cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cris on December 06, 2012, 09:22:50 pm

Title: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 06, 2012, 09:22:50 pm
Well, is it?

When compared to damage and accuracy of other ranged played styles and the quality of build at high levels, the limitations of it might just surprise you... and remember, the whole point of horse archery is the ability of shooting off horseback "at speed".

Please note: We are looking at a class, not at good people that still use it well - melee players as skilled as the best Horse Archers will beat you on a melee  fight in peasant gear, dear I say even at peasant levels - it doesn't mean peasant gear is overpowered, it just means they are good


Well, there are two main builds at attainable levels:


The damage build: 18 strength and 21 agility
                                                                   --> This build lets you have PD6 and use nicer bows (great for strat if you don't like yumi), get riding 7 for the best horse, 7 weapon master and 3 Horse Archery.

The accurate build: 15 strength and 24 agility
                                                                  --> 5PD, but it allows an extra point in riding, and most importantly 4 horse archery and 8 weapon master.
                                                                       This is a big damage and bow limitation tradeoff.

You all know that Horse Archery damage is really low, PD6 HAs still take several shots to kill you, and PD5 HAs like myself will take an insane amount of shots to kill someone in any kind of good gear, even with loomed arrows and bow. Most of you will good armor and good memories will be aware of this fact.

Obviously, any mounted range is very annoying if you aren't ranged, and Horse archers should not be as deadly and accurate as foot archers.


Nevertheless, look at this example.

Level 32 Build

4 Horse Archery
172 archery (132 points after -40 penalty from 4HA_
5 Power Draw
Riding 8
4 Power strike (irrelevant, but if you needed to know where the spare points were, they are here :-P)

Champion courser
MW horn bow.


Please note: This is the accurate build, so you would expect some measure of accuracy from a level 32 dedicated horse archer.


Screenshots at speed.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Video: Look at reticule





Does it look really balanced to you?


I believe that as a class horse archery is severely unbalanced. A dedicated class, any class, should be able to be good at something at high levels.

Horse archers right now:

- Can only be really accurate with a high damage build if you slow down greatly before shooting
- Lack decent/balanced accuracy if opted for a more accurate build
- Pay masses of upkeep, due to the high upkeep for arrows design to balance upkeep payment for foot archers, who run very cheap overall gear.
- Have a -10WPP penalty for using the very same skill that is design to make players better at shooting on a horse (horse archery is supposed to reduce mounted penalty [-20% stats], for total reduction you need 10HA points.
- Do not receive speed bonus for arrows shot (last i checked), but are affected by speed bonus against us.
- Thanks to the HA WPP penalty, HAs load bows much slower.


Once again, I totally agree that mounted ranged are annoying, and obviously HA should not be as accurate at speed as archers on the floor. But right now the class is really underpowered.

The fix to test that I propose is the elimination of the Horse Archery -10 wpp penalty, it hurts accuracy, it sucks for siege and strat, when horses are not used, and it also goes against the very point of the HA skill.

Discuss and thanks for reading
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 06, 2012, 09:29:21 pm
not sure I have a strong opinion one way or another (or not that I care to share at this point), but I think your problem may be that you're riding a courser as a horse archer, and you only have 4 PD.  Yes you have 4 HA skill, but you're riding a fucking loomed courser (aka fastest horse in the game) so of course your accuracy is going to be diminished (the faster you go, the less accurate you become).

Try using an arabian warhorse, it's the best horse in the game (if you are willing to sacrifice strength to get the agility you need to ride it).  I say this as someone who rides a champion courser (but isn't trying to shoot projectiles from the fastest horse in the game).

Also for the weakness argument, you only have 4 PD...so that's part of the issue, not just the lack of speed bonus. 

Does someone know the exact damage nerf you get from shooting on horseback?  Is it the same percent of reduced damage you get from melee from horseback?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 06, 2012, 09:31:41 pm
Im up for any form of HA buff, this class has suffered  nerfs after nerfs which werent even justified.

Nerfing a class just because a minority of players are doing great at it is stupid. (and it made me and many people rage quit Horse archery when the last patch reduced HA skill effectivness).



Also for the weakness argument, you only have 4 PD...so that's part of the issue, not just the lack of speed bonus. 


He said he has 5 PD.


EDIT: i would totally go back horse archery if it was returned to its old state (before the last patchs-nerfs)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Oggrinsky on December 06, 2012, 09:34:07 pm
Yeah man, speak that Truth.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 06, 2012, 09:57:14 pm
My bad, didn't see the 5 PD, mis-read the post.  HA's do seem relatively weak, but I think they should be weaker than a foot archer...

That being said, I think that Horse Archery should not lower WPF in archery (I didn't realize it did, that's pretty ridiculous, especially considering PD lowers WPF (or used to) and the whole point of HA skill is to INCREASE accuracy...

So maybe I'm also not understanding that point
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Akynos on December 06, 2012, 10:08:05 pm
Problem with HA isn't the balance, it's the hate. Anyone who isn't HA will hate that class for what it is.
I think the problem with multiplayer warband is that we still use classes that were meant for single player. HA is one of them.
Result = Nerf HA until no one is willing to pick it up. Sure, HA is underpowered. But the majority of players will stand against a buff, and I am one of them.

Solution? Don't use HA if you want to be effective. Take mainstream classes such as 1h or 2h. I hate to kill variety over balance, but a tradeoff is unfortunately needed in this mod.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Macropus on December 06, 2012, 10:19:07 pm
Horse archers need some love. Buff them!
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Teeth on December 06, 2012, 10:21:32 pm
Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 06, 2012, 10:24:42 pm
Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.
what about Horse xbow men? they are more effective in anyway compared to HA and get double the hate. Not a really good logic you got there!
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Teeth on December 06, 2012, 10:26:50 pm
what about Horse xbow men? they are more effective in anyway compared to HA and get double the hate. Not a really good logic you got there!
I said mounted ranged, all inclusive. Horse crossbowmen are too strong. they should all be below viable. Atleast HX can't ride around you spraying arrows though, there is more time to get to cover.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 06, 2012, 10:30:26 pm
I said mounted ranged, all inclusive. Horse crossbowmen are too strong. they should all be below viable. Atleast HX can't ride around you spraying arrows though, there is more time to get to cover.
Yeah horse archer shoot twice as much... with half of the arrows bouncing of armors compared to HX who make a full hit each time and have pin point accuracy.
But i agree that Horse crossbowmen need balancing, one way or another.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: peter_afca7 on December 06, 2012, 10:30:54 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tore on December 06, 2012, 10:31:21 pm
im in that video
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 06, 2012, 10:33:50 pm
I agree with Teeth in that HA and HX should not be good, and only attract those that actually like the gameplay of those classes. We have enough people that play to spoil the fun of others as it is.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: San on December 06, 2012, 10:35:45 pm
We know. That's at speed, too, and hopefully the ranged speed bonus can be fixed for that. I don't support any direct tweaks except for wpf penalty. I think it would be balanced for HA to be more speed-based-  do better damage at speed and close up, and poorer damage when moving away (and imo when barely moving, but good accuracy).

For people dealing with HA, they can simply trot behind you or to your side the entire round and shoot at you. If you loom bow and arrows for quantity over quality, you could very well carry over 80 arrows.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Latvian on December 06, 2012, 10:51:32 pm
what is more important is that phase retired at lvl 34 :D as it shows in screenshots
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 06, 2012, 10:53:23 pm
That being said, I think that Horse Archery should not lower WPF in archery (I didn't realize it did, that's pretty ridiculous, especially considering PD lowers WPF (or used to) and the whole point of HA skill is to INCREASE accuracy...

So maybe I'm also not understanding that point

When you are mounted you start out with a big penalty. Each point in horse archery decreases the penalties, so I guess Cris just took the net. So if he had less in horse archery, he would have a bigger penalty.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 06, 2012, 10:55:39 pm
I agree with Teeth in that HA and HX should not be good, and only attract those that actually like the gameplay of those classes. We have enough people that play to spoil the fun of others as it is.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: IR_Kuoin on December 06, 2012, 10:57:46 pm
I've wanted a HA buff since 2011 :(
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Callan on December 06, 2012, 11:00:00 pm
HA hurts my anus.

Its also the bane of my 39/3 STF characters existance :P

But they can do with a iccle bit of a buff though.

(PLUS check out my sexy sig and avatar) xD
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Falka on December 06, 2012, 11:07:40 pm
We have enough people that play to spoil the fun of others as it is.

Yeah, e.g. pikers and long spear users
 
for being a selfish dick, you  they should get the effectivity of a stone

8-)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 06, 2012, 11:17:20 pm
Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.

Tbh I dont have HAs when Im on alts (both melee and foot archer). You can shoot HAs at range, you can kill them easily in small map, you easily dodge arrows, and the most simple of solutions, use a shield.

I am not asking for 1 shot kills, or headshots across the map. Right now, a HA at speed is lucky to shoot at a target 2 meters away, that is just wrong.



May I add, I have been killed by a high str thrower with mw stones in less shots that I killed him :-P
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Taser on December 06, 2012, 11:23:04 pm
Oh please. HA's need some love. He's not even asking that much in the OP. He's just asking for a minor nerf to be removed that would substantially help accuracy. Its not even a damage boost, its just accuracy. HA's need that badly.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 06, 2012, 11:32:37 pm
All I can say is +1. Remove the -10 wpf penalty.
Damage is fine, most people who complain are the ones who I see chasing a HA which is just their own fault.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Pentecost on December 07, 2012, 01:07:00 am
I support this change, even though I dislike horse archery and the people who use it as a playstyle.

From the standpoint of game balance, the weakest class that wasn't explicitly a joke/gimmick build before the recent changes to archery was a high strength (27+) foot archer; now that strength archery is viable in its own way though, that title probably belongs to horse archers. There is currently very little reason to be a horse archer rather than a horse crossbow, unless you are a masochist or want to roleplay being a mongol that much, because, as a class, horse crossbow has better performance in nearly every area and is easier to play as well. Anyone who has spent time with both can confirm this.

Like everyone else, I really don't want to see horse archers two-shotting people while flying across the battlefield with the speed and maneuverability of an F-22, but I would not be against throwing them a bone as long as it remains a difficult class to earn kills with and doesn't become the new flavor of the month.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Prpavi on December 07, 2012, 01:07:56 am
if buffed, im going HA, fuck you all ahaha!

should all do the same, mod would be lovely
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Dach on December 07, 2012, 01:17:09 am
Anyone remember the Santa_Squad?  :lol:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Callan on December 07, 2012, 01:21:02 am
Anyone remember the Santa_Squad?  :lol:

Nope, But we really need the santa hats (or an updated/modified version) put back into the item shop since its only 18 days untill christmas.

I'm gonna be rolling with my christmas hat and elf gear.

Booya!
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 07, 2012, 01:23:51 am
Buff HA?  :rolleyes: This is the most obnoxious class in the game. You don't need to shoot at speed when you can play like a kiting archer on steroids. You just park yourself a few metres away from enemies and pewpew. They really shine when theres few players, or if they manage to survive until towards the end of the round, then they can rape if they play their class well

Imagine there is no horse..you want a archer that zips around like with a speedhack and shoots accurately? How about no.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Latvian on December 07, 2012, 01:42:19 am
how come black_corsair_RS  does not complain? he always seems to shoot me on high speed and pretty accurate and pretty painfuly.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 01:43:09 am
Buff HA?  :rolleyes: This is the most obnoxious class in the game. You don't need to shoot at speed when you can play like a kiting archer on steroids. You just park yourself a few metres away from enemies and pewpew. They really shine when theres few players, or if they manage to survive until towards the end of the round, then they can rape if they play their class well

Imagine there is no horse..you want a archer that zips around like with a speedhack and shoots accurately? How about no.

Yet you're not taking into consideration the damage HAs do and also we can't really sit next to enemies when there is Archers, Xbow men and also as a HA you're always getting chased by other cav.

Of course a HA is going to shine late on in a round, but whos fault is that? It's not the HAs. It's melee guys fault if they're not getting cover/camping it out till the flags come up.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Malaclypse on December 07, 2012, 03:57:06 am
Courser is a really bad choice for a horse archer, even if you have 5 Horse Archery. You actually WANT slower horses as they affect the reticule much less. Steppe, Desert, Arabian, or any of the armored horses are perfect.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 07, 2012, 04:40:34 am
Courser is a really bad choice for a horse archer, even if you have 5 Horse Archery. You actually WANT slower horses as they affect the reticule much less. Steppe, Desert, Arabian, or any of the armored horses are perfect.

Wrong. Ride a slow horse, get destroyed by normal cavalry as they shrug off your pea shooter, because they will catch you and before you can put 4-5 arrows into their horse or 6-8 arrows into them. Sumpter, Steppe, and Desert you are just asking to be ridden down. Arabian? Sure, but only until you run out of gold because archer + cavalry = most expensive class in game.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Malaclypse on December 07, 2012, 04:51:28 am
Wrong. Ride a slow horse, get destroyed by normal cavalry as they shrug off your pea shooter, because they will catch you and before you can put 4-5 arrows into their horse or 6-8 arrows into them. Sumpter, Steppe, and Desert you are just asking to be ridden down. Arabian? Sure, but only until you run out of gold because archer + cavalry = most expensive class in game.

Wait, am I wrong about Courser being a really bad choice for mounted ranged due to the effect of velocity on accuracy?

Stick with the infantry if you have sustainability trouble then, what I usually do on my pea shooter anyhow- just float around their flanks, if it gets too hot weave into the mass. The Desert and Steppe horse also both have pretty phenomenal maneuver (I wouldn't really recommend a Sumpter horse for anything.. ever), meaning that while a lancer on a typical Destrier or Courser may be able to catch up to you in terms of speed, if you're at all aware of them they can easily be avoided. Also, you didn't mention anything at all about armored horses! Personally I think they are the best choice available for mounted ranged due to the fact that you'll be able to sustain more harassment from bad ranged and melee who aim for your mount rather than you and can use the horse as a weapon in addition to your projectiles.

As for the money, yeah that might be an issue if you're just starting out in the mod, but come on, if you've been playing for more than 6 months and you're still broke that's your own fault, it's pretty easy to make and save money, even more so if you sell your loom points. A good night of playing in cloth armor with a medium tier weapon brings me in 40k+ easily, which I send to my cav playing or heavy armor asshole alts. You just have to be willing to not wear the most expensive crap all the time.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 07, 2012, 04:58:40 am
Lancers are a minority on servers nowadays. 2 handed cavalry especially will just eat you up.

Easy to make money? Sure, every class I've played OTHER than archer RAKES in the gold. Horse Archer?

Ragged Outfit
Hide Boots
Tatar bow
NORMAL arrows
Yanmadao
Steppe horse

That is my break even build. As a foot archer I get to upgrade to Tatar arrows in stead of a horse!

Where in the hell is all this expensive gear you are talking about??

Oh yeah, I'm not selling my loom points or being forced into retirement just to maintain average gear in my chosen class.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Malaclypse on December 07, 2012, 05:44:05 am
I said Cloth armor with a medium tier weapon, not Leather Armor with two of em, arrows, and a horse, man. Also it's pretty strange that you're only breaking even on that loadout, seems like it's just bad luck now that I look at the actual max upkeep for it.

HA is an expensive class, definitely not for 1st gen players, but what I'm saying is that it really requires minimal commitment to raise money. Note that I'm saying it's easy to make money- I didn't say it was easy to make it for Horse Archers in full loadout (just like it's not easy for two-handers in full heavy armor to do so), just that it's easy to make it and then send to your cav characters to be eaten up. What you do- what I do- is play with a loadout that makes me money, then send it to characters that require cash money millionaires to play. Pelt Coat + Qstaff will net you a good chunk of change from a single night of play, and is a lot of fun to boot.

Also, I should mention that I personally think upkeep is a really dumb way to balance things, but unless someone comes up with a better way to balance Cav, Ranged, Infantry, Ranged Cav- entirely different classes with vastly different mechanics and playstyles- it's what we have, and it's easy to get around with a small amount of work. If it were up to me there'd be no upkeep, no heirlooms, no gold at all.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 07, 2012, 08:39:33 am
but only until you run out of gold because archer + cavalry = most expensive class in game.
lol no, anything with a plated charger and plate=most expensive thing ingame, And my horsethrower was way more expensive than any HA not ridding an armored horse.

Buff ht please.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leesin on December 07, 2012, 08:54:39 am
My main is HA and sure it definitely is underpowered stats wise but I don't really care because I can still make people rage. I use MW Horn Bow and MW Tatar arrows with 5PD, definitely takes some hits to kill but I ride a Destrier for a reason, it's tough and also a great weapon to smash Infantry with. It still has fairly good speed, enough for me to evade and shoot other cav and vs other HA, especially at longer ranges, it is a godsend as it takes them quite a few arrows to kill it where as most times I can easily kill their weak little horse then close the distance to finish them or just leave them in the middle of no where to go and annoy the rest of their team.

 I'm often high on the team scoreboard when I do play and I hardly play anymore, so HA is definitely effective, even if you can wound a ton of enemies and get 0 kills, you've helped the team toward victory. I can go and dismount most of their cavalry and I've already taken an advantage away from them without getting any kills.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Macropus on December 07, 2012, 10:06:10 am
how come black_corsair_RS  does not complain? he always seems to shoot me on high speed and pretty accurate and pretty painfuly.
That only means Corsair is one of the best horse archers, so his performance is good despite of HA as a class being underpowered.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Prpavi on December 07, 2012, 10:27:14 am
All you HA crying ybout repairs, maybe you should think about that when delaying rounds till the very end upping everybodys chance of repairs including yours.   :wink:

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Ujin on December 07, 2012, 11:25:46 am
 I would only support a HA buff ( and they deserve it)  if the damage that arrows do to heavy horses is reduced. Someone is supposed to hunt the HA down for you, infantry .
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Macropus on December 07, 2012, 11:35:16 am
All you HA crying ybout repairs, maybe you should think about that when delaying rounds till the very end upping everybodys chance of repairs including yours.   :wink:
WTF. The problem is that repairs cost more for HA than for most other players, how come that linked with upping the chance of repairs for everyone?
I would only support a HA buff ( and they deserve it)  if the damage that arrows do to heavy horses is reduced. Someone is supposed to hunt the HA down for you, infantry .
Agree, horse archers aren't supposed to do much damage to tincans IMO.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on December 07, 2012, 12:28:12 pm
I agree with you that horse archers seem to be underpowered (never played one myself). But like leesin said, even in their underpowered state they can be very effective and a decisive factor in a battle.

All the weaknesses of current HA has still it's counter in their ultimate kiting ability. From the perspective of any non ranged infantry you can't actively do anything to hurt mounted ranged, you can only hope for a mistake while he at the same can damage you. This unique bonus justify the weak stats, imo.

Also if the timing is perfect charging a single enemy and shooting him directly before the bump is very powerful, ofc. can result in a mistake...
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Shaksie on December 07, 2012, 12:31:18 pm
I agree with this! Buff HA!
Also, I think the perspective should be fixed; arrows fired should not travel at the exact angle and direction that you were at when you shot it due to momentum etc.
Similarly, having something hurled toward you at speed from a horse which is also at speed would greatly increase the damage; I think this should (to a degree) be added.

Finally, I know this is quite likely a solution with very many flaws but reducing horse upkeep could slightly reduce HA penalty in that they would be more inclined to using a horse that has four legs and two eyes.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Pejlaen on December 07, 2012, 12:47:48 pm
you have to consider the tactical edge HAs can have as well, I agree that they should be buffed though
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: pingpong on December 07, 2012, 02:38:47 pm
Useless class, people who play HA should uninstall this game.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Arrowblood on December 07, 2012, 03:01:10 pm
Useless class, people who play HA should uninstall this game.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Torben on December 07, 2012, 03:16:00 pm
Im up for any form of HA buff, this class has suffered  nerfs after nerfs which werent even justified.

Nerfing a class just because a minority of players are doing great at it is stupid. (and it made me and many people rage quit Horse archery when the last patch reduced HA skill effectivness).


He said he has 5 PD.


EDIT: i would totally go back horse archery if it was returned to its old state (before the last patchs-nerfs)

bring back old HA and old lancing,  two classes that balanced eachother out splendidly!!!^^1121one
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 04:20:39 pm
how come black_corsair_RS  does not complain? he always seems to shoot me on high speed and pretty accurate and pretty painfuly.
Yeah if he starts complaining i would feel sorry for him...fully looms and lvl 33+ HA and still ineffective, that would suprise me.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 04:24:51 pm
the point is HA doesnt have any real counter, if you make it in any way more powerful or effective you will just shorten the average lifespan of HA victims
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 04:29:49 pm
the point is HA doesnt have any real counter, if you make it in any way more powerful or effective you will just shorten the average lifespan of HA victims

HA do have a counter, its called having a brain and knowing how to teamplay, especially with your teamates archers.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 07, 2012, 04:33:19 pm
Precisely why I've pretty much stopped playing crpg. HA nerf just made it useless. And along with nerfs for other classes I got tired of it.

I'd personally love to see the lance angle nerf and HA nerf reversed. They were never actually needed. Only reason HA's got even considered OP was because someone made a rage thread and then everyone went to try HA for a week or two and suddenly the servers were flooded with them and a few weeks later NERF.

HA is horrendously underpowered and the blind hate of some people here is just saddening. I hate 2h, Warbows and HX but I wouldn't kick up a fuss if those were badly nerfed to UP and someone suggested rebuffing them. Fact is some people like playing HA. We enjoy it and don't appreciate our build being screwed over just because of a few ragers.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: buba on December 07, 2012, 04:33:37 pm
No counter? anyone that can throw a stick is a counter.
Really so for the 24/15 build your HP is so low, and with speed bonus you can get one shotted quite often.

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 04:35:11 pm
HA do have a counter, its called having a brain and knowing how to teamplay, especially with your teamates archers.

yeah try that with randomers...and no brain in world can help me when two HAs make up their mind to kill me, even if single one focuses me there is not much i can do, please collaborate on how "having a brain and knowing how to teamplay" helps? there are maps on which all the teamplay in the world cannot save you, as there are literally NO hiding spots, like that desert map with some small dunes
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 07, 2012, 04:39:43 pm
yeah try that with randomers...and no brain in world can help me when two HAs make up their mind to kill me, even if single one focuses me there is not much i can do, please collaborate on how "having a brain and knowing how to teamplay" helps? there are maps on which all the teamplay in the world cannot save you, as there are literally NO hiding spots, like that desert map with some small dunes

It's not even teamplay. Just by swerving from side to side you can waste all an HA's arrows. Ffs you can stop an HA with a tree. A TREE. It's not complex and it's easy to combat HA. Just people have one mind to hunt the enemy and they don't pay attention to anything around them. And you think you should survive a 2 vs 1 situation why? Just stay near your ranged and if they have a remote amount of sense they will shoot at the HA on maps like that.

Courser is a really bad choice for a horse archer, even if you have 5 Horse Archery. You actually WANT slower horses as they affect the reticule much less. Steppe, Desert, Arabian, or any of the armored horses are perfect.

Courser is a great choice. Those horses will be shot to death. Courser is fast and durable. You can slow down to shoot if needed and the extra speed means you can keep up with/out run other cav. If you are a cav hunting HA like I usually am then it's the best horse possible. Mind you it does get out performed on more technical maps. Turning rate is not great and the acceleration compared to Arabian is poor so Arabian will out run you if you have to change speeds lots. But on an open map there is nothing better than a courser.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 04:42:12 pm
It's not even teamplay. Just by swerving from side to side you can waste all an HA's arrows. Ffs you can stop an HA with a tree. A TREE. It's not complex and it's easy to combat HA. Just people have one mind to hunt the enemy and they don't pay attention to anything around them.

Courser is a great choice. Those horses will be shot to death. Courser is fast and durable. You can slow down to shoot if needed and the extra speed means you can keep up with/out run other cav. If you are a cav hunting HA like I usually am then it's the best horse possible. Mind you it does get out performed on more technical maps. Turning rate is not great and the acceleration compared to Arabian is poor so Arabian will out run you if you have to change speeds lots. But on an open map there is nothing better than a courser.

i have 7 ath and i cannot dodge to Cris or Corsair, they seem to hit with every arrow, moving side to side also makes you quite vulnerable to couches and bumps from enemies, and once you are bumped you are free targt, using a tree as argument to defend that HA are not deadly accurate and hurtful like shit? come on...

not to speak, if i go low armor, i got two or threeshotted, not to speak of bump damage, if i wear heavier, i survive three or four, but i am not able to dodge due to speed limitation off armor weight, so, what now?

and yes, i can survive even 3v1 or 4v1 if i actually get to play a little and not get shot to pieces, not saying i should, but its very likely possible (except if any of the enemies is HA/HX)


Oh and did i mention the fact unless you play hoplite even shield is useless against HA? Oh sure, i forgot. He rides on you, if you uncover yourself, you get shot, if you dont, you get bumped and shot, so, yeah, not OPed at all.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 04:48:08 pm
there are maps on which all the teamplay in the world cannot save you, as there are literally NO hiding spots, like that desert map with some small dunes
Works both ways, On city/ town maps we are pretty useless.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 04:49:07 pm
yeah try that with randomers...and no brain in world can help me when two HAs make up their mind to kill me, even if single one focuses me there is not much i can do, please collaborate on how "having a brain and knowing how to teamplay" helps? there are maps on which all the teamplay in the world cannot save you, as there are literally NO hiding spots, like that desert map with some small dunes
Ah you guys keep suprising me, basically what you said was: LOLWHAT HOW CAN A HA KILL ME IN A OPEN MAP, IM MELEE IM SUPPOSED TO BE INVISIBLE IN ANY SITUATION
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 04:49:46 pm
Ah you guys keep suprising me, basically what you said was: LOLWHAT HOW CAN A HA KILL ME IN A OPEN MAP, IM MELEE IM SUPPOSED TO BE INVISIBLE IN ANY SITUATION

as usual no argument to come back with so you just mock me, gg man, gg


Works both ways, On city/ town maps we are pretty useless.

not really, you are accurate the same on foot as on horse, if not more, if someone has it easy teamplaying then its archer, stick to guy with spear and few shielders and close range pew pew can commense (i do have archer alt)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 07, 2012, 04:52:17 pm
i have 7 ath and i cannot dodge to Cris or Corsair, they seem to hit with every arrow, moving side to side also makes you quite vulnerable to couches and bumps from enemies, and once you are bumped you are free targt, using a tree as argument to defend that HA are not deadly accurate and hurtful like shit? come on...

not to speak, if i go low armor, i got two or threeshotted, not to speak of bump damage, if i wear heavier, i survive three or four, but i am not able to dodge due to speed limitation off armor weight, so, what now?

and yes, i can survive even 3v1 or 4v1 if i actually get to play a little and not get shot to pieces, not saying i should, but its very likely possible (except if any of the enemies is HA/HX)


Oh and did i mention the fact unless you play hoplite even shield is useless against HA? Oh sure, i forgot. He rides on you, if you uncover yourself, you get shot, if you dont, you get bumped and shot, so, yeah, not OPed at all.

A tree is a worst case scenario. Fact is it's used if you are caught out on your own and you need a way to survive. But it was an example of how plenty of things can be used to block arrows. You can dodge easily with heavier armour. I've seen plenty of people do it. Spin around all over the place makes them pretty hard to shoot. Sure you may hit an arrow or two but it's not worth the effort and it's dangerous for an HA to hang around one target to long so if you start doing that there's a good chance the HA will move on.

Regardless, when it got to the point where I was getting more kills with my horse than with my bow I decided to start playing other classes more. That's how UP the bow is.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 04:54:03 pm
A tree is a worst case scenario. Fact is it's used if you are caught out on your own and you need a way to survive. But it was an example of how plenty of things can be used to block arrows. You can dodge easily with heavier armour. I've seen plenty of people do it. Spin around all over the place makes them pretty hard to shoot. Sure you may hit an arrow or two but it's not worth the effort and it's dangerous for an HA to hang around one target to long so if you start doing that there's a good chance the HA will move on.

My favourite alt is a hoplite and at the moment the class I play most when I do play crpg. So I call bullshit on that as I've never ever had a problem against HA with it. Step to the side to avoid the arrow and stab as they try the bump. Easy peasy.

Regardless, when it got to the point where I was getting more kills with my horse than with my bow I decided to start playing other classes more.

you read it wrong, i said shield is useless UNLESS you play hoplite, cause hoplite is the only class that can do something, or very, very good onehander


and bows are not UP, when i gallop same direction as HA chasing me, my horse gets shot for half HP by one arrow, non loomed courser, i got hit with like 55 body armor for 1/3-1/2 hp by the same guy, and i cannot count how many times i got shotbumped to death, so no, bow is very useful for taking away HP so the horse can finish off the rest  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 04:55:56 pm
as usual no argument to come back with so you just mock me, gg man, gg
what "argument" you said just before is used by so many people i had to respond with that, its harsh i know.

Anyway what i mean by  "having a brain and knowing how to teamplay" if i actually have to explain to you what that mean, is stick with your team in a open map, protect the ranged in general since they are the one who can reach HA at long rang, dont go in the open alone, otherwise of course you are going to get raped by not only HA, but any cav class in general.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 07, 2012, 04:57:59 pm
you read it wrong, i said shield is useless UNLESS you play hoplite, cause hoplite is the only class that can do something, or very, very good onehander


and bows are not UP, when i gallop same direction as HA chasing me, my horse gets shot for half HP by one arrow, non loomed courser, i got hit with like 55 body armor for 1/3-1/2 hp by the same guy, and i cannot count how many times i got shotbumped to death, so no, bow is very useful for taking away HP so the horse can finish off the rest  :mrgreen:

My mistake.

Half health...really?  :P Because when I'm shooting coursers it feels like it takes a good 4 arrows to take one down unless with a head shot. Destrier's are horrible from that pov.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 04:59:19 pm
what "argument" you said just before is used by so many people i had to respond with that, its harsh i know.

Anyway what i mean by  "having a brain and knowing how to teamplay" if i actually have to explain to you what that mean, is stick with your team in a open map, protect the ranged in general since they are the one who can reach HA at long rang, dont go in the open alone, otherwise of course you are going to get raped by not only HA, but any cav class in general.

been there, tried that, but recently with low pops on EU1 its very very annoying the amount of ranged cav, and not even sticking together helps in some cases, i seen how three or four HA/HXs took down like 10-12 people who sticked together, cause everytime you had to face some other way and opened up for other, the HA does not particularly need to cooperate even,but the infantry would have to be quite well coordinated to santd a chance


My mistake.

Half health...really?  :P Because when I'm shooting coursers it feels like it takes a good 4 arrows to take one down unless with a head shot. Destrier's are horrible from that pov.

yes, my horse goes down in two arrows if i manage to somehow get good speed bonus in my favor, if we go head on or meet in corner or something it takes even one arrow...

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 07, 2012, 05:00:20 pm
Buffing HA will not lead to a more fun Battle experience for the majority of players. It will give another outlet for roof camper/kiter style players, and just slow down the whole gameplay even more. A viable counter to a class shouldn't be to simply wait for flags or see who can camp longest while the ranged play their own little mini game

We will be back to square one..no point reducing archer/xbow speed and then making HA stronger
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 05:02:29 pm
Oh and did i mention the fact unless you play hoplite even shield is useless against HA? Oh sure, i forgot. He rides on you, if you uncover yourself, you get shot, if you dont, you get bumped and shot, so, yeah, not OPed at all.

Ive seen just a handfull of HA able to do that, its called training and hours of gameplay, nothing OP about that.

as usual no argument to come back with so you just mock me, gg man, gg
not really, you are accurate the same on foot as on horse, if not more, if someone has it easy teamplaying then its archer, stick to guy with spear and few shielders and close range pew pew can commense (i do have archer alt)
Have you actually played HA at all? if yes you should know that on foot you are absolutly useless, jsut a small distraction to the enemy team. You deal no dmg due to the low PD, no PS, no atlethics.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 05:03:16 pm
not really, you are accurate the same on foot as on horse, if not more, if someone has it easy teamplaying then its archer, stick to guy with spear and few shielders and close range pew pew can commense (i do have archer alt)

We have 0 alth so we can't kite. Also arrows weigh you down now so unless we drop our arrows we can't run away. Also a foot archer will or should have ps. We have none. We are horse archers not foot archers.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 07, 2012, 05:05:36 pm
Oh and did i mention the fact unless you play hoplite even shield is useless against HA? Oh sure, i forgot. He rides on you, if you uncover yourself, you get shot, if you dont, you get bumped and shot, so, yeah, not OPed at all.
Shields block even while you're not actively blocking, get a shield and l2aimitwhileattacking is for once actually an argument.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 05:06:40 pm
Ive seen just a handfull of HA able to do that, its called training and hours of gameplay, nothing OP about the class in general.

well, a handful of them is all it needs to get this noticed, and recently more and more are able to do it, when i tried HX on STF i managed to kill a few like that aswell, so not that hard id say, or i was just lucky


We have 0 alth so we can't kite. Also arrows weigh you down now so unless we drop our arrows we can't run away. Also a foot archer will or should have ps. We have none. We are horse archers not foot archers.

so you say other should be specced in some way yet tou are free to choose? you do not need PS to be effective, just some random weapn that can block and run away to safety of your team blocking, you are not forced to melee, but i am forced to get shot to pieces with no real way how to prevent it

Shields block even while you're not actively blocking, get a shield and l2aimitwhileattacking is for once actually an argument.

very easy to do, yes

Have you actually played HA at all? if yes you should know that on foot you are absolutly useless, jsut a small distraction to the enemy team. You deal no dmg due to the low PD, no PS, no atlethics.

I had, even with 5 PD and lots of WPF you are quite accurate and with bodkins even deadly, you can just HS, HS, HS and instakill pretty much. I even played archer alt 15/24 sniperlike for close combat, took a while to get a hang on it, but was fun afterwards, and quite effective due to accuracy and big dmg on close range/if target runs on you. Speedbonus is a bitch.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 07, 2012, 05:07:24 pm
Buffing HA will not lead to a more fun Battle experience for the majority of players. It will give another outlet for roof camper/kiter style players, and just slow down the whole gameplay even more. A viable counter to a class shouldn't be to simply wait for flags or see who can camp longest while the ranged play their own little mini game

We will be back to square one..no point reducing archer/xbow speed and then making HA stronger

It's not a major buff. How the hell would it slow down the play? If anything allowing HA to actually get some kills would make the game go faster.

No point keeping a class UP and stopping them from becoming a little less UP. You can't get rid of HA unless they are removed from the game. So if they are going to be included they should be able to do something.

Ive seen just a handfull of HA able to do that, its called training and hours of gameplay, nothing OP about that.

Yup and even then it's a gamble. Same as shot gunning lancers head on for speed bonus. You miss and it usually means you're dead/almost dead. Bump shooting successfully every time is also very difficult.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 05:09:56 pm
Cepeshi, what's all the fuss about? We are only asking to make us more accurate. It's not like we're asking to have more damage or more speed on our horses.

Have you played HA Cepeshi?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 07, 2012, 05:12:22 pm
Cepeshi, what's all the fuss about? We are only asking to make us more accurate. It's not like we're asking to have more damage or more speed on our horses.

Have you played HA Cepeshi?


Yes, and i say it is accurate enough, played it for like one or two gens. More and more HAs are able to focusfire me while either riding around or standing on some hill far away(i dont take em that, that takes some skill, to snipe across half map :D)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 05:22:00 pm
well, a handful of them is all it needs to get this noticed, and recently more and more are able to do it, when i tried HX on STF i managed to kill a few like that aswell, so not that hard id say, or i was just lucky
We are talking about horse archers, horse xbowmen are another story.
Anyway as a foot man i don' have much trouble with horse archers, they are so rare on Crpg1 that seeing more than 2 on the same map is suprising.
And what do you mean "to get this noticed"? notice that they are effective in an open map against couple of 2 handers and pole arms guys while beeing totally useless in any other situation? sigh...

Quote
so you say other should be specced in some way yet tou are free to choose? you do not need PS to be effective, just some random weapn that can block and run away to safety of your team blocking, you are not forced to melee, but i am forced to get shot to pieces with no real way how to prevent it
no no no, you can do that maybe as foot archer, but not as  a dehorsed HA


Quote
I had, even with 5 PD and lots of WPF you are quite accurate and with bodkins even deadly, you can just HS, HS, HS and instakill pretty much. I even played archer alt 15/24 sniperlike for close combat, took a while to get a hang on it, but was fun afterwards, and quite effective due to accuracy and big dmg on close range/if target runs on you. Speedbonus is a bitch.

Yes, 15 24 foot archer is effective,, but 1524 HA is not effective on foot, it lacks speed and PS.
"you can just HS, HS, HS and instakill pretty much." i dunno about you, but making HS in a round is not as easy as it sounds. even as a foot archer, let alone as a dehorsed HA.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Gurnisson on December 07, 2012, 05:22:28 pm
A small buff would be nice, just not too much. Buff it too much and the servers would flood with untouchable ranged units again. :P
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 07, 2012, 06:35:25 pm
You can't balance mechanics with effectivity.


Horse archers being not only invulnerable but also unavoidable for a lot of classes in a lot of scenarios is definitely a mechanics problem, especially since those classes at a disadvntage are supposed to kill every enemy, inlcuding the HA.

Lowering accuracy, damage, shot speed or other values is changing the effectivity. Which doesn't effect the mechanics mentioned above. Not at all. All the devs were doing was tweaking the attractivity of a class, lowering their effectivity to a certain level where the mechanics problem doesn't really kick in any more. Might work, but only badly, and is a terrible decision design-wise, concerning "fun" in the game. And fun is what games are about. The current solution still has less fun for the HA victims, because the same annoying mechanics are still working, like getting kited, but on the other hand the fun for the HAs is lowered as well, like having a crappy lethality.

The devs would need to either limit the mechanics of a HA (which isn't possible, I think. He MUST be riding, and he MUST be shooting from horseback while moving), or to improve the mechanics of infantry vs. HAs. Which is not impossible, but incredibly difficult. As some of you may already have expected, I again refer to the only solution I found for the problem: battle mode turns to conquest mode.

I saw a lot of wrong arguments here (use brain/teamplay to fight HAs? And how much brain and teamplay do HAs need?), but except for that one in the brackets I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer.

Yes, the HA skill is UP. No, it should not be buffed again, it wouldn't solve the general problem at all. You will have to wait and see what the WSE2 will bring, but unless the devs change something in the mechanics area, your lousy deadlyness has to stay Cris, as the "least terrible" solution we have atm.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 07, 2012, 06:52:27 pm
It's not a major buff. How the hell would it slow down the play? If anything allowing HA to actually get some kills would make the game go faster.

No point keeping a class UP and stopping them from becoming a little less UP. You can't get rid of HA unless they are removed from the game. So if they are going to be included they should be able to do something.

Yup and even then it's a gamble. Same as shot gunning lancers head on for speed bonus. You miss and it usually means you're dead/almost dead. Bump shooting successfully every time is also very difficult.

I agree with that post entirely, I almost posted something similar in the original post.

Cepeshi, I would love to see you playing HA and doing well at it, shooting while moving and topping the scores.


There is a reason I posted the videos and pictures. Taking off the WPP penalty for using HA skill will by no means what to ever make us as accurate as foot archers, not even close.

And HA do have lots of counters:

Archers, throwers (any melee can be thrower), crossbows, smart shielders... In a city map anyone can kill us...We have no defense vs ranged, and if they get us when going forward, we are killed in one shot.

Now, people say we are unfair in an open map? Well, what about looking at it the other way, HA sucks at siege, it sucks in small maps, it sucks in very hilly small maps. The penalty even applies on foot.

Certain play styles have no defense in a open situation in a one to one vs HA, that is like cav complaing that pikes kill them, or shielders saying that axes break their shields

Quote
i have 7 ath and i cannot dodge to Cris or Corsair, they seem to hit with every arrow

Please look at my video, at the end you will see a shot that goes completely to the right, if you were riding a plate charger, it would have still missed.

I dont know how people do not get this, we are not asking for a massive buff, but a tiny change which could make the class more enjoyable. It will not ruin gameplay, it will not make life horrible more horrible for unprotected melee, its a tiny change. If any melee class was half as nerfed as HA, there would be uproar in the forums

Quote
Yes, the HA skill is UP. No, it should not be buffed again...

Again? Lol ...it has never ever been buffed, ever. I've been playing for longer than most people here, so I know. It has been nerfed when targeted as a class, and it has been nerfed when archery as a whole has been nerfed. Nerf nerf on top of nerf has led us to what the class is now, a joke.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 07:10:19 pm
And thats why i never post on forums, beeing forced to respond to post like this...
There is so much flaws in this post that i dont know where to start. Ill just go point by point and try to be as brief as possible:
You can't balance mechanics with effectivity.
Horse archers being not only invulnerable but also unavoidable for a lot of classes in a lot of scenarios is definitely a mechanics problem, especially since those classes at a disadvntage are supposed to kill every enemy, inlcuding the HA.



1) The whole point of horse archery is to be able to "hit and run"; to reach this objective they need to sacrifice so much skill points that they are virtually useless in any other situation. Why call this a "mechanics problem"?  All the classes are best in certain situations, not just HA.

Quote
I saw a lot of wrong arguments here (use brain/teamplay to fight HAs? And how much brain and teamplay do HAs need?), but except for that one in the brackets I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer.

2) Of course you need the ability to adapt and cooperate to fight an enemy when he has a strategic advantage. and yes, it takes experience and teamplay to play as a HA and be effective.

Quote
Yes, the HA skill is UP. No, it should not be buffed again, it wouldn't solve the general problem at all. You will have to wait and see what the WSE2 will bring, but unless the devs change something in the mechanics area, your lousy deadlyness has to stay Cris, as the "least terrible" solution we have atm.


3)"buffed again" ha.


EDIT: i could reply to the rest of that post but "I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer." ( i loled when i read this)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on December 07, 2012, 07:35:12 pm
I've played a gen of HA on my main and a good amount on STF/alt and in my opinion it doesn't need an accuracy buff or anything, it just needs some damage normalization. What I mean by that is, a HA can 2-4shot someone with a normal build in light armour, however if that same dude wears plate suddenly it takes 10+ shots to kill them which is just ridiculous.
I tested HA damage with the common 15/24 build with a friend of mine who is 27/12 in rus scale +3, mail gauntlets +3 and an unloomed sugarloaf helm. It took me 15body hits to kill him or 5headshots on average which basically means for me there is 0 point shooting at him in a battle situation and on a +3 destrier I bet my bumps do more damage at speed than my arrows (+3 bodkins with +3 horn bow)

I don't know how you would fix this since you wouldn't want HAs killing people in str builds and heavy armour in 5 body shots, but I really think FIVE headshots to kill a dude is just retarded.

Maybe more experienced HA's feel different considering I only have probably 2gens total playing HA and even though I think i'm "ok" at it i'm nowhere near any of the good ones.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 07, 2012, 07:59:45 pm
1) The whole point of horse archery is to be able to "hit and run"; to reach this objective they need to sacrifice so much skill points that they are virtually useless in any other situation. Why call this a "mechanics problem"?  All the classes are best in certain situations, not just HA.

I said EXPLICITELY that I do NOT think that the hit and run part should be changed. And you didn't get what I meant. It's completely irrelevant how many skill points you had to spend. The mechanics was referring to styles of fighting, and horse archers are in general much more flexible in who to fight (and choosing who NOT to fight!), where to fight, when to fight and so on than most other classes. In fact they are the most flexible class in the game. Yes, they are useless when they can't do the hit and run thing, but they can do it most of the time. Not all the time, but most.

The problem is, that "hit and run" is the most effective way of fighting. It is superior to all the other playstyles in the game, which lead to that fatal nerf that took almost all of your offensive capabilities.

2) Of course you need the ability to adapt and cooperate to fight an enemy when he has a strategic advantage. and yes, it takes experience and teamplay to play as a HA and be effective.

Tell me one class which does NOT need these virtues.

Let's do it the other way around: tell me the equivalent situation for a horse archer to the following scenario: a two handed player on the open field against a horse archer.

Tell me a situation where a horse archer can NOT prevent an enemy of attacking him as long as he wants, without the horse archer being able to fight back at all.

This is what I meant with: you can't compare the need of teamplay for infantry to the need of teamplay for HAs. The extend is way too different.
 

3)"buffed again" ha.

You nerf a class, then you buff it again. It was not meant as "buffed yet another time"... but you knew it, you just wanted to bitch around  :rolleyes:


EDIT: i could reply to the rest of that post but "I refrain from answering them, as there is no point in doing so and I don't want to make the post even longer." ( i loled when i read this)

Great decision to minus someone and write a bitchy answer although that person thinks that being a HAs at the current state of the game is absolutely pointless, and the class is nerfed to oblivion, thus deserving a buff. I say: "Yes, HAs need love, but your idea is the wrong one", and you answer me "You asshole, you are dumb as shit" with an incredibly arrogant way. Seriously, I am disappointed and kind of hurt.

If there was a change to the game which rendered "hit shoot and run" less useful (note: not less effective!), I would be the first one to support a buff for HAs, both in damage and accuracy, and since the upkeep patch I was supporting to make cavalry not only playable for rich players. But since you prefer showing how stupid I am, I will take my hat and leave this topic. I hope the HA problem will be fixed soon, just for Cris, because he is a nice guy. I don't care for the rest.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 08:12:13 pm

Tell me a situation where a horse archer can NOT prevent an enemy of attacking him as long as he wants, without the horse archer being able to fight back at all.

On foot, we have no ps and no athletics. (unless high level 31+)

"without the horse archer being able to fight back at all" is a retarded thing to say. Everyone can fight back but I can guarantee 98% of the time the HA will lose is a 1v1.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 07, 2012, 08:15:09 pm
That's a bad comparison, because when a HA is on foot there already went something wrong.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 08:19:47 pm
That's a bad comparison, because when a HA is on foot there already went something wrong.

When a guy is in the middle of a field and getting shot by a HA then cries about it asking for HA to be removed and saying they are OP.
I guess something went wrong there too.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: pingpong on December 07, 2012, 08:21:10 pm
What we need is horse throwery not hoarse arsery am i right??

So reset HA and cav skills to the point before nerf, and make throwing more accurate/useful on horseback, because horse thrower/javalry is atm the only REALLY EFFECTIVE counter to HA's, that way they would remain quite balanced and we, non-homosexual normal people  wouldnt get so angry.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 07, 2012, 08:21:18 pm
When a guy is in the middle of a field and getting shot by a HA then cries about it asking for HA to be removed and saying they are OP.
I guess something went wrong there too.

Sometimes you spawn on open plain maps or have to cross open terrain. That's not the fault of the player.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 08:24:36 pm
Sometimes you spawn on open plain maps or have to cross open terrain. That's not the fault of the player.

You sir are actually retarded and ignorant.
You must really QQ when you see a HA. 
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 07, 2012, 08:24:54 pm
Regardless on the situation, there is another point: When dehorsed (which is easily done) HA still have to live the HA WPP penalty, thats another unfairness on the class.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 07, 2012, 08:28:19 pm
You sir are actually retarded and ignorant.
You must really QQ when you see a HA. 

Really great way of behaviour. Report post? Hmmm... no... just give a fuck.
Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.


Regardless on the situation, there is another point: When dehorsed (which is easily done) HA still have to live the HA WPP penalty, thats another unfairness on the class.

Agreed.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 07, 2012, 08:29:24 pm
Really great way of behaviour. Report post? Hmmm... no... just give a fuck.
Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.

Why so serious?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 07, 2012, 08:37:51 pm
Quote
You nerf a class, then you buff it again. It was not meant as "buffed yet another time"... but you knew it, you just wanted to bitch around  :rolleyes:
Actually no, i really thought you meant buff again, and it suprised me, thats why  i replied like that. What i would say is: "You nerf a class,  then you buff it" but anyway, it doesnt really matter anyway.
Quote
Great decision to minus someone and write a bitchy answer although that person thinks that being a HAs at the current state of the game is absolutely pointless, and the class is nerfed to oblivion, thus deserving a buff. I say: "Yes, HAs need love, but your idea is the wrong one", and you answer me "You asshole, you are dumb as shit" with an incredibly arrogant way. Seriously, I am disappointed and kind of hurt.
I minused your post because i didnt agree with it. And made a post which was, i agree not very friendly, to explain why i didnt agree with you. It wasent meant as an insult or anything like it. You shouldnt take things like this personnaly, its just a forum discussion :)


Quote
Really great way of behaviour. Report post? Hmmm... no... just give a fuck.
Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.

We are not arrogant (well at least i hope not), we are just kinda fed up and fustrated from all the hate and QQ our class generated, which at the end resulted in so many nerfs that most (including me) old horse archers rage quitted the class.

And for the few times that we ask for rebalance of the class and we see so much people posting against it, we tend to react like this for the rest of the topic:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 07, 2012, 08:42:14 pm
nerf HA even more, so people stop playing it at all
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 07, 2012, 09:07:19 pm
We are not arrogant (well at least i hope not), we are just kinda fed up and fustrated from all the hate and QQ our class generated, which at the end resulted in so many nerfs that most (including me) old horse archers rage quitted the class.

And for the few times that we ask for rebalance of the class we see so much people posting against it, we tend to react like this for the rest of the topic:
(click to show/hide)

Well, it's because players know that a rebalance won't change most problems they have with HAs, it will only make them more effective again, which means that the guys they hate will have it easier to score kills. That's the general reaction.

HAs are both very mobile and able to fight over distance, which makes them a dangerous enemy. That's why they got nerfed to the ground, but still they are "annoying" (at least). Which, in my eyes, is not a solution of the problem and doesn't help anybody, neither the HAs nor their victims.

I was saying that the mechanics need to be changed, instead of having another rebalance. Perhaps you didn't know my suggestion, so I will explain it with a few sentences:

If we changed the battle mode (round based team deathmatch: "kill all enemies") to round based conquest (take and hold the majority of all flags on the map to make the enemy lose some abstract ressource and make him lose the round) things would change. Suddenly you wouldn't have to kill those horse archers any more, if you can't. You could simply get to the next flag and defend it. The horse archer would have to conquer the flag himself to prevent you of winning, which means he can still do his "shoot and run" thing, but (given the absolutely required condition that every flag also offers some cover, a good map design is part of my suggestion!) the shooting won't be too effective, and the running will not be needed.

So if HAs love to ride around and pepper people with their arrows they can still do it, and with the buffs they should receive they would be even better at it than now, but it won't annoy the shit out of the people because it wouldn't be so important for winning the round any more. On the other hand it wouldn't be unimportant either. Conclusion: HAs have more fun, rest is less annoyed and thus has more fun, everyone is happy, nobody is nerfed.

That's how I think you can solve the problem. You see how my suggestion differs from any "WPF-Power Draw-Missile Speed"-suggestion (= rebalance sugestion)? You are free to find another solution which also improves the things like mine, but doesn't really affect the "deadlyness" of a class. All I can say is, that finding such a solution will be difficult as hell.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 07, 2012, 10:38:51 pm
And thats why i never post on forums, beeing forced to respond to post like this...
There is so much flaws in this post that i dont know where to start. Ill just go point by point and try to be as brief as possible:

Just give it up. They hate the class and so will flood your thread with exaggerations and falsehoods. They aren't even trying to understand your points, so don't bother trying to explain yourself and don't bother trying to correct what they already know is false.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Taser on December 07, 2012, 11:04:45 pm
Just give it up. They hate the class and so will flood your thread with exaggerations and falsehoods. They aren't even trying to understand your points, so don't bother trying to explain yourself and don't bother trying to correct what they already know is false.

Pretty much this. Most people will just say HA's suck rather than try and think of a way to make it better since they don't want it better.

Its why I find it ironic that Joker, a person who absolutely hates ranged and would rather have no ranged at all in this game, is suggesting one of the best suggestions in this thread. Its the same one he's been trying to suggest for the better part of a year (or more?) and is widely supported and would fix a lot of issues, such as why people dislike HA's.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 08, 2012, 12:05:26 am
Guys, dunno if right or not, but i have never seen a HA admitting that the gamestyle of the class is ultragay and is fun perhaps only for the guys playing it. Where is the fun in chasing one last guy on horse while you are 5 guys without any ranged capability whatsoever and/or shields? Frustrating to hell to lose a round like this. (Corsair anyone, and do not tell me not to use him as example, all them 2h haters are usually pissed on few certain players aswell, i like the guy, but i hate to fight against him).

And Cris, to be honest, i am really surprised you are the one bringing this up. Everytime we met on battle and you decided to kill me, you just did, i had no way to protect myself. You could just stand on hill across the village and snipe me. Yes, that happened two days ago. Maybe three now. Do not complain about accuracy when i rarely see you miss when you chase my horse. I can dodge, run, jump, do anything, but you never seem to miss one shot on me, care to explain?

And to the guy bringing up the fairness of class...come on, you spent all your points to be annoying as fuck and then when discussed about this you tell others: anyone can be thrower (well guess what, i would have to GIMP my spec to get somewhat useable throwing capabilities, some HA will not risk getting hit by dagger, some will and once they find out how laughably weak they are with no PD, they will just rape you anyways). You spec in certain way that makes you annoying as hell for most of the server and you ask others to change their build in order to be able to counter you? Come on.

I have played lots and lots of classes over my almost 30 generations, i would not say i am one of the best, but also i think i am not just average player, i have my ups and downs, but when it comes to HA, there are no ups to be had. Yes, i could go thrower in order to survive few HAs circling my team, but then i would not have much fun fighting in melee cause i would have crippled build. And yes, i do need all the stats i can get in order to dodge all the shit that flies or rides around these days.

So, basically, you are all sad that HA got nerfed to state noone plays it. I beg to differ. There are still quite a lot of ranged cav on server during most of the day, i do not see that all those people would play the class just cause they love it.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leesin on December 08, 2012, 01:02:12 am
There are still quite a lot of ranged cav on server during most of the day, i do not see that all those people would play the class just cause they love it.

That's where you're wrong, even if they nerfed HA, AGAIN, I would still play it, just because I enjoy it. But personally I couldn't care less what they do with it, I still piss plenty of people off and help my team so I'm happy.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 08, 2012, 05:22:51 am
That's where you're wrong, even if they nerfed HA, AGAIN, I would still play it, just because I enjoy it. But personally I couldn't care less what they do with it, I still piss plenty of people off and help my team so I'm happy.

I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey?  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 08, 2012, 06:42:21 am
I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey?  :mrgreen:

Oh it was great fun before, but the more you post and the madder you get, it just adds that extra spice now  :wink:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cepeshi on December 08, 2012, 07:21:14 am
Oh it was great fun before, but the more you post and the madder you get, it just adds that extra spice now  :wink:

anything to keep the HA community happy  :twisted:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leesin on December 08, 2012, 09:53:33 am
I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey?  :mrgreen:

Well besides the fun I have playing HA, yes, I do enjoy seeing players on the enemy team raging, it's psychological warfare, get the enemy pissed, trying to hunt you, take their focus away from the real goal of actually winning and make them just want to kill you badly. And after all why shouldn't I enjoy that, considering it's one of the only things for the HA that wasn't nerfed into the dirt.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Azlanek on December 08, 2012, 03:49:39 pm
I don't like Horse Archers, but it is very rewarding when you finally get a chance to get some payback on them. And this is coming from a ninja class.

I say buff them.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 08, 2012, 04:34:48 pm
Regardless on the situation, there is another point: When dehorsed (which is easily done) HA still have to live the HA WPP penalty, thats another unfairness on the class.

This was actually a change a lot of people agreed with a while ago when it was deemed that it was unfair for HA to be as effective as foot archers on foot. Something I can understand. Yeah it doesn't actually make sense but from a balancing pov it's fine.

Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.

At least I don't make the same damn post in every thread.

But seriously when people rage over HA so much it gets tiring. Especially when it led to our class being heavily nerfed to being no where near as effective as before for no other reason that gamers getting their knickers in a twist because they got shot by a few arrows. It's got nothing to do with arrogance. Simply a disdain for people who choose to hate on one particular class for no other reason than they don't know how to combat it.

I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey?  :mrgreen:

True enough. That's why I focus almost entirely on enemy cavalry. They get very pissed off when you shoot down their horses.

Guys, dunno if right or not, but i have never seen a HA admitting that the gamestyle of the class is ultragay and is fun perhaps only for the guys playing it. Where is the fun in chasing one last guy on horse while you are 5 guys without any ranged capability whatsoever and/or shields? Frustrating to hell to lose a round like this. (Corsair anyone, and do not tell me not to use him as example, all them 2h haters are usually pissed on few certain players aswell, i like the guy, but i hate to fight against him).

And Cris, to be honest, i am really surprised you are the one bringing this up. Everytime we met on battle and you decided to kill me, you just did, i had no way to protect myself. You could just stand on hill across the village and snipe me. Yes, that happened two days ago. Maybe three now. Do not complain about accuracy when i rarely see you miss when you chase my horse. I can dodge, run, jump, do anything, but you never seem to miss one shot on me, care to explain?

And to the guy bringing up the fairness of class...come on, you spent all your points to be annoying as fuck and then when discussed about this you tell others: anyone can be thrower (well guess what, i would have to GIMP my spec to get somewhat useable throwing capabilities, some HA will not risk getting hit by dagger, some will and once they find out how laughably weak they are with no PD, they will just rape you anyways). You spec in certain way that makes you annoying as hell for most of the server and you ask others to change their build in order to be able to counter you? Come on.

I have played lots and lots of classes over my almost 30 generations, i would not say i am one of the best, but also i think i am not just average player, i have my ups and downs, but when it comes to HA, there are no ups to be had. Yes, i could go thrower in order to survive few HAs circling my team, but then i would not have much fun fighting in melee cause i would have crippled build. And yes, i do need all the stats i can get in order to dodge all the shit that flies or rides around these days.

So, basically, you are all sad that HA got nerfed to state noone plays it. I beg to differ. There are still quite a lot of ranged cav on server during most of the day, i do not see that all those people would play the class just cause they love it.

Yes it's the same with any class. You want to counter one particular class, you have to change your build. It's how it works. No one build can take on everything hence having to work as a team. Being the only melee left vs ranged is your teams failing. It has nothing to do with the HA choosing the play style. Your teams ranged decided to get themselves killed and screwed over the team. Your guys didn't take shields and screwed themselves over. Not the HA's fault. If I as an HA wanted to have 1h cav capabilities I could. This could be to combat other 1h cav or give myself fighting ability on foot as many HA do. But it gimps their bow accuracy in the process. If they can do it why can't you?

Horses are big targets.

You don't want to be thrower or xbow or bow hybrid then you have to deal with the consequences. Not bitch and moan because you made a choice that means your useless in certain fights.

The only reason I play HA is because I love it. My hoplite alt gives me kills + a score far higher than anything I can achieve as an HA. But HA is my main because I love the play style. It's just not a very good one when looking at the basic set up.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 08, 2012, 05:47:25 pm
Double post woops.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 08, 2012, 09:52:07 pm
This was actually a change a lot of people agreed with a while ago when it was deemed that it was unfair for HA to be as effective as foot archers on foot. Something I can understand. Yeah it doesn't actually make sense but from a balancing pov it's fine.

But they aren't. A 0 athletics horse archer on the ground, everything else being the same, is nowhere near as effective offensively or defensively as a 7-9 athletics foot archer.  :idea:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 08, 2012, 09:53:51 pm
But seriously when people rage over HA so much it gets tiring. Especially when it led to our class being heavily nerfed to being no where near as effective as before for no other reason that gamers getting their knickers in a twist because they got shot by a few arrows. It's got nothing to do with arrogance. Simply a disdain for people who choose to hate on one particular class for no other reason than they don't know how to combat it.

I know what you are talking about. I can imagine how it sucks to waste half a quiver o a single enemy to finally bring him down. But on the other hand I would like to ecnourage you to put yourself into the position of some players having to fight infantry. You say things like "get shot by a few arrows" and "don't know how to combat it". But that's simply downplaying the incredibly annoying experience of being attacked by somebody who is literally invulnerable to you unless he decides to play really risky, or unless the circumstances are very special (yes, even on hilly terrain or on city maps you can still kite infantry, if you are careful. Ranged is another things, I admit.). It is not a good game design to have one class which is a 100% counter to some other classes, but has no 100% counter itself. Before you don't understand this, or better: before you don't make yourself really conscious about the feeling such an experience provokes, you won't be able to understand the flaming which goes around against HAs. You will answer the flaming with your own flaming, and the discussion will never end.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 08, 2012, 10:01:48 pm
I know what you are talking about. I can imagine how it sucks to waste half a quiver o a single enemy to finally bring him down. But on the other hand I would like to ecnourage you to put yourself into the position of some players having to fight infantry. You say things like "get shot by a few arrows" and "don't know how to combat it". But that's simply downplaying the incredibly annoying experience of being attacked by somebody who is literally invulnerable to you unless he decides to play really risky, or unless the circumstances are very special (yes, even on hilly terrain or on city maps you can still kite infantry, if you are careful. Ranged is another things, I admit.). It is not a good game design to have one class which is a 100% counter to some other classes, but has no 100% counter itself. Before you don't understand this, or better: before you don't make yourself really conscious about the feeling such an experience provokes, you won't be able to understand the flaming which goes around against HAs. You will answer the flaming with your own flaming, and the discussion will never end.

I hear you Joker, but classes are a carrot and stick. HA on horse is a great carrot. HA dehorsed is a great stick. They can easily be run down by any shielder with their 0 athletics.

TinCan Heroes have a great carrot. They are Melee Gods on the battlefield. What they are grousing about is they can't stand having a stick too. That stick is that faster and mounted ranged can destroy them.

It's been said before, they could stick with their team, use their shielders, their own team's ranged by protecting them from enemy melee heroes, but they don't. They want to be Rambo, plowing through groups of soft targets with gleeful ease, until ranged does their job and stops Rambo from being Rambo. Then the rage and tears flow like blood from a stuck pig.

There actually is a Rambo class. It is 1 hand shielder + thrower. It can take any class down, HA/HX included. But they don't want to do that. Instead of dealing with their classes shortcomings, they DEMAND a nerf to their countering stick.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 08, 2012, 10:28:35 pm
I know what you are talking about. I can imagine how it sucks to waste half a quiver o a single enemy to finally bring him down. But on the other hand I would like to ecnourage you to put yourself into the position of some players having to fight infantry. You say things like "get shot by a few arrows" and "don't know how to combat it". But that's simply downplaying the incredibly annoying experience of being attacked by somebody who is literally invulnerable to you unless he decides to play really risky, or unless the circumstances are very special (yes, even on hilly terrain or on city maps you can still kite infantry, if you are careful. Ranged is another things, I admit.). It is not a good game design to have one class which is a 100% counter to some other classes, but has no 100% counter itself. Before you don't understand this, or better: before you don't make yourself really conscious about the feeling such an experience provokes, you won't be able to understand the flaming which goes around against HAs. You will answer the flaming with your own flaming, and the discussion will never end.

I've played as a 2h, hoplite, thrower, archer, xbow and shielder in battle enough times to know what it's like to deal with HA. And I honestly think that because I'm HA myself I know how they fight and rarely have trouble with them. Getting shot in the arse by sneaky foot ranged is more of a concern to me as a footman rather than an HA who does little damage. They are a minor annoyance, nothing more. And as long as you are aware of them, which isn't hard, there's no issue. People just need to learn how to deal with it. The same way foot constantly complain about lancers as well. A lot just don't know how to manage it or just don't care enough to be aware. That is not the fault of the class being 100% invulnerable but the fault of the player on the receiving end.

Maybe if more people tried HA before bitching about them they'd understand where we are coming from. And they also might learn something about fighting them. When you're the one riding the horse you realise what's dangerous and what's not and this can transfer into your actions as a footman. That's partly why I have an alt in as many classes as possible. Even got myself a ninja alt.

But they aren't. A 0 athletics horse archer on the ground, everything else being the same, is nowhere near as effective offensively or defensively as a 7-9 athletics foot archer.  :idea:

In terms of accuracy though they were and that was a big enough of an issue that people complained. I only supported it because it was less of a nerf than many of the others suggested.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Geon on December 08, 2012, 10:29:45 pm
I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I decide to just point out a few things from my own experiences as HA(NOTE: I AM NOT THE BEST HA OUT THERE BY ANY MEANS). Many of you may not even know who I am anyway since I quit for over a year and only in the past month have started playing again.

I do believe the issue of having HA mastery not lower wpf was proposed over a  year again (I remember talking about it) yet it's still implemented. So I can't see it changing anytime soon.
The way I choose to play HA tends to be far more aggressive than most HA would go for. I focus more on keeping my teammates safe from enemy lancers, or give a -hopefully- helpful bump to those in need. Of course staying too close to the enemy infantry or ranged easily gets you dehorsed.

Most of the time you are immediately jumped up, raped from all angles without a chance to switch to your side arm (that is if you even carry one). Sometimes though you survive, and now you're a foot archer. Unless you find another horse you will be moving pretty damn slowly. Enemy archers will out draw you, and enemy cavalry will pounce upon you like ravenous beasts. Such is the life of a horse archer.

I love the class though, it's always been my favorite even through the tedious times of 20+ misses in a row. Do I expect to be able to shoot accurately when my horse is moving at max speed? No. That would be crazy! However, I don't feel like horse archers should have to be moving at a slow-mid speed trot to get a accurate shot. Which is where it stands at the moment.

Horse archery is a "support" class, as it should be. You get to view the battle from a different angle, and are able to take advantage of this. Shooting the backs of unsuspecting prey, or just plowing through someone (hopefully not being baited to your doom). I don't ever expect to top the scoreboards or kill the most people in a round, but people treat most horse archers like shit. Spitting upon my horse and I like we are trash meant to be disposed of in the most inhumane way.

I am not a mounted machine gunner spraying thousands of rounds into the enemy line while laughing maniacally. I am a horse archer! Proud and true! I'll shoot you! I'll miss! So I'll bump you and shoot you again and hopefully hit! Until you die - or start spinning! Then I'll move on to the next job.

So please good gentlemen, give me a chance to pierce the skies and your armor a little more!

FOR THE TEAM, FOR THE FUN, FOR THE LAUGHING MANIACALLY!

TL;DR buff pls.

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 08, 2012, 10:51:58 pm
No. Play CS or some shit BF game.

IMO
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on December 08, 2012, 10:57:29 pm
Well, it's because players know that a rebalance won't change most problems they have with HAs, it will only make them more effective again, which means that the guys they hate will have it easier to score kills. That's the general reaction.

HAs are both very mobile and able to fight over distance, which makes them a dangerous enemy. That's why they got nerfed to the ground, but still they are "annoying" (at least). Which, in my eyes, is not a solution of the problem and doesn't help anybody, neither the HAs nor their victims.

I was saying that the mechanics need to be changed, instead of having another rebalance. Perhaps you didn't know my suggestion, so I will explain it with a few sentences:

If we changed the battle mode (round based team deathmatch: "kill all enemies") to round based conquest (take and hold the majority of all flags on the map to make the enemy lose some abstract ressource and make him lose the round) things would change. Suddenly you wouldn't have to kill those horse archers any more, if you can't. You could simply get to the next flag and defend it. The horse archer would have to conquer the flag himself to prevent you of winning, which means he can still do his "shoot and run" thing, but (given the absolutely required condition that every flag also offers some cover, a good map design is part of my suggestion!) the shooting won't be too effective, and the running will not be needed.

So if HAs love to ride around and pepper people with their arrows they can still do it, and with the buffs they should receive they would be even better at it than now, but it won't annoy the shit out of the people because it wouldn't be so important for winning the round any more. On the other hand it wouldn't be unimportant either. Conclusion: HAs have more fun, rest is less annoyed and thus has more fun, everyone is happy, nobody is nerfed.

That's how I think you can solve the problem. You see how my suggestion differs from any "WPF-Power Draw-Missile Speed"-suggestion (= rebalance sugestion)? You are free to find another solution which also improves the things like mine, but doesn't really affect the "deadlyness" of a class. All I can say is, that finding such a solution will be difficult as hell.
I like the idea of a conquest mod, but i woulnt want it to replace the good old battle mod. As it ressemble more Siege mod, which i never play ^^


EDIT: Ill stop posting in this topic since its slowly turning into a argument between PRO buff and OPPOSIT buff  and i havent got time for that :mrgreen:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Arrowblood on December 08, 2012, 10:57:50 pm
No. Play CS or some shit BF game.

IMO
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Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 08, 2012, 11:06:01 pm
Shielders: Sure buff HA, why not (doesn't affect me)?
Archers: sure buff HA, I don't care, maybe I will even try HA
HA: BUFF PLS!
Melee: This is were it gets interesting. We have people who don't care (sure give a little buff), and people who strongly oppose it. These guys are the only ones who have a legitimate say, everyone else is campaigning for something that doesn't affect them or something that could benefit them. Lots of BS really, can't take it seriously
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Xol! on December 08, 2012, 11:35:26 pm
*snip*
A good part of the vitriolic hatred towards HA and HX comes from the end of round 'delaying'.  It's not really deserved, as most of the good HA/HX players won't do it unless they know they have a good chance of clutching, but it only takes one or two really shitty conservative players to ruin the community's attitude towards the class as a whole.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Pentecost on December 08, 2012, 11:50:15 pm
Shielders: Sure buff HA, why not (doesn't affect me)?
Archers: sure buff HA, I don't care, maybe I will even try HA
HA: BUFF PLS!
Melee: This is were it gets interesting. We have people who don't care (sure give a little buff), and people who strongly oppose it. These guys are the only ones who have a legitimate say, everyone else is campaigning for something that doesn't affect them or something that could benefit them. Lots of BS really, can't take it seriously

I'd like you to clarify something. Are you suggesting here that all it takes to be "unaffected" by a horse archer is having a decent shield?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 09, 2012, 12:09:48 am
People who's primary role involves holding a shield are affected far less than pure melee classes, similarly with regular archers

My role is completely obstructed if I switch to shield. I'm a purely defensive role in that case. Even with a shield on my back my primarily role is harshly affected. The reduced speed isn't worth having the detrimental affect on my main role.

People forget too why people play this game. The melee combat with manual blocking is one of the main things that made M&B so popular. Its such a waste to insist people play it with one of the main game mechanics taken away, just because some baddie FPS players want to hit slow moving targets that can't shoot back.

HA/Hxbow drag rounds out, they increase everyone's upkeep by making us take extra ticks when everyone else has already died. They shoot from a position of safety against slow moving targets and in any other real FPS game most likely these guys would have no chance at all
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 01:36:54 am
If you dont play this game with a 4 directional weapon and manual blocking.....
Why?  its the only fucking point of the game. All other aspects of it are done better elsewhere

Being ranged at all in a game revolving around hand to hand combat is all about griefing.
Do you like griefing?
Shooting people and ruining their shit, denying them a chance to play the game and have fun.

In fact im not sure why its even a part of the game anymore, its just so incredibly annoying and just ruins the experience.
Its not even fun to kill a ranged guy when you finally catch him, cause most cant fight back or even if they can it will be unfair.

Balance the game in the right direction.

Remove HA, its the best solution.

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 01:56:39 am
Lol now that's just getting to trolling. I don't know any other games that have a competent archery system in, much less HA system in a good multiplayer set up. The manual combat is not even close to being the 'unique' selling point of the game.

There's a reason why the melee only server never had any numbers.

HA/Hxbow drag rounds out, they increase everyone's upkeep by making us take extra ticks when everyone else has already died.

Devs must love us. They are forever looking for new gold sinks.

People who's primary role involves holding a shield are affected far less than pure melee classes, similarly with regular archers

My role is completely obstructed if I switch to shield. I'm a purely defensive role in that case. Even with a shield on my back my primarily role is harshly affected. The reduced speed isn't worth having the detrimental affect on my main role.

HA/Hxbow drag rounds out, they increase everyone's upkeep by making us take extra ticks when everyone else has already died. They shoot from a position of safety against slow moving targets and in any other real FPS game most likely these guys would have no chance at all

And as a result you have to deal with the consequences. A bloody tourny shield can stop enough arrows to get rid of an HA. Remind me how many slots does a 2h weapon take? How many slots does a tourny shield take? How difficult is it to stay near your team?

Answers are pretty obvious.

We aren't saying you can't use melee blocking. And HA are rare enough that it's hardly an issue for 90% of the players on the battlefield any one round. If not more. But you should be prepared to adapt to different situations. If that requires 1 point in the shield skill, then be prepared to do that. People in crpg believe far to much in 'pure' builds. When spending 1 extra point could make all the difference. In a battle situation it doesn't actually matter that much. If you're that worried stick to duel.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 01:58:22 am
Try Quake,  or counterstrike?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 01:59:40 am
Competent archery system.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Shaksie on December 09, 2012, 02:00:01 am
Yeah horse archery is pretty ridiculously bad. You almost can't shoot when moving and you can't hold the arrow back long enough to have a reasonable rate of fire while slowing down to retain accuracy. Horse Crossbowers are quite a bit better because they can aim for as long as they like but to be honest both classes' damage is too low for their horrid moving accuracy. That being said buffing their accuracy while at speed is a delicate topic; they could become extremely overpowered very easily or as they currently are; quite underpowered.

Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.

I love you, Teeth >8')
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 02:03:12 am
Archery is about leading shots, and calculating trajectory and fallof on the go right?

Quake1 came out like 16 years ago right?  Rocket launcher and grenade launcher.  Done 100times better than in crpg.

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 02:08:15 am
Archery is about leading shots, and calculating trajectory and fallof on the go right?

Quake1 came out like 16 years ago right?  Rocket launcher and grenade launcher.  Done 100times better than in crpg.

Ok let me add a clause seeing as you also skipped over the 'HA' bit.

Competent archery system, and horse archery system in a medieval setting.

No other first person game does this. So much for manual blocking being the selling point.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leshma on December 09, 2012, 02:12:18 am
Buffing HA skill will also buff HC. Just saying.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 02:13:25 am
Not sure if the devs could direct it so it only affects archery wpf and not xbow wpf.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 09, 2012, 02:14:46 am
About melee only server: Never been on it. I don't object to any class being in the game per se, I just feel like ranged is a rushed game mechanic tacked onto what the original M&B devs spent 90% of their time on. Its crosshairs with cone of fire and fast projectiles..if someone wanted to do a competent job at archery they would have a free aim system with iron sights and proper projectile dip. This point & click garbage doesn't deserve a place next to cav and melee imo. In a game with the depth of melee I expect far more in terms of game mechanics and depth. Crossbows are the worst of the lot but since this is about HA.

About shields again. I think I covered most in my post, but forgot about unsheatable weapons. Anyway, my main point is that shields render my class to purely defensive and I need to spend my time on more productive stuff to help win the round. How many shots do you think a 1 or 0 slot shield can take anyway..you want me to take more points away from my main role and still put myself in a position where I might as well play with a shield as my primary role?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 02:24:56 am
About melee only server: Never been on it. I don't object to any class being in the game per se, I just feel like ranged is a rushed game mechanic tacked onto what the original M&B devs spent 90% of their time on. Its crosshairs and fast projectiles..if someone wanted to do a competent job at archery they would have a free aim system with iron sights and proper projectile dip. This point & click garbage doesn't deserve a place next to cav and melee imo. Crossbows are the worst of the lot but since this is about HA..

About shields again. I think I covered most in my post, but forgot about unsheatable weapons. Anyway, my main point is that shields render my class to purely defensive and I need to spend my time on more productive stuff to help win the round. How many shots do you think a 1 or 0 slot shield can take anyway..you want me to take more points away from my main role?

Ranged has arguably been done better in even chivalry and WotR but even those don't have iron sights. A large part of that is because technically speaking trained archers don't aim. Particularly for example the long bow because you can't. It's supposed to be instinctive. As such iron sights aren't needed. Not to mention actual iron sights don't exist on a bow unless you aim down the arrow and even that isn't particularly right in terms of firing one. Iron sights are for modern day weapons. So the crosshair is an accurate representation although warband's random cross hair is horrible.

How do they? Put away your shield and fight with your weapon. Not a sheathable weapon? Well then try stay close to shielders in your team. Be battle smart. More points from your main role? 1 point is needed for a tourny shield. Battle are chaotic and rarely is a 1vs1 duel the decider. As such 1 point difference in your build really doesn't change much.

Regardless of this. HA do not dictate the battlefield. Sure some end up last on a team, and more really should suicide charge unless they stand a reasonable chance, something I always do unless I'm particularly pissed off at the enemy. But in reality they are not that big of a threat to necessarily force every player to change his build and this is where team play is probably lacking. If HA are such a problem then archers would focus on them more and they others would target them. Seeing as they don't it can only be assumed that generally speaking they aren't considered a serious threat.

As it was said by Xolvern I think a lot of the hate comes from the round delaying. Because in all reality there are so few HA, and many of the good ones barely play any more or quit because of the nerfs and I think that's a demonstration of when a class has hit rock bottom in terms of being UP. When the best players quit playing the class, and even some average players it's a sign. In most cases some come back after a while to crpg, but with HA that's not really happened and now less and less people are playing it and many new people give up on it immediately because it sucks.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 09, 2012, 02:32:08 am
When I say Iron Sights I don't mean it quite litterally like that. If you played a game called Red Orchestra you could see "free aim" and "sway", which means the centre point of the screen is not literally the point of release for the shot and there is some natural deviation of the weapon. Now its like your eye is at a fixed point on your arm and never deviates. You can have the point of release move based on player breathing, player movement and have some base unsteadiness (its not rock steady). You could have a snap shot with free aim (no iron sight), and an "iron sight" mode where you bring the bow up closer to eye level, again with free aim. You don't need crosshairs at all then, and you don't even need randomness if you have decent sway. This would create more depth rather than 90's style fps mechanics alongside realism or sim style melee combat
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 03:03:38 am
Red orchestra is a realistic shooter and that style suits that type of game. Warband/crpg is in no way a realistic medieval sim, certainly not in terms of damage. Not sure a complex archery system, that complex, would suit it. Sure I'd have been all for developing more mechanics but I'm not sure how suited to the game they would be.

It would certainly slow the game down more. Just as Red Orchestra is a pretty slow game in comparison to other WW2 shooters.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Pentecost on December 09, 2012, 03:05:48 am
Grumbs and Tindel: Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you two are saying, but it sounds to me as though you want all of the advantages that come with using a greatsword or longsword without having to adapt to any of the downsides associates with it.

How many shots do you think a 1 or 0 slot shield can take anyway

(click to show/hide)

..you want me to take more points away from my main role and still put myself in a position where I might as well play with a shield as my primary role?

(click to show/hide)

Remove HA, its the best solution.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 09, 2012, 03:18:14 am
I simply don't want to have to play with inferior game mechanics from a "fun" perspective (omni-direction block). If I need to take the added weight of a shield and wanted to maximise my effect on the battlefield I might as well take a shield orientated build. If i'm going to use a manual block weapon as my primary attack I would rather not take the extra weight that a pure shielder will have. If I need to take that weight I might as well use the shield most if not all the time, which is counter to the main draw of the game for me.

Lets not forget, shields are only a defensive counter. Ranged have direct offensive counters at any range, and direct 100% damage reduction in melee range. Crossbows especially have very little downside to playing hybrid range/melee, all you need is some basic manual blocking skills and you have best of both worlds

And I will never get just why ranged deserve this sort of damage, battle presence or to force players to play in a certain way, for the inputs they make. I wouldn't mind so much if there was some depth to the classes
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: jtobiasm on December 09, 2012, 03:42:11 am
I like how it's mainly infantry guys who are complaining.

As a HA I don't feel like I have done my job until all the light Cav has been taken down. I use cut arrows so it takes a while to kill heavy horses. With this said, I hardly ever shoot infantry guys until late in the round or until all the cav is down. Yet they are the ones who complain the most about HAs.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 09, 2012, 04:49:29 am
About melee only server: Never been on it.

Then STFU. You have a server designed exactly for your whiny ass complaints and won't play on it?

Get fucked nerd. I look forward to HA's drawing your tears to infinity.

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Falka on December 09, 2012, 06:55:41 am
Simply a disdain for people who choose to hate on one particular class for no other reason than they don't know how to combat it.
Don't know how to combat it? My main is 2h hero, my alt is 1h pussy, no shield, could you tell me how am I supposed to fight your class? Should I spit on you or what? The only way I can fight against horse archers is wait for flag, then let them shot me. Hm, sounds like a fun!  :wink:

Nerf for HAs was fully justified cause they were too annoying and too effective.

Though I have to admit raging over HAs and bitching how gay this class is (which is true ofc  :wink:) is ridiculous, in my opinion being piker or hoplite is equally gay and I'm sure there are ppl who think 2h is gay too  :wink: So all in all we all are gays  :mrgreen:

PS
I hardly ever shoot infantry guys until late in the round or until all the cav is down. Yet they are the ones who complain the most about HAs.

Probably because cav have a chance to fight you back, while infantry can only hide and wait and waiting isn't the most entertaining thing which you can do in game  :wink:

If HA are such a problem then archers would focus on them more and they others would target them. Seeing as they don't it can only be assumed that generally speaking they aren't considered a serious threat.
It doesn't matter if they are a serious threat. Infantry is easier target so archers shoot at them. Easy kills are priority for cRPG players. Why do you think I always chase peasants? Because they are "a serious threat"? Ofc not, because they are the only ones who I can kill without effort :wink:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: OpenPalm on December 09, 2012, 07:05:48 am
Hmmm... people make characters with no ranged abilities and then whine when they can't hit ranged...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Falka on December 09, 2012, 07:13:26 am
Hmmm... people make characters with no ranged abilities and then whine when they can't hit ranged...  :rolleyes:
Hm, sounds reasonable to me  :wink:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Jarlek on December 09, 2012, 09:21:46 am
Then STFU. You have a server designed exactly for your whiny ass complaints and won't play on it?

Get fucked nerd. I look forward to HA's drawing your tears to infinity.

 :mrgreen:
There haven't been a melee server for ages.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 11:04:20 am
Why dont we have a HA or ranged only server?  That would be excellent.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 01:48:13 pm
Don't know how to combat it? My main is 2h hero, my alt is 1h pussy, no shield, could you tell me how am I supposed to fight your class? Should I spit on you or what? The only way I can fight against horse archers is wait for flag, then let them shot me. Hm, sounds like a fun!  :wink:

Not particularly hard. Seen plenty of people able to spin around lots and then slice a HA off his horse when he gets frustrated and go for the bump. HA's have to ride close to score hit after hit. If they don't, your moving around should give you more than enough chance. If you have even half decent armour 1 or 2 arrows really won't hurt much. The HA will likely make a mistake at some point you've just got to be patient.

Unfortunately rarely do melee do this. They either just try to run in one direction or give up. Moving as much as possible is by far the best you can do and you can waste an HA's entire quiver doing this. If you are with team mates then there's no need to do this in the first place as HA will hit and run.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 09, 2012, 01:51:34 pm
Not particularly hard. Seen plenty of people able to spin around lots and then slice a HA off his horse when he gets frustrated and go for the bump. HA's have to ride close to score hit after hit. If they don't, your moving around should give you more than enough chance. If you have even half decent armour 1 or 2 arrows really won't hurt much. The HA will likely make a mistake at some point you've just got to be patient.

Unfortunately rarely do melee do this. They either just try to run in one direction or give up. Moving as much as possible is by far the best you can do and you can waste an HA's entire quiver doing this. If you are with team mates then there's no need to do this in the first place as HA will hit and run.

That's about as effective a way of "fighting" HA as shielders are a counter to kiters.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 09, 2012, 01:58:15 pm
Well it actually works. In a 1vs1 situation. No different to when people used to do stupid things like spin-stab ect. Sure you might look like a retard but it wastes HA's arrows, avoids them and can land you hits on their horse/them.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leesin on December 09, 2012, 03:14:31 pm
Why dont we have a HA or ranged only server?  That would be excellent.

Because no one would play it, I certainly wouldn't play on there with my HA, it would be pointless because the HA's whole reason to exist is to annoy whining Infantry and enemy cavalry.

But yeah, most of the people whining about HA have never even played HA, go get one to level with a 15/24 build and tell me how easy it is, EVERYONE targets you, you're in light armour with small HP, on a fast moving horse,when you get hit by something it HURTS hard. Hitting people at full gallop is NOT point and click. Repairs are also horrendous. I reserve my right to be an annoying douche for all of these reasons.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 09, 2012, 04:10:47 pm
There haven't been a melee server for ages.

Making this about a vocal minority who couldn't even support the style of gameplay they claim they are after.  :lol:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 09, 2012, 05:50:34 pm
We have barely enough to get the main EU server active in the evenings..IF EU1 removed ranged or nerfed it to pure support I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but i'm not suggesting I want to play on melee vs melee only, especially not on an obscure server when we have barely enough for the main Number 1 server. Is it even up to date without polestagger and stuff?

Ranged adds another dimension to the game that would be a shame to lose..we just have far too many and the actual classes are far too shallow compared to the rest of the game
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Jarlek on December 09, 2012, 07:04:32 pm
Making this about a vocal minority who couldn't even support the style of gameplay they claim they are after.  :lol:
That's ok then. Removed the -.

Also, lol at Tindel the QQ my old friend. I love it when people like him, who claims 2h is the hardest class, whines about others :D
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Bonze on December 09, 2012, 08:18:11 pm
Seen Today , HA with 20 kills 
All what you want is his build and his loomed items 

BUT

visitors can't see pics , please register or login





and your SILLY THREAD 
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Torben on December 09, 2012, 10:23:55 pm
fat idiot broke the thread again
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 10:32:05 pm
That's ok then. Removed the -.

Also, lol at Tindel the QQ my old friend. I love it when people like him, who claims 2h is the hardest class, whines about others :D

Tell me where i have written or said that 2h is the hardest class.  I have never said that.
Also im not QQing,  the HA my old friends in the thread are qq.

Thrower is probably the hardest class, since they suck balls
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 10:34:09 pm
Because no one would play it, I certainly wouldn't play on there with my HA, it would be pointless because the HA's whole reason to exist is to annoy whining Infantry and enemy cavalry.

But yeah, most of the people whining about HA have never even played HA, go get one to level with a 15/24 build and tell me how easy it is, EVERYONE targets you, you're in light armour with small HP, on a fast moving horse,when you get hit by something it HURTS hard. Hitting people at full gallop is NOT point and click. Repairs are also horrendous. I reserve my right to be an annoying douche for all of these reasons.


Of course no one would play it, the whole point of HA is to ruin everyone elses fun.  They dont want their fun ruined.  Imagine 50vs 50  HA's riding around in circles firing arrows. A glorious sight!
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Dezilagel on December 09, 2012, 10:39:07 pm
Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.

Why are the HA's/Archers -ing this?

It's completely true from the perspective of someone playing any kind of melee build.

Leesin seems to understand. Sure I'd tell him to go fuck himself if he showed up on the server, but I'd do so in a heartwarming and non-condescending manner while still letting my tears of rage fill his now overflowing cup of joy. Rainbows. Yay.

The rest of you seem to want to have your cakes and eat them. If you play HA noone but other HA and some stuck-up ranged (who keep telling themselves that getting bump-shot is FUN) will ever like your playstyle, and consequently your internet persona. Just stop trying.

All you HA crying ybout repairs, maybe you should think about that when delaying rounds till the very end upping everybodys chance of repairs including yours.   :wink:

Best post in thread.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tot. on December 09, 2012, 10:44:43 pm
Saying that we should consider the fun an archer is having from shooting people that can't fight back is like saying that we should consider the pleasure a parasite is having from leeching victims blood. This game is about melee, your interference into the game mechanics of melee fights by arrow stagger is already more than enough and really frustrating, asking to boost your damage so that you're able to score kills without any risk is ridiculous.

Do realize that you are the guys who bring guns to a knife fight and ruin everyone elses fun.


PS.  Actually I'll just requote one of the first answers. It should end this silly thread right there, no idea what are you even talking about for ten pages.

Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 09, 2012, 11:25:21 pm
I want to add only a few statements from my side:

- suggesting to remove an entire class is a complete dick move. It shows ignorance, lack of will to put oneself in the position of the others, and generally disqualifies you from the discussion. Suggesting to make the game plainer really is unacceptable. Grow some empathy.

- Melee only or ranged only servers are actually the same thing like above. The game is meant to work as a whole, and not in parts. That's why such servers never have prevailed, nor will they ever prevail. The gameplay will become too dull.

- Suggesting to change builds or equipment is not acceptable either. Balancing should take place AFTER people decided for a certain build (which was planned by the developers to be a viable build, ofc). You like to play horse archers, and you don't want people to tell you to have to bring a melee weapon or a shield or whatever to be effective, do you? So please don't tell other people to bring shields or throwing weapons. All featured builds should be equally viable.

- Psychological warfare and having fun by annoying the enemy or provoking aggressions is highly unsocial. You seem to forget that after all you don't play AGAINST, but WITH the others, even if they are in the opposing team. They have the same right to have fun like you, and trying to annoy people on purpose is very egoistic and - in my eyes - shows lack of maturity. Because if everybody was trying to annoy the shit out of the others people would GTX by and by, and after some time there is nobody you can play with. Having a community which lasts long means not only to keep the annoyances as low as possible, it also means to keep their distribution as even as possible.

- Yes, there are counter classes in this game. But you always need to look at the whole class balance to determine whether something is okay or not. Yes, a plated 2hd hero is a pretty strong class in many, if not most situations. But if he, in certain situations, has no chance of winning the round, something is not okay in my eyes. I think all classes should have the same chance of influencing the end of the round by the same extend (!). But if the end of the round is achieved by killing all enemies, and a few, mobile and ranged classes are fighting some slow, short ranged ones, I call it unfair. Never mind if both classes have the same amount of kills, or even if the second class has more kills.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 09, 2012, 11:28:13 pm
I've been off for a couple of days, I've just had a quick look all post, and its just funny how people complain about HA so much and about what we are asking. I am assuming most people haven't even looked at my video to have a decent understanding of what we are talking about.

Bonze, I've gotten much more than 20 kills as HA, i will assure you, those 20 kills are not of full health people, and probably a lot are bumping and sideweapon. And peasants.

Also, most best melee players will survive a HA one to one, it only takes some awareness and understanding of the HA class (not hard if you actually look at it with a bit of brains)

As usual, most people here complain about HA with really baseless arguments and limited experience on the class, it weaknesses and strength. Furthermore, good players doesn't mean the class is balanced, many of my clan mates can get a decent score on peasant gear, that doesn't mean peasant gear is OP.

Horse Archery needs a buff, right now, it takes easily over 8 arrows (not bodkin, too expensive to upkeep, but still over 5 of them anyway) to kill anyone of decent armor, landing those arrows at speed is already very hard, as player skill is totally ignored by huge reticules...

Also, because of the hate of people for HA, the HA WPP penalty means we are underpowered on foot, which means all small anti cav maps, rageball, DTV, siege and any strat battle without horses. That is most of the game.

HA should be buffed in order to be balanced, or allowed to have different builds for all game types but battle... or removed, which would mean a skill and attribute point reset for all people with HA skill and all loom points given back.

Lessing - I would love to play on a ranged only server, it would be fun, but im insane that wat :-P

About upkeep, the problem with upkeep is that HA pay for the increased archery upkeep, but we already carry most cost than many melee players, and HA delaying is just as bad as campers. I personally will not delay if I dont have a chance, unless i really wanna get one player. I will usually change to sword or stand still to be killed.



To reply to one of jokers all post - A game mode where HA was worth using but its not kill all only would be great, right now HA is nerfed only cos people in battle cry about it. I cant remember the last time someone that only played siege cried about HAs :)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 11:41:23 pm
Its a beta, if a part of it doesnt add to the whole, doesnt contribute.   Remove it.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 09, 2012, 11:46:27 pm
I want to add only a few statements from my side:

- suggesting to remove an entire class is a complete dick move. It shows ignorance, lack of will to put oneself in the position of the others, and generally disqualifies you from the discussion. Suggesting to make the game plainer really is unacceptable. Grow some empathy.

- Melee only or ranged only servers are actually the same thing like above. The game is meant to work as a whole, and not in parts. That's why such servers never have prevailed, nor will they ever prevail. The gameplay will become too dull.

- Suggesting to change builds or equipment is not acceptable either. Balancing should take place AFTER people decided for a certain build (which was planned by the developers to be a viable build, ofc). You like to play horse archers, and you don't want people to tell you to have to bring a melee weapon or a shield or whatever to be effective, do you? So please don't tell other people to bring shields or throwing weapons. All featured builds should be equally viable.

- Psychological warfare and having fun by annoying the enemy or provoking aggressions is highly unsocial. You seem to forget that after all you don't play AGAINST, but WITH the others, even if they are in the opposing team. They have the same right to have fun like you, and trying to annoy people on purpose is very egoistic and - in my eyes - shows lack of maturity. Because if everybody was trying to annoy the shit out of the others people would GTX by and by, and after some time there is nobody you can play with. Having a community which lasts long means not only to keep the annoyances as low as possible, it also means to keep their distribution as even as possible.

- Yes, there are counter classes in this game. But you always need to look at the whole class balance to determine whether something is okay or not. Yes, a plated 2hd hero is a pretty strong class in many, if not most situations. But if he, in certain situations, has no chance of winning the round, something is not okay in my eyes. I think all classes should have the same chance of influencing the end of the round by the same extend (!). But if the end of the round is achieved by killing all enemies, and a few, mobile and ranged classes are fighting some slow, short ranged ones, I call it unfair. Never mind if both classes have the same amount of kills, or even if the second class has more kills.

Did those statements come from your ass? What a bunch of crap, cant you ever write something worthwile reading.   YOU can be disqualified.  thankyouverymuch
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kirman on December 10, 2012, 12:01:54 am
I like the background music  :twisted: Anyway, i think HA should be much more effective than Horse Xbow but its still annoying shoot/ride away/shoot/ride away/.....
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 10, 2012, 12:32:48 am
Did those statements come from your ass? What a bunch of crap, cant you ever write something worthwile reading.   YOU can be disqualified.  thankyouverymuch

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Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 10, 2012, 06:19:11 am
Thats the wrong imagine for that quote,  here you go lad

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No need to thank me, im always ready to help the misinformed.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leesin on December 10, 2012, 04:28:09 pm
I don't care if HA never gets any buffs again tbh. The only builds that don't have a weapon and/or defense vs them is 2h and polearmers that don't have a shield, kind of like how a fast shielder can make a foot archer next to useless in a 1v1 situation. I'm sorry but HA are designed to catch you 2h heroes spinning in circles in the middle of a field because you're so awesome, we have to put you down. Just remember that foot archers > horse archers where accuracy, damage and firing speed is concerned and if you play smart you can nullify a Horse Archers advantages. Give your archers some protection and they should be able to take down the HA's, unless they suck.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 10, 2012, 04:43:16 pm
- Psychological warfare and having fun by annoying the enemy or provoking aggressions is highly unsocial. You seem to forget that after all you don't play AGAINST, but WITH the others, even if they are in the opposing team. They have the same right to have fun like you, and trying to annoy people on purpose is very egoistic and - in my eyes - shows lack of maturity. Because if everybody was trying to annoy the shit out of the others people would GTX by and by, and after some time there is nobody you can play with. Having a community which lasts long means not only to keep the annoyances as low as possible, it also means to keep their distribution as even as possible.

- Yes, there are counter classes in this game. But you always need to look at the whole class balance to determine whether something is okay or not. Yes, a plated 2hd hero is a pretty strong class in many, if not most situations. But if he, in certain situations, has no chance of winning the round, something is not okay in my eyes. I think all classes should have the same chance of influencing the end of the round by the same extend (!). But if the end of the round is achieved by killing all enemies, and a few, mobile and ranged classes are fighting some slow, short ranged ones, I call it unfair. Never mind if both classes have the same amount of kills, or even if the second class has more kills.

Well there are enough dicks in crpg, and people like to rage at HA regardless of whether we are charming or arseholes. So that has pretty much led to my attitude of enjoying making people rage. Otherwise the hate against HA just becomes tiring. It's an inevitability, so why not try your best to do it? That said if there is a player I respect on battle and I recognise them I'll be nice about it a lot of the time. Whether that means just shooting 1 arrow at them and buggering off rather than bumping them periodically/following their horse till it's dead or just leaving them alone entirely I do give some room. But there are enough idiots on crpg to take my frustrations about my class out on.

But a slow arse heavy 2h will likely have a ton of armour? In which case an HA can barely even dent it. When I used barbed arrows they wouldn't even register a hit against heavier armour. Bodkins are only slight better. Not to mention that all you have to do is avoid arrows. Usually by end round weapons have disappeared so no more arrows for HA.

The whole point is that if you want to be melee you have to learn to accept ranged and rely on your cav/ranged to deal with them unless you get lucky and chase one down some how. If they don't then that is the fault of the team. It is a team game after all and no individual can conquer the battlefield. Sure that can be used as 'well HA should be happy with their role' and for the most part I am. But that doesn't stop others asking for buffs when they've been nerfed and HA was nerfed the worst of any. It's not even a big buff. Just people here are particularly unreasonable when it comes to HA and I don't care how much you hate the class, having a little sense and seeing the perspective is far more sensible. But naturally it is a game forum and no way is that going to happen.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Berserkadin on December 10, 2012, 04:51:08 pm
Its a beta, if a part of it doesnt add to the whole, doesnt contribute.   Remove it.

Yes please, permaban Tindel because he is such a fascist pig.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Taser on December 10, 2012, 05:29:39 pm
Saying that we should consider the fun an archer is having from shooting people that can't fight back is like saying that we should consider the pleasure a parasite is having from leeching victims blood. This game is about melee, your interference into the game mechanics of melee fights by arrow stagger is already more than enough and really frustrating, asking to boost your damage so that you're able to score kills without any risk is ridiculous.

Do realize that you are the guys who bring guns to a knife fight and ruin everyone elses fun.

PS.  Actually I'll just requote one of the first answers. It should end this silly thread right there, no idea what are you even talking about for ten pages.

I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the bolded part in which the OP asked for the removal of the -10 wpf per HA skill and is all he asked for. Its an accuracy boost. Period. End of story.

Although I do disagree that ranged "interferes" but that's my opinion.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 10, 2012, 06:09:34 pm
- Psychological warfare and having fun by annoying the enemy or provoking aggressions is highly unsocial. You seem to forget that after all you don't play AGAINST, but WITH the others, even if they are in the opposing team. They have the same right to have fun like you, and trying to annoy people on purpose is very egoistic and - in my eyes - shows lack of maturity. Because if everybody was trying to annoy the shit out of the others people would GTX by and by, and after some time there is nobody you can play with. Having a community which lasts long means not only to keep the annoyances as low as possible, it also means to keep their distribution as even as possible.

I can't emphasize this enough.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Berserkadin on December 10, 2012, 07:46:56 pm
I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but it sucks, especielly unloomed. Meleefascist like kafein and taser only thinks about their own fun. If their nerfs and intolerant views destroys the fun of others, they don't give a shit, aslong as they get to slash people without ever having to worry about ranged.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 10, 2012, 07:51:58 pm
Horse archers are part the game, like footman archers, 2h shotgun crossbows, and cavalry lancers.  Some of these may seem "gay" to 2h heroes, but this is a team based game, and all these classes add dimension to the game, and add to the "rock, paper, scissors" experience that makes this game so great.

Long story short:  If you have to wait until the 4 minute mark (3 minutes into the round) before master of the flag pops up, I say deal with it.  Horse archers (even as nerfed as they are) are still very valuable and have their place on the battlefield. 

My advice to people whining about horse archers/crossbows:  Suck it up.  Stop trying to chase down horse archers when you're on foot.  Hide behind a tree or building or shield (or protect your own archers) until MotF comes up

Disclaimer:  I say this as a class who's largest bane is ranged on horseback.  Although they are a lot weaker and less of a threat to me now than they were a year and a half ago.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: IR_Kuoin on December 10, 2012, 07:55:11 pm
To all the people whining about HAs, try the class before you talk shit about it, then its legit :P
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 10, 2012, 09:05:55 pm
I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but it sucks, especielly unloomed.

So, you feel underpowered. Has this anything to do with how fun it is for other classes to fight your class ? No.

Meleefascist like kafein and taser only thinks about their own fun.

Ho I'm sorry, I thought the debate was more like the whole community against HAs

If their nerfs and intolerant views destroys the fun of others,

Again, others ? Who exactly ? HA ? That's hardly a correct use of "others". I mean yeah I am not an HA myself but not everybody else is an HA. Btw "their nerfs" = decisions coming from the balance team.

they don't give a shit, aslong as they get to slash people without ever having to worry about ranged.

Surely I wouldn't use a shield and throwing weapons if that was the case.



Playing as a melee character doesn't generate a tenth of the rage HAs do. Deal with it. This is not an intolerant view, it's a fact. What you just said proves you are yourself extremely egoistic, or trolling.

This is not a balance issue, I would be fine with balanced HA if fighting them was enjoyable. It is not and never will be no matter how much they are nerfed, so I think the only way to solve this problem is to keep the HA population at a minimum.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 10, 2012, 10:28:18 pm
So, you feel underpowered. Has this anything to do with how fun it is for other classes to fight your class ? No.

Ho I'm sorry, I thought the debate was more like the whole community against HAs

Again, others ? Who exactly ? HA ? That's hardly a correct use of "others". I mean yeah I am not an HA myself but not everybody else is an HA. Btw "their nerfs" = decisions coming from the balance team.

Surely I wouldn't use a shield and throwing weapons if that was the case.



Playing as a melee character doesn't generate a tenth of the rage HAs do. Deal with it. This is not an intolerant view, it's a fact. What you just said proves you are yourself extremely egoistic, or trolling.

This is not a balance issue, I would be fine with balanced HA if fighting them was enjoyable. It is not and never will be no matter how much they are nerfed, so I think the only way to solve this problem is to keep the HA population at a minimum.

Kafein, you couldn't be more wrong, it is completely a balance issue. All player should have the same chances of getting high scores in all types of gameplay. The fun to fight HA is also a none measurable point, I enjoy fighting HA on archer alts, on cav. On melee alts, I dont mind them either, I keep away from open as much as I can, but a horse lancer is much more deadly than a HA.

The debate is also about the skill "horse archery".

That a decision comes from the balance team doesn't mean it a right decision. Right now HA is very nerfed, and even more underpowered in game modes like siege and strat.

HA is a part of the game, as decided by the devs, so it should be balanced properly. If you particularly hate HAs, go melee servers. So many people complain about ranged and mounted range here that it surprises me that the melee server isn't always full.

HA generate rage only on players that lack "real" battle awareness and team play skill when in unfavorable terrain.

And besides, what is the difference rage wise of a HA shooting while standing still and one shooting but a bit more accurately? if you are melee, nothing at all, both time he is out of range... If you are ranged on foot, I rather the HA be moving, time it well and your shots will kill them in one go.

And for the record, back in the old days when I could take on most of a team on my own as a AHA, there were less HA than now... We will never go back to those days (impossible to get the level needed now) and neither am I asking in this thread for anything close to back then (50 speed courser and a reticule that would not open at top speed)

Elimination of the WPP penalty will not increase the number of long term horse archers (people who play it more than a couple of days as stf) HA is a very different class to anyone other, if you love it, you will always play it, if you dont, you will get bored. If you see it as an easy way to get close and shoot, proper HA will kill you instantly.

Look at the pics in the OP, look at the video, do the math, or find similar values in single player if you manage to modify it to cRPG, the change we are asking for is very small, it will make HA fairer, it will not mean nightmare on melee without shield. Because that is the only kind of people with no real defense against HA other than good armor and a brain :-P
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 10, 2012, 11:09:14 pm
So, you feel underpowered. Has this anything to do with how fun it is for other classes to fight your class ? No.

Ho I'm sorry, I thought the debate was more like the whole community against HAs

Again, others ? Who exactly ? HA ? That's hardly a correct use of "others". I mean yeah I am not an HA myself but not everybody else is an HA. Btw "their nerfs" = decisions coming from the balance team.

Surely I wouldn't use a shield and throwing weapons if that was the case.



Playing as a melee character doesn't generate a tenth of the rage HAs do. Deal with it. This is not an intolerant view, it's a fact. What you just said proves you are yourself extremely egoistic, or trolling.

This is not a balance issue, I would be fine with balanced HA if fighting them was enjoyable. It is not and never will be no matter how much they are nerfed, so I think the only way to solve this problem is to keep the HA population at a minimum.

"Fun" is a very important consideration regardless of "balance". Some people are incredibly selfish though, and most these guys don't even care that they waste people's time towards the end of the round. Its all about griefing or going for cheap kills. If people want to play an FPS, play an FPS. Don't spoil an otherwise amazing melee/cav combat game by bringing a gun to a knifefight (and a vehicle). At its core this is a melee game..it should be balanced around that as thats what draws people to it

Buffing HA will not make battle more fun for anyone except the people who play HA. It slows down the whole gameplay and creates stalemates. Same goes for all ranged
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leshma on December 10, 2012, 11:12:21 pm
Much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 10, 2012, 11:20:32 pm

Do realize that you are the guys who bring guns to a knife fight and ruin everyone elses fun.


A friend of mine was jumped by an ex-husband of the waitress he was seeing. Guy slashed him across the gut, he pulled out his gun and shot the guy. Knife wound died, gunshot lived.  :idea:

Sadly, I did not make that up.  :(
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Taser on December 10, 2012, 11:29:06 pm
I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but it sucks, especielly unloomed. Meleefascist like kafein and taser only thinks about their own fun. If their nerfs and intolerant views destroys the fun of others, they don't give a shit, aslong as they get to slash people without ever having to worry about ranged.

Wut? Do you even read? I've been arguing for the boost in the OP this whole thread. I've been ranged as much as I've been melee and I don't have a single problem with ranged.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leshma on December 11, 2012, 12:09:56 am
We'll need a lot of ranged/melee hybrids and them being really strong to fight against horse archers being decent again. Kafein is right, problem with HA is that there's no proper counter and that's why it must stay UP and underused.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 11, 2012, 12:14:07 am
We'll need a lot of ranged/melee hybrids and them being really strong to fight against horse archers being decent again. Kafein is right, problem with HA is that there's no proper counter and that's why it must stay UP and underused.

Actually all ranged are counter, specially crossbows and archers. Open field - good archer vs good HA at mid range+, archer will always win.

This small buff is by no means a proper buff that will make a difference to HA numbers or tangible effectiveness
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 11, 2012, 02:24:45 am
As far as I'm concerned anyone who hasn't played HA since the nerfs, let alone ever, should have no part in this discussion. We are ruining your fun? Well you are ruining ours by constantly moaning and demanding nerfs so HA is UP. There are hardly any HA and I bet you get shot by an HAs arrow as melee maybe once in a several hour play through. I certainly never notice them as melee. Therefore it really shouldn't be an issue for the smallest buff. Complaining so much just demonstrates how sore you are over it.

As for those saying zomg but this is a melee focused game. It isn't. Its a medieval era war game. That encompasses every aspect of that era. If it was meant to be melee focused it would be. Just because there's directional combat does not in any way make it the focus of thhe game. Plenty of people would play it even if there wasn't a full directional system. I don't know any other game that includes HA like this so to me, that is the unique selling point to me as a person. Yours is melee, mine is HA. Both are as valid.

So is a tiny buff really that bad? Its not extra damage, its only slightly more accuracy. I get the feeling a lot of guys are coming in here and complaining without even looking at the OP. As a result this has gone way beyond the OPs idea. Its simply become a hate against HA thread because we are scared of them getting to much damage and killing everyone and everything. Such an idea is idiotic. Its a small balance change that would be nice and is needed for HA but that I doubt anyone not playing HA would ever notice.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 11, 2012, 02:34:03 am
Of course its a melee game. No one would give two shits about this if it was released with half assed melee, like with ranged. Look at any reviews for M&B, its all about the melee combat.

There are mods that flesh out the ranged side of the game, to make it ranged focussed. I don't go there and try to push a melee agenda, and people shouldn't push ranged agendas here either. The main draw of this particular mod is that ranged is toned down from native. I don't see why people would even want to play here for fps style combat when you have native and the other ranged mods. If theres a better melee mod then maybe I should look into that, but for now all I have is cRPG
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 11, 2012, 02:47:39 am
Crpg is more balanced ranged wise than native. And ranged isn't the only thing toned down. Lots of melee is as well. People are forever complaining that melee on crpg is to slowl. The draw of crpg as a mod is the rpg part. You can make your own build and char. As for warband I've never cared for the melee. The draw for me was the HA which I always played in SP and MP native. I'm simply saying there is so much more to this than just melee. Sure melee makes up a lot of the players but it always would do and should do. Ranged over is just as integral a part of the game. Plenty of people would still play it without full directional combat. I didn't know of any other game that was in this setting as a FP game. Only mods for other games.

That's why I'm not saying make everything ranged. As far as I'm concerned crpg is the best all round balanced and populated mod. It has something for everyone. But that doesn't mean the balancing is right 100% and that's why such a small change would be well plaaced.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 11, 2012, 03:02:52 am
Best populated? It's my opinion that ranged has near killed the popularity of this mod. Who can blame them though? You can get xp/gold while just standing around shooting in a passive style. When we had roof camping every ranged wanted to camp up there. The game shouldn't enable such passive gamestyles in the first place. The more that can be done to combat this (including mobile ranged platforms like HA) the better

You would have no people to shoot at without direction combat btw. As someone else said, its parasitic gameplay and drives the main playerbase to other games.

In order to have suitable counters to buffed HA we would need to drive the mod even further towards ranged style gameplay. The game is going towards hybridisation anyway though I guess. Sooner or later there will be no point in playing pure melee, might as well grab some ranged as well like throwing or crossbows and play like a standard fps rather than PVP combat game

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Yamun on December 11, 2012, 03:39:33 am
Of course its a melee game. No one would give two shits about this if it was released with half assed melee, like with ranged. Look at any reviews for M&B, its all about the melee combat.

There are mods that flesh out the ranged side of the game, to make it ranged focussed. I don't go there and try to push a melee agenda, and people shouldn't push ranged agendas here either. The main draw of this particular mod is that ranged is toned down from native. I don't see why people would even want to play here for fps style combat when you have native and the other ranged mods. If theres a better melee mod then maybe I should look into that, but for now all I have is cRPG

Best populated? It's my opinion that ranged has near killed the popularity of this mod. Who can blame them though? You can get xp/gold while just standing around shooting in a passive style. When we had roof camping every ranged wanted to camp up there. The game shouldn't enable such passive gamestyles in the first place. The more that can be done to combat this (including mobile ranged platforms like HA) the better

You would have no people to shoot at without direction combat btw. As someone else said, its parasitic gameplay and drives the main playerbase to other games.

In order to have suitable counters to buffed HA we would need to drive the mod even further towards ranged style gameplay. The game is going towards hybridisation anyway though I guess. Sooner or later there will be no point in playing pure melee, might as well grab some ranged as well like throwing or crossbows and play like a standard fps rather than PVP combat game

Okay, I can't sit here quiet any longer just reading this. Do me a favor and ask a person from cRPG who created the mod to comment on this forum that cRPG is all melee based combat. To suggest that is only saying that your style of game play is correct and all others are incorrect. If cRPG was meant to be melee based only, guess what... there would be no ranged period. There would also be options for the mods of the servers to turn off ranged weapons. They toned down the ranged side of the game due to it being unrealistic compared to the pin point accuracy people could have in native.

I personally play a horse archer, but that isn't the only class I will play. In my own personal opinion, I see a lot of melee based weapons that are OP in themselves. All those blunt based knock down weapons that overhand strikes are pretty OP as well.

As far as HA go, I remember plenty of times I was shot off from my horse by the other team's archers without being able to land arrows back against them due to the nerf. Honestly, to suggest that a class doesn't have a counter is the most uneducated thing I have heard. Roll up a HA, ride around as one, then you can have a more understanding in how it works.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 11, 2012, 03:53:53 am
Knockdown is OP against what, other melee? Thats like saying HA is OP compared to HC. Melee vs melee is fundamentally a whole other beast when it comes to balance, and I would argue anyway that knockdown is if anything something that benefits ranged the most since nearly every ranged I see packs a blunt knockdown weapon of some kind. As a melee guy I would be very happy to remove knockdown entirely or make it purely situational rather than % based

They toned down ranged for realism? Realism is no where near a main consideration for balance in this mod. Ask chadz himself:

"Also, we don't do changes because we want the game to be more realistic. We do changes because we feel they are right. If they fit with realism, that's great, and it's also our guideline, but almost never the reason for a change. We are not trying do create a simulator, we are trying to create a game." Or look at comments from cmp about the realism area of the forum

Ranged is toned down from native because native is pure ridiculousness. I wouldn't touch that for more than a few mins in battle. Everyone has ranged it seems. Part of the reason people want to play ranged here is because they don't want to get shot in native, they want to shoot slow moving melee

The counter to HA should be more ranged? Always the counter to ranged is more ranged. Its whats killing the game. The counter to ranged should be that arrows don't penetrate melee armour so well, so ranged kills each other or other horses

Anyway just some rambling thoughts, I'm getting passed caring about this game
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Yamun on December 11, 2012, 03:57:28 am
Knockdown is OP against what, other melee? Thats like saying HA is OP compared to HC. Melee vs melee is fundamentally a whole other beast when it comes to balance, and I would argue anyway that knockdown is if anything something that benefits ranged the most since nearly every ranged I see packs a blunt knockdown weapon of some kind. As a melee guy I would be very happy to remove knockdown entirely or make it purely situational rather than % based

They toned down ranged for realism? Realism is no where near a main consideration for balance in this mod. Ask chadz himself:

"Also, we don't do changes because we want the game to be more realistic. We do changes because we feel they are right. If they fit with realism, that's great, and it's also our guideline, but almost never the reason for a change. We are not trying do create a simulator, we are trying to create a game." Or look at comments from cmp about the realism area of the forum

Ranged is toned down from native because native is pure ridiculousness. I wouldn't touch that for more than a few mins in battle. Everyone has ranged it seems. Part of the reason people want to play ranged here is because they don't want to get shot in native, they want to shoot slow moving melee

The counter to HA should be more ranged? Always the counter to ranged is more ranged. Its whats killing the game. The counter to ranged should be that arrows don't penetrate melee armour so well, so ranged kills each other or other horses

Anyway just some rambling thoughts, I'm getting passed caring about this game

I am starting to wonder if you can read and comprehend what others are saying. I did mentioned I don't just play as a HA... which means prehaps I also might play an infantry of some sort.... imagine that... Honestly, read before you comment.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 11, 2012, 04:00:35 am
How is that relevant? I didn't say you don't play other classes at all..Why should I care if you don't always play HA or HC?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Yamun on December 11, 2012, 04:07:54 am
What is relevant here is that there will always be something that someone else considers OP. The answer isn't for more people to be become archers, but to protect the ones they have already. I will admit the ones that camp and hide are beyond hope... but there are some that follow the melee and try to cover. Prehaps giving them cover as well can help. I actually enjoy killing HA when on foot... be it a bow, throwing axes to their horses, or stabbing with a spear.

On the flip side, being the HA can be frustrating as well because people can't handle dealing with them.. so the class gets nerfed. Aim for the horse... the bloody HA isn't the best on foot. Half the time I am playing my horse archer, I don't even bring my horse with me so I can melee as my dismounted horse archer.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 11, 2012, 04:26:51 am
If ranged role was to counter cav I wouldn't mind so much a buff to HA. As it stands ranged is a counter to everything and the counter to ranged is simply have better ranged players or more of them. I can protect my ranged, and I do when I feel the need, but melee need to go and play their own role too. It doesn't take much melee to defend your ranged. Its not like they need baby sitting all round. I will when necessary, but usually if I camp near ranged its because I don't want to commit to a fight yet. Melee needs to push positions as a group when the timing is right rather than camp with their ranged for the most part

I would make ranged damage a separate damage type (not cut or pierce) then give melee style armour a separate stat (deflection or absorption) that reduces damage against ranged. Ranged could be anti cav and anti ranged, yet could still able to hold their own against melee weapons. So ranged would do minimal damage to melee and not stagger, but could still have decent protection against cut/pierce like a normal melee guy.

Ranged is the be all end all when it comes to counters. They should counter ranged and cav rather than melee too imo

If this were the case I wouldn't care so much about a HA buff
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Yamun on December 11, 2012, 05:06:00 am
In response to your comment to damage of ranged, I agree. This is based on some do so much more that is it unreal. xbows are supposed to do insane amount of damage compared to bows. They already do. This isn't about damage they do but to remove the Horse Archery -10 wpp penalty so HA don't suffer on horseback as badly with their aiming. As it stands now, my character is lvl 30. I'm balanced between melee and archery. Focus is on archery yes, but enough melee points so don't suck as bad. As the opening post mentioned, the reticule is rather high at speeds. Being still or barely moving seems to be best chance to land arrows where we want compared to xbow users and foot archers. Another point to mention, arrows do no damage to heavy armored melee. After 10 arrows.. I and only maybe two show. I rarely SHOOT at melee due to their armor. My arrows can't inflict damage to them. This isn't just plate armor. I ride around and fire at other archers, and cavs.

Strength:15
Agility:20

One Handed:52
Two Handed:1
Polearm:1
Throwing:1
Crossbow:1
Archery:149

Weapon Master:6
Athletics:6
Riding:6
Iron Flesh:0
Shield:0
Horse Archery:3
Power Strike:4
Power Draw:5
Power Throw:0

I use a fine tatar bow with tatar arrows. Wasting arrows on melee ground troops in their armor isn't worth it for me. I do no damage to them as a horse archer. Best I can do is annoy them.

Edit: This is also assuming can hit now with full speed after the nerf lol. I do use a Steppe Horse. I know others use higher classed and speed horses, but maneuvering is bit more important than speed with all the lancers and archers aiming at me.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 11, 2012, 01:51:34 pm
To all HA here : I am not complaining about an HA buff, I am commenting on the stupidity of berserkadin.

What I said in my previous post are statements that I think apply no matter what the situation of HA is. At the moment HA are UP so I'm fine with an HA buff. I'm not fine however, with 10 HA roaming a battle server, cause that's simply not fun for everybody else playing. But we haven't reached this point back yet so do whatever you want.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 11, 2012, 03:59:36 pm
To all HA here : I am not complaining about an HA buff, I am commenting on the stupidity of berserkadin.

What I said in my previous post are statements that I think apply no matter what the situation of HA is. At the moment HA are UP so I'm fine with an HA buff. I'm not fine however, with 10 HA roaming a battle server, cause that's simply not fun for everybody else playing. But we haven't reached this point back yet so do whatever you want.

10 cavalry swarming an infantryman with constant horse bumps isn't any fun either, but since the game is called Mount and Blade, your arguments are pre-pwned, else there would be crying about them too!
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 11, 2012, 04:13:37 pm
As far as I'm concerned anyone who hasn't played HA since the nerfs, let alone ever, should have no part in this discussion. We are ruining your fun? Well you are ruining ours by constantly moaning and demanding nerfs so HA is UP. There are hardly any HA and I bet you get shot by an HAs arrow as melee maybe once in a several hour play through. I certainly never notice them as melee. Therefore it really shouldn't be an issue for the smallest buff. Complaining so much just demonstrates how sore you are over it.

As for those saying zomg but this is a melee focused game. It isn't. Its a medieval era war game. That encompasses every aspect of that era. If it was meant to be melee focused it would be. Just because there's directional combat does not in any way make it the focus of thhe game. Plenty of people would play it even if there wasn't a full directional system. I don't know any other game that includes HA like this so to me, that is the unique selling point to me as a person. Yours is melee, mine is HA. Both are as valid.

So is a tiny buff really that bad? Its not extra damage, its only slightly more accuracy. I get the feeling a lot of guys are coming in here and complaining without even looking at the OP. As a result this has gone way beyond the OPs idea. Its simply become a hate against HA thread because we are scared of them getting to much damage and killing everyone and everything. Such an idea is idiotic. Its a small balance change that would be nice and is needed for HA but that I doubt anyone not playing HA would ever notice.

Kiting archers was a big problem and everyone thought it was terribly unfun, except of course the archers themselves. They got a nerf that made them slow as hell because ammo now has alot of weight.

What is a HA if not a SUPER-kiting archer?  A infantry class has zero chance to kill one,  at least melee cav has to get in range to fight, thus giving the infantry guy a chance to retaliate.
This is why only HA players want HA buffs, and everyone else really doesnt. And considering the extremly low % of HA players, compared to the rest of the population, im asking you once again.

What is best for the game as a whole? Because having a HA class that is actually effective, without any form of counterclass whatsoever, has a really negative impact on the game and the community as a whole.




Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 11, 2012, 04:33:13 pm
The counter to HA should be more ranged? Always the counter to ranged is more ranged. Its whats killing the game. The counter to ranged should be that arrows don't penetrate melee armour so well, so ranged kills each other or other horses

O please. Ranged is not killing the game or it would have been dead when I first joined when archers were ultra accurate and fast compared to now. There are less players for a whole host of reasons, largely because this is a bloody old game in reality. Add to the fact that people here have played 1000's of hours of crpg and naturally they are going to stop at some point. It has 0 to do with how much ranged there are in servers.

Kiting archers was a big problem and everyone thought it was terribly unfun, except of course the archers themselves. They got a nerf that made them slow as hell because ammo now has alot of weight.

What is a HA if not a SUPER-kiting archer?  A infantry class has zero chance to kill one,  at least melee cav has to get in range to fight, thus giving the infantry guy a chance to retaliate.
This is why only HA players want HA buffs, and everyone else really doesnt. And considering the extremly low % of HA players, compared to the rest of the population, im asking you once again.

What is best for the game as a whole? Because having a HA class that is actually effective, without any form of counterclass whatsoever, has a really negative impact on the game and the community as a whole.

HA has tons of counters and if people keep insisting they don't they need to follow some HA around or play some alts and focus on killing them. It's no where near as hard as people make out. All you need is 1 decent hit (speed bonus insta death) or 2 warbow arrows.

The problem isn't that HA don't have counters. The problem is that the players who can counter them don't see them as a big enough threat, or see them as to difficult a target to bother with. That is why HA frequently survive till the end. If even 1 archer on a team made it his game to shoot down an HA's horse he could do so within a few arrows, particularly if the speed bonus was there. The make up of the maps means that's there's plenty of tight spots to catch an HA in villages ect as well for melee. There's no real excuse.

Best for the game as a whole is to give a little buff to HA. It'll help us out and you won't even notice it so don't spit some bollocks about it having a negative impact. HA suffered a long time ago and has sucked it up with minimal complaining, unlike most of the other classes here. So why not have a little buff for HA? There are few enough of us. The reason most people don't want it is because they've only been on the receiving end, never the other way around. I've done both so at least I'm in a position to comment.

O and just because other HA are posting their builds...

Level 31
Strength:16
Agility: 24

One Handed: 12 (for the lols)
Archery: 172

Weapon Master: 8
Riding: 7
Horse Archery: 4
Power Draw: 5

Mine is a pure accuracy build pretty much the same as Cris bar the PS.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 11, 2012, 04:58:29 pm
Well, I am actually not against removing the 10-WPF-penalty per HA point (or whatever the mechanic is, as long as it is of about the same extend like this one here). I am okay with it.

But please stop telling us that we won't feel it:

EITHER we won't feel any difference because you will still have crappy accuracy, so you don't hit us more than before, which means it didn't help you at all,

OR it will help you by improving your hit rate, which means we will feel the difference.


It is okay for me to buff your WPF a bit, all I want is you to stop with the "it doesn't make a difference" bullshit. EVERYTHING makes a difference. Yeah, tweaking some stats by tiny values is indeed a tiny change, but do it a few times and you will have some moderate changes.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 11, 2012, 05:03:56 pm
No you won't feel it. As I said before you probably get shot by or encounter an HA as a melee once in a play time of a couple of hours. Unless you're one of those who consistently rambo's and gets caught unaware, if you play with the team, and the servers populated I doubt you'll notice the difference as most HA spread their arrows. Sure it'll hopefully improve hit rate in a 1vs1 situation but these are rare and the arrows already do little damage, especially if you have higher tier armour. So that's why I said you won't notice it. Because I really doubt any 1 player will except for the HA who's doing the shooting.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 11, 2012, 05:15:38 pm
Double post but worth it:

Just joined server for the first time in months and get shot down off my horse by 3 arrows from a Rus Bow at considerable range. So much for HA not having counters.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on December 11, 2012, 05:42:26 pm
A infantry class has zero chance to kill one

i call bullshit, how about this

you pick a horse archer, i pick a melee guy, they go to a server that is setup just like eu_1, best of 3 rounds

if the melee guy that i picked wins 2 rounds you pay him 500k gold, if the horse archer that you picked wins 2 rounds i will pay him 500k gold, your up for a bet or will you chicken out and stop spreading your bullshit ?

what will it be Tindel?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Arrowblood on December 11, 2012, 05:45:06 pm
i call bullshit, how about this

you pick a horse archer, i pick a melee guy, they go to a server that is setup just like eu_1, best of 3 rounds

if the melee guy that i picked wins 2 rounds you pay him 500k gold, if the horse archer that you picked wins 2 rounds i will pay him 500k gold, your up for a bet or will you chicken out and stop spreading your bullshit ?

what will it be Tindel?
just dont talk with him he plays anyway only siege.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 11, 2012, 05:54:38 pm
10 cavalry swarming an infantryman with constant horse bumps isn't any fun either, but since the game is called Mount and Blade, your arguments are pre-pwned, else there would be crying about them too!

Okay so I suppose it's fine to compare 10 cav killing an infantry guy caught alone and in the open, and 10 HA peppering an undefined number of melee enemies.

Besides, I can always retaliate at people trying to bump me, as long as they aren't locking me into blocking, with a bow or xbow. I can't retaliate at ranged without having a ranged weapon myself.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Falka on December 11, 2012, 06:00:14 pm
(click to show/hide)

5 guys in a row killed by HA :wink:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Azlanek on December 11, 2012, 06:47:41 pm
HA power!
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 11, 2012, 06:56:30 pm
No you won't feel it. As I said before you probably get shot by or encounter an HA as a melee once in a play time of a couple of hours. Unless you're one of those who consistently rambo's and gets caught unaware, if you play with the team, and the servers populated I doubt you'll notice the difference as most HA spread their arrows. Sure it'll hopefully improve hit rate in a 1vs1 situation but these are rare and the arrows already do little damage, especially if you have higher tier armour. So that's why I said you won't notice it. Because I really doubt any 1 player will except for the HA who's doing the shooting.

But it's exactly those 1 on 1 where HAs are experienced as being so annoying. And the arrows doing little damage is no argument I can accept either.

Again, I am not against a small buff for your class, but if you reason it it needs to be a real reason (like: [archer accuracy] x [size of their nose] > [HA accuracy] x [sze of their nose], and that's why HA damage needs to be buffed), and not "You won't notice it", because to me that's equal to "Oh come on, pleeeeeeez!".

A nice deal would be that every point in HA raises the damage your horse receives by melee weapons by 5%. You get shot most of the time, a melee character will kill your horse only once in a couple of hours, when you get cought unaware when playing with the team or go rambo, so you won't actually notice it.  :wink:

Overdriven, I am not discussing this to annoy you or to show how right I am, it's just because I don't want other lobbies to try the same trick. You won't notice a slight missile speed or accuracy increase for throwing weapons. You won't notice stronger shields. You won't notice 1 or two points bump damage more. And so on. The list can be extended as you please.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leshma on December 11, 2012, 06:59:56 pm
Also, would like to point out that we already have balance discussion subforum...

And no, I won't support you unless you support my hybrids :)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Berserkadin on December 11, 2012, 10:30:27 pm
To all HA here : I am not complaining about an HA buff, I am commenting on the stupidity of berserkadin.

What I said in my previous post are statements that I think apply no matter what the situation of HA is. At the moment HA are UP so I'm fine with an HA buff. I'm not fine however, with 10 HA roaming a battle server, cause that's simply not fun for everybody else playing. But we haven't reached this point back yet so do whatever you want.

Well it felt right to counter your stupidity with more hostile stupidity, clearly you won't be able to see past your very closed perspective.

Ranged didn't kill the mod, all the whiny ass QQ:ers who just yelled for nerf after nerf killed the mod. Maybe you should go see a therapist and get over yourself instead of destroying everyones else fun. I don't like delaying HA's, thats just griefing and being an ass, but should you nerf a whole class because some people behave like idiots? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Something that could make melee more worthwhile would be to speed up melee, since now its so goddamn slow.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 11, 2012, 10:40:33 pm
Also, would like to point out that we already have balance discussion subforum...

And no, I won't support you unless you support my hybrids :)

But much more people look at this forums.

I'm all for hybrids, I loved the old days when everyone could do ranged and melee if they wished :-) Isn't doing what you want the point of cRPG after all? no set classes? I'd be nice to see that again
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 11, 2012, 10:59:04 pm
Well it felt right to counter your stupidity with more hostile stupidity, clearly you won't be able to see past your very closed perspective.

I feel I should just throw that back to you, but that would be childish.

Ranged didn't kill the mod

I never said it did and we agree it didn't.

, all the whiny ass QQ:ers who just yelled for nerf after nerf killed the mod.

Well of course not changing anything when the playerbase evolves is proved to be the best strategy. Duh.

Maybe you should go see a therapist and get over yourself instead of destroying everyones else fun.

Again, who is this mysterious "everyone" ? Not that I lobby for destroying anyone's fun in the first place. I lobby for improving it. If that means some classes that turn the game into hell for others had to be hurt in the process, so be it.

I don't like delaying HA's, thats just griefing and being an ass, but should you nerf a whole class because some people behave like idiots? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Until we find a way to discriminate between people being dicks or not (hint : we won't), changing how the game works in an objective way is the only solution. Besides, HA are always being dicks, unlike most other classes. For example, not all tanks only use great mauls and only camp at the top of a ladder. However, all HA do shoot at defenseless melee and cav. There's admittedly a difference between HAs that will stalk someone until he dies, shooting while standing still just far enough not to be reachable and those that ride and shoot at different targets, but still.

Something that could make melee more worthwhile would be to speed up melee, since now its so goddamn slow.

Okay. I don't see how this is related to the rest of your post though.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Berserkadin on December 11, 2012, 11:11:27 pm
I feel I should just throw that back to you, but that would be childish.

I never said it did and we agree it didn't.

Well of course not changing anything when the playerbase evolves is proved to be the best strategy. Duh.

Again, who is this mysterious "everyone" ? Not that I lobby for destroying anyone's fun in the first place. I lobby for improving it. If that means some classes that turn the game into hell for others had to be hurt in the process, so be it.

Until we find a way to discriminate between people being dicks or not (hint : we won't), changing how the game works in an objective way is the only solution. Besides, HA are always being dicks, unlike most other classes. For example, not all tanks only use great mauls and only camp at the top of a ladder. However, all HA do shoot at defenseless melee and cav. There's admittedly a difference between HAs that will stalk someone until he dies, shooting while standing still just far enough not to be reachable and those that ride and shoot at different targets, but still.

Okay. I don't see how this is related to the rest of your post though.

I thought we had rules to discriminate between people being dicks or not. No HA's aren't always being dicks, thats your opinion. I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but guess how fun it is for me who barely got any looms to play as a HA, you should try it out. Barely doing any damage, getting raped by other ranged and cavalry. Because of people like you lobbying against one of the weakest classes in the game because you find their playstyle to be dicky. Lancers "destroy" my fun, I used to have an agenda against them, but now I just join siege and have fun instead. If you want people to destroy your fragile sense of having fun, you will surely find a way. And it seems like a lot of people, just relax and get over it.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 11, 2012, 11:54:41 pm
Until we find a way to discriminate between people being dicks or not (hint : we won't), changing how the game works in an objective way is the only solution.

MOTD was changed to always spawn. Rules changed so that ranged can't search for ammo at end of round as last player.

Hint: You take the changes, pocket them, and pretend nothing changed so you can say nothing will ever be done.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 11, 2012, 11:55:36 pm
MOTD was changed to always spawn. Rules changed so that ranged can't collect ammo at end of round as last player.


Apparently this does not apply to throwers, which on NA kite as bad as everyone else...
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 11, 2012, 11:58:17 pm

Apparently this does not apply to throwers...

The rules state you can't go searching for ammo. This prevents someone for kiting forever with the excuse of "looking for ammo".

Throwers like Chucky are not searching for ammo. They are picking it up 10 feet away, right where they threw it. There is no searching going on. There is no endless drawing of the round while they round around.

Common sense and what the rules are written to address. They matter  :idea:

Let me give you a perfect example:

Quote
NOT OK: hiding when last man standing (i.e. delaying)

Know how this can be applied? You the last 2 hander hiding behind a tree avoiding arrows while waiting to MOTD to pop? Oh hell no, no hiding. Get out into the open so you can be shot down.

We don't apply it that way. Why? It does not pass the "common sense" standard, nor is it what the rule was designed to address. And that is how rules are applied, as they should be.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 12, 2012, 12:57:12 pm
I thought we had rules to discriminate between people being dicks or not. No HA's aren't always being dicks, thats your opinion. I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but guess how fun it is for me who barely got any looms to play as a HA, you should try it out. Barely doing any damage, getting raped by other ranged and cavalry. Because of people like you lobbying against one of the weakest classes in the game because you find their playstyle to be dicky. Lancers "destroy" my fun, I used to have an agenda against them, but now I just join siege and have fun instead. If you want people to destroy your fragile sense of having fun, you will surely find a way. And it seems like a lot of people, just relax and get over it.

Looms don't make it much better.

And that is the whole point about asking the devs to take away the -10wpp per HA point. With loomed equipment and an accurate build, HA cant get even close to anything called accurate and are penalized when not our horses.

For example. An Arabian horn bow user with 4 HA has already spent at least 11 skill points to shoot on horse, plus another 8 for WM to in theory shoot well. That's 19 skill points, 11 of which are useless off horse in battle, which can die really quickly, and not even used in siege or strat...

HA already pay 11 extra skill points, 11! (some even more points) to shoot off horseback, maybe with some accuracy, why should we be penalized for spending those points? with the penalty we will still be inaccurate, but at least we'll be more useful on foot and be a bit less random off horseback.

Making WPP reductions for HA skill is like making melee cav's athletics or speed in general because for part of the game they are really quickly, or reduce their damage on foot because they can't fight on the ground for some magical reason.

The current so called balance is based on hate towards the class, not on real balance, and something must be done about it. --- As other HA and I have mentioned before, be it a buff, or the elimination of ranged cav in the game, something must be done, because nerf for hate is plainly unfair in a system that is design to build a character as you want it, we are not playing outside the rules of the game, why should we be penalized?

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 12, 2012, 03:48:19 pm
The current so called balance is based on hate towards the class, not on real balance, and something must be done about it. --- As other HA and I have mentioned before, be it a buff, or the elimination of ranged cav in the game, something must be done, because nerf for hate is plainly unfair in a system that is design to build a character as you want it, we are not playing outside the rules of the game, why should we be penalized?

Actually hate does represent a factor for balancing. Everyone has a subjektive perception, and good game developers want to take care that the game is perceived as entertaining and motivating. If there is hate towards a certain aspect of the game, something is wrong.

Hate origins in most cases from frustration, for example dying without having made a mistake. Developers should always address issues generating frustration, and should change them. Sometimes they don't, if you play the Ascalon Catacombs in Guild Wars 2, for example, but in most cases it's enough to reduce the difficulty and everything's fine again.

In this case, the frustration comes from a small part of the community affecting another, bigger part of it. This makes changes difficult, because the usual solution of "making things easier" isn't working 100% any more. The final boss of a dungeon doesn't mind if he is getting nerfed, he won't be hurt or complain, because he consists of a lot of code, some animations, and a model with a texture. But players getting nerfed is always a bad thing. The Developers actually decided to stick to the "make things easier"-solution nonetheless, simply ignoring the smaller part of the community, which is sad.

On the other hand, making the source of the frustration and hatred stronger again, would also raise the level of hate, which is also unacceptable. It's a classical Middle East situation: whatever you do, there will be hate. If you find a good solution to the HA dilemma, I bet you can also make Israelis and Palestinians friends again. It's of about the same difficulty.

HA already pay 11 extra skill points, 11! (some even more points) to shoot off horseback, maybe with some accuracy, why should we be penalized for spending those points? without? the penalty we will still be inaccurate, but at least we'll be more useful on foot and be a bit less random off horseback.

Those 11 skills points spent make the character more "effective" (doesn't need to mean more deadly) in a lot of situations than most, I dare to say all other skill point combinations. To compensate for this, you are being penalized.

I don't know why the -10 WPF penalty does also apply on foot, but as I think about it, HAs enjoy such an enormous extend of flexibility, making them some decent AGI archers on foot would even increase that huge advantage.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 12, 2012, 06:41:22 pm
Kings of KD video 2:04 lancer kills HA what is this shit? A counter? Wtf! (also at 3:06, 3:24)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 12, 2012, 06:45:07 pm
Kings of KD video 2:04 lancer kills HA what is this shit? A counter? Wtf! (also at 3:06, 3:24)

Nope, just a bad horse archer.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 12, 2012, 06:49:07 pm
The rules state you can't go searching for ammo. This prevents someone for kiting forever with the excuse of "looking for ammo".

Throwers like Chucky are not searching for ammo. They are picking it up 10 feet away, right where they threw it. There is no searching going on. There is no endless drawing of the round while they round around.

Common sense and what the rules are written to address. They matter  :idea:


Honestly, it really depends. If he throws misses and picks it up 10 seconds later that is one thing. BUT, I have seen Chucky as the last person alive kite players around the entire map  for over a minute to get back to that spot where his throwing axe is.

Edit:oops double post.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: papageorgio on December 12, 2012, 06:49:26 pm
Kings of KD video 2:04 lancer kills HA what is this shit? A counter? Wtf! (also at 3:06, 3:24)

Shittttttt, we target horse archers because they are such easy kills. Only thing that even comes close to stopping us is Pole-arms and as you can see in the video, even that doesn't work sometimes.

 
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 12, 2012, 07:21:16 pm
Kings of KD video 2:04 lancer kills HA what is this shit? A counter? Wtf! (also at 3:06, 3:24)

HAs are known for being great light cavalry hunters, and now you claim their prey is suddenly their counter, because of a single kill in a video where a HA who was only riding around in trot allowed a lancer to approach him from a 45° angle from the front?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Come on! 3:06 made the same mistake like 2:04, and 3:24 was even standing still.

I can go and dismount most of their cavalry and I've already taken an advantage away from them without getting any kills.

True enough. That's why I focus almost entirely on enemy cavalry. They get very pissed off when you shoot down their horses.

the HA's whole reason to exist is to annoy whining Infantry and enemy cavalry.

The way I choose to play HA tends to be far more aggressive than most HA would go for. I focus more on keeping my teammates safe from enemy lancers, or give a -hopefully- helpful bump to those in need.

Or do you want to say that all classes have a chance of killing their counters? Well, sometimes they don't. Like infantry vs. HA, because the HA needs to make a mistake to allow infantry to kill them, unless we have special circumstances like a hidden inf, HA being out of arrows or something like that.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 12, 2012, 07:27:09 pm
HAs are known for being great light cavalry hunters, and now you claim their prey is suddenly their counter, because of a single kill in a video where a HA who was only riding around in trot allowed a lancer to approach him from a 45° angle from the front?

Come on! 3:06 made the same mistake like 2:04, and 3:24 was even standing still.

Or do you want to say that all classes have a chance of killing their counters? Well, sometimes they don't. Like infantry vs. HA, because the HA needs to make a mistake to allow infantry to kill them, unless we have special circumstances like a hidden inf, HA being out of arrows or something like that.

3:06 got caught on a hill against faster horses. But regardless I am simply saying that any lancer who knows what he's doing can kill an HA. Ranged counter, lancers counter, a decent infantry can counter. Just saying that this bull shit about HA being near invulnerable is a load of crap. A melee would be near invulnerable if he never missed a block. But he will make a mistake and die. Likewise for HA. Most people die because they make a mistake. So pointing out that they make a mistake means bugger all. Fact is saying they don't have counters is a load of crap. When there's a single HA being targeted by multiple lancers it takes a ridiculous amount of awareness to survive it. Even one lancer can kill HA. I used to see Kerrigan and Leed manage it with ease. As well as a number of other lancers.

Infantry it's harder. But most HA barely dent upper medium-high tier armour. So as long as you have protection you don't need to worry to much. Then there's the agi 2h jumping 10ft in the air and several metres forward to slice your head off. There are plenty of ways to counter HA it just takes a brain which apparently many people are lacking.

Fact is yes I love to shoot down cav. But that doesn't mean that's its not fing difficult. When there's a lot of cav it takes a lot of weaving, judging lancers angles and turn rates to survive. 1 lance strike will kill in a cav fight against an HA so one mistake and your dead. Just because we can kill their horses doesn't mean it isn't difficult, especially with the countless enclosed village maps where you have warbows, arbalests, obstacles, hills and infantry to deal with as well.

I will say on open maps the HA's ability against enemy cav is unmatched. And that is where I get my highest scores. But those maps are few and far between in crpg. By open maps I'm talking almost no obstacles like those open desert maps of open plains.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 12, 2012, 07:45:28 pm
Just saying that this bull shit about HA being near invulnerable is a load of crap. A melee would be near invulnerable if he never missed a block. But he will make a mistake and die. Likewise for HA. Most people die because they make a mistake.

 Fact is saying they don't have counters is a load of crap. When there's a single HA being targeted by multiple lancers it takes a ridiculous amount of awareness to survive it. Even one lancer can kill HA. I used to see Kerrigan and Leed manage it with ease. As well as a number of other lancers.

That's not my definition of a counter. Someone who can kill you as soon as you make a mistake is not a counter. Someone who needs to make a mistake to NOT kill somebody is a counter.

For example the mistake already happened when being chased by several lancers. Of course it's difficult to be aware of several opponents at the same time.

And honestly, a single lancers can't do a HA any harm when he is aware, unless the difference in riding skill and horse speed is tremendous. And even then the lancers has no chance when the HA knows what he does.

I played a STF HA for some time, I hope Cris remembers it. In 1 on 1 HA duels I even managed to kill him a few times, which means I am not that terribad, I hope. I used to die only to ranged, the only times when I got killed in melee was when I didn't pay attention as I played carelessly, or when I tried to risk something, just for fun. If you stay at the edges of the map it's not difficult to be aware of your surroundings, just pick off the targets at the very flank, and the further the battle goes on, the more players will be down, until there are only a few scattered survivors, and that's the time when you can ride around and hunt them down. For the first two thirds of the round the biggest skill is not getting any attention for longer time, which is easy as pie if you consider the mobility and the range of HAs.

Infantry it's harder. But most HA barely dent upper medium-high tier armour. So as long as you have protection you don't need to worry to much. Then there's the agi 2h jumping 10ft in the air and several metres forward to slice your head off. There are plenty of ways to counter HA it just takes a brain which apparently many people are lacking.

HA's have longer reach than "several meters" + weapon length... Dying to something like that is 100% avoidable.

________________________________________

I think in the following days I will create a STF HA again and make a few fraps videos, of how a relative HA noob dies most of the time. And yes, of course I will play carefully and defensively, because it's the most effective and thus most annoying way of playing a HA.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Overdriven on December 12, 2012, 08:00:02 pm
The best HA's ride close shotgunning their targets to ensure a hit. Improves damage and accuracy. Same tactic is employed against lancers riding at them head on. You need the shot to cancel their attack though and many HA's ride like this out of necessity and the thrill but it does lead to inf being able to kill you if you miss a shot and that is more down to poor accuracy than skill.

Tbh I don't think there are many classes that can counter another directly without one side making the mistake. A 2h gets shot by ranged? Should have stuck with his shielders or noted where the enemy ranged was. Got stabbed up the arse by a lancer? You weren't paying attention. Get shot off your horse. You were to close to enemy ranged and risking to much.

Most people die due to mistakes they make. Sure some classes are better against others but I don't think there are any direct counters as such the way you make them sound. Every class has a chance against another, particularly if skill is taken into account.

Writing this quickly whilst playing dota 2 so might be randomness to it.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Geon on December 12, 2012, 08:08:15 pm
By the way, I don't appreciate being misquoted. By that statement I meant overall I like to keep close to friendly infantry, and archers (especially archers). Seeing that archers tend to get bum rushed by enemy cavalry 25 seconds into a round. Or they're targeted by shield walling infantry.

Now look, That's everyone's job. Lancers stab people to dwindle their numbers, shield guys go after archers (or protect their 2h/polearm guys from arrows/bolts). My job is to shoot those oncoming shielders in the side or at least run them over.

Take HA away from the picture and you pretty much  just have archers trying to kite (except that's a bit harder now with the increased arrow weight...), and eventually getting steel-picked most likely. By no means am I invulnerable or do I only die because "I made a mistake". I believe Overdriven covered that pretty well.

In regards to fighting enemy cavalry. If it's a big map then there's going to be a big storm of horses off in some corner duking it out. You can join in, yeah. However being that HA horses Steppe, Desert, and Arabian (even at Champion) are all SLOWER than the horses commonly used by lancers or 1h/2h cavalry. You will find yourself having a tough time maneuvering away from those 4 or 5 guys that just want you DEAD.

Being a horse archer anywhere is risky you will always be (like any other class) an arrows shot or a stab from behind from death. Every class has their strengths, and weaknesses. Every class has their jobs.

If you're playing 2hander/pole (not using pike). In an open field cav-map then you're asking for a challenge or a fight. Pick up some heavier armor, and go fight the the line. I'll kill you (maybe)  later in the round if I'm still alive. You could still hang out in the open though, but make sure you're near a tree.

TL;DR Nerf Tree hitboxes
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: PanPan on December 12, 2012, 08:09:12 pm
(click to show/hide)

5 guys in a row killed by HA :wink:

Didn't we ban that retard?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: BattalGazi on December 12, 2012, 08:18:59 pm
Maybe I should also write here something. Like many people said, HA got tremendously nerfed due to rage polls and rage threads, not because of some flaw in the game mechanics. It was of course very natural that such forum requests ended for the favor of HA haters, as this game is mainly played by 2H / pole players. And what a surprise, these classes are of course the natural prey of skilled HA's as they lack protection like a shield in the middle of the field. However, there are many good ways to kill HA's: you can be a light lancer, you can be a skilled archer/thrower, you can be a skilled pole guy or you can be another HA.

I have been playing as a horse archer for about maybe 1 year. My main character is level 34, with 18/24 stats, 6PD, 4 HA, 172 WPF, 8 Riding, 3 PS. Although the heavy and unbalanced repairs, such as you still need to repair your arrows as if your wpf is for nothing, plus the horse repair ( this is a part of the deal of being a cavalry ), I was still enjoying playing as my prey was my natural prey and my predator was my natural predator.

After the nerfs, I fell deep on the levels of the food chain because of my heavily reduced accuracy, reduced drawing speed and recalculated aiming trajectories. This is such a big frustration for a player with horse archers, and even more for whose level is 34, which translates into a considerable amount of time investment.

I hope that one day the HA gets buffed again back to its natural position and I, and many of my fellow cavalry player friends get back to the game.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: papageorgio on December 12, 2012, 08:59:41 pm
The reason HA sucks is because it does require a lot of skill to hit your target on horseback. I would consider lance cav a counter especially the Kings of KD because we all ride champion coursers. Not too much can out run us. When it comes down to it, it ends up being like a firefight right out of top gun. "To kenny loggins we roll"

We literally herd you like cattle and call right or left so either way you turn, you are shit out of luck. There are very few HA that give me a run for my money. Most of them end up dead on the ground.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on December 12, 2012, 10:14:10 pm
I cry when being HA

I cry when being killed by a HA
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: IR_Kuoin on December 12, 2012, 10:21:30 pm
I cry when being HA

I cry when being killed by a HA

So true Sir Cymro

Trolly Regards
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on December 12, 2012, 10:29:41 pm
.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Bonze on December 12, 2012, 11:14:18 pm
fat idiot broke the thread again

You cant broke a broken thread , its a fact a handful of GK horse my old friendchers rule the server with a very high K/D and all what the thread opener want is the correct ha build.

Torben you sucks,  you are out of date , your golden time is over .Your another loser who cant accept the basic hardcore/grind gaming rules (like the silly thread opener) If you play 24/7,  you dominate the battlefield .If not all ................ look at you  haha
All your shitty Cav threads, all the bawling , the future is GK.
Go,  play stone thrower.

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 12, 2012, 11:41:26 pm
You cant broke a broken thread , its a fact a handful of GK horse my old friendchers rule the server with a very high K/D and all what the thread opener want is the correct ha build.

Torben you sucks,  you are out of date , your golden time is over .Your another loser who cant accept the basic hardcore/grind gaming rules (like the silly thread opener) If you play 24/7,  you dominate the battlefield .If not all ................ look at you  haha
All your shitty Cav threads, all the bawling , the future is GK.
Go,  play stone thrower.

Why would we listen to you, who's signature says
Quote
Got no Balls? Play archer. Got no sex? Play horse archer.

Clearly an idiotic post.

For the record, I did play a lot once, I did dominate the battlefield, won all rounds most of the time, then we got super nerfed, then nerf again, again, again, and again. And then nerfed so more. Clearly you dont understand what grinding is.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 12, 2012, 11:41:51 pm
Bug post
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: IR_Kuoin on December 13, 2012, 01:36:28 am
You saved that shit?

Fuck

I don't delete my forum messages :P
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Joker86 on December 13, 2012, 01:47:08 am
Maybe I should also write here something. Like many people said, HA got tremendously nerfed due to rage polls and rage threads, not because of some flaw in the game mechanics. It was of course very natural that such forum requests ended for the favor of HA haters, as this game is mainly played by 2H / pole players. And what a surprise, these classes are of course the natural prey of skilled HA's as they lack protection like a shield in the middle of the field. However, there are many good ways to kill HA's: you can be a light lancer, you can be a skilled archer/thrower, you can be a skilled pole guy or you can be another HA.

I have been playing as a horse archer for about maybe 1 year. My main character is level 34, with 18/24 stats, 6PD, 4 HA, 172 WPF, 8 Riding, 3 PS. Although the heavy and unbalanced repairs, such as you still need to repair your arrows as if your wpf is for nothing, plus the horse repair ( this is a part of the deal of being a cavalry ), I was still enjoying playing as my prey was my natural prey and my predator was my natural predator.

After the nerfs, I fell deep on the levels of the food chain because of my heavily reduced accuracy, reduced drawing speed and recalculated aiming trajectories. This is such a big frustration for a player with horse archers, and even more for whose level is 34, which translates into a considerable amount of time investment.

I hope that one day the HA gets buffed again back to its natural position and I, and many of my fellow cavalry player friends get back to the game.

I don't know, I don't feel any will to put yourself into the position of the enemy of a HA, and all the frustrating situations you can experience fighting them...  :?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leshma on December 13, 2012, 01:49:05 am
Didn't we ban that retard?

We ban them, they come back...

Since IP bans are out of the question, interesting way to get rid of those previously permabanned is to put time limit on every new account they make. Like trial period. First time permabanned, second account has 500 hours of cRPG playtime before getting permabanned automatically. Third account, 250 hours. Fourth, just 100 hours of game time and so on.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 13, 2012, 01:40:47 pm
We ban them, they come back...

Since IP bans are out of the question, interesting way to get rid of those previously permabanned is to put time limit on every new account they make. Like trial period. First time permabanned, second account has 500 hours of cRPG playtime before getting permabanned automatically. Third account, 250 hours. Fourth, just 100 hours of game time and so on.

You are learning the way of juice fast, young padawan.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 13, 2012, 09:23:36 pm
It'd be nice for devs to post their plans here
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Macropus on December 14, 2012, 09:50:03 am
So, I started playing HA again recently, and now reached lvl 30. What can I say?
1) It's super expensive comparing with efficiency in battle.
2) Aim is really bad, only good for shooting horses in close/middle range
3) HA-melee hybrid is actually not THAT bad. But worse than pure 1h-shield cav.
4) Playing as pure HA (only shooting) is really a pain.
5) But a lot of fun though.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 16, 2012, 09:21:13 pm
So, I started playing HA again recently, and now reached lvl 30. What can I say?
1) It's super expensive comparing with efficiency in battle.
2) Aim is really bad, only good for shooting horses in close/middle range
3) HA-melee hybrid is actually not THAT bad. But worse than pure 1h-shield cav.
4) Playing as pure HA (only shooting) is really a pain.
5) But a lot of fun though.

Thats a good post.

Its true HA is fun. But giving it a small buff wont hurt
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: BattalGazi on December 16, 2012, 09:26:40 pm
All GK support this post.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: El_Infante on December 17, 2012, 04:40:13 am
Horse archer is a crap build. Crap damage, crap accuracy, and very expensive. I hate them all, and I wish all horse my old friendchers burn in flames but I agree they need a big buff. They do more damage bumping than shooting. Sometimes when I get shot with one of them, they do around 5-10% damage per arrow, and I wear light armor.

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 17, 2012, 12:08:56 pm
I am much in favour of this particular HA buff :

+2000% damage against people riding a horse and with a crossbow equipped


 :lol:
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Torben on December 20, 2012, 03:06:29 pm
hm, feels like a few things have been balanced around not being op at lvl 34,  making them merely acceptable at lvl 30.  I guess HA is the most vulnerable class to that solution.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 20, 2012, 08:32:01 pm
hm, feels like a few things have been balanced around not being op at lvl 34,  making them merely acceptable at lvl 30.  I guess HA is the most vulnerable class to that solution.

Even at level 34 its not well balanced, I know for a fact at least 2 level 34+ HAs.

I am much in favour of this particular HA buff :

+2000% damage against people riding a horse and with a crossbow equipped


 :lol:

Joke aside :-P for effectiveness sake, HX is much more accurate, does more damage, doesn't require PD, both light crossbow and steel bolts are cheaper than standar HA equipment, HX can wait till the perfect moment to shoot as the reticule is always the same and with the levels of WP that dedicated HX have their reload is only a bit slower than a HA's (especially with MW crossbow), and all of these can be done at level 30.

I'm not saying nerf HX, not at all, it just shows how badly balanced horse archery is.

Buff HA skill! :D (Maybe not for HX :P)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: BattalGazi on December 20, 2012, 08:35:52 pm
I will post something soon !
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Grumbs on December 20, 2012, 08:45:48 pm
Why do you want to kill off this game? Its not designed for shooting while riding, it won't ever be balanced for you until it drives the main playerbase away to other games

/troll.

Really though, please don't buff HA. Its already way too much of a ranged fest
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Torben on December 20, 2012, 08:48:35 pm
Even at level 34 its not well balanced, I know for a fact at least 2 level 34+ HAs.

Joke aside :-P for effectiveness sake, HX is much more accurate, does more damage, doesn't require PD, both light crossbow and steel bolts are cheaper than standar HA equipment, HX can wait till the perfect moment to shoot as the reticule is always the same and with the levels of WP that dedicated HX have their reload is only a bit slower than a HA's (especially with MW crossbow), and all of these can be done at level 30.

I'm not saying nerf HX, not at all, it just shows how badly balanced horse archery is.

Buff HA skill! :D (Maybe not for HX :P)

Well,  I know of a few guys doing quite well as HAs on high levels,   looking at corsair,  tuonella and our higher level gk friends. 
It seems to need a good playing style adjustment to counter the nerfs and staying effective,  corsair for example has a beautiful style of fast approaches and low velocity turns making him a hard target and  giving him great attack angles whilst keeping the reticule small. 
He's a dancer,  that one : )


Chris, in the end it comes down to us wanting the game to be more deadly again,  aint it? : )
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: BattalGazi on December 20, 2012, 09:17:41 pm
I just tested HA skill's effect on accuracy and speed. I have a main HA char: lvl 34 ( 174 wpf, 4 HA, 6 PD, 8 WM ) and an alt stf: (172 wpf, 0 HA, 6 PD, 8 WM). It looks like the HA skill increases the accuracy as the reticule for my main character was a bit smaller. However, speed reduces dramatically when you add HA skills. My 0 HA skill alt char was drawing much faster than 4 HA character.  I will post the pictures soon.

This shows that HA skill does not work as it should be. Ok it increases accuracy ( not too much ) but reduces drawing speed too much. This is against the nature of the skill.

Such a wpf calculation:

Effective WPF = ( WPF - PD*14 - HA*10)*(1 - 0.01*(effective armor weight))

is extremely ridiculous.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 20, 2012, 09:39:54 pm
Well,  I know of a few guys doing quite well as HAs on high levels,   looking at corsair,  tuonella and our higher level gk friends. 
It seems to need a good playing style adjustment to counter the nerfs and staying effective,  corsair for example has a beautiful style of fast approaches and low velocity turns making him a hard target and  giving him great attack angles whilst keeping the reticule small. 
He's a dancer,  that one : )


Chris, in the end it comes down to us wanting the game to be more deadly again,  aint it? : )

I really enjoyed old deadly cRPG :) not just as HA, it felt nice and fast :D

But its also about balacing, you can do well in the scores if you horse shoot. easy valour on open maps, but thats not the point. The point is that accuracy sucks, damage sucks, skill points suck, upkeep sucks and reload speed sucks, and all of these besides upkeep suck off the horse too.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 22, 2012, 02:02:38 am
i call bullshit, how about this

you pick a horse archer, i pick a melee guy, they go to a server that is setup just like eu_1, best of 3 rounds

if the melee guy that i picked wins 2 rounds you pay him 500k gold, if the horse archer that you picked wins 2 rounds i will pay him 500k gold, your up for a bet or will you chicken out and stop spreading your bullshit ?

what will it be Tindel?

Ok you call bullshit. I understand this part. But the rest of your post makes no fucking sense whatsoever. This will prove what? Are you a fucking child? You want our picked champions to fight to prove a point?
Is this the middle ages? Or are you just left behind in school?

Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Torben on December 23, 2012, 11:55:38 am
Crassus now hoped that his legionaries could hold out until the Parthians ran out of arrows. However, Surena used thousands of camels to resupply his horse archers. Upon realizing this, Crassus dispatched his son Publius with 1,300 Gallic cavalry to drive off the horse archers. The horse archers retreated, and after suffering heavy casualties from arrow fire, his cavalry were confronted by the Parthian cataphracts. The horse archers outflanked the Gauls and cut off their retreat. Publius and his men were slaughtered. Crassus, unaware of his son's fate but realizing Publius was in danger, ordered a general advance. He was confronted with the sight of his son's head on a spear. The Parthian horse archers began to surround the Roman infantry, shooting at them from all directions, while the cataphracts mounted a series of charges that disorganized the Romans. The Parthian onslaught did not cease until nightfall...

this shit has touched me,  and i feel i gotta share it wherever i can.  poor sobs :'/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carrhae#The_battle
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 23, 2012, 01:02:59 pm
i call bullshit, how about this

you pick a horse archer, i pick a melee guy, they go to a server that is setup just like eu_1, best of 3 rounds

if the melee guy that i picked wins 2 rounds you pay him 500k gold, if the horse archer that you picked wins 2 rounds i will pay him 500k gold, your up for a bet or will you chicken out and stop spreading your bullshit ?

what will it be Tindel?
This proves nothing due to the fact that one team can easily win while one or more players aren't contributing whatsoever.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: buba on December 23, 2012, 09:39:30 pm
Why do you want to kill off this game? Its not designed for shooting while riding, it won't ever be balanced for you until it drives the main playerbase away to other games

/troll.

Really though, please don't buff HA. Its already way too much of a ranged fest

Actually for me it was the reason to play a game that's called MOUNT and blade.

Its the only game that does decent mounted combat both with all kinds of hand weapons and ranged.
All three should be in and balanced as best as it can be, so melee, ranged, and their mounted counter parts.

If you think this game is only about inf, which alot more people think it is.
Then why is the game called mount and blade, and not foot and blade?
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Azlanek on December 27, 2012, 01:01:15 pm
Feet and blade  :lol:

Now that'd be funny to see in the game's front cover... especially the picture...

I'm not really sure about balancing HA skill. I still find them pretty annoying if the HA is good.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Rumblood on December 27, 2012, 01:53:56 pm
Mount and Blade. You have an army that you recruit, arm, and (theoretically) balance for a battle. It isn't about individual classes.

Multiplayer. Players tend to think only about what they can do as a solo fighter. They forget about the multi part and that they even have a team.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Nordwolf on December 27, 2012, 01:55:30 pm
Horse archers are basically ultimate kiting archers, which were so much hated and kiting archers on foot were removed.

I think you can do pretty well as HA right now, only thing is that it gets effective only on level 30+, but is it that hard to make it there?

My point is that HA is definetly not underpowered, just look at the possibilities: noone without ranged weapons can do anything to you, you can even bump-shoot shielder (I'd say this is freaky mechanic).

I personally have got a 30lvl 18/21 alt (Victory is a nickname) which has got the same reticle as in this "accuracy" build while riding an arabian on full speed, and I'd say it's just enough. You won't go snipering with HA, would you? Of course not. If you want better reticle - slow down a bit, it's perfectly valid and realistic.

Courser is definetly not a HA horse, but it is HX horse...

Here's a screen of reticle:
(click to show/hide)
And here's what it scores - not a lot of kill, but a lot of score! HA is not useless, but definetely annoying.
(click to show/hide)
^^^ - the reason, why people always say "HA k/d ratio on website is so bad"
lol

Also HA vs HX - HA wins in most cases.

They are not bad, IMO, they are just kiters.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Leshma on December 27, 2012, 02:22:58 pm
I agree, right now HA is in better position than foot archers. Simply because they don't feel arrow weight on themselves because they are mounted. Precision for mobility, fair trade-off imo.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Taser on December 28, 2012, 08:33:49 am
Feet and blade  :lol:

Now that'd be funny to see in the game's front cover... especially the picture...

I'm not really sure about balancing HA skill. I still find them pretty annoying if the HA is good.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 28, 2012, 11:48:04 am
The game is called CRPG(beta),  not mount and blade.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Azlanek on December 28, 2012, 01:50:35 pm
 :rolleyes:

Alright, that might be so if we get really literal. But the core game is still Mount & Blade.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on December 28, 2012, 11:58:09 pm
Horse archers are basically ultimate kiting archers, which were so much hated and kiting archers on foot were removed.

I think you can do pretty well as HA right now, only thing is that it gets effective only on level 30+, but is it that hard to make it there?

My point is that HA is definetly not underpowered, just look at the possibilities: noone without ranged weapons can do anything to you, you can even bump-shoot shielder (I'd say this is freaky mechanic).

I personally have got a 30lvl 18/21 alt (Victory is a nickname) which has got the same reticle as in this "accuracy" build while riding an arabian on full speed, and I'd say it's just enough. You won't go snipering with HA, would you? Of course not. If you want better reticle - slow down a bit, it's perfectly valid and realistic.

Courser is definetly not a HA horse, but it is HX horse...

Here's a screen of reticle:
(click to show/hide)
And here's what it scores - not a lot of kill, but a lot of score! HA is not useless, but definetely annoying.
(click to show/hide)
^^^ - the reason, why people always say "HA k/d ratio on website is so bad"
lol

Also HA vs HX - HA wins in most cases.

They are not bad, IMO, they are just kiters.

I'm on of the oldest HAs in game, i'll tell you know that if you can ride (note, there is n little amount of people that can really ride properly), a champion courser with 7+ riding is the horse to go for. HA dont just fight infantry, also other horsemen. Catching up is useful and well as getting away from other chasing cav and archers (bows can block)

Obviously all HA slow down a bit to shoot infantry at some points, the video is just for representing reticule size at speed, as the whole thread is for the HA skill, which comes into play at speed.

If you put a good HA playing as HX (once the HA gets used to shot speed), HX will win, all the time, more damage, decend retitucle (more HA points possible) no PD and less strength requirements. With MW crossbow and good wpp reload is not bad at all, specially when considering the amount of times a HA reload just to get the reticule at a good size for a shot.

Also, scoring points for the sake of scoring points it is easy, just shoot horses and random arrows at people. That's not the point though.

___

Leshma, on a security point of view horse archers are safer than archers. But the damage is far far inferior, accuracy is horrible and the most important of all for this thread, penalized even when off the horse due to the -10wwp per HA point penalty.

So horse archers right now for a safer play style which not not guaranteed as horses get shot and HA has no defense and any good archer can shoot you pay:

-The need of a horrible grind to usefulness
-Pay much higher upkeep
-Get horrible accuracy even though you are paying precious skill points for a skill that is supposed to make you accurate
-Get penalized on foot, even if you spawn with no horse for choosing to spend skill points on HA skills (and riding along with it) -

Now let's not get me talking about speed bonus not applied to arrows you shoot, but applied to arrows hitting you... Extremely frustrating when chasing cav at the same speed (equivalent to standing still) but doing no damage.

If you take a 15/24 build at level 30 as a foot archer you get enough athletics to outrun most melee and 5PS to actually be very useful at melee if you can fight...

Getting rid of the penalty will make little difference to the reticule at most speeds... When standing still a HA is no different to you than an archer on a roof or behind enemy lines, or with high athletics for that matter...

Only that for the price of using a horse and shooting when moving, right now HA are penalized when doing everything else.

Cris.

Ps. Also, at speed, you can miss a horseman who is directly in-front of you with your horse's head kissing his horse ass... Seems balanced? I don't think so.



Ps2- The last couple of weeks ive been doing stf with str builds as pole and 2h (usually 30/12 with 4ath and 3wm) with good armour and wepaon and LOL, that is OP. Not only you on hit most, it takes many many arrows to kill you. And you are not slow... no trade off there for super human strength... Maybe one day i'll do a proper alt 30/15 to play something OP for a change and cry on the forum cos people can shoot me :P (no of fence intended to any particular player)
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Kafein on December 29, 2012, 12:06:18 am
The game is called CRPG(beta),  not mount and blade.

cRPG is not the game but the mod. The game is called Mount & Blade : Warband, not mount and blade. The mod is called cRPG, not CRPG(beta). Also, you left two spaces behind your comma.

Finally, discussing the name of whatever to try to justify anything is 100% pointless.
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Tindel on December 29, 2012, 02:35:38 am
Im sure the devs and community in beta counterstrike cared alot about half-life when they discussed game balance and development.
AFTER ALL IT IS A HALF-LIFE GAME RIGHT? CS IS JUST A MOD!

Stop using the title of another game(mount and blade) as an argument in a thread about crpg.



Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Cris on January 07, 2013, 10:48:14 pm
Buff HA! :-D
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: BattalGazi on January 07, 2013, 10:50:32 pm
BUFF HA
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: Moncho on January 07, 2013, 10:52:51 pm
Make HAs main weapon their arrows, not their bumps!
Title: Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
Post by: JackieChan on January 07, 2013, 10:57:51 pm
BUFF HA
(click to show/hide)