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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: dontgothere on October 31, 2012, 12:57:38 am

Title: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: dontgothere on October 31, 2012, 12:57:38 am
So they add a new 37 length 1Her but there's still the long-standing issue of any close-range 1H thrust bouncing off the enemy.
Kind of seems like putting the cart before the horse?
It's been a problem for a long time now and I just wonder if it's never going to see a fix.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Vodner on October 31, 2012, 01:16:00 am
The 1h stab was amazing when you could spin it. You were guaranteed a clean hit, and the animation was very fast. The looser sweet spot didn't even come close to making up for that loss.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: TurmoilTom on October 31, 2012, 01:52:28 am
Yeah, even though the Rondel Dagger loses 2 damage when swung I still almost exclusively swing it because of the risk of glancing on a stab.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: dontgothere on October 31, 2012, 08:12:22 pm
It's totally counter-intuitive that 1H weapons specifically should have this problem since they're all the shortest weapons. I can understand point-blank glancing with polearms for the sake of realism, but for 1Hers it just accomplishes nothing sensible; it's only a frustrating nerf.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Opium.dk on October 31, 2012, 08:52:02 pm
Become a 2h/pole hero or xbow/left spam like everyone else.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Kafein on October 31, 2012, 09:59:00 pm
MW KAS, you will be dearly missed... not.

At least not after the stab became a death sentence.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Jarlek on October 31, 2012, 10:07:55 pm
"It doesn't bounce if you just wiggle it".

This is a reply that's just waiting to be posted.

And it's true. You only have to wiggle a bit and your 1h stabs wont bounce.

But so is the same for 2handers and polearms.

Seriously. Facestabbing with this (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=onehanded#!?page=itemdetail&id=5900) and facestabbing with this (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=polearm#!?page=itemdetail&id=105) should NOT have the same difficulty.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on November 01, 2012, 11:35:07 pm
Bump for fairness' sake.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Phew on November 02, 2012, 04:08:31 am
1h should be good at stabbing up close, 2h/pole good for stabbing far away. Right now, 1h is awful for stabbing at any range, and 2h is amazing for stabbing at any range.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on November 03, 2012, 05:50:34 am
I'll bump in the morning.
Oh wait.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Angantyr on November 03, 2012, 11:49:40 am
You cannot stab at close range with a 2h either unless your damage is very high and/ your enemy is unarmored, same goes for 1handers. Try a high PS STR build and see if it makes a difference.

So no, 2h is not amazing at stabbing at any range, quite the contrary. Go make a STF balance or AGI build and see for yourself.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 03, 2012, 12:03:31 pm
fail thread , l2p , kk bye  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on November 03, 2012, 02:56:48 pm
You cannot stab at close range with a 2h either unless your damage is very high and/ your enemy is unarmored, same goes for 1handers. Try a high PS STR build and see if it makes a difference.

So no, 2h is not amazing at stabbing at any range, quite the contrary. Go make a STF balance or AGI build and see for yourself.

I disagree I've been stabbed by 5-6ps players with a 2h at the very very tip of their animation for full damage. Also the same event occurs at point blank. Where is a 1h suposse to be superior? Never currently. It's all in the players skill unlike 2h and polearm.

Your arguement of manual block is invalid. It's easy to do.

In any case 1h sucks. Remove its hit box restrictions so that it only will glance at the end of the swing animation. This will balance the game by giving 1h the facehug advantage, since it will no longer glance at any range and at initial swing. But as it should be, be less effective at longer range(because they are short) and giving 2h and pole the advantage.

That makes sense to me for balance.

In anycase I'm done playing crpg until they improve 1h. Which has been shat on the last 3 patches.

Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Camaris on November 03, 2012, 03:02:35 pm
I disagree I've been stabbed by 5-6ps players with a 2h at the very very tip of their animation for full damage. Also the same event occurs at point blank. Where is a 1h suposse to be superior? Never currently. It's all in the players skill unlike 2h and polearm.

Your arguement of manual block is invalid. It's easy to do.

In any case 1h sucks. Remove its hit box restrictions so that it only will glance at the end of the swing animation. This will balance the game by giving 1h the facehug advantage, since it will no longer glance at any range and at initial swing. But as it should be, be less effective at longer range(because they are short) and giving 2h and pole the advantage.

That makes sense to me for balance.

In anycase I'm done playing crpg until they improve 1h. Which has been shat on the last 3 patches.

I dont think 1h is in a bad state in general.
For example at siege 1h is by far the easiest way to get huge scores.
Take a big shield, take a fast 1h and look with how little to no skill requirement its possible
to get on the valourtrain :p
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Mala on November 04, 2012, 09:12:20 am
i am sure that you mean 2h/polearm
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: zagibu on November 04, 2012, 10:42:18 am
Well, Mala, it of course depends on which kind of equipment you choose. If you consiously nerf yourself by choosing a buckler and wearing rags without a helmet, you are SUPPOSED to die often. And if I'm correct, your first choice of weapon doesn't even have a stab...SO GET OUT OF THIS THREAD!

Just joking. I play 1h without shield and die often because my perfectly aimed stab bounces. It needs a fix.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Lech on November 04, 2012, 11:32:52 am
I dont think 1h is in a bad state in general.
For example at siege 1h is by far the easiest way to get huge scores.
Take a big shield, take a fast 1h and look with how little to no skill requirement its possible
to get on the valourtrain :p

So tell me why i see the same people valor whoring all the time ? It;s not like shield is the best way for getting good score, poles and 2h can get them just as easy if they know how to play. Just look at Rantrex(and his alts), Sraka, Kulin Ban, Vovka, Koldborn, Nokeyboard, Hubert. It's ranged who have it harder when it comes to valor, but for a good reason (on the other side, they have it easy on battle). Or even 1h no shield heroes like  Trollface or Bjord.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: owens on November 05, 2012, 10:38:19 pm
1H is fine shield is an issue.

I would rather have 1 extra PS or 1 extra athletics than five or six shield skill.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: camperus on November 06, 2012, 12:18:09 am
1h stab is tricky, sometimes u do one inesperately, bouncing, and u get a free hit without any chance of block. I think it should have a bit more of lenght at least. Also shield and weapon master is a waste of points  :P
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 06, 2012, 12:19:39 am
1h stab is tricky, sometimes u do one inesperately, bouncing, and u get a free hit without any chance of block. I think it should have a bit more of lenght at least. Also shield and weapon master is a waste of points  :P
Wat
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: camperus on November 06, 2012, 12:38:40 am
Wat
Sorry my fault, i was talking about siegue
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Moncho on November 06, 2012, 12:54:24 am
If you feel like the 1h thrust is not good enough, there are plenty of non stabby 1hers that are awesome (spamitars, ...daos, cleavers, hammers, picks, ...). I personally prefer these simply because a badly placed stab means you are almost certainly dead, especially with no IF and low str as I usually have. But that is what your shield is there for

And shield 1h in a bad place? Have not thought so for quite a while. For duelling you are better off without the shield (at least I prefer to duel without shield) but shielders have their place, it is not cutting through enemies, but pushing positions and holding them (until a f·$%&ng maul comes around ofc, but then footwork + spam is your friend).
Shielders should be the first ones on ladders, the first and last on the flag. the vanguard, but not the main damage dealers... try to realise what your class is good at instead of trying to be an all round machine, nooone is it
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 06, 2012, 01:24:20 am
So tell me why i see the same people valor whoring all the time ? It;s not like shield is the best way for getting good score, poles and 2h can get them just as easy if they know how to play. Just look at Rantrex(and his alts), Sraka, Kulin Ban, Vovka, Koldborn, Nokeyboard, Hubert. It's ranged who have it harder when it comes to valor, but for a good reason (on the other side, they have it easy on battle). Or even 1h no shield heroes like  Trollface or Bjord.
dude shielder is eazyest way to get high score ... period. stating that goodplayers of other classes can get high scores to is irrelevant. ive been able to valour whore for hours on my shielder alt on siege, on my main i have to actually kill alot to get high valour, as shielder i can just hold upmy shield inthe crowd and hit from time to time. and be top scorer.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 06, 2012, 01:28:48 am
2 hands get a uber fast stab that can be slide in like a lightsaber if you miss your target.

1h is harder stab to pull off

PERIOD

there's a reason why the long espada eslanova is the msot sold 1h on the market...It's unfair and it needs to be reworked
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: TurmoilTom on November 06, 2012, 01:33:19 am
dude shielder is eazyest way to get high score ... period. stating that goodplayers of other classes can get high scores to is irrelevant. ive been able to valour whore for hours on my shielder alt on siege, on my main i have to actually kill alot to get high valour, as shielder i can just hold upmy shield inthe crowd and hit from time to time. and be top scorer.

That's the shield you're talking about. We're talking about the actual weapon.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 06, 2012, 02:39:13 pm
1 handed stabs are great closerange insta hitters if u know how to use it... they just dont function well for farstabbing. i have no trouble atall fighting with a 1 hander , dont see problem
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: IR_Kuoin on November 06, 2012, 02:41:56 pm
Even with a MW Long Espada 31 pierce and 6 - 7 athl. the stab almost glances every time, even if my opponent got leather 30 +- armor.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Vibe on November 06, 2012, 02:46:39 pm
Yep, this is a problem since forever. Now with the spin nerf this has gotten A LOT worse for 1h. 6PS slashes versus any kind of plate/loomed heavy armor is a glance fest, so the only option is to stab. Except stab sux even more. Rondel dagger with 30 pierce glances on stabs as well. 1h should have an advantage for stabbing up close.

Also are we ever going to see less spin rate reduction for shorter/lighter weapons?
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 06, 2012, 02:56:32 pm
i have 73 bodyarmor when im on heavyest gear, what you talk about now is pretty biased, i get killed by 1 handers the most... yes even stabby weaps
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Gurnisson on November 06, 2012, 02:57:53 pm
6PS slashes versus any kind of plate/loomed heavy armor is a glance fest

5 ps, 150 wpf and a non-loomed knobbed mace (24b) or elite scimitar (31c) and I bounce once in a blue moon. Do your positioning and use short holds and you shouldn't have any problem. Also, I don't have problem stabbing with the medium/high damaging one-handers. I usually don't stab a lot with 1Hs with less than 22-23 pierce damage, because I don't expect any useable damage output anyway.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Kafein on November 06, 2012, 03:02:44 pm
If you don't attack when outnumbered, you're toast, no matter your equipment setup.

Shields have the advantage of blocking multiple directions. But they have the disadvantage of forcing you to use weapons that have a much smaller reach, much weaker damage, good speed except for the fact that the terrible animations don't allow you to skip the whole animation like with polearms and 2h, effectively making 1h slower to hit and very hard to use when your enemies sidestep a lot.

5 ps, 150 wpf and a non-loomed knobbed mace (24b) or elite scimitar (31c) and I bounce once in a blue moon. Do your positioning and use short holds and you shouldn't have any problem. Also, I don't have problem stabbing with the medium/high damaging one-handers. I usually don't stab a lot with 1Hs with less than 22-23 pierce damage, because I don't expect any useable damage output anyway.

Holding works, but hinders your duel abilities a lot, make you predictable and very weak to spam. Besides, if you can't down most people with 2 or 3 swings tops, 1 vs many is going to be extremely difficult.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Gurnisson on November 06, 2012, 03:05:28 pm
Holding works, but hinders your duel abilities a lot, make you predictable and very weak to spam.

Do your positioning and use short holds and you shouldn't have any problem.

Short holds is the name of the game. Often enough for the enemy to take down their block, not slow enough to let them spam you, at least not with left swing, stabs or overheads. I'm more careful with holding the slower right swing, but I mostly use it for the range game anyway.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 06, 2012, 03:12:28 pm
well , i enjoy fighting with a 1 hander alot. it takes some learning and adjusting. + 1 handed blunts are pretty op. like stated before if you dont know what youre doing you will glance alot on stabs.. but that dousnt mean they cant be utilized effectivly it just means you are used to old mechanics... also what gurni said, i see alot of 1 handers feight attacks... instead of holdand wiggle... hold wiggle attacks is the way to go . note that down :)
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Jarlek on November 06, 2012, 03:17:22 pm
5 ps, 150 wpf and a non-loomed knobbed mace (24b) or elite scimitar (31c) and I bounce once in a blue moon. Do your positioning and use short holds and you shouldn't have any problem. Also, I don't have problem stabbing with the medium/high damaging one-handers. I usually don't stab a lot with 1Hs with less than 22-23 pierce damage, because I don't expect any useable damage output anyway.
That there is also part of the problem. Many 1handers have stab damage that are worse than most 2handed swords. I just counted and there are exactly 5 1handed swords over 5k that has 25 or more stab damage, 2 of them being short swords.

The average 1h stab is around 24/25 damage, the same stab damage of greatswords.

Can you really say that's balanced?
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Kafein on November 06, 2012, 03:39:04 pm
Short holds is the name of the game. Often enough for the enemy to take down their block, not slow enough to let them spam you, at least not with left swing, stabs or overheads. I'm more careful with holding the slower right swing, but I mostly use it for the range game anyway.

Against true spam such as hiltslashing, even holding during the shortest possible time isn't going to work. Then again, not much "works" against hiltslashing except blocking twice or more.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Zanze on November 06, 2012, 03:50:02 pm
Short Sword, 26c slash, 26p thrust. 6 PS, 100 wpf. I never glanced on any hit ever(Unless I fought Para_Kutt in his full milanese on a wall and couldn't move enough into the hit). Did have 6 ath and abused the hell out of speed bonus for hits on tin cans however.

Stop whining about the stabs and overhead needing fixes. The attack isn't the problem, your lack of footwork is. Move into your hits, don't stab at point blank, aim for the head, aim for the feet, turn some more. Etc.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Kafein on November 06, 2012, 04:17:09 pm
Short Sword, 26c slash, 26p thrust. 6 PS, 100 wpf. I never glanced on any hit ever(Unless I fought Para_Kutt in his full milanese on a wall and couldn't move enough into the hit). Did have 6 ath and abused the hell out of speed bonus for hits on tin cans however.

Stop whining about the stabs and overhead needing fixes. The attack isn't the problem, your lack of footwork is. Move into your hits, don't stab at point blank, aim for the head, aim for the feet, turn some more. Etc.

The short sword is, well, short. Hitting with the tip of the weapon gives a significant damage increase for 1h, or at least that's how it feels like. Also, I guess you are not using a lot of armor.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 06, 2012, 05:46:07 pm
Stop blaberring on how your uber good and with only 5 ps you dont glance and how you know everything about every class. This is not the point!!

how is it fair that, like you say, if you do this or that you can get your 1h stab in and when a 2h fucks up his stab he can just slide it in?? One doesnt accept mistakes, one is too forgiving!!

Good for you but it's still unfair how the 2h stab is superior to 1h. you cant deny no matter how uber pro you are. stop being douches

Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Vodner on November 06, 2012, 05:55:49 pm
Short Sword, 26c slash, 26p thrust. 6 PS, 100 wpf. I never glanced on any hit ever(Unless I fought Para_Kutt in his full milanese on a wall and couldn't move enough into the hit). Did have 6 ath and abused the hell out of speed bonus for hits on tin cans however.

Stop whining about the stabs and overhead needing fixes. The attack isn't the problem, your lack of footwork is. Move into your hits, don't stab at point blank, aim for the head, aim for the feet, turn some more. Etc.
Fighting somebody with 7-8 ath who is constantly moving backwards and strafing makes is nearly impossible to land a solid stab.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Phew on November 06, 2012, 06:23:04 pm
This topic isn't whether 1h/shield players can or can't get valor, or whether a 1h will glance on sideswings, it's a debate on why 1h thrust has to suck. And here, 'suck' is in the context of comparison to the 2h thrust. If 2h can deliver lightning-fast stabs for full damage from 0m to 2m, why shouldn't 1h be able to land a thrust on someone two feet away without it bouncing?

I made a 2h STF char with a longsword, and only did thrusts. I was unable to find a situation where the thrust wasn't the ideal attack. Fighting cavalry, other 2h, facehugging shielders; it was easy to land full-damage thrusts in every situation. Meanwhile, with my loomed Knightly Arming Sword on my main, every thrust is a gamble. Between the confusing hitbox, large delay, and tiny sweet spot, it's just not worth the risk.

Which is a shame, since there are some great thrusting 1h weapons that are rendered nearly useless by these limitations (+3 long espada may be the most worthless +3 item on the marketplace).
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on November 06, 2012, 07:01:24 pm
Which is a shame, since there are some great thrusting 1h weapons that are rendered nearly useless by these limitations (+3 long espada may be the most worthless +3 item on the marketplace).
Sadly, I own one of these swords, and I'm lucky to pull of a chain of stabs before I die to a glance.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Jarlek on November 06, 2012, 07:18:20 pm
This topic isn't whether 1h/shield players can or can't get valor, or whether a 1h will glance on sideswings, it's a debate on why 1h thrust has to suck. And here, 'suck' is in the context of comparison to the 2h thrust. If 2h can deliver lightning-fast stabs for full damage from 0m to 2m, why shouldn't 1h be able to land a thrust on someone two feet away without it bouncing?

I made a 2h STF char with a longsword, and only did thrusts. I was unable to find a situation where the thrust wasn't the ideal attack. Fighting cavalry, other 2h, facehugging shielders; it was easy to land full-damage thrusts in every situation. Meanwhile, with my loomed Knightly Arming Sword on my main, every thrust is a gamble. Between the confusing hitbox, large delay, and tiny sweet spot, it's just not worth the risk.

Which is a shame, since there are some great thrusting 1h weapons that are rendered nearly useless by these limitations (+3 long espada may be the most worthless +3 item on the marketplace).
Posted this on page 1. Sad to see it was ignored.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Phew on November 06, 2012, 09:40:33 pm
Posted this on page 1. Sad to see it was ignored.
(click to show/hide)

It wasn't ignored, I was agreeing with you. There should be no circumstance whereby a 37 length weapon is too close to stab with, but not too close for a 120+ length weapon to stab with. Yet if you asked me "an enemy is leghumping you, and you have to stab him. What is your weapon of choice?", I would say German Greatsword. My answer would be the same if the enemy was 2m away. There's something wrong with that.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Ujin on November 06, 2012, 09:44:25 pm
Stop blaberring on how your uber good and with only 5 ps you dont glance and how you know everything about every class. This is not the point!!

how is it fair that, like you say, if you do this or that you can get your 1h stab in and when a 2h fucks up his stab he can just slide it in?? One doesnt accept mistakes, one is too forgiving!!

Good for you but it's still unfair how the 2h stab is superior to 1h. you cant deny no matter how uber pro you are. stop being douches
This. Stop showing off your e-penises , the 1h stab needs some love, period.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Torben on November 06, 2012, 09:54:05 pm
a pike is more deadly at close range than a 1h,  ha!
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 06, 2012, 09:54:50 pm
This. Stop showing off your e-penises , the 1h stab needs some love, period.

says all the biased 1 handers... this thread has turned from a discussion about the 1handed stab, into a gathering of people compairing it to the 2 handed stab. witch in theyr eyes is godly... i  can tell you this people who turn stab with 2 hander can eazely be counter by a 1hander left swing or even if u move into it with abit of armor on it will glance and u get free hit. tbh non of the players i consider to be some of the best in crpg have been complaining about 1 handers.. next up there will be 1 handers in here who say oh u know 1 handed overhead is so useless to... common.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Vodner on November 06, 2012, 10:24:09 pm
says all the biased 1 handers... this thread has turned from a discussion about the 1handed stab, into a gathering of people compairing it to the 2 handed stab. witch in theyr eyes is godly... i  can tell you this people who turn stab with 2 hander can eazely be counter by a 1hander left swing or even if u move into it with abit of armor on it will glance and u get free hit. tbh non of the players i consider to be some of the best in crpg have been complaining about 1 handers.. next up there will be 1 handers in here who say oh u know 1 handed overhead is so useless to... common.
I play more 2h than I do 1h. It is infinitely easier to land a solid 2h stab, even at very close range.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 06, 2012, 10:26:13 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: brockssn on November 06, 2012, 10:44:25 pm
I posted this today as well and just saw this thread. My Long Espada glances like a mofo and u die because of it... This stab should not glance!
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Ujin on November 06, 2012, 11:22:21 pm
says all the biased 1 handers... this thread has turned from a discussion about the 1handed stab, into a gathering of people compairing it to the 2 handed stab. witch in theyr eyes is godly... i  can tell you this people who turn stab with 2 hander can eazely be counter by a 1hander left swing or even if u move into it with abit of armor on it will glance and u get free hit. tbh non of the players i consider to be some of the best in crpg have been complaining about 1 handers.. next up there will be 1 handers in here who say oh u know 1 handed overhead is so useless to... common.
I don't give a crap who you consider the best or how good you are , we're talking about a weapon animation in this topic.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on November 07, 2012, 02:38:40 am
Dev feedback would be greatly appreciated, even if it's unlikely.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Kafein on November 07, 2012, 03:02:53 am
Even if what rufio says is honest, it doesn't actually matter. How many of the players he considers to be good are only able to play with a weapon three times longer than that of their opponent ? How many would defeat me sickle vs sickle in a standing naked peasant fight like real men and women do ?


Both the 2h and the pole stabs have become godlike ever since the turn nerf patch, because they connect earlier, and do full damage at retardedly short ranges. They also are very lightly punished by the actual turn nerf, as moving a long weapon around makes it's tip cover a lot bigger area than with a shorter weapon. Also, one handers having different animations and faster swing speeds, the time window during which you can turn in order to hit whatever human mosquito you had in front of you during the last picosecond is much shorter too, meaning an even smaller area can be reached by the exact same turnstab sweep-like motion. Finally, one handers having weak damage stats and animation peculiarities (or rather, 1h animations are working as they should, it's the others that are super permissive), they glance on stab all-the-time. I'm really happy I've given up using stab-able one handers, even though I had one for one year and a half.


Really, the best onehanders now are picks, axes, maces, scimitars and cleavers. Because onehanders are quite well balanced internally, each of these has it's pros and cons. Straight swords ? All shit. In virtually any situation a stabless sword will do better.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on November 07, 2012, 04:01:43 am
Tonight, my stab glanced on a guy with 16 body armor.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on November 07, 2012, 06:50:20 pm
Pro glancer here.

I'm so good I've gotten warhammers to glance with 8ps using an overhead.

Please fix 1h or nerf everyone else to 1h animation.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Vibe on November 08, 2012, 08:39:01 am
says all the biased 1 handers... this thread has turned from a discussion about the 1handed stab, into a gathering of people compairing it to the 2 handed stab. witch in theyr eyes is godly... i  can tell you this people who turn stab with 2 hander can eazely be counter by a 1hander left swing or even if u move into it with abit of armor on it will glance and u get free hit. tbh non of the players i consider to be some of the best in crpg have been complaining about 1 handers.. next up there will be 1 handers in here who say oh u know 1 handed overhead is so useless to... common.

While I am a 1h/shielder this gen, I've been saying 1h stab is fucked since forever, even when I was a 2h or pole or cav. That's because 1h stab is fucked. Just that "short hold (& wiggle)" you and Gurni keep talking about is not enough to be sure that 1h stab won't bounce/glance. Most of the times you'll also need the speed bonus and correct distance for it to not bounce. Very easy to see if you try to facehug stab a plate user (with a 1h that has below 27-28p for example).

No one is saying 1h stabs are impossible to pull. We're saying it should be more reliable. Especially up close, where the 1h should have an advantage due to it's shorter length. Right now it's equally easy to stab up close with a 2h or pole. (if not easier at times due to higher damage).

Also talking about bias when you're a lvl 35 2hander yourself is pretty lol.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 08, 2012, 08:51:52 am
im just stating my oppinion, i have no prob with 1 hander stabs, it might be annoying when somone is pressing S key you glance because of reach, but the close stabs are op when executed right. but ye maybe i am biased
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Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Everkistus on November 08, 2012, 09:00:00 am
I always use 3-directional 1h weps because the 1h stab is so unreliable.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Pentecost on November 08, 2012, 09:24:13 am
Differences of opinion aside, does anyone have any possible solutions--things that could be tried in order to make the one-hand stab more useful? The best fixes I can think of would be either:

1.) to tie turn speed to a combination of weapon weight and weapon length, which would allow one-hand players stab in the fashion they once did while preventing mauls and pikes from spinning like a top

OR

2.) to rework the way speed bonus applies to the 1h animations

Can any of you think of something relatively simple aside from these?
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rufio on November 08, 2012, 09:31:44 am
well if 1 handed stab becomes eazy to use... that would be awesome!!!
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Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Molly on November 08, 2012, 09:48:20 am
im just stating my oppinion, i have no prob with 1 hander stabs, it might be annoying when somone is pressing S key you glance because of reach, but the close stabs are op when executed right. [...]
This.

Dunno, everybody knows that I pretty much suck at this game and of lately I barely play but I never had a problem with the 1h-stab. Maybe I am just lucky or a natural when it comes to those stabs, dunno. They seem fine to me.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Smoothrich on November 08, 2012, 09:51:57 am
says all the biased 1 handers... this thread has turned from a discussion about the 1handed stab, into a gathering of people compairing it to the 2 handed stab. witch in theyr eyes is godly... i  can tell you this people who turn stab with 2 hander can eazely be counter by a 1hander left swing or even if u move into it with abit of armor on it will glance and u get free hit. tbh non of the players i consider to be some of the best in crpg have been complaining about 1 handers.. next up there will be 1 handers in here who say oh u know 1 handed overhead is so useless to... common.

If you post saying 1handers are in fact NOT underpowered pieces of shit, but are actually pretty easy to use effectively if you learn what you're doing + shield for survivability making them a great melee class on par with 2handers and polearms (with easiest valor), you will get like 10 -1's immediately from people with little to no explanation. 

I don't think 1handers are OP or anything but they are balanced, and when people ignore the fact that you can use a shield with weapons in regards to weapon balance, you are really missing the entire point of having a shield.  You get perfect positioning for offensive attacks, escaping dire situations, and owning 1 vs 6s with little to no reactions or coordination but just slamming RMB and spamming held left swings in between.

I think most people complaining about 1hand thrusts, saying "right swing always glances" and saying "lol i r8p as 2hander EZ mode buff shielders" are usually just unskilled players with a poor perspective of different classes and playstyles.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Vibe on November 08, 2012, 09:59:39 am
If you post saying 1handers are in fact NOT underpowered pieces of shit, but are actually pretty easy to use effectively if you learn what you're doing + shield for survivability making them a great melee class on par with 2handers and polearms (with easiest valor), you will get like 10 -1's immediately from people with little to no explanation. 

I don't think 1handers are OP or anything but they are balanced, and when people ignore the fact that you can use a shield with weapons in regards to weapon balance, you are really missing the entire point of having a shield.  You get perfect positioning for offensive attacks, escaping dire situations, and owning 1 vs 6s with little to no reactions or coordination but just slamming RMB and spamming held left swings in between.

I think most people complaining about 1hand thrusts, saying "right swing always glances" and saying "lol i r8p as 2hander EZ mode buff shielders" are usually just unskilled players with a poor perspective of different classes and playstyles.

This wasn't a discussion about 1h/2h balance anyway and had little to do with what you're saying in your stupid post.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Smoothrich on November 08, 2012, 10:28:29 am
The thread like 4 pages saying that the 1hand thrust is impossible to use and all 1handers need major buffs, and when one guy says "hey when I play my 1hander I do pretty good the stab is just like other weapons stabs but needs extra practice" he got dumped on with hate.

Basically there is nothing to "fix" about the 1hand thrust except the OP needs to practice his footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making on what attacks to use and when.  Hell if you find the thrust to just not work for your playstyle, get a scimitar or steel pick or something and enjoy your pocket bec or katana at 100+ speed and learn to abuse left swings at facehug and right swings at range instead.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Vibe on November 08, 2012, 10:37:03 am
The thread like 4 pages saying that the 1hand thrust is impossible to use and all 1handers need major buffs, and when one guy says "hey when I play my 1hander I do pretty good the stab is just like other weapons stabs but needs extra practice" he got dumped on with hate.

Basically there is nothing to "fix" about the 1hand thrust except the OP needs to practice his footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making on what attacks to use and when.  Hell if you find the thrust to just not work for your playstyle, get a scimitar or steel pick or something and enjoy your pocket bec or katana at 100+ speed and learn to abuse left swings at facehug and right swings at range instead.

I believe what most of the guys posting meant was that 1h stab is a lot less reliable compared to a 2h (or pole) stab. It bounces a lot more early in the animation and at the end of the animation. Yes it can be pulled off by good footwork, distance, timing and a hold. But 2h's stab is a lot more reliable and that is known to anyone who has a slightest clue about what is going on in this game.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Molly on November 08, 2012, 10:58:07 am
I believe what most of the guys posting meant was that 1h stab is a lot less reliable compared to a 2h (or pole) stab. It bounces a lot more early in the animation and at the end of the animation. Yes it can be pulled off by good footwork, distance, timing and a hold. But 2h's stab is a lot more reliable and that is known to anyone who has a slightest clue about what is going on in this game.
This is certainly correct but let's look at it from this point of view:

There is a lot more mass behind a 2h or pole which is a pretty decent explanation for a lot less massive weapon to bounce on armor during its stab when not hit in the sweetspot.
I'm at the end of my 4th gen "1h w/o" and the stab is an awesome part of the arsenal offered by 1h-weapons but it's certainly not as spammy and no-brain as the 2h/pole-stabs... no doubt about that. 1h needs a bit more brain than the other weapons if you don't wanna spam the left-swing but try yourself on a more versatile and "nice-to-look-at" playstyle.

Making the stab "easy" would just remove overhead and right swing from a lot of people using the 1h weaponary.

LEAVE IT DEMANDING AND ENJOYABLE!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Haboe on November 08, 2012, 11:24:16 am
Get some practice, the rondel dagger (one direction stab wep) works fine with the stabs.

Here a vid of the rondel dagger vs a tincan (i have only 6 PS)


Clean kill, no bounce despite his armor.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Molly on November 08, 2012, 12:03:00 pm
Poor Vince  :cry:
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Pentecost on November 08, 2012, 12:49:46 pm
The thread like 4 pages saying that the 1hand thrust is impossible to use and all 1handers need major buffs, and when one guy says "hey when I play my 1hander I do pretty good the stab is just like other weapons stabs but needs extra practice" he got dumped on with hate.

Smoothrich, did you not see his first post in this thread (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/still-no-fix-for-close-range-1h-thrust-bounces/msg645740/#msg645740)? If he wanted to give people the impression that he was coming here to offer an informed opinion grounded in facts in the way that Tydeus does and not transparently trying to troll or lobby, people would not be responding to his posts in the way that they did.


Basically there is nothing to "fix" about the 1hand thrust except the OP needs to practice his footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making on what attacks to use and when.

This is your position. I agree with you that some of the bounces being reported here are probably due to poor execution or other faults on the part of the person wielding the weapon rather than the weapon itself, however

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Saulcanner, who is the #1 duelist on NA, a recognized authority on every kind of melee weapon, and almost certainly one of the best players not only in cRPG but all of Warband, someone who unquestionably has very good footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making, is saying that recent changes have done something to one-handed stabs to make them less viable than they previously were. I don't think you should just dismiss that out of hand.

I have no problem if you feel what everyone else is saying is nonsense--you are a superb player yourself, and you have proven on more than one occasion that you indeed have the right to tell most of the playerbase that the problems they are whining about will go away if they adapt and get better at the game--but you should at least consider what he is saying. Writing him off along with the rest of us is the Internet Swords and Horses equivalent of saying that Roger Ebert's critique of a particular movie is irrelevant because it is only an opinion and therefore no better than anyone else's opinion on the same movie, despite the fact that Roger Ebert is actually informed about the subject and your average theatergoer is not.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 08, 2012, 12:53:22 pm
After 5 pages you havnt understood it's about the thrust itself compared to others thrust? Even a pike is more reliable close range then a 1h stab sword!

Haboe :

1 : that dagger is utlra fast and hard to see

2 : vincent kicked therefore he couldnt down block
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Haboe on November 08, 2012, 01:05:17 pm
I only spoke for the rondel dagger.
In a few days i will finish my vid on the rondel dagger, ill show you its stab is good.

As a 1hander using a nordic champ sword i can safely say that indeed 1h stabs are hard to pull off, and come with the great risk of missing, bouncing off or being block-stunned. I only use it when i get the opportunity to safely land it, usually when someone kicks a lot.


EDIT:
Your second argument is BS... Yes he kicked, you are supposed to stab someone when he kicks, thats one of the best parts about stabbing...
The video shows that even vs a tincan if your footwork is decent you can land a stab with a dagger, nothing more.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: rustyspoon on November 08, 2012, 01:44:50 pm
1h attacks have always been less reliable than 2h/poles. That's because of how glancing is calculated in this game. If the initial armor reduction brings your damage close to zero, you will glance. 1h weapons (especially swords) have a lot less initial damage than 2h/poles. Because of that, any kind of damage reduction (negative speed bonus, hitting early in the animation, etc) has a HUGE impact on 1h attacks. That's why MW weapons are such a big deal to 1h's. Anything that can help you overcome the possibility of a glance is big. That's also why as a 1-hander you need to rely on good footwork and held attacks.

The more damage your weapon does, the sloppier you can be in your gameplay due to the reduced chance of glancing.

As far as stabs go, you aren't going to get full damage bonus until almost the middle of the animation. Due to 1h's being short and having a really fast animation you need to have really good positioning and footwork to be able to consistently land stabs. It was made even harder after the change.

Previously 1h's glanced at short range. Now they glance at short and long range.

1h's have always been my favorite "class" in this game. They are much more interesting than the others due to their specialized animations. But they are overall inferior to the other weapon types and that's entirely due to their increased chance of glancing. 1h's SHOULD do less damage than 2h/poles, but that doesn't mean they should have a much higher chance of glancing.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Smoothrich on November 08, 2012, 05:40:27 pm
Saulcanner, who is the #1 duelist on NA, a recognized authority on every kind of melee weapon, and almost certainly one of the best players not only in cRPG but all of Warband, someone who unquestionably has very good footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making, is saying that recent changes have done something to one-handed stabs to make them less viable than they previously were. I don't think you should just dismiss that out of hand.

Warband isn't balanced around duels.  1handers have lower damage because they have shields, lower thrust damage or less mobility means more glances if you mess up a thrust.  Its balanced.  Thrust  starts a little to the right of your model too, but its hardly a problem.  I've played 1hander plenty and rarely glanced, and the shield is is worth 20 lolstabs in almost every battle/siege scenario except maybe "honor dueling" agi builds or lance cav.. more balance.

Espadas do like 30 fucking pierce on thrusts, more than any 2hander.  People like Hospitaller_Cain used to nearly 1 shot me with stabs and never glanced once for nearly a year of thrust abusing.  If you want a facehug attack as a shielder and think a stab would glance, there's no reason not to left swing instead anyways (held overhead good too).  Stab needs more space in comparison, but both are very fast and powerful animations.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Zanze on November 08, 2012, 06:04:21 pm
People like Hospitaller_Cain used to nearly 1 shot me with stabs and never glanced once for nearly a year of thrust abusing.  If you want a facehug attack as a shielder and think a stab would glance, there's no reason not to left swing instead anyways (held overhead good too).  Stab needs more space in comparison, but both are very fast and powerful animations.

This.

People just whine because they cant just lolstab as they do with 2h's or awlpikes. 1h stab is fine honestly, heavens forbid skill is somewhat required in a skill based game.

I'll repeat what I did in my last post, and probably get another infinite number of -'s. When stabbing, use proper footwork or else it will glance. If you are face hugging as many 1h's are prone to do when they stab, don't stab. Highlighting the "use proper footwork" part of that.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Kafein on November 08, 2012, 06:19:40 pm
This.

People just whine because they cant just lolstab as they do with 2h's or awlpikes. 1h stab is fine honestly, heavens forbid skill is somewhat required in a skill based game.

I'll repeat what I did in my last post, and probably get another infinite number of -'s. When stabbing, use proper footwork or else it will glance. If you are face hugging as many 1h's are prone to do when they stab, don't stab. Highlighting the "use proper footwork" part of that.

Problem is, a shield and 1h weapon only make one thing easier : you don't have to do the directional blocking yourself. Everything else is harder. You need more hits to kill, have less reach and need to block much more frequently, slower movement, can't turn into swings as much (and can't let them go either), you can only block sideswings from people in front of you, the stab is hard to land, the overhead is hard to land, the right swing is slow, the left swing is somewhat short and your attacks are delayed after blocking (which also slows down feints). In addition, your whole setup can go up to 3 slots (using a shield that can compensate for the aforementioned blocking angle loss is a good reason).


In 2010 when the game was fresh and nobody knew how to block this was fine.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on November 08, 2012, 06:31:17 pm
Problem is, a shield and 1h weapon only make one thing easier : you don't have to do the directional blocking yourself. Everything else is harder. You need more hits to kill, have less reach and need to block much more frequently, slower movement, can't turn into swings as much (and can't let them go either), you can only block sideswings from people in front of you, the stab is hard to land, the overhead is hard to land, the right swing is slow, the left swing is somewhat short and your attacks are delayed after blocking (which also slows down feints). In addition, your whole setup can go up to 3 slots (using a shield that can compensate for the aforementioned blocking angle loss is a good reason).


In 2010 when the game was fresh and nobody knew how to block this was fine.

Agrees.

Don't forget kick blocking, crushthrough, axes, and hiltslashing negate the value of a shield.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Kafein on November 08, 2012, 07:08:12 pm
Agrees.

Don't forget kick blocking, crushthrough, axes, and hiltslashing negate the value of a shield.

I'd say crushthrough affects all classes equally, even though shielders have a natural weakness to it due to slower movement and shorter reach, but I completely forgot the other things which really deserve to be added.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Tzar on November 08, 2012, 07:13:04 pm
1h´s have thrust attacks  :?:  :? wtf.....
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: brockssn on November 08, 2012, 08:33:30 pm
anyone who says 1h stabs are fine or balanced has not played one in a WHILE.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Haboe on November 08, 2012, 11:26:47 pm
There, good 1h stab. Only the rondel dagger seems this easy to stab with, other 1h's can use a buff in stabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp8nQp-WpPA&feature=plcp
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on November 09, 2012, 06:37:59 pm
There, good 1h stab. Only the rondel dagger seems this easy to stab with, other 1h's can use a buff in stabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp8nQp-WpPA&feature=plcp
He still glances on a guy with light armor.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Haboe on November 09, 2012, 06:45:56 pm
Yes, believe me, with terrible timing/ footwork you can glance with a flamberge on a peasant.

The guy you pointed out on the other  thread at 1:11 is wearing heraldic i think ;)
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Jarlek on November 09, 2012, 06:50:10 pm
Yes, believe me, with terrible timing/ footwork you can glance with a flamberge on a peasant.

The guy you pointed out on the other  thread at 1:11 is wearing heraldic i think ;)
You talking about the guy who slowly walks up the stairs, right? And you hit him in the back while running towards him?

Yeah, he has mail armour.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on November 09, 2012, 09:52:16 pm
You talking about the guy who slowly walks up the stairs, right? And you hit him in the back while running towards him?

Yeah, he has mail armour.
Looked like a tunic when I had it on low quality. Oops.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: TurmoilTom on November 09, 2012, 10:01:41 pm
The fact that he had mail doesn't change the fact that if he used a swing it definitely wouldn't have glanced.
Title: Re: Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?
Post by: dontgothere on November 10, 2012, 09:49:40 pm
So "you don't know footwork and how to wiggle your mouse" is supposed to be a legitimate response to "it doesn't make sense that point-blank thrusts auto-bounce with super short range thrust-focused weapons"?
oh eu