god u didn't kill them all, how many left? Do u know them all by names? Must be easy to remember.
2. Chemical showers was kinda chocolate chip cookie thing they invented it, the rest is ur imagination.
3. If xant is getting in the way of our conversation i reply to him too.
4. Ah yes it must be comforting to think that way. Its like with kids. If parents proud of them then "Its my baby!!!!!! A raised him that way!", and if he does something bad then its someone elses bad influence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2015, 11:00:38 pm
So would you mind saying how what the British Empire did in India and the Americans did in America has anything to do with anything?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:10:16 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 10:53:20 pm
It sure is tragic that Britain committed genocide against India and wiped out the native population there... O wait.

I just want to confirm for my own amusement, it is your impression that the British wiped out the Native Americans is that correct?

It is also your view that this act, assuming it is true for one brilliant moment, justifies Russian action against Ukraine in 2015. Is that also correct? So that mighty and morally superior Russia gets to claim it is equal to the morality of Britain in the 18th Century? That would surely be a mighty achievement, if this wasnt the 21st Century.

if i did, i would say that
my point was that ur country done way too much shit and for u this isn't bad but russian history is just horrible and full of violence

on Ukraine i can ask u the same thing. Do u justify that actions of EU/US/Ukrainian government is good towards Ukrainian population? That all fighting happened in Donbas? infrastructure and a lot of homes destroyed! That chocolate chip cookie group was proclaimed heroes?
Yes i think what happened with Crimea saved those people from war and future shit with their government.
But at the same time i don't think that Russia need donbas or war in Ukraine. If everybody does what they agreed to then there should be no problems!

on the side note: I would never side with any Fascist no matter what are circumstances, even if my life would depend on it!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:14:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 11, 2015, 11:00:38 pm
So would you mind saying how what the British Empire did in India and the Americans did in America has anything to do with anything?
aren't we playing competition of who's been worse for the last 20 posts or so?
about double standards? When everything u do is great and everything someone else does is bad?

to be honest xant just forget, i wasn't meant to get in discussion with u, ur just upset and complete idiot
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:24:57 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 11:14:09 pm
Because stage 3:
(refresher for any new-comers)
(click to show/hide)

'Ancient Greeks probably raped small boys, I dont have any sources or proof to back this up but when i rape small boys today it is acceptable for this reason'. MLG-Pro russian argument skills.

nah u got it all wrong, it was more like who the fuck are u to judge? :) u just see one side on the subject
most EU countries including germany came to moscow to make a deal now... no one would just say we was wrong and lets forget about everything, because governments don't make mistakes :) well except US when they didn't find nuks in iraq
but u know that if, just an idea for now, EU will become friends with Russia then media will change their opinion and bunch of people like u too :))) would be fun
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 11, 2015, 11:27:36 pm
good god, all this talk of native american genocides.  Please atleast research it a little bit, its not as if we just rounded them up in a fenced in camp and gassed them to death, or used them as slave labor in the frozen wastes of our country.......

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:29:36 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 11:20:44 pm
Well you brought up the Native Americans, i assume you did that for a reason when you keep saying 'you' (meaning me or Xant) kill them 'ALLL' i assume you meant something when you said that. So humour me.

I just want to confirm for my own amusement, it is your impression that the British wiped out the Native Americans is that correct?

And so what, if i went outside and began murdering people what kind of defense would it be if i said; ''You think that's bad, look what the Russians did to Rasputin!''. Would everyone go ''Damn, he's got a good point, let's allow him to keep murdering people''? No (unless Russia really is that different).

This is why the west dislikes Russian. On the one hand we get 'Poor innocent Russia, we arent even doing anything' and at the same time we get 'But if we were doing something it would be your fault' or 'You think this is bad? Back in the year 1576 your country did X!'

amusing u :))) like u got me trapped, in short EUs i said u because EU :)) for specific usa PART, then Brits first, then after independence US but its the same people!
and to be honest first i though u NA, forgot that u played on EU servers, but it applies to English too
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:30:11 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 11, 2015, 11:27:36 pm
good god, all this talk of native american genocides.  Please atleast research it a little bit, its not as if we just rounded them up in a fenced in camp and gassed them to death, or used them as slave labor in the frozen wastes of our country.......

over time :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 11, 2015, 11:30:45 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:30:11 pm
over time :)

i dont follow.......
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:33:19 pm
u killed them or pushed them our over time, with our natives we lived side by side after conflicts and conflicts was small, usually tribes joined russian empire not to get wiped by other bigger tribes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 11, 2015, 11:35:37 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:33:19 pm
u killed them or pushed them our over time, with our natives we lived side by side after conflicts and conflicts was small, usually tribes joined russian empire not to get wiped by other bigger tribes

ya no shit, the same thing happened, we even gave them land to live on, learn your history before you criticize mine, fuck off.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:53:08 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 11:37:51 pm
Who the fuck am i to judge? I'm nobody, but at the same time my country isnt currently in the process of deciding it owns another country to keep forever. If it were I would not support it.

I want to like Russia. I wanted to join the thread and play devil's advocate when i saw it was just an 'I hate Russia' circlejerk. But when exposed to the opinions of every Russian i've ever spoken too, i decide that there really is nothing to defend.

I'd like to see EU become friends with a responsible and moderate Russia. I'd not like to see EU appease an aggressive expansionistic Russia.

Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 11, 2015, 11:35:37 pm
ya no shit, the same thing happened, we even gave them land to live on, learn your history before you criticize mine, fuck off.

omg u so generous u gave them land to live on, in their own land, in some reservations
i did learn russian history, we didn't have to give natives land to live on :)) because we never moved them anywhere, they stayed where they was :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 12:02:57 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:53:08 pm
omg u so generous u gave them land to live on, in their own land, in some reservations
i did learn russian history, we didn't have to give natives land to live on :)) because we never moved them anywhere, they stayed where they was :)

you never gave them land because you butchered them all, and enslaved people in concentration camps, very generous.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 12:07:35 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 11, 2015, 11:37:51 pm
Who the fuck am i to judge? I'm nobody, but at the same time my country isnt currently in the process of deciding it owns another country to keep forever. If it were I would not support it.

I want to like Russia. I wanted to join the thread and play devil's advocate when i saw it was just an 'I hate Russia' circlejerk. But when exposed to the opinions of every Russian i've ever spoken too, i decide that there really is nothing to defend.

I'd like to see EU become friends with a responsible and moderate Russia. I'd not like to see EU appease an aggressive expansionistic Russia.

ur own media will convince u of that easily after u will see that russian not going to take anything. Crimea is different u don't understand what it is for russia and what people live there. As i said visit it, ask ppl around.
I said before if russia would just go and attack Litva or Estonia or Latvia or xants beloved Finland i would take completely different side.
There might be one more issue with my country, but since situation changing a bit, there is hope that our country won't be forced to join Romania or start war with transistria.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 12:11:03 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:14:25 pm
aren't we playing competition of who's been worse for the last 20 posts or so?
about double standards? When everything u do is great and everything someone else does is bad?

to be honest xant just forget, i wasn't meant to get in discussion with u, ur just upset and complete idiot
Only a Russian could be as dumb as you. What happened hundreds of years ago has nothing to do with those alive today. WW2 is not that far back and the legacies still live on; as is evident from your retarded "victory parades" that you think are so important. Russia is the only country that is still acting like it's 1942. Your little pea brain is too small to understand this is the reason people speak of history, of course, so you fall back to stage 3 of Russianism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 12:27:00 am
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 12:02:57 am
you never gave them land because you butchered them all, and enslaved people in concentration camps, very generous.

strange information :) we still talking about natives? those guys was part of the empire far before soviet union. If u talking about prisoners of war, then yes some of the worst was sent in syberia, a bit harsh that for so long. But u know how the Jews was happy after they being freed from camps and those who was burning them alive end up in camps for their crimes?
However there was opposition to communism, it was bad that they become political prisoners, i agree bad things happened u shouldn't enforce ur ideology on others.
but but but the scale :)
but again double standards and scale
u can't compare what u did to ur natives with what russians did to their, same as u can't compare prison camps with mostly war criminals and auschwitz and other natzi camps that purpose was to kill people on daily basis
During World War II (1939-45), more than 1 million people, by some accounts, lost their lives at Auschwitz. In January 1945, with the Soviet army approaching, chocolate chip cookie officials ordered the camp abandoned and sent an estimated 60,000 prisoners on a forced march to other locations.
SCALE

i'm not saying that something is bad and other isn't - i agreed on those bad actions, but killing 1 man or killing hundreds and also for what reasons MATTERS.
US/EU messing up with middle east all countries u've been to are fucked!!!!! There is many of them not just one. Maybe u need tours, go to iraq, yemen, egypt, lybia, and then visit crimea and compare

 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 12:30:13 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 12, 2015, 12:07:58 am
Ignore him he's going through stage 3.

Needs to cope with the current state of his country by badmouthing centuries-old acts of other countries, acts that a simple wikipedia search can largely disprove.

Again, congrats on Russia for nearly catching up with how the rest of Europe and America were in the 1800s, maybe in 200 years time you'll be talking about how you're nearly as good as Britain and the US in the year 2000.

u keep going to the same statement over and over, i've replied to u on what i think of ukraine, u not happy? want more recent events then what happened in Kosovo from ur point of view? what happens in middle east? where Taliban and ISIS came from? Is there any middle easy country that is back to half of what it was after NA/EU involvement?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 12, 2015, 12:38:44 am
Kosovo is old news Nebun. Current situation is in FYR Macedonia, where Albanian insurgents are trying to do the same they did on Kosovo. Interesting is that Macedonia is weakest and most unstable of countries where new Russian gas-pipe will be going through. Day prior to events in Macedonia, USA was doing their best to convince Greece and others to say no to Russia.

This is not thread for it, but people were discussing immigrants. Why they are immigrants in Europe? Because they fled their home countries because of war. Who creates those wars? Europe? Russia? China?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 12:39:39 am
Quote from: Xant on May 12, 2015, 12:11:03 am
Only a Russian could be as dumb as you. What happened hundreds of years ago has nothing to do with those alive today. WW2 is not that far back and the legacies still live on; as is evident from your retarded "victory parades" that you think are so important. Russia is the only country that is still acting like it's 1942. Your little pea brain is too small to understand this is the reason people speak of history, of course, so you fall back to stage 3 of Russianism.

hm should i go to ur level and insult all ur nation, but then i don't know all finish people to make such statements, so i guess i will leave it at u being stupid shit
its also fun that u pick up heskey concept of " whats the point for us talking about the past, what does it have to do with anything" like u haven't participated or asked questions that also lead to this
thats because ur brain is like a little hairy nut - can't really work very well
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on May 12, 2015, 12:47:41 am
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 11, 2015, 11:35:37 pm
ya no shit, the same thing happened, we even gave them land to live on, learn your history before you criticize mine, fuck off.

well, it was their land before.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 12:54:13 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 12:30:13 am
u keep going to the same statement over and over, i've replied to u on what i think of ukraine, u not happy? want more recent events then what happened in Kosovo from ur point of view? what happens in middle east? where Taliban and ISIS came from? Is there any middle easy country that is back to half of what it was after NA/EU involvement?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:01:19 am
Quote from: Leshma on May 12, 2015, 12:38:44 am
Kosovo is old news Nebun. Current situation is in FYR Macedonia, where Albanian insurgents are trying to do the same they did on Kosovo. Interesting is that Macedonia is weakest and most unstable of countries where new Russian gas-pipe will be going through. Day prior to events in Macedonia, USA was doing their best to convince Greece and others to say no to Russia.

This is not thread for it, but people were discussing immigrants. Why they are immigrants in Europe? Because they fled their home countries because of war. Who creates those wars? Europe? Russia? China?
yes i've read about issues in Macedonia, but it hasn't finished yet. 
About Gas pipe its funny, i follow that one. Its just not only Greece interested in this but i believe hungary, italy and serbia also in need of this gas pipe. They all signed their own little deals now :) So i doubt that Greece will back off so as other countries. The pipe will also go to Egypt after. Maybe Austria and Czech Rep interested in pipe line too, otherwise why they visited Moscow and made some deals.
Was there any recent news of Merkel also demanding to cancel the pipe? I haven't found anything :)

In Moldova some migrate to italy and more go to russia.
Since for ukrainians borders with EU closed, most go to russia. There is really LOTS of ukrainians in russia now.

Talking about wars, ukraine had a chance to change things peacefully like Moldovians did at first and i hope stays that way. We had little riot organised by ex moldovian us sent banker. He was like sponsor, in poor country u don't need much money to bribe ppl :) And i guess no one needed war here, oposition give up, and we had temp president.
He didn't outlaw russian language and made fascists heroes, he simply changing things slowly. Closing russian schools at slow pace, adding more hours of romanian language in schools and unis. Basically moving things slowly, which is the right way of doing it!!!!! So i guess they could make same thing in Ukraine without fanatism!

But now our new president such an idiot - he gave highest military medal to ex president of Romania, who said moldova doesn't exist and there is no such country when he was president. Maybe US promised us to romania :)
In Ukraine right from the start i don't see any desire for peace, until now.
I might be wrong on this right now, because its too soon to say, but to me US maybe interested for Ukraine to continue war, while EU changed their mind and forcing ukraine to stop.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 01:11:36 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 12:27:00 am
strange information :) we still talking about natives? those guys was part of the empire far before soviet union. If u talking about prisoners of war, then yes some of the worst was sent in syberia, a bit harsh that for so long. <...bullshitmuch...>
Check you history. War prisoners were a MINORITY of those sent to Siberia, instead the upper/middle class, the learned and the self conscious were sent, to diminish and destroy any seeds of nations under the soviet rule. One could argue, that this, by its effect, was as bad as genocide, but you will never read any similar comparison in your history "books" because its "blasphemy".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:22:18 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 01:11:36 am
Check you history. War prisoners were a MINORITY of those sent to Siberia, instead the upper/middle class, the learned and the self conscious were sent, to diminish and destroy any seeds of nations under the soviet rule. One could argue, that this, by its effect, was as bad as genocide, but you will never read any similar comparison in your history "books" because its "blasphemy".

thats why xant we still talk about history
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:17:33 am
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 11, 2015, 11:35:37 pm
ya no shit, the same thing happened, we even gave them land to live on, learn your history before you criticize mine, fuck off.

"we even gave them land to live on" this part is just gold, thank you! honestly! I'm sure natives was as grateful as I am to u right now.
It can go on tshirt or as a car sticker. Or even better as a slogan for Hillary Clinton election. This can work with immigrants she so found of right now, can be applied to natives as u perfectly did, and to slavery issue, just to remind them to be grateful. Or in soviet union, DAMN opposition again, we even gave them land to live on......... in syberia.
its just great for everything 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 02:21:11 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:22:18 am
thats why xant we still talk about history
What, because you managed to draw some people in with your red herring? Yes, exactly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 06:04:56 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 11, 2015, 11:24:57 pm
nah u got it all wrong, it was more like who the fuck are u to judge? :) u just see one side on the subject
most EU countries including germany came to moscow to make a deal now... no one would just say we was wrong and lets forget about everything, because governments don't make mistakes :) well except US when they didn't find nuks in iraq
but u know that if, just an idea for now, EU will become friends with Russia then media will change their opinion and bunch of people like u too :))) would be fun

No, the opinion of Russia will not change. Its not the media that ruins Russias image its Russia itself. Really think about it. Italy and Greece are thinking about talking with Russia now, when they are suffering their biggest economic crysis. They didnt even say a single thing to them before. All countries that befriend Russia are desperate in deep shit countries. Nobody wants to be friends with Russia, unless they have no better alternatives. And you will find this to be extremely accurate. Even if they will manage to convince EU, they will eventually do something stupid and agressive again and ruin everything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 12, 2015, 09:28:48 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 12, 2015, 07:43:50 am
Maybe if we postpone this conversation until 2200 Nebun and others will be up-to-date on the current-day situation in Europe.
And British and Europeans will declare jihad unto us  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2015, 09:31:33 am
This thread creates physical pain for me while reading. I should just stop but...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 10:22:59 am
Fresh blood in this topic.

Inb4 Nebun adds his name to Tovilist.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 11:01:30 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 10:22:59 am
Fresh blood in this topic.

Inb4 Nebun adds his name to Tovilist.
I'm surprised he is not there already, with the quality shit he produces  :rolleyes:

Meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/597836320665395200

Also - helping russian sheeple to NOT get lost re what the world is saying about them: https://twitter.com/reitschuster/status/597853825588932609
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 12, 2015, 12:00:54 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 11:01:30 am
Meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/597836320665395200
Lol his page is not found on the site says 404. Liked comments:
advisor' from #Georgia is wanted by both #Interpol and #Georgia on numerous accounts
Yarosh is wanted by Interpol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 12:02:20 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 11:01:30 am
I'm surprised he is not there already, with the quality shit he produces  :rolleyes:

Meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/597836320665395200

Also - helping russian sheeple to NOT get lost re what the world is saying about them: https://twitter.com/reitschuster/status/597853825588932609

Quality shity is not the only requirement to get into Tovilist. You also have to keep posting it for a while, over and over again. Butan managed not to get there since he stopped doing it right in time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 12:07:16 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 12, 2015, 12:00:54 pm
Lol his page is not found on the site says 404. Liked comments:
advisor' from #Georgia is wanted by both #Interpol and #Georgia on numerous accounts
Yarosh is wanted by Interpol

Shitface moron, Yarosh is a citizen of Ukraine wanted by Russia for terrorism... on the territory of Ukraine, you can even find it on that page. Because Kiev Junta, fascists, nаzis and so on. Technically Ukrainian police can put Vladimir Putin on that page.

Unlike that guy, who is a citizen of Russia and wanted by Russian Police.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 12:08:06 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 12:02:20 pm
Quality shity is not the only requirement to get into Tovilist. You also have to keep posting it for a while, over and over again. Butan managed not to get there since he stopped doing it right in time.
It was a very close call
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 12, 2015, 12:35:31 pm
'Volunteers' are quitting the army after being ordered into Ukraine and the Nemtsov Report released today claims 220 Russian soldiers died in Ukraine since the conflict began.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/nemtsov-report-details-human-and-financial-costs-of-war-in-ukraine/520571.html
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 12:55:09 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 12:07:16 pm
Shitface moron, Yarosh is a citizen of Ukraine wanted by Russia for terrorism... on the territory of Ukraine, you can even find it on that page. Because Kiev Junta, fascists, nаzis and so on. Technically Ukrainian police can put Vladimir Putin on that page.

Unlike that guy, who is a citizen of Russia and wanted by Russian Police.
Stupid Bydlo, that was comments from the page  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 12:59:43 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 12, 2015, 12:00:54 pm
Yarosh is wanted by Interpol

That reminds me that a lot of people are also pissed at Russia for basically abusing the Interpol to catch their political opponents.

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21589901-cross-border-policing-can-be-political-rogue-states
http://lawandorderinrussia.org/2015/interpol-definitively-rejects-russia-s-request-to-issue-an-international-arrest-warrant-for-bill-browder/

Theres fuckton of these cases.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2015, 01:23:49 pm
Quote
Dear reader,

Due to the increasing number of users engaging in personal attacks, spam, trolling and abusive comments, we are no longer able to host our forum as a site for constructive and intelligent debate.

It is with regret, therefore, that we have found ourselves forced to suspend the commenting function on our articles.

The Moscow Times remains committed to the principle of public debate and hopes to welcome you to a new, constructive forum in the future.

Regards,

The Moscow Times
Oh well, all Western propogondo!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 12, 2015, 01:30:56 pm
Oh the topic of the WW2 and WW1.

If it wasn't for RUSSIAN actions just before WW1 (Russian back separatists killed Austrian Arch-Duke) WW1 would not have "really" gone off. Then, in '39 Russia was AGAIN an aggressor in starting the war.

Fun Fact: Most American Generals wanted to attack the Russians because of their early involvement in the war and the subsequent expected results of what would happen after, but the US was happy to end the war with some Nuclear Bombs and say: "Enough!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:33:41 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 12, 2015, 12:35:31 pm
'Volunteers' are quitting the army after being ordered into Ukraine and the Nemtsov Report released today claims 220 Russian soldiers died in Ukraine since the conflict began.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/nemtsov-report-details-human-and-financial-costs-of-war-in-ukraine/520571.html

DEAD END! :) if thats where u get ur info from there is nothing to talk about, they forgot to mention proofs, and was it soldiers or volunteers, was them russian or DNR? i know that there are volunteers and there is or was squad from chechnia and that squad might have been sent by their lider, because he just does whatever the fuck he wants, but if there would be regular russian army in DNG then everything would end in 1 day.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:39:13 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 12, 2015, 07:43:50 am
If the Nazis had won, would modern-day Russia really be that different? Totalitarian, aggressive expansion, flat-out denial and veil of propaganda.

Talk about wasting your lives, gg veterans.

But sure Russia can be proud that it's nearly as good today, in the year 2015, as one of the most morally devoid periods in British, European, and Western history. Maybe if we postpone this conversation until 2200 Nebun and others will be up-to-date on the current-day situation in Europe.

u must be joking right? they would probably slaughter all the brits too! U should read some of the einsteins ideas on the subject of other nations! As for russia it was suppose to be reduced to minimum population for easier management and then put to slavery.

UPDATE: STUPID IDIOT
with such view on the subject i guess russia is better off to ally with all except EU and US
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 01:51:21 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:33:41 pm
DEAD END! :) if thats where u get ur info from there is nothing to talk about, they forgot to mention proofs, and was it soldiers or volunteers, was them russian or DNR? i know that there are volunteers and there is or was squad from chechnia and that squad might have been sent by their lider, because he just does whatever the fuck he wants, but if there would be regular russian army in DNG then everything would end in 1 day.
End in one day HOW? russia would annex another part of Ukraine? What if russias goal is not "end in 1 day", but keep shit happening, so that Ukraine would not have peace - would it make sense to send "just enough" weapons, people and bullshit over the media to keep the flame burning? Y'aknow... Moldova/Georgia style?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:57:54 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 12, 2015, 01:44:00 pm
Someone else mentions a failure or Russia and for the first time in the last 20 pages you use the word 'proof', suddenly your high journalistic standards wont allow for you to accept this claim without strong hard evidence to back it up. Funny how that word didn't matter to you when you were trying to derail and talk about other country's actions centuries ago.

I have read, apparently he considered us sufficiently Germanic and wanted to make Oxford the capital of England. And i'm not saying I wish he'd won the war, i'm saying the war in eastern Europe didn't really matter considering both Germany and Russia had a megalomaniac in charge content to butcher millions of their own people. If they'd won in the East and taken Russia (sucks for you non-germanics tho), would Russia 70 years later in 2015 really be so different from how it is now? Tbh it'd probably have a better economy.

so sad maybe thats why so many NEO chocolate chip cookieS this days
just a ton of bullshit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:05:12 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 01:51:21 pm
End in one day HOW? russia would annex another part of Ukraine? What if russias goal is not "end in 1 day", but keep shit happening, so that Ukraine would not have peace - would it make sense to send "just enough" weapons, people and bullshit over the media to keep the flame burning? Y'aknow... Moldova/Georgia style?
nah maybe ur country next time :)

on the other hand maybe Heskey should be more worried of his own country :)
"Oil find near Gatwick airport boosts UK's oil production hopes" http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/09/uk-britain-oil-gatwick-idUKKBN0N00JU20150409
US may find u not democratic enough and decide to get involved :))))

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:09:53 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 12, 2015, 02:02:36 pm
Since you're so big on 'proof' all of a sudden this page then, explain how you have decided that Hitler would have committed genocide against the people of England. I assume you have a source for this, rather than your own half-baked musings.

Bearing in mind that:
1. Prisoners or war from the UK were largely well-treated as expected for the time, unlike the Nazi policy towards Russian 'prisoners'.
2. Going by race-theory of the time, it was thought back in the 1940s that the population of England was nearly entirely descended from Germanic Anglo-Saxons who migrated between the years 400-500ish AD. That theory was far more prevalent then than it is now.

So when you call something 'a ton of bullshit', perhaps you would care to share your source that says otherwise, because if you don't then you may accidentally create the impression that you're just talking out of your ass.

then even by ur own words "unlike the Nazi policy towards Russian 'prisoners'." where would that be any better for russians in a long run? Mostly policy towards russian prisoners/ ah and not only prisoners was to kill everyone. Maybe thats why 20 mil of population died comparing to 7 mil of military deaths. Yes germans had few camps for russians, in some they killed them daily, because was too difficult to kill all in one day, and other was labor camps, when they filled up no more prisoners needed, if possible all killed on sight.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:11:16 pm
I think i get ur concept. For the sake of better economy in russian lands chocolate chip cookie had to kill all of them and repopulate with their own and friends? sounds like a shitty deal for russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 02:16:41 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:05:12 pm
nah maybe ur country next time :)

on the other hand maybe Heskey should be more worried of his own country :)
"Oil find near Gatwick airport boosts UK's oil production hopes" http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/09/uk-britain-oil-gatwick-idUKKBN0N00JU20150409
US may find u not democratic enough and decide to get involved :))))
You do know that there are other tools in your russian toolbox, you don't have to keep using #3 ALL  the time
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:19:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 12, 2015, 02:16:41 pm
You do know that there are other tools in your russian toolbox, you don't have to keep using #3 ALL  the time

its interesting that u keep finding it funny :)
go ask ur mom to let u play in the garden, its fun too, but don't eat shit from the ground, people might find out that u stupid
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:20:40 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 12, 2015, 02:18:19 pm
Exactly, i'm under no delusions of what the fate of Eastern Europeans would be under Hitler, what i'm disputing is that actual sentence you said:

u must be joking right? they would probably slaughter all the brits too! U should read some of the einsteins ideas on the subject of other nations!

He had no plans to slaughter all the Brits, he'd be a monster of a dictator and kill all our minorities but we were still well within his racial scope if you're sticking with *that* particular accusation.

Sounds like a pretty great deal for everyone else though

i said probably, no strong nation would easily submit, the only way they would be able to do it is with murder
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:24:58 pm
or i'm mistaken on strong nations

its just has been habit of russia not to submit, well after the mongols
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:40:43 pm
other countries was given a choice before they got conquered? I'm not talking about those that joined willingly.
russia would not submit to occupation even if they given choice, different mentality
if there is no question about occupation then i guess it could come to deals, like in many wars with ottoman empire, and mongols, afganistan, rus jap war, war with sweeds and other in europe.
to be honest i don't think that british or US would give up as easy as other eu countries if they would be given a choice, i know some countries sizes matter, but some almost didn't put up a fight at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 02:59:13 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:05:12 pm
nah maybe ur country next time :)
<...bs...>
Wannabe Vovka.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 12, 2015, 03:02:57 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 12, 2015, 01:30:56 pm
Oh the topic of the WW2 and WW1.

If it wasn't for RUSSIAN actions just before WW1 (Russian back separatists killed Austrian Arch-Duke) WW1 would not have "really" gone off. Then, in '39 Russia was AGAIN an aggressor in starting the war.

Fun Fact: Most American Generals wanted to attack the Russians because of their early involvement in the war and the subsequent expected results of what would happen after, but the US was happy to end the war with some Nuclear Bombs and say: "Enough!"

Fun Fact: American public education system is garbage. Thanks for reminding us.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 12, 2015, 03:12:00 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 01:33:41 pm
DEAD END! :) if thats where u get ur info from there is nothing to talk about, they forgot to mention proofs, and was it soldiers or volunteers, was them russian or DNR? i know that there are volunteers and there is or was squad from chechnia and that squad might have been sent by their lider, because he just does whatever the fuck he wants, but if there would be regular russian army in DNG then everything would end in 1 day.

God you are actually thick, this was even reported on reuters, the website you just linked. Really no point discussing with you if you refuse to listen to other points of view and continue to stick your head in the sand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 03:29:35 pm
I've read a lot in US, EU, Ukrainian and Russian media, but main source is just finding less popular videos on u tube or international info on brics or other financial sites, also i watched all meetings with EU representatives that talked to putin, they all said their opinion in every speach and so on, i consider everything
there is just a lot of unconfirmed and not logical bullshit. U think completely one sided.
otherwise i wouldn't agree earlier that both sides shooting each other while there is a cease fire in effect, i've seen lots of videos back then when DNR artillery guy was discussing who is shooting and where from, and he said and its even on video they being shoot at and they also shoot.
there also was a situation unconfirmed, where russian artillery shoot at UKRs from the border of UKR and RUS, some regular ppl who lived near by said yes, some said no, so probably more yes then no, it was one time
but when UKRS crossed russian border everyone said no it never happened, or shoot border road block, west also said it never happend and that only DNR provoking and shooting UKR, this is all onesided bullshit.
and yes, how about Odessa? people burned themseves in building? u really believe that?
watch the videos, not popular of just whats happening, and not only those that u like but all of them, then maybe u will form proper opinion
ah yes u don't know their language so i guess u will never find out
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 03:36:36 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 12, 2015, 03:02:57 pm
Fun Fact: American public education system is garbage. Thanks for reminding us.

Fun Fact: youre still a cunt that nobody wants to listen to or hear from, crawl back into your third world country shit hole and cry about Armenians or something.  Thanks for reminding us youre still alive, wish you werent. 

With love,
Signed Blitz



This whole argument shit with the ruskies is futile, it goes nowhere.  They claim they have some sort of broad all seeing fucking eyes, unbiased and all knowing from the obscure websites and youtube videos they watch, only picking granules of information from the west or east "propaganda news".  Then come in here and shoot shit at the EU/NA community and tell us how chest pounding and intelligent the Russians are and how wrong and one sided we are. 

Just think about it, the whole world thinks you are wrong, but only you believe you are right.  Maybe you should truly look at it from the other side, maybe using your superior brain mass and eyes would give you the advantage.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 12, 2015, 03:43:09 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 12, 2015, 03:12:00 pm
God you are actually thick, this was even reported on reuters, the website you just linked. Really no point discussing with you if you refuse to listen to other points of view and continue to stick your head in the sand.
Lol it's not "Nemcov report" he did not write and did not even started write it before his dead, everything was in the idea stage. http://www.putin-itogi.ru/cp/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Putin.Voina_.pdf
They called it the "Report of the independent experts" have not read to the end. but Article There is not a handwritten record Nemtsov, except for one available on the Internet (the death of 17 Marines). Everything else is taken from the Internet, questioning prisoners tankers, burnt Buryat and so on.

Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 03:36:36 pm
Fun Fact: youre still a cunt that nobody wants to listen to or hear from, crawl back into your third world country shit hole and cry about Armenians or something.  Thanks for reminding us youre still alive, wish you werent. 
With love,
Signed Blitz
Go and visit your Indians friends , remind them how merciful were your ancestors that gave them the land on which they live now. 
Then you can go to your nigga friends and remind them who freed them from slavery.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 12, 2015, 03:54:57 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 03:36:36 pm
Just think about it, the whole world thinks you are wrong, but only you believe you are right.  Maybe you should truly look at it from the other side, maybe using your superior brain mass and eyes would give you the advantage.
Well, why americans think that their opinion is the whole world's one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 03:58:32 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 12, 2015, 03:43:09 pm
Go and visit your Indians friends , remind them how merciful were your ancestors that gave them the land on which they live now. 
Then you can go to your nigga friends and remind them who freed them from slavery.

The Russian conquest of Siberia began in July 1580 when some 540 Cossacks under Yermak Timofeyevich invaded the territory of the Voguls, subjects to Küçüm, the Khan of Siberia. They were accompanied by 300 Lithuanian and German slave laborers, whom the Stroganovs had purchased from the Tsar. Throughout 1581, this force traversed the territory known as Yugra and subdued Vogul and Ostyak towns. At this time, they also captured a tax collector of Küçüm.

The Russian conquest of Siberia was accompanied by massacres due to indigenous resistance to colonization by the Russian Cossacks, who savagely crushed the natives. At the hands of people like Vasilii Poyarkov in 1645 and Yerofei Khabarov in 1650 some peoples like the Daur were slaughtered by the Russians to the extent that it is considered genocide. 8,000 out of a previously 20,000 strong population in Kamchatka remained after being subjected to half a century of Cossacks slaughter. The Daurs initially deserted their villages since they heard about the cruelty of the Russians the first time Khabarov came. The second time he came, the Daurs decided to do battle against the Russians instead but were slaughtered by Russian guns. In the 17th century, indigenous peoples of the Amur region were attacked by Russians who came to be known as "red-beards". The Russian Cossacks were named luocha (羅剎), after Demons found in Buddhist mythology, by the Amur natives because of their cruelty towards them, who were subjects of the Qing dynasty during the Sino–Russian border conflicts.

In the 1640s the Yakuts were subjected to slaughters during the Russian advance into their land near the Lena river, and on Kamchatka in the 1690s the Koryak, Kamchadals, and Chukchi were also subjected to slaughters by the Russians. When the Russians did not obtain the demanded amount of yasak from the natives, the Governor of Yakutsk, Piotr Golovin, who was a Cossack, used meat hooks to hang the native men. In the Lena basin, 70% of the Yakut population died within 40 years, and rape and enslavement were used against native women and children in order to force the natives to pay the Yasak.

After the Russian defeat in 1729 at Chukchi hands, the Russian commander Major Pavlutskiy was responsible for the Russian war against the Chukchi and the mass slaughters and enslavement of Chukchi women and children in 1730-31, but his cruelty only made the Chukchis fight more fiercely. A genocide of the Chukchis and Koraks was ordered by Empress Elizabeth in 1742 to totally expel them from their native lands and erase their culture through war. The command was that the natives be "totally extirpated" with Pavlutskiy leading again in this war from 1744-47 in which he led to the Cossacks "with the help of Almighty God and to the good fortune of Her Imperial Highness", to slaughter the Chukchi men and enslave their women and children as booty. However the Chukchi ended this campaign and forced them to give up by killing Pavlitskiy and decapitating him. The Russians were also launching wars and slaughters against the Koraks in 1744 and 1753-4. After the Russians tried to force the natives to convert to Christianity, the different native peoples like the Koraks, Chukchis, Itelmens, and Yukagirs all united to drive the Russians out of their land in the 1740s, culminating in the assault on Nizhnekamchatsk fort in 1746. Kamchatka today is European in demographics and culture with only 2.5% of it being native, around 10,000 from a previous number of 150,000, due to the mass slaughters by the Cossacks after its annexation in 1697 of the Itelmen and Koryaks throughout the first decades of Russian rule. The genocide by the Russian Cossacks devastated the native peoples of Kamchatka and exterminated much of their population. In addition to committing genocide the Cossacks also devastated the wildlife by slaughtering massive amounts of animals for fur. 90% of the Kamchadals and half of the Vogules were killed from the eighteenth to nineteenth centuries and the rapid genocide of the indigenous population led to entire ethnic groups being entirely wiped out, with around 12 exterminated groups which could be named by Nikolai Iadrintsev as of 1882. Much of the slaughter was brought on by the fur trade.


But but, but wait, dirty Americans kill redmans! they steal their land, dirty Americans worse then Russia, Russia din do nuffin!

Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 12, 2015, 03:54:57 pm
Well, why americans think that their opinion is the whole world's one.

we dont?  where do you guys get this shit from.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 04:02:51 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 03:36:36 pm
Fun Fact: youre still a cunt that nobody wants to listen to or hear from, crawl back into your third world country shit hole and cry about Armenians or something.  Thanks for reminding us youre still alive, wish you werent. 

With love,
Signed Blitz



This whole argument shit with the ruskies is futile, it goes nowhere.  They claim they have some sort of broad all seeing fucking eyes, unbiased and all knowing from the obscure websites and youtube videos they watch, only picking granules of information from the west or east "propaganda news".  Then come in here and shoot shit at the EU/NA community and tell us how chest pounding and intelligent the Russians are and how wrong and one sided we are. 

Just think about it, the whole world thinks you are wrong, but only you believe you are right.  Maybe you should truly look at it from the other side, maybe using your superior brain mass and eyes would give you the advantage.

haha :)))) the whole world thinks we are wrong? Chech president does't he is neutral, And supporters: Greece, Russia, China, India, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Egypt, almost all Asian East, Ckazakhstan, Belarus, Armenia etc etc etc  :) population wise - more then u :)

24 leaders came to parade in Moscow, a lot came after or before parade all given their regards. Not saying that all of this who came supporting russia side, because even Jhon Kerry arrived today laying flowers and stuff https://youtu.be/28vBxzO56RQ?t=37 (not the best source but i doubt its video montage :)))) this is the only place i found it at, maybe later today will be in CNN, or wait maybe they won't show it


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 04:11:42 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 04:02:51 pm
haha :)))) the whole world thinks we are wrong? Chech president does't he is neutral, And supporters: Greece, Russia, China, India, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Egypt, almost all Asian East, Ckazakhstan, Belarus, Armenia etc etc etc  :) population wise - more then u :)

24 leaders came to parade in Moscow, a lot came after or before parade all given their regards. Not saying that all of this who came supporting russia side, because even Jhon Kerry arrived today laying flowers and stuff https://youtu.be/28vBxzO56RQ?t=37 (not the best source but i doubt its video montage :)))) this is the only place i found it at, maybe later today will be in CNN, or wait maybe they won't show it

That parade has a lot to do with this thread title.  Not to mention 80% of the countries you just listed are all directly under the influence of Russia......Come on, do better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 04:13:16 pm
interesting, now read the alternative detailed history https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4_%D0%95%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0

use google translate or learn russian, or better check work of Karamzin its in all russian history, and numbers u have are wired and without details
they didn't wipe population and didn't make them move out, they did integrate this nations into empire, leaving them where they are... if u go there today u will see that they are still there, apart from lots of them moving to moscow :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 04:17:17 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 04:11:42 pm
That parade has a lot to do with this thread title.  Not to mention 80% of the countries you just listed are all directly under the influence of Russia......Come on, do better.
Under the influence is a good term :)) Maybe just all of those countries fed up with US politics?
What about countries under influence of USA?

and to be honest a lot bigger or minimum partner role played by China. Their economy is way more influential. And india, brasil, south africa and other asian nations just want to live better. Without US monopoly on all the good stuff
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Shemaforash on May 12, 2015, 04:39:16 pm
i saw it happen
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 12, 2015, 04:43:04 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on May 12, 2015, 03:36:36 pm
Fun Fact: youre still a cunt that nobody wants to listen to or hear from, crawl back into your third world country shit hole and cry about Armenians or something.  Thanks for reminding us youre still alive, wish you werent. 

With love,
Signed Blitz

Here comes salty redneck. Dude, what he wrote is completely wrong and who to blame for his piss poor knowledge other than education system. But that could be wrong, if I recall right he was home schooled. That explains thing or two...

Anyway, Austrian Arch Duke was killed by Bosnian youth organization which fought for freedom. Prior to those events, Turks were purged from Balkans and countries that were under Ottoman influence became fully independent. Bosnia was under Austrian protectorate and that is why they killed Arch Duke. Germans of course, used that to start a war because they needed war at that time to fix their shitty economy (Germans always fight wars when in crisis, just like Americans).

But to be perfectly honest with you, I would prefer Arch-Duke wasn't assassinated because I would be Austrian born citizen :wink:

Shame you guys spilled that tea centuries ago, you could be witty, interesting and educated people like Brits, unlike fat, ignorant slobs you truly are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 04:55:14 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 04:17:17 pm
and to be honest a lot bigger or minimum partner role played by China. Their economy is way more influential. And india, brasil, south africa and other asian nations just want to live better. Without US monopoly on all the good stuff

Than they can build and offer better stuff themselves. The US monopoly on "all the good stuff" did not happen by force, you idiot. The US has just made and sold everything overseas without any real competition for a really long time. No offence but Russia and China's products have always lacked the marketingskills USA-s products have had, which is why they havent really caught on outside of their origincountries.

Why I think you are an idiot Nebun is you think that CIA or illuminati bullcrap is behind this. That someone planned and created this. This monopoly happened totally naturally. Its nobody's fault Russia and China cant market and sell its products aswell as USA does it. You cant argue with the facts. For example the american movie- and technologyindustry eclipses everybody else. And it will probably continue to do so for some time.

And its not usa-s monopolies fault that India, Brazil , South-Africa and other asian countries cant live better. What are you an absolute retard? India, Brazil and South-Africa have fuckton of social problems that are totally unrelated in any way to USA. Especially India. How the fuck do you think you can provide a good and equal life to all in a country with god damn 1,2 billion people. Its impossible. And how is USA related? The marines and CIA stole all of Indias condoms? :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 05:06:01 pm
illuminati? ever mentioned them?

go back and find!! i wrote at list 2 times how it happened in moldova, and its not a guess or opinion its a fact!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 05:07:08 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:19:25 pm
its interesting that u keep finding it funny :)
go ask ur mom to let u play in the garden, its fun too, but don't eat shit from the ground, people might find out that u stupid
It isn't funny, it's kind of sad and pathetic at the same time that you're exactly like a retarded Russian stereotype and keep acting like it even after it's been pointed out. It takes a special level of Russianism to not understand that.

Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 02:24:58 pm
or i'm mistaken on strong nations

its just has been habit of russia not to submit, well after the mongols
Mongols>Russians confirmed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 05:12:11 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 12, 2015, 05:07:08 pm
Mongols>Russians confirmed.
70% of mongols can speak russian, they have russian alphabet, they took many from russian culture.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 05:12:46 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 05:06:01 pm
illuminati? ever mentioned them?

go back and find!! i wrote at list 2 times how it happened in moldova, and its not a guess or opinion its a fact!


Blaming USA for a worldwide conspiracy monopoly is basically like blaming Illuminati or lizardaliens. Its equally stupid...

Once again its nobody's fault you shits are totally incompentent compared to the US in selling your own goods overseas or even in your own country. Its free marketing, its got its minuses, just like everything in the world. If you dont like it, get communism or fascism and learn what total poverty really means.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2015, 05:15:19 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 04:13:16 pm
interesting, now read the alternative detailed history https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4_%D0%95%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0

use google translate or learn russian, or better check work of Karamzin its in all russian history, and numbers u have are wired and without details
they didn't wipe population and didn't make them move out, they did integrate this nations into empire, leaving them where they are... if u go there today u will see that they are still there, apart from lots of them moving to moscow :)
dafuq?

If I'd quote a shady German historian on his book "Germans dun nuffin wrong! Holocaust is not passiert!" - everyone would laugh at me, call me a fucking retard and rightly so.

You quote a free-to-edit-for-everyone russian wiki page where it says "Russians dun nuffin wrong!" and expect us to not laugh at you, call you a retard?
Lemme guess, you too have a silver medal and a red diploma?
Fucking delusional...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 05:15:23 pm
btw i understand u don't have to believe to me about Moldova
i know different circles of people here, and nobody didn't mind and fell for this shit that we will be better of with EU and i also fell for it... on personal level its suits me, but regular population is fucked... only people that are happy are those who want to migrate to other eu countries.
i know who came to change government and how, and his meets with old frineds and openly talking with them about situation, looking for supporters
for u its only my words but don't give me that "False conspiracy" shit, who u trying to convince? I'm here, i see all this shit
so sit in ur country and think whatever the fuck u want
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 05:18:50 pm
Quote from: Molly on May 12, 2015, 05:15:19 pm
dafuq?

If I'd quote a shady German historian on his book "Germans dun nuffin wrong! Holocaust is not passiert!" - everyone would laugh at me, call me a fucking retard and rightly so.

You quote a free-to-edit-for-everyone russian wiki page where it says "Russians dun nuffin wrong!" and expect us to not laugh at you, call you a retard?
Lemme guess, you too have a silver medal and a red diploma?
Fucking delusional...
It doesn't say there that they've done nothing wrong.
U don't like wiki read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Karamzin his book, he wrote history up to 1826 officially, it should be enough
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 05:26:28 pm
You didnt really awnser anything i asked and im quessing you arent going to either.  :D

I know about your situation a lot more than you might think Nebun. And what do you think EU actually did to your country? EU is not some overlord alliance, where all moldovas money is going to Berlin and Washington. I dont think you actually fully understand what EU is. Its not a one-way ticket to free money for entire country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 05:40:29 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 05:26:28 pm
You didnt really awnser anything i asked and im quessing you arent going to either.  :D

I know about your situation a lot more than you might think Nebun. And what do you think EU actually did to your country? EU is not some overlord alliance, where all moldovas money is going to Berlin and Washington. I dont think you actually fully understand what EU is. Its not a one-way ticket to free money for entire country.

what a fool :))))))) this just amazing
who said about EU getting any money? we are poor small country nobody would look at us for economic reason, and my years EU didn't
to me its more like strategic move, because ukraine happened after and its on border with russia
for now i'm not entirely sure if we needed for US anymore and new currenly biggest party in moldova is against integrating in europe, and if we not needed anymore maybe we can carefully change everything back while nobody see us :))))
but Romanians have big interests in us so we might get fucked anyway
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 06:25:52 pm
Moldova will never prosper. You are looking for guidance from Russia. You have no chance. No country that ever turned its intrest from West to Russia, ever got richer. Also I got the impression you misunderstood everything I wrote in the last posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 06:34:44 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 05:12:11 pm
70% of mongols can speak russian, they have russian alphabet, they took many from russian culture.
Modern mongols aren't true mongols but yes conquerors often take things from subjugated people
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 12, 2015, 06:44:09 pm
Let's say Moldova joined EU.

First and foremost, probably before lots of money would come your way, there would be requirements.

You would have to change easily exploitable systems in various organizations, (Which is fantastic for Poland for example..) Everything from neutral/anonymous/fair exams as a student, to a certain level of transparency of government,  EU regulations (yes probably some are silly.) Are overall for the good of the entire EU, and many have been tested and proven. Basically changing the systems that the whole country work under into a more fair and democratic one.

Let me guess, nowadays changes are slow, exactly because too many people abuse and benefit from systems partly created to be abused during communist times.

Now the money will start coming, probably for building highways and decent infrastructure. Bringing roads to EU standard, taking something that no one previously cared about to a new level. This will enable efficient trade and create lots of work. You could join EU's countless cultural and financial programs for startups, travel back and forth freely, perhaps begin tourism? From what I can see Moldova is a beautiful country, and it would be extremely cheap to have a vacation there. Perhaps it's a strategic place to place industry, like the brand new HP factory in my Polish city, simply because it's going to be well connected.

Like.. Just fucking look at the eastern european EU countries who didn't fuck it up for some reason. You have to be blind and deaf to not see and hear that they are doing VASTLY better than those countries who are not members. Yes I know your main reference if fucking Romania. But come on, is there a more corrupt people on this planet??

If Moldova would "join" Russia. You would have 10% cheaper gas. Everything else would be a standstill.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on May 12, 2015, 06:48:13 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 12, 2015, 06:44:09 pm
is there a more corrupt people on this planet??

Jews.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 07:19:51 pm
From what ive heard, Moldova has pretty serius Soviet era corruptionissues and peoples votes are being hustled not by progress but by scaring them with things like Romania. Being in EU will not fix all that. Its kinda silly you really thought it could be possible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on May 12, 2015, 07:21:06 pm
Yeah, that doesn't sound like the Baltics in the 90's at all. /sarcasm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on May 12, 2015, 07:25:01 pm
I mean.. it's no longer some theoretical question, "will EU be good for Moldova?"

It's fucking proven again and again and fucking again that it IS good for Eastern Europe.  Just look at those who didn't join.

omfg.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 07:55:51 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 12, 2015, 07:21:06 pm
Yeah, that doesn't sound like the Baltics in the 90's at all. /sarcasm

Yeah, but we were hellbent on fixing it, cause we were just so overjoyed on our independence that we felt obligated to ban and kick everything even remotely Soviet out. Our corruptionissues, organized crime and extreme poverty were basically gone by the time we joined EU, from what we gained even more. Their bullshit was all still present when they joined(I assume, I dont really know). Big suprise nothing changed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 07:59:17 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 12, 2015, 06:44:09 pm
Let's say Moldova joined EU.

First and foremost, probably before lots of money would come your way, there would be requirements.

You would have to change easily exploitable systems in various organizations, (Which is fantastic for Poland for example..) Everything from neutral/anonymous/fair exams as a student, to a certain level of transparency of government,  EU regulations (yes probably some are silly.) Are overall for the good of the entire EU, and many have been tested and proven. Basically changing the systems that the whole country work under into a more fair and democratic one.

Let me guess, nowadays changes are slow, exactly because too many people abuse and benefit from systems partly created to be abused during communist times.

Now the money will start coming, probably for building highways and decent infrastructure. Bringing roads to EU standard, taking something that no one previously cared about to a new level. This will enable efficient trade and create lots of work. You could join EU's countless cultural and financial programs for startups, travel back and forth freely, perhaps begin tourism? From what I can see Moldova is a beautiful country, and it would be extremely cheap to have a vacation there. Perhaps it's a strategic place to place industry, like the brand new HP factory in my Polish city, simply because it's going to be well connected.

Like.. Just fucking look at the eastern european EU countries who didn't fuck it up for some reason. You have to be blind and deaf to not see and hear that they are doing VASTLY better than those countries who are not members. Yes I know your main reference if fucking Romania. But come on, is there a more corrupt people on this planet??

If Moldova would "join" Russia. You would have 10% cheaper gas. Everything else would be a standstill.
all this text is bananas :))) Civilization V type of strategy. Lets get through the points.

First and foremost, probably before lots of money would come your way, there would be requirements.
Before government change we paid off lots of external debts and economy was growing at steady pace each year. We didn't even need to borrow money from anyone. After change our Gov took lots of money from EU/US and nothing happened, nobody knows where they are. Economy worse then ever before

You would have to change easily exploitable systems in various organizations, (Which is fantastic for Poland for example..) Everything from neutral/anonymous/fair exams as a student, to a certain level of transparency of government,  EU regulations (yes probably some are silly.) Are overall for the good of the entire EU, and many have been tested and proven. Basically changing the systems that the whole country work under into a more fair and democratic one.
None of this happened, our EX president stopped stealing money after first few years and started working on improving country, new temporary president supported by EU robbed budget and took on loans, then new president came, robbed off budget and took loans... pension fond robbed/rates gone up.
There was interview few weeks ago, asked pensioners how much they get and what they pay. from 800 to 1200 of current currency is their pay, and winter Heating is 1300 for 1 room appartment. Yes thats only heating! NOTHING ELSE! if i add money required for food or other services - gas, electricity, water, this will triple. AND BEFORE IT WASN'T LIKE THAT
Ur education thing doesn't mean anything, people who want to learn and in shitty conditions they DO, they learn, those who are rich they buy diplomas, thats how it was and thats how it is now. All professionals leave country. We have all the democratic shits with lots of corruption that doesn't really affect economy much, if it does then its very low, except on government level - but those NEW guys just stealing everything.

Let me guess, nowadays changes are slow, exactly because too many people abuse and benefit from systems partly created to be abused during communist times.
what do u know about that? and how come when we switched sides it become multiple times worse?

Now the money will start coming, probably for building highways and decent infrastructure. Bringing roads to EU standard, taking something that no one previously cared about to a new level. This will enable efficient trade and create lots of work.
this is just BOOM, we have normal roads right now, not so perfect as in europe but normal. Well how improving them a little bit more will affect fucking trade? this sounds completely insane. We will rebuild roads to new standard and trade will flow and we somehow become competitive on EU markets where we are forbidden to trade right now! yey... this idea is just worst ever

You could join EU's countless cultural and financial programs for startups,
we would have that with EURO-ASIAN union that would have funding programmes + FREE trade and moving of resources, in environment where we are competitive, and since all EU fucked off from their market in Agriculture we could replace some of it, that was perfect opportunity for us. As i said before 90% of our trade went to Russia. At this point they would just buy everything from us and our business and trade would prosper. You see this is realistic approach.
After our government turned to EU we don't trade with russia anymore. A lot of businesses gone bankrupt, some reduced their capacity for local market, lots of ppl lost their jobs but moved to EU for work. The only realistic improvement for local people in business that can be with EU is if everyone move OUT

travel back and forth freely, perhaps begin tourism? From what I can see Moldova is a beautiful country, and it would be extremely cheap to have a vacation there. Perhaps it's a strategic place to place industry, like the brand new HP factory in my Polish city, simply because it's going to be well connected.
everyone could easily come to moldova without visa before, at any time from any country!! doors was open, nothing happened. Its cheap but u don't spend ur holidays on countries like this, tourism low and i don't see how it could change, no sea, no mountains, same nature as in whole europe, so this is just fantasies. Maybe if LOTS of money invested this place could become a bit more interesting to tourists, but why would u invest in this place if as i said no sea/ mountains and nothing new? Another fail plan.
Our markets filled with ur shit, no new business man can just compete with them. U could build some factories to provide population with work, but EuroAsian union could do the same + most important TRADE!

Like.. Just fucking look at the eastern european EU countries who didn't fuck it up for some reason. You have to be blind and deaf to not see and hear that they are doing VASTLY better than those countries who are not members. Yes I know your main reference if fucking Romania. But come on, is there a more corrupt people on this planet??
Yes moldova more corrupt then romania, but also greece not having much fun, bulgaria too, but at list they got tourism.
Before i thought that it would be better for moldova to be in EU, but when i looked into details and how our business and production suffered, i see more possibilities in sticking with developing countries. Its easier to compete and grow together in economy. Why else india, china, south africa, argentina, brazil grouping up together, yes some politics, but they can easily sell their shit to eachother and develop on more of a equal level

If Moldova would "join" Russia. You would have 10% cheaper gas. Everything else would be a standstill.
Even before i said its not just about gas, and it would probably be as cheap as in Belarus, like 4-5 times cheaper. But also TRADE and being competitive on their market. Instead of just being shopping mall for EU with EU products.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 08:05:55 pm
Da fuck is this man?

Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 07:59:17 pm
Even before i said its not just about gas, and it would probably be as cheap as in Belarus, like 4-5 times cheaper. But also TRADE and being competitive on their market. Instead of just being shopping mall for EU with EU products.

Mall for EU with EU products? :lol: :lol: :lol: What are you 5 years old? Do you have any idea how the economy works? Nebun....this is litterally the most absolutely retarded thing i have ever heard and proves you have absolutely not a single idea how EU works, what it does and what benefits and minuses it brings to your country. You have absolutely no understanding of your own country.

See Nicko? I told you Nebun was stupid and his opinions dont matter. :D

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 08:16:10 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 08:05:55 pm
Da fuck is this man?

Mall for EU with EU products? :lol: :lol: :lol: What are you 5 years old? Do you have any idea how the economy works? Nebun....this is litterally the most absolutely retarded thing i have ever heard and proves you have absolutely not a single idea how EU works, what it does and what benefits and minuses it brings to your country. You have absolutely no understanding of your own country.

See Nicko? I told you Nebun was stupid and his opinions dont matter. :D
With countries with developed production, where they can export products EU works in a different way :)

maybe u just retard to understand
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 08:16:49 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on May 12, 2015, 07:21:06 pm
Yeah, that doesn't sound like the Baltics in the 90's at all. /sarcasm
I can only second that...

After the fall of CCCP, 1990-1997 were WILD years in Lithuania... best source of income for volunteers, who formed the innitial army of Lt was acting as guards for friggin gasoline trucks and oil trains, mafia was RAMPANT, corruption left and right, and yet - every government had one goal - NATO and EU, every government did mistakes, but moved towards that ultimate goal and finally got their shit together. And tadam - one has to go 50km east of Vilnius to see what we left behind and no thank you - that reality of "russian world" sucks donkey balls.

So in the end - you can blame US, jews, mormons, russia, naztees, masons, aliens - the betterment of your country is YOUR business and noone is going to do that for you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 08:17:38 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 08:16:10 pm
With countries with developed production, where they can export products EU works in a different way :)

maybe u just retard to understand
And that development, of products which can be exported to EU happens... MAGICALLY. Go, get some pink diploma in russia, maybe it will help you understand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 08:28:52 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 08:16:10 pm
With countries with developed production, where they can export products EU works in a different way :)

maybe u just retard to understand

What you wrote is absolute idiocracy. Fucking kindergarden children think thats how economy works. If everybody in Moldova is so stupid, than no wonder your country is going to be poor forever.

Pretty much Kuujis was accurate. Baltics were extremely poor and in deep shit in 90s, worse than Moldova atm. We joined EU and we prospered a lot. But we also worked hard. We didnt blame anyone for our poverty. We sided with the West and we gained a lot. If we stayed with Russia we would have still been in poverty and dirt and wouldnt probably even have our own countries anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 09:01:24 pm
Is Nebun ready for Tovilist already?

So far he's like

Quote from: Xant on April 14, 2014, 02:33:57 pm
"olol omg lul i sew pistul much clothe pistool xDDD"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 09:14:23 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 08:05:55 pm
Da fuck is this man?

Mall for EU with EU products? :lol: :lol: :lol: What are you 5 years old? Do you have any idea how the economy works? Nebun....this is litterally the most absolutely retarded thing i have ever heard and proves you have absolutely not a single idea how EU works, what it does and what benefits and minuses it brings to your country. You have absolutely no understanding of your own country.

See Nicko? I told you Nebun was stupid and his opinions dont matter. :D
No, Tibe he says interesting things. Every country(I don't talk about small countries) has the goal to export as much as they can and to import as less as they can. EU has good developed production, so to grow economy up they need new markets and of course they need to protect their markets, because of that USA and EU controlls import to protect selfproduction. It is so easy to understand. And small country like yours will gain if EU will make business in your country. They will invest in your country money, make new places for workers. Export their products to yours. Nobody says that there are only EU products. But this is a goal. And when something bad will happen like a war, your country will suffer too much, because you selfproduction is too small.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 09:19:45 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 08:28:52 pm
What you wrote is absolute idiocracy. Fucking kindergarden children think thats how economy works. If everybody in Moldova is so stupid, than no wonder your country is going to be poor forever.

Pretty much Kuujis was accurate. Baltics were extremely poor and in deep shit in 90s, worse than Moldova atm. We joined EU and we prospered a lot. But we also worked hard. We didnt blame anyone for our poverty. We sided with the West and we gained a lot. If we stayed with Russia we would have still been in poverty and dirt and wouldnt probably even have our own countries anymore.

and what are ur ideas u dumb shit? :) u always say i would explain but i just won't, maybe because u fucking idiot
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 12, 2015, 09:33:44 pm
Quote from: Leshma on May 12, 2015, 04:43:04 pm
Here comes salty redneck. Dude, what he wrote is completely wrong and who to blame for his piss poor knowledge other than education system. But that could be wrong, if I recall right he was home schooled. That explains thing or two...

Anyway, Austrian Arch Duke was killed by Bosnian youth organization which fought for freedom. Prior to those events, Turks were purged from Balkans and countries that were under Ottoman influence became fully independent. Bosnia was under Austrian protectorate and that is why they killed Arch Duke. Germans of course, used that to start a war because they needed war at that time to fix their shitty economy (Germans always fight wars when in crisis, just like Americans).

But to be perfectly honest with you, I would prefer Arch-Duke wasn't assassinated because I would be Austrian born citizen :wink:

Shame you guys spilled that tea centuries ago, you could be witty, interesting and educated people like Brits, unlike fat, ignorant slobs you truly are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria

Serbia was the Antagonist(Bosnian Serb shooter, with 5 Serbian conspirators and a whole lot of Serbian Military support)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria#Aftermath
This letter became known as the July Ultimatum, and Austria-Hungary stated that if Serbia did not accept all of the demands in total within 48 hours, it would recall its ambassador from Serbia. After receiving a telegram of support from Russia, Serbia mobilized its army and responded to the letter by completely accepting point #8 demanding an end to the smuggling of weapons and punishment of the frontier officers who had assisted the assassins and completely accepting point #10 which demanded Serbia report the execution of the required measures as they were completed. Serbia partially accepted, finessed, disingenuously answered or politely rejected elements of the preamble and enumerated demands #1–7 and #9. The shortcomings of Serbia's response were published by Austria-Hungary. Austria-Hungary responded by breaking diplomatic relations.[147]

What I said was the short version. Please, sit down.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 09:41:07 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 09:14:23 pm
No, Tibe he says interesting things. Every country(I don't talk about small countries) has the goal to export as much as they can and to import as less as they can. EU has good developed production, so to grow economy up they need new markets and of course they need to protect their markets, because of that USA and EU controlls import to protect selfproduction. It is so easy to understand. And small country like yours will gain if EU will make business in your country. They will invest in your country money, make new places for workers. Export their products to yours. Nobody says that there are only EU products. But this is a goal. And when something bad will happen like a war, your country will suffer too much, because you selfproduction is too small.

Now, this is what im talking about. You think thats the case, but its really not. And you misunderstand. The countries goal is not to export as much as they can and import as less as they can. That is wrong. Countries real goal would be to import something in lesser value and create something in greater value. Thats why poor african countries export timber and raw iron and other raw materials in very large quantities and earn almost nothing. While richer countries, like Japan for instance, imports all that raw material and creates steel for example which it exports in masses and gains fuckton of money for it.

My country gained wealth, because they adapted and jumped in new markets. Markets Moldova and Russia for instance would never invest in. Markets that have a lot of money in them. This is one reason why the East is poor, it sells raw resources like oil and gas. It never explores new markets. You think that selfproduction is good, but no country can be good at manufacturing everything. Moldova failed in EU cause im quite sure it couldnt compete. I dont seriuslly understand you love for selfproduction. In some parts of the world manufacturing is cheaper than in your country and if you import that instead of making it for a much higher price you actually save money. And the price for everything that gets made from that much more expensive "selfproduct" gets risen aswell. Economy is a lot more complex thing. Going for "selfproduction" on everything is a really horrible idea and cripples your country economically in other ways than just importing everything would.

Your understanding on selfproduction and worldwide markets is wrong and explains a lot. If EU/USA/jews/illuminati actually wants to destroy Russia, than its succeeding at this moment. Making you think that you need to make everything yourself and import nothing. Which in some parts is more expensive to do and will probably help in rising prices in your country, but will lower the importcosts for EU, because if Russia doesnt want to import something EU imports too it means less demand. So GG. Everything is not so black and white. Ofcourse this last part was totally fictional. Dont take it so seriuslly. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 10:08:56 pm
(click to show/hide)
Well you answered one question why huge countries need to keep countries what exports raw materials poor. Because of that they can buy cheap raw materials. Just look how many countries were destroyed by USA and EU involvement in the East and Africa last years. I didn't see any sanctions. But to produce products in greater value is only one aspect. It is not a main goal. The real goal is what I wrote before to export as much as you can. And it is good if this are high quality and value products. But to grow up you need cheap materials and new markets. For example in 90's EU and USA bought oil and gas from Russia for very cheap price, because of that some oligarchs grew up. They stole all this money from us and transferred them to EU and USA, you think that EU and USA didn't know that they buy stolen gas and oil? of course they did, but they didn't care, it is just a business.
Also one quote:
the task of Russia after it lost the Cold War is to provide the wealthy countries with resources. But for this task they only require 50-60 million people.( the prime-minister of UK John Major)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 10:19:27 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 10:08:56 pm
(click to show/hide)
Well you answered one question why huge countries need to keep countries what exports raw materials poor. Because of that they can buy cheap raw materials. Just look how many countries were destroyed by USA and EU involvement in the East and Africa last years.

Find me evidence of countries that were actually destroyed by USA and EU. I want a list. Cause im quite confident you are just bullshitting here. Cause that sounds like just randomly shooting in the dark to me and hoping you come across something.

Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 10:08:56 pm
They stole all this money from us and transferred them to EU and USA, you think that EU and USA didn't know that they buy stolen gas and oil? of course they did, but they didn't care, it is just a business.

Who would have cared? You think Russia cares about other countries? You think China cares? Nobody cares. Its always buisness for everybody.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Swaggart on May 12, 2015, 10:22:21 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on May 12, 2015, 09:33:44 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria

Serbia was the Antagonist(Bosnian Serb shooter, with 5 Serbian conspirators and a whole lot of Serbian Military support)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria#Aftermath
This letter became known as the July Ultimatum, and Austria-Hungary stated that if Serbia did not accept all of the demands in total within 48 hours, it would recall its ambassador from Serbia. After receiving a telegram of support from Russia, Serbia mobilized its army and responded to the letter by completely accepting point #8 demanding an end to the smuggling of weapons and punishment of the frontier officers who had assisted the assassins and completely accepting point #10 which demanded Serbia report the execution of the required measures as they were completed. Serbia partially accepted, finessed, disingenuously answered or politely rejected elements of the preamble and enumerated demands #1–7 and #9. The shortcomings of Serbia's response were published by Austria-Hungary. Austria-Hungary responded by breaking diplomatic relations.[147]

What I said was the short version. Please, sit down.

You do realize the ultimatum was written specifically so any sovereign nation with any self respect would refuse, right? Unless of course you would consider unrestricted access for foreign military personnel completely acceptable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 10:27:27 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 12, 2015, 10:19:27 pm
Find me evidence of countries that were actually destroyed by USA and EU. I want a list. Cause im quite confident you are just bullshitting here. Cause that sounds like just randomly shooting in the dark to me and hoping you come across something.
Easy - Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Serbia, Sudan, Ruanda, Somali and so on
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on May 12, 2015, 10:47:43 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 09:14:23 pm
EU has good developed production, so to grow economy up they need new markets and of course they need to protect their markets, because of that USA and EU controlls import to protect selfproduction. It is so easy to understand. And small country like yours will gain if EU will make business in your country.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Yes, to increace economy, new market areas are usually searched, this mostly mean countries which are "stable". Good juridict system, transparency government and all in all no corruptions. These are very important parameters for economy and economic grow up. These are also the reasons why USA and EU are so dissapointed about Russia. Russia looked very promissing market area ~2000 - 2005 and new investors tried to do business in Russian and also offer better life for russians. Sadly, there was a military conflict 2008 with Georgia which caused some "alarms" for investors. Current conflict with Ukraine really vanished all investors from Russia. Sadly so, because there was a good start but nationalism won in Russia.

And about USA and EU control imports. Yes, there are tariffs for countries outside USA and EU area. But there are _also_ tariffs at Russian borders. That is the very reason why EU market area is so flexible, because the free trade. And this is the reason why so many ex-russian satelite countries' economy keep growing up in EU free market area. Those ex-satelite countries are great example how to offer better life for people and even some politics in Ukraine noticed this. They tried move toward west and EU and ofcourse, this isn't the diplomacy Russian leaders are looking for, right?

Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 09:14:23 pm
They will invest in your country money, make new places for workers. Export their products to yours.

Who are you referring with "they"? EU itself doesn't invest money if this will cause distortion in market. EU can invest money for new techology such as how to clean pollution or less energy consume engines and such. You see why this desires companies to invest EU and drag new brainstorm? This creates new jobs for workers but also helps companies to find cheaper (read: correct market value) employees. For example, there are huge number of Estonian workers in Finland. Finnish companies can offer they server cheaper, offer also jobs for finnish people because they can compete on price, it's a win-win-situation for people and country (tax money).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 10:49:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 10:27:27 pm
Easy - Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Serbia, Sudan, Ruanda, Somali and so on
I think Afghanistan was destroyed by russia, so eat your hat :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 10:49:53 pm
btw Russia and USA just few hrs ago agreed on using all their influence to end conflict in Ukraine, and cooperate in future.
Either USA noticed loss of allies in the world and decided to go for equality. Or Russia sold one of the Arabs countries to US, by not defending them when time comes. Or maybe one of them lied and its going to turn bad. They spoke for about 4 hrs.
If nobody lied then war in Ukraine finally over and all should be good. Really hope so!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 10:51:04 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 12, 2015, 10:49:06 pm
I think Afghanistan was destroyed by russia, so eat your hat :P

+ Vietnam by US, and Afganistan again by US 2nd time. But just count the difference
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 10:53:29 pm
Osakasa, what you wrote is right, but I wrote more about geopolitical influence, you just missed the point of previous conversation
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 10:59:15 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 10:49:53 pm
btw Russia and USA just few hrs ago agreed on using all their influence to end conflict in Ukraine, and cooperate in future.
Either USA noticed loss of allies in the world and decided to go for equality. Or Russia sold one of the Arabs countries to US, by not defending them when time comes. Or maybe one of them lied and its going to turn bad. They spoke for about 4 hrs.
If nobody lied then war in Ukraine finally over and all should be good. Really hope so!
US has wanted to end the conflict there all the time, you utter fucking moron.

Seriously, what the fuck? How do you even get that dumb? Russia ATTACKS UKRAINE and sustains the conflict with its own troops, equipment, money, leads the separatists, etc., etc.... yet, the US is at fault in these retards' minds. Like, how twisted can you get?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 11:10:38 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 12, 2015, 10:59:15 pm
US has wanted to end the conflict there all the time, you utter fucking moron.

Seriously, what the fuck? How do you even get that dumb? Russia ATTACKS UKRAINE and sustains the conflict with its own troops, equipment, money, leads the separatists, etc., etc.... yet, the US is at fault in these retards' minds. Like, how twisted can you get?

if so then why are they or germany agreeing on things for ukraine? u stupid shit
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 12, 2015, 11:13:49 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 11:10:38 pm
if so then why are they or germany agreeing on things for ukraine? u stupid shit
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 11:15:47 pm
more news, Kerry told Ukrainians not to start any aggressive actions against donbas - after their conversation with Putin :)))
yes right, they had nothing to do with it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 11:19:55 pm
we can go back and forth forever Xant, only time will tell
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 12, 2015, 11:35:06 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 12, 2015, 11:15:47 pm
:)))

Your nickname can be translated as insane, right? Then it describes you at best. Stop it or I'll have to congratulate you with achieving a Tovilist member status.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 12, 2015, 11:48:41 pm
Quote from: Swaggart on May 12, 2015, 10:22:21 pm
You do realize the ultimatum was written specifically so any sovereign nation with any self respect would refuse, right? Unless of course you would consider unrestricted access for foreign military personnel completely acceptable.

Yea, i Know. The whole point of this entire thing was the "America did X!" Idiocy and showed how, using "Russian Logic," Russia started WW1 (and WW2).

Austria did all that knowing that Germany had it's back, but, if you look at true troop movements, Russia and it's little puppet Serbia, mobilized their forces first, causing everyone to gear up for war and mobilize.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:08:56 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 12, 2015, 10:27:27 pm
Easy - Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Serbia, Sudan, Ruanda, Somali and so on

Libya had an internal struggle, completely unrelated to the West, Syria had relatively same. Iraq and Afghanistan are exactly in the same situation they were pre US, their situation didnt get worse. Afganistan was ruined already during the Cold war by basically everybody, including ussr. Dunno about Serbia. Venezuela is completely corrupt. Sudan and Ruanda have always been extremely unstable without anyones help and the most Somalians can prove is that the West stole all their fish and shat all over their coast. :D Not so easy. You still have nothing m8.

Even if you do manage to pull USA and EU out of your arse, you cant really find a reason why they did it. Its not like USA goes to random countries makes them unstable and than buys all their raw resource cheap. What are you stupid? There are actual countries where theres very solid evidence that USA has taken their democracy for their own gain, but none of these countries you just listed are those.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 06:14:00 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:08:56 am
Libya had an internal struggle, completely unrelated to the West, Syria had relatively same. Iraq and Afghanistan are exactly in the same situation they were pre US, their situation didnt get worse. Afganistan was ruined already during the Cold war by basically everybody, including ussr. Dunno about Serbia. Venezuela is completely corrupt. Sudan and Ruanda have always been extremely unstable without anyones help and the most Somalians can prove is that the West stole all their fish and shat all over their coast. :D Not so easy. You still have nothing m8.

Even if you do manage to pull USA and EU out of your arse, you cant really find a reason why they did it. Its not like USA goes to random countries makes them unstable and than buys all their raw resource cheap. What are you stupid? There are actual countries where theres very solid evidence that USA has taken their democracy for their own gain, but none of these countries you just listed are those.
Tibe you just showed that you know so little about this countries(and only what you saw on your TV). USA and EU dinn do nuffin. Do you realize that it is enough to keep frozen conflicts in the area to hold all area poor. That's what happenning. You need to learn deeper about countries. Your excuse just like those countries were bad, because of that USA and EU involved there and made them better. No. they made them worse much worse. Also they killed a lot of civillians, by mistake as they apoligize later. The qoute from John Major describes everything so clear, you just don't want to admit it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:35:56 am
That wasnt my point at all. My point was that USA and EU werent even related at all. That these countries collapsed on its own weight, because if I DO look at their HISTORY, i can clearly see their own people have always fucked their own countries for their own gains, which is why they are poor. USA didnt make them worse, because USA wasnt even there and your proofs for it are extremely lacking and quite frankly made up by similar anti-westerners who might have been there, but are totally looking for a connection to throw shit at the US. Like for example when Gaddafi in Lybia came to power 40 years ago, he instantly kicked all the jews and italians out of his country - clearly this is the man, who was good, wanted economic growth and freedom. :D

True. Mybe I am relying too heavly on TV. But the fact is that you are desperately looking for leads and cases which arent quite simply true. If I do look at their history I can clearly see they have been poor and broken without USA-s help long ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 06:52:17 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:35:56 am
USA didnt make them worse, because USA wasnt even there
Tibe what? Do you answer for you words? USA wasnt there? Tibe don't be idiot
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:59:47 am
Again, he pulls some random statement out of posts, to dodge replying to the actual points in them. Why do I bother....

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 07:01:05 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:59:47 am
Again, he pulls some random statement out of posts, to dodge replying to the actual points in them. Why do I bother....

(click to show/hide)
Tibe that was your words, or I understood them wrong anyhow, then explain what you meant USA didnt make them worse, because USA wasnt even there
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 07:30:07 am
In some of those cases yeah.

Iraq. Saddam invaded his neibhour. Wanted to completely wipe out a country. If USA hadnt invaded, the Arab league would have invaded Iraq instead and much more people would have died. And what do you even think USA gained from Iraq and Afganistan? Do you have even the slightest idea how much USA actually pays these countries these days? They didnt and dont earn anything, they just lose a fuckton of money which they really need for themselves on these countries. So, again, USA invading them, so that they could get a profit, is not true, because there isnt a single possible way they can actually get a profit. And if they dont get a profit. Why are they there?

USA and EU hasnt earned any money at all from any of these countries you listed and they arent ever going to either. I fail to see how keeping these countries poor is in anyones intrests in the West.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 08:21:40 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 07:30:07 am
In some of those cases yeah.

Iraq. Saddam invaded his neibhour. Wanted to completely wipe out a country. If USA hadnt invaded, the Arab league would have invaded Iraq instead and much more people would have died. And what do you even think USA gained from Iraq and Afganistan? Do you have even the slightest idea how much USA actually pays these countries these days? They didnt and dont earn anything, they just lose a fuckton of money which they really need for themselves on these countries. So, again, USA invading them, so that they could get a profit, is not true, because there isnt a single possible way they can actually get a profit. And if they dont get a profit. Why are they there?

USA and EU hasnt earned any money at all from any of these countries you listed and they arent ever going to either. I fail to see how keeping these countries poor is in anyones intrests in the West.
Geopolitics. And they made a lot of mistakes which tries to improve. For the beginning they supported Saddam and his war against Iran. And so on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 13, 2015, 08:32:42 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:59:47 am
Again, he pulls some random statement out of posts, to dodge replying to the actual points in them. Why do I bother....

(click to show/hide)

Just ignore, it's a cure for it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 13, 2015, 08:44:35 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 08:21:40 am
Geopolitics. And they made a lot of mistakes which tries to improve. For the beginning they supported Saddam and his war against Iran. And so on.
Why don't you create a thread about US and stick to it? NEWSFLASH - there is a significant lack of support for warmongering, that US has been displaying recently in middle east, but it is in NO FUCKING WAY related to Ukraine. Unless of course your are a russian sheeple trying to justify the bullshit that your shit-country is creating... This is Step 3 IIRC?

On the funneh side - my deep ***HINTHINT*** respects to Swedes for pioneering new form of defense against ruskies: http://www.svenskafreds.se/singingsailor/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 13, 2015, 09:31:26 am
whether there experts on domestic issues Macedonia? )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 13, 2015, 12:15:29 pm
Made me think of Tovi and others


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 13, 2015, 01:33:59 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 13, 2015, 12:15:29 pm
Made me think of Tovi and others



No, they're just retarded. Nobody would pay for such "quality" posts.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 13, 2015, 01:49:15 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 13, 2015, 01:33:59 pm
No, they're just retarded. Nobody would pay for such "quality" posts.

Well the RT loving trolls and ones spamming Vice videos comments too
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 13, 2015, 02:16:25 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 13, 2015, 01:33:59 pm
No, they're just retarded. Nobody would pay for such "quality" posts.
You think there's any not retarded Russians for hire for such positions?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 13, 2015, 02:29:57 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 13, 2015, 02:16:25 pm
You think there's any not retarded Russians?

ftfy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 03:40:11 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 13, 2015, 03:04:39 pm
Was Iraq a wealthy and prosperous nation before Saddam and his war against Iran?

And was Iraq a wealthy and prosperous nation before WW2?

Final question. Was Iraq a wealthy and prosperous nation before the USA became a political entity in the 18th Century?

Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 06:14:00 am
those countries were bad, because of that USA and EU involved there and made them better. No. they made them worse much worse.
Seems you don't read previous messages, then I gave it for you. Now try to find where I said about a wealthy and prosperous nation, before you were objective, now you showed your true face
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on May 13, 2015, 04:19:50 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 13, 2015, 03:04:39 pm
Was Iraq a wealthy and prosperous nation before Saddam and his war against Iran?

And was Iraq a wealthy and prosperous nation before WW2?

Final question. Was Iraq a wealthy and prosperous nation before the USA became a political entity in the 18th Century?

Yes it was. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 13, 2015, 04:40:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 03:40:11 pm
Seems you don't read previous messages, then I gave it for you. Now try to find where I said about a wealthy and prosperous nation, before you were objective, now you showed your true face
Yes because a dictator killing whoever he wants with complete power and starting wars against neighboring countries was so much better.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 05:01:26 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 13, 2015, 04:40:26 pm
Yes because a dictator killing whoever he wants with complete power and starting wars against neighboring countries was so much better.
But who helped him to become so? USA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on May 13, 2015, 05:18:29 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 05:01:26 pm
But who helped him to become so? USA

If you really try to simplify Iraq-Iran war saying "because USA", you are making a huge error. This war is extremely complex and for sure there is no good vs evil in this. Iraq used chemical weapons, Iran used kid soldiers. This really isn't a war made by USA. And nice little fact about this war:
"Iraq's three main suppliers of weaponry during the war were the Soviet Union followed by China and then France. It also acquired substantial arms from Portugal." [1]
You see, Soviet Union and USA supplied same country (Iraq)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_combatants_in_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 05:27:27 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 05:01:26 pm
But who helped him to become so? USA

It was the Cold War back then. The rules were different. Even USSR aided massmurdering dictators come to power back than. And its not like during that time period the Arab countries picked their president, all governing in the middle East was done by force. It was a different time.

And I personally support anti-Iran stance. I dont really know what they do now, but Iran used to be a very good country before the Islam revolution. True, the Western powers created a coop and puppeted it. But it had good education and intellectuality. Than they took their country back and replaced it with an extremely violent authoricratic rule. Which exsists to this day. Iran wasnt ruined by the West, you dumbass. Iran was basically built and modernized by the West(sure for personal gains) and than it was taken back by angry muslims and all that was used to oppress their own people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 13, 2015, 06:03:03 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on May 13, 2015, 05:20:04 pm
I read previous messages, and you did not call them wealthy or prosperous, that is why I asked my questions. Rather than doing the normal cRPG forum technique of inventing something you've never said and running with it.

I don't think it's possible for me to be objective, only having lived in the west. So I certainly wasn't objective before. I appreciate that I may not being seeing the other side of the coin here, but if the other side of the coin involves Russia's entitlement to conquer because other nations did bad things in the past too (which some here seem to be claiming), then frankly I don't want to see the other side of the coin.

Our nation's done shit things in the past, we try to learn from them and be sufficiently outraged at our government when they do it. Not use it to justify further acts.
Heskey, my nation made a lot of shit too, especially in USSR. Why we started to talk about, because I gave my opinion that Ukraine is a geopolitical conflict between Russia and USA. And we got so deep, because others don't want to see USA involvement. Nebun said how it was in Moldova. And it was same scenario. When I say about Belarus, that there were attempts to do same revolutions(Lukashenko said it by himself). People started to say that he is a dictator. Such a lame, when I ask people to find what people think, they start to say that Russia is evil. And so on.  Nobody wants to see USA involvement. that's I call good western propoganda
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 13, 2015, 06:35:58 pm
"The West definately ruined a lot of countries, I dont know how or even why, but if I think real hard I'l figure it out. And if I research real hard I might even find some completely random facts which I could pull off as evidence cause I just dont know any better"

 - every pro-east dude in this thread :lol:

Im done.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 13, 2015, 06:44:52 pm
yes was fun in Moldova, Russia abandoned us and US + Romania had easy time making their revolt, they drove buses from romania full of ppl that was revolting, locals was there too, high nationalists ethnic romanians, with FLAGS of romania and EU. There wasn't many of them. Police was told not to fight because there was teenagers in their ranks. Police got wasted and thrown rocks at. Then president resigned at some point. Google this u will find images with romanian flags.
By the way, before election we was proposed in long run integrate in EU, our president was leaning more towards dealing with both sides. Yes his party only got 50% votes or similar, and there was about 20 smaller parties with the rest of votes, and they ALL allied in one day :)))))) though hated eachother, i guess they are easy to buy

Now a little history though with romania we have a lot of historic ties. But since Dacia times when Romans took it over, and then it got split up later, we've been part of romania very short period of time. Before soviet union it was 23 year and we was taken by force. In soviet union Moldova was since 1919 until 1991. Romania fought for chocolate chip cookies and moldova fought for Soviets, and by stories of my grandparents and other relatives Romanians treated moldova in WW2 way worse then Germans. Starved, killed, raped women, just regular population. Before that only within this period (1861—1881) we was as one country with Romania, just 20 years! Before that we was part of Russian empire for 100 years, they freed us from ottoman empire. Before that moldova for 500 years was on its own or vassals of other countries - not romania!
Yes moldova and romania(Volahia back then) was fighting side by side many times against Ottoman empire. But it doesn't give them right to come to our country make revolution and tell us that our country doesn't exist.

On the other hand read history of Crimea, how long it was ukrainian, when it become theirs, who give it to them, and how long this land was in ottoman empire, and also what ethnic population live there.
Part of moldova was given to Ukraine too, also our exit to the black sea, by the same Ukrainian Hruscev when he was leader of USSR. But in this case can't say it would be good to return this region because there isn't many moldovians left there comparing to other population.  There is also big chunk of moldova was taken by Romania.
In history yes romania was one of the friends for moldova in medieval times but later it was aggressor.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 13, 2015, 08:38:38 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 13, 2015, 06:44:52 pm
yes was fun in Moldova, Russia abandoned us and US + Romania had easy time making their revolt, they drove buses from romania full of ppl that was revolting, locals was there too, high nationalists ethnic romanians, with FLAGS of romania and EU. There wasn't many of them. Police was told not to fight because there was teenagers in their ranks. Police got wasted and thrown rocks at. Then president resigned at some point. Google this u will find images with romanian flags.
By the way, before election we was proposed in long run integrate in EU, our president was leaning more towards dealing with both sides. Yes his party only got 50% votes or similar, and there was about 20 smaller parties with the rest of votes, and they ALL allied in one day :)))))) though hated eachother, i guess they are easy to buy

Now a little history though with romania we have a lot of historic ties. But since Dacia times when Romans took it over, and then it got split up later, we've been part of romania very short period of time. Before soviet union it was 23 year and we was taken by force. In soviet union Moldova was since 1919 until 1991. Romania fought for chocolate chip cookies and moldova fought for Soviets, and by stories of my grandparents and other relatives Romanians treated moldova in WW2 way worse then Germans. Starved, killed, raped women, just regular population. Before that only within this period (1861—1881) we was as one country with Romania, just 20 years! Before that we was part of Russian empire for 100 years, they freed us from ottoman empire. Before that moldova for 500 years was on its own or vassals of other countries - not romania!
Yes moldova and romania(Volahia back then) was fighting side by side many times against Ottoman empire. But it doesn't give them right to come to our country make revolution and tell us that our country doesn't exist.

On the other hand read history of Crimea, how long it was ukrainian, when it become theirs, who give it to them, and how long this land was in ottoman empire, and also what ethnic population live there.
Part of moldova was given to Ukraine too, also our exit to the black sea, by the same Ukrainian Hruscev when he was leader of USSR. But in this case can't say it would be good to return this region because there isn't many moldovians left there comparing to other population.  There is also big chunk of moldova was taken by Romania.
In history yes romania was one of the friends for moldova in medieval times but later it was aggressor.
And because your were almost never your own masters - you live a shitty life now. Congratz. Make a separate thread for your excuses.

There is a reason, why "locals voted" or "they are all russians anyway" is not a legitimate basis for annexing land of another country, because based on that russian logic - parts of london and New York could vote to become russia or China for that matter. If you want to see how voting for independence is done PROPERLY - check example of Scotland, if you want to see how to make a mockery of russia (again and again) - check voting in Crimea and Donbass.

Also - that is the same logic that naztees used to stirr up shit around Germany pre WW2. That is why people are comparing putler to the einstein and with good cause too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 13, 2015, 11:48:26 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 13, 2015, 08:38:38 pm
And because your were almost never your own masters - you live a shitty life now. Congratz. Make a separate thread for your excuses.

There is a reason, why "locals voted" or "they are all russians anyway" is not a legitimate basis for annexing land of another country, because based on that russian logic - parts of london and New York could vote to become russia or China for that matter. If you want to see how voting for independence is done PROPERLY - check example of Scotland, if you want to see how to make a mockery of russia (again and again) - check voting in Crimea and Donbass.

Also - that is the same logic that naztees used to stirr up shit around Germany pre WW2. That is why people are comparing putler to the einstein and with good cause too.

It was their choice u idiot, its  Autonomous Republic of Crimea was formed as a constituent entity of independent Ukraine, its republic within country. Like in soviet union when russia was main part and the rest was republics within USSR. I don't see u complaining about those bits separating. They basically run away from conflict. Check in Wiki how much russian population live in Crimea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvqTZQ4ZbU4 this happened in Ukraine with VETERAN for victory symbol on 9th of may on his jacket!
I don't know why they don't show u in ur media all the fucked up shit thats happening with regular people in Ukraine, when nationalist fanatics harras people, since by the look of the nice fellas sitting in this channel i think it would just make u even more happy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 13, 2015, 11:56:26 pm
more fun
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

it says Heil H i t l e r and then on next line Слава Украине, this is what they now shout on TV in army in parlament :) this is the same thing that Bandera lead Ukrainians shouted in ww2 fighting for einstein and slaughtering civilians in ukraine who was pro russian, and in poland who was polish. Their main focus wasn't fighting Soviets, but killing civilians of other nations living in that area. Thats why in previour videos and other places there are issues with Veterans. A lot of them just confused, some angry. They making this Social adverts where veterans support current army. But just check dozen of videos on UTUBE, made from phones or hand cameras and u will see that its all other way around.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 08:38:30 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 13, 2015, 11:48:26 pm
It was their choice u idiot, its  Autonomous Republic of Crimea was formed as a constituent entity of independent Ukraine, its republic within country. Like in soviet union when russia was main part and the rest was republics within USSR. I don't see u complaining about those bits separating. They basically run away from conflict. Check in Wiki how much russian population live in Crimea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvqTZQ4ZbU4 this happened in Ukraine with VETERAN for victory symbol on 9th of may on his jacket!
I don't know why they don't show u in ur media all the fucked up shit thats happening with regular people in Ukraine, when nationalist fanatics harras people, since by the look of the nice fellas sitting in this channel i think it would just make u even more happy
Off course it was their choice. Putler later admitting to organizing this whole shit-sham is irrelevant  :rolleyes:

And yes - 58% of russians have full right (with the help of putler ofcourse) to fuck up whatever the fuck laws they want. Its a russian thing. CBA to repeat, but I will - if you want to see how independence referendums happen PROPERLY - check the example of Scotland, if you want to see how to annex lands under pretenses of "referendums" - check the example of russian bullshit in Crimea and Donbass.

Re naztees -  you were saying something?  http://lmgtfy.com/?q=russian+ultranationalists (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=russian+ultranationalists)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 14, 2015, 08:54:53 am
Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvqTZQ4ZbU4 this happened in Ukraine with VETERAN for victory symbol on 9th of may on his jacket!
I don't know why they don't show u in ur media all the fucked up shit thats happening with regular people in Ukraine, when nationalist fanatics harras people, since by the look of the nice fellas sitting in this channel i think it would just make u even more happy

Probably because your media told you it is veteran? Come on, seriously, please, check your sources before making conclusions and tell other "the truth" their media doesn't show them.
Not that I support svoboda party(young guys on video) in any way, rather the opposite, I'm absolutely happy they didn't make it into parliament, but I'm not going to pity heads of communist party(older guy on video) either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 09:00:12 am
Quote from: serr on May 14, 2015, 08:54:53 am
Probably because your media told you it is veteran? Come on, seriously, please, check your sources before making conclusions and tell other "the truth" their media doesn't show them.
Not that I support svoboda party(young guys on video) in any way, rather the opposite, I'm absolutely happy they didn't make it into parliament, but I'm not going to pity heads of communist party(older guy on video) either.
BLASPHEMY!!! SOVIETS SAVED WORLD FROM NAZTEES! UNI VERSAL RESPECT MUST BE DISPLAYED! (all the people they killed in the process/afterwards are irrlevant).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 09:03:44 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 13, 2015, 11:48:26 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvqTZQ4ZbU4 this happened in Ukraine with VETERAN for victory symbol on 9th of may on his jacket!
I don't know why they don't show u in ur media all the fucked up shit thats happening with regular people in Ukraine, when nationalist fanatics harras people, since by the look of the nice fellas sitting in this channel i think it would just make u even more happy

Nebun, you're such an idiot. Congrats, you're an honourable (not really) member of Tovilist from now on.

The word VETERAN that you really tried to highlight. I guess you don't only have a problem with English but also with maths. The youngest possible veterans should be in their late 80s, that man is maximum in his late 60s (most likely something around 60-65).
Next, what victory symbol are you talking about? That is a Putin's propaganda sign that is just as bullshit mess as everything else merging things contrary to each other. Russia started using it since 2005 and as a child I took part in each 9th of May celebration and my veteran grandpa was alive I never remember anyone using that stripe as a symbol of victory.
Now again back to the video. That man is just a communistic cunt, he put a lot of stripes on himself, used soviet symbols like red flags and so on (note that they're against the law) just to provoke.
Now listen what they asked: "Each year you commit provocations for Russian TV. Dear Mr. Kolynyuk (?)... ...For your own safety I recommend you to stay home and not commit any provocations. Please, stay home, keep calm and silent and don't provoke people." He just refused everything even having a soviet flag at the moment he opened the door.

Well, I honestly think that what they did is wrong, he has to be sentenced for violating laws. Because of idiots like him we have zombies in Russia and retards like Nebun all over the world thinking that all Ukrainians are nаzis abiding ideology of Adоlf Hitlеr.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 09:13:57 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 09:03:44 am
Well, I honestly think that what they did is wrong, he has to be sentenced for violating laws. Because of idiots like him we have zombies in Russia and retards like Nebun all over the world thinking that all Ukrainians are nаzis abiding ideology of Adоlf Hitlеr.
There are same amount of nazis in Ukraine as in other countries, the difference is that in other countries those nazis are punished for their crimes, and in Ukraine are not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 09:20:47 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 09:13:57 am
There are same amount of nazis in Ukraine as in other countries, the difference is that in other countries those nazis are punished for their crimes, and in Ukraine are not.

The problem is that nobody is punished for their crimes in Ukraine. Neither commies nor nаzis and that's sad. That's actually one of the reasons why we don't want to get Russian standards of life because it's the same shit (shout out to Evgeniya Vasilyeva). The law is nothing in Russia but a tool for powerful people just like in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on May 14, 2015, 09:31:24 am
I don't really see the difference between Russian and Ukrainian nationalists. The proto-facism is strong in both, we the ethnic circle-jerk(muh must save russian race around the world) and all. But that people like that celebrate "their" anti-fascistic past like they do seems a bit strange.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 09:33:01 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 09:20:47 am
The problem is that nobody is punished for their crimes in Ukraine. Neither commies nor nаzis and that's sad. That's actually one of the reasons why we don't want to get Russian standards of life because it's the same shit (shout out to Evgeniya Vasilyeva). The law is nothing in Russia but a tool for powerful people just like in Ukraine.
I agree that Russia is a corrupt country, but didn't found that nazis can do what they want there. I think that sending nazis to fight in Donbass was a fault, because they harras people in Donbass and now those people are against Kiev, because of that they think that new government is khunta. But this is not true of course. And russian media uses this in their propoganda. Kiev government must do something with those harrasments.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 10:27:46 am
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 09:33:01 am
I agree that Russia is a corrupt country, but didn't found that nazis can do what they want there. I think that sending nazis to fight in Donbass was a fault, because they harras people in Donbass and now those people are against Kiev, because of that they think that new government is khunta. But this is not true of course. And russian media uses this in their propoganda. Kiev government must do something with those harrasments.
There are few morons everywhere. Problem is that russian media sold you the idea, that Ukraine formed batalions of morons naztees and sent them to fight, when in reality - the ones, who consider themself biggest patriots formed the volunteer batalions, which were first to the fights, because the army was lagging behind. The point is that there WERE some idiots within those volunteers, but they were miniscule and you over-generalize to no end calling all of them naztees. Even worse - semi-admitting, that "russia is bad/wrong", your beg to for agreement with your other statements, which at their root support general line that russian media is trying to sell to the rest of the world, i.e. bullshit.

Quite reasonable attempt though. Good luck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 10:41:40 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 10:27:46 am
There are few morons everywhere. Problem is that russian media sold you the idea, that Ukraine formed batalions of morons naztees and sent them to fight, when in reality - the ones, who consider themself biggest patriots formed the volunteer batalions, which were first to the fights, because the army was lagging behind. The point is that there WERE some idiots within those volunteers, but they were miniscule and you over-generalize to no end calling all of them naztees. Even worse - semi-admitting, that "russia is bad/wrong", your beg to for agreement with your other statements, which at their root support general line that russian media is trying to sell to the rest of the world, i.e. bullshit.

Quite reasonable attempt though. Good luck.
Can you understand what he is saying?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 14, 2015, 11:16:57 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 10:27:46 am
There are few morons everywhere. Problem is that russian media sold you the idea, that Ukraine formed batalions of morons naztees and sent them to fight, when in reality - the ones, who consider themself biggest patriots formed the volunteer batalions, which were first to the fights, because the army was lagging behind. The point is that there WERE some idiots within those volunteers, but they were miniscule and you over-generalize to no end calling all of them naztees. Even worse - semi-admitting, that "russia is bad/wrong", your beg to for agreement with your other statements, which at their root support general line that russian media is trying to sell to the rest of the world, i.e. bullshit.
Quite reasonable attempt though. Good luck.
totally agree with you! The same was the case with the Germans, they just wanted a strong healthy nation, but the actions couple of idiots who were a bit harsh to the representatives of the other races have spoiled the whole idea. And the Jews took advantage of the situation and through the media have shown the Germans as the Devil!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 14, 2015, 11:44:58 am
This sure as shit sounds like the move of a fascist regime:

Quote
The ruling United Russia party will form neighbourhood patrols to maintain order and thwart petty crime on the streets of Moscow, the Kommersant newspaper reported Wednesday, citing an unnamed source in the party.

Since the adoption last year of legislation permitting citizen participation in maintaining order, pro-Kremlin vigilantes have assumed new roles in policing the streets and standing up for traditional values. The new United Russia vigilantes, who are set to begin their operations later this month or in early June, will be recruited from among private security companies, defence-oriented organizations and Cossack quasi-military associations, according to Kommersant's source.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 14, 2015, 12:29:25 pm
All Western propogondo and obviously untrue!
Pretty much how SA was born... all those coincidental correlations between modern day Russia and NS-Germany... fascinating. History does repeat itself, it seems.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 12:46:37 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 08:38:30 am
Off course it was their choice. Putler later admitting to organizing this whole shit-sham is irrelevant  :rolleyes:

And yes - 58% of russians have full right (with the help of putler ofcourse) to fuck up whatever the fuck laws they want. Its a russian thing. CBA to repeat, but I will - if you want to see how independence referendums happen PROPERLY - check the example of Scotland, if you want to see how to annex lands under pretenses of "referendums" - check the example of russian bullshit in Crimea and Donbass.

Re naztees -  you were saying something?  http://lmgtfy.com/?q=russian+ultranationalists (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=russian+ultranationalists)

There is whole documentary about this. Government of Crimea wanted to decide on referendum, squads from Ukraine trying to get in Crimea and locals defended. After when they decided to make referendum russian forces from base in ukraine, blocked all Ukrainian bases. After referendum they allowed ukrainan troops to either got back to ukraine or join russian forces. 12k or so joined Russian forces/or stayed as Crimean forces. If this wouldn't happen  Ukraine wouldn't let referendum to happen
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 12:48:21 pm
Quote from: serr on May 14, 2015, 08:54:53 am
Probably because your media told you it is veteran? Come on, seriously, please, check your sources before making conclusions and tell other "the truth" their media doesn't show them.
Not that I support svoboda party(young guys on video) in any way, rather the opposite, I'm absolutely happy they didn't make it into parliament, but I'm not going to pity heads of communist party(older guy on video) either.
Oh sorry, he wasn't veteran???? ok guys he just some old guy its ok do whatever u want, is this acceptable in EU?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 12:56:59 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 12:48:21 pm
Oh sorry, he wasn't veteran???? ok guys he just some old guy its ok do whatever u want, is this acceptable in EU?

If it was in EU he would be in jail already. And if you weren't a fool who throws shit info you wouldn't ask. Too many "ifs", don't you find?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 01:01:17 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 09:03:44 am
Nebun, you're such an idiot. Congrats, you're an honourable (not really) member of Tovilist from now on.

The word VETERAN that you really tried to highlight. I guess you don't only have a problem with English but also with maths. The youngest possible veterans should be in their late 80s, that man is maximum in his late 60s (most likely something around 60-65).
Next, what victory symbol are you talking about? That is a Putin's propaganda sign that is just as bullshit mess as everything else merging things contrary to each other. Russia started using it since 2005 and as a child I took part in each 9th of May celebration and my veteran grandpa was alive I never remember anyone using that stripe as a symbol of victory.
Now again back to the video. That man is just a communistic cunt, he put a lot of stripes on himself, used soviet symbols like red flags and so on (note that they're against the law) just to provoke.
Now listen what they asked: "Each year you commit provocations for Russian TV. Dear Mr. Kolynyuk (?)... ...For your own safety I recommend you to stay home and not commit any provocations. Please, stay home, keep calm and silent and don't provoke people." He just refused everything even having a soviet flag at the moment he opened the door.

Well, I honestly think that what they did is wrong, he has to be sentenced for violating laws. Because of idiots like him we have zombies in Russia and retards like Nebun all over the world thinking that all Ukrainians are nаzis abiding ideology of Adоlf Hitlеr.

I never said that all ukrainians chocolate chip cookies, where?
Ukrainian government sided with those chocolate chip cookies that are in Ukraine.  And as krrhmXPRNC mentioned chocolate chip cookies are everwhere, for example in Russia chocolate chip cookies on liberal side, when there was protests of liberals chocolate chip cookies was there with their flags in russia raging against russian government.
The problem here is that they let those chocolate chip cookies fight, because they do what they want!!!!!! And can't be controlled and if it was only that i would say well ok its just a mess.
But ur government renamed current and ukrainian chocolate chip cookies in WW2 as liberating armies and made their leaders heroes! Its in ur law, ur government.
I'm not saying all ukrainians like that, i'm sure most either don't care or just pissed off with one or other side. But then why don't u put those chocolate chip cookies fucks in prison instead of making them heroes? name me at list few fascist fucks that was put in prison for harassing people.
Ok even if symbols of victory accepted by veterans is putins propaganda, why can't u wear them in Ukraine? free democratic country?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 01:11:53 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 12:56:59 pm
If it was in EU he would be in jail already.
Really, what for? As I understood he had St.George's Ribbon. Or he did any crime? Can't find it on the video. Or you say about young guys?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 01:14:11 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 14, 2015, 11:44:58 am
This sure as shit sounds like the move of a fascist regime:


they just made this shit up as they go

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA
on 9th may there was not sure how its called in english, but something like undead march, everyone carried pictures of their relatives lost in war, 12 million people was on that march and happened in all of russia, + some neighboring countries. Putin and some other politicians was among them. national unity and understanding and support for current government is higher then ever before
and in CNN they said that after parade where russia shown its nukes (that it does every single year since it had them), people got upset for this display and set up their own parade against government (or something like that) :)))
this is the amount of bullshit u see this days from CNN, i'm not saying russian media is pure, i've seen a lot of unnecessary lies, like for example ukraining bank trying to get tank factory bankrupt, first off all its not ukrainian so its bullshit, there is also some extrime patriots that is also bad, that make their own news
thats why i was saying all main stream media is shit everywhere, so even if u watch it - CHECK for fuck sakes, i know its just easier to trust them but don't be lazy cunts
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 01:26:15 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 12:56:59 pm
If it was in EU he would be in jail already. And if you weren't a fool who throws shit info you wouldn't ask. Too many "ifs", don't you find?

well considering what ur government done right now u either couldn't give a fuck about ur own ppl and want to move out to europe when they open borders for u and who cares about those who will have to live in this conditions or u just a chocolate chip cookie shit, what are other options out there?

level of life declined to complete shit, idiotic war with ruined lives and territory, stop of paying pensions to people living in donbas, u think they actively fighting in war? Someone constantly stealing money in ur government and they all blame eachother. Ur new mayor is an idiot, he talks to rocks and brain damaged since forever. Ur country full of debts and they going to hire for lots of money mercs from other countries. Now they installing new law of selling land in ukraine to citizens of other countries. Ukraine going to be raped and robbed. Anyway don't worry dave u can always go to eu later on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 03:09:59 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 12:46:37 pm
There is whole documentary about this. Government of Crimea wanted to decide on referendum, squads from Ukraine trying to get in Crimea and locals defended. After when they decided to make referendum russian forces from base in ukraine, blocked all Ukrainian bases. After referendum they allowed ukrainan troops to either got back to ukraine or join russian forces. 12k or so joined Russian forces/or stayed as Crimean forces. If this wouldn't happen  Ukraine wouldn't let referendum to happen
I hope you at least get a hard-on from that "documentary-of-how-ruskies-make-propogondo", because I don't :) And from what I see - you don't give a shit about what really happened, you just like russian version of reality, good luck living in shit for the rest of your days (because thats the only thing russia is able to export, besides natural resources).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 03:12:05 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 01:14:11 pm
<...bullshit...>
thats why i was saying all main stream media that I watch is shit everywhere, so even if u watch it - CHECK for fuck sakes, i know its just easier to trust them but don't be lazy cunts, like I am.
ftfy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 14, 2015, 03:28:55 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 01:14:11 pm

they just made this shit up as they go

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA
on 9th may there was not sure how its called in english, but something like undead march, everyone carried pictures of their relatives lost in war, 12 million people was on that march and happened in all of russia, + some neighboring countries. Putin and some other politicians was among them. national unity and understanding and support for current government is higher then ever before
and in CNN they said that after parade where russia shown its nukes (that it does every single year since it had them), people got upset for this display and set up their own parade against government (or something like that) :)))
this is the amount of bullshit u see this days from CNN, i'm not saying russian media is pure, i've seen a lot of unnecessary lies, like for example ukraining bank trying to get tank factory bankrupt, first off all its not ukrainian so its bullshit, there is also some extrime patriots that is also bad, that make their own news
thats why i was saying all main stream media is shit everywhere, so even if u watch it - CHECK for fuck sakes, i know its just easier to trust them but don't be lazy cunts

Please mighty Nebun direct me to a useful, unbiased news source. Believe it or not l have better things to do than be a research journalist and there must be some russian news sources you can recomend other than suggesting I trawl through the cesspit of youtube.  I seriously  would like to know your recomendations, some russian news sources must be reliable?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 03:33:33 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 14, 2015, 03:28:55 pm
Please mighty Nebun direct me to a useful, unbiased news source. Believe it or not l have better things to do than be a research journalist and there must be some russian news sources you can recomend other than suggesting I trawl through the cesspit of youtube.  I seriously  would like to know your recomendations, some russian news sources must be reliable?
http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij - ukrainian source, not russian. He promissed 10k $, if you will find any lie on his channel
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 14, 2015, 03:50:03 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 03:33:33 pm
http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij - ukrainian source, not russian. He promissed 10k $, if you will find any lie on his channel
LOL :D
Thats your problem right there  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on May 14, 2015, 03:50:54 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 07, 2015, 08:33:08 am
Well yes, I agree that there is no killed people I can find, so I think that was just russian propoganda, but anyway they were beaten. And nobody arrested. I think Odessa is better example, nobody arrested. After that many people raised against new power in Kiev.
I expected that, that's why I can't understand why you don't want to accept the opinion of most people in Crimea and Donbass. Why you don't care about 2 May. That is your new government who accepted OUN-UPA. That is your government gave weapon to the 16 y.o. guy who stole 30$ and killed 2 militiamen in Kiev.
I said you can believe it if you want, that's why I think you cann't get the Donbass and Crimea opinion
LOL, really?
Nicko, krrhmXPRNC, want some easy money?  :D
https://www.facebook.com/anatolijsharij/posts/10206740073808893?hc_location=ufi
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 04:13:58 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 14, 2015, 03:28:55 pm
Please mighty Nebun direct me to a useful, unbiased news source. Believe it or not l have better things to do than be a research journalist and there must be some russian news sources you can recomend other than suggesting I trawl through the cesspit of youtube.  I seriously  would like to know your recomendations, some russian news sources must be reliable?

if u don't have time on that maybe u shouldn't form such harsh opinions on the situation
i wouldn't take into account any mainstream media info account, russian too, even if they state some facts they add too much accent to suit their side
like on CNN they showed parade and then fit their opinion there, it was a show off, it was nuks there and 12 million march was because they hate parade and putin :) who the fuck are they to give that opinion?
if u look through some of the videos on u tube that like local reporters even from germany and other EU countries was there and made reports u will see that everything was different. Basically CNN showed something that is very positive for russia in oposite light of things.

I for example read news on Brics site and some online newspapers in germany and russian blogs but i don't take opinions into account and i check info.
Also for news like urs we have 1/3 of our clan living in moscow, there is no such thing as u describe in news. We have friends in ukraine and clan members and find out info from them.

because when u watch news in ukraine and they tell that they tested and found out that ukrainian tank t82 is the best in the world which is obviously not even close! U can't rely on sources like this, go check reviews of tanks and u will see that its average or worse.

If u want good source for example in armor loses or what equipment was captured and where u can check this resource http://lostarmour.info/
They very careful with info, they show photos of all tanks and pin point they on the map where and when they was destroyed and monthly statistics

when for example Poroshenko said we pulled out from debaltsevo easily, that also bullcrap, u can find multiple videos in Utube from ukrainians when they moving out of debaltsevo and being ambushed. Yes also russian Media was exaggerating loses, and Poroshenko was as well. Also they left 3 USA artillery tracking systems unpacked when they run away, there are videos when they found and got unpacked. Just check videos of regular people on utube.
For example 3-4 times right now West media showed photos of Russian tanks on road, and then those photos was not from ukraine they was from georgia conflict

Also opinions of people in Ukraine, its divided, probably even in half, just most people won't do anything, they either flee country or just try to live their lifes. While Russia say more ppl unhappy, and west says that all are happy and its russians causing problems. WTF!
Also a lot of ppl in russia think/thought that russia should send full force to ukraine and either take Donbas or kiev. And maybe if we would have another leader that could already happen. Nobody will tell u in the west that Putin multiple times says no and explained it as well. I'm not asking u to love him but u not getting any adequate information from ur media
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 14, 2015, 09:19:45 pm
Quote from: Paul on May 14, 2015, 09:31:24 am
I don't really see the difference between Russian and Ukrainian nationalists. The proto-facism is strong in both, we the ethnic circle-jerk(muh must save russian race around the world) and all. But that people like that celebrate "their" anti-fascistic past like they do seems a bit strange.

Fascist is a joke of a word in these parts anyway, like misogynist on the West Coast. Both completely lost all objective meaning.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 14, 2015, 09:19:49 pm
Quote from: serr on May 14, 2015, 03:50:54 pm
LOL, really?
Nicko, krrhmXPRNC, want some easy money?  :D
https://www.facebook.com/anatolijsharij/posts/10206740073808893?hc_location=ufi

Nicko and krrhmXPRNC is the same person I assume. He just uses this account to annoy me because Nicko's posts are not shown for my account, I can't get any other solid reason of that :D


Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 14, 2015, 03:33:33 pm
http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij - ukrainian source, not russian. He promissed 10k $, if you will find any lie on his channel

It's not a Ukrainian source, it's a source of a guy who lives in Baltics (IIRC) or elsewhere by far who also occasionally considers himself a citizen of Ukraine when it's a "PROFIT!!!" situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 14, 2015, 10:05:51 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 04:13:58 pm
Also a lot of ppl in russia think/thought that russia should send full force to ukraine and either take Donbas or kiev. And maybe if we would have another leader that could already happen. Nobody will tell u in the west that Putin multiple times says no and explained it as well. I'm not asking u to love him but u not getting any adequate information from ur media

Its kinda similar, if lets say one day for example a lot of Romainans live in Moldova, in a region thats bordered next to Romania. Do you think these romanians in your lands would have the legitimate right to create a voting to leave Moldova and join Romania if they are unhappy? Because thats what just happened in Ukr. Bunch of russians living in Ukrainian lands and since there is more of them than ukrainians they think they have the right to leave with Ukrainian land and join it to whatever country they like. Its idiotic. How do you see this as normal? I quarantee one day Moldova will cease to exsist, cause Russia will definately do the same to you, it did to Ukraine. And when that day happens, remember that ol' Tibe was completely right and you misjudged everything.

And if you think its impossible, that Russia is great ally. Than also remember that Russia considered Ukraine to be its greatest friend in just a few years ago and it took so little to have them straight up taking their lands and have bunch of ukraine vs russians battles. They will definately hate eachother for atleast 3 decades now. Ukrainian media has shown Russia as someone who declared war on them and is trying to destroy them and Russian media has shown Ukraine as some massive neonazi bunker that trains skinheads and crucifies children.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 10:53:27 pm
Quote from: Tibe on May 14, 2015, 10:05:51 pm
Its kinda similar, if lets say one day for example a lot of Romainans live in Moldova, in a region thats bordered next to Romania. Do you think these romanians in your lands would have the legitimate right to create a voting to leave Moldova and join Romania if they are unhappy? Because thats what just happened in Ukr. Bunch of russians living in Ukrainian lands and since there is more of them than ukrainians they think they have the right to leave with Ukrainian land and join it to whatever country they like. Its idiotic. How do you see this as normal? I quarantee one day Moldova will cease to exsist, cause Russia will definately do the same to you, it did to Ukraine. And when that day happens, remember that ol' Tibe was completely right and you misjudged everything.

And if you think its impossible, that Russia is great ally. Than also remember that Russia considered Ukraine to be its greatest friend in just a few years ago and it took so little to have them straight up taking their lands and have bunch of ukraine vs russians battles. They will definately hate eachother for atleast 3 decades now. Ukrainian media has shown Russia as someone who declared war on them and is trying to destroy them and Russian media has shown Ukraine as some massive neonazi bunker that trains skinheads and crucifies children.
1. yes if we will have revolution yes let them split then, but there is no such place for romanian here. Only Gagauzi and Russians.
2. in russian media they say chocolate chip cookie government not people, they called ukrainian brother nation as always. and no i don't see threat from russia, only from romania if we talk about territories. And if our government decide to restart conflict with Prednestrovie i expect them to want to split up completely. So i hope they won't do it!!! Ukrainian government is aggressive, their changes to law and attitude is insane, they could have done it like in Moldova without war. We also had sort of revolt, but at list temporary new president back then didn't destroy statues and made russian language and people outlaw. We had soft transition. We didn't made fascist romanians of ww2 heros, btw when they tried we almost had revolt and government quickly changed their mind!!!! if our country could work out how to make it work without conflict they could too! Ex soviet soldiers and new chocolate chip cookie heroes can't live well in new country. Maybe they could in time but if its done softly
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 15, 2015, 08:15:09 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 10:53:27 pm
1. yes if we will have revolution yes let them split then...
...

Heh, not the kind of awnser I expected. I quess thats the way things work in the barbarian East. :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 15, 2015, 08:40:51 am
Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 10:53:27 pm
1. yes if we will have revolution yes let them split then, but there is no such place for romanian here. Only Gagauzi and Russians.
Thats what YOU think. What if Romanians fixed that for you? What if in addition to "fixing it" in one part, they created artificial war in your home town?

Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 10:53:27 pm
2. in russian media they say chocolate chip cookie government not people, they called ukrainian brother nation as always.
...aaand proceeded to create an artificial war, which affects the BROTHERLY PEOPLE, not the government directly. GG.

Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 10:53:27 pm
and no i don't see threat from russia, only from romania if we talk about territories.
It only logically follows, that you are blind. Didn't see the little green men, didn't see putler admitting to causing the whole shit there, didn't see the "documentary" about how russia "restoredcreated" historical bullshit.
One question - how can you type, while being blind?

Quote from: Nebun on May 14, 2015, 10:53:27 pm
Ukrainian government is aggressive, their changes to law and attitude is insane, they could have done it like in Moldova without war. <...bullshit...>
Ukrainian givernment is a government under attack, as is the state of Ukraine. They have the right AND responsibility to defend themselves. As for "without war" - I think there was one, and it was russias involvement, which basically halted the thing. I.e. same scenario - russian nationalists say "we don't like central government", government tries to enforce its rule, russia says "fuck you, sovereign nation trying to enforce its sovereignty, we "defend" our own ruskies", frozen conflict is created. 3 such occasions happened already. 4 if you count Karabach too.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 01:21:07 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 15, 2015, 08:40:51 am
Thats what YOU think. What if Romanians fixed that for you? What if in addition to "fixing it" in one part, they created artificial war in your home town?
...aaand proceeded to create an artificial war, which affects the BROTHERLY PEOPLE, not the government directly. GG.
It only logically follows, that you are blind. Didn't see the little green men, didn't see putler admitting to causing the whole shit there, didn't see the "documentary" about how russia "restoredcreated" historical bullshit.
One question - how can you type, while being blind?
Ukrainian givernment is a government under attack, as is the state of Ukraine. They have the right AND responsibility to defend themselves. As for "without war" - I think there was one, and it was russias involvement, which basically halted the thing. I.e. same scenario - russian nationalists say "we don't like central government", government tries to enforce its rule, russia says "fuck you, sovereign nation trying to enforce its sovereignty, we "defend" our own ruskies", frozen conflict is created. 3 such occasions happened already. 4 if you count Karabach too.

ukrainian government is a fantasy of their own and it only supported by US/EU because its suits them. And u see only that russia making problems there, its very one sided. Its geopolitical conflict between states and russia. And people in ukraine is also split in their opinion. To russians they say that all against government, to west they say all people against russian soldiers in Ukraine (insane fantasy). Can't u consider something in the middle?
Why USA so involved in ukraine? Who the fuck are they to be there? Why this issues didn't happen in Litva, Latvia and Estonia? Nobody needed conflict back then, they split them quietly.
My opinion: there are countries/ppl, who are interested to fuck up improving relationships between EU and Russia that have great potential. Thats why they needed this conflict, instead of peaceful change of alignment. Obviously nobody expected russians move in this chess game :) Crimea, because i have to agree here if government of crimea would come to putin and say we want to join russia and he said no, then nothing would happen i guess. But he said yes. On political level its nice to fuck up US and NATO and not letting them have bases in crimea. But on Russian people side is the fact that when within USSR Crimea was gifted to Ukraine, it was always treated like russian territory, same people lived there. Russians consider real lose of crimea only when soviet union collapsed, and not when crimea was gifted to ukraine, because nobody thought USSR will split up and if yes ukraine wouldn't split up from Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 01:44:52 pm
This is how USA usually work
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Then
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2015, 02:14:45 pm
These Tovi, Butan, DonNicko and Nebun conspiracy theories about US are hilarious. Zero proof, yet tons of proof about Russia... yet Russia is the victim. It's so very classically Russian thing to do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 02:29:49 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 15, 2015, 02:14:45 pm
yet tons of shitty proof about Russia...
Fixed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 15, 2015, 02:36:46 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 02:29:49 pm
Fixed

Shitty proof is still proof.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 02:41:33 pm
Quote from: Casimir on May 15, 2015, 02:36:46 pm
Shitty proof is still proof.
For shitty people
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 02:51:26 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 15, 2015, 02:14:45 pm
These Tovi, Butan, DonNicko and Nebun conspiracy theories about US are hilarious. Zero proof, yet tons of proof about Russia... yet Russia is the victim. It's so very classically Russian thing to do.

funny how nato countries show lots of their proofs to their population, and how other countries show their proofs to their population.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 03:00:23 pm
The proof of that the Russian buk shot down the Boeing
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 03:01:40 pm
just to give u some rest from thoughts that russia will invade all europe :)

Why nobody shakes Abamas hand? FFS they prefer Medvedev - he is like personal toy of putin :)
http://9gag.com/gag/a2YgLbE?ref=android.s.email

thats how cops should be like :)
http://9gag.com/gag/aD35mwO?ref=android.s.email
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 03:05:09 pm
Putin beating kids
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 03:13:46 pm
USA gave shot-proof of russian military in Ukraine
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Just look, do you see? No? You fucking blind terrorist, russian idiot
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 03:23:37 pm
they should have asked google for shoots :)))

reality of our days
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 03:33:42 pm
https://youtu.be/CY4YREmFwUA?t=48

Poroshenko asked for Facebook to have representative office in Ukraine :)) (i think he was declined or they said maybe later)
plan for the next 2 years must be to set up twitter office, or mickey mouse party in Kiev

looks like very important thing to do when u country hits the bottom
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 04:03:27 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 15, 2015, 04:10:33 pm
You two guys flying a bit Tovi high... If you find russian "proofs" comparable to the ones against russia - you have shit-for-brains.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 04:22:57 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 15, 2015, 04:10:33 pm
You two guys flying a bit Tovi high... If you find russian "proofs" comparable to the ones against russia - you have shit-for-brains.

like those that USA found against iraq about nuclear weapons?
or those photographs of russian tanks in ukraine, that was made in georgia few years back, or adverts of army in russian tv in the past?
I guess soon there will be new photos of equipment and troops in Ukraine taken from Moscow parade. Nice footage.

 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 15, 2015, 04:38:43 pm
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on May 15, 2015, 02:29:49 pm
Fixed
Shitty proof such as Putin admitting it was Russians taking over Crimea. Utter morons like you will just keep moving the goal posts and burying your head in the sand.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 15, 2015, 04:49:49 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 04:22:57 pm
like those that USA found against iraq about nuclear weapons?
or those photographs of russian tanks in ukraine, that was made in georgia few years back, or adverts of army in russian tv in the past?
I guess soon there will be new photos of equipment and troops in Ukraine taken from Moscow parade. Nice footage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 05:01:57 pm
u idiots, nothing works for u :)
time will show who is right
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 15, 2015, 05:10:06 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on May 15, 2015, 04:49:49 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Congatulations, you at last found your illness  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 15, 2015, 05:26:59 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on May 15, 2015, 05:10:06 pm
Congatulations, you at last found your illness  :D
Sure, sure... keep telling that to yourself.
Quote from: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 05:01:57 pm
u idiots, nothing works for u :)
time will show who is right
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 15, 2015, 05:55:21 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 05:01:57 pm
u idiots, nothing works for u :)
time will show who is right

Nothing will really change. West will be roughly same and the East will still be poor. Life is hard. However we will all be dead if Russia annexes something else in Europe. Eversince the Cold War the East has predicted on "facts" how its economy will skyrocket and the dollar will collapse. In 60 years none of it happened, if anything the Eastern societies collapsed atleast 3 times everywhere, while the West still stood intact. And when we speak of morals, Russia definately does not have a highground here either.

So yea...have fun with stagnation my eastern friends. All you could do is hope that China will save you and pretend like your governments have more morals and dignity than the West, when deep down you know its not true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 15, 2015, 08:07:55 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on May 16, 2015, 12:42:36 pm
Quote from: Nebun on May 15, 2015, 05:01:57 pm
u idiots, nothing works for u :)
time will show who is right

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 16, 2015, 09:55:59 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 22, 2015, 11:22:10 am
Just to get this back on the first page...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 22, 2015, 12:04:15 pm
I knew that Kuujis will be the first who cann't wait for a long time. BTW this Nilokay Starikov is the same as Kuujis in this forum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 22, 2015, 12:11:08 pm
I knew that the first two will be Kuujis and Nicko  :P
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 22, 2015, 12:21:24 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 22, 2015, 12:11:08 pm
I knew that the first two will be Kuujis and Nicko  :P
(click to show/hide)
I just knew you two needed a little bait! BOO-hoo :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2015, 01:30:22 pm
Syria+Iraq > Oookraine
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 22, 2015, 01:51:08 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 22, 2015, 01:30:22 pm
Syria+Iraq > Oookraine
only for muricans  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 22, 2015, 03:29:13 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 22, 2015, 01:51:08 pm
only for muricans  :P

America owns the world. NWO controls everything.

If it's not for America, then NWO doesn't care. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2015, 04:16:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on May 22, 2015, 01:51:08 pm
only for muricans  :P

Syria + Iraq = Crazy chaos with Syrian Rebels fighting eachother and fighting ISIS and fighting Assad and fighting Kurds that keep growing in numbers and Kurds fighting ISIS and rebels and Assad fighting everyone plus Iranians coming there with Shia millitants and ISIS fighting everyone with their Nusra lovers and what not plus Iraq also as crazy WITH epic desert AND Americans bombing with planes too. TL;DR IT'S A CRAZY FREE FOR ALL AND EVERYONES FIGHTING EVERYONE

VS

Boring grey East Ukraine with Ukrainian military vs ''We're totally not Russians who pretend we're separatists'' separatists in a boring, grey landscape and the reason is davaj davaj davaj me think it's still Cold War and must bring back Ukraine to Soviet Union 2.0 Stalin....errrrr Pootin stronk )))))))))

This below is amazing and Ukraine situation got nothing on it. Just vodka crap.

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 Dark Red - Controlled by Iraqi government forces
 Bright Red - Controlled by Syrian Government forces
 Grey - Controlled by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
 Dark Yellow - Controlled by Iraqi Kurdistan forces
 Bright Yellow - Controlled by Syrian Kurdistan forces
 Green - Controlled by Syrian Opposition forces
 White - Controlled by al-Nusra
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 22, 2015, 08:19:12 pm
http://i.imgur.com/Pzc7RyW.gifv
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 22, 2015, 11:50:34 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 22, 2015, 04:16:27 pm
Dark Red - Controlled by Iraqi government forces
 Bright Red - Controlled by Syrian Government forces
 Grey - Controlled by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
 Dark Yellow - Controlled by Iraqi Kurdistan forces
 Bright Yellow - Controlled by Syrian Kurdistan forces
 Green - Controlled by Syrian Opposition forces
 White - Controlled by al-Nusra

 and all of them are sponsored by the muricans, boring
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Guray on May 23, 2015, 03:15:25 am
Quote from: Xant on May 22, 2015, 08:19:12 pm
http://i.imgur.com/Pzc7RyW.gifv
omg this made my day  :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 23, 2015, 08:15:11 am
Quote from: Vovka on May 22, 2015, 11:50:34 pm
and all of them are sponsored by the muricans, boring
All of them, except those sponsored by russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 23, 2015, 09:51:19 am
Quote from: Kuujis on May 23, 2015, 08:15:11 am
All of them, except those sponsored by russia.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on May 23, 2015, 11:48:57 am
Ukraine crisis: Kiev prisoners 'admit to being in Russian army' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32840502
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 23, 2015, 03:36:03 pm
Lies - tortured obviously. There are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine, dummy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 23, 2015, 09:28:33 pm
About recent events. Russia doesn't admit that Ukraine captured their spetsnaz officers. Saving prvt Ryan and Russian version: Fucking cpt Yerofeev.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on May 24, 2015, 12:27:16 am
That's nice that Nicko uses his second forum account (which is against the rules btw) to create the fake support of his own position. Shit just became real, multiaccounting on forums is a new level, gj man. I'm saying this without any proofs but who cares any way? Your country shits on its own warriors. That's one of the lowest things any nation can make. Putin will admit that they were active officers one day any way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on May 24, 2015, 12:58:13 am
Dave you are russian, and you hate russians. I think you will kill yourself one day because of the russian blood. Anyway you are stupid as always. Russian government gave a request to meet with this two russians 6 days ago, and your government said that they didn't get any. Even OSCE asked your governemnt to give a permission to visit them by russian side and your government denied it two. Or you think Russia must go to Kiev on tanks to save them, fuck how stupid you are  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 24, 2015, 08:35:04 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 24, 2015, 12:58:13 am
Dave you are russian, and you hate russians. I think you will kill yourself one day because of the russian blood. Anyway you are stupid as always. Russian government gave a request to meet with this two russians 6 days ago, and your government said that they didn't get any. Even OSCE asked your governemnt to give a permission to visit them by russian side and your government denied it two. Or you think Russia must go to Kiev on tanks to save them, fuck how stupid you are  :D
Do you need to go to Kiev to say "this guy is part of russian army, we want him back, we can exchange him with this pilot girl from Ukraine, which we illegally kidnapped and are accusing of bullshit crimes"? :) I don't think so, but then again... its russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 24, 2015, 09:21:55 am
Quote from: DonNicko on May 24, 2015, 12:58:13 am
Dave you are russian, and you hate russians. I think you will kill yourself one day because of the russian blood.

A lot of people who are part russian hate russians. Thats normal.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on May 24, 2015, 09:46:20 am
I expected Russia to get nearly no points in the ESC and then "Russia: 10 points" from Estonia.
I expected a different outcome...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 24, 2015, 10:14:36 am
Anyone who gives Russia less than 10 points in Eurovision is a fascist who is a threat to entire Europe and must be destroyed by russian tanks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on May 24, 2015, 10:43:02 am
Quote from: Tibe on May 24, 2015, 09:21:55 am
A lot of people who are part russian hate russians. Thats normal.
I don't hate, but I don't like a lot of things. Even now near my house somebody parked nissan x-trail with a sticker "Obama is asshole"   I can't imagine same thing in NY. I feel shame for them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on May 24, 2015, 11:02:42 am
I would. I think in NY you could find bunch of stickers with "Obama sucks", would find 0 with "Putin sucks" thou. The thing about the people in the West is that they hate their own countries governments so much that they dont hate anyone else. And its not agressive violent hate that produces roits and bloody revolutions, its just passive-agressive hate that goes through mockery in the media.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 24, 2015, 11:34:23 am
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/21/us-russia-internet-idUSKBN0O62H220150521
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2015, 09:08:52 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 24, 2015, 11:34:23 am
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/21/us-russia-internet-idUSKBN0O62H220150521

Quote
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People are silhouetted as they pose with laptops in front of a screen projected with a Google logo, in this picture illustration taken in Zenica October 29, 2014.
Reuters/Dado Ruvic/Files

10/10 caption of the year
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 25, 2015, 10:00:14 am
For russian speakers

and rough translation in reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/372sr3/girkin_ukraine_keeps_ahead_of_us_in_everything/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 25, 2015, 10:05:32 am
Paige 666. Avoid. Satan's watching
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 25, 2015, 10:30:13 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on May 25, 2015, 10:05:32 am
Paige 666. Avoid. Satan's watching
Where is Nebun spam when you need it... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on May 25, 2015, 03:34:05 pm
Someone updgraded russian eurovision song clip! Much success!

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Gotfrid on May 25, 2015, 08:03:58 pm
wtf!! this shit all around! In TV, internet, on games forums, on window, everywhere!
Does it make sense to discuss it?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on May 27, 2015, 10:07:44 am
Ну что там у хохлов?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Macbeth3 on May 27, 2015, 05:56:07 pm
666

*Meow* :3

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on May 31, 2015, 07:40:23 pm
Don't let this thread die!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32911702
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on May 31, 2015, 08:13:24 pm
Phaggot ^
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on May 31, 2015, 08:48:09 pm
http://europe.newsweek.com/lithuania-votes-reintroduce-military-conscription-315287

Poor ptx :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on May 31, 2015, 10:36:13 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 01, 2015, 04:18:22 am
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/05/29/internet-troll-sues-her-employer

Wonder how many of the Russians here are getting paid 800 dollars for what they write in this topic! A great job, to be sure.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 01, 2015, 05:31:23 am
ahah 800 $ for 100 comments per day ahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 01, 2015, 01:12:27 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 01, 2015, 05:31:23 am
ahah 800 $ for 100 comments per day ahahahahahaha
"The work was scheduled in shifts, each shift was 12 hours long. The employees had to write a certain amount of posts and comments on various websites."

"The salary amounted to 41,000 rubles ($776) per month."

I'm not sure what's so hard for you to understand about this. Oh wait... you're Russian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 01, 2015, 02:06:17 pm
Can you show her posts? No? Why you still believe this bullshit? Maybe because you are finnish  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on June 01, 2015, 02:10:13 pm
I mean, she's got to be pretty seriously convinced that she's been wronged to take it to court.  And for the courts to accept the case surely that means there must be some evidence else they would throw the case out?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 01, 2015, 02:17:54 pm
All Western NWO shadow government lies!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 01, 2015, 02:47:13 pm
Not surprising the Russians are denying it instantly. She's already sent out proof to several parties and taking it to court in a country where people like her get killed regularly. But of course the brainwashed Putler slaves think it's all a western plot!!!!!!!!11
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 01, 2015, 04:17:07 pm
Its a pretty proven and well known fact that China and Russia has on government pay pro-government internettrolls. Even if this case is false. The overall claim is still true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on June 01, 2015, 07:45:31 pm
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Theory/Practice.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on June 01, 2015, 10:27:45 pm
Quote from: Xant on May 31, 2015, 08:48:09 pm
http://europe.newsweek.com/lithuania-votes-reintroduce-military-conscription-315287

Poor ptx :(

Quote
inviting young men to mandatory military service

Well that sounds gay doesn't it? Besides the whole inviting/mandatory thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 02, 2015, 04:40:47 pm
Quote from: Falka on June 01, 2015, 07:45:31 pm
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Theory/Practice.

quiz: where is nicko and vovka on the bottom picture?
:D :D :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 02, 2015, 04:52:45 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on June 02, 2015, 04:40:47 pm
quiz: where is nicko and vovka on the bottom picture?
:D :D :D
Assuming, that they are different people :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 03, 2015, 09:15:37 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 03, 2015, 10:19:44 am
AlJazeera Western Puppet Media!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on June 03, 2015, 03:22:06 pm
Russian MoD faked satellite images of MH17 crash site: https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2015/05/31/how-to-find-historical-imagery-of-russias-faked-satellite-photos/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 03, 2015, 05:27:50 pm
Well, already read about several professional digital crime scene dudes who said that those Bellingcat methods are questionable and wouldn't be good enough for a court of law.
Not saying they are wrong or anything. Merely mentioning that they are not the be-all and end-all of it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 03, 2015, 11:51:48 pm
Quote from: Casimir on June 03, 2015, 03:22:06 pm
Russian MoD faked satellite images of MH17 crash site: https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2015/05/31/how-to-find-historical-imagery-of-russias-faked-satellite-photos/
Or google faked images on Google earth! conspiracy!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 04, 2015, 02:16:46 pm
Holly cow  :P
If short it'a  TV series on UA channel:

it's almost as good as idea RUinternet Cheburashka  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 04, 2015, 06:37:08 pm
SWIFT ban coming soon
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 06, 2015, 06:43:44 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 06, 2015, 12:42:41 pm
Quote from: Xant on June 06, 2015, 06:43:44 am
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Well kinda obvious even when red diploma bearer Nicko can barely connect a couple of words into a sentence that makes any sense.


BTW. "10k posts in da thread" achievement unlocked.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on June 06, 2015, 08:53:04 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=0)

More on that subject. I wouldn't be surprised if other governments did the same thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on June 08, 2015, 01:34:36 am
Here's a really nice video discussing numbers regarding wwii. It's visualizing things really well, no matter what you know about the real numbers.

I think it's a must to see:
https://vimeo.com/128373915 (https://vimeo.com/128373915)

It's a nice video, but the upbeat ending could have mentioned the killing potential of global thermonuclear war for example. Probably in the 100s of millions in first few hours, not mentioning leaving the planet an inhospitable place, potentially killing billions. Anyway, worth a watch.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 08, 2015, 06:42:14 pm
I find it sad and disturbing that a good portion of those polled do not even know who Putin is, despite the fact that he is a world leader and currently invading Ukraine.


Do the world a favor, those who voted option 4, and never vote in another American election. And no I'm honestly not trolling.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2015, 08:58:03 am
Quote from: Doom_Carrot on June 08, 2015, 06:42:14 pm
I find it sad and disturbing that a good portion of those polled do not even know who Putin is, despite the fact that he is a world leader and currently invading Ukraine.
Do the world a favor, those who voted option 4, and never vote in another American election. And no I'm honestly not trolling.  :rolleyes:
you're not the smartest guy right? muricans?
Quote from: Doom_Carrot on June 08, 2015, 06:42:14 pm
And no I'm honestly not trolling.  :rolleyes:
gtfo then  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 09, 2015, 10:22:15 am
Quote from: Doom_Carrot on June 08, 2015, 06:42:14 pm
I find it sad and disturbing that a good portion of those polled do not even know who Putin is, despite the fact that he is a world leader and currently invading Ukraine.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on June 09, 2015, 12:25:26 pm

most appropriate thread where to post this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on June 09, 2015, 12:27:09 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 09, 2015, 01:48:32 pm
Quote from: Paul on June 09, 2015, 12:27:09 pm
(click to show/hide)
fake! Putin does not cast a shadow  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 09, 2015, 01:53:16 pm
Quote from: Paul on June 09, 2015, 12:27:09 pm
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Quote from: darmaster on June 09, 2015, 12:25:26 pm
(click to show/hide)

"Oppaaa!"
"Oppaaa!"
"vodkaaa!"
"vodkaaa?"
"vodkaaa!"
"vodkaaa!"  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Doom_Carrot on June 10, 2015, 02:53:29 am
Quote from: Vovka on June 09, 2015, 08:58:03 am
you're not the smartest guy right? muricans?gtfo then  :P

Where did I say that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 10, 2015, 05:58:58 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 10, 2015, 07:50:33 am
Just more Western propogondo, obviously.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 10, 2015, 09:28:22 am
omg those are no soldiers, those are just some random dudes on vacation :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 10, 2015, 11:33:46 pm

Russian volunteers preparing for the invasion of Congo and Somalia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on June 11, 2015, 06:49:16 am
thats racist you fascists. :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 11, 2015, 10:10:34 am
Quote from: Mala on June 11, 2015, 06:49:16 am
thats racist you fascists. :P
it's not possible because Iam not German  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 12, 2015, 12:28:49 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 12, 2015, 12:55:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 12, 2015, 12:28:49 pm
Yes, why is Russia still invading Ukraine and causing this?

Truly retarded propaganda, and of course Russians like Nicko eat it up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 12, 2015, 03:33:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 12, 2015, 12:28:49 pm

When he said "Europe and America supporting this..." I just laughed. It was very obvious they just hired a guy to do an english accent sad story. And when someone has an english accent like that it sounds like they were trying to recreate a BBC report. I mean common. America supporting this? AMERICA? You mean Argentina, Chilie, Brazil, Cuba, Mexico etc..?

And I dont really understand what he wants? Everyone to stop? Soooooo we should stop supporting Kiev and let Russia drive in there with their tanks and install their own puppet government? Or let the separatists claim 80% of Ukr territory? I dont seriuslly understand how are we supposed to stop it. Kiev at this point is not going to advance any further. They are in defensive now. They are even pretty close to letting Donbass be.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on June 12, 2015, 08:23:31 pm
thats graham phillips, he is from the uk actually and works as reporter for russia today.
he is quite famous among the seperatists and russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 12, 2015, 08:31:03 pm
Yeah, what a shocking surprise that it's a reporter working for Russia Today making that crap.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 13, 2015, 03:46:58 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 13, 2015, 04:07:36 pm
I found something wierd:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 14, 2015, 07:00:14 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 14, 2015, 08:15:17 pm
Boy, they really like to staple everything that displeases them as USA dont they. :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on June 15, 2015, 11:26:57 pm
more evil propaganda (i am too lazy to check all of the facts)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=773&v=R5aDgRb2jzQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=773&v=R5aDgRb2jzQ)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Knute on June 16, 2015, 08:10:12 pm

I think the majority of the Russian people support their government invading Ukraine so what's the point of Putin lying to the Russian people on TV about it? He already lied about sending troops in to Crimea and then admitted it so what's the point? He doesn't have any credibility with the international community at this point so why even bother keeping up the charade? He's basically like the kid with sprinkles all over his face:

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 16, 2015, 08:22:38 pm
A lot of people still believe his lies, even with all the proof. See this thread for some of them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 16, 2015, 09:03:42 pm
Unfortunately yea. You could rack up a lot of evidence, he can even say that they did it. Does not matter at all. They will still support him til the end, cause USA is more evil and it will be the end of it. They will honest to god just throw they heads deep in the sand and just yell bad things at murica.

After extensively writing in this thread ive calmed down a lot about the subject. Their claims and "official reports" go beond common sense(its not just lying anymore, its batshit fantasyland logic. Im pretty sure somewhere in those documents theres "evidence" that USA is responsible for solar eclipses :lol:), so it's completely irrelevant what they think and say. They can yell and speculate the collapse of everything they dont like and the rise of their own wealth, like they have for many decades now. It's not gonna come... Their facts are flawed and opinions based on them are worthless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 16, 2015, 09:19:38 pm
Quote from: Tibe on June 16, 2015, 09:03:42 pm
Unfortunately yea. You could rack up a lot of evidence, he can even say that they did it. Does not matter at all. They will still support him til the end, cause USA is more evil and it will be the end of it. They will honest to god just throw they heads deep in the sand and just yell bad things at murica.

Yes, retards in this thread were going "NO RUSSIAN SOLDIERS IN CRIMEA!! IDJOT!! PUTIN SAY SO!! AMERICAN PROPAGANDA!!! HOME RESISTANCE TROOPS ONLY!!"

... And then Putin admits they were Russian soldiers and these people just pretend it never happened and moved onto new topics. Tovi's favorite tactic, actually: making ridiculous claims and when they get 100% disproven he ignores it ever happened and makes more ridiculous claims.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Knute on June 16, 2015, 09:29:16 pm
People only lie when they're doing something wrong or illegal. My guess is he's only doing it so he can claim plausible deniability if charged with war crimes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 16, 2015, 09:40:42 pm
On his own soil and aslong as he's in office, he's own people will claim plausible deniability anyway, wether he admits it or not. Again quite irrelevant. The main reason he wont, is so he can stack up on temporary allies. Like Greece for example, who has been really trying to woo the East, since Europe hates it now. If he admitted it, Greeces own people would force their government to cease communications and for a really solid reason of being friends with massmurderers. Right now, since there really isnt a solid reason(depends who you ask) and everything is plausible, the governments who support his reqime, get less foreign hate and internal hate.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 17, 2015, 10:39:00 am
WELL... FML, no content here :P  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 17, 2015, 11:10:09 am
Look up a few posts, it's already here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Clockworkkiller on June 17, 2015, 09:46:39 pm
Penis
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on June 18, 2015, 03:55:33 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 18, 2015, 11:28:29 am
DNR army eats dogs. Funny though that the accent is typical Russian, those don't even speak like locals and look like typical drug addicts. One of them might have a silver medal and a red diploma of Russian economical university.


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 18, 2015, 12:36:46 pm
Я слышал слово поребрик!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 18, 2015, 01:04:33 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 18, 2015, 11:28:29 am
DNR army eats dogs. Funny though that the accent is typical Russian, those don't even speak like locals and look like typical drug addicts. One of them might have a silver medal and a red diploma of Russian economical university.


I think these are the EXTREME far easterners from russians eastern coasts... I believe there are few cultures, where eating dogs is accepted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 18, 2015, 04:20:02 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 18, 2015, 01:04:33 pm
I think these are the EXTREME far easterners from russians eastern coasts... I believe there are few cultures, where eating dogs is accepted.
I believe eating dogs is accepted in any cultures after 3 days without food  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 18, 2015, 07:51:39 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on June 18, 2015, 05:30:47 pm
I'd eat a dog after 3 hours, if I were hongry
...but only if its a hot dog and with mustard. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on June 18, 2015, 08:04:25 pm
poor cobaka :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 03:01:36 pm
The chief military prosecutor of Ukraine Anatoly Matios told that the prosecutors study contents of electronic media of fighters of a batalion "Tornado". In particular, it is about mobile phones.
"We study contents of phones of "tornadovets" and we find there not only video of tortures and rapes about which we reported earlier, but also it is a lot of other interesting records. Video of crimes. I will frankly tell – acts, absolutely wild for ordinary people" — Matios told today, on June 19, during a briefing which broadcast the 112th channel.

"The man in the school cellar where "Tornado" is based was chained to an apparatus, raped in the unnatural way then killed. It is heavy to me to speak about it. But we know at least about 10 people over whom "tornadovets" made similar actions" — told Matios.

As for the commander of a company Onishchenko, the prosecutor noted that "in his life there was a tragic experience of criminal prosecution five times that speaks about recurrence".

"I and my colleagues saw a lot of war for the last year. But we were shocked. That we saw on video of "tornadovets", simply turned our consciousness" — the military prosecutor stated.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 19, 2015, 03:11:36 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 03:01:36 pm
The chief military prosecutor of Ukraine Anatoly Matios told that the prosecutors study contents of electronic media of fighters of a batalion "Tornado". In particular, it is about mobile phones.
"We study contents of phones of "tornadovets" and we find there not only video of tortures and rapes about which we reported earlier, but also it is a lot of other interesting records. Video of crimes. I will frankly tell – acts, absolutely wild for ordinary people" — Matios told today, on June 19, during a briefing which broadcast the 112th channel.

"The man in the school cellar where "Tornado" is based was chained to an apparatus, raped in the unnatural way then killed. It is heavy to me to speak about it. But we know at least about 10 people over whom "tornadovets" made similar actions" — told Matios.

As for the commander of a company Onishchenko, the prosecutor noted that "in his life there was a tragic experience of criminal prosecution five times that speaks about recurrence".

"I and my colleagues saw a lot of war for the last year. But we were shocked. That we saw on video of "tornadovets", simply turned our consciousness" — the military prosecutor stated.
here his photo during morning exercises outdoors
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on June 19, 2015, 03:48:20 pm
Western ideals creeping closer to Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 19, 2015, 03:58:52 pm
So, a chief military prosecutor of Ukraine is looking into crimes committed by Ukrainian troops.

Do separatists investigate the crimes of their troops? Do Russian prosecutors investigate the crimes of Russian troops?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 04:11:16 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on June 19, 2015, 03:58:52 pm
So, a chief military prosecutor of Ukraine is looking into crimes committed by Ukrainian troops.

Do separatists investigate the crimes of their troops? Do Russian prosecutors investigate the crimes of Russian troops?
Yes they do, you can find that on the official site of DNR for example.
Interesting that prosecutors knew about this batalion a lot of time before. And they arrested they just after "Tornado" stopped one of the ukranian train. There is a lot of crimes made by other batallions.
Yesterday two ukrainian sodier killed mother and her daughter because of separatism
Also one man from batallion was arrested, because he killed a young family from Donbass and their car.
That's is only what Ukrainian government decided to show.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 19, 2015, 07:58:39 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 04:11:16 pm
Yes they do, you can find that on the official site of DNR for example.
Interesting that prosecutors knew about this batalion a lot of time before. And they arrested they just after "Tornado" stopped one of the ukranian train. There is a lot of crimes made by other batallions.
Yesterday two ukrainian sodier killed mother and her daughter because of separatism
Also one man from batallion was arrested, because he killed a young family from Donbass and their car.
That's is only what Ukrainian government decided to show.

Meanwhile Russia is still denying their involvement in Donbass fights lol. Go eat a dog.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 08:05:22 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 19, 2015, 07:58:39 pm
Meanwhile Russia is still denying their involvement in Donbass fights lol. Go eat a dog.
I would better eat a dog than kill people and rob them as you, stupid nazi  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 19, 2015, 08:09:25 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 08:05:22 pm
I would better eat a dog then kill people and rob them as you, stupid nazi  :lol:

 :lol: You red diploma fool, read what you post, use English dictionary if you fail without it. Well, maybe you mean it as what you wrote describes what your beloved DNR idiots do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 09:16:02 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 19, 2015, 08:09:25 pm
:lol: You red diploma fool, read what you post, use English dictionary if you fail without it. Well, maybe you mean it as what you wrote describes what your beloved DNR idiots do.
lol, anyway you understood what I meant. I already know how you act. You are just one of those who looks how people were burnt and then says it doesn't matter. Who is shouting Slava Ukraine Smert Vragam on very good english.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 19, 2015, 10:08:23 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 09:16:02 pm
lol, anyway you understood what I meant. I already know how you act. You are just one of those who looks how people were burnt and then says it doesn't matter. Who is shouting Slava Ukraine Smert Vragam on very good english.
Dude... you forgot the crucified kid and that other pogrom, proof of which are only visible to ruskies... At least you delivered on the Odessa fire reference!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on June 19, 2015, 11:15:26 pm
It is however a bit strange Vovka, that you are questioning what the Ukrainians are hiding, while Russia is denying their whole involvement in the conflict. I mean, creating it in the first place and stuff. Being ultimately responsible for the tragedy that is playing out.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 19, 2015, 11:36:06 pm
Quote from: Thomek on June 19, 2015, 11:15:26 pm
It is however a bit strange Vovka, that you are questioning what the Ukrainians are hiding, while Russia is denying their whole involvement in the conflict. I mean, creating it in the first place and stuff. Being ultimately responsible for the tragedy that is playing out.
It's not true until Putin says so, and after he does well, the US does it too so it's fine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 20, 2015, 12:21:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 19, 2015, 04:11:16 pm
Yes they do, you can find that on the official site of DNR for example.
Interesting that prosecutors knew about this batalion a lot of time before. And they arrested they just after "Tornado" stopped one of the ukranian train. There is a lot of crimes made by other batallions.
Yesterday two ukrainian sodier killed mother and her daughter because of separatism
Also one man from batallion was arrested, because he killed a young family from Donbass and their car.
That's is only what Ukrainian government decided to show.
Where exactly are the Russian prosecutors investigating the behavior of Russian soldiers? Because, last i heard, "there are no Russian soldiers involved". :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2015, 12:50:22 am
I didn't know you could kill a car.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 08:40:00 am
Quote from: [ptx] on June 20, 2015, 12:21:58 am
Where exactly are the Russian prosecutors investigating the behavior of Russian soldiers? Because, last i heard, "there are no Russian soldiers involved". :rolleyes:
Even if they are involved, they don't act like murders and robbers as ukrainian army does. About last crime in LNR read here http://dnr-news.com/dnr/21835-vinovnyy-v-dtp-v-luganske-otvetit-po-vsey-strogosti-zakona-zamgenprokurora.html. Sarcasm is not yours, sorry.

Quote from: Kuujis on June 19, 2015, 10:08:23 pm
Dude... you forgot the crucified kid and that other pogrom, proof of which are only visible to ruskies... At least you delivered on the Odessa fire reference!
You are so stupid Kuujis, nobody believes in this cricified kid, many times told that on the forum. Pogrom is pogrom, I think nobody was killed only beaten. And nobody was arrested. As in Odessa massacre. So seems that you are blind a little.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on June 20, 2015, 09:48:42 am
Sure they don't, DonNicko, they are such widely known angels, after all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 10:16:48 am
I know you will be so glad Dave to see as you call this people bydlo crying
get a fun and some others with you, who protects this shellings
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2015, 10:55:32 am
It's so hard to read the stuff written here and not go on an insult-rampage... Holy shit...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 11:03:28 am
Interesesting what do you think serr about this shellings, because I know what Bydlohater thinks
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 20, 2015, 11:59:42 am
Oh, come on, I arealy explained that several times, same as Dave, and iirc we have rather similar opinion on it.

It is war. Fucking war where both sides have and use heavy artillery. Given that, casualties among civilians are inevitable. And it shouldn't surprise you. If you want to know when will it stop - you should discuss political situation - possible compromises(although I don't see any at the moment), what is real goal of Russia in this war, what could Ukraine possibly agree for, economical situation in LDNR, Ukraine and Russia - those are factors that decide how long will this war go on. But while it is going on - people will keep dying and suffering.

Or you can watch some more emotional videos from Shariy, get holy rage at those nazіs, come to Donetsk and shoot with artillery from within city, raging even more when response will kill some civilians who lived just next to your position and blaming ukrainians, EU and americans for that, but not yourself and not those who gave you cannon and orders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 12:22:40 pm
Quote from: serr on June 20, 2015, 11:59:42 am
Oh, come on, I arealy explained that several times, same as Dave, and iirc we have rather similar opinion on it.

It is war. Fucking war where both sides have and use heavy artillery. Given that, casualties among civilians are inevitable. And it shouldn't surprise you. If you want to know when will it stop - you should discuss political situation - possible compromises(although I don't see any at the moment), what is real goal of Russia in this war, what could Ukraine possibly agree for, economical situation in LDNR, Ukraine and Russia - those are factors that decide how long will this war go on. But while it is going on - people will keep dying and suffering.

Or you can watch some more emotional videos from Shariy, get holy rage at those nazіs, come to Donetsk and shoot with artillery from within city, raging even more when response will kill some civilians who lived just next to your position and blaming ukrainians, EU and americans for that, but not yourself and not those who gave you cannon and orders.
Do you really think that it was in response? Do you watch what people say in DLNR after this shellings? Or you think like your TV that all this shellings were made by themselves? If you would do, then you would find that there wasn't any LDNR army. OK, I found out what you think, you also agreed about bydlo in Donbass in previous messages
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on June 20, 2015, 12:26:44 pm
Sadly, you completely missed my point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 12:43:45 pm
Quote from: serr on June 20, 2015, 12:26:44 pm
Sadly, you completely missed my point.
Well maybe, but only saw how you blame Russia, and defend those shelling like one post before
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on June 20, 2015, 02:05:30 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 12:43:45 pm
Well maybe, but only saw how you blame Russia, and defend those shelling like one post before

im not sure we read the same post
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 20, 2015, 02:58:30 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 12:43:45 pm
Well maybe, but only saw how you blame Russia, and defend those shelling like one post before

Well...yeah. It is war. OSCE has cofirmed that the LDNR has bombed civilians aswell and purposly broken ceasefires. But so has Ukr army. Both sides have done shit. But you believe that the evil nazi Kiev army is making concentration camps, hailing Hitler and planning massgenocides. Which is bullshit. You have to see that atleast.

No war would be happening, if Russian weapons and russian troops were in Russia and not in Ukrainian soil. So ofcourse we mainly blame Russia. Why are those foreign weapons and people in Ukraine? What bad would Kiev(or West) do to the people of Donetsk? Nothing. If you actually believe this "ban russian language" or this anti-nazi fight propaganda, than you are retarded.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on June 20, 2015, 03:45:25 pm
The Ban russian language education thing was a natural reaction from fractions in the UKR parliament, and it was stopped and never made into law. If anything RF, by its actions has increased anti russian sentiment across all states with russian minorities, AFTERWARDS. Exactly because this is what Putin wants. He is thriving on, and constructing hate towards Russians to complete the insane picture of alone little russia against evil west and US.

Vovka, look around you. See the disastrous, non functioning, horrible society, of lies and thieves and inequality that surrounds you. Putin is trying to justify that using the oldest trick in the book. Start a war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2015, 04:18:42 pm
Nicko is right. How could he not be? Having purple-with-green-dots diploma in red and all that. He sees and argues the truth!

Praz!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 20, 2015, 05:05:54 pm
Quote from: Thomek on June 20, 2015, 03:45:25 pm
The Ban russian language education thing was a natural reaction from fractions in the UKR parliament, and it was stopped and never made into law. If anything RF, by its actions has increased anti russian sentiment across all states with russian minorities, AFTERWARDS. Exactly because this is what Putin wants. He is thriving on, and constructing hate towards Russians to complete the insane picture of alone little russia against evil west and US.

Vovka, look around you. See the disastrous, non functioning, horrible society, of lies and thieves and inequality that surrounds you. Putin is trying to justify that using the oldest trick in the book. Start a war.
why u keep talking with me )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on June 20, 2015, 06:21:13 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 20, 2015, 05:05:54 pm
why u keep talking with me )
He didn't know you quit your job.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 20, 2015, 07:05:18 pm
Quote from: Paul on June 20, 2015, 06:21:13 pm
He didn't know you quit your job.
These bastards have not paid me for the previous 300 posts  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2015, 07:50:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 08:40:00 am
Even if they are involved, they don't act like murders and robbers as ukrainian army does.
And how the fuck would you know, exactly, you massive hypocrite? I seem to recall the Russian army doing plenty of war crimes in their wars.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on June 20, 2015, 08:08:57 pm
wow. just wow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:01:00 pm
Quote from: Xant on June 20, 2015, 07:50:01 pm
And how the fuck would you know, exactly, you massive hypocrite? I seem to recall the Russian army doing plenty of war crimes in their wars.
I don't say about previous wars. Try to show me where russian army robbed or killed somebody in Donbass for money. And I will show you alot of from ukranians
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 20, 2015, 09:22:59 pm
Thats just it. Its not like they admit they are russian army. We cant tell the difference. Theres been shittons of crime in Donbass and in the general conflict area. People being murdered for their cars by masked bandits and thrown into random graves etc etc. Nobody really gives a shit, cause nobody knows who they are. Russian army? Donbass separatists? Ukrainians? Local gangsters? Nobody knows. The separatists(mybe donbass, mybe russian army, again cant tell) were caught on tape multiple times, robbing carstores.

You thinking that the russian army has not robbed or killed somebody in Donbass for money shows exactly how blind you are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2015, 09:30:18 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:01:00 pm
I don't say about previous wars. Try to show me where russian army robbed or killed somebody in Donbass for money. And I will show you alot of from ukranians
How would we know where Russians have done this because Putin doesn't acknowledge their presence = doesn't announce anything to the public, perhaps and likely isn't even investigating them. The only reason you can show any from Ukrainians is that they are acknowledging and punishing for these crimes, otherwise all you'd have is hearsay from potential propaganda pieces.

Russian stupidity never ceases to amaze me. It's like you have blinders on when it comes to anything to do with Russia or Russians. No, not Russia! We would never! Well, in every last war we have, but surely not in this one! Because Putin hasn't said so! Nevermind the fact Putin couldn't say anything without admitting his lie.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:39:20 pm
That is it, what I always tried to show, even if it is already proved that ukrainian soldiers kill, kidnap and rob people. Even I show you the exact video. You always try to defend them. And then you call me blind. I know that there are some volunteers from Russia with criminal past, and I know that they robbed some people. And they were punished for that. And I don't defend them like you. If they did a crime they must answer for it. That's the difference
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2015, 09:41:01 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:39:20 pm
That is it, what I always tried to show, even if it is already proved that ukrainian soldiers kill, kidnap and rob people. Even I show you the exact video. You always try to defend them. And then you call me blind. I know that there are some volunteers from Russia with criminal past, and I know that they robbed some people. And they were punished for that. And I don't defend them like you. If they did a crime they must answer for it. That's the difference
What the fuck are you talking about? You're seriously deluded -- have you considered going out of Russia and getting checked by some competent Western trained doctor so you can get medication for your condition?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:47:38 pm
Quote from: Xant on June 20, 2015, 09:41:01 pm
What the fuck are you talking about? You're seriously deluded -- have you considered going out of Russia and getting checked by some competent Western trained doctor so you can get medication for your condition?
Go if you want. It so clear, because when I showed a video with exact crimes from ukrainian side, you just ignored it or defended it. that's all.
interesting video of puppet German
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 20, 2015, 09:54:09 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:39:20 pm
That is it, what I always tried to show, even if it is already proved that ukrainian soldiers kill, kidnap and rob people. Even I show you the exact video. You always try to defend them. And then you call me blind. I know that there are some volunteers from Russia with criminal past, and I know that they robbed some people. And they were punished for that. And I don't defend them like you. If they did a crime they must answer for it. That's the difference

Ackowledging the fact != defend the fact or reasons why one thing or another happened. Obama recently spoke of facts, that racial tensions and gun problems are not gone in US, and that they are there and thats a fact. Does that mean he defends them? You fail to grasp, that even if you do not agree with all that Ukrainian army is doing - they still are defending their country and majority are normal people, whereas russian green-bundle of sticks-men coupled with laughing-stock-journalists (a.k.a. propogandists) are fucking invaders CREATING an artificial war which no-one needs (well - except putler, to keep his cleptocracy going).

Quote from: Vovka on June 20, 2015, 07:05:18 pm
These bastards have not paid me for the previous 300 posts  :P
That was very very open of you, I salute you! Make a BBC documentary now, they will pay you  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 10:03:55 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on June 20, 2015, 09:54:09 pm
Ackowledging the fact != defend the fact or reasons why one thing or another happened. Obama recently spoke of facts, that racial tensions and gun problems are not gone in US, and that they are there and thats a fact. Does that mean he defends them? You fail to grasp, that even if you do not agree with all that Ukrainian army is doing - they still are defending their country and majority are normal people, whereas russian green-bundle of sticks-men coupled with laughing-stock-journalists (a.k.a. propogandists) are fucking invaders CREATING an artificial war which no-one needs (well - except putler, to keep his cleptocracy going).
Kuujis, how many times I need to say to you and you will get. Just say how many times. I said many times perviously that I disagree with Putin's actions in Crimea. I don't agree with joining of Crimea, I don't believe in crossified childrens and so on, are you really so stupid. I tried to show what crimes ukrainian army did. About what Obama said, he said about the problem in USA. That's all. When I show you a problem, what is your reactions. you start blame Russia. So logical as always. I can understand that serr or dave defends this actions, but why you defend this crimes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2015, 10:11:14 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:47:38 pm
Go if you want. It so clear, because when I showed a video with exact crimes from ukrainian side, you just ignored it or defended it. that's all.
interesting video of puppet German
(click to show/hide)
You know what the huuuuge different here is?
Those journalists asking those questions won't turn up dead in a few weeks and neither will they end up in prison for asking :wink:

Damn, I should probably feel bad for living here :(
The society of my country is really bad, I guess!  :cry:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2015, 10:17:48 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:47:38 pm
Go if you want. It so clear, because when I showed a video with exact crimes from ukrainian side, you just ignored it or defended it. that's all.
interesting video of puppet German
(click to show/hide)
When have I defended it? When has anyone defended Ukrainians raping or robbing civilians? Show me. It's one big massive red herring anyway, you constantly try to turn the attention away from Russians. Case in point, you've completely dropped the subject of Russian soldiers in Ukraine again and only talk about Ukrainians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 10:18:36 pm
Quote from: Molly on June 20, 2015, 10:11:14 pm
You know what the huuuuge different here is?
Those journalists asking those questions won't turn up dead in a few weeks and neither will they end up in prison for asking :wink:

Damn, I should probably feel bad for living here :(
The society of my country is really bad, I guess!  :cry:
Journalists in Russia too, and I can say we have a lot of them. But usually our TV don't show them, I think as yours. And you can find them only on youtube. Don't cry Molly, you have good soceity and good people, really. your problem is that your government licks USA's balls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2015, 10:40:03 pm
Oh look, Nicko ignores my post when I ask him to actually show proof. What a surprise.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on June 20, 2015, 10:59:26 pm
Nicko.. I once was a US hater, when I was a teenager.

My professor in my class "society studies" (smth like that) asked me what music I had on my walkman (!! long time ago)

It was Foo Fighters, and Rage Against the Machine.  :D  (That's 2 American bands FYI.)

I felt very stupid at that point. How can I both hate US, while I identify with US youth culture??

Simple point, but very valid, and very true when taken to the end.

If it wasn't obvious enough, the US produces tonnes and tonnes of both good and bad stuff. Like it or not, you have to acknowledge that their cultural, production, scientific prowess is unmatched in the world. I think one can safely say that it's the one country that leads the rest of the world when it comes to many fields. Yes, they also have many problems, with mentality, with guns, with their international wars. Even so, you have to give them a lot credit for what they achieve.

I know it's hard to have 2 ideas in the head at the same time, but the world is not simple, and It's necessary to keep your mind open. Now, ofc Russia ALSO have their writers, their composers, their poets and their pop music. Just that right now, today, Russian cultural and political thinking is without any power whatsoever.

People that hate the US and everything it is, are usually hypocrites who love to watch "The Godfather" on TV, alone at night. That movie was created in a country, in a context, by Americans, in the US. I'm sorry to say so, I sound like US patriot, but the US  IS - Undisputedly, the greatest country on Earth, by most measures.

Now I still think there are huge problems, and great retardation there too. In the end though, I think RF has more to learn from US than the other way around. History has left the RF system in the dust. You need a new one.

Thats what Ukraine understood, and I think Russians also understand deep down somewhere. The humiliation of being "a nation once great" is mentally forcing you to choose sides. Americans would be in same situation, had the RF system been superior.

It is not superior however, even your brothers, the Ukrainians are turning their backs to you.

When are you going to realize yourselves?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 21, 2015, 06:28:09 am
To Xant
I said ignore or defend, Xant
(click to show/hide)
So you tried to defend her by blaming Russia or ignored it. Or wait maybe you blame people like that?

To Thomek
Well, first of all I'm not USA hater. I don't like their politics. Second try to imagine that USA bomb just killed your parents by mistake of course. Will you say that USA have great culture and you like their music?
Not all Ukraine turned back to Russia. You just don't want to see what really happening in Donbass. Many millions of ukrainians worked in Russia and paid taxes to Ukraine before conflict.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 21, 2015, 07:14:02 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 20, 2015, 09:39:20 pm
That is it, what I always tried to show, even if it is already proved that ukrainian soldiers kill, kidnap and rob people. Even I show you the exact video. You always try to defend them. And then you call me blind. I know that there are some volunteers from Russia with criminal past, and I know that they robbed some people. And they were punished for that. And I don't defend them like you. If they did a crime they must answer for it. That's the difference

We didnt defend anyone. We just claimed that both sides do crimes. What makes you think the russians who do crimes awnser for them? It is more possible that their crimes are completely being covered up by the russian government.

Quote from: DonNicko on June 21, 2015, 06:28:09 am
Well, first of all I'm not USA hater. I don't like their politics. Second try to imagine that USA bomb just killed your parents by mistake of course. Will you say that USA have great culture and you like their music?

lol. How is USAs great culture and music related to their bombinghabits? Their shitty foreign politics is mainly related to their poor judgement concering the Middle East. The main reason why they interfere is because they thought that they are the only ones that could. USA has legitimately stopped massgenocides and given democracy for some countries. It has also fucked up some yes. How many countries has Russia or China ever helped? 0.  And from all the countries in the planet USA gives the most foreign aid to help other countries. How many countries(that have nothing to do with russians) has Russia helped? 0. It doesnt ever even talk to them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 21, 2015, 07:36:12 am
Quote from: Tibe on June 21, 2015, 07:14:02 am
We didnt defend anyone. We just claimed that both sides do crimes. What makes you think the russians who do crimes awnser for them? It is more possible that their crimes are completely being covered up by the russian government.

lol. How is USAs great culture and music related to their bombinghabits? Their shitty foreign politics is mainly related to their poor judgement concering the Middle East. The main reason why they interfere is because they thought that they are the only ones that could. USA has legitimately stopped massgenocides and given democracy for some countries. It has also fucked up some yes. How many countries has Russia or China ever helped? 0.  And from all the countries in the planet USA gives the most foreign aid to help other countries. How many countries(that have nothing to do with russians) has Russia helped? 0. It doesnt ever even talk to them.
Again I said, that you defend or ignore the facts of Ukrainian shellings. Just today there were shelling from Mariupol. People ask why Ukraine shelled them, while there wasn't any army of DLNR. I think you should visit Donbass, because you can't understand it anyhow. Or maybe just don't want.
Tibe, if I will show you where Russia helped to another countries, will you say that you are a lier, who don't know the history because he is just too stupid
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 21, 2015, 09:02:42 am
How do I defend or ignore facts related to the shellings? I didnt defend Ukraine. I didnt defend the separatists. I didnt defend anyone related to the bombings. Those shellings are ACCIDENTAL! The separatists have bombed streets full of civilians by accident and the Ukraine has done the same. But they are not shelling them on purpose. Seriuslly. Learn english. I think you are completely misunderstanding everything i am writing. Because i have stated like 20 times in this thread now that I dont support Ukrainian army either. Because they are fucking up too much aswell. But the main thing I disaprove is the russian weapons and soldiers on Ukrainian soil and than them claiming its the West that is making things worse. Wat?

I mean Russia helped some other country in modern times. When did that happen? It has not. Russia "helped" Syria for example only because it felt like arguing with USA. And when USA decided not to interfere, Russia absolutely abandoned Syria. Your country is never going to talk with Syria again. The only reason Russia ever "helps" or aids anyone is only if it can argue with USA. No other reason.

Russia does not exsist on this planet to create a safe and stable home for russians. Russia and russians only exsist to argue with the West and nothing else. Even your own posts say the same story.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 21, 2015, 09:07:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 21, 2015, 06:28:09 am
To Xant
I said ignore or defend, Xant
(click to show/hide)
So you tried to defend her by blaming Russia or ignored it. Or wait maybe you blame people like that?

Good god, you wouldn't pass an elementary school outside of Russia. That is in no way "defending her." And since I commented on it I didn't ignore it. Hard concepts? But literally no one cares about crap like that when there's a war going on. It's like posting about the fact that while Charlie Hebdo was attacked someone got a speeding ticket two blocks down the road. But again, you're Russian, so you latch onto anything other than Russia's part in all this (hint: the biggest part.)

Also, you never answered how you know Russian military isn't committing war crimes in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 21, 2015, 10:44:20 am
Quote from: Xant on June 21, 2015, 09:07:07 am
Also, you never answered how you know Russian military isn't committing war crimes in Ukraine.
cos there is no russian military in Ukrain u stupid monkey!  :P
soo no troops no crimes u are sooo stupid
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 21, 2015, 11:01:33 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 21, 2015, 10:44:20 am
cos there is no russian military in Ukrain u stupid monkey!  :P
soo no troops no crimes u are sooo stupid

But there are some certain Ukrainian military units that used to base in Crimea. And if Russia considers Crimea as a part of it, basically means that Russia is shelling Donbass. Russian military shells Russian military.

#SaveRussianArmyFromRussianArmy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 21, 2015, 11:58:23 pm
waiting for this german film
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/movie-ukrainian-agony-the-concealed-war#/story
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 22, 2015, 12:42:28 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 21, 2015, 11:58:23 pm
waiting for this german film
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/movie-ukrainian-agony-the-concealed-war#/story

Somehow I'm not even surprised. Just another Tovi-retard who works for Kremlin money. Ofc you're waiting for this (underline 10 times so it's really pointed out that it's not Russian but German) film.
You really are an idiot. And for idiots like you there is a version in Russian. Really. A movie made by German about Ukraine: in English and Russian.

Your butt buddy who is going to make this movie.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 22, 2015, 04:56:53 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 21, 2015, 11:58:23 pm
waiting for this german film
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/movie-ukrainian-agony-the-concealed-war#/story
Waiting for you to answer how you know Russian soldiers aren't committing war crimes in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 22, 2015, 07:28:27 am
Talk about blind Nicko. Everybody else is a nazi, but your president and others in the government shake hands with extremely nationalistic bikergangs. Its been pretty obivous for a very long time that Russia does not choose its allies. It just becomes instant friends with absolutely everyone who despises USA or is willing to wave a russian flag.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 22, 2015, 08:29:32 am
Quote from: Xant on June 22, 2015, 04:56:53 am
Waiting for you to answer how you know Russian soldiers aren't committing war crimes in Ukraine.
Didn't find where they had done that. Maybe you will find out. And Vovka answered to you.

Quote from: Tibe on June 22, 2015, 07:28:27 am
Talk about blind Nicko. Everybody else is a nazi, but your president and others in the government shake hands with extremely nationalistic bikergangs. Its been pretty obivous for a very long time that Russia does not choose its allies. It just becomes instant friends with absolutely everyone who despises USA or is willing to wave a russian flag.
Same as USA. At least this biker doesn't wear any nazi symbols like on the video, but yes he is stupid and against USA government
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 22, 2015, 08:36:39 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on June 22, 2015, 12:42:28 am
Somehow I'm not even surprised. Just another Tovi-retard who works for Kremlin money. Ofc you're waiting for this (underline 10 times so it's really pointed out that it's not Russian but German) film.
You really are an idiot. And for idiots like you there is a version in Russian. Really. A movie made by German about Ukraine: in English and Russian.
Oh no, such wierd propoganda. I think that Bydlohaters like you won't even notice when "Tornado" will fuck you in the ass, and your president will shit in your ears. The only think you can do is to blame russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 22, 2015, 08:55:58 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 22, 2015, 08:29:32 am
Didn't find where they had done that. Maybe you will find out. And Vovka answered to you.
You didn't answer how you know they haven't committed war crimes in Ukraine. Vovka did not answer me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on June 22, 2015, 09:09:42 am
Quote from: Xant on June 22, 2015, 08:55:58 am
You didn't answer how you know they haven't committed war crimes in Ukraine. Vovka did not answer me.
I suppose they haven't.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on June 22, 2015, 09:15:34 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 22, 2015, 09:09:42 am
I suppose they haven't.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on June 22, 2015, 11:03:00 am
Quote from: DonNicko on June 22, 2015, 09:09:42 am
I suppose they haven't.

....

It's quite obvious we are blind and propagaded because we accept the very logical fact that in fucking WAR all sides inevitably cause some war crimes. "They havent" is definately not a right awnser.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Putin_Akbar on June 22, 2015, 11:05:47 am
I'm Putin and Ukraine = Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 22, 2015, 11:36:18 am
Quote from: Putin_Akbar on June 22, 2015, 11:05:47 am
I'm Putin and Ukraine = Russia
Ukraine is the Russian territory illegally occupied by separatists since 1991, learn history  :twisted:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 22, 2015, 03:26:05 pm
how long till swift ban? my personal bet is September.

i'm permanently pissed off by nothing doing, but its still better than before ww2, now at least everyone knows who the real fascist is (except for tovi and a few similar retards).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 22, 2015, 03:37:33 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on June 22, 2015, 03:26:05 pm
how long till swift ban? my personal bet is September.
i'm permanently pissed off by nothing doing, but its still better than before ww2, now at least everyone knows who the real fascist is (except for tovi and a few similar retards).
do something already! for exmpl you can wrap yourself in the flag of UA and sing the national anthem of Ukraine in the central square of ur city  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on June 22, 2015, 03:42:24 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 22, 2015, 03:37:33 pm
do something already! for exmpl you can wrap yourself in the flag of UA and sing the national anthem of Ukraine in the central square of ur city  :P

if i have a choice i'm buying ukrainian products, i hope they turn those money into bullets. i think its more effective.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 22, 2015, 03:45:24 pm
Quote from: Beauchamp on June 22, 2015, 03:42:24 pm
if i have a choice i'm buying ukrainian products, i hope they turn those money into bullets. i think its more effective.
yep u need to kill as many ukranians as u only can cos after their joining @soon (C)@  EU 40 mil of ukranians will invade ur country  :P
Oh, and focus on the killings of girls and women, as the murder of a man not so much impact on the demographics in our time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on June 22, 2015, 04:40:27 pm
Maybe I'm wrong but I got a feeling that everyone here is getting more retarded as this thread goes on and on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 22, 2015, 06:08:00 pm
Quote from: Paul on June 22, 2015, 04:40:27 pm
Maybe I'm wrong but I got a feeling that everyone here is getting more retarded as this thread goes on and on.
exept me!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on June 22, 2015, 08:23:37 pm
Quote from: Paul on June 22, 2015, 04:40:27 pm
Maybe I'm wrong but I got a feeling that everyone here is getting more retarded as this thread goes on and on.

You just became a little bit more retarded by posting what you posted  :oops: At least without Tovi we're not running this race too fast.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 22, 2015, 11:39:19 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on June 22, 2015, 08:36:39 am
<...>The only think you can do is to blame russians.
...maybe because... you know... they ARE at fault?

Quote from: Vovka on June 22, 2015, 06:08:00 pm
exept me!
Yeah... you already were... speshul (thats the politically correct term, no?)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on June 23, 2015, 06:18:28 pm
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/06/23/us-military-moving-tanks-other-equipment-to-allied-nations-near-russian-border/

US is moving armor to the countries near Russia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on June 23, 2015, 06:28:26 pm
some one need russian as slave?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on June 23, 2015, 06:52:25 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 23, 2015, 06:28:26 pm
some one need russian as slave?
Thats your plot to get fed for free while still doing nothing (like at home)? Not a chance :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on June 23, 2015, 08:22:49 pm
Quote from: Vovka on June 23, 2015, 06:28:26 pm
some one need russian as slave?

no,  i need hard working ones.  east slavs won´t do it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 02, 2015, 02:49:22 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: JackieChan on July 02, 2015, 04:45:38 pm
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Probably a repost but to lazy to read 600 + pages (unless you gimme looms)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on July 03, 2015, 09:47:38 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 11, 2015, 06:19:22 pm
Come on, no Tovi post about Pravy Sektor firefights in Ukraine?

I am disappoint, man, the evil nazees are attacking and they are all asleep!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 11, 2015, 06:31:55 pm
Quote from: Christo on July 11, 2015, 06:19:22 pm
Come on, no Tovi post about Pravy Sektor firefights in Ukraine?

I am disappoint, man, the evil nazees are attacking and they are all asleep!

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 10:52:30 am
firefight in Mukachevo is a work of Putin. As ukrainian TV says  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 12, 2015, 01:15:51 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 10:52:30 am
firefight in Mukachevo is a work of Putin. As ukrainian TV says  :lol:

Random unknown guy speaks on a TV channel that exists less than 2 years: UKRAINIAN TV SAYS!!!!!!!

That's a fucked up logic, but nobody expects much from you so nobody is even mad. According to this thread the majority of Russians are fools. Breaking news.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 01:59:29 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 12, 2015, 01:15:51 pm
Random unknown guy speaks on a TV channel that exists less than 2 years: UKRAINIAN TV SAYS!!!!!!!

That's a fucked up logic, but nobody expects much from you so nobody is even mad. According to this thread the majority of Russians are fools. Breaking news.
I knew that you will react first. But I thought you will defend your friends as you did before with that girl launching a rocket.
You are blind. Let's see how this accident will end. I bet that they will just close few people, if they will.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 12, 2015, 02:03:41 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 01:59:29 pm
I knew that you will react first. But I thought you will defend your friends as you did before with that girl launching a rocket.
You are blind. Let's see how this accident will end. I bet that they will just close few people, if they will.

You're so fucked up that you forget about being a fool in the past and you come with the shit that was already proven wrong. With fucktards like you your country will always remain the poorest while actually being the richest.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 02:25:18 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 12, 2015, 02:03:41 pm
You're so fucked up that you forget about being a fool in the past and you come with the shit that was already proven wrong. With fucktards like you your country will always remain the poorest while actually being the richest.
Dave so many rage. I'm rich enough, it was hard after 90s, now your country in 90s again, but using methods of soviet union. Also there is 3 ukranians working in my company. Maybe you want to speak with them. My brother's girlfriend is from Crimea. I have grandma in Kiev, uncles and aunts in Luhansk and Donetsk. And you just really can't understand that we are brothers who kill each other. Maybe when your rage will finish, you will see what your government is doing
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 12, 2015, 03:38:31 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 02:25:18 pm
Dave so many rage. I'm rich enough, it was hard after 90s, now your country in 90s again, but using methods of soviet union. Also there is 3 ukranians working in my company. Maybe you want to speak with them. My brother's girlfriend is from Crimea. I have grandma in Kiev, uncles and aunts in Luhansk and Donetsk. And you just really can't understand that we are brothers who kill each other. Maybe when your rage will finish, you will see what your government is doing

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 03:44:28 pm
At least I can admit if I'm wrong. Can you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 12, 2015, 03:45:18 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 03:44:28 pm
I cannot admit I'm wrong. Can you?

fixed
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 12, 2015, 07:52:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 02:25:18 pm
Dave so many rage. I'm rich enough, it was hard after 90s, now your country in 90s again, but using methods of soviet union. Also there is 3 ukranians working in my company. Maybe you want to speak with them. My brother's girlfriend is from Crimea. I have grandma in Kiev, uncles and aunts in Luhansk and Donetsk. And you just really can't understand that we are brothers who kill each other. Maybe when your rage will finish, you will see what your government is doing

Yea Dave. Dont you know the Kremlins cause is always just? They arent evil, corrupt or self-centered at all, like Ukrainian nazi government or the evil US puppets led by a jewish conspiracy.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 12, 2015, 09:28:58 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on June 23, 2015, 06:18:28 pm
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/06/23/us-military-moving-tanks-other-equipment-to-allied-nations-near-russian-border/

US is moving armor to the countries near Russia


Sometime ago, it would have been crazy to imply that military build-up concern any countries, other than Ukraine and Russia :P
And if this is official news, its easy to imagine "lethal" help being more readily accessible.



Quote from: Christo on July 11, 2015, 06:19:22 pm
Come on, no Tovi post about Pravy Sektor firefights in Ukraine?

What of it? My google is broken.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 12, 2015, 10:14:04 pm
Quote from: Lt_Anders on July 12, 2015, 03:45:18 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 12, 2015, 03:44:28 pm
I cannot admit I'm wrong, because I have pink diploma! Can you?
fixed
Had to fix that a litte more. You forgot the pink diploma reference.

Also - now waiting for the mandatory references to "Odessa fire" and that silly "a pogrom which no one credible could report about independently"... ;)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 14, 2015, 04:38:06 am
No one posting anything about Georgia? Is it already considered part of Greater Russiya? Cause that's certainly where it's headed. I'm sure it's merely a response to georgian neo-chocolate chip cookies, and to protect poor opressed minority. In any case their government is probably just a NATO zionist puppet, russians will free them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 14, 2015, 06:29:34 am
Kinda yeah. Georgia will definately be conqured by Russia eventually, as to "quickly counter NATO aggression" or cause fascism, which, as always is only detected by Russian specialists and their reports, but absolutely nobody else or no other countries political reports on the planet. If its not by green men, its by just quietly puppeting the country and turning it into something similar to Belarussia.

Russias annual "nazicountries reports" are always incredibly funny. I dont know what the fuck those idiots in Kremlin think nazism actually is, but as far as they are concerned, its generally countries they don't like very much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 14, 2015, 08:38:37 am
I have not heard about Georgia since the time eaten tie party
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 09:51:21 am
Didn't expect that from the Times
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4495642.ece
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 14, 2015, 10:36:28 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 09:51:21 am
Didn't expect that from the Times
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4495642.ece
...cuz you're not the brightest light in the chandelier. We had already established that fact.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 10:40:22 am
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2015, 10:36:28 am
...cuz you're not the brightest light in the chandelier. We had already established that fact.
Really only after 1,5 year, omg so fast you are
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 14, 2015, 02:13:26 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 09:51:21 am
Didn't expect that from the Times
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4495642.ece
You know whats funny? You seem to expect, that if one supports Ukraine - one has eyes wide shut for the shit that is happening there, which goes a VERY LONG WAY to show how warped beyond reality your view is. In a normal world if you see shit - you call it shit and have it removed one way or another, since its... well.. SHIT. While in russia you would go shouting "its gay jew CIA naztees mafia AND the illuminati, putler plz help k thx bai" and god forbit someone does not disagree with you and tells you that shit is all around you and its your fault you are deep in said shit. Because "national narrative" requires russia to be "stronk" and not full of shit.

Openness and publicity are key directions, which HELP maintain democracy, I do not see a problem with an issue being reported on in a normal way, whether its good or bad for one side or another.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 14, 2015, 03:27:46 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 10:40:22 am
Really only after 1,5 year, omg so fast you are
Wow, you knew about this firefight 1,5 years before it happened?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 14, 2015, 07:07:41 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 09:51:21 am
Didn't expect that from the Times
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4495642.ece

If there was an article like that about Russia on RT you would blame it on the zionist control of the media or something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 07:24:56 pm
Quote from: Kafein on July 14, 2015, 07:07:41 pm
If there was an article like that about Russia on RT you would blame it on the zionist control of the media or something.
Ahaha, you are so sure. Well for western media it took 1,5 years to write such things about Ukraine, maybe they prepare you for cancelling the sanctions)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 14, 2015, 07:25:08 pm
DonNicko, you are so deluded. Western sources portraying Ukrainian forces as wholly united saints is merely another piece of RF propaganda.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 14, 2015, 07:48:02 pm
You can look through this very thread and see people completely accept that there are extreme right-wing militias fighting for the Ukraine. The difference is no one pretended they were controlling the government, like you fucking gullible retards. In fact, if there are such tensions between the government and this militia, doesn't that contradict the ridiculous vomit you cunts have spewed all over this thread? I thought they were the armed wing of the new fascist government, who started the rebellion funded by NATO and CIA with extremely advanced equipment such as shields made from scrap metal and wooden clubs. And they were going to commit genocide on all the russians living in Ukraine.
Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of fucking Russia of all countries crying about fascism. I know it's the goto word, just like "communism" is the ultimate boogeyman in american politics, but if there's a modern developped country that has all the hallmarks of fascism it's Russia, from the cult of personality permanent leader to the ethnonationalistic, populist, militarist propaganda, I could go on. And don't even pretend if you were fighting a desperate war for a huge chunk of your territory the vast proportion (biggest of any country) of russian skinheads and neo-chocolate chip cookies wouldn't be put to it's fullest use. Not like there are any at all in the military, right? Of course not.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 08:47:29 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 14, 2015, 07:48:02 pm
You can look through this very thread and see people completely accept that there are extreme right-wing militias fighting for the Ukraine. The difference is no one pretended they were controlling the government, like you fucking gullible retards.
Ok if you will show me where I said that their government are nazis, I will opologize. But you won't stupid moron, because I never said it.
Anyway government gave them this weapon, and now they suffer because of it. It is like when USA sponsored Saddam or Taliban or ISIS
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 14, 2015, 08:49:47 pm
Quote from: Utrakil on July 14, 2015, 08:02:39 pm
Russians are such friendly, open-minded and tolerant people.
How dare we questioning their value system?!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 08:52:35 pm
Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2015, 08:49:47 pm
Russians are such friendly, open-minded and tolerant people.
How dare we questioning their value system?!
And why did you post it here?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 14, 2015, 10:00:00 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 08:47:29 pm
Anyway government gave them this weapon, and now they suffer because of it. It is like when USA sponsored Saddam or Taliban or ISIS
Yes, you utter fucking retard, because Russia is waging war on them. Seriously, you are so deluded and detached from reality it's amazing. When a massive country attacks you, you don't have the luxury of denying people willing to fight for you. This isn't hard to understand for anyone else but Russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 10:14:25 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 14, 2015, 10:00:00 pm
Yes, you utter fucking retard, because Russia is waging war on them. Seriously, you are so deluded and detached from reality it's amazing. When a massive country attacks you, you don't have the luxury of denying people willing to fight for you. This isn't hard to understand for anyone else but Russians.
If Russia would atack them it would be end very fast. And maybe you want to say that Putin started ATO and made revolution with the forces of Praviy Sector
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 14, 2015, 11:09:37 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 10:14:25 pm
If Russia would atack them it would be end very fast. And maybe you want to say that Putin started ATO and made revolution with the forces of Praviy Sector
Wow, you're still denying Russia's attacked them. And you're making fun of "western media" for being slow. Jesus Christ, you're dumb.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 11:12:13 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 14, 2015, 11:09:37 pm
Wow, you're still denying Russia's attacked them. And you're making fun of "western media" for being slow. Jesus Christ, you're dumb.
Where Russia atacked? Crimea? I already wrote about that you dumb. Do you agree that current government used Praviy sector to make revolution? Or you deny that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 14, 2015, 11:17:06 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 10:14:25 pm
If Russia would atack them it would be end very fast. And maybe you want to say that Putin started ATO and made revolution with the forces of Praviy Sector

Russia denied it's involvement in Crimea something which it has been proved beyond any doubt that it was involved with.  How can you continue to believe that the Kremlin has no involvement in the continuation of war in eastern Ukraine, it is simply impossible that a group of separatists could continue to fight for this long without receiving external support; simple things like ammunition and basic medical supplies would have run out months ago and their are multiple accounts which indicate direct involvement by Russian armed forces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 11:25:28 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 14, 2015, 11:17:06 pm
Russia denied it's involvement in Crimea something which it has been proved beyond any doubt that it was involved with.  How can you continue to believe that the Kremlin has no involvement in the continuation of war in eastern Ukraine, it is simply impossible that a group of separatists could continue to fight for this long without receiving external support; simple things like ammunition and basic medical supplies would have run out months ago and their are multiple accounts which indicate direct involvement by Russian armed forces.
Why you so blind guys, where did I say that Kremlin doesn't have any involvemnet, stop think out what I didn't say. OK?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 14, 2015, 11:27:47 pm
So you admit that Russia is propagating war in eastern Ukraine in order to achieve the expansion of the Russian federation?  Do you also accept that such an act is abhorrent, illegal and down right unacceptable?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 11:36:09 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 14, 2015, 11:27:47 pm
So you admit that Russia is propagating war in eastern Ukraine in order to achieve the expansion of the Russian federation?  Do you also accept that such an act is abhorrent, illegal and down right unacceptable?
I admit that Russian couldn't accept the loss of military bases in Crimea, and Russia not interested in war in Eastern Ukraine, but I think that they help separatists with ammunition, also there are a lot of volunteers from Russia. Ofcourse all this things are illegal, but I want to say that revolution was illegal first. Do you accept that armed revolution that was made by the armed forces of Praviy sector was illegal and unacceptable?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 14, 2015, 11:46:57 pm
Absolutely, I in no way condone armed violence and I find the entire behaviour in Ukraine from both sides to be absolutely disgrace.  If Ukrainians want to move closer to the EU/NATO or EEU/Russia that is their choice and should be undertaken in a free, fair and democratic way.  I try my best to search Russian, Ukrainian and other sources before I conclude on what goes on in this tragic conflict, and I do not condone the behaviour of any side involved (including that of NATO/EU).  I personally believe that overwhelmingly the ones who have done the most to prevent an end to the violence have been the separatists in eastern Ukraine, backed by Russia, who are fully aware that under a free and fair democratic system they would not be able to achieve their goals and as such resort to violence at the cost of thousands of innocent lives.

I couldn't give a damn about the politics of the Ukraine, its on the other side of the continent to me and has no immediate impact on my life, although i am pro-European and my personal political belief is that European integration is a good thing i do not agree with the way in which the current Ukrainian government came to power nor with what they have done since they did. That being said I also believe that Russia is clearly the greater aggressor here as it has violated national sovereignty and self determination, annexed land illegally and attempted at every opportunity to deny it's direct involvement in the crisis despite concrete evidence to the contrary.

The legality of the Ukrainian Maidan square revolution was a Ukrainian issue not a Russian one, Russia took it upon itself to become involved in this conflict without regard to national sovereignty. Just because an act is illegal does not mean that another country has the right to become involved; the age old truth is that two wrongs do not make a right.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 11:52:50 pm
Well I agree, and I believe that if USA or EU would condemn this revolution instead of supporting it, forced them to make everything democratically, there won't be any war and Crimea would stay in Ukraine.
As I said before Russia couldn't accept the loss of military bases in Crimea, and this what new power wanted to do, so Russia involved in this conflict anyhow
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 14, 2015, 11:55:04 pm
Hurr durr no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine hurr durrrr Russian special forces got lost because of bad maps hurr durr I'm DonNicko with the IQ of the average russian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 14, 2015, 11:57:56 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 14, 2015, 11:55:04 pm
Hurr durr no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine hurr durrrr Russian special forces got lost because of bad maps hurr durr I'm DonNicko with the IQ of the average russian.
Hurr durr Im Xant the spartan gimme tits
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2015, 12:08:02 am
Wow, that was boring even by your standards.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 12:11:00 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 11:52:50 pm
Well I agree, and I believe that if USA or EU would condemn this revolution instead of supporting it, forced them to make everything democratically, there won't be any war and Crimea would stay in Ukraine.
As I said before Russia couldn't accept the loss of military bases in Crimea, and this what new power wanted to do, so Russia involved in this conflict anyhow

Crimea is almost irrelevant at this stage, it was not for Russia to decide what another country does with its sovereign territory just as it was not for Ukraine to unilaterally revoke Russian access to the black sea. As a member of the UN security council the Kremlin should have sought a legal, internationally recognised solution to this issue rather than instigating an illegal annexation. Furthermore the continued support of separatists and involvement of the Kremlin in eastern Ukraine is of no relation to the military bases in Crimea and is simple for the direct expansion of their sphere of influence.

It is clear to me why Russia would feel threatened by the envelopment of NATO in the post cold-war period (the continual expansion of NATO is something which I think is pathetic and clearly directly inflammatory to Russia as a whole); however at the same time if the Kremlin is not willing to respect the rights of its neighbours to choose their own future, it cannot expect to have its own wishes respected either.  Putin is more than willing to flex his military muscles (and boy do I love a Machiavellian politician) but if he is undermining the reputation that Russia had earned of being a progressive and forward looking country since the collapse of the USSR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on July 15, 2015, 01:52:24 am
Casimir.
In a perfect world I'd ask.. why can't RF keep its bases in Crimea?  Why expand NATO when it's primary purpose has disappeared?

The answer to both of these questions, has to do with how RF do politics. They never really truly understood that the Baltics, and now Ukraine, was lost to them. They kept up their realpolitik of crazy deals and bullying of old. The whole of eastern europe didn't get invited to NATO as much as they knocked on the door and shouted LET US IN!! They had to work and adapt for years to get access. It was not an open door, they had to earn it.

Crimea is a masterpiece of military/political manipulation. Ukraine KNEW that RF wanted it back, they knew RF could take it easily. That's why their right wing politicians couldn't keep it cool and and wanted to get them out asap. RF realized the danger, pulled out a takeover plan from the drawer and simply used the situation to their advantage. With the confidence of  the elegant Crimea takeover they tried to improvise the same in Ukraine, but settled for having a dagger constantly in the UKR side in stead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 02:09:24 am
Quote from: Thomek on July 15, 2015, 01:52:24 am
Casimir.
In a perfect world I'd ask.. why can't RF keep its bases in Crimea?  Why expand NATO when it's primary purpose has disappeared?

The answer to both of these questions, has to do with how RF do politics. They never really truly understood that the Baltics, and now Ukraine, was lost to them. They kept up their realpolitik of crazy deals and bullying of old. The whole of eastern europe didn't get invited to NATO as much as they knocked on the door and shouted LET US IN!! They had to work and adapt for years to get access. It was not an open door, they had to earn it.

Crimea is a masterpiece of military/political manipulation. Ukraine KNEW that RF wanted it back, they knew RF could take it easily. That's why their right wing politicians couldn't keep it cool and and wanted to get them out asap. RF realized the danger, pulled out a takeover plan from the drawer and simply used the situation to their advantage. With the confidence of  the elegant Crimea takeover they tried to improvise the same in Ukraine, but settled for having a dagger constantly in the UKR side in stead.

As I see it NATO's primary purpose is and always has been the projection of US led power across the globe in the service of 'western interests'.  Whether the ex-Warsaw pact states were freely invited or had to earn their membership is irrelevant, the expansion of any military alliance on such a scale is an act of innate hostility and provocation.   If the tides were turned the west would have reacted exactly the same as Russia has done.  Crimea would have been a master-class if the whole affair hadn't been such a massive diplomatic disaster on the strategic scale; I guess you just can't get away with plain faced criminality, at least when western interests are directly threatened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 15, 2015, 06:11:17 am
Casimir, your wrote well last few posts and I agreed with you but please...

Quote from: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 02:09:24 am
As I see it NATO's primary purpose is and always has been the projection of US led power across the globe in the service of 'western interests'.

Don't make yourself Tovi, soon you will find doing Slav Squat if you "see" or "believe" these kind of things  :wink:. Nato is a defence alliance, it is not used to get political power via military operations. Current The Secretary General of Nato is a norwegian, and actually never been US citizen [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_Secretaries_General
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 07:06:28 am
Quote from: Thomek on July 15, 2015, 01:52:24 am
Crimea is a masterpiece of military/political manipulation. Ukraine KNEW that RF wanted it back, they knew RF could take it easily. That's why their right wing politicians couldn't keep it cool and and wanted to get them out asap. RF realized the danger, pulled out a takeover plan from the drawer and simply used the situation to their advantage. With the confidence of  the elegant Crimea takeover they tried to improvise the same in Ukraine, but settled for having a dagger constantly in the UKR side in stead.
I think that after Kosovo percedent, Kreml started to think how they can to return Crimea. But this only my thoughts. Also you can read what methods NATO used before in wikileaks. And nobody will be punished never, because you can't punish yourself. Also they used depleted uranium, that caused deseases after bombings. Nobody will pay them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on July 15, 2015, 08:50:25 am
Russia used U238-ammo as well in the Chechnya conflict. A ton of countries use or used it. Afaik it's self-sharpening property just makes it better than the alternative material - tungsten carbide. Only naturally good countries like Germany refrained from using it from the start. Or those who don't have access to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 08:51:05 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 14, 2015, 11:52:50 pm
Well I agree, and I believe that if USA or EU would condemn this revolution instead of supporting it, forced them to make everything democratically, there won't be any war and Crimea would stay in Ukraine.
As I said before Russia couldn't accept the loss of military bases in Crimea, and this what new power wanted to do, so Russia involved in this conflict anyhow
So lets rephrase it - an old military base is clearly worth oh... what... 6000 lives lost, uncounted number of maimed ones and milions of people affected by the destruction and war which was artificially created by russia, because prick-putler "could not accept the loss of a base" on a FOREIGN soil, which is NOT rUSSIA. Well said Don, well said. About sums up why I have ZERO fucking respect to anyone trying to justify russia and its bullshit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2015, 08:51:57 am
Wouldn't want your lethal ammunition causing diseases, warfare should be nice and polite and feel good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:21:21 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 08:51:05 am
So lets rephrase it - an old military base is clearly worth oh... what... 6000 lives lost, uncounted number of maimed ones and milions of people affected by the destruction and war which was artificially created by russia, because prick-putler "could not accept the loss of a base" on a FOREIGN soil, which is NOT rUSSIA. Well said Don, well said. About sums up why I have ZERO fucking respect to anyone trying to justify russia and its bullshit.
This 6000 lifes lost because of ukrainian bombardments. I don't remember you accusing them. don't remember accusing NATO, you are just russian hater, because of that you pissed so much
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 15, 2015, 10:31:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:21:21 am
This 6000 lifes lost because of ukrainian bombardments. I don't remember you accusing them. don't remember accusing NATO, you are just russian hater, because of that you pissed so much
Well, to be fair, there are quite a lot of reasons to dislike Russians. You being a shining example, alongside Vovka.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 10:32:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:21:21 am
This 6000 lifes lost because of ukrainian bombardments. I don't remember you accusing them. don't remember accusing NATO, you are just russian hater, because of that you pissed so much
Oh... so you want to tell me, that Ukrainians one day decided  "fuck this shit, its too peacefull, need some sport, lets bomb something" and just went about bombing shit? Cool story bro... care to elaborate how come pink diploma owner can spit such bullshit?

In my book its the aggressor who is at fault for starting the conflict, which in this case is a shit-hole you call "mother russia" led by the "80%+ aprroval rate" putler. In war casualties and destruction happens. This war was MADE by russia, started by russia and is being fueled by russia. So YOUR pitiful excuse for a country is at fault, not Ukraine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:33:17 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 10:32:07 am
Oh... so you want to tell me, that Ukrainians one day decided  "fuck this shit, its too peacefull, need some sport, lets bomb something" and just went about bombing shit? Cool story bro... care to elaborate how come pink diploma owner can spit such bullshit?

In my book its the aggressor who is at fault for starting the conflict, which in this case is a shit-hole you call "mother russia" led by the "80%+ aprroval rate" putler. In war casualties and destruction happens. This war was MADE by russia, started by russia and is being fueled by russia. So YOUR pitiful excuse for a country is at fault, not Ukraine.
So how then 6000 civilians were killed?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 10:35:47 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:21:21 am
This 6000 lifes lost because of ukrainian bombardments.

Well, I'm just turning your retard style and say "any proof to that?". And when you throw some "proofs" I'll just call them bullshit.

Also, laughed about that "If we were in Ukraine we would take it in 1, max 2 days". That also indicates how fucked up you (86 or how many percent of people supporting Putin) are. You could take over Ukraine in 30 minutes: drink 2 bottles of vodka and Ukraine is yours in your alcoholic delirium. That's ultra funny though that you're an autistic hipster who claims to never drink vodka or smoke and being baptist living in islamic Tatarstan being a part of orthodox Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:40:09 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 10:35:47 am
Well, I'm just turning your retard style and say "any proof to that?". And when you throw some "proofs" I'll just call them bullshit.

Also, laughed about that "If we were in Ukraine we would take it in 1, max 2 days". That also indicates how fucked up you (86 or how many percent of people supporting Putin) are. You could take over Ukraine in 30 minutes: drink 2 bottles of vodka and Ukraine is yours in your alcoholic delirium. That's ultra funny though that you're an autistic hipster who claims to never drink vodka or smoke and being baptist living in islamic Tatarstan being a part of orthodox Russia.
Dave as always moronic children, where did I say that it would take 1 or 2 days. You don't need proofs, because you alredy know who shelled Donetsk and Luhansk, you just prefer to close the eyes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 10:40:37 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:33:17 am
So how then 6000 civilians were killed?
Because of war, which was caused by this.. oh,.. how was that shit-hole called... rUSSIA! Yeah, thats the name of the sheeple-cleptocracy! :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:48:47 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 10:40:37 am
Because of war, which was caused by this.. oh,.. how was that shit-hole called... rUSSIA! Yeah, thats the name of the sheeple-cleptocracy! :)
Ahaha, so who killed this 6000 people?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 15, 2015, 10:49:58 am
I did.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 10:51:43 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:48:47 am
Ahaha, so who killed this 6000 people?
Both sides in a pointless artificial war? Or shall we go and blame comrade Kalashnikov post-portem for inventing AK-47, AK74, etc and being at fault for all those dead in Africa too?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:54:23 am
Quote from: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 10:51:43 am
Both sides in a pointless artificial war? Or shall we go and blame comrade Kalashnikov post-portem for inventing AK-47, AK74, etc and being at fault for all those dead in Africa too?
When 1700 civilians were killed after NATO shellings Yugoslavia. Who killed them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:03:51 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:54:23 am
When 1700 civilians were killed after NATO shellings Yugoslavia. Who killed them?

Your momma. She is so fat that it takes 1 and a half year and 6000 civilians to wipe her ass. Happy now? Shitface idiot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: serr on July 15, 2015, 11:05:36 am
50 millions(roughly) civillians were killed during ww2, who killed them?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:06:29 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:03:51 am
Your momma. She is so fat that it takes 1 and a half year and 6000 civilians to wipe her ass. Happy now? Shitface idiot.
You are stupid as always. BTW did they find somebody after Odessa massacre? Or they still finding you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:09:35 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:06:29 am
You are stupid as always. BTW did they find somebody after Odessa massacre? Or they still finding you?

How about Aydar girl with RPG that I supported for killing civilians. Or whatever else you keep repeating lol. Such autism  :mad:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:12:15 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:09:35 am
How about Aydar girl with RPG that I supported for killing civilians. Or whatever else you keep repeating lol. Such autism  :mad:
You didn't support her, just tried to justify, as a Odessa massacre
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:13:51 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:12:15 am
You didn't support her, just tried to justify, as a Odessa massacre

Prove it or never happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:15:26 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:13:51 am
Prove it or never happened.
Did it, Vovka also showed it to you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:19:07 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:15:26 am
Did it, Vovka also showed it to you.

Prove it or never happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 15, 2015, 11:30:31 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 10:54:23 am
When 1700 civilians were killed after NATO shellings Yugoslavia. Who killed them?
You know... I want to read some sense from you "train wreck of thought", but... its just fucking whatabautism or simple autism... Since Dave has some medical expertise and diagnosed autism - I'll go with that :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2015, 11:30:43 am
It still amazes me DonNicko is a "red diploma" university student in Russia. Well, no it doesn't, I guess, since 99.9% of all Russians are so fucking stupid (and not just stupid, but they all have the same identical aggressive and ignorant personality, which is the reason everyone hates Russians in every MP game). But I mean... still. I guess it's the fact that when you have a country full of morons, you have to set the standards lower for your universities.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:32:54 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:19:07 am
Prove it or never happened.

    Ukranian girl shooting at the village, will she be punished anyhow?

Quote from: DaveUKR on March 28, 2015, 05:23:08 pm
For separatists hiding in civilian houses? The majority of such small villages are empty anyway, not even separatists are there.
Proved

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2015, 11:35:24 am
Maybe if Russia didn't start wars there wouldn't be evil Ukrainian girls shooting at empty houses. But that is clearly the biggest concern for the Russian alcohol addled brain.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:37:00 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:32:54 am
    Ukranian girl shooting at the village, will she be punished anyhow?
Proved

Prove those were civilian houses, not separatists or never happened.

Also, cba to find our previous conversation, here are quotes from that page that you quoted.

You reply to me with:
Quote from: krrhmXPRNC on March 28, 2015, 05:40:25 pm
If so then OK, but IMHO shooting at building not good anyways

Reply to vovka.
Quote from: DaveUKR on March 29, 2015, 01:33:24 am
She is [a stupid bitch], it's kinda obvious. I'm also sceptical about the whole Aydar batallion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:38:20 am
Quote from: Xant on July 15, 2015, 11:35:24 am
Maybe if Russia didn't start wars there wouldn't be evil Ukrainian girls shooting at empty houses. But that is clearly the biggest concern for the Russian alcohol addled brain.
they were not empty, it was Shirokino, but you are too dumb to admit it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:39:35 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:38:20 am
they were not empty, it was Shirokino, but you are too dumb to admit it.

Prove it or never happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:40:18 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:37:00 am
Prove those were civilian houses, not separatists or never happened.

Also, cba to find our previous conversation, here are quotes from that page that you quoted.

You reply to me with:
Reply to vovka.
But your first reaction was to justify her. It is kinda obvious  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 15, 2015, 11:41:24 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:40:18 am
But your first reaction was to justify her. It is kinda obvious that I don't know what I am actually talking about :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 15, 2015, 11:43:30 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:40:18 am
But your first reaction was to justify her. It is kinda obvious  :lol:

Prove it or it never happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 05:11:34 pm
Quote from: Osakasa on July 15, 2015, 06:11:17 am
Casimir, your wrote well last few posts and I agreed with you but please...

Don't make yourself Tovi, soon you will find doing Slav Squat if you "see" or "believe" these kind of things  :wink:. Nato is a defence alliance, it is not used to get political power via military operations. Current The Secretary General of Nato is a norwegian, and actually never been US citizen [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_Secretaries_General

Sorry to jump back to this just want to clarify that a defensive alliance can still be used for the projection of power; due to the greater military power of the U.S. as a sovereign nation in NATO means that its influence is overwhelming compared with other members. I'm not a tovi (best insult :P) but I'm just not a fan of big military alliances of any kind as they set a tone of international relations as one of inate hostility; that said they of course have their place in the real world.

You can all go back to your shit posting.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2015, 07:13:04 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 15, 2015, 11:38:20 am
they were not empty, it was Shirokino, but you are too dumb to admit it.
Prove it or it never happened.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 15, 2015, 07:49:58 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 05:11:34 pm
Sorry to jump back to this just want to clarify that a defensive alliance can still be used for the projection of power; due to the greater military power of the U.S. as a sovereign nation in NATO means that its influence is overwhelming compared with other members. I'm not a tovi (best insult :P) but I'm just not a fan of big military alliances of any kind as they set a tone of international relations as one of inate hostility; that said they of course have their place in the real world.

You can all go back to your shit posting.

True. But without NATOs power that it gets mainly from the US some countries wouldn't even exist anymore. In example...well...mine. Quite simply put Russia is a real threat to countries in Eastern Europe who REALLY don't want anything to do with them. They can repeat constatly how they havent done anything compared to the US to make people have "such false impression", but that does not make them any less hostile. Not even close. NATOs power in the region is what keeps Russia in check. If the US was some feeble country that minded its own buisness and Russia had the resource and power USA currently wields it would have probably occupied and burned 40% of Europe by now and probably half way to the Middle-East aswell.

Russians are easy to criticise USA abusing its power, but I think they too know well enough, if they had such power, they would do much, much worse.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 08:29:50 pm
Quote from: Tibe on July 15, 2015, 07:49:58 pm
True. But without NATOs power that it gets mainly from the US some countries wouldn't even exist anymore. In example...well...mine. Quite simply put Russia is a real threat to countries in Eastern Europe who REALLY don't want anything to do with them. They can repeat constatly how they havent done anything compared to the US to make people have "such false impression", but that does not make them any less hostile. Not even close. NATOs power in the region is what keeps Russia in check. If the US was some feeble country that minded its own buisness and Russia had the resource and power USA currently wields it would have probably occupied and burned 40% of Europe by now and probably half way to the Middle-East aswell.

Russians are easy to criticise USA abusing its power, but I think they too know well enough, if they had such power, they would do much, much worse.

Well you aren't exactly objective in this due to the obvious, the same with Xant, Dave, Vovka and Don.  I'm not either but I can understand why russians take issue with the expansion of NATO.  Don't get me wrong, I believe in democratic self determination and the rights of soverign states; however NATO must accept that it's actions have directly contributed to increased aggression from RF.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 15, 2015, 09:30:10 pm
True. I too can understand why Russians take issue with NATOs expansion, but that doesnt make me less objective. Obviously when one side pushes, the other one pushes back and both sides will claim that the other side started pushing first.

Looking from my backyard it seems very clear who the "badguy" is. Understanding why russians take issue of natos expansion gives little comfort and honestly majority of these issues are basically in a form of farfetched conspiracy theories. Which begs me to believe they are faaar less objective than I am.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2015, 09:43:47 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 08:29:50 pm
Well you aren't exactly objective in this due to the obvious, the same with Xant, Dave, Vovka and Don.  I'm not either but I can understand why russians take issue with the expansion of NATO.  Don't get me wrong, I believe in democratic self determination and the rights of soverign states; however NATO must accept that it's actions have directly contributed to increased aggression from RF.
Wat, do tell what the obvious reason why I'm not objective is?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 15, 2015, 09:46:52 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 08:29:50 pm
I'm not either but I can understand why russians take issue with the expansion of NATO.

Quote from: Tibe on July 15, 2015, 09:30:10 pm
I too can understand why Russians take issue with NATOs expansion, but that doesnt make me less objective. Obviously when one side pushes..

Lol, Nato isn't expanding on its own neither pushes toward Russian :D It's simply the otherway round, neighbour countries of Russian have invited Nato. More precisely, all Nato countries have requested membership, Nato simply doesn't expand inside other countries borders, like some-dudes-with-weapons-and-all-kind-of-supplyline near Ukraine border. Please, notice the difference. And why Nato is "expading" toward Russian, yeah, there might be reasons, somewhere at political leader(s). ahaha, I don't even myself believe there is use for "s" :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 09:59:55 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 15, 2015, 09:43:47 pm
Wat, do tell what the obvious reason why I'm not objective is?

You are Finnish right?

Quote from: Osakasa on July 15, 2015, 09:46:52 pm
Lol, Nato isn't expanding on its own neither pushes toward Russian :D It's simply the otherway round, neighbour countries of Russian have invited Nato. More precisely, all Nato countries have requested membership, Nato simply doesn't expand inside other countries borders, like some-dudes-with-weapons-and-all-kind-of-supplyline near Ukraine border. Please, notice the difference. And why Nato is "expading" toward Russian, yeah, there might be reasons, somewhere at political leader(s). ahaha, I don't even myself believe there is use for "s" :)

Whether members ask to join or we're invited is irrelevant, NATO has grown while the Kremlins influence has subsided; NATO members old and new should accept some responsibility for this aggravating the Kremlin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 15, 2015, 10:09:21 pm
Quote from: Osakasa on July 15, 2015, 09:46:52 pm
(click to show/hide)
Yeah. Eastern EU even begged to be in Nato and EU. There was no forcing or bulling from the Wests side. There was a massive chance of even getting denied. But ofcourse the propagaded morons in the East ignore that fact completely and claim that we have been fed false Western propaganda by US to make Russia seem like a threat so that we could let Nato inside our countries without any suspicious. And ofcourse those morons forget the quite simple fact, that we live right next to them, there is no need for Western middlemen and the Kremlin directly says it into our faces how much it hates us, making itself seem like an aggressive cunt.

Quote from: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 09:59:55 pm
Whether members ask to join or we're invited is irrelevant, NATO has grown while the Kremlins influence has subsided; NATO members old and new should accept some responsibility for this aggravating the Kremlin.
And than what? Everyone cools down? Quite unlikely. Russia will just use it as a clear claim that in light of nato accepting that responsibility, it is entirely in their rights to be aggressive and they will continue to do so. To be honest I don't see this whole mess cooling down any time real soon, even after Ukraine. The stand-off with Russia will get inevitably worse before it gets better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 15, 2015, 11:18:14 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 09:59:55 pm
You are Finnish right?
Yes... and?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on July 16, 2015, 12:21:42 am
Quote from: Xant on July 15, 2015, 11:18:14 pm
Yes... and?

He means you're an obtrusive moron.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on July 16, 2015, 12:23:27 am
I think the main difference is.. Yes they joined NATO, mostly for the article 5 guaranteeing the assitance of the other states.

in practice NATO troops didn't get stationed in any meaningful numbers in any new members, because they didn't want to provoke Russia. Compare this in contrast with the massive military exercises and provocations RF has been running.

Only after Ukraine NATO started demonstrating deployment as an answer to RF actions. Before the fact, they kept out and away. There was and are ZERO signs that NATO actually wants to attack or contain RF in any military way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 16, 2015, 12:54:58 am
Quote from: Casimir on July 15, 2015, 08:29:50 pm
however NATO must accept that it's actions have directly contributed to increased aggression from RF.

What actions?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 16, 2015, 01:27:51 am
Quote from: Siiem on July 16, 2015, 12:21:42 am
He means you're an obtrusive moron.
At least I'm not a gay midget in pink bikinis, so I've got that going for me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 16, 2015, 01:28:09 am
Quote from: Kafein on July 16, 2015, 12:54:58 am
What actions?
sponsorship of all fighters for independence near RF boarder, such as the Taliban, Chechen Republic of Ichkeria etc)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 03:38:51 am
Just as the Kremlin has done more than its fair share of destabilisation and sponsorship of rebels, this crisis aptly proves it to be true.  The sad fact is that thousands of innocent people loose their lives so these politicians can further their own aims; its disgusting really and more sicking is the fact that some would even defend such behaviour.


Quote from: Kafein on July 16, 2015, 12:54:58 am
What actions?

Actions such as accepting new members, increasing the size of it's military capabilities and removing any neutral zones of influence between Russia and NATO. If CSTO's membership had grown under any circumstances as much as NATO's had western governments would not be sitting idly by and letting it happen.


Quote from: Thomek on July 16, 2015, 12:23:27 am
I think the main difference is.. Yes they joined NATO, mostly for the article 5 guaranteeing the assitance of the other states.

in practice NATO troops didn't get stationed in any meaningful numbers in any new members, because they didn't want to provoke Russia. Compare this in contrast with the massive military exercises and provocations RF has been running.

Only after Ukraine NATO started demonstrating deployment as an answer to RF actions. Before the fact, they kept out and away. There was and are ZERO signs that NATO actually wants to attack or contain RF in any military way.

But Russia has always feared this, it's something that was made quite clear in the post soviet period that that was a major concern of the RF so why would NATO do something that? NATO chiefs must surely have realised that the Kremlin will see as an attempt at encirclement/isolation, how the hell could they not?  As such NATO has deliberately 'poked the bear' expanding its membership right up to Russia's border states.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 16, 2015, 06:23:52 am
Quote from: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 03:38:51 am
Actions such as accepting new members, increasing the size of it's military capabilities and removing any neutral zones of influence between Russia and NATO. If CSTO's membership had grown under any circumstances as much as NATO's had western governments would not be sitting idly by and letting it happen..
So NATO shouldn't accept new members because Russia will get upset that it can't invade neighboring countries at will?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 16, 2015, 10:05:18 am
Casimir claims that state sovereignty is of utmost importance to him and then denies them exactly that by not allowing those states to decide "We want to be NATO!".
Who are you and who is Russia to decide that they shouldn't?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 16, 2015, 10:13:09 am
Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2015, 10:05:18 am
Casimir claims that state sovereignty is of utmost importance to him and then denies them exactly that by not allowing those states to decide "We want to be NATO!".
Who are you and who is Russia to decide that they shouldn't?
I can only second that. Being from one of those small ex-ussr states - joining NATO and EU were the best things that happened since we got back our independence IMO and thank god noone asked russias oppinion.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 10:28:15 am
Casimir stop writing here, somebody can't understand your point anyhow. For them it is just impossible
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 16, 2015, 11:04:03 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 10:28:15 am
Casimir stop writing here, somebody can't understand your point anyhow. For them it is just impossible
Prove it or it's not true.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 16, 2015, 11:08:17 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 10:28:15 am
Casimir stop writing here...
Please, it's normal in western culture that people are telling their opinions, there is nothing wrong about it. It's something we call "freedom of speech". You can't tell someone to stop writing.

Quote from: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 10:28:15 am
...somebody can't understand your point anyhow. For them it is just impossible
What, who are you to tell what we understand or not? I'm sorry to tell you but you are the one who have some difficulties to understand. I'm sure because we use english, you know other languages as you have told before. Still I have to say that your english has become much better that it used to be ~50 pages ago, good job :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 11:46:02 am
Quote from: Osakasa on July 16, 2015, 11:08:17 am
What, who are you to tell what we understand or not? I'm sorry to tell you but you are the one who have some difficulties to understand. I'm sure because we use english, you know other languages as you have told before. Still I have to say that your english has become much better that it used to be ~50 pages ago, good job :)
Thanks, I use english only in this forum.
BTW right now Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt in Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. This is independence  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 11:48:45 am
Here's more independence:
(click to show/hide)
Yay, things that must mean something!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 11:53:24 am
Quote from: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 11:48:45 am
Here's more independence:
(click to show/hide)
Yay, things that must mean something!
Seems you missed or didn't understand what Verkhovna Rada means
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 12:00:10 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 11:53:24 am
Seems you missed or didn't understand what Verkhovna Rada means
Seems you missed or didn't understand what Kremlin means
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 12:02:12 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 12:00:10 pm
Seems you missed or didn't understand what Kremlin means
Do you know what Duma means? Because you completely missed the point
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 12:04:39 pm
Quote
An orphaned cheetah becomes the best friend and pet of a young boy living in South Africa.
Thanks, i'll watch that sometime :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 12:08:52 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 12:04:39 pm
Thanks, i'll watch that sometime :lol:
:lol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Duma
Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada
Kremlin is another thing, learn it
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 16, 2015, 12:09:18 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 10:28:15 am
Casimir stop writing here, somebody can't understand your point anyhow. For them it is just impossible
I understand his point perfectly well. It just so happens that I do not agree with it. I even think that he contradicts himself.

"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too."
-Voltaire

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
-George Orwell

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 16, 2015, 12:50:41 pm
Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2015, 12:09:18 pm
I understand his point perfectly well. It just so happens that I do not agree with it. I even think that he contradicts himself.

"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too."
-Voltaire

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
-George Orwell

"The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes
Your Google Search Skills inproved +3
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 01:02:40 pm
Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2015, 10:05:18 am
Casimir claims that state sovereignty is of utmost importance to him and then denies them exactly that by not allowing those states to decide "We want to be NATO!".
Who are you and who is Russia to decide that they shouldn't?

Yes and with sovereignty comes a responsibility. My criticism is not towards the small eastern European states, who are quite understandably threatened by RF, but of NATO's lack of consideration of the diplomatic consequences of expanding its membership to them.  I understand the reasons for it and as I said before I just think that its overtly hostile and inflamatory.  Of course it's not for Russia to decide the future of Eastern Europe, but there are better ways to ensure peace than by enlarging  military blocks.  (Also EU membership would be enough to garuntee this, NATO is a distinctly more provocative group)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 16, 2015, 01:09:05 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 16, 2015, 12:08:52 pm
:lol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Duma
Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada
Kremlin is another thing, learn it

Yep, Duma is just a ridiculous place full of Putin's puppets same as your Federation Council. Not even there anyone could have an opinion: did anyone just vote AGAINST??!!!! BURN HIM!!!!

What do you expect? More than a half of Duma are Putin's bribeboys, the second biggest power are communists (more than 20%), lol.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 16, 2015, 01:14:36 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 01:02:40 pm
Yes and with sovereignty comes a responsibility. My criticism is not towards the small eastern European states, who are quite understandably threatened by RF, but of NATO's lack of consideration of the diplomatic consequences of expanding its membership to them.  I understand the reasons for it and as I said before I just think that its overtly hostile and inflamatory.  Of course it's not for Russia to decide the future of Eastern Europe, but there are better ways to ensure peace than by enlarging  military blocks.  (Also EU membership would be enough to garuntee this, NATO is a distinctly more provocative group)

I highly doubt that. EU as a military organization is like a kid who attended karate classes for 2 months: thinks that he's powerful enough to fight but in real threat has no guts to even do anything. Same with many other organizations: OSCE, UN etc.

Remember 1994's Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances? We discussed it in the past. Guess what, it didn't work. What's more pathetic that Russia who signed it is the one that is supposed to be defended against.  And then it was asked about it: Putin was like "there was a revolution in Ukraine, we signed this document with previous Ukraine, not this Ukraine". That's just utter trolling and bullshit. Works just fine for the majority of Russians though: "Huehuehue, Putin is so smart, I'll drink my vodka for him (which is cheaper than water)"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 16, 2015, 01:41:52 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 01:02:40 pm
Yes and with sovereignty comes a responsibility. My criticism is not towards the small eastern European states, who are quite understandably threatened by RF, but of NATO's lack of consideration of the diplomatic consequences of expanding its membership to them.  I understand the reasons for it and as I said before I just think that its overtly hostile and inflamatory.  Of course it's not for Russia to decide the future of Eastern Europe, but there are better ways to ensure peace than by enlarging  military blocks.  (Also EU membership would be enough to garuntee this, NATO is a distinctly more provocative group)
That's just retarded. Of course countries near Russia want to join NATO, they're the ones that need it. If Russia isn't going to attack them, it doesn't need to worry about NATO either. And no, there really are no better ways to ensure peace than military alliances, as anyone can see from Ukraine's situation. Russia still acts like the Soviet Union and Ukraine's left alone to deal with it because it's not in NATO.

You also failed to explain how my being Finnish has anything to do with anything.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 02:32:31 pm
Well sharing the largest European land border with RF and being a potential NATO member I'd say you are hardly goiny to be coming from an objective standpoint.

Ukraine isn't left alone and has recieved support from NATO & EU countries, any direct military intervention would end in a diplomatic disaster and more violence.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 03:02:57 pm
But then again, having had no experience of Kremlin politics affecting you or your country in a significant way, you can hardly be objective as well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 16, 2015, 05:42:34 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 01:02:40 pm
Yes and with sovereignty comes a responsibility. My criticism is not towards the small eastern European states, who are quite understandably threatened by RF, but of NATO's lack of consideration of the diplomatic consequences of expanding its membership to them.  I understand the reasons for it and as I said before I just think that its overtly hostile and inflamatory.  Of course it's not for Russia to decide the future of Eastern Europe, but there are better ways to ensure peace than by enlarging  military blocks.  (Also EU membership would be enough to garuntee this, NATO is a distinctly more provocative group)

Russia was seriously invited to NATO and there were plans for a step-by-step integration in the EU back in the 90s and early 00s. What you're saying is a complete anachronism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 16, 2015, 07:14:40 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 02:32:31 pm
Ukraine isn't left alone and has recieved support from NATO & EU countries, any direct military intervention would end in a diplomatic disaster and more violence.

That's not really support and definitely not a support for a defending country against Russia. The only possible valuable helping sources I see are US, Poland and Baltics. The country you currently live in suggested some old vehicles (without weaponry) to buy for a little bit lower price, we bought it ofc but still it's just business, you would get rid of them just like US throwing their tanks in the Pacific ocean. But 20 years ago your country (US and also RF) guaranteed help in such situations. It was like "why do you need nuclear weapons anyway? We're 3 major powers and we guarantee you won't even need it". I guess having nuclear weapons Ukraine would be a much considerable in current state (Ukraine had 3rd or 4th nuclear potential in the world, correct me if i'm mistaken).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on July 16, 2015, 07:36:00 pm
The US will have lasers and flying aircraft carriers by 2020. We are gearing up for a war against aliens, not Russia, Russia is obsolete.

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 Mil spending by billions.

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 16, 2015, 09:12:44 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 16, 2015, 07:14:40 pm
We're 3 major powers and we guarantee you won't even need it". I guess having nuclear weapons Ukraine would be a much considerable in current state (Ukraine had 3rd or 4th nuclear potential in the world, correct me if i'm mistaken).
  why not. Ukraine already has the best army on the continent, it's time to move on and become a nuclear power, and then into space... to Mars, you have the potential  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 16, 2015, 11:44:45 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 16, 2015, 02:32:31 pm
Well sharing the largest European land border with RF and being a potential NATO member I'd say you are hardly goiny to be coming from an objective standpoint.

Ukraine isn't left alone and has recieved support from NATO & EU countries, any direct military intervention would end in a diplomatic disaster and more violence.
Wow, I wasn't aware I was literally Finland.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 17, 2015, 12:31:03 am
Quote from: Xant on July 16, 2015, 11:44:45 pm
Wow, I wasn't aware I was literally Finland.

ur a drukn fabazz.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 17, 2015, 06:40:30 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on July 17, 2015, 12:31:03 am
ur a drukn fabazz.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2015, 09:37:00 am
Quote from: Vovka on July 16, 2015, 09:12:44 pm
  why not. Ukraine already has the best army on the continent, it's time to move on and become a nuclear power, and then into space... to Mars, you have the potential  :P

Ukraine has acceded to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Ukraine inherited about 5,000 nuclear weapons when it became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991, making its nuclear arsenal the third-largest in the world.[83] By 1996, Ukraine had voluntarily disposed of all nuclear weapons within its territory, disassembling them in Russia.[84]


Meanwhile in Russia (taking over Ukraine in 1 max 2 days):

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 17, 2015, 10:07:18 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2015, 09:37:00 am
Ukraine has acceded to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Ukraine inherited about 5,000 nuclear weapons when it became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991, making its nuclear arsenal the third-largest in the world.[83] By 1996, Ukraine had voluntarily disposed of all nuclear weapons within its territory, disassembling them in Russia.[84]


Meanwhile in Russia (taking over Ukraine in 1 max 2 days):

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This is TRAINING. For when you need to save Kursk 2 and have nothing more than a bucket and a shovel!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2015, 11:43:49 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2015, 09:37:00 am
Ukraine inherited about 5,000 nuclear weapons when it became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991, making its nuclear arsenal the third-largest in the world.[83]
it's not about how many u had, but how soon it all will appears in the pawnshop of East and Africa  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on July 17, 2015, 12:24:50 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2015, 09:37:00 am
Ukraine has acceded to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Ukraine inherited about 5,000 nuclear weapons when it became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991, making its nuclear arsenal the third-largest in the world.[83] By 1996, Ukraine had voluntarily disposed of all nuclear weapons within its territory, disassembling them in Russia.[84]


Meanwhile in Russia (taking over Ukraine in 1 max 2 days):

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At least they are not coloring grass with green dye to make it look more fresh :mrgreen:
Common practice in one  glorious NATO  army before it go full retard ..err PRO.     
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on July 17, 2015, 12:25:39 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 17, 2015, 11:43:49 am
it's not about how many u had, but how soon it all will appears in the pawnshop of East and Africa  :P

Well, they shipped them back to Russia in exchange for the promise that they'll respect their borders in the future(Budapest Memorandum).

Bottom line is hold onto your nukes no matter what.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 17, 2015, 12:46:02 pm
Quote from: Paul on July 17, 2015, 12:25:39 pm
Well, they shipped them back to Russia in exchange for the promise that they'll respect their borders in the future(Budapest Memorandum).
Bottom line is hold onto your nukes no matter what.
we respect their borders  :P now even more than before  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 17, 2015, 12:53:30 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 16, 2015, 11:44:45 pm
Wow, I wasn't aware I was literally Finland.

Yeah thats exactly what I'm saying, although your arrogance is enough for the entire country to be sure. Obviously your nationality has no impact on your views, unlike those filthy brainwashed russians, and clearly it is not "anything to do with anything".


Quote from: [ptx] on July 16, 2015, 03:02:57 pm
But then again, having had no experience of Kremlin politics affecting you or your country in a significant way, you can hardly be objective as well.

No and I've never claimed to be objective, simply offering a different view point and interprtation of this crisis.  NATO declared a desire to form a strategic partnership with RF while also unifying continental powers in a military alliance, aims that were incompatible in the real world and were criticised before the 1993 debates. Michael Rühle, Head of NATO’s Energy Security section, wrote a very good article on this: http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2014/russia-ukraine-nato-crisis/nato-enlargement-russia/en/index.htm

I'm not a Putin appolgist or some kind of slavophile, I just believe the deterioration in NATO-RF relations is not as clear cut as some would portray it. Russia is undoubtedly the  aggressor and bears the brunt of responsibility for this breakdown, but the west is not blameless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2015, 01:06:18 pm
Quote from: Paul on July 17, 2015, 12:25:39 pm
Well, they shipped them back to Russia in exchange for the promise that they'll respect their borders in the future(Budapest Memorandum).

Bottom line is hold onto your nukes no matter what.

Well besides that Putin confessed that they were ready to use nuclear weapons in case of military conflict in Crimea (but they were sure there would be no military conflict huehuehue). Well, just a good side note not to make any deals with Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 17, 2015, 12:53:30 pm
Yeah thats exactly what I'm saying, although your arrogance is enough for the entire country to be sure. Obviously your nationality has no impact on your views, unlike those filthy brainwashed russians, and clearly it is not "anything to do with anything".
Yes, precisely. Why would my nationality have anything to do with my views?

1) Finland has nothing to fear from Russia. Finland is not Ukraine, and Russia knows it. There are no split loyalties here. Finland has successfully fought off Russia before. Finland has nothing that is important enough for Russia to lose all the men, resources and international standing it would take to wage a successful war. And that's not taking into account the perfect terrain for guerrilla war, the highest defense willingness in the Western world, the amount of guns owned by the population and the focus on guerrilla training in the military and the fact that pretty much every man knows how to shoot and work in squads. Unless Finland steals a nuke and uses it against Russia, they're not attacking.
2) I'm not a retarded nationalist. I am not my country. I did not choose to be born in Finland. I don't have tribalist feelings for my "fellow countrymen" just because they're "Finnish" and I'm "Finnish."

I'm very sorry if not being a nationalist is supremely hard for you to understand, must be a hard life getting offended for your country all the time. But I guess it pays off when you can celebrate your "country" winning a football match and act like you had a hand in it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 17, 2015, 02:17:23 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
1) Finland has nothing to fear from Russia.
Yes there are.
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
Finland is not Ukraine, and Russia knows it. There are no split loyalties here.
Not yet, but there are enough socialist and leftist fuckers that still live in what we call 60'. Natoon.
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
Finland has successfully fought off Russia before.
Yes, that was like 70 years ago and totally different generation. Now current western kid drink Red Bull, eat McDonald's and exercise by watching action movies from Netflix.

Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
Finland has nothing that is important enough for Russia to lose all the men, resources and international standing it would take to wage a successful war.
Yes there are, fresh nature, fresh lake water and all the infrastructures already build just to annex. Natoon.
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
And that's not taking into account the perfect terrain for guerrilla war, the highest defense willingness in the Western world
Yes, perfect and good terrain for guerrilla war, still i would move another country if there was war in Finland. Fuck wars, I'm too old for war'ing and shooting somewhere in deep forest eating shit food. Plus i have too much to lose irl, just to play some wargame, meh, sounds boring to me. and btw: Natoon.
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
, the amount of guns owned by the population and the focus on guerrilla training in the military and the fact that pretty much every man knows how to shoot and work in squads.
Yes, there are plenty of guns and knives in Finland, still last time i shot with a rifle was like 10 years ago... Much soldier, such shooting skill. Natoon.
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
Unless Finland steals a nuke and uses it against Russia, they're not attacking.
Nukes are bad, mm'key. don't use them. Go check Steam, all the Fallout game there show the aftermatch world is bad, not good, mmkey.
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
2) I'm not a retarded nationalist. I am not my country. I did not choose to be born in Finland. I don't have tribalist feelings for my "fellow countrymen" just because they're "Finnish" and I'm "Finnish."

I'm very sorry if not being a nationalist is supremely hard for you to understand, must be a hard life getting offended for your country all the time. But I guess it pays off when you can celebrate your "country" winning a football match and act like you had a hand in it.

Too lazy and gotta leave home, work time over. weekend, fun fun fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FKGqA8t18M
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on July 17, 2015, 02:23:05 pm
What makes you think Russia will have chance at conquering Finland today, when they couldn't do it when they were strongest?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 17, 2015, 02:40:15 pm
It always make me laugh when I see people sooo proud of not being tribalistic. You're the weird abberation, not "nationalists". You only have the luxury of seeing yourself entirely as an individual because a chain of your ancestors stretching back to the dawn of humanity did not. Tribalism, collective social constructs were an evolutionary advantage, and I'd argue still are.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 17, 2015, 02:45:25 pm
Quote from: Osakasa on July 17, 2015, 02:17:23 pm
Yes, that was like 70 years ago and totally different generation. Now current western kid drink Red Bull, eat McDonald's and exercise by watching action movies from Netflix.
Seventy years ago Finland's military was in shambles with barely any equipment. The current military has everything they could ever wish for, in comparison. The "kids these days" is a tired old cliché that even if true would also apply to Russians. Kids these days are actually healthier, stronger, taller, smarter and faster at adapting new things than they were 70 years ago. Fact.
Quote from: Osakasa on July 17, 2015, 02:17:23 pm
Yes there are, fresh nature, fresh lake water and all the infrastructures already build just to annex
If you think Russia would want to become a permanent highly rogue state just for some fresh nature (+ have a much worse Chechnya on their hands), you don't know what you're talking about. This is after so much in losses that it would take them decades to recover.

Quote from: Osakasa on July 17, 2015, 02:17:23 pm
Fuck wars, I'm too old for war'ing and shooting somewhere in deep forest eating shit food. Plus i have too much to lose irl, just to play some wargame, meh, sounds boring to me.
Uh, okay? And? I'm pretty sure Finland's defense doesn't rest entirely on your shoulders.

Quote from: Oberyn on July 17, 2015, 02:40:15 pm
It always make me laugh when I see people sooo proud of not being tribalistic. You're the weird abberation, not "nationalists". You only have the luxury of seeing yourself entirely as an individual because a chain of your ancestors stretching back to the dawn of humanity did not. Tribalism, collective social constructs were an evolutionary advantage, and I'd argue still are.

I knew you'd arrive with your favorite speech when I mentioned tribalism. It's like the summon-Oberyn button.

What are you talking about? When did I claim it was normal not to be tribalistic? When did I claim I care? Why should I care about what natural selection programmed into humans? What does any of this have to do with anything I said?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 17, 2015, 03:13:38 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 02:45:25 pm
What are you talking about? When did I claim it was normal not to be tribalistic? When did I claim I care? Why should I care about what natural selection programmed into humans? What does any of this have to do with anything I said?

I'm just saying it made me laugh. Because it is hilarious.

Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 02:45:25 pm
even if true would also apply to Russians. Kids these days are actually healthier, stronger, taller, smarter and faster at adapting new things than they were 70 years ago. Fact.

http://www.worldobesity.org/site_media/uploads/v2PDFforwebsiteEU27.pdf

Practically half your population is overweight. Almost 1/5th obese. Any other "facts" you want to give out? Those numbers were collected in the 90's too. It's much worse now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on July 17, 2015, 03:33:06 pm
If it comes to war, obese will quickly shed those extra pounds in mobilization camps. And end up being much stronger than people were 70 years ago, because their government (any government) will pump them will all kinds of chemistry, just to succeed in protecting their homeland. These days, you can carve 200 kg slob into fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger in six months time.

Also, Russia attacking Finland and Baltics is just propaganda. Ain't going to happen. Doubt Russians ever considered it as viable. It is more of western media construct and it pops up everywhere these days, even in popular TV shows like The Strain (S02E01) where in one scene on the radio they are broadcasting this:

Quote
With Russia's surprise annexation of Latvia and Lithuania.

Here's the episode script if you don't believe me: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=the-strain-2014&episode=s02e01
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on July 17, 2015, 03:56:06 pm
Fun fact, afaik the Finnish service rifle traditionally uses WP standard, like 7,62x54R or 7,62x39, so they can live off stolen/looted ammo in case of a war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 17, 2015, 04:07:43 pm
Quote from: Paul on July 17, 2015, 03:56:06 pm
Fun fact, afaik the Finnish service rifle traditionally uses WP standard, like 7,62x54R or 7,62x39, so they can live off stolen/looted ammo in case of a war.
x39.

Quote from: Oberyn on July 17, 2015, 03:13:38 pm
I'm just saying it made me laugh. Because it is hilarious.

http://www.worldobesity.org/site_media/uploads/v2PDFforwebsiteEU27.pdf

Practically half your population is overweight. Almost 1/5th obese. Any other "facts" you want to give out? Those numbers were collected in the 90's too. It's much worse now.
Well, I'm glad you had a laugh because you saw your favorite word even if your subsequent post had nothing to do with anything.

Yes, "overweight", which means nothing.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Overweight_%283%29.jpg

Someone with that body type would be able to lose it very fast. And Infantry, the people who need to be fit, make up 15% (closer to 10% usually) of armed forces.

A study conducted in 2003 had actually slightly improved statistics. Any other facts you want?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 17, 2015, 04:52:28 pm
Quote from: Leshma on July 17, 2015, 03:33:06 pm
Also, Russia attacking Finland and Baltics is just propaganda. Ain't going to happen. Doubt Russians ever considered it as viable. It is more of western media construct and it pops up everywhere these days, even in popular TV shows like The Strain (S02E01) where in one scene on the radio they are broadcasting this:


It's not a propaganda. Believe it or not but when in 2008 after Georgia they said that Ukraine (Crimea in particular) is next I was more like "what should happen for Russia to annex Crimea?", not that I entirely couldn't believe it but it was very unlikely. Crisis between Russia and Ukraine is a long story but I wouldn't expect it to be a war that fast. There are regions in Latvia which have the same situation as it was in Ukraine, there are regions that have overwhelming Russian population. They're not only Russian speaking but the majority of them have limited rights (they can't vote if I'm not mistaken). There are A LOT of russian speaking people living in Estonia (for example, 3rd largest city in Estonia: Narva. According to Wiki: 82,21% of population are Russians and only 3.75% of Estonians). What does it take for them to make propaganda machine work that way? "Russians are being humiliated! We can't let our brothers down!", some time later "Referendum in some city with Russians".

Also, Moldova. If you know Moldova still doesn't have any control over Transnistria which is widely supported exclusively by Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 17, 2015, 05:16:15 pm
To no one's surprise...

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/never-before-seen-footage-reveals-russian-backed-rebels-arriving-at-the-wreckage-of-mh17/story-fnizu68q-1227444676268
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on July 17, 2015, 05:27:26 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 17, 2015, 04:52:28 pm

It's not a propaganda. Believe it or not but when in 2008 after Georgia they said that Ukraine (Crimea in particular) is next I was more like "what should happen for Russia to annex Crimea?", not that I entirely couldn't believe it but it was very unlikely. Crisis between Russia and Ukraine is a long story but I wouldn't expect it to be a war that fast. There are regions in Latvia which have the same situation as it was in Ukraine, there are regions that have overwhelming Russian population. They're not only Russian speaking but the majority of them have limited rights (they can't vote if I'm not mistaken). There are A LOT of russian speaking people living in Estonia (for example, 3rd largest city in Estonia: Narva. According to Wiki: 82,21% of population are Russians and only 3.75% of Estonians). What does it take for them to make propaganda machine work that way? "Russians are being humiliated! We can't let our brothers down!", some time later "Referendum in some city with Russians".

Also, Moldova. If you know Moldova still doesn't have any control over Transnistria which is widely supported exclusively by Russia.

Russians seized the opportunity in Ukraine. Without Maidan they couldn't attempt to annex Crimea as easily. As for Novorussia, yes it is supported and somewhat controlled by Russia but you don't understand mindset of people who live there. They consider themselves to be greater Russians than people who actually live in Russia. If you think that Russia backing off from eastern Ukraine will magically solve the issue, you are wrong.

Moldova and Ukraine aren't the same as Baltic states and Finland. Baltic states and Finland are part of NATO and EU and much more stable than countries such as Georgia/Moldova/Ukraine. You can't sell them revolution, they are past it. Therefore Russia have no alibi to interfere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 17, 2015, 05:32:32 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 17, 2015, 02:40:15 pm
It always make me laugh when I see people sooo proud of not being tribalistic. You're the weird abberation, not "nationalists". You only have the luxury of seeing yourself entirely as an individual because a chain of your ancestors stretching back to the dawn of humanity did not. Tribalism, collective social constructs were an evolutionary advantage, and I'd argue still are.

I couldn't care less about what helped my ancestors, and I don't think it's still an evolutionary advantage. It used to be when people lived in tribes of a hundred people under constant "warfare" with other tribes. Not so much today in developed, democratic countries with much of the world being accessible for travel, 99.9999% of the population of your "tribe" no even knowing you and the gene pool of all the tribes becoming more intermingled by the day.

Besides, why should I even care about evolutionary advantages to dictate my individual behavior?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 17, 2015, 06:34:22 pm
Quote from: Kafein on July 17, 2015, 05:16:15 pm
To no one's surprise...

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/never-before-seen-footage-reveals-russian-backed-rebels-arriving-at-the-wreckage-of-mh17/story-fnizu68q-1227444676268
Video on that site doesn't work for me.
Snippets of the full length one.
Obviously fake by CIA/EU/NATO. Russia would never make mistakes and back the wrong side.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 17, 2015, 06:50:32 pm
Quote from: Kafein on July 17, 2015, 05:32:32 pm
I couldn't care less about what helped my ancestors, and I don't think it's still an evolutionary advantage. It used to be when people lived in tribes of a hundred people under constant "warfare" with other tribes. Not so much today in developed, democratic countries with much of the world being accessible for travel, 99.9999% of the population of your "tribe" no even knowing you and the gene pool of all the tribes becoming more intermingled by the day.

Besides, why should I even care about evolutionary advantages to dictate my individual behavior?
Because it's hilarious!!!!!!!!!1111
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 17, 2015, 08:47:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 01:41:17 pm
Yes, precisely. Why would my nationality have anything to do with my views?

1) Finland has nothing to fear from Russia. Finland is not Ukraine, and Russia knows it. There are no split loyalties here. Finland has successfully fought off Russia before. Finland has nothing that is important enough for Russia to lose all the men, resources and international standing it would take to wage a successful war. And that's not taking into account the perfect terrain for guerrilla war, the highest defense willingness in the Western world, the amount of guns owned by the population and the focus on guerrilla training in the military and the fact that pretty much every man knows how to shoot and work in squads. Unless Finland steals a nuke and uses it against Russia, they're not attacking.
2) I'm not a retarded nationalist. I am not my country. I did not choose to be born in Finland. I don't have tribalist feelings for my "fellow countrymen" just because they're "Finnish" and I'm "Finnish."

I'm very sorry if not being a nationalist is supremely hard for you to understand, must be a hard life getting offended for your country all the time. But I guess it pays off when you can celebrate your "country" winning a football match and act like you had a hand in it.

Yeah but whether you consciously choose to be a 'retarded nationalist' or not your culture, education and morality are all still affected by your country of birth and upbringing and so is your perspective on this discussion.  Also football is for pussies, rugby is way better.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 17, 2015, 09:07:44 pm
Quote from: Casimir on July 17, 2015, 08:47:34 pm
Yeah but whether you consciously choose to be a 'retarded nationalist' or not your culture, education and morality are all still affected by your country of birth and upbringing and so is your perspective on this discussion.  Also football is for pussies, rugby is way better.
No, none of those are affected by my country of birth. I can assure you that my ethics differ drastically from the common Finnish ones and I take part in no "Finnish culture." I had no opinion about Russians until I started meeting a lot of them. And in point of fact, I think Putin is a really cool president and I'm kind of morbidly curious about what he'd be able to accomplish if he was the president of America instead of a country of dumb drunks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 17, 2015, 10:00:00 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 17, 2015, 09:07:44 pm
I think Putin is a really cool president

A really cool president... pffff... jesus fucking hell. cooool, Putin is a really coool president. Sorry, just speechless.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 17, 2015, 10:19:07 pm
Quote from: Osakasa on July 17, 2015, 10:00:00 pm
A really cool president... pffff... jesus fucking hell. cooool, Putin is a really coool president. Sorry, just speechless.
Well argued.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on July 17, 2015, 11:13:32 pm
Putin isn't genius, he just isn't drunkard idiot like his predecessor(s). He wouldn't mean anything for USA, because they aren't one man show. Russia is totalitarian society and that is why someone like Putin can do things in there.

Obama seems like a puppet because he actually is, just like every Murican president in last couple decades. Former actor, saxophone player, father's son, black man. Each of them serves a purpose, to show certain population they can have their own president. American presidents are like a fad, they get chosen at certain times because someone thinks it is time for certain personality to ascend to the "throne". There will be Mexican president soon, he'll probably be openly gay :wink:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 17, 2015, 11:16:32 pm
Obama is weak and lets Americans get fucked all over the world without a word. Putin is an actual leader, or at least it appears that way.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 17, 2015, 11:40:41 pm
Xant, we both know everything what happens in Russian can't be blamed by Putin, right? Still, Putin is far away from "cool". Putin is the very reason why western people are sceptical toward russians nowadays, and why there are economic sanctions. Can't say which one was the bad guy in Georgian war or who started it, anyway it happened. Those captured territories are still outside of Georgia and those were captured by no one else but russian troops. No little green men or anyone else. This military conflict happened at russian border, if wanted, Putin could have been able to stop it.

Current situation in Ukraine is another military conflict at Russian border. Regardless who was quilty this time, Russian has two (2) military conflicts in ten years at its border. And we all know that if anyone, it's Putin who could do some co-opearation with western countries this time, end Ukraine conflict within few weeks by simply closing their supply line. Yes, there might be some selfproduct in those areas but still, if Putin wanted, those pro-motherfuckers could be hunted in few weeks with co-operations. Yet, open dialogue with Putin and Russia is shining with absence.

Putin plays well with russian citizens. Poor people without job or low salary mean low standard of living. Blame western cultures and show as a cool dude who protect their motherland. Start a military conflict (or at least keep it going) and hire citizens with some better salary and there you get a nice bunch of soldiers doing dirty job. Citizens who are already living poorly, nothing to lose and with some nice "i'm riding on bearback while shooting eagles with AK" -status are ready to die for mothercountry (and sure honestly think for good purpose).

Russia really looked a potential country to develope, got rid of old commie status and show themself as a new modern country in ~2000. Russian even got accepted as a member of World Trade Organization, after almost 20 years, they finally managed to do it. And this downhill, which Russian and its citizen are facing today, is no one else's fault than Putin's. Not totally, but huge part of it. If there is a country where president has power, it's Russia.

And now Xant, I really want to see you defending Putin and his actions. I really do.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 12:29:26 am
Never said that russian actions were good, but wanted to show that not only Russia did bad things, USA sponsored Ukraine maidan. And Russia reacted to that. And because of that Ukraine suffers now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on July 18, 2015, 05:47:21 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 12:29:26 am
Never said that russian actions were good, but wanted to show that not only Russia did bad things, USA sponsored Ukraine maidan. And Russia reacted to that. And because of that Ukraine suffers now.

this guy still doesnt get it, not sure why anybody bothers trying to communicate with him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 07:27:11 am
Quote from: AntiBlitz on July 18, 2015, 05:47:21 am
this guy still doesnt get it, not sure why anybody bothers trying to communicate with him.
Why then there is so many visits of USA politics and generals to Ukraine during Maidan? Or maybe you are too blind to admit it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 18, 2015, 09:10:05 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 12:29:26 am
Never said that russian actions were good, but wanted to show that not only Russia did bad things, USA sponsored Ukraine maidan. And Russia reacted to that. And because of that Ukraine suffers now.

Nicko, you still doing this USA-nonsense :( Really, no one believes it, no one will take it seriously. It's like telling to the scientist about Adam and Even and how whole universume was created in 7 days by God. They just don't take it seriously and consider that nonsense.

Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 12:29:26 am
Never said that russian actions were good
And I never said and will not say that Russian military conflicts are citizens' fault. Really, what you (literally you Nicko) or your family with friends could do about in real life? Really, what are they chances to stop some conflict when even more politically power opposition persons can do nothing about it. Stronger political persons who are against Putin's vision are exiled from Russia (like Garry Kasparov even though he is from Azerbaijan), they are locked to prison (like Mikhail Khodorkovsky) or they are just killed like Anna Politkovskaya. All even stronger political persons are not able to stop Putin's vision and his political view. This is the reason why I can't blame russian citizens about it, and I know you feel some responsible to defence your country and political leaders. I don't accuse you from anything, you really are a prison in your own country. We have a lot of russians in Finland and they mostly think about Putin "what an asshole". Really, those russians are literally thinking outside of the box when they have got a chance to live outside of the box.

Did you Nicko know that Ukraine and EU were making a deal about free trade and more open movement [1]. There are are tons of people in Ukraine who are seeing EU as a new chance to get better life, the way develope country even more. This wasn't Putin's favor ofcourse, mostly because important gas pipes are going through Ukraine [2]. Like we know, Russian economy depends vastly about natural gas. What you blame US for an oil war, well, here you got a gas war. And I will underline, like US citizens are not able to stop their military actions, it's totally same story for russians. Only difference is, that the are huge protests in US by it's own citizens about military conflict whereas I hear no sound about Russian citizens.

To make a some conclusion, the leader you are looking up to is a total dick. As long as normal russian citizens are giving their support to Putin, as long you will live in misery.

(click to show/hide)

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25108022
[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/RUGasPipesMap.jpg
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 09:23:51 am
Osakasa, thanks for a good answer, yes I agree with you. But there is one point. Every country has politics from other countries. But in Ukraine USA politics didn't just visit it. They openly supported this maidan. Also there is video where people from maidan asking money for being there, son of Baiden became one of the director of ukrainian oil company right that time. But gas foundation are in Donbass. If you will try to search, you will find how strong USA supported this revolution in Ukraine. Same as in Georgia and Moldova.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 18, 2015, 09:43:21 am
Yes, poor Russia, USA is really the reason it must war against its neighbors. I would copypaste the russia comic but I'm on a phone so imagine it's here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 18, 2015, 10:38:45 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 09:23:51 am
Osakasa, thanks for a good answer, yes I agree with you. But there is one point. Every country has politics from other countries. But in Ukraine USA politics didn't just visit it. They openly supported this maidan. Also there is video where people from maidan asking money for being there, son of Baiden became one of the director of ukrainian oil company right that time. But gas foundation are in Donbass. If you will try to search, you will find how strong USA supported this revolution in Ukraine. Same as in Georgia and Moldova.

Research whose sources? You do realise there's also pilots and ex-CIA employees with "inside info" even claiming that the planes never hit the twin towers and they say that their claims are based on strong facts and scientific evidence. Despite thousands of videos and quite undeniable certain facts saying that they did. As far as I know the greatest truth(that any normal person with little inside info can get their hands on) in these things is the conclusion that they always come to first. All other conclusions and articles AND books that come later with people saying "the truth" and people "with inside info" is generally always bullshit and payed by someone. Even if the conclusion sounds logical, its generally not. That, my russian friend, is why we think you are dumb. :mrgreen:

Honestly doing search about Maidan at this point is absolutely pointless. By now the Kremlin and probably every other anti-Western consipracytheorist and organisation with money has payed millions and millions to thousands of people to write and claim wrong info. You will never find the correct and truthful info about it now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 18, 2015, 10:53:14 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 09:23:51 am
If you will try to search, you will find how strong USA supported this revolution in Ukraine. Same as in Georgia and Moldova.

Yes, I didn't find any result how USA is supporing this revolution and such but i did find that there is an oil company in Simferopol, Crimea [1][2]. It seems, this oil company is currently being annexed.

[1] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BC%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C
[2] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%84%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%B7
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:22:59 am
Quote from: Osakasa on July 18, 2015, 10:53:14 am
Yes, I didn't find any result how USA is supporing this revolution and such but i did find that there is an oil company in Simferopol, Crimea [1][2]. It seems, this oil company is currently being annexed.

[1] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BC%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C
[2] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%84%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%B7
Ok I will help you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAjnMtazDE
that was before revolution happened
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 18, 2015, 11:30:55 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:22:59 am
Ok I will help you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAjnMtazDE
that was before revolution happened

Yep, have you watched the video that you posted? The title has nothing common with the content. Or maybe it's just another dark cyan with orange stripes diploma specialist who translated it.

If you mean that Ukraine received aid from some source during Maidan, then actually Russia gave Ukraine some money during that time (billions of $ IIRC). Basically means Russia sponsored Maidan in Ukraine.

MIND => BLOWN.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 18, 2015, 11:35:25 am
Posts video of speaker saying "We think police violence is bad, mmmkay! Keep applying and working towards the EU. We think that's cool!"
Expects people to see "They started the riot!"

Best bit "that was before revolution happened" when the speech clearly happened while Maidan protests were already running.

Seriously, how silly are you?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:38:10 am
Quote from: Molly on July 18, 2015, 11:35:25 am
Posts video of speaker saying "We think police violence is bad, mmmkay! Keep applying and working towards the EU. We think that's cool!"
Expects people to see "They started the riot!"

Best bit "that was before revolution happened" when the speech clearly happened while Maidan protests were already running.

Seriously, how silly are you?
You stupid molly, because first when militia beat people was before revolution, you don't even know how it was and trying to argue  :lol:
You just showed your stupidness ahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 18, 2015, 11:41:21 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:38:10 am
You stupid molly, because first when militia beat people was before revolution, you don't even know how it was and trying to argue  :lol:
You just showed your stupidness ahahaha
Yes, there clearly is this one single split second when the revolution happened. Totally wasn't happening over the course of weeks. Yes, mi iz of much stupidness ahahaha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 18, 2015, 11:42:29 am
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:38:10 am
You stupid molly, because first when militia beat people was before revolution, you don't even know how it was and trying to argue  :lol:
You just showed your stupidness ahahaha

He's not stupid. It's about you thinking that revolution is a tumbler during 1 bloody second (BAM, it happened then the other guy was like: oh fuck my life, I blinked during revolution and missed it)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 18, 2015, 11:48:20 am
I like how DonNicko ignored the fact he is wrong like a typical russian tard and instead tried to argue an irrelevant detail. Unsuccessfully, of course.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:50:49 am
I'm just retard who write here, because others already understood that there is no point to argue here. For me protests and revolution different things, for you seems the same, then OK. Anyway it doesn't cancel the fact that USA helped this maidan and supported it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: BASNAK on July 18, 2015, 12:00:20 pm
Quote from: JackieChan on July 02, 2015, 04:45:38 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login



Probably a repost but to lazy to read 600 + pages (unless you gimme looms)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 18, 2015, 01:03:50 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:50:49 am
I'm just retard who write here, because others already understood that there is no point to argue here. For me protests and revolution different things, for you seems the same, then OK. Anyway it doesn't cancel the fact that USA helped this maidan and supported it.
Then stop writing here, nobody gives a fuck about what you have to say. Literally no one is buying the shit you're peddling. Or if you insist on gracing us with more of your retarded russian logic, at least drop the martyr act. You won't get any sympathy with it.

And prove what you say is true. Your video already turned out to be BS. What is it with russians and Tovi linking to things they don't understand and still thinking it proves their point?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Umbra on July 18, 2015, 01:07:00 pm
Holy shit 687 pages
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 02:13:28 pm
Quote from: Xant on July 18, 2015, 01:03:50 pm
Then stop writing here, nobody gives a fuck about what you have to say. Literally no one is buying the shit you're peddling. Or if you insist on gracing us with more of your retarded russian logic, at least drop the martyr act. You won't get any sympathy with it.

And prove what you say is true. Your video already turned out to be BS. What is it with russians and Tovi linking to things they don't understand and still thinking it proves their point?
there is 687 pages of your nobody gives a fuck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 18, 2015, 02:25:52 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:22:59 am
Ok I will help you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAjnMtazDE
that was before revolution happened

Hmm... Okey, Thanks for the video. After watching it was nothing but typical "blaablaa boring", few adjectives with exaggerated tone of voice, as typical mmmerican speakers do. Still, I failed to see how this certain video proves that USA started revolution and forced little green men to come out of the bushes.

As you can see from the video at 4:10, "Since Ukraine independence 1991, United State has supported Ukrainians as they build democratian skills" [1]. This clearly shows that US has supported Ukraine waaaaayyy before than just ~a year ago. So what I try to say here: it wasn't like US people just dropped in Ukraine, few months later there is a military conflict, supported by US. USA was there way before, EU was getting closer to liberal ukrainians who were more intrested in to build their future with western culture than east.

[1] https://youtu.be/HkAjnMtazDE?t=250
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 18, 2015, 02:50:31 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 02:13:28 pm
there is 687 pages of your nobody gives a fuck.
Really, wanna bet that more people agree with my views? Who agrees with yours besides resident nuts who also believe in illuminati? Rhetorical question, even you know I'm right since you may be dumb but aren't medically blind. But very nice obvious comeback there buddy despite how obviously wrong it is. Very russian, I dare say.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 18, 2015, 04:15:40 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 02:13:28 pm
there is 687 pages of your nobody gives a fuck.

Your fellow red diploma economists. Jokes on you.



Also, guys, more than 2 months without Tovi in this thread, isn't it great?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Mala on July 18, 2015, 04:48:53 pm
Quote from: DonNicko on July 18, 2015, 11:22:59 am
Ok I will help you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAjnMtazDE
that was before revolution happened
As already pointed out, these five billion dollars was an investment for more then a decade to improve bureaucracy, governmental structure or training of the police force (you know, the guys who have to fight the protesters).
Even in russia were made similar investments to support the country after the end of the dictatorship.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 18, 2015, 05:19:04 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2015, 04:15:40 pm
Your fellow red diploma economists. Jokes on you.



Also, guys, more than 2 months without Tovi in this thread, isn't it great?
The last chick is going to get a good job anyway - even without me understanding anything specific, I know that... She has huge kabongas and shows them. Always a plus!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on July 19, 2015, 09:12:21 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 18, 2015, 04:15:40 pm
Also, guys, more than 2 months without Tovi in this thread, isn't it great?

Not really. This thread was fun with him. :(

Tovi was just bananas. All we have now is Nicko. And Nicko makes me sad because he is just an unlucky bastard from the motherland who refuses to believe how much he's being lied to.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Beauchamp on July 22, 2015, 01:07:28 am
cheaper oil from Iran, good job :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 22, 2015, 01:26:37 am
Quote from: Beauchamp on July 22, 2015, 01:07:28 am
cheaper oil from Iran, good job :)
الله أكبر الله أكبر
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 22, 2015, 03:16:04 am

wow that looked beautiful
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 22, 2015, 04:25:51 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on July 24, 2015, 02:29:30 am
Why are Ukrainians and Russians still killing each other? Grow up guys. Can't you just agree to some states rights bullshit in Eastern Ukraine where they pay tribute to Kiev and stay one country, but just allow Russian-flag waving Cossacks to go around beating up gays and hanging paintings of Putin everywhere or whatever the goal is?

I seriously don't understand the problem here when there is so much room for compromise. Fucking East Slav scum.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 24, 2015, 08:26:11 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 24, 2015, 02:29:30 am
    Why are Ukrainians and Russians still killing each other? Grow up guys. Can't you just agree to some states rights bullshit in Eastern Ukraine where they pay tribute to Kiev and stay one country, but just allow Russian-flag waving Cossacks to go around beating up gays and hanging paintings of Putin everywhere or whatever the goal is?
I seriously don't understand the problem here when there is so much room for compromise. Fucking East Slav scum.
Ukraine has two options. Sell all factories for half-price or continue to receive dollars for the war with Putin.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 24, 2015, 10:27:54 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 24, 2015, 02:29:30 am
Why are Ukrainians and Russians still killing each other? Grow up guys. Can't you just agree to some states rights bullshit in Eastern Ukraine where they pay tribute to Kiev and stay one country, but just allow Russian-flag waving Cossacks to go around beating up gays and hanging paintings of Putin everywhere or whatever the goal is?

I seriously don't understand the problem here when there is so much room for compromise. Fucking East Slav scum.
Lets see a typical russian answer:
Quote from: Vovka on July 24, 2015, 08:26:11 am
Ukraine ...<blablabla>... Putin.putler.
NOTICE - its "UKRAINE" first, not putler. Though in fact - its the opposite :rolleyes: Once russia stops pouring its bullshit on the flames - they will die out in a month or two...

As to why putler and his sheeple want to continue still? ... well... because he is an impersonation of average trying to cling to power with the only trick available to him: war and external enemy, both of which "unify" russias sheeple-populace and help divert from the actual bullshit that the local cleptocracy is throwing up.

Also - a bit from some twatter:
https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/623882251298832384/photo/1
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on July 24, 2015, 10:56:50 am
You know I have to admit Ukraine's government is prob very much to blame here, for not being transparently corrupt enough. Any proper Cold War 2.0 regime would be letting US and Russia woo and bribe them for decades without provoking one side too much. I guess overthrowing your democratically elected President a week after he announces some trade deal with Russia is bad for business and kinda awful negotiating lol.

It sounds like to me the West wants to invest in infrastructure and crap in Ukraine, aka open up McDonalds and steal oil prob lol or whatever, while Russia gets lots of cheap exports from Eastern Ukraine factories while Russia gives them fuel electricity etc? None of this shit is mutually exclusive in the first place..

If those idiots sat down and made a deal that made it legally binding and abundantly the USA prob is more interested in building businesses in Ukraine with loads of kickbacks down the line to Dick Cheney (Haliburton) or whoever is still pulling the strings, not NATO bases. Why would we want to nuke our only ride to the International Space Station?

I mean.. wouldn't Ukraine be more productive with more investment and fair trade by America AND Russia?

Quick google of Ukraine and Haliburton and it sounds pretty on point and extremely retarded.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/with-stakes-in-ukraine-us-companies-hope-for-stability/

America putting sanctions on Russia for their unlawful military intervention in Ukraine probably does more to damage Ukraine's economy instead of Russia's in the end I bet, since Russia is Ukraine's chief line of credit and primary trade partner. And the whole reason US officials are probably mad in the first place is how much money is being lost. Sanctions could be harming the country as bad as the neverending embarrassingly melodramatic secession attempts by random cities that are so painfully obvious as FSB operations from top to bottom staffed by drunk slav rednecks who get free vodka for waving a Russian made DPR flag around like its the fourth of july. This shit should've stopped after those idiots shot down a commericial airliner with big boy weapons that don't belong outside of first world (and I guess Russia counts too heh) militaries with real chains of command and crap.

Poor Ukraine. Is Russia just being greedy or is no one even negotiating in good faith to begin with?

Maybe we really should send someone like Donald Trump over there lmao, he'll figure out how to make everyone rich so no one gets all butt hurt about a deal and overthrows their lawful government or indiscriminately shells civilian packed cities with artillery or whatever for another year. This shit started out as contract negotiations about some loan crap that left half of Ukraine livid over the terms, maybe just rewind time if possible and make a better deal or something that has some profit and prosperity in it for all of us civilized people, East Vs West crap isn't even cool when both sides are actually more worried about crazy fucker islamic jihadists anyways. PPl make conspiracy theories to explain our shitty, downward spiraling globally corrupt international economy and immature, greedy leaders having temper tantrums when they don't get their way lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on July 24, 2015, 11:13:46 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 24, 2015, 10:56:50 am
You know I have to admit Ukraine's government is prob very much to blame here, for not being transparently corrupt enough. Any proper Cold War 2.0 regime would be letting US and Russia woo and bribe them for decades without provoking one side too much. I guess overthrowing your democratically elected President a week after he announces some trade deal with Russia is bad for business and kinda awful negotiating lol.

It sounds like to me the West wants to invest in infrastructure and crap in Ukraine, aka open up McDonalds and steal oil prob lol or whatever, while Russia gets lots of cheap exports from Eastern Ukraine factories while Russia gives them fuel electricity etc? None of this shit is mutually exclusive in the first place..

If those idiots sat down and made a deal that made it legally binding and abundantly the USA prob is more interested in building businesses in Ukraine with loads of kickbacks down the line to Dick Cheney (Haliburton) or whoever is still pulling the strings, not NATO bases. Why would we want to nuke our only ride to the International Space Station?

I mean.. wouldn't Ukraine be more productive with more investment and fair trade by America AND Russia?

Quick google of Ukraine and Haliburton and it sounds pretty on point and extremely retarded.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/with-stakes-in-ukraine-us-companies-hope-for-stability/

America putting sanctions on Russia for their unlawful military intervention in Ukraine probably does more to damage Ukraine's economy instead of Russia's in the end I bet, since Russia is Ukraine's chief line of credit and primary trade partner. And the whole reason US officials are probably mad in the first place is how much money is being lost. Sanctions could be harming the country as bad as the neverending embarrassingly melodramatic secession attempts by random cities that are so painfully obvious as FSB operations from top to bottom staffed by drunk slav rednecks who get free vodka for waving a Russian made DPR flag around like its the fourth of july. This shit should've stopped after those idiots shot down a commericial airliner with big boy weapons that don't belong outside of first world (and I guess Russia counts too heh) militaries with real chains of command and crap.

Poor Ukraine. Is Russia just being greedy or is no one even negotiating in good faith to begin with?

Maybe we really should send someone like Donald Trump over there lmao, he'll figure out how to make everyone rich so no one gets all butt hurt about a deal and overthrows their lawful government or indiscriminately shells civilian packed cities with artillery or whatever for another year. This shit started out as contract negotiations about some loan crap that left half of Ukraine livid over the terms, maybe just rewind time if possible and make a better deal or something that has some profit and prosperity in it for all of us civilized people, East Vs West crap isn't even cool when both sides are actually more worried about crazy fucker islamic jihadists anyways. PPl make conspiracy theories to explain our shitty, downward spiraling globally corrupt international economy and immature, greedy leaders having temper tantrums when they don't get their way lol

You are discussing things from a reasonable perspective, GIVEN THAT ALL THE PLAYERS act REASONABLY. Would you call an artificial war reasonable? Would you call reasonable denying Ukraine its right of choice? ala - "if you sign that agreement with EU, our treaties on borders and other are null and void" (which is what some punk from russian government said to Ukraine just before all hell broke loose)? russia is NOT a reasonable partner in any sort of negotiations, until it comes to its senses. Unfortunately - its that simple...

As to negotiating with russia... there was this ... Merkel? She tried in world leader summit... Thought of herself as "old pal of putler", understanding him, russian language, old easter germany born, etc... Lets see what she has to say with regards to putler and negotiating with him... OH, here is the line after their midnight discussions... "dude is from another reality" (sue me if I'm wrong on the quote :P ) Sooo... who do you want to negotiate with? Puppets, who have no say? putler, who is in another reality?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on July 24, 2015, 01:07:54 pm
Quote from: Kuujis on July 24, 2015, 11:13:46 am
OH, here is the line after their midnight discussions... "dude is from another reality" (sue me if I'm wrong on the quote :P ) Sooo... who do you want to negotiate with? Puppets, who have no say? putler, who is in another reality?

Yeah he's from a reality much like America where we don't respect anything European leaders have to say or could theoretically (with America's permission of course lol) do lol. Having no economic/energy independence, or technological innovation in basically every possible sector, no military, nor even any more great musicians or artists or philosophers or anything even..

Russia and America basically chaperoned a world full of idiots in tandem for decades of unprecedented peace, prosperity, and technological advancement. Operating on "another level" from the European powers since all of you, Germany especially, tried as hard as they could to make the 20th century the last century ever for the human race.  Merkel prob spent 5 minutes talking to the President of the Russian Federation like he was some Greek deadbeat goon while making a bunch of unilateral demands for concessions until her top aide whispered in Merkel's ear "uh Madam? Half of Europe will freeze to death if Russia cuts off our fuel.. and I owe the Russian mafia 10 million dollars from a bad Superbowl bet, please don't piss their boss Putin off" so she excused herself for a vaginal douching as an excuse to walk out of negotiations accomplishing absolutely nothing for the people of Ukraine. Then of course began immediately insulting him in the press the next day like thats a good way for the leaders of global superpower states to be diplomatic at all.

Honestly Putin has done a better job with Russia than Merkel has done with the EU as well lol. I predict in the very near future the USA and Russia (obviously with Putin still in charge) will be buds again, maybe organizing the first manned mission to Mars or something for the sake of human civilization and science like we always try to do, while elsewhere in the world the UK drops the Euro, causing all your banks to fail, ISIS begins using the disenfranchised Arab ghettos that currently litter Europe to launch missiles making Paris resemble Gaza, with destitute Greek citizens assassinating German politicians and detonating suicide car bombs as the only way left to stop Merkel's apartheid austerity that is terrorizing Southern Europe.

Haha now that I think about it, this whole Ukraine (and imminent collapse of the European Union lol) situation is basically because Germany started taking itself seriously as some kind of superpower that sets international standards, instead of their real history as dozens of warmongering embittered polities/retards who only unite as a nation to go rampaging around Central Europe like some autistic toddler's tantrum while using Eastern Europeans like in Ukraine as slave labor, then and now. If they aren't too busy genociding them by the tens of millions I guess lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on July 24, 2015, 01:45:01 pm
Your ignorance of history and world affairs is baffling. I sincerely hope you're just stereotyping the uneducated, degenerate redneck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: cmp on July 24, 2015, 01:47:47 pm
You actually fall for that? I thought it was overdone, a bit more subtle and it would have worked much better..
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on July 24, 2015, 01:59:26 pm
It was overdone, but I'm afraid all the posturing covers an embarrassing kernel of sincerity. Read some serious scholarships on these topics, Smoothrich, and try travelling outside the US. It's a big world out there.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Osakasa on July 24, 2015, 02:05:19 pm
(click to show/hide)

This is the reason why I love freedom of speech. You have no freaking idea what you will get. Might fell for a trap as cmp already hinted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on July 24, 2015, 02:33:49 pm
Someone actually reads Smoothrich's long posts?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on July 24, 2015, 02:50:00 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 24, 2015, 01:07:54 pm
I predict in the very near future the USA and Russia (obviously with Putin still in charge) will be buds again

USA and Russia were never buds. Has something to do with being superpowers competing for supremacy. Which isn't the case these days, but used to be in the past. China and USA are very much involved with each other but they aren't buds either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Oberyn on July 24, 2015, 02:52:12 pm
wrong thread
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 24, 2015, 04:16:19 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 24, 2015, 07:22:26 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 24, 2015, 08:30:39 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Dezilagel on July 24, 2015, 08:52:13 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 24, 2015, 08:30:39 pm
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpp054kbCLM[/youtube]

httpSEEAIIEYYY://
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: DaveUKR on July 24, 2015, 08:53:45 pm
Quote from: Yarl on July 24, 2015, 07:22:26 pm
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How's your braindead crush (Poklonskaya) doing? She claims that Nikolay II didn't legitimately abdicate the throne. And that document has no power. Toplel. Coming from traitor prosecutor from Crimea. Haha, that's like Tovi speaking about common sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 25, 2015, 02:30:46 am
Quote from: Angantyr on July 24, 2015, 01:59:26 pm
It was overdone, but I'm afraid all the posturing covers an embarrassing kernel of sincerity. Read some serious scholarships on these topics, Smoothrich, and try travelling outside the US. It's a big world out there.

Angantyr I know you're a nice person, but really save yourself some time and don't mind Smoothrich.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Yarl on July 25, 2015, 01:09:18 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 24, 2015, 08:53:45 pm
How's your braindead crush (Poklonskaya) doing? She claims that Nikolay II didn't legitimately abdicate the throne. And that document has no power. Toplel. Coming from traitor prosecutor from Crimea. Haha, that's like Tovi speaking about common sense.
she is cute
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on July 25, 2015, 02:02:57 pm
Quote from: DaveUKR on July 24, 2015, 08:53:45 pm
How's your braindead crush (Poklonskaya) doing? She claims that Nikolay II didn't legitimately abdicate the throne. And that document has no power. Toplel. Coming from traitor prosecutor from Crimea. Haha, that's like Tovi speaking about common sense.

nvm, would still bang
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on July 25, 2015, 02:14:56 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on July 27, 2015, 07:33:14 am
in ukraine its more natural - u don't need photoshop to show chocolate chip cookie shits  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 27, 2015, 07:41:25 am
Yup, just head to Donetsk :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on July 27, 2015, 05:07:12 pm
Inb4 manga about Crimea and she's tsundere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Nebun on July 28, 2015, 02:46:11 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on July 27, 2015, 07:41:25 am
Yup, just head to Donetsk :)

You very optimistic. Nope they not there yet. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on July 28, 2015, 04:45:05 pm
I like how the Americans intentionally put spelling mistakes on the stingers they delivered to the Ukraine. So now everyone thinks it was a false flag done by some really stupid freedom fighters. They even copied a mistake from Battlefield 3 - as seen in one of the first results in a google image search for the "stinger".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on July 28, 2015, 07:07:07 pm
http://kotaku.com/pro-tip-dont-copy-battlefield-3-stingers-1719695507

i had no idea what you were talking about; googled it, here is the link for anyone looking.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on July 28, 2015, 07:23:13 pm
The funny thing is that Rainer is a rather common German first name. I know one myself. Gotta tell him to stay away from planes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on July 28, 2015, 07:29:35 pm
Just make sure he doesn't fly Germanwings
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 28, 2015, 11:42:22 pm
(click to show/hide)

LOT NO

(click to show/hide)

LOT NO and woden box
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on July 29, 2015, 09:12:13 am
And neither of them have TRACKING RAINER written on them :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 29, 2015, 09:23:45 am
Quote from: [ptx] on July 29, 2015, 09:12:13 am
And neither of them have TRACKING RAINER written on them :lol:
I have a theory on this subject, I think the owner of stinger on the video is German mercenary named Rainer who erased "T"  :P
so that the video proves the US supply of weapons and participation in the conflict of foreign mercenaries from Germany  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 02, 2015, 10:35:27 pm
 :lol:


Can the Russians have even one event with their armed forces where their shit doesn't stop working in front of everyone?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 03, 2015, 03:10:45 am
someone died! lets lol'd at this!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 03, 2015, 04:31:18 am
107 people die every minute. I hope you're always downcast and depressed, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Sadly, I'm not. So I'm not going to feel bad for the death of a random person I didn't know just because it's on the news, while completely ignoring the deaths of millions of others.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on August 03, 2015, 08:38:38 am
Quote from: Xant on August 03, 2015, 04:31:18 am
107 people die every minute. I hope you're always downcast and depressed, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

He mourns the death of a soviet worker. It is not human life he mourns, but a unit of labour.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 03, 2015, 12:01:14 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 03, 2015, 04:31:18 am
107 people die every minute. I hope you're always downcast and depressed, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Sadly, I'm not. So I'm not going to feel bad for the death of a random person I didn't know just because it's on the news, while completely ignoring the deaths of millions of others.
inform me then ur mommy will be dead, i will make funny post about dat

http://kurier.at/politik/ausland/kein-ende-der-kaempfe-in-der-ukraine/144.830.125

"Was denken Sie, wie weit wird Putin gehen?

So weit wie wir es ihm erlauben – das gilt nicht für die Ukraine sondern für die ganze Welt. Ist es möglich, dass er Finnland angreift: Ja. Dass er die baltischen Staaten angreift: Ja. Die Staaten des Schwarzen Meeres: Ja. Wir kämpfen im Osten nicht nur für die Unabhängigkeit unseres Landes sondern für Demokratie, die Freiheit die Sicherheit Europas."

Now only Ukraine stands between you and the bayonets of our combat units
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 03, 2015, 05:23:23 pm
Well, if your rifles have bajonets, there is nothing to fear. Considering the latest display of Russian army's finest, Russian infantry will stumble by the hundreds, falling right into their own bajonets.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on August 03, 2015, 06:48:01 pm
Oh god is "bajonet" the actually correct form?

...

No, no it's not. It's "bayonet" you illiterate. A "j" in there makes no etymological sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 03, 2015, 07:06:45 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 03, 2015, 12:01:14 pm
inform me then ur mommy will be dead, i will make funny post about dat
Because my mother dying is obviously the exact same as a random Russian you don't know dying.

Also, since I'm not a slav, I'm immune to "fuck ure mother" "i hope ur mother die" from people on the internet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 03, 2015, 07:30:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on August 03, 2015, 06:48:01 pm
Oh god is "bajonet" the actually correct form?

...

No, no it's not. It's "bayonet" you illiterate. A "j" in there makes no etymological sense.

They call it like that where I live.

You can use the 'Y', if you want to be edgy.

huehuehheu

(although szurony is the hungarian name of the damn thing)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 04, 2015, 09:51:16 am
Quote from: Kafein on August 03, 2015, 06:48:01 pm
Oh god is "bajonet" the actually correct form?

...

No, no it's not. It's "bayonet" you illiterate. A "j" in there makes no etymological sense.
It's "Bajonett" in German and since it was a post from Vovka I replied to, I didn't feel like wasting even more time on the thing by google'ing the word in a dictionary.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 04, 2015, 11:50:42 am
Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2015, 09:51:16 am
It's "Bajonett" in German and since it was a post from Vovka I replied to, I didn't feel like wasting even more time on the thing by google'ing the word in a dictionary.
blame google not me!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on August 04, 2015, 07:36:50 pm
All this attention in Ukraine + Syria/Iraq is taking the attention away from Kim Jong Un. Shamefur


Kim be like

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on August 06, 2015, 09:28:00 am
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11776263/Vladimir-Putin-orders-destruction-of-contraband-Western-food.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/05/russia-incinerate-banned-eu-food-law-sanctions-putin

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on August 06, 2015, 10:32:50 am
Ban everything from outside, 'give Russian manufacturers a chance to enter market'. Yeah that's bound to end well
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 06, 2015, 07:16:54 pm
Doubt it will end badly. As we have noticed from this thread by now the pro-easterners dont really like the free market very much cause they are very bad at marketing compared to the West. So technically yeah, gg, for giving local markets a chance and keeping their money inside, but also sayonara to any foreign investments. But nobody but the Chinese had anything invested in Russia anyway, so again, not that heavy blow for them. Not a heavy blow for any of their opponents either. Its kinda funny that Russia does have some form of a safetynet and they are in such a bad situation, that their situation cant get much worse anyway. It will not however definately get any better either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kuujis on August 18, 2015, 08:18:56 am
Since things are heating up - need to move this closer to top  :rolleyes:

https://www.facebook.com/Vistickiy/posts/610326472418664

Now I can't say all the russians are idiots... makes me sad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 18, 2015, 08:53:51 am
Quote from: Kuujis on August 18, 2015, 08:18:56 am
Since things are heating up - need to move this closer to top  :rolleyes:

https://www.facebook.com/Vistickiy/posts/610326472418664

Now I can't say all the russians are idiots... makes me sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=122&v=cCEXKjZ5Eng

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the mere fact that he appeared with her in one place says that everything he says is only for $$  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on August 19, 2015, 03:29:36 pm
Do not worry, i hold breath for 30mins swim back to surface if sub breaks, wrestle giant squid along way.
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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 19, 2015, 07:32:02 pm
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real men do not use for diving submarine  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on August 20, 2015, 10:33:47 am
When Russia takes over Ukraine this will be the only kind of entertainment allowed.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on August 20, 2015, 08:58:48 pm
Quote from: LordBerenger on August 20, 2015, 10:33:47 am
When Russia takes over Ukraine this will be the kind of entertainment only allowed.

Only allowed when? At noon, christmas?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on August 20, 2015, 09:17:33 pm
Quote from: Siiem on August 20, 2015, 08:58:48 pm
Only allowed when? At noon, christmas?

Hanukkah
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 23, 2015, 08:54:27 pm
Ukraine Kharkov (city X)

a group Patriots ran like dogs for a man in T-shirt with the emblem of the Soviet Union, after he refused to take off it after the request of a bearded man in the end of the video  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on August 23, 2015, 10:37:54 pm
So? He went looking for a beating and found one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 23, 2015, 11:20:41 pm
Leader of the DNR, Zakarchenko has disappeared.

http://en.news-4-u.ru/media-reported-about-the-departure-zakharchenko-from-his-residence-in-donetsk.html (http://en.news-4-u.ru/media-reported-about-the-departure-zakharchenko-from-his-residence-in-donetsk.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on August 30, 2015, 01:26:19 am
Quote from: Christo on August 23, 2015, 11:20:41 pm
Leader of the DNR, Zakarchenko has disappeared.

http://en.news-4-u.ru/media-reported-about-the-departure-zakharchenko-from-his-residence-in-donetsk.html (http://en.news-4-u.ru/media-reported-about-the-departure-zakharchenko-from-his-residence-in-donetsk.html)

Oops...
https://youtu.be/fHTouTxaSaA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 30, 2015, 01:37:03 pm
Well, he reappeared then.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on August 30, 2015, 03:11:31 pm
Are you sure he disappeared to reappear again? Are you so naive to really believe that a shity site like this one news-4-u.ru, whose content on 80 % consists of Google ads, can provide some kind of truthful information?  Lulz...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: AntiBlitz on August 30, 2015, 04:03:13 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on August 30, 2015, 03:11:31 pm
Are you sure he disappeared to reappear again? Are you so naive to really believe that a shity site like this one news-4-u.ru, whose content on 80 % consists of Google ads, can provide some kind of truthful information?  Lulz...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 30, 2015, 05:21:27 pm
Quote from: _RXN_ on August 30, 2015, 03:11:31 pm
Are you sure he disappeared to reappear again? Are you so naive to really believe that a shity site like this one news-4-u.ru, whose content on 80 % consists of Google ads, can provide some kind of truthful information?  Lulz...

(click to show/hide)

Because we can totally trust the professional-looking RT.com, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on August 30, 2015, 05:24:44 pm
I don't give a single f.ck about rt, but the site that you cited is an epic piece of crap created just a month ago.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 30, 2015, 05:31:01 pm
And RT is an epic piece of crap created just some years ago.

Your point?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on August 30, 2015, 05:32:19 pm
Read my post above.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 30, 2015, 05:38:42 pm
Read my post above.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on August 30, 2015, 05:53:36 pm
Good boy!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on August 30, 2015, 06:21:05 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 23, 2015, 08:54:27 pm
Ukraine Kharkov (city X)

a group Patriots ran like dogs for a man in T-shirt with the emblem of the Soviet Union, after he refused to take off it after the request of a bearded man in the end of the video  :P

He does look kinda tough. Im assuming he was hoping for a fair fist fight.  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 31, 2015, 10:47:43 am
Quote from: Tibe on August 30, 2015, 06:21:05 pm
He does look kinda tough. Im assuming he was hoping for a fair fist fight.  :D
peace activists have used pepper spray  :o That's why he runs like a mongrel dog)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 31, 2015, 08:38:27 pm
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/2364851.html

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on August 31, 2015, 09:22:48 pm
Kremlin's hand!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on September 02, 2015, 06:45:02 am
Quote from: _RXN_ on August 31, 2015, 09:22:48 pm
Kremlin's hand!

More like Kiev's hand, trying to pull a massive cock out of its arse, that was placed there for a very long time by Kremlin. So no...Kremlin's cock. Or is Kremlin female?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Panos_ on September 24, 2015, 09:45:50 am
This is why I fucking love Putin!

https://www.facebook.com/TInEkanaNoris/videos/949925198387760/


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Teeth on September 24, 2015, 03:13:17 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on September 24, 2015, 09:45:50 am
This is why I fucking love Putin!

https://www.facebook.com/TInEkanaNoris/videos/949925198387760/
Disappointed father Putin is fed up with yo shit, so weird.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tagora on October 10, 2015, 11:54:51 am

/thread
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on October 10, 2015, 02:39:36 pm
Quote from: Panos_the_Bear on September 24, 2015, 09:45:50 am
This is why I fucking love Putin!

https://www.facebook.com/TInEkanaNoris/videos/949925198387760/

Belittling your associates, isn't that something Comrade Stalin used to do?

Good guy Putin, killing thousands of civilians in Syria these days. Oh I forgot, he's fighting terrorism. Guess there's isn't that much difference between USA and Russia as we thought at first?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 10, 2015, 04:05:05 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 10, 2015, 02:39:36 pm
Belittling your associates, isn't that something Comrade Stalin used to do?

Good guy Putin, killing thousands of civilians in Syria these days. Oh I forgot, he's fighting terrorism. Guess there's isn't that much difference between USA and Russia as we thought at first?
Ministry of Defence post a video every day, on them can be clearly seen how after the explosion detonated stylish air-conditioned in thr residential areas, as a detonating factories for the production vehicles on environmentally friendly fuel - tratille and as in the forest blown forestry and logging camps  :(
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 11, 2015, 05:53:31 am
Putin try to put soldiers in Finland i wait i am very great soldier i can move dark forest and no one cant see me, when my eyes see u soldiers, i hunting u soldiers than maniac and i take them down one by one. Putin i think u are forget to take u medications u need seek help!!! I hate Russian country whole my heart so i am so ready make all my best i can revenge that day Russian steal Finland land lot. I want send Putin dress he need swear that. Damm losers whole Russian country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 11, 2015, 10:40:08 am
you know that warfare has changed for a long time? like this will end your first day in the woods / mountains

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on October 11, 2015, 11:50:36 am
Yeah, but you got no apache. Russian night sight is based on setting stuff on fire. Well, most of your own vehicles have that as a build in feature.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 11, 2015, 12:51:49 pm
Quote from: Vovka on October 11, 2015, 10:40:08 am
you know that warfare has changed for a long time? like this will end your first day in the woods / mountains

You realize how that works right? It can't see through trees or even thick foliage.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 11, 2015, 02:47:10 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 11, 2015, 12:51:49 pm
You realize how that works right? It can't see through trees or even thick foliage.
  by the time when the Russian attack on Finland you cut down all the trees for the shit from IKEA )
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Lars on October 11, 2015, 05:17:25 pm
I don't know if it was already posted

:lol:
   

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 11, 2015, 06:32:55 pm
Quote from: Leshma on October 10, 2015, 02:39:36 pm
Guess there's isn't that much difference between USA and Russia as we thought at first?

Who was dumb enough to say that there ever was? Russias like the poorer, less successful version of the US. If they had the capabilities and influence the US has, they would have done the same mistakes murica has, probably even more.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 11, 2015, 08:16:34 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 11, 2015, 06:32:55 pm
Who was dumb enough to say that there ever was? Russias like the poorer, less successful version of the US. If they had the capabilities and influence the US has, they would have done the same mistakes murica has, probably even more.

Finland attacked the USSR first in 1939?

  The USSR's morbid fantasy of fighting a war with the US led to their economic collapse, which resulted in billions of dollars of weaponry flooding into the 3rd world and destabilizing it like it never was before. Name one war after 1920 where the US was not acting as a reactionary force, that is the difference.

  The most controversial conflicts were Iraq and Vietnam, as controversial as they were they were still reactionary. Saddam was living on borrowed time after breaking several international treaties and a failed assassination attempt on a US president, and refusing an ultimatum. The Vietnam war started as a civil war which was initiated by communists first against the French territorial government then against the Vietnamese Republic, again a reaction.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 11, 2015, 09:23:27 pm
No. But, as our friend Ivan here said, the Russians are taught in school that they went to "save Finland" and the finnish misunderstood. You think the ruskies ever consider their own wars to be anything else than reactionary? They think that they have the moral high ground, just like you do. All im saying is that we dont know the real agenda behind US.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 11, 2015, 09:39:23 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 11, 2015, 09:23:27 pm
No. But, as our friend Ivan here said, the Russians are taught in school that they went to "save Finland" and the finnish misunderstood. You think the ruskies ever consider their own wars to be anything else than reactionary? They think that they have the moral high ground, just like you do. All im saying is that we dont know the real agenda behind US.

Russia fears a democratic and free market spread in the 3rd world and Ukraine. Russia's economy is only as powerful as Canada, which is awful for having such a large population and territory. With the spread of democracy and the free market comes competition, Russia is afraid they will be dragged down even further which is why they support dictators who will isolate nations to be dependent on them.

You're right about Russians reacting to their own interests though. The same reasons they don't want democracy or Free Markets in the Middle-East or Africa to succeed are the same reasons they wanted Eastern Europe's economy to be weak and dependent, which is why they occupied them for 50 years and robbed them blind. More competitive economic powerhouses like India or China are not in their interest. Sure the US benefits from it's own ambitions economically, but that is the principle of a free world market economy, everyone benefits, however Russia views the additional competition this would bring as an economic threat to their nation.

Without a fear or threatening perception of the West, Russian leaders won't be able to convince their people that there is a reason to be economically isolated, which is why they continue this rivalry. Putin knows that a war with the US would be impossible militarily, he also knows that the US has no interest in fighting Russia, which is why he continues his saber rattling for popularity.

  Sure there are plenty of reasons for Russians to love Putin, he has fought against the corrupt politicians and businessmen that plagued Russia for years which others before him were afraid to do. But it's important not to forget that his saber rattling against the West is purely fabricated drama for popularity. It is a cowardly and greedy way to gain popularity in the face of real world problems which Russia could be aiding the rest of the world in solving instead of acting solely on their own personal ambitions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 11, 2015, 11:10:04 pm
Quote from: Grytviken on October 11, 2015, 09:39:23 pm
(click to show/hide)
you should ask Obama to hire you as an adviser on Russian affairs, your country needs you  :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on October 11, 2015, 11:18:43 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 11, 2015, 06:32:55 pm
Who was dumb enough to say that there ever was? Russias like the poorer, less successful version of the US. If they had the capabilities and influence the US has, they would have done the same mistakes murica has, probably even more.

As would or as did whatever country you are a citizen of.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on October 11, 2015, 11:23:22 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 11, 2015, 06:32:55 pm
Who was dumb enough to say that there ever was? Russias like the poorer, less successful version of the US. If they had the capabilities and influence the US has, they would have done the same mistakes murica has, probably even more.

Eh, not so much.  Popular opinion in US can and has eventually forced policy change on the government.  Short of revolution I don't think it has anywhere near the impact in Russia, even it it was allowed to be expressed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 11, 2015, 11:25:21 pm
Quote from: Vovka on October 11, 2015, 11:10:04 pm
you should ask Obama to hire you as an adviser on Russian affairs, your country needs you  :o

There's a reason all the McDonalds in Crimea were replaced with Burger Kings. It's hilarious to watch Russians replace an American burger joint franchise with a different American burger franchise that has a larger amount of  Russian investor shareholders.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 02:25:41 am
Quote from: Grytviken on October 11, 2015, 11:25:21 pm
There's a reason all the McDonalds in Crimea were replaced with Burger Kings. It's hilarious to watch Russians replace an American burger joint franchise with a different American burger franchise that has a larger amount of  Russian investor shareholders.  :lol:
oh yes it is a conspiracy,
or perhaps McDuck closed because of the fact that under the terms of the franchise they have no right to change the provider of products and in the current situation delivery from Ukraine is not possible
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on October 12, 2015, 02:43:23 am
Quote from: Grytviken on October 11, 2015, 11:25:21 pm
There's a reason all the McDonalds in Crimea were replaced with Burger Kings. It's hilarious to watch Russians replace an American burger joint franchise with a different American burger franchise that has a larger amount of  Russian investor shareholders.  :lol:

Burger King got way tastier burgers and fries tho
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 12, 2015, 03:05:50 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on October 12, 2015, 02:43:23 am
Burger King got way tastier burgers and fries tho

I was wrong they replaced it with a Rusburger  visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 12, 2015, 07:51:36 am
Haha Rusburger. You have got to admit Vovka. Thats pretty fucked up. :lol:

Kremlin massively harrassing foreign businesses to try and keep money inside their own country has been a pretty common and actually kinda tragically funny thing way before Ukraine even. Kicking out evil american capitalist diseasefilled fast-food was only a small part.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 08:53:21 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 12, 2015, 07:51:36 am
Haha Rusburger. You have got to admit Vovka. Thats pretty fucked up. :lol:

Kremlin massively harrassing foreign businesses to try and keep money inside their own country has been a pretty common and actually kinda tragically funny thing way before Ukraine even. Kicking out evil american capitalist diseasefilled fast-food was only a small part.
Yeah it's pretty silly, our goverment act like a morons... i hope some day we will import all shit from usa and europe and will paying back with our natural resources and provide a waste disposal site on our territory like as do the modern democratic countries in Africa
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 12, 2015, 09:27:18 am
Actually you are basically acting more like a poor African nation. Those silly foreign business harassments you are doing are similar to how africans are doing it. Something on the long lines of "we will rid ourselves of imperialists". And what they end up with is scaring off all investors and tanking their economy entirely. There are ways to properly keep money inside your country. The way Russia is doing it currently is idiotic and appears desperate. Basically only poor countries with a totalitarian power do it. The whole world is basically laughing at you.

I dont seriuslly understand how you dont find your government kicking out american burger and replacing it with rus burger funny and retarded. Thats like the level of ultimate desperation. It means you suck so badly at selling your goods that your buisnesses have to lick the governments boots to kick out the competition to get any profit at all. Its nobody elses but your fault that ruskies are shit salesmen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 09:50:55 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 12, 2015, 09:27:18 am
(click to show/hide)
oh Estonian teach how to keep money in the country and how not to ruin the industry,  :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on October 12, 2015, 09:53:01 am
Estonia is doing just fine.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 10:03:52 am
Estonia is doing great, compared to Russia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 10:06:46 am
I hope it is, the more enjoyable is to annex this territory later  :o
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 10:18:55 am
Must be nice being delusional.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 10:30:45 am
Only if you love to live in the expectation that the neighboring country is about to attack on you is to grab your lovely backyard
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 12, 2015, 10:52:00 am
Quote from: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 09:50:55 am
oh Estonian teach how to keep money in the country and how not to ruin the industry,  :o

Yeah, cause it has worked so well for us. We produce that which the clients require and expand in many industries. Not plough only potatoes and later cry to the government how the US potato or the Polish potato is stealing markets. Some money goes and some money comes back in.

Quote from: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 10:06:46 am
I hope it is, the more enjoyable is to annex this territory later  :o

Why? You will just make it poor again, like the rest of your country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 12, 2015, 11:13:19 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 12, 2015, 10:52:00 am
Why? You will just make it poor again, like the rest of your country.
cos it  the right thing to do as this serve to restore a "historical justice"  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 12, 2015, 12:14:56 pm
Russia should just annex or enslave or simply nuke all of Southern Europe, no one would complain there at least. NATO and Russia could carpet bomb third world shitholes like Greece and Serbia together in order to restore international trust and cooperation between civilized nations. Its probably the only thing that could save the European Union from imminent economic collapse at this point too.

I would also like to remind Finland and the Baltic states of their insignificance to world history and complete lack of culture or prestige.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 12, 2015, 12:36:03 pm
Fatpoor, yuo do dis?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 12, 2015, 12:47:06 pm
Don't worry, all you have to do is mention his youtube video and he's forever gone from the thread. It's like an exorcism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 12, 2015, 01:37:22 pm
Quote from: Grytviken on October 11, 2015, 08:16:34 pm
Finland attacked the USSR first in 1939?

  The USSR's morbid fantasy of fighting a war with the US led to their economic collapse, which resulted in billions of dollars of weaponry flooding into the 3rd world and destabilizing it like it never was before. Name one war after 1920 where the US was not acting as a reactionary force, that is the difference.

  The most controversial conflicts were Iraq and Vietnam, as controversial as they were they were still reactionary. Saddam was living on borrowed time after breaking several international treaties and a failed assassination attempt on a US president, and refusing an ultimatum. The Vietnam war started as a civil war which was initiated by communists first against the French territorial government then against the Vietnamese Republic, again a reaction.
Wow now, liberating people and country from an imperialist (senso-stricto) foreign country is declaring war against US??? Maybe you should start attacking Algeria, Congo, Mali, etc and give them back to their original owners?

Anyway the liberation war against french occupation (or if you prefer "civil war") stopped after an agreement which stipulated the country should reunited after national elections. However, the governement of the south (christian dictatorship oppressiv against the bouddhist minority) backed by US didn't respect the agreement and didn't held those election which led to the Vietnamese war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_%281954%29#On_Indochina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_%281954%29#On_Indochina)
US then faked an attack on its own ship, to have a justification to interviene more strongly in this civil war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident#Distortion_of_the_event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident#Distortion_of_the_event)

The list of US intervention and influence in foreign affairs without provocation is endless. Even tho there were not always direct wars the work of the US intellegencies has been enxtremly efficient in provocking mass murder (chile, indonesia, etc).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor)

I think you perfectly know the truth but for some reasons refuse to see it, the number of evidence on US misconducts across the world is countless. There is nothing bad to realise and admit the wrong doing of your governement. The people of the united states are not responsible for their governement errors, as your democracy is far from perfect nor is it transparent. Plus, the US population has often protested against the governement actions when they were wrong.

"Those who don't learn (from) history are doomed to repeat it". You'll get fooled by your governement again and again until you realize all the times the governement has played with its citizens.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 12, 2015, 07:08:14 pm
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on October 12, 2015, 01:37:22 pm
(click to show/hide)

Really are you sure there wasn't more to it, like heavy Soviet and Chinese involvement, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dien_Bien_Phu  , a refusal of the Soviet Union that blocked a UN resolution on an internationally observed election that followed with a Viet Cong invasion across the 17 parallel military demarcation line after the Geneva Convention? It was the breakdown of a failure of both sides to negotiate a resolution that would be seen as legitimate. Surely the US was looking for a reason to intervene after the North had invaded the Republic of South Vietnam.

 Also the Korean War, which saw the Chinese send 1.3 million troops to intervene on North Korea's behalf was fresh in our politicians minds , a similar build up in North Vietnam was taking place which saw the North Vietnamese military double in size. 320,000 Chinese served with the North Vietnamese.

 Like I stated before, US intervention has always been driven by reaction, if your perception of "American Imperialism"  and misconduct was true then nothing would have stopped the United States from succeeding in those goals with it's massive arsenal and military size short of a nuclear war with the soviet union.

  It clearly wasn't the  intentions or policy of the US to occupy and invade countries at leisure or the world would look much different today, the policy has always been focused on a very reasonable practice of restraint compared to it's military power. The USSR was viewed as a hostile state which was illegally occupying half of Europe and communism was seen as a tool to increase it's sphere of influence around the globe.

 As controversial as some of these reactions were do you believe the USSR or Russia would practice the same amount of restraint that the USA has in the past or present with no major power to counter-balance their military and expansion? Given the precedents they have set in the past it's highly unlikely. The United States government and Constitution were created with the idea of non-intervention in European affairs in mind, not to keep sociopath communist regimes in check, so obviously extreme measures had to be taken in certain circumstances to counter-balance this peculiar, oppressive and strange shift in world power when European power had dissolved into absence. Communism was the leading ideological killer in the 20th century by far dwarfing even fascism.

The Chinese and N. Vietnamese got severely handled militarily just like they did in Korea. The US's eventual withdrawal was inevitable due to there being no option of a political end to the conflict, not due to losing militarily which can be seen by the lopsided statistics. The mistakes you talk about are hindsight and not relevant to the calculated risks taken at the time or the present.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 12, 2015, 09:31:03 pm
Quote from: Xant on October 12, 2015, 12:47:06 pm
Don't worry, all you have to do is mention his youtube video and he's forever gone from the thread. It's like an exorcism.

Yeah, his head turns 360 degrees and then his girlfriend's lung cancer shows up.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 12, 2015, 09:59:17 pm
The way I see it, America always fights for freedom, and the USSR would always fight for equality.

Of course that means the freedom for American corporations to open up shop and suck out the money for Wall Street and megabillionare CEOs, and equality for Russian arms and energy profits to keep flowing when the free market drives them out due to undercutting the Politburo or nowadays some fat fucker oligarch/Putin's slush fund, but that is just nitpicking at the expense of Ideological Righteousness.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 12, 2015, 11:43:34 pm
Quote from: Grytviken on October 12, 2015, 07:08:14 pm

Really are you sure there wasn't more to it, like heavy Soviet and Chinese involvement, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dien_Bien_Phu  , a refusal of the Soviet Union that blocked a UN resolution on an internationally observed election that followed with a Viet Cong invasion across the 17 parallel military demarcation line after the Geneva Convention? It was the breakdown of a failure of both sides to negotiate a resolution that would be seen as legitimate. Surely the US was looking for a reason to intervene after the North had invaded the Republic of South Vietnam.

 Also the Korean War, which saw the Chinese send 1.3 million troops to intervene on North Korea's behalf was fresh in our politicians minds , a similar build up in North Vietnam was taking place which saw the North Vietnamese military double in size. 320,000 Chinese served with the North Vietnamese.

 Like I stated before, US intervention has always been driven by reaction, if your perception of "American Imperialism"  and misconduct was true then nothing would have stopped the United States from succeeding in those goals with it's massive arsenal and military size short of a nuclear war with the soviet union.

  It clearly wasn't the  intentions or policy of the US to occupy and invade countries at leisure or the world would look much different today, the policy has always been focused on a very reasonable practice of restraint compared to it's military power. The USSR was viewed as a hostile state which was illegally occupying half of Europe and communism was seen as a tool to increase it's sphere of influence around the globe.

 As controversial as some of these reactions were do you believe the USSR or Russia would practice the same amount of restraint that the USA has in the past or present with no major power to counter-balance their military and expansion? Given the precedents they have set in the past it's highly unlikely. The United States government and Constitution were created with the idea of non-intervention in European affairs in mind, not to keep sociopath communist regimes in check, so obviously extreme measures had to be taken in certain circumstances to counter-balance this peculiar, oppressive and strange shift in world power when European power had dissolved into absence. Communism was the leading ideological killer in the 20th century by far dwarfing even fascism.

The Chinese and N. Vietnamese got severely handled militarily just like they did in Korea. The US's eventual withdrawal was inevitable due to there being no option of a political end to the conflict, not due to losing militarily which can be seen by the lopsided statistics. The mistakes you talk about are hindsight and not relevant to the calculated risks taken at the time or the present.
Sometimes, when your fight is not right you can send all the weapons and men you want, if the people are really willing to have self-determination, the only way to win is to kill the entire population. Vietnam, Afghanistan and the fight for Kurdistan are good exemple.

The battle of dien bien phu came before the Geneva convention. And ofc Vietnam had to be supported by foreign forces, how could it win alone its fight for self-determination against the french colonial empire. And China can be proud to have sided on the right side of the history with its support to the decolonisation in Asia and Africa.

After the non-respect of the convention (there were nothing more to be negotiated, the convention had to be respected) by the south Vietnam dictatorship backed by US, which stipulated for democratic election, the only mean to settle Vietnam destiny without shading blood, the north had to cross the 17th parallel to reunite their country. Maybe US could have won the war but at which cost? Already 3.8 million death plus long lasting dramatic damage to the environment (agent orange and mines, still mutilating and causing complication to the population of vietnam and its neighbours) and the conflict was far from over. After the withdraw of US troops, the North quickly won the war, which shows on which side the majority of the vietnamese population was.

How can you call the socialist and/or independentist militant in Latin-America "sociopath communist regimes" when they were killed before arriving in power or right after their democratic elections? And when nowadays, socialist countries in Latin-America are democratic and among the most progressiv countries. I wouldn't call a reaction, hindering the right to self-determination of a population, especially when the population expressed its will to self-determination by democratic meanshttps://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende).

There's a distinction to be made between Communist super-power which contributed to win the 2nd WW, and that have nothing to fear for their independence and third world countries still subjected to colonialism and imperialism, in which the claim for equality was fought along side with the claim for independence. The smaller socialist countries (many succeded in Africa) killed way fewer (on their scale ofc) than the communist regime or military dictatorship and don't start with Cambodia as an example, it had nothing to do with communism (plus it had US/western support).

Quote
The mistakes you talk about are hindsight and not relevant to the calculated risks taken at the time or the present.
That's exactly what I blame US government and intelligences for, supporting any military dictatorship no matter the cost in life as long as its commercial interest where defended.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 12:13:33 am
 And again your stacking 14 millions deaths in wars spreading democracy up against 94 million killed by communist regimes and the spreading of communism. Communism is by far the worst perpetrator and dwarfs any actions done by the US and was the deadliest of all ideologies combined including Nazee fascism. You're also leaving out all the covert actions and rogue armaments Russia and China sent throughout the world to incite revolution and warfare, billions and billions of dollars worth of armaments being tossed around to every 3rd world country in existence with no insight or care just done hoping war and chaos would spread because the Soviet Union was collapsing and they wanted to spite the United States. Wherever there is mass murder and mass killings there are Russian made weapons involved, whether they are dictatorships oppressing their people or terrorists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 13, 2015, 01:11:21 am
As I said, I distinguish between the two big communist regimes (USSR and China) and the socialo-indenpendantist countries (Vietnam, Congo, Burkina-Faso, Cuba, Chile, etc), I am not saying they didn't kill anybody but they didn't kill so many for this agitated period and didn't commit mass murder like the US backed dictatorship have done.

I am not covering the action of furnishing weapons done by China and Russia. As I said, I think they can be proud to have taken part in the overthrow of colonialist empire and the independence of many countries.

Nowadays, they are selling weapons just like any other countries. Russia and China tends more to selling to guerilla while the west is more tending to selling to dictatorship, meh everybody got his business....

I think the weapon business is one of the dirtiest (worst than drugs, maybe equal to human trafficking) and I consider all weapons trafficker and manufacturer as criminals. But I also know that most of the people are selfish pricks, as we had the opportunity here to vote about banning weapons exportations and this iniative got rejected by a big majority so it seems people are ok with selling weapons abroad as long as it makes money, I don't know why China and Russia shouldn't take part in this wealthy business.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 02:27:34 am
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on October 13, 2015, 01:11:21 am
As I said, I distinguish between the two big communist regimes (USSR and China) and the socialo-indenpendantist countries (Vietnam, Congo, Burkina-Faso, Cuba, Chile, etc), I am not saying they didn't kill anybody but they didn't kill so many for this agitated period and didn't commit mass murder like the US backed dictatorship have done.

I am not covering the action of furnishing weapons done by China and Russia. As I said, I think they can be proud to have taken part in the overthrow of colonialist empire and the independence of many countries.

Nowadays, they are selling weapons just like any other countries. Russia and China tends more to selling to guerilla while the west is more tending to selling to dictatorship, meh everybody got his business....

I think the weapon business is one of the dirtiest (worst than drugs, maybe equal to human trafficking) and I consider all weapons trafficker and manufacturer as criminals. But I also know that most of the people are selfish pricks, as we had the opportunity here to vote about banning weapons exportations and this iniative got rejected by a big majority so it seems people are ok with selling weapons abroad as long as it makes money, I don't know why China and Russia shouldn't take part in this wealthy business.

  Really are you sure there weren't 170,000 business owners and farmers murdered in North Vietnam to bring about their communist reforms? You must think all of these "socialo-independent" nations magically instituted communism without making hundreds of thousands of people who disagreed disappear.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 13, 2015, 07:07:43 am
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on October 13, 2015, 01:11:21 am
As I said, I distinguish between the two big communist regimes (USSR and China) and the socialo-indenpendantist countries (Vietnam, Congo, Burkina-Faso, Cuba, Chile, etc), I am not saying they didn't kill anybody but they didn't kill so many for this agitated period and didn't commit mass murder like the US backed dictatorship have done.

I think you are wrong. US backed dictatorships have most certainly killed less. Depends how you define US backed dictatorship however. Do you count South Korea as US backed dictatorship? Cause SK is 50million people saved by the US and a modern country that surpasses all its other neibhours in just about everything. Including humanrights. The big problem with USSR is that USSR technically never lost, so a lot of mass-graves have yet to been recovered and all the proof has been denied and burned.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 07:20:05 am
The definition of "backed" seems broad and can be used negatively about just about any nation. I'm sure you could pin Switzerland, Sweden, Iceland and other usually neutral countries to "backing" dictators and authoritarian regimes if you put a spin on it. When it comes to foreign policy if an enemy state with sociopath tendencies is willing to give nuclear weapons to unstable nations close to your boarders then things can get ugly.

Also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Cuba

Cuba was not one of those "socio- passive" commie countries, they were highly unstable at the time and Russia deployed nuclear weapons there very well knowing that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on October 13, 2015, 07:26:15 am
Well, but how many proofs have been eliminated by the US or US backed governments? I personally think that there is a shitload of stuff on both sides that haven't surfaced yet because the responsible people were actually doing a decent job. Especially on the South Korean side. Did anyone see Silmido, holy shit. Also the world cup matches of their team 2002 are proof enough that they are evil.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 13, 2015, 07:33:02 am
I dont think the US army has ever had the habit of running around other countries villages, commiting a massmurder, torching the village and than throwing bodies in a giant hole. There probably is a high bodycount. But its definately not even close to USSR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 07:47:01 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 13, 2015, 07:33:02 am
I dont think the US army has ever had the habit of running around other countries villages, commiting a massmurder, torching the village and than throwing bodies in a giant hole. There probably is a high bodycount. But its definately not even close to USSR.

 I don't think there is a Military in modern history (one that has gone to war at least) that has not committed some kind of war crime, war is ugly by nature, and especially with a mandatory draft your going to get all kinds of special people. The major problem is when the government of that said military condones or orders those kind of actions.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on October 13, 2015, 07:58:00 am
ok (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 08:04:41 am
Quote from: Paul on October 13, 2015, 07:58:00 am
ok (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)

Yes disgusting, there was a large public outcry against this and a few soldiers there tried to stop it. Was there a large public outcry in Russia for this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 13, 2015, 08:06:43 am
Quote from: Paul on October 13, 2015, 07:58:00 am
ok (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)

Daym. Never heard of that one. Jesus christ thats brutal. Again. Soviet Russia and China did something similar atleast 100 times. Lets not forget that nobody trialed the soviets or chinese. They are all still living with medals on their chests as decorated heroes.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on October 13, 2015, 08:14:51 am
Not having full control of the media is indeed a 'drawback' of the western system and that's why I prefer it by a mile. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on October 13, 2015, 01:02:21 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

Quote
The Program was designed to identify and "neutralize" (via infiltration, capture, terrorism, torture, and assassination) the infrastructure of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (NLF or Viet Cong).[2][3][4][5]

Quote
By 1972, Phoenix operatives had neutralized 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom between 26,000 and 41,000 were killed.

Quote
Allegations of torture

Methods of alleged torture said to have been used at the interrogation centers include:

    Rape, gang rape, rape using eels, snakes, or hard objects, and rape followed by murder; electric shock ('the Bell Telephone Hour') rendered by attaching wires to the genitals or other sensitive parts of the body, like the tongue; the 'water treatment'; the 'airplane' in which the prisoner's arms were tied behind the back, and the rope looped over a hook on the ceiling, suspending the prisoner in midair, after which he or she was beaten; beatings with rubber hoses and whips; the use of police dogs to maul prisoners.[17]

Military intelligence officer K. Milton Osborne purports to have witnessed the following use of torture:

    The use of the insertion of the 6-inch dowel into the canal of one of my detainee's ears, and the tapping through the brain until dead. The starvation to death (in a cage), of a Vietnamese woman who was suspected of being part of the local political education cadre in one of the local villages ... The use of electronic gear such as sealed telephones attached to ... both the women's vaginas and men's testicles [to] shock them into submission.[18]

The alleged torture was supposedly carried out by South Vietnamese forces with the CIA and special forces playing a supervisory role.[19]

Quote
Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, an intelligence-liaison officer for the Phoenix Program for two months in 1968 and a recipient of the Distinguished Service Cross said the following:[24][25]

    The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid they would not say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant, put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.' Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say, 'April Fool, motherfucker.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to camp with ears to prove that they killed people.


I've read some of the eye witness descriptions of the CIA operatives involved, it's some of the heavier stuff I've read in my life, up there with torture perpetrated by Saddam's old regime.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 01:08:40 pm
The hate must flow  :o

Quote from: Angantyr on October 13, 2015, 01:02:21 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program
I've read some of the eye witness descriptions of the CIA operatives involved, it's some of the heavier stuff I've read in my life, up there with torture perpetrated by Saddam's old regime.
try to check "Unit 731"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on October 13, 2015, 01:13:24 pm
Yes, Japanese bio-chemical human experimentation is one of the worse crimes against humanity on record. And all the criminals went free.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 01:16:33 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on October 13, 2015, 01:13:24 pm
Yes, Japanese bio-chemical human experimentation is one of the worse crimes against humanity on record. And all the criminals went free.
to usa  :o

to be honest, many of these experiments have helped modern medicine, but still sucks to be one among these logs  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 13, 2015, 04:06:13 pm
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 08:17:48 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on October 13, 2015, 01:02:21 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program


I've read some of the eye witness descriptions of the CIA operatives involved, it's some of the heavier stuff I've read in my life, up there with torture perpetrated by Saddam's old regime.

  Yes it was a dirty war on both sides, the Viet-Cong would also light civilians on fire with flamethrowers, villages and towns were mined and booby-trapped where US soldiers would be blown to pieces approaching them, but the thousands of civilians who farmed around the area and traveled back and forth to local villages went about their normal business unscathed knowing where all the mines were and never spoke up.
 
  Those wiki sources aren't exactly an objective analysis and many seem sketchy. Reading further it seems that these were joint operations between the CIA, the SVR and MAC-V to eliminate the organizational structure of the VC in these certain province so US troops would not have to occupy them. Though I don't doubt that alot of "special interrogation methods" and unnecessary killings took place in the process of trying to find these people. They were using a loophole in the system where they could advise the SVR to use unconventional methods to get information out of these prospective targets where US forces couldn't because of the Geneva convention, pretty shady but believable stuff, and a typical eye for an eye scenario gone vastly overboard.


Quote from: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 01:16:33 pm
to usa  :o

to be honest, many of these experiments have helped modern medicine, but still sucks to be one among these logs  :?

Unfortunately this is how the US justice system encourages criminals to speak up. Basically if they tell the truth and give up information their sentence is lessened, and for high priority cases of great importance the plea bargains are often more generous for the sake of finding out all the facts and they might even walk away free as part of the deal if they give up all the information they are looking for.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 13, 2015, 08:21:53 pm
So, results from the Dutch investigation indicate it's an AA missile that exploded near the plane and destroyed the cabin. Russia suddenly changed its version.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 08:22:38 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 13, 2015, 08:21:53 pm
So, results from the Dutch investigation indicate it's an AA missile that exploded near the plane and destroyed the cabin. Russia suddenly changed its version.

Didn't they already claim responsibility on twitter and then quickly pull it down after they found out it was a passenger airline?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on October 13, 2015, 09:06:09 pm
Quote from: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 08:17:48 pm
Unfortunately this is how the US justice system encourages criminals to speak up. Basically if they tell the truth and give up information their sentence is lessened, and for high priority cases of great importance the plea bargains are often more generous for the sake of finding out all the facts and they might even walk away free as part of the deal if they give up all the information they are looking for.

Wut? They let the Unit 731 people go in exchange for being the sole receiver of their research material. The Sowjets had an (ideologically salvageable)interest  in revealing the crimes because there were lots of Russian victims but it was falsely denied as lies and propaganda by the West. Keeping all the goodies for oneself and denying to others that they ever existed is hardly comparable with key witness deals. In fact it's the polar opposite because they tried to hide the truth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 09:10:28 pm
Quote from: Paul on October 13, 2015, 09:06:09 pm
Wut? They let the Unit 731 people go in exchange for being the sole receiver of their research material. The Sowjets had an (ideologically salvageable)interest  in revealing the crimes because there were lots of Russian victims but it was falsely denied as lies and propaganda by the West. Keeping all the goodies for oneself and denying to others that they ever existed is hardly comparable with key witness deals. In fact it's the polar opposite because they tried to hide the truth.

Because letting the Soviets get classified information about biological warfare was in our interests at the time...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on October 13, 2015, 09:13:50 pm
Yes, that was the usual argumentation. That Viet village was full of communists too and the children were already  tainted by Marxism beyond repair. Better to burn it all down. All those actions by the US had a justification that might be good to you, at that time normally anti-communists stuff. They were still crimes for me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 13, 2015, 09:30:49 pm
Quote from: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 08:22:38 pm
Didn't they already claim responsibility on twitter and then quickly pull it down after they found out it was a passenger airline?

Yeah. Wasnt that a very strong lead. The separatists were all gloating in social networks how they shot a Ukrainian army plane down blabla. When the Ukrainians didnt know wtf they were talking about and it turned out a passenger plane was downed nearby, they instantly took everything down.

Its also amazing what massive fucking liars pro-russian politically active old ladies are. "They saw a ukrainian plane chase the passenger plane in the sky." Commmooon...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 09:38:50 pm
Quote from: Paul on October 13, 2015, 09:13:50 pm
Yes, that was the usual argumentation. That Viet village was full of communists too and the children were already  tainted by Marxism beyond repair. Better to burn it all down. All those actions by the US had a justification that might be good to you, at that time normally anti-communists stuff. They were still crimes for me.

 Yes Paul of course they were war crimes, just because they were American doesn't exempt them, even though it was not in the interest of the US and it was purposely hidden it still got out. And you're right the mistrust and deterioration between the villagers and the US soldiers was no excuse for those actions, but when people see their friends killed they sometimes try to take matters into their own hands, it's sick I know, this was the first major modern war of this nature that was taking place in a very inhospitable area, with many psychological  horrors involved.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 13, 2015, 09:43:03 pm
People please, this is the "russian crimes thread". Do NOT ruin this for me. This is the only place I get to be relevant and hatespeech. :lol: Common...Giev the ex-Soviet country guy some love.

If you wish to write a complaint about usa I suggest you visit our forums lovely threads about schoolshootings or guns.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on October 13, 2015, 09:50:10 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 09:54:35 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 13, 2015, 09:43:03 pm
People please, this is the "russian crimes thread". Do NOT ruin this for me. This is the only place I get to be relevant and hatespeech. :lol: Common...Giev the ex-Soviet country guy some love.

If you wish to write a complaint about usa I suggest you visit our forums lovely threads about schoolshootings or guns.

But it's all a CIA conspiracy to steal their potatos, I swear I saw it on RTV.



haha
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 11:21:32 pm
omg why dat man is still alive did we spend all polonium already or what?

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 11:31:29 pm

So drunk
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 11:41:44 pm
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go fucking away, this is my prey
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 11:43:36 pm
Quote from: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 11:21:32 pm
omg why dat man is still alive did we spend all polonium already or what?


 Anti-Air missiles don't blow up planes, see? *pulls out carbon reinforced flak-underplated cockpit demonstration* Also fuck physics and velocity, damn cia propaganda
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 11:45:16 pm

Quote from: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 11:43:36 pm
Anti-Air missiles don't blow up planes, see? *pulls out carbon reinforced flak-underplated cockpit demonstration* Also fuck physics and velocity, damn cia propaganda
they studied the path of penetration of fragments rather than the degree of destruction of the fuselage
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 11:53:31 pm
Quote from: Vovka on October 13, 2015, 11:45:16 pm
they studied the path of penetration of fragments rather than the degree of destruction of the fuselage

  So Mach 3 is irrelevant?  Lmao  . Smashing into a slow moving passenger jet at 2300 miles per hour is not in the equation anywhere? Flocks of birds have taken down passenger airlines before, probably the most retarded study i've ever seen.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 14, 2015, 12:01:16 am
Quote from: Grytviken on October 13, 2015, 11:53:31 pm
  So Mach 3 is irrelevant?  Lmao  . Smashing into a slow moving passenger jet at 2300 miles per hour is not in the equation anywhere? Flocks of birds have taken down passenger airlines before, probably the most retarded study i've ever seen.
I hope you have not divided speed of boing with 800 km/h at sound speed in 300 m/s   :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 14, 2015, 12:06:40 am
The BuK 9M317 surface to air missile shown in the video travels at 2300 mph. Crazy bastards should have known better than to fly over that part of Ukraine though, even though the transponder on the plane would have shown up as a passenger airliner on the BuK's radar... but I don't think there are any professional qualifications required to be a Putling separatist anti-aircraft operator.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 14, 2015, 12:12:56 am
Also these territories in the Ukraine that want to be part of Russia, are these mostly historical core Russian lands that were unfairly lost during the breakup of the USSR? Or are they areas that were historically Ukrainian that now have a Russian population majority? I want to hear a Russian opinion on this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 14, 2015, 12:14:31 am
Quote from: Grytviken on October 14, 2015, 12:06:40 am
The BuK 9M317 surface to air missile shown in the video travels at 2300 mph. Crazy bastards should have known better than to fly over that part of Ukraine though, even though the transponder on the plane would have shown up as a passenger airliner on the BuK's radar...
I just clarified, knowing the especially of home schooling in the United States  :)
missle explodes in 1-3 meters away from the target (so its not intended smash into plane) and after detonation fragments fly at a speed of 2 km / s (can not say exactly read for a long time ago)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 14, 2015, 12:17:38 am
Quote from: Vovka on October 14, 2015, 12:14:31 am
I just clarified, knowing the especially of home schooling in the United States  :)
missle explodes in 1-3 meters away from the target (so its not intended smash into plane) and after detonation fragments fly at a speed of 2 km / s (can not say exactly read for a long time ago)

Exactly and the spread of the 1600 lb's of shrapnel is then accelerated even faster than 2300mph, it is meant to damage multiple areas of the plane this way, which would easily take out a passenger airlines engines.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on October 14, 2015, 12:24:39 am
At one to 3 meters the pressure wave of the explosion alone must be a considerable force against the hull of the airplane.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 14, 2015, 12:29:11 am
Quote from: Grytviken on October 14, 2015, 12:17:38 am
Exactly and the spread of the 1600 lb's of shrapnel is then accelerated even faster than 2300mph, it is meant to damage multiple areas of the plane this way, which would easily take out a passenger airlines engines.
I did not write doctoral theses in physics, but I can assume that after explosion energy missile extinguished and the final speed of the fragments is not the sum of the speed of the projectile + Speed obtained by detonation )
maybe someone will tell for sure. As for those who are to blame, I think that first of all  the one who does not close  fly zone for fear of losing profits.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on October 14, 2015, 12:53:30 am
Quote from: Vovka on October 14, 2015, 12:29:11 am
I did not write doctoral theses in physics, but I can assume that after explosion energy missile extinguished and the final speed of the fragments is not the sum of the speed of the projectile + Speed obtained by detonation )
maybe someone will tell for sure. As for those who are to blame, I think that first of all  the one who does not close  fly zone for fear of losing profits.

It's ridiculous to say that a country can be invaded and that that country is the first one at fault when a civilian airliner is shot down by the invaders.  Nice attempt to deflect the blame.  The primary culprits are the suppliers of the missile system and the ones who launched the missile, the Russians and whatever "volunteers" and separatists used the launcher.  The Dutch also blame Ukraine for not closing the airspace.  However there were dozens or hundreds of flights through that area during the time period this happened.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 14, 2015, 12:59:51 am
Quote from: Vovka on October 14, 2015, 12:29:11 am
I did not write doctoral theses in physics, but I can assume that after explosion energy missile extinguished and the final speed of the fragments is not the sum of the speed of the projectile + Speed obtained by detonation )
maybe someone will tell for sure. As for those who are to blame, I think that first of all  the one who does not close  fly zone for fear of losing profits.

   The radar the missile system used to lock on to the passenger Airliner would have received a response and location from the Airliners transponder automatically. It's also possible the pilot set his transponder to standby while crossing into Ukrainian airspace before changing codes, this would show up on radar as an unknown and poof, just a crazy theory though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on October 14, 2015, 01:08:32 am
The ones that launched it did not use or did not have long range radar to acquire and interrogate the civilian plane and detect it's transponder.  They probably used  the launcher's fire control radar which is shorter range and just detects a target.  They turned that radar on for short periods, acquired a target and launched with out evaluating it.  They probably never considered the possibility of bringing down an airliner.  They were certainly surprised sounding on the social media transcripts when they discovered their mistake after bragging about bringing down another Ukrainian military plane.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 14, 2015, 01:38:41 am
Quote from: Turkhammer on October 14, 2015, 01:08:32 am
The ones that launched it did not use or did not have long range radar to acquire and interrogate the civilian plane and detect it's transponder.  They probably used  the launcher's fire control radar which is shorter range and just detects a target.  They turned that radar on for short periods, acquired a target and launched with out evaluating it.  They probably never considered the possibility of bringing down an airliner.  They were certainly surprised sounding on the social media transcripts when they discovered their mistake after bragging about bringing down another Ukrainian military plane.

 Even very old systems from the 60's were equipped with an identify friend or foe system capable of picking up transponders.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on October 14, 2015, 01:22:51 pm
If Russia had nothing to hide why veto a UN investigation?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 14, 2015, 07:10:10 pm
Quote from: Casimir on October 14, 2015, 01:22:51 pm
If Russia had nothing to hide why veto a UN investigation?

Because Russia has nothing to hide, all people with logic know this. Thereby it does not need any puny evidence gathered by the american puppets, trying to hide the crimes of their fascist Kiev allies. And what rights you have to speak of russian veto and proofs, you English bulldog. Do you forget English colonial age crimes?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on October 15, 2015, 12:58:27 am
Pfft, Welsh mate; all we do is dig coal, eat leeks and fuck sheep.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on October 15, 2015, 01:21:02 am
Quote from: Casimir on October 15, 2015, 12:58:27 am
Pfft, Welsh mate; all we do is dig coal, eat leeks and fuck sheep.

Thought u guys were the greatest archers on earth
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on October 15, 2015, 01:27:06 am
What is there to even 'debate' about the BUK missile?

It's an airburst missile, duh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 15, 2015, 10:22:03 am
Quote from: Casimir on October 15, 2015, 12:58:27 am
Pfft, Welsh mate; all we do is dig coal, eat leeks and fuck sheep.

I read somewhere that if you got caught stealing sheep they took your own arm off, but if you got caught fucking one they took a finger. So thats why whoever got caught with someone elses sheep said he was going to fuck it. Is that really the whole myth to sheepshaggers? :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 15, 2015, 10:32:46 am
Quote from: Tibe on October 15, 2015, 10:22:03 am
I read somewhere that if you got caught stealing sheep they took your own arm off, but if you got caught fucking one they took a finger. So thats why whoever got caught with someone elses sheep said he was going to fuck it. Is that really the whole myth to sheepshaggers? :lol:
They dont steal it, they take it for a dating  :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 15, 2015, 01:37:32 pm
The Welsh are not known to foreplay. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2015, 08:38:04 am
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 16, 2015, 08:46:17 am
Quote from: Xant on October 16, 2015, 08:38:04 am
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nice emblem on top left XD
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on October 16, 2015, 02:37:26 pm
https://twitter.com/6parmak0kan/status/654980622058967040

@6parmak0kan @diehimbeertonis "the plane was warned 3 times". They is some tiny tiny pilots.  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on October 16, 2015, 04:13:22 pm
old news, this on is more up-to-date:

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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2015, 05:05:58 pm
ayy lmao
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 18, 2015, 06:57:38 am
(click to show/hide)
Dang where did Isis get such a sweet sword... that thing is +3 for sure! You can tell just by looking at it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 19, 2015, 11:46:22 pm
are people still dying here? is Ukraine ever going to take back Donbass? What the fuck is stopping them? Does Ukraine have any armored vehicles or airplanes? Is Eastern Ukraine literally being defended by hardened Spetznaz commandos that have equipped everyone with next generation Soviet anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons and close-fire artillery support from "rebel held territory" that Putin himself probably visits to snipe some Ukranian officers with MLG 1000 yard headshots between driving a tank around Syria without a shirt on blowing up shit?

I understood last year when ppl seemed to give a shit that Ukraine was pushed back by a Soviet Armored column nonchantly crossing into Ukraine when they were gonna encircle some key city and capture an airport, but I imagine Russia only has like 5 tanks that actually work and they are all in Syria

Is this civil war just a bunch of redneck patriots and rebels getting drunk and sitting in water towers with hunting rifles shooting each others cows and goats and shit for petty personal grudges? lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on October 19, 2015, 11:49:12 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 19, 2015, 11:46:22 pm
are people still dying here? is Ukraine ever going to take back Donbass? What the fuck is stopping them? Does Ukraine have any armored vehicles or airplanes? Is Eastern Ukraine literally being defended by hardened Spetznaz commandos that have equipped everyone with next generation Soviet anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons and close-fire artillery support from "rebel held territory" that Putin himself probably visits to snipe some Ukranian officers with MLG 1000 yard headshots between driving a tank around Syria without a shirt on blowing up shit?

I understood last year when ppl seemed to give a shit that Ukraine was pushed back by a Soviet Armored column nonchantly crossing into Ukraine when they were gonna encircle some key city and capture an airport, but I imagine Russia only has like 5 tanks that actually work and they are all in Syria

Is this civil war just a bunch of redneck patriots and rebels getting drunk and sitting in water towers with hunting rifles shooting each others cows and goats and shit for petty personal grudges? lol

It's racist USA backed NATO facsist puppet neo-nazzii terrorist Ukranians vs Russian potato peasants
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on October 20, 2015, 12:17:39 am
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 20, 2015, 05:23:35 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 19, 2015, 11:46:22 pm
are people still dying here? is Ukraine ever going to take back Donbass? What the fuck is stopping them? Does Ukraine have any armored vehicles or airplanes? Is Eastern Ukraine literally being defended by hardened Spetznaz commandos that have equipped everyone with next generation Soviet anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons and close-fire artillery support from "rebel held territory" that Putin himself probably visits to snipe some Ukranian officers with MLG 1000 yard headshots between driving a tank around Syria without a shirt on blowing up shit?

I understood last year when ppl seemed to give a shit that Ukraine was pushed back by a Soviet Armored column nonchantly crossing into Ukraine when they were gonna encircle some key city and capture an airport, but I imagine Russia only has like 5 tanks that actually work and they are all in Syria

Is this civil war just a bunch of redneck patriots and rebels getting drunk and sitting in water towers with hunting rifles shooting each others cows and goats and shit for petty personal grudges? lol
This is the same thing I've been wondering. None of it makes much sense. You'd think there'd be some sort of progress, one way or the other, but either no one is very interested or both sides are extremely incompetent. Probably a mix of both.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 21, 2015, 12:29:32 am
They both stopped actually trying to gain ground, that's all there is to it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kalam on October 21, 2015, 12:37:18 am
What was Russia's purpose for entering Ukraine?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Casimir on October 21, 2015, 12:49:18 am
Quote from: Kafein on October 21, 2015, 12:29:32 am
They both stopped actually trying to gain ground, that's all there is to it.

Yeah aren't they both simply conforming to the internationally agreed territorial control while waiting for some progress in the political situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 21, 2015, 08:45:16 am
The Eastern separatists do infact have very good equipment. They have everything from guided missiles to tanks. I think that the rebels are even better armed than the government forces. But they sure as hell are not commandos. Just common militia with the latest very decent gear from the motherland.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on October 21, 2015, 01:07:05 pm
Good equipment and shitty personnel is obviously the combination that gets airliners shot down.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 22, 2015, 05:47:58 am
Quote from: Paul on October 21, 2015, 01:07:05 pm
Good equipment and shitty personnel is obviously the combination that gets airliners shot down.

Yeah but even the Islamic State figured out that if you just have like 100 jeeps with machine guns and charge at an army from multiple directions while blowing shit up behind them (ISIS uses suicide bombers for shock troops) that you can actually take territory from people, its what a fuckign war is. Ukraine is afraid of taking losses in minor engagements or something when people over there jerk off over the Great Patriotic War's strategic ownage of fascists in these hilariously lopsided battles with millions of troops for years all the way to raping Berlin's entire female population to celebrate victory. Maybe Ukraine really is some neo-naz1 hick nation that relates to H1tler's loss more than the Soviet victory lo;l

I remember Putin bragging "WE COULD CAPTURE KIEV in 24 HOURS. FEAR MOTHER RUSSIA AND FATHER PUTIN" at like, the UN lmao so he obviously gets it. Is Ukraine's new government full of pussies? Maybe Kiev needs to throw them out again and put some military commander in charge lmao

American politics seems liek everyone shit talks Obama for refusing to give Ukraine modern AT rifles, so I guess somehow a massive, major ex-soviet state like Ukraine has no army at all, despite being a former nuclear power (until America and Russia pledged to protect them without nukes and both countries betrayed them i guess lol), which is hilarious

If Ukraine refuses to take an initiative, they are obviously going to lose Donbass. I guess the Ukrainian government doesn't care about its people enough to save the citizens over there in a war zone at all by liberating them
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 22, 2015, 06:05:14 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on October 20, 2015, 03:01:24 pm
You paint a colourful and 100% American-sounding picture

Reality in the Ukraine is likely far more harrowing, everyone sits drunk in their damp grey crows-nests made of corrugated iron shooting at the corpse of the resident town goat that was supposed to provide them sweet milk for the entire duration of the harsh winter ahead.

Goats plural are a luxury only us ignorant westerners can afford.

Watching coverage of Kurds in Syria or militias/rebels in Ukraine all sound like peasant bullshit to begin with. They are just people sitting around sniping at each other in low-intensity skirmishes that accomplish nothing except make civilians live in fear of being shelled randomly by some drunk redneck who doesn't know math good enough to aim a mortar. I feel bad for them more than the politics involved because the media is full of propaganda liars no matter what it is. Hopefully President Trump fixes these things. Probably would take 1 game of golf with Putin to work out a deal lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on October 22, 2015, 08:01:48 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 22, 2015, 05:47:58 am

...blablabla...typical shitpost...
If Ukraine refuses to take an initiative, they are obviously going to lose Donbass. I guess the Ukrainian government doesn't care about its people enough to save the citizens over there in a war zone at all by liberating them

Would you care? You do realise "its people" in  Donbass are fanatic russian nationalists that want to be ruled by Kremlin cause Kremlin fed them a lot of bullshit about Ukraine and the poor dumb peasants took up arms. What Russia basically did was use its massive minority(that in most places was not even a minority anymore), claim that they were being abused and claimed that territory. Which is why all Eastern-European countries pissed their pants and went to cry to NATO, cause its pretty obvious if you have a large russian minority in your country, they will be used by Russia to rape you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on October 22, 2015, 10:24:16 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 22, 2015, 05:47:58 am
(until America and Russia pledged to protect them without nukes and both countries betrayed them i guess lol)
Reading comprehension isn't apparently your best skill lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 22, 2015, 11:41:24 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on October 22, 2015, 05:47:58 am
Yeah but even the Islamic State figured out that if you just have like 100 jeeps with machine guns and charge at an army from multiple directions while blowing shit up behind them (ISIS uses suicide bombers for shock troops) that you can actually take territory from people, its what a fuckign war is. Ukraine is afraid of taking losses in minor engagements or something when people over there jerk off over the Great Patriotic War's strategic ownage of fascists in these hilariously lopsided battles with millions of troops for years all the way to raping Berlin's entire female population to celebrate victory. Maybe Ukraine really is some neo-naz1 hick nation that relates to H1tler's loss more than the Soviet victory lo;l

I remember Putin bragging "WE COULD CAPTURE KIEV in 24 HOURS. FEAR MOTHER RUSSIA AND FATHER PUTIN" at like, the UN lmao so he obviously gets it. Is Ukraine's new government full of pussies? Maybe Kiev needs to throw them out again and put some military commander in charge lmao

American politics seems liek everyone shit talks Obama for refusing to give Ukraine modern AT rifles, so I guess somehow a massive, major ex-soviet state like Ukraine has no army at all, despite being a former nuclear power (until America and Russia pledged to protect them without nukes and both countries betrayed them i guess lol), which is hilarious

If Ukraine refuses to take an initiative, they are obviously going to lose Donbass. I guess the Ukrainian government doesn't care about its people enough to save the citizens over there in a war zone at all by liberating them

So what Ukraine should repress half of its population, kill and emprison those who resist, create a huge emigration movement, depopulate half of the country? And then continue its repression for the ten next years on its russian minority in half of its territory.

Or find an agreement with the separatist region for some autonomy, the right to use their language in official documents, etc and find a peacefull solution that civilians on both sides of the borders hope for?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 22, 2015, 01:24:30 pm
Quote from: Tibe on October 22, 2015, 08:01:48 am
Would you care? You do realise "its people" in  Donbass are fanatic russian nationalists that want to be ruled by Kremlin cause Kremlin fed them a lot of bullshit about Ukraine and the poor dumb peasants took up arms. What Russia basically did was use its massive minority(that in most places was not even a minority anymore), claim that they were being abused and claimed that territory. Which is why all Eastern-European countries pissed their pants and went to cry to NATO, cause its pretty obvious if you have a large russian minority in your country, they will be used by Russia to rape you.

The people in Donbass are (or were) Ukrainians who are suffering from war and prob are getting more legitimate supporters of Russia because all Ukraine does is shell their towns and kill their families, which will increasingly radicalize sentiment against the government that claims to be representing them. Ukraine's lack of action in asserting its sovereignty over its territory is proving the entire thesis that this region is not considered Ukranian at all. There seems to be brave Ukrainian nationalists fighting rebels of Donbass in a low intensity war, but those who are not military-aged males with guns are just sad sick cold hungry civilians stuck in a warzone.

You can't generalize all people in Donbass as brainwashed fanatics, they prob just want peace. On what terms could this be achieved, cuz right now its just constantly violated "ceasefires" since the people shooting are not really Ukrainian or Russian military, there is a lack of law and order.

America had half the country, including tons of professional officers and talented generals, rebel and Lincoln had the balls to immediately invade and fight for 4 years of full-blown war to save a nation he believed in. Some fucking Willy Wonka chocolate factory guy or w/e the unlawful Ukranian president is doesn't seem like a Lincoln to me lmao
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on October 22, 2015, 01:29:57 pm
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on October 22, 2015, 11:41:24 am
Or find an agreement with the separatist region for some autonomy, the right to use their language in official documents, etc and find a peacefull solution that civilians on both sides of the borders hope for?

Any agreement would probably be Ukraine surrendering completely to Donbass here, because they seem to have surrendered after losing 1 battle at the Donetsk airport or w/e lol
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Piok on October 22, 2015, 03:30:56 pm
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on October 22, 2015, 11:41:24 am
So what Ukraine should repress half of its population, kill and emprison those who resist, create a huge emigration movement, depopulate half of the country? And then continue its repression for the ten next years on its russian minority in half of its territory.

Or find an agreement with the separatist region for some autonomy, the right to use their language in official documents, etc and find a peacefull solution that civilians on both sides of the borders hope for?
Could be achieved before new Ukrainian democratic and full of sun regime send in army
and all kinds of psychos whose were looking forward to government approved raping and pillaging in eastern provinces.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on October 22, 2015, 09:24:03 pm
Please, have a little respect for my brain cells.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Siiem on October 22, 2015, 09:49:46 pm
Seems pretty accurate.
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on November 01, 2015, 01:52:13 am
Quote from: Siiem on October 22, 2015, 09:49:46 pm
Seems pretty accurate.
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"The West" aka inept Obama administration has been talking about wanting to replace Assad for years now, and I'm pretty sure Putin thought that sounded like a marvelous plan. All the photo-ops between Assad and Putin smiling like True Allies in Moscow are probably RT's FX department doing some Hollywood shit while Assad is being starved in a gulag somewhere. Looks to me like Putin and Iran are carving up the Middle East like some fucking Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, next up this Slavic Satan will do the same to Central Asia with China

THe only analysis I am 100 percent certain on, is that you should not get in a civilian airliner if you are going over Russian airspace lol. He'll make half the world into some Bermuda Triangle where airplanes mysteriously explode, like some kind of never ending CIA Imperialist Fascist chocolate chip cookie Conspiracy at this rate
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on November 01, 2015, 02:06:54 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on November 01, 2015, 01:52:13 am
"The West" aka inept Obama administration has been talking about wanting to replace Assad for years now, and I'm pretty sure Putin thought that sounded like a marvelous plan. All the photo-ops between Assad and Putin smiling like True Allies in Moscow are probably RT's FX department doing some Hollywood shit while Assad is being starved in a gulag somewhere. Looks to me like Putin and Iran are carving up the Middle East like some fucking Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, next up this Slavic Satan will do the same to Central Asia with China

THe only analysis I am 100 percent certain on, is that you should not get in a civilian airliner if you are going over Russian airspace lol. He'll make half the world into some Bermuda Triangle where airplanes mysteriously explode, like some kind of never ending CIA Imperialist Fascist chocolate chip cookie Conspiracy at this rate

Reading this in Derek Smart slash Smoothrich low pitched voice. Really adds some weight to those sentences :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibe on November 01, 2015, 08:49:37 am
It was indeed glorious.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: darmaster on November 01, 2015, 03:47:52 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on November 01, 2015, 10:03:33 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on November 13, 2015, 12:26:41 pm
https://static.ylilauta.org/files/ei/orig/ypxhsf7s/accidental_discharge.mp4

Slavs and warfare, not a good combination
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 13, 2015, 05:21:40 pm
Nowhere to run to...
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on November 13, 2015, 05:35:07 pm
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on November 13, 2015, 05:21:40 pm
Nowhere to run to...
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Lmfao....yours? Or someone on the internetz?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 17, 2015, 12:09:28 pm
No found on the internet, there are so many that really good. Found a beavis and butthead that was gold too!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 18, 2015, 02:26:26 am
Why is Yolotrovsky working for Vice though? Why?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on November 26, 2015, 10:30:08 am
Quote from: Xant on November 13, 2015, 12:26:41 pm
https://static.ylilauta.org/files/ei/orig/ypxhsf7s/accidental_discharge.mp4

Slavs and warfare, not a good combination

lol yeah you got that right. The UIF lost every Strategus Round utterly and completely posting "WHY DO WE STILL PLAY THIS GAME IM SO MISERABLE BAN THEM ALL ITS THE ONLY WAY TO WIN THIS WARGAME" lmao with all the UIF clans + the allied LLJK Goon Horde posting all  demeaned disgraced whiny nonsense with their alliances fractured apart and psychotic breakdowns in the clan leaders every year

slavs and warfare, not a good combination


''The Slavs have defeated us. They have smashed our land, our nation, our ideology...
This signifies them are the Master Race and they will force this world in the knees...'

- cRPG Community and H1tler, always in agreement
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on November 26, 2015, 07:57:42 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on November 26, 2015, 10:30:08 am
''The Slavs have defeated us. They have smashed our land, our nation, our ideology...
This signifies them are the Master Race and they will force this world in the knees...'

- cRPG Community and H1tler, always in agreement
Well, to be fair the Germans did fight all the other major powers more or less alone (with a short interim) since 1914.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on November 28, 2015, 03:40:03 pm
Quote from: Angantyr on November 26, 2015, 07:57:42 pm
Well, to be fair the Germans did fight all the other major powers more or less alone (with a short interim) since 1914.

because they are base-minded war-mongering barbarians. Even the Romans understood the Germanic Way, rape plunder steal and murder while saying "we are a Master Race" while burning down libraries and melting artwork for speartips and arrowheads lol

Germans never change
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on November 28, 2015, 05:42:41 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on November 28, 2015, 03:40:03 pm
because they are base-minded war-mongering barbarians. Even the Romans understood the Germanic Way, rape plunder steal and murder while saying "we are a Master Race" while burning down libraries and melting artwork for speartips and arrowheads lol

Germans never change
MURRICANS much different, ayy
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on November 28, 2015, 06:11:54 pm
lmao
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on November 28, 2015, 06:15:42 pm
Not all Romans. Julius Caesar describes the Germanic peoples with great admiration in his Commentarii de Bello Gallico.

Germans have traditionally had a strong warrior culture, perhaps because being surrounded by other peoples. But Germany have at the same time been one of the foremost contributors to western science, culture, and philosophy since the Enlightenment.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on November 28, 2015, 07:52:30 pm
And still are! That's why I'm here.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Angantyr on November 28, 2015, 08:35:00 pm
Germans count among both the best and the worst in European history.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on November 29, 2015, 03:15:18 am
Germany is a social construct.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on November 29, 2015, 03:04:28 pm
Give freedom to forcibly annexed east Germany!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on November 29, 2015, 03:37:12 pm
Quote from: Leshma on November 29, 2015, 03:04:28 pm
Give freedom to forcibly annexed east Germany!

(click to show/hide)


East Germany's culture need become free of its evil twin brother again!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on November 29, 2015, 05:26:30 pm
My signature - love it...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on November 30, 2015, 02:12:37 pm
2:27

Quote
Poland's new president Andrzej Duda said Thursday his country was reluctant to help with the refugees from the Middle East or Africa because of a potential influx soon from Ukraine.
:P

btw is dat Erdoğan in black corner? the right of Poroshenko
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 23, 2016, 11:44:56 am
Quote from: Leshma on November 29, 2015, 03:04:28 pm
Give freedom to forcibly annexed east Germany!

(click to show/hide)

Ici.

Drank Nach Osten !

Or : how the West see no problem to unify germans with germans (why not an Anschluss with Austria ?), as long as they are capitalist and cheap workers. But when russians of Crimea want to join Russia it the thing becomes illegal.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 23, 2016, 12:56:50 pm
So what's going on in Ukraine these days? Literally everyone's lost interest in the little toy war. Only slavs are capable of fighting a war with hundreds of thousands of soldiers and achieving nothing in years.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 23, 2016, 01:03:09 pm
Man, I miss the time when this thread was active.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: [ptx] on February 23, 2016, 01:24:46 pm
Hahah, what a necro, you can't make this shit up :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on February 23, 2016, 01:35:43 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on February 23, 2016, 01:36:03 pm
Clash of the Caps

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tovi on February 24, 2016, 01:10:21 am
Ukrops shooting themselves when drunk. They starve in the cold and shell bomb Donetsk constantly despite the ceasefire.

Some riot happen at Maïdan for the anniversary of the so call "revolution".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 24, 2016, 01:56:17 am
Quote from: Xant on February 23, 2016, 12:56:50 pm
So what's going on in Ukraine these days? Literally everyone's lost interest in the little toy war. Only slavs are capable of fighting a war with hundreds of thousands of soldiers and achieving nothing in years.

Slavs are participants of this war but I'm not convinced it was their to achieve something with this war. Think someone else got what he wanted out of it and discarded it like a cheap hooker.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on February 24, 2016, 09:06:17 am
Quote from: Vovka on February 23, 2016, 01:35:43 pm
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Is that a Russian history book for schools?

Quote from: Tovi on February 24, 2016, 01:10:21 am
blub blub
I kinda missed you.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: _RXN_ on February 24, 2016, 10:19:53 am
Molly, it's a magazine, it's published in so called LNR.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on February 24, 2016, 01:13:42 pm
Quote from: Tovi on February 24, 2016, 01:10:21 am
blublub

Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2016, 09:06:17 am
I kinda missed you.

gold.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Xant on February 25, 2016, 02:30:35 am
Can it be, has Tovi spouted so much retarded shit that cRPG forums finally refuse to reply to him seriously? What a day to be alive.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Ikarus on February 25, 2016, 12:27:15 pm
Can someone briefly summarize the situation?

I´d like to know more about it too, but don´t want to go through 700+ pages (wow)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on February 25, 2016, 01:24:52 pm
Summary: Year is 2017. Angry Muslim hordes are burning Vienna to the ground. Our reporter Ikarus is observing situation from Stephansdom, hoping for Slavic Alliance to come and save Christianity from Islam.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Ikarus on February 25, 2016, 03:05:04 pm
Quote from: Leshma on February 25, 2016, 01:24:52 pm
Summary: Year is 2017. Angry Muslim hordes are burning Vienna to the ground. Our reporter Ikarus is observing situation from Stephansdom, hoping for Slavic Alliance to come and save Christianity from Islam.
The situation in Ukraine, silly  :D
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 26, 2016, 02:38:09 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on February 25, 2016, 12:27:15 pm
Can someone briefly summarize the situation?

Yes:

Quote from: Tovi on February 24, 2016, 01:10:21 am
blublub

Quote from: Vovka on February 23, 2016, 01:35:43 pm
me trolleh you

Quote from: Molly on February 24, 2016, 09:06:17 am
random cuck

Quote from: Xant on February 25, 2016, 02:30:35 am
the halting problem is undecidable

Quote from: Leshma on February 24, 2016, 01:56:17 am
spiders
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on February 26, 2016, 03:12:59 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on February 25, 2016, 12:27:15 pm
Can someone briefly summarize the situation?

I´d like to know more about it too, but don´t want to go through 700+ pages (wow)


From the last I know, the ceasefire is more or less in effect, "borders" are somewhat stable, and some skirmish happens from time to time but nothing major enough to make headlines. The Minsk II agreement has been re-enacted a couple months ago, and all military operations have been officially stopped.
Crimea is still russian controlled but not recognized by Ukraine and supporters, there is still a pro-russian enclave in eastern Ukraine.

Pro-Europe Ukraine is slowly joining a couple of NATO/EU centered diplomatical/economical/military agreements, while Crimea is being slowly integrated into the Russian Federation, and the DPR/LPR is surviving. I would say the most interesting thing about Ukraine right now is to see whether the DPR/LPR merge, or join Russia, or become (semi)-independant states or re-join Ukraine; or war break out again and then... I tend to think that the DPR/LPR controlled regions will share the fate of the Transnistria.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 26, 2016, 03:14:22 pm
Quote from: Kafein on February 26, 2016, 02:38:09 pm
Yes:

holy shit man that comment  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Kafein on February 26, 2016, 03:15:53 pm
I wish I could add Berenger, Oberyn and Other Tovi though.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on February 26, 2016, 03:19:00 pm
+ the obligatory

Quote from: Kafein
vehicule
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Smoothrich on February 26, 2016, 08:16:57 pm
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Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 22, 2016, 12:12:30 am
Even despite the fact that you forgot about Ukraine, Ukraine remembers you.
Hot offer from the heart of Europe, Save Ukraine and dat hot babe is ur!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 22, 2016, 10:09:12 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 22, 2016, 12:12:30 am
Even despite the fact that you forgot about Ukraine, Ukraine remembers you.
Hot offer from the heart of Europe, Save Ukraine and dat hot babe is ur!
(click to show/hide)

Oh Nadya (sp?), the one the Russians kidnapped, and made the subject of a political show trial.  She does look hot considering what she went through as a political prisoner of Putin's regime.  No wonder Putler and Tardogan are butt buddies now.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 22, 2016, 10:21:44 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 22, 2016, 10:09:12 pm
She does look hot

no
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 23, 2016, 01:33:23 am
Quote from: Butan on July 22, 2016, 10:21:44 pm
no

I said considering.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on July 23, 2016, 03:50:39 am
wouldn't even consider

nope
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 23, 2016, 04:42:35 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 23, 2016, 03:50:39 am
wouldn't even consider

nope

Lol, you goof.  It was her looks considering her treatment as a guest of the Russians.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 23, 2016, 12:57:38 pm
Pretty sure she was born with a horseface. Russia is innocent!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 23, 2016, 06:19:13 pm
Quote from: Butan on July 23, 2016, 12:57:38 pm
Pretty sure she was born with a horseface. Russia is innocent!

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Risibly wrong with both statements.  Guess your "pretty sure" judgements are not to be depended on.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Bittersteel on July 23, 2016, 06:22:12 pm
Wouldn't bang version one either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 23, 2016, 06:32:24 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 23, 2016, 06:19:13 pm
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Risibly wrong with both statements.  Guess your "pretty sure" judgements are not to be depended on.

make up

 :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 23, 2016, 06:51:32 pm
Get your glasses grandpa.  That's not a horse face.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on July 23, 2016, 07:31:51 pm
No, it is not. That is the face of your typical slavic boy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 23, 2016, 09:32:58 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 23, 2016, 06:51:32 pm
Get your glasses grandpa.  That's not a horse face.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gInG9VFhMDo

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on July 24, 2016, 03:51:45 pm
Quote from: Turkhammer on July 23, 2016, 06:51:32 pm
Get your glasses grandpa.  That's not a horse face.

I have a perfect tunnel vision thank you!
I have mostly been joking btw, she looks average for a lesbian.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Turkhammer on July 24, 2016, 10:11:30 pm
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Quote from: Butan on July 23, 2016, 06:32:24 pm
make up

 :P

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Physchological torture, sleep deprivation, stress, hunger strike.
:P




Quote from: Butan on July 24, 2016, 03:51:45 pm
I have a perfect tunnel vision thank you!

:P

LOL.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on July 24, 2016, 11:26:05 pm
With this forum just being crowded by Allahu Akbar threads it's refreshing to bring this thread back.

Also Ukraine belongs to Russia. Go Putin XNXNXNXNXNXN
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on July 28, 2016, 02:42:10 pm
For how many potatoes will President Trump sell the Baltic states back to their rightful owner, Agent Putin?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on July 30, 2016, 08:24:41 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGDvVCzM7C0

хаха как я это пропустил )))
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vibe on August 01, 2016, 11:44:13 am
presidente Putin visited Slovenia this weekend

Father-in-law works at the company that manages highways, apparently they had to give ruskies info on everyone who worked the roads Putin's convoy traversed for the past 6 months with a bunch of other security checks. His convoy was also escorted by helicopters and all kinds of security shit. No one kills presidente Putin, Putin kill u
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 01, 2016, 12:29:45 pm
Quote from: Vovka on July 30, 2016, 08:24:41 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGDvVCzM7C0

хаха как я это пропустил )))

english lyrics pls
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibes on August 01, 2016, 08:27:39 pm
Quote from: Paul on July 28, 2016, 02:42:10 pm
For how many potatoes will President Trump sell the Baltic states back to their rightful owner, Agent Putin?

Dont really think we need Trumps help for that one. Kremlins propaganda has been quite effective over the years. Now even outside the extremo nationalist Motherland quite many people don't consider Russia a threat anymore. Which would be fine if it isn't, unfortunately it still is. The worldwide concentration on how evil the US is has sorta created an image of Russia, that it is a misunderstood victim that counteracts to it. Because of this, if Russia starts grabbing more pieces of Eastern-Europe, this type of public opinion will most likely damage anyone's capability to counteract. Overall I think the Baltic has an expiration date, Trump or not. Some of you willing to start giving me lessons in russian? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 02, 2016, 12:21:37 am
Before the Ukraine affair, I would have disagreed with you, but now one can see a possible chain of event.
If the US pulled out troops from EU, + countries at the borders of Russia pulled out of NATO or NATO somehow exploded, then maybe your scenario could happen, if the revanchism/tension from Ukraine began to spread out in other countries in eastern Europe... I dont see how else it could happen realistically without triggering WW3 and Russia losing (and possibily humanity, and who want to get wiped for a few potatoes).

You're pretty much safe because there is too many loops to jump in, IMO.
And even if Trump was elected, I dont know why after making peace between US and Russia, Russia would instantly go to war with Europe, it seems to be counter-intuitive that if Russia gets included into the world peace, world war would begin.
I see more possibility for dubious war scenarios if Hillary wins, continuing the build up of tension between us and Russia to the breaking point.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Christo on August 02, 2016, 02:12:13 am
Quote from: Vibe on August 01, 2016, 11:44:13 am
presidente Putin visited Slovenia this weekend

Father-in-law works at the company that manages highways, apparently they had to give ruskies info on everyone who worked the roads Putin's convoy traversed for the past 6 months with a bunch of other security checks. His convoy was also escorted by helicopters and all kinds of security shit. No one kills presidente Putin, Putin kill u

when putin came here the russians 'requested' that every sewer hatch must be welded in place along their path.

its so damn comical like in comedy films or cartoons, that somebody would emerge from the sewers with an RPG to shoot him.. lmao
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 02, 2016, 03:30:17 pm
It's circus for the masses. It's a way to show how "important" he is (several helis), as well as legit and reasonable security measures.

I also don't believe in any war with the Baltic states, the west would never allow this, and RF would gain nothing.

My main concern about Russia is Russia itself, and their internal politics. If such huge nation doesn't progress, but continues its corrupt mafiesque system, you risk isolation in mind and economy. They already have massive braindrain, a few oligarchs own it all. It's all pretty sad for 140 million people + nations under their influence. I don't believe Putin is able to, or even want to begin transitioning to a modern state. Putin will not attack the Baltics, but if the country continues to deteriorate, perhaps an eventual successor will.

I'm not even saying Russia should or could be a normal democracy here, but you need a level of free press, you need people being accountable by their crimes, and you need a fair and functioning court system. (just couple of weeks ago, a Norwegian businessman was expelled from Russia labeled "spy" after running a successful cement business for years:http://thebarentsobserver.com/industry/2016/07/successful-norwegian-businessman-expelled-russia (http://thebarentsobserver.com/industry/2016/07/successful-norwegian-businessman-expelled-russia) )

I think the siege mentality is very destructive, almost a psychosis on a national scale. Meant to distract people from the everyday failings of the system, while the oligarch elite sucks out as much blood and gold as they can from the country.

They talk about Russophobia, but I have seriously never met anyone critical of RF culture itself. They have great music/arts, great history, great jokes and are very warm and welcoming people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 02, 2016, 03:50:45 pm
Putin isn't the only one who requests security measures. Whenever USA president or vice president visit a country, or even Chinese officials security measures are the same, of highest order. Only officials from Muslim Loving Union think they are smart going in the open without serious security measures. Until some allahu-snackbar kills one of them, then the rest will gather and draw flowers on the pavement.

Quote
free press

Free Murdochian press is nothing but late stage cancer. What he did to journalism around the world is horrible, and gives perfect excuse to despots around the world to go in a crusade against such press.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 02, 2016, 08:12:57 pm
They Slaughtered Ukraine’s Jews and Now You Want To Name Streets After Them? (http://forward.com/opinion/345738/they-slaughtered-ukraines-jews-and-now-you-want-to-name-streets-after-them/)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 02, 2016, 09:41:19 pm
2 years ago I thought the bandera thing was slightly fake...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 03, 2016, 02:40:46 am
Quote from: Butan on August 02, 2016, 09:41:19 pm
2 years ago I thought the bandera thing was slightly fake...

I meet some Ukrainians now and then here in Poland, none of them have been chocolate chip cookies, but a couple have been pretty backwards when it comes to gay people and also display pretty blunt racism. I'm not excusing the chocolate chip cookies, but you need to have two thoughts in the head: One is that it's the same in Russia. Another is that Ukraine is a nation at war, desperately scrambling for national identity and heroes. If you compare the two countries and their nationalism, it looks pretty similar in every way except for the symbols..

Now to see nationalism in Eastern Europe, and the way it's displayed is pretty absurd and depressing. No, I'm not talking Oberyn style skepticism to taking in immigrants (I don't think he would raise an eyebrow over Poland of 40 million accepting 2000 immigrants.), but plain open old neochocolate chip cookies, borrowing tons of symbology from chocolate chip cookie Germany (Who ironically wanted to kill or enslave most of Eastern Europeans slavs..) I guess Nationalism is a sort of last resort for many people. When they have lost their opportunities (for reals not imagined), the easiest thing is to blame others. (And sometimes it can be part of the truth, but not all the time, and not for everyone.)

So the Ukrainians blame the Russians, the Russians blame the west, the west blames the immigrants, and the muslims blames the Americans, who blame the blacks. All of them are partly right, but most of all, they should take a hard look at their own societies first.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on August 03, 2016, 05:30:15 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 03, 2016, 02:40:46 am
I guess Nationalism is a sort of last resort for many people. When they have lost their opportunities (for reals not imagined), the easiest thing is to blame others.

It doesn't explain why right wing ideologies are getting stronger among the youth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibes on August 03, 2016, 09:07:00 am
Quote from: Butan on August 02, 2016, 12:21:37 am
Before the Ukraine affair, I would have disagreed with you, but now one can see a possible chain of event.
If the US pulled out troops from EU, + countries at the borders of Russia pulled out of NATO or NATO somehow exploded, then maybe your scenario could happen, if the revanchism/tension from Ukraine began to spread out in other countries in eastern Europe... I dont see how else it could happen realistically without triggering WW3 and Russia losing (and possibily humanity, and who want to get wiped for a few potatoes).

You're pretty much safe because there is too many loops to jump in, IMO.
And even if Trump was elected, I dont know why after making peace between US and Russia, Russia would instantly go to war with Europe, it seems to be counter-intuitive that if Russia gets included into the world peace, world war would begin.
I see more possibility for dubious war scenarios if Hillary wins, continuing the build up of tension between us and Russia to the breaking point.

Not as much loops as youd think. There wont be a war. Kremlin is not insane. But that does not rule out occupation. Same thing that happened in Ukraine can easly happen here. Pro-Kremlin russian/baltic citizens rapidly replacing the ruling politicians with pro-russian politicians who no longer serve the interests of Europe or people in the Baltic, but only Russia. Nomatter how much NATO battalions you send here, countering this will forever be a full-time job.

Why, you may ask? Because the general problem is that Kremlin is an incredibly paranoid piece of work. The people working under it don't acknowledge that the European view can coexist with Russian views. Because they see the Europeans and everything they believe in as tainted by the evil US. This is why it is assumed that rus-baltic citizens will most likely stab the people of the Baltic in the back, despite them having a good life here. Because being under the Federation is untainted(or less tainted) politics. It doesn't really matter how much we do for the russian minorities here or how well we rule. The endgoal will always be to eliminate the Baltics relation with the rest of the West.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on August 03, 2016, 10:53:46 am
Quote from: Falka on August 03, 2016, 05:30:15 am
It doesn't explain why right wing ideologies are getting stronger among the youth.

Because young people of immigrant backgrounds harass them then the white kids get sad and mad and starts to hate every immigrant and goes to the extreme. Endless circle of resurgences in far right wing ideologies Ayy lmao.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 03, 2016, 12:27:21 pm
Quote from: Tibes on August 03, 2016, 09:07:00 am
The endgoal will always be to eliminate the Baltics relation with the rest of the West.

I agree that both US and Russia are fighting under the table to win countries in their own sphere of influence, in a back and forth that mostly benefited NATO in the last decades; and the Baltics could fell prey to this too, but if it happens it could be a mostly bloodless election/revolution that has apparent legality (like with Ukraine) and a change of political heads as you said.

If you truely believe that its stupid to think "US politics are tainted, RF is not", isnt the contrary equally brainless? ("RF politics are tainted, US is not)
So if there is a political change that isnt led by a military exterior intervention, you should do like pro-Russian Ukrainians and accept your destiny, continue living under people you hate.

You gotta accept that everyone just as paranoid as the other, saying that Russia are the masters paranoid that will aggressively attack others because of that while ignoring the rest is strange.
US-Nato paranoia driven strategical enclosing of Russia, diplomatical cessation, international dominance used to put economical sanctions and building up of tension is not proof? Of course not, its a legit counter-measure to Russia aggressive agenda!  :rolleyes:
Russia on the other hand has done what with its paranoia driven warmongering politics? Support pro-russian political parties, do covert stuff that noone can accurately depict, some aggressive military manoeuvering... and this everyone do.
Russia is clearly losing the global war atm, it can only feel good with Crimea but thats a pretty cheap victory. It cannot maintain a strong standing army like the US and can only count on nukes to deter a possible war with NATO, and even this is being jeopardized by anti-missile being put right at their doorstep, and noone gives a shit because Russia cant pull a "Cuba crisis" like the US did anymore.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 03, 2016, 12:55:43 pm
Sorry for DP, I hate late edit more^^

Quote from: Thomek on August 03, 2016, 02:40:46 am
I'm not excusing the chocolate chip cookies, but you need to have two thoughts in the head: One is that it's the same in Russia. Another is that Ukraine is a nation at war, desperately scrambling for national identity and heroes. If you compare the two countries and their nationalism, it looks pretty similar in every way except for the symbols..

I agree with your post which understands how things gets to where we are. History is understanding that and I am a very curious history student, so props to you to try and understand all this and help me with it.
You seem pretty much on point. Maybe except the fact that Ukraine is not really "at war", even though it is certainly an atmosphere that could be artificially maintained by the new political power to keep its people in check. There is only low-intensity skirmishes in the deepest corner of Ukraine, so truth be told, it doesnt really naturally explain to go full banderist retard  :P

This is a huge fail for two reasons: one, it fucking stinks even if you dont understand Ukraine's complex history at all; two, Russia's anti-New Ukraine propaganda is 90% fueled with Bandera/nazis in mind, and now it is impossible to refute that they are right to believe so.


You gotta also think about the fact that its natural to believe that, since Bandera and far-right BS is real back there, there is a chance the rest of the "rumors" are true.
I dont think you're trying to whitewash this Thomek even though it can seem so, but this is clearly a Russia political win and a European fail... We are going to nurture a fucking shitshow in the EU and soon NATO, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay  :?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 03, 2016, 02:28:47 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 03, 2016, 12:27:21 pm
I agree that both US and Russia are fighting under the table to win countries in their own sphere of influence, in a back and forth that mostly benefited NATO in the last decades; and the Baltics could fell prey to this too, but if it happens it could be a mostly bloodless election/revolution that has apparent legality (like with Ukraine) and a change of political heads as you said.

If u've ever been to the Baltics, it's more like please please please take us away from Russia and protect us! Remember they know what they are talking about..

Quote from: Butan on August 03, 2016, 12:55:43 pm
You gotta also think about the fact that its natural to believe that, since Bandera and far-right BS is real back there, there is a chance the rest of the "rumors" are true.

The most extreme guys didn't get many votes in the election. RF propaganda is saying they are all chocolate chip cookies, because they need to convince the average russian that Ukraine is now the enemy. I think they would anyway shamelessly say anything plausible in their own twisted world view. MH17 was a great example of how the spin was at its most ridiculous.

And Ukraine is at war. Just a little flame that RF can turn up whenever they feel like, as they have done in the past.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibes on August 03, 2016, 06:46:19 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 03, 2016, 12:27:21 pm
I agree that both US and Russia are fighting under the table to win countries in their own sphere of influence, in a back and forth that mostly benefited NATO in the last decades; and the Baltics could fell prey to this too, but if it happens it could be a mostly bloodless election/revolution that has apparent legality (like with Ukraine) and a change of political heads as you said.

If you truely believe that its stupid to think "US politics are tainted, RF is not", isnt the contrary equally brainless? ("RF politics are tainted, US is not)
So if there is a political change that isnt led by a military exterior intervention, you should do like pro-Russian Ukrainians and accept your destiny, continue living under people you hate.

You gotta accept that everyone just as paranoid as the other, saying that Russia are the masters paranoid that will aggressively attack others because of that while ignoring the rest is strange.
US-Nato paranoia driven strategical enclosing of Russia, diplomatical cessation, international dominance used to put economical sanctions and building up of tension is not proof? Of course not, its a legit counter-measure to Russia aggressive agenda!  :rolleyes:
Russia on the other hand has done what with its paranoia driven warmongering politics? Support pro-russian political parties, do covert stuff that noone can accurately depict, some aggressive military manoeuvering... and this everyone do.
Russia is clearly losing the global war atm, it can only feel good with Crimea but thats a pretty cheap victory. It cannot maintain a strong standing army like the US and can only count on nukes to deter a possible war with NATO, and even this is being jeopardized by anti-missile being put right at their doorstep, and noone gives a shit because Russia cant pull a "Cuba crisis" like the US did anymore.

Exactly. Russia is losing. Thats why Russia is extremely paranoid and always feels the obligation to make aggressive moves. What Russia tries to achieve with its paranoia driven warmongering politics is distance the Eastern part of Europe from the rest. Being a diehard ally or puppetstate of Russia is basically like it locking you in a tiny room. US-NATO is technically shit politics too, but it never does that, it isnt that desperately paranoid. Not only that, last I checked the US isnt forcing us to study english over our own languages.

The West is where the money is at. Majority of the economy and trade has become global. In Russia however it hasnt. It is incredibly scared to go global and all of its allies and puppets fear it too. The Baltic is doing significantly better than majority of Russia because, atleast afaik, it has adapted to the global economy rather well. Being part of Russia means that we all go back to swimming in dirtpoverty again with the rest of the federation. Russias paranoia over the US and the Global market is kinda the reason why it is the losing side and will most likely always be the losing side. Its fears might be justified, but that doesn't change the fact that under its wing nobody prospers in any way. You can pretty much hear that in the politicians speeches there. Nobody there expects Russia to prosper anymore. They expect that everyone elses economies will collapse to their level. They have been dreaming of that eversince the end of WW2 and they havent stopped since.  :lol:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on August 03, 2016, 07:11:10 pm
Alot of slavs are still reminiscent of the glory days of the soviet union where they would wait in line 5 hours for a slice of bread and then get their whole family deported to Gulag for taking an extra scoop of potato. I laugh when I see stupid Polaks who changed their last name because they are ashamed of being Polish, they are just as bad as the ones who pretend to be chocolate chip cookies or reminisce of the communist days when life was simple because they live on stolen land.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on August 03, 2016, 07:53:19 pm
Staple food was heavily subventioned (a least in the GDR) to a point that farmers fed buns to pigs because that was cheaper than actual animal feed. Standing in line for bread sounds unlikely to me.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Falka on August 03, 2016, 09:31:30 pm
Quote from: Grytviken on August 03, 2016, 07:11:10 pm
Alot of slavs are still reminiscent of the glory days of the soviet union where they would wait in line 5 hours for a slice of bread and then get their whole family deported to Gulag for taking an extra scoop of potato.

Meat - yes, bread & potato - nope.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibes on August 03, 2016, 09:32:44 pm
Wasnt really that bad in Estonian side of USSR either. It was just really, really bizarre and extremely dysfunctional. Money was worthless, everyone hauled stuff because everyone needed stuff. Getting clothes that would actually fit you required some serius legwork. Fish was rare thou.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 04, 2016, 12:59:22 am
Quote from: Grytviken on August 03, 2016, 07:11:10 pm
Alot of slavs are still reminiscent of the glory days of the soviet union where they would wait in line 5 hours for a slice of bread and then get their whole family deported to Gulag for taking an extra scoop of potato.

Implying that changed much... latest reports on piracy, world number one is Latvia (gratz) with over 45% of population visiting sites which promote piracy. First ten places are held by European countries. Some of them being Serbia (over 20% of population enjoying piracy), Bulgaria, Greece, Croatia, Spain etc.

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https://torrentfreak.com/europe-has-the-highest-online-piracy-rates-by-far-160801/

Vietnam used to be communist country (maybe still is, dunno) but so little pirates. Keep blaming communism and not mentality.

Edit: Just checked, Vietnam still red. Just like Cuba. Their living conditions are similar. Not much dollaritos but that doesn't stop them to be solid countries. No golden iPhones, but no unemployment. No McDonalds, but high life expectancy. No designer clothes, but ton of nice places to visit. Unlike Russia, Serbia, Latvia and other shitty post communist colonies.

In ten years I plan to earn a bit of money from software development, save it and move permanently to Fidel's Cuba. Sell PC, never buy TV and live in paradise like old Ernesto did. Expensive option is Buenos Aires. Those are my goals in life, not these NATO shitholes. You can exterminate yourselves and muslims all you like, idgaf.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on August 04, 2016, 05:17:10 am
Quote from: Leshma on August 04, 2016, 12:59:22 am
Keep blaming communism and not mentality.

All those goodies were stolen off the back of hard workers and farmers whether it was 50+ years ago or not doesn't matter, ofc I blame communism because they always wipe out the educated of any nation so they can exploit the workers for the "good of all". 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Paul on August 04, 2016, 08:44:26 am
It's funny because you actually believe in what you write. I don't think even Smooth goes that far. Operating Thetan tier stuff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on August 04, 2016, 11:31:57 am
Quote from: Leshma on August 02, 2016, 08:12:57 pm
They Slaughtered Ukraine’s Jews and Now You Want To Name Streets After Them? (http://forward.com/opinion/345738/they-slaughtered-ukraines-jews-and-now-you-want-to-name-streets-after-them/)

 Bolsheviks killed millions of Ukrainians that are long forgotten and many Jews supported the Bolsheviks in Ukraine and Poland during the Ukrainian Polish and Soviet 1917-1921 wars, pretty savage warcrime revenge the Ukrainians took on everyone during the chaos of WW2 because none was on their side, but Lenin and his cronies did far worse to them and he's still celebrated everywhere.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 04, 2016, 01:13:32 pm
Quote from: Tibes on August 03, 2016, 06:46:19 pm
Its fears might be justified, but that doesn't change the fact that under its wing nobody prospers in any way. You can pretty much hear that in the politicians speeches there. Nobody there expects Russia to prosper anymore. They expect that everyone elses economies will collapse to their level. They have been dreaming of that eversince the end of WW2 and they havent stopped since.  :lol:

Its funny how with the same facts one can end up with total opposite conclusion  :)
Yes Russia isnt prospering, its clinging for life, these are just facts. But why is it? The economic isolationism of Russia is a self-inflicted politics that originates from Putin's idea of how to conduct his country?
The fight over gas/oil and global prices, the non-inclusion of trade markets, the prefered trade deals which are almost embargoes today due to the diplomatic pressure over Crimea and Syria, the economic sanctions; are they self-inflicted?

Russia is a capitalist country, it is perfectly capable of being included in the global market, but it is forbidden to so it must try to survive with the rest of rising powers + the second/third world countries as a matter of consequence. Its all part of an economical war that originate from the WW2, with the first cold war, then the de-escalation after USSR dissolution and the second cold war we have today (which could also include China and USA soon over south china conflicts, maybe China and Russia are going to be BFF before any solution appears :shock:).

They might be dreaming that other countries are going to have their economies even more fucked than theirs, but thats the same thing on the other side m8: do you really believe that the US and the EU arent losing money over this? Every countries are inter-connected, so this economical war basically means that both are trying to shoot off their foot in the hope that it means the other's heart is crushed. To believe that Russia is the only one to want so, that it has created this atmosphere on purpose and wants to maintain this status quo is pure madness because they are losing more than the other side. Next we are going to hear that of course its that way because Putin himself is pure madness I guess, which can justify any political reasoning  :lol:

Taking a guess here but, I'm almost sure that all Putin wants is keep Crimea as a "punishment" for the end of the historical neutrality of Ukraine (not saying its right, this is just a game remember?), be recognised internationally and then support to separatist movement in Ukraine will strangely end ( :wink: ), sanctions to be lift up and more deals to be made for capitalism to profit everyone, and a coordinated effort in the war with ISIS to respect each and everyone's allies or make/remove some.
I see no way of it happening because that sounds like pure and utter madness to 100% of the cold war bred politicians and still a good part of the media which has been feeding hate toward Russia in a largely uninterrupted fashion. So might as well prepare for a WW3 or just enjoy seeing Russia getting fucked harder than ourselves I guess? Or pray for Trump to deal some new cards  :P



Quote from: Thomek on August 03, 2016, 02:28:47 pm
And Ukraine is at war. Just a little flame that RF can turn up whenever they feel like, as they have done in the past.

You are right that they fear a real war and can easily justify it. What I said is that these skirmishes with pro-Russians are easily equaled with a state of war, which can be used as a political tool to further justify extreme actions and positioning, all fueled by war and fear of war.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 04, 2016, 02:18:04 pm
Quote from: Grytviken on August 04, 2016, 05:17:10 am
All those goodies were stolen off the back of hard workers and farmers whether it was 50+ years ago or not doesn't matter, ofc I blame communism because they always wipe out the educated of any nation so they can exploit the workers for the "good of all".

That's only partially true. Communism in many countries happened after WWII. Most people still living in those areas were poorly educated, malnourished, in very poor state generally. Those remnants of educated minority were accused as traitors which was not true in some cases but in many it was correct assumption. That didn't stop those countries to rise from the ashes very quickly and produce educated people who would run globally acclaimed universities in less than two decades. After those two decades of building the foundations communism started dying off.

In the end it was replaced by the worst kind of crony capitalism where the cooperative effort of people through decades ended in hands of few thieves and shady group of people in general. That's what you have in Russia today, early capitalism fully controlled by group of so called oligarchs, former criminals or government spies, killers and other scum of the Earth. Just like mold of Soviet communism has been applied to other countries of the eastern block, in same way every post communist country through so called transition ended with similar brand of corrupted capitalism.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 04, 2016, 07:51:57 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 04, 2016, 01:13:32 pm
Russia is a capitalist country, it is perfectly capable of being included in the global market, but it is forbidden to so it must try to survive with the rest of rising powers + the second/third world countries as a matter of consequence. Its all part of an economical war that originate from the WW2, with the first cold war, then the de-escalation after USSR dissolution and the second cold war we have today (which could also include China and USA soon over south china conflicts, maybe China and Russia are going to be BFF before any solution appears :shock:).

No it is not. I suggest you go there and see. There's practically nothing Russia produces, except raw materials and weapons developed during Soviet times that the rest of the world wants. Such excuses that they are the victims of an economical war, and that's why they have their situation is dangerous as fuck. The sanctions are a recent thing and a direct response to Ukraine crisis.

On paper it should be prospering and growing fast: 140 million people, incomparably vast resources. Decent education levels and little inner turmoil, with a lot of unity.

Two weeks in Russia for me, was enough to see glaring signs of why it's not so. Believe me when I say that having strong vertical structures in society. Where the powerful wield and will use any power they have to ruin your life. It's a system that produces and reproduces lies, corruption, scheming, to the point it becomes a part of everyday life, and a necessity to survive. The people that bubble to the top in such a system are the most scheming lying psychopaths imaginable. For a "good" person in such a society, the best you can do is try to stay invisible, and not come up with any good ideas, not do anything they can hang you for, for whatever reason they invent.

I don't blame the average Russian, I really don't. I blame the system that is geared and oiled for this abuse, producing people, leaders and mentalities that carry this system on.

And now you think that the west is also a bit like this. Maybe yes, it's not perfect. But our problems are NOTHING compared to what they experience there. Seriously, if you are a Russian patriot, if you love Russia, standing by in silence watching this horror not getting fixed is the worst you can do.

It sounds like you have friends or family in Russia. Take a moment to think about their probably absurd problems, their struggles to get relatively simple things done, their stories of obscene power abuse. This is the reason they are backwards, that's there is little change or development, that it is not a dynamic society.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on August 04, 2016, 09:11:06 pm
Quote from: Leshma on August 04, 2016, 02:18:04 pm
That's only partially true. Communism in many countries happened after WWII. Most people still living in those areas were poorly educated, malnourished, in very poor state generally. Those remnants of educated minority were accused as traitors which was not true in some cases but in many it was correct assumption. That didn't stop those countries to rise from the ashes very quickly and produce educated people who would run globally acclaimed universities in less than two decades. After those two decades of building the foundations communism started dying off.

In the end it was replaced by the worst kind of crony capitalism where the cooperative effort of people through decades ended in hands of few thieves and shady group of people in general. That's what you have in Russia today, early capitalism fully controlled by group of so called oligarchs, former criminals or government spies, killers and other scum of the Earth. Just like mold of Soviet communism has been applied to other countries of the eastern block, in same way every post communist country through so called transition ended with similar brand of corrupted capitalism.

Communism was always corrupt from the start and exploited the struggle of the working man when in reality it punished them. The communists stole from Ukrainian farmers and murdered them based on how many acres of farmland they worked. While Poland and Baltic states got their independence Ukraine could not and was punished heavily in the interwar period which is why some Ukrainians look to people like Petilura as their national heroes because he fought for an independent Ukraine.

The 2nd Polish Republic was a beautiful thing despite the economic difficulties of a customs war Germany imposed and having to rebuild after the Russians pillaged everything on their way out. Many universities opened and literacy rates spiked. This was the core foundation of an educated Republic of Slavs the communists always seek'd to undermine and destroy and they finally got their chance when they helped the chocolate chip cookies in WW2.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibes on August 04, 2016, 10:06:22 pm
Quote from: Butan on August 04, 2016, 01:13:32 pm
Its funny how with the same facts one can end up with total opposite conclusion  :)
Yes Russia isnt prospering, its clinging for life, these are just facts. But why is it? The economic isolationism of Russia is a self-inflicted politics that originates from Putin's idea of how to conduct his country?
The fight over gas/oil and global prices, the non-inclusion of trade markets, the prefered trade deals which are almost embargoes today due to the diplomatic pressure over Crimea and Syria, the economic sanctions; are they self-inflicted?

Russia is a capitalist country, it is perfectly capable of being included in the global market, but it is forbidden to so it must try to survive with the rest of rising powers + the second/third world countries as a matter of consequence. Its all part of an economical war that originate from the WW2, with the first cold war, then the de-escalation after USSR dissolution and the second cold war we have today (which could also include China and USA soon over south china conflicts, maybe China and Russia are going to be BFF before any solution appears :shock:).

They might be dreaming that other countries are going to have their economies even more fucked than theirs, but thats the same thing on the other side m8: do you really believe that the US and the EU arent losing money over this? Every countries are inter-connected, so this economical war basically means that both are trying to shoot off their foot in the hope that it means the other's heart is crushed. To believe that Russia is the only one to want so, that it has created this atmosphere on purpose and wants to maintain this status quo is pure madness because they are losing more than the other side. Next we are going to hear that of course its that way because Putin himself is pure madness I guess, which can justify any political reasoning  :lol:


...

Im gonna stop you right there. Its definately not a capitalist country and its not forbidden to join anything. Russia has had access to the global market eversince it got built. But they just dont produce anything that the 3rd world doesnt for cheaper cost. And that has always kinda grinded their gears and they have thrown a hissyfit. Russian trademark is the absolute shit. Why do you think the Baltic has to put up extra effort for the "we are not russians" message before selling anyone anything?  And it has nothing to do with EU or USA. Ask any Western businessman who ever invested anything in Russia and pulled out furiously. The russians skin them alive there. Not only that the state legimately fucks every business thats foreign with a massive hammer and sickle straight in the asshole. The ruskies lose more than the other side because they have no idea how the global market works and nobody fucks foreign investors more than Russia. And its all because of paranoia and that quite serius russian mentality. Their fear or money going out is so severe that they wont allow any movement of it inside their own country. Again, mybe kinda justified, but no suprise they are poor if applying methods like that. I mean common. Think about it. "This buisness is a US buisness, lets just remove it". That kind of nonsense harassment is not pulled anywhere in the West.

And Putin imo has nothing to do with it. Putin is everything that in my opinion represents the will of the Russian people. Strong and ruthless. Everything he does is probably everything every decent russian leader that listens to its people would do. But yeah, I fully believe that the economic shithole that is in Russia is self-inflicted. The EU isnt at all so hateful of Russia. Quite the opposite. But every Western businessman that ever wanted to do buisness with russians, got fucked by Kremlin 10 years ago and lost a lot of money. So yeah. No money is going to move in there any time soon. As a foreign buisness even if you get past the local buisnessmen who legimately use "baseballbat to the kneecap" tactics, eventually you got to deal with Kremlin itself.

And China and Russia are never going to be BFFs. Look at the worldmap and you will see why. Russia, despite hiding these facts, has had quite heavy conflicts with China on its Eastern side. If anyone has any reason at all to do anything to Russia its most definatly China. Its just running out of room and Russia has plenty of it. What the fuck is US or EU gonna do with it? Russia isnt even an economical threat to anyone in the West. The Western economy is crumbling on its own and Russia is just some random drunk slav in adidas yelling random insults on the street to it while the West is shooting itself in the foot.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 05, 2016, 12:22:14 am
Quote from: Grytviken on August 04, 2016, 09:11:06 pm
Communism was always corrupt from the start and exploited the struggle of the working man when in reality it punished them. The communists stole from Ukrainian farmers and murdered them based on how many acres of farmland they worked. While Poland and Baltic states got their independence Ukraine could not and was punished heavily in the interwar period which is why some Ukrainians look to people like Petilura as their national heroes because he fought for an independent Ukraine.

The 2nd Polish Republic was a beautiful thing despite the economic difficulties of a customs war Germany imposed and having to rebuild after the Russians pillaged everything on their way out. Many universities opened and literacy rates spiked. This was the core foundation of an educated Republic of Slavs the communists always seek'd to undermine and destroy and they finally got their chance when they helped the chocolate chip cookies in WW2.

Not that I disagree but you need to clarify who you refer to when you say communism? You want to say that people who worked for free on common goal rebuilding those countries, just like they did in post war Germany, are rotten? They were mostly following the ideal you know. I agree that politicians were rotten, but are you really making the claim that isn't the case in capitalism?

Communism should be nation in its entirety, working towards a common goal. In theory. I don't see how is that rotten. But that just isn't possible due to human nature, because if you remove central authority someone else, much smaller, will think it is time for him to become authority. Which is exactly what happened before Stalin started ruling with iron fist. You can't blame the system because humans are assholes in general. Capitalism is built on that very fact and all gains it makes are based on human greed.

About Slav states before 20th century, they weren't great. People in monarchy were little better than slaves. They had free will but all their possessions were first and foremost owned by the ruling class: monarch, his immediate family and rich folks close to them. Communist taken that from them and forced them to share everything with everyone (in theory) and since villagers were always piss poor they cherished that little they had and seen communism as evil. But those same communists brought them to cities, built apartments for them, they stopped being poor villagers and got a chance to make something for themselves and their children. Same things Europe is doing for muslim youth and as you can see many of them aren't exactly grateful.

Quote
The 2nd Polish Republic was a beautiful thing

Maybe, but it was extremely fragile. Kinda like EU is atm. Sadly, strong military is necessity in human societies.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibes on August 05, 2016, 09:25:39 am
Quote from: Leshma on August 05, 2016, 12:22:14 am
Communism should be nation in its entirety, working towards a common goal. In theory. I don't see how is that rotten. But that just isn't possible due to human nature, because if you remove central authority someone else, much smaller, will think it is time for him to become authority. Which is exactly what happened before Stalin started ruling with iron fist. You can't blame the system because humans are assholes in general. Capitalism is built on that very fact and all gains it makes are based on human greed.

People are different aswell. With different needs. You make capitalism sound so evil. Greed? Yeah, but not only. Its built also on a fact that its in a societies best interest to fill the majority of its peoples needs. Quite many buisnesses have also risen up with individuals who felt the urge to buy something, couldnt get it, researched it, started making or importing it themselves and providing it to the rest. Controlled economy doesnt work because it sees fit to only fill a persons basic need and nothing else.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 05, 2016, 06:04:49 pm
So you're advocate of self regulating market, is that right?

My views are radically different. For example I think that our main priority atm should be leaving this rock while we have the chance. That goes above specific needs and individual freedom. Used to be for personal freedom but as lately I tend to care about humanity and its future. Environmental issues should come before our personal quirks. Why? Because things are going in wrong direction and if we keep it this way it won't matter what we did in the past. Because we'll cease to exist.

Model of society that gets my approval is the one that will help us overcome this crisis we as a specie have at hand, but we ignore it. First secure the future, then think about exotic needs of every asshole that gets popped up from female vagina.

In case we're not planning to make situation better at least we should not make it worse. Capitalism isn't evil because it exploits human flaws, it is evil because it is a threat for human survival.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Thomek on August 05, 2016, 07:17:55 pm
Stalinist environmentalist spotted.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Tibes on August 05, 2016, 07:23:17 pm
Quote from: Leshma on August 05, 2016, 06:04:49 pm
So you're advocate of self regulating market, is that right?

My views are radically different. For example I think that our main priority atm should be leaving this rock while we have the chance. That goes above specific needs and individual freedom. Used to be for personal freedom but as lately I tend to care about humanity and its future. Environmental issues should come before our personal quirks. Why? Because things are going in wrong direction and if we keep it this way it won't matter what we did in the past. Because we'll cease to exist.

Model of society that gets my approval is the one that will help us overcome this crisis we as a specie have at hand, but we ignore it. First secure the future, then think about exotic needs of every asshole that gets popped up from female vagina.

In case we're not planning to make situation better at least we should not make it worse. Capitalism isn't evil because it exploits human flaws, it is evil because it is a threat for human survival.

So do I, in some form. But I know I am a weak coward. When it comes down to it, it will be elitism. But the elite will be the rocketscientists and physicists, in your scenarios case. Everyone else is forced to crawl in the dirt. I would  basically be forfeiting my entire life for the greater good. And I know damn well I will break if I will be forced to do so. Do you think you can survive as the most hopelessly bottom layer of a society?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on August 05, 2016, 08:14:29 pm
Quote from: Leshma on August 05, 2016, 06:04:49 pm


My views are radically different. For example I think that our main priority atm should be leaving this rock while we have the chance. That goes above specific needs and individual freedom. Used to be for personal freedom but as lately I tend to care about humanity and its future. Environmental issues should come before our personal quirks. Why? Because things are going in wrong direction and if we keep it this way it won't matter what we did in the past. Because we'll cease to exist.

Model of society that gets my approval is the one that will help us overcome this crisis we as a specie have at hand, but we ignore it. First secure the future, then think about exotic needs of every asshole that gets popped up from female vagina.

In case we're not planning to make situation better at least we should not make it worse. Capitalism isn't evil because it exploits human flaws, it is evil because it is a threat for human survival.

Even if humanity survives an apocalyptic disaster like nuclear fallout or China blowing a hole in the atmosphere by burning astronomical amounts of unfiltered plastic it's already too late for western civilization, the never ending barrage of institutionalized SJW ideology will eventually turn western males into electronic smoking transgender freaks of nature which will lead to natural extinction, our fate is sealed.

Slavs and other random people (Hungarians, Finns, Siberians etc.) will have to rebuild civilization after the US goes down slaying the communist hydra of satan (Russia, China and best Korea) whether that's in space or on earth, nature is very resilient so I think Earth would eventually recover.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on August 06, 2016, 01:45:43 am
Quote from: Thomek on August 05, 2016, 07:17:55 pm
Stalinist environmentalist spotted.

Environmental issues are the only real issues we have. Everything else is superficial and can become non issue just by changing the way of thinking. Some people think that is hard, but our greatest advantage is adaptability. However when you poison your environment, fixing it isn't that simple.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 11, 2016, 08:56:46 am
If someone have free time ^^ http://sputniknews.com/military/20160810/1044127977/fsb-terrorism-crimea-ukraine.html

By the way these days in Ukraine goes trial. Volunteers Battalion "Tornado" are accused of rape, torture, murder, stealing cars, etc. those very same guys "are not chocolate chip cookies," and "not criminals" .  I gave links to them here early, so time will tell... There is a video with the testimony of the survivors from the courtroom and investigative experiments video where they tell everything, unfortunately only in Russian

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on August 11, 2016, 11:03:23 am
#PutinSaveUkraine
#PutinBless
#PutinWillCrushTheNa.zis


Putin 1 - Na.zis 0
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 11, 2016, 11:51:06 am
Quote from: LordBerenger on August 11, 2016, 11:03:23 am
#PutinSaveUkraine
#PutinBless
#PutinWillCrushTheNa.zis


Putin 1 - Na.zis 0
Putin >>>>> Obama
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 11, 2016, 12:21:55 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 11, 2016, 11:51:06 am
Putin >>>>> Obama

Obama is not gonna stay much longer, due to the fact that the USA has a system that doesnt allow a president to stay in control for decades  :P :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Butan on August 11, 2016, 12:34:56 pm
Quote from: Thomek on August 04, 2016, 07:51:57 pm
Such excuses that they are the victims of an economical war, and that's why they have their situation is dangerous as fuck. The sanctions are a recent thing and a direct response to Ukraine crisis.

The sanctions are a recent thing and represent one episode of a continuous story: the hostility/fear of Russia which directly influence commercial deals between the nations and its peoples is a 1950's thing that has been fueled non-stop since, with highs and lows of course...
I add, fueled by facts and/or fantaisies. I believe you guys up there in the Baltics or in the vincinity have some knowledge and credibility, I read you with interest, I do not ignore everything you say, I just doubt.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Vovka on August 11, 2016, 06:06:09 pm
https://themoscowtimes.com/news/eu-imposes-anti-dumping-fees-on-russian-major-steel-producers-54859

the same thing will happen with any other shit, except for petroleum and timber so no reason to even try
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Grytviken on August 12, 2016, 11:47:33 pm
Quote from: Vovka on August 11, 2016, 08:56:46 am
If someone have free time ^^ http://sputniknews.com/military/20160810/1044127977/fsb-terrorism-crimea-ukraine.html

By the way these days in Ukraine goes trial. Volunteers Battalion "Tornado" are accused of rape, torture, murder, stealing cars, etc. those very same guys "are not chocolate chip cookies," and "not criminals" .  I gave links to them here early, so time will tell... There is a video with the testimony of the survivors from the courtroom and investigative experiments video where they tell everything, unfortunately only in Russian

(click to show/hide)

 There's also some pretty brutal videos of Russian paramilitaries torturing people to do death (whipping Ukrainians with metal wire until they are dead) that have been posted on liveleak.

 Paramilitaries are savage because they are usually driven by revenge.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 29, 2017, 03:06:52 pm
No one gives a fuck.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jacaroma on January 30, 2017, 04:06:32 am
what the fuck. why does this have 708 pages worth of shit?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: LordBerenger on January 30, 2017, 04:23:41 am
Quote from: Jacaroma on January 30, 2017, 04:06:32 am
what the fuck. why does this have 708 pages worth of shit?

Angry Western Europeans and angry Cyka Blyat Russians discussing back and forth.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Molly on January 30, 2017, 03:18:47 pm
Best thread ever with some pure golden moments in it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Leshma on January 30, 2017, 03:40:58 pm
Last time I've read something about situation in Ukraine it was about corruption, government officials spending foreign "help" on some crazy shit (think one article mentioned space tourism lol). But as I said, Ukraine is not in the focus anymore, no one gives a fuck. It does seem that today situation is a lot worse than it was and it was horrible to begin with. It was never much of a country but now I'm not sure is it even a country, internally. Seems to be divided, like that war they had never stopped. Politicians on the Russian side of country stealing money for Putin and those who brought democracy stealing for the West. No proper government on either side, just bunch of thieves. Basically one major thieving group controlled by Putin was split into two, one controlled by Putin one controlled by West. Which means that Ukraine today is at least two times worse than it was before riots.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
Post by: Jarold on November 02, 2022, 04:38:01 am
This aged well