I seem to miss the sickening part...You would be okay with Berlin praising einstein a few days a year?
You would be okay with Berlin praising einstein a few days a year?
Yes, Einstein was good. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein .
Wish they rename Uzice to Titovo Uzice and Podgorica to Titograd :lol:
Seriously, nothing wrong with this. Just butthurt dudes from former Soviet Republics, nothing more.
Seriously, nothing wrong with this. Just butthurt dudes from former Soviet Republics, nothing more.Yeah, man, renaming a city of 1 million people after the greatest mass murderer of 20th century, totally cool. When are Hilter and Pol Pot getting their cities?
Yeah, man, renaming a city of 1 million people after the greatest mass murderer of 20th century, totally cool. When are Hilter and Pol Pot getting their cities?
PWe couldnt do that in the past and now we making up for lost time by showing as much middlefinger to our eastern neibhour as much as possible before they start invading us again, since apparently they dont have enough land yet. :lol:
That is what you think. I bet there are many Russians who think that Stalin is a hero. Do you know why they think that? Because he did same Hilter and Mao did before they started killing people, he helped his country survive serious economic crisis. Chinese today don't condemn Mao, just like Japanese don't hate Hirohito (he wasn't any better than any of guys mentioned). No wonder Putin has sympathy for Stalin, they are similar in a way. Both came to power when their country was economic mess and helped it overcome that.
Germans condemn einstein because whole world hates him. But deep inside I think there are many Germans who hate just one thing about einstein and that's the fact he lost the war.
Probably the first time that i totally agree with leshma.That's because of you are clueless :wink:
That's because of you are clueless :wink:
That's because of you are clueless :wink:
[...]Talking about this. Couldn't care less about your opinions about the rest...
Germans condemn einstein because whole world hates him. But deep inside I think there are many Germans who hate just one thing about einstein and that's the fact he lost the war.
When it comes to military history, trust me, I know all of it.
Whether you like it or not, and despite their attrocities , most of the tyrants, if not all, want whats best for their country.
Thats the only thing I respect.
einstein wanted a strong Germany, same did Mao, same did Stalin, I can`t see something bad in that, the bad thing is how they tried to achieve it.
After all, it's not the destination but the journey that counts.
Talking about this. Couldn't care less about your opinions about the rest...
That's where both of you are clueless. And at least about Panos I accepted by now that he isn't even willing to learn...
Talking about this. Couldn't care less about your opinions about the rest...
That's where both of you are clueless. And at least about Panos I accepted by now that he isn't even willing to learn...
Yeah yeah typical molly, when it comes to talking serious, always tries to make others look stupid, i`m tired of your highnose shit bro, either speak with respect like me and leshma do, or you can go fuck yourself.lol like anyone is taking you serious :mrgreen:
pathetic cunt.
lol like anyone is taking you serious :mrgreen:
After all the acts you pulled, you really believe people don't think anymore that your a complete joke just cuz you pulled your act together for... like what? 4 weeks now?
You're hilarious... keep it coming, haven`t felt that much entertained for a long time.
Oh, wait... I know you enjoy these pics... found the fitting one just for you, maybe you even remember it from the last time you were really serious and shit:(click to show/hide)
You would be okay with Berlin praising einstein a few days a year?
Yes, Einstein was good. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein .
Then give me answer to question that never got a proper answer. Why Germans supported einstein through the war? Whenever someone brings that, answer is that Germans couldn't overthrow him (he was too strong) which kinda makes sense or my favorite, that he was magician and that whole Germany was under his spell :lol:They voted for him cuz he was promising work and food. Most people at that time when albert rose to power didn't even take him serious. He was a man shouting a lot, showing off on parades but he promised work and food. And he kept his promise. That's where the support came from at the early beginnings before the war even started.
Believe me, I lived under a tyrant. I know how that looks like and why people support a tyrant and when and why they decide to stop supporting him. You didn't, all you know about einstein you learned from history books and your ancestors.
In my case, support stopped when people realised that tyrant is weak and can't win anymore. That is the only moment they turned their backs to him. If he won (against NATO) he would still have fantastic support of his countrymen. If people live decently under a tyrant, they will always support him. Putin is tyrant too but people are satisfied with his rule.
People overthrow the likes of PolPot because he was doing some serious damage to his country. If he did that to foreign country but they lived a good life, they would support him. It's not about good or bad, it's about living a good life. Most people still eat meat (million of dead animals everyday) and use products made by poor and malnourished people who live short and pitiful lives but they don't care. What is important to them is to live good. Ideals are just an excuse and in most cases, circlejerking.
Germany was weak by the end of WW1. Hit.ler made it look strong and took advantage of the germans hate for the rest of Europe for pinning the blame of WW1 entirely on them. [...]Not true. Who the hell teaches you those things.
Stalingrad was named like that after Stalin defeated the Whites, PTX you can continue your holy war, it`s funny watching people, who apparently don`t know history, trying to prove they are right..what the fuck are you even on about?
what the fuck are you even on about?
protip: the OP contains a link.
Apparently for you, a war is a mass murder.
albert didn't take it that lightly and he found support under former soldiers who came home to be left by their wife, no job and no perspective. The state forgot about its soldiers and made the the "albert phenomenon" possible.
If it isn't, it can't be very far.
Definition of murder : The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
In a war both sides fight.
I`ve read it.what
You said something about mass murder, so either you were reffering to Stalins attrocities against the Whites, or the WW2 battle.
Apparently for you, a war is a mass murder.
what
Just what
Okay, let me explain, so that even you can understand (how kind of me): Stalin is responsible for the deaths of untold millions of innocent civilians during his reign - both russians and a lot of other nationalities as well. He was a psychopathic mass murderer, not a dime better than, say, Hilter or Pol Pot or Mao or whathaveyou.
The local government of the city of Volgograd (which is a very major city) has now decided, that, 6 days of the year, the city will once again be known as Stalingrad, in remembrance of Soviet "victories" (obviously together with lots of praise to "great leader Stalin"). This is but a single case among others of not just the denial of soviet crimes and terror, but actual outright praise, that is happening in the east.
Which part of this do you not understand?
Aye, some of the stuff Leshma said....was well....not so correct as one might think. My oppinon of the matter is that only clueless brainwashed people or those that have something to gain from it, idolize Stalin. Stalin did not help the country out of economic crysis, he just,manipulated the media so that the people living under the iron curtain would STFU and work and think that there is no crysis, no crime, no poverty, while it was completely the opposite.
Was it called Defeatedwhitesgrad? No, it's Stalingrad. Even the soviets themselves, that came after Stalin understood this better.
I know all that, because Stalin killed Pontiac Greeks aswell, what I wanted to say, and I probably wrote it wrong was , that Stalingrad was named after Stalin`s victory against the Whites(russian nationalism party).
And for anyone to celebrate the legacy of the USA is a shame.
They voted for him cuz he was promising work and food. Most people at that time when albert rose to power didn't even take him serious. He was a man shouting a lot, showing off on parades but he promised work and food. And he kept his promise. That's where the support came from at the early beginnings before the war even started.
Most people were still okay with the Poland thing but people already became sceptic a that point.
You all seem to forget though that at this point albert already had a whole state system under his control. You couldn't talk, drink, eat or shit w/o the fear that your neighbour, co-worker or even distant relative won't rat you out to the police or Gestapo. Everyone was afraid cuz, although nobody talked about it, everyone knew what happens to people not "supporting" the system.
alberts leadership wasn't supported by agreement but by fear. Same during the whole war really. Saying "No" to the recruitment officer wasn't an option. Instead of being shot on the battlefield, you would had been shot right at the spot your standing.
You can easily assume that way more than 50% of the German population didn't support albert during the years of war. Only the hard-liner were Näzis, the common guy on the street was just trying to stay alive somehow, trying to stay hidden in the masses.
And about the Holocaust? Well, nobody really knows how much the common folks knew about what happened to the Jews. My personal guess is that most knew about them being carried of to death. I doubt though that they actually knew how it was done...
Edit:
Not true. Who the hell teaches you those things.
At the end of WW1 everyone was disappointed but they were glad it was over.
There was no hate towards the French or anyone else really. They were glad the war was over and they were trying to get their lifes back.
albert didn't take it that lightly and he found support under former soldiers who came home to be left by their wife, no job and no perspective. The state forgot about its soldiers and made the the "albert phenomenon" possible.
Dont be a jackass about it. Its very much debatable, again something we were tought. There really wasnt ONE 100% correct awnser to these things, there were multible.
Calling your own oppinion correct and others here wrong while acting all high and mighty just shows your own ignorance really. I dunno who the hell teached you this.
Dont be a jackass about it. Its very much debatable, again something we were tought. There really wasnt ONE 100% correct awnser to these things, there were multible.I am talking about the majority of the population which was just happy to get out of it somewhat alive.
Calling your own oppinion correct and others here wrong while acting all high and mighty just shows your own ignorance really. I dunno who the hell teached you this.
Peasant, mind your manners when you speak to high lord Molly.Were you born as the annoying prick you displaying yourself here, after demanding people to be serious, or is it some illness you're developing lately? Do tell me cuz I care...
you forget how the Red army stormed around the Baltic, basically raping women, burning houses, stealing everything, deporting innocent people to Siberia and murdering those that resisted.:lol:
Can't expect Russians not to be proud of their "Great Patriotic War". I understand them more than, say, Americans and their ridiculous propaganda of WW2. "Greatest Generation", leaders of the free world bullshit, to this day the vast majority of Americans are totally convinced they are the heroes of WW2, despite losing 400k throughout the entire war and only 1.7k civilians, or 0.32 % of their total population. Compared to USSR, 23 million casualties, more than half civilians, for 13.8 % of their total population. Is the Red Army and Stalin worship also propaganda? Of course it is, a lot of it. Red Army commited horrible attrocities on civilians as well, not just on German civilians but also all the small ethnic groups bordering Russia that they had always dominated and tried to absorb, like the baltic countries, but people have a tendency to brush it off as "just revenge" or something.
And Firebrand, as brainwashed as he seems to be, has a point. Some people point at Stalingrad as the begining of the end for the western theater of WW2 (I'd say Kursk was really the final blow). The Soviets and the Germans both turned that campaign into a vehicle of propaganda symbolizing the entire war. Renaming the city to Stalingrad a few days a year I see as more of a testament to the Soviet people who died fighting there and in the war as a whole, not so much Stalin himself. Some people like Firebrand don't seem to be able to distinguish the difference between the two though...
edit: I also understand the feeling of those small ethnicities surrounding Russia. Especially post WW2, the Soviets did everything possible to erase their language, their history, their identity, flooded them with Russian immigrants in what I like to call Chinese style colonization. You can see how some present day Russians (i.e Firebrand) paint anything that has to do with these "breakaway" former Soviet republics as filled with evil chocolate chip cookie worshippers who just hate Russians. Yeah, there are huge ethnic tensions between the artificially implanted Russian minorities and the "natives", but it's understandable why...
What came to my mind, reading Oberyns post, that there was some civil war thing for a few days in some country close to Russia where one half was shooting at the other half and the attacked side was pro-Russian and even Russian military got in there to "protect" them and stuff?
I don't really get it together any more since it seemed more like a side-note to history but there was something. Like 3-4 years ago maybe?
I am too lazy to google it tbh. And now I lost my thought why I started to write this in the first place... damn it.
And about Russians being proud... I think there is a lack of reflection when it comes to Stalin and all those crimes during WW2 by the Russian side. That's something where Germany is far more advanced than maybe any other country really.
And about the RAF bombs... for me Dresden comes to mind first.
I don't say that repressions made by Stalin regime is ok or something. It abominations in my eyes as told before. For all innosent people who was repressed by political reasons it was big tragedy. People suffered. But who told you about millions of executed during repressions? What books do you read? Solzhenitsin? or whatever his name in english... Phew.. Or maybe you didn't read about it any book, but heard it on TV or internet?
Show me documentary evidences about "millions" executed people by Stalin. Can you find it? Nah you can't. Cause its another brainwashed western propaganda myth. In other word lies.
Ok your argument is somewhat confusing. After cutting through all the patriotic bull crap this stood out:Can you clarify authors name - there is lot of books with such dramatic and catchy title: "The Road Of Bones". I will take a look at it if i will have free time.
Ah you seriously trying to deny that Stalin killed millions of people. I'm not even going to bother continue arguing if you are.
Heck just go read up on the Road of Bones and see how lovely Stalin was.
And about baltic countries. Let them scream, noone cares about them. Its their prerogative to scream more than others. How else they could attract attention to themselves? Let them better look into mirror and deal with neonazzism inside their countries instead hate Russia! Maybe then they'll feel better...
No I cannot as it was a long time ago that I read about these things. Regardless, I think this would be fruitless anyway as no source would be good enough.Man believe me, i don't really want to change someone opinion especially here on forum. If you guys like to think about Stalin killed tens or even hundreds millions of innocent people you free to think that. I don't care. I just asked for evidences - all archives are declassified and available so welcome to Russia and try to find all those "millions killed by Stalin himself with his personal nagant". You can call me troll or idiot i don't care. Of course for you western people pleasantly to think about Russia like bloody terror state. And we guilty ourselves in that opinion of western countries. We are the first who paint in dirt our history. They write books in english to show our state in black tones they re-write history, including ww2 history.
I think you'd enjoy this thread: http://forum.meleegaming.com/historical-discussion/has-history-ever-happened/
Text with personal insultingDo you know about 14, 15, 19, 20 SS-divisions? Do you understand that they was involved in inhuman crimes agaisnt civilian people? Do you know that contingent served in those punitive units was crimes? You heil them as veterans. You should cheers them holding cute puppy flags at least it would be honest.
My grand grandfather died defending Leningrad, my grandmother was brought to Germany to serve as a fucking slave, and you know what? i don't give a shit. It happened fucking 70 years ago and people are still butthurt.Its just show your ignorance and indifference i am sorry for you.
Ok. No more politic and history as part of politics. Just funny to read comments of average europeans about hundrets millions victims executed civilians by Stalin personally! They sure about it, even if they never tried to make sure to check if its true... As i stated before all archieves are awialble to research! But who cares... They have opinion and thats enough... In best case some even read some book with catchy name! :)You, good Sir, are an ignorant of epic proportions.
You, good Sir, are an ignorant of epic proportions.Thank you, your opinion is so important for me.
Lol Firebrand just for you I visited this website http://greatstalin.ru Sadly english version is not working but even from the name you can see that its a pro-Stalin site. Main slogan is "Learn the TRUTH about Great Stalin". I regards of repressions it says:Btw interesting article. 2 million convicted people for conterrevolutionary crimes... How much of those people was guilty in crimes? And how much of them was innocent(main question)? How much of them was executed? How much of them returned home during Stalin rule? How much of them released after Stalin death? Still no evidences of millions EXECUTED INNOCENT people.(click to show/hide)
"All in all we have more or less unbiased number of convicted for counterrevolutionary crimes during Stalin rule - 2 319 516 people. Their tragic fate have the right for special attention. That is because among them was justly and unjustly convicted. And this tragically a fact. Is it many or not? At least its not tens of millions, by which "democrats" are trying to scare us."
2 fucking millions, is the amount of people killed in you beloved meatgrinder called Stalingrad battle. Hail Stalin!
...
Btw interesting article. 2 million convicted people for conterrevolutionary crimes... How much of those people was guilty in crimes? And how much of them was innocent(main question)? How much of them was executed? How much of them returned home during Stalin rule? How much of them released after Stalin death? Still no evidences of millions EXECUTED INNOCENT people.
Btw do you know how much millions people are sitting in prisons in america? How much of them unguilty? How much of them sentenced to execution?
Who the fuck in this thread cares about America? This is not about America man. We never said we supported USA, dont change the subject now. Again one quite usual communist trait is to to talk about America all the time and how EEEEEVIIL it is. Right now, who cares really? ]Oh man its just example... I mean every country has people who sitting in prisons. I am not sure but i think here in Russia now sitting more people than during Stalins rule. At least if we count ratio of numbers of sitting peaple to numbers of "free". You know i mean...(Just don't know how to say right in english...)
These facts and everything about Soviet Unions crimes do not come from West. These come from all the people that lived trough it. Your facts come from hugely in denial warveterans and bribed people. Why do you seriuslly think we despise Soviet Union like we do? If it wouldnt have been so horrible and simply Western propaganda we wouldnt hate it as much. USA and other more distant countries would, cause they wouldnt know jack about what really goes on. But we would.
Shit....now this discussion is running in circles again. Serves us right for trying to convice eachother over the internet. Never works.... I suppose one of us is wrong. Eventually im pretty sure we find out which one.......Man, i trust documents you know. I don't trust human stories or dramatic books. Stories of people who went through hard times maybe intersting and sad and true, but they never will show whole picture whats happened. Same with books people write books for some reason they can disturb any facts in favor of their opinion, not to mention movies, TV and papers. I don't believe them! But documents in archieves can tell you the truth, pure truth without any politic influence! i wish all thinking people do this!
! THose "veterans" served in 19 th and 20 th SS divisions, they murdered civilians, burned villages in belorussia, they was brats who killed even their own citizens: jews!
(click to show/hide)
Lol documents in archives can be just as easily manipulated as any other historical source. Who wrote them? What were they for? Were they potentially changed/edited in any way? Were they censored? Not to mention the fact that new documents ect are being discovered constantly in the oddest of places.All these documents were for inside usage of NKVD and other needs. They wasnt supposed to be ever available to the public. They wre unveiled not long ago during massive anti-soviet actions in our country durin Yeltsin rule. Noone edit or hide all these shitloads of dusty papers, lol barley even many ppl bother to read them... You know its boring... Better take some book with catchy name read it and think that you know all shit about it. Or even better not to read book but find some "witness" and listen his cool story, ah, and even more easy is to watch some intersting movie which tell you the truth for sure. All those documents you can compare with other sources and known facts and in the end you will get more or less objective picture. But why bother to do it? Its always easy to believe in things that believe majority among you. Without any odd questions.
'All thinking people' as you put them so nicely would look at all these sources as a whole and try to understand the over all picture that way. Not just pick and choose and believe that just because a document is 'official' or stored in a fancy archive that it makes it true.
All these documents were for inside usage of NKVD and other needs. They wasnt supposed to be ever available to the public. They wre unveiled not long ago during massive anti-soviet actions in our country durin Yeltsin rule. Noone edit or hide all these shitloads of dusty papers, lol barley even many ppl bother to read them... You know its boring... Better take some book with catchy name read it and think that you know all shit about it. Or even better not to read book but find some "witness" and listen his cool story, ah, and even more easy is to watch some intersting movie which tell you the truth for sure. All those documents you can compare with other sources and known facts and in the end you will get more or less objective picture. But why bother to do it? Its always easy to believe in things that believe majority among you. Without any odd questions.You have to be a real historian, man. So impressive that you have actually read all those files from the mighty archive you're talking about... I am really impressed. Especially since the Russian government is known for its cooperation with the public when it comes to former official documents, they are really outgoing that way. That is so cool...
All these documents were for inside usage of NKVD and other needs. They wasnt supposed to be ever available to the public. They wre unveiled not long ago during massive anti-soviet actions in our country durin Yeltsin rule. Noone edit or hide all these shitloads of dusty papers, lol barley even many ppl bother to read them... You know its boring... Better take some book with catchy name read it and think that you know all shit about it. Or even better not to read book but find some "witness" and listen his cool story, ah, and even more easy is to watch some intersting movie which tell you the truth for sure. All those documents you can compare with other sources and known facts and in the end you will get more or less objective picture. But why bother to do it? Its always easy to believe in things that believe majority among you. Without any odd questions.
Seriously, I wrote my dissertation based from archival research and my sister is an archivist by profession. In that I used newspapers, census data, personal letters, parliamentary meeting records, company financial records ect all dating from the 1800's. I would have failed my dissertation if I didn't use varying sources. I know just how boring it can be, how frustrating it is when information doesn't match up. But equally it's worth it when you turn up gems of information. As others have laughed at, I doubt you yourself have gone and looked at such records.Of course they edited every single document, every single note, act and so on. I am sure they erased real numbers and write false ones! Yes they destroyed documents... Common you know history. After Stalin died new government was interested to unveil Stalins crimes and to keep evidences! It was Khruschev(or whatever his surname in english). Yes and all these numbers are known to those who wants to know. These numbers are accepted liberals in Russia. There is organisation here in russia "Memorial" they managed to search all victims of repressions. They research peaople their fate, their families and so on. To make government pay reparations to every victim. They made rehersals in archieves, documents, lists, asking witness... And you know what? According their data for 1921-1953 was sentenced to execution about 700 000 men, including criminals, terrorists, traitors, spies and others. Yes its big number. But could it be other way in that time? Civil war, ww2? Yes there was disidents but how much of them among all criminals and traitors? Who knows... But defintly NOT MILLIONS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE BY STALIN HIMSELF!
Where do you think many of those books with catchy names get the research for their books any how? Much of it is archival. Any historian worth an inch will have done some fairly extensive first hand archival research, particularly if they are writing a book and often they will list their sources in a referenced bibliography, meaning you yourself can go and back check it if you like. I did all that and that was for an undergraduate University dissertation for christ sakes.
Finally, you think NKVD documents are going to be open and plain truthed and 100% correct? It wouldn't surprise me if fuck loads of them had been destroyed previously or if they had strict measures for what they actually recorded. Most Government institutions are very careful about what they record on paper regardless of whether they are private documents or public. Unfortunately for us they aren't always stupid. That is why variety in sources is so important, including books as background research and witness statements as well. Anything can be a source of information in history, and you have to look at them all to try and gain a full picture.
Basic historical research methods lesson over for you.
I never said that you're a communist. My first impression of you was that you're american. I know you have been following me, downvoting my every post. Never seen russian doing that...Sorry man. I minused only posts i was disagree with. It was pretty stupid of me. Should post answers instead. But was too lazy. And i didn't tracked your posts lol... I just used "unreaded posts" forum function...
Ye gods, i believe i may have gotten more out of this thread than i bargained for :lol:
Ahahahah.. it's just lol. I am not communist at all, even if i am russian! :D"What I am saying is look, you know communists like to blur the true opposition to communism, they like to call everyone who opposes them fascists..." - Slavoj Zizek
And i don't try to make Stalin innocent! But listen tales about hundred millions of murdered people its really funny! I don't care if it's "western propaganda" legacy of dr. Goebbels, or naiveness, or deliberate slander... but it definitly funny!
"What I am saying is look, you know communists like to blur the true opposition to communism, they like to call everyone who opposes them fascists..." - Slavoj Zizek
Anyone who doesn't agree on 20 million people is denying genocide. Anyone who agrees with 20 million is naive. Anyone who thinks that Stalin is responsible for more than 20 million is likely to be correct.
"What I am saying is look, you know communists like to blur the true opposition to communism, they like to call everyone who opposes them fascists..." - Slavoj ZizekEmpty words. As always. No proves, no evidences, no documents, nothing but catchy numbers and catchy words!
Anyone who doesn't agree on 20 million people is denying genocide. Anyone who agrees with 20 million is naive. Anyone who thinks that Stalin is responsible for more than 20 million is likely to be correct.
Empty words. As always. No proves, no evidences, no documents, nothing but catchy numbers and catchy words!Guess what? Right back at you!
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
dr. Goebbels - the teacher of modern propaganda systems!
Go believe lies they feed you. Do not even try to find out the truth to break delusions! Its always easier to live in ingorance and let others think for you! :rolleyes:
Guess what? Right back at you!If you have nothing more to say better keep silence. You have only empty words without any evidences of millions innocent executed people, I am sure you didn't even tried to find out real numbers. Why? Its better to believe in things, and its very pleasing and it matching to your opinion. I don't blame you...
It does take a special kind of moron to believe that you alone live in some sort of enlightened bubble of information.Why you keep posting showing your ignorance? Is it your butthurt make you post bullcrap? What KGB documents are you talking about? "Death lists"... If you mean NKVD documents so i did read them, and not only me, but any person who want to find out truth. "Regional quotas"? Not sure what u mean. But yes i read lists of prisoners in camps. And yes i can show you numbers of them in any camp for any year in range of 1921-1953. I can show you ignorant boy whole number of prisoners of Gulag system for every year! More of that i can show you percent of deaths in those camps for every year! But does it matter for you and your rigid and narrow mind? Nah i don't think so. You will still scream on right and on left your pathetic words. All these numbers are confirmed by human rights organization about victims of repressions. You can find in sources each camp, its history, numbers of prisoners and personal. Not only camp but ИТК, поселения и прочие учреждения. Go and see it yourself.
I could probably look up the KGB documents with the actual "death lists" and regional "repression quotas", but, nah, you're not worth the bother.
Why you keep posting showing your ignorance? Is it your butthurt make you post bullcrap? What KGB documents are you talking about? "Death lists"... If you mean NKVD documents so i did read them, and not only me, but any person who want to find out truth. "Regional quotas"? Not sure what u mean. But yes i read lists of prisoners in camps. And yes i can show you numbers of them in any camp for any year in range of 1921-1953. I can show you ignorant boy whole number of prisoners of Gulag system for every year! More of that i can show you percent of deaths in those camps for every year! But does it matter for you and your rigid and narrow mind? Nah i don't think so. You will still scream on right and on left your pathetic words. All these numbers are confirmed by human rights organization about victims of repressions. You can find in sources each camp, its history, numbers of prisoners and personal. Not only camp but ИТК, поселения и прочие учреждения. Go and see it yourself.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
I just want to point out that since ~1922 there was no Russia. There was USSR, and you're probably using their population number. Because if so, how otherwise is it possible that in 1951 Russia had 180 million population, and currently there are barely 140 mln? What happened during those 60 years?Those numbers is from wiki. I meant Soviet Union of course.
Also you say that there were no NKVD divisions behind army lines during battle of stalingrad. Well, I'd argue, but sadly I can't find any more sources on this thing, not even in the internet. It just seems logical to me that already politics-controlled army would have some "motivational" units. And I didn't say Germans didn't had the same units, just that their morale was higher, so they didn't needed to make their soldiers fear commanders more than the enemy, unlike soviets, who had problems with deserters. Lets not forget that 1/4 of 6th army front-line were Hiwi's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_(volunteer)), as Anthony Beevor estimates.
And don't quote russian quotes and don't send me to russian pages, I don't speak this language :lol:
[...]Estimated 3.1 million PoW in soviet camps. About 1.1 million killed... but yea, most were released I guess :rolleyes:
Note: Except military criminals, most of german POWs have been returned back home to Germany. That terrible was soviet regime! :rolleyes:
[...]
About 1.1 million killed...Source please.
At least there are no records of Russians performing experiments on their POW like most axis countries did.Most axis? I know about Germans did it but mainly on the Jews. PoW were mostly there to work in harsh conditions.
At least there are no records of Russians performing experiments on their POW like most axis countries did.Yeah, they didn't need POWs for that. Neither they needed an excuse such as "science" to do that.
Actually in soviet camp there was not so bad conditions for POWs: nutritional standards was equal to nutritional standards of Red Army during war. Of course percent of deaths was high especially in 1943. When german soldiers died mostly during way to camp. They were depleted, lot of epidemics - Stalingrad pocked was cruel experience. But month to month % of death reduces quickly. Soviet government wasn't interested to kill POWs. They was used to rebuild soviet cities, and most of them returned home before 1953. After Stalin deeth herr Adenauer asked soviet government to release criminals, SS, SD, Gestapo members most POWs was released... Its germans.
All other nations: France, Austria, Spain, Holland, Denmark, Italy, Romania, Finnland, Bulgaria, England(!) and others got their "warriors" back home in first few years after war! They was released by Stalin home!
Hmmm. I have to post here now too. My Grandfather was POW in Siberia for 8 Years.Interesting story of your grandfather. I don't think that he has any reason to tell you lies!
What he told me was mostly good stuff: They always had enough to eat and were treated really good (WAY better then Russians in German camps). Of course often prisoners died of diseases, but not due the lack of food. Just because many of them were ill and weak already before.
Also one thing he told me especially gave me something to think about (I know some of you may not believe that or whatever, but I have NO DOUBT this is true, because I trust my grandfather):
One day some of the Russian prisoner-guards beated some prisoner brutally, he already was on the ground and they kept beating him (I don´t know the reason). A Russian officer advanced in a jeep (he had seen it from some other spot in the camp) and asked whom of the guard started this, as one of them said he started beating the prisoner the officer immediately took out his pistol and shot him in the head. The officer told them that he won´t tolerate torture or beating of prisoners without any exception and that he will punish every soldier who still does that with death.
Of course, my grandfather may have been "lucky" and there were much worse camps (I don´t even doubt that).
They also had German doctors in that camp who checked most prisoners regularly.
Most axis?
Finland didn't get all the pows back after the war. Soviet Union even denied that there were any Finnish pows left. Finland kept asking for those still missing and Soviet Union released some of them 10 years after the war. The pows that got returned were just skin and bones. Those released also reported that other Finns were still in the camps. They were never returned.It could be finns who fought in waffen-SS divisions and were accussed in war crimes. I am not sure. But most of finnish soldiers were released very soon after war. I have to say about Finland-USSR relations. Despite winter war, and that finns participated in Leningrad blockade, there was kinda silent agreement between two countries. Finns didn't let wehrmacht to march through their land, and finns didn't advanced too far as n/azis wanted them. In late war finns even declared war to germany lapland war. So after war USSR allowed to keep independence to Finnland without any attempts to sovietization. I think finns was very smart and farsighted nation to live in peace with Soviet Russia.
The US-army changed the status of german pow to def (disarmed enemy forces), so they had not to fullfill the geneva gonvention..
Officially 3.000 - 10.000 german pow died in camps of the western allies, while unofficially it has been 800.000 - 1.000.000. The german government has denied every request to allow digging for the supposed corpses so far..
Pictures I have found:News paper article: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13736816/Eisenhowers-DeathCamps-September-1989-Saturday-Night(click to show/hide)
A book on the matter: http://archive.org/details/Other_Losses